On 2016 Mar 08, Lydia Maniatis commented:
Thanks to the authors for taking the trouble to respond to my comments. However, I feel they're missing the point. Below, I've copy-pasted their reply and broken it up into statements by them and replies by me.
Authors: Our conclusions do not depend on any model, falsifiable or otherwise. They were based on the mathematical incompatibility between certain visual computations and empirical measurements reported in our paper.
Me: What visual computations?
Authors: (It should also be noted that we also described a model consistent with our measurements: The Markovian Subsampler. However, that model was ignored by the commentator.)
Me: Ad hoc models will usually be consistent with the data, that's their purpose. This doesn't make them relevant.
Authors: Our conclusions follow logically from our measurements of efficiency.
Me: Conclusions with respect to what?
Authors: These measurements do not rest on any unproven theoretical constructs. Efficiency is a purely descriptive measure of performance in relation to the available information.
Me: What does this measure tell us about the “visual computations” involved in the “performance?”
Authors: Given any sample size N, efficiency is the ratio of M to N, where M is the sample size that the ideal observer would need in order to estimate a statistic with the same precision as a human observer. Since the ideal observer is, by definition, at least as good as any other observer, human decisions are necessarily based on M or more elements.
Me: Why, as vision scientists, should we care about your measure of performance? What insights does it provide with respect to visual perception and related processes?
Authors: Estimates of efficiency tell us nothing about visual appearance.
Me: So the “visual computation” referred to in the first paragraph is not connected to “visual appearance.” What, then, is “visual” about the computation?
Author: The relationship between appearance and performance would be something interesting to study, but our study was about performance alone.
Me: The text refers to a “visual computation,” “visual statistics,” "visual information." What is the meaning of the term “visual” if not “pertaining to appearance?” Furthermore, your abstract clearly implies that you are interested in appearance, e.g. when you say that "With orientation...it is relatively safe to use an item's physical value as an approximation for its average perceived value." Your stimuli are contrasted with those used in studies where "observers are asked to make decisions on perceived average size," the idea being that in these circumstances the percept is not as reliable as in the case of orientation.
Authors: Our observers were asked to estimate expected values, and they were pressed for time. Inferring the minimum sample sizes used by our observers is a purely mathematical exercise.
Me: How is this exercise of interest to readers of a journal on visual perception?
Authors: On average (i.e. across observers) we found that this minimum increased from approximately 2 to approximately 3 (average efficiencies increased from approximately 2/8 to approximately 3/8), as we eased the time constraint by providing longer presentations. Of course these numbers are subject to measurement error, so we performed statistical tests to see whether the 3 was significantly greater than the 2 and whether the 2 was significantly greater than 1. Both differences proved significant.
Me: You might get similar results asking viewers the following question: Is the average of the numbers to the right of the colon smaller or larger than the number to the left of the colon.
8: 5, 11, 3, 9, 13, 2, 9, 6.
What would this tell us about visual perception (that we didn't already know)?
Authors: Our conclusion against a purely parallel computation is valid, because our data unequivocally support an increase in efficiency with time.
Me: Most tasks are easier given more time. However, saying that I'm able to perform better on a task given more time doesn't actually make me more efficient at the task, in the ordinary meaning of the term. If one becomes more efficient at a task, they can do it better in the same amount of time. I think at best you're measuring improvement in “accuracy.” People's answers become more accurate given more time, especially when some durations are very brief. This is a pretty sure thing regardless of the task. How did your experimental conditions give such a finding added value for visual perception?
References to “parallel computation” are empty of content if, as you said above, you're not interested in process, but only in performance. “Computation” refers to process. There are obviously different types of processes involved in the task, and all mental processes involve both serial and parallel neural processes. So unless you're more specific about the type of computations that you're referring to, and how your method allowed you to isolate them, you aren't saying anything interesting.
Authors: However, as noted in the published paper, our conclusion against a purely serial computation isn’t as strong. It is based on the second of the aforementioned significant differences, but there remains the possibility that our most stringent time constraint (0.1 s) wasn’t sufficiently stringent.
Me: a) Why didn't you make conditions sufficiently stringent to achieve your goals? b) Similarly to what I said above, the phrase “a purely serial computation” is lumping observers' experience and mental activity and decision-making strategy together into an undifferentiated and wholly uninformative reference to “a computation.”
All in all, you seem to be saying that you devised a task that observers are bad at (as ascertained by your special measure but as would be obvious using any measure) and do better at if given more time (as would be expected for most tasks), and that you don't care how they were doing it or how it aids in the understanding of visual perception.
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