commonplaces
topics
862 Matching Annotations
- Jan 2016
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classics.mit.edu classics.mit.edu
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promise to make another and better oration, equal in length and entirely new, on the same subject
the challenge
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I could make another speech as good as that of Lysias, and different
Is Socrates contending for the title of great rhetorician?
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Sappho the fair
Sappho, female poet and rhetor
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Ancient sages, men and women, who have spoken and written of these things, would rise up in judgment against me, if out of complaisance I assented to you.
acknowledging women as rhetors
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he repeated himself two or three times, either from want of words or from want of pains; and also, he appeared to me ostentatiously to exult in showing how well he could say the same thing in two or three ways.
what Socrates finds wrong in Lysias' text
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there are many more non-lovers than lovers; and if you choose the best of the lovers, you will not have many to choose from; but if from the non-lovers, the choice will be larger
A bigger pool to choose from, but not necessarily a better one.
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lovers repent of the kindnesses which they have shown when their passion ceases, but to the non-lovers who are free and not under any compulsion, no time of repentance ever comes; for they confer their benefits according to the measure of their ability, in the way which is most conducive to their own interest.
still true in relationships today
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Soc.
Socrates continually calls Phaedrus out, just tell the truth Phaedrus and stop fooling around.
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Will you go on?
Enough already Socrates; do you want to hear about it or not?
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the greatest rhetorician of the age
Phaedrus calls Lysias "the greatest rhetorician of the age" while speaking to Socrates. Interesting.
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which can neither speak for themselves nor teach the truth adequately to others?
Arguing that words cannot recognize audiences or truly teach content
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ceteris paribus
latin phrase meaning "all else being equal"
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He who is the victim of his passions and the slave of pleasure
strong language
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Have a little patience, Phaedrus and Socrates, they would say
There is danger in those who believe they are skilled rhetoricians, yet know only but the surface of the subject.
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eikonology
Assuming this is an alt spelling of "iconology"
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gnomology
Gnomology: (obsolete) A collection of, or a treatise on, maxims, grave sentences, or reflections.
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diplasiology
""Diplasiology” means “doubling” words; the Neoplatonic commentator Hermeias understood the term literally, as in “Alas, alas”; modern scholars tend to think words compounded of two roots are referred to." according to this
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the body which from being one becomes double and may be divided into a left side and right side
The body as analogy for rhetorical argument
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the rhetorician
Rhetoric, embodied
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the speaker who knows the truth may, without any serious purpose, steal away the hearts of his hearers
Orator makes the plan, rhetoric does the crime.
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The art of disputation, then, is not confined to the courts and the assembly, but is one and the same in every use of language; this is the art, if there be such an art, which is able to find a likeness of everything to which a likeness can be found, and draws into the light of day the likenesses and disguises which are used by others?
Rhetoric is not owned by a discourse but rather is nestled within discourse itself
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The art of disputation, then, is not confined to the courts and the assembly, but is one and the same in every use of language; this is the art, if there be such an art, which is able to find a likeness of everything to which a likeness can be found, and draws into the light of day the likenesses and disguises which are used by others?
Rhetoric is not owned by a discourse but rather is nestled within discourse itself
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reverse of good
interesting rhetorical hoop to jump through
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only heard of the rhetoric of Nestor and Odysseus
Rhetoric wielded by others may be shaped and defined differently
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Lo! a Spartan appears, and says that there never is nor ever will be a real art of speaking which is divorced from the truth.
Rhetorical embodiment of a rebuttal
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It is not rhetoric's job nor purpose to seek the truth, but rather persuasion that may be used in service of the truth
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what will be the harvest which rhetoric will be likely to gather after the sowing of that seed
Rhetoric personified as one that might assess or take stock of language--in this case a farmer.
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Are philosophers one step below gods...?
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No, that is not likely-in the garden of letters he will sow and plant, but only for the sake of recreation and amusement; he will write them down as memorials to be treasured against the forgetfulness of old age, by himself, or by any other old man who is treading the same path. He will rejoice in beholding their tender growth; and while others are refreshing their souls with banqueting and the like, this will be the pastime in which his days are spent.
I don't know how I feel about this.
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Do people still think like this? Blindly following public figures because of who they are instead of looking for the truth?
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aid not to memory, but to reminiscence,
I remember hearing once that the digital age has made us worse at remembering things because we know we can just look them up on our phones or computers... Is this similar?
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but only about conviction
pathos?
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he who would be an orator has to learn the differences of human souls-they are so many and of such a nature, and from them come the differences between man and man.
building ethos with your audience
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partly given by nature, but may also be assisted by art.
techne?
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A very great power in public meetings
Once again, limiting rhetoric to public events
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in order to remind the hearers of them
conclusion and repetition
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I should say rather that I have heard the art confined to speaking and writing in lawsuits, and to speaking in public assemblies-not extended farther.
this view is still widely held today by those who haven't studied rhetoric
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art of enchanting the mind by arguments;
Rhetoric as a techne, an art
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And yet, Socrates, I have heard that he who would be an orator has nothing to do with true justice, but only with that which is likely to be approved by the many who sit in judgment;
Rhetoric is often thought of as manipulative--something politicians use to get votes, etc.
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One of the rules of rhetoric: Know as much as you can about your subject before speaking on it. Helps you connect with your audience
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which almost always have previous pain as a condition of them
there is no pleasure without pain
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For there is nothing of which our great politicians are so fond as of writing speeches and bequeathing them to posterity.
Interesting statement about politics...
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But why did you make your second oration so much finer than the first?
Perhaps because he was speaking the truth (or at least what he believed to be true)... Is rhetoric more powerful when it is supported with truth?
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blood-red complexion
not just red, blood-red
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white
the color white is typically associated with purity, ex. white wedding dresses
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I have no hope of practising my art upon you
Interesting that he calls it an art here, like he is proud of his "memorization." But, in his last dialogue, he admits to only having a "general notion."
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For, as I was saying, I want to know not about this, but about myself
It is also often argued that the study of rhetoric leads to increased self-awareness...
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For they praise your words and actions in a wrong way; partly, because they are afraid of offending you, and also, their judgment is weakened by passion.
Love literally blinds us.
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Do we still think this way today?
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Yet surely you ought not to be granting favours to those who besiege you with prayer, but to those who are best able to reward you;
He has no interest in one-sided friendships.
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repetition
How do we use repetition in rhetoric?
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"tu quoque"
logical appeal to hypocrisy
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This is an interesting analogy
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dithyrambics.
1. a Greek choral song or chant of vehement or wild character and of usually irregular form, originally in honor of Dionysus or Bacchus. 2. any poem or other composition having similar characteristics, as an impassioned or exalted theme or irregular form. 3. any wildly enthusiastic speech or writing.
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servant.
beloved = servant?
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And not only while his love continues is he mischievous and unpleasant, but when his love ceases he becomes a perfidious enemy of him on whom he showered his oaths and prayers and promises, and yet could hardly prevail upon him to tolerate the tedium of his company even from motives of interest.
Ahh, we know this too well
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His analogies are just... They're something.
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For if love be, as he surely is, a divinity, he cannot be evil.
His own use of rhetoric allowed him to reflect on his words
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which may be compared to the irritation and uneasiness in the gums at the time of cutting teeth,-
Interesting that earlier, he defines the difference between mortal and immortal. Here, he compares an immortal experience to a moral one
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The followers of Zeus
He consistently groups philosophers with Zeus
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only the soul of a philosopher, guileless and true, or the soul of a lover, who is not devoid of philosophy
identifying the value of philosophy?
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