6,659 Matching Annotations
  1. Jan 2025
    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The manuscript by Zhang et al. explores the effect of autophagy regulator ATG6 on NPR1-mediated immunity. The authors propose that ATG6 directly interacts with NPR1 in the nucleus to increase its stability and promote NPR1-dependent immune gene expression and pathogen resistance. This novel role of ATG6 is proposed to be independent of its role in autophagy in the cytoplasm. The authors demonstrate through biochemical analysis that ATG6 interacts with NPR1 in yeast and very weakly in vitro. They further demonstrate using overexpression transgenic plants that in the presence of ATG6-mcherry the stability of NPR1-GFP and its nuclear pool is increased.

      Comments on latest version:

      The term "invasion" has to be replaced with infection, as it doesn't have much meaning to this particular study. I already explained this point in the first review, but authors did not address it throughout the manuscript.

      Thank you for your constructive feedback. We have taken your suggestion into account and replaced "invasion" with "infection" in the revised manuscript (Lines 44,45,99,100,298,341,387,415,461,463,464,1002).

      In fig. 1e there's no statistical analysis. How can one show measurements from multiple samples without statistical analysis? All the data points have to be shown in the graph and statistics performed. In the arg6-npr1 and snrk-npr1 pairs no nuclear marker is included. How can one know where the nucleus is, particularly in such poor quality low res. images? The nucleus marker has to be included in this analysis and shown. This is an important aspect of the study as nuclear localization of ATG6 is proposed to be essential for its new function.

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We conducted the BIFC experiments again using nls-mCherry transgenic tobacco, which yielded clearer images. The results clearly demonstrate that ATG6 interacts with NPR1 in both the cytoplasm and nucleus. YFP signaling in the nucleus co-localizes with nls-mCherry (a nuclear localization mark). SnRK2.8 was employed as a positive control for NPR1 interaction." Relative fluorescence intensity of YFP were analyzed using image J software, n = 15 independent images were analyzed to quantify YFP fluorescence. All data points are displayed in the image, and we also conducted a Student's t-test analysis. We have incorporated these results into the revised manuscript (Fig 1d and e).

      Co-localization provided in the fig. S2 cannot complement this analysis, particularly since no cytoplasmic fraction is present for NPR1-GFP in fig. S2.

      Thank you for your observation. We repeated the experiment and confirmed that NPR1 and ATG6 co-localize in both the nucleus and cytoplasm. The image in Figure S2 has been updated accordingly.

      In the alignment in fig 2c, it is not explained what are the species the atg6 is taken from. The predicted NLS has to be shown in the context of either the entire protein sequence alignment or at least individual domain alignment with the indication of conserved residues (consensus). They have to include more species in the analysis, instead of including 3 proteins from a single species. Also, the predicted NLS in atg6 doesn't really have the classical type architecture, which might be an indication that it is a weak NLS, consistent with the fact that the protein has significant cytoplasmic accumulation. They also need to provide the NLS prediction cut-off score, as this parameter is a measure of NLS strength.

      Line 150: the NLS sequence "FLKEKKKKK" is a wrong sequence.

      Thank you for your suggestion. In both plants and animals, proteins are transported to the nucleus via specific nuclear localization signals (NLSs), which are typically characterized by short stretches of basic amino acids (Dingwall and Laskey, 1991, Raikhel, 1992, Nigg, 1997). Following your recommendation, we re-predicted potential NLS sequences in the ATG6 protein using NLSExplorer (http://www.csbio.sjtu.edu.cn/bioinf/NLSExplorer). Although we did not identify a classical monopartite NLS, we discovered a bipartite NLS similar to the consensus bipartite sequence (KRX<sub>(10-12)</sub>K(KR)(KR)) (Kosugi et al., 2009)in the carboxy-terminal region (475-517 aa) of ATG6, with a cut-off score of 2.6. These findings are consistent with substantial accumulation of ATG6 in the cytoplasm and minimal accumulation in the nucleus. Additionally, our comparison of ATG6 C-terminal sequences across several species, including Microthlaspi erraticum, Capsella rubella, Brassica carinata, Camelina sativa, Theobroma cacao, Brassica rapa, Eutrema salsugineum, Raphanus sativus, Hirschfeldia incana and Brassica napus, sequence comparison indicates that this bipartite NLS is relatively conserved. We have incorporated these results into the revised manuscript (lines 450-160).

      In fig. 3d no explanation for the error bars is included, and what type of statistical analysis is performed is not explained.

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention. In Figure 3d, a Student's t-test was conducted to analyze the data. The mean and standard deviation were calculated from three biological replicates, and the relevant description has been included in the figure notes.

      Reference

      Dingwall, C. and Laskey, R.A. (1991) Nuclear targeting sequences--a consensus? Trends Biochem Sci, 16, 478-481.

      Kosugi, S., Hasebe, M., Matsumura, N., Takashima, H., Miyamoto-Sato, E., Tomita, M. and Yanagawa, H. (2009) Six classes of nuclear localization signals specific to different binding grooves of importin alpha. J Biol Chem, 284, 478-485.

      Nigg, E.A. (1997) Nucleocytoplasmic transport: signals, mechanisms and regulation. Nature, 386, 779-787.

      Raikhel, N. (1992) Nuclear targeting in plants. Plant Physiol, 100, 1627-1632.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Weaknesses:

      However, given that S1P is upstream NF-κB signaling, it is unclear if it offers conceptual innovations as compared to previous studies from the same team (Palazzo et al. 2020; 2022, 2023)

      We find distinct differences between the impacts of S1P- and NFkB-signaling on glial activation, neuronal differentiation of the progeny of MGPCs and neuronal survival in damaged retinas. In the current study we demonstrate that 2 consecutive daily intravitreal injections of S1P selectively activated mTor (pS6) and Jak/Stat3 (pStat3), but not MAPK (pERK1/2) signaling in Müller glia.  Further, inhibition of S1P synthesis (SPHK1 inhibitor) decreased ATF3, mTor (pS6) and pSmad1/5/9 levels in activated Müller glia in damaged retinas. Inhibition of NFkB-signaling in damaged chick retinas did not impact the above-mentioned cell signaling pathways (Palazzo et al., 2020). Thus, S1P-signaling impacts cell signaling pathways in MG that are distinct from NFκB, but we cannot exclude the possibility of cross-talk between NFkB and these pathways. Further, inhibition of NFκB-signaling potently decreases numbers of dying cells and increases numbers of surviving ganglion cells (Palazzo et al 2020). Consistent with these findings, a TNF orthologue, which presumably activates NFκB-signaling, exacerbates cell death in damage retinas (Palazzo et al., 2020). By contrast, 5 different drugs targeting S1P-signaling had no effect on numbers of dying cells and only one S1PR1 inhibitor modestly decreased numbers of dying cells (current study). Although two different inhibitors of NFkB-signaling suppressed the proliferation of microglia in damaged retinas (Palazzo et al., 2020), all of the S1P-targeting drugs had no effect upon the proliferation of microglia (current study). In addition, inhibition of NFκB does not influence the neurogenic potential of MGPCs in damaged chick retinas (Palazzo et al., 2020), whereas inhibition of S1P receptors (S1PR1 and S1PR3) and inhibition of S1P synthesis (SPHK1) significantly increased the differentiation of amacrine-like neurons in damaged retinas (current study). Collectively, in comparison to the effects of pro-inflammatory cytokines and NFκB-signaling, our current findings indicate that S1P-signaling through S1PR1 and S1PR3 in Müller glia has distinct effects upon cell signaling pathways, neuronal regeneration and cell survival in damaged retinas. We will revise text in the Discussion (pages 33-34) to better highlight these important distinctions between NFκB- and S1P-signaling.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Weaknesses:

      The methodology is not very clean. A number of drugs (inhibitors/ antagonists/agonists signal modulators) are used to modulate S1P expression or signaling in the retina without evidence that these drugs are reaching the target cells. No alternative evaluation if the drugs, in fact, are effective. The drug solubility in the vehicle and in the vitreous is not provided, and how did they decide on using a single dose of each drug to have the optimal expected effect on the S1P pathway?

      Müller glia are the predominant retinal cell type that expresses S1P receptors. Consistent with these patterns of expression, we report Müller glia-specific effects of different agonists and antagonists that increase or decrease S1P-signaling. Since we compare cell-level changes within contralateral eyes wherein one retina is exposed to vehicle and the other is exposed to vehicle plus drug, it seems highly probable that the drugs are eliciting effects upon the Müller glia. It is possible, but very unlikely, that the responses we observed could have resulted from drugs acting on extra-retinal tissues, which might secondarily release factors that elicit cellular responses in Müller glia. However, this seems unlikely given the distinct patterns of expression for different S1P receptors in Müller glia, and the outcomes of inhibiting Sphk1 or S1P lyase on retinal levels of S1P.

      For example, we provide evidence that S1PR1 and S1PR3 expression is predominant in Müller glia in the chick retina using single cell-RNA sequencing and fluorescence in situ hybridization (FISH). Thus, we expect that S1PR1/3-targeting small molecule inhibitors to directly act on Müller glia, which is consistent with our read-outs of cell signaling with injections of S1P in undamaged retinas. We show that SPHK1 and SGPL1, which encode the enzymes that synthesize or degrade S1P, are expressed by different retinal cell types, including the Müller glia. The efficacy of the drugs that target SPHK1 and SGPL1 was assessed by measuring levels of S1P in the retina. By using liquid chromatography and tandem mass spectroscopy (LC-MS/MS), we provide data that inhibition of S1P synthesis (inhibition of SPHK1) significantly decreased levels of S1P in normal retinas, whereas inhibition of S1P degradation (inhibition of SGPL1) increased levels of S1P in damaged retinas (Fig. 5).  These data suggest that the SPHK1 inhibitor and the SGPL1 inhibitor specifically act at the intended target to influence retinal levels of S1P.  Further, inhibition of SPHK1 (to decrease levels S1P) results in decreased levels of ATF3, pS6 (mTor) and pSMAD1/5/9 in Müller glia, consistent with the notion that reduced levels of S1P in the retina impacts signaling at Müller glia. Finally, we find similar cellular responses to chemically different agonists or antagonists, and we find opposite cellular responses to agonists and antagonists, which are expected to be complimentary if the drugs are specifically acting at the intended targets in the retina. We will revise the Discussion to better address caveats and concerns regarding the actions and specificity of different drugs within the retina following intravitreal delivery.

      We will provide the drug solubility specifications and estimates of the initial maximum dose per eye for each drug. For chick eyes between P7 and P14, these estimates will assume a volume of about 100 ul of liquid vitreous, 800 ul gel vitreous and an average eye weight of 0.9 grams. We will revise Table 1 (pharmacological compounds) with ranges of reported in vivo ED50’s (mg/kg) for drugs and we will list the calculated initial maximum dose (mg/kg equivalent) per eye. Doses were chosen based on estimates of the initial maximum ocular dose that were within the range of reported ED50’s. However, as is the case for any in vivo model system, it is difficult to predict rates of drug diffusion out of the vitreous, how quickly the drugs are cleared from the entire eye, how much of the compound enters the retina, and how quickly the drug is cleared from the retina. Accordingly, we assessed drug specificity and sites of activation by relying upon readouts of cell signaling pathways that are parsed with patterns of expression of different S1P receptors and measurements of retinal levels of S1P following exposure to drugs targeted enzymes that synthesize or degrade S1P, as described above. 

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I am wondering if Muller glia can be considered as fully differentiated at early postnatal stages as those used in this study. Is this mechanism operative in adult retinas? Could the authors perform studies in older animals, just to have the proof of principle that the proposed mechanism is retained.

      Chickens are considered to be adult at about 4 months of age, when the females start laying eggs. Unfortunately, housing, maintenance, handling and experimentation on large adult chickens has proven to be challenging. Nevertheless, there is evidence that Muller glia reprogramming remains robust in mature chick retinas from the P1 through P30, but the zones of proliferation shift away from central retina and become increasingly confined to the retinal periphery (Fischer, 2005). MG “maturation” appears to occur in a central-to-peripheral gradient, much like the process of embryonic retinal differentiation, but a zone of regeneration-competent MG remains in the periphery during adolescent development (Fischer, 2005).

      We have defined central vs peripheral retina in the Methods.

      To partially address this question, we have generated a new supplemental Figure 6 showing (i) SPHK1 fluorescent in-situ labeling of central and peripheral regions at P10, and (ii) analysis of EdU+Sox2+ MGPCs in central versus regions treated with NMDA +/-S1PR1 inhibitor or NMDA+/- SPHK1 inhibitor. We find that patterns of S1PR1 transcription in the central region are similar to the peripheral region (not shown), and S1PR1 inhibition modestly increased numbers of MGPCs in central regions. Unlike the peripheral regions of retina, SPHK1 FISH signal in the central region remains low at 48 hours post-injury (supplemental Fig. 6). Additionally, we found that the SPHK1 inhibitor had no effect on numbers of proliferating MGPCs in the central regions of retina, whereas SPHK1 inhibitors stimulated proliferation of MGPCs in the periphery (Fig. 4). It is likely that mature MG in central retinal regions are not responsive to SPHK1 inhibition due to low levels of expression.

      We have previously shown that Notch-related genes show unique patterns of expression in the central and peripheral retinas, and expression levels significantly change at P0, P7, and P21 (Ghai et al, 2010). We found that Notch inhibition reduced cell death and numbers of MGPCs in central regions but not peripheral regions. Recent sc-RNA sequencing analysis of murine macula and peripheral retinal regions has revealed interesting differences in NFKBIA/Z and NFIA expression, possibly indicating a difference in the early inflammatory transcriptional response to retinal damage (Zhang et al, 2024 biorxiv). We believe that spatial sequencing of peripheral “immature” and central “mature” chick Muller glia will be a useful tool in the future to reveal key differences in signaling pathway-related gene expression which confer a competence for regeneration in the periphery.

      We have added text to the Results (pages 20-21) and Discussion (page 32) to address the S1P-signaling in central (mature MG) vs peripheral (immature MG) regions of the retina.

      Minor points.

      The abstract is difficult to follow and consists of a list of what activates or represses the formation of MGPC. Please rewrite the abstract to integrate information and provide a clearer message. Also, please include the species of study in the abstract and mention it again at the beginning of the results, at least.

      We have rewritten the abstract to simplify and clarify our main points (p 2).

      Lines 65-69. The sentence is unclear, perhaps there are words either missing or in excess and there is a need to check the spelling.

      We have simplified this sentence to improve clarity and referenced our recently published review to support.

      Lines 112-113. Please explain why " retinas were treated with saline, NMDA, or 2 or 3 doses insulin+FGF2 and the combination of NMDA and insulin+FGF2". There is a reference but readers will appreciate understanding right away why.

      We have added a sentence to clarify the purpose of comparing gene expression patterns in MG and MGPCs in NMDA-damaged retinas versus retinas treated with insulin+FGF2.

      Lines 223-257. This list of experiments is difficult to follow and perhaps should be summarized better. Somehow lines 257-261 say it all.

      We have revised this section to clarify differences in outcomes between S1PR1/3 activators and inhibitors. We also stated the enzymatic functions of SPHK1 and SGPL1 to improve clarity.

      Lines 392-441. Comparative expression analysis should be summarized as the message is somehow simple but the description is rather lengthy.

      We have revised our comparative expression analyses to be more concise.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Only a single dose of the drugs (inhibitor/ antagonists/agonists signal modulators) is used for each drug, as shown in Table 1. How do they know this is an effective dose?

      We estimated the appropriate dose based on the initial maximum dose, which we based on the reported ED50 values for each drug. We have revised Table 1 to include this information.

      (2) Most of the drugs appeared to be hydrophobic, but except for sphingosine and S1P, all are described to be injected with sterile saline. They must provide solubility characteristics of these drugs in solvents. For example, FTY720 is not water-soluble, which raises the question of all of their drugs' solubility, bioavailability to the cells of interest, and their effectivity in signal transduction in the retinal cells.

      Some S1P-targeting compounds were delivered in 20% DMSO in saline to support the solubility of the different lipophillic small molecule agonists/antagonists. We have added information to the Methods to describe the use of DMSO to solubilize these drugs (p 6) in Table 1 and p 5. We have also revised Table 1 with ranges of reported ED50’s (mg/kg) for all drugs and listed the calculated initial maximum dose (mg/kg) per eye.

      (3) Drugs were delivered to the vitreous chamber, but there was no information on how they would cross the inner limiting membrane to affect or modulate S1P metabolism in retinal MG or to bind the S1P receptors on MG or other retinal cell types.

      All selected compounds are small-molecule drugs, many of which are structural analogues of sphingosine or S1P. These drugs would be classified as BDDCS Class II drugs, meaning they have low solubility but high cell permeability. Thus, it is highly probable that they diffuse across the ILM to act on S1P receptors on MG, but it is also likely that their bioavailability is more limited, requiring a higher dose, repeated doses, and the use of solubilizing agents. We have clarified our use of DMSO to solubilize these drugs (p 6) according to vendor recommendations (p 5). This information has been added to the Methods.

      (4) Gene expression is a very dynamic process; without providing more evidence that the expression changes are the direct effect of the drug treatment, the conclusions made based on the gene expression profiles are not strong. Additional points:

      We do not make assertions that changes in scRNA-seq expression profiles are the direct result of S1P-targetting drugs. We report significant changes in cellular expression profiles following NMDA-induced retinal damage or ablation of microglia. We feel that new experiments to assess the gene expression profiles of retinal cells that are directly downstream of the different S1P-targetting drugs is better suited for future studies.

      (5) Please add in the introduction that there is only one sphingosine kinase in chicken, as no SPHK2 is known to be present.

      We have added additional information regarding the expression of SPHK1 and SPHK2 genes in the chick genome (p 4).

      (6) Fig 1d and in many other UMAP clusters, the low expressing genes are barely visible (Ex. 1d, S1PR2, and S1PR3); please extract them in separate UMAP clusters and provide them in supplements.

      We have revised supplemental Figure 1 to include separate panels for each of the S1P-related gene.

      (7) The Figure References for SPHK1 (Fig. 2e), SGPL1 (Fig. 2e), ASAH1 (Fig. 2f), CERS6 (Fig. 2f), and CERS5 (Fig. 2f) in the line # 124- 132 should belong to Figure 1, not Figure 2.

      We have corrected these figure references (p 14).

      (8) The description of the expression of zebrafish genes does not match the figures. For example, 'Similarly, sphk1 was detected in very few cells in the retina (Fig. 10j). By comparison, sphk2 was detected in a few bipolar cells and rod photoreceptors (Fig. 10j). Similar to patterns of expression seen in chick and human retinas, sgpl1 was detected in microglia and a few cells scattered among the different clusters of inner retinal neurons and rod photoreceptors (Fig. 10j)', the expression of these genes are not in very few or few scattered cells rather in many cells.

      We have revised these statements to improve clarity and more accurately describe the data in Figure 10 (p 28).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors employed a combinatorial CRISPR-Cas9 knockout screen to uncover synthetically lethal kinase genes that could play a role in drug resistance to kinase inhibitors in triple-negative breast cancer. The study successfully reveals FYN as a mediator of resistance to depletion and inhibition of various tyrosine kinases, notably EGFR, IGF-1R, and ABL, in triple-negative breast cancer cells and xenografts. Mechanistically, they demonstrate that KDM4 contributes to the upregulation of FYN and thereby is an important mediator of drug resistance. All together, these findings suggest FYN and KDM4A as potential targets for combination therapy with kinase inhibitors in triple-negative breast cancer. Moreover, the study may also have important implications for other cancer types and other inhibitors, as the authors suggest that FYN could be a general feature of drug-tolerant persister cells.

      Strengths:

      (1) The authors used a large combination matrix of druggable tyrosine kinase gene knockouts, enabling studying of co-dependence of kinase genes. This approach mitigates off-target effects typically associated with kinase inhibitors, enhancing the precision of the findings.

      (2) The authors demonstrate the importance of FYN in drug resistance in multiple ways. They demonstrate synergistic interactions using both knockouts and inhibitors, while also revealing its transcriptional upregulation upon treatment, strengthening the conclusion that FYN plays a role in the resistance.

      (3) The study extends its impact by demonstrating the potent in vivo efficacy of certain combination treatments, underscoring the clinical relevance of the identified strategies.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The methods and figure legends are incomplete, posing a barrier to the reproducibility of the study and hindering a comprehensive understanding and accurate interpretation of the results.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We tried adding as much detail in methods and figures legends as possible to maximize reproducibility and accuracy in interpreting our results as will be described for our responses for the recommendations for authors.

      (2) The authors make use of a large quantity of public data (Fig. 2D/E, Fig. 3F/L/M, Fig 4C, Fig 5B/H/I), whereas it would have strengthened the paper to perform these experiments themselves. While some of this data would be hard to generate (e.g. patient data) other data could have been generated by the authors. The disadvantage of the use of public data is that it merely comprises associations, but does not have causal/functional results (e.g. FYN inhibition in the different cancer models with various drugs). Moreover, by cherry-picking the data from public sources, the context of these sources is not clear to the reader, and thus harder to interpret correctly. For example, it is not directly clear whether the upregulation of FYN in these models is a very selective event or whether it is part of a very large epigenetic re-programming, where other genes may be more critical. While some of the used data are from well-known curated databases, others are from individual papers that the reader should assess critically in order to interpret the data. Sometimes the public data was redundant, as the authors did do the experiments themselves (e.g. lung cancer drug-tolerant persisters), in this case, the public data could also be left out.

      More importantly, the original sources are not properly cited. While the GEO accession numbers are shown in a supplementary table, the articles corresponding to this data should be cited in the main text, and preferably also in the figure legend, to clarify that this data is from public sources, which is now not always the case (e.g. line 224-226). If these original papers do already mention the upregulation of FYN, and the findings from the authors are thus not original, these findings should be discussed in the Discussion section instead of shown in the Results.

      We welcome the reviewer’s concern. As reviewer pointed out, our analysis with FYN expression levels in multiple studies with drug tolerant cells may merely reflect association and not causal relationships. We had at least shown that FYN inhibition may reduce drug tolerance in TNBC and EGFR inhibitor treated lung cancer cells (figures 2H, 5E). The causal role of FYN in emergence of drug tolerance in other cancers treated with different drugs (such as irinotecan treated colon adenocarcinoma and gemcitabine treated pancreatic adenocarcinoma) may be beyond scope of this study. We made a brief discussion addressing this concern in lines 273-275.

      We also added proper citations of the public data used in this study in main text and figure legends in lines 267-269. The GEO accession numbers are listed in supplementary table S2. Importantly, none of the referenced studies identified FYN as key factor in generating drug tolerant cells.

      (3) The claim in the abstract (and discussion) that the study "highlights FYN as broadly applicable mediator of therapy resistance and persistence", is not sufficiently supported by the results. The current study only shows functional evidence for this for an EGFR, IGF1R, and Abl inhibitor in TNBC cells. Further, it demonstrates (to a limited extent) the role of FYN in gefitinib and osimertinib resistance (also EGFR inhibitors) in lung cancer cells. Thus, the causal evidence provided is only limited to a select subset of tyrosine kinase inhibitors in two cancer types. While the authors show associations between FYN and drug resistance in other cancer types and after other treatments, these associations are not solid evidence for a causal connection as mentioned in this statement. Epigenetic reprogramming causing drug resistance can be accompanied by altered gene expression of many genes, and the upregulation of FYN may be a consequence, but not a cause of the drug resistance. Therefore, the authors should be more cautious in making such statements about the broad applicability of FYN as a mediator of therapy resistance.

      We fully agree with the reviewer’s concern that FYN upregulation is simply an association, and may not be the cause of drug tolerance and resistance. Therefore, to accurately convey our findings, we edited our manuscript in lines 34-36 in abstract to “FYN expression is associated with therapy resistance and persistence by demonstrating its upregulation in various experimental models of drug-tolerant persisters and residual disease following targeted therapy, chemotherapy, and radiotherapy” and lines 288-290 in discussion to “ Upregulation of FYN is a general feature of drug tolerant cancer cells, suggesting the association of FYN expression with drug resistance and tumor recurrence after treatment.” We hope this satisfies the reviewer.

      (4) The rationale for picking and validating FYN as the main candidate gene over other genes such as FGFR2, FRK2, and TEK is not clear.

      a. While gene pairs containing FGFR2 knockouts seemed to be equally effective as FYN gene pairs in the primary screening, these could not be validated in the validation experiment. It is unclear whether multiple individual or a pool of gRNAs were used for this validation, or whether only 1 gRNA sequence was picked per gene for this validation. If only 1 gRNA per gene was used, this likely would have resulted in variable knockout efficiencies. Moreover, the T7 endonuclease assay may not have been the best method to check knockout efficiency, as it only implies endonuclease activity around a gene (but not to the extent of indels that can cause frameshifts, such as by TIDE analysis, or extent of reduction in protein levels by western blot).

      b. Moreover, FRK2 and TEK, also demonstrated many synergistic gene pairs in the primary screen. However, many of these gene pairs were not included in the validation screening. The selection criteria of candidate gene pairs for validation screening is not clear. Still, TEK-ABL2 was also validated as a strong hit in the validation screen. The authors should better explain the choice of FYN over other hits, and/or mention that TEK and FRK2 may also be important targets for combination treatment that can be further elucidated.

      We thank the reviewer for improving our manuscript. We had concerns with the generalizability of FGFR2, FRK and TEK in TNBC as their expressions are very low in MDA-MB-231, nor were they enriched in TNBC compared to cancer cell lines of other subtypes. We added a brief comment on this concern in results section and discussion section (lines 150-154, figure S3). Although we acknowledge that the validations done in figure 2B is a result of only one guide RNA, with validations with pharmacological inhibition of FYN (figure 2F-I), we hope the reader and reviewer can be convinced with our key findings in synthetic lethality between FYN and other tyrosine kinases.

      (5) On several occasions, the right controls (individual treatments, performed in parallel) are not included in the figures. The authors should include the responses to each of the single treatments, and/or better explain the normalization that might explain why the controls are not shown.

      a. Figure 2G: The effect of PP2 treatment, without combined treatment, is not shown.

      b. Figure 2H/3G: The effect of the knockouts on growth alone, compared to sgGFP, is not demonstrated. It is unclear whether the viability of knockouts is normalized to sgGFP, or to each untreated knockout.

      c. Figure 2L: The effect of SB203580 as a single treatment is not shown.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. The data shown for all figures listed in these concerns were normalized by the changes in viability by pharmacological or genetic perturbations that synergized with TKIs (NVP-ADW742, gefitinib…etc.) used in the figures in the original manuscript. As reviewer had suggested, we newly added the effect of SB203580 and PP2 treatment on cell viability in supplementary figures S4A, S4K. SB203580 had no significant effect on cell viability, while PP2 treatment caused significant decrease in cell viability, which is expected as PP2 can inhibit activity of multiple Src family kinases. Regardless of the effect of SB203580 and PP2 on cell viability as single agent, it is evident that treatment of TKIs synergistically decreased cell viability in cancer cell lines. The change in viability by FYN or histone lysine demethylase knockout was also provided in newly added figure S4D and S6C. Notably, genetic ablation of FYN or histone lysine demethylases had modest, if any, influences on cell viability.

      (6) The study examines the effects at a single, relatively late time point after treatment with inhibitors, without confirming the sequential impact on KDM4A and FYN. The proposed sequence of transcriptional upregulation of KDM4A followed by epigenetic modifications leading to FYN upregulation would be more compellingly supported by demonstrating a consecutive, rather than simultaneous, occurrence of these events. Furthermore, the protein level assessment at 48 hours (for RNA levels not clearly described), raises concerns about potential confounding factors. At this late time point, reduced cell viability due to the combination treatment could contribute to observed effects such as altered FYN expression and P38 MAPK phosphorylation, making it challenging to attribute these changes solely to the specific and selective reduction of FYN expression by KDM4A.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We performed time course experiment for NVP-ADW742 treatment on MDA-MB-231 cells in our newly added figure 3E. Surprisingly, treatment of NVP-ADW742 increased KDM4A protein level within two hours. FYN protein accumulation followed KDM4A accumulation after 24 hours. This observation, with our chromatin immunoprecipitation data in figure 3O, provide evidence that FYN accumulation is a consequence of KDM4A accumulation and H3K9me3 demethylation upon TKI treatment. We newly discussed this data in results and discussion section in lines 214-216.

      (7) The cut-off for considering interactions "synergistic" is quite low. The manual of the used "SynergyFinder" tool itself recommends values above >10 as synergistic and between -10 and 10 as additive ( https://synergyfinder.fimm.fi/synergy/synfin_docs/). Here, values between 5-10 are also considered synergistic. Caution should be taken when discussing those results. Showing the actual dose response (including responses to each single treatment) may be required to enable the reader to critically assess the synergy, along with its standard deviation.

      We thank the reviewer for careful comments. We reanalyzed our data with SynergyFinder plus tool (Zheng, Genomics, Proteomics, and Bioinformatics 2022), which implements mathematical models distinct from SynergyFinder 3, for more faithful implementation of Bliss, Loewe independence models, and more critically, calculates statistical significance of the synergy. We provide updates synergy plots with statistics in figures 2F, 3J, and S4B. All drug combinations show statistically significant synergy (p<0.01). We also add raw data used to calculate synergy in figures 2F, 3J and S4B in supplementary dataset S2.

      (8) As the effect size on Western blots is quite limited and sometimes accompanied by differences in loading control, these data should be further supported by quantifications of signal intensities of at least 3 biological replicates (e.g. especially Figure 3A/5A). The figure legends should also state how many independent experiments the blots are representative of.

      We added quantifications for figure 3A and 5A for better depiction of our results. Figure legends were edited to indicate this is a representative of three independent experiments.

      (9) While the article provides mechanistic insights into the likely upregulation of FYN by KDM4A, this constitutes only a fragment of the broader mechanism underlying drug resistance associated with FYN. The study falls short in investigating the causes of KDM4A upregulation and fails to explore the downstream effects (except for p38 MAPK phosphorylation, which may not be complete) of FYN upregulation that could potentially drive sustained cell proliferation and survival. These omissions limit the comprehensive understanding of the complete molecular pathway, and the discussion section does not address potential implications or pathways beyond the identified KDM4A-FYN axis. A more thorough exploration of these aspects would enhance the study's contribution to the field.

      We welcome the reviewer’s careful concern. We agree our delineation of mechanisms underlying TKI resistance in TNBC involving KDM4 and FYN is far from complete. The increases in expression of histone demethylases were observed in cancers treated with different drugs. The mechanisms governing the increase in histone demethylase expression is not known and is beyond the scope of this paper. We newly added this in discussion section in lines 299-304.

      (10) FYN has been implied in drug resistance previously, and other mechanisms of its upregulation, as well as downstream consequences, have been described previously. These were not evaluated in this paper, and are also not discussed in the discussion section. Moreover, the authors did not investigate whether any of the many other mechanisms of drug resistance to EGFR, IGF1R, and Abl inhibitors that have been described, could be related to FYN as well. A more comprehensive examination of existing literature and consideration of alternative or parallel mechanisms in the discussion would enhance the paper's contribution to understanding FYN's involvement in drug resistance.

      FYN has been implicated in TKI resistance in CML cell lines (Irwin, Oncotarget, 2015). In this study, FYN is similarly transcriptionally upregulated in imatinib resistant CML, and this upregulation is dependent on EGR1 transcription factor. To address this concern, we generated EGR1 KO MDA-MB-231 cells and tested whether these cells retain the ability to accumulate FYN. Consistent with the previous study, imatinib treatment increased EGR1 protein level. However, EGR1 knockout did not influence FYN accumulation in MDA-MB-231 cells. EGR1 mediated accumulation of FYN may be context specific phenomenon to CML (Figure S5B). We newly discussed this result in result sections in lines 187-190. We also acknowledge that SRC family kinases are generally involved in drug resistance in many cancers. We discuss the recent findings regarding SRC family kinases in drug resistance in result section in lines 145-147 and discussion sections in lines 315-317.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Kim et al. conducted a study in which they selected 76 tyrosine kinases and performed CRISPR/Cas9 combinatorial screening to target 3003 genes in Triple-negative breast cancer (TNBC) cells. Their investigation revealed a significant correlation between the FYN gene and the proliferation and death of breast cancer cells. The authors demonstrated that depleting FYN and using FYN inhibitors, in combination with TKIs, synergistically suppressed the growth of breast cancer tumor cells. They observed that TKIs upregulate the levels of FYN and the histone demethylase family, particularly KDM4, promoting FYN expression. The authors further showed that KDM4 weakens the H3K9me3 mark in the FYN enhancer region, and the inhibitor QC6352 effectively inhibits this process, leading to a synergistic induction of apoptosis in breast cancer cells along with TKIs. Additionally, the authors discovered that FYN is upregulated in various drug-resistant cancer cells, and inhibitors targeting FYN, such as PP2, sensitize drug-resistant cells to EGFR inhibitors.

      Strengths:

      This study provides new insights into the roles and mechanisms of FYN and KDM4 in tumor cell resistance.

      Weaknesses:

      It is important to note that previous studies have also implicated FYN as a potential key factor in drug resistance of tumor cells, including breast cancer cells. While the current study is comprehensive and provides a rich dataset, certain experiments could be refined, and the logical structure could be more rigorous. For instance, the rationale behind selecting FYN, KDM4, and KDM4A as the focus of the study could be more thoroughly justified.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The methods and figure legends are incomplete, posing a barrier to the reproducibility of the study and hindering a comprehensive understanding and accurate interpretation of the results. A critical revision of these aspects is needed, for example:

      a. Catalogue numbers of certain products critical to reproduce the study (e.g. antibodies) and/or at what company they have been purchased (e.g. used compounds)

      b. On several occasions the used concentrations of drugs or exposure time are not mentioned (e.g. Figure 2H, G (PP2), I, J, K, L, etc.)

      c. Figure legend of figure panels E-I in Figure 5 seems to be completely incorrect and not consistent with the figure axis etc.

      d. RT-qPCR methodology is not described in Methods.

      e. Western blot methods are very limited: these should be described in more detail or cite an article that does.

      f. Organoid culture: Information about the source of tumour cells (e.g. pre-treatment biopsy, material after surgery), isolation of tumor cells (e.g. methodology, characterization of material) and culture conditions (e.g. culture time before the experiment) is lacking.

      g. Information about how gefitinib/osimertinib-resistant PC9 and HCC827 cells are generated (as well as culture conditions and where they are from) is missing.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing these out. We have done our best to add experimental details for reproducibility in methods section and figure legends in lines 343-348, 408-426, 431-432, 439-453, 648-650, 671-672 and 691-693.

      (2) Figure 1B/C/D: it would be more meaningful if the most important hits (at least in one of these panels) were highlighted (e.g. line with gene-pair named), or visualized separately, so that the reader does not have to read the supplementary table to know what the most important hits were.

      We thank the reviewer for careful concern. We newly added labels for key synergistic gene pairs in figures 1D as reviewer suggested.

      (3) qPCR data shown in Figure S4 is from 1 independent experiment. As these experiments (especially qPCR) can be rather variable and the effect size is not very large, I would highly recommend repeating these experiments, or excluding them, as conclusions from them are not solid.

      We found performing qPCR with many drugs that did not cause substantial synergistic cell death with NVP-ADW742 in figure S5C (figure S4A in previous version of manuscript) will not provide much additional insights. Also, as we were more interested in finding direct regulators of FYN expression, we focused on drugs that inhibit epigenetic regulator that activate transcription. Therefore, we focused on performing FYN qPCR with drug combinations involving GSK-J4 (KDM6 inhibitor) and pinometostat(DOT1L inhibitor). As shown in our newly added figure in S5D, while GSK-J4 inhibited FYN expression, pinometostat failed to do so. Also, we also confirm that knockout of KDM5 or KDM6 reproducibly failed to decrease FYN expression upon TKI treatment (figure S5E and S5G). The new results are discussed in lines 193-198. We hope these additions satisfy the reviewer.

      (4) For validation of synergistic knockouts, it would be helpful for the interpretation to also show the viability/growth of each knockout (or treatment), instead of mostly normalized scores. For example, the reader now has no insight into whether FYN knockout itself already affects cell viability, or not. If it (or EGFR/IGF1R/ABL knockout) would already substantially affect cell viability, a further reduction in cell viability may not be as relevant as when it would not affect cell viability at all.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We replaced our figure in figure 2A to indicate raw changes in cell viability in each single and double knockout cells in figure S2A. We hope this satisfies the reviewer.

      (5) The curve fitting as in Figure 2G is somewhat misleading. While the curve seems to be forced to go from 1-0, the +PP2 dose-response curve does actually not seem to start at 1, but rather at 0.8, likely resulting from the effect of PP2 as a single treatment, thus, effects may be interpreted as more synergistic than that they truly are.

      The results shown in figure 2G is actually normalized to cells treated or not with PP2 to better reflect the effect of NVP-ADW742, gefitinib and imatinib in the presence of PP2. So viability value starting at 0.8 is not because of the effect of PP2 treatment as single agent (because it is normalized to PP2 treated cells), but is actually because very small dose of particularly NVP-ADW742 resulted in modest decrease in viability. To more accurately depict our findings, we added the data point in figure 2G with TKI dose of 0uM at viability 1. We also added details for normalization of viability in figure legends.

      (6) The readability of the paper could be enhanced by higher-quality images (now the text is quite pixelated).

      We had technical difficulties in converting file types. We have replaced figures for better resolution for all main and supplementary figures.

      (7) The discussion now contains one paragraph about the selectivity of kinase inhibitors, and that repurposing of inhibitors with more relaxed specificity or multi-kinase inhibitors can be beneficial. This does not seem to fall within the scope of the study, as there was no comparison between selective and non-selective inhibitors. It was also not clearly mentioned that the non-selective inhibitors worked better than the gene knockouts, or that for example, KDM3 and KDM4 knockout together worked better than only KDM4 knockout. It is recommended to either remove this paragraph, or rephrase it so that it better fits the actual results

      We agree with the reviewer. We chose to remove this paragraph in lines 308-313.

      (8) The entire paper does not discuss any known functions of FYN. Its function could be very briefly introduced in the results section when highlighting it as an important hit. More importantly, its known role in cancer and especially drug resistance should be discussed in the discussion (see also Public review).

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We added brief description of the role of FYN in cancer malignancy and drug resistance in lines 145-147. Particularly, FYN accumulation by EGR1 transcription factor had been described in the context of imatinib resistant chronic myeloid leukemia (Irwin, Oncotarget, 2015). To address this, we tested whether EGR1 knockout decreases FYN level in MDA-MB-231 (Figure S5A). Notably EGR1 knockout failed to decrease FYN protein level. This result was discussed in lines 187-190.

      (9) Textual changes including:

      a. Line 29 (and others) "Massively parallel combinatorial CRISPR screens": I would rather choose a more descriptive term, such as "combinatorial tyrosine kinase knockout CRISPR screen", which already clarifies the screen used knockouts of (druggable) tyrosine kinases only. Using both "Parallel" and "combinatorial" is somewhat redundant, and "massively" is subjective, in my opinion.

      Manuscript edited as suggested (lines 29, 63, 86, 283). The term “massively parallel” have been removed as they don’t significantly change our scientific findings.

      b. Line 67 (and others): "to identify ... for elimination of TNBC": while this may be its potential implication, this study has identified genes in (mostly) TNBC cell lines and cell line xenografts. Please rephrase to something more within the scope of this research.

      Manuscript edited as suggested (lines 68-69) as “we utilize CombiGEM-CRISPR technology to identify tyrosine kinase inhibitor combinations with synergistic effect in TNBC cell line and xenograft models for potential combinatorial therapy against TNBC.” We hope it satisfies the reviewer.

      c. Line 31 (and others): Please check the capitals of words describing inhibitors, and make them consistent (e.g. Imatinib written with capital I, other inhibitors without capitals).

      We thank the reviewer for catching this error. We changed all “imatinib” and “osimertinib” to lowercase.

      d. Line 71: "... combining PP2, saracatinib (FYN inhibitor), .." ..." Here it is not clear PP2 is a FYN inhibitor, and, as saracatinib is a well-known Src-inhibitor, it is not correct to just say "FYN inhibitor". Better to rephrase to something such as:  "combining PP2 (Lck/Fyn inhibitor), saracatinib (Src/FYN inhibitor).

      As reviewer noted, most Src family kinase inhibitors are not selective against specific member among other Src family members. Therefore, we changed line 73 to “PP2, saracatinib (Src family kinase / FYN inhibitor).”

      e. Line 81: "The resulting library enabled massively parallel screens of pairwise knockouts, .." To clarify this is for the selected kinases only: "The resulting library enabled screens of pairwise knockouts of the 76 tyrosine kinase genes, .."

      Manuscript edited as suggested by the reviewer in line 86.

      f. Line 88 (and others): "after infection" consider rephrasing to "after transduction" as this is more commonly used when using lentiviral vectors only.

      We thank the reviewer for this. Every “infection” that designates lentiviral transduction were changed to “transduction”.

      g. Line 97-99: While being described as "good" correlation, a correlation of the same sgRNA pair, yet in a different order, of r=0.5 does not seem to be very good, neither does a correlation of r=0.74 for biological replicates. Please consider describing in a less subjective way.

      We removed the subjective terms and changed the manuscript as follows: “sgRNA pair (e.g., sgRNA-A + sgRNA-B and sgRNA-B + sgRNA-A) were positively correlated (r = 0.50) and were combined when calculating Z (Fig. S1D). The Z scores for three biological replicates were also correlated with r = 0.74 between replicates #2 and #3 (Fig. S1E).” in lines 97-101.

      h. Lines 92-96 and lines 102-115: The results section here contains quite a lot of technical information. While some information may be directly needed to understand the described results (such as a very short and simple explanation of how to interpret gene interaction score), other information may be more appropriate for the Methods section, to enhance the readability of the paper. Consider simplifying here and giving a more detailed overview in the Methods section. Also, the text is not entirely clear. You seem to give two separate explanations of how the GI scores were calculated (Starting in lines 106 and 111): please rephrase and clearly indicate the connections between those two explanations (in the Methods section).

      We thank the reviewer for valuable suggestion. We moved significant portions of the technical descriptions in methods section. We also clarified the text regarding the procedures for calculating GI scores in lines 385-387.

      i. Line 142: "These findings suggest that gene A could represent an attractive drug target.." "Gene A" should be "FYN"?

      We thank the reviewer for catching this. Indeed, it is “FYN” and we changed it in line 154.

      j. Line 149: Introduce Saracatinib, and make the reader aware that it actually mostly targets Src, and FYN with lower affinity.

      We newly added text in lines 73 and 164 to indicate that saracatinib is an inhibitor against Src family kinases.

      k. Line 469: "by the two sgRNA." "by the two sgRNAs".

      Corrected

      l. Throughout text/figures/figure legends, please check for consistency in the naming of cell lines, compounds, referring to figures etc. (E.g. MDA-MB-231/MDA MB 231/MDAMB-231 ; Fig. 1/Figure 1).

      Corrected. Thank you for catching this error.

      m. In Methods, frequently ug or uL are used instead of µg or µL

      Corrected.

      n. Legend Figure 5: Clarify what A, G, I, D, and P mean.

      Corrected in line 685-686 to: “A: NVP-ADW742, G: gefitinib, I: imatinib, D: doxorubicin, P: Paclitaxel.”

      o. Line 303: What is meant by: "The six variable nucleotides were added in reverse primer for multiplexing". Could you clarify this in the text?

      We apologize for confusion the six nucleotides is index sequence for multiplexed run in NGS. The text in lines 373-374 is edited to: “The six nucleotides described as “NNNNNN” in reverse primer above represents unique index to identify biological replicates in multiplexed NGS run.”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      To enhance the robustness of the conclusions drawn from this study, certain concerns merit attention.

      Concerns:

      (1) Line 130 indicates that eight synergistic target gene combinations were validated. It would be helpful to clarify the criteria used to select these gene pairs and provide the rationale for studying these specific combinations of genes.

      In fact, we had selected the gene pairs that we had the sgRNAs against available when we performed the experiments, so we did not have very good reason to explain our selections. Instead we added a brief discussion in lines 304-306 that further validations are required for the gene pairs not experimentally tested.

      (2) According to Figure 2C, FYN was identified as crucial among the 30 gene pairs, and its upregulation in TNBC prompted further investigation. It would be informative to discuss the expression levels of TEK, FRK, and FGFR2 in TNBC and explain why these nodes were not studied. Is there existing evidence demonstrating the superiority of FYN over these other genes?

      The similar concern was raised by reviewer #1. The expression levels of TEK, FRK and FGFR2 were relatively low in MDA-MB-231 and TNBCs in general, and we were concerned about the generalizability of these targets for treating TNBC. While the validation of these genes for possible synthetic lethality may lead to valuable insight, this may be beyond scope of this paper. This concern is newly discussed in result and discussion sections in lines 150-154.

      (3) The screening process employed only one cell line, and validation was conducted with only one cell line (Figure 2A). Consider supplementing the findings with more convincing evidence from other breast cancer cell lines to strengthen the conclusions.

      Although the CRISPR screens and primary validations were done with only one cell line, further validations with drug combinations were done in independent cancer cell lines such as Hs578T (figures S4E-J). Also, the possible association of FYN expression in drug tolerant cells were also demonstrated in lung cancer cells. We hope this satisfies the reviewer.

      (4) The network analysis in Figure 2C lacks a description of the methodology used. It would be beneficial to provide a brief explanation of the methods employed for this analysis.

      The network analysis was done manually with the size of each node proportional to the number of gene pairs. We newly added text in figure legend in line 638 to clarify this.

      (5) The significance of gene A mentioned in line 142 is unclear. Please provide a clear explanation or context for the importance of this gene.

      This is a mistake that were also pointed out by reviewer #1. The “gene A” should have been “FYN”. We corrected this in line 154.

      6. In Figure 2J and Figure 2K, it would be more informative to measure the phosphorylation levels of FYN and SRC rather than just their baseline levels. Consider revising the figures accordingly.

      We thank the reviewer for a careful comment. We newly provide supplementary figure S5A to show that phosphorylation level of FYN is increased, but this increase was proportional to the increase in FYN protein level, so the ratio of pFYN/FYN did not change significantly. We discussed this result in lines 187-190.

      (7) Figure S4B lacks biological replicates, which could impact the reliability of the experimental results. Consider adding biological replicates to enhance the robustness of the findings.

      This was also pointed out by reviewer #1. Instead of performing qPCR for all drugs, we focused on validating the decrease in FYN mRNA level for drug combinations that synergistically kill cancer cells. We were also aiming to identify direct mediator of FYN mRNA upregulation, so we focused on drug combination that involves inhibitor of epigenetic regulator that promotes transcription. To this end, we tested the impact of GSK-J4(KDM6 inhibitor) and pinometostat (DOT1L inhibitor) in combination with TKI in regulating FYN expression level. Notably, while GSK-J4 attenuated FYN mRNA accumulation by NVP-ADW742 treatment, pinometostat failed to do so (figure S5C). We newly described these results in lines 192-197 in results section.

      (8) Line 186 indicates that KDM3 knockout was not tested in Figure S5A. It would be helpful to provide an explanation for this omission or consider including the data if available.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. The T7 endonuclease assay results for KDM3, KDM4 and PHF8 are added in figure S6B. All guide RNAs used in the study efficiently generated indel mutations.

      (9) In line 206, KDM4A is introduced, but Figures 3J and 3M had already pointed to KDM4A. The authors did not analyze the ChIP results for other members of the KDM4 family at this point. Please address this inconsistency and provide a rationale for focusing on KDM4A. Additionally, in Figure 3M, consider adding peak labeling to the enriched portion for clarity.

      We welcome the reviewer’s careful concern. KDM4 family enzymes perform catalytically identical reactions, and are thought to be redundant. Therefore, we judged that the most abundantly expression genes among KDM4 family should be the primary target to focus on. To this end, we analyzed the expression levels of KDM4 family genes in supplementary figure S6A. Indeed KDM4A expression was the highest among other KDM4 family genes. We discussed this in results section in lines 218-220.

      (10) The author only indicated the relationship between the H3K9me3 level in the enhancer region and FYN expression. It would be valuable to verify the activity of the enhancers and investigate additional markers such as H3K27ac and H3K4me1. Consider discussing these aspects to provide a more comprehensive understanding.

      Since we and others had shown that histone dementhylases are increased upon drug treatment, we focused on histone methylation marks which are associated with gene repression and whose removal by demethylases are associated with drug resistance. To this end, KDM6 demethylases removing H3K27me3 may serve as attractive alternative. In our newly added supplementary figure S6E, ADW742 treatment did not decrease H3K27me3 level in FYN promoter, indicating that H3K9me3 may be the dominant epigenetic change that modulates FYN expression upon drug treatment. This was briefly discussed in lines 233-235.

      (11) In Figure 4A, the addition of the drug alone does not inhibit tumor growth. Please provide an explanation for this result and consider discussing potential reasons for the observed lack of inhibition.

      The drug dose was adjusted carefully to minimize tumor shrinkage by single drug so that synergistic tumor shrinkage can be clearer.

      (12) Line 208 indicates missing parentheses in the text describing Figure 4C. Please correct the text accordingly to ensure clarity.

      Corrected. Thank you for catching this error.

      (13) The figure legends for Figures 5E, F, G, and H contain errors. Please correct the figure legends to accurately describe the respective figures.

      We thank the reviewer for catching this error. We have changed the figure legends in lines 691-697 to accurately describe the figures.

      (14) It may be beneficial for the authors to divide the results section into several subsections and add headings to improve the overall understanding of the findings.

      This is an excellent suggestion. We divided our results section into subsections and added headings in lines 80, 141, 181, 237 and 251 to help readers understand our findings.

      (15) The authors should include the sgRNA sequences used for gene targeting, along with details of the target genes and negative/positive controls, in the Supplementary Materials to enhance reproducibility and transparency.

      This is a critical point for improving reproducibility of our work. The sgRNA sequences used in the study are newly added in supplementary table S3.

      (16) The resolution of the figures in the Supplementary Materials is too low, which may impede the authors' ability to interpret the data. Consider providing higher-resolution figures for better readability.

      We had similar concern posed by reviewer #1, we provided higher resolution image for all main and supplementary figures.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors constructed a novel HSV-based therapeutic vaccine to cure SIV in a primate model. The novel HSV vector is deleted for ICP34.5. Evidence is given that this protein blocks HIV reactivation by interference with the NF-kB pathway. The deleted construct supposedly would reactivate SIV from latency. The SIV genes carried by the vector ought to elicit a strong immune response. Together the HSV vector would elicit a shock and kill effect. This is tested in a primate model.

      Thank you for your kind comments and suggestions, which are very helpful in improving our manuscript. We have carefully revised our manuscript and performed additional experiments accordingly, and we now think this version has been substantially improved for your reconsideration.

      Strengths and weaknesses:

      (1) Deleting ICP34.5 from the HSV construct has a very strong effect on HIV reactivation. Why is no eGFP readout given in Figure 1C as for WT HSV? The mechanism underlying increased activation by deleting ICP34.5 is only partially explored. Overexpression of ICP34.5 has a much smaller effect (reduction in reactivation) than deletion of ICP34.5 (strong activation); so the story seems incomplete.

      Thank you for your careful review and kind reminder.

      (1) We are sorry for the misunderstanding of Figure 1C. In the experiment of Figue 1C, we used an HSV-1 17 strain containing GFP (HSV-GFP) and HSV-DICP34.5 (recombinant HSV-1 17 strain with ICP34.5 deletion based on HSV-GFP) to reactivate the HIV latency cell line (J-Lat 10.6 cell). Since detecting GFP cannot distinguish between HSV infection and HIV reactivation, we assessed the reactivation by measuring the mRNA levels of HIV LTR upon stimulation with either HSV-GFP or HSV-ΔICP34.5. Actually, in Figure 1B, we had verified the reactivation efficacy by infecting J-Lat 10.6 cells with the HSV-1 17 strain containing GFP (HSV-GFP) and found significant upregulation of mRNA levels of HIV-1 LTR, Tat, Gag, Vif, and Vpr. We have adjusted the corresponding descriptions accordingly in the revised manuscript.

      (2) We agree with your insightful mention that the mechanism underlying increased activation by HSV-ΔICP34.5 is worthy to be further explored in the future study. In this study, we found that ICP34.5 play an antagonistic role with the reactivation of HIV latency by HSV-1 mainly through the modulation of host NF-κB and HSF1 pathways, while HSV-1 (especially HSV-ΔICP34.5) might reactivate HIV latency through NF-κB, HSF1, and other yet-to-be-determined mechanisms. Thus, ICP34.5 overexpression can only a partial effect on the reduction of the HIV latency reactivation by HSV-1. We have mentioned this issue in the revised “Discussion section”. Intriguingly, these findings collectively indicated that ICP34.5 might play an antagonistic role in the reactivation of HIV by HSV-1, and thus our modified HSV-DICP34.5 constructs can effectively reactivate HIV/SIV latency through the release of imprisonment from ICP34.5. However, ICP34.5 overexpression had only a partial effect on the reduction of the HIV latency reactivation, indicating that HSV-DICP34.5-based constructs can also reactivate HIV latency through other yet-to-be-determined mechanisms. (Lines 334 to 340).

      (2) No toxicity data are given for deleting ICP34.5. How specific is the effect for HIV reactivation? An RNA seq analysis is required to show the effect on cellular genes.

      Thank you for your questions and suggestions.

      (1) It’s well known that ICP34.5 is a neurotoxicity factor that can antagonize host immune responses, and previous studies (in gene therapy and oncolytic virotherapy) have shown that the safety of recombinant HSV-based vector can be improved by deleting ICP34.5. In this study, we also found that HSV-DICP34.5 exhibited lower virulence and replication ability than its parental strain (HSV-GFP) (Figure 1D, Figure S1). In addition, HSV-DICP34.5 induced a lower level of inflammatory cytokines (including IL-6, IL-1β, and TNF-α) in primary CD4+ T cells from PLWH compared to HSV-GFP stimulation, likely due to its lower virulence and replication ability (Figure 1I-K). In addition, the CD4+ /CD8+ T cell ratio (Figure 5I) and body weight (Figure S9) after treatment were effectively ameliorated in the SIV-infected macaques of the ART+HSV-DICP34.5-sPD1-SIVgag/SIVenv group. Our data also demonstrated that there was no significant effect on the cell composition of peripheral blood in the SIV-infected macaques of ART+HSV-sPD1-SIVgag/SIVenv group (Figure S10). Thus, these data suggest the safety of HSV-DICP34.5 in PLWH might be tolerable. We have added the corresponding description in the revised manuscript.

      (2) In our study, we found both adenovirus and vaccinia virus cannot reactivate HIV latency (Figure S3). In addition, the deletion of ICP0 gene from HSV-1 diminished the reactivation effect of HIV latency by HSV-1 (Figure S4). Thus, these data suggested the reactivation of HIV latency by HSV-1 might be virus-specific. Of course, this might be further investigated in future studies. We have added the corresponding description in the revised manuscript.

      (3) To explore the mechanism of reactivating viral latency by HSV-DICP34.5-based constructs, we performed RNA-seq analysis (Figure S5). We have added the corresponding description accordingly in the revised manuscript.

      (3) The primate groups are too small and the results to variable to make averages. In Figure 5, the group with ART and saline has two slow rebounders. It is not correct to average those with a single quick rebounder. Here the interpretation is NOT supported by the data.

      We agree with you that this is a pilot study with limited numbers of rhesus macaques. Although the number of macaques was relatively limited, these nine macaques were distributed evenly based on the background level of age, sex, weight, CD4 count, and viral load (VL) (Table S2). All SIV-infected macaques used in this study had a long history of SIV infection and had several courses of ART therapy, which mimics treatment of chronic HIV-1 infection in humans. These macaques were infected with SIVmac239 for more than 5 years, and highly pathogenic SIV-infected macaques have been well-validated as a stringent model to recapitulate HIV-1 pathogenesis and persistence during ART therapy in humans. Indeed, in our Chinese rhesus model, ART treatment effectively suppressed SIV infection to undetectable levels in plasma, and upon ART discontinuation, virus rapidly rebounded, which is very similar with that in ART-treated HIV patients. We think the results of this pilot study were very promising for further studies which will be expanded the scale of animals and then to preclinical and clinical study in our next projects. Thank you for your understanding.

      As for your question regarding “the two animals with low VL and slow rebound”, our explanation is following: As mentioned above, these macaques were distributed evenly based on the background level of CD4 count and VL (Table S2), and then there were different change of viral load and viral rebound in different groups. Thus, we think these data can support our interpretation. Moreover, our conclusion can also be supported from at least three evidences.

      (1) The VL in the ART+saline group promptly rebounded after ART discontinuation, with an average 8.63-fold increase in the rebounded peak VL compared with the pre-ART VL (Figure 5A, D and E). However, plasma VL in the ART+HSV-sPD1-SIVgag/SIVenv group exhibited a delayed rebound interval (Figure 5B-D).

      (2) There was a lower rebounded peak VL than pre-ART VL in the ART+HSV-sPD1-SIVgag/SIVenv group (average 12.20-fold decrease), while a higher rebounded peak VL than pre-ART VL in the ART+HSV-empty group (average 2.74-fold increase) (Figure 5E).

      (3) We found significant suppression of total SIV DNA and integrated SIV DNA provirus in the ART+HSV-sPD1-SIVgag/SIVenv group. However, the copies of the SIV DNA provirus were significantly improved in the ART+HSV-empty group and ART+saline group (Figure 5F-G).

      Thank you for your understanding.

      Discussion

      HSV vectors are mainly used in cancer treatment partially due to induced inflammation. Whether these are suitable to cure PLWH without major symptoms is a bit questionable to me and should at least be argued for.

      Thank you for your kind question comment and question. We confirmed the enhanced reactivation of HIV latency by HSV-∆ICP34.5 in primary CD4+ T cells from people living with HIV (PLWH) (Figure S2). As mentioned above, previous studies have shown that the safety of recombinant HSV-based vector can be improved by deleting ICP34.5. In this study, we also found that HSV-DICP34.5 exhibited lower virulence and replication ability than its parental strain (HSV-GFP) (Figure 1D, Figure S1). In addition, HSV-DICP34.5 induced a lower level of inflammatory cytokines (including IL-6, IL-1β, and TNF-α) in primary CD4+ T cells from PLWH compared to HSV-GFP stimulation, likely due to its lower virulence and replication ability (Figure 1I-K). In addition, the CD4+ /CD8+ T cell ratio (Figure 5I) and body weight (Figure S9) after treatment were effectively ameliorated in the SIV-infected macaques of the ART+HSV-DICP34.5-sPD1-SIVgag/SIVenv group. Our data also demonstrated that there was no significant effect on the cell composition of peripheral blood in the SIV-infected macaques of ART+HSV-sPD1-SIVgag/SIVenv group (Figure S10). Thus, these data suggest the safety of HSV-DICP34.5 in PLWH might be tolerable. We have added the corresponding description in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this article, Wen et. al. describe the development of a 'proof-of-concept' bi-functional vector based on HSV-deltaICP-34.5's ability to purge latent HIV-1 and SIV genomes from cells. They show that co-infection of latent J-lat T-cell lines with an HSV-deltaICP-34.5 vector can reactivate HIV-1 from a latent state. Over- or stable expression of ICP 34.5 ORF in these cells can arrest latent HIV-1 genomes from transcription, even in the presence of latency reversal agents. ICP34.5 can co-IP with- and de-phosphorylate IKKa/b to block its interaction with NF-k/B transcription factor. Additionally, ICP34.5 can interact with HSF1 which was identified by mass-spec. Thus, the authors propose that the latency reversal effect of HSV-deltaICP-34.5 in co-infected JLat cells is due to modulatory effects on the IKKa/b-NF-kB and PP1-HSF-1 pathway.

      Next, the authors cleverly construct a bifunctional HSV-based vector with deleted ICP34.5 and 47 ORFs to purge latency and avoid immunological refluxes, and additionally, expand the application of this construct as a vaccine by introducing SIV genes. They use this 'vaccine' in mouse models and show the expected SIV-immune responses. Experiments in rhesus macaques (RM), further elicit the potential for their approach to reactivate SIV genomes and at the same time block their replication by antibodies. What was interesting in the SIV experiments is that the dual-functional vector vaccine containing sPD1- and SIV Gag/Env ORFs effectively delayed SIV rebound in RMs and in some cases almost neutralized viral DNA copy detection in serum. Very promising indeed, however, there are some questions I wish the authors had explored to get answers to, detailed below.

      Overall, this is an elegant and timely work demonstrating the feasibility of reducing virus rebound in animals, with the potential to expand to clinical studies. The work was well-written, and sections were clearly discussed.

      Strengths:

      The work is well designed, rationale explained, and written very clearly for lay readers.<br /> Claims are adequately supported by evidence and well-designed experiments including controls.

      Thank you for your nice comments regarding our work.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) While the mechanism of ICP34.5 interaction and modulation of the NF-kB and HSF1 pathways are shown, this only proves ICP34.5 interactions but does not give away the mechanism of how the HSV-deltaICP-34.5 vector purges HIV-1 latency. What other components of the vector are required for latency reversal? Perhaps serial deletion experiments of the other ORFs in the HSV-deltaICP-34.5 vector might be revealing.

      Thank you for your valuable suggestion. In fact, we are currently further exploring some potential viral genes of HSV-1 that might play a role in the reactivation of HIV latency. We have found that the deletion of ICP0 gene from HSV-1 diminished the reactivation effect of HIV latency by HSV-1 (Figure S4), showing that ICP0 might play a vital role for the reactivation. Of course, this might be further investigated in future studies. We have added the corresponding description in the revised manuscript.

      (2) The efficacy of the HSV vaccine vectors was evaluated in Rhesus Macaque model animals. Animals were chronically infected with SIV (a parent of HIV), treated with ART, challenged with bi-functional HSV vaccine or controls, and discontinued treatment, and the resulting virus burden and immune responses were monitored. The animals showed SIV Gag and Env-specific immune responses, and delayed virus rebound (however rebound is still there), and below-detection viral DNA copies. What would make a more convincing argument to this reviewer will be data to demonstrate that after the bi-functional vaccine, the animals show overall reduction in the number of circulating latent cells. The feasibility of obtaining such a result is not clearly demonstrated.

      Thank you for your valuable mention. We have now provided more data about this issue. We found significant suppression of total SIV DNA and integrated SIV DNA provirus in the ART+HSV-sPD1-SIVgag/SIVenv group. However, the copies of the SIV DNA provirus were significantly improved in the ART+HSV-empty group and ART+saline group (Figure 5F-G). We have added the corresponding description in the revised manuscript.

      (3) The authors state that the reduced virus rebound detected following bi-functional vaccine delivery is due to latent genomes becoming activated and steady-state neutralization of these viruses by antibody response. This needs to be demonstrated. Perhaps cell-culture experiments from specimens taken from animals might help address this issue. In lab cultures one could create environments without antibody responses, under these conditions one would expect a higher level of viral loads to be released in response to the vaccine in question.

      Thanks for your kind mention and suggestion. We performed the following cell experiment to address this issue. Primary CD4+ T cells from people living with HIV (PLWH) were isolated, and then infected with HSV or HSV-∆ICP34.5 constructs. As expected, we confirmed the enhanced reactivation of HIV latency by HSV-∆ICP34.5 (Figure S2). Thank you.

      (4) How do the authors imagine neutralizing HIV-1 envelope epitopes by a similar strategy? A discussion of this point may also help.

      Thank you for your kind comment. We have added the corresponding discussion in the revised manuscript. “The current consensus on HIV/AIDS vaccines emphasizes the importance of simultaneously inducing broadly neutralizing antibodies and cellular immune responses. Therefore, we believe that incorporating the induction of broadly neutralizing antibodies into our future optimizing approaches may lead to better therapeutic outcomes.” (Lines 384 to 388)

      (5) I thought the empty HSV-vector control also elicited somewhat delayed kinetics in virus rebound and neutralization, can the authors comment on why this is the case?

      Thank you for your careful review and mention. We agree with you that the HSV-1 empty vector does exhibit somewhat a delayed rebound. We think the possible reason is: Although the empty HSV-vector cannot elicit SIV-specific CTL responses, it effectively activates the latent SIV reserviors, and then these activated virions can be partially killed by ART drugs. Therefore, even without carrying HIV/SIV antigens, somewhat delayed kinetics in virus rebound may be observed. Thank you.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The authors should provide toxicity data for HSV transduction after deleting ICP34.5 and provide an explanation of why overexpression of ICP34.5 has such a small effect.

      Thank you for your questions and suggestions. As mentioned above, we now provided data for the safety of HSV-DICP34.5-based constructs.

      (1) It’s well known that ICP34.5 is a neurotoxicity factor that can antagonize host immune responses, and previous studies (in gene therapy and oncolytic virotherapy) have shown that the safety of recombinant HSV-based vector can be improved by deleting ICP34.5. In this study, we also found that HSV-DICP34.5 exhibited lower virulence and replication ability than its parental strain (HSV-GFP) (Figure 1D, Figure S1). In addition, HSV-DICP34.5 induced a lower level of inflammatory cytokines (including IL-6, IL-1β, and TNF-α) in primary CD4+ T cells from PLWH compared to HSV-GFP stimulation, likely due to its lower virulence and replication ability (Figure 1I-K). In addition, the CD4+ /CD8+ T cell ratio (Figure 5I) and body weight (Figure S9) after treatment were effectively ameliorated in the SIV-infected macaques of the ART+HSV-DICP34.5-sPD1-SIVgag/SIVenv group. Our data also demonstrated that there was no significant effect on the cell composition of peripheral blood in the SIV-infected macaques of ART+HSV-sPD1-SIVgag/SIVenv group (Figure S10). Thus, these data suggest the safety of HSV-DICP34.5 in PLWH might be tolerable. We have added the corresponding description in the revised manuscript.

      (2) We agree with your insightful mention that the mechanism underlying increased activation by HSV-ΔICP34.5 is worthy to be further explored in the future study. In this study, we found that ICP34.5 play an antagonistic role with the reactivation of HIV latency by HSV-1 mainly through the modulation of host NF-κB and HSF1 pathways, while HSV-1 (especially HSV-ΔICP34.5) might reactivate HIV latency through NF-κB, HSF1, and other yet-to-be-determined mechanisms. Thus, ICP34.5 overexpression can only a partial effect on the reduction of the HIV latency reactivation by HSV-1. We have mentioned this issue in the revised “Discussion section”. “Intriguingly, these findings collectively indicated that ICP34.5 might play an antagonistic role in the reactivation of HIV by HSV-1, and thus our modified HSV-DICP34.5 constructs can effectively reactivate HIV/SIV latency through the release of imprisonment from ICP34.5. However, ICP34.5 overexpression had only a partial effect on the reduction of the HIV latency reactivation, indicating that HSV-DICP34.5-based constructs can also reactivate HIV latency through other yet-to-be-determined mechanisms.” (Lines 334 to 340).

      (2) How specific is the effect for HIV reactivation? An RNA seq analysis is required to show the effect on cellular genes.

      Thank you for your questions and suggestions.

      (1) In our study, we found both adenovirus and vaccinia virus cannot reactivate HIV latency (Figure S3). In addition, the deletion of ICP0 gene from HSV-1 diminished the reactivation effect of HIV latency by HSV-1 (Figure S4). Thus, these data suggested the reactivation of HIV latency by HSV-1 might be virus-specific. Of course, this might be further investigated in future studies. We have added the corresponding description in the revised manuscript.

      (2) To explore the mechanism of reactivating viral latency by HSV-DICP34.5-based constructs, we performed RNA-seq analysis (Figure S5). Results showed that there were numerous differentially expressed genes (DEGs) in response to HSV-ΔICP34.5 infection. Among them, 2288 genes were upregulated, and 611 genes were downregulated. GO analysis showed the enrichment of these DEGs in cellular cycle, cellular development, and cellular proliferation, and KEGG enrichment analysis indicated the enrichment in pathways such as cellular cycle and cytokine-cytokine receptor interaction. We have added the corresponding description accordingly in the revised manuscript.

      (3) A comparison in primates has to be given for constructs with or without ICP34.5 to validate cell culture data (what is an empty vector?)

      Thank you for your reminder. In the revised manuscript, we performed the following cell experiment to address this issue. Primary CD4+ T cells from people living with HIV (PLWH) were isolated, and then infected with HSV or HSV-∆ICP34.5 constructs. As expected, we confirmed the enhanced reactivation of HIV latency by HSV-∆ICP34.5 (Figure S2). Thank you.

      (4) Legends should be improved in writing and content.

      Thank you for your kind mention. In the revised version, we have improved both the manuscript content and the legends of all Figures have been carefully revised in writing and content. Thank you.

      (5) The primate groups should be enlarged before any reliable conclusions can be made. Inflammatory/tox data should be provided.

      Thank you for your question.

      (1) As mentioned above, we agree with you that this is a pilot study with limited numbers of rhesus macaques. Although the number of macaques was relatively limited, these nine macaques were distributed evenly based on the background level of age, sex, weight, CD4 count, and viral load (VL) (Table S2). All SIV-infected macaques used in this study had a long history of SIV infection and had several courses of ART therapy, which mimics treatment of chronic HIV-1 infection in humans. These macaques were infected with SIVmac239 for more than 5 years, and highly pathogenic SIV-infected macaques have been well-validated as a stringent model to recapitulate HIV-1 pathogenesis and persistence during ART therapy in humans. Indeed, in our Chinese rhesus model, ART treatment effectively suppressed SIV infection to undetectable levels in plasma, and upon ART discontinuation, virus rapidly rebounded, which is very similar with that in ART-treated HIV patients. We think the results of this pilot study were very promising for further studies which will be expanded the scale of animals and then to preclinical and clinical study in our next projects. Thank you for your understanding.

      (2) As well known, ICP34.5 is a neurotoxicity factor that can antagonize host immune responses, and previous studies have shown that the safety of recombinant HSV-based vector can be improved by deleting ICP34.5. In this study, we also found that HSV-DICP34.5 exhibited lower virulence and replication ability than its parental strain (HSV-GFP) (Figure 1D, Figure S1). In addition, HSV-DICP34.5 induced a lower level of inflammatory cytokines (including IL-6, IL-1β, and TNF-α) in primary CD4+ T cells from PLWH compared to HSV-GFP stimulation, likely due to its lower virulence and replication ability (Figure 1I-K). In addition, the CD4+ /CD8+ T cell ratio (Figure 5I) and body weight (Figure S9) after treatment were effectively ameliorated in the SIV-infected macaques of the ART+HSV-DICP34.5-sPD1-SIVgag/SIVenv group. Our data also demonstrated that there was no significant effect on the cell composition of peripheral blood in the SIV-infected macaques of ART+HSV-sPD1-SIVgag/SIVenv group (Figure S10). Thus, these data suggest the safety of HSV-DICP34.5 in PLWH might be tolerable. We have added the corresponding description in the revised manuscript.

      (6) Discuss the potential of inflammatory HSV vaccines to be used in PLWH without clinical symptoms.

      Thank you for your mention. As discussed above, we found that HSV-DICP34.5 exhibited lower virulence and replication ability than its parental strain (Figure 1D, Figure S1), and we also found that HSV-DICP34.5 induced a lower level of inflammatory cytokines (including IL-6, IL-1β, and TNF-α) in primary CD4+ T cells from PLWH compared to HSV-GFP stimulation, likely due to its lower virulence and replication ability (Figure 1I-K). In addition, the CD4+ /CD8+ T cell ratio (Figure 5I) and body weight (Figure S9) after treatment were effectively ameliorated in the SIV-infected macaques of the ART+HSV-DICP34.5-sPD1-SIVgag/SIVenv group. Our data also demonstrated that there was no significant effect on the cell composition of peripheral blood in the SIV-infected macaques of ART+HSV-sPD1-SIVgag/SIVenv group (Figure S10). Thus, these data suggest the safety of HSV-DICP34.5 in PLWH might be tolerable. We have added the corresponding description in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I think the authors have done due diligence to the experimental system, and collected evidence to show the feasibility of delaying virus rebound in macaques. However, I would encourage the authors to perform experiments that can back up the claim that delayed virus rebound is due to neutralization effects, or perhaps due to a reduction in viral reservoir. I believe insights into this process will add rigor, and push the relevance of the study to the next level.

      Thank you for your nice comment and valuable suggestion. We have now provided more data about this issue. We found significant suppression of total SIV DNA and integrated SIV DNA provirus in the ART+HSV-sPD1-SIVgag/SIVenv group. However, the copies of the SIV DNA provirus were significantly improved in the ART+HSV-empty group and ART+saline group (Figure 5F-G). We also discussed that incorporating the induction of broadly neutralizing antibodies into our future optimizing approaches may lead to better therapeutic outcomes in the revised Discussion section. We have added the corresponding description in the revised manuscript. Thank you.

      Altogether, all of the above comments and suggestions are very helpful in improving our manuscript. We have taken these comments into account seriously and try our best to address these questions point-by-point. After making extensive revisions, we now submit this revised manuscript for your re-consideration. Thank you again for all of your comments and suggestions.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study uses single nucleus multiomics to profile the transcriptome and chromatin accessibility of mouse XX and XY primordial germ cells (PGCs) at three time-points spanning PGC sexual differentiation and entry of XX PGCs into meiosis (embryonic days 11.5-13.5). They find that PGCs can be clustered into sub-populations at each time point, with higher heterogeneity among XX PGCs and more switch-like developmental transitions evident in XY PGCs. In addition, they identify several transcription factors that appear to regulate sex-specific pathways as well as cell-cell communication pathways that may be involved in regulating XX vs XY PGC fate transitions. The findings are important and overall rigorous. The study could be further improved by a better connection to the biological system, including the addition of experiments to validate the 'omics-based findings in vivo and putting the transcriptional heterogeneity of XX PGCs in the context of findings that meiotic entry is spatially asynchronous in the fetal ovary. Overall, this study represents an advance in germ cell regulatory biology and will be a highly used resource in the field of germ cell development.

      Strengths:

      (1) The multiomics data is mostly rigorously collected and carefully interpreted.

      (2) The dataset is extremely valuable and helps to answer many long-standing questions in the field.

      (3) In general, the conclusions are well anchored in the biology of the germ line in mammals.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The nature of replicates in the data and how they are used in the analysis are not clearly presented in the main text or methods. To interpret the results, it is important to know how replicates were designed and how they were used. Two "technical" replicates are cited but it is not clear what this means.

      The two independent technical replicates comprised different pools of paired gonads. This sentence was added to the methods section of the revised manuscript.

      (2) Transcriptional heterogeneity among XX PGCs is mentioned several times (e.g., lines 321-323) and is a major conclusion of the paper. It has been known for a long time that XX PGCs initiate meiosis in an anterior-to-posterior wave in the fetal ovary starting around E13.5. Some heterogeneity in the XX PGC populations could be explained by spatial position in the ovary without having to invoke novel subpopulations.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this important biological phenomenon. We also recognize that transcriptional heterogeneity among XX PGCs is likely due to the anterior-to-posterior wave of meiotic initiation in E13.5 ovaries and highlight this possibility in our manuscript. However, since our study utilizes single-nucleus RNA-sequencing and not spatial transcriptomics, we are not able to capture the spatial location of the XX PGCs analyzed in our dataset. As such, our analysis applied clustering tools to classify the populations of XX PGCs captured in our dataset. 

      (3) There is essentially no validation of any of the conclusions. Heterogeneity in the expression of a given marker could be assessed by immunofluorescence or RNAscope.

      In our revised manuscript, we included immunofluorescence staining of potential candidate factors involved in PGC sex determination, such as PORCN and TFAP2C. Testing and optimizing antibodies for the targets identified in this study are ongoing efforts in our lab and we look forward to sharing our results with the research community.

      (4) The paper sometimes suffers from a problem common to large resource papers, which is that the discussion of specific genes or pathways seems incomplete. An example here is from the analysis of the regulation of the Bnc2 locus, which seems superficial. Relatedly, although many genes and pathways are nominated for important PGC functions, there is no strong major conclusion from the paper overall.

      In this manuscript, we set out to identify candidate factors, some already known and many others unknown, involved in the developmental pathways of PGC sex determination using computational tools. Our goal, as a research group and with future collaborators, is to screen these interesting candidates and discover their function in the primordial germ cell. Our research, presented in this study, represents a launching pad for which to identify future projects that will investigate these factors in further detail.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript by Alexander et al describes a careful and rigorous application of multiomics to mouse primordial germ cells (PGCs) and their surrounding gonadal cells during the period of sex differentiation.

      Strengths:

      In thoughtfully designed figures, the authors identify both known and new candidate gene regulatory networks in differentiating XX and XY PGCs and sex-specific interactions of PGCs with supporting cells. In XY germ cells, novel findings include the predicted set of TFs regulating Bnc2, which is known to promote mitotic arrest, as well as the TFs POU6F1/2 and FOXK2 and their predicted targets that function in mitosis and signal transduction. In XX germ cells, the authors deconstruct the regulation of the premeiotic replication regulator Stra8, which reveals TFs involved in meiosis, retinoic acid signaling, pluripotency, and epigenetics among predictions; this finding, along with evidence supporting the regulatory potential of retinoic acid receptors in meiotic gene expression is an important addition to the debate over the necessity of retinoic acid in XX meiotic initiation. In addition, a self-regulatory network of other TFs is hypothesized in XX differentiating PGCs, including TFAP2c, TCF5, ZFX, MGA, and NR6A1, which is predicted to turn on meiotic and Wnt signaling targets. Finally, analysis of PGC-support cell interactions during sex differentiation reveals more interactions in XX, via WNTs and BMPs, as well as some new signaling pathways that predominate in XY PGCs including ephrins, CADM1, Desert Hedgehog, and matrix metalloproteases. This dataset will be an excellent resource for the community, motivating functional studies and serving as a discovery platform.

      Weaknesses:

      My one major concern is that the conclusion that PGC sex differentiation (as read out by transcription) involves chromatin priming is overstated. The evidence presented in the figures includes a select handful of genes including Porcn, Rimbp1, Stra8, and Bnc2 for which chromatin accessibility precedes expression. Given that the authors performed all of their comparisons between XX versus XY datasets at each timepoint, have they missed an important comparison that would be a more direct test of chromatin priming: between timepoints for each sex? Furthermore, it remains possible that common mechanisms of differentiation to XX and XY could be missing from this analysis that focused on sexspecific differences.

      We thank the reviewer for their thoughtful assessment and suggestions, as stated here. We note that chromatin priming in PGCs prior to sex determination is a well-documented research finding (see references below), that is further supported by our single-nucleus multiomics data. To support these findings previously stated in the scientific literature, we included data demonstrating the asynchronous correlation between chromatin accessibility and gene expression during PGC sex determination. Specifically, we investigated the associations of differentially accessible chromatin peaks with differentially expressed gene expression for each PGC type (between sexes and across embryonic stages) using computational tools and methods that are well-established and applied by the research community. In our manuscript, we note that the patterns we identified support the potential role of chromatin priming in PGC sex determination. Nevertheless, we further highlight that a comprehensive profile of 3D chromatin structure and enhancer-promoter contacts in differentiating PGCs is needed to fully understand how changes to chromatin facilitate PGC sex determination.

      References:

      (1) Chen, M., et al. Integration of single-cell transcriptome and chromatin accessibility of early gonads development among goats, pigs, macaques, and humans. Cell Reports 41 (2022).

      (2) Huang, T.-C. et al. Sex-specific chromatin remodelling safeguards transcription in germ cells. Nature 600, 737–742 (2021).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Alexander et al. reported the gene-regulatory networks underpinning sex determination of murine primordial germ cells (PGCs) through single-nucleus multiomics, offering a detailed chromatin accessibility and gene expression map across three embryonic stages in both male (XY) and female (XX) mice. It highlights how regulatory element accessibility may precede gene expression, pointing to chromatin accessibility as a primer for lineage commitment before differentiation. Sexual dimorphism in these elements and gene expression increases over time, and the study maps transcription factors regulating sexually dimorphic genes in PGCs, identifying sex-specific enrichment in various transcription factors. Strengths:

      The study includes step-wise multiomic analysis with some computational approach to identify candidate TFs regulating XX and XY PGC gene expression, providing a detailed timeline of chromatin accessibility and gene expression during PGC development, which identifies previously unknown PGC subpopulations and offers a multimodal reference atlas of differentiating PGC clusters. Furthermore, the study maps a complex network of transcription factors associated with sex determination in PGCs, adding depth to our understanding of these processes.

      Weaknesses:

      While the multiomics approach is powerful, it primarily offers correlational insights between chromatin accessibility, gene expression, and transcription factor activity, without direct functional validation of identified regulatory networks.

      As stated in our response above to a similar concern, we note that our research study represents a launching pad for which to identify future projects that will investigate candidates that may be involved in PGC sex determination, in further detail. With this rich dataset in hand, our goal in future research projects is to screen these candidates and discover their function in PGCs. 

      Response to Recommendations

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Clarify at first introduction how combined ATAC-seq/RNA-seq mulitomics libraries were prepared, including if ATAC and RNA-seq data are from the same cell.

      This information was added to the introduction of the revised manuscript.

      (2) Clarify what the two technical replicates represent. Are they two libraries from the same gonad or the same pool of gonads? Are they from 2 different gonads?

      The two independent technical replicates comprised different pools of paired gonads. This sentence was added to the methods section of the revised manuscript.

      (3) In Supplemental Figure 1, there is substantial variation in the number of unique snATAC-seq fragments between some conditions. Could this create a systematic bias that affects clustering?

      We recognize the concern that substantial variation in the number of unique snATAC-seq fragments between conditions could potentially create a systematic bias that affects clustering. However, we analyzed our snATAC-seq dataset with Signac, which performs term frequency-inverse document frequency (TF-IDF) normalization. This is a process that normalizes across cells to correct for differences in cellular sequencing depth. Given that sequencing depth was taken into account in our normalization and clustering procedures, and that the unbiased clustering of PGCs also reflects the sex and embryonic stage of PGCs, we are confident that the clustering of the snATAC-seq datasets closely reflects the biological variability present in the PGCs collected.

      References:

      Signac Website:  https://stuartlab.org/signac/articles/pbmc_vignette

      Stuart, T., Srivastava, A., Madad, S., Lareau, C. A., & Satija, R. (2021). Single-cell chromatin state analysis with Signac. Nature methods, 18(11), 1333-1341.

      (4) In Figures 2a, 2e, 3a, and 3e, the visualization scheme is very difficult to follow. It's very hard to see the colors corresponding to average expression for many genes because the circles are so small. In addition, the yellow color is hard to see and makes it hard to estimate the size of the circle since the boundaries can be indistinct. I recommend using a different visualization scheme and/or set of size scales be used.

      In Figures 2a, 2e, 3a, and 3e, we chose this color palette to be inclusive of viewers who are colorblind. The chosen colors are visible on both a computer screen and on printed paper. We also included a legend of the color scale and dot size representing the average expression and percent of cells expressing the gene, respectively. If the color cannot be seen, it is because the cell population is not expressing the gene.

      (5) Perform in vivo validation (immunofluorescence or RNAscope) of at least some targets implicated in PGC development by this study.

      Such validations (immunofluorescence staining of PORCN and TFAP2C) are now included in Figure 4 and the supplement.

      (6) In line 351, the authors state that "we observed a strong demarcation between XX and XY PGCs at E12.5-E13.5." But in Figure 1j it looks like a reasonably high fraction of both XX and XY E12.5 cells are in cluster 1, which should mean that there is some overlap.

      While it is true that Figure 1j shows overlap of both XX and XY E12.5 cells in cluster 1, we were commenting on the separation of E12.5 XX (clusters 4 and 5) and E12.5 XY (clusters 8 and 9) PGCs. We have modified the sentence beginning at line 351 to state that the separation between XX and XY PGCs occurs at E13.5.

      (7) In lines 404-405: "We first linked snATAC-seq peaks to XY PGC functional genes". It is important to know how the peaks were linked to genes.

      We added the following sentence to address this comment: “Peak-to-gene linkages were determined using Signac functionalities and were derived from the correlation between peak accessibility and the intensity of gene expression.”

      (8) In Supplemental Figure 5c, the XX E11.5 condition has a substantially higher fraction of ATAC peaks at promoter regions compared to the others. Does this have statistical and biological significance?

      This is an interesting observation beyond the scope of our manuscript. Many interesting questions arise from this study and it is our plan to investigate further in the future. 

      (9) Line 885: "The increased number of DA peaks at E13.5 may be the result of changes to chromatin structure as XX PGCs enter meiotic prophase I"; but in Figure 4b, there's only a modest increase in DAP number from E12.5 to E13.5 in XX PGCs, compared to a massive gain in XY PGCs.

      In our manuscript, we comment on both phenomena: the doubling of differentially accessible peaks in XX PGCs from E12.5 to E13.5 and the massive increase in differentially accessible peaks in XY PGCs from E12.5 to E13.5. In our description of these results, we propose several hypotheses leading to these increases in differentially accessible peaks. As such, it cannot be ruled out that the changes to chromatin structure that occur during meiotic prophase I contribute to the gain in differentially accessible peaks in XX PGCs at E13.5, and we included this statement in the manuscript accordingly.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The methods state at line 141 that nuclei with mitochondrial reads of more than 25% were removed, however our understanding from the Bioconductor manual and companion manuscript (Amezquita, R.A., Lun, A.T.L., Becht, E. et al. Orchestrating single-cell analysis with Bioconductor. Nat Methods 17, 137-145 (2020). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41592-019-0654-x) is that snRNA-seq approaches remove mitochondrial transcripts entirely and datasets containing mitochondrial transcripts are thought to feature incompletely stripped nuclei. It is thought that mitochondrial transcripts participating in nuclear import may remain hanging on to the nuclear envelope and get encapsulated into GEMs. If the mitochondrial read cutoff of 25% was used intentionally to keep this potentially contaminating signal, please justify why this was done for this dataset.

      We agree with the reviewer that the presence of mitochondrial transcripts may be potentially contaminating signal. In our preprocessing steps, we removed the mitochondrial genes and transcripts from our datasets so that they would not influence or affect our analyses. The following sentence was added to the methods section on snRNA-seq data processing: “Mitochondrial genes and transcripts were removed from the snRNA-seq datasets to eliminate any potentially contaminating signal.”

      (2) Methods line 227: please include log2fold change and p-adjusted value cutoffs for GO enrichment.

      We used clusterprofiler for our GO enrichment analysis. Our GO enrichment analysis did not include a log2fold change analysis and the p-adjusted value cutoff is stated in the methods.

      (3) Results line 310: the claim that "At E12.5-E13.5, XY PGCs converged onto a single distinct population (cluster 7), indicating less transcriptional diversity among E12.5-E13.5 XY PGCs when compared to E12.5E13.5 XX PGCs (Fig1d)" would be strengthened if the authors quantified transcriptional distance with distance metrics such as euclidean or cosine distance.

      We used a clustering approach to gain insights into the transcriptional diversity of PGC populations. Using an additional metric, such as Euclidean or cosine distance, would not provide meaningful information not already achieved by clustering or change the conclusions presented in the manuscript.

      (4) Results line 317: the authors allude to Lars2 defining clusters 2 & 3 as a marker gene, but it is not clear why this is highlighted until the reader reaches the discussion, which alludes to the published role of Lars2 in reproduction. Please consider moving this sentence to the results section for clarity and perhaps expanding the discussion on the meaning.

      To provide clarity, we added the statement “genes with reported roles in reproduction” to the results section.

      (5) In Figure 2a, why do the authors choose to focus on Zkscan5 in XY PGCs when it is expressed by such a small portion of cells (<25%)? Do they assume that this is due to dropouts?

      We chose to focus on Zkscan5 as an example because of its enriched and differential expression in male PGCs, the motif for Zkscan5 is not enriched in female PGCs, and the reported roles of Zkscan5 in regulating cellular proliferation and growth. Zkscan5 is an example of how candidate genes can be identified for further investigation.

      (6) Line 461: "the population of E13.5 XX PGCs displaying the strongest Stra8 expression levels corresponded to the same population of XX PGCs with the highest module score of early meiotic prophase I genes (Figure 3c; Supplementary Fig. 3a-b)". However did the authors also consider examining the Stra8+ XX PGCs that do not robustly express meiotic genes to understand more about their differentiation potential?

      We are thankful to the reviewer for this suggestion. However, this research question is beyond the scope of the manuscript. We plan to investigate further in future research studies.

      (7) Line 505: "when we searched for the presence of RA receptor motifs in peaks linked to genes related to meiosis and female sex determination, we found that Stra8, Rec8, Rnf2, Sycp1, Sycp2, Ccnb3, and Zglp1 contain the RA receptor motifs in their regulatory sequences (Supplementary Figure 4g)." My read of the text is that the authors are not taking a side on the RA and meiosis controversy, but rather trying to reveal what the data can tell us, and the answer is that there is a strong signature linking RA to meiotic genes, which supports this as a valid biological pathway. But what is the strength of the RA>meiosis pathway compared to other mechanisms (which must be functioning in the triple receptor KO)? Perhaps the authors could take this analysis further with the following questions: (1) ask whether meiotic genes are more enriched in RA motifs compared to other expressed genes or other motifs (2) compare the strength of peak-gene correlations for all peaks containing RA receptor motifs vs. those with peaks for Zglp1, Rnf2, etc binding. The strengths of these correlations could provide clues to how much gene expression varies in response to RA exposure vs. modulation of these other factors and thus tell us something about how much RA is playing a role.

      We agree with the reviewer that this is a very interesting and important question. We also thank the reviewer for their thoughtful suggestions on the types of bioinformatics analyses that could answer this question. However, the section on RA signaling during PGC sex determination is only a small part of the manuscript and would be better analyzed in greater detail in a future research study or publication.

      (8) The shift from promoters in E11.5 XX PGCs to distal intergenic regions is fascinating. What can we learn about epigenetic reprogramming/methylation changes across gene bodies? 

      We agree with the reviewer that this is an interesting question about gene regulation in E11.5 XX PGCs. However, we prefer to analyze the epigenetic reprogramming changes across gene bodies in this cell population in additional research studies. Our purpose and goal for this section was to link differentially accessible chromatin peaks with differentially expressed genes to identify putative gene regulatory networks.

      (9) Line 581: why did the authors choose to highlight and validate PORCN1 in PGCs? Please elaborate.

      As stated in the manuscript, we chose to highlight and validate PORCN1 in PGCs because of its role in WNT signaling and because of the visibly strong correlation between chromatin accessibility at the XXenriched DAP in Fig. 4c (dashed box) and and gene expression of PORCN1.

      (10) Figure 5f would be easier to interpret if presented as two columns rather than a circle; show one line of the proteins and the other line with the transcripts so that each is on the same line and there are connections between them.

      This comment is related to stylistic preferences. The purpose of Fig. 5f is to demonstrate that the candidate transcription factors may regulate the expression of other enriched transcription factors. Figure 5f figure accomplishes this goal.

      (11) Line 640: "The predicted target genes of TCFL5 totaled 74% (367/494) of all DEGs with peak-to-gene linkages in XX PGCs". This seems like a high number and a lot of work for just TCFL5; given the overlap between other TFs and target genes, how many of these 367 target genes overlap with other TFs?

      We agree with the reviewer that this is an important declaration to make. We added the following sentence to the results section on TCFL5: “A large majority of the predicted target genes of TCFL5 were also predicted to be the target genes of the enriched TFs presented in Fig. 5e, e.g., the predicted target genes of these TFs overlapped with 4%-100% of the predicted target genes of TCFL5.”

      (12) The presentation of TCFL5 in the results section would make more sense with the additional mention of reproductive phenotypes already known (currently in the discussion Lines 914-917). I would furthermore suggest that the discussion goes into more depth on the difference between the regulatory network of TCFL5 in XX meiosis vs XY.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment, however, we already state in the results section that TCFL5 is known to influence XX PGC sex determination.

      (13) In the Methods, please state more clearly for those not familiar that the genetic background of mice is mixed.

      We described the mice with their official names, which provides the context of their genetic backgrounds.

      (14) Please specify which morphologic criteria were used to verify the stage of embryos in the methods.

      We added the following text to the methods section of the revised manuscript: “Plug date was used to determine the stage of embryos collected for single-nucleus RNA-seq and ATAC-seq. The stage of E11.5 embryos was confirmed by counting somites. The stage of embryos collected at E12.5 was confirmed by the morphological presence of the vessel and cords of the testes collected from XY embryos. Similarly, we confirmed the stage of embryos collected at E13.5 by the size of the gonads, the presence of more distinct cords in the testes of XY embryos, and the elongation of the ovaries of XX embryos.”

      (15) The total number of cells and PGCs that passed QC and are included in UMAPS should be stated.

      The requested information was added to the legend for Fig. 1 of the revised manuscript: “The number of PGCs per sex and embryonic stage are: 375 E11.5 XX PGCs; 1,106 E12.5 XX PGCs; 750 E13.5 XX PGCs; 110 E11.5 XY PGCs; 465 E12.5 XY PGCs; and 348 E13.5 XY PGCs.”

      (16) The order of timepoints changes between figures, and this is not for any obvious reason. Please make it consistent. Figures 1 and 6 list XX 11.5, 12.5, 13.5, and the same for XY, but Figures 2, 3, and 4 use the reverse order: XY E13.5, E12.5, E11.5, and then XX. 

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. However, we chose this order for each of the figures to match the coordinates of the graphs and where we would expect the reader to begin reading the graph first. For example, in Figure 3a, XX E11.5 is closest to the x-axis and would be expected to be read first.   

      (17) In Figure S2 the colors of clusters are hard to distinguish, and it is suggested that the cluster numbers should be listed above each colored bar to avoid frustration.

      We made the suggested correction to Figure S2.

      (18) In Figures 2e and 3e: what do the dashed boxes indicate?

      The dashed boxes are to guide the reader’s eyes to the fact that the order of transcription factors/genes under the Cistrome DB regulatory potential score and gene expression plots are the same.

      (19) In Figure 5a: break panels into i-iv so that the in-text call-outs are not all the same.

      We made the suggested correction to Figure 5a and modified the in-text call-outs.

      (20) Please indicate XX in Figure 5e and XY in Figure 5l.

      We made the suggested correction to Figure 5e and 5l.

      (21) In Figure S5c: Please reorganize DA chromatin peak charts so that columns are XX and XY with rows at the same timepoint.

      We made the suggested correction to Figure S5c.

      (22) In Figure S7a: please make images larger so that the overlapping expression of PORCN and TRA98 is more visible, and consider adding a more magnified panel.

      This image is now included in the main text, with expanded panels.

      (23) Line 742-754: this seems like a long introduction for the results section; please consider tightening it up.

      We believe this text is important and necessary to provide context to the bioinformatics analyses of cell signaling pathways in PGCs. Not all readers will be familiar with the ligand-receptor signals between gonadal support cells and PGCs, and this text provides details on which signaling pathways are known to direct sex determination of PGCs.

      (24) For UMAP plots in Figures 2c, 3c, S3b, and S4b, the text overlaid with the timepoints and sexes onto the UMAP plots is misleading, as it allows the reader to presume that the entire group of cells for a given sex/timepoint is located in the location of the text overlay. However, from the UMAP plots in Figure 1i-j, it is clear that the cells from a given sex/timepoint are actually spread across multiple identified clusters. Thus, the overlaid text obscures the important heterogeneity detected. To better represent the actual locations on the UMAP plot of cells from each sex/timepoint, it would be better to show inset density plots alongside these UMAP plots so the reader can locate the cells for themselves. 

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. However, we chose this formatting to offer simplicity and ease of understanding to our UMAPs in addition to highlighting the general biological patterns of gene expression. If the reader is interested in discerning more of the heterogeneity of the UMAPs, they may refer back to Figure 1.

      Reviewer #3 (recommendations for the authors):

      There are some errors or places that need clarification or corrections:

      (1) Figure 1f, according to the graph, it should be 8 clusters, not 9.

      There are 9 clusters because the numbering for the clusters start at ‘0’.

      (2) Why did cluster 8 have so many different states of cells from both sexes?

      The identification of cluster 8 is likely an artifact of sequencing, and would require several different analyses to figure out why cluster 8 has many different states of cells from both sexes. While this will address a technical issue associated with the dataset, this will not change any major conclusions of the study.

      (3) Figure 1i, shouldn't that be ten instead of eleven?

      There are 11 clusters because the numbering for the clusters start at ‘0’.

      (4) Figure 2a, zkscan expression level comparison was not so obvious as the bubble size was small. How many folds of differences from xx pgc?

      There is a 1.5 fold increase in the expression of Zkscan5 between XY and XX PGCs at E13.5. We included this information in the revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors constructed a novel HSV-based therapeutic vaccine to cure SIV in a primate model. The novel HSV vector is deleted for ICP34.5. Evidence is given that this protein blocks HIV reactivation by interference with the NFkappaB pathway. The deleted construct supposedly would reactivate SIV from latency. The SIV genes carried by the vector ought to elicit a strong immune response. Together the HSV vector would elicit a shock and kill effect. This is tested in a primate model.

      Strengths and weaknesses:

      (1) Deleting ICP34.5 from the HSV construct has a very strong effect on HIV reactivation. The mechanism underlying increased activation by deleting ICP34.5 is only partially explored. Overexpression of ICP34.5 has a much smaller effect (reduction in reactivation) than deletion of ICP34.5 (strong activation); this is acknowledged by the authors that no full mechanistic explanation can be given at this moment.

      Thank you for your comments. We agree with you that the mechanism underlying increased reactivation by deleting ICP34.5 is only partially explored. As you pointed out, the deletion of ICP34.5 leads to a significant reactivation, while the overexpression of ICP34.5 has a relatively weak inhibitory effect on reactivation. This difference prompts us to further contemplate the role of HSV-1 in regulating HIV latency and reactivation. Our data (Figure S4), along with previous literature (Mosca et al., 1987, Nabel et al., 1988), have indicated that the ICP0 protein might play a crucial role in the reactivation of HIV latency. However, we found for the first time that ICP34.5 can play an antagonistic role with this reactivation. This is a very interesting topic for understanding the complicated interactions between host cells and different viruses. We will investigate the deeper insights in future studies, and we have mentioned this limitation in the revised Discussion Section. Thank you!

      (2) No toxicity data are given for deleting ICP34.5. How specific is the effect for HIV reactivation? A RNA seq analysis is required to show the effect on cellular genes.

      A RNA seq analysis was done in the revised manuscript comparing the effect of HSV-1 and deleted vector in J-LAT cells (Fig S5). More than 2000 genes are upregulated after transduction with the modified vector in comparison with the WT vector. Hence, the specificity of upregulation of SIV genes is questioned. Authors do NOT comment on these findings. In my view it questions the utility of this approach.

      Thank you for your mentions.

      (1) As for the toxicity of HSV-ΔICP34.5, it is well known that ICP34.5 is a neurotoxicity factor that can antagonize host immune responses, and thus deleting ICP34.5 is beneficial to improve the safety of HSV-based constructs. As expected, we have demonstrated experimentally that HSV-DICP34.5 exhibited lower virulence and replication ability than wild-type HSV-1 (Figure S1). Importantly, we also observed a significant decrease in the expression of inflammatory factors in PWLH when compared to wild-type HSV-1 (Figure 1I-K). These data suggested that the safety of HSV-DICP34.5 should be more tolerable than wild-type HSV vector.

      (2) The RNASeq analysis is aimed to explore the HSV-ΔICP34.5-induced signaling pathways, but it is not suitable to use this data for assessing the toxicity of HSV-ΔICP34.5 constructs. As for the RNASeq data, we think it is reasonable to observe many upregulated genes (which are involved in a variety of signaling pathways), since HSV-DICP34.5 constructs reactivated HIV latency more effectively than wild-type HSV by modulating the IKKα/β-NF-kB pathway and PP1-HSF1 pathway.

      (3) To further validate whether HSV-ΔICP34.5 can specifically activate the HIV latent reservoir, we conducted additional experiments using vaccinia virus and adenovirus as controls, and results showed that both vaccinia virus and adenovirus cannot effectively reactivate HIV latency (Figure S3). Moreover, the deletion of ICP0 gene from HSV-1 diminished the reactivation effect of HIV latency by HSV-1, and overexpressing ICP0 greatly reactivate the latent HIV (Figure S4, Figure S5), implying that this reactivation should be virus-specific and ICP0 plays an important factor on reversing HIV latency. Interestingly, we herein found that ICP34.5 can act as an antagonistic factor for this reactivation of HIV latency by HSV-1. Thus, after the deletion of ICP34.5, the ability of HSV to reverse HIV latency was significantly enhanced. Our research group will investigate the underlying mechanism in future studies. Thank you for your insightful mention.

      (3) The primate groups are too small and the results to variable to make averages. In Fig 5, the group with ART and saline has two slow rebounders. It is not correct to average those with the single quick rebounder. Here the interpretation is NOT supported by the data.

      Although authors provided some promising SIV DNA data, no additional animals were added. Groups of 3 animals are too small to make any conclusion, especially since the huge variability in response. The average numbers out of 3 are still presented in the paper, which is not proper science.

      No data are given of the effect of the deletion in primates. Now the deleted construct is compared with an empty vector containing no SIV genes. Authors provide new data in Fig S2 on the comparison of WT and modified vector in cells from PLWH, but data are not that convincing. A significant difference in reactivation is seen for LTR in only 2/4 donors and in Gag in 3/4 donors. (Additional question what is meaning of LTR mRNA, do authors relate to genomic RNA??)

      Thank you for your serious review and kind reminder.

      (1) We agree with you that it is not appropriated to use averages for this pilot study with limited numbers of macaques. We are currently unable to conduct another experiment with a larger number of macaques, but we think the results of this pilot study were very promising for further studies. Now, following your kind suggestions, we have removed the averages and now presented the data for each monkey individually in the revised manuscript. We have also modified the corresponding description accordingly (Line 254 to 262). Thank you for your understanding.

      (2) Regarding your comment about the lack of data on the deletion of ICP34.5 from HSV-1, we are sorry for previously unclear description. In fact, the empty vector used in our animal experiments not only does not contain SIV antigens but also has the ICP34.5 deletion. We have revised the corresponding description accordingly (For example, we use HSV-DICP34.5DICP47-empty, HSV-DICP34.5DICP47-sPD1-SIVgag/SIVenv instead of HSV-empty, HSV-sPD1-SIVgag/SIVenv). We hope this revision will address your question.

      (3) As for the reactivation effects observed in PLWH samples, the data may be not perfect, but we think this result (a significant difference in reactivation is seen for LTR in 2/4 donors and for Gag in 3/4 donors, and the purpose of detecting LTR RNA is to evaluate the level of virus replication) is promising to support our conclusion (The enhanced reactivation effect in primary CD4+ T cells by HSV-∆ICP34.5 than wild-type HSV). Of course, we recognize the need for more samples to gain a comprehensive understanding of reactivation effect in different individuals in future study. In addition, we corrected the description of LTR RNA (Lines 99-106 and 115-116). Thank you for the reminder!

      Discussion

      HSV vectors are mainly used in cancer treatment partially due to induced inflammation. Whether these are suitable to cure PLWH without major symptoms is a bit questionable to me and should at least be argued for.

      The RNA seq data add on to this worry and should at least be discussed.

      Thank you for your mention. As mentioned above, the RNASeq analysis is aimed to explore the HSV-ΔICP34.5-induced signaling pathways, but it is not suitable to use this data for assessing the toxicity of HSV-ΔICP34.5 constructs. Actually, ICP34.5 is a neurotoxicity factor that can antagonize innate immune responses, and thus ICP34.5 deletion is beneficial to improve the safety of HSV-based constructs. As expected, our data have demonstrated experimentally that HSV-DICP34.5 exhibited lower virulence and replication ability than wild-type HSV-1 (Figure S1). Importantly, HSV-DICP34.5 induced a lower level of inflammatory cytokines (including IL-6, IL-1β, and TNF-α) in primary CD4+ T cells from PLWH compared to HSV stimulation, likely due to its lower virulence and replication ability (Figure 1I-K). In addition, the CD4+ /CD8+ T cell ratio (Figure 5H) and body weight (Figure S10) after treatment were effectively ameliorated in the SIV-infected macaques of the ART+HSV-DICP34.5DICP47-sPD1-SIVgag/SIVenv group. Our data also demonstrated that there was no significant effect on the cell composition of peripheral blood in the SIV-infected macaques of ART+HSV-DICP34.5DICP47-sPD1-SIVgag/SIVenv group (Figure S11). These data suggested that the safety of HSV-DICP34.5 should be more tolerable than wild-type HSV vector. We have added a more comprehensive description in the revised Discussion (Lines 328-334). Thank you again for all of your kind comments and suggestions.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this article Wen et. al., describe the development of a 'proof-of-concept' bi-functional vector based out of HSV-deltaICP-34.5's ability to purge latent HIV-1 and SIV genomes from cells. They show that co-infection of latent J-lat T-cell lines with a HSV-deltaICP-34.5 vector can reactivate HIV-1 from a latent state. Over- or stable expression of ICP 34.5 ORF in these cells can arrest latent HIV-1 genomes from transcription, even in the presence of latency reversal agents. ICP34.5 can co-IP with- and de-phosphorylate IKKa/b to block its interaction with NF-k/B transcription factor. Additionally, ICP34.5 can interact with HSF1 which was identified by mass-spec. Thus, the authors propose that the latency reversal effect of HSV-deltaICP-34.5 in co-infected JLat cells is due to modulatory effects on the IKKa/b-NF-kB and PP1-HSF-1 pathway.

      Next the authors cleverly construct a bifunctional HSV based vector with deleted ICP34.5 and 47 ORFs to purge latency and avoid immunological refluxes, and additionally expand the application of this construct as a vaccine by introducing SIV genes. They use this 'vaccine' in mouse models and show the expected SIV-immune responses. Experiments in rhesus macaques (RM), further elicit potential for their approach to reactivate SIV genomes and at the same time block their replication by antibodies. What was interesting in the SIV experiments is that the dual-functional vector vaccine containing sPD1- and SIV Gag/Env ORFs effectively delayed SIV rebound in RMs and in some cases almost neutralized viral DNA copy detection in serum. Very promising indeed, however there are some questions I wish the authors explored to answer, detailed below.

      Overall, this is an elegant and timely work demonstrating the feasibility of reducing virus rebound in animals, and potentially expand to clinical studies. The work was well written, and sections were clearly discussed.

      Strengths:

      The work is well designed, rationale explained and written very clearly for lay readers.

      Claims are adequately supported by evidence and well designed experiments including controls.

      We appreciate your positive comment for our work.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) It looks like ICP0 is also involved in latency reversal effects. More follow-up work will be required to test if this is in fact true.

      Both our data (Figure S4, Figure S5) and previous literature (Nabel et al., 1988, Mosca et al., 1987) have reported that HSV ICP0 may play a role in reversing HIV latency. However, the exact mechanisms behind this effect have not yet been fully elucidated. Of note, we herein reported for the first time that ICP34.5 can act as an antagonistic factor for this reactivation of HIV latency by HSV-1. Thus, after the deletion of ICP34.5, the ability of HSV to reverse HIV latency was significantly enhanced. Our research group will investigate the underlying mechanism in future studies. Thank you for your insightful mention.

      (2) It is difficult to estimate the depletion of the latent viral reservoir. The authors have tried to address this issue. A more convincing argument to this reviewer will be data to demonstrate that after the bi-functional vaccine, the animals show overall reduction in the number of circulating latent cells. The feasibility to obtain such a result is not clearly demonstrated.

      Thank you for your comment. As you mentioned, we have indeed measured both total DNA and integrated DNA (iDNA) in blood cells (see Figure 5E-F), which can provide support for the reduction of the latent viral reservoir. Thank you for your kind reminder.

      (3) The authors state that the reduced virus rebound detected following bi-functional vaccine delivery is due to latent genomes becoming activated and steady-state neutralization of these viruses by antibody response. This needs to be demonstrated. Perhaps cell-culture experiments from specimen taken from animals might help address this issue. In lab cultures one could create environments without antibody responses, under these conditions one would expect higher level of viral loads being released in response to the vaccine in question.

      Thank you for your valuable suggestion. We believe that the reduced virus rebound observed may be influenced by immune responses from T cells and antibodies induced by both ART and the vaccine. We appreciate your insight and agree that future studies should focus on investigating the activation effects of the vaccine under controlled conditions that simulate the absence of immune responses in primary animal cells. This will help us better understand the mechanisms involved and address your concerns more comprehensively.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The Authors have sufficiently addressed my comments. Below are a few minor changes that can help with clarity.

      Lines 126-127: This sentence should be changed. Perhaps, "these data suggests that .... Safety of... in PLWH might be tolerable, at least in vitro."

      Thanks for your suggestion. We have revised it accordingly. (Line 130).

      Lines 128-132: Would this not mean that reactivation is due to ICP0 gene? Have the authors tried to express ICP0-gene into J-Lat cells and see if that is the reason for reactivation? This seems somewhat incomplete. At the end of 132, please add ", in the presence of ICP0". Also a sentence describing this effect is warranted.

      Thank you for your insightful suggestion. Yes, both our data and previous literature supported that the ICP0 gene can play a significant role in the reactivation of HIV latency (Figure S4, Figure S5). Of note, we herein reported for the first time that ICP34.5 can act as an antagonistic factor for this reactivation of HIV latency by HSV-1. Thus, after the deletion of ICP34.5, the ability of HSV to reverse HIV latency was significantly enhanced. We have described this effect in the revised version accordingly. Additionally, we have added the phrase “in the presence of ICP0” to the results section (Lines 137) to clarify this point.

      MOSCA, J. D., BEDNARIK, D. P., RAJ, N. B., ROSEN, C. A., SODROSKI, J. G., HASELTINE, W. A., HAYWARD, G. S. & PITHA, P. M. 1987. Activation of human immunodeficiency virus by herpesvirus infection: identification of a region within the long terminal repeat that responds to a trans-acting factor encoded by herpes simplex virus 1. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 84:  7408.DOI: https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.84.21.7408, PMID: 2823260

      NABEL, G. J., RICE, S. A., KNIPE, D. M. & BALTIMORE, D. 1988. Alternative mechanisms for activation of human immunodeficiency virus enhancer in T cells. Science 239:  1299.DOI: https://doi.org/10.1126/science.2830675, PMID: 2830675

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      By using the biophysical chromosome stretching, the authors measured the stiffness of chromosomes of mouse oocytes in meiosis I (MI) and meiosis II (MII). This study was the follow-up of previous studies in spermatocytes (and oocytes) by the authors (Biggs et al. Commun. Biol. 2020: Hornick et al. J. Assist. Rep. and Genet. 2015). They showed that MI chromosomes are much stiffer (~10 fold) than mitotic chromosomes of mouse embryonic fibroblast (MEF) cells. MII chromosomes are also stiffer than the mitotic chromosomes. The authors also found that oocyte aging increases the stiffness of the chromosomes. Surprisingly, the stiffness of meiotic chromosomes is independent of meiotic chromosome components, Rec8, Stag3, and Rad21L. with aging.

      Strengths:

      This provides a new insight into the biophysical property of meiotic chromosomes, that is chromosome stiffness. The stiffness of chromosomes in meiosis prophase I is ~10-fold higher than that of mitotic chromosomes, which is independent of meiotic cohesin. The increased stiffness during oocyte aging is a novel finding.

      Weaknesses:

      A major weakness of this paper is that it does not provide any molecular mechanism underlying the difference between MI and MII chromosomes (and/or prophase I and mitotic chromosomes).

      We acknowledge that our study does not provide a comprehensive explanation for the stage-related alterations in chromosome stiffness; however, we believe that the observation of these changes is itself of broad interest. Initially, we hypothesized that DNA damage or depletion of meiosis-specific cohesin might contribute to the observed increase in chromosome stiffness. However, our experimental finding did not support these hypotheses, indicating that neither DNA damage nor cohesion depletion is responsible for the stiffness increase. The molecular basis underlying the stage-related stiffness increase remains elusive and requires exploration in future studies. In the Discussion, we propose that factors such as condensin, nuclear proteins, and histone methylation may play a role in regulating meiotic chromosome stiffness. The involvement of these factors in stage-related chromosome stiffening requires future investigation.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      This paper reports investigations of chromosome stiffness in oocytes and spermatocytes. The paper shows that prophase I spermatocytes and MI/MII oocytes yield high Young Modulus values in the assay the authors applied. Deficiency in each one of three meiosis-specific cohesins they claim did not affect this result and increased stiffness was seen in aged oocytes but not in oocytes treated with the DNA-damaging agent etoposide.

      The paper reports some interesting observations which are in line with a report by the same authors of 2020 where increased stiffness of spermatocyte chromosomes was already shown. In that sense, the current manuscript is an extension of that previous paper, and thus novelty is somewhat limited. The paper is also largely descriptive as it does neither propose a mechanism nor report factors that determine the chromosomal stiffness.

      There are several points that need to be considered.

      (1) Limitations of the study and the conclusions are not discussed in the "Discussion" section and that is a significant gap. Even more so as the authors rely on just one experimental system for all their data - there is no independent verification - and that in vitro system may be prone to artefacts.

      Our experimental system has been used to study different types of chromosome stiffness as well as nuclear stiffness.  We have compared our results with previously published data and found the data is consistent across different experiments. To address the reviewer’s concern, we describe the limitations of our in vitro experimental approach in the Discussion section.

      (2) It is somewhat unfortunate that they jump between oocytes and spermatocytes to address the cohesin question. Prophase I (pachytene) spermatocytes chromosomes are not directly comparable to MI or MII oocyte chromosomes. In fact, the authors report Young Modulus values of 3700 for MI oocytes and only 2700 for spermatocyte prophase chromosomes, illustrating this difference. Why not use oocyte-specific cohesin deficiencies?

      In this study, our goal was to investigate the mechanism underlying the increased chromosome stiffness observed during prophase I. Ideally, we would have compared wild-type and cohesin-deleted mouse oocytes at the metaphase I (MI) stage. However, experimental constraints made this approach unfeasible: spermatocytes and oocytes from  Rec8<sup>-/-</sup> and  Stag3<sup>-/-</sup> mutant mice cannot reach MI stage, and  Rad21l<sup>-/-</sup> mutant mice are sterile in males and subfertile in females, because cohesin proteins are crucial for germline cell development.

      Additionally, collecting prophase I chromosomes from oocytes is exceptionally challenging and requires fetal mice as prophase I oocyte sources because female oocytes progress to the diplotene stage during fetal development. The process is further complicated by the difficulty of genotyping fetal mice, making the study of female prophase I impracticable. By contrast, spermatocytes are continuously generated in males throughout life, with meiotic stages readily identifiable, making them more accessible for analysis.

      Our findings consistently showed increased chromosome stiffness in both prophase I spermatocytes and MI oocytes, suggesting that the phenomenon is not sex-specific. This observation implies that similar effects on chromosome stiffness may occur across meiotic stages, from prophase I to MI.

      (3) It remains unclear whether the treatment of oocytes with the detergent TritonX-100 affects the spindle and thus the chromosomes isolated directly from the Triton-lysed oocytes. In fact, it is rather likely that the detergent affects chromatin-associated proteins and thus structural features of the chromosomes.

      Regarding the use of Triton X-100, it is important to emphasize that the concentration used (0.05%) is very low and unlikely to significantly affect chromosome stiffness. To support this assertion, we have provided additional evidence in the revised manuscript demonstrating that this low concentration of Triton X-100 has a negligible effect on chromosome stiffness (Supplement Fig. 5, Right panel).

      (4) Why did the authors use mouse strains of different genetic backgrounds, CD-1, and C57BL/6? That makes comparison difficult. Breeding of heterozygous cohesin mutants will yield the ideal controls, i.e. littermates.

      The genetic mutant mice, all in a C57BL/6 background, were generously provided by Dr. Philip Jordan and delivered to our lab. As our lab does not currently maintain C57BL/6 colony and given that this strain typically produces small litter sizes - which would have complicated the remainder of the study - we chose CD-1 mice as the control group and used C57BL/6 mice specifically for the cohesin study. To address potential concerns regarding genetic background differences, we compared our results with previously published data from C57BL/6 mice and found no significant differences (2710 ± 610 Pa versus 3670 ± 840 Pa, P= 0.4809) (Biggs et al., 2020). Furthermore, prophase I spermatocytes from CD-1 mice showed no significant difference compared to any of the three cohesin-deleted C57BL/6 mutant mice, suggesting that chromosome stiffness is not significantly influenced by genetic background.

      (5) How did the authors capture chromosome axes from STAG3-deficienct spermatocytes which feature very few if any axes? How representative are those chromosomes that could be captured?

      We isolated chromosomes from prophase I mutant spermatocytes, which were identified by their large size, round shape, and thick chromosomal threads - characteristics indicative of advanced condensation and a zygotene-like stage during prophase I (Supplemental Fig. 3). The methodology for isolating these chromosomes has been described in details in our previous publication (Biggs et al., 2020), which is referenced in the current manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Understanding the mechanical properties of chromosomes remains an important issue in cell biology. Measuring chromosome stiffness can provide valuable insights into chromosome organization and function. Using a sophisticated micromanipulation system, Liu et al. analyzed chromosome stiffness in MI and MII oocytes. The authors found that chromosomes in MI oocytes were ten-fold stiffer than mitotic ones. The stiffness of chromosomes in MI mouse oocytes was significantly higher than that in MII oocytes. Furthermore, the knockout of the meiosis-specific cohesin component (Rec8, Stag3, Rad21l) did not affect meiotic chromosome stiffness. Interestingly, the authors showed that chromosomes from old MI oocytes had higher stiffness than those from young MI oocytes. The authors claimed this effect was not due to the accumulated DNA damage during the aging process because induced DNA damage reduced chromosome stiffness in oocytes.

      Strengths:

      The technique used (isolating the chromosomes in meiosis and measuring their stiffness) is the authors' specialty. The results are intriguing and informative to the chromatin/chromosome and other related fields.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) How intact the measured chromosomes were is unclear.

      Currently, a well-calibrated chromosome mechanics experiment requires the extracellular isolation of chromosomes. In experiments conducted parallel to those in our previous study (Biggs et al., 2020), we obtained quantitatively consistent results, including measurements of the Young modulus for prophase I spermatocyte chromosomes.  Our isolation approach is significantly gentler than bulk methods that rely on hypotonic buffer-driven cell lysis and centrifugation. If substantial chromosomal damage had occurred during isolation, we would expect greater variation between experiments, as different amounts or types of damage could influence the results. 

      (2) Some control data needs to be included.

      We used wild-type prophase I spermatocytes and metaphase I (MI) oocytes as controls. To validate our findings, we compared some of our results with those reported in a previous study and observed consistent outcomes (Biggs et al., 2020).

      (3) The paper was not well-written, particularly the Introduction section.

      We have revised the paper and improved the overall quality of the manuscript.

      (4) How intact were the measured chromosomes? Although the structural preservation of the chromosomes is essential for this kind of measurement, the meiotic chromosomes were isolated in PBS with Triton X-100 and measured at room temperature. It is known that chromosomes are very sensitive to cation concentrations and macromolecular crowding in the environment (PMID: 29358072, 22540018, 37986866). It would be better to discuss this point.

      As suggested, we investigated the impact of PBS and Triton X-100 on chromosome stiffness. Our findings indicate that neither PBS nor Triton X-100 caused significant changes in chromosome stiffness (Supplemental Fig. 5).

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Major points of Reviewers that the Editor indicated should be addressed

      (1) Reviewer's point 3, the effect of the high concentration of etoposide: It would be advisable to use lower concentrations of etoposide to observe the effect of DNA damage on chromosome stiffness more accurately.

      The effect of etoposide on oocyte is dose-dependent (Collins et al., 2015). Oocytes are generally not highly sensitive to DNA damage, and even at relatively high concentrations, not all may exhibit a response. To ensure that sufficient DNA damage in the oocytes we isolated, we used relatively high concentration of etoposide for the experiment. This concentration (50 μg/ml) falls within the typical range reported in the literature (Marangos and Carroll, 2012)(Cai et al., 2023)(Lee et al., 2023). As the reviewer suggested, we tested two additional lower concentrations of etoposide (5 μg/ml and 25 μg/ml) (see Fig. 5 C). We did not observe any significant differences in chromosome stiffness in 5 µg/ml etoposide-treated oocytes compared to the control. However, higher concentrations of etoposide (25 μg/ml) significantly reduced oocyte chromosome stiffness compared to the control.

      Revision to manuscript:

      “Results at lower etoposide concentrations revealed that chromosome stiffness in untreated control oocytes was not significantly different from that in oocytes treated with 5 μg/ml etoposide (3780 ± 700 Pa versus 3930 ± 400 Pa, P = 0.8624). However, chromosome stiffness in untreated oocytes was significantly higher than that in oocytes treated with 25 μg/ml etoposide (3780 ± 700 Pa versus 1640 ± 340 Pa, P = 0.015) (Figure 5C).”

      (2) Reviewer's point 3, the effect of Triton X-100: This is related to the concern of the #3 reviewer. It is critical to check whether the detergent does not affect the stiffness indirectly or not.

      To demonstrate that the low concentration of Triton X-100 does not influence chromosome stiffness, we conducted additional experiments. First, we isolated chromosomes and measured their stiffness. Then, we treated the chromosomes with 0.05% Triton X-100 via micro-spraying and remeasured the stiffness. The results showed no significant difference (see Supplement Fig. 5 right panel).

      Revision to manuscript:

      “In addition to past experiments indicating that mitotic chromosomes are stable for long periods after their isolation (Pope et al., 2006), we carried out control experiments on mouse oocyte chromosomes where we incubated them for 1 hour in PBS, or exposed them to a flow of Triton X-100 solution for 10 minutes; there was no change in chromosome stiffness in either case (Methods and Supplementary Fig. 5).”

      (3) Reviewer's point 1, the effect of the buffer composition: Please describe how the composition affects the stiffness of the chromosomes.

      PBS is an economical and effective buffer solution that closely mimics the osmotic conditions of the cytoplasm, which is crucial for maintaining chromosomal structural integrity. Appropriate ion concentrations are crucial for preserving chromosome integrity, as imbalances—either too high or too low—can alter chromosome morphology (Poirier and Marko, 2002). When chromosomes are stored in PBS, their stiffness remains relatively stable, even with prolonged exposure, ensuring minimal changes to their physical properties. To confirm this, we isolated chromosomes and measured their stiffness. After one-hour incubation in PBS, we remeasured stiffness and observed no significant differences, which demonstrated that chromosomes remain stable in PBS (see Supplement Fig.5 left panel).

      Revision to manuscript:

      “In this study, we developed a new way to isolate meiotic chromosomes and measure their stiffness. However, one concern is that the measurements were conducted in PBS solution, which is different from the intracellular environment. To address this, we monitored chromosome stiffness overtime in PBS solution and found that it remained stable over a period of one hour (Supplement Fig. 5 Left panel).”

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major points:

      (1) Previously, the role of condensin complexes in chromosome stiffness is shown (Sun et al. Chromosome Research, 2018). Thus, at least the authors described the condensin staining on MI and MII chromosomes.

      We have added sentences in the discussion to elaborate on the role of condensin.

      Revision to manuscript:

      “Several factors, including condensin, have been found to affect chromosome stiffness (Sun et al., 2018). Condensin exists in two distinct complexes, condensin I and condensin II, and both are active during meiosis. Published studies indicate that condensin II is more sharply defined and more closely associated with the chromosome axis from anaphase I to metaphase II (Lee et al., 2011). Additionally, condensin II appears to play a more significant role in mitotic chromosome mechanics compared to condensin I (Sun et al., 2018). Thus, condensin II likely contributes more significantly to meiotic chromosome stiffness than condensin I.”

      (2) Although the authors nicely showed the difference in the stiffness between MI and MII chromosomes (Figure 2), as known, MI chromosomes are bivalent (with four chromatids) while MII chromosomes are univalent (with two chromatids). The physical property of the chromosomes would be affected by the number of chromatids. It would be essential for the authors to measure the physical properties of a univalent of MI chromosomes from mice defective in meiotic recombination such as Spo11 and/or Mlh3 KO mice.

      The reviewer correctly pointed out that the number of chromatids in chromosomes differs between metaphase I (MI) and metaphase II (MII) stages. We have addressed this difference by calculating Young’s modulus (E), a mechanical property that describes the elasticity of a material, independent of its geometry. Young’s modulus describes the intrinsic properties of the material itself, rather than the specific characteristics of the object being tested. It is calculated as E=(F/A)/(∆L/L0), where F was the force given to stretch the chromosome, A was the cross-section area, ∆L was the length change of the chromosome, and L0 was the original length of the chromosome. While an increase in chromosome or chromatid numbers, results in a larger cross-sectional area, leading to a higher doubling force (F). This variation in chromosome number or cross-sectional area does not impact the calculation of chromosome stiffness/Young’s modulus (E). While study of the mutants suggested by the referee would certainly be interesting, it would be likely that the absence of these key recombination factors would impact chromosome stiffness in a more complex way than just changing their thickness; this type of study is beyond the scope of the present manuscript and is an exciting direction for future studies.

      (3) In Figure 5, the authors measure the stiffness of etoposide-treated MI chromosomes. The concentration of the drug was 50 ug/ml, which is very high. The authors should analyze the different concentrations of the drug to check the chromosome stiffness. Moreover, etoposide is an inhibitor of Topoisomerase II. The effect of the drug might be caused by the defective Top2 activity, rather than Top2-adducts, thus DNA damage. It is very important to check the other Top2 inhibitors or DNA-damaging agents to generalize the effect of DNA damage on chromosome stiffness. Moreover, DNA damage induces the DNA damage response. It is important to check the effect of DDR inhibitors on the damage-induced change of stiffness.

      The reviewer is correct in noting that etoposide can induce DNA damage and inhibit Top2 activity. To address this concern, our previous DNase experiment provided further clarity and supports our results of this study (Biggs et al., 2020). This experiment was conducted in vitro, where DNase treatment caused DNA damage on chromosomes without affecting Top2 activity or triggering DNA damage response. The results demonstrated that DNase treatment led to reduced chromosome stiffness, which aligns with the findings presented in our manuscript.

      (4) In the same line as the #3 point, the authors also need to check the effect of etoposide on the stiffness of mitotic chromosomes from MEF.

      Experiments on MEF mitotic chromosomes were designed to serve as a reference for the meiotic chromosome studies. The etoposide experiments on meiotic chromosomes specifically aimed to investigate how DNA damage affects meiotic chromosome structure. While it would be interesting to explore the effects of etoposide-induced DNA damage on mitotic chromosomes, it represents a distinct research question that falls outside the scope of the current study.

      Minor points:

      (1) Line 141-142: Previous studies by the author analyzed the stiffness of mitotic chromosomes from pro-metaphase. Which stage of cell cycles did the authors analyze here?

      To ensure consistency in our experiments, we also measured the stiffness of mitotic chromosomes at the prometaphase stage. The precise stage used is very near to metaphase, at the very end of the prometaphase stage. We have modified the manuscript to clarify this point.

      Revision to manuscript:

      “For comparison with the meiotic case, we measured the chromosome stiffness of Mouse Embryonic Fibroblasts (MEFs) at late pro-metaphase (just slightly before their attachment to the mitotic spindle) and found that the average Young’s modulus was 340 ± 80 Pa (Figure 2B). The value is consistent with our previously published data, where the modulus for MEFs was measured to be 370 ± 70 Pa (Biggs et al., 2020).”

      (2) Line 157: Here, the doubling force of MI (and MII) oocytes should be described in addition to those of spermatocytes.

      The purpose of this paragraph is to demonstrate the reproductivity and consistency of our experiments. In this section, we compared our data with previously published findings. Published data do not include chromosome stiffness measurement from MI mouse oocytes. Our experiment is the first to assess this. Therefore, we did not include MI mouse oocytes in that comparison. To clarify this, we have added sentences to highlight the comparison of doubling force.

      Revision to manuscript:

      “Here, we found that the doubling forces of chromosomes from MI and MII oocytes are 3770 ± 940 pN and 510 ± 50 pN, respectively. We conclude that chromosomes from MI oocytes are much stiffer than those from both mitotic cells and MII oocytes (Supplement Fig. 2), in terms of either Young’s modulus or doubling force.”

      (3) Line 202: What stage of prophase I do the authors mean by the spermatocyte stage here? Diakinesis, Metaphase I or prometaphase I? I am not sure how the authors can determine a specific stage of prophase I by only looking at the thickness of the chromosomes. Please show the thickness distribution of WT and Rec8<sup>-/-</sup> chromosomes.

      We have reworded the sentence and clarified that the spermatocyte stage is prophase I stage. Since Rec8<sup>-/-</sup> spermatocytes cannot progress beyond the pachytene stage of prophase I, the isolated chromosomes must be in prophase I rather than diakinesis, metaphase I, prometaphase I, or any later stages (Xu et al., 2005). Based on the cell size and degree of chromosome condensation (Biggs et al., 2020), it is most likely that the measured chromosomes are at the zygotene-like stage. However, as we cannot definitively determine the exact substage of prophase I, thus, we have referred to them simply as prophase I.

      Revision to manuscript:

      “We isolated chromosomes from Rec8<sup>-/-</sup> prophase I spermatocytes, which displayed large and round cell size and thick chromosomal threads, indicative of advanced chromosome compaction after stalling at a zygotene-like prophase I stage (Supplement Fig. 3). The combination of large cell size and degree of chromosome compaction allowed us to reliably identify Rec8<sup>-/-</sup> prophase I chromosomes. Using micromanipulation, we measured chromosome stiffness by stretching the chromosomes (Supplement Fig. 3) (Biggs et al., 2019).”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Line 135: that statement is not substantiated; better to show retraction data and full reversibility.

      We added a figure showing oocyte chromosome stretching, which showed that the oocyte chromosome is elastic, and that the stretching process is reversible (Supplement Fig.1).

      (2) Line 144: the authors claim that the Young Modulus of MII oocytes is "slightly" higher than that of mitotic cells (MEFs). Well, "slightly" means it is rather similar, and therefore the commonly used statement that MII is similar to mitosis is OK - contrary to the authors' claim.

      We have removed the word “slightly” in the manuscript. The difference is statistically significant.

      Revision to manuscript:

      “Surprisingly, despite this reduction, the stiffness of MII oocyte chromosomes was still significantly higher than that for mitotic cells (Figure 2B).”

      (3) There are a lot of awkward sentences in this text. Some sentences lack words, are not sufficiently precise in wording and/or logic, and there are numerous typos. Some examples can be found in lines 89 (grammar), 94, 95 ("looked"), 98, 101 ("difference" - between what?), and some are commonplaces or superficial (lines 92/93, 120..., ). Occasionally the present and past tense are mixed (e.g. in M&M). Thus the manuscript is quite poorly written.

      Thanks for the comments of the reviewer. We have revised all the sentences highlighted by the reviewer and polished the entire manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Line 48. "We then investigated the contribution of meiosis-specific cohesin complexes to chromosome stiffness in MI and MII oocytes." There is no data on oocytes with meiosis-specific cohesin KO. This part should be corrected.

      We have corrected this error.

      Revision to manuscript:

      “We examined the role of meiosis-specific cohesin complexes in regulating chromosome stiffness.”

      (2) Lines 155-157. The result of MI mouse oocyte chromosomes should also be mentioned here (Supplementary Figure 1).

      Please see our response to Reviewer 1 – Minor Point 2.

      (3) Line 163. "The stiffness of chromosomes in MI mouse oocytes is significantly higher compared to MII oocytes."<br /> Is this because two homologs are paired in MI chromosomes (but not in MII chromosomes)? The authors may want to discuss the possible mechanism.

      Please see our response to Reviewer 1 – Major Point 2.

      (4) Line 188: "We hypothesized that MI oocytes... would have higher chromosome stiffness than MII oocytes." Why did the authors measure chromosomes from spermatocytes but not MI oocytes?

      Both spermatocytes and oocytes from Rec8<sup>-/-</sup>, Stag3<sup>-/-</sup>, and Rad21l<sup>-/-</sup> mutant mice cannot reach MI stage because cohesin proteins are crucial for germline-cell development. We chose to use spermatocytes in our study because collecting fetal meiotic oocytes is extremely difficult, and genotyping fetal mice adds another layer of complexity to the experiments. In females, all oocytes complete prophase I and progress to the dictyotene stage during the fetal stage. Obtaining individual oocytes at this stage is challenging. In contrast, spermatocytes are continuously generated at all stages in males.

      (5) To support the authors' conclusion, verifying the KO of REC8, STAG3, and RAD21L by immunostaining or other methods is essential.

      These mice are provided by one of the authors, Dr. Philip Jordan, who has published several papers using these knockout mice (Hopkins et al., 2014)(Ward et al., 2016). The immunostaining of these models has already been well-characterized in those previous studies. In addition to performing double genotyping, we also use the size of the collected testes as an additional verification of the mutant genotype. These knockout mice have significantly smaller testes compared to their wild-type counterparts, providing a clear physical indicator of the mutation.

      (6) Some of the cited papers and descriptions in the Introduction are not appropriate and confusing. This part should be improved:

      Line 79. Recent studies have revealed that the 30-nm fiber is not considered the basic structure of chromatin (e.g., review, PMID: 30908980; original papers, PMID: 19064912, 22343941, 28751582). This point should be included.

      We have corrected the references as needed. Additionally, thank you for the updated information regarding the 30-nm fiber. We have removed all the descriptions about the 30-nm fiber to ensure the information is accurate and up to date.

      (7) Line 83. Reviews on mitotic chromosomes, rather than Ref. 9, should be cited here. For instance, PMID: 33836947, 31230958.

      We have corrected it and added references according to the review’s suggestion.

      (8) Line 85. Refs. 10 and 11 are not on the "Scaffold/Radial-Loop" model. For instance, PMID: 922894, 277351, 12689587. The other popular model is the hierarchical helical folding model (PMID: 98280, 15353545).

      We have corrected it and added appropriate references according to the review’s suggestion. Regarding the hierarchical helical folding model, our experiments do not provide data that either support or refute this model. Thus, we have opted not to include any discussion of this model in our manuscript.

      (9) Figure legends. There is no description of the statistical test.

      We have added the description of the statistical test at the end of the figure legends for clarity.

      (10) Line 156. The authors should mention which stages in spermatocyte prophase I (pachytene?) were used for their measurement.

      We cannot precisely determine the substage of prophase I in the spermatocytes although it is most likely in the pachytene stage.

      (11) Line 241. "DNA damage reduces chromosome stiffness in oocytes." It would be better to show how much damage was induced in aged and etoposide-treated chromosomes, for example, by gamma-H2AX immunostaining. In addition, there are some papers that show DNA damage makes chromatin/chromosomes softer (e.g., PMID: 33330932). The authors need to cite these papers.

      The effects of etoposide and age on meiotic oocytes has been published (Collins et al., 2015)(Marangos et al., 2015)(Winship et al., 2018).

      We are grateful for the citation information provided by the reviewer and have added it to our manuscript.

      Revision to manuscript:

      “Overall, these findings suggest that DNA damage reduces chromosome stiffness in oocytes instead of increasing it, which aligns with other studies showing that DNA damage can make chromosomes softer (Dos Santos et al., 2021). These results suggest that the increased chromosome stiffness observed in aged oocytes is not due to DNA damage.”

      (12) Line 328. Senescence?

      This error is corrected in the revised manuscript.

      Revision to manuscript:

      “Defective chromosome organization is often related to various diseases, such as cancer, infertility, and senescence (Thompson and Compton, 2011; Harton and Tempest, 2012; He et al., 2018).”

      References:

      Biggs, R., P.Z. Liu, A.D. Stephens, and J.F. Marko. 2019. Effects of altering histone posttranslational modifications on mitotic chromosome structure and mechanics. Mol. Biol. Cell. 30:820–827. doi:10.1091/mbc.E18-09-0592.

      Biggs, R.J., N. Liu, Y. Peng, J.F. Marko, and H. Qiao. 2020. Micromanipulation of prophase I chromosomes from mouse spermatocytes reveals high stiffness and gel-like chromatin organization. Commun. Biol. 3:1–7. doi:10.1038/s42003-020-01265-w.

      Cai, X., J.M. Stringer, N. Zerafa, J. Carroll, and K.J. Hutt. 2023. Xrcc5/Ku80 is required for the repair of DNA damage in fully grown meiotically arrested mammalian oocytes. Cell Death Dis. 14:1–9. doi:10.1038/s41419-023-05886-x.

      Collins, J.K., S.I.R. Lane, J.A. Merriman, and K.T. Jones. 2015. DNA damage induces a meiotic arrest in mouse oocytes mediated by the spindle assembly checkpoint. Nat. Commun. 6. doi:10.1038/ncomms9553.

      Harton, G.L., and H.G. Tempest. 2012. Chromosomal disorders and male infertility. Asian J. Androl. 14:32–39. doi:10.1038/aja.2011.66.

      He, Q., B. Au, M. Kulkarni, Y. Shen, K.J. Lim, J. Maimaiti, C.K. Wong, M.N.H. Luijten, H.C. Chong, E.H. Lim, G. Rancati, I. Sinha, Z. Fu, X. Wang, J.E. Connolly, and K.C. Crasta. 2018. Chromosomal instability-induced senescence potentiates cell non-autonomous tumourigenic effects. Oncogenesis. 7. doi:10.1038/s41389-018-0072-4.

      Hopkins, J., G. Hwang, J. Jacob, N. Sapp, R. Bedigian, K. Oka, P. Overbeek, S. Murray, and P.W. Jordan. 2014. Meiosis-Specific Cohesin Component, Stag3 Is Essential for Maintaining Centromere Chromatid Cohesion, and Required for DNA Repair and Synapsis between Homologous Chromosomes. PLoS Genet. 10:e1004413. doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.1004413.

      Lee, C., J. Leem, and J.S. Oh. 2023. Selective utilization of non-homologous end-joining and homologous recombination for DNA repair during meiotic maturation in mouse oocytes. Cell Prolif. 56:1–12. doi:10.1111/cpr.13384.

      Lee, J., S. Ogushi, M. Saitou, and T. Hirano. 2011. Condensins I and II are essential for construction of bivalent chromosomes in mouse oocytes. Mol. Biol. Cell. 22:3465–3477. doi:10.1091/mbc.E11-05-0423.

      Marangos, P., and J. Carroll. 2012. Oocytes progress beyond prophase in the presence of DNA damage. Curr. Biol. 22:989–994. doi:10.1016/j.cub.2012.03.063.

      Marangos, P., M. Stevense, K. Niaka, M. Lagoudaki, I. Nabti, R. Jessberger, and J. Carroll. 2015. DNA damage-induced metaphase i arrest is mediated by the spindle assembly checkpoint and maternal age. Nat. Commun. 6:1–10. doi:10.1038/ncomms9706.

      Poirier, M.G., and J.F. Marko. 2002. Mitotic chromosomes are chromatin networks without a mechanically contiguous protein scaffold. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U. S. A. 99:15393–15397. doi:10.1073/pnas.232442599.

      Pope, L.H., C. Xiong, and J.F. Marko. 2006. Proteolysis of Mitotic Chromosomes Induces Gradual and Anisotropic Decondensation Correlated with a Reduction of Elastic Modulus and Structural Sensitivity to Rarely Cutting Restriction Enzymes. Mol. Biol. Cell. 17:104. doi:10.1091/MBC.E05-04-0321.

      Dos Santos, Á., A.W. Cook, R.E. Gough, M. Schilling, N.A. Olszok, I. Brown, L. Wang, J. Aaron, M.L. Martin-Fernandez, F. Rehfeldt, and C.P. Toseland. 2021. DNA damage alters nuclear mechanics through chromatin reorganization. Nucleic Acids Res. 49:340–353. doi:10.1093/nar/gkaa1202.

      Sun, M., R. Biggs, J. Hornick, and J.F. Marko. 2018. Condensin controls mitotic chromosome stiffness and stability without forming a structurally contiguous scaffold. Chromosom. Res. 26:277–295. doi:10.1007/s10577-018-9584-1.

      Thompson, S.L., and D.A. Compton. 2011. Chromosomes and cancer cells. Chromosom. Res. 19:433–444. doi:10.1007/s10577-010-9179-y.

      Ward, A., J. Hopkins, M. Mckay, S. Murray, and P.W. Jordan. 2016. Genetic Interactions Between the Meiosis-Specific Cohesin Components, STAG3, REC8, and RAD21L. G3 (Bethesda). 6:1713–24. doi:10.1534/g3.116.029462.

      Winship, A.L., J.M. Stringer, S.H. Liew, and K.J. Hutt. 2018. The importance of DNA repair for maintaining oocyte quality in response to anti-cancer treatments, environmental toxins and maternal ageing. Hum. Reprod. Update. 24:119–134. doi:10.1093/humupd/dmy002.

      Xu, H., M.D. Beasley, W.D. Warren, G.T.J. van der Horst, and M.J. McKay. 2005. Absence of Mouse REC8 Cohesin Promotes Synapsis of Sister Chromatids in Meiosis. Dev. Cell. 8:949–961. doi:10.1016/j.devcel.2005.03.018.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1:<br /> (1) I still think that the authors need to set the importance of the differences in aggregation in the context of toxicity arising from protein misfolding/aggregation. While the authors state the limitation in the response, and I agree that a single manuscript cannot complete a field of investigation I still think that this is an important point missing from this manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for the comments, we are working to address this issue and will elucidate in our future studies.

      (2) I retain my reservations about the fluorescence intensity data shown for Rho123, DCF, Jc1, and MitoSox. The errors are much lower than what we typically achieve in biological experiments in our as well as our collaborator's lab. A glimpse at published literature would also support our statement. Specifically, RHO123 shows a large difference in errors between Figure 5 and Figure 5 Supplement 2. The point to note is that the absolute intensities do not vary between these figures, but the errors are the order of magnitude lower in the main figures. I, therefore, accept these figures in good faith without further interrogation.

      We really value these comments from the reviewer and also do not want to cause any potential misleading interpretations of the data. We have therefore asked a more experienced author to redo all the experiments on the physiological indicators (Rho123, JC1 and MitoSox) that directly reflect mitochondrial function, and left out the DCF data. The new experimental data are in line with our previous results. We have clearly described these changes in the Results, Materials and Methods and Figure legends sections.

      The new data from the redo experiments are: Rho123 fluorescence intensity data in Figure 5A, B and C; Figure 6B; JC1 staining in Figure 6E; JC1 staining in Figure 7A, B and D.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper introduces a new approach to modeling human behavioral responses using image-computable models. They create a model (VAM) that is a combination of a standard CNN coupled with a standard evidence accumulation model (EAM). The combined model is then trained directly on image-level data using human behavioral responses. This approach is original and can have wide applicability. However, many of the specific findings reported are less compelling.

      Strengths:

      (1) The manuscript presents an original approach to fitting an image-computable model to human behavioral data. This type of approach is sorely needed in the field.

      (2) The analyses are very technically sophisticated.

      (3) The behavioral data are large both in terms of sample size (N=75) and in terms of trials per subject.

      Weaknesses:

      Major

      (1) The manuscript appears to suggest that it is the first to combine CNNs with evidence accumulation models (EAMs). However, this was done in a 2022 preprint

      (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.08.23.505015v1) that introduced a network called RTNet. This preprint is cited here, but never really discussed. Further, the two unique features of the current approach discussed in lines 55-60 are both present to some extent in RTNet. Given the strong conceptual similarity in approach, it seems that a detailed discussion of similarities and differences (of which there are many) should feature in the Introduction.

      Thanks for pointing this out—we agree that the novel contributions of our model (the VAM) with respect to prior related models (including RTNet) should be clarified, and have revised the Introduction accordingly. We include the following clarifications in the Introduction:

      “The key feature of the VAM that distinguishes it from prior models is that the CNN and EAM parameters are jointly fitted to the RT, choice, and visual stimulus data from individual participants in a unified Bayesian framework. Thus, both the visual representations learned by the CNN and the EAM parameters are directly constrained by behavioral data. In contrast, prior models first optimize the CNN to perform the behavioral task, then separately fit a minimal set of high-level CNN parameters [RTNet, Rafiei et al., 2024] and/or the EAM parameters to behavioral data [Annis et al., 2021; Holmes et al., 2020; Trueblood et al., 2021]. As we will show, fitting the CNN with human data—rather than optimizing the model to perform a task—has significant consequences for the representations learned by the model.”

      E.g. in the case of RTNet, the variability of the Bayesian CNN weight distribution, the decision threshold, and the magnitude of the noise added to the images are adjusted to match the average human accuracy (separately for each task condition). RTNet is an interesting and useful model that we believe has complementary strengths to our own work.

      Since there are several other existing models in addition to the VAM and RTNet that use CNNs to generate RTs or RT proxies (by our count, at least six that we cite earlier in the Introduction), we felt it was inappropriate to preferentially include a detailed comparison of the VAM and RTNet beyond the passage quoted above.

      (2) In the approach here, a given stimulus is always processed in the same way through the core CNN to produce activations v_k. These v_k's are then corrupted by Gaussian noise to produce drift rates d_k, which can differ from trial to trial even for the same stimulus. In other words, the assumption built into VAM appears to be that the drift rate variability stems entirely from post-sensory (decisional) noise. In contrast, the typical interpretation of EAMs is that the variability in drift rates is sensory. This is also the assumption built into RTNet where the core CNN produces noisy evidence. Can the authors comment on the plausibility of VAM's assumption that the noise is post-sensory?

      In our view, the VAM is compatible with a model in which the drift rate variability for a given stimulus is due to sensory noise, since we do not specify the origin of the Gaussian noise added to the drift rates. As the reviewer notes, the CNN component of the VAM processes a given stimulus deterministically, yielding the mean drift rates. This does not preclude us from imagining an additional (unmodeled) sensory process that adds variability to the drift rates. The VAM simply represents this and other hypothetical sources of variability as additive Gaussian noise. We agree however that it is worthwhile to think about the origin of the drift rate variability, though it is not a focus of our work.

      (3) Figure 2 plots how well VAM explains different behavioral features. It would be very useful if the authors could also fit simple EAMs to the data to clarify which of these features are explainable by EAMs only and which are not.

      In our view, fitting simple EAMs to the data would not be especially informative and poses a number of challenges for the particular task we study (LIM) that are neatly avoided by using the VAM. In particular, as we show in Figure 2, the stimuli vary along several dimensions that all appear to influence behavior: horizontal position, vertical position, layout, target direction, and flanker direction. Since the VAM is stimulus-computable, fitting the VAM automatically discovers how all of these stimulus features influence behavior (via their effect on the drift rates outputted by the CNN). In contrast, fitting a simple EAM (e.g. the LBA model) necessitates choosing a particular parameterization that specifies the relationship between all of the stimulus features and the EAM model parameters. This raises a number of practical questions. For example, should we attempt to fit a separate EAM for each stimulus feature, or model all stimulus features simultaneously?

      Moreover, while we could in principle navigate these issues and fit simple EAMs to the data, we do not intend to claim that simple EAMs fail to explain the relationship between stimulus features and behavior as well as the VAM. Rather, the key strength of the VAM relative to simple EAMs is that it includes a detailed and biologically plausible model of human vision. The majority of the paper capitalizes on this strength by showing how behavioral effects of interest (namely congruency effects) can be explained in terms of the VAM’s visual representations.

      (4) VAM is tested in two different ways behaviorally. First, it is tested to what extent it captures individual differences (Figure 2B-E). Second, it is tested to what extent it captures average subject data (Figure 2F-J). It wasn't clear to me why for some metrics only individual differences are examined and for other metrics only average human data is examined. I think that it will be much more informative if separate figures examine average human data and individual difference data. I think that it's especially important to clarify whether VAM can capture individual differences for the quantities plotted in Figures 2F-J.

      We would like to clarify that Fig. 2J in fact already shows how well the VAM captures individual differences for the average subject data shown in Fig. 2H (stimulus layout) and Fig. 2I (stimulus position). For a given participant and stimulus feature, we calculated the Pearson's r between model/participant mean RTs across each stimulus feature value. Fig. 2J shows the distribution of these Pearson’s r values across all participants for stimulus layout and horizontal/vertical position.

      Fig. 2G also already shows how well the VAM captures individual differences in behavior. Specifically, this panel shows individual differences in mean RT attributable to differences in age. For Fig. 2F, which shows how the model drift rates differ on congruent vs. incongruent trials, there is no sensible way to compare the models to the participants at any level of analysis (since the participants do not have drift rates). 

      (5) The authors look inside VAM and perform many exploratory analyses. I found many of these difficult to follow since there was little guidance about why each analysis was conducted. This also made it difficult to assess the likelihood that any given result is robust and replicable. More importantly, it was unclear which results are hypothesized to depend on the VAM architecture and training, and which results would be expected in performance-optimized CNNs. The authors train and examine performance-optimized CNNs later, but it would be useful to compare those results to the VAM results immediately when each VAM result is first introduced.

      Thanks for pointing this out—we apologize for any confusion caused by our presentation of the CNN analyses. We have added in additional motivating statements, methodological clarifications, and relevant references to our Results, particularly for Figure 3 in which we first introduce the analyses of the CNN representations/activity. In general, each analysis is prefaced by a guiding question or specific rationale, e.g. “How do the models' visual representations enable target selectivity for stimuli that vary along several irrelevant dimensions?” We also provide numerous references in which these analysis techniques have been used to address similar questions in CNNs or the primate visual cortex.

      We chose to maintain the current organization of our results in which the comparison between the VAM and the task-optimized models are presented in a separate figure. We felt that including analyses of both the VAM and task-optimized models in the initial analyses of the CNN representations would be overwhelming for many readers. As the reviewer acknowledges, some readers may already find these results challenging to follow. 

      (6) The authors don't examine how the task-optimized models would produce RTs. They say in lines 371-2 that they "could not examine the RT congruency effect since the task-optimized models do not generate RTs." CNNs alone don't generate RTs, but RTs can easily be generated from them using the same EAM add-on that is part of VAM. Given that the CNNs are already trained, I can't see a reason why the authors can't train EAMs on top of the already trained CNNs and generate RTs, so these can provide a better comparison to VAM.

      We appreciate this suggestion, but we judge the suggestion to “train EAMs on top of the already trained CNNs and generate RTs” to be a significant expansion of the scope of the paper with multiple possible roads forward. In particular, one must specify how the outputs of the task-optimized CNN (logits for each possible response) relate to drift rates, and there is no widely-accepted or standard way to do this. Previously proposed methods include transforming representation distances in the last layer to drift rates (https://doi.org/10.1037/xlm0000968), fitting additional subject-specific parameters that map the logits to drift rates

      (https://doi.org/10.1007/s42113-019-00042-1), or using the softmax-scored model outputs as drift rates directly (https://doi.org/10.1038/s41562-024-01914-8), though in the latter case the RTs are not on the same scale as human data. In our view, evaluating these different methods is beyond the scope of this paper. An advantage of the VAM is that one does not have to fit two separate models (a CNN and a EAM) to generate RTs.

      Nonetheless, we agree that it would be informative to examine something like RTs in the task-optimized models. Our revised Results section now includes an analysis of the confidence of the task-optimized models’ decisions, which we use a proxy for RTs:   

      “Since the task-optimized models do not generate RTs, it is not possible to directly measure RT congruency effects in these models without making additional assumptions about how the CNN's classification decisions relate to RTs. However, as a coarse proxy for RT, we can examine the confidence of the CNN's decisions, defined as the softmax-scored logit (probability) of the most probable direction in the final CNN layer. This choice of RT proxy is motivated by some prior studies that have combined CNNs with EAMs [Annis et al., 2021; Holmes et al., 2020; Trueblood et al., 2021]. These studies explicitly or implicitly derive a measure of decision confidence from the activity of the last CNN layer. The confidence measure is then mapped to the EAM drift rates, such that greater decision confidence generally corresponds to higher drift rates (and therefore shorter RTs).

      We calculated the average confidence of each task-optimized CNN separately for congruent vs. incongruent trials. On average, the task-optimized models showed higher confidence on congruent vs. incongruent trials (W = 21.0, p < 1e-3, Wilcoxon signed-rank test; Cohen's d = 0.99; n = 75 models). These analyses therefore provide some evidence that task-optimized CNNs have the capacity to exhibit congruency effects, though an explicit comparison of the magnitude of these effects with human data requires additional modeling assumptions (e.g., fitting a separate EAM).”

      (7) The Discussion felt very long and mostly a summary of the Results. I also couldn't shake the feeling that it had many just-so stories related to the variety of findings reported. I think that the section should be condensed and the authors should be clearer about which explanations are speculations and which are air-tight arguments based on the data.

      We have shortened the Discussion modestly and we have added in some clarifying language to help clarify which arguments are more speculative vs. directly supported by our data.

      Specifically, we added in the phrase “we speculate that…” for two suggestions in the Discussion (paragraphs 3 and 5), and we ensured that any other more speculative suggestions contain such clarifying language. We have also added in subheadings in the Discussion to help readers navigate this section. 

      (8) In one of the control analyses, the authors train different VAMs on each RT quantile. I don't understand how it can be claimed that this approach can serve as a model of an individual's sensory processing. Which of the 5 sets of weights (5 VAMs) captures a given subject's visual processing? Are the authors saying that the visual system of a given subject changes based on the expected RT for a stimulus? I feel like I'm missing something about how the authors think about these results.

      We agree that these particular analyses may cause confusion and have removed them from our revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In an image-computable model of speeded decision-making, the authors introduce and fit a combined CCN-EAM (a 'VAM') to flanker-task-like data. They show that the VAM can fit mean RTs and accuracies as well as the congruency effect that is present in the data, and subsequently analyze the VAM in terms of where in the network congruency effects arise.

      Overall, combining DNNs and EAMs appears to be a promising avenue to seriously model the visual system in decision-making tasks compared to the current practice in EAMs. Some variants have been proposed or used before (e.g., doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2017.12.078 , doi.org/10.1007/s42113-019-00042-1), but always in the context of using task-trained models, rather than models trained on behavioral data. However, I was surprised to read that the authors developed their model in the context of a conflict task, rather than a simpler perceptual decision-making task. Conflict effects in human behavior are particularly complex, and thereby, the authors set a high goal for themselves in terms of the to-be-explained human behavior. Unfortunately, the proposed VAM does not appear to provide a great account of conflict effects that are considered fundamental features of human behavior, like the shape of response time distributions, and specifically, delta plots (doi.org/10.1037/0096-1523.20.4.731). The authors argue that it is beyond the scope of the presented paper to analyze delta plots, but as these are central to studies of human conflict behavior, models that aim to explain conflict behavior will need to be able to fit and explain delta plots.

      Theories on conflict often suggest that negative/positive-trending delta plots arise through the relative timing of response activation related to relevant and irrelevant information.

      Accumulation for relevant and irrelevant information would, as a result, either start at different points in time or the rates vary over time. The current VAM, as a feedforward neural network model, does not appear to be able to capture such effects, and perhaps fundamentally not so: accumulation for each choice option is forced to start at the same time, and rates are a static output of the CNN.

      The proposed solution of fitting five separate VAMs (one for each of five RT quantiles) is not satisfactory: it does not explain how delta plots result from the model, for the same reason that fitting five evidence accumulation models (one per RT quantile) does not explain how response time distributions arise. If, for example, one would want to make a prediction about someone's response time and choice based on a given stimulus, one would first have to decide which of the five VAMs to use, which is circular. But more importantly, this way of fitting multiple models does not explain the latent mechanism that underlies the shape of the delta plots.

      As such, the extensive analyses on the VAM layers and the resulting conclusions that conflict effects arise due to changing representations across layers (e.g., "the selection of task-relevant information occurs through the orthogonalization of relevant and irrelevant representations") - while inspiring, they remain hard to weigh, as they are contingent on the assumption that the VAM can capture human behavior in the conflict task, which it struggles with. That said, the promise of combining CNNs and EAMs is clearly there. A way forward could be to either adjust the proposed model so that it can explain delta plots, which would potentially require temporal dynamics and time-varying evidence accumulation rates, or perhaps to start simpler and combine CCNs-EAMs that are able to fit more standard perceptual decision-making tasks without conflict effects.

      We thank the reviewer for their thoughtful comments on our work. However, we note that the

      VAM does in fact capture the positive-trending RT delta plot observed in the participant data (Fig. S4A), though the intercepts for models/participants differ somewhat. On the other hand, the conditional accuracy functions (Fig. S4B) reveal a more pronounced difference between model and participant behavior. As the reviewer points out, capturing these effects is likely to require a model that can produce time-varying drift rates, whereas our model produces a fixed drift rate for a given stimulus. We also agree that fitting a separate VAM to each RT quantile is not a satisfactory means of addressing this limitation and have removed these analyses from our revised manuscript.

      However, while we agree that accurately capturing these dynamic effects is a laudable goal, it is in our view also worthwhile to consider explanations for the mean behavioral effect (i.e. the accuracy congruency effect), which can occur independently of any consideration of dynamics. One of our main findings is that across-model variability in accuracy congruency effects is better attributed to variation in representation geometry (target/flanker subspace alignment) vs.

      variation in the degree of flanker suppression. This finding does not require any consideration of dynamics to be valid at the level of explanation we pursue (across-user variability in congruency effects), but also does not preclude additional dynamic processes that could give rise to more specific error patterns. Our revised discussion now includes a section where we summarize and elaborate on these ideas:

      “It is not difficult to imagine how the orthogonalization mechanism described above, which explains variability in accuracy congruency effects across individuals, could act in concert with other dynamic processes that explain variability in congruency effects within individuals (e.g., as a function of RT). In general, any process that dynamically gates the influence of irrelevant sensory information on behavioral outputs could accomplish this, for example ramping inhibition of incorrect response activation [https://doi.org/10.3389/fnhum.2010.00222], a shrinking attention spotlight [https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cogpsych.2011.08.001], or dynamics in neural population-level geometry [https://doi.org/10.1038/nn.3643]. To pursue these ideas, future work may aim to incorporate dynamics into the visual component and decision component of the VAM with recurrent CNNs [https://doi.org/10.48550/arXiv.1807.00053, https://doi.org/10.48550/arXiv.2306.11582] and the task-DyVA model [https://doi.org/10.1038/s41562-022-01510-8], respectively.”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this article, the authors combine a well-established choice-response time (RT) model (the Linear Ballistic Accumulator) with a CNN model of visual processing to model image-based decisions (referred to as the Visual Accumulator Model - VAM). While this is not the first effort to combine these modeling frameworks, it uses this combination of approaches uniquely.

      Specifically, the authors attempt to better understand the structure of human information representations by fitting this model to behavioral (choice-RT) data from a classic flanker task. This objective is made possible by using a very large (by psychological modeling standards) industry data set to jointly fit both components of this VAM model to individual-level data. Using this approach, they illustrate (among other results) (1) how the interaction between target and flanker representations influence the presence and strength of congruency effects, (2) how the structure of representations changes (distributed versus more localized) with depth in the CNN model component, and (3) how different model training paradigms change the nature of information representations. This work contributes to the ML literature by demonstrating the value of training models with richer behavioral data. It also contributes to cognitive science by demonstrating how ML approaches can be integrated into cognitive modeling. Finally, it contributes to the literature on conflict modeling by illustrating how information representations may lead to some of the classic effects observed in this area of research.

      Strengths:

      (1) The data set used for this analysis is unique and is made publicly available as part of this article. Specifically, they have access to data for 75 participants with >25,000 trials per participant. This scale of data/individual is unusual and is the foundation on which this research rests.

      (2) This is the first time, to my knowledge, that a model combining a CNN with a choice-RT model has been jointly fit to choice-RT data at the level of individual people. This type of model combination has been used before but in a more restricted context. This joint fitting, and in particular, learning a CNN through the choice-RT modeling framework, allows the authors to probe the structure of human information representations learned directly from behavioral data.

      (3) The analysis approaches used in this article are state-of-the-art. The training of these models is straightforward given the data available. The interesting part of this article (opinion of course) is the way in which they probe what CNN has learned once trained. I find their analysis of how distractor and target information interfere with each other particularly compelling as well as their demonstration that training on behavioral data changes the structure of information representations when compared to training models on standard task-optimized data.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Just as the data in this article is a major strength, it is also a weakness. This type of modeling would be difficult, if not impossible to do with standard laboratory data. I don't know what the data floor would be, but collecting tens of thousands of decisions for a single person is impractical in most contexts. Thus this type of work may live in the realm of industry. I do want to re-iterate that the data for this study was made publicly available though!

      We suspect (but have not systematically tested) that the VAMs can be fitted with substantially less data. We use data augmentation techniques (various randomized image transformations) during training to improve the generalization capabilities of the VAMs, and these methods are likely to be particularly important when training on smaller datasets. One could consider increasing the amount of image data augmentation when working with smaller datasets, or pursuing other forms of data augmentation like resampling from estimated RT distributions (see https://doi.org/10.1038/s41562-022-01510-8 for an example of this). In general, we don’t think that prospective users of our approach should be discouraged if they have only a few hundred trials per subject (or less) - it’s worth trying!

      (2) While this article uses choice-RT data it doesn't fully leverage the richness of the RT data itself. As the authors point out, this modeling framework, the LBA component in particular, does not account for some of the more nuanced but well-established RT effects in this data. This is not a big concern given the already nice contributions of this article and it leads to an opportunity for ongoing investigation.

      We agree that fully capturing the more nuanced behavioral effects you mention (e.g. RT delta plots and conditional accuracy functions) is a worthwhile goal for future research—see our response to Reviewer #2 for a more detailed discussion. ----------

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The phrase in the Abstract "convolutional neural network models of visual processing and traditional EAMs are jointly fitted" made me initially believe that the two models were fitted independently. You may want to re-word to clarify.

      We think that the phrase “jointly fitted” already makes it clear that both the CNN and EAM parameters are estimated simultaneously, in agreement with how this term is usually used. But we have nonetheless appended some additional clarifying language to that sentence (“in a unified Bayesian framework”).

      (2) Lines 27-28: EAMs "are the most successful and widely-used computational models of decision-making." This is only true for the specific type of decision-making examined here, namely joint modeling of choice and response times. Signal detection theory is arguably more widely-used when response times are not modeled.

      Thanks for pointing this out - we have revised the referenced sentence accordingly.

      (3) Could the authors clarify what is plotted in Figure 2F?

      Fig. 2F shows the drift rates for the target, flanker, and “other” (non-target/non-flanker) accumulators averaged over trials and models for congruent vs. incongruent trials. In case this was a source of confusion, we do not show the value of the flanker drift rates on congruent trials because the flanker and target accumulators are identical (i.e. the flanker/congruent drift rates are equivalent to the target/congruent drift rates).

      (4) Lines 214-7: "The observation that single-unit information for target direction decreased between the fourth and final convolutional layers while population-level decoding remained high is especially noteworthy in that it implies a transition from representing target direction with specialized "target neurons" to a more distributed, ensemble-level code." Can the authors clarify why this is the only reasonable explanation for these results? It seems like many other explanations could be construed.

      We have added additional clarification to this section and now use more tentative language:

      “The observation that single-unit information for target direction decreased between the fourth and final convolutional layers indicates that the units become progressively less selective for particular target directions. Since population-level decoding remained high in these layers, this suggests a transition from representing target direction with specialized "target neurons" to a more distributed, ensemble-level code.”

      (5) Lines 372-376: "Thus, simply training the model to perform the task is not sufficient to reproduce a behavioral phenomenon widely-observed in conflict tasks. This challenges a core (but often implicit) assumption of the task-optimized training paradigm, namely that to do a task well, a training model will result in model representations that are similar to those employed by humans." While I agree with the general sentiment, I feel that its application here is strange. Unless I'm missing something, in the context of the preceding sentence, the authors seem to be saying that researchers in the field expect that CNNs can produce a behavioral phenomenon (RTs) that is completely outside of their design and training. I don't think that anyone actually expects that.

      We moved the discussion/analyses of RTs to the next paragraph. It should now be clear that this statement refers specifically to the absence of an accuracy congruency effect in the task-optimized models.

      (6) Lines 387-389: "As a result, the VAMs may learn richer representations of the stimuli, since a variety of stimulus features-layout, stimulus position, flanker direction-influence behavior (Figure 2)." That is certainly true of tasks like this one where an optimal model would only focus on a tiny part of the image, whereas humans are distracted by many features. I'm not sure that this distractibility is the same as "richer representations". When CNNs classify images based on the background, would the authors claim that they have richer representations than humans?

      We agree that “richer” may not be the best way to characterize these representations, and have changed it to “more complex”.

      (7) Is it possible that drift rate d_k for each response happens to be negative on a given trial? If so, how is the decision given on such trials (since presumably none of the accumulators will ever reach the boundary)?

      It is indeed possible for all of the drift rates to be negative, though we found that this occurred for a vanishingly small number of trials (mean ± s.e.m. percent trials/model: 0.080 ± 0.011%, n = 75 models), as reported in the Methods. These trials were excluded from analyses.

      (8)  Can the authors comment on how they chose the CNN architecture and whether they expect that different architectures will produce similar results?

      Before establishing the seven-layer CNN architecture used throughout the paper, we conducted some preliminary experiments using other architectures that differed primarily in the number of CNN layers. We found that models with significantly fewer than seven layers typically failed to reach human-level accuracy on the task while larger models achieved human-level accuracy but (unsurprisingly) took longer to train.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      - In the introduction to this paper (particularly the paragraph beginning in line 33), the authors note that EAMs have typically been used in simplified settings and that they do not provide a means to account for how people extract information from naturalistic stimuli. While I agree with this, the idea of connecting CNNs of visual processing with EAMs for a joint modeling framework has been done. I recommend looking at and referencing these two articles as well as adjusting the tenor of this part of an introduction to better reflect the current state of the literature. For full disclosure, I am one of the authors on these articles. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s42113-019-00042-1 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0010027721001323

      We agree—thanks for pointing this out. The revised Introduction now discusses prior related models in more detail (including those referenced above) and better clarifies the novel contributions of our model. We specifically highlight that a novel contribution of the VAM is that “the CNN and EAM parameters are jointly fitted to the RT, choice, and visual stimulus data from individual participants in a unified Bayesian framework.”

      - The statement in lines 56-58 implies that this is the first article to glue CNNs together with EAMs. I would edit this accordingly based on the prior comment here and references provided. I will note that the second feature of the approach in this paper is still novel and really nice, namely the fact that the CNN and the EAM are jointly fitted. In the aforementioned references, the CNN is trained on the image set, and individual level Bayesian estimation was only applied to the EAM. Thus, it may be useful to highlight the joint estimation aspect of this investigation as well as how the uniqueness of the data available makes it possible.

      Agreed—see above.

      - Figure 3c and associated text. I understand the MI analysis you are performing here, however it is difficult to interpret as it stands. In the figure, what does a MI of 0.1 mean?? Can you give some context to that scale? I do find the interpretation of the hunchback shape in lines 210-222 to be somewhat of a stretch. The discussion that precedes (lines 199-209) this is clear and convincing. Can this discussion be strengthened more? And more interpretability of Figure 3c would be helpful; entropic scales can be hard to interpret without some context or scale associated.

      The MI analyses in Fig. 3C (and also Figs. 4C and 6E) show normalized MI, in which the raw MI has been divided by the entropy of the stimulus feature distribution. This normalization facilitates comparing the MI for different stimulus features, which is relevant for Figs. 4C and 6E. The normalized MI has a possible range of [0, 1], where 1 indicates perfect correlation between the two variables and 0 indicates complete independence. We now note in the legend of these figures that the possible normalized MI range is [0, 1], which should help with interpreting these values. Our revised results section for Fig. 3C now also includes some additional remarks on our interpretation of the hunchback shape of the MI.

      - Lines 244-248 and the analyses in Figure 3 suggest a change in the behavior of the CNN around layer 4. This is just a musing, but what would happen if you just used a 4 layer CNN, or even a 3 layer? This is not just a methods question. Your analysis suggests a transition from localized to distributed information representation. Right now, the EAM only sees the output of the distributed representation. What if it saw the results the more local representations from early layers? Of course, a shallower network may just form the distributed representations earlier, but it would interesting if there were a way to tease out not just the presence of distributed vs local representations, but the utility of those to the EAM.

      Thanks for this interesting suggestion. We did do some preliminary experiments in models with fewer layers, though we only examined the outputs of these models and did not assess their representations. We found that models with 3–5 layers generally failed to achieve human-level accuracy on the task. In principle, one could relate this observation to the representations of these models as a means of assessing the relative utility of distributed/local representations. However, there are confounding factors that one would ideally control for in order to compare models with different numbers of layers in this fashion (namely, the number of parameters).

      - Section Line 359 (Task optimized models) - It would be helpful to clarify here what these task-optimized models are being trained to do. As I understand it, they are being trained to directly predict the target direction. But are you asking them to learn to predict the true target direction? Or are you training them to predict what each individual responds? I think it is the second (since you have 75 of these), but it's not clear. I looked at the methods and still couldn't get a clear description of this. Also, are you just stripping the LBA off of the end of the CNN and then essentially putting a softmax in its place? If so, it would be helpful to say so.

      The task-optimized models were actually trained to output the true target direction in each stimulus, rather than trained to match the decisions of the human participants. We trained 75 such models since we wanted to use exactly the same stimuli as were used to train each VAM. The task-optimized CNNs were identical to those used in the VAMs, except that the outputs of the last layer were converted to softmax-scored probabilities for each direction rather than drift rates. The Results and Methods section now included additional commentary that clarifies these points.

      - Line 373-376: This statement is pretty well established at this point in the similarity judgement literature. I recommend looking at and referencing https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/cogs.13226 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-00951-3 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s42113-020-00073-z

      Thanks for pointing this out. For reference, the statement in question is “Thus, simply training the model to perform the task is not sufficient to reproduce a behavioral phenomenon widely-observed in conflict tasks. This challenges a core (but often implicit) assumption of the task-optimized training paradigm, namely that training a model to do a task well will result in model representations that are similar to those employed by humans.”

      We agree that the first and third reference you mention are relevant, and we now cite them along with some other relevant work. In our view, the second reference you mention is not particularly relevant (that paper introduces a new computational model for similarity judgements that is fit to human data, but does not comment on training models to perform tasks vs. fitting to human data).

      - Line 387-388: "VAMs may learn richer representations". This is a bit of a philosophical point, but I'll go ahead and mention it. The standard VAM does not necessarily learn "richer" feature representations. Rather, you are asking the VAM and task-optimized models to do different things. As a result, they learn different representations. "Better" or "richer" is in the eye of the beholder. In one view, you could view the VAM performance as sub-par since it exhibits strange artifacts (congruency effects) and the expansion of dimensionality in the VAM representations is merely a side-effect of poor performance. I'm not advocating this view, just playing devils advocate and suggesting a more nuanced discussion of the difference between the VAM and task-optimized models.

      We agree—this is a great point. We have changed this statement to read “the VAMs may learn more complex [rather than richer] representations of the stimuli”.

      - Lines 567-570: Here you discuss how the LBA backend of the VAM can't account for shrinking spotlight-like RT effects but that fitting models to different RT quantiles helps overcome this. I find this to be one of the weakest points of the paper (the whole process of fitting RT quantiles separately to begin with). This is just a limitation of the RT component of the model. This is a great paper but this is just a limitation inherent in the model. I don't see a need to qualify this limitation and think it would be better to just point out that this is a limitation of the LBA itself (be more clear that it is the LBA that is the limiting factor here) and that this leaves room for future research. From your last sentence of this paragraph, I agree that recurrent CNNs would be interesting. I will note that RNN choice-RT models are out there (though not with CNNs as part of the model).

      We agree and have revised this section of the Discussion accordingly (see our response to Reviewer #2 for more detail). We also removed the analyses of models trained on separate RT quantiles.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      The study presents a potentially valuable approach to genetically modify cells to produce extracellular matrices with altered compositions, termed cell-laid, engineered extracellular matrices (eECM). The evidence supporting the authors' conclusions regarding the utility of eECM for endogenous repair is solid, although there are some disagreements on the chondrogenicity of lyophilized constructs which was viewed as lacking robust evidence for endochondral ossification.

      We thank the reviewers for the assessment of our work. We however strongly contest the lack of evidence for chondrogenicity and endochondral ossification. This is robustly demonstrated and a clear strength of our study.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors aimed to modify the characteristics of the extracellular matrix (ECM) produced by immortalized mesenchymal stem cells (MSCs) by employing the CRISPR/Cas9 system to knock out specific genes. Initially, they established VEGF-KO cell lines, demonstrating that these cells retained chondrogenic and angiogenic properties. Additionally, lyophilized carriage tissues produced by these cells exhibited retained osteogenic properties.

      Subsequently, the authors established RUNX2-KO cell lines, which exhibited reduced COLX expression during chondrogenic differentiation and notably diminished osteogenic properties in vitro. Transplantation of lyophilized carriage tissues produced by RUNX2-KO cell lines into osteochondral defects in rat knee joints resulted in the regeneration of articular cartilage tissues as well as bone tissues, a phenomenon not observed with tissues derived from parental cells. This suggests that gene-edited MSCs represent a valuable cell source for producing ECM with enhanced quality.

      Strengths:

      The enhanced cartilage regeneration observed with ECM derived from RUNX2-KO cells supports the authors' strategy of creating gene-edited MSCs capable of producing ECM with superior quality. Immortalized cell lines offer a limitless source of off-the-shelf material for tissue regeneration.

      Weaknesses:

      Most of the data align with anticipated outcomes, offering limited novelty to advance scientific understanding. Methodologically, the chondrogenic differentiation properties of immortalized MSCs appeared deficient, evidenced by Safranin-O staining of 3D tissues and histological findings lacking robust evidence for endochondral differentiation. This presents a critical limitation, particularly as authors propose the implantation of cartilage tissues for in vivo experiments. Instead, the bulk of data stemmed from type I collagen scaffold with factors produced by MSCs stimulated by TGFβ.

      We thank the reviewer for the thorough evaluation. We appreciate the highlighted novelty but overall disagree with key points from the provided assessment. The most important one being non the contested in vitro cartilage and endochondral ossification by engineered ECMs, for which we have provided compelling evidence. Of note, the reviewer points the “osteogenic” properties of our tissues; the wording is incorrect since cells are absent from the final grafts. Here, the term ”osteoinductivity” should be employed, in line with the model of ectopic ossification used to demonstrate de novo bone formation.

      In the revised version, the authors presented Safranin-O staining results of pellets prior to lyophilization. The inset of figures showing entire pellets revealed that Safranin-O-positive areas were limited, suggesting that cells in the negative regions had not differentiated into chondrocytes. In Figure 3F, DAPI staining showed devitalized cells in the outer layer but was negative in the central part, indicating the absence of cells in these areas and incomplete differentiation induction.

      We strongly disagree with the reviewer on the lack of demonstrated chondrogenicity. We have provided evidence of Safranin-O positivity, GAGs quantification, as well as collagen type 2 and collagen type X stainings (also quantified). Frankly, those are gold standard assays in the field and we do not understand the reviewer point of view. We however agree that our grafts are not entirely composed of cartilage matrix. There are areas where cartilage is absent, in particular in the core of the tissues. This is expected from in vitro engineered cartilage pellets even from primary BM-MSCs donors. By selecting primary donors it is possible to obtain a superior cartilage formation. Our MSOD-B cells remain to-the-best-of-our -knowledge, the only human line capable of in vitro chondrogenesis, even if considered moderate.

      We agree with the absence of cells in the core area of our tissues, as correctly pointed out by the reviewer. This has been reported in other studies whereby the lack of media diffusion can lead to necrotic core formation.

      The rationale for establishing VEGF-KO cell lines remains unclear, and the authors' explanation in the revised manuscript is still equivocal. While they mention that VEGF is a late marker for endochondral ossification, the data in Figures 1D and 1E clearly show that VEGF-KO affects the early phase of endochondral ossification.

      We feel that the rationale for a VEGF-KO is sufficiently conveyed. In our study, VEGF-KO affects GAGs content in the tissue, but not the efficiency of ossification.

      Insufficient depth was given to elucidate the disparity in osteogenic properties between those observed in ectopic bone formation and those observed in transplantation into osteochondral defects.

      We here agree with the reviewer on the limited depth of our osteochondral assessment. However, this was performed as a proof-of-concept and we clearly conveyed both limitations and need of a follow-up study to demonstrate the repair efficacy of our tissue in such defect context.

      In the ectopic bone formation study, most of the collagenous matrix observed at 2 weeks was resorbed by 6 weeks, with only a small amount contributing to bone formation in MSOD-B cells (Figs. 2I and 4C). This finding does not align with the micro-CT data presented in Figures 2H and 4B. For the micro-CT experiments, it would be more appropriate to use a standard window for bone and present the data accordingly.

      Stainings report the deposition of collagens and may be misleading as not only indicating frank bone formation. This is the reason why we provided microCT data, offering a quantitative assessment of the full grafts and more reliably evaluating mineralized/bone tissue. We feel that our results matched our conclusions.

      While the regeneration of articular cartilage in RUNX2-KO ECM presents intriguing results, the study lacked an exploration into underlying mechanisms, such as histological analyses at earlier time points.

      We do agree with the reviewer regarding this limitation. In addition to mechanisms and early timepoints, we are also interested in longer in vivo evaluation. This represents a significant amount of work which is beyond the scope of our present manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors have started off using an immortalized human cell line and then gene edited it to decrease the levels of VEGF1 (in order to influence vascularization), and the levels of Runx2 (to decrease osteogenesis). They first transplanted these cells with a collagen scaffold. The modified cells showed a decrease in vascularization when VEGF1 was decreased, and suggested an increase in cartilage formation.

      In another study, matrix generated by these cells subsequently remodeled into a bone marrow organ. When RUNX2 was decreased, the cells did not mineralize in vitro, and their matrices expressed types I and II collagen but not type X collagen in vitro, in comparison with unedited cells. In vivo, the author claims that remodeling of the matrices into bone was somewhat inhibited. Lastly, they utilized matrices generated by RUNX2-edited cells to regenerate chondro-osteal defects. They suggest that the edited cells regenerated cartilage in comparison with unedited cells.

      Strengths:

      - The notion that inducing changes in the ECM by genetically editing the cells is a novel one, as it has long been thought that ECM composition influences cell activity.

      - If successful, it may be possible to make off the shelf ECMS to carry out different types of tissue repair.

      Weaknesses:

      - The authors have not demonstrated robust cartilage formation (quantitation would be useful).

      - Measuring total GAG content does not prove the presence of cartilage

      - There are numerous overstatements about forming and implanting cartilage.

      - Although it is implied, RUNX2 deletion did not improve cartilage formation by the modified cells.

      - In the control line, MSOD-B there were variability in the amount of safranin O positive material in various histological panels in the figures.; more quantitation is needed.

      - In the in vivo articular defect experiments, an untreated injured joint is needed as a negative control.

      - Statements about bone generation are often not reflective of the microCT data presented.<br /> - The discussion over-interprets the results.

      We thank the reviewer for the further assessment of our work. We respectfully disagree with most of the provided statements. The chondrogenicity of our graft is robustly demonstrated using multiple readouts, including quantitative ones. Beyond GAGs, we provided clear Safranin-O stainings, as well as collagen type 2 and X indicating presence of hypertrophic cartilage matrix. Those are the gold standards in the field and we thus do not understand the reviewer scepticism. We do agree that our grafts are fully composed of cartilage matrix, with areas (in the core) deprived of cartilage. This does not impact the core findings of our study and its conclusions, and we strongly feel our statements about forming in vitro cartilage fully stand.

      We do not claim in the manuscript an increased cartilage formation following RUNX2 deletion. We report in vitro an impaired hypertrophy (collagen type X) and maintenance of collagen type 2 and GAGs content.

      We are confident on our data regarding de novo bone formation bi priming endochondral ossification, confirmed both by stainings and microCT. We feel that our claims are well-supported.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      The authors aimed to modify the characteristics of the extracellular matrix (ECM) produced by immortalized mesenchymal stem cells (MSCs) by employing the CRISPR/Cas9 system to knock out specific genes. Initially, they established VEGF-KO cell lines, demonstrating that these cells retained chondrogenic and angiogenic properties. Additionally, lyophilized carriage tissues produced by these cells exhibited retained osteogenic properties. 

      Subsequently, the authors established RUNX2-KO cell lines, which exhibited reduced COLX expression during chondrogenic differentiation and notably diminished osteogenic properties in vitro. Transplantation of lyophilized carriage tissues produced by RUNX2-KO cell lines into osteochondral defects in rat knee joints resulted in the regeneration of articular cartilage tissues as well as bone tissues, a phenomenon not observed with tissues derived from parental cells. This suggests that gene-edited MSCs represent a valuable cell source for producing ECM with enhanced quality. 

      Strengths: 

      The enhanced cartilage regeneration observed with ECM derived from RUNX2-KO cells supports the authors' strategy of creating gene-edited MSCs capable of producing ECM with superior quality. Immortalized cell lines offer a limitless source of off-the-shelf material for tissue regeneration. 

      We thank the reviewer for the interest in our work. We however want to clarify that the present manuscript does not report the generation of ECM with “superior quality”, but rather of modulated composition and thus function.  

      Weaknesses: 

      Most data align with anticipated outcomes, offering limited novelty to advance scientific understanding. Methodologically, the chondrogenic differentiation properties of immortalized MSCs appeared deficient, evidenced by Safranin-O staining of 3D tissues and histological findings lacking robust evidence for endochondral differentiation. This presents a critical limitation, particularly as authors propose the implantation of cartilage tissues for in vivo experiments. Instead, the bulk of data stemmed from type I collagen scaffold with factors produced by MSCs stimulated by TGFβ. 

      The chondrogenic differentiation of our MSOD-B line and their capacity of undergoing endochondral ossification has been robustly demonstrated in previous studies (Pigeot et al., Advanced Materials 2021 and Grigoryan et al., Science Translational Medicine 2022). In the present manuscript, we thus compare the chondrogenic capacity of newly established VEGF-KO and RUNX-KO lines to those of MSOD-B cells. We demonstrate by qualitative (Safranin-O staining, Collagen type 2 and Collagen type X immuno-stainings) and quantitative (glycosaminoglycans assay) assays that the generated tissues consist in cartilage grafts of similar quality than the MSOD-B counterpart. Of note, the safranin-O stainings were performed on lyophilized tissues, which can alter the staining quality/intensity. We now provide additional stainings of generated tissues pre-lyophilization. This is implemented in Figure 1D, Figure 3D.

      The rationale behind establishing VEGF-KO cell lines remains unclear. What specific outcomes did the authors anticipate from this modification? 

      VEGF is a known master regulator of angiogenesis and a key mediator of endochondral ossification. It has also been extensively used in bone tissue engineering studies as a supplemented factor – primarily in the form of VEGFα – to increase the vascularization and thus outcome of bone formation of engineered grafts (https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-020-01606-9, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S8756328216301752). In our study, it was thus identified as a natural candidate to demonstrate the possibility to generate VEGF-KO cartilage and subsequently assess the functional impact on both the angiogenic and osteogenic potential of resulting cartilage tissue. This is now clarified in the manuscript (page 3, paragraph 4).

      Insufficient depth was given to elucidate the disparity in osteogenic properties between those observed in ectopic bone formation and those observed in transplantation into osteochondral defects. While the regeneration of articular cartilage in RUNX2-KO ECM presents intriguing results, the study lacked an exploration into underlying mechanisms, such as histological analyses at earlier time points. 

      Using RUNX2-KO ECM, we aimed at demonstrating the impact on cartilage remodeling and bone formation. This was performed ectopically but also in the rat osteochondral defect as a regenerative set-up of higher clinical relevance. We agree with the reviewer that additional experimental groups and time-points (not only earlier but also longer ones) would offer a better mechanistic understanding of the ECM contribution to the joint repair. However, as stated in our manuscript this is a proof-of-concept study that successfully demonstrated the influence of the cartilage ECM modification on the in vivo skeletal regeneration. A follow-up study would need to be performed to complement existing evidence and strengthen the relevance of our approach for cartilage repair. This is now further emphasized in the discussion (page 11, paragraph 3).  

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      The manuscript submitted by Sujeethkumar et al. describes an alternative approach to skeletal tissue repair using extracellular matrix (ECM) deposited by genetically modified mesenchymal stromal/stem cells. Here, they generate a loss of function mutations in VEGF or RUNX2 in a BMP2overexpressing MSC line and define the differences in the resulting tissue-engineered constructs following seeding onto a type I collagen matrix in vitro, and following lyophilization and subcutaneous and orthotopic implantation into mice and rats. Some strengths of this manuscript are the establishment of a platform by which modifications in cell-derived ECM can be evaluated both in vitro and in vivo, the demonstration that genetic modification of cells results in complexity of in vitro cell-derived ECM that elicits quantifiable results, and the admirable goal to improve endogenous cartilage repair. However, I recommend the authors clarify their conclusions and add more information regarding reproducibility, which was one limitation of primary-cell-derived ECMs. 

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation of our work.  

      Overcoming the limitations of native/autologous/allogeneic ECMs such as complete decellularization and reduction of batch-to-batch variability was not specifically addressed in the data provided herein. For the maintenance of ECM organization and complexity following lyophilization, evidence of complete decellularization was not addressed, but could be easily evaluated using polarized light microscopy and quantification of human DNA for example in constructs pre and post-lyophilization. 

      We appreciate the reviewer comments and acknowledge the lack of information in the first version of our manuscript. In line with our previous study (Pigeot et al., Advanced Materials 2021), the ectopic evaluation of our cartilage pellets was strictly done with lyophilized tissues using immunocompromised animals. Lyophilized tissues are thus considered devitalized, and not decellularized. Instead, the osteochondral defect experiment was performed with decellularized tissues in order to be able to implant the grafts in the rat immuno-competent model. This is now specified consistently throughout the manuscript. The decellularization process is also now incorporated accordingly in the method section (page 14, paragraph 2). We also provide quantifications of GAGs and DNAs from tissue pre- and post-decellularization (Supplementary figure 6A and 6B), described in the result section of the manuscript (page 9, paragraph 1). The decellularization step led to 97-98% of DNA removal.

      Importantly, we do not claim full maintenance of ECM integrity following lyophilization nor decellularization.  This is now clarified in the discussion (page 12, paragraph 2). However, we report their capacity to instruct skeletal regeneration in multiple contexts despite extensive processing.

      It would be ideal to see minimization of batch-to-batch variability using this approach, as mitigation of using a sole cell line is likely not sufficient (considering that the sole cell line-derived Matrigel does exhibit batch-to-batch and manufacturer-to-manufacturer variability). I recommend adding details regarding experimental design and outcomes not initially considered. Inter- and intraexperimental reproducibility was not adequately addressed. The size of in vitro-derived cartilage pellets was not quantified, and it is not clear that more than one independent 'differentiation' was performed from each gene-edited MSC line to generate in vitro replicates and constructs that were implanted in vivo. 

      We thank the Reviewer for the comment on variability/reproducibility concern. Using a cell line does confer higher robustness but indeed does not grant unlimited consistency of batch production. We now temper our claims in the discussion and mention the need to regularly recharacterize cell lines properties upon passages (page 12, paragraph 2). Using our edited lines, we have generated multiple batches of cartilage grafts for their in vitro characterization or in vivo performance assessment. We have now compiled batch variations of GAG content and pellet volume, provided as Supplementary figure 5. This revealed that batches are indeed not identical (nor each pellets), but the production remains consistent.

      The use of descriptive language in describing conclusions may mislead the reader and should be modified accordingly throughout the manuscript. For example, although this reviewer agrees with the comparative statements made by the authors regarding parental and gene-edited MSC lines, non-quantifiable terms such as 'frank' 'superior' (example, line 242) are inappropriate and should rather be discussed in terms of significance. Another example is 'rich-collagenous matrix,' which was not substantiated by uniform immunostaining for type II collagen (line 189). 

      We thank the Reviewer for the constructive suggestions. We have revised the language accordingly throughout the manuscript. 

      I have similar recommendations regarding conclusive statements from the rat implantation model, which was appropriately used for the purpose of evaluating the response of native skeletal cells to the different cell-derived ECMs. Interpretations of these results should be described with more accuracy. For example, increased TRAP staining does not indicate reduced active bone formation (line 237). Many would not conclude that GAGs were retained in the RUNX2-KO line graft subchondral region based on the histology. Quantification of % chondral regeneration using histology is not accurate as it is greatly influenced by the location in the defect from which the section was taken. Chondral regeneration is usually semi-quantified from gross observations of the cartilage surface immediately following excision. The statements regarding integration (example line 290) are not founded by histological evidence, which should show high magnification of the periphery of the graft adjacent to the native tissue. 

      We have revised our language relative to the TRAP staining description (page 9, paragraph 2). We also agree with the reviewer on the semi-quantitative approach of our methodology,  which we transparently disclosed both in the main text (page 9, paragraph 3) and method section (page 18, paragraph 2). The sectioning location does influence the analysis, but to prevent this we performed an assessment at different depth (top, middle, bottom for each sample). This is now implemented in our method section (page 18, paragraph 3). On the tissue integration, we now provide higher magnification images of the implant/host tissue area (Figure 5F).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      In this study, the authors have started off using an immortalized human cell line and then geneedited it to decrease the levels of VEGF1 (in order to influence vascularization), and the levels of Runx2 (to decrease chondro/osteogenesis). They first transplanted these cells with a collagen scaffold. The modified cells showed a decrease in vascularization when VEGF1 was decreased, and suggested an increase in cartilage formation. 

      In another study, the matrix generated by these cells was subsequently remodeled into a bone marrow organ. When RUNX2 was decreased, the cells did not mineralize in vitro, and their matrices expressed types I and II collagen but not type X collagen in vitro, in comparison with unedited cells. In vivo, the author claims that remodeling of the matrices into bone was somewhat inhibited. Lastly, they utilized matrices generated by RUNX2 edited cells to regenerate chondro-osteal defects. They suggest that the edited cells regenerated cartilage in comparison with unedited cells. 

      Strengths: 

      - The notion that inducing changes in the ECM by genetically editing the cells is a novel one, as it has long been thought that ECM composition influences cell activity. 

      - If successful, it may be possible to make off-the-shelf ECMS to carry out different types of tissue repair. 

      We thank the Reviewer for the critical evaluation of our work and the highlighted novelty of it.  

      Weaknesses: 

      - The authors have not generated histologically identifiable cartilage or bone in their transplants of the cells with a type I scaffold. 

      The chondrogenic differentiation of our MSOD-B line and their capacity of undergoing endochondral ossification has been robustly demonstrated in previous studies (Pigeot et al., Advanced Materials 2021 and Grigoryan et al., Science Translational Medicine 2022). In the present manuscript, we thus compare the chondrogenic capacity of newly established VEGF-KO and RUNX-KO lines to those of MSOD-B. We demonstrate by qualitative (Safranin-O staining, Collagen type 2 and Collagen type X immuno-stainings) and quantitative (glycosaminoglycans assay) assays that the generated tissues consist in cartilage tissue of similar quality than the MSOD-B. Of note, the safranin-O stainings were performed on lyophilized tissues, which can alter the staining quality/intensity. We now provide here additional stainings of generated tissues pre-lyophilization. This is implemented in Figure 1D and Figure 3D.

      On the contested formation of bone in vivo by our ECMs grafts, we have provided compelling qualitative evidence via Masson´s Trichrome stainings and quantification of mineralized volume by µCT. Both cortical bone and trabecular structures were identified ectopically. Those are standard evaluation methods in the field, we would be happy to receive additional suggestions by the Reviewer. 

      - In many cases, they did not generate histologically identifiable cartilage with their cell-free-edited scaffold. They did generate small amounts of bone but this is most likely due to BMPs that were synthesized by the cells and trapped in the matrix. 

      We now appreciate that the Reviewer agrees on the successful formation of bone induced by our engineered grafts. We however still respectfully disagree with the “small amount of bone” statement since our MSOD-B and MSOD-B VEGF KO cartilage grafts led to the full generation of a mature ectopic bone organ (that is, also composed of extensive marrow). This has been assessed qualitatively and quantitatively. 

      We agree with the Reviewer on the key role of BMP-2 in the remodeling process into bone and bone marrow, which we have extensively described in our previous publication (Pigeot et al., Advanced Materials 2021). However, the low amount of BMP-2 (in the dozens of nanogram/tissue range) embedded in the matrix is not sufficient per se to induce ectopic endochondral ossification. It is the combined presence of GAGs in the matrix -thus cartilage- that allows the success of bone formation.  

      - There is a great deal of missing detail in the manuscript. 

      We have incorporated additional methodological details describing the lyophilization/decellularization process of our tissues prior to evaluation (see Material and Methods section). We also have included a description of the MSOD-B line and implemented genetic elements (Supplementary Figure 1A).  

      - The in vivo study is underpowered, the results are not well documented pictorially, and are not convincing. 

      We believe our group size supports our conclusions confirmed by statistical assessment. We have provided additional stainings and images of higher magnifications (Figure 5) for both the ectopic and orthotopic in vivo evaluation.  

      - Given the fact that they have genetically modified cells, they could have done analyses of ECM components to determine what was different between the lines, both at the transcriptome and the protein level. Consequently, the study is purely descriptive and does not provide any mechanistic understanding of what mixture of matrix components and growth factors works best for cartilage or bone. But this presupposes that they actually induced the formation of bona fide cartilage, at least. 

      We thank the Reviewer for the suggestion. However, our study did not aim at understanding what ECM graft composition work best for cartilage nor bone regeneration respectively. Instead, we propose the exploitation of our cellular tools to interrogate the function of key ECM constituents and their impact in skeletal regeneration. We once more confirm that we generated cartilage grafts which is now better supported by additional histological assessment before lyophilization.

    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In a previous work, Prut and colleagues had shown that during reaching, high-frequency stimulation of the cerebellar outputs resulted in reduced reach velocity. Moreover, they showed that the stimulation produced reaches that deviated from a straight line, with the shoulder and elbow movements becoming less coordinated. In this report, they extend their previous work by the addition of modeling results that investigate the relationship between the kinematic changes and torques produced at the joints. The results show that the slowing is not due to reductions in interaction torques alone, as the reductions in velocity occur even for movements that are single joints. More interestingly, the experiment revealed evidence for the decomposition of the reaching movement, as well as an increase in the variance of the trajectory.

      Strengths:

      This is a rare experiment in a non-human primate that assessed the importance of cerebellar input to the motor cortex during reaching.

      Weaknesses:

      My major concerns are described below.

      If I understand the task design correctly, the monkeys did not need to stop their hand at the target. I think this design may be suboptimal for investigating the role of the cerebellum in control of reaching because a number of earlier works have found that the cerebellum's contributions are particularly significant as the movement ends, i.e., stopping at the target. For example, in mice, interposed nucleus neurons tend to be most active near the end of the reach that requires extension, and their activation produces flexion forces during the reach (Becker and Person 2019). Indeed, the inactivation of interposed neurons that project to the thalamus results in overshooting of reaching movements (Low et al. 2018). Recent work has also found that many Purkinje cells show a burst-pause pattern as the reach nears its endpoint, and stimulation of the mossy fibers tends to disrupt endpoint control (Calame et al. 2023). Thus, the fact that the current paper has no data regarding endpoint control of the reach is puzzling to me.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s point that cerebellar contributions can be particularly critical near the endpoint of a reach. In our current task design, monkeys were indeed required to hold at the target briefly—100 ms for Monkeys S and P, and 150 ms for Monkeys C and M—before receiving a reward. However, given the size of the targets and the velocity of movements, it often happened that the monkey didn’t have to stop its movement to obtain a reward. Importantly, we relaxed the task’s requirements (by increasing target size and reducing temporal constraints) to allow monkeys to perform the task under cerebellar block conditions as we found that the strict criteria in these conditions yield a low success rate. This design is suboptimal for studying endpoint accuracy which, as we now appreciate, is an important aspect of cerebellar control. In our revision, we will clarify these aspects of the task design and acknowledge that it is sub-optimal for examining the role of cerebellum in end-point control. Future studies will explicitly address this point more carefully.

      Because stimulation continued after the cursor had crossed the target, it is interesting to ask whether this disruption had any effects on the movements that were task-irrelevant. The reason for asking this is because we have found that whereas during task-relevant eye or tongue movements the Purkinje cells are strongly modulated, the modulations are much more muted when similar movements are performed but are task-irrelevant (Pi et al., PNAS 2024; Hage et al. Biorxiv 2024). Thus, it is interesting to ask whether the effects of stimulation were global and affected all movements, or were the effects primarily concerned with the task-relevant movements.

      This is a very interesting suggestion. Although our main analysis focused on target-directed reaching movements, we have the data for the between-trial movements under continuous stimulation (e.g., return to center movements). In our revised supplementary material, we will examine the effect of cerebellar block on endpoint velocities in inter-trial movements versus task-related movements.

      If the schematic in Figure 1 is accurate, it is difficult for me to see how any of the reaching movements can be termed single joint. In the paper, T1 is labeled as a single joint, and T2-T4 are labeled as dual-joint. The authors should provide data to justify this.

      The is reviewer right and movements to all targets engages shoulder and elbow but the single joint participation varied in a target-specific manner. In the manuscript, we used the term “single-joint” to indicate a target direction in which one joint remains stationary, resulting in minimal coupling torque at the adjacent joint. Specifically, for Targets 1 and 5 in our experiments, the net torque (and thus acceleration) at the elbow was negligible, and hence the shoulder experienced correspondingly low coupling torque (as illustrated in Figure 3c of our manuscript). To avoid confusion, we will use the term ‘predominantly single-joint’ movements in our revised manuscript to indicate targets with low coupling torques. We will also include an additional figure in the revised supplementary material displaying the net torques at the shoulder and elbow, similar to Figures 2c and 3c. Our goal is to demonstrate that movements to targets 1 and 5 are characterized by predominantly one-joint engagement (i.e., the elbow is stationary with low net torque) and low coupling torques, rather than implying a purely isolated, single-joint motion.

      Because at least part of this work was previously analyzed and published, information should be provided regarding which data are new.

      We will include a clear statement in the Methods section specifying which components of the dataset and analyses are entirely new. While some of the same animals and stimulation protocol were presented in prior work, the inverse-dynamics modeling, analyses of progressive movement changes across trials under stimulation and invariance of motor noise to movement velocity are newly reported in this manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This manuscript asks an interesting and important question: what part of 'cerebellar' motor dysfunction is an acute control problem vs a compensatory strategy to the acute control issue? The authors use a cerebellar 'blockade' protocol, consisting of high-frequency stimuli applied to the cerebellar peduncle which is thought to interfere with outflow signals. This protocol was applied in monkeys performing center outreaching movements and has been published from this laboratory in several preceding studies. I found the take-home-message broadly convincing and clarifying - that cerebellar block reduces muscle activation acutely particularly in movements that involve multiple joints and therefore invoke interaction torques, and that movements progressively slow down to in effect 'compensate' for these acute tone deficits. The manuscript was generally well written, and the data was clear, convincing, and novel. My comments below highlight suggestions to improve clarity and sharpen some arguments.

      Primary comments:

      (1) Torque vs. tone: Is it known whether this type of cerebellar blockade is reducing muscle tone or inducing any type of acute co-contraction that could influence limb velocity through mechanisms different than 'atonia'? If so, the authors should discuss this information in the discussion section starting around line 336, and clarify that this motivates (if it does) the focus on 'torques' rather than muscle activation. Relatedly, besides the fact that there are joints involved, is there a reason there is so much emphasis on torque per se? If the muscle is deprived of sufficient drive, it would seem that it would be more straightforward to conceptualize the deficit as one of insufficient timed drive to a set of muscles than joint force. Some text better contextualizing the choices made here would be sufficient to address this concern. I found statements like those in the introduction "hand velocity was low initially, reflecting a primary muscle torque deficit" to be lacking in substance. Either that statement is self-evident or the alternative was not made clear. Finally, emphasize that it is a loss of self-generated torque at the shoulder that accounts for the velocity deficits. At times the phrasing makes it seem that there is a loss of some kind of passive torque.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s emphasis on distinguishing reduced muscle tone and altered co-contraction patterns as possible explanations for decreased limb velocity. Our focus on torques arises from previous studies suggesting that the core deficit in cerebellar ataxia is impaired prediction of coupling torques. This point will be added in the discussion section of our revised manuscript where we will explain why we prioritize muscle torques and how muscle-level activation collectively contributes to net joint torques. Also, we will underscore that the observed velocity deficits primarily reflect a reduction of self-generated torque at the shoulder (whether acute or adaptive), rather than any reduction in passive torques.

      (2) Please clarify some of the experimental metrics: Ln 94 RESULTS. The success rate is used as a primary behavioral readout, but what constitutes success is not clearly defined in the methods. In addition to providing a clear definition in the methods section, it would also be helpful for the authors to provide a brief list of criteria used to determine a 'successful' movement in the results section before the behavioral consequences of stimulation are described. In particular, the time and positional error requirements should be clear.

      Successful trials were trials in which monkeys didn’t leave the center position before the go signal and reached the peripheral target within a specific time criteria. These values varied in different monkeys. We will include detailed definitions of our success criteria in the revised methods section of our manuscript. Specifically, we will update our methods section to include (i) the timing criteria of each phase of the trials and (ii) the size of the peripheral targets indicating the tolerance for endpoint accuracy.

      (3) Based on the polar plot in Figure 1c, it seemed odd to consider Targets 1-4 outward and 5-8 inward movements, when 1 and 5 are side-to-side. Is there a rationale for this grouping or might results be cleaner by cleanly segregating outward (targets 2-4) and inward (targets 6-8) movements? Indeed, by Figure 3 where interaction torques are measured, this grouping would seem to align with the hypothesis much more cleanly since it is with T2,T3,and T4 where clear coupling torques deficits are seen with cerebellar block.

      We acknowledge the reviewer’s observation regarding Targets 1 and 5 being side-to-side rather than strictly “outward” or “inward.” In the first section of our results, we grouped the targets in this way to emphasize the notably stronger effect of the cerebellar block on targets involving shoulder flexion (‘outward’) as compared to those involving shoulder extension (‘inwards’). For subsequent analyses we focused on the effects of cerebellar block on outward targets where movements were single-joint (Target 1) vs. multi-joint (Targets 2-4). To clarify this aspect, in our revised manuscript we will explain the rationale for grouping T1–T4 as “outward” and T5–T8 as “inward,” including how we defined them.

      (4) I did not follow Figure 3d. Both the figure axis labels and the description in the main text were difficult to follow. Furthermore, the color code per animal made me question whether the linear regression across the entire dataset was valid, or would be better performed within animal, and the regressions summarized across animals. The authors should look again at this section and figure.

      We will revise the figure labels and legend to clarify how each axis is defined. Please note that pooling the data was done after confirming that data from each animal expressed a similar trend. Specifically, the correlation coefficients were all positive but statistically significant in 3 out of the 4 monkeys. Moreover, following the reviewers’ feedback, we also did a partial correlation analysis (which controls for the variability across monkeys) and found a significant correlation (r = 0.33, p < 0.001). These points will be described in the revised manuscript.

      (5) Line 206+ The rationale for examining movement decomposition with a cerebellar block is presented as testing the role of the cerebellum in timing. Yet it is not spelled out what movement decomposition and trajectory variability have to do with motor timing per se.

      The reviewer is right and the relations between timing, decomposition and variability need to be explicitly presented. In our revision, we will explain how decomposed movements may reflect impaired temporal coordination across multiple joints—a critical cerebellar function. We will also clarify how increased variability in joint coordination can result in increased trial-to-trial variability of trajectories.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In their manuscript, "Disentangling acute motor deficits and adaptive responses evoked by the loss of cerebellar output," Sinha and colleagues aim to identify distinct causes of motor impairments seen when perturbing cerebellar circuits. This goal is an important one, given the diversity of movement-related phenotypes in patients with cerebellar lesions or injuries, which are especially difficult to dissect given the chronic nature of the circuit damage. To address this goal, the authors use high-frequency stimulation (HFS) of the superior cerebellar peduncle in monkeys performing reaching movements. HFS provides an attractive approach for transiently disrupting cerebellar function previously published by this group. First, they found a reduction in hand velocities during reaching, which was more pronounced for outward versus inward movements. By modeling inverse dynamics, they find evidence that shoulder muscle torques are especially affected. Next, the authors examine the temporal evolution of movement phenotypes over successive blocks of HFS trials. Using this analysis, they find that in addition to the acute, specific effects on muscle torques in early HFS trials, there was an additional progressive reduction in velocity during later trials, which they interpret as an adaptive response to the inability to effectively compensate for interaction torques during cerebellar block. Finally, the authors examine movement decomposition and trajectory, finding that even when low-velocity reaches are matched to controls, HFS produces abnormally decomposed movements and higher than expected variability in trajectory.

      Strengths:

      Overall, this work provides important insight into how perturbation of cerebellar circuits can elicit diverse effects on movement across multiple timescales.

      The HFS approach provides temporal resolution and enables analysis that would be hard to perform in the context of chronic lesions or slow pharmacological interventions. Thus, this study describes an important advance over prior methods of circuit disruption, and their approach can be used as a framework for future studies that delve deeper into how additional aspects of sensorimotor control are disrupted (e.g., response to limb perturbations).

      In addition, the authors use well-designed behavioral approaches and analysis methods to distinguish immediate from longer-term adaptive effects of HFS on behavior. Moreover, inverse dynamics modeling provides important insight into how movements with different kinematics and muscle dynamics might be differentially disrupted by cerebellar perturbation.

      Weaknesses:

      The argument that there are acute and adaptive effects to perturbing cerebellar circuits is compelling, but there seems to be a lost opportunity to leverage the fast and reversible nature of the perturbations to further test this idea and strengthen the interpretation. Specifically, the authors could have bolstered this argument by looking at the effects of terminating HFS - one might hypothesize that the acute impacts on muscle torques would quickly return to baseline in the absence of HFS, whereas the longer-term adaptive component would persist in the form of aftereffects during the 'washout' period. As is, the reversible nature of the perturbation seems underutilized in testing the authors' ideas.

      We agree that our approach could more explicitly exploit the rapid reversibility of high-frequency stimulation (HFS) by examining post-stimulation ‘washout’ periods. However, for the present dataset, we ended the session after the set of cerebellar block trials. We plan to study the effect of cerebellar block on immediate post-block washout trials in the future.  

      The analysis showing that there is a gradual reduction in velocity during what the authors call an adaptive phase is convincing. That said, the argument is made that this is due to difficulty in compensating for interaction torques. Even if the inward targets (i.e., targets 6-8) do not show a deficit during the acute phase, these targets still have significant interaction torques (Figure 3c). Given the interpretation of the data as presented, it is not clear why disruption of movement during the adaptive phase would not be seen for these targets as well since they also have large interaction torques. Moreover, it is difficult to delve into this issue in more detail, as the analyses in Figures 4 and 5 omit the inward targets.

      The reviewer is right and movements to Targets 6–8 (inward) were seemingly unaffected despite also involving significant interaction torques. In fact, we have already attempted to address this issue in the discussion section of the version 1 of our manuscript. Specifically, we note that while outward targets (2–4) tend to involve higher coupling torque impulses on average, this alone does not fully explain the differential impact of cerebellar block, as illustrated by discrepancies at the individual target level (e.g., target 7 vs. target 1). We proposed two possible explanations: (1) a bias toward shoulder flexion in the effect of cerebellar block—consistent with earlier studies showing ipsilateral flexor activation or tone changes following stimulation or lesioning of the deep cerebellar nuclei; and (2) a posture-related facilitation of inward (shoulder extension) movements from the central starting position.

      The text in the Introduction and in the prior work developing the HFS approach overstates the selectivity of the perturbations. First, there is an emphasis on signals transmitted to the neocortex. As the authors state several times in the Discussion, there are many subcortical targets of the cerebellar nuclei as well, and thus it is difficult to disentangle target-specific behavioral effects using this approach. Second, the superior cerebellar peduncle contains both cerebellar outputs and inputs (e.g., spinocerebellar). Therefore, the selectivity in perturbing cerebellar output feels overstated. Readers would benefit from a more agnostic claim that HFS affects cerebellar communication with the rest of the nervous system, which would not affect the major findings of the study.

      The reviewer is right that the superior cerebellar peduncle carries both descending and ascending fibers, and that cerebellar nuclei project to subcortical as well as cortical targets. However, it is also important to note that in primates the cerebellar-thalamo-cortical (CTC) pathway greatly expanded (on the expanse of the cerbello-rubro-spinal tract) in mediating cerebellar control of voluntary movements (Horne and Butler, 1995). The cerebello-subcortical pathways lost its importance over the course of evolution (Nathan and Smith, 1982, Padel et al., 1981, ten Donkelaar, 1988). In our previous study we found that the ascending spinocerebellar axons which enter the cerebellum through the SCP are weakly task-related and the descending system is quite small (Cohen et al, 2017). However, we cannot rule out an effect of HFS mediated in part through other systems. In the revised introduction section, we will clarify this point and use more careful language about the scope of our stimulation, emphasizing that HFS disrupts cerebellar communication broadly, rather than solely the cerebello-thalamo-cortical pathway.

      The text implies that increased movement decomposition and variability must be due to noise. However, this assumption is not tested. It is possible that the impairments observed are caused by disrupted commands, independent of whether these command signals are noisy. In other words, commands could be low noise but still faulty.

      We recognize the reviewer’s concern about linking movement decomposition and trial-to-trial trajectory variability with motor noise. As presented in our discussion section, we interpret these motor abnormalities as a form of motor noise in the sense that they are generated by faulty motor commands. We draw our interpretation from the findings of previous research work which show that the cerebellum aids in the state estimation of the limb and subsequent generation of accurate feedforward commands. Therefore, disruption of the cerebellar output may lead to faulty motor commands resulting in the observed asynchronous joint activations (i.e., movement decomposition) and unpredictable trajectories (i.e., increased trial-to-trial variability). Both observed deficits resemble increased motor noise.

      Throughout the text, the use of the term 'feedforward control' seems unnecessary. To dig into the feedforward component of the deficit, the authors could quantify the trajectory errors only at the earliest time points (e.g., in Figure 5d), but even with this analysis, it is difficult to disentangle feedforward- and feedback-mediated effects when deficits are seen throughout the reach. While outside the scope of this study, it would be interesting to explore how feedback responses to limb perturbation are affected in control versus HFS conditions. However, as is, these questions are not explored, and the claim of impaired feedforward control feels overstated.

      We agree that to strictly focus on feedforward control, we could have examined the measured variables in the first 50-100 ms of the movement which has been shown to be unaffected by feedback responses (Pruszynski et al. 2008, Todorov and Jordan 2002, Pruszynski and Scott 2012, Crevecoeur et al. 2013). However, in our task the amplitude of movements made by our monkeys was small and therefore the response measures we used were too small in the first 50-100 ms for a robust estimation. Also, fixing a time window led to an unfair comparison between control and cerebellar block trials, in which velocity was significantly reduced and therefore movement time was longer. Therefore, we used the peak velocity, torque-impulse at the peak velocity and maximum deviation of the hand trajectory as response measures. We will acknowledge this point in the discussion section of our revised manuscript. We will also tone down references to feedforward control throughout the text of our revised manuscript as suggested by the reviewer.

      The terminology 'single-joint' movement is a bit confusing. At a minimum, it would be nice to show kinematics during different target reaches to demonstrate that certain targets are indeed single joint movements. More of an issue, however, is that it seems like these are not actually 'single-joint' movements. For example, Figure 2c shows that target 1 exhibits high elbow and shoulder torques, but in the text, T1 is described as a 'single-joint' reach (e.g. lines 155-156). The point that I think the authors are making is that these targets have low interaction torques. If that is the case, the terminology should be changed or clarified to avoid confusion.

      Indeed, as reviewer #1 also noted, movements to target 1 and 5 are not purely single-joint but rather have relatively low coupling torques. Our intention while using the term “single-joint” was to indicate a target direction in which one joint remains stationary, resulting in minimal coupling torque at the adjacent joint. Specifically, for Targets 1 and 5 in our experiments, the net torque (and thus acceleration) at the elbow was negligible, and hence the shoulder experienced correspondingly low coupling torque (as illustrated in Figure 3c of our manuscript). ). To avoid confusion, we will use the term ‘predominantly single-joint’ movements in our revised manuscript to indicate targets with low coupling torques. We will also include an additional figure in the revised supplementary material displaying the net torques at the shoulder and elbow, similar to Figures 2c and 3c. Our goal is to demonstrate that movements to targets 1 and 5 are characterized by predominantly one-joint engagement (i.e., the elbow is stationary with low net torque) and low coupling torques, rather than implying a purely isolated, single-joint motion.

      The labels in Figure 3d are confusing and could use more explanation in the figure legend.

      In Figure 3d, it is stated that data from all monkeys is pooled. However, if there is a systematic bias between animals, this could generate spurious correlations. Were correlations also calculated for each animal separately to confirm the same trend between velocity and coupling torques holds for each animal?

      We will revise the figure legend and main-text explanation for Figure 3d. Please note that pooling the data was done after confirming that data from each animal expressed a similar trend. Specifically, the correlation coefficients were positive but significant for 3 out of the 4 monkeys. Moreover, following the reviewers’ feedback, we also did a partial correlation analysis (which controls for the variability across monkeys) and found a significant correlation (r = 0.33, p < 0.001). These points will be described in the revised manuscript.

      In Table S1, it would be nice to see target-specific success rates. The data would suggest that targets with the highest interaction torques will have the largest reduction in success rates, especially during later HFS trials. Is this the case?

      We will provide a breakdown of the success rates as a function of targets. However, one should note that success/failure may depend on several factors beyond impaired limb dynamics. In a previous study (Nashef et al. 2019) we identified several causes of failure such as (i) not entering the central target in time, (ii) moving out too early from the peripheral target, (iii) Reaction time longer than permitted, or (iv) premature exit from the central target before permitted.

    1. Author response:

      We thank all reviewers for the highly detailed review and the time and effort which has been invested in this review. We have read their perspectives, questions and suggested improvements with great interest. We have reflected on the public review in detail and have made the first provisional responses which are outlined below. First, we would like to respond to four main issues pointed out by the editor and reviewers:

      (1) Lack of yield data in the manuscript: There have been yield data collected in most of the sites and years of our study, and these have already been published and cited in our manuscript. In the appendix of our manuscript, we included a table with yield data for the sites and years in which the beetle diversity was studied. These data show that strip cropping does not cause a systematic yield reduction.

      (2) Sampling design clarification: Our paper combines data from trials conducted at different locations and years. On the one hand this allows an analysis of a comprehensive dataset, but on the other hand in some cases there were slight inconsistencies in how data were collected or processed (e.g. taxonomic level of species identification). We will explain the sampling design and data analysis in more detail to increase clarity and transparency.

      (3) Additional data analysis: In the revised manuscript we will present an analysis on the responses of abundances of the 12 most common ground beetle genera to strip cropping. This will give better insight of the variation in responses among ground beetle taxa.

      (4) Restrict findings to our system: We will nuance our findings further and will focus more strongly on the implications of our data on ground beetle communities, rather than on agrobiodiversity in a broader sense.

      We will further work on improving the manuscript based on reviewers feedback in the coming weeks, aiming to submit a revised version of the manuscript at the end of February.

      Detailed response to editor and reviewers:

      Editor Comments:

      (1) You only have analyzed ground beetle diversity, it would be important to add data on crop yields, which certainly must be available (note that in normal intercropping these would likely be enhanced as well).

      Most yield data have been published in three previous papers, which we already cited or will cite (one was not yet published at the time of submission). Our argumentation is based on these studies. We had also already included a table in the appendix that showed the yield data that relates specifically to our locations and years of measurement. The finding that strip cropping does not majorly affect yield is based on these findings. We will consider changing the title of our manuscript to remove the explicit focus on yield.

      (2) Considering the heterogeneous data involving different experiments it is particularly important to describe the sampling design in detail and explain how various hierarchical levels were accounted for in the analysis.

      We agree that some important details to our analysis were not described in sufficient detail. Especially reviewer 2 pointed out several relevant points that we did account for in our analyses, but which were not clear from the text in the methods section. We are convinced that our data analyses are robust and that our conclusions are supported by the data. We will revise the methods section to make our approach clearer and more transparent.

      (3) In addition to relative changes in richness and density of ground beetles you should also present the data from which these have been derived. Furthermore, you could also analyze and interpret the response of the different individual taxa to strip cropping.

      With our heterogeneous dataset it was quite complicated to show overall patterns of absolute changes in ground beetle abundance and richness, especially for the field-level analyses. As the sampling design was not always the same and occasionally samples were missing, the number of year series that made up a datapoint were different among locations and years. However, we always made sure that for the comparison of a paired monoculture and strip cropping field, the number of year series was always made equal through rarefaction. That is, the number of ground beetle(s) (species) are always expressed as the number per 2 to 6 samples. Therefore, we prefer to stick to relative changes as we are convinced that this gives a fairer representation of our complex dataset.

      We agree with the second point that both the editor and several reviewers pointed out. The indicator species analyses that we used were biased by rare species, and we now omit this analysis. Instead, we will include a GLM analysis on the responses of abundances of the 12 most common ground beetle genera to strip cropping. We chose for genera here (and not species) as we could then include all locations and years within the analysis, and in most cases a genus was dominated by a single species (but notable exceptions were Amara and Harpalus, which were made up of several species). We will illustrate these findings still in a similar fashion as we did for the indicator species analysis.

      (4) Keep to your findings and don't overstate them but try to better connect them to basic ecological hypotheses potentially explaining them.

      After careful consideration of the important points that reviewers point out, we decided to nuance our points about biodiversity conservation along two key lines: (1) the extent to which ground beetles can be indicators of wider biodiversity changes; and (2) our findings that are not as straightforward positive as our narrative suggests. We still believe that strip cropping contributes positively to carabid communities, and will carefully check the text to avoid overstatements.

      Reviewer 1:

      Summary:

      This study demonstrates that strip cropping enhances the taxonomic diversity of ground beetles across organically-managed crop systems in the Netherlands. In particular, strip cropping supported 15% more ground beetle species and 30% more individuals compared to monocultures.

      Strengths:

      A well-written study with well-analyzed data of a complex design. The data could have been analyzed differently e.g. by not pooling samples, but there are pros and cons for each type of analysis and I am convinced this will not affect the main findings. A strong point is that data were collected for 4 years. This is especially strong as most data on biodiversity in cropping systems are only collected for one or two seasons. Another strong point is that several crops were included.

      We thank reviewer 1 for their kind words and agree with this strength of the paper. The paper combines data from trials conducted at different locations and years. On the one hand this allows an analysis of a comprehensive dataset, but on the other hand in some cases there were slight inconsistencies in how data were collected or processed (e.g. taxonomic level of species identification).  

      Weaknesses:

      This study focused on the biodiversity of ground beetles and did not examine crop productivity. Therefore, I disagree with the claim that this study demonstrates biodiversity enhancement without compromising yield. The authors should present results on yield or, at the very least, provide a stronger justification for this statement.

      We acknowledge that we indeed did not formally analyze yield in our study, but we have good reason for this. The claim that strip cropping does not compromise yield comes from several extensive studies (Juventia et al., 2024; Ditzler et al., 2023; Carillo-Reche et al., 2023) that were conducted in nearly all the sites and years that we included in our study. We chose not to include formal analyses of productivity for two key reasons: (1) a yield analysis would duplicate already published analyses, and (2) we prefer to focus more on the ecology of ground beetles and the effect of strip cropping on biodiversity, rather than diverging our focus also towards crop productivity. Nevertheless, we have shown the results on yield in Table S6 and refer extensively to the studies that have previously analyzed this data.

      Reviewer 2:

      Summary:

      The authors aimed to investigate the effects of organic strip cropping on carabid richness and density as well as on crop yields. They find on average higher carabid richness and density in strip cropping and organic farming, but not in all cases.

      Strengths:

      Based on highly resolved species-level carabid data, the authors present estimates for many different crop types, some of them rarely studied, at the same time. The authors did a great job investigating different aspects of the assemblages (although some questions remain concerning the analyses) and they present their results in a visually pleasing and intuitive way.

      We appreciate the kind words of reviewer 2 and their acknowledgement of the extensiveness of our dataset. In our opinion, the inclusion of many different crops is indeed a strength, rarely seen in similar studies; and we are happy that the figures are appreciated.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors used data from four different strip cropping experiments and there is no real replication in space as all of these differed in many aspects (different crops, different areas between years, different combinations, design of the strip cropping (orientation and width), sampling effort and sample sizes of beetles (differing more than 35 fold between sites; L 100f); for more differences see L 237ff). The reader gets the impression that the authors stitched data from various places together that were not made to fit together. This may not be a problem per se but it surely limits the strength of the data as results for various crops may only be based on small samples from one or two sites (it is generally unclear how many samples were used for each crop/crop combination).

      The paper indeed combines data from trials conducted at different locations and years. On the one hand this allows an analysis of a comprehensive dataset, but on the other hand in some cases there were slight differences in the experimental design. At the time that we did our research, there were only a handful of farmers that were employing strip cropping within the Netherlands, which greatly reduced the number of fields for our study. Therefore, we worked in the sites that were available and studied as many crops on these sites. Since there was variation in the crops grown in the sites, for some crops we have limited replication. In the revision we will explain this more clearly.

      One of my major concerns is that it is completely unclear where carabids were collected. As some strips were 3m wide, some others were 6m and the monoculture plots large, it can be expected that carabids were collected at different distances from the plot edge. This alone, however, was conclusively shown to affect carabid assemblages dramatically and could easily outweigh the differences shown here if not accounted for in the models (see e.g. Boetzl et al. (2024) or Knapp et al. (2019) among many other studies on within field-distributions of carabids).

      Point well taken and we will present a more detailed description of the sampling design in the methods. Samples were always taken at least 10 meters into the field, and always in the middle of the strip. This would indeed mean that there is a small difference between the 3- and 6m wide strips regarding distance from another strip, but this was then only a difference of 1.5 to 3 meters from the edge. A difference that, based on our own extensive experience with ground beetle communities, will not have a large impact on the findings of ground beetles. The distance from field/plot edges was similar between monocultures and strip cropped fields.

      The authors hint at a related but somewhat different problem in L 137ff - carabid assemblages sampled in strips were sampled in closer proximity to each other than assemblages in monoculture fields which is very likely a problem. The authors did not check whether their results are spatially autocorrelated and this shortcoming is hard to account for as it would have required a much bigger, spatially replicated design in which distances are maintained from the beginning. This limitation needs to be stated more clearly in the manuscript.

      This is a limitation that is hard to avoid in comparisons between strip cropping and monoculture systems because the use of a statistically robust design with sufficient replication and still using field sizes that are representative for farming practice are often not possible. We will acknowledge this limitation in the revised manuscript. To allow a fair comparison based on sufficient number of replications, we chose to combine data from several years and locations (despite this not being the ideal experimental design). This approach has the drawback that ground beetle communities are difficult to compare. Therefore, we chose to further investigate two years of data from Wageningen as the factorial design allowed a fair comparison between monocultures and strip cropping. We analyzed three crop combinations during two years, but we still cannot exclude a potential influence of spatial autocorrelation. We acknowledged this limitation in our original submission, and we will clarify this point further in the revision. 

      Similarly, we know that carabid richness and density depend strongly on crop type (see e.g. Toivonen et al. (2022)) which could have biased results if the design is not balanced (this information is missing but it seems to be the case, see e.g. Celeriac in Almere in 2022).

      The samples size ranges between 2 and 6 per combination of cropping design, crop, location and year. We believe that this will allow a meaningful analysis. Moreover, our main focus is the comparison between monoculture and strip cropping, and not the comparison between different crops. Even though we show that crop types have different ground beetle communities, we are most interested in the contrast of ground beetle communities in strip cropping and monoculture systems.  

      A more basic problem is that the reader neither learns where traps were located, how missing traps were treated for analyses how many samples there were per crop or crop combination (in a simple way, not through Table S7 - there has to have been a logic in each of these field trials) or why there are differences in the number of samples from the same location and year (see Table S7). This information needs to be added to the methods section.

      Point well taken. We will clarify this further in the revised manuscript. As we combined data from several experimental designs that originally had slightly different research questions, this in part caused differences between numbers of rounds or samples per crop, location or year.

      As carabid assemblages undergo rapid phenological changes across the year, assemblages that are collected at different phenological points within and across years cannot easily be compared. The authors would need to standardize for this and make sure that the assemblages they analyze are comparable prior to analyses. Otherwise, I see the possibility that the reported differences might simply be biased by phenology.

      We agree and we dealt with this issue by using year series instead of using individual samples of different rounds. While this approach is not perfect, it allows us to get the best possible impression of the entire ground beetle community across seasons. For our analyses we had the choice to only include data from sampling rounds that were conducted at the same time, or to include all available data. We chose to analyze all data, and made sure that the number of samples between strip cropping and monoculture fields per location, year and crop was always the same by pooling and rarefaction. In this way we have analyzed a complex multi-year, multi-crop and multi-location dataset as good as we could.

      Surrounding landscape structure is known to affect carabid richness and density and could thus also bias observed differences between treatments at the same locations (lower overall richness => lower differences between treatments). Landscape structure has not been taken into account in any way.

      We did not include landscape structure as there are only 4 sites, which does not allow a meaningful analysis of potential effects landscape structure. Studying how landscape interacts with strip cropping to influence insect biodiversity would require at least, say 15 to 20 sites, which was not feasible for this study. However, such an analysis may be possible in an ongoing project (CropMix) which includes many farms that work with strip cropping.

      In the statistical analyses, it is unclear whether the authors used estimated marginal means (as they should) - this needs to be clarified.

      In the revised manuscript we will further clarify this point.

      In addition, and as mentioned by Dr. Rasmann in the previous round (comment 1), the manuscript, in its current form, still suffers from simplified generalizations that 'oversell' the impact of the study and should be avoided. The authors restricted their analyses to ground beetles and based their conclusions on a design with many 'heterogeneities' - they should not draw conclusions for farmland biodiversity but stick to their system and report what they found. Although I understand the authors have previously stated that this is 'not practically feasible', the reason for this comment is simply to say that the authors should not oversell their findings.

      In the revised manuscript, we will nuance our findings by explaining that strip cropping is a potentially useful tool to support ground beetle biodiversity in agricultural fields, but the effects on other taxa still needs to be further explored.

      Reviewer 3:

      Summary:

      In this paper, the authors made a sincere effort to show the effects of strip cropping, a technique of alternating crops in small strips of several meters wide, on ground beetle diversity. They state that strip cropping can be a useful tool for bending the curve of biodiversity loss in agricultural systems as strip cropping shows a relative increase in species diversity (i.e. abundance and species richness) of the ground beetle communities compared to monocultures. Moreover, strip cropping has the added advantage of not having to compromise on agricultural yields.

      Strengths:

      The article is well written; it has an easily readable tone of voice without too much jargon or overly complicated sentence structure. Moreover, as far as reviewing the models in depth without raw data and R scripts allows, the statistical work done by the authors looks good. They have well thought out how to handle heterogenous, yet spatially and temporarily correlated field data. The models applied and the model checks performed are appropriate for the data at hand. Combining RDA and PCA axes together is a nice touch.

      We thank reviewer 3 for their kind words and appreciation for the simple language and analysis that we used.

      Weaknesses:

      The evidence for strip cropping bringing added value for biodiversity is mixed at best. Yes, there is an increase in relative abundance and species richness at the field level, but it is not convincingly shown this difference is robust or can be linked to clear structural and hypothesised advantages of the strip cropping system. The same results could have been used to conclude that there are only very limited signs of real added value of strip cropping compared to monocultures.

      Point well taken. We agree that the effect of strip cropping on carabid beetle communities are subtle and we will nuance the text in the revised version to reflect this.

      There are a number of reasons for this:

      (1) Significant differences disappear at crop level, as the authors themselves clearly acknowledge, meaning that there are no differences between pairs of similar crops in the strip cropping fields and their respective monoculture. This would mean the strips effectively function as "mini-monocultures".

      This is indeed in line with our conclusions. Based on our data and results, the advantages of strip cropping seem mostly to occur because crops with different communities are now on a same field, rather than that within the strips you get mixtures of communities related to different crops. We discussed this in the first paragraph of the discussion in the original submission.

      The significant relative differences at the field level could be an artifact of aggregation instead of structural differences between strip cropping and monocultures; with enough data points things tend to get significant despite large variance. This should have been elaborated further upon by the authors with additional analyses, designed to find out where differences originate and what it tells about the functioning of the system. Or it should have provided ample reason for cautioning in drawing conclusions about the supposed effectiveness of strip cropping based on these findings.

      We believe that this is a misunderstanding of our approach. In the field-level analyses we pooled samples from the same field (i.e. pseudo-replicates were pooled), resulting in a relatively small sample size of 50 samples. We will explain this better in the methods section. Therefore, the statement “with enough data points things tend to get significant” is not applicable here.

      (2) The authors report percentages calculated as relative change of species richness and abundance in strip cropping compared to monocultures after rarefaction. This is in itself correct, however, it can be rather tricky to interpret because the perspective on actual species richness and abundance in the fields and treatments is completely lost; the reported percentages are dimensionless. The authors could have provided the average cumulative number of species and abundance after rarefaction. Also, range and/or standard error would have been useful to provide information as to the scale of differences between treatments. This could provide a new perspective on the magnitude of differences between the two treatments which a dimensionless percentage cannot.

      We agree that this would be the preferred approach if we would have had a perfectly balanced dataset. However, this approach is not feasible with our unbalanced design and differences in sampling effort. While we acknowledge the limitation of the interpretation of percentages, it does allow reporting relative changes for each combination of location, year and crop. The number of samples on which the percentages were based were always kept equal (through rarefaction) between the cropping systems (for each combination of location, year and crop), but not among crops, years and location. The reason for this is that we did not always have an equal number of samples available between both cropping systems, and this approach allowed us to make a better estimation whenever more samples were available. For example, sometimes we had 2 samples from a strip cropped field and 6 from the monoculture, here we would use rarefaction up to 2 samples (where we would just have a better estimation from the monoculture). In other cases, we had 4 samples in both strip cropped and monoculture field, here we chose to use rarefaction to 4 samples to get a better estimation altogether. Adding a value for actual richness or abundance to the figures would have distorted these findings, as the variation would be huge (as it would represent the number of ground beetle(s) species per 2 to 6 pitfall samples). Furthermore, the dimension that reviewer 3 describes would thus be “The number of ground beetle species / individuals per 2 to 6 samples”, not a very informative unit either. We chose to trade-off better estimations of difference between cropping systems over a more readily interpretable unit.

      (3) The authors appear to not have modelled the abundance of any of the dominant ground beetle species themselves. Therefore it becomes impossible to assess which important species are responsible (if any) for the differences found in activity density between strip cropping and monocultures and the possible life history traits related reasons for the differences, or lack thereof, that are found. A big advantage of using ground beetles is that many life history traits are well studied and these should be used whenever there is reason, as there clearly is in this case. Moreover, it is unclear which species are responsible for the difference in species richness found at the field level. Are these dominant species or singletons? Do the strip cropping fields contain species that are absent in the monoculture fields and are not the cause of random variation or sampling? Unfortunately, the authors do not report on any of these details of the communities that were found, which makes the results much less robust.

      Thank you for raising this point. We have reconsidered our indicator species analysis and found that it is rather sensitive for rare species and insensitive for changes in common species. Therefore, we will replace the indicator species analyses with a GLM analysis for the 12 most common genera of ground beetles In the revised manuscript. This will allow us to go more in depth on specific traits of the genera which abundances change depending on the cropping system. In the revised manuscript, we will also discuss these common genera more in depth, rather than focusing on rarer species. Furthermore, we will add information on rarity and habitat preference to the table that shows species abundances per location (Table S2).

      (4) In the discussion they conclude that there is only a limited amount of interstrip movement by ground beetles. Otherwise, the results of the crop-level statistical tests would have shown significant deviation from corresponding monocultures. This is a clear indication that the strips function more like mini-monocultures instead of being more than the sum of its parts.

      This is in line with our point in the first paragraph of the discussion and an important message of our manuscript.

      (5) The RDA results show a modelled variable of differences in community composition between strip cropping and monoculture. Percentages of explained variation of the first RDA axis are extremely low, and even then, the effect of location and/or year appear to peak through (Figure S3), even though these are not part of the modelling. Moreover, there is no indication of clustering of strip cropping on the RDA axis, or in fact on the first principal component axis in the larger RDA models. This means the explanatory power of different treatments is also extremely low. The crop level RDA's show some clustering, but hardly any consistent pattern in either communities of crops or species correlations, indicating that differences between strip cropping and monocultures are very small.

      We agree and we make a similar point in the first paragraph of the discussion.

      Furthermore, there are a number of additional weaknesses in the paper that should be addressed:

      The introduction lacks focus on the issues at hand. Too much space is taken up by facts on insect decline and land sharing vs. land sparing and not enough attention is spent on the scientific discussion underlying the statements made about crop diversification as a restoration strategy. They are simply stated as facts or as hypotheses with many references that are not mentioned or linked to in the text. An explicit link to the results found in the large number of references should be provided.

      We will streamline the introduction by omitting the land sharing vs. land sparing topic and better linking references to our research findings.

      The mechanistic understanding of strip cropping is what is at stake here. Does strip cropping behave similarly to intercropping, a technique that has been proven to be beneficial to biodiversity because of added effects due to increased resource efficiency and greater plant species richness? This should be the main testing point and agenda of strip cropping. Do the biodiversity benefits that have been shown for intercropping also work in strip cropping fields? The ground beetles are one way to test this. Hypotheses should originate from this and should be stated clearly and mechanistically.

      We agree with the reviewer and will clarify this research direction clearer in the introduction of the revised manuscript.

      One could question how useful indicator species analysis (ISA) is for a study in which predominantly highly eurytopic species are found. These are by definition uncritical of their habitat. Is there any mechanistic hypothesis underlying a suspected difference to be found in preferences for either strip cropping or monocultures of the species that were expected to be caught? In other words, did the authors have any a priori reasons to suspect differences, or has this been an exploratory exercise from which unexplained significant results should be used with great caution?

      Point well taken. We agree that the indicator species analysis has limitations and therefore now replaced this with GLM analysis for the 12 most common ground beetle genera.

      However, setting these objections aside there are in fact significant results with strong species associations both with monocultures and strip cropping. Unfortunately, the authors do not dig deeper into the patterns found a posteriori either. Why would some species associate so strongly with strip cropping? Do these species show a pattern of pitfall catches that deviate from other species, in that they are found in a wide range of strips with different crops in one strip cropping field and therefore may benefit from an increased abundance of food or shelter? Also, why would so many species associate with monocultures? Is this in any way logical? Could it be an artifact of the data instead of a meaningful pattern? Unfortunately, the authors do not progress along these lines in the methods and discussion at all.

      We thank reviewer 3 for these valuable perspectives. In the revised manuscript, we will further explore the species/genera that respond to cropping systems and discuss these findings in more detail.

      A second question raised in the introduction is whether the arable fields that form part of this study contain rare species. Unfortunately, the authors do not elaborate further on this. Do they expect rare species to be more prevalent in the strip cropping fields? Why? Has it been shown elsewhere that intercropping provides room for additional rare species?

      The answer is simply no, we did not find more rare species in strip cropping. In the revised manuscript, we will add a column for rarity (according to waarneming.nl) in the table showing abundances of species per location. We only found two rare species, one of which we only found a single individual and one that was more related to the open habitat created by a failed wheat field. We will discuss this more in depth in the discussion.

      Considering the implications the results of this research can have on the wider discussion of bending the curve and the effects of agroecological measures, bold claims should be made with extreme restraint and be based on extensive proof and robust findings. I am not convinced by the evidence provided in this article that the claim made by the authors that strip cropping is a useful tool for bending the curve of biodiversity loss is warranted.

      We believe that strip cropping can be a useful tool because farmers readily adopt it and it can result in modest biodiversity gains without yield loss. However, strip cropping is indeed not a silver bullet (which we also don’t claim). We will nuance the implications of our study in the revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Goal: Find downstream targets of cmk-1 phosphorylation, identify one that also seems to act in thermosensory habituation, test for genetic interactions between cmk-1 and this gene, and assess where these genes are acting in the thermosensory circuit during thermosensory habituation.

      Methods: Two in vitro analyses of cmk-1 phosphorylation of C. elegans proteins. Thermosensory habituation of cmk-1 and tax-6 mutants and double mutants was assessed by measuring the rate of heat-evoked reversals (reversal probability) of C. elegans before and after 20s ISI repeated heat pulses over 60 minutes.

      Conclusions: cmk-1 and tax-6 act in separate habituation processes, primarily in AFD, that interact complexly, but both serve to habituate the thermosensory reversal response. They found that cmk-1 primarily acts in AFD and tax-6 primarily acts in RIM (and FLP for naïve responses). They also identified hundreds of potential cmk-1 phosphorylation substrates in vitro.

      Strengths:

      The effect size in the genetic data is quite strong and a large number of genetic interaction experiments between cmk-1 and tax-1 demonstrate a complex interaction.

      Thanks a lot for these positive remarks.

      Weaknesses:

      The major concern about this manuscript is the assumption that the process they are observing is habituation. The two previously cited papers using this (or a very similar) protocol, Lia and Glauser 2020 and Jordan and Glauser 2023, both use the word 'adaptation' to describe the observed behavioral decrement. Jordan and Glauser 2023 use the words 'habituation' or 'habituation-like' 10 times, however, they use 'adaptation' over 100 times. It is critical to distinguish habituation from sensory adaptation (or fatigue) in this thermal reversal protocol. These processes are often confused/conflated, however, they are very different; sensory adaptation is a process that decreases how much the nervous system is activated by a repeated stimulus, therefore it can even occur outside of the nervous system. Habituation is a learning process where the nervous system responds less to a repeated stimulus, despite (at least part of the nervous system) the nervous system still being similarly activated by the stimulus. Habituation is considered an attentional process, while adaptation is due to the fatigue of sensory transduction machinery. Control experiments such as tests for dishabituation (where the application of a different stimulus causes recovery of the decremented response) or rate of spontaneous recovery (more rapid recovery after short inter-stimulus intervals) are required to determine if habituation or sensory adaptation are occurring. These experiments will allow the results to be interpreted with clarity, without them, it isn't actually clear what biological process is actually being studied.

      Thanks for the comment. As this reviewer points out, “adaptation” and “habituation” are often conflated. Many scientists (maybe not the majority though) use a less stringent definition for the word habituation, than the one presented by this reviewer. More particularly, the term habituation is used in human pain research to refer solely to the reduction of response to repeated stimuli, in the absence of a detailed assessment of the more stringent criteria mentioned here. In addition to the practice in pain research, the main reason why we steered toward ‘habituation’ from our previous publication is because it immediately conveys the idea of a response reduction, whereas ‘adaptation’ could in principle be either an up-regulation or a down-regulation of the response (again, based on various definitions). But we agree that using the word “habituation” came at the cost of triggering a confusion about the exact nature of the process, for those considering the stricter definition of the word “habituation”. In the manuscript under revision, we are changing this terminology to “adaptation”. Also following suggestions from Reviewer 2, we are strengthening the description of the protocol in the Result section and clarifying, why the adaptation phenomenon is not a ‘thermal damage’ effect or ‘fatigue’ effect in the neuro-muscular circuit controlling reversal.

      While the discrepancy between the in vitro phosphorylation experiments and the in silico predictions was discussed, the substantial discrepancy (over 85% of the substrates in the smaller in vitro dataset were not identified in the larger dataset) between the two different in vitro datasets was not discussed. This is surprising, as these approaches were quite similar, and it may indicate a measure of unreliability in the in vitro datasets (or high false negative rates).

      Thanks for the comment. This is an important aspect which we will more extensively cover in the Discussion section of the revised manuscript.

      The strong consistency of the CMK-1 recognition consensus sequences across the two in vitro dataset speaks against the unreliability of the analyses. Instead, there are a few points to highlight that explain the somewhat low degree of overlap between the two datasets, which indeed relate to the false negative rates as this reviewer suggests.

      (1) In the peptide library analysis, Trypsin cleavage prior to kinase treatment will leave a charged N-term or C- terminus and in addition remove part of the protein context required for efficient kinase recognition. This will have a variable effect across the different substrates in the peptide library, depending on the distance between the cleavage site and the phosphosite, but will not affect the native protein library. This effect increases the false negative rate in the peptide library.

      (2) The number and distribution of “available substrate phosphosites” diverge in the two libraries. Indeed, the peptide library is expected to contain a markedly larger diversity of potential CMK-1 substrate sites than the protein library (because the Trypsin digestion will reveal substrates that are normally buried in a native protein), but the depth of MS analysis is the same for the two libraries. In somewhat simplistic terms, the peptide-library analysis is prone to be saturated with abundant phosphorylated peptides, which prevent detecting all phosphosites. If the peptide analysis could have been made deeper, we would probably have increased the overlap (at the cost of increasing the number of false positive too).

      (3) We have chosen quite strict criteria and applied them separately to define each hit list; therefore, we know we have many false negatives in each list, which will naturally reduce the expected overlap.

      As we will clarify in the revised manuscript, we tend to give more trust to the protein-library dataset (since substrates are in a configuration closer to that in vivo), with those hits also present in the peptide dataset (like TAX-6 was) as the most convincing hits, as they could be validated in a second type of experiment.

      Additionally, the rationale for, and distinction between, the two separate in vitro experiments is not made clear.

      We reasoned that both substrate types have their own benefits and limitations (as discussed in the manuscript), so it was an added value to run both. We proposed that the subset of targets present in both datasets to be the most solid list of candidates. We will also reinforce our point in the revised discussion that the protein-library is likely to contain much less false positives.

      Line 207: After reporting that both tax-6 and cnb-1 mutants have high spontaneous reversals, it is not made clear why cnb-1 is not further explored in the paper. Additionally, this spontaneous reversal data should be in a supplementary figure.

      We kept the focus of the article primarily on TAX-6, because it was identified as CMK-1 target in vitro; CNB-1 was not. Moreover, we didn’t have cnb-1(gf) mutants to pursue the analysis, and we were stuck by the cnb-1(lf) constitutive high reversal rate for any further follow up. We have added a supplementary file to present the spontaneous reversals rates.

      Figure 3 -S1: This model doesn't explain why the cmk-1(gf) group and the cmk-1(gf) +cyclo A group cause enhanced response decrement (presumably by reducing the inhibition by tax-6) but the +cyclo A group (inhibited tax-6) showed weaker response decrement, as here there is even further weakened inhibition of tax-6 on this process. Also, the cmk-1(lf) +cyclo A group is labeled as constitutive habituation, however, this doesn't appear to be the case in Figure 3 (seems like a similar initial level and response decrement phenotype to wildtype).

      Thanks a lot for the comment. We are glad that the presentation of our complex dataset was clear enough to bring the reader to that level of detailed reflection and interpretation on the proposed model. To address the two points raised in this reviewer’s comment, we are modifying to the model presentation and provide additional clarifications below, where we use the term adaptation instead of habituation (as in the revised Figure):

      Regarding the first point, “why the cmk-1(gf) group and the cmk-1(gf) +cyclo A group cause enhanced response decrement … but the +cyclo A group showed weaker response decrement”. This is really a very good point, that cannot be easily explained if all the branches (arrows) in the model have the same weight or work as ON/OFF switches. We tried to convey the relative importance of the regulation effect via the thickness of the arrow lines (which we will clarified in the legend in the revised ms). The main ‘quantitative’ nuances to take into consideration here originate from 2 assuption of the model (which we are clarifying in the revised  manuscript):

      Assumption 1: the inhibitory effect of TAX-6 on the CMK-1 anti-adaptation branch and the inhibitory effect of TAX-6 on the CMK-1 pro-adaptation branch are not of the same magnitude (we have further enhanced the line thickness differences in the revised model, top left panel for wild type).

      Assumption 2: the two antagonistic direct effects of CMK-1 on adaptation are not of the same magnitude, most strikingly in the context of CMK-1(gf) mutants.

      In our model, the cyclosporin A treatment alone (bottom left panel) causes a strong boost on the CMK-1 inhibitory branch and a less marked boost on the CMK-1 activator branch (following assumption 1). This causes an imbalance between the two antagonist direct CMK-1-dependent drives, which reduces (but doesn’t fully block) adaptation. Indeed, we don’t observe a total block of adaptation with cyclosporin A in wild type, the effect being significantly milder than the totally non-adapting phenotypes seen, e.g., in TAX-6(gf) mutants. From there, the question is what happen in CMK-1(gf) background that would mask the anti-adaptation effect of Cyclosporin A? Here assumption 2 is relevant, and the CMK-1(gf) pro-adaptation direct branch is always prevalent and imbalance the regulation toward faster adaptation (the role of TAX-6 becoming negligible in the CMK-1(gf) background and ipso facto that of Cyclosporin A).

      Regarding the second point, “the cmk-1(lf) +cyclo A group is labeled as constitutive habituation”. We regret a confusing word choice in the first version of the manuscript; we intended to mean “normal habituation phenotype” but in the joint absence of antagonistic CMK-1 and TAX-6 regulatory signaling (so the regulation is not like in wild-type, but the phenotype ends up like in wild type). We are modifying the label to “normal adaptation” and will leave a note in the legend that an apparently normal adaptation phenotype seems to be the “default” situation when the two antagonistic regulatory pathways are shut off.

      More discussion of the significance of the sites of cmk-1 and tax-6 function in the neural circuit should take place. Additionally, incorporating the suspected loci of cmk-1 and tax-6 in the neural circuit into the model would be interesting (using proper hypothetical language). For example, as it seems like AFD is not required for the naïve reversal response but just its reduction, cmk-1 activity in AFD might be generating inhibition of the reversal response by AFD. It certainly would be understandable if this isn't workable, given extrasynaptic signaling and other unknowns, but it potentially could also be helpful in generating a working model for these complex interactions. For example, cmk-1 induces AIZ inhibition of AVA (AIZ is electrically coupled to AFD), and tax-6 reduces RIM activation of AVA (these neurons are also electrically coupled according to the diagram). RIM is also a neuropeptide-rich neuron, so this could allow it to interact with the cmk-1-related process(es) in AFD. Some discussion of possibilities like this could be informative.

      Thanks for the comment. These hypothetical inter-cellular communication pathways are indeed nice possibilities. On the other hand, we could envision several additional pathways. Following this helpful suggestion, we will expand the discussion of hypothetical models in the revised manuscript-

      Provide an explanation for why some of the experiments in Figure 4 have such a high N, compared to other experiments.

      The conditions with the highest n correspond to conditions which we have also used as ‘control’ condition for other type of experiments in the lab and as part of side projects, but which could be gathered for the present article. We have been working with cmk-1(lf) and tax-6(gf) mutants for many years… and the robust non-adapting phenotype was a reference point and a quality control when analyzing other non-adapting mutants.

      Because the loss of function and gain of function mutations in cmk-1 have a similar effect, it is likely that this thermosensory plasticity phenotype is sensitive to levels of cmk-1 activity. Therefore, it is not surprising that the cmk-1 promoter failed to rescue very well as these plasmid-driven rescues often result in overexpression. Given this and that the cmk-1p rescue itself was so modest, these rescue experiments are not entirely convincing (and very hard to interpret; for example, is the AFD rescue or the ASER rescue more complete? The ASER one is actually closer to the cmk-1p rescue). Given the sensitivity to cmk-1 activity levels, a degradation strategy would be more likely to deliver clear results (or perhaps even the overactivation approach used for tax-6).

      Thanks for the comment. We respectfully disagree with this reviewer’s statement “the loss of function and gain of function mutations in cmk-1 have a similar effect”. We suspect a confusion here, because our data clearly show that these two mutant types have an opposite phenotype. That being said, we interpret the weak rescue effect with cmk-1p as a probable result of overexpression or incomplete/imbalanced expression across neurons (as the promoter used might not include all the relevant regulatory regions). We dedicated considerable efforts to establish an endogenous CMK-1::degron knock in, for tissue-specific auxin-induced degradation (AID), but we were unfortunately not able to obtain consistent results. Unfortunately, the only useful data regarding CMK-1 place-of-action are the cell-specific rescue data already included in the report.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The reduction in a response to a specific stimulus after repeated exposures is called habituation. Alterations in habituation to noxious stimuli are associated with chronic pain in humans, however, the underlying molecular mechanisms involved are not clear. This study uses the nematode C. elegans to study genes and mechanisms that underlie habituation to a form of noxious stimuli based on heat, termed thermo-noxious stimuli. The authors previously showed that the Calcium/Calmodulin-dependent protein kinase (CMK-1) regulates thermo-nociceptive habituation in the nematode C. elegans. Although CMK-1 is a kinase with many known substrates, the downstream targets relevant for thermo-nociceptive habituation are not known. In this study, the authors use two different kinase screens to identify phosphorylation targets of CMK-1. One of the targets they identify is Calcineurin (TAX-6). The authors show that CMK-1 phosphorylates a regulatory domain of Calcineurin at a highly conserved site (S443). In a series of elegant experiments, the authors use genetic and pharmacological approaches to increase or decrease CMK-1 and Calcineurin signaling to study their effects on thermo-nociceptive habituation in C. elegans. They also combine these various approaches to study the interactions between these two signaling proteins. The authors use specific promoters to determine in which neurons CMK-1 and Calcineurin function to regulate thermo-nociceptive habituation. The authors propose a model based on their findings illustrating that CMK-1 and Calcineurin act mostly in different neurons to antagonistically regulate habituation to thermo-nociceptive stimuli in a complex manner.

      Strengths:

      (1) Given the conservation of habituation across phylogeny, identifying genes and mechanisms that underlie nociceptive habituation in C. elegans may be relevant for understanding chronic pain in humans.

      (2) The identification of canonical CaM Kinase phosphorylation motifs in the substrates identified in the CMK-1 substrate screen validates the screen.

      (3) The use of loss and gain of function approaches to study the effects of CMK-1 and Calcineurin on thermo-nociceptive responses and habituation is elegant.

      (4) The ability to determine the cellular place of action of CMK-1 and Calcineurin using neuron-specific promoters in the nematode is a clear strength of the genetic model system.

      Thanks a lot for these positive remarks.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The manuscript begins by identifying Calcineurin as a direct substrate of CMK-1 but ends by showing that CMK-1 and Calcineurin mostly act in different neurons to regulate nociceptive habituation which disrupts the logical flow of the manuscript.

      We understand this point and we have carefully considered and (re-considered) the way to articulate the report. However, we could not present the story much differently as we would have no justification to investigate the role of TAX-6 and its interaction with CMK-1, if we would not have first identified it a phospho-target in vitro. Carefully considering this point, we found that the abstract of the first manuscript version was probably too cursory and susceptible to trigger wrong expectations among readers. We will extensively revise the abstract to clarify this point. Furthermore, we will reinforce this point in the last paragraph of the introduction.

      (2) The physiological relevance of CMK-1 phosphorylation of Calcineurin is not clear.

      We do agree and will explicitly discuss this aspect in the revised Discussion section, and make is also clear from the abstract on.

      (3) It is not clear if Calcineurin is already a known substrate of CaM Kinases in other systems or if this finding is new.

      We are not aware of any studies having shown Calcineurin is a direct target of CaM kinase I. But it was found to be substrate of CaM kinase II as well as of other kinases, as we explicitly presented in the discussion section. We will complement the text mentioning we are not aware of Calcineurin having so far been reported to by a CaM kinase I substrate.

    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The paper by Lee and Ouellette explores the role of cyclic-d-AMP in chlamydial developmental progression. The manuscript uses a collection of different recombinant plasmids to up- and down-regulate cdAMP production, and then uses classical molecular and microbiological approaches to examine the effects of expression induction in each of the transformed strains.

      Strengths:

      This laboratory is a leader in the use of molecular genetic manipulation in Chlamydia trachomatis and their efforts to make such efforts mainstream is commendable. Overall, the model described and defended by these investigators is thorough and significant.

      Weaknesses:

      The biggest weakness in the document is their reliance on quantitative data that is statistically not significant, in the interpretation of results. These challenges can be addressed in a revision by the authors.

      Thank you for these comments. We have generated new data, which we hope the reviewer will find more compelling. These will be included in a revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript describes the role of the production of c-di-AMP on the chlamydial developmental cycle. Chlamydia are obligate intracellular bacterial pathogens that rely on eukaryotic host cells for growth. The chlamydial life cycle depends on a cell form developmental cycle that produces phenotypically distinct cell forms with specific roles during the infectious cycle. The RB cell form replicates amplifying chlamydia numbers while the EB cell form mediates entry into new host cells disseminating the infection to new hosts. Regulation of cell form development is a critical question in chlamydia biology and pathogenesis. Chlamydia must balance amplification (RB numbers) and dissemination (EB numbers) to maximize survival in its infection niche. The main findings In this manuscript show that overexpression of the dacA-ybbR operon results in increased production of c-di-AMP and early expression of the transitionary gene hctA and late gene omcB. The authors also knocked down the expression of the dacA-ybbR operon and reported a reduction in the expression of both hctA and omcB. The authors conclude with a model suggesting the amount of c-di-AMP determines the fate of the RB, continued replication, or EB conversion. Overall, this is a very intriguing study with important implications however the data is very preliminary and the model is very rudimentary and is not well supported by the data.

      Thank you for your comments. Chlamydia is not an easy experimental system, but we will do our best to address the reviewer’s concerns in a revised submission.

      Describing the significance of the findings:

      The findings are important and point to very exciting new avenues to explore the important questions in chlamydial cell form development. The authors present a model that is not quantified and does not match the data well.

      Describing the strength of evidence:

      The evidence presented is incomplete. The authors do a nice job of showing that overexpression of the dacA-ybbR operon increases c-di-AMP and that knockdown or overexpression of the catalytically dead DacA protein decreases the c-di-AMP levels. However, the effects on the developmental cycle and how they fit the proposed model are less well supported.

      dacA-ybbR ectopic expression:

      For the dacA-ybbR ectopic expression experiments they show that hctA is induced early but there is no significant change in OmcB gene expression. This is problematic as when RBs are treated with Pen (this paper) and (DOI 10.1128/MSYSTEMS.00689-20) hctA is expressed in the aberrant cell forms but these forms do not go on to express the late genes suggesting stress events can result in changes in the developmental expression kinetic profile. The RNA-seq data are a little reassuring as many of the EB/Late genes were shown to be upregulated by dacA-ybbR ectopic expression in this assay.

      As the reviewer notes, we also generated RNAseq data, which validates that late gene transcripts (including sigma28 and sigma54 regulated genes) are statistically significantly increased earlier in the developmental cycle in parallel to increased c-di-AMP levels. The lack of statistical significance in the RT-qPCR data for omcB, which shows a trend of higher transcripts, is less concerning given the statistically significantly RNAseq dataset. We have reported the data from three replicates for the RT-qPCR and do not think it would be worthwhile to attempt more replicates in an attempt to “achieve” statistical significance.

      The authors also demonstrate that this ectopic expression reduces the overall growth rate but produces EBs earlier in the cycle but overall fewer EBs late in the cycle. This observation matches their model well as when RBs convert early there is less amplification of cell numbers.

      dacA knockdown and dacA(mut)

      The authors showed that dacA knockdown and ectopic expression of the dacA mutant both reduced the amount of c-di-AMP. The authors show that for both of these conditions, hctA and omcB expression is reduced at 24 hpi. This was also partially supported by the RNA-seq data for the dacA knockdown as many of the late genes were downregulated. However, a shift to an increase in RB-only genes was not readily evident. This is maybe not surprising as the chlamydial inclusion would just have an increase in RB forms and changes in cell form ratios would need more time points.

      Thank you for this comment. We agree that it is not surprising given the shift in cell forms. The reduction in hctA transcripts argues against a stress state as noted above by the reviewer, and the RNAseq data from dacA-KD conditions indicates at least that secondary differentiation has been delayed. We will try to clarify this in a revision.

      Interestingly, the overall growth rate appears to differ in these two conditions, growth is unaffected by dacA knockdown but is significantly affected by the expression of the mutant. In both cases, EB production is repressed. The overall model they present does not support this data well as if RBs were blocked from converting into EBs then the growth rate should increase as the RB cell form replicates while the EB cell form does not. This should shift the population to replicating cells.

      We agree that it seems that perturbing c-di-AMP production, whether by knockdown or overexpressing the mutant DacA(D164N), has an overall negative impact on chlamydial growth. We have generated new data, which we think will address this. These new data will be included in a revised manuscript.

      Overall this is a very intriguing finding that will require more gene expression data, phenotypic characterization of cell forms, and better quantitative models to fully interpret these findings.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors Eapen et al. investigated the peptide inhibitors of Cdc20. They applied a rational design approach, substituting residues found in the D-box consensus sequences to better align the peptides with the Cdc20-degron interface. In the process, the authors designed and tested a series of more potent binders, including ones that contain unnatural amino acids, and verified binding modes by elucidating the Cdc-20-peptide structures. The authors further showed that these peptides can engage with Cdc20 in the cellular context, and can inhibit APC/C<sup>Cdc20</sup> ubiquitination activity. Finally, the authors demonstrated that these peptides could be used as portable degron motifs that drive the degradation of a fused fluorescent protein.

      Strengths:

      This manuscript is clear and straightforward to follow. The investigation of different peptide variations was comprehensive and well-executed. This work provided the groundwork for the development of peptide drug modalities to inhibit degradation or apply peptides as portable motifs to achieve targeted degradation. Both of which are impactful.

      Weaknesses:

      A few minor comments:

      (1) In my opinion, more attention to the solubility issue needs to be discussed and/or tested. On page 10, what is the solubility of D2 before a modification was made? The authors mentioned that position 2 is likely solvent exposed, it is not immediately clear to me why the mutation made was from one hydrophobic residue to another. What was the level of improvement in solubility? Are there any affinity data associated with the peptide that differ with D2 only at position 2?

      The reviewer is correct that we have not done any detailed solubility characterisation; we refer only to observations rather than quantitative analysis. We wrote that we reverted from Leu to Ala due to solubility - we will clarify this statement to say that that we reverted to Ala, as it was the residue present in D1, for which we observed a measurable affinity by SPR and saw a concentration-dependent response in the thermal shift analysis. We do not have any peptides or affinity data that explore single-site mutations with the parental peptide of D2. D2 is included in the paper because of its link to the consensus D-box sequence and thus was the logical path to the investigations into positions 3 and 7 that come later in the manuscript.

      (2) I'm not entirely convinced that the D19 density not observed in the crystal structure was due to crystal packing. This peptide is peculiar as it also did not induce any thermal stabilization of Cdc20 in the cellular thermal shift assay. Perhaps the binding of this peptide could be investigated in more detail (i.e., NMR?) Or at least more explanation could be provided.

      This section will be clarified. The lack of observed density was likely due to the relatively low affinity of D19 and also to the lack of binding of the three C-terminal residues in the crystal, and consequently it has a further reduced affinity. The current wording in the manuscript puts greater emphasis on this second aspect being a D19-specific issue, even though it applies to all four soaked peptides. The extent of peptide-induced thermal stabilisations observed by TSA and CETSA is different, with the latter experiment consistently showing smaller shifts. This observation may be due to the more complex medium (cell lysate vs. purified protein) and/or different concentrations of the proteins in solution. In the CETSA, we over-expressed a HiBiT-tagged Cdc20, which is present in addition to any endogenously expressed Cdc20. Although we did not investigate it, the near identical D-box binding sites on Cdc20 and Cdh1 would suggest that there will be cross-specificity, which could further influence the CETSA experiments.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors took a well-characterised (partly by them), important E3 ligase, in the anaphase-promoting complex, and decided to design peptide inhibitors for it based on one of the known interacting motifs (called D-box) from its substrates. They incorporate unnatural amino acids to better occupy the interaction site, improve the binding affinity, and lay foundations for future therapeutics - maybe combining their findings with additional target sites.

      Strengths:

      The paper is mostly strengths - a logical progression of experiments, very well explained and carried out to a high standard. The authors use a carefully chosen variety of techniques (including X-ray crystallography, multiple binding analyses, and ubiquitination assays) to verify their findings - and they impressively achieve their goals by honing in on tight-binders.

      Weaknesses:

      Some things are not explained fully and it would be useful to have some clarification. Why did the authors decide to model their inhibitors on the D-box motif and not the other two SLiMs that they describe?

      For completeness, in addition to the D-box we did originally construct peptides based on the ABBA and KEN-box motifs, but they did not show any shift in melting temperature of cdc20 in the thermal shift assay whereas the D-box peptides did; consequently, we focused our efforts on the D-box peptides. Moreover, there is much evidence from the literature that points to the unique importance of the D-box motif in mediating productive interactions of substrates with the APC/C (i.e. those leading to polyubiquitination & degradation). One of the clearest examples is a study by Mark Hall’s lab (described in Qin et al. 2016), which tested the degradation of 15 substrates of yeast APC/C in strains carrying alleles of Cdh1 in which the docking sites for D-box, KEN or ABBA were mutated. They observed that whereas degradation of all 15 substrates depended on D-box binding, only a subset required the KEN binding site on Cdh1 and only one required the ABBA binding site. A more recent study from David Morgan’s lab (Hartooni et al. 2022) looking at binding affinities of different degron peptides concluded that KEN motif has very low affinity for Cdc20 and is unlikely to mediate degradation of APC/C-Cdc20 substrates. Engagement of substrate with the D-box receptor is therefore the most critical event mediating APC/C activity and the interaction that needs to be blocked for most effective inhibition of substrate degradation.

      What exactly do they mean when they say their 'observation is consistent with the idea that high-affinity binding at degron binding sites on APC/C, such as in the case of the yeast 'pseudo-substrate' inhibitor Acm1, acts to impede polyubiquitination of the bound protein'? It's an interesting thing to think about, and probably the paper they cite explains it more but I would like to know without having to find that other paper.

      Interesting results from a number of labs (Choi et al. 2008, Enquist-Newman et al. 2008, Burton et al. 2011, Qin et al. 2019) have shown that mutation of degron SLiMs in Acm1 that weaken interaction with the APC/C have the unexpected consequence of converting Acm1 from APC/C inhibitor to APC/C substrate. A necessary conclusion of these studies is that the outcome of degron binding (i.e. whether the binder functions as substrate or inhibitor) depends on factors other than D-box affinity and that D-box affinity can counteract them. One idea is that if a binder interacts too tightly, this removes some flexibility required for the polyubiquitination process. The most recent study on this question (Qin et al.2019) specifically pins the explanation for the inhibitory function of the high affinity D-box in Acm1 on its ‘D-box Extension’ (i.e. residues 8-12) preventing interaction with APC10. In our current study, the binding affinity of peptides is measured against Cdc20. In cellular assays however, the D-box must also engage APC10 for degradation to occur. It may be that the peptide binding most strongly to the D-box pocket on Cdc20 is less able to bind to APC10 and therefore less effective in triggering APC10-dependent steps in the polyubiquitination pathway. The important Hartooni et al. paper from David Morgan’s lab confirms that even though the binding of D-box residues to APC10 is very weak on its own, it can contribute 100X increase in affinity of a peptide by adding cooperativity to the interaction of D-box with co-activator.

      After further reading on this topic, we will modify the relevant piece of text from:

      “However, we found the opposite effect: D2 and D3 showed increased rates of mNeon degradation compared to D1 and D19 (Fig. 8C,D). This observation is consistent with the idea that high-affinity binding at degron binding sites on APC/C, such as in the case of the yeast ‘pseudo-substrate’ inhibitor Acm1, acts to impede polyubiquitination of the bound protein (Qin et al. 2019). Indeed, there is no evidence that Hsl1, which is the highest affinity natural D-box (D1) used in our study, is degraded any more rapidly than other substrates of APC/C in yeast mitosis. As shown in Qin et al., mutation of the high affinity D-box in Acm1 converts it from inhibitor to substrate (Qin et al. 2019). Overall, our results support the conclusions that all the D-box peptides engage productively with the APC/C and that the highest affinity interactors act as inhibitors rather than functional degrons of APC/C.”

      to:

      “However, we found the opposite effect: D2 and D3 showed increased rates of mNeon degradation compared to D1 and D19 (Fig. 8C,D). This observation is consistent with conclusions from other studies that affinity of degron binding does not necessarily correlate with efficiency of degradation. Indeed, there is no evidence that Hsl1, which is the highest affinity natural D-box (D1) used in our study, is degraded any more rapidly than other substrates of APC/C in yeast mitosis. A number of studies of a yeast ‘pseudo-substrate’ inhibitor Acm1, have shown that mutation of the high affinity D-box in Acm1 converts it from inhibitor to substrate (Choi et al. 2008, Enquist-Newman et al. 2008, Burton et al. 2011) through a mechanism that governs recruitment of APC10 (Qin et al. 2019). Our study does not consider the contribution of APC10 to binding of our peptides to APC/C<sup>Cdc20</sup> complex, but since there is strong cooperativity provided by this additional interaction (Hartooni et al. 2022) we propose this as the critical factor in determining the ability of the different peptides to mediate degradation of associated mNeon.”

      Re Figure 6 and the fact that we did look at peptide binding in cells, these experiments were done in unsynchronised cells, so most Cdc20 would not be bound to APC/C.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Eapen and coworkers use a rational design approach to generate new peptide-inspired ligands at the D-box interface of cdc20. These new peptides serve as new starting points for blocking APC/C in the context of cancer, as well as manipulating APC/C for targeted protein degradation therapeutic approaches.

      Strengths:

      The characterization of new peptide-like ligands is generally solid and multifaceted, including binding assays, thermal stability enhancement in vitro and in cells, X-ray crystallography, and degradation assays.

      Weaknesses:

      One important finding of the study is that the strongest binders did not correlate with the fastest degradation in a cellular assay, but explanations for this behavior were not supported experimentally. Some minor issues regarding experimental replicates and details were also noted.

      Interesting results from a number of labs (Choi et al. 2008, Enquist-Newman et al. 2008, Burton et al. 2011, Qin et al. 2019) have shown that mutation of degron SLiMs in Acm1 that weaken interaction with the APC/C have the unexpected consequence of converting Acm1 from APC/C inhibitor to APC/C substrate. A necessary conclusion of these studies is that the outcome of degron binding (i.e. whether the binder functions as substrate or inhibitor) depends on factors other than D-box affinity and that D-box affinity can counteract them. One idea is that if a binder interacts too tightly, this removes some flexibility required for the polyubiquitination process. The most recent study on this question (Qin et al.2019) specifically pins the explanation for the inhibitory function of the high affinity D-box in Acm1 on its ‘D-box Extension’ (i.e. residues 8-12) preventing interaction with APC10. In our current study, the binding affinity of peptides is measured against Cdc20. In cellular assays however, the D-box must also engage APC10 for degradation to occur. It may be that the peptide binding most strongly to the D-box pocket on Cdc20 is less able to bind to APC10 and therefore less effective in triggering APC10-dependent steps in the polyubiquitination pathway. The important Hartooni et al. paper from David Morgan’s lab confirms that even though the binding of D-box residues to APC10 is very weak on its own, it can contribute 100X increase in affinity of a peptide by adding cooperativity to the interaction of D-box with co-activator.

      After further reading on this topic, we will modify the relevant piece of text from:

      “However, we found the opposite effect: D2 and D3 showed increased rates of mNeon degradation compared to D1 and D19 (Fig. 8C,D). This observation is consistent with the idea that high-affinity binding at degron binding sites on APC/C, such as in the case of the yeast ‘pseudo-substrate’ inhibitor Acm1, acts to impede polyubiquitination of the bound protein (Qin et al. 2019). Indeed, there is no evidence that Hsl1, which is the highest affinity natural D-box (D1) used in our study, is degraded any more rapidly than other substrates of APC/C in yeast mitosis. As shown in Qin et al., mutation of the high affinity D-box in Acm1 converts it from inhibitor to substrate (Qin et al. 2019). Overall, our results support the conclusions that all the D-box peptides engage productively with the APC/C and that the highest affinity interactors act as inhibitors rather than functional degrons of APC/C.”

      to:

      “However, we found the opposite effect: D2 and D3 showed increased rates of mNeon degradation compared to D1 and D19 (Fig. 8C,D). This observation is consistent with conclusions from other studies that affinity of degron binding does not necessarily correlate with efficiency of degradation. Indeed, there is no evidence that Hsl1, which is the highest affinity natural D-box (D1) used in our study, is degraded any more rapidly than other substrates of APC/C in yeast mitosis. A number of studies of a yeast ‘pseudo-substrate’ inhibitor Acm1, have shown that mutation of the high affinity D-box in Acm1 converts it from inhibitor to substrate (Choi et al. 2008, Enquist-Newman et al. 2008, Burton et al. 2011) through a mechanism that governs recruitment of APC10 (Qin et al. 2019). Our study does not consider the contribution of APC10 to binding of our peptides to APC/C<sup>Cdc20</sup> complex, but since there is strong cooperativity provided by this additional interaction (Hartooni et al. 2022) we propose this as the critical factor in determining the ability of the different peptides to mediate degradation of associated mNeon.”

      Re Figure 6 and the fact that we did look at peptide binding in cells, these experiments were done in unsynchronised cells, so most Cdc20 would not be bound to APC/C.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      In the manuscript entitled "A VgrG2b fragment cleaved by caspase-11/4 promotes Pseudomonas aeruginosa infection through suppressing the NLRP3 inflammasome", Qian et al. found an activation of the non-canonical inflammasome, but not the downstream NLRP3 inflammasome, during the infection of macrophage by P. aeruginosa, which is in sharp contrast to that by E. coli (Figure 1). In realizing that the suppression of the NLRP3 inflammasome is Caspase-11 dependent, the authors performed a screening among P. aeruginosa proteins and identified VgrG2b being a major substrate of Caspase-11 (Figure 2). Next, the authors mapped the cleavage site on VgrG2b to D883, and demonstrated that cleavage of VgrG2b by Caspase-11 is essential for the suppression of the NLRP3 inflammasome (Figure 3). Furthermore, they found that a binding between the C-terminal fragment of the cleaved VgrG2b and NLRP3 existed (Figure 4), which was then proved to block the association of NLRP3 with NEK7 (Figure 5). Finally, the authors demonstrated that blocking of VgrG2b cleavage, by either mutation of the D883 or administration of a designed peptide, effectively improved the survival rate of the P. aeruginosa-infected mice (Figure 6). This is a well-designed and executed study, with the results clearly presented and stated.

      We are deeply grateful for your recognition and positive comments on our article. Thank you for your effort and dedication in reviewing our manuscript. We are honored to have the opportunity to receive feedback form professional reviewers like you.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In their manuscript, Quian and colleagues identified a novel mechanism by which Pseudomonas control inflammatory responses upon inflammasome activation. They identified a caspase-11 substrate (VgrG2b) which, upon cleavage, binds and inhibits the NLRP3 to reduce the production of pro-inflammatory cytokines. This is a unique mechanism that allows for the tailoring of the innate immune response upon bacterial recognition.

      Strengths:

      The authors are presenting here a novel conceptual framework in host-pathogen interactions. Their work is supported by a range of approaches (biochemical, cellular immunology, microbiology, animal models), and their conclusions are supported by multiple independent evidences. The work is likely to have an important impact on the innate immunity field and host-pathogen interactions field and may guide the development of novel inhibitors.

      Weaknesses:

      Although quite exhaustive, a few of the authors' conclusions are not fully supported (e.g., caspase-11 directly cleaving VgrG2b, the unique affinity of VgrG2b-C for NLRP3) and would require complementary approaches to validate their findings fully. This is minimal.

      We sincerely appreciate your professional review and kind appraisal on our article. These comments are really valuable and helpful for improving our manuscript. According to your suggestions, we have made some modifications and added some supplemental data to make our results more convincing. The detailed responses are listed point-by-point below.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I really enjoyed reading your manuscript and believe this is an important conceptual advance for the innate immunity field. Your conclusions are in general well-supported, you used a range of methodologies and the quality of the presentation of the results is excellent. I have a few comments here that I hope will contribute to improving an already great piece of work:

      Elements to be improved:

      Line 109-110: the author claims that the release of mito DNA is required for NLRP3 activation. ' I would support this with a reference. I believe this may not be fully agreed on in the field. Cleavage of GSDMD by caspase4/11 is required, however. A few groups showed the required for K+ efflux in this context (Broz, Brough, Schroder labs).

      It is a very good suggestion. Indeed, there is still controversy over this issue, and we have revised our text to make our manuscript more neutral. We have also cited these important references to help readers understand where the controversy lies.

      I disagree that OMV _+ Pseudomonas is a natural way to simulate natural infection. I would argue it is even quite artificial. Pseudomonas alone should be sufficient to generate OMV without the addition of extra OMVs.

      This is a good point. Before we infected BMDM cells with PAO1 stains, we had washed with PBS for at least three times to exclude the interference of contents in the LB medium. Moreover, in our experimental system, the time for co-incubation between bacteria and host cells is very limited. During this time, the amount of OMV secreted by bacteria may not reach the level of activating inflammasomes, and this concentration is also relatively low compared to the OMV concentration secreted by bacteria under physiological conditions. Therefore, we added extra OMVs to simulate the chronic infection condition in a short time.

      The co-expression of caspase with VrG2b and assume the cleavage is direct. However, the work is lacking work with recombinant proteases (commercially available), which would strengthen their conclusions regarding the ability of caspase-4/11 to directly cleave the protein. Based on the recognised sequence (DXXD), I believe caspase-4/11 is not directly responsible for this. These caspases were shown to cleave caspase-3/7, which can cleave such sequence (DXXX). As caspase-4 can cleave caspase-3/7 in their lysates, I would recommend testing this hypothesis to further strengthen the authors' conclusions.

      These are very good points. As data shown on Fig. 3F, we used recombinant VgrG2b and caspase-11 p22/p10 to prove the direct cleavage of caspase-11. To exclude the effect of caspase-3/7, we treated cells with inhibitors of caspase-3/7 and found that caspase-3/7 are not the executor for VgrG2b cleavage (new Fig. S3E, F).

      The affinity between caspase-11 and VgrG2b-C is puzzling as one would normally expect the caspase and its substrates to quickly dissociate. Does VgrG2b-C impact the activity of caspase-4/11 upon cleavage? Can VrgG2b-C also interact with p20/p10 caspase-1? I believe the authors only tried the full-length version of caspase-1 in supplemental.

      These are very good questions. We agree enzymes and substrates only have temporary interactions normally, which are not easy to catch. However, we used mutant caspase-11(C254A) inhibiting its cleavage of substrates, so that the combination of VgrG2b or VgrG2b-C with caspase-11(C254A) could be detected. This mutation is frequently used in immunoprecipitation (Wang K, Cell, 2020). We had tested the impact of VgrG2b-C on the enzyme activity of caspase-4/11, and showed that VgrG2b-C did not affect the cleavage of GSDMD by caspase-11 (Fig. 5C). We also tried the caspase-1 p20/p10, also found that they had no interaction with VgrG2b-C (new Fig. S4G).

      Can more details be provided about the generation of recombinant caspase-11, VgrG2b-C, and other recombinant proteins tested?

      Thanks for your suggestion, we have revised our description in the new version.

      The authors assumed that VgrG2C-b does not impact other inflammasome (such as NLRC4) based on their X-gal assay. I would also confirm this with a functional assay (e.g., transfection of flagellin in macrophages).

      This is a good suggestion. We have tested the impact of VgrG2b-C on NLRC4 inflammasome and found that VgrG2b-C does not affect NLRC4 activation with the transfection of flagellin (new Fig. S5K).

      Often, representative experiments are shown. For Elisa, cell death assays and quantitative experiments, pooling the data would be appropriate. Appropriate statistical analysis should be conducted based on this as well.

      Thanks for your suggestions. In the revised manuscript, we pooled the data of three independent experiments for our analysis of ELISA and cell death assays. We also added descriptions of statistical analysis in our revised text.

      VgrG2b has been suggested to be a metalloprotease (PMID: 31577948). Is its protease activity required for the phenomenon observed?

      This is a very good question. The active region of metalloprotease VgrG2b-C is aa932-941, especially the core sequence of HEXXH. Structure data also confirms that H935, E936, H939, E983 play key roles in the coordination with Zn ions (Sana TG, mBio, 2015; Wood TE, Cell reports, 2019). In our study, the cleavage of VgrG2b by caspase-4/11 depends on the recognition of tetrapeptide sequence in aa880-883. We added data showing that the cleavage of VgrG2b and the inhibition of NLRP3 inflammasome were not affected by VgrG2b enzymatic activity (new Fig. S4I-K).

      What is the affinity of VgrG2b-C for NLRP3? Is it higher than NEK7? A quantitative experiment would be required to claim this.

      This is a great point of view. We added the quantitative data certifying that VgrG2b-C has higher affinity with NLRP3 compared with NEK7 in the revised manuscript (326 nM VS 681 nM).

      The Material and Method section is a bit light and would benefit from adding more information (e.g. cell density, microscopy details, number of cells imaged, etc).

      Thanks for your suggestion. We have added more details in the Material and Method section in revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      We thank the reviewers for their concise and detailed summaries, and appreciate the constructive feedback on the article’s strengths and weaknesses. In response, we plan to strengthen our work in a revised version by presenting the model assumptions for the electrocyte more explicitly and further elaborate on the generalisability of the results to other cell types with different ion channels including calcium and chloride.

      Experimental work is beyond the scope of our modelling-based study. However, we would like our work to serve as a framework for future experimental studies into the role of the electrogenic pump current (and its possible compensatory currents) in disease, and its role in evolution of highly specialised excitable cells (such as electrocytes).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary: 

      The authors demonstrate that, while the loss of Ezrin increases lysosomal biogenesis and function, its presence is required for the specific endocytosis of EGFR. Upon further investigation, the authors reveal that Ezrin is a crucial intermediary protein that links EGFR to AKT, leading to the phosphorylation and inhibition of TSC. TSC is a critical negative regulator of the mTORC1 complex, which is dysregulated in various diseases, making their findings a valuable addition to multiple fields of study. Their cell signaling findings are translatable to an in vivo Medaka fish model and suggest that Ezrin may play a crucial role in retinal degeneration.

      Strengths: 

      Giamundo, Intartaglia, et al. utilized unbiased proteomic and transcriptomic screens in Ezrin KO cells to investigate the mechanistic function of Ezrin in lysosome and cell signaling pathways. The authors' findings are consistent with past literature demonstrating Ezrin's role in the EGFR and mTORC1 signaling pathways. They used several cell lines, small molecule inhibitors, and cellular and in vivo knockout models to validate signaling changes through biochemical and microscopy assays. Their use of multiple advanced microscopy techniques is also impressive.

      We are grateful to the Editor and the Reviewers for their important and constructive comments, which amended us to improve our manuscript. We have now carried out new experiments and analyses to further support our findings.

      Weaknesses: 

      While the authors demonstrated activation of TSC1 (lysosomal accumulation) and inactivation of Akt (decreased phosphorylation in TSC1), as well as decreased mTORC1 signaling in Ezrin knockout cells, direct experiments showing the rescue of mTORC1 activity by AKT and TSC1 mutants are required to confirm the linear signaling pathway and establish Ezrin as a mediator of EGFR-AKTTSC1-mTORC1 signaling. Although the authors presented representative images from advanced microscopy techniques to support their claims, there is insufficient quantification of these experiments. Additionally, several immunoblots in the manuscript lack vital loading controls, such as input lanes for immunoprecipitations and loading controls for western blots.

      We wish to thank the Reviewer for his/her important and constructive comments on our manuscript and to consider that our study provides new information for understanding the mechanism regulating TSC/mTORC1 pathway. We have now extensively revised the manuscript according to his/her suggestions. Indeed, to expand on the evidence demonstrating Ezrin as a mediator of EGFR-AKTTSC1-mTORC1 signaling, the revised manuscript includes quantification of all advanced microscopy images, rescue experiments demonstrating the role of Ezrin in AKT/TSC/mTORC1 molecular network, and controls for WBs and immunoprecipitations.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary: 

      The authors begin with the stated goal of gaining insight into the known repression of autophagy by Ezrin, a major membrane-actin linker that assembles signaling complexes on membranes. RNA and protein expression analysis is consistent with upregulation of lysosomal proteins in Ezrin-deficient MEFs, which the authors confirm by immunostaining and western blotting for lysosomal markers. Expression analysis also implicates EGF signaling as being altered downstream of Ezrin loss, and the authors demonstrate that Ezrin promotes relocalization of EGFR from the plasma membrane to endosomes. Ezrin loss impacts downstream MAPK/Akt/mTORC1 signaling, although the mechanistic links remain unclear. An Ezrin mutant Medaka fish line was then generated to test Ezrin's role in retinal cells, which are known to be sensitive to changes in autophagy regulation. Phenotypes in this model appear generally consistent with observations made in cultured cells, though mild overall. 

      Strengths: 

      Data on the impact of Ezrin-loss on relocalization of EGFR from the plasma membrane are extensive, and thoroughly demonstrate that Ezrin is required for EGFR internalization in response to EGF. 

      A new Ezrin-deficient in vivo model (Medaka fish) is generated.

      Strong data demonstrates that Ezrin loss suppresses Akt signaling. Ezrin loss also clearly suppresses mTORC1 signaling in cell culture, although examination of mTORC1 activity is notably missing in Ezrin-deficient fish. 

      We thank the Reviewer for the recognition of our study and apologize for the insufficient evidence reported in the previous version of the manuscript. As requested by the Reviewer, we considerably expanded the number of experiments to support EZRIN/EGFR/TSC molecular network in regulating autophagy pathway in the revised manuscript. Furthermore, following the Reviewer’s comment we have expanded the interpretation of our findings in the "Discussion” section. We hope the new version of our manuscript will satisfy the Reviewer’s worries.

      Weaknesses: 

      LC3 is used as a readout of autophagy, however the lipidated/unlipidated LC3 ratio generally does not appear to change, thus there does not appear to be evidence that Ezrin loss is affecting autophagy in this study. 

      We certainly agree with the Reviewer on the importance of this issue and apologize for the lack of clarity. Ezrin is an already widely characterized protein participating autophagy pathway. Several studies, including our previous studies, demonstrated that both silencing and pharmacological inhibition of Ezrin may promote autophagy by promoting activation of TFEB, in part through the TRPML1-calcineurin signaling pathway (Naso et al 2020; Intartaglia et al 2022; Lou et al 2024). However, a full elucidation on how Ezrin controls autophagy is still not unknown. As suggested by the Reviewer, to reinforce our data, we have now fixed this inaccuracy by better elucidating this aspect in the revised manuscript. Accordingly, we have monitored the autophagic flux and LC3 expression level following the guidelines for the use and interpretation of assays for monitoring autophagy (4th edition) by Klionsky et al. 2021. The data presented in the new Figure supplement 1 now better support the notion that depletion of Ezrin increases autophagic flux. We hope the new version of our manuscript will satisfy the Reviewer’s worries.

      The conclusion is drawn that Ezrin loss suppresses EGF signaling, however this is complicated by a strong increase in phosphorylation of the p38 MAPK substrate MK2. Without additional characterization of MAPK and Erk signaling, the effect of Ezrin loss remains unclear.  Causative conclusions between effects on MAPK, Akt, and mTORC1 signaling are frequently drawn, but the data only demonstrate correlations. For example, many signaling pathways can activate mTORC1 including MAPK/Erk, thus reduced mTORC1 activity upon Ezrin-loss cannot currently be attributed to reduced Akt signaling. Similarly, other kinases can phosphorylate TSC2 at the sites examined here, so the conclusion cannot be drawn that Ezrin-loss causes a reduction in Akt-mediated TSC2 phosphorylation.

      We agree with the Reviewer that this is an interesting and important question. However, we respectfully disagree with the Reviewer and feel that addressing this point by additional studies on both MAPK and ERK pathways, as the Reviewer suggests, is outside the scope of this manuscript. We therefore prefer to address these questions in future studies. However, following the Reviewer’s comment we have expanded the interpretation of our findings in the "Discussion” section. We hope the new version of our manuscript will satisfy the Reviewer’s worries.

      In Figure 7, the conclusion cannot be drawn that retinal degeneration results from aberrant EGFR signaling.

      We certainly agree with the Reviewer on the importance of this issue. We now fixed this inaccuracy by adding TUNEL staining that showed the retinal degeneration in Ezrin KO medaka fish. The results of these assays are described in the Results section and documented in revised Figure 7, panels H.

      It is unclear why TSC1 is highlighted in the title, as there does not appear to be any specific regulation of TSC1 here. 

      We modified the title accordingly

      In Figure 1 the conclusion is drawn that there is an increase in lysosome number with Ezrin KO, however it does not appear that the current analysis can distinguish an increased number from increased lysosome size or activity. Similarly, conclusions about increased lysosome "biogenesis" could instead reflect decreased turnover.

      Following this Reviewer’s observation, we changed the text according to his/her suggestion.

      Immunoprecipitation data for a role for Ezrin as a signaling scaffold appear minimal and seem to lack important controls.

      We apologize for these inaccuracies. We have now carried out new experiments to further support our findings. Moreover, all blots were changed for better exposed images. In the revised Figures the controls were showed.

      In Figure 3A it seems difficult to conclude that EGFR dimerization is reduced since the whole blot, including the background between lanes, is lighter on that side.

      We now fixed this inaccuracy. The blots were changed for better exposed images in revised Figure 3, panel A. and quantified

      In Figure 6C specificity controls for the TSC1 and TSC2 antibodies are not included but seem necessary since their localization patterns appear very different from each other in WT cells.

      We apologize because we have created some confusion. We have now emended this mistake and revised all panels in Figure 6C (now Figure 6D) for consistency between figures and text. Concerning the specificity of TSC1 and TSC2 antibodies and staining, indeed, antibodies labelling was showing the ordinary pattern from TSC in the cells as stated in Menon et al. 2014. We would like to point out that the antibodies are the same indicated in Menon et al. 2014 and our data are not only based on TSC1 and TSC2 staining but on a considerable number of in vivo and in vitro experiments in which many and different markers were used by performing several complementary approaches (i.e. immunofluorescence, western blot analysis, Omics, etc.)

      Menon S, Dibble CC, Talbott G, Hoxhaj G, Valvezan AJ, Takahashi H, Cantley LC, Manning BD. Spatial control of the TSC complex integrates insulin and nutrient regulation of mTORC1 at the lysosome. Cell. 2014 Feb 13;156(4):771-85.

      In Figure 7 the signaling effects in Ezrin-deficient fish are mild compared to cultured cells, and effects on mTORC1 are not examined. Further data on the retinal cell phenotypes would strengthen the conclusions.

      We thank the Reviewer for his/her comment. We have now fixed this inaccuracy in the revised manuscript. We added the analysis for p4EBP1 (S65), a mTORC1 substrate Figure 7 panel D. 

      In Figure 7F there appears to be more EGFR throughout the cell, so it is difficult to conclude that more EGFR at the PM in Ezrin-/- fish means reduced internalization. 

      We agree with the Reviewer that it is an important question that helped us to improve the quality of the data presented. As correctly noted by the Reviewer, EGFR protein level is increased due to EZRIN deletion. This is evident in Figure 7 panel F, in line with both proteomic analysis and in vitro experiments (Figure 2I; Figure 3E; Figure 5C). We also agree that the increase of EGFR protein level could strength the background of immunofluorescence. Therefore, to better represent the EGFR membrane translocation on flat mount RPE from medaka lines, we add a highlighting box showing it in both WT and KO medaka line in the revised Figure 7 panel F.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      In this study, the authors have attempted to demonstrate a critical role for the cytoskeletal scaffold protein Ezrin, in the upstream regulation of EGFR/AKT/MTOR signaling. They show that in the absence of Ezrin, ligand-induced EGFR trafficking and activation at the endosomes is perturbed, with decreased endosomal recruitment of the TSC complex, and a corresponding decrease in AKT/MTOR signaling. 

      Strengths: 

      The authors have used a combination of novel imaging techniques, as well as conventional proteomic and biochemical assays to substantiate their findings. The findings expand our understanding of the upstream regulators of the EGFR/AKT MTOR signaling and lysosomal biogenesis, appear to be conserved in multiple species, and may have important implications for the pathogenesis and treatment of diseases involving endo-lysosomal function, such as diabetes and cancer, as well as neuro-degenerative diseases like macular degeneration. Furthermore, pharmacological targeting of Ezrin could potentially be utilized in diseases with defective TFEB/TFE3 functions like LSDs. While a majority of the findings appear to support the hypotheses, there are substantial gaps in the findings that could be better addressed. Since Ezrin appears to directly regulate MTOR activity, the effects of Ezrin KO on MTOR-regulated, TFEB/TFE3 -driven lysosomal function should be explored more thoroughly. Similarly, a more convincing analysis of autophagic flux should be carried out. Additionally, many immunoblots lack key controls (Control IgG in co-IPs) and many others merit repetition to either improve upon the quality of the existing data, validate the findings using orthogonal approaches, or provide a more rigorous quantitative assessment of the findings, as highlighted in the recommendation for authors. 

      We thank the Reviewer for the recognition of our study and apologize for the inaccuracies previously. We also greatly appreciate the efforts the reviewer went through with his/her support and help for the improvement of our manuscript. We considerably expanded the number of experiments to support EZRIN/EGFR/AKT network in controlling mTORC1 pathway in the revised manuscript as requested by the Reviewer. We hope the new version of our manuscript will satisfy the Reviewer’s worries.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for The Authors):

      Major comments: 

      (1) While the authors show that, in the absence of Ezrin, TSC accumulates on the lysosome and suppresses mTORC1 signaling, they should perform additional genetic experiments to strengthen their conclusions. Can they knockout or knockdown TSC1/2 in Ezrin-deficient cells to rescue mTORC1 activity? Can they mutate the lysosomal localization signal on TSC1 (TSC1Q149E/R204E/K238E) in Ezrin-deficient cells to rescue mTORC1 activity? Does constitutively active AKT (myr-AKT or AKT-E40K) restore mTORC1 activity in Ezrin-deficient cells? 

      We agree with the Reviewer that it is an important concern that helped us to improve the quality of the data presented. We now provide in the revised version of Figure supplement 4F the results of pharmacological inhibition of Ezrin on MEF-TSC2 KO cells. In line with our findings, the lack of TSC2 is able to rescue mTORC1 signaling in absence of Ezrin activity. Thus, these data strongly support that Ezrin is required for TORC1pathway via TSC complex targeting.

      (2) In the absence of Ezrin, TSC1 constitutively localizes on the lysosome and suppresses mTORC1. Does this suppression hold in the presence of other mTORC1-activating signals (i.e., amino acids, insulin, oxygen)? 

      Following the reviewer’s suggestion we now provide this information in the revised Figure 6C, in which we showed that stimulation with insulin does not exert its activating effect on mTORC1 signaling (i.e. phosphorylation of pP70 S6 - pT389). These new data, together with the experiments on MEF TSC2 KO cells, clearly support the model by which Ezrin works as a scaffold protein connecting ATK signaling to TSC complex. The lack of Ezrin induces a disconnection between AKT and TSC complex, which is translocated on lysosomes and insensitive to inhibition of AKT signaling.

      (3) In Figure 3A, the authors showed EGFR dimerization through a western blot of a crosslinking assay. However, the western blot data are unclear and do not strongly support their statement. Additionally, the authors mentioned that the dimerization is confirmed by immunofluorescence analysis, but this statement should be revised since the imaging analysis only indirectly shows the copresence of EZR and EGFR, not necessarily the dimerized EGFR. The authors should perform additional experiments to strengthen their claim or tone down their statements in the text and model figure. 

      We certainly agree with the Reviewer on the importance of this issue and now we have fixed this inaccuracy in the revised manuscript. The blots of crosslinking were changed for better exposed images in revised Figure 3, panel A. Moreover, we also properly quantified signals to support our conclusion.

      (4) It is interesting that Ezrin binds EGFR, AKT, and TSC as a scaffolding protein. To define the mechanisms by which Ezrin interacts with AKT, EGFR, and TSC, can the authors perform domain analyses to determine which regions of Ezrin are required for its binding with AKT, EGFR, and TSC in mediating EGFR-AKT-TSC-mTORC1 signaling? 

      We thank the Reviewer for his/her comment that improves our manuscript. Conducting domain analysis in the lab would be ideal, although this seems to us a long tour de force that might be associated to several technical and experimental issues. However, in silico approaches provide a helpful alternative for generating initial hypotheses about domain-domain interactions, though they should be seen as a starting point rather than a complete solution. Recent advances in fold prediction suggest that AlphaFold3 could be used to predict dimer formation and, consequently, domain-domain interactions. However, such an approach is challenging in this case because some of the considered proteins are transmembrane, and all are prone to form multimeric complexes with multiple partners, making them poor candidates for reliable fold predictions. In fact, the predicted dimers are poorly supported, and AlphaFold3 lacks confidence in the relative positioning of interactors, limiting its interpretability. Alternatively, database mining and machine-learning methods, such as HINT, Domine, and PPIDomainMiner, provide more robust evidence. Indeed, these tools allow us to consistently identify a strong interaction between Ezrin's FERM central domain and EGFR's PK domain shown now in the Figure Supplement 2C and Supplement Figure 3C-H. Importantly, these findings generate valuable hypotheses, therefore experimental validation is still necessary. But we prefer to leave it for future studies.

      Minor Comments: 

      (1) There are several immunoblots that did not have adequate controls:  - In Figure 2D, an input lane should be shown for each of the cell lysates to demonstrate the presence of other proteins in the cell lysate used for the IP.

      We have now fixed this inaccuracy in the revised manuscript.

      - Figure 3A does not have a loading control. Also, immunoblot quality should be significantly improved.

      We have now fixed this inaccuracy in the revised manuscript.

      - The HER2 western blot in Figure 5C does not accurately represent the data shown in the quantification graph.

      We have now fixed this inaccuracy by replacing HER2 western blot in the revised Figure 5C.

      - In Figure 6A, the authors should include an input as a control for the IP. To further support their claim in the model figure, can the authors also probe the IP lysate for Ezrin and Tsc2? If all are indeed in a complex together, they should be present. 

      Following this Reviewer’s observation, we add the input as control in the IP in the revised Figure 6A. Moreover, we include the immunoprecipitation data for the EZRIN and TSC2 interaction, accordingly (Figure 6A).

      - Phosphorylation sites across figures should be uniformly annotated for consistency and ease of understanding, e.g., pTSC2(S939), pS6K1(T389), and pAKT(S473).

      We have now fixed this inaccuracy in the revised text.

      (2) There are several microscopy data that lack adequate quantification. For instance, Figures 2E, 2F, 3C, 4A, 5A, and 6F only show very few cells as representative images, which is not sufficient to support their claims. 

      We thank the Reviewer for his/her comment that improves our manuscript. Accordingly, we add adequate quantification and statistical analysis in the revised Figures, accordingly.

      (3) Some suggestions to improve the readability of the manuscript: 

      -  In the abstract (line 32): "Loss of Ezrin was deficient in TSC repression by EGF and culminated in translocation of TSC to lysosomes triggering suppression of mTORC1 signaling." The wording is somewhat confusing, please change such as "Loss of Ezrin was not sufficient to repress TSC by EGF and culminated..." or "Loss of Ezrin blunted EGF-induced TSC suppression and culminated..." 

      We apologize for the lack of clarity and now we have fixed this inaccuracy by better elucidating this aspect in the revised manuscript.

      -  Figure 3D has a typo in the western blot labeling. Please change Citosol to Cytosol. 

      We have now fixed this inaccuracy in the revised text.

      -  Line 291: "Moreover, TSC2 resulted activated and AKT/mTOR signaling..." The wording is confusing. 

      We have now fixed this inaccuracy in the revised text. The text now reads: “Moreover, we found that TSC2 was dephosphorylated  in response to light in the retina, when inactive Ezrin (Naso et al., 2020) and EGFR are weakly expressed (Figure supplement 6C) as a consequence of a decrease of the AKT/mTORC1 signaling…..)

      -  The model in Figure 8 indicates that upon EGF stimulation, the activated Ezrin interacts with EGFR, causing its dissociation from actin filaments and leading to its endosome incorporation. However, the authors did not provide supporting data for this claim. Can the authors either cite literature or provide data for this? Otherwise, the model should be edited to remove actin filaments in the model. 

      We have now fixed this inaccuracy by removing actin filaments in the revised model.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The data and written text seem to deal entirely with mTORC1, rather than mTORC2, thus it seems "mTOR" should be changed to "mTORC1" throughout. 

      We have now fixed this inaccuracy in the revised manuscript.

      For clarification, the TSC protein complex should be referred to as the "TSC complex", whereas "TSC" generally refers to the tumor syndrome Tuberous Sclerosis Complex.

      We have now fixed this inaccuracy in the revised manuscript.

      Quantification of colocalization would be helpful in all the panels where it is currently missing.

      We thank the Reviewer for his/her comment that improves our manuscript. Accordingly, we add adequate quantification of colocalization for each immunofluorescence in the revised Figures, accordingly.

      Line 84 typo "thorough" should be "through" 

      We have now fixed this inaccuracy in the revised manuscript.

      Line 178 - typo 

      We have now fixed this inaccuracy in the revised manuscript.

      Line 209 - typo 

      We have now fixed this inaccuracy in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Fig. 1 The data showing an increase in lysosomal biogenesis suggests an increase in transcriptional activity. This should be confirmed by one or more of the following: 1) Increased TFEB/TFE3 nuclear localization following EZR loss, 2) Increased CLEAR promoter luciferase activity assays, 3) Increased expression of multiple CLEAR transcripts (https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1174447) or 4) Increased TFEB/ TFE3/ CLEAR gene signatures by RNA seq. Similarly, data showing increased autophagic flux should be confirmed in the presence of chloroquine or bafilomycin. 

      We agree with the Reviewer that it is an important concern that helped us to improve the quality of the data presented. It is well established that a major mechanism regulating TFEB activity is represented by the nuclear translocation. We have now carried out new experiments demonstrating that depletion of Ezrin induces TFEB nuclear translocation in Ezrin<sup>-/-</sup> cells. These findings are in line with our previous data in which pharmacological inhibition and silencing of Ezrin induced the same cellular phenotype. We also apologize because we have created some confusion, because we already carried out experiments with Bafilomycin to confirm the increase of autophagic flux. Therefore, the blots of autophagic flux were changed for better exposed images in revised Figure supplement 1H and the text was modified to emphasize these findings, accordingly.

      Fig 2D, the lanes with EZR -/- cells expressing the EZR mutants should be repeated on the same gel as the first 2 lanes (with the WT and EZR<sup>-/-</sup> cells) 

      We thank the Reviewer for his/her comment that improves our manuscript. In order to avoid any confusion, when describing the results in Figure 2D, we have now modified the Figure 2D, providing the required controls in the response to Reviewer #1 and #2. We hope the new version of our data will satisfy the Reviewer’s worries.

      Fig 2F- The presence of reduced EGFR in intracellular compartments in Ezrin KO/ -/- cells should be quantified, and shown for a 2nd EZR null cell line as well (Ezrin null MEFs) 

      We added EGFR quantification in Figure 2F. We have now carried out new experiments demonstrating that EGFR is localized on cytoplasmic membrane in MEF Ezrin KO (Figure supplement 2H), accordingly. 

      Fig 2G, did the authors test the effects of EZR depletion on basal and EGF stimulated EGFR autophosphorylation on Y1068 and Y1045 as well as downstream activation of p42/44 ERK MAPK?  Those should be tested in the HeLa system as well as the MEFs cells with EZR KO. 

      Following the Reviewer’s request, we have now added western blot data for EGFR autophosphorylation on Y1068 and p42/44 ERK MAPK in Figure 5C. Moreover, we have now added western blot data for p42/44 ERK MAPK on MEF cells in Figure supplement 2F. In contrast, we cannot provide any data for EGFR autophosphorylation on Y1068, because the antibody was not working on proteins from MEF cells.

      Also, why would HER3 levels be expected to decrease? There seems to be minimal change in HER3 expression. Also, the significance of increased MK2 phosphorylation should be further elaborated. 

      The Reviewer raised justified concerns about the HER3 and MK2. We have discussed these aspects in the "results section”, accordingly. 

      Fig 3A- Crosslinking of EGFR is not very apparent in this blot. The crosslinking blots should be repeated 3 times and quantified. 

      We certainly agree with the Reviewer on the importance of this issue and now we have fixed this inaccuracy in the revised manuscript. The blots of crosslinking were changed for better exposed images in revised Figure 3, panel A. Moreover, we also properly quantified signals to support our conclusion.

      Fig 3D- How were membrane endosomes isolated? This should be stated in the methods. Membrane/ Cytosol and Endosome fractionation showing EGFR levels should be shown in Ezrin null MEFs as well, and membrane expression should be further substantiated with surface biotinylation for cell surface EGFR. 

      We now report more information about the method that we used for membrane endosomes isolation in the Materials and Methods section. Following the Reviewer’s request, we also show that EGFR was not localized on endosomes upon EGF on Ezrin null MEFs. This data was reported in the new revised Figure Supplement 2G. Moreover, we have now carried out new experiments demonstrating the membrane localization of EGFR in MEF Ezrin KO cells. These findings are shown in Figure supplement 2H.

      Fig 5C: Similar to 2G, EGFR autophosphorylation on Y1068 and Y1045 should also be measured, as well as downstream activation of p42/44 ERK MAPK? 

      Following the Reviewer’s request, we have now carried out new experiments to assess the EGFR autophosphorylation on Y1068 and Y1045, as well as downstream activation of p42/44 ERK MAPK.  We added these new data in the revised Figure 5C, accordingly. 

      Fig 5D: Similar to 3D, Membrane/ Cytosol and Endosome fractionation showing EGFR levels should be shown in Ezrin null MEFs as well, and further substantiated with surface biotinylation for cell surface EGFR. 

      Following the Reviewer’s request, we show that EGFR was not localized on endosomes upon EGF (Figure Supplement 2G). 

      Supplement 2E: The blots show lower expression of EGFR and higher MAPK activation in EZR KO cells, contradicting the data in the other cells. 

      We apologize because we have created some confusion. It occurred during the preparation of Figure supplement 2E, reflecting image of a previous not finalized version of the Figure. We have now removed the error and replaced with a correct WB panel.

      Supplement 2F: The authors should repeat the NSC668394 experiment using: 1) multiple doses, 2) In both the Ezrin KO and null cell lines 3) and repeat 3X to quantify differences in total EGFR. 

      We respectfully disagree with the Reviewer and feel that addressing this point by additional studies on dose response of NSC668394, as the Reviewer suggests, is outside the scope of this manuscript. However, we would like to point out that we have already conducted extensive studies on the doseresponse effects of NSC668394 administration in vitro (Patent: WO2020070333A1). 

      Moreover, we apologize for not having provided enough information about the number of biological independent replicates for WB analyses. Therefore, to fill this gap of information we have expanded the Material and Methods section, accordingly.

      Patent: WO2020070333A1 - Ezrin inhibitors and uses thereof

      Fig 6A: The IP experiments should be repeated with Control IgG 

      We have now fixed this inaccuracy in the revised manuscript.

      Typos: 

      (1) Figure 3D: Citosol 

      We have now fixed this inaccuracy in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Line 216-217: "increased EGFR protein 217 levels on purified membranes and endosomes (Figure 3D and E)" - That should be decreased EGFR on endosomes in accordance with Figure 3D (lower panels) 

      We have now fixed this inaccuracy in the revised manuscript.

      (3) Abstract: "Consistently, Medaka fish deficient for Ezrin exhibit defective endo-lysosomal pathway" 

      We have now fixed this inaccuracy in the revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Shen et al. conducted three experiments to study the cortical tracking of the natural rhythms involved in biological motion (BM), and whether these involve audiovisual integration (AVI). They presented participants with visual (dot) motion and/or the sound of a walking person. They found that EEG activity tracks the step rhythm, as well as the gait (2-step cycle) rhythm. The gait rhythm specifically is tracked superadditively (power for A+V condition is higher than the sum of the A-only and V-only condition,

      Experiments 1a/b), which is independent of the specific step frequency (Experiment 1b). Furthermore, audiovisual integration during tracking of gait was specific to BM, as it was absent (that is, the audiovisual congruency effect) when the walking dot motion was vertically inverted (Experiment 2). Finally, the study shows that an individual's autistic traits are negatively correlated with the BM-AVI congruency effect.

      Strengths:

      The three experiments are well designed and the various conditions are well controlled. The rationale of the study is clear, and the manuscript is pleasant to read. The analysis choices are easy to follow, and mostly appropriate.

      Weaknesses:

      On revision, the authors are careful not to overinterpret an analysis where the statistical test is not independent from the data (channel) selection criterion.

      Thanks for the suggestion and we have done this according to your recommendations below.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Re: the double-dipping concern: I appreciate the revision. Just to clarify: my concern rests with the selection of *electrodes* based on the interaction test for the 1Hz condition. The 2Hz condition analogous test yields no significant electrodes. You perform subsequent tests (t-tests and 3-way interaction) on the data averaged across the electrodes that were significant for the 1Hz condition. Therefore, these tests will be biased to find a pattern reflecting an interaction at 1Hz, while no similar bias exists for an effect at 2Hz. Therefore, there is a bias to observe a 3-way interaction, and simple effects compatible with a 2-way interaction only for 1Hz, not for 2Hz (which is exactly what you found). There is no good statistical alternative here, I appreciate that, but the bias exists nonetheless. I think the wording is improved in this revision, and the evidence is convincing even in light of this bias.

      We are grateful for your thoughtful comments on the analytical methods. We appreciate your concerns regarding the potential bias of examining 3-way interaction based on electrodes yielding a 2-way interaction effect. To address this issue, we have conducted a bias-free analysis based on electrodes across the whole brain. The results showed a similar pattern of 3-way interaction as previously reported (p = 0.051), suggesting that the previous findings might not be caused by electrode selection. Given that the main results of Experiment 2 were not based on whole-brain analysis, we did not involve this analysis in the main text, and we have removed the three-way interaction results based on selected electrodes from the manuscript to reduce potential concerns. It is also noteworthy that, when performing analyses based on channels independent of the interaction effect at 1 Hz (i.e., significant congruency effects in the upright and inverted conditions, respectively, at 2Hz), we got similar results as reported in the main text (i.e., non-significant interaction and correlation at 2 Hz). These results were presented in the supplementary file in previous versions and mentioned in the correlation part of the Results section (see Fig. S2). Once again, we sincerely appreciate your careful review of our research. We hope the abovementioned points adequately address your concern.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors evaluate spectral changes in electroencephalography (EEG) data as a function of the congruency of audio and visual information associated with biological motion (BM) or non-biological motion. The results show supra-additive power gains in the neural response to gait dynamics, with trials in which audio and visual information was presented simultaneously producing higher average amplitude than the combined average power for auditory and visual conditions alone. Further analyses suggest that such supra-additivity is specific to BM and emerges from temporoparietal areas. The authors also find that the BM-specific supra-additivity is negatively correlated with autism traits.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is well-written, with a concise and clear writing style. The visual presentation is largely clear. The study involves multiple experiments with different participant groups. Each experiment involves specific considered changes to the experimental paradigm that both replicate the previous experiment's finding yet extend it in a relevant manner.

      In the first revisions of the paper, the manuscript better relays the results and anticipates analyses, and this version adequately resolves some concerns I had about analysis details. In a further revision, it is clarified better how the results relate to the various competing hypotheses on how biological motion is processed.

      Weaknesses:

      Still, it is my view that the findings of the study are basic neural correlate results that offer only minimal constraint towards the question of how the brain realizes the integration of multisensory information in the service of biological motion perception, and the data do not address the causal relevance of observed neural effects towards behavior and cognition. The presence of an inversion effect suggests that the supraadditivity is related to cognition, but that leaves open whether any detected neural pattern is actually consequential for multi-sensory integration (i.e., correlation is not causation). In other words, the fact that frequency-specific neural responses to the [audio & visual] condition are stronger than those to [audio] and [visual] combined does not mean this has implications for behavioral performance. While the correlation to autism traits could suggest some relation to behavior and is interesting in its own right, this correlation is a highly indirect way of assessing behavioral relevance. It would be helpful to test the relevance of supra-additive cortical tracking on a behavioral task directly related to the processing of biological motion to justify the claim that inputs are being integrated in the service of behavior. Under either framework, cortical tracking or entrainment, the causal relevance of neural findings toward cognition is lacking.

      Overall, I believe this study finds neural correlates of biological motion that offer some constraint toward mechanism, and it is possible that the effects are behaviorally relevant, but based on the current task and associated analyses this has not been shown (or could not have been, given the paradigm).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Thank you for your revisions; I have updated the Strengths section, and reworded the weaknesses section. I now concede that the neural effects observed offer some constraint towards what the neural mechanisms for AV integration for BM are, whereas in my previous review, I said too strongly that these results do not offer any information about mechanism.

      Thank you again for your insightful thoughts and comments on our research. They have contributed greatly to enhancing the discussion of the article and provided valuable inspiration for future exploration of causal mechanisms.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper investigates the mechanism of axon growth directed by the conserved guidance cue UNC-6/Netrin. Experiments were designed to distinguish between alternative models in which UNC-6/Netrin functions as either a short-range (haptotactic) cue or a diffusible (chemotactic) signal that steers axons to their final destinations. In each case, axonal growth cones execute ventrally directed outgrowth toward a proximal source of UNC-6/Netrin. This work concludes that UNC-6/Netrin functions as both a haptotactic and chemotactic cue to polarize the UNC-40/DCC receptor on the growth cone membrane facing the direction of growth. Ventrally directed axons initially contact a minor longitudinal nerve tract (vSLNC) at which UNC-6/Netrin appears to be concentrated before proceeding in the direction of the ventral nerve cord (VNC) from which UNC-6/Netrin is secreted. Time-lapse imaging revealed that growth cones appear to pause at the vSLNC before actively extending ventrally directed filopodia that eventually contact the VNC. Growth cone contacts with the vSLNC were unstable in unc-6 mutants but were restored by the expression of a membrane-tethered UNC-6 in vSLNC neurons. In addition, the expression of membrane-tethered UNC-6/Netrin in the VNC was not sufficient to rescue initial ventral outgrowth in an unc-6 mutant. Finally, dual expression of membrane-tethered UNC-6/Netrin in both vSLNC and VNC partially rescued the unc-6 mutant axon guidance defect, thus suggesting that diffusible UNC-6 is also required. This work is important because it potentially resolves the controversial question of how UNC-6/Netrin directs axon guidance by proposing a model in which both of the competing mechanisms, e.g., haptotaxis vs chemotaxis, are successively employed. The impact of this work is bolstered by its use of powerful imaging and genetic methods to test models of UNC-6/Netrin function in vivo thereby obviating potential artifacts arising from in vitro analysis.

      Strengths:

      A strength of this approach is the adoption of the model organism C. elegans to exploit its ready accessibility to live cell imaging and powerful methods for genetic analysis.

      Weaknesses:

      A membrane-tethered version of UNC-6/Netrin was constructed to test its haptotactic role, but its neuron-specific expression and membrane localization are not directly determined although this should be technically feasible. Time-lapse imaging is a key strength of multiple experiments but only one movie is provided for readers to review.

      Thank you for your comments. We have now used SNAP labeling to directly visualize the localization of membrane tethered UNC-6 and confirmed UNC-6 is only detectable on the sublateral and ventral nerve cords (Figure S3A). These data have been added to the manuscript on page 15, lines 342-347. We have also provided a representative movie for each imaged genotype (Videos S2-10).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Nichols et al studied the role of axon guidance molecules and their receptors and how these work as long-range and/or local cues, using in-vivo time-lapse imaging in C. elegans. They found that the Netrin axon guidance system works in different modes when acting as a long-range (chemotaxis) cue vs local cue (haptotaxis). As an initial context, they take advantage of the postembryonic-born neuron, PDE, to understand how its axon grows and then is guided into its target. They found that this process occurs in various discrete steps, during which the growth cone migrates and pauses at specific structures, such as the vSLNC. The role of the UNC-6/Netrin and UNC-40/DCC axon guidance ligand-receptor pair was then looked at in terms of its requirement for

      (1) initial axon outgrowth direction

      (2) stabilization at the intermediate target

      (3) directional branching from the sublateral region or

      (4) ventral growth from the intermediate target to the VNC.

      They found that each step is disrupted in the unc-6/Netrin and unc-40/DCC mutants and observed how the localization of these proteins changed during the process of axon guidance in wild-type and mutant contexts. These observations were further supported by analysis of a mutant important for the regulation of Netrin signaling, the E3 ubiquitin ligase madd-2/Trim9/Trim67. Remarkably, the authors identified that this mutant affected axonal adhesion and stabilization, but not directional growth. Using membrane-tethered UNC-6 to specific localities, they then found this to be a consequence of the availability of UNC-6 at specific localities within the axon growth path. Altogether, this data and in-vivo analysis provide compelling evidence of the mechanistic foundation of Netrin-mediated axon guidance and how it works step by step.

      The conclusions are well-supported, with both imaging and quantification of each step of axon guidance and localization of UNC-6 and UNC-40. Using a different type of neuron to validate their findings further supports their conclusions and strengthens their model. It's not yet known whether this model holds true for other ligand-receptor pairs, but the current work sets the stage for future analysis of other axon guidance molecules using time-lapse in-vivo imaging. There are still two outstanding questions that are important to address to support the authors' model and conclusions.

      (1) The results of UNC-6-TM expression at different locations are clear and support the conclusions but need to consider that there's no diffusible UNC-6 available. What would happen if UNC-6 is tethered to the membrane in an otherwise completely 'normal' UNC-6 gradient. Does the axon guidance ensue normally or does it get stuck in the respective site of the membrane tethered-UNC-6 and doesn't continue to outgrow properly? This is an important control (expression of the UNC-6-TM at the vSLNC or VNC in the wild type background) that would help clarify this question and gain a better insight into the separability of both axon guidance steps and the ability to manipulate these.

      Thank you for your comments. We expressed UNC-6<SUP>TM</SUP> at vSLNC and VNC in wild-type animals and examined adult morphology of both HSN and PDE in the control conditions you suggested. These data are available in Tables 1 and 2 with no statistical differences compared to wildtype animals. Second, we also provide still images of developing PDE axons near the vSLNC (Figure S3D) to confirm that this axon guidance step is intact when UNC-6<SUP>TM</SUP> is overexpressed in specific regions. Together, these data suggest that the TM rescue constructs do not interfere with endogenous axon guidance pathways. We have added these results to the manuscript on page 15, lines 347-349.

      (2) Axon guidance systems do not work in a vacuum and are generally competing against each other. For example, the SLT-1/Slit and SAX-3/ROBO axon guidance ligand-receptor pair is also required for PDE, and other post-embryonic neurons, axon guidance. It would be interesting to test mutants for these genes with the membrane tethered-UNC-6 to determine if the different steps of axon guidance are disrupted and if so, to what degree these are disrupted.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We have performed time-lapse imaging on slt-1 mutants and unc-6; slt-1 double mutants. These data are available in a new figure, Figure 3. Indeed, we found that slt-1 mutants showed abnormal direction of axon emergence and stabilization at the VNC but normal stabilization at vsLNC and axonal branching (Fig.3). These data can be found in the manuscript from pages 11-12, lines 248-269.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript from Nichols, Lee, and Shen tackles an important question of how unc6/netrin promotes axon guidance: i.e. haptotaxis vs chemotaxis. This has recently been a large topic of investigation and discussion in the axon guidance field. Using live cell imaging of unc6/netrin and unc40/DCC in several neurons that extend axons ventrally during development, as well as TM localized mutants of Unc6, they suggest that unc6 promotes first haptotaxis of the emerging growth cone followed by chemotaxis of the growth cone. This is timely, as a recent preprint from the Lundquist group, using a similar strategy to make only a TM anchored unc6 similarly found that this could rescue only the haptotaxis-like growth of the PDE neuron, but not the second phase of growth. However, their conclusions were quite different based on the overexpression of unc6 everywhere rescuing the second phase, and thus they conclude that a gradient is not present.

      Strengths:

      As this has been quite a controversy in both the invertebrate and vertebrate field, one strength of this paper is that they use an unc6-neon green to demonstrate unc6 localization, and show a gradient of localization.

      Weaknesses:

      This is important, although it could be strengthened by first showing a more zoomed-out image of unc6 in the animal, and second demonstrating the localization of the transmembrane anchored unc6 mutants, to help define what may be the "diffusible Unc6".

      Thank you for your comments. We have performed both of these experiments. In Figure 6A, we provide a zoomed out image of PDE growth cone interacting with UNC-6::mNG prior to reaching the vSLNC. Notably, we do not observe an obvious gradient that extends into this more dorsal region of the animal. We have also shown the membrane localization of UNC-6<sup>TM</sup> through SNAP labeling in Figure S3A. These data have been added to the manuscript on page 15, lines 342-347.

      I suggest two additional experimental or analysis suggestions: First, the authors clarify the phenotype of ventral emergence of the growth cone. Though the manuscript images suggest that no matter the mutant there is ventral emergence of the growth cone, but then later defects, yet they claim ventral emergence defects with the UNC6 tethered mutants, but there is no comparison of rose plots. This is confusing and needs to be addressed.

      Thank you for your comment. We have now included images (i.e. slt-1(eh15) and unc-6(ev400); slt-1(eh15) genotypes in Figure 3) and movies showing misoriented axon emergence. We have also provided an additional quantification that allows for statistical comparison of emergence angle across genotypes. This quantification takes the sine function of the angle to quantify the relative emergence trajectory across the dorsal-ventral axis. A value of 1 indicates 90° dorsal emergence, and -1 indicates 90° ventral emergence. Statistical comparisons across genotypes demonstrate that axons in both unc-6 and slt-1 mutants are misoriented relative to wild-type axons. These comparisons can be found in Figures S1B, 3C, S2B, S3C.

      Second, I have concerns that the analysis of unc40 polarization may be misleading in some cases when there appears to indeed be accumulation in the growth cone, but since the only analysis shown is relative to the rest of the cell, that can be lost.

      Thank you for sharing your concerns about the UNC-40 polarization quantifications. We have separately compared the value of the integrated density of UNC-40::GFP in each cellular domain (vSLNC-contacting area and the dorsal soma) between genotypes. While we did not include these comparisons in the original manuscript, we have now included them in the revised manuscript. Overall, these data support our conclusions that UNC-40 mispolarization occurs across the entire cell (Fig. S1F,G; S2E-H; S3E,F).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer 1:

      Comment 1: Within the scope of the current work there are no major weaknesses. That said, the authors themselves note pressing questions beyond the scope of this study that remain unanswered. For instance, the mechanistic nature of the interactions between FMO-4 and the other players in this story, for example in terms of direct protein-protein interactions, is not at all understood yet.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive review, and fully agree and acknowledge that there are unanswered questions for future studies that are beyond the scope of this manuscript.

      Reviewer 2:

      Comment 1: The effects of carbachol and EDTA on intracellular calcium levels are inferred, especially in the tissues where fmo-4 is acting. Validating that these agents and fmo-4 itself have an impact on calcium in relevant subcellular compartments is important to support conclusions on how fmo-4 regulates and responds to calcium.

      We thank the reviewer for this important suggestion. We agree that carbachol and EDTA can be broad agents and validating that they are altering calcium levels is very useful. While this is technically challenging, we attempted to address this by using neuronally expressed GCaMP7f calcium indicator worms and measuring their GFP fluorescence upon exposure to carbachol and EDTA. Assessing both short term and long term exposure to these agents, we were able to show that carbachol increases GFP fluorescence, indicating an increase in calcium levels, and EDTA decreases GFP fluorescence, indicating a decrease in calcium levels. Unfortunately, because FMO-4 is not neuronally expressed, we were not able to test the effects of FMO-4 on calcium in this strain, which would require hypodermal expression and possibly short-term modification of fmo-4 expression to test. We have made sure to temper our language about the indirect measures we used.

      Comment 2: Experiments are generally reliant on RNAi. While in most cases experiments reveal positive results, indicating RNAi efficacy, key conclusions could be strengthened with the incorporation of mutants.

      We appreciate and value this suggestion and agree that mutants could be helpful to strengthen our conclusions. We address this caveat in the discussion of the revised manuscript. We explain that we were concerned about knocking out key calcium regulating genes like itr-1 and mcu-1 that either already result in some level of sickness in the worms when knocked down (itr-1) or could lead to confounding metabolic changes if knocked out. We do find that our RNAi lifespan results are robust and reproducible, but we also understand and recognize the caveats that come with using RNAi knockdown instead of full deletion mutants.

      Reviewer 3:

      Comment 1: no obvious transcriptomic evidence supporting a link between fmo-4 and calcium signaling: either for knockout worms or fmo-4 overexpressing strains.

      We thank the reviewer for this feedback. While there is some transcriptomic evidence, we agree that it is not overwhelming evidence. We do think that this evidence, combined with the phenotype observed under thapsigargin (i.e., significant reduction in worm size and significant delay or prevention of development), in addition to the genetic connections to calcium regulation, provide additional compelling evidence that FMO-4 interacts with calcium signaling.

      Comment 2: no direct measures of alterations in calcium flux, signalling or binding that strongly support a connection with fmo-4.

      As described in reviewer 2 comment 1, we have successfully used GCaMP7f worms to assess calcium flux upon exposure to carbachol and EDTA. This approach confirmed the changes in calcium expected from these compounds. Unfortunately, because FMO-4 is not neuronally expressed, we were not able to test the effects of FMO-4 on calcium in this strain, which would require hypodermal expression and possibly short-term modification of fmo-4 expression to test. We have made sure to temper our language about the indirect measures we used.

      Comment 3: no measures of mitochondrial morphology or activity that strongly support a connection with fmo-4.

      This is a great point, and something we are currently working on to include for a future manuscript. 

      Comment 4: lack of a complete model that places fmo-4 function downstream of DR and mTOR signalling (first Results section), fmo-2 (second Results section) and at the same time explains connection with calcium signalling.

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful feedback. We have included a more complete working model in our revision.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer 1:

      Comment 1: "We utilized fmo-4 (ok294) knockout (KO) animals on five conditions reported to extend lifespan in C. elegans." Here I believe "fmo-4 (ok294)" should be "fmo-4(ok294)". (No space).

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful revision. We have made this change as suggested.

      Comment 2: "Wild-type (WT) worms on DR experience a ~35% lifespan extension compared to fed WT worms, but when fmo-4 is knocked out this extension is reduced to ~10% and this interaction is significant by cox regression (p-value < 4.50e-6)." Here "cox regression" should be "Cox regression".

      We have made this change as suggested.

      Comment 3: "Having established this role, we continued lifespan analyses of fmo-4 KO worms exposed to RNAi knockdown of the S6-kinase gene rsks-1 (mTOR signaling), the von hippel lindau gene vhl-1 (hypoxic signaling), the insulin receptor daf-2 (insulin-like signaling), and the cytochrome c reductase gene cyc-1 (mitochondrial electron transport chain, cytochrome c reductase) (Fig 1C-F)." Here "von hippel lindau" should be "Von Hippel-Lindau".

      We have made this change as suggested.

      Comment 4: In three instances in the caption of Figure 5, the "4" in fmo-4 is not italicized when it should be.

      We have made this change as suggested.

      Comment 5: In two instances in the caption of Figure 7, the "4" in fmo-4 is not italicized when it should be, and in one instance in the caption of Figure 7, the "6" in atf-6 is not italicized when it should be.

      We have made this change as suggested.

      Comment 6: "Supplemental Data 3 provides the results of the Log-rank test and Cox regression analysis, which were run in Rstudio." Here Rstudio should be RStudio.

      We have made this change as suggested.

      Comment 7: In the references, within article titles italicization (e.g. of Caenorhabditis elegans) is frequently missing. While this is often an artifact introduced by reference management software, it should be corrected in the final manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for all the helpful revision suggestions. We have made sure all the references are properly italicized where necessary.

      Reviewer 2:

      Comment 1: While FMO-4 is clearly placed in the ER calcium pathway genetically, the molecular mechanism by which FMO-4 would alter ER calcium is unclear. Notably, Tuckowski et al. highlight this gap in the discussion as well.

      We thank the reviewer for identifying this important caveat. We hope to address the molecular mechanism by which FMO-4 alters ER calcium in upcoming projects.

      Comment 2: Determining whether overexpression of catalytically dead FMO-4 or introduction of an inactivating point mutant into the endogenous locus phenocopy FMO-4 OE and KO animals would help distinguish between mechanisms involving protein-protein interactions or downstream metabolic regulation.

      We thank the reviewer for this valuable suggestion. This is an experiment we are hoping to do in the near future to better understand molecular mechanisms and protein-protein interactions.

      Reviewer 3:

      Comment 1: When measuring the effect of thapsigargin on development of fmo-4 mutants it would be great to use a developmental assay rather than quantifying normalized worm area. Also please add scale bars to Figure 3G and 4H, it seems that fmo-4 overexpression decreases worm size even in control conditions, clarify if this is the case.

      We thank the reviewer for this feedback. In addition to quantifying normalized worm area in Figure 3G-I, we have added a developmental assay (Figure 3J) that shows the development time of wild-type worms on DMSO or thapsigargin as well as the fmo-4 OE worms on DMSO or thapsigargin. These data validate that the fmo-4 OE worm development is either delayed significantly or even prevented when the worms are treated with thapsigargin.

      We have added scale bars to Figure 3G and 4H as suggested.

      We also appreciate the reviewer’s observation of the fmo-4 overexpression worms appearing smaller than wild-type worms in control conditions. We looked through the replicates and found that just one replicate showed a significant decrease in worm size, as observed in our unrevised manuscript. We repeated this experiment twice more to gather more data and determined that the fmo-4 overexpression worms were ultimately not significantly different in size compared to wild-type worms. We have included the new images and quantifications in Figure 3G-I and Figure 4H-J in the revised manuscript.

      Comment 2: correct or replace Supplementary Table 2, which is not showing a DAVID analysis as the title and text would suggest. We should see biological/molecular processes, effect sizes, p-values, ...

      We thank the reviewer for identifying this issue. We have added more detail to the Supplementary Table 2 so that it is clearer what is being shown in each tab.

      Comment 3: clarify the data presented in Supplementary Data 2 because it does not clearly explain what is shown

      This is a great point, and we have added more detail to the Supplementary Data 2 to make sure the data are more clearly explained in each tab.

      Comment 4: in Figure 5B the fluorescent images do not seem to reflect the quantification in panel 5C.

      Thank you for this feedback. We re-analyzed our data to make sure the proper fluorescent images are included with their matching quantifications in Figure 5B-C.

      Comment 5: where is Supplementary Data 3?

      We thank the reviewer for noticing this. Supplementary Data 3 was accidentally missing from the first submission, and has now been added.

      Comment 6: conceptually the last results section (regarding atf-6) does not add much to the story, I would consider removing these results

      We appreciate this feedback. We have decided to keep Figure 7 because we think it helps to validate fmo-4’s role in calcium movement from the ER. While we show genetic interactions between fmo-4 and key genes involved in calcium regulation (crt-1, itr-1, and mcu-1), we think that showing how fmo-4 also interacts with atf-6, a known regulator of calcium homeostasis, strengthens and supports the genetic mechanisms of fmo-4 proposed in this manuscript.

      Comment 7: the model proposed in Figure 7E is not convincingly supported by the results:<br /> o the arrows connecting atf-6, fmo-4 and crt-1 (calreticulin) suggest that fmo-4 is downstream of atf-6 and upstream of crt-1: Berkowitz 2020 showed that atf-6 knockdown downregulates calreticulin, so unless the authors show that this downregulation is mediated directly by fmo-4, the more likely explanation is that atf-6 knockdown affects calcium levels which in turn induces fmo-4 expression.

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful feedback. We have addressed this by updating our proposed model. We used a solid arrow leading from the reduction of atf-6 to induction of fmo-4, as this is supported by our data in Figure 7A-B. We then used dashed arrows between fmo-4 and crt-1 as well as between atf-6 and crt-1 to indicate that more data is needed to clarify this part of the pathway.

      Comment 8: Avoid pointing at a mitochondrial connection in the title as the only evidence supporting this interaction comes from the mcu-1 RNAi epistasis.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion. We added another piece of evidence suggesting an interaction between fmo-4 and the mitochondria to Supplementary Figure 7G-H. Here we show that while fmo-4 OE worms are resistant to paraquat stress, knocking down vdac-1 (a calcium regulator located in the outer mitochondrial membrane), abrogates this effect. We have kept mitochondria in our title but have made sure to temper our language in the main text to avoid pointing to a strong mitochondrial connection, since we have two pieces of evidence connecting fmo-4 to the mitochondria.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):  

      Hüppe and colleagues had already developed an apparatus and an analytical approach to capture swimming activity rhythms in krill. In a previous manuscript they explained the system, and here they employ it to show a circadian clock, supplemented by exogenous light, produces an activity pattern consistent with "twilight" diel vertical migration (DVM; a peak at sunset, a midnight sink, and a peak in the latter half of the night). 

      They used light:dark (LD) followed by dark:dark (DD) photoperiods at two times of the year to confirm the circadian clock, coupled with DD experiments at four times of year to show rhythmicity occurs throughout the year along with DVM in the wild population. The individual activity data show variability in the rhythmic response, which is expected. However, their results showed rhythmicity was sustained in DD throughout the year, although the amplitude decayed quickly. The interpretation of a weak clock is reasonable, and they provide a convincing justification for the adaptive nature of such a clock in a species that has a wide distributional range and experiences various photic environments. These data also show that exogenous light increases the activity response and can explain the morning activity bouts, with the circadian clock explaining the evening and late-night bouts. This acknowledgement that vertical migration can be driven by multiple proximate mechanisms is important. 

      The work is rigorously done, and the interpretations are sound. I see no major weaknesses in the manuscript. Because a considerable amount of processing is required to extract and interpret the rhythmic signals (see Methods and previous AMAZE paper), it is informative to have the individual activity plots of krill as a gut check on the group data. 

      The manuscript will be useful to the field as it provides an elegant example of looking for biological rhythms in a marine planktonic organism and disentangling the exogenous response from the endogenous one. Furthermore, as high latitude environments change, understanding how important organisms like krill have the potential to respond will become increasingly important. This work provides a solid behavioral dataset to complement the earlier molecular data suggestive of a circadian clock in this species. 

      We appreciate the positive evaluation of our work by Reviewer 1, acknowledging our approach to record locomotor activity in krill as well as the importance of the findings in assessing krill’s potential to respond to environmental change in their habitat.  

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):  

      Summary: 

      This manuscript provides experimental evidence on circadian behavioural cycles in Antarctic krill. The krill were obtained directly from krill fishing vessels and the experiments were carried out on board using an advanced incubation device capable of recording activity levels over a number of days. A number of different experiments were carried out where krill were first exposed to simulated light:dark (L:D) regimes for some days followed by continuous darkness (DD). These were carried out on krill collected during late autumn and late summer. A further set of experiments was performed on krill across three different seasons (summer, autumn, winter), where incubations were all DD conditions. Activity was measured as the frequency by which an infrared beam close to the top of the incubation tube was broken over unit time. Results showed that patterns of increased and decreased activity that appeared synchronised to the LD cycle persisted during the DD period. This was interpreted as evidence of the operation of an internal (endogenous) clock. The amplitude of the behavioural cycles decreased with time in DD, which further suggests that this clock is relatively weak. The authors argued that the existence of a weak endogenous clock is an adaptation to life at high latitudes since allowing the clock to be modulated by external (exogenous) factors is an advantage when there is a high degree of seasonality. This hypothesis is further supported by seasonal DD experiments which showed that the periodicity of high and low activity levels differed between seasons. 

      Strengths 

      Although there has been a lot of field observations of various circadian type behaviour in Antarctic krill, relatively few experimental studies have been published considering this behaviour in terms of circadian patterns of activity. Krill are not a model organism and obtaining them and incubating them in suitable conditions are both difficult undertakings. Furthermore, there is a need to consider what their natural circadian rhythms are without the overinfluence of laboratory-induced artefacts. For this reason alone, the setup of the present study is ideal to consider this aspect of krill biology.

      Furthermore, the equipment developed for measuring levels of activity is well-designed and likely to minimise artefacts. 

      We would like to thank Reviewer 2 for their positive assessment of our approach to study the influence of the circadian clock on krill behavior. We are delighted, that Reviewer 2 found our mechanistic approach in understanding daily behavioral patterns of Antarctic krill using the AMAZE set-up convincing, and that the challenging circumstances of working with a polar, non-model species are acknowledged.

      Weaknesses 

      I have little criticism of the rationale for carrying out this work, nor of the experimental design. Nevertheless, the manuscript would benefit from a clearer explanation of the experimental design, particularly aimed at readers not familiar with research into circadian rhythms. Furthermore, I have a more fundamental question about the relationship between levels of activity and DVM on which I will expand below. Finally, it was unclear how the observational results made here related to the molecular aspects considered in the Discussion. 

      (1) Explanation of experimental design - I acknowledge that the format of this particular journal insists that the Results are the first section that follows the Introduction. This nevertheless presents a problem for the reader since many of the concepts and terms that would generally be in the Methods are yet to be explained to the reader. Hence, right from the start of the Results section, the reader is thrown into the detail of what happened during the LD-DD experiments without being fully aware of why this type of experiment was carried out in the first place. Even after reading the Methods, further explanation would have been helpful. Circadian cycle type research of this sort often entrains organisms to certain light cycles and then takes the light away to see if the cycle continues in complete darkness, but this critical piece of knowledge does not come until much later (e.g. lines 369372) leaving the reader guessing until this point why the authors took the approach they did. I would suggest the following (1) that more effort is made in the Introduction to explain the exact LD/DD protocols adopted (2) that a schematic figure is placed early on in the manuscript where the protocol is explained including some logical flow charts of e.g. if behavioural cycle continues in DD then internal clock exists versus if cycle does not continue in DD, the exogenous cues dominate - followed by - major decrease in cyclic amplitude = weak clock versus minor decrease = strong clock and so on 

      We would like to thank Reviewer 2 for pointing out that the experimental design and the rationale behind it are not becoming clear early in the manuscript, especially for people outside the field of chronobiology. We think that the suggestion to include a schematic figure early in the manuscript is excellent and we plan to implement this in a revised version of the manuscript.  

      (2) Activity vs kinesis - in this study, we are shown data that (i) krill have a circadian cycle - incubation experiments; (ii) that krill swarms display DVM in this region - echosounder data (although see my later point). My question here is regarding the relationship between what is being measured by the incubation experiments and the in situ swarm behaviour observations. The incubation experiments are essentially measuring the propensity of krill to swim upwards since it logs the number of times an individual (or group) break a beam towards the top of the incubation tube. I argue that krill may be still highly active in the rest of the tube but just do not swim close to the surface, so this approach may not be a good measure of "activity". Otherwise, I suggest a more correct term of what is being measured is the level of "upward kinesis". As the authors themselves note, krill are negatively buoyant and must always be active to remain pelagic. What changes over the day-night cycle is whether they decide to expend that activity on swimming upwards, downwards or remaining at the same depth. Explaining the pattern as upward kinesis then also explains by swarms move upwards during the night. Just being more active at night may not necessarily result in them swimming upwards. 

      We believe that there is a slight misunderstanding in the way that what we call “activity” is measured. The experimental columns are equipped with five detector modules, evenly distributed over the height of the column. In our analysis we count all beam breaks that are caused by upward movement, i.e. every time a detector module is triggered after a detector module at a lower position has been triggered, and not only when the top detector module is triggered. In this way, we record upward swimming movements throughout the column, and not only when the krill swims all the way to the top of the column. This still means that what we are measuring is swimming activity, caused by upward swimming. We use this measure, to deliberately separate increased swimming activity, from baseline activity (i.e. swimming which solely compensates for negative buoyancy) and inactivity (i.e. passive sinking). 

      A higher activity is thus at first interpreted as an increase in swimming activity, which in the field may result in upwards directed swimming but also could mean a horizontal increase in activity, for example representing increased foraging and feeding activity. This would explain the daily activity pattern observed under LD cycles (Fig. 2), which shows a general increase in activity during the dark phase. This nighttime increase could be used for both upward directed migration during sunset as well as horizontal directed swimming for feeding and foraging throughout the night.

      We will formulate the description of the activity metric more clearly in the revised version of the manuscript.

      (3) Molecular relevance - Although I am interested in molecular clock aspects behind these circadian rhythms, it was not made clear how the results of the present study allow any further insight into this. In lines 282 to 284, the findings of the study by Biscontin et al (2017) are discussed with regard to how TIM protein is degraded by light via the clock photreceptor CRYTOCHROME 1. This element of the Discussion would be a lot more relevant if the results of the present study were considered in terms of whether they supported or refuted this or any other molecular clock model. As it stands, this paragraph is purely background knowledge and a candidate for deletion in the interest of shortening the Discussion.  

      We agree that this part is not directly related to the data presented in the manuscript and will therefore omit this part in the revised version of the manuscript to keep the discussion concise and focused on the results. 

      Other aspects 

      (i) 'Bimodal swimming' was used in the Abstract and later in the text without the term being fully explained. I could interpret it to mean a number of things so some explanation is required before the term is introduced. 

      We thank the Reviewer for pointing this out and will provide an explanation for the term “bimodal swimming” in a revised version of the manuscript. 

      (ii) Midnight sinking - I was struck by Figure 2b with regards to the dip in activity after the initial ascent, as well as the rise in activity predawn. Cushing (1951) Biol Rev 26: 158-192 describes the different phases of a DVM common to a number of marine organisms observed in situ where there is a period of midnight sinking following the initial dusk ascent and a dawn rise prior to dawn descent. Tarling et al (2002) observe midnight sinking pattern in Calanus finmarchicus and consider whether it is a response to feeding satiation or predation avoidance (i.e. exogenous factors). Evidence from the present study indicates that midnight sinking (and potential dawn rise) behaviour could alternatively be under endogenous control to a greater or lesser degree. This is something that should certainly be mentioned in the Discussion, possibly in place of the molecular discussion element mentioned above - possibly adding to the paragraph Lines 303-319. 

      We would like to thank the Reviewer for pointing this out and agree that it would be interesting to add the idea of an endogenous control of midnight sinking to the discussion. We plan to implement this in a revised version of the manuscript. 

      (iii) Lines 200-207 - I struggled to follow this argument regarding Piccolin et al identifying a 12 h rhythm whereas the present study indicates a ~24 h rhythm. Is one contradicting the other - please make this clear. 

      In our study we found that the circadian clock drives a bimodal pattern of swimming activity in krill, meaning it controls two bouts of activity in a 24 h cycle. Piccolin et al. (2020) identified a swimming activity pattern of ~12 h (i.e. two peaks in 24 h) at the group level, which is in line with our findings at the individual level. We will revisit the mentioned section for more clarity in a revised version.   

      (iv) Although I agree that the hydroacoustic data should be included and is generally supportive of the results, I think that two further aspects should be made clear for context (a) whether there was any groundtruthing that the acoustic marks were indeed krill and not potentially some other group know to perform DVM such as myctophids (b) how representative were these patterns - I have a sense that they were heavily selected to show only ones with prominent DVM as opposed to other parts of the dataset where such a pattern was less clear - I am aware of a lot of krill research where DVM is not such a clear pattern and it is disingenuous to provide these patterns as the definitive way in which krill behaves. I ask this be made clear to the reader (note also that there is a suggestion of midnight sinking in Fig 5b on 28/2).  

      To clarify the mentioned points concerning the hydroacoustic data:

      a) As mentioned in the Methods section, only hydroacoustic data during active fishing was included in the analysis. E. superba occurs in large monospecific aggregations and the fishery is actively targeting E. superba and monitoring their catch and the proportion of non-target species continuously with cameras. Krill fishery bycatch rates are very low (0.1–0.3%, Krafft et al. 2018), and fishing operations would stop if non-target species were being caught in significant proportions at any time. Therefore, and supported by our own observations when we conducted the experiments, we argue that it is a valid assumption that the backscattering signal shown in Figure 5 is predominantly caused by E. superba. 

      b) We are aware of the fact that DVM patterns of Antarctic krill are highly variable and that normal DVM patterns do not need to be the rule (e.g. see our cited study on the plasticity of krill DVM by Bahlburg et al. 2023). The visualized data were not selected for their DVM pattern but represent the period directly preceding the sampling for behavioral experiments in four different seasons (namely S1-S4), including the day of sampling. These periods were chosen to assess the DVM behavior of krill swarms in the field in the days before and during the sampling for behavioral experiments. 

      We will include these aspects in the Methods section in a revised version of the manuscript in order to improve understanding.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors' research group had previously demonstrated the release of large multivesicular body-like structures by human colorectal cancer cells. This manuscript expands on their findings, revealing that this phenomenon is not exclusive to colorectal cancer cells but is also observed in various other cell types, including different cultured cell lines, as well as cells in the mouse kidney and liver. Furthermore, the authors argue that these large multivesicular body-like structures originate from intracellular amphisomes, which they term "amphiectosomes." These amphiectosomes release their intraluminal vesicles (ILVs) through a "torn-bag mechanism." Finally, the authors demonstrate that the ILVs of amphiectosomes are either LC3B positive or CD63 positive. This distinction implies that the ILVs either originate from amphisomes or multivesicular bodies, respectively.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript reports a potential origin of extracellular vesicle (EV) biogenesis. The reported observations are intriguing.

      Weaknesses:

      It is essential to note that the manuscript has issues with experimental designs and lacks consistency in the presented data. Here is a list of the major concerns:

      (1) The authors culture the cells in the presence of fetal bovine serum (FBS) in the culture medium. Given that FBS contains a substantial amount of EVs, this raises a significant issue, as it becomes challenging to differentiate between EVs derived from FBS and those released by the cells. This concern extends to all transmission electron microscopy (TEM) images (Figure 1, 2P-S, S5, Figure 4 P-U) and the quantification of EV numbers in Figure 3. The authors need to use an FBS-free cell culture medium.

      Although FBS indeed contains bovine EVs, however, the presence of very large multivesicular EVs (amphiectosomes) that our manuscript focuses on has never been observed and reported. For reported size distributions of EVs in FBS, please find a few relevant references below:

      PMID: 29410778, PMID: 33532042, PMID: 30940830 and PMID: 37298194

      All the above publications show that the number of lEVs > 350-500 nm is negligible in FBS. The average diameter of MV-lEVs (amphiectosomes) described in our manuscript is around 1.00-1.50 micrometer.

      Reviewer #1: These papers evaluated the effectiveness of various methods to eliminate EVs from FBS, emphasizing the challenges associated with the presence of EVs in FBS. They also caution against using FBS in EV studies due to these issues. However, I did not find a clear indication regarding the size distributions of EVs in FBS in these papers.

      Please provide accurate reference supporting the claim that 'lEVs > 350-500 nm are negligible in FBS.' The papers cited by the authors do not address this specific point.

      In the revised manuscript, we addressed the point that due to sterile filtering of FBS, it cannot contain large >0.22 µm EVs

      Our response to Reviewer #1 point 2. When we demonstrated the TEM of isolated EVs, we consistently used serum- free conditioned medium (Fig2 P-S, Fig2S5 J, O) as described previously (Németh et al 2021, PMID: 34665280).

      Reviewer #1: This is an important point that is not mentioned in the original main text, figure legend or method. Please address.

      We agree and we apologize for it. We added this information to the revised manuscript.

      Our response to Reviewer #1 point 3. Our TEM images show cells captured in the process of budding and scission of large multivesicular EVs excluding the possibility that these structures could have originated from FBS.

      Reviewer #1: These images may also depict the engulfment of EVs in FBS. Hence, it is crucial to utilize EV-free or EV-depleted FBS.

      As we mentioned earlier, we added the information to the revised manuscript that sterile filtering of the FBS presumably removed particles >0.22 µm EVs

      Our response to Reviewer #1 point 4. In addition, in our confocal analysis, we studied Palm-GFP positive, cell-line derived MV-lEVs. Importantly, in these experiments, FBS-derived EVs are non-fluorescent, therefore, the distinction between GFP positive MV-lEVs and FBS-derived EVs was evident.

      Reviewer #1: I agree that these fluorescent-labeled assays conclusively indicate that the MV-lEVs are originating from the cells. However, the images of concerns are the non- fluorescent-labeled images in (Figure 1, 2P-S, S5, Figure 4 P-U and Figure 3). The MV-lEVs may derive from both the cells and FBS.

      Please see above our response to points 1-3.

      Our response to Reviewer #1 point 5. In addition, culturing cells in FBS-free medium (serum starvation) significantly affects autophagy. Given that in our study, we focused on autophagy related amphiectosome secretion, we intentionally chose to use FBS supplemented medium.

      Reviewer #1 If this is a concern, the authors should use EV-depletive FBS.

      As we discussed above, sterile filtration of FBS removes particles >0.22 µm. In addition, based on our preliminary experiments, EV-depleted serum may effect cell physiology. 

      Our response to Reviewer #1 point 6. Even though the authors of this manuscript are not familiar with the technological details how FBS is processed before commercialization, it is reasonable to assume that the samples are subjected to sterile filtration (through a 0.22 micron filter) after which MV-lEVs cannot be present in the commercial FBS samples.

      Reviewer #1This is a fair comment that needs to be included in the manuscript.

      As you suggested, this comment is now included in the revised manuscript

      (2) The data presented in Figure 2 is not convincingly supportive of the authors' conclusion. The authors argue that "...CD81 was present in the plasma membrane-derived limiting membrane (Figures 2B, D, F), while CD63 was only found inside the MV-lEVs (Fig. 2A, C, E)." However, in Figure 2G, there is an observable CD63 signal in the limiting membrane (overlapping with the green signals), and in Figure 2J, CD81 also exhibits overlap with MV-IEVs.

      Both CD63 and CD81 are tetraspanins known to be present both in the membrane of sEVs and in the plasma membrane of cells (for references, please see Uniprot subcellular location maps: https://www.uniprot.org/uniprotkb/P08962/entry#subcellular_location https://www.uniprot.org/uniprotkb/P60033/entry#subcellular_location). However, according the feedback of the reviewer, for clarity, we will delete the implicated sentence from the text.

      Reviewer #1 Please also justify the statement questioned in (3) as these arguments are interconnected.

      We hope you find our above responses to your comment acceptable.

      (3) Following up on the previous concern, the authors argue that CD81 and CD63 are exclusively located on the limiting membrane and MV-IEVs, respectively (Figure 2-A-M). However, in lines 104-106, the authors conclude that "The simultaneous presence of CD63, CD81, TSG101, ALIX, and the autophagosome marker LC3B within the MV-lEVs..." This statement indicates that CD63 and CD81 co-localize to the MV-IEVs. The authors need to address this apparent discrepancy and provide an explanation.

      There must be a misunderstanding because we did not claim or implicate in the text that “CD81 and CD63 are exclusively located on the limiting membrane and MV-IEVs”. Here we studied co-localization of the above proteins in the case intraluminal vesicles (ILVs). In Fig 2. we did not show any analysis of limiting membrane co-localization.

      Reviewer #1 I have indicated that this statement is found in lines 104-106, where the authors argue, 'The simultaneous presence of CD63, CD81, TSG101, ALIX, and the autophagosome marker LC3B within the MV-lEVs...' If the authors acknowledge the inaccuracy of this statement, please provide a justification for this argument.

      For clarity, we modified the description of data shown in Fig2 in the revised manuscript.

      (4) The specificity of the antibodies used in Figure 2 should be validated through knockout or knockdown experiments. Several of the antibodies used in this figure detect multiple bands on western blots, raising doubts about their specificity. Verification through additional experimental approaches is essential to ensure the reliability and accuracy of all the immunostaining data in this manuscript.

      We will consider this suggestion during the revision of the manuscript.

      Reviewer #1:Please do so.

      We carefully considered the suggestion, but we realized that it was not feasible for us to perform gene silencing in the case of all our used antibodies before resubmission of our revised manuscript. However, we repeated the Western blot for mouse anti-CD81 (Invitrogen MAA5-13548) and replaced the previous Western blot by it in the revised manuscript (Fig.2-S4H)

      (5) In Figures 2P-R, the morphology of the MV-IEVs does not resemble those shown in Figures 1-A, H, and D, indicating a notable inconsistency in the data.

      EM images in Figure2 P-R show sEVs separated from serum-free conditioned media as opposed to MV-lEVs, which were in situ captured in fixed tissue cultures (Fig1). Therefore, the two EV populations necessarily have different size and structure. Furthermore, Fig. 1 shows images of ultrathin sections while in Figure 2P-R, we used a negative-positive contrasting of intact sEV-s without embedding and sectioning.

      (6) There are no loading controls provided for any of the western blot data.

      Not even the latest MISEV 2023 guidelines give recommendations for proper loading control for separated EVs in Western blot (MISEV 2023 , DOI: 10.1002/jev2.12404 PMID: 38326288). Here we applied our previously developed method (PMID: 37103858), which in our opinion, is the most reliable approach to be used for sEV Western blotting. For whole cell lysates, we used actin as loading control (Fig3-S2B).

      Reviewer #1: The blots referenced here (Fig2-S3; Fig2-S4B; Fig3-S2B) were conducted using total cell lysates, not EV extracts. Only one blot in Fig3-S2B includes an actin control. All remaining blots should incorporate actin controls for consistency.

      Fig2-S3 (corresponding to Fig2-S4 in the revised manuscript) only shows reactivity of the used antibodies. This Western blot is not intended to serve as a basis of any quantitative conclusions. Fig2-S4 (corresponding to Fig2-S5 in the revised manuscript) includes the actin control. Fig3-S2B shows the complete membrane, which was cut into 4 pieces, and the immune reactivity of different antibodies was tested. The actin band was included on the anti-LC3B blot. For clarity, we rephrased the figure legend.

      Additionally, for Figures 2-S4B, the authors should run the samples from lanes i-iii in a single gel.

      Please note that in Figure 2- S4B, we did run a single gel, and the blot was cut into 4 pieces, which were tested by anti-GFP, anti-RFP, anti-LC3A and anti-LC3B antibodies. Full Western blots are shown in Fig.3_S2 B, and lanes “1”, “2” and “3” correspond to “i”, “ii” and “iii” in Fig.2-S4, respectively.

      Reviewer #1: In the original Figure 2- S4B, the blots were sectioned into 12 pieces. If lanes "i," "ii," and "iii" were run on the same blot, the authors are advised to eliminate the grids between these lanes.

      Grids separating the lanes have been eliminated on Fig.2_S4 (now Fig.2_S5 in the revised manuscript).

      (7) In Figure 2-S4, is there co-localization observed between LC3RFP (LC3A?) with other MV-IFV markers? How about LC3B? Does LC3B co-localize with other MV-IFV markers?

      In Supplementary Figure 2-S4, we showed successful generation of HEK293T-PalmGFP-LC3RFP cell line. In this case we tested the cells, and not the released MV-lEVs. LC3A co-localized with the RFP signal as expected.

      Reviewer #1: Does LC3RFP colocalize with MV-IFV markers in HEK293T-PalmGFP-LC3RFP cell line? This experiment aims to clarify the conclusion made in lines 104-106, where the authors assert that 'The concurrent existence of CD63, CD81, TSG101, ALIX, and the autophagosome marker LC3B within the MV-lEVs...'

      In the case of PalmGFP-LC3RFP cells, LC3-RFP is overexpressed. Simultaneous assessment of this overexpressed protein with non-overexpressed, fluorescent antibod-detected molecules proved to be challenging because of spectral overlaps and inappropriate signal-noise ratios. Furthermore, in association with EVs, the number of antibody-detected molecules is substantially lower than in cells. Therefore, even though we tried, we could not successfully perform these experiments.

      (8) The TEM images presented in Figure 2-S5, specifically F, G, H, and I, do not closely resemble the images in Figure 2-S5 K, L, M, N, and O. Despite this dissimilarity, the authors argue that these images depict the same structures. The authors should provide an explanation for this observed discrepancy to ensure clarity and consistency in the interpretation of the presented data.

      As indicated in Material and Methods, Fig 2-S5 F, G, H and I are conventional TEM images fixed by 4% glutaraldehyde 1% OsO<sub>4</sub> 2h and embedded into Epon resin with a post contrasting of 3.75% uranyl acetate 10 min and 12 min lead citrate. Samples processed this way have very high structure preservation and better image quality, however, they are not suitable for immune detection. In contrast, Fig.2.-S5 K,L,M,N shows immunogold labelling of in situ fixed samples. In this case we used milder fixation (4% PFA, 0.1% glutaraldehyde, postfixed by 0.5% OsO<sub>4</sub> 30 min) and LR-White hydrophilic resin embedding. This special resin enables immunogold TEM analysis. The sections were exposed to H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> and NaBH<sub>4</sub> to render the epitopes accessible in the resin. Because of the different applied techniques, the preservation of the structure is not the same. In the case of Fig.2 J, O, separated sEVs were visualised by negative-positive contrast and immunogold labelling as described previously (PMID: 37103858).

      Reviewer #1: Please include this justification in the revised version.

      We included this justification in the revised manuscript.

      (9) For Figures 3C and 3-S1, the authors should include the images used for EV quantification. Considering the concern regarding potential contamination introduced by FBS (concern 1), it is advisable for the authors to employ an independent method to identify EVs, thereby confirming the reliability of the data presented in these figures.

      In our revised manuscript, we will provide all the images used for EV quantification in Figure 3C. Given that Figures 3C and 3-S1 show MV-lEVs released by HEK293T-PlamGFP cells, the possible interference by FBS-derived non-fluorescent EVs can be excluded.

      Reviewer #1: Please provide all the images.

      Original LASX files are provided (DOI: 10.6019/S-BIAD1456 ).

      Reviewer #1: The images raising concerns regarding the contamination of EVs in FBS primarily consist of transmission electron microscopy (TEM) images, namely, Figure 1, 2P-S, S5, and Figure 4 P-U, along with the quantification of EV numbers in Figure 3. These concerns persist despite the use of fluorescent-labeled experiments. While fluorescent-labeled MV-lEVs are conclusively identified as originating from the cells, the MV-lEVs observed in Figure 1, 2P-S, S5, and Figure 4 P-U and Figure 3 may derive from both the cells and FBS.

      Large EVs (with diameter >800 nm) derived from FBS were not present in our experiments, as discussed above.

      (10) Do the amphiectosomes released from other cell types as well as cells in mouse kidneys or liver contain LC3B positive and CD63 positive ILVs?

      Based on our confocal microscopic analysis, in addition the HEK293T-PalmGFP cells, HT29 and HepG2 cells also release similar LC3B and CD63 positive MV-lEVs. Preliminary evidence shows MV-lEV secretion by additional cell types.

      The response of Reviewer #1: Please show these data in the revised manuscript. Moreover, do cells in mouse kidneys or liver contain LC3B positive and CD63 positive ILVs?

      We have added new confocal microscopic images to Fig2-S3 showing amphiectosomes released also by the H9c2 (ATCC) cardiomyoblast cell line. To preserve the ultrastructure of MV-lEVs in complex organs like kidney and liver, fixation with 4% glutaraldehyde with 1% OsO4 appears to be essential. This fixation does not allow for immune detection to assess LC3B and CD63 positive MV-lEVs in the ultrathin sections.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors had previously identified that a colorectal cancer cell line generates small extracellular vesicles (sEVs) via a mechanism where a larger intracellular compartment containing these sEVs is secreted from the surface of the cell and then tears to release its contents. Previous studies have suggested that intraluminal vesicles (ILVs) inside endosomal multivesicular bodies and amphisomes can be secreted by the fusion of the compartment with the plasma membrane. The 'torn bag mechanism' considered in this manuscript is distinctly different because it involves initial budding off of a plasma membrane-enclosed compartment (called the amphiectosome in this manuscript, or MV-lEV). The authors successfully set out to investigate whether this mechanism is common to many cell types and to determine some of the subcellular processes involved.

      The strengths of the study are:

      (1) The high-quality imaging approaches used, seem to show good examples of the proposed mechanism.

      (2) They screen several cell lines for these structures, also search for similar structures in vivo, and show the tearing process by real-time imaging.

      (3) Regarding the intracellular mechanisms of ILV production, the authors also try to demonstrate the different stages of amphiectosome production and differently labelled ILVs using immuno-EM.

      Several of these techniques are technically challenging to do well, and so these are critical strengths of the manuscript.

      The weaknesses are:

      (1) Most of the analysis is undertaken with cell lines. In fact, all of the analysis involving the assessment of specific proteins associated with amphiectosomes and ILVs are performed in vitro, so it is unclear whether these processes are really mirrored in vivo. The images shown in vivo only demonstrate putative amphiectosomes in the circulation, which is perhaps surprising if they normally have a short half-life and would need to pass through an endothelium to reach the vessel lumen unless they were secreted by the endothelial cells themselves.

      Our previous results analyzing PFA-fixed, paraffin embedded sections of colorectal cancer patients provided direct evidence that MV-lEV secretion also occurs in humans in vivo (PMID: 31007874). Regarding your comment on the presence of amphiectosomes in the circulation despite their short half-lives, we would like to point out that Fig1.X shows a circulating lymphocyte which releases MV-lEV within the vessel lumen. Furthermore, in the revised manuscript, an additional Fig.1-S1 is provided. Here, we show the release of MV-lEVs both by an endothelial and a sub-endothelial cell (Fig.1-S1G). In addition, these images show the simultaneous presence of MV-lEVs and sEVs in the circulation (Fig.1-S1.A,C,D,H and I). The transmission electron micrographs of mouse kidney and liver sections provide additional evidence that the MV-lEVs are released by different types of cells, and the “torn bag release” also takes place in vivo (Fig.1.V).

      (2) The analysis of the intracellular formation of compartments involved in the secretion process (Figure 2-S5) relies on immuno-EM, which is generally less convincing than high-/super-resolution fluorescence microscopy because the immuno-labelling is inevitably very sporadic and patchy. High-quality EM is challenging for many labs (and seems to be done very well here), but high-/super-resolution fluorescence microscopy techniques are more commonly employed, and the study already shows that these techniques should be applicable to studying the intracellular trafficking processes.

      As you suggested, in the revised manuscript, we present additional super-resolution microscopy (STED) data. The intracellular formation of amphisomes, the fragmentation of LC3B-positive membranes and the formation of LC3B-positive ILVs were captured (Fig. 3B-F).

      (3) One aspect of the mechanism, which needs some consideration, is what happens to the amphisome membrane, once it has budded off inside the amphiectosome. In the fluorescence images, it seems to be disrupted, but presumably, this must happen after separation from the cell to avoid the release of ILVs inside the cell. There is an additional part of Figure 1 (Figure 1Y onwards), which does not seem to be discussed in the text (and should be), that alludes to amphiectosomes often having a double membrane.

      We agree with your comment regarding the amphisome membrane and we added a sentence to the Discussion of the revised manuscript. Fig1Y onwards is now discussed in the manuscript. In addition, we labelled the surface of living HEK293 cells with wheat germ agglutinin (WGA), which binds to sialic acid and N-acetyl-D-glucosamine. After removing the unbound WGA by washes, the cells were cultured for an additional 3 hours, and the release of amphiectosomes was studied. The budding amphiectosome had WGA positive membrane providing evidence that the external limiting membrane had a plasma membrane origin (Fig.3G)

      (4) The real-time analysis of the amphiectosome tearing mechanism seemed relatively slow to me (over three minutes), and if this has been observed multiple times, it would be helpful to know if this is typical or whether there is considerable variation.

      Thank you for this comment. In the revised manuscript, we highlight that the first released LC3 positive ILV was detected as early as within 40 sec.

      Overall, I think the authors have been successful in identifying amphiectosomes secreted from multiple cell lines and demonstrating that the ILVs inside them have at least two origins (autophagosome membrane and late endosomal multivesicular body) based on the markers that they carry. The analysis of intracellular compartments producing these structures is rather less convincing and it remains unclear what cells release these structures in vivo.

      I think there could be a significant impact on the EV field and consequently on our understanding of cell-cell signalling based on these findings. It will flag the importance of investigating the release of amphiectosomes in other studies, and although the authors do not discuss it, the molecular mechanisms involved in this type of 'ectosomal-style' release will be different from multivesicular compartment fusion to the plasma membrane and should be possible to be manipulated independently. Any experiments that demonstrate this would greatly strengthen the manuscript.

      We appreciate these comments of the reviewer. Experiments are on their way to elucidate the mechanism of the “ectosomal style” exosome release and will be the topic of our next publication.

      In general, the EV field has struggled to link up analysis of the subcellular biology of sEV secretion and the biochemical/physical analysis of the sEVs themselves, so from that perspective, the manuscript provides a novel angle on this problem.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors describe a novel mode of release of small extracellular vesicles. These small EVs are released via the rupture of the membrane of so-called amphiectosomes that resemble "morphologically" Multivesicular Bodies.

      These structures have been initially described by the authors as released by colorectal cancer cells (https://doi.org/10.1080/20013078.2019.1596668). In this manuscript, they provide experiments that allow us to generalize this process to other cells. In brief, amphiectosomes are likely released by ectocytosis of amphisomes that are formed by the fusion of multivesicular endosomes with autophagosomes. The authors propose that their model puts forward the hypothesis that LC3 positive vesicles are formed by "curling" of the autophagosomal membrane which then gives rise to an organelle where both CD63 and LC3 positive small EVs co-exist and would be released then by a budding mechanism at the cell surface that appears similar to the budding of microvesicles /ectosomes. Very correctly the authors make the distinction from migrasomes because these structures appear very similar in morphology.

      Strengths:

      The findings are interesting despite that it is unclear what would be the functional relevance of such a process and even how it could be induced. It points to a novel mode of release of extracellular vesicles.

      Weaknesses:

      This reviewer has comments and concerns concerning the interpretation of the data and the proposed model. In addition, in my opinion, some of the results in particular micrographs and immunoblots (even shown as supplementary data) are not of quality to support the conclusions.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Highlight MV-IEV, ILV and limiting membrane in Figure-1G, N, and U.

      Based on the suggestion, we revised Figure1

      (2) Figure 1-Y-AF are not mentioned in the text.

      In the revised manuscript, we discuss Figure 1Y-AF

      (3) The term "IEVs" in Figure 2-S2 is not defined.

      We modified the figure legend: we changed MV-lEV to amphiectosome

      (4) Need to quantify co-localization in Figure 2-S2.

      As suggested, we carried out the co-localisation analysis (Fig2-S2I), and Fig2-S2 was re-edited

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I have two recommendations for improving the manuscript through additional experiments:

      (1) I think the description of the intracellular processes taking place in order to form amphiectosomes would be much stronger if some super-resolution imaging could be undertaken. This should label the different compartments before and after fusion with specific markers that highlight the protein signature of the different limiting and ILV membranes much more clearly than immuno-EM. It will also help in characterising the double-membrane structure of amphiectosomes at the point of budding and reveal whether the patchy labelling of the inner membrane emerges after amphiectosome release (the schematic model currently suggests that it happens before).

      Thank you for your suggestion. STED microscopy was applied and results are shown in new Fig3 and the schematic model was modified accordingly.

      (2) The implications of the manuscript would be more wide-ranging if the authors could test genetic manipulations that are believed to block exosome or ectosome release, eg. Rab27a or Arrdc1 knockdown. This may allow them to determine whether MV-lEVs can be released independently of the classical exosome release mechanism because they use a different route to be released from the plasma membrane. This experiment is not essential, but I think it would start to address the core regulatory mechanisms involved, and if successful, would easily allow the authors to determine the ratio of CD63-positive sEVs being secreted via classical versus amphiectosome routes.

      The suggestion is very valuable for us and these studies are being performed in a separate project.

      I think there are several other ways in which the manuscript could be improved to better explain some of the approaches, findings and interpretation:

      (1) Include some explanation in the text of certain key tools, particularly:

      a. Palm-GFP and whether its expression might alter the properties of the plasma membrane since this is used in a lot of experiments and is the only marker that seems to uniformly label the outer membrane of amphiectosomes. One concern might be that its expression drives amphiectosome secretion.

      We found evidence for amphiectosome release also in the case of several different cells not expressing Palm-GFP. We believe, this excludes the possibility that Palm-GFP expression is the inducer of the amphiectosome release. Both by fluorescent and electron microscopy, the Palm-GFP non expressing cells showed very similar MV-lEVs. In addition, in the case of non-transduced HEK293 and fluorescent WGA-binding, we made similar observations.

      b. Lactadherin - does this label the amphiectosomes after their release or does the wash-off step mean that it only labels cells, which subsequently release amphiectosomes?

      Lactadherin labels the amphiectosomes after their release and fixation. Living cells cannot be labelled by lactadherin as PS is absent in the external plasma membrane layer of living cells. We used WGA on HEK293 cells to further support the plasma membrane origin of the external membrane of amphiectosomes.

      (2) Explain the EM and confocal imaging approaches more clearly. Most importantly, is a 3D reconstruction always involved to confirm that 'separated' amphiectosomes are not joined to cells in another Z-plane.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We have modified the manuscript accordingly

      (3) Presenting triple-labelled images with red, green and yellow channels does not allow individual labelling to be determined without single-channel images and even then, it is much more informative to use three distinguishable colours that make a different colour with overlap, eg. CMY? Fig.2_S2D and E do not display individual channels, so definitely need to be changed.

      In case of Fig.2_S2D, we now show the individual channels, the earlier E image has been removed. In case of the STED images, CMY colors had been used, as you suggested.

      (4) Please discuss in the text the data in Figure 1Y onwards concerning single/double membranes on MV-lEVs.

      In the revised manuscript, we discuss the question on single/double membranes and we refer to Figure 1Y-AF

      (5) On line 162, reword 'intraluminal TSPAN4 only' to 'one in which TSPAN4 is only intraluminal' to make it clear that other proteins are also marking the intraluminal region, not TSPAN4 only.

      We modified the text accordingly.

      (6) Points for further discussion and further conclusions:

      a. In vivo experiments - discuss the limitations of this part of the analysis - it seems that none of the amphiectosome markers have been analysed in this part of the study and the MV-lEVs are only in the circulation.

      b. Can the authors give any further indication of the levels of MV-lEVs relative to free sEVs from any of their studies?

      Using our current approach, it is not possible to determine the levels of MV-lEVs to free sEV. Without analyzing serial ultrathin sections, determination of the relative ratio of MV-lEVs and sEVs would depend on the actual section plane. In future projects, we will determine the ratio of LC3 positive and negative sEVs by single EV analysis techniques (such as SP-IRIS). In the revised manuscript, additional TEM images are included to provide evidence for the simultaneous presence of sEVs and MV-lEVs and MV-lEVs both inside and outside of the circulation.

      c. Please discuss the single versus double membrane issue (relating to experiments proposed above).

      We discuss this question in more details in the revised manuscript.

      d. Please point out that the release mechanism (plasma membrane budding) will involve different molecular mechanisms to establish exosome release, and this might provide a route to determine relative importance.

      We are currently running a systemic analysis of the release mechanism of amphiectosomes, and this will be the topic of a separate manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      * The model is not supported.

      * The data is not of quality.

      * The appropriate methods are not exploited.

      We are sorry, we cannot respond to these unsupported critiques.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This important study showing that sleep deprivation increases functional synapses while depleting silent synapses supports previous findings that excitatory signaling increases during wakefulness. This manuscript focuses in particular on AMPA/NMDA ratios. An interesting, although speculative, aspect of the manuscript is the inclusion of a model for the accumulation of sleep need that is based upon the MEF2C transcription factor but also links to the sleep-regulating SIK3-HDAC4/5 pathway. The authors have clarified some questions raised in the previous review, but the evidence for major claims was still found to be incomplete, requiring additional experimentation.

      The major claims of this study are: 1) SD increases the AMPA/NMDA receptor ratio and RS restores it; 2) SD decreases silent synapses compared to CS and RS restores their number after SD; 3) the majority of SD-induced DEGs are found in ExIT cells (glutamate pyramidal neurons projecting within the telencephalon); 4) ExIT SD-induced DEGs are enriched for genes encoding synaptic shaping components and for autism spectrum disorder risk and; 5) these DEGs are also enriched for DEGs induced by Mef2c loss of function restricted to forebrain glutamate neurons (ExIT cells comprise a subset of these) and by over-expression of constitutively nuclear HDAC4 that represses MEF2c transcriptional function. The last claim is consistent with an intracellular signaling model (presented as a hypothesis to be tested, in figure 4B).

      [The above is added to the start of the discussion section.]

      The specific claims are supported by solid evidence provided in this manuscript. The statistical support is now more clearly presented, with several changes in response to queries by reviewer 1.

      The technical issues raised by reviewer 1 do not detract from the claims, thus supported. The rationale for this assessment is expanded below in response to reviewer 1.

      Summary:

      This manuscript by Vogt et al examines how the synaptic composition of AMPA and NMDA receptors changes over sleep and wake states. The authors perform whole-cell patch clamp recordings to quantify changes in silent synapse number across conditions of spontaneous sleep, sleep deprivation, and recovery sleep after deprivation. They also perform single nucleus RNAseq to identify transcriptional changes related to AMPA/NMDA receptor composition following spontaneous sleep and sleep deprivation. The findings of this study are consistent with a decrease in silent synapse number during wakefulness and an increase during sleep. However, these changes cannot be conclusively linked to sleep/wake states. Measurements were performed in motor cortex, and sleep deprivation was achieved by forced locomotion, raising the possibility that recent patterns of neuronal activity, rather than sleep/wake states, are responsible for the observed results.

      Strengths:

      This study examines an important question. Glutamatergic synaptic transmission has been a focus of studies in the sleep field, but AMPA receptor function has been the primary target of these studies. Silent synapses, which contain NMDA receptors but lack AMPA receptors, have important functional consequences for the brain. Exploring the role of sleep in regulating silent synapse number is important to understanding the role of sleep in brain function. The electrophysiological approach of measuring the failure rate ratio, supported by AMPA/NMDA ratio measurements, is a rigorous tool to evaluate silent synapse number.

      The authors also perform snRNAseq to identify genes differentially expressed in the spontaneous sleep and sleep deprivation groups. This analysis reveals an intriguing pattern of upregulated genes controlled by HDAC4 and Mef2c, along with synaptic shaping component genes and genes associated with autism spectrum disorder, across cell types in the sleep deprivation group. This unbiased approach identifies candidate genes for follow-up studies. The finding that ASD-risk genes are differentially expressed during SD also raises the intriguing possibility that normal sleep function is disrupted in ASD.

      Weaknesses:

      A major consideration to the interpretation of this study is the use of forced locomotion for sleep deprivation. Measurements are made from motor cortex, and therefore the effects observed could be due to differences in motor activity patterns across groups, rather than lack of sleep per se.

      Experimentally induced lack of sleep always involves differences in motor activity. As previously noted in revision 1, motor learning is unlikely to occur in this paradigm and inspection of the video (in supplementary materials) shows no repetitive motor behavioral sequences during the sleep deprivation, nor can this be considered exercise due to the very slow speed of treadmill movement employed. The obvious major difference between groups is a lack of sleep per se. (See below in the “Recommendations for authors”, reviewer 1 for comments on localized wake activity inducing localized sleep-need responses)

      Considering that other groups have failed to find a difference in AMPA/NMDA ratio in mice with different spontaneous sleep/wake histories (Bridi et al., Neuron 2020), confirmation of these findings in a different brain region would greatly strengthen the study.

      The study of Bridi et al., Neuron 2020, is not comparable to our study for several important reasons. First, their compared groups were from different circadian phases (180 degrees out of phase), whereas in our study, the circadian times for each group were matched (ZT=6hours). Second, experimentally induced sleep loss did not occur whereas it was a focus of our study. Third, spontaneous sleep/wake cannot be accurately matched amongst subjects whereas in our study, sleep loss was matched exactly between groups.

      We agree that assessment of AMPA/NMDA ratio and silent synapse number in sleep deprived compared to ad libitum sleep in other areas of the neocortex is of great interest and something we hope to pursue. It would not be surprising to find differences as preliminarily reported by Bahl, et al., Nat Commun. 2024 Jan 26;15(1):779. However, such data would not further strengthen our already well supported evidence for the differences we report in the motor cortex.

      The electrophysiological measurements and statistical analyses raise several questions. Input resistance (cutoffs and actual values) are not provided, making it difficult to assess recording quality.

      As stated in our first reply, these data were omitted (an admitted oversight on our part) but are now supplied in the methods section as, “Series resistance values for the recording pipette ranged between 8 and 15 MOhm and experiments with changes larger than 25% were not used for further analyses”. We have now also added the Rs/Rm (as a separate column) for each recorded neuron in table 1.

      Parametric one-way ANOVAs were used, although the data do not appear to be normally distributed.

      We have now removed all the One-way ANOVA tests for clarity (non-parametric tests were previously supplied in addition to the one-way ANOVA tests). Determination of significance with Kruskal-Wallis non-parametric test has not altered statistical support for our conclusions.

      Reviewer 1 correctly points out that we had not tested for normality of our distributions- the distributions are likely to be normal but the sample size is too small to confidently make this call  for the ratio data which is why we removed the one-way ANOVA’s entirely from table 1.

      Two-way ANOVA’s are used to assess AMPA and EPSC amplitudes and failure rates (table 1 tab 2&5)  across sleep conditions. As now indicated (table 1, tab 2&5), the distributions of AMPA and NMDA amplitudes and FRs passed the D'Agostino & Pearson test for normality and QQ plots provide illustration supporting this claim.

      In addition, for the AMPA/NMDA and FRR measurements (Figures 1E, F), the SD group (rather than the control sleep group) was used as the control group for post-hoc comparisons, but it is unclear why.

      The label of “control group” is arbitrary. CS and RS groups are similar (sleep density for RS>CS as expected).  Since this appears to be confusing, we now compare all groups to one another in table 1 with the same statistical outcome (additional comparison of CS to RS).

      While the data appear in line with the authors' conclusions, the number of mice (3/group) and cells recorded is low, and adding more would better account for inter-animal variability and increase the robustness of the findings.

      Of course, the larger the sample, the better the approximation to the population. Our sample sizes yielded significant differences at the usual p<=0.05 threshold with non-parametric testing. A larger sample size could allow for normality testing of the distributions of the data, but fortunately, this was not necessary to support our conclusions.

      The snRNAseq data are intriguing. However, several genes relevant to the AMPA/NMDA ratio are mentioned, but the encoded proteins would be expected to have variable effects on AMPA/NMDA receptor trafficking and function, making the model presented in Figure 4C oversimplified. A more thorough discussion of the candidate genes and pathways that are upregulated during sleep deprivation, the spatiotemporal/posttranslational control of protein expression, and their effects on AMPA/NMDA trafficking vs function is warranted.

      We have not studied the candidate genes at this point and do not yet understand their potential role(s) in sleep-related AMPA/NMDA functional ratio, only that their expression levels are altered with sleep condition. We agree with the reviewer that the data are intriguing and in need of further investigation. An important first step that can help direct such studies is the identification and preliminary characterization of good candidate genes with respect their cell type specificity, significance and fold change as we have done. Their potential roles likely depend on “the spatiotemporal/posttranslational control” and other factors as reviewer 1 notes.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Here Vogt et al., provide new insights into the need for sleep and the molecular and physiological response to sleep loss. The authors expand on their previously published work (Bjorness et al., 2020) and draw from recent advances in the field to propose a neuron-centric molecular model for the accumulation and resolution of sleep need and basis of restorative sleep function. While speculative, the proposed model successfully links important observations in the field and provides a framework to stimulate further research and advances on the molecular basis of sleep function. In my review, I highlight the important advances of this current work, the clear merits of the proposed model, and indicate areas of the model that can serve to stimulate further investigation.

      Strengths:

      Reviewer comment on new data in Vogt et al., 2024

      Using classic slice electrophysiology, the authors conclude that wakefulness (sleep deprivation (SD)) drives a potentiation of excitatory glutamate synapses, mediated in large part by "un-silencing" of NMDAR-active synapses to AMPAR-active synapses. Using a modern single nuclear RNAseq approach the authors conclude that SD drives changes in gene expression primarily occurring in glutamatergic neurons. The two experiments combined highlight the accumulation and resolution of sleep need centered on the strength of excitatory synapses onto excitatory neurons. This view is entirely consistent with a large body of extant and emerging literature and provides important direction for future research.

      Consistent with prior work, wakefulness/SD drives an LTP-type potentiation of excitatory synaptic strength on principle cortical neurons. It has been proposed that LTP associated with wake, leads to the accumulation of sleep need by increasing neuronal excitability, and by the "saturation" of LTP capacity. This saturation subsequently impairs the capacity for further ongoing learning. This new data provides a satisfying mechanism of this saturation phenomenon by introducing the concept of silent synapses. The new data show that in mice well rested, a substantial number of synapses are "silent", containing an NMDAR component but not AMPARs. Silent synapses provide a type of reservoir for learning in that activity can drive the un-silencing, increasing the number of functional synapses. SD depletes this reservoir of silent synapses to essentially zero, explaining how SD can exhaust learning capacity. Recovery sleep led to restoration of silent synapses, explaining how recovery sleep can renew learning capacity. In their prior work (Bjorness et al., 2020) this group showed that SD drives an increase in mEPSC frequency onto these same cortical neurons, but without a clear change in pre-synaptic release probability, implying a change in the number of functional synapses. This prediction is now born out in this new dataset.

      The new snRNAseq dataset indicates the sleep need is primarily seen (at the transcriptional level) in excitatory neurons, consistent with a number of other studies. First, this conclusion is corroborated by an independent, contemporary snRNAseq analysis recently available as a pre-print (Ford et al., 2023 BioRxiv https://doi.org/10.1101/2023.11.28.569011). A recently published analysis on the effects of SD in drosophila imaged synapses in every brain region in a cell-type dependent manner (Weiss et al., PNAS 2024), concluding that SD drives brain wide increases in synaptic strength almost exclusively in excitatory neurons. Further, Kim et al., Nature 2022, heavily cited in this work, show that the newly described SIK3-HDAC4/5 pathway promotes sleep depth via excitatory neurons and not inhibitory neurons.

      The new experiments provided in Fig1-3 are expertly conducted and presented. This reviewer has no comments of concern regarding the execution and conclusions of these experiments.

      Reviewer comment on model in Vogt et al., 2024

      To the view of this reviewer the new model proposed by Vogt et al., is an important contribution. The model is not definitively supported by new data, and in this regard should be viewed as a perspective, providing mechanistic links between recent molecular advances, while still leaving areas that need to be addressed in future work. New snRNAseq analysis indicates SD drives expression of synaptic shaping components (SSCs) consistent with the excitatory synapse as a major target for the restorative basis of sleep function. SD induced gene expression is also enriched for autism spectrum disorder (ASD) risk genes. As pointed out by the authors, sleep problems are commonly reported in ASD, but the emphasis has been on sleep amount. This new analysis highlights the need to understand the impact on sleep's functional output (synapses) to fully understand the role of sleep problems in ASD.

      Importantly, SD induced gene expression in excitatory neurons overlap with genes regulated by the transcription factor MEF2C and HDAC4/5 (Fig. 4). In their prior work, the authors show loss of MEF2C in excitatory neurons abolished the SD transcriptional response and the functional recovery of synapses from SD by recovery sleep. Recent advances identified HDAC4/5 as major regulators of sleep depth and duration (in excitatory neurons) downstream of the recently identified sleep promoting kinase SIK3. In Zhou et al., and Kim et al., Nature 2022, both groups propose a model whereby "sleep-need" signals from the synapse activate SIK3, which phosphorylates HDAC4/5, driving cytoplasmic targeting, allowing for the de-repression and transcriptional activation of "sleep genes". Prior work shows that HDAC4/5 are repressors of MEF2C. Therefore, the "sleep genes" derepressed by HDAC4/5 may be the same genes activated in response to SD by MEF2C. The new model thereby extends the signaling of sleep need at synapses (through SIK3-HDAC4/5) to the functional output of synaptic recovery by expression of synaptic/sleep genes by MEF2C. The model thereby links aspects of expression of sleep need with the resolution of sleep need by mediating sleep function: synapse renormalization.

      Weaknesses:

      Areas for further investigation.

      In the discussion section Vogt et al., explore the links between excitatory synapse strength, arguably the major target of "sleep function", and NREM slow-wave activity (SWA), the most established marker of sleep need. SIK3-HDAC4/5 have major effects on the "depth" of sleep by regulating NREM-SWA. The effects of MEF2C loss of function on NREM SWA activity are less obvious, but clearly impact the recovery of glutamatergic synapses from SD. The authors point out how adenosine signaling is well established as a mediator of SWA, but the links with adenosine and glutamatergic strength are far from clear. The mechanistic links between SIK3/HDAC4/5, adenosine signaling, and MEF2C, are far from understood. Therefore, the molecular/mechanistic links between a synaptic basis of sleep need and resolution with NREM-SWA activity require further investigation.

      Additional work is also needed to understand the mechanistic links between SIK3-HDAC4/5 signaling and MEF2C activity. The authors point out that constitutively nuclear (cn) HDAC4/5 (acting as a repressor) will mimic MEF2C loss of function. This is reasonable, however, there are notable differences in the reported phenotypes of each. Notably, cnHDAC4/5 suppresses NREM amount and NREM SWA but had no effect on the NREM-SWA increase following SD (Zhou et al., Nature 2022).

      We speculate that the effect of cnHDAC4/5 to reduce NREM-SWA together with the reduction of NREM amount may be due to a localized increase in neuronal excitability of arousal centers, which would be expected to mask NREM-SWA. Rebound NREM-SWA may reflect the relative rebound increase of NREM-SWA still present under chronic masking conditions (induced by cnHDAC4/5) of increased arousal system excitability. A similar effect to overcome NREM-SWA masking was reported in a Kcna2 KO mouse (a Shaker homologue) by Douglas, et al. (2007, BMC Biol).

      Loss of MEF2C in CaMKII neurons had no effect on NREM amount and suppressed the increase in NREM-SWA following SD (Bjorness et al., 2020). These instances indicate that cnHDAC4/5 and loss of MEF2C do not exactly match suggesting additional factors are relevant in these phenotypes. Likely HDAC4/5 have functionally important interactions with other transcription factors, and likewise for MEF2C, suggesting areas for future analysis.

      This is not a surprising outcome since both MEF2c and HDAC4/5 are transcription factors whose function(s) are determined by multiple other factors a subset of which are relevant to sleep conditions while other determining factors are not necessarily relevant to sleep. These factors can include their phosphorylation state, genomic accessibility, and interaction with other transcription factors. All these other factors are known to be both cell type specific and determined by intracellular conditions, that in turn, are affected by extracellular conditions and ligands. We certainly agree there is much future analysis needed.

      One emerging theme may be that the SIK3-HDAC4/5 axis are major regulators of the sleep state, perhaps stabilizing the NREM state once the transition from wakefulness occurs. MEF2C is less involved in regulating sleep per se, and more involved in executing sleep function, by promoting restorative synaptic modifications to resolve sleep need.

      A useful way to restate the above might be to distinguish between control of arousal levels determining the behavioral states, wake or sleep (including REM sleep) and control of sleep function. The term, sleep, is typically used to describe the behavioral state of sleep that acts as a permissive gate to sleep function (that resolves sleep need). The sleep state should not be conflated with sleep function. There is abundant evidence that control of arousal can be dissociated from sleep need and sleep function.

      Finally, advances in the roles of the respective SIK3-HDAC4/5 and MEF2C pathways point towards transcription of "sleep genes", as clearly indicated in the model of Fig.4. Clearly more work is needed to understand how the expression of such genes ultimately lead to resolution of sleep need by functional changes at synapses.

      We are in full agreement. We also note the SIK3-HDAC4/5 pathway may have more than one role, i.e., to affect arousal centers to alter behavioral state and, more generally, to control MEF2c’s transcriptional activity thus controlling sleep-related, glutamate, synaptic phenotype.

      What are these sleep genes and how do they mechanistically resolve sleep need? Thus, the current work provides a mechanistic framework to stimulate further advances in understanding the molecular basis for sleep need and the restorative basis of sleep function.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Major comments:

      (1) I appreciate the authors' thoughtful discussion of the use of forced locomotion for their sleep deprivation technique in their response, as well as the additional information that was provided regarding use of the treadmill in the manuscript. However, given that previous studies have failed to find a difference in AMPA/NMDA ratio following spontaneous sleep vs wake, confirmation of the findings in a non-motor brain region with the same SD technique (or confirmation within motor cortex with a different technique, although the authors correctly point out that other techniques also increase locomotor activity) would greatly strengthen the paper.

      Addressed above

      Notably, differences in motor activity patterns, not necessarily overall amount of locomotion, may induce differential synaptic changes between groups. This point at least warrants acknowledgement and discussion, but this has not been incorporated into the text of the manuscript.

      We will incorporate the following into the discussion:

      There is evidence that learning of a motor task  or experience of forced altered motor activity can result in localized increases in NREM (slow wave sleep)-slow wave activity (Huber R, Ghilardi MF, Massimini M, Tononi G. Local sleep and learning. Nature. 2004;430(6995):78-81); Huber et al., 2006) in the motor cortex. Since SWS-SWA is considered a marker for sleep homeostasis, the altered motor activity induced increase of SWS-SWA was considered evidence for sleep-related function. Our earlier work has clearly shown that the treadmill method of SD increases frontal cortical SWS-SWA rebound, indicating a sleep-homeostatic process (Bjorness et al., 2016; Bjorness et al., 2020). Furthermore, we have also shown that this means of experimental SD causes similar glutamate synaptic changes as those observed using other means of SD like gentle handling (Liu, et al., JoNS 2010).

      (2) The number of mice and cells used for electrophysiology in this study remains low; more animals should be included to account for inter-animal variability.

      For this study, increasing the number of mice and cells will have p<0.05 chance of altering our conclusions by rejecting the null hypotheses of the electrophysiology findings.

      (3) The additional methodological information provided allays some of my concerns regarding the electrophysiological data. However, information about the input resistance (cutoffs used and/or actual values) is still not provided, which is important for assessing recording quality.

      We have now supplied the experimentally determined input resistance for each neuron used in this study (a separate column in table 1, tabs marked, “data”).

      (4) It is not meaningful to compare raw AMPA or NMDA responses because stimulus electrode placement will differ between cells, potentially activating different numbers of afferents. Presenting these comparisons (Figure 1C) has the potential to mislead the reader.

      This is not misleading (it didn’t mislead reviewer 1) as we described the conditions. As expected by reviewer 1, the variability using “raw AMPA or NMDA responses…” was too great, but did indicate an interaction between receptor responses and sleep condition. This provided (as stated in the results section) rationale to examine, and to only draw conclusions from the AMPA/NMDA amplitude and FR ratios.

      (5) I appreciate clarification on the statistics and the authors' response has answered some of my questions. However, this also raises additional questions. What test was used to determine normality (and therefore whether to perform a parametric vs nonparametrictest)?

      Described above.

      Why was the FRR data analysis changed to a parametric test, when it does not appear that the data are normally distributed?

      Showing the parametric test was a mistake on our part- there are not enough samples to conclusively conclude the distributions are normal as reviewer 1 correctly suspects. However, the non-parametric Kruskal-Wallis tests that we also show  in table 1 indicate significant differences between conditions and the non-parametric, two-stage linear step-up procedure of Benjamini, Krieger and Yekutieli, indicates significant differences between CS-SD and RS-SD but not for CS-RS, supporting our conclusions. The (unsupported) parametric tests are now removed in Table 1 leaving behind the non-parametric test.

      Why were post-hoc tests chosen to compare to a control group rather than all pairwise comparisons,

      We now provide post-hoc all-pairwise comparisons to give the same results using the BKY analysis.

      and why was the SD rather than CS group used as the control in Figures 1E and F?

      Why were different post-hoc tests chosen for the data in Figures 1E, F?

      There was no need for this and we now, only show statistics that are used to draw our conclusions for the AMPA/NMDA EPSC ratios data shown in Figure 1E and Failure Rate Ratios data shown in Figure 1F (the conclusions are supported by the non-parametric post-hoc test and remain unchanged).

      (6) Genes in the SSC, ASD, Mef2cKO, and HD4cn categories are almost exclusively upregulated in the SD group compared to the CS group (Figure 4A). As the authors point out in their response, "No claim of mechanism linking the changed expression to altered AMPAR or NMDAR activity can be made at this point," largely due to the fact that we do not know the spatiotemporal or posttranslational modification patterns of the translated proteins, and how they affect receptor trafficking vs function. This is in agreement with my original point: as written (and as illustrated in Figure 4C), the manuscript implies that upregulation during SD increases the AMPA/NMDA ratio via receptor trafficking,

      The model indicates a likely (but not necessarily exclusive) role for AMPA/NMDA trafficking to explain the functional electrophysiological data that we do report and which is not in dispute. The SSC-DEGs in ExIT cells are consistent with sleep-altered AMPA/NMDA trafficking but remain only a correlation. However, the point is taken and Figure 4c has been revised to only reflect what we have observed electrophysiologically and the speculated mechanism(s) mediated by observed SSC-DEGs are illustrated with “?’s”.

      while in reality the picture is likely much more complicated, and therefore a more thorough discussion is warranted. Some discussion was provided in the authors' response but does not appear to have been incorporated into the text or Figure 4C.

      As indicated above the proposed model is changed in Figure 4c to more explicitly indicate which aspects reflect our electrophysiological data and which aspects reflect only an association of observations. 

      Minor comments:

      (1) Please justify only using male mice

      We had to start somewhere with our limited resources. Our intentions are to follow up with similar experiments using female mice, should funding be realized.

      (2) The model in Figure 4C is oversimplified and remains problematic, for the reasons stated in comment #6, above.

      See responses above.

      (3) Figure 4D remains confusing

      We agree. The unnecessary addition of adenosine effects on cholinergic arousal centers (experimentally well supported), have been removed from the figure to provide a more focused indication of how SWS-SWA can be related to either MEF2c and/or to ADORA1 activation through reduction of glutamate synaptic strength. ADORA1 activation elicits reduced glutamate synaptic activity through pre- and postsynaptic inhibition whereas MEF2c activation is essential to reduce sleep elicited, glutamate EPSC reduction. Reduced glutamate synaptic strength, whatever the cause, is associated with increased SWS-SWA.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      The study by Aguirre-Botero et al. shows the dynamics of 3D11 anti-CSP monoclonal antibody (mAb) mediated elimination of rodent malaria Plasmodium berghei (Pb) parasites in the liver. The authors show that the anti-CSP mAb could protect against intravenous (i.v.) Pb sporozoite challenge along with the cutaneous challenge, but requires higher concentration of antibody. Importantly, the study shows that the anti-CSP mAb not only affects sporozoite motility, sinusoidal extravasation, and cell invasion but also partially impairs the intracellular development inside the liver parenchyma, indicating a late effect of this antibody during liver stage development. While the study is interesting and conducted well, the only novel yet very important observation made in this manuscript is the effect of the anti-CSP mAb on liver stage development.

      Major

      This observation is highlighted in the manuscript title but is supported by only limited data. A such it needs to be substantiated and a mechanism should be investigated.  The phenomenon of intracellular effects of the anti-CSP mAb should be analyzed in much more detail. For example, can the authors demonstrate uptake of the Ab together with the parasite during hepatocyte invasion? What cellular mechanism leads to elimination?

      Lines 234 - 243; 308 - 325: These results are the gist of the entire study and also defined the title of the manuscript. Thus, it would be pre-mature to claim the substantial effect of 3D11 antibody in late killing of the parasite in the infected hepatocytes just by looking at the decreased GFP fluorescence. The authors need to at least verify the fitness of the liver stages by measuring the size of the developing parasites as well as using different parasite specific markers (UIS4, MSP1, HSP70 etc.) in immunofluorescence assays on the infected liver sections and in vitro infections. 

      We greatly appreciate the comments. We have taken the suggestions into consideration and deepened the characterization of 3D11's late killing of parasites. We first analyzed the presence of 3D11 in the intracellular parasite after the invasion and compared it with the CSP expression on the surface of control parasites (new Fig. 4F). Next, we tested a potential action of 3D11 added in the cell culture after the invasion (new Fig. 4G). The two new panels and the text accompanying them are shown below.

      “Post-invasion labeling of 3D11 bound to the membrane of intracellular parasites revealed a strong staining surrounding the parasite at 2 and 15h, but only punctual traces of 3D11 at 44h (Figure 4F, 3D11, 3D11). Of note, CSP was detected surrounding the control parasites at all time-points indicating that the lack of staining at 44h is not due to a decrease in the CSP amount on the parasite surface (Figure 4F, CSP, Control).  To evaluate the potential post-invasion entry of 3D11 into the PV of infected cells and posterior neutralization of intracellular parasites, we incubated invaded cells from 2 to 44 h with 3D11, but no effect on the parasite intracellular development was observed (Figure 4G, 2h p.i.). 3D11 incubated for 2 h with sporozoites and cells elicited, as expected, a dose-dependent inhibition of parasite development. Altogether, our results indicate that the late inhibition of parasite development is already achieved at 15h and likely caused by antibodies dragged inside cells bound to sporozoites before or during the invasion.”

      Finally, we better characterized the parasite loss of fitness caused by 3D11 in infected cells by quantifying the parasite size, GFP intensity and the presence and intensity of UIS4, a parasitophorous vacuole membrane developmental marker at 2, 4 and 44h as described below in the new figure 5 and accompanying text.

      “To further characterize the killing of intracellular parasites by 3D11 in HepG2 cells, we next evaluated the expression of the parasitophorous vacuole membrane (PVM) marker, UIS4 37, to infer the parasite intracellular development at 2, 4 and 44h. HepG2 cells were incubated with Pb-GFP expressing sporozoites in the absence (Control, Figure 5) or presence of 1.25 µg/mL of 3D11 during the first two hours of incubation (3D11, Figure 5). The chosen 3D11 concentration led to ~50% decrease in cell invasion (Figure 4C, 2h) and ~30% decrease in the post-invasion number of EEFs (Figure 4D), leaving enough parasites to be analyzed by microscopy. To distinguish between extracellular and intracellular parasites at 2h, washed and fixed samples were incubated with mouse 3D11 mAb (1µg/mL) and revealed with a fluorescent anti-mouse secondary antibody (Figure 5A, 3D11 in blue). Samples were then permeabilized and incubated with a goat anti-UIS4 polyclonal antibody revealed with a fluorescent anti-goat secondary antibody (Figure 5A, UIS4 in red). DNA was stained with Hoechst (Figure 5A, DNA in white).

      Extracellular GFP+ sporozoites were identified by their 3D11+UIS4- phenotype (Figure 5A, 2h, extracellular). Conversely, intracellular parasites were identified by their 3D11- phenotype and stained positive or negative for UIS4 (Figure 5A, 2h and 44h, intracellular). UIS4+ PVM is normally associated with a productive cell infection 37. However, a small number of EEFs can develop in the absence of UIS4 37, likely inside the host cell nucleus (Figure 5A, 44h, intranuclear).

      In the control and 3D11-treated groups, the percentage of intracellular UIS4- parasites decreased 2 to 3-fold from 2 to 44h, as expected of a parasite population negative for a marker of productive infection (Figure 5B). However, while at 2h in the control group, this population represented 14% of intracellular parasites, in the 3D11-treated group, it reached 48% (Figure 5B). This ~3-fold increase in the UIS4 negative population could explain the late killing of intracellular sporozoites by 3D11. Whether this population is constituted by intracellular transmigratory sporozoites lacking a PVM or parasites surrounded by a PVM, but incapable of secreting UIS4 still needs to be determined. At 44h, surviving EEFs in the 3D11-treated samples presented a similar area and UIS4 staining intensity than control parasites (Figure 5C, D). However, as observed by flow cytometry (Figure 4D), the GFP intensity of 3D11-treated parasites was significantly lower than control EEFs, indicating that 3D11 can somehow affect protein expression with undetermined effects in the genesis of red blood cell infecting stages.”

      Minor<br /> • Line 44 - 43: The statement is applicable only to the rodent infecting Plasmodium parasites. The authors need to clarify that.

      This is an important clarification. We have modified the text that now reads:

      “The sporozoite surface is covered by a dense coat of the circumsporozoite protein (CSP), shown to be an immunodominant protective antigen using a rodent malaria model”

      • Line 68: Replace the second 'against' after the CSP with 'of'.

      It is done.

      • Line 141 - 143: The 3D11 mAb does affect the homing and killing in the blood of cutaneous injected sporozoites. The authors need to clearly state that the statement is true only for i.v. injected sporozoites.

      Thank you for the comment. Now the text reads:

      “Altogether, these data indicate that 3D11 rather than having an early effect on i.v. inoculated sporozoites in the blood circulation, e.g. by inhibiting the homing or killing the parasite in the blood, requires more than 4 h to eliminate most parasites in the liver.”

      • Figure 3B: The numbers of sporozoites detected in the experiment varies from 0 h (line 172) to 2 h (line 184). Therefore, the numbers need to be mentioned on all the bars of each timepoint.

      We have now added the numbers at the top of the graph from Figure 3B.

      • Figure 3C: If the authors have used flk1-GFP mice, then how well they were able to detect the Pb-PfCSP GFP parasites in the vessel vs. parenchyma in the intravital imaging? The representative images for Pb-PfCSP GFP should also be included.

      Since 3D11 does not target PbPf parasites most of them are motile in the movies, making them easily distinguishable from the endothelial cells. In addition, the stronger GFP intensity of sporozoites makes them detectable in the sinusoids. Representative images were added in the new Figure S3.

      • It is not mentioned anywhere how the viability of the sporozoites was determined. This has to be described especially in the methods section.

      • Also, the flow acquisition and data analysis of the sporozoites and infected HepG2 cells must be described in the method section.

      We briefly mentioned it in the results (line 228- 230): “In addition, by comparing the total number of recovered GFP+ sporozoites at 2 h in the two studied conditions, we measured the early lethality (%viable sporozoites, Figure 4B) of the anti-CSP Ab on the extracellular forms of the parasite (Figure 4A).”

      A more detailed description has been added in the methods section that now reads:

      “After 2 h, the supernatant was collected, and the culture was washed 2x with 0.5 volume of PBS. The cells were subsequently trypsinized. The supernatant plus the washing steps and the trypsinized cells were analyzed by flow cytometry to quantify the amount of GFP+ events inside and outside cells (Figure 3A and Figure S4). Viability was then quantified by the sum of the total number of sporozoites (GPF+ events) in the supernatant, inside and outside the cells. We calculated the percentage of parasite viability by dividing the average of the total number of sporozoites in the treated samples by the average in controls using three technical replicates for each condition. Additionally, we quantified the percentage of infected cells using the total number of GFP+ events in the HepG2 gate (Figure S4). To compare the biological replicates, we further normalized to the control of each experiment. For the samples used to analyze parasite development, the cells were incubated for 15 or 44 h after sporozoite addition, and the medium was changed after 2 and 24 h. The cells were trypsinized and the percentage of intracellular parasites was determined by flow cytometry as described above (Figure S4). The prolonged effect between 2 h and 15/44 h was calculated by normalizing the percentage of infected cells at 15/44 h to that of 2 h. For all flow cytometry measurements, the same volume was acquired.”

      • Figure 4: The flow layouts should be included for at least comparing the 0 vs. 5 μg/ml of 3D11 mAb concentrations.

      Flow layouts were added in the supplementary figure 4.

      • Line 651 (Figure S1 legend): Typographical error '14'.

      Thank you for noticing. We corrected it.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Aguirre-Botero and collaborators report on the dynamics of Plasmodium parasite elimination in the liver using the 3D11 anti-CSP monoclonal antibody (mAb). By using microscopy and bioluminescence imaging in the P. berghei rodent malaria model, the authors first demonstrate that higher antibody concentrations are required for protection against intravenous sporozoite challenge, when compared to cutaneous challenge, which is not surprising. The study also shows that the 3D11 mAb reduces sporozoite motility, impairs hepatic sinusoidal barrier crossing, and more relevantly inhibits intracellular development of liver stages through its cytotoxic activity. These findings highlight the role of this specific monoclonal antibody, 3D11 mAb against CSP, in targeting sporozoites in the liver.
>

      Major Comments

      The study provides valuable insights into the mechanisms of protection conferred by the 3D11 anti-CSP monoclonal antibody against P. berghei sporozoites and this finding allow the field to speculate that other monoclonal antibodies against CSP of P. Falciparum may act similarly. However, an important experiment is missing that would significantly strengthen the conclusions. Specifically, the authors should perform experiments where the monoclonal antibody is added immediately after the sporozoites have completed invasion. This should be done both in vitro and in vivo to show whether the antibody has any effect on intracellular development of liver stages when added after invasion.

      While the claims are generally supported by the data presented, to comprehensively conclude the late cytotoxic effects of 3D11, the additional experiment of post-invasion antibody application is relevant. This would help determine if the observed effects are due to the antibody's action during invasion or its continued action post-invasion.

      The data and methods are presented in a manner that allows for reproducibility. The use of microscopy and bioluminescence imaging is well-documented. The experiments appear adequately replicated, and statistical analyses are appropriate.

      We thank reviewer 2 for these important suggestions. To be sure that the effect might not come from the internalization of the antibodies after sporozoite invasion, we tested the amount of 3D11 bound to the parasite following invasion (new Fig. 4F) and the potential post-invasion neutralizing effect of 3D11 in vitro. The results obtained are presented below.

      “Post-invasion labeling of 3D11 bound to the membrane of intracellular parasites revealed a strong staining surrounding the parasite at 2 and 15h, but only punctual traces of 3D11 at 44h (Figure 4F, 3D11, 3D11). Of note, CSP was detected surrounding the control parasites at all time-points indicating that the lack of staining at 44h is not due to a decrease in the CSP amount on the parasite surface (Figure 4F, CSP, Control).  To evaluate the potential post-invasion entry of 3D11 into the PV of infected cells and posterior neutralization of intracellular parasites, we incubated invaded cells from 2 to 44 h with 3D11, but no effect on the parasite intracellular development was observed (Figure 4G, 2h p.i.). 3D11 incubated for 2 h with sporozoites and cells elicited, as expected, a dose-dependent inhibition of parasite development. Altogether, our results indicate that the late inhibition of parasite development is already achieved at 15h and likely caused by antibodies dragged inside cells bound to sporozoites before or during the invasion.”

      Minor Comments

      The text and figures are clear and accurate. Some minor typographical errors should be corrected.

      Thank you for the remark; we have verified the text again to remove typographical errors.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Aguirre-Botero et al have studied the effect of a potent monoclonal antibody against the circumsporozoite protein, the major surface protein of the malaria sporozoite. This is an elegantly designed, performed, and analyzed study. They have efficiently delineated the mode of action of anti-CSP repeat mAb and confirmed previous in vitro work (not cited) that demonstrated the same intracellular effect. 

      Specific comments

      Line 51: The authors claim a correlation between high antibody levels and protection. However, they did not provide direct proof that these antibodies were responsible for protection, nor did they establish a cut-off level of anti-CSP antibodies that would distinguish between protected and unprotected individuals.

      We thank reviewer 3 for the comments. Indeed, we agree with reviewer 3, these are correlative studies where the causality cannot be established. We modified the ensuing sentence to specify the causality between anti-CSP mAbs and in vivo protection against sporozoite infection. Now the text reads:

      “Extensive research has demonstrated a positive correlation between high levels of anti-CSP antibodies (Abs) induced by the RTS,S/AS01 vaccine and efficacy against malaria(11-13). Remarkably, anti-CSP monoclonal Abs (mAbs) have been proven to protect in vivo against malaria in various experimental settings, including, mice(14-21), monkeys(23), and humans(24-26)”

      Line 326: The late intrahepatic effect of mAb against the CSP repeat has been previously reported (see Figure 2, Nudelman et al, J Immunol, 1989). The effect was shown to affect the transition from liver trophozoites to liver schizonts. This study should be cited and discussed.

      Thank you for this important remark. We included this seminal reference and now the modified text reads:

      “Notably, a similar effect has been previously reported using sera from mice immunized with PfCSP or mAb against P. yoelii (Py) CSP. Incubation of Pf or Py sporozoites with the immune sera or mAbs not only affected sporozoite invasion in vitro but continued to affect intracellular forms for several days after invasion(38,39). Additionally, using anti-PfCSP sera, it was also observed that late EEFs from sera-treated sporozoites had abnormal morphology(38). Altogether, it was thus concluded that the anti-CSP Abs present in the sera had a long-term effect on the parasites(38,39).”

    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript by Kaya et al. studies the effect of food consumption on hippocampal sharp wave ripples (SWRs) in mice. The authors use multiple foods and forms of food delivery to show that the frequency and power of SWRs increase following food intake, and that this effect depends on the caloric content of food. The authors also studied the effects of the administration of various food-intake-related hormones on SWRs during sleep, demonstrating that ghrelin negatively affects SWR rate and power, but not GLP-1, insulin, or leptin. Finally, the authors use fiber photometry to show that GABAergic neurons in the lateral hypothalamus, increase activity during a SWR event.

      Strengths:

      The experiments in this study seem to be well performed, and the data are well presented, visually. The data support the main conclusions of the manuscript that food intake enhances hippocampal SWRs. Taken together, this study is likely to be impactful to the study of the impact of feeding on sleep behavior, as well as the phenomena of hippocampal SWRs in metabolism.

      Weaknesses:

      Details of experiments are missing in the text and figure legends. Additionally, the writing of the manuscript could be improved.

      We thank the reviewer for their favorable assessment of the work and its potential impact. We will add all requested details in the text and figure legends and will revise the wording of the manuscript to improve its clarity.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Kaya et al uncover an intriguing relationship between hippocampal sharp wave-ripple production and peripheral hormone exposure, food intake, and lateral hypothalamic function. These findings significantly expand our understanding of hippocampal function beyond mnemonic processes and point a direction for promising future research.

      Strengths:

      Some of the relationships observed in this paper are highly significant. In particular, the inverse relationship between GLP1/Leptin and Insulin/Ghrelin are particularly compelling as this aligns well with opposing hormone functions on satiety.

      Weaknesses:

      I would be curious if there were any measurable behavioral differences that occur with different hormone manipulations.

      We thank the reviewer for their favorable assessment of the work and its contribution to our understanding of non-mnemonic hippocampal function. Whether there are behavioral differences that occur following administration of the different hormones is a great question, yet unfortunately our study design did not include fine behavioral monitoring to the degree that would allow answering it. While some previous studies have partially addressed the behavioral consequences of the delivery of these hormones (we will include a reference to these studies in the revised manuscript), how these changes may interact with the hippocampal and hypothalamic effects we observe is a very interesting next step.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Kaya et al. explores the effects of feeding on sharp wave-ripples (SWRs) in the hippocampus, which could reveal a better understanding of how metabolism is regulated by neural processes. Expanding on prior work that showed that SWRs trigger a decrease in peripheral glucose levels, the authors further tested the relationship between SWRs and meal consumption by recording LFPs from the dorsal CA1 region of the hippocampus before and after meal consumption. They found an increase in SWR magnitude during sleep after food intake, in both food restricted and ad libitum fed conditions. Using fiber photometry to detect GABAergic neuron activity in the lateral hypothalamus, they found increased activity locked to the onset of SWRs. They conclude that the animal's satiety state modulates the amplitude and rate of SWRs, and that SWRs modulate downstream circuits involved in regulating feeding. These experiments provide an important step forward in understanding how metabolism is regulated in the brain. However, currently, the paper lacks sufficient analyses to control for factors related to sleep quality and duration; adding these analyses would further support the claim that food intake itself, as opposed to sleep quality, is primarily responsible for changes in SWR activity. Adding this, along with some minor clarifications and edits, would lead to a compelling case for SWRs being modulated by a satiety state. The study will likely be of great interest in the field of learning and memory while carrying broader implications for understanding brain-body physiology.

      Strengths:

      The paper makes an innovative foray into the emerging field of brain-body research, asking how sharp wave-ripples are affected by metabolism and hunger. The authors use a variety of advanced techniques including LFP recordings and fiber photometry to answer this question. Additionally, they perform comprehensive and logical follow-up experiments to the initial food-restricted paradigm to account for deeper sleep following meal times and the difference between consumption of calories versus the experience of eating. These experiments lay the groundwork for future studies in this field, as the authors pose several follow-up questions regarding the role of metabolic hormones and downstream brain regions.

      We thank the reviewer for their appreciation and constructive review of the work.

      Weaknesses:

      Major comments:

      (1) The authors conclude that food intake regulates SWR power during sleep beyond the effect of food intake on sleep quality. Specifically, they made an attempt to control for the confounding effect of delta power on SWRs through a mediation analysis. However, a similar analysis is not presented for SWR rate. Moreover, this does not seem to be a sufficient control. One alternative way to address this confound would be to subsample the sleep data from the ad lib and food restricted conditions (or high calorie and low calorie, etc), to match the delta power in each condition. When periods of similar mean delta power (i.e. similar sleep quality) are matched between datasets, the authors can then determine if a significant effect on SWR amplitude and rate remains in the subsampled data.

      This is an important point that we believe we addressed in a few complementary ways. First, the mediation analysis we implemented measures the magnitude and significance of the contribution of food on SWR power after accounting for the effects of delta power, showing a highly significant food-SWR contribution. While the objective of subsampling is similar, mediation is a more statistically robust approach as it models the relationship between food, SWR power, and delta power in a way that explicitly accounts for the interdependence of these variables. Further, subsampling introduces the risk of losing statistical power by reducing the sample size, due to exclusion of data that might contain relevant and valuable information. Mediation analysis, on the other hand, uses the full dataset and retains statistical power while modeling the relationships between variables more holistically. However, as we were not satisfied with a purely analytical approach to test this issue, we carried out a new set of experiments in ad-libitum fed mice, where there is no potential issue of food restriction impairing sleep quality in the pre-sleep session. In these conditions food amount also significantly correlated with, and showed significant mediation of, the SWR power change. Finally, we acknowledge and discuss this point in the Discussion, highlighting that given the known relationship between cortical delta and SWRs, it is challenging to fully disentangle these signals.

      (2) Relatedly, are the animals spending the same amount of time sleeping in the ad lib vs. food restricted conditions? The amount of time spent sleeping could affect the probability of entering certain stages of sleep and thus affect SWR properties. A recent paper (Giri et al., Nature, 2024) demonstrated that sleep deprivation can alter the magnitude and frequency of SWRs. Could the authors quantify sleep quantity and control for the amount of time spent sleeping by subsampling the data, similar to the suggestion above?

      We will include a comparison of sleep amount in the revised manuscript.

      Additionally, we will add details to the Methods section that were missing in the original submission that are relevant to this point. Specifically, within the sleep sessions, the ongoing sleep states were scored using the AccuSleep toolbox (https://github.com/zekebarger/AccuSleep) using the EEG and EMG signals. NREM periods were detected based on high EEG delta power and low EMG power, REM periods were detected based on high EEG theta power and low EMG power, and Wake periods were detected based on high EMG power. Importantly, only NREM periods were included for subsequent SWR detection, quantification and analyses (in particular, reported SWR rates reflect the number of SWRs per second of NREM sleep).

      (3) Plot 5I only reports significance but does not clearly show the underlying quantification of LH GABAergic activity. Upon reading the methods for how this analysis was conducted, it would be informative to see a plot of the pre-SWR and post-SWR integral values used for the paired t-test whose p-values are currently shown. For example, these values could be displayed as individual points overlaid on a pair of box-and-whisker plots of the pre- and post-distribution within the session (perhaps for one example session per mouse with the p-value reported, to supplement a plot of the distribution of p-values across sessions and mice). If these data are non-normal, the authors should also use a non-parametric statistical test.

      We will include this quantification and visual representation in the revised manuscript.

      Minor comments:

      (4) A brief explanation (perhaps in the discussion) of what each change in SWR property (magnitude, rate, duration) could indicate in the context of the hypothesis may be helpful in bridging the fields of metabolism and memory. For example, by describing the hypothesized mechanistic consequence of each change, could the authors speculate on why ripple rate may not increase in all the instances where ripple power increases after feeding? Why do the authors speculate that ripple duration does not increase, given that prior work (Fernandez-Ruiz et al. 2019) has shown that prolonged ripples support enhanced memory?

      We will include a discussion of these points in the revised manuscript.

      (5) The authors suggest that "SWRs could modulate peripheral metabolism" as a future implication of their work. However, the lack of clear effects from GLP-1, leptin and insulin complicates this interpretation. It might be informative for readers if the authors expanded their discussion of what specific role they speculate that SWRs could play in regulating metabolism, given these negative results.

      While we provided potential explanations for the lack of effects of the hormone administrations, we will further elaborate on this point in the revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary: <br /> In this manuscript, the authors identified that 

      (1) CDK4/6i treatment attenuates the growth of drug-resistant cells by prolongation of the G1 phase; 

      (2) CDK4/6i treatment results in an ineffective Rb inactivation pathway and suppresses the growth of drug-resistant tumors;

      (3) Addition of endocrine therapy augments the efficacy of CDK4/6i maintenance;

      (4) Addition of CDK2i with CDK4/6 treatment as second-line treatment can suppress the growth of resistant cell;

      (5) The role of cyclin E as a key driver of resistance to CDK4/6 and CDK2 inhibition.

      Strengths:

      To prove their complicated proposal, the authors employed orchestration of several kinds of live cell markers, timed in situ hybridization, IF and Immunoblotting. The authors strongly recognize the resistance of CDK4/6 + ET therapy and demonstrated how to overcome it.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors need to underscore their proposed results from what is to be achieved by them and by other researchers. 

      Thank you for your thoughtful review and for highlighting both the strengths and weaknesses of our manuscript. We appreciate your recognition of the methodological rigor and the significance of our findings in addressing resistance to CDK4/6 inhibitors combined with endocrine therapy.

      To address your concern regarding the need to delineate our results from those achieved by other researchers, we will incorporate clarifications in the revised manuscript. Specifically, we will:

      (1) Clearly distinguish our novel contributions from prior findings in the field.

      (2) Explicitly cite and discuss relevant studies to contextualize our work, ensuring that our contributions are appropriately framed within the broader body of knowledge.

      These revisions will enhance the transparency and impact of our manuscript, as well as highlight the originality and significance of our findings. Thank you again for your constructive feedback.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study elucidated the mechanism underlying drug resistance induced by CDK4/6i as a single agent and proposed a novel and efficacious second-line therapeutic strategy. It highlighted the potential of combining CDK2i with CDK4/6i for the treatment of HR+/HER2- breast cancer.

      Strengths:

      The study demonstrated that CDK4/6 induces drug resistance by impairing Rb activation, which results in diminished E2F activity and a delay in G1 phase progression. It suggests that the synergistic use of CDK2i and CDK4/6i may represent a promising second-line treatment approach. Addressing critical clinical challenges, this study holds substantial practical implications.

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) Drug-resistant cell lines: Was a drug concentration gradient treatment employed to establish drug-resistant cell lines? If affirmative, this methodology should be detailed in the materials and methods section. 

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer for raising this important question. In the revised manuscript, we will update the methods section to include a detailed description of how the drug-resistant cell lines were developed. Specifically, we will clarify whether a drug concentration gradient treatment was employed and provide step-by-step details to ensure reproducibility.

      (2) What rationale informed the selection of MCF-7 cells for the generation of CDK6 knockout cell lines? Supplementary Figure 3. A indicates that CDK6 expression levels in MCF-7 cells are not notably elevated. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful question about the rationale for selecting MCF-7 cells to generate CDK6 knockout cell lines. This choice was guided by prior studies highlighting the significant role of CDK6 in mediating resistance to CDK4/6 inhibitors (1-4). Moreover, we observed a 4.6-fold increase in CDK6 expression in CDK4/6 inhibitor-resistant MCF-7 cells compared to their drug-naïve counterparts (Supplementary Figure 3A). While we did not detect notable differences in CDK4/6 activity between wild-type and CDK6 knockout cells under CDK4/6 inhibitor treatment, these findings point to a potential non-canonical function of CDK6 in conferring resistance to CDK4/6 inhibitors.

      (3) For each experiment, particularly those involving mice, the author must specify the number of individuals utilized and the number of replicates conducted, as detailed in the materials and methods section. 

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for bringing this to our attention. In the revised manuscript, we will provide explicit details regarding the number of replicates and mice used for each experiment. This information will be included in the materials and methods section, figure legends, and relevant text to ensure transparency and clarity.

      (4) Could this treatment approach be extended to triple-negative breast cancer? 

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer’s inquiry about extending our findings to triple-negative breast cancer (TNBC). Based on our data presented in Figure 1 and Supplementary Figure 2, which include the TNBC cell line MDA-MB-231, we anticipate that the benefits of maintaining CDK4/6 inhibitors could indeed be applied to TNBC with an intact Rb/E2F pathway.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In their manuscript, Armand and colleagues investigate the potential of continuing CDK4/6 inhibitors or combining them with CDK2 inhibitors in the treatment of breast cancer that has developed resistance to initial therapy. Utilizing cellular and animal models, the research examines whether maintaining CDK4/6 inhibition or adding CDK2 inhibitors can effectively control tumor growth after resistance has set in. The key findings from the study indicate that the sustained use of CDK4/6 inhibitors can slow down the proliferation of cancer cells that have become resistant, and the combination of CDK2 inhibitors with CDK4/6 inhibitors can further enhance the suppression of tumor growth. Additionally, the study identifies that high levels of Cyclin E play a significant role in resistance to the combined therapy. These results suggest that continuing CDK4/6 inhibitors along with the strategic use of CDK2 inhibitors could be an effective strategy to overcome treatment resistance in hormone receptor-positive breast cancer.

      Strengths:

      (1) Continuous CDK4/6 Inhibitor Treatment Significantly Suppresses the Growth of Drug-Resistant HR+ Breast Cancer: The study demonstrates that the continued use of CDK4/6 inhibitors, even after disease progression, can significantly inhibit the growth of drug-resistant breast cancer.

      (2) Potential of Combined Use of CDK2 Inhibitors with CDK4/6 Inhibitors: The research highlights the potential of combining CDK2 inhibitors with CDK4/6 inhibitors to effectively suppress CDK2 activity and overcome drug resistance.

      (3) Discovery of Cyclin E Overexpression as a Key Driver: The study identifies overexpression of cyclin E as a key driver of resistance to the combination of CDK4/6 and CDK2 inhibitors, providing insights for future cancer treatments.

      (4) Consistency of In Vitro and In Vivo Experimental Results: The study obtained supportive results from both in vitro cell experiments and in vivo tumor models, enhancing the reliability of the research.

      (5) Validation with Multiple Cell Lines: The research utilized multiple HR+/HER2- breast cancer cell lines (such as MCF-7, T47D, CAMA-1) and triple-negative breast cancer cell lines (such as MDA-MB-231), validating the broad applicability of the results.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The manuscript presents intriguing findings on the sustained use of CDK4/6 inhibitors and the potential incorporation of CDK2 inhibitors in breast cancer treatment. However, I would appreciate a more detailed discussion of how these findings could be translated into clinical practice, particularly regarding the management of patients with drug-resistant breast cancer. 

      We greatly appreciate this opportunity to further contextualize our findings within clinical practice. In the revised manuscript, we will expand the discussion to explore how the identified mechanisms can inform patient stratification and therapeutic combinations. We will also highlight the potential of integrating CDK2 inhibitors with continued CDK4/6 inhibition as a second-line strategy for HR+ breast cancer patients who exhibit resistance to CDK4/6 inhibitors, leveraging insights from current and ongoing clinical trials. This will provide a clearer framework for translating our findings into actionable therapeutic strategies.

      (2) While the emergence of resistance is acknowledged, the manuscript could benefit from a deeper exploration of the molecular mechanisms underlying resistance development. A more thorough understanding of how CDK2 inhibitors may overcome this resistance would be valuable. 

      Thank you for this insightful suggestion. In the revised manuscript, we will delve deeper into the molecular mechanisms by which CDK2 inhibitors counteract resistance to CDK4/6 inhibitors and endocrine therapy. We will emphasize the role of the non-canonical Rb inactivation pathway and upregulated transcriptional activity in reactivating CDK2, which contribute to resistance under CDK4/6 inhibition. Furthermore, we will discuss how dual inhibition of CDK4/6 and CDK2 effectively suppresses this resistance pathway, offering a mechanistic rationale for the therapeutic potential of this combination strategy.

      (3) The manuscript supports the continued use of CDK4/6 inhibitors, but it lacks a discussion on the long-term efficacy and safety of this approach. Additional studies or data to support the safety profile of prolonged CDK4/6 inhibitor use would strengthen the manuscript. 

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer for raising this important point. To address this, we will incorporate a discussion on the long-term safety and efficacy of CDK4/6 inhibitor maintenance therapy. Drawing from clinical trials and retrospective analyses (5-9), we will highlight data supporting the tolerability of prolonged CDK4/6i treatment, particularly in combination with endocrine therapy. We will also discuss its clinical benefits over chemotherapy or endocrine therapy alone, contextualizing these findings with our proposed therapeutic approach (6,8-11).

      References:

      (1) Yang C, Li Z, Bhatt T, Dickler M, Giri D, Scaltriti M_, et al._ Acquired CDK6 amplification promotes breast cancer resistance to CDK4/6 inhibitors and loss of ER signaling and dependence. Oncogene 2017;36:2255-64

      (2) Li Q, Jiang B, Guo J, Shao H, Del Priore IS, Chang Q_, et al._ INK4 Tumor Suppressor Proteins Mediate Resistance to CDK4/6 Kinase Inhibitors. Cancer Discov 2022;12:356-71

      (3) Ji W, Zhang W, Wang X, Shi Y, Yang F, Xie H_, et al._ c-myc regulates the sensitivity of breast cancer cells to palbociclib via c-myc/miR-29b-3p/CDK6 axis. Cell Death & Disease 2020;11:760

      (4) Wu X, Yang X, Xiong Y, Li R, Ito T, Ahmed TA_, et al._ Distinct CDK6 complexes determine tumor cell response to CDK4/6 inhibitors and degraders. Nature Cancer 2021;2:429-43

      (5) Martin JM, Handorf EA, Montero AJ, Goldstein LJ. Systemic Therapies Following Progression on First-line CDK4/6-inhibitor Treatment: Analysis of Real-world Data. Oncologist 2022;27:441-6

      (6) Xi J, Oza A, Thomas S, Ademuyiwa F, Weilbaecher K, Suresh R_, et al._ Retrospective Analysis of Treatment Patterns and Effectiveness of Palbociclib and Subsequent Regimens in Metastatic Breast Cancer. J Natl Compr Canc Netw 2019;17:141-7

      (7) Basile D, Gerratana L, Corvaja C, Pelizzari G, Franceschin G, Bertoli E_, et al._ First- and second-line treatment strategies for hormone-receptor (HR)-positive HER2-negative metastatic breast cancer: A real-world study. Breast 2021;57:104-12

      (8) Kalinsky K, Accordino MK, Chiuzan C, Mundi PS, Sakach E, Sathe C_, et al._ Randomized Phase II Trial of Endocrine Therapy With or Without Ribociclib After Progression on Cyclin-Dependent Kinase 4/6 Inhibition in Hormone Receptor–Positive, Human Epidermal Growth Factor Receptor 2–Negative Metastatic Breast Cancer: MAINTAIN Trial. Journal of Clinical Oncology;0:JCO.22.02392

      (9) Kalinsky K, Bianchini G, Hamilton EP, Graff SL, Park KH, Jeselsohn R_, et al._ Abemaciclib plus fulvestrant vs fulvestrant alone for HR+, HER2- advanced breast cancer following progression on a prior CDK4/6 inhibitor plus endocrine therapy: Primary outcome of the phase 3 postMONARCH trial. Journal of Clinical Oncology 2024;42:LBA1001-LBA

      (10) Mayer EL, Wander SA, Regan MM, DeMichele A, Forero-Torres A, Rimawi MF_, et al._ Palbociclib after CDK and endocrine therapy (PACE): A randomized phase II study of fulvestrant, palbociclib, and avelumab for endocrine pre-treated ER+/HER2- metastatic breast cancer. Journal of Clinical Oncology 2018;36:TPS1104-TPS

      (11) Llombart-Cussac A, Harper-Wynne C, Perello A, Hennequin A, Fernandez A, Colleoni M_, et al._ Second-line endocrine therapy (ET) with or without palbociclib (P) maintenance in patients (pts) with hormone receptor-positive (HR[+])/human epidermal growth factor receptor 2-negative (HER2[-]) advanced breast cancer (ABC): PALMIRA trial. Journal of Clinical Oncology 2023;41:1001-

    1. Author response:

      We appreciate the time and thoughtful reviews of all 3 reviewers. Ahead of a full revision of the paper, we would like to address a couple of points the reviewers have raised that we plan to address in more detail in our full revision.

      (1) The relationship between membrane tension and interfacial tension: The major request by reviewers was for a better explanation of the relationship between measured mechanical parameters and membrane interfacial tension. We plan to include a schematic of the different forces at play in the membrane and to clarify our discussion and here, provide a brief explanation.

      In our study, we identified a relationship between channel activation pressure and two membrane mechanical properties (area expansion modulus (K<sub>A</sub>) and bending rigidity (K<sub>c</sub>)) though we did not find a correlation between channel activation pressure and a third mechanical property (membrane fluidity). Through further computational analysis of the membranes, we identified an additional property called interfacial tension that helps unify and explain our results. Interfacial tension (γ) is a property akin to surface tension that reflects the chemical composition at the interface of the membrane (between the polar headgroups of the lipids and the hydrophobic acyl chains of the lipids) and balances the repulsive interaction of the nonpolar hydrocarbon chains with the polar headgroup regions of the lipids. In the established polymer brush model, the expansion modulus is proportional to the interfacial tension (W. Rawicz, Biophyiscal Journal, 2000)

      γ = K<sub>A</sub>/C,

      where C is a constant. Interfacial tension occurs at the boundary between the lipid bilayer and external aqueous environment and is different from mechanical tension. While mechanical membrane tension (t) reflects a physical force in plane with the membrane, interfacial tension reflects the chemical composition at each interface of the membrane. While mechanical membrane tension depends on the size and shape of the membrane, interfacial tension is independent of these features and depends on the molecular composition of the liquid-liquid interface. An expanded discussion on this topic was recently provided (Lipowsky. Faraday Discussions. 2024). While distinct, these two properties can be related to one another via the area expansion modulus (K<sub>A</sub>). Typically, one would imagine that upon reducing interfacial tension, and correspondingly reducing the K<sub>A</sub>, it should now take less energy to stretch the membrane to the same extent and should reduce the activation pressure (and corresponding in plane mechanical tension ) required to open an embedded mechanosensitive channel. Interestingly though, interfacial tension also works to pull the channel open so that a reduction in interfacial tension also means more energy will be required to open the channel. We find that reductions in interfacial tension and corresponding increased energy required to open embedded channels outweighs the reduced tension that should be required to stretch the membrane. We plan to more clearly explain this tradeoff in our revision. Overal, our findings identify the exact properties driving mechanosensitive channel behavior in our study. Further, they provide a guide to understanding how and why shifts in mechanosensitive channel activation occur by connecting chemical composition changes to the changes in membrane tension propagation in a given membrane.

      (2) Data presentation to support determined area expansion modulus and bending rigidity values: We will show stress strain curves used to derive Ka and kc values

      (3) Address why membrane tension data was not shown for ephys experiments: The micropipette and patch clamp setups are different, and we did not use the same system for both measurements. In fact, limitations in tools that would allow for concurrent tension measurements while conducting channel activation measurements have limited our understanding of the role of membrane tension on mechanosensation to date. While recent studies have attempted to resolve this limitation through the design of new tools that enable concurrent monitoring of mechanosensitive channel activation and membrane tension (Lüchtefeld et al. Nature Methods. 2024), these tools were not available to us during our study or now. Because our study also attempted to connect these two features (membrane tension and channel activation) but we lacked tools to do so simultaneously, we used two sets of measurements to separately uncover membrane mechanical properties and channel activation pressure.

      One reason it is difficult to measure membrane tension during a typical patch clamp study is because of limitations in the imaging equipment and pipettes used for this assay. The experiment is usually done by looking through the eyepiece and the pipette angle is around 45 degrees from the plane of the stage so it would be hard to visualize changes in the patch geometry in the tip of the pipette. Basically, we are able to see the pipette touch the GMPV, but cannot resolve the patch moving up the pipette. In response to the reviewer comment that tension=pressure difference times pipette radius divided by 2, we were unable to measure the radius and changes in radius of a patch upon increases in applied pressure due to the above mentioned imaging constraints. This limitation is why we were unable to directly measure applied tension with our current patch clamp set up.

      (4) Interfacial tension is not experimentally measured: Interfacial tension = K<sub>A</sub> /C where C is a constant (typically C=4 for bilayer membranes). The best way to measure interfacial tension is to determine K<sub>A</sub> (the area expansion modulus), which we have experimentally done by generating stress vs strain curves for GPMVs. In literature, reductions in interfacial tension of a membrane are typically experimentally determined by measuring a corresponding reduction in the associated K<sub>A</sub> value (eg. Ly and Longo. Biophys J. 2004). We have similarly followed this approach.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Therefore, their tool may be useful for stimulating multiple populations using a blue excitatory opsin in neuron A and their tool for red excitation of neuron B… Yet, there are no data presented that showcases their new tool for this purpose

      We agree with the reviewer that in this manuscript we have not experimentally shown the applicability of our system for dual optical stimulation. However, the suppression of blue-light excitation of ZipV/T-IvfChr-expressing neurons strongly suggests this can be used in experiments exciting populations of neurons similarly shown for BiPOLES. We don’t see a theoretical basis where this experiment cannot be done if sufficient cell targeting mechanisms (such as the use of cre-lox or retroAAV) is utilized. We have started several projects pursuing these utilities in the meantime.

      While they do show that red light = excitation and blue light = inhibition, they neither show 1) all-optical on/off modulation of the same cell; nor 2) high-frequency inhibition or excitation (max stim rate of 20hz, which is the same as the BiPOLES paper used for their LC stimulation paradigm; Vierock, as above, Figure 7a-d).

      Regarding point 1, we understand that the reviewer asks if we have optically excited (with red light) and inhibited (with blue light) the same neurons. If so, figure 4B1 (optical excitation of ZipT-IvfCh with red light) and figure 5A (optical inhibition of  ZipT-IvfCh with blue light) represent largely the same set of neurons.

      Regarding point 2, we respectfully disagree with the reviewer’s interpretation of Figure 7a-d) in Vierock et al. As we understand, in this part the authors apply a 20 Hz optical stimulation protocol to the LC neurons in vivo. However, there is no data showing that individual neurons do follow this stimulation protocol. To be clear, we are not saying that BiPOLES cannot drive 20 Hz APs. Very likely it can. It is based on ChrimsonR which is capable of doing so (Klapoetke et al., Figure 2). Although, in this manuscript we have not shown data for optical stimulation above 20Hz, our system is based on vfChrimson, which is known to drive AP of 100Hz and above (Mager et al., figure 2 and 3).  

      they must revise the manuscript to show that their approach is both 1) different in some way when compared to BiPOLES (it is my understanding that they did not do this, as per the supplementary alignment of the BiPOLES sequence and the sequence of the BiPOLES-like construct that they did test) and 2) that the properties that the investigators specifically tailored their construct to have confer some sort of experimental advantage when compared to the existing standard.

      In the latest version of the manuscript, we have compared our ZipV-IvfChr and the BiPOLES construct adapted with vfChrimson (Fig. 2 Suppl 1). The mean photocurrent amplitude of IvfChr in the ZipV-IvfChr construct is ~2.7 x higher than BiPOLES adapted with vfChrimson (14 randomly selected HEK293 cells in each group) (Fig. 2 Suppl 1B). We conducted this experiment in HEK293 cells to ensure accurate voltage-clamping and less biased cell selection. Even adjusting for the smaller photocurrent of vfChrimson vs ChrimsonR, this would still translate to ~1.6 x greater photocurrent with ZipV-IvfChr compared to the original BiPOLES utilizing ChrimsonR. We believe the increased efficiency of excitation is an important aspect of adapting vfChrimson for red-light excitation of neurons.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      (1) In the Introduction or Discussion, the authors could better motivate the need for a red-shifted actuator that lacks blue crosstalk, by giving some specific examples of how the tool could be productively used, e.g. pairing with another blue-shifted excitatory opsin in a different population, or pairing with a GFP-based fluorescent indicator, e.g. GCaMP. The motivation for the current tool is not obvious to non-experts.

      In the discussion, we now provided examples for potential use of the tool. For example, one of the key aspects that can be manipulated by the existing tool is the induction of spike-timing dependent plasticity with 2 wavelengths of light with blue light channelrhodopsin such as oChIEF is used to evoke presynaptic release and ZipT-IvfChr expressed in postsynaptic neuron. In this situation, the rapid termination of inhibitory response is critical so it does not interfere with the induction of LTP or LTD. Another experiment is the alternate control of projection neurons and interneurons in cortical areas, independent controls of neurons of direct and indirect pathways in the striatum to manipulate behavior.

      (2) Simultaneous excitation and inhibition are not the same as non-excitation. The authors mentioned shunting briefly. Another possible issue is changes in osmotic balance. Activation of a Na+ channel and a Cl- channel will lead to net import of NaCl into the cell, possibly changing osmotic pressure. Please discuss.

      We agree with the notion that osmotic, ionic and pH changes in small neuronal structure can be disruptive to the physiology and this is the reason we developed our approach where the fastest channelrhodopsins are used so we can minimize the channel opening time and the flux of ions through the channels when brief light illuminations are applied. Not only the flux of protons, sodium ions and calcium ions are minimized, the flux of chloride should be minimal as well (as the membrane potential should be close to the reversal potential of chloride reversal potential hence low ion flow). Hence our approach should be minimally disruptive compared to most other existing channelrhodopsin-based approaches when short or minimal light pulses were used in conjunction with our tools. This recommendation is included in the updated manuscript .

      (3) The authors showed that in ZipT-IvfChr, orange light drives excitation and blue light does not. But what about simultaneous blue and orange light? Can the blue light overwhelm the effect of the orange light? Since the stated goal is to open the blue part of the spectrum for other applications, one is now worried about "negative" crosstalk. Please discuss and, ideally, characterize this phenomenon.

      We now have performed this experiment. Simultaneous blue (470nm) and red light (635nm) stimulation does not produce AP (Fig .4 Suppl 1A)). This suggests the inhibitory effect of ACR is more efficient than the excitatory effects of IvfChr due to their higher conductance, this re-emphasizes the rapid termination of the ACR effects is critical for minimal disruption of physiological effects in such pairing strategy.

      (3.1) Does the use of the new tool require careful balancing of the expression levels of the ZipT and the IvfChr? Does it require careful balancing of blue and orange light intensities?

      As with any optogenetic tool, the users should validate the efficacy of the tool in their own system. Our tool solely relies on the balanced expression of the 2A system, the efficiency of the two opsins and their degradation of the time-span of expression. These aspects of the tool would be better addressed in future versions of the tools or improvement of the BiPOLES-type of tandem expression in subsequent versions. From the instrumentation side, the light intensity and differential penetration depth requires careful consideration. However, this holds true in most optogenetic and fluorescence imaging-based approaches as well. In the current update of the manuscript, we have included further discussion on these aspects as well.

      (3.2) Also, many opsins show complex and nonlinear responses to dual-wavelength illumination, so each component should be characterized individually under simultaneous blue + orange light.

      We now have performed this experiment (please see our comment to point 3)

      (3.3) I was expecting to see photocurrents at different holding potentials as a function of illumination wavelength for the coexpressed construct (i.e. to see at what wavelength it switches from being excitatory to inhibitory); and also to see I-V curves of the photocurrent at blue and orange wavelengths for the co-expressed constructs (i.e. to see the reversal potential under blue excitation). Overall, the patch clamp and spectroscopic characterization of the individual constructs was stronger than that of the combined constructs.

      We have added the IV curves for the co-expressed construct at different holding potentials for 470nm and 635nm wavelengths. This shows reverse potential for the two wavelengths that are intended for in vitro and in vivo applications. Performing a similar experiment for a variety of wavelengths would not be as valuable, in part, due to the enormous amount of data generated. As we have shown in the study, the response of any channelrhodopsins vary with different light duration and light intensities in addition to the wavelengths and holding potentials. The results for each recorded cell could include stimulation by different wavelengths, stimulation by different illumination intensities, stimulation with different light duration in addition to different holding potentials. Not only would the results be highly variable from cell-to-cell, there will be potentially hundreds or thousands of combinations to be tested per cell (e.g., 5 light intensities @1, 2.5 , 5 , 10 and 20 mW/mm>sup>2</sup>, 8 different wavelengths @ 450nm, 475nm, 500nm, 525nm, 550nm, 575nm, 600nm and 625nm, 7 light durations @ 1ms, 5ms, 10ms, 50ms, 100ms, 500ms and 1s, and , and 6 holding potentials @ -80mV, -70mV, -60mV, -40mV, -20mV and 0mV would result in 1680 stimulation conditions per recorded cell).Technically, the significant lowering of membrane resistance when both IvfChr and ZipACR variants are activated simultaneously would compromise the quality of voltage-clamping even in HEK293 cells with series resistance compensation. We have yet to see any other studies that had included such ambitious electrophysiology experiment for the channelrhodopsin characterization, likely due to the feasibility of such experiment.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      (1) The enhanced vf-Chrimson could potentially be a highlight of the manuscript, serving broader applications. Yet, gauging the overall improvements of ivf-Chrimson in comparison to other Chrimson variants remains intricate due to several reasons. First, photocurrents from ivf-Chrimson seem smaller than those from C-Chrimson (Supplemental Figure 3), and a direct comparison with standard vf-Chrimson is absent.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s positive view of our modified variant. We did not emphasize this particular modification as it was identical to our previous published modification and similar to that previously published by others (CsChrimson and C1Chrimson). In all these cases, improved membrane expression was consistently detected. We believe that expression data and our comparison of C-Chrimson and IvfChr is sufficient to justify the improved membrane expression and function.

      Second, while membrane expression of ivf-Chrimson appears enhanced in provided brightfield recordings, the quantitative analysis would necessitate confocal microscopy and a membrane marker (Supplemental Figure)

      We have now quantified the results with a membrane palmitoylated mCherry using confocal microscopy shown in Fig 2 Suppl1 A. We measured the Pearson Correlation Coefficient of the mCherry with EGFP or Citrine signal for the 6 constructs (vfChrimson, vfChrimson with trafficking sequence, vfChrimson with N-terminal signaling peptide from oChIEF (C-vfChrimson), vfChrimson with trafficking sequence and N-terminal signaling peptide from oChIEF (IvfChr), BiPOLES with EGFP or citrine and vfChrimson) and the results were identical and consistent with the prior results using epifluorescence microscopy.

      (2) Finally, other N-terminal modified Chrimson variants, like CsChrimson by Klapoetke et al. in 2014 and C1Chrimson by Oda et al. in 2018, have been generated. Comparing ivf-Chrimson to vf-CsChrimson or vf-C1Chrimson would be important to evaluate the benefits of the applied N-terminal modification.

      Our development of IvfChrimson is similar to the approach of vf-CsChrimson and identical to that of vf-C1Chrimson and we do not claim these modifications to be unique or superior. However, we have developed our design independently of these other studies and we have more extensive functional comparison and characterization data of our IvfChrimson variant than the other studies.

      (2.1) The action spectra of ZipACR suggest peak absorption of ZipACR WT and its mutant at 525 - 550 nm (Fig. 3). This is even further red-shifted than previously reported by Govorunova et al. Further action spectra recordings differ for all constructs between recordings initiated with blue or red light (Supplementary Fig. 5). This discrepancy is unexpected and should be discussed.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment, this was a mistake in the traces used for the figure. The example traces were the spectral response measured from the 400 nm to 650 nm instead of the 650 nm to 400 nm order shown in the spectral data. This has now been corrected.

      Additionally, the representative photocurrents of Zip(151V) in Fig. 3D1 do not align with the corresponding action spectrum in Fig. 3D2 as they show maximal photocurrents for 400 nm excitation.

      Please, see point above.

      (3) The authors introduce two different bicistronic expression cassettes-ZipT-IvfChR and ZipV-IvfChR-without providing clear guidelines on their conditions of use. Although the authors assert that ZipT is slower and further red-shifted than ZipV, the differences in the data for both ACR mutants are small and the benefits of the different final constructs should be explained.

      In our testing in neurons, ZipT has less ‘escaped’ spikes after the termination of the light pulses in the cells we have tested. However, this is dependent on the membrane properties such as capacitance and resistance of the cells. ZipV has a faster termination time and in some situations may be necessary due to its faster termination time and reduced disruption of physiological processes.

      We have now included this discussion in our updated manuscript.

      (4) The ZipT/V-IvfChRs are designed as bicistronic constructs; yet, disparities in membrane trafficking and protein degradation between the two channels could lead to divergences in blue and red light photoresponses. For future applicants, understanding the extent of expression ratio variations across cells using the presented expression cassettes could be of significance and should be discussed.

      We now have included this discussion in our responses above.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The Figure 1a mV cartoon traces for chloride are confusing. The chloride currents are depolarizing, not hyperpolarizing. As noted by the authors, these channels largely generate AP blockade through shunting inhibition (division), not hyperpolarization (subtraction).

      The figure has been corrected.

      (2) Figure 2A does not show where the light is applied. Why are some of the bars blue and some of them not filled?

      This has been corrected

      (3) Figure 2C1 does not show where the light is applied. There should be an inset to detail the blue-light-cessation-evoked AP. Also doesn't give the holding potential.

      The requested details are added.

      (4) Figure 2C2 inset is described as showing that "Light-induced currents with 470 nm illumination were initially outward but turned inward immediately following light offset." Is that correct? It looks to me like the current turns inward about half-way through the light pulse and then becomes even stronger after the light turns off. That is also consistent with the CC traces, which appear to show a transition toward depolarization during the light pulse before the AP initiation at light offset.

      Yes, the reviewer's observation is correct. There are blue light-induced outward and inward current peaks at the onset and offset of the light. Accordingly, we have modified the phrasing for Fig. 2C2.

      (5) Figure 3D1 shows that Zip(151V) has a peak current at 400nm, with a steady increase in current from red to blue, however, this is not the case in the summary data in 3D2. It's also not shown in Supplementary Figure 5B. What's going on?

      We apologize for the prior version of the figure associated with the first submission. The example traces from 400nm -> 650 nm were incorrectly included in the figure whereas the 650nm -> 400 nm example traces should be included. This has been corrected.

      (6) Figure 3D1 has no time scale.

      It is now been included

      (7) Figure 3E1 should read "Transduced" and not "Transfected"

      This has been corrected.

      (8) IvfChr fidelity drops off dramatically at 20hz...down to 50% efficiency of generating APs. This is described in the legend as "high frequency". Maybe the cart came before the horse in this figure...as it looks like in panel C that using less light power density improves fidelity in the dual opsin configuration with red light stimulation...why not use that power for the characterization? Did you try any higher frequencies? Or longer pulse widths? This is an important characterization to inform further use of the tool. This shortcoming isn't a cell-intrinsic limitation, as the 470nm stim with IVfChr was 100% successful at both 10hz and 20hz.

      It is known that red but not blue light pulses induce desensitization (optical fatigue) in red-shifted ChR variants. Indeed, one can reinstate the response to red light, by giving violet-blue light pulses (Fig 4. Suppl 2). We think this is the reason that the 470nm stimulation was more effective in inducing AP in cells expressing IvfChR. Higher light intensities induce greater desensitization, but are preferred for faster opening of channels and depolarization of neurons. This can explain why, in some situations, lower light intensities were more effective in producing APs when pulse trains were used. We have recordings from cells firing APs at 40Hz (not included). All these cells had high expression levels of the opsin.   

      (9) Figure 4D: why use 100ms pulse width? How do you know that this isn't causing depol block? Or some of the nefarious concerns that are raised in the discussion, such as "...disrupt[ion of] normal neuronal physiology and signal processing that occurs in millisecond time scale"?

      We used 100ms pulse duration to follow the published protocol that this experiment is based on (Lin et al., 2013, Nature Neuroscience). 

      (10) Figure 4E-bottom: What is the blue peak at light onset? Is the tool driving early activation before silencing?

      There seems to be an early, sharp and brief activation by blue light. We don’t know the definite cause of this, but we speculate this is driven by blue-light activation of ZipACR and not the IvfChr portion of the construct. The reason is that such a sharp rise is absent when only IvfChr is expressed (Fig. 4E, upper panel). Soma-targeted motif tethered to channelrhodopsins is known to result in preferential expression of channels close to soma but does not exclude the expression of channelrhodopsin in axonal and dendritic compartments, especially when animals are allow to recover for long period of time after viral injection. We believe that ZipACR at axonal terminals where the chloride concentration is high can still cause blue-light evoked depolarization and transmitter release. We observed this phenomenon in two mice in their first trial. The data for individual trials for each mouse are included in a supplementary table.

      (11) Figure 4G: Earlier in this same figure (B2, C), 470nm light was more effective at stimulating IvfChr than 635nm light. Is it unexpected that 638nm light would in this in vivo context be more effective at driving IvfChr responses than 450 nm light (at least as reflected by the AUC measurements)? Does this reflect fiber placement and light penetration/scattering?

      The spectral peaks of Chrimson-based variants including vfChrimson are all centered around 600 nm, and at 635 / 638 nm light, the amplitudes of photo-response decline, the channel onset slows, and the channels suffer greater desensitization. In isolated preparations where the light penetration is similar between 635 / 638 nm and 470 nm, 470 nm responses can outperform 635 / 638 nm responses due to its lack of desensitization and higher consistency in its response. This is also a strong reason that we have developed our current approach. In in vivo preparation shown in Fig. 4D-G, the much higher tissue penetration of 638nm light due to reduced absorption and reduced scattering can offset the performance of IvfChr to 450 nm light.  

      (12) In the methods, it is noted that different viral batches appear to generate different levels of neuronal toxicity. If that is the case, how did you differentiate between true differences between constructs vs. differential cell health effects?

      For figure 4D-F (whisker movement), we determined virus toxicity using NeuN staining. In slice recordings, we used the electrophysiological property of the neurons to assess their health. For this manuscript, we had one batch of virus that produced toxicity. We did not include any data from this batch.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      ● Define AUC on first use.

      It is now defined.

      ● Figure 3C2: Please explain how the photocurrents were normalized. As presented, it looks like under strong orange light, the ZipACR has higher photocurrent than the ivfChr.

      This is due to the fact vfChrimson and other Chrimson-based variants do not fully recover in the dark after 590 nm stimulation. We tested IvfChrimson with both reconditioning light pulse of 405 nm and without 405 nm and we can consistently reach a greater ‘maximal’ response from the same cell after 405 nm reconditioning (see Fig. 4 Suppl 2). We therefore normalize the response to the maximal recorded response of the cell often achieved with 10 or 20 mW/mm<sup>2</sup> 590 nm stimulation after 405 nm reconditioning. We understand this can be confusing and have now replaced the light-intensity response in Fig. 3C2 with the one with 405 nm reconditioning which is easier to interpret for the readers.

      ● P. 3: "As expected, blue light pulses induce transient membrane suppression..." Unclear what "suppression" means. Shunting? Hyperpolarization?

      We rephrased this to “As expected, blue light pulses transiently suppress APs…”

      ● P. 3: "illumination at 470 nm and 590 nm wavelengths led to similar amounts of courtship song (110.1 {plus minus} 12.8 and 78.5 {plus minus} 11.6,n = 16-17, respectively)". What are the units of "courtship song"?

      The unit for courtship song is the number of pulses per 10 seconds. This has been clarified in the figure.

      ● P. 5: The quantification of photocurrent in terms of pA/pF/A.U. is non-standard. I understand the impetus to normalize by expression to give something proportional to per-molecule conductance, but a user cares about overall photocurrent. Please also give the real photocurrents, either pA or pA/pF.

      We have provided the real photocurrent in pA or pA/pF where scientifically appropriate. To avoid selection and experimenter’s bias in our data, we did not set criteria for data elimination for cells with specific fluorescence intensity or photocurrent amplitude. Some resulting response can range from vary up to 20 folds from the same construct in many experiments. We do not believe that averaging absolute photocurrent amplitude would be justified due to the imbalance of weighing in the results. We do acknowledge that not selecting or eliminating data points would introduce higher noise in recordings with smaller responses but this is preferable over the selection or experimenter bias that is likely to be introduced otherwise.

      ● Please quote illumination intensities wherever possible.

      ● P. 7: why was the red light crosstalk into Zip(151T) tested at 635 nm instead of 590 nm? Isn't the relevant parameter 590 nm, since that will be used for the excitatory opsin?

      In all our characterizations of the constructs using slice electrophysiology recordings, we used 635nm instead of 590nm. The reason is that compared to 590nm wavelength, at 635nm the photocurrent for Zip(151T) and Zip(151V) is significantly reduced (Fig. 3D1,D2).

      ● P. 10: "we examined the power at which responses to 470 nm and 635 nm lights induce APs in neurons expressing ZipT-IvfChr, ZipV-IvfChr, or IvfChr", but the preceding sentence says you didn't test the ZipT-IvfChr. This is confusing, please clarify.

      The previous paragraph refers to the photocurrent recordings in HEK293 cells where our fast LED based illumination system is limited to 590 nm light, whereas the subsequent paragraph refers to the brain slice neuronal recordings. We have now emphasized the difference of the experiments in the rewrite.

      ● Fig. 4B1, top: Why don't the blue traces return to the same baseline after the stimulus epochs?

      We observed this shift in baseline (~4mV more depolarized) in cells expressing IvfChR (or vfChR) only with blue light stimulation. This was observed in the neurons recorded in the CA1 as well (data not shown). There was no such a change following red light stimulation (Fig. 4B1). Therefore, this should not affect the applicability of our construct. The original paper introducing vfChR did not test the responses of their constructs to blue light. There could be another photocycle state that is activated stronger by 470nm than 590nm and it has a slow off-rate, but this is only a speculation from our side. It must be noted we did not observe such a phenomenon in cells expressing ChrimsonR (Fig. 1 Suppl 1C).

      ● Fig. S3B, right: The two colors are barely distinguishable on the graph. Consider more distinct colors and/or different symbols.

      It has been changed accordingly.

      ● P. 15: "However, we do not recommend the use of orange light pulses, as we observed a significant photocurrent in this wavelength." Not clear what this is referring to. Which construct? Under which circumstances shouldn't one use orange light pulses? Where's the data showing this?

      This is referring to Fig. 3D1,D2 and Figure 4 suppl Fig. 2 which show a normalized ~40-50% photocurrent at 590nm. Now in the text, the reference figures for the data are added.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Audio et al. measured cerebral blood volume (CBV) across cortical areas and layers using high-resolution MRI with contrast agents in non-human primates. While the non-invasive CBV MRI methodology is often used to enhance fMRI sensitivity in NHPs, its application for baseline CBV measurement is rare due to the complexities of susceptibility contrast mechanisms. The authors determined the number of large vessels and the areal and laminar variations of CBV in NHP and compared those with various other metrics.

      Strengths:

      Non-invasive mapping of relative cerebral blood volume is novel for non-human primates. A key finding was the observation of variations in CBV across regions; primary sensory cortices had high CBV, whereas other higher areas had low CBV. The measured CBV values correlated with previously reported neuronal and receptor densities.

      Weaknesses:

      A weakness of this manuscript is that the quantification of CBV with postprocessing approaches to remove susceptibility effects from pial and penetrating vessels, as well as orientation dependency, is not fully validated, especially on a laminar scale. Further specific comments follow.

      We suspect that the comment regarding the lack of validation on laminar level stems from an error made by the corresponding author in the original bioRxiv submission (v1, May 17th https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.05.16.594068v1?versioned=true), where Figure 3 which contains laminar validation was lost during pdf conversion. After submitting to E-Life, this mistake was quickly identified, and a corrected manuscript was re-uploaded to the bioRxiv (v2, June 5th, https://doi.org/10.1101/2024.05.16.594068). Although we informed the eLife staff about the update, it appears that the revised manuscript may not have reached reviewer #1 in time. We sincerely apologize for any confusion or inconvenience this may have caused.

      (1) Baseline CBV indices were determined using contrast agent-enhanced MRI (deltaR2*). Although this approach is suitable for areal comparisons, its application on a laminar scale has not been validated in the literature or in this study. By comparing with histological vascular information of V1, the authors attempted to validate their approach. However, the generalization of their method is questionable. The main issue is whether the large vessel contribution is minimized by processing approaches properly in various cortical areas (such as clusters 1-3 in Figure 5). It would be beneficial to compare deltaR2* with deltaR2 induced by contrast agents in a few selected slices, as deltaR2 is supposed to be sensitive to microvessels, not macrovessels. Please discuss this issue.

      The requested validation is presented in Figure 3F, which compares our deltaR2* measurements with previously invasive estimates of large vessel, capillary and cytochrome oxidase (CO) levels in V1 (Weber et al., 2008; doi.org/10.1093/cercor/bhm259). Our deltaR2* values show a stronger correspondence with microvascularity and CO levels than large vessels. Moreover, Figure 3D illustrates relative differences between V1 and V2, which closely align with the relative vascular volume differences reported by Zheng et al., 1991. It is important to note that Weber and colleagues averaged across V2-V5 due to similar vascularity across these areas. In our material, we also observed similar vascularity in these areas, though V5 (e.g., MT) has slightly denser vascularity, in agreement with reports of CO staining.

      Additionally, we report similar GM/WM vascular density, and high vascular density in primary sensory areas. Unfortunately, available ground-truth data on vascularity does not provide further (general) validation data for laminar vasculature in macaques (such as those in cluster 1-3; Fig. 5). That said, we have provided substantial evidence linking whole-brain vascular measures with variations in neuron (for data distribution, see Supp. Fig. 6F) and receptor densities, which we believe provides strong support for our approach.

      We would like to clarify that the authors do not assert that gradient-echo MRI is exclusively sensitive to microvessels and not macrovessels. This is not stated anywhere in the manuscript. If any sentence appears misleading, please let us know, and we will consider revising it. It is well-established that large vessels contribute to ΔR2* (Ogawa et al., 1993; Boxerman et al., 1995), and this is clearly stated in the manuscript (introduction, methods, results and discussion) and demonstrated in Figures 2A, B, and Supp. Figs. 2, 3, and 4. The primary concern, as the reviewer also noted, is whether we have sufficiently minimized the contribution of large vessels in our parcellated data analysis.

      At the parcellated level, we used the median value to avoid skewness in the data distribution, which primarily arises from large vessels, as regions near these vessels exhibit higher ΔR2*. The skewness of ΔR2* is also visible in Figure 1F, G. While this approach mitigates this large-small vessel issue, it does not entirely resolve it, as a slight linear increase toward the cortical surface remains (in all parcels). This is likely due to our inability to delineate all penetrating vessels as shown in Figure 2E and because contrast agents cumulatively accumulate toward superficial layers where blood originates and returns to the pial surface. To mitigate this issue, we detrended across layers the parcellated profiles, obtaining results similar to the ground-truth measures of vascularity in V1-V5 and CO histology in V1.

      (2) High-resolution MRI with a critical sampling frequency estimated from previous studies (Weber 2008, Zheng 1991) was performed to separate penetrating vessels, which is considered one of the major advancements in this study. However, this approach is still insufficient to accurately identify the number of vessels due to the blooming effects of susceptibility and insufficient spatial resolution. There was no detailed description of the detection criteria. More importantly, the number of observable penetrating vessels is dependent on imaging parameters and the dose of the contrast agent. If imaging slices were obtained in parallel to the cortex with higher in-plane resolution, it would likely improve the detection of penetrating vessels. Using higher-field MRI would further enhance the detection of penetrating vessels. Therefore, the reported value is only applicable to the experimental and processing conditions used in this study. Detailed selection criteria should be mentioned, and all potential pitfalls should be discussed.

      We believe that Figure 2 represents a significant conceptual and data analysis advancement in the field of vascular imaging. To the best of our knowledge, this is the first MRI study attempting to assess vessel density across cortical layers and compare the number of vessels to the known ground-truth. While we do not claim to have achieved a perfect solution (as shown in Figure 2), we offer a robust challenge to the imaging community by introducing this novel benchmarking approach. Our hope is that this conceptual framework will inspire the MR imaging community to tackle this challenge.

      Regarding imaging parameters, TE did not have much effect on our results, with a slight effect observed in the superficial layers due to the presence of large pial vessels (blooming effect; Fig. 2C). This also suggests that similar results could be achieved by changing the contrast agent dose, though there are, of course, CNR requirements and limitations at either end of the spectrum.

      We completely agree with the reviewer that spatial resolution is critical in resolving the arterio-venous networks, and we have dedicated significant attention to this topic in the introduction, results and discussion sections. We also agree with the reviewer that if imaging slices were obtained in parallel to the cortex with higher in-plane resolution, it would improve the detection of vessels. However, while this approach is ideal for counting vessels in a single plane and isolated region of cortex, it is less suited to the surface mapping of vessels, which is the focus of our study.

      Regarding the exclusion of vessels, based on visual comparison of vessels in volume space, Frangi-filter detection of vessels in volume space, and surface detection of vessels, we found no evidence to develop additional exclusion criteria (Supp. Fig. 3). On the contrary, we identified a number of false negatives in both the surface maps and volume maps. Notable exceptions to this rule seemed to occur at premotor areas F2 and F3 (Matelli et al., 1984; Patterns of cytochrome oxidase activity in the frontal agranular cortex of the macaque monkey). In these regions, we observed peculiar “pockets” of signal drop-out in equivolumetric layers 4-5. It is unclear what these signal-voids represent but it is interesting to note that these cortical areas F1-F5 were originally delineated by distinct CO+ positive large cells (Matelli et al., 1984).

      (3) Attempts to obtain pial vascular structures were made (Figure 2). As mentioned in this manuscript, the blooming effect of susceptibility contrasts is problematic. In the MRI community, T1-based Gd contrast agents have been used for mapping large vasculature, which is a better approach for obtaining pial vascular structures. Alternatively, computer tomography with a blood contrast agent can be used for mapping blood vasculature noninvasively. This issue should be discussed.

      We agree with the reviewer that T1-based contrast agents may offer more precise direct localization of large vessels in pial vasculature. However, the primary focus of our study was not on visualizing pial vascular structures, but rather on measuring vascular volume across cortical layers. For this purpose, we opted to use ferumoxytol, which provides superior T2*-contrast and about ten times longer plasma half-life compared to gadolinium. While we anticipated artifacts from the pial network, we developed a novel method to indirectly map these long-distance susceptibility artifacts arising from large vessels onto the cortical surface (Fig. 2A). If the goal would be to specifically visualize pial vessels, we applaud the high-resolution TOF angiography developed for direct vessel visualization (Bollman et al., 2022; https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.71186)

      Changes in text:

      “4.1 Methodological considerations - vessel density informed MRI

      While the pial vessels can be directly visualized using high-resolution time-of-flight MRI (Bollmann et al., 2022), and computed tomography (Starosolski et al., 2015), imaging of the dense vascularity within the large and highly convoluted primate gray matter presents other formidable challenges. Here, we used a combination of ferumoxytol contrast agent and cortical layer resolution 3D gradient-echo MRI to map cerebrovascular architecture in macaque monkeys. These methods allowed us to indirectly delineate large vessels and indirectly estimate translaminar variations in cortical microvasculature.”

      (4) Since baseline R2* is related to baseline R2, vascular volume, iron content, and susceptibility gradients, it is difficult to correlate it with physiological parameters. Baseline R2* is also sensitive to imaging parameters; higher spatial resolution tends to result in lower R2* values (closer to the R2 value). Therefore, baseline R2* findings need to be emphasized.

      We agree with the reviewer's comment on the complexity of correlating baseline R2* with vasculature, given its sensitivity to multiple factors such as venous oxygenation, iron content, and imaging parameters such as image resolution. While our study focuses on vascular measurements, one could also highlight iron’s role in brain energy metabolism. Deoxygenated blood affects R2*, iron in oligodendrocytes supports myelination and neuronal signaling, and iron’s role in cytochrome c oxidase during electron transport impacts mitochondrial energy production. These metabolic factors collectively affect baseline R2* and link it to vasculature. Though quantitative susceptibility mapping (QSM) could help differentiate these different factors, it is beyond the scope of this study.

      (5) CBV-weighted deltaR2* is correlated with various other metrics (cytoarchitectural parcellation, myelin/receptor density, cortical thickness, CO, cell-type specificity, etc.). While testing the correlation between deltaR2* and these other metrics may be acceptable as an exploratory analysis, it is challenging for readers to discern a causal relationship between them. A critical question is whether CBV-weighted deltaR2* can provide insights into other metrics in diseased or abnormal brain states. If this is the case, then high-resolution deltaR2* will be useful. Please comment on this possibility.

      We agree with the reviewer that correlation deltaR2* with other metrics, such as myelin and cortical thickness, receptors and interneuron types, remains exploratory. Establishing causal relationships requires advanced multivariate analysis across cortical layers, but mapping histological stains to cortical layers is still under development. While this exploratory approach is promising, the ability to apply these insights to diseased or abnormal brain states is not yet clear. Layer-specific analysis of vasculature and function in disease is a future goal, and ongoing work aims to expand this line of inquiry. For now, while high-resolution deltaR2* may indeed offer diagnostic potential, we prefer to refrain from overstating its clinical utility at this stage. We agree that multimodal studies integrating neuroanatomy, function, and vascular metrics will be valuable for deeper insights into brain abnormalities.

      Changes in text:

      “4.3 The vascular network architecture is intricately connected to the neuroanatomical organization within cerebral cortex

      …To comprehensively understand the factors contributing to the vascular organization of the brain, experimental disentanglement through multivariate analysis of laminar cell types and receptor densities is needed (Hayashi et al., 2021, Froudist-Walsh et al., 2023).”

      (6) There is no discussion about the deltaR2* difference across subcortical areas (Figure 1). This finding is intriguing and warrants a thorough discussion in the context of the cortical findings.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have expanded discussion on subcortical structures:

      Section 4.3, 1st paragraph:

      “In the cerebral cortex, neurons account for a significant portion (≈80-90%) of energy demand, with most of this energy allocated to signaling (≈80%) and maintaining membrane resting potentials (≈20%) (Attwell and Laughlin, 2001; Howarth et al., 2012). Since firing frequency is modulatory and the neural networks utilize distributed coding, the maintenance of resting-state membrane potential determines the minimal energy budget and the lower-limit for cerebral perfusion. Based on neuronal variability and energy dedicated to maintaining surface potential, this suggest an approximate (4 × 20% ≈) 80% variation in CBF and a resultant 25% variation in CBV across the cortex, in line with Grubbs' law (CBV = 0.80 × CBF0.38) (Grubb et al., 1974). In the cerebellar cortex, neuron density is higher, and the resting potentials are thought to account for more than 50% of energy usage (Howarth et al., 2012), aligning with its higher vascular volume compared to the cerebral cortex (Fig. 1F). However, this is a simplified estimation, and a more comprehensive assessment would need to account for consider an aggregate of biophysical factors such as…”

      Section 4.3, 4th paragraph:

      “When viewed in terms of information flow, CBV appear to decrease along the canonical circuit pathway (e.g., L4→L2/3→L5) in the primary visual cortex (Douglas and Martin, 2007) and as one ascends the hierarchy (e.g., V1→V2→V3&4→MT→7A) from primary sensory areas (Fig. 3F, Supp. Fig. 8) (Felleman and Van Essen et al., 1991, Markov et al., 2014). A similar pattern is observed in the auditory hierarchy, where the inferior colliculus, an early processing hub, exhibits the highest vascular volume, followed by a gradual reduction along cortical auditory ‘where’ and ‘what’ pathways (Fig. 1F, Fig. 3B).”

      (7) Figure 3 is missing. Several statements in the manuscript require statistics (e.g., bimodality in Figure 2D, Figure 3F).

      We apologize to the reviewer for the absence of Figure 3 in the initial submission.

      As for statistical testing of bimodality, we respectfully disagree and feel that this would not add much value to the manuscript. We think a descriptive, rather than rigorous, approach is sufficient in this context.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript presents a new approach for non-invasive, MRI-based measurements of cerebral blood volume (CBV). Here, the authors use ferumoxytol, a high-contrast agent, and apply specific sequences to infer CBV. The authors then move to statistically compare measured regional CBV with the known distribution of different types of neurons, markers of metabolic load, and others. While the presented methodology captures an estimated 30% of the vasculature, the authors corroborated previous findings regarding the lack of vascular compartmentalization around functional neuronal units in the primary visual cortex.

      Strengths:

      Non-invasive methodology geared to map vascular properties in vivo.

      Implementation of a highly sensitive approach for measuring blood volume.

      Ability to map vascular structural and functional vascular metrics to other types of published data.

      Weaknesses:

      The key issue here is the underlying assumption about the appropriate spatial sampling frequency needed to capture the architecture of the brain vasculature. Namely, ~7 penetrating vessels / mm2 as derived from Weber et al 2008 (Cer Cor). The cited work begins by characterizing the spacing of penetrating arteries and ascending veins using a vascular cast of 7 monkeys (Macaca mulatta, same as in the current paper). The ~7 penetrating vessels / mm2 are computed by dividing the total number of identified vessels by the area imaged. The problem here is that all measurements were made in a "non-volumetric" manner and only in V1. Extrapolating from here to the entire brain seems like an over-assumption, particularly given the region-dependent heterogeneity that the current paper reports.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      - For broader readership, it would be beneficial to provide a guide on how to interpret baseline R2* versus ΔR2*.

      The text was edited as follows:

      “…For quantitative assessment, R<sub>2</sub>* values were estimated from multi-echo gradient-echo images acquired both before and after the administration of ferumoxytol contrast agent (Table 1). Subsequently, the baseline R<sub>2</sub>* and ΔR<sub>2</sub>*, an indirect proxy measure of CBV (Boxerman et al., 1995), volume maps for each subject were mapped onto the twelve native equivolumetric layers (ELs) (Fig. 1C). Each vertex was then corrected for normal of the cortex relative to B<sub>0</sub> direction (Supp. Fig. 1). Surface maps for each subject were registered onto a Mac25Rhesus average surface using cortical curvature landmarks and then averaged across the subjects (Fig. 1D, E). Around cortical midthickness, the distribution of R<sub>2</sub>*, an aggregate measure for ferritin-bound iron, myelin content and venous oxygenation levels (Langkammer et al., 2012), resembled the spatial pattern of ΔR<sub>2</sub>* vascular volume. However, across cortical layers, these measures exhibited reversed patterns: R<sub>2</sub>* increased toward the white matter surface, whereas ΔR<sub>2</sub> decreased (Fig. 1E, G).”

      - The legends in Figure 1 describe green/cyan arrows, which are not visible in the figure itself.

      We thank the reviewer for noting this discrepancy. The reference to green/cyan arrows was removed from the Figure 1 legend.

      - There are typos in Section 3.3: "(Figure 4A, E)" and "(cluster 3; Figure 3)" should be corrected to Figure 5.

      We thank the reviewer for noting this error. The references to the Figures were corrected.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The work is elegantly presented and very easy to follow. The figures and the data presented there are compelling and well-organized. I have enjoyed reading the paper, despite my disagreement with the validity of the methodology presented.

      Validation against MRA methods (high resolution needed here, Bolan et al 2006, cited also by the authors). Certainly, that work used a much higher magnetic field. This could be done through collaboration if such a magnet is not available. In my humble opinion, the current arguments provided in the paper as validation fall short in convincing future readers. Other TOF approaches might be better suited (in combination with line scanning or single plane sequences) for the 3T used in this work.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion regarding time-of-flight (TOF) angiography at ultra-high magnetic fields, such as 9.4T for improved visualization of fast-flowing blood in arterial vessels, as elegantly demonstrated in Bolan et al., 2006. However, our focus was on mapping vasculature across cortical layers and TOF is not optimal for imaging slow capillary blood inflow. To enhance CNR also at capillary level, we used ferumoxytol-contrast agent to create quantitative CBV-weighted cortical layer maps (Boxerman et al., 1995).

      We are open to collaborative opportunities to revisit this work using ultra-high magnetic field strengths and more detailed neuroanatomical ground-truth measures. However, the recommended line scanning or single-plane sequences, at least on first impression, seem inadequate for whole-brain coverage and cortical surface mapping.

      Some of the methodology can be made more accessible to non-MRI readers. For example, a more elaborate explanation of R2* and ΔR2 could benefit future readers.

      Elaborated as requested (see above reply).

      A more detailed discussion of the limitations of the methodology could also be beneficial here. Explain the potential implications of under-sampling denser vascular areas (i.e. with potentially more than 7 penetrating vessels per mm2).

      V1, with its highest neuronal density, likely also has the highest feeding/draining vessel density. Based on this, we hypothesized that a 0.23 mm isotropic image resolution would sufficiently capture cortical arterio-venous networks, but we did not achieve the expected detection of 7 penetrating vessels per mm<sup>2</sup>. Consequently, we refrained from quantifying vessel density in other areas, albeit we did report the total vessel count.

      This under-sampling likely biases our ΔR2* estimates, skewing them toward larger vessels. To address this, we used median parcel values to avoid over-representing large vessels (the long-tail in ΔR2 parcels data distribution represents large vessels) and corrected for the cortical surface bias where blood originates from and returns to the pial network. These steps helped mitigate large vessel bias as described in the methods, results and discussion (see also our response to Reviewer #1, question #1).

      To improve clarity for readers, we further clarified:

      Methods:

      “The effect of blood accumulation in large feeding arteries and draining veins toward in the superficial layers was estimated using linear model and regressed out from the parcellated ΔR<sub>2</sub>* maps.”

      Results:

      “To mitigate bias resulting from undersampling the large-caliber vessels (Fig. 2A, B), median parcel values were obtained and M132 parcellated ΔR2* profiles were then detrended across ELs in each subject and then averaged.”

      Discussion:

      “This methodology, however, has known limitations. First, gradient-echo imaging is more sensitized toward large pial vessels running along the cortical surface and large penetrating vessels, which could differentially bias the estimation of Δ R<sub>2</sub>* across cortical layers (Fig. 2A, 2B) (Boxermann et al., 1995; Zhao et al., 2006). Additionally, vessel orientation relative to the B<sub>0</sub> direction introduce strong layer-specific biases in quantitative ΔR<sub>2</sub>* measurements (Supp. Fig. 1C) (Ogawa et al., 1993; Viessmann et al., 2019; Lauwers et al., 2008). To address these concerns, we conducted necessary corrections for B<sub>0</sub>-orientation, obtained parcel median values and regressed linear-trend thereby mitigating the effect of undersampling large-caliber vessels across ELs (Fig. 2C, Supp. Fig. 1).” 

      Please note, we are currently unable to create BALSA links to the figures due to maintenance issues at the data repository. As a result, we have opted to remove the links:

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper investigates the effects of the explicit recognition of statistical structure and sleep consolidation on the transfer of learned structure to novel stimuli. The results show a striking dissociation in transfer ability between explicit and implicit learning of structure, finding that only explicit learners transfer structure immediately. Implicit learners, on the other hand, show an intriguing immediate structural interference effect (better learning of novel structure) followed by successful transfer only after a period of sleep.

      Strengths:

      This paper is very well written and motivated, and the data are presented clearly with a logical flow. There are several replications and control experiments and analyses that make the pattern of results very compelling. The results are novel and intriguing, providing important constraints on theories of consolidation. The discussion of relevant literature is thorough. In summary, this work makes an exciting and important contribution to the literature.

      Weaknesses:

      There have been several recent papers that have identified issues with alternative forced choice (AFC) tests as a method of assessing statistical learning (e.g. Isbilen et al. 2020, Cognitive Science). A key argument is that while statistical learning is typically implicit, AFC involves explicit deliberation and therefore does not match the learning process well. The use of AFC in this study thus leaves open the question of whether the AFC measure benefits the explicit learners in particular, given the congruence between knowledge and testing format, and whether, more generally, the results would have been different had the method of assessing generalization been implicit. Prior work has shown that explicit and implicit measures of statistical learning do not always produce the same results (eg. Kiai & Melloni, 2021, bioRxiv; Liu et al. 2023, Cognition).

      We agree that numerous papers in the Statistical Learning literature discuss how different test measures can lead to different results and, in principle, using a different measure could have led to varying results in our study. In addition, we believe there are numerous additional factors relevant to this issue including the dichotomous vs. continuous nature of implicit vs. explicit learning and the complexity of the interactions between the (degree of) explicitness of the participants' knowledge and the applied test method that transcend a simple labeling of tests as implicit or explicit and that strongly constrains the type of variations the results of  different test would produce. Therefore, running the same experiments with different learning measures in future studies could provide additional interesting data with potentially different results.

      However, the most important aspect of our reply concerning the reviewer's comment is that although quantitative differences between the learning rate of explicit and implicit learners are reported in our study, they are not of central importance to our interpretations. What is central are the different qualitative patterns of performance shown by the explicit and the implicit learners, i.e., the opposite directions of learning differences for “novel” and “same” structure pairs, which are seen in comparisons within the explicit group vs. within the implicit group and in the reported interaction. Following the reviewer's concern, any advantage an explicit participant might have in responding to 2AFC trials using “novel” structure pairs should also be present in the replies of 2AFC trials using the “same” structure pairs and this effect, at best, could modulate the overall magnitude of the across groups (Expl/Impl.) effect but not the relative magnitudes within one group. Therefore, we see no parsimonious reason to believe that any additional interaction between the explicitness level of participants and the chosen test type would impede our results and their interpretation.

      Given that the explicit/implicit classification was based on an exit survey, it is unclear when participants who are labeled "explicit" gained that explicit knowledge. This might have occurred during or after either of the sessions, which could impact the interpretation of the effects.

      We agree that this is a shortcoming of the current design, and obtaining the information about participants’ learning immediately after Phase 1 would have been preferred. However, we made this choice deliberately as the disadvantage of assessing the level of learning at the end of the experiment is far less damaging than the alternative of exposing the participants to the exit survey question earlier and thereby letting them achieve explicitness or influence their mindset otherwise through contemplating the survey questions before Phase 2. Our Experiment 5 shows how realistic this danger of unwanted influence is: with a single sentence alluding to pairs in the instructions of Exp 5, we  could completely change participants' quantitative performance and qualitative response pattern. Unfortunately, there is no implicit assessment of explicitness we could use in our experimental setup. We also note that given the cumulative nature of statistical learning, we expect that the effect of using an exit survey for this assessment only shifts absolute magnitudes (i.e. the fraction of people who would fall into the explicit vs. implicit groups) but not aspects of the results that would influence our conclusions.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Sleep has not only been shown to support the strengthening of memory traces but also their transformation. A special form of such transformation is the abstraction of general rules from the presentation of individual exemplars. The current work used large online experiments with hundreds of participants to shed further light on this question. In the training phase, participants saw composite items (scenes) that were made up of pairs of spatially coupled (i.e., they were next to each other) abstract shapes. In the initial training, they saw scenes made up of six horizontally structured pairs, and in the second training phase, which took place after a retention phase (2 min awake, 12 h incl. sleep, 12 h only wake, 24 h incl. sleep), they saw pairs that were horizontally or vertically coupled. After the second training phase, a two-alternatives-forced-choice (2-AFC) paradigm, where participants had to identify true pairs versus randomly assembled foils, was used to measure the performance of all pairs. Finally, participants were asked five questions to identify, if they had insight into the pair structure, and post-hoc groups were assigned based on this. Mainly the authors find that participants in the 2-minute retention experiment without explicit knowledge of the task structure were at chance level performance for the same structure in the second training phase, but had above chance performance for the vertical structure. The opposite was true for both sleep conditions. In the 12 h wake condition these participants showed no ability to discriminate the pairs from the second training phase at all.

      Strengths:

      All in all, the study was performed to a high standard and the sample size in the implicit condition was large enough to draw robust conclusions. The authors make several important statistical comparisons and also report an interesting resampling approach. There is also a lot of supplemental data regarding robustness.

      Weaknesses:

      My main concern regards the small sample size in the explicit group and the lack of experimental control.

      The sample sizes of the explicit participants in our experiments are, indeed, much smaller than those of the implicit participants due to the process of how we obtain the members of the two groups. However, these sample sizes of the explicit groups are not small at all compared to typical experiments reported in Visual Statistical Learning studies, rather they tend to be average to large sizes. It is the sizes of the implicit subgroups that are unusually high due to the aforementioned data collecting process. Moreover, the explicit subgroups have significantly larger effect sizes than the implicit subgroup, bolstering the achieved power that is also confirmed by the reported Bayes Factors that support the “effect” or the “no effect” conclusions in the various tests ranging in value from substantial to very strong.  Based on these statistical measures,  we think the sample sizes of the explicit participants in our studies are adequate.

      As for the lack of experimental control, indeed, we could not fully randomize consolidation condition assignment. Instead, the assignment was a product of when the study was made available on the online platform Prolific. This method could, in theory, lead to an unobserved covariate, such as morningness, being unbalanced between conditions. We do not have any reasons to believe that such a condition would critically alter the effects reported in our study, but as it follows from the nature of unobserved variables, we obviously cannot state this with certainty. Therefore, we added an explicit discussion of these potential pitfalls in the revised version of the manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      In this project, Garber and Fiser examined how the structure of incidentally learned regularities influences subsequent learning of regularities, that either have the same structure or a different one. Over a series of six online experiments, it was found that the structure (spatial arrangement) of the first set of regularities affected the learning of the second set, indicating that it has indeed been abstracted away from the specific items that have been learned. The effect was found to depend on the explicitness of the original learning: Participants who noticed regularities in the stimuli were better at learning subsequent regularities of the same structure than of a different one. On the other hand, participants whose learning was only implicit had an opposite pattern: they were better in learning regularities of a novel structure than of the same one. This opposite effect was reversed and came to match the pattern of the explicit group when an overnight sleep separated the first and second learning phases, suggesting that the abstraction and transfer in the implicit case were aided by memory consolidation.

      These results are interesting and can bridge several open gaps between different areas of study in learning and memory. However, I feel that a few issues in the manuscript need addressing for the results to be completely convincing:

      (1) The reported studies have a wonderful and complex design. The complexity is warranted, as it aims to address several questions at once, and the data is robust enough to support such an endeavor. However, this work would benefit from more statistical rigor. First, the authors base their results on multiple t-tests conducted on different variables in the data. Analysis of a complex design should begin with a large model incorporating all variables of interest. Only then, significant findings would warrant further follow-up investigation into simple effects (e.g., first find an interaction effect between group and novelty, and only then dive into what drives that interaction). Furthermore, regardless of the statistical strategy used, a correction for multiple comparisons is needed here. Otherwise, it is hard to be convinced that none of these effects are spurious. Last, there is considerable variation in sample size between experiments. As the authors have conducted a power analysis, it would be good to report that information per each experiment, so readers know what power to expect in each.

      Answering the questions we were interested in required us to investigate two related but separate types of effects within our data: general above-chance performance in learning, and within- and across-group differences.

      Above-chance performance: As typical in SL studies, we needed to assess whether learning happened at all and which types of items were learned. For this, a comparison to the chance level is crucial and, therefore, one-sample t-test is the statistical test of choice. Note that all our t-tests were subject to experiment-wise correction for multiple comparisons using the Holm-Bonferroni procedure, as reported in the Supplementary Materials.

      Within- and across-group differences: To obtain our results regarding group and par-type differences and their interactions, we used mixed ANOVAs and appropriate post-hoc tests as the reviewer suggested. These results are reported in the method section.

      Concerning power analysis, in the revised version of the manuscript we added analysis of achieved power for the statistical tests most critical to our arguments.

      (2) Some methodological details in this manuscript I found murky, which makes it hard to interpret results. For example, the secondary results section of Exp1 (under Methods) states that phase 2 foils for one structure were made of items of the other structure. This is an important detail, as it may make testing in phase 2 easier, and tie learning of one structure to the other. As a result, the authors infer a "consistency effect", and only 8 test trials are said to be used in all subsequent analyses of all experiments. I found the details, interpretation, and decision in this paragraph to lack sufficient detail, justification, and visibility. I could not find either of these important design and analysis decisions reflected in the main text of the manuscript or in the design figure. I would also expect to see a report of results when using all the data as originally planned.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out these critical open questions our manuscript that need further clarification. The inferred “consistency effect” is based on patterns found in the data, which show an increase in negative correlation between test types during the test phase. As this is apparently an effect of the design of the test phase and not an effect of the training phase, which we were interested in, we decided to minimize this effect as far as possible by focusing on the early test trials. For the revised version of the manuscript, we revamped and expanded the discussion of how this issue was handled and also add a short comment in the main text, mentioning the use of only a subset of test trials and pointing the interested reader to the details.

      Similarly, the matched sample analysis is a great addition, but details are missing. Most importantly, it was not clear to me why the same matching method should be used for all experiments instead of choosing the best matching subgroup (regardless of how it was arrived at), and why the nearest-neighbor method with replacement was chosen, as it is not evident from the numbers in Supplementary Table 1 that it was indeed the best-performing method overall. Such omissions hinder interpreting the work.

      Since our approach provided four different balanced metrics (see Supp. Tables 1-4) for each matching method, it is not completely straightforward to make a principled decision across the methods. In addition, selecting the best method for each experiment separately carries the suspicion of cherry-picking the most suitable results for our purposes. For the revised version, we expanded on our description of the matching and decision process and added supplementary descriptive plots showing what our data looks like under each matching method for each experiment. These plots highlight that the matching techniques produce qualitatively roughly identical results and picking one of them over the other does not alter the conclusions of the test. The plots give the interested reader all the necessary information to assess the extent our design decisions influence our results.

      (3) To me, the most surprising result in this work relates to the performance of implicit participants when phase 2 followed phase 1 almost immediately (Experiment 1 and Supplementary Experiment 1). These participants had a deficit in learning the same structure but a benefit in learning the novel one. The first part is easier to reconcile, as primacy effects have been reported in statistical learning literature, and so new learning in this second phase could be expected to be worse. However, a simultaneous benefit in learning pairs of a new structure ("structural novelty effect") is harder to explain, and I could not find a satisfactory explanation in the manuscript.

      Although we might not have worded it clearly, we do not claim that our "structural novelty effect" comes from a “benefit” in learning pairs of the novel structure. Rather, we used the term “interference” and lack of this interference. In other words, we believe that one possible explanation is that there is no actual benefit for learning pairs of the novel structure but simply unhindered learning for pairs of the novel structure and simultaneous inference for learning pairs of the same structure. Stronger interference for the same compared to the novel structure items seems as a reasonable interpretation as similarity-based interference is well established in the general (not SL-specific) literature under the label of proactive interference.

      After possible design and statistical confounds (my previous comments) are ruled out, a deeper treatment of this finding would be warranted, both empirically (e.g., do explicit participants collapse across Experiments 1 and Supplementary Experiment 1 show the same effect?) and theoretically (e.g., why would this phenomenon be unique only to implicit learning, and why would it dissipate after a long awake break?).

      Across all experiments, the explicit participants showed the same pattern of results but no significant difference between pair types, probably due to insufficiency of the available  sample sizes. We already included in the main text the collapsed explicit results across Experiments 1-4 and Supplementary Experiment 1 (p. 16).  This analysis confirmed that, indeed, there was a significant generalization for explicit participants across the two learning phases. We could re-run the same analysis for only Experiment 1 and Supplementary Experiment 1, but due to the small sample of  N=12 in Suppl. Exp. 1, this test will be likely completely underpowered. Obtaining the sufficient sample size for this one test would require an excessive number (several hundreds) of new participants.

      In terms of theoretical treatment, we already presented our interpretation of our results in the discussion section, which we expanded on in the revised manuscript.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) It would be very useful to add individual data points (and/or another depiction of the distribution) to the bar plots. If not in the main figures, as added figures in the supplement.

      We added violin plots for all results in the Supplementary.

      (2) It would be helpful to include in the supplement some examples of responses that led to the 'explicit' or 'implicit' classification. Specifically, what kind of response was considered to contain a partial recognition of the underlying structure vs. no recognition?

      We added example responses used for classification in the Supplementary.

      (3) It would be useful to show the results of Experiment 5 as well as the diagonal version as supplemental figures.

      We added the requested figures in the Supplementary.

      Typos: page 10: "in in the tests", page 15: "rerun"

      Fixed.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) My strongest reservation relates to the small sample size in the explicit group. The authors do report stats for all experiments together in one analysis and I think this is the only robust finding for this group. I would suggest removing any comparisons between this smaller group and the larger implicit group since they do not make a lot of sense due to the imbalance in sample size in my opinion. If they do want to report the explicit group individually for each experiment, they should at least test for differences between the experiments also for this group using ANOVA.

      We do agree that the unbalanced nature of the sample sizes can be problematic for the between-group comparisons. The t-tests reported for between-group comparisons are in fact Welch’s t-test better suited for unequal sample sizes and variances. Previously, we failed to report that these t-tests were Welch’s t-test, which we fixed in the revised version.

      In the Supplementary, we previously reported an ANOVA including all explicit participants from all experiments. This showed a significant main effect of Experiment and test type, but no significant interaction. We take this as evidence that although specific levels of learning vary by experimental condition, the overall pattern of learning (i.e. which pairs are learned better) are the same across all experiments.

      (2) Moreover, the explicit group does not only differ in the explicitness of their memory but also regarding learning performance per se (as evidenced by performance differences for the first training). This important confound needs to be acknowledged and discussed more thoroughly!

      We agree that this topic is important, this is why the subsection “The Type of Transfer Depends on Quality of Knowledge, Not Quantity of Knowledge” deals exclusively with this issue. See our reply to the next point.

      (3) The resampling approach is somewhat interesting to solve the issue raised in 2. However, I doubt that the authors actually achieve what they are claiming. Since we have a 2-AFC task the possibility must be considered that participants who chose correctly in the implicit group did so by chance. This means that the assumption that the matched pairs actually have the same amount of memory for the first training period as the explicit group is likely false. Therefore, this analysis is still comparing apples and oranges.

      We address this idea in detail in the supplementary materials pointing out first that the matched results showed the same pattern as the full results suggesting that Phase 1 and Phase 2 results are independent for this group, and by arguing that randomly selected subset of participants should not show a significant deviation from null performance in the Same vs. Novel performance in Phase 2.

      (4) One important issue, when conducting online experiments is assuring random allocation of participants. How did the authors recruit participants to ensure they did not select participants for the different experiments that differed regarding their preference for wake vs. sleep retention intervals? If no care was taken in this regard, I would suggest reporting this and maybe briefly discussing it.

      This shortcoming was now reported and addressed in the discussion section of the revised manuscript.

      (5) I could not find any information about the exact questions that were asked about the task rules. Also, there was no information on how the answers were used to assign groups. Both should be added.

      The exact questions were added to the revised Supplementary.

      (6) I think that the literature on sleep and rule extraction is well-represented in the manuscript. However, I think also referring more thoroughly to the literature on how sleep leads to gist extraction, schemas, and insight would help understand the relevance of the present research.

      We subsumed references to the mentioned areas of research under the labels of abstraction and generalization. In the revised section, we listed the appropriate labels along with the already used references to make the connection to a vast literature treating generalization in related but distinct ways more explicit.

      (7) It is unclear to me why the items learned in the first learning phase interfere with those learned in the second learning phase (without sleep) and not vice versa. What is the author's explanation for this?

      We added a paragraph on this to our revised discussion section. In short, there may also be retroactive interference. However, we would need yet another variation of the paradigm to properly measure it, and this was outside the scope of the current work.

      (8) As far as I can tell the study lacks all of the usual control tasks that are used in the field of sleep and memory (especially subjective sleepiness and objective vigilance). In addition, this research has the circadian confound, and therefore additional controls would have been warranted, e.g., morningness-eveningness, retrieval capabilities. Also, performance immediately after training phase 1 was not tested, which would serve as an important control for circadian differences in initial learning of the rule.

      The study uses a number of the control measures established in the sleep and memory literature, such as habitual sleep quality and sleep quality during the night of and the night before the experiment. However, there are, of course, more potentially interesting measures, such as the ones named by the reviewer.

      Testing performance right after training phase 1 would have been very interesting indeed. However, due to the nature of statistical learning tasks, this would have completely confounded the implicitness of learning by presenting participants with segmented input; i.e. isolated pairs. Therefore, we opted for the lesser of two evils in our design decision.

      (9) As far as I can tell, there is no effect of sleep on correctly identifying pairs from training phase 1. This would be expected and thus should be discussed.

      As noted and referenced in the discussion section, the effect of sleep on statistical learning per se is a subject of controversy in the literature, where some studies apparently find effects, while others find no effect on statistical learning whatsoever.

      (10) The manuscript should explicitly mention if the study was preregistered.

      It was not.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The topic of this project is close to my heart, and I commend the authors for conducting numerous variations of the experiment with large sample sizes. I have some suggestions I feel will make the paper stronger, and a few minor comments that caught my eye during reading:

      (1) First and foremost, I found the paper's structure cumbersome. For instance, different aspects of Experiment 1 results are reported in (1) the main text, (2) under methods, and (3) in Supplementary. This makes reading unnecessarily difficult. This relates not only to the analysis results - the sample size is reported as 226 in the main text, 226+3 in Methods, and 226+3+19 in Supplementary. I strongly suggest removing all results from the Methods section and merging the supplementary results with the main results.

      We overhauled the structure of the paper, moving much more information into the proper method section and out of the Supplementary.

      (2) "Attention checks" and "response bias" appear first in Supplementary Experiment 1 but are explained only later under Experiment 1. The same thing for the experimental procedure. I therefore suggest placing Experiment 1 before Supplementary Experiment 1, but related to my previous comment - have one paragraph dedicated to Subject Exclusion of all experiments.

      The new structure of the Method sections solves this.

      (3) Figure 4 is mentioned but does not appear in the manuscript.

      This has been fixed. The paragraph in question now references the correct supplementary figure.

      (4) OSF project includes only data with no README file on how to understand the data. The work would also benefit from sharing the experimental and analysis codes.

      A README file was added.

      (5) This sentence is repeated in relation to four experiments: "Bayes Factors from Bayesian t-tests for implicit participants reported for experiments 1, 2, and 3 used an r-scale parameter of 0.5 instead of the default √2/2, reflecting that Experiment 1 found small effect sizes for this group". First, it is missing an explanation of what the r-scale means. Second, it sounds as if this was a product of the procedure, but in fact it was a decision by the researcher if I am correct. If so, it is missing a description of how and why this choice was made.

      This was indeed a decision by the researchers, in line with a Baysian logic of evidence accumulation. We made the explanation in the paper clearer.

      (6) Did I understand correctly that each pair was tested 4 times? Was it against the same foil? Did you make sure not to repeat the same pair in back-to-back trials? These details, in addition to what I noted in the public review, are needed.

      Each pair was tested 4 times. Each time against a different foil pair. Details have been added to the Method section.

      (7) Also in relation to my public review, I could not understand why the sample size was overshot by so much in Experiment 1 (229 instead of 198.15)?

      The calculated sample size of 198.15 was for the implicit subgroup alone, while 229 included explicit and implicit participants.

      (8) The correlation between phase 1 and phase 2 is only tested in explicit participants. Why is that? A test in implicit participants is needed for completeness.

      Correlations for implicit participants have been added.

      (9) There is known asymmetry between the horizontal and vertical plains in our visual system (with preference for horizontal stimuli). I was missing a comparison between learning in the two structures, and a report of how many participants received either in Phase 1.

      The allocation of participants to horizontal and vertical conditions was balanced. In the Method section we already report an ANOVA testing for a potential effect of orientation condition, which was not significant.

      Minor/aesthetic comments:

      (1) "In Phase 2, explicit participants performed above chance for learning pairs that shared their higher level orientation structure with that of pairs in Phase 1". This sounds as if there was a separate test following the two learning phases. Perhaps reword to "for phase 2 pairs".

      Fixed

      (2) "the two asleep-consolidation groups (Exp. 3 and 4)" - I think you mean Exp. 2 and 4.

      Fixed.

      (3) "acquiring explicitness in Experiment 5 as compared to 1" I think you mean Supplementary Experiment 1 as compared to 1.

      Fixed

      (4) "without such a redescription, the previously learned patterns in Phase 1 interfere with new ones in Phase 2, when redescription occurs..." The comma should be a dot.

      Fixed

      (5) In Experiment 4, did 168 or 169 participants survive exclusion? Both accounts exist, and so do reports of degrees of freedom that allow both 23 and 24 explicit participants.

      Fixed.

      (6) "Implicit learners also performed above chance.." in Experiment 2 is missing (n=XX).

      Fixed.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public reviews:

      We are grateful to the reviewers and the editorial team for their feedback and thorough revisions of our paper. We also appreciate their acknowledgement that this study represents a significant advancement in the field of reproductive neuroendocrinology and offers insights on the contribution of obesity vs melanocortin signaling in women’s fertility. In the revised version, we will provide a more detailed clarification of the data and methodology and adhere to the reviewers’ suggestions.

      Please find below our answers to specific concerns in the public review:

      Given the fact that mice lacking MC4R in Kiss1 neurons remained fertile despite some reproductive irregularities, the overall tone and some of the conclusions of the manuscript (e.g., from the abstract: "... Mc4r expressed in Kiss1 neurons is required for fertility in females") were overstated. Perhaps this can be described as a contributing pathway, but other mechanisms must also be involved in conveying metabolic information to the reproductive system.

      We will tone down these statements throughout the manuscript to indicate that MC4R in Kiss1 neurons plays a role in the metabolic control of fertility (rather than “…is required for fertility”)

      The mechanistic studies evaluating melanocortin signalling in Kiss1 neurons were all completed in ovariectomised animals (with and without exogenous hormones) that do not experience cyclical hormone changes. Such cyclical changes are fundamental to how these neurons function in vivo and may dynamically alter the way they respond to neuropeptides. Therefore, eliminating this variable makes interpretation difficult.

      Mice lack true follicular and luteal phases and therefore it is impossible to separate estrogen-mediated changes from progesterone-mediated changes (e.g., in a proestrous female). Therefore, we use an ovariectomized female model in which we can generate a LH surge with an E2-replacement regimen [1]. This model enables us to focus on estrogen effects, exclude progesterone effects, and minimize variability. Inclusion of cycling females would make interpretation much more difficult.

      (1) Bosch et al., 2013 Mol & Cell Endo; https://doi.org/10.1016/j.mce.2012.12.021

      Use of the POMC-Cre to target ontogenetic inputs to Kiss1 neurons might have targeted a wider population of cells than intended.

      POMC is transiently expressed during embryonic development in a portion of cells fated to be Kiss1 or NPY/AgRP neurons [1-2]. Therefore, this is a valid concern when crossing with a floxed mouse. However, use of AAVs in adult animals avoids this issue and leads to specific expression in POMC neurons [3]. This POMC-Cre mouse has been used extensively with AAVs to drive specific expression in POMC neurons by other laboratories [4-7]. Therefore, we are confident that our optogenetic studies have narrowly targeted POMC inputs.

      (1) Padilla et al., 2010 Nat Med; https://doi.org/10.1038/nm.2126

      (2) Lam et al., 2017 Mol Metab; https://doi.org/10.1016/j.molmet.2017.02.007

      (3) Stincic et al., 2018 eNeuro; https://doi.org/10.1523/eneuro.0103-18.2018

      (4) Fenselau et al., 2017 Nat Neuro; https://doi.org/10.1038/nn.4442

      (5) Rau & Hentges, 2019 J Neuro; https://doi.org/10.1523/jneurosci.3193-18.2019

      (6) Fortin et al., 2021 Nutrients; https://doi.org/10.3390/nu13051642

      (7) Villa et al., 2024 J Neuro; https://doi.org/10.1523/jneurosci.0222-24.2024

      Recommendations for Authors

      We thank the reviewers and the editorial team for their comments and thorough revisions of our paper. We have now addressed their comments and edited the manuscript accordingly:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      L80 -This is an awkward sentence; it isn't an inverse agonist of the AgRP; this may read better just to say that the inverse agonist, AgRP.

      Thank you for this comment. This has now been changed in the text (L80).

      L86 - This text reads as if mice have an inherent obesity issue.

      This has also now been addressed in the text (L86).

      L131 - The numbers of digits past the decimal point should match for both mean and SEM.

      This has also now been addressed throughout the text.

      Figure 1D: Revise the bar graphs with distinct SEM bars, as these data are not generated within the same mice.

      The graphs are now changed, and they include distinct SEM and individual data points.

      Figure 2I-L - An n of 3 for controls is pretty minimal, though the clustering of data points is tight.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment, and we emphasize that while we agree that an n=3 for controls is minimal, the mRNA level values of this group are close, therefore the clustering of the data points is tight. We are happy to provide the raw data value for these groups if the reviewer wishes to.

      L159 - The role of reduced dynorphin mRNA is pretty speculative with regard to basal levels of LH, especially since no other indices of LH secretion were affected. It should also be recognized that mRNA levels do not always equate to activity.

      We agree with the reviewer that our explanation of the role of the reduced dynorphin with regards to the elevated basal LH is speculative, however, we only report that the higher LH levels correlates with the lower expression of the Pdyn gene expression, which is in line with the well documented role of Dynorphin on inhibiting LH secretion. We also recognize that mRNA levels don’t necessarily reflect activity. We have now added this statement to the text (L159).

      L164 - Given the ovary data, it seems that the increase seen in KO mice isn't quite sufficient, but is it known how much of a surge is necessary for ovulation in mice?

      We agree with the reviewer’s comment that the LH surge in Kiss1MC4RKO group is not enough to consistently induce ovulation, which is supported by the decrease in the numbers of corpora lutea data (Figure 2, O).

      According to literature, an LH surge in the female mice is estimated by a LH value >4 ng/ml (Bahougne et al., 2020). According to this rule, our data show that only two females out of six had LH surge in the KO group, while four females out of five had LH surge in the control group.  

      L211 - According to the figure, LH pulses were not recovered and remained similar to KO levels. Looking at the LH secretory patterns presented, it seems like the pulse frequency data should be interpreted with some caution, given that some of the pulses identified are tenuous at best.

      We agree that the LH pulses identified by our software (criteria described in the methods) are variable in shape (LH pulses are difficult to detect clearly in gonad intact females) and did not differ in number between groups; however, the reinsertion of Mc4r within Kiss1 neurons restored LH basal levels, amplitude and total secretory mass, which are clear indicatives of a significant improvement in the ability of these mice to release LH.

      L218 - Is there a reason why the surge was not looked at in these groups?

      Ovarian histology is the best indicator of ovulation. In these mice, corpora lutea were absent, indicating impaired ovulation, thus, we did not consider performing an LH surge protocol was necessary.

      L244 - This would also fit with previous findings in sheep that not all Kiss neurons express MC receptors

      We agree with this comment.

      L329 - Given the rapidity of its actions, how would this membrane ER function during a normal surge?

      Rapid estrogen signaling can act to ease transitions between states. Membrane delimited E2 actions can quickly attenuate or enhance coupling between receptors and signaling cascades. These effects will precede E2-driven changes in gene expression that produce more stable alterations in signaling. This combination of mechanisms will reduce any lag between rises in serum E2 and physiological effects. Considering the abbreviated mouse reproductive cycle, parallel mechanisms acting on different timescales are particularly important.

      L365 - I'm a little confused as to how this particular work sheds light on a role for MC3R. Is the relative distribution of the two isoforms within Kiss neurons known?

      In the present study, we report that hypothalamic Mc3r expression decreases leading up to the age of puberty onset (p30), in line with the profile of expression of Mc4r and a recent publication involving Mc3r in puberty onset (Lam et al., 2021), suggesting that both receptors may be involved in the control of reproductive function, potentially through the direct regulation of Kiss1 neurons as characterized in our present study.

      L422 - While I understand the nature of this statement, the receptor may simply reflect the activity of what binds to it, i.e., AgRP vs. alpha-MSH, suggesting that maybe the prepubertal period is more AgRP-dominated.

      We agree with this statement, and this needs to be further investigated.

      L495 - Reinsertion of Mc4R in Kiss1 neurons

      Thank you for this comment. This is now corrected in the text (L501).

      L524 - Bilateral ovariectomy of 6-month

      Thank you for this comment. This is now corrected in the text (L530).

      L538 - Is it known what stage of the cycle these mice were in when samples were collected?

      Yes, the samples were collected in diestrus. This is now mentioned in the text (L548)

      L556 - Pulse amplitude is usually measured relative to the preceding nadir.

      The method that we have been consistently using in our lab is the average of the 4 highest LH values in the samples collection period for each animal. We have found this to be consistent and representative of the overall amplitude (McCarthy et al., 2021; Talbi et al., 2021).

      L594 - This is a little confusing - the whole MBH would contain the ARH, but only the ARH was collected from the KO mice. If the whole MBH, dynorphin and Tac3, and Tac3 are expressed outside of the ARC, making interpretation of changes specifically within the ARH is difficult.

      Here (L592), we describe two different experiments, as mentioned by i) and ii).

      For experiment 1 (i): MBH was used in the WT mice at ages P10, P15, P22 and P30 to investigate the expression of the melanocortin genes (Agrp, Pomc, Mc3r and Mc4r).

      For experiment 2 (ii): In both KO and control groups, only the micro-dissected ARH was used to investigate genes expressions of Pdyn, Kiss1, Tac2, Tacr3.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The validation experiments for the various manipulations are currently presented in the supplementary data. Still, in my opinion, these are critically important for interpreting the data, and it should be considered to present these more comprehensively in the main body of the manuscript. In Figure S1, it seems that the exposure of the two images is not the same, with a higher background in the control. Has this image been adjusted to highlight the staining, while the other has not? It looks like there remains a low level of expression still present in at least some of the KO cells - this may reflect difficulties using RNAscope (with its extreme amplification) to detect the absence of a signal, or it could also be that the knockout is incomplete. A percentage of cells still express MC4R. I think this should be acknowledged or discussed.

      We thank the reviewer for the feedback. While we agree that the validation of the mouse model is critical, we would like to keep it in the supplemental data.

      We also agree that the exposure looks different between the KO and WT controls, and we thank the reviewer for this comment. The quality of the photograph decreased when transferring to the manuscript. This has now been improved in the revised figure.

      As for the MC4R expression in some of the KO cells, we believe that MC4R is expressed in non Kiss1 cells as shown in the merged figure. Therefore, we believe that the Knockout of Mc4r in Kiss1 neurons is complete in these mice.

      The clear difference from the PVN's lack of effect is convincing and indicates that a specific knockout has been achieved. Is equivalent data also available for the AVPV population of cells that are examined later in the manuscript? Do those Kiss1 neurons also express the MC4R? The same question applies to the knock-in experiment: Was the expression of MC4R also driven in the AVPV population using this approach

      Yes, Kiss1 neurons in the AVPV also express MC4R as indicated in this study, and thus Mc4r is removed/reinserted in the AVPV as well in this mouse model.

      The quantitative RT-qPCR data on developmental changes in metabolic signaling molecules are really peripheral to the paper's main question. Relative to the validation experiments (as discussed above), I think these are less important data and could be placed into a supplementary figure. The discussion of these data becomes problematic, e.g., on line 359, the changes are described as "a low melanocortin tone..." but this seems problematic when referring to reduced expression of AgRP, an inverse agonist at the MC4R. If you are going to present these data, individual data points should be shown. Similarly, the question about whether this is a PCOS-like phenotype is perhaps worth asking. Still, the simple assessment of T and AMH could also be reported in a sentence without necessarily showing the data (or placing it in a supplementary figure). Better to focus on the key question - which is the role of MC4R signaling in Kiss1 neurons.

      We understand this reviewer’s concerns, however, due to the impact of MC4R signaling (particularly in the context of AgRP) on puberty, we strongly believe that the reader will benefit from expression profile across ages so we will respectfully disagree and keep in the main figure.  

      Per this reviewer’s comment, we have now added individual data points to Figure 1D.

      We also agree with the reviewer that the T and AMH data are not in the main scope of the paper, but since we uncovered a PCOS-like phenotype in female mice with specific deletion of Mc4r from Kiss1 neurons, it is important to keep these data in the main figure to show that the phenotype does not fully resemble a PCOS model.

      Having praised the experimental design, I think it is fair to acknowledge that the reproductive data from these experiments remain difficult to interpret. I understand that it is difficult to illustrate estrous cycles, but the "quantitative" data on percentages of time spent in any one stage are not as informative as seeing the actual individual patterns in Figure 2B. Were all of the animals consistently like the one illustrated, with persistent diestrus and only occasional evidence of ovulation?

      We agree that Figure 2C may be difficult to interpret but it is the best way to capture the all the data points for each group.

      All the 5 Kiss1MC4RKO females had persistent diestrus phases with only one or two estrus phases over 15 days (except for one female who had 4 estrous days), compared to control females who had 7 to 9 days of estrous, as shown in the graph (except for one female who had 5 days of estrus over 15 days period).

      Given that LH pulses appear to be normal, does this, in fact, suggest an ovarian problem? Is that possible? Are MC4R and Kiss1 co-expressed in the ovary? Or do you think this suggests an ovulation problem, perhaps driven by the impaired LH surge?

      This reviewer is correct in that our findings suggest a central defect in ovulation based on the deficit observed in the preovulatory LH surge. Thus, it is possible to have normal LH pulses, which are driven by one population of Kiss1 neurons (ARH) and the LH surge, driven by a distinct population of Kiss1 neurons (AVPV).

      Similarly, the response to the "LH surge induction protocol" is impaired (why not look at endogenous LH surges?). It seems that ovulation should be an all-or-none phenomenon in that if the LH surge is sufficient to induce ovulation, then all available follicles would be ovulated. If it is not, then no follicles will be ovulated. Why fewer follicles are ovulated in the gene-targeted animals seems more likely to be due to impaired follicular development rather than a subthreshold LH surge. So, this again points back to the ovary. Or perhaps we need a more thorough assessment of the pattern of LH pulses throughout the cycles in these animals.

      An LH surge induction protocol allows us to submit all female mice to the same conditions and expect a similar response, which is then optimal to compare with animals with an expected ovulation deficit, as it eliminates   external factors. We disagree in that ovulation is an all-or-none phenomenon because in mice numerous follicles mature at the same time and thus a decrease in the number of ovulated oocytes may be significant between groups even if the animals are not completely infertile.

      Collectively, my assessment of these data is that there are effects on reproduction, but they are actually relatively subtle. There were abnormal cycles and impaired LH surge in response to exogenous estrogen. But the animals are not actually infertile, so can ovulate and express normal reproductive behavior. So while there is a role for MC4R signalling in Kiss1 neurons, it may be a contributing modulatory role rather than a major regulatory mechanism. I think the tone of the descriptions should reflect this. I like the way it is framed in some parts of the discussion ("reproductive impairments...mediated by MC4R in Kiss1 neurons and not by their obese phenotype"), but the overall significance of this is overstated in some places, such as the abstract and in other parts of the discussion ("this population is tightly controlled by melanocortins").

      As mentioned in previous responses, ovulation in mice is not all-or nothing, so while the mice can reproduce, the disruption in the central mechanisms that control ovulation and irregular estrous cycles are a significant advancement in the field with strong translational potential to species where only one oocyte is usually ovulated, like in humans, where reproductive disorders in MC4R patients had been attributed to the obesity phenotype rather than to a central action of MC4R (as the reviewer captured in their comment). This is one of the main findings of this study.

      The overstatement has been now addressed throughout the text.

      For in vitro studies, all mice were ovariectomized and given estradiol "replacement." What was the rationale for this? Wouldn't this suppress the basal activity of these neurons? Then it appears that some of the animals were studied as ovariectomised (for an unspecified time but apparently ">7 days", without hormone replacement. The basal activity of these cells would be dramatically different. I think these artificial manipulations make these data quite difficult to interpret. How does this reflect the situation in a normal (or abnormal) estrous cycle? My understanding is that the brain slice approach already compromises the ability of this population of cells to function as a coordinated network (i.e., coordinated episodes of activity that are seen in vivo have not been observed in vitro in brain slices). Ovariectomizing and providing exogenous hormones also removes the additional regulatory elements of the cyclical changes in hormone inputs, so the cells may or may not behave like they would in vivo. Perhaps the authors could justify their choice of experimental model.

      We have clarified that the mice were ovariectomized for 7-10 days. A group of 3 mice are OVXed at once and then used on subsequent days a week later. This delay is both for the recovery of the animal and to allow for “washout” of endogenous ovarian hormones. For optogenetic studies, we were not measuring basal activity. Rather, we prioritized the ability to detect a postsynaptic response. While E2 decreases the networked activity of Kiss1- ARH neurons, the Hcn channels, calcium channels, and Vglut2 expression are all increased. This leads to increased excitability and more glutamate release. Mice lack true follicular and luteal phases and therefore it is impossible to separate estrogen-mediated changes from progesterone-mediated changes (e.g., in a proestrous female). Therefore, we use an ovariectomized female model in which we can generate a LH surge with an E2-replacement regimen (Bosch et al., J Mol Cell Endocrinology 2013). This model enables us to focus on estrogen effects, exclude progesterone effects, and minimize variability. Finally, we have documented that Kiss1<sup>ARH</sup> neurons retain the synchronization of their neuronal firing in the hypothalamic slice preparation (Qiu et al., eLife 2016).

      Figure 4E shows neurons' staining after expressing a Cre-dependent channel rhodopsin vector into POMC-Cre mice. The number of labelled cells looks markedly larger than expected for adult POMC neurons. Was the specificity of this approach to neurons expressing POMC checked? I understand that the POMC-Cre mice have been criticised for ectopic expression of Cre during development in other populations of neurons in the arcuate nucleus that does not express POMC, such as the AgRP neurons (e.g., PMID: 22166984). Is it possible that this is not a problem in adult animals? Has that been validated in these animals? The description of the method suggests that it is acknowledged that some of the expression driven in these animals might be in AgRP neurons. Still, optogenetic activation of these cells will include all cells expressing Cre at the time of AAV administration.

      POMC is transiently expressed during embryonic development in a portion of cells fated to be Kiss1 or NPY/AgRP neurons. Therefore, this is a valid concern when crossing with a floxed mouse. However, use of AAVs in adult animals avoids this issue and leads to specific expression in POMC neurons. This POMC-Cre mouse has been used extensively with AAVs to drive specific expression in POMC neurons by other laboratories (Padilla et al., Nat Med 2010; Lam et al., Mol Metab 2017; Stincic et al., eNeuro 2018 eNeuro; Fenselau et al., Nat Neuro 2017). We have previously shown that AAV-driven mCherry expression is limited to cells labeled with a beta-endorphin antibody (Stincic et al., 2018 eNeuro). Therefore, we are confident that our optogenetic studies have narrowly targeted POMC inputs.

      Some additional explanation of the electrophysiology result may be required. For example, on Line 292, I'm confused by Fig 4M. Why is the response to 20Hz stimulation different in this cell (compared to the one in 4L) before administering naloxone? What proportion of cells showed this opposite response? On line 307: Is 5 cells sufficient for testing the POMC inputs onto AVPV and PeN Kiss1 neurons? How many slices/animals are included in collecting these 5 cells? The rapid action of STX illustrates the ability to modulate the response to MTII, but I am struggling to understand the implications of this in a physiological context. Suppose this response is desensitized by longer-term treatment with E2 (as indicated in the manuscript). Is it relevant to normal regulation during the cycle (particularly in the AVPV, where the key regulatory step seems to be the prolonged exposure to high estradiol as part of the preovulatory signals leading up to the LH surge)?

      As stated in the text, E2 has been shown to increase POMC expression and beta-Endorphin immunostaining. We do not know the effects of E2 on aMSH expression and release. E2 also tends to attenuate the coupling between inhibitory postsynaptic metabotropic (Gi,o-coupled) receptors and signaling cascades. So, there is likely a combination of pre- and post-synaptic mechanisms contributing to these responses. However, the focus of the current studies was on the predominant melanocortin signaling and, as such, we chose to eliminate the influence of opioid signaling. We have added two more cells to this group, both of which were successfully rescued for a total of 5 of 6 cells (6 slices, 5 animals). Between the labeling of b-endorphin fibers and high rate of rescue, we do believe that this is sufficient evidence to support a direct POMC input to Kiss1<sup>AVP/PeN</sup> neurons.

      Line 52: "Here, we show that Mc4r expressed in Kiss1 neurons is required for fertility in females." The knockout animals remain fertile, so this conclusion needs to be re-worded.

      Thank you for this comment. This has now been changed (L52).

      Line 80: "The melanocortin 4 receptor (MC4R) binds α-melanocyte stimulating hormone (αMSH), an agonist product of the pro-opiomelanocortin (Pomc) gene, and the inverse agonist of the agouti-related peptide (AgRP) to regulate food intake and energy expenditure" Is this the correct wording? I think it should be stated that AgRP is an inverse agonist at the MC4R, not that αMSH is the inverse agonist of AgRP. Re-work this sentence.

      Thank you for this comment. This has now been changed (L79-80).

      Line 88: "... however, conflicting reports exist". Describe what these conflicting reports show. Many MC4 variants ("mutations") are expressed in humans, but few will fully inactivate signalling like the mouse knockout.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. By conflicting data, we refer to the studies that report no reproductive impairments in women with MC4R mutations. Either because the metabolic impairments (obesity, hyperphagia, hyperinsulinemia, hyperleptinemia, etc) are so strong that the focus is skewed to these issues, without a full reproductive assessment in these women, or simply because the reviewer mentioned, not all MC4R mutations fully inactivate its signaling in humans - as opposed to mouse models where reproductive disruption has been described previously in full body MC4RKOs.

      Line 91: "...that largely affects females". Is this a genuine sex difference, or are reproductive deficits simply more overt in female rodents? I think the Coss paper (reference 19 in the manuscript) showed a greater effect of diet-induced obesity in males than in females.

      We believe that sex differences exist with regards to the role of MC4R in the regulation of fertility, as we show that most of this effect is mediated by MC4R signaling in Kiss1 AVPV neurons, a neuronal population that is specific to the female brain.

      As far as we can tell, the Coss paper (Villa et al., 2024) has only tested males but not females. Moreover, they investigated the effect of diet induced obesity in mice on their fertility (specifically LH secretion), while in this study we are specifically looking at the deletion of MC4R from Kiss1 neurons, and these mice were not obese (Figure 2A). While both these conditions induce impaired fertility, the mechanisms and signaling pathways are different (our mice lack MC4R signaling while the obese mice have a decrease in MC4R expression but the signaling is still functional).

      Line 392: also Hessler et al. PMID: 32337804.

      This reference is now added to the text (Line 393).

      Line 433. The discussion of how advanced puberty onset (seen in the Kiss1-specific KO animals) might be caused by MC4R signalling in AVPV Kiss1 neurons, which are sexually dimorphic, which might explain sex differences in puberty timing in mammals seems extremely speculative and based on limited data. More targeted experiments would be needed to address this, and I think this speculation should be removed here.

      This speculation has now been removed from the text.

      Line 438: "Furthermore, our findings suggest that metabolic cues, through the regulation of the melanocortin output onto Kiss1AVPV/PeN neurons, are essential for the timing and magnitude of the GnRH/LH surge." Again, I think this is overstating the present data, which has only looked at an artificial hormone administration regime. The animals are fertile and, thus, must be able to mount a sufficient LH surge. The major effect, in fact, seems to be on their cycle, perhaps leading to impaired follicular development. Please acknowledge that this will be one of the multiple pathways by which metabolic information is fed into the HPG axis.

      In addition to the effect on their cycles as mentioned by the reviewer, the Kiss1MC4RKO females also display impaired fertility (Figure 2, S-T) and fewer corpora lutea which is in line with the impaired mounting of LH surge (Figure 2, M). Even if the LH surge is induced by the hormone administration protocol, it only reflects the natural ability of the HPG axis to mount the surge, as this regimen is only there to mimic the endogenous hormonal changes leading to LH surge and therefore ovulation, in a controlled manner. Nonetheless, we agree with this reviewer that this is not the sole mechanism by which metabolism regulates reproductive function and this has been emphasized in the paper. (line 443)

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The decreased melanocortin tone drives puberty onset (Figure 1D), and this is correlative. The transgenic animals' hypothalamic expression of Agrp, Pomc, Mc4r, and Mc3r can be measured to strengthen the claim. Hprt expression should be demonstrated, as this housekeeping gene was used as a common denominator.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. While we think that indeed, measuring Agrp, Pomc, Mc4r, and Mc3r gene expressions in the transgenic mice will strengthen our claim and give more insights into the melanocortins tone during pubertal maturation, this is unfortunately not feasible as it will involve generating a lot of mice (at least n=40 pups for an n=5/group, KO and control littermates, females only -which will require setting up lots of breeding pairs-) during different ages throughout puberty.

      As for the gene expression of Hprt, because we have 6 mice per age, 4 ages total, every gene (Agrp, Pomc, Mc4r, Mc3r) was run in a separate plate with Hprt as its own housekeeping gene. Samples were run in duplicates for each Hprt and melanocortin genes in a 96 well = 48 wells for Hprt and 48 wells for each of the melanocortin genes. Therefore, it won’t be possible to represent one Hprt expression for all the four genes, however every gene was normalized to the Hprt gene expression that was ran in the same plate).

      In Figures 4 and 5, dot plots can be used (as opposed to the bar graphs) to better reflect the individual data points.

      Figures 4 and 5 have been revised to include individual data points.

      The electrophysiology experiment requires more details in the method section. In addition to the publication cited, a brief recap of the methodology used in this paper, such as the focal application of MTII (Figure 4B), is also needed.

      We have added more details to the Methods.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In the manuscript the authors describe a new pipeline to measure changes in vasculature diameter upon optogenetic stimulation of neurons. The work is useful to better understand the hemodynamic response on a network /graph level.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript provides a pipeline that allows to detect changes in the vessel diameter as well as simultaneously allows to locate the neurons driven by stimulation.

      The resulting data could provide interesting insights into the graph level mechanisms of regulating activity dependent blood flow.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The manuscript contains (new) wrong statements and (still) wrong mathematical formulas.

      The symbols in these formulas have been updated to disambiguate them, and the accompanying statements have been adjusted for clarity.

      (2) The manuscript does not compare results to existing pipelines for vasculature segmentation (opensource or commercial). Comparing performance of the pipeline to a random forest classifier (illastik) on images that are not preprocessed (i.e. corrected for background etc.) seems not a particularly useful comparison.

      We’ve now included comparisons to Imaris (a commercial) for segmentation and VesselVio (open-source) for graph extraction software.

      For the ilastik comparison, the images were preprocessed prior to ilastik segmentation, specifically by doing intensity normalization.

      Example segmentations utilizing Imaris have now been included. Imaris leaves gaps and discontinuities in the segmentation masks, as shown in Supplementary Figure 10. The Imaris segmentation masks also tend to be more circular in cross-section despite irregularities on the surface of the vessels observable in the raw data and identified in manual segmentation. This approach also requires days to months to generate per image stack.

      “Comparison with commercial and open-source vascular analysis pipelines

      To compare our results with those achievable on these data with other pipelines for segmentation and graph network extraction, we compared segmentation results qualitatively with Imaris version 9.2.1 (Bitplane) and vascular graph extraction with VesselVio [1]. For the Imaris comparison, three small volumes were annotated by hand to label vessels. Example slices of the segmentation results are shown in Supplementary Figure 10. Imaris tended to either over- or under-segment vessels, disregard fine details of the vascular boundaries, and produce jagged edges in the vascular segmentation masks. In addition to these issues with segmentation mask quality, manual segmentation of a single volume took days for a rater to annotate. To compare to VesselVio, binary segmentation masks (one before and one after photostimulation) generated with our deep learning models were loaded into VesselVio for graph extraction, as VesselVio does not have its own method for generating segmentation masks. This also facilitates a direct comparison of the benefits of our graph extraction pipeline to VesselVio. Visualizations of the two graphs are shown in Supplementary Figure 11. Vesselvio produced many hairs at both time points, and the total number of segments varied considerably between the two sequential stacks: while the baseline scan resulted in 546 vessel segments, the second scan had 642 vessel segments. These discrepancies are difficult to resolve in post-processing and preclude a direct comparison of individual vessel segments across time. As the segmentation masks we used in graph extraction derive from the union of multiple time points, we could better trace the vasculature and identify more connections in our extracted graph. Furthermore, VesselVio relies on the distance transform of the user supplied segmentation mask to estimate vascular radii; consequently, these estimates are highly susceptible to variations in the input segmentation masks.We repeatedly saw slight variations between boundary placements of all of the models we utilized (ilastik, UNet, and UNETR) and those produced by raters. Our pipeline mitigates this segmentation method bias by using intensity gradient-based boundary detection from centerlines in the image (as opposed to using the distance transform of the segmentation mask, as in VesselVio).”

      (3) The manuscript does not clearly visualize performance of the segmentation pipeline (e.g. via 2d sections, highlighting also errors etc.). Thus, it is unclear how good the pipeline is, under what conditions it fails or what kind of errors to expect.

      On reviewer’s comment, 2D slices have been added in the Supplementary Figure 4.

      (4) The pipeline is not fully open-source due to use of matlab. Also, the pipeline code was not made available during review contrary to the authors claims (the provided link did not lead to a repository). Thus, the utility of the pipeline was difficult to judge.

      All code has been uploaded to Github and is available at the following location: https://github.com/AICONSlab/novas3d

      The Matlab code for skeletonization is better at preserving centerline integrity during the pruning of hairs from centerlines than the currently available open-source methods.

      - Generalizability: The authors addressed the point of generalizability by applying the pipeline to other data sets. This demonstrates that their pipeline can be applied to other data sets and makes it more useful.  However, from the visualizations it's unclear to see the performance of the pipeline, where the pipelines fails etc. The 3d visualizations are not particularly helpful in this respect . In addition, the dice measure seems quite low, indicating roughly 20-40% of voxels do not overlap between inferred and ground truth. I did not notice this high discrepancy earlier. A thorough discussion of the errors appearing in the segmentation pipeline would be necessary in my view to better assess the quality of the pipeline.

      2D slices from the additional datasets have been added in the Supplementary Figure 13 to aid in visualizing the models’ ability to generalize to other datasets.

      The dice range we report on (0.7-0.8) is good when compared to those (0.56-86) of 3D segmentations of large datasets in microscopy [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]. Furthermore, we had two additional raters segment three images from the original training set. We found that the raters had a mean inter class correlation  of 0.73 [7]. Our model outperformed this Dice score on unseen data: Dice scores from our generalizability tests on C57 mice and Fischer rats on par or higher than this baseline.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):<br /> The authors have addressed most of my concerns sufficiently. There are still a few serious concerns I have. Primarily, the temporal resolution of the technique still makes me dubious about nearly all of the biological results. It is good that the authors have added some vessel diameter time courses generated by their model. But I still maintain that data sampling every 42 seconds - or even 21 seconds - is problematic. First, the evidence for long vascular responses is lacking. The authors cite several papers:

      Alarcon-Martinez et al. 2020 show and explicitly state that their responses (stimulus-evoked) returned to baseline within 30 seconds. The responses to ischemia are long lasting but this is irrelevant to the current study using activated local neurons to drive vessel signals.

      Mester et al. 2019 show responses that all seem to return to baseline by around 50 seconds post-stimulus.

      In Mester et al. 2019, diffuse stimulations with blue light showed a return to baseline around 50 seconds post-stimulus (cf. Figure 1E,2C,2D). However, focal stimulations where the stimulation light is raster scanned over a small region focused in the field of view show longer-lasting responses (cf. Figure 4) that have not returned to baseline by 70 seconds post-stimulus [8]. Alarcon-Martinez et al. do report that their responses return baseline within 30 seconds; however, their physiological stimulation may lead to different neuronal and vessel response kinetics than those elicited by the optogenetic stimulations as in current work.

      O'Herron et al. 2022 and Hartmann et al. 2021 use opsins expressed in vessel walls (not neurons as in the current study) and directly constrict vessels with light. So this is unrelated to neuronal activity-induced vascular signals in the current study.

      We agree that optogenetic activation of vessel-associated cells is distinct from optogenetic activation of neurons, but we do expect the effects of such perturbations on the vasculature to have some commonalities.

      There are other papers including Vazquez et al 2014 (PMID: 23761666) and Uhlirova et al 2016 (PMID: 27244241) and many others showing optogenetically-evoked neural activity drives vascular responses that return back to baseline within 30 seconds. The stimulation time and the cell types labeled may be different across these studies which can make a difference. But vascular responses lasting 300 seconds or more after a stimulus of a few seconds are just not common in the literature and so are very suspect - likely at least in part due to the limitations of the algorithm.

      The photostimulation in Vazquez et al. 2014 used diffuse photostimulation with a fiberoptic probe similar to Mester et al. 2019 as opposed to raster scanning focal stimulation we used in this study and in the study by Mester et al. 2019  where we observed the focal photostimulation to elicited longer than a minute vascular responses. Uhlirova et al. 2016 used photostimulation powers between 0.7 and 2.8 mW, likely lower than our 4.3 mW/mm2 photostimulation. Further, even with focal photostimulation, we do see light intensity dependence of the duration of the vascular responses. Indeed, in Supplementary Figure 2, 1.1 mW/mm2 photostimulation leads to briefer dilations/constrictions than does 4.3 mW/mm2; the 1.1 mW/mm2 responses are in line, duration wise, with those in Uhlirova et al. 2016.

      Critically, as per Supplementary Figure 2, the analysis of the experimental recordings acquired at 3-second temporal resolution did likewise show responses in many vessels lasting for tens of seconds and even hundreds of seconds in some vessels.

      Another major issue is that the time courses provided show that the same vessel constricts at certain points and dilates later. So where in the time course the data is sampled will have a major effect on the direction and amplitude of the vascular response. In fact, I could not find how the "response" window is calculated. Is it from the first volume collected after the stimulation - or an average of some number of volumes? But clearly down-sampling the provided data to 42 or even 21 second sampling will lead to problems. If the major benefit to the field is the full volume over large regions that the model can capture and describe, there needs to be a better way to capture the vessel diameter in a meaningful way.

      In the main experiment (i.e. excluding the additional experiments presented in the Supplementary Figure 2 that were collected over a limited FOV at 3s per stack), we have collected one stack every 42 seconds. The first slice of the volume starts following the photostimulation, and the last slice finishes at 42 seconds. Each slice takes ~0.44 seconds to acquire. The data analysis pipeline (as demonstrated by the Supplementary Figure 2) is not in any way limited to data acquired at this temporal resolution and - provided reasonable signal-to-noise ratio (cf. Figure 5) - is applicable, as is, to data acquired at much higher sampling rates.

      It still seems possible that if responses are bi-phasic, then depth dependencies of constrictors vs dilators may just be due to where in the response the data are being captured - maybe the constriction phase is captured in deeper planes of the volume and the dilation phase more superficially. This may also explain why nearly a third of vessels are not consistent across trials - if the direction the volume was acquired is different across trials, different phases of the response might be captured.

      Alternatively, like neuronal responses to physiological stimuli, the vascular responses elicited by increases in neuronal activity may themselves be variable in both space and time.

      I still have concerns about other aspects of the responses but these are less strong. Particularly, these bi-phasic responses are not something typically seen and I still maintain that constrictions are not common. The authors are right that some papers do show constriction. Leaving out the direct optogenetic constriction of vessels (O'Herron 2022 & Hartmann 2021), the Alarcon-Martinez et al. 2020 paper and others such as Gonzales et al 2020 (PMID: 33051294) show different capillary branches dilating and constricting. However, these are typically found either with spontaneous fluctuations or due to highly localized application of vasoactive compounds. I am not familiar with data showing activation of a large region of tissue - as in the current study - coupled with vessel constrictions in the same region. But as the authors point out, typically only a few vessels at a time are monitored so it is possible - even if this reviewer thinks it unlikely - that this effect is real and just hasn't been seen.

      Uhlirova et al. 2016 (PMID: 27244241) observed biphasic responses in the same vessel with optogenetic stimulation in anesthetized and unanesthetized animals (cf Fig 1b and Fig 2, and section “OG stimulation of INs reproduces the biphasic arteriolar response”). Devor et al. (2007) and Lindvere et al. (2013) also reported on constrictions and dilations being elicited by sensory stimuli.

      I also have concerns about the spatial resolution of the data. It looks like the data in Figure 7 and Supplementary Figure 7 have a resolution of about 1 micron/pixel. It isn't stated so I may be wrong. But detecting changes of less than 1 micron, especially given the noise of an in vivo prep (brain movement and so on), might just be noise in the model. This could also explain constrictions as just spurious outputs in the model's diameter estimation. The high variability in adjacent vessel segments seen in Figure 6C could also be explained the same way, since these also seem biologically and even physically unlikely.

      Thank you for your comment. To address this important issue, we performed an additional validation experiment where we placed a special order of fluorescent beads with a known diameter of 7.32 ± 0.27um, imaged them following our imaging protocol, and subsequently used our pipeline to estimate their diameter. Our analysis converged on the manufacturer-specified diameters, estimating the diameter to be 7.34 ± 0.32. The manuscript has been updated to detail this experiment, as below:

      Methods section insert

      “Second, our boundary detection algorithm was used to estimate the diameters of fluorescent beads of a known radius imaged under similar acquisition parameters. Polystyrene microspheres labelled with Flash Red (Bangs Laboratories, inc, CAT# FSFR007) with a nominal diameter of 7.32um and a specified range of 7.32 ± 0.27um as determined by the manufacturer using a Coulter counter were imaged on the same multiphoton fluorescence microscope set-up used in the experiment (identical light path, resonant scanner, objective, detector, excitation wavelength and nominal lateral and axial resolutions, with 5x averaging). The images of the beads had a higher SNR than our images of the vasculature, so Gaussian noise was added to the images to degrade the SNR to the same level of that of the blood vessels. The images of the beads were segmented with a threshold, centroids calculated for individual spheres, and planes with a random normal vector extracted from each bead and used to estimate the diameter of the beads. The same smoothing and PSF deconvolution steps were applied in this task. We then reported the mean and standard deviation of the distribution of the diameter estimates. A variety of planes were used to estimate the diameters.”

      Results Section Insert

      “Our boundary detection algorithm successfully estimated the radius of precisely specified fluorescent beads. The bead images had a signal-to-noise ratio of 6.79 ± 0.16 (about 35% higher than our in vivo images): to match their SNR to that of in vivo vessel data, following deconvolution, we added Gaussian noise with a standard deviation of 85 SU to the images, bringing the SNR down to 5.05 ± 0.15. The data processing pipeline was kept unaltered except for the bead segmentation, performed via image thresholding instead of our deep learning model (trained on vessel data). The bead boundary was computed following the same algorithm used on vessel data: i.e., by the average of the minimum intensity gradients computed along 36 radial spokes emanating from the centreline vertex in the orthogonal plane. To demonstrate an averaging-induced decrease in the uncertainty of the bead radius estimates on a scale that is finer than the nominal resolution of the imaging configuration, we tested four averaging levels in 289 beads. Three of these averaging levels were lower than that used on the vessels, and one matched that used on the vessels (36 spokes per orthogonal plane and a minimum of 10 orthogonal planes per vessel). As the amount of averaging increased, the uncertainty on the diameter of the beads decreased, and our estimate of the bead's diameter converged upon the manufacturer's Coulter counter-based specifications (7.32 ± 0.27um), as tabulated in Table 1.”

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Comments to the authors replies to the reviews:

      - Supplementary Figure 13:

      As indicated before the 3d images + scale makes it impossible to judge the quality of the outputs.

      As aforementioned, 2D slices have been added to the Supplementary Figure 13.

      - Supplementary Table 3:

      There is a significant increase in the Hausdorrf and Mean Surface Distance measures for the new data, why ?

      A single vessel being missed by either the rater or the model would significantly affect the Hausdorff distance (HD) and by extension Mean Surface Distance: this is particularly pertinent in the LSFM image with its much larger FOV and thus a potential for much larger max distances to result from missed vessels in the prediction or ground truth data. Large Hausdorff distances may indicate a vessel was missed in either the ground truth or the segmentation mask.

      Of note, a different rater annotated these additional datasets from the raters labeling the ground truth data. There is a high variability in boundary placements between raters. On a test where three raters segmented the same three images from the original dataset, we computed a ICC of 0.73 across their segmentations. Our model Dice scores on predictions in out-of-distribution data sets were on par with the inter-rater ICC on the Thy1ChR2 2PFM data.

      - Supplementary Figure 2: The authors provide useful data on the time responses. However, looking at those figures, it is puzzling why certain vessels were selected as responding as there seems almost no change after stimulation. In addition, some of the responses seem to actually start several tens of seconds before the actual stimulus (particularly in A).

      Only some traces in C and D (dark blue) seem to be actually responding vessels.

      This is not discussed and unclear.

      Supplementary Figure 2 displays the time courses of vessel calibre for all vessels in the FOV, not just those deemed responders.

      The aforementioned effects are due to the loess smoothing filter having been applied to the time courses for the preliminary response, which has been rectified in the updated figures. In particular, Supplementary Figure 2 has been updated with separate loess smoothing before and after photostimulation. The (pre-stimulation) effect is gone once the loess smoothing has been separated.

      - R Point 7: As indicated before and in agreement with the alternative reviewer, the quality of the results in 3d is difficult to judge. No 2d sections that compare 'ground truth' with inferred results are shown in the current manuscript which would enable a much better judgment. The provided video is still 3d and not a video going through 2d slices. Also, in the video the overlap of vasculature and raw data seems to be very good and near 100%, why is the dice measure reported earlier so low ? Is this a particularly good example ?

      Some examples, indicating where the pipeline fails (and why) would be helpful to see, to judge its performance better (ideally in 2d slices).

      As discussed in the public comments, the 2D slices are now included in Suppl. Fig. 4 and suppl. Fig 13 to facilitate visual assessment. The vessels are long and thin so that slight dilations or constrictions impact the Dice scores without being easily visualizable.

      - Author response images 6 and 7. From the presented data the constrictions measured in the smaller vessels may be a result (at least partly) of noise. This seems to be particularly the case in Author response image 7 left top and bottom for example. It would be helpful to show the actual estimates of the vessels radii overlaid in the (raw) images. In some of the pictures the noise level seems to reach higher values than the 10-20% of noise used in the tests by the authors in the revision.

      The vessel radii are estimated as averages across all vertices of the individual vessels: it is thus not possible to overlay them meaningfully in 2D slices: in Figure 2B, we do show a rendering of sample vessel-wise radii estimates.

      - "We tested the centerline detection in Python, scipy (1.9.3) and Matlab. We found that the Matlab implementation performed better due to its inclusion of a branch length parameter for the identification of terminal branches, which greatly reduced the number of false branches; the Python implementation does not include this feature (in any version) and its output had many more such "hair" artifacts. Clearmap skeletonization uses an algorithm by Palagyi & Kuba(1999) to thin segmentation masks, which does not include hair removal. Vesselvio uses a parallelized version of the scipy implementation of Lee et al. (1994) algorithm which does not do hair removal based on a terminal branch length filter; instead, Vesselvio performs a threshold-based hair removal that is frequently overly aggressive (it removes true positive vessel branches), as highlighted by the authors."

      This statement is wrong. The removal of small branches in skeletons is algorithmically independent of the skeletonization algorithm itself. The authors cite a reference concerned with the algorithm they are currently employing for the skeletonization. Careful assessment of that reference shows that this algorithm removes small length branches after skeletonization is performed. This feature is available in open-source packages as well, or could be easily implemented.

      We appreciate that skeletonization is distinct from hair removal and have reworded this paragraph for clarity. We are currently working with SciPy developers to implement hair removal in their image processing pipeline so as to render our pipeline fully open-source.

      The removal of hairs after skeletonization with length based thresholding leads to the possibility of removing parts of centerlines in the main part of vessels after branch points with hairs. The Matlab implementation does not do this and leaves the main branches intact.

      This text has been updated to:

      “Hair” segments shorter than 20 μm and terminal on one end were iteratively removed, starting with the shortest hairs and merging the longest hairs at junctions with 2 terminal branches with the main vessel branch to reduce false positive vascular branches and minimize the amount of centerlines removed. This iterative hair removal functionality of the skeletonization algorithm is currently unavailable in python, but is available in Matlab [9].

      - "On the reviewer's comment, we did try inputting normalized images into Ilastik, but this did not improve its results." This is surprising. Reasonable standard preprocessing (e.g. background removal, equalization, and vessel enhancement) would probably restore most of illastik's performance in the indicated panel.

      While the improvement may be present in a particular set of images, the generalizability of such improvement to other patches is often poor in our experience, as reflected by aforementioned results and the widespread uptake of DL approaches to image segmentation. The in vivo datasets also contain artifacts arising from eg. bleeding into the FOV that ilastik is highly sensitive to. This is an example of noise that is not easily removed by standard preprocessing.

      - "Typical pre-processing/standard computer vision techniques with parameter tuning do not generalize on out-of-distribution data with different image characteristics, motivating the shift to DL-based approaches."

      I disagree with this statement. DL approaches can generalize typically when trained with sufficient amount of diverse data. However, DL approaches can also fail with new out of distribution data. In that situation they only be 'rescued' via new time intensive data generation and retraining. Simple standard image pre-processing steps (e.g. to remove background or boost vessel structures) have well defined parameter that can be easily adapted to new out of distribution data as clear interpretations are available. The time to adapt those parameters is typically much smaller than retraining of DL frameworks.

      We find that the standard image processing approaches with parameter tuning work robustly only if fine-tuned on individual images; i.e., the fine-tuning does not generalize across datasets. This approach thus does not scale to experiments yielding large image sizes/having high throughput experiments. While DL models may not generalize to out-of-distribution data, fine-tuning DL models with a small subset of labels generally produce superior models to parameter tuning that can be applied to entire studies. Moreover, DL fine-tuning is typically an efficient process due to very limited labelling and training time required.

      - It is still unclear how the authors pipeline performs compared with other (open source or commercially) available pipelines. As indicated before, comparing to illastik, particularly when feeding non preprocessed data, does not seem to be a particularly high bar.

      This question has also been raised by the other reviewer who asked to compare to commercially available pipelines.

      This question was not answered by the authors, and instead the authors reply by claiming to provide an open source pipeline. In fact, the use of matlab in their pipeline does not make it fully open-source either. Moreover, as mentioned before, open-source pipelines for comparisons do exists.

      As discussed above, the manuscript now includes comparisons to Imaris for segmentation and Vesselvio for graph extraction. The pipeline is on github.

      -"We agree with the review that this question is interesting; however, it is not addressable using present data: activated neuronal firing will have effects on their postsynaptic neighbors, yet we have no means of measuring the spread of activation using the current experimental model."

      Distances to the closest neuron in the manuscript are measured without checking if it's active. Thus, distances to the first set of n neurons could be measured in the same way, ignoring activation effects.

      Shorter distances to an entire ensemble of neurons would still be (more) informative of metabolic demands.

      This could indeed be done within the existing framework. The connected-components-3d can be used to extract individual occurrences of neurons in the FOV from the neuron segmentation mask. Each neuron could then have its distance calculated to each point on the vessel centerlines.

      - model architecture:

      It is unclear from the description if any positional encoding was used for the image patches.

      It is unclear if the architecture / pipeline can handle any volume sizes or is trained on a fixed volume shapes? In the latter case how is the pipeline applied?

      The model includes positional encoding, as described in Hatamizadeh et al. 2021.

      The model can be applied to images of any size, as demonstrated on larger images in Supplementary Figure 9 and on smaller images in Supplementary Figure 2. The pipeline is applied in the same way. It will read in the size of an input image and output an image of the same size.

      - transformer models often show better results when using a learning rate scheduler that adjust the learning rate (up and down ramps typically). Did the authors test such approaches?

      We did not use a learning rate scheduler, as we found we were getting good results without using one.

      - formula (4): The 95% percentile of two numbers is the max, and thus (5) is certainly not what the HD95 metric is. The formula is simply wrong as displayed.

      Thank you. The formula has been updated.

      - formula (5): formula 5 is certainly wrong: n_X, n_y are either integer numbers as indicated by the sum indices or sets when used in the distances, but can't be both at the same time.

      Thank you for your comment. The Formula has been updated.

      - The statement:

      "this functionality of the skeletonization algorithm is currently unavailable in any python implementation, but is available in Matlab [56]."

      is not correct (see reply above)

      Please see the response above. This text has been updated to:

      “Hair” segments shorter than 20 μm and terminal on one end were iteratively removed, starting with the shortest hairs and merging the longest hairs at junctions with 2 terminal branches with the main vessel branch to reduce false positive vascular branches and minimize the amount of centerlines removed. This iterative hair removal functionality of the skeletonization algorithm is currently unavailable in Python, but is available in Matlab [9].

      - the centerline extraction is performed after taking the union of smoothed masks. The union operation can induce novel 'irregular' boundaries that degrade skeletonization performance. I would expect to apply smoothing after the union?

      Indeed the images were smoothed via dilation after taking the union, as described in the previous set of responses to private comments.

      - "The radius estimate defined the size of the Gaussian kernel that was convolved with the image to smooth the vessel: smaller vessels were thus convolved with narrower kernels."

      It's unclear what image were filtered ?

      We have updated this text for clarity:

      The radius estimate defined the size of the Gaussian kernel that was convolved with the 2D image slice to smooth the vessel: smaller vessels were thus convolved with narrower kernels.

      - Was deconvolution on the raw images applied or after Gaussian filtering ?

      The deconvolution was applied before Gaussian filtering.

      - ",we extracted image intensities in the orthogonal plane from the deconvolved raw registered image. A 2D Gaussian kernel with sigma equal to 80% of the estimated vessel-wise radius was used to low-pass filter the extracted orthogonal plane image and find the local signal intensity maximum searching, in 2D, from the center of the image to the radius of 10 pixels from the center."

      Would it not be better to filter the 3d image before extracting a 2d plane and filter then ?

      That could be done, but would incur a significant computational speed penalty. 2D convolutions are faster, and produced excellent accuracy when estimating radii in our bead experiment.

      What algorithm was used to obtain the 2d images.

      The 2d images were obtained using scipy.ndimage.map_coordinates.

      - Figure 2: H is this the filtered image or the raw data ?

      Panel H is raw data.

      - It would be good to see a few examples of the raw data overlaid with the radial estimates to evaluate the approach (beyond the example in K).

      Additional examples are shown in Figure 5.

      - Figure 2 K: Why are boundary points greater than 2 standard deviations away from the mean excluded ?

      They are excluded to account for irregularities as vessels approach junctions [10], [11] REF.

      - Figure 2 L: what exactly is plotted here ? What are vertex wise changes, is that the difference between the minimum and maximum of all the detected radii for a single vertex? Why do some vessels (red) show high values consistently throughout the vessel ?

      Figure 2L displays change in the radius of vertices - in this FOV- following photostimulation in relation to baseline.

      - Assortativity: to calculate the assortativity, are radius changes binned in any form to account for the fact that otherwise, $e_{xy}$ and related measures will be likely be based on single data points?

      Assortativity is not calculated from single data points. It can be calculated by either binning into categories or computing it on scalars i.e. average radius across a vessel segment:

      See here for info on calculating assortativity from binned categories (ie classifying a vessel as a constrictor, dilator or non-responder):

      https://networkx.org/documentation/stable/reference/algorithms/generated/networkx.algorithms.assortativity.attribute_assortativity_coefficient.html#networkx.algorithms.assortativity.attribute_assortativity_coefficient

      And see here for calculating assortativity from scalar values:

      https://networkx.org/documentation/stable/reference/algorithms/generated/networkx.algorithms.assortativity.numeric_assortativity_coefficient.html#networkx.algorithms.assortativity.numeric_assortativity_coefficient

      We calculated the assortativity using scalar values.

      In both cases, one uses all nodes and calculates the correlation between each node and its neighbours with an attribute that can be binned or is a scalar. Binning the value on a given node would not affect the number of nodes in a graph.

      - "Ilastik tended to over-segment vessels, i.e. the model returned numerous false positives, having a high recall (0.89{plus minus}0.19) but low precision (0.37{plus minus}0.33) (Figure 3, Supplementary Table 3)."

      As indicated before, and looking at Figure 4, over segmentation seems due to too high background. A suggested preprocessing step on the raw images to remove background could have avoided this.

      The images were normalized in preprocessing.

      - Figure 4: The 3d panels are not much easier to read in the revised version. As suggested by other reviewers, 2d sections indicating the differences and errors would be much more helpful to judge the pipelines quality more appropriately.

      As discussed above, 2D sections are now available in a supplementary figure.

      - Figure 3: What would be the dice score (and other measures) between two ground truths extracted by two annotations by two humans (assisted e.g. by illastik).

      Two additional human rates annotated images. We observed a ICC of 0.73 across a total of three raters on the three images.

      - Figure 5: The authors only provide the absolute value of SU for the sigma noise levels. This only has some meaning when compared to the mean or median SU of the images. In the text the maximal intensity of 1023 SU is mentioned, but what are those values in images with weaker / smaller vessels (as provided in the constriction examples in the revision)/

      I am unclear why this validation figure should be part of the main manuscript while generalization performance is left out.

      The manuscript has been updated with the mean SNR value of 5.05 ± 0.15 to provide context for the quality of our images.

      Bibliography

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      (2) G. Tetteh et al., “DeepVesselNet: Vessel Segmentation, Centerline Prediction, and Bifurcation Detection in 3-D Angiographic Volumes,” Front. Neurosci., vol. 14, Dec. 2020, doi: 10.3389/fnins.2020.592352.

      (3) N. Holroyd, Z. Li, C. Walsh, E. Brown, R. Shipley, and S. Walker-Samuel, “tUbe net: a generalisable deep learning tool for 3D vessel segmentation,” Jul. 24, 2023, bioRxiv. doi: 10.1101/2023.07.24.550334.

      (4) W. Tahir et al., “Anatomical Modeling of Brain Vasculature in Two-Photon Microscopy by Generalizable Deep Learning,” BME Front., vol. 2020, p. 8620932, Dec. 2020, doi: 10.34133/2020/8620932.

      (5) R. Damseh, P. Delafontaine-Martel, P. Pouliot, F. Cheriet, and F. Lesage, “Laplacian Flow Dynamics on Geometric Graphs for Anatomical Modeling of Cerebrovascular Networks,” ArXiv191210003 Cs Eess Q-Bio, Dec. 2019, Accessed: Dec. 09, 2020. [Online]. Available: http://arxiv.org/abs/1912.10003

      (6) T. Jerman, F. Pernuš, B. Likar, and Ž. Špiclin, “Enhancement of Vascular Structures in 3D and 2D Angiographic Images,” IEEE Trans. Med. Imaging, vol. 35, no. 9, pp. 2107–2118, Sep. 2016, doi: 10.1109/TMI.2016.2550102.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer 1:

      The authors explain that an action potential that reach an axon terminal emits a small electrical field as it "annihilates". This happens even though there is no gap junction, at chemical synapses. The generated electrical field is simulated to show that it can affect a nearby, disconnected target membrane by tens of microvolts for tenths of a microsecond. Longer effects are simulated for target locations a few microns away.

      To simulate action potentials (APs), the paper does not use the standard HodgkinHuxley formalism because it fails to explain AP collision. Instead it uses the Tasaki and Matsumoto (TM) model which is simplified to only models APs with three parameters and as a membrane transition between two states of resting versus excited. The authors expand the strictly binary, discrete TM method to a Relaxing Tasaki Model (RTM) that models the relaxation of the membrane potential after an AP. They find that the membrane leak can be neglected in determining AP propagation and that the capacitive currents dominate the process.

      The strength of the work is that authors identified an important interaction between neurons that is neglected by the standard models. A weakness of the proposed approach is the assumptions that it makes. For instance, the external medium is modeled as a homogeneous conductive medium, which may be further explored to properly account for biological processes. To the authors’ credit, the external medium can be largely varying and could be left out from the general model, only to be modeled specific instances.

      The authors provide convincing evidence by performing experiments to record action potential propagation and collision properties and then developing a theoretical framework to simulate effect of their annihilation on nearby membranes. They provide both experimental evidence and rigorous mathematical and computer simulation findings to support their claims. The work has a potential of explaining significant electrical interaction between nerve centers that are connected via a large number of parallel fibers.

      Comments on revisions:

      The authors responded to all of my previous concerns and significantly improved the manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for his comments and are pleased that we were able to adequately address all of his previous concerns. As a small comment to the remark of the reviewer “potential of explaining ... interaction ... via a large number of parallel fibers” we would like to add: The ephaptic coupling is prominent when APs annihilate at axon terminals, as we illustrate in Figure 4 and 5. Across parallel fibers, the impact of propagating APs is much lower but still may result in synchronization of APs.

      Reviewer 2:

      In this study, the authors measured extracellular electrical features of colliding APs travelling in different directions down an isolated earthworm axon. They then used these features to build a model of the potential ephaptic effects of AP annihilation, i.e. the electrical signals produced by colliding/annihilating APs that may influence neighbouring tissue. The model was then applied to some different hypothetical scenarios involving synaptic connections. In a revised version of the manuscript, it was also applied, with success, to published experimental data on the cerebellar basket cell-to-Purkinje cell pinceau connection. The conclusion is that an annihilating AP at a presynaptic terminal can emphatically influence the voltage of a postsynaptic cell (this is, presumably, the ’electrical coupling between neurons’ of the title), and that the nature of this influence depends on the physical configuration of the synapse.

      As an experimental neuroscientist who has never used computational approaches, I am unable to comment on the rigour of the analytical approaches that form the bulk of this paper. The experimental approaches appear very well carried out, and the data showing equal conduction velocity of anti- and orthodromically propagating APs in every preparation is now convincing.

      The conclusions drawn from the synaptic modelling have been considerably strengthened by the new Figure 5. Here, the authors’ model - including AP annihilation at a synaptic terminal - is used to predict the amplitude and direction of experimentally observed effects at the cerebellar basket cell-to-Purkinje cell synapse (Blot & Barbour 2014). One particular form of the model (RTM with tau=0.5ms and realistic non-excitability of the terminal) matches the experimental data extremely well. This is a much more convincing demonstration that the authors’ model of ephaptic effects can quantitatively explain key features of experimental data pertaining to synaptic function. As such, the implications for the relevance of ephaptic coupling at different synaptic contacts may be widespread and important.

      However, it appears that all of the models in the new Fig5 involve annihilating APs, yet only one fits the data closely. A key question, which should be addressed if at all possible, is what happens to the predictive power of the best-fitting model in Fig5 if the annihilation, and only the annihilation, is removed? In other words, can the authors show that it is specifically the ephaptic effects of AP annihilation, rather than other ephaptic effects of, say AP waveform/amplitude/propagation, that explain the synaptic effects measured in Blot & Barbour (2014)? This would appear to be a necessary demonstration to fully support the claims of the title.

      Reviewer 2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Can you clarify whether all models shown in Fig5 involve an annihilating AP? Is it possible to plot the predicted effects of the most successful model (RTM 0.5ms in B) with *only* the annihilation selectively removed?

      We are grateful for the reviewer’s comments and the specific suggestion for improvement (’...can the authors show that it is specifically the ephaptic effects of AP annihilation, rather than other ephaptic effects...’). For illustrating the importance of annihilation, we added the results of our calculation when no annihilation occurs, i.e. for propagating APs in the source neuron (Figure 5A) and we modified the geometry of the source neuron in Figure 5B such that only the annihilation takes place. Together with the source neuron with similar properties to the Basket cell (Figure 5C), we now show the effect of annihilation and the effect of Basket cell specific geometry and physiology. We added and edited in the main text the following 4 sentences:

      ll 271: In our two models (TM and RTM), the modulation of not terminating but propagating APs along the source axon on the AP rate of the target cell is minute (Figure 5A). Note that this geometry does not correspond to the Purkinje cell-Basket cell connectivity. For annihilating APs at the axon terminal, with excitable segments up to the very end, our models reveal a moderate modulation, and only about half of what was reported for the Purkinje cell by Blot and Barbour (2014). This illustrates the importance of AP annihilation for ephaptic coupling (Figure 5B). We added and edited the figure legend:

      Figure 5. ... (A) excluding the annihilation of an AP at the source neuron, i.e. a propagating AP, cause only minute modulation of the predicted AP rate in the target neuron. Note that this example does not represent the Basket cell terminal with annihilating APs. (B) annihilation of an AP at the terminal of the source neuron, with all segments being excitable in our calculation, cause moderate modulation. (C) source neuron with similar properties to the Basket cell, i.e. a bouton and last segments non-excitable (corresponding to 15 µm with no switch from resting state to excited state), cause inhibition and rebound that is very similar as described by Blot and Barbour (2014).

      In the discussion, we extended one sentence to refer to Figure 5:

      ll 346: This may cause synchronization of APs and our proposed model also can be used to study the observed phenomena of synchronization due to ephaptic coupling, even in the case of zero discharge (see Figure 4A, and local impact on the target, integrated on timescales >1 ms in Figure 5).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      We sincerely appreciate the time and effort you and the reviewers have invested in evaluating our work.

      We are grateful for the constructive criticism of the reviewers. Building up on their feedback we have made additions to the reviewed preprint. Specifically, we have added information to the supplementary materials to give additional context on the impact of the fixed experimental design on infants’ looking behavior. Further, we have adapted the text throughout the manuscript to incorporate a thorough discussion of the impact of the experimental design.

      We believe that these revisions and the inclusion of supplementary analyses provide a clearer understanding of our findings.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The authors observed a decline in autophagy and proteasome activity in the context of Milton knockdown. Through proteomic analysis, they identified an increase in the protein levels of eIF2β, subsequently pinpointing a novel interaction within eIF subunits where eIF2β contributes to the reduction of eIF2α phosphorylation levels. Furthermore, they demonstrated that overexpression of eIF2β suppresses autophagy and leads to diminished motor function. It was also shown that in a heterozygous mutant background of eIF2β, Milton knockdown could be rescued. This work represents a novel and significant contribution to the field, revealing for the first time that the loss of mitochondria from axons can lead to impaired autophagy function via eIF2β, potentially influencing the acceleration of aging. To further support the authors' claims, several improvements are necessary, particularly in the methods of quantification and the points that should be demonstrated quantitatively. It is crucial to investigate the correlation between aging and the proteins eIF2β and eIF2α.

      Thank you so much for your review and comments. We included analyses of protein levels of eIF2α, eIF2β, and eIF2γ at 7 days and 21 days (Figure 4D). The manuscript was revised as below;

      Lines 242-245 ‘As for the other subunits of eIF2 complex, proteome analysis did not detect a significant difference in the protein levels of eIF2α and eIF2γ between milton knockdown and control flies at 7 and 21 days (Figure 4D).’

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In the manuscript, the authors aimed to elucidate the molecular mechanism that explains neurodegeneration caused by the depletion of axonal mitochondria. In Drosophila, starting with siRNA depletion of Milton and Miro, the authors attempted to demonstrate that the depletion of axonal mitochondria induces the defect in autophagy. From proteome analyses, the authors hypothesized that autophagy is impacted by the abundance of eIF2β and the phosphorylation of eIF2α. The authors followed up the proteome analyses by testing the effects of eIF2β overexpression and depletion on autophagy. With the results from those experiments, the authors proposed a novel role of eIF2β in proteostasis that underlies neurodegeneration derived from the depletion of axonal mitochondria.

      The manuscript has several weaknesses. The reader should take extra care while reading this manuscript and when acknowledging the findings and the model in this manuscript.

      The defect in autophagy by the depletion of axonal mitochondria is one of the main claims in the paper. The authors should work more on describing their results of LC3-II/LC3-I ratio, as there are multiple ways to interpret the LC3 blotting for the autophagy assessment. Lysosomal defects result in the accumulation of LC3-II thus the LC3-II/LC3-I ratio gets higher. On the other hand, the defect in the early steps of autophagosome formation could result in a lower LC3-II/LC3-I ratio. From the results of the actual blotting, the LC3-I abundance is the source of the major difference for all conditions (Milton RNAi and eIF2β overexpression and depletion). In the text, the authors simply state the observation of their LC3 blotting. The manuscript lacks an explanation of how to evaluate the LC3-II/LC3-I ratio. Also, the manuscript lacks an elaboration on what the results of the LC3 blotting indicate about the state of autophagy by the depletion of axonal mitochondria.

      Thank you for pointing it out, and we apologize for an insufficient description of the result. We included quantitation of the levels of LC3-I and LC3-II in Figure 2A, 2D, 3D, 6B and 7B. As the reviewer pointed out, changes in the LC3-II/LC3-I ratio do not necessarily indicate autophagy defects. However, since p62 accumulation (Figure 2B, 2E, 3E, 6C, 7C in the original manuscript), these results collectively suggest that autophagy is lowered. We revised the manuscript to include this discussion as below:

      Lines 174-186 ‘During autophagy progression, LC3 is conjugated with phosphatidylethanolamine to form LC3-II, which localizes to isolation membranes and autophagosomes. LC3-I accumulation occurs when autophagosome formation is impaired, and LC3-II accumulation is associated with lysosomal defects(31,32). p62 is an autophagy substrate, and its accumulation suggests autophagic defects(31,32). We found that milton knockdown increased LC3-I, and the LC3-II/LC3-I ratio was lower in milton knockdown flies than in control flies at 14-day-old (Figure 2A). We also analyzed p62 levels in head lysates sequentially extracted using detergents with different stringencies (1% Triton X-100 and 2% SDS). Western blotting revealed that p62 levels were increased in the brains of 14-day-old of milton knockdown flies (Figure 2B). The increase in the p62 level was significant in the Triton X-100-soluble fraction but not in the SDS-soluble fraction (Figure 2B), suggesting that depletion of axonal mitochondria impairs the degradation of less-aggregated proteins.’

      Line 189-190 : ‘At 30 day-old, LC3-I was still higher, and the LC3-II/LC3-I ratio was lower, in milton knockdown compared to the control (Figure 2D).’

      Line 199-201: ‘However, in contrast with milton knockdown, Pfk knockdown did not affect the levels of LC3-I, LC3-II or the LC3-II/LC3-I ratio (Figure 3D).’

      Line 275-281: ‘Neuronal overexpression of eIF2β increased LC3-II, while the LC3-II/LC3-I ratio was not significantly different (Figure 6A and B). Overexpression of eIF2β significantly increased the p62 level in the Triton X-100-soluble fraction (Figure 6C, 4-fold vs. control, p < 0.005 (1% Triton X-100)) but not in the SDS-soluble fraction (Figure 6C, 2-fold vs. control, p = 0.062 (2% SDS)), as observed in brains of milton knockdown flies (Figure 2B). These data suggest that neuronal overexpression of eIF2β accumulates autophagic substrates.’

      Line 307-315: ‘Neuronal knockdown of milton causes accumulation of autophagic substrate p62 in the Triton X-100-soluble fraction (Figure 2B), and we tested if lowering eIF2β ameliorates it. We found that eIF2β heterozygosity caused a mild increase in LC3-I levels and decreases in LC3-II levels, resulting in a significantly lower LC3-II/LC3-I ratio in milton knockdown flies (Figure 7B). eIF2β heterozygosity decreased the p62 level in the Triton X-100-soluble fraction in the brains of milton knockdown flies (Figure 7C). The p62 level in the SDS-soluble fraction, which is not sensitive to milton knockdown (Figure 2B), was not affected (Figure 7C). These results suggest that suppression of eIF2β ameliorates the impairment of autophagy caused by milton knockdown.’

      Another main point of the paper is the up-regulation of eIF2β by depleting the axonal mitochondria leads to the proteostasis crisis. This claim is formed by the findings from the proteome analyses. The authors should have presented their proteomic data with much thorough presentation and explanation. As in the experiment scheme shown in Figure 4A, the author did two proteome analyses: one from the 7-day-old sample and the other from the 21-day-old sample. The manuscript only shows a plot of the result from the 7-day-old sample, but that of the result from the 21-day-old sample. For the 21-day-old sample, the authors only provided data in the supplemental table, in which the abundance ratio of eIF2β from the 21-day-old sample is 0.753, meaning eIF2β is depleted in the 21-day-old sample. The authors should have explained the impact of the eIF2β depletion in the 21-day-old sample, so the reader could fully understand the authors' interpretation of the role of eIF2β on proteostasis.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We included plots of the results of 21-day-old proteome as a part of the main figure (Figure 4C). As the reviewer pointed out, eIF2β protein levels are reduced at the 21-day-old. Since a reduction in the eIF2_β_ ameliorated milton knockdown-induced locomotor defects in aged flies (Figure 7D), the reduction in eIF2β observed in the 21-day-old milton knockdown flies is not likely to negatively contribute to milton knockdown-induced defects. We included this discussion in the manuscript as below:

      Lines 337-341:‘eIF2β protein levels are reduced at the 21-day-old; however, since a reduction in the eIF2β ameliorated milton knockdown-induced locomotor defects in aged flies (Figure 7), the reduction in eIF2β observed in the 21-day-old is not likely to negatively contribute to milton knockdown-induced defects.’

      The manuscript consists of several weaknesses in its data and explanation regarding translation.

      (1) The authors are likely misunderstanding the effect of phosphorylation of eIF2α on translation. The P-eIF2α is inhibitory for translation initiation. However, the authors seem to be mistaken that the down-regulation of P-eIF2α inhibits translation.

      We are sorry for our insufficient explanation in the previous version. As the reviewer pointed out, it is well known that the phosphorylated form of eIF2α inhibits translation initiation. Neuronal knockdown of milton caused a reduction in p-eIF2α (Figure 4J and K), and it also lowered translation (Figure 5); the relationship between these two events is currently unclear. We do not think that a reduction in the p-eIF2α suppressed translation; rather, we propose that the unbalance of expression levels of the components of eIF2 complexes negatively affects translation. We revised discussion sections to describe our interpretation more in detail as below:

      Line 368-378: ‘eIF2β is a component of eIF2, which meditates translational regulation and ISR initiation. When ISR is activated, phosphorylated eIF2α suppresses global translation and induces translation of ATF4, which mediates transcription of autophagy-related genes(39,40). Since ISR can positively regulate autophagy, we suspected that suppression of ISR underlies a reduction in autophagic protein degradation. We found neuronal knockdown of milton reduced phosphorylated eIF2α, suggesting that ISR is reduced (Figure 4). However, we also found that global translation was reduced (Figure 5). It may be possible that increased levels of eIF2β disrupt the eIF2 complex or alter its functions. The stoichiometric mismatch caused by an imbalance of eIF2 components may inhibit ISR induction. Supporting this model, we found that eIF2β upregulation reduced the levels of p-eIF2α (Figure 6).’

      We have revised the graphical abstract and removed the eIF2 complex since its role in the loss of proteostasis caused by milton knockdown has not been elucidated yet.

      (2) The result of polysome profiling in Figure 4H is implausible. By 10%-25% sucrose density gradient, polysomes are not expected to be observed. The authors should have used a gradient with much denser sucrose, such as 10-50%.

      Thank you for pointing it out. It was a mistake of 10-50%, and we apologize for the oversight. It was corrected (Figure 5).

      (3) Also on the polysome profiling, as in the method section, the authors seemed to fractionate ultra-centrifuged samples from top to bottom and then measured A260 by a plate reader. In that case, the authors should have provided a line plot with individual data points, not the smoothly connected ones in the manuscript.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We revised the graph (Figure 5).

      (4) For both the results from polysome profiling and puromycin incorporation (Figure 4H and I), the difference between control siRNA and Milton siRNA are subtle, if not nonexistent. This might arise from the lack of spatial resolution in their experiment as the authors used head lysate for these data but the ratio of Phospho-eIF2α/eIF2α only changes in the axons, based on their results in Figure 4E-G. The authors could have attempted to capture the spatial resolution for the axonal translation to see the difference between control siRNA and Milton siRNA.

      Thank you for your comment. We agree that it would be an interesting experiment, but it will take a considerable amount of time to analyze axonal translation with spatial resolution. We will try to include such analyses in the future. For this manuscript, we revised the discussion section to include the reviewer's suggestion as below;

      Lines 351-353: ‘Further analyses to dissect the effects of milton knockdown on proteostasis and translation in the cell body and axon by experiments with spatial resolution would be needed.’

      Recommendations for the authors:

      From the Reviewing Editor:

      As the Reviewing Editor, I have read your manuscript and the associated peer reviews. I have concerns about publishing this work in its current form. I think that your manuscript cannot claim to have found a novel function of eIF2beta because of technical uncertainties and conceptual problems that should be addressed.

      Thank you so much for your review and comments. We addressed all the concerns raised by the reviewers. Point-by-point responses are listed below.

      First, your manuscript is based partly on what appears to be a mistaken understanding of the mechanistic basis of the ISR. Specifically, eIF2 is a heterotrimeric complex of alpha, beta, and gamma subunits. When eIF2a is phosphorylated, the heterotrimer adopts a new conformation. This conformation directly binds and inhibits eIF2B, the decameric GEF that exchanges the GDP bound to the gamma subunit of the eIF2 complex for GTP. Unless I misunderstood your paper, you seem to propose that decreasing levels of phospho-eIF2a will inhibit translation, but this is backward from what we know about the ISR.

      Thank you for your insightful comment, and we are sorry for the confusion. We did not mean to propose that decreasing levels of phospho-eIF2_a_ inhibits translation. We apologize for our insufficient explanation, which might have caused a misunderstanding (Lines 312-318 in the original version). We agree with the reviewer that ‘mismatch due to elevated eIF2-beta could change the behavior of the ISR’. We revised the text in the result section as follows:

      Lines 259-264 (in the Result section) ‘Phosphorylation of eIF2α induces conformational changes in the eIF2 complex and inhibits global translation(36). To analyze the effects of milton knockdown on translation, we performed polysome gradient centrifugation to examine the level of ribosome binding to mRNA. Since p-eIF2α was downregulated, we hypothesized that milton knockdown would enhance translation. However, unexpectedly, we found that milton knockdown significantly reduced the level of mRNAs associated with polysomes (Figure 5A and B).’

      Lines 368-378 (in the Discussion section): ‘eIF2β is a component of eIF2, which meditates translational regulation and ISR initiation. When ISR is activated, phosphorylated eIF2α suppresses global translation and induces translation of ATF4, which mediates transcription of autophagy-related genes(39,40). Since ISR can positively regulate autophagy, we suspected that suppression of ISR underlies a reduction in autophagic protein degradation. We found neuronal knockdown of milton reduced phosphorylated eIF2α, suggesting that ISR is reduced (Figure 4). However, we also found that global translation was reduced (Figure 5). It may be possible that increased levels of eIF2β disrupt the eIF2 complex or alter its functions. The stoichiometric mismatch caused by an imbalance of eIF2 components may inhibit ISR induction. Supporting this model, we found that eIF2β upregulation reduced the levels of p-eIF2α (Figure 6).’

      It may be possible that a stoichiometric mismatch due to elevated eIF2-beta could change the behavior of the ISR, but your paper doesn't adequately address the expression levels of all three eIF2 subunits: alpha, beta, and gamma. The proteomic data shown in Fig 4B is unconvincing on its own because the changes in the beta subunit are subtle. The Western blot in Figure 4C suggests that the KD changes the mass or mobility of the beta subunit, and most importantly, there are no Western blots measuring the levels of eIF2a, eIF2a-phospho, or eIF2-gamma.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment and agree that the stoichiometric mismatch due to elevated eIF2β may interfere with ISR. We found overexpression of eIF2β lowered p-eIF2 alpha (Figure S2 in V1), which supports this model. We included this data in the main figure in the revised manuscript (Figure 6D) and revised the text as below:

      Lines 279-281: ‘Since milton knockdown reduced the p-eIF2α level (Figure 4K), we asked whether an increase in eIF2β affects p-eIF2α. Neuronal overexpression of eIF2β did not affect the eIF2α level but significantly decreased the p-eIF2α level (Figure 6D, E).’

      Expression data of eIF2α and eIF2γ from proteomic analyses has been extracted from proteome analyses and included as a table (Figure 4D). Western blots of phospho-eIF2a (Figure S1 in V1) in the main figure (Figure 4G). The result section was revised as below;

      Lines 242-245: ‘As for the other subunits of eIF2 complex, proteome analysis did not detect a significant difference in the protein levels of eIF2α and eIF2γ between milton knockdown and control flies at 7 and 21 days (Figure 4D).’

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      L125-128: In this section, while the efficiency of Milton knockdown is referenced from a previous publication, it is necessary to also mention that the Miro knockdown has been similarly reported in the literature. Additionally, the Methods section lacks details on the Miro RNAi line used, and Table 2 does not include the genotype for Miro RNAi. This information should be included for clarity and completeness.

      Thank you for pointing it out. Knockdown efficiency with this strain has been reported (Iijima-Ando et al., PLoS Genet, 2012). We revised the text to include citation and knockdown efficiency as follows:

      Lines 139-147: ‘There was no significant increase in ubiquitinated proteins in milton knockdown flies at 1-day old, suggesting that the accumulation of ubiquitinated proteins caused by milton knockdown is age-dependent (Figure S1). We also analyzed the effect of the neuronal knockdown of Miro, a partner of milton, on the accumulation of ubiquitin-positive proteins. Since severe knockdown of Miro in neurons causes lethality, we used UAS-Miro RNAi strain with low knockdown efficiency, whose expression driven by elav-GAL4 caused 30% reduction of Miro mRNA in head extract(24). Although there was a tendency for increased ubiquitin-positive puncta in Miro knockdown brains, the difference was not significant (Figure 1B, p>0.05 between control RNAi and Miro RNAi). These data suggest that the depletion of axonal mitochondria induced by milton knockdown leads to the accumulation of ubiquitinated proteins before neurodegeneration occurs.’

      L132-L136: The current phrasing in this section suggests an increase in ubiquitinated proteins for both Milton and Miro knockdowns. However, since there is no significant difference noted for Miro, it is incorrect to state an increase in ubiquitin-positive puncta. Furthermore, combining the results of Milton knockdown to claim an increase in ubiquitinated proteins prior to neurodegeneration is misleading. At the very least, the expression here needs to be moderated to accurately reflect the findings.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We revised the text as above.

      L137-L141: Results in Figure 1 indicate that Milton knockdown leads to an increase in ubiquitinated proteins at 14 days, while Miro knockdown shows no difference from the control at either 14 or 30 days. Conversely, both the control and Miro exhibit an increase in ubiquitinated proteins with aging, but this trend does not seem to apply to Milton knockdown. This observation suggests that Milton KD may not affect the changes in protein quality control associated with aging. It implies that Milton's function might be more related to protein homeostasis in younger cells, or that changes due to aging might overshadow the effects of Milton knockdown. These interpretations should be included in the Results or Discussion sections for a more comprehensive analysis.

      Thank you for your insightful comment. We revised the text to include those points as follows:

      Lines 152-153: ‘These results suggest that depletion of axonal mitochondria may have more impact on proteostasis in young neurons than in old neurons.’

      Lines 355-362: ‘The depletion of axonal mitochondria and accumulation of abnormal proteins are both characteristics of aged brains(37,38). Our results suggest that the loss of axonal mitochondria is an event upstream of proteostasis collapse during aging. Neuronal knockdown of milton had more impact on proteostasis in young neurons than the old neurons (Figure 1). Proteome analyses also showed that age-related pathways, such as immune responses, are enhanced in young flies with milton knockdown (Table 2). The reduction in axonal transport of mitochondria may be one of the triggering events of age-related changes and accelerates the onset of aging in the brain.’

      L143 : Please remove the erroneously included quotation mark.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We corrected it.

      L145-L147:

      - While it is understood that Milton knockdown results in a reduction of mitochondria in axons, as reported previously and seemingly indicated in Figure 1E, this paper repeatedly refers to axonal depletion of mitochondria. Therefore, it would be beneficial to quantitatively assess the number of mitochondria in the axonal terminals located in the lamina via electron microscopy. Such quantification would robustly reinforce the argument that mitochondrial absence in axons is a consequence of Milton knockdown.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We included quantitation of the number of mitochondria in the synaptic terminals (Figure 1E).

      The text and figure legend was revised accordingly:

      Lines 156-157: ‘As previously reported(24), the number of mitochondria in presynaptic terminals decreased in milton knockdown (Figure 1E).’

      - The knockdown of Milton is known to reduce mitochondrial transport from an early stage, but what about swelling? By observing swelling at 1 day and 14 days, it may be possible to confirm the onset of swelling and discuss its correlation with the accumulation of ubiquitinated proteins.

      Quantitation of axonal swelling has also been included (Figure 1F).

      We appreciate reviewer’s comments on the correlation between the accumulation of ubiquitinated proteins and axonal swelling. Axonal swelling was not observed at 3-days-old (Iijima-Ando et al., PLoS Genetics, 2012), indicating that axonal swelling is an age-dependent event. Dense materials are found in swollen axons more often than in normal axons, suggesting a positive correlation between disruption of proteostasis and axonal damage. It would be interesting to analyze the time course of events further; however, we feel it is beyond the scope of this manuscript. We revised the text as below to include this discussion:

      Lines 157-159: ‘The swelling of presynaptic terminals, characterized by the enlargement and roundness, was not reported at 3-day-old(24) but observed at this age with about 4% of total presynaptic terminals (Figure 1F, asterisks).’

      Lines 162-167: ‘Dense materials are rarely found in age-matched control neurons, indicating that milton knockdown induces abnormal protein accumulation in the presynaptic terminals (Figure 1G and H). In milton knockdown neurons, dense materials are found in swollen presynaptic terminals more often than in presynaptic terminals without swelling, suggesting a positive correlation between the disruption of proteostasis and axonal damage (Figure 1G).’

      Lines 362-365: ‘Disruption of proteostasis is expected to contribute neurodegeneration(38), and it would be interesting to analyze the sequence of protein accumulation and axonal degeneration in milton knockdown ((24,29) and Figure 1) in detail with higher time resolution.’

      L147-L151: Though Figures 1F and 1G provide qualitative representations, it is advisable to quantitatively assess whether dense materials significantly accumulate. Such quantitative analysis would be required to verify the accumulation of dense materials in the context of the study.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We included quantitation of the number of neurons with dense material (Figure 1G). We revised the manuscript as follows:

      Line 161-163: ‘Dense materials are rarely found in age-matched control neurons, indicating that milton knockdown induces abnormal protein accumulation in the presynaptic terminals (Figure 1G and H).’

      Regarding Figure 1B, C:

      - Even though the count of puncta in the whole brain appears to be fewer than 400, the magnification of the optic lobe suggests a substantial presence of puncta. Please clarify in the Methods section what constitutes a puncta and whether the quantification in the whole brain is based on a 2D or 3D analysis. Detail the methodology used for quantification.

      Thank you for your comment. We revised the method section to include more details as below:

      Lines 434-437: ‘Quantitative analysis was performed using ImageJ (National Institutes of Health) with maximum projection images derived from Z-stack images acquired with same settings. Puncta was identified with mean intensity and area using ImageJ.’

      - What about 1-day-old specimens? Does Milton knockdown already show an increase in ubiquitinated protein accumulation at this early stage? Investigating whether ubiquitin-protein accumulation is involved in aging promotion or is already prevalent during developmental stages is a necessary experiment.

      Thank you for your comment. We carried out immunostaining with an anti-ubiquitin antibody in the brains at 1-day-old. No significant difference was detected between the control and milton knockdown. This result has been included as Figure S1 in the revised manuscript. The result section was revised as below:

      Line 136-139 ‘There was no significant increase in ubiquitinated proteins in milton knockdown flies at 1-day old, suggesting that the accumulation of ubiquitinated proteins caused by milton knockdown is age-dependent (Figure S1).’

      For Figure 1E: In the Electron Microscopy section of the Methods, define how swollen axons were identified and describe the quantification methodology used.

      Thank you for your comment. Swollen axons are, unlike normal axons, round in shape and enlarged. We revised the text as below;

      Lines 157-160: ‘The swelling of presynaptic terminals, characterized by the enlargement and roundness, was not reported at 3-day-old(24) but observed at this age with about 4% of total presynaptic terminals (Figure 1F, asterisks).’

      Lines 683-684, Figure 1 legend: ‘Swollen presynaptic terminals (asterisks in (F)), characterized by the enlargement and higher circularity, were found more frequently in milton knockdown neurons.’

      L218-L219: Throughout the text, the expression 'eIF2β is "upregulated" in response to Milton knockdown' is frequently used. However, considering the presented results, it might be more accurate to interpret that under the condition of Milton knockdown, eIF2β is not undergoing degradation but rather remains stable.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We replaced ‘upregulated’ with ‘increased’ throughout the text.

      L234-L235: On what basis is the conclusion drawn that there is a reduction? Given that three experiments have been conducted, it would be possible and more convincing to quantify the results to determine if there is a significant decrease.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We quantified the AUC of polysome fraction and carried out statistical analysis. There is a significant decrease in polysome in milton knockdown, and this result has been included in Figure 5B. We revised the figure and the legend accordingly.

      L236: 5H-> 4H

      Thank you for pointing it out, and we are sorry for the confusion. We corrected it.

      L238-L239: Since there is no significant difference observed, it may not be accurate to interpret a reduction in puromycin incorporation.

      Thank you for pointing it out. As described above, quantification of polysome fractions showed that milton knockdown significantly reduce polysome (Figure 5B). We revised the manuscript as below;

      Lines 263-264: ‘However, unexpectedly, we found that milton knockdown significantly reduced the level of mRNAs associated with polysomes (Figure 5A and B).’

      Figure 5D and Figure 6D: Climbing assays have been conducted, but I believe experiments should also be performed to examine whether overexpression or heterozygous mutants of eIF2β induce or suppress degeneration.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We analyzed the eyes with eIF2_β_ overexpression for neurodegeneration. Although there was a tendency of elevated neurodegeneration in the retina with eIF2_β_ overexpression, the difference between control and eIF2_β_ overexpression did not reach statistical significance (Figure S2). This result has been included as Figure S2 in the revised manuscript, and the following sentences have been included in the text:

      Lines 288-293: ‘We asked if eIF2β overexpression causes neurodegeneration, as depletion of axonal mitochondria in the photoreceptor neurons causes axon degeneration in an age-dependent manner(24). eIF2β overexpression in photoreceptor neurons tends to increase neurodegeneration in aged flies, while it was not statistically significant (p>0.05, Figure S2).’

      L271-L272: The results in Figure 6B are surprising. I anticipated a greater increase compared to the Milton knockdown alone. While p62 appears to be reduced, it is not clear why these results lead to the conclusion that lowering eIF2β rescues autophagic impairment. Please add a discussion section to address this point.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We apologize for the unclear description of the result. Milton knockdown flies show p62 accumulation (Figure 2), and deleting one copy of eIF2beta in milton knockdown background reduced p62 accumulation (Figure 7C). We revised the text as below:

      Lines 307-315: ‘Neuronal knockdown of milton causes accumulation of autophagic substrate p62 in the Triton X-100-soluble fraction (Figure 2B), and we tested if lowering eIF2β ameliorates it. We found that eIF2β heterozygosity caused a mild increase in LC3-I levels and decreases in LC3-II levels, resulting in a significantly lower LC3-II/LC3-I ratio in milton knockdown flies (Figure 7B). eIF2β heterozygosity decreased the p62 level in the Triton X-100-soluble fraction in the brains of milton knockdown flies (Figure 7C). The p62 level in the SDS-soluble fraction, which is not sensitive to milton knockdown (Figure 2B), was not affected (Figure 7C). These results suggest that suppression of eIF2β ameliorates the impairment of autophagy caused by milton knockdown.’

      L369: Please specify the source of the anti-ubiquitin antibody used.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We included the antibody information in the method section.

      Figure 7: While the relationship between Milton knockdown and the eIF2β and eIF2α proteins has been elucidated through the authors' efforts, I would like to see an investigation into whether eIF2β is upregulated and eIF2α phosphorylation is reduced in simply aged Drosophila. This would help us understand the correlation between aging and eIF2 protein dynamics.

      Thank you for your comment. We agree that it is an important question, and we are working on it. However, we feel that it is beyond the scope of the current manuscript.

      L645-L646: If the mushroom body is identified using mito-GFP, then include mito-GFP in the genotype listed in Supplementary Table 2.

      We are sorry for the oversight. We corrected it in Supplementary Table 2.

      Additionally, while it is presumed that the mito-GFP signal decreases in axons with Milton RNAi, how was the lobe tips area accurately selected for analysis? Please include these details along with a comprehensive description of the quantification methodology in the Methods section.

      Thank you for your comment. Although the mito-GFP signal in the axon is weak in the milton knockdown neurons, it is sufficient to distinguish the mushroom body structure from the background. We revised the method section to include this information in the method section:

      Line 437-438: ‘For eIF2α and p-eIF2α immunostaining, the mushroom body was detected by mitoGFP expression.’

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Point-by-point response to the public review:

      General Comment: “Using computational modeling, this manuscript explores the effect of growth feedback on the performance of gene networks capable of adaptation. The authors selected 425 hypothetical synthetic circuits that were shown to achieve nearly perfect adaptation in two earlier computational studies (see Ma et al. 2009, and Shi et al. 2017). They examined the effects of cell growth feedback by introducing additional terms to the ordinary differential equation-based models, and performed numerical simulations to check the retainment and the loss of the adaptation responses of the circuits in the presence of growth feedback. The authors show that growth feedback can disrupt the gene network adaptation dynamics in different ways, and report some exceptional core motifs which allow for robust performance in the presence of growth feedback. They also used a metric to establish a scaling law between a circuit robustness measure and the strength of growth feedback. These results have important implications in the field of synthetic biology, where unforeseen interactions between designed gene circuits and the host often disrupt the desired behavior. The paper’s conclusions are supported by their simulation results, although these are presented in their summary formats and it would be useful for the community if the detailed results for each topology were available as a supplementary file or through the authors’ GitHub repository.”

      We are grateful for the referee’s positive evaluation of our work. We have updated our GitHub and OSF repositories with detailed results for each topology. Additionally, we have included other simulation codes, result data, and detailed explanations in these two repositories that may be of interest to our readers.

      Strength 1: “This work included a detailed investigation of the reasons for adaptation failure upon introducing cell growth to the systems. The comprehensiveness of the analysis makes the work stand out among studies of functional screening of network topologies of gene regulation.”

      We are grateful for the referee’s positive assessment of our work, notably the recognition of the ‘detailed investigation’ we conducted, and the ‘comprehensiveness of the analysis’ we provided.

      Strength 2: “The authors’ approaches for assessment of robustness, such as the survival ratio Q, can be useful for a wide range of topologies beyond adaptation. The scaling law obtained with those approaches is interesting.”

      We are grateful for the referee’s positive evaluation of our defined factors for assessing circuit robustness. We also appreciate the acknowledgment of the “interesting” nature of the scaling law we discovered using the assessment factor R.

      Weaknesses 1: “The title suggests that the work investigates the ’effects of growth feedback on gene circuits’. However, the performance of ’nearly perfect adaptation’ was chosen for the majority of the work, leaving the question of whether the authors’ conclusion regarding the effects of growth feedback is applicable to other functional networks.”

      We agree that our present title can be too broad, and we have changed it from “Effects of growth feedback on gene circuits: A dynamical understanding” to “Effects of growth feedback on adaptive gene circuits: A dynamical understanding”. Although we have some brief results and discussions on the gene circuits with bistability, we admit that most of our results and discussions are focused on circuits that have adaptation.

      The new title is more specific and should be a more appropriate summary of the paper.

      Weaknesses 2: “This work relies extensively on an earlier study, evaluating only a selected set of 425 topologies that were shown to give adaptive responses (Shi et al., 2017). This limited selection has two potential issues. First, as the authors mentioned in the introduction, growth feedback can also induce emerging dynamics even without existing function-enabling gene circuits, as an example of the ”effects of growth feedback on gene circuits”. Limiting the investigation to only successful circuits for adaptation makes it unclear whether growth feedback can turn the circuits that failed to produce adaptation by themselves into adaptation-enabling circuits. Secondly, as the Shi et al. (2017) study also used numerical experiments to achieve their conclusions about successful topologies, it is unclear whether the numerical experiments in the present study are compatible with the earlier work regarding the choice of equation forms and ranges of parameter values. The authors also assumed that all readers have sufficient understanding of the 425 topologies and their derivation before reading this paper.”

      We agree with the reviewer that several issues need to be clarified in our new manuscript. We have added new discussions for all of them.

      We agree with the reviewer that growth feedback could turn the non-adaptive circuits into adaptationenabling circuits, and this indeed presents a compelling topic for future research. We have added the following discussions to our paper, talking about a relevant matter. We find that in our simulated dataset, there are cases where a higher degree of growth feedback can restore the adaptation that has been lost in a circuit. However, as we discussed in this new paragraph, a comprehensive study in the direction of turning non-adaptive circuits into adaptation-enabling circuits will “require entirely different approaches for sampling circuit parameters and selecting candidate network topologies, demanding significantly high computational costs.” Given that this topic extends beyond the scope of the current paper, we leave this matter to future research.

      “Although the primary focus of this paper is on how growth feedback can undermine an originally adaptive circuit and how to design circuits that are robust against such feedback, our simulated dataset reveals instances where growth feedback can benefit the circuit within certain ranges. Specifically, we identified 2,092 circuits across 306 different topologies where adaption, lost at an intermediate level of growth feedback, is restored at higher levels. This is 1.4% of all circuits tested. We anticipate that additional circuits exhibiting this loss-and-recovery behavior exist, as our sampling of six discrete levels of k<sub>g</sub> (0,0.2,0.4,0.6,0.8,1.0) might have overlooked numerous cases. This result again suggests the possible advantages of growth feedback in gene circuits (Tan et al., 2009; Nevozhay et al., 2012; Deris et al., 2013; Feng et al., 2014; Melendez-Alvarez and Tian, 2022). A comprehensive study into how growth feedback can endow or enhance adaption in circuits would require entirely different approaches for sampling circuit parameters and selecting candidate network topologies, demanding significantly high computational costs. Given that this topic extends beyond the scope of the current paper, we leave this matter to future research.”

      We have added the following discussions about the reasoning behind using the 425 network topologies selected from the study Shi et al. (2017).

      “We use these 425 network topologies from the study (Shi et al., 2017), avoiding redundancy with established results. Due to the unique focus of our research on the effects of growth feedback and the need to evaluate quantitative ratios of robust circuits among all functional ones, we have chosen to use a 20-fold increase in the number of random parameter sets for each network topology compared to the simulations in (Shi et al., 2017). This approach makes it computationally prohibitive to scan all possible 16,038 three-node circuits. We carefully follow the settings in (Shi et al., 2017), which also analyzed TRNs with the AND logic as in this paper. Detailed descriptions of our simulation experiments are provided in the Methods section. To make our results more convincing, we have adopted a set of adaptation criteria that are stricter than those used in (Shi et al., 2017). Consequently, the ratio of adaptive circuits is somewhat lower in our study, with 4 out of the 425 network topologies not demonstrating adaptation.”

      Other than the more strict adaptation criteria and much larger sampling sizes, as we mentioned in this paragraph, we have carefully followed the simulation details of the study Shi et al. (2017). This includes but is not limited to: the dynamical equations (when k<sub>g</sub> = 0), the input signals, the scales and ranges of the circuit parameters to be randomly sampled, and the sampling method (Latin hypercube sampling). One of the authors of the current paper was also the first author of the study Shi et al. (2017), who helped us verify the details of simulations (among many other contributions). These identical settings justify our usage of the established results with the 425 network topologies.

      To provide more information about these 425 network topologies, We have added the following introduction. It introduces the structural features of the networks, especially the shared core motifs for adaptation. In our GitHub and OSF repositories, we have also provided relevant data about the 425 topologies, including the topology structures and the parameter sets we scanned.

      “These topologies can be classified into two families based on the core topology: networks with a negative feedback loop (NFBL) and networks with an incoherent feed-forward loop (IFFL) (Shi et al., 2017). More specifically, there are 206 network topologies in the NFBL family. All of these NFBL topologies have a negative feedback loop for node B. This negative feedback loop can be formed by the loop from node B to A and back to B (such as the circuit shown in Fig. 1 (a)), by node B to C and back to B, or by a longer route, from node B to A and then to C and back to B. There is always a self-activation link from B to B in all these 206 NFBL networks. There are 219 network topologies in the IFFL family. All of them have two feed-forward pathways from the input node A to the output node C. One pathway goes from node A to C directly, while the other involves node B in the middle. One of the pathways is activating while the other one is inhibitory.”

      Weaknesses 3: “The authors’ model does not describe the impact of growth via a biological mechanism: they model growth as an additional dilution rate and calculate growth rate based on a phenomenological description with growth rate occurring at a maximum (k<sub>g</sub>) scaled by the circuit ’burden’ b(t). Therefore, the authors’ model does not capture potential growth rate changes in parameter values (e.g., synthetic protein production falls with increasing growth rate; see Scott & Hwa, 2023).”

      In our paper, we consider dilution due to cell growth as the dominant factor of growth feedback. Here we compared the adaptive circuits under no-growth conditions and their ability to maintain their adaptive behaviors after dilution into a fresh medium, which mediated a significant dilution to the circuits. This is based on our previous work, Zhang, et al. Nature chemical biology 16.6 (2020): 695-701. We agree that an increased growth rate can change synthetic protein production. However, the dynamic roles of the dilution and growthaffected production rate should be analogous, given that they both act as inhibitory factors arising from cell growth as mentioned by the reviewer. Still, we agree that taking the growth effect on the production rate into account would provide a more comprehensive study, but it is beyond the scope of the present work. We have added the following paragraph in the Discussion section of our paper.

      “In our paper, we consider dilution due to cell growth as the dominant factor of growth feedback. Here we compared the adaptive circuits under no-growth conditions and their ability to maintain their adaptive behaviors after dilution into a fresh medium, which mediated a significant dilution to the circuits. This is based on our previous work (Zhang et al. (2020)). However, growth feedback is inherently complex (Klumpp et al. (2009)). For instance, an increased growth rate can change protein synthesis rate (Hintsche and Klumpp (2013); Scott and Hwa (2023)), and cell growth rates can affect the distribution of protein expression in cell populations (Gouda et al. (2019)). In our paper, we concentrate on a simplified model with dilution, which we consider to have captured the dominant factor. The dynamic roles of the dilution and growth-affected production rate should be analogous, given that they both act as inhibitory factors arising from cell growth. Incorporating the impact of growth rate on protein synthesis into our model would offer a more comprehensive analysis, a task beyond the scope of this paper but presenting an intriguing opportunity for future research to address the complexities of growth feedback.”

      Weaknesses 4: “The authors made several claims about the bifurcations (infinite-period, saddle-node, etc) underlying the abrupt changes leading to failures of adaptations. There is a lack of evidence supporting these claims. Both local and global bifurcations can be demonstrated with semi-analytic approaches such as numerical continuation along with investigations of eigenvalues of the Jacobian matrix. The claims based on ODE solutions alone are not sound.”

      After our further simulations and verification, we found that most of the bifurcation-induced failures we mentioned in type-V and type-VI failures should be categorized as bistability or multistability-induced failures. They are still abrupt switching between adaptive and non-adaptive states, as we described in the previous version of the manuscript. However, they are actually still far away from the bifurcation points at the critical k<sub>g</sub>. We have corrected all relevant descriptions and figures, including panel Fig. 4 (c) and its captions. We have added the following paragraph in the paper to explain this issue.

      “One might expect bifurcations to play an important role in many type-V and type-VI failures. However, in our simulations, failures precisely at the bifurcation point are not observed. This is because the bifurcation points under consideration, such as fold bifurcations, are where one of the attraction basins diminishes to zero. For a failure to occur exactly at the bifurcation point, the initial condition would need to coincide precisely with the infinitesimally small basin just before it vanishes. More realistically, failures almost always largely precede the exact bifurcation point. They happen while the basin is still contracting and the basin boundary crosses the initial condition or O<sub>1</sub>. An example is shown in Fig. 4(b), where bistability persists, yet the lighter orange basin with a larger O<sub>1</sub>(C) cannot be reached as the boundary shifts away from the initial condition A<sub>0</sub> and B<sub>0</sub>. As another example, in Fig. 4 (c) from a different circuit, the higher O<sub>2</sub>(C) state disappears at k<sub>g</sub> ≈ 0.012 and switches to a lower O<sub>2</sub>(C), but this point is not a bifurcation.

      It is the point where the stable O<sub>1</sub> continuously crosses the basin boundary of O<sub>2</sub>.”

      Our further simulations have verified the existence of the oscillation-related bifurcations. We have added a new appendix discussing the phenomena associated with them in more detail.

      Weaknesses 5: “The impact of biochemical noise is not evaluated in this work; the author’s analysis is only carried out in a deterministic regime.”

      In this paper, we have not taken into account biochemical noise as we focus solely on scenarios where all protein concentrations are high. In these circumstances, the influence of noise is relatively minor. Incorporating biochemical noise, which originates from various sources and possesses diverse characteristics, would significantly complicate the analysis beyond the scope of our current work. However, exploring this aspect could be an intriguing avenue for future research. We have included the following discussions in our paper.

      “Our study focuses on scenarios where random noises are ignored. Realistically, gene circuits are subjected to diverse types of noise, which can complicate their predictable behavior and design. These noises can originate externally from a noisy input signal I, or intrinsically, directly affecting the circuit components. Further, these noises can be classified based on various mechanisms that cause them (Colin et al. (2017); Sartori and Tu (2011)) . And with different mechanisms, each type of noise can be characterized by different attributes such as frequency, amplitude, and noise color. These variances can lead to different impacts on the circuits, potentially necessitating unique mechanisms or designs for the attenuation of each category (Sartori and Tu (2011); Qiao et al. (2019) ). Given the extensive complexity and the need for thorough investigation, these noise-related challenges are beyond the scope of this paper and require a series of future studies.”

      Point-by-point response to the recommendations for the authors:

      Comment 1: - The authors’ github repository, detailed in their code availability statement, is currently unavailable and likely contains some of the answers to the queries here.

      We have updated our GitHub and OSF repositories with simulation codes, result data, and detailed explanations. The link to our GitHub repository in the previous version of the manuscript contained a format error, making it inaccessible to the referees. We apologize for this mistake and have corrected it.

      Comment 2:   - At present, it is not clear how the 425 topologies are created from the system of equations (Eq. 6-8) or from the circuit diagram in Fig 1a. This could do with being explicitly stated for the reader.

      We have added the following paragraph to discuss how the 425 topologies are selected and what the common motifs and connections they share.

      “Previous research identified 425 different three-node TRN network topologies that can achieve adaptation in the absence of growth feedback (Shi et al., 2017), providing the base of our computational study. These topologies can be classified into two families based on the core topology: networks with a negative feedback loop (NFBL) and networks with an incoherent feed-forward loop (IFFL) (Shi et al., 2017). More specifically, there are 206 network topologies in the NFBL family. All of these NFBL topologies have a negative feedback loop for node B. This negative feedback loop can be formed by the loop from node B to A and back to B (such as the circuit shown in Fig. 1 (a)), by node B to C and back to B, or by a longer route, from node B to A and then to C and back to B. There is always a self-activation link from B to B in all these 206 NFBL networks. There are 219 network topologies in the IFFL family. All of them have two feed-forward pathways from the input node A to the output node C. One pathway goes from node A to C directly, while the other involves node B in the middle. One of the pathways is activating while the other one is inhibitory. We use these 425 network topologies from the study (Shi et al., 2017), avoiding redundancy with established results. Due to the unique focus of our research on the effects of growth feedback and the need to evaluate quantitative ratios of robust circuits among all functional ones, we have chosen to use a 20-fold increase in the number of random parameter sets for each network topology compared to the simulations in (Shi et al., 2017). This approach makes it computationally prohibitive to scan all possible 16,038 three-node circuits. We carefully follow the settings in (Shi et al., 2017), which also analyzed TRNs with the AND logic as in this paper. Detailed descriptions of our simulation experiments are provided in the Methods section. To make our results more convincing, we have adopted a set of adaptation criteria that are stricter than those used in (Shi et al., 2017). Consequently, the ratio of adaptive circuits is somewhat lower in our study, with 4 out of the 425 network topologies not demonstrating adaptation.”

      Comment 3: - In the main text, the authors mentioned that they chose 425 network topologies for this study, whereas the number is 435 in the abstract. Please correct the error.

      The number 435 in our previous abstract referred to the 10 four-node circuits that we studied in the appendix, in addition to the 425 three-node network topologies. To avoid confusion and potential misunderstandings among readers, we have revised this expression of “435 distinct topological structures” to “more than four hundred topological structures”.

      Comment 4: - Please can the authors include the topologies they have studied in an appendix or as supplementary material. The impact of this work would increase significantly if for each topology the authors could include a pie chart similar to the one shown in Fig 2 so that others can use these results.

      We fully acknowledge the potential benefits of providing simulation results for each topology. However, including over four hundred more figures in this paper is not feasible. Moreover, we expect that many readers may also be interested in results not only for individual topologies but also for subsets sharing specific motifs or regulatory connections. Therefore, we have provided all the necessary data and codes in our GitHub repository to make these pie charts. We have included a detailed guide on how to generate these pie charts in the GitHub Readme file. These allow readers to plot the pie chart and extract distributions for any individual topology or use conditions to filter any subset of topologies as required. We believe this approach offers greater flexibility for our readers. We have also added the following explanation in the Methods section.

      “The codes implementing these criteria are available in our GitHub repository, with the link provided in the ”Code Availability” section. The failure type results for all circuits tested are available in our OSF repository, with the link provided in the ”Data Availability” section. An additional note is provided in the README file of our GitHub repository for further guidance on generating pie charts similar to Fig. 2 for any network topology or subset of topologies.”

      Comment 5: - At present, the authors have not given sufficient detail for their numerical methods (e.g. to identify bistability or oscillations) to enable the work to be repeated. I would appreciate it if the authors could expand their Methods section or provide a description of their method as an appendix. Additionally, the authors must clarify how many parameter sets per topology showed successful adaptation.

      In response to this comment, we have reorganized and expanded our Methods section, especially the new “Numerical simulations of circuit dynamics” and “Numerical criteria for functional adaptation and failure types” subsections. We added details on how we define and evaluate a “relatively steady state”, how to determine if there is an oscillation, how to determine the critical k<sub>g</sub> value, and how to determine if a failure is continuous or abrupt. Readers can also find the corresponding codes in our GitHub repository, where we provide a README file to help the readers locate the script file they need.

      The number of parameter sets per topology showed successful adaptation is precisely our definition of the Q-value. Q-values of most of the circuits we tested are shown in multiple figures in the paper. A complete table of Q-values with different topologies and different k<sub>growth</sub> values can be found in our OSF repository.

      Comment 6: - Looking at the Model Description, there seem to be multiple issues, as follows. The model should be rewritten and all simulations redone with the model corrected as described below:

      (a) The ”strength of growth feedback” is modeled by the maximal growth parameter k<sub>g</sub> in Equation (12). However, this rate does not represent growth feedback. In fact, this parameter must be present also for the system without growth feedback, Equations (6 - 8), because those cells grow as well! So Equation (12) with b(t)=0 should also be added to Equations (6 - 8), in addition to the dilution terms in each equation.

      (b) The dilution due to growth (dN/dt)*(B/N) is only added to Equations (9 - 11). This is wrong - growthaffects (dilutes) all protein concentrations, even without growth feedback, so similar terms must be added even to equations without growth feedback, i.e., to Equations (6 - 8).

      (c) The term representing growth feedback is actually the fraction 1/(1+b(t)). To adjust the strength ofgrowth feedback, some parameters should be introduced into this term. Specifically, the term currently has a Hill form with Hill coefficient = 1 and sensitivity = 1. The term should be converted into a general Hill function, and the parameters of that function should be altered to represent growth feedback. This Hill function is called a cellular (phenotypic) fitness landscape, see Nevozhay et al., 2012.

      Equations (6-8) only describe one part of the entire model we are studying. We are having these equations presented solely for the purpose of not overwhelming readers with a large number of parameters that are defined for the first time. They are not actually used in our simulations, but were only for explanations of the meaning of parameters. In our simulations throughout the paper, we only used Eqs. (9-13) (with various topologies). We have revised the texts to make this point clear. We have added the following descriptions in the section Model Description:

      “In order not to overwhelm readers with too many terms and parameters, we first describe a partial model (an isolated circuit without growth feedback) before introducing the complete model that we study in this work.”

      “Equations. (9) to (13) are the dynamical equations we actually use for simulating the circuit dynamics.”

      Additionaly, in the newly added subsection “Numerical simulations of circuit dynamics683” in the Methods, we explicitly mention that:

      “The dynamical equations we use are similar to Eqs. (9-13) but with different topologies.”

      We consider dilution due to cell growth as the dominant factor of growth feedback. In fact, we study the adaptive circuits without growth and their ability to maintain their adaptive behaviors after dilution into a fresh medium, based on a recent work [Zhang, et al., Nature Chemical Biology 16.6 (2020): 695-701]. The dynamic roles of the dilution and growth-affected production rate should be analogous, given that they both act as inhibitory factors arising from cell growth. The term mentioned in the comment is about how the burden of the circuit affects cell growth. We agree that it can be interesting to have a more comprehensive study on how different degrees of nonlinearity of this term can have different effects on the overall robustness towards the growth feedback problem, but this is not part of our primary focus and is beyond the scope of this paper. In this paper, we are mostly concerned with the variability of the strength of the growth feedback/dilution, controlled by the parameter k<sub>g</sub>, instead of the different types of nonlinearity.

      Comment 7:  - On the right side of Equation (7), the first term should be inhibitory, right?

      This is indeed an error. We accidentally reversed the regulation from A to B and B to A when inputting the formula. We have corrected both terms.

      Comment 8: - It seems to me that a better transition from Figs 6 and 7 to Fig 8 can be made. Did the authors choose the three circuits in Fig 8 based on the three distinct groups shown in Fig 6 and 7? The rationale for choosing the three topologies given the clusters identified earlier can be explained more clearly.

      We agree more explanation can be provided here. We have added the following descriptions, in the caption of Fig.8:

      “The other three curves represent circuits with different robustness levels: high (Circuit No. 98), moderate (Circuit No. 3), and low (Circuit No. 28) values of R, to demonstrate that this scaling behavior is generic. Each of these three circuit topologies is selected from one of the three groups illustrated in Fig. 6 and Fig. 7, and they have the highest Q(k<sub>g</sub> = 0) value within their respective groups.”

      and in the main text:

      “The three other curves represent circuit topologies that have a relatively high, moderate, and low value R among the 425 topologies tested, to demonstrate that this scaling behavior is generic. (These three topologies are the highest Q(k<sub>g</sub> = 0) topology in each of the three groups shown in Fig. 6 and Fig. 7.”

      Comment 9: - The insights from the neural network model seem to be very limited. It would be interesting to see if the model can predict the performance of network topologies that have not been exposed to the model during training.

      Machine learning is not a focus of this paper. For the section the comment was referring to, the main research question is on the relationship between circuit robustness and topology, and the point we are trying to make is that the robustness dependency varies across different connections — some connections are critical, while others are less impactful. The neural-network-based analysis was only used to provide further support to this point by demonstrating that through optimization, neural networks automatically assign different levels of weights to different connections in the circuits.

      We agree that it can be an interesting topic to study how machine learning can be used to help us design functional and robust circuits, as discussed in the final paragraph of the Discussion section. However, such an investigation would require a series of more comprehensive and carefully designed simulation experiments to validate if “neural networks can predict the performance of network topologies that have not been exposed to the model during training”. One point one should take extra care of is that many network topologies we study are very similar to many others, with shared motifs and links. These considerations extend beyond the scope of this paper.

      Other potential improvements or future work

      Comment 10: - The growth feedback examined in this paper comes from the effect of protein levels on the cell division rate (growth rate). However, the opposite effect can also occur; cell growth rates can affect the distribution of protein expression in cell populations. A good reference is Kheir Gouda et al., which is already on the list of references. These opposite effects should be described and discussed.

      We agree that growth feedback is inherently complex and has many biological effects, and in our paper, we are using a simplified model to study the dominant factor of growth feedback. We have added the following paragraph in the Discussion section, which involves the opposite effect mentioned in the comment.

      “In our paper, we consider dilution due to cell growth as the dominant factor of growth feedback. Here we compared the adaptive circuits under no-growth conditions and their ability to maintain their adaptive behaviors after dilution into a fresh medium, which mediated a significant dilution to the circuits. This is based on our previous work (Zhang et al. (2020)). However, growth feedback is inherently complex (Klumpp et al. (2009)). For instance, an increased growth rate can change protein synthesis rate (Hintsche and Klumpp (2013); Scott and Hwa (2023)), and cell growth rates can affect the distribution of protein expression in cell populations (Gouda et al. (2019)). In our paper, we concentrate on a simplified model with dilution, which we consider to have captured the dominant factor. The dynamic roles of the dilution and growth-affected production rate should be analogous, given that they both act as inhibitory factors arising from cell growth. Incorporating the impact of growth rate on protein synthesis into our model would offer a more comprehensive analysis, a task beyond the scope of this paper but presenting an intriguing opportunity for future research to address the complexities of growth feedback.”

      Comment11: - It may be worth mentioning that growth feedback can lead to persistence, see PMID:27010473.

      We have included this research as a citation.

      Comment 12: - While some other networks (two-node) are discussed, it would be worth doing this analysis for all one- and two-node networks, perhaps controlled by small molecules added externally. If not here, then as a future plan.

      We agree that this is an interesting idea for future studies.

      Comment 13: - The manuscript analyzes the deterministic dynamics of a set of gene networks. However, gene expression is always stochastic, and gene circuits have been designed to control stochastic gene expression. For example, gene expression distributions can be reshaped, or even new peaks can appear, which would be worth mentioning, PMID: 30341217. The effect of growth feedback on stochastic gene expression and future perspectives of systematically studying this should be discussed.

      We have added the following paragraph in the Discussion section to discuss the effects of noises and stochasticity. The research mentioned in the comment is also included.

      “Our study focuses on scenarios where random noises are ignored. Realistically, gene circuits are subjected to diverse types of noise, which can complicate their predictable behavior and design. These noises can originate externally from a noisy input signal I, or intrinsically, directly affecting the circuit components. Further, these noises can be classified based on various mechanisms that cause them (Colin et al. (2017); Sartori and Tu (2011)). And with different mechanisms, each type of noise can be characterized by different attributes such as frequency, amplitude, and noise color. These variances can lead to different impacts on the circuits, potentially necessitating unique mechanisms or designs for the attenuation of each category (Sartori and Tu (2011); Qiao et al. (2019)). Given the extensive complexity and the need for thorough investigation, these noise-related challenges are beyond the scope of this paper and require a series of future studies.”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this work, the authors present a cornucopia of data generated using deep mutational scanning (DMS) of variants in MET kinase, a protein target implicated in many different forms of cancer. The authors conducted a heroic amount of deep mutational scanning, using computational structural models to augment the interpretation of their DMS findings.

      Strengths:

      This powerful combination of computational models, experimental structures in the literature, dose-response curves, and DMS enables them to identify resistance and sensitizing mutations in the MET kinase domain, as well as consider inhibitors in the context of the clinically relevant exon-14 deletion. They then try to use the existing language model ESM1b augmented by an XGBoost regressor to identify key biophysical drivers of fitness. The authors provide an incredible study that has a treasure trove of data on a clinically relevant target that will appeal to many.

      We thank Reviewer 1 for their generous assessment of our manuscript!

      Weaknesses:

      However, the authors do not equally consider alternative possible mechanisms of resistance or sensitivity beyond the impact of mutation on binding, even though the measure used to discuss resistance and sensitivity is ultimately a resistance score derived from the increase or decrease of the presence of a variant during cell growth.

      For this resistance screen, Ba/F3 was a carefully chosen cellular selection system due to its addiction to exogenously provided IL-3, undetected expression of endogenous RTKs (including MET), and dependence on kinase transgenes to promote signaling and growth under IL-3 withdrawal. Together this allows for the readout of variants that alter kinase-driven proliferation without the caveat of bypass resistance. In our previous phenotypic screen (Estevam et al., 2024, eLife), we also carefully examined the impact of all possible MET kinase domain mutations both in the presence and absence of IL-3 withdrawal, but no inhibitors. There, we identified a small group of mutations that were associated with gain-of-function behavior located at conserved regulatory motifs outside of the catalytic site, yet these mutations were largely sensitive to inhibitors within this screen.

      Here, the majority of resistance mutations were located at or near the ATP-binding pocket, suggesting an impact on resistance through direct drug interactions. However, there was also a small population of distal mutations that met our statistical definitions of resistance. Within the crizotinib selection, sites such as T1293, L1272, T1261, amongst others, demonstrated resistance profiles but were located in C-lobe away from the catalytic site. While we did not experimentally validate these specific mutations, it is possible that non-direct drug binders instead promote resistance through allosteric or conformational mechanisms which preserve kinase activity and signaling. Indeed, our ML framework explicitly included conformational and stability effects as significant in improving predictions.

      We would be happy to further discuss any specific alternative resistance mechanisms Reviewer 1 has in mind! Thank you for highlighting this!

      There are also points of discussion and interpretation that rely heavily on docked models of kinase-inhibitor pairs without considering alternative binding modes or providing any validation of the docked pose. Lastly, the use of ESM1b is powerful but constrained heavily by the limited structural training data provided, which can lead to misleading interpretations without considering alternative conformations or poses.

      The majority of our interpretations are grounded in the X-ray structures of WT MET bound to the inhibitors studied (or close analogs). The use of docked models (note - to mutant structures predicted by UMol, not ESM, that can have conformational changes) is primarily in the ML part of the manuscript. Indeed, in our models, conformational and binding mode changes are taken into account as features (see Ligand RMSD, Residue RMSD). There are certainly improved methods (AF3 variants) emerging that might have even more power to model these changes, but they come with greater computational costs and are something we will be evaluating in the future.

      We added to the results section: “While our features can account for some changes in MET-mutant conformation and altered inhibitor binding pose, the prediction of these aspects can likely be improved with new methods.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript provides a comprehensive overview of potential resistance mutations within MET Receptor Tyrosine Kinase and defines how specific mutations affect different inhibitors and modes of target engagement. The goal is to identify inhibitor combinations with the lowest overlap in their sensitivity to resistant mutations and determine if certain resistance mutations/mechanisms are more prevalent for specific modes of ATP-binding site engagement. To achieve this, the authors measured the ability of ~6000 single mutants of MET's kinase domain (in the context of a cytosolic TPR fusion) to drive IL-3-independent proliferation (used as a proxy for activity) of Ba/F3 cells (deep mutational profiling) in the presence of 11 different inhibitors. The authors then used co-crystal and docked structures of inhibitor-bound MET complexes to define the mechanistic basis of resistance and applied a protein language model to develop a predictive model of inhibitor sensitivity/resistance.

      Strengths:

      The major strengths of this manuscript are the comprehensive nature of the study and the rigorous methods used to measure the sensitivity of ~6000 MET mutants in a pooled format. The dataset generated will be a valuable resource for researchers interested in understanding kinase inhibitor sensitivity and, more broadly, small molecule ligand/protein interactions. The structural analyses are systematic and comprehensive, providing interesting insights into resistance mechanisms. Furthermore, the use of machine learning to define inhibitor-specific fitness landscapes is a valuable addition to the narrative. Although the ESM1b protein language model is only moderately successful in identifying the underlying mechanistic basis of resistance, the authors' attempt to integrate systematic sequence/function datasets with machine learning serves as a foundation for future efforts.

      We thank Reviewer 2 for their thoughtful assessment of our manuscript!

      Weaknesses:

      The main limitation of this study is that the authors' efforts to define general mechanisms between inhibitor classes were only moderately successful due to the challenge of uncoupling inhibitor-specific interaction effects from more general mechanisms related to the mode of ATP-binding site engagement. However, this is a minor limitation that only minimally detracts from the impressive overall scope of the study.

      We agree. We have added to the discussion: “A full landscape of mutational effects can help to predict drug response and guide small molecule design to counteract acquired resistance. The ability to define molecular mechanisms towards that goal will likely require more purposefully chosen chemical inhibitors and combinatorial mutational libraries to be maximally informative.”

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In the manuscript 'Mapping kinase domain resistance mechanisms for the MET receptor tyrosine kinase via deep mutational scanning' by Estevam et al, deep mutational scanning is used to assess the impact of ~5,764 mutants in the MET kinase domain on the binding of 11 inhibitors. Analyses were divided by individual inhibitor and kinase inhibitor subtypes (I, II, I 1/2, and III). While a number of mutants were consistent with previous clinical reports, novel potential resistance mutants were also described. This study has implications for the development of combination therapies, namely which combination of inhibitors to avoid based on overlapping resistance mutant profiles. While one suggested pair of inhibitors with the least overlapping resistance mutation profiles was suggested, this manuscript presents a proof of concept toward a more systematic approach for improved selection of combination therapeutics. Furthermore, in a final part of this manuscript the data was used to train a machine learning model, the ESM-1b protein language model augmented with an XG Boost Regressor framework, and found that they could improve predictions of resistance mutations above the initial ESM-1b model.

      Strengths:

      Overall this paper is a tour-de-force of data collection and analysis to establish a more systematic approach for the design of combination therapies, especially in targeting MET and other kinases, a family of proteins significant to therapeutic intervention for a variety of diseases. The presentation of the work is mostly concise and clear with thousands of data points presented neatly and clearly. The discovery of novel resistance mutants for individual MET inhibitors, kinase inhibitor subtypes within the context of MET, and all resistance mutants across inhibitor subtypes for MET has clinical relevance. However, probably the most promising outcome of this paper is the proposal of the inhibitor combination of Crizotinib and Cabozantib as Type I and Type II inhibitors, respectively, with the least overlapping resistance mutation profiles and therefore potentially the most successful combination therapy for MET. While this specific combination is not necessarily the point, it illustrates a compelling systematic approach for deciding how to proceed in developing combination therapy schedules for kinases. In an insightful final section of this paper, the authors approach using their data to train a machine learning model, perhaps understanding that performing these experiments for every kinase for every inhibitor could be prohibitive to applying this method in practice.

      We thank Reviewer 3 for their assessment of our manuscript (we are very happy to have it described as a tour-de-force!)

      Weaknesses:

      This paper presents a clear set of experiments with a compelling justification. The content of the paper is overall of high quality. Below are mostly regarding clarifications in presentation.

      Two places could use more computational experiments and analysis, however. Both are presented as suggestions, but at least a discussion of these topics would improve the overall relevance of this work. In the first case it seems that while the analyses conducted on this dataset were chosen with care to be the most relevant to human health, further analyses of these results and their implications of our understanding of allosteric interactions and their effects on inhibitor binding would be a relevant addition. For example, for any given residue type found to be a resistance mutant are there consistent amino acid mutations to which a large or small or effect is found. For example is a mutation from alanine to phenylalanine always deleterious, though one can assume the exact location of a residue matters significantly. Some of this analysis is done in dividing resistance mutants by those that are near the inhibitor binding site and those that aren't, but more of these types of analyses could help the reader understand the large amount of data presented here. A mention at least of the existing literature in this area and the lack or presence of trends would be worthwhile. For example, is there any correlation with a simpler metric like the Grantham score to predict effects of mutations (in a way the ESM-1b model is a better version of this, so this is somewhat implicitly discussed).

      Indeed we experimented with including these types of features in the XGBoost scheme (particularly residue volume change and distance) to augment the predictive power of the ESM model - see Figure 8 - figure supplement 1; however, we didn’t find them as significant. Therefore, the signal is likely very small and/or incorporated into the baseline ESM model.

      Indeed, this discussion relates to the second point this manuscript could improve upon: the machine learning section. The main actionable item here is that this results section seems the least polished and could do a better job describing what was done. In the figure it looks like results for certain inhibitors were held out as test data - was this all mutants for a single inhibitor, or some other scheme? Overall I think the implications of this section could be fleshed out, potentially with more experiments.

      Figure 8A and the methods section contain a very detailed explanation of test data. We have thought about it and do not have any easy path to improve the description, which we reproduce here:

      “Experimental fitness scores of MET variants in the presence of DMSO and AMG458 were ignored in model training and testing since having just one set of data for a type I ½ inhibitor and DMSO leads to learning by simply memorizing the inhibitor type, without generalizability. The remaining dataset was split into training and test sets to further avoid overfitting (Figure 8A). The following data points were held out for testing - (a) all mutations in the presence of one type I (crizotinib) and one type II (glesatinib analog) inhibitor, (b) 20% of randomly chosen positions (columns) and (c) all mutations in two randomly selected amino acids (rows) (e.g. all mutations to Phe, Ser). After splitting the dataset into train and test sets, the train set was used for XGBoost hyperparameter tuning and cross-validation. For tuning the hyperparameters of each of the XGBoost models, we held out 20% of randomly sampled data points in the training set and used the remaining 80% data for Bayesian hyperparameter optimization of the models with Optuna (Akiba et al., 2019), with an objective to minimize the mean squared error between the fitness predictions on 20% held out split and the corresponding experimental fitness scores. The following hyperparameters were sampled and tuned: type of booster (booster - gbtree or dart), maximum tree depth (max_depth), number of trees (n_estimators), learning rate (eta), minimum leaf split loss (gamma), subsample ratio of columns when constructing each tree (colsample_bytree), L1 and L2 regularization terms (alpha and beta) and tree growth policy (grow_policy - depthwise or lossguide). After identifying the best combination of hyperparameters for each of the models, we performed 10-fold cross validation (with re-sampling) of the models on the full training set. The training set consists of data points corresponding to 230 positions and 18 amino acids. We split these into 10 parts such that each part corresponds to data from 23 positions and 2 amino acids. Then, at each of 10 iterations of cross-validation, models were trained on 9 of 10 parts (207 positions and 16 amino acids) and evaluated on the 1 held out part (23 positions and 2 amino acids). Through this protocol we ensure that we evaluate performance of the models with different subsets of positions and amino acids. The average Pearson correlation and mean squared error of the models from these 10 iterations were calculated and the best performing model out of 8192 models was chosen as the one with the highest cross-validation correlation. The final XGBoost models were obtained by training on the full training set and also used to obtain the fitness score predictions for the validation and test sets. These predictions were used to calculate the inhibitor-wise correlations shown in Figure 8B.“

      As mentioned in the 'Strengths' section, one of the appealing aspects of this paper is indeed its potential wide applicability across kinases -- could you use this ML model to predict resistance mutants for an entirely different kinase? This doesn't seem far-fetched, and would be an extremely compelling addition to this paper to prove the value of this approach.

      This is exactly where we want to go next! But as we see here, it is going to be hard and require more purposeful selection of chemicals and likely combinatorial mutations to be maximally informative (see also reviewer 2 response where we have added text)

      Another area in which this paper could improve its clarity is in the description of caveats of the assay. The exact math used to define resistance mutants and its dependence on the DMSO control is interesting, it is worth discussing where the failure modes of this procedure might be. Could it be that the resistance mutants identified in this assay would differ significantly from those found in patients? That results here are consistent with those seen in the clinic is promising, but discrepancies could remain.

      Thank you for pointing this out. The greatest trade-off of probing the intracellular MET kinase (juxtamembrane, kinase domain, c-tail) in the constitutively active TPR system is that while we gain cytoplasmic expression, constitutive oligomerization, and HGF-independent activation, other features like membrane-proximal effects are lost and translatability of some mutations in non-proliferative conditions may also be limited. Nevertheless, Ba/F3 allows IL-3 withdrawal to serve as an effective variant readout of transgenic kinase variant effects due to its undetectable expression of endogenous RTKs and addiction to exogenous interleukin-3 (IL-3).

      In our previous study, we were also interested in comparing the phenotypic results to available patient populations in cBioPortal. We observed that our DMS captured known oncogenic MET kinase variants, in addition to a population of gain-of-function variants within clinical residue positions that have not been clinically reported. Interestingly, the population of possible novel gain-of-function mutant codons were more distant in genetic space (2-3 Hamming distance) from wild type than the clinically reported variant codon (1-2 Hamming distance).

      For this inhibitor screen, we also carefully compared previously reported and validated resistance mutations across referenced publications to that of our inhibitor screen, and observed large agreement as noted in-text. While discrepancies could definitely remain, there is precedence for consistency.

      Furthermore a more in depth discussion of the MetdelEx14 results is warranted. For example, why is the DMSO signature in Figure 1 - supplement 4 so different from that of Figure 1?

      In our previous study (Estevam et al., 2024), we more directly compared MET and METΔExon14, and while observed several differences, especially at conserved regulatory motifs, the TPR expression system did not provide a robust differential. Therefore, we hypothesize that a membrane-bound context is likely necessary to obtain a differential that captures juxtamembrane regulatory effects for these two isoforms. For that reason, we did not place heavy emphasis on the differences between MET and METΔExon14 in this study. Nevertheless, we performed parallel analysis of the METΔExon14 inhibitor DMS and provided all source and analyzed data in our GitHub repository (https://github.com/fraser-lab/MET_kinase_Inhibitor_DMS).

      In our analysis of resistance, we used Rosace to score and compare DMSO and inhibitor landscapes. We present the full distribution of raw scores in Figure 1 for each condition. However, to visually highlight resistance mutations as a heatmap, we subtracted the scores of each variant in each inhibitor condition from the raw DMSO score, making the heatmaps in Figure 1 - supplement 4 appear more “blue.”

      And finally, there is a lot of emphasis put on the unexpected results of this assay for the tivantinib "type III" inhibitor - could this in fact be because the molecule "is highly selective for the inactive or unphosphorylated form of c-Met" according to Eathiraj et al JBC 2011?

      The work presented by Eathiraj et al JBC 2011 is a key study we reference and is foundational to tivantinib. While the point brought up about tivantinib’s selective preference for an inactive conformation is valid, this is also true for type II kinase inhibitors. In our study, regardless of inhibitor conformational preference, tivantinib was the only one with a nearly identical landscape to DMSO and exhibited selection even in the absence of Ba/F3 MET-addiction (Figure 1E). This result is in closer agreement with MET agnostic behavior reported by Basilico et al., 2013 and Katayama et al., 2013.

      While this paper is crisply written with beautiful figures, the complexity of the data warrants a bit more clarity in how the results are visualized. Namely, clearly highlighting mutants that have previously reported and those identified by this study across all figures could help significantly in understanding the more novel findings of the work.

      To better compare and contrast novel mutation identified in this study to others, we compiled a list of reported resistance mutations from recent clinical and experimental studies (Pecci et al 2024; Yao et al., 2023; Bahcall et al., 2022; Recondo et al., 2020; Rotow et al ., 2020; Fujino et al., 2019), since a direct database with resistance annotations does not exist for MET, to the best of our knowledge. In total, this amounted to 31 annotated resistance mutations across crizotinib, capmatinib, tepotinib, savolitinib, cabozantinib, merestinib, and glesatinib, which we have now tabulated in a new figure (Figure 4) and commentary in the main text:

      To assess the agreement between our DMS and previously annotated resistance mutations, we compiled a list of reported resistance mutations from recent clinical and experimental studies (Pecci et al 2024; Yao et al., 2023; Bahcall et al., 2022; Recondo et al., 2020; Rotow et al ., 2020; Fujino et al., 2019) (Figure 4A,B). Overall, previously discovered mutations are strongly shifted to a GOF distribution for the drugs where resistance is reported from treatment or experiment; in contrast, the distribution is centered around neutral for those sites for other drugs not reported in the literature (Figure 4C). However, even in cases such as L1195V, we observe GOF DMS scores indicative of resistance to previously reported inhibitors. Given this overall strong concordance with prior literature and clinical results, we can also provide hypotheses to clarify the role of mutations that are observed in combination with others. For example, H1094Y is a reported driver mutation that has been linked to resistance in METΔEx14 for glesatinib with either the secondary L1195V mutation or in isolation (Recodo et al., 2020). However, in our assay H1094Y demonstrated slight sensitivity to gelesatinib, suggesting that either resistance is linked to the exon14 deletion isoform, the L1195V mutation, or a cellular factor not modeled well by the BaF3 system.

      Finally, the potential impacts and follow-ups of this excellent study could be communicated better - it is recommended that they advertise better this paper as a resource for the community both as a dataset and as a proof of concept. In this realm I would encourage the authors to emphasize the multiple potential uses of this dataset by others to provide answers and insights on a variety of problems.

      Please see below

      Related to this, the decision to include the MetdelEx14 results, but not discuss them at all is interesting, do the authors expect future analyses to lead to useful insights? Is it surprising that trends are broadly the same to the data discussed?

      Our previous paper suggests that Ba/F3 isn’t a great model for measuring the differences between MET and METΔEx14, so we haven’t emphasized other than to point to our previous paper. We include the full analysis here nonetheless as a resource. Potentially where the greatest differences between resistance mutant behaviors would be observed is in the full-length, membrane-bound MET and METΔEx14 receptor isoforms. While outside of the scope of this study, there is great potential to use the resistance mutations identified in this study as a filtered group to test and map differential inhibitor sensitivities between receptor isoforms.

      And finally it could be valuable to have a small addition of introspection from the authors on how this approach could be altered and/or improved in the future to facilitate the general application of this approach for combination therapies for other targets.

      See also reviewer 2 response where we have added text.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Major points of revision:

      (1) It seems like much of the structural interpretation of the inhibitor binding mode, outside of crizotinib binding, appears to come from docked models of the inhibitor to the MET kinase domain. Given the potential variability of the docked structure to the kinase domain, it would be useful for the authors to consider alternative possible binding modes that their docking pipeline may have suggested. It could also be useful to provide some degree of validation or contextualization of their docking models.

      All individual figures are very carefully inspected based on either existing crystal structures of the inhibitor or closely related inhibitors (ATP, 3DKC; crizotinib, 2WGJ; tepotinib, 4R1V; tivantinib, 3RHK; AMG-458, 5T3Q; NVP-BVU972, 3QTI; merestinib, 4EEV; savolitinib, 6SDE). In total, four structural interpretations were the result of docking onto reference experimental structures (capmatinib, cabozantinib, glumetinib, glesatinib). As we wrote above, different conformations and binding modes are possible in predicted mutant structures (as we did here at scale) and included in the ML analysis already.

      (2) In the first section, the authors classify an inhibitor as Type Ia on docking models, but mention the conflicting literature describing it as type Ib - it would be helpful to provide a contextualization of why this distinction between Ia and Ib matters, and what difference it might make. It would also be useful to know if their docking score only suggested poses compatible with Ia or if other poses were provided as well. Validation using other method might be beneficial, especially since they acknowledge the conflicting literature for classification. Or at least recontextualization that more evidence would be needed.

      Kinase inhibitors have several canonical structural definitions we use to base the classifications in this study. Specifically, type I inhibitors are classified in MET by interactions with Y1230, D1228, K1110 in addition to its conformation in the ATP-binding site. Type I inhibitors are further subdivided into type 1a in MET if it leverages interactions with the solvent front and residue G1163. In prior literature referenced, tepotinib was classified as type 1b, which would imply it does not have solvent front interactions, like savolitinib (PDB 6SDE) or NVP-BVU972 (PDB 3QTI). However, in the tepotinib experimental structure (PDB 4R1V), we observed a greater structural resemblance to other type 1a inhibitors opposed to type 1b (Figure 1 - figure supplement 1b).

      (3) The measure used to discuss resistance and sensitivity is ultimately a resistance score derived from the increase or decrease of the presence of a variant during cell growth. This is not a measure of direct binding. It would be helpful if the authors discussed alternative mechanisms through which these variants may impact resistance and/or sensitivity, such as stability, protonation effects, or kinase activity. The score itself may be convolving over all these potential mechanisms to drive GOF and LOF observed behavior.

      See the response to the public review. Indeed, our ML framework explicitly included conformational and stability effects as significant in improving predictions.

      (4) While it is promising to try and improve the predictive properties of ESM1b, it is not exactly clear why the authors considered their structural data of 11 inhibitors a sufficient dataset with which to augment the model. It would be useful for the authors to provide some additional context for why they wished to augment ESM1b in particular with their dataset, and provide any metrics indicating that their training data of 11 inhibitors provided an adequate statistical sample.

      We don’t understand what this means. Sorry!

      (5) The authors use ESM-1b to predict the fitness impact of each mutation and augment it using protein structural data of drug-target interactions. However, using an XGBoost regressor on a single set of 11 kinase-inhibitor interaction pairs is an incredibly sparse dataset to train upon. It would be useful for the authors to consider the limitations of their model, as well as its extensibility in the context of alternate binding poses, alternate conformations, or changes in protonation states of ligand or inhibitor.

      On the contrary - this is 11 chemicals across 3000 mutations. We have discussed alternative interpretations above.

      Minor points:

      (1) It would also be useful for the authors to provide more context around their choice of regressor. XGBoost is a powerful regressor but can easily overfit high dimensional data when paired with language models such as ESM-1b. This would be particularly useful since some of the features to train on were also generated using existing models such as ThermoMPNN.

      Yes - we are quite concerned about overfitting and have tried to assess overfitting by careful design of test and validation sets.

      (2) The authors also mention excluding their DMSO and AMG458 scores in the model training and testing due to overfitting issues - it would be useful to have an SI figure pointing to this data.

      No - we exclude the DMSO because that is the reference (baseline) and AMG because it has a different binding mode. This isn’t related to overfitting.

      (3) The authors mention in their docking pipeline that 5 binding modes were used for each ligand docking, but it appears that only one binding mode is considered in the main figures. It would be useful for the authors to provide additional details about what were the other binding modes used for, how different were each binding mode, and how was the "primary" mode selected (and how much better was its score than the others).

      The reviewer misinterprets the difference between poses shown in figures, based on mostly crystal structures or carefully selected templates, and the use of docked models in feature engineering for the ML part of the study. Where existing crystal structures do not exist, we performed docking for capmatinib, cabozantinib, glumetinib, glesatinib onto reference structures bound to type I (2WGJ) and type II (4EEV) inhibitors. We selected one representative binding mode based on the reference inhibitor, and while not exact, at a minimum these models provide a basis for structural interpretation.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      My main suggestion is for the authors to add a few sentences (in non-technical language) to the results section, specifically before the results shown in Figure 3, defining gain-of-function, loss-of-function, resistance, and sensitivity. While these definitions are present in the materials and methods section, explicitly discussing them prior to the relevant results would significantly improve the overall readability of the manuscript.

      We defined “gain-of-function” and “loss-of-function” mutations as those with fitness scores statistically greater or lower than wild-type. Within the DMSO condition, gain-of-function and loss-of -function labels describe mutational perturbation to protein function, whereas within inhibitor conditions, the labels describe the difference in fitness introduced by an inhibitor.

      We have also clarified these definitions where the terms are first introduced: “As expected, the DMSO control population displayed a bimodal distribution with mutations exhibiting wild-type fitness centered around 0, with a wider distribution of mutations that exhibited loss- or gain-of-function effects, as defined by fitness scores with statistically significant lower or greater scores than wild-type, respectively.”

      Figure 7D. Please add a bit more detail to the legend on how fold change (y-axis) was calculated.

      Here, fold change represents the number of viable cells at each inhibitor concentration relative to the TKI control, measured with the CellTiter-Glo® Luminescent Cell Viability Assay (Promega) as an end point readout. We have updated the legend of Figure 7D with calculation details: “Dose-response for each inhibitor concentration is represented as the fraction of viable cells relative to the TKI free control.”

      I must admit, I did not understand what "Specific inhibitor fitness landscapes also aid in identifying mutations with potential drug sensitivity, such as R1086 and C1091 in the MET P-loop" means. These are positions where most mutations lead to greater sensitivity to crizotinib. Is the idea that there are potentially clinically-relevant MET mutations that can be targeted over wild type with crizotinib?

      Thank you for highlighting this! The P-loop (phosphate-binding loop) is a glycine-rich structural motif conserved in kinase domains. This motif is located in the N-lobe, where its primary role is to gate ATP entry into the active site and stabilize the phosphate groups of ATP when bound. Therefore, the P-loop is a common target region for ATP-competitive inhibitor design, but also a site where resistance can emerge (Roumiantsev et al., 2002). The idea we’d like to convey is that identifying residues that offer the potential for drug stabilization with the added benefit of having lower risk resistance, is an attractive consideration for novel inhibitor design.

      We have added to the text: “Individual inhibitor resistance landscapes also aid in identifying target residues for novel drug design by providing insights into mutability and known resistance cases. This enables the selection of vectors for chemical elaboration with potential lower risk of resistance development. Sites with mutational profiles such as R1086 and C1091, located in the common drug target P-loop of MET, could be likely candidates for crizotinib.”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Suggested Improvements to the Figures:

      a)  Figure 4A - T1261 seems to be mislabeled

      b)  In Figure 3A it's suggested to highlight mutants determined to be resistance mutants by this scheme.

      c)  In Figure 3D it would be informative to highlight which of these resistance mutants have already been previously reported and which are novel to this study

      d)  Throughout figures 3A, 3D, and 4G the graphical choices on how to highlight synonymous mutations and mutations not performed in the assay needs improvement.

      The Green vs Grey 'TRUE' vs 'FALSE' boxes are confusing. Just a green box indicating synonymous mutations would be sufficient. Additionally these green boxes are hard to see, and often edges of this green box are currently missing making it even more difficult to see and interpret.

      * In Figure 4A mutants do not seem to be indicated by a line or plus sign, but this is not explained in the legend or the caption. Please add.

      * In 3D and 4G it is not clear if the mutants not performed are indicated at all - perhaps they are indicated in white, making them indistinguishable from scores with 0. Please clarify.

      T1261 and G1242 are now correctly labeled.

      In text we have also highlighted reported resistance mutations for crizotinib, which are inclusive of clinical reports and in vitro characterization: “These sites, and many of the individual mutations, have been noted in prior reports, such as: D1228N/H/V/Y, Y1230C/H/N/S, G1163R.”

      We have adjusted the heatmaps to improve visual clarity. Mutations with score 0 are white, as indicated by the scale bar, and mutations uncaptured by the screen are now in light yellow. The green outline distinguishing WT synonymous mutations have also been adjusted so edges are no longer cut off. In our representations, we only distinguished mutations by the score color scale bar and WT outline. What looked like a “plus” or “line” in the original figure was only the heatmap background, which now should be resolved in the updated figure and legends for Figure 3 and Figure 4.

      (2) Some Minor Suggested Improvements to the Text:

      a)  The abbreviation CBL for 'CBL docking site' is used without being defined.

      b)  Figure 3G is referenced, but it does not exist.

      c)  In the sentence 'Beyond these well characterized sites, regions with sensitivity occurred throughout the kinase, primarily in loop-regions which have the greatest mutational tolerance in DMSO, but do not provide a growth advantage in the presence of an inhibitor (Figure 1 - Figure Supplement 1; Figure 1 - Figure Supplement 2).'. It is not clear why these supplemental figures are being referenced.

      d)  In the supplement section 'Enrich2 Scoring' has what seem like placeholders for citations in [brackets]

      Cbl is a E3 ubiquitin ligase that plays a role in MET regulation through engagement with exon 14, specifically at Y1003 when phosphorylated. This mode of regulation was more highlighted in our previous study. However, since Cbl was only mentioned briefly in this study, we have removed reference to it to simplify the text.

      In addition, we have removed the figure 3G reference and corrected the in-text range. We have also removed references to figure supplements where unnecessary and edited the “Enrich2 scoring” method section to now reference missing citations.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary: 

      In organisms with open mitosis, nuclear envelope breakdown at mitotic entry and re‐assembly of the nuclear envelope at the end of mitosis are important, highly regulated processes. One key regulator of nuclear envelope re‐assembly is the BAF (Barrier‐to‐Autointegration) protein, which contributes to cross‐linking of chromosomes to the nuclear envelope. Crucially, BAF has to be in a dephosphorylated form to carry out this function, and PP2A has been shown to be the phosphatase that dephosphorylates BAF. The Ankle2/LEM4 protein has previously been identified as an important regulator of PP2A in the dephosphorylation of BAF but its precise function is not fully understood, and Li and colleagues set out to investigate the function of Ankle2/LEM4 in both Drosophila flies and Drosophila cell lines.

      Strengths: 

      The authors use a combination of biochemical and imaging techniques to understand the biology of Ankle2/LEM4. On the whole, the experiments are well conducted and the results look convincing. A particular strength of this manuscript is that the authors are able to study both cellular phenotypes and organismal effects of their mutants by studying both Drosophila D‐mel cells and whole flies.

      The work presented in this manuscript significantly enhances our understanding of how Ankle2/LEM4 supports BAF dephosphorylation at the end of mitosis. Particularly interesting is the finding that Ankle2/LEM4 appears to be a bona fide PP2A regulatory protein in Drosophila, as well as the localisation of Ankle2/LEM4 and how this is influenced by the interaction between Ankle2 and the ER protein Vap33. It would be interesting to see, though, whether these insights are conserved in mammalian cells, e.g. does mammalian Vap33 also interact with LEM4? Is LEM4 also a part of the PP2A holoenzyme complex in mammalian cells? 

      We feel that conducting experiments to test the level of conservation of our findings in mammalian cells is outside the scope of our study, and we will leave it for other labs to investigate.

      Weaknesses: 

      This work is certainly impactful but more discussion and comparison of the Drosophila versus mammalian cell system would be helpful. Also, to attract the largest possible readership, the Ankle2 protein should be referred to as Ankle2/LEM4 throughout the paper to make it clear that this is the same molecule. 

      We have reinforced our presentation and discussion of similarities and differences between Ankle2 from Drosophila vs humans where relevant throughout the Introduction and Discussion sections. Additionally, we have added the mention that Ankle2 is also called LEM4 in humans in the Abstract and Introduction. However, when referring to Drosophila Ankle2, we do not use LEM4 because it is not listed as an alternate name for this gene/protein in FlyBase.

      A schematic model at the end of the final figure would be very useful to summarise the findings.

      We have already provided a schematic model in Figure S3, where we think it is better placed.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      The authors first identify Ankle2 as a regulatory subunit and direct interactor of PP2A, showing they interact both in vitro and in vivo to promote BAF dephosphorylation. The Ankyrin domain of Ankle2 is important for the interaction with PP2A. They then show Ankle2 also interacts with the ER protein Vap33 through FFAT motifs and they particularly co‐localize during mitosis. The recruitment of Ankle2 to Vap33 is essential to ER and nuclear envelop membrane in telophase while earlier in mitosis, it relies on the C terminus but not the FFAT motifs for recruitments to the nuclear membrane and spindle envelop in early mitosis. The molecular determinants and receptors are currently not known. The authors check the function of the PP2A recruitment to Ankle2/Vap33 in the context of embryos and show this recruitment pathway is functionally important. While the Ankle2/Vap33 interaction is dispensable in adult flies ‐looking at wing development, the PP2A/Ankle2 interaction is essential for correct wing and fly development. Overall, this is a very complete paper that reveals the molecular mechanism of PP2A recruitment to Ankle2 and studies both the cellular and the physiological effect of this interaction in the context of fly development.

      Strengths: 

      The paper is well written and the narrative is well‐developed. The figures are of high quality, wellcontrolled, clearly labelled, and easy to understand. They support the claims made by the authors. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The study would benefit from being discussed in the context of what is already known on Ankle2 biology in C.elegans and human cells. It is important to highlight the structures shown in the paper are alphafold models, rather than validated structures. 

      We have enhanced our presentation of what is known about LEM‐4L/Ankle2 in C. elegans and humans in the Introduction, and further developed comparisons of our findings regarding Drosophila Ankle2 with these orthologs in the Results and Discussion sections. We have also specified in all sections and figure legends that the structures shown are AlphaFold3 models.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      The authors were interested in how Ankle2 regulates nuclear envelope reformation after cell division. Other published manuscripts, including those from the authors, show without a doubt that Ankle2 plays a role in this critical process. However, the mechanism by which Ankle2 functions was unclear. Previous work using worms and humans (Asencio et al., 2012) established that human ANKLE2 could bind endogenous PP2A subunits. The binding was direct and was mediated through a region before and including the first ankyrin repeat in human ANKLE2. In addition to its interaction with PP2A, Asencio et al., 2012 also show that ANKLE2 regulates VRK1 kinase activity. Together PP2A and VRK1 regulate BAF phosphorylation for proper nuclear envelope reformation. Here, the authors provide more evidence for interaction with PP2A by also mapping the domain of interaction to the ankyrin repeat in Drosophila. In addition, the ankyrin repeat is essential for nuclear envelope reformation after division. They show that Ankle2 can bind in a PP2A complex without other known regulatory subunits of PP2A. The authors also identify a novel interaction with ER protein Vap33, but functional relevance for this interaction in nuclear envelope reformation is not provided in the manuscript, which the authors explicitly state. This manuscript does not comment on the activity of Ballchen/VRK1 in relation to Ankle2 loss and BAF phosphorylation or nuclear envelope reformation, even though links were previously shown by multiple studies (Asencio et al., Link et al., Apridita Sebastian et al.,). Nuclear envelope defects were rescued by the reduction of VRK1 in two of these manuscripts. It is possible that BAF phosphorylation phenotypes can be contributed by both PP2A inactivity and VRK1 overactivity due to the loss of Ankle2.

      Strengths: 

      This manuscript is a useful finding linking Ankle2 function during nuclear envelope reformation to the PP2A complex. The authors present solid data showing that Ankle2 can form a complex with PP2A‐29B and Mts and generate a phosphoproteomic resource that is fundamentally important to understanding Ankle2 biology. 

      Weaknesses: 

      However, the main findings/conclusions about subcellular localization might be incomplete since they are drawn from overexpression experiments. In addition, throughout the text, some conclusions are overstated or are not supported by data. 

      It is true that all experiments studying subcellular localization were done with tagged proteins overexpressed in flies and cell culture. Nevertheless, we show that Ankle2‐GFP is functional since it rescues phenotypes resulting from the loss of endogenous Ankle2 in both flies and cultured cells. The antibodies we generated against Ankle2 were unable to reliably detect the endogenous protein by immunofluorescence. We have now stated this caveat in our manuscript. Regarding the validity of our conclusions in relation to our data, we address each point raised by the reviewer under the Recommendations for the authors. In some cases, we have adjusted our conclusions and in other cases, we have provided additional clarification or justification. 

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      There are a few experimental issues that should be addressed, specific comments are listed below: 

      (1) Figure 1F: In this experiment, the authors immunoprecipitate GFP‐PP2A‐29B or PP2A‐B29BGFP and Western blot for Ankle2 and Mts to demonstrate that both are co‐immunoprecipitated. To demonstrate that these interactions are specific, the authors should also blot for a protein that is expected to definitely NOT co‐immunoprecipitate with PP2A‐B29; e.g. tubulin. 

      Our conclusion that GFP‐PP2A‐29B and PP2A‐29B‐GFP specifically interact with Ankle2 and Mts is also based on mass spectrometry analysis of the purification products from embryos and cells in culture, comparing with products of purification of GFP alone (Fig 1E‐F, S1C‐D and Tables S2, S3). The lists of identified proteins reveal that most proteins (including tubulins) are not enriched with GFP‐PP2A‐29B or PP2A‐29B‐GFP like Ankle2 and Mts are.

      (2) Figure 2A: The colour coding of the dots is not explained in the figure legend. 

      We have now added the explanation.

      (3) Figure 2B: The competition experiment is a good idea. Do the authors get the same results when they conduct the experiment the other way round, i.e. keep the concentration of Tws the same but increase the concentration of Ankle2? 

      We have tried this reverse experiment but saw little effect. The failure to observe displacement of Tws by Ankle2 in this context could be due to a higher affinity of Tws than Ankle2 in the PP2A complex, or to lower expression levels achieved for Ankle2 (a larger protein) relative to Tws.

      (4) Figure 5D: The hyperphosphorylation of BAF is very difficult to see, and it is impossible to tell whether the hyperphosphorylation has been rescued or not by the different Ankle2 constructs. Can the phosphorylated and the hyperphosphorylated bands be separated better? This panel needs significant improvements to support the claims in the text.

      In our opinion, the hyperphosphorylated (upper band) and unphosphorylated (lower band) forms of BAF are well resolved and readily distinguishable. The fainter band in the middle could correspond to a partially phosphorylated form of BAF but we do not venture to speculate on its precise identity nor do we need it to draw our conclusions. The important information from this blot is that the level of unphosphorylated BAF after Ankle2 RNAi increases when Ankle2WT‐GFP and Ankle2Fm+FL1‐GFP are expressed but not when Flag‐GFP or Ankle2ANK‐GFP are expressed. In these experiments, the rescue of unphosphorylated BAF is incomplete because not all cells express the GFP‐tagged protein in our non‐clonal stable cell lines.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The alphafold models need to be labelled as such better on the figures, to distinguish them from X‐ray crystallography structures. Alphafold will always propose a solution but it is not necessarily correct. 

      We have added the note “MODEL” directly in Figures 2C, 2D, 4F and S3B, in addition to the information already provided in the text and figure legends specifying that these are models generated by AlphaFold3.

      (2) Figure 4 F. Annotate the Ankle2 FL1 peptide. 

      We have indicated the amino acid residues in the figure.

      (3) Problems with the statistical tests. T‐tests cannot be used for comparing multiple groups, as this favors error propagation. 

      All of our t‐tests compare only two groups at a time, as indicated. In this regard, our labeling in Fig 5C may have been misleading. We have now changed it.

      (4) Close‐ups of ring canal in Figure S2. In Figure S2, there seem to be lots of GFP‐Ankle2 vesicles in the cytoplasm of the oocyte. 

      We agree that the image showing Ankle2‐GFP alone in the RNAi Vap33 condition suggested a cytoplasmic granular localization of unknown nature. However, upon examination, we realized that this image did not correspond to the same z‐step as the matching merged image (which also

      included DNA staining). We have now replaced the image with the correct one.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      Be more accurate about what conclusions can be made from reported data, particularly from overexpression and deletion studies. 

      (1) The domain analysis for physical interaction is quite thorough. However, localization information is taken from overexpressed constructs. While these data show what could happen, the authors are not using endogenous levels of Ankle2 in cells or tissues that are known to require Ankle2. As a result, it is difficult to determine whether localization results are biologically meaningful. 

      We have added the following text at the end of the third Results section:

      “We were unable to examine the localization of endogenous Ankle2 because the antibodies that we generated gave inconclusive results in immunofluorescence. For the remainder of our study, we relied on the overexpression of Ankle2‐GFP, which may not perfectly reflect the localization and function of endogenous Ankle2. However, Ankle2‐GFP is functional as it can rescue phenotypes observed when endogenous Ankle2 is depleted (see below).”

      (2) The data showing that Ankle2 is a regulator unit of the PP2A complex also relies on in vitro binding assays in an over‐expression context. Data certainly show Ankle2 can bind proteins in the PP2A complex when overexpressed. However, the authors could not isolate enough of the complex from the animal to test function, so Ankle2 acting as a regulatory subunit isn't functionally shown. There are other possibilities, such as Ankle2 acts as a scaffold for complex assembly.  

      The competition experiments shown in Fig 2 are based on complexes assembling in cells and are not in vitro binding assays. We show 4 lines of evidence supporting the idea that Ankle2 functions as a regulatory subunit of PP2A: 1) Ankle2 interacts with the structural (PP2A‐29B) and catalytic (Mts) subunits of PP2A without any known regulatory subunit of PP2A. 2) Depletion of Ankle2 leads to the hyperphosphorylation of the known PP2A substrate BAF. 3) The PP2A regulatory subunit Tws/B55 competes with Ankle2 for formation of a complex with PP2A. 4) AlphaFold3 predicts that Ankle2 engages in a complex with PP2A at a position similar to that of known regulatory subunits of PP2A including Tws/B55, and consistent with their mutually exclusive presence in PP2A complexes. If Ankle2 acted as a scaffold for the formation of a PP2A complex containing other regulatory subunits, we would expect to detect Ankle2 and another regulatory subunit in the same complex.

      (3) Throughout the text, some conclusions are overstated or are not supported by data. Examples are below: 

      a. Page 1: "we show for the first time that Ankle2 is a regulatory subunit of PP2A"  The authors show binding and changes in BAF phosphorylation levels, but changes in PP2A activity with modulation of Ankle2 weren't shown. 

      We have replaced this phrase with this one:

      “…we provide several lines of evidence that suggest that Ankle2 is a regulatory subunit of PP2A…”

      b. Page 3: "The requirement for Ankle2 in the development of the central nervous system was initially discovered through its targeting by the microcephaly‐causing Zika virus (Shah et al.,

      2018)." 

      This is not the first paper showing ANKLE2 plays a role in the development of the CNS. Yamamoto et al., 2014 identified mutants in Ankle2 with defects in CNS development in flies and humans, establishing it as a human microcephaly‐causing gene. 

      We are sorry for this oversight. We have now cited this important work.

      c. Page 6: "Moreover, BAF appears to be the only obligatory substrate of Ankle2‐dependent dephosphorylation for cell proliferation as lowering the dose of the BAF kinase NHK‐1/Ballchen rescues wing development defects caused by the partial depletion of Ankle2 (Li et al., 2024)."  It is unclear why the authors conclude this since Ballchen/VRK1 can phosphorylate many things besides BAF. 

      Although the conclusion cannot be drawn categorically, it seems to be by far the most likely scenario. However, we agree that in principle, other mechanisms could also account for these genetic observations, such as the dephosphorylation of another, still unidentified obligatory substrate of PP2A‐Ankle2 that would also be phosphorylated by NHK‐1/Ballchen. However, we have also shown that expression of an unphosphorylatable mutant form of BAF rescues phenotypes observed upon loss of Ankle2 function (Li et al, 2024). We have changed our sentence as follows:

      "Moreover, BAF could be the only obligatory substrate of Ankle2‐dependent dephosphorylation for cell proliferation as lowering the dose of the BAF kinase NHK‐1/Ballchen or expression of an unphosphorylatable mutant form of BAF rescues wing development defects caused by the partial depletion of Ankle2 (Li et al., 2024).”

      d. Page 10: "These results suggest that a Vap33‐Ankle2‐PP2A complex can mediate the recruitment of a pool of PP2A at the NE."

      There is insufficient evidence to indicate that Vap33‐Ankle2‐PP2A exists in a stable state in the cell and that this complex mediates recruitment of PP2A at the NE. The images do not include Vap33, showing no evidence it is present when PP2A is at the NE and the complex could only be detected with overexpression. 

      We agree with this caveat and recognize the need to be cautious when proposing our model. In this regard, we feel that our wording is reasonable and appropriate, using “suggest” rather than “prove”, “show” or “indicate”.

      e. Page 11: These results suggest that the interaction of Ankle2 with PP2A is essential for its function in BAF dephosphorylation and nuclear reassembly." Page 14: "these results indicate that the interaction of Ankle2 with PP2A is essential during embryo". Page 14: "These results indicate that the interaction of Ankle2 with PP2A but not with Vap33 is essential for its function during cell proliferation in imaginal wing disc development." 

      These experiments show that the ankyrin repeat in Ankle2 is necessary for these processes. It does not say PP2A interaction with Ankle2 is necessary because other things could bind the domain. 

      We have revised the segments of the text mentioned, taking the reviewer’s legitimate concerns into consideration. We have also added the following sentence to the Discussion:

      “However, it remains formally possible that the deletion of Ankyrin repeats used to disrupt the Ankle2‐PP2A interaction abrogated another, unknown aspect of Ankle2 function.”

      f. Page 12: "Overall, we conclude that in addition to its N‐terminal PP2A‐interacting Ankyrin domain, Ankle2 requires the integrity of its C‐terminal portion for its essential function in nuclear reassembly." 

      No data was shown for differences in nuclear reassembly, only the ability for ANKLE2 truncation mutants to localize to the nuclear envelope. It isn't clear whether the nuclear envelope reformation is normal in Figure S6 which the authors refer to. Lamin staining could help determine and conclude the C‐terminal region is important for nuclear envelope reformation. 

      Our conclusion is drawn from the results shown in Figures S4 and S5 (described in the same section), where a rescue assay in cells was performed to assess the functionality of different variants of Ankle2‐GFP when endogenous Ankle2 was depleted. In this assay, Lamin and DNA staining were used to examine nuclear reassembly (as in Figure 5). Figure S6 shows the localizations of the different variants of Ankle2‐GFP, but endogenous Ankle2 is not depleted in these cells.

      g. Page 13: "We conclude that the ability of Ankle2 to interact with PP2A is required for the timely recruitment of BAF at reassembling nuclei and ensuing NE reassembly."

      It's possible the Ankyrin domain in ANKLE2 is interacting with proteins other than PP2A to recruit BAF at reassembling nuclei, especially since ANKLE2 is found to regulate VRK1 (Link 2019) which has been found to phosphorylate BAF during the cell cycle (Molitor 2014). Additionally, the images in Figure 6A appear to show fully reassembled nuclear envelopes in all mutants by 180s. 

      This point relates to point e, raised above by this reviewer. We have re‐written the sentence as follows:

      “We conclude that the Ankyrin domain, required for the ability of Ankle2 to interact with PP2A, is necessary for the timely recruitment of BAF at reassembling nuclei and ensuing NE reassembly.”

      Please note that in this paragraph, we discuss a delay in RFP‐BAF recruitment, rather than the complete elimination of this recruitment. 

      h. Page 16: "Our unbiased phosphoproteomic analysis confirmed that BAF dephosphorylation depends on Ankle2, despite the absence of a detectable interaction between Drosophila Ankle2 and BAF, which may be due to the lack of a LEM domain in the former (Fishburn et al., 2024). Moreover, while Ankle2 was shown to bind and inhibit the BAF counteracting kinase VRK1 in humans (Asencio et al., 2012), we detected no interaction between Ankle2 and NHK‐1/Ballchen (VRK1 ortholog) in Drosophila. This suggests that the loss of Ankle2 causes BAF hyperphosphorylation by preventing PP2A‐dependent dephosphorylation rather than by preventing inhibition of NHK‐1"

      There could be transient binding between Ankle2 and Ballchen/VRK1/NHK‐1 or activity can be indirect, but that doesn't mean there is not a contribution of BAF phosphorylation by Ballchen/VRK1/NHK‐1. Genetic evidence from three model systems, including Drosophila, indicates there is a strong genetic interaction between Ankle2 and Ballchen/VRK1/NHK‐1 that includes rescue of lethality.

      We agree and we have re‐written in this way:

      “While a putative interaction between Ankle2 and NHK‐1 in Drosophila could occur transiently, thereby escaping detection, the simplest interpretation of our results is that the loss of Ankle2 causes BAF hyperphosphorylation by preventing PP2A‐dependent dephosphorylation rather than by preventing inhibition of NHK‐1.”

      We do not question the fact that Ballchen/VRK1/NHK‐1 phosphorylates BAF and genetically interacts with Ankle2. The antagonistic relationship between Ballchen/VRK1/NHK‐1 and Ankle2 observed genetically can be explained by the fact that the kinase phosphorylates BAF while PP2AAnkle2 dephosphorylates it, without the need to invoke an additional inhibition of the kinase by Ankle2.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The hypothesis is based on the idea that inversions capture genetic variants that have antagonistic effects on male sexual success (via some display traits) and survival of females (or both sexes) until reproduction. Furthermore, a sufficiently skewed distribution of male sexual success will tend to generate synergistic epistasis for male fitness even if the individual loci contribute to sexually selected traits in an additive way. This should favor inversions that keep these male-beneficial alleles at different loci together at a cis-LD. A series of simulations are presented and show that the scenario works at least under some conditions. While a polymorphism at a single locus with large antagonistic effects can be maintained for a certain range of parameters, a second such variant with somewhat smaller effects tends to be lost unless closely linked. It becomes much more likely for genomically distant variants that add to the antagonism to spread if they get trapped in an inversion; the model predicts this should drive accumulation of sexually antagonistic variants on the inversion versus standard haplotype, leading to the evolution of haplotypes with very strong cumulative antagonistic pleiotropic effects. This idea has some analogies with one of predominant hypotheses for the evolution of sex chromosomes, and the authors discuss these similarities. The model is quite specific, but the basic idea is intuitive and thus should be robust to the details of model assumption. It makes perfect sense in the context of the geographic pattern of inversion frequencies. One prediction of the models (notably that leads to the evolution of nearly homozygously lethal haplotypes) does not seem to reflect the reality of chromosomal inversions in Drosophila, as the authors carefully discuss, but it is the case of some other "supergenes", notably in ants. So the theoretical part is a strong novel contribution.

      We appreciate the detailed and accurate summary of our main theoretic results.

      To provide empirical support for this idea, the authors study the dynamics of inversions in population cages over one generation, tracking their frequencies through amplicon sequencing at three time points: (young adults), embryos and very old adult offspring of either sex (>2 months from adult emergence). Out of four inversions included in the experiment, two show patterns consistent with antagonistic effects on male sexual success (competitive paternity) and the survival of offspring, especially females, until an old age, which the authors interpret as consistent with their theory.

      As I have argued in my comments on previous versions, the experiment only addresses one of the elements of the theoretical hypothesis, namely antagonistic effects of inversions on male reproductive success and other fitness components, in particular of females. Furthermore, the design of this experiment is not ideal from the viewpoint of the biological hypothesis it is aiming to test. This is in part because, rather than testing for the effects of inversion on male reproductive success versus the key fitness components of survival to maturity and female reproductive output, it looks at the effects on male reproductive success versus survival to a rather old age of 2 months. The relevance of survival until old age to fitness under natural conditions is unclear, as the authors now acknowledge. Furthermore, up to 15% of males that may have contributed to the next generation did not survive until genotyping, and thus the difference between these males' inversion frequency and that in their offspring may be confounded by this potential survival-based sampling bias. The experiment does not test for two other key elements of the proposed theory: the assumption of frequency-dependence of selection on male sexual success, and the prediction of synergistic epistasis for male fitness among genetic variants in the inversion. To be fair, particularly testing for synergistic epistasis would be exceedingly difficult, and the authors have now included a discussion of the above caveats and limitations, making their conclusions more tentative. This is good but of course does not make these limitations of the experiment go away. These limitations mean that the paper is stronger as a theoretical than as an empirical contribution.

      We discuss the choice to focus on exploring the potential antagonistic effects of the inversion karyotype on male reproductive success and survival in our general response above. Primarily, this prediction seemed to be the most specific to the proposed model as compared to other alternate models. Still, further studies are clearly needed to elucidate the potential frequency dependence and genetic architecture of the inversions.

      Regarding the choice of age at collection, it is unknown to what degree our selected collection age of 10 weeks correlates with survival in the wild, but we feel confident that there will be some positive correlation.

      We now further clarify that across our experiments, a minimum of 5% and a mean of 9% of the males used in the parental generation died before collection. These proportions do not appear sufficient to explain the differences between paternal and embryo inversion frequencies shown in Figure 9.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In their manuscript the authors address the question whether the inversion polymorphism in D. melanogaster can be explained by sexually antagonistic selection. They designed a new simulation tool to perform computer simulations, which confirmed their hypothesis. They also show a tradeoff between male reproduction and survival. Furthermore, some inversions display sex-specific survival.

      Strengths:

      It is an interesting idea on how chromosomal inversions may be maintained

      Weaknesses:

      The authors motivate their study by the observation that inversions are maintained in D. melanogaster and because inversions are more frequent closer to the equator, the authors conclude that it is unlikely that the inversion contributes to adaptation in more stressful environments. Rather the inversion seems to be more common in habitats that are closer to the native environment of ancestral Drosophila populations.

      While I do agree with the authors that this observation is interesting, I do not think that it rules out a role in local adaptation. After all, the inversion is common in Africa, so it is perfectly conceivable that the non-inverted chromosome may have acquired a mutation contributing to the novel environment.

      Based on their hypothesis, the authors propose an alternative strategy, which could maintain the inversion in a population. They perform some computer simulations, which are in line with the predicted behavior. Finally, the authors perform experiments and interpret the results as empirical evidence for their hypothesis. While the reviewer is not fully convinced about the empirical support, the key problem is that the proposed model does not explain the patterns of clinal variation observed for inversions in D. melanogaster. According to the proposed model, the inversions should have a similar frequency along latitudinal clines. So in essence, the authors develop a complicated theory because they felt that the current models do not explain the patterns of clinal variation, but this model also fails to explain the pattern of clinal variation.

      To the contrary – in the Discussion paragraph beginning on Line 671, we explain why we would predict that a tradeoff between survival and reproduction should lead to clinal inversion frequencies. We suggest that a karyotype associated with a survival penalty should be increasingly disadvantageous in more challenging environments (such as high altitudes and latitudes for this species). Furthermore, an advantage in male reproductive competition conferred by that same haplotype may be reduced by the lower population densities that we would expect in more challenging environments (meaning that each female should encounter fewer males). Individually or jointly, these two factors predict that the equilibrium frequency of a balanced inversion frequency polymorphism should depend on a local population’s environmental harshness and population density, with the ensuing prediction that inversion frequency should correlate with certain environmental variables.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, McAllester and Pool develop a new model to explain the maintenance of balanced inversion polymorphism, based on (sexually) antagonistic alleles and a trade-off between male reproduction and survival (in females or both sexes). Simulations of this model support the plausibility of this mechanism. In addition, the authors use experiments on four naturally occurring inversion polymorphisms in D. melanogaster and find tentative evidence for one aspect of their theoretical model, namely the existence of the above-mentioned trade-off in two out of the four inversions.

      Strengths:

      (1) The study develops and analyzes a new (Drosophila melanogaster-inspired) model for the maintenance of balanced inversion polymorphism, combining elements of (sexually) antagonistically (pleiotropic) alleles, negative frequency-dependent selection and synergistic epistasis. Simulations of the model suggest that the hypothesized mechanism might be plausible.

      (2) The above-mentioned model assumes, as a specific example, a trade-off between male reproductive display and survival; in the second part of their study, the authors perform laboratory experiments on four common D. melanogaster inversions to study whether these polymorphisms may be subject to such a trade-off. The authors observe that two of the four inversions show suggestive evidence that is consistent with a trade-off between male reproduction and survival.

      Open issues:

      (1) A gap in the current modeling is that, while a diploid situation is being studied, the model does not investigate the effects of varying degrees of dominance. It would thus be important and interesting, as the authors mention, to fill this gap in future work.

      (2) It will also be important to further explore and corroborate the potential importance and generality of trade-offs between different fitness components in maintaining inversion polymorphisms in future work.

      We appreciate the work put in to evaluating, improving, and summarizing our study. We agree that further work studying the effects of dominance and of the fitness components of the inversions is important.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      l. 354 : I don't understand what the authors mean by "an antagonistic and non-antagonistic allele". If there is a antagonistic polymorphism at a locus, then both alleles have antagonistic effects; i.e., allele B increases trait 1 and reduced trait 2 relative to allele A and vice versa.

      Edited, agreed that the terminology used here was sub-optimal.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The motivation for their model is their claim that the clinal inversion frequencies are not compatible with local adaptation. The reviewer doubts this strong statement. Furthermore, the proposed model also fails to explain the inversion frequencies in natural populations.

      Hence, rather than building a straw man, it would be better if the authors first show their experiments and then present their model as an explanation for the empirical results. Nevertheless, it is also clear that the empirical data are not very strong and cannot be fully explained by the proposed model.

      This claim that we reject any role of local adaptation in clinal variation and selection upon inversion polymorphism does not hold up in a reading of our manuscript. We even suggest that locally varying selective pressures must be playing some role, although that does not imply that local adaptation is the ultimate driver of inversion frequencies. Indeed, we suggest that local adaptation alone is an insufficient explanation for inversion frequency clines in D. melanogaster, including because (1) these frequency clines do not approach the alternate fixed genotypes predicted by local directional selection, (2) these derived inversions tend to be more frequent in more ancestral environments (l.113-158).

      In our public review response above, and in the Discussion section of our paper, we explain why our model can predict both the clinal frequencies of many Drosophila inversions and their intermediate maximal frequencies. Of course, we do not predict that most inversions in this species should follow the specific tradeoff investigated here. In fact, we were surprised to find even two inversions that experimentally supported our predicted tradeoff. Still, it remains possible that other inversions in this species are subject to other balanced tradeoffs not investigated here, which could help explain why they rarely reach high local frequencies.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      My previous comments have been adequately addressed.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      […]

      To provide empirical support for this idea, the authors study the dynamics of inversions in population cages over one generation, tracking their frequencies through amplicon sequencing at three time points: (young adults), embryos and very old adult offspring of either sex (>2 months from adult emergence). Out of four inversions included in the experiment, two show patterns consistent with antagonistic effects on male sexual success (competitive paternity) and the survival of offspring, especially females, until an old age, which the authors interpret as consistent with their theory.

      There are several reasons why the support from these data for the proposed theory is not waterproof.

      (1) As I have already pointed out in my previous review, survival until 2 months (in fact, it is 10 weeks and so 2.3 months) of age is of little direct relevance to fitness, whether under natural conditions or under typical lab conditions.

      The authors argue this objection away with two arguments

      First, citing Pool (2015) they claim that the average generation time (i.e. the average age at which flies reproduce) in nature is 24 days. That paper made an estimate of 14.7 generations per year under the North Carolina climate. As also stated in Pool (2015), the conditions in that locality for Drosophila reproduction and development are not suitable during three months of the year. This yields an average generation length of about 19.5 days during the 9 months during which the flies can reproduce. On the highly nutritional food used in the lab and at the optimal temperature of 25 C, Drosophila need about 11-12 days to develop from egg to adult. Even assuming these perfect conditions, the average age (counted from adult eclosion) would be about 8 days. In practice, larval development in nature is likely longer for nutritional and temperature reasons, and thus the genomic data analyzed by Pool imply that the average adult age of reproducing flies in nature would be about 5 days, and not 24 days, and even less 10 weeks. This corresponds neatly to the 2-6 days median life expectancy of Drosophila adults in the field based on capture-recapture (e.g., Rosewell and Shorrocks 1987).

      Second, the authors also claim that survival over a period of 2 month is highly relevant because flies have to survive long periods where reproduction is not possible. However, to survive the winter flies enter a reproductive diapause, which involves profound physiological changes that indeed allow them to survive for months, remaining mostly inactive, stress resistant and hidden from predators. Flies in the authors' experiment were not diapausing, given that they were given plentiful food and kept warm. It is still possible that survival to the ripe old age of 10 weeks under these conditions still correlates well with surviving diapause under harsh conditions, but if so, the authors should cite relevant data. Even then, I do not think this allows the authors to conclude that longevity is "the main selective pressure" on Drosophila (l. 936).

      This is overall a thoughtfully presented critique and we have endeavored to improve our discussion of Pool (2015) and to clarify some of the language used about survival elsewhere. While we agree that challenges other than survival to 10 weeks are very relevant to Drosophila melanogaster, collection at 10 weeks does encompass some of these other challenges. Egg to adult viability still contributes to the frequencies of the inversions at collection and is not separable from longevity in this data. Collection at longevity was chosen in part to encompass all lifetime fitness challenges that might influence the inversion frequency at collection, albeit still within permissive laboratory conditions. Future experiments exploring specific stressors independently and beyond permissive lab conditions would generate a clearer picture.

      In addition to general edits, the specific phrase mentioned at 1. 936 [now line 1003] has been revised from “In many such cases females are in reproductive diapause, and so longevity is the main selective pressure.” to “While longevity is a key selective pressure underlying overwintering, the relationship between longevity in permissive lab conditions without diapause and in natural conditions under diapause is unclear (Schmidt et al. 2005; Flatt 2020), and our experiment represents just one of many possible ways to examine tradeoffs involving survival.”

      (2) It appears that the "parental" (in fact, paternal) inversion frequency was estimated by sequencing sires that survived until the end of the two-week mating period. No information is provided on male mortality during the mating period, but substantial mortality is likely given constant courtship and mating opportunities. If so, the difference between the parental and embryo inversion frequency could reflect the differential survival of males until the point of sampling rather than / in addition to sexual selection.

      We have further clarified that when referenced as parental frequency, the frequency presented is ½ the paternal frequency as the mothers were homokaryotypic for the standard arrangement. We chose to present both due to considerations in representing the frequency change from paternal to embryo frequencies, where a hypothetical change from 0.20 frequency in fathers to 0.15 frequency in embryos represents a selective benefit (a frequency increase in the population), despite the reality that this is a decrease in allele frequency between paternal and embryo cohorts.

      We mentioned a maximum 15% paternal mortality at line 827 [now l.1056], but have now added complete data on the counts of flies in the experiment as a supplemental table (Table S1) and have added or corrected further references to this in the results and methods [lines 555, 638, 975]. It is true that this may influence the observed frequency changes to some degree, and while we adjusted our sampling method to account for the effects of this mortality on statistical power [l.1056ff], we have now edited the manuscript to better highlight potential effects of this phenomenon on the recorded frequency changes.

      It is also worth noting that, if mortality among fathers over the mating period is codirectional with mortality among aged offspring, this would bias the results against detecting an opposing antagonistic selective effect of the inversions on paternity share. This is now also mentioned in the manuscript, l.639ff.

      (3) Finally, irrespective of the above caveats, the experimental data only address one of the elements of the theoretical hypothesis, namely antagonistic effects of inversions on reproduction and survival, notably that of females. It does not test for two other key elements of the proposed theory: the assumption of frequency-dependence of selection on male sexual success, and the prediction of synergistic epistasis for male fitness among genetic variants in the inversion. To be fair, particularly testing the latter prediction would be exceedingly difficult. Nonetheless, these limitations of the experiment mean that the paper is much stronger theoretical than empirical contribution.

      This is a fair criticism of the limitations of our results, and we now summarize such caveats more directly in the discussion summary, lines 876ff.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      […]

      Comments on the latest version:

      I would like to give an example of the confusing terminology of the authors:

      "Additionally, fitness conveyed by an allele favoring display quality is also frequency-dependent: since mating success depends on the display qualities of other males, the relative advantage of a display trait will be diminished as more males carry it..."

      I do not understand the difference to an advantageous allele, as it increases in frequency the frequency increase of this allele decreases, but this has nothing to do with frequency dependent selection. In my opinion, the authors re-define frequency dependent selection, as for frequency dependent selection needs to change with frequency, but from their verbal description this is not clear.

      We have edited this text for greater clarity, now line 232ff. We did not seek to redefine frequency dependence, and did mean by “the relative advantage of a display trait will be diminished” that an equivalent s would diminish with frequency. We have now remedied terminological issues introduced in the prior revision with regard to frequency dependent selection.

      One example of how challenging the style of the manuscript is comes from their description of the DNA extraction procedure. In principle a straightforward method, but even here the authors provide a convoluted uninformative description of the procedure.

      We have edited for clarity the text on lines 1016-1020. Citing a published protocol and mentioning our modifications seems an appropriate trade-off between representing what was done accurately, citing the sources we relied on in doing it, and limiting the volume of information in the main text for such a straightforward and common method. 

      It is not apparent to the reviewer why the authors have not invested more effort to make their manuscript digestible.

      We have invested a great deal of effort in making this manuscript as clear as we are able to.  We regret that our writing has not been to this reviewer’s liking. We believe we have been highly responsive to all specific criticisms, including revising all passages cited as unclear. In this round, we have again scrutinized the entire manuscript for any opportunity to clarify it, and we have made further changes throughout.  Although our subject matter is conceptually nuanced, we nevertheless remain optimistic that a careful, fresh reading of our revised manuscript would yield a more favorable impression.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      […]

      Weaknesses:

      A gap in the current modeling is that, while a diploid situation is being studied, the model does not investigate the effects of varying degrees of dominance. It would be important and interesting to fill this gap in future work.

      Agreed, and now reinforced at lines 892ff.

      Comments on the latest version:

      Most of the comments which I have made in my public review have been adequately addressed.

      Some of the writing still seems somewhat verbose and perhaps not yet maximally succinct; some additional line-by-line polishing might still be helpful at this stage in terms of further improving clarity and flow (for the authors to consider and decide).

      We have made further changes and some polishing in this draft, and greatly appreciate the guidance provided in improving the draft so far. 

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) While the model results are convincing, some of the verbal interpretation is confusing. In particular, the authors state that in their model the allele favoring male display quality shows a negative frequency dependence whereas the alternative allele has a positive frequency dependence. This does not make sense to me in the context of population genetics theory. For a one-locus, two-allele model the change of allele frequency under selection depends on the fitness of the genotypes concerned relative to each other. Thus, at least under no dominance assumed in this model, if the relative fitness of AA decreases with the frequency of allele A, the relative fitness of aa must decrease with the frequency of allele a. I.e., if selection is negatively frequency dependent, then it is so for both alleles.

      This phrasing was wrong, and we have edited the relevant section.

      (2) I am still not entirely sure that the synergistic epistasis assumed in the verbal model is actually generated in the simulations; this would be easy enough to check by extracting the mating success of males with different genotypes from the simulation output should be reported, e.g., as a figure supplement.

      Our new Figure S2, which depicts haplotype frequencies for a set of the simulations presented in Figure 4, should demonstrate a necessary presence of synergistic epistasis. These results further clarify that the weaker allele B is only kept when linked to A. The same fitness classes of genotype are present in the simulations with and without the inversion, so the only mechanical difference is the rate of recombination, and the only way this might change selection on the alleles is if a variant has a different fitness in one haplotype background than another – i.e. epistasis. The maintenance of haplotypes AB and ab to the exclusion of Ab and aB relies on the lesser relative fitness of Ab and aB. And since survival values are multiplicative, this additional contribution must come from the mate success of AB being disproportionately larger than Ab or aB, indicating the emergent synergistic epistasis posited by our model. We have clarified this point in the text at line 363ff.

      (3) l. 318ff: What was this set number of males? I could not find this information anywhere. Also, this model of the mating system is commonly referred to as "best of N", so the authors may want to include this label in the description.

      We indicate this detail just after the referenced line, now reworded and on l. 338-340 as “For each female’s mating competition, 100 males were sampled, though see Figure S1 for plots with varying encounter number.”  Among these edits, “one hundred” has been changed to a numeral for easier skimming, and Figure S1 is now referenced here earlier in the text. Several edits have also been made in the caption of Figures 2 and 3, and in the relevant methods section to clarify the number of encountered males simulated, mention best of N terminology, and clarify how the quality score is used in the mate competition.

      (4) The description of the experiment is still confusing. The number of individuals of each sex entered in each mating cage is missing from the Methods (l. 914); although I did finally find it in the Results. These flies were laying over 2 weeks - does this mean that offspring from the entire period were used to obtain the embryo and aged offspring frequencies, or only from a particular egg collection? If the former, does this mean that the offspring obtained from different egg batches were aged separately? Were the offspring aged in cages or bottles, at what density? Given that only those males that survived until the end of the two-week mating period were sequenced, it is important to know what % of the initial number of males these survivors were. A substantial mortality of the parental males could bias the estimate of parental frequencies. How many parental males, embryos and aged offspring were sequenced? Were all individuals of a given cage and stage extracted and sequenced as a single pool or were there multiple pools? The description could also be structured better. For example, the food and grape agar recipes and cage construction are inserted at random points of the description of the crossing design, which does not help.

      We have now reorganized and edited these portions of the Methods text. Portions of this comment overlap with edits responding to (2) of the Public Review and below for l. 921 in Details. Offspring from different laying periods were aged in different bottles, further separated by the time at which they eclosed. They were then pooled for DNA extraction and library preparation by sex and a binary early or late eclosion time. This data was present in the “D. mel. Sample Size” column of supplemental tables S6 and S7 (now S7 and S8), but we have added and referenced a new table to specifically collate the sample sizes of different experimental stages, table S1. Now referenced at lines 555, 638, 975, 1057.

      (5) The caption of figure 9 and the discussion of its results should be clear and explicit about the fact that "adult offspring" in Fig 9A and "female" and "male" refers to adults surviving to old age (whereas "parental" in Fig 9A refers to young adults in their reproductive prime. This has consequences for the interpretation of the difference between "parental" and "adult offspring", as it combines one generation of usual selection as it occurs under the conditions of the lab culture (young adult at generation t -> young adult in generation t+1) with an additional step of selection for longevity. Thus, a marked change in allele frequency does not imply that the "parental" frequency does not represent an equilibrium frequency of the inversions under the lab culture conditions. Furthermore, it would be useful to state explicitly that Figure 9B represents the same results as figure 9A, but with the aged offspring split by sex.

      Figure caption edited to provide further clarity on the age of cohorts and presented data, along with the relevant results section (2.3) referencing this figure.

      We avoid making any statements about the equilibrium frequencies of inversions under lab conditions, and whether or not any step of our experiment reflects such equilibria, because our investigation does not rely upon or test for such conditions. Instead, our analysis focuses on whether inversions have contrasting effects (as indicated by frequency changes that are incompatible with neutral sampling) between different life history components.  Under our model, such frequency reversals might be detectable both at equilibrium balanced inversion frequencies and also at frequencies some distance away from equilibria. We have now clarified this point at l. 970-972.

      Details:

      l. 211: this should be modified as male-only costs are now included.

      Edited. “survival likelihood (of either or both sexes).”

      l. 343: misplaced period

      Edited.

      l. 814: "We confirmed model predictions...": This sounds like it refers to an empirical confirmation of a theory prediction, but I think the authors just want to say that their simulations predicted antagonistic variants can be maintained at an intermediate equilibrium frequency. So the wording should be changed to avoid ambiguity.

      Edited. Now line 869.

      l. 853: How can a genome be "empty"? Do the authors mean an absence of any polymorphism?

      Edited to: “In SAIsim, a population is instantiated as a python object, and populated with individuals which are also represented by python objects. These individuals may be instantiated using genomes specified by the user, or by default carry no genomic variation.” Lines 913ff.

      l. 853: I do not see this diagramed in Figure 5

      Apologies, fixed to Fig. 2

      l. 864: is crossing-over in the model limited to female gametogenesis (reflecting the Drosophila case) or does it occur in both sexes?

      There is a variable in the simulator to make crossover female-specific. All simulations were performed with female-only crossover. Edited for clarity. “While the simulator can allow recombination in both sexes, all simulations presented only generate crossovers and gene conversion events for female gametes, in accordance with the biology of D. melanogaster.” Lines 928-929.

      l. 906: "F2" is ambiguous; does this mean that the mix of lines was allowed to breed for two generations? Also, in other places in the manuscript these flies appear to be referred to are "parental". So do not use F2.

      Edited, F2 language removed and replaced with being allowed to breed for two generations. Now lines 967ff.

      l. 910: this is incorrect/imprecise; what can be inferred is the frequency of the inversions in male gametes that contributed to fertilization. This would correspond to the frequency in successful males only if each successful male genotype had the same paternity share.

      Edited, now “Since no inversions could be inherited through the mothers, inversion frequencies among successful male gametes could be inferred from their pooled offspring.” Now line 994.

      l. 912: "without a controlled day/night cycle" meaning what? Constant light? Constant darkness? Daylight falling through the windows?

      Edited to “Unless otherwise noted, all flies were kept in a lab space of 23°C with around a degree of temperature fluctuation and without a controlled day/night cycle. Light exposure was dependent on the varying use of the space by laboratory workers but amounted to near constant exposure to at least a minimal level of lighting, with some variable light due to indirect lighting from adjacent rooms with exterior windows.” Now lines 1007-1010.

      l. 921: I cannot parse this sentence. Were the offspring isolated as virgins?

      No, the logistics of collecting virgins would have been prohibitive, and it did not seem essential for our experiment. Hopefully the edits to this section are clearer, now lines 978ff.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      This manuscript reports the substrate-bound structure of SiaQM from F. nucleatum, which is the membrane component of a Neu5Ac-specific Tripartite ATP-dependent Periplasmic (TRAP) transporter. Until recently, there was no experimentally derived structural information regarding the membrane components of TRAP transporter, limiting our understanding of the transport mechanism. Since 2022, there have been 3 different studies reporting the structures of the membrane components of Neu5Ac-specific TRAP transporters. While it was possible to narrow down the binding site location by comparing the structures to proteins of the same fold, a structure with substrate bound has been missing. In this work, the authors report the Na+-bound state and the Na+ plus Neu5Ac state of FnSiaQM, revealing information regarding substrate coordination. In previous studies, 2 Na+ ion sites were identified. Here, the authors also tentatively assign a 3rd Na+ site. The authors reconstitute the transporter to assess the effects of mutating the binding site residues they identified in their structures. Of the 2 positions tested, only one of them appears to be critical to substrate binding.

      Strengths: 

      The main strength of this work is the capture of the substrate bound state of SiaQM, which provides insight into an important part of the transport cycle.

      Weaknesses: 

      The main weakness is the lack of experimental validation of the structural findings. The authors identified the Neu5Ac binding site, but only test 2 residues for their involvement in substrate interactions, which is quite limited. However, comparison with previous mutagenesis studies on homologues supports the location of the Neu5Ac binding site. The authors tentatively identified a 3rd Na+ binding site, which if true would be an impactful finding, but this site was not sufficiently experimentally tested for its contribution to Na+ dependent transport. This lack of experimental validation prevents the authors from unequivocally assigning this site as a Na+ binding site. However, the reporting of these new data is important as it will facilitate follow up studies by the authors or other researchers. 

      Comments on revisions: 

      Overall, the authors have done a good job of addressing the reviewers' comments. It's good to know that the authors are working on the characterisation of the potential metal binding site mutants - characterizing just a few of these will provide much-needed experimental support for this potential Na+ site. 

      The new MD simulations provide additional support for the new Na+ site and could be included.

      However, as the authors know, direct experimental characterisation of mutants is the ideal evidence of the Na+ site.

      Aside from the characterisation of mutants, which seems to be held up by technical issues, the only remaining issue is the comparison of the Na+- and Na+/Neu5Ac-bound states with ASCT2. It still does not make sense to me why the authors are not directly comparing their Na+ only and Na+/Neu5Ac states with the structures of VcINDY in the Na+-only and Na+/succinate bound states. These VcINDY structures also revealed no conformational changes in the HP loops upon binding succinate, as the authors see for SiaQM. Therefore, this comparison is very supportive. It is understood that the similarity to the DASS structure is mentioned on p.17, but it is also interesting and useful to note that TRAP and DASS transporters also share a lack of substrateinduced local conformational changes, to the extent these things have been measured.

      We acknowledge the summary weakness that experimental data to support the third Na binding site is critical.

      Based on the reviewer’s suggestion, we added the following in the main text and a supplementary figure comparing the Na ion binding sites between VcINDY and SiaQM. Page 13.

      “These two sodium ion binding sites are also conserved in the structure of VcINDY (Supplementary Figure 7) (Sauer et al., 2022). In both cases, the sodium ions are bound at the helix-loop-helix ends of HP1 and HP2. The binding sites utilize both side chains and main chain carbonyl groups. The number of main chain carbonyl interactions suggests that they are critical, and using main chain rather than side chain interactions minimizes the likelihood of point mutations affecting the binding.”

      Reviewer #3 (Public review): 

      The manuscript by Goyal et al report substrate-bound and substrate-free structures of a tripartite ATP independent periplasmic (TRAP) transporter from a previously uncharacterized homolog, F. nucleatum. This is one of most mechanistically fascinating transporter families, by means of its QM domain (the domain reported in his manuscript) operating as a monomeric 'elevator', and its P domain functioning as a substrate-binding 'operator' that is required to deliver the substrate to the QM domain; together, this is termed an 'elevator with an operator' mechanism.

      Remarkably, previous structures had not demonstrated the substrate Neu5Ac bound. In addition, they confirm the previously reported Na+ binding sites, and report a new metal binding site in the transporter, which seems to be mechanistically relevant. Finally, they mutate the substrate binding site and use proteoliposomal uptake assays to show the mechanistic relevance of the proposed substrate binding residues.

      Strengths: 

      The structures are of good quality, the presentation of the structural data has improved, the functional data is robust, the text is well-written, and the authors are appropriately careful with their interpretations. Determination of a substrate bound structure is an important achievement and fills an important gap in the 'elevator with an operator' mechanism.

      Weaknesses: 

      Although the possibility of the third metal site is compelling, I do not feel it is appropriate to model in a publicly deposited PDB structure without directly confirming experimentally. The authors do not extensively test the binding sites due to technical limitations of producing relevant mutants; however, their model is consistent with genetic assays of previously characterized orthologs, which will be of benefit to the field. Finally, some clarifications of EM processing would be useful to readers, and it would be nice to have a figure visualizing the unmodeled lipid densities - this would be important to contextualize to their proposed mechanism.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      I appreciate the authors' responses to our critiques; the revised manuscript is much improved and has addressed most of my concerns. I look forward to seeing their follow up experiments testing mutational e=ects. I think MD simulations of ion-binding sites on their own are supportive but by themselves not su=icient to prove the existence of a functional Na+-binding site. Some clarifications in the methods/supplements would satisfy my concerns about data processing and analysis.

      - Unliganded map: were the 141,272 particles used for one class of ab initio? This is unusual, usually multiple ab initio classes are used to further eliminate junk particles. The authors themselves use 6 classes for the substrate-bound dataset.

      We classified the particles into multiple 3-D classes.  There was no improvement in statistics or maps on splitting these further.  Hence, we did not pursue that further. 

      - Substrate-bound map: how did the four 'identical' classes independently refine? Are similar Na+/substate densities found in each separate class?

      The other classes refined to worse than 4.5 Å resolution. We stopped characterizing them past that point.  We were hoping to see multiple conformations that are diLerent – and hopefully a class where only two sodium ions could be bound.  However, any interpretation at 4.5 Å would be unreliable.

      - Both maps: all ab initio classes prior to final refinement should be displayed in the supplementary workflow, this is common for EM processing diagrams.

      We agree it is common – however, unless there is a good reason to discuss the other classes, we are not convinced of the value of crowding the figures.

      - What specific refinement package and version of Phenix are the authors using? It seems unusual that it is not possible to refine without a metal in Phenix real-space refinement, I have seen many structures where there is no issue refining without critical ions/waters. The authors should double check that they are using the appropriate scattering table for cryo-EM, which should be "electron".

      Sorry for the confusion – we did not mean to say we cannot refine without a metal. If we want to add something to the density, we cannot refine it without suggesting a metal or solvent.  The site without anything added will refine without any issues but in the absence of additional verification, we cannot be sure of the identity of the ions. We are confident of the metal binding site – but not confident of the exact metal bound.  We used Sodium as our first hypothesis.

      We don’t think the scattering factors will help in the identification of the ions. Servalcat as part of CCP-EM can produce diLerence maps and we believe that for identification of ions, it will require higher resolution (<2.5 Å) but at this resolution, we can say that there is a nonprotein density but not more than that. We were using “electron” (which we believe is default with phenix.real_space_refine). The refinement was performed using standard protocols and appropriate scattering factors (Phenix version 1.19x), and we have previously used similar refinement protocols for other maps/models (Example -Vinothkumar KR, Arya CK, Ramanathan G, Subramanian R. 2021. Comparison of CryoEM and X-ray structures of dimethylformamidase. Progress in Biophysics and Molecular Biology, CryoEM microscopy developments and their biological applications 160:66–78. doi:10.1016/j.pbiomolbio.2020.06.008).

      To convince the reviewer of the quality of the maps, we have added figures that show the model-to-map fit of all of the main secondary structural elements in both the unliganded and the Neu5Ac bound forms.

      - I certainly understand the authors' reluctance to not model the entirety of protein densities; however, I think it would be useful to highlight these densities in the global context of the protein. A common way to show this is to show the density proximal to protein chains in one color, and the remaining densities in a contrasting color (Figure 1 somewhat demonstrates this but it is di=icult to tell). I think this would be a nice figure to show the presence and location of unmodeled densities.

      We have modified supplementary figure 3 to include unmodelled densities in panels G and H for both structures.

      - Small detail, "uniform" is misspelled as "unifrom" in supplementary Figure 3. 

      Thank you.  Corrected.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We appreciate the positive assessment and agree that the experimental data offer valuable insights into HBV capsid assembly inhibition. Based on the reviewers' suggestions, we have clarified the cryo-EM data and added structural and mechanistic details throughout the manuscript, which we believe significantly enhance its overall clarity and impact. The manuscript now better reflects a promising strategy to interfere with the HBV life cycle. We have carefully addressed all comments to improve both the clarity and quality of the manuscript.

      Response to Public Reviews

      We greatly appreciate the insightful comments and suggestions from the reviewers. Below, we provide responses to the points raised in the public reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, the authors present an interesting strategy to interfere with the HBV life cycle: the preparation of geranyl and peptides' dimers that could impede the correct assembly of hepatitis B core protein HBc into viable capsids. These dimers are of different nature, depending on the HBc site the authors plan to target. A preliminary study with geranyl dimers (targeting a hydrophobic site of HBc) was first investigated. The second series deals with peptide-PEG linker-peptide dimers, targeting the tips of HBc dimer spikes.

      Strengths:

      This work is very well conducted, combining ITC experiments (for determination of dimers' KD), cellular effects (thanks to the grafting of previously developed dimers with polyarginine-based cell penetrating peptide) HBV infected HEK293 cells and Cryo-EM studies.

      The findings of these research teams unambiguously demonstrated the interest of such dimeric structures in impeding the correct HBV life cycle and thus, could bring solutions in the control of its development. Ultimately, a new class of HBV Capside Assembly Modulators could arise from this study.

      There is no doubt that this work could bring very interesting information for people working on VHB.

      Weaknesses:

      Some minor corrections must be made, especially for a more precise description of the strategy and the chemical structure of the designed new VHB capsid assembly modulators.

      We are grateful for the positive feedback on the experimental design, the combination of ITC, cellular effects, and Cryo-EM studies, and the potential for developing new classes of HBV Capsid Assembly Modulators (CAMs). In the revised version we have clarified the design rationale for the choice of the PEG linker length in the Supplementary Information, linking it to the structural measurements of the capsid. Chemical structures and detailed molecular formulas were added and terms have been corrected. A scrambled dimeric peptide served as a negative control, which showed no binding, confirming the specificity of our designed peptide and ruling out non-specific interactions from other elements of the molecules such as the linkers. Finally, we have revised the nomenclature for the geranyl dimers to better reflect the chemical structure. All figures, including Figure 3, have been updated to high-resolution. All mentioned typos have been corrected. Consultation dates have been added to the website references. HPLC terminology was corrected.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Vladimir Khayenko et al. discovered two novel binding pockets on HBc with in vitro binding and electron microscopy experiments. While the geranyl dimer targeting a central hydrophobic pocket displayed a micromolar affinity, the P1-dimer binding to the spike tip of HBc has a nanomolar affinity. In the turbidity assay and at the cellular level, an HBc aggregation from peptide crosslinking was demonstrated.

      Strengths:

      The study identifies two previously unexplored binding pockets on HBc capsids and develops novel binders targeting these sites with promising affinities.

      Weaknesses:

      While the in vitro and cellular HBc aggregation effects are demonstrated, the antiviral potential against HBV infection is not directly evaluated in this study.

      Thank you for recognizing the innovative approach of our work and the potential for developing novel antivirals targeting HBc. We have now included additional discussion on potential future experiments aimed at evaluating the compounds' effects on cellular physiology and viral infectivity.

      Reviewer #3 (public Review):

      Summary:

      HBV is a continuing public health problem and new therapeutics would be of great value. Khayenko et al examine two sites in the HBc dimer as possible targets for new therapeutics. Older drugs that target HBc bind at a pocket between two HBc dimers. In this study Khayenko et al examine sites located in the four helix bundle at the dimer interface.

      The first site is a pocket first identified as a triton100 binding site. The authors suggest it might bind terpenes and use geraniol as an example. They also test a decyl maltose detergent and a geraniol dimer intended for bivalent binding. The KDs were all in the 100µM range. Cryo-EM shows that geraniol binds the targeted site.

      The second site is at the tip of the spike. Peptides based on a 1995 study (reference 43) were investigated. The authors test a core peptide, two longer peptides, and a dimer of the longest peptide. A deep scan of the longest monomer sequence shows the importance of a core amino acid sequence. The dimeric peptide (P1-dimer) binds almost 100 fold better than the monomer parent (P1). Cryo-EM structures confirm the binding site. The dimeric peptide caused HBc capsid aggregation When HBc expressing cells were treated with active peptide attached to a cell penetrating peptide, the peptide caused aggregation of HBc antigen mirroring experiments with purified proteins.

      Strengths:

      The two sites have not been well investigated. This paper marks a start. The small collection of substrates investigated led to discovery of a dimeric peptide that leads to capsid aggregation, presumably by non-covalent crosslinking. The structures determined could be very useful for future investigations.

      Weaknesses:

      In this draft, the rational for targets for the triton x100 site is not well laid out. The target molecules bind with KDs weaker that 50µM. The way the structural results are displayed, one cannot be sure of the important features of binding site with respect to the the substrate. The peptide site and substrates are better developed, but structural and mechanistic details need to be described in greater detail.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s positive comments on identifying and targeting previously unexplored sites on HBc, and the potential utility of our dimeric peptides in future studies. We have revised the Results section to better explain the rationale behind targeting the hydrophobic binding site. Additionally, the structures have been revised for clearer presentation, and we now emphasize the key features of the binding site and the role of substrate specificity.

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      For clarity, the chemical structure of SLLGRM peptide, geraniol and HAP molecules must be indicated, preferably in Fig. 1 (at least in the Supplementary Information section).

      We have now included the chemical structures of the SLLGRM peptide, geraniol, and HAP molecules for clarity in Figure 1 and in the main manuscript to ensure they are easily accessible for reference and to provide further detail and context.

      In the same idea, in Fig. 1 (and in the text): The molecular formula of heteroaryldihydropyrimidine HAP must be clearly indicated, as the nature of the heteroatom (S, O, N?) in this "heteroaryl" derivative is not indicated.

      The full molecular formula of HAP (((2S)-1-[[(4R)-4-(2-chloranyl-4-fluoranyl-phenyl)-5-methoxycarbonyl-2-(1,3-thiazol-2-yl)-1,4-dihydropyrimidin-6-yl]methyl]-4,4-bis(fluoranyl)-pyrrolidine-2-carboxylic acid), is now included the figure legend.

      with a polyethylene glycol (PEG) linker that could bridge the distance of 38 Å between the two opposing hydrophobic pockets": what is the rationale of the design of this linker? Authors must explain briefly why/how they have chosen this linker length and nature (please indicate a reference for the appropriate choice of PEG linker). Same remarks for dimers targeting the capsid spike tips, having 50 angstroms PEG linkers. So, the choice of the linker length must be clearly explained and not be only mentioned in the sentence of the discussion part "Using our structural knowledge of the capsid, particularly the distances between the spikes.

      We have now better clarified the rationale for the design of the PEG linker length. The linker lengths were specifically chosen based on structural knowledge of the capsid, particularly the measured distances between the spike tips (60 Å) and the hydrophobic pockets (40 Å). In the Supplementary Information (Supplementary Figure 1), we now clearly explain how these measurements guided the choice of PEG linker length, allowing for optimal bridging and interaction between the binding sites. This supplementary figure now explicitly connects the design rationale to the specific structural features of the capsid.

      I do not agree with the authors when they claim a "nanomolar affinity of 312 nM". To me, a nanomolar affinity would require several of few tens of nanoM (but not three hundreds) ... So, please correct with "sub-micromolar affinity of 312 nM" and all the other parts of the manuscript (title and caption of Figure 3..., "the peptide dimer (P1dC) with nanomolar affinity" "nanomolar levels"...).

      We thank the Rev#1 for pointing this out. Since the term "nanomolar affinity" can indeed be interpreted as referring to the lower end of the nanomolar range, rather than values close to 300 nM we have revised the manuscript to refer to the "sub-micromolar affinity" where applicable. This change has been made throughout the manuscript, including the subtitles and figure captions, and the text.

      The drug design strategy was to combine two peptides showing low affinity, attached by a PEG linker with an appropriate length and appears obvious to me. But a control experiment is anyway missing: the peptide-PEG linker derivative (not the dimer peptide-PEG linker-peptide...) should have been evaluated for an unambiguous proof of concept of these dimeric peptides. To my opinion, for the publication of this work, these experiments should be brought (eg, when describing the affinities of SLLGR dimers). I agree that Cryo-EM experiments bring evidences of the dimer binding but the affinity values for (peptide-PEG linker) derivatives would bring an additional proof (as the PEG flexible linkers was not resolved by Cryo-EM).

      Thank you for your thoughtful comment regarding the use of a monovalent control for the peptide-PEG linker. A scrambled dimeric peptide serves as a negative control. In ITC it showed no binding at all. Thereby ruling out possibly unspecific interactions mediated by the introduced PEG linker or handle itself.

      Given the complete lack of binding with the scrambled dimeric peptide, we believe this thoroughly excludes the need for an additional monovalent control, as it provides strong evidence that the observed binding is driven specifically by the designed peptide sequence and not by the linker or other structural components. We have now made this clarification more explicit in the revised manuscript to avoid any ambiguity. We hope this addresses your concern, and we appreciate your suggestion to further strengthen the rigor of the work. Despite its identical charge, molecular weight and atom composition the scrambled control did not cause HBc aggregation in living cells, thus indicating sequence specific action of the aggregating dimer.

      The nomenclature of the dimers must be modified because there is no logic between the name "long dimer" and the chemical structure. Particularly, the number of ethylene glycol motifs must be indicated: authors have to find an appropriate nomenclature indicating both the linker length and nature (small molecule or peptide) of the bivalent parts (and hence, do not mention anymore "short geranyl dimer" "long geranyl dimer").

      Thank you for your valuable suggestion regarding the nomenclature of the dimers. We agree that the terms "short geranyl dimer" and "long geranyl dimer" do not fully reflect the chemical structure of the molecules. In response, we have revised the nomenclature to provide a clearer indication of both the linker length and the nature of the bivalent parts. We now refer to the dimers as (Geranyl)<sub>2</sub>-Lys for the dimer with two geranyl groups attached to lysine and (Geranyl-PEG3)<sub>2</sub>-Lys for the dimer with a PEG3 linker (three ethylene glycol units) between the lysine amine and the geranyl groups. These revised names more accurately describe the structural differences and should avoid any ambiguity.

      Lines 198-199: "Among these, the dimerized P1 exhibited a higher 198 occupation of the binding site, as illustrated in Supplementary Figure 9." But in Supp. Fig. 9, dimer P1dC (10) is described. As the text above is describing P1-dimer (9), the Supp. Fig. 9 must be provided, if available. If not, please modify this conclusion accordingly. In the text, when mentioning dimerized P1 peptide, authors must indicate with which compound it deals: (9) or (10)?

      Thank you for your careful reading of the manuscript and for pointing out the discrepancy. In Supplementary Figure 9, the dimer described is P1dC, not P1d. The text has been revised to clarify this. We appreciate your attention to detail.

      Please note that the graphic quality of Figure 3 is bad as it results in pixelized drawings (especially for the chemical structures).

      Thank you for your feedback regarding the quality of Figure 3. We have now updated all figures, including Figure 3, to high-resolution PNG format with 300-500 dpi to ensure optimal graphic quality. This should resolve the pixelization issue, particularly for the chemical structures.

      Minor typos: "clinical studies, a third are CAMs.[6]" "to the spike base hydrophobic pocket" "geraniol affinity to the central hydrophobic pocket, we designed"

      We have corrected the punctuation in the mentioned sentences and appreciate your careful review of the manuscript.

      Concerning the citation of a website (references 5 and 6), I guess that the consultation date should be mentioned.

      We have now updated the references accordingly, including the consultation dates.

      In the Materials and Methods part, Peptide synthesis paragraph, authors must write "semi-preparative HPLC.

      It’s now corrected to "semi-preparative HPLC".

      In the supplementary information file, 1H and 13C NMR spectrum for the small molecule "Short Geranyl Dimer (SGD)" should be provided.

      The purity and identity of this Geranyl derivate were confirmed through UV detection in LC-MS and supported by the mass spectra, which provide robust and clear evidence of the compound's structure and well-accepted method for confirming the structure in this context. While we understand the value of NMR in structural analysis, we believe that additional analytical evidence is not critical for this study.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Overall, this study presents an innovative approach to target the HBV core protein and paves the way for developing new classes of antivirals with a distinct mechanism of action. The findings expand the current knowledge of druggable sites on HBc capsids and provide promising lead compounds. Future studies exploring the antiviral effects and optimizing the binders for therapeutic applications would be valuable next steps.

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for the positive assessment of our work and for highlighting its innovative approach to targeting the HBV core protein. We appreciate your recognition of the study's potential in paving the way for developing new classes of antivirals with distinct mechanisms of action. Below, we provide responses to each of the points raised.

      The significance of the central hydrophobic pocket as a target may require additional experiments for validation. Currently, the substrate binding activity is relatively low and appears to have a non-significant impact on HBc.

      We agree that the central hydrophobic pocket exhibits relatively weak binding affinity with the ligands tested in this study. However, we have provided additional structural evidence and affinity data to support its relevance as a druggable site. In recognition of the weak affinity of these small molecules, we expanded our focus to include peptide-based binders, which yielded higher affinities, particularly when dimerized.

      It might be more effective to present Figure 1B after summarizing all the results.

      We understand the reviewer’s suggestion. However, we decided to highlight and summarize the major findings early in the manuscript. We included Figure 1B at the beginning to allow readers to quickly grasp the core concepts and outcomes of our study.

      The labels for P1/P2 are presented in Figure 1A, yet their definitions are not provided until the second part of the Results section.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s observation. While see a benefit of showing three trackable sites on HBV early and as an overview but we also agree that the early presentation of P1/P2 could lead to some confusion. To resolve this, we have revised the figure to introduce only on the minimal peptide to avoid any ambiguity. The full dimer sequences and names are introduced later.

      Further investigation of the cytotoxic potential of peptide-induced HBc aggregation is necessary.

      Investigating the cytotoxicity together with infectivity is an important future direction but outside the scope of this study. We now elaborate on this point in the discussion.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Two sites in the dimer interface are shown to bind ligands. It is not shown that filling these regions will change infection. The exhaustive studies by Bruss showed point mutations directly alter infection and would be of value to discuss.

      We thank Rev#3 for this very helpful comment. We now highlight how point mutations in these regions were shown to affect HBV infectivity. Thereby providing a link between our findings and how ligand binding might influence the viral life cycle.

      It is not shown whether the two sites interact. Molecular dynamics by Hadden or Gumbart may be informative. The failure to look for a connection between these sites is an oversight.

      We thank Rev#3 for the insightful suggestion to explore potential interactions between the two binding sites. We acknowledge that molecular dynamics (MD) simulations, such as those performed by Gumbart et al. and Hadden et al., could indeed provide valuable insights into the structural dynamics and potential cooperativity between these sites. Indeed, molecular dynamics of the HBV capsid by Perilla and Hadden has demonstrated significant flexibility in the capsid spikes and their interactions with neighboring subunits suggesting that the dynamics of binding sites could influence ligand accessibility and potential crosstalk.

      We believe that our own previous structural studies together with data in this work provide substantial experimental evidence on this topic. In Makbul et al. 2021a (doi.org/10.3390/microorganisms9050956) we observed that peptide binding (particularly P2) did not stabilize the spikes; instead, the upper part of the spikes exhibited considerable wobbling. This variability mirrored the conformational diversity reported in MD simulations. Using local classification, we noted that the variability in the spike's upper region was greater when P2 was bound than in its absence. Additionally, in Makbul et al. 2021b (doi.org/10.3390/v13112115), we showed that peptide binding had little effect on the hydrophobic pocket beneath the mobile spike region, located in the more rigid part of the capsid. While we observed F97 in the D-monomer adopting two alternate rotamer orientations upon P2 binding this was not exclusive to P2, as similar changes were noted in the L60V mutant even without bound peptide.

      We have updated the manuscript to briefly discuss this crosstalk, that provides additional context to our findings. Interestingly, only TX100—but not geraniol—completely flipped F97 into an alternate orientation, forming a new π-π stacking interaction with the mobile region of the spike. This finding suggests that interactions within the hydrophobic pocket are transmitted based on ligand specific interactions to the tips of the spikes. Thus, supporting and refining the concept of a crosstalk between binding sites, primarily initiated from the hydrophobic pocket in a ligand specific fashion.

      The logic for proposing a terpene ligand is strained. Comparisons are made to HBs and the HDV delta antigen. However, HBs is myristoylated not farnesylated and delta antigen binds HBs not HBc.

      We have revised the text to clarify the rationale for testing terpenes as ligands, focusing instead on the specific properties of the hydrophobic pocket targeted by geraniol.

      The authors suggest larger terpenes as binding agents, but there does not appear to be room for a longer molecule in the binding site. The authors do not discuss whether a longer molecule could be modeled in the site based on their density.

      We appreciate this observation and agree that the potential for larger terpenes to bind this site is not obvious from the structural data presented in this work. We have now included a more detailed visualization (Fig2D) and discussion of the hydrophobic binding pocket, based on the density observed in the presented geraniol structure and the previous triton structure and discuss its implications of the binding of larger hydrophobic molecules into the site (Fig 2D).

      The authors note that the structure could explain molecular details of this site, but these are not discussed. A more complete analysis of the geraniol protein is necessary, including an estimate of the resolution of that density.

      We agree that a more complete analysis of the hydrophobic binding site was warranted. We have now expanded the discussion of the structural details of this binding site based on the geraniol-bound structure, the density and occupancy accounted by this ligand. These additional details (Fig 2C,D and Fig 5) should provide a clearer understanding of the binding interactions observed.

      The dimeric geraniol is marginally better binding than the monomer, two-fold, but this could be due to doubling the number of geraniols per ligand or due to an undefined interaction of the extended molecule with the surface of the capsid. A geraniol linker should be tested.

      The modest improvement in binding may indeed only reflect the doubled number of geraniols rather than linker-mediated avidity effects. Interaction of the linker with the capsid surface is ruled-out by the scrambled control that included the same linkers but did not show any capacity to bind.

      Is the enhanced binding of dimer due to bivalent binding of dimer to one capsid? Is it a chance interaction of the linker with the surface of HBc, which is easily tested? Is it an avidity effect due to aggregation of capsids?

      Thank you for this insightful question. Our data suggest that the enhanced binding is due to bivalent interactions. To address the possibility of non-specific interactions from either the handle or the linker, we included a scrambled dimeric peptide as a negative control, which showed no binding. This rules out non-specific interactions from the linker or handle. Given this, we believe an additional monovalent control is unnecessary, as the scrambled control confirms that the binding is driven by the geraniol and peptide warheads alone. We have clarified this in the revised manuscript and appreciate your suggestion to strengthen the study.

      The experimental analysis of point mutation of P1 is not analyzed beyond stating that it shows the importance of the core peptide sequence. Is there rationale for the effect of R3 to E and K10 to E mutation?

      We appreciate the reviewer's curiosity and request for a more detailed discussion of the P1 deep mutational scan data and its implications. The observed low mutation tolerance of the core peptide sequence SLLGRM regarding HBc binding is highly consistent with our prior structural data and binding studies in solutions (https://doi.org/10.3390/microorganisms9050956) as well as the results from the original phage library screening (M. R. Dyson, K. Murray, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 1995, 92, 2194–2198), and the binding data presented here. Notably, the data set does not suggest that additional binding interfaces contribute to the aggregation seen with N-terminal elongated P1 and P2 versus the non-aggregating shorter SLLGRM. While the positional scan largely aligns with previous phage binding hierarchy and quantified ligands, we were previously prompted by surprising affinity gains for positive to negative amino exchanges in related peptides in same way as Rev#3: Specifically, “SLLGEM” has been predicted previously and here to show enhanced affinity over “SLLGRM”. Quantification in solution, however, could not confirm this enhanced HBV binding affinity (Makbul et al. 2021 Microorganisms), which could not be recapitulated by in solution quantification. In the revised version of the manuscript we now highlight the possible limited predictive power of this assay for positions where positively charged residues are exchanged by negatively charged residues (Figure legend of Fig 3D).

      The fluctuations in Figure 3B could be largely magnification of noise due to changing the y-axis. The fluctuations can be characterized as standard variation, excluding the injections, to allow a quantitative judgment.

      Isothermal titration calorimetry heat fluctuations without injections are now shown in the supplementary information scaled to the same y-axis (Supplementary Figure 3D). 

      Molecular graphics throughout are too small and poorly labeled.

      We have revised the molecular graphics throughout the manuscript to increase their size and improve labeling for clarity. All figures are now provided in 500dpi.

      In Figure 2, compounds 1 and 2 are pyrophosphates. The label in the figure should be corrected.

      Thank you for pointing this out. These compounds were removed for clarity.

      In the introduction, the phrase "discontinuation frequently leads to relapse" should be changed to something less ambiguous.

      Thank you for highlighting this point regarding the phrasing in the introduction. We have revised the statement to more accurately reflect the clinical situation by specifying that stopping treatment often results in viral rebound and disease recurrence in many patients. This adjustment clarifies the intended meaning and addresses the ambiguity you identified. We hope this revision better aligns with the clinical context of HBV management and improves the overall clarity of the manuscript.

      Define "functional cure" in the introduction.

      Thank you for your suggestion to clarify the term 'functional cure.' We have revised the manuscript and instead of ”functional cure” we mention the goal of sustained viral suppression without detectable HBV DNA and loss of hepatitis B surface antigen (HBsAg) without the need for continuous therapy. This should provide greater clarity for readers and improve the overall comprehensibility of the introduction.

      The sentence beginning line 92 is not clear unless one has already read the paper. Figure 1 is not well described.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback regarding the clarity of this sentence and the legend of Figure 1. We have revised the text and legend to provide more context and improve the flow for readers who are unfamiliar with the specifics of the study. The revised version now clearly explains the targeted binding sites and the purpose of the bivalent binders at the beginning of the results section.

      In line 235 the meaning is not clear. What is in excess? Is there free CPP in solution? Is it the charge on the CPP?

      We have clarified the passage as requested.

      When describing peptide-induced aggregation, Figures 5 and 6, figure 1B is never referred to. Figure 1B would work better as part of Figure 6.

      We understand the reviewer’s suggestion. However, we decided to highlight and summarize the major findings and the underlying hypothesis early in the manuscript. We included Figure 1B at the beginning to allow readers to quickly grasp a core concept and outcome of our study.

      We now however refer to Figure 1B and together with all the other changes hope that we have improved the clarity and quality of the manuscript.

      We appreciate your constructive feedback and the opportunity to further refine the work.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Rigor in the design and application of scientific experiments is an ongoing concern in preclinical (animal) research. Because findings from these studies are often used in the design of clinical (human) studies, it is critical that the results of the preclinical studies are valid and replicable. However, several recent peer-reviewed published papers have shown that some of the research results in cardiovascular research literature may not be valid because their use of key design elements is unacceptably low. The current study is designed to expand on and replicate previous preclinical studies in nine leading scientific research journals. Cardiovascular research articles that were used for examination were obtained from a PubMed Search. These articles were carefully examined for four elements that are important in the design of animal experiments: use of both biological sexes, randomization of subjects for experimental groups, blinding of the experimenters, and estimating the proper size of samples for the experimental groups. The findings of the current study indicate that the use of these four design elements in the reported research in preclinical research is unacceptably low. Therefore, the results replicate previous studies and demonstrate once again that there is an ongoing problem in the experimental design of preclinical cardiovascular research.

      Strengths:

      This study selected four important design elements for study. The descriptions in the text and figures of this paper clearly demonstrate that the rate of use of all four design elements in the examined research articles was unacceptably low. The current study is important because it replicates previous studies and continues to call attention once again to serious problems in the design of preclinical studies, and the problem does not seem to lessen over time.

      Weaknesses:

      The current study uses both descriptive and inferential statistics extensively in describing the results. The descriptive statistics are clear and strong, demonstrating the main point of the study, that the use of these design elements is quite low, which may invalidate many of the reported studies. In addition, inferential statistical tests were used to compare the use of the four design elements against each other and to compare some of the journals. The use of inferential statistical tests appears weak because the wrong tests may have been used in some cases. However, the overall descriptive findings are very strong and make the major points of the study.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s comments and detailed feedback and their recognition of the importance of this work in replicating previous studies and calling attention to the problems in preclinical study design. In response to the reviewer’s suggestions, we have recalculated our inferential statistics. In place of our previous inferential statistics, we have used an alternative correction calculation for p-values (Holm-Bonferroni corrections) and used median-based linear model analyses and nonparametric Kruskal-Wallis tests that are more appropriate for analyzing this dataset. Our overall trends in results remain the same.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary

      This study replicates a 2017 study in which the authors reviewed papers for four key elements of rigor: inclusion of sex as a biological variable, randomization of subjects, blinding outcomes, and pre-specified sample size estimation. Here they screened 298 published papers for the four elements. Over a 10 year period, rigor (defined as including any of the 4 elements) failed to improve. They could not detect any differences across the journals they surveyed, nor across models. They focused primarily on cardiovascular disease, which both helps focus the research but limits the potential generalizability to a broader range of scientific investigation. There is no reason, however, to believe rigor is any better or worse in other fields, and hence this study is a good 'snapshot' of the progress of improving rigor over time.

      Strengths

      The authors randomly selected papers from leading journals, e.g., PNAS). Each paper was reviewed by 2 investigators. They pulled papers over a 10-year period, 2011 to 2021, and have a good sample of time over which to look for changes. The analysis followed generally accepted guidelines for a structured review.

      Weaknesses

      The authors did not use the exact same journals as they did in the 2017 study. This makes comparing the results complicated. Also, they pulled papers from 2011 to 2021, and hence cannot assess the impact of their own prior paper.

      The authors write "the proportion of studies including animals of both biological sexes generally increased between 2011 and 2021, though not significantly (R2= 0.0762, F(1,9)= 0.742, p= 0.411 (corrected p=8.2". This statement is not rigorous because the regression result is not statistically significant. Their data supports neither a claim of an increase nor a decrease over time. A similar problem repeats several times in the remainder of their results presentation.

      I think the Introduction and the Discussion are somewhat repetitive and the wording could be reduced.

      Impact and Context

      Lack of reproducibility remains an enormous problem in science, plaguing both basic and translational investigations. With the increased scrutiny on rigor, and requirements at NIH and other funding agencies for more rigor and transparency, one would expect to find increasing rigor, as evidenced by authors including more study design elements (SDEs) that are recommended. This review found no such change, and this is quite disheartening. The data implies that journals-editors and reviewers-will have to increase their scrutiny and standards applied to preclinical and basic studies. This work could also serve as a call to action to investigators outside of cardiovascular science to reflect on their own experiences and when planning future projects.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s insights and comments and recognition of our work contributing to the growing body of evidence on the lack of rigor in preclinical cardiovascular research study design. Regarding the weaknesses the reviewer noted; the referenced 2017 publication details a study by Ramirez et al, and was not conducted by our group. Our study aimed to expand upon their findings by using a more recent timeframe and an alternative list of highly respected cardiovascular research journals. We have now better clarified this distinction in the manuscript. We have also addressed our phrasing regarding the lack of statistical significance in the increase of the proportion of studies including animals of both sexes from 2011-2021.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Many of the methods in this study were strong or adequate. Although the descriptive statistics appear solid, there are significant problems that need to be addressed in the selection and use of inferential statistics.

      (1) One of the design elements that was studied was sample size estimation. This is usually done by a power analysis. The authors should consider what group size for the examined journals is adequate for their statistics to be valid. Or they could report the power of their studies to achieve a given meaningful difference.

      We thank the reviewer for this excellent observation. We unfortunately failed to conduct an a priori power analysis. Previous research (Gupta, et al. 2016) suggests that post-hoc power calculations should not be carried out after the study has been conducted. We acknowledge the importance of establishing a sufficient sample size to draw sound conclusions based on an adequate effect size, and we regret that we did not carry out the appropriate estimations. We are very appreciative of the reviewer’s suggestions and aim to implement such an appropriate study design element in future studies.

      Gupta KK, Attri JP, Singh A, Kaur H, Kaur G. Basic concepts for sample size calculation: Critical step for any clinical trials!. Saudi J Anaesth. 2016;10(3):328-331. doi:10.4103/1658-354X.174918

      (2) A Bonferroni correction was used extensively. Because of its use, the corrected p values often appear much too high. The Bonferroni test becomes much too conservative for more than 3 or 4 tests. I suggest using a different test for multiple comparisons.

      We thank the reviewer for their insightful suggestion. We have updated all p-values to reflect a Holm-Bonferroni correction instead. All p-values have been corrected and updated.

      (3) The use of the chi-square test for categorical data is appropriate. However, the t-test and multiple regression tests are designed for continuous variables. Here, it appears that they were used for the nominal variables (Table 1). For these nominal data, other nonparametric tests should be used.

      We thank the reviewer for this valuable insight. We have updated our statistical analysis methods and now use nonparametric Kruskal-Wallis tests to analyze differences in SDE reporting across journals, instead of chi-square test. Our reported p-values have been adjusted accordingly.

      (4) It is not clear exactly when each test is used. The stats section in Methods should better delineate when each test is used. In addition, it would be helpful to include the test used in the figure legends.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing up this important point. We have now updated the methods section to better delineate which tests were used, and also included the specific tests in the figure legends.

      (5) You will need to rewrite some sections of the text to reflect the changes due to changing your use of statistics.

      We have rewritten the sections of the text to reflect the changes in our use of statistics.

      Here are a few comments on the presentation.

      (1) Some of the figure legends are almost impossible to read. They are too congested.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We have edited the figure legends to make them more readable. We will also attach a pdf with the graphs to allow for easier formatting.

      (2) Also, is it possible to drop some of the panels in Figure 1?

      The panels in figure 1 have been rearranged to make them more readable. We believe that each panel provides valuable visual summaries of our data, that will aid readers in understanding our results.

      (3) It is not mandatory that values of y-axis on the graphs go up 100% (Figs 2 and 3). Using a maximum value of 100% clumps the lines visually. I suggest a max value on the y-axis of the graph of 50% or 60%. That will spread the lines better visually so differences can better be seen.

      We thank the reviewer for considering the experience of our paper’s readers. The y-axes of Figures 2 and 3 have been truncated to 50%. The trend lines in each Figure now appear more separated and differences can better be seen.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors did not use the exact same journals as they did in the 2017 study. This makes comparing the results complicated. Also, they pulled papers from 2011 to 2021, and hence cannot assess the impact of their own prior paper.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concern in maintaining consistency with the paper published by Ramirez, et al. in 2017. To clarify, our efforts focused on providing a replication study that expanded upon the original Ramirez publication - which we have no affiliation with. For our study, we used different academic journals than those used by Ramirez, et al, and also a different time-frame. We have updated the language in the manuscript to better-clarify the purpose and parameters of our study relative to the previous, unaffiliated, study.

      The authors write "the proportion of studies including animals of both biological sexes generally increased between 2011 and 2021, though not significantly (R2= 0.0762, F(1,9)= 0.742, p= 0.411 (corrected p=8.2". This statement is not rigorous because the regression result is not statistically significant. Their data supports neither a claim of an increase nor a decrease over time. A similar problem repeats several times in the remainder of their results presentation.

      Thank you for bringing this information to our attention. We agree with the concern regarding the statement, “the proportion of studies including animals of both biological sexes generally increased between 2011 and 2021, though not significantly (R2= 0.0762, F(1,9)= 0.742, p= 0.411 (corrected p=8.2.” We have rephrased the statement. Our updated Holm-Bonferroni corrected p-value is now noted in this more appropriately worded description of our results. Lastly, we have addressed the wording and redundancy seen in both the introduction and discussion and have made both more concise.

      I think the Introduction and the Discussion are somewhat repetitive and the wording could be reduced.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing this to our attention. We have addressed the redundancy across the Introduction and the Discussion. We have also altered the wording to reflect a more concise explanation of our study.

      The 'trends' are not statistically significant. A non-significant trend does not exist and no claim of a 'trend' is justified by the data.

      We thank the reviewer for this observation. We have updated the phrasing of ‘trends’ in all areas of the manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      Authors of this article have previously shown the involvement of the transcription factor Zinc finger homeobox-3 (ZFHX3) in the function of the circadian clock and the development/differentiation of the central circadian clock in the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) of the hypothalamus. Here, they show that ZFHX3 plays a critical role in the transcriptional regulation of numerous genes in the SCN. Using inducible knockout mice, they further demonstrate that the deletion Of Zfhx3 induces a phase advance of the circadian clock, both at the molecular and behavioral levels. 

      Strengths: 

      - Inducible deletion of Zfhx3 in adults 

      - Behavioral analysis 

      - Properly designed and analyzed ChIP-Seq and RNA-Seq supporting the conclusion of the behavioral analysis 

      Weaknesses: 

      - Further characterization of the disruption of the activity of the SCN is required. 

      (1) We thank the reviewer for their valuable inputs. Indeed, a comprehensive behavioral assessment of mice of this genotype was executed in Wilcox et al. ;2017 study. In Wilcox et al.; 2017, Figure 4, 6-h phase advance (jetlag) clearly showed faster reentrainment in ZFHX3-KO mice when compared to the controls.

      - The description of the controls needs some clarification. 

      (2) We agree with the reviewer and will modify the text to clearly describe the controls wherever mentioned.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      ZFHX3 is a transcription factor expressed in discrete populations of adult SCN and was shown by the authors previously to control circadian behavioral rhythms using either a dominant missense mutation in Zfhx3 or conditional null Zfhx3 mutation using the Ubc-Cre line (Wilcox et al., 2017). In the current manuscript, the authors assess the function of ZFHX3 by using a multi-omics approach including ChIPSeq in wildtype SCNs and RNAseq of SCN tissues from both wildtype and conditional null mice. RNAseq analysis showed a loss of oscillation in Bmal1 and changes in expression levels of other clock output genes. Moreover, a phase advance gene transcriptional profile using the TimeTeller algorithm suggests the presence of a regulatory network that could underlie the observed pattern of advanced activity onset in locomotor behavior in knockout mice. 

      In figure1, the authors identified the ZFHX3 bound sites using ChIPseq and compared the loci with other histone marks that occur at promoters, TSS, enhancers and intergenic regions. And the analysis broadly points to a role for ZFHX3 in transcriptional regulation. The vast majority of nearly 40000 peaks overlapped H3K4me3 and K27ac marks, active promoters which also included genes falling under the GO category circadian rhythms. However, no significant differential ZFHX3 bound peaks were detected between ZT3 and ZT15. In these experiments, it is not clear if and how the different ChIP samples (ZFHX3 and histone PTM ChIPs) were normalized/downsampled for analysis. Moreover, it seems that ZFHX3 binding or recruitment has little to do with whether the promoters are active.

      (3) We thank the reviewer for their valuable comment. Different ChIP samples. (ZFHX3 and histone PTM ChIPs) were treated in the same manner from preprocessing (quality control by FastQC, Trimming, Alignment to mm10 genome and Peak calling) using MACS2 as mentioned in Methods. The data was normalized using bamCoverage tools and bigwig files were generated for visual inspection using USCS Genome Browser. These additional details will be added to Methods. Finally, BEDTools was employed to study overlapping peaks between ZFHX3 and histone PTMs.

      We agree that, alone, the current data does not make any claim for ZFHX3 being crucial for promoter to be active. Our data clearly suggests that a vast majority of ZFHX3 genomic binding in the SCN was observed at active promoters marked by H3K4me3 and H3K27ac and potentially regulating gene transcription. 

      Based on a enrichment of ARNT domains next to K4Me3 and K27ac PTMs, the authors propose a model where the core-clock TFs and ZFHX3 interact. If the authors develop other assays beyond just predictions to test their hypothesis, it would strengthen the argument for role in circadian transcription in the SCN. It would be important in this context to perform a ChIP-seq experiment for ZFHX3 in the knockout animal (described from Figure 2 onwards) to eliminate the possibility of non-specific enrichment of signal from "open chromatin'. Alternatively, a ChIPseq analysis for BMAL1 or CLOCK could also strengthen this argument to identify the sites co-occupied by ZFHX3 and core-clock TFs. 

      (4a) We agree that follow-up experiments such as BMAL1/CLOCK ChIPseq suggested by the reviewer will further confirm the proposed interaction of ZFHX3 with core-clock TFs. However, this is beyond the scope of the current study. 

      (4b) Again, conducting complementary ChIPseq in ZFHX3 knockout mice will strengthen the findings, but conducting TF-ChIPseq in a specific brain tissue such as the SCN (unlike peripheral tissues such as liver) does not only warrant use of multiple animals per sample but is also technically challenging and time-consuming to ensure specificity of the sample. For these reasons, datasets such as ours on the SCN are uncommon. Furthermore, in this particular context, we are certain that, based on current dataset, the ZFHX3 peaks (narrow) we observed were well-defined and met the specified statistical criteria mitigating any risk of signal arising from non-specific enrichment from open-chromatin regions. 

      Next, they compared locomotor activity rhythms in floxed mice with or without tamoxifen treatment. As reported before in Wilcox et al 2017, the loss of ZFHX3 led to a shorter free running period and reduced amplitude and earlier onset of activity. Overall, the behavioral data in Figure 2 and supplementary figure 2 has been reported before and are not novel.

      (5) We recognise that a detailed circadian behavior assessment from adult mice lacking ZFHX3 has been conducted previously by Nolan lab (Wilcox et al; 2017). In the current study, however, we used a separate cohort of mice, to focus on the behavioral advance noted in 24-h LD cycle and generate a more refined assessment. Importantly, these mice were also used for transcriptomic studies as detailed in Figure 3, which we consider to be a positive feature of our experimental design: behavior and molecular analyses were performed on the same animals. 

      Next, the authors performed RNAseq at 4hr intervals on wildtype and knockout animals maintained in light/dark cycles to determine the impact of loss of ZFHX3. Overall transcriptomic analysis indicated changes in gene expression in nearly 36% of expressed genes, with nearly half being upregulated while an equal fraction was downregulated. Pathways affected included mostly neureopeptide neurotransmitter pathways. Surprisingly, there was no correlation between the direction in change in expression and TF binding since nearly all the sites were bound by ZFHX3 and the active histone PTMs. The ChIP-seq experiment for ZFHX3 in the UBC-Cre+Tam mice again could help resolve the real targets of ZFHX3 and the transcriptional state in knockout animals. 

      (6) We agree with the reviewer that most of the differentially expressed genes showed ZFHX3 binding at active promoter sites. That said, the current dataset is in line with recently published ZFHX3-CHIPseq data by Baca et al; 2024 [PMID: 38412861] in human neural stem cells and Hu et al; 2024 [PMID: 38871709] in human prostate cancer cells that clearly suggests ZFHX3 binds at active promoters and act as chromatin remodellers/mediators that modulate gene transcription depending on the accessory TFs assembled at target genes. Therefore, finding no correlation in the direction of change in expression is not striking.  

      To determine the fraction of rhythmic transcripts, Using dryR, the authors categorise the rhythmic transcriptome into modules that include genes that lose rhythmicity in the KO, gain rhythmicity in the KO or remain unaffected or partially affected. The analysis indicates that a large fraction of the rhythmic transcriptome is affected in the KO model. However, among core-clock genes only Bmal1 expression is affected showing a complete loss of rhythm. The authors state a decrease in Clock mRNA expression (line 294) but the panel figure 4A does not show this data. Instead it depicts the loss in Avp expression - {{ misstated in line 321 ( we noted severe loss in 24-h rhythm for crucial SCN neuropeptides such as Avp (Fig. 3a).}} 

      (7a) Indeed, among the core-clock genes rhythmic expression is lost after ZFHX3 knockout only for Bmal1. However, given the mice were rhythmic (as assessed by wheel-running activity) in LD conditions, the observed 24-h gene expression rhythm in the majority of core-clock genes (Pers and Crys)  is consistent with behavior data,  and suggests towards a molecular clock with plausible scenarios as explained at line 439. That said, the unique and well-defined changes (amplitude and phase) observed as demonstrated in Figure 5 highlights a model in which ZFHX3 exerts differential control, for example in case of Per2 noted advance in molecular rhythm (~2-h), but no such change in Cry, presents an opportunity to delineate further the regulation of TTFL genes. 

      (7b) Line 294 states- loss of Bmal1 rhythm and reduction in Clock mRNA . Figure 4a is in support of former. We shall revise the text for clarity. 

      (7c) As rightly pointed out by the reviewer, line 321 is referring to loss of Avp expression and we shall correct the typo by replacing “Figure 3a to 4a”. Thank you.  

      However, core-clock genes such as Pers and Crys show minor or no change in expression patterns while Per2 and Per3 show a ~2hr phase advance. While these could only weakly account for the behavioral phase advance, the authors used TimeTeller to assess circadian phase in wildtype and ZFHX3 deficient mice. This approach clearly indicated that while the clock is not disrupted in the knockout animals, the phase advance can be correctly predicted from a network of gene expression patterns. 

      Strengths: 

      The authors use a multiomic strategy in order to reveal the role of the ZFHX3 transcription factor with a combination of TF and histone PTM ChIPseq, time-resolved RNAseq from wildtype and knockout mice and modeling the transcriptomic data using TimeTeller. The RNAseq experiments are nicely controlled and the analysis of the data indicates a clear impact on gene-expression levels in the knockout mice and the presence of a regulatory network that could underlie the advanced activity onset behavior. 

      Weaknesses: 

      It is not clear whether ZFHX3 has a direct role in any of the processes and seems to be a general factor that marks H3K4me3 and K27ac marked chromatin. Why it would specifically impact the core-clock TTFL clock gene expression or indeed daily gene expression rhythms is not clear either. Details for treatment of different ChIP samples (ZFHX3 and histone PTM ChIPs) on data normalization for analysis are needed. The loss of complete rhythmicity of Avp and other neuropeptides or indeed other TFs could instead account for the transcriptional deregulation noted in the knockout mice.

      (8) We thank the reviewer for the constructive feedback.  The current data suggests ZFHX3 acts as a mediating factor, occupying targeted active promoter sites and regulating gene expression by partnering with other key TFs in the SCN. Please see point 7 for clarification. The binding sites of ZFHX3 clearly showed enrichment for E-box(CACGTG) motif bound by CLOCK/BMAL1 along with binding sites for key SCN-specific TFs such as RFX (please see Supplementary Fig1). Our data thereby shows that it affects both core-clock and clock output genes (at varied levels) thereby exercising a pervasive control over the SCN transcriptome. 

      For treatment of ChIP samples please see point 4. We followed ENCODE guidelines strictly.

    1. Author response:

      We sincerely appreciate the insightful feedback and constructive suggestions provided by the reviewers. We thank reviewers for their valuable support in improving our manuscript.

      In response to the public reviews raised by reviewers, we plan to make the following revisions:

      (1) Most metadata have been rectified through collaborative review of original literature sources rather than automated processes. We intend to incorporate a detailed discussion on this matter in the revised manuscript.

      (2) We will include a corrections table for entries to provide clarity and transparency regarding any amendments made.

      (3) Additional references will be included to elucidate the rationale behind the selection of interact residues definition methods and the set threshold. The threshold is not fixed. In fact, we utilized a 5Å cutoff in current version, listing all residues with distances less than 5Å alongside the corresponding distances. The researchers could screen the residues through distance according to their custom cutoff. To offer researchers flexibility, we will also provide interact residues and corresponding distances with higher cutoffs for custom screening. These enhancements will be detailed in the revised manuscript.

      (4)We acknowledge the importance of expanding the database to include a wider range of experimental information and complexes with diverse target sizes. Regrettably, immediate updates to address these limitations are not feasible at this time. Thus, we will give an illustration in the later detail response to reviewers.

    1. Author response:

      We very much appreciate the reviewers’ and editor’s overall positive responses to our manuscript "Evolution of lateralized gustation in nematodes".

      Reviewer #1:

      The mechanism of lsy-6-independent establishment of ASEL/R asymmetry in P. pacificus remains uncharacterized. 

      We thank the reviewer for recognizing the novel contributions of our work in revealing the existence of alternative pathways for establishing neuronal lateral asymmetry despite the absence of the lsy-6 miRNA in a divergent nematode species. We are certainly encouraged now to search for genetic factors that abolish asymmetric expression of gcy-22.3.

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) The authors observe only weak attraction of C. elegans to NaCl. These results raise the question of whether the weak attraction observed is the result of the prior salt environment experienced by the worms. More generally, this study does not address how prior exposure to gustatory cues shapes gustatory responses in P. pacificus. Is salt sensing in P. pacificus subject to the same type of experience-dependent modulation as salt sensing in C. elegans? 

      Proposed revision: For our live imaging experiments, we had not considered if starved P. pacificus animals in the presence of salt may exhibit responses different from a well-fed state. However, we will venture to address the effect of experience-dependent modulation in P. pacificus chemotaxis behavior using NH4Cl.

      (2) A key finding of this paper is that the Ppa-CHE-1 transcription factor is expressed in the Ppa-AFD neurons as well as the Ppa-ASE neurons, despite the fact that Ce-CHE-1 is expressed specifically in Ce-ASE. However, additional verification of Ppa-AFD neuron identity is required. Based on the image shown in the manuscript, it is difficult to unequivocally identify the second pair of CHE-1-positive head neurons as the Ppa-AFD neurons. Ppa-AFD neuron identity could be verified by confocal imaging of the CHE-1-positive neurons, co-expression of Ppa-che-1p::GFP with a likely AFD reporter, thermotaxis assays with Ppa-che-1 mutants, and/or calcium imaging from the putative Ppa-AFD neurons. 

      We are happy to provide additional evidence to confirm Ppa-AFD neuron identity since the expression of Ppa-CHE-1 in non-ASE amphid neurons is one of the major differences between the two nematode specie

      Proposed revision: We will provide results showing the Ppa-ttx-1::gfp reporter expression in finger-like neuronal endings and Ppa-_TTX-1::ALFA co-localization with _Ppa-che-1::gfp in the putative AFD neurons and discuss the possible role of Ppa-CHE-1 in AFD differentiation. We attempted to obtain AFD markers using several reporter strains. However, Ppa-gcy-8.1p::gfp(csuEx101) (PPA24212) showed no expression while Ppa-gcy-8.2p::gfp(csuEx100) (PPA41407) showed only expression in pharyngeal cells.

      (4) The authors show that silencing Ppa-ASE has a dramatic effect on salt chemotaxis behavior. However, these data lack control with histamine-treated wild-type animals, with the result that the phenotype of Ppa-ASE-silenced animals could result from exposure to histamine dihydrochloride. This is an especially important control in the context of salt sensing, where histamine dihydrochloride could alter behavioral responses to other salts. 

      Proposed revision: Thank you for noticing this oversight. The control for histamine-treated wild-type worms in the Ppa-ASE silencing experiments was inadvertently left out in the original submission. Because the HisCl transgene is on a randomly segregating transgene array, we have scored worms with and without the transgene expressing the co-injection marker (Ppa-egl-20p::rfp expressed in the tail) to show that the presence of the transgene is necessary for the knockdown of NH4Br attraction.

      We will also address most of the other more minor suggestions and clarifications sought by the reviewers.

    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this paper Kawasaki et al describe a regulatory role for the PIWI/piRNA pathway in rRNA regulation in Zebrafish. This regulatory role was uncovered through a screen for gonadogenesis defective mutants, which identified a mutation in the meioc gene, a coiled-coil germ granule protein. Loss of this gene leads to redistribution of Piwil1 from germ granules to the nucleolus, resulting in silencing of rRNA transcription.

      Strengths:

      Most of the experimental data provided in this paper is compelling. It is clear that in the absence of meioc, PiwiL1 translocates in to the nucleolus and results in down regulation of rRNA transcription. the genetic compensation of meioc mutant phenotypes (both organismal and molecular) through reduction in PiwiL1 levels are evidence for a direct role for PiwiL1 in mediating the phenotypes of meioc mutant.

      Weaknesses:

      Questions remain on the mechanistic details by which PiwiL1 mediated rRNA down regulation, and whether this is a function of Piwi in an unperturbed/wildtype setting. There is certainly some evidence provided in support of the natural function for piwi in regulating rRNA transcription (figure 5A+5B). However, the de-enrichment of H3K9me3 in the heterozygous (Figure 6F) is very modest and in my opinion not convincingly different relative to the control provided. It is certainly possible that PiwiL1 is regulating levels through cleavage of nascent transcripts. Another aspect I found confounding here is the reduction in rRNA small RNAs in the meioc mutant; I would have assumed that the interaction of PiwiL1 with the rRNA is mediated through small RNAs but the reduction in numbers do not support this model. But perhaps it is simply a redistribution of small RNAs that is occurring. Finally, the ability to reduce PiwiL1 in the nucleolus through polI inhibition with actD and BMH-21 is surprising. What drives the accumulation of PiwiL1 in the nucleolus then if in the meioc mutant there is less transcription anyway?

      Despite the weaknesses outlined, overall I find this paper to be solid and valuable, providing evidence for a consistent link between PIWI systems and ribosomal biogenesis. Their results are likely to be of interest to people in the community, and provide tools for further elucidating the reasons for this link.

      The amount of cytoplasmic rRNA in piwi+/- was increased by 26% on average (figure 5A+5B), the amount of ChiP-qPCR of H3K9 was decreased by about 26% (Figure 6F), and ChiP-qPCR of Piwil1 was decreased by 35% (Figure 6G), so we don't think there is a big discrepancy. On the other hand, the amount of ChiP-qPCR of H3K9 in meioc<sup>mo/mo</sup> was increased by about 130% (Figure 6F), while ChiP-qPCR of Piwil1 was increased by 50%, so there may be a mechanism for H3K9 regulation of Meioc that is not mediated by Piwil1. As for what drives the accumulation of Piwil1 in the nucleolus, although we have found that Piwil1 has affinity for rRNA (Fig. 6A), we do not know what recruits it. Significant increases in the 18-35nt small RNA of 18S, 28S rRNA and R2 were not detected in meioc<sup>mo/mo</sup> testes enriched for 1-8 cell spermatogonia, compared with meioc<sup>+/mo</sup> testes. The nucleolar localization of Piwil1 has revealed in this study, which will be a new topic for future research.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors report that Meioc is required to upregulate rRNA transcription and promote differentiation of spermatogonial stem cells in zebrafish. The authors show that upregulated protein synthesis is required to support spermatogonial stem cells' differentiation into multi-celled cysts of spermatogonia. Coiled coil protein Meioc is required for this upregulated protein synthesis and for increasing rRNA transcription, such that the Meioc knockout accumulates 1-2 cell spermatogonia and fails to produce cysts with more than 8 spermatogonia. The Meioc knockout exhibits continued transcriptional repression of rDNA. Meioc interacts with and sequesters Piwil1 to the cytoplasm. Loss of Meioc increases Piwil1 localization to the nucleolus, where Piwil1 interacts with transcriptional silencers that repress rRNA transcription.

      Strengths:

      This is a fundamental study that expands our understanding of how ribosome biogenesis contributes to differentiation and demonstrates that zebrafish Meioc plays a role in this process during spermatogenesis. This work also expands our evolutionary understanding of Meioc and Ythdc2's molecular roles in germline differentiation. In mouse, the Meioc knockout phenocopies the Ythdc2 knockout, and studies thus far have indicated that Meioc and Ythdc2 act together to regulate germline differentiation. Here, in zebrafish, Meioc has acquired a Ythdc2-independent function. This study also identifies a new role for Piwil1 in directing transcriptional silencing of rDNA.

      Weaknesses:

      There are limited details on the stem cell-enriched hyperplastic testes used as a tool for mass spec experiments, and additional information is needed to fully evaluate the mass spec results. What mutation do these testes carry? Does this protein interact with Meioc in the wildtype testes? How could this mutation affect the results from the Meioc immunoprecipitation?

      Stem cell-enriched hyperplastic testes came from wild-type adult sox17::GFP transgenic zebrafish. Sperm were found in these hyperplastic testes, and when stem cells were transplanted, they self-renewed and differentiated into sperm. It is not known if the hyperplasias develop due to a genetic variant in the line. We will add the following comment.

      “The stem cell-enriched hyperplastic testes, which are occasionally found in adult wildtype zebrafish, contain cells at all stages of spermatogenesis. Hyperplasia-derived SSCs self-renewed and differentiated in the same manner as SSCs of normal testes in transplants of aggregates mixed with normal testicular cells.”

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The paper describes the molecular pathway to regulate germ cell differentiation in zebrafish through ribosomal RNA biogenesis. Meioc sequesters Piwil1, a Piwi homolog, which suppresses the transcription of the 45S pre-rDNA by the formation of heterochromatin, to the perinuclear bodies. The key results are solid and useful to researchers in the field of germ cell/meiosis as well as RNA biosynthesis and chromatin.

      Strengths:

      The authors nicely provided the molecular evidence on the antagonism of Meioc to Piwil1 in the rRNA synthesis, which supported by the genetic evidence that the inability of the meioc mutant to enter meiosis is suppressed by the piwil1 heterozygosity.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Although the paper provides very convincing evidence for the authors' claim, the scientific contents are poorly written and incorrectly described. As a result, it is hard to read the text. Checking by scientific experts would be highly recommended. For example, on line 38, "the global translation activity is generally [inhibited]", is incorrect and, rather, a sentence like "the activity is lowered relative to other cells" is more appropriate here. See minor points for more examples.

      Thank you for pointing that out. I will correct the parts pointed out.

      (2) In some figures, it is hard for readers outside of zebrafish meiosis to evaluate the results without more explanation and drawing.

      We will refine Figure 1A and add schema of spermatogonia culture system in a supplemental figure. 

      (3) Figure 1E, F, cycloheximide experiments: Please mention the toxicity of the concentration of the drug in cell proliferation and viability.

      When testicular tissue culture was performed at 0.1, 1, 10, 100, 250, and 500mM, abnormal strong OP-puro signals including nuclei were found in cells at 10mM or more. We will add the results in the Supplemental Material. In addition, at 1mM, growth was perturbed in fast-growing 32≤-cell cysts of spermatogonia, but not in 1-4-cell spermatogonia, as described in L122-125.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      By way of background, the Jiang lab has previously shown that loss of the type II BMP receptor Punt (Put) from intestinal progenitors (ISCs and EBs) caused them to differentiate into EBs, with a concomitant loss of ISCs (Tian and Jiang, eLife 2014). The mechanism by which this occurs was activation of Notch in Put-deficient progenitors. How Notch was upregulated in Put-deficient ISCs was not established in this prior work. In the current study, the authors test whether a very low level of Dl was responsible. But co-depletion of Dl and Put led to a similar phenotype as depletion of Put alone. This result suggested that Dl was not the mechanism. They next investigate genetic interactions between BMP signaling and Numb, an inhibitor of Notch signaling. Prior work from Bardin, Schweisguth and other labs has shown that Numb is not required for ISC self-renewal. However the authors wanted to know whether loss of both the BMP signal transducer Mad and Numb would cause ISC loss. This result was observed for RNAi depletion from progenitors and for mad, numb double mutant clones. Of note, ISC loss was observed in 40% of mad, numb double mutant clones, whereas 60% of these clones had an ISC. They then employed a two-color tracing system called RGT to look at the outcome of ISC divisions (asymmetric (ISC/EB) or symmetric (ISC/ISC or EB/EB)). Control clones had 69%, 15% and 16%, respectively, whereas mad, numb double mutant clones had much lower ISC/ISC (11%) and much higher EB/EB (37%). They conclude that loss of Numb in moderate BMP loss of function mutants increased symmetric differentiation which lead caused ISC loss. They also reported that Numb<sup>15</sup> and numb<sup>4</sup> clones had a moderate but significant increase in ISC-lacking clones compared to control clones, supporting the model that Numb plays a role in ISC maintenance. Finally, they investigated the relevance of these observation during regeneration. After bleomycin treatment, there was a significant increase in ISC-lacking clones and a significant decrease in clone size in numb<sup>4</sup> and Numb<sup>15</sup> clones compared to control clones. Because bleomycin treatment has been shown to cause variation in BMP ligand production, the authors interpret the numb clone under bleomycin results as demonstrating an essential role of Numb in ISC maintenance during regeneration.

      Strengths:

      (i) Most data is quantified with statistical analysis

      (ii) Experiments have appropriate controls and large numbers of samples

      (iii) Results demonstrate an important role of Numb in maintaining ISC number during regeneration and a genetic interaction between Mad and Numb during homeostasis.

      Weaknesses:

      (i) No quantification for Fig. 1

      Thank you for your suggestion. Quantification of Fig.1 will be added.  

      (ii) The premise is a bit unclear. Under homeostasis, strong loss of BMP (Put) leads to loss of ISCs, presumably regardless of Numb level (which was not tested). But moderate loss of BMP (Mad) does not show ISC loss unless Numb is also reduced. I am confused as to why numb does not play a role in Put mutants. Did the authors test whether concomitant loss of Put and Numb leads to even more ISC loss than Put-mutation alone.

      Thank you for your comment. We have tested the genetic interaction between punt and numb using punt RNAi and numb RNAi driven by esg<sup>ts</sup>. According to the results in this study and our previously published data, punt mutant clone or esg<sup>ts</sup>> punt RNAi could induce a rapid loss of ISC (whin 8 days). We did not observe further enhancement of stem cell loss phenotype caused punt RNAi by numb RNAi.

      (iii) I think that the use of the word "essential" is a bit strong here. Numb plays an important role but in either during homeostasis or regeneration, most numb clones or mad, numb double mutant clones still have ISCs. Therefore, I think that the authors should temper their language about the role of Numb in ISC maintenance.

      Thank you. We will revise the language.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work assesses the genetic interaction between the Bmp signaling pathway and the factor Numb, which can inhibit Notch signalling. It follows up on the previous studies of the group (Tian, Elife, 2014; Tian, PNAS, 2014) regarding BMP signaling in controlling stem cell fate decision as well as on the work of another group (Sallé, EMBO, 2017) that investigated the function of Numb on enteroendocrine fate in the midgut. This is an important study providing evidence of a Numb-mediated back up mechanism for stem cell maintenance.

      Strengths:

      (1) Experiments are consistent with these previous publications while also extending our understanding of how Numb functions in the ISC.

      (2) Provides an interesting model of a "back up" protection mechanism for ISC maintenance.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Aspects of the experiments could be better controlled or annotated:

      (a) As they "randomly chose" the regions analyzed, it would be better to have all from a defined region (R4 or R2, for example) or to at least note the region as there are important regional differences for some aspects of midgut biology.

      Thank you. Since we mainly focus on region 4, we have added the clarification in the manuscript.

      (b) It is not clear to me why MARCM clones were induced and then flies grown at 18{degree sign}C? It would help to explain why they used this unconventional protocol.

      To avoid spontaneous clone, we kept the flies under 18°C.

      (2) There are technical limitations with trying to conclude from double-knockdown experiments in the ISC lineage, such as those in Figure 1 where Dl and put are both being knocked down: depending on how fast both proteins are depleted, it may be that only one of them (put, for example) is inactivated and affects the fate decision prior to the other one (Dl) being depleted. Therefore, it is difficult to definitively conclude that the decision is independent of Dl ligand.

      In our hand, Dl-RNAi is very effective and exhibited loss of N pathway activity as determined by the N pathway reporter Su(H)-lacZ (Fig. 1D). Therefore, the ectopic Su(H)-lacZ expression in Punt Dl double RNAi (fig. 1E) is unlikely due to residual Dl expression. Nevertheless, we will change the statement “BMP signaling blocks ligand-independent N activity” to” Loss of BMP signaling results in ectopic N pathway activity even when Dl is depleted”

      (3) Additional quantification of many phenotypes would be desired.

      (a) It would be useful to see esg-GFP cells/total cells and not just field as the density might change (2E for example).

      We focused on R4 region for quantification where the cell density did not exhibit apparent change in different experimental groups. In addition, we have examined many guts for quantification. It is unlikely that the difference in the esg+ cell number is caused by change in cell density.

      (b) Similarly, for 2F and 2G, it would be nice to see the % of ISC/ total cell and EB/total cell and not only per esgGFP+ cell.

      Unfortunately, we didn’t have the suggested quantification. However, we believe that quantification of the percentage of ISC or EB among all progenitor cells, as we did here, provides a faithful measurement of the self-renewal status of each experimental group.

      (c) Fig1: There is no quantification - specifically it would be interesting to know how many esg+ are su(H)lacZ positive in Put- Dl- condition compared to WT or Put- alone. What is the n?

      Quantification will be added.

      (d) Fig2: Pros + cells are not seen in the image? Are they all DllacZ+?

      Anti-Pros and anti-E(spl)mβ-CD2 were stained in the same channel (magenta).  Pros+ is nuclear dot-like staining, while CD2 outlined the cell membrane of EB cell.

      (e) Fig3: it would be nice to have the size clone quantification instead of the distribution between groups of 2 cell 3 cells 4 cell clones.

      Thank you for your suggestion. In this study, we have quantified the clone size of each clone and calculated the average size for each genotype. However, the frequency distribution analysis was chosen because it highlights the significance of the clone size differences among genotypes.

      (f) How many times were experiments performed?

      All experiments are performed 3 times.

      (4) The authors do not comment on the reduction of clone size in DSS treatment in Figure 6K. How do they interpret this? Does it conflict with their model of Bleo vs DSS?

      numb<sup>4</sup> clone containing guts treated with DSS exhibited a slight reduction of clone size, evident by a higher percentage of 2-cell clones and lower percentage of > 8 cell clones. This reduction is less significant in guts containing numb<sup>15</sup> clones. However, the percentage of Dl<sup>+</sup>-containing clones is similar between DSS and mock-treated guts. It is possible that ISC proliferation is lightly reduced due to numb<sup>4</sup> mutation or the genetic background.

      (5) There is probably a mistake on sentence line 314 -316 "Indeed, previous studies indicate that endogenous Numb was not undetectable by Numb antibodies that could detect Numb expression in the nervous system".

      We will make a correction of the sentence.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors provide an in-depth analysis of the function of Numb in adult Drosophila midgut. Based on RNAi combinations and double mutant clonal analyses, they propose that Numb has a function in inhibiting Notch pathway to maintain intestinal stem cells, and is a backup mechanism with BMP pathway in maintaining midgut stem cell mediated homeostasis.

      Strengths:

      Overall, this is a carefully constructed series of experiments, and the results and statistical analyses provides believable evidence that Numb has a role, albeit weak compared to other pathways, in sustaining ISC and in promoting regeneration especially after damage by bleomycin, which may damage enterocytes and therefore disrupt BMP pathway more. The results overall support their claim.

      The data are highly coherent, and support a genetic function of Numb, in collaborating with BMP signaling, to maintain the number and proliferative function of ISCs in adult midguts. The authors used appropriate and sophisticated genetic tools of double RNAi, mutant clonal analysis and dual marker stem cell tracing approaches to ensure the results are reproducible and consistent. The statistical analyses provide confidence that the phenotypic changes are reliable albeit weaker than many other mutants previously studied.

      Weaknesses:

      In the absence of Numb itself, the midgut has a weak reduction of ISC number (Fig. 3 and 5), as well as weak albeit not statistically significant reduction of ISC clone size/proliferation. I think the authors published similar experiments with BMP pathway mutants. The mad<sup>1-2</sup> allele used here as stated below may not be very representative of other BMP pathway mutants. Therefore, it could be beneficial to compare the number of ISC number and clone sizes between other BMP experiments to provide the readers with a clearer picture of how these two pathways individually contribute (stronger/weaker effects) to the ISC number and gut homeostasis.

      Thank you for your comment. We have tested other components of BMP pathway in our previously study (Tian et al., 2014). More complete loss of BMP signaling (for example, Put clones, Put RNAi, Tkv/Sax double mutant clones or double RNAi) resulted in ISC loss regardless of the status of numb, suggesting a more predominant role of BMP signaling in ISC self-renewal compared with Numb. We speculate that the weak stem cell loss phenotype associated with numb mutant clones in otherwise wild type background could be due to fluctuation of BMP signaling in homeostatic guts.

      The main weakness of this manuscript is the analysis of the BMP pathway components, especially the mad<sup>1-2</sup> allele. The mad RNAi and mad<sup>1-2</sup> alleles (P insertion) are supposed to be weak alleles and that might be suitable for genetic enhancement assays here together with numb RNAi. However, the mad<sup>1-2</sup> allele, and sometimes the mad RNAi, showed weakly increased ISC clone size. This is kind of counter-intuitive that they should have a similar ISC loss and ISC clone size reduction.

      We used mad<sup>1-2</sup> and mad RNAi here to test the genetic interaction with numb because our previous studies showed that partial loss of BMP signaling under these conditions did not cause stem cell loss, therefore, may provide a sensitized background to determine the role of Numb in ISC self-renewal. The increased proliferation of ISC/ clone size in associated with mad<sup>1-2</sup> and mad RNAi is due to the fact that the reduction of BMP signaling in either EC or EB will non-autonomously induce stem cell proliferation. However, in mad numb double mutant clones, there was a reduction in clone size, which correlated with loss of ISC.

      A much stronger phenotype was observed when numb mutants were subject to treatment of tissue damaging agents Bleomycin, which causes damage in different ways than DSS. Bleomycin as previously shown to be causing mainly enterocyte damage,  and therefore disrupt BMP signaling from ECs more likely. Therefore, this treatment together with loss of numb led to a highly significant reduction of ISC in clones and reduction of clone size/proliferation. One improvement is that it is not clear whether the authors discussed the nature of the two numb mutant alleles used in this study and the comparison to the strength of the RNAi allele. Because the phenotypes are weak and more variable, the use of specific reagents is important.

      Numb<sup>15</sup> is a null allele, and the nature of numb<sup>4</sup> has not been elucidated. According to Domingos, P.M. et al., numb<sup>15</sup> induced a more severe phenotype than numb<sup>4</sup> did. Consistently, we also found that more numb<sup>15</sup> mutant clones were void of stem cell than numb<sup>4</sup>.

      Furthermore, the use of possible activating alleles of either or both pathways to test genetic enhancement or synergistic activation will provide strong support for the claims.

      Activation of BMP (Tkv<sup>CA</sup>) also induced stem cell tumor (Tian et al., 2014), which is not suitable for synergistic activation experiment.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This study offers a useful treatment of how the population of excitatory and inhibitory neurons integrates principles of energy efficiency in their coding strategies. The analysis provides a comprehensive characterisation of the model, highlighting the structured connectivity between excitatory and inhibitory neurons. However, the manuscript provides an incomplete motivation for parameter choices. Furthermore, the work is insufficiently contextualized within the literature, and some of the findings appear overlapping and incremental given previous work.

      We are genuinely grateful to the Editors and Reviewers for taking time to provide extremely valuable suggestions and comments, which will help us to substantially improve our paper. We decided to do our very best to implement all suggestions, as detailed in the point-by-point rebuttal letter below. We feel that our paper has improved considerably as a result. 

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: Koren et al. derive and analyse a spiking network model optimised to represent external signals using the minimum number of spikes. Unlike most prior work using a similar setup, the network includes separate populations of excitatory and inhibitory neurons. The authors show that the optimised connectivity has a like-to-like structure, leading to the experimentally observed phenomenon of feature competition. They also characterise the impact of various (hyper)parameters, such as adaptation timescale, ratio of excitatory to inhibitory cells, regularisation strength, and background current. These results add useful biological realism to a particular model of efficient coding. However, not all claims seem fully supported by the evidence. Specifically, several biological features, such as the ratio of excitatory to inhibitory neurons, which the authors claim to explain through efficient coding, might be contingent on arbitrary modelling choices. In addition, earlier work has already established the importance of structured connectivity for feature competition. A clearer presentation of modelling choices, limitations, and prior work could improve the manuscript.

      Thanks for these insights and for this summary of our work.  

      Major comments:

      (1) Much is made of the 4:1 ratio between excitatory and inhibitory neurons, which the authors claim to explain through efficient coding. I see two issues with this conclusion: (i) The 4:1 ratio is specific to rodents; humans have an approximate 2:1 ratio (see Fang & Xia et al., Science 2022 and references therein); (ii) the optimal ratio in the model depends on a seemingly arbitrary choice of hyperparameters, particularly the weighting of encoding error versus metabolic cost. This second concern applies to several other results, including the strength of inhibitory versus excitatory synapses. While the model can, therefore, be made consistent with biological data, this requires auxiliary assumptions.

      We now describe better the ratio of numbers of E and I neurons found in real data, as suggested. The first submission already contained an analysis of how the optimal ratio of E vs I neuron numbers depends in our model on the relative weighting of the loss of E and I neurons and on the relative weighting of the encoding error vs the metabolic cost in the loss function (see Fig. 7E). We revised the text on page 12 describing Fig. 7E. 

      To allow readers to form easily a clear idea of how the weighting of the error vs the cost may influence the optimal network configuration, we now present how optimal parameters depend on the weighting in a systematic way, by always including this type of analysis when studying all other model parameters (time constants of single E and I neurons, noise intensity, metabolic constant, ratio of mean I-I to E-I connectivity). These results are shown on the Supplementary Fig. S4 A-D and H, and we comment briefly on each of them in Results sections (pages 9, 10, 11 and 12) that analyze each of these parameters.  

      Following this Reviewer’s comment, we now included a joint analysis of network performance relative to the ratio of E-I neuron numbers and the ratio of mean I-I to E-I connectivity (Fig. 7J). We found a positive correlation between optima values of these two ratios. This implies that a lower ratio of E-I neuron numbers, such as a 2:1 ratio in human cortex mentioned by the reviewer, predicts lower optimal ratio of I-I to E-I connectivity and thus weaker inhibition in the network. We made sure that this finding is suitably described in revision (page 13).

      (2) A growing body of evidence supports the importance of structured E-I and I-E connectivity for feature selectivity and response to perturbations. For example, this is a major conclusion from the Oldenburg paper (reference 62 in the manuscript), which includes extensive modelling work. Similar conclusions can be found in work from Znamenskiy and colleagues (experiments and spiking network model; bioRxiv 2018, Neuron 2023 (ref. 82)), Sadeh & Clopath (rate network; eLife, 2020), and Mackwood et al. (rate network with plasticity; eLife, 2021). The current manuscript adds to this evidence by showing that (a particular implementation of) efficient coding in spiking networks leads to structured connectivity. The fact that this structured connectivity then explains perturbation responses is, in the light of earlier findings, not new.

      We agree that the main contribution of our manuscript in this respect is to show how efficient coding in spiking networks can lead to structured connectivity implementing lateral inhibition similar to that proposed in the recent studies mentioned by the Reviewer. We apologize if this was not clear enough in the previous version. We streamlined the presentation to make it clearer in revision.  We nevertheless think it useful to report the effects of perturbations within this network because these results give information about how lateral inhibition works in our network. Thus, we kept presenting it in the revised version, although we de-emphasized and simplified its presentation. We now give more emphasis to the novelty of the derivation of this connectivity rule from the principles of efficient coding (pages 4 and 6). We also describe better (page 8) what the specific results of our simulated perturbation experiments add to the existing literature.

      (3) The model's limitations are hard to discern, being relegated to the manuscript's last and rather equivocal paragraph. For instance, the lack of recurrent excitation, crucial in neural dynamics and computation, likely influences the results: neuronal time constants must be as large as the target readout (Figure 4), presumably because the network cannot integrate the signal without recurrent excitation. However, this and other results are not presented in tandem with relevant caveats.

      We improved the Limitations paragraph in Discussion, and also anticipated caveats in tandem with results when needed, as suggested. 

      We now mention the assumption of equal time constants between the targets and readouts in the Abstract. 

      We now added the analysis of the network performance and dynamics as a function of the time constant of the target (t<sub>x</sub>) to the Supplementary Fig S5 (C-E). These results are briefly discussed in text on page 13. The only measure sensitive to t<sub>x</sub> is the encoding error of E neurons, with a minimum at t<sub>x</sub> =9 ms, while I neurons and metabolic cost show no dependency. Firing rates, variability of spiking as well as the average and instantaneous balance show no dependency on t<sub>x</sub>. We note that t<sub>x</sub> = t, with t=1/l the time constant of the population readout (Eq. 9), is an assumption we use when we derive the model from the efficiency objective (Eq. 18 to 23). In our new and preliminary work (Koren, Emanuel, Panzeri, Biorxiv 2024), we derived a more general class of models where this assumption is relaxed, which gives a network with E-E connectivity that adapts to the time constant of the stimulus. Thus, the reviewer is correct in the intuition that the network requires E-E connectivity to better integrate target signals with a different time constant than the time constant of the membrane. We now better emphasize this limitation in Discussion (page 16).

      (4) On repeated occasions, results from the model are referred to as predictions claimed to match the data. A prediction is a statement about what will happen in the future – but most of the “predictions” from the model are actually findings that broadly match earlier experimental results, making them “postdictions”.

      This distinction is important: compared to postdictions, predictions are a much stronger test because they are falsifiable. This is especially relevant given (my impression) that key parameters of the model were tweaked to match the data.

      We now comment on every result from the model as either matching earlier experimental results, or being a prediction for experiments. 

      In Section “Assumptions and emergent properties of the efficient E-I network derived from first principles”, we report (page 4) that neural networks have connectivity structure that relates to tuning similarity of neurons (postdiction). 

      In Section “Encoding performance and neural dynamics in an optimally efficient E-I network” we report (page 5) that in a network with optimal parameters, I neurons have higher firing rate than E neurons (postdiction), that single neurons show temporally correlated synaptic currents (postdiction) and that the distribution of firing rates across neurons is log-normal (postdiction). 

      In Section “Competition across neurons with similar stimulus tuning emerging in efficient spiking networks” we report (page 6)  that the activity perturbation of E neurons induces lateral inhibition on other E neurons, and that the strength of lateral inhibition depends on tuning similarity (postdiction). We show that activity perturbation of E neurons induces lateral excitation in I neurons (prediction). We moreover show that the specific effects of the perturbation of neural activity rely on structured E-I-E connectivity (prediction for experiments, but similar result in Sadeh and Clopath, 2020). We show strong voltage correlations but weak spike-timing correlations in our network (prediction for experiments, but similar result in Boerlin et al. 2013). 

      In Section “The effect of structured connectivity on coding efficiency and neural dynamics”, we report (page 7) that our model predicts a number of differences between networks with structured and unstructured (random) connectivity. In particular, structured networks differ from unstructured ones by showing better encoding performance, lower metabolic cost, weaker variance over time in the membrane potential of each neuron, lower firing rates and weaker average and instantaneous balance of synaptic currents.

      In Section “Weak or no spike-triggered adaptation optimizes network efficiency”, we report (page 9) that our model predicts better encoding performance in networks with adaptation compared to facilitation. Our results suggest that adaptation should be stronger in E compared to I (PV+) neurons (postdiction). In the same section, we report (page 10) that our results suggest that the instantaneous balance is a better predictor of model efficiency than average balance (prediction).

      In Section “Non-specific currents regulate network coding properties”, we report (page 10) that our model predicts that more than half of the distance between the resting potential and firing threshold is taken by external currents that are unrelated to feedforward processing (postdiction). We also report (page 11) that our model predicts that moderate levels of uncorrelated (additive) noise is beneficial for efficiency (prediction for experiments, but similar results in Chalk et al., 2016, Koren et al., 2017, Timcheck et al. 2022).

      In Section “Optimal ratio of E-I neuron numbers and of mean I-I to E-I synaptic efficacy coincide with biophysical measurements”, we predict the optimal ratio of E to I neuron numbers to be 4:1 (postdiction) and the optimal ratio of mean I-I to E-I connectivity to be 3:1 (postdiction). Further, we report (page 13) that our results predict that a decrease in the ratio of E-I neuron numbers is accompanied with the decrease in the ratio of mean I-I to E-I connectivity. 

      Finally, in Section “Dependence of efficient coding and neural dynamics on the stimulus statistics”, we report (page 13) that our model predicts that the efficiency of the network has almost no dependence on the time scale of the stimulus (prediction). 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this work, the authors present a biologically plausible, efficient E-I spiking network model and study various aspects of the model and its relation to experimental observations. This includes a derivation of the network into two (E-I) populations, the study of single-neuron perturbations and lateral-inhibition, the study of the effects of adaptation and metabolic cost, and considerations of optimal parameters. From this, they conclude that their work puts forth a plausible implementation of efficient coding that matches several experimental findings, including feature-specific inhibition, tight instantaneous balance, a 4 to 1 ratio of excitatory to inhibitory neurons, and a 3 to 1 ratio of I-I to E-I connectivity strength. It thus argues that some of these observations may come as a direct consequence of efficient coding.

      Strengths:

      While many network implementations of efficient coding have been developed, such normative models are often abstract and lacking sufficient detail to compare directly to experiments. The intention of this work to produce a more plausible and efficient spiking model and compare it with experimental data is important and necessary in order to test these models.

      In rigorously deriving the model with real physical units, this work maps efficient spiking networks onto other more classical biophysical spiking neuron models. It also attempts to compare the model to recent single-neuron perturbation experiments, as well as some longstanding puzzles about neural circuits, such as the presence of separate excitatory and inhibitory neurons, the ratio of excitatory to inhibitory neurons, and E/I balance. One of the primary goals of this paper, to determine if these are merely biological constraints or come from some normative efficient coding objective, is also important.

      Though several of the observations have been reported and studied before (see below), this work arguably studies them in more depth, which could be useful for comparing more directly to experiments.

      Thanks for these insights and for the kind words of appreciation of the strengths of our work.  

      Weaknesses:

      Though the text of the paper may suggest otherwise, many of the modeling choices and observations found in the paper have been introduced in previous work on efficient spiking models, thereby making this work somewhat repetitive and incremental at times. This includes the derivation of the network into separate excitatory and inhibitory populations, discussion of physical units, comparison of voltage versus spike-timing correlations, and instantaneous E/I balance, all of which can be found in one of the first efficient spiking network papers (Boerlin et al. 2013), as well as in subsequent papers. Metabolic cost and slow adaptation currents were also presented in a previous study (Gutierrez & Deneve 2019). Though it is perfectly fine and reasonable to build upon these previous studies, the language of the text gives them insufficient credit.

      We indeed built our work on these important previous studies, and we apologize if this was not clear enough. We thus improved the text to make sure that credit to previous studies is more precisely and more clearly given (see detailed reply for the list of changes made). 

      To facilitate the understanding on how we built on previous work, we expanded the comparison of our results with the results of Boerlin et al. (2013) about voltage correlations and uncorrelated spiking (page 7), comparison with the derivation of physical units of Boerlin et al. (2013) (page 3), discussion of how results on the ratio of the number of E to I neurons relate  to Calaim et al (2022) and Barrett et al. (2016) (page 16), and comment on the previous work by Gutierrez and Deneve about adaptation (page 8).  

      Furthermore, the paper makes several claims of optimality that are not convincing enough, as they are only verified by a limited parameter sweep of single parameters at a time, are unintuitive and may be in conflict with previous findings of efficient spiking networks. This includes the following. 

      Coding error (RMSE) has a minimum at intermediate metabolic cost (Figure 5B), despite the fact that intuitively, zero metabolic cost would indicate that the network is solely minimizing coding error and that previous work has suggested that additional costs bias the output. 

      Coding error also appears to have a minimum at intermediate values of the ratio of E to I neurons (effectively the number of I neurons) and the number of encoded variables (Figures 6D, 7B). These both have to do with the redundancy in the network (number of neurons for each encoded variable), and previous work suggests that networks can code for arbitrary numbers of variables provided the redundancy is high enough (e.g., Calaim et al. 2022). 

      Lastly, the performance of the E-I variant of the network is shown to be better than that of a single cell type (1CT: Figure 7C, D). Given that the E-I network is performing a similar computation as to the 1CT model but with more neurons (i.e., instead of an E neuron directly providing lateral inhibition to its neighbor, it goes through an interneuron), this is unintuitive and again not supported by previous work. These may be valid emergent properties of the E-I spiking network derived here, but their presentation and description are not sufficient to determine this.

      With regard to the concern that our previous analyses considered optimal parameter sets determined with a sweep of a single parameter at a time, we have addressed this issue in two ways. First, we presented (Figure 6I and 7J and text on pages 11 and 13) results of joint sweeps of variations of pairs of parameters whose joint variations are expected to influence optimality in a way that cannot be understood varying one parameter at a time. These new analyses complement the joint parameter sweep of the time constants of single E and I neurons (t<sub>r</sub><sup>E</sup> and t<sub>r</sub><sup>I</sup>) that has already been presented in Fig. 5A (former Fig. 4A). Second, we conducted, within a reasonable/realistic range of possible variations of each individual parameter, a Monte-Carlo random joint sampling (10000 simulations with 20 trials each) of all 6 model parameters that we explored in the paper. We presented these new results on Fig. 2 and discuss it on pages 5-6. 

      The Reviewer is correct in stating that the error (RMSE) exhibits a counterintuitive minimum as a function of the metabolic constant despite the fact that, intuitively, for vanishing metabolic constant the network is solely minimizing the coding error (Fig. 6B). In our understanding, this counterintuitive finding is due to the presence of noise in the membrane potential dynamics. In the presence of noise, a non-vanishing metabolic constant is needed to suppress “inefficient” spikes purely induced by noise that do not contribute to coding and increase the error. This gives rise to a form of “stochastic resonance”, where the noise improves detection of the signal coming from the feedforward currents. We note that the metabolic constant and the noise variance both appear in the non-specific external current (Eq. 29f in Methods), and, thus, a covariation in their optimal values is expected. Indeed, we find that the optimal metabolic constant monotonically increases as a function of the noise variance, with stronger regularization (larger beta) required to compensate for larger variability (larger sigma) (Fig. 6I). Finally, we note that a moderate level of noise (which, in turn, induces a non-trivial minimum of the coding error as a function of beta) in the network is optimal. The beneficial effect of moderate levels of noise on performance in networks with efficient coding has been shown in different contexts in previous work (Chalk et al. 2016, Koren and Deneve, 2017). The intuition is that the noise prevents the excessive synchronization of the network and insufficient single neuron variability that decrease the performance. The points above are now explained in the revised text on page 11.

      The Reviewer is also correct in stating that the network exhibits an optimal performance for intermediate values of the number of I neurons and the number of encoded features. In our understanding, the optimal number of encoded features of M=3 arises simply because all the other parameters were optimized for those values of M. The purpose of those analyses was not to state that a network optimally encodes only a given number of features, but how a network whose parameters are optimized for a given M perform reasonably well when M is varied. We clarify this on page 13 of Results in Discussion on page 16. In the same Discussion paragraph we refer also to the results of Calaim et al mentioned by the Reviewer. 

      To address the concern about the comparison of efficiency between the E-I and the 1CT model, we took advantage of the Reviewer’s suggestions to consider this issue more deeply. In revision, we now compare the efficiency of the 1CT model with the E population of the E-I model (Fig. 8H). This new comparison changes the conclusion about which model is more efficient, as it shows the 1CT model is slightly more efficient than the E-I model. Nevertheless, the E-I model performance is more robust to small variations of optimal parameters, e.g., it exhibits biologically plausible firing rates for non-optimal values of the metabolic constant. See also the reply to point 3 of the Public Review of Reviewer 2 for more detail. We added these results and the ensuing caveats for the interpretation of this comparison on Page 14, and also revised the title of the last subsection of Results.  

      Alternatively, the methodology of the model suggests that ad hoc modeling choices may be playing a role. For example, an arbitrary weighting of coding error and metabolic cost of 0.7 to 0.3, respectively, is chosen without mention of how this affects the results. Furthermore, the scaling of synaptic weights appears to be controlled separately for each connection type in the network (Table 1), despite the fact that some of these quantities are likely linked in the optimal network derivation. Finally, the optimal threshold and metabolic constants are an order of magnitude larger than the synaptic weights (Table 1). All of these considerations suggest one of the following two possibilities. One, the model has a substantial number of unconstrained parameters to tune, in which case more parameter sweeps would be necessary to definitively make claims of optimality. Or two, parameters are being decoupled from those constrained by the optimal derivation, and the optima simply corresponds to the values that should come out of the derivation.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing about these important questions.

      In the first submission, we presented both the encoding error and the metabolic cost separately as a function of the parameters, so that readers could get an understanding of how stable optimal parameters would be to the change of the relative weighting of encoding error and metabolic cost. We specified this in Results (page 5) and we kept presenting separately encoding and metabolic terms in the revision.

      However, we agree that it is important to present the explicit quantification on how the optimal parameters may depend on g<sub>L</sub>. In the first submission, we showed the analysis for all possible weightings in case of two parameters for which we found this analysis was the most relevant – the ratio of neuron numbers (Fig. 7E, Fig. 6E in first submission) and the optimal number of input features M (see last paragraph on page 13 and Fig. 8D). We now show this analysis also for the rest of studied model parameters in the Supplementary Fig. S4 (A-D and H). This is discussed on pages 9, 10,11 and 12.

      With regard to the concern that the scaling of synaptic weights should not be controlled separately for each connection type in the network, we agree and we would like to clarify that we did not control such scaling separately. Apologies if this was not clear enough. From the optimal analytical solution, we obtained that the connectivity scales with the standard deviation of decoding weights (s<sub>w</sub><sup>E</sup> and s<sub>w</sub><sup>I</sup>) of the pre and postsynaptic populations (Methods, Eq. 32). We studied the network properties as a function of the ratio of average I-I to E-I connectivity (Fig. 7 F-I; Supplementary Fig. S4 D-H), which is equivalent to the ratio of standard deviations s<sub>w</sub><sup>I</sup> /s<sub>w</sub><sup>E</sup> (see Methods, Eq. 35). We clarified this in text on page 12.

      Next, it is correct that our synaptic weights are an order of magnitude smaller than the metabolic constant. We analysed a simpler version of the network that has the coding and dynamics identical to our full model (Methods, Eq. 25) but without the external currents. We found that the optimal parameters determining the firing threshold in such a simpler network were biologically implausible (see Supplementary Text 2 and Supplementary Table S1). We considered as another simple solution the rescaling of the synaptic efficacy such as to have biologically plausible threshold. However, that gave implausible mean synaptic efficacy (see Supplementary Text 2).  Thus, to be able to define a network with biologically plausible firing threshold and mean synaptic efficacy, we introduced the non-specific external current. After introducing such current, we were able to shift the firing threshold to biologically plausible values while keeping realistic values of mean synaptic efficacy. Biologically plausible values for the firing threshold are around 15 -– 20 mV above the resting potential (Constantinople and Bruno, 2013), which is the value that we have in our model. A plausible value for the average synaptic strength is between a fraction of one millivolt to a couple of millivolts (Constantinople & Bruno, 2013, Campagnola et al. 2022), which also corresponds to values that the synaptic weights take. The above results are briefly explained in the revised text on page 4.

      Finally, to study the optimality of the network when changing multiple parameters at a time, we added a new analysis with Monte-Carlo random joint sampling (10.000 parameter sets with 20 trials for each set) of all 6 model parameters that we explored in the paper. We compared (Fig 2) the so-obtained results of each simulation with those obtained from the understanding gained from varying one or two parameters at a time (optimal parameters reported in Table 1 and used throughout the paper).  We found (Fig. 2) that the optimal configuration in Table 1 was never improved by any other simulations we performed, and that the first three random simulations that came the closest to the optimal one of Table 1 had stronger noise intensity but also stronger metabolic cost than the configuration on Table 1. The second, third and fourth configurations had longer time constants of both E and I single neurons (adaptation time constants). Ratio of E-I neuron numbers and of I-I to E-I connectivity in the second, third and fourth best configuration were either jointly increased or decreased with respect to our configuration. These results are reported on Fig. 2 and in Tables 2-3 and they are discussed in Results (page 5).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In their paper the authors tackle three things at once in a theoretical model: how can spiking neural networks perform efficient coding, how can such networks limit the energy use at the same time, and how can this be done in a more biologically realistic way than previous work?

      They start by working from a long-running theory on how networks operating in a precisely balanced state can perform efficient coding. First, they assume split networks of excitatory (E) and inhibitory (I) neurons. The E neurons have the task to represent some lower dimensional input signal, and the I neurons have the task to represent the signal represented by the E neurons. Additionally, the E and I populations should minimize an energy cost represented by the sum of all spikes. All this results in two loss functions for the E and I populations, and the networks are then derived by assuming E and I neurons should only spike if this improves their respective loss. This results in networks of spiking neurons that live in a balanced state, and can accurately represent the network inputs.

      They then investigate in-depth different aspects of the resulting networks, such as responses to perturbations, the effect of following Dale's law, spiking statistics, the excitation (E)/inhibition (I) balance, optimal E/I cell ratios, and others. Overall, they expand on previous work by taking a more biological angle on the theory and showing the networks can operate in a biologically realistic regime.

      Strengths:

      (1) The authors take a much more biological angle on the efficient spiking networks theory than previous work, which is an essential contribution to the field.

      (2) They make a very extensive investigation of many aspects of the network in this context, and do so thoroughly.

      (3) They put sensible constraints on their networks, while still maintaining the good properties these networks should have.

      Thanks for this summary and for these kind words of appreciation of the strengths of our work.  

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The paper has somewhat overstated the significance of their theoretical contributions, and should make much clearer what aspects of the derivations are novel. Large parts were done in very similar ways in previous papers. Specifically: the split into E and I neurons was also done in Boerlin et al (2008) and in Barrett et al (2016). Defining the networks in terms of realistic units was already done by Boerlin et al (2008). It would also be worth it to discuss Barrett et al (2016) specifically more, as there they also use split E/I networks and perform biologically relevant experiments.

      We improved the text to make sure that credit to previous studies is more precisely and more clearly given (see rebuttal to the specific suggestions of Reviewer 2 for a full list).

      We apologize if this was not clear enough in the previous version. 

      With regard to the specific point raised here about the E-I split, we revised the text on page 2. With regard to the realistic units, we revised the text on page 3. Finally, we commented on relation between our results and results of the study by Barrett et al. (2016) on page 16.

      (2) It is not clear from an optimization perspective why the split into E and I neurons and following Dale's law would be beneficial. While the constraints of Dale's law are sensible (splitting the population in E and I neurons, and removing any non-Dalian connection), they are imposed from biology and not from any coding principles. A discussion of how this could be done would be much appreciated, and in the main text, this should be made clear.

      We indeed removed non-Dalian connections because Dale’s law is a major constraint for biological plausibility. Our logic was to consider efficient coding within the space of networks that satisfy this (and other) biological plausibility constraints. We did not intend to claim that removing the non-Dalian connections was the result of an analytical optimization. We clarified this in revision (page 4).

      (3) Related to the previous point, the claim that the network with split E and I neurons has a lower average loss than a 1 cell-type (1-CT) network seems incorrect to me. Only the E population coding error should be compared to the 1-CT network loss, or the sum of the E and I populations (not their average). In my author recommendations, I go more in-depth on this point.

      We carefully considered these possibilities and decided to compare only the E population of the E-I model with the 1-CT model. On Fig.8G (7C of the first submission), E neurons have a slightly higher error and cost compared to the 1CT network. In the revision, we compared the loss of E neurons of the E-I model with the loss of the 1-CT model. Using such comparison, we found that the 1CT network has lower loss and is more efficient compared to E neurons of the E-I model. We revised Figure 8H and text on page 14 to address this point. 

      (4) While the paper is supposed to bring the balanced spiking networks they consider in a more experimentally relevant context, for experimental audiences I don't think it is easy to follow how the model works, and I recommend reworking both the main text and methods to improve on that aspect.

      We tried to make the presentation of the model more accessible to a non-computational audience in the revised paper. We carefully edited the text throughout to make it as accessible as possible. 

      Assessment and context:

      Overall, although much of the underlying theory is not necessarily new, the work provides an important addition to the field. The authors succeeded well in their goal of making the networks more biologically realistic, and incorporating aspects of energy efficiency. For computational neuroscientists, this paper is a good example of how to build models that link well to experimental knowledge and constraints, while still being computationally and mathematically tractable. For experimental readers, the model provides a clearer link between efficient coding spiking networks to known experimental constraints and provides a few predictions.

      Thanks for these kind words. We revised the paper to make sure that these points emerge more clearly and in a more accessible way from the revised paper.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Referring to the major comments:

      (1) Be upfront about particular modelling choices and why you made them; avoid talk of a "striking/surprising", etc. ability to explain data when this actually requires otherwise-arbitrary choices and auxiliary assumptions. Ideally, this nuance is already clear from the abstract.

      We removed all the "striking/surprising" and similar expressions from the text. 

      We added to the Abstract the assumption of equal time constants of the stimulus and of the membrane of E and I neurons and the assumption of the independence of encoded stimulus features.

      In revision, we performed additional analyses (joint parameter sweeps, Monte-Carlo joint sampling of all 6 model parameters) providing additional evidence that the network parameters in Table 1 capture reasonably well the optimal solution. These are reported on Figs. 2, 6I and 7J and in Results (pages 5, 11 and 13). See rebuttal to weaknesses of the public review of the Referee 2 for details.

      (2) Make even more of an effort to acknowledge prior work on the importance of structured E-I and I-E connectivity.

      We have revised the text (page 4) to better place our results within previous work on structured E-I and I-E connectivity.

      (3) Be clear about the model's limitations and mention them throughout the text. This will allow readers to interpret your results appropriately.

      We now comment more on model's limitations, in particular the simplifying assumption about the network's computation (page 16), the lack of E-E connectivity (page 3), the absence of long-term adaptation (page 10), and the simplification of only having one type of inhibitory neurons (page 16). 

      (4) Present your "predictions" for what they are: aspects of the model that can be made consistent with the existing data after some fitting. Except in the few cases where you make actual predictions, which deserve to be highlighted.

      We followed the suggestion of the reviewer and distinguished cases where the model is consistent with the data (postdictions) from actual predictions, where empirical measurements are not available or not conclusive. We compiled a list of predictions and postdictions in response to the point 4 of Reviewer 1. In revision, we now comment about every property of the model as either reproducing a known property of biological networks (postdiction) or being a prediction. We improved the text in Results on pages 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 to accommodate these requests.

      Minor comments and recommendations

      It's a sizable list, but most can be addressed with some text edits.

      (1) The image captions should give more details about the simulations and analyses, particularly regarding sample sizes and statistical tests. In Figure 5, for example, it is unclear if the lines represent averages over multiple signals and, if so, how many. It's probably not a single realization, but if it is, this might explain the otherwise puzzling optimal number of three stimuli. Box plots visualize the distribution across simulation trials, but it's not clear how many. In Figure 7d, a star suggests statistical significance, but the caption does not mention the test or its results; the y-axis should also have larger limits.

      All statistical results were computed on 100 or 200 simulation trials, depending on the figure, with duration of the trial of 1 second of simulated time. To compute statistical results in Fig. 1, we used 10 trials with duration of 10 seconds for each trial. Each trial consisted of M independent realizations of Ornstein-Uhlenbeck (OU) processes as stimuli, independent noise in the membrane potential and an independent draw of tuning parameters, such that the results are general over specific realization of these random variables. Realizations of the OU processes were independent across stimulus dimensions and across trials. We added this information in the caption of each figure. 

      The optimal number of M=3 stimuli is the result of measuring the performance of the network in 100 simulation trials (for each parameter value), thus following the same procedure as for all other parameters. Boxplots on Fig. 8G-H were also generated from results computed in 100 simulation trials, which we have now specified in the caption of the figure, together with the statistical test used for assessing the significance (twotailed t-test). We also enlarged the limits of Fig. 8H (7D in the previous version).

      (2) The Oldenburg paper (reference 62) finds suppression of all but nearby neurons in response to two- photon stimulation of small neural ensembles (instead of single neurons, as in Chettih & Harvey). This isn't perfectly consistent with the model's results, even though the Oldenburg experiments seem more relevant given the model's small size, and strong connectivity/high connection probability between similarly tuned neurons. What might explain the potential mismatch?

      We sincerely apologize for not having been precise enough on this point when comparing our model against Chettih & Harvey and Oldenburg et al. We corrected the sentence (page 6) to remove the claim that our model reproduces both. 

      We speculate that the discrepancy between perturbing our model and the Oldenburg data may arise from the lack of E-E connectivity in our model. Synaptic connections between E neurons with similar selectivity could create an enhancement instead of suppression between neuronal pairs with very similar tuning. We added a sentence about this in the section with perturbation experiments “Competition across neurons with similar stimulus tuning emerging in efficient spiking networks” (page 7) where we discuss this limitation of our model. We feel that this example shows the utility to derive some perturbation results from our model, as not all networks with some degree of lateral inhibition will show the same perturbation results. Comparing our model's perturbation with real data perturbation results has thus some value to better appreciate strengths and limitations of our approach. 

      (3) "Previous studies optogenetically stimulated E neurons but did not determine whether the recorded neurons were excitatory or inhibitory " (p. 11). I believe Oldenburg et al. did specifically image excitatory neurons.

      The reviewer is correct about Oldenburg et al. imaging specifically excitatory neurons. We have revised this part of the Discussion (page 15). 

      (4) The authors write that efficiency is particularly achieved where adaptation is stronger in E compared to I neurons (p. 7; Figure 4). Although this would be consistent with experimental data (the I neurons in the model seem akin to fast-spiking Pv+ cells), I struggle to see it in the figure. Instead, it seems like there are roughly two regimes. If either of the neuronal timescales is faster than the stimulus timescale, the optimisation fails. If both are at least as slow, optimisation succeeds.

      We agree with the reviewer that the adaptation properties of our inhibitory neurons are compatible with Pv+ cells. What is essential for determining the dynamical regime of the network is less the relation to the time constant of the stimulus (t<sub>x</sub>) but rather the relation between the time constant of the population readout (t, which is also the membrane time constant) and the time constant of the single neuron (t<sub>r</sub><sup>y</sup> for y=E and y=I; see Eq. 23, 25 or 29e). The relation between t and t<sub>r</sub><sup>y</sup> determines if single neurons generate spike-triggered adaptation (t<sub>r</sub><sup>y</sup> > t) or spike-triggered facilitation (t<sub>r</sub><sup>y</sup> < t; see Table 4). In regimes with facilitation in either E or I neurons (or both), the network performance strongly deteriorates compared to regimes with adaptation (Fig. 5A). 

      Beyond adaptation leading to better performance, we also found different effects of adaptation in E and I neurons. We acknowledge that the difference of these effects was difficult to see from the Fig. 4B in the first submission. We have now replotted results from previously shown Fig. 4B to focus on the adaptation regime only, (since the Fig. 5A already establishes that this is the regime with better performance). We also added figures showing the differential effect of adaptation in E and I cell type on the firing rate and on the average loss (Fig. 5C-D). Fig. 5B and C (top plots) show that with adaptation in E neurons, the error and the loss increase more slowly than with adaptation in I neurons. Moreover, the firing rate in both cell types decreases with adaptation in E neurons, while this is not the case with adaptation in I neurons (Fig. 5D). These results are added to the figure panels specified above and discussed in text on page 9.

      To clarify the relation between neuronal and stimulus timescale, we now also added the analysis of network performance as a function of the time constant of the stimulus t<sub>x</sub> (Supplementary Fig. S5 C-E). We found that the model's performance is optimal when the time constant of the stimulus is close to the membrane time constant t. This result is expected, because the equality of these time constants was imposed in our analytical derivation of the model (t<sub>x</sub>  = t). We see a similar decrease in performance for values of t<sub>x</sub>  that are faster and slower with respect to the membrane time constant (Supplementary Fig. S5C, top). These results are added to the figure panels specified above and discussed in text on page 13.

      (5) A key functional property of cortical interneurons is their lower stimulus selectivity. Does the model replicate this feature?

      We think that whether I neurons are less selective than E neurons is still an open question. A number of recent empirical studies reported that the selectivity of I neurons is comparable to the selectivity of E neurons (see., e.g., Kuan et al. Nature 2024, Runyan et al. Neuron 2010, Najafi et al. Neuron 2020). In our model, the optimal solution prescribes a precise structure in recurrent connectivity (see Eq. 24 and Fig. 1C(ii)) and structured connectivity endows I neurons with stimulus selectivity. To show this, we added plots of example tuning curves and the distribution of the selectivity index across E and I neurons (Fig. 8E-F) and described these new results in Results (page 14). Tuning curves in our network were similar to those computed in a previous work that addressed stimulus tuning in efficient spiking networks (Barrett et al. 2016). We evaluated tuning curves using M=3 constant stimulus features and we varied one of the features while the two others were kept fixed. We provided details on how the tuning curves and the selectivity index were computed in a new Methods subsection (“Tuning curves and selectivity index”) on page 50.

      (6) The final panels of Figure 4 are presented as an approach to test the efficiency of biological networks. The authors seem to measure the instantaneous (and time-averaged) E-I balance while varying the adaptation parameter and then correlate this with the loss. If that is indeed the approach (it's difficult to tell), this doesn't seem to suggest a tractable experiment. Also, the conclusion is somewhat obvious: the tighter the single neuron balance, the fewer unnecessary spikes are fired. I recommend that the authors clearly explain their analysis and how they envision its application to biological data.

      We indeed measured the instantaneous (and time-averaged) E-I balance while varying the adaptation parameters and then correlating this with the loss. We did not want to imply that the latter panels of Figure 4 are a means to test the efficiency or biological networks or that we are suggesting new and possibly unfeasible experiments. We see it as a way to better conceptually understand how spike triggered adaptation helps the network’s coding efficiency, by tightening the E I balance in a way that it reduces the number of unnecessary spikes. We apologize if the previous text was confusing in this respect.   We have now removed the initial paragraph of former Results Subsection (including removing the subsection title) and added new text about different effect of adaptation in E and I neurons on Page 9. We also thoroughly revised Figure 5.

      (7) The external stimuli are repeatedly said to vary (or be tracked) across "multiple time scales", which might inadvertently be interpreted as (i) a single stimulus containing multiple timescales or (ii) simultaneously presented stimuli containing different timescales. These scenarios are potential targets for efficient coding through neuronal adaptation (reference 21 in the manuscript and Pozzorini et al. Nat. Neuro. 2013), but they are not addressed in the current model. I recommend the authors clarify their statements regarding timescales (and if they're up for it, acknowledge this as a limitation).

      We thank the reviewer for bringing up this interesting point. To address the second point raised by the Reviewer (simultaneously presented stimuli containing multiple timescales), we performed new analyses to test the model with simultaneously presented stimuli that have different timescales. We found that the model encodes efficiently such stimuli.  We tested the case with a 3-dimensional stimulus where each dimension is an Ornstein-Uhlenbeck process with a different time constant. More precisely, we kept the time constant in the first dimension fixed (at 10 ms), and varied the time constant in the second and third dimension such that the time constant in the third dimension is doubled with respect to the second dimension. We plotted the encoding error in every stimulus dimension for E and I neurons (Fig. 8B, left plot) as well as the encoding error and the metabolic cost averaged across stimulus dimensions (Fig. 8B, right plot). The results are briefly described with text on page 13.

      Regarding the case i) (single stimulus containing multiple timescales), we considered two possibilities. One possibility is that timescales of the stimulus are separable, and in this case a single stimulus containing several time scales can be decomposed in several stimuli with a single time scale each. As we assign a new set of weights for each dimension of the decomposed stimulus, this case is similar to the case ii) that we already addressed. Another possibility is that timescales of the stimulus cannot be separated. This case is not covered in the present analysis and we listed it among the limitations of the model. We revised the text (page 13) around the question of multiple time scales and included the citation of Pozzorini et al. (2013). 

      (8) It is claimed that the model uses a mixed code to represent signals, citing reference 47 (Rigotti et al., Nature 2013). But whereas the model seems to use linear mixed selectivity, the Rigotti reference highlights the virtues of nonlinear mixed selectivity. In my understanding, a linearly mixed code does not enjoy the same benefits since it’s mathematically equivalent to a non-mixed code (simply rotate the readout matrix). I recommend that the authors clarify the type of selectivity used by their model and how it relates to the paper(s) they cite.

      The reviewer is correct that our selectivity is a linear mixing of input variables, and differs from the selectivity in Rigotti et al. (2013) which is non-linear. We revised the sentence on page 4 to clarify better that the mixed selectivity we consider is linear and we removed Rigotti’s citation. 

      (9) Reference 46 is cited as evidence that leaky integration of sensory features is a relevant computation for sensory areas. I don’t think this is quite what the reference shows. Instead, it finds certain morphological and electrophysiological differences between single pyramidal neurons in the primary visual cortex compared to the prefrontal cortex. Reference 46’ then goes on to speculate that these are differences relevant to sensory computation. This may seem like a quibble, but given the centrality of the objectivee function in normative theories, I think it's important to clarify why a particular objective is chosen.

      We agree that our reference of Amatrudo et al was not the best reference and that the previous text was confusing. We thus tried to improve on its clarity. We looked at the previous theoretical efficient coding papers introducing this leaky integration and we could not find in the previous theoretical work a justification of this assumption based on experimental papers. However, there is evidence that neurons in sensory structures, and in cortical association areas respond to time varying sensory evidence by summing stimuli over time with a weight that decreases steadily going back in time from the time of firing, which suggests that neurons integrate time-varying sensory features. In many cases, these integration kernels decay approximately exponentially going back in time, and several models explaining successfully perceptual readouts of neural activity work assuming leaky integration. This suggests that the mathematical approximation of leaky integration of sensory evidence, though possibly simplistic, is reasonable.  We revised the text in this respect (page 2).  

      (10) The definition of the objective function uses beta as a tuning parameter, but later parts of the text and figures refer to a parameter g_L which might only be introduced in the convex combination of Eq. 40a.

      This is correct. Parameter optimization has been performed on a weighted sum of the average encoding error and cost as given by the Eq. 39a (40a in first submission), with the weighting g<sub>L</sub> for the error versus the cost, and not the beta that is part of the objective in Eq.10. The convex combination in Eq. 39a allowed us to find a set of optimal parameters that is within biologically realistic parameter ranges, which includes realistic values for the firing threshold. The average encoding error and metabolic cost (the two terms on the right-hand side of Eq. 39a, without weighting with g<sub>L</sub>) in our network are of the same order (see Fig 8G for the E-I model where these values are plotted separately for the optimal network). Weighing the cost with optimal beta that is in the range of ~10 would have yielded a network that optimizes almost exclusively the metabolic cost and would bias the results towards solutions with poor encoding accuracy.

      To document more fully how the choice of weighting of the error with the cost (g<sub>L</sub>) affects the optimal parameters, we now added new analysis (Fig. 8D and Supplementary Fig. S4 A-D and H) showing optimal parameters as a function of this weighting. We commented on these results in the text on pages 9-11 and 12. For further details, please see also the reply to point 1 or Reviewer 1.

      (11) Figure 1J: "In E neurons, the distribution of inhibitory and of net synaptic inputs overlap". In my understanding, they are in fact identical, and this is by construction. It might help the reader to state this.

      We apologize for an unclear statement. In E neurons, net synaptic current is the sum of the feedforward current and of recurrent inhibition (Eq. 29c and Eq. 42). With our choice of tuning parameters that are symmetric around zero and with stimulus features that have vanishing mean, the mean of the feedforward current is close to zero. Because of this, the mean of the net current is negative and is close to the mean of the inhibitory current. We have clarified this in the text (page 5).

      (12) A few typos:

      -  p1. "Minimizes the encoding accuracy" should be "maximizes..."

      -  p1: "as well the progress" should be something like "as well as the progress"

      -  p.11 In recorded neurons where excitatory or inhibitory. ", "where" should be "were" - Fig3: missing parentheses (B)

      -  Fig4B: the 200 ticks on the y-scale are cut off.

      -  Panel Fig. 5a: "stimulus" should be "stimuli".

      -  Ref 24 "Efficient andadaptive sensory codes" is missing a space.

      -  p. 26: "requires" should be "required".

      -  On several occasions, the article "the" is missing.

      We thank the reviewer for kindly pointing out the typos that we now corrected.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I would like to give the authors more details about the two main weaknesses discussed above, so that they may address specific points in the paper. First, there is the relation to previous work. Several published articles have presented very similar results to those discussed here, including references 5, 26, 28, 32, 33, 42, 43, 48, and an additional reference not cited by the authors (Calaim et al. 2022 eLife e73276). This includes:

      (1) Derivation of an E-I efficient spiking network, which is found in refs. 28, 42, 43, and 48. This is not reflected in the text: e.g., "These previous implementations, however, had neurons that did not respect Dale's law" (Introduction, pg. 1); "Unlike previous approaches (28, 48), we hypothesize that E and I neurons have distinct normative objectives...". The authors should discuss how their derivation compares to these.

      We have now fully clarified on page 3 that our model builds on the seminal previous works that introduced E-I networks with efficient coding (Supplementary text in Boerlin et al. 2013, Chalk et al. 2016, Barrett et al. 2016). 

      (2) Inclusion of a slow adaptation current: I believe this also appears in a previous paper (Gutierrez & Deneve 2019, ref. 33) in almost the exact same form, and is again not reflected in the text: "The strength of the current is proportional to the difference in inverse time constants ... and is thus absent in previous studies assuming that these time constants are equal (... ref. 33). Again, the authors should compare their derivation to this previous work.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We sincerely apologize if our previous version did not recognize sufficiently clearly that the previous work of Gutierrez and Deneve (eLife 2019; ref 33) introduced first the slow adaptation current that is similar to spike-triggered adaptation in our model. We have made sure that the revised text recognizes it more clearly. We also explained better what we changed or added with respect to this previous work (see revised text on page 8). 

      The work by Gutierrez and Deneve (2019) emphasizes the interplay between single neuron property (an adapting current in single neurons) and network property (networklevel coding through structured recurrent connections). They use a network that does not distinguish E and I neurons. Our contribution instead focuses on the adaptation in an E-I network. To improve the presentation following the Reviewer’s comment, we now better emphasize the differential effect of adaptation in E and in I neurons in revision (Fig. 5 B-D). Moreover, Gutierrez and Deneve studied the effect of adaptation on slower time scales (1 or 2 seconds) while we study the adaptation on a finer time scale of tens of milliseconds. The revised text detailed this is reported on Page 8.

      (3) Background currents and physical units: Pg. 26: "these models did not contain any synaptic current unrelated to feedforward and recurrent processing" and "Moreover previous models on efficient coding did not thoroughly consider physical units of variables" - this was briefly described in ref. 28 (Boerlin et al. 2013), in which the voltage and threshold are transformed by adding a common constant, and additional aspects of physical units are discussed.

      It is correct that Boerlin et al (2013) suggested adding a common constant to introduce physical units. We now revised the text to make clearer the relation between our results and the results of Boerlin et al. (2013) (page 3). In our paper, we built on Boerlin et al. (2013) and assigned physical units to computational variables that define the model's objective (the targets, the estimates, the metabolic constant, etc.). We assigned units to computational variables in such a way that physical variables (such as membrane potential, transmembrane currents, firing thresholds and resets) have the correct physical units.  We have now clarified how we derived physical units in the section of Results where we introduce the biophysical model (page 3) and specified how this derivation relates to the results in Boerlin et al. (2013).

      (4) Voltage correlations, spike correlations, and instantaneous E/I balance: this was already pointed out in Boerlin et al. 2013 (ref 28; from that paper: "Despite these strong correlations of the membrane potentials, the neurons fire rarely and asynchronously") and others including ref. 32. The authors mention this briefly in the Discussion, but it should be more prominent that this work presents a more thorough study of this well-known characteristic of the network.

      We agree that it would be important to comment on how our results relate to these results in Boerlin et al. (2013). It is correct that in Boerlin et al. (2013) neurons have strong correlations in the membrane potentials, but fire asynchronously, similarly to what we observe in our model. However, asynchronous dynamics in Boerlin et al. (2013) strongly depends on the assumption of instantaneous synaptic transmission and time discretization, with a “one spike per time bin” rule in numerical implementation. This rule enforces that at most one spike is fired in each time bin, thus actively preventing any synchronization across neurons. If this rule is removed, their network synchronizes, unless the metabolic constant is strong enough to control such synchronization to bring it back to asynchronous regime (see ref. 36). Our implementation does not contain any specific rule that would prevent synchronization across neurons. We now cite the paper by Boerlin and colleagues and briefly summarize this discussion when we describe the result of Fig. 3D on page 7. 

      (5) Perturbations and parameters sweep: I found one previous paper on efficient spiking networks (Calaim et al. 2022) which the authors did not cite, but appears to be highly relevant to the work presented here. Though the authors perform different perturbations from this previous study, they should ideally discuss how their findings relate to this one. Furthermore, this previous study performs extensive sweeps over various network parameters, which the authors might discuss here, when relevant. For example, on pg. 8, the authors write “We predict that, if number of neurons within the population decreases, neurons have to fire more spikes to achieve an optimal population readout” – this was already shown in Calaim et al. 2022 Figure 5, and the authors should mention if their results are consistent.

      We apologize for not being aware of Calaim et al. (2022) when we submitted the first version of our paper. This important study is now cited in the revised version. We have now, as suggested, performed sweeps of multiple parameters inspired by the work of Calaim. This new analysis is described extensively in reply to Weaknesses in the Public Review of reviewer 2 and is found in Fig 2, 6I and 7J and described on pages 5,11 and 13.

      The Reviewer is also correct that the compensation mechanism that applies when changing the ratio of E-I neuron numbers is similar to the one described in Barrett et al. (2016) and related to our claim “if number of neurons within the population decreases, neurons have to fire more spikes to achieve an optimal population readout”. We have now added (page 11) that this prediction is consistent with the finding of Barrett et al. (2016).

      With regard to the dependence of optimal coding properties on the number of neurons, we have tried to better describe similarities and differences with our work and that of Calaim et al as well as with the work of Barrett et al. (2016) which reports highly relevant results. These additional considerations are summarized in a paragraph in Discussion (page 16).

      (6) Overall, the authors should distinguish which of their results are novel, which ones are consistent with previous work on efficient spiking networks, and which ones are consistent in general with network implementations of efficient and sparse coding. In many of the above cases, this manuscript goes into much more depth and study of each of the network characteristics, which is interesting and commendable, but this should be made clear. In clarifying the points listed above, I hope that the authors can better contextualize their work in relation to previous studies, and highlight what are the unique characteristics of the model presented here.

      We made a number of clarifications of the text to provide better contextualization of our model within existing literature and to credit more precisely previous publications. This includes commenting on previous studies that introduced separate objective functions of E and I neurons (page 2), spike-triggered adaptation (page 8), physical units (page 3), and changes in the number of neurons in the network (page 16). 

      Next, there are the claims of optimal parameters. As explained on pg. 35 (criterion for determining optimal model parameters), it appears to me that they simply vary each parameter one at a time around the optimal value. This argument appears somewhat circular, as they would need to know the optimal parameters before starting this sweep. In general, I find these optimality considerations to be the most interesting and novel part of the paper, but the simulations are relatively limited, so I would ask the authors to either back them up with more extensive parameter sweeps that consider covariations in different parameters simultaneously (as in Calaim et al. 2022). Furthermore, the authors should make sure that they are not breaking any of the required relationships between parameters necessary for the optimization of the loss function. Again, some of the results (such as coding error not being minimized with zero metabolic cost) suggests that there might be issues here. 

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful suggestion. We have now added a joint sweep of all relevant model parameters using Monte-Carlo parameter search with 10.000 iterations. We randomly drew parameter configurations from predetermined parameter ranges that are detailed in the newly added Table 2. Parameters were sampled from a uniform distribution. We varied all the six model parameters studied in the paper (metabolic constant, noise intensity, time constant of single E and I neurons, ratio of E to I neurons and ratio of the mean I-I to E-I connectivity).  We now present these results on a new Figure 2. We did not find any set of parameters with lower loss than the parameters in Table 1 when the weighting of the error with the cost was in the following range: 0.4<g<sub>L</sub><0.81 (Fig. 2C). While our large but finite Monte-Carlo random sampling does not fully prove that the configuration we selected as optimal (on Table 1) is a global optimum, it shows that this configuration is highly efficient. Further, and as detailed in the rebuttal to the Weaknesses of the Public Review of Referee 2, analyses of the near optimal solutions are compatible with the notion (resulting from the join parameter sweep studies that we added to Figures 6 and 7) that network optimality may be influenced by joint covariations in parameters. These new results are reported in Results (page 5, 11 and 13) and in Figure 2, 6I an 7J.

      Some more specific points:

      (1) In general, I find it difficult to understand the scaling of the RMSE, cost, and loss values in Figures 4-7. Why are RMSE values in the range of 1-10, whereas loss and cost values are in the range of 0-1? Perhaps the authors can explicitly write the values of the RMSE and loss for the simulation in Figure 1G as a reference point.

      Encoding error (RMSE), metabolic cost (MC) and average loss for a well performing network are within the range of 1-10 (see Fig. 8G or 7C in the first submission). To ease the visualization of results, we normalized the cost and the loss on Figs. 6-8 in order to plot them on the same figure (while the computation of the optima is done following the Eq. 39 and is without normalization). We have now explicitly written the values of RMSE, MC and the average loss (non-normalized) for the simulation in Fig. 1D on page 5, as suggested by the reviewer. We have also revised Fig. 4 and now show the absolute and not the relative values of the RMSE and the MC (metabolic cost). 

      (2) Optimal E-I neuron ratio of 4:1 and efficacy ratio of 3:1: besides being unintuitive in relation to previous work, are these two optimal settings related to one another? If there are 4x more excitatory neurons than inhibitory neurons, won't this affect the efficacy ratio of the weights of the two populations? What happens if these two parameters are varied together?

      Thanks for this insightful point. Indeed, the optima of these two parameters are interdependent and positively correlated - if we decrease the E-I neuron ratio, the optimal efficacy ratio decreases as well. To better show this relation we added figures with 2dimensional parameter search (Fig. 7J) where we varied jointly the two ratios. The red cross on the right figure marks the optimal ratios used as optimal parameters in our study. These finding are discussed on page 13.

      (3) Optimal dimensionality of M=[1,4]: Again, previous work (Calaim et al. 2022) would suggest that efficient spiking networks can code for arbitrary dimensional signals, but that performance depends on the redundancy in the network - the more neurons, the better the coding. From this, I don't understand how or why the authors find a minimum in Figure 7B. Why does coding performance get worse for small M?

      We optimized all model parameters with M=3 and this is the reason why M=3 is the optimal number of inputs when we vary this parameter. Our network shows a distinct minimum of the encoding error as a function of the stimulus dimensionality for both E and I neurons (Fig. 8C, top). This minimum is reflected in the minimum of the average loss (Fig. 8C, bottom). The minimum of the loss is shifted (or biased) by the metabolic cost, with strong weighting of the cost lowering the optimal number of inputs. This is discussed on pages 13-14.

      Here are a list of other, more minor points, that the authors can consider addressing to make the results and text more clear:

      (1) Feedforward efficient coding models: in the introduction (pg. 1) and discussion (pg. 11) it is mentioned that early efficient coding models, such as that of Olshausen & Field 96, were purely feedforward, which I believe to be untrue (e.g., see Eq. 2 of O&F 96). Later models made this even more explicit (Rozell et al. 2008). Perhaps the authors can either clarify what they meant by this, or downplay this point.

      We sincerely apologize for the oversight present in the previous version of the text. We agree with the reviewer that the model in Olshausen and Field (1996) indeed defines a network with recurrent connections, and the same type of recurrent connectivity has been used by Rozell et al. (2008, 2013). The structure of the connectivity in Olshausen and Field (as well as in Rozell et al (2008)) is closely related to the structure of connectivity that we derived in our model. We have corrected the text in the introduction (page 1) to remove these errors.

      (2) Pg. 2 - The authors state: "We draw tuning parameters from a normal distribution...", but in the methods, it states that these are then normalized across neurons, so perhaps the authors could add this here, or rephrase it to say that weights are drawn uniformly on the hypersphere.

      We rephrased the description of how weights were determined (page 2).

      (3) Pg. 2 - "We hypothesize the time-resolved metabolic cost to be proportional to the estimate of a momentary firing rate of the neural population" - from what I can see, this is not the usual population rate, which would be an average or sum of rates across the population.

      Indeed, the time-dependent metabolic cost is not the population rate (in the sense of the sum of instantaneous firing rates across neurons), but is proportional to it by a factor of 1/t. More precisely, we can define the instantaneous estimate of the firing rate of a single neuron i as z<sub>i</sub>(t) = 1/t<sub>r</sub> r<sub>i</sub>(t) with r<sub>i</sub>(t) as in Eq. 7. We have clarified this in the revised text on page 3. 

      (4) Pg. 3: "The synaptic strength between two neurons is proportional to their tuning similarity if the tuning similarity is positive" - based on the figure and results, this appears to be the case for I-E, E-I, and I-I connections, but not for E-E connections. This should be clarified in the text. Furthermore, one reference given in the subsequent sentence (Ko et al. 2011, ref. 51), is specifically about E-E connections, so doesn't appear to be relevant here.

      We have now specified that the Eq. 24 does not describe E-E connections. We also agree that the reference (Ko et al. 2011) did not adequately support our claim and we thus removed it and revised the text on page 3 accordingly.

      (5) Pg. 3: "the relative weight of the metabolic cost over the encoding error controls the operating regime of the network" and "and an operating regime controlled by the metabolic constant" - what do you mean by operating regime here?

      We used the expression “operating regime” in the sense of a dynamical regime of the network.  However, we agree that this expression may be confusing and we removed it in revision. 

      (6) Pg. 3: "Previous studies interpreted changes of the metabolic constant beta as changes to the firing thresholds, which has less biological plausibility" - can the authors explain why this is less plausible, or ideally provide a reference for it?

      In biological networks, global variables such as brain state can strongly modulate the way neural networks respond to a feedforward stimulus. These variables influence neural activity in at least two distinct ways. One is by changing non-specific synaptic inputs to neurons, which is a network-wide effect (Destexhe and Pare, Nature Reviews Neurosci. 2003). This is captured in our model by changing the strength of the mean and fluctuations in the external currents. Beyond modulating synaptic currents, another way of modulating neural activity is by changing cell-intrinsic factors that modulate the firing threshold in biological neurons (Pozzorini et al. 2013). Previous studies on spiking networks with efficient coding interpreted the effect of the metabolic constant as changes to the firing threshold (Koren and Deneve, 2017, Gutierrez and Deneve 2019), which corresponds to cell-intrinsic factors. Here we instead propose that the metabolic constant modulates the neural activity by changing the non-specific synaptic input, homogeneously across all neurons in the network. Interpreting the metabolic constant as setting the mean of the non-specific synaptic input was necessary in our model to find an optimal set of parameters (as in Table 1) that is also biologically plausible. We revised the text accordingly (page 4).

      (7) Pg. 4: Competition across neurons: since the model lacks E-E connectivity, it seems trivial to conclude that there is competition through lateral inhibition, and it can be directly determined from the connectivity. What is gained from running these perturbation experiments?

      We agree that a reader with a good understanding of sparse / efficient coding theory can tell that there is competition across neurons with similar tuning already from the equation for the recurrent connectivity (Eq. 24). However, we presume that not all readers can see this from the equations and that it is worth showing this with simulations.

      Following the reviewer's comment, we have now downplayed the result about the model manifesting lateral inhibition in general on page 6. We have also removed its extensive elaboration in Discussion.

      One reason to run perturbation experiments was to test to what extent the optimal model qualitatively replicates empirical findings, in particular, single neuron perturbation experiments in Chettih and Harvey, 2019, without specifically tuning any of the model parameters. We found that the model reproduces qualitatively the main empirical findings, without tuning the model to replicate the data. We revised the text on page 5 accordingly.

      Further reason to run these experiments was to refine predictions about the minimal amount of connectivity structure that generates perturbation response profiles that are qualitatively compatible with empirical observations. To establish this, we did perturbation experiments while removing the connectivity structure of a particular connectivity sub-matrices (E-I, I-I or I-E; Fig. S3 F). This allowed us to determine which connectivity matrix has to be structured to observe results that qualitatively match empirical findings. We found that the structure of E-I and I-E connectivity is necessary, but not the structure of I-I connectivity. Finally, we tested partial removal of the connectivity structure where we replaced the precise (and optimal) connectivity structure and imposed a simpler connectivity rule. In the optimal connectivity, the connection strength is proportional to the tuning similarity. A simpler connectivity rule, in contrast, only specifies that neurons with similar tuning share a connection, and beyond this the connection strength is random. Running perturbation experiments in such a network obeying a simpler connectivity rule still qualitatively replicated empirical results from Chettih and Harvey (2019). This is shown on the Supplementary Fig. S2F on described on page 8.

      (8) Pg. 4: "the optimal E-I network provided a precise and unbiased estimator of the multidimensional and time-dependent target signal" - from previous work (e.g., Calaim et al. 2022), I would guess that the estimator is indeed biased by the metabolic cost. Why is this not the case here? Did you tune the output weights to remove this bias?

      Output weights were not tuned to remove the bias. On Fig. 1H in the first submission we plotted the bias for the network that minimizes the encoding error. We forgot to specify this in the text and figure caption, for which we apologize. We now replaced this figure with a new one (Fig. 1E) where we plot the bias of the network minimizing the average loss (with parameters as in Table 1). The bias of the network minimizing the error is close to zero, B^E = 0.02 and B^I = 0.03.  The bias of the network minimizing the loss is stronger and negative, B^E = -0.15 and B^I=-0.34. In the text of Results, we now report the bias of both networks (i.e., optimizing the encoding error and optimizing the loss). We also added a plot showing trial-averaged estimates and a time-dependent bias in each stimulus dimension (Supplementary figure S1 F). Note that the network minimizing the encoding error requires a lower metabolic constant (β = 6) than the network optimizing the loss (β=14), however, the optimal metabolic cost in both networks is nonzero. We revised the text and explained these points on page 5.

      (9) Pg. 4: "The distribution of firing rates was well described by a log-normal distribution" - I find this quite interesting, but it isn't clear to me how much this is due to the simulation of a finitetime noisy input. If the neurons all have equal tuning on the hypersphere, I would expect that the variability in firing is primarily due to how much the input correlates with their tuning. If this is true, I would guess that if you extend the duration of the simulation, the distribution would become tighter. Can you confirm that this is the stationary distribution of the firing rates?

      We now simulated the network with longer simulation time (10 seconds of simulated time instead of 2 seconds used previously) and also iterated the simulation across 10 trials to report a result that is general across random draws of tuning parameters (previously a single set of tuning parameters was used). The reviewer is correct that the distribution of firing rates of E neurons has become tighter with longer simulation time, but distributions remain log-normal. We also recomputed the coefficient of variation (CV) using the same procedure. We updated these plots on Fig. 1F.

      (10) Pg. 4: "We observed a strong average E-I balance" - based on the plots in Figure 1J, the inputs appear to be inhibition-dominated, especially for excitatory neurons. So by what criterion are you calling this strong average balance?

      The reviewer is correct about the fact that the net synaptic input to single neurons in our optimal network shows excess inhibition and the network is inhibition-dominated, so we revised this sentence (page 5) accordingly.  

      (11) Pg. 4: Stronger instantaneous balance in I neurons compared to E neurons - this is curious, and I have two questions: (1) can the authors provide any intuition or explanation for why this is the case in the model? and (2) does this relate to any literature on balance that might suggest inhibitory neurons are more balanced than excitatory neurons?

      In our model, I neurons receive excitatory and inhibitory synaptic currents through synaptic connections that are precisely structured. E neurons receive structured inhibition and a feedforward current. The feedforward current consists of M=3 independent OU processes projected on the tuning vectors of E neurons w<sub>i</sub><sup>E</sup>. We speculate that because the synaptic inhibition and feedforward current are different processes and the 3 OU inputs are independent, it is harder for E neurons to achieve the instantaneous balance that would be as precise as in I neurons. While we think that the feedforward current in our model reflects biologically plausible sensory processing, it is not a mechanistic model of feedforward processing. In biological neurons, real feedforward signals are implemented as a series of complex feedforward synaptic inputs from downstream areas, while the feedforward current in our model is a sum of stimulus features, and is thus a simplification of a biological process that generates feedforward signals. We speculate that a mechanistic implementation of the feedforward current could increase the instantaneous balance in E neurons.  Furthermore, the presence of EE connections could potentially also increase the instantaneous balance in E neurons. We revised the Discussion about these important questions that lie on the side of model limitations and could be advanced in future work. We could not find any empirical evidence directly comparing the instantaneous balance in E versus I neurons.  We have reported these considerations in the revised Discussion (page 16).

      (12) Pg. 5, comparison with random connectivity: "Randomizing E-I and I-E connectivity led to several-fold increases in the encoding error as well as to significant increases in the metabolic cost" and Discussion, pg. 11: "the structured network exhibits several fold lower encoding error compared to unstructured networks": I'm wondering if these comparisons are fair. First, regarding activity changes that affect the metabolic cost - it is known that random balanced networks can have global activity control, so it is not straightforward that randomizing the connectivity will change the metabolic cost. What about shuffling the weights but keeping an average balance for each neuron's input weights? Second, regarding coding error, it is trivial that random weights will not map onto the correct readout. A fairer comparison, in my opinion, would at least be to retrain the output weights to find the best-fitting decoder for the threedimensional signal, something more akin to a reservoir network.

      Thank you for raising these interesting questions. The purpose of comparing networks with and without connectivity structure was to observe causal effects of the connectivity structure on the neural activity. We agree that the effect on the encoding error is close to trivial, because shuffling of connectivity weights decouples neural dynamics from decoding weights. We have carefully considered Reviewer's suggestions to better compare the performance of structured and unstructured networks. 

      In reply to the first point, we followed the reviewer's suggestion and compared the optimal network with a shuffled network that matched the optimal network in its average balance. This was achieved by increasing the metabolic constant, decreasing the noise intensity and slightly decreasing the feedforward stimulus (we did not find a way to match the net current in both cell types by changing a single parameter). As we compared the metabolic cost between the optimal and the shuffled network with matched average balance, we still found lower metabolic cost in the optimal network, even though the difference was now smaller. We replaced Fig. 3B from the first submission with these new results in Fig. 4B and commented on them in the text (page 7).

      In reply to the second point, we followed reviewer’s suggestion and compared the encoding error (RMSE) of the optimal network and the network with shuffled connectivity where decoding weights are trained such as to optimally reconstruct the target signal. As suggested, we now analyzed the encoding error of the networks using decoding weights trained on the set of spike trains generated by the network using linear least square regression to minimize the decoding error. For a fair and quantitative comparison and because we did not train decoding weights of our structured model, we performed this same analysis using spike trains generated by networks with structured and shuffled recurrent connectivity. We found that the encoding error is smaller in the E population and much smaller in the I population in the structured compared to the random network. Decoding weights found numerically in the optimal network approach uniform distribution of weights that we used in our model (Fig. 4A, right). In contrast, decoding weights obtained from the random network do not converge to a uniform distribution, but instead form a much sparser distribution, in particular in I neurons (Supplementary Fig. S3 A). These additional results reported in the above mentioned figures are discussed in text on page 14.  

      (13) Pg. 5: "a shift from mean-driven to fluctuation-driven spiking" and Pg. 11 "a network structured as in our efficient coding solution operates in a dynamical regime that is more stimulus-driven, compared to an unstructured network that is more fluctuation driven" - I would expect that the balanced condition dictates that spiking is always fluctuation driven. I'm wondering if the authors can clarify this.

      We agree with the reviewer that networks with and without connectivity structure are fluctuation-driven, because in a mean-driven network the mean current must be suprathreshold (Ahmadian and Miller, 2021), which is not the case of either network. We removed the claim of the change from mean to fluctuation driven regime in the revised paper. We are grateful to the Reviewer for helping us tighten the elaboration of our findings.

      (14) Pg. 5: "suggesting that variability of spiking is independent of the connectivity structure" - the literature of balanced networks argues against this. Is this not simply because you have a noisy input? Can you test this claim?

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We tested this claim by measuring the coefficient of variation in networks receiving a constant stimulus. In particular, we set the same strength in each of the M=3 stimulus dimensions and set the stimulus amplitude such as to match the firing rate of the optimal network in response to the OU stimulus. We computed the coefficient of variation in 200 simulation trials.  The removal of connectivity structure did not cause significant change of the coefficient of variation in a network driven by a constant stimulus (Fig. 4E). These additional results are discussed in text on page 7. 

      We also taken the suggestion about variability of spiking being independent of the connectivity structure. We removed this claim in the revision, because we only tested a couple of specific cases where the connectivity is structured with respect to tuning similarity (fully structured, fully unstructured and partially unstructured networks). This is not exhaustive of all possible structures that recurrent connectivity may have.

      (15) Pg. 6: "we also removed the connectivity structure only partially, keeping like-to-like connectivity structure and removing all structure beyond like-to-like" - can you clarify what this means, perhaps using an equation? What connectivity structure is there besides like-to-like?

      In the optimal model, the strength of the synapse between a pair of neurons is proportional to the tuning similarity of the two neurons, Y<sub>ij</sub> proportional to J<sub>ij</sub> for Y<sub>ij</sub> >0 (see Eq. 24 and Fig. 1C(ii)). Besides networks with optimal connectivity, we also tested networks with a simpler connectivity rule. Such a simpler rule prescribes a connection if the pair of neurons has similar tuning (Y<sub>ij</sub> >0), and no connection otherwise. The strength of the connection following this simpler connectivity rule is otherwise random (and not proportional to pairwise tuning similarity Y<sub>ij</sub> as it is in the optimal network). We clarified this in the revision (page 8), also by avoiding the term “like-to-like” for the second type of networks, which could indeed be prone to confusion.

      (16) Pgs. 6-7: "we indeed found that optimal coding efficiency is achieved with weak adaptation in both cell types" and "adaptation in E neurons promotes efficient coding because it enforces every spike to be error- correcting" - this was not clear to me. First, it appears as though optimal efficiency is achieved without adaptation nor facilitation, i.e., when the time constants are all equal. Indeed, this is what is stated in Table 1. So is there really a weak adaptation present in the optimal case? Second, it seems that the network already enforces each spike to be errorcorrecting without adaptation, so why and how would adaptation help with this?

      We agree with the Reviewer that the network without adaptation in E and I neurons is already optimal. It is also true that most spikes in an optimal network should already be error-correcting (besides some spikes that might be caused by the noise). However, regimes with weak adaptation in E neurons remain close to optimality. Spike-triggered facilitation, meanwhile, ads spikes that are unnecessary and decrease network efficiency. We revised the Fig.5 (Fig. 4 in first submission) and replaced 2-dimensional plots in Fig.4 C-F with plots that show the differential effect of adaptation in E neurons (top) and in I neurons (bottom plots) for the measures of the encoding error (RMSE), the efficiency (average loss) and the firing rate (Fig. 5B-D). On the new Fig. 5C it is evident that the loss of E and I population grows slowly with adaptation in E neurons (top) while it grows faster with adaptation in I neurons (bottom). These considerations are explained in revised text on page 9.

      (17) Pg. 7: "adaptation in E neurons resulted in an increase of the encoding error in E neurons and a decrease in I neurons" - it would be nice if the authors could provide any explanation or intuition for why this is the case. Could it perhaps be because the E population has fewer spikes, making the signal easier to track for the I population?

      We agree that this could indeed be the case. We commented on it in revision (page 9).

      (18) Pg. 7: "The average balance was precise...with strong adaptation in E neurons, and it got weaker when increasing the adaptation in I neurons (Figure 4E)" - I found the wording of this a bit confusing. Didn't the balance get stronger with larger I time constants?

      By increasing the time constant of I neurons, the average imbalance got weaker (closer to zero) in E neurons (Fig. 5G, left), but stronger (further away from zero) in I neurons (Fig. 5G, right). We have revised the text on page 9 to make this clearer.

      (19) Pg. 7: Figure 4F is not directly described in the text.

      We have now added text (page 9) commenting on this figure in revision.

      (20) Pg. 8: "indicating that the recurrent network dynamics generates substantial variability even in the absence of variability in the external current" -- how does this observation relate to your earlier claim (which I noted above) that "variability of spiking is independent of connectivity structure"?

      We agree that the claim about variability of spiking being independent of connectivity structure was overstated and we thus removed it. The observation that we wanted to report is that both structured and unstructured networks have very similar levels of variability of spiking of single neurons. The fact that much of the variability of the optimal network is generated by recurrent connections is not incompatible. We revised the related text (page 11) for clarity.

      (21) Pg. 9: "We found that in the optimally efficient network, the mean E-I and I-E synaptic efficacy are exactly balanced" - isn't this by design based on the derivation of the network?

      True, the I-E connectivity matrix is the transpose of the E-I connectivity matrix, and their means are the same by the analytical solution. This however remains a finding of our study. We have clarified this in the revised text (page 12).

      (22) Pg. 30, eq. 25: the authors should verify if they include all possible connectivity here, or if they exclude EE connectivity beforehand.

      We now specify that the equation for recurrent connectivity (Eq. 24, Eq. 25 in first submission) does not include the E-E connectivity in the revised text (page 41).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Essential

      (1)  Currently, they measure the RMSE and cost of the E and I population separately, and the 1CT model. Then, they average the losses of the E and I populations, and compare that to the 1CT model, with the conclusion that the 1CT model has a higher average loss. However, it seems to me that only the E population should be compared to the 1CT model. The I population loss determines how well the I population can represent the E population representation (which it can do extremely well). But the overall coding accuracy of the network of the input signal itself is only represented by the E population. Even if you do combine the E and I losses, they should be summed, not averaged. I believe a more fair conclusion would be that the E/I networks have generally slightly worse performance because of needing to follow Dale's law, but are still highly efficient and precise nonetheless. Of course, I might be making a critical error somewhere above, and happy to be convinced otherwise!

      We carefully considered the reviewer's comment and tested different ways of combining the losses of the E and I population. We decided to follow the reviewer's suggestion and to compare the loss of the E population of the E-I model with the loss of the one cell type model. As evident already from the Fig. 8G, such comparison indeed changes the result to make the 1CT model more efficient. Also, the sum of losses of E and I neurons results in the 1CT model being more efficient than the E-I model. Note, however, the robustness of the E-I model to changes in the metabolic constant (Fig. 6C, top). The firing rates of the E-I model stay within physiological ranges for any value of the metabolic constant, while the firing rate of the 1CT model skyrocket for the metabolic constant that is lower than optimal (Fig. 8I).

      We added to Results (page 14) a summary of these findings.

      (2) The methods and main text should make much clearer what aspects of the derivation are novel, and which are not novel (see review weaknesses for specifics).

      We specified these aspects, as discussed in more detail in the above reply to point 4 of the public review of Reviewer 1.

      Request:

      If possible, I would like to see the code before publication and give recommendations on that (is it easy to parse and reproduce, etc.)

      We are happy to share the computer code with the reviewer and the community. We added a link to our public repository containing the computer code that we used for simulations and analysis to the preprint and submission (section “Code availability” on page 17). 

      Suggestions:

      (1) I believe that for an eLife audience, the main text is too math-heavy at the beginning, and it could be much simplified, or more effort could be made to guide the reader through the math.

      We tried to do our best to improve the clarity of description of mathematical expressions in the main text.

      (2) Generally vector notation makes network equations for spiking neurons much clearer and easier to parse, I would recommend using that throughout the paper (and not just in the supplementary methods).

      We now use vector notation throughout the paper whenever we think that this improves the intelligibility of the text. 

      (3) In the discussion or at the end of the results adding a clear section summarizing what the minimal requirements or essential assumptions are for biological networks to implement this theory would be helpful for experimentalists and theorists alike.

      We have added such a section in Discussion (page 15). 

      (5) I think the title is a bit too cumbersome and hard to parse. Might I suggest something like 'Efficient coding and energy use in biophysically realistic excitatory-inhibitory spiking networks' or 'Biophysically constrained excitatory-inhibitory spiking networks can efficiently implement efficient coding'.

      We followed reviewer’s suggestion and changed the title to “Efficient coding in biophysically realistic excitatory-inhibitory spiking networks.”

      (6) How the connections were shuffled exactly was not clear to me in how it was described now. Did they just take the derived connectivity, and shuffle the connections around? I recommend a more explicit methods section on it (I might have missed it).

      Indeed, the connections of the optimal network were randomly shuffled, without repetition, between all neuronal pairs of a specific connectivity matrix. This allows to preserve all properties of the distribution of connectivity weights and only removes the structure of the connectivity, which is precisely what we wanted to test. We now added a section in Methods (“Removal of connectivity structure”) on pages 51-52 where we explain how the connectivity structure is removed.

      (7) Figure 1 sub-panel ordering was confusing to read (first up down, then left right). Not sure if re- arranging is possible, but perhaps it could be A, B, and C at the top, with subsublabels (i) and (ii). Might become too busy though.

      We followed this suggestion and rearranged the Fig. 1 as suggested by the reviewer. 

      (8) Equation 3 in the main text should specify that 'y' stands for either E or I.

      This has been specified in the revision (page 3). 

      (9) Figure 1D shows a rough sketch of the types of connectivities that exist, but I would find it very useful to also see the actual connection strengths and the effect of enforcing Dale's law.

      We revised this figure (now Fig. 1B (ii)) and added connection strengths as well as a sketch of a connection that was removed because of Dale’s law.

      (10) The main text mentions how the readout weights are defined (normal distributions), but I think this should also be mentioned in the methods.

      Agreed. We indeed had Methods section “Parametrization of synaptic connectivity (page 46), where we explain how readout weights are defined. We apologize if a call on this section was not salient enough in the first submission. We made sure that the revised main text contains a clear pointer to this Methods section for details. 

      (11) The text seems to mix ‘decoding weights’ and ‘readout weights’.

      Thanks for this suggestion to use consistent language. We opted for ‘decoding weights’ and removed ‘readout weights’.

      (12) The way the paper is written makes it quite hard to parse what are new experimental predictions, and what results reproduce known features. I wonder if some sort of 'box' is possible with novel predictions that experimentalists could easily look at and design an experiment around.

      We now revised the text. We clarified for every property of the model if this property is a prediction of facts that were not yet experimentally tested or if it accounts for previously observed properties of biological neurons. Please see the reply to point 4 of Reviewer 1. 

      (13) Typo's etc.:

      Page 5 bottom -- ("all") should have one of the quotes change direction (common latex typo, seems to be the only place with the issue).

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this typo that has been removed in revision.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors investigated the anatomical features of the synaptic boutons in layer 1 of the human temporal neocortex. They examined the size of each synapse, the macular or perforated appearance, the size of the synaptic active zone, the number and volume of the mitochondria, and the number of synaptic and dense core vesicles, also differentiating between the readily releasable, the recycling, and the resting pool of synaptic vesicles. The coverage of the synapse by astrocytic processes was also assessed, and all the above parameters were compared to other layers of the human temporal neocortex. The authors conclude that the subcellular morphology of the layer 1 synapses are suitable for the functions of the neocortical layer, i.e. the synaptic integration within the cortical column. The low glial coverage of the synapses might allow increased glutamate spillover from the synapses, enhancing synaptic crosstalk within this cortical layer.

      Strengths:

      The strengths of this paper are the abundant and very precious data about the fine structure of the human neocortical layer 1. Quantitative electron microscopy data (especially that derived from the human brain) are very valuable since this is a highly time- and energy-consuming work. The techniques used to obtain the data, as well as the analyses and the statistics performed by the authors are all solid, strengthen this manuscript, and mainly support the conclusions drawn in the discussion.

      We would like to thank reviewer#1 for his very positive comments on our manuscript stating that such data about the fine structure of the human neocortex are are highly relevant.

      Weaknesses:

      There are several weaknesses in this work. First, the authors should check and review extensively for improvements to the use of English. Second, several additional analyses performed on the existing data could substantially elevate the value of the data presented. Much more information could be gained from the existing data about the functions of the investigated layer, of the cortical column, and about the information processing of the human neocortex. Third, several methodological concerns weaken the conclusions drawn from the results.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for his critical and thus helpful comments on our manuscript. We took the first comment of the reviewer concerning the English and have thus improved our manuscript by rephrasing and shortening sentences. Secondly, according to the reviewer several additional analyses should be performed on the existing data, which could substantially elevate the value of the data presented. We will implement some of the suggestions in the improved version of the manuscript where appropriate. We will address a more detailed answer to the reviewer’s queries in her/his suggestions to the authors (see below). However, the reviewer states himself: “The techniques used to obtain the data, as well as the analyses and the statistics performed by the authors are all solid, strengthen this manuscript, and mainly support the conclusions drawn in the discussion”.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The study of Rollenhagen et al. examines the ultrastructural features of Layer 1 of the human temporal cortex. The tissue was derived from drug-resistant epileptic patients undergoing surgery, and was selected as far as possible from the epilepsy focus, and as such considered to be non-epileptic. The analyses included 4 patients with different ages, sex, medication, and onset of epilepsy. The manuscript is a follow-on study with 3 previous publications from the same authors on different layers of the temporal cortex:

      Layer 4 - Yakoubi et al 2019 eLife

      Layer 5 - Yakoubi et al 2019 Cerebral Cortex

      Layer 6 - Schmuhl-Giesen et al 2022 Cerebral Cortex.

      They find, that the L1 synaptic boutons mainly have a single active zone, a very large pool of synaptic vesicles, and are mostly devoid of astrocytic coverage.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is well-written and easy to read. The Results section gives a detailed set of figures showing many morphological parameters of synaptic boutons and glial elements. The authors provide comparative data of all the layers examined by them so far in the Discussion. Given that anatomical data in the human brain are still very limited, the current manuscript has substantial relevance. The work appears to be generally well done, the EM and EM tomography images are of very good quality. The analysis is clear and precise.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for his very positive evaluation of our paper and the comments that such data have a substantial relevance, in particular in the human neocortex. In contrast to reviewer#1, this reviewer’s opinion is that the manuscript is well written and easy to read.

      Weaknesses:

      One of the main findings of this paper is that "low degree of astrocytic coverage of L1 SBs suggests that glutamate spillover and as a consequence synaptic cross-talk may occur at the majority of synaptic complexes in L1". However, the authors only quantified the volume ratio of astrocytes in all 6 layers, which is not necessarily the same as the glial coverage of synapses. In order to strengthen this statement, the authors could provide 3D data (that they have from the aligned serial sections) detailing the percentage of synapses that have glial processes in close proximity to the synaptic cleft, that would prevent spillover.

      We agree with the reviewer that we only quantified the volume ratio of the astrocytic coverage but not necessarily the percentage of synapses that may or not contribute to the formation of the ‘tripartite’ synapse. As suggested, we will re-analyze our material with respect to the percentage of coverage for individual synaptic boutons in each layer and will implement the results in the improved version of the manuscript. However, since this is a completely new analysis that is time-consuming we would like to ask the reviewer for additional time to perform this task.

      A specific statement is missing on whether only glutamatergic boutons were analyzed in this MS, or GABAergic boutons were also included. There is a statement, that they can be distinguished from glutamatergic ones, but it would be useful to state it clearly in the Abstract, Results, and Methods section what sort of boutons were analyzed. Also, what is the percentage of those boutons from the total bouton population in L1?

      We would like to thank the reviewer for this comment. Although our title clearly states, we focused on quantitative 3D-models of excitatory synaptic boutons, we will point out that more clearly in the Methods and Result chapters. Our data support recent findings by others (see for example Cano-Astorga et al. 2023, 2024; Shapson-Coe et al. 2024) that have evaluated the ratio between excitatory vs. inhibitory synaptic boutons in the temporal lobe neocortex, the same area as in our study, which was between 10-15% inhibitory terminals but with a significant layer and region specific difference. We will include the excitatory vs. inhibitory ratio and the corresponding citations in the Results section.

      Synaptic vesicle diameter (that has been established to be ~40nm independent of species) can properly be measured with EM tomography only, as it provides the possibility to find the largest diameter of every given vesicle. Measuring it in 50 nm thick sections results in underestimation (just like here the values are ~25 nm) as the measured diameter will be smaller than the true diameter if the vesicle is not cut in the middle, (which is the least probable scenario). The authors have the EM tomography data set for measuring the vesicle diameter properly.

      We partially disagree with the reviewer on this point. Using high-resolution transmission electron microscopy, we measured the distance from the outer-to-outer membrane only on those synaptic vesicles that were round in shape with a clear ring-like structure to avoid double counts and discarded all those that were only partially cut according to criteria developed by Abercrombie (1946) and Boissonnat (1988). We assumed that within a 55±5 nm thick ultrathin section (silver to gray interference contrast) all clear-ring-like vesicles were distributed in this section assuming a vesicle diameter between 25 to 40nm. For large DCVs, double-counts were excluded by careful examination of adjacent images and were only counted in the image where they appeared largest.

      In addition, we have measured synaptic vesicles using TEM tomography and came to similar results. We will address this in Material and Methods that both methods were used.

      It is a bit misleading to call vesicle populations at certain arbitrary distances from the presynaptic active zone as readily releasable pool, recycling pool, and resting pool, as these are functional categories, and cannot directly be translated to vesicles at certain distances. Indeed, it is debated whether the morphologically docked vesicles are the ones, that are readily releasable, as further molecular steps, such as proper priming are also a prerequisite for release.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. However, nobody before us tried to define a morphological correlate for the three functionally defined pools of synaptic vesicles since synaptic vesicles normally are distributed over the entire nerve terminal. As already mentioned above, after long and thorough discussions with Profs. Bill Betz, Chuck Stevens, Thomas Schikorski and other experts in this field we tried to define the readily releasable (RRP), recycling (RP) and resting pools by measuring the distance of each synaptic vesicle to the presynaptic density (PreAZ). Using distance as a criterion, we defined the RRP including all vesicles that were located within a distance (perimeter) of 10 to 20 nm from the PreAZ that is less than an average vesicle diameter (between 25 to 40 nm). The RP was defined as vesicles within a distance of 60-200 nm away, still quite close but also rapidly available on demand and the remaining ones beyond 200 nm were suggested to belong to the resting pool. This concept was developed for our first publication (Sätzler et al. 2002) and this approximation since then is very much acknowledged by scientist working in the field of synaptic neuroscience and computational neuroscientist. We were asked by several labs worldwide whether they can use our data of the perimeter analysis for modeling. We agree that our definition of the three pools can be seen as arbitrary but we never claimed that our approach is the truth but nothing as the truth. Concerning the debate whether only docked vesicles or also those very close the PreAZ should constitute the RRP we have a paper in preparation using our perimeter analysis, EM tomography and simulations trying to clarify this debate. Our preliminary results suggest that the size of the RRP should be reconsidered.

      Tissue shrinkage due to aldehyde fixation is a well-documented phenomenon that needs compensation when dealing with density values. The authors cite Korogod et al 2015 - which actually draws attention to the problem comparing aldehyde fixed and non-fixed tissue, still the data is non-compensated in the manuscript. Since all the previous publications from this lab are based on aldehyde fixed non-compensated data, and for this sake, this dataset should be kept as it is for comparative purposes, it would be important to provide a scaling factor applicable to be able to compare these data to other publications.

      We thank the reviewer for his suggestion. However, for several reasons we did not correct for shrinkage caused by aldehyde fixation. There are papers by Eyre et al. (2007) and the mentioned paper by Korogod et al. 2015 that have demonstrated that cryo-fixation reveals larger numbers of docked synaptic vesicles, a smaller glial volume, and a less intimate glial coverage of synapses and blood vessels compared to chemical fixation. Other structural subelements such as active zone size and shape and the total number of synaptic vesicles remained unaffected. In two further publications Zhao et al. (2012a, b) investigating hippocampal mossy fiber boutons using cryo-fixation and substitutions came to similar results with respect to bouton and active zone size and number and diameter of synaptic vesicles compared to aldehyde-fixation as described by Rollenhagen et al. 2007 for the same nerve terminal. This was one of the reasons not correcting for shrinkage. In addition, all cited papers state that chemical fixation in general provides a much better ultrastructural preservation of tissue samples when compared with cryo-fixation and substitution where optimal preservation is only regional within a block of tissue and therefore less suitable for large-scale ultrastructural analyses as we performed.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Rollenhagen et al. offer a detailed description of layer 1 of the human neocortex. They use electron microscopy to assess the morphological parameters of presynaptic terminals, active zones, vesicle density/distribution, mitochondrial morphology, and astrocytic coverage. The data is collected from tissue from four patients undergoing epilepsy surgery. As the epileptic focus was localized in all patients to the hippocampus, the tissue examined in this manuscript is considered non-epileptic (access) tissue.

      Strengths:

      The quality of the electron microscopic images is very high, and the data is analyzed carefully. Data from human tissue is always precious and the authors here provide a detailed analysis using adequate approaches, and the data is clearly presented.

      We are very thankful to the reviewer upon his very positive comments about our data analysis and presentation.

      Weaknesses:

      The study provides only morphological details, these can be useful in the future when combined with functional assessments or computational approaches. The authors emphasize the importance of their findings on astrocytic coverage and suggest important implications for glutamate spillover. However, the percentage of synapses that form tripartite synapses has not been quantified, the authors' functional claims are based solely on volumetric fraction measurements.

      We thank the reviewer for his critical comments on our findings concerning the layer-specific astrocytic coverage as also suggested by reviewer#2. As already stated above we will analyze the astrocytic coverage and the layer-specific percentage of astrocytic contribution to the ‘tripartite’ synapse in more detail. We are, however, a bit puzzled about the comment that structural anatomists usually receive that our study only provides morphological details. Our thorough analysis of structural and synaptic parameters of synaptic boutons underlie and might even predict the function of synaptic boutons in a given microcircuit or network and will thus very much improve our understanding and knowledge about the functional properties of these structures, in particular in the human brain where such studies are still quite rare. The main goal of our studies in the human neocortex was the quantitative morphology of synaptic boutons and thus the synaptic organization of the cortical column, layer by layer which to our knowledge is the first such detailed study undertaken in the human brain. Our efforts have set a golden standard in the analysis of synaptic boutons embedded in different microcircuits und is meanwhile internationally very well accepted.

      The distinction between excitatory and inhibitory synapses is not clear, they should be analyzed separately.

      As already stated above in response to reviewer#1 our study focused on excitatory synaptic boutons since they represent the majority of synapses. However, in the improved version of our manuscript in the Material and Method section we included a paragraph with structural criteria to distinguish excitatory from inhibitory terminals (see also our comment to reviewer#1 concerning this point) including appropriate citations.

      The text connects functional and morphological characteristics in a very direct way. For example, connecting plasticity to any measurement the authors present would be rather difficult without any additional functional experiments. References to various vesicle pools based on the location of the vesicles are also more complex than suggested in the manuscript. The text should better reflect the limitations of the conclusions that can be drawn from the authors' data.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. However, it has been shown by meanwhile numerous publications that the shape and size of the active zone together with the pool of synaptic vesicles and the astrocytic coverage critically determines synaptic transmission and synaptic strength, but can also contribute to the modulation of synaptic plasticity (see also citations within the text). It has been shown that synaptic boutons can switch upon certain stimulation conditions to different modes of release (uni- vs. multiquantal, uni- vs multivesicular release) and from asynchronous to synchronous release leading also to the modulation of synaptic short- and long-term plasticity. To the second comment: When we started with our first paper about the Calyx of Held – principal neuron synapse in the MNTB (Sätzler et al. 2002) we tried to define a morphological correlate for the three functionally defined pools. As already mentioned above in our reply to the other two reviewers, this is rather difficult since synaptic vesicles are normally distributed over the entire nerve terminal. After long and thorough discussions with Bill Betz, Chuck Stevens and other leading scientist in the field of synaptic neuroscience, we together with Bert Sakmann tried to define a morphological correlate for the functionally defined pools using a perimeter analysis. We defined the readily releasable pool as vesicles 10 to 20 nm away from the presynaptic active zone, the recycling pool as those in 60-200 nm distance and the remaining as those belonging to the resting pool. However, it has been shown by capacitance measurements (see for example Hallermann et al 2003), FM1-43 investigations (see for example Henkel et al. 1996) and high-resolution electron microscopy (see for example Schikorski and Stevens 2001; Schikorski 2014) that our estimate of the RRP nearly perfectly matches with the functionally defined pools at hippocampal and cortical synapses (Silver et al. 2003). In addition, in one of our own papers (Rollenhagen et al. 2018) we also estimated the RP functionally from trains of EPSPs using an exponential fit analysis and came to similar results upon its size using the perimeter analysis.

      Of course, as stated by the reviewer the scenario could be more complex, using other criteria but we never claimed that our morphologically defined pools are the truth but nothing as the truth but we believe it offers a quite good approximation.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Abstract:

      Avoid the numerous abbreviations in the abstract. The paragraph describing the results obtained in this study is too short. Include more results, such as the size of the active zone, the proportion of perforated synapses, the ratio of synapses terminating on dendrites/spines, the percentage of volume occupied by mitochondria, etc. In the last paragraph, compare the layer-specific data to other layers of the neocortex before writing the concluding sentence.

      To meet the word limits of the abstract (150 words) defined by eLife we had to use abbreviations. We followed the suggestions by the reviewer and expanded our abstract by adding the proportion of macular vs. perforated active zone and the percentage of mitochondria within an SB. However, we did not include the comparison of structural parameters in the Abstract since this is discussed thoroughly in the MS at other places (see Results and Discussion).

      Results:

      First of all, wonderful data! Lots of work, very valuable quantitative electron microscopy results.

      Main concerns:

      Adding several analyses would give much more information about the cortical synaptic organization. It would be very useful to differentiate between excitatory and inhibitory terminals (and give their ratio) and include this information in all different analyses, such as in the SV number, SV pool analysis, mitochondrion analysis, etc., that would give functional information as well. You have all the data for this, and you know how to differentiate between inhibitory and excitatory synapses, it can be done. We could see the possible morphological differences between excitatory and inhibitory synapses (maybe one is larger/has more SVs, etc. than the other). Based on these possible differences conclusions could be drawn about functional hypotheses, such as one or the other is more efficient in inducing postsynaptic potentials, excitation or inhibition is more pronounced in layer 1, etc. Furthermore, looking at the ratio of perforated synapses, we could gain information about the formation of new synapses. Maybe there is a difference between excitatory and inhibitory circuits in this point of view.

      To the first point: Since our focus was on excitatory synaptic boutons as already stated in the title we have not analyzed inhibitory SBs. To do so, we have to re-analyze our complete data which is time-consuming and an additional workload. However, we can give a ratio excitatory vs. inhibitory synaptic boutons which was between 10-15% but with layer-specific differences. Our finding are in good agreement with a recent publication in Science by the Lichtman group (Shapson-Coe et al. 2024) and work by the DeFelipe group (Cano-Astorga et al. 2023, 2024) estimating the number of inhibitory boutons in different layers of the temporal lobe neocortex as we did by 10-15%. We included a small paragraph about inhibitory synapses, their percentage and included the citations in our Results section. Concerning the ratio between macular, non-perforated vs. perforated active zones we stated the majority of synaptic boutons were of the macular, non-perforated type (~75%; see improved version of the MS). If perforated, this was found predominantly on the postsynaptic site, but quite rare in L1 SBs. Since GABAergic terminals had only a small or no clearly visible PSD this would be hard to look at.

      To the last point, it has been demonstrated that the number of dense core vesicles and their fusion with the presynaptic density could be a critical factor in the build-up of the active zone. In addition, the findings of the Geinismann group suggesting that perforated synapses are more efficient than non-perforated ones is nowadays very controversially discussed since other factors such as size of the active zone (see for example Matz et al. 2010; Holderith et al. 2012) and the astrocytic coverage contribute to synaptic efficacy and strength.

      Related to this topic: although in the case of rat CA1 pyramidal cells all inhibitory synapses terminated on dendritic shafts (Megias et al., Neuroscience 2001), please be aware that both excitatory and inhibitory synapses can terminate on both dendritic shafts and spines in humans (inhibitory synapses are though rare on spines, usually less than 10%, but they do exist, see for example Wittner et al, Neuroscience, 2001). Please, define the excitatory/inhibitory nature of the synapses based on morphological features (not on their postsynaptic target), i.e., flattened vesicles and thin postsynaptic density for GABAergic synapses, whereas larger, round vesicles and thick postsynaptic density for glutamatergic synapses. Anyway, the ratio of excitatory and inhibitory synapses on dendrites and spines in the two sublamina would also give useful information about the synaptic organization of the human neocortical layer 1.

      We are aware that not all terminals targeting on spines are excitatory, in turn it has been shown that not all terminals on shafts were inhibitory as long thought (Silver et al. 2003). However, as stated by the reviewer their abundancy on spines is rather low. At the moment it is rather unclear which functional impact inhibitory terminals on spines have, despite a local inhibition (see for example Kubota et al. eLife 2015), and thus their role is rather speculative since excitatory synapses are the predominant class on dendritic spines. As already stated above the ratio of excitatory vs. inhibitory terminals is between 10-15% and not significantly different between the two sublaminae. We are willing to add this in the results section (see in the improved version of the manuscript).

      (2) About the glial coverage: Please, specify how glial elements were determined. What were the morphological features specific to astroglial processes? In Figure 5, how could we know whether the glial element marked by green is not a spine neck? The lack of morphological features specific to glial processes makes this analysis weak. The most accurate would be to make it with the aid of GFAP staining. I know this is not possible with your existing data, but at least, provide information on how glial processes were identified.

      We used the criteria first described by Peters et al. (1991) and Ventura and Harris (1999) identifying astrocytic profiles by their irregular stellate shape, relatively clear cytoplasm, numerous glycogen granules and bundles of intermediate filaments. After more than 20 years of structural investigations, we hope that the reviewers will believe us that we can identify astrocytic processes at the high-resolution TEM level. In some of our publications (Rollenhagen et al. 2007; 2015; 2018; Yakoubi et al. 2019a) we have used glutamine synthetase pre-embedding immunhistochemistry to identify astrocytic processes, but a disadvantage of this method is the reduction of the ultrastructural preservation of the tissue. We have included the criteria to identify astrocytic processes of glial coverage in our manuscript together with the two citations (see improved version of the manuscript).

      (3) The authors state that the total number of SVs was very variable. How was the distribution of the number of SVs? Homogenous distribution suggests that different types of synapses cannot be distinguished based on their morphological features, whereas distribution with more than one peak would suggest that different types of synapses are present in L1, and that they can be differentiated by their appearance (number of SVs, for example). This might be also related to the type of synapse (i.e., excitatory or inhibitory). The same applies to the number of RP and resting pool SVs.

      To look for differences in structural and synaptic parameters that can further classify synaptic boutons we have performed a hierarchical cluster and multivariance analysis. However, it turned out that according to structural and functional parameters no further classification into subtypes could be done.

      (4) The authors should check and review extensively for improvements to the use of English. The Results and Discussion sections contain many sentences which are not easy to understand. They have either a too complicated structure, or they are incomplete and hard to follow. Few examples: "The RRP/PreAZ at p20 nm criterium was on average 19.05 {plus minus} 17.23 SVs (L1a: 25.04 {plus minus} 21.09 SVs and L1b: 13.07 {plus minus} 13.87SVs) and thus nearly 2-fold larger for L1a." If you take out the parenthesis, the sentence has no meaning. "The majority of SBs in L1 of the human TLN had a single at most three AZs that could be of the non-perforated macular or perforated type comparable with results for other layers in the human TLN but by ~1.5-fold larger than in rodent and non-human primates." Rephrase these types of sentences, please.

      We partially agree with the reviewer. We have improved our manuscript by rephrasing and shortening sentences.

      Other suggestions:

      (1) Put the synaptic density part after the description of the neuronal and synaptic composition part, it is more logical this way (i.e., first qualitative description, the distinction between sublayers, then quantitative data). Please write down in the description of the neuronal and synaptic composition part how L1a and L1b were differentiated (see also my comment on Figure 1).

      We agree with the reviewer and did the change according to the suggestion. For a better understanding, we have also expanded the neuronal and synaptic description of the two sublaminae in L1.

      (2) Introduce a list of abbreviations at the beginning, that would help.

      It is quite unusual to provide a list of abbreviations in eLife. However, when used first the full meaning of the abbreviations is now given.

      (3) What is cleft width? Usually, it refers to the distance between the pre- and the postsynaptic membrane, but here, I think it refers to the size (diameter) of the active zone. Please, clarify in the Result section (as it appears earlier than the Methods section, where it is explained). I would probably use the expression "synaptic cleft size" instead of "synaptic cleft width" to avoid misunderstanding.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion and used synaptic cleft size for better clarity and have transferred the sentence from the Material and Methods to the Results section.

      (4) The description of the different SVs (RRP, RP, etc.) is not clear in lines 236-242. What does it mean, that RRP vesicles are located {less than or equal to}10 nm and {less than or equal to}20 nm from the active zone? Explain, why the two different distance criteria were used. Furthermore, how were the vesicles located at p20-p60 defined? Why were these vesicles not considered in the determination of the different pools?

      As stated in the public review to the reviewers concern we have tried to define a morphological correlate to the three functionally defined pools. After thorough discussions, with leading scientists in the field of synaptic neuroscience we have decided to use the distance of individual vesicles from the PreAZ and sort vesicles upon these criteria. One can argue that this approach is random, however, these distance criteria were described by Rizzoli and Betz (2004, 2005) and Denker and Rizzoli (2010). As also stated in the public review there is still a controversial discussion whether only docked or omega-shaped SVs constitute the RRP. We decided that also those very close within 10 and 20 nm away from the PreAZ, which is less than a SV diameter may also contribute to the RRP since it was shown that SVs are quite mobile.

      (5) Please, explain how the number of docked vesicles can be 3x larger in L1b, than the number of vesicles located at p10? Docked vesicles are the closest (with the membrane touching the PreAZ)... if this comes from the fact that another pool of boutons was used for the EM tomography analysis, then the entire pool of boutons analyzed, then it means that the selection of boutons for the EM tomography is highly biased. This also implies that EM tomography data are most probably not valid for the entire L1b. The difference might also come from the different ratios of dendrite/spine synapses included in the two different analyses. In this case, it would be helpful to distinguish between synapses terminating on dendrites/spines and analyse them separately (same as for inhibitory/excitatory, which is not exactly the same as dendrite/spine!). Different n numbers of synapses are given in the text (n=25, 25, 25 25) and in Table 2 (n=91, 98, 87, and 84) for the analysis of the docked vesicles, please, correct this.

      This is a correct value and thus there is a nearly 3-fold difference. The TEM tomography was carried out on the same blocks that have been used for our 3D-volume reconstructions. To carry out TEM tomography we had to use thicker sections (250 nm) to look for complete SBs as we also did in our serial sections, but of course, we could not quantify the same SBs. The completeness of SBs was one of our main criteria to reconstruct structural and synaptic parameters. The second was that the synaptic cleft was cut perpendicular. Only SBs that met these criteria were chosen for further quantitative analysis. In this respect we are of course biased in both methods.

      Secondly, as already stated we did not quantify inhibitory terminals in serial sections. However, we did not find significant differences between shaft vs. spine synapses.

      Finally, in Table 2 the total number of ‘docked’ SVs is given analyzed from the total number of SBs analyzed.

      Discussion:

      Please include the recent findings of human L1 neurons, including the "rosehip" cells in the L1 neuronal network, see Boldog et al., Nat Neurosci 2018. It would be also useful to consider in the discussion the human-specific cortical synchrony and integration phenomena derived from in vitro data (Mansvelder, Lein, Tamas, Wittner, Larkum, Huberfeld labs, etc.), and how the synaptic morphology can be related to these.

      We thank the reviewer and include the reference in our chapter functional significance.

      Figures and Tables:

      Figure 1: In the legend, it is written that CR cells are marked by an asterisk, but on the figure it is marked by arrowheads. H: I would put the dashed line slightly lower, just above the two neuronal cell bodies. Now it looks like in the middle of the astrocytic layer. One of the asterisks marking the CR cell is not above the nucleus of that cell. I: the gabaergic neuron is outside of the framed area. I would delete the frame, anyway, the arrowheads and the asterisk are enough to show what the authors want to show.

      We have changed the Figure according to the suggestions raised by the reviewer.

      Figure 3: The transparent yellow is not visible. It is a bit disturbing that the contours of the boutons are not visible, I would make the transparent yellow stronger (less transparent). The SVs in green/magenta will be still visible.

      We wanted to highlight the internal subelements of SBs and thus made the covering transparent but we think it is still visible.

      Figure 6C: The data concerning other layers than L1 are most probably taken from other publications of the research group. One is cited (for L6), but not the others. Please correct this, or if not, then write this in the Results and Methods.

      We changed the citation in the improved version of the manuscript. We overlooked that the values for L4 and L5 were already published in Schmuhl-Giesen et al. 2022.

      Table 1: What does central and lateral cleft width mean in Table 1? Furthermore, please, give the name for abbreviations CV and IQR in Tables 1 and 2.

      The measurements of the synaptic cleft are now described in detail in the Results section. We now have given the full names for CV and IQR in the legends of tables 1 and 2.

      Supplemental Figures 1 and 2: Why Hu01 and Hu02 are twice? What is the difference? Based on the figure legend, it is L1a and L1b? If yes, please, indicate on the figure or in the legend.<br /> Supplemental Table 1: What is TLE in the case of Hu_04? If it is temporal lobe epilepsy, then why age at epilepsy onset is missing?

      Yes, Hu01 and Hu02 were selected for both L1a and L1b in separate serial sections preparations each. We indicated this now in the figure legend. Concerning Hu_04, unfortunately we do not have any further information about the medical background of the patient.

      Supplemental Table 1 (Patient table), that there are many abbreviations explained which do not appear in the table (lBAZ: Brivaracetam CBZ: Carbamazepine; CLB: Clobazam; ESL: Eslicarbazepin; GGL: Ganglioglioma, etc.), please check and correct.

      We have removed the unnecessary abbreviations.

      Other minor suggestions:

      What is Pr? Please, give the name a first appearance (line 368).

      We explained Pr (release probability) when used for the first time.

      Give the name for t-LDT, please (lines 442-443).

      We explained t-LTD (timing-dependent long-term depression) when used for the first time.

      Typo in line 169: DCW instead of DCV (dense core vesicle), DCV is used in the figure legends.

      We changed DCW to DCV.

      Typo in line 190: Yokoubi instead of Yakoubi (reference).

      We changed Yokoubi to Yakoubi.

      Typo in line 237: Rizzoloi instead of Rizzoli (reference).

      We changed Rizzoloi to Rizzoli.

      Line 229-230: One reference is not inserted properly - Piccolo and Bassoon.

      The reference of Schoch and Gundelfinger and Murkherjee to the build-up of the active zone and the role of DCV containing Piccolo and Bassoon are properly cited in the text.

      Typo in line 398: exit instead of exist.

      Corrected

      Typo in line 700: Reynolds (1063) instead of 1963.

      Corrected

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Abstract:

      The last sentence seems far-fetched, and unrelated to the manuscript. How mostly single active zone boutons can "mediate, integrate and synchronize contextual and cross-modal information, enabling flexible and state-dependent processing of feedforward sensory inputs from other layers of the cortical column"? Which of the anatomical findings of the manuscript led to these conclusions?

      According to the review by Schuman et al. (2021) layer 1 is regarded as a layer that mediate, integrate and synchronize contextual and cross-modal information, enabling flexible and state-dependent processing of feedforward sensory inputs from other layers of the cortical column to which the structural quantitative 3D- models of SBs contribute since they are an integral element connecting neurons and building networks.

      I am also puzzled by the authors' statement in more than one place of the manuscript that "L1a can be characterized as a predominantly astrocytic sublamina". If the L1 contains the lowest measured volume ratio of glial processes (Figure 6), then this description does not seem to hold. Please rephrase.

      The reviewer is right and we rephrased the sentences for more clarity in the improved version of our manuscript.

      Results:

      The authors find large inter-patient variability in the synapse density at L1, which raises the issue of what were the criteria to include certain patients in the analyses. Apparently, these are different from the ones analysed in their previous papers, and all the provided parameters were different (sex, age, medication, onset of epilepsy), and any of them can result in altered synapse density.

      First, we have not used all patients for this study. Secondly, it was not possible to use all patients for all six layers.

      It would be useful to add a panel for Figure 1 with synapse density across the different layers, as they provide this data in the Discussion.

      We implemented a Supplementary Table 1 with the synaptic density values over all layers compared in the Discussion.

      I cannot find Source Data 1 in the manuscript although it is referred to in more than 1 place (e.g. page 5 line 100).

      Source data were uploaded when our manuscript was submitted directly to eLife as Supplemental Material. However, as stated by bioRxiv ‘any Supplemental Materials associated with this manuscript have not been transferred to bioRxiv to avoid the posting of potentially sensitive information’ all source data have not been uploaded to the preprint server.

      Page 5 line 100 the correct value is 7.3*107 or rather 108?

      We corrected the value in the improved version of the MS.

      It would be nice to put the synapse density values into context by comparing them to e.g. mouse, rat, or monkey data.

      Since we are working on the human temporal lobe neocortex we avoided to compare those data with those estimated in experimental animals. In addition as discussed by DeFelipe et al. (1999) different methods were used to quantify synaptic density in experimental animals so these results are difficult to compare.

      Page 5 Line 117 CR-cells stands for Cayal-Retzius cells?

      CR-cells is the abbreviation for Cajal-Retzius cells.

      Page 6 Line 146 repeated sentence.

      We deleted the repeated sentence.

      Page 7 Line 154 "file-scale TEM" ??

      We replaced file-scale by fine-scale.

      Page 7 Line 164 "GABAergic synapses identified by the smaller more spherical SVs". With this fixation condition, GABAergic vesicles are more ovoid than glutamatergic ones. What were the criteria to distinguish them?

      To our knowledge in meanwhile numerous publications using the same fixation inhibitory terminals contain more spherical and smaller and not roundish synaptic vesicles and showed no clear prominent PSDs as described in our paper. We have addressed that more clearly in the results section of the improved version of the MS.

      Page 8 line 197 "The majority (~98%) of SBs in L1a and L1b had only a single (Figures 2C-E, 3A-C, E) at most two or three AZs" is in striking contrast with the other statement from page 7 Line 163 "Numerous SBs in both sublaminae were seen to establish either two or three synaptic contacts on the same spine or dendrite". Which of these statements is valid? Please provide exact quantification for this statement and decide which one is true.

      It is true that the majority of synaptic boutons had a single active zone. However, for example on a spine not only a single but also two or three SBs can be found. We have rephrased this sentence for more clarity.

      Page 9 Line 206 "L1 AZs did not show a large variability in size as indicated by the low SD, CV, and variance (Table 1)" Is this inter-patient variance of mean values? As in Supplementary Figure 1, both the SBs volume and PreAZ area show large variability in a given patient sample. Only the inter-patient variability of mean values seems low. Please state it clearly throughout the MS for other datasets as well.

      For clarity concerning the variability between patients and structural parameters we have generated box plots (Suppl. Figures 1 and 2).

      Page 9 Line 208 data is on Figure 5A and not 8A.

      We thank the reviewer and corrected the citation of the Figure

      Page 12 Line 295 how can the number of docked vesicles for L1b be larger than the one measured by the perimeter p10 nm? This later should contain the docked and PreAZ membrane proximal pool as well. This difference is even larger if we assume, that at EM tomography only partial AZs were analysed in a 200 nm thick section, not the entire AZ as for the perimeter measurement. Can the authors provide density estimates by dividing the docked / p10 nm vesicle numbers with the AZ area and comparing them?

      This is a result comparing both methods. To the second concern: As stated in the text only synaptic boutons were the active zone can be followed from the beginning to its end and were the synaptic cleft was cut perpendicular were included in the TEM tomography sample as we also did in our 3D-volume reconstructions.

      Methods:

      Page 25 Line 624 While the PSD area can be equivocally measured, due to the dense appearance of the PSD on the EM images, the PreAZ is more difficult to outline due to lack of evident anatomical markers except the synaptic cleft (the dense material is much thinner). That is why in many publications the PreAZ area is considered to be identical to the PSD area. What are the anatomical criteria used here for the PreAZ? Why do the authors correct the PSD area, which is easy to measure with the PreAZ area that is much less certain to outline?

      As stated in material and Methods both the pre- and postsynaptic densities are not defined by placing a closed contour in both densities because one can’t be certain that the dense accumulation of particles defining both areas since the impregnation (staining) and contrast of both structures critically depends on the uranyl and lead staining which could led to misinterpretation due to different staining results. That’s why we have drawn a contour line from the beginning to the end of the presynaptic density and extrapolated that for the postsynaptic density (for details see Material and Methods). In our samples both the pre- and postsynaptic densities were always clearly visible in those boutons further analyze.

      Page 26 Line 640 vesicle density measurement: All the synaptic vesicles that are in the 50 nm thick section in their entirety are missed, and there are methods based on EM tomography to correct these estimations. One can not assume, that the error caused by "double counts" of vesicles cancels for the lost ones. There are stereological methods to estimate both types of error please include them and correct the values.

      We would like to point out that the whole body of our work to structural analysis of vesicle pools is based on image data stemming from transmission electron microscopy (TEM) generating a projection of the entire volume of the ultra-thin section and NOT from scanning electron microscopy (SEM) where only a small volume close to the surface of the section would be captured. Operating in TEM mode ensures that no vesicle is missed only because it is embedded in its entirety in the section as postulated by the reviewer. Hence, EM tomography, which is basically a TEM operating from different incident angles in relation to the specimen or section, does not provide any advantage in detecting these vesicles. It does, however, help to better position a 3D object within the section volume itself and therefore allows to detect objects that could overlap from one viewing angle by using another angle. As the average vesicle diameter is of similar size compared to the section thickness, the possibility of a complete overlap to happen, however, is almost zero. And as we only count clear ring-like structures, a stereological correction factor calculated according to Abercrombie (1946) would underestimate real counts (see also Saetzler et al. 2002). If there is, however, relevant literature on "methods based on EM tomography" and "stereological methods to estimate both types of error" (over- and underestimates) that we are missing out on, we would appreciate the reviewer providing us with the corresponding references so that we can include such calculations in our paper.

      Page 27 Line 664 and 665 "sections" are still tissue blocks, as sectioning comes after if the process is correctly written. Please correct.

      We have corrected this according to the reviewer’s comment.

      Page 43 Figure 4 D Data for L1b is missing, only the correlation line is visible.

      Corrected in a new Figure.

      Page 44 Figure 5 C arrowheads are in the correct places? Some of them do not seem to point to the edge of the synapse.

      We carefully checked the Figure and adjusted the arrowheads.

      Figure 5 E lower arrowhead labels something, that is difficult to identify but does not seem to be a vesicle.

      We agree with the reviewer on this point and changed the figure accordingly.

      Figure 5 F, the upper vesicle is at least 10 nm apart from the PreAZ membrane. Did the authors consider it as docked (indicated with arrowhead, according to the legend it labels docked vesicles)?

      We agree with the reviewer on this point and changed the figure accordingly.

      Page 45 Figure 6 B one of the 2 synaptic boutons (sb), sb2 has a tangential active zone that precludes the identification of the pre- and post-synaptic membranes, still 2 "docked vesicles" are labeled. How were they classified as docked? Please remove these tangential synapses from the dataset, as membranes can not be identified.

      The reviewer is right that the active zone is tangentially cut, however, the two vesicles are associated with the AZ. In addition, we did not use this AZ for vesicle data analysis.

      Page 46 Line 1124 interneuron axon labelled in green not brown.

      Corrected as suggested by the reviewer.

      Line 1129 SStC is missing.

      Changed according to the reviewer’s comment.

      Page 48 Table 2 Number of docked vesicles Median values are rounded to integer values? If yes why?

      The statistic package used rounded to the given values.

      Page 51 Supplementary Table 1 Hu_04 Histopathology, what does TLE stands for?

      TLE: temporal lobe epilepsy. We included the abbreviation in the legend of Supplementary Table1, that is now table 2.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Reanalysis of astrocytic coverage based on the % of synapses that form tripartite synapses.

      We have reanalyzed the data concerning this point (new Figure 6D).

      (2) Segregation of excitatory and inhibitory synapses.

      We have now included a paragraph in our results section to distinguish between excitatory and inhibitory synapses.

      (3) Better explanation of the limits of the study to assess functional parameters.

      We disagree with the reviewer on this point and have not included an explanation concerning the limits of this study.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment 

      This useful study uses high-field fMRI to test the hypothesized involvement of subcortical structure, particularly the striatum, in WM updating. It overcomes limitations in prior work by applying high-field imaging with a more precise definition of ROIs. Thus, the empirical observations are of use to specialists interested in working memory gating or the reference back task specifically. However, evidence to support the broader implications, including working memory gating as a construct, is incomplete and limited by the ambiguities in this task and its connection to theory. 

      We would like to express our gratitude to the editor and the reviewers for their time and effort in providing insightful and valuable comments. We greatly value the critical perspective on the relationship between fMRI contrasts and the PBWM model. We hope to have addressed all the last critical points and changed the manuscript according to the reviewers’ suggestions. Furthermore, we would like to point out that the behavioral results section was edited, as a double-check of the results section revealed some erroneous descriptive statistics.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1:

      Summary: 

      Trutti and colleagues used 7T fMRI to identify brain regions involved in subprocesses of updating the content of working memory. Contrary to past theoretical and empirical claims that the striatum serves a gating function when new information is to be entered into working memory, the relevant contrast during a reference-back task did not reveal significant subcortical activation. Instead, the experiment provided support for the role of subcortical (and cortical) regions in other subprocesses. 

      Strengths: 

      The use of high-field imaging optimized for subcortical regions in conjunction with the theory-driven experimental design mapped well to the focus on a hypothetical striatal gating mechanism. 

      Consideration of multiple subprocesses and the transparent way of identifying these, summarized in a table, will make it easy for future studies to replicate and extend the present experiment.   

      Weaknesses: 

      The reference-back paradigm seems to only require holding a single letter in working memory (X or O; Figure 1). It remains unclear how such low demand on working memory influences associated fMRI updating responses. It is also not clear whether reference-switch trials with 'same' response truly tax working-memory updating (and gate opening), as the working-memory content/representation does not need to be updated in this case. These potential design issues, together with the rather low number of experimental trials, raise concerns about the demonstrated absence of evidence for striatal gate opening. 

      We acknowledge that a limitation of our study is that the task involved relatively low working memory demands. It remains to be clarified whether the same neural mechanisms would be engaged under a higher working memory load, and this is an important consideration for future research.

      We also fully agree that it is uncertain whether reference-switch trials requiring a ‘same’ (or ‘match’ ) response truly engage working memory updating (or gate opening), as the working memory content or representation does not need to be altered in these cases. This concern is addressed in detail in the discussion section titled “No Support for Striatal Gate Opening” (see second paragraph).

      Regarding our references to dopamine, we completely agree with the reviewer about the speculative nature of these discussions. In response, we thoroughly reviewed the manuscript and made revisions where necessary to ensure that we consistently emphasize the speculative nature of our commentary on dopamine and dopaminergic pathways.

      Finally, we acknowledge the concerns about the design and the relatively low number of trials. However, our fMRI analyses of other reference-back task contrasts did reveal activity in the striatum and other subcortical ROIs. This suggests that our scanning protocol and task design are sufficiently sensitive to detect striatal activity, even with the limited number of trials.

      The authors provide a motivation for their multi-step approach to fMRI analyses. Still, the three subsections of fMRI results (3.2.1; 3.2.2; 3.3.3) for 4 subprocesses each (gate opening, gate closing, substitution, updating mode) made the Results section complex and it was not always easy to understand why some but not other approaches revealed significant effects (as the midbrain in gate opening). 

      We thank the reviewer for this important remark and the opportunity to clarify our approach. We conducted whole-brain general linear models (GLMs) to generate a comprehensive wholebrain map of brain activity for each contrast. However, the whole-brain statistical parametric mappings (SPMs) involve data smoothing, which–while improving signal detection–reduces spatial precision. This is especially problematic in smaller or closely adjacent regions, where spatial blurring can merge distinct activations or make localized signals appear more widespread.

      Additionally, the statistical thresholds in whole-brain analyses may detect weak or borderline significant effects, whereas ROI-wise GLMs, which assume uniform behavior across the entire region, may miss the same effects if the signal is weak or inconsistent across the ROI.

      Since our primary focus was on the subcortex, we relied more heavily on ROI-wise GLMs, which were limited to subcortical regions. We prioritized findings that were supported by either the ROI-wise GLMs or by both GLM analyses. For instance, the midbrain activations found in our whole-brain analysis but not in the ROI analysis may result from smoothing (where activation from neighboring regions spreads into midbrain voxels) or from functional heterogeneity within the ROI, which can obscure localized activations when averaged in the ROI-wise GLMs. Inferences from each GLM approach, along with their discrepancies, are discussed for each contrast throughout the discussion, with additional details on the clusterbased ROI analysis in the discussion section titled “Dopaminergic involvement in working memory substitution” (see third paragraph).

      We acknowledge that the results section may seem complex, and we apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.

      Reviewer #2:

      Summary: 

      The study reported by Trutti et al. uses high-field fMRI to test the hypothesized involvement of subcortical structure, particularly striatum, in WM updating. Specifically, participants were scanned while performing the Reference Back task (e.g., Rac-Lubashevsky and Kessler, 2016), which tests constructs like working memory gate opening and closing and substitution. While striatal activation was involved in substitution, it was not observed in gate opening. This observation is cited as a challenge to cortico-striatal models of WM gating, like PBWM (Frank and O'Reilly, 2005). 

      Strengths: 

      While there have been prior fMRI studies of the reference back task (Nir-Cohen et al., 2020), the present study overcomes limitations in prior work, particularly with regard to subcortical structures, by applying high-field imaging with a more precise definition of ROIs. And, the fMRI methods are careful and rigorous, overall. Thus, the empirical observations here are useful and will be of interest to specialists interested in working memory gating or the reference back task specifically. 

      Weaknesses: 

      I am less persuaded by the more provocative points regarding the challenge it presents to models like PBWM, made in several places by the paper. As detailed below, issues with conceptual clarity of the main constructs and their connection to models, like PBWM, along with some incomplete aspects of the results, make this stronger conclusion less compelling. 

      (1) The relationship of the Nir-Cohen et al. (2020) task analysis of the reference back task, with its contrasts like gate opening and closing, and the predictions of PBWM is far from clear to me for several reasons. 

      First, contrasts like gate opening and gate closing make strong finite state assumptions. As far as I know, this is not an assumption of PBWM, certainly not for gate opening. At a minimum, PBWM is default closed because of the tonic inhibition of cortico-thalamic dynamics by the globus pallidus. Indeed, this was even noted in the discussion of this paper, which seems to acknowledge this discrepancy, but then goes on to conclude that they have challenged the PBWM model anyway.  

      We thank the reviewer for this remark and agree that the reference-back task contrasts do not perfectly align with the predictions of the PBWM model. In the discussion section "No support for striatal gate opening," we note that our data support the PBWM model by emphasizing the central role of the basal ganglia in working memory processes. However, we acknowledge that it may not have been sufficiently clear in the manuscript that the way the reference-back task is operationalised does not allow for a precise test of the PBWM's gating predictions. To address this, we have revised the manuscript to shift focus away from framing it as a direct challenge to the PBWM model. Below, some edits are highlighted.

      ‘This contrasts with the findings of Nir-Cohen et al. (2020) and raises questions about the relationship between the gate opening process in the reference back task and the indirect striatal gating mechanism described in the PBWM model (Frank et al., 2001; Hazy et al., 2007; O’Reilly & Frank, 2006) and other neurocomputational theories (Hazy et al., 2007; Jongkees, 2020). According to these models, a dopaminergic signal in the striatum is required to trigger gating. Although the orthogonal contrasts in the referenceback task are intended to isolate working memory subprocesses inspired by models of working memory, the two gating contrasts do not fully capture the gating mechanism as originally proposed in neurocomputational models (Frank et al., 2001; Hazy et al., 2007; O’Reilly & Frank, 2006).’ (line 721-730)

      ‘Another explanation for the lack of enhanced striatal activity in gate opening challenges the conceptualization of the gating mechanism in the reference-back task, which does not accurately map onto the PBWM predictions.’ (line 746)

      ‘Moreover, despite the lack of striatal involvement during gate opening, our findings do not rule out the possibility that the PBWM model's predictions about striatal gating in working memory are correct, given the misalignment between the gate opening contrast and the PBWM’s proposal regarding striatal gating. It remains unclear whether the absence of striatal activation during gate opening trials is specific to low-demand tasks, like the reference-back task, which does not require as much gating compared to high working memory-demand tasks involving preparation for updating. Or whether the gate opening contrast does not sufficiently capture the PBWM proposed gating mechanism. Further investigation is needed to determine whether (dopamine-driven) striatal gating occurs in high-demand working memory tasks, where the gating process plays a more critical role.’

      Second, as far as I know, PBWM emphasizes go/no-go processes around constructs of input- and output-gating, rather than state shifts between gate opening and closing. While this relationship is less clear in reference back, substituting task-relevant items into working memory does appear to be an example of input gating, as modeled by PBWM. Thus, it is not clear to me why the substitution contrast would not be more of a test of input gating than the gate opening contrast, which requires assumptions that are not clear are required by the model, as noted above. 

      We fully agree with the reviewer, which is why we proposed that neural mechanisms involving the midbrain and striatum are more likely to be observed in the substitution contrast rather than the gate opening contrast.

      Third, PBWM relies on striatal mechanisms to solve the problem of selective gating, inputting, or outputting items in memory while also holding on to others. Selective gating contrasts with global gating, in which everything in memory is gated or nothing. The reference back task is a test of global gating. It is an important distinction because non-striatal mechanisms that can solve global gating, cannot solve selective gating. Indeed, this limitation of non-striatal mechanisms was the rationale for PBWM adding striatum. The connectivity of the striatum with the cortex permits this selectivity. It is not clear that the reference back task tests these selective demands in the first place. That limitation in this task was the rationale behind the recent Rac-Lubashevsky and Frank (2022) paper using the reference back 2 procedure that modifies the original reference back for selective gating. 

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this excellent reference. We believe it holds exciting potential for future high-field fMRI studies that explore the neural mechanisms underlying selective gating.

      So, if the primary contribution of the paper is to test PBWM, as suggested by the first line of the abstract, then it is not clear that the reference back task in general, or the gate opening contrast in particular, is the best test of these predictions. Other contrasts (substitution), or indeed, tasks (reference back 2) would have been better suited. 

      We agree with the reviewer that the gate opening contrast may not be the optimal test for the PBWM model predictions. However, previous studies have found evidence of striatal gateopening mechanisms using the reference-back task, which cannot be overlooked. We hypothesized that striatal mechanisms are likely active only when working memory content requires replacement, as seen in the substitution contrast in line with the PBWM model. Additionally, the reference-back 2 task (Rac-Lubashevsky & Frank, 2021) had not yet been published when we began data collection. Exploring this task in future studies, particularly with a 7 T fMRI protocol optimized for subcortical regions, would be an exciting avenue for further investigation.

      Finally, in response to the reviewer’s remark, we have revised the abstract to remove the emphasis on challenging the PBWM model.

      (2) In general, observations of univariate activity in the striatum have been notoriously variable in the context of WM. Indeed, Chatham et al. (2014) who tested working memory output gating - notably in a direct test of the predictions of PBWM - noted this variability. They too did not observe univariate activation in the striatum associated with selective output gating. Rather they found evidence of increased connectivity between the striatum and cortex during selective output gating. They argued that one account of this difference is that striatal gating dynamics emerge from the balance between the firing of both Go and NoGo cell populations that decide whether to gate or not. It is not always clear how this balance should relate to univariate activation in the striatum. Thus, the present study might also test cortico-striatal connectivity, rather than relying exclusively on univariate activation, in their test of striatal involvement in these WM constructs. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful observation regarding the variability of univariate activity in the striatum, particularly in the context of working memory and the challenges noted by Chatham et al. (2014). We agree that striatal gating dynamics likely reflect a balance between Go and NoGo cell populations, which may not always manifest in univariate activation alone. In line with the reviewer’s suggestion, examining cortico-striatal connectivity could provide a more comprehensive understanding of striatal involvement in working memory processes, particularly selective gating.

      While our current study focused primarily on univariate activity, we recognize the importance of connectivity-based approaches and plan to incorporate functional connectivity analyses in future studies to further explore these dynamics. Such an approach, especially when combined with ultra-high-field fMRI, may offer valuable insights into the interaction between the striatum and cortex during working memory tasks.

      (3) It is concerning that there was no behavioral cost for comparison switch vs. repeat trials. This differs from with prior observations from the reference back (e.g., Nir-Cohen et al., 2020), and in general, is odd given the task switch/cue interpretation component. This failure to observe a basic behavioral effect raises a concern about how participants approached this task and how that might differ from prior reports of the reference back. If they were taking an unusual strategy, it further complicates the interpretation of these results and the implications they hold for theory. 

      We understand the reviewer’s concern regarding the lack of behavioral response time costs for comparison switch versus repeat trials, which does indeed differ from previous findings in studies such as Nir-Cohen et al. (2020). It is possible that this results from our fMRI task design, such as increased inter-trial intervals compared to behavioral studies. While this is certainly a point of concern, we believe that the neural data still provide valuable insights into the mechanisms underlying working memory gating despite the absence of a clear behavioral effect.

      In future studies, we aim to increase the number of trials and more closely align our task design with previous studies to mitigate this issue. We agree that further investigation is necessary to ensure the robustness of these effects and their theoretical implications.

      In summary, the present observations are useful, particularly for those interested in the reference back task. For example, they might call into question verbal theories and task analyses of the reference back task that tie constructs like gate-opening to striatal mechanisms. However, given the ambiguities noted above, the broader implications for models like PBWM, or indeed, other models of working memory gating, are less clear.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Weaknesses (Reviewer 1):

      The role of Fgf signaling in gliogenesis and Foxg1 in neurogenesis is well known. It is not clear if Fgf18 is a direct target of Foxg1.

      We agree with the reviewer- Fgf signaling is an established pro-gliogenic pathway (Duong et al 2019) and Foxg1 overexpression is known to promote neurogenesis in cultured neural stem cells (Branacaccio et al 2019). Our study links these two mechanisms, as the Reviewer has summarized: (a) we demonstrate that FOXG1 works via modulating Fgf signaling cell-autonomously within progenitors by regulating the levels of Fgfr3. (b) Loss of Foxg1 in postmitotic neurons results in the upregulation of Fgf ligand expression (possibly via indirect mechanisms) and this non-cell autonomously increases Fgf signaling in progenitors_. Our study is entirely performed _in vivo.

      Revision: We have revised the manuscript to reflect that Fgf18 may be an indirect target of FOXG1 in postmitotic neurons.

      Weaknesses (Reviewer 2):

      It wasn't clear to me why the authors chose postnatal day 14 to examine the effects of Foxg1 deletion at E15 - this is a long time window, giving time for indirect consequences of Foxg1 deletion to influence development and thereby potentially complicating the interpretation of findings. For example, the authors show that there is no increased proliferation of astrocytes or death of neurons lacking Foxg1 shortly after cre-mediated deletion, but it remains formally possible (if perhaps unlikely) that these processes could be affected later during the time window. The rationale underlying the choice of this time point should be explained.

      I don't agree with the statement in the very last sentence of the results section that "neurogenesis is not possible in the absence of [Foxg1]" as there are multiple reports in the literature demonstrating the presence of neurons in Foxg1-/- mice (eg: Xuan et al., 1995; Hanashima et al., 2002, Martynoga et al., 2005, Muzio and Mallamaci 2005). Perhaps the statement refers specifically to late-born cortical neurons. This point also arises in the discussion section.

      Revisions:

      (a) We have revised the manuscript to explain why we chose postnatal day 14 to examine the effects of Foxg1 deletion at E15.

      ●  We have examined the transcriptomic dysregulation after Foxg1 deletion at E17.5, which is a reasonable period to identify potential direct targets. Furthermore, FOXG1 occupies the Fgfr3 locus in ChIP-seq performed at E15.5. Together, these support the interpretation that Fgfr3 is a direct target of Foxg1.

      ● As the Reviewer notes, we have investigated the possibility of increased proliferation of astrocytes and death of neurons and found no evidence suggesting these phenomena occur in the 3 days after loss of Foxg1. Cortical neurons are postmitotic and differentiated by E18.5, the stage at which we examined CC3 staining and found no difference in cell death in control and mutants (Supplementary Figure S2C, C’). The majority of progenitors (PAX6+ve cells) that lose Foxg1 at E15.5 express the gliogenic transcription factor NFIA by E18.5 (Figure 2C, C’), but hardly any express intermediate (neurogenic) progenitor marker TBR2 (Supplementary Figure S2B, B’). It is therefore unlikely that neurons are born from Foxg1 mutant progenitors and then die at a later stage.

      ● The cellular consequences of loss of Foxg1 require additional time to detect e.g. it takes ~ 5 days for GFAP to be detected in astrocytes once they are born. The P14 timepoint permits the assessment of oligogenesis which begins after astrogliogenesis and therefore permits a comprehensive assessment of the lineage of E15.5 Foxg1 null progenitors.

      (b) Thank you for pointing out that the last sentence of the results section implied (incorrectly) that ALL neurogenesis is not possible in the absence of Foxg1 We have modified this (and the discussion) to reflect that this applies to E14/15 progenitors and late-born cortical neurons.

      Recommendations for the authors (Reviewer 2):

      (c) We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We will modify the schematic (Figure 7) to remove any ambiguity regarding Foxg1 expression.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Those comments are all valuable and very helpful for revising and improving our paper, as well as the important guiding significance to our researches. We have studied comments carefully and have made correction which we hope meet with approval.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Ma et al. describes a multi-model (pig, mouse, organoid) investigation into how fecal transplants protect against E. coli infection. The authors identify A. muciniphila and B. fragilis as two important strains and characterize how these organisms impact the epithelium by modulating host signaling pathways, namely the Wnt pathway in lgr5 intestinal stem cells.

      Strengths:

      The strengths of this manuscript include the use of multiple model systems and follow up mechanistic investigations to understand how A. muciniphila and B. fragilis interacted with the host to impact epithelial physiology.

      Weaknesses:

      As in previous revisions, there remains concerning ambiguity in the methodology used for microbiota sequence analysis and it would be difficult to replicate the analysis in any meaningful way. In this revision, concerns about the rigor and reproducibility of this component of the manuscript have been increased. Readers should be cautious with interpretation of this data.

      (1) In previous versions of the manuscript it would appear the correct bioproject accession was listed but, the actual link went to an unrelated project. The updated accession link appears to contain raw data; however, the authors state they used an Illumina HiSeq 2500. This would be an unusual choice for V3-V4 as it would not have read lengths long enough to overlap. Inspection of the first sample (SRR19164796) demonstrates that this is absolutely not the raw data, as there is a ~400 nt forward read, and a 0 length reverse read. All quality scores are set to 30. There is no logical way to go from HiSeq 2500 raw data and read lengths to what was uploaded to the SRA and it was certainly not described in the manuscript.

      What we uploaded to the SRA was Contigs files for sample, we have modified the description on line 694.

      (2) No multiple testing correction was applied to the microbiome data.

      The alpha diversity indexes were tested using T-test and wilcox test, and we showed the result of T-test in FigureS1B. The p-values were corrected for multiple testing using the Benjamini-Hochberg method, we have modified the description on line 322.

      ---------

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Ma X. et al proposed that A. muciniphila was a key strain that promotes the proliferation and differentiation of intestinal stem cells through acting on the Wnt/β-catenin signaling pathway. They used various models, such as piglet model, mouse model and intestinal organoids to address how A. muciniphila and B. fragilis offer the protection against ETEC infection. They showed that FMT with fecal samples, A. muciniphila or B. fragilis protected piglets and/or mice from ETEC infection, and this protection is manifested as reduced intestinal inflammation/bacterial colonization, increased tight junction/Muc2 proteins, as well as proper Treg/Th17 cells. Additionally, they demonstrated that A. muciniphila protected basal-out and/or apical-out intestinal organoids against ETEC infection via Wnt signaling.

      Comments on revised version:

      Please add proper references to indicate the invasion of ETEC into organoids after 1 h of infection.

      We have added references on line 211.

      References:

      Xiao K, Yang Y, Zhang Y, Lv QQ, Huang FF, Wang D, Zhao JC, Liu YL. 2022. Long-chain PUFA ameliorate enterotoxigenic Escherichia coli-induced intestinal inflammation and cell injury by modulating pyroptosis and necroptosis signaling pathways in porcine intestinal epithelial cells. Br. J. Nutr. 128(5):835-850.

      Qian MQ, Zhou XC, Xu TT, Li M, Yang ZR, Han XY. 2023. Evaluation of Potential Probiotic Properties of Limosilactobacillus fermentum Derived from Piglet Feces and Influence on the Healthy and E. coli-Challenged Porcine Intestine. Microorganisms. 11(4).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Ma et al. describes a multi-model (pig, mouse, organoid) investigation into how fecal transplants protect against E. coli infection. The authors identify A. muciniphila and B. fragilis as two important strains and characterize how these organisms impact the epithelium by modulating host signaling pathways, namely the Wnt pathway in lgr5 intestinal stem cells.

      Strengths:

      The strengths of this manuscript include the use of multiple model systems and follow up mechanistic investigations to understand how A. muciniphila and B. fragilis interacted with the host to impact epithelial physiology.

      Weaknesses:

      After an additional revision, the bioinformatics section of the methods has changed significantly from previous versions and now indicates a third sequencer was used instead: Ion S5 XL. Important parameters required to replicate analysis have still not been provided. Inspection of the SRA data indicates a mix of Illumina MiSeq and Illumina HiSeq 2500. It is now unclear which sequencing technology was used as authors have variably reported 4 different sequencers for these samples. Appropriate metadata was not provided in the SRA, although some groups may be inferred from sample names. These changing descriptions of the methodologies and ambiguity in making the data available create concerns about rigor of study and results.

      Due to confusing the sequencing method of this experiment with other experiment samples, we apologize for the multiple incorrect modifications of the method description. We have modified the method for microbiome sequencing technology on line 304. The sequencing technology is Illumina HiSeq 2500. The SRA metadata can be viewed at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sra/PRJNA837047. The sample names ep1-6 and ef1-6 were correspond to the EP and EF groups, respectively.

      Recommendations For the Authors:

      As in the previous revision:

      -provide important parameters required to replicate analysis

      -ensure that reporting of sequencing technology is correct as data listed on SRA appears to be derived from Illumina sequencers, and was deposited indicating as such.

      -update SRA metadata such that experimental groups are clear and match the nomenclature used in the manuscript (Particularly for samples which are labelled [A-Z][0-9]

      - The multiple testing correction wasn’t applied.

      -Due to confusing the sequencing method of this experiment with other experiment samples, we apologize for the multiple incorrect modifications of the method description. We have modified the method for microbiome sequencing technology on line 304. The sequencing technology is Illumina HiSeq 2500.

      - The SRA metadata can be viewed at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sra/PRJNA837047. The sample names ep1-6 and ef1-6 were correspond to the EP and EF groups, respectively.

    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors investigate the effects of aging on auditory system performance in understanding temporal fine structure (TFS), using both behavioral assessments and physiological recordings from the auditory periphery, specifically at the level of the auditory nerve. This dual approach aims to enhance understanding of the mechanisms underlying observed behavioral outcomes. The results indicate that aged animals exhibit deficits in behavioral tasks for distinguishing between harmonic and inharmonic sounds, which is a standard test for TFS coding. However, neural responses at the auditory nerve level do not show significant differences when compared to those in young, normal-hearing animals. The authors suggest that these behavioral deficits in aged animals are likely attributable to dysfunctions in the central auditory system, potentially as a consequence of aging. To further investigate this hypothesis, the study includes an animal group with selective synaptic loss between inner hair cells and auditory nerve fibers, a condition known as cochlear synaptopathy (CS). CS is a pathology associated with aging and is thought to be an early indicator of hearing impairment. Interestingly, animals with selective CS showed physiological and behavioral TFS coding similar to that of the young normal-hearing group, contrasting with the aged group's deficits. Despite histological evidence of significant synaptic loss in the CS group, the study concludes that CS does not appear to affect TFS coding, either behaviorally or physiologically.

      We agree with the reviewer’s summary.

      Strengths:

      This study addresses a critical health concern, enhancing our understanding of mechanisms underlying age-related difficulties in speech intelligibility, even when audiometric thresholds are within normal limits. A major strength of this work is the comprehensive approach, integrating behavioral assessments, auditory nerve (AN) physiology, and histology within the same animal subjects. This approach enhances understanding of the mechanisms underlying the behavioral outcomes and provides confidence in the actual occurrence of synapse loss and its effects. The study carefully manages controlled conditions by including five distinct groups: young normal-hearing animals, aged animals, animals with CS induced through low and high doses, and a sham surgery group. This careful setup strengthens the study's reliability and allows for meaningful comparisons across conditions. Overall, the manuscript is well-structured, with clear and accessible writing that facilitates comprehension of complex concepts.

      Weaknesses:

      The stimulus and task employed in this study are very helpful for behavioral research, and using the same stimulus setup for physiology is advantageous for mechanistic comparisons. However, I have some concerns about the limitations in auditory nerve (AN) physiology. Due to practical constraints, it is not feasible to record from a large enough population of fibers that covers a full range of best frequencies (BFs) and spontaneous rates (SRs) within each animal. This raises questions about how representative the physiological data are for understanding the mechanism in behavioral data. I am curious about the authors' interpretation of how this stimulus setup might influence results compared to methods used by Kale and Heinz (2010), who adjusted harmonic frequencies based on the characteristic frequency (CF) of recorded units. While, the harmonic frequencies in this study are fixed across all CFs, meaning that many AN fibers may not be tuned closely to the stimulus frequencies.

      We chose the stimuli for the AN recordings to be identical to the stimuli used in the behavioral evaluation of the perceptual sensitivity. Only with this approach can we directly compare the response of the population of AN fibres with perception measured in behaviour. We will address this more clearly in the revision.

      If units are not responsive to the stimulus further clarification on detecting mistuning and phase locking to TFS effects within this setup would be valuable.

      It is unclear to us what the reviewer alludes to. We ask to rephrase the question.

      Given the limited number of units per condition-sometimes as few as three for certain conditions - I wonder if CF-dependent variability might impact the results of the AN data in this study and discussing this factor can help with better understanding the results. While the use of the same stimuli for both behavioral and physiological recordings is understandable, a discussion on how this choice affects interpretation would be beneficial. In addition a 60 dB stimulus could saturate high spontaneous rate (HSR) AN fibers, influencing neural coding and phase-locking to TFS. Potentially separating SR groups, could help address these issues and improve interpretive clarity.

      In the discussion of a revised version of the manuscript, we will point out the pros and cons of using fixed-level stimuli that were not adjusted in frequency to the BF.

      A deeper discussion on the role of fiber spontaneous rate could also enhance the study. How might considering SR groups affect AN results related to TFS coding? While some statistical measures are included in the supplement, a more detailed discussion in the main text could help in interpretation. We do not think that it will be necessary to conduct any statistical analysis in addition to that already reported in the supplement.

      We will consider moving some supplementary information back into the main manuscript when revising.

      Although Figure S2 indicates no change in median SR, the high-dose treatment group lacks LSR fibers, suggesting a different distribution based on SR for different animal groups, as seen in similar studies on other species. A histogram of these results would be informative, as LSR fiber loss with CS-whether induced by ouabain in gerbils or noise in other animals-is well documented (e.g., Furman et al., 2013).

      We will add information on the distribution when revising.

      Although ouabain effects on gerbils have been explored in previous studies, since these data already seems to be recorded for the animal in this study, a brief description of changes in auditory brainstem response (ABR) thresholds, wave 1 amplitudes, and tuning curves for animals with cochlear synaptopathy (CS) in this study would be beneficial. This would confirm that ouabain selectively affects synapses without impacting outer hair cells (OHCs). For aged animals, since ABR measurements were taken, comparing hearing differences between normal and aged groups could provide insights into the pathologies besides CS in aged animals. Additionally, examining subject variability in treatment effects on hearing and how this correlates with behavior and physiology would yield valuable insights. If limited space maybe a brief clarification or inclusion in supplementary could be good enough.

      We do indeed have data on ABR amplitudes and the wave 1 growth functions but only in response to broadband clicks. For more frequency-specific information, mass-potential recordings are available, obtained before and after ouabain treatment. Regarding neural tuning, we did not obtain full frequency-threshold curves but do have bandwidths for response curves recorded close to threshold. We are in the process of analyzing all these data further and will consider how to best incorporate them into the manuscript, to address the reviewer’s concerns.

      Another suggestion is to discuss the potential role of MOC efferent system and effect of anesthesia in reducing efferent effects in AN recordings. This is particularly relevant for aged animals, as CS might affect LSR fibers, potentially disrupting the medial olivocochlear (MOC) efferent pathway. Anesthesia could lessen MOC activity in both young and aged animals, potentially masking efferent effects that might be present in behavioral tasks. Young gerbils with functional efferent systems might perform better behaviorally, while aged gerbils with impaired MOC function due to CS might lack this advantage. A brief discussion on this aspect could potentially enhance mechanistic insights.

      Our provisional response below will be integrated in similar form into the Discussion.

      Olivocochlear efferent activity is a potential modulator of OHC gain (by medial olivocochlear neurons, MOC) and afferent activity (by lateral olivocochlear neurons, LOC). Beyond this general observation it is, however, difficult to speculate about its specific role in the TFS1 test, as almost nothing is known about efferent activity under naturalistic conditions in a behaving animal (reviewed by Lauer et al., 2022). We note, however, that efferent activity is believed to be reduced under general anesthesia (reviewed by Guinan, 2011, DOI 10.1007/978-1-4419-7070-1_3) and possibly abnormal in other ways, considering the potential top-down inputs to the efferent neurons from extensive brain networks (reviewed by Schofield, 2011, DOI 10.1007/978-1-4419-7070-1_9; Romero and Trussell, 2022, DOI: 10.1016/j.heares.2022.108516). Thus, it is reasonable to assume a reduced efferent influence in our auditory-nerve data, compared to the behavioral test situation. In contrast, we assume more comparable efferent influences in young-adult and old gerbils. It was recently shown that, despite age-related losses in both MOC and LOC cochlear innervation, this basically reflected the loss of efferent target structures (OHC and type-I afferents), with the surviving cochlear circuitry remaining largely normal (Steenken et al., 2024, DOI: 10.3389/fnsyn.2024.1422330). The main difference was an increased proportion of OHC without any efferent innervation, predominantly in low-frequency cochlear regions (Steenken et al., 2024). Such OHC are thus not under efferent control, and they are more numerous (about 10 – 30%) in old gerbils.

      Lastly, although synapse counts did not differ between the low-dose treatment and NH I sham groups, separating these groups rather than combining them with the sham might reveal differences in behavior or AN results, particularly regarding the significance of differences between aged/treatment groups and the young normal-hearing group. For maximizing statistical power, we combined those groups in the statistical analysis. These two groups did not differ in synapse number and had quite similar ABR wave 1 growth functions.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Using a gerbil model, the authors tested the hypothesis that loss of synapses between sensory hair cells and auditory nerve fibers (which may occur due to noise exposure or aging) affects behavioral discrimination of the rapid temporal fluctuations of sounds. In contrast to previous suggestions in the literature, their results do not support this hypothesis; young animals treated with a compound that reduces the number of synapses did not show impaired discrimination compared to controls. Additionally, their results from older animals showing impaired discrimination suggest that age-related changes aside from synaptopathy are responsible for the age-related decline in discrimination.

      We agree with the reviewer’s summary.

      Strengths:

      (1) The rationale and hypothesis are well-motivated and clearly presented.

      (2) The study was well conducted with strong methodology for the most part, and good experimental control. The combination of physiological and behavioral techniques is powerful and informative. Reducing synapse counts fairly directly using ouabain is a cleaner design than using noise exposure or age (as in other studies), since these latter modifiers have additional effects on auditory function.

      (3) The study may have a considerable impact on the field. The findings could have important implications for our understanding of cochlear synaptopathy, one of the most highly researched and potentially impactful developments in hearing science in the past fifteen years.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) My main concern is that the stimuli may not have been appropriate for assessing neural temporal coding behaviorally. Human studies using the same task employed a filter center frequency that was (at least) 11 times the fundamental frequency (Marmel et al., 2015; Moore and Sek, 2009). Moore and Sek wrote: "the default (recommended) value of the centre frequency is 11F0." Here, the center frequency was only 4 or 8 times the fundamental frequency (4F0 or 8F0). Hence, relative to harmonic frequency, the harmonic spacing was considerably greater in the present study. By my calculations, the masking noise used in the present study was also considerably lower in level relative to the harmonic complex than that used in the human studies. These factors may have allowed the animals to perform the task using cues based on the pattern of activity across the neural array (excitation pattern cues), rather than cues related to temporal neural coding. The authors show that mean neural driven rate did not change with frequency shift, but I don't understand the relevance of this. It is the change in response of individual fibers with characteristic frequencies near the lowest audible harmonic that is important here.

      The auditory filter bandwidth of the gerbil is about double that of human subjects. Because of this, the masking noise has a larger overall level than in the human studies in the filter. This precludes that the gerbils can use excitation patterns, especially in the condition with a center frequency of 1600 Hz and a fundamental of 200 Hz and in the condition with a center frequency of 3200 Hz and a fundamental of 400 Hz.

      The case against excitation pattern cues needs to be better made in the Discussion. It could be that gerbil frequency selectivity is broad enough for this not to be an issue, but more detail needs to be provided to make this argument. The authors should consider what is the lowest audible harmonic in each case for their stimuli, given the level of each harmonic and the level of the pink noise. Even for the 8F0 center frequency, the lowest audible harmonic may be as low as the 4th (possibly even the 3rd). In human, harmonics are thought to be resolvable by the cochlea up to at least the 8th.

      Because of the gerbil’s broader auditory filters, with the exception of the condition with center frequency of 1600 Hz and fundamental of 400 Hz harmonics are are not resolved. We will expand the topic of potential excitation pattern cues in the discussion of the revised version and add results on modeled excitation patterns to the supplement.

      (2) The synapse reductions in the high ouabain and old groups were relatively small (mean of 19 synapses per hair cell compared to 23 in the young untreated group). In contrast, in some mouse models of the effects of noise exposure or age, a 50% reduction in synapses is observed, and in the human temporal bone study of Wu et al. (2021, https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.3238-20.2021) the age-related reduction in auditory nerve fibres was ~50% or greater for the highest age group across cochlear location. It could be simply that the synapse loss in the present study was too small to produce significant behavioral effects. Hence, although the authors provide evidence that in the gerbil model the age-related behavioral effects are not due to synaptopathy, this may not translate to other species (including human). This should be discussed in the manuscript.

      Our provisional response below will be integrated in similar form into the Discussion.

      The observed extent of age-related or noise-induced loss of type-I afferent synapses on IHC varies widely between species and studies. For example, in ageing CBA/CaJ mice, mean losses of between 20 and 50% of afferent synapses (depending on cochlear location and precise age) were reported (Sergeyenko et al., 2013, DOI: 10.1523/JNEUROSCI.1783-13.2013; Kobrina et al., 2020, DOI: 10.1016/j.neurobiolaging.2020.08.012). Humans showed more pronounced losses of peripheral axons, of 40–100%, again depending on cochlear location, precise age, and noise history (Wu et al., 2019, DOI: 10.1016/j.neuroscience.2018.07.053; 2021, DOI: 10.1523/JNEUROSCI.3238-20.2021). The age-related and induced synapse losses in our gerbils were in a more moderate range, around 20% (Steenken et al., 2021, DOI: 10.1016/j.neurobiolaging.2021.08.019; this study). Thus, it is possible that a more severe, induced synaptopathy would have resulted in behavioral deficits in young-adult gerbils. However, in the absence of additional noise or pharmacologically induced damage, our study provides strong evidence for other factors causing temporal processing problems with advancing age. Our 3-year-old gerbils are approximately comparable to a 60-year-old human (Castano-Gonzalez et al., 2024, DOI: 10.1016/j.heares.2024.108989) with beginning but not yet clinically relevant hearing loss (Hamann et al., 2002, DOI: 10.1016/S0378-5955(02)00454-9).

      It would be informative to provide synapse counts separately for the animals who were tested behaviorally, to confirm that the pattern of loss across the group was the same as for the larger sample.

      Yes, the pattern was the same for the subgroup of behaviorally tested animals. We will add this information to the revised version of the manuscript.

      (3) The study was not pre-registered, and there was no a priori power calculation, so there is less confidence in replicability than could have been the case. Only three old animals were used in the behavioral study, which raises concerns about the reliability of comparisons involving this group.

      The results for the three old subjects differed significantly from those of young subjects and young ouabain-treated subjects. This indicates a sufficient statistical power, since otherwise no significant differences would be observed.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      This study is a part of the ongoing series of rigorous work from this group exploring neural coding deficits in the auditory nerve, and dissociating the effects of cochlear synaptopathy from other age-related deficits. They have previously shown no evidence of phase-locking deficits in the remaining auditory nerve fibers in quiet-aged gerbils. Here, they study the effects of aging on the perception and neural coding of temporal fine structure cues in the same Mongolian gerbil model.

      They measure TFS coding in the auditory nerve using the TFS1 task which uses a combination of harmonic and tone-shifted inharmonic tones which differ primarily in their TFS cues (and not the envelope). They then follow this up with a behavioral paradigm using the TFS1 task in these gerbils. They test young normal hearing gerbils, aged gerbils, and young gerbils with cochlear synaptopathy induced using the neurotoxin ouabain to mimic synapse losses seen with age. In the behavioral paradigm, they find that aging is associated with decreased performance compared to the young gerbils, whereas young gerbils with similar levels of synapse loss do not show these deficits. When looking at the auditory nerve responses, they find no differences in neural coding of TFS cues across any of the groups.

      However, aged gerbils show an increase in the representation of periodicity envelope cues (around f0) compared to young gerbils or those with induced synapse loss. The authors hence conclude that synapse loss by itself doesn't seem to be important for distinguishing TFS cues, and rather the behavioral deficits with age are likely having to do with the misrepresented envelope cues instead.

      We agree with the reviewer’s summary.

      The manuscript is well written, and the data presented are robust. Some of the points below will need to be considered while interpreting the results of the study, in its current form. These considerations are addressable if deemed necessary, with some additional analysis in future versions of the manuscript.

      Spontaneous rates - Figure S2 shows no differences in median spontaneous rates across groups. But taking the median glosses over some of the nuances there. Ouabain (in the Bourien study) famously affects low spont rates first, and at a higher degree than median or high spont rates. It seems to be the case (qualitatively) in Figure S2 as well, with almost no units in the low spont region in the ouabain group, compared to the other groups. Looking at distributions within each spont rate category and comparing differences across the groups might reveal some of the underlying causes for these changes. Given that overall, the study reports that low-SR fibers had a higher ENV/TFS log-z-ratio, the distribution of these fibers across groups may reveal specific effects of TFS coding by group.

      As the reviewer points out, our sample from the group treated with a high concentration of ouabain showed very few low-spontaneous-rate auditory-nerve fibers, as expected from previous work. However, this was also true, e.g., for our sample from sham-operated animals, and may thus well reflect a sampling bias. We are therefore reluctant to attach much significance to these data distributions. We will consider moving some supplementary information back into the main manuscript when revising.

      Threshold shifts - It is unclear from the current version if the older gerbils have changes in hearing thresholds, and whether those changes may be affecting behavioral thresholds. The behavioral stimuli appear to have been presented at a fixed sound level for both young and aged gerbils, similar to the single unit recordings. Hence, age-related differences in behavior may have been due to changes in relative sensation level. Approaches such as using hearing thresholds as covariates in the analysis will help explore if older gerbils still show behavioral deficits.

      Unfortunately, we did not obtain behavioral thresholds that could be used here. The ABR thresholds, although not directly comparable to behavioral thresholds, suggest that our old animals had at most a moderate threshold increase in quiet. Furthermore, we want to point out that the TFS 1 stimuli had an overall level of 68 dB SPL, and the pink noise masker would have increased the threshold more than expected from the moderate, age-related hearing loss in quiet. Thus, the masked thresholds for all gerbil groups are likely similar and should have no effect on the behavioral results.

      Task learning in aged gerbils - It is unclear if the aged gerbils really learn the task well in two of the three TFS1 test conditions. The d' of 1 which is usually used as the criterion for learning was not reached in even the easiest condition for aged gerbils in all but one condition for the aged gerbils (Fig. 5H) and in that condition, there doesn't seem to be any age-related deficits in behavioral performance (Fig. 6B). Hence dissociating the inability to learn the task from the inability to perceive TFS 1 cues in those animals becomes challenging.

      Even in the group of gerbils with the lowest sensitivity, for the condition 400/1600 the animals achieved a d’ of on average above 1. Furthermore, stimuli were well above threshold and audible, even when no discrimination could be observed. Finally, as explained in the methods, different stimulus conditions were interleaved in each session, providing stimuli that were easy to discriminate together with those being difficult to discriminate. This approach ensures that the gerbils were under stimulus control, meaning properly trained to perform the task. Thus, an inability to discriminate does not indicate a lack of proper training.

      Increased representation of periodicity envelope in the AN - the mechanisms for increased representation of periodicity envelope cues is unclear. The authors point to some potential central mechanisms but given that these are recordings from the auditory nerve what central mechanisms these may be is unclear. If the authors are suggesting some form of efferent modulation only at the f0 frequency, no evidence for this is presented. It appears more likely that the enhancement may be due to outer hair cell dysfunction (widened tuning, distorted tonotopy). Given this increased envelope coding, the potential change in sensation level for the behavior (from the comment above), and no change in neural coding of TFS cues across any of the groups, a simpler interpretation may be -TFS coding is not affected in remaining auditory nerve fibers after age-related or ouabain induced synapse loss, but behavioral performance is affected by altered outer hair cell dysfunction with age.

      A similar point is made by Reviewer #1. As indicated above, we do have limited data on neural bandwidths and will explore if these are sufficient to address the reviewers’ questions about potential, age-related changes in neural tuning in our sample. Previous work found no substantial OHC losses (Tarnowski et al., 1991, DOI: 10.1016/0378-5955(91)90142-V; Adams and Schulte, 1997, DOI: 10.1016/S0378-5955(96)00184-0; Steenken et al., 2024, DOI: 10.3389/fnsyn.2024.1422330) nor any deterioration in neural frequency tuning (Heeringa et al., 2020, DOI: 10.1523/JNEUROSCI.2784-18.2019), in quiet-aged gerbils of similar age as the ones used here.

      Emerging evidence seems to suggest that cochlear synaptopathy and/or TFS encoding abilities might be reflected in listening effort rather than behavioral performance. Measuring some proxy of listening effort in these gerbils (like reaction time) to see if that has changed with synapse loss, especially in the young animals with induced synaptopathy, would make an interesting addition to explore perceptual deficits of TFS coding with synapse loss.

      This is an interesting suggestion that we will explore in the revision of the manuscript. Reaction times were recorded for responses that can be used as a proxy for listening effort.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This computational modeling study addresses the observation that variable observations are interpreted differently depending on how much uncertainty an agent expects from its environment. That is, the same mismatch between a stimulus and an expected stimulus would be less significant, and specifically would represent a smaller prediction error, in an environment with a high degree of variability than in one where observations have historically been similar to each other. The authors show that if two different classes of inhibitory interneurons, the PV and SST cells, (1) encode different aspects of a stimulus distribution and (2) act in different (divisive vs. subtractive) ways, and if (3) synaptic weights evolve in a way that causes the impact of certain inputs to balance the firing rates of the targets of those inputs, then pyramidal neurons in layer 2/3 of canonical cortical circuits can indeed encode uncertainty-modulated prediction errors. To achieve this result, SST neurons learn to represent the mean of a stimulus distribution and PV neurons its variance.

      The impact of uncertainty on prediction errors in an understudied topic, and this study provides an intriguing and elegant new framework for how this impact could be achieved and what effects it could produce. The ideas here differ from past proposals about how neuronal firing represents uncertainty. The developed theory is accompanied by several predictions for future experimental testing, including the existence of different forms of coding by different subclasses of PV interneurons, which target different sets of SST interneurons (as well as pyramidal cells). The authors are able to point to some experimental observations that are at least consistent with their computational results. The simulations shown demonstrate that if we accept its assumptions, then the authors’ theory works very well: SSTs learn to represent the mean of a stimulus distribution, PVs learn to estimate its variance, firing rates of other model neurons scale as they should, and the level of uncertainty automatically tunes the learning rate, so that variable observations are less impactful in a high uncertainty setting.

      Strengths:

      The ideas in this work are novel and elegant, and they are instantiated in a progression of simulations that demonstrate the behavior of the circuit. The framework used by the authors is biologically plausible and matches some known biological data. The results attained, as well as the assumptions that go into the theory, provide several predictions for future experimental testing. The authors have taken into account earlier review comments to revise their paper in ways that enhance its clarity.

      Weaknesses:

      One weakness could be that the proposed theory does rely on a fairly large number of assumptions. However, there is at least some biological support for these. Importantly, the authors do lay out and discuss their key assumptions in the Discussion section, so readers can assess their validity and implications for themselves.

      Thank you very much, we are very satisfied with this public review.

      Reviewer #4 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Wilmes and colleagues develop a model for the computation of uncertainty modulated prediction errors based on an experimentally inspired cortical circuit model for predictive processing. Predictive processing is a promising theory of cortical function. An essential aspect of the model is the idea of precision weighting of prediction errors. There is ample experimental evidence for prediction error responses in cortex. However, a central prediction of the theory is that these prediction error responses are regulated by the uncertainty of the input. Testing this idea experimentally has been difficult due to a lack of concrete models. This work provides one such model and makes experimentally testable predictions.

      Strengths:

      The model proposed is novel and well-implemented. It has sufficient biological accuracy to make useful and testable predictions.

      Weaknesses:

      One key idea the model hinges on is that stimulus uncertainty is encoded in the firing rate of parvalbumin positive interneurons. This assumption, however, is rather speculative and there is no direct evidence for this.

      Thank you very much for this nice description. With regard to the weakness: it is true that the key idea hinges on uncertainty being encoded in the firing of inhibitory neurons. If it turns out that these inhibitory neurons are not PV neurons, however, the theory does not break down. The suggestion of PV neurons is fueled by the observation that PV neurons implement shunting and hence divisive inhibition and by the connectivity of PVs in the circuit. We discuss this in the discussion section: "To provide experimental predictions that are immediately testable, we suggested specific roles for SSTs and PVs, as they can subtractively and divisively modulate pyramidal cell activity, respectively. In principle, our theory more generally posits that any subtractive or divisive inhibition could implement the suggested computations. With the emerging data on inhibitory cell types, subtypes of SSTs and PVs or other cell types may turn out to play the proposed role."

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #4 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Line numbers would simplify reviewing.

      We will add line numbers to our next submission.

      (2) The existence of positive and negative PE was already suggested by Rao & Ballard.

      We added the citation to the sentence "Because baseline firing rates are low in layer 2/3 pyramidal cells () positive and negative prediction errors were suggested to be represented by distinct neuronal populations [44,66],[...]" in the section "Computation of UPEs in cortical microcircuits".

      (3) wekk should probably read well.

      Indeed, thank you. We fixed it.

      (4) Figure 4. legends A-C are mixed up. What are the two values of ¦s-u¦ in F and I - the same as in D and F.

      Thank you, we fixed this.

      (5) "representation neurons, the activity of which reflects the internal model". For consistency with the original definitions this should read "the activity of which reflects the internal representation". The internal "model" is the synaptic weights (or transformation between areas) - the activity of representation neurons (as the name implies) is the internal "representation".

      Thank you, we changed it.

      (6) "Mice trained in a predictable environment [...] [4]." This should read "reared" in an unpredictable environment, etc. Relatedly, the problem with this argument is that, the referenced paper argues that the mice never learned to predict and the reduced PE responses are a consequence of a reduction in prediction strength (these mice never - in life - had experience of visuomotor coupling). Better evidence might be the acute changes observed in normal mice (see e.g. Figure 3B in https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22681686/ However, another finding from the paper referenced is that in mice reared without visuomotor coupling, MM responses of SST interneurons are unchanged, while those in PV interneurons are completely absent. Would the authors model come to similar results if trained in an environment with (very) high uncertainty and then tested in a low uncertainty environment?

      Thank you for pointing us to Figure 3B of Keller et al. 2012. We are now citing this result as it is indeed better evidence.

      Thank you very much for your illuminating question and for pointing out that a mouse that never experienced a predictable visual flow may not have formed a model of the visual flow, and hence may not have any prediction about its visual experience. We haven’t considered this scenario in our paper before. So far, we only considered scenarios, in which it is possible to learn a prediction, i.e. to infer the mean from the sensory input. We now consider this other scenario in which the mouse that was reared in an unpredictable environment did not form a prediction and compare SST (1) and PV (2) activity in this mouse to one that learned to form a prediction, and added it to the section "Predictions for different cell types":

      "Second, prediction error activity seems to decrease in less predictable, and hence more uncertain, contexts: in mice reared in a predictable environment [where locomotion and visual flow match, 42], error neuron responses to mismatches in locomotion and visual flow decreased with each day of experiencing these unpredictable mismatches. Third, the responses of SSTs and PVs to mismatches between locomotion and visual flow [4] are in line with our model (note that in this experiment the mismatches are negative prediction errors as visual flow was halted despite ongoing locomotion): In this study, SST responses decreased during mismatch, i.e. when the visual flow was halted, and there was no difference between mice reared in a predictable or unpredictable environment. In line with these observations, the authors concluded that SST responses reflected the actual visual input. In our model negative PE circuit, SSTs also reflect the actual stimulus input, which in our case was a whisker stimulus (SST rates in Fig. 6C and I reflect the stimuli (black and grey bar) in A and G, respectively) and SST rates are the same for high and low uncertainty (corresponding to mice reared in a predictable or unpredictable environment). In the same study, PV responses were absent towards mismatches in animals reared in an unpredictable environment [4]. The authors argued that mice reared in an unpredictable environment did not learn to form a prediction. In our model, the missing prediction corresponds to missing predictive input from the auditory domain (e.g. due to undeveloped synapses from the predictive auditory input). If we removed the predictive input in our model, PVs in the negative PE circuit would also be silent as they would not receive any of the excitatory predictive inputs."

      (7) "Our model further posits the existence of two distinct subtypes of SSTs in positive and negative error circuits." There is some evidence for this: Figure 5a in https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36747710/

      Thank you, we added this citation to the corresponding section.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The focus of this manuscript was to investigate the role of Cldn9 in the development of the mammalian cochlea. The main rationale of the study is the fact that cochlear hair cells do not regenerate, so when damaged they are lost forever, causing irreparable hearing loss. The authors have attempted to address this problem by inducing the ectopic production of additional hair cells and testing whether they acquire the morphological and functional characteristics of native hair cells. They show that downregulation of Cldn9 using a well-established genetic manipulation of transgenic mice led to the production of extra numerary inner hair cells, which were able to survive for several months. By performing a large battery of experiments, the authors were able to determine that the native and ectopic inner hair cells have comparable morphological and physiological characteristics. There are several conclusions highlighted by the authors in different parts of the manuscript, including the key role of Cldn9 in coordinating embryonic and postnatal development, the differentiation of supporting cells into inner hair cells, and the possible use of Cldn9 to induce inner hair cell differentiation following deafness induced by hair cell loss.

      Strengths:

      Several of the conclusions in this study are well supported by the experimental work.

      Weaknesses:

      Some aspects of the data and its interpretation needs better explanation and requires further investigation.

      (1) The Results section is the most difficult part to read and understand. It contains a very limited, and in some places confusing and repetitive, description of the data. Statistical analysis is missing for some of the key data (e.g., ABRs), and in some places the text contradicts the data presented in the figures (e.g., Figure 8). I am sure carefully revising the text would clarify some of these issues.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We revised parts of the results section and added the statistical analysis to the ABRs and DPOAE (lines 151-159; Page 29, lines 846-880). 

      (2) One puzzling finding that is not addressed in the manuscript is the lack of functional benefit from these additional inner hair cells. In fact, it appears to be detrimental based on the increased ABR thresholds. Maybe it would be useful to analyze the wave 1 characteristics.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We added the wave 1 characteristics as S8.

      (3) It is not clear what direct evidence there is, apart from some immunostaining, indicating that the ectopic inner hair cells derive from the supporting cells. This part would benefit from a more careful consideration and maybe an attempt at a more direct experimental approach.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We intend to investigate the origin of the ectopic inner hair cells using (for example, a qRT-PCR, sm FISH, etc.) in our future study.

      (4) One point that should be made clear throughout the manuscript is that the ectopic inner hair cells are generated in a cochlea that is undergoing normal maturation. Thus, there is no guarantee that modulating the expression levels of Cldn9 in a deaf mouse lacking hair cells would produce the same result as that shown in this study. My guess is that it probably won't, but I am sure this could be tested (maybe in the future) using the excellent experimental approach applied in this study.

      That is a great point. We will explore it in our future experiments.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The generation of functional extranumerary inner hair cells (IHCs) in postnatal mice, particularly with virus-mediated knockdown of Cldn9 mRNA expression in the neonatal cochlear duct, is an important observation. It is significant because not many studies exist that report molecular manipulations of the neonatal organ of Corti that result in the generation of new hair cells that remain functional and appear to be intact for an extended time, here more than one year. Overall, this is a carefully conducted study; the observations are clear, and the methods are solid. Two independent methods for reducing the expression of Cldn9 mRNA were used: a conditional transgenic model and AAV-mediated knockdown with shRNA. The lack of a functional explanation of how the reduced expression of Cldn9 specifically leads to the formation of extranumerary IHCs leaves open questions. For example, it is not clear whether there is indeed a fate change happening and whether Cldn9 reduction affects developmental processes. The discussion of how Cldn9 reduction potentially affects Notch signaling, without hard evidence, is handwaving.

      Strengths:

      It is a very interesting observation and somewhat unexpected in its specificity for inner hair cells. Using two different approaches to manipulate Cldn9 expression provides a strong experimental foundation. The study is conducted quantitatively and with care.

      Weaknesses:

      The lack of mechanistic insight results in an open-ended story where at least the potential interaction of Cldn9 reduction with known and well-characterized signaling pathway components should have been investigated. This missed opportunity limits the scope of the study and should be addressed: How does Cldn9 downregulation affect the expression levels of other known genes linked to hair cell production and cell fate decisions? Quantitative RT-PCR works well for the authors, and comparing the expression of Notch or other known pathway components could provide mechanistic insight.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We did quantitative RT-PCR to compare the expression of Notch or other known pathway components in our future work. Besides, we used smFISH with ccnd1 probe and cdkn1b probe to detect cyclin D1 and cyclin-dependent kinase inhibitor 1B (p27) separately in the mouse cochlea. GAPDH was selected as a reference gene. The quantification results showed no significant difference between Cldn9<sup>+/T</sup> mice and Cldn9<sup>+/+</sup> mice at P2, P7, and P14.

      It is unclear how P21 inner hair cells were identified for the patch-clamp experiments shown in Fig 4E-H. This is a challenging endeavor without the possibility of using specific markers.

      We did not have a specific marker for IHCs. However, one with experience in hair bundle morphology and knowledge of their location in the epithelia can identify IHCs from the upright microscope.

      Please also address the numerous minor points outlined below; it will improve the paper's readability.

      Thanks. Please find the point-to-point answers below.

      Please include page numbers and line numbers in a revised manuscript.

      We include page numbers and line numbers in a revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      This important study by Chen et al help in advancing our knowledge about the regulation of inner hair cell (IHC) development and revealed the role of Cldn9 in IHC embryonic and postnatal induction by transdifferentiation from the supporting cells. The authors developed an inducible doxycycline (dox)-tet-OFF-Cldn9 transgenic mice to regulate expression levels of Cldn9 and show that downregulation of Cldn9 resulted in additional, although incomplete row of IHCs immediately adjacent to the original IHC row. These induced extra IHCs had similar well developed hair bundles, able to mechanotransduce and were innervated by auditory neurons resembling wild-type IHCs. In addition, the authors knock down Cldn9 postnatally using shRNA injections in P1-7 mice with similar induction of extranumerary IHC next to the original row of IHCs. The conclusions of this paper are mostly well supported by the data, but some data analysis needed to be clarified and some crucial controls should be provided to improve the confidence in the presented results. There is a great potential for practical use of these valuable findings and new knowledge on IHC developmental regulation to design Cldn9 gene therapy in the future.

      The described by Chen et al mechanisms of extra hair cell generation by suppression of the tight junction protein Cldn9 expression level are very interesting and previously unknown. In particular, the generation of extra IHCs postnatally using downregulation of Cldn9 by shRNA could potentially be very useful as a replacement of HCs lost after noise-induced trauma, ototoxic agents, or other environmental trauma. On the other hand, the replacement of lost hair cells due to various genetic mutations by inducing a supernumerary IHCs with the same abnormalities would not be reasonable.

      The authors show that postnatally generated ectopic IHCs are viable and mechanotransducive, but it would be nice to show the maturation steps of ectopic IHC during this postnatal period. For example, stereocilia bundles of the ectopic hair cells should mature later than the original IHCs. A few days after viral delivery of shRNA, you should be able to observe immature IHC bundles that unequivocally will define newly generated IHCs. Unfortunately, the authors show only examples of already mature ectopic IHCs at P21 and in 5-6 weeks old mice and at relatively low resolution. Also, during maturation, IHCs usually have transient axo-somatic synapses that are not present in mature IHCs. It would be great to see if, in 5-6 weeks old mouse, the ectopic IHCs still have axo-somatic synapses or not, and if the majority of the ectopic IHCs have innervation. Some of the data in this study would benefit from showing corresponding controls and some - from higher resolution imaging.

      We appreciate the reviewer's suggestion. The objective of the paper is to report the phenomenon and present the coarse features of the Cldn9-mediated induced ectopic hair cells. The systematic details are for future studies, which are ongoing and out of the current scope.

      In the mammalian cochlea, each HC is separated from the next by intervening supporting cells, forming an invariant and alternating mosaic along the cochlea's length. Cochlear supporting cells in some conditions can divide and trans-differentiate into HCs, serving as a potential resource for HC differentiation, using transcription and other developmental signaling factors.

      However, when ectopic hair cells are generated from supporting cell trans-differentiation, the intricate mosaic of the organ of Corti is altered, which could by itself lead to hearing issues. In case of downregulation of Cldn9, the extra row of IHCs seems to be positioned immediately adjacent to the original IHC row. It is not clear if the newly formed unusual junctions between the ectopic and original IHCs are sufficiently tight to prevent leakage of the endolymph to the basolateral surface of IHCs. Also, it is not clear if the other organ of Corti tight junctions could lose their tightness due to the downregulation of Cldn9, which could over time affect the endocochlear potential as shown by this study and hearing abilities.

      There was a slightly increased ABR threshold (5 dB -15 dB) (Fig. 4A) and a decrease in the magnitude of the EP and the rise in the K<sup>+</sup> concentration in the endolymph and perilymph of Cldn9+/T mice compared to from age-matched littermates (S10) indicated there might be a compromised epithelium tight junction. The downregulation of Cldn9 affected the endocochlear potential and hearing abilities ((Fig. 4A, S10) after 2m, suggesting an age-dependent effect. The effective downregulation of Cldn9 would require proper titration of Cldn9 levels to induce extra hair cells with intact epithelial integrity; work may require additional studies.

      Importantly, CLDN9 immunofluorescence staining data that show cytoplasmic staining of supporting cells should be revisited and the organ of Corti schematics showing CLDN9 expression should be corrected, considering that CLDN9 localizes to the tight junctions of the reticular lamina as was shown by immunoEM in this study and described in previous publications (Kitajiri et al., 2004; Nakano et al., 2009, Ramzan et al., 2021). While the current version of the manuscript will interest scientists working in the inner ear development and regeneration field, it could be more valuable to hearing researchers outside this immediate field and perhaps developmental biologists and cell biologists after proper revision.

      We appreciate the reviewer's comments. We were concerned about the observation, but the results were consistent. Indeed, that was the motivation for performing the immunoEM (S3). A follow-up report may address it further.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Please address the points I made about the presentation (word choice, inconsistencies in labeling, etc). It ultimately helps a reader to understand and to follow your logic. This is an important observation.

      We corrected the inconsistencies in labeling and addressed the points you suggested.

      Making the extra effort to investigate a possible interaction between Cldn9 and Notch signaling would substantially increase the significance of the work.

      Thanks for the suggestions. We will explore it in our future work.

      Minor points:

      Some sentences would benefit from revision:

      - The abstract argues that hearing loss is incurable because mammalian hair cells are terminally differentiated (3rd sentence). This is not accurate.

      Mammalian HCs are terminally differentiated by birth, making HC loss challenging to replace.

      - The second sentence of the second paragraph of the introduction, "Cochlear SCs can divide and trans-differentiate into HCs, serving as a potential resource for HC differentiation, using transcription and developmental signaling factors (White et al., 2006)," should be referenced in the context of the animal's age. This feature of supporting cells is transient and only observed in neonatal mice. The following sentences in the same paragraph would also benefit from being placed into the same context when appropriate.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. These sentences have been corrected.

      - Introduction: "But functional features of the newly developed HC are circumspect." The authors probably meant "circumspect," but is this the appropriate word? Also, please use the plural of HC = HCs.

      The sentence has been corrected to “but the functional features of the newly developed HCs are circumspect”.

      - Introduction: Isn't an essential function of tight junctions in the organ of Corti the separation of fluid-filled spaces? Perhaps additional functions of tight junction proteins are unclear, but at least this one function appears clear.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We added the “additional” before the “function” in this sentence.

      - Introduction: "using shRNA injection in postnatal (P) days (P1-7) mice." This is a rather vague statement that could be better defined. Perhaps mention that the injections targeted the round window and that an AAV-based method was used. Also, it is not clear from the methods whether the injection needle pierced the round window. Please clarify. Likewise, the methods state that these experiments were conducted in P1-P15 mice, but the main text says P1-P7. Later, in the results section and in the figure legend for Fig 7, the mice are between P1-P7 and P14; the figure itself is labeled with P1 and P14. However, data is presented (Fig 6) for injections at P2, P4, P7, and P14. In the text referring to Fig 6B in the results section, it is stated, "By contrast, the P14-21 inner ear transfected with Cldn9-shRNA produced no detectable increase..." Only data for P2, P4, P7, and P14 injections are presented. These are minor issues, but please check the inconsistencies because they make it difficult to follow.

      We corrected this sentence to “Analogous additional putative IHCs differentiation was observed when Cldn9-shRNA was injected through the round window to postnatal (P) days (P2-7, and P14) mice…”.  The label in Fig 7A has been changed to P2-7, and the text referring to Fig 6B in the result section has been changed to “the P14 inner ear transfected with Cldn9-shRNA produced no detectable increase...".

      - Last statement of the Introduction: "making Cldn9 a viable target for generating transformed IHCs." It is not clear what transformed IHCs are.

      We replaced the transformed with supernumerary.

      - To understand the Southern Blot analysis in Fig 1E, the location of BstAPI and BamHI restriction sites and the probe need to be illustrated in Fig 1D.

      The restriction sites BstAPI, (Bst), and BamHI (Bam) are indicated (Fig. 1D).

      - Please define the purple arrows and arrowheads in Fig 1D. What do the different colors for the backbone mean? I see red and green, but also orange and yellow in the floxed allele. In Fig 1F, is "Knock-in" synonymous with homozygote? Would it be clearer to use the nomenclature Cldn9(T/T), Cldn9(T/+), and Cldn9(+/+), which is used later in the text?

      We have made the changes as requested.

      - Results, first paragraph: "Results of RT-PCR..." This refers to quantitative RT-PCR; please add the word "quantitative."

      Thanks. We added “quantitative” to the sentence.

      - Results and Fig S1. Is the strong upregulation of Cldn9 mRNA (S1A) also reflected in stronger Cldn9 immunoreactivity?

      Yes, the strong upregulation of Cldn9 mRNA showed higher cldn9 immunoreactivity.

      - Results, Fig 1. Please add a schematic drawing showing all elements of the inducible gene expression cassette in the final transgenic allele, and please illustrate how the system works. This helps the reader to understand the strong Cldn9 mRNA upregulation in Cldn9(T/T) mice, where expression is likely driven by the CMV promoter and reciprocally, in the presence of doxycycline, the suppression of transcription by binding of the tTA-dox protein to the TRE elements of the modified CMV promoter. Is this a correct assumption?

      Yes, this is a correct assumption

      - Results, about Fig S3. Why is it important to investigate Cldn6 and ILDR1 levels in the context of Cldn9 downregulation? Also, that is meant with "no comparative differences in others?". If a potential compensatory effect is suspected, why are the authors not systematically characterizing the expression of other tight junction proteins with quantitative RT-PCR? The results shown in S3 are anecdotal, without proper quantification, and lack context.

      The goal is to examine the potential compensatory changes in other TJ proteins. It was not to examine all possible TJ proteins localized in the inner ear.

      Results, section headed with "Downregulation of..." First sentence. Fig. 2A-C à Fig. 2A-E.

      Thanks. We corrected the sentence “5-week-old mice Cldn9<sup>+/T</sup> cochleae displayed a notable row of ectopic HCs (Fig. 2A-C).” to “5-week-old mice Cldn9<sup>+/T</sup> cochleae displayed a notable row of ectopic HCs (Fig. 2A-E).”

      The same section: "were negatively labeled with anti-prestin antibody." Consider "were not labeled with antibody to prestin." Likewise, a few sentences below, please consider rephrasing "the ectopic HCs ... reacted positively to otoferlin antibodies". Also, "...expressed multiple CtBP2 labeling..." - this reads like an incomplete sentence.

      Thanks for the suggestions. We have corrected the three sentences mentioned.

      The phrase "putative ectopic" lacks clarity because "putative" could refer to "ectopic" (like an adverb). Consider swapping the two words and writing "ectopic putative IHCs" or simply "ectopic IHCs."

      Thanks for the suggestions. We replaced the “putative ectopic IHCs” with “ectopic IHCs” in all contexts.

      Please use more precise figure labels when referring to a specific figure panel. For example, "Additionally, the ectopic HCs show IHC bundle features (Fig. 2)," - Bundles are shown in Fig 2D and Fig 2E. Please check all instances where a full figure is mentioned, but the specific reference is to a panel of the figure. Another example, "... using quantitative RT-PCR (S7)..." would be more specific if Fig S7A is referred to.

      Thanks for the suggestions. We checked all instances and corrected the labels. Thanks!

      "IHC counts at different ages (P2-P21) and the cochlear frequency segments (4-32 kHz) demonstrate..."- the figure shows data for 8 kHz and 32 kHz; please revise: "segments (8 kHz and 32 kHz) demonstrate."

      This sentence has been revised based on your suggestion. Thanks!

      Please add a legend to Fig. 3C (like the one shown in Fig. 2F).

      Thanks for the reminder. The legend for Fig. 3C was modified.

      Fig 4A and Fig 4B. It is impossible to distinguish the open/closed circles and the many lines. Please consider a different format or an extended supplemental figure. Also, drawing a line connection between the 32 kHz and click data points in 4A is inappropriate.

      Instead of the open/closed circles, the dashed line means Cldn9<sup>+/+</sup> mice, and solid lines represent Cldn9<sup>+/T</sup> mice. We added the line labels. The line connecting between 32 kHz and click data points was removed.

      Fig 4, legend. Please define BHB and BHC levels.

      BHB and BHC are defined.

      The paragraph "Synaptic features of PE IHCs match original IHCs" is confusing because it states the following: "The synapses between the IHCs and auditory neurons at the apical, middle, and basal cochlear locations from 5-week-old Cldn9+/+ and Cldn9+/T mice show substantial differences." The meaning of the heading, therefore, does not match what is ultimately shown and discussed.

      We have changed the title to “Synaptic features of ectopic IHCs and original IHCs”.

      Moreover, no actual features of synapses are investigated; CtBP2/Homer pairs were used to identify afferent synapses, which this reviewer would argue provides a reasonable estimate of the number of synapses where pre- and post-synaptic markers are detected in close vicinity. It would be helpful to describe the method for counting juxtaposed CtBP2 and Homer-labeled puncta with more detail.

      The method section now includes more information about the synapse count, which this reviewer would argue provides a reasonable estimate of the number of synapses where pre- and post-synaptic markers are detected in close proximity.

      The final concluding sentence of the section also suggests that synaptic transmission from PE IHCs might be compromised because significant differences in synapse numbers were identified. It would be important to mention this.

      Thanks for the reminder. We added this information to the final concluding sentence.

      Fig. 5C, 5D; legend. Is "co-expressed" the right word choice? Consider "colocalized" or "juxtaposed".

      The "co-expressed" has been replaced with "colocalized".

      Voltage-clamp recordings of P21 inner hair cell mechanoelectrical transduction currents. This reviewer cannot identify a previous publication describing the details of this method on P21 cochlear inner hair cells; this seems like an excellent methodological advance.

      Yes, we can record data from older mice. Thanks for pointing it out.

      "Transfection in vivo of Cldn9 shRNA," the P14-21 inner ear transfected with Cldn9-shRNA." Plus, additional use of the word "transfection." Transfection generally means the introduction of plain nucleic acid into cells. The word refers to methods that do not use viruses. In contrast, "transduction" is the term used for virus-mediated gene transfer. The authors used AAVs. Please correct for appropriate scientific terminology.

      Thanks for the clarification. This information has been corrected accordingly.

      "A slight decline in the amplitude of the EP and a substantial rise in perilymph K+ was detected in 8-month-old Cldn9+/T (S7)." Probably Fig. S8A,B is meant.

      Yes, it referred to Fig. S8 A, B. We corrected it in the result section. Thanks!

      Heading "Discussions" -> "Discussion"

      The focus of the second part of the discussion on potential interactions between Cldn9 suppression and known signaling pathways is essential. The logic that is presented with respect to Notch signaling, however, is not clear and misleading. For example, it is not obvious what is meant by "Cldn9 subserves the signaling catalyst to activate NICD cascades" and whether this statement is supported by any published data.

      The statement was a suggestion and has been qualified with a “may” clause (line 299).

      The authors might consider discussing whether the observed effect caused by Cldn9 elimination is a specific role of the Cldn9 protein itself or is an epiphenomenon resulting from cytomechanical changes in the developing and maturing organ of Corti. This would add a potential Notch-independent component for a possible interpretation of the observations.

      We state lines 302-304 “Alternatively, Cldn9 levels disruption may alter the mechanical properties of the developing and maturing organ of Corti that may trigger ectopic IHC differentiation, an epiphenomenon independent of the Notch signaling“.

      Methods:

      "Deletion of the selection marker in the tTA cassette by crossing the F1 mouse with the embryonic Cre line (B6.129S4-Meox2tm1(cre)Sor/J)." This sentence seems to be incomplete.

      Thanks for pointing it out. This sentence has been rewritten.

      "Images were captured under a confocal microscope." Consider writing "with a confocal microscope".

      This sentence has been corrected. Thanks!

      RNA extraction and... How many mice were used per experiment? 10-15 or just 10?

      The mice number for the RNA extraction is between 10 and 15. Thanks

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Below are my suggestions, questions, and criticisms.

      (1) The red outline on Fig1A schematic does not correspond to the previously published expression pattern of CLDN9 in the organ of Corti reticular lamina tight junctions (Kitajiri et al, 2004, Nakano et al., 2009, Ramzan et al., 2021). Also, there are no tight junctions all around the pillar cells. The tight junctions are restricted to the sites of tight attachments between two cells. The immunofluorescence staining using CLDN9 antibody looks rather cytoplasmic (Fig 1 and Fig S1) than associated with the tight junctions as it was shown by immunoEM data here and reported previously (Kitajiri et al, 2004; Nakano et al, 2009; Ramzan et al, 2021). Please correct the schematic and explain your data.

      We have redrawn the diagram (Fig. 7).

      (2) The CLDN9 staining in Figure 1, B and C, highlights the cytoplasm of the supporting cells, and hair cells devoid of the staining. From the images in Fig. S1C, it also looks like CLDN9 is present only in supporting cells and not in hair cells? How would the authors reconcile their data with Cldn9 expression data from the gEAR database and Ramzan et al.'s 2021 RNAscope data? Please provide the validation of the antibody used in this study.

      We recognize the reviewer’s concern but RNA and protein levels are not always in parallel.

      (3) Figure 1D. The dash lines from the targeting vector to the wt allele seem to indicate a recombination event. Please do not show the recombination event, instead just show what part of the targeting vector was incorporated to replace wt Cldn9. There is no description in the figure 1 legend what purple arrows and arrowheads mean and what yellow and orange line segments in the floxed allele schematic indicate. Please also show where the BstAPI and BamHI restriction enzyme sites are.

      We have provided supplement Fig 1., and have noted the BstAPI and BamHI restriction enzyme sites in Fig. 1D.

      (4) What does the organ of Corti that has 40-to-55-fold increase in Cldn9 mRNA expression looks like before dox treatment? Any abnormalities at all? How is CLDN9 protein localization looks in the Cldn9+/T untreated mice? Do they have normal number of IHCs? Cldn9+/T untreated mice should be used as another control at least in Figure S1. What does the organ of Corti that has a 40-to-55-fold increase in Cldn9 mRNA expression look like before dox treatment? Are there any abnormalities at all?

      The untreated Cldn9<sup>+/T</sup> mice can grow normally but are not fertile. So, we used a very low concentration of dox water (0.1 mg/ml) instead of normal water to keep the breeding pairs. The protein level increased in the Cldn9<sup>+/T</sup> mice compared with Cldn9<sup>+/+</sup>mice. With 0.1 mg/ml dox water, they also showed ectopic IHCs.

      (5) It is interesting that decline of 0.4-0.6-fold in mRNA level leads to about 8-fold decrease in protein level based on your immunoEM data on tight junctions of IHC with supporting cells. Do you observe the same effect in OHC-SC tight junctions, or the decrease was observed selectively around IHCs?

      The reviewer is alluding to matching RNA and protein levels. It appears that for Clnd9 one cannot expect a closely matched relationship.

      (6) The quality of the immunoEM data is great, but a control of secondary antibody alone staining in wt and Cldn9+/T dox treated should be shown and compared to the Cldn9+/T treated sample.

      We thank the reviewer for raising the issue. Secondary antibodies are used as a control in all immunoEMs in the laboratory. We opted not to show negative results.

      (7) The authors observed a decrease in Cldn6 expression albeit not quantitative in response to Cldn9 downregulation. How were the immunofluorescence signals compared and evaluated? Please provide a detailed description of the method used. Did the authors used the same image acquisition parameters? Was the Cldn9 and Cldn6 immunostaining done using same protocol with the same aliquot and dilution of the secondary antibodies, etc.? The staining for CLDN6 seems to be concentrated in the cytoplasm of supporting cells, and not in the tight junctions, similar to CLDN9 immunoreactivity shown in Fig. S1C and to the ILDR1 pattern of staining in Fig. S3. How can the authors explain this? How were the antibodies validated?

      The Cldn9 and Cldn6 immunostaining were done using the same protocol with the same aliquot and dilution of the secondary antibodies.

      (8) CLDN14 is also expressed in the organ of Corti tight junctions. What happened to this TJ protein during CLDN9 downregulation?

      We detected Cldn14 with immunostaining in the Cldn9+/T mice and Cldn9+/+ mice fed with 0.25 mg/ml dox water, and the results showed increased expression of Cldn14 in Cldn9+/T mice. Detail alterations of other TJ proteins have been reserved for future studies. 

      (9) When supernumerary IHCs were observed in Cldn9+/T mice, have the authors noticed a corresponding decrease in supporting cells surrounding IHCs? Quantification of the IHCs supporting cells would be useful. Do the ectopic IHCs have apical tight junctions with original IHCs or they are surrounded by supporting cells?

      We quantified the SCs around the IHCs but did not detect significant differences among the groups.

      (10) The authors indicated that viable PE IHCs were observed in 15 months old Cldn9+/T dox treated mice. How stereocilia bundles look in these ectopic hair cells? Are they preserved similar to the original IHCs or degenerated? It is hard to see this in Fig 3, phalloidin panel. High-resolution SEM would show this better.

      For the remaining ectopic IHCs in 15 months, we did not detect apparent differences in hair bundles compared with the original IHCs.

      (11) Interestingly, the authors indicate that the highest number of the ectopic IHCs were developed in the apical turn and the higher elevation of ABR threshold was also observed at low frequencies end. This may indicate that extra IHCs do not help hearing function.

      The extra IHCs showed along the whole cochlea, even though it is more obvious in the apical turn. The declined hearing may have resulted from the leakage of the endolymph K+ to the perilymph and EP decline.

      (12) No age-matched wt control is shown for decreased expression of Cldn9 after shRNA injection at P2 (Fig. 6A).

      As indicated earlier, we opted to state but did not show negative results.

      (13) Figure 6C. The better- quality SEM images showing a longer stretch of IHCs are needed to convince readers that there are ectopic IHCs that are well preserved in 5-6 weeks old mice in all cochlear turns after GFP-Cldn9 shRNA treatment at P2-P7.

      In S4, we showed that there are ectopic IHCs along the cochlear axis.

      (14) Do scrambled shRNA control samples had some ectopic IHCs? This control is missing in Fig.6D.

      No scrambled shRNA controls did not show ectopic IHCs. We have stated it.

      (15) Figure 7B, lower schematic. There are no known continuous tight junctions and CLDN9 expression around the OHCs and IHCs. CLDN9 is known to be concentrated at the reticular lamina tight junctions which separate the endolymph from perilymph. Please, correct all schematics accordingly.

      We have made the changes as requested.

      Minor comments:

      (1) Page 1, Abstract. I would not say "making HC loss incurable" since recent gene therapy results show some advances in this direction. Please rephrase more accurately.

      We have made the changes as requested.

      (2) Page 4, Results, line 5; please rephrase "PCR of tail tissue samples performed genotyping."

      It has been corrected to “The genotyping was performed by the PCR with the tail tissue.”

      (3) Fig. 1 legend, panel B, replace "showing IHC stained myosin7a" with "showing IHC stained by myosin7a". Also, in the same sentence, "phalloidin, actin (green) antibodies," Phalloidin is not an antibody; please change this.

      Thanks. We have corrected this information.

      (4) Fig 2C, IHC label obscures the view of IHCs, please move this label out and use an arrow to point to IHCs.

      We have made the changes as requested.

      (5) Figure 4, title. Replace "currents elicited original" with "current elicited from original".

      This sentence has been corrected. Thanks.

      (6) Figure 4, panel A. It is hard to see the open symbols on the graph. Are they associated with the dash lines? Please make them more visible or indicate what dash lines are. "ABR threshold for (n=12)" should be "ABR threshold for Cldn9+/+(n=12)"?

      Yes, they are associated with the dash lines. We added the labels for the solid lines and dash lines. "ABR threshold for (n=12)" was corrected to "ABR threshold for Cldn9+/+(n=12)."

      (7) Figure 4, legend. "Within each wt and heterozygote mice, there was no significant shift...". Do you mean within each group of mice? Also "Mean DPOAE threshold for 2-8 mos (n=9) was tested,..." Do you mean (n=9) for each group or what group?

      Yes, "Within each wt and heterozygote mice, there was no significant shift..." has been revised. The number of mice in each group for the DPOAE test was clarified in the Fig. 4B legend. Thanks.

      (8) Please label the X axis in Figure 4D.

      The X-axis has been labeled (Time (s))

      (9) Figure 4 B, do the colors of the lines indicate the same age groups as in Fig 4A? Do the dash lines associate with open symbols? Please state this clearly in the figure's legend.

      Yes. We added this information in Fig. 4B legend.

      (10) Figure 4D. Please label the X axis of the fluorescence intensity graph.

      The X-axis has been labeled (Time (s))

      (11) Figure 4G, legend. Replace "(mean +std)" with "(mean +SD)" for consistency here and in Figure 5 legend.

      Thanks. We replaced "(mean +std)" with "(mean +SD) in the legend of Fig. 4G and Fig.5 and Fig.6.

      (12) Figure 5B, legend. Replace "makers" with "markers".

      Thanks. This information was corrected.

      (13) Figure 6A, legend. There is no downregulation of Cldn9 by shRNA shown in "S5". Do the authors mean Figure S7? Please, correct "S5" to "Fig. S7".

      This information was corrected. Thanks.

      (14) Figure 6A, legend. There is no reduced CLDN9 protein expression shown in Fig. 1C. Do the authors mean Fig. 6A, third panel? Please correct the phrase "reduced protein expression (Fig. 1C) is shown in the 3rd Panel (Cldn9, red)" accordingly, and do not capitalize "p" in the "3rd Panel".

      This information was corrected. Thanks (line 917-918).

      (15) Also there, replace "The right Panel shows two rows of IHCs (marked HC marker, Myo7a (cyan), and the merged photomicrograph" with "The right panel shows the merged image with two rows of IHCs stained with HC marker Myo7a (cyan) and the expression of Ad-GFP-mCldn9 shRNA (green) in the adjacent row of supporting cells". Please indicate in what cells Ad-GFP-mCldn9 shRNA (green) is expressed. It looks like only one row of supporting cells has this green signal.

      This information was corrected.

      (16) Figure 6B, legend. Replace "Examples of photomicrographs of sections of the whole-mount cochlea of P2, P4, P7, and P14 Cldn9 shRNA injected mice" with "Examples of phalloidin stained whole-mount organ of Corti samples from cochleae of the wild-type mice injected at P2, P4, P7 and P14 with Cldn9 shRNA"

      This sentence has been modified based on your suggestions. Thanks!

      (17) Replace "action labeling" with "actin labeled."

      Thanks!  The "action labeling" has been replaced with "actin labeled." Line 924

      (18) Figure 6C. Insert "C" before SEM images description in the legend. The authors stated that SEM images of "5-6-wks-old mice" are shown. Please indicate the exact age of mice shown on each image and at what age these mice received the virus injection.

      Thanks!  The “C” has been added. We have noted that the SEM images are from 5-week-old mice" in the legend, and the virus was injected at P2.

      (19) Figure 6D, legend. Last sentence: move "are significantly different" and insert this between "IHCs" and "at P2 apex".

      This information was corrected.

      (20) Figure S7, legend. Replace "(sram)" with "(scram)" as in the figure itself. Also, Indicate the age of samples at the harvesting time for imaging and the age at injection of Cldn9 shRNA.

      "(sram)" has been replaced with "(scram)". The age of samples at the harvesting time for imaging and the age at injection of Cldn9 shRNA are indicated.

      (21) Figure S8. Replace "4 mos-old" and "8 mos-old" with "4 months-old" and "8 months-old" everywhere in the legend and in the figure labels.

      We have made the changes as suggested.

      (22) Page 8, 5th lane from the bottom. Change "EP and K+ concentration endolymph" to "EP and K+ concentration of the endolymph".

      It has been corrected. Thanks.

      (23) Page 8, next to the last sentence before the Discussion. Wrong figure number, please replace "(S7)" with "Fig. S8".

      It has been corrected. Thanks.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Joint Public Review:

      Summary:

      The authors aimed to identify the neural sources of behavioral variation in fruit flies deciding between odor and air, or between two odors.

      Strengths:

      - The question is of fundamental importance.

      - The behavioral studies are automated, and high-throughput.

      - The data analyses are sophisticated and appropriate.

      - The paper is clear and well-written aside from some initially strong wording.

      - The figures beautifully illustrate their results.

      - The modeling efforts mechanistically ground observed data correlations.

      Weaknesses:

      - The correlations between behavioral variations and neural activity/synapse morphology are relatively weak, and sometimes overstated in the wording that describes them.

      We sincerely thank the reviewers for these evaluations.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Line 56: "We hypothesize that as sensory cues are encoded and transformed to produce motor outputs, their representation in the nervous system becomes increasingly idiosyncratic and predictive of individual behavioral responses". This seems obvious a priori. The sensory stimuli are the same, but the motor responses are different. Along the way there has to be a progression from same to different. Is there an alternative hypothesis? If so, perhaps state the alternative.

      We added text to the first paragraph of the introduction (lines 58-60) laying out an alternative hypothesis that individuality emerges through biomechanical differences and environmental interactions, and we have altered our motivating question to assess whether circuit elements in which activity is predictive of individual behavior exist, and if so, where (lines 60-62).

      Line 157: typo "remaining"

      We changed “remaining” to “remain” (line 160).

      Line 163: why report r sometimes and R^2 other times? Better to use R^2 throughout.

      We changed all instances of r to R<sup>2</sup>, notably when reporting combined train/test statistics for calcium - behavior models (line 162). We also reframed the outputs (medians + 90% confidence intervals) of the supplemental analysis inferring the strength of the latent calcium-behavior relationship to be in terms of R<sup>2</sup> (lines 166, 173-175, 241, 252; modified text in Inference of correlation between latent calcium and behavior states in Materials and Methods; adjusted figure and caption for Figure 1 – figure supplement 9).

      Line 182: "odorant". Should be "odorant receptors"?

      We respectfully disagree – our ORN and PN calcium data are responses to odorants in 5 glomerulus/odorant receptor types. When we group PCA loadings by glomerulus for both ORN and PN calcium, the consistency within groups is much stronger than when we group the loadings by odorant (Figure 1 – figure supplement 8). Additionally, “odorant receptor organization” would mean the same thing as “glomerular organization,” since all ORNs expressing the same odorant receptor project to a single glomerulus.

      Line 331: "harbor". Maybe more modestly "contribute to"?

      We changed “harbor” to “contribute to” (line 334) and added additional moderating language that the difference in DC2 and DM2 activations in PNs explains a large portion of the individuality signal (lines 337-339).

      Line 403: typo "is"

      We retained “is” as the corresponding verb for “the net effect,” but we adjusted the position of the reference to Gomez-Marin and Ghazanfar, 2019 for more clarity (lines 406-408).

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1(Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript details the results of a small pilot study of neoadjuvant radiotherapy followed by combination treatment with hormone therapy and dalpiciclib for early-stage HR+/HER2-negative breast cancer.

      Strengths:

      The strengths of the manuscript include the scientific rationale behind the approach and the inclusion of some simple translational studies.

      Weaknesses:

      The main weakness of the manuscript is that overly strong conclusions are made by the authors based on a very small study of twelve patients. A study this small is not powered to fully characterize the efficacy or safety of a treatment approach, and can, at best, demonstrate feasibility. These data need validation in a larger cohort before they can have any implications for clinical practice, and the treatment approach outlined should not yet be considered a true alternative to standard evidence-based approaches.

      I would urge the authors and readers to exercise caution when comparing results of this 12-patient pilot study to historical studies, many of which were much larger, and had different treatment protocols and baseline patient characteristics. Cross-trial comparisons like this are prone to mislead, even when comparing well powered studies. With such a small sample size, the risk of statistical error is very high, and comparisons like this have little meaning.

      We greatly appreciate your evaluation of our study and fully agree with the limitations you have pointed out. We have clearly stated the limitations of the small sample size and emphasized the need for a larger population to validate our preliminary findings in the discussion section (Lines 311-316).

      We acknowledge that this small sample size is not powered to characterize this regimen as a promising alternative regimen in the treatment of patients with HR-positive, HER2-negative breast cancer. Therefore, we have revised the description of this regimen to serve as a feasible option for neoadjuvant therapy in HR-positive, HER2-negative breast cancers both in the discussion (Lines 317-320) and the abstract (Lines 71-72).

      We agree with you that cross-trial comparisons should be approached with caution due to differences in study designs and patient populations. In our discussion section, we acknowledge that small sample size limited the comparison of our data with historical data in the literature due to the potential bias (Lines 312-313). We clearly state that such comparisons hold limited significance (Lines 313-314) and suggest a larger population to validate our preliminary findings.

      • Why was dalpiciclib chosen, as opposed to another CDK4/6 inhibitor?

      Thank you for your comments. The rationale for selecting dalpiciclib over other CDK4/6 inhibitors in our study is primarily based on the following considerations:

      (1) Clinical Efficacy: In several clinical trials, including DAWNA-1 and DAWNA-2, the combination of dalpiciclib with endocrine therapies such as fulvestrant, letrozole, or anastrozole has been shown to significantly extend the progression-free survival (PFS) in patients with hormone receptor-positive, HER2-negative advanced breast cancer (1-2).

      (2) Tolerability and Management of Adverse Reactions: The primary adverse reactions associated with dalpiciclib are neutropenia, leukopenia, and anemia. Despite these potential side effects, the majority of patients are able to tolerate them, and with proper monitoring and management, these reactions can be effectively mitigated (1-2).

      (3) Comparable pharmacodynamic with other CDK4/6 inhibitors: The combination of CDK4/6 inhibitors, including palbociclib, ribociclib, and abemaciclib, with aromatase inhibitors has demonstrated an enhanced ability to suppress tumor proliferation and increase the rate of clinical response in neoadjuvant therapy for HR-positive, HER2-negative breast cancer (3-5). Furthermore, preclinical studies have shown that dalpiciclib has comparable in vivo and in vitro pharmacodynamic activity to palbociclib, suggesting its potential effectiveness in similar treatment regimens (6).

      (4) Accessibility and Regulatory Approval: Dalpiciclib has gained marketing approval in China on December 31, 2021, which facilitates the accessibility of this medication, making it a more convenient option when considering treatment plans.

      References:

      (1) Zhang P, Zhang Q, Tong Z, et al. Dalpiciclib plus letrozole or anastrozole versus placebo plus letrozole or anastrozole as first-line treatment in patients with hormone receptor-positive, HER2-negative advanced breast cancer (DAWNA-2): a multicentre, randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled, phase 3 trial(J). The Lancet Oncology, 2023, 24(6): 646-657.

      (2) Xu B, Zhang Q, Zhang P, et al. Dalpiciclib or placebo plus fulvestrant in hormone receptor-positive and HER2-negative advanced breast cancer: a randomized, phase 3 trial(J). Nature medicine, 2021, 27(11): 1904-1909.

      (3) Hurvitz S A, Martin M, Press M F, et al. Potent cell-cycle inhibition and upregulation of immune response with abemaciclib and anastrozole in neoMONARCH, phase II neoadjuvant study in HR+/HER2− breast cancer(J). Clinical Cancer Research, 2020, 26(3): 566-580.

      (4) Prat A, Saura C, Pascual T, et al. Ribociclib plus letrozole versus chemotherapy for postmenopausal women with hormone receptor-positive, HER2-negative, luminal B breast cancer (CORALLEEN): an open-label, multicentre, randomised, phase 2 trial(J). The lancet oncology, 2020, 21(1): 33-43.

      (5) Ma C X, Gao F, Luo J, et al. NeoPalAna: neoadjuvant palbociclib, a cyclin-dependent kinase 4/6 inhibitor, and anastrozole for clinical stage 2 or 3 estrogen receptor–positive breast cancer(J). Clinical Cancer Research, 2017, 23(15): 4055-4065.

      (6) Long F, He Y, Fu H, et al. Preclinical characterization of SHR6390, a novel CDK 4/6 inhibitor, in vitro and in human tumor xenograft models(J). Cancer science, 2019, 110(4): 1420-1430.

      • The eligibility criteria are not consistent throughout the manuscript, sometimes saying early breast cancer, other times saying stage II/III by MRI criteria.

      criteria in our manuscript. We deeply apologize for any confusion caused by these inconsistencies. We have revised the term from “early-stage HR-positive, HER2-negative breast cancer” to “early or locally advanced HR-positive, HER2-negative breast cancer” (Lines 128 and 150). The term “early or locally advanced” encompasses two different stages of breast cancer, whereas “Stage II/III by MRI criteria” refers to specific stages within the TNM staging system.

      • The authors should emphasize the 25% rate of conversion from mastectomy to breast conservation and also report the type and nature of axillary lymph node surgery performed. As the authors note in the discussion section, rates of pathologic complete response/RCB scores are less prognostic for hormone-receptor-positive breast cancer than other subtypes, so one of the main rationales for neoadjuvant medical therapy is for surgical downstaging. This is a clinically relevant outcome.

      We appreciate your constructive comments. Based on your suggestions, we have made the following revisions and additions to the article.

      The breast conservation rate serves as a secondary endpoint in our study (Line 62 and 179). We have highlighted the significant 25% conversion rate from mastectomy to breast conservation in both the results (Lines 229-230) and discussion sections (Lines 290-292).

      In our study, all patients underwent lymph node surgery, including sentinel lymph node biopsy or axillary lymph node dissection. Among them, 58.3% of patients (7/12) underwent sentinel lymph node biopsies.

      We agree with your point that the prognostic value of pathologic complete response/RCB score is lower for hormone receptor-positive breast cancer compared to other subtypes, we have revised the discussion section to clarify that one of the principal objectives for neoadjuvant therapy in this patient population is to facilitate downstaging and enhance the rate of breast conservation (Lines 289-290). And also emphasized that this neoadjuvant therapeutic regiment appeared to improve the likelihood of pathological downstaging and achieve a margin-free resection, particularly for those with locally advanced and high-risk breast cancer (Lines 293-295).

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Firstly, as this is a single-arm preliminary study, we are curious about the order of radiotherapy and the endocrine therapy. Besides, considering the radiotherapy, we also concern about the recovery of the wound after the surgery and whether related data were collected.

      Thanks for the comments. The treatment sequence in this study is to first administer radiotherapy, followed by endocrine therapy. A meta-analysis has indicated that concurrent radiotherapy with endocrine therapy does not significantly impact the incidence of radiation-induced toxicity or survival rates compared to a sequential approach (1). In light of preclinical research suggesting enhanced therapeutic efficacy when radiotherapy is delivered prior to CDK4/6 inhibitors, we have opted to administer radiotherapy before the combination therapy of CDK4/6 inhibitors and hormone therapy (2).

      In our study, we collected data on surgical wound recovery. All 12 patients had Class I incisions, which healed by primary intention. The wounds exhibited no signs of redness, swelling, exudate, or fat necrosis.

      References:

      (1) Li Y F, Chang L, Li W H, et al. Radiotherapy concurrent versus sequential with endocrine therapy in breast cancer: A meta-analysis(J). The Breast, 2016, 27: 93-98.

      (2) Petroni G, Buqué A, Yamazaki T, et al. Radiotherapy delivered before CDK4/6 inhibitors mediates superior therapeutic effects in ER+ breast cancer(J). Clinical Cancer Research, 2021, 27(7): 1855-1863.

      Secondly, in the methodology, please describe the sample size estimation of this study and follow up details.

      Thanks for pointing out this crucial omission. Sample size estimation for this study and follow-up details have been added in the methodology section. The section on sample size estimation has been revised to state in Statistical analysis: “This exploratory study involves 12 patients, with the sample size determined based on clinical considerations, not statistical factors (Lines 210-211).” The section on follow up has been revised to state in Procedures section “A 5-year follow-up is conducted every 3 months during the first 2 years, and every 6 months for the subsequent 3 years. Additionally, safety data are collected within 90 days after surgery for subjects who discontinue study treatment (Lines 169-172).”

      Thirdly, in Table 1, the item HER2 expression, it's better to categorise HER2 into 0, 1+, 2+ and FISH-.

      Thank you very much for pointing out this issue. The item HER2 expression in Table 1 has been revised from “negative, 1+, 2+ and FISH-” to “0, 1+, 2+ and FISH-”.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Lodhiya et al. demonstrate that antibiotics with distinct mechanisms of action, norfloxacin and streptomycin, cause similar metabolic dysfunction in the model organism Mycobacterium smegmatis. This includes enhanced flux through the TCA cycle and respiration as well as a build-up of reactive oxygen species (ROS) and ATP. Genetic and/or pharmacologic depression of ROS or ATP levels protect M. smegmatis from norfloxacin and streptomycin killing. Because ATP depression is protective, but in some cases does not depress ROS, the authors surmise that excessive ATP is the primary mechanism by which norfloxacin and streptomycin kill M. smegmatis. In general, the experiments are carefully executed; alternative hypotheses are discussed and considered; the data are contextualized within the existing literature.

      We thank the reviewer for the very comprehensive summary of the study.

      Strengths:

      The authors tackle a problem that is both biologically interesting and medically impactful, namely, the mechanism of antibiotic-induced cell death.

      Experiments are carefully executed, for example, numerous dose- and time-dependency studies; multiple, orthogonal readouts for ROS; and several methods for pharmacological and genetic depletion of ATP.

      There has been a lot of excitement and controversy in the field, and the authors do a nice job of situating their work in this larger context.

      Inherent limitations to some of their approaches are acknowledged and discussed e.g., normalizing ATP levels to viable counts of bacteria.

      We thank the reviewer for the encouraging comments.

      Weaknesses:

      All of the experiments performed here were in the model organism M. smegmatis. As the authors point out, the extent to which these findings apply to other organisms (most notably, slow-growing pathogens like M. tuberculosis) is to be determined. To avoid the perception of overreach, I would recommend substituting "M. smegmatis" for Mycobacteria (especially in the title and abstract).

      At first glance, a few of the results in the manuscript seem to conflict with what has been previously reported in the (referenced) literature. In their response to reviewers, the authors addressed my concerns. It would also be ideal to include a few lines in the manuscript briefly addressing these points. (Other readers may have similar concerns).

      In the first round of review, I suggested that the authors consider removing Figs. 9 and 10A-B as I believe they distract from the main point of the paper and appear to be the beginning of a new story rather than the end of the current one. I still hold this opinion. However, one of the strengths of the eLife model is that we can agree to disagree.

      We acknowledge the reviewer’s concern and have changed title of the manuscript by including Mycobacterium smegmatis instead of Mycobacteria. The abstract already mentioned the same.

      In the discussion section of the revised manuscript, we have already addressed and analysed our results extensively within the context of the available literature, regardless of whether our findings aligned with or differed from previous studies. We still believe that the mentioned discussion will help suffice to explain our results to the readers.

      In this manuscript we also sought to assess the bacteria's ability to counteract drug induced stresses, contributing to our understanding of how antibiotic tolerance develop in Mycobacterium smegmatis. Results presented in Figure 9 clearly demonstrate that M.smegmatis attempt to reduce respiration by decreasing flux through the complete TCA cycle, thereby mitigating ROS and ATP production in response to antibiotics.  Additionally, the bacterial response also included increased expression of the protein Eis, which is exemplar for intrinsic drug resistance, with a concomitant increase in mutation frequency, thereby hinting at the development of antibiotic tolerance followed by resistance. We still believe that these data should be included to support our observations and they make the study more comprehensive.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors are trying to test the hypothesis that ATP bursts are the predominant driver of antibiotic lethality of Mycobacteria

      Strengths:

      No significant strengths in the current state as it is written.

      Weaknesses:

      A major weakness is that M. smegmatis has a doubling time of three hours and the authors are trying to conclude that their data would reflect the physiology of M. tuberculossi that has a doubling time of 24 hours. Moreover, the authors try to compare OD measurements with CFU counts and thus observe great variabilities.

      Comments on revisions:

      I am surprised that the authors simply did not repeat the study in figure one with CFU counts and repeated in triplicate. Since this is M. smegmatis, it would take no longer than two weeks to repeat this experiment and replace the figure. I understand that obtaining CFU counts is much more laborious than OD measurements but it is necessary. Your graph still says that there is 0 bacteria at time 0, yet in your legend it says you started with 600,000 CFU/ml. I don't understand why this experiment was not repeated with CFU counts measured throughout. This is not a big ask since this is M. smegmatis but it appears that the authors do not want to repeat this experiment. Minimally, fix the graph to represent the CFU.

      We acknowledge the reviewer’s concern and have changed title of the manuscript by specifying Mycobacterium smegmatis instead of Mycobacteria.

      It is still not clear to the authors what the reviewer mean by OD measurements. All the data presented in the entire manuscript , including in Figure 1 are solely based on CFU measurements. So, as suggested by the reviewer, all experiments are already presented in terms of CFU.

    1. Author response:

      We thank the editors and reviewers for the constructive assessment. We plan to address the comments as follows:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      We are generating a new cohort of Lv-TGFB2 overexpressing mice in which IOP will be compared under the anesthesia conditions that are identical for diurnal and nocturnal states. Parenthetically, we used the awake (diurnal) and isoflurane (nocturnal) anesthesia to mirror the conditions in the Patel et al (2021) PNAS study.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      We are not sure what the Reviewer means by the “difference between the message and transcript data” and are not sure whether providing evidence about the TRPV4-dependence of the expression of fibrotic genes and canonical TGFb2 pathway genes fits within the scope of our study (which focuses on the TGFB2-dependence of TRPV4 expression and IOP regulation). We propose to address this by including new data about the TGFb2- and TRPV4 dependence of TRPV4 and Piezo1 expression. We could include information about the effect of TGFB2 on fibrosis-related genes from a (submitted study) in which we used RNASeq to investigate TGFB2 and TGFB2 + HC067047-dependence of gene expression in TM cells on a confidential basis but not include it in the revised manuscript.

      - Re:  b-tubulin comment  [b-tubulin associates with the plasma membrane by binding to integral membrane proteins in the plasma and organellar membranes, through palmitoylation and attachment to linker proteins and as an integral component of exocytotic vesicles (Wolff, BBA 2009; Hogerheide et al., PNAS 2017). Together with b-actin and Gapdh it is often used as a loading control to assess cellular TRPV4 protein expression (e.g., https://www.cellsignal.com/products/primary-antibodies/trpv4-antibody/65893; Grove et al., Science Signaling 2019 and Moore et al., PNAS 2013).  Our qPCR and RNASeq studies show that TGFB2 does not affect b-tubulin expression]

      - We will provide a higher resolution image for Fig. 4A

      - Will address the Fig 5A and 6A comment [We thank the Reviewer for noticing the ambiguity and revised Figure Legends to clarify that “pre-injection” in Figures 5B and 6B refers to IOP measurements before the intracameral injection of HC-06  not pre-injection of lentiviral constructs].

      -  We will address the issue of constitutive TRPV4 activity and Piezo1 involvement in the revised Discussion.

      We hope this is sufficient information at this point but would be more than happy to provide more information if needed.

      Thank you, we are very impressed by the eLife review protocols.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment:

      This study provides valuable insights, addressing the growing threat of multi-drug-resistant (MDR) pathogens by focusing on the enhanced efficacy of colistin when combined with artesunate and EDTA against colistin-resistant Salmonella strains. The evidence is solid, supported by comprehensive microbiological assays, molecular analyses, and in vivo experiments demonstrating the effectiveness of this synergic combination. However, the discussion on the clinical application challenges of this triple combination is incomplete, and it would benefit from addressing the high risk associated with using three potential nephrotoxic agents in vivo.

      The development of novel pharmaceutical dosage forms, pharmacokinetic, pharmacodynamic and safety analysis of the triple combination will be further conducted in our next study to provide a theoretical basis for the next clinical drug use. The discussion of potential toxicity of AS, colistin, EDTA and the triple combination have been added in line 318 to 337.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      (1) The study focuses on a limited number of Salmonella strains, and broader testing on various MDR pathogens would strengthen the findings.

      The number of COL-resistant clinical strains that actually used was larger than that mentioned in our original article, when evaluating the antimicrobial activities of AS, EDTA, COL alone or drug combinations. But, considering that there were superfluous results of mcr-1 positive Salmonella strains, we omitted these results (Table supplement 7 and 8 in revised supplement materials) to avoid redundant data presentation in the original article. Additionally, much more gram-negative and -positive MDR bacteria, such as Klebsiella pneumoniae, Pseudomonas aeruginosa and Staphylococcus aureus will be selected for the next study including the development of novel pharmaceutical dosage forms, pharmacokinetic, pharmacodynamic and safety analysis et al.

      (2) While the study elucidates several mechanisms, further molecular details could provide deeper insights into the interactions between these drugs and bacterial targets.

      In our next study, further molecular details will be focused on the regulatory targets of CheA and SpvD-related pathways, as well as the precise inhibition targets of MCR protein by the triple combination, through the generation of deletion or point mutations, and analysis of intermolecular interactions.

      (3) The time-kill experiment was conducted over 12 hours instead of the recommended 24 hours. To demonstrate a synergistic effect among the drugs, a reduction of at least 2 log10 in colony count should be shown in a 24-hour experiment. Additionally, clarifying the criteria for selecting drug concentrations is important to improve the interpretation of the results.

      The time-kill experiment of 24 hours have been re-executed and could be used to replace the Figure 1 in the original paper. The New Figure 1 has been uploaded and the change do not affect our interpretation of the result.

      Although in vitro studies have determined that with increasing dose of AS and EDTA, the antibacterial synergistic activity was gradually enhanced, and meanwhie, may also resulting in more toxic side effects. Thus, in our study, the 1/8 MICs of AS and EDTA were selected to ensure excellent antibacterial activity whereas minimize the potential toxicity. The instructions on the selection of drug concentration have been added in line 323 to 326.

      (4) While the combination of EDTA, artesunate, and colistin shows promising in vitro results against Salmonella strains, the clinical application of this combination warrants careful consideration due to potential toxicity issues associated with these compounds.

      The development of novel pharmaceutical dosage forms, pharmacokinetic, pharmacodynamic and safety analysis of the triple combination will be further conducted in our next study to provide a theoretical basis for the next clinical drug use.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      (1) The study by Zhai et al describes repurposing of artesunate, to be used in combination with EDTA to resensitize Salmonella spp. to colistin. The observed effect applied both to strains with and without mobile colistin resistance determinants (MCR). It was already known that EDTA in combination with colistin has an inhibitory effect on MCR-enzymes, but at the same time, both colistin and EDTA can contribute to nephrotoxicity, something which is also true for artesunate. Thus, the triple combination of three nephrotoxic agents has significant challenges in vivo, which is not particularly discussed in this paper.

      The discussion of potential toxicity of triple combination has been added in line 318 to 337.

      (2) The selection of strains is not very clear. Nothing is known about the sequence types of the strains or how representative they are for strains circulating in general. Thus, it is difficult to generalize from this limited number of isolates, although the studies done in these isolates are comprehensive.

      The tested strains in this study were all COL-resistant clinical isolates, and the genome sequencing and comparative analysis of these strains have not been analyzed. The antibacterial activities of different antimicrobial drugs against the S16 and S30 strains have been measured and listed in the Table supplement 9 within revised supplement materials. Considering that the number of COL-resistant clinical strains that actually used was larger than that mentioned in our original article (see the NO.1 response to the Public Reviewer #1), we think that the results obtained in this study could be representative to some extent.

      (3) Nothing is known about the susceptibility of the strains to other novel antimicrobial agents. Colistin has a limited role in the treatment of gram-negative infections, and although it can be used sometimes in combination, it is not clear why it would be combined with two other nephrotoxic agents and how this could have relevance in a clinical setting.

      The antibacterial activities of different antimicrobial drugs against the S16 and S30 strains have been measured and listed in the Table supplement 9 within revised supplement materials. Additionally, the discussion of potential toxicity of triple combination has been added in line 318 to 337.

      (4) It is not clear whether their transcriptomics analysis should at least be carried out in duplicate for reasons of being able to assess reproducibility. It is also not clear why the samples were incubated for 6 hours - no discussion is presented on the selection of a time point for this.

      As it can be seen from the time kill curves that the survival number of bacteria started to decrease after 4 h incubation of drug combinations. If the incubation time is too short (for example less than 4 h), the differentially expressed genes can not be fully revealed, while too long incubation time (such as 8 h and 12 h) may lead to a significant CFU reduction of bacteria, and result in inaccurate sequencing results. Therefore, we selected the incubation time 6 h, at which point drugs exhibited  significant antibacterial effects and there were also enough survival bacteria in the sample for transcriptome analysis. Each sample had three replications to preserve the accuracy of results.

      (5) Discussion is lacking on the reproducibility and selection of details for the methodology.

      The results obtained in this paper have been repeated several times, which indicated that the detailed operation steps described in the materials and methods section were reproducibility. To avoid redundancy, we did not include too much details in the discussion section.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      (1) Number of strains tested.

      The number of COL-resistant clinical strains that actually used was larger than that mentioned in our original article (see the NO.1 response to the Public Reviewer #1)

      (2) Response to comment: Lack of data on cytotoxicity.

      The pharmacokinetic, pharmacodynamic and safety analysis of the triple combination will be further conducted in our next study to provide a theoretical basis for the next clinical drug use.

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Introduction:

      The introduction should provide more context about the pathogen Salmonella, its significance in both human and veterinary medicine, and the impact of colistin resistance in these pathogens. Salmonella is a leading cause of foodborne illnesses worldwide, resulting in substantial morbidity and mortality. It can cause a range of diseases, from gastroenteritis to more severe systemic infections like typhoid fever and invasive non-typhoidal salmonellosis. In veterinary medicine, Salmonella infections can lead to significant economic losses in livestock industries due to illness and death among animals, as well as through the contamination of animal products.

      The description has been added in the introduction section in line 47 to 53.

      (2) Results and Discussion:

      (1) While the combination of EDTA, artesunate, and colistin shows promising in vitro results against Salmonella, the clinical application of this combination warrants careful consideration due to potential toxicity issues associated with these compounds. Colistin is known for nephrotoxicity and neurotoxicity, limiting its use to severe cases where the benefits outweigh the risks. EDTA, as a chelating agent, can disrupt essential metal ions in the body, posing risks of metabolic imbalances. Although it has clinical applications, primarily in cases of heavy metal poisoning, its use as an adjuvant in antibiotics may present risks. Although generally well-tolerated for malaria, interactions of artesunate with other drugs and long-term safety in combined therapies require thorough investigation.

      The discussion of potential toxicity of triple combination has been added in line 318 to 337.

      (2) Table 1: The manuscript mentions that some strains used in the study are mcr-positive and mcr-negative. It is important to indicate in Table 1, in addition to the identification of Salmonella species, which strains are mcr-positive or mcr-negative.

      The relevant information has been added in Table 1.

      (3) Figure 2: What is the authors' hypothesis regarding the growth curves labeled "a" and "e" where strains JS and S16 resume growth 12 hours after treatment with AS? In the legend of Figure 2, describe what was used as the "positive control group."

      The growth curves labeled “a” and “e” were in Figure 1. After incubated with AC for 8 h, the survival CFUs of JS and S16 strains showed a slightly reduction, but there were still living cells. Since the bactericidal activity of AC is not strong enough to exert sustained bactericidal activity, these remaining living cells will resume growth after treatment with AC for 12 h. The “positive control group” in the legend of Figure 2 has been indicated in line 724.

      (4) What is the authors' hypothesis for the differences observed in the transcriptome and metabolome?

      The changes in gene transcription level may cause corresponding changes in protein level, but these proteins are not all involved in the bacterial metabolic process. For example, MCR protein  is encoded by the COL resistance related gene mcr, which mediates the modification of lipid A, but are not involved in the cellular metabolic process. Therefore, the transcriptome change of mcr gene may affect the protein production of MCR, nor the bacterial metabolic processes, so there are differences observed in the transcriptome and metabolome.

      (5) In some parts of the text, the authors state that artesunate and EDTA potentiate the action of colistin, which is a bacteriostatic drug. However, in other parts, the authors describe the effect of the AEC combination as bacteriostatic (Abstract: line 32; Results: line 179). How do the authors explain this inconsistency?

      The artesunate and EDTA could be regarded as “adjuvants” for the bacteriostatic drug colistin. Adjuvants itself act no or weak antibacterial effect on bacteria. For antimicrobial drugs, the “adjuvants” are compounds that generally used in combination with antibacterial drugs to re-sensitizing bacteria that have developed drug resistance. Thus, in this paper the AEC combination could be regared as bacteriostatic.

      (6) According to Brennan & Kirby (2019; doi: 10.1016/j.cll.2019.04.002), to evaluate the synergism between different drug combinations, bacterial growth curves need to be assessed over 24 hours. If the colony count is {greater than or equal to} 2 log10 lower than that of the most active antimicrobial alone, the combination is considered synergistic. Based on the growth curve results shown in Figure 1, the experiment was conducted for 12 hours, and in some cases, only a small reduction in growth was observed, even at the maximum concentration of colistin. Moreover, in some cases, the curve resumes rising between 8 and 12 hours. What is the authors' hypothesis in this case? It is important to conduct the assay over 24 hours to confirm the synergism between these drugs.

      The time-kill experiment of 24 hours have been re-executed and could be used to replace the Figure 1 in the original paper. Additionally, the phenomenon that “the curve resumes rising between 8 and 12 hours” has been explained in the response to comment of “Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors), Results and Discussion, (3) Figure 2”.

      (7) To prove that CheA and SpvD play a critical role in the effect of the AEC combination, deletion of these genes should be performed, and the mutant strains should be tested.

      The deletion of cheA and spvD will be carried out in our next study.

      (8) To demonstrate that the flagellum is no longer assembled, a transmission electron microscopy image using antibodies against flagellin should be performed, along with motility tests.

      The motility assays have been performed and displayed as Figure supplement 5 in the revised supplement materials.

      (9) Figure 7: In the X-axis legend, specify what "model" refers to.

      The “model” refers to the PBS control group that mice were treated with PBS after the intraperitoneal injection of 100 µL bacterial solution (1.31 × 10<sup>5</sup> CFU).

      (10) Figure 8 Legend: In the legend of Figure 8 (line 717), are the authors referring to E. coli or Salmonella?

      It referred to Salmonella, which has already been illustrated in the headline of Figure 8 in the revised manuscript.

      (3) Materials and Methods:

      (1) Bacterial Strains and Agents: It would be beneficial to include in the table the species of the strains used in the study, as well as the concentrations of colistin, artesunate, and EDTA utilized (lines 321 - 332).

      We have ever tried to add the above information to Table 1, but the addition of this information would make the table too large and beyond the margins, which is not conducive to the layout design of the table, so we chose to display these information in the materials and methods section instead of the table.

      (2) Antibacterial Activity In Vitro: Ensure clarity and well-defined ranges for the concentrations of colistin, EDTA, and artesunate used separately and in combinations (lines 335 - 344).

      The drug concentrations have been listed in line 369 to 371.

      (3) Time-Kill Assays: Clarify the criteria for selecting concentrations, whether based on MICs or peak and trough concentrations relevant to human and animal treatments with colistin (lines 345 - 351).

      Although in vitro studies have determined that with increasing dose of AS and EDTA, the antibacterial synergistic activity was gradually enhanced, and meanwhie, may also resulting in more toxic side effects. Thus, in our study, the 1/8 MICs of AS and EDTA were selected to ensure excellent antibacterial activity whereas minimize the potential toxicity. The instructions on the selection of drug concentration have been added in line 323 to 326.

      (4) General Corrections: Throughout the manuscript, correct typographical errors and consistently include the concentration values in mg/L alongside the MIC fractions. Specify the strains used for all experiments to ensure clarity. In the manuscript, the term "medication regimens" is used to describe the experimental setups involving different combinations of drugs tested in vitro. To improve accuracy and clarity, it is recommended to use the term "drug combination" instead. This term is more appropriate for in vitro experiments and will help avoid confusion with clinical treatment protocols.

      The typographical errors have been checked and corrected throughout the manuscript, and the “medication regimens” have been replaced by “drug combinations”.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Please see above for recommendations on what can be done to improve the manuscript.

      While other omics analyses have been conducted herein, the authors do not comment on the genomic analysis of their own strains. It would have been a natural step to sequence all the strains used in the experiments.

      Due to limited program funding, the genome sequencing and comparative analysis of these strains have not been analyzed. The antibacterial activities of different antimicrobial drugs against the S16 and S30 strains have been measured and listed in the Table supplement 9 within revised supplement materials.

      Some minor comments:

      (1) There are some spelling errors - e.g. "bacteria strains" instead of "bacterial strains".

      The grammar and spelling errors have been corrected throughout the manuscript.

      (2) I would avoid words like "unfortunately".

      The word “unfortunately” has been changed.

      (3) Some MIC-values in Table 1 seem incorrect - e.g. 24 mg/L. This is not a 2-log value - the value should be 32 mg/L if the dilution series has been carried out correctly.

      We are so sorry for the mistake. The data has been corrected, and we also checked other data.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Below are some suggestions.

      (1) Sentences L47 & L48 "Infections with antibiotic-resistant pathogens, especially carbapenemase-producing Enterobacteriaceae, represent an impending catastrophe of a return to the pre-antibiotic era" - this is slightly exaggerated! I also wonder if we need to use Enterobacterales instead of Enterobacteriaceae.

      The sentences in L47 & L48 have been changed. We googled the “carbapenemase-producing Enterobacteriaceae” and found it is a high-frequency word in numerous reports.

      (2) L48. The drying up of the antibiotic discovery pipeline is NOT necessarily the reason to use colistin as a drug of last resort!

      The sentence has been revised.

      (3) The manuscript requires extensive English editing but has merit based on the strong compilation of data.

      We have optimized and revised the writing of the whole article.

      (4) I suggest the authors have some data on the cytotoxicity of AS alone, colistin alone, and both of them against eucaryotic cells (Caco-) and if possible determine IS (index selectivity). This additional experiment will strengthen the quality of the manuscript. The authors must also explain how to put such tri-therapy into practice.

      The development of novel pharmaceutical dosage forms, pharmacokinetic, pharmacodynamic and safety analysis of the triple combination will be further conducted in our next study to provide a theoretical basis for the next clinical drug use. The discussion of potential toxicity of AS, colistin, EDTA and the triple combination have been added in line 318 to 337.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Bu et al examined the dynamics of TRPV4 channel in cell overcrowding in carcinoma conditions. They investigated how cell crowding (or high cell confluence) triggers a mechano-transduction pathway involving TRPV4 channels in high-grade ductal carcinoma in situ (DCIS) cells that leads to large cell volume reduction (or cell volume plasticity) and proinvasive phenotype.

      In vitro, this pathway is highly selective for highly malignant invasive cell lines derived from a normal breast epithelial cell line (MCF10CA) compared to the parent cell line, but not present in another triple-negative invasive breast epithelial cell line (MDA-MB-231). The authors convincingly showed that enhanced TRPV4 plasma membrane localization correlates with highgrade DCIS cells in patient tissue samples.

      Specifically in invasive MCF10DCIS.com cells, they showed that overcrowding or overconfluence leads to a decrease in cell volume and intracellular calcium levels. This condition also triggers the trafficking of TRPV4 channels from intracellular stores (nucleus and potentially endosomes), to the plasma membrane (PM). When these over-confluent cells are incubated with a TRPV4 activator, there is an acute and substantial influx of calcium, attesting to the fact that there are a high number of TRPV4 channels present on the PM. Long-term incubation of these over-confluent cells with the TRPV4 activator results in the internalization of the PMlocalized TRPV4 channels.

      In contrast, cells plated at lower confluence primarily have TRPV4 channels localized in the nucleus and cytosol. Long-term incubation of these cells at lower confluence with a TRPV4 inhibitor leads to the relocation of TRPV4 channels to the plasma membrane from intracellular stores and a subsequent reduction in cell volume. Similarly, incubation of these cells at low confluence with PEG 3000 (a hyperosmotic agent) promotes the trafficking of TRPV4 channels from intracellular stores to the plasma membrane.

      Strengths:

      The study is elegantly designed and the findings are novel. Their findings on this mechanotransduction pathway involving TRPV4 channels, calcium homeostasis, cell volume plasticity, motility, and invasiveness will have a great impact in the cancer field and are potentially applicable to other fields as well. Experiments are well-planned and executed, and the data is convincing. The authors investigated TRVP4 dynamics using multiple different strategies- overcrowding, hyperosmotic stress, and pharmacological means, and showed a good correlation between different phenomena.

      Weaknesses:

      A major emphasis in the study is on pharmacological means to relate TRPV4 channel function to the phenotype. I believe the use of genetic means would greatly enhance the impact and provide compelling proof for the involvement of TRPV4 channels in the associated phenotype.

      In this regard, I wonder if siRNA-mediated knockdown of TRPV4 in over-confluent cells (or knockout) would lead to an increase in cell volume and normalize the intracellular calcium levels back to normal, thus ultimately leading to a decrease in cell invasiveness.

      We greatly appreciate the positive feedback regarding the design of our study and the novelty of our findings. We also acknowledge the valuable suggestion to complement our pharmacological approaches with genetic manipulation of TRPV4.

      In response to the comment regarding siRNA-mediated knockdown or knockout of TRPV4, we fully agree that this would further substantiate our findings. In the revised manuscript, we implemented shRNA targeting TRPV4 to investigate its functional effects on intracellular calcium level changes, cell volume plasticity, and invasiveness phenotypes, assessed through singlecell motility assays under cell crowding or hyperosmotic stress. These results have been incorporated into the revised manuscript, and detailed descriptions of these findings are included below.

      Using the shRNA approach that resulted in ~50% reduction of TRPV4 expression

      (Supplementary Figure 6A and 6B show TRPV4 expression levels via IF and immunoblots, respectively), we examined the effect of reduced TRPV4 on intracellular calcium levels in MCF10DCIS.com cells under normal density (ND) and stress conditions (confluent; Con and hyperosmotic; PEG) using Fluo-4 AM imaging (Fig. 4S-X). We found that shRNA TRPV4 slightly decreased calcium levels in ND cells, likely due to fewer active calcium channels at the plasma membrane resulting from lower TRPV4 expression (as shown in the summary plot in Fig. 4W). With fewer active calcium channels, cells treated with shRNA TRPV4 exhibited less reduction in intracellular calcium levels under cell crowding conditions compared to control cells. Additionally, hyperosmotic stress using PEG 300 induced smaller calcium spikes in shRNA cells compared to the significant spike observed in control cells. This reduced calcium response to Con and hyperosmotic stress in shRNA cells was reflected in the decreased cell volume reduction by PEG 300 shown in Fig. 4Y. Consequently, shRNA-mediated TRPV4 reduction impaired cell volume plasticity in MCF10DCIS.com cells and abolished the pro-invasive mechanotransduction capability involving cell volume reduction, as evidenced by no increase in cell motility (both cell diffusivity and directionality) under hyperosmotic conditions (Fig. 5H-J). These findings demonstrate the critical role of TRPV4 in conferring pro-invasive

      mechanotransduction capability to MCF10DCIS.com cells through cell volume reduction.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The metastasis poses a significant challenge in cancer treatment. During the transition from non-invasive cells to invasive metastasis cells, cancer cells usually experience mechanical stress due to a crowded cellular environment. The molecular mechanisms underlying mechanical signaling during this transition remain largely elusive. In this work, the authors utilize an in vitro cell culture system and advanced imaging techniques to investigate how non-invasive and invasive cells respond to cell crowding, respectively.

      Strengths:

      The results clearly show that pre-malignant cells exhibit a more pronounced reduction in cell volume and are more prone to spreading compared to non-invasive cells. Furthermore, the study identifies that TRPV4, a calcium channel, relocates to the plasma membrane both in vitro and in vivo (patient samples). Activation and inhibition of the TRPV4 channel can modulate the cell volume and cell mobility. These results unveil a novel mechanism of mechanical sensing in cancer cells, potentially offering new avenues for therapeutic intervention targeting cancer metastasis by modulating TRPV4 activity. This is a very comprehensive study, and the data presented in the paper are clear and convincing. The study represents a very important advance in our understanding of the mechanical biology of cancer.

      Weaknesses:

      However, I do think that there are several additional experiments that could strengthen the conclusions of this work. A critical limitation is the absence of genetic ablation of the TRPV4 gene to confirm its essential role in the response to cell crowding.

      We are deeply grateful for the positive assessment of our study and its contribution to advancing our understanding of mechanical signaling in cancer progression. We also greatly appreciate the suggestion to incorporate genetic ablation experiments to further validate the role of TRPV4 in cell crowding responses.

      As noted in our response to Reviewer #1, we employed an shRNA approach to investigate the functional effects of TRPV4 knockdown on intracellular calcium level changes, cell volume plasticity, and invasiveness phenotypes. We assessed these effects using Fluo-4 AM calcium assay, single-cell volume measurements, and single-cell motility assays under cell crowding or hyperosmotic stress. These results have been incorporated into the revised manuscript and are described in detail in our response to Reviewer #1's "weaknesses" comment.

      Reducing TRPV4 expression levels by shRNA diminished mechanosensing intracellular calcium changes under cell crowding and hyperosmotic conditions using PEG 300 treatment. Furthermore, a significantly reduced cell volume plasticity was observed under hyperosmotic conditions in shRNA treated cells compared to control cells (Fig. 4S-X). This diminished mechanosensing capability abolished the pro-invasive mechanotransduction effect, as assessed by single cell motility under hyperosmotic conditions (Fig. 5H-J). These findings demonstrate the critical role of TRPV4 in conferring pro-invasive mechanotransduction capability to MCF10DCIS.com cells through cell volume reduction.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The way the results or discussion section is written. It was a little confusing for me to relate to some phenomena. For example, it is not clear how TRPV4 inhibition (due to overcrowding) leads to a decrease in intercellular calcium levels, especially when TRPV4 channels were intercellular (not on the PM) to begin with (in normal density (ND) conditions). Along the same lines, how GSK219 causes a dip in calcium levels in ND cells when TRPV4 channels are primarily intercellular (Figure 4E). If most of the TRPV4 channels that are translocated to the PM in response to cell crowding are in an inactive state, how do they confer enhanced cell volume plasticity relative to non-invasive cell lines?

      Thank you very much for raising this important point. We fully agree with your concern and have significantly revised the manuscript to clarify this aspect. Specifically, we have emphasized that a modest level of TRPV4 channels are constitutively active at the plasma membrane in normal density (ND) cells. This is now discussed in detail in the context of Fig. 4:

      Page 14: “Considering these factors, we hypothesized that cell crowding might inhibit calcium-permeant ion channels that are constitutively active at the plasma membrane, including TRPV4, which would then lower intracellular calcium levels and subsequently reduce cell volume via osmotic water movement.”

      Page 16-17: “… However, the temporal profile of Fluo-4 intensity in Fig. 4E, which corresponds to the time points marked in Fig. 4D (t<sub>1</sub>: baseline and t<sub>2</sub>: dip), clearly shows the dip at t<sub>2</sub>, indicated by ΔCa (the vertical dashed line between the dip and baseline). This modest Fluo-4 dip at t<sub>2</sub> represents the inhibition of activity by GSK219 on a small population of constitutively active TRPV4 channels at the plasma membrane under ND conditions.

      In Con cells, 1 nM GSK219 caused a smaller dip in Fluo-4 intensity compared to the one observed in ND cells, with no subsequent changes. This is likely due to fewer constitutively active TRPV4 at the plasma membrane in Con cells than in ND cells. …These findings suggest that a substantial portion of TRPV4 channels relocated to the plasma membrane under cell crowding was inactive, and some constitutively active TRPV4 channels already present in the membrane became inactive as a result of cell crowding.”

      'Internalization' might be a better word than 'uptake' in the following line in the results section

      "...activating TRPV4 under cell crowding conditions triggered channel uptake, indicating that TRPV4 trafficking depended on the channel's activation status."

      Thank you very much for this suggestion. As recommended, we replaced ‘uptake’ with internalization’ on page 18: 

      “However, in Con cells, where a large number of inactive TRPV4 channels are likely located at the plasma membrane, GSK101 treatment notably reduced plasma membrane-associated TRPV4 in a dose-dependent manner through internalization (Fig. 4O, 4Q), consistent with previous findings65. These data suggest that plasma membrane TRPV4 levels were largely

      regulated by the channel activity status. Specifically, channel activation led to the internalization of TRPV4, while channel inhibition promoted the relocation of TRPV4 to the plasma membrane.”

      1. Out of curiosity:

      2. Is there any information on what the intercellular TRPV4 channels are doing in the cytosol and in the nucleus? Is there any role of intercellular calcium stores in the proposed pathway?

      We greatly appreciate this insightful question. Although we were unable to find studies specifically exploring the roles of cytosolic TRPV4, a recent study (Reference 74) identified a role for nuclear TRPV4 in regulating calcium within the nucleus. We speculate that when TRPV4 activity is severely impaired, such as with additional TRPV4 inhibition under cell crowding conditions, some TRPV4 channels may be redirected to the nucleus. This redistribution could help maintain nuclear calcium homeostasis.

      This discussion is included on page 18 of the manuscript:

      “These findings suggest that further TRPV4 inhibition under crowding conditions triggers a distinct trafficking alteration. Recent studies have implicated nuclear TRPV4 in regulating nuclear Ca2+ homeostasis and Ca2+-regulated transcription74. In light of this study and our findings, TRPV4 may relocate to the nucleus as a compensatory mechanism to maintain nuclear calcium regulation. This relocation could reflect an adaptive response to preserve calcium-dependent transcriptional programs or other nuclear processes essential for cell survival under mechanical stress.”

      One recommendation is to add some explanation or some minor details for the convenience of the reader. For example:

      At normal or lower confluence, cells show an acute large dip in intercellular calcium when an inhibitor is applied implying that there are a few TRPV4 channels on the PM and they are constitutively active.

      Thank you very much for highlighting this important point and for the helpful suggestion to improve clarity. We have significantly revised the text associated with Fig. 4 to ensure this point is clear. Specifically, we have added the following explanation on page 16:

      "This modest Fluo-4 dip at t2 represents the inhibition of activity by GSK219 on a small population of constitutively active TRPV4 channels at the plasma membrane under ND conditions."

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Figure 1. The authors frequently change the medium to prevent acidification in overconfluent cultures. A cell viability assay should be performed to ensure that the over-confluent cells remain healthy and viable during the experiments. There are commercial kits that can be easily used to quantify the number of viable cells and the extent of cell toxicity. The number of viable cells would provide a more reliable basis for comparison between normal density and overconfluent conditions.

      Thank you very much for raising this important point. We have consistently observed that cell crowding does not induce significant cell death in MCF10DCIS.com cells. To address your recommendation, we performed a viability assay using propidium iodide (PI) to selectively stain dead cells and WGA-488 to stain all live cells. Cell death was quantified under normal density (ND) conditions and at 1, 3, 5, 7, and 10 days post-confluence.

      Our results indicate that cells remain similarly viable post-confluence, with minimal cell death

      (~1.5%) compared to ND cells (~0.75%). These findings are summarized in Supplementary Figure 2, demonstrating that over-confluent cultures remain healthy and viable during the experiments.

      (2) Figure 2. To determine whether the reduction in cell volume is reversible, over-confluent cells can be further diluted back to normal density. Additionally, the reversibility of TRPV4 channel trafficking to the plasma membrane should be assessed under these conditions in IF experiments and cell surface biotinylation.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We reseeded the previously overcrowded (OC) cells at normal density and observed that their TRPV4 distribution predominantly returned to being intracellular, with only modest plasma membrane localization, as shown by line analysis (Supplementary Figure 10A-C, page 13). Furthermore, their invasiveness decreased to levels comparable to the original normal density (ND) cells (Supplementary Figure 3C and 3E, page 6). These results demonstrate the reversibility of TRPV4 trafficking changes and the increase in invasiveness under mechanical stress.

      Page 6. "The enhanced invasiveness of MCF10DCIS.com cells under cell crowding was largely reversible. When OC cells were reseeded at normal density for invasion assays, their invasive cell fraction decreased to approximately 15%, slightly lower (p = 0.012) than the initial value of around 24% (Suppl. Fig. 3C, 3E)."

      Page 13. “We investigated whether TRPV4 relocation to the plasma membrane induced by cell crowding is reversible, as suggested by its impact on invasiveness (Suppl. Fig. 3E). To test this, previously OC MCF10DCIS.com cells were reseeded under ND conditions. We then assessed TRPV4 localization via immunofluorescence (IF) imaging to determine if most channels returned to the cytoplasm and could be relocated to the plasma membrane under mechanical stress, such as hyperosmotic conditions. Consistent with their initial ND state, reseeded ND MCF10DCIS.com cells displayed intracellular TRPV4 distribution (Suppl. Fig. 10A). Upon exposure to hyperosmotic stress (74.4 mOsm/Kg PEG300), TRPV4 was again relocated to the plasma membrane (Suppl. Fig. 10B). These findings, quantified through line analysis (Suppl. Fig. 10C), demonstrate that the mechanosensing response of MCF10DCIS.com cells is reversible.”

      (3) Figure 3B. A control using intracellular proteins such as GAPDH or Tubulin is missing. Including this control would help exclude the possibility of cell rupture or compromised cell membranes in crowded environments, which is very common in a cell crowding environment.

      Thank you very much for pointing this out. The control lanes (GAPDH) were already included in the full gel results shown in Supplementary Figure 5. For the immunoprecipitation and immunoblotting of surface-biotinylated cell lysates, we did not expect to detect GAPDH; however, some GAPDH signals were still observed. As shown for MCF10DCIS.com cells, less GAPDH was detected under OC conditions, but the immunoprecipitated samples displayed significantly higher levels of TRPV4 on the cell surface compared to ND cells (Supplementary Figure 5A). For the whole cell lysates, TRPV4 protein levels were comparable across different cell lines based on the immunoblot results, with consistent GAPDH signals serving as a loading control (Supplementary Figure 5B).

      (4) Figure 4. To convincingly demonstrate TRPV4 relocation to the plasma membrane, IF should be performed under non-permeable conditions (i.e., without detergents like saponin). This approach ensures that only plasma membrane proteins are accessible to antibodies, reducing intracellular background. The same approach should be applied to Piezo1 and TfR.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We observed that under non-permeable conditions, primary antibodies could still access intracellular proteins. To address this issue, we employed extracellular-binding TRPV4 antibodies to selectively detect TRPV4 relocation to the plasma membrane under hyperosmotic conditions (74.4 mOsm/kg PEG 300) in live MCF10DCIS.com cells, as shown in Supplementary Figure 9. These results clearly demonstrate the plasma membrane relocation of TRPV4 under hyperosmotic conditions, distinguishing it from control conditions. Unfortunately, we were unable to identify high-affinity extracellular-binding antibodies for Piezo1 and TfR. Nevertheless, our findings strongly support the mechanosensing plasma membrane relocation of TRPV4.

      Essential Weakness:

      Throughout the study, only TRPV4 inhibitors and activators were used to show that TRPV4 relocation is associated with intracellular calcium concentration and cell size changes. It is crucial to use TRPV4 KO or KD cells to confirm that the observed effects are specific to TRPV4 and not due to off-target effects on other proteins. Additionally, fusing a plasma membrane targeting sequence to TRPV4 to make a constitutive plasma membrane-localized construct could demonstrate the opposite effect.

      Thank you very much for this important comment. As noted in our response to Reviewer #1, we employed an shRNA approach to investigate the functional effects of TRPV4 knockdown on intracellular calcium level changes, cell volume plasticity, and invasiveness phenotypes. We assessed these effects using Fluo-4 AM calcium assay, single-cell volume measurements, and single-cell motility assays under cell crowding or hyperosmotic stress. These results have been incorporated into the revised manuscript and are described in detail in our response to Reviewer #1's "weaknesses" comment.

      Reducing TRPV4 expression levels by shRNA diminished mechanosensing intracellular calcium changes under cell crowding and hyperosmotic conditions using PEG 300 treatment. Furthermore, a significantly reduced cell volume plasticity was observed under hyperosmotic conditions in shRNA treated cells compared to control cells (Fig. 4S-X). This diminished mechanosensing capability abolished the pro-invasive mechanotransduction effect, as assessed by single cell motility under hyperosmotic conditions (Fig. 5H-J). These findings demonstrate the critical role of TRPV4 in conferring pro-invasive mechanotransduction capability to MCF10DCIS.com cells through cell volume reduction.

      Minor Points:

      The introduction section is poorly written; many results currently included in the introduction would be more appropriately placed in the discussion section. The long redundant introduction makes the article hard to read through.

      Thank you very much for pointing this out. In the revised introduction, we have significantly reduced references to the results, streamlining the section to make it more concise and focused. This adjustment ensures the introduction is clearer and avoids redundancy, improving the readability of the manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      "Neural noise", here operationalized as an imbalance between excitatory and inhibitory neural activity, has been posited as a core cause of developmental dyslexia, a prevalent learning disability that impacts reading accuracy and fluency. This is study is the first to systematically evaluate the neural noise hypothesis of dyslexia. Neural noise was measured using neurophysiological (electroencephalography [EEG]) and neurochemical (magnetic resonance spectroscopy [MRS]) in adolescents and young adults with and without dyslexia. The authors did not find evidence of elevated neural noise in the dyslexia group from EEG or MRS measures, and Bayes factors generally informed against including the grouping factor in the models. Although the comparisons between groups with and without dyslexia did not support the neural noise hypothesis, a mediation model that quantified phonological processing and reading abilities continuously revealed that EEG beta power in the left superior temporal sulcus was positively associated with reading ability via phonological awareness. This finding lends support for analysis of associations between neural excitatory/inhibitory factors and reading ability along a continuum, rather than as with a case/control approach, and indicates the relevance of phonological awareness as an intermediate trait that may provide a more proximal link between neurobiology and reading ability. Further research is needed across developmental stages and over a broader set of brain regions to more comprehensively assess the neural noise hypothesis of dyslexia, and alternative neurobiological mechanisms of this disorder should be explored.

      Strengths:

      The inclusion of multiple methods of assessing neural noise (neurophysiological and neurochemical) is a major advantage of this paper. MRS at 7T confers an advantage of more accurately distinguishing and quantifying glutamate, which is a primary target of this study. In addition, the subject-specific functional localization of the MRS acquisition is an innovative approach. MRS acquisition and processing details are noted in the supplementary materials using according to the experts' consensus recommended checklist (https://doi.org/10.1002/nbm.4484). Commenting on rigor the EEG methods is beyond my expertise as a reviewer.

      Participants recruited for this study included those with a clinical diagnosis of dyslexia, which strengthens confidence in the accuracy of the diagnosis. The assessment of reading and language abilities during the study further confirms the persistently poorer performance of the dyslexia group compared to the control group.

      The correlational analysis and mediation analysis provide complementary information to the main case-control analyses, and the examination of associations between EEG and MRS measures of neural noise is novel and interesting.

      The authors follow good practice for open science, including data and code sharing. They also apply statistical rigor, using Bayes Factors to support conclusions of null evidence rather than relying only on non-significant findings. In the discussion, they acknowledge the limitations and generalizability of the evidence and provide directions for future research on this topic.

      Weaknesses:

      Though the methods employed in the paper are generally strong, the MRS acquisition was not optimized to quantify GABA, so the findings (or lack thereof) should be interpreted with caution. Specifically, while 7T MRS affords the benefit of quantifying metabolites, such as GABA, without spectral editing, this quantification is best achieved with echo times (TE) of 68 or 80 ms in order to minimize the spectral overlap between glutamate and GABA and reduce contamination from the macromolecular signal (Finkelman et al., 2022, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2021.118810). The data in the present study were acquired at TE=28 ms, and are therefore likely affected by overlapping Glu and GABA peaks at 2.3 ppm that are much more difficult to resolve at this short TE, which could directly affect the measures that are meant to characterize the Glu/GABA+ ratio/imbalance. In future research, MRS acquisition schemes should be optimized for the acquisition of Glutamate, GABA, and their relative balance.

      As the authors note in the discussion, additional factors such as MRS voxel location, participant age, and participant sex could influence associations between neural noise and reading abilities and should be considered in future studies.

      We have modified Figure 2 and revised the paragraph discussing the MRS methodological limitations in accordance with Reviewer #1's recommendations. Additionally, we have included the CRLB and linewidth thresholds in the Results section. Furthermore, a new figure showing the correlations between EEG and MRS biomarkers has been added (Figure 3).

      Appraisal:

      The authors present a thorough evaluation of the neural noise hypothesis of developmental dyslexia in a sample of adolescents and young adults using multiple methods of measuring excitatory/inhibitory imbalances as an indicator of neural noise. The authors concluded that there was not support for the neural noise hypothesis of dyslexia in their study based on null significance and Bayes factors. This conclusion is justified, and further research is called for to more broadly evaluate the neural noise hypothesis in developmental dyslexia.

      Impact:

      This study provides an exemplar foundation for the evaluation of the neural noise hypothesis of dyslexia. Other researcher may adopt the model applied in this paper to examine neural noise in various populations with/without dyslexia, or across a continuum of reading abilities, to more thoroughly examine evidence (or lack thereof) for this hypothesis. Notably, the lack of evidence here does not rule out the possibility for a role of neural noise in dyslexia, and the authors point out that presentation with co-occurring conditions, such as ADHD, may contribute to neural noise in dyslexia. Dyslexia remains a multi-faceted and heterogenous neurodevelopmental condition, and many genetic, neurobiological and environmental factors play a role. This study demonstrates one step toward evaluating neurobiological mechanisms that may contribute to reading difficulties.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study utilized two complimentary techniques (EEG and 7T MRI/MRS) to directly test a theory of dyslexia: the neural noise hypothesis. The authors report finding no evidence to support an excitatory/inhibitory balance, as quantified by beta in EEG and Glutamate/GABA ratio in MRS. This is important work and speaks to one potential mechanism by which increased neural noise may occur in dyslexia.

      Strengths:

      This is a well conceived study with in depth analyses and publicly available data for independent review. The authors provide transparency with their statistics and display the raw data points along with the averages in figures for review and interpretation. The data suggest that an E/I balance issue may not underlie deficits in dyslexia and is a meaningful and needed test of a possible mechanism for increased neural noise.

      Weaknesses:

      The researchers did not include a visual print task in the EEG task, which limits analysis of reading specific regions such as the visual word form area, which is a commonly hypoactivated region in dyslexia. This region is a common one of interest in dyslexia, yet the researchers measured the I/E balance in only one region of interest, specific to the language network.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study by Glica and colleagues utilized EEG (i.e., Beta power, Gamma power, and aperiodic activity) and 7T MRS (i.e., MRS IE ratio, IE balance) to reevaluating the neural noise hypothesis in Dyslexia. Supported by Bayesian statistics, their results show convincing evidence of no differences in EI balance between groups, challenging the neural noise hypothesis.

      Strengths:

      Combining EEG and 7T MRS, this study utilized both the indirect (i.e., Beta power, Gamma power, and aperiodic activity) and direct (i.e., MRS IE ratio, IE balance) measures to reevaluating the neural noise hypothesis in Dyslexia.

    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      When you search for something, you need to maintain some representation (a "template") of that target in your mind/brain. Otherwise, how would you know what you were looking for? If your phone is in a shocking pink case, you can guide your attention to pink things based on a target template that includes the attribute 'pink'. That guidance should get you to the phone pretty effectively if it is in view. Most real-world searches are more complicated. If you are looking for the toaster, you will make use of your knowledge of where toasters can be. Thus, if you are asked to find a toaster, you might first activate a template of a kitchen or a kitchen counter. You might worry about pulling up the toaster template only after you are reasonably sure you have restricted your attention to a sensible part of the scene.

      Zhou and Geng are looking for evidence of this early stage of guidance by information about the surrounding scene in a search task. They train Os to associate four faces with four places. Then, with Os in the scanner, they show one face - the target for a subsequent search. After an 8 sec delay, they show a search display where the face is placed on the associated scene 75% of the time. Thus, attending to the associated scene is a good idea. The questions of interest are "When can the experimenters decode which face Os saw from fMRI recording?" "When can the experimenters decode the associated scene?" and "Where in the brain can the experimenters see evidence of this decoding? The answer is that the face but not the scene can be read out during the face's initial presentation. The key finding is that the scene can be read out (imperfectly but above chance) during the subsequent delay when Os are looking at just a fixation point. Apparently, seeing the face conjures up the scene in the mind's eye.

      This is a solid and believable result. The only issue, for me, is whether it is telling us anything specifically about search. Suppose you trained Os on the face-scene pairing but never did anything connected to the search. If you presented the face, would you not see evidence of recall of the associated scene? Maybe you would see the activation of the scene in different areas and you could identify some areas as search specific. I don't think anything like that was discussed here.

      You might also expect this result to be asymmetric. The idea is that the big scene gives the search information about the little face. The face should activate the larger useful scene more than the scene should activate the more incidental face, if the task was reversed. That might be true if the finding is related to a search where the scene context is presumed to be the useful attention guiding stimulus. You might not expect an asymmetry if Os were just learning an association.

      It is clear in this study that the face and the scene have been associated and that this can be seen in the fMRI data. It is also clear that a valid scene background speeds the behavioral response in the search task. The linkage between these two results is not entirely clear but perhaps future research will shed more light.

      It is also possible that I missed the clear evidence of the search-specific nature of the activation by the scene during the delay period. If so, I apologize and suggest that the point be underlined for readers like me.

      We will respond to this question by acknowledging that the reviewer is right in that the delay period activation of the scene is not necessarily search-specific. We will then discuss how this possibility affects the interpretation of our results and what kind of studies would need to be conducted in order to fully establish a causal link between delay period activity and visual search performance. We will also discuss the literature on cued attention and situate our work within the context of these other studies that have used similar task paradigms to infer attentional processes. Finally, we will discuss the interpretation of delay period activity in PPA and IFJ.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work is one of the best instances of a well-controlled experiment and theoretically impactful findings within the literature on templates guiding attentional selection. I am a fan of the work that comes out of this lab and this particular manuscript is an excellent example as to why that is the case. Here, the authors use fMRI (employing MVPA) to test whether during the preparatory search period, a search template is invoked within the corresponding sensory regions, in the absence of physical stimulation. By associating faces with scenes, a strong association was created between two types of stimuli that recruit very specific neural processing regions - FFA for faces and PPA for scenes. The critical results showed that scene information that was associated with a particular cue could be decoded from PPA during the delay period. This result strongly supports the invoking of a very specific attentional template.

      Strengths:

      There is so much to be impressed with in this report. The writing of the manuscript is incredibly clear. The experimental design is clever and innovative. The analysis is sophisticated and also innovative. The results are solid and convincing.

      Weaknesses:

      I only have a few weaknesses to point out.

      This point is not so much of a weakness, but a further test of the hypothesis put forward by the authors. The delay period was long - 8 seconds. It would be interesting to split the delay period into the first 4seconds and the last 4seconds and run the same decoding analyses. The hypothesis here is that semantic associations take time to evolve, and it would be great to show that decoding gets stronger in the second delay period as opposed to the period right after the cue. I don't think this is necessary for publication, but I think it would be a stronger test of the template hypothesis.

      We will conduct the suggested analysis. Depending on the outcome, we will include it in supplemental materials or the main text.

      Type in the abstract "curing" vs "during."

      We will fix this.

      It is hard to know what to do with significant results in ROIs that are not motivated by specific hypotheses. However, for Figure 3, what are the explanations for ROIs that show significant differences above and beyond the direct hypotheses set out by the authors?

      We will address how each of the ROIs wdas selected based on the use of a priori networks as masks with ROIs as sub-parcels. We will explain why specific ROIs were associated with the strongest hypotheses but how the entire networks are relevant and related to existing literatures on attentional control and working memory. This content will be included in the introduction and discussion sections.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      The manuscript contains a carefully designed fMRI study, using MVPA pattern analysis to investigate which high-level associate cortices contain target-related information to guide visual search. A special focus is hereby on so-called 'target-associated' information, that has previously been shown to help in guiding attention during visual search. For this purpose the author trained their participants and made them learn specific target-associations, in order to then test which brain regions may contain neural representations of those learnt associations. They found that at least some of the associations tested were encoded in prefrontal cortex during the cue and delay period.

      The manuscript is very carefully prepared. As far as I can see, the statistical analyses are all sound and the results integrate well with previous findings.

      I have no strong objections against the presented results and their interpretation.

      Thank you.

    1. Author response:

      eLife Assessment

      This study addresses a novel and interesting question about how the rise of the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau influenced patterns of bird migration, employing a multi-faceted approach that combines species distribution data with environmental modeling. The findings are valuable for understanding avian migration within a subfield, but the strength of evidence is incomplete due to critical methodological assumptions about historical species-environment correlations, limited tracking data, and insufficient clarity in species selection criteria. Addressing these weaknesses would significantly enhance the reliability and interpretability of the results.

      We would like to thank you and two anonymous reviewers for your careful, thoughtful, and constructive feedback on our manuscript. These reviews made us revisit a lot of our assumptions and we believe the paper will be much improved as a result. In addition to minor points, we will make three main changes to our manuscript in response to the reviews. First, we will address the concerns on the assumptions of historical species-environment correlations from perspectives of both theoretical and empirical evidence. Second, we will discuss the benefits and limitations of using tracking data in our study and demonstrate how the findings of our study are consolidated with results of previous studies. Third, we will clarify our criteria for selecting species in terms of both eBird and tracking data.

      Below, we respond to each comment in turn. Once again, we thank you all for your feedback.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Strengths:

      This is an interesting topic and a novel theme. The visualisations and presentation are to a very high standard. The Introduction is very well-written and introduces the main concepts well, with a clear logical structure and good use of the literature. The methods are detailed and well described and written in such a fashion that they are transparent and repeatable.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s careful reading of our manuscript, encouraging comments and constructive suggestions.

      Weaknesses:

      I only have one major issue, which is possibly a product of the structure requirements of the paper/journal. This relates to the Results and Discussion, line 91 onwards. I understand the structure of the paper necessitates delving immediately into the results, but it is quite hard to follow due to a lack of background information. In comparison to the Methods, which are incredibly detailed, the Results in the main section reads as quite superficial. They provide broad overviews of broad findings but I found it very hard to actually get a picture of the main results in its current form. For example, how the different species factor in, etc.

      Yes, it is the journal request to format in this way (Methods follows the Results and Discussion) for the article type of short reports. As suggested, in the revision we will elaborate on details of our findings, especially the species-specific responses, in terms of (i) shifts of distribution of avian breeding and wintering areas under the influence of the uplift of the Qinghai-Tibetan Plateau, and (ii) major factors that shape current migration patterns of birds in the Plateau. We will also better reference the approaches we used in the study.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The study tries to assess how the rise of the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau affected patterns of bird migration between their breeding and wintering sites. They do so by correlating the present distribution of the species with a set of environmental variables. The data on species distributions come from eBird. The main issue lies in the problematic assumption that species correlations between their current distribution and environment were about the same before the rise of the Plateau. There is no ground truthing and the study relies on Movebank data of only 7 species which are not even listed in the study. Similarly, the study does not outline the boundaries of breeding sites NE of the Plateau. Thus it is absolutely unclear potentially which breeding populations it covers.

      We are very grateful for the careful review and helpful suggestions. We will revise the manuscript carefully in response to the reviewer’s comments and believe that it will be much improved as a result. Below are our point-by-point replies to the comments.

      Strengths:

      I like the approach for how you combined various environmental datasets for the modelling part.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s encouragement.

      Weaknesses:

      The major weakness of the study lies in the assumption that species correlations between their current distribution and environments found today are back-projected to the far past before the rise of the Q-T Plateau. This would mean that species responses to the environmental cues do not evolve which is clearly not true. Thus, your study is a very nice intellectual exercise of too many ifs.

      This is a valid concern. We will address this from both the perspectives of the theoretical design of our study and empirical evidence.

      First, we agree with the reviewer that species responses to environmental cues might vary over time. Nonetheless, the simulated environments before the uplift of the plateau serve as a counterfactual state in our study. Counterfactual is an important concept to support causation claims by comparing what happened to what would have happened in a hypothetical situation: “If event X had not occurred, event Y would not have occurred” (Lewis 1973). Recent years have seen an increasing application of the counterfactual approach to detect biodiversity change, i.e., comparing diversity between the counterfactual state and real estimates to attribute the factors causing such changes (e.g., Gonzalez et al. 2023). Whilst we do not aim to provide causal inferences for avian distributional change, using the counterfactual approach, we are able to estimate the influence of the plateau uplift by detecting the changes of avian distributions, i.e., by comparing where the birds would have distributed without the plateau to where they currently distributed. We regard the counterfactual environments as a powerful tool for eliminating, to the extent possible, vagueness, as opposed to simply description of current distributions of birds. Therefore, we assume species’ responses to environments are conservative and their evolution should not discount our findings. We will clarify this in both the Introduction and Methods.

      Second, we used species distribution modelling to contrast the distributions of birds before and after the uplift of the plateau under the assumption that species tend to keep their ancestral ecological traits over time (i.e., niche conservatism). This indicates a high probability for species to distribute in similar environments wherever suitable. Particularly, considering birds are more likely to be influenced by food resources (Martins et al. 2024), and the distribution of available food before the uplift (Jia et al. 2020), we believe the findings can provide valuable insights into the influence of the plateau on avian migratory patterns. Having said that, we acknowledge other factors, e.g., carbon dioxide concentrations (Zhang et al. 2022), can influence the simulations of environments and our prediction of avian distribution. We will clarify the assumptions and evidence we have for the modelling in Methods. We will further point out the direction for future studies in the Discussion.

      The second major drawback lies in the way you estimate the migratory routes of particular birds. No matter how good the data eBird provides is, you do not know population-specific connections between wintering and breeding sites. Some might overwinter in India, some populations in Africa and you will never know the teleconnections between breeding and wintering sites of particular species. The few available tracking studies (seven!) are too coarse and with limited aspects of migratory connectivity to give answer on the target questions of your study.

      We agree with the reviewer that establishing interconnections for birds is important for estimating the migration patterns of birds. We employed a dynamic model to assess their weekly distributions. Thus, we can track the movement of species every week, and capture the breeding and wintering areas for specific populations. That being said, we acknowledge that our approach can be subjected to the patchy sampling of eBird data. We will better demonstrate this in the main text.  

      Tracking data can provide valuable insights into the movement patterns of species but are limited to small numbers of species due to the considerable costs and time needed. We aimed to adopt the tracking data to examine the influence of focal factors on avian migration patterns, but only seven species, to the best of our ability, were acquired. Moreover, similar results were found in studies that used tracking data to estimate the distribution of breeding and wintering areas of birds in the plateau (e.g., Prosser et al. 2011, Zhang et al. 2011, Zhang et al. 2014, Liu et al. 2018, Kumar et al. 2020, Wang et al. 2020, Pu and Guo 2023, Yu et al. 2024, Zhao et al. 2024). We believe the conclusions based on seven species are rigour, but their implications could be restricted by the number of tracking species we obtained. We will demonstrate how our findings on breeding and wintering areas of birds are reinforced by other studies reporting the locations of those areas. We will also add a separate caveat section to discuss the limitations stated above.

      Your set of species is unclear, selection criteria for the 50 species are unknown and variability in their migratory strategies is likely to affect the direction of the effects.

      We will clarify the selection criteria for the 50 species). We first obtained a full list of birds in the plateau from Prins and Namgail (2017). We then extracted species identified as full migrants in Birdlife International (https://datazone.birdlife.org/species/spcdistPOS) from the full list.

      In addition, the position of the breeding sites relative to the Q-T plate will affect the azimuths and resulting migratory flyways. So in fact, we have no idea what your estimates mean in Figure 2.

      We calculated the azimuths not only by the angles between breeding sites and wintering sites but also based on the angles between the stopovers of birds. Therefore, the azimuths are influenced by the relative positions of breeding, wintering and stopover sites. We will better explain this both in the Methods and legend of Figure 2.

      There is no way one can assess the performance of your statistical exercises, e.g. performances of the models.

      As suggested, we will add the AUC values to assess the performances of the models.

      References

      Gonzalez, A., J. M. Chase, and M. I. O'Connor. 2023. A framework for the detection and attribution of biodiversity change. Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences 378: 20220182.

      Jia, Y., H. Wu, S. Zhu, Q. Li, C. Zhang, Y. Yu, and A. Sun. 2020. Cenozoic aridification in Northwest China evidenced by paleovegetation evolution. Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology 557:109907.

      Kumar, N., U. Gupta, Y. V. Jhala, Q. Qureshi, A. G. Gosler, and F. Sergio. 2020. GPS-telemetry unveils the regular high-elevation crossing of the Himalayas by a migratory raptor: implications for definition of a “Central Asian Flyway”. Scientific Reports 10:15988.

      Lewis, D. 1973. Counterfactuals. Oxford: Blackwell.

      Liu, D., G. Zhang, H. Jiang, and J. Lu. 2018. Detours in long-distance migration across the Qinghai-Tibetan Plateau: individual consistency and habitat associations. PeerJ 6:e4304.

      Martins, L. P., D. B. Stouffer, P. G. Blendinger, K. Böhning-Gaese, J. M. Costa, D. M. Dehling, C. I. Donatti, C. Emer, M. Galetti, R. Heleno, Í. Menezes, J. C. Morante-Filho, M. C. Muñoz, E. L. Neuschulz, M. A. Pizo, M. Quitián, R. A. Ruggera, F. Saavedra, V. Santillán, M. Schleuning, L. P. da Silva, F. Ribeiro da Silva, J. A. Tobias, A. Traveset, M. G. R. Vollstädt, and J. M. Tylianakis. 2024. Birds optimize fruit size consumed near their geographic range limits. Science 385:331-336.

      Prins, H. H. T., and T. Namgail. 2017. Bird migration across the Himalayas : wetland functioning amidst mountains and glaciers. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge.

      Prosser, D. J., P. Cui, J. Y. Takekawa, M. Tang, Y. Hou, B. M. Collins, B. Yan, N. J. Hill, T. Li, Y. Li, F. Lei, S. Guo, Z. Xing, Y. He, Y. Zhou, D. C. Douglas, W. M. Perry, and S. H. Newman. 2011. Wild bird migration across the Qinghai-Tibetan Plateau: a transmission route for highly pathogenic H5N1. PloS One 6:e17622.

      Pu, Z., and Y. Guo. 2023. Autumn migration of black-necked crane (Grus nigricollis) on the Qinghai-Tibetan and Yunnan-Guizhou plateaus. Ecology and Evolution 13:e10492.

      Wang, Y., C. Mi, and Y. Guo. 2020. Satellite tracking reveals a new migration route of black-necked cranes (Grus nigricollis) in Qinghai-Tibet Plateau. PeerJ 8:e9715.

      Yu, X., G. Song, H. Wang, Q. Wei, C. Jia, and F. Lei. 2024. Migratory flyways and connectivity of brown headed gulls (Chroicocephalus brunnicephalus) revealed by GPS tracking. Global Ecology and Conservation 56:e03340.

      Zhang, G.G., D.P. Liu, Y.Q. Hou, H.X. Jiang, M. Dai, F.W. Qian, J. Lu, T. Ma, L.X. Chen, and Z. Xing. 2014. Migration routes and stopover sites of Pallas’s gulls Larus ichthyaetus breeding at Qinghai Lake, China, determined by satellite tracking. Forktail 30:104-108.

      Zhang, G.G., D.P. Liu, Y.Q. Hou, H.X. Jiang, M. Dai, F.W. Qian, J. Lu, Z. Xing, and F.S. Li. 2011. Migration routes and stop-over sites determined with satellite tracking of bar-headed geese (Anser indicus) breeding at Qinghai Lake, China. Waterbirds 34:112-116, 115.

      Zhang, R., D. Jiang, C. Zhang, and Z. Zhang. 2022. Distinct effects of Tibetan Plateau growth and global cooling on the eastern and central Asian climates during the Cenozoic. Global and Planetary Change 218:103969.

      Zhao, T., W. Heim, R. Nussbaumer, M. van Toor, G. Zhang, A. Andersson, J. Bäckman, Z. Liu, G. Song, M. Hellström, J. Roved, Y. Liu, S. Bensch, B. Wertheim, F. Lei, and B. Helm. 2024. Seasonal migration patterns of Siberian Rubythroat (Calliope calliope) facing the Qinghai–Tibet Plateau. Movement Ecology 12:54.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      (1) Given their results the authors conclude that upregulation of Frizzled on the plasma membrane is not sufficient to explain the stabilization of beta-catenin seen in the ZNRF3/RNF43 mutant cells. This interpretation is sound, and they suggest in the discussion that ZNRF3/RNF43-mediated ubiquitination could serve as a sorting signal to sort endocytosed FZD to lysosomes for degradation and that absence or inhibition of this process would promote FZD recycling. This should be relatively easy to test using surface biotinylation experiments and would considerably strengthen the manuscript.

      Thank you for your valuable suggestions and comments. We will perform cell surface biotinylation experiments.

      (2) The authors show that the FZD5 CRD domain is required for endocytosis since a mutant FZD5 protein in which the CRD is removed does not undergo endocytosis. This is perhaps not surprising since this is the site of Wnt binding, but the authors show that a chimeric FZD5CRD-FZD4 receptor can confer Wnt-dependent endocytosis to an otherwise endocytosis incompetent FZD4 protein. Since the linker region between the CRD and the first TM differs between FZD5 and FZD4 it would be interesting to understand whether the CRD specifically or the overall arrangement (such as the spacing) is the most important determinant.

      Our results in Fig. 1F-G clearly show that the CRD of FZD5 specifically is both necessary and sufficient for Wnt3a/5a-induced FZD5 endocytosis, as replacing the CRD alone in FZD5 with the CRD from either FZD4 or FZD7 completely abolished Wnt-induced endocytosis, whereas replacing the CRD alone in FZD4 or FZD7 with the FZD5 CRD alone could confer Wnt-induced endocytosis.

      (3) I find it surprising that only FZD5 and FZD8 appear to undergo endocytosis or be stabilized at the cell surface upon ZNRF3/RNF43 knockout. Is this consistent with previous literature? Is that a cell-specific feature? These findings should be tested in a different cell line, with possibly different relative levels of ZNRF3 and RNF43 expression.

      Thank you for your comments and suggestions. Our finding that ZNRF3/RNF43 specifically regulates FZD5/8 degradation is consistent with recent published studies in which FZD5 is required for the survival of RNF43-mutant PDAC or colorectal cancer cells (Nature Medicine, 2017, PMID: 27869803) and FZD5 is required for the maintenance of intestinal stem cells (Developmental Cell, 2024, PMID: 39579768 and 39579769), and in both cases, FZDs other than FZD5/8 are also expressed but not sufficient to compensate for the function of FZD5. The mechanism by which Wnt3a/5a specifically induces FZD5/8 endocytosis and degradation is currently unknown and needs to be explored in the future. We speculate that Wnt binding to FZD5/8 may recruit another protein on the cell surface to specifically facilitate FZD5/8 endocytosis. On the other hand, we cannot exclude the possibility that Wnts other than Wnt3a/5a may induce the endocytosis and degradation of FZDs other than FZD5/8 since there are 19 Wnts and 10 FZDs in humans. We will perform flow cytometry experiments using FZD5/8-specific antibodies to examine whether Wnt3a/5a induces FZD5/8 endocytosis in more cell lines.

      (4) If FZD7 is not a substrate of ZNRF3/RNF43 and therefore is not ubiquitinated and degraded, how do the authors reconcile that its overexpression does not lead to elevated cytosolic beta-catenin levels in Figure 5B?

      We are currently not sure of the mechanism underlying this result. Considering that most FZDs are expressed in 293A cells, we do not know how much of the mature form of overexpressed FZD7 was presented to the plasma membrane.

      (5) For Figure 5B, it would be interesting if the authors could evaluate whether overexpression of FZD5 in the ZNRF3/RNF43 double knockout lines would synergize and lead to further increase in cytosolic beta-catenin levels. As control if the substrate selectivity is clear FZD7 overexpression in that line should not do anything.

      We will perform these experiments as you suggested.

      (6) In Figure 6G, the authors need to show cytosolic levels of beta-catenin in the absence of Wnt in all cases.

      We did not add Wnt CM in this experiment. RSPO1 activity, which relies on endogenous Wnt, has been well documented in previous studies.

      (7) Since the authors show that DVL is not involved in the Wnt and ZRNF3-dependent endocytosis they should repeat the proximity biotinylation experiment in figure 7 in the DVL triple KO cells. This is an important experiment since previous studies showed that DVL was required for the ZRNF3/RNF43-mediated ubiqtuonation of FZD.

      Thank you for your valuable suggestions. We will perform the proximity biotinylation experiment in DVL TKO cells.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary

      This manuscript aimed to study the role of Rudhira (also known as Breast Carcinoma Amplified Sequence 3), an endothelium-restricted microtubules-associated protein, in regulating of TGFβ signaling. The authors demonstrate that Rudhira is a critical signaling modulator for TGFβ signaling by releasing Smad2/3 from cytoskeletal microtubules and how Rudhira is a Smad2/3 target gene. Taken together, the authors provide a model of how Rudhira contributes to TGFβ signaling activity to stabilize the microtubules, which is essential for vascular development.

      Strengths

      The study used different methods and techniques to achieve aims and support conclusions, such as Gene Ontology analysis, functional analysis in culture, immunostaining analysis, and proximity ligation assay. This study provides an unappreciated additional layer of TGFβ signaling activity regulation after ligand receptor interaction.

      We thank the reviewer for acknowledging the importance of our study and providing a clear summary of our findings.

      Weaknesses

      (1) It is unclear how current findings provide a beVer understanding of Rudhira KO mice, which the authors published some years ago.

      Our previous study demonstrated that Rudhira KO mice have a predominantly developmental cardiovascular phenotype that phenocopies TGFβ loss of function (Shetty, Joshi et al., 2018). Additionally, we found that at the molecular level, Rudhira regulates cytoskeletal organization (Jain et al., 2012; Joshi and Inamdar, 2019). Our current study builds upon these previous findings, showing an essential role of Rudhira in maintaining TGFβ signaling and controlling the microtubule cytoskeleton during vascular development. On one hand Rudhira regulates TGFβ signaling by promoting the release of Smads from microtubules, while on the other, Rudhira is a TGFβ target essential for stabilizing microtubules. Thus, our current study provides a molecular basis for Rudhira function in cardiovascular development.

      (2) Why do they use HEK cells instead of SVEC cells in Figure 2 and 4 experiments?

      Our earlier studies have characterized the role of Rudhira in detail using both loss and gain of function methods in multiple cell types (Jain et al., 2012; SheVy, Joshi et al., 2018; Joshi and Inamdar, 2019). As endothelial cells are particularly difficult to transfect, and because the function of Rudhira in promoting cell migration is conserved in HEK cells, it was practical and relevant to perform these experiments in HEK cells (Figures 2 and 4E).

      (3) A model shown in Figure 5E needs improvement to grasp their findings easily.

      We have modified Figure 5E for clarity.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary

      It was first reported in 2000 that Smad2/3/4 are sequestered to microtubules in resting cells and TGF-β stimulation releases Smad2/3/4 from microtubules, allowing activation of the Smad signaling pathway. Although the finding was subsequently confirmed in a few papers, the underlying mechanism has not been explored. In the present study, the authors found that Rudhira/breast carcinoma amplified sequence 3 is involved in the release of Smad2/3 from microtubules in response to TGF-β stimulation. Rudhira is also induced by TGF-β and is probably involved in the stabilization of microtubules in the delayed phase after TGF-β stimulation. Therefore, Rudhira has two important functions downstream of TGF-β in the early as well as delayed phase.

      Strengths:

      This work aimed to address an unsolved question on one of the earliest events after TGF-β stimulation. Based on loss-of-function experiments, the authors identified a novel and potentially important player, Rudhira, in the signal transmission of TGF-β.

      We thank the reviewer for the critical evaluation and appreciation of our findings.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors have identified a key player that triggers Smad2/3 released from microtubules after TGF-β stimulation probably via its association with microtubules. This is an important first step for understanding the regulation of Smad signaling, but underlying mechanisms as well as upstream and downstream events largely remain to be elucidated.

      We acknowledge that the mechanisms regulating cytoskeletal control of Smad signaling are far from clear, but these are out of scope of this manuscript. This manuscript rather focuses on Rudhira/Bcas3 as a pivot to understand vascular TGFβ signaling and microtubule connections.

      (1) The process of how Rudhira causes the release of Smad proteins from microtubules remains unclear. The statement that "Rudhira-MT association is essential for the activation and release of Smad2/3 from MTs" (lines 33-34) is not directly supported by experimental data.

      We agree with the reviewer’s comment. Although we provide evidence that the loss of Rudhira (and thereby deduced loss of Rudhira-MT association) prevents release of Smad2/3 from MTs (Fig 3C), it does not confirm the requirement of Rudhira-MT association for this. In light of this, we have modified the statement to ‘Rudhira associates with MTs and is essential for the activation and release of Smad2/3 from MTs”.

      (2) The process of how Rudhira is mobilized to microtubules in response to TGF-β remains unclear.

      Our previous study showed that Rudhira associates with microtubules, and preferentially binds to stable microtubules (Jain et al., 2012; Joshi and Inamdar, 2019). Since TGFβ stimulation is known to stabilize microtubules, we hypothesize that TGFβ stimulation increases Rudhira binding to stable microtubules. We have mentioned this in our revised manuscript.

      (3) After Rudhira releases Smad proteins from microtubules, Rudhira stabilizes microtubules. The process of how cells return to a resting state and recover their responsiveness to TGF-β remains unclear.

      We show that dissociation of Smads from microtubules is an early response and stabilization of microtubules is a late TGFβ response. However, we agree that the sequence of these molecular events has not been characterized in-depth in this or any other study, making it difficult to assign causal roles (eg. whether release of Smads from MTs is a pre-requisite for MT stabilization by Rudhira) or reversibility. However, the TGFβ pathway is auto regulatory, leading to increased turnover of receptors and Smads and increased expression of inhibitory Smads, which may recover responsiveness to TGFβ. Additionally, the still short turnover time of stable microtubules (several minutes to hours) may also promote quick return to resting state. We have discussed this in our revised manuscript.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for The Authors):

      (1) Overall: Duration of TGF-β stimulation in cell-based assays should be described in the legends for readers' convenience. Avoid simple bar graphs because sample numbers are only 3. A scaVer plot should be super-imposed.

      Details added, as suggested. Duration of treatment is mentioned in Materials and methods section for figures 1C-D; 2A-B; 3; 4A-C; 5A-C; S2D; S3A-C; S4C, D. Bar graphs have been replaced with a bar + scatter plot. Note that, as the Excel file for data related to fig 4A was corrupted, we repeated the experiments to generate fresh data. Hence the graph had to be replaced. However, the result holds true as before.

      (2) Figure 1A: This panel is too small. Gene names are almost invisible.

      Modified for clarity.

      (3) Figure 1B: Show TGFβRI expression by immunoblomng (re-probing) to verify that it is expressed in the rightmost lane.

      TGFβRI overexpression was confirmed by qPCR in a replicate in the same experiment (Fig S2C).

      (4) Figure 1C: Show expression of Rudhira. In addition, confirm the positions of molecular weight markers. Smad2 migrated slower than pSmad2.

      Rudhira expression is shown in Fig S1B. Molecular weight markers have been corrected.

      (5) Figure 3A: This panel shows a negative result that Smad2/3 fails to interact with Rudhira. A positive control, for example, Smad4, would make the data convincing.

      Although it would be nice to have a positive control for interaction, we do not agree that a positive control of Smad4 is essential for our conclusion from this experiment, which is that ‘we were unable to detect an interaction between Rudhira and Smad2/3’.

      (6) Fig. 3B: Show Rudhira blot. If possible, show that the Rudhira-MT association precedes Smad phosphorylation by a time course experiment. This is an important point but not experimentally demonstrated.

      The interaction between Rudhira and microtubules with or without TGFβ is demonstrated by PLA (Fig 3E). Although important, the suggested time course experiments to assess the sequence of events are beyond the scope of this manuscript. 

      (7) Figure 3E: Does the process require the type I receptor kinase activity or non-Smad signaling pathways?

      Since TGFβ pathway is complex and is regulated at multiple steps, this possibility has not been tested and is beyond the scope of current study.

      (8) Figure 4A: The authors did not examine if these elements are functional. Therefore, this panel can be presented as a supplementary figure.

      As suggested, the panel has been moved to supplementary information.

      (9) Figure 4E: The figure legend does not say that cells were TGF-β-stimulated. It remains unclear if Smad2 and Smad3 are involved in Rudhira expression as phosphorylated or non-phosphorylated forms. Therefore, the authors should show a pSmad2 blot. In the absence of TGF-β stimulation, Smad2 and Smad3 are expected to be sequestrated to microtubules and therefore not phosphorylated. In the case that cells were stimulated with TGF-β, show if Rudhira is induced by TGF-β in HEK293T cells. This is not shown in this manuscript.

      This experiment was not performed under regulated conditions with or without TGFβ, hence the sensitivity to TGFβ could not be assessed. Cells were not stimulated with exogenous TGFβ, but cultured in regular medium with serum, which can have up to ~40 ng/ml of TGFβ (latent and active). Additionally, owing to severe depletion of Smad2 or Smad3 by shRNAs we expect sufficient loss of phospho-Smads2/3. 

      (10) Figure S1A: Rudhira migrated at the position corresponding to 91 kD only in this panel.

      Corrected the position of molecular weight marker.

      (11) Line 205-206, "Since in vivo studies indicate that rudhira depletion severely affects the TGFβ pathway [11]": Refer to Reference 11. The paper does not say anything about TGFβ.

      Reference corrected to Ref #14.

      (12) Smad4 was previously reported to be sequestered to microtubules [Ref. 7]. Does Rudhira release Smad4 also?

      This is an interesting point which could be followed up on our future studies.

      (13) It would be nice if the authors examined how Rudhira causes the release of Smad2/3 from microtubules. Currently, it remains unclear whether the association of Rudhira to microtubules is required for the release of Smad2/3. Does a Rudhira mutant lacking microtubule binding fail to induce the release of Smad2/3 after TGF-β stimulation? If so, do Rudhira and Smad2/3 share the same binding site on microtubules? In that case, the mechanism can be regarded as "competitive".

      This is a thoughtful experiment much beyond the scope of current manuscript. In our previous study we were able to localize the Tubulin binding sites of Rudhira primarily to its Bcas3 domain (Joshi and Inamdar, 2019), however the equivalent sites in Tubulin were not assessed. While MH2 domains of Smad2/3 bind β-tubulin, amino acids 114-243 of β-tubulin bind to Smad2/3 (Dai et al., 2007). A systematic study of these tripartite interactions including Rudhira would be an interesting follow up for our future study.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):  

      Summary:  

      The authors show that SVZ derived astrocytes respond to a middle carotid artery occlusion

      (MCAO) hypoxia lesion by secreting and modulating hyaluronan at the edge of the lesion (penumbra) and that hyaluronan is a chemoattractant to SVZ astrocytes. They use lineage tracing of SVZ cells to determine their origin. They also find that SVZ derived astrocytes express Thbs-4 but astrocytes at the MCAO-induced scar do not. Also, they demonstrate that decreased HA in the SVZ is correlated with gliogenesis. While much of the paper is descriptive/correlative they do overexpress Hyaluronan synthase 2 via viral vectors and show this is sufficient to recruit astrocytes to the injury. Interestingly, astrocytes preferred to migrate to the MCAO than to the region of overexpressed HAS2.  

      Strengths:  

      The field has largely ignored the gliogenic response of the SVZ, especially with regards to astrocytic function. These cells and especially newborn cells may provide support for regeneration. Emigrated cells from the SVZ have been shown to be neuroprotective via creating pro-survival environments, but their expression and deposition of beneficial extracellular matrix molecules is poorly understood. Therefore, this study is timely and important. The paper is very well written and the flow of results logical.  

      Comments on revised version:  

      The authors have addressed my points and the paper is much improved. Here are the salient remaining issues that I suggest be addressed.  

      We appreciate the feedback by the reviewer, and we are glad that the paper is considered to be much improved. We have done our best to address the remaining issues in this 2nd revision.

      The authors have still not shown, using loss of function studies, that Hyaluronan is necessary for SVZ astrogenesis and or migration to MCAO lesions.

      This is true. Unfortunately, complete removal of hyaluronan (via Hyase) triggers epilepsy, already described in 1963 by James Young (Exp Neurol paper). Degradation by Hyase also provokes neuroinflammation (Soria et al., 2020 Nat Commun). Two alternatives could be 1) partial depletion with Has inhibitor 4MU (but it is also associated with increased inflammation) or 2) a Has-KO mouse, such as Has3-/- (Arranz et al., 2014), although, to our knowledge, this mouse line is not openly available. We have added a sentence in line 332 addressing this shortcoming: “Loss-of-function studies, using HA-depletion models or HA synthase (Has)deficient mice are still needed to corroborate this finding, although the inflammation associated with HA deficiency might confound interpretation.”

      (1) The co-expression of EGFr with Thbs4 and the literature examination is useful.  

      We thank the reviewer for the kind comment.

      (2) Too bad they cannot explain the lack of effect of the MCAO on type C cells. The comparison with kainate-induced epilepsy in the hippocampus may or may not be relevant.

      As stated in the previous response, we also found this interesting, and it does warrant further exploration by looking into possible direct NSC-astrocyte differentiation. But we believe that both this possible direct differentiation and the reactive status for these astrocytes are out of the scope of the study. We will not speculate about this in the discussion, either.

      (3) Thanks for including the orthogonal confocal views in Fig S6D.  

      (4) The statement that "BrdU+/Thbs4+ cells mostly in the dorsal area" and therefore they mostly focused on that region is strange. Figure 8 clearly shows Thbs4 staining all along the striatal SVZ. Do they mean the dorsal segment of the striatal SVZ or the subcallosal SVZ? Fig. 4b and Fig 4f clearly show the "subcallosal" area as the one analysed but other figures show the dorsal striatal region (Fig. 2a). This is important because of the well-known embryological and neurogenic differences between the regions.  

      While it is true that Thbs4 is also expressed in the other subregions of the SVZ (lateral, ventral and medial), as observed in Fig 8. we chose the dorsal area because it is the subregion where we observed the larger increase in slow proliferative NSCs (Thbs4/GFAP/BrdU-positive cells) after MCAO (Fig S3). As observed in the quantifications in Fig S3, we found Thbs4/GFAP/BrdUpositive cells increase in lateral, medial and ventral SVZ, but it is not significant. Therefore, from Fig 4 onwards, we focused on the dorsal SVZ, which the reviewer mentions as “subcallosal” area. We chose the term “dorsal” as stated in single-cell studies (Cebrian-Silla et al, 2021, eLife; Marcy et al., 2023, Sci Adv) and reviews (Sequerra 2014 Front Cell Neurosci) that investigate or mention this subregion, respectively. In the abstract, we are perfectly clear stating that newborn astrocytes migrate frm both dorsal and medial areas.  

      In Fig 2a, the immunofluorescence image shows medial and lateral SVZ, but at this point in the paper, we have not yet made specific subregional quantifications, and the Nestin, DCX and Thbs4 quantifications refer to the SVZ as a whole, both in the IF and in the WB (Fig 2e-g). We apologize for the confusion. We have clarified this in the text (line 119).  

      (5) It is good to know that the harsh MCAO's had already been excluded.  

      (6) Sorry for the lack of clarity - in addition to Thbs4, I was referring to mouse versus rat Hyaluronan degradation genes (Hyal1, Hyal2 and Hyal3) and hyaluronan synthase genes (HAS1 and HAS2) in order to address the overall species differences in hyaluronan biology thus justifying the "shift" from mouse to rat. You examine these in the (weirdly positioned) Fig. 8h,i. Please add a few sentences on mouse vs rat Thbs4 and Hyaluronan relevant genes.  

      We thank the reviewer for these remarks. We have now added a sentence pointing to the similar internalization and degradation in rat and mouse (reviewed by Sherman et al., 2015). This correction is in line 233. Hyaluronan is, in evolutionary terms, a very “old” molecule, part of the “ancient” glycan-based matrix, before the evolution of proteoglycans and fibrous proteins such as collagen, laminin etc. Hence, its machinery is highly conserved across species.

      We have also reorganized the panels in Fig 8, where 8h and 8i were indeed weirdly positioned. We hope that the new version of this figure is more easily readable.

      (7) Thank you for the better justification of using the naked mole rat HA synthase.  

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):  

      Summary:  

      The authors aimed to study the activation of gliogenesis and the role of newborn astrocytes in a post-ischemic scenario. Combining immunofluorescence, BrdU-tracing and genetic cellular labelling, they tracked the migration of newborn astrocytes (expressing Thbs4) and found that Thbs4-positive astrocytes modulate the extracellular matrix at the lesion border by synthesis but also degradation of hyaluronan. Their results point to a relevant function of SVZ newborn astrocytes in the modulation of the glial scar after brain ischemia. This work's major strength is the fact that it is tackling the function of SVZ newborn astrocytes, whose role is undisclosed so far.  

      Strengths:  

      The article is innovative, of good quality, and clearly written, with properly described Materials and Methods, data analysis and presentation. In general, the methods are designed properly to answer the main question of the authors, being a major strength. Interpretation of the data is also in general well done, with results supporting the main conclusions of this article.  

      In this revised version, the points raised/weaknesses were clarified and discussed in the article.  

      Recommendations for the authors:  

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):  

      Minor points:  

      (1) Thanks for the clarification.  

      (2) Thanks for the clarification.  

      (3) The magnification is not apparent in Fig. 5.  

      We had removed two brain slices (from 4 to 2) in order to increase the size of the image 2-fold. We have now further increased the TTC panel, 25% from the revised version, 125% from the original.

      (4) Thanks for the clarification.  

      (5) Thanks for the clarification.  

      (6) Thanks for the clarification.  

      (7) Thanks for the clarification.  

      (8) Thanks for the clarification.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      (1) As VRMate (a component of behaviorMate) is written using Unity, what is the main advantage of using behaviorMate/VRMate compared to using Unity alone paired with Arduinos (e.g. Campbell et al. 2018), or compared to using an existing toolbox to interface with Unity (e.g. Alsbury-Nealy et al. 2022, DOI: 10.3758/s13428-021-01664-9)? For instance, one disadvantage of using Unity alone is that it requires programming in C# to code the task logic. It was not entirely clear whether VRMate circumvents this disadvantage somehow -- does it allow customization of task logic and scenery in the GUI? Does VRMate add other features and/or usability compared to Unity alone? It would be helpful if the authors could expand on this topic briefly.

      We have updated the manuscript (lines 412-422) to clarify the benefits of separating the VR system as an isolated program and a UI that can be run independently. We argue that “…the recommended behaviorMate architecture has several important advantages. Firstly, by rendering each viewing angle of a scene on a dedicated device, performance is improved by splitting the computational costs across several inexpensive devices rather than requiring specialized or expensive graphics cards in order to run…, the overall system becomes more modular and easier to debug [and] implementing task logic in Unity would require understanding Object-Oriented Programming and C# … which is not always accessible to researchers that are typically more familiar with scripting in Python and Matlab.”

      VRMate receives detailed configuration info from behaviorMate at runtime as to which VR objects to display and receives position updates during experiments. Any other necessary information about triggering rewards or presenting non-VR cues is still handled by the UI so no editing of Unity is necessary. Scene configuration information is in the same JSON format as the settings files for behaviorMate, additionally there are Unity Editor scripts which are provided in the VRmate repository which permit customizing scenes through a “drag and drop” interface and then writing the scene configuration files programmatically. Users interested in these features should see our github page to find example scene.vr files and download the VRMate repository (including the editor scripts).  We provided 4 vr contexts, as well as a settings file that uses one of them which can be found on the behaviorMate github page (https://github.com/losonczylab/behaviorMate) in the “vr_contexts” and “example_settigs_files” directories. These examples are provided to assist VRMate users in getting set up and could provide a more detailed example of how VRMate and behaviorMate interact.

      (2) The section on "context lists", lines 163-186, seemed to describe an important component of the system, but this section was challenging to follow and readers may find the terminology confusing. Perhaps this section could benefit from an accompanying figure or flow chart, if these terms are important to understand.

      We maintain the use of the term context and context list in order to maintain a degree of parity with the java code. However, we have updated lines 173-175 to define the term context for the behaviorMate system: “... a context is grouping of one or more stimuli that get activated concurrently. For many experiments it is desirable to have multiple contexts that are triggered at various locations and times in order to construct distinct or novel environments.”

      a. Relatedly, "context" is used to refer to both when the animal enters a particular state in the task like a reward zone ("reward context", line 447) and also to describe a set of characteristics of an environment (Figure 3G), akin to how "context" is often used in the navigation literature. To avoid confusion, one possibility would be to use "environment" instead of "context" in Figure 3G, and/or consider using a word like "state" instead of "context" when referring to the activation of different stimuli.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have updated Figure 3G to say “Environment” in order to avoid confusion.

      (3) Given the authors' goal of providing a system that is easily synchronizable with neural data acquisition, especially with 2-photon imaging, I wonder if they could expand on the following features:

      a. The authors mention that behaviorMate can send a TTL to trigger scanning on the 2P scope (line 202), which is a very useful feature. Can it also easily generate a TTL for each frame of the VR display and/or each sample of the animal's movement? Such TTLs can be critical for synchronizing the imaging with behavior and accounting for variability in the VR frame rate or sampling rate.

      Different experimental demands require varying levels of precision in this kind of synchronization signals. For this reason, we have opted against a “one-size fits all” for synchronization with physiology data in behaviorMate. Importantly this keeps the individual rig costs low which can be useful when constructing setups specifically for use when training animals. behaviorMate will log TTL pulses sent to GPIO pins setup as sensors, and can be configured to generate TTL pulses at regular intervals. Additionally all UDP packets received by the UI are time stamped and logged. We also include the output of the arduino millis() function in all UDP packets which can be used for further investigation of clock drift between system components. Importantly, since the system is event driven there cannot be accumulating drift across running experiments between the behaviorMate UI and networked components such as the VR system.

      For these reasons, we have not needed to implement a VR frame synchronization TTL for any of our experiments, however, one could extend VRMate to send "sync" packets back to behaviorMate to log when each frame was displayed precisely or TTL pulses (if using the same ODROID hardware we recommend in the standard setup for rendering scenes). This would be useful if it is important to account for slight changes in the frame rate at which the scenes are displayed. However, splitting rendering of large scenes between several devices results in fast update times and our testing and benchmarks indicate that display updates are smooth and continuous enough to appear coupled to movement updates from the behavioral apparatus and sufficient for engaging navigational circuits in the brain.

      b. Is there a limit to the number of I/O ports on the system? This might be worth explicitly mentioning.

      We have updated lines 219-220 in the manuscript to provide this information: Sensors and actuators can be connected to the controller using one of the 13 digital or 5 analog input/output connectors.

      c. In the VR version, if each display is run by a separate Android computer, is there any risk of clock drift between displays? Or is this circumvented by centralized control of the rendering onset via the "real-time computer"?

      This risk is mitigated by the real-time computer/UI sending position updates to the VR displays. The maximum amount scenes can be out of sync is limited because they will all recalibrate on every position update – which occurs multiple times per second as the animal is moving. Moreover, because position updates are constantly being sent by behaviorMate to VRMate and VRMate is immediately updating the scene according to this position, the most the scene can become out of sync with the mouse's position is proportional to the maximum latency multiplied by the running speed of the mouse. For experiments focusing on eliciting an experience of navigation, such a degree of asynchrony is almost always negligible. For other experimental demands it could be possible to incorporate more precise frame timing information but this was not necessary for our use case and likely for most other use cases. Additionally, refer to the response to comment 3a.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      (1) The central controlling logic is coupled with GUI and an event loop, without a documented plugin system. It's not clear whether arbitrary code can be executed together with the GUI, hence it's not clear how much the functionality of the GUI can be easily extended without substantial change to the source code of the GUI. For example, if the user wants to perform custom real-time analysis on the behavior data (potentially for closed-loop stimulation), it's not clear how to easily incorporate the analysis into the main GUI/control program.

      Without any edits to the existing source code behaviorMate is highly customizable through the settings files, which allow users to combine the existing contexts and decorators in arbitrary combinations. Therefore, users have been able to perform a wide variety of 1D navigation tasks, well beyond our anticipated use cases by generating novel settings files. The typical method for providing closed-loop stimulation would be to set up a context which is triggered by animal behavior using decorators (e.g. based on position, lap number and time) and then trigger the stimulation with a TTL pulse. Rarely, if users require a behavioral condition not currently implemented or composable out of existing decorators, it would require generating custom code in Java to extend the UI. Performing such edits requires only knowledge of basic object-oriented programming in Java and generating a single subclass of either the BasicContextList or ContextListDecorator classes. In addition, the JavaFX (under development) version of behaviorMate incorporates a plugin which doesn't require recompiling the code in order to make these changes. However, since the JavaFX software is currently under development, documentation does not yet exist. All software is open-sourced and available on github.com for users interested in generating plugins or altering the source code.

      We have added the additional caveat to the manuscript in order to clarify this point (Line 197-202): “However, if the available set of decorators is not enough to implement the required task logic, some modifications to the source code may be necessary. These modifications, in most cases, would be very simple and only a basic understanding of object-oriented programming is required. A case where this might be needed would be performing novel customized real-time analysis on behavior data and activating a stimulus based on the result”

      (2) The JSON messaging protocol lacks API documentation. It's not clear what the exact syntax is, supported key/value pairs, and expected response/behavior of the JSON messages. Hence, it's not clear how to develop new hardware that can communicate with the behaviorMate system.

      The most common approach for adding novel hardware is to use TTL pulses (or accept an emitted TTL pulse to read sensor states). This type of hardware addition  is possible through the existing GPIO without the need to interact with the software or JSON API. Users looking to take advantage of the ability to set up and configure novel behavioral paradigms without the need to write any software would be limited to adding hardware which could be triggered with and report to the UI with a TTL pulse (however fairly complex actions could be triggered this way).

      For users looking to develop more customized hardware solutions that interact closely with the UI or GPIO board, additional documentation on the JSON messaging protocol has been added to the behaviormate-utils repository (https://github.com/losonczylab/behaviormate_utils). Additionally, we have added a link to this repository in the Supplemental Materials section (line 971) and referenced this in the manuscript (line 217) to make it easier for readers to find this information.

      Furthermore, developers looking to add completely novel components to the UI  can implement the interface described by Context.java in order to exchange custom messages with hardware. (described  in the JavaDoc: https://www.losonczylab.org/behaviorMate-1.0.0/)  These messages would be defined within the custom context and interact with the custom hardware (meaning the interested developer would make a novel addition to the messaging API). Additionally, it should be noted that without editing any software, any UDP packets sent to behaviorMate from an IP address specified in the settings will get time stamped and logged in the stored behavioral data file meaning that are a large variety of hardware implementation solutions using both standard UDP messaging and through TTL pulses that can work with behaviorMate with minimal effort. Finally, see response to R2.1 for a discussion of the JavaFX version of the behaviorMatee UI including plugin support.

      (3) It seems the existing control hardware and the JSON messaging only support GPIO/TTL types of input/output, which limits the applicability of the system to more complicated sensor/controller hardware. The authors mentioned that hardware like Arduino natively supports serial protocols like I2C or SPI, but it's not clear how they are handled and translated to JSON messages.

      We provide an implementation for an I2C-based capacitance lick detector which interested developers may wish to copy if support for novel I2C or SPI. Users with less development experience wishing to expand the hardware capabilities of  behaviorMatecould also develop adapters which can be triggered  on a TTL input/output. Additionally, more information about the JSON API and how messages are transmitted to the PC by the arduino is described in point (2) and the expanded online documentation.

      a. Additionally, because it's unclear how easy to incorporate arbitrary hardware with behaviorMate, the "Intranet of things" approach seems to lose attraction. Since currently, the manuscript focuses mainly on a specific set of hardware designed for a specific type of experiment, it's not clear what are the advantages of implementing communication over a local network as opposed to the typical connections using USB.

      As opposed to serial communication protocols as typical with USB, networking protocols seamlessly function based on asynchronous message passing. Messages may be routed internally (e.g. to a PCs localhost address, i.e. 0.0.0..0) or to a variety of external hardware (e.g. using IP addresses such as those in the range 192.168.1.2 - 192.168.1.254). Furthermore, network-based communication allows modules, such as VR, to be added easily. behavoirMate systems can be easily expanded using low-cost Ethernet switches and consume only a single network adapter on the PC (e.g. not limited by the number of physical USB ports). Furthermore, UDP message passing is implemented in almost all modern programming languages in a platform independent manner (meaning that the same software can run on OSX, Windows, and Linux). Lastly, as we have pointed out (Line 117) a variety of tools exist for inspecting network packets and debugging; meaning that it is possible to run behaviorMate with simulated hardware for testing and debugging.

      The IOT nature of behaviorMate means there is no requirement for novel hardware to be implemented  using an arduino,  since any system capable of  UDP communication can  be configured. For example, VRMate is usually run on Odroid C4s, however one could easily create a system using Raspberry Pis or even additional PCs. behaviorMate is agnostic to the format of the UDP messages, but packaging any data in the JSON format for consistency would be encouraged. If a new hardware is a sensor that has input requiring it to be time stamped and logged then all that is needed is to add the IP address and port information to the ‘controllers’ list in a behaviorMate settings file. If more complex interactions are needed with novel hardware than a custom implementation of ContextList.java may be required (see response to R2.2). However, the provided UdpComms.java class could be used to easily send/receive messages from custom Context.java subclasses.

      Solutions for highly customized hardware do require basic familiarity with object-oriented programming using the Java programming language. However, in our experience most behavioral experiments do not require these kinds of modifications. The majority of 1D navigation tasks, which behaviorMate is currently best suited to control, require touch/motion sensors, LEDs, speakers, or solenoid valves,  which are easily controlled by the existing GPIO implementation. It is unlikely that custom subclasses would even be needed.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      (1) While using UDP for data transmission can enhance speed, it is thought that it lacks reliability. Are there error-checking mechanisms in place to ensure reliable communication, given its criticality alongside speed?

      The provided GPIO/behavior controller implementation sends acknowledgement packets in response to all incoming messages as well as start and stop messages for contexts and “valves”. In this way the UI can update to reflect both requested state changes as well as when they actually happen (although there is rarely a perceptible gap between these two states unless something is unplugged or not functioning). See Line 85 in the revised manuscript “acknowledgement packets are used to ensure reliable message delivery to and from connected hardware”.

      (2) Considering this year's price policy changes in Unity, could this impact the system's operations?

      VRMate is not affected by the recent changes in pricing structure of the Unity project.

      The existing compiled VRMate software does not need to be regenerated to update VR scenes, or implement new task logic (since this is handled by the behaviorMate GUI). Therefore, the VRMate program is robust to any future pricing changes or other restructuring of the Unity program and does not rely on continued support of Unity. Additionally, while the solution presented in VRMate has many benefits, a developer could easily adapt any open-source VR Maze project to receive the UDP-based position updates from behaviorMate or develop their own novel VR solutions.

      (3) Also, does the Arduino offer sufficient precision for ephys recording, particularly with a 10ms check?

      Electrophysiology recording hardware typically has additional I/O channels which can provide assistance with tracking behavior/synchronization at a high resolution. While behaviorMate could still be used to trigger reward valves, either the ephys hardware or some additional high-speed DAQ would be recommended to maintain accurately with high-speed physiology data. behaviorMate could still be set up as normal to provide closed and open-loop task control at behaviorally relevant timescales alongside a DAQ circuit recording events at a consistent temporal resolution. While this would increase the relative cost of the individual recording setup, identical rigs for training animals could still be configured without the DAQ circuit avoiding unnecessary cost and complexity.

      (4) Could you clarify the purpose of the Sync Pulse? In line 291, it suggests additional cues (potentially represented by the Sync Pulse) are needed to align the treadmill screens, which appear to be directed towards the Real-Time computer. Given that event alignment occurs in the GPIO, the connection of the Sync Pulse to the Real-Time Controller in Figure 1 seems confusing.

      A number of methods exist for synchronizing recording devices like microscopes or electrophysiology recordings with behaviorMate’s time-stamped logs of actuators and sensors. For example, the GPIO circuit can be configured to send sync triggers, or receive timing signals as input. Alternatively a dedicated circuit could record frame start signals and relay them to the PC to be logged independently of the GPIO (enabling a high-resolution post-hoc alignment of the time stamps). The optimal method to use varies based on the needs of the experiment. Our setups have a dedicated BNC output and specification in the settings file that sends a TTL pulse at the start of an experiment in order to trigger 2p imaging setups (see line 224, specifically that this is a detail of “our” 2p imaging setup). We provide this information as it might be useful suggesting how to have both behavior and physiology data start recording at the same time. We do not intend this to be the only solution for alignment. Figure 1 indicates an “optional” circuit for capturing a high speed sync pulse and providing time stamps back to the real time PC. This is another option that might be useful for certain setups (or especially for establishing benchmarks between behavior and physiology recordings). In our setup event alignment does not exclusively occur on the GPIO.

      a. Additionally, why is there a separate circuit for the treadmill that connects to the UI computer instead of the GPIO? It might be beneficial to elaborate on the rationale behind this decision in line 260.

      Event alignment does not occur on the GPIO, separating concerns between position tracking and more general input/output features which improves performance and simplifies debugging.  In this sense we maintain a single event loop on the Arduino, avoiding the need to either run multithreaded operations or rely extensively on interrupts which can cause unpredictable code execution (e.g. when multiple interrupts occur at the same time). Our position tracking circuit is therefore coupled to a separate,low-cost arduino mini which has the singular responsibility of position-tracking.

      b. Moreover, should scenarios involving pupil and body camera recordings connect to the Analog input in the PCB or the real-time computer for optimal data handling and processing?

      Pupil and body camera recordings would be independent data streams which can be recorded separately from behaviorMate. Aligning these forms of full motion video could require frame triggers which could be configured on the GPIO board using single TTL like outputs or by configuring a valve to be “pulsed” which is a provided type customization.

      We also note that a more advanced developer could easily leverage camera signals to provide closed loop control by writing an independent module that sends UDP packets to behavoirMate. For example a separate computer vision based position tracking module could be written in any preferred language and use UDP messaging to send body tracking updates to the UI without editing any of the behaviorMate source code (and even used for updating 1D location).

      (5) Given that all references, as far as I can see, come from the same lab, are there other labs capable of implementing this system at a similar optimal level?

      To date two additional labs have published using behaviorMate, the Soltez and Henn labs (see revised lines 341-342). Since behaviorMate has only recently been published and made available open source, only external collaborators of the Losonczy lab have had access to the software and design files needed to do this. These collaborators did, however, set up their own behavioral setups in separate locations with minimal direct support from the authors–similar to what would be available to anyone seeking to set a behaviorMate system would find online on our github page or by posting to the message board.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (4) To provide additional context for the significance of this work, additional citations would be helpful to demonstrate a ubiquitous need for a system like behaviorMate. This was most needed in the paragraph from lines 46-65, specifically for each sentence after line 55, where the authors discuss existing variants on head-fixed behavioral paradigms. For instance, for the clause "but olfactory and auditory stimuli have also been utilized at regular virtual distance intervals to enrich the experience with more salient cues", suggested citations include Radvansky & Dombeck 2018 (DOI: 10.1038/s41467-018-03262-4), Fischler-Ruiz et al. 2021 (DOI: 10.1016/j.neuron.2021.09.055).

      We thank the reviewer for the suggested missing citations and have updated the manuscript accordingly (see line 58).

      (5) In addition, it would also be helpful to clarify behaviorMate's implementation in other laboratories. On line 304 the authors mention "other labs" but the following list of citations is almost exclusively from the Losonczy lab. Perhaps the citations just need to be split across the sentence for clarity? E.g. "has been validated by our experimental paradigms" (citation set 1) "and successfully implemented in other labs as well" (citation set 2).

      We have split the citation set as suggested (see lines 338-342).

      Minor Comments:

      (6) In the paragraph starting line 153 and in Fig. 2, please clarify what is meant by "trial" vs. "experiment". In many navigational tasks, "trial" refers to an individual lap in the environment, but here "trial" seems to refer to the whole behavioral session (i.e. synonymous with "experiment"?).

      In our software implementation we had originally used “trial” to refer to an imaging session rather than experiment (and have made updates to start moving to the more conventional lexicon). To avoid confusion we have remove this use of “trial” throughout the manuscript and replaced with “experiment” whenever possible

      (7) This is very minor, but in Figure 3 and 4, I don't believe the gavage needle is actually shown in the image. This is likely to avoid clutter but might be confusing to some readers, so it may be helpful to have a small inset diagram showing how the needle would be mounted.

      We assessed the image both with and without the gavage needle and found the version in the original (without) to be easier to read and less cluttered and therefore maintained that version in the manuscript.

      (8) In Figure 5 legend, please list n for mice and cells.

      We have updated the Figure 5 legend to indicate that for panels C-G, n=6 mice (all mice were recorded in both VR and TM systems), 3253 cells in VR classified as significantly tuned place cells VR, and 6101 tuned cells in TM,

      (9) Line 414: It is not necessary to tilt the entire animal and running wheel as long as the head-bar clamp and objective can rotate to align the imaging window with the objective's plane of focus. Perhaps the authors can just clarify the availability of this option if users have a microscope with a rotatable objective/scan head.

      We have added the suggested caveat to the manuscript in order to clarify when the goniometers might be useful (see lines 281-288).

      (10) Figure S1 and S2 could be referenced explicitly in the main text with their related main figures.

      We have added explicit references to figures S1 and S2 in the relevant sections (see lines 443, 460  and 570)

      (11) On line 532-533, is there a citation for "proximal visual cues and tactile cues (which are speculated to be more salient than visual cues)"?

      We have added citations to both Knierim & Rao 2003 and Renaudineau et al. 2007 which discuss the differential impact of proximal vs distal cues during navigation as well as Sofroniew et al. 2014 which describe how mice navigate more naturally in a tactile VR setup as opposed to purely visual ones.

      (12) There is a typo at the end of the Figure 2 legend, where it should say "Arduino Mini."

      This typo has been fixed.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (4) As mentioned in the public review: what is the major advantage of taking the IoT approaches as opposed to USB connections to the host computer, especially when behaviorMate relies on a central master computer regardless? The authors mentioned the readability of the JSON messages, making the system easier to debug. However, the flip side of that is the efficiency of data transmission. Although the bandwidth/latency is usually more than enough for transmitting data and commands for behavior devices, the efficiency may become a problem when neural recording devices (imaging or electrophysiology) need to be included in the system.

      behaviorMate is not intended to do everything, and is limited to mainly controlling behavior and providing some synchronizing TTL style triggers. In this way the system can easily and inexpensively be replicated across multiple recording setups; particularly this is useful for constructing additional animal training setups. The system is very much sufficient for capturing behavioral inputs at relevant timescales (see the benchmarks in Figures 3 and 4 as well as the position correlated neural activity in Figures 5 and 6 for demonstration of this). Additional hardware might be needed to align the behaviorMate output with neural data for example a high-speed DAQ or input channels on electrophysiology recording setups could be utilized (if provided). As all recording setups are different the ideal solution would depend on details which are hard to anticipate. We do not mean to convey that the full neural data would be transmitted to the behaviorMate system (especially using the JSON/UDP communications that behaviorMate relies on).

      (5) The author mentioned labView. A popular open-source alternative is bonsai (https://github.com/bonsai-rx/bonsai). Both include a graphical-based programming interface that allows the users to easily reconfigure the hardware system, which behaviorMate seems to lack. Additionally, autopilot (https://github.com/auto-pi-lot/autopilot) is a very relevant project that utilizes a local network for multiple behavior devices but focuses more on P2P communication and rigorously defines the API/schema/communication protocols for devices to be compatible. I think it's important to include a discussion on how behaviorMate compares to previous works like these, especially what new features behaviorMate introduces.

      We believe that behaviorMate provides a more opinionated and complete solution than the projects mentioned. A wide variety of 1D navigational paradigms can be constructed in behaviorMate without the need to write any novel software. For example, bonsai is a “visual programming language” and would require experimenters to construct a custom implementation of each of their experiments. We have opted to use Java for the UI with distributed computations across modules in various languages. Given the IOT methodology it would be possible to use any number of programming languages or APIs; a large number of design decisions were made  when building the project and we have opted to not include this level of detail in the manuscript in order to maintain readability. We strongly believe in using non-proprietary and open source projects, when possible, which is why the comparison with LabView based solutions was included in the introduction. Also, we have added a reference to the autopilot reference to the section of the introduction where this is discussed.

      (6) One of the reasons labView/bonsai are popular is they are inherently parallel and can simultaneously respond to events from different hardware sources. While the JSON events in behaviorMate are asynchronous in nature, the handling of those events seems to happen only in a main event loop coupled with GUI, which is sequential by nature. Is there any multi-threading/multi-processing capability of behaviorMate? If so it's an important feature to highlight. If not I think it's important to discuss the potential limitation of the current implementation.

      IOT solutions are inherently concurrent since the computation is distributed. Additional parallelism could be added by further distributing concerns between additional independent modules running on independent hardware. The UI has an eventloop which aggregates inputs and then updates contexts based on the current state of those inputs sequentially. This sort of a “snapshot” of the current state is necessary to reason about when the start certain contexts based on their settings and applied decorators. While the behaviorMate UI uses multithreading libraries in Java to be more performant in certain cases, the degree to which this represents true vs “virtual” concurrency would depend on the individual PC architecture it is run on and how the operating system allocates resources. For this reason, we have argued in the manuscript that behaviorMate is sufficient for controlling experiments at behaviorally relevant timescales, and have presented both benchmarks and discussed different synchronization approaches and permit users to determine if this is sufficient for their needs.

      (7) The context list is an interesting and innovative approach to abstract behavior contingencies into a data structure, but it's not currently discussed in depth. I think it's worth highlighting how the context list can be used to cover a wide range of common behavior experimental contingencies with detailed examples (line 185 might be a good example to give). It's also important to discuss the limitation, as currently the context lists seem to only support contingencies based purely on space and time, without support for more complicated behavior metrics (e.g. deliver reward only after X% correct).

      To access more complex behavior metrics during runtime, custom context list decorators would need to be implemented. While this is less common in the sort of 1D navigational behaviors the project was originally designed to control, adding novel decorators is a simple process that only requires basic object oriented programming knowledge. As discussed we are also implementing a plugin-architecture in the JavaFX update to streamline these types of additions.

      Minor Comments:

      (8) In line 202, the author suggests that a single TTL pulse is sent to mark the start of a recording session, and this is used to synchronize behavior data with imaging data later. In other words, there are no synchronization signals for every single sample/frame. This approach either assumes the behavior recording and imaging are running on the same clock or assumes evenly distributed recording samples over the whole recording period. Is this the case? If so, please include a discussion on limitations and alternative approaches supported by behaviorMate. If not, please clarify how exactly synchronization is done with one TTL pulse.

      While the TTL pulse triggers the start of neural data in our setups, various options exist for controlling for the described clock drift across experiments and the appropriate one depends on the type of recordings made, frame rate duration of recording etc. Therefore behaviorMate leaves open many options for synchronization at different time scales (e.g. the adding a frame-sync circuit as shown in Figure 1 or sending TTL pulses to the same DAQ recording electrophysiology data).  Expanded consideration of different synchronization methods has been included in the manuscript (see lines 224-238).

      (9) Is the computer vision-based calibration included as part of the GUI functionality? Please clarify. If it is part of the GUI, it's worth highlighting as a very useful feature.

      The computer vision-based benchmarking is not included in the GUI. It is in the form of a script made specifically for this paper. However for treadmill-based experiments behaviorMate has other calibration tools built into it (see line 301-303).

      (10) I went through the source code of the Arduino firmware, and it seems most "open X for Y duration" functions are implemented using the delay function. If this is indeed the case, it's generally a bad idea since delay completely pauses the execution and any events happening during the delay period may be missed. As an alternative, please consider approaches comparing timestamps or using interrupts.

      We have avoided the use of interrupts on the GPIO due to the potential for unpredictable code execution. There is a delay which is only just executed if the duration is 10 ms or less as we cannot guarantee precision of the arduino eventloop cycling faster than this. Durations longer than 10 ms would be time stamped and non-blocking. We have adjusted this MAX_WAIT to be specified as a macro so it can be more easily adjusted (or set to 0).

      (11) Figure 3 B, C, D, and Figure 4 D, E suffer from noticeable low resolution.

      We have converted Figure 3B, C, D and 4C, D, E to vector graphics in order to improve the resolution.

      (12) Figure 4C is missing, which is an important figure.

      This figure appeared when we rendered and submitted the manuscript. We apologize if the figure was generated such that it did not load properly in all pdf viewers. The panel appears correctly in the online eLife version of the manuscript. Additionally, we have checked the revision in Preview on Mac OS as well as Adobe Acrobat and the built-in viewer in Chrome and all figure panels appear in each so we hope this issue has been resolved.

      (13) There are thin white grid lines on all heatmaps. I don't think they are necessary.

      The grid lines have been removed from the heatmaps  as suggested.

      (14) Line 562 "sometimes devices directly communicate with each other for performance reasons", I didn't find any elaboration on the P2P communication in the main text. This is potentially worth highlighting as it's one of the advantages of taking the IoT approaches.

      In our implementation it was not necessary to rely on P2P communication beyond what is indicated in Figure 1. The direct communication referred to in line 562 is meant only to refer to the examples expanded on in the rest of the paragraph i.e. the behavior controller may signal the microscope directly using a TTL signal without looping back to the UI. As necessary users could implement UDP message passing between devices, but this is outside the scope of what we present in the manuscript.

      (15) Line 147 "Notably, due to the systems modular architecture, different UIs could be implemented in any programming language and swapped in without impacting the rest of the system.", this claim feels unsupported without a detailed discussion of how new code can be incorporated in the GUI (plugin system).

      This comment refers to the idea of implementing “different UIs”. This would entail users desiring to take advantage of the JSON messaging API and the proposed electronics while fully implementing their own interface. In order to facilitate this option we have improved documentation of the messaging API posted in the README file accompanying the arduino source code. We have added reference to the supplemental materials where readers can find a link to the JSON API implementation to clarify this point.

      Additionally, while a plugin system is available in the JavaFX version of behaviorMate, this project is currently under development and will update the online documentation as this project matures, but is unrelated to the intended claim about completely swapping out the UI.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (6) Figure 1 - the terminology for each item is slightly different in the text and the figure. I think making the exact match can make it easier for the reader.

      - Real-time computer (figure) vs real-time controller (ln88).

      The manuscript was adjusted to match figure terminology.

      - The position controller (ln565) - position tracking (Figure).

      We have updated Figure 1 to highlight that the position controller does the position tracking.

      - Maybe add a Behavior Controller next to the GPIO box in Figure 1.

      We updated Figure 1 to highlight that the Behavior Controller performs the GPIO responsibility such that "Behavior Controller" and "GPIO circuit" may be used interchangeably.

      - Position tracking (fig) and position controller (subtitle - ln209).

      We updated Figure 1 to highlight that the position controller does the position tracking.

      - Sync Pulse is not explained in the text.

      The caption for Figure 1 has been updated to better explain the Sync pulse and additional systems boxes

      (7) For Figure 3B/C: What is the number of data points? It would be nice to see the real population, possibly using a swarm plot instead of box plots. How likely are these outliers to occur?

      In order to better characterize the distributions presented in our benchmarking data we have added mean and standard deviation information the plots 3 and 4. For Figure 3B: 0.0025 +/- 0.1128, Figure 3C: 12.9749 +/- 7.6581, Figure 4C: 66.0500 +/- 15.6994, Figure 4E: 4.1258 +/- 3.2558.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Time periods in which experience regulates early plasticity in sensory circuits are well established, but the mechanisms that control these critical periods are poorly understood. In this manuscript, Leier and Foden and colleagues examine early-life critical periods that regulate the Drosophila antennal lobe, a model sensory circuit for understanding synaptic organization. Using early-life (0-2 days old) exposure to distinct odorants, they show that constant odor exposure markedly reduces the volume, synapse number, and function of the VM7 glomerulus. The authors offer evidence that these changes are mediated by invasion of ensheathing glia into the glomerulus where they phagocytose connections via a mechanism involving the engulfment receptor Draper.

      This manuscript is a striking example of a study where the questions are interesting, the authors spent a considerable amount of time to clearly think out the best experiments to ask their questions in the most straightforward way, and expressed the results in a careful, cogent, and well-written fashion. It was a genuine delight to read this paper. I have two experimental suggestions that would really round out existing work to better support the existing conclusions and some instances where additional data or tempered language in describing results would better support their conclusions. Overall, though, this is an incredibly important finding, a careful analysis, and an excellent mechanistic advance in understanding sensory critical period biology.

      We thank the reviewer for their thoughtful and constructive comments on our manuscript. In response to their critiques, we conducted several new experiments as well as additional analysis and making changes to the text. As requested, we carried out an electrophysiological analysis of VM7 PN firing in draper knockdown animals with and without odor exposure. To our surprise, loss of glial Draper fully suppresses the dramatic reduction in spontaneous PN activity observed following critical period ethyl butyrate exposure, arguing that the functional response is restored alongside OSN morphology. It also suggests that the OR42a OSN terminals are intact and functional until they are phagocytosed by ensheathing glia. In other words, glia are not merely clearing axon terminals that have already degenerated. This evidence provides additional support to the claim that the VM7 glomerulus will be an outstanding model for defining mechanism of experience-dependent glial pruning. Detailed responses to the reviewers’ comments follow below. 

      Regarding the apparent disconnect between the near complete silencing of PNs versus the 50% reduction in OR42a OSN infiltration volume, we agree with the reviewer that this tracks with previous data in the field. While our Imaris pipeline is relatively sensitive, it may not pick up modest changes to terminal arbor architecture. Indeed, as described in Jindal et al. (2023) and in the Methods in this manuscript, we chose conservative software settings that, if anything, would undercount the percent change in infiltration volume. We also note that increased inhibitory LN inputs onto PNs could contribute to dramatic PN silencing we observe. While fascinating, we view LN plasticity beyond the scope of the current manuscript. We removed any mention of ‘silent synapses’ and now speculate about increased inhibition. 

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major Elements:

      (1) The authors demonstrate that loss of draper in glia can suppress many of the pruning related phenotypes associated with EB exposure. However, they do not assess electrophysiological output in these experiments, only morphology. It would be great to see recordings from those animals to see if the functional response is also restored.

      We performed the experiment the reviewer requested (see Figure 4F-J). We are pleased to report that our recordings from VM7 PNs match our morphology measurements: in repo-GAL4>UAS-draper RNAi flies, there was no difference in the innervation of VM7 PNs between animals exposed to mineral oil or 15% EB from 0-2 DPE. This result is in sharp contrast to the near-total loss of OSN-PN innervation in flies with intact glial Draper signaling, and strongly validates the role we propose for Draper in the Or42a OSN critical period.

      (2) There is a disconnect between physiology and morphology with a near complete loss of activity from VM7 PNs but a less severe loss of ORN synapses. While not completely incongruent (previous work in the AL showed a complete loss of attractive behavior though synapse number was only reduced 40% - Mosca et al. 2017, eLife), it is curious. Can the authors comment further? Ideally, some of these synapses could be visualized by EM to determine if the remaining synapses are indeed of correct morphology. If not, this could support their assertion of silent inputs from page 7. Further, what happens to the remaining synapses? VM7 PNs should be receiving some activity from other local interneurons as well as neighboring PNs.

      We agree that on the surface, our electrophysiology results are more striking than one might expect solely from our measurements of VM7 morphology and presynaptic content. As the reviewer points out, previous studies of fly olfaction have consistently found that relatively modest shifts in glomerular volume in response to prolonged earlylife odorant exposure can be accompanied by drastic changes in physiology and behavior (in addition, we would add Devaud et al., 2003; Devaud et al., 2001; Acebes et al., 2012; and Chodankar et al., 2020, as foundational examples of this phenomenon). 

      A major driver of these changes appears to be remodeling of antennal lobe inhibitory LNs (see Das et al., 2011; Wilson and Laurent, 2005; Chodankar et al., 2020), especially GABAergic inhibitory interneurons. Perhaps increased LN inhibition of chronically activated PNs, on top of the reduced excitatory inputs resulting from ensheathing glial pruning of the Or42a OSN terminal arbor, would explain the near-total loss of VM7 PN activity we observe after critical period EB exposure. However, given that the scope of our study is limited to critical-period glial biology and does not address the complex topics of LN rewiring or synapse morphology, we have removed the sentence in which we raise the possibility of “silent synapses” in order to avoid confusion. The reviewer is also correct that VM7 PNs have inputs from non-ORN presynaptic partners, including LNs and PNs. So again, perhaps increased inhibitory inputs contributes to the near-complete silencing of the PNs. Given the heterogeneity of LN populations, we view this area as fertile ground for future research. 

      Language / Data Considerations:

      (1) Or42a OSNs have other inputs, namely, from LNs. What are they doing here? Are they also affected?

      As discussed above, the question of how LN innervation of Or42a OSNs is altered by critical-period EB exposure is an intriguing one that fully deserves its own follow-up study, and we have tried to avoid speculation about the role of LNs when discussing our pruning phenotype. We note at multiple points throughout the text the importance of LNs and refer to previous studies of LN plasticity in response to chronic odorant exposure. 

      (2) In all of the measurements, what happens to synaptic density? Is it maintained? Does it scale precisely? This would be helpful to know.

      We have performed the analysis as requested, which is now included in a supplement to Figure 5. We found that synaptic density shows no trend in variation across conditions and glial driver genotypes.

      (3) In Figure 5, the controls for the alrm-GAL4 experiments show a much more drastic phenotype than controls in previous figures? Does this background influence how we can interpret the results? Could the response have instead hit a floor effect and it's just not possible to recover?

      The reviewer is correct that following EB exposure, astrocyte vs. ensheathing glial driver backgrounds displayed modest differences in the extent of pruning by volume (0.27 for astros, 0.36 for EG). We note that the two drpr RNAi lines that we used had non-significant (but opposite) effects on the estimated size of OSN42a OSN volume in combination with the astrocyte driver, arguing against a floor effect. In addition, a recent publication by Nelson et al. (2024) replicated our findings with a different astrocyte GAL4 driver and draper RNAi line. Thus, we are confident that this result is biologically meaningful and not an artifact of genetic background. 

      (4) The estimation of infiltration measurement in Figure 6 is tricky to interpret. It implies that the projections occupy the same space, which cannot be possible. I'd advocate a tempering of some of this language and consider an intensity measurement in addition to their current volume measurements (or perhaps an "occupied space" measurement) to more accurately assess the level of resolution that can be obtained via these methods.

      We completely agree that our language in describing EG infiltration could have been more precise, and we modified our language as suggested. The combination of the Or42a-mCD8::GFP label we and others use, our use of confocal microscopy, and our Surface pipeline in Imaris combine to create a glomerular mask that traces the outline of the OSN terminal arbor, but is nonetheless not 100% “filled” by neuronal membrane and/or glial processes. 

      (5) Do the authors have the kind of resolution needed to tell whether there is indeed Or42a-positive axon fragmentation (as asserted on p16 and from their data in figures 4, 5, 7). If the authors want to say this, I would advocate for a measurement of fragmentation / total volume to prove it - if not, I would advocate tempering of the current language.

      The reviewer brings up a fair criticism: while our assertion about axon fragmentation was based on our visual observations of hundreds of EB-exposed brains, the resolution limits of confocal microscopy do not allow us to rigorously rule out fragmentation within a bundle of OSN axons. Instead, our most compelling evidence for the lack of EB-induced Or42a OSN fragmentation in the absence of glial Draper comes from our new electrophysiology data (Figure 4F-J) in repo-GAL4>UAS-draper RNAi animals. We found no difference in spontaneous release from Or42a terminals in flies exposed to mineral oil or 15% EB from 0-2 DPE, which would not be the case if there was Draper-independent fragmentation along the axons or terminal arbors upon EB exposure. We have updated our discussion of fragmentation so that our statements are based on this new evidence, and not confocal microscopy. 

      (6) There is an interesting Discussion opportunity missed here. Some experiments would, ostensibly, require pupae to detect odorants within the casing via structures consistently in place for olfaction during pupation. It would be useful for the authors to discuss a little more deeply when this critical period may arise and why the experiment where pupae are exposed to EB two days before eclosion and there is no response, occurs as it does. I agree that it's clearly a time when they are not sensitive to the odorant, but that could just be because there's no ability to detect odorants at that time. Is it a question of non-sensitivity to EB or just non-sensitivity to everything?

      We share the reviewer’s interest in the plasticity of the olfactory circuit during pupariation, although, as they correctly point out, it is difficult to conceive of an odorant-exposure experiment that could disentangle the barrier effects of puparium from the sensitivity of the circuit itself, and our pre-eclosion data in Figure 3A, D, G does not distinguish between the two. While an investigation into mechanism by which the critical period for ethyl butyrate exposure opens and closes is outside the scope of the present study, we would consider the physical barrier of the puparium to be a satisfactory explanation for why eclosion marks the functional opening of experiencedependent plasticity. As the reviewer suggests, we have added this important nuance to our discussion of the opening of the critical period in the corresponding paragraph of the Results, as well as to the Discussion section “Glomeruli exhibit dichotomous responses to critical period odor exposure.” 

      Minor Elements:

      (1) Page 6 bottom: "Or4a-mCD8::GFP" should be "Or42a-mCD8::GFP"

      (2) Page 15, end of last full paragraph. Remove the "e"

      Thank you for pointing out these typos. They have been corrected. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Sensory experiences during developmental critical periods have long-lasting impacts on neural circuit function and behavior. However, the underlying molecular and cellular mechanisms that drive these enduring changes are not fully understood. In Drosophila, the antennal lobe is composed of synapses between olfactory sensory neurons (OSNs) and projection neurons (PNs), arranged into distinct glomeruli. Many of these glomeruli show structural plasticity in response to early-life odor exposure, reflecting the sensitivity of the olfactory circuitry to early sensory experiences.

      In their study, the authors explored the role of glia in the development of the antennal lobe in young adult flies, proposing that glial cells might also play a role in experiencedependent plasticity. They identified a critical period during which both structural and functional plasticity of OSN-PN synapses occur within the ethyl butyrate (EB)responsive VM7 glomerulus. When flies were exposed to EB within the first two days post-eclosion, significant reductions in glomerular volume, presynaptic terminal numbers, and postsynaptic activity were observed. The study further highlights the importance of the highly conserved engulfment receptor Draper in facilitating this critical period plasticity. The authors demonstrated that, in response to EB exposure during this developmental window, ensheathing glia increase Draper expression, infiltrate the VM7 glomerulus, and actively phagocytose OSN presynaptic terminals. This synapse pruning has lasting effects on circuit function, leading to persistent decreases in both OSN-PN synapse numbers and spontaneous PN activity as analyzed by perforated patch-clamp electrophysiology to record spontaneous activity from PNs postsynaptic to Or42a OSNs.

      In my view, this is an intriguing and potentially valuable set of data. However, since I am not an expert in critical periods or habituation, I do not feel entirely qualified to assess the full significance or the novelty of their findings, particularly in relation to existing research.

      We thank the reviewer for their insightful critique of our work. In response to their comments, we added additional physiological analysis and tempered our language around possible explanations for the apparent disconnect between the physiological and morphological critical period odor exposure. These changes are explained in more detail in the response to the public review by Reviewer 1 and also in our responses outlined below. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I though do have specific comments and questions concerning the presynaptic phenotype they deduce from confocal BRP stainings and electrophysiology.

      Concerning the number of active zones: this can hardly be deduced from standardresolution confocal images and, maybe more importantly, lacking postsynaptic markers. This particularly also in the light of them speculating about "silent synapses". There are now tools existing concerning labeled, cell type specific expression of acetylcholine-receptor expression and cholinergic postsynaptic density markers (importantly Drep2). Such markers should be entailed in their analysis. They should refer to previous concerning "brp-short" concerning its original invention and prior usage.

      We thank the reviewer for their thoughtful approach to our methodology and claims. While the use of confocal microscopy of Bruchpilot puncta to estimate numbers of presynapses is standard practice (see Furusawa et al., 2023; Aimino et al., 2022; Urwyler et al., 2019; Ackerman et al., 2021), the reviewer is correct that a punctum does not an active zone make. Bruchpilot staining and quantification is a well-validated tool for approximating the number of presynaptic active zones, not a substitute for super-resolution microscopy. We made changes to our language about active zones to make this distinction clearer. We have also removed the sentence where we discuss the possibility of “silent synapses,” which both reviewers felt was too speculative for our existing data. Finally, we are highly interested in characterizing the response of PNs and higher-order processing centers to critical-period odorant exposure as a future direction for our research. However, given the complexity of the subject, we chose to limit the scope of this study to the interactions between OSNs and glia. 

      Regarding their electrophysiological analysis and the plausibility of their findings: I am uncertain whether the moderate reduction in BRP puncta at the relevant OSN::PN synapse can fully account for the significantly reduced spontaneous PN activity they report. This seems particularly doubtful in the absence of any direct evidence for postsynaptically silent synapses. Perhaps this is my own naivety, but I wonder why they did not use antennal nerve stimulation in their experiments?

      We refer to previous studies of the AL indicating that moderate changes in glomerular volume and presynaptic content can translate to far more striking alterations in electrophysiology and behavior (Devaud et al., 2003; Devaud et al., 2001; Acebes et al., 2012; and Chodankar et al., 2020, Mosca et al., 2017). This literature has demonstrated that chronic odorant exposure can result in remodeling of inhibitory local interneurons to suppress over-active inputs from OSNs. While we do not address the complex subject of interneuron remodeling in the present study, we find it highly likely that there would be significant changes in interneuron innervation of PNs, independent of glial phagocytosis of OSN excitatory inputs, resulting in additional inhibition. Moving forward, we are very interested in expanding these studies to include odor-evoked changes in PN activity.  

      Additional minor point: The phrase "Soon after its molecular biology was described (et al., 1999), the Drosophila melanogaster" seems somewhat misleading. Isn't the field still actively describing the molecular biology of the fly olfactory system?

      We completely agree and have removed this sentence entirely.  

      Reviewing Editor's Note: to enhance the evidence from mostly compelling in most facets to solid would be to add physiology to the Draper analysis.

      These experiments have been completed and are presented in Figure 4F-J. 

      References

      Acebes A, Devaud J-M, Arnés M, Ferrús A. 2012. Central Adaptation to Odorants Depends on PI3K Levels in Local Interneurons of the Antennal Lobe. J Neurosci 32:417–422. doi:10.1523/jneurosci.2921-11.2012

      Ackerman SD, Perez-Catalan NA, Freeman MR, Doe CQ. 2021. Astrocytes close a motor circuit critical period. Nature592:414–420. doi:10.1038/s41586-021-03441-2

      Aimino MA, DePew AT, Restrepo L, Mosca TJ. 2022. Synaptic Development in Diverse Olfactory Neuron Classes Uses Distinct Temporal and Activity-Related Programs. J Neurosci 43:28–55. doi:10.1523/jneurosci.0884-22.2022

      Chodankar A, Sadanandappa MK, VijayRaghavan K, Ramaswami M. 2020. Glomerulus-Selective Regulation of a Critical Period for Interneuron Plasticity in the Drosophila Antennal Lobe. J Neurosci 40:5549–5560. doi:10.1523/jneurosci.2192-19.2020

      Das S, Sadanandappa MK, Dervan A, Larkin A, Lee JA, Sudhakaran IP, Priya R, Heidari R, Holohan EE, Pimentel A, Gandhi A, Ito K, Sanyal S, Wang JW, Rodrigues V, Ramaswami M. 2011. Plasticity of local GABAergic interneurons drives olfactory habituation. Proc Natl Acad Sci 108:E646–E654. doi:10.1073/pnas.1106411108 Devaud J, Acebes A, Ramaswami M, Ferrús A. 2003. Structural and functional changes in the olfactory pathway of adult Drosophila take place at a critical age. J Neurobiol 56:13–23. doi:10.1002/neu.10215

      Devaud J-M, Acebes A, Ferrus A. 2001. Odor Exposure Causes Central Adaptation and ́Morphological Changes in Selected Olfactory Glomeruli in Drosophila. J Neurosci 21:6274–6282. doi:10.1523/jneurosci.21-16-06274.2001

      Furusawa K, Ishii K, Tsuji M, Tokumitsu N, Hasegawa E, Emoto K. 2023. Presynaptic Ube3a E3 ligase promotes synapse elimination through down-regulation of BMP signaling. Science 381:1197–1205. doi:10.1126/science.ade8978

      Mosca TJ, Luginbuhl DJ, Wang IE, Luo L. 2017. Presynaptic LRP4 promotes synapse number and function of excitatory CNS neurons. eLife 6:e27347. doi:10.7554/elife.27347

      Nelson N, Vita DJ, Broadie K. 2024. Experience-dependent glial pruning of synaptic glomeruli during the critical period. Sci Rep 14:9110. doi:10.1038/s41598-024-59942-3

      Urwyler O, Izadifar A, Vandenbogaerde S, Sachse S, Misbaer A, Schmucker D. 2019. Branch-restricted localization of phosphatase Prl-1 specifies axonal synaptogenesis domains. Science 364. doi:10.1126/science.aau9952

      Wilson RI, Laurent G. 2005. Role of GABAergic Inhibition in Shaping Odor-Evoked Spatiotemporal Patterns in the Drosophila Antennal Lobe. J Neurosci 25:9069–9079.

      doi:10.1523/jneurosci.2070-05.2005

    1. Author response:

      We thank the reviewers and the editor for the detailed and constructive feedback provided. We look forward to submitting a revised version of the manuscript that addresses their comments. We acknowledge that further clarification is needed about the novelty brought by our experimental setup and model in comparison to previous studies using different methodologies. We also acknowledge that more details can be included about the calibration steps and sensitivity of the model parameters. Below we detail the planned changes for the revised version regarding the points raised by the reviewers.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      - The authors then claim that the fragmentation of aggregates due to fluid flows occurs through erosion of small pieces. Because their experimental setup does not allow them to explicitly observe this process (for example, by watching one aggregate break into pieces), they implement an idealized model to show that the nature of the changes to the size histogram agrees with an erosion process. However, in Figure 2C there is a noticeable gap between their experiment and the prediction of their model. Additionally, in a similar experiment shown in Figure S6, the experiment cannot distinguish between an idealized erosion model and an alternative, an idealized binary fission model where aggregates split into equal halves. For these reasons, this claim is weakened.

      The two idealized models of fragment distribution, namely erosion and binary fission, lead to distinguishable final size distributions. We believe that our experiments support the hypothesis of the erosion mechanism. Please note that Figure 2 is concerned with the fragmentation of large colonies, whereas Figure 3 and associated Figure S6 are concerned with very small colonies of a few cells formed by aggregation of single-cell suspension. Indeed, for very small colonies of a few cells, our experimental results cannot distinguish between a binary fission model and an erosion model (Figure S6).

      The situation is very different for large colonies. To address the reviewer’s concern, we will add a new figure in the Supplementary Information (SI), similar to our Figure 2C, where we will compare the erosion model with a binary fission model for large colonies fragmented under ε = 5.8 m<sup>2</sup>/s<sup>3</sup>. We already did this exercise. The results in this new supplementary figure will show that the idealized binary fission model (i.e., where every fracture event produces exactly two fragments) does not capture the experimental fragmentation behaviour of large colonies. In contrast, the idealized erosion model provides a much better prediction of the experimental results, within the experimental uncertainty and variability in colony strength, and has the notable advantage of a straightforward computational implementation.

      - The fourth major result of the manuscript is displayed in Equation 8 and Figure 5, where the authors derive an expression for the ratio between the rate of increase of a colony due to aggregation vs. the rate due to cell division. They then plot this line on a phase map, altering two physical parameters (concentration and fluid turbulence) to show under what conditions aggregation vs. cell division are more important for group formation. Because these results are derived from relatively simple biophysical considerations, they have the potential to be quite powerful and useful and represent a significant conceptual advance. However, there is a region of this phase map that the authors have left untested experimentally. The lowest energy dissipation rate that the authors tested in their experiment seemed to be \dot{epsilon}~1e-2 [m^2/s^3], and the highest particle concentration they tested was 5e-4, which means that the authors never tested Zone II of their phase map. Since this seems to be an important zone for toxic blooms (i.e. the "scum formation" zone), it seems the authors have missed an important opportunity to investigate this regime of high particle concentrations and relatively weak turbulent mixing.

      We agree with the reviewer that Zone (II) of Figure 5 is of great importance to dense bloom formation under wind mixing and that this parameter range was not covered by our experiments using a cone-and-plate shear flow. The measuring range of our device was motivated by engineering applications such artificial mixing of eutrophic lakes using bubble plumes, as well as preliminary experiments which demonstrated that high levels of dissipation rate were required to achieve fragmentation. The dissipation rates of our cone-and-plate experiments capture Zones (III) and (IV) and the higher end of Zone (I). However, the cone-and-plate experiments are less suitable for the lower dissipation rates of Zone (II), as indicated by the red bars in Figure 5, due to the accumulation of colonies in stagnation points.

      Instead, in our revision we will more extensively discuss recent results published in the literature for evidence of aggregation-dominance at Zone (II). The experimental studies of Wu et al. (2019) and Wu et al. (2024) (full citation below) investigated the formation of Microcystis surface scum layers at high colony concentrations (high biovolume fraction) in wind-mixed mesocosms. These studies identified aggregation of colonies at rates faster than cell division, while the stable colony size decreased with mixing rate.  The parameter range of these studies fall within Zone II, and their experimental results agree with our model predictions. We will include in the reviewed version these references and a detailed discussion elucidating the parameter range covered in our experiments and the findings of other studies.

      Wu, X., Noss, C., Liu, L., & Lorke, A. (2019). Effects of small-scale turbulence at the air-water interface on Microcystis surface scum formation. Water Research, 167, 115091.

      Wu, H., Wu, X., Rovelli, L., & Lorke, A. (2024). Dynamics of Microcystis surface scum formation under different wind conditions: the role of hydrodynamic processes at the air-water interface. Frontiers in Plant Science, 15, 1370874.

      Other items that could use more clarity:

      - The authors rely heavily on size distributions to make the claims of their paper. Yet, how they generated those size distributions is not clearly shown in the text. Of primary concern, the authors used a correction function (Equation S1) to estimate the counts of different size classes in their image analysis pipeline. Yet, it is unclear how well this correction function actually performs, what kinds of errors it might produce, and how well it mapped to the calibration dataset the authors used to find the fit parameters.

      We agree with the reviewer that more details of the calibration processes should be included. We will include in the revised version of the SI more details of the calibration steps and direct comparison of raw and corrected histograms of the size distribution and its associated uncertainty.

      - Second, in their models they use a fractal dimension to estimate the number of cells in the group from the group radius, but the agreement between this fractal dimension fit and the data is not shown, so it is not clear how good an approximation this fractal dimension provides. This is especially important for their later derivation of the "aggregation-to-cell division" ratio (Equation 8)

      We agree with the reviewer that more details on the estimation of fractal dimension are needed. The revised version of the SI will include the estimation procedure, the number of colonies analysed, and the associated uncertainty.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review)

      - Especially the introduction seems to imply that shear force is a very important parameter controlling colony formation. However, if one looks at the results this effect is overall rather modest, especially considering the shear forces that these bacterial colonies may experience in lakes. The main conclusion seems that not shear but bacterial adhesion is the most important factor in determining colony size. As the importance of adhesion had been described elsewhere, it is not clear what this study reveals about cyanobacterial colonies that was not known before.

      As we explain in the Introduction, it is a major open question whether cyanobacterial colonies are formed mainly by cell division (after which the dividing cells remain attached to each other by the EPS layer) or mainly by the aggregation of independent cells & colonies. See for example the highly cited review of Xiao & Reynolds 2018 (our ref 17), and references therein. This question has not been resolved and is investigated in our study. We would like to emphasize several key findings that our study reveals about the mechanical behaviour of cyanobacterial colonies under flow:

      (i) Quantification of mechanical strength in cyanobacterial colonies: Our results demonstrate the high mechanical strength of cyanobacterial colonies (much higher than previously thought in references 32 and 39 of the manuscript), as evidenced by the requirement of very high shear rates to achieve fragmentation. To this end, our study highlights their resilience against naturally occurring flows and bridges the gap between theoretical assumptions about colony strength and experimentally measured mechanical properties.

      (ii) Validation of a hypothesis regarding colony formation: Using a fluid-mechanical approach, we confirm the findings of recent genetic studies (references 25 and 64 of the manuscript) which indicated that colony formation of cyanobacteria under natural conditions occurs predominantly via cell division rather than via the aggregation of individual cells. Only in very dense blooms and surface scums, colony formation by the aggregation of smaller colonies likely plays a role.

      (iii) Practical guidelines for cyanobacterial bloom control: Our findings provide valuable insights into the design of artificial mixing systems that are used to suppress surface blooms of buoyant cyanobacteria in lakes. In these lake applications, in which we have been involved, the aim of the mixing is to disperse the colonies over the water column so that they cannot form a surface layer (i.e., the mixing intensity should overcome the flotation velocity of the colonies), which takes away the competitive advantage of buoyant cyanobacteria over nonbuoyant phytoplankton species. However, it has always been an open question whether the high shear of artificial mixing would cause colony fragmentation. An understanding of changes in colony size is relevant for the design of artificial mixing, because smaller colonies have a lower flotation velocity. Our results show that the dissipation rates that are generated by artificial mixing are sufficient to prevent aggregation of large colonies, but not high enough to induce fragmentation of division-formed colonies.

      In the revised version of the manuscript, we will improve the writing to better clarify these three novel insights obtained from our study.

      - The agreement between model and experiments is impressive, but the role of the fit parameters in achieving this agreement needs to be further clarified.

      The influence of the fit parameters (namely the stickiness α1 and the pairs of colony strength parameters S1,q1,S2,q2) is discussed in the sections “DYNAMICAL CHANGES IN COLONY SIZE MODELED BY A TWO-CATEGORY DISTRIBUTION” and “MATERIALS AND METHODS.” We kept the discussion concise to maintain readability. However, we agree with the reviewer that additional details about the importance of the fit parameters and the sensitivity of the results to these parameters could be beneficial. In the revised version of the SI, we will include a more detailed discussion of the fit parameters.

      - The article may not be very accessible for readers with a biology background. Overall, the presentation of the material can be improved by better describing their new method.

      We apologize for the limited readability of the description of the experimental setup and model used. In the revised version of the manuscript, we aim to expand the description of the new methods presented here for a broader audience of biology.

    1. Author response:

      We thank all the reviewers for their insightful comments on this work.

      Response to Reviewer #1:

      We greatly appreciate your comments on the general reliability and significance of our work. We fully agree that it would have been ideal to have additional evidence related to the role of PEBP1 in HRI activation. Unfortunately, we have not been able to find phospho-HRI antibodies that work reliably. The literature seems to agree with this as a band shift using total-HRI antibodies is usually used to study HRI activation. However, with the cell lines showing the most robust effect with PEBP1 knockout or knockdown, we are yet to convince ourselves with the band shifts we see. This could be addressed by optimizing phos-tag gels although these gels can be a bit tricky with complex samples such as cell lysates which contain many phosphoproteins.

      To address the interaction between PEBP1 and eIF2alpha more rigorously we were inspired by the insights you and reviewer #2 provided. While we are unable to do further experiments, we now think it would indeed be possible to do this with either using the purified proteins and/or CETSA WB. These experiments could also provide further evidence for the role of PEBP1 phosphorylation. Although phosphorylation of PEBP1 at S153 has been implicated as being important for other functions of PEBP1, we are not sure about its role here. It may indeed have little relevance for ISR signalling.

      For the in vitro thermal shift assay, we have performed two independent experiments. While it appears that there is a slight destabilization of PEBP1 by oligomycin, the ultimate conclusion of this experiment remains incomplete as there could be alternative explanations despite the apparent simplicity of the assay due the fluorescence background by oligomycin only. We now provide a lysate based CETSA analysis which does not display the same PEBP1 stabilization as the intact cell experiment. As for the signal saturation in ATF4-luciferase reporter assay, this is a valid point.

      Response to Reviewer #2:

      We strongly agree that CETSA has a lot of potential to inform us about cellular state changes and this was indeed the starting point for this project. We apologize for being (too) brief with the explanations of the TPP/MS-CETSA approach and we have now added a bit more detail. With regard to the cut-offs used for the mass spectrometry analysis, you are absolutely right that we did not establish a stringent cut-off that would show the specificity of each drug treatment. Our take on the data was that using the p values (and ignoring the fold-changes) of individual protein changes as in Fig 1D, we can see that mitochondrial perturbations display a coordinated response. We now realize that the downside of this representation is that it obscures the largest and specific drug effects. As mentioned in the response to Reviewer #1, we now also think that it would be possible to obtain more evidence for the potential interaction between PEBP1 and eIF2alpha using CETSA-based assays.

      Response to Reviewer #3:

      Thank you for your assessment, we agree that this manuscript would have been made much stronger by having clearer mechanistic insights. As mentioned in the responses to other reviewers above, we aim to address this limitation in part by looking at the putative interaction between PEBP1 and eIF2alpha with orthogonal approaches. However, we do realize that analysis of protein-protein interactions can be notoriously challenging due to false negative and false positive findings. As with any scientific endeavor, we will keep in mind alternative explanations to the observations, which could eventually provide that cohesive model explaining how precisely PEBP1, directly or indirectly, influences ISR signalling.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      The data overall are very solid, and I would only recommend the following minor changes: 

      (1) Line 187 and line 268: there is perhaps a trend towards slightly increased ATF4-luc reporter with PEBP1-S153D, but it is not statistically significant, so I would tone down the wording here. 

      We now modified this part to "This data is consistent with the modest increase…" .

      (2) The recently discovered SIFI complex (Haakonsen 2024, https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586023-06985-7) regulates both HRI and DELE1 through bifunctional localization/degron motifs. It seems like PEBP1 also contains such a motif, which suggests a potential mechanism for enrichment near mitochondria, perhaps even in response to stress. Maybe the authors could further speculate on this in the discussion. 

      While working on the manuscript, we considered the possibility that PEBP1 function could be related to SIFI complex and concluded that here is a critical difference: while  SIFI specifically acts to turn off stress response signalling, loss of PEBP1 prevents eIF2alpha phosphorylation. We did not however consider that PEBP1 could have a localization/degron motif. Motif analysis by deepmito (busca.biocomp.unibo.it) and similar tools did not identify any conventional mitochondrial targeting signal although we acknowledge that PEBP1 has a terminal alpha-helix which was identified for SIFI complex recognition. We are not sure why you think PEBP1 contains such a motif and therefore are hesitant to speculate on this further in the manuscript.

      (3) Line 358: references 50 and 45 are identical. 

      Thank you for spotting this. Corrected now. 

      (4) Figure S1D: it looks like Oligomycin has a significant background fluorescence, which makes interpretation of these graphs difficult - do you have measurements of the compound alone that can be used to subtract this background from the data? Based on the Tm I would say it does stabilize recombinant PEBP1, and there is no quantification of the variance across the 3 replicates to say there is no difference. 

      You are right, this assay is problematic due to the background fluorescence. The measurements with oligomycin only and subtracting this background results in slightly negative values and nonsensical thermal shift curves. We now additionally show quantification from two different experiments (unfortunately we ran out of reagents for further experiments), and this quantification shows that if anything, oligomycin causes mild destabilization of recombinant PEBP1. We also used lysate CETSA assay which does not show thermal stabilization of PEBP1 by oligomycin, ruling out a direct effect. We attempted to use ferrostatin1 as a positive control as it may bind PEBP1-ALOX protein complex, and it appeared to show marginal stabilization of PEBP1. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      I have a few comments for the authors to address: 

      (1) The MS-CETSA experiment is quite briefly described and this could be expanded somewhat. Not clear if multiple biological replicates are used. Is there any cutoff in data analysis based on fold change size (which correlated to the significance of cellular effects), etc? As expected from only one early timepoint (see eg PMID: 38328090), there appear to be a limited number of significant shifts over the background (as judged from Figure S1A). In the Excel result file, however (if I read it right) there are large numbers of proteins that are assigned as stabilized or destabilized. This might be to mark the direction of potential shifts, but considering that most of these are likely not hits, this labeling could give a false impression. Could be good to revisit this and have a column for what could be considered significant hits, where a fold change cutoff could help in selecting the most biologically relevant hits. This would allow Figure 1D to be made crisper when it likely dramatically overestimates the overlap between significant CETSA shifts for these drugs.  

      Fair point, while we focused more on PEBP1, it is important to have sufficient description of the methods. We used duplicate samples for the MS, which is probably the most important point which was absent from the original submission as is now added to the methods. We also added slightly more description on the data analysis. While the AID method does not explicitly use log2 fold changes, it does consider the relative abundance of proteins under different temperature fractions. Since the Tm (melting temperature) for each protein can be at any temperature, we felt that if would be complicated to compare fractions where the protein stability is changed the most and even more so if we consider both significance and log2FC. Therefore, we used this multivariate approach which indicates the proteins with most likely changes across the range of temperatures. To acknowledge that most of the statistically significant changes are not the much over the background as you correctly pointed out, we now add to the main text that “However, most of these changes are relatively small. To focus our analysis on the most significant and biologically relevant changes…” We also agree that it may be confusing that the AID output reports de/stabilization direction for all proteins. In general, we are not big fans of cutoffs as these are always arbitrary, but with multivariate p value of 0.1 it becomes clear that there are only a relatively small number of hits with larger changes. We have now added to the guide in the data sheet that "Primarily, use the adjusted p value of the log10 Multivariate normal pvalue for selecting the overall statistically significant hits (p<0.05 equals  -1.30 or smaller; p<0.01 equals  -2 or smaller)". We have also added to the guide part of the table that “Note that this prediction does not consider whether the change is significant or not, it only shows the direction of change”

      (2) On page 4 the authors state "We reasoned that thermal stability of proteins might be particularly interesting in the context of mitochondrial metabolism as temperature-sensitive fluorescent probes suggest that mitochondrial temperature in metabolically active cells is close to 50{degree sign}C". I don't see the relevance of this statement as an argument for using TPP/CETSA. When this is also not further addressed in the work, it could be deleted.

      Deleted. We agree, while this is an interesting point, it is not that relevant in this paper. 

      (3) To exclude direct drug binding to PEBP1, a thermofluor experiment is performed (Fig S1D). However, the experiment gives a high background at the lower temperatures and it could be argued that this is due to the flouroprobe binding to a hydrophobic pocket of the protein, and that oligomycin at higher concentrations competes with this binding, attenuating fluorescence. These are complex experiments and there could be other explanations, but the authors should address this. An alternative means to provide support for non-binding would be a lysate CETSA experiment, with very short (1-3 minutes) drug exposure before heating. This would typically give a shift when the protein is indicated to be CETSA responsive as in this case. 

      Agree. However, we don't have good means to perform the thermofluor experiments to rule out alternative explanations. What we can say is (as discussed above for reviewer #1, point 4) that quantification from two different experiments shows that oligomycin is does not thermally stabilizing recombinant PEBP1. To complement this conclusion, we used lysate CETSA assay which does not show thermal stabilization of PEBP1 by oligomycin. In this assay we attempted to use ferrostatin1 as a positive control as it may bind PEBP1-ALOX protein complex, and it appeared to show marginal stabilization of PEBP1. But since we lack a robust positive control for these assays, some doubt will inevitably remain.

      (4) The authors appear to have missed that there is already a MS-CETSA study in the literature on oligomycin, from Sun et al (PMID: 30925293). Although this data is from a different cell line and at a slightly longer drug treatment and is primarily used to access intracellular effects of decreased ATP levels induced by oligomycin, the authors should refer to this data and maybe address similarities if any.  

      Apologies for the oversight, the oligomycin data from this paper eluded us at it was mainly presented in the supplementary data. We compared the two datasets and find found some overlap despite the differences in the experimental details. Both datasets share translational components (e.g. EIF6 and ribosomal proteins), but most notably our other top hit BANF1 which we mentioned in the main text was also identified by Sun et al. We have updated the manuscript text as "Other proteins affected by oligomycin included BANF1, which binds DNA in an ATP dependent manner [16], and has also identified as an oligomycin stabilized protein in a previous MS-CETA experiment [23]", citing the Sun et al paper.   

      (5) The confirmation of protein-protein interaction is notoriously prone to false positives. The authors need to use overexpression and a sensitive reporter to get positive data but collect additional data using mutants which provide further support. Typically, this would be enough to confirm an interaction in the literature, although some doubt easily lingers. When the authors already have a stringent in-cell interaction assay for PEBP1 in the CETSA thermal shift, it would be very elegant to also apply the CETSA WB assay to the overexpressed constructs and demonstrate differences in the response of oligomycin, including the mutants. I am not sure this is feasible but it should be straightforward to test. 

      This is a very good suggestion. Unfortunately, due to the time constraints of the graduate students (who must write up their thesis very soon), we are not able to perform and repeat such experiments to the level of confidence that we would like.

      (6) At places the story could be hard to follow, partly due to the frequent introduction of new compounds, with not always well-stated rationale. It could be useful to have a table also in the main manuscript with all the compounds used, with the rationale for their use stated. Although some of the cellular pathways addressed are shown in miniatures in figures, it could be useful to have an introduction figure for the known ISR pathways, at least in the supplement. There are also a number of typos to correct. 

      We agree that there are many compounds used. We have attempted to clarify their use by adding this information into the table of used compounds in the methods and adding an overall schematic to Fig S1G and a note on line 132 "(see Figure 1-figure supplement 1G for summary of drugs used to target PEBP1 and ISR in this manuscript). We have also attempted to remove typos as far as possible.

      (7) EIF2a phosphorylation in S1E does not appear to be more significant for Sodium Arsenite argued to be a positive control, than CCCP, which is argued to be negative. Maybe enough with one positive control in this figure? 

      This experiment was used as a justification for our 30 min time point for the proteomics. By showing the 30 min and 4 h time points as Fig 1G and Figure 1-figure supplement 1F, our point was to demonstrate that the kinetics of phosphorylation and dephosphorylation are relevant. As you correctly pointed out, the stress response induced by sodium arsenite, but also tunicamycin is already attenuated at the 4h time point. We prefer to keep all samples to facilitate comparisons.

      (8) Page 7 reference to Figure S2H, which doesn't exist. Should be S3H.  

      Apologies for the mistake, now corrected to Figure 2-figure supplement 1B.

      (9) Finally, although the TPP labeling of the method is used widely in the literature this is CETSA with MS detection and MS-CETSA is a better term. This is about thermal shifts of individual proteins which is a very well-established biophysical concept. In contrast, the term Thermal Proteome Profiling does not relate to any biophysical concept, or real cell biology concept, as far as I can see, and is a partly misguided term. 

      We changed the term TPP into MS-CETSA, but also include the term TPP in the introduction to facilitate finding this paper by people using the TPP term.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      Major Issues 

      (1) The one major issue of this work is the lack of a mechanism showing precisely how PEBP1 amplifies the mitochondrial integrated stress response. The work, as it is described, presents data suggesting PEBP1's role in the ISR but fails to present a more conclusive mechanism. The idea of mitochondrial stress causing PEBP1 to bind to eIF2a, amplifying ISR is somewhat vague. Thus, the lack of a more defined model considerably weakens the argument, as the data is largely corollary, showing KO and modulation of PEBP1 definitely has a unique effect on the ISR, however, it is not conclusive proof of what the authors claim. While KO of PEBP1 diminishes the phosphorylation of eIF2a, taken together with the binding to eIF2a, different pathways could be simultaneously activated, and it seems premature to surmise that PEBP1 is specific to mitochondrial stress. Could PEBP1 be reacting to decreased ATP? Release of a protein from the mitochondria in response to stress? Is PEBP1's primary role as a modulator of the ISR, or does it have a role in non-stress-related translation? A cohesive model would tie together these separate indirect findings and constitute a considerable discovery for the ISR field, and the mitochondrial stress field.  

      Thank you for your assessment, we agree that this manuscript would have been much stronger by having clearer mechanistic insights. As with any scientific endeavor, we will keep in mind alternative explanations to the observations, which could eventually provide that cohesive model explaining how precisely PEBP1, directly or indirectly, influences ISR signalling.

      (2) The data relies on the initial identification of PEBP1 thermal stabilization concomitant with mitochondrial ISR induction post-treatment of several small molecules. However, the experiment was performed using a single timepoint of 30 minutes. There was no specific rationale for the choice of this time point for the thermal proteome profiling. 

      The reasoning for this was explicitly stated:  "We reasoned that treating intact cells with the drugs for only 30 min would allow us to observe rapid and direct effects related to metabolic flux and/or signaling related to mitochondrial dysfunction in the absence of major changes in protein expression levels.”

      Minor Issues 

      (1) In Lines 163-166 the authors state "The cells from Pebp1 KO animals displayed reduced expression of common ISR genes (Figure 2F), despite upregulation of unfolded protein response genes Ern1 (Ire1α) and Atf6 genes. This gene expression data therefore suggests that Pebp1 knockout in vivo suppresses induction of the ISR". This statement should be reassessed. While an arm of the UPR does stimulate ISR, this arm is controlled by PERK, and canonically IRE1 and ATF6 do not typically activate the ISR, thus their upregulation is likely unrelated to ISR activation and does not contribute the evidence necessary for this statement. 

      Apologies for the confusion, we aimed to highlight that as there is an increase in the two UPR arms, it is more likely that ISR instead of UPR is reduced. We have now changed the statement to the following:

      "The cells from Pebp1 PEBP1 KO animals displayed reduced expression of common ISR genes (Figure 2F), while there was mild upregulation of the unfolded protein response genes Ern1 (Ire1α) and Atf6 genes. This gene expression data therefore suggests that the reduced expression of common ISR genes is less likely to be mediated by changes in PERK, the third UPR arm, and more likely due to suppression of ISR by Pebp1 knockout in vivo."

      (2) In Lines 169 and 170 the authors state "Western blotting indicated reduced phosphorylation of eIF2α in RPE1 cells lacking PEBP1, suggesting that PEBP1 is involved in regulating ISR signaling between mitochondria and eIF2α". This conclusion is not supported by evidence. A number of pathways could be activated in these knockout cells, and simply observing an increase in p-eIF2α after knocking out PEBP1 does not constitute an interaction, as correlation doesn't mean causation. This KO could indirectly affect the ISR, with PEBP1 having no role in the ISR. While taken together there is enough circumstantial evidence in the manuscript to suggest a role for PEBP1 in the ISR, statements such as these have to be revised so as not to overreach the conclusions that can be achieved from the data, especially with no discernible mechanism.  

      We have now revised this statement by removing the conclusion and stating only the observation:  "Western blotting indicated reduced phosphorylation of eIF2α in RPE1 cells lacking PEBP1 (Fig. 3A)."

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      comprehensiveness and rigor of the study are notable. Rarely have I reviewed a manuscript reporting the results of so many orthogonal experiments, all of which support the authors' hypotheses, and of so many excellent controls.” Reviewer 2 commented: “They have elegantly demonstrated how some mutants alter each step of processing. Together with FLIM experiments, this study provides additional evidence to support their 'stalled complex hypotheses'….This is a beautiful biochemical work. The approach is comprehensive.”

      Below we respond to the relatively minor concerns of Reviewer 2, which may be included with the first version of the Reviewed Preprint.

      Reviewer 2:

      (1) It appears that the purified γ-secretase complex generates the same amount of Aβ40 and Aβ42, which is quite different in cellular and biochemical studies. Is there any explanation for this?  

      Roughly equal production of Aβ40 and Aβ42 is a phenomenon seen with purified enzyme assays, and the reason for this has not been identified. However, we suggest that what is meaningful in our studies is the relative difference between the effects of FAD-mutant vs. WT PSEN1 on each proteolytic processing step. All FAD mutations are deficient in multiple cleavage steps in γsecretase processing of APP substrate, and these deficiencies correlate with stabilization of E-S complexes.

      (2) It has been reported the Aβ production lines from Aβ49 and Aβ48 can be crossed with various combinations (PMID: 23291095 and PMID: 38843321). How does the production line crossing impact the interpretation of this work?  

      In the cited reports, such crossover was observed when using synthetic Aβ intermediates as substrate. In PMID 2391095 (Okochi M et al, Cell Rep, 2013), Aβ43 is primarily converted to Aβ40, but also to some extent to Aβ38. In PMID: 38843321 (Guo X et al, Science, 2024), Aβ48 is ultimately converted to Aβ42, but also to a minor degree to Aβ40. We have likewise reported such product line “crossover” with synthetic Aβ intermediates (PMID: 25239621; Fernandez MA et al, JBC, 2014). However, when using APP C99-based substrate, we did not detect any noncanonical tri- and tetrapeptide co-products of Aβ trimming events in the LC-MS/MS analyses (PMID: 33450230; Devkota S et al, JBC, 2021). In the original report on identification of the small peptide coproducts for C99 processing by γ-secretase using LC-MS/MS (PMID: 19828817; Takami M et al, J Neurosci, 2009), only very low levels of noncanonical peptides were observed. In the present study, we did not search for such noncanonical trimming coproducts, so we cannot rule out some degree of product line crossover.

      (3) In Figure 5, did the authors look at the protein levels of PS1 mutations and C99-720, as well as secreted Aβ species? Do the different amounts of PS1 full-length and PS1-NTF/CTF influence FILM results?  

      FLIM results depend on the degree that C99 and long Aβ intermediates are bound to γ-secretase compared to unbound C99 and Aβ. The 6E10-Alexa 488 lifetime is significantly decreased by FAD mutations compared to WT PSEN1 (Fig. 5). However, the observed decrease in lifetime with the PSEN1 FAD mutants might also be due to lower levels of C99-720 expression or higher levels of PSEN1 CTF (i.e., mature γ-secretase complexes). We checked the C99-720 fluorescence intensities in the FLIM experiments and found that C99-720 intensities are not significantly different between cells transfected with WT and those with FAD PSEN1. Furthermore, Western blot analysis shows that levels of C99-720 are not significantly low and those of PSEN1 CTF are not high in FAD PSEN1 compared to WT PSEN1 expressing cells. Although PSEN1 CTF levels trend low for PSEN1 F386S, this mutant resulted in decreased FLIM only in Aβ-rich regions. Thus, the reduced FLIM apparently reflects effects of FAD mutation on E-S complex stability. Levels of full-length PSEN1 were also determined and found not to correlated with FLIM effects, although full-length PSEN1 represents protein not incorporated into full active γ-secretase complexes and therefore does not interact with C99-720.

      (4) It is interesting that both Aβ40 and Aβ42 Elisa kits detect Aβ43. Have the authors tested other kits in the market? It might change the interpretation of some published work.  

      We have not tested other ELISA kits. Considering our findings, it would be a good idea for other investigators to test whatever ELISAs they use for specificity vis-à-vis Aβ43.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Comment 1: In terms of the biological significance of this interaction, it would be good to examine (via co-immunoprecipitation) whether the CEP89/NCS-1/C3ORF14 interaction takes place upon serum starvation. Does the complex change? 

      NCS1 centriolar localization requires CEP89 as no NCS1 localization was observed in CEP89 knockout cells (Figure 2L; Figure 2-figure supplement 2B). Both CEP89 and NCS1 centriolar localization were observed (Figure 2C; Figure 1D of the PMID: 36711481) in cells grown in serum containing media, although their localization was further enhanced in serum starved cells. From these results, we predict that CEP89 and NCS1 can interact and colocalize in both serum-fed and serum-depleted condition. We think it may not be easy to assess the change in interaction with the co-immunoprecipitation assay, as interactions occur in a test tube, which may not reflect the binding condition inside the cells.

      Comment 2: Also, for the subdistal appendage localization of NCS-1 and C3ORF14, would this also change upon serum starvation? 

      We agree that it would be interesting to see whether the subdistal appendage localization changes upon serum starvation, as NCS1 may capture the ciliary vesicle at the subdistal appendages as we discussed. However, the loss of the subdistal appendage protein, CEP128, blocks subdistal appendage localization of CEP89 [PMID: 32242819] without affecting cilium formation [PMID: 27818179]. This suggests that the subdistal appendage localization of NCS1 or C3ORF14 is likely dispensable for cilium formation.

      Comment 3: For the ciliation results and the recruitment of IFT88 in CEP89 knockout cell lines, this contradicts previous work from Tanos et al (PMID: 23348840), as well as Hou et al (PMID: 36669498). A parallel comparison using siRNA, a transient knockout system, or a degron system would help understand this. A similar point goes for Figure 4, where the effect on ciliogenesis is minimal in knockout cells, but acute siRNA has been shown to have a stronger phenotype. 

      Hou et al. [PMID: 36669498] investigated the role of distal appendage proteins, CEP164, CEP89, and FBF1 in the ciliated chordotonal organ of Drosophila melanogaster by generating knockout Drosophila strains. The results were markedly different from what was observed in mammalian cells. Notably, CEP164 is not required for cilium formation, and CEP89 is required for FBF1 localization in the animal. CEP89 was required for cilium formation in the cells in the ciliated chordotonal organ, of which cilium formation is dependent on IFT machinery. They did not show if IFT centriolar recruitment is affected in the CEP89 mutant cells. These differences likely reflect the divergence of the organization of distal appendage during evolution.

      The ciliation phenotype of our CEP89 knockout cells are milder than what was shown in Tanos et al [PMID: 23348840], but largely consistent with the results from Bornens group, which used siRNA to deplete CEP89 [PMID: 23789104]. Besides, NCS1 knockout cells showed very similar phenotype to the CEP89 knockout cells, and relatively acute deletion of NCS1 (14 days after infection of the lenti-virus containing sgNCS1 without single-cell cloning) displayed an almost identical ciliation defect (Figure 4B-C). Thus, we believe CEP89 is only partially required for cilium formation in RPE-hTERT cells and that the differences are more technical than definitive.

      Comment 4: An elegant phenotype rescue is shown in Figure 5. An interesting question would be, how does this mutant and/or the myristoylation affect the recruitment of C3ORF14? 

      NCS1 is not required for the localization of C3ORF14 (Figure 2M; Figure 2- figure supplement 2C), so we can assume that the myristoylation defective mutant does not affect C3ORF14 recruitment.

      Comment 5: For the EF-hand mutants, it would be good to use control mutants, from known Ca2+ binding proteins as a control for the experiment shown. 

      In the Figure 5-figure supplement 1A-C, we generated a series of EF-hand mutant of NCS1 to see if the calcium binding affects the CEP89 interaction, NCS1 localization, and cilium formation. NCS1 is only protein among the calcium binding NCS family proteins that was found as a positive hit in the mass spec data of CEP89 tandem affinity purification. Therefore, we cannot use other NCS1 family proteins as a control for CEP89 binding, NCS1 localization, and cilium formation.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Using a knock-out mutant strain, the authors tried to decipher the role of the last gene in the mycofactocin operon, mftG. They found that MftG was essential for growth in the presence of ethanol as the sole carbon source, but not for the metabolism of ethanol, evidenced by the equal production of acetaldehyde in the mutant and wild type strains when grown with ethanol (Fig 3). The phenotypic characterization of ΔmftG cells revealed a growth-arrest phenotype in ethanol, reminiscent of starvation conditions (Fig 4). Investigation of cofactor metabolism revealed that MftG was not required to maintain redox balance via NADH/NAD+, but was important for energy production (ATP) in ethanol. Since mycobacteria cannot grow via substrate-level phosphorylation alone, this pointed to a role of MftG in respiration during ethanol metabolism. The accumulation of reduced mycofactocin points to impaired cofactor cycling in the absence of MftG, which would impact the availability of reducing equivalents to feed into the electron transport chain for respiration (Fig 5). This was confirmed when looking at oxygen consumption in membrane preparations from the mutant and would type strains with reduced mycofactocin electron donors (Fig 7). The transcriptional analysis supported the starvation phenotype, as well as perturbations in energy metabolism, and may be beneficial if described prior to respiratory activity data.

      The data and conclusions support the role of MftG in ethanol metabolism.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation of our manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The work by Graca et al. describes a GMC flavoprotein dehydrogenase (MftG) in the ethanol metabolism of mycobacteria and provides evidence that it shuttles electrons from the mycofactocin redox cofactor to the electron transport chain.

      Strengths:

      Overall, this study is compelling, exceptionally well designed and thoroughly conducted. An impressively diverse set of different experimental approaches is combined to pin down the role of this enzyme and scrutinize the effects of its presence or absence in mycobacteria cells growing on ethanol and other substrates. Other strengths of this work are the clear writing style and stellar data presentation in the figures, which makes it easy also for non-experts to follow the logic of the paper. Overall, this work therefore closes an important gap in our understanding of ethanol oxidation in mycobacteria, with possible implications for the future treatment of bacterial infections.

      Weaknesses:

      I see no major weaknesses of this work, which in my opinion leaves no doubt about the role of MftG.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation of our manuscript.

      Reviewer #4 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Graça et al. explores the role of MftG in the ethanol metabolism of mycobacteria. The authors hypothesise that MftG functions as a mycofactocin dehydrogenase, regenerating mycofactocin by shuttling electrons to the respiratory chain of mycobacteria. Although the study primarily uses M. smegmatis as a model microorganism, the findings have more general implications for understanding mycobacterial metabolism. Identifying the specific partner to which MftG transfers its electrons within the respiratory chain of mycobacteria would be an important next step, as pointed out by the authors.

      Strengths:

      The authors have used a wide range of tools to support their hypothesis, including co-occurrence analyses, gene knockout and complementation experiments, as well as biochemical assays and transcriptomics studies.

      An interesting observation that the mftG deletion mutant grown on ethanol as the sole carbon source exhibited a growth defect resembling a starvation phenotype.

      MftG was shown to catalyse the electron transfer from mycofactocinol to components of the respiratory chain, highlighting the flexibility and complexity of mycobacterial redox metabolism.

      Weaknesses:

      Could the authors elaborate more on the differences between the WT strains in Fig. 3C and 3E? in Fig. 3C, the ethanol concentration for the WT strain is similar to that of WT-mftG and ∆mftG-mftG, whereas the acetate concentration in thw WT strain differs significantly from the other two strains. How this observation relates to ethanol oxidation, as indicated on page 12.

      This is a good question, and we agree with the reviewer that the sum of processes leading to the experimental observations shown in Figure 3 are not completely understood. For instance, when looking at ethanol concentrations, evaporation is a dominating effect and the situation is furthermore confounded by the fact that the rate of ethanol evaporation appears to be inversely correlated to the optical density of the samples (see Figure 3E and compare media control as well as the samples of DmftG and DmftG at OD<sub>600</sub> = 1). Additionally, the growth rate and thus the OD<sub>600</sub> of all strains monitored are different at each time point, thus further complicating the analysis. This is why we assume that the rate of ethanol oxidation is mirrored more clearly by acetate formation, at least in the early phase before 48 h (Figure 3E),i.e., before acetate consumption becomes dominant in DmftG-mftG and WT-mftG. Here, we see that the rate of acetate formation is zero for media controls, low for DmftG, but high for WT as well as DmftG-mftG and WT-mftG. The latter two strains also showed an earlier starting point of growth as well as acetate formation and the following phase of acetate depletion.

      All of these observations are in line with our general statement, i.d., “Parallel to the accelerated and enhanced growth described above (Figure 3A), the overexpression strains displayed higher rates of ethanol consumption as well as an earlier onset of acetate overflow metabolism and acetate consumption (Figure 3D).” We are still convinced that this summary describes the findings well and avoids unnecessary speculation.

      The authors conclude from their functional assays that MftG catalyses single-turnover reactions, likely using FAD present in the active site as an electron acceptor. While this is plausible, the current experimental set up doesn't fully support this conclusions, and the language around this claim should be softened.

      This is a fair point. We revised our claim accordingly. In particular, we changed:

      Page 28: we added “possibly”

      Page 28 we changed “single-turnover reactions” to “reactions reminiscent of a single-turnover process”.

      The authors suggest in the manuscript that the quinone pool (page 24) may act as the electron acceptor from mycofactocinol, but later in the discussion section (page 30) they propose cytochromes as the potential recipients. If the authors consider both possibilities valid, I suggest discussing both options in the manuscript.

      This is true. However, no change to the manuscript is necessary, since both options were discussed on page 30.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The authors addressing some of the original recommendations is appreciated e.g. title change. Other recommendations that were not adequately addressed would mostly improve the clarity and help comprehension for the reader, but they are at the author's discretion.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Abstract: "Here, we show that MftG enzymes strictly require mft biosynthetic genes and are found in 75% of organisms harboring these genes". I read this sentence several times and I am still somewhat confused and not sure what exactly is meant here. I suggest to rephrase, e.g., to "Here, we show that in 75% of all organisms that harbour the mft biosynthetic genes, MftG enzymes are also encoded and functionally associated with these genes" (if that was meant; also the abbreviation mft should be introduced in the abstract or otherwise the full name be used).

      We thank the reviewer for the good hint. We changed the sentence to “Here, we show that MftG enzymes are almost exclusively found in genomes containing mycofactocin biosynthetic genes and are present in 75% of organisms harboring these genes”.

      p.3, 2nd paragraph: "Although the role of MFT in alcohol metabolism is well established, further biological roles of mycofactocin appear to exist." Mycofactocin is once written as MFN and once in full length, which is slightly confusing. Consider rephrasing, e.g., to "...further biological roles of this cofactor appear to exist".

      Thank you, we adopted the suggested change.

      Fig. 1: Consider adding MftG in brackets after "mycofactocin dehydrogenase" in panel B.

      Good suggestion. We added (MftG) to the figure.

      Fig. 3: Legend should be corrected. The color of the signs should be teal diamond for "M. smegmatis double presence of the mftG gene" and orange upward facing triangle for "Medium with 10 g L-1 of ethanol without bacterial inoculation". Aside from the coloration, the order should ideally also be identical to the one shown in the upper right part.

      Thank you for the valuable hint! We corrected the legend and unified the legends in the figure caption and figure.

      p.20 : It is not exactly clear to me why "semipurified cell-free extracts from M. smegmatis ∆mftG-mftGHis6 " were used here rather than the purified enzyme. Was the purification by HisTrap columns not feasible or was the protein unstable when fully purified? In any case, it would help the reader to quickly state the reason in this section.

      Indeed, the problem with M. smegmatis as an expression host was a combination of low protein yield and poor binding to Ni-NTA columns. In E. coli, poor expression, low solubility or poor binding was the issue. Unfortunately, the usage of other affinity tags resulted in either poor expression or inactive protein. We have shortly mentioned the major issues on page 21 and prefer not to focus on failed attempts too much.

      p. 21: "We, therefore, concluded that MftG can indeed interact with mycofactocins as electron donors but might require complex electron acceptors, for instance, proteins present in the respiratory chain." I agree. For the future it might be worthwhile to determine the redox potential of MftG, which could provide hints on the natural electron acceptor.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We will consider this question in our future work.

      p. 23: "In M. smegmatis, cyanide is a known inhibitor of the cytochrome bc/aa3 but not of cytochrome bd (34), therefore, the decrease of oxygen consumption when MFTs were added to the membrane fractions in combination with KCN (Figure 7), revealed that MFT-induced oxygen consumption is indeed linked to mycobacterial respiration." It might be a good idea to quickly recapitulate the functions of these cytochromes here. Also, I think it should read "bc1aa3" (also correct in legend of Fig. 8 that says "bcc-aa3").

      Thank you for the good observation. We changed all instances to the correct designation (bc1-aa3).

      Reviewer #4 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Abstract: revise the wording "MftG enzymes strictly require mft biosynthetic genes". It should be either mftG gene with the mft biosynthetic genes or MftG enzyme with the Mft biosynthetic proteins. I also suggest replacing "require" with a more appropriate term.

      This was taken care of. See above.

      Page 3, end of the first paragraph; does the alcohol dehydrogenase refer to Mno/Mdo?

      Partially, yes, but also to other alcohol dehydrogenases.

      Page 4, radical SAM; define upon first use

      Good, point, we changed “radical SAM” to radical S-adenosyl methionine (rSAM)

      Page 6; Rossman fold refers to the fold and not only the FAD binding pocket.

      Good point. We deleted “(Rossman fold)”

      Page 11; not exactly sure what this means "the growth curve of the complemented strain, which could be dysregulated in mftG expression"

      By “dysregulated” expression, we mean that the expression of mftG could be higher or lower than in the WT and could follow different regulatory signals than in the wild type. Since this phenomenon is not well understood, we would like to avoid speculative discussions.

      Page 11; Figures 2E and 2C should be 3E and 3C. Likewise on page 12 Figure 2D.

      Thank you very much for the valuable hint. We corrected the figure numbers as suggested.

      Page 12; the last Figure 3D in the page should be 3E?

      Yes, good catch, we corrected the Figure number.

      Page 17, KO; define upon first use.

      Good suggestion, we changed both instances of “KO” to “knockout”

      Page 24; revise: "for instance. For example"

      We deleted “for instance”.

      Page 26; change 6.506 to 6,506

      Corrected.

      Page 23; "In M. smegmatis, cyanide is a known inhibitor ..." is too long and not easy to understand/follow.

      Good suggestion. We simplified the sentence to “Therefore, the decrease of oxygen consumption in the presence of KCN (Figure 7) revealed…”

      Page 29; "single-turnover reactions could be observed". There are no experiments to support this statement, except the results shown in Figure 7F. I suggest softening the language, as it has been done on page 21. To claim single-turnover, a proper kinetic analysis would be necessary, which is not included in the current manuscript.

      This is true and has been taken care of. See above.

      Figure 1; Indicate mycofactocin dehydrogenase as MftG

      Done.

      Figure 5A; what is the significance of comparing ∆mftG glucose with WT ethanol?

      We agree, that, although the difference of the two columns is significant, this does not have any relevant meaning. Therefore, we removed the bracket with p-value in Panel A.

      Make HdB-Tyl/HdB-tyloxapol usage consistent throughout the document. Likewise, re the usage of mycobacteria/Mycobacteria/Mycobacteria

      Thank you for the valuable hint, we unified the usage throughout the document

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1:

      Summary:

      Beyond what is stated in the title of this paper, not much needs to be summarized. eIF2A in HeLa cells promotes translation initiation of neither the main ORFs nor short uORFs under any of the conditions tested.

      Strengths:

      Very comprehensive, in fact, given the huge amount of purely negative data, an admirably comprehensive and well-executed analysis of the factor of interest.

      Weaknesses:

      The study is limited to the HeLa cell line, focusing primarily on KO of eIF2A and neglecting the opposite scenario, higher eIF2A expression which could potentially result in an increase in non-canonical initiation events.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation. As suggested by the reviewer in the detailed recommendations, we will clarify in the title, abstract and text that our conclusions are limited to HeLa cells. Furthermore, as suggested we will test the effect of eIF2A overexpression on the luciferase reporter constructs, and will upload a revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2:

      Summary

      Roiuk et al describe a work in which they have investigated the role of eIF2A in translation initiation in mammals without much success. Thus, the manuscript focuses on negative results. Further, the results, while original, are generally not novel, but confirmatory, since related claims have been made before independently in different systems with Haikwad et al study recently published in eLife being the most relevant.

      Despite this, we find this work highly important. This is because of a massive wealth of unreliable information and speculations regarding eIF2A role in translation arising from series of artifacts that began at the moment of eIF2A discovery. This, in combination with its misfortunate naming (eIF2A is often mixed up with alpha subunit of eIF2, eIF2S1) has generated a widespread confusion among researchers who are not experts in eukaryotic translation initiation. Given this, it is not only justifiable but critical to make independent efforts to clear up this confusion and I very much appreciate the authors' efforts in this regard.

      Strengths

      The experimental investigation described in this manuscript is thorough, appropriate and convincing.

      Weaknesses

      However, we are not entirely satisfied with the presentation of this work which we think should be improved.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation. We will revise the manuscript according to the reviewer's suggestions made in the detailed recommendations.

      Reviewer #3:

      Summary:

      This is a valuable study providing solid evidence that the putative non-canonical initiation factor eIF2A has little or no role in the translation of any expressed mRNAs in cultured human (primarily HeLa) cells. Previous studies have implicated eIF2A in GTP-independent recruitment of initiator tRNA to the small (40S) ribosomal subunit, a function analogous to canonical initiation factor eIF2, and in supporting initiation on mRNAs that do not require scanning to select the AUG codon or that contain near-cognate start codons, especially upstream ORFs with non-AUG start codons, and may use the cognate elongator tRNA for initiation. Moreover, the detected functions for eIF2A were limited to, or enhanced by, stress conditions where canonical eIF2 is phosphorylated and inactivated, suggesting that eIF2A provides a back-up function for eIF2 in such stress conditions. CRISPR gene editing was used to construct two different knock-out cell lines that were compared to the parental cell line in a large battery of assays for bulk or gene-specific translation in both unstressed conditions and when cells were treated with inhibitors that induce eIF2 phosphorylation. None of these assays identified any effects of eIF2A KO on translation in unstressed or stressed cells, indicating little or no role for eIF2A as a back-up to eIF2 and in translation initiation at near-cognate start codons, in these cultured cells.

      The study is very thorough and generally well executed, examining bulk translation by puromycin labeling and polysome analysis and translational efficiencies of all expressed mRNAs by ribosome profiling, with extensive utilization of reporters equipped with the 5'UTRs of many different native transcripts to follow up on the limited number of genes whose transcripts showed significant differences in translational efficiencies (TEs) in the profiling experiments. They also looked for differences in translation of uORFs in the profiling data and examined reporters of uORF-containing mRNAs known to be translationally regulated by their uORFs in response to stress, going so far as to monitor peptide production from a uORF itself. The high precision and reproducibility of the replicate measurements instil strong confidence that the myriad of negative results they obtained reflects the lack of eIF2A function in these cells rather than data that would be too noisy to detect small effects on the eIF2A mutations. They also tested and found no evidence for a recent claim that eIF2A localizes to the cytoplasm in stress and exerts a global inhibition of translation. Given the numerous papers that have been published reporting functions of eIF2A in specific and general translational control, this study is important in providing abundant, high-quality data to the contrary, at least in these cultured cells.

      Strengths:

      The paper employed two CRISPR knock-out cell lines and subjected them to a combination of high-quality ribosome profiling experiments, interrogating both main coding sequences and uORFs throughout the translatome, which was complemented by extensive reporter analysis, and cell imaging in cells both unstressed and subjected to conditions of eIF2 phosphorylation, all in an effort to test previous conclusions about eIF2A functioning as an alternative to eIF2.

      Weaknesses:

      There is some question about whether their induction of eIF2 phosphorylation using tunicamycin was extensive enough to state forcefully that eIF2A has little or no role in the translatome when eIF2 function is strongly impaired. Also, similar conclusions regarding the minimal role of eIF2A were reached previously for a different human cell line from a study that also enlisted ribosome profiling under conditions of extensive eIF2 phosphorylation; although that study lacked the extensive use of reporters to confirm or refute the identification by ribosome profiling of a small group of mRNAs regulated by eIF2A during stress.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation. We will revise the manuscript according to the recommendations made in the detailed recommendations. Regarding the two points mentioned here:

      (1) the reason eIF2alpha phosphorylation does not increase appreciably is because unfortunately the antibody is very poor. The fact that the Integrated Stress Response (ISR) is induced by our treatment can be seen, for instance, by the fact that ATF4 protein levels increase strongly (in the very same samples where eIF2alpha phosphorylation does not increase much, in Suppl. Fig. 5E). We will strengthen the conclusion that the ISR is indeed activated with additional experiments/data as suggested by the reviewer.

      (2) We agree that our results are in line with results from the previous study mentioned by the reviewer, so we will revise the manuscript to mention this other study more extensively in the discussion.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Review:

      The overall goal of this manuscript is to understand how Notch signaling is activated in specific regions of the endocardium, including the OFT and AVC, that undergo EMT to form the endocardial cushions. Using dofetilide to transiently block circulation in E9.5 mice, the authors show that Notch receptor cleavage still occurs in the valve-forming regions due to mechanical sheer stress as Notch ligand expression and oxygen levels are unaffected. The authors go on to show that changes in lipid membrane structure activate mTOR signaling, which causes phosphorylation of PKC and Notch receptor cleavage.

      The strengths of the manuscript include the dual pharmacological and genetic approaches to block blood flow in the mouse, the inclusion of many controls including those for hypoxia, the quality of the imaging, and the clarity of the text. However, several weaknesses were noted surrounding the main claims where the supporting data are incomplete.

      PKC - Notch1 activation:

      (1) Does deletion of Prkce and Prkch affect blood flow, and if so, might that be suppressing Notch1 activation indirectly?

      To address this concern, we performed echocardiography of Prkce<sup>+/-</sup>;Prkch<sup>+/-</sup>, Prkce<sup>-/-</sup>;Prkch<sup>+/-</sup>, and Prkce<sup>+/-</sup>;Prkch<sup>-/-</sup> mouse hearts (Figure 3-supplement figure 2D), showing no significant effect in heartbeat and blood flow. (Line 308)

      (2) It would be helpful to visualize the expression of prkce and prkch by in situ hybridization in E9.5 embryos.

      We now added immunofluorescence staining results for both PKCE and PKCH as shown in Figure 3-supplement figure 2B. In E9.5 embryonic heart, PKCH is mainly expressed in the endocardium overlying AV canal and the base of trabeculae, overlapping with the expression pattern of NICD and pPKC<sup>Ser660</sup>. PKCE is expressed in both endocardium and myocardium. In the endocardium, PKCE is mainly expressed in the endocardium overlying AV canal (Line312-314)

      (2) PMA experiments: Line 223-224: A major concern is related to the conclusion that "blood flow activates Notch in the cushion endocardium via the mTORC2-PKC signaling pathway". To make that claim, the authors show that a pharmacological activation with a potent PKC activator, PMA, rescues NICD levels in the AVC in dofetilide-treated embryos. This claim would also need proof that a lack of blood flow alters the activity of mTORC2 to phosphorylate the targets of PKC phosphorylation. Also, this observation does not explain the link between PKC activity and Notch activation.

      Both AKT Ser473 and PKC Ser660 are well characterized phosphorylation sites regulated by mTORC2 (Baffi TR et. al, mTORC2 controls the activity of PKC and Akt by phosphorylating a conserved TOR interaction motif. Sci Signal. 2021;14.). pAKT<sup>Ser473</sup> is widely used as an indicator of mTORC2 activity. Therefore, the reduced staining intensity of pAKT<sup>Ser473</sup> and pPKC<sup>Ser660</sup> observed in the dofetilide treated embryos should reflect the reduced activity of their common upstream activator mTORC2. This information is provided in Line 317-321.

      As PMA is a well-characterized specific activator of PKC, we believe the rescue of NICD by PMA could explain the link between PKC activity and Notch activation.

      (3) In addition, the authors hypothesise that shear stress lies upstream of PKC and Notch activation, and that because shear stress is highest at the valve-forming regions, PKC and Notch activity is localised to the valve-forming regions. Since PMA treatment affects the entire endocardium which expresses Notch1, NICD should be seen in areas outside of the AVC in the PMA+dofetilide condition. Please clarify.

      As shown in Figure 3C and Figure 3-supplement figure 2B, pPKC, PKCH and PKCE expression are all confined in the AVC region. This explains PMA activates NICD specifically in the valve-forming region. This information is added in Line 312-314.

      Lipid Membrane:

      (1) It is not clear how the authors think that the addition of cholesterol changes the lipid membrane structure or alters Cav-1 distribution. Can this be addressed? Does adding cholesterol make the membrane more stiff? Does increased stiffness result from higher shear stress?

      We do not know how exactly addition of cholesterol alters membrane structure and influence mTORC2-PKC-Notch signaling. As cholesterol is an important component of lipid raft and caveolae, it is possible that enrichment of cholesterol might alter the membrane structure to make the lipid raft structure less dependent on sheer stress. This hypothesis need to be tested in further in vitro studies. This information is added to Line 433-436.

      (2) The loss of blood flow apparently affects Cav1 membrane localization and causes a redistribution from the luminal compartment to lateral cell adhesion sites. Cholesterol treatment of dofetilide-treated hearts (lacking blood flow) rescued Cav1 localization to luminal membrane microdomains and rescued NICD expression. It remains unclear how the general addition of cholesterol would result in a rescue of regionalized membrane distribution within the AVC and in high-shear stress areas.

      We do not know the exact mechanism. As replied in the previous question, future cell-based work is needed to address these important questions. (Line 433-436)

      (3) The authors do not show the entire heart in that rescue treatment condition (cholesterol in dofetilide-treated hearts). Also, there is no quantification of that rescue in Figure 4B. Currently, only overview images of the heart are shown but high-resolution images on a subcellular scale (such as electron microscopy) are needed to resolve and show membrane microdomains of caveolae with Cav1 distribution. This is important because Cav-1could have functions independent of caveolae.

      In Figure 4C, most panels display the large part of the heart including AVC, atrium and ventricle. The images in the third column appear to be more restricted to AVC. We have now replaced these images to reveal AVC and part of the atrium and ventricle. 

      The quantification has also been provided in Figure 4C. We also added a new panel of scanning EM of AVC endocardium, showing numerous membrane invaginations on the luminal surface of the endocardial cells. The size of the invaginations ranges from 50 to 100 nm, consistent with the reported size of caveolae. Dofetilide significantly reduced the number of membrane invaginations, which recovered after restore of blood flow at 5 hours post dofetilide treatment. The reduction of membrane invaginations could also be rescued by ex vivo cholesterol treatment. This information is added to Line 342-349.

      Figure Legends, missing data, and clarity:

      (1) The number of embryos used in each experiment is not clear in the text or figure legends. In general, figure legends are incomplete (for instance in Figure 1).

      Thanks for reminding. we have now added numbers of embryos in the figure legends.

      (2) Line 204: The authors refer to unpublished endocardial RNAseq data from E9.5 embryos. These data must be provided with this manuscript if it is referred to in any way in the text.

      The RNAseq data of PKC isoforms is now provided in Figure3-Figure supplement 2A, Line 301-302.

      (3) Figure 1 shows Dll4 transcript levels, which do not necessarily correlate with protein levels. It would be important to show quantifications of these patterns as Notch/Dll4 levels are cycling and may vary with time and between different hearts.

      The Dll4 immuno-staining in Figure 1B,C is indeed Dll4 protein, not transcript. The quantification is added in Figure 1—Figure supplement 1C. Line 215.

      (4) Line 212-214: The authors describe cardiac cushion defects due to the loss of blood flow and refer to some quantifications that are not completely shown in Figure 3. For instance, quantifications for cushion cellularity and cardiac defects at three hours (after the start of treatment?) are missing.

      The formation of the defects is a developmental process and time dependent. To address this concern, we quantified the cushion cellularity at 5 hours post dofetilide treatment and showed that cell density significantly decreased in the dofetilide treated embryos, albeit less pronounced than the difference at E10.5. (Line 256-257)

      (5) Related to Figure 5. The work would be strengthened by quantification of the effects of dofetilide and verapamil on heartbeat at the doses applied. Is the verapamil dosage used here similar to the dose used in the clinic?

      We are grateful to this suggestion. The effect of dofetilide on heartbeat has already been shown in Figure 2A. We have now additionally measured the heartbeat rate of verapamil treated embryos, and provided the results in Figure 5E. For verapamil injection in mice, a single i.p. dose of 15 mg/kg was used, which is equivalent to 53 mg/m<sup>2</sup> body surface. Verapamil is used in the clinic at dosage ranging from 200 to 480 mg/day, equivalent to 3.33 - 8 mg/kg or 117 - 282 mg/m<sup>2</sup> body surface. Therefore, the dosage used in the mouse is not excessively high compared to the clinic uses. (Line 361-365) 

      Overstated Claims:

      (1) The authors claim that the lipid microstructure/mTORC2/PKC/Notch pathway is responsive to shear stress, rather than other mechanical forces or myocardial function. Their conclusions seem to be extrapolated from various in vitro studies using non-endocardial cells. To solidify this claim, the authors would need additional biomechanical data, which could be obtained via theoretical modelling or using mouse heart valve explants. This issue could also be addressed by the authors simply softening their conclusions.

      We aggrege with the reviewer’s comment. We have now revised the statement as “Our data support a model that membrane lipid microdomain acts as a shear stress sensor and transduces the mechanical cue to activate intracellular mTORC2-PKC-Notch signaling pathway in the developing endocardium. (line 416-418) It is noteworthy that the methodology used to alter blood flow in this study inevitably affects myocardial contraction. Additional work to uncouple sheer stress with other changes of mechanical properties of the myocardium with the aid of theoretical modelling or using mouse heart valve explants is needed to fully characterize the effect of sheer stress on mouse endocardial development.” (Line 436-440)

      (2) Line 263-264: In the discussion, the authors conclude that "Strong fluid shear stress in the AVC and OFT promotes the formation of caveolae on the luminal surface of the endocardial cells, which enhances PKCε phosphorylation by mTORC2." This link was shown rather indirectly, rather than by direct evidence, and therefore the conclusion should be softened. For example, the authors could state that their data are consistent with this model.

      We have revised the statement as “Strong fluid shear stress in the AVC and OFT enhances PKC phosphorylation by mTORC2 possibly by maintaining a particular membrane microstructure.” (Line 372-374)

      (3) In the Discussion, it says: "Mammalian embryonic endocardium undergoes extensive EMT to form valve primordia while zebrafish valves are primarily the product of endocardial infolding (Duchemin et al., 2019)." In the paper cited, Duchemin and colleagues described the formation of the zebrafish outflow tract valve. The zebrafish atrioventricular valve primordia is formed via partial EMT through Dll-Notch signaling (Paolini et al. Cell Reports 2021) and the collective cell migration of endocardial cells into the cardiac jelly. Then, a small subset of cells that have migrated into the cardiac jelly give rise to the valve interstitial cells, while the remainder undergo mesenchymal-to-endothelial transition and become endothelial cells that line the sinus of the atrioventricular valve (Chow et al., doi: 10.1371/journal.pbio.3001505). The authors should modify this part of the Discussion and cite the relevant zebrafish literature.

      Thanks for valuable comments. We have now revised the statement as “Mammalian embryonic endocardium undergoes extensive EMT to form valve primordia while zebrafish atrioventricular valve primordia is formed via partial EMT and the collective cell migration of endocardial cells into the cardiac jelly followed by tissue sheet delamination.” with relevant references added. (Line 411-414)

      Recommendations to the Authors:

      (1) One issue that the authors could address is the organization of figures. There are several cases where positive data that are central to the conclusions are placed in the supplement and should be moved to the main figures. Places where this occurred are listed below:

      - The Tie2 conditional deletion of Dll4 showing retention of NICD in the OFT and AVC regions is highly supportive of the model. The authors should consider moving these data to main Figure 1.

      Thanks for the suggestion. We have reorganized the figure as requested.

      - The ligand expression data in Figure 2- Supplement Figure 1 A is VERY important to the conclusions drawn from the dofetilide treatment. The authors should move these data to main Figure 2.

      The ligand expression data in Figure 2- Supplement Figure 1A are now moved to Figure 2B.

      - In Figure 3A - the area in the field of view should be stated in the Figure (is it the AVC?) Figure 3 - Supplement 1 proximal OFT data should be moved to main Figure 3 as it is central to the conclusions. Negative DA data can be left in the supplement. Again, for Figure 3 - Supplement 1 Stauroporine treatment data should be moved to the main figure as it is positive data that are central to the conclusions.

      Thanks for the suggestion. We have reorganized the figure as requested.

      (2) Antibody used for Twist1 detection is not listed in the resource table.

      Twist1 is purchased from abcam, the detailed information is now available in the resource table.

      (3) Missing arrowhead in Figure 4A, last row.

      Sorry for the negligence. Arrowhead is now added.

      (4) Line 286. "OFT" pasted on the word "endothelium".

      “OFT” is now removed.

      (5) Related to Figure 2C. The fast response of NICD to flow cessation was used as an argument to support post-translational modification. It is not clear why Sox9 and Twist1 expression also responds so quickly.

      Sox9 and Twist1 expression does seem to respond very quickly. Whether there exists additional regulatory pathways such as Wnt, Vegf signaling that also respond to sheer stress needs to be investigated in the future.

      (6) Line 200: The sentence should end with a period.

      Sorry for the oversight. It is now corrected.

      (7) Lines 34 to 35: the authors phrase that Notch is "allowed" to be specifically activated in the AVC and outflow tract by shear stress.

      We have rephrased the statement with “enabling Notch to be specifically activated in AVC and OFT by regional increased shear stress.” Line 27

      (8) Lines 96-100: At the end of the introduction, the text is copied from the abstract. New text should be written or summarized in a different way.

      The last sentence of introduction is now changed to “The results uncovered a new mechanism whereby mechanical force serves as a primary cue for endocardial patterning in mammalian embryonic heart.” (Line 93-95)

      (9) Line 125: The term "agreed with the Dll4 transcript.."should be replaced with a better term like "overlapped" or "was identical with".

      The word “agreed” is now “overlapped”. (Line 219)

      (10) Line 291: "Thus, through these sophisticated mechanisms, the developing mouse hearts may achieve three purposes:"- The English should be adjusted here since it sounds like hearts are aiming to achieve a purpose, which is unlikely what was meant by the authors.

      This sentence is rephrased to “Thus, in the developing mouse hearts: (1) VEGF signaling is reduced to permit endocardial EMT; (2) Dll4 expression is reduced to prevent widespread endocardial Notch activation and make endocardium sensitive to flow; (3) a proper cushion size and shape is maintained by limiting the flanking endocardium to undergo EMT despite physically close to the field of BMP2 derived from of AVC myocardium (Figure 6).” (Line 402-406)

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      The mice crossing scheme is unusual as you have three mice to cross to produce genotypes, while we could understand that it is possible to produce pups of desired genotypes with different mating schemes, such a vague crossing scheme is not desirable and of poor genetics practice.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. Indeed, our scheme is not a representation of the actual breeding scheme but just a brief explanation of lineages used for the acquisition of the triple transgenic mice. We will include the full crossing scheme into the revision.

      We added to the text the explanation that all used genotypes were maintained as homozygotes and put a full breeding scheme in the supplementary figure S1A

      It is worth mentioning that single knockouts seem to show a corresponding upregulation of the level of the paralogue kinase, indicating that any lack of phenotypes might be due to feedback compensation, which would be an interesting finding if confirmed; this has not been mentioned.

      We thank the reviewer for raising an important point about the paralog upregulation. Indeed, our data on primary cells (supplementary 1B) suggests the upregulation of CDK19 in CDK8KO and vice versa. We will point this out in discussion. We plan to examine the data for the testis as soon as more tissues are available.

      We addressed this question by performing additional western blot (added to the paper fig. 2D) and found no paralogue upregulation in testes. To do that we also manufactured novel rabbit anti-mouse CDK19 antibodies described in Materials and Methods.

      The authors should clarify or present the data on where CDK8 and CDK19  as well as CcnC are expressed so as to help the readers understand which tissues both CDK might be functioning in and cause the loss of CcnC.

      Due to a limited sensitivity of single cell sequencing (only ~5,000 transcripts are sequenced from total of average 500,000 transcripts per cell, so the low expressed transcripts are not sequenced in all cells) it is challenging to firmly establish CDK8/19 positive and -negative tissues from single cell data because both transcripts are minor. This image will be included in the next version.

      In this version we have added staining by CDK8 and CDK19 antibodies on paraffin sections, showing expression in variety of cells. Additionally, we have analyzed Cdk8/CcnC presence in different testicular cell types by flow cytometry. Both methods show that not only spermatogonial stem cells express Cdk8 as was shown in McCleland et al. 2005, but also some 1n cells, 4n cells and a significant part of cKit<sup>- </sup>2n cells. We added a corresponding paragraph and figures (2E-K) to the paper. We consider this a more definitive answer to the question than RNA data.

      Furthermore, data for the genitourinary system in single knockouts are very sparse; data are described for fertility in Figure 1H, ploidy, and cell number in Figures 2B and C, plasma testosterone and luteinizing hormone levels in Figures 5C and 5D, and morphology of testis and prostate tissue for single Cdk8 knockout in Supplementary Figure 1C (although in this case the images do not appear very comparable between control and CDK8 KO, thus perhaps wider fields should be shown), but, for example, there is no analysis of different meiotic stages or of gene expression in single knockouts. It is worth mentioning that single knockouts seem to show a corresponding upregulation of the level of the paralogue kinase, indicating that any lack of phenotypes might be due to feedback compensation, which would be an interesting finding if confirmed; this has not been mentioned.

      We agree that a description of the single KO could be beneficial, but we expect no big differences with the WT or Cre-Ert. We found neither histological differences nor changes in cell counts or ratios of cell types. Our ethical committee also has concerns about sacrificing mice without major phenotypic changes, without a well formulated hypothesis about the observed effects. We plan to add histological pictures to the next version of the article.

      We have updated histological figures with new figures for iDKO and Cre+Tam mice with additional fields of view and better quality staining (2A-B).

      The second major weakness is that the correlation between double knockout and reduced expression of genes involved in steroid hormone biosynthesis is portrayed as a causal mechanism for the phenotypes observed. While this is a possibility, there are no experiments performed to provide evidence that this is the case. Furthermore, there is no evidence showing that CDK8 and/or CDK19 are directly responsible for the transcription of the genes concerned.

      We agree with the reviewer that the effects on CDK8/CDK19/CCNC could lead to the observed transcriptional changes in multiple indirect steps. There are, however, major technical challenges in examining the binding of transcription factors in the tissue, especially in Leydig cells which are a relatively minor population.  We will clarify it in the revision and strengthen this point in the discussion.

      We have added corresponding explanation in the Discussion: “We hypothesize that all these changes are caused by disruption of testosterone synthesis in Leydig cells, although, at this point, we cannot definitively prove that the affected genes are regulated by CDK8/19 directly.”

      The claim of reproductive defects in the induced double knockout of CDK8/19 resulted from the loss of CCNC via a kinase-independent mechanism is interesting but was not supported by the data presented. While the construction and analysis of the systemic induced knockout model of Cdk8 in Cdk19KO mice is not trivial, the analysis and data are weakened by the systemic effect of Cdk8 loss, making it difficult to separate the systemic effect from the local testis effect.

      We agree with the reviewer that the effects on the testes could be due to the systemic loss of CDK8 rather than specifically in the testis, and we will clarify it in the revision. We will also clarify that although our results are suggestive that the effects of CDK8/19 knockout are kinase-independent, and that the loss of Cyclin C is a likely explanation for the kinase independence, but we do not claim that it is *the* mechanism.

      In this version we added several caveats indicating that the proposed mechanism is likely, but not the only one possible.

      Also using TAM-treated wild type as control is ok, but a better control will be TAM-treated ERT2-cre; CDK8f/f or TAM-treated ERT2 Cre CDK19/19 KO, so as to minimize the impact from the well-recognized effect of TAM.  

      We used TAM-treated ERT2-cre for most of the experiments, and did not observe any major histological or physiological differences with the WT+TAM. We will make sure to present them in the revision.

      The authors found that Sertoli cells re-entered the cell cycle in the inducible double knockout but stopped short of careful characterization other than increased expression of cell cycle genes.

      Unfortunately, we were not able to perform satisfactory Ki67 staining to address this point.

      Dko should be appropriately named iDKO (induced dKO). We will make the corresponding change.

      We performed necropsy ? not the right wording here.

      Colchicine-like apoptotic bodies ? what does this mean? Not clear.

      We made appropriate changes - all DKO were renamed iDKO, necropsy changed to autopsy and cells designated as “apoptotic”.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Given the proprietary claims of the authors ("We have for the first time generated mice with the systemic inducible Cdk8 knockout on the background of Cdk19 constitutive knockout"), it does not appear acceptable and indeed might be misleading, to not describe the overall phenotypes of the mice. Are mice normal size/weight? Does an autopsy reveal anything other than atrophied genital tissue in males? Do the authors find a phenotype in the intestinal epithelium, as previously reported? (N.B. this could potentially clarify a discrepancy in the literature since the loss of the secretory lineages in double knockouts reported by the Firestein lab was not reproduced by intestinal organoid double knockout in the paper by the Fisher lab).

      We have removed the statement “for the first time”, although to the best of our knowledge this is the fact. We did not attempt to describe all the phenotypic effects of the Cdk8/19 knockout in this paper, since some of the phenotypic observations related to mouse weight and behavior varied between different laboratories involved and require additional analysis. The effect on the urogenital system was by far the most striking histological feature observed and it was carefully addressed in this paper. Other findings require additional experiments and are out of the scope of this paper and we plan to focus on them later. As per suggestion of the reviewer we performed histological analysis of DKO intestines and found the same decrease in the Paneth and goblet cells numbers as described by Dannappel et al. We added corresponding figures (Supplemental fig. 1C) to the paper.

      If the authors wish to reinforce their claims about causality of steroidogenic gene expression and phenotype, they could try rescuing the phenotype by treating mice with testosterone.

      As stated in Discussion, we hypothesized that injection of testosterone would not rescue the phenotype, as the androgen receptor signaling is also affected. However we would like to perform such an experiment, but we were not able to procure testosterone pellets at this time.

      If they wish to claim a direct effect of CDK8/19 on the expression of steroidogenic genes, they could also assess CDK8/19 binding to promoters of the genes analysed by ChIP.

      There are big technical challenges in examining the binding of transcription factors in the primary tissue, especially in Leydig cells, a minor population, so we cannot perform such an experiment.

      In order to conclude that their CDK8/19 inhibitor treatment worked, they could show target engagement by cell thermal shift assay, loss of CDK8/19 kinase-dependent gene expression, or loss of CDK8/19 substrate phosphorylation (eg interferon-induced STAT1 S727 phosphorylation) under the conditions used. Alternatively, they could show rescue with a kinase-dead allele.

      As noted in public comments - we thank the reviewer for raising this concern. The target selectivity and target engagement by the inhibitors used in this study (Senexin B and SNX631-6) have been described in other models and published. CDK8/19 engagement and target selectivity of Senexin B, used in our vitro studies, have been extensively characterized in cell-based assays (Chen et al., Cells 2019, 8(11), 1413; Zhang et al., J Med Chem. 2022 Feb 24;65(4):3420-3433.) Similar characterization has been published for SNX631-6 and its equipotent analog SNX631, which showed drastic antitumor activity when  used in vivo at the same dosing regimen as in this paper (Li et al., J Clin Invest. 2024;134(10):e176709). The comparison of the pharmacokinetics data obtained in the present study and in vitro activity of SNX631-6 in a cell-based assay suggests that the tissue concentrations of this drug should have provided substantial inhibition of Cdk8/19. Unfortunately, there are no known phosphorylation substrates specific for Cdk8/19 that can be used as pharmacodynamic markers. The widely used STAT1 phosphorylation at S727 is exerted not only by CDK8/19 but also by other kinases and shows variable response to CDK8/19 inhibition (Chen et al., Cells 2019, 8(11), 1413). In the revised MS, we have added a Western blot with pSTAT1 S727 staining of WT, 8KO, 19KO and iDKO testes. Cdk8/19 knockout did not decrease and apparently even increased the level of pSTAT1 S727, which demonstrates that this marker of CDK8/19 activity it is not suitable for our tissue type. While the evidence that Cdk8/19 kinase inhibition in the testes after in vivo drug treatment does not match the phenotype of iDKO is admittedly indirect, the same result has been obtained in the cell culture studies with Sertoli cells, where the inhibitor concentration (1 µM Senexin B) was much higher than needed for the maximal Cdk8/19 inhibition.

      Finally, I did not find any legends to supplementary figures anywhere.

      We apologize for not including legends for supplementary figures, and will correct that in the next version of the manuscript.

      Additionally, we addressed the question about the sufficiency of the lipid supply for steroidogenesis in testes. There was a possibility that steroidogenesis is impossible due to the lack of cholesterol input, but OilRed staining revealed that the situation is the opposite: lipid content in iDKO testes is significantly higher than in WT testes. We added corresponding text to the article and the supplementary Fig. S6.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary: 

      This manuscript (Baron, Oviedo et al., 2024) builds on a previous study from the Wiseman lab (Perea, Baron et al., 2023) and describes the identification of novel nucleoside mimetics that activate the HRI branch of the ISR and drive mitochondrial elongation. The authors develop an image processing and analysis pipeline to quantify the effects of these compounds on mitochondrial networks and show that these HRI activators mitigate ionomycin-driven mitochondrial fragmentation. They then show that these compounds rescue mitochondrial morphology defects in patient-derived MFN2 mutant cell lines. 

      Strengths: 

      The identification of new ISR modulators opens new avenues for biological discovery surrounding the interplay between mitochondrial form/function and the ISR, a topic that is of broad interest. It also reinforces the possibility that such compounds might represent new potential therapeutics for certain mitochondrial disorders. The development of a quantitative image analysis pipeline is valuable and has the potential to extract the subtle effects of various treatments on mitochondrial morphology. 

      We thank the reviewer for the positive feedback on our manuscript. We address all of the reviewer’s valuable concerns in the revised submission, as highlighted below. 

      Weaknesses: 

      I have three main concerns.

      First, support for the selectivity of compounds 0357 and 3610 acting downstream of HRI comes from using knockdown ISR kinase cell lines and measuring the fluorescence of ATF4-mApple (Figure 1G and 1H). However, the selectivity of these compounds acting through HRI is not shown for mitochondrial morphology. Is mitochondrial elongation blocked in HRI knockdown cells treated with the compounds? While the ISRIB treatment does block mitochondrial elongation, ISRIB acts downstream of all ISR kinases and doesn't necessarily define selectivity for the HRI branch of the ISR. Additionally, are the effects of these compounds on ATF4 production and mitochondrial elongation blocked in a non-phosphorylatable eIF2alpha mutant? 

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this point. As indicated by the reviewer, we show that compounddependent increases in mitochondrial elongation are blocked by co-treatment with ISRIB, indicating that this effect can be attributed to ISR activation. We prefer the use of this highly selective pharmacologic approach to block ISR activation, as opposed to the MEF<sup>A/A</sup> cells, as the use of pharmacologic approaches provide more temporal control over ISR inhibition and can prevent the type of chronic disruption to mitochondria associated with these types of genetic perturbations. However, the reviewer is correct that ISRIB blocks downstream of all ISR kinases, meaning that we cannot explicitly demonstrate that 0357 and 3610 induce mitochondrial elongation downstream of HRI-dependent ISR activation using this tool. Thus, to address this point, we have clarified the discussion of these results to make it clear that our results show that our compounds induce mitochondrial elongation downstream of the ISR, omitting the direct implications of HRI in this phenotype. 

      This point of selectivity/specificity of the compounds gets at a semantic stumbling block I encountered in the text where it was often stated "stress-independent activation" of ISR kinases. Nucleoside mimetics are likely a very biologically active class of molecules and are likely driving some level of cell stress independent of a classical ISR, UPR, heat-shock response, or oxidative stress response. 

      A major challenge in defining stress-independent activation of stress-responsive signaling pathways is the fact that the activation of these pathways is often used as a primary marker of cellular stress. While this can be overcome by transcriptome-wide profiling (e.g., RNAseq), the reviewer is correct that our focused profiling of select stress-responsive signaling pathways is insufficient to claim the stress-independent activation of the ISR by our prioritized compounds. To address this, we removed this terminology from the revised submission.  

      Second, it is difficult for me to interpret the data for the quantification of mitochondrial morphology. In the legend for Figure 2, it is stated that "The number of individual measurements for each condition are shown above." Are the individual measurements the number of total cells quantified? If not, how many total cells were analyzed? If the individual measurements are distinct mitochondrial structures that could be quantified why are the n's for each parameter (bounding box, ellipsoid principal axis, and sphericity) so different? Does this mean that for some mitochondria certain parameters were not included in the analysis? For me, it seems more intuitive that each mitochondrial unit should have all three parameters associated with it, but if this isn't the case it needs to be more carefully described why. 

      The number of individual measurements refers to the number of 3D segmentations generated using the “surfaces’ module in Imaris. As the reviewer noted, we expect each surface segmentation to represent a single “mitochondrial unit.” We have now further clarified this in the figure legend. 

      Regarding differences in sample size for each group, we used an outlier test (i.e., ROUT outlier test in PRISM 10) to remove apparent outliers in our data. Often, these outliers result from errors in the automatic quantification that inaccurately merge two mitochondria into one large segmentation. This explains the discrepancy in the number of measurements made for each experimental group. We have made this point more clear in the Materials and Methods section of the revised manuscript.  

      Third, the impact of these compounds on the physiological function of mitochondria in the MFN2.D414V mutants needs to be measured. Sharma et al., 2021 showed a clear deficit in mitochondrial OCR in MFN2.D414V cells which, if rescued by these compounds, would strengthen the argument that pharmacological ISR kinase activation is a strategy for targeting the functional consequences of the dysregulation of mitochondrial form.

      In this manuscript, we demonstrate that pharmacologic activation of the ISR using 0357 and 3610 rescue mitochondrial morphology in patient fibroblasts expressing the disease-associated MFN2<sup>D414V</sup> mutant. The reviewer is correct that there are other mitochondrial phenotypes linked to the expression of this mutant. We are currently pursuing this question with more potent ISR activating compounds developed in our laboratory identified using the HTS screening platform described in this manuscript. However, this work, which builds on the studies described herein, uses other ISR activating compounds, which we feel would be best described in subsequent manuscripts that can fully define the activity of these new compounds.  

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary. 

      Mitochondrial dysfunction is associated with a wide spectrum of genetic and age-related diseases. Healthy mitochondria form a dynamic reticular network and constantly fuse, divide, and move. In contrast, dysfunctional mitochondria have altered dynamic properties resulting in fragmentation of the network and more static mitochondria. It has recently been reported that different types of mitochondrial stress or dysfunction activate kinases that control the integrated stress response, including HRI, PERK, and GCN2. Kinase activity results in decreased global translation and increased transcription of stress response genes via ATF4, including genes that encode mitochondrial protein chaperones and proteases (HSP70 and LON). In addition, the ISR kinases regulate other mitochondrial functions including mitochondrial morphology, phospholipid composition, inner membrane organization, and respiratory chain activity. Increased mitochondrial connectivity may be a protective mechanism that could be initiated by pharmacological activation of ISR kinases, as was recently demonstrated for GCN2. 

      A small molecule screening platform was used to identify nucleoside mimetic compounds that activate HRI. These compounds promote mitochondrial elongation and protect against acute mitochondrial fragmentation induced by a calcium ionophore. Mitochondrial connectivity is also increased in patient cells with a dominant mutation in MFN2 by treatment with the compounds.

      Strengths: 

      (1) The screen leverages a well-characterized reporter of the ISR: translation of ATF4-FLuc is activated in response to ER stress or mitochondrial stress. Nucleoside mimetic compounds were screened for activation of the reporter, which resulted in the identification of nine hits. The two most efficacious dose-response tests were chosen for further analysis (0357 and 3610). The authors clearly state that the compounds have low potency. These compounds were specific to the ISR and did not activate the unfolded protein response or the heat shock response. Kinases activated in the ISR were systematically depleted by CRISPRi revealing that the compounds activate HRI.

      (2) The status of the mitochondrial network was assessed with an Imaris analysis pipeline and attributes such as length, sphericity, and ellipsoid principal axis length were quantified. The characteristics of the mitochondrial network in cells treated with the compounds were consistent with increased connectivity. Rigorous controls were included. These changes were attenuated with pharmacological inhibition of the ISR. 

      (3) Treatment of cells with the calcium ionophore results in rapid mitochondrial fragmentation. This was diminished by pre-treatment with 0357 or 3610 and control treatment with thapsigargin and halofuginone 

      (4) Pathogenic mutations in MFN2 result in the neurodegenerative disease Charcot-Marie-Tooth Syndrome Type 2A (CMT2A). Patient cells that express Mfn2-D414V possess fragmented mitochondrial networks and treatment with 0357 or 3610 increased mitochondrial connectivity in these cells.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s positive response to these aspects of our manuscript. We address the reviewer’s valuable comments in the revised submission as highlighted below. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The weakness is the limited analysis of cellular changes following treatment with the compounds. 

      (1) Unclear how 0357 or 3610 alter other aspects of cellular physiology. While this would be satisfying to know, it may be that the authors determined that broad, unbiased experiments such as RNAseq or proteomic analysis are not justified due to the limited translational potential of these specific compounds.

      The reviewer is correct. The low potency of 0357 and 3610 limit the translational potential for these compounds. However, building on the work described herein, we recently identified more potent HRI activating compounds with higher translational potential. Using RNAseq profiling, we found that these compounds show transcriptomewide selectivity for the ISR and can promote adaptive remodeling of mitochondrial morphology and function in cellular models of multiple other diseases. These compounds will be further described in subsequent studies that expand on the efforts outlined here demonstrating the potential for pharmacologic HRI activators to promote adaptive mitochondrial remodeling.   

      (2) There are many changes in Mfn2-D414V patient cells including reduced respiratory capacity, reduced mtDNA copy number, and fewer mitochondrial-ER contact sites. These experiments are relatively narrow in scope and quantifying more than mitochondrial structure would reveal if the compounds improve mitochondrial function, as is predicted by their model.

      In this manuscript, we demonstrate that pharmacologic activation of the ISR using 0357 and 3610 rescue mitochondrial morphology in patient fibroblasts expressing the disease-associated MFN2<sup>D414V</sup> mutant. The reviewer is correct that there are other mitochondrial phenotypes linked to the expression of this mutant. We are currently pursuing this question with more potent ISR activating compounds developed in our laboratory using the HTS screening platform described in this manuscript. However, this work, which builds on the studies described herein, uses other ISR activating compounds, which we feel would be best described in subsequent manuscripts that can fully define the activity of these new compounds.  

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary: 

      Mitochondrial injury activates eiF2α kinases - PERK, GCN2, HRI, and PKR - which collectively regulate the Integrated Stress Response (ISR) to preserve mitochondrial function and integrity. Previous work has demonstrated that stress-induced and pharmacologic stress-independent ISR activation promotes adaptive mitochondrial elongation via the PERK and GCN2 kinases, respectively. Here, the authors demonstrate that pharmacologic ISR inducers of HRI and GCN2 enhance mitochondrial elongation and suppress mitochondrial fragmentation in two disease models, illustrating the therapeutic potential of pharmacologic ISR activators. Specifically, the authors first used an innovative ISR translational reporter to screen for nucleoside mimetic compounds that induce ISR signaling and identified two compounds, 0357 and 3610, that preferentially activate HRI. Using a mitochondrial-targeted GFP MEF cell line, the authors next determined that these compounds (as well as the GCN2 activator, halofuginone) enhance mitochondrial elongation in an ISR-dependent manner. Moreover, pretreatment of MEFs with these ISR kinase activators suppressed pathological mitochondrial fragmentation caused by a calcium ionophore. Finally, pharmacologic HRI and GCN2 activation were found to preserve mitochondrial morphology in human fibroblasts expressing a pathologic variant in MFN2, a defect that leads to mitochondrial fragmentation and is a cause of Charcot Marie Tooth Type 2A disease. 

      Strengths: 

      This well-written manuscript has several notable strengths, including the demonstration of the potential therapeutic benefit of ISR modulation. New chemical entities with which to further interrogate this stress response pathway are also reported. In addition, the authors used an elegant screen to isolate compounds that selectively activate the ISR and identify which of the four kinases was responsible for activation. Special attention was also paid to a thorough evaluation of the effect of their compounds on other stress response pathways (i.e. the UPR, and heat and oxidative stress responses), thereby minimizing the potential for off-target effects. The implementation of automated image analysis rather than manual scoring to quantify mitochondrial elongation is not only practical but also adds to the scientific rigor, as does the complementary use of both the calcium ionophore and MFN2 models to enhance confidence and the broad therapeutic potential for pharmacology ISR manipulation. 

      We thank the reviewer for their positive response to our manuscript. We address the reviewer’s remaining concerns as outlined below. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The only minor concerns are with regard to effects on cell health and the timing of pharmacological administration. 

      The two compounds described in this manuscript were found to not induce any overt toxicity over a 24 h period in cell culture models. In the revised manuscript, we show data showing that treatment with increasing doses of either 0357 or 3610 do not significantly reduce cellular viability in HEK293 cells (Fig. S1G). 

      With regards to treatments, we include all of the relevant information for the timing and dosage of compound treatment in the revised manuscript. 

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for Authors)

      (1) Figure S1 "B. ATF4-Gluc activity" -> Fluc, The number of replicates is not consistently stated for each experiment. p-values are not given for D and F. 

      We have changed the legend for Fig. S1B to ATF4-FLuc. We show individual replicates for all experiments for all panels described in this figure, except panels C and G, in the revised Figure S1. We explicitly state the number of replicates in panel C and G in the accompanying figure legend. We have repeated the qPCR described in panels C,F and statistics are included in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Figure 2 - no p-values for BtdCPU.

      Yes. We found that BtdCPU-dependent increases in mitochondrial fragmentation (described in Fig. 2A-D) were not significant when analyzing all the data included in these figures by Brown-Forsythe and Welch ANOVA test. However, the DMSO and BtdCPU conditions were significantly different when directly compared using a Welch’s t-test (p<0.005). Since the statistics in this manuscript are being analyzed by ANOVA, we decided not to include a significance marker for BtdCPU, as it was not observed in this more stringent test and is not the main focus of this manuscript.  

      (3) Figure S4 (Supplement to Figure 5) -> Supplement to Figure 4. 

      We have corrected this error in the revised manuscript. 

      (4) Error in references - duplicated 24 and 46, duplicated 10 and 11.

      This is now corrected in the revised submission.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      I would love to see an assessment of mitochondrial function and mtDNA in the D414 cells following treatment. 

      As indicated above, we are continuing to probe the impact of more potent HRI activating compounds in patientderived cell models expressing disease-relevant MFN2 mutants. Initial experiments suggest that this approach can mitigate additional pathologies beyond deficient elongation in these cells, although we are continuing to pursue these results with our improved HRI activating compounds. We are excited by these results, but feel that they are best suited for a follow-up manuscript describing these new HRI activators.   

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The only suggestion to broaden the manuscript's impact might be to perform a basic assessment of the impact of pharmaceutical ISR activation on cell viability. Though mitochondrial elongation is often considered a surrogate for mitochondrial health, whether mitochondrial elongation improves cell viability (or not) would be informative. Similarly, the authors did not address the time-dependent effects of the ISR modulators, choosing to focus on the acute rather more chronic outcomes. Finally, does simultaneous (rather than pre-) treatment with an activator and the ionomycin produce similar effects on mitochondrial morphology, especially since therapeutics are typically administered post-injury?

      We now include cell viability experiments showing that the two HRI activators discussed in this manuscript, 0357 and 3610, do not significantly reduce viability in HEK293 cells. This work is included in the revised manuscript (see Fig. S1G). 

      With respect to acute vs chronic outcomes of ISR activation. As highlighted by the reviewer, we primarily focus this work on defining the impact of acute ISR treatment on mitochondrial morphology. As discussed above, we now show that our prioritized ISR activating compounds 0357 and 3610 do not significantly impact cellular viability over a 24 h timecourse. However, as suggested by the reviewer, additional studies on the potential implications of chronic pharmacologic ISR activation on mitochondrial biology remains to be further explored.

      We are continuing to address this in subsequent studies using more potent ISR kinase activating compounds established in our lab. However, we would like to highlight that detrimental phenotypes linked to chronic ISR kinase activation in cell culture does not preclude the translational potential for this approach, as in vivo PK/PD of these compounds can be controlled to prevent complications arising from chronic pathway activity. We previously demonstrated the potential for controlling compound activity through its PK/PD in our establishment of highly selective activators of other stress-responsive signaling pathways such as the IRE1/XBP1s arm of the UPR (e.g., Madhavan et al (2022) Nat Comm).   

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments regarding the timing of compound treatment in them ionomycin experiment. Ionomycin works extremely quick to induce fragmentation (minutes), which would be prior to activation of the ISR induced by these compounds (hours). Thus, co-treatment would lead to fragmentation. It is an interesting question to ask if co-treatment with ISR activators could rescue this fragmentation as the pathway is activated, but we did not explicitly address this question in this manuscript. However, we do show that pharmacologic GCN2 or HRI activators can rescue mitochondrial morphology in patient fibroblasts expressing a MFN2 mutant, where mitochondria are fragmented, indicating that our approach can restore mitochondrial morphology in this context. We feel that these results, in combination with others described in our manuscript, demonstrate the potential for this approach to mitigate pathologic mitochondrial fragmentation associated with different conditions.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This work uses transgenic reporter lines to isolate entpd5a+ cells representing classical osteoblasts in the head and non-classical (osterix-) notochordal sheath cells. The authors also include entpd5a- cells, col2a1a+ cells to represent the closely associated cartilage cells. In a combination of ATAC and RNA-Seq analysis, the genome-wide transcriptomic and chromatin status of each cell population is characterized, validating their methodology and providing fundamental insights into the nature of each cell type, especially the less well-studied notochordal sheath cells. Using these data, the authors then turn to a thorough and convincing analysis of the regulatory regions that control the expression of the entpd5a gene in each cell population. Determination of transcriptional activities in developing zebrafish, again combined with ATAC data and expression data of putative regulators, results in a compelling and detailed picture of the regulatory mechanisms governing the expression of this crucial gene.

      Strengths:

      The major strength of this paper is the clever combination of RNA-Seq and ATAC analysis, further combined with functional transcriptional analysis of the regulatory elements of one crucial gene. This results in a very compelling story.

      Weaknesses:

      No major weaknesses were identified, except for all the follow-up experiments that one can think of, but that would be outside of the scope of this paper.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Complementary to mammalian models, zebrafish has emerged as a powerful system to study vertebrate development and to serve as a go-to model for many human disorders. All vertebrates share the ancestral capacity to form a skeleton. Teleost fish models have been a key model to understand the foundations of skeletal development and plasticity, pairing with more classical work in amniotes such as the chicken and mouse. However, the genetic foundation of the diversity of skeletal programs in teleosts has been hampered by mapping similarities from amniotes back and not objectively establishing more ancestral states. This is most obvious in systematic, objective analysis of transcriptional regulation and tissue specification in differentiated skeletal tissues. Thus, the molecular events regulating bone-producing cells in teleosts have remained largely elusive. In this study, Petratou et al. leverage spatial experimental delineation of specific skeletal tissues -- that they term 'classical' vs 'non-classical' osteoblasts -- with associated cartilage of the endo/peri-chondrial skeleton and inter-segmental regions of the forming spine during development of the zebrafish, to delineate molecular specification of these cells by current chromatin and transcriptome analysis. The authors further show functional evidence of the utility of these datasets to identify functional enhancer regions delineating entp5 expression in 'classical' or 'non-classical' osteoblast populations. By integration with paired RNA-seq, they delineate broad patterns of transcriptional regulation of these populations as well as specific details of regional regulation via predictive binding sites within ATACseq profiles. Overall the paper was very well written and provides an essential contribution to the field that will provide a foundation to promote modeling of skeletal development and disease in an evolutionary and developmentally informed manner.

      Strengths:

      Taken together, this study provides a comprehensive resource of ATAC-seq and RNA-seq data that will be very useful for a wide variety of researchers studying skeletal development and bone pathologies. The authors show specificity in the different skeletal lineages and show the utility of the broad datasets for defining regulatory control of gene regulation in these different lineages, providing a foundation for hypothesis testing of not only agents of skeletal change in evolution but also function of genes and variations of unknown significance as it pertains to disease modeling in zebrafish. The paper is excellently written, integrating a complex history and experimental analysis into a useful and coherent whole. The terminology of 'classical' and 'non-classical' will be useful for the community in discussing the biology of skeletal lineages and their regulation.

      Weaknesses:

      Two items arose that were not critical weaknesses but areas for extending the description of methods and integration into the existing data on the role of non-classical osteoblasts and establishment/canalization of this lineage of skeletal cells.

      (1) In reading the text it was unclear how specific the authors' experimental dissection of the head/trunk was in isolating different entp5a osteoblast populations. Obviously, this was successful given the specificity in DEG of results, however, analysis of contaminating cells/lineages in each population would be useful - e.g. using specific marker genes to assess. The text uses terms such as 'specific to' and 'enriched in' without seemingly grounded meaning of the accuracy of these comments. Is it really specific - e.g. not seen in one or other dataset - or is there some experimental variation in this?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. Given that the separation from head and trunk is done manually, there will be some experimental variability. We have used anatomical hallmarks (cleithrum and swim bladder), and therefore would expect the variability to be small. Regarding classical osteoblasts contaminating trunk tissue, head removal was consistently performed using the aforementioned anatomical hallmarks in a manner that ensures that the cleithrum does not remain in the trunk tissue.  In order to alleviate concerns regarding trunk cell populations contaminating cranial populations, and to further clarify our strategy, we add the following statement to the Materials and Methods section: “The procedure does not allow for a complete separation of notochordal non-classical osteoblasts from cranial classical osteoblasts, as the notochord extends into the cranium. However, the amount of sheath cells in that portion of the notochord is negligible, compared both to the number of classical (cranial) osteoblasts in head samples, and to notochord cells isolated in trunk samples.”

      (2) Further, it would be valuable to discuss NSC-specific genes such as calymmin (Peskin 2020) which has species and lineage-specific regulation of non-classical osteoblasts likely being a key mechanistic node for ratcheting centra-specific patterning of the spine in teleost fishes. What are dynamics observed in this gene in datasets between the different populations, especially when compared with paralogues - are there obvious cis-regulatory changes that correlate with the co-option of this gene in the early regulation of non-classical osteoblasts? The addition of this analysis/discussion would anchor discussions of the differential between different osteoblasts lineages in the paper.

      This is an interesting concept and idea, that we will consider in a possible revision or, if requiring substantial additional efforts, in a possible new research line. An excellent starting point for further studies using our datasets.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study characterizes classical and nonclassical osteoblasts as both types were analyzed independently (integrated ATAC-seq and RNAseq). It was found that gene expression in classical and nonclassical osteoblasts is not regulated in the same way. In classical osteoblasts, Dlx family factors seem to play an important role, while Hox family factors are involved in the regulation of spinal ossification by nonclassical osteoblasts. In the second part of the study, the authors focus on the promoter structure of entpd5a. Through the identification of enhancers, they reveal complex modes of regulation of the gene. The authors suggest candidate transcription factors that likely act on the identified enhancer elements. All the results taken together provide comprehensive new insights into the process of bone development, and point to spatio-temporally regulated promoter/enhancer interactions taking place at the entpd5a locus.

      Strengths:

      The authors have succeeded in justifying a sound and consistent buildup of their experiments, and meaningfully integrating the results into the design of each of their follow-up experiments. The data are solid, insightfully presented, and the conclusion valid. This makes this manuscript of great value and interest to those studying (fundamental) skeletal biology.

      Weaknesses:

      The study is solidly constructed, the manuscript is clearly written and the discussion is meaningful - I see no real weaknesses.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor issues that may need to be addressed or detailed:

      Supplementary Figures 1I-J, text page 4, line 24: "photoconversion and imaging": this needs some more detailed description: green fluorescent cells should be actively expressing Kaede, but only if there is a delay between photoconversion and imaging. What is the reason that Supplementary Figure 1F shows mainly green fluorescent cells, contrary to 1G-J?

      In our experiments, we could see new Kaede expression under the control of the entpd5a promoter region within 1.5 hours of photoconversion, as shown in Suppl. Figure 1E-H, suggesting that this time window was sufficient for protein generation. The reason for Suppl. Fig 1F showing more green fluorescence we believe relates to the high rate of transcriptional activity at that stage, in the entirety of the notochord progenitor cells. In addition, this is an effect which we attribute to the relatively small number of cells producing red fluorescence at that stage, due to photoconversion of only a few Kaede+ cells at the 15 somites stage (Suppl. Fig. 1E). Therefore, the masking effect of the green fluorescence by the red is not as significant as in G and H, where the red fluorescence resulting from photoconversion right after imaging at 18s and 21s, respectively, significantly overlaps with new green fluorescence. This can be seen in the image as the presence of orange fluorescence in G and H, instead of the clear red shown in E, I and J.

      In addition to this, we would like to point out that in Suppl. Fig. 1I, J the reason that green fluorescence is only detected in the ventral region of the notochord, is because the promoter of entpd5a only remains active in the ventral-most sheath cells at that stage. This is stated in the results section of the main text, first subsection, paragraph 3. The reason for this very interesting, strictly localised expression pattern remains unclear.

      Somewhat intriguing: green fluorescence in Figure 1B, C (osx:GAL4FF) and Supplementary Figure 1C (entpd5a:GAL4FF) in the CNS? Would that be an artefact of the GAL4FF/UAS:GFP system?

      We are confident that the fluorescence pointed out by the reviewer is not an artefact of the GAL4FF/UAS system, for a few reasons. Firstly, osx (Sp7) has been shown to be expressed and to function in the nervous system in mice (Park et al, BBRC, 2011; Elbaz et al, Neuron, 2023). Secondly, not only osx, but also entpd5a can be readily detected in a subset of cranial and spinal neurons in early development using the entpd5a:GAL4FF; UAS:GFP transgenic line (Suppl. Fig 1C). Finally, when establishing transgenic lines with the entpd5a(1.1):GFP construct, expression was almost invariably present in diverse elements of the nervous system, but not in bone (data not shown). This led us to hypothesise that the minimal promoter of entpd5a (and possibly also that of osx) is activated by transcription factors active in the nervous system, and this effect is likely controlled by the surrounding enhancers, but also the genome location. It is unclear at present what the endogenous neural expression of the two genes is like, and we did not further investigate this in this study, as the focus was on the skeleton.

      Figure 2: What exactly is "Corrected Total Cell Fluorescence"? Is it green + red fluorescence?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the absence of more information on this. Corrected total cell fluorescence does not correspond to green+ red fluorescence, rather it is calculated as follows for a single channel:

      CTCF = Integrated Density – (Area of selected cell X Mean fluorescence of background readings)

      More details can be found in the following website: https://theolb.readthedocs.io/en/latest/imaging/measuring-cell-fluorescence-using-imagej.html

      We have edited the Materials and Methods section under “Imaging and image analysis” to include the aforementioned information.

      Page 11, line 34: The authors may have missed the recently published "Raman et al., Biomolecules 2024 Vol. 14; doi:10.3390/biom14020139" describing RNA-Seq in 4 dpf osterix+ osteoblasts.

      We thank the reviewer for drawing our attention to the Raman et al publication. The reference has now been added in the manuscript.

      Figure 5A and B: use a higher resolution version to make the numbers and gene names more readable. Figures 5C and 6A could also use a larger font for the text and numbers.

      High resolution files are now included with the revised manuscript, which should significantly help in making figures more easily readable. Although we agree with the reviewer that larger fonts would improve readability, due to the nature of the graphs (very small spaces in some cases, where the numbers would have to fit) this would not be easy to achieve. However, we believe that this issue will be resolved with the availability of higher resolution files. If readability remains a concern, we would be happy to attempt re-organising the graphs to allow for larger fonts.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I suggest no further experiments, but do suggest that a few points be clarified.

      In the Discussion, the text "the less evolved osteoblasts of fish and amphibians..." is not accurate. These cells are not less evolved as they represent an independent lineage to tetrapods that have evolved with different stresses for a similar time. However, as teleost fishes and amphibians share characteristics and all share a common ancestor, these signatures represent a putative ancestral state of skeletal differentiation not seen in amniotes, including humans.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the unfortunate phrasing. The text has now been modified as follows: “Specifically, the osteoblasts of teleost fish and amphibians, whose characteristics are putatively closer to a more ancestral state of skeletal differentiation compared to amniotes, appear to share gene expression with chondrocytes”.

      The title could potentially be shortened to reach a broader audience by removing the initial clause of 'integration of ATAC and RNA seq' as this is a commonly performed analysis - "Chromatin and transcriptomic signature in classical and non-classical zebrafish osteoblasts indicate mechanisms of ancestral skeletal differentiation" is more descriptive of the findings and not focused on the method.

      We have discussed this internally, but would prefer to retain the current title. The reason is (1) because we would like to see our methodology and datasets be used as platform for further studies, and the current title, in our opinion, facilitates this. In regards to replacing “mechanisms of entpd5a regulation” with “mechanisms of ancestral skeletal differentiation”, we think this does not give an accurate description of our work, which is primarily focused on elucidating entpd5a promoter dynamics.

      All datasets should be made available as soon as possible for use in the field.

      The datasets (raw and processed) are available on the GEO database. The corresponding accession numbers can be found in our data availability statement.

      Minor comments:

      (1) Figure 1A. The labels are missing for grey and light blue structures.

      These structures are together making up the “notochord sheath”, which is comprised of the basal lamina (grey), the medial layer of fibrillar collagen (light blue) and the outer layer of loosely arranged matrix (lighter blue). We modified the figure legend to indicate that the three layers all correspond to the notochord sheath.

      (2) Figure 2A. The constructs in the lower part of the panel are not discussed in the legend and seem out of place in terms of data type and analysis.

      We would argue that indicating which non-coding regions and which ATAC peaks were responsible for driving GFP expression in each construct aids in a better understanding of our results. We thank the reviewer for pointing out the lack of mention of these constructs in the figure legend. This issue has now been resolved.

      (3) Be wary of red/green color combinations, especially in the figures where these are juxtaposed with each other.

      We apologise for the use of red/green colour. Although it is not possible for this manuscript to change the colour patterns, we will make sure to avoid the use of these colours in conjunction in the future.

      (4) The use of fish as a term should be classified as teleost fish, as authors are not addressing non-teleost basal ray-finned fishes or the fact that tetrapods are within bony fishes overall.

      This is well spotted, we have now remedied this by editing the manuscript. Where the term “fish” was used, we now state “teleost fish”.

      (5) Age information is missing in several Figures (e.g. 1D and 2C).

      In some of the figures space constrains did not allow for including the stage on the figure itself. However, we have made sure that in those cases the stage is incorporated in the figure legend.

      (6) The resolution of several Figures (e.g. Figure 5 and Supplementary Figure 3) is low.

      We address this issue by providing high resolution figures with the revised manuscript.

      (7) In the sentence (top page before Discussion) "The same conclusion was reached upon isolation from these three..", it was unclear what 'upon isolation' referred to.

      We agree with the reviewer that this phrasing is unclear. To enhance clarity, the manuscript now reads as follows: “The same conclusion was reached upon isolation of the DEGs highlighted by our RNA-seq results, from the three aforementioned groups of genes associated with ATAC peaks for each cell population.”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study investigated the phosphoryl transfer mechanism of the enzyme adenylate kinase, using SCC-DFTB quantum mechanical/molecular mechanical (QM/MM) simulations, along with kinetic studies exploring the temperature and pH dependence of the enzyme's activity, as well as the effects of various active site mutants. Based on a broad free energy landscape near the transition state, the authors proposed the existence of wide transition states (TS), characterized by the transferring phosphoryl group adopting a meta-phosphate-like geometry with asymmetric bond distances to the nucleophilic and leaving oxygens. In support of this finding, kinetic experiments were conducted with Ca2+ ions at different temperatures and pH, which revealed a reduced entropy of activation and unique pH-dependence of the catalyzed reaction.

      Strengths:

      A combined application of simulation and experiments is a strength.

      Weaknesses:

      The conclusion that the enzyme-catalyzed reaction involves a wide transition state is not sufficiently clarified with some concerns about the determined free energy profiles compared to the experimental estimate. (See Recommendations for the authors.)

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors report results of QM/MM simulations and kinetic measurements for the phosphoryl-transfer step in adenylate kinase. The main assertion of the paper is that a wide transition state ensemble is a key concept in enzyme catalysis as a strategy to circumvent entropic barriers. This assertion is based on observation of a "structurally wide" set of energetically equivalent configurations that lie along the reaction coordinate in QM/MM simulations, together with kinetic measurements that suggest a decrease of the entropy of activation.

      Thank you for your feedback. The reviewer’s questions are answered below, hoping to clarify them.

      Strengths:

      The study combines theoretical calculations and supporting experiments.

      Weaknesses:

      The current paper hypothesizes a "wide" transition state ensemble as a catalytic strategy and key concept in enzyme catalysis. Overall, it is not clear the degree to which this hypothesis is fully supported by the data. The reasons are as follows:

      (1) Enzyme catalysis reflects a rate enhancement with respect to a baseline reaction in solution. In order to assert that something is part of a catalytic strategy of an enzyme, it would be necessary to demonstrate from simulations that the activation entropy for the baseline reaction is indeed greater and the transition state ensemble less "wide". Alternatively stated, when indicating there is a "wide transition state ensemble" for the enzyme system - one needs to indicate that is with respect to the non-enzymatic reaction. However, these simulations were not performed and the comparisons not demonstrated. The authors state "This chemical step would take about 7000 years without the enzyme" making it impossible to measure; nonetheless, the simulations of the nonenzymatic reaction would be fairly straight forward to perform in order to demonstrate this key concept that is central to the paper. Rather, the authors examine the reaction in the absence of a catalytically important Mg ion.

      Thank you for your thoughtful feedback. QM/MM calculations for uncatalysed phosphoryl-transfer reactions involving either diphosphates or triphosphates have been well documented in the literature showing narrow and symmetric TSE (Klan et al., JACS 2006, 128 (47) 15310-15323; Cui Wang et al., JPCB 2015, 119(9), 3720-3726). We added these references to the revised manuscript.

      (2) The observation of a "wide conformational ensemble" is not a quantitative measure of entropy. In order to make a meaningful computational prediction of the entropic contribution to the activation free energy, one would need to perform free energy simulations over a range of temperatures (for the enzymatic and non-enzymatic systems). Such simulations were not performed, and the entropy of activation was thus not quantified by the computational predictions. The authors instead use a wider TS ensemble as a proxy for larger entropy, and miss an opportunity to compare directly to the experimental measurements.

      Although we share the reviewers desire to quantify entropies from QM/MM simulations, we agree with discussions in the literature that calculating quantitative entropies from performing QM/MM simulations at different temperatures is not reliable. We therefore felt strongly to stay with a qualitative assessment of entropy differences from our simulations. As the reviewer highlighted, our study combines theoretical calculations and experiments. The entropy of activation is well estimated by the experiments from the experimental accuracy of these temperature-dependent changes in rate constants for the chemical step.  Our computational results agree well with the experimental results and were further validated in 2 rounds of reviews/revisions by additional different free energy calculation methods (MSMD and US), plus committor analysis.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      By conducting QM/MM free energy simulations, the authors aimed to characterize the mechanism and transition state for the phosphoryl transfer in adenylate kinase. The qualitative reliability of the QM/MM results has been supported by several interesting experimental kinetic studies. However, the interpretation of the QM/MM results is not well supported by the current calculations.

      Thank you for your feedback. We appreciate the recognition of our experimental validation but understand your concern about the interpretation of our QM/MM results. To address this, we answer the specific questions below and added clearer explanations of the computational approach, including its limitations. We also better aligned the QM/MM results with both experimental data and theoretical expectations to strengthen the overall interpretation.

      Strengths:

      The QM/MM free energy simulations have been carefully conducted. The accuracy of the semi-empirical QM/MM results was further supported by DFT/MM calculations, as well as qualitatively by several experimental studies.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) One key issue is the definition of the transition state ensemble. The authors appear to define this by simply considering structures that lie within a given free energy range from the barrier. However, this is not the rigorous definition of transition state ensemble, which should be defined in terms of committor distribution. This is not simply an issue of semantics, since only a rigorous definition allows a fair comparison between different cases - such as the transition state in an enzyme vs in solution, or with and without the metal ion. For a chemical reaction in a complex environment, it is also possible that many other variables (in addition to the breaking and forming P-O bonds) should be considered when one measures the diversity in the conformational ensemble.

      In the revised manuscript, the authors included committor analysis. However, the discussion of the result is very brief. In particular, if we use the common definition of the transition state ensemble (TSE) as those featuring the committor around 0.5, the reaction coordinate of the TSE would span a much narrower range than those listed in Table 1. This point should be carefully addressed.

      The reviewer is right, the TSE is rigorously defined in terms of the committor distribution. We actually calculated the committor distribution for the reaction with and without Mg. We now added the figure showing the committor distribution for both reactions (Figure 3 – supplement 9). We did not include these results before because the committor distribution histogram would need more points to have a more accurate shape, requiring a high computational cost. We followed the reviewer’s suggestion and updated table 1 with the values from the committor distribution analysis.

      (2) While the experimental observation that the activation entropy differs significantly with and without the Ca2+ ion is interesting, it is difficult to connect this result with the "wide" transition state ensemble observed in the QM/MM simulations so far. Even without considering the definition of the transition state ensemble mentioned above, it is unlikely that a broader range of P-O distances would explain the substantial difference in the activation entropy measured in the experiment. Since the difference is sufficiently large, it should be possible to compute the value by repeating the free energy simulations at different temperatures, which would lead to a much more direct evaluation of the QM/MM model/result and the interpretation.

      See our answer above about this point.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major comments:

      One of the remaining issues with this revision is the assertion of the wide transition states in the presence of Mg2+ ion. When discussing the transition state of phosphoryl transfer reactions, it is important to consider their nature as involving both the cleavage and formation of P-O bonds. While these two events can occur in concert with a single transition state, many studies have shown that one event often precedes the other. Sometimes, there is a slight drop in free energy between the two events, forming a transient intermediate. However, due to its very short lifetime, this intermediate state may not be detectable experimentally. Depending on the sequence of events, the transition state or the transient intermediate may exhibit characteristics of a metaphosphate or phosphorane-like species. Based on the DFTB simulation results presented in the paper, it appears that the reaction forms a metaphosphate-like transition state. In the present reaction, since the two oxygen atoms involved in the reaction are very good leaving groups with similar reactivity, it is not surprising to observe the two events near the TS with very similar relative free energies, and therefore, the free energy profile can be very flat near the TS. This is consistent with the statement that "the transferring phosphate can be much closer to the leaving oxygen than the attacking oxygen and vice versa" on page 9. In my opinion, however, this should not be considered as a wide transition state but rather a consequence of the two events occurring very close to each other along the reaction coordinate. This distinction can be considered a semantic issue, and as long as the authors clearly discuss this issue and clarify the meaning of the TS ensemble, the reviewer is okay with that. In its current form, the statement of the wide TS ensemble may lead to a misleading interpretation of the reaction under study.

      An intermediate is clearly defined as a minimum in the free energy landscape. We see no evidence in any of your simulations of a minimum flanked by two transitions states, nor do we see any evidence in our NMR relaxation data or crystal structure ensemble refinement. We report our experimental and computational results, so that the reader can directly interpret the free energy landscapes for this system, avoiding semantics due to language ambiguity.

      Second, based on the kinetic study, the free energy of the catalytic reaction is approximately zero. The authors suggest that at pH near 7, the ADP exists as a roughly

      50-50 mixture between the singly protonated and fully charged states and consequently, the reaction free energies between the two scenarios cancel each other out. However, this argument is not correct. If [ADP(H)]/[ADP] is close to 1, the two reaction free energies, one with +6 kcal/mol and the other with -6 kcal/mol, imply that the protonation of the products (either ATP or AMP) requires ~12 kcal/mol (i.e., 9 pKa unit shift). Given the symmetric nature of the reaction and the similar pKa values between ATP, ADP versus AMP, such a large shift in the pKa of the product state is not expected, and for the calculated results to be accurate, the pKa shifts in the reactant state versus the product state must be opposite, with a total relative shift of 9 pKa units. This is difficult to understand given the nature of the reaction catalyzed by the adenylate kinase enzyme.

      We thank this reviewer for this question, which made us realize that we cannot compare the free energies of our QM/MD simulations with the experimentally determined ADP and ATP/AMP ratios. In the experiment we determine the entire pool of ADP and AMP/ATP bound to the enzyme, but could not distinguish if the protonated and or nonprotonated states are contributing to the measured observed rate constants (Kerns, S. et al.,(2015). In the present study, we now discovered that the nonprotonated forms have a lower activation barrier, but the protonated states also contribute to the overall reaction. Therefore, we removed this paragraph from our discussion.

      Minor comments:

      The difference in the free energy barrier determined by the MSMD and umbrella sampling is not negligible. Considering that umbrella sampling is commonly used in this type of research, the MSMD method appears to overestimate the barrier by more than 3 kcal/mol. Would the TS geometries obtained by umbrella sampling be comparable to those obtained by MSMD?

      This is an excellent suggestion, since the umbrella sampling is the more accurate method. The TSE from both methods are indeed comparable, and we added new figure panels about this results to Fig. 4.

      Figure 5 shows that the enthalpy of activation is similar for reactions with and without Ca2+. Do the authors expect the enthalpy of activation to decrease when Ca2+ is replaced by Mg2+ without a significant change in the entropy of activation? Any justification?

      In (Kerns, S. et al.,(2015) we had experimentally determined the dependence of the observed rate of the P-transfer on the nature of the divalent metal, with Mg2+ being by far superior to the other divalent metals. We proposed that this majorly is an effect on the enthalpy of activation, that other divalent metals provide poor orbital overlap, in agreement with published work on P-transfer reactions that show selectivity for a specific metal.

      Please provide proper citations for SHAKE and WHAM.

      The citations were added.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors did not really address in the revised manuscript the main points of the previous review, which included examination of non-enzymatic reaction (via simulation, not measurement) and quantification of the connection between the reported wide TS ensemble and the increase in entropy (by additional simulations). The authors should also add reference to the AM1/d-PhoT model of Nam et al. which is now discussed.

      QM/MM calculations for uncatazlysed phosphoryl-transfer reactions involving either diphosphates or triphosphates have been well documented in the literature showing narrow and symmetric TSE (Klahn et al., JACS 2006, 128 (47) 15310-15323; Cui Wang et al., JPCB 2015, 119(9), 3720-3726). We added these references to the revised manuscript.

      The reference to AM1/d-PhoT model was added.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In the revised ms, the authors indeed addressed many of the points raised in the previous round of review. In addition to the issue of TSE and committor mentioned above, another point that needs to be carefully explained is the very significant difference between umbrella sampling results and those in Fig. 1C - especially for the case without Mg2+ - the difference of more than 20 kcal/mol is not something that can be ignored at a qualitative level.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out that the difference in free energy profiles between umbrella sampling (US) and MSMD, especially in the case without Mg<sup>2</sup>+ needs to be addressed.

      We believe that the key reason for this difference lies in the methodological approaches of these techniques.

      Umbrella sampling is an equilibrium enhanced sampling method, that allows for a balanced and thorough exploration of the free energy landscape, the MSMD is a non-equilibrium method and estimation depends of the averaging scheme used and the number of trajectories. In the present work, the free energy was estimated using an exponential average. This averaging scheme has a slow convergence, small variance and may overestimate the free energy barrier, specially if the barrier as seen in the absence of Mg is quite high. This factor could explain the significant difference between umbrella sampling and MSMD combined with Jarzynski’s equality.

      We have added new panels to Fig. 4 to compare the TSE from the more accurate umbrella sampling to the MSMD simulations, buttressing the validity of our original findings. We revised the manuscript discuss the differences between the MSMD and the umbrella sampling free energy profiles.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The work analyzes how centrosomes mature before cell division. A critical aspect is the accumulation of pericentriolar material (PCM) around the centrioles to build competent centrosomes that can organize the mitotic spindle. The present work builds on the idea that the accumulation of PCM is catalyzed either by the centrioles themselves (leading to a constant accumulation rate) or by enzymes activated by the PCM itself (leading to autocatalytic accumulation). These ideas are captured by a previous model derived for PCM accumulation in C. elegans (ref. 8) and are succinctly summarized by Eq. 1. The main addition of the present work is to allow the activated enzymes to diffuse in the cell, so they can also catalyze the accumulation of PCM in other centrosomes (captured by Eqs. 2-4). The authors claim that this helps centrosomes to reach the same size, independent of potential initial mismatches.

      A strength of the paper is the simplicity of the equations, which are reduced to the bare minimum and thus allow a detailed inspection of the physical mechanism. One shortcoming of this approach is that all equations assume that the diffusion of molecules is much faster than any of the reactive time scales, although there is no experimental evidence for this.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s recognition of the strengths of our work. Indeed, the centrosome growth model incorporates multiple timescales corresponding to various reactions, and existing experimental data do not directly provide diffusion constants for the cytosolic proteins. However, we can estimate these diffusion constants using protein mass, based on the Stokes-Einstein relation, and compare the diffusion timescales with the reaction timescales obtained from FRAP analysis. For example, we estimate that the diffusion timescale for centrosomes separated by 5-10 micrometers is much smaller than the reaction timescales deduced from the FRAP experiments. Specifically, for SPD-5, a scaffold protein with a mass of ~150 kDa, the estimated diffusion constant is ~17 µm<sup>2</sup>/s, using the Stokes-Einstein relation and a reference diffusion constant of ~30 µm<sup>2</sup>/s for a 30 kDa GFP protein (reference: Bionumbers book). This results in a diffusion timescale of ~1 second for centrosomes 10 µm apart. In contrast, FRAP recovery timescales for SPD-5 in C. elegans embryos are on the order of several minutes, suggesting that scaffold protein binding reactions are much slower than diffusion. Therefore, a reaction-limited model is appropriate for studying PCM self-assembly during centrosome maturation. We have revised the manuscript to clarify this point and to include a discussion of the diffusion and reaction timescales.

      Spatially extended model with diffusion

      Both the reviewers have pointed out the importance of considering diffusion effects in centrosome size dynamics, and we agree that this is important to explore. We have developed a spatially extended 3D version of the centrosome growth model, incorporating stochastic reactions and diffusion (see Appendix 4). In this model, the system is divided into small reaction volumes (voxels), where reactions depend on local density, and diffusion is modeled as the transport of monomers/building blocks between voxels.

      We find that diffusion can alter the timescales of growth, particularly when the diffusion timescale is comparable to or slower than the reaction timescale, potentially mitigating size inequality by slowing down autocatalysis. However, the main conclusions of the catalytic growth model remain unchanged, showing robust size regulation independent of diffusion constant or centrosome separation (Figure 2—figure supplement 3). Hence, we focused on the effect of subunit diffusion on the autocatalytic growth model. We find that in the presence of diffusion, the size inequality reduces with increasing diffusion timescale, i.e., increasing distance between centrosomes and decreasing diffusion constant (Figure 2—figure supplement 4). However, the lack of robustness in size control in the autocatalyic growth model remains, i.e., the final size difference increases with increasing initial size difference. Notably, in the diffusion-limited regime (very small diffusion or large distances), the growth curve loses its sigmoidal shape, resembling the behavior in the non-autocatalytic limit (Figure 2). These findings are discussed in the revised manuscript.

      Another shortcoming of the paper is that it is not clear what species the authors are investigating and how general the model is. There are huge differences in centrosome maturation and the involved proteins between species. However, this is not mentioned in the abstract or introduction. Moreover, in the main body of the paper, the authors mention C. elegans on pages 2 and 3, but refer to Drosophila on page 4, switching back to C. elegans on page 5, and discuss Drosophila on page 6. This is confusing and looks as if they are cherry-picking elements from various species. The original model in ref. 8 was constructed for C. elegans and it is not clear whether the autocatalytic model is more general than that. In any case, a more thorough discussion of experimental evidence would be helpful.

      We believe one strength of our approach is its applicability across organisms. Our goal in comparing the theoretical model with experimental data from C. elegans and D.

      melanogaster is to demonstrate that the apparent qualitative differences in centrosome growth across species (see e.g., the extent of size scaling discussed in the section “Cytoplasmic pool depletion regulates centrosome size scaling with cell size”) may arise from the same underlying mechanisms in the theoretical model, albeit with different parameter values. We acknowledge differences in regulatory molecules between species, but the core pathways remain conserved see e.g. Raff, Trends in Cell Biology 2019, section: “Molecular Components of the Mitotic Centrosome Scaffold Appear to Have Been Conserved in Evolution from Worms to Humans”. In the revised manuscript, we have expanded the introduction to clarify this point and explain how our theory applies across species. We have also provided a clearer discussion of the experimental systems used throughout the manuscript and the available experimental evidence.

      The authors show convincingly that their model compensates for initial size differences in centrosomes and leads to more similar final sizes. These conclusions rely on numerical simulations, but it is not clear how the parameters listed in Table 1 were chosen and whether they are representative of the real situation. Since all presented models have many parameters, a detailed discussion on how the values were picked is indispensable. Without such a discussion, it is not clear how realistic the drawn conclusions are. Some of this could have been alleviated using a linear stability analysis of the ordinary differential equations from which one could have gotten insight into how the physical parameters affect the tendency to produce equal-sized centrosomes.

      Following the suggestion of the reviewer, we have revised the manuscript to add references and discussions justifying the choice of the parameter values used for the numerical simulations. These references and parameter choices can be found in Table 1 and Table 2, and are also discussed in relevant figure captions and within the manuscript text.

      We thank the reviewer for the excellent suggestion of including linear stability analysis of the ODE models of centrosome growth. We included linear stability analyses of the catalytic and autocatalytic growth models in Appendix 3. Analysis of the catalytic growth model reaffirms the robustness of size equality and the analysis of autocatalytic growth provides an approximate condition of size inequality. We have modified the revised manuscript to discuss these results.

      The authors use the fact that their model stabilizes centrosome size to argue that their model is superior to the previously published one, but I think that this conclusion is not necessarily justified by the presented data. The authors claim that "[...] none of the existing quantitative models can account for robustness in centrosome size equality in the presence of positive feedback." (page 1; similar sentence on page 2). This is not shown convincingly. In fact, ref 8. already addresses this problem (see Fig. 5 in ref. 8) to some extent.

      The linear stability analysis shown in Fig 5 in ref 8 (Zwicker et al, PNAS, 2014) shows that the solutions are stable around the fixed point and it was inferred from this result that Ostwald ripening can be suppressed by the catalytic activity of the centriole, therefore stabilizing the centrosomes (droplets) against coarsening by Ostwald ripening. But, if size discrepancy arises from the growth process (e.g., due to autocatalysis) the timescale of relaxation for such discrepancy is not clear from the above-mentioned result. We show (in figure 2 - figure supplement 3) that for any appreciable amount of positive feedback, the solution moves very slowly around the fixed point (almost like a line attractor) and cannot reach the fixed point in a biologically relevant timescale. Hence the model in ref 8 does not provide a robust mechanism for size control in the presence of autocatalytic growth. We have added this discussion in the Discussion section.

      More importantly, the conclusion seems to largely be based on the analysis shown in Fig. 2A, but the parameters going into this figure are not clear (see the previous paragraph). In particular, the initial size discrepancy of 0.1 µm^3 seems quite large, since it translates to a sphere of a radius of 300 nm. A similarly large initial discrepancy is used on page 3 without any justification. Since the original model itself already showed size stability, a careful quantitative comparison would be necessary.

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable suggestions. The parameters used in Fig. 2A are listed in Table 1 with corresponding references, and we used the parameter values from Zwicker et al. (2014) for rate constants and concentrations.

      The issue of initial size differences between centrosomes is important, but quantitative data on this are not readily available for C. elegans and Drosophila. Centrosomes may differ initially due to disparities in the amount and incorporation rate of PCM between the mother and daughter centrioles. Based on available images and videos (Cabral et al, Dev. Cell, 2019, DOI: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.devcel.2019.06.004), we estimated an initial radius of ~0.5 μm for centrosomes. Accounting for a 5% radius difference would lead to a volume difference of ~0.1 μm<sup>3</sup>, which was used in our analysis (Fig. 2A). These differences likely arise from distinct growth conditions of centrosomes containing different centrioles (older mother and newer daughter).

      More importantly, we emphasize that the initial size difference does not qualitatively alter the results presented in Figure 2. We agree that a quantitative analysis will further clarify our conclusions, and we have revised the manuscript accordingly. For example, Figure 2—figure supplement 3 provides a detailed analysis of how the final centrosome size depends on initial size differences across various parameter values. Additionally, Appendix 3 now includes analytical estimates of the onset of size inequality as a function of these parameters.

      The analysis of the size discrepancy relies on stochastic simulations (e.g., mentioned on pages 2 and 4), but all presented equations are deterministic. It's unclear what assumptions go into these stochastic equations, and how they are analyzed or simulated. Most importantly, the noise strength (presumably linked to the number of components) needs to be mentioned. How is this noise strength determined? What are the arguments for this choice? This is particularly crucial since the authors quote quantitative results (e.g., "a negligible difference in steady-state size (∼ 2% of mean size)" on page 4).

      As described in the Methods, we used the exact Gillespie method (Gillespie, JPC, 1977) to simulate the evolution of the stochastic trajectories of the systems, corresponding to the deterministic growth and reaction kinetics outlined in the manuscript. We've expanded the Methods to include further details on the stochastic simulations and refer to Appendix 1, where we describe the chemical master equations governing autocatalytic growth..

      The noise strength (fluctuations about the mean size of centrosome) does depend on the total monomer concentration (the pool size), and this may affect size inequality. Similar values of the total monomer concentration were used in the catalytic (0.04 uM) and autocatalytic growth (0.33 uM) simulations. These values for the pool size are similar to previous studies (Zwicker et al, PNAS, 2012) and have been optimized to obtain a good fit with experimental growth curves from C. elegans embryo data.

      To present more quantitative results, we have revised our manuscript to add data showing the effect of pool size on centrosome size inequality (Figure 3 - figure supplement 2). We find the size inequality in catalytic growth to increase with decreasing pool size as the origin of this inequality is the stochastic fluctuation in individual centrosome size. The size inequality (ratio of dv/<V>) in the autocatalytic growth does not depend (strongly) on the pool size (dv and <V> both increase similarly with pool size).

      Moreover, the two sets of testable predictions that are offered at the end of the paper are not very illuminative: The first set of predictions, namely that the model would anticipate an "increase in centrosome size with increasing enzyme concentration, the ability to modify the shape of the sigmoidal growth curve, and the manipulation of centrosome size scaling patterns by perturbing growth rate constants or enzyme concentrations.", are so general that they apply to all models describing centrosome growth. Consequently, these observations do not set the shared enzyme pool apart and are thus not useful to discriminate between models. The second part of the first set of predictions about shifting "size scaling" is potentially more interesting, although I could not discern whether "size scaling" referred to scaling with cell size, total amount of material, or enzymatic activity at the centrioles. The second prediction is potentially also interesting and could be checked directly by analyzing published data of the original model (see Fig. 5 of ref. 8). It is unclear to me why the authors did not attempt this.

      In response to the reviewers' valuable feedback, we have revised the manuscript to include results on potential methods for distinguishing catalytic growth from autocatalytic growth. Since the growth dynamics of a single centrosome do not significantly differ between these two models, it is necessary to experimentally examine the growth dynamics of a centrosome pair under various initial size perturbations. In Figure 3-figure supplement 2, we present theoretical predictions for both catalytic and autocatalytic growth models, illustrating the correlation between initial and final sizes after maturation. The figure demonstrates that the initial size difference and final size difference should be correlated only in the autocatalytic growth and the relative size inequality decreases with increasing subunit pool size in catalytic growth while remains almost unchanged in autocatalytic growth. These predictions can be experimentally examined by inducing varying centrosome sizes at the early stage of maturation for different expression levels of the scaffold former proteins.

      A second experimentally testable feature of the catalytic growth model involves sharing of the enzyme between both centrosomes. This could be tested through immunofluorescent staining of the kinase or by constructing a FRET reporter for PLK1 activity, where it can be studied if the active form of the PLK1 is found in the cytoplasm around the centrosomes indicating a shared pool of active enzyme. Additionally, photoactivated localization microscopy could be employed, where fluorescently tagged enzyme can be selectively photoactivated in one centrosome and intensity can be measured at the other centrosome to find the extent of enzyme sharing between the centrosomes.

      We also discuss shifts in centrosome size scaling behavior with cell size by varying parameters of the catalytic growth model (Fig 4). While quantitative analysis of size scaling in Drosophila is currently unavailable, such an investigation could enable us to distinguish catalytic growth mode with other models. We have included this point in the Discussion section.

      “The second prediction is potentially also interesting …” We assume the reviewer is referencing the scenario in Zwicker et al. (ref 8), where differences in centriole activity lead to unequal centrosome sizes. The data in that study represent a case of centrosome growth with variable centriole activity, resulting in size differences in both autocatalytic and catalytic growth models. This differs from our proposed experiment, where we induce unequal centrosome sizes without modifying centriole activity. We have now revised the text to clarify this distinction.

      Taken together, I think the shared enzyme pool is an interesting idea, but the experimental evidence for it is currently lacking. Moreover, the model seems to make little testable predictions that differ from previous models.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s interest in the core idea of our work. As mentioned earlier, we have improved the clarity in model predictions in the revised discussion section. Unfortunately, the lack of publicly available experimental data limits our ability to provide more direct experimental evidence. However, we are hopeful that our theoretical model will inspire future experiments to test these model predictions.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, Banerjee & Banerjee argue that a solely autocatalytic assembly model of the centrosome leads to size inequality. The authors instead propose a catalytic growth model with a shared enzyme pool. Using this model, the authors predict that size control is enzyme-mediate and are able to reproduce various experimental results such as centrosome size scaling with cell size and centrosome growth curves in C. elegans.

      The paper contains interesting results and is well-written and easy to follow/understand.

      We are delighted that the reviewer finds our work interesting, and we appreciate the thoughtful suggestions provided. In response, we have revised the text and figures to incorporate these recommendations. Below, we address each of the reviewer’s comments point by point:

      Suggestions:

      ● In the Introduction, when the authors mention that their "theory is based on recent experiments uncovering the interactions of the molecular components of centrosome assembly" it would be useful to mention what particular interactions these are.

      As the reviewer suggested, we have modified the introduction section to add the experimental observations upon which we build our model.

      ● In the Results and Discussion sections, the authors note various similarities and differences between what is known regarding centrosome formation in C. elegan and Drosophila. It would have been helpful to already make such distinctions in the Introduction (where some phenomena that may be C. elegans specific are implied to hold centrosomes universally). It would also be helpful to include more comments for the possible implications for other systems in which centrosomes have been studied, such as human, Zebrafish, and Xenopus.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have modified the Introduction to motivate the comparative study of centrosome growth in different organisms and draw relevant connections to centrosome growth in other commonly studied organisms like Zebrafish and Xenopus.

      ● For Fig 1.C, the two axes are very close to being the same but are not. It makes the graph a little bit more difficult to interpret than if they were actually the same or distinctly different. It would be more useful to have them on the same scale and just have a legend.

      We have modified the Figure 1C in the revised manuscript. The plot now shows the growth of a single and a pair of centrosomes both on the same y-axis scale.

      ● The authors refer to Equation 1 as resulting from an "active liquid-liquid phase separation", but it is unclear what that means in this context because the rheology of the centrosome does not appear to be relevant.

      We used the term “active liquid-liquid phase separation” simply to refer to a previous model proposed by Zwicker et al (PNAS, 2014) where the underlying process of growth results from liquid-liquid phase separation. We agree with the reviewer that the rheological property of the centrosome is not very relevant in our discussions and we have thus removed the sentence from the revised manuscript to avoid any confusion.

      ● The authors reject the non-cooperative limit of Eq 1 because, even though it leads to size control, it does not give sigmoidal dynamics (Figure 2B). While I appreciate that this is just meant to be illustrative, I still find it to be a weak argument because I would guess a number of different minor tweaks to the model might keep size control while inducing sigmoidal dynamics, such as size-dependent addition of loss rates (which could be due to reactions happen on the surface of the centrosome instead of in its bulk, for example). Is my intuition incorrect? Is there an alternative reason to reject such possible modifications?

      The reviewer raises an interesting point here. However, we disagree with the idea that minor adjustments to the model can produce sigmoidal growth curves while still maintaining size control. In the absence of an external, time-dependent increase in building block concentration (which would lead to an increasing growth rate), achieving sigmoidal growth requires a positive feedback mechanism in the growth rate. This positive feedback alone could introduce size inequality unless shared equally between the centrosomes, as it is in our model of catalytic growth in a shared enzyme pool. The proposed modification involving size-dependent addition or loss rates due to surface assembly/disassembly may result in unequal sizes precisely because of this positive feedback. A similar example is provided in Appendix 1, where assembly and disassembly across the pericentriolic material volume lead to sigmoidal growth but also generate significant size inequality and lack of robustness in size control.

      ● While the inset of Figure 3D is visually convincing, it would be good to include a statistical test for completeness.

      Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we present a statistical analysis in Figure 3 - Figure supplement 2 in the modified manuscript to enhance clarity. We show that the size difference values are uncorrelated (Pearson’s correlation coefficient ~ 0) with the initial size difference indicating the robustness of the size regulation mechanism.

      ● The authors note that the pulse in active enzyme in their model is reminiscent of the Polo kinase pulse observed in Drosophila. Can the authors use these published experimental results to more tightly constrain what parameter regime in their model would be relevant for Drosophila? Can the authors make predictions of how this pulse might vary in other systems such as C. elegans?

      Thank you for the insightful suggestion regarding the use of pulse dynamics in experiments to better constrain the model’s parameter regime. In our revised manuscript, we attempted this analysis; however, the data from Wong et al. (EMBO 2022) for Drosophila are presented as normalized intensity in arbitrary units, rather than as quantitative measures of centrosome size or Polo enzyme concentration. This lack of quantitative data limits our ability to benchmark the model beyond capturing qualitative trends. We thus believe that quantitative measurements of centrosome size and enzyme concentration are necessary to achieve a tighter alignment between model predictions and biological data.

      We discuss the enzyme dynamics in C. elegans in the revised manuscript. We find the enzyme dynamics corresponding to the fitted growth curves of C. elegans centrosomes are distinctly different from the ones observed in Drosophila. Instead of the pulse-like feature, we find a step-like increase in (cytosolic) active enzyme concentration.

      ● The authors mention that the shared enzyme pool is likely not diffusion-limited in C. elegans embryos, but this might change in larger embryos such as Drosophila or Xenopus. It would be interesting for the authors to include a more in-depth discussion of when diffusion will or will not matter, and what the consequence of being in a diffusion-limit regime might be.

      Both the reviewers have pointed out the importance of considering diffusion effects in centrosome size dynamics, and we agree that this is important to explore. We have developed a spatially extended 3D version of the centrosome growth model, incorporating stochastic reactions and diffusion (see Appendix 4). In this model, the system is divided into small reaction volumes (voxels), where reactions depend on local density, and diffusion is modeled as the transport of monomers/building blocks between voxels.

      We find that diffusion can alter the timescales of growth, particularly when the diffusion timescale is comparable to or slower than the reaction timescale, potentially mitigating size inequality by slowing down autocatalysis. However, the main conclusions of the catalytic growth model remain unchanged, showing robust size regulation independent of diffusion constant or centrosome separation (Figure 2—figure supplement 3). Hence, we focused on the effect of subunit diffusion on the autocatalytic growth model. We find that in the presence of diffusion, the size inequality reduces with increasing diffusion timescale, i.e., increasing distance between centrosomes and decreasing diffusion constant (Figure 2—figure supplement 4). However, the lack of robustness in size control in the autocatalyic growth model remains, i.e., the final size difference increases with increasing initial size difference. Notably, in the diffusion-limited regime (very small diffusion or large distances), the growth curve loses its sigmoidal shape, resembling the behavior in the non-autocatalytic limit (Figure 2). These findings are discussed in the revised manuscript.

      ● The authors state "Firstly, our model posits the sharing of the enzyme between both centrosomes. This hypothesis can potentially be experimentally tested through immunofluorescent staining of the kinase or by constructing FRET reporter of PLK1 activity." I don't understand how such experiments would be helpful for determining if enzymes are shared between the two centrosomes. It would be helpful for the authors to elaborate.

      Our results indicate the necessity of the centrosome-activated enzyme to be shared for the robust regulation of centrosome size equality. If a FRET reporter of the active form of the enzyme (e.g., PLK1) can be constructed then the localization of the active form of the enzyme may be determined in the cytosol. We propose this based on reports of studying PLK activities in subcellular compartments using FRET as described in Allen & Zhang, BBRC (2006). Such experiments will be a direct proof of the shared enzyme pool. Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have modified the description of the FRET based possible experimental test for the shared enzyme pool hypothesis in the revised manuscript.

      Additionally, we have added another possible experimental test based on photoactivated localization microscopy (PALM), where tagged enzyme can be selectively photoactivated in one centrosome and intensity measured at the other centrosome to indicate whether the enzyme is shared between the centrosomes.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      The manuscript needs to clarify better what species the model describes, how alternative models were rejected, and how the parameters were chosen.

      In the revised manuscript, we have connect the chemical species in our model to those documented in organisms like Drosophila and C. elegans. This connection is detailed in the main text under the Catalytic Growth Model section and summarized in Table 2. We discuss alternative models and our reasons for excluding them in the first results section on autocatalytic growth, with additional details provided in Appendix 1 and the accompanying supplementary figures. The selection of model parameters is addressed in the main text and methods, with references listed in Table 1. We believe that these revisions, along with our point-by-point responses to reviewer comments, comprehensively address all reviewer concerns.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I think the style and structure of the paper could be improved on at least two accounts:

      (1) What's the role of the last section ("Multi-component centrosome model reveals the utility of shared catalysis on centrosome size control.")? It seems to simply add another component, keeping the essential structure of the model untouched. Not surprisingly, the qualitative features of the model are preserved and quantitative features are not discussed anyway.

      This model provides a more realistic description of centrosome growth by incorporating the dynamics of the two primary scaffold-forming subunits and their interactions with an enzyme. It is based on the observation that the major interaction pathways among centrosome components are conserved across many organisms (see Raff, Trends in Cell Biology, 2019 and Table 2), typically involving two scaffold-forming proteins and one enzyme that mediates positive feedback between them. These pathways may involve homologous proteins in different species.

      This model allows us to validate the experimentally observed spatial spread of the two subunits, Cnn and Spd-2, in Drosophila. Additionally, we used it to investigate the impact of relaxing the assumption of a shared enzyme pool on size control. Although similar insights could be obtained using a single-component model, the two-component model offers a more biologically relevant framework. We have highlighted these points in the revised manuscript to ensure clarity.

      (2 ) The very long discussion section is not very helpful. First, it mostly reiterates points already made in the main text. Second, it makes arguments for the choice of modeling (top left column of page 8), which probably should have been made when introducing the model. Third, it introduces new results (lower left column of page 8), which should probably be moved to the main text. Fourth, the interpretation of the model in light of the known biochemistry is useful and should probably be expanded although I think it would be crucial to keep information from different organisms clearly separate (this last point actually holds for the entire manuscript).

      We thank the reviewer for the feedback. We have modified the discussion section to focus more on the interpretation of the results, model predictions and future outlook with possible experiments to validate crucial aspects of the model. We have moved most of the justifications to the main text model description.

      Here are a few additional minor points:

      * page 1: Typo "for for" → "for"

      * Page 8: Typo "to to" → "to"

      We thank the reviewer for the useful recommendations. We have corrected all the typos in the revised manuscript.

      * Why can diffusion be neglected in Eq. 1? This is discussed only very vaguely in the main text (on page 3). Strangely, there is some discussion of this crucial initial step in the discussion section, although the diffusion time of PLK1 is compared to the centrosome growth time there and not the more relevant enzyme-mediate conversion rate or enzyme deactivation rate.

      We now discuss the justification of neglecting diffusion while motivating the model. We have added a more detailed discussion in the Methods section. We estimate the timescale of diffusion for the scaffold formers and the enzyme and compare them with the turnover timescales of the respective proteins Spd-2, Cnn and Polo. We find the proteins to diffuse fast compared to their FRAP recovery timescales indicating reaction timescales to be slower than the timescales of diffusion. Nevertheless, following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have also investigated the effect of diffusion on the growth process in Appendix 4.

      * Page 3: The comparison k_0^+ ≫ k_1^+ is meaningless without specifying the number of subunits n. I even doubt that this condition is the correct one since even if k_0^+ is two orders of magnitude larger than k_1^+, the autocatalytic term can dominate if there are many subunits.

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful comment on the comparison between the growth rates k^+_0 and k^+_1. Indeed, the pool size matters and we have now included a linear stability analysis of the autocatalytic growth equations in Appendix 3 to estimate the condition for size inequality. We have commented on these new findings in the revised manuscript.

      * The Eqs. 2-4 are difficult to follow in my mind. For instance, it is not clear why the variables N_av and N_av^E are introduced when they evidently are equivalent to S_1 and E. It would also help to explicitly mention that V_c is the cell volume. Moreover, do these equations contain any centriolar activity? If so, I could not understand what term mediates this. If not, it might be good to mention this explicitly.

      Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have modified the equations 2-4 and added the definition of V_c to enhance clarity in the revised manuscript. The centriole activity is given by k^+ in the catalytic model. We now explicitly mention it.

      * Page 4: The observed peak of active enzyme (Fig 3C) is compared to experimental observation of a PLK1 peak at centrosomes in Drosophila (ref. 28). However, if I understand correctly, the peak in the model refers to active enzyme in the entire cell (and the point of the model is that this enzymatic pool is shared everywhere), whereas the experimental measurement quantified the amount of PLK1 at the centrosome (and not the activity of the enzyme). How are the quantity in the model related to the experimental measurements?

      The reviewer is correct in pointing out the difference between the quantities calculated from our model and those measured in the experiment by Wong et al. We have clarified this point in the revised manuscript. We hypothesize that if, in future experiments, the active (phosphorylated) polo can be observed by using a possible FRET reporter of activity then the cytosolic pulse can be observed too. We discuss this point in the revised manuscript.

      * Page 6: The asymmetry due to differences in centriolar activity is apparently been done for both models (Eq. 1 and Eqs. 2-4), referring to a parameter k_0^+ in both cases. How does this parameter enter in the latter model? More generally, I don't really understand the difference in the two rows in Fig. 5 - is the top row referring to growth driven by centriolar activity while the lower row refers to pure autocatalytic growth? If so, what about the hybrid model where both mechanisms enter? This is particularly relevant, since ref. 8 claims that such a hybrid model explains growth curves of asymmetric centrosomes quantitatively. Along these lines, the analysis of asymmetric growth is quite vague and at most qualitative. Can the models also explain differential growth quantitatively?

      We believe the reviewer’s comment on centrosome size asymmetry may stem from a lack of clarity in our initial explanation. In this section, as shown in Figure 5, we compare the full autocatalytic model (where both k_0^+ and k_1^+ are non-zero) with the catalytic model. The confusion might have arisen due to an unclear definition of centriolar activity in the catalytic growth model, which we have clarified in the revised manuscript. Specifically, we use k+ in the catalytic model and k0+ in the autocatalytic model as indicators of centriolar activity.

      Our findings quantitatively demonstrate that variations in centriole activity can robustly drive size asymmetry in catalytic growth, independent of initial size differences. However, in autocatalytic growth, increased initial size differences make the system more vulnerable to a loss of regulation, as positive feedback can amplify these differences, ultimately influencing the final size asymmetry. Our results do not contradict Zwicker et al. (ref 8); rather, they complement it. We show that size asymmetry in autocatalytic growth is governed by both centriole activity and positive feedback, highlighting that centriole activity alone cannot robustly regulate centrosome size asymmetry within this framework.

      * The code for performing the simulations does not seem to be available

      We have now made the main codes available in a GitHub repository. Link: https://github.com/BanerjeeLab/Centrosome_growth_model

    1. Author response:

      We thank the reviewers for their constructive comments. While we work on a revision that addresses all points raised, we would already like to point out that both reviewers seem to have misunderstood how we reported the percentages of filament types in our reactions. Because we included all picked images in our calculations (including false positives from the picking, as well as damaged, overlapping or otherwise unsuitable filaments), we may have inadvertently given the impression that these filament preparations are not pure. In fact, the opposite is true: 0N3R PAD12 tau and the mixture of 0N3R:0N4R PAD12 tau assemble into highly pure paired helical filaments with the Alzheimer fold. Discarding images is common practice for high-resolution cryo-EM structure determination. Our reported percentages of discarded images (20-30%) are much lower than in typical cryo-EM studies, which is another reflection of the high quality of these samples. The main impurity lies in smaller fractions (~10%) of single protofilaments with the Alzheimer fold. We will make this clearer in our revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      (1) discuss the non-native properties of ROCKET and compare CDL binding in native proteins

      ROCKET is indeed a non-native protein with exceptional stability, which makes it immune to mutations with subtle effects on structure or dynamics. We would argue that this is an advantage, allowing us to find the features with the most pronounced impact on CDL-mediated stability. The reviewers are right that there certainly are other structural features which impact CDL binding, which cannot be investigated using ROCKET. This is the reason we then apply our findings to GlpG - to translate back to native systems.

      The CDL binding site geometry that we tested experimentally was derived by Corey et al (Sci Adv 2022) from large-scale computational analysis of native protein structures. Our data adds some basic rules for flexibility, which helped us to identify GlpG as a potentially CDL-regulated protein. Following the reviewers’ suggestion, we will screen the dataset from Corey et al. for experimentally confirmed examples of CDL-mediated stabilization and analyze whether they conform to the rules derived from analysis of ROCKET. In this way, we may be able to assess how general our findings are.

      (2) clarify the limitations of combining MS and nMS

      The reviewers correctly point out that there are differences between the MD and MS data: although the binding Site 1 has nearly 100% occupancy in MD, MS shows that ca 50% of the protein is CDL-free and that not all subunits in the tetramer have a CDL bound. Furthermore, MD shows that aromatic residues are important, but this is not tested by MS. Both points relate to the shortcomings of nMS, which requires desolvation, ionization, and detergent stripping to detect protein-lipid complexes. These processes can potentially affect lipid binding, e.g. by leading to loss of lipids that are not tightly bound. As a result, absolute quantitative comparisons between MD and MS are challenging, and contributions from subtle non-electrostatic interactions involving aromatic residues are difficult to detect. For this reason, we use relative changes in lipid interactions between different ROCKET variants to compare MD and MS data. We will discuss these factors in the revision.

      (3) more detailed investigation of the structure-function relationship in GlpG-CDL complexes

      We use the insights from ROCKET to identify a stabilizing CDL site in GlpG and find that CDL binding switches substrate preference from transmembrane to soluble substrates. We do not verify the binding site with mutagenesis in our study, but the MD and MS data are very unambiguous that there is only one site, and its location provides a rationale for how CDL affects substrate binding, which is described in the supplementary data.

      We agree that the regulatory effect of CDL on GlpG activity raises a wide range of interesting questions relating to the mechanism of allosteric inhibition, the evolutionary background, and biological implications of E. coli using changes in membrane CDL content to steer GlpG activity. Work in our labs is on-going to investigate this further, including the mutational analysis suggested by the reviewers, but it moves beyond of the scope of the current study. We will discuss our rationale for the absence of mutagenesis data in the revision.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer 1:

      We thank the reviewer for the time and effort in providing very useful comments and suggestions for our manuscript.

      (1) The results do not support the conclusions. The main "selling point" as summarized in the title is that the apoptotic rate of zebrafish motorneurons during development is strikingly low (~2% ) as compared to the much higher estimate (~50%) by previous studies in other systems. The results used to support the conclusion are that only a small percentage (under 2%) of apoptotic cells were found over a large population at a variety of stages 24-120hpf. This is fundamentally flawed logic, as a short-time window measure of percentage cannot represent the percentage in the long term. For example, at any year under 1% of the human population dies, but over 100 years >99% of the starting group will have died. To find the real percentage of motorneurons that died, the motorneurons born at different times must be tracked over the long term or the new motorneuron birth rate must be estimated. A similar argument can be applied to the macrophage results. Here the authors probably want to discuss well-established mechanisms of apoptotic neuron clearance such as by glia and microglia cells.

      We chose the time window of 24-120 hpf based on the following two reasons: 1) Previous studies showed that although the time windows of motor neuron death vary in chick (E5-E10), mouse (E11.5-E15.5), rat (E15-E18), and human (11-25 weeks of gestation), the common feature of these time windows is that they are all the developmental periods when motor neurons contact with muscle cells. The contact between zebrafish motor neurons and muscle cells occurs before 72 hpf, which is included in our observation time window of 24-120 hpf. 2) Zebrafish complete hatching during 48-72 hpf, and most organs form before 72 hpf. More importantly, zebrafish start swimming around 72 hpf, indicating that motor neurons are fully functional at 72 hpf. Thus, we are confident that this 24-120 hpf time window covers the time window during which motor neurons undergo programmed cell death during zebrafish early development. We have added this information to the revised manuscript.

      We frequently used “early development” in this manuscript to describe our observation. However, we missed “early” in our title. We therefore have added this ket word of “early” in the title in the revised manuscript.

      Previous studies in zebrafish have shown that the production of spinal cord motor neurons largely ceases before 48 hpf, and then the motor neurons remain largely constant until adulthood (doi: 10.1016/j.celrep.2015.09.050; 10.1016/j.devcel.2013.04.012; 10.1007/BF00304606; 10.3389/fcell.2021.640414). Our observation time window covers the major motor neuron production process. Therefore, we believe that neurogenesis will not affect our findings and conclusions.

      We discussed the engulfment of dead motor neurons by other types of cells in the discussion section.

      (2) The transgenic line is perhaps the most meaningful contribution to the field as the work stands. However, the mnx1 promoter is well known for its non-specific activation - while the images suggest the authors' line is good, motor neuron markers should be used to validate the line. This is especially important for assessing this population later as mnx1 may be turned off in mature neurons.

      The mnx1 promoter has been widely used to label motor neurons in transgenic zebrafish. Previous studies have shown that most of the cells labeled in the mnx1 transgenic zebrafish are motor neurons. In this study, we observed that the neuronal cells in our sensor zebrafish formed green cell bodies inside of the spinal cord and extended to the muscle region, which is an important morphological feature of the motor neurons.

      Reviewer 2:

      We thank the reviewer for the time and effort in making very useful comments and suggestions for our manuscript.

      The FRET-based programmed cell death biosensor described in this manuscript could be very useful. However, the authors have not considered what is already known about the development and programmed cell death of zebrafish spinal motor neurons, and potential differences between motor neuron populations innervating different types of muscles in different vertebrate models. Without this context, the application of their new biosensor tool does not provide new insights into zebrafish motor neuron programmed cell death. In addition, the authors have not carried out controls to show the efficacy and specificity of their morpholinos. Nor have they described how they counted dying motor neurons, or why they chose the specific developmental time points they addressed. These issues are addressed more specifically below.

      (1) Lines 12-13: Previous studies in zebrafish showed death of identified spinal motor neurons.

      Line 103: In Figure 2A the cell body in the middle is that of identified motor neuron VaP. VaP death has previously been described in several publications. The cell body on the right of the same panel appears to belong to an interneuron whose axon can be seen extending off to the left in one of the rostrocaudal axon bundles that traverse the spinal cord. Higher-resolution imaging would clarify this.

      Lines 163-164: Is this the absolute number of motor neurons that died? How were the counts done? Were all the motor neurons in every segment counted? There are approximately 30 identifiable VaP motor neurons in each embryo and they have previously been reported to die between 24-36 hpf. So this analysis is likely capturing those cells.

      Our study examined the overall motor neuron apoptosis rather than a specific type of motor neuron death, so we did not emphasize the death of VaP motor neurons. We agree that the dead motor neurons observed in our manuscript contain VaP motor neurons. However, there were also other types of dead motor neurons observed in our study. The reasons are as follows: 1) VaP primary motor neurons die before 36 hpf, but our study found motor neuron cells died after 36 hpf and even at 84 hpf (revised Figure 4A). 2) The position of the VaP motor neuron is together with that of the CaP motor neuron, that is, at the caudal region of the motor neuron cluster. Although it’s rare, we did observe the death of motor neurons in the rostral region of the motor neuron cluster (revised Figure 2C). 3) There is only one or zero VaP motor neuron in each motor neuron cluster. Although our data showed that usually one motor neuron died in each motor neuron cluster, we did observe that sometimes more than one motor neuron died in the motor neuron cluster (revised Figure 2C). We included this information in the revised discussion.

      (2) Lines 82-83: It is published that mnx1 is expressed in at least one type of spinal interneuron derived from the same embryonic domain as motor neurons.

      The mnx1 promoter has been widely used to label motor neurons in transgenic zebrafish. Previous studies have shown that most of the cells labeled in the mnx1 transgenic zebrafish are motor neurons. In this study, we observed that the neuronal cells in our sensor zebrafish formed green cell bodies inside of the spinal cord and extended to the muscle region, which is an important morphological feature of the motor neurons.

      Furthermore, a few of those green cell bodies turned into blue apoptotic bodies inside the spinal cord and changed to blue axons in the muscle regions at the same time, which strongly suggests that those apoptotic neurons are not interneurons. Although the mnx1 promoter might have labeled some interneurons, this will not affect our major finding that only a small portion of motor neurons died during zebrafish early development.

      (3) Lines 161-162: Although this may be the major time window of neurogenesis, there are many more motor neurons in adults than in larvae. Neither of these references describes the increase in motor neuron numbers over this particular time span, so the rationale for this choice is unclear.

      Lines 168-171: It is known that later developing motor neurons are still being generated in the spinal cord at this time, suggesting that if there is a period of programmed cell death similar to that described in chick and mouse, it would likely occur later. In addition, most of the chick and mouse studies were performed on limb-innervating motor neurons, rather than the body wall muscle-innervating motor neurons examined here.

      Lines 237-238: Especially since new motor neurons are still being generated at this time.

      Previous studies have shown that the production of spinal cord motor neurons largely ceases before 48 hpf in zebrafish, and then the motor neurons remain largely constant until the adulthood (doi: 10.1016/j.celrep.2015.09.050; 10.1016/j.devcel.2013.04.012; 10.1007/BF00304606; 10.3389/fcell.2021.640414). Our observation time window covers the major motor neuron production process. Therefore, we believe that neurogenesis will not affect our data and conclusions.

      The death of motor neurons in limb-innervating motor neurons has been extensively studied in chicks and rodents, as it is easy to undergo operations such as amputation. However, previous studies have shown this dramatic motor neuron death does not only occur in limb-innervating motor neurons but also occurs in other spinal cord motor neurons (doi: 10.1006/dbio.1999.9413). In our manuscript, we studied the naturally occurring motor neuron death in the whole spinal cord during the early stage of zebrafish development.

      (4) Lines 184-187: Previous publications showed that death of VaP is independent of limitations in muscle innervation area, suggesting it is not coupled to muscle-derived neurotrophic factors.

      Lines 328-334: There have been many publications describing appropriate morpholino controls. The authors need to describe their controls and show that they know that the genes they were targeting were downregulated.

      For the morpholinos, we did not confirm the downregulation of the target genes. These morpholino-related data are a minor part of our manuscript and shall not affect our major findings. We have removed the neurotrophic factors and morpholino-related data in the revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study demonstrates the significant role of secretory leukocyte protease inhibitor (SLPI) in regulating B. burgdorferi-induced periarticular inflammation in mice. They found that SLPI-deficient mice showed significantly higher B. burgdorferi infection burden in ankle joints compared to wild-type controls. This increased infection was accompanied by infiltration of neutrophils and macrophages in periarticular tissues, suggesting SLPI's role in immune regulation. The authors strengthened their findings by demonstrating a direct interaction between SLPI and B. burgdorferi through BASEHIT library screening and FACS analysis. Further investigation of SLPI as a target could lead to valuable clinical applications.

      The conclusions of this paper are mostly well supported by data, but two aspects need attention:

      (1) Cytokine Analysis:

      The serum cytokine/chemokine profile analysis appears without TNF-alpha data. Given TNF-alpha's established role in inflammatory responses, comparing its levels between wild-type and infected B. burgdorferi conditions would provide valuable insight into the inflammatory mechanism.

      (2) Sample Size Concerns:

      While the authors note limitations in obtaining Lyme disease patient samples, the control group is notably smaller than the patient group. This imbalance should either be addressed by including additional healthy controls or explicitly justified in the methodology section.

      We thank the reviewer for the careful review and positive comments.

      (1) We did look into the level of TNF-alpha in both WT and SLPI-/- mice with and without B. burgdorferi infection. At serum level, using ELISA, we did not observe any significant difference between all four groups. At gene expression level, using RT-qPCR on the tibiotarsal tissue, we also did not observe any significant differences. Our RT-qPCR result is consistent with the previous microarray study using the whole murine joint tissue (DOI: 10.4049/jimmunol.177.11.7930). The microarray study did not show significant changes in TNF-alpha level in C57BL/6 mice following B. burgdorferi infection. The above data suggest that TNF-alpha does not involve in SLPI-regulated immune responses in the murine tibiotarsal tissue following B. burgdorferi infection. A brief discussion will be added, and the above data will be provided as a supplemental figure in the revised manuscript.

      (2) We agree with the reviewer that the control group is smaller than the patient group. Among the archived samples that are available, the number of adult healthy controls are limited. It has been shown that the serum level of SLPI in healthy volunteers is in average about 40 ng/ml  (DOI: 10.3389/fimmu.2019.00664 and 10.1097/00003246-200005000-00003). The median level in the healthy control in our data was 38.92 ng/ml, which is comparable to the previous results. A brief discussion will be added in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript by Yu and coworkers investigates the potential role of Secretory leukocyte protease inhibitor (SLPI) in Lyme arthritis. They show that, after needle inoculation of the Lyme disease (LD) agent, B. burgdorferi, compared to wild type mice, a SLPI-deficient mouse suffers elevated bacterial burden, joint swelling and inflammation, pro-inflammatory cytokines in the joint, and levels of serum neutrophil elastase (NE). They suggest that SLPI levels of Lyme disease patients are diminished relative to healthy controls. Finally, they find that SLPI may interact directly the B. burgdorferi.

      Strengths:

      Many of these observations are interesting and the use of SLPI-deficient mice is useful (and has not previously been done).

      We appreciate the reviewer’s careful reading and positive comments.

      Weaknesses:

      (a) The known role of SLPI in dampening inflammation and inflammatory damage by inhibition of NE makes the enhanced inflammation in the joint of B. burgdorferi-infected mice a predicted result;

      We agree that the observation of the elevated NE level and the enhanced inflammation is theoretically likely. Indeed, that was the hypothesis that we explored, and often what is theoretically possible does not turn out to occur. In addition, despite the known contribution of neutrophils to the severity of murine Lyme arthritis, the importance of the neutrophil serine proteases and anti-protease has not been specifically studied, and neutrophils secrete many factors. Therefore, our data fill an important gap in the knowledge of murine Lyme arthritis development – and set the stage for the further exploration of this hypothesis in the genesis of human Lyme arthritis.

      (b) The potential contribution of the greater bacterial burden to the enhanced inflammation is not addressed;

      We agree with the reviewer’s viewpoint that the increased infection burden in the tibiotarsal tissue of the infected SLPI-/- mice could contribute to the enhanced inflammation. A brief discussion of this possibility will be added to the revised manuscript.

      (c) The relationship of SLPI binding by B. burgdorferi to the enhanced disease of SLPI-deficient mice is not clear; and

      We agree with the reviewer that we have not shown the importance of the SLPI-B. burgdorferi binding in the development of periarticular inflammation. It is an ongoing project in our lab to identify the SLPI binding partner in B. burgdorferi. Our hypothesis is that SLPI could bind and inhibit an unknown B. burgdorferi virulence factor that contributes to murine Lyme arthritis. We will include the above discussion in the revised manuscript.

      (d) Several methodological aspects of the study are unclear.

      We appreciate the critique and will modify the method session in greater detail in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors investigated the role of secretory leukocyte protease inhibitors (SLPI) in developing Lyme disease in mice infected with Borrelia burgdorferi. Using a combination of histological, gene expression, and flow cytometry analyses, they demonstrated significantly higher bacterial burden and elevated neutrophil and macrophage infiltration in SLPI-deficient mouse ankle joints. Furthermore, they also showed direct interaction of SLPI with B. burgdorferi, which likely depletes the local environment of SLPI and causes excessive protease activity. These results overall suggest ankle tissue inflammation in B. burgdorferi-infected mice is driven by unchecked protease activity.

      Strengths:

      Utilizing a comprehensive suite of techniques, this is the first study showing the importance of anti-protease-protease balance in the development of periarticular joint inflammation in Lyme disease.

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer’s careful reading and positive comments.

      Weaknesses:

      Due to the limited sample availability, the authors investigated the serum level of SLPI in both in Lyme arthritis patients and patients with earlier disease manifestations.

      We agree with the reviewer that it would be ideal to have more samples from Lyme arthritis patients. However, among the available archived samples, samples from Lyme arthritis patients are limited. For the samples from patients with single EM, the symptom persisted into 3-4 month after diagnosis, the same timeframe when arthritis is developed. We will add the above discussion in the revised manuscript.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) In Figure 2, for histological scoring, do they have similar n numbers?

      In panel B, 20 infected WT mice and 19 infected SLPI-/- mice were examined. In panel D, 13 infected WT and SLPI-/- mice were examined. Without infection, WT and SLPI-/- mice do not develop spontaneous arthritis. Due to the slow breeding of the SLPI-/- mice, a small number of uninfected control animals were used.

      (2) In Figure 3, for macrophage population analysis, maybe consider implementing Ly6G-negative gating strategy to prevent neutrophil contamination in macrophage population?

      We appreciate reviewer’s suggestion. We will analyze the data using the Ly6G-negative gating strategy and provide the result in a supplemental figure. We will compare the results using the two gating strategies in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The investigators should address the possibility that much of the enhanced inflammatory features of infected SLPI-deficient mice are simply due to the higher bacterial load in the joint.

      We agree with the reviewer’s viewpoint that the increased infection burden in the tibiotarsal tissue of the infected SLPI-/- mice could contribute to the enhanced inflammation. A brief discussion of this possibility will be added to the revised manuscript.

      (2) Fig. 1. (A) There is no statistically significant difference in the bacterial load in the heart or skin, in contrast to the tibiotarsal joint. It would be of interest to know whether other tissues that are routinely sampled to assess the bacterial load, such as injection site, knee, and bladder, also harbored increased bacterial load in SLPI-deficient mice. (B) Heart and joint burden were measured at "21-28" days. The two time points should be analyzed separately rather than pooled.

      (A) We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion. We agree that looking into the infection load in other tissues is helpful. However, studies into murine Lyme arthritis have been predominantly focused on tibiotarsal tissue, which displays the most consistent and prominent swelling that’s easy to observe and measure. Thus, we focused on the tibiotarsal joint in our study. (B) We collected the heart and joint tissue approximately 3-week post infection within a 3-day window based on the feasibility and logistics of the laboratory. Using “21-28 d”, we meant to describe between 21-24 days post infection. We apologize for the mislabeling and will correct it in the revised manuscript, stating approximately 3 weeks in the results, and defining approximately 3-weeks as between 21-24 days in the methods.

      (3) Fig. 2. (A) The same ambiguity as to the days post-infection as cited above in Point 2B exists in this figure. (B) Panel B: Caliper measurements to assess joint swelling should be utilized rather than visual scoring. (In addition, the legend should make clear that the black circles represent mock-infected mice.)

      (A) The histology scoring, and histopathology examination were performed at the same time as heart and joint tissue collection, approximately 3 weeks post infection within a 3-day window based on the feasibility and logistics of the laboratory. We apologize for the mislabeling and will correct it in the revised manuscript.  (B) We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion. However, our extensive experience is that caliper measurement can alter the assessment of swelling by placing pressure on the joints and did not produce consistent results. Double blinded scoring was thus performed. Histopathology examination was performed by an independent pathologist and confirmed the histology score and provided additional measurements.

      (4) Fig. 3. (A) See Point 2B. (B) For Panels C-E, uninfected controls are lacking.

      We apologize for this omission. Uninfected controls will be provided in the revised manuscript.

      (5) Fig. 4. Fig. 4. Some LD subjects were sampled multiple times (5 samples from 3 subjects with Lyme arthritis; 13 samples from 4 subjects with EM), and samples from same individuals apparently are treated as biological replicates in the statistical analysis. In contrast, the 5 healthy controls were each sampled only once.

      We agree with the reviewer that the control group is smaller than the patient group. Among the archived samples that are available, the number of adult healthy controls are limited, and sampled once. We used these samples to establish the baseline level of SLPI in the serum. It has been shown that the serum level of SLPI in healthy volunteers is in average about 40 ng/ml  (DOI: 10.3389/fimmu.2019.00664 and 10.1097/00003246-200005000-00003). The median level in the healthy control in our data was 38.92 ng/ml, which is comparable to the previous results. A brief discussion will be added in the revised manuscript.

      (6) Fig. 5. (A) Panel A: does binding occur when intact bacteria are used? (B) Panels B, C: Were bacteria probed with PI to indicate binding likely to occur to surface? How many biological replicates were performed for each panel? Is "antibody control" a no SLPI control? What is the blue line?

      Actively growing B. burgdorferi were collected and used for binding assays. We do not permeabilize the bacteria for flow cytometry. Thus, all the binding detected occurs to the bacterial surface. Three biological replicates were performed for each panel. The antibody control is no SLPI control. For panel D, the bacteria were stained with Hoechst, which shows the morphology of bacteria. We apologize for the missing information. A complete and detailed description of Figure 5 will be provided in the revised manuscript. 

      (7) Sup Fig. 1. (A) Panel A: Was this experiment performed multiple times? I.e., how many biological replicates? (B) Panel B: Strain should be specified.

      The binding assay to B. burgdorferi B31A was performed two times. In panel B, B. burgdorferi B31A3 was used. We apologize for the missing information. A complete and detailed description will be provided in the revised manuscript. 

      (8) Fig. S2. It is not clear that the condition (20% serum) has any bactericidal activity, so the potential protective activity of SLPI cannot be determined. (Typical serum killing assays in the absence of specific antibody utilized 40% serum.)

      In Fig. S2, panel B, the first two bars (without SLPI, with 20% WT anti serum) showed around 40% viability. It indicates that the 20% WT anti serum has bactericidal activity. Serum was collected from B. burgdorferi-infected WT mice at 21 dpi, which should contain polyclonal antibody against B. burgdorferi.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      It was a pleasure to review! I congratulate the authors on this elegant study. I think the manuscript is very well-written and clearly conveys the research outcomes. I only have minor suggestions to improve the readability of the text.

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer’s recognition of our work.

      Line 92: Please briefly summarize the key results of the study at the end of the introduction section.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion. A brief summary will be added in the revised manuscript.

      Line 108: Why is the inflammation significantly occurred only in ankle joints of SLPI-I mice? Could you please provide a brief explanation?

      The inflammation may also happen in other joints the B. burgdorferi infected SLPI-/- mice, which has not been studied. The study into murine Lyme arthritis has been predominantly done in the tibiotarsal tissue, which displays the most prominent swelling that’s easy to observe and measure. Thus, we focused on the tibiotarsal joint in our study.

      Line 136: Please also include the gene names in Figure 3.

      We apologize for the omission. Gene names will be included in the revised manuscript.

      Line 181: Please briefly introduce BASEHIT. Why did you use this tool? What are the benefits?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion. We will provide more background information on BASEHIT in the revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      We thank the three Reviewers for the extensive evaluation of our work, which was largely positive and constructive. Prompted by their reviews and the many suggestions, we plan to do additional control experiments to add further data in a revised manuscript in order to improve the statistics and quantitation. Furthermore, we plan to expand the discussion. We agree that a more comprehensive mechanistic framework would be welcome but note that the system is a complex multicomponent system which is challenging. We plan to expand the work in future follow-up research.

    1. Author response:

      eLife Assessment

      This important study reveals a role for IκBα in the regulation of embryonic stem cell pluripotency. The solid data in mouse embryonic stem cells include separation of function mutations in IκBα to dissect its non-canonical role as a chromatin regulator and its canonical function as NF-κB inhibitor. The conclusions could be strengthened by including better markers of differentiation status and additional controls or orthogonal approaches.

      We are thankful to the two reviewers and editors for their kind feedback and for highlighting the impact of NF-kB-independent IkBa function in stabilizing naïve pluripotency.

      In order to address reviewer’s comments, we will perform further analysis of differentiation trajectories, as well as a deeper comparison of the epigenetic features in our IkBa-KO mESCs with the Serum/LIF and 2i/LIF conditions. Moreover, we recognize that some sentences need to be modified to soften our conclusions in terms of effects on block in the naïve state or the global epigenetic effects, as the reviewers pointed out.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study probes the role of the NF-κB inhibitor IκBa in the regulation of pluripotency in mouse embyronic stem cells (mESCs). It follows from previous work that identified a chromatin-specific role for IκBa in the regulation of tissue stem cell differentiation. The work presented here shows that a fraction of IκBa specifically associates with chromatin in pluripotent stem cells. Using three Nfkbia-knockout lines, the authors show that IκBa ablation impairs the exit from pluripotency, with embryonic bodies (an in vitro model of mESC multi-lineage differentiation) still expressing high levels of pluripotency markers after sustained exposure to differentiation signals. The maintenance of aberrant pluripotency gene expression under differentiation conditions is accompanied by pluripotency-associated epigenetic profiles of DNA methylation and histone marks. Using elegant separation of function mutants identified in a separate study, the authors generate versions of IκBa that are either impaired in histone/chromatin binding or NF-κB binding. They show that the provision of the WT IκBa, or the NF-κB-binding mutant can rescue the changes in gene expression driven by loss of IκBa, but the chromatin-binding mutant can not. Thus the study identifies a chromatin-specific, NF-κB-independent role of IκBa as a regulator of exit from pluripotency.

      Strengths:

      The strengths of the manuscript lie in: (a) the use of several orthogonal assays to support the conclusions on the effects of exit from pluripotency; (b) the use of three independent clonal Nfkbia-KO mESC lines (lacking IκBa), which increase confidence in the conclusions; and (c) the use of separation of function mutants to determine the relative contributions of the chromatin-associated and NF-κB-associated IκBa, which would otherwise be very difficult to unpick.

      Weaknesses:

      In this reviewer's view, the term "differentiation" is used inappropriately in this manuscript. The data showing aberrant expression of pluripotency markers during embryoid body formation are supported by several lines of evidence and are convincing. However, the authors call the phenotype of Nfkbia-KO cells a "differentiation impairment" while the data on differentiation markers are not shown (beyond the fact that H3K4me1, marking poised enhancers, is reduced in genes underlying GO processes associated with differentiation and organ development). Data on differentiation marker expression from the transcriptomic and embryoid body immunofluorescent experiments, for example, should be at hand without the need to conduct many more experiments and would help to support the conclusions of the study or make them more specific. The lack of probing the differentiation versus pluripotency genes may be a missed opportunity in gaining in-depth understanding of the phenotype associated with loss of the chromatin-associated function of IκBa.

      Specific answer to weaknesses for Reviewer 1:

      We have data showing the lack of expression of specific differentiation markers that we will add to the manuscript. Moreover, we will also globally analyse differentiation markers in our transcriptomic data to have a more accurate description of the phenotype.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript investigates the role of IκBα in regulating mouse embryonic stem cell (ESC) pluripotency and differentiation. The authors demonstrate that IκBα knockout impairs the exit from the naïve pluripotent state during embryoid body differentiation. Through mechanistic studies using various mutants, they show that IκBα regulates ESC differentiation through chromatin-related functions, independent of the canonical NF-κB pathway.

      Strengths:

      The authors nicely investigate the role of IκBα in pluripotency exit, using embryoid body formation and complementing the phenotypic analysis with a number of genome-wide approaches, including transcriptomic, histone marks deposition, and DNA methylation analyses. Moreover, they generate a first-of-its-kind mutant set that allows them to uncouple IκBα's function in chromatin regulation versus its NF-κB-related functions. This work contributes to our understanding of cellular plasticity and development, potentially interesting a broad audience including developmental biologists, chromatin biology researchers, and cell signaling experts.

      Weaknesses:

      - The study's main limitation is the lack of crucial controls using bona fide naïve cells across key experiments, including DNA methylation analysis, gene expression profiling in embryoid bodies, and histone mark deposition. This omission makes it difficult to evaluate whether the observed changes in IκBα-KO cells truly reflect naïve pluripotency characteristics.

      - Several conclusions in the manuscript require a more measured interpretation. The authors should revise their statements regarding the strength of the pluripotency exit block, the extent of hypomethylation, and the global nature of chromatin changes.

      - From a methodological perspective, the manuscript would benefit from additional orthogonal approaches to strengthen the knockout findings, which may be influenced by clonal expansion of ES cells.

      Overall, this study makes an important contribution to the field. However, the concerns raised regarding controls, data interpretation, and methodology should be addressed to strengthen the manuscript and support the authors' conclusions.

      Specific answer to weaknesses for Reviewer 2:

      - As the reviewer pointed out, we have not performed all the analysis by comparing with cells in 2i LIF since our initial study was focused on Serum LIF and differentiation. However, it was the transcriptome analysis in Serum LIF which showed that KO cells resembled naïve ES cells in 2i LIF by GSEA. We have repeated key experiments with all conditions (Figure 1B, 1D, Figure 3C and 3), but we do not think that repeating all ‘omics’ experiments with 2i LIF conditions will add important information. Nevertheless, we will analyze different chromatin data (DNA methylation and different histone post-translational modifications) from previously published works in 2i/LIF and Serum/LIF and compare them with our IκBα-WT and IκBα-KO mESCs to better confirm the stabilization of the ground state pluripotency in IκBα-KO mESCs under Serum/LIF conditions.

      - We agree about reducing the strength of the pluripotency exit block, extend of hypomethylation and the global nature of chromatin changes. There are many changes in the chromatin that we are trying to better characterize by HiC in ongoing studies that are out of the scope of this manuscript.

      We have performed studies in 3 different IkBa KO and WT clones. In addition, the reconstitution studies with IkBa separation-of-function (SOF) mutants with differential effect after expressing the NFkB binding form (IkBaDChrom) or the chromatin binding form (IkBaDNFkB) also support the robustness of this phenotype.

    1. Author response:

      We thank the three reviewers for their insightful feedback. We look forward to addressing the raised concerns in a revised version of the manuscript. There were a few common themes among the reviews that we will briefly touch upon now, and we will provide more details in the revised manuscript. 

      First, the reviewers asked for the reasoning behind the task ratios we implemented for the different attentional width conditions. The different ratios were selected to be as similar as possible given the size and spacing of our stimuli (aside from the narrowest cue width of one bin, the ratios for the others were 0.67, 0.60, and 0.67). As Figure 1b shows, task accuracy showed small and non-monotonic changes across the three larger cue widths, dissociable from the monotonic pattern seen for the model-estimated width of the attentional field. Furthermore, prior work has indicated that there is a relationship between task difficulty and the overall magnitude of the BOLD response, however we don’t suspect that this will influence the width of the modulation. How task difficulty influences the BOLD response is an important topic, and we hope that future work will investigate this relationship more directly.   

      Second, reviewers expressed interest in the distribution of spatial attention in higher visual areas. In our study we focus only on early visual regions (V1-V3). This was primarily driven by pragmatic considerations, in that we only have retinotopic estimates for our participants in these early visual areas. Our modeling approach is dependent on having access to the population receptive field estimates for all voxels, and while the main experiment was scanned using whole brain coverage, retinotopy was measured in a separate session using a field of view only covering the occipital cortex.  

      Lastly, we appreciate the opportunity to clarify the purpose of the temporal interval analysis. The reviewer is correct in assuming we set out to test how much data is needed to recover the cortical modulation and how dynamic a signal the method can capture. This analysis does show that more data provided more reliable estimates. The more important finding, however, is that the model was still able to recover the location and width of the attentional cue at shorter timescales of as few as two TRs. This has implications for the potential applicability of our approach to paradigms that involve more dynamic adaptation of the attentional field.

    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This a comprehensive study that sheds light on how Wag31 functions and localises in mycobacterial cells. A clear link to interactions with CL is shown using a combination of microscopy in combination with fusion fluorescent constructs, and lipid specific dyes. Furthermore, studies using mutant versions of Wag31 shed light on the functionalities of each domain in the protein. My concerns/suggestions for the manuscript are minor:

      (1) Ln 130. A better clarification/discussion is required here. It is clear that both depletion and overexpression have an effect on levels of various lipids, but subsequent descriptions show that they affect different classes of lipids.

      We thank the reviewer for the comments. We will improve Ln130 in the manuscript. The lipid classes that get impacted by the depletion of Wag31 vs overexpression are different. Wag31 is an adaptor protein that interacts with proteins of the ACCase complex (Meniche et al., 2014; Xu et al., 2014) that synthesize fatty acid precursors and regulate their activity (Habibi Arejan et al., 2022).

      The varied response to lipid homeostasis could be attributed to a change in the stoichiometry of these interactions with Wag31. While Wag31 depletion would prevent such interactions from occurring and might affect lipid synthesis that directly depends on Wag31-protein partner interactions, its overexpression would lead to promiscuous interactions and a change in the stoichiometry of native interactions, ultimately modulating lipid synthesis pathways.

      (2) The pulldown assays results are interesting, but links are tentative.

      The interactome of Wag31 was identified through the immunoprecipitation of Flag-tagged Wag31 complemented at an integrative locus in Wag31 mutant background to avoid overexpression artifacts. We used Msm::gfp expressing an integrative copy (at L5 locus) of FLAG-GFP as a control to subtract non-specific interactions. The experiment was performed in biological triplicates, and interactors that appeared in all replicates were selected for further analysis. Although we identified more than 100 interactors of Wag31, we analyzed only the top 25 hits, with a PSM cut-off ≥18 and unique peptides≥5. Additionally, two of Wag31's established interactors, AccD5 and Rne, were among the top five hits, thus validating our data.

      Though we agree that the interactions can either be direct or through a third partner, the fact that we obtained known interactors of Wag31 makes us believe these interactions are genuine. Moreover, we performed pulldown experiments for validation by mixing E. coli lysates expressing His-Wag31 full-length or truncated protein with M. smegmatis lysates expressing FLAG-tagged interacting proteins. The wash conditions used were quite stringent for these pull-down assays—the wash buffer contained 1% Triton X100, eliminating all non-specific and indirect interactions.  However, we agree that we cannot conclusively state that the interactions are direct without purifying the proteins and performing the experiment. We will describe this caveat in the revised manuscript. 

      (3) The authors may perhaps like to rephrase claims of effects lipid homeostasis, as my understanding is that lipid localisation rather than catabolism/breakdown is affected.

      In this manuscript, we are trying to convey that Wag31 is a spatiotemporal regulator of lipid metabolism. It is a peripheral protein that is hooked to the membrane via Cardiolipin and forms a scaffold at the poles, which helps localize several enzymes involved in lipid metabolism.

      Homeostasis is the process by which an organism maintains a steady-state of balance and stability in response to changes.  Depletion of Wag31 not only results in delocalisation of lipids in intracellular lipid inclusions but also leads to changes in the levels of various lipid classes. Advancement in the field of spatial biology underscores the importance of native localization of various biological molecules crucial for maintaining a steady-cell of the cell. Hence, we have used the word “homeostasis” to describe both the changes observed in lipid metabolism.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary

      Kapoor et. al. investigated the role of the mycobacterial protein Wag31 in lipid and peptidoglycan synthesis and sought to delineate the role of the N- and C- terminal domains of Wag31. They demonstrated that modulating Wag31 levels influences lipid homeostasis in M. smegmatis and cardiolipin (CL) localisation in cells. Wag31 was found to preferentially bind CL-containing liposomes, and deleting the N-terminus of the protein significantly decreased this interaction. Novel interactions between Wag31 and proteins involved in lipid metabolism and cell wall synthesis were identified, suggesting that Wag31 recruits proteins to the intracellular membrane domain by direct interaction.

      Strengths:

      (1) The importance of Wag31 in maintaining lipid homeostasis is supported by several lines of evidence.

      (2) The interaction between Wag31 and cardiolipin, and the role of the N-terminus in this interaction was convincingly demonstrated.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) MS experiments provide some evidence for novel protein-protein interactions. However, the pull-down experiments lack a valid negative control.

      We thank the reviewer for the comments. We will include a valid negative control in the experiment. We would choose ~2 mycobacterial proteins that are not a part of our interactome study and perform a similar pull-down experiment with them and a positive control (known interactor of Wag31).

      (2) The role of the N-terminus in the protein-protein interaction has not been ruled out.

      Previously, we attempted to express the N-terminal (1-60 aa) and the C-terminal (60-212 aa) proteins in various mycobacterial shuttle vectors to perform MS/MS experiments. Despite numerous efforts, neither was expressed with the N/C-terminal FLAG tag nor without any tag in episomal or integrative vectors due to the instability of the protein. Eventually, we successfully expressed the C-terminal Wag31 with an N and C-terminal hexa-His tag. However, this expression was not sufficient or stable enough for us to perform Ni affinity pull-down experiments for mass spectrometry.  The N-terminal of Wag31 could not be expressed in M. smegmatis even with N and C-terminal Hexa-His tags.

      To rule out the role of the N-terminal in mediating protein-protein interactions, we plan to attempt to express N-terminal of Wag31with N and C-terminal hexa-His tag in E. coli. If this clone successfully expresses in E. coli, we will perform pull-down experiments as described in Figure 7.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript describes the characterization of mycobacterial cytoskeleton protein Wag31, examining its role in orchestrating protein-lipid and protein-protein interactions essential for mycobacterial survival. The most significant finding is that Wag31, which directs polar elongation and maintains the intracellular membrane domain, was revealed to have membrane tethering capabilities.

      Strengths:

      The authors provided a detailed analysis of Wag31 domain architecture, revealing distinct functional roles: the N-terminal domain facilitates lipid binding and membrane tethering, while the C-terminal domain mediates protein-protein interactions. Overall, this study offers a robust and new understanding of Wag31 function.

      Weaknesses:

      The following major concerns should be addressed.

      • Authors use 10-N-Nonyl-acridine orange (NAO) as a marker for cardiolipin localization. However, given that NAO is known to bind to various anionic phospholipids, how do the authors know that what they are seeing is specifically visualizing cardiolipin and not a different anionic phospholipid? For example, phosphatidylinositol is another abundant anionic phospholipid in mycobacterial plasma membrane.

      We thank the reviewer for the comments. Despite its promiscuous binding to other anionic phospholipids, 10-N-Nonyl-acridine orange is widely used to stain Cardiolipin and determine its localisation in bacterial cells and mitochondria of eukaryotes (Garcia Fernandez et al., 2004; Mileykovskaya & Dowhan, 2000; Renner & Weibel, 2011).  This is because it has a stronger affinity for Cardiolipin than other anionic phospholipids with the affinity constant being 2 × 10<sup>6</sup> M<sup>−1</sup> for Cardiolipin association and 7 × 10<sup>4</sup> M<sup>−1</sup> for that of phosphatidylserine and phosphatidylinositol association (Petit et al., 1992). Additionally, there is not yet another stain available for detecting Cardiolipin. Our protein-lipid binding assays suggest that Wag31 preferentially binds to Cardiolipin over other anionic phospholipids (Fig. 4b), hence it is likely that the majority of redistribution of NAO fluorescence that we observe might be contributed by Cardiolipin mislocalization due to altered Wag31 levels, with smaller degree of NAO redistribution intensity coming indirectly from other anionic phospholipids displaced from the membrane due to the loss of membrane integrity and cell shape changes due to Wag31.

      • Authors' data show that the N-terminal region of Wag31 is important for membrane tethering. The authors' data also show that the N-terminal region is important for sustaining mycobacterial morphology. However, the authors' statement in Line 256 "These results highlight the importance of tethering for sustaining mycobacterial morphology and survival" requires additional proof. It remains possible that the N-terminal region has another unknown activity, and this yet-unknown activity rather than the membrane tethering activity drives the morphological maintenance. Similarly, the N-terminal region is important for lipid homeostasis, but the statement in Line 270, "the maintenance of lipid homeostasis by Wag31 is a consequence of its tethering activity" requires additional proof. The authors should tone down these overstatements or provide additional data to support their claims.

      We agree with the reviewer that there exists a possibility for another function of the N-terminal that may contribute to sustaining mycobacterial physiology and survival. We would revise our statements in the paper to accurately reflect the data. Results shown suggest that the tethering activity of the N-terminal region may contribute to mycobacterial morphology and survival. However, additional functions of this region can’t be ruled out. Similarly, the maintenance of lipid homeostasis by Wag31 may be associated with its tethering activity, although other mechanisms could also contribute to this process. 

      • Authors suggest that Wag31 acts as a scaffold for the IMD (Fig. 8). However, Meniche et. al. has shown that MurG as well as GlfT2, two well-characterized IMD proteins, do not colocalize with Wag31 (DivIVA) (https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1402158111). IMD proteins are always slightly subpolar while Wag31 is located to the tip of the cell. Therefore, the authors' biochemical data cannot be easily reconciled with microscopic observations in the literature. This raises a question regarding the validity of protein-protein interaction shown in Figure 7. Since this pull-down assay was conducted by mixing E. coli lysate expressing Wag31 and Msm lysate expression Wag31 interactors like MurG, it is possible that the interactions are not direct. Authors should interpret their data more cautiously. If authors cannot provide additional data and sufficient justifications, they should avoid proposing a confusing model like Figure 8 that contradicts published observations.

      In the literature, MurG and GlfT2 have been shown to have polar localization (Freeman et al., 2023; Hayashi et al., 2016; Kado et al., 2023), and two groups have shown slightly sub-polar localization of MurG (García-Heredia et al., 2021; Meniche et al., 2014). Additionally, (Freeman et al., 2023) they showed SepIVA to be a spatio-temporal regulator of MurG. MS/MS analysis of Wag31 immunoprecipitation data yielded both MurG and SepIVA to be interactors of Wag31 (Fig. 3). Given Wag31 also displays polar localisation, it likely associates with the polar MurG. However, since a sub-polar localization of MurG has also been reported, it is possible that they do not interact directly, and another protein mediates their interaction. We will modify the model proposed in Fig. 8 based on the above.

      We agree that for validation of interaction, we performed pulldown experiments by mixing E. coli lysates expressing His-Wag31 full-length or truncated protein with M. smegmatis lysates expressing FLAG-tagged interacting proteins. The wash conditions used were quite stringent for these pull-down assays—the wash buffer containing 1% Triton X100, which eliminates all non-specific and indirect interactions.  However, we agree that we cannot conclusively state that the interactions are direct without purifying the proteins and performing the experiment. We will describe this caveat in the revised manuscript and propose a model reflecting our results.

      References:

      Freeman, A. H., Tembiwa, K., Brenner, J. R., Chase, M. R., Fortune, S. M., Morita, Y. S., & Boutte, C. C. (2023). Arginine methylation sites on SepIVA help balance elongation and septation in Mycobacterium smegmatis. Mol Microbiol, 119(2), 208-223. https://doi.org/10.1111/mmi.15006

      Garcia Fernandez, M. I., Ceccarelli, D., & Muscatello, U. (2004). Use of the fluorescent dye 10-N-nonyl acridine orange in quantitative and location assays of cardiolipin: a study on different experimental models. Anal Biochem, 328(2), 174-180. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ab.2004.01.020

      García-Heredia, A., Kado, T., Sein, C. E., Puffal, J., Osman, S. H., Judd, J., Gray, T. A., Morita, Y. S., & Siegrist, M. S. (2021). Membrane-partitioned cell wall synthesis in mycobacteria. eLife, 10. https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.60263

      Habibi Arejan, N., Ensinck, D., Diacovich, L., Patel, P. B., Quintanilla, S. Y., Emami Saleh, A., Gramajo, H., & Boutte, C. C. (2022). Polar protein Wag31 both activates and inhibits cell wall metabolism at the poles and septum. Front Microbiol, 13, 1085918. https://doi.org/10.3389/fmicb.2022.1085918

      Hayashi, J. M., Luo, C. Y., Mayfield, J. A., Hsu, T., Fukuda, T., Walfield, A. L., Giffen, S. R., Leszyk, J. D., Baer, C. E., Bennion, O. T., Madduri, A., Shaffer, S. A., Aldridge, B. B., Sassetti, C. M., Sandler, S. J., Kinoshita, T., Moody, D. B., & Morita, Y. S. (2016). Spatially distinct and metabolically active membrane domain in mycobacteria. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A, 113(19), 5400-5405. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1525165113

      Kado, T., Akbary, Z., Motooka, D., Sparks, I. L., Melzer, E. S., Nakamura, S., Rojas, E. R., Morita, Y. S., & Siegrist, M. S. (2023). A cell wall synthase accelerates plasma membrane partitioning in mycobacteria. eLife, 12, e81924. https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.81924

      Meniche, X., Otten, R., Siegrist, M. S., Baer, C. E., Murphy, K. C., Bertozzi, C. R., & Sassetti, C. M. (2014). Subpolar addition of new cell wall is directed by DivIVA in mycobacteria. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A, 111(31), E3243-3251. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1402158111

      Mileykovskaya, E., & Dowhan, W. (2000). Visualization of phospholipid domains in Escherichia coli by using the cardiolipin-specific fluorescent dye 10-N-nonyl acridine orange. J Bacteriol, 182(4), 1172-1175. https://doi.org/10.1128/JB.182.4.1172-1175.2000

      Petit, J. M., Maftah, A., Ratinaud, M. H., & Julien, R. (1992). 10N-nonyl acridine orange interacts with cardiolipin and allows the quantification of this phospholipid in isolated mitochondria. Eur J Biochem, 209(1), 267-273. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1432-1033.1992.tb17285.x

      Renner, L. D., & Weibel, D. B. (2011). Cardiolipin microdomains localize to negatively curved regions of Escherichia coli membranes. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A, 108(15), 6264-6269. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1015757108

      Xu, W. X., Zhang, L., Mai, J. T., Peng, R. C., Yang, E. Z., Peng, C., & Wang, H. H. (2014). The Wag31 protein interacts with AccA3 and coordinates cell wall lipid permeability and lipophilic drug resistance in Mycobacterium smegmatis. Biochem Biophys Res Commun, 448(3), 255-260. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.bbrc.2014.04.116

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I am generally satisfied with the authors' revisions and response to my previous comments. I have amended my previous review.

      We thank Reviewer #1 for his valuable comments and suggestions, which improved this manuscript.

      Thank you for considering the comments in your revised version. I still feel a strong mismatch between the claims of optimal foraging behaviour and the results with little compelling evidence.

      On terminology: MTR means Migration Traffic Rates. The authors responded that in their study, MTR is defined as Movement traffic rates. I have two problems with this definition: i) it creates confusion in the literature on the definition of MTR, ii) a traffic inherently describes a movement, and this pleonasm is not necessary.

      We revised the acronyms in this article, replacing MTR with MoTR to clearly distinguish between Migration Traffic Rate (MTR) and Movement Traffic Rate (MoTR).

      Minimal size of insects: Please detail radar settings (power sent, STC; detection thresholds). These parameters define the minimal size of the detected animals.

      We added the following paragraph to provide additional information regarding the radar's detection capabilities:

      " with decreasing detection probability at increasing altitudes. The detection threshold, defined by the STC setting, was 93 dBm, and the transmit power was 25 kW."

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This study asks whether the phenomenon of crossmodal temporal recalibration, i.e. the adjustment of time perception by consistent temporal mismatches across the senses, can be explained by the concept of multisensory causal inference. In particular, they ask whether the explanation offered by causal inference better explains temporal recalibration better than a model assuming that crossmodal stimuli are always integrated, regardless of how discrepant they are.

      The study is motivated by previous work in the spatial domain, where it has been shown consistently across studies that the use of crossmodal spatial information is explained by the concept of multisensory causal inference. It is also motivated by the observation that the behavioral data showcasing temporal recalibration feature nonlinearities that, by their nature, cannot be explained by a fixed integration model (sometimes also called mandatory fusion).

      To probe this the authors implemented a sophisticated experiment that probed temporal recalibration in several sessions. They then fit the data using the two classes of candidate models and rely on model criteria to provide evidence for their conclusion. The study is sophisticated, conceptually and technically state-of-the-art, and theoretically grounded. The data clearly support the authors’ conclusions.

      I find the conceptual advance somewhat limited. First, by design, the fixed integration model cannot explain data with a nonlinear dependency on multisensory discrepancy, as already explained in many studies on spatial multisensory perception. Hence, it is not surprising that the causal inference model better fits the data.

      We have addressed this comment by including an asynchrony-contingent model, which is capable of predicting the nonlinearity of recalibration effects by employing a heuristic approximation of the causal-inference process (Fig. 3). We also updated the previous competitor model with a more reasonable asynchrony-correction model as the baseline of model comparison, which assumes recalibration aims to restore synchrony whenever the sensory measurement of SOA indicates an asynchrony. The causal-inference model outperformed both models, as indicated by model evidence (Fig. 4A). Furthermore, model predictions show that the causal-inference model more accurately captures recalibration at large SOAs at both the group (Fig. 4B) and the individual levels (Fig. S4).

      Second, and again similar to studies on spatial paradigms, the causal inference model fails to predict the behavioral data for large discrepancies. The model predictions in Figure 5 show the (expected) vanishing recalibration for large delta, while the behavioral data don’t decay to zero. Either the range of tested SOAs is too small to show that both the model and data converge to the same vanishing effect at large SOAs, or the model's formula is not the best for explaining the data. Again, the studies using spatial paradigms have the same problem, but in my view, this poses the most interesting question here.

      We included an additional simulation (Fig. 5B) to show that the causal-inference model can predict non-zero recalibration for long adapter SOAs, especially in observers with a high common-cause prior and low sensory precision. This ability to predict a non-zero recalibration effect even at large SOA, such as 0.7 s, is one key feature of the causal-inference model that distinguishes it from the asynchrony-contingent model.

      In my view there is nothing generally wrong with the study, it does extend the 'known' to another type of paradigm. However, it covers little new ground on the conceptual side.

      On that note, the small sample size of n=10 is likely not an issue, but still, it is on the very low end for this type of study.

      This study used a within-subject design, which included 3 phases each repeated in 9 sessions, totaling 13.5 hours per participant. This extensive data collection allows us to better constrain the model for each participant. Our conclusions are based on the different models’ ability to fit individual data.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Li et al.’s goal is to understand the mechanisms of audiovisual temporal recalibration. This is an interesting challenge that the brain readily solves in order to compensate for real-world latency differences in the time of arrival of audio/visual signals. To do this they perform a 3-phase recalibration experiment on 9 observers that involves a temporal order judgment (TOJ) pretest and posttest (in which observers are required to judge whether an auditory and visual stimulus were coincident, auditory leading or visual leading) and a conditioning phase in which participants are exposed to a sequence of AV stimuli with a particular temporal disparity. Participants are required to monitor both streams of information for infrequent oddballs, before being tested again in the TOJ, although this time there are 3 conditioning trials for every 1 TOJ trial. Like many previous studies, they demonstrate that conditioning stimuli shift the point of subjective simultaneity (pss) in the direction of the exposure sequence.

      These shifts are modest - maxing out at around -50 ms for auditory leading sequences and slightly less than that for visual leading sequences. Similar effects are observed even for the longest offsets where it seems unlikely listeners would perceive the stimuli as synchronous (and therefore under a causal inference model you might intuitively expect no recalibration, and indeed simulations in Figure 5 seem to predict exactly that which isn't what most of their human observers did). Overall I think their data contribute evidence that a causal inference step is likely included within the process of recalibration.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript performs comprehensive testing over 9 days and 100s of trials and accompanies this with mathematical models to explain the data. The paper is reasonably clearly written and the data appear to support the conclusions.

      Weaknesses:

      While I believe the data contribute evidence that a causal inference step is likely included within the process of recalibration, this to my mind is not a mechanism but might be seen more as a logical checkpoint to determine whether whatever underlying neuronal mechanism actually instantiates the recalibration should be triggered.

      We have addressed this comment by replacing the fixed-update model with an asynchrony-correction model, which assumes that the system first evaluates whether the measurement of SOA is asynchronous, thus indicating a need for recalibration (Fig. 3). If it does, it shifts the audiovisual bias by a proportion of the measured SOA. We additionally included an asynchrony-contingent model, which is capable of replicating the nonlinearity of recalibration effects by a heuristic approximation of the causal-inference process.

      Model comparisons indicate that the causal-inference model of temporal recalibration outperforms both alternative models (Fig. 4A). Furthermore, the model predictions demonstrate that the causal-inference model more accurately captures recalibration at large SOAs at both the group level (Fig. 4B) and individual level (Fig. S4).

      The authors’ causal inference model strongly predicts that there should be no recalibration for stimuli at 0.7 ms offset, yet only 3/9 participants appear to show this effect. They note that a significant difference in their design and that of others is the inclusion of longer lags, which are unlikely to originate from the same source, but don’t offer any explanation for this key difference between their data and the predictions of a causal inference model.

      We added further simulations to show that the causal-inference model can predict non-zero recalibration also for longer adapter SOAs, especially in observers with a large common-cause prior (Fig. 5A) and low sensory precision (Fig. 5B). This ability to predict a non-zero recalibration effect even at longer adapter SOAs, such as 0.7 s, is a key feature of the causal-inference model that distinguishes it from the asynchrony-contingent model.

      I’m also not completely convinced that the causal inference model isn’t ‘best’ simply because it has sufficient free parameters to capture the noise in the data. The tested models do not (I think) have equivalent complexity - the causal inference model fits best, but has more parameters with which to fit the data. Moreover, while it fits ‘best’, is it a good model? Figure S6 is useful in this regard but is not completely clear - are the red dots the actual data or the causal inference prediction? This suggests that it does fit the data very well, but is this based on predicting held-out data, or is it just that by having more parameters it can better capture the noise? Similarly, S7 is a potentially useful figure but it's not clear what is data and what are model predictions (what are the differences between each row for each participant; are they two different models or pre-test post-test or data and model prediction?!).

      I'm not an expert on the implementation of such models but my reading of the supplemental methods is that the model is fit using all the data rather than fit and tested on held-out data. This seems problematic.

      We recognize the risk of overfitting with the causal-inference model. We now rely on Bayesian model comparisons, which use model evidence for model selection. This method automatically incorporates a penalty for model complexity through the marginalization over the parameter space (MacKay, 2003).

      Our design is not suitable for cross-validation because the model-fitting process is computationally intensive and time-consuming. Each fit of the causal-inference model takes approximately 30 hours, and multiple fits with different initial starting points are required to rule out that the parameter estimates correspond to local minima.

      I would have liked to have seen more individual participant data (which is currently in the supplemental materials, albeit in a not very clear manner as discussed above).

      We have revised Supplementary Figures S4-S6 to show additional model predictions of the recalibration effect for individual participants, and participants’ temporal-order judgments are now shown in Supplement Figure S7. These figures confirm the better performance of the causal-inference model.

      The way that S3 is described in the text (line 141) makes it sound like everyone was in the same direction, however, it is clear that 2 /9 listeners show the opposite pattern, and 2 have confidence intervals close to zero (albeit on the -ve side).

      We have revised the text to clarify that the asymmetry occurs in both directions and is idiosyncratic (lines 168-171). We summarized the distribution of the individual asymmetries of the recalibration effect across visual-leading and auditory-leading adapter SOAs in Supplementary Figure S2.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Li et al. describe an audiovisual temporal recalibration experiment in which participants perform baseline sessions of ternary order judgments about audiovisual stimulus pairs with various stimulus-onset asynchronies (SOAs). These are followed by adaptation at several adapting SOAs (each on a different day), followed by post-adaptation sessions to assess changes in psychometric functions. The key novelty is the formal specification and application/fit of a causal-inference model for the perception of relative timing, providing simulated predictions for the complete set of psychometric functions both pre and post-adaptation.

      Strengths:

      (1) Formal models are preferable to vague theoretical statements about a process, and prior to this work, certain accounts of temporal recalibration (specifically those that do not rely on a population code) had only qualitative theoretical statements to explain how/why the magnitude of recalibration changes non-linearly with the stimulus-onset asynchrony of the adapter.

      (2) The experiment is appropriate, the methods are well described, and the average model prediction is a fairly good match to the average data (Figure 4). Conclusions may be overstated slightly, but seem to be essentially supported by the data and modelling.

      (3) The work should be impactful. There seems a good chance that this will become the go-to modelling framework for those exploring non-population-code accounts of temporal recalibration (or comparing them with population-code accounts).

      (4) A key issue for the generality of the model, specifically in terms of recalibration asymmetries reported by other authors that are inconsistent with those reported here, is properly acknowledged in the discussion.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The evidence for the model comes in two forms. First, two trends in the data (non-linearity and asymmetry) are illustrated, and the model is shown to be capable of delivering patterns like these. Second, the model is compared, via AIC, to three other models. However, the main comparison models are clearly not going to fit the data very well, so the fact that the new model fits better does not seem all that compelling. I would suggest that the authors consider a comparison with the atheoretical model they use to first illustrate the data (in Figure 2). This model fits all sessions but with complete freedom to move the bias around (whereas the new model constrains the way bias changes via a principled account). The atheoretical model will obviously fit better, but will have many more free parameters, so a comparison via AIC/BIC or similar should be informative

      In the revised manuscript, we switched from AIC to Bayesian model selection, which approximates and compares model evidence. This method incorporates a strong penalty for model complexity through marginalization over the parameter space (MacKay, 2003).

      We have addressed this comment by updating the former competitor model into a more reasonable version that induces recalibration only for some measured SOAs and by including another (asynchrony-contingent) model that is capable of predicting the nonlinearity and asymmetry of recalibration (Fig. 3) while heuristically approximating the causal inference computations. The causal-inference model outperformed the asynchrony-contingent model, as indicated by model evidence (Fig. 4A). Furthermore, model predictions show that the causal-inference model more accurately captures recalibration at large SOAs at both the group (Fig. 4B) and the individual level (Fig. S4).

      (2) It does not appear that some key comparisons have been subjected to appropriate inferential statistical tests. Specifically, lines 196-207 - presumably this is the mean (and SD or SE) change in AIC between models across the group of 9 observers. So are these differences actually significant, for example via t-test?

      We statistically compared the models using Bayes factors (Fig. 4A). The model evidence for each model was approximated using Variational Bayesian Monte Carlo. Bayes factors provided strong evidence in support of the causal-inference model relative to the other models.

      (3) The manuscript tends to gloss over the population-code account of temporal recalibration, which can already provide a quantitative account of how the magnitude of recalibration varies with adapter SOA. This could be better acknowledged, and the features a population code may struggle with (asymmetry?) are considered.

      We simulated a population-code model to examine its prediction of the recalibration effect for different adapter SOAs (lines 380–388, Supplement Section 8). The population-code model can predict the nonlinearity of recalibration, i.e., a decreasing recalibration effect as the adapter SOA increases. However, to capture the asymmetry of recalibration effects across auditory-leading and visual-leading adapter stimuli, we would need to assume that the auditory-leading and visual-leading SOAs are represented by neural populations with unequal tuning curves.

      (4) The engagement with relevant past literature seems a little thin. Firstly, papers that have applied causal inference modeling to judgments of relative timing are overlooked (see references below). There should be greater clarity regarding how the modelling here builds on or differs from these previous papers (most obviously in terms of additionally modelling the recalibration process, but other details may vary too). Secondly, there is no discussion of previous findings like that in Fujisaki et al.’s seminal work on recalibration, where the spatial overlap of the audio and visual events didn’t seem to matter (although admittedly this was an N = 2 control experiment). This kind of finding would seem relevant to a causal inference account.

      References:

      Magnotti JF, Ma WJ and Beauchamp MS (2013) Causal inference of asynchronous audiovisual speech. Front. Psychol. 4:798. doi: 10.3389/fpsyg.2013.00798

      Sato, Y. (2021). Comparing Bayesian models for simultaneity judgement with different causal assumptions. J. Math. Psychol., 102, 102521.

      We have revised the Introduction and Discussion to better situate our study within the existing literature. Specifically, we have incorporated the suggested references (lines 66–69) and provided clearer distinctions on how our modeling approach builds on or differs from previous work on causal-inference models, particularly in terms of modeling the recalibration process (lines 75–79). Additionally, we have discussed findings that might contradict the assumptions of the causal-inference model (lines 405–424).

      (5) As a minor point, the model relies on simulation, which may limit its take-up/application by others in the field.

      Upon acceptance, we will publicly share the code for all models (simulation and parameter fitting) to enable researchers to adapt and apply these models to their own data.

      (6) There is little in the way of reassurance regarding the model’s identifiability and recoverability. The authors might for example consider some parameter recovery simulations or similar.

      We conducted a model recovery for each of the six models described in the main text and confirmed that the asynchrony-contingent and causal-inference models are identifiable (Supplement Section 11). Simulations of the asynchrony-correction model were sometimes best fit by causal-inference models, because the latter behaves similarly when the prior of a common cause is set to one.

      We also conducted a parameter recovery for the winning model, the causal-inference model with modality-specific precision (Supplement Section 13).

      Key parameters, including audiovisual bias  , amount of auditory latency noise  , amount of visual latency noise  , criterion, lapse rate  showed satisfactory recovery performance. The less accurate recovery of  is likely due to a tradeoff with learning rate  .

      (7) I don't recall any statements about open science and the availability of code and data.

      Upon acceptance of the manuscript, all code (simulation and parameter fitting) and data will be made available on OSF and publicly available.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In addition to the comments below, we would like to offer the following summary based on the discussion between reviewers:

      The major shortcoming of the work is that there should ideally be a bit more evidence to support the model, over and above a demonstration that it captures important trends and beats an account that was already known to be wrong. We suggest you:

      (1) Revise the figure legends (Figure 5 and Figure 6E).

      We revised all figures and figure legends.

      (2) Additionally report model differences in terms of BIC (which will favour the preferred model less under the current analysis);

      We now base the model comparison on Bayesian model selection, which approximates and compares model evidence. This method incorporates a strong penalty for model complexity through marginalization over the parameter space (MacKay, 2003).

      (3) Move to instead fitting the models multiple times in order to get leave-one-out estimates of best-fitting loglikelihood for each left-out data point (and then sum those for the comparison metric).

      Unfortunately, our design is not suitable for cross-validation methods because the model-fitting process is computationally intensive and time-consuming. Each fit of the causal-inference model takes approximately 30 hours, and multiple fits with different initial starting points are required to rule out local minima.

      (4) Offering a comparison with a more convincing model (for example an atheoretical fit with free parameters for all adapters, e.g. as suggested by Reviewer 3.

      We updated the previous competitor model and included an asynchrony-contingent model, which is capable of predicting the nonlinearity of recalibration (Fig. 3). The causal-inference model still outperformed the asynchrony-contingent model (Fig. 4A). Furthermore, model predictions show that only the causal-inference model captures non-zero recalibration effects for long adapter SOAs at both the group level (Fig. 4B) and individual level (Figure S4).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      A larger sample size would be better.

      This study used a within-subject design, which included 9 sessions, totaling 13.5 hours per participant. This extensive data collection allows us to better constrain the model for each participant. Our conclusions are based on the different models’ ability to fit individual data rather than on group statistics.

      It would be good to better put the study in the context of spatial ventriloquism, where similar model comparisons have been done over the last ten years and there is a large body of work to connect to.

      We now discuss our model in relation to models of cross-modal spatial recalibration in the Introduction (lines 70–78) and Discussion (lines 324–330).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Previous authors (e.g. Yarrow et al.,) have described latency shift and criterion change models as providing a good fit of experimental data. Did the authors attempt a criterion shift model in addition to a shift model?

      We have considered criterion-shift variants of our atheoretical recalibration models in Supplement Section 1. To summarize the results, we varied two model assumptions: 1) the use of either a Gaussian or an exponential measurement distribution, and 2) recalibration being implemented either as a shift of bias or a criterion. We fit each model variant separately to the ternary TOJ responses of all sessions. Bayesian model comparisons indicated that the bias-shift model with exponential measurement distributions best captured the data of most participants.

      Figure 4B - I'm not convinced that the modality-independent uncertainty is anything but a straw man. Models not allowed to be asymmetric do not show asymmetry? (the asymmetry index is irrelevant in the fixed update model as I understand it so it is not surprising the model is identical?).

      We included the assumption that temporal uncertainty might be modality-independent for several reasons. First, there is evidence suggesting that a central mechanism governs the precision of temporal-order judgments (Hirsh & Sherrick, 1961), indicating that precision is primarily limited by a central mechanism rather than the sensory channels themselves. Second, from a modeling perspective, it was necessary to test whether an audio-visual temporal bias alone, i.e., assuming modality-independent uncertainty, could introduce asymmetry across adapter SOAs. Additionally, most previous studies implicitly assumed symmetric likelihoods, i.e., modality-independent latency noise, by fitting cumulative Gaussians to the psychometric curves derived from 2AFC-TOJ tasks (Di Luca et al., 2009; Fujisaki et al., 2004; Harrar & Harris, 2005; Keetels & Vroomen, 2007; Navarra et al., 2005; Tanaka et al., 2011; Vatakis et al., 2007, 2008; Vroomen et al., 2004).

      Why does a zero SOA adapter shift the pss towards auditory leading? Is this a consequence of the previous day’s conditioning - it’s not clear from the methods whether all listeners had the same SOA conditioning sequence across days.

      The auditory-leading recalibration effect for an adapter SOA of zero has been consistently reported in previous studies (e.g., Fujisaki et al., 2004; Vroomen et al., 2004). This effect symbolizes the asymmetry in recalibration. This asymmetry can be explained by differences across modalities in the noisiness of the latencies (Figure 5C) in combination with audiovisual temporal bias (Figure S8).

      We added details about the order of testing to the Methods section (lines 456–457).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Abstract

      “Our results indicate that human observers employ causal-inference-based percepts to recalibrate cross-modal temporal perception” Your results indicate this is plausible. However, this statement (basically repeated at the end of the intro and again in the discussion) is - in my opinion - too strong.

      We have revised the statement as suggested.

      Intro and later

      Within the wider literature on relative timing perception, the temporal order judgement (TOJ) task refers to a task with just two response options. Tasks with three response options, as employed here, are typically referred to as ternary judgments. I would suggest language consistent with the existing literature (or if not, the contrast to standard usage could be clarified).

      Ref: Ulrich, R. (1987). Threshold models of temporal-order judgments evaluated by a ternary response task. Percept. Psychophys., 42, 224-239.

      We revised the term for the task as suggested throughout the manuscript.

      Results, 2.2.2

      “However, temporal precision might not be due to the variability of arrival latency.” Indeed, although there is some recent evidence that it might be.

      Ref: Yarrow, K., Kohl, C, Segasby, T., Kaur Bansal, R., Rowe, P., & Arnold, D.H. Neural-latency noise places limits on human sensitivity to the timing of events. Cognition, 222, 105012 (2022).

      We included the reference as suggested (lines 245–248).

      Methods, 4.3.

      Should there be some information here about the order of adaptation sessions (e.g. random for each observer)?

      We added details about the order of testing to the Methods section (lines 456–457).

      Supplemental material section 1.

      Here, you test whether the changes resulting from recalibration look more like a shift of the entire psychometric function or an expansion of the psychometric function on one side (most straightforwardly compatible with a change of one decision criterion). Fine, but the way you have done this is odd, because you have introduced a further difference in the models (Gaussian vs. exponential latency noise) so that you cannot actually conclude that the trend towards a win for the bias-shift model is simply down to the bias vs. criterion difference. It could just as easily be down to the different shapes of psychometric functions that the two models can predict (with the exponential noise model permitting asymmetry in slopes). There seems to be no reason that this comparison cannot be made entirely within the exponential noise framework (by a very simple reparameterization that focuses on the two boundaries rather than the midpoint and extent of the decision window). Then, you would be focusing entirely on the question of interest. It would also equate model parameters, removing any reliance on asymptotic assumptions being met for AIC.

      We revised our exploration of atheoretical recalibration models. To summarize the results, we varied two model assumptions: 1) the use of either a Gaussian or an exponential measurement distribution, and 2) recalibration being implemented either as a shift of the cross-modal temporal bias or as a shift of the criterion. We fit each model separately to the ternary TOJ responses of all sessions. Bayesian model comparisons indicated that the bias-shift model with exponential measurement distributions best described the data of most participants.

      References

      Di Luca, M., Machulla, T.-K., & Ernst, M. O. (2009). Recalibration of multisensory simultaneity:

      cross-modal transfer coincides with a change in perceptual latency. Journal of Vision, 9(12), Article 7.

      Fujisaki, W., Shimojo, S., Kashino, M., & Nishida, S. ’ya. (2004). Recalibration of audiovisual simultaneity. Nature Neuroscience, 7(7), 773–778.

      Harrar, V., & Harris, L. R. (2005). Simultaneity constancy: detecting events with touch and vision. Experimental Brain Research. Experimentelle Hirnforschung. Experimentation Cerebrale, 166(3-4), 465–473.

      Hirsh, I. J., & Sherrick, C. E., Jr. (1961). Perceived order in different sense modalities. Journal of Experimental Psychology, 62(5), 423–432.

      Keetels, M., & Vroomen, J. (2007). No effect of auditory-visual spatial disparity on temporal recalibration. Experimental Brain Research. Experimentelle Hirnforschung. Experimentation Cerebrale, 182(4), 559–565.

      MacKay, D. J. (2003). Information theory, inference and learning algorithms.https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=201b835c3f3a3626ca07b e68cc28cf7d286bf8d5

      Navarra, J., Vatakis, A., Zampini, M., Soto-Faraco, S., Humphreys, W., & Spence, C. (2005). Exposure to asynchronous audiovisual speech extends the temporal window for audiovisual integration. Brain Research. Cognitive Brain Research, 25(2), 499–507.

      Tanaka, A., Asakawa, K., & Imai, H. (2011). The change in perceptual synchrony between auditory and visual speech after exposure to asynchronous speech. Neuroreport, 22(14), 684–688.

      Vatakis, A., Navarra, J., Soto-Faraco, S., & Spence, C. (2007). Temporal recalibration during asynchronous audiovisual speech perception. Experimental Brain Research. Experimentelle Hirnforschung. Experimentation Cerebrale, 181(1), 173–181.

      Vatakis, A., Navarra, J., Soto-Faraco, S., & Spence, C. (2008). Audiovisual temporal adaptation of speech: temporal order versus simultaneity judgments. Experimental Brain Research. Experimentelle Hirnforschung. Experimentation Cerebrale, 185(3), 521–529.

      Vroomen, J., Keetels, M., de Gelder, B., & Bertelson, P. (2004). Recalibration of temporal order perception by exposure to audio-visual asynchrony. Brain Research. Cognitive Brain Research, 22(1), 32–35.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer 1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript by Bimbard et al., a new method to perform stable recordings over long periods of time with neuropixels, as well as the technical details on how the electrodes can be explanted for follow-up reuse, is provided. I think the description of all parts of the method is very clear, and the validation analyses (n of units per day over time, RMS over recording days...) are very convincing. I however missed a stronger emphasis on why this could provide a big impact on the ephys community, by enabling new analyses, new behavior correlation studies, or neurophysiological mechanisms across temporal scales.

      Strengths:

      Open source method. Validation across laboratories. Across species (mice and rats) demonstration of its use and in different behavioral conditions (head-fixed and freely moving).

      Weaknesses:

      Weak emphasis on what can be enabled with this new method that didn't exist before.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting the limited discussion around scientific impact. Our implant has several advantages which combine to make it much more accessible than previous solutions. This enables a variety of recording configurations that would not have been possible with previous designs, facilitating recordings from a wider range of brain regions, animals, and experimental setups. In short, there are three key advances which we now emphasise in the manuscript:

      Adaptability: The CAD files can be readily adapted to a wide range of configurations (implantation depth, angle, position of headstage, etc.). Labs have already modified the design for their needs, and re-shared with the community (Discussion, Para 5).

      Weight: Because of the lightweight design, experimenters can i) perform complex and demanding freely moving tasks as we exemplify in the manuscript, and ii) implant female and water restricted mice while respecting animal welfare weight limitations (Flexible design, Para 1).

      Cost: At ~$10, our implant is significantly cheaper than published alternatives, which makes it affordable to more labs and means that testing modifications is cost-effective (Discussion, Para 4).

      Reviewer 1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      - Differences between mice and rats seem very significant. Although this is probably not surprising, I suggest that the authors comment on this to make it clear to anyone trying to use in different species that are not quantified in the main figures.

      The reviewer is correct—there are qualitative differences between mice and rats, particularly with respect to the unit median amplitude. We have added a comment in the discussion to highlight these inter-species variations (Discussion, Para 7)

      - Another comment that would be useful to have would be how to tackle the problem of tracking the same neuron across days. Even if currently impossible, it could be useful to provide discussion along those lines as to where future improvements (either in hardware or software) can be made.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this. Figure. 5 does show data from tracking the same neuron across days (and even months). We have modified the language to make this clear.

      Reviewer 2 (Public Review):  

      Summary:

      This work by Bimbard et al., introduces a new implant for Neuropixels probes. While Neuropixels probes have critically improved and extended our ability to record the activity of a large number of neurons with high temporal resolution, the use of these expensive devices in chronic experiments has so far been hampered by the difficulty of safely implanting them and, importantly, to explant and reuse them after conclusion of the experiment. The authors present a newly designed two-part implant, consisting of a docking and a payload module, that allows for secure implantation and straightforward recovery of the probes. The implant is lightweight, making it amenable for use in mice and rats, and customizable. The authors provide schematics and files for printing of the implants, which can be easily modified and adapted to custom experiments by researchers with little to no design experience. Importantly, the authors demonstrate the successful use of this implant across multiple use cases, in head-fixed and freely moving experiments, in mice and rats, with different versions of Neuropixels probes, and across 8 different labs. Taken together, the presented implants promise to make chronic Neuropixel recordings and long-term studies of neuronal activity significantly easier and attainable for both current and future Neuropixels users.

      Strengths:

      The implants have been successfully tested across 8 different laboratories, in mice and rats, in headfixed and freely moving conditions, and have been adapted in multiple ways for a number of distinct experiments.

      Implants are easily customizable and the authors provide a straightforward approach for customization across multiple design dimensions even for researchers not experienced in design.

      The authors provide clear and straightforward descriptions of the construction, implantation, and explant of the described implants.

      The split of the implant into a docking and payload module makes reuse even in different experiments (using different docking modules) easy.

      The authors demonstrate that implants can be re-used multiple times and still allow for high-quality recordings.

      The authors show that the chronic implantations allow for the tracking of individual neurons across days and weeks (using additional software tracking solutions), which is critical for a large number of experiments requiring the description of neuronal activity, e.g. throughout learning processes.

      The authors show that implanted animals can even perform complex behavioral tasks, with no apparent reduction in their performance.

      Weaknesses:

      While implanted animals can still perform complex behavioral tasks, the authors describe that the implants may reduce the animals' mobility, as measured by prolonged reaction times. However, the presented data does not allow us to judge whether this effect is specifically due to the presented implant or whether any implant or just tethering of the animals per se would have the same effects.

      The reviewer is correct: some of the differences in mouse reaction time could be due to the tether rather than the implant. As these experiments were also performed in water-restricted female mice with the heavier Neuropixels 1.0 implant, our data represent the maximal impact of the implant, and we have highlighted this point in the revision (Freely behaving animals, Para 2).  

      While the authors make certain comparisons to other, previously published approaches for chronic implantation and re-use of Neuropixels probes, it is hard to make conclusive comparisons and judge the advantages of the current implant. For example, while the authors emphasize that the lower weight of their implant allows them to perform recordings in mice (and is surely advantageous), the previously described, heavier implants they mention (Steinmetz et al., 2021; van Daal et al., 2021), have also been used in mice. Whether the weight difference makes a difference in practice therefore remains somewhat unclear.

      The reviewer is correct: without a direct comparison, we cannot be certain that our smaller, lighter implant improves behavioural results (although this is supported by the literature, e.g. Newman et al, 2023). However, the reduced weight of our implant is critical for several laboratories represented in this manuscript due to animal welfare requirements. Indeed, in van Daal et al the authors “recommend a [mouse] weight of >25 g for implanting Neuropixels 1.0 probes.” This limit precludes using (the vast majority of) female mice, or water-restricted animals. Conversely, our implant can be routinely used with lighter, water-restricted male and female mice. We emphasised this point in the revision (Discussion, Para 2).

      The non-permanent integration of the headstages into the implant, while allowing for the use of the same headstage for multiple animals in parallel, requires repeated connections and does not provide strong protection for the implant. This may especially be an issue for the use in rats, requiring additional protective components as in the presented rat experiments.

      We apologise for not clarifying the various headstage holder options in the manuscript and we have now addressed this in the revision (Freely behaving animals, Para 1&2). Our repository has headstage holder designs (in the XtraModifications/Mouse_FreelyMoving folder). This allows leaving the headstage on the implant, and thus minimize the number of connections (albeit increasing the weight for the mouse). Indeed, mice recorded while performing the task described in our manuscript had the head-stage semi-permanently integrated to the implant, and we now highlight this in the revision (Freely behaving animals, Para 1).

      Reviewer 2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      The description of the different versions of the head-stage holders should be more clear, listing also advantages/disadvantages of the different solutions. It would be also useful if the authors could comment on the use of these head-stage holders in rats, since they do not seem to offer much protection.

      We thank the reviewer for this point, and we have added notes to the manuscript to clarify the various advantages of the different headstage-holders, and that the headstage can be permanently attached to the implant (Freely behaving animals, Para 1&2). This is the primary advantage of these solutions compared with the minimal implant—at the expense of increasing the implant weight.  

      The reviewer’s concerns regarding the lack of protection for implants in rats is well-placed, and we now emphasise that these experiments benefited from the additional protection of an external 3D casing, which is likely critical for use in larger animals (Freely behaving animals, Para 1).

      While re-used probes seem to show similar yields across multiple uses (Figure 4C), it seems as if there is a much higher variability of the yield for probes that are used for the first (maybe also second) time. There are probes with much higher than average yields, but it seems none of the re-used probes show such high yields. Is this a real effect? Is this because the high-yield probes happened to have not been used multiple times? Is there an analysis the authors could provide to reduce the concern that yields may generally be lower for re-used probes/that there are no very high yields for re-used probes?

      We understand the reviewer’s concern with respect to Figure 4C, however, the re-use of any given probe was determined only by the experimental needs of the project. It is therefore not possible that there is a relationship between probes selected for re-use and unit-yield. We now specify this in the revised legend of Figure 4C. This variability (and the consistency in yield across uses) likely stems from differences between labs, brain region, and implantation protocol.

      The authors claim that a 'large fraction' of units could be tracked for the entire duration of the experiment (Figure 5A,B). They mention in the discussion that quantification can be found in a different manuscript (van Beest et al., 2023), but this should also be quantified here in at least some more detail, also for other animals in addition to the one mouse which was recorded for ~100 days. What fraction can be held for different durations? What is the average holding time, etc.?

      We agree with the reviewer, and have now added new panels quantifying the probability and reliability of tracking a neuron across days (Figure 5E-F). We also comment on the change in tracking probability across time, and its variability across recordings (Stability, Para 4).

      Reviewer 3 (Public Reviews):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Bimbard and colleagues describe a new implant apparatus called "Apollo Implant", which should facilitate recording in freely moving rodents (mice and rats) using Neuropixels probes. The authors collected data from both mice and rats, they used 3 different versions of Neuropixels, multiple labs have already adopted this method, which is impressive. They openly share their CAD designs and surgery protocol to further facilitate the adaptation of their method.

      Strengths:

      Overall, the "Apollo Implant" is easy to use and adapt, as it has been used in other laboratories successfully and custom modifications are already available. The device is reproducible using common 3D printing services and can be easily modified thanks to its CAD design (the video explaining this is extremely helpful). The weight and price are amazing compared to other systems for rigid silicon probes allowing a wide range of use of the "Apollo Implant".

      Weaknesses:

      The "Apollo Implant" can only handle Neuropixels probes. It cannot hold other widely used and commercially available silicon probes. Certain angles and distances are not possible in their current form (distance between probes 1.8 to 4mm, implantation depth 2-6.5 mm, or angle of insertion up to 20 degrees).

      As we now discuss in the manuscript (Discussion, Para 4), one implant accommodating the diversity of the existing probes is beyond the scope of this project. However, because the design is adaptable, groups should be able to modify the current version of the implant to adapt to their electrodes’ size and format (and can highlight any issues in the Github “Discussions” area).

      With Neuropixels, the current range of depths covers practically all trajectories in the mouse brain. In rats, where deeper penetrations may be useful, the experimenter can attach the probe at a lower point in the payload module to expose more of the shank. We now specify this in the Github repository.  

      We have now extended the range of inter-probe distances from a maximum of 4 mm to 6.5 mm. Distances beyond this may be better served by 2 implants, and smaller distances could be achieved by attaching two probes on the same side of the docking module. These points are now specified in the revised manuscript (Flexible design, Para 2).

      Reviewer 3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I have only a few questions and suggestions:

      Is it possible to create step-by-step instructions for explantation (similar to Figure-1 with CAD schematics)? You mention that payload holder is attached to a micromanipulator, but it is unclear how this is achieved. How was the payload secured with a screw (which screw)? My understanding is that as you turn the screw in the payload holder, it will grab onto the payload module from both sides, but the screw is not in contact with the payload module, correct? I found the screw type on your GitHub, but it would be great if you could add a bill of materials in a table format, so readers don't have to jump between GitHub and article.

      We have now added a bill of materials to the revised manuscript (Implant design and materials, Para 2), although up-to-date links are still provided on the Github repository due to changing availability.

      What happens if you do a dual probe implant and cannot avoid blood vessels in one or both of the craniotomies due to the pre-defined geometry? Is this a frequent issue? How can you overcome this during the surgery?

      Blood vessels can be difficult to avoid in some cases, but we are typically able to rotate/reposition the probes to solve this issue. In some cases, with 4-shank probes, the blood vessel can be positioned between individual probe shanks. We now detail this in the revised manuscript (Assembly and implantation, Para 3).

      I assume if the head is not aligned (line-332) the probe can break during recovery. Have you experienced this during explanation?

      As we now specify in the manuscript (Explantation, Para 2), we are careful when explanting the probe to avoid this issue, and due to the flexibility of the shanks, it does not appear to be a major concern.

      Why did you remove the UV glue (line 435)? How can you level the skull? I assume you have covered bregma and lambda in the first surgery which can create an uneven surface to measure even after you remove the UV glue.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this omission from the methods. We now explain (Implantation, Carandini-Harris laboratory) that the UV-glue is completely removed during the second surgery, and the skull is cleaned and scored. This improves the adhesion of the dental cement, and allows for reliable levelling of the skull.

      In line 112 you mentioned that the number of recorded neurons was stable; however, you found a 3% mean decrease in unit count per day (line 120). Stability is great until day 10 (in Figure 4A), but it deteriorates quickly after that. I think it would help readers if you could add the mean{plus minus}SEM of recorded units in the text for days 1-10, days 11-50, and days 51-100 (using the data from Figure 4A).

      We have now added Supplementary Figure 4 to show unit count across bins of days, and a corresponding comment in the text (Stability, Para 2).

      A full survey of the probe (Figure 4B) means that you recorded neuronal activity across 4-5000 channels (depending on how many channels were in the brain). While it is clear that a full probe survey can reduce the number of animals needed for a study, it is also clear in this figure that by day 25 you can record ~300 neurons on 4000 channels. It would be great to discuss this in the discussion and give a balanced view of the long-term stability of these recordings.

      Overall, keeping a large number of units for a long time still remains a challenge. Here, we could record on average 85 neurons per bank during the first 10 days, and then only 45 after 50 days. It is important to note that our quantification averages across all banks recorded, including those in a ventricle or partly outside of the brain. Thus, our results represent a lower estimate of the total neurons recorded. Our new Supplementary Figure 4 helps to highlight the diversity of neuron number recorded per animal. Further improvements in surgical techniques and spike sorting will likely improve stability further and we have now added this comment in the manuscript (Stability, Para 2). For example, we observed excellent stability in a mouse where the craniotomy was stabilized with KwikSil (Supplementary Figure 5).

      The RMS value was around 20 uV in some of the recordings, and according to Figure 4G it is around 16 uV on average. Is it safe to accept putative single units with 20 uV amplitudes, when the baseline noise level is this close to the spike peak-to-peak amplitude?

      On average, less than 1% of the units selected using all the other metrics except the amplitude had an amplitude below 30 µV, and 2.6% below 50 µV. Increasing the threshold to 30 µV, or even 50 µV, did not affect the results. We have now added this comment in the Methods (Data processing, Para 3).

      Can you add the waveform and ISIH of the example unit from day 106 to Figure 5?

      We have now added 4 units tracked up to day 106 in Figure 5.  

      Could you move Supplementary Figure 3A to Figure 4? The number of units is more valuable information than the RMS noise level. I understand that you don't have such a nice coverage of all the days as in Figure 3 and 4, but you might be able to group for the first 3 days and the last 3 days (and if data is available, the middle 3 days) as a boxplot. The goal would be for the reader to be able to see whether there is any change in the number of single units over time.

      We agree with the reviewer, the number of units is more valuable. We had included this information in Figure 4A-F, but we have made edits to the text to make it clearer that this is what is being shown. The data from Figure 3A is already contained within Figure 4, but in 3A the data is separated by individual labs.

      Product numbers are missing in multiple places: line-285 (screw), line-288 (screw), line-290 (screw), line-309 (manipulator), line-374 (gold pin and silver wire), line-384 (Mill-Max), line-394 (silver wire), and many more. It would be great if you could add all these details, so people can replicate your protocol.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this, and we have added details of screw thread-size and length to relevant parts of the manuscript, although any type of screw can be used. Similarly, other components are non-specific (e.g. multiple silver-wire diameters were used across labs), so we have not included specific product numbers for general consumer items (like screws and silver wires) to avoid indicating that a specific part must be purchased.

      While it is great to see lab-specific methods, I am not sure in their current form it helps to understand the protocol better. The information is conveyed in different ways (I assume these were written by different people), in different orders, and in different depths (some mention probe implant location relative to bregma and midline, some don't). There are many different glues, epoxies, cement, wires, and pins. I would recommend rewriting these methods sections under a unified template, so it is easier to follow.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and we have rewritten this section of the methods accordingly. We now use a template structure to simplify the comparisons between labs: the same template is used for each lab in each section (payload module assembly, implantation, and data acquisition).

      Line-307: why is a skull screw optional for grounding? What did you use for ground and reference if not a ground screw?

      We now specify in the manuscript that during head-fixed experiments, the animal’s headplate can be used for grounding, and combined with internal referencing provided by the Neuropixels, yielded lownoise recordings (Implantation protocol, Methods).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The manuscript by Oleh et al. uses in vitro electrophysiology and compartmental modeling (via NEURON) to investigate the expression and function of HCN channels in mouse L2/3 pyramidal neurons. The authors conclude that L2/3 neurons have developmentally regulated HCN channels, the activation of which can be observed when subjected to large hyperpolarizations. They further conclude via blockade experiments that HCN channels in L2/3 neurons influence cellular excitability and pathway-specific EPSP kinetics, which can be neuromodulated. While the authors perform a wide range of slice physiology experiments, concrete evidence that L2/3 cells express functionally relevant HCN channels is limited. There are serious experimental design caveats and confounds that make drawing strong conclusions from the data difficult. Furthermore, the significance of the findings is generally unclear, given modest effect sizes and a lack of any functional relevance, either directly via in vivo experiments or indirectly via strong HCN-mediated changes in known operations/computations/functions of L2/3 neurons.

      Specific points:

      (1) The interpretability and impact of this manuscript are limited due to numerous methodological issues in experimental design, data collection, and analysis. The authors have not followed best practices in the field, and as such, much of the data is ambiguous and/or weak and does not support their interpretations (detailed below). Additionally, the authors fail to appropriately explain their rationale for many of their choices, making it difficult to understand why they did what they did. Furthermore, many important references appear to be missing, both in terms of contextualizing the work and in terms of approach/method. For example, the authors do not cite Kalmbach et al 2018, which performed a directly comparable set of experiments on HCN channels in L2/3 neurons of both humans and mice. This is an unacceptable omission. Additionally, the authors fail to cite prior literature regarding the specificity or lack thereof of Cs+ in blocking HCN. In describing a result, the authors state "In line with previous reports, we found that L2/3 PCs exhibited an unremarkable amount of sag at 'typical' current commands" but they then fail to cite the previous reports.

      We thank the reviewer for the thorough examination of our manuscript; however, we disagree with many of the raised concerns for several reasons, as detailed here:

      To address the lack of certain citations, we would like to emphasize that in the introduction section, we did initially focus on the several decades-long line of investigation into the HCN channel content of layer 2/3 pyramidal cells (L2/3 PCs), where there has undoubtedly been some controversy as to their functional contribution. We did not explicitly cite papers that claimed to find no/little HCN channels/sag- although this would be a significant list of publications from some excellent investigators, as methods used may have differed from ours leading to different interpretations. Simply stated, unless one was explicitly looking for HCN in L2/3 PCs, it might go unobserved. However, we now addressed this more clearly in the revision:

      Just to take one example: in the publication mentioned by the reviewer (Kalmbach et al 2018), the investigators did not carry out voltage clamp or dynamic clamp recordings, as we did in our work here. Furthermore, the reported input resistance values in the aforementioned paper were far above other reports in mice (Routh et al. 2022, Brandalise et al 2022, Hedrick et al 2012; which were similar to our findings here), suggesting that recordings in Kalmbach were carried out at membrane potentials where HCN activation may be less available (Routh, Brager and Johnston 2022).

      Another reason for some mixed findings in the field is undoubtedly due to the small/nonexistent sag in L2/3 current clamp recordings (in mice). We also observed a very small sag, which can be explained by the following:  The ‘sag’ potential is a biphasic voltage response emerging from a relatively fast passive membrane response and a slower Ih activation. In L2/3 PCs, hyperpolarization-activated currents are apparently faster than previously described, and are located proximally (Figure 2 & Figure 5). Therefore, their recruitment in mouse L2/3 PCs is on a similar timescale to the passive membrane response, resulting in a more monophasic response. We now include a more full set of citations in the updated introduction section, to highlight the importance of HCN channels in L2/3 PCs in mice (and other species).

      The justification for using cesium (i.e., ‘best practices’) is detailed below.

      (2) A critical experimental concern in the manuscript is the reliance on cesium, a nonspecific blocker, to evaluate HCN channel function. Cesium blocks HCN channels but also acts at potassium channels (and possibly other channels as well). The authors do not acknowledge this or attempt to justify their use of Cs+ and do not cite prior work on this subject. They do not show control experiments demonstrating that the application of Cs+ in their preparation only affects Ih. Additionally, the authors write 1 mM cesium in the text but appear to use 2 mM in the figures. In later experiments, the authors switch to ZD7288, a more commonly used and generally accepted more specific blocker of HCN channels. However, they use a very high concentration, which is also known to produce off-target effects (see Chevaleyre and Castillo, 2002). To make robust conclusions, the authors should have used both blockers (at accepted/conservative concentrations) for all (or at least most) experiments. Using one blocker for some experiments and then another for different experiments is fraught with potential confounds.

      To address the concerns regarding the usage of cesium to block HCN channels, we would like to state that neither cesium nor ZD-7288 are without off-target effects, however in our case the potential off-target effects of external cesium were deemed less impactful, especially concerning AP firing output experiments. Extracellular cesium has been widely accepted as a blocker of HCN channels (Lau et al. 2010, Wickenden et al. 2009, Rateau and Ropert 2005, Hemond et al. 2009, Yang et al. 2015, Matt et al. 2010). However, it is well known to act on potassium channels as well at higher concentrations, which has been demonstrated with intracellular and extracellular application (Puil et al. 1981, Fleidervish et al. 2008, Williams et al. 1991, 2008).

      Although we initially performed ‘internal’ control experiments to ensure the cesium concentration was unlikely to greatly block voltage gated K+ channels during our recordings, we recognize these were not included in the original manuscript. These are detailed as follows: during our recordings cesium had no significant effect on action potential halfwidth, ruling out substantial blocking of potassium channels, nor did it affect any other aspects of suprathreshold activity (now reported in results, page 4 - line 113). Furthermore, we observed similar effects on passive properties (resting membrane potential, input resistance) following ZD-7288 as with cesium, which we now also updated in our figures (Supplementary Figure 1). We did acknowledge that ZD-7288 is a widely accepted blocker of HCN, and for this reason we carried out some of our experiments using this pharmacological agent instead of cesium.

      On the other hand, ZD-7288 suffers from its own side effects, such as potential effects on sodium channels (Wu et al. 2012) and calcium channels (Sánchez-Alonso et al. 2008, Felix et al. 2003). As our aim was to provide functional evidence for the importance of HCN channels, we initially deemed these potential effects unacceptable in experiments where AP firing output (e.g., in cell-attached experiments) was measured. Nonetheless, in new experiments now included here, we found the effects of ZD and cesium on AP output were similar as shown in new Supplemental Figure 1.

      Many experiments were supported by complementary findings using external cesium and ZD-7288. For example, the effect of ZD-7288 on EPSPs was confirmed by similar synaptic stimulation experiments using cesium. This is important, as synaptic inputs of L2/3 PCs are modulated by both dendritic sodium (Ferrarese et al. 2018) and calcium channels (Landau 2022), therefore the application of ZD-7288 alone may have been difficult to interpret in isolation. We thank the reviewer for bringing up this important point.

      (3) A stronger case could be made that HCN is expressed in the somatic compartment of L2/3 cells if the authors had directly measured HCN-isolated currents with outside-out or nucleated patch recording (with appropriate leak subtraction and pharmacology). Whole-cell voltage-clamp in neurons with axons and/or dendrites does not work. It has been shown to produce erroneous results over and over again in the field due to well-known space clamp problems (see Rall, Spruston, Williams, etc.). The authors could have also included negative controls, such as recordings in neurons that do not express HCN or in HCN-knockout animals. Without these experiments, the authors draw a false equivalency between the effects of cesium and HCN channels, when the outcomes they describe could be driven simply by multiple other cesium-sensitive currents. Distortions are common in these preparations when attempting to study channels (see Williams and Womzy, J Neuro, 2011). In Fig 2h, cesium-sensitive currents look too large and fast to be from HCN currents alone given what the authors have shown in their earlier current clamp data. Furthermore, serious errors in leak subtraction appear to be visible in Supplementary Figure 1c. To claim that these conductances are solely from HCN may be misleading.

      We disagree with the argument that “Whole-cell voltage-clamp in neurons with axons and/or dendrites does not work”. Although this method is not without its confounds (i.e. space clamp), it is still a useful initial measure as demonstrated countless times in the literature. However, the reviewer is correct that the best approach to establish the somatodendritic distribution of ion channels is by direct somatic and dendritic outside-out patches. Due to the small diameter of L2/3 PC dendrites, these experiments haven’t been carried out yet in the literature for any other ion channel either to our knowledge. Mapping this distribution electrophysiologically may be outside the scope of the current manuscript, but it was hard for us to ignore the sheer size of the Cs<sup>+</sup> sensitive hyperpolarizing currents in whole cell. Thus, we will opt to report this data.

      Also, we should point out that space clamp-related errors manifest in the overestimation of frequency-dependent features, such as activation kinetics, and underestimation of steady-state current amplitudes. The activation time constant of our measured currents are somewhat faster than previously reported; reducing major concerns regarding space clamp errors. Furthermore, we simply do not understand what “too large… to be from HCN currents” means. Our voltage-clamp measured currents are similar to previously reported HCN currents (Meng et al. 2011, Li 2011, Zhao et al. 2019, Yu et al. 2004, Zhang et al. 2008, Spinelli et al. 2018, Craven et al. 2006, Ying et al. 2012, Biel et al. 2009).

      Furthermore, we should point out that our measured currents activated at hyperpolarized voltages, had the same voltage dependence as HCN currents, did not show inactivation, influenced both input resistance and resting membrane potential, and are blocked by low concentration extracellular cesium. Each of these features would point to HCN.

      (4) The authors present current-clamp traces with some sag, a primary indicator of HCN conductance, in Figure 2. However, they do not show example traces with cesium or ZD7288 blockade. Additionally, the normalization of current injected by cellular capacitance and the lack of reporting of input resistance or estimated cellular size makes it difficult to determine how much current is actually needed to observe the sag, which is important for assessing the functional relevance of these channels. The sag ratio in controls also varies significantly without explanation (Figure 6 vs Figure 7). Could this variability be a result of genetically defined subgroups within L2/3? For example, in humans, HCN expression in L2/3 varies from superficial and deep neurons. The authors do not make an effort to investigate this. Regardless of inconsistencies in either current injection or cell type, the sag ratio appears to be rather modest and similar to what has already been reported previously in other papers.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out that our explanation for the modest sag ratio might have not been sufficient to properly understand why this measurement cannot be applied to layer 2/3 pyramidal cells. Briefly: sag potential emerges from a relatively (compared to I<sub>h</sub>) fast passive membrane response and a slower HCN recruitment. The opposing polarity and different timescales of these two mechanisms results in a biphasic response called “sag” potential. However, if the timescale of these two mechanisms is similar, the voltage response is not predicted to be biphasic. We have shown that hyperpolarization activated currents in our preparations are fast and proximal, therefore they are recruited during the passive response (see Figure 2g.). This means that although a substantial amount of HCN currents are activated during hyperpolarization, their activation will not result in substantial sag. Therefore, sag ratio measurement is not necessarily applicable to approximate the HCN content of mouse L2/3 PCs. We would like to emphasize that sag ratio measurements are correct in case of other cell types (i.e. L5 and CA1 PCs_,_ and our aim is not to discredit the method, but rather to show that it cannot be applied similarly in the case of mouse L2/3 PCs.

      Our own measurements, similar to others in the literature show that L2/3 PCs exhibit modest sag ratios, however, this does not mean that HCN is not relevant. I<sub>h</sub> activation in L2/3 PCs does not manifest in large sag potential but rather in a continuous distortion of steady-state responses (Figure 2b.). The reviewer is correct that L2/3 PCs are non-homogenous, therefore we sampled along the entire L2/3 axis. This yielded some potential variability in our results (i.e., passive properties); yet we did not observe any cells where hyperpolarizing-activated/Cs<sup>+</sup>-sensitive currents could not be resolved. As structural variability of L2/3 cells does result in variability in cellular capacitance, we compensated for this variability by injecting cellular capacitance-normalized currents. Our measured cellular capacitances were in accordance with previously published values, in the range of 50-120 pF. Therefore, the injected currents were not outside frequently used values. Together, we would like to state that whether substantial sag potential is present or not, initial estimates of the HCN content for each L2/3 PC should be treated with caution.

      (5) In the later experiments with ZD7288, the authors measured EPSP half-width at greater distances from the soma. However, they use minimal stimulation to evoke EPSPs at increasingly far distances from the soma. Without controlling for amplitude, the authors cannot easily distinguish between attenuation and spread from dendritic filtering and additional activation and spread from HCN blockade. At a minimum, the authors should share the variability of EPSP amplitude versus the change in EPSP half-width and/or stimulation amplitudes by distance. In general, this kind of experiment yields much clearer results if a more precise local activation of synapses is used, such as dendritic current injection, glutamate uncaging, sucrose puff, or glutamate iontophoresis. There are recording quality concerns here as well: the cell pictured in Figure 3a does not have visible dendritic spines, and a substantial amount of membrane is visible in the recording pipette. These concerns also apply to the similar developmental experiment in 6f-h, where EPSP amplitude is not controlled, and therefore, attenuation and spread by distance cannot be effectively measured. The outcome, that L2/3 cells have dendritic properties that violate cable theory, seems implausible and is more likely a result of variable amplitude by proximity.

      To resolve this issue, we made a supplementary figure showing elicited amplitudes, which showed no significant distance dependence and minimal variability (new Supplementary Figure 6). We thank the reviewer for suggesting an amplitude-halfwidth comparison control (now included as new Supplementary Figure 6).). To address the issue of the non-visible spines, we would like to note that these images are of lower magnification and power to resolve them. The presence of dendritic spines was confirmed in every recorded pyramidal cell observed using 2P microscopy at higher magnification.

      We would like to emphasize that although our recordings “seemingly” violated the cable theory, this is only true if we assume a completely passive condition. As shown in our manuscript, cable theory was not violated, as the presence of NMDA receptor boosting explained the observed ‘non-Rallian’ phenomenon.

      (6) Minimal stimulation used for experiments in Figures 3d-i and Figures 4g-h does not resolve the half-width measurement's sensitivity to dendritic filtering, nor does cesium blockade preclude only HCN channel involvement. Example traces should be shown for all conditions in 3h; the example traces shown here do not appear to even be from the same cell. These experiments should be paired (with and without cesium/ZD). The same problem appears in Figure 4, where it is not clear that the authors performed controls and drug conditions on the same cells. 4g also lacks a scale bar, so readers cannot determine how much these measurements are affected by filtering and evoked amplitude variability. Finally, if we are to believe that minimal stimulation is used to evoke responses of single axons with 50% fail rates, NMDA receptor activation should be minimal to begin with. If the authors wish to make this claim, they need to do more precise activation of NMDA-mediated EPSPs and examine the effects of ZD7288 on these responses in the same cell. As the data is presented, it is not possible to draw the conclusion that HCN boosts NMDA-mediated responses in L2/3 neurons.

      As stated in the figure legends, the control and drug application traces are from the same cell, both in figure 3 and figure 4, and the scalebar is not included as the amplitudes were normalized for clarity. We have address the effects of dendritic filtering above in answer (5), and cesium blockade above in answer (2). To reiterate, dendritic filtering alone cannot explain our observations, and cesium is often a better choice for blocking HCN channels compared to ZD-7288, which blocks sodium channels as well.

      When an excitatory synaptic signal arrives onto a pyramidal cell in typical conditions, neurotransmitter sensitive receptors transmit a synaptic current to the dendritic spine. This dendritic spine is electrically isolated by the high resistance of the spine neck and due to the small membrane surface of the spine, the synaptic current can elicit remarkably large voltage changes. These voltage changes can be large enough to depolarize the spine close to zero millivolts upon even single small inputs (Jayant et al. 2016). Therefore, to state that single inputs arriving to dendritic spines cannot be large enough to recruit NMDA receptor activation is incorrect. This is further exemplified by the substantial literature showing ‘miniature’ NMDA recruitment via stochastic vesicle release alone.

      (7) The quality of recordings included in the dataset has concerning variability: for example, resting membrane potentials vary by >15-20 mV and the AP threshold varies by 20 mV in controls. This is indicative of either a very wide range of genetically distinct cell types that the authors are ignoring or the inclusion of cells that are either unhealthy or have bad seals.

      Although we are aware of the diversity of L2/3 PCs, resolving further layer depth differences is outside the scope of our current manuscript. However, as shown in Kalmbech et al, resting membrane potential can greatly vary (>15-20 mV) in L2/3 PCs depending on distance from pia. We acknowledge that the variance in AP threshold is large and could be due to genetically distinct cell types.

      (8) The authors make no mention of blocking GABAergic signaling, so it must be assumed that it is intact for all experiments. Electrical stimulation can therefore evoke a mixture of excitatory and inhibitory responses, which may well synapse at very different locations, adding to interpretability and variability concerns.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out our lack of detail regarding the GABAergic signaling blocker SR 95531. We did include this drug in our recordings of (50Hz stim.) signal summation, so GABAergic responses did not contaminate our recordings. We now included this information in the results section (page 5) and the methods section (page 15)

      (9) The investigation of serotonergic interaction with HCN channels produces modest effect sizes and suffers the same problems as described above.

      We do not agree with the reviewer that 50% drop in neuronal AP firing responses (Figure 7b) was a modest effect size. Thus, we opted to keep this data in the manuscript.

      (10) The computational modeling is not well described and is not biologically plausible. Persistent and transient K channels are missing. Values for other parameters are not listed. The model does not seem to follow cable theory, which, as described above, is not only implausible but is also not supported by the experimental findings.

      The model was downloaded from the Cell Type Database from the Allen Institute, with only minor modifications including the addition of dendritic HCN channels and NDMA receptors- which were varied along a wide parameter space to find a ‘best fit’ to our observations. These additions were necessary to recapitulate our experimental findings. We agree the model likely does not fully recapitulate all aspects of the dendrites, which as we hope to convey in this manuscript, are not fully resolved in mouse L2/3 PCs. This is a previously published neuronal model, and despite its potential shortcomings, is one among a handful of open-source neuronal models of a fully reconstructed L2/3 PC.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper by Olah et al. uncovers a previously unknown role of HCN channels in shaping synaptic inputs to L2/3 cortical neurons. The authors demonstrate using slice electrophysiology and computational modeling that, unlike layer 5 pyramidal neurons, L2/3 neurons have an enrichment of HCN channels in the proximal dendrites. This location provides a locus of neuromodulation for inputs onto the proximal dendrites from L4 without an influence on distal inputs from L1. The authors use pharmacology to demonstrate the effect of HCN channels on NMDA-mediated synaptic inputs from L4. The authors further demonstrate the developmental time course of HCN function in L2/3 pyramidal neurons. Taken together, this a well-constructed investigation of HCN channel function and the consequences of these channels on synaptic integration in L2/3 pyramidal neurons.

      Strengths:

      The authors use careful, well-constrained experiments using multiple pharmacological agents to asses HCN channel contributions to synaptic integrations. The authors also use a voltage clamp to directly measure the current through HCN channels across developmental ages. The authors also provide supplemental data showing that their observation is consistent across multiple areas of the cerebral cortex.

      Weaknesses:

      The gradient of the HCN channel function is based almost exclusively on changes in EPSP width measured at the soma. While providing strong evidence for the presence of HCN current in L2/3 neurons, there are space clamp issues related to the use of somatic whole-cell voltage clamps that should be considered in the discussion.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out our careful and well-constrained experiments and for making suggestions. The potential effects of space clamp errors are detailed in the extended explanations under Reviewer 1, Specific points (3).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors study the function of HCN channels in L2/3 pyramidal neurons, employing somatic whole-cell recordings in acute slices of visual cortex in adult mice and a bevy of technically challenging techniques. Their primary claim is a non-uniform HCN distribution across the dendritic arbor with a greater density closer to the soma (roughly opposite of the gradient found in L5 PT-type neurons). The second major claim is that multiple sources of long-range excitatory input (cortical and thalamic) are differentially affected by the HCN distribution. They further describe an interesting interplay of NMDAR and HCN, serotonergic modulation of HCN, and compare HCN-related properties at 1, 2 and 6 weeks of age. Several results are supported by biophysical simulations.

      Strengths:

      The authors collected data from both male and female mice, at an age (6-10 weeks) that permits comparison with in vivo studies, in sufficient numbers for each condition, and they collected a good number of data points for almost all figure panels. This is all the more positive, considering the demanding nature of multi-electrode recording configurations and pipette-perfusion. The main strength of the study is the question and focus.

      Weaknesses:

      Unfortunately, in its present form, the main claims are not adequately supported by the experimental evidence: primarily because the evidence is indirect and circumstantial, but also because multiple unusual experimental choices (along with poor presentation of results) undermine the reader's confidence. Additionally, the authors overstate the novelty of certain results and fail to cite important related publications. Some of these weaknesses can be addressed by improved analysis and statistics, resolving inconsistent data across figures, reorganizing/improving figure panels, more complete methods, improved citations, and proofreading. In particular, given the emphasis on EPSPs, the primary data (for example EPSPs, overlaid conditions) should be shown much more.

      However, on the experimental side, addressing the reviewer's concerns would require a very substantial additional effort: direct measurement of HCN density at different points in the dendritic arbor and soma; the internal solution chosen here (K-gluconate) is reported to inhibit HCN; bath-applied cesium at the concentrations used blocks multiple potassium channels, i.e. is not selective for HCN (the fact that the more selective blocker ZD7288 was used in a subset of experiments makes the choice of Cs+ as the primary blocker all the more curious); pathway-specific synaptic stimulation, for example via optogenetic activation of specific long-range inputs, to complement / support / verify the layer-specific electrical stimulation.

      We thank the reviewer for their very careful examination of our manuscript and helpful suggestions. We addressed the concerns raised in the review and presented more raw traces in our figures. Although direct dendritic HCN mapping measurements are outside the scope of the current manuscript due to the morphological constraints presented by L2/3 PCs (which explains why no other full dendritic nonlinearity distribution has been described in L2/3 PCs with this method), we nonetheless supplemented our manuscript with additional suggested experiments as suggested. For example, we included the excellent suggestion of pathway-specific optogenetic stimulation to further validate the disparate effect of HCN channels for distal and proximal inputs. We agree that ZD-7288 is a widely accepted blocker of HCN channels. However, the off-target effects on sodium channels may have significantly confounded our measurements of AP output using extracellular stimulation. Therefore, we chose low concentration cesium as the primary blocker for those experiments, but now validated several other Cs<sup>+</sup>-based results with ZD-7288 as well.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I have some issues that need clarification or correction.

      (1) On page 3, line 90, the authors state "We found that bath application of Cs+ (1mM)..." but the methods and Figure 1 state "2mM Cs+". Please check and correct.

      Correct, typo corrected.

      (2) Related to Cs+ application, the methods state that "CsMeSO4 (2mM) was bath applied..." Is this correct? CsMeSO4 is typically used intracellularly while CsCl is used extracellularly. If so, please justify. If not, please correct.

      It is correct. The justification for not using CsCl selectively extracellularly is that introducing intracellular chloride ions can significantly alter basic biophysical properties, unrelated to the cesium effect. However, no similar distinction has been made for CsMeSO4, which would exclude the use of this drug extracellularly.

      (3) The authors normalize the current injections by cell capacitance (pA/pF). Was this done because there is a significant variance in cell morphology? A bit of justification for why the authors chose to normalize the current injection this way would help. If there is significant variation in cell capacitance across cells (or developmental ages), the authors could also include these data.

      Indeed, we choose to normalize current injection to cellular capacitance due to the markedly different morphology of deep and superficial L2/3 PCs. Deeper L2/3 PCs have a pronounced apical branch, closely resembling other pyramidal cell types such as L5 PCs, while superficial L2/3 PC lack a thick main apical branch and instead are equipped with multiple, thinner apical dendrites. This morphological variation would yield an inherent bias in several of the reported measurements, therefore we corrected for it by normalizing current injection to cellular capacitance, similar to our previous recent publications (Olah, Goettemoeller et al., 2022, Goettemoeller et al. 2024, Kumar et al. 2024).

      (4) On page 15, line 445, the section heading is "PV cell NEURON modeling". Is this a typo? The models are of L2/3 pyramidal neurons, correct?  

      Correct, typo corrected.

      (5) Figures 3F and 3I are plots of the voltage integral for different inputs before and after Cs+. The y-axis label units are "pA*ms". This should be "mV*ms" for a voltage integral.  

      Correct, typo corrected.

      (6) On page 9, line 273, the text reads "Voltage clamp experiments revealed that the rectification of steady-state voltage responses to hyperpolarizing current injection was amplified with 5-CT (Fig. 7c)". Both the text and Figure 7C describe current clamp, not voltage clamp, recordings. Please check and correct.

      Correct, typo corrected.

      (7) Figure 2i looks to be a normalized conductance vs voltage (i.e. activation) plot. The y-axis shows 0-1 but the units are in nS. Is that a coincidence or an error?

      Correct, typo corrected.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      This is your paper. My comments are my own opinion, I don't expect you to agree or to respond. But I hope that what I wrote below will help you to understand my perspective.

      Please pardon my directness (and sheer volume) in this section - I have a lot of notes/thoughts and hope you may find some of them helpful. My high-level comments are unfortunately rather critical, and in (small) part that is because I encountered too many errors/typos/ambiguities in figures, legend, and text. I expect many would be caught with good proofreading, but uncorrected caused confusion on my part, or an inability to interpret your figures with confidence, given some ambiguity.

      The paper reads a bit like patchwork - likely a result of many "helpful" reviewers who came before me. Consider starting with and focusing on the synaptic findings, expanding the number of figures and panels dedicated to that, showing example traces for all conditions, and giving yourself the space to portray these complex experiments and results. While I'm not a fan of a large number of supplemental figures, I feel you could move the "extra" results to the supplementals to improve the focus and get right to the meat of it.

      For me, the main concern is that the evidence you present for the non-uniform HCN distribution is rather indirect. Ideally, I'd like to see patch recordings from various dendritic locations (as others have done in rats, at least; I'm not sure if L2/3 mice have had such conductance density measurements made in basal and apical dendrites). Otherwise, perhaps optical mapping, either functional or via staining. I also mention some concerns about the choice of internal and cesium. More generally, I want to see more primary data (traces), in particular for the big synaptic findings (non-uniform, L1-vs-L4 differences, NMDAR).

      We thank the reviewer for the helpful suggestions. Indeed, direct patch clamp recording is widely considered to be the best method to identify dendritic ion channel distribution, however, we choose an in silico approach instead, for several reasons. Undoubtedly, one of the main reasons to omit direct dendritic recordings was that due to the uniquely narrow apical dendrites this method is extremely challenging, with no previous examples in the literature where isolated dendritic outside-out patch recordings were achieved from this cell type. However, there are theoretical considerations as well. In primates, it has been demonstrated that HCN1 channels are concentrated on dendritic spines (Datta et al., 2023) therefore direct outside-out recordings are not adequate in these circumstances. In future experiments we could directly target L2/3 PC dendrites for outside out recordings in order to resolve dendritic nonlinearity distribution, although a cell-attached methodology may be better suited due to the HCN biophysical properties being closely regulated by intracellular signaling pathways.

      The introduction and Figures 1 and 2 are not so interesting and not entirely accurate: L2/3 do not have "abundant" HCN, nor is there an actual controversy about whether they have HCN. It's been clear (published) for years that they have about the same as all other non-PT neocortical pyramidal neurons (see e.g. Larkum 2007; Sheets 2011). Your own Figure 1A has a logarithmic scale and shows L2/3 as having the lowest expression (?) of all pyramidals and roughly 10x lower than L5 PT, but the text says "comparable", which is misleading.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. Although there are sporadic reports in the literature about the HCN content of L2/3 PCs, most of these publications arrive to the same conclusion from the negligible sag potential (as the mentioned Larkum et al., 2007 publication); namely that L2/3 PCs do not contain significant amount of HCN channels. We have shown with voltage and current clamp recordings that this assumption is false, as sag potential is not a reliable indicator of HCN content in L2/3 PCs. With the term “controversial” we aimed to highlight the different conclusions of functional investigations (e.g. Sheets et al., 2011) and sag potential recordings (e.g. Larkum et al., 2007), regarding the importance of HCN channels in L2/3 PCs.

      Non-uniform HCN with distal lower density has already been published for a (rare) pyramidal neuron in CA1 (Bullis 2007), similar to what you found in L2/3, and different from the main CA1 population.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have now included the mentioned citation in the introduction section (page 3).

      Express sag as a ratio or percentage, consistently. Figure out why in Figure 7 the average sag ratio is 0.02 while in Fig. S1 it is 0.07 (for V1) - that is a massive difference.

      The calculation of sag ratio is consistent across the manuscript (at -6pA.pF), except for experiments depicted in Fig. 7 where sag ratio was calculated from -2pA/pF steps. Explanation below:

      Sag should be measured at a common membrane potential, with each neuron receiving a current pulse appropriate to reach that potential. Your approach of capacitance-based may allow for the same, but it is not clear which responses are used to calculate a single sag value per cell (as in Figure 2d).

      Thank you, we now included this info in the methods section. Sag potential was measured at the -6 pA/pF step peak voltage, except for Fig. 7 as noted above. We have now included this discrepancy detail in the methods section (page 14 ). These recordings in Fig. 7 took significantly longer than any other recording in the manuscript, as it took a considerable time to reach steady-state response from 5-CT application. -6pA/pF is a current injection in the range of 400-800 pA, which was proven to be too severe for continued application in cells after more than an hour of recording. Accordingly, we decided to lower the hyperpolarizing current step in these recordings. The absolute value of sag is thus different in Fig. 7, but nonetheless the 5-CT effect was still significant. Notably, we probably wouldn’t have noticed the small sag in L2/3 here (and thus the entire study), save for the fact that we looked at -6pA/pF to begin.

      In a paper focused on HCN, I would have liked to see resonance curves in the passive characterization.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. Resonance curves can indeed provide useful insights into the impact of HCN on a cell’s physiological behavior, however, these experiments are outside the scope of our current manuscript as without in vivo recordings, resonance curves do not contribute to the manuscript in our opinion.

      How did you identify L2/3? Did you target cells in L2 or L3 or in the middle, or did you sample across the full layer width for each condition? A quantitative diagram showing where you patched (soma) and where you stimulated (L1, L4) with actual measurements, would be helpful (supplemental perhaps). You mention in the text that some L2/3 don't have a tuft, suggesting some variability in morphology - some info on this would be useful, i.e. since you did fill at least some of the neurons (eg 3A), how similar/different are the dendritic arbors?

      We sampled the entire L2/3 region during our recordings. It has been published that deep and superficial L2/3  PCs are markedly different in their morphology, and a recent publication (Brandelise et al. 2023) has even separated these two subpopulations to broad-tufted and slender tufted pyramidal cells, which receive distinct subcortical inputs. Although this differentiation opens exciting avenues for future research, examining potential layer gradients in our dataset would warrant significantly higher sample numbers and is currently out of the scope of our manuscript.

      Distal vs proximal: this could use more clarification, considering how central it is to your results. What about a synapse on a basal dendrite, but 150 or 200 um from the soma, is that considered proximal? Is the distance to the soma you report measured along the 3D dendrite, along the 2D dendrite, as a straight line to the soma, or just relative to some layers or cortical markers? (I apologize if I missed this).

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the missing description in the results section. We have amended this oversight (p15).  Furthermore, although deeper L3 PCs have characteristic apical and basal dendritic branches, when recordings were made from more superficial L2 cells, a large portion of their dendrites extended radially, which made their classification ambiguous. Therefore, we did not use “apical” and “basal” terminology in the paper to avoid confusion. Distances were measured along the 3D reconstructed surface of the recovered pyramidal cells. This information is now included in the methods.

      Line 445, "PV cell NEURON modeling" ... hmm. Everyone re-uses methods sections to some degree, but this is not confidence-inspiring, and also not from a proofreading perspective.

      We have corrected the typo.

      It seems that you constructed a new HCN NEURON mechanism when several have been published/reviewed already. Please explain your reasons or at least comment on the differences.

      There are slight differences in our model compared to previously published models. Nevertheless, we took a previously published HCN model as a base (Gasparini et al, 2004), and created our own model to fit our whole-cell voltage clamp recordings.

      Bath-applied Cs+ can change synaptic transmission (in the hippocampus; Chevaleyre 2002). But also ZD7288 has some such effects. Also, see (Harris 1995) for a Cs+ and ZD7288 comparison. As well as (Harris 1994) for more Cs+ side-effects (it broadens APs, etc). Bath-applied blockers may affect both long-range and local synapses in your recordings, via K-channels or perhaps presynaptic HCN (though I am aware of your Fig. 1e). Since you can do intracellular perfusion, you could apply ZD7288 postsynaptically (Sheets 2011), an elegant solution.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We were aware of the potential presynaptic effects of cesium (i.e., presynaptic Kv or other channel effects) and did measure PPR after cesium application (Fig. 1h), noting no effect. At Cs<sup>+</sup> concentrations used here, we now also include new data in the results showing no effect on somatically recorded AP waveform (i.e., representative of a Kv channel effect). As stated earlier for reviewer 1, we now performed additional experiments using either cesium or ZD-7288 for comparison (e.g., see updated Fig. 1; Supplementary Figure 1; Fig. 3b-e). Intracellular ZD re-perfusion is an elegant solution which we will absolutely consider in future experiments.

      K-Gluconate is reported to inhibit Ih (Velumian 1997), consider at least some control experiments with a different internal for the main synaptic finding - maybe you'll find no big change ...

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. Although K-Gluconate can inhibit HCN current, the use of this intracellular solution is often used in the literature to measure this current (Huang & Trussel 2014). We have chosen this intracellular solution to improve recording stability.  

      (Biel 2009) is a very comprehensive HCN review, you may find it useful.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing this to our attention, we have now included the citation in the introduction.

      "Hidden" in your title seems too much.

      We changed the title to more accurately describe our findings and removed ‘hidden’.

      While I'm glad you didn't record at room temperature, the choice of 30C seems a bit unfortunate - if you go to the trouble to heat the bath, why not at least 34C, which is reasonably standard as an approximation for physiological temperature?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. The choice of 30C was made to approach physiological temperature levels, while preserving the slices for extended amounts of time which is a standard approach. Future experiments in vivo be performed to further understand the naturalistic relevance at ~37C.

      Line 506: do you mean "Hz" here? It's not a frequency, is it? I think it's a unitless ratio?

      Correct, we have amended the typo.

      Line 95: you have not shown that HCN is "essential" for "excess" AP firing.

      We have corrected the phrasing, we agree.

      Fig. 2b,c: is this data from a single example neuron, maybe the same neuron as in 2a? Or from all recorded neurons pooled?

      The data is from several recorded cells pooled.

      Fig. 3 (important figure):

      Why did you not use a paired test for panels e and f? You have the same number of neurons for each condition and the expectation is that you record each neuron in control and then in cesium condition, which would be a paired comparison. Or did you record only 1 condition per neuron?

      This figure presents your main finding (in my opinion). You should show examples of the synaptic responses, i.e. raw traces, for each condition and panel, and overlaid in such a way that the reader can immediately see the relevant comparison - it's worth the space it requires.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestions. Traces are only overlaid in the paper when they come from the same cell. For Fig. 3d-i, EPSPs in every neuron were evoked in 2-3 different locations (i.e., 1-2 ‘L4’ locations for Type-I and Type-II synapses, and one ‘L1’ location in each) with the same stimulation pipette and one pharmacological condition per cell. Therefore two-sample t-test were used since the control and cesium conditions came from separate cells (i.e., separate observations). This was necessary, as we can never assume that the stimulating electrode can return back to the same synapse after moving it. We were not comfortable with showing overlaid traces from different cells, however, we did show representative traces from control and the Cs<sup>+</sup> conditions in Fig. 3h. Complementary ZD-7288 experiments can be found on panel b and c, where we did perform within-cell pharmacology (and thus used paired t-tests) from one stimulation area/cell. We hope these complementary experiments increase overall confidence as neither pharmacological approach is 100% without off-target effects. We now also included more overlaid traces where appropriate (i.e., Fig. 3b, and in the new  Fig. 3k experiments using within-cell pharmacology comparisons). We do realize these complementary approaches could cause confusion to the reader, and have now done our best to make the slightly different approaches in this Figure clearer in the results section.

      Consider repeating at least some of these critical experiments with ZD7288 instead of Cs+ (and not K-gluc), or even with ZD7288 pipette perfusion, if it's technically feasible here.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestions. Although many of our recordings using Cs<sup>+</sup> already had complementary experiments (such as synaptic experiments Figure 3e vs Figure 3b), we recognize the need to extend the manuscript with more ZD-7288 experiments. We have now extended Figure 1 with three panels (Figure 1 c,d,e), which recapitulates a fundamental finding, the change in overall excitability upon HCN channel blockade, using ZD-7288 as well.

      Fig. 3a, why show a schematic (and weirdly scaled) stimulating electrode? Don't you have a BF photo showing the actual stimulating electrode, which you could trace to scale or overlay? Could you use this panel to indicate what counts as "distal" and what as "proximal", visually?

      The stimulating electrode was unfortunately not filled with florescent materials, therefore it was not captured during the z-stack.

      Fig. 3b: is the y-axis labeled correctly? A "100% change" would mean a doubling, but based on the data points here I think y=100% means "no change"?

      The scale is labeled correctly, 100% means doubling.

      Fig. 3b, c: again, show traces representing distal and proximal, not just one example (without telling us how far it was). And use those traces to illustrate the half-width measurement, which may be non-trivial.

      We have extended Figure 3b with an inset showing the effect of ZD-7288 on a proximal stimulating site. The legend now includes additional information indicating stimulating location 28 µm away from the soma in control conditions (black trace) and upon Z-7288 application (green trace).  

      Line 543, 549: it seems you swapped labels "h" and "i"?

      Typo corrected.

      Fig. 4b: to me, MK-801 only *partially* blocks amplification, but in the text L198 you write "abolish".

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. Indeed, there are several other subthreshold mechanisms that are still intact after pipette perfusion, which can cause amplification. We have now clarified this in the text (p7).

      Fig. 4e,f: what is the message? Uniform NMDAR? The red asterisk in (e) is at a proximal/distal ratio of roughly 1. I don't understand the meaning of the asterisk (the legend is too basic) and I'm surprised to see a ratio of 1 as the best fit, and also that the red asterisk is at a dendritic distance of 0 um in (f). This could use more explanation (if you feel it's relevant).

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We have now included a better explanation in the results and figure legend. We have also updated the figure to make it clearer and added model traces in Fig. 4f, which correspond to example data from slices in Fig. 4g (both green). The graph suggests nonuniform, proximally abundant NMDA distribution. The color coding corresponds to the proximal EPSP halfwidth divided by distal EPSP halfwidth. It is true that the dendritic distance ‘center’ was best-fit very close to the soma, but also note the dispersion (distribution) half-width was >150mm, so there is quite a significant dendritic spread despite the proximal bias prediction. Based on this model there is likely NMDA spread throughout the entire dendrite, but biased proximally. Naturally, future work will need to map this at the spine level so this is currently an oversimplification. Nonetheless, a proximal NMDA bias was necessary to recapitulate findings from Fig. 3, and additional slice recordings in Fig. 4 were consistent with this interpretation.

      Fig. 4g: I feel your choice of which traces to overlay is focusing on the wrong question. As the reader, what I want to see here is an overlay of all 4 conditions for one pathway. If this is a sequential recording in a single cell (Cs, Cs+MK801, wash out Cs, MK801), then the overlay would be ideal and need not be scaled. Otherwise, you can scale it. But the L1/L4 comparison does not seem appropriate to me. I find myself trying to imagine what all the dark lines would look like overlaid, and all the light lines overlaid separately. Also, the time axis is missing from this panel. Consider a subtraction of traces (if appropriate).

      In these recordings, all EPSPs cells were measured using a stimulating electrode that was moved between L1 and L4 (only once, to keep the exact input consistent) to measure the different inputs in a single neuron. In separate sets of experiments, the same method was used but in the presence of Cs<sup>+</sup>, Cs<sup>+</sup> + MK-801, or MK-801 alone. This was the most controlled method in our hands for this type of approach, as drug wash outs were either impractical or not possible.  Overlaying four traces would have presented a more cluttered image, and were not actually performed experimentally. As our aim was to resolve the proximal-distal halfwidth relationship, therefore we deemed the within-cell L1 vs. L4 comparison appropriate. We have nonetheless added model traces in Fig. 4f, which correspond to example data from slices in Fig. 4g (both green). The bar graphs should serve also serve to illustrate the input-specific  relationship- i.e., that the only time the L1 and L4 EPSP relationship was inverted was in the presence of Cs<sup>+</sup> (green bars) and that this effect was occluded with simultaneous MK-801 in the pipette (red bars).

      Line 579: should "hyperpolarized" be depolarized?

      Corrected

      Fig. 5a: it looks like the HCN density is high in the most basal dendrites (black curve above), then drops towards the soma, then rises again in the apicals (red curve). Is that indeed how the density was modeled? If so, this is completely at odds with the impression I received from reading your text and experimental data - there, "proximal" seems to mean where the L4 axons are, and "distal" seems to mean where the L1 axons are, in other words, high HCN towards the pia and low HCN towards the white matter. But this diagram suggests a biphasic hill-valley-hill distribution of HCN (meaning there is a second "distal" region below the soma). In that case, would the laterally-distant basal dendrites also be considered distal? How does the model implement the distribution - is it 1D, 2D or 3D? As you can probably tell, this figure raised more questions for me and made me wonder why I don't have a better understanding yet of your definitions.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We agree our initial cartoon of the parameter fitting procedure was not accurate and should have just been depicted a single ‘curve’. We have now simplified it to better demonstrate what the model is testing, and also made the terms more consistent and accurate. There is no ‘second’ region in the model. We hope this better illustrates it now. We also edited the legend to be clearer. Because the model description in Fig. 4d suffered from similar shortcomings, we also modified it accordingly as well as the figure legend there.

      Fig. 5b: why is the best fit at a proximal/distal ratio of 1, yet sigma is 50 um?

      Proximal/distal bias on this figure was fitted to 0.985 (prox/distal ratio) as we modeled control conditions, with intact NDMA and HCN channels,  which closely approximated the control recording comparisons.

      Fig. 6h, Line 662: "vs CsMeSO4 ... for putative LGN events" The panel shows proximal vs distal, not control vs Cs+. What's going on here?

      Typo corrected.

      Fig. 7e: the ctrl sag ratio here averages 0.02, while in Fig. S1 the average (for V1 and others) is about 0.07.  Please refer to our answer given to the previous question regarding sag ratio measurements. Briefly, recordings made with 5-CT application were made using a less severe, -2 pA/pF current injection to test seg responses. This more modest hyperpolarization activated less HCN channels, therefore the sag ratio is lower compared to previously reported datapoints.

      We have included this explanation in the methods section (page 14)

      Now hear you are using a paired test for this pharmacology, but you didn't previously (see my earlier comments/questions).

      Paired t-test were used for these experiments as these control and test datapoints came from the same cell. Cells were recorded in control conditions, and after drug application.

      Line 137: single-axon activation: but cortical axons make multi-synaptic contacts, at least for certain types of pre- and post-synaptic neurons, and (e.g. in L5-L5 pairs) those contacts can be distributed across the entire dendritic arbor. In other words, it's possible that when you stimulate in L1, you activate local axons, and the signal could then propagate to multiple synaptic contact locations, some being distal and some proximal. Maybe you have reasons to believe you're able to avoid this?

      We thank the reviewer for this question. Cortical axons often make distributed contacts, however, top-down and bottom-up pathways innervating L2/3 PCs are at least somewhat restricted to L2/3/L4 and L1, respectively (Shen et al. 2022, Sermet et al. 2019). Therefore, due to the lack evidence suggesting a heavily mixed topographical distribution for top-down and bottom-up inputs, we have reason to believe that L1 stimulation will result in mainly distal input recruitment, while L4 stimulation will mainly excite proximal dendritic regions. The resolution of our experiments was also improved by the minimal stimulation and visual guidance (subset of experiments) of the stimulation. Furthermore, new optogenetic experiments stimulating LGN and LM axons, which have been anatomically defined previously as biased to deeper layers and L1, respectively, were now also performed (Fig. 3j-l) with analogous cesium effects as our local electrical stimulation experiments. Future work using varying optogenetic stimulation parameters will expand on this.

      L140: "previous reports" ==> citation needed.

      We have inserted the citation needed.

      L149: "arriving to layer 1"; but I think earlier you noted that some or many L2/3 neurons lack a dendritic tuft; do they all nevertheless have dendrites in L1? Note that cortico-cortical long-range axons still need to pass through all cortical layers on their way up to L1.

      We thank the reviewer for the question. Although the more superficial L2/3 PCs lack distinct apical tuft, their dendrites reach the pia similarly to deeper L2/3 PCs. All of our recorded and post-hoc recovered cells had dendrites in L1, except in cases where they were clearly cut during the slicing procedure, which cells were occluded from the study.

      When you write "L4 axons" or "L4 inputs", do you specifically mean long-range thalamic axons? Or axons from local L4 neurons? What about axons in L4 that originate from L5 pyramidal neurons?

      In case of ‘L4’ axons, we cannot disambiguate these inputs a priori, as they are both part of the bottom-up pathway, and are possibly experimentally indistinguishable. Even with restricted opto LGN stimulation, disynaptic inputs via L4 PCs cannot be completely ruled out under our conditions. On the other hand, the probability of L5 PC axons to terminate on L2/3 PCs is exceedingly low (single reported connection out of 1145 potential connections; Hage et al. 2022). We did find two clearly different synaptic subpopulations (Supp. Fig 3) in L4- which was tempting to classify as one or the other. However we felt there was not enough evidence in the literature as well as our additional optogenetic experiments to make a classification on the source of these different L4 inputs. Thus we deemed them as Type-I or Type-II for now.

      Do you inject more holding current to compensate for the resting membrane potential when Cs+ or ZD7288 is in the bath?

      We thank the reviewer for the question. We did not inject a compensatory current, as we wanted to investigate the dual, physiologically relevant action of HCN channels (George et al. 2009)

      I'd like to see distributions (histograms) of L4 and L1 EPSP amplitudes, under control conditions and ideally also under HCN block.

      We have now extended the manuscript with a supplementary figure (Supplementary Figure 6) to show that EPSP peak was not distance dependent in control conditions, and there was no relationship between peak and halfwidth in our dataset.

      Line 186, custom pipette perfusion: why not use this for internal ZD7288, to make it cell-specific?

      We thank the reviewer for the question, this is a good point. In future work we will consider this when applicable. It is certainly a way to control for bath application confounds in many ways.

      L205: "recapitulate our experimental findings" - which findings do you mean? I think a bit of explanation/referencing would help.

      Corrected.

      Line 210: L4-evoked were narrower than L1-evoked: is this not expected based on filtering?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out, the word “Intriguingly” has been omitted.

      Line 231 and 235: "in L5 PCs" should be restricted to L5 PT-type PCs.

      We have corrected this throughout the manuscript.

      Neuromodulation, Fig. 7, L263-282: the neuromodulation finding is interesting. However, a bit like the developmental figure, it feels "tacked on" and the transition feels a bit awkward. I think you may want to discuss/cite more of the existing literature on neuromodulatory interactions with HCN (not just L2/3). Most importantly, what I feel is missing is a connection to your main finding, namely L1 and L4 inputs. Does serotonergic neuromodulation put L1 and L4 back on equal footing, or does it exaggerate the differences?

      We thank the reviewer for the question. We agree with the reviewer that Figure 7 does not give a complete picture about how the adult brain can capitalize on this channel distribution, as our intention was to show that HCN channels are not a stationary feature of L2/3 PC, but a feature which can be regulated developmentally and even in the adult brain via neuromodulation. In other words, the subthreshold NMDA boosting we observed can be gated by HCN, depending on developmental stage and/or neuromodulatory state of the system. We have now added some brief language to better introduce the transition and its relevance to the current study in the results (p8), and discussed the implications in the discussion section of the original manuscript.

      General comment: different types/sources of synapses may have different EPSP kinetics. I feel this is not mentioned/discussed adequately, considering your emphasis on EPSPs/HCN.

      See points above on input-specific synaptic diversity.

      Line 319/320: enriched distal HCN is found in L5 PT-type, not in all L5 PCs.

      Corrected

      L320: CA1 reportedly has a subset of pyramidal neurons that have higher proximal HCN than distal (I gave the citation above). In light of that, I think "unprecedented" is an overstatement.

      Corrected.

      Methods:

      L367: What form of anesthesia was used?

      Amended.

      Which brain areas, and how?

      Amended.

      Why did you first hold slices at 34C, but during recording hold at 30C?

      We held the slices at 34C to accelerate the degradation of superficial damaged parts of the slice, which is in line with currently used acute slice preparation methodologies, regardless of the subsequent recording temperature.

      Pipette resistance/tip size?

      Amended.

      Cell-attached recordings (L385): provide details of recordings. What was the command potential (fixed value, or did you adjust it per neuron by some criteria)?

      Amended.

      What type of stimulating electrode did you use? If glass, what solution is inside, and what tip size?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing these out, the specific points were added to the methods section.

      L392/393: you adjusted the holding (bias) current to sit at -80 mV. What were the range and max values of holding current? Was -80 mV the "raw" potential, or did it account for liquid junction? If you did not account for liquid junction potential, then would -80 in your hands effectively be between -95 and -90 mV? That seems unusually hyperpolarized.

      All cells were held with bias holding currents between -50 pA and 150 pA. To be clear, as mentioned below, we did not change the bias current after any drug applications. We did not correct for liquid junction potential, and cells were ‘held‘ with bias current at -80 mV as during our recordings, as 1) this value was apparently close to the RMP (i.e. little bias current needed at this voltage on average) (Fig. 2e) and 2) to keep consistent conditions across recordings. The uncorrected -80 mV is in the range of previously reported membrane potential values both in vivo and in vitro (Svoboda et al. 1999, Oswald et al. 2008, Luo et al. 2017), which found the (corrected) RMP to be below -80mV. Naturally this will not reflect every in vivo condition completely and further investigation using naturalistic conditions in the future are warranted.  

      Did you adjust the bias current during/after pharmacology?

      Bias current was not adjusted in order to resolve the effect on resting membrane potential.

      L398: sag calculation could use better explanation: how did you combine/analyze multiple steps from a single neuron when calculating sag? Did you choose one level (how) or did you average across step sizes or ...?

      Sag ratio was measured at -6 pA/pF current step except for one set of experiments in Fig. 7. Methods section was amended.

      L400, 401: 10 uM Alexa-594 or 30 um Alexa-594, which is correct?

      10 µM is correct, typo was corrected

      L445: "PV cell" seems like a typo?

      Typo is corrected.

      L450: "altered", please describe the algorithm or manual process.

      Alterations were made manually.

      L474: NDMA, typo.

      Typo is fixed.

      L474: "were adjusted", again please describe the process.

      Adjustments were made by a grid-search algorithm.

      Biel, M., Wahl-Schott, C., Michalakis, S., & Zong, X. (2009). Hyperpolarization-activated cation channels: from genes to function. Physiological reviews, 89(3), 847-885. https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/physrev.00029.2008 - (very comprehensive review of HCN)

      Bullis JB, Jones TD, Poolos NP. Reversed somatodendritic I(h) gradient in a class of rat hippocampal neurons with pyramidal morphology. J Physiol. 2007 Mar 1;579(Pt 2):431-43. doi: 10.1113/jphysiol.2006.123836. Epub 2006 Dec 21. PMID: 17185334; PMCID: PMC2075407. https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1113/jphysiol.2006.123836 - (CA1 subset (PLPs) have a reversed HCN gradient; cell-attached patches, NMDAR)

      Velumian AA, Zhang L, Pennefather P, Carlen PL. Reversible inhibition of IK, IAHP, Ih, and ICa currents by internally applied gluconate in rat hippocampal pyramidal neurones. Pflugers Arch. 1997 Jan;433(3):343-50. doi: 10.1007/s004240050286. PMID: 9064651. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s004240050286 - (K-Gluc internal inhibits HCN)

      Sheets, P. L., Suter, B. A., Kiritani, T., Chan, C. S., Surmeier, D. J., & Shepherd, G. M. (2011). Corticospinal-specific HCN expression in mouse motor cortex: I h-dependent synaptic integration as a candidate microcircuit mechanism involved in motor control. Journal of neurophysiology, 106(5), 2216-2231. https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/jn.00232.2011 - (L2/3 IT have same sag ratio as all other non-PT pyramidals, roughly 5% (vs 20% PT); intracellular ZD7288 used at 10 or 25 um)

      Harris NC, Constanti A. Mechanism of block by ZD 7288 of the hyperpolarization-activated inward rectifying current in guinea pig substantia nigra neurons in vitro. J Neurophysiol. 1995 Dec;74(6):2366-78. doi: 10.1152/jn.1995.74.6.2366. PMID: 8747199. https://journals.physiology.org/doi/abs/10.1152/jn.1995.74.6.2366 - (comparison Cs+ and ZD7288)

      Harris, N. C., Libri, V., & Constanti, A. (1994). Selective blockade of the hyperpolarization-activated cationic current (Ih) in guinea pig substantia nigra pars compacta neurones by a novel bradycardic agent, Zeneca ZM 227189. Neuroscience letters, 176(2), 221-225. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0304394094900876 - (Cs+ is not HCN-selective; it also broadens APs, reduces the AHP)

      Chevaleyre, V., & Castillo, P. E. (2002). Assessing the role of Ih channels in synaptic transmission and mossy fiber LTP. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 99(14), 9538-9543. https://pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.142213199 - (Cs+ blocks K channels, increases transmitter release; but also ZD7288 affects synaptic transmission)

      Thank you

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      Early-life adversity or stress can enhance stress susceptibility by causing changes in emotion, cognition, and reward-seeking behaviors. This important manuscript highlights the involvement of lateral amygdala astrocytes in fear generalization and the associated synaptic plasticity, which are parallel to the effects of early life stress. With an elegant combination of behavioral models, morphological and functional assessments using immunostaining, electrophysiology, and viral-mediated loss-of-function approaches, the authors provide solid correlational and causal evidence that is consistent with the hypothesis that early life stress produces neural and behavioral dysfunction via perturbing lateral amygdala astrocytic function.

      We would like to thank the authors and editors for taking the time to review our work, and re-review it now. Also, we are grateful for this very positive assessment of our work. In this revised manuscript we made a strong effort to address comments made by all reviewers, providing clarification where required and new data to our manuscript in order to further support our observations.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript asks the question of whether astrocytes contribute to behavioral deficits triggered by early life stress. This question is tested by experiments that monitor the effects of early life stress on anxiety-like behaviors, long-term potentiation in the lateral amygdala, and immunohistochemistry of astrocyte-specific (GFAP, Cx43, GLT-1) and general activity (c-Fos ) markers. Secondarily, astrocyte activity in the lateral amygdala is impaired by viruses that suppress gap-junction coupling or reduce astrocyte Ca2+ followed by behavioral, synaptic plasticity, and c-Fos staining. Early life stress is found to reduce the expression of GFAP and Cx43 and to induce translocation of the glucocorticoid receptor to astrocytic nuclei. Both early life stress and astrocyte manipulations are found to result in the generalization of fear to neutral auditory cues. All of the experiments are done well with appropriate statistics and control groups. The manuscript is very well-written and the data are presented clearly. The authors' conclusion that lateral amygdala astrocytes regulate amygdala-dependent behaviors is strongly supported by the data. However, the extent to which astrocytes contribute to behavioral and neuronal consequences of early life stress remains open to debate.

      Strengths:

      A strong combination of behavioral, electrophysiology, and immunostaining approaches is utilized and possible sex differences in behavioral data are considered. The experiments clearly demonstrate that disruption of astrocyte networks or reduction of astrocyte Ca2+ provokes generalization of fear and impairs long-term potentiation in the lateral amygdala. The provocative finding that astrocyte dysfunction accounts for a subset of behavioral effects of early life stress (e.g. not elevated plus or distance traveled observations) is also perceived as a strength.

      Weaknesses:

      The main weakness is the absence of more direct evidence that behavioral and neuronal plasticity after early life stress can be attributed to astrocytes. It remains unknown what would happen if astrocyte activity were disrupted concurrently with early life stress or if the facilitation of astrocyte Ca2+ would attenuate early life stress outcomes. As is, the only evidence that early life stress involves astrocytes is nuclear translocation of GR and downregulation of GFAP and Cx43 in Figure 3 which may or may not provoke astrocyte Ca2+ or astrocyte network activity changes.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for their constructive feedback on our work. In the revised version we have added new experiments that further support a role of astrocytes in ELS-induced behavioural dysfunction. Specifically, we carried out two-photon calcium imaging in lateral amygdala astrocytes using viral overexpression of membrane tethered GCaMP6f. These experiments revealed a decrease in astrocyte calcium activity following ELS (Figure 4). Interestingly these data also showed an important number of sex differences (Figure 4 - Figure supplement 1).

      These new data allow us to strengthen the link between ELS-induced astrocyte hypofunction and behavioural changes. Indeed, we validated the impact of CalEx on astrocyte calcium activity in the lateral amygdala, again using two-photon microscopy, and show that CalEx resulted in an astrocyte calcium signature that very closely resembled that of ELS, i.e. reduced frequency and amplitude of events (Figure 5 - Figure supplement 2). As such, we feel like these data, while still correlative in nature, strengthen our findings and conclusion that astrocyte dysfunction alone is sufficient to recapitulate the effects of stress on excitability, synaptic function, and behaviour.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Guayasamin et al. show that early-life stress (ELS) can induce a shift in fear generalisation in mice. They took advantage of a fear conditioning paradigm followed by a discrimination test and complemented learning and memory findings with measurements for anxiety-like behaviors. Next, astrocytic dysfunction in the lateral amygdala was investigated at the cellular level by combining staining for c-Fos with astrocyte-related proteins. Changes in excitatory neurotransmission were observed in acute brains slices after ELS suggesting impaired communication between neurons and astrocytes. To confirm the causality of astrocytic-neuronal dysfunction in behavioral changes, viral manipulations were performed in unstressed mice. Occlusion of functional coupling with a dominant negative construct for gap junction connexin 43 or reduction in astrocytic calcium with CalEx mimicked the behavioral changes observed after ELS suggesting that dysfunction of the astrocytic network underlies ELS-induced memory impairments.

      Strengths:

      Overall, this well-written manuscript highlights a key role for astrocytes in regulating stress-induced behavioral and synaptic deficits in the lateral amygdala in the context of ELS. Results are innovative, and methodological approaches relevant to decipher the role of astrocytes in behaviors. As mentioned by the authors, non-neuronal cells are receiving increasing attention in the neuroscience, stress, and psychiatry fields.

      Weaknesses:

      I do have several suggestions and comments to address that I believe will improve the clarity and impact of the work. For example, there is currently a lack of information on the timeline for behavioral experiments, tissue collection, etc.

      We thank the reviewer for their kind comments and constructive feedback on our manuscript. We agree that certain aspects could have been made more clear and we have revised the manuscript and figures to be more explicit regarding timelines. Including the addition of timelines on figures and improved clarity in the text where possible. We have also addressed the private comments provided by the reviewers alluded to in this public review.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary

      The authors show that ELS induces a number of brain and behavioral changes in the adult lateral amygdala. These changes include enduring astrocytic dysfunction, and inducing astrocytic dysfunction via genetic interventions is sufficient to phenocopy the behavioral and neural phenotypes. This suggests that astrocyte dysfunction may play a causal role in ELS-associated pathologies.

      Strengths:

      A strength is the shift in focus to astrocytes to understand how ELS alters adult behavior.

      Weaknesses:

      The mechanistic links between some of the correlates - altered astrocytic function, changes in neural excitability, and synaptic plasticity in the lateral amygdala and behaviour - are underdeveloped.

      We thank the reviewer for their comments. We are happy that they found our shift in focus towards astrocytes to be a strength of our work. Regarding mechanistic links being underdeveloped, we have attempted to address this by placing more effort into understanding the functional changes in astrocytes and how this relates to behaviour.

      To address this comment we have used two-photon calcium imaging to quantify the impact of ELS on astrocyte calcium activity. As such, the revised manuscript contains several new figures including a detailed characterisation of the effects of ELS on astrocyte calcium activity (Figure 4), including sex differences in naive and the effects of stress (Figure 4 - Figure supplement 1), and an important validation of the impact of CalEx on astrocyte calcium activity. CalEx mirrors the impact of stress on astrocyte calcium activity reducing the frequency and amplitude of individual events (Figure 5 - Figure supplement 2).

      Considering the strong overlap of the effects of ELS and CalEx on synapses, excitability, behaviour, and now astrocyte calcium activity, we hope that this added detail addresses some of the points highlighted by the reviewer.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      The reviewers all agree on one major issue for the authors to address. There is a bit of a lack of mechanistic linking between the astrocyte function and the early life stress and these data are more correlational than causal in nature. This could either be addressed by scaling back the data interpretation and title to be more reflective of the data at hand or if the authors would consider, doing the causal experiment of examining the manipulation of astrocyte activity following early life stress to see if this does influence the phenotype.

      We agree with reviewers on this issue and realise that we have overstated our findings somewhat. As an immediate fix, suggested by reviewers, we have changed the title to more closely align with our data stating that astrocyte dysfunction is “associated with” rather than “induces” as well as adjusting our interpretations.

      In addition to this one major comment, there are a list of minor comments that the authors should consider to improve the manuscript.

      (1) A major caveat is the lack of information on the timeline for behavioral experiments, tissue collection, etc. The authors mention "Mice between ages P45-70' but considering the developmental changes occurring between late adolescence and young adulthood, I recommend adding timelines on all Figures clearly indicating when behavioral tests were performed, and tissue collected for electrophysiology or immunostaining. With corticosterone (CORT) back at baseline at P70 vs a difference observed at P45 was this time point favored? It should be clarified throughout.

      We apologise for the lack of clarity on this and have added more timelines on figures.

      The age range favoured (p45-p70), relates to adolescence a time when latent psychiatric disorders tend to manifest in humans following early-life adversity. We have clarified this choice in the text.

      (2) Given the transient increase in corticosterone levels in early-life stress mice, peaking at P45 and declining to control levels by P70, it would be informative to know whether the reported behavioral and synaptic changes differ within this time window. This may not be doable in the current approach, but this should be addressed nonetheless. Furthermore, it wasn't clear why the increase in blood corticosterone was delayed. Was this expected? How does this relate to earlier work? Wouldn't it be expected to be elevated at P17 (end of ELS period)?

      We agree that this observation was very unexpected. Initially, we expected CORT to be elevated at P17, end of ELS period. We believe that low CORT levels during the ELS paradigm can be attributed to this paradigm coinciding with the stress hyporesponsive period (SHRP) which in rodents lasts until roughly postnatal day 14. During this period, mild stressors fail to elicit CORT responses. Considering our ELS paradigm lasts from P10-P17, there is a significant overlap with the SHRP.

      This point is now included in the discussion with several citations regarding this biological phenomenon, as well as other studies that report similar findings to our own, i.e. a delayed increase in blood corticosterone levels following early-life stress.

      (3) It is mentioned that behavioral tests were performed in both sexes with no sex differences observed. Were animals of both sexes also included in other experiments (ephys, immunostaining, blood CORT analysis)? Behavioral outcomes could be the same but underlying biological processes different. This is a topic that should be discussed. Identification of males vs females on graphs would be helpful.

      We apologise for not having provided this data in the previous version of the manuscript. In the revised manuscript we provide analysis of sex differences for our initial behavioural observations (Figure 2 - Figure supplement 1), c-Fos (Figure 2 - Figure supplement 2), for GFAP and Cx43 (Figure 3 - Figure supplement 1), calcium signalling (Figure 4 - Figure supplement 1), and for CalEx and dnCx43 experiments across behaviour (Figure 5 - Figure supplement 4) and c-Fos (Figure 5 - Figure supplement 5).

      (4) How long-lasting are the generalization phenotypes? Do they outlast the transient increase in blood corticosterone? Showing this would provide a more solid foundation for future explorations.

      The reviewers raise a very important point. It remains unclear as to how long these effects last and this is something we are keen to address in future studies, with careful experiments designed to explicitly test this question, as well as subsequent questions regarding whether long-lasting effects are due to impaired brain development or whether these effects emerge due to CORT changes, or other changes, or a combination of them all?

      As an aside, an additional manuscript from our lab (Depaauw-Holt et al. 2024 bioRxiv) which uses the same stressor but focuses on distinct brain regions and behaviours uses a prolonged time window in which the effects of stress are readily observable all the way to P90.

      So while we do provide the answers in this work, it is a really great idea that we would like to follow up subsequently.

      (5) With the ELS-induced change in locomotion, I would recommend presenting open field (center, periphery) and elevated plus maze (open, closed arms) data independently. It could also be interesting to analyze corner time in the open field as well as center time in the elevated plus maze.

      We now provide data for the open field and elevated plus maze as requested. Our findings remain unchanged, but we agree with the reviewer that this way of representing the data is more clear.

      (6) For Figure 2C, the ideal stats would be an ANOVA with CS (+/-) as a within-subject variable and treatment (naive/ELS) as a between-subjects variable. Then the best support for the generalization claim would be a CS x treatment interaction. I encourage the authors to do these stats. I note that this point is mitigated by the discrimination analysis presented in 2D (where they compare naive and ELS groups directly).

      We have carried out the analysis as requested and these data further support the notion of fear generalisation in ELS mice (Figure 2 - Figure supplement 2A, B). Additionally, the analyses are included in a supplementary table. We hope that we have understood correctly, and this figure accurately reflects the reviewer’s suggestion.

      (7) In Figure 2H, why not evaluate c-Fos levels after the discrimination test which is the main behavioral outcome? This statement in the Discussion should be modified if, as per my understanding, c-Fos was measured after the fear paradigm only "We find that both ELS and astrocyte dysfunction both enhance neuronal excitability, assessed by local c-Fos staining in the lateral amygdala following auditory discriminative fear conditioning. One interpretation of these data is that astrocytes might tune engram formation, with astrocyte dysfunction, genetically or after stress, increasing c-Fos expression resulting in a loss of specificity of the memory trace and generalisation of fear.'

      We agree that further evaluation of c-Fos levels following the discrimination test would be insightful. We honestly did not consider this time point in our initial experimental design, as we considered previous reports in the literature that investigated how the numbers of cells recruited to the engram (c-Fos density) could influence memory accuracy at a later time point. As such, investigating c-Fos levels following training was our initial target. We have modified the text to be more explicit in our experimental approach.

      This is nevertheless a fascinating point that we are keen to pursue in future studies.

      (8) Some thoughts on why dnCx43 suppression of astrocyte network activity is less effective at inducing fear generalization than CalEx suppression of astrocyte Ca2+ are warranted. One might predict that both manipulations should result in similar effects, as seen in fEPSP and cFos data in Figure 4.

      We agree that this is an interesting observation and the fact we did not observe the same behavioural phenotype despite fEPSP and c-Fos data to be the same is puzzling.

      Nevertheless, we do see increased fear generalisation in both dnCx43 and CalEx. We hypothesise that CalEx had a more profound effect due to the wide range of processes that are presumably affected by reduced astrocyte calcium activity, whereas blocking gap junction channels still leaves a large number of astrocyte functions intact.

      Overall, our conclusion is that behaviour is a more sensitive assay compared to the cellular phenotypes, which highlights the importance of answering these questions from multiple angles.

      (9) Ideally changes in functional coupling following the dnCx43 manipulation) should be shown here (line 169).

      We, unfortunately, did not directly evaluate functional coupling in dnCx43 mice in this manuscript. This would have been a useful experiment, but we rely on our previous data where we extensively characterised this tool (Murphy-Royal et al. 2020 Nat Comms).

      (10) It would be relevant to perform c-Fos staining with markers for astrocytes or neuronal cells. Is an increase in activity expected for both cell types?

      This is a fascinating question, given recent work on this topic showing that astrocytes can indeed express c-Fos and may be recruited into engrams. We analysed our existing tissue, we found that indeed astrocytes were labelled with c-Fos following our behavioural conditioning paradigm. Our data align with recent reports, and we demonstrate a small percentage of astrocytes expressing c-Fos (Figure 2 - figure supplement 3). This modest number of astrocytes expressing c-Fos is discussed in the text and placed into context of very recent papers that have been published since our submission to eLife.

      (11) Were the same mice subjected to behavior analysis than immunostaining?

      We generated separate cohorts of mice for immunostaining and behaviour, and have made this more clear in the text.

      (12) Language describing learning paradigm. The CS+ (line 73) isn't in itself aversive (and shouldn't be described as such). It acquires that value after pairing with the US (which is aversive).

      We agree that this is poorly worded and have modified the text from “aversive cue” to “conditioned cue”.

      (13) It is hard to appreciate the glucocorticoid receptor translocation with the images provided. Would it be possible to increase magnification or at least, provide small inserts at higher magnification?

      We have re-imaged our brain sections to get more detailed images. These are provided in revised manuscript (Figure 3)

      (14) For the viral injection experiment, for how long is the virus expressed before running behavior/recording/c-Fos staining? Is the age of the tested mice the same as Figures1-3 or they were injected at P45 and tested weeks later?

      We age-matched all mice for all experiments and tried to keep our experimental window as tight as possible (p45-70). All mice were injected at P25-30 in order to meet the experimental time window. To be more precise we have added timelines on all figures.

      (15) A validation of the virus is missing to confirm the reduction of Cx43 expression at mRNA and protein levels when compared to controls. A reference is provided but to my understanding age of the animals might be different.

      Here, I believe the reviewer is referring to dnCx43. In this experiment we used a viral approach to overexpress a non-functional connexin 43 protein (Murphy-Royal et al. 2020 Nat Comms). As such, a PCR or immuno against this protein would be expected to reveal higher expression levels. We have tried to clarify this approach in the text.

      It is true that we did not fully characterise this tool in the lateral amygdala which would have been useful but considering our extensive experience with this tool and in it’s development with our collaborators Baljit Khakh, Randy Stout, David Spray (see Murphy-Royal et al. 2020) we are confident in these data, despite the limitation of validation in this manuscript.

      (16) Same comment for the CalEx, a validation would be appreciated. Based on Yu et al. could a GCaMP6f virus be more appropriate as control?

      We agree this is an important experiment as our lab has not fully validated this tool in house (compared to dnCx43, which we previously validated).

      Importantly, we now have the capacity to do these experiments. Until very recently our two-photon microscope was not fully functional due to dodgy PMTs sent from the company we purchased our equipment from… Troubleshooting this issue took many months before we were convinced that we were not at fault and that the problem was the equipment.

      As such, mice were injected with both a membrane tethered GCaMP6f under the control of the short GFAP promoter - AAV2/5-gfaABC1D-lck-GCaMP6f and CalEx - AAV2/5-gfaABC1D-hPMCA2w/b-mCherry. Using this approach we were able to record calcium activity from CalEx positive and CalEx negative astrocytes in the same tissue (Figure 5 - figure supplement 2).

      We report that this approach does indeed reduce astrocyte calcium but does not entirely eliminate it. In fact, CalEx expressing astrocytes displayed similar calcium activity dynamics to that we observed following ELS. Together, this further strengthens our rationale to use CalEx in order to mimic the effects of stress on astrocytes, and determine downstream effects on excitability, synapses, and behaviour.

      (17) Have previous studies found ELS--> generalization phenotypes in adulthood? If so, these should be discussed in more detail. If not, perhaps this point can be made more explicit.

      This is a great point. After looking deeper into the literature in more depth we found an example of this in which ELS resulted in context fear generalisation in adult rats. This work is cited in the discussion in the context of our findings.

      (18) A paper by Krugers et al (Biol Psychiatry 2020) seems especially relevant (glucocorticoids, fear generalization, engram size) and should be discussed.

      Thank you for bringing this work to our attention. This is certainly important work that we had unfortunately overlooked. We have added a citation and discussed the manuscript Lesuis et al. Biol. Psychiatry 2021, which contains the data discussed in the conference proceeding by Krugers et al. Biol. Psychiatry 2020.

      Additionally, we added another great manuscript by Lesuis et al. recently published in Cell in which they investigated the cellular mechanisms by which acute stress results in fear generalisation via endocannabinoids.

      (19) Minor text revisions are necessary at lines 101 and 264 as well as p.5, line 58: "ratio" and p.10, line 128: "region of interest".

      Thank you for pointing out these typos and errors. We have corrected them.

      Editor's note:

      Should you choose to revise your manuscript, please include full statistical reporting including exact p-values wherever possible alongside the summary statistics (test statistic and df) and 95% confidence intervals. These should be reported for all key questions and not only when the p-value is less than 0.05 in the main manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      The modeling and experimental work described provide solid evidence that this model is capable of qualitatively predicting alterations to the swing and stance phase durations during locomotion at different speeds on intact or split-belt treadmills, but a revision of the figures to overlay the model predictions with the experimental data would facilitate the assessment of this qualitative agreement. This paper will interest neuroscientists studying vertebrate motor systems, including researchers investigating motor dysfunction after spinal cord injury.

      Figures showing the overlay of the experimental data with the modeling predictions have been included as figure supplements for Figures 5-7. This highlights how accurate the model predictions were.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation of our paper and emphasizing its strengths in the Summary.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Could the authors provide a statement in the methods or results to clarify whether there were any changes in synaptic weight or other model parameters of the intact model to ensure locomotor activity in the hemisected model?

      Such a statement has been inserted in Materials and Methods, section “Modeling”. Also, in the 1st paragraph of section “Spinal sensorimotor network architecture and operation after a lateral spinal hemisection”, we stated that no “additional changes or adjustments” were made.

      (2) The authors should remind the reader what the main differences are between state-machine, flexor-driven, and classical half-center regimes (lines 77-79).

      Short explanations/reminders have been inserted (see lines 80-83 of tracked changes document).

      (3) There may be changes in the wiring of spinal locomotor networks after the hemisection. Yet, without applying any sort of plasticity, the model is able to replicate many of the experimental data. Based on what was experimentally replicated or not, what does the model tell us about possible sites of plasticity after hemisection?

      Quantitative correspondence of changes in locomotor characteristics predicted by the model and those obtained experimentally provide additional validation of the model proposed in the preceding paper and used in this paper. This was our ultimate goal. None of the plastic changes during recovery were modeled because of a lack of precise information on these changes. The absence of possible plastic changes may explain the small discrepancies between our simulations and experimental data (see Supplemental Figures that have been added). However, the model only has a simplified description of spinal circuits without motoneurons and without real simulation of leg biomechanics. This limits our analysis or predictions of possible plastic changes within a reasonable degree of speculation. This issue is discussed in section: “Limitations and future directions” in the Discussion. We have also inserted a sentence: “The lack of possible plastic changes in spinal sensorimotor circuits of our model may explain the absence of exact/quantitative correspondences between simulated and experimental data.

      (4) Why are the durations on the right hemisected (fast) side similar to results in the full spinal transected model (Rybak et al. 2024)? Is it because the left is in slow mode and so there is not much drive from the left side to the right side even though the latter is still receiving supraspinal drive, as opposed to in the full transection model? (lines 202-203).

      This is correct. We have included this explanation in the text (lines 210-211 of tracked changes document).

      (5) There is an error with probability (line 280).

      This typo was corrected.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This is a nice article that presents interesting findings. One main concern is that I don't think the predictions from the simulation are overlaid on the animal data at any point - I understand the match is qualitative, which is fine, but even that is hard to judge without at least one figure overlaying some of the data.

      We thank the Reviewer for the constructive comments. Figures showing the overlay of the experimental data with the modeling predictions have been included as figure supplements for Figures 5-7. This highlights how accurate the model predictions were.

      Second is that it's not clear how the lateral coupling strengths of the model were trained/set, so it's hard to judge how important this hemi-split-belt paradigm is. The model's predictions match the data qualitatively, which is good; but does the comparison using the hemi-split-belt paradigm not offer any corrections to the model? The discussion points to modeling plasticity after SCI, which could be good, but does that mean the fit here is so good there's no point using the data to refine?

      The model has not been trained or retrained, but was used as it was described in the preceding paper. Response: Quantitative correspondence of changes in locomotor characteristics predicted by the model and those obtained experimentally provide additional validation of the model proposed in the preceding paper and used in this paper. This was our ultimate goal. None of the plastic changes during recovery were modeled because of a lack of precise information on these changes. The absence of possible plastic changes may explain the small discrepancies between our simulations and experimental data (see figure supplements that have been added). However, the model only has a simplified description of spinal circuits without motoneurons and without real simulation of leg biomechanics. This limits our analysis or predictions of possible plastic changes within a reasonable degree of speculation. This issue is discussed in section: “Limitations and future directions” in the Discussion.

      The manuscript is well-written and interesting. The putative neural circuit mechanisms that the model uncovers are great, if they can be tested in an animal somehow.

      We agree and we are considering how we can do this in an animal model.

      Page 2, lines 75-6: Perhaps it belongs in the other paper on the model, but it's surprising that in the section on how the model has been revised to have different regimes of operation as speed increases, there is no reference to a lot of past literature on this idea. Just one example would be Koditschek and Full, 1999 JEB Figure 3, where they talk about exactly this idea, or similarly Holmes et al., 2006 SIAM review Figure 7, but obviously many more have put this forward over the years (Daley and Beiwener, etc). It's neat in this model to have it tied down to a detailed neural model that can be compared with the vast cat literature, but the concept of this has been talked about for at least 25+ years. Maybe a review that discusses it should be cited?

      We have revised the Introduction to include the suggested references.

      Page 2, line 88: While it makes sense to think of the sides as supraspinal vs afferent driven, respectively, what is the added insight from having them coupled laterally in this hemisection model? What does that buy you beyond complete transection (both sides no supra) compared with intact?

      We are trying to make one model that could reproduce multiple experimental data in quadrupedal locomotion, including genetic manipulations with (silencing/removal) particular neuron types (and commissural interneurons), as pointed out in the section “Model Description” in the Results. These lateral connections are critical for reproducing and explaining other locomotor behaviors demonstrated experimentally. However, even in this study, these lateral interactions are necessary to maintain left-right coordination and equal left-right frequency (step period) during split-belt locomotion and after hemisection.

      I can see how being able to vary cycle frequencies separately of the two limbs is a good "knob" to vary when perturbing the system in order to refine the model. But there isn't a ton of context explaining how the hemi-section with split belt paradigm is important for refining the model, and therefore the science. Is it somehow importantly related to the new "regimes" of operation versus speed idea for the model?  

      We did not refine the model in this paper. We just used it for new simulations. The predictions strengthen the organization and operation of the model we recently proposed.

      Page 5, line 212: For the predictions from the model, a lot depends on how strong the lateral coupling of the model is, which, in turn, depends on the data the model was trained on. Were the model parameters (especially for lateral coupling of the limbs) trained on data in a context where limbs were pushed out of phase and neuronal connectivity was likely required to bring the limbs back into the same phase relationship? Because if the model had no need for lateral coupling, then it's not so surprising that the hemisected limbs behave like separate limbs, one with surpaspinal intact and one without.

      Please see our response above concerning the need for lateral interactions incorporated to the model.

      Page 8, line 360: The discussion of the mechanisms (increased influence of afferents, etc) that the model reveals could be causing the changes is exciting, though I'm not sure if there is an animal model where it can be tested in vivo in a moving animal.

      We agree it may be difficult to test right now but we are considering experimental approaches.

      Page 9, line 395: There are some interesting conclusions that rely on the hemi-split-belt paradigm here.

      We agree with this comment. Thanks.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Figures: Why aren't there any figures with the simulation results overlaid on the animal data?

      We followed this suggestion. Figures showing the overlay of the experimental data with the modeling predictions have been included as figure supplements.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      A nice study trying to identify the relationship between E. coli O157 from cattle and humans in Alberta, Canada.

      Strengths:

      (1) The combined human and animal sampling is a great foundation for this kind of study.

      (2) Phylogenetic analyses seem to have been carried out in a high-quality fashion.

      Weaknesses:

      I think there may be a problem with the selection of the isolates for the primary analysis. This is what I'm thinking:

      (1) Transmission analyses are strongly influenced by the sampling frame.

      (2) While the authors have randomly selected from their isolate collections, which is fine, the collections themselves are not random.

      (3) The animal isolates are likely to represent a broad swathe of diversity, because of the structured sampling of animal reservoirs undertaken (as I understand it).

      (4) The human isolates are all from clinical cases. Clinical cases of the disease are likely to be closely related to other clinical cases, because of outbreaks (either detected, or undetected), and the high ascertainment rate for serious infections.

      (5) Therefore, taking an equivalent number of animal and clinical isolates, will underestimate the total diversity in the clinical isolates because the sampling of the clinical isolates is less "independent" (in the statistical sense) than sampling from the animal isolates.

      (6) This could lead to over-estimating of transmission from cattle to humans.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s careful thoughts about our sampling strategy. We agree with points (1) and (2), and we have provided additional details on the animal collections as requested (lines 95-101).

      We agree with point (3) in theory but not in fact. As shown in Figure 3, the cattle isolates were very closely related, despite the temporal and geographic breadth of sampling within Alberta. The median SNP distance between cattle sequences was 45 (IQR 36-56), compared to 54 (IQR 43-229) SNPs between human sequences from cases in Alberta during the same years. Additionally, as shown in Figure 2, only clade A and B isolates – clades that diverge substantially from the rest of the tree – were dominated by human cases in Alberta. We have better highlight this evidence in the revision (lines 234-236 and 247-249).

      We agree with the reviewer in point (4) that outbreaks can be an important confounder of phylogenetic inference. This is why we down-sampled outbreaks (based on genetic relatedness, not external designation) in our extended analyses. We did not do this in the primary analysis, because there were no large clusters of identical isolates. Figure 3b shows a limited number of small clusters; however, clustered cattle isolates outnumbered clustered human isolates, suggesting that any bias would be in the opposite direction the reviewer suggests. In the revision, we down-sampled all analyses and, indeed, the proportion of human lineages descending from cattle lineages increased (lines 259-261). Regarding severe cases being oversampled among the clinical isolates, this is absolutely true and a limitation of all studies utilizing public health reporting data. We made this limitation to generalizability clearer in the discussion. However, as noted above, clinical isolates were more variable than cattle isolates, so it does not appear to have heavily biased the analysis (lines 490-495).

      We disagree with the reviewer on point (5). While the bias toward severe cases could make the human isolates less independent, the relative sampling proportions are likely to induce greater distance between clinical isolates than cattle isolates, which is exactly what we observe (see response to point (3) above). Cattle are E. coli O157:H7’s primary reservoir, and humans are incidental hosts not able to sustain infection chains long-term. Not only is the bacteria prevalent among cattle, cattle are also highly prevalent in Alberta. Thus, even with 89 sampling points, we are still capturing a small proportion of the E. coli O157:H7 in the province. Being able to sample only a small proportion of cattle’s E. coli O157:H7 increases the likelihood of only sampling from the center of the distribution, making extreme cases such as that shown at the very bottom of the tree in Figure 4, rare and important. In comparison, sampling from human cases constitutes a higher proportion of human infections relative to cattle, and is therefore more representative of the underlying distribution, including extremes. We added this point to the limitations (lines 495-504). As with the clustering above, if anything, this outcome would have biased the study away from identifying cattle as the primary reservoir. Additionally, the relatively small proportion of cattle sampled makes our finding that 15.7% of clinical isolates were within 5 SNPs of a cattle isolate, the distance most commonly used to indicate transmission for E. coli O157:H7, all the more remarkable.

      Because of the aforementioned points, we disagree with the reviewer’s conclusion in point (6). If a bias exists, we believe transmission from cattle-to-humans is likely underestimated for the reasons given above. Not only do all prior studies indicate ruminants as the primary reservoirs of E. coli O157:H7, and humans as only incidental hosts, our specific data do not support the reviewer’s individual contentions. The results of the sensitivity analysis the reviewer recommended is consistent with the points we outlined above, estimating that 94.3% of human lineages arose from cattle lineages (vs. 88.5% in the primary analysis). We have opted to retain the more conservative estimate of the primary analysis, which includes a more representative number of clinical cases.

      (7) We hypothesize that the large proportion of disease associated with local transmission systems is a principal cause of Alberta's high E. coli O157:H7 incidence" - this seems a bit tautological. There is a lot of O157 because there's a lot of transmission. What part of the fact it is local means that it is a principal cause of high incidence? It seems that they've observed a high rate of local transmission, but the reasons for this are not apparent, and hence the cause of Alberta's incidence is not apparent. Would a better conclusion not be that "X% of STEC in Alberta is the result of transmission of local variants"? And then, this poses a question for future epi studies of what the transmission pathway is.

      The reviewer is correct, and the suggestion for the direction of future studies was our intent with this statement. We have removed this sentence.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) To address my concerns about the different sampling frames in humans and animals, I would suggest a sensitivity analysis, using something like the following strategy. Make a phylogeny of all the available genome sequences from humans and cattle from Alberta. Phylogenetically sub-sample the tree, using something like Treemer (https://github.com/fmenardo/Treemmer), to remove phylogenetically redundant isolates from the same host type. Randomly select 100 human and 100 animal isolates from this non-redundant tree, and re-do your analysis.

      Although we originally down-sampled outbreaks for our analysis of the extended Alberta tree (2007-2019), we had not done this systematically for all analyses. We were not able to use the recommended Treemer tool, because we did not see a way to incorporate the timing of sequences. Because the objective of our study was to evaluate persistence, we did not want to exclude identical sequences that were separated in time and thus could be indicating persistence. To accomplish this, we developed a utility that allowed us to incorporate the temporality of sequences. Using this utility, we systematically down-sampled all sequences that met the following conditions: 1) within 0-2 SNPs of another sequence and 2) no gaps in sequence set >2 months. The second condition means that for any set of sequences within 0-2 SNPs of one another, there can be no more than 2 months without a sequence from the set. Similar sequences that occur beyond this 2-month-cutoff would be considered a separate set for down-sampling. This cutoff was chosen based on the epidemiology of E. coli O157 outbreaks, which are generally either point-source or continuous-source outbreaks. Intermittent outbreaks of a single strain are believed to arise from distinct contamination events and are exactly the type of phenomena we are seeking to identify. We have added details on down-sampling to the Methods (lines 178-180).

      After down-sampling, our primary analysis included 115 human and 84 cattle isolates. T conduct the recommended sensitivity analysis, we further randomly subsampled the human isolates, selecting 84 to match the number of cattle isolates. As we suggested in our initial response, and contrary to the reviewer’s concern, subsampling in this way accentuated the results, with 94.3% of human lineages inferred as arising from cattle lineages, compared to 88.5% in the primary analysis. This sensitivity analysis also identified 10 of the 11 LPLs identified in the primary analysis. The LPL not identified had 5 isolates in the primary analysis, the minimum for definition as an LPL, and was reduced to 4 isolates through subsampling. This sensitivity analysis is shown in Suppl. Figure S3.

      (2) This is the first time I've seen target diagrams used for SNP distances, I'm not sure of their value compared with histograms. They seem to emphasise the maximum distance, rather than the largest number of isolates. I.e. most isolates are closely related, but the diagram emphasises the small number of divergent ones.

      In using the target diagrams, we sought to emphasize the bimodal distribution of human-to-closest-cattle SNP differences. However, this is still mostly visible in a histogram, so we have replaced the target diagrams with a histogram as suggested (Figure 3).

      (3) L130 - fastqc doesn't trim adapters and read ends, there will be something else like trimmomatic which does.

      The reviewer is correct, and we appreciate them catching this error. Trimmomatic is incorporated into the Shovill pipeline, which was the assembler we used through the Bactopia pipeline. We have updated the Methods to indicate this (lines 142-144).

      (4) I find the flow of the article a bit confusing. You have your primary analysis, but Figure 2, which is a secondary analysis, comes before Figure 3. Which is the primary analysis? For me, primary analysis results should come first, or at least signpost a bit better.

      Figure 2 is not a secondary analysis. It is intended to provide an overview of the isolates used from the phylogenetic perspective, just as the diagram in Figure 1 provides an overview of the isolates by analysis. The secondary analyses are shown in Figures 5-7. We have added a sub-header, “Description of Isolates”, to the section referring to Figure 2, to clarify (line 232).

      (5) Locally persistent lineage definition. What is the rationale for the different criteria signifying locally persistent lineages? There is nothing in some of your criteria e.g. all isolates <30 SNPs from each other, which indicates that it is locally persistent - could have been transmitted to Japan (just to pick a place at random), causing a bunch of cases there, and then come back for all we know. Would that be a locally persistent lineage? Did you use the MCC tree here? That is a sub-sample of your full dataset, I am not sure what exactly you're trying to say with the LPLs, but maybe using a larger dataset would be better? Also, there are lots of STEC genomes available from e.g. UK and USA, by only including a fraction of these, you limit the strength of the inferences you can make about locally persistent lineages unless you know that they don't see the G sub-lineage that you observe.

      The reviewer raises multiple points here. First, regarding our definition of LPLs, it is intended to identify those lineages that pose a threat to populations in the specific geographic area (“local”) for at least 1 year (“persistent”) that are likely to be harbored in local reservoirs. Each of the criteria contributes to this definition.

      (1) A single lineage of the MCC tree with a most recent common ancestor (MRCA) with ≥95% posterior probability: This criterion provides confidence in the given isolates being part of a single, defined lineage. The posterior probability gives the probability that the topology of the tree is accurate, based on the data provided and the chosen model of evolution. In other words, we required at least 95% probability that the lineage was correct, and in practice the posterior probability of the lineages we defined as LPLs was 99.7-100% (we have added this detail to the text, lines 269-270). We also added a sensitivity analysis, shown in Suppl. Figure S4, which shows all sampled trees. We find that the essential structure of the tree around the LPLs we defined is well-supported.

      (2) All isolates ≤30 core SNPs from one another: This criterion limited LPLs to those lineages where the isolates were closely related. We did not want to limit LPLs to those that might define an outbreak, for example using a 5-10 SNP threshold, because the point of the study is to identify lineages that persistently cause disease over longer periods than a normal outbreak. Pathogens evolve over time in their reservoirs, leading to greater SNP distances, and we wanted to allow for this. The U.S. CDC has acknowledged a similar concern for such persistent lineages in its definition of REP strains, which it has defined based on ranges of 13-104 allele differences by cgMLST. Thus, our choice of 30 core SNPs as the threshold is in line with current practice in the emerging science on persistence of enteric pathogens. We have also added a sensitivity analysis examining alternate SNP thresholds, shown in Suppl. Figure S5, which results in clusters of LPLs identified in the primary analysis being grouped into larger lineages. Additionally, in the tree showing our primary analysis (Figure 4), we now note the minimum number of SNPs all isolates within the lineage differ by.

      (3) Contained at least 1 cattle isolate: This criterion increases confidence that the lineage is indeed “local”. Unlike humans, cattle are not known to be routinely infected by imported food products, and they do not make roundtrip journeys to other locations, as humans infected during travel do. Cattle themselves may be imported into Alberta while infected, and cattle in Alberta can be infected by other imported animals. In these cases, if the STEC strains the cattle harbor persist for ≥1 year, they become the type of lineages we are interested in as LPLs, regardless where they previously came from, because they are now potential persistent sources of infection in Alberta. By including at least one cattle isolate in each LPL, the only way an identified LPL is not actually local is if cattle are imported from the lineage’s reservoir community elsewhere (e.g., in Japan, as the reviewer suggested), the lineage is persisting in that non-Alberta reservoir, and newly infected cattle are imported repeatedly over 1 or more years. This could feasibly explain G(vi)-AB LPL 5 (Figure 4), which is entirely composed of cattle. Indeed, such an explanation would be consistent with the lack of new cases from this LPL after 2015 in the extended analysis (Figure 5). However, for all other LPLs, which contain both cattle and human isolates, for the LPL to not be local, both cattle and human cases would have to be imported from the same non-Alberta reservoir. While this is possible, the probability of such a scenario is low, and it decreases the more isolates are in an LPL. For the average LPL, this means 4 human and 6 cattle cases would need to be imported from a non-Alberta reservoir over several years. Given that our study is only a random sample of the total STEC cases and cattle in Alberta from 2007-2015, these numbers are underestimates of the true absolute number of cases and cattle associated with LPLs that would have to be explained by importation if the LPL were not local. We have added some explanation of the possibility of importation in the Discussion where we discuss the LPL criteria (lines 376-380).

      (4) Contained ≥5 isolates: In concert with criterion 3, this criterion guards against anomalies being counted as LPLs. By requiring at least 5 isolates in an LPL after down-sampling, at least 5 infection events must have occurred from the LPL, reducing the likelihood of importation explaining the LPL and emphasizing more significant LPLs.

      (5) The isolates were collected at sampling events (for cattle) or reported (for humans) over a period of at least 1 year: This criterion defines the persistence aspect of the LPL. In the primary analysis, the LPLs we identified persisted for an average of 8 years, with the shortest persisting for 5 years (these details have been added to the text, lines 268-269). Incorporating the extended analysis, several LPLs persisted for the full 13 years of the study.

      Regarding using additional non-Alberta isolates to help rule out importation, we have expanded the number of U.S. and global isolates included in the importation analysis, over-sampling clade G isolates from the U.S. (Figure 7). As cattle trade is substantially more common with the U.S. than other countries, we felt it most important to focus on the U.S. as a potential source of both imported cattle and human cases. Our results from this analysis show that only 9 of 494 (1.8%) U.S. isolates occurred in the LPLs we defined in the primary analysis, and all occurred after Alberta isolates (lines 313-317). Although we also added more global isolates, we still found that none were associated with the Alberta LPLs.

      (6) Given the importance of sampling for a study like this, some more information on animal sampling studies should be included here.

      We have added details on the cattle sampling to the Methods (lines 95-101).

      (7) L172 - do you mean an MRCA with >- 95% probability of location in Alberta?

      Location in Alberta was not determined from the primary analysis, which defined the LPLs, as only Alberta isolates were included in that analysis. As described above, this criterion meant that we required at least 95% probability that the tree topology at the lineage’s MRCA was correct, and in practice the posterior probability of the lineages we defined as LPLs was 99.7-100%.

      (8) Need a supplementary figure of just clade G from Figure 2.

      We have added a sub-tree diagram of clade G(vi) as Figure 2b.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      This study identified multiple locally evolving lineages transmitted between cattle and humans persistently associated with E. coli O157:H7 illnesses for up to 13 years. Furthermore, this study mentions a dramatic shift in the local persistent lineages toward strains with the more virulent stx2a-only profile. The authors hypothesized that this phenomenon is the large proportion of disease associated with local transmission systems is a principal cause of Alberta's high E. coli O157:H7 incidence. These opinions more effectively explain the role of the cattle reservoir in the dynamics of E. coli O157:H7 human infections.

      (1) The authors acknowledge the possibility of intermediate hosts or environmental reservoirs playing a role in transmission. Further discussion on the potential roles of other animal species commonly found in Alberta (e.g., sheep, goats, swine) could enhance the understanding of the transmission dynamics. Were isolates from these species available for analysis? If not, the authors should clearly state this limitation.”

      We have expanded the discussion of other species in Alberta, as suggested, including other livestock, wildlife, and the potential role of birds and flies (lines 353-360). Unfortunately, we did not have sequences available from other species, which we have added to the limitations (lines 487-490).

      (2) The focus on E. coli O157:H7 is understandable given its prominence in Alberta and the availability of historical data. However, a brief discussion on the potential applicability of the findings to non-O157 STEC serogroups, and the limitations therein, would be beneficial. Are there reasons to believe the transmission dynamics would be similar or different for other serogroups?

      We appreciate this comment and have expanded our discussion of relevance to non-O157 STEC (lines 452-460). Other authors have proposed that transmission dynamics differ, and studies of STEC risk factors, including our own, support this. However, there has been very little direct study of non-O157 transmission dynamics and there is even less cross-species genomic and metadata available for non-O157 isolates of concern.

      (3) The authors briefly mention the need for elucidating local transmission systems to inform management strategies. A more detailed discussion on specific public health interventions that could be targeted at the identified LPLs and their potential reservoirs would strengthen the paper's impact.

      We agree with the reviewer that this would be a good addition to the manuscript. The public health implications for control are several and extend to non-STEC reportable zoonotic enteric infections, such as Campylobacter and Salmonella. We have added a discussion of these (lines 460-465, 467-485).

      (4) Understanding the relationship between specific risk factors and E. coli O157:H7 infections is essential for developing effective prevention strategies. Have case-control or cohort studies been conducted to assess the correlation between identified risk factors and the incidence of E. coli O157:H7 infections? What methodologies were employed to control for potential confounders in these studies?

      Yes, there have been several case-control studies of reported cases. Many of these are referenced in the discussion in terms of the contribution of different sources to infection. As risk factors were not the focus of the current study, we believe a thorough discussion of the literature on the aspects of these various studies is beyond our scope. However, we have added some details on the risk factors themselves (lines 72-79).

      (5) The study's findings are noteworthy, particularly in the context of E. coli O157:H7 epidemiology. However, the extent to which these results can be replicated across different temporal and geographical settings remains an open question. It would be constructive for the authors to provide additional data that demonstrate the replication of their sampling and sequencing experiments under varied conditions. This would address concerns regarding the specificity of the observed patterns to the initial study's parameters.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment, as we are currently building on this analysis with an American dataset with different types of data available than were used in this study. Aligned with this work, we have added a comment on the adaptation of our method to other settings with different types of data (lines 448-450). We also added a sensitivity analysis to the manuscript simulating a different sampling approach (Suppl. Fig. S3), which should be informative to this question.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor comments.

      (1) Figure 1: The figure is a critical visual representation of the study's findings and should be given prominent emphasis. It is essential that the key discoveries of the research are clearly depicted and explained in this visual format. The authors should ensure that Figure 1 is detailed and informative enough to stand out as a central piece of the study.

      Figure 1 is the diagram of sample numbers, locations, and corresponding analyses. We assume that the reviewer means to refer to Figure 2. Although the inclusion of >1,200 isolates makes the tree difficult to see in detail, we have made some modifications to make the findings clearer. First, we changed the clade coloration such that the only subclade differentiated is G(vi). We have removed the stx metadata ring to focus attention on the location and species of the isolates, as stx data are described in Table 1. Finally, we have added a sub-tree diagram of clade G(vi), colored by location. This makes clear the large sections of the subclade dominated by isolates from one location or another, and the limited areas where they overlap.

      (2) Figures 2 and 4: While these figures contribute to the presentation of the data, they appear to be somewhat rudimentary in their current form. The lack of detailed annotations regarding the clustering of different strains is a notable omission. I recommend that the authors refine these figures to include comprehensive labeling that clearly delineates the various bacterial clusters. Enhanced graphical representation with clear annotations will aid readers in better understanding the study's findings.

      We appreciate this suggestion. We have remade all trees generated by the BEAST 2 analyses in R, rather than FigTree. This has allowed us to annotate the trees with additional information on the LPLs and we believe provides a clearer picture of each LPL.

      (3) Supplemental Table S1: The supplemental tables are an excellent opportunity to showcase additional data and findings that support the study's conclusions. For Supplemental Table S1, it is recommended that the authors highlight the innovative aspects or novel discoveries presented in this table.

      Suppl. Table S1 shows the modeling specifications and priors used in the analyses. These decisions were not in and of themselves novel. The innovation in our methods is due to the development of the LPLs based on the trees resulting from the analyses detailed in Suppl. Table S1, as well as from the application of these models to E. coli O157:H7 for the first time. However, we understand the reviewers point and have emphasized the importance of the results shown in Suppl. Table S2 (lines 391-395).

      (4) Line 35: "We assessed the role of persistent cross-species transmission systems in Alberta's E. coli O157:H7 epidemiology." change to "We assessed the impact of persistent cross-species transmission systems on the epidemiology of E. coli O157:H7 in Alberta."

      We have made this change.

      (5) To facilitate a deeper understanding of the core findings of the manuscript and to enable the development of effective response strategies, I suggest that the authors provide more information regarding the sequencing data used in the study. This information should at least include aspects such as data accessibility and quality control measures.

      We have included a Supplemental Data File that lists all isolates used in the analysis, and the QC measures are detailed in the Methods.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Can a plastic RNN serve as a basis function for learning to estimate value. In previous work this was shown to be the case, with a similar architecture to that proposed here. The learning rule in previous work was back-prop with an objective function that was the TD error function (delta) squared. Such a learning rule is non-local as the changes in weights within the RNN, and from inputs to the RNN depends on the weights from the RNN to the output, which estimates value. This is non-local, and in addition, these weights themselves change over learning. The main idea in this paper is to examine if replacing the values of these non-local changing weights, used for credit assignment, with random fixed weights can still produce similar results to those obtained with complete bp. This random feedback approach is motivated by a similar approach used for deep feed-forward neural networks.

      This work shows that this random feedback in credit assignment performs well but is not as well as the precise gradient-based approach. When more constraints due to biological plausibility are imposed performance degrades. These results are not surprising given previous results on random feedback. This work is incomplete because the delay times used were only a few time steps, and it is not clear how well random feedback would operate with longer delays. Additionally, the examples simulated with a single cue and a single reward are overly simplistic and the field should move beyond these exceptionally simple examples.

      Strengths:

      • The authors show that random feedback can approximate well a model trained with detailed credit assignment.

      • The authors simulate several experiments including some with probabilistic reward schedules and show results similar to those obtained with detailed credit assignments as well as in experiments.

      • The paper examines the impact of more biologically realistic learning rules and the results are still quite similar to the detailed back-prop model.

      Weaknesses:

      • The authors also show that an untrained RNN does not perform as well as the trained RNN. However, they never explain what they mean by an untrained RNN. It should be clearly explained. These results are actually surprising. An untrained RNN with enough units and sufficiently large variance of recurrent weights can have a high-dimensionality and generate a complete or nearly complete basis, though not orthonormal (e.g: Rajan&Abbott 2006). It should be possible to use such a basis to learn this simple classical conditioning paradigm. It would be useful to measure the dimensionality of network dynamics, in both trained and untrained RNN's.

      Thank you for pointing out the lack of explanation about untrained RNN. Untrained RNN in our simulations (except Fig. 6D/6E-gray-dotted) was randomly initialized RNN (i.e., connection weights were drawn from a pseudo normal distribution) that was used as initial RNN for training of value-RNNs. As you suggested, the performance of untrained RNN indeed improved as the number of units increased (Fig. 2J), and its highest part was almost comparable to the highest performance of trained value-RNNs (Fig. 2I). In the revision we will show the dimensionality of network dynamics (as you have suggested), and eigenvalue spectrum of the network.

      • The impact of the article is limited by using a network with discrete time-steps, and only a small number of time steps from stimulus to reward. What is the length of each time step? If it's on the order of the membrane time constant, then a few time steps are only tens of ms. In the classical conditioning experiments typical delays are of the order to hundreds of milliseconds to seconds. Authors should test if random feedback weights work as well for larger time spans. This can be done by simply using a much larger number of time steps.

      Thank you for pointing out this important issue, for which our explanation was lacking and our examination was insufficient. We do not consider that single time step in our models corresponds to the neuronal membrane time constant. Rather, for the following reasons, we assume that the time step corresponds to several hundreds of milliseconds:

      - We assume that single RNN unit corresponds to a small neuron population that intrinsically (for genetic/developmental reasons) share inputs/outputs and are mutually connected via excitatory collaterals.

      - Cortical activity is suggested to be sustained not only by fast synaptic transmission and spiking but also, even predominantly, by slower synaptic neurochemical dynamics (Mongillo et al., 2008, Science "Synaptic Theory of Working Memory" https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1150769).

      - In line with such theoretical suggestion, previous research examining excitatory interactions between pyramidal cells, to which one of us (the corresponding author Morita) contributed by conducting model fitting (Morishima, Morita, Kubota, Kawaguchi, 2011, J Neurosci, https://www.jneurosci.org/content/31/28/10380), showed that mean recovery time constant from facilitation for recurrent excitation among one of the two types of cortico-striatal pyramidal cells was around 500 milliseconds.

      If single time step corresponds to 500 milliseconds, three time steps from cue to reward in our simulations correspond to 1.5 sec, which matches the delay in the conditioning task used in Schultz et al. 1997 Science. Nevertheless, as you pointed out, it is necessary to examine whether our random feedback models can work for longer delays, and we will examine it in our revision.

      • In the section with more biologically constrained learning rules, while the output weights are restricted to only be positive (as well as the random feedback weights), the recurrent weights and weights from input to RNN are still bi-polar and can change signs during learning. Why is the constraint imposed only on the output weights? It seems reasonable that the whole setup will fail if the recurrent weights were only positive as in such a case most neurons will have very similar dynamics, and the network dimensionality would be very low. However, it is possible that only negative weights might work. It is unclear to me how to justify that bipolar weights that change sign are appropriate for the recurrent connections and inappropriate for the output connections. On the other hand, an RNN with excitatory and inhibitory neurons in which weight signs do not change could possibly work.

      Our explanation and examination about this issue were insufficient, and thank you for pointing it out and giving us helpful suggestion. In the Discussion (Line 507-510) of the original manuscript, we described "Regarding the connectivity, in our models, recurrent/feed-forward connections could take both positive and negative values. This could be justified because there are both excitatory and inhibitory connections in the cortex and the net connection sign between two units can be positive or negative depending on whether excitation or inhibition exceeds the other." However, we admit that the meaning of this description was not clear, and more explicit modeling will be necessary as you suggested.

      Therefore in our revision, we will examine models, in which inhibitory units (modeling fast-spiking (FS) GABAergic cells) will be incorporated, and neuron will follow Dale’s law.

      • Like most papers in the field this work assumes a world composed of a single cue. In the real world there many more cues than rewards, some cues are not associated with any rewards, and some are associated with other rewards or even punishments. In the simplest case, it would be useful to show that this network could actually work if there are additional distractor cues that appear at random either before the CS, or between the CS and US. There are good reasons to believe such distractor cues will be fatal for an untrained RNN, but might work with a trained RNN, either using BPPT or random feedback. Although this assumption is a common flaw in most work in the field, we should no longer ignore these slightly more realistic scenarios.

      Thank you very much for this insightful comment. In our revision, we will examine situations where there exist not only reward-associated cue but also randomly appeared distractor cues.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Tsurumi et al. show that recurrent neural networks can learn state and value representations in simple reinforcement learning tasks when trained with random feedback weights. The traditional method of learning for recurrent network in such tasks (backpropagation through time) requires feedback weights which are a transposed copy of the feed-forward weights, a biologically implausible assumption. This manuscript builds on previous work regarding "random feedback alignment" and "value-RNNs", and extends them to a reinforcement learning context. The authors also demonstrate that certain non-negative constraints can enforce a "loose alignment" of feedback weights. The author's results suggest that random feedback may be a powerful tool of learning in biological networks, even in reinforcement learning tasks.

      Strengths:

      The authors describe well the issues regarding biologically plausible learning in recurrent networks and in reinforcement learning tasks. They take care to propose networks which might be implemented in biological systems and compare their proposed learning rules to those already existing in literature. Further, they use small networks on relatively simple tasks, which allows for easier intuition into the learning dynamics.

      Weaknesses:

      The principles discovered by the authors in these smaller networks are not applied to deeper networks or more complicated tasks, so it remains unclear to what degree these methods can scale up, or can be used more generally.

      In our revision, we will examine more biologically realistic models with excitatory and inhibitory units, as well as more complicated tasks with distractor cues. We will also consider whether/how the depth of networks can be increased, though we do not currently have concrete idea on this last point. Thank you also for giving us the detailed insightful 'recommendations for authors'. We will address also them in our revision.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The paper studies learning rules in a simple sigmoidal recurrent neural network setting. The recurrent network has a single layer of 10 to 40 units. It is first confirmed that feedback alignment (FA) can learn a value function in this setting. Then so-called bio-plausible constraints are added: (1) when value weights (readout) is non-negative, (2) when the activity is non-negative (normal sigmoid rather than downscaled between -0.5 and 0.5), (3) when the feedback weights are non-negative, (4) when the learning rule is revised to be monotic: the weights are not downregulated. In the simple task considered all four biological features do not appear to impair totally the learning.

      Strengths:

      (1) The learning rules are implemented in a low-level fashion of the form: (pre-synaptic-activity) x (post-synaptic-activity) x feedback x RPE. Which is therefore interpretable in terms of measurable quantities in the wet-lab.

      (2) I find that non-negative FA (FA with non negative c and w) is the most valuable theoretical insight of this paper: I understand why the alignment between w and c is automatically better at initialization.

      (3) The task choice is relevant since it connects with experimental settings of reward conditioning with possible plasticity measurements.

      Weaknesses:

      (4) The task is rather easy, so it's not clear that it really captures the computational gap that exists with FA (gradient-like learning) and simpler learning rule like a delta rule: RPE x (pre-synpatic) x (post-synaptic). To control if the task is not too trivial, I suggest adding a control where the vector c is constant c_i=1.

      Thank you for this insightful comment. We have realized that this is actually an issue that would need multilateral considerations. A previous study of one of us (Wärnberg & Kumar, 2023 PNAS) assumed that DA represents a vector error rather than a scalar RPE, and thus homogeneous DA was considered as negative control because it cannot represent vector error other than the direction of (1, 1, .., 1). In contrast, the present work assumed that DA represents a scalar RPE, and then homogeneous DA (i.e., constant feedback) would not be said as a failure mode because it can actually represent a scalar RPE and FA to the direction of (1, 1, .., 1) should in fact occur. And this FA to (1, 1, ..., 1) may actually be interesting because it means that if heterogeneity of DA inputs is not large and the feedback is not far from (1, 1, ..., 1), states are learned to be represented in such a way that simple summation of cortical neuronal activity approximates value, thereby potentially explaining why value is often correlated with regional activation (fMRI BOLD signal) of not only striatal but also cortical regions (which I have been considering as an unresolved mystery). But on the other hand, the case with constant feedback is the same as the simple delta rule, as you pointed out, and then what could be obtained from the present analyses would be that FA is actually occurring behind the successful operation of such a simple rule. Anyway we will make further examinations and considerations on this issue.

      (5) Related to point 3), the main strength of this paper is to draw potential connection with experimental data. It would be good to highlight more concretely the prediction of the theory for experimental findings. (Ideally, what should be observed with non-negative FA that is not expected with FA or a delta rule (constant global feedback) ?).

      In response to this insightful comment, we considered concrete predictions of our models. In the FA model, the feedback vector c and the value-weight vector w are initially at random (on average orthogonal) relationships and become gradually aligned, whereas in the non-negative model, the vectors c and w are loosely aligned from the beginning. We considered how the vectors c and w can be experimentally measured. Each element of the feedback vector c is multiplied with TD-RPE, modulating the degree of update in each pyramidal cell (more accurately, pyramidal cell population that corresponds to single RNN unit). Thus each element of c could be measured as the magnitude of response of each pyramidal cell to DA stimulation. The element of the value-weight vector w corresponding to a given pyramidal cell could be measured, if striatal neuron that receives input from that pyramidal cell can be identified (although technically demanding), as the magnitude of response of the striatal neuron to activation of the pyramidal cell.

      Then, the abovementioned predictions can be tested by (i) identify cortical, striatal, and VTA regions that are connected by meso-cortico-limbic pathway and cortico-striatal-VTA pathway, (ii) identify pairs of cortical pyramidal cells and striatal neurons that are connected, (iii) measure the responses of identified pyramidal cells to DA stimulation, as well as the responses of identified striatal neurons to activation of the connected pyramidal cells, and (iv) test whether the DA->pyramidal responses and the pyramidal->striatal responses are associated across pyramidal cells, and whether such associations develop through learning. We will elaborate this tentative idea, and also other ideas, in our revision.

      (6a) Random feedback with RNN in RL have been studied in the past, so it is maybe worth giving some insights how the results and the analyzes compare to this previous line of work (for instance in this paper [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-17236-y]). For instance, I am not very surprised that FA also works for value prediction with TD error. It is also expected from the literature that the RL + RNN + FA setting would scale to tasks that are more complex than the conditioning problem proposed here, so is there a more specific take-home message about non-negative FA? or benefits from this simpler toy task?

      In reply to this suggestion, we will explore how our results compare to the previous studies including the paper [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-17236-y], and explore benefits of our models. At preset, we think of one possible direction. According to our results (Fig. 6E), under the non-negativity constraint, the model with random feedback and monotonic plasticity rule (bioVRNNrf) performed better, on average, than the model with backprop and non-monotonic plasticity rule (revVRNNbp) when the number of units was large, though the difference in the performance was not drastic. We will explore reasons for this, and examine if this also applies to cases with more realistic models, e.g., having separate excitatory and inhibitory units (as suggested by other reviewer).

      (6b) Related to task complexity, it is not clear to me if non-negative value and feedback weights would generally scale to harder tasks. If the task in so simple that a global RPE signal is sufficient to learn (see 4 and 5), then it could be good to extend the task to find a substantial gap between: global RPE, non-negative FA, FA, BP. For a well chosen task, I expect to see a performance gap between any pair of these four learning rules. In the context of the present paper, this would be particularly interesting to study the failure mode of non-negative FA and the cases where it does perform as well as FA.

      In reply to this comment and also other reviewer's comment, we will examine the performance of the different models in more complex tasks, e.g., having distractor cues or longer delays. We will also see whether or not the better performance of bioVRNNrf than revVRNNbp mentioned in the previous point applies to the different tasks.

      (7) I find that the writing could be improved, it mostly feels more technical and difficult than it should. Here are some recommendations:

      (7a) for instance the technical description of the task (CSC) is not fully described and requires background knowledge from other paper which is not desirable.

      (7b) Also the rationale for the added difficulty with the stochastic reward and new state is not well explained.

      (7c) In the technical description of the results I find that the text dives into descriptive comments of the figures but high-level take home messages would be helpful to guide the reader. I got a bit lost, although I feel that there is probably a lot of depth in these paragraphs.

      Thank you for your helpful suggestions. We will thoroughly revise our writings.

      (8) Related to the writing issue and 5), I wished that "bio-plausibility" was not the only reason to study positive feedback and value weights. Is it possible to develop a bit more specifically what and why this positivity is interesting? Is there an expected finding with non-negative FA both in the model capability? or maybe there is a simpler and crisp take-home message to communicate the experimental predictions to the community would be useful?

      We will make considerations on whether/how the non-negative constraints could have any benefits other than biological plausibility, in particular, in theoretical aspects or applications using neuro-morphic hardware, while we will also elaborate the links to biology and concretize the model's predictions.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity):

      This is an interesting manuscript where the authors systematically measure rG4 levels in brain samples at different ages of patients affected by AD. To the best of my knowledge this is the first time that BG4 staining is used in this context and the authors provide compelling evidence to show an association with BG4 staining and age or AD progression, which interestingly indicates that such RNA structure might play a role in regulating protein homeostasis as previously speculated. The methods used and the results reported seem robust and reproducible.

      In terms of the conclusions, however, I think that there are 2 main things that need addressing prior to publication:

      (1) Usually in BG4 staining experiments to ensure that the signal detected is genuinely due to rG4 an RNase treatment experiment is performed. This does not have to be extended to all the samples presented but having a couple of controls where the authors observe loss of staining upon RNase treatment will be key to ensure with confidence that rG4s are detected under the experimental conditions. This is particularly relevant for this brain tissue samples where BG4 staining has never been performed before.

      With what is now known about RNA rG4s and the recent reconciliation of the controversy on rG4 formation (Kharel, Nature Communications 2023), this experiment is no longer strictly required for demonstration of rG4 formation. Despite this change, we did attempt this experiment at the reviewer’s suggestion, but the controls were not successful, suggesting it may not be feasible with our fixing and staining conditions. That said, we agree that despite the G4 staining appearing primarily outside the nucleus, it would be helpful to have some direct indication of whether we were observing primarily RNA or DNA G4s, and so we performed an alternate experiment to determine this.

      In our previous submission, we had performed ribosomal RNA staining  (Figure S7), and the staining patterns were similar to that of BG4, especially the punctate pattern near the nuclei. Therefore, we directly asked whether the BG4 was largely binding to rRNA and have now shown the resulting co-stain in Figure 3b. These results show that at least a large amount of the BG4 staining does arise from rG4s in ribosomes. At high magnification, we observe that the BG4 stains a subset of the ribosomes, consistent with previous observations of high rG4 levels in ribosomes both in vitro and in cells (Mestre-Fos, 2019 J Mol Biol, Mestre-Fos 2019 PLoS One, Mestre-Fos 2020 J Biol Chem), but this had never been demonstrated in tissue. This experiment has therefore both answered the primary question of whether we are primarily observing rG4s, as well as provided more detailed information on the cellular sublocalization of rG4 formation, and provided the first evidence of rG4 formation on ribosomes in tissue.

      (2) The authors have an association between rG4-formation and age/disease progression. They also observe distribution dependency of this, which is great. However, this is still an association which does not allow the model to be supported. This is not something that can be fixed with an easy experiment and it is what it is, but my point is that the narrative of the manuscript should be more fair and reflect the fact that, although interesting, what the authors are observing is a simple correlation. They should still go ahead and propose a model for it, but they should be more balanced in the conclusion and do not imply that this evidence is sufficient to demonstrate the proposed model. It is absolutely fine to refer to the literature and comment on the fact that similar observations have been reported and this is in line with those, but still this is not an ultimate demonstration.

      We agree that these are correlative studies (of necessity when studying human tissue), but recent experiments have shown that rG4s affect the aggregation of Tau in vitro – and we have now better clarified this in the text itself. We have now also been more careful in drawing causative conclusions as shown in the revised text.

      Minor point:

      (3) rG4s themselves have been shown to generate aggregates in ALS models in the absence of any protein (Ragueso et al. Nat Commun 2023). I think this is also important in the light of my comment on the model, could well be that these rG4s are causing aggregates themselves that act as nucleation point for the proteins as reported in the paper I mentioned. Providing a broader and more unbiased view of the current literature on the topic would be fair, rather than focusing on reports more in line with the model proposed.

      We agree and have modified the discussion and added a broader context, including the Ragueso report described above.

      Reviewer #1 (Significance):

      This is a significant novel study, as per my comments above. I believe that such a study will be of impact in the G4 and neurodegenerative fields. Providing that the authors can address the criticisms above, I strongly believe that this manuscript would be of value to the scientific community. The main strength is the novelty of the study (never done before) the main weakness is the lack of the RNase control at the moment and the slightly over interpretation of the findings (see comments above).

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity):

      RNA guanine-rich G-quadruplexes (rG4s) are non-canonical higher order nucleic acid structures that can form under physiological conditions. Interestingly, cellular stress is positively correlated with rG4 induction.  In this study, the authors examined human hippocampal postmortem tissue for the formation ofrG4s in aging and Alzheimer Disease (AD). rG4 immunostaining strongly increased in the hippocampus with both age and with AD severity. 21 cases were used in this study (age range 30-92).  This immunostaining co-localized with hyper-phosphorylated tau immunostaining in neurons. The BG4 staining levels were also impacted by APOE status. rG4 structure was previously found to drive tau aggregation. Based on these observations, the authors propose a model of neurodegeneration in which chronic rG4 formation drives proteostasis collapse.

      This model is interesting, and would explain different observations (e.g., RNA is present in AD aggregates and rG4s can enhance protein oligomerization and tau aggregation).

      Main issue:

      There is indeed a positive correlation between Braak stage severity and BG4 staining, but this correlation is relatively weak and borderline significant ((R = 0.52, p value = 0.028). This is probably the main limitation of this study, which should be clearly acknowledged (together with a reminder that "correlation is not causality”.

      We believe that we had not explained this clearly enough in the text (based on the reviewer’s comment), as the correlation mentioned by the Reviewer was for the CA4 region only, and not the OML, which was substantially more correlated and statistically significant (Spearman R= 0.72, p = 0.00086). As a result, we believe this was a miscommunication that is rectified by the revised text:

      “In the OML, plotting BG4 percent area versus Braak stage demonstrated a strong correlation (Spearman R= 0.72) with highly significantly increased BG4 staining with higher Braak stages (p = 0.00086) (Fig. 2b).”

      Related to this, here is no clear justification to exclude the four individuals in Fig 1d (without them R increases to 0.78). Please remove this statement. On the other hand, the difference based on APOE status is more striking.

      We did not mean to imply that deleting these outliers was correct, but merely were demonstrating that they were in fact outliers. To avoid this misinterpretation, we have now deleted the sentence in the Figure 1d caption mentioning the outliers.

      Minor suggestions

      - "BG4 immunostaining was in many cases localized in the cytoplasm near the nucleus in a punctate pattern". Define "many"

      This is seen in nearly every cells and this is now altered in the text and is now identified as ribosomes containing rG4s using the rRNA antibody (Fig. 3b).

      - Specify that MABE917 corresponds to the specific single-chain version of the BG4 antibody

      Yes, this is correct, and this clarification has been added to the manuscript

      - Define PMI, Braak, CERAD (add a list of acronyms or insert these definitions in Fig 1b legend)

      These definitions have all been added when they first appear.

      - Fig 3: scale bar legend missing (50 micrometers?)

      This has been added, and the reviewer was correct that it was 50 micrometers.

      - Supplementary data Table 1: indicate target for all antibodies

      The target for each antibody has been added to supplementary Table 1.

      - Supplementary data Table 2: why give ages with different levels of precision? (e.g. 90.15 vs 63)

      We apologize for this oversight and have altered the ages to the same (whole years) in the figure.

      - Supplementary data Fig 1 X-axis legend: add "(nm)" after wavelength. Sequence can also be added in the legend. Why this one? Max/Min Wavelengths in the figure do not match indications in the experimental part. Not sure if that part is actually relevant for this study.

      The CD spectrum in Sup Fig 1 is the sequence that had previously been shown to aid in tau aggregation seeding, but had not been suspected by those authors to be a quadruplex. So we tested that here and showed it is a quadruplex, as described at the end of the introduction. We have added wording to the figure legend to clarify where its corresponding description in the main text can be found. We have also checked and corrected the wavelength and units.

      - Supplementary data Fig 7: Which ribosomal antibody was used?

      The details of this antibody have now been added to Supplementary Table 2 which lists all the antibodies used.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance):

      Provide a link between Alzheimer disease and RNA G-quadruplexes.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity):

      This study investigated the formation of RNA G quadruplexes (rG4) in aging and AD in human hippocampal postmortem tissue. The rG4 immunostaining in the hippocampus increases strongly with age and with the severity of AD. Furthermore, rG4 is present in neurons with an accumulation of phosphorylated tau immunostaining.

      Major comments

      (1) The method used in this study is primarily immunostaining of BG4, and the results cannot be considered correct without additional data from more multifaceted analyses (biochemical analysis, RNA expression analysis, etc.).

      We respectfully disagree with the Reviewer’s assessment of the value of these experiments. The most relevant biochemical experiments at the cellular and molecular level showing the role of G4s in aggregation in general and Tau in particular have been done and are referenced in the text. The results here stand on their own and are highly novel and significant, as evaluated by both of the other reviewers. There has been no previous work demonstrating the presence of rG4s in human brain – either in controls or in patients with AD. AD is a complex condition that only occurs spontaneously in the human brain and no other species; because of this complexity, novel aspects are best first studied in human brain tissue using the methods employed here.

      (2) Overall, the quality of the stained images is poor, and detailed quantitative analysis using further high quality data is essential to conclude the authors' conclusions.

      We have again looked at our images and they are not poor quality -they are confocal images taken at recommended resolution of the confocal microscope. It is possible the poor quality came from pdf compression by the manuscript submission portal, which is beyond our control as they were uploaded at high resolution. These data were quantified by scientists who were blinded to the diagnosis of each case. The level of description on the detailed quantification is higher than we have observed in similar studies. We therefore disagree with the reviewer’s conclusion.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance):

      Overall, this study is not a deeply analyzed study. In addition, the authors of this study need further understanding regarding G4.

      It is also unclear why the reviewer believes that we do not have sufficient understanding of G4s, and would request that the reviewer instead provides specific comments regarding what is lacking in terms of knowledge on G4s, as we respectfully disagree with this judgement of our knowledge-base (see other G4 papers from the Horowitz lab, Begeman, 2020, Litberg 2023, Son, 2023 referenced below).

      Litberg TJ, Sannapureddi RKR, Huang Z, Son A, Sathyamoorthy B, Horowitz S. Why are G-quadruplexes good at preventing protein aggregation? Jan;20(1):495-509. doi: 10.1080/15476286.2023.2228572. RNA Biol. (2023)

      Son A, Huizar Cabral V, Huang Z, Litberg TJ, Horowitz S. G-quadruplexes rescuing protein folding. May 16;120(20):e2216308120. doi: 10.1073/pnas.2216308120. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A (2023)

      Guzman BB, Son A, Litberg TJ, Huang Z, Dominguez , Horowitz S. Emerging Roles for G-Quadruplexes in Proteostasis FEBS J.doi: 10.1111/febs.16608. (2022)

      Begeman A, Son A, Litberg TJ, Wroblewski TH, Gehring T, Huizar Cabral V, Bourne J, Xuan Z, Horowitz S. G-Quadruplexes Act as Sequence Dependent Protein Chaperones. EMBO Reports Sep 18;e49735. doi: 10.15252/embr.201949735. (2020)

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The use of antalarmin, a selective CRF1 receptor antagonist, prevents the deficits in sociability in (acutely) morphine-treated males, but not in females. In addition, cell-attached experiments show a rescue to control levels of the morphine-induced increased firing in PVN neurons from morphine-treated males. Similar results are obtained in CRF receptor 1-/- male mice, confirming the involvement of CRF receptor 1-mediated signaling in both sociability deficits and neuronal firing changes in morphine-treated male mice.

      Strengths:

      The experiments and analyses appear to be performed to a high standard, and the manuscript is well written and the data clearly presented. The main finding, that CRF-receptor plays a role in sociability deficits occurring after acute morphine administration, is an important contribution to the field.

      Weaknesses:

      The link between the effect of pharmacological and genetic modulation of CRF 1 receptor on sociability and on PVN neuronal firing, is less well supported by the data presented. No evidence of causality is provided.

      Major points:

      (1) The results of behavioral tests and the neural substrate are purely correlative. To find causality would be important to selectively delete or re-express CRF1 receptor sequence in the VPN. Re-expressing the CRF1 receptor in the VPN of male mice and testing them for social behavior and for neuronal firing would be the easier step in this direction.

      We agree with this comment and have acknowledged that further studies, such as genetic or pharmacological inactivation of CRF<sub>1</sub> receptors selectively in the paraventricular nucleus of the hypothalamus (PVN), are warranted to address this issue (page 17, line 25 to page 18, line 1).

      We would also like to mention that our manuscript title intentionally presented our findings separately without implying causality. Our idea was simply to pair the behavioral data to neural activity within a network of interest, i.e., the PVN CRF-oxytocin (OXY)/arginine-vasopressin (AVP) network, which is thought to play a critical role at the interface of substance use disorders and social behavior. Accordingly, we previously reported that genetic CRF<sub>2</sub> receptor deficiency reliably eliminated sociability deficits and hypothalamic OXY and AVP expression induced by cocaine withdrawal (Morisot et al., 2018). Thus, the present manuscript reliably shows that CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor-mediated effects of acute morphine administration upon social behavior are consistently mirrored by neural activity changes within the PVN, and particularly within its OXY<sup>+</sup>/AVP<sup>+</sup> neuronal populations. In addition, we demonstrate that the latter effects are sex-linked, which is in line with previous reports of sex-biased CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor roles in rodents (Rosinger et al., 2019; Valentino et al., 2013) and humans (Roy et al., 2018; Weber et al., 2016).

      (2) It would be interesting to discuss the relationship between morphine dose and CRF1 receptor expression.

      We are not aware of studies reporting CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor expression following acute morphine administration. However, repeated heroin self-administration was shown to increase CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor expression in the ventral tegmental area (VTA). We have mentioned the latter study in the present revised version of our manuscript at page 18, lines 1-2.

      (3) It would be important to show the expression levels of CRF1 receptors in PVN neurons in controls and morphine-treated mice, both males and females.

      We agree with this reviewer comment and, in the present version of the manuscript, have mentioned that examination of CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor expression in the PVN might help to understand the brain mechanisms underlying morphine effects upon social behavior (page 18, lines 2-6). Moreover, at page 15, lines 11-19 we have mentioned studies showing higher levels of the CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor in the PVN of adult (2 months) and old (20-24 months) male mice, as compared to adult and old female mice (Rosinger et al., 2019). Thus, differences in PVN CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor expression between male and female mice might underlie the sex-linked effects of CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor antagonism by antalarmin reported in our manuscript.

      (4) It would be important to discuss the mechanisms by which CRF1 receptor controls the firing frequency of APV+/OXY+ neurons in the VPN of male mice.

      Using the in situ hybridization technique, studies reported relatively low expression of the CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor in the PVN (Van Pett et al., 2000). However, more recent studies using genetic approaches identified a substantial population of CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor-expressing neurons within the PVN (Jiang et al., 2019, 2018). These CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor-expressing neurons are believed to respond to local CRF release and likely form bidirectional connections with both CRF and OXY+/AVP+ neurons (Jiang et al., 2019, 2018). Thus, one proposed mechanism of action is that morphine increases intra-PVN release of CRF, which may act on intra-PVN CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor-expressing neurons. The latter neurons might in turn influence the activity of PVN OXY+/AVP+ neurons, which largely project to the VTA and the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BNST) to modulate social behavior. Within this framework, pharmacological or genetic inactivation of CRF<sub>1</sub> receptors might deregulate the activity of intra-PVN CRF-OXY/AVP interactions and thus interfere with opiate-induced social behavior deficits. In particular, the latter phenomenon might be more pronounced in male mice since they express more CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor-positive neurons in the PVN, as compared to female mice (Rosinger et al., 2019). The putative mechanisms of action described herein are also mentioned at page 16, lines 12 to page 17, line 7 of the present revised version of the manuscript.

      Minor points:

      (1) The phase of the estrous cycles in which females are analyzed for both behavior and electrophysiology should be stated.

      The normal estrous cycle of laboratory mice is 4-5 days in length, and it is divided into four phases (proestrus, estrus, metestrus and diestrus). The three-chamber experiments were generally carried out over a 5-day period, thus spanning across the entire estrous cycle. In particular, on each test day approximately the same number of mice was assigned to each experimental group. Thus, within each group the number of female mice tested on each phase of the estrous cycle was likely similar. Moreover, except for firing frequency displayed by vehicle/morphine-treated mice, female and male mice showed similar results variability, indicating a marginal role for the estrous cycle in the spread of data. We would also like to mention relatively recent studies indicating no significant difference over different phases of the estrous cycle in the social interaction test as well as in anxiety-like and anhedonia-like behavioral tests in C57BL/6J female mice (Zhao et al., 2021). Accordingly, similar findings were also reported by other authors who found no difference across the diestrus and estrus phases of the estrous cycle in C57BL/6J female mice tested in behavioral assays of anxiety-like, depression-like and social interaction (Zeng et al., 2023).

      A paragraph has been added to page 20, lines 1-9 of the present version of the manuscript to explain why we did not monitor the estrous cycle in female mice.

      (2) It would be important to show the statistical analysis between sexes.

      Following this reviewer comment, we examined the sociability ratio results by a three-way ANOVA with sex (males vs. females), pretreatment (vehicle vs. antalarmin) and treatment (saline vs. morphine) as between-subjects factors. The latter analysis revealed an almost significant sex X pretreatment X treatment interaction effect (F<sub>1,53</sub>=3.287, P=0.075), which could not allow for post-hoc individual group comparisons. Nevertheless, Newman-Keuls post-hoc comparisons revealed that male mice treated with antalarmin/morphine showed higher sociability ratio than female mice treated with antalarmin/morphine (P<0.05). The latter statistical results have been added to the present revised version of the manuscript at page 7, lines 2-8.

      We also examined neuronal firing frequency by a three-way ANOVA with sex (males vs. females), pretreatment (vehicle vs. antalarmin) and treatment (saline vs. morphine) as between-subjects factors. Analysis of firing frequency of all of the recorded cells in C57BL/6J mice revealed a sex X pretreatment X treatment interaction effect (F<sub>1,195</sub>=4.765, P<0.05). Newman-Keuls post-hoc individual group comparisons revealed that male mice treated with vehicle/morphine showed higher firing frequency than all other male and female groups (P<0.0005). Moreover, male mice treated with antalarmin/morphine showed lower firing frequency than male mice treated with vehicle/morphine (P<0.0005). In net contrast, female mice treated with antalarmin/morphine did not differ from female mice treated with vehicle/morphine (P=0.914). The latter statistical results have been added to the present revised version of the manuscript at page 8, lines 4-12. Finally, similar results were obtained following the three-way ANOVA (sex X pretreatment X treatment) of firing frequency recorded in the subset of neurons co-expressing OXY and AVP (data not shown).

      Thus, sex-linked responses to morphine were detected also by three-way ANOVAs including sex as a variable. However, in the revised version of the manuscript we did not include novel figures combining the two sexes because it would have been largely redundant with the figures already reported, especially with Fig. 1D, Fig. 1G, Fig. 2B and Fig. 2D.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This manuscript reports a series of studies that sought to identify a biological basis for morphine-induced social deficits. This goal has important translational implications and is, at present, incompletely understood in the field. The extant literature points to changes in periventricular CRF and oxytocin neurons as critical substrates for morphine to alter social behavior. The experiments utilize mice, administered morphine prior to a sociability assay. Both male and female mice show reduced sociability in this procedure. Pretreatment with the CRF1 receptor antagonist, antalarmin, clearly abolished the morphine effect in males, and the data are compelling. Consistently, CRF1-/- male mice appeared to be spared of the effect of morphine (while wild-type and het mice had reduced sociability). The same experiment was reported as non-feasible in females due to the effect of dose on exploratory behavior per se. Seeking a neural correlate of the behavioral pharmacology, acute cell-attached recordings of PVN neurons were made in acute slices from mice pretreated with morphine or anatalarmin. Morphine increased firing frequencies, and both antalarmin and CRF1-/- mice were spared of this effect. Increasing confidence that this is a CRF1 mediated effect, there is a gene deletion dose effect where het's had an intermediate response to morphine. In general, these experiments are well-designed and sufficiently powered to support the authors' inferences. A final experiment repeated the cell-attached recordings with later immunohistochemical verification of the recorded cells as oxytocin or vasopressin positive. Here the data are more nuanced. The majority of sampled cells were positive for both oxytocin and vasopressin, in cells obtained from males, morphine pretreatment increased firing in this population and was CRF1 dependent, however in females the effect of morphine was more modest without sensitivity to CRF1. Given that only ~8 cells were only immunoreactive for oxytocin, it may be premature to attribute the changes in behavior and physiology strictly to oxytocinergic neurons.

      In sum, the data provide convincing behavioral pharmacological evidence and a regional (and possibly cellular) correlation of these effects suggesting that morphine leads to sociality deficits via CRF interacting with oxytocin in the hypothalamus. While this hypothesis remains plausible, the current data do not go so far as directly testing this mechanism in a site or cell-specific way.

      We agree with this reviewer’s comment and acknowledge that further studies are needed to better understand the neural substrates of CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor-mediated sociability deficits induced by morphine. This has been mentioned at page 17, line 25 to page 18, line 6 of the present revised version of the manuscript.

      With regard to the presentation of these data and their interpretation, the manuscript does not sufficiently draw a clear link between mu-opioid receptors, their action on CRF neurons of the PVN, and the synaptic connectivity to oxytocin neurons. Importantly, sex, cell, and site-specific variations in the CRF are well established (see Valentino & Bangasser) yet these are not reviewed nor are hypotheses regarding sex differences articulated at the outset. The manuscript would have more impact on the field if the implications of the sex-specific effects evident here were incorporated into a larger literature.

      At page 15, line 19 to page 16, line 2 of the present version of the manuscript, we have mentioned prior studies reporting differences in CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor signaling or cellular compartmentalization between male and female rodents (Bangasser et al., 2013, 2010). However, the latter studies were conducted in cortical or locus coeruleus brain tissues. Thus, more studies are needed to examine CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor signaling or cellular compartmentalization in the PVN and their relationship to the sex-linked results reported in our manuscript.

      With regards to the model proposed in the discussion, it seems that there is an assumption that ip morphine or antalarmin have specific effects on the PVN and that these mediate behavior - but this is impossible to assume and there are many meaningful alternatives (for example, both MOR and CRF modulation of the raphe or accumbens are worth exploration).

      We focused our discussion on PVN OXY/AVP systems because ourelectrophysiology studies examined neurons expressing OXY and/or AVP in this brain area. However, we understand that other brain areas/systems might mediate the effect of systemic administration of the CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor antagonist antalarmin or whole-body genetic disruption of the CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor upon morphine-induced social behavior deficits. For this reason, at page 16, line 12 to page 17, line 7 of the present version of the manuscript we have mentioned the possible involvement of BNST OXY or VTA dopamine systems in the CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor-mediated social behavior effects of morphine reported herein. Indeed, literature suggests important CRF-OXY and CRF-dopamine interactions in the BNST and the VTA, which might be relevant to the expression of social behavior. Nevertheless, to date the implication of the latter brain systems interactions in social behavior alterations induced by substances of abuse remains to be elucidated.

      While it is up to the authors to conduct additional studies, a demonstration that the physiology findings are in fact specific to the PVN would greatly increase confidence that the pharmacology is localized here. Similarly, direct infusion of antalarmin to the PVN, or cell-specific manipulation of OT neurons (OT-cre mice with inhibitory dreadds) combined with morphine pre-exposure would really tie the correlative data together for a strong mechanistic interpretation.

      We agree with this reviewer’s comment that the suggested experiments would greatly increase the understanding of the brain mechanisms underlying the social behavior deficits induced by opiate substances. We have acknowledged this at page 17, line 25 to page 18, line 6.

      Because the work is framed as informing a clinical problem, the discussion might have increased impact if the authors describe how the acute effects of CRF1 antagonists and morphine might change as a result of repeated use or withdrawal.

      Prior studies reported behavioral and neuroendocrine (hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal axis) effects of chronic systemic administration of CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor antagonists, such as R121919 and antalarmin (Ayala et al., 2004; Dong et al., 2018). However, to our knowledge, no studies have directly compared the behavioral effects of acute vs. repeated administration of CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor antagonists. We previously reported that acute administration of antalarmin increased the expression of somatic opiate withdrawal in mice, indicating that this compound is effective following withdrawal from repeated morphine administration (Papaleo et al., 2007). Nevertheless, further studies are needed to specifically address this reviewer’s comment.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In the current manuscript, Piccin et al. identify a role for CRF type 1 receptors in morphine-induced social deficits using a 3-chamber social interaction task in mice. They demonstrate that pre-treatment with a CRFR1 antagonist blocks morphine-induced social deficits in male, but not female, mice, and this is associated with the CRF R1 antagonist blocking morphine-induced increases in PVN neuronal excitability in male but not female mice. They followed up by using a transgenic mouse CRFR1 knockout mouse line. CRFR1 genetic deletion also blocked morphine-induced social deficits, similar to the pharmacological approach, in male mice. This was also associated with morphine-induced increases in PVN neuronal excitability being blocked in CRFR1 knockout mice. Interestingly they found that the pharmacological antagonism of the CRFR1 specifically blocked morphine-induced increases in oxytocin/AVP neurons in the PVN in male mice.

      Strengths:

      The authors used both male and female mice where possible and the studies were fairly well controlled. The authors provided sufficient methodological detail and detailed statistical information. They also examined measures of locomotion in all of the behavioral tasks to separate changes in sociability from overall changes in locomotion. The experiments were well thought out and well controlled. The use of both the pharmacological and genetic approaches provides converging lines of evidence for the role of CRFR1 in morphine-induced social deficits. Additionally, they have identified the PVN as a potential site of action for these CRFR1 effects.

      Weaknesses:

      While the authors included both sexes they analyzed them independently. This was done for simplicity's sake as they have multiple measures but there are several measures where the number of factors is reduced and the inclusion of sex as a factor would be possible.

      Please, see above our response to the same comment made by Reviewer 1.

      Additionally, single doses of both the CRFR1 antagonist and morphine are used within an experiment without justification for the doses. In fact, a lower dose of morphine was needed for the genetic CRFR1 mouse line. This would suggest that the dose of morphine being used is likely causing some aversion that may be more present in the females, as they have lower overall time in the ROI areas of both the object and the mouse following morphine exposure.

      The morphine dose was chosen based on our prior study showing that morphine (2.5 mg/kg) impaired sociability in male and female C57BL/6J mice, without affecting locomotor activity (Piccin et al., 2022). Also, the antalarmin dose (20 mg/kg) and the route of administration (per os) was chosen based on our prior studies demonstrating behavioral effects of this CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor antagonist administered per os (Contarino et al., 2017; Ingallinesi et al., 2012; Piccin and Contarino, 2020). This is now mentioned in the “materials and methods” section of the present revised version of the manuscript at page 23, lines 6-13. We also agree with this reviewer that female mice seemed more sensitive to morphine than male mice. Indeed, during the habituation phase of the three-chamber test female mice treated with morphine (2.5 mg/kg) spent less time in the ROIs containing the empty wire cages, as compared to saline-treated female mice (Fig. 1E). However, morphine did not affect locomotor activity in female mice (Fig. S1B), suggesting independency between social approach and ambulation.

      As for the discussion, the authors do not sufficiently address why CRFR1 has an effect in males but not females and what might be driving that difference, or why male and female mice have different distribution of PVN cell types during the recordings.

      At page 15, line 11 to page 16, line 2, we have mentioned possible mechanisms that might underlie the sex-linked results reported in our manuscript. Moreover, at page 16, lines 6-9 we have mentioned a seminal review reporting sex-linked expression of PVN OXY and AVP in a variety of animal species that is similar to the present results. Nevertheless, as mentioned in the “discussion” section, further studies are needed to elucidate the neural substrates underlying sex-linked effects of opiate substances upon social behavior.

      Additionally, the authors attribute their effect to CRF and CRFR1 within the PVN but do not consider the role of extrahypothalamic CRF and CRFR1. While the PVN does contain the largest density of CRF neurons there are other CRF neurons, notably in the central amygdala and BNST, that have been shown to play important roles in the impact of stress on drug-related behavior. This also holds true for the expression of CRFR1 in other regions of the brain, including the VTA, which is important for drug-related behavior and social behavior. The treatments used in the current manuscript were systemic or brain-wide deletion of CRFR1. Therefore, the authors should consider that the effects could be outside the PVN.

      Even if they suggest a role for PVN CRF<sub>1</sub>-OXY circuits, we are aware that the present data do not support a direct link between behavior and PVN CRF<sub>1</sub> receptors. Thus, at page 16, line 12 to page 17, line 7 of the present version of the manuscript we have mentioned some studies showing a role for PVN OXY, BNST OXY or VTA dopamine systems in social behavior. Interestingly, the latter brain systems are thought to interact with the CRF system. However, more studies are warranted to understand the implication of CRF-OXY or CRF-dopamine interactions in social behavior deficits induced by substances of abuse.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I commend the authors on crafting a well-written and clear manuscript with excellent figures. Furthermore, the data analysis and rigor are quite high. I have a few suggestions in the order they appear in the manuscript:

      The introduction has a number of abrupt transitions. For example, the sentence beginning with "Besides," in paragraph 2 jumps from CRF to oxytocin and vasopressin without a transition or justification. In all, vasopressin may be better removed from the introduction. There is sufficient evidence in the literature to support the CRF-OT circuit that might mediate behavioral pharmacology and this should be clearly described in the introduction.

      We have added a sentence at page 3, lines 22-23 to introduce possible interactions of the CRF system with other brain systems implicated in social behavior. Also, in the “introduction” section both OXY and AVP systems are mentioned because our electrophysiology studies examined the effect of morphine upon the activity of OXY- and AVP-positive neurons.

      Our interest in the PVN CRF-OXY/AVP network also stems from previous findings from our laboratory showing that genetic inactivation of the CRF<sub>2</sub> receptor eliminated both sociability deficits and increased hypothalamic OXY and AVP expression associated with long-term cocaine withdrawal in male mice (Morisot et al., 2018). Moreover, evidence suggests the implication of AVP systems in opiate effects. In particular, pharmacological antagonism of AVP-V1b receptors decreased the acquisition of morphine-induced conditioned place preference in male C57BL/6N mice housed with morphine-treated mice (Bates et al., 2018).

      Throughout the manuscript, it seems that there is an assumption that ip morphine or antalarmin have specific effects on the PVN and that these mediate behavior - this is impossible to assume and there are many meaningful alternatives (for example, both MOR and CRF modulation of the raphe or accumbens are worth exploration). While it is up to the authors to conduct additional studies, a demonstration that the physiology findings are in fact specific to the PVN would greatly increase confidence that the pharmacology is localized here. Similarly, direct infusion of antalarmin to the PVN, or cell-specific manipulation of OT neurons (OT-cre mice with inhibitory dreadds) combined with morphine pre-exposure would really tie the correlative data together for a strong mechanistic interpretation.

      We agree that the suggested experiments would greatly increase the understanding of the brain mechanisms underlying the social behavior deficits induced by opiate substances. This has been acknowledged at page 17, line 25 to page 18, line 6 of the present version of the manuscript.

      Also in the introduction, the reference to shank3b mice is not the most direct evidence of oxytocin involvement in sociability. It may be helpful to point reviewers to studies with direct manipulation of these populations (Grinevich group, for example).

      At page 4, lines 4-6 of the “introduction” section, we have added a sentence to mention a seminal paper by the Grinevich group demonstrating an important role for OXY-expressing PVN parvocellular neurons in social behavior (Tang et al., 2020). Moreover, at page 4, lines 8-10 we have mentioned a recent study showing that targeted chemogenetic silencing of PVN OXY neurons in male rats impaired short- and long-term social recognition memory (Thirtamara Rajamani et al., 2024).

      It would be helpful in the figures to indicate which panels contain male or female data.

      The sex of the mice is mentioned above each panel of the main and supplemental figures, except for the studies with CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor-deficient mice wherein only experiments carried out with male mice were illustrated. In the latter case, the sex (male) of the mice is mentioned in the related legend.

      The discussion itself departs from the central data in a few ways - the passages suggesting that morphine produces a stress response and that CRF1 antagonists would block the stress state are highly speculative (although testable). The manuscript would have more impact if the sex-specific effects and alternative hypotheses were enhanced in the discussion.

      At page 16, line 12 to page 17, line 7 of the “discussion” section, we have suggested that interaction of the CRF system with other brain systems implicated in social behavior (i.e., OXY, dopamine) might underlie the sex-linked CR<sub>1</sub> receptor-mediated effects of morphine reported in our manuscript. Also, at page 15, line 19 to page 16, line 2 we have mentioned studies showing sex-linked CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor signaling and cellular compartmentalization that might be relevant to the present findings. Finally, to further support the notion of morphine-induced PVN CRF activity, at page 15, lines 4-6 we have mentioned a study suggesting that activation of presynaptic mu-opioid receptors located on PVN GABA terminals might reduce GABA release (and related inhibitory effects) onto PVN CRF neurons (Wamsteeker Cusulin et al., 2013). Nevertheless, we believe that more work is needed to better understand the role for the CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor in opiate-induced stress responses and activity of OXY and dopamine systems implicated in social behavior.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) You should provide justification for the doses selected for treatments and the route of administration for the CRFR1 antagonist, especially for females.

      This has been added at page 23, lines 6-13 of the present version of the manuscript. In particular, the doses and routes of administration for morphine and antalarmin used in the present study were chosen based on previous work from our laboratory. Indeed, the intraperitoneal administration of morphine (2.5 mg/kg) impaired social behavior in male and female mice, without affecting locomotor activity (Piccin et al., 2022). Moreover, the oral route of administration for antalarmin was chosen for its translational relevance, as it could be easily employed in clinical trials assessing the therapeutic value of pharmacological CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor antagonists.

      (2) For the electrophysiology data you should include the number of cells per animal that were obtained. It appears that fewer cells from more females were obtained than in males and so the distribution of individual animals to the overall variance may be different between males and females.

      The number of cells examined and animals used in the electrophysiology experiments are reported above each panel of the related Figures 2, 3 and 4 as well as in the supplementary tables S1B and S1C. Overall, the number of cells examined in male and female mice was quite similar. Also, the number of male and female mice used was comparable. Standard errors of the mean (SEM) were quite similar across the different male and female groups (Fig. 2B and 2D), except for vehicle/morphine-treated male mice. Indeed, in the latter group a considerable number of cells displayed elevated firing responses to morphine, which accounted for the higher spread of the data. Accordingly, as mentioned above, the three-way ANOVA with sex (males vs. females), pretreatment (vehicle vs. antalarmin) and treatment (saline vs. morphine) as between-subjects factors revealed that male mice treated with vehicle/morphine showed higher firing frequency than all other male and female groups (P<0.0005). Finally, a similar pattern of firing frequency was observed also in neurons co-expressing OXY and AVP, wherein vehicle/morphine-treated male mice displayed higher SEM, as compared to all other male and female groups (Fig. 4C and 4F). Thus, except for vehicle/morphine-treated mice, distribution of the firing frequency data did not seem to be linked to the sex of the animal.

      (3) You should consider using a nested analysis for the slice electrophysiology data as that is more appropriate.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. However, after careful consideration, we have decided to keep the current statistical analyses. In particular, given the relatively low variability of our data, we believe that the use of parametric ANOVA tests is appropriate. Moreover, additional details supporting our choice are provided just above in our response to the comment #2.

      (4) While it makes sense to not want to directly compare male and female data that results in needing to run a 4-way ANOVA, there are many measures, such as sociability, firing rate, etc., that if including sex as a factor would result in running a 3-way ANOVA and would allow for direct comparison of male and female mice.

      Please, see above our response to the same comment made by Reviewer 1. Notably, the results of our new statistical analyses including sex as a variable further support sex-linked effects of the CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor antagonist antalarmin upon morphine-induced sociability deficits and PVN neuronal firing. Nevertheless, we would like to keep the figures illustrating our findings as they are since it easily allows detecting the observed sex-linked results. Finally, we hope that this reviewer agrees with our choice, which is consistent with the wording of the title (i.e., “in male mice”).

      (5) There are grammatical and phrasing issues throughout the manuscript and the manuscript would benefit from additional thorough editing.

      We appreciate this reviewer’s feedback. Thus, upon revising, we have carefully edited the manuscript with regard to possible grammatical and phrasing errors. We hope that our changes have made the manuscript clearer in order to facilitate readability by the audience.

      (6) The discussion should be edited to include consideration of an explanation for the presence of the effect in male, but not female, mice more clearly. The discussion should also include some discussion as to why the distribution of cell types used in the electrophysiology recordings was different between males and females and whether the distribution of CRFR1 is different between males and females. Lastly, the authors need to include consideration of extrahypothalamic CRF and CRFR1 as a possible explanation for their effects. While they have PVN neuron recordings, the treatments that they used are brain-wide and therefore the possibility that the critical actions of CRFR1 could be outside the PVN.

      At page 15, line 11 to page 16, line 2 of the “discussion” section, we have suggested several mechanisms that might underlie the sex-linked behavioral and brain effects of CR<sub>1</sub> receptor antagonism reported in our manuscript. With regard to the distribution of cell types examined in the electrophysiology studies, at page 16, lines 6-9 we have mentioned a seminal review reporting sex-linked expression of PVN OXY and AVP in a variety of animal species that is similar to our results. Moreover, at page 18, lines 2-6 we mentioned that more studies are needed to examine PVN CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor expression in male and female animals, an issue that is still poorly understood. Finally, at page 16, line 12 to page 17, line 7 of the “discussion” section we also suggest that CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor-expressing brain areas other than the PVN, such as the BNST or the VTA, might contribute to the sex-linked effects of morphine reported in our manuscript. Thus, in agreement with this reviewer’s suggestion, in the present version of the manuscript we have further emphasized the possible implication of CRF<sub>1</sub> receptor-expressing extrahypothalamic brain areas in social behavior deficits induced by opiate substances.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Comment 1: This manuscript from Clayton and co-authors, entitled ”Mechanism of dimer selectivity and binding cooperativity of BRAF inhibitors”, aims to clarify the molecular mechanism of BRAF dimer selectivity. Indeed, first-generation BRAF inhibitors, targeting monomeric BRAFV600E, are ineffective in treating resistant dimeric BRAF isoforms. Here, the authors employed molecular dynamics simulations to study the conformational dynamics of monomeric and dimeric BRAF, in the presence and absence of inhibitors. Multi-microsecond MD simulations showed an inward shift of the αC helix in the BRAFV600E mutant dimer. This helped in identifying a hydrogen bond between the inhibitors and the BRAF residue Glu501 as critical for dimer compatibility. The stability of the aforementioned interaction seems to be important to distinguish between dimer-selective and equipotent inhibitors.

      The study is overall valuable and robust. The authors used the recently developed particle mesh Ewald constant pH molecular dynamics, a state-of-the-art method, to investigate the correct histidine protonation considering the dynamics of the protein. Then, multi-microsecond simulations showed differences in the flexibility of the αC helix and DFG motif. The dimerization restricts the αC position in the inward conformation, in agreement with the result that dimer-compatible inhibitors can stabilize the αC-in state. Noteworthy, the MD simulations were used to study the interactions between the inhibitors and the protein, suggesting a critical role for a hydrogen bond with Glu501. Finally, simulations of a mixed state of BRAF (one protomer bound to the inhibitor and the other apo) indicate that the ability to stabilize the inward αC state of the apo protomer could be at the basis of the positive cooperativity of PHI1.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation of our work.

      Comment 2a: Regarding the analyses of the mixed state simulations, the DFG dihedral probability densities for the apo protomer (Fig. 5a right) are highly overlapping. It is not convincing that a slight shift can support the conclusion that the binding in one protomer is enough to shift the DFG motif outward allosterically. Moreover, the DFG dihedral time-series for the apo protomer (Supplementary Figure 9) clearly shows that the measured quantities are affected by significant fluctuations and poor consistency between the three replicates. The apo protomer of the mixed state simulations could be affected by the same problem that the authors pointed out in the case of the apo dimer simulations, where the amount of sampling is insufficient to model the DFG-out/-in transition properly.

      While the reviewer is correct there are large fluctuations in the DFG pseudo dihedral over the course of the apo simulations, these fluctuations occur primarily in the first 2 µs of the simulations, which were removed from our analysis. The reviewer is also correct that these simulations do not sufficiently model the DFG-out/-in transition; however, a full transition is not necessary for our analysis, as we are only interested in the shift of the DFG pseudo dihedral. As to the reviewer’s comment on the overlapping DFG distributions, we agree that the difference is very subtle. We revised the text.

      On page 9, second paragraph from the bottom:

      “While PHI1 or LY binding clearly perturbs the αC helix of the opposite apo protomer, the effect on the DFG conformation is less clear when comparing the DFG dihedral distribution of the the apo protomer in the PHI1 or LY-mixed dimer with that of the apo dimer (blue, orange, and grey, Figure 5a right). All three distributions are broad, covering a range of 160-330°. It appears that, relative to the apo dimer, the DFG of the apo protomer in the PHI1-mixed dimer is slightly shifted to the right, whereas that of the LY-mixed dimer is slightly shifted to the left; however, these differences are very subtle and warrant further investigation in future studies.”

      Comment 2b: There is similar concern with the Lys483-Glu501 salt bridge measured for the apo protomers of the mixed simulations. As it can be observed from the probabilities bar plot (Fig. 5a middle), the standard deviation is too high to support a significant role for this interaction in the allosteric modulation of the apo protomer.

      As for the salt bridge, the fluctuation in the apo dimer and LY-mixed dimer is indeed large, and together with the lower average probability suggests that the salt bridge is weaker, which is consistent with the αC helix moving outward. To clarify this, we revised the text.

      On page 9, second paragraph from the bottom:

      “Consistent with the inward shift of the αC helix, the Glu501–Lys483 salt bridge has a lower average probability and a larger fluctuation in the apo dimer and the apo protomer of the LY-mixed dimer, as compared to the apo protomer of the PHI1-mixed dimer.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Comment 1: The authors employ molecular dynamics simulations to understand the selectivity of FDA approved inhibitors within dimeric and monomeric BRAF species. Through these comprehensive simulations, they shed light on the selectivity of BRAF inhibitors by delineating the main structural changes occurring during dimerization and inhibitor action. Notably, they identify the two pivotal elements in this process: the movement and conformational changes involving the alpha-C helix and the formation of a hydrogen bond involving the Glu-501 residue. These findings find support in the analyses of various structures crystallized from dimers and co-crystallized monomers in the presence of inhibitors. The elucidation of this mechanism holds significant potential for advancing our understanding of kinase signalling and the development of future BRAF inhibitor drugs.

      The authors employ a diverse array of computational techniques to characterize the binding sites and interactions between inhibitors and the active site of BRAF in both dimeric and monomeric forms. They combine traditional and advanced molecular dynamics simulation techniques such as CpHMD (all-atom continuous constant pH molecular dynamics) to provide mechanistic explanations. Additionally, the paper introduces methods for identifying and characterizing the formation of the hydrogen bond involving the Glu501 residue without the need for extensive molecular dynamics simulations. This approach facilitates the rapid identification of future BRAF inhibitor candidates.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation of our work.

      Comment 2: Despite the use of molecular dynamics yields crucial structural insights and outlines a mechanism to elucidate dimer selectivity and cooperativity in these systems, the authors could consider adoption of free energy methods to estimate the values of hydrogen bond energies and hydrophobic interactions, thereby enhancing the depth of their analysis.

      As mentioned in our previous response, current free energy methods are capable of giving accurate estimates of the relative binding free energies of similar ligands; however, accurate calculations of the absolute free energies of hydrogen bond and hydrophobic interactions are not feasible yet. Thus, we decided not to pursue the calculations.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations to author):

      Comment 1: It would be useful to cite all supplementary figures in the main text (where relevant). In the present version, only Supplementary Figures 2,3, and 4 are cited in the main text.

      This was an oversight; supplementary figures 5 through 9 are now cited in the text, to point to the time-series of the quantity discussed. We note that supplementary figures 10 and 11 show the time-series of the root mean squared deviation (RMSD) of each protomer in both all monomeric and dimeric simulations; these quantities are not discussed in the manuscript but are provided for further insight.

      Comment 2: It is unclear whether the present data could support a direct involvement of the DFG movement in the allosteric mechanism proposed. The same argument applies to the Lys483Glu501 interaction in the apo protomer of the mixed state simulations. The current simulation data could only support a different stabilization of the αC-helix position. The authors should either remove/tone down the claim or extend the simulations to sample a ”converged” distribution of the DFG dihedral and the Lys483-Glu501 salt bridge of the apo protomers.

      We agree that the DFG change in the apo protomer of the PH1-mixed dimer is very subtle (see our response and revision to comment 2); however, the allosteric involvement of DFG is clearly demonstrated in Figure 5 (right panel in 5a and 5b). We compare three states: apo protomer in the mixed dimer, PHI1-bound protomer in the mixed dimer, and holo dimer (i.e., with two PHI1) Binding of the first PHI1 restricts the DFG conformation to the larger DFG dihedrals (blue curves in the top and bottom right panels). This effect (DFG outward and more restricted) is even strong when the second PHI1 binds, locking the DFG in both protomers to a narrow dihedral range 270–330 degree (green and blue curves in Figure 5b, right panel). These are allosteric effects, demonstrating that the second PH1 binding induces conformational change of the DFG in the first protomer. This is why in Figure 6, the DFG of the PHI1-bound protomer in the mixed dimer is labeled as “almost out”, while the DFG in the holo dimer is labeled as “fully out”.

      The effect of second PHI1 on the DFG of the first protomer is consistent with that the αC helix position, in which case, the second PH1 induces an inward movement of the αC of the first protomer (illustrated as “fully in” in the schematic Figure 6). Through the aC movement, the salt-bridge strength is affected, as we discussed in our response and revision to Reviewer’s comment 2a. To clarify these points, we revised the discussion of Figure 5. We made the x axis range of the DFG dihedral distributions the same between the top and bottom panels in Figure 5. To remove the claim of priming effect on DFG, we revised Figure 6.

      Page 10, Figure 5:

      we made the x axis range of the DFG dihedral distributions on the top and bottom panels the same to facilitate comparison.

      Page 11, second and third paragraphs:

      “Consistent with the change in the DFG conformation between the holo (two inhibitor) and apo dimers (Figure 3c,3f), DFG is rigidified upon binding of the first inhibitor, as evident from the narrower DFG dihedral distribution of the PHI1 or LY-bound protomer in the mixed protomer (Figure 5b right) compared to the apo protomer in the mixed dimer (Figure 5a right). Importantly, the DFG dihedral is right shifted in the occupied vs. apo protomer, demonstrating that the inhibitor pushes the DFG outward.”

      “Consistent with the effect of the second PHI1 on the αC position of the first PHI1-bound protomer, binding of the second PHI1 shifts the peak of the DFG distribution for both protomers further outward, as shown by the 30° larger DFG pseudo dihedral in the holo dimer relative to the mixed dimer (green and blue in Figure 5b right; Supplementary Figures 6,9). In contrast, there is no significant difference in the DFG pseudo dihedral between the LY-mixed and holo dimers. These data suggest that while the binding of the first PHI1 pushes the DFG outward, binding of the second PHI1 has an allosteric effect, shifting the DFG of the opposite protomer further outward.”

      On page 12, the last paragraph of Conclusion, we remove the claim of the priming effect for DFG:

      “The first PHI1 binding in the BRAF<sup>V600E</sup> dimer restricts the motion of the αC helix and DFG, shifting them slightly inward and outward, respectively (Figure 6, bottom right panel). Intriguingly, the first PHI1 binding primes the apo protomer by making the αC more favorable for binding, i.e., shifting the αC inward (Figure 6, bottom right panel). Importantly, upon binding the second PHI1, the αC helix is shifted further inward and the DFG is shifted further outward in both protomers.”

      On page 13, Figure 6:

      we removed the label “slightly outward” for DFG.

      Comment 3: An alternative approach could be using enhanced sampling methods to enhance the diffusion along these coordinates.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing up this point. While that the allostery and cooperativity effects are apparent from our simulation data, we agree that enhanced sampling methods in principle could be used to further converge the conformational sampling; however, these approaches face significant challenges. First, BRAF dimer is weakly associated, with αC helix forming a part of the dimer interface. Enhanced sampling of αC helix would likely result in dimer dissociation. On the other hand, simply using RMSD as a reaction coordinate or progress variable would not necessarily enhance the motion of αC helix or DFG or activation loop, which are all coupled. Second, our extensive simulations of a monomer kinase with metadynamics demonstrated that the kinase conformation becomes distorted when a biasing potential is placed to enhance the motion of DFG. This is likely because the other parts of the protein do not have enough time to relax to accommodate the conformational change. To our knowledge, this aspect has not been discussed in the current metadynamics literature, which focuses on the free energy differences and (local) conformational changes along the reaction coordinate. To clarify these points, we added a discussion.

      Page 6, end of the first paragraph:

      “We note that enhanced sampling methods were not used due to several challenges. First, the BRAF dimer is weakly associated, with αC helix forming a part of the dimer interface (Figure 1a). Enhanced sampling (particularly of αC helix) would likely lead to dimer dissociation. Second, biased sampling methods such as metadynamics may lead to unrealistic conformational states due to the slow relaxation of some parts of the protein to accommodate the conformational change directed by the reaction coordinate. For example, our unpublished metadynamics simulations of a monomer kinase showed that enhancing the DFG conformational change resulted in distortion of the kinase structure.”

      We thank the reviewers again for their valuable comments. We believe our revision has further elevated the quality of the manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors test the "OHC-fluid-pump" hypothesis by assaying the rates of kainic acid dispersal both in quiet and in cochleae stimulated by sounds of different levels and spectral content. The main result is that sound (and thus, presumably, OHC contractions and expansions) result in faster transport along the duct. OHC involvement is corroborated using salicylate, which yielded results similar to silence. Especially interesting is the fact that some stimuli (e.g., tones) seem to provide better/faster pumping than others (e.g., noise), ostensibly due to the phase profile of the resulting cochlear traveling-wave response.

      Strengths:

      The experiments appear well controlled and the results are novel and interesting. Some elegant cochlear modeling that includes coupling between the organ of Corti and the surrounding fluid as well as advective flow supports the proposed mechanism.

      The current limitations and future directions of the study, including possible experimental tests, extensions of the modeling work, and practical applications to drug delivery, are thoughtfully discussed.

      Weaknesses:

      Although the authors provide compelling evidence that OHC motility can usefully pump fluid, their claim (last sentence of the Abstract) that wideband OHC motility (i.e., motility in the "tail" region of the traveling wave) evolved for the purposes of circulating fluid---rather then emerging, say, as a happy by-product of OHC motility that evolved for other reasons---seems too strong.

      We adjusted our tone to be less assertive.

      Our measurements and simulations coherently suggest that active outer hair cells in the tail region of cochlear traveling waves drive cochlear fluid circulation.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Although recent cochlear micromechanical measurements in living animals have shown that outer hair cells drive broadband vibration of the reticular lamina, the role of this vibration in cochlear fluid circulation remains unknown. The authors hypothesized that motile outer hair cells may facilitate cochlear fluid circulation. To test this hypothesis, they investigated the effects of acoustic stimuli and salicylate, an outer hair cell motility blocker, on kainic acid-induced changes in the cochlear nucleus activities. The results demonstrated that acoustic stimuli reduced the latency of the kainic acid effect, with low-frequency tones being more effective than broadband noise. Salicylate reduced the effect of acoustic stimuli on kainic acid-induced changes. The authors also developed a computational model to provide a physical framework for interpreting experimental results. Their combined experimental and simulated results indicate that broadband outer hair cell action serves to drive cochlear fluid circulation.

      The major strengths of this study lie in its high significance and the synergistic use of electrophysiological recording of the cochlear nucleus responses alongside computational modeling. Cochlear outer hair cells have long been believed to be responsible for the exceptional sensitivity, sharp tuning, and huge dynamic range of mammalian hearing. However, recent observations of the broadband reticular lamina vibration contradict widely accepted view of frequency-specific cochlear amplification. Furthermore, there is currently no effective noninvasive method to deliver the drugs or genes to the cochlea, a crucial need for treating sensorineural hearing loss, one of the most common auditory disorders. This study addresses these important questions by observing outer hair cells' roles in the cochlear transport of kainic acid. The well-established electrophysiological method used to record cochlear nucleus responses produced valuable new data, and the custom-developed developed computational model greatly enhanced the interpretation of the experimental results.

      The authors successfully tested their hypothesis, with both the experimental and modeling results supporting the conclusion that active outer hair cells can enhance cochlear fluid circulation in the living cochlea.

      The findings from this study can potentially be applied for treating sensorineural hearing loss and advance our understanding of how outer hair cells contribute to cochlear amplification and normal hearing.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study reveals that sound exposure enhances drug delivery to the cochlea through the nonselective action of outer hair cells. The efficiency of sound-facilitated drug delivery is reduced when outer hair cell motility is inhibited. Additionally, low-frequency tones were found to be more effective than broadband noise for targeting substances to the cochlear apex. Computational model simulations support these findings.

      Strengths:

      The study provides compelling evidence that the broad action of outer hair cells is crucial for cochlear fluid circulation, offering a novel perspective on their function beyond frequency-selective amplification. Furthermore, these results could offer potential strategies for targeting and optimizing drug delivery throughout the cochlear spiral.

      Weaknesses:

      The primary weakness of this paper lies in the surgical procedure used for drug administration through the round window. Opening the cochlea can alter intracochlear pressure and disrupt the traveling wave from sound, a key factor influencing outer hair cell activity. However, the authors do not provide sufficient details on how they managed this issue during surgery. Additionally, the introduction section needs further development to better explain the background and emphasize the significance of the work.

      Comments on revisions:

      Thank you for addressing the comments and concerns. The author has responded to all points thoroughly and clarified them well. However, please include the key points from the responses to the comments (Introduction ((3), (5)) and Results ((5)) into the manuscript. While the explanations in the response letter are reasonable, the current descriptions in the manuscript may limit the reader's understanding. Expanding on these points in the Introduction, Results, or Discussion sections would enhance clarity and comprehensiveness.

      Introduction (3): As inner-ear fluid homeostasis is maintained locally, longitudinal electro-chemical gradients, including the endocochlear potential, may vary along the cochlear length (Schulte and Schmiedt 1992; Sadanaga and Morimitsu 1995; Hirose and Liberman 2003).

      Introduction (5): We do not want to distract the readers from the primary message by discussing different drug delivery methods into the inner ear. This paper is regarding active outer hair cells’ new role as the title suggests. An extensive discussion of drug delivery can confuse the theme of this work.

      Results (5): High frequencies were not tested because they would not affect drug delivery to the apex of the cochlea (i.e., the traveling waves stop near the CF location.)

    1. Author response:

      We thank the three anonymous reviewers who took the time to read and evaluate our work. We look forward to submitting a revised version of  the manuscript that addresses their comments. 

      We agree with the reviewers that missing genes and incomplete genome assemblies can be challenges when trying to make interspecies comparisons in a complex and repetitive region like the MHC. Our revised manuscript will include more discussion of this topic, and we look forward to future work on this region that considers the next generation of complete telomere-to-telomere genomes with long-read sequencing.

      Repeating this analysis with other gene families—immune and non-immune—is a great idea. While outside of the scope of this work, this will provide many opportunities for comparison and help tease apart the features that make this family unique.

      We also point readers to our companion paper, Ancient Trans-Species Polymorphism at the Major Histocompatibility Complex in Primates, which tackles different (but related) questions about long-term balancing selection in the primate MHC and also summarizes relevant past work in the area. This second paper addresses some questions raised by reviewers here.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The authors present their new bioinformatic tool called TEKRABber, and use it to correlate expression between KRAB ZNFs and TEs across different brain tissues, and across species. While the aims of the authors are clear and there would be significant interest from other researchers in the field for a program that can do such correlative gene expression analysis across individual genomes and species, the presented approach and work display significant shortcomings. In the current state of the analysis pipeline, the biases and shortcomings mentioned below, for which I have seen no proof that they are accounted for by the authors, are severely impacting the presented results and conclusions. It is therefore essential that the points below are addressed, involving significant changes in the TEKRABber program as well as the analysis pipeline, to prevent the identification of false positive and negative signals, that would severely affect the conclusions one can raise about the analysis.

      Thank you very much for the insightful review of our manuscript.

      My main concerns are provided below:

      (1) One important shortcoming of the biocomputational approach is that most TEs are not actually expressed, and others (Alus) are not a proxy of the activity of the TE class at all. I will explain: While specific TE classes can act as (species-specific) promoters for genes (such as LTRs) or are expressed as TE derived transcripts (LINEs, SVAs), the majority of other older TE classes do not have such behavior and are either neutral to the genome or may have some enhancer activity (as mapped in the program they refer to 'TEffectR'. A big focus is on Alus, but Alus contribute to a transcriptome in a different way too: They often become part of transcripts due to alternative splicing. As such, the presence of Alu derived transcripts is not a proxy for the expression/activity of the Alu class, but rather a result of some Alus being part of gene transcripts (see also next point). The bottom line is that the TEKRABber software/approach is heavily prone to picking up both false positives (TEs being part of transcribed loci) and false negatives (TEs not producing any transcripts at all), which has a big implication for how reads from TEs as done in this study should be interpreted: The TE expression used to correlate the KRAB ZNF expression is simply not representing the species-specific influences of TEs where the authors are after.

      With the strategy as described, a lot of TE expression is misinterpreted: TEs can be part of gene-derived transcripts due to alternative splicing (often happens for Alus) or as a result of the TE being present in an inefficiently spliced out intron (happens a lot) which leads to TE-derived reads as a result of that TE being part of that intron, rather than that TE being actively expressed. As a result, the data as analysed is not reliably indicating the expression of TEs (as the authors intend to) and should be filtered for any reads that are coming from the above scenarios: These reads have nothing to do with KRAB ZNF control, and are not representing actively expressed TEs and therefore should be removed. Given that from my lab's experience in the brain (and other) tissues, the proportion of RNA sequencing reads that are actually derived from active TEs is a stark minority compared to reads derived from TEs that happen to be in any of the many transcribed loci, applying this filtering is expected to have a huge impact on the results and conclusions of this study.

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for highlighting the potential issues of false positives and negatives in TE quantification. The reviewer provided valuable examples of how different TE classes, such as Alus, LTRs, LINEs, and SVAs, exhibit distinct behaviors in the genome. To our knowledge, specific tools like ERVmap (Tokuyama et al., 2018), which annotates ERVs, and LtrDetector (Joseph et al., 2019), which uses k-mer distributions to quantify LTRs, could indeed enhance precision by treating specific TE classes individually. We acknowledge that such approaches may yield more accurate results and appreciate the suggestion.

      In our study, we used TEtranscripts (Jin et al., 2015) prior to TEKRABber. TEtranscripts applies the Expectation Maximization (EM) algorithm to assign ambiguous reads as the following steps. Uniquely mapped reads are first assigned to genes, and reads overlapping genes and TEs are assigned to TEs only if they do not uniquely match an annotated gene. The remaining ambiguous reads are distributed based on EM iterations. While this approach may not be as specialized as the latest tools for specific TE classes, it provides a general overview of TE activity. TEtranscripts outputs subfamily-level TE expression data, which we used as input for TEKRABber to perform downstream analyses such as differential expression and correlation studies.

      We understand the importance of adapting tools to specific research objectives, including focusing on particular TE classes. TEKRABber is designed not to refine TE quantification at the mapping stage but to flexibly handle outputs from various TE quantification tools. It accepts raw TE counts as input in the form of dataframes, enabling diverse analytical pipelines. In the revised version of our manuscript, we will emphasize this distinction in the discussion and provide examples of how TEKRABber can integrate with other tools to enhance specificity and accuracy.

      (2) Another potential problem that I don't see addressed is that due to the high level of similarity of the many hundreds of KRAB ZNF genes in primates and the reads derived from them, and the inaccurate annotations of many KZNFs in non-human genomes, the expression data derived from RNA-seq datasets cannot be simply used to plot KZNF expression values, without significant work and manual curation to safeguard proper cross species ortholog-annotation: The work of Thomas and Schneider (2011) has studied this in great detail but genome-assemblies of non-human primates tend to be highly inaccurate in appointing the right ortholog of human ZNF genes. The problem becomes even bigger when RNA-sequencing reads are analyzed: RNA-sequencing reads from a human ZNF that emerged in great apes by duplication from an older parental gene (we have a decent number of those in the human genome) may be mapped to that older parental gene in Macaque genome: So, the expression of human-specific ZNF-B, that derived from the parental ZNF-A, is likely to be compared in their DESeq to the expression of ZNF-A in Macaque RNA-seq data. In other words, without a significant amount of manual curation, the DE-seq analysis is prone to lead to false comparisons which make the strategy and KRABber software approach described highly biased and unreliable.

      There is no doubt that there are differences in expression and activity of KRAB-ZNFs and TEs respectively that may have had important evolutionary consequences. However, because all of the network analyses in this paper rely on the analyses of RNA-seq data and the processing through the TE-KRABber software with the shortcomings and potential biases that I mentioned above, I need to emphasize that the results and conclusions are likely to be significantly different if the appropriate measures are taken to get more accurate and curated TE and KRAB ZNF expression data.

      We thank the reviewer for raising the important issue of accurately annotating the expanded repertoire of KRAB-ZNFs in primates, particularly the challenges of cross-species orthology and potential biases in RNA-seq data analysis. Indeed, we have also addressed this challenge in some of our previous papers (Nowick et al., 2010, Nowick et al., 2011 and Jovanovic et al., 2021).

      In the revised manuscript, we will include more details about our two-step strategy to ensure accurate KRAB-ZNF ortholog assignments. First, we employed the Gene Order Conservation (GOC) score from Ensembl BioMart as a primary filter, selecting only one-to-one orthologs with a GOC score above 75% across primates. This threshold, recommended in Ensembl’s ortholog quality control guidelines, ensures high-confidence orthology relationships, (http://www.ensembl.org/info/genome/compara/Ortholog_qc_manual.html#goc).

      Second, we incorporated data from Jovanovic et al. (2021), which independently validated KRAB-ZNF orthologs across 27 primate genomes. This additional layer of validation allowed us to refine our dataset, resulting in the identification of 337 orthologous KRAB-ZNFs for differential expression analysis (Figure S2).

      We acknowledge that different annotation methods or criteria may for some genes yield variations in the identified orthologs. However, we believe that this combination provides a robust starting point for addressing the challenges raised, while we remain open to additional refinements in future analyses.

      (3) The association with certain variations in ZNF genes with neurological disorders such as AD, as reported in the introduction is not entirely convincing without further functional support. Such associations could merely happen by chance, given the high number of ZNF genes in the human genome and the high chance that variations in these loci happen to associate with certain disease-associated traits. So using these associations as an argument that changes in TEs and KRAB ZNF networks are important for diseases like AD should be used with much more caution.

      There are a number of papers where KRAB ZNF and TE expression are analysed in parallel in human brain tissues. So the novelty of that aspect of the presented study may be limited.

      We fully acknowledge the concern that, given the large number of KRAB-ZNFs and their inherent variability, some associations with AD or other neurological disorders could occur by chance. This highlights the importance of additional functional studies to validate the causal role of KRAB-ZNF and TE interactions in disease contexts. While previous studies have indeed analyzed KRAB-ZNF and TE expression in human brain tissues, our study seeks to expand on this foundation by incorporating interspecies comparisons across primates. This approach enabled us to identify TE:KRAB-ZNF pairs that are uniquely present in healthy human brains, which may provide insights into their potential evolutionary significance and relevance to diseases like AD.

      In addition to analyzing RNA-seq data (GSE127898 and syn5550404), we have cross-validated our findings using ChIP-exo data for 159 KRAB-ZNF proteins and their TE binding regions in human (Imbeault et al., 2017). This allowed us to identify specific binding events between KRAB-ZNF and TE pairs, providing further support for the observed associations. We agree with the reviewer that additional experimental validations, such as functional studies, are critical to further establish the role of KRAB-ZNF and TE networks in AD. We hope that future research can build upon our findings to explore these associations in greater detail.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The aim was to decipher the regulatory networks of KRAB-ZNFs and TEs that have changed during human brain evolution and in Alzheimer's disease.

      Strengths:

      This solid study presents a valuable analysis and successfully confirms previous assumptions, but also goes beyond the current state of the art.

      Weaknesses:

      The design of the analysis needs to be slightly modified and a more in-depth analysis of the positive correlation cases would be beneficial. Some of the conclusions need to be reinterpreted.

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for the thoughtful summary, positive evaluation of our study, and constructive feedback. We appreciate the recognition of the strengths in our analysis and the valuable suggestions for improving its design and interpretation.

      We would like to briefly comment on the suggested modifications to the design here, and will provide a detailed point-by-point review later with our revised manuscript.

      The reviewer recommended considering a more recent timepoint, such as less than 25 million years ago (mya), to define the "evolutionary young group" of KRAB-ZNF genes and TEs when discussing the arms-race theory. This is indeed a valuable perspective, as the TE repressing functions by KRAB-ZNF proteins may have evolved more recently than the split between Old World Monkeys (OWM) and New World Monkeys (NWM) at 44.2 mya we used.

      Our rationale for selecting 44.2 mya is based on certain primate-specific TEs such as the Alu subfamilies, which emerged after the rise of Simiiformes and have been used in phylogenetic studies (Xing et al., 2007 and Williams et al., 2010). This timeframe allowed us to investigate the potential co-evolution of KRAB-ZNFs and TEs in species that emerged after the OWM-NWM split (e.g., human, chimpanzee, bonobos, and macaques used for this study). However, focusing only on KRAB-ZNFs and TEs younger than 25 million years would limit the analysis to just 9 KRAB-ZNFs and 92 TEs expressed in our datasets. While we will not conduct a reanalysis using this more recent timepoint, we will integrate the recommendation into the discussion section of the revised manuscript.

      Furthermore, we greatly appreciate the reviewer's detailed insights and suggestions for refining specific descriptions and interpretations in our manuscript. We will address these points in the revised version to ensure the content is presented with greater precision and clarity.

      Once again, we thank both reviewers for their valuable feedback, which provides significant input for strengthening our study.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors present an interesting study using RL and Bayesian modelling to examine differences in learning rate adaptation in conditions of high and low volatility and noise respectively. Through "lesioning" an optimal Bayesian model, they reveal that apparently a suboptimal adaptation of learning rates results from incorrectly detecting volatility in the environment when it is not in fact present.

      Strengths:

      The experimental task used is cleverly designed and does a good job of manipulating both volatility and noise. The modelling approach takes an interesting and creative approach to understanding the source of apparently suboptimal adaptation of learning rates to noise, through carefully "lesioning" and optimal Bayesian model to determine which components are responsible for this behaviour.

      We thank the reviewer for this assessment.

      Weaknesses:

      The study has a few substantial weaknesses; the data and modelling both appear robust and informative, and it tackles an interesting question. The model space could potentially have been expanded, particularly with regard to the inclusion of alternative strategies such as those that estimate latent states and adapt learning accordingly.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We agree that it would be interesting to assess the ability of alternative models to reproduce the sub-optimal choices of participants in this study. The Bayesian Observer Model described in the paper is a form of Hierarchical Gaussian Filter, so we will assess the performance of a different class of models that are able to track uncertainty-- RL based models that are able to capture changes of uncertainty (the Kalman filter, and the model described by Cochran and Cisler, Plos Comp Biol 2019). We will assess the ability of the models to recapitulate the core behaviour of participants (in terms of learning rate adaption) and, if possible, assess their ability to account for the pupillometry response.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors aimed to investigate how humans learn and adapt their behavior in dynamic environments characterized by two distinct types of uncertainty: volatility (systematic changes in outcomes) and noise (random variability in outcomes). Specifically, they sought to understand how participants adjust their learning rates in response to changes in these forms of uncertainty.

      To achieve this, the authors employed a two-step approach:

      (1) Reinforcement Learning (RL) Model: They first used an RL model to fit participants' behavior, revealing that the learning rate was context-dependent. In other words, it varied based on the levels of volatility and noise. However, the RL model showed that participants misattributed noise as volatility, leading to higher learning rates in noisy conditions, where the optimal strategy would be to be less sensitive to random fluctuations.

      (2) Bayesian Observer Model (BOM): To better account for this context dependency, they introduced a Bayesian Observer Model (BOM), which models how an ideal Bayesian learner would update their beliefs about environmental uncertainty. They found that a degraded version of the BOM, where the agent had a coarser representation of noise compared to volatility, best fit the participants' behavior. This suggested that participants were not fully distinguishing between noise and volatility, instead treating noise as volatility and adjusting their learning rates accordingly.

      The authors also aimed to use pupillometry data (measuring pupil dilation) as a physiological marker to arbitrate between models and understand how participants' internal representations of uncertainty influenced both their behavior and physiological responses. Their objective was to explore whether the BOM could explain not just behavioral choices but also these physiological responses, thereby providing stronger evidence for the model's validity.

      Overall, the study sought to reconcile approximate rationality in human learning by showing that participants still follow a Bayesian-like learning process, but with simplified internal models that lead to suboptimal decisions in noisy environments.

      Strengths:

      The generative model presented in the study is both innovative and insightful. The authors first employ a Reinforcement Learning (RL) model to fit participants' behavior, revealing that the learning rate is context-dependent-specifically, it varies based on the levels of volatility and noise in the task. They then introduce a Bayesian Observer Model (BOM) to account for this context dependency, ultimately finding that a degraded BOM - in which the agent has a coarser representation of noise compared to volatility - provides the best fit for the participants' behavior. This suggests that participants do not fully distinguish between noise and volatility, leading to the misattribution of noise as volatility. Consequently, participants adopt higher learning rates even in noisy contexts, where an optimal strategy would involve being less sensitive to new information (i.e., using lower learning rates). This finding highlights a rational but approximate learning process, as described in the paper.

      We thank the reviewer for their assessment of the paper.

      Weaknesses:

      While the RL and Bayesian models both successfully predict behavior, it remains unclear how to fully reconcile the two approaches. The RL model captures behavior in terms of a fixed or context-dependent learning rate, while the BOM provides a more nuanced account with dynamic updates based on volatility and noise. Both models can predict actions when fit appropriately, but the pupillometry data offers a promising avenue to arbitrate between the models. However, the current study does not provide a direct comparison between the RL framework and the Bayesian model in terms of how well they explain the pupillometry data. It would be valuable to see whether the RL model can also account for physiological markers of learning, such as pupil responses, or if the BOM offers a unique advantage in this regard. A comparison of the two models using pupillometry data could strengthen the argument for the BOM's superiority, as currently, the possibility that RL models could explain the physiological data remains unexplored.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. In the current version of the paper, we use an extremely simple reinforcement learning model to simply measure the learning rate in each task block (as this is the key behavioural metric we are interested in). As the reviewer highlights, this simple model doesn’t estimate uncertainty or adapt to it. Given this, we don’t think we can directly compare this model to the Bayesian Observer Model—for example, in the current analysis of the pupillometry data we classify individual trials based on the BOM’s estimate of uncertainty and show that participants adapt their learning rate as expected to the reclassified trials, this analysis would not be possible with our current RL model. However, there are more complex RL based models that do estimate uncertainty (as discussed above in response to Reviewer #1) and so may more directly be compared to the BOM. We will attempt to apply these models to our task data and describe their ability to account for participant behaviour and physiological response as suggested by the Reviewer.

      The model comparison between the Bayesian Observer Model and the self-defined degraded internal model could be further enhanced. Since different assumptions about the internal model's structure lead to varying levels of model complexity, using a formal criterion such as Bayesian Information Criterion (BIC) or Akaike Information Criterion (AIC) would allow for a more rigorous comparison of model fit. Including such comparisons would ensure that the degraded BOM is not simply favored due to its flexibility or higher complexity, but rather because it genuinely captures the participants' behavioral and physiological data better than alternative models. This would also help address concerns about overfitting and provide a clearer justification for using the degraded BOM over other potential models.

      Thank you, we will add this.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The study dissects distinct pools of diacylglycerol (DAG), continuing a line of research on the central concept that there is a major lipid metabolism DAG pool in cells, but also a smaller signaling DAG pool. It tests the hypothesis that the second pool is regulated by Dip2, which influences Pkc1 signaling. The group shows that stressed yeast increase specific DAG species C36:0 and 36:1, and propose this promotes Pkc1 activation via Pck1 binding 36:0. The study also examines how perturbing the lipid metabolism DAG pool via various deletions such as lro1, dga1, and pah1 deletion impacts DAG and stress signaling. Overall this is an interesting study that adds new data to how different DAG pools influence cellular signaling.

      Strengths:

      The study nicely combined lipidomic profiling with stress signaling biochemistry and yeast growth assays.

      We thank the reviewer for finding this study of interest and appreciating our multi-pronged approach to prove our hypothesis that a distinct pool of Dip2 regulated by DAGs activate PKC signalling.

      Weaknesses:

      One suggestion to improve the study is to examine the spatial organization of Dip2 within cells, and how this impacts its ability to modulate DAG pools. Dip2 has previously been proposed to function at mitochondria-vacuole contacts (Mondal 2022). Examining how Dip2 localization is impacted when different DAG pools are manipulated such as by deletion Pah1 (also suggested to work at yeast contact sites such as the nucleus-vacuole junction), or with Lro1 or Dga1 deletion would broaden the scope of the study.

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable suggestions regarding the spatial organization of Dip2 in cells under the influence of different DAG pools. As suggested, we will probe the localization of Dip2 in the absence of Pah1. We would also trace the localization of Dip2 in LRO1 and DGA1 deletion where the bulk DAGs are accumulated and present the data in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors use yeast genetics, lipidomic and biochemical approaches to demonstrate the DAG isoforms (36:0 and 36:1) can specifically activate PKC. Further, these DAG isoforms originate from PI and PI(4,5)P2. The authors propose that the Psi1-Plc1-Dip2 functions to maintain a normal level of specific DAG species to modulate PKC signalling.

      Strengths:

      Data from yeast genetics are clear and strong. The concept is potentially interesting and novel.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for the positive comments on our work. We are happy to know that the reviewer finds the study novel and interesting.

      Weaknesses:

      More evidence is needed to support the central hypothesis. The authors may consider the following:

      (1) Figure 2: the authors should show/examine C36:1 DAG. Also, some structural evidence would be highly useful here. What is the structural basis for the assertion that the PKC C1 domain can only be activated by C36:0/1 DAG but not other DAGs? This is a critical conclusion of this work and clear evidence is needed.

      We agree with the reviewer that PKC activated by C36:0 and C36:1 DAGs is a critical conclusion of our work. While we understand that there is no obvious structural explanation as to how the DAG binding C1 domain of PKC attains the acyl chain specificity for DAGs, our conclusion that yeast Pkc1 is selective for C36:0 and C36:1 DAGs is supported by a combination of robust in vitro and in vivo data

      1. In Vitro Evidence: The liposome binding assays demonstrate that the Pkc1 C1 domain only binds the selective DAG and does not interact with bulk DAGs.

      2. In Vivo Evidence: Lipidomic analyses of wild-type cells subjected to cell wall stress reveal increased levels of C36:0 and C36:1 DAGs, while levels of bulk DAGs remain unaffected. This clearly parallels the Dip2 knockout scenario in which the levels of the same set of DAGs go up and Pkc1 gets hyperactivated.

      These findings collectively indicate that Pkc1 neither binds nor is activated by bulk DAGs, reinforcing its specificity for C36:0 and C36:1 DAGs. It is also further corroborated by DGA1 and LRO1 knockouts wherein the increase of the bulk DAGs does not result in a significant increase in Pkc1 signalling.

      Moreover, elucidating the structural basis of this selectivity would require a specific DAG-bound C1 domain structure of Pkc1, which is difficult owing to the flexibility of the longer acyl chains present in C36:0 and C36:1 DAGs. Furthermore, capturing the full-length Pkc1 structure that might provide deeper insights has been challenging for several other groups for a long time. Additionally, we believe that the DAG selectivity by Pkc1 is more of a membrane-associated phenomenon wherein these DAGs might create a specific microdomain or a particular curvature which are required for Pkc1’s ability to bind DAG followed by activation. Investigating this would require extensive structural and biophysical studies, which are beyond the scope of the current work but are planned for future research.

      (2) Does Dip2 colocalize with Plc1 or Pkc1? Does Dip2 reach the plasma membrane upon Plc activation?

      Thank you for your questions regarding the colocalization and potential translocation of Dip2 upon Plc1 or Pkc1 activation.

      In the wild-type scenario, Dip2 does not colocalize with Pkc1. Dip2 predominantly localizes to the mitochondria and mitochondria-vacuole contact sites, while Pkc1 is found in the cytosol, plasma membrane and bud site. Moreover, the localization of Plc1 has not yet been studied in yeast and therefore we currently lack data on the colocalisation of Dip2 and Plc1.

      However, to investigate whether Dip2 translocates to the plasma membrane under conditions requiring Plc1 or Pkc1 activation, we plan to probe the localization of Dip2 under cell wall stress condition. This would provide a better understanding of the spatial crosstalk between Dip2 and Pkc1. We will include the results in the revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      In this manuscript, the role of orexin receptors in dopamine transmission is studied. It extends previous findings suggesting an interplay of these two systems in regulating behaviour by first characterising the expression of orexin receptors in the midbrain and then disrupting orexin transmission in dopaminergic neurons by deleting its predominant receptor, OX1R (Ox1R fl/fl, DatCre tg/wt mice). Electrophysiological and calcium imaging data suggest that orexin A acutely and directly stimulates SN and VTA dopaminergic neurons, but does not seem to induce c-Fos expression. Behavioural effects of depleting OX1R from dopaminergic neurons includes enhanced noveltyinduced locomotion and exploration, relative to littermate controls (Ox1R fl/fl, Dat-Cre wt/wt). However, no difference between groups is observed in tests that measure reward processing, anxiety, and energy homeostasis. To test whether depletion of OX1R alters overall orexin-triggered activation across the brain, PET imaging is used in OX1R∆DAT knockout and control mice. This analysis reveals that several regions show a higher neuronal activation after orexin injection in OX1R∆DAT mice, but the authors focus their follow up study on the dorsal bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BNST) and lateral paragigantocellular nucleus (LPGi). Dopaminergic inputs and expression of dopamine receptors type-1 and -2 (DRD1 & DRD2) is assessed and compared to control demonstrating moderate decrease of DRD1 and DRD2 expression in BNST of OX1R∆DAT mice and unaltered expression of DRD2, with absence of DRD1 expression in LPGi of both groups. Overall, this study is valuable for the information it provides on orexin receptor expression and function on behaviour and for the new tools it generated for the specific study of this receptor in dopaminergic circuits. 

      Strengths: 

      The use of a transgenic line that lacks OX1R in dopamine-transporter expressing neurons is a strong approach to dissect the direct role of orexin in modulating dopamine signalling in the brain. The battery of behavioural assays to study this line provides a valuable source of information for researchers interested in the role of orexin in animal physiology. 

      We thank the reviewer for summarizing the importance and significance of our study. 

      Weaknesses: 

      This study falls short in providing evidence for an anatomical substrate of the altered behaviour observed in mice lacking orexin receptor subtype 1 in dopaminergic neurons. How orexin transmission in dopaminergic neurons regulates the expression of postsynaptic dopamine receptors (as observed in BNST of OX1R<sup>∆DAT</sup> mice) is an intriguing question poorly discussed. Whether disruption of orexin activity alters dopamine release in target areas is an important point not addressed. 

      We identified dopaminergic fibers and dopamine receptors in the dBNST and LPGi, suggesting anatomical basis for dopamine neurons to regulate neural activity and receptor expression levels in these areas. PET imaging scan and c-Fos staining revealed that Ox1R signaling in dopaminergic cells regulates neuronal activity in dBNST and LPGi. The expression levels of Th were unchanged in both regions. Dopamine receptor 2 (DRD2), but not DRD1, is expressed in LPGi. The deletion of Ox1R in DAT-expressing cells did not affect DRD2 expression in LPGi. The expression levels of DRD1 and DRD2 were decreased or showed a tendency to decrease in dBNST. 

      We included the comments in the discussion in this revised manuscript (lines 308-312): ‘The expression levels of Th were not altered in dBNST or LPGi by Ox1R deletion in dopaminergic neurons. It remains unclear whether dopamine release is affected in these regions. It is possible that either the dopaminergic regulation of neuronal activity or the changes in dopamine release could lead to the decreased expression of dopamine receptors in dBNST.’

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      This manuscript examines expression of orexin receptors in midbrain - with a focus on dopamine neurons - and uses several fairly sophisticated manipulation techniques to explore the role of this peptide neurotransmitter in reward-related behaviors. Specifically, in situ hybridization is used to show that dopamine neurons predominantly express orexin receptor 1 subtype and then go on to delete this receptor in dopamine transporter-expressing using a transgenic strategy. Ex vivo calcium imaging of midbrain neurons is used to show that, in the absence of this receptor, orexin is no longer able to excite dopamine neurons of the substantia nigra. 

      The authors proceed to use this same model to study the effect of orexin receptor 1 deletion on a series of behavioral tests, namely, novelty-induced locomotion and exploration, anxiety-related behavior, preference for sweet solutions, cocaine-induced conditioned place preference, and energy metabolism. Of these, the most consistent effects are seen in the tests of novelty-induced locomotion and exploration in which the mice with orexin 1 receptor deletion are observed to show greater levels of exploration, relative to wild-type, when placed in a novel environment, an effect that is augmented after icv administration of orexin. 

      In the final part of the paper, the authors use PET imaging to compare brain-wide activity patterns in the mutant mice compared to wildtype. They find differences in several areas both under control conditions (i.e., after injection of saline) as well as after injection of orexin. They focus in on changes in dorsal bed nucleus of stria terminalis (dBNST) and the lateral paragigantocellular nucleus (LPGi) and perform analysis of the dopaminergic projections to these areas. They provide anatomical evidence that these regions are innervated by dopamine fibers from midbrain, are activated by orexin in control, but not mutant mice, and that dopamine receptors are present. Thus, they argue these anatomical data support the hypothesis that behavioral effects of orexin receptor 1 deletion in dopamine neurons are due to changes in dopamine signaling in these areas.

      Strengths: 

      Understanding how orexin interacts with the dopamine system is an important question and this paper contains several novel findings along these lines. Specifically:

      (1) Distribution of orexin receptor subtypes in VTA and SN is explored thoroughly.

      (2) Use of the genetic model that knocks out a specific orexin receptor subtype from dopaminetransporter-expressing neurons is a useful model and helps to narrow down the behavioral significance of this interaction.  

      (3) PET studies showing how central administration of orexin evokes dopamine release across the brain is intriguing, especially that two key areas are pursued - BNST and LPGi - where the dopamine projection is not as well described/understood. 

      We thank the reviewer for summarizing the importance and significance of our study. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The role of the orexin-dopamine interaction is not explored in enough detail. The manuscript presents several related findings, but the combination of anatomy and manipulation studies do not quite tell a cogent story. Ideally, one would like to see the authors focus on a specific behavioral parameter and show that one of their final target areas (dBNST or LPGi) was responsible or at least correlated with this behavioral readout. 

      We agree that exploring the orexin-dopamine interactions in more detail and focusing on the behavioral impact of their final target areas (e.g., dBNST or LPGi), would provide valuable data. While we are very interested in pursuing these studies, the aim of the present manuscript is to provide an overview of the behavioral roles of orexin-dopamine interaction and to propose some promising downstream pathways in a relatively broad and systematic manner. 

      In many places in the Results, insufficient explanation and statistical reporting is provided. Throughout the Results - especially in the section on behavior although not restricted to this part - statements are made without statistical tests presented to back up the claims, e.g., "Compared to controls, Ox1R<sup>ΔDAT</sup> 143 mice did not show significant changes in spontaneous locomotor activity in home cages" (L143) and "In a hole-board test, female Ox1RΔDAT mice showed increased nose pokes into the holes in early (1st and 2nd) sessions compared to control mice" (L151). In other places, ANOVAs are mentioned but full results including main effects and interactions are not described in detail, e.g., in F3-S3, only a single p-value is presented and it is difficult to know if this is the interaction term or a post hoc test (L205). These and all other statements need statistics included in the text as support. Addition of these statistical details was also requested by the editor. 

      We submitted all our source data as Excel spreadsheets to eLife during our first-round revision, and the full statistics, such as main effects and interactions, are presented alongside the source data in the respective spreadsheets. We thank the reviewer for pointing out our lack of clarity in the manuscript. In this revised manuscript, we included the statistical details of ANOVAs mentioned above in the figure legends. In the figure legends, we also explained that the full statistics were provided alongside the source data in the supplementary materials.

      In the presentation of reward processing this is particularly important as no statistical tests are shown to demonstrate that controls show a cocaine-induced preference or a sucrose preference. Here, one option would be to perform one-sample t-tests showing that the data were different to zero (no preference). As it is, the claim that "Both of the control and Ox1RΔDAT groups showed a preference for cocaine injection" is not yet statistically supported. 

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestions. We have added the one-sample t-test results in this revised manuscript (Figure 2–figure supplement 4, lines 171 - 183). 

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      Can the authors comment on overlap between DAT and Ox1R in brain areas outside VTA/SN? Is there any? 

      We only focused on the expression patterns of orexin receptors in VTA/SN, and we did not examine other brain regions. Additionally, little is known from the literature about the expression of Ox1R in DAT-expressing cells in brain areas outside VTA/SN. Further analysis is necessary to answer this question. We have added the comment in our discussion (lines 243 - 344).

      For the Ca2+ imaging experiment, it is unclear to me why the authors do not show all the neurons (almost 160 in total) and just select 5 neurons to show for each condition. 

      Heat maps of all recorded neurons are now shown in Figure 1—figure supplement 4.

      There are other claims that still require a statistical justification to be included in addition to the passages on behavior mentioned above, e.g., "Increasing the orexin A concentration to 300 nM further increased [Ca2+]i" (L118). 

      Authors should ensure that all such claims are either presented with a statistical test or are phrased differently, e.g. "Visual inspection of data suggested that there was a further increase...". In addition, when an ANOVA is conducted, full results including main effects and interactions should be described. 

      We emphasize now our statement that ALREADY 100 nM orexin A significantly increased [Ca<sup>2+</sup>]i levels (lines 117 - 118).

      We submitted all our source data as Excel spreadsheets to eLife during our first-round revision, and the full statistics, such as main effects and interactions, are presented alongside the source data in the respective spreadsheets. For clarity, we chose to include only the key statistical information in the main text and figures. We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. In this revised manuscript, we have emphasized in each figure legend: ‘Source data and full statistics are provided in the supplementary materials’.

      Typos in figure captions  

      F2-S1 - spontanous 

      F3-S2 - intrest 

      We apologize for the typos. We have corrected them in this revised manuscript.

      Editor's note: 

      Should you choose to revise your manuscript, please include full statistical reporting including exact p-values wherever possible alongside the summary statistics (test statistic and df) and 95% confidence intervals. These should be reported for all key questions and not only when the p-value is less than 0.05. 

      We submitted all our source data as Excel spreadsheets to eLife during our first-round revision, and the full statistics, such as test statistics, df and 95% confidence intervals, are presented alongside the source data in the respective spreadsheets. We thank the editor’s note. In this revised manuscript, we have included more statistical information in the main text and figure legends (see our response to reviewer #2). In the figure legends, we also explained that the full statistics were provided alongside the source data in the supplementary materials. In addition, we also uploaded the source data and full statistics in the bioRxiv before we upload this revised manuscript to eLife.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study sought to reveal the potential roles of m6A RNA methylation in gene dosage regulatory mechanisms, particularly in the context of aneuploid genomes in Drosophila. Specifically, this work looked at the relationships between the expression of m6A regulatory factors, RNA methylation status, classical and inverse dosage effects, and dosage compensation. Using RNA sequencing and m6A mapping experiments, an in-depth analysis was performed to reveal changes in m6A status and expression changes across multiple aneuploid Drosophila models. The authors propose that m6A methylation regulates MOF and, in turn, deposition of H4K16Ac, critical regulators of gene dosage in the context of genomic imbalance.

      Strengths:

      This study seeks to address an interesting question with respect to gene dosage regulation and the possible roles of m6A in that process. Previous work has linked m6A to X-inactivation in humans through the Xist lncRNA, and to the regulation of the Sxl in flies. This study seeks to broaden that understanding beyond these specific contexts to more broadly understand how m6A impacts imbalanced genomes in other contexts.

      Weaknesses:

      The methods being used particularly for analysis of m6A at both the bulk and transcript-specific level are not sufficiently specific or quantitative to be able to confidently draw the conclusions the authors seek to make. MeRIP m6A mapping experiments can be very valuable, but differential methylation is difficult to assess when changes are small (as they often are, in this study but also m6A studies more broadly). For instance, based on the data presented and the methods described, it is not clear that the statement that "expression levels at m6A sites in aneuploidies are significantly higher than that in wildtype" is supported. MeRIP experiments are not quantitative, and since there are far fewer peaks in aneuploidies, it stands to reason that more antibody binding sites may be available to enrich those fewer peaks to a larger extent. But based on the data as presented (figure 2D) this conclusion was drawn from RPKM in IP samples, which may not fully account for changing transcript abundances in absolute (expression level changes) and relative (proportion of transcripts in input RNA sample) terms.

      Methylated RNA immunoprecipitation followed by sequencing (MeRIP-seq) is a commonly used strategy of genome-wide mapping of m6A modification. This method uses anti-m6A antibody to immunoprecipitate RNA fragments, which results in selective enrichment of methylated RNA. Then the RNA fragments were subjected to deep sequencing, and the regions enriched in the immunoprecipitate relative to input samples are identified as m6A peaks using the peak calling algorithm. We identified m6A peaks in different samples by the exomePeak2 program and determined common m6A peaks for each genotype based on the intersection of biological replicates. Figure 2D shows the RPM values of m6A peaks in MeRIP samples for each genotype, indicating that the levels of reads in the m6A peak regions were significantly higher in the aneuploid IP samples than in wildtypes. When the enrichment of IP samples relative to Input samples (RPM.IP/RPM.Input) was taken into account, the statistics for all three aneuploidies were still significantly higher than those of the wildtypes (Mann Whitney U test p-values < 0.001). This analysis is not about changes in the abundance of transcripts, but from the MeRIP perspective, showing that there are relatively more m6A-modified reads mapped to the m6A peaks in aneuploidies than that in wildtypes. We hope to provide a possible explanation for the phenomenon that the quantitative changes of m6A peaks are not consistent with the overall m6A abundance trend. We have added the results of IP/Input in the main text, and revised the description in the manuscript to make it more precise to reduce possible misunderstandings.

      The bulk-level m6A measurements as performed here also cannot effectively support these conclusions, as they are measured in total RNA. The focus of the work is mRNA m6A regulators, but m6A levels measured from total RNA samples will not reflect mRNA m6A levels as there are other abundance RNAs that contain m6A (including rRNA). As a result, conclusions about mRNA m6A levels from these measurements are not supported.

      According to published articles, m6A levels of mRNA or total RNA can be detected by different methods (such as mass spectrometry, 2D thin-layer chromatography, etc.) in Drosophila cells or tissues [1-3]. We used the EpiQuik m6A RNA Methylation Quantification Kit, which is suitable for detecting m6A methylation status directly using total RNA isolated from any species such as mammals, plants, fungi, bacteria, and viruses. This kit has previously been used by researchers to detect the m6A/A ratio in total RNA [4, 5] or purified mRNA [6] from different species. Our pre-experiments showed that the enrichment of mRNA from total RNA did not appear to significantly affect the results of the detection of m6A levels.

      We extracted and purified mRNA from the heads of the control and MSL2 transgenic Drosophila to verify our conclusion. mRNA was isolated from total RNA using the Dynabeads mRNA purification kit (Invitrogen, Carlsbad, CA, USA, 61006). It was showing a heightened abundance of m6A modification on mRNA as opposed to total RNA (Figure 7E,F; Figure 7—figure supplement 1G,H). Compared with control Drosophila, the abundance changes of m6A in mRNA and total RNA in MSL2 transgenic Drosophila are basically the same. These results supported the conclusions in our manuscript. In the MSL2 knockdown Drosophila, the m6A modification levels on mRNA mirrored those observed on total RNA, exhibiting a significant downregulation (Figure 7E; Figure 7—figure supplement 1G). The only difference is that no substantial difference in the m6A abundance on mRNA was detected between MSL2 overexpressed female and the control Drosophila (Figure 7F; Figure 7—figure supplement 1H). It is suggested that m6A modification in other types of RNA other than mRNA (e.g., lncRNA, rRNA) is not necessarily meaningless, which is the future research direction. We will also add discussions of this issue in the manuscript.

      (1) Lence T, et al. (2016) m6A modulates neuronal functions and sex determination in Drosophila. Nature 540(7632):242-247.

      (2) Haussmann IU, et al. (2016) m(6)A potentiates Sxl alternative pre-mRNA splicing for robust Drosophila sex determination. Nature 540(7632):301-304.

      (3) Kan L, et al. (2017) The m(6)A pathway facilitates sex determination in Drosophila. Nat Commun 8:15737.

      (4) Zhu C, et al. (2023) RNA Methylome Reveals the m(6)A-mediated Regulation of Flavor Metabolites in Tea Leaves under Solar-withering. Genomics Proteomics Bioinformatics 21(4):769-787.

      (5) Song H, et al. (2021) METTL3-mediated m(6)A RNA methylation promotes the anti-tumour immunity of natural killer cells. Nat Commun 12(1):5522.

      (6) Yin H, et al. (2021) RNA m6A methylation orchestrates cancer growth and metastasis via macrophage reprogramming. Nat Commun 12(1):1394.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors have tested the effects of partial- or whole-chromosome aneuploidy on the m6A RNA modification in Drosophila. The data reveal that overall m6A levels trend up but that the number of sites found by meRIP-seq trend down, which seems to suggest that aneuploidy causes a subset of sites to become hyper-methylated. Subsequent bioinformatic analysis of other published datasets establish correlations between the activity of the H4K16 acetyltransferase dosage compensation complex (DCC) and the expression of m6A components and m6A abundance, suggesting that DCC and m6A can act in a feedback loop on each other. Overall, this paper uses bioinformatic trends to generate a candidate model of feedback between DCC and m6A. It would be improved by functional studies that validate the effect in vivo.

      Strengths:

      • Thorough bioinformatic analysis of their data.

      • Incorporation of other published datasets that enhance scope and rigor.

      • Finds trends that suggest that a chromosome counting mechanism can control m6A, as fits with pub data that the Sxl mRNA is m6A modified in XX females and not XY males.

      • Suggests this counting mechanism may be due to the effect of chromatin-dependent effects on the expression of m6A components.

      Weaknesses:

      • The linkage between H4K16 machinery and m6A is indirect and based on bioinformatic trends with little follow-up to test the mechanistic bases of these trends.

      Western blots were performed to detect H4K16Ac in Ythdc1 knockdown Drosophila and control Drosophila. Through quantitative analysis, it is demonstrated that H4K16Ac levels changed significantly in Ythdc1 knockdown Drosophila. Combined with the results of polytene chromosome immunostaining in third instar larvae, we found that Ythdc1 affects the expression of H4K16Ac in tissue- and developmental stage-specific manners. This specificity may be associated with the onuniformity and heterogeneity of RNA m6A modification characteristics, encompassing the tissue specificity, the developmental specificity, the different numbers of m6A sites in one transcript, the different proportions of methylated transcripts, et cetera [1-3].

      In addition, we found a set of ChIP-seq data (GSE109901) of H4K16ac in female and male Drosophila larvae from the public database, and analyzed whether H4K16ac is directly associated with m6A regulator genes. ChIP-seq is a standard method to study transcription factor binding and histone modification by using efficient and specific antibodies for immunoprecipitation. The results showed that there were H4K16ac peaks at the 5' region in gene of m6A reader Ythdc1 in both males and females. In addition, most of the genome sites where the other m6A regulator genes located are acetylated at H4K16 in both sexes, except that Ime4 shows sexual dimorphism and only contains H4K16ac peak in females. These results indicate that the m6A regulator gene itself is acetylated at H4K16, so there is a direct relationship between H4K16ac and m6A regulators. We have added these contents to the text.

      Our analysis of experimental outcomes and public sequencing data has shed light on the interaction of the m6A reader protein Ythdc1 with H4K16Ac. We appreciate your interest in the complex interplay between H4K16Ac and m6A modifications. We acknowledge the intricacy of this interaction and concur that it merits further investigation, potentially supported by additional experiments.

      In current submitted manuscript, it is mainly focused on the role of RNA m6A modification in genomes experiencing imbalance, and we are going to explore this complex interplay in subsequent work for sure.

      (1) Meyer, K. D., et al. (2012). Comprehensive analysis of mRNA methylation reveals enrichment in 3' UTRs and near stop codons. Cell, 149(7), 1635-1646.

      (2) Meyer, K. D., & Jaffrey, S. R. (2014). The dynamic epitranscriptome: N6-methyladenosine and gene expression control. Nature Reviews: Molecular Cell Biology, 15(5), 313-326.

      (3) Zaccara, S., Ries, R. J., & Jaffrey, S. R. (2019). Reading, writing and erasing mRNA methylation. Nature Reviews: Molecular Cell Biology, 20(10), 608-624.

      • The paper lacks sufficient in vivo validation of the effects of DCC alleles on m6A and vice versa. For example, Is the Ythdc1 genomic locus a direct target of the DCC component Msl-2 ? (see Figure 7).

      In order to study whether Ythdc1 genomic locus is a direct target of DCC component, we first analyzed a published MSL2 ChIP-seq data of Drosophila (GSE58768). Since MSL2 is only expressed in males under normal conditions, this set of data is from male Drosophila. According to the results, the majority (99.1%) of MSL2 peaks are located on the X chromosome, while the MSL2 peaks on other chromosomes are few. This is consistent with the fact that MSL2 is enriched on the X chromosome in male Drosophila [1, 2]. Ythdc1 gene is located on chromosome 3L, and there is no MSL2 peak near it. Similarly, other m6A regulator genes are not X-linked, and there is no MSL2 peak. Then we analyzed the MOF ChIP-seq data (GSE58768) of male Drosophila. It was found that 61.6% of MOF peaks were located on the X chromosome, which was also expected [3, 4]. Although there are more MOF peaks on autosomes than MSL2 peaks, MOF peaks are absent on m6A regulator genes on autosomes. Therefore, at present, there is no evidence that the gene locus of m6A regulators are the direct targets of DCC component MSL2 and MOF, which may be due to the fact that most MSL2 and MOF are tethered to the X chromosome by MSL complex under physiological conditions. Whether there are other direct or indirect interactions between Ythdc1 and MSL2 is an issue worthy of further study in the future.

      (1) Bashaw GJ & Baker BS (1995) The msl-2 dosage compensation gene of Drosophila encodes a putative DNA-binding protein whose expression is sex specifically regulated by Sex-lethal. Development 121(10):3245-3258.

      (2) Kelley RL, et al. (1995) Expression of msl-2 causes assembly of dosage compensation regulators on the X chromosomes and female lethality in Drosophila. Cell 81(6):867-877.

      (3) Kind J, et al. (2008) Genome-wide analysis reveals MOF as a key regulator of dosage compensation and gene expression in Drosophila. Cell 133(5):813-828.

      (4) Conrad T, et al. (2012) The MOF chromobarrel domain controls genome-wide H4K16 acetylation and spreading of the MSL complex. Dev Cell 22(3):610-624.

      Quite a bit of technical detail is omitted from the main text, making it difficult for the reader to interpret outcomes.

      (1) Please add the tissues to the labels in Figure 1D.

      Figure 1D shows the subcellular localization of FISH probe signals in Drosophila embryos. Arrowheads indicate the foci of probe signals. The corresponding tissue types are (1) blastoderm nuclei; (2) yolk plasm and pole cells; (3) brain and midgut; (4) salivary gland and midgut; (5) blastoderm nuclei and yolk cortex; (6) blastoderm nuclei and pole cells; (7) blastoderm nuclei and yolk cortex; (8) germ band. We have added these to the manuscript.

      (2) In the main text, please provide detail on the source tissues used for meRIP; was it whole larvae? adult heads? Most published datasets are from S2 cells or adult heads and comparing m6A across tissues and developmental stages could introduce quite a bit of variability, even in wt samples. This issue seems to be what the authors discuss in lines 197-199.

      In this article, the material used to perform MeRIP-seq was the whole third instar larvae. Because trisomy 2L and metafemale Drosophila died before developing into adults, it was not possible to use the heads of adults for MeRIP-seq detection of aneuploidy. For other experiments described here, the m6A abundance was measured using whole larvae or adult heads; material used for RT-qPCR analysis was whole larvae, larval brains, or adult heads; Drosophila embryos at different developmental stages were used for fluorescence in situ hybridization (FISH) experiments. We provide a detailed description of the experimental material for each assay in the manuscript.

      (3) In the main text, please identify the technique used to measure "total m6A/A" in Fig 2A. I assume it is mass spec.

      We used the EpiQuik m6A RNA Methylation Quantification Kit (Colorimetric) (Epigentek, NY, USA, Cat # P-9005) to measure the m6A/A ratio in RNA samples. This kit is commercially available for quantification of m6A RNA methylation, which used colorimetric assay with easy-to-follow steps for convenience and speed, and is suitable for detecting m6A methylation status directly using total RNA isolated from any species such as mammals, plants, fungi, bacteria, and viruses.

      (4) Line 190-191: the text describes annotating m6A sites by "nearest gene" which is confusing. The sites are mapped in RNAs, so the authors must unambiguously know the identity of the gene/transcript, right?

      When the m6A peaks were annotated using the R package ChIPseeker, it will include two items: "genomic annotation" and "nearest gene annotation". "Genomic annotation" tells us which genomic features the peak is annotated to, such as 5’UTR, 3’UTR, exon, etc. "Nearest gene annotation" indicates which specific gene/transcript the peak is matched to. We modified the description in the main text to make it easier to understand.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      While I believe this study aims to address a very interesting question and demonstrates intriguing evidence suggesting a role for m6A in unbalanced genomes, technical limitations in the methods being used limited my confidence in the overall conclusions. In addition, some of the analyses seemed to distract a bit from the main question of the work, which made thoroughly reading and reviewing the work challenging at times due to the length and lack of cohesion. Some specific points and suggestions are detailed below.

      (1) Some specific points/recommendations for the bulk m6A measurements: for Figure 2A, the authors refer to m6A/A ratio in the text, but based on the methods section and axis labels in Figure 2A (as well as other figures), it may represent m6A% in total RNA. The authors should just clarify which one it is and make the text and figures consistent. The methods description also seems to specify that m6A is quantified in total RNA, and yet the factors being discussed (Ime4, Ythdc1, etc) are associated with m6A in mRNA. Since m6A is present in non-mRNAs (including highly abundant rRNAs), m6A analysis of total RNA may be masking some of the effects due to the relatively low abundance of mRNA relative to rRNA. It is possible that the above point contributes to the discrepancy between the overall m6A abundance in aneuploidies and the changing methylase expression levels (which does seem to correlate better with m6A sequencing data). On a related note, though the authors suggest in Figures 7E and F that m6A level changes are different in males and females, the levels and trends of m6A% in these panels seem quite similar, and the absence of the presence of statistical significance seems driven by higher variation (larger error bars) in the measurements in 7F (and again effects may be masked if total RNA is being quantified). This may be a very addressable issue, as m6A analysis of mRNA-enriched samples should be feasible, and in fact, may show clearer changes to better support the authors' conclusions.

      Thank you for your helpful comments.

      As suggested, the abundance of m6A on mRNA were detected (Figure 7E, F). Total RNA was extracted from the heads of the control and MSL2 transgenic Drosophila and mRNA was isolated using the Dynabeads mRNA purification kit (Invitrogen, Carlsbad, CA, USA, 61006). 300-600 ng mRNA can be purified from 40 μg total RNA (200-300 heads per sample). We used the EpiQuik m6A RNA Methylation Quantification Kit (Colorimetric) (Epigentek, NY, USA, Cat # P-9005) to measure the abundance of m6A in mRNA samples (200ng). The results obtained by this method represent the m6A/A ratio (%), which is also written as m6A% on the user guide of the kit. We made corresponding revisions in the main text and figures to made them consistent.

      It is showing a heightened abundance of m6A modification on mRNA as opposed to total RNA including some other types of RNA such as mRNA, lncRNA, and rRNA (Figure 7E,F; Figure 7—figure supplement 1G,H). Consistently, in the MSL2 knockdown Drosophila, the m6A modification levels on mRNA mirrored those observed on total RNA, exhibiting a significant downregulation (Figure 7E; Figure 7—figure supplement 1G). In contrast, no substantial difference in the m6A abundance on mRNA was detected between MSL2 overexpressed Drosophila and the control Drosophila (Figure 7F; Figure 7—figure supplement 1H). The differences of m6A abundance between males and females were not statistically significant (Figure 7E,F), prompting us to make revisions to the manuscript.

      (2) The analyses in Figures 5 and 6 describe a lot of different comparisons derived from these datasets, and while there seem to be many interesting new hypotheses to be tested, the authors do not make any definitive conclusions from these analyses. These figures also seem to diverge a bit from the main conclusion of the work, and from this reviewer's perspective made it more difficult to read and review the work. Overall streamlining the narrative may help readers appreciate the main conclusions of the work (though this is of course up to the author's discretion).

      As indicated in Figure 5, the results demonstrated a sexually dimorphic role of m6A modification in the regulation of gene expression in aneuploid Drosophila, suggesting its potential involvement in the gene regulatory network through interactions with dosage-sensitive regulators. Furthermore, Figure 6 illustrated the intricate interplay between RNA m6A modification, gene expression, and alternative splicing under genomic imbalance, with RNA splicing being more intimately associated with m6A methylation than gene transcription itself.

      This manuscript also discussed the correlation between methylation status and classical dosage effects, dosage compensation effects, and inverse dosage effects. We have initially demonstrated that RNA m6A methylation could influence dosage-dependent gene regulation via multiple avenues, such as interactions with dosage-sensitive modifiers, alternative splicing mechanisms, the MSL complex, and other related processes. Indeed, our study primarily utilizes m6A methylated RNA immunoprecipitation sequencing (MeRIP-Seq) to comprehensively investigate the role of RNA m6A modification in genomes experiencing imbalance. We agree that more specific and in-depth research on these factors will be instrumental in elucidating the precise mechanisms by which m6A modification regulates expression in unbalanced genomes, which we acknowledge as a significant avenue for our future research.

      We are grateful for your suggestions and, should it be necessary, we might to simplify the volume of the whole manuscript by removing or condensing the data analyse and description to enhance the prominence of the central theme.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Overall, please provide enough technical detail in the main text so that the reader understands what was done, and does not have to repeatedly dig into figure legends and materials and methods to understand each data statement.

      Thank you for your suggestions. We have added some technical details to the manuscript and made some modifications as suggested.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      How reconsolidation works - particularly in humans - remains largely unknown. With an elegant, 3-day design, combining fMRI and psychopharmacology, the authors provide evidence for a certain role for noradrenaline in the reconsolidation of memory for neutral stimuli. All memory tasks were performed in the context of fMRI scanning, with additional resting-state acquisitions performed before and after recall testing on Day 2. On Day 1, 3 groups of healthy participants encoded word-picture associates (with pictures being either scenes or objects) and then performed an immediate cued recall task to presentation of the word (answering is the word old or new, and whether it was paired with a scene or an object). On Day 2, the cued recall task was repeated using half of the stimulus set words encoded on Day 1 (only old words were presented, with subjects required to indicate prior scene vs object pairing). This test was immediately preceded by the oral administration of placebo, cortisol, or yohimbine (to raise noradrenaline levels) depending on group assignment. On Day 3, all words presented on Day 1 were presented. As expected, on Day 3, memory was significantly enhanced for associations that were cued and successfully retrieved on Day 2 compared to uncued associations. However, for associative d', there was no Cued × Group interaction nor a main effect of Group, i.e., on the standard measure of memory performance, post-retrieval drug presence on Day 2 did not affect memory reconsolidation. As further evidence for a null result, fMRI univariate analyses showed no Cued × Group interactions in whole-brain or ROI activity.

      Strengths:

      There are some aspects of this study that I find impressive. The study is well-designed and the fMRI analysis methodology is innovative and sound. The authors have made meticulous and thorough physiological measurements, and assays of mood, throughout the experiment. By doing so, they have overcome, to a considerable extent, the difficulties inherent in the timing of human oral drug delivery in reconsolidation tasks, where it is difficult to have the drug present in the immediate recall period without affecting recall itself. This is beautifully shown in Figure 3. I also think that having some neurobiological assay of memory reactivation when studying reconsolidation in humans is critical, and the authors provide this. While multi-voxel patterns of hemodynamic responses are, in my view, very difficult to equate with an "engram", these patterns do have something to do with memory.

      We thank the reviewer for considering aspects of our work impressive, the study to be well-designed, and the methodology to be innovative and sound.

      Weaknesses:

      I have major issues regarding the behavioral results and the framing of the manuscript.

      (1) To arrive at group differences in memory performance, the authors performed median splitting of Day 3 trials by short and long reaction times during memory cueing on Day 2, as they took this as a putative measure of high/low levels of memory reactivation. Associative category hits on Day 3 showed a Group by Day 2 Reaction time (short, long) interaction, with post-hocs showing (according to the text) worse memory for short Day 2 RTs in the Yohimbine group. These post-hocs should be corrected for multiple comparisons, as the result is not what would be predicted (see point 2). My primary issue here is that we are not given RT data for each group, nor is the median splitting procedure described in the methods. Was this across all groups, or within groups? Are short RTs in the yohimbine group any different from short RTs in the other two groups? Unfortunately, we are not given Day 2 picture category memory levels or reaction times for each group. This is relevant because (as given in Supplemental Table S1) memory performance (d´) for the Yohimbine group on Day 1 immediate testing is (roughly speaking) 20% lower than the other 2 groups (independently of whether the pairs will be presented again the following day). I appreciate that this is not significant in a group x performance ANOVA but how does this relate to later memory performance? What were the group-specific RTs on Day 1? So, before the reader goes into the fMRI results, there are questions regarding the supposed drug-induced changes in behavior. Indeed, in the discussion, there is repeated mention of subsequent memory impairment produced by yohimbine but the nature of the impairment is not clear.

      Thank you for the opportunity to clarify these important issues.

      Reaction times are well established proxies (correlates) of memory strength and memory confidence in previous research, as they reflect cognitive processes involved in retrieving information. Faster reaction times indicate stronger mnemonic evidence and higher confidence in the accuracy of a memory decision, while slower responses suggest weaker evidence and decision uncertainty or doubt. This relationship is supported by an extensive literature (e.g., Starns 2021; Robinson et al., 1997; Ratcliff & Murdock, 1976; amongst others). Importantly, distinguishing between high and low confidence choices in a memory task serves the purpose of differentiating between particularly strong memory evidence (e.g., in associative cued recall, when remembering is particularly vivid) and weaker memory evidence. Separating low from high confidence responses based on participants’ reaction times was especially important in the current analyses, because previous research demonstrates that reaction times during cued recall tasks inversely correlate with hippocampal involvement (Heinbockel et al., 2024; Gagnon et al. 2019) and that stress-effects on human memory may be particularly pronounced for high-confidence memories (Gagnon et al., 2019).

      In response to the Reviewer 1’s comments, we have elaborated on our rationale for the distinction between short and long reaction times in the introduction, results, and methods. Please see page 4, lines 144 to 148:

      “We distinguished between responses with short and long reaction times indicative of high and low confidence responses because previous research showed that reaction times are inversely correlated with hippocampal memory involvement(58-60) and memory strength(61,62), and that high confidence memories associated with short reaction times may be particularly sensitive to stress effects(63).”

      On page 13, lines 520 to 523:

      “Reaction times in the Day 2 Memory cueing task revealed a trial-specific gradient in reactivation strength. Thus, we turned to single-trial analyses, differentiating Day 3 trials by short and long reaction times during memory cueing on Day 2 (median split), indicative of high vs. low memory confidence(58–60) and hippocampal reactivation(26,63).”

      And on page 26, lines 1046 to 1053:

      “Reaction times serve as a proxy for memory confidence and memory strength, with faster responses reflecting higher confidence/strength and slower responses suggesting greater uncertainty/weaker memory. The association between reaction times and memory confidence has been established by previous research(58–60), suggesting that the distinction between high from low confidence responses differentiates vividly recalled associations from decisions based on weaker memory evidence. Reaction times are further linked to hippocampal activity during recall tasks(26,53), and stress effects on memory are particularly pronounced for high-confidence memories(53).”

      With respect to behavioral data reporting, we agree that the critical median-split procedure was not sufficiently clear in the original manuscript. We elaborate on this important aspect of the analysis now on page 26, lines 1053 to 1057:

      “We conducted a median-split within each participant to categorize trials as fast vs. slow reaction time trials during Day 2 memory cueing. We conducted this split on the participant- and not group-level because there is substantial inter-individual variability in overall reaction times. This approach also results in an equal number of trials in the low and high confidence conditions.”

      We completely agree that the relevant post-hoc test should be corrected for multiple comparisons. Please note that all reported post-hoc tests had been Bonferroni-corrected already. We clarify this now by explicitly referring to corrected p-values (P<sub>corr</sub>) and indicate in the methods that P<sub>corr</sub> refers to Bonferroni-corrected p-values. (please see page 25, lines 1036 to 1038).

      We further agree that for a comprehensive overview of the behaviour in terms of memory performance and RTs, these data need to be provided for each group and experimental day. Therefore, we now extended Supplementary Table S1 to include descriptive indices of memory performance (hits, dprime) and RTs for each group for each day. Moreover, we now report ANOVAs for reaction times for each of the experimental days in the main text.

      The ANOVA for Day 1 is now reported on page 6, lines 200 to 204: “To test for potential group differences in reaction times for correctly remembered associations on Day 1, we fit a linear model including the factors Group and Cueing. Critically, we did not observe a significant Group x Cueing interaction, suggesting no RT difference between groups for later cued and not cued items (F(2,58) = 1.41, P = .258, η<sup>2</sup> = 0.01; Supplemental Table S1).”

      The ANOVA for Day 2 is now reported on page 7, lines 243 to 248: “To test for potential group differences in reaction times for correctly remembered associations on Day 2, we fit a linear model including the factors Group and Reaction time (slow/fast) following the subject specific median split. The model did not reveal any main effect or interaction including the factor Group (all Ps > .535; Supplemental Table S1), indicating that there was no RT difference between groups, nor between low and high RT trials in the groups.”

      The ANOVA for Day 3 is reported on page 13 lines 487 to 494: “To test for potential group differences in reaction times for correctly remembered associations on Day 3 we fit a linear model including the factors Group and Cueing. This model did not reveal any main effect or interaction including the factor Group (all Ps > .267), indicating that there was no average RT difference between groups. As expected we observed a main effect of the factor Cueing, indicating a significant difference of reaction times across groups between trials that were successfully cued and those not cued on Day 2 (F(2,58) = 153.07, P < .001, η<sup>2</sup> = 0.22; Supplemental Table S1).”

      (2) The authors should be clearer as to what their original hypotheses were, and why they did the experiment. Despite being a complex literature, I would have thought the hypotheses would be reconsolidation impairment by cortisol and enhancement by yohimbine. Here it is relevant to point out that - only when the reader gets to the Methods section - there is mention of a paper published by this group in 2024. In this publication, the authors used the same study design but administered a stress manipulation after Day 2 cued recall, instead of a pharmacological one. They did not find a difference in associative hit rate between stress and control groups, but - similar to the current manuscript - reported that post-retrieval stress disrupts subsequent remembering (Day 3 performance) depending on neural memory reinstatement during reactivation (specifically driven by the hippocampus and its correlation with neocortical areas).

      Instead of using these results, and other human studies, to motivate the current work, reference is made to a recent animal study: Line 169 "Building on recent findings in rodents (Khalaf et al. 2018), we hypothesized that the effects of post-retrieval noradrenergic and glucocorticoid activation would critically depend on the reinstatement of the neural event representation during retrieval". It is difficult to follow that a rodent study using contextual fear conditioning and examining single neuron activity to remote fear recall and extinction would be relevant enough to motivate a hypothesis for a human psychopharmacological study on emotionally neutral paired associates.

      We agree that our recent publication utilizing a very similar experimental design including three days is highly relevant in the context of the current study and we now refer to this recent study earlier in our manuscript. Please see page 3, lines 89 to 94:  

      “Recently, we showed a detrimental impact of post-retrieval stress on subsequent memory that was contingent upon reinstatement dynamics in the Hippocampus, VTC and PCC during memory reactivation26. While this study provided initial insights into the potential brain mechanisms involved in the effects of post-retrieval stress on subsequent memory, the underlying neuroendocrine mechanisms remained elusive.”

      Moreover, we explicitly state our hypothesis regarding the neural mechanism, with reference to our recent work, on page 5, lines 166 to 169:

      “Building on our recent findings in humans(26) as well as current insights from rodents(47), we hypothesized that the effects of post-retrieval noradrenergic and glucocorticoid activation would critically depend on the reinstatement of the neural event representation during retrieval.”

      Concerning the potential direction of the effects of post-retrieval cortisol and noradrenaline, the literature is indeed mixed with partially contradicting results, which made it, in our view, difficult to derive a clear hypothesis of potentially opposite effects of cortisol and yohimbine. We summarize the relevant evidence in the introduction on pages 3 to 4, lines 100 to 113:

      “Some studies, using emotional recognition memory or fear conditioning in healthy humans, suggest enhancing effects of post-retrieval glucocorticoids on subsequent memory(30,31). However, rodent studies on neutral recognition memory(21), fear conditioning(32), as well as evidence from humans on episodic recognition memory(33) report impairing effects of glucocorticoid receptor activation on post-retrieval memory dynamics. For noradrenaline, post-retrieval blockade of noradrenergic activity impairs putative reconsolidation or future memory accessibility in human fear conditioning(34), as well as drug (alcohol) memory(35) and spatial memory in rodents(36). However, this effect is not consistently observed in human studies on fear conditioning(40), speaking anxiety(37), inhibitory avoidance(39), traumatic mental imagination (PTSD patients)(38), and might depend on the arousal state of the individual(21) or the exact timing of drug administration as suggested by studies in humans(41) and rodents(42). Thus, while there is evidence that glucocorticoid and noradrenergic activation after retrieval can affect subsequent memory, the direction of these effects remains elusive.”

      In addition to these reviewer comments and in response to the eLife assessment, we would like to emphasize that the present findings are in our view not only relevant for a subfield but may be of considerable interest for researchers from various fields, beyond experimental memory research, including Neurobiology, Psychiatry, Clinical Psychology, Educational Psychology, or Law Psychology. We highlight the relevance of the topic and our findings now more explicitly in the introduction and discussion. Please see page 3:

      “The dynamics of memory after retrieval, whether through reconsolidation of the original trace or interference with retrieval-related traces, have fundamental implications for educational settings, eyewitness testimony, or mental disorders(5,11,12). In clinical contexts, post-retrieval changes of memory might offer a unique opportunity to retrospectively modify or render less accessible unwanted memories, such as those associated with posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) or anxiety disorders(13–15). Given these potential far reaching implications, understanding the mechanisms underlying post-retrieval dynamics of memory is essential.”

      On page 17:

      “Upon their retrieval, memories can become sensitive to modification(1,2). Such post-retrieval changes in memory may be fundamental for adaptation to volatile environments and have critical implications for eyewitness testimony, clinical or educational contexts(5,11–15). Yet, the brain mechanisms involved in the dynamics of memory after retrieval are largely unknown, especially in humans.”

      And on page 19:

      “Beyond their theoretical relevance, these findings may have relevant implications for attempts to employ post-retrieval manipulations to modify unwanted memories in anxiety disorders or PTSD(97,98). Specifically, the present findings suggest that such interventions may be particularly promising if combined with cognitive or brain stimulation techniques ensuring a sufficient memory reactivation.“

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Related to major issue 2 in the Public Review. In the introduction, it would be helpful to be specific about the type of memory being probed in the different studies referenced (episodic vs conditioning). For the former, please make it clear whether stimuli to be remembered were emotional or neutral, and for which stimulus class drug effects were observed. This is particularly important given that in the first paragraph, you describe memory reactivation in the context of traumatic memories via mention of PTSD. It would also be helpful to know to which species you refer. For example, in line 115, "timing of drug administration..." a rodent and a human study are cited.

      We completely agree that these aspects are important. We have therefore rewritten the corresponding paragraph in the introduction to clarify the type of memory probed, the emotionality of the stimuli and the species tested. Please see pages 3 to 4, lines 100 to 113:

      “Some studies, using emotional recognition memory or fear conditioning in healthy humans, suggest enhancing effects of post-retrieval glucocorticoids on subsequent memory(30,31). However, rodent studies on neutral recognition memory(21), fear conditioning(32), as well as evidence from humans on episodic recognition memory(33) report impairing effects of glucocorticoid receptor activation on post-retrieval memory dynamics. For noradrenaline, post-retrieval blockade of noradrenergic activity impairs putative reconsolidation or future memory accessibility in human fear conditioning(34), as well as drug (alcohol) memory(35) and spatial memory in rodents(36). However, this effect is not consistently observed in human studies on fear conditioning(40), speaking anxiety(37), inhibitory avoidance(39), traumatic mental imagination (PTSD patients)(38), and might depend on the arousal state of the individual(21) or the exact timing of drug administration as suggested by studies in humans(41) and rodents(42). Thus, while there is evidence that glucocorticoid and noradrenergic activation after retrieval can affect subsequent memory, the direction of these effects remains elusive.”

      (2) The Bos 2014 reference appears incorrect. I think you mean the Frontiers paper of the same year.

      Thank you for noticing this mistake, which has been corrected.

      (3) Line 734 "The study employed a fully crossed, placebo-controlled, double-blind, between-subjects design". What is a fully crossed design?

      A fully-crossed design refers to studies in which all possible combinations of multiple between-subjects factors are implemented. However, because the factor reactivation/cueing was manipulated within-subject in the present study and there is only one between-subjects factor (group/drug), “fully-crossed” may be misleading here. We removed it from the manuscript.

      (4) Supplemental Table S3. Are these ordered in terms of significance? A t- or Z-value for each cluster (either of the peak or a summed value) would be helpful.

      We agree that the ordering of the clusters was not clearly described. In the revised Supplemental Table S3, we have now added a column with the cluster-peak specific T-values and added an explanation in the table caption: “Depicted clusters are ordered by cluster-peak T-values.”

      (5) Please provide the requested memory performance and reaction time data, and relevant group comparisons.

      In response to general comment #1 above, we now provide all relevant accuracy and reaction time data for all groups and experimental days in the revised Supplemental Table S1. Moreover, we now report the relevant group comparisons in the main text on page 6, lines 200 to 204, on page 7, lines 243 to 248, and on page 13, lines 487 to 494.

      (6) Please rewrite the introduction with specific hypotheses, mention your recent results published in Science Advances, and attend to suggestions made in the first comment above.

      We have rewritten parts of the introduction to make the link to our recent publication clearer and to clarify the types of memories and species tested, as suggested by the reviewer (please see pages 3 to 4, lines 100 to 113). Moreover, we explicitly state our hypothesis regarding the neural mechanism on page 5, lines 166 to 169:

      “Building on our recent findings in humans(26) as well as current insights from rodents(47), we hypothesized that the effects of post-retrieval noradrenergic and glucocorticoid activation would critically depend on the reinstatement of the neural event representation during retrieval.”

      In terms of the direction of the potential cortisol and yohimbine effects, we have elaborated on the relevant literature, which in our view does not allow a clear prediction regarding the nature of the drug effects. We have made this explicit by stating that “… while there is evidence that glucocorticoid and noradrenergic activation after retrieval can affect subsequent memory, the direction of these effects remains elusive.” (please see page 4, lines 111 to 113). It would be, in our view, inappropriate to retrospectively add another, more specific “hypothesis”.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors aimed to investigate how noradrenergic and glucocorticoid activity after retrieval influence subsequent memory recall with a 24-hour interval, by using a controlled three-day fMRI study involving pharmacological manipulation. They found that noradrenergic activity after retrieval selectively impairs subsequent memory recall, depending on hippocampal and cortical reactivation during retrieval.

      Overall, there are several significant strengths of this well-written manuscript.

      Strengths:

      (1) The study is methodologically rigorous, employing a well-structured three-day experimental design that includes fMRI imaging, pharmacological interventions, and controlled memory tests.

      (2) The use of pharmacological agents (i.e., hydrocortisone and yohimbine) to manipulate glucocorticoid and noradrenergic activity is a significant strength.

      (3) The clear distinction between online and offline neural reactivation using MVPA and RSA approaches provides valuable insights into how memory dynamics are influenced by noradrenergic and glucocorticoid activity distinctly.

      We thank the reviewer for these very positive and encouraging remarks.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) One potential limitation is the reliance on distinct pharmacodynamics of hydrocortisone and yohimbine, which may complicate the interpretation of the results.

      We agree that the pharmacodynamics of hydrocortisone and yohimbine are different. However, we took these pharmacodynamics into account when designing the experiment and have made an effort to accurately track the indicators for noradrenergic arousal and glucocorticoids across the experiment. As shown in Figure 2, these indicators confirm that both drugs are active within the time window of approximately 40-90 minutes after reactivation. This time window corresponds to the proposed reconsolidation window, which is assumed to open around 10 minutes post-reactivation and to remain open for a few hours (approximately 90 minutes; Monfils & Holmes, 2018; Lee et al., 2017; Monfils et al., 2009).

      We have now acknowledged the distinct pharmacodynamics of hydrocortisone and yohimbine on page 21, lines 845 to 847: “We note that yohimbine and hydrocortisone follow distinct pharmacodynamics(104,105), yet selected the administration timing to ensure that both substances are active within the relevant post-retrieval time window.”

      In the results section, on page 11, lines 437 to 439, we further emphasize this differential dynamic: “Our data demonstrate that, despite the distinct pharmacodynamics of CORT and YOH, both substances are active within the time window that is critical for potential reconsolidation effects(3,4,43).”

      (2) Another point related above, individual differences in pharmacological responses, physiological and cortisol measures may contribute to memory recall on Day 3.

      The administered drugs elicit a pronounced adrenergic and glucocorticoid response, respectively. Specifically, the cortisol levels reached by 20mg of hydrocortisone correspond to those observed after a significant stressor exposure. Moreover, individual variation in stress system activation following drug intake tends to be less pronounced than in response to a natural stressor. Nevertheless, we fully agree that individual factors, such as metabolism or body weight, can influence the drug's action.

      We therefore re-analysed the reported Day 3 models, now including individual measures of baseline-to-peak changes in cortisol and systolic blood pressure, respectively. We report these additional analyses in the supplement and refer the interested reader to these analyses on page 15, lines 580 to 586:

      “As individual factors, such as metabolism or body weight, can influence the drug's action, we ran an additional analysis in which we included individual (baseline-to-peak) differences in salivary cortisol and (systolic) blood pressure, respectively. This analysis did not show any group by baseline-to-peak difference interaction suggesting that the observed memory effects were mainly driven by the pharmacological intervention group per se and less by individual variation in responses to the drug (see Supplemental Results).”

      And in the Supplemental Results:

      “To account for individual differences in cortisol responses after pill intake, we fit additional GLMMs predicting Day 3 subsequent memory of cued and correct trials including the factors Individual baseline-to-peak cortisol and Group. Doing so allowed us to account for variation in Day 3 performance, which might have resulted from within-group variation in cortisol responses, in particular in the CORT group. Importantly, none of the models predicting Day 3 memory performance by Day 2 cortisol-increase and Group, median-split RTs (high/low), hippocampal activity and RTs, or hippocampal activity and VTC category reinstatement revealed a significant group x baseline-to-peak cortisol interaction (all Ps > .122). These results suggest that inter-individual differences in cortisol responses did not have a significant impact on subsequent memory, beyond the influence of group per se. The same analyses were repeated for systolic blood pressure employing GLMMs predicting Day 3 subsequent memory of cued and correct trials including the factors Individual baseline-to-peak systolic blood pressure and Group to account for variation in Day 3 performance, which might have resulted from within-group variation in blood pressure response, in particular in the YOH group. While the model predicting Day 3 memory performance revealed a significant Individual baseline-to-peak systolic blood pressure × Group × median-split RTs (high/low) interaction (β = -0.05 ± 0.02, z = -2.04, P = .041, R<sup>2</sup><sub>conditional</sub> = 0.01), post-hoc slope tests, however, did not show any significant difference between groups (all P<sub>Corr</sub> > .329). The remaining models including hippocampal activity and RTs, or hippocampal activity and VTC category reinstatement did not reveal a significant Group × Individual baseline-to-peak systolic blood pressure interaction (all Ps > .101). These results suggest that inter-individual differences in systolic blood pressure responses did not have a significant impact on subsequent memory, beyond the influence of group per se.”

      Although we acknowledge that our study may not have been sufficiently powered for an analysis of individual differences, these data suggest that our memory effects were mainly driven by the pharmacological intervention group per se and less by individual variation in responses. It is to be noted, however, that all participants of the respective groups showed a pronounced increase in cortisol concentrations (on average > 1000% in the CORT group) and autonomic arousal (on average > 10% in the YOH group), respectively. These increases appeared to be sufficient to drive the observed memory effects, irrespective of some individual variation in the magnitude of the response.

      (3) Median-splitting approach for reaction times and hippocampal activity should better be justified.

      Reaction times are well established proxies (correlates) of memory strength and memory confidence in previous research, as they reflect cognitive processes involved in retrieving information. Faster reaction times indicate stronger mnemonic evidence and higher confidence in the accuracy of a memory decision, while slower responses suggest weaker evidence and decision uncertainty or doubt. This relationship is supported by an extensive literature (e.g., Starns 2021; Robinson et al., 1997; Ratcliff & Murdock, 1976; amongst others). Importantly, distinguishing between high and low confidence choices in a memory task serves the purpose to differentiating between particularly strong memory evidence (e.g., is associative cued recall, when remembering is particularly vivid) and weaker memory evidence. Separating low from high confidence responses based on participants’ reaction times was especially important in the current analyses, because previous research demonstrates that reaction times during cued recall tasks inversely correlate with hippocampal involvement  Heinbockel et al., 2024; Gagnon et al. 2019) and that stress-effects on human memory may be particularly pronounced for high-confidence memories (Gagnon et al., 2019).

      In response to the Reviewer comments, we have elaborated on our rationale for the distinction between short and long reaction times in the introduction, results, and methods. Please see page 4, lines 144 to 148:

      “We distinguished between responses with short and long reaction times indicative of high and low confidence responses because previous research showed that reaction times are inversely correlated with hippocampal memory involvement(58–60) and memory strength(61,62), and that high confidence memories associated with short reaction times may be particularly sensitive to stress effects(63).”

      On page 13, lines 520 to 523:

      “Reaction times in the Day 2 Memory cueing task revealed a trial-specific gradient in reactivation strength. Thus, we turned to single-trial analyses, differentiating Day 3 trials by short and long reaction times during memory cueing on Day 2 (median split), indicative of high vs. low memory confidence(58–60) and hippocampal reactivation(26,63).”

      And on page 26, lines 1046 to 1053:

      “Reaction times serve as a proxy for memory confidence and memory strength, with faster responses reflecting higher confidence/strength and slower responses suggesting greater uncertainty/weaker memory. The association between reaction times and memory confidence has been established by previous research(58–60), suggesting that the distinction between high from low confidence responses differentiates vividly recalled associations from decisions based on weaker memory evidence. Reaction times are further linked to hippocampal activity during recall tasks(26,53), and stress effects on memory are particularly pronounced for high-confidence memories(53).”

      We agree that the critical median-split procedure was not sufficiently clear in the original manuscript. We elaborate on this important aspect of the analysis now on page 26, lines 1053 to 1057:

      “We conducted a median-split within each participant to categorize trials as slow vs. fast reaction time trials during Day 2 memory cueing. We chose to conduct this split on the participant- and not group-level because there is substantial inter-individual variability in overall reaction times and to retain an equal number of trials in the low and high confidence conditions.”

      In addition to these reviewer comments and in response to the eLife assessment, we would like to emphasize that the present findings are in our view not only relevant for a subfield but may be of considerable interest for researchers from various fields, beyond experimental memory research, including Neurobiology, Psychiatry, Clinical Psychology, Educational Psychology, or Law Psychology. We highlight the relevance of the topic and our findings now more explicitly in the introduction and discussion. Please see page 3:

      “The dynamics of memory after retrieval, whether through reconsolidation of the original trace or interference with retrieval-related traces, have fundamental implications for educational settings, eyewitness testimony, or mental disorders5,11,12. In clinical contexts, post-retrieval changes of memory might offer a unique opportunity to retrospectively modify or render less accessible unwanted memories, such as those associated with posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) or anxiety disorders(13–15). Given these potential far reaching implications, understanding the mechanisms underlying post-retrieval dynamics of memory is essential.”

      On page 17:

      “Upon their retrieval, memories can become sensitive to modification(1,2). Such post-retrieval changes in memory may be fundamental for adaptation to volatile environments and have critical implications for eyewitness testimony, clinical or educational contexts(5,11–15), Yet, the brain mechanisms involved in the dynamics of memory after retrieval are largely unknown, especially in humans.”

      And on page 19:

      “Beyond their theoretical relevance, these findings may have relevant implications for attempts to employ post-retrieval manipulations to modify unwanted memories in anxiety disorders or PTSD(97,98). Specifically, the present findings suggest that such interventions may be particularly promising if combined with cognitive or brain stimulation techniques ensuring a sufficient memory reactivation.“

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      My comments and/or questions for the authors to improve this well-written manuscript.

      (1) This study identifies the modulatory role of the hippocampus and VTC in the effects of norepinephrine on subsequent memory. Are there functional interactions between these ROIs and other brain regions that could be wise to consider for a more comprehensive understanding of the underlying neural mechanisms?

      We agree that functional interactions of hippocampus and VTC and other regions that were active during Day 2 memory cueing are relevant for our understanding of the underlying mechanisms. We therefore now performed connectivity analyses using general psycho-physiological interaction analysis (gPPI; as implemented in SPM) and report the results of this analysis on page 16, lines 635 to 644, and added Supplemental Table S4 including gPPI statistics.

      “We conducted general psycho-physiological interaction analysis (gPPI) analyses on the Day 2 memory cueing task (remembered – forgotten), which revealed that successful cueing was accompanied by significant functional connectivity between the left hippocampus, VTC, PCC and MPFC (see Supplemental Table S4). However, using these connectivity estimates to predict Day 3 subsequent memory performance (dprime) via regression did not reveal any significant Group × Connectivity interactions, indicating that the pharmacological manipulation (i.e. noradrenergic stimulation) did not modulate subsequent memory based on functional connectivity during memory cueing (all P<sub>Corr</sub> > .228). The same pattern of results was observed when including single trial beta estimates from multiple ROIs during memory cueing to predict Day 3 memory (all interaction effects P<sub>Corr</sub> > .288).”

      (2) In theory, noradrenergic activity would have a profound impact on activity in widespread brain regions that are closely related to memory function. It would be interesting to know other possible effects beyond the hippocampus and VTC.

      We agree and included in our analysis additional ROIs beyond the HC and VTC; we now report these explorative results on page 16, lines 616 to 633:

      “Beyond hippocampal and VTC activity during memory cueing (Day 2), we exploratively reanalysed the GLMMs predicting Day 3 memory performance including the PCC, which was relevant during memory cueing in the current study and in our previous work(26).  Predicting Day 3 memory performance by the factors Group and Single trial beta activity during memory cueing in the PCC did not reveal a significant interaction (P<sub>Corr</sub>  = 1); adding the factor Reaction time to the model also did not result in a significant interaction (P<sub>Corr</sub> = 1). We also included the Medial Prefrontal Cortex (MPFC) to predict Day 3 memory performance, as the MPFC has been shown to be sensitive to noradrenergic modulation in previous work(75). Predicting Day 3 memory performance by the factors Group and Single trial beta activity during memory cueing in the MPFC did not reveal a significant interaction (P<sub>Corr</sub>  = 1); adding the factor Reaction time to the model also did not result in a significant interaction (P<sub>Corr</sub> = 1), which indicates that the MPFC was not modulated by either pharmacological intervention. Finally, we investigated memory cueing from all remaining ROIs that were significantly activated during the Day 2 memory cueing task (Day 2 whole-brain analysis; correct-incorrect; Supplemental Table S3). We again fit GLMMs predicting Day 3 memory performance by the factors Group and Single trial beta activity during memory cueing. Again, we did not observe any significant interaction effect any of the ROIs (all interaction P<sub>Corr</sub> > .060) and these results did not change when adding the factor Reaction time to the respective models (all  P<sub>Corr</sub> > .075).”

      (3) There are substantial individual differences in pharmacological responses, physiological and cortisol measures, as shown in Figure 3A&B. If such individual differences are taken into account, are there any potential effects on subsequent recall on Day 3 pertaining to the hydrocortisone group?

      In response to this comment (and the General comment #1 of this reviewer), we now re-analyzed the respective models including individual measures of baseline-to-peak cortisol and systolic blood pressure.

      We re-analysed the reported Day 3 models, now including individual measures of baseline-to-peak changes in cortisol and systolic blood pressure, respectively. We report these additional analyses in the supplement and refer the interested reader to these analyses on page 15, lines 580 to 586:

      “As individual factors, such as metabolism or body weight, can influence the drug's action, we ran an additional analysis in which we included individual (baseline-to-peak) differences in salivary cortisol and (systolic) blood pressure, respectively. This analysis did not show any group by baseline-to-peak difference interaction suggesting that the observed memory effects were mainly driven by the pharmacological intervention group per se and less by individual variation in responses to the drug (see Supplemental Results).”

      And in the Supplemental Results:

      “To account for individual differences in cortisol responses after pill intake, we fit additional GLMMs predicting Day 3 subsequent memory of cued and correct trials including the factors Individual baseline-to-peak cortisol and Group. Doing so allowed us to account for variation in Day 3 performance, which might have resulted from within-group variation in cortisol responses, in particular in the CORT group. Importantly, none of the models predicting Day 3 memory performance by Day 2 cortisol-increase and Group, median-split RTs (high/low), hippocampal activity and RTs, or hippocampal activity and VTC category reinstatement revealed a significant group x baseline-to-peak cortisol interaction (all Ps > .122). These results suggest that inter-individual differences in cortisol responses did not have a significant impact on subsequent memory, beyond the influence of group per se. The same analyses were repeated for systolic blood pressure employing GLMMs predicting Day 3 subsequent memory of cued and correct trials including the factors Individual baseline-to-peak systolic blood pressure and Group to account for variation in Day 3 performance, which might have resulted from within-group variation in blood pressure response, in particular in the YOH group. While the model predicting Day 3 memory performance revealed a significant Individual baseline-to-peak systolic blood pressure × Group × median-split RTs (high/low) interaction (β = -0.05 ± 0.02, z = -2.04, P = .041, R<sup>2</sup><sub>conditional</sub> = 0.01), post-hoc slope tests, however, did not show any significant difference between groups (all P<sub>Corr</sub> > .329). The remaining models including hippocampal activity and RTs, or hippocampal activity and VTC category reinstatement did not reveal a significant Group × Individual baseline-to-peak systolic blood pressure interaction (all Ps > .101). These results suggest that inter-individual differences in systolic blood pressure responses did not have a significant impact on subsequent memory, beyond the influence of group per se.”

      (4) Median-splitting approach for reaction times and hippocampal activity should better be justified.

      Reaction times are well established proxies (correlates) of memory strength and memory confidence in previous research, as they reflect cognitive processes involved in retrieving information. Faster reaction times indicate stronger mnemonic evidence and higher confidence in the accuracy of a memory decision, while slower responses suggest weaker evidence and decision uncertainty or doubt. This relationship is supported by an extensive literature (e.g., Starns 2021; Robinson et al., 1997; Ratcliff & Murdock, 1976; amongst others). Importantly, distinguishing between high and low confidence choices in a memory task serves the purpose to differentiating between particularly strong memory evidence (e.g., is associative cued recall, when remembering is particularly vivid) and weaker memory evidence. Separating low from high confidence responses based on participants’ reaction times was especially important in the current analyses, because previous research demonstrates that reaction times during cued recall tasks inversely correlate with hippocampal involvement ( Heinbockel et al., 2024; Gagnon et al. 2019) and that stress-effects on human memory may be particularly pronounced for high-confidence memories (Gagnon et al., 2019).

      In response to the Reviewer comments, we have elaborated on our rationale for the distinction between short and long reaction times in the introduction, results, and methods. Please see page 4, lines 144 to 148:

      “We distinguished between responses with short and long reaction times indicative of high and low confidence responses because previous research showed that reaction times are inversely correlated with hippocampal memory involvement(58–60) and memory strength(61,62), and that high confidence memories associated with short reaction times may be particularly sensitive to stress effects(63).”

      On page 13, lines 520 to 523:

      “Reaction times in the Day 2 Memory cueing task revealed a trial-specific gradient in reactivation strength. Thus, we turned to single-trial analyses, differentiating Day 3 trials by short and long reaction times during memory cueing on Day 2 (median split), indicative of high vs. low memory confidence(58–60) and hippocampal reactivation(26,63).”

      And on page 26, lines 1046 to 1053:

      “Reaction times serve as a proxy for memory confidence and memory strength, with faster responses reflecting higher confidence/strength and slower responses suggesting greater uncertainty/weaker memory. The association between reaction times and memory confidence has been established by previous research(58–60), suggesting that the distinction between high from low confidence responses differentiates vividly recalled associations from decisions based on weaker memory evidence. Reaction times are further linked to hippocampal activity during recall tasks(26,53), and stress effects on memory are particularly pronounced for high-confidence memories(53).”

      Minor comments:

      (5) Please include the full names of key abbreviations in the figure legends, such as "ass.cat.hit" and among others.

      We now include the full names of key abbreviations in all figure legends (e.g., ass.cat.hit = associative category hit).

      (6) Please introduce various metrics used in the study to aid readers in better understanding the measurements they utilized.

      We agree that various measures that were included in our analyses had not been described clearly enough before, especially concerning the multivariate analyses. We therefore added short explanations across the results section.

      Page 8, lines 279 to 280: “Classifier accuracy is derived from the sum of correct predictions the trained classifier made in the test-set, relative to the total amount of predictions.”

      Page 8, lines 290 to 292:  “Neural reinstatement reflects the extent to which a neural activity pattern (i.e., for objects) that was present during encoding is reactivated during retrieval (e.g., memory cueing).”

      Page 8, lines 299 to 301:  “The logits here reflect the log-transformed trial-wise probability of a pattern either representing a scene or an object.”

      Page 10, lines 378 to 380:  “Beyond category-level reinstatement, we assessed event-level memory trace reinstatement from initial encoding (Day 1) to memory cueing (Day 2), via RSA, correlating neural patterns in each region (hippocampus, VTC, and PCC) across days.”

      (7) Please explain what the different colors represent in Figures 5B and 5C to avoid confusion. It would be good to indicate significant differences in the figures if applicable.

      We now added line legends to the figure and also the caption to clarify what exactly is depicted. We added asterisks to mark significant differences.

      References:

      Monfils, M. H., Cowansage, K. K., Klann, E., & LeDoux, J. E. (2009). Extinction-reconsolidation boundaries: key to persistent attenuation of fear memories. science324(5929), 951-955.

      Monfils, M. H., & Holmes, E. A. (2018). Memory boundaries: opening a window inspired by reconsolidation to treat anxiety, trauma-related, and addiction disorders. The Lancet Psychiatry5(12), 1032-1042.

      Lee, J. L. C., Nader, K. & Schiller, D. An Update on Memory Reconsolidation Updating. Trends Cogn. Sci. 21, 531–545 (2017).

      Radley, J. J., Williams, B., & Sawchenko, P. E. (2008). Noradrenergic innervation of the dorsal medial prefrontal cortex modulates hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal responses to acute emotional stress. Journal of Neuroscience28(22), 5806-5816.

      Heinbockel, H., Wagner, A. D., & Schwabe, L. (2024). Post-retrieval stress impairs subsequent memory depending on hippocampal memory trace reinstatement during reactivation. Science Advances10(18), eadm7504.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      We thank Reviewer #1 for their thoughtful assessment. We especially agree that AVI-4206 will be a valuable tool to help understand the host immune response to viral infection.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      We thank Reviewer #2 for their comments and will address PARP9/14 selectivity with in vitro experiments and alignments/modeling. For ADP-ribosylation of PARP14, we will attempt experiments patterned after Kar et al, EMBO Journal, 2024, but note that detection of ADPr by IF and western has been relatively inconsistent and detection-reagent dependent in our hands. Regardless of the outcome, we will expand the discussion of the prior literature on this point.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      We thank Reviewer #3 for their comments, especially noting that we had the “chutzpah” to go for the in vivo experiment. We share the concern about potential off target effects, which is why we prioritized so many selectivity experiments prior to testing. Ongoing chemistry efforts are focused on developing next-generation inhibitors that are orally bioavailable, but this work is in its early stages.

    1. Author response:

      We thank the reviewers for the thoughtful comments, and we hope to address these issues in a future revision. We will clarify that chaos only serves to generate barcodes, and show that once they are formed and assigned the memory mechanism is stable to initial conditions.  We will also clarify the model's assumptions and its connections to indexing theory and to experimental results.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Review: 

      Summary: 

      The authors present a new application of the high-content image-based morphological profiling Cell Painting (CP) to single cell type classification in mixed heterogeneous induced pluripotent stem cell-derived mixed neural cultures. Machine learning models were trained to classify single cell types according to either "engineered" features derived from the image or from the raw CP multiplexed image. The authors systematically evaluated experimental (e.g., cell density, cell types, fluorescent channels) and computational (e.g., different models, different cell regions) parameters and convincingly demonstrated that focusing on the nucleus and its surroundings contain sufficient information for robust and accurate cell type classification. Models that were trained on mono-cultures (i.e., containing a single cell type) could generalize for cell type prediction in mixed co-cultures, and to describe intermediate states of the maturation process of iPSC-derived neural progenitors to differentiation neurons.

      Strengths:

      Automatically identifying single cell types in heterogeneous mixed cell populations hold great promise to characterize mixed cell populations and to discover new rules of spatial organization and cell-cell communication. Although the current manuscript focuses on the application of quality control of iPSC cultures, the same approach can be extended to a wealth of other applications including in depth study of the spatial context. The simple and high-content assay democratizes use and enables adoption by other labs.

      The manuscript is supported by comprehensive experimental and computational validations that raises the bar beyond the current state of the art in the field of highcontent phenotyping and makes this manuscript especially compelling. These include (i) Explicitly assessing replication biases (batch effects); (ii) Direct comparison of featurebased (a la cell profiling) versus deep-learning-based classification (which is not trivial/obvious for the application of cell profiling); (iii) Systematic assessment of the contribution of each fluorescent channel; (iv) Evaluation of cell-density dependency; (v) explicit examination of mistakes in classification; (vi) Evaluating the performance of different spatial contexts around the cell/nucleus; (vii) generalization of models trained on cultures containing a single cell type (mono-cultures) to mixed co-cultures; (viii) application to multiple classification tasks.

      Comments on latest version:

      I have consulted with Reviewer #3 and both of us were impressed by revised manuscript, especially by the clear and convincing evidence regarding the nucleocentric model use of the nuclear periphery and its benefit for the case of dense cultures. However, there are two issues that are incompletely addressed (see below). Until these are resolved, the "strength of evidence" was elevated to "compelling".

      First, the analysis of the patch size is not clearly indicating that the 12-18um range is a critical factor (Fig. 4E). On the contrary, the performance seems to be not very sensitive to the patch size, which is actually a desired property for a method. Still, Fig. 4B convincingly shows that the nucleocentric model is not sensitive to the culture density, while the other models are. Thus, the authors can adjust their text saying that the nucleocentric approach is not sensitive to the patch size and that the patch size is selected to capture the nucleus and some margins around it, making it less prone to segmentation errors in dense cultures.

      We agree that there is a significant tolerance to different patch sizes, and have therefore reformulated the conclusion as suggested in the results and the discussion sections (page 10 and 16). As very large patch sizes (>40µm) do increase the variability of the predictions and the imbalance between recall and precision, we have left this observation in the results section, as it also motivates for using smaller patch sizes.  

      Second, the GitHub does not contain sufficient information to reproduce the analysis. Its current state is sparse with documentation that would make reproducing the work difficult. What versions of the software were used? Where should data be downloaded? The README contains references to many different argparse CLI arguments, but sparse details on what these arguments actually are, and which parameters the authors used to perform their analyses. Links to images are broken. Ideally, all of these details would be present, and the authors would include a step-by-step tutorial on how to reproduce their work. Fixing this will lead to an "exceptional" strength of evidence.

      We have added additional information to the GitHub to increase the reproducibility of the analysis.  

      • The README now contains additional documentation and more extensive explanations. A flowchart has been added, making the dataflow and order of analyses more clear.  

      • The accompanying dataset is 20GB in size and can be downloaded as a .zip-file from https://figshare.com/articles/dataset/Nucleocentric-Profiling/27141441?file=49522557. This file contains 2x480 raw images and a layout file.  

      • The used software versions are included in the manuscript in table 4. To increase the reproducibility, a Conda environment file (.yaml) has been added to the GitHub. This can be installed and contains the correct package versions.

      • The README now contains for each script and its arguments a short description on its meaning, on whether it is required or optional and its default setting.  

      • A step-by-step tutorial on the use of the test dataset has been included. This tutorial includes the arguments used to run the code from the command line terminal.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      There are no reference from the text to Fig. 2D and to Fig. 3C.

      This has been changed. The text has been added to the manuscript at page 6 (fig. 2D) and the reference to Fig. 3C has been included at page 8.

    1. Author response:

      We thank the reviewers for the constructive suggestions made in the Public Reviews and the Recommendations to Authors. We intend to address these comments in a revised manuscript as follows:

      (1) We will revise the text according to the reviewer suggestions with regards to specific RBM20-dependent mRNAs and providing more detailed explanations in results and discussion.

      (2) We will upload higher resolution images of several figures (resolution had been reduced to achieve lower file sizes) to address the comment regarding “data quality”.

      (3) We will include data on eCLIP control experiments.

      (4) We will add information on replication and new data for the western blot analysis.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Previous experimental studies demonstrated that membrane association drives avidity for several potent broadly HIV-neutralizing antibodies and its loss dramatically reduces neutralization. In this study, the authors present a tour de force analysis of molecular dynamics (MD) simulations that demonstrate how several HIV-neutralizing membrane-proximal external region (MPER)-targeting antibodies associate with a model lipid bilayer.

      First, the authors compared how three MPER antibodies, 4E10, PGZL1, and 10E8, associated with model membranes, constructed with two lipid compositions similar to native viral membranes. They found that the related antibodies 4E10 and PGZL1 strongly associate with a phospholipid near heavy chain loop 1, consistent with prior crystallographic studies. They also discovered that a previously unappreciated framework region between loops 2-3 in the 4E10/PGZL1 heavy chain contributes to membrane association. Simulations of 10E8, an antibody from a different lineage, revealed several differences from published X-ray structures. Namely, a phosphatidylcholine binding site was offset and includes significant interaction with a nearby framework region. The revised manuscript demonstrates that these lipid interactions are robust to alterations in membrane composition and rigidity. However, it does not address the reverse-that phospholipids known experimentally not to associate with these antibodies (if any such lipids exist) also fail to interact in MD simulations.

      Next, the authors simulate another MPER-targeting antibody, LN01, with a model HIV membrane either containing or missing an MPER antigen fragment within. Of note, LN01 inserts more deeply into the membrane when the MPER antigen is present, supporting an energy balance between the lowest energy conformations of LN01, MPER, and the complex. These simulations recapitulate lipid binding interactions solved in published crystallographic studies but also lead to the discovery of a novel lipid binding site the authors term the "Loading Site", which could guide future experiments with this antibody.

      The authors next established course-grained (CG) MD simulations of the various antibodies with model membranes to study membrane embedding. These simulations facilitated greater sampling of different initial antibody geometries relative to membrane. These CG simulations , which cannot resolve atomistic interactions, are nonetheless compelling because negative controls (ab 13h11, BSA) that should not associate with membrane indeed sample significantly less membrane.

      Distinct geometries derived from CG simulations were then used to initialize all-atom MD simulations to study insertion in finer detail (e.g., phospholipid association), which largely recapitulate their earlier results, albeit with more unbiased sampling. The multiscale model of an initial CG study with broad geometric sampling, followed by all-atom MD, provides a generalized framework for such simulations.

      Finally, the authors construct velocity pulling simulations to estimate the energetics of antibody membrane embedding. Using the multiscale modelling workflow to achieve greater geometric sampling, they demonstrate that their model reliably predicts lower association energetics for known mutations in 4E10 that disrupt lipid binding. However, the model does have limitations: namely, its ability to predict more subtle changes along a lineage-intermediate mutations that reduce lipid binding are indistinguishable from mutations that completely ablate lipid association. Thus, while large/binary differences in lipid affinity might be predictable, the use of this method as a generative model are likely more limited.

      The MD simulations conducted throughout are rigorous and the analysis are extensive, creative, and biologically inspired. Overall, these analyses provide an important mechanistic characterization of how broadly neutralizing antibodies associate with lipids proximal to membrane-associated epitopes to drive neutralization.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In this study, Maillie et al. have carried out a set of multiscale molecular dynamics simulations to investigate the interactions between the viral membrane and four broadly neutralizing antibodies that target the membrane proximal exposed region (MPER) of the HIV-1 envelope trimer. The simulation recapitulated in several cases the binding sites of lipid head groups that were observed experimentally by X-ray crystallography, as well as some new binding sites. These binding sites were further validated using a structural bioinformatics approach. Finally, steered molecular dynamics was used to measure the binding strength between the membrane and variants of the 4E10 and PGZL1 antibodies.

      The use of multiscale MD simulations allows for a detailed exploration of the system at different time and length scales. The combination of MD simulations and structural bioinformatics provides a comprehensive approach to validate the identified binding sites. Finally, the steered MD simulations offer quantitative insights into the binding strength between the membrane and bnAbs.

      While the simulations and analyses provide qualitative insights into the binding interactions, they do not offer a quantitative assessment of energetics. The coarse-grained simulations exhibit artifacts and thus require careful analysis.

      This study contributes to a deeper understanding of the molecular mechanisms underlying bnAb recognition of the HIV-1 envelope. The insights gained from this work could inform the design of more potent and broadly neutralizing antibodies.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor:

      We recommend the authors remove the figure and section related to bnAb LN01, perform additional analysis (e.g., further expanding on the differences in antibody binding in the presence or absence of antigen), and present this as a separate manuscript in a follow-up study.

      We consider the analysis of a bnAb with a transmembrane antigen and of LN01 as essential to the manuscript and novel results.  Study of LN01 provides many insights unique from the other MPER bnAbs in this study.  We agree further characterization of LN01 and bnAbs with transmembrane antigen or full-length Env are intriguing and necessary to complete the full mechanistic understanding of lipid-associated antibodies.  LN01 section in this paper is novel in the field and demonstrates the preliminary evidence motivating further work, which we agree are beyond the scope of this already long detailed study.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I appreciate the degree to which the authors responded to my previous points raised in the private review, including edits where I might have missed something in the manuscript or relevant literature. I imagine such a point-by-point response was quite onerous. Thank you also for balancing presentation/clarity with content/rigor considering the large information content of this manuscript; in silico results are inherently hard to present given the delicate balance between rigorous validation and novel information content. I apologize if I repeat points raised and addressed previously and commend the authors on their revised study, which is much improved in clarity; any additional revisions are of course entirely at your discretion.

      "...now having more diversity in lipid headgroup chemistries" references the wrong figure-it should be: Figure 2-figure supplement 2A-C. The incorrect figure is also referenced again several sentences down: "...relevant CDR and framework surface loops..."

      Thank you for pointing out this error. We have corrected figure references.

      "One shared conformational difference observed for these bnAbs the higher cholesterol bilayers was slightly more extensive and broader interaction profiles as well as modestly deeper embedding of the relevant CDR and framework surfaces loops" please rephrase

      Thank you for this suggestion.  We rephrased this for improved clarity and flow. 

      "These results bolster the feasibility for using all-atom MD as an in silico platform to explore differential phospholipid affinity at these sites (i.e., specificity studies) and influence on antibody preferred conformation as membrane composition and lipid chemistry are systematically varied" Please tone down these speculations-you have demonstrated that simulations are robust to different headgroup chemistries but have not provided evidence for the exclusion of lipids that are known not to associate with these antibodies.

      We rephrased this speculation to highlight the potential of this application. We also emphasize future studies that would be required to achieve this application in the following sentence.

      “These results motivate use of all-atom MD as an in silico approach for exploring differential phospholipid affinity at these sites…”

      Figure 2A: Specify which PDB entry corresponds to the displayed crystal structures in the main figure or caption.

      We clarified these PDB entries in the figure caption. 

      Check reference formatting in supplemental figures when generating VOR.

      I am not sure how relevant this might be to the claims of Figure 2-figure supplement 3, but AlphaFold3-based phospholigand docking might provide an additional orthogonal approach if relevant ligand(s) are available for such analysis (particularly for the newly proposed 10E8 POPC complex).

      Thank you for this suggestion.  AI/ML based prediction methods like AF3 and RoseTTAFold All-Atom (RFAA) are interesting new methods that have come since our initial submission.   We’ve decided these experiments are beyond the scope of this already long and detailed study. We have added a sentence suggesting use of these methods in future work.

      "We next studied bnAb LN01 to interrogate differences" --> this transition still reads a bit unclear. Why shift gears and change antibodies? Also, while you do go into its interactions both +/- antigen, there's no lead into the simulation initialization with and without antigen to guide the reader into the comparisons you will draw in the figure. Also, the order of information presentation is a bit strange, where the rationale for choosing a single monomeric helix is brought up in the middle of the paragraph instead of at the beginning of the section. In the next paragraph, it goes back to the initialization of the membrane composition again, which feels a bit disorganized-I do appreciate the unique challenge of having to weave through so much quality data! In fact, if you were to conduct simulations of membrane + antigen vs. membrane + LN01 vs. membrane + LN01 + antigen, I am tempted to say that this could be removed from this manuscript and flow better as a paper in and of itself.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion to improve the writing style.  We feel this section adds a lot of value to the manuscript, so we will keep it in the paper and improved the transition as well as rationale.  

      We selected to study the additional antibody LN01 and the monomeric MPER-TM antigen conformation because of the existing structural evidence available without additional creative model building.  This rationale has been updated in the new text.  

      We changd the order of information as suggested, moving the rationale for antigen fragment earlier in the paragraph followed by the background of the lipids sites from the crystal that can lead into simulation set-up.  We clarified the simulation initialization was similar for systems with and without antigen in the opening sentence of the paragraph

      "previously observed snorkeling and hydration of TM Arg686" --> Is this R696 (numbering could be different based on the particular Env)?

      Thank you for noting this typo, we have corrected the numbering.

      Potential font color issue with Figure 3-Figure supplement 1 B and part of A text-could be fixed in typesetting.

      The discussion reads very well. Is it possible to direct antibody maturation, even in an engineered context, towards membrane affinity without increasing immunogenic polyreactivity? This is mentioned very briefly and cited with ref 36, but I would be interested in the author's thoughts on this topic.

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful idea to explore in future work.  Our conclusion alludes to possibly artificially evolving membrane affinity studied by MD, as done in vitro by Nieva and co-workers.  Because the hypothetical nature, we’ve chosen not to elaborate on those ideas from this manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      To ensure reproducibility and facilitate further research, the authors should publicly deposit the code for running the MD simulations and analyses (e.g., on GitHub) along with the underlying data used in the study (e.g., on Zenodo.org).

      We appreciate the consideration for open-source code and analysis. Representative code and simulation trajectories were uploaded to the following repositories:

      https://github.com/cmaillie98/mper_bnAbs.git

      https://zenodo.org/records/13830877

      —-

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Previous experimental studies demonstrated that membrane association drives avidity for several potent broadly HIV-neutralizing antibodies and its loss dramatically reduces neutralization. In this study, the authors present a tour de force analysis of molecular dynamics (MD) simulations that demonstrate how several HIV-neutralizing membrane-proximal external region (MPER)-targeting antibodies associate with a model lipid bilayer.

      First, the authors compared how three MPER antibodies, 4E10, PGZL1, and 10E8, associated with model membranes, constructed with a lipid composition similar to the native virion. They found that the related antibodies 4E10 and PGZL1 strongly associate with a phospholipid near heavy chain loop 1, consistent with prior crystallographic studies. They also discovered that a previously unappreciated framework region between loops 2-3 in the 4E10/PGZL1 heavy chain contributes to membrane association. Simulations of 10E8, an antibody from a different lineage, revealed several differences from published X-ray structures. Namely, a phosphatidylcholine binding site was offset and includes significant interaction with a nearby framework region.

      Next, the authors simulate another MPER-targeting antibody, LN01, with a model HIV membrane either containing or missing an MPER antigen fragment within. Of note, LN01 inserts more deeply into the membrane when the MPER antigen is present, supporting an energy balance between the lowest energy conformations of LN01, MPER, and the complex. Additional contacts and conformational restraints imposed by ectodomain regions of the envelope glycoprotein, however, remain unaddressed-the size of such simulations likely runs into technical limitations including sampling and compute time.

      The authors next established course-grained (CG) MD simulations of the various antibodies with model membranes to study membrane embedding. These simulations facilitated greater sampling of different initial antibody geometries relative to membrane. Distinct geometries derived from CG simulations were then used to initialize all-atom MD simulations to study insertion in finer detail (e.g., phospholipid association), which largely recapitulate their earlier results, albeit with more unbiased sampling. The multiscale model of an initial CG study with broad geometric sampling, followed by all-atom MD, provides a generalized framework for such simulations.

      Finally, the authors construct velocity pulling simulations to estimate the energetics of antibody membrane embedding. Using the multiscale modelling workflow to achieve greater geometric sampling, they demonstrate that their model reliably predicts lower association energetics for known mutations in 4E10 that disrupt lipid binding. However, the model does have limitations: namely, its ability to predict more subtle changes along a lineage-intermediate mutations that reduce lipid binding are indistinguishable from mutations that completely ablate lipid association. Thus, while large/binary differences in lipid affinity might be predictable, the use of this method as a generative model are likely more limited.

      The MD simulations conducted throughout are rigorous and the analysis are extensive. However, given the large amount of data presented within the manuscript, the text would benefit from clearer subsections that delineate discrete mechanistic discoveries, particularly for experimentalists interested in antibody discovery and design. One area the paper does not address involves the polyreactivity associated with membrane binding antibodies-MD simulations and/or pulling velocity experiments with model membranes of different compositions, with and without model antigens, would be needed. Finally, given the challenges in initializing these simulations and their limitations, the text regarding their generalized use for discovery, rather than mechanism, could be toned down.

      Overall, these analyses provide an important mechanistic characterization of how broadly neutralizing antibodies associate with lipids proximal to membrane-associated epitopes to drive neutralization.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this study, Maillie et al. have carried out a set of multiscale molecular dynamics simulations to investigate the interactions between the viral membrane and four broadly neutralizing antibodies that target the membrane proximal exposed region (MPER) of the HIV-1 envelope trimer. The simulation recapitulated in several cases the binding sites of lipid head groups that were observed experimentally by X-ray crystallography, as well as some new binding sites. These binding sites were further validated using a structural bioinformatics approach. Finally, steered molecular dynamics was used to measure the binding strength between the membrane and variants of the 4E10 and PGZL1 antibodies.

      The conclusions from the paper are mostly well supported by the simulations, however, they remain very descriptive and the key findings should be better described and validated. In particular:

      It has been shown that the lipid composition of HIV membrane is rich in cholesterol [1], which accounts for almost 50% molar ratio. The authors use a very different composition and should therefore provide a reference. It has been shown for 4E10 that the change in lipid composition affects dynamics of the binding. The robustness of the results to changes of the lipid composition should also be reported.

      The real advantage of the multiscale approach (coarse grained (CG) simulation followed by a back-mapped all atom simulation) remains unclear. In most cases, the binding mode in the CG simulations seem to be an artifact.

      The results reported in this study should be better compared to available experimental data. For example how does the approach angle compare to cryo-EM structure of the bnAbs engaging with the MPER region, e.g. [2-3]? How do these results from this study compare to previous molecular dynamics studies, e.g.[4-5]?

      References<br /> (1) Brügger, Britta, et al. "The HIV lipidome: a raft with an unusual composition." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 103.8 (2006): 2641-2646.<br /> (2) Rantalainen, Kimmo, et al. "HIV-1 envelope and MPER antibody structures in lipid assemblies." Cell Reports 31.4 (2020).<br /> (3) Yang, Shuang, et al. "Dynamic HIV-1 spike motion creates vulnerability for its membrane-bound tripod to antibody attack." Nature Communications 13.1 (2022): 6393.<br /> (4) Carravilla, Pablo, et al. "The bilayer collective properties govern the interaction of an HIV-1 antibody with the viral membrane." Biophysical Journal 118.1 (2020): 44-56.<br /> (5) Pinto, Dora, et al. "Structural basis for broad HIV-1 neutralization by the MPER-specific human broadly neutralizing antibody LN01." Cell host & microbe 26.5 (2019): 623-637.

      Considering reviewer suggestions, we slightly reorganized the results section into specific sub-sections with headings and changed the order in which key results were presented to allow the subsequent analysis more accessible for readers.  Supplemental materials were redistributed into eLife format, having each supplemental item grouped to a corresponding main figure. Many slightly detail modifications were made to figures (mostly supplemental items) without changing their character, such as clearer axes labels or revised annotations within panels.

      The major additions within the results sections based on the reviews were:

      (1) An expanded the comparison between our simulation analyses to previous simulations and to existing cryo-EM structural evidence for MPER antibodies’ membrane orientation the context of full-length antigen, resulting in new supplemental figure panels.

      (2) New atomistic simulations of 10E8, PGZL1, and 4E10 evaluating the phospholipid binding predictions in a different lipid composition more closely modeling HIV membranes.

      Minor edits to the analyses and interpretations include:

      (1) Outlining the geometric components contributing to variance in substates after clustering the atomistic 10E8, 4E10, and PGZL1 simulations.

      (2) Better defining the variance and durability of membrane interactions within and across systems in the coarse grain methods section.

      (3) Removed interpretations in the original results sections regarding polyreactivity and energetics for MPER bnAbs that were not explicitly supported by data.   

      (4) More context of the prevenance of bnAb loop geometries in structural informatics section

      (5) Rationale for the choice of the continuous helix MPER-TM conformation in LN01-antigen conformations, and citations to previous gp41 TM simulations.

      (6) Removed language on the novelty of the coarse grain and steered pulling simulations as newly developed approaches; tempering the potential discriminating power and applications of those approaches, in light of their limitations.

      The discussion was revised to provide more novel context of the results within the field, including discussing direct relevance of the simulation methods for evaluating immune tolerance mechanisms and into antibody engineering.   We have shared custom scripts used for molecular dynamics analysis on github (https://github.com/cmaillie98/mper_bnAbs.git) and uploaded trajectories to a public repository hosted on Zenodo (https://zenodo.org/records/13830877).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Below, I provide an extensive list of minor edits associated with the text and figures for the authors to consider. I provide these with the hope of increasing the accessibility of the manuscript to broader audiences but leave changes to the discretion of the authors.

      Text/clarity

      Figure 1 main text

      The main text discussing Figure 1 is disorganized, making the analysis difficult to follow. I would suggest the following: moving the sentence, "4E10 and PG2L1 are structurally homologous" immediately after the paragraph discussing the simulation initiation. Then, add a sentence that directly compares their experimental affinity, neutralization, and polyreactivity of 4E10 and PG2L1 (later, an unintroduced idea pops up, "These patterns may in part explain 4E10's greater polyreactivity"). Next, lead into the discussion of the MD simulation data with something to the effect of: "Given these similarities, we first compared mechanisms of membrane insertion between 4E10 and PG2L1 to bolster confidence in our predictions". Later, the sentence "Across 4E10 and PGZL1 simulations, the bound lipid phosphates"

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion and we have restructured the beginning of the results to implement this style: to first introduce then discuss the comparative PGZL1 & 4E10 results, i.e. Figure 1 plus associated supplements.

      In the background and the introduction text leading up to Figure 1, CDR-H3 is discussed at length, however, the first figure focuses almost entirely on how CDR-H1 coordinates a lipid phosphate headgroup. Are there experimental mutations in this loop that do not affect affinity (e.g., to a soluble gp41 peptide), but do affect neutralization (like the WAWA mutation for CDR-H3, discussed later)?

      We have altered the Introduction (para 2) and Results (4E10/PGZL1 sub-section) to give more balanced discussion of CDRs H1 & H3.  That includes referencing experimental data addressing the reviewer’s question; a PGZL1 clone H4K3 where mutations to CDRH1 were introduced and shown have minimal impact on affinity to MPER peptide via ELISA and BLI, but those mutant bnAbs had significantly reduced neutralization efficacy (PMC6879610).

      The sentence "These phospholipid binding events were highly stable, typically persisting for hundreds of nanoseconds" should be moved down to immediately precede, "[However], in a PGZL1 simulation, we observed a". This would be a good place for a paragraph break following, "Thus, these bnABs constitutively", since this block of text is very long.

      Similarly, the sentence and parts of the section, "Likewise, the interactions coordinating the lipid phosphate oxygens at CDR-H1" more appropriately belongs immediately before or after the sentence, "Our simulations uncover the CDR-lipid interactions that are the most feasible".

      Thank you for the detailed guidance in reorganizing the Figure 1 results.  We followed the advice to directly compare 4E10 and PGZL1 results separately from 10E8, moving those sections of text appropriately.  New paragraph breaks were added to improve accessibility and flow of concepts throughout the Results.

      In the sentence, "our simulations uncover CDR-lipid interactions that are the most feasible and biologically relevant in the context of a full [HIV] lipid bilayer... validation to which of the many possible ions" à have you confidently determined lipid binding and positioning outside of the site validated in figure 1? Which site(s) are these referencing? The next two sentences then introduce two new ideas on the loop backbone stability then lead into lipid exchange, which is a bit jarring.

      We have adjusted the language concerning the putative ions/lipids electron density across the many PGZL1 and 4E10 crystal structures, and additionally make the explicit point that we confidently determined the lack of lipid binding outside of the site focused on in Figure 1.

      “… both bnAbs showed strong hotspots for a lipid phosphate bound within the CDR-H1 loops, with minimal phospholipid or cholesterol ordering around the proteins elsewhere.  The simulated lipid phosphates bound within CDR-H1 have exceptional overlap with electron densities and atomic details of modelled headgroups from respective lipid-soaked co-crystal structures…”

      Figure 2 main text

      "We similarly investigated bnAb 10E8" - Please make this a separate subheader, the block text is very long up to this point.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We introduced a sub-header to separate work on 10E8 all-atom simulations.

      "we observed a POPC complexed with... modelled as headgroup phosphoglycerol anions..." - please cite the references within the text.

      Thank you for pointing out this missing reference, we added the appropriate reference.

      "One striking and novel observation" - please remove the phrase "striking" throughout, for following best practices in scientific writing (PMC10212555)-this is generally well-done throughout.

      We removed “striking” from our text per your suggestion.

      "This CDR-L1 site highlights... (>500 fold) across HIV strains" - How much do R29 and Y32 also contribute to antigen binding and the conformation of this loop? These mutants also decreased Kd by approximately 20X, and based on the co-crystal structure with the TM antigen (PDB: 4XCC), seem to play a more direct role in antigen contact. Additionally, these residues should be highlighted on a figure, otherwise it's difficult to understand why they are important for membrane association.

      We thank the reviewer for deep engagement to these supporting experimental details.  The R29A+Y32A 10E8 mutant referenced in the text showed only 4-fold Kd increase, a modest change for an SPR binding experiment.  Whereas R29E+Y32E 10E8 mutant resulted in 40x Kd increase, the “20x” the reviewer refers to.  Both 10E8 mutants showed similar drastically reduced breadth and potency of over 2 orders of magnitude on average.

      These mutated CDR-L1 residues are not directly involved in antigen contact and adopt the same loop helix conformation when antigen is bound.  A minor impact on antigen binding affinity could be due altering pre-organization of CDR loops upon losing interactions from the Tyr & Arg sidechains - particularly Tyr31 in contact with CDR-H3.

      As per the suggestion, clearer annotated figure panel denoting these sidechains has been added to Figure 2-Figure Supplement 1 for 10E8 analysis.

      "Structural searches querying... identified between 10^5 and 2*10^6..." - why is this value represented as such a large range? Does this depend on the parameters used for analysis? Please clarify.

      Additionally, how prevalent are any random loop conformations compared to the ones you searched? It's otherwise difficult to attribute number of occurrences within the 2 A cutoff to biological significance, as this number is not put in context.

      We appreciate the reviewers comment to contextualize the range and relative frequency of the bnAb loop conformations.   RMSD and length of loop are the key parameters, which can be controlled by searching reference loops of similar length.  The main point of the backbone-level searching is simply to imply the bnAb loops are not particularly rare when comparing loops of similar length.   

      We did as was suggested and added comparison to random loops of the same length to the main text, including a new Supplementary Table 4.   

      “…identified between 105 to 2∙106 geometrically similar sub-segments within natural proteins (<2 Å RMSD)40, reflecting they are relatively prevalent (not rare) in the protein universe, comparing well with frequency of other surface loops of similar length in antibodies (Supplementary Table 3).”

      "We next examined the geometries" could start after its own new subheading. Moreover, while there's an emphasis on tilt for neutralization, there is not a figure clearly modelling the proposed Env tilt compared to the relatively planar bilayer. It would be helpful to have an additional panel somewhere that shows the orientation of the antibody (e.g., a representative pose) in the simulations relative to an appropriately curved membrane, Env, the binding conformation of the antibody to Env, and apo Env, given the tilting observed in PMID: 32348769 and theorized in PMC5338832. What additional conformational changes or tilting need to occur between the antibodies and Env to accomplish binding to their respective epitopes?

      Thank you for outlining an interesting element to consider in our analysis of a multi-step binding mechanism for MPER antibodies. We added additional figure panels in the supplement to outline the similarities and differences between our simulations and Fabs with the inferred membranes in cryo-EM experiments of full-length HIV Env.  The simulated Fabs’ angles are very similar with only minor tilting to match the cryo-EM antibody-membrane geometries. 

      We added Figure 1-figure supplement 1A & Figure 2-figure supplement 2A, and alter to text to reflect this:

      “The primary difference is Env-bound Fabs in cryo-EM adopt slightly more shallow approach angles (~15_°_) relative to the bilayer normal.  The simulated bnAbs in isolation prefer orientations slightly more upright, but presenting CDRs at approximately the same depth and orientation.  Thus, these bnAbs appear pre-disposed in their membrane surface conformations, needing only a minor tilt to form the membrane-antibody-antigen neutralization complex.”   

      Env tilt dynamics and membrane curvature of natural virions may reconcile some of these differences.  Recent in situ tomography of Full-length Env in pseudo-virions corroborates our approximation of flat bilayers over the short length scales around Env.

      The sentence "we next examined the geometries" mentions "potential energy cost, if any, for reorienting...". However, there's no further discussions of geometry or energy cost within this section. Please rephrase, or move this figure to main and increase discussion associated with the various conformational ensembles, their geometry, and their phospholipid association.

      As the reviewer highlights, the unbiased simulations and our analysis do not explicitly evaluate energetics.  We removed this phrase, and now only allude to the minimal energy barrier between the similar geometric conformations, relative to the tilting & access requirements for antigen binding mechanism.

      “The apparent barrier for re-orientation is likely much less energetically constraining than shielding glycans and accessibility of MPER”

      ".. describing the spectrum of surface-bound conformations" cites the wrong figure.

      Thank you for noticing this error; we correct the figure reference to (Figure 2-figure supplement 4).

      Please comment on the significance of how global clustering (Fig. S5A-C) was similar for 4E10 and PGZL1, but different for 10E8 (e.g., blue, orange, and yellow clusters for 4E10 and PHZL1 versus cyan, red, and green clusters for 10E8). As the cyan cluster seems to be much closer in Euclidian space to the 4E10/PGZL1 clusters, it might warrant additional analysis. What do these clusters represent in terms of structure/conformation? How do these clusters differ in membrane insertion as in (A)?

      We are grateful you identify analysis in the geometric clustering section that may be of interest to other readers. We have added additional supplementary table (Table 2) to detail the CDR loop membrane insertion and global Fab angles which describe each cluster, to demonstrate their similarities and differences.  We also better describe how global clustering was similar for 4E10 and PGZL1, but different for 10E8 in the relevant results section<br /> The cyan cluster is not close in structure to 4E10/PGZL1 clusters.  We note the original figure panel had an error.  The updated Figure 2-supplement 4B shows the correct Euclidian distance hierarchy with an early split between 4e10/pgzl1 and 10e8 clusters.

      Figure 3 main text

      The start of this section, "We next studied bnAb LN01...", is a good place for a new subheader.

      We have added an additional subheader here: Antigen influence on membrane bound conformations and lipid binding sites for LN01

      There should be a sentence in the main text defining the replicate setup and production MD run time. Is the apo and complex based on a published structure? How do you embed the MPER? Is the apo structure docked to membrane like in 4E10? The MD setup could also be better delineated within the methods.

      The first two paragraphs in this section have been updated to clarify the relevant simulations configuration and Fab membrane docking prediction details. 

      The procedure was the same for predicting an initial membrane insertion, albeit now we use the LN01-TM complex and the calculation will account for the membrane burial of the the TM domain and MPER fragment.  As mentioned, LN01 is predicted as inserted with CDR loops insert similarly with or without the TM-MPER fragment.  The geometry differs from PGZL1/4E10 and 10E8, denoted by the text.

      Please comment on the oligomerization state of the antigen used in the MD simulation: how does the simulation differ from a crossed MPER as observed in an MPER antibody-bound Env cryo-EM structure (PMID: 32348769), a three-helix bundle (PMC7210310), or single transmembrane helix (PMC6121722)? How does the model MPER monomer embed in the membrane compared to simulations with a trimeric MPER (PMC6035291, PMID: 33882664)-namely, key arginine residues such as R696?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out critical underlying rationale for modeling this TM-MPER-LN01 complex which we have corrected in the revised draft. The range of potential conformations and display of MPER based on TM domain organization could easily be its own paper – we in fact have a manuscript in preparation on the topic.  

      The updated text expands the rationale for choosing the monomeric uninterrupted helix form of the MPER-TM model antigen (para 1 of LN01 section). The alternative conformations we did not to explore are called out, with references provided by the reviewer.

      The discussion qualified that the MPER presentation is likely oversimplified here, noting MPER display in the full-length Env trimer will vary in different conformational states or membrane environments. However, the only cryo-EM structures of full-length ENV with TM domains resolved have this continuous helix MPER-TM conformation – seen both within crossing TM dimers or dissociated TM monomers.

      Are there additional analyses that can validate the dynamics of the MPER monomer in the membrane and relative to LN01? Such as key contacts you would expect to maintain over the duration of the MD simulation?

      We also increased description of this TM domain’s behavior, dynamics (tilt, orientation, Arg696 snorkeling, and complex w LN01) to provide a clearer picture of the simulation results – which aligns with past MD of the gp41 TM domain as a monomer (para 2 of LN01 section).  As well, we noted key LN01-MPER contacts that were maintained.

      How does the model MPER modulate membrane properties like lipid density and lipid proximities near LN01?

      We checked and didn’t notice differences for the types of lipids (chol, etc) proximal to the MPER-TM or the CDR loops versus the bulk lipid bilayer distributions.  Due to the already long & detailed nature of this manuscript, we elect not to include discussion on this topic.

      Supplemental figure 1H-I would be better positioned as a figure 3-associated supplemental figure.

      We rearranged to follow the eLife format and have paired supplemental panels with their most relevant main figures.

      Figure 3F/H reference a "loading site" but this site is defined much later in the text, which was confusing.

      Thank you for pointing out this source of confusion, we rearranged our discussion to reflect the order in which we present data in figures.

      What evidence suggests that lipids "quickly exchange from the Loading site into the X-ray site by diffusion"? I do not gather this from Figure S1H/I.

      We have rearranged the loading side and x-ray site RMSD maps in Figure 3-Figure supplement 1 to better illustrate how a lipid exchanges between these sites.

      Figure 4 main text

      The authors assert that in the CG simulations, restraints, "[maintain] Fab tertiary and quaternary structure". However, backbone RMSD does not directly assert this claim-an additional analysis of the key interfacial residues between chains, or geometric analysis between the chains, would better support this claim.

      Thank you for pointing this point.  We rephrased to add that the major sidechain contacts between heavy and light chain persist, in addition to backbone RMSD, to describe how these Fabs maintain the fold stably in CG representation. 

      In several cases, CG models sample and then dissociate from the membrane. In the text, the authors mention, "course-grained models can distinguishing unfavorable and favorable membrane-bound conformations". Is there a particular orientation that causes/favors membrane association and dissociation? This analysis could look at conformations immediately preceding association and dissociation to give clues as to what orientation(s) favor each state.

      Thank you for suggesting this interesting analysis.  Clustering analysis of associated states are presented in Figure 5, Figure 5-Figure Supplement 1, and Figure 6, which show all CDR and framework loop directed insertion.  This feature is currently described in the main text.  

      We did not find strong correlation of specific orientations as “pre-dissociation” states or ineffective non-inserting “scanning” events.  We revised the key sentence to reflect the major take away – that non-CDR alternative conformations did not insert and most of those having CDRs inserted in a different manner than all-atom simulations also were prone to dissociate:

      “Given that non-CDR directed and alternative CDR-embedded orientations readily dissociate, we conclude that course-grained models can distinguish unfavorable and favorable membrane-bound conformations to an extent that provides utility for characterizing antibody-bilayer interaction mechanisms.”

      Figure 6 main text

      "For 4E10, trajectories initiated from all three geometries..." only two geometries are shown for each antibody. Please include all three on the plot.

      The plots include markers for all three geometries for 4E10, highlighted in stars or with letters on the density plots of angles sampled (Figure 6B,C)

      "Aligning a full-length IgG... unlikely that two Fabs simultaneously..." Are there theoretical conformations in which two Fabs could simultaneously associate with membrane? If this was physiological or could be designed rationally, could an antibody benefit further from avidity?

      Our modeling suggests the theoretical conformations having two Fabs on the membrane are infeasible.  It’s even less likely multiple Env antigens could be engaged by one IgG.  We have revised the text to express this more clearly.

      Figure 7 main text

      "An intermediate... showed a modest reduction in affinity..." what affinity does PGZL1 have for this antigen?

      The preceding sentence for this information: “Mature PGZL1 has relatively high affinity to the MPER epitope peptide (Kd = 10 nM) and demonstrates great breadth and potency, neutralizing 84% of a 130 strain panel “

      Figures

      Figure 1

      It would be helpful to have an additional panel at the top of this figure further zoomed out showing the orientation of the antibody (e.g., a representative pose) in the simulations relative to an appropriately curved membrane, Env, the binding conformation of the antibody to Env, and apo Env, given the tilting observed in PMID: 32348769 and theorized in PMC5338832. What additional conformational changes or tilting need to occur between the antibodies and Env to accomplish binding to their respective epitopes?

      Thank you for the suggestion to include this analysis.  We have added to the text reflecting this information, as well as making new supplemental panels for 4E10 and 10E8 that we compare simulated 4E10 and 10E8 Fab conformations to cryoEM density maps with Fabs bound to full-length HIV Env. Figure 1-figure supplement 1A & Figure 2-figure supplement 2A

      In Figure 1, space permitting, it would be helpful to annotate the distances between the phosphates and side chains (similarly, for Figure S1A).

      To avoid the overloading the Main figure panels with text, those relevant distances are listed in the methods sections.  Those distances are used to define the “bound” lipid phosphate state.  Generally, we note the interactions are within hydrogen bonding distance.

      Annotating "Replicate 1" and "Replicate 2" on the left side of Figure 1C/D would make this figure immediately intuitive.

      We have added these labels.

      Figure caption 1C: Please clarify the threshold/definition of a contact used to binarize "bound" versus "unbound" (for example, "mean distance cutoff of 2A between the phosphate oxygen and the COM of CDR-H1") [on further reading of the methods section, this criterion is quite involved and might benefit from: a sentence that includes "see methods"]. Additionally, C could use a sentence explaining the bar such as in E, "Phosphate binding is mapped to above each MD trajectory" Please define FR-H3 in the figure caption for E/F.

      We have added these details to the figure caption.

      Because Figure 1 is aggregated simulation time, it would be helpful to also represent the data as individual replicates or incorporate this information to calculate standard deviations/statistics (e.g., 1 microsecond max using the replicates to compute a standard deviation).

      We believe the current quantification & display of data via sharing all trajectories is sufficient to convey the major point for how often each CDR-phosholipid binding site it occupied.  Further tracking and statistics of inter-atomic distances will likely be too tedious & add minimal value. There is some dynamics of the phosphate oxygens between the polar within the CDR site but our “bound” state definitions sufficiently describe the key participating interactions are made.

      Figure 2

      For A, it would be helpful to annotate the yellow and blue mesh on the figure itself.

      We have defined the orange phosphate and blue choline densities.

      Also, where are R29 and Y32 relative to this site? In the X-ray panels, Y38 is not shown, and the box delineating the zoom-in is almost imperceptible.

      Thank you for this suggestion to include those amino acids which are referenced in the text as critical sites where mutation impacts function. To clarify, Y32 is the pdb numbering for residue Y38 in IMGT numbering. We have added a panel to Figure 2-Figure Supplement 1 having a cartoon graphic of 10E8 loop groove with sidechains & annotating R29 and Y38, staying consistent with out use of IMGT numbering in the manuscript.

      Figure 3

      It might read clearer to have "LN01+MPER-TM" and "LN01-Apo" in the middle of A/B and C/D, respectively, and a dotted line delineating the left and right side of the figure panels.

      We have added these details to the figure for clarity for readers.

      It would be helpful to show some critical interactions that are discussed in the text, such as the salt bridge with K31, by labeling these on the figure (e.g., in E-H).

      We drafted figure panels with dashed lines to indicate those key interactions.  However, they became almost imperceptible and overloaded with annotations that distracted from the overall details.  For K31, the interaction occurs in LN01 crystal structures readers can refer to.

      Why are axes cut off for J?

      We corrected this.

      Please re-define K/L plots as in Figure 1, and explain abbreviations.

      We updated the figure caption to reflect these changes.

      Figure 4

      The caption for panel A states that the Fab begins in solvent 1-2 nm above the bilayer, but the main text states 0.5-2 nm.

      We have reconciled this difference and listed the correct distances: 0.5-2nm.

      Please label the y-axis as "Replicate" for relevant figure panels so that they are more immediately interpretable.

      This label has been added.

      A legend with "membrane-associated" and "non-associated" within the figure would be helpful. Additionally, the average percent membrane associated, with a standard deviation, should be shown (Similar to 1C, albeit with the statistics).

      This legend has been added.  We also added the additional statistical metrics requested to strengthen our analysis.

      The text references "10, 14, and 12 extended insertion events" for the three antibody-based simulations. How do you define "extended insertion events"? Would breaking this into average insertion time and standard deviation better highlight the association differences between MPER antibodies and controls, in addition to the variability due to difference random initialization?

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful suggestion on how to better organize quantitative analysis to support the method. Supplemental Table 3 includes these numbers.

      Figure 5

      The analysis in Fig. S6C could be included here as a main figure.

      The drafted revised figure adding S6C to Figure 5 made for too much information.  Likewise, putting this panel S6C separated it from the parent clustering data of S6B, so we decided to keep these figures separated.  The S6 figure is now Figure 5-figure supplement 1.

      Figure 6

      Please annotate membrane insertion on E as %.

      These are phosphate binding RMSD/occupancy vs time.  The panels are now too small to annotate by %.  The qualitative presentation is sufficient at this stage.  The quantitative % are listed in-line within text when relevant to support assertions made. 

      Please use the figure caption to explain why certain clusters (e.g., 10E8 cluster A, artifact, Fig. S6E) are not included in panel E.

      We have added this information in the figure caption.

      Figure 7

      Please show all points on the box and whisker plots (panels E and F), and perform appropriate statistical tests to see if means are significantly different (these are mentioned in the text, but should be annotated on the graph and mentioned within the figure caption).

      We have changed these plots to show all data points along with relevant statistical comparisons. The figure captions describe unpaired t-test statistical tests used.

      Figure S1

      G, H, and I do not belong here-they should be moved to accompany their relevant text section, which associates with Figure 3. It would be helpful to associate this with Figure 3 in the eLife format, "Figure 3-Supplemental Figure 1" or its equivalent.

      It's very difficult to distinguish the green and blue circles on panel G.

      We darkened the shading and added outline for better visualization

      Subfigure I is missing a caption, could be included with H: "(H,I) Additional replicates for LN01+TM (H) and LN01 (I)".

      We corrected this as suggested.

      Why is H only 3 simulations and not 4? Does it not have a lipid in the x-ray site? Also, the caption states "(top, green)" and "(bottom, cyan)", but the green vs. cyan figures are organized on the left and right. Additional labels within the figure would help make this more intuitive.

      If the point of H and I is to illustrate that POPC exchanges between the X-ray and loading sites, this is unclear from the figure. Consider clarifying these figures.

      Thank you for describing the confusion in this figure, we have added labels to clarify.

      Figure S2 (panels split between revised Figure 4 associated figure supplements)

      The LN01 figures should likely follow later so that they can associate with Figure 3, despite being a similar analysis.

      We corrected supplements to eLife format so supplements are associated with relevant main figures.

      Figure S3 (panels split between revised Figure 1 & 2 associated figure supplements)

      As hydrophobicity is discussed as a driving factor for residue insertion, it would be helpful to have a rolling hydrophobicity chart underneath each plot to make this claim obvious.

      We prefer the current format, due to the worry of having too much information in these already data-rich panels.  As well, residues are not apolar but are deeply inserted.

      Figure S4 (panels split between revised Figure 1 & 2 associated figure supplements)

      It would be helpful to label the relevant loops on these figures.

      We have labeled loops for clarity.

      Do any of these loops have minor contacts with Env in the structure?

      The 4E10 and PGZL1 CDRH-1 loop does not directly contact bound MPER peptides bound in crystal structures. 

      FRL-3 and CDR-H1 in 10E8 do not contact the MPER peptide antigen component based on x-ray crystal structures.

      Do motif contacts with lipid involve minor contacts with additional loops other than those displayed in this figure?

      The phosphate-loop interactions in motifs used as query bait here are mediated solely by the backbone and side chain interactions of the loops displayed. We visually inspected most matches and did not see any “consensus” additional peripheral interactions common across each potential instance in the unrelated proteins.  The supplied Supplemental Table 2 contains the information if a reader wanted to conduct a detailed search. 

      Why is there such a difference between the loop conformation adopted in the X-ray structure and that in the MD simulation, and why does this lead to the large observed differences in ligand-binding structure matches?

      We thank the reviewer for carefully noting our error in labeling of CDR loop and framework region input queries. We revised the labeling to clarify the issue.

      The is minimal structural difference between the loops in x-ray and MD.

      Figure S5 (Figure 2-Figure supplement 4)

      This figure is not colorblind friendly-it would be helpful to change to such a pallet as the data are interesting, but uninterpretable to some.

      We have left this figure the same.

      "Susbstates" - "Substates"

      Corrected, thank you.

      Panel B is uninterpretable-please break the axis so that the Euclidian distances can be represented accurately but the histograms can be interpreted.

      We have adjusted axis for this plot to better illustrate the cluster thresholds.

      The clusters in D-H should be analyzed in greater depth. What is the structural relevance of these clusters other than differences in phospholipid occupancy in (I)? Snapshots of representative poses for each cluster could help clarify these differences.

      We have adjusted the text to describe the geometric differences in each of those clusters that result in the different exceptionally lower propensities for forming the key phospholipid interaction.  

      The figure caption should make it clear that 3 μS of aggregate simulation time is being used here instead of 4 μS to start with unique tilt initializations. E.g., "unique starting membrane-bound conformations (0 degrees, -15 degrees, 15 degrees initialization relative to the docked pose)". Further, why was the particular 0-degree replicate chosen while the other was thrown out? Or was this information averaged? Why is the full 4 μS then used for D-I?

      We thank the reviewer for noting these details.  We didn’t want to bias the differential between 10E8 and 4E10/PGZL1 by including the replicate simulations.  The analysis was mainly intended to achieve more coarse resolution distinction between 10E8 and the similar PGZL1/4E10.  

      In the subsequent clustering of individual bnAb simulation groups, the replicate 0 degree simulations had sufficiently different geometric sampling and unique lipid binding behavior that we though it should be used (4 us total) to achieve finer conformational resolution for each bnAb.

      Figure S6 (now Figure 5-Figure Supplement 1)

      Please label the CDRs in C and provide a color key like in other figures. Also, please label the y-axes. This figure could move to main below 5B with the clusters "A,B,C" labeled on 5B.

      We have added the axes labels and color key legend.  We retained a minimal CDR loop labeling scheme for the more throughput interaction profiles here where colored sections in the residue axes denote CDR loop regions.

      Figure S7 (Figure 7 Figure Supplement 1)

      Panels A and B would likely read better if swapped.

      We have swapped these panels for a better flow.

      For panel C, please display mean and standard deviation, and compare these values with an appropriate statistical test.

      This is already displayed in main figure, we have removed it from supplement.

      For E and F, please clarify from which trajectory(s) you are extracting this conformation from. Are these the global mean/representative poses? How do they compare to other geometrically distinct clusters?

      The requested information was added to supplemental figure caption.  These are frames from 2 distinct time points selected phosphate bound frames from 0-degree tilt replicates for both 4E10 and 10E8, representing at least 2 distinct macroscopic substates differing in global light chain and heavy chain orientation towards the membrane. 

      Table S2 (now Supplementary Table 3)

      Please add details for the 13h11 simulation.

      Additionally, please add average contact time and their standard deviation to the table, rather than just the aggregated total time. This will highlight the variability associated with the random initializations of each simulation.

      We have added the details for 13h11 and the requested analysis (average aggregated time +/- standard deviation and average time per association event +- standard deviation) to supplement our summary statistics for this method.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The structure of the manuscript should be improved. For example, almost half of the introduction (three paragraphs) summarize the results. I found it hard to navigate all the data and specific interactions described in the result section. Furthermore, the claims at the end of several sections seem unsupported. Especially for the generalization of the approach. This should be moved to the discussion section. The discussion is pretty general and does not provide much context to the results presented in this study.

      We have significantly reorganized the results section to improve the flow of the manuscript and accessibility for readers, especially the first sections of all-atom simulations. We also removed claims not directly supported by data from our results, and expanded on some of these concepts in the discussion to make some more novel context to the result.

      (2) The author should cite more rigorously previous work and refrain from using the term "develop" to describe the simple use of a well established method. E.g. Several studies have investigated membrane protein interactions e.g. [1], membrane protein-bilayer self-assembly [2], steered molecular dynamics [3], etc.

      Thank you for identifying relevant work for the simulations that set precedent for our novel application to antibody-membrane interactions.  We have removed language about development of simulation methods from the text and now better reference the precedent simulation methods used here.

      (3) Have the authors considered estimating the PMF by combining the steered MD simulation through the application of Jarzynski's equality?

      We performed from preliminary PMFs for Fab-membrane binding, but saw it was taking upward of 40 us to reach convergence.  Steered simulations focus on a key lipid may be easier.

      Although PMFs are beyond the scope of this work, we added proposals & allusion to their utility as the next steps for more rigorous quantification of fab-membrane interactions.

      Minor

      (4) The term "integrative modeling" is usually used for computational pipelines which incorporate experimental data. Multiscale modeling would be more appropriate for this study.

      We altered descriptions throughout the manuscript to reflect this comment.

      (5) Units to report the force in the steered molecular dynamics are incorrect. They should be 98.

      We changed axes and results to correctly report this unit.

      (6) Labels for axes of several graphs are not missing.

      We added labels to all axes of graphs, except for a few where stacked labels can be easily interpreted to save space and reduce complexity in figures.

      (7) Figure 3 K & L is this really < 1% of total? The term "total" should also be clarified.

      Thank you for pointing this out, we changed the % labels to be correct with axes from 0-100%. We clarified total in the figure caption.

      (8) The font size in figures should be uniformized.

      This suggestion has been applied

      (9) Time needed for steered MD should be reported in CPUh and not hours (page 17).

      We removed comments on explicit time measurements for our simulations.

      (10) Version of Martini force field is missing in methods section

      We used Martini 2.6 and added this to the methods.

      References

      (1) Prunotto, Alessio, et al. "Molecular bases of the membrane association mechanism potentiating antibiotic resistance by New Delhi metallo-β-lactamase 1." ACS infectious diseases 6.10 (2020): 2719-2731.

      (2) Scott, Kathryn A., et al. "Coarse-grained MD simulations of membrane protein-bilayer self-assembly." Structure 16.4 (2008): 621-630.

      (3) Izrailev, S., et al. "Computational molecular dynamics: challenges, methods, ideas. Chapter 1. Steered molecular dynamics." (1997).

    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors explore a novel mechanism linking aging to chromosome mis-segregation and aneuploidy in yeast cells. They reveal that, in old yeast mother cells, chromosome loss occurs through asymmetric partitioning of chromosomes to daughter cells, a process coupled with the inheritance of an old Spindle Pole Body. Remarkably, the authors identify that remodeling of the nuclear pore complex (NPC), specifically the displacement of its nuclear basket, triggers these asymmetric segregation events. This disruption also leads to the leakage of unspliced pre-mRNAs into the cytoplasm, highlighting a breakdown in RNA quality control. Through genetic manipulation, the study demonstrates that removing introns from key chromosome segregation genes is sufficient to prevent chromosome loss in aged cells. Moreover, promoting pre-mRNA leakage in young cells mimics the chromosome mis-segregation observed in old cells, providing further evidence for the critical role of nuclear envelope integrity and RNA processing in aging-related genome instability.

      Strengths:

      The findings presented are not only intriguing but also well-supported by robust experimental data, highlighting a previously unrecognized connection between nuclear envelope integrity, RNA processing, and genome stability in aging cells, deepening our understanding of the molecular basis of chromosome loss in aging.

      We thank the reviewer for this very positive assessment of our work

      Weaknesses:

      Further analysis of yeast aging data from microfluidic experiments will provide important information about the dynamic features and prevalence of the key aging phenotypes, e.g. pre-mRNA leakage and chromosome loss, reported in this work.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing this point, which we will address indeed in the revised version of the manuscript.  In short, chromosome loss is an abrupt, late event in the lifespan of the cells.  Its prevalence is more complex to assess and will require correlated loss rate of several chromosomes concomitantly. The prevalence of the pre-mRNA leakage phenotype is easier to assess and we will provide data about this in the revised manuscript as well.  Our data show that the prevalence is quite high (well above 50%), even if not every cell is affected.

      In addition, a discussion would be needed to clarify the relationship between "chromosome loss" in this study and "genomic missegregation" reported previously in yeast aging.

      The genomic missegregation mentioned by the reviewer is a process distinct from the chromosome loss that we report.  Genomic missegregation is characterized by the entry of both SPBs and all the chromosomes into the daughter cell compartment (PMID: 31714209).  We do observed these events in our movies as well.  In contrast, the chromosome loss phenotype is takes place under proper elongation of the spindle and proper segregation of the two SPBs between mother and bud, as shown in figure 2 of the manuscript.  In our movies, chromosome loss is at least three fold more frequent (for a single chromosome) than full genome missegregation.  Furthermore, whereas chromosome loss is alleviated by the removal of the introns of MCM21, NBL1 and GLC7, genomic missegregation is not.

      Nevertheless, we thank the reviewer for bringing up the possible confusion between the two phenotypes.  We will explain and illustrate the difference between the two processes in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors make the interesting discovery of increased chromosome non-dysjunction in aging yeast mother cells. The phenotype is quite striking and well supported with solid experimental evidence. This is quite significant to a haploid cell (as used here) - loss of an essential chromosome leads to death soon thereafter. The authors then work to tie this phenotype to other age-associated phenotypes that have been previously characterized: accumulation of extrachromosomal rDNA circles that then correlate with compromised nuclear pore export functions, which correlates with "leaky" pores that permit unspliced mRNA messages to be inappropriately exported to the cytoplasm. They then infer that three intron containing mRNAs that encode portions in resolving sister chromatid separation during mitosis, are unspliced in this age-associated defect and thus lead to the non-dysjunction problem.

      Strengths: The discovery of age-associated chromosome non-dysjunction is an interesting discovery, and it is demonstrated in a convincing fashion with "classic" microscopy-based single cell fluorescent chromosome assays that are appropriate and seem robust. The correlation of this phenotype with other age-associated phenotypes - specifically extrachromosomal rDNA circles and nuclear pore dysfunction - is supported by in vivo genetic manipulations that have been well-characterized in the past.

      In addition, the application of the single cell mRNA splicing defect reporter showed very convincingly that general mRNA splicing is compromised in aged cells. Such a pleiotropic event certainly has big implications.

      We thank the reviewer for this assessment of our work.  To avoid confusion, we would like to stress out, however, that our data do not show that splicing per se is defective in old cells.  We only show that unspliced mRNAs tend to leak out of the nucleus of old cells.

      Weaknesses:

      The biggest weakness is "connecting all the dots" of causality and linking the splicing defect to chromosome disjunction. I commend the authors for making a valiant effort in this regard, but there are many caveats to this interpretation. While the "triple intron" removal suppressed the non-dysjunction defect in aged cells, this could simply be a kinetic fix, where a slowdown in the relevant aspects of mitosis, could give the cell time to resolve the syntelic attachment of the chromatids.

      The possibility that intron-removal leads to a kinetic fix is an interesting idea that we will address in the revised manuscript.  So far we have no observed that removing these introns slows down mitosis but we will test the idea by doing precise measurements.

      To this point, I note that the intron-less version of GLC7, which affects the most dramatic suppression of the three genes, is reported by one of the authors to have a slow growth rate (Parenteau et al, 2008 - https://doi.org/10.1091/mbc.e07-12-1254)

      The reviewer is right, removing the intron of GLC7 reduces the expression levels of the gene product (PMID: 16816425) to about 50% of the original value and causes a slow growth phenotype.  However, the cells revert fairly rapidly through duplication of the GLC7 gene.  As a consequence, neither the GLC7-∆i nor the 3x∆i mutant strains show noticeable growth phenotypes by spot assays.  We will document these findings and provide a measurement of the growth rate of the mutant strain in the revised manuscript. 

      In addition, the lifespan curve containing the 3∆i in Figure 5E has a very unusual shape, suggesting a growth problem/"sickness" in this strain.

      To be accurate the strain plotted in Figure 5E is not the 3x∆i triple mutant strain but the 3x∆i mlp1∆  quadruple mutant strain.  The 3x∆i triple mutant strain is plotted in Figure 4D and its shape is similar to that of the wild type cells.  The strain in Figure 5E is indeed sick ,due to the removal of the nuclear basket. However, the 3x∆i mutations partially rescue the replicative lifespan shortening due the mlp1∆ mutation (see text).  Illustrating the fact that the 3x∆i mutant strain is not particularly sick, it shows a prolonged lifespan and a fairly standard aging curve.

      Lastly, the Herculean effort to perform FISH of the introns in the cytoplasm is quite literally at the statistical limit of this assay. The data were not as robust as the other assays employed through this study. The data show either "no" signal for the young cells or a signal of 0, 1,or 2 FISH foci in the aged cells. In a Poisson distribution, which this follows, it is improbable to distinguish between these differences.

      This is correct, this experiment was not the easiest of the manuscript... However, despite the limitations of the assay, the data presented in figure 6B are quite clear.  300 cells aged by MEP were analysed, divided in the cohorts of 100 each, and the distribution of foci (nuclear vs cytoplasmic) in these aged cells were compared to the distribution in three cohorts of young cells.  For all 3 aged cohorts, over 70% of the visible foci were cytoplasmic, while in the young cells, this figure was around 3%.  A t-test was conducted to compare these frequencies between young and old cells (Figure 6B).  The difference is highly significant.  The reviewer refers to the supplementary Figure 4, where we were simply asking i) is the signal lost in cells lacking the intron of GLC7 (the response is unambiguously yes) and ii) what is the general number of dots per cells between young and old wild type cells (without distinguishing between nuclear and cytoplasmic) and the information to be taken from this last quantification is indeed that there is no clearly distinguishable difference between these two population of cells.  In other word, the reason why there are more dots in the cytoplasm of the old cells in the Figure 6B is not because the old cells have much more dots in general.  We hope that these clarifications help understand the data better.  We will make sure that this is clearer in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Mirkovic et al explore the cause underlying development of aneuploidy during aging. This paper provides a compelling insight into the basis of chromosome missegregation in aged cells, tying this phenomenon to the established Nuclear Pore Complex architecture remodeling that occurs with aging across a large span of diverse organisms. The authors first establish that aged mother cells exhibit aberrant error correction during mitosis. As extrachromosomal rDNA circles (ERCs) are known to increase with age and lead to NPC dysfunction that can result in leakage of unspliced pre-mRNAs, Mirkovic et al search for intron-containing genes in yeast that may be underlying chromosome missegregation, identifying three genes in the aurora B-dependent error correction pathway: MCM21, NBL1, and GLC7. Interestingly, intron-less mutants in these genes suppress chromosome loss in aged cells, with a significant impact observed when all three introns were deleted (3x∆i). The 3x∆i mutant also suppresses the increased chromosome loss resulting from nuclear basket destabilization in a mlp1∆ mutant. The authors then directly test if aged cells do exhibit aberrant mRNA export, using RNA FISH to identify that old cells indeed leak intron-containing pre-mRNA into the cytoplasm, as well as a reporter assay to demonstrate translation of leaked pre-mRNA, and that this is suppressed in cells producing less ERCs. Mutants causing increased pre-mRNA leakage are sufficient to induce chromosome missegregation, which is suppressed by the 3x∆i.

      Strengths:

      The finding that deleting the introns of 3 genes in the Aurora B pathway can suppress age-related chromosome missegregation is highly compelling. Additionally, the rationale behind the various experiments in this paper is well-reasoned and clearly explained.

      We thank the reviewer for their very positive assessment of our work

      Weaknesses:

      In some cases, controls for experiments were not presented or were depicted in other figures.

      We are sorry about this confusion.  We will improve our presentation of the controls, make sure that they are brought back again each time they are relevant (we wanted to limit the cases of replotting the same controls several times).  We will also add those that are missing (such as those mentioned by reviewer 2, see above)

      High variability was seen in chromosome loss data, leading to large error bars.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. The variance in those two figures (3A and 5D) comes from the suboptimal plotting of this data. This will be corrected in the revised version of the manuscript. 

      The text could have been more polished.

      Thank you for this comment.  We will go through the manuscript again in details

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The topic of nanobody-based PET imaging is important and holds great potential for real-world applications since nanobodies have many advantages over full sized immunoglobulins and small molecules.

      Strengths:

      The submitted manuscript contains quite a bit of interesting data from a collaborative team of well-respected researchers. The authors are to be congratulated for presenting results that may not have turned out the way they had hoped, and doing so in a transparent fashion.

      Weaknesses:

      However, the manuscript could be considered to be a collection of exploratory findings rather than a complete and mature scientific exposition. Most of the sample sizes were 3 per group, which is fine for exploratory work, but insufficient to draw strong statistically robust conclusions for definitive results.

      We thank reviewer #1 for the  review of our work. We appreciate reviewer’s #1 comment on our intent to publish our results in the most transparent fashion, which is the case. We would point out that due to the technical challenges and cost of generating all the different nanobody-radiometal tracer conjugates, we included 3 repeats per group, which is the minimum required  to perform statistical comparisons. We plan to add additional controls to the manuscript that were not initially included to limit the length of the manuscript. These additional controls  will lend more weight to our conclusions.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This is a strong and well-described study showing for the first time the use and publicly available resources to use a specific PET tracer to track proliferating transplanted cells in vivo, in a full murine immunecompetent environment.

      In this study the authors described a previously developed set of VHH-based PET tracers to track transplants (cancer cells, embryo's) in a murine immune-competent environment.

      Strengths:

      Unique set of PET tracer and mouse strain to track transplanted cells in vivo without genetic modification of the transplanted cells. This is a unique asset, and a first-in-kind.

      Weaknesses:

      - Some methodological aspects and controls are missing

      - No clinical relevance?

      We thank reviewer #2 for their review of our work. We support reviewer’s 2 view on the strength of being able to track transplanted cells in vivo without the need of any sort of manipulation of the transferred cells.  We plan to add additional controls to the manuscript that were not initially included to limit the length of the manuscript. These additional controls will lend more weight to our conclusions. We emphasize that although no clear clinical applications immediately derive  from our studies, this work  still offers better-suited tools for pre-clinical studies that require the ability to track transplanted cells in in vivo . We will resubmit a revised version shortly.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      In this manuscript, the authors recorded cerebellar unipolar brush cells (UBCs) in acute brain slices. They confirmed that mossy fiber (MF) inputs generate a continuum of UBC responses. Using systematic and physiological trains of MF electrical stimulation, they demonstrated that MF inputs either increased or decreased UBC firing rates (UBC ON vs. OFF) or induced complex, long-lasting modulation of their discharges. The MF influence on UBC firing was directly associated with a specific combination of metabotropic glutamate receptors, mGluR2/3 (inhibitory) and mGluR1 (excitatory). Ultimately, the amount and ratio of these two receptors controlled the time course of the effect, yielding specific temporal transformations such as phase shifts.

      Overall, the topic is compelling, as it broadens our understanding of temporal processing in the cerebellar cortex. The experiments are well-executed and properly analyzed.

      Strengths:

      (1) A wide range of MF stimulation patterns was explored, including burst duration and frequency dependency, which could serve as a valuable foundation for explicit modeling of temporal transformations in the granule cell layer.

      (2) The pharmacological blockade of mGluR2/3, mGluR1, AMPA, and NMDA receptors helped identify the specific roles of these glutamate receptors.

      (3) The experiments convincingly demonstrate the key role of mGluR1 receptors in temporal information processing by UBCs.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) This study is largely descriptive and represents only a modest incremental advance from the previous work (Guo et al., Nat. Commun., 2021). 

      We feel that the present study is a major advance.  It builds on (Guo et al., Nat. Commun., 2021) in which we examined the effects of bursts of 20 stimuli at 100 spk/s.  In that study we found that differential expression of mGluR1 and mGluR2 let to a continuum of temporal responses in UBCs, but AMPARs make a minimal contribution for such bursts. It was not known how UBCs transform realistic mossy fiber input patterns. Here we provide a comprehensive evaluation of a wide range of input patterns that include a range of bursts comprised of 1-20 stimuli, sustained stimulation with stimulation of 1 spk/s to 60 spk/s. This more thorough assessment of UBC transformations combined with a pharmacological assessment of the contributions of different glutamate receptor subtypes provided many new insights: 

      • We found that UBC transformations are comprised of two different components: a slow temporally filtered component controlled by an interplay of mGluR1 and mGluR2, and a second component mediated by AMPARs that can convey spike timing information. NMDARs do not make a major contribution to UBC firing. The finding that UBCs simultaneously convey two types of signals, a slow filtered response and responses to single stimuli, has important implications for the computational potential of UBCs and fundamentally changes the way we think about UBCs.  

      • We found that with regard to the slow filtered component mediated by mGluR1 and mGluR2, we could extend the concept of a continuum of responses evoked by 20 stimuli at 100 spk/s (Guo et al., Nat. Commun., 2021) to a wide range of stimuli. It was not a given that this would be the case.   

      • The contributions of AMPARs was surprising. Even though snRNAseq data did not reveal a gradient of AMPAR expression across the population of UBCs (Guo et al., Nat. Commun., 2021), we found that there was a gradient of AMPA-mediated responses, and that the AMPA component was also most prominent in cells with a large mGluR1 component. Our finding that AMPAR accessory proteins exhibit a gradient across the population, which could account for the gradient of AMPAR responses, will prompt additional studies to test their involvement. 

      (2) The MF activity used to mimic natural stimulation was previously collected in primates, while the recordings were conducted in mice.

      Our first task was to determine the firing properties of mossy fibers under physiological conditions in UBC rich cerebellar regions. Previous studies have estimated this in anesthetized mice using whole cell granule cell recordings (Arenz et al., 2008; Witter & De Zeeuw 2015). However, for assessing firing patterns during awake behavior, we felt that the most comprehensive data set available in a UBC rich cerebellar region was for mossy fibers involved in smooth pursuit in monkeys (David J. Herzfeld and Stephen G. Lisberger). This revealed the general features of mossy fiber firing that helped us design stimulus patterns to thoroughly probe the properties of MF to UBC transformations. The firing patterns are designed to investigate the transformations for a wide range of activity patterns and have important general implications for UBC transformations that are likely applicable to UBCs in different species that are activated in different ways.   

      (3) Inhibition was blocked throughout the study, reducing its physiological relevance.

      The reviewer correctly brings up the very important issue of inhibition in shaping UBC responses.  It is well established that UBCs are inhibited by Golgi cells (Rousseau et al., 2012), and we recently showed that some UBCs are also inhibited by PCs (Guo et al., eLife, 2021). This will undoubtedly influence the firing of UBCs in vivo. We considered examining this issue, but felt that brain slice experiments are not well suited to this. In contrast to MF inputs that can be activated with a realistic activity pattern, it is exceedingly difficult to know how Golgi cells and Purkinje cells are activated under physiological conditions. Each UBC is activated by a single mossy fiber, but inhibition is provided by Golgi cells that are activated by many mossy fibers and granule cells, and PCs that are controlled by many granule cells and many other PCs. In addition, we found that many Golgi cells do not survive very well in slices, and the axons of many PCs are severed in brain slice. Although limitations of the slice preparation prevent us from determining the role of inhibition in shaping UBC responses, we have added a section to the discussion in which we address the important issue of inhibition and UBC responses.   

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This study addresses the question of how UBCs transform synaptic input patterns into spiking output patterns and how different glutamate receptors contribute to their transformations. The first figure utilizes recorded patterns of mossy fiber firing during eye movements in the flocculus of rhesus monkeys obtained from another laboratory. In the first figure, these patterns are used to stimulate mossy fibers in the mouse cerebellum during extracellular recordings of UBCs in acute mouse brain slices. The remaining experiments stimulate mossy fiber inputs at different rates or burst durations, which is described as 'mossy-fiber like', although they are quite simpler than those recorded in vivo. As expected from previous work, AMPA mediates the fast responses, and mGluR1 and mGluR2/3 mediate the majority of longer-duration and delayed responses. The manuscript is well organized and the discussion contextualizes the results effectively.

      The authors use extracellular recordings because the washout of intracellular molecules necessary for metabotropic signaling may occur during whole-cell recordings. These cell-attached recordings do not allow one to confirm that electrical stimulation produces a postsynaptic current on every stimulus. Moreover, it is not clear that the synaptic input is monosynaptic, as UBCs synapse on one another. This leaves open the possibility that delays in firing could be due to disynaptic stimulation. Additionally, the result that AMPAmediated responses were surprisingly small in many UBCs, despite apparent mRNA expression, suggests the possibility that spillover from other nearby synapses activated the higher affinity extrasynaptic mGluRs and that that main mossy fiber input to the UBC was not being stimulated. For these reasons, some whole-cell recordings (or perforated patch) would show that when stimulation is confirmed to be monosynaptic and reliable it can produce the same range of spiking responses seen extracellularly and that AMPA receptormediated currents are indeed small or absent in some UBCs.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concerns regarding the reliability of mossy fiber activation, the possibility of glutamate spillover from other synapses, and the possibility of disynaptic activation involving stimulation of MFàUBCàUBC connections. We examined these issues in a previous study (Guo et al., Nat. Commun., 2021).  We did on-cell recordings and followed that up with whole cell voltage clamp recordings from the same cell (Guo et al., Nat. Commun., 2021, Fig. 5), and there was good agreement with the amplitude and timing of spiking and the time course and amplitudes of the synaptic currents.  We also compared responses evoked by focal glutamate uncaging over the brush and MF stimulation (Guo et al., Nat. Commun., 2021, Fig. 4). We found that the time courses and amplitudes of the responses were remarkably similar. This strongly suggests that the responses we observe do not reflect disynaptic activation (MFàUBCàUBC connections). We also showed that the responses were all-or-none: at low intensities no response was evoked, as the intensity of extracellular stimulation was increased a large response was suddenly evoked at a threshold intensity and further increases in intensity did not increase the amplitude of the response (Guo et al., Nat. Commun., 2021, Extended data Fig. 1).  We can be well above threshold and still excite the same response, and as a result we do not see stereotyped indications of an inability to stimulate during prolonged high frequency activation.  We recognize the importance of these issues, so we have  added a section dealing explicitly with these issues (pp. 15-16).  

      A discussion of whether the tested glutamate receptors affected the spontaneous firing rates of these cells would be informative as standing currents have been reported in UBCs. It is unclear whether the firing rate was normalized for each stimulation, each drug application, or each cell. It would also be informative to report whether UBCs characterized as responding with Fast, Mid-range, Slow, and OFF responses have different spontaneous firing rates or spontaneous firing patterns (regular vs irregular).

      The spontaneous firing of UBCs is indeed an interesting issue that is deserving of further investigation. It is not currently known how spontaneous firing at rest is regulated in UBCs, however, in previous work we have shown that there is great diversity in the rates across the population of UBCs in the dorsal cochlear nucleus (Huson & Regehr, JNeurosci, 2023, Fig. 4). Unfortunately, during the kind of sustained high-frequency stimulation protocols (as used in this study) spontaneous firing rates tend to increase. This is likely an effect of residual receptor activation. As such, our current dataset is not suitable to performing in depth analysis of the effects of the different glutamate receptors on spontaneous firing rates. As this study aims to explore UBC responses to MF inputs we feel that specific experiments to address the issue of spontaneous firing rates are outside of the scope.

      As the reviewers points out there are indeed different ways the firing rates can be normalized for display in the heatmaps, and different normalizations have been used in different figures. We have made sure that the method for normalization is clearly indicated in the figure legends for each of the heatmaps on display, specifying the protocol and drug application used for normalization.

      Figure 1 shows examples of how Fast, Mid-range, Slow, and OFF UBCs respond to in vivo MF firing patterns, but lacks a summary of how the input is transformed across a population of UBCs. In panel d, it looks as if the phase of firing becomes more delayed across the examples from Fast to OFF UBCs. Quantifying this input/output relationship more thoroughly would strengthen these results.

      The UBC responses to in vivo MF firing patterns are intriguing and we agree that there appears to be increasing delays for slower UBCs visible in Figure 1. However, we feel that the true in vivo MF firing patterns are too complex and irregular for rigorous interpretation. Therefore, we only tested simplified burst and smooth pursuit-like input patterns on the full population of UBCs. Here we indeed do see increasingly delayed responses as UBCs get slower (Fig. 4).

      Inhibition was pharmacologically blocked in these studies. Golgi cells and other inhibitory interneurons likely contribute to how UBCs transform input signals. Speculation of how GABAergic and glycinergic synaptic inhibition may contribute additional context to help readers understand how a circuit with intact inhibition may behave. 

      As indicated in our response to reviewer 1, we have added a section discussing the very important issue of inhibition and UBC responses in vivo.   

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Including recordings without inhibition blocked would strengthen the study and provide a more comprehensive view of the transformations made by UBCs at the input stage of the cerebellar cortex.

      See response to public comments.   

      (2) The authors claim that a continuum of temporal responses was observed in UBCs, but they also distinguish between fast, mid-range, slow, and OFF UBCs. While some UBCs fire spontaneously, others are activated by MF inputs. A more thorough classification effort would clarify the various response profiles observed under specific MF stimulation regimes. Have the authors considered using machine learning algorithms to aid in classification? 

      We fundamentally feel that these response properties do not conform to rigid categories. In our previous work we have shown that UBC population constitutes a continuum in terms of gene expression, and in terms of spontaneous and evoked firing patterns. While in order to answer some questions empirically it may still be useful to apply advanced algorithms to enforce separate groups to be compared, in this work we aimed to present the full range of UBC responses without introducing any additional biases that such methods would produce.

      (3) A robust classification could assist in quantifying the temporal shifts observed during smooth pursuit-like MF stimulation, a critical outcome of the study.

      As stated above, we prefer to present an unbiased overview of the continuous nature of the UBC population, as we believe that this is fundamentally the most accurate representation. While it is true that this prevents us from providing a quantification in the different temporal shifts, we believe that the range of shifts across the population is sufficiently large and continuously varying the be convincing (see Figure 4d).  

      (4) In Figure 5, contrary to what is described on page 10, Cells 10 and 11 (OFF UBCs) appear to behave differently, as mGluR1 does not seem to affect their firing rates. A specific case should be made for OFF UBCs. 

      Indeed, cells 10 and 11 do not show clear increases in firing and are not strongly affected by blocking of mGluR1. However, as discussed above and explored in our previous work, we feel that the range of UBC increases in firing is best described as a continuum, including the extreme where increases in firing are no longer clearly observable. As the aim in this work is to describe this continuum of responses for physiologically relevant inputs, we do not feel there is a benefit to creating a specific case for OFF UBCs here. It should be pointed out that the number of “pure” OFF UBCs completely lacking an mGluR1 component is very small.  

      (5) A summary diagram should be added at the end of the manuscript to highlight the key temporal features observed in this study. 

      This is a great suggestion and we have prepared such a summary diagram (Figure 6).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Page 3- "Assed" should be "assessed"

      (2) Page 19- "by integrating" is repeated twice

      (3) It was not noted whether the data would be made available. It could be useful for those interested in implementing UBCs in models of the cerebellar cortex.

      We agree that this data set is invaluable to those interested in implementing UBCs in models of the cerebellar cortex.  We will make the dataset available as described in the text.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) “…Given that the focus in the paper is on tissue-specific immune training, it would be helpful to know whether the ongoing presence of BCG at low levels in the profiled tissue contributes to the trained immunity phenotypes observed.”….“To address point 1, the authors could treat with anti-BCG antibiotics at 2 or 4 weeks post-BCG exposure and profile the impact on trained immunity phenotypes.”

      We thank the reviewer for this important comment. The experiment suggested by the reviewer is to treat with abx to remove BCG from the tissue from the first week post challenge for the duration of four weeks. In previous work, Kaufmann et al (PMID: 29328912) showed that after a month of antibiotics, BCG levels are reduced, but residual BCG levels still remains. Accroding to their results, while antibiotic treatment reduces the training phenotype of LKS<sup>+</sup> HSC expansion in the bone marrow, protection against TB was maintained during ex-vivo challenge of BMDMs.

      In our experiments, we are concerned that antibiotic treatment will only change the dynamics of BCG clearance, but residual BCG will remain and will limit our interpretation. Furthermore, examining the transcriptional changes we observed at early timeponts after BCG may not be relavant at 1 month post antibiotics.

      As an alternative approach, we refer to our results with an antibody to block early IFNg signaling (1-5 days; Figure S4 K-M). Here, although BCG levels are comparable between treatment and control groups, we were unable to detect any TI-related transcriptional signatures upon early aIFNg treatment. This indicates that that residual BCG is not sufficient for the TI phenotype in the spleen. We now emphasize this point in the revised version of the manuscript (see lines 335-339).

      (2) “Related to the point about BCG above, it would be helpful to understand whether this is a specifically time-limited requirement when trained immunity is first induced, or whether ongoing signaling through this axis is required for maintenance of the observed trained immunity phenotypes.”… “To address point 2, authors could treat with the inhibitor at 2 weeks and/or 4 weeks post-BCG and profiling later transcriptional and/or salmonella growth phenotypes.”

      We thank the reviewer for his comment, but respectfully claim that this experiment might not be feasible. As IFNg signaling is directly required for control of Salmonella infection,  we are concerned that late IFNg inhibition will also directly affect the response to Salmonella challenge and control. Thus, in our experiments, to ensure that treatment only affects the response to BCG challenge, we were careful to limit aIFNg treatment to the early time points and allowed long resting period before Salmonella challenge.

      Furthermore, inhibition of IFNg at late time point was already tested in both Lee et al, and Tran et al. (PMID: 38036767, 38302603). The authors show that late blockage of IFNg signalling (days 14-21) is sufficient to prevent protection during a viral challenge. This would indeed imply that ongoing signalling is necessary in this context to generate protection, specifically also late signalling events. Furthermore, Lee at al., also observed a biphasic activation pattern of cytokines and recruited cells, suggesting that rather than continuous activation, sequential cell activation and signalling may be occurring.

      Respectfully, in our experiments we focus on the early time points based on our observations of early recruitment of CM-T cells (Figure S2. C-D). This was our main findings of this paper. We agree with the reviewer that future experiments are required to compare the differences in cell populations that are invovled in the early vs. late trained phenotpe dynamics.

      Minor points:

      Experimental conditions for the shown data are not consistently clear from the figure legends- would add more detail about the biological conditions.

      OK – done

      Figure 3E missing units on the legend

      OK – done

      Figure 4C middle panel missing y-axis label

      OK – done

      Line 40- remove "both"

      OK- done

      Line 156- Language could be clearer about what was described previously in contrast to the results shown in this work

      We have modified the text accordingly in the revised manuscript

      Reviewer #2:

      “A significant amount of work has already been performed for this study. The work is rich with data and description.”

      We thank the reviewer for acknowledging the importance of our work.

      Minor comments for the authors to consider:

      “BCG is widely recognised to induce trained immunity. In this study, Salmonella is used as secondary infection event. Why? What is role of Salmonella in this study? Does this study contribute to our understanding of the Salmonella infection process? What does this tell us about Salmonella/vaccines? Is there any evidence that BCG protects against Salmonella infection? “

      We thank the reviewer for this important comment. We now added to the introduction and the discussion the relevance of our study to the potential of BCG and trained immunity as an alternative heterologous vaccine approach to traditional vaccines that require strain-specific vaccine for each pathogen (lines 49-55 of the revised manuscript).

      “Figure 1E. RPM cannot be detected by scRNAseq?”

      The reviewer is correct. we excluded RPMs from the scRNA-seq analysis. As we discuss in the manuscript (lines 94-96), and in our previous publication (PMID: 34788598), RPM activation involves rapid cell death. As we are analyzing by scRNA-seq two weeks after BCG challenge, we only measured scRNA-seq of CD11b+ cells, which exclude RPMs, as we were worried that our transcriptional data would represent transcriptional signatures of dying cells, making interpretation of the data difficult.

      “Figures 1H and I. The CM-T macrophages are not represented? Are they contemplated within the CM population? Would be useful to see the contribution of CM-T to the total CM DEGs/pathways.”

      The reviewer is correct. CM-T cells are evident only after BCG challenge. Because of this, our analysis of DEGs induced in monocytes by BCG requires analysis of all monocytes together. Thus, we were careful throughout the manuscript to refer to CM when analyzing bulk RNA-seq data.

      “Lines 104-117. Can the authors summarise or move the text in this paragraph to discussion? Although it provides important context, it cuts the line of thought and reduces comprehension of this section. “

      OK – we moved this section to the discussion in the revised manuscript.

      “Line 127. Is it Fig 1I or 1F that the authors are referring to? “

      The reviewer is correct, and we changed the text in the revised manuscipt accordingly.

      “Figure 1J. x-axis labels CM cells but both text and figure legend refer to this panel as CM-T. If this is the case, please show data for CM and CM-T separately.”

      Please see our earlier point above that limits these analyses. As such we have also edited the text and figure legend to reflect this.

      “Lines 136-139. Please indicate that this can be found in Fig 1J.”

      OK – indicated in the revised manuscript

      “Line 152. Please add that STm infection occurred at 14 and 60 days post training.”

      OK – added

      “Lines 162-163. This is repeated from lines 89-90, maybe the reduction of RPMs can be only highlighted in this section so that the previous section can be just focused on the new CM-T population?”

      The reviewer is correct - we removed the mention of RPMs here, and mention them only later in the revised manuscript.

      “Line 163. The recruitment is CM or CM-T cells? Since they express CXCL9 (line 165 and Fig1J) could this be used as a marker for the CM-T population at this time point?”

      The reviewer is correct, and we thank him for this important comment. We now indicate that CXCL9+ is a marker for the CM-Ts population here and throughout the revised manuscript (lines 153-155 of the revised manuscript).

      “Line 173. The loss of CXCL9 at 60 dpi means that CM-T population disappears/reduces or returns to CM only? If the population is reduced, could it be related to the reduced STm infection control at 60 days?”

      OK– done. Referred to these cells as CM-Ts and suggested a correlation with protection loss in the text (lines 160-162 of the revised manuscript).

      “Figure 2D. Can the authors show if there is variation in the myeloid populations after PBS injection at different time points? Are the percentages shown only at 3 dpi? It is curious that at 30 dpi the transcriptome has a significant change for certain genes.”

      There are indeed variations across the PBS time points samples, which we demonstrate in Figure S2B. The percentages shown in the main figure for PBS reflect the mean of all time points, this is now stated in greater clarity in the revised manuscript (lines 151-152). We also noted an increase in the cell cycling genes at D30 for the control mice as well, and while still significant in BCG, we limited interpretation accordingly.

      “Line 208. The authors can highlight that the expression of STAT1 follows the same pattern as IFNg. Maybe even present the graphs side by side?”

      The reviewer is correct, and we have implemented their suggestion as such in the updated text (lines 192-195) and figure (Fig. 2H).

      “Line 213. Authors mention a replenishment of the RPM population - what time point are you referring to? At 60 dpi the population seems to be halved compared to 14 dpi. Later (line 230), authors refer to the replenishment as a repopulation by other cell types - is repopulation more correct than replenishment?”

      The reviewer is correct, and we thank the reviewer for this important comment. We now changed replenishment to repopulation (lines 95, 201), which is more accurate given the continued decreased percentage at later time points.

      Lines 214-222. It is not clear what is the conclusion from these experiments: is the recruitment of progenitors from the BM or by local signals?

      The reviewer is correct, we agree that the wording in the initial manuscript was imprecise. This experiment specifically tests whether trained bone marrow progenitors can sustain the observed TI signatures in a naive environment. By transplanting trained bone marrow into naive hosts, we demonstrate that progenitor programming alone is sufficient to maintain long-term SCA-1 expression in NCMs, without requiring ongoing local tissue signals. We now better clarify this text in the revised manuscript (lines 202-212).

      “Line 333-334. Where is the data that shows that upon Fedratinib RPMs have enhanced survival?”

      OK – We now indicate the figure in the revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1:

      Chemogenetics validation

      Little validation is provided for the chemogenetic manipulations. The authors report that animals were excluded due to lack of expression but do not quantify/document the extent of expression in the animals that were included in the study.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this oversight. We have added additional examples of virus expression in sections from included and excluded animals in Figure 1 – Supplement 1. We also added additional comments on the extent of expression we observed in lines 92-95: “Post-experiment histology confirmed overlapping virus expression and TH-positive neurons in putative VTA near the injection site (-5.6 mm AP from bregma), as well as approximately 0.5 mm anterior and posterior (-5 to -6 mm AP).”

      There's no independent verification that VTA was actually inhibited by the chemogenetic manipulation besides the experimental effects of interest.

      While we did include animals expressing control virus to control for any effect of CNO administration itself, the reviewer is correct that we did not independently verify VTA neurons were inhibited. We have noted this limitation of the current study on lines 513-522 in the Discussion: “We did not directly measure the suppression of VTA neurons after CNO injection. Previous work in other brain areas found hM4Di activation suppressed firing rates to around 60% of baseline (Mahler et al., 2014; Chang et al., 2015), in addition to diminishing synaptic transmission even when spikes occurred (Stachniak et al., 2014). Combined with the incomplete expression of hM4Di in TH-positive neurons in our animals, we expect VTA activity was significantly but not completely suppressed. Because our results depend only on any degree of blunting differences in dopamine release at different reward locations, rather than the total absence of dopamine signaling, measuring the magnitude of suppression was not essential for our conclusions.”

      The authors report a range of CNO doses. What determined the dose that each rat received? Was it constant for an individual rat? If not, how was the dose determined? The authors may wish to examine whether any of their CNO effects were dependent on dose.

      The reviewer is completely correct that we omitted sufficient information regarding the dosage of CNO used in each animal and each session. We have included more details in the Methods lines 676-694, detailing both the doses and the rationale.

      The authors tested the same animal multiple times per day with relatively little time between recording sessions. Can they be certain that the effect of CNO wore off between sessions? Might successive CNO injections in the same day have impacted neural activity in the VTA differently? Could the chemogenetic manipulation have grown stronger with each successive injection (or maybe weaker due to something like receptor desensitization)? The authors could test statistically whether the effects of CNO that they report do not depend on the number of CNO injections a rat received over a short period of time.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing up the question of whether the order of sessions had an influence on the efficacy of CNO in inactivating VTA activity. To address this, we split our dataset in Experiment 1 into two based on what number session of the particular day it was: 1st sessions of the day vs. all subsequent sessions (2nd+ session of the day). Then, we examined the difference in sharp-wave ripple rate between the reward ends in Epoch 2, as in Figure 2D of the manuscript. Though the resulting number of sessions in each split of the dataset is too low to draw strong statistical conclusions, particularly for novel sessions, we see little evidence there is any systematic change in the effect of VTA inactivation as a function of session number in the day. We include this in the revised manuscript as Figure 2 – Supplement 3 and in the Results lines 255-258.

      Motivational considerations

      In a similar vein, running multiple sessions per day raises the possibility that rats' motivation was not constant across all data collection time points. The authors could test whether any measures of motivation (laps completed, running speed) changed across the sessions conducted within the same day.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We examined behavioral measures of motivation across sessions conducted within the same day. First, we calculated how many total laps each animal completed each session as a function of the session number of the day. In individual animals, this ranged from -2.8 to 4.1 laps per additional session number (mean 2.01), with an average total laps per session of 43.2 laps. Second, we calculated the median running velocity per session, across both running directions and all epochs, and checked how it varied across session number of the day. Per additional session in the day, this ranged from -3.6 to 8.6 cm/s difference across animals (mean 2.7 cm/s), with an average running velocity of 34.1 cm/s in total. Taken together, while we found little behavioral evidence of strong motivational changes across session, our animals may have been slightly more motivated in later sessions in the day, which also corresponded to later in the light cycle and closer to the dark cycle. We mention this information in Results lines 255-258, related to Figure 2 – Supplement 3.

      This is a particularly tricky issue, because my read of the methods is that saline sessions were only conducted as the first session of any recording day, which means there's a session order/time of day and potential motivational confound in comparing saline to CNO sessions.

      We have clarified the ordering of CNO and saline sessions in the Methods lines 697-702. Briefly, we avoided running CNO sessions before saline sessions in the same day, but either could be the first session of a day. That is, saline -> saline, saline -> CNO, and CNO -> CNO were all valid orderings. On days with more than two sessions, any number of repeated saline and CNO sessions was permitted, provided that as soon as a CNO session occurred, any subsequent sessions were also CNO.

      More generally, we shared this reviewer’s concern about potential confounds between drug and motivation. For novel sessions in Experiment 1, each animal had equal numbers of saline and CNO 1st and 2nd sessions of the day. For familiar sessions, animals had similar counts for 1st sessions of the day (experimental rats: 20 saline, 16 CNO; control rats: 17 saline, 15 CNO) but more CNO 2nd sessions of the day (experimental rats: 5 saline, 13 CNO; control rats: 5 saline, 10 CNO). There were occasionally 3rd or 4th sessions in a given day for some rats, and these were also approximately equal (experimental rat 2, 3rd sessions: 2 each of saline and CNO, 4th session: 1 saline; experimental rat 3 and 4, 3rd sessions: 1 each of saline and CNO; control rat 2, 3rd session: 1 saline).

      Statistics, statistical power, and effect sizes

      Throughout the manuscript, the authors employ a mixture of t-tests, ANOVAs, and mixed-effects models. Only the mixed effects models appropriately account for the fact that all of this data involves repeated measurements from the same subject. The t-tests are frequently doubly inappropriate because they both treat repeated measures as independent and are not corrected for multiple comparisons.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out these issues with our statistical analyses in places. We have made the following improvements:

      Figure 1F-I, S1, reward end visit durations: We now use a linear mixed-effects model to analyze the difference in stopping period durations between epochs. For each session, we calculated the mean stopping duration for each reward end in each epoch, then modeled the difference between epochs as a function of drug and novelty, with animal-specific intercepts. For example, related to Figure 1F and also described in the Results, we modeled the stopping duration difference at the Unchanged reward end, Epoch 2 – Epoch 1, and found experimental rats had a significant intercept (Epoch 2 stops shorter than Epoch 1) and the drug × novelty interaction, while control rats had a significant intercept and novelty main effect. The other visit duration analysis shown in Figure 1 – Supplement 1 have similarly been updated.

      Figure 2D-E, ripple rate difference between reward ends in Epoch 2: We now use a linear mixed-effects model to analyze the difference between ripple rates at the Incr. and Unch. reward ends in Epoch 2. For each session, we calculated the mean ripple rate at each end in Epoch 2, then modeled the difference as a function of drug and novelty, with animal-specific intercepts. With the full stopping periods, for experimental rats, there was a significant intercept (ripple rate at Incr. greater than Unch.) and the model with drug included performed significantly better than the one without it (AIC<sub>nodrug</sub> – AIC<sub>full</sub> = 5.22). Control rats had a significant intercept and effect of novelty (greater difference with novelty), and the model excluding drug terms performed better (AIC<sub>nodrug</sub> – AIC<sub>full</sub> = -3.54). Results with the trimmed stopping periods were similar. These analyses are described in Results lines 253-266.   

      Figure 3D-E, ripple rate as a function of reward history: We now use a mixed-effects model that incorporates animal-specific intercepts. The results remained similar and have been updated in the text and legend.

      Figure 4D-K, replay rates as a function of drug, novelty, and directionality: We now use mixed-effects models that incorporate animal-specific intercepts rather than three-way ANOVA. The results remained similar and have been updated in the text and legend.

      The number of animals in these studies is on the lower end for this sort of work, raising questions about whether all of these results are statistically reliable and likely to generalize. This is particularly pronounced in the reward volatility experiment, where the number of rats in the experimental group is halved to just two. The results of this experiment are potentially very exciting, but the sample size makes this feel more like pilot data than a finished product.

      We have added additional emphasis in the text that the experimental group results of CNO inactivation in the volatile reward task should be confirmed with future work, in Discussion line 529-533. Because these experiments were performed on familiar tracks, we see them as corroborating/complementing the results from Experiment 1. Although the analysis assumes VTA inactivation had no effect, our pooling of all Experiment 2 data to display in Figure 3 – Supplement 2 maximized our ability to analyze the effects of volatile reward deliveries on sharp-wave ripple rates, lending further support to the main results shown in Figure 3.

      The effect sizes of the various manipulations appear to be relatively modest, and I wonder if the authors could help readers by contextualizing the magnitude of these results further. For instance, when VTA inactivation increases mis-localization of SWRs to the unchanged end of the track, roughly how many misplaced sharp-waves are occurring within a session, and what would their consequence be? On this particular behavioral task, it's not clear that the animals are doing worse in any way despite the mislocalization of sharp-waves. And it seems like the absolute number of extra sharp-waves that occur in some of these conditions would be quite small over the course of a session, so it would be helpful if the authors could speculate on how these differences might translate to meaningful changes in processes like consolidation, for instance.

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful suggestion to give some context to the difference in sharp-wave ripple numbers and the functional consequence of these changes. We agree completely that this task is almost certainly too simple for animals to show any performance deficit from these changes. We chose this precisely so we could examine the consequences of VTA inactivation to the sharp-wave ripple response to reward changes per se, without any confound of performance or memory changes that could also conceivably alter sharp-wave ripples. We have added both more context about the magnitude and consequence of these sharp-wave ripple changes as well as comments about the choice of this particular task (Discussion lines 522-529).  

      How directly is reward affecting sharp-wave rate?

      Changes in reward magnitude on the authors' task cause rats to reallocate how much time they spent at each end. Coincident with this behavioral change, the authors identify changes in the sharp-wave rate, and the assumption is that changing reward is altering the sharp-wave rate. But it also seems possible that by inducing longer pauses, increased reward magnitude is affecting the hippocampal network state and creating an occasion for more sharp-waves to occur. It's possible that any manipulation so altering rats' behavior would similarly affect the sharp-wave rate.

      For instance, in the volatility experiment, on trials when no reward is given sharp-wave rate looks like it is effectively zero. But this rate is somewhat hard to interpret. If rats hardly stopped moving on trials when no reward was given, and the hippocampus remained in a strong theta network state for the full duration of the rat's visit to the feeder, the lack of sharp-waves might not reflect something about reward processing so much as the fact that the rat's hippocampus didn't have the occasion to emit a sharp-wave. A better way to compute the sharp-wave rate might be to use not the entire visit duration in the denominator, but rather the total amount of time the hippocampus spends in a non-theta state during each visit. Another approach might be to include visit duration as a covariate with reward magnitude in some of the analyses. Increasing reward magnitude seems to increase visit duration, but these probably aren't perfectly correlated, so the authors might gain some leverage by showing that on the rare long visit to a low-reward end sharp-wave rate remains reliably low. This would help exclude the explanation that sharp-wave rate follows increases in reward magnitude simply because longer pauses allow a greater opportunity for the hippocampus to settle into a non-theta state.

      We thank the reviewer for these important comments. We have better clarified the analysis of sharp-wave ripple rate in the Results (lines 172-173). To speak to the main concern of the reviewer, we do only consider times during “stopping periods” when the rat is actually stationary. That is, ripple rate for each visit is calculated as (# of ripples / total stationary time), rather than the full duration the rat is at the track end. With respect to including visit duration as a covariate, the Poisson model takes the total stationary time of each visit into account, so that it is effectively predicting the number of events (ripples) per unit of time (seconds) given the particular experimental variables (reward condition, drug condition, etc.). We have added additional clarification of this in the Methods (line 834-836).

      The authors seem to acknowledge this issue to some extent, as a few analyses have the moments just after the rat's arrival at a feeder and just before departure trimmed out of consideration. But that assumes these sorts of non-theta states are only occurring at the very beginning and very end of visits when in fact rats might be doing all sorts of other things during visits that could affect the hippocampus network state and the propensity to observe sharp-waves.

      We hope that with the clarification provided above, this control analysis helps remove any potential effects of approaching/leaving behavior or differences in movement at the reward end that could alter sharp-wave ripple rates. 

      Minor issues

      The title/abstract should reflect that only male animals were used in this study.

      We have added this important information to the Abstract line 21.

      The title refers to hippocampal replay, but for much of the paper the authors are measuring sharp-wave rate and not replay directly, so I would favor a more nuanced title.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. In the context of our work, we consider sharp-wave ripples as more-easily-detected markers for the occurrence of replay. Previous work from our lab (Ambrose et al., 2016) showed the effect of reward changes had very similar effects to both sharp-wave ripple rate and replay rate. We try to be explicit about viewing ripples as markers of replay content in both the Introduction and Discussion. Nevertheless, we do also demonstrate the title claim directly – by measuring replay and its spatial localization – therefore we feel comfortable with the title as it is.

      Relatedly, the interpretation of the mislocalization of sharp-waves following VTA inactivation suggests that the hippocampus is perhaps representing information inappropriately/incorrectly for consolidation, as the increased rate is observed both for a location that has undergone a change in reward and one that has not. However, the authors are measuring replay rate, not replay content. It's entirely possible that the "mislocalized" replays at the unchanged end are, in fact, replaying information about the changed end of the track. A bit more nuance in the discussion of this effect would be helpful.

      While we do show that replay content, in the form of reverse vs. forward replays, is altered with VTA inactivation, we take the reviewers point and completely agree. Especially in the context of the linear track, replays at either end could certainly be updating/consolidating information about both ends. We would argue our results suggest VTA is critical to localizing ripples and replay in more complex environments where this is not the case, but this is a hypothesis. We have added clarification and discussion of this point (Discussion lines 522-529).

      However, in response to the reviewer’s comment, we have now also examined non-locally-initiated replays specifically to determine whether the increased ripple rate at the Unch. reward end in novel CNO sessions was likely due to more non-local replay, but found no significant increases in non-local replay at either reward end in either drug condition or novelty condition. We have included this result as Figure 4 – Supplement 3, and note it in the Results lines 487-488.

      The authors use decoding accuracy during movement to determine which sessions should be included for decoding of replay direction. Details on cross-validation are omitted and would be appreciated. Also, the authors assume that sessions failed to meet inclusion criteria because of ensemble size, but this information is not reported anywhere directly. More info on the ensemble size of included/excluded sessions would be helpful.

      We have added additional information about the run decoding procedure and related session inclusion criteria, as well as about recorded ensemble sizes (lines 417-421). Briefly, mean ensemble sizes were significantly smaller for excluded sessions (cell count, mean±sem; included sessions: 26.1±1.1, excluded sessions: 9.5±1.6; two-sample t-test, t(133)=5.3, p<10<sup>-5</sup>). The average field size, defined as the number of spatial bins with greater than 1 hz firing rate, in excluded sessions was also larger (mean±sem, included sessions: 47.7±1.3, excluded sessions: 57.7±5.8; two-sample t-test, t(133)=-2.33, p<0.05), though the difference was less dramatic. Using a mixed effects model to predict position decoding error (as in Figure 4 – Supplement 2A) as a function of drug, novelty, cell count, and mean place field size, in both experimental and control groups cell count and field size were significant predictors: more cells and smaller average field size led to lower error. A similar model that instead predicted the fraction of running bins with correctly decoded running direction (as in Figure 4 – Supplement 2B), in neither group was field size significant, while cell count remained so: more cells led to more bins with running direction correctly classified. We include these analyses in the legend for the figure. With respect to cross validation of run decoding, because both the contribution of spikes in any single time bin to a neuron’s place field is extremely small and because we used run decoding accuracy simply to filter out sessions with poorer decoding, we did not use cross validation here.

      For most of the paper, the authors detect sharp-waves using ripple power in the LFP, but for the analysis of replay direction, they use a different detection procedure based on the population firing rate of recorded neurons. Was there a reason for this switch? It's somewhat difficult to compare reported sharpwave/replay rates of the analyses given that different approaches were used.

      We have added clarification for this change in detecting candidate events (lines 787-789). Briefly, sharp-wave ripples and spike density events are often but not always overlapping, such that there can be strong ripples with little spiking in the recorded ensemble or weak/absent ripples during vigorous spiking in the recorded ensemble. Because the decoding of replay content relies on spiking, our lab and others often use spike density or population burst events as candidate events. We have confirmed that the main results of Experiment 1 (e.g., Figure 2) remain the same if we use spike density events rather than sharp-wave ripples, but prefer to keep the use of sharp-wave ripples here for better comparison with Experiment 2 and to allow the inclusion of animals and sessions with low cell yield but clear ripples in the LFP.  

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Include additional histological data to confirm the extent of viral spread and precise tetrode placements. Providing detailed figures that clearly illustrate these aspects would strengthen the validity of the neural recordings and the specificity of the chemogenetic silencing.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and have added additional information regarding virus expression in Figure 1 – Supplement 1. We also added additional comments on the extent of expression we observed in lines 92-95: “Post-experiment histology confirmed overlapping virus expression and TH-positive neurons in putative VTA near the injection site (-5.6 mm AP from bregma), as well as approximately 0.5 mm anterior and posterior (-5 to -6 mm AP).”

      While we do not show histological confirmation of hippocampal recording sites, the presence of sharp-wave ripples with upward deflections, presence of place cells, and recording coordinates and depth typical of dorsal CA1 made us confident in our recording location. We have noted these characteristics of our recordings in lines 128-131 in the Results: “Tetrodes were lowered to the pyramidal cell layer of dCA1, using the presence of sharp-wave ripples with upward deflections in the LFP, recording depth characteristic of dCA1, and spatially-restricted firing of place cells to confirm the recording location.”

      Address the variability in CNO dosing and timing before recordings. It is recommended to standardize the dose and ensure a consistent timing interval between CNO administration and the start of recordings to minimize variability in the effects observed across different subjects. Instead of collecting new data, the authors could report the data for each animal, indicating the dose and interval between the injection and the recording.

      We have further clarified the CNO dosing and timings in lines 676-702.

      In Figure 1F, explicitly state whether the data represent averages across multiple sessions and confirm if these observations are primarily from the initial novel sessions. This clarification will help in accurately interpreting the effects of novelty on the measured neural activities.

      We have changed the analyses shown in Figure 1F-I and Figure 1 – Supplement 1 thanks to the suggestions of Reviewer #1, but also more clearly spell out the analysis. Briefly, we average the durations for each condition within session (e.g., take the mean Unch. duration in Epoch 1), then perform the analysis across sessions. These data come from all sessions in Experiment 1, as described in lines 141-147, meaning there are around 2-3 times as many familiar sessions as novel sessions.

      Reconsider the reporting of marginal p-values (e.g., p=0.055). If the results are borderline significant, either more data should be collected to robustly demonstrate the effects or a statistical discussion should be included to address the implications of these marginal findings.

      We have removed the reporting of marginal p-values.

      Ensure that the axes and scales are consistent across similar figures (specifically mentioned for Figure 2A) to prevent misinterpretation of the data. Consider showing the average across all animals in 2A, similar to 2B and 2C.

      We have adjusted these axes to be consistent across all panels.

      Add a legend to the heatmap in Figure 4A to facilitate understanding of the data presented.

      We have added a heatmap to the figure and legend.

      Provide a detailed examination and discussion of the apparent contradictions observed in control data, particularly where experimental conditions with saline show increased reverse replay in novel environments, which is absent in familiar sessions. See Figures 4E and 4I.

      We thank the reviewer for noting that this feature of our data deserved discussion. We confirmed that the lack of an effect of reward on reverse replay rates in familiar sessions in control rats was due to generally low replay rates in these sessions. Replay rates have been observed to decrease as the familiarity of an environment or behavior increases, and the presence of the reward-related modulation of reverse replay in novel sessions in these animals is consistent with this observation. We now report in the Results lines 458-459 and 485-486 the low replay rates in this group in familiar sessions, and the likelihood that this is preventing any reward-related modulation from being detected.

      Include a more detailed analysis of place cell properties, such as firing rates and field sizes, especially in novel environments where VTA inactivation appears to alter spatial coding. Decoding error is lower during CNO administration - does this mean place fields are smaller/more accurate? This analysis could offer deeper insights into the mechanisms by which dopamine influences hippocampal neural representations and memory processes.

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful suggestion. We have expanded on our analysis of place field properties and decoding accuracy, describing properties of sessions with good enough decoding to be included compared to those that were excluded (lines 417-421). We also directly tested how decoding quality depended on several factors, including drug condition, novelty, number of cells recorded, and the average place field size of recorded cells (see legend for Figure 4 – Supplement 2). We found a small but significant effect of drug in experimental rats, but larger effects of number of recorded cells and average field size, that were also present in control animals.

      Correct the typo on line 722 from "In ANOVA" to "An ANOVA".

      We reworded this section and have corrected this error.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The manuscript is clear and exciting. As a main criticism, I would have liked to see the effects on ripple duration not just the rate.

      We thank the reviewer for this interesting idea. We performed a new analysis, similar to our analysis on SWR rate, probing the effect of our experimental manipulations on SWR duration in experimental rats. We have added the results in Figure 2 – Supplement 4, and note them in the main text lines 195-198: “SWR duration was reduced in novel sessions, consistent with replays becoming longer with increased familiarity  (Berners-Lee et al., 2021), as well as in Epoch 2, but was otherwise unaffected by reward or drug (Figure 2 – Supplement 4).”

      I have a few other minor comments:

      (1) I find it a little disturbing and counterintuitive that statistical differences are not always depicted in the figure graphs (for example Figures 2A-E). If the authors don't like to use the traditional *, ** or *** they could either just use one symbol to depict significance or simply depict the actual p values.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We struggled with indicating significance values graphically in an intuitive way for interaction terms in the figures. We now added significance indicators in Figures 1F-I, added the significant model coefficients directly into Figure 2B-C, changed the analysis depicted in Figure 2D-E per Reviewer 1’s suggestions, and added significance indicators where previously missing in Figures 3 and 4.

      (2) Related to the point above: in the page 7 legend D and E, it would be advantageous for clarity of the experimental results to also perform post-hoc analyses as depicted in the graphs, rather than just describe the p-value of the 3way ANOVA;

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. Because the figure includes the mean and standard error of each condition, in addition to the significant effects of the mixed-effects model, we prefer the current format as it makes clearer the statistical tests that were performed while still allowing visual appreciation of differences between specific experimental conditions of interest to the reader.

      (3) According to Figure 1H, the duration of the reward visits can go up to 15s (or more). Yet in Figure 2A only the first 10sec were analyzed. While I understand the rationale for using the initial 10 seconds where there is a lot more data, the results of graphs of Figures A to C will not have the same data/rate as Figures D-F where I assume the entire duration of the visit is taken into account.

      A figure showing what happening to the ripple rate during the visits >10sec would help interpret the results of Figure 2.

      We thank the reviewer for these interesting suggestions. We clarify now that all these analyses of Experiment 1 use only the first 10 s of each stopping period in Method line 758-764. However, examining the longer stopping periods is an excellent suggestion, and we re-analyzed the Experiment 1 dataset using up to the first 20 s of each stopping period. The main results (e.g., Figure 2) remain the same:

      (1) Related to Figure 2B-C: For experimental rats, a mixed-effects generalized linear model predicting sharp-wave ripple rate as a function of reward end, block, drug, novelty, and interactions, had the following significant terms: drug (p<10<sup>-5</sup>), novelty (p<10<sup>-10</sup>), reward end × block (p<10<sup>-10</sup>), and reward end × block × drug (p<0.05). The same model in control rats had significant terms: reward end (p<0.05), novelty (p<10<sup>-4</sup>), reward end × block (p<10<sup>-10</sup>).

      (2) Related to Figure 2D-E: For experimental rats, we used a mixed-effects generalized linear model predicting the difference in sharp-wave ripple rate between the Incr. and Unch. reward ends in Epoch 2 as a function of novelty, drug, and their interaction. Model comparison found the full model performed better than a model removing the drug terms (AIC<sub>nodrug</sub> – AIC<sub>full</sub> = 2.94), while a model with only the intercept performed even worse (AIC<sub>intercept</sub> – AIC<sub>full</sub> = 13.76). For control rats, model comparison found the full model was equivalent to a model with only the intercept (AICintercept – AICfull = -0.36), with both modestly better than a model with no drug terms (AIC<sub>nodrug</sub> – AIC<sub>full</sub> = 1.38).

      We have added a remark that results remain the same using this longer time window in Methods line 758-764.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Yamawaki et al., conducted a series of neuroanatomical tracing and whole cell recording experiments to elucidate and characterise a relatively unknown pathway between the endopiriform (EN) and CA1 of the ventral hippocampus (vCA1) and to assess its functional role in social and object recognition using fibre photometry and dual vector chemogenetics. The main findings were that the EN sends robust projections to the vCA1 that collateralise to the prefrontal cortex, lateral entorhinal cortex and piriform cortex, and these EN projection neurons terminate in the stratum lacunosum-moleculare (SLM) layer of distal vCA1, synapsing onto GABAergic neurons that span across the Pyramidal-Stratum Radiatum (SR) and SR-SML borders. It was also demonstrated that EN input disynaptically inhibits vCA1 pyramidal neurons. vCA1 projecting EN neurons receive afferent input from piriform cortex, and from within EN. Finally, fibre photometry experiments revealed that vCA1 projecting EN neurons are most active when mice explore novel objects or conspecifics, and pathway-specific chemogenetic inhibition led to an impairment in the ability to discriminate between novel vs. familiar objects and conspecifics.

      The authors have addressed most of my concerns, but a few weaknesses remain :<br /> (1) I expected to see the addition of raw interaction times with objects and conspecifics for each phase of social testing (pre-test, sociability test, social discrimination), as per my comment on including raw data. However, the authors only provided total distance traveled and velocity, and total interaction time in Figure S9, which is less informative.

      We apologies for missing the request. We have added the raw interaction times in Fig. S9G.

      (2) The authors observed increased activity in vCA1-projecting EN neurons tracking with the preferred object during the pre-test (object-object exploration) phase of the social tests, and the summary schematic (Figure 9A) depicts animals as showing a preference for one object over the other (although they are identical) in both the social and object recognition tests. However, in the chemogenetic experiment, the data (Fig S9B) indicate that animals did not show this preference for one object over another, making the expected baseline for this task unclear. This also raises an important question of whether the lack of effect from chemogenetic inhibition of vCA1-projecting EN neurons could be attributed to the absence of this baseline preference.

      We appreciate the comments. In Fig. S9B, although the group median at baseline (pretest) showed no preference for one object, individual subjects displayed a preference for one object (i.e., each data point deviated positively or negatively from 0.5) in saline condition. Therefore, we do not think that a lack of baseline preference accounts for the absence of the inhibition effect in the pretest.

      Additionally, the finding that vCA1-projecting EN activity is associated with the preferred object exploration appears to counter the authors' argument that novelty engages this circuit (since both objects are novel in this instance). This discrepancy warrants further discussion.

      This is an interesting point. One possibility is that during the pretest, EN activity simply "reports" or "represents" the interaction time without driving exploratory preference. This aligns with our DREADD experiment data, which show that inhibition of EN neurons produced no overall behavioral effect. Innate exploratory behavior has been attributed to various circuits, including the medial preoptic area → PAG circuit (Ryoo et al., 2021, Front. Neuro.) and the Septal → VTA circuit (Mocellin et al., 2024, Neuron). We found no direct projection from these areas to EN (Fig. 6), but such connections could be established di- or polysynaptically. Moreover, these circuits could be driven by common inputs, such as the locus coeruleus or the cholinergic system for arousal, with only specific downstream targets, excluding EN, playing a key role in driving innate exploration and preference.

      We have inserted the following sentence in discussion (line 253-255):

      “The correlation of ENvCA1-proj. activity with novel object preference in the pretest nevertheless suggests that these neurons 'represent' the innate preference without driving it.”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Line 209: Please remove the reference to neural activity 'predicting' behavior, as correlation analysis does not imply predictive power.

      We now have changed the phrase to “Although EN<sup>vCA1-proj.</sup> activity was correlated with the behavior…”

      Line 236: It is unclear what is meant by: 'This circuit motif may predict the predominant role of ENvCA1-proj. neurons in social recognition memory'

      We have changed the sentence to the following for the clarity:

      “Since social odor information is crucial for discriminating conspecifics in rodents, this circuit motif may predict the predominant role of ENvCA1-proj. neurons in social recognition memory, given that social odor can engage multiple olfactory pathways innervating the piriform cortex.”

      Fig 7 title: insert 'with' after correlates: 'Activity of ENvCA1-proj. neurons correlates social/object discrimination performance'

      Corrected.

      Fig S1 title: 'Projecing' typo.

      Corrected.

      Fig S8: Please rephrase for clarity: 'In pretest, the object was aligned by longer interaction time (preferred object is plotted in right side)'

      We now have rephrased the sentence to:

      “In the pretest plot, the object that the mice interacted with more is placed on the right side.”

      References:

      A septal-ventral tegmental area circuit drives exploratory behavior. Mocellin, Petra et al. Neuron, Volume 112, Issue 6, 1020-1032.e7

      An inhibitory medial preoptic circuit mediates innate exploration. Ryoo, Jia et al. Front. Neurosci., 23 August 221. Volume 15- 2021

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:  

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      The authors use an innovative behavior assay (chamber preference test) and standard calcium imaging experiments on cultured dorsal root ganglion (DRG) neurons to evaluate the consequences of global knockout of TRPV1 and TRPM2, and overexpression of TRPV1, on warmth detection. They find a profound effect of TRPM2 elimination in the behavioral assay, whereas elimination of TRPV1 has the largest effect on neuronal responses. These findings are of importance, as there is still substantial discussion in the field regarding the contribution of TRP channels to different aspects of thermosensation. 

      Strengths: 

      The chamber preference test is an important innovation compared to the standard two-plate test, as it depends on thermal information sampled from the entire skin, as opposed to only the plantar side of the paws. With this assay, and the detailed analysis, the authors provide strong supporting evidence for the role of TRPM2 in warmth avoidance. The conceptual framework using the Drift Diffusion Model provides a first glimpse of how this decision of a mouse to change between temperatures can be interpreted and may form the basis for further analysis of thermosensory behavior. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The authors juxtapose these behavioral data with calcium imaging data using isolated DRG neurons. Here, there are a few aspects that are less convincing. 

      (1) The authors study warmth responses using DRG neurons after three days of culturing. They propose that these "more accurately reflect the functional properties and abundance of warm-responsive sensory neurons that are found in behaving animals." However, the only argument to support this notion is that the fraction of neurons responding to warmth is lower after three days of culture. This could have many reasons, including loss of specific subpopulations of neurons, or any other (artificial?) alterations to the neurons' transcriptome due to the culturing. The isolated DRGs are not selected in any way, so also include neurons innervating viscera not involved in thermosensation. If the authors wish to address actual changes in sensory nerves involved in warmth sensing in TRPM2 or TRPV1 KO mice without disturbing the response profile as a result of the isolation procedure, other approaches would be needed (e.g. skin-nerve recordings or in vivo DRG imaging).  

      We agree that there could be several reasons as to why the responses of cultured DRGs are reduced compared to the acute/short-term cultures. It is possible ––and likely–– that transcriptional changes happen over the course of the culturing period. It is also possible that it is a mere coincidence that the 3-day cultures have a response profile more similar to the in vivo situation than the acute cultures. In the revised manuscript, we have therefore toned down the claim that the 3-day cultures mirror the native conditions more appropriately and included the sentence “However, whether 3-day cultures resemble native sensory neurons more closely than acute cultures in terms of their (transcriptional) identity is currently unknown.” (page 5). 

      We now also included a section “Limitations of the study” and bring this point up there as well and acknolwedge that longer culturing periods may cause changes in the neurons and may result in a drift away from their native state. 

      Nevertheless, our results clearly show that acute cultures have a response profile that is much more similar to damaged/”inflamed” neurons, irrespective of any comparison to the 3 daycultures. Therefore, we believe, it is helpful to include this data to make scientists aware that acute cultures are very different to non-inflamed native/in vivo DRG neurons that many researchers use in their experiments.

      (2) The authors state that there is a reduction in warmth-sensitive DRG neurons in the TRPM2 knockout mice based on the data presented in Figure 2D. This is not convincing for the following reasons. First, the authors used t-tests (with FDR correction - yielding borderline significance) whereas three groups are compared here in three repetitive stimuli. This would require different statistics (e.g. ANOVA), and I am not convinced (based on a rapid assessment of the data) that such an analysis would yield any significant difference between WT and TRPM2 KO. Second, there seems to be a discrepancy between the plot and legend regarding the number of LOV analysed (21, 17, and 18 FOV according to the legend, compared to 18, 10, and 12 dots in the plot). Therefore, I would urge the authors to critically assess this part of the study and to reconsider whether the statement (and discussion) that "Trpm2 deletion reduces the proportion of warmth responders" should be maintained or abandoned. . 

      Yes, we agree that the statistical tests indicated by the referee are more appropriate/robust for the data shown in Figures 1F, 2D, and 4G.

      When we perform 2-way repeated measures ANOVA and subsequent multiple comparison test (with Dunnets correction) against Wildtype, for data shown in Fig. 2D, both the main effect (Genotype) and the interaction term (Stimulus x Genotype) are significant. The multiple comparison yields very similar result as in the current manuscript, with the difference that the TRPM2-KO data for the second stimulus (~36°C) is borderline significant (with a p-value of p=0.050).

      Due to the possible dependence of the repeated temperature stimuli and the variability of each stimulus between FOVs (Fig. 2C), it is possible that a mixed-effect model that accounts for these effects is more appropriate. 

      Similarly, for plots 1F and 4G, Genotype (either as main effect or as interaction with Time) is significant after a repeated measures two-way ANOVA. The multiple comparisons (with Bonferroni correction) only changed the results marginally at individual timepoints, without affecting the overall conclusions. The exception is Fig. 4G at 38°C, where the interaction of Time and Genotype is significant, but no individual timepoint-comparison is significant after Bonferroni correction.

      The main difference between the results presented above and the ones presented in the manuscript is the choice of the multiple comparison correction. We originally opted for the falsediscovery rate (FDR) approach as it is less prone to Type II errors (false negatives) than other methods such as Sidaks or Bonferroni, particularly when correcting for a large number of tests.

      However, we are mainly interested in whether the genotypes differ in their behavior in each temperature combination and the significant ANOVA tests for Fig. 1F and 4G support that point. The statistical test and comparison used in the original/previous version of the manuscript, comparing behavior at individual/distinct timepoints, are interesting, but less relevant (and potentially distracting), as we do not go into the details about the behavior at any given/distinct timepoint in the assay.

      Therefore, and per suggestion of the reviewer, we have updated the statistics in the revised version of the manuscript. Also, we now report the correct number of FOVs in the legend. The statistical details are now found in the legends of the respective figures.

      (3) It remains unclear whether the clear behavioral effect seen in the TRPM2 knockout animals is at all related to TRPM2 functioning as a warmth sensor in sensory neurons. As discussed above, the effects of the TRPM2 KO on the proportion of warmth-sensing neurons are at most very subtle, and the authors did not use any pharmacological tool (in contrast to the use of capsaicin to probe for TRPV1 in Figures S3 and S4) to support a direct involvement of TRPM2 in the neuronal warmth responses. Behavioral experiments on sensory-neuron-specific TRPM2 knockout animals will be required to clarify this important point

      As mentioned above, we have toned down the correlation between the cellular and behavioral data. 

      In the discussion we now clearly describe three possibilities as to why the Trpm2 knockout animals only show a subtle cellular thermal phenotype but a strong behavioral thermal preference phenotype: (i) permanent deletion of Trpm2 may result in developmental defects and/or compensatory mechanisms; (ii) The DRG population expressing Trpm2 may be more relevant for autonomic thermoregulation rather than behavioral responses to temperature; (iii) Trpm2 expression outside DRGs (possibly in the hypothalamic POA) may account for the altered thermal behavior. 

      (4) The authors only use male mice, which is a significant limitation, especially considering known differences in warmth sensing between male and female animals and humans. The authors state "For this study, only male animals were used, as we aimed to compare our results with previous studies which exclusively used male animals (7, 8, 17, 43)." This statement is not correct: all four mentioned papers include behavioral data from both male and female mice! I recommend the authors to either include data from female mice or to clearly state that their study (in comparison with these other studies) only uses male mice.  

      This is a valid point -- when our study started 7-8 years ago, we only used male mice (as did many other researchers) and this we would now do differently. We have now newly included a statement concerning this limitation in the “Limitations of this study” section of the manuscript. 

      Nevertheless, in the studies by Tan et al. And Vandevauw et al. only male animals were used for the behavioral experiments. Yarmolinsky et al.  And Paricio-Montesinons et al. used both males and females while, as far as we can tell, only Paricio-Montesions et al. Reported that no difference was observed between the sexes. 

      Wildtypes are all C57bl/6N from the provider Janvier. Generally, all lines are backcrossed to C57bl/6 mice and additionally inbreeding was altered every 4-6 generations by crossing to C57bl/6. Exactly how many times the Trp channel KOs have been backcrossed to C57bl/6 mice we cannot exactly state.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      The authors of the study use a technically well-thought-out approach to dissect the question of how far TRPV1 and TRPM2 are involved in the perception of warm temperatures in mice. They supplement the experimental data with a drift-diffusion model. They find that TRPM2 is required to trigger the preference for 31{degree sign}C over warmer temperatures while TRPV1 increases the fidelity of afferent temperature information. A lack of either channel leads to a depletion of warm-sensing neurons and in the case of TRPV1 to a deficit in rapid responses to temperature changes. The study demonstrates that mouse phenotyping can only produce trustworthy results if the tools used to test them measure what we believe they are measuring. 

      Strengths: 

      The authors tackle a central question in physiology to which we have not yet found sufficient answers. They take a pragmatic approach by putting existing experimental methods to the test and refining them significantly. 

      Weaknesses: 

      It is difficult to find weaknesses. Not only the experimental methods but also the data analysis have been refined meticulously. There is no doubt that the authors achieved their aims and that the results support their conclusions. 

      There will certainly be some lasting impact on the future use of DRG cultures with respect to (I) the incubation periods, (II) how these data need to be analyzed, and (III) the numbers of neurons to be looked at. 

      As for the CPT assay, the future will have to show if mouse phenotyping results are more accurate with this technique. I'm more fond of full thermal gradient environments. However, behavioural phenotyping is still one of the most difficult fields in somatosensory research.  

      We thank the referee and were happy to read that the referee finds our study valuable and insightful. 

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):  

      Summary and strengths: 

      In the manuscript, Abd El Hay et al investigate the role of thermally sensitive ion channels TRPM2 and TRPV1 in warm preference and their dynamic response features to thermal stimulation. They develop a novel thermal preference task, where both the floor and air temperature are controlled, and conclude that mice likely integrate floor with air temperature to form a thermal preference. They go on to use knockout mice and show that TRPM2-/- mice play a role in the avoidance of warmer temperatures. Using a new approach for culturing DRG neurons they show the involvement of both channels in warm responsiveness and dynamics. This is an interesting study with novel methods that generate important new information on the different roles of TRPV1 and TRPM2 on thermal behavior. 

      Open questions and weaknesses: 

      (1) Differences in the response features of cells expressing TRPM2 and TRPV1 are central and interesting findings but need further validation (Figures 3 and 4). To show differences in the dynamics and the amplitude of responses across different lines and stimulus amplitudes more clearly, the authors should show the grand average population calcium response from all responsive neurons with error bars for all 3 groups for the different amplitudes of stimuli (as has been presented for the thermal stimuli traces). The authors should also provide a population analysis of the amplitude of the responses in all groups to all stimulus amplitudes. Prior work suggests that thermal detection is supported by an enhancement or suppression of the ongoing activity of sensory fibers innervating the skin. The authors should present any data on cells with ongoing activity. 

      We have now included grand average population analysis of the different groups in the revised version, this is found in Figure 2E and F. Based on the referee’s suggestion and the new analysis, we now can report a (subtle) cellular phenotype observed in DRG cultures of Trpm2 deficient animals: when averaging all warmth responses, the new analysis suggests that Trpm2-deficient cultures lack modulation of the response magnitude across the three increasing consecutive warmth stimuli (33°C, 36°C and 39°C).

      Concerning the point about ongoing activity: We are not sure if it is possible in neuronal cultures to faithfully recapitulate ongoing activity. Ongoing activity has been mostly recorded in skinnerve preparations (or in older studies in other types of nerve recordings) and there are only very few studies that show ongoing activity in cultured neurons and in those instances the ongoing activity only starts in sensory neuron cultures when cultured for even longer time periods than 3 days (Ref.: doi: 10.1152/jn.00158.2018). We have very few cells that show some spontaneous activity, but these are too few to draw any conclusions. In any case, nerve fibers might be necessary to drive ongoing activity which are absent from our cultures.

      (2) The authors should better place their findings in context with the literature and highlight the novelty of their findings. The introduction builds a story of a 'disconnect' or 'contradictory' findings about the role of TRPV1 and TRPM2 in warm detection. While there are some disparate findings in the literature, Tan and McNaughton (2016) show a role for TRPM2 in the avoidance of warmth in a similar task, Paricio et al. (2020) show a significant reduction in warm perception in TRPM2 and TRPV1 knock out lines and Yarmolinksy et al. (2016) show a reduction in warm perception with TRPV1 inactivation. All these papers are therefore in agreement with the authors finding of a role for these channels in warm behavior. The authors should change their introduction and discussion to more correctly discuss the findings of these studies and to better pinpoint the novelty of their own work.  

      Paricio-Montesinos et al. argue that TRPM8 is crucial for the detection of warmth, as TRPM8KO animals are incapable of learning the operant task. TRPM2-KO animals and, to a smaller extent TRPV1-KO animals, have reduced sensitivity in the task, but are still capable of learning/performing the task. However, in our chamber preference assay this is reversed: TRPM2-KO animals lose the ability to differentiate warm temperatures while TRPM8 appears to play no major role. A commonality between the two studies is that while TRPV1 affects the detection of warm temperatures in the different assays, this ion channel appears not to be crucial. 

      Similarly, Yarmolinsky et al. show that Trpv1-inactivation only increases the error rate in their operant assay (from ~10% to ~30%), without testing TRPM2. And Tan et al. show the importance of TRPM2 in the preference task, without testing for TRPV1. 

      More generally, the choice of the assay, being either an operant task (Paricio-Montesinos et al. and Yarmolinsky et al.) or a preference assay without training of the mice (Tan et al. and our data here), might be important and different TRP receptors may be relevant for different types of temperature assays, which we have now included at the end of the discussion section in the revised manuscript. While our results generally agree with the previous studies, they add a different perspective on the analysis of the behavior (with correlation to cellular data). We now edited the manuscript to highlight the advances more clearly. 

      Nevertheless, we believe that a discrepancy between cellular and behavioral data in the former studies exists and we kept this in the introduction. We hope that our data and suggestions of more nuanced analysis of cellular and behavioral responses, in particular also differences in their kinetics, may be helping to guide future studies.  

      (3) The responses of 60 randomly selected cells are shown in Figure 2B. But, looking at the TRPM2-/- data, warm responses appear more obvious than in WTs and the weaker responders of the WT group appear weaker than the equivalent group in the TRPV1-/- and TRPM2-/- data. This does not necessarily invalidate the results, but it may suggest a problem in the data selection. Because the correct classification of warm-sensitive neurons is central to this part of the study more validation of the classifier should be presented. For example, the authors could state if they trained the classifier using equal amounts of cells, show some randomly selected cells that are warm-insensitive for all genotypes, and show the population average responses of warm-insensitive neurons.  

      The classifier was trained on a balanced dataset of 1000 (500 responders and 500 nonresponders), manually labelled traces across all 5 temperature stimuli. The prediction accuracy was 98%. We have now described more clearly how the classifier was trained (See Materials and Methods) and include examples of responders and non-responders, the population averages of each class as well as a confusion matrix of the classification in the revised manuscript (Suppl. Figure 4A and B).

      (4) The interpretation of the main behavioral results and justification of the last figure is presented as the result of changes in sensing but differences in this behavior could be due to many factors and this needs clarification and discussion. (i) The authors mention that 'crucially temperature perception is not static' and suggest that there are fluctuating changes in perception over time and conclude that their modelling approach helps show changes in temperature detection. They imply that temperature perceptual threshold changes over time, but the mouse could just as easily have had exactly the same threshold throughout the task but their motivation (or some other cognitive variable) might vary causing them to change chamber. The authors should correct this. (ii) Likewise, from their fascinating and high-profile prior work the authors suggest a model of internal temperature sensing whereby TRPM2 expression in the hypothalamus acts as an internal sensory of body temperature. Given this, and the slow time course of the behavior in chambers with different ambient temperatures, couldn't the reason for the behavioral differences be due to central changes in hypothalamic processing rather than detection by skin temperature? If TRPM2-/- were selectively ablated from the skin or the hypothalamus (these experiments are not necessary for this paper) it might be possible to conclude whether sensation or body temperature is more likely the root cause of these effects but, without further experiments it is tough to conclude either way. (iii) Because the ambient temperature is controlled in this behavior, another hypothesis is that warm avoidance could be due to negative valence associated with breathing warm air, i.e. a result of sensation within the body in internal pathways, rather than sensing from the external skin. Overall, the authors should tone down conclusions about sensation and present a more detailed discussion of these points.  

      We are sorry that the statement including the phrase “crucially temperature perception is not static” was ambiguous; We have now deleted this statement and instead included different possibilities as to why mice may switch from one chamber to the other stochastically. 

      As the referee mentioned, it is possible that some other variable (motivation etc.) makes the mouse change the chamber; Nevertheless, we hypothesize that this variable (whatever it might be) is still modulated by temperature (at least this would be the likeliest explanation that we see).

      As for the aspect of internal/hypothalamic temperature sensing and its dependence on Trpm2: we have included this possibility in the discussion in the manuscript. 

      As for the point of negative valence mediated by breathing in warm air: yes, presumably this could also be possible. The aspect of valence is in interesting aspect by itself: would the mice be rather repelled from the (uncomfortable) hot plate or more attracted to the (more comfortable) thermoneutral plate, or both? Something to elucidate in a different study.

      (5) It is an excellent idea to present a more in-depth analysis of the behavioral data collected during the preference task, beyond 'the mouse is on one side or the other'. However, the drift-diffusion approach is complex to interpret from the text in the results and the figures. The results text is not completely clear on which behavioral parameters are analyzed and terms like drift, noise, estimate, and evidence are not clearly defined. Currently, this section of the paper slightly confuses and takes the paper away from the central findings about dynamics and behavioral differences. It seems like they could come to similar conclusions with simpler analysis and simpler figures. 

      We have now reassessed the description of the drift diffusion model and explain it more clearly, this can be found on page 5 – 8. We have considered whether it will be better to introduce the drift diffusion model at the beginning of the study, subsequent to Figure 1 but we believe this to better suited at the end, because, indeed, the cellular results (and differences in kinetic response parameters observed in DRG cultures of Trpv1 KO mice) prompted us to assess the behavior in this way. Thus, the order of experiments presented here, represents also more the natural path the study took. 

      (6) In Figure 2D the % of warm-sensitive neurons are shown for each genotype. Each data point is a field of view, however, reading the figure legend there appear to be more FOVs than data points (eg 10 data points for the TRPV1-/- but 17 FOVs). The authors should check this. 

      We have checked and corrected the number of FOVs mentioned in the legend, and the number shown in the Figure 2D and its legend are now in agreement. 

      (7) Can the authors comment on why animals with over-expression of TRPV1 spend more time in the warmest chamber to start with at 38C and not at 34C?  

      This is an interesting observation that we did not consider before. A closer look at Figure 4H reveals that the majority of the TRPV1-OX animals, have a proportionally long first visit to the 38°C room. We can only speculate why this is the case. We cannot rule out that this a technical shortcoming of the assay and how we conduced it – but we did not observe this for the wildtype mice, thus it is rather unlikely a technical problem. It is possible that this is a type of “freezing-” (or “startle-“) behavior when the animals first encounter the 38°C temperature. Freezing behaviors in mice can be observed when sudden/threatening stimuli are applied. It is possible that, in the TRPV1-overexpressing animals, the initial encounter with 38°C leads to activation of a larger proportion of cells (compared to WT controls), possibly signaling a “threatening” stimulus, and thus leading to this startle effect. However, such a claim would require additional experiments to test such a hypothesis more rigorously.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This study presents valuable findings on the potential of short-movie viewing fMRI protocol to explore the functional and topographical organization of the visual system in awake infants and toddlers. Although the data are compelling given the difficulty of studying this population, the evidence presented is incomplete and would be strengthened by additional analyses to support the authors' claims. This study will be of interest to cognitive neuroscientists and developmental psychologists, especially those interested in using fMRI to investigate brain organisation in pediatric and clinical populations with limited fMRI tolerance.

      We are grateful for the thorough and thoughtful reviews. We have provided point-bypoint responses to the reviewers’ comments, but first, we summarize the major revisions here. We believe these revisions have substantially improved the clarity of the writing and impact of the results.

      Regarding the framing of the paper, we have made the following major changes in response to the reviews:

      (1) We have clarified that our goal in this paper was to show that movie data contains topographic, fine-grained details of the infant visual cortex. In the revision, we now state clearly that our results should not be taken as evidence that movies could replace retinotopy and have reworded parts of the manuscript that could mislead the reader in this regard.

      (2) We have added extensive details to the (admittedly) complex methods to make them more approachable. An example of this change is that we have reorganized the figure explaining the Shared Response Modelling methods to divide the analytic steps more clearly.

      (3) We have clarified the intermediate products contributing to the results by adding 6 supplementary figures that show the gradients for each IC or SRM movie and each infant participant.

      In response to the reviews, we have conducted several major analyses to support our findings further:

      (1) To verify that our analyses can identify fine-grained organization, we have manually traced and labeled adult data, and then performed the same analyses on them. The results from this additional dataset validate that these analyses can recover fine-grained organization of the visual cortex from movie data.

      (2) To further explore how visual maps derived from movies compare to alternative methods, we performed an anatomical alignment control analysis. We show that high-quality maps can be predicted from other participants using anatomical alignment.

      (3) To test the contribution of motion to the homotopy analyses, we regressed out the motion effects in these analyses. We found qualitatively similar results to our main analyses, suggesting motion did not play a substantial role.

      (4) To test the contribution of data quantity to the homotopy analyses, we correlated the amount of movie data collected from each participant with the homotopy results. We did not find a relationship between data quantity and the homotopy results. 

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Ellis et al. investigated the functional and topographical organization of the visual cortex in infants and toddlers, as evidenced by movie-viewing data. They build directly on prior research that revealed topographic maps in infants who completed a retinotopy task, claiming that even a limited amount of rich, naturalistic movie-viewing data is sufficient to reveal this organization, within and across participants. Generating this evidence required methodological innovations to acquire high-quality fMRI data from awake infants (which have been described by this group, and elsewhere) and analytical creativity. The authors provide evidence for structured functional responses in infant visual cortex at multiple levels of analyses; homotopic brain regions (defined based on a retinotopy task) responded more similarly to one another than to other brain regions in visual cortex during movie-viewing; ICA applied to movie-viewing data revealed components that were identifiable as spatial frequency, and to a lesser degree, meridian maps, and shared response modeling analyses suggested that visual cortex responses were similar across infants/toddlers, as well as across infants/toddlers and adults. These results are suggestive of fairly mature functional response profiles in the visual cortex in infants/toddlers and highlight the potential of movie-viewing data for studying finer-grained aspects of functional brain responses, but further evidence is necessary to support their claims and the study motivation needs refining, in light of prior research.

      Strengths:

      - This study links the authors' prior evidence for retinotopic organization of visual cortex in human infants (Ellis et al., 2021) and research by others using movie-viewing fMRI experiments with adults to reveal retinotopic organization (Knapen, 2021).

      - Awake infant fMRI data are rare, time-consuming, and expensive to collect; they are therefore of high value to the community. The raw and preprocessed fMRI and anatomical data analyzed will be made publicly available.

      We are grateful to the reviewer for their clear and thoughtful description of the strengths of the paper, as well as their helpful outlining of areas we could improve.

      Weaknesses:

      - The Methods are at times difficult to understand and in some cases seem inappropriate for the conclusions drawn. For example, I believe that the movie-defined ICA components were validated using independent data from the retinotopy task, but this was a point of confusion among reviewers. 

      We acknowledge the complexity of the methods and wish to clarify them as best as possible for the reviewers and the readers. We have extensively revised the methods and results sections to help avoid potential misunderstandings. For instance, we have revamped the figure and caption describing the SRM pipeline (Figure 5).

      To answer the stated confusion directly, the ICA components were derived from the movie data and validated on the (completely independent) retinotopy data. There were no additional tasks. The following text in the paper explains this point:

      “To assess the selected component maps, we correlated the gradients (described above) of the task-evoked and component maps. This test uses independent data: the components were defined based on movie data and validated against task-evoked retinotopic maps.” Pg. 11

      In either case: more analyses should be done to support the conclusion that the components identified from the movie reproduce retinotopic maps (for example, by comparing the performance of movie-viewing maps to available alternatives (anatomical ROIs, group-defined ROIs). 

      Before addressing this suggestion, we want to restate our conclusions: features of the retinotopic organization of infant visual cortex could be predicted from movie data. We did not conclude that movie data could ‘reproduce’ retinotopic maps in the sense that they would be a replacement. We recognize that this was not clear in our original manuscript and have clarified this point throughout, including in this section of the discussion:

      “To be clear, we are not suggesting that movies work well enough to replace a retinotopy task when accurate maps are needed. For instance, even though ICA found components that were highly correlated with the spatial frequency map, we also selected some components that turned out to have lower correlations. Without knowing the ground truth from a retinotopy task, there would be no way to weed these out. Additionally, anatomical alignment (i.e., averaging the maps from other participants and anatomically aligning them to a held-out participant) resulted in maps that were highly similar to the ground truth. Indeed, we previously[23] found that adult-defined visual areas were moderately similar to infants. While functional alignment with adults can outperform anatomical alignment methods in similar analyses[27], here we find that functional alignment is inferior to anatomical alignment. Thus, if the goal is to define visual areas in an infant that lacks task-based retinotopy, anatomical alignment of other participants’ retinotopic maps is superior to using movie-based analyses, at least as we tested it.” Pg. 21

      As per the reviewer’s suggestion and alluded to in the paragraph above, we have created anatomically aligned visual maps, providing an analogous test to the betweenparticipant analyses like SRM. We find that these maps are highly similar to the ground truth. We describe this result in a new section of the results:

      “We performed an anatomical alignment analog of the functional alignment (SRM) approach. This analysis serves as a benchmark for predicting visual maps using taskbased data, rather than movie data, from other participants. For each infant participant, we aggregated all other infant or adult participants as a reference. The retinotopic maps from these reference participants were anatomically aligned to the standard surface template, and then averaged. These averages served as predictions of the maps in the test participant, akin to SRM, and were analyzed equivalently (i.e., correlating the gradients in the predicted map with the gradients in the task-based map). These correlations (Table S4) are significantly higher than for functional alignment (using infants to predict spatial frequency, anatomical alignment > functional alignment: ∆<sub>Fisher Z</sub> M=0.44, CI=[0.32–0.58], p<.001; using infants to predict meridians, anatomical alignment > functional alignment: ∆<sub>Fisher Z</sub> M=0.61, CI=[0.47–0.74], p<.001; using adults to predict spatial frequency, anatomical alignment > functional alignment: ∆<sub>Fisher Z</sub> M=0.31, CI=[0.21–0.42], p<.001; using adults to predict meridians, anatomical alignment > functional alignment: ∆<sub>Fisher Z</sub> M=0.49, CI=[0.39–0.60], p<.001). This suggests that even if SRM shows that movies can be used to produce retinotopic maps that are significantly similar to a participant, these maps are not as good as those that can be produced by anatomical alignment of the maps from other participants without any movie data.” Pg. 16–17

      Also, the ROIs used for the homotopy analyses were defined based on the retinotopic task rather than based on movie-viewing data alone - leaving it unclear whether movie-viewing data alone can be used to recover functionally distinct regions within the visual cortex.

      We agree with the reviewer that our approach does not test whether movie-viewing data alone can be used to recover functionally distinct regions. The goal of the homotopy analyses was to identify whether there was functional differentiation of visual areas in the infant brain while they watch movies. This was a novel question that provides positive evidence that these regions are functionally distinct. In subsequent analyses, we show that when these areas are defined anatomically, rather than functionally, they also show differentiated function (e.g., Figure 2). Nonetheless, our intention was not to use the homotopy analyses to define the regions. We have added text to clarify the goal and novelty of this analysis.

      “Although these analyses cannot define visual maps, they test whether visual areas have different functional signatures.” Pg. 6

      Additionally, even if the goal were to define areas based on homotopy, we believe the power of that analysis would be questionable. We would need to use a large amount of the movie data to define the areas, leaving a low-powered dataset to test whether their function is differentiated by these movie-based areas.

      - The authors previously reported on retinotopic organization of the visual cortex in human infants (Ellis et al., 2021) and suggest that the feasibility of using movie-viewing experiments to recover these topographic maps is still in question. They point out that movies may not fully sample the stimulus parameters necessary for revealing topographic maps/areas in the visual cortex, or the time-resolution constraints of fMRI might limit the use of movie stimuli, or the rich, uncontrolled nature of movies might make them inferior to stimuli that are designed for retinotopic mapping, or might lead to variable attention between participants that makes measuring the structure of visual responses across individuals challenging. This motivation doesn't sufficiently highlight the importance or value of testing this question in infants. Further, it's unclear if/how this motivation takes into account prior research using movie-viewing fMRI experiments to reveal retinotopic organization in adults (e.g., Knapen, 2021). Given the evidence for retinotopic organization in infants and evidence for the use of movie-viewing experiments in adults, an alternative framing of the novel contribution of this study is that it tests whether retinotopic organization is measurable using a limited amount of movie-viewing data (i.e., a methodological stress test). The study motivation and discussion could be strengthened by more attention to relevant work with adults and/or more explanation of the importance of testing this question in infants (is the reason to test this question in infants purely methodological - i.e., as a way to negate the need for retinotopic tasks in subsequent research, given the time constraints of scanning human infants?).

      We are grateful to the reviewer for giving us the opportunity to clarify the innovations of this research. We believe that this research contributes to our understanding of how infants process dynamic stimuli, demonstrates the viability and utility of movie experiments in infants, and highlights the potential for new movie-based analyses (e.g., SRM). We have now consolidated these motivations in the introduction to more clearly motivate this work:

      “The primary goal of the current study is to investigate whether movie-watching data recapitulates the organization of visual cortex. Movies drive strong and naturalistic responses in sensory regions while minimizing task demands[12, 13, 24] and thus are a proxy for typical experience. In adults, movies and resting-state data have been used to characterize the visual cortex in a data-driven fashion[25–27]. Movies have been useful in awake infant fMRI for studying event segmentation[28], functional alignment[29], and brain networks[30]. However, this past work did not address the granularity and specificity of cortical organization that movies evoke. For example, movies evoke similar activity in infants in anatomically aligned visual areas[28], but it remains unclear whether responses to movie content differ between visual areas (e.g., is there more similarity of function within visual areas than between31). Moreover, it is unknown whether structure within visual areas, namely visual maps, contributes substantially to visual evoked activity. Additionally, we wish to test whether methods for functional alignment can be used with infants. Functional alignment finds a mapping between participants using functional activity – rather than anatomy – and in adults can improve signal-to-noise, enhance across participant prediction, and enable unique analyses[27, 32–34].” Pg. 3-4

      Furthermore, the introduction culminates in the following statement on what the analyses will tell us about the nature of movie-driven activity in infants:

      “These three analyses assess key indicators of the mature visual system: functional specialization between areas, organization within areas, and consistency between individuals.” Pg. 5

      Furthermore, in the discussion we revisit these motivations and elaborate on them further:

      [Regarding homotopy:] “This suggests that visual areas are functionally differentiated in infancy and that this function is shared across hemispheres[31].” Pg. 19

      [Regarding ICA:] “This means that the retinotopic organization of the infant brain accounts for a detectable amount of variance in visual activity, otherwise components resembling these maps would not be discoverable.” Pg. 19–20

      [Regarding SRM:] “This is initial evidence that functional alignment may be useful for enhancing signal quality, like it has in adults[27,32,33], or revealing changing function over development[45].” Pg. 21

      Additionally, we have expanded our discussion of relevant work that uses similar methods such as the excellent research from Knapen (2021) and others:

      “In adults, movies and resting-state data have been used to characterize the visual cortex in a data-driven fashion[25-27].” Pg. 4

      “We next explored whether movies can reveal fine-grained organization within visual areas by using independent components analysis (ICA) to propose visual maps in individual infant brains[25,26,35,42,43].” Pg. 9

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript shows evidence from a dataset with awake movie-watching in infants, that the infant brain contains areas with distinct functions, consistent with previous studies using resting state and awake task-based infant fMRI. However, substantial new analyses would be required to support the novel claim that movie-watching data in infants can be used to identify retinotopic areas or to capture within-area functional organization.

      Strengths:

      The authors have collected a unique dataset: the same individual infants both watched naturalistic animations and a specific retinotopy task. These data position the authors to test their novel claim, that movie-watching data in infants can be used to identify retinotopic areas.

      Weaknesses:

      To claim that movie-watching data can identify retinotopic regions, the authors should provide evidence for two claims:

      - Retinotopic areas defined based only on movie-watching data, predict retinotopic responses in independent retinotopy-task-driven data.

      - Defining retinotopic areas based on the infant's own movie-watching response is more accurate than alternative approaches that don't require any movie-watching data, like anatomical parcellations or shared response activation from independent groups of participants.

      We thank the reviewer for their comments. Before addressing their suggestions, we wish to clarify that we do not claim that movie data can be used to identify retinotopic areas, but instead that movie data captures components of the within and between visual area organization as defined by retinotopic mapping. We recognize that this was not clear in our original manuscript and have clarified this point throughout, including in this section of the discussion:

      “To be clear, we are not suggesting that movies work well enough to replace a retinotopy task when accurate maps are needed. For instance, even though ICA found components that were highly correlated with the spatial frequency map, we also selected some components that turned out to have lower correlations. Without knowing the ground truth from a retinotopy task, there would be no way to weed these out. Additionally, anatomical alignment (i.e., averaging the maps from other participants and anatomically aligning them to a held-out participant) resulted in maps that were highly similar to the ground truth. Indeed, we previously[23] found that adult-defined visual areas were moderately similar to infants. While functional alignment with adults can outperform anatomical alignment methods in similar analyses[27], here we find that functional alignment with infants is inferior to anatomical alignment. Thus, if the goal is to define visual areas in an infant that lacks task-based retinotopy, anatomical alignment of other participants’ retinotopic maps is superior to using movie-based analyses, at least as we tested it.” Pg. 21

      In response to the reviewer’s suggestion, we compare the maps identified by SRM to the averaged, anatomically aligned maps from infants. We find that these maps are highly similar to the task-based ground truth and we describe this result in a new section:

      “We performed an anatomical alignment analog of the functional alignment (SRM) approach. This analysis serves as a benchmark for predicting visual maps using taskbased data, rather than movie data, from other participants. For each infant participant, we aggregated all other infant or adult participants as a reference. The retinotopic maps from these reference participants were anatomically aligned to the standard surface template, and then averaged. These averages served as predictions of the maps in the test participant, akin to SRM, and were analyzed equivalently (i.e., correlating the gradients in the predicted map with the gradients in the task-based map). These correlations (Table S4) are significantly higher than for functional alignment (using infants to predict spatial frequency, anatomical alignment < functional alignment: ∆<sub>Fisher Z</sub> M=0.44, CI=[0.32–0.58], p<.001; using infants to predict meridians, anatomical alignment < functional alignment: ∆<sub>Fisher Z</sub> M=0.61, CI=[0.47–0.74], p<.001; using adults to predict spatial frequency, anatomical alignment < functional alignment: ∆<sub>Fisher Z</sub> M=0.31, CI=[0.21–0.42], p<.001; using adults to predict meridians, anatomical alignment < functional alignment: ∆<sub>Fisher Z</sub> M=0.49, CI=[0.39–0.60], p<.001). This suggests that even if SRM shows that movies can be used to produce retinotopic maps that are significantly similar to a participant, these maps are not as good as those that can be produced by anatomical alignment of the maps from other participants without any movie data.” Pg. 16–17

      Note that we do not compare the anatomically aligned maps with the ICA maps statistically. This is because these analyses are not comparable: ICA is run withinparticipant whereas anatomical alignment is necessarily between-participant — either infant or adults. Nonetheless, an interested reader can refer to the Table where we report the results of anatomical alignment and see that anatomical alignment outperforms ICA in terms of the correlation between the predicted and task-based maps.

      Both of these analyses are possible, using the (valuable!) data that these authors have collected, but these are not the analyses that the authors have done so far. Instead, the authors report the inverse of (1): regions identified by the retinotopy task can be used to predict responses in the movies. The authors report one part of (2), shared responses from other participants can be used to predict individual infants' responses in the movies, but they do not test whether movie data from the same individual infant can be used to make better predictions of the retinotopy task data, than the shared response maps.

      So to be clear, to support the claims of this paper, I recommend that the authors use the retinotopic task responses in each individual infant as the independent "Test" data, and compare the accuracy in predicting those responses, based on:

      -  The same infant's movie-watching data, analysed with MELODIC, when blind experimenters select components for the SF and meridian boundaries with no access to the ground-truth retinotopy data.

      -  Anatomical parcellations in the same infant.

      -  Shared response maps from groups of other infants or adults.

      -  (If possible, ICA of resting state data, in the same infant, or from independent groups of infants).

      Or, possibly, combinations of these techniques.

      If the infant's own movie-watching data leads to improved predictions of the infant's retinotopic task-driven response, relative to these existing alternatives that don't require movie-watching data from the same infant, then the authors' main claim will be supported.

      These are excellent suggestions for additional analyses to test the suitability for moviebased maps to replace task-based maps. We hope it is now clear that it was never our intention to claim that movie-based data could replace task-based methods. We want to emphasize that the discoveries made in this paper — that movies evoke fine-grained organization in infant visual cortex — do not rely on movie-based maps being better than alternative methods for producing maps, such as the newly added anatomical alignment.

      The proposed analysis above solves a critical problem with the analyses presented in the current manuscript: the data used to generate maps is identical to the data used to validate those maps. For the task-evoked maps, the same data are used to draw the lines along gradients and then test for gradient organization. For the component maps, the maps are manually selected to show the clearest gradients among many noisy options, and then the same data are tested for gradient organization. This is a double-dipping error. To fix this problem, the data must be split into independent train and test subsets.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concern; however, we believe it is a result of a miscommunication in our analytic strategy. We have now provided more details on the analyses to clarify how double-dipping was avoided. 

      To summarize, a retinotopy task produced visual maps that were used to trace both area boundaries and gradients across the areas. These data were then fixed and unchanged, and we make no claims about the nature of these maps in this paper, other than to treat them as the ground truth to be used as a benchmark in our analyses. The movie data, which are collected independently from the same infant in the session, used the boundaries from the retinotopy task (in the case of homotopy) or were compared with the maps from the retinotopy task (in the case of ICA and SRM). In other words, the statement that “the data used to generate maps is identical to the data used to validate those maps” is incorrect because we generated the maps with a retinotopy task and validated the maps with the movie data. This means no double dipping occurred.

      Perhaps a cause of the reviewer’s interpretation is that the gradients used in the analysis are not clearly described. We now provide this additional description:  “Using the same manually traced lines from the retinotopy task, we measured the intensity gradients in each component from the movie-watching data. We can then use the gradients of intensity in the retinotopy task-defined maps as a benchmark for comparison with the ICA-derived maps.” Pg. 10

      Regarding the SRM analyses, we take great pains to avoid the possibility of data contamination. To emphasize how independent the SRM analysis is, the prediction of the retinotopic map from the test participant does not use their retinotopy data at all; in fact, the predicted maps could be made before that participant’s retinotopy data were ever collected. To make this prediction for a test participant, we need to learn the inversion of the SRM, but this only uses the movie data of the test participant. Hence, there is no double-dipping in the SRM analyses. We have elaborated on this point in the revision, and we remade the figure and its caption to clarify this point:

      We also have updated the description of these results to emphasize how double-dipping was avoided:

      “We then mapped the held-out participant's movie data into the learned shared space without changing the shared space (Figure 5c). In other words, the shared response model was learned and frozen before the held-out participant’s data was considered.

      This approach has been used and validated in prior SRM studies[45].” Pg. 14

      The reviewer suggests that manually choosing components from ICA is double-dipping. Although the reviewer is correct that the manual selection of components in ICA means that the components chosen ought to be good candidates, we are testing whether those choices were good by evaluating those components against the task-based maps that were not used for the ICA. Our statistical analyses evaluate whether the components chosen were better than the components that would have been chosen by random chance. Critically: all decisions about selecting the components happen before the components are compared to the retinotopic maps. Hence there is no double-dipping in the selection of components, as the choice of candidate ICA maps is not informed by the ground-truth retinotopic maps. We now clarify what the goal of this process is in the results:

      “Success in this process requires that 1) retinotopic organization accounts for sufficient variance in visual activity to be identified by ICA and 2) experimenters can accurately identify these components.” Pg. 10

      The reviewer also alludes to a concern that the researcher selecting the maps was not blind to the ground-truth retinotopic maps from participants and this could have influenced the results. In such a scenario, the researcher could have selected components that have the gradients of activity in the places that the infant has as ground truth. The researcher who made the selection of components (CTE) is one of the researchers who originally traced the areas in the participants approximately a year prior to the identification of ICs. The researcher selecting the components didn’t use the ground-truth retinotopic maps as reference, nor did they pay attention to the participant IDs when sorting the IC components. Indeed, they weren’t trying to find participant specific maps per se, but rather aimed to find good candidate retinotopic maps in general. In the case of the newly added adult analyses, the ICs were selected before the retinotopic mapping was reviewed or traced; hence, no knowledge about the participant-specific ground truth could have influenced the selection of ICs. Even with this process from adults, we find results of comparable strength as we found in infants, as shown below. Nonetheless, there is a possibility that this researcher’s previous experience of tracing the infant maps could have influenced their choice of components at the participant-specific level. If so, it was a small effect since the components the researcher selected were far from the best possible options (i.e., rankings of the selected components averaged in the 64th percentile for spatial frequency maps and the 68th percentile for meridian maps). We believe all reasonable steps were taken to mitigate bias in the selection of ICs.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The manuscript reports data collected in awake toddlers recording BOLD while watching videos. The authors analyse the BOLD time series using two different statistical approaches, both very complex but do not require any a priori determination of the movie features or contents to be associated with regressors. The two main messages are that 1) toddlers have occipital visual areas very similar to adults, given that an SRM model derived from adult BOLD is consistent with the infant brains as well; 2) the retinotopic organization and the spatial frequency selectivity of the occipital maps derived by applying correlation analysis are consistent with the maps obtained by standard and conventional mapping.

      Clearly, the data are important, and the author has achieved important and original results. However, the manuscript is totally unclear and very difficult to follow; the figures are not informative; the reader needs to trust the authors because no data to verify the output of the statistical analysis are presented (localization maps with proper statistics) nor so any validation of the statistical analysis provided. Indeed what I think that manuscript means, or better what I understood, may be very far from what the authors want to present, given how obscure the methods and the result presentation are.

      In the present form, this reviewer considers that the manuscript needs to be totally rewritten, the results presented each technique with appropriate validation or comparison that the reader can evaluate.

      We are grateful to the reviewer for the chance to improve the paper. We have broken their review into three parts: clarification of the methods, validation of the analyses, and enhancing the visualization.

      Clarification of the methods

      We acknowledge that the methods we employed are complex and uncommon in many fields of neuroimaging. That said, numerous papers have conducted these analyses on adults (Beckman et al., 2005; Butt et al., 2015; Guntupalli et al., 2016; Haak & Beckman, 2018; Knapen, 2021; Lu et al., 2017) and non-human primates (Arcaro & Livingstone, 2017; Moeller et al., 2009). We have redoubled our efforts in the revision to make the methods as clear as possible, expanding on the original text and providing intuitions where possible. These changes have been added throughout and are too vast in number to repeat here, especially without context, but we hope that readers will have an easier time following the analyses now. 

      Additionally, we updated Figures 3 and 5 in which the main ICA and SRM analyses are described. For instance, in Figure 3’s caption we now add details about how the gradient analyses were performed on the components: 

      “We used the same lines that were manually traced on the task-evoked map to assess the change in the component’s response. We found a monotonic trend within area from medial to lateral, just like we see in the ground truth.” Pg. 11

      Regarding Figure 5, we reconsidered the best way to explain the SRM analyses and decided it would be helpful to partition the diagram into steps, reflecting the analytic process. These updates have been added to Figure 5, and the caption has been updated accordingly.

      We hope that these changes have improved the clarity of the methods. For readers interested in learning more, we encourage them to either read the methods-focused papers that debut the analyses (e.g., Chen et al., 2015), read the papers applying the methods (e.g., Guntupalli et al., 2016), or read the annotated code we publicly release which implements these pipelines and can be used to replicate the findings.

      Validation of the analyses

      One of the requests the reviewer makes is to validate our analyses. Our initial approach was to lean on papers that have used these methods in adults or primates (e.g., Arcaro, & Livingstone, 2017; Beckman et al., 2005; Butt et al., 2015; Guntupalli et al., 2016; Haak & Beckman, 2018; Knapen, 2021; Moeller et al., 2009) where the underlying organization and neurophysiology is established. However, we have made changes to these methods that differ from their original usage (e.g., we used SRM rather than hyperalignment, we use meridian mapping rather than traveling wave retinotopy, we use movie-watching data rather than rest). Hence, the specifics of our design and pipeline warrant validation. 

      To add further validation, we have rerun the main analyses on an adult sample. We collected 8 adult participants who completed the same retinotopy task and a large subset of the movies that infants saw. These participants were run under maximally similar conditions to infants (i.e., scanned using the same parameters and without the top of the head-coil) and were preprocessed using the same pipeline. Given that the relationship between adult visual maps and movie-driven (or resting-state) analyses has been shown in many studies (Beckman et al., 2005; Butt et al., 2015; Guntupalli et al., 2016; Haak & Beckman, 2018; Knapen, 2021; Lu et al., 2017), these adult data serve as a validation of our analysis pipeline. These adult participants were included in the original manuscript; however, they were previously only used to support the SRM analyses (i.e., can adults be used to predict infant visual maps). The adult results are described before any results with infants, as a way to engender confidence. Moreover, we have provided new supplementary figures of the adult results that we hope will be integrated with the article when viewing it online, such that it will be easy to compare infant and adult results, as per the reviewer’s request. 

      As per the figures and captions below, the analyses were all successful with the adult participants: 1) Homotopic correlations are higher than correlations between comparable areas in other streams or areas that are more distant within stream. 2) A multidimensional scaling depiction of the data shows that areas in the dorsal and ventral stream are dissimilar. 3) Using independent components analysis on the movie data, we identified components that are highly correlated with the retinotopy task-based spatial frequency and meridian maps. 4) Using shared response modeling on the movie data, we predicted maps that are highly correlated with the retinotopy task-based spatial frequency and meridian maps.

      These supplementary analyses are underpowered for between-group comparisons, so we do not statistically compare the results between infants and adults. Nonetheless, the pattern of adult results is comparable overall to the infant results. 

      We believe these adult results provide a useful validation that the infant analyses we performed can recover fine-grained organization.

      Enhancing the visualization

      The reviewer raises an additional concern about the lack of visualization of the results. We recognize that the plots of the summary statistics do not provide information about the intermediate analyses. Indeed, we think the summary statistics can understate the degree of similarity between the components or predicted visual maps and the ground truth. Hence, we have added 6 new supplementary figures showing the intensity gradients for the following analyses: 1. spatial frequency prediction using ICA, 2. meridian prediction using ICA, 3. spatial frequency prediction using infant SRM, 4. meridian prediction using infant SRM, 5. spatial frequency prediction using adult SRM, and 6. meridian prediction using adult SRM.

      We hope that these visualizations are helpful. It is possible that the reviewer wishes us to also visually present the raw maps from the ICA and SRM, akin to what we show in Figure 3A and 3B. We believe this is out of scope of this paper: of the 1140 components that were identified by ICA, we selected 36 for spatial frequency and 17 for meridian maps. We also created 20 predicted maps for spatial frequency and 20 predicted meridian maps using SRM. This would result in the depiction of 93 subfigures, requiring at least 15 new full-page supplementary figures to display with adequate resolution. Instead, we encourage the reader to access this content themselves: we have made the code to recreate the analyses publicly available, as well as both the raw and preprocessed data for these analyses, including the data for each of these selected maps.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) As mentioned in the public review, the authors should consider incorporating relevant adult fMRI research into the Introduction and explain the importance of testing this question in infants.

      Our public response describes the several citations to relevant adult research we have added, and have provided further motivation for the project.

      (2) The authors should conduct additional analyses to support their conclusion that movie data alone can generate accurate retinotopic maps (i.e., by comparing this approach to other available alternatives).

      We have clarified in our public response that we did not wish to conclude that movie data alone can generate accurate retinotopic maps, and have made substantial edits to the text to emphasize this. Thus, because this claim is already not supported by our analyses, we do not think it is necessary to test it further.

      (3) The authors should re-do the homotopy analyses using movie-defined ROIs (i.e., by splitting the movie-viewing data into independent folds for functional ROI definition and analyses).

      As stated above, defining ROIs based on the movie content is not the intended goal of this project. Even if that were the general goal, we do not believe that it would be appropriate to run this specific analysis with the data we collected. Firstly, halving the data for ROI definition (e.g., using half the movie data to identify and trace areas, and then use those areas in the homotopy analysis to run on the other half of data) would qualitatively change the power of the analyses described here. Secondly, we would be unable to define areas beyond hV4/V3AB with confidence, since our retinotopic mapping only affords specification of early visual cortex. Thus we could not conduct the MDS analyses shown in Figure 2.

      (4) If the authors agree that a primary contribution of this study and paper is to showcase what is possible to do with a limited amount of movie-viewing data, then they should make it clearer, sooner, how much usable movie data they have from infants. They could also consider conducting additional analyses to determine the minimum amount of fMRI data necessary to reveal the same detailed characteristics of functional responses in the visual cortex.

      We agree it would be good to highlight the amount of movie data used. When the infant data is first introduced in the results section, we now state the durations:

      “All available movies from each session were included (Table S2), with an average duration of 540.7s (range: 186--1116s).” Pg. 5

      Additionally, we have added a homotopy analysis that describes the contribution of data quantity to the results observed. We compare the amount of data collected with the magnitude of same vs. different stream effect (Figure 1B) and within stream distance effect (Figure 1C). We find no effect of movie duration in the sample we tested, as reported below:

      “We found no evidence that the variability in movie duration per participant correlated with this difference [of same stream vs. different stream] (r=0.08, p=.700).” Pg. 6-7

      “There was no correlation between movie duration and the effect (Same > Adjacent: r=-0.01, p=.965, Adjacent > Distal: r=-0.09, p=.740).” Pg. 7

      (5) If any of the methodological approaches are novel, the authors should make this clear. In particular, has the approach of visually inspecting and categorizing components generated from ICA and movie data been done before, in adults/other contexts?

      The methods we employed are similar to others, as described in the public review.

      However, changes were necessary to apply them to infant samples. For instance, Guntupalli et al. (2016) used hyperalignment to predict the visual maps of adult participants, whereas we use SRM. SRM and hyperalignment have the same goal — find a maximally aligned representation between participants based on brain function — but their implementation is different. The application of functional alignment to infants is novel, as is their use in movie data that is relatively short by comparison to standard adult data. Indeed, this is the most thorough demonstration that SRM — or any functional alignment procedure — can be usefully applied to infant data, awake or sleeping. We have clarified this point in the discussion.

      “This is initial evidence that functional alignment may be useful for enhancing signal quality, like it has in adults[27,32,33], or revealing changing function over development[45], which may prove especially useful for infant fMRI[52].” Pg. 21

      (6) The authors found that meridian maps were less identifiable from ICA and movie data and suggest that this may be because these maps are more susceptible to noise or gaze variability. If this is the case, you might predict that these maps are more identifiable in adult data. The authors could consider running additional analyses with their adult participants to better understand this result.

      As described in the manuscript, we hypothesize that meridian maps are more difficult to identify than spatial frequency maps because meridian maps are a less smooth, more fine-grained map than spatial frequency. Indeed, it has previously been reported (Moeller et al., 2009) that similar procedures can result in meridian maps that are constituted by multiple independent components (e.g., a component sensitive to horizontal orientations, and a separate component sensitive to vertical components). Nonetheless, we have now conducted the ICA procedure on adult participants and again find it is easier to identify spatial frequency components compared to meridian maps, as reported in the public review.

      Minor corrections:

      (1) Typo: Figure 3 title: "Example retintopic task vs. ICA-based spatial frequency maps.".

      Fixed

      (2) Given the age range of the participants, consider using "infants and toddlers"? (Not to diminish the results at all; on the contrary, I think it is perhaps even more impressive to obtain awake fMRI data from ~1-2-year-olds). Example: Figure 3 legend: "A) Spatial frequency map of a 17.1-monthold infant.".

      We agree with the reviewer that there is disagreement about the age range at which a child starts being considered a toddler. We have changed the terms in places where we refer to a toddler in particular (e.g., the figure caption the reviewer highlights) and added the phrase “infants and toddlers” in places where appropriate. Nonetheless, we have kept “infants” in some places, particularly those where we are comparing the sample to adults. Adding “and toddlers” could imply three samples being compared which would confuse the reader.

      (3) Figure 6 legend: The following text should be omitted as there is no bar plot in this figure: "The bar plot is the average across participants. The error bar is the standard error across participants.".

      Fixed

      (4) Table S1 legend: Missing first single quote: Runs'.

      Fixed

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I request that this paper cite more of the existing literature on the fMRI of human infants and toddlers using task-driven and resting-state data. For example, early studies by (first authors) Biagi, Dehaene-Lambertz, Cusack, and Fransson, and more recent studies by Chen, Cabral, Truzzi, Deen, and Kosakowski.

      We have added several new citations of recent task-based and resting state studies to the second sentence of the main text:

      “Despite the recent growth in infant fMRI[1-6], one of the most important obstacles facing this research is that infants are unable to maintain focus for long periods of time and struggle to complete traditional cognitive tasks[7].”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In the following, I report some of my main perplexities, but many more may arise when the material is presented more clearly.

      The age of the children varies from 5 months to about 2 years. While the developmental literature suggests that between 1 and 2 years children have a visual system nearly adult-like, below that age some areas may be very immature. I would split the sample and perhaps attempt to validate the adult SRM model with the youngest children (and those can be called infants).

      We recognize the substantial age variability in our sample, which is why we report participant-specific data in our figures. While splitting up the data into age bins might reveal age effects, we do not think we can perform adequately powered null hypothesis testing of the age trend. In order to investigate the contribution of age, larger samples will be needed. That said, we can see from the data that we have reported that any effect of age is likely small. To elaborate: Figures 4 and 6 report the participant-specific data points and order the participants by age. There are no clear linear trends in these plots, thus there are no strong age effects.

      More broadly, we do not think there is a principled way to divide the participants by age. The reviewer suggests that the visual system is immature before the first year of life and mature afterward; however, such claims are the exact motivation for the type of work we are doing here, and the verdict is still out. Indeed, the conclusion of our earlier work reporting retinotopy in infants (Ellis et al., 2021) suggests that the organization of the early visual cortex in infants as young as 5 months — the youngest infant in our sample — is surprisingly adult-like.

      The title cannot refer to infants given the age span.

      There is disagreement in the field about the age at which it is appropriate to refer to children as infants. In this paper, and in our prior work, we followed the practice of the most attended infant cognition conference and society, the International Congress of Infant Studies (ICIS), which considers infants as those aged between 0-3 years old, for the purposes of their conference. Indeed, we have never received this concern across dozens of prior reviews for previous papers covering a similar age range. That said, we understand the spirit of the reviewer’s comment and now refer to the sample as “infants and toddlers” and to older individuals in our sample as “toddlers” wherever it is appropriate (the younger individuals would fairly be considered “infants” under any definition).

      Figure 1 is clear and an interesting approach. Please also show the average correlation maps on the cortical surface.

      While we would like to create a figure as requested, we are unsure how to depict an area-by-area correlation map on the cortical surface. One option would be to generate a seed-based map in which we take an area and depict the correlation of that seed (e.g., vV1) with all other voxels. This approach would result in 8 maps for just the task-defined areas, and 17 maps for anatomically-defined areas. Hence, we believe this is out of scope of this paper, but an interested reader could easily generate these maps from the data we have released.

      Figure 2 results are not easily interpretable. Ventral and dorsal V1-V3 areas represent upper or lower VF respectively. Higher dorsal and ventral areas represent both upper and lower VF, so we should predict an equal distance between the two streams. Again, how can we verify that it is not a result of some artifacts?

      In adults, visual areas differ in their functional response properties along multiple dimensions, including spatial coding. The dorsal/ventral stream hypothesis is derived from the idea that areas in each stream support different functions, independent of spatial coding. The MDS analysis did not attempt to isolate the specific contribution of spatial representations of each area but instead tested the similarity of function that is evoked in naturalistic viewing. Other covariance-based analyses specifically isolate the contribution of spatial representations (Haak et al., 2013); however, they use a much more constrained analysis than what was implemented here. The fact that we find broad differentiation of dorsal and ventral visual areas in infants is consistent with adults (Haak & Beckman, 2018) and neonate non-human primates (Arcaro & Livingstone, 2017). 

      Nonetheless, we recognize that we did not mention the differences in visual field properties across areas and what that means. If visual field properties alone drove the functional response then we would expect to see a clustering of areas based on the visual field they represent (e.g., hV4 and V3AB should have similar representations). Since we did not see that, and instead saw organization by visual stream, the result is interesting and thus warrants reporting. We now mention this difference in visual fields in the manuscript to highlight the surprising nature of the result.

      “This separation between streams is striking when considering that it happens despite differences in visual field representations across areas: while dorsal V1 and ventral V1 represent the lower and upper visual field, respectively, V3A/B and hV4 both have full visual field maps. These visual field representations can be detected in adults[41]; however, they are often not the primary driver of function[39]. We see that in infants too: hV4 and V3A/B represent the same visual space yet have distinct functional profiles.” Pg. 8

      The reviewer raises a concern that the MDS result may be spurious and caused by noise. Below, we present three reasons why we believe these results are not accounted for by artifacts but instead reflect real functional differentiation in the visual cortex. 

      (1) Figure 2 is a visualization of the similarity matrix presented in Figure S1. In Figure S1, we report the significance testing we performed to confirm that the patterns differentiating dorsal and ventral streams — as well as adjacent areas from distal areas — are statistically reliable across participants. If an artifact accounted for the result then it would have to be a kind of systematic noise that is consistent across participants.

      (2) One of the main sources of noise (both systematic and non-systematic) with infant fMRI is motion. Homotopy is a within-participant analysis that could be biased by motion. To assess whether motion accounts for the results, we took a conservative approach of regressing out the framewise motion (i.e., how much movement there is between fMRI volumes) from the comparisons of the functional activity in regions. Although the correlations numerically decreased with this procedure, they were qualitatively similar to the analysis that does not regress out motion:

      “Additionally, if we control for motion in the correlation between areas --- in case motion transients drive consistent activity across areas --- then the effects described here are negligibly different (Figure S5).” Pg. 7

      (3) We recognize that despite these analyses, it would be helpful to see what this pattern looks like in adults where we know more about the visual field properties and the function of dorsal and ventral streams. This has been done previously (e.g., Haak & Beckman, 2018), but we have now run those analyses on adults in our sample, as described in the public review. As with infants, there are reliable differences in the homotopy between streams (Figure S1). The MDS results show that the adult data was more complex than the infant data, since it was best described by 3 dimensions rather than 2. Nonetheless, there is a rotation of the MDS such that the structure of the ventral and dorsal streams is also dissociable. 

      Figure 3 also raises several alternative interpretations. The spatial frequency component in B has strong activity ONLY at the extreme border of the VF and this is probably the origin of the strong correlation. I understand that it is only one subject, but this brings the need to show all subjects and to report the correlation. Also, it is important to show the putative average ICA for retinotopy and spatial frequencies across subjects and for adults. All methods should be validated on adults where we have clear data for retinotopy and spatial frequency.

      The reviewer notes that the component in Figure 3 shows strong negative response in the periphery. It is often the case, as reported elsewhere (Moeller et al., 2009), that ICA extracts portions of visual maps. To make a full visual map would require combining components into a composite (e.g., a component that has a high response in the periphery and another component that has a high response in the fovea). If we were to claim that this component, or others like it, could replace the need for retinotopic mapping, then we would want to produce these composite maps; however, our conclusion in this project is that the topographic information of retinotopic maps manifest in individual components of ICA. For this purpose, the analysis we perform adequately assesses this topography.

      Regarding the request to show the results for all subjects, we address this in the public response and repeat it here briefly: we have added 6 new figures to show results akin to Figure 3C and D. It is impractical to show the equivalent of Figure 3A and B for all participants, yet we do release the data necessary to see to visualize these maps easily.

      Finally, the reviewer suggests that we validate the analyses on adult participants. As shown in Figure S3 and reported in the public response, we now run these analyses on adult participants and observe qualitatively similar results to infants.

      How much was the variation in the presumed spatial frequency map? Is it consistent with the acuity range? 5-month-old infants should have an acuity of around 10c/deg, depending on the mean luminance of the scene.

      The reviewer highlights an important weakness of conducting ICA: we cannot put units on the degree of variation we see in components. We now highlight this weakness in the discussion:

      “Another limitation is that ICA does not provide a scale to the variation: although we find a correlation between gradients of spatial frequency in the ground truth and the selected component, we cannot use the component alone to infer the spatial frequency selectivity of any part of cortex. In other words, we cannot infer units of spatial frequency sensitivity from the components alone.” Pg. 20

      Figure 5 pipeline is totally obscure. I presumed that I understood, but as it is it is useless. All methods should be clearly described, and the intermediate results should be illustrated in figures and appropriately discussed. Using such blind analyses in infants in principle may not be appropriate and this needs to be verified. Overall all these techniques rely on correlation activities that are all biased by head movement, eye movement, and probably the dummy sucking. All those movements need to be estimated and correlated with the variability of the results. It is a strong assumption that the techniques should work in infants, given the presence of movements.

      We recognize that the SRM methods are complex. Given this feedback, we remade Figure 5 with explicit steps for the process and updated the caption (as reported in the public review).

      Regarding the validation of these methods, we have added SRM analyses from adults and find comparable results. This means that using these methods on adults with comparable amounts of data as what we collected from infants can predict maps that are highly similar to the real maps. Even so, it is not a given that these methods are valid in infants. We present two considerations in this regard. 

      First, as part of the SRM analyses reported in the manuscript, we show that control analyses are significantly worse than the real analyses (indicated by the lines on Figure 6). To clarify the control analysis: we break the mapping (i.e., flip the order of the data so that it is backwards) between the test participant and the training participants used to create the SRM. The fact that this control analysis is significantly worse indicates that SRM is learning meaningful representations that matter for retinotopy. 

      Second, we believe that this paper is a validation of SRM for infants. Infant fMRI is a nascent field and SRM has the potential to increase the signal quality in this population. We hope that readers will see these analyses as a proof of concept that SRM can be used in their work with infants. We have stated this contribution in the paper now.

      “Additionally, we wish to test whether methods for functional alignment can be used with infants. Functional alignment finds a mapping between participants using functional activity -- rather than anatomy -- and in adults can improve signal-to-noise, enhance across participant prediction, and enable unique analyses[27,32-34].” Pg. 4

      “This is initial evidence that functional alignment may be useful for enhancing signal quality, like it has in adults[27,32,33], or revealing changing function over development[45].” Pg. 21

      Regarding the reviewer’s concern that motion may bias the results, we wish to emphasize the nature of the analyses being conducted here: we are using data from a group of participants to predict the neural responses in a held-out participant. For motion to explain consistency between participants, the motion would need to be timelocked across participants. Even if motion was time-locked during movie watching, motion will impair the formation of an adequate model that can contain retinotopic information. Thus, motion should only hurt the ability for a shared response to be found that can be used for predicting retinotopic maps. Hence, the results we observed are despite motion and other sources of noise.

      What is M??? is it simply the mean value??? If not, how it is estimated?

      M is an abbreviation for mean. We have now expanded the abbreviation the first time we use it.

      Figure 6 should be integrated with map activity where the individual area correlation should be illustrated. Probably fitting SMR adult works well for early cortical areas, but not for more ventral and associative, and the correlation should be evaluated for the different masks.

      With the addition of plots showing the gradients for each participant and each movie (Figures S10–S13) we hope we have addressed this concern. We additionally want to clarify that the regions we tested in the analysis in Figure 6 are only the early visual areas V1, V2, V3, V3A/B, and hV4. The adult validation analyses show that SRM works well for predicting the visual maps in these areas. Nonetheless, it is an interesting question for future research with more extensive retinotopic mapping in infants to see if SRM can predict maps beyond extrastriate cortex.

      Occipital masks have never been described or shown.

      The occipital mask is from the MNI probabilistic structural atlas (Mazziotta et al., 2001), as reported in the original version and is shared with the public data release. We have added the additional detail that the probabilistic atlas is thresholded at 0% in order to be liberally inclusive. 

      “We used the occipital mask from the MNI structural atlas[63] in standard space -- defined liberally to include any voxel with an above zero probability of being labelled as the occipital lobe -- and used the inverted transform to put it into native functional space.” Pg. 27–28

      Methods lack the main explanation of the procedures and software description.

      We hope that the additions we have made to address this reviewer’s concerns have provided better explanations for our procedures. Additionally, as part of the data and code release, we thoroughly explain all of the software needed to recreate the results we have observed here.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      My main concern is the use of the 700K SNP dataset. This set of SNPs suffers from a heavy ascertainment bias, which can be seen in the PCA in the supplementary material where all the aurochs cluster in the center within the variation of cattle. Given the coverage of some of the samples, multiple individuals would have less than 10K SNP covered. The majority of these are unlikely to be informative here given that they would just represent fixed positions between taurine and indicine or SNPs mostly variable in milk cattle breeds. The authors would get a much better resolution (i.e. many more SNPs to work with their very low genome coverage data) using the 1000 bull genome project VCF data set:

      https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB42783 which based on whole genome resequencing data from many cattle. This will certainly help with improving the resolution of qpAdm and f4 analysis, which have huge confidence intervals in most cases. Right now some individuals have huge confidence intervals ranging from 0 to 80% auroch ancestry...

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We repeated our analyses with a SNP panel from Run 6 of the 1000 Bulls project presented in Naval-Sanchez et al 2020. This panel reduced standard errors and narrowed down confidence intervals for the ancient samples. Another consequence is that more single-source qpAdm models can now be rejected highlighting the abundance of hybridization. For our comparison to modern breeds, we still use the 700K dataset as it provides a set of different modern European cattle breeds.

      I agree with the authors that qpAdm is likely to give quite a noisy estimate of ancestry here (likely explain part of the issue I mentioned above). Although qpAdm is good for model testing here for ancestry proportion the authors instead could use an explicit f4 ratio - this would allow them to specify a model which would make the result easier to interpret.

      We have added ancestry estimates from f4 ratios to the manuscript and display them together with qpAdm and Struct-f4 (as suggested by reviewer #3) in our new Table 1. We decided to keep all three different estimates to illustrate that results are not consistent for all analyses. An additional feature of qpAdm is the possibility that two source models can be rejected and additional ancestries can be identified.

      The interpretation of the different levels of allele sharing on X vs autosome being the result of sex-bias admixture is not very convincing. Could these differences simply be due to a low recombination rate on the X chromosome and/or lower effective population size, which would lead to less efficient purifying selection?

      Following this comment (and another comment referring to the X chromosome analysis by reviewer #2), we decided to remove sex bias from the title of our study and add more information on the caveats of this analysis. While estimating ancestry on the X chromosome can be difficult, we also add that our patterns are consistent with what has been suggested based on ancient mitochondrial data (Verdugo et al 2019). For Neolithic Anatolia, it has been suggested that the insemination of domestic cows by auroch bulls has been intentional or even ritual (Peters et al 2012). A recent parallel archaeogenomic study also concluded sex-biased introgression from autosomal, X-chromosomal and Y-chromosomal data (Rossi et al 2024). As our results are consistent with these previous studies as well as the lower differentiation of modern breeds on the X chromosome (da Fonseca et al 2019), we still consider the general pattern of our results valid even if the exact extent of sex bias is difficult to assess.

      The authors suggest that 2 pop model rejection in some domestic population might be due to indicine ancestry, this seems relatively straightforward to test.

      We had already performed this analysis of modeling their ancestry from three sources using qpAdm. The results are shown in Supplementary Table S6 and we now refer to this more explicitly in the text: “The presence of indicine ancestry can be confirmed in a qpAdm analysis using three sources resulting in fitting models for all breeds (Supplementary Table S6).”

      The first sentence of the paper is a bit long-winded, also dogs were domesticated before the emergence of farming societies.

      We rephrased the first sentence to “Domestication of livestock and crops has been the dominant and most enduring innovation of the transition from a hunter-gathering lifestyle to farming societies.”

      It would be good to be specific about the number of genomes and coverage info in the last paragraph of the intro.

      This information is included in the first paragraph of the results section and we decided to not duplicate the numbers in the preceding introduction paragraph to retain a flow for the readers.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, the authors investigated the admixture history of domestic cattle since they were introduced into Iberia, by studying genomic data from 24 ancient samples dated to ~2000-8000 years ago and comparing them to modern breeds. They aimed to (1) test for introgression from (local) wild aurochs into domestic cattle; (2) characterize the pattern of admixture (frequency, extent, sex bias, directionality) over time; (3) test for correlation between genetic ancestry and stable isotope levels (which are indicative of ecological niche); and (4) test for the hypothesized higher aurochs ancestry in a modern breed of fighting bulls.

      Strengths:

      Overall, this study collects valuable new data that are useful for testing interesting hypotheses, such as admixture between domestic and wild populations, and correlation between genome-wide aurochs ancestry and aggressiveness.

      Thank you for highlighting the importance of our study and the potential of our dataset.

      Weaknesses:

      Most conclusions are partially supported by the data presented. The presence of admixed individuals in prehistorical periods supports the hypothesized introgression, although this conclusion needs to be strengthened with an analysis of potential contamination. The frequency, sex-bias, and directionality of admixture remain highly uncertain due to limitations of the data or issues with the analysis. There is considerable overlap in stable isotope values between domestic and wild groups, indicating a shared ecological niche, but variation in classification criteria for domestic vs wild groups and in skeletal elements sampled for measurements significantly weakens this claim. Lastly, the authors presented convincing evidence for relatively constant aurochs ancestry across all modern breeds, including the Lidia breed which has been bred for aggressiveness for centuries. My specific concerns are outlined below.

      Contamination is a common concern for all ancient DNA studies. Contamination by modern samples is perhaps unlikely for this specific study of ancient cattle, but there is still the possibility of cross-sample contamination. The authors should estimate and report contamination estimates for each sample (based on coverage of autosomes and sex chromosomes, or heterozygosity of Y or MT DNA). Such contamination estimates are particularly important to support the presence of individuals with admixed ancestry, as a domestic sample contaminated with a wild sample (or vice versa) could appear as an admixed individual.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. Due to our low coverage data, we focused on estimating contamination from the mitochondrial data by implementing the approach used by Green et al (2008). We make the code for this step available on Github. While most samples displayed low levels of contamination, we identified one sample (moo013a) with a surprisingly high (~50%) level of contamination which was excluded from further analysis.

      A major limitation of this study is uncertainty in the "population identity" for most sampled individuals (i.e., whether an individual belonged to the domesticated or wild herd when they were alive). Based on chronology, morphology, and genetic data, it is clear the Mesolithic samples from the Artusia and Mendandia sites are bona fide aurochs, but the identities of individuals from the other two sites are much less certain. Indeed, archeological and morphological evidence from El Portalon supports the presence of both domestic animals and wild aurochs, which is echoed by the inter-individual heterogeneity in genetic ancestry. Based on results shown in Fig 1C and Fig 2 it seems that individuals moo017, moo020, and possibly moo012a are likely wild aurochs that had been hunted and brought back to the site by humans. Although the presence of individuals (e.g., moo050, moo019) that can only be explained by two-source models strongly supports that interbreeding happened (if cross-contamination is ruled out), it is unclear whether these admixed individuals were raised in the domestic population or lived in the wild population and hunted.

      The reviewer is pointing out an important topic, the unknown identity of the studied individuals. We have revised the text making clear that we do not know whether the individuals were hunted or herded. At the same time, their genomic ancestry speaks for itself showing that there was hybridization between wild and domestic and that different individuals carried different degrees of wild ancestry. In the revised version, we have added the unknown identity as well as the fact that our results can be affected by both, changes in human hunting and herding practices over time. Regardless of the exact identity of the individuals, our results can still be seen as (a) evidence for hybridization and (b) changes in human practices (hunting and/or herding) and their relationship to bovids over time.

      Such uncertainty in "population identity" limits the authors' ability to make conclusions regarding the frequency, sex bias, and directionality of gene flow between domestic and wild populations. For instance, the wide range of ancestry estimates in Neolithic and Chalcolithic samples could be interpreted as evidence of (1) frequent recent gene flow or (2) mixed practices of herding and hunting and less frequent gene flow. Similarly, the statement about "bidirection introgression" (on pages 8 and 11) is not directly supported by data. As the genomic, morphological, and isotope data cannot confidently classify an individual as belonging to the domesticated or wild population, it seems impossible to conclude the direction of gene flow (if by "bidirection introgression" the authors mean something other than "bidirectional gene flow", they need to clearly explain this before reaching the conclusion.)

      We have removed “bidirectional introgression” from the text and replaced it with the more neutral term “hybridization”. Furthermore, we used the revision to mention at several places in the text that it is not clear whether the sequenced individuals were hunted and herded and that the observed pattern likely reflects changes in both hunting and herding practices.

      The f4 statistics shown in Fig 3B are insufficient to support the claim regarding sex-biased hybridization, as the f4 statistic values are not directly comparable between the X chromosome and autosomes. Because the effective population size is different for the X chromosome and autosomes (roughly 3:4 for populations with equal numbers of males and females), the expected amount of drift is different, hence the fraction of allele sharing (f4) is expected to be different. In fact, the observation that moo004 whose autosomal genome can be modeled as 100% domestic ancestry still shows a higher f4 value for the X chromosome than autosomes hints at this issue. A more robust metric to test for sex-biased admixture is the admixture proportion itself, which can be estimated by qpAdm or f4-ratio (see Patterson et al 2012). However, even with this method, criticism has been raised (e.g., Lazaridis and Reich 2017; Pfennig and Lachance, 2023). In general, detecting sex-bias admixture is a tough problem.

      In response to this comment and another comment by reviewer #1, we decided to remove sex bias from the title. In the revised version of our study, we have now switched this analysis from f4 statistics to comparing f4 ratios between the X chromosome and autosomes (Figure 3). Furthermore, we have added more information on the caveats of this analysis citing the articles mentioned by the reviewer. At the same time, we highlight that our patterns are consistent with what has been suggested based on ancient mitochondrial data (Verdugo et al 2019). Unfortunately, the low coverage data does not allow to call Y chromosomal haplotypes which would also allow an analysis of the paternal lineage. But our results are consistent with additional examples from the literature: For Neolithic Anatolia, it has been suggested that the insemination of domestic cows by auroch bulls has been intentional or even ritual (Peters et al 2012) and there is a lower differentiation of modern breeds on the X chromosome (da Fonseca et al 2019). A recent parallel archaeogenomic study also concluded sex-biased introgression from autosomal, X-chromosomal and Y-chromosomal data (Rossi et al 2024). Similar to the broader hybridization signal, our interpretation does not depend on the estimates for single individuals as we describe the broader pattern. As our results are consistent with previous results based on other types of data, we still consider the general pattern of our results valid even if the exact extent of sex bias is difficult to assess.

      In general, the stable isotope analysis seems to be very underpowered, due to the issues of variation in classification criteria and skeletal sampling location discussed by the authors in supplementary material. The authors claimed a significant difference in stable nitrogen isotope between (inconsistently defined) domestic cattle and wild aurochs, but no figures or statistics are presented to support this claim. Please describe the statistical method used and the corresponding p-values. The authors can consider including a figure to better show the stable isotope results.

      In combination with updated tables, we have added a supplementary figure showing the stable isotope results (S9). In light of the reanalysis of the genetic data, we have reassessed the genetic models used to assign species in the stable isotope analysis. We have provided more details of the statistical methods used and the p-values are given in the supplementary materials. There is a significant difference in the nitrogen isotope values when comparing B. taurus and B. primigenius (identified on morphology) but no other comparisons are significant at the p = 0.05 threshold. The reviewer highlights what we have mentioned in the supplementary material regarding the varied skeletal elements used for stable isotope analysis and the difficulty of assigning a species identity (as this depends on what criteria are used; morphological or some kind of genetic threshold of ancestry). Indeed, how to identify the species is at the heart of the paper. Given that identity could be defined in many ways, we have used 3 different genetic models to reflect this and the morphological categories, to help explore different possible scenarios. The reviewer is correct to point out that some of this analysis is not helped by the variety of skeletal elements used, but we have been careful not to over-interpret the results. The only samples that have nitrogen values higher than one standard deviation from the mean are domestic cattle, so it is not unreasonable to suggest that only domestic cattle have high nitrogen isotope values.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Günther and colleagues leverage ancient DNA data to track the genomic history of one of the most important farm animals (cattle) in Iberia, a region showing peculiarities both in terms of cultural practices as well as a climatic refugium during the LGM, the latter of which could have allowed the survival of endemic lineages. They document interesting trends of hybridisation with wild aurochs over the last 8-9 millennia, including a stabilisation of auroch ancestry ~4000 years ago, at ~20%, a time coincidental with the arrival of domestic horses from the Pontic steppe. Modern breeds such as the iconic Lidia used in bullfighting or bull running retain a comparable level of auroch ancestry.

      Strengths:

      The generation of ancient DNA data has been proven crucial to unravel the domestication history of traditional livestock, and this is challenging due to the environmental conditions of the Iberian peninsula, less favourable to DNA preservation. The authors leverage samples unearthed from key archaeological sites in Spain, including the karstic system of Atapuerca. Their results provide fresher insights into past management practices, and permit characterisation of significant shifts in hybridization with wild aurochs.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive assessment of our work and for highlighting the strength and potential of the study.

      Weaknesses:

      - Treatment of post-mortem damage: the base quality of nucleotide transitions was recalibrated down to a quality score of 2, but for 5bp from the read termini only. In some specimens (e.g. moo022), the damage seems to extend further. Why not use dedicated tools (e.g. mapDamage), or check the robustness by conditioning on nucleotide transversions?

      We agree that using such a non-standard data preparation approach requires some testing. Since our main analyses are all based on f statistics, we compared f4 statistics and f4 ratios of our rescaled base quality data with data only using transversion sites. While estimates are highly correlated, the data set reduced to transversions produces larger confidence intervals in f4 ratios due to the lower number of sites. Consequently, we decided to use the rescaled data for all analyses displayed in main figures. We also prefer not to perform reference based rescaling as implemented in mapDamage as it might be sensitive to mapping bias (Günther & Nettelblad 2019).

      - Their more solid analyses are based on qpAdm, but rely on two single-sample donor populations. As the authors openly discuss, it is unclear whether CPC98 is a good proxy for Iberian aurochs despite possibly forming a monophyletic clade (the number of analysed sites is simply too low to assess this monophyly; Supplementary Table S2). Additionally, it is also unclear whether Sub1 was a fully unadmixed domestic specimen, depleted of auroch ancestry. The authors seem to suggest themselves that sex-biased introgression may have already taken place in Anatolia ("suggesting that sex-biased processes already took place prior to the arrival of cattle to Iberia").

      We expanded the discussion on this topic but removed the analysis of whether European aurochs form a clade due to the low number of sites. We do highlight that a recent parallel study on aurochs genomes confirmed that Western European aurochs form a clade, probably even originating from an Iberian glacial refugium (Rossi et al 2024). Even if minor structure in the gene pool of European aurochs might affect our quantitative results, it should not drive the qualitative pattern. The same should be the case for Sub1 as our tests would detect additional European aurochs ancestry that was not present in Sub1. The corresponding paragraph now reads:

      “A limitation of this analysis is the availability of genomes that can be used as representatives of the source populations as we used German and British aurochs to represent western European aurochs ancestry and a single Anatolian Neolithic to represent the original domestic cattle that was introduced into Europe. Our Mesolithic Iberian aurochs contained too little endogenous DNA to be used as a proxy aurochs reference and all Neolithic and Chalcolithic samples estimated with predominantly aurochs ancestry (including the 2.7x genome of moo014) already carry low (but significant) levels of domestic ancestry. However, the fact that all of these aurochs samples carried P mitochondria strongly suggests that western European aurochs can be considered monophyletic. Furthermore, a recent parallel study also concluded that Western European aurochs all form a clade (27). The Anatolian Sub1 might also not be depleted of any European aurochs ancestry and could not fully represent the original European Neolithic gene pool as also indicated by qpAdm and Struct-f4 identifying small proportions of other Asian ancestries in some Iberian individuals.

      While these caveats should affect our quantitative estimates of European aurochs ancestry, they should not drive the qualitative pattern as our tests would still detect any excess European aurochs ancestry that was not present in Neolithic Anatolia.”

      Alternatively, I recommend using Struct-f4 as it can model the ancestry of all individuals together based on their f4 permutations, including outgroups and modern data, and without the need to define pure "right" and "left" populations such as CPC98 and Sub1. It should work with low-coverage data, and allows us to do f4-based MDS plots as well as to estimate ancestry proportions (including from ghost populations).

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We added Struct-f4 as an analysis but observed that it would not converge in an individual-based analysis due to the low coverage of most of our samples. We added Struct-f4 results for samples with >0.1X to the new Table 1, the results are similar to the results obtained using f4 ratios and (to a lower degree) the qpAdm results.

      - In the admixture graph analyses (supplementary results), the authors use population groups based on a single sample. If these samples are pseudohaploidised (or if coverage is insufficient to estimate heterozygosity - and it is at least for moo004 and moo014), f3 values are biased, implying that the fitted graph may be wrong. The graph shown in Fig S7 is in fact hard to interpret. For example, the auroch Gyu2 from Anatolia but not the auroch CPC98 also from Anatolia received 62% of ancestry from North Africa? The Neolithic samples moo004 and moo014 also show the same shocking disparity. I would consider re-doing this analysis with more than a sample per population group

      There seems to be some confusion relating to the sample identity in these figures. CPC98 is British and not Anatolian while Gyu2 is from the Caucasus and not Anatolia which would explain why they are different. Furthermore, moo004 is mostly of domestic ancestry while, moo014 is mostly of European aurochs ancestry according to our other analyses, which should explain why they also behave differently in this analysis. To avoid confusion and since this is a supplementary analysis from which we are not drawing any major conclusions, we decided to remove the graphs and the analysis from the study.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Fig 3A: The red regression line is misleading. It seems to show that the average aurochs ancestry fraction has been steadily decreasing since ~8000 years ago, but the "averaging" is not meaningful as not all samples necessarily represent domestic cattle remains and the sample size is rather small. In other words, the samples are just a small, random collection of domestic and wild animals, and the average ancestry is subject to large sampling noise. I would suggest removing the regression line (along with the associated confidence interval) in this figure. It would also be helpful to label the samples with their IDs and morphology in the plot for cross-reference with other figures. Also, it is said in the legend that "Modern Iberian breeds... are added around date 0 with some vertical jitter". Do the authors mean "horizontal jitter" instead?

      Thank you for noticing this! We have removed the regression line and corrected the figure legend.

      Fig 2 vs Fig 3A: are the error bars the same in these two plots? They seem to be highly similar, if not identical, but the legends read very differently ("95% confidence interval by block-jackknife vs. on standard error"). Please explain.

      The figure legends have been corrected.

      Fig 3B: What do the error bars in Fig 3B mean? 95% confidence interval or one standard error? Please clarify in the legend.

      We have removed this figure and replaced it with a different way of displaying the results (now Figure 3). We ensured that the error bars are displayed consistently across figures.

      According to the f4 statistics shown in Fig 1C and Fig 3B, moo012b carries a relatively high amount of domestic ancestry. How is this compatible with the observation in Fig 2 that this individual can be modeled with 100% aurochs (i.e., aurochs as the single source)? Does this simply reflect the low genome coverage?

      moo012b is indeed one of the lowest coverage samples in our has at <0.02x sequencing depth. Even in our revised analysis using more sites, there is a discrepancy between the results of f4 statistics and qpAdm (suggesting mostly domestic ancestry) and f4 ratio suggesting mostly aurochs ancestry (Figure 1C and Table 1). We believe that this highlights the sensitivity of different methods to assumptions about the relationships of sources and potential “outgroups” which might not be well resolvable with low coverage data and in the presence of potentially complex admixture. Our general results, however, do not depend on the estimates for single individuals as our interpretations are based on the general pattern.

      I don't fully understand the rationale behind the statement "However, at some point, the herding practices must have changed since modern Iberian breeds show approximately 20-25% aurochs ancestry". Can the stable ancestry fraction from 4000 years to the present (relative to the highly variable ancestry before) reflect of discontinuation of hunting rather than changes in herding practices?

      We agree that this statement was not justified here, we rephrased the sentence to “In fact, from the Bronze Age onwards, most estimates overlap with the approximately 25% aurochs ancestry in modern Iberian cattle” and generally tried to make the text more nuanced on the issue of herding and hunting practices.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Thanks for this interesting piece of work. The results are clearly presented, and I have no additional concerns other than those reflected in the public report, except perhaps:

      (i) trying to use more informative sample names (eg. including the date and location). It may facilitate reading without going back and forth to the table "Sample List".

      We have now added a main table listing our post-Mesolithic samples together with their age, site and estimated aurochs ancestry proportions. We hope that his table makes it easier for readers to follow our sample IDs.

      (ii) Briefly describe in the main the age of aurochs and Sub1 not generated in this study.

      Fixed.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Meissner et al describe an update on the collection of split-GAL4 lines generated by a consortium led by Janelia Research Campus. This follows the same experimental pipeline described before and presents as a significant increment to the present collection. This will strengthen the usefulness and relevance of "splits" as a standard tool for labs that already use this tool and attract more labs and researchers to use it.

      Strengths:

      This manuscript presents a solid step to establish Split-GAL4 lines as a relevant tool in the powerful Drosophila toolkit. Not only does the raw number of available lines contribute to the relevance of this tool in the "technical landscape" of genetic tools, but additional features of this effort contribute to the successful adoption. These include:

      (1) A description of expression patterns in the adult and larvae, expanding the "audience" for these tools

      (2) A classification of line combination according to quality levels, which provides a relevant criterion while deciding to use a particular set of "splits".

      (3) Discrimination between male and female expression patterns, providing hints regarding the potential role of these gender-specific circuits.

      (4) The search engine seems to be user-friendly, facilitating the retrieval of useful information.

      Overall, the authors employed a pipeline that maximizes the potential of the Split-GAL4 collection to the scientific community.

      Weaknesses:

      The following aspects apply:

      The use of split-GAL4 lines has improved tremendously the genetic toolkit of Drosophila and this manuscript is another step forward in establishing this tool in the genetic repertoire that laboratories use. Thus, this would be a perfect opportunity for the authors to review the current status of this tool, addressing its caveats and how to effectively implement it into the experimental pipeline.

      (1) While the authors do bring up a series of relevant caveats that the community should be aware of while using split-GAL4 lines, the authors should take the opportunity to address some of the genetic issues that frequently arise while using the described genetic tools. This is particularly important for laboratories that lack the experience using split-GAL4 lines and wish to use them. Some of these issues are covertly brought up, but not entirely clarified.

      First, why do the authors (wisely) rescreen the lines using UAS-CsChrimson-mVenus? One reason is that using another transgene (such as UAS-GFP) and/or another genomic locus can drive a different expression pattern or intensities. Although this is discussed, this should be made more explicit and the readers should be aware of this.

      Second, it would be important to include a discussion regarding the potential of hemidriver lines to suffer from transvection effects whenever there is a genetic element in the same locus. These are serious issues that prevent a more reliable use of split-GAL4 lines that, once again, should be discussed.

      We added additional explanatory text to the discussion.

      (2) The authors simply mention that the goal of the manuscript is to "summarize the results obtained over the past decade.". A better explanation would be welcomed in order to understand the need of a dedicated manuscript to announce the availability of a new batch of lines when previous publications already described the Split-GAL4 lines. At the extreme, one might question why we need a manuscript for this when a simple footnote on Janelia's website would suffice.

      We added an additional mention of the cell type split-GAL4 collection at the relevant section and added more emphasis on the curation process adding value to the final selections. We feel that the manuscript is useful to document the methods used for the contained analysis and datasets and gives a starting point to the reader to go through the many split-GAL4 publications and images.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary: This manuscript describes the creation and curation of a collection of genetic driver lines that specifically label small numbers of neurons, often just a single to handful of cell types, in the central nervous system of the fruit fly, Drosophila melanogaster. The authors screened over 77,000 split hemidriver combinations to yield a collection of 3060 lines targeting a range of cell types in the adult Drosophila central nervous system and 1373 lines characterized in third-instar larvae. These genetic driver lines have already contributed to several important publications and will no doubt continue to do so. It is a truly valuable resource that represents the cooperation of several labs throughout the Drosophila community.

      Strengths:

      The authors have thoughtfully curated and documented the lines that they have created, so that they may be maximally useful to the greater community. This documentation includes confocal images of neurons labeled by each driver line and when possible, a list of cell types labeled by the genetic driver line and their identity in an EM connectome dataset. The authors have also made available some information from the other lines they created and tested but deemed not specific or strong enough to be included as part of the collection. This additional resource will be a valuable aid for those seeking to label cell types that may not be included in the main collection.

      Weaknesses:

      None, this is a valuable set of tools that took many years of effort by several labs. This collection will continue to facilitate important science for years to come.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive feedback.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Meissner et al. describes a collection of 3060 Drosophila lines that can be used to genetically target very small numbers of brain cells. The collection is the product of over a decade of work by the FlyLight Project Team at the Janelia Research Campus and their collaborators. This painstaking work has used the intersectional split-Gal4 method to combine pairs of so-called hemidrivers into driver lines capable of highly refined expression, often targeting single cell types. Roughly one-third of the lines have been described and characterized in previous publications and others will be described in manuscripts still in preparation. They are brought together here with many new lines to form one high-quality collection of lines with exceptional selectivity of expression. As detailed in the manuscript, all of the lines described have been made publicly available accompanied by an online database of images and metadata that allow researchers to identify lines containing neurons of interest to them. Collectively, the lines include neurons in most regions of both the adult and larval nervous systems, and the imaging database is intended to eventually permit anatomical searching that can match cell types targeted by the lines to those identified at the EM level in emerging connectomes. In addition, the manuscript introduces a second, freely accessible database of raw imaging data for many lower quality, but still potentially useful, split-Gal4 driver lines made by the FlyLight Project Team.

      Strengths:

      Both the stock collection and the image databases are substantial and important resources that will be of obvious interest to neuroscientists conducting research in Drosophila. Although many researchers will already be aware of the basic resources generated at Janelia, the comprehensive description provided in this manuscript represents a useful summary of past and recent accomplishments of the FlyLight Team and their collaborators and will be very valuable to newcomers in the field. In addition, the new lines being made available and the effort to collect all lines that have been generated that have highly specific expression patterns is very useful to all.

      Weaknesses:

      The collection of lines presented here is obviously somewhat redundant in including lines from previously published collections. Potentially confusing is the fact that previously published split-Gal4 collections have also touted lines with highly selective expression, but only a fraction of those lines have been chosen for inclusion in the present manuscript. For example, the collection of Shuai et al. (2023) describes some 800 new lines, many with specificity for neurons with connectivity to the mushroom body, but only 168 of these lines were selected for inclusion here. This is presumably because of the more stringent criteria applied in selecting the lines described in this manuscript, but it would be useful to spell this out and explain what makes this collection different from those previously published (and those forthcoming).

      We added more description of how this collection is focused on the best cell-type-specific lines across the CNS. An important requirement for inclusion was this degree of specificity across the CNS, while many prior publications had a greater emphasis on lines with a narrower focus of specificity.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Luckily for us, genetics is for the most part an exact science. However, there's still some "voodoo" in a lot of genetic combinations that the authors should disclose and be as clear as possible in the manuscript. This allows for the potential users to gauge expectations and devise a priori alternative plans.

      We attempted to comprehensively cover the caveats inherent in our genetic targeting approach.

      Minor points:

      (1) The authors mention that fly age should be controlled as expression can vary. Is there any reference to support this claim?

      We added a reference describing driver expression changes over development.

      (2) There should be a citation for "Flies were typically 1-5 days old at dissection for the cell type collection rescreening, 1-8 days old for other non-MCFO crosses and 3-8 days old for MCFO".

      We clarified that these descriptions were of our experimental preparations, not describing other citable work.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      General Points:

      Overall, the manuscript is very clear, but there are a couple of points where more explicit information would be useful. One of these is with respect to the issue of selectivity of targeting. The cell type specificity of lines is often referred to, but cell types can range from single pairs of neurons to hundreds of indistinguishable neurons with similar morphology and function. It would be useful if the authors explained whether their use of the term "cell type" distinguishes cell type from cell number. It would also be useful if lines that target many neurons of a single cell type were identified.

      We added further discussion of cell types vs. cell numbers. Our labeling strategy was not optimized for counting cell numbers labeled by each line. We believe EM studies are best positioned to comprehensively evaluate the number of cells making up each type.

      The second point relates to vagueness about the intended schedule for providing resources that will match (or allow matching of) neurons to the connectome. For example, on pp. 5-6 it is stated that: "In the future all of the neurons in these lines will be uniquely identified and linked to neurons reconstructed in the electron microscopy volume of the larva" but no timeline is provided. Similarly, for the adult neurons it is stated on p. 4 that: "Anatomical searching for comparison to other light microscopy (LM) and EM data is being made available." A more explicit statement about what resources are and are not yet available, a timeline for full availability, and an indication of how many lines currently have been matched to EM data would be helpful.

      During the review and revision period we have made progress on processing the images in the collection. We updated the text with the current status and anticipated timeline for completion.

      Specific Points:

      p. 4 "Although the lines used for these comparisons are not a random sample, the areas of greatest difference are in the vicinity of previously described sexual dimorphisms..." In the vicinity of is a very vague statement of localization. A couple of examples of what is meant here would be useful.

      We added example images to Figure 3.

      p. 5 "...may have specific expression outside our regions of interest." It's not clear what "our regions of interest" refers to here. Please clarify.

      We clarified that we were referring to the regions studied in the publications listed in Table 1.

      p. 5 "...lines that were sparse in VNC but dirty in the brain or SEZ..." A more quantitative descriptor than "dirty" would be helpful.

      We unfortunately did not quantify the extent of undesired brain/SEZ expression, but attempted to clarify the statement.

      p. 6 "...the images are being made instantly searchable for LM and EM comparisons at NeuronBridge..." Here again it is hard to know what is meant by "being made instantly searchable." How many have been made searchable and what is the bottleneck in making the rest searchable?

      We updated the text as described above. The bottleneck has been available processing capacity for the hundreds of thousands of included images.

      Figure 1 Supplemental File 2: The movie is beautiful, but it seems more useful as art than as a reference. Perhaps converting it to a pdf of searchable images for each line would make it more useful.

      We replaced the movie with a searchable PDF.

      Fig. 2(B) legend: "Other lines may have more than two types." It is not clear what "other lines" are being referred to.

      As part of making the quality evaluation more robust, we scored lines for the clear presence of three or more cell types. We updated the text accordingly.

      Fig. 2(C): Presumably the image shown is an example of variability in expression rather than weakness, but it is hard to know without a point of comparison. Perhaps show the expression patterns of other samples? Or describe briefly in the legend what other samples looked like?

      We added Figure 2 - figure supplement 1 with examples of variable expression in a split-GAL4 line.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Comments on revised version: 

      Overall, I thought the authors addressed my comments well with the possible exception of what is actually new here. This was the most important thing that I thought should be included in the revision. Although the authors rewrote the paragraph describing the lines presented in the paper, I still can't tell exactly which ones haven't been previously published. Their revised paragraph says that 40 lines have been "previously used," but Supplemental Table 1 shows references for over 200 of the lines, which sounds more reasonable based on papers that have come out. 

      We have modified the text in line 112-120 as below.

      “Supplementary File 1 lists 859 lines (including split-LexA) and their detailed information, such as genotype, expression specificity, matched EM cell type(s), and recommended driver for each cell type. A small subset of 47 lines from this collection have been previously used in studies (Aso et al., 2023; Dolan et al., 2019; Gao et al., 2019; Scaplen et al., 2021; Schretter et al., 2020; Takagi et al., 2017; Xie et al., 2021; Yamada et al., 2023).”

      For 842 lines among the 859 lines listed in Supplementary File 1, this study is the primary citation for future papers for the following reason: 

      In 2021 December, we deposited the confocal images of new split-GAL4 lines at Janelia Flylight website (http://www.janelia.org/split-gal4) without a publication to describe annotation of expression patterns, and we already started sharing the lines without restrictions. In 2023 September, we released the preprint of this study at bioRxiv (doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2023.09.15.557808). Up to this point, 47 lines have been used in other studies. In Supplementary File 1, 30 of them attribute the citation credit to both this study and other papers, because this 2023 preprint was cited as the primary citation in those papers. Similarly, the omni paper to summarize all the eWort of generating split-GAL4 lines by Janelia Flylight team (https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.98405.1) cite many lines from this paper. However, since this summary paper did not provide additional information such as functional characterization by behavioral experiments, we did not include it in Supplementary File 1 to clarify that this study is the primary citation for these lines. The remaining 17 lines were published before 2021. We included them for the convenience of users, and we attributed the primary citation to the already published papers. 

      Also, in the revised paragraph they state that "All transgenic lines newly generated in this study are listed in Supplementary File 2" but that table lists only the 36 LexA hemidriver lines! Confusingly, this comment cites the same 8 references as are cited for the 40 line that they say were previously published. I am thus only more confused about how many previously uncharacterized lines are presented in this paper. 

      We modified the text as below to clarify that “new lines” indicate LexA or DBD lines but not new combination of already published AD and DBD lines. We removed the 8 citations, which were mistakenly placed in the previous manuscript.

      “The newly generated LexA, Gal4DBD and LexADBD lines are listed in Supplementary File 2. “

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) All analyses were performed on trial-averaged neural responses that were pooled across mice. Owing to differences between subjects in behavior, experimental preparation quality, and biological variability, it seems important to perform at least some analyses on individual analyses to assess how behavioral training might differently affect each animal.

      In order to image at a relatively fast rate (30Hz) appropriate to the experimental conditions, we restricted our imaging to a relatively small field of view (412x412um with 512x512 pixels). This entails a smaller number of ROIs per animal, which can lead to an unbalanced distribution of cells responsive to different stimuli for individual fields-of-view. We used the common approach of pooling across animals (Homann et al., 2021; Kim et al., 2019) to overcome limitations imposed by sampling a smaller number of cells per animal. In response to this comment, we included supplemental analyses (Sup.Fig. 6) showing that representational drift (which was not performed on trial-averaged data) looks substantially the same (albeit nosier) for individual animals as at the population level. Additional analyses (PE ratio, etc.) were difficult since the distribution of cells selective for individual stimuli is unbalanced between individual animals and few mice have multiple cells representing all of the different stimuli.

      (2) The correlation analyses presented in Figure 3 (labeled the second Figure 2 in the text) should be conducted on a single-animal basis. Studying population codes constructed by pooling across mice, particularly when there is no behavioral readout to assess whether learning has had similar effects on all animals, appears inappropriate to me. If the results in Figure 3 hold up on single animals, I think that is definitely an interesting result.

      We repeated the correlation analysis performed on mice individually and included them in the supplement (Supp. Fig. 6). The overall result generally mirrors the result found by pooling across animals.

      (3) On Day 0 and Day 5, the reordered stimuli are presented in trial blocks where each image sequence is shown 100 times. Why wasn't the trial ordering randomized as was done in previous studies (e.g. Gavornik and Bear 2014)? Given this lack of reordering, did neurons show reduced predictive responses because the unexpected sequence was shown so many times in quick succession? This might change the results seen in Figure 2, as well as the decoder results where there is a neural encoding of sequence order (Figure 4). It would be interesting if the Figure 4 decoder stopped working when the higher-order block structure of the task was disrupted.

      Our work builds primarily on previous studies (Gavornik & Bear, 2014; Price et al., 2023) that demonstrated clear changes in neural responses over days while employing a similar block structure. Notably, Price et al. found that trial number (within a block) was not a significant factor in the generation of prediction-error responses which strongly suggests short-term plasticity does not play a significant role in shaping responses within the block structure. This finding is consistent with our previous LFP recordings which have not revealed any significant plasticity occurring within a training session, a conclusion bolstered by a collaborative work currently in press (Hosmane et al. 2024, Sleep) revealing the requirement for sleep in sequence plasticity expression.

      It is possible that layer 2/3 adapts to sequences more rapidly than layer 4/5. While manual inspection does not reveal an obvious difference between early and late blocks in this dataset, the n for this subset is too small to draw firm conclusions. It is our view that the block structure provides the strongest comparison to previous work, but agree it would be interesting to randomize or fully interleave sequences in future studies to determine what effect, if any, short-term changes might have. 

      (4) A primary advantage of using two-photon calcium imaging over other techniques like extracellular electrophysiology is that the same neurons can be tracked over many days. This is a standard approach that can be accomplished by using many software packages-including Suite2P (Pachitariu et al. 2017), which is what the authors already used for the rest of their data preprocessing. The authors of this paper did not appear to do this. Instead, it appears that different neurons were imaged on Day 0 (baseline) and Day 5 (test). This is a significant weakness of the current dataset.

      The hypothesis being tested was whether expectation violations, as described in Keller & Mrsic-Flogel 2018, exist under a multi-day sequence learning paradigm. For this, tracking cells across days is not necessary as our PE metric compared responses of individual neurons to multiple stimuli within a single session. Given the speed/FOV tradeoff discussed above, we wanted to consider all cells irrespective of whether they were visible/active or trackable across days, especially since we would expect cells that learn to signal prediction errors to be inactive on day 0 and not selected by our segmentation algorithm. Though we did not compare the responses of single cells before/after training, we did analyze cells from the same field of view on days 0 and 5 (see Supp.Fig. 1) and not distinct populations.

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) There appears to be some confusion regarding the conceptual framing of predictive coding.

      Assuming the mouse learns to expect the sequence ABCD, then ABBD does not probe just for negative prediction errors, and ACBD is not just for positive prediction errors. With ABBD, there is a combination of a negative prediction error for the missing C in the 3rd position, and a positive prediction error for B in the 3rd. Likewise, with ACBD, there is a negative prediction error for the missing B at 2nd and missing C at 3rd, and a positive prediction error for the C in 2nd and B in 3rd. Thus, the authors' experimental design does not have the power to isolate either negative or positive prediction errors. Moreover, looking at the raw data in Figure 2C, this does not look like an "omission" response to C, but more like a stronger response to a longer B. The pitch of the paper as investigating prediction error responses is probably not warranted - we see no way to align the authors' results with this interpretation.

      The reviewer has identified a real problem with the framing of “positive” and “negative” prediction errors in context of sensory stimuli where substitution simultaneously introduces unexpected “positive” violation and “negative” omission. Simply put, even if there are separate mechanisms to represent positive and negative errors, there may be no way to isolate the positive response experimentally since an unexpected input always replaces the unseen expected input. For example, had a cell fired solely to ACBD (and not during either ABCD or ABCD), then whether it was signaling the unexpected occurrence of C or the unexpected absence of B would be inherently ambiguous. In either case, such a cell would have been labeled as C-responsive, and its activity would have been elevated compared with ABCD and would have been included in our substitution-type analysis of prediction errors. We accept that there is some ambiguity regarding the description in this particular case, but overall, this cell’s activity pattern would have informed the PE analysis for which the result was essentially null for the substitution-type violation ACBD.

      Omission, in which the sensory input does not change, may experimentally isolate the negative response though this is only true if there is a temporal expectation of when the change should have occurred. If A is predicting B in an ordinal sense but there is no expectation of when B will occur with respect to A, changing the duration of A would not be expected to produce an error signal since at any point in time B might still be coming and the expectation is not broken until something other than B occurs. With respect specifically to ABBD in our experiments, it is correct that the learned error responses take the form of stronger, sustained responses to B during the time C was expected. This is still in contrast to day 0 in which activation decays after a transient response to ABBD. The data shows that responses during an omitted element are altered with training and take the form of elevated responses to ABBD on day 5.As we say in our discussion, this is somewhat ambiguous evidence of prediction errors since it does emerges only with training and is generally consistent with the hypothesis being tested though it takes a different form than we expected it to.

      (2) Related to the interpretation of the findings, just because something can be described as a prediction error does not mean it is computed in (or even is relevant to) the visual cortex. To the best of our knowledge, it is still unclear where in the visual stream the responses described here are computed. It is possible that this type of computation happens before the signals reach the visual cortex, similar to mechanisms predicting moving stimuli already in the retina (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10192333/). This would also be consistent with the authors' finding (in previous work) that single-cell recordings in V1 exhibit weaker sequence violation responses than the author's earlier work using LFP recordings.

      Our work was aimed at testing the specific hypothesis that PE responses, at the very least, exist in L2/3—a hypothesis that is well-supported under different experimental paradigms (often multisensory mismatch). Our aim was to test this idea under a sequence learning paradigm and connect it with previously found PE responses in L4. We don’t claim that it is the only place in which prediction errors may be computed or useful, especially since (as you mentioned), there is evidence for such responses in layer 4. But it is fundamentally important to predictive processing that we determine whether PE responses can be found in layer 2/3 under this passive sequence learning paradigm, whether or not they reflect upstream processes, feedback from higher areas, or entirely local computations. Our aim was to establish some baseline evidence for or against predictive processing accounts of L2/3 activity during passive exposure to visual sequences.

      (3) Recording from the same neurons over the course of this paradigm is well within the technical standards of the field, and there is no reason not to do this. Given that the authors chose to record from different neurons, it is difficult to distinguish representational drift from drift in the population of neurons recorded.

      Our discussion of drift refers to changes occurring within a population of neurons over the course of a single imaging session. We have added clarifying language to the manuscript to make this clear. Changes to the population-level encoding of stimuli over days are treated separately and with different analytical tools. Re. tracking single across days, please see the response to Reviewer #1, comment 4.

      (4) The block paradigm to test for prediction errors appears ill-chosen. Why not interleave oddball stimuli randomly in a sequence of normal stimuli? The concern is related to the question of how many repetitions it takes to learn a sequence. Can the mice not learn ACBD over 100x repetitions? The authors should definitely look at early vs. late responses in the oddball block. Also, the first few presentations after the block transition might be potentially interesting. The authors' analysis in the paper already strongly suggests that the mice learn rather rapidly. The authors conclude: "we expected ABCD would be more-or-less indistinguishable from ABBD and ACBD since A occurs first in each sequence and always preceded by a long (800 ms) gray period.

      This was not the case. Most often, the decoder correctly identified which sequence stimulus A came from." This would suggest that whatever learning/drift could happen within one block did indeed happen and responses to different sequences are harder to interpret.

      This work builds on previous studies that used a block structure to drive plasticity across days. We previously tested whether there are intra-block effects and found no indication of changes occurring within a block or withing a session (please see the response to Reviewer #1, comment 3 for further discussion). Observed drift does complicate comparison between blocks. There is no indication in our data that this is a learned effect, though future experiments could test this directly.

      (5) Throughout the manuscript, many of the claims are not statistically tested, and where they are the tests do not appear to be hierarchical (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24671065/), even though the data are likely nested.

      We have modified language throughout the manuscript to be more precise about our claims. We used pooled data between mice and common parametric statistics in line with published literature. The referenced paper offers a broad critique of this approach, arguing that it increases the possibility of type 1 errors, though it is not clear to us that our experimental design carries this risk particularly since most of our results were negative. To address the specific concern, however we performed a non-parametric hierarchical bootstrap analysis (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7906290/) that re-confirmed the statistical significance of our positive results, see Supplemental Figure 8.

      (6) The manuscript would greatly benefit from thorough proofreading (not just in regard to figure references).

      We apologize for the errors in the manuscript. We caught the issue and passed on a corrected draft, but apparently the uncorrected draft was sent for review. The re-written manuscript addresses all identified issues.

      (7) With a sequence of stimuli that are 250ms in length each, the use of GCaMP6s appears like a very poor choice.

      We started our experiments using GCaMP6f but ultimately switched to GCaMP6s due to its improved sensitivity, brightness, and accuracy in spike detection (Huang et al., 2021). When combined with deconvolution (Pachitariu et al., 2018; Pnevmatikakis et al., 2016), we found GCaMP6s provides the most complete and accurate view of spiking within 40ms time bins. The inherent limitations of calcium imaging are more likely to be addressed using electrophysiology rather than a faster sensor in future studies.

      (8) The data shown are unnecessarily selective. E.g. it would probably be interesting to see how the average population response evolves with days. The relevant question for most prediction error interpretations would be whether there are subpopulations of neurons that selectively respond to any of the oddballs. E.g. while the authors state they "did" not identify a separate population of omission-responsive neurons, they provide no evidence for this. However, it is unclear whether the block structure of the experiments allows the authors to analyze this.

      We concluded that there is no clear dedicated subpopulation of omission-responding cells by inspecting cells with large PE responses (i.e., ABBD, see supplemental figure 3). Out of the 107 B-responsive cells on day 5, only one appeared to fire exclusively during the omitted stimulus. Average traces for all B-responsive cells are included in the supplement and we have updated the manuscript accordingly. Similarly, a single C-responsive cell was found with an apparently unique substitution error profile (ABCD and ACBD , supplemental figure 4).

      Our primary concern was to make sure that days 0 and 5 had the highest quality fields-of-view. In work leading up to this study, there were concerns that imaging on all intermediate days resulted in a degradation of quality due to photobleaching. We agree that an analysis of intermediate days would be interesting, but it was excluded due to these concerns. 

      Reviewer #3:

      (1) Experimental design using a block structure. The use of a block structure on test days (0 and 5) in which sequences were presented in 100 repetition blocks leads to several potential confounds. First, there is the potential for plasticity within blocks, which could alter the responses and induce learned expectations. The ability of the authors to clearly distinguish blocks 1 and 2 on Day 0 with a decoder suggests this change over time may be meaningful.

      Repeating the experiments with fully interleaved sequences on test days would alleviate this concern. With the existing data, the authors should compare responses from the first trials in a block to the last trials in a block.

      This block design likely also accounts for the ability of a decoder to readily distinguish stimulus A in ABCD from A in ABBD. As all ABCD sequences were run in a contiguous block separate from ABBD, the recent history of experience is different for A stimuli in ABCD versus ABBD. Running fully interleaved sequences would also address this point, and would also potentially mitigate the impact of drift over blocks (discussed below).

      As described in other responses, the block structure was chosen to align more closely with previous studies. We take the overall point though, and future studies will employ the suggested randomized or interleaved structure in addition to block structures to investigate the effects of short-term plasticity.

      (2) The computation of prediction error differs significantly for omission as opposed to substitutions, in meaningful ways the authors do not address. For omission errors, PE compares the responses of B1 and B2 within ABBD blocks. These responses are measured from the same trial, within tens of milliseconds of each other. In contrast, substitution PE is computed by comparing C in ABCD to C in ACBD. As noted above, the block structure means that these C responses were recorded in different blocks, when the state of the brain could be different. This may account for the authors' detection of prediction error for omission but not substitution. To address this, the authors should calculate PE for omission using B responses from ABCD.

      We performed the suggested analysis (i.e., ABBD vs ABCD) prior to submission but omitted it from the draft for brevity (the effect was the same as with ABBD vs ABBD). We have added the results of standardizing with ABCD as supplementary figure 3.

      (3) The behavior of responses to B and C within the trained sequence ABCD differs considerably, yet is not addressed. Responses to B in ABCD potentiate from d0-> d5, yet responses to C in the same sequence go down. This suggests there may be some difference in either the representation of B vs C or position 2 vs 3 in the sequence that may also be contributing to the appearance of prediction errors in ABBD but not ACBD. The authors do not appear to consider this point, which could potentially impact their results. Presenting different stimuli for A,B,C,D across mice would help (in the current paper B is 75 deg and C is 165 deg in all cases). Additionally, other omissions or substitutions at different sequence positions should be tested (eg ABCC or ABDC).

      We appreciate the suggestion. Ideally, we could test many different variants, but practical concerns regarding the duration of the imaging sessions prevented us from testing other interesting variations (such as ABCC) in the current study. We are uncertain as to how we should interpret the overall depressed response to element C seen on day 5, but since the effect is shared in both ABCD and ACBD, we don’t think it affected our PE calculations. 

      (4) The authors' interpretation of their PCA results is flawed. The authors write "Experience simplifies activity in principal component space". This is untrue based on their data. The variance explained by the first set of PCs does not change with training, indicating that the data is not residing in a lower dimensional ("simpler") space. Instead, the authors show that the first 5 PCs better align with their a priori expectations of the stimulus structure, but that does not mean these PCs necessarily represent more information about the stimulus (and the fact that the authors fail to see an improvement in decoding performance argues against this case). Addressing such a question would be highly interesting, but is lacking in the current manuscript. Without such analysis, referring to the PCs after training as "highly discretized" and "untangled" are largely meaningless descriptions that lack analytical support.

      We meant the terms “simpler”, “highly-discretized”, and “untangled” as qualitative descriptions of changes in covariance structure that occurred despite the maintenance of overall dimensionality. As the reviewer notes, the obvious changes in PC space appear to have had practically no effect on decodability or dimensionality, and we found this surprising and worth describing.

      (5) The authors report that activity sparsifies, yet provide only the fraction of stimulus-selective cells. Given that cell detection was automated in a manner that takes into account neural activity (using Suite2p), it is difficult to interpret these results as presented. If the authors wish to claim sparsification, they need to provide evidence that the total number of ROIs drawn on each day (the denominator for sparseness in their calculation) is unbiased. Including more (or less) ROIs can dramatically change the calculated sparseness.

      The authors mention sparsification as contributing to coding efficiency but do not test this. Training a decoder on variously sized subsets of their data on days 0 and 5 would test whether redundant information is being eliminated in the network over training.

      First, we provide evidence for sparseness using a visual responsiveness metric in addition to stimulus-selectivity. Second, it is true that Suite2p’s segmentation is informed by activity and therefore may possibly omit cells with very minimal activity. However, we detected a comparable number of cells on day 5 (n=1500) to day 0 (1368). We reportedly roughly half as many cells are stimulus-selective on day 5 compared with day 0. In order for that to have been a result of biased ROI segmentation, we would have needed to have detected closer to 2600 cells on day 5 rather than 1500.  Therefore, we consider any bias in the segmentation to have had little effect on the main findings.

      (6) The authors claim their results show representational drift, but this isn't supported in the data. Rather they show that there is some information in the structure of activity that allows a decoder to learn block ID. But this does not show whether the actual stimulus representations change, and could instead reflect an unrelated artifact that changes over time (responsivity, alertness, bleaching, etc). To actually assess representational drift, the authors should directly compare representations across blocks (one could train a decoder on block 1 and test on blocks 2-5). In the absence of this or other tests of representational drift over blocks, the authors should remove the statement that "These findings suggest that there is a measurable amount of representational drift".

      “To actually assess representational drift, the authors should directly compare representations across blocks (one could train a decoder on block 1 and test on blocks 25)”: This is the exact analysis that was performed. Additionally, our analysis of pairwise correlations directly measures representational drift.

      “But this does not show whether the actual stimulus representations change, and could instead reflect an unrelated artifact that changes over time (responsivity, alertness, bleaching, etc)”: We have repeated the decoder analysis using normalized population vectors (Supplementary Figure 5) which we believe directly addresses whether the observed drift is due to photobleaching or alertness that would affect the overall magnitudes of response vectors.

      Our analysis of block decoding reflects decoders trained on individual stimulus elements, and we show the average over all such decodings (we have clarified this in the text). For example, we trained a decoder on ABCD presentations from block 1 and tested only against ABCD from other blocks, which I believe is the test being suggested by the reviewer. Furthermore, we do show that representational similarity for all stimulus elements reduces gradually and more-or-less monotonically as the time between presentations increases. We believe this is a fairly straightforward test of representational drift as has been reported and used elsewhere (Deitch et al., 2021).

      (7) The authors allude to "temporal echoes" in a subheading. This term is never defined, or substantiated with analysis, and should be removed.

      We hoped the term ‘temporal echo’ would be understood in the context of rebounding activity during gray periods as supported by analysis in figure 6a. We have eliminated the wording in the updated manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors provide a method aiming to accurately reflect the individual deviation of longitudinal/temporal change compared to the normal temporal change characterized based on pre-trained population normative model (i.e., a Bayesian linear regression normative model), which was built based on cross-sectional data. This manuscript aims at solving a recently identified problem of using normative models based on cross-sectional data to make inferences about longitudinal change.

      Strengths:

      The efforts of this work make a good contribution to addressing an important question of normative modeling. With the greater availability of cross-sectional studies for normative modeling than longitudinal studies, and the inappropriateness of making inferences about longitudinal subject-specific changes using these cross-sectional data-based normative models, it's meaningful to try to address this gap from the aspect of methodological development.

      In the 1st revision, the authors added a simulation study to show how the performance of the classification based on z-diff scores relatively changes with different disruptions (and autocorrelation). Unfortunately, in my view this is insufficient as it only shows how the performance of using z-diff score relatively changes in different scenarios. I would suggest adding the comparison of performance to using the naïve difference in two simple z-scores to first show its better performance, which should also further highlight the inappropriate use of simple z-scores in inferring within-subject longitudinal changes.

      Thank you for the suggestion for additional comparison, which we have now implemented in the simulated methods comparison, see Figure 2 and the extended text of Section 2.1.4 Simulation study.

      Specifically, we have revised the simulation section to not only illustrate the performance of our z-diff method under various scenarios but also to include a direct comparison with a naïve approach that subtracts two z-scores.

      The updated results demonstrate that, compared to the naïve method, the z-diff score consistently maintains a fixed false-positive rate, making it a more robust and controllable approach. Additionally, we show that under conditions of high autocorrelation, the z-diff method is significantly more sensitive in detecting smaller changes than the subtraction method. Importantly, our analysis of a sample from our dataset indicates that high autocorrelation is a prevalent characteristic in real-world data, further supporting the utility of the z-diff method.

      We believe that these findings strengthen the case for adopting the z-diff method and underscore the limitations of more intuitive approaches, which, while simple, lack mathematical rigour.

      Additionally, Figure 1 is hard to read and obtain the actual values of the performance measure. I would suggest reducing it to several 2-dimensional figures. For example, for several fixed values of rho, how the performance changes with different values of the true disruption (and also adding the comparison to the naïve method (difference in two z-scores)).

      We believe that the Reviewer meant Figure 2; indeed, the 3-dimensional visualization, while attractive to some, may have been difficult to read, so we have now replaced it with several 2-dimensional figures as requested.

      I would also suggest changing the title to reflect that the evaluation of "intra-subject" longitudinal change is the method's focus.

      Thanks for the suggestion. We have now implemented it by changing the title to Using normative models pre-trained on cross-sectional data to evaluate intra-individual longitudinal changes in neuroimaging data.

      We hope the changes implemented fulfill the expectations of the Reviewer.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This work aims to understand the role of thalamus POm in dorsal lateral striatum (DLS) projection in learning a sensorimotor associative task. The authors first confirm that POm forms "en passant" synapses with some of the DLS neuronal subtypes. They then perform a go/no-go associative task that consists of the mouse learning to discriminate between two different textures and to associate one of them with an action. During this task, they either record the activity of the POm to DLS axons using endoscopy or silence their activity. They report that POm axons in the DLS are activated around the sensory stimulus but that the activity is not modulated by the reward. Last, they showed that silencing the POm axons at the level of DLS slows down learning the task.

      The authors show convincing evidence of projections from POm to DLS and that POm inputs to DLS code for whisking whatever the outcome of the task is. However, their results do not allow us to conclude if more neurons are recruited during the learning process or if the already activated fibres get activated more strongly. Last, because POm fibres in the DLS are also projecting to S1, silencing the POm fibres in the DLS could have affected inputs in S1 as well and therefore, the slowdown in acquiring the task is not necessarily specific to the POm to DLS pathway.

      We thank the reviewer for these constructive comments. The points are addressed below.  

      Strengths:

      One of the main strengths of the paper is to go from slice electrophysiology to behaviour to get an in-depth characterization of one pathway. The authors did a comprehensive description of the POm projections to the DLS using transgenic mice to unambiguously identify the DLS neuronal population. They also used a carefully designed sensorimotor association task, and they exploited the results in depth.

      It is a very nice effort to have measured the activity of the axons in the DLS not only after the mice have learned the task but throughout the learning process. It shows the progressive increase of activity of POm axons in the DLS, which could imply that there is a progressive strengthening of the pathway. The results show convincingly that POm axons in the DLS are not activated by the outcome of the task but by the whisker activity, and that this activity on average increases with learning.

      Weaknesses:

      One of the main targets of the striatum from thalamic input are the cholinergic neurons that weren't investigated here, is there information that could be provided?

      This is true of the parafascicular (Pf) thalamic nucleus, which has been well studied in this context. However, there is much less known about the striatal projections of other thalamic nuclei, including POm, and their inputs to cholinergic neurons. Anatomical tracing evidence from Klug et al. (2018), which mapped brain-wide inputs to striatal cholinergic (ChAT) interneurons, suggests that Pf provides the majority of thalamic innervation of striatal ChAT neurons compared to other thalamic nuclei. Many other thalamic nuclei, including POm, showed very little of no labeling, suggesting weak innervation of ChAT interneurons. However, it is possible that these thalamic nuclei, including POm, do provide functional innervation of ChAT interneurons that is not sufficiently assessed by anatomical tracing. Understanding the innervation patterns of POm-striatal projections beyond the three cell types we have studied here would be an important area of further study.

      It is interesting to know that the POm projects to all neuronal types in the DLS, but this information is not used further down the manuscript so the only take-home message of Figure 1 is that the axons that they image or silence in the DLS are indeed connected to DLS neurons and not just passing fibres. In this line, are these axons the same as the ones projecting to S1? If this is the case, why would we expect a different behaviour of the axon activity at the DLS level compared to S1?

      Tracing of single POm axons by Ohno et al. (2012) indicated that POm axons form a branched collateral that innervates striatum, while the main axon continues in the rostral-dorsal direction to innervate cortex. We think it is reasonable, based on the morphology, that our optogenetic suppression experiment restricted the suppression of glutamate release to this branch and avoided the other branches of the axon that project to cortex. However, testing this would require monitoring S1 activity during the POm-striatal axon suppression, which we did not do in this study.

      It is a very interesting question whether there could be different axon activity behavior in striatum versus S1. There is surprising evidence that POm synaptic terminals are different sizes in S1 and M1 and show different synaptic physiological properties depending on these cortical projection targets (Casas-Torremocha et al., 2022). Based on this, it is possible that POm-striatal synapses show distinct properties compared to cortex; however, this will need to be tested in future work.

      The authors used endoscopy to measure the POm axons in the DLS activity, which makes it impossible to know if the progressive increase of POm response is due to an increase of activity from each individual neuron or if new neurons are progressively recruited in the process.

      This is a good point. It would be necessary to perform chronic two-photon imaging of POm neurons (or chronic electrophysiological recordings) to determine whether the activity of individual neurons increased versus whether individual neuron activity levels remained similar but new neurons became active with learning. Even under baseline conditions, it is not known in detail what fraction of the population of POm neurons is active during sensory processing or behavior, highlighting how much is still to be discovered in this exciting area of neuroscience.

      The picture presented in Figure 4 of the stimulation site is slightly concerning as there are hardly any fibres in neocortical layer 1 while there seems to be quite a lot of them in layer 4, suggesting that the animal here was injected in the VB. This is especially striking as the implantation and projection sites presented in Figures 1 and 2 are very clean and consistent with POm injection.

      Although this image was selected to demonstrate the position of the POm injection site and optical fiber implant above striatal axons, the reviewer is correct that there appears to be mixed labeling of axons in L4 and L5a. In some cases, there was expression slightly outside the border of POm (see Fig. 1B, right), which might explain the cortical innervation pattern in this figure. While cortically bound VPM axons pass through the striatum, they do not form synaptic terminals until reaching the cortex (Hunnicutt et al., 2016). If, as may be the case, inhibitory opsins suppress release of neurotransmitter at synaptic terminals more effectively than action potential propagation in axons, it may be likely that optogenetic suppression of POm-striatal terminals is more effective than suppression of action potentials in off-target-labelled VPM axons of passage. Ideally, we could compare effects of suppression of POm-striatal synapses with POm-cortical synapses and VPM-cortical synapses, but this was outside the bandwidth of the present study.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Yonk and colleagues show that the posterior medial thalamus (POm), which is interconnected with sensory and motor systems, projects directly to major categories of neurons in the striatum, including direct and indirect pathway MSNs, and PV interneurons. Activity in POm-striatal neurons during a sensory-based learning task indicates a relationship between reward expectation and arousal. Inhibition of these neurons slows reaction to stimuli and overall learning. This circuit is positioned to feed salient event activation to the striatum to set the stage for effective learning and action selection.

      Strengths:

      The results are well presented and offer interesting insight into an understudied thalamostriatal circuit. In general, this work is important as part of a general need for an increased understanding of thalamostriatal circuits in complex learning and action selection processes, which have generally received less attention than corticostriatal systems.

      Weaknesses:

      There could be a stronger connection between the connectivity part of the data - showing that POm neurons context D1, D2, and PV neurons in the striatum but with some different properties - and the functional side of the project. One wonders whether the POm neurons projecting to these subtypes or striatal neurons have unique signaling properties related to learning, or if there is a uniform, bulk signal sent to the striatum. This is not a weakness per se, as it's reasonable for these questions to be answered in future papers.

      We are very interested to understand the potentially distinct learning-related synaptic and circuit changes that potentially occur at the POm synapses with D1- and D2-SPNs and PV interneurons, and other striatal cell types. We agree that this would be an important topic for further investigation.

      All the in vivo activity-related conclusions stem from data from just 5 mice, which is a relatively small sample set. Optogenetic groups are also on the small side.

      We appreciate this point and agree that higher N can be important for observing robust effects. A factor of our experiments that helped reduce the number of animals used was the longitudinal design, with repeated measures in the same subjects. This allowed for the internal control of comparing learning effects in the same subject from naïve to expert stages and therefore increased robustness. Even with relatively small group sizes, results were statistically significant, suggesting that the use of more mice was unnecessary, which we considered consistent with best practice in the use of animals in research. We also note that our group sizes were consistent with other studies in the field.  

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Yonk and colleagues investigate the role of the thalamostriatal pathway. Specifically, they studied the interaction of the posterior thalamic nucleus (PO) and the dorsolateral striatum in the mouse. First, they characterize connectivity by recording DLS neurons in in-vitro slices and optogenetically activating PO terminals. PO is observed to establish depressing synapses onto D1 and D2 spiny neurons as well as PV neurons. Second, the image PO axons are imaged by fiber photometry in mice trained to discriminate textures. Initially, no trial-locked activity is observed, but as the mice learn PO develops responses timed to the audio cue that marks the start of the trial and precedes touch. PO does appear to encode the tactile stimulus type or outcome. Optogenetic suppression of PO terminals in striatum slow task acquisition. The authors conclude that PO provides a "behaviorally relevant arousal-related signal" and that this signal "primes" striatal circuitry for sensory processing.

      A great strength of this paper is its timeliness. Thalamostriatal processing has received almost no attention in the past, and the field has become very interested in the possible functions of PO. Additionally, the experiments exploit multiple cutting-edge techniques.

      There seem to be some technical/analytical weaknesses. The in vitro experiments appear to have some contamination of nearby thalamic nuclei by the virus delivering the opsin, which could change the interpretation. Some of the statistical analyses of these data also appear inappropriate. The correlative analysis of Pom activity in vivo, licking, and pupil could be more convincingly done.

      The bigger weakness is conceptual - why should striatal circuitry need "priming" by the thalamus in order to process sensory stimuli? Why would such circuitry even be necessary? Why is a sensory signal from the cortex insufficient? Why should the animal more slowly learn the task? How does this fit with existing ideas of striatal plasticity? It is unclear from the experiments that the thalamostriatal pathway exists for priming sensory processing. In fact, the optogenetic suppression of the thalamostriatal pathway seems to speak against that idea.

      We thank the reviewer for these constructive comments. The points are addressed below.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Do POm neurons innervate CINs also? The connection between the PF thalamus and CINs is mentioned in a couple of places - one question is how unique are the input patterns for the POm versus adjacent sensorimotor thalamic regions, including the PF? This isn't a weakness per se but knowing the answer to that question would help in forming a more complete picture of how these different thalamostriatal circuits do or do not contribute uniquely to learning and action selection.

      Anatomical tracing evidence from Klug et al. (2018), which mapped brain-wide inputs to striatal cholinergic (ChAT) interneurons, suggests that Pf provides the majority of thalamic innervation of striatal ChAT neurons compared to other thalamic nuclei. Many other thalamic nuclei, including POm, showed very little or no labeling, suggesting weak innervation of ChAT interneurons. However, it is possible that these thalamic nuclei, including POm, do provide functional innervation of ChAT interneurons that is not sufficiently assessed by anatomical tracing.

      Another difference between Pf and other thalamic nuclei (likely including POm) comes from anatomical tracing evidence (Smith et al., 2014; PMID: 24523677) which indicates that Pf inputs form the majority of their synapses onto dendritic shafts of SPNs, while other thalamic nuclei form synapses onto dendritic spines. Understanding the innervation patterns of POm-striatal projections beyond the three cell types we have studied here, including ChAT neurons and subcellular localization, would be an important area of further study.

      It would be useful to know to what extent these POm-striatum neurons are activated generally during movement, versus this discrimination task specifically.

      We agree that distinguishing general movement-related activity from task-specific activity would be very useful. Earlier work (Petty et al., 2021) showed a close relationship between POm neuron activity, spontaneous (task-free) whisker movements, and pupil-indexed arousal in head-restrained mice. Oram et al. (2024; PMID: 39003286) recently recorded VPM and POm in freely moving mice during natural movements, finding that activity of both nuclei correlated with head and whisker movements. These studies indicate that POm is generally coactive with exploratory head and whisker movements.

      During task performance, the situation may change with training and attentional effects. For example, Petty and Bruno (2024) (https://elifesciences.org/reviewed-preprints/97188) showed that POm activity correlates more closely with task demands than tactile or visual stimulus modality. Our data indicate that POm axonal signals are increased at trial start during anticipation of tactile stimulus delivery and through the sensory discrimination period, then decrease to baseline levels during licking and water reward collection (Fig. 3). Results of Petty and Bruno (2024) together with ours suggest that POm is particularly active during the context of behaviorally relevant task performance. Thus, we think it is likely that, while pupil dilation indexes general movement and arousal, POm activity is more specific to movement and arousal associated with task engagement and behavioral performance. We have strengthened this point in the Discussion.

      Many of the data panels and text for legends/axes are quite small, and the stroke on line art is quite faint - overall figures could be improved from a readability standpoint.

      We thank the reviewer for their careful attention to the figures. 

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major

      (1) Page 4, the Results regarding PSP and distance from injection site. The r-squared is the wrong thing to look at to test for a relationship. One should look at the p-value on the coefficient corresponding to the slope. The p-value is probably significant given the figures, in which case there may be a relationship contrary to what is stated. All the low r-squared value says is that, if there is a relationship, it does not explain a lot of the PSP variability.

      We thank the reviewer for alerting us this oversight. We have included the p value (p = 0.0293) in the figure and legend, and indicated that the relationship is “small but significant”.

      (2) Figure 1B suggests that the virus injections extend beyond POm and into other thalamic structures. Do any of the results change if the injections contaminating other nuclei are excluded from the analysis? I am not suggesting the authors change the figures/analyses. I am simply suggesting they double-check.

      We selected for injections that were predominantly expressing in POm as determined by post-hoc histological analysis (see Fig. 1, right). As above, we think that axons of passage that do not form striatal synapses are less likely to be suppressed than axons with terminals; however, this would need to be determined in further experiments. Because the preponderance of expression is within POm, we think the results would be similar even with a stricter selection criterion. 

      (3) The authors conclude that POm and licking are not correlated (bottom of page 6 pertaining to Figures 3A-F). The danger of these analyses is that they assume that GCaMP8 is a perfect linear reporter of POm spikes. The reliability of GCaMP8 has been quantified in some cell types, but not thalamic neurons, which have relatively higher firing rates.

      The reviewer is correct that the relationship between GCaMP8 fluorescence changes and spiking has not been sufficiently characterized in thalamic neurons, and that this would be important to do.

      What if the indicator is simply saturated late into the trial (after the average reaction time)? It would look like there is no response and one would conclude no correlation, but there could be a very strong correlation.

      While saturation is worthy of concern, the signal dynamics here argue against this possibility. The reason is that the signal increased in the early part of the trial and decreased by the end. If saturation was an issue, this would have been apparent during the initial increase. When the signal decreased in amplitude at the end of the trial, this indicates that the signal is not saturated because it is returning from a point closer to its maximum (and is becoming less saturated).

      Also, what happens between trials? Are the correlations the same, stronger, weaker? Ideally, the authors would analyze the data during and between trials.

      Between trials the signal did not show further changes in baseline beyond what was displayed at the start and end of behavioral trials. There were no consistent increases or decreases in signals between trials, except perhaps during strong whisking bouts. This is anecdotal because we did not analyze between-trial data. However, it is interesting and important to note that signals increased dramatically in amplitude from naïve, early learning to expert behavioral performance (Fig. 3), highlighting that POm-axonal signals relate to behavioral engagement and performance rather than spontaneous behaviors.  

      (4) Axonal activity could also appear more correlated with the pupil than licking because pupil dynamics are slow like the dynamics of calcium indicators. These kernels could artificially inflate the correlation. Ideally, the authors could consider these temporal effects. Perhaps they could deconvolve the temporal profiles of calcium and pupil before correlating? Or equivalently incorporate the profiles into their analysis?

      We analyzed the lick probability histograms, which had a temporal profile similar to the calcium signals (Fig. 3D,E), ruling out concerns about effects of temporal effects on correlations. It is also worth noting that we observed changes in correlations between calcium signals and pupil with learning stage (Fig. 3I), even though the temporal profiles (signal dynamics) are not changing. Thus, temporal effects of the signals themselves are not the driver of correlations, but rather the changes in relative timing between calcium signals and pupil, as occur with learning.

      (5) The authors conclude that PO provides a "behaviorally relevant arousal-related signal" and that this signal "primes" striatal circuitry for sensory processing. The data here support the first part. It is not clear that the data support the second part, largely because it is vague what "priming" of sensory processing or "a key role in the initial stages of action selection (p.9) even means here. Why would such circuitry even be necessary? Why is a sensory signal from the cortex insufficient? Why should the animal more slowly learn the task? How does this fit with existing ideas of striatal plasticity? Some conceptual proposals from the authors, even if speculative and not offered as a conclusion, would be helpful.

      We appreciate these good points and have added further consideration and revision of the concept of priming and potential roles in an extensively revised Discussion section.

      (6) The photometry shows that PO turns on about 2 seconds before the texture presentation. PO's activity seems locked to the auditory cue, not the texture (Figure 2). This means that the attempt to suppress the thalamostriatal pathway with JAWS (Figure 4) is rather late, isn't it? Some PO signals surely go through. This seems to contradict the idea of priming above. It would be good if the authors could factor this into their narrative. Perhaps labelling the time of the auditory cue in Figure 4C would also be helpful.

      The start of texture presentation (movement of the texture panel toward the mouse) and auditory cue occur at the same time. To clarify this, we added a label “start tone” in Figure 4C and also in Figure 2C.

      For optogenetic (JAWS) suppression, we intentionally chose a time window between start tone onset and texture presentation, because our photometry experiments showed that this was when the preponderance of the signal occurred. However, the reviewer is correct that our chosen optogenetic suppression (JAWS) onset occurs shortly after the photometry signal has already started, potentially leaving the early photometry signal un-suppressed. Our motivation for choosing a restricted time window surrounding the texture presentation time was 1) to minimize illumination and potential heating of brain tissue; 2) to target a time window that avoids the auditory cue but covers stimulus presentation. We did not want to extend the duration of the suppression to before the trial started, because this could produce task-non-specific effects, such as distraction or loss of attention before the start of the trial.

      Even if some signal were getting through before suppression, we don’t think this contradicts the possibility of ‘priming’, because the process underlying priming would still be disrupted even if not totally suppressed. This would alter the temporal relationship between POm-striatal inputs and further corticostriatal inputs (from S1 and M1 cortex, for example). We have included further consideration of these points and possible relation to the priming concept in the Discussion.

      Minor

      (1) Page 5, "the sensitivity metric is artificially increased". What do you mean "artificially"? The mice are discriminating better. It is true that either a change in HR or FAR can cause the sensitivity metric to change, but there is nothing artificial or misleading about this.

      We removed the word artificial and clarified our definition of behaviorally Expert in this context:

      “Mice were considered Expert once they had reached ≥ 0.80 Hit Rate and ≤ 0.30 FA Rate for two consecutive sessions in lieu of a strict sensitivity (d’) threshold; we found this definition more intuitive because d’ is enhanced as Hit Rate and FA Rate approach their extremes (0 or 1)”

      (2) Page 7, "Upon segmentation (Figure S4G-J)". Do you mean "segregation by trial outcome"?

      Corrected.

      (3) Page 9, "POm projections may have discrete target-specific functions, such that POm-striatal inputs may play a distinct role in sensorimotor behavior compared to POm-cortical inputs". Would POm-cortical inputs not also be sensorimotor? The somatosensory cortex contains a lot of corticostriatal cells. It also has various direct and indirect links to the motor cortex as well.

      We have clarified the wording here to convey the possibility that POm signals could be received and processed differently by striatal versus cortical circuitry, and have moved this statement to later in the discussion for better elaboration.

      (4) The Methods state that male and female mice were used. Why not say how many of each and whether or not there are any sex-specific differences?

      We added the following information to the Methods:

      The number of male and female mice were as follows, by experiment type: 6 male, 4 female (electrophysiology); 3 male, 2 female (fiber photometry); 4 male, 5 female (optogenetics). Data were not analyzed for sex differences.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this series of studies, Locantore et al. investigated the role of SST-expressing neurons in the entopeduncular nucleus (EPNSst+) in probabilistic switching tasks, a paradigm that requires continued learning to guide future actions. In prior work, this group had demonstrated EPNSst+ neurons co-release both glutamate and GABA and project to the lateral habenula (LHb), and LHb activity is also necessary for outcome evaluation necessary for performance in probabilistic decision-making tasks. Previous slice physiology works have shown that the balance of glutamate/GABA co-release is plastic, altering the net effect of EPN on downstream brain areas and neural circuit function. The authors used a combination of in vivo calcium monitoring with fiber photometry and computational modeling to demonstrate that EPNSst+ neural activity represents movement, choice direction, and reward outcomes in their behavioral task. However, viral-genetic manipulations to synaptically silence these neurons or selectively eliminate glutamate release had no effect on behavioral performance in well-trained animals. The authors conclude that despite their representation of task variables, EPN Sst+ neuron synaptic output is dispensable for task performance.

      Strengths and Weaknesses:

      Overall, the manuscript is exceptionally scholarly, with a clear articulation of the scientific question and a discussion of the findings and their limitations. The analyses and interpretations are careful and rigorous. This review appreciates the thorough explanation of the behavioral modeling and GLM for deconvolving the photometry signal around behavioral events, and the transparency and thoroughness of the analyses in the supplemental figures. This extra care has the result of increasing the accessibility for non-experts, and bolsters confidence in the results.

      (1) To bolster a reader's understanding of results, we suggest it would be interesting to see the same mouse represented across panels (i.e. Figures 1 F-J, Supplementary Figures 1 F, K, etc i.e via the inclusion of faint hash lines connecting individual data points across variables.

      Thank you for the suggestion. The same mouse is now represented in Fig 1 and Fig 1—Figure Supplement 1 as a darkened circle so it can be followed across different panels. Photometry from this mouse was used as sample date in Figure 2b and Figure 2—figure supplement 1a-b.

      (2) Additionally, Figure 3E demonstrates that eliminating the 'reward' and 'choice and reward' terms from the GLM significantly worsens model performance; to demonstrate the magnitude of this effect, it would be interesting to include a reconstruction of the photometry signal after holding out of both or one of these terms, alongside the 'original' and 'reconstructed' photometry traces in panel D. This would help give context for how the model performance degrades by exclusion of those key terms.

      We have now added analyses and reconstructed photometry signals from GLMs excluding important predictors in Figure 3—figure supplement 1 and 2. We use the model where both “Direction and reward” were omitted as predictors for the GLM and showed photometry reconstructions aligned to behavioral events used for the full model (Figure 3—figure supplement 1) and partial model (Figure 3—figure supplement 2) to compare model performance.  

      (3) Finally, the authors claimed calcium activity increased following ipsilateral movements. However, Figure 3C clearly shows that both SXcontra and SXipsi increase beta coefficients. Instead, the choice direction may be represented in these neurons, given that beta coefficients increase following CXipsi and before SEipsi, presumably when animals make executive decisions. Could the authors clarify their interpretation on this point?

      We observe that calcium activity increases during ipsilateral choices as the animal moves toward the ipsilateral side port (e.g. CX<sub>ipsi</sub> to SE<sub>ipsi</sub>; Fig 2C and Fig 3C). The animal also makes other ipsiversive movements not during the “choice” phase of a trial such as when it is returning to the center port following a contralateral choice (e.g. SX<sub>Contra</sub> to CE; Fig 2—figure supplement 1F and Fig 3C). We also observe an increase in calcium activity during these ipsiversive movements (e.g. SX<sub>Contra</sub> to CE), but they are not as large as those observed during the choice phase (Fig 2—figure supplement 1G). Therefore, during the choice phase of a trial, activity contains signals related to ipsilateral movement and additional factors (e.g. executive decision making).    

      (4) Also, it is not clear if there is a photometry response related to motor parameters (i.e. head direction or locomotion, licking), which could change the interpretation of the reward outcome if it is related to a motor response; could the authors show photometry signal from representative 'high licking' or 'low licking' reward trials, or from spontaneous periods of high vs. low locomotor speeds (if the sessions are recorded) to otherwise clarify this point?

      Unfortunately, neither licks nor locomotion were recorded during the behavioral sessions when photometry was recorded. In Figure 2—figure supplement 1a we now show individual trials sorted by trial duration (time elapsed between CE and SE) to illustrate the dynamics of the photometry signal on fast vs slow trials within a session.  

      (5) There are a few limitations with the design and timing of the synaptic manipulations that would improve the manuscript if discussed or clarified. The authors take care to validate the intersectional genetic strategies: Tetanus Toxin virus (which eliminates synaptic vesicle fusion) or CRISPR editing of Slc17a6, which prevents glutamate loading into synaptic vesicles. The magnitude of effect in the slice physiology results is striking. However, this relies on the co-infection of a second AAV to express channelrhodopsin for the purposes of validation, and it is surely the case that there will not be 100% overlap between the proportion of cells infected.

      For the Tet-tox experiments in Figure 4 we estimate approximately 70±15% of EP<sup>Sst+</sup> neurons expressed Tet-tox based on our histological counts and published stereological counts in EP (Miyamoto and Fukuda, 2015). It is true that channelrhodopsin expression will not overlap 100% with cells infected by the other virus, indeed our in vitro synaptic physiology shows small residual postsynaptic currents following optogenetic stimulation either from incomplete blockade of synaptic release or neurons that expressed channelrhodopsin but not Tettx (Figure 4—figure supplement 1J-K). The same is shown for CRISPR mediated deletion of Slc17a6 (Fig 5 – Fig supplement 1J-K).  

      (6) Alternative means of glutamate packaging (other VGluT isoforms, other transporters, etc) could also compensate for the partial absence of VGluT2, which should be discussed.

      While single cell sequencing (Wallace et al, 2017) has shown EP<sup>Sst+</sup> neurons do not express Slc17a7/8 (vGlut1 or vGlut3) it is possible that these genes could be upregulated following CRISPR mediated deletion of Slc17a6, however we do not see evidence of this with our in vitro synaptic physiology (EPSCs are significant suppressed, Figure 5 – Fig supplement 1J-K) and therefore can conclude it is highly unlikely to occur to a significant degree in our experiments. This is now included in the Discussion.

      (7) The authors do not perform a complimentary experiment to delete GABA release (i.e. via VGAT editing), which is understandable, given the absence of an effect with the pan-synaptic manipulation. A more significant concern is the timing of these manipulations as the authors acknowledge. The manipulations are all done in well-trained animals, who continue to perform during the length of viral expression. Moreover, after carefully showing that mice use different strategies on the 70/30 version vs the 90/10 version of the task, only performance on the 90/10 version is assessed after the manipulation. Together, the observation that EPNsst activity does not alter performance on a well-learned, 90/10 switching task decreases the impact of the findings, as this population may play a larger role during task acquisition or under more dynamic task conditions. Additional experiments could be done to strengthen the current evidence, although the limitation is transparently discussed by the authors.

      As mentioned above, it is possible that a requirement for EP<sup>Sst+</sup> neurons could be revealed if the experiment was conducted with different parameters (either different reward probabilities, fluctuating reward probabilities within a session, or withholding additional training during viral expression). It is difficult to predict which version of the task, if any, would be most likely to reveal a requirement for EP<sup>Sst+</sup> neurons based on our results. We favor testing for EP<sup>Sst+</sup> function using a new behavioral paradigm that allows us to carefully examine task learning following EP manipulations in an independent study.

      (8) Finally, intersectional strategies target LHb-projecting neurons, although in the original characterization, it is not entirely clear that the LHb is the only projection target of EPNsst neurons. A projection map would help clarify this point.

      In a previous study we confirmed that EP<sup>Sst+</sup> neurons project exclusively to the LHb using cell-type specific rabies infection and examining all reported downstream regions for axon collaterals (Wallace et al 2017, Suppl. Fig 6F-G). When EP<sup>Sst+</sup> neurons were labeled we did not observe axon collaterals in known targets of EP such as ventro-antero lateral thalamus, red nucleus, parafasicular nucleus of the thalamus, or the pedunculopontine tegmental nucleus, only in the LHb. Additionally, using single cell tracing techniques, others have shown EP neurons that exclusively project to the LHb (Parent et al, 2001).

      Overall, the authors used a pertinent experimental paradigm and common cell-specific approaches to address a major gap in the field, which is the functional role of glutamate/GABA co-release from the major basal ganglia output nucleus in action selection and evaluation. The study is carefully conducted, their analyses are thorough, and the data are often convincing and thought-provoking. However, the limitations of their synaptic manipulations with respect to the behavioral assays reduce generalizability and to some extent the impact of their findings.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper aimed to determine the role EP sst+ neurons play in a probabilistic switching task.

      Strengths:

      The in vivo recording of the EP sst+ neuron activity in the task is one of the strongest parts of this paper. Previous work had recorded from the EP-LHb population in rodents and primates in head-fixed configurations, the recordings of this population in a freely moving context is a valuable addition to these studies and has highlighted more clearly that these neurons respond both at the time of choice and outcome.

      The use of a refined intersectional technique to record specifically the EP sst+ neurons is also an important strength of the paper. This is because previous work has shown that there are two genetically different types of glutamatergic EP neurons that project to the LHb. Previous work had not distinguished between these types in their recordings so the current results showing that the bidirectional value signaling is present in the EP sst+ population is valuable.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) One of the main weaknesses of the paper is to do with how the effect of the EP sst+ neurons on the behavior was assessed.

      (a) All the manipulations (blocking synaptic release and blocking glutamatergic transmission) are chronic and more importantly the mice are given weeks of training after the manipulation before the behavioral effect is assessed. This means that as the authors point out in their discussion the mice will have time to adjust to the behavioral manipulation and compensate for the manipulations. The results do show that mice can adapt to these chronic manipulations and that the EP sst+ are not required to perform the task. What is unclear is whether the mice have compensated for the loss of EP sst+ neurons and whether they play a role in the task under normal conditions. Acute manipulations or chronic manipulations without additional training would be needed to assess this.

      Unfortunately, when mice are given a three week break from behavioral training (the time required to allow for adequate viral expression) behavioral performance on the task (p(highport), p(switch), trial number, trial time, etc.) is significantly degraded. Animals do eventually recover to previous performance levels, but this takes place during a 4-5 day “relearning” period. Here we sought to examine if EP<sup>Sst+</sup> neurons are required for continued task performance and chose to continue to train the animals following viral injection to avoid the “relearning” period that occurs following an extended break from behavioral training which may have made it difficult to interpret changes in behavioral performance due to the viral manipulation vs relearning.  

      Acute manipulations were not used because we planned to compare complete synaptic ablation (Tettx) and single neurotransmitter ablation (CRISPR Slc17a6) over similar time courses and we know of no acute manipulation that could achieve single neurotransmitter ablation. 

      (b) Another weakness is that the effect of the manipulations was assessed in the 90/10 contingency version of the task. Under these contingencies, mice integrate past outcomes over fewer trials to determine their choice and animals act closer to a simple win-stay-lose switch strategy. Due to this, it is unclear if the EP sst+ neurons would play a role in the task when they must integrate over a larger number of conditions in the less deterministic 70/30 version of the task.

      It is possible that a requirement for EP<sup>Sst+</sup> neurons could be revealed if the experiment was conducted with different parameters (either different reward probabilities, fluctuating reward probabilities within a session, or withholding additional training during viral expression). It is difficult to predict which version of the task, if any, would be most likely to reveal a requirement for EP<sup>Sst+</sup> neurons based on our results. We favor testing for EP<sup>Sst+</sup> function using a new behavioral paradigm that allows us to carefully examine task learning following EP manipulations in an independent study.

      The authors show an intriguing result that the EP sst+ neurons are excited when mice make an ipsilateral movement in the task either toward or away from the center port. This is referred to as a choice response, but it could be a movement response or related to the predicted value of a specific action. Recordings while mice perform movement outside the task or well-controlled value manipulations within the session would be needed to really refine what these responses are related to.

      If activity of EP<sup>Sst+</sup> neurons included a predicted value component, we would expect to see a change in activity during ipsilateral movements when the previous trial was rewarded vs unrewarded. This is examined in Fig 2—figure suppl. 2C, where we compare EP<sup>Sst+</sup> responses during ipsilateral trials when the previous trials were either rewarded (blue) or unrewarded (gray). We show that EP<sup>Sst+</sup> activity prior to side port entry (SE) is identical in these two trial types indicating that EP<sup>Sst+</sup> neurons do not show evidence of predicted value of an action in this context. Therefore, we conclude that increased EP<sup>Sst+</sup> activity during ipsilateral trials is primarily related to ipsilateral movement following CX (we call this the “choice” phase of the trial). We also show that other ipsiversive movements outside of the “choice” phase of a trial (such as the return to center port following a contralateral trial) show a smaller but significant increase in activity (Figure 2—figure supplement 1F-G). Therefore, whereas the activity observed during ipsilateral choice contains signals related to ipsilateral movement and additional factors, our data suggest that predicted value is not one of those factors. We will clarify this point and our definition of “choice” in the narrative.  

      (2) The authors conclude that they do not see any evidence for bidirectional prediction errors. It is not possible to conclude this. First, they see a large response in the EP sst+ neurons to the omission of an expected reward. This is what would be expected of a negative reward prediction error. There are much more specific well-controlled tests for this that are commonplace in head-fixed and freely moving paradigms that could be tested to probe this. The authors do look at the effect of previous trials on the response and do not see strong consistent results, but this is not a strong formal test of what would be expected of a prediction error, either a positive or negative. The other way they assess this is by looking at the size of the responses in different recording sessions with different reward contingencies. They claim that the size of the reward expectation and prediction error should scale with the different reward probabilities. If all the reward probabilities were present in the same session this should be true as lots of others have shown for RPE. Because however this data was taken from different sessions it is not expected that the responses should scale, this is because reward prediction errors have been shown to adaptively scale to cover the range of values on offer (Tobler et al., Science 2005). A better test of positive prediction error would be to give a larger-than-expected reward on a subset of trials. Either way, there is already evidence that responses reflect a negative prediction error in their data and more specific tests would be needed to formally rule in or out prediction error coding especially as previous recordings have shown it is present in previous primate and rodent recordings.

      We do not conclude that we see no evidence for RPE and the reviewer is correct in stating that a large increase in EP<sup>Sst+</sup> activity following omission of an expected reward would be expected of a negative reward prediction error. However, this observation alone is not strong enough evidence that EP<sup>Sst+</sup> neurons signal RPE. When we looked for additional evidence of RPE within our experiments we did not find consistent demonstrations of its existence in our data. When performing photometry measurements of dopamine release in the striatum, RPE signals are readily observed with a task identical to ours using trial history to as a modifier of reward prediction (Chantranupong, et al 2023). Of course, there could be a weaker more heterogeneous RPE signal in EP<sup>Sst+</sup> neurons that we cannot detect with our methods. As we state in the discussion, RPE signals may be present in a subset of individual neurons (as observed in Stephenson-Jones et al, 2016 and Hong and Hikosaka, 2008) which are below our detection threshold using fiber photometry. Additionally, Hong and Hikosaka, 2008 show that LHb-projecting GPi neurons show both positive and negative reward modulations which may obscure observation of RPE signals with photometry recordings that arise from population activity of genetically defined neurons.   

      (3) There are a lot of variables in the GLM that occur extremely close in time such as the entry and exit of a port. If two variables occur closely in time and are always correlated it will be difficult if not impossible for a regression model to assign weights accurately to each event. This is not a large issue, but it is misleading to have regression kernels for port entry and exits unless the authors can show these are separable due to behavioral jitter or a lack of correlation under specific conditions, which does not seem to be the case.

      It is true that two variables that are always correlated are redundant in a GLM. For example, center entry (CE) and center exit (CX) occur in quick succession in most trials and are highly correlated (Figure 1C). For this reason, when only one is removed as a predictor from the model but not the other there is a very small change in the MSE of the fit (Figure 3E, -CE or -CX). However, when both are removed model performance decreases further indicating that center-port nose-pokes do contribute to model performance (Figure 3E, -CE/CX). Due to the presence/absence of reward following side port entry there is substantial behavioral jitter (due to water consumption in rewarded trials) that the SE and SX are not always correlated, therefore the model performs worse when either are omitted alone, but even worse still when both SE/SX are omitted together (Figure 3E, -SE/SX). We will update Figure 3 and the narrative to make this more explicit.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors find that Sst-EPN neurons, which project to the lateral habenula, encode information about response directionality (left vs right) and outcome (rewarded vs unrewarded). Surprisingly, impairment of vesicular signaling in these neurons onto their LHb targets did not impair probabilistic choice behavior.

      Strengths:

      Strengths of the current work include extremely detailed and thorough analysis of data at all levels, not only of the physiological data but also an uncommonly thorough analysis of behavioral response patterns.

      Weaknesses:

      Overall, I saw very few weaknesses, with only two issues, both of which should be possible to address without new experiments:

      (1) The authors note that the neural response difference between rewarded and unrewarded trials is not an RPE, as it is not affected by reward probability. However, the authors also show the neural difference is partly driven by the rapid motoric withdrawal from the port. Since there is also a response component that remains different apart from this motoric difference (Figure 2, Supplementary Figure 1E), it seems this is what needs to be analyzed with respect to reward probability, to truly determine whether there is no RPE component. Was this done?

      We thank the reviewer for this comment, we believe this is particularly important for unrewarded trials as SE and SX occur in rapid succession. In Figure 2—figure supplement 2A-B we now show the photometry signal from Rewarded and Unrewarded ipsilateral trials aligned to SX for different reward probabilities. We quantify the signals for different reward probabilities during a 500ms window immediately prior to SX but find no differences between groups.  

      (2) The current study reaches very different conclusions than a 2016 study by Stephenson-Jones and colleagues despite using a similar behavioral task to study the same Sst-EPN-LHb circuit. This is potentially very interesting, and the new findings likely shed important light on how this circuit really works. Hence, I would have liked to hear more of the authors' thoughts about possible explanations of the differences. I acknowledge that a full answer might not be possible, but in-depth elaboration would help the reader put the current findings in the context of the earlier work, and give a better sense of what work still needs to be done in the future to fully understand this circuit.

      For example, the authors suggest that the Sst-EPN-LHb circuit might be involved in initial learning, but play less of a role in well-trained animals, thereby explaining the lack of observed behavioral effect. However, it is my understanding that the probabilistic switching task forces animals to continually update learned contingencies, rendering this explanation somewhat less persuasive, at least not without further elaboration (e.g. maybe the authors think it plays a role before the animals learn to switch?).

      Also, as I understand it, the 2016 study used manipulations that likely impaired phasic activity patterns, e.g. precisely timed optogenetic activation/inhibition, and/or deletion of GABA/glutamate receptors. In contrast, the current study's manipulations - blockade of vesicle release using tetanus toxin or deletion of VGlut2, would likely have blocked both phasic and tonic activity patterns. Do the authors think this factor, or any others they are aware of, could be relevant?

      We have added further discussion of the Stephenson-Jones, et al 2016 study as well as the Lazaridis, et al 2019 study which shows no effect of phasic stimulation of EP when specifically manipulating EP<sup>Sst+</sup> (vGat+/vGlut2+) neurons rather than vGlut2+ neurons as in the Stephenson-Jones study.  

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In some places, there seems to be a mismatch between referenced figures and texts. For example:

      (1) The authors described that 'This increase in activity was seen for all three reward probabilities tested (90/10, 80/20, and 70/30) and occurred while the animal was engaged in ipsiversive movements as similar increases were observed following side exit (SX) on contralateral trials as the animal was moving from the contralateral side port back to the center port (Figure 2-Figure Supplement 1c)', but supplement 1c is not about calcium dynamics around the SX event. I presume they mean Figure 2-Figure Supplement 1d.

      Yes, this will be corrected in the revised manuscript.

      (2) The authors explained that increased EPSst+ neuronal activity following an unrewarded outcome was partially due to the rapid withdrawal of the animal's snout following an unrewarded outcome however, differences in rewarded and unrewarded trials were still distinguishable when signals were aligned to side port exit indicating that these increases in EPSst+ neuronal activity on unrewarded trials were a combination of outcome evaluation (unrewarded) and side port withdrawal occurring in quick succession (SX, Figure 2 - Figure Supplement 1d). I presume that they mean Figure 2 - Figure Supplement 1e.

      Yes, this will be corrected in the revised manuscript.

      Minor suggestions related to specific figure presentation are below:

      Figure 2 and supplement figures:

      (1) Figure 2B: the authors may consider presenting outcome-related signals recorded from all trials, including both ipsilateral and contralateral events, and align signals to SE when reward consumption presumably begins, rather than aligning to CE.

      We have added sample recordings from ipsilateral and contralateral trials and sorted them by trial duration to allow for clearer presentation of activity following CE and SE (Figure 2—figure supplement 1a-b).

      (2) The authors described that 'This increase in activity was seen for all three reward probabilities tested (90/10, 80/20, and 70/30) and occurred while the animal was engaged in ipsiversive movements as similar increases were observed following side exit (SX) on contralateral trials as the animal was moving from the contralateral side port back to the center port (Figure 2-Figure Supplement 1c)', but supplement 1c is not about calcium dynamics around the SX event. I presume they mean Figure 2-Figure Supplement 1d.

      Yes, this will be corrected in the revised manuscript.

      (3) The authors explained that increased EPSst+ neuronal activity following an unrewarded outcome was partially due to the rapid withdrawal of the animal's snout following an unrewarded outcome however, differences in rewarded and unrewarded trials were still distinguishable when signals were aligned to side port exit indicating that these increases in EPSst+ neuronal activity on unrewarded trials were a combination of outcome evaluation (unrewarded) and side port withdrawal occurring in quick succession (SX, Figure 2 -Figure Supplement 1d). I presume that they mean Figure 2 -Figure Supplement 1e.

      Yes, this will be corrected in the revised manuscript.

      Figure 3 and supplement figures:

      (1) Figure 3C-F: it is hard to compare the amplitude of calcium signals between different behaviour events without a uniform y-axis.

      The scale for the y-axis on Figure 3C-D is uniform for all panels. Figure 3E is also uniform for all boxplots. The reviewer may be referring to Figure 2C-F, but the y-axis for all of the photometry data is uniform for all panels and the horizontal line represents zero. The y-axis for the quantification on the right of each panel is scaled to the max/min for each comparison.

      (2) Figure 3E is difficult to follow. The authors explained that the 'SE' variable is generated by collapsing the ipsilateral and contralateral port entries, and hence the variable has no choice of direction information. I assumed that the 'SX', 'CE', and 'CX' variables are generated similarly. It is not clear if this is the case for the 'side', 'centre' and 'choice' variables. The authors explained that 'omitting center port entry/exit together or individually also resulted in decreased GLM performance but to a smaller degree than the omission of choice direction (Figure 3e, "-Center")'. My understanding is that they created the Centre variable by collapsing ipsilateral and contralateral centre port entry/exit together. The Centre variable should have no choice of direction information. How is the Center variable generated differently from omitting centre port entry/exit together? I would ask the authors to explain the model and different variables a bit more thoroughly in the text.

      We apologize for the confusion. All ten variables used to train the full GLM are listed in Fig. 3C. In Figure 3E variable(s) were omitted to test how they contributed to GLM performance (data labeled “None” is the full model with all variables). Omitted variables are now defined as follows: -Rew = Rew+Unrew removed, -Direction = Ipsi/Contra designation removed and collapsed into CE, CX, SE, SX, -Direction & Rew = Ipsi/Contra info removed from all variables + Rew/Unrew removed, -CE/CX = Ipsi/Contra CE and CX removed, -CE = Ipsi/contra CE removed, -CX = Ipsi/contra CX removed, -SE/SX = Ipsi/Contra SE and SX removed, -SE = Ipsi/contra SE removed, -SX = Ipsi/contra SX removed. This clarification has also been added to the Generalized Linear Model section of Materials and Methods.

      Figure 5 and supplement figures:

      There are no representative and summary figures show the specificity and efficiency of oChief-tdTomato or Tetx-GFP expression. Body weight changes following virus injection are not well described.

      A representative image of Tettx GFP expression are shown in Fig. 4A and percent of infected EP<sup>Sst+</sup> neurons is described in the text (70±15.1% (mean±SD), 1070±230 neurons/animal, n=6 mice). Most oChief-tdTom animals were used for post-hoc electrophysiology experiments and careful quantification of viral expression was not possible. However, Slc17a6 deletion was confirmed in these animals (Fig. 5 – Fig supplement 1J-K) to confirm the manipulation was effective in the experimental group. A representative image of oChief-tdTom expression is shown in Fig. 5A.

      We now mention the body weight changes observed following Tettx injection in the narrative.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) In the RFLR section you state that "this variable decays...", a variable can't decay only the value of a variable can change. Also, it is not mentioned what variable is being discussed. There are lots of variables in the model so this should be made clear.

      We now state, “This variable (β) changes over trials and is updated with new evidence from each new trial’s choice and outcome with an additional bias towards or away from its most recent choice (Figure 1-figure supplement 2A-C).”

      (2) I couldn't find in the results section, or the methods section the details for the Tet tx experiments, were mice trained and tested on 90/10 only? Were they trained while the virus was expressing etc? This should be added.

      In the methods section we state, ”For experiments where we manipulated synaptic release in EP<sup>Sst+</sup> neurons (Figures 4-5) we trained mice (reward probabilities 90/10, no transparent barrier present) to the following criteria for the 5 days prior to virus injection: 1) p(highport) per session was greater than or equal to 0.80 with a variance less than 0.003, 2) p(switch) per session was less than or equal to 0.15 with a variance less than 0.001, 3) the p(left port) was between 0.45-0.55 with a variance less than 0.005, and 4) the animal performed at least 200 trials in a session. The mean and variance for these measurements was calculated across the five session immediately preceding surgery. The criterion were determined by comparing performance profiles in separate animals and chosen based on when animals first showed stable and plateaued behavioral performance. Following surgery, mice were allowed to recover for 3 days and then continued to train for 3 weeks during viral expression. Data collected during the 5 day pre-surgery period was then compared to data collected for 10 sessions following the 3 weeks allotted for viral expression (i.e. days 22-31 post-surgery).”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The kernel in Figure 3C shows an activation prior to CE on "contra" trials that is not apparent in Figure 2C which shows no activation prior to CE on either contra or ipsi trials. Given that movement directionality prior to CE is dictated by the choice on the PREVIOUS trial, is the "contra" condition in 3C actually based on the previous trial? If so, this should be clarified.

      On most “contra” trials the animal is making an ipsiversive movement just prior to CE as it returns to the center from the contralateral side-port (as most trials are no “switch” trials). Therefore, an increase in activity is expected and shown most clearly following SX for contralateral trials in Fig 2 –Fig suppl 1F. A significant increase in activity prior to CE on contra trials compared to ipsi trials can also be seen in Fig 2C, its just not as large a change as the increase observed following CE for ipsi. trials. The comparison between activity observed during the two types of ipsiversive movements is now shown directly in Figure 2—figure supplement 1G.

      (2) Paragraph 7 of the discussion uses a phrase "by-in-large", which probably should be "by and large".

      Thank you for the correction.

      Editor's note:

      Should you choose to revise your manuscript, if you have not already done so, please include full statistical reporting including exact p-values wherever possible alongside the summary statistics (test statistic and df) and 95% confidence intervals. These should be reported for all key questions and not only when the p-value is less than 0.05 in the main manuscript.

      Readers would also benefit from coding individual data points by sex and noting N/sex.

      Sex breakdown has been added to figure legends for each experiment, full statistical reporting is now also include in the figure legends.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Bell et. al. describes an analysis of the effects of removing one of two mutually exclusive splice exons at two distinct sites in the Drosophila CaV2 calcium channel Cacophony (Cac). The authors perform imaging and electrophysiology, along with some behavioral analysis of larval locomotion, to determine whether these alternatively spliced variants have the potential to diversify Cac function in presynaptic output at larval neuromuscular junctions. The author provided valuable insights into how alternative splicing at two sites in the calcium channel alters its function.

      Strengths:

      The authors find that both of the second alternatively spliced exons (I-IIA and I-IIB) that are found in the intracellular loop between the 1st and second set of transmembrane domains can support Cac function. However, loss of the I-IIB isoform (predicted to alter potential beta subunit interactions) results in 50% fewer channels at active zones and a decrease in neurotransmitter release and the ability to support presynaptic homeostatic potentiation. Overall, the study provides new insights into Cac diversity at two alternatively spliced sites within the protein, adding to our understanding of how regulation of presynaptic calcium channel function can be regulated by splicing.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors find that one splice isoform (IS4B) in the first S4 voltage sensor is essential for the protein's function in promoting neurotransmitter release, while the other isoform (IS4A) is dispensable. The authors conclude that IS4B is required to localize Cac channels to active zones. However, I find it more likely that IS4B is required for channel stability and leads to the protein being degraded, rather than any effect on active zone localization. More analysis would be required to establish that as the mechanism for the unique requirement for IS4B.

      (1) We thank the reviewer for this important point. In fact, all three reviewers raised the same question, and the reviewing editor pointed out that caution or additional experiments were required to distinguish between IS4 splicing being important for cac channel localization versus channel stability/degradation. We provide multiple sets of experiments as well as text and figure revisions to strengthen our claim that the IS4B exon is required for cacophony channels to enter motoneuron presynaptic boutons and localize to active zones.

      a. If IS4B was indeed required for cac channel stability (and not for localization to active zones) IS4A channels should be instable wherever they are. This is not the case because we have recorded somatodendritic cacophony currents from IS4A expressing adult motoneurons that were devoid of cac channels with the IS4B exon. Therefore, IS4A cac channels are not instable but underlie somatodendritic voltage dependent calcium currents in these motoneurons. These new data are now shown in the revised figure 3C and referred to in the text on page 7, line 42 to page 8 line 9.

      b. Similarly, if IS4B was required for channel stability, it should not be present anywhere in the nervous system. We tested this by immunohistochemistry for GFP tagged IS4A channels in the larval CNS. Although IS4A channels are sparsely expressed, which is consistent with low expression levels seen in the Western blots (Fig. 1E), there are always defined and reproducible patterns of IS4A label in the larval brain lobes as well as in the anterior part of the VNC. This again shows that the absence of IS4A from presynaptic active zones is not caused by channel instability, because the channel is expressed in other parts of the nervous system. These data are shown in the new supplementary figure 1 and referred to in the text on page 15, lines 3 to 8.

      c. As suggested in a similar context by reviewers 1 and 2, we now show enlargements of the presence of IS4B channels in presynaptic active zones as well as enlargements of the absence of IS4A channels in presynaptic active zones in the revised figures 2A-C and 3A. In these images, no IS4A label is detectable in active zones or anywhere else throughout the axon terminals, thus indicating that IS4B is required for expressing cac channels in the axon terminal boutons and localizing it to active zones. Text and figure legends have been adjusted accordingly.

      d. Related to this, reviewer 1 also recommended to quantify the IS4A and ISB4 channel intensity and co-localization with the active zone marker brp (recommendation for authors). After following the reviewers’ suggestion to adjust the background values in IS4A and IS4B immunolabels to identical (revised Figs. 2A-C), it becomes obvious that IS4A channel are not detectable above background in presynaptic terminals or active zones, thus intensity is close to zero. We still calculated the Pearsons co-localization coefficient for both IS4 variants with the active zone marker brp. For IS4B channels the Pearson’s correlation coefficient is control like, just above 0.6, whereas for IS4A channels we do not find colocalization with brp (Pearson’s below 0.25). These new analyses are now shown in the revised figure 2D and referred to on page 6, lines 33 to 38.

      e. Consistent with our finding that IS4B is required for cac channel localization to presynaptic active zones, upon removal of IS4B we find no evoked synaptic transmission (Fig. 2 in initial submission, now Fig. 3B).

      Together these data are in line with a unique requirement of IS4B at presynaptic active zones (not excluding additional functions of IS4B), whereas IS4A containing cac isoforms are not found in presynaptic active zones and mediate different functions.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      This study by Bell et al. focuses on understanding the roles of two alternatively spliced exons in the single Drosophila Cav2 gene cac. The authors generate a series of cac alleles in which one or the other mutually exclusive exons are deleted to determine the functional consequences at the neuromuscular junction. They find alternative splicing at one exon encoding part of the voltage sensor impacts the activation voltage as well as localization to the active zone. In contrast, splicing at the second exon pair does not impact Cav2 channel localization, but it appears to determine the abundance of the channel at active zones.

      Together, the authors propose that alternative splicing at the Cac locus enables diversity in Cav2 function generated through isoform diversity generated at the single Cav2 alpha subunit gene encoded in Drosophila.

      Overall this is an excellent, rigorously validated study that defines unanticipated functions for alternative splicing in Cav2 channels. The authors have generated an important toolkit of mutually exclusive Cac splice isoforms that will be of broad utility for the field, and show convincing evidence for distinct consequences of alternative splicing of this single Cav2 channel at synapses. Importantly, the authors use electrophysiology and quantitative live sptPALM imaging to determine the impacts of Cac alternative splicing on synaptic function. There are some outstanding questions regarding the mechanisms underlying the changes in Cac localization and function, and some additional suggestions are listed below for the authors to consider in strengthening this study. Nonetheless, this is a compelling investigation of alternative splicing in Cav2 channels that should be of interest to many researchers.

      (2) We believe that the additional data on cac IS4A isoform localization and function as detailed above (response to public review 1) has strengthened the manuscript and answered some of the remaining questions the reviewer refers to. We are also grateful for the specific additional reviewer suggestions which we have addressed point-by-point and refer to below (section recommendations for authors).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Bell and colleagues studied how different splice isoforms of voltage-gated CaV2 calcium channels affect channel expression, localization, function, synaptic transmission, and locomotor behavior at the larval Drosophila neuromuscular junction. They reveal that one mutually exclusive exon located in the fourth transmembrane domain encoding the voltage sensor is essential for calcium channel expression, function, active zone localization, and synaptic transmission. Furthermore, a second mutually exclusive exon residing in an intracellular loop containing the binding sites for Caβ and G-protein βγ subunits promotes the expression and synaptic localization of around ~50% of CaV2 channels, thereby contributing to ~50% of synaptic transmission. This isoform enhances release probability, as evident from increased short-term depression, is vital for homeostatic potentiation of neurotransmitter release induced by glutamate receptor impairment, and promotes locomotion. The roles of the two other tested isoforms remain less clear.

      Strengths:

      The study is based on solid data that was obtained with a diverse set of approaches. Moreover, it generated valuable transgenic flies that will facilitate future research on the role of calcium channel splice isoforms in neural function.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Based on the data shown in Figures 2A-C, and 2H, it is difficult to judge the localization of the cac isoforms. Could they analyze cac localization with regard to Brp localization (similar to Figure 3; the term "co-localization" should be avoided for confocal data), as well as cac and Brp fluorescence intensity in the different genotypes for the experiments shown in Figure 2 and 3 (Brp intensity appears lower in the dI-IIA example shown in Figure 3G)? Furthermore, heterozygous dIS4B imaging data (Figure 2C) should be quantified and compared to heterozygous cacsfGFP/+.

      According to the reviewer’s suggestion, we have quantified cac localization relative to brp localization by computing the Pearson’s correlation coefficient for controls and IS4A as well as IS4B animals. These new data are shown in the revised Fig. 2D and referred to on page 6, lines 33-38. Furthermore, we now confirm control-like Pearson’s correlation coefficients for all exon out variants except ΔIS4B and show Pearson’s correlation coefficients for all genotypes side-by-side in the revised Fig. 4D (legend has been adjusted accordingly). In addition, in response to the recommendations to authors, we now provide selective enlargements for the co-labeling of Brp and each exon out variant in the revised figures 2-4. We have also adjusted the background in Fig. 2C (ΔIS4B) to match that in Figs. 2A and B (control and ΔIS4A). This allows a fair comparison of cac intensities following excision of IS4B versus excision of IS4A and control (see also Fig 3). Together, this demonstrates the absence of IS4A label in presynaptic active zones much clearer. As suggested, we have also quantified brp puncta intensity on m6/7 across homozygous exon excision mutants and found no differences (this is now stated for IS4A/IS4B in the results text on page 6, lines 37/38 and for I-IIA/I-IIB on page 8, lines 42-44.). We did not quantify the intensity of cacophony puncta upon excision of IS4B because the label revealed no significant difference from background (which can be seen much better in the images now), but the brp intensities remained control-like even upon excision of IS4B.

      (2) They conclude that I-II splicing is not required for cac localization (p. 13). However, cac channel number is reduced in dI-IIB. Could the channels be mis-localized (e.g., in the soma/axon)? What is their definition of localization? Could cac be also mis-localized in dIS4B? Furthermore, the Western Blots indicate a prominent decrease in cac levels in dIS4B/+ and dI-IIB (Figure 1D). How do the decreased protein levels seen in both genotypes fit to a "localization" defect? Could decreased cac expression levels explain the phenotypes alone?

      We have now precisely defined what we mean by cac localization, namely the selective label of cac channels in presynaptic active zones that are defined as brp puncta, but no cac label elsewhere in the presynaptic bouton (page 6, lines 18 to 20). On the level of CLSM microscopy this corresponds to overlapping cac puncta and brp puncta, but no cac label elsewhere in the bouton. Based on the additional analysis and data sets outlined in our response 1 (see above) we conclude that excision of IS4B does not cause channel mislocalization because we find reproducible expression patterns elsewhere in the nervous system as well as somatodendritic cac current in ΔIS4B (for detail see above). Therefore, the isoforms containing the mutually exclusive IS4A exon are expressed and mediate other functions, but cannot substitute IS4B containing isoforms at the presynaptic AZ. In fact, our Western blots are in line with reduced cac expression if all isoforms that mediate evoked release are missing, again indicating that the presynapse specific cac isoforms cannot be replaced by other cac isoforms. This is also in line with the sparse expression of IS4A throughout the CNS as seen in the new supplementary figure 1 (for detail see above).

      (3) Cac-IS4B is required for Cav2 expression, active zone localization, and synaptic transmission. Similarly, loss of cac-I-IIB reduces calcium channel expression and number. Hence, the major phenotype of the tested splice isoforms is the loss of/a reduction in Cav2 channel number. What is the physiological role of these isoforms? Is the idea that channel numbers can be regulated by splicing? Is there any data from other systems relating channel number regulation to splicing (vs. transcription or post-transcriptional regulation)?

      Our data are not consistent with the idea that splicing regulates channel numbers. Rather, splicing can be used to generate channels with specific properties that match the demand at the site of expression. For the IS4 exon pair we find differences in activation voltage between IS4A and IS4B channels (revised Fig. 3C), with IS4B being required for sustained HVA current. IS4A does not localize to presynaptic active zones at the NMJ and is only sparsely expressed elsewhere in the NS (new supplementary Fig. 1). By contrast, IS4B is abundantly expressed in many neuropils. Therefore, taking out IS4B takes out the more abundant IS4 isoform. This is consistent with different expression levels for IS4 isoforms that have different functions, but we do not find evidence for splicing regulating expression levels per se.

      Similarly, the I-II mutually exclusive exon pair differs markedly in the presence or absence of G-protein βγ binding sites that play a role in acute channel regulation as well the conservation of the sequence for β-subunit binding (see page 5, lines 9-17). Channel number reduction in active zones occurs specifically if expression of the cac channels with the G<sub>βγ</sub>-binding site as well as the more conserved β-subunit binding is prohibited by excision of the I-IIB exon (see Fig. 5F). Vice versa, excision of I-IIA does not result in reduced channel numbers. This scenario is consistent with the hypothesis that conserved β-subunit binding affects channel number in the active zone (see page 17, lines 3 to 6 and lines 33-36), but we have no evidence that I-II splicing per se affects channel number.

      (4) Although not supported by statistics, and as appreciated by the authors (p. 14), there is a slight increase in PSC amplitude in dIS4A mutants (Figure 2). Similarly, PSC amplitudes appear slightly larger (Figure 3J), and cac fluorescence intensity is slightly higher (Figure 3H) in dI-IIA mutants. Furthermore, cac intensity and PSC amplitude distributions appear larger in dI-IIA mutants (Figures 3H, J), suggesting a correlation between cac levels and release. Can they exclude that IS4A and/or I-IIA negatively regulate release? I suggest increasing the sample size for Canton S to assess whether dIS4A mutant PSCs differ from controls (Figure 2E). Experiments at lower extracellular calcium may help reveal potential increases in PSC amplitude in the two genotypes (but are not required). A potential increase in PSC amplitude in either isoform would be very interesting because it would suggest that cac splicing could negatively regulate release.

      There are several possibilities to explain this, but as none of the effects is statistically significant, we prefer to not investigate this in further depth. However, given that we cannot find IS4A in presynaptic active zones (revised figures 2C and 3A plus the new enlargements 2Ci and 3Ai, revised text page 6, lines 22 to 24 and 29 to 31, and page 7, second paragraph, same as public response 1D) IS4A channels cannot have a direct negative effect on release probability. Nonetheless, given that IS4A containing cac isoforms mediate functions in other neuronal compartments (see revised Fig. 3C) it may regulate release indirectly by affecting e.g. action potential shape. Moreover, in response to the more detailed suggestions to authors we provide new data that give additional insight.

      (5) They provide compelling evidence that IS4A is required for the amplitude of somatic sustained HVA calcium currents. However, the evidence for effects on biophysical properties and activation voltage (p. 13) is less convincing. Is the phenotype confined to the sustained phase, or are other aspects of the current also affected (Figure 2J)? Could they also show the quantification of further parameters, such as CaV2 peak current density, charge density, as well as inactivation kinetics for the two genotypes? I also suggest plotting peaknormalized HVA current density and conductance (G/Gmax) as a function of Vm. Could a decrease in current density due to decreased channel expression be the only phenotype? How would changes in the sustained phase translate into altered synaptic transmission in response to AP stimulation?

      Most importantly, sustained HVA current is abolished upon excision of IS4B (not IS4A, we think the reviewer accidentally mixed up the genotype) and presynaptic active zones at the NMJ contain only cac isoforms with the IS4B exon. This indicates that the cac isoforms that mediate evoked release encode HVA channels. The somatodendritic currents shown in the revised figure 3C (previously 2J) that remain upon excision of IS4B are mediated by IS4A containing cac isoforms. Please note that these never localize to the presynaptic active zone, and thus do not contribute to evoked release. Therefore, the interpretation is that specifically sustained HVA current encoded by IS4B cac isoforms is required for synaptic transmission. Reduced cac current density due to decreased channel expression is not the cause for impaired evoked release upon IS4B excision, but instead, the cause is the absence of any cac channels in active zones. IS4B-containing cac isoforms encode sustained HVA current, and we speculate that this might be a well suited current to minimize cacophony channel inactivation in the presynaptic active zone. Given that HVA current shows fast voltage dependent activation and fast inactivation upon repolarization, it is useful at large intraburst firing frequencies as observed during crawling (Kadas et al., 2017) without excessive cac inactivation (see page 15, Kadas, lines 16 to 20).

      However, we agree with the reviewer that a deeper electrophysiological analysis of splice isoform specific cac currents will be instructive. We have now added traces of control and ΔIS4B from a holding potential of -90 mv (revised Fig. 3C, bottom traces and revised text on page 7, line 43 to page 8, lines 1 to 10), and these are also consistent with IS4B mediating sustained HVA cac current. However, further analysis of activation and inactivation voltages and kinetics suffers form space clamp issues in recordings from the somata of such complex neurons (DLM motoneurons of the adult fly contain roughly 6000 µm of dendrites with over 4000 branches, Ryglewski et al., 2017, Neuron 93(3):632-645). Therefore, we will analyze the currents in a heterologous expression system and present these data to the scientific community as a separate study at a later time point.

      (6) Why was the STED data analysis confined to the same optical section, and not to max. intensity z-projections? How many and which optical sections were considered for each active zone? What were the criteria for choosing the optical sections? Was synapse orientation considered for the nearest neighbor Cac - Brp cluster distance analysis? How do the nearest-neighbor distances compare between "planar" and "side-view" Brp puncta?

      Maximum intensity z-projections would be imprecise because they can artificially suggest close proximity of label that is close by in x and y but far away in z. Therefore, the analysis was executed in xy-direction of various planes of entire 3D image stacks. We considered active zones of different orientations (Figs. 5C, D) to account for all planes. In fact, we searched the entire z-stacks until we found active zones of all orientations within the same boutons, as shown in figures 5C1-C6. The same active zone orientations were analyzed for all exon-out mutants with cac localization in active zones. The distance between cac and brp did not change if viewed from the side or any other orientation. We now explain this in more clarity in the results text on page 9, lines 23/24.

      (7) Cac clusters localize to the Brp center (e.g., Liu et al., 2011). They conclude that Cav2 localization within Brp is not affected in the cac variants (p. 8). However, their analysis is not informative regarding a potential offset between the central cac cluster and the Brp "ring". Did they/could they analyze cac localization with regard to Brp ring center localization of planar synapses, as well as Brp-ring dimensions?

      In the top views (planar) we did not find any clear offset in cac orientation to brp between genotypes. In such planar synapses (top views, Fig. 5D, left row) we did not find any difference in Brp ring dimensions. We did not quantify brp ring dimensions rigorously, because this study focusses on cac splice isoform-specific localization and function. Possible effects of different cac isoforms on brp-ring dimensions or other aspects of scaffold structure are not central to our study, in particular given that brp puncta are clearly present even if cac is absent from the synapse (Fig. 3A), indicating that cac is not instructive for the formation of the brp scaffold.

      (8) Given the accelerated PSC decay/ decreased half width in dI-IIA (Fig. 5Q), I recommend reporting PSC charge in Figure 3, and PPR charge in Figures 5A-D. The charge-based PPRs of dI-IIA mutants likely resemble WT more closely than the amplitude-based PPR. In addition, miniature PSC decay kinetics should be reported, as they may contribute to altered decay kinetics. How could faster cac inactivation kinetics in response to single AP stimulation result in a decreased PSC half-width? Is there any evidence for an effect of calcium current inactivation on PSC kinetics? On a similar note, is there any evidence that AP waveform changes accelerate PSC kinetics? PSC decay kinetics are mainly determined by GluR decay kinetics/desensitization. The arguments supporting the role of cac splice isoforms in PSC kinetics outlined in the discussion section are not convincing and should be revised.

      We agree that reporting charge in figure 3 is informative and do so in the revised text. Since the result (no significant difference in the PSCs between between CS, cac<sup>GFP</sup>, <sup>ΔI-IIA</sup>, and transheterozygous I-IIA/I-IIB, but significantly smaller values in ΔI-IIB) remained unchanged no matter whether charge or amplitude were analyzed, we decided to leave the figure as is and report the additional analysis in the text (page 8, lines 40 to 42). This way, both types of analysis are reported. Please note that EPSC amplitude is slightly but not significantly increased upon excision of I-IIA (Fig. 4J), whereas EPSC half amplitude width is significantly smaller (Fig. 5Q, now revised Fig 6R). Together, a tendency of increased EPSC amplitudes and smaller half amplitude width result in statistically insignificant changes in EPSC in ∆I-IIA (now discussed on page 15, lines 37 to 40). We also understand the reviewer’s concern attributing altered EPSC kinetics to presynaptic cac channel properties. We have toned down our interpretation in the discussion and list possible alterations in presynaptic AP shape or cac channel kinetics as alternative explanations (not conclusions; see revised discussion on page 15, line 40 to page 16, line 2). Moreover, we have quantified postsynaptic GluRIIA abundance to test whether altered PSC kinetics are caused by altered GluRIIA expression. In our opinion, the latter is more instructive than mini decay kinetic analysis because this depends strongly on the distance of the recording electrode to the actual site of transmission in these large muscle cells. Although we find no difference in GluRIIA expression levels we now clearly state that we cannot exclude other changes in GluR receptor fields, which of course, could also explain altered PSC kinetics. We have updated the discussion on page 16, lines 2/3 accordingly.

      (9) Paired-pulse ratios (PPRs): On how many sweeps are the PPRs based? In which sequence were the intervals applied? Are PPR values based on the average of the second over the first PSC amplitudes of all sweeps, or on the PPRs of each sweep and then averaged? The latter calculation may result in spurious facilitation, and thus to the large PPRs seen in dI-IIB mutants (Kim & Alger, 2001; doi: 10.1523/JNEUROSCI.21-2409608.2001).

      We agree that the PP protocol and analyses had to be described more precisely in the methods and have done so on page 23, lines 31 to 37 in the methods. Mean PPR values are based on the PPRs of each sweep and then averaged. We are aware of the study of Kim and Alger 2001 and have re-analyzed the PP data in both ways outlined by the reviewer. We get identical results with either analyses method. Spurious facilitation is thus not an issue in our data. We now explain this in the methods section along with the PPR protocol. The large spread seen in dI-IIB is indeed caused by reduced calcium influx into active zones with fewer channels, as anticipated by the reviewer (see next point).

      (10) Could the dI-IIB phenotype be simply explained by a decrease in channel number/ release probability? To test this, I propose investigating PPRs and short-term dynamics during train stimulation at lower extracellular Ca2+ concentration in WT. The Ca2+ concentration could be titrated such that the first PSC amplitude is similar between WT and dI-IIB mutants. This experiment would test if the increased PPR/depression variability is a secondary consequence of a decrease in Ca2+ influx, or specific to the splice isoform.

      In fact, the interpretation that decreased PSC amplitude upon I-IIB excision is caused mainly by reduced channel number is precisely our interpretation (see discussion page 14, last paragraph to page 15, first paragraph in the original submission, now page 16, second paragraph paragraph). In addition, we are grateful for the reviewer’s suggestion to triturate the external calcium such that the first PSC amplitude in matches in ∆I-IIB and control. This experiment tests whether altered short term plasticity is solely a function of altered channel number or whether additional causes, such as altered channel properties, also play into this. We triturated the first pulse amplitude in ∆I-IIB to match control and find that paired pulse ratio and the variance thereof are not different anymore. Therefore, the differences observed in identical external calcium can be fully explained by altered channel numbers. This additional dataset is shown in the revised figures 6D and E and referred to in the results section on page 10, lines 14 to 25 and the discussion on page16, lines 36 to 38.

      (11) How were the depression kinetics analyzed? How many trains were used for each cell, and how do the tau values depend on the first PSC amplitude? Time constants in the range of a few (5-10) milliseconds are not informative for train stimulations with a frequency of 1 or 10 Hz (the unit is missing in Figure 5H). Also, the data shown in Figures 5E-K suggest slower time constants than 5-10 ms. Together, are the data indeed consistent with the idea that dIIIB does not only affect cac channel number, but also PPR/depression variability (p. 9)?

      For each animal the amplitudes of all subsequent PSCs in each train were plotted over time and fitted with a single exponential. For depression at 1 and 10 Hz, we used one train per animal, and 5-6 animals per genotype (as reflected in the data points in Figs. 6I, M). This is now explained in more detail in the revised methods section (page 23, lines 39 to 41). The tau values are not affected by the amplitude of the first PSC. First, we carefully re-fitted new and previously presented depression data and find that the taus for depression at low stimulation frequencies (1 and 10Hz) are not affected by exon excisions at the I-II site. We thank the reviewer for detecting our error in units and tau values in the previous figure panels 5H and L (this has now been corrected in the revised figure panels 6I and M). Given that PSC amplitude upon I-IIB excision is significantly smaller than in controls and following I-IIA excision, we suspected that the time course of depression at low stimulation frequency is not significantly affected by the amount of calcium influx during the first PSC. To further test this, we followed the reviewer ’s suggestion and re-measured depression at 1 and 10 Hz for cac-GFP controls and for delta I-IIB in a higher external calcium concentration (1.8 mM), so that the first PSC was increased in amplitude in both genotypes (1.8 mM external calcium triturates the PSC amplitude in delta I-IIB to match that of controls measured in 0.5 mM external calcium, see revised Figs. 6H, L). Neither in control, nor in delta I-IIB did this affect the time course of synaptic depression (see revised Figs. 6I, M). This indicates that at low stimulation frequencies (1 and 10Hz) the time course of depression is not affected by mean quantal content. This is consistent with the paired pulse ratio at 100 ms interpulse interval shown in figures 6A-D. However, for synaptic depression at 1 Hz stimulation the variability of the data is higher for delta I-IIB (independent of external calcium concentration, see rev. Fig. 6I), which might also be due to reduced channel number in this genotype. Taken together, the data are in line with the idea that altered cac channel numbers in active zones are sufficient to explain all effects that we observe upon I-IIB excision on PPRs and synaptic depression at low stimulation frequencies. This is now clarified in the revised text on page 12, lines 3 to 7.

      (12) The GFP-tagged I-IIA and mEOS4b-tagged I-IIB cac puncta shown in Figure 6N appear larger than the Brp puncta. Endogenously tagged cac puncta are typically smaller than Brp puncta (Gratz et al., 2019). Also, the I-IIA and I-IIB fluorescence sometimes appear to be partially non-overlapping. First, I suggest adding panels that show all three channels merged. Second, could they analyze the area and area overlap of I-IIA and I-IIB with regard to each other and to Brp, and compare it to cac-GFP? Any speculation as to how the different tags could affect localization? Finally, I recommend moving the dI-IIA and dI-IIB localization data shown in Figure 6N to an earlier figure (Figure 1 or Figure 3).

      We now show panels with the two I-II cac isoforms merged in the revised figure 7H (previously 6N). We also tested merging all three labels as suggested, but found this not instructive for the reader. We thank the reviewer for pointing out that the Brp puncta appeared smaller than the cac puncta in some panels. We carefully went through the data and found that the Brp puncta are not systematically smaller than the cac puncta. Please note that punctum size can appear quite differently, depending on different staining qualities as well as different laser intensities and different point spread in different imaging channels. The purpose of this figure was not to analyze punctum size and labeling intensity, but instead, to demonstrate that I-IIA and I-IIB are both present in most active zones, but some active zones show only I-IIB labeling, as quantified in figure 7I. We did not follow the suggestion to conduct additional co-localization analyses and compare it with cac-GFP controls, because Pearson co-localization coefficients for cac-GFP and all exon-out variants analyzed, including delta I-IIA and delta I-IIB are presented in the revised figure 4D. Moreover, delta I-IIA and delta I-IIB show similar Manders 1 and 2 co-localization coefficients with Brp (see Figs. 4E, F). We do not want to speculate whether the different tags have any effect on localization precision. Artificial differences in localization precision can also be suggested by different antibodies, but we know from our STED analyses with identical tags and antibodies for all isoforms that I-IIA and I-IIB co-localize identically with Brp (see Figs. 5A-E). Finally, we prefer to not move the figure because we believe it is informative to show our finding that active zones usually contain both splice I-II variants together with the finding that only I-IIB is required for PHP.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor Comments:

      We thank you for your submission. All three reviewers urge caution in interpreting the S4 splice variant playing a role specifically in Cac localization, as opposed to just leading to instability and degradation. There are other issues with the electrophysiological experiments, a need for improved imaging and analyses, and some areas of interpretation detailed in the reviews.

      We agree that additional data was required to conclude that IS4 splicing plays a specific role in cac channel localization and is not just leading to channel instability and degradation. As outlined in detail in our response to reviewer 1, comment 1, we conducted several sets of experiments to support our interpretation. First, electrophysiological experiments show that upon removal of IS4B, which eliminates synaptic transmission at the larval NMJ and cac positive label in presynaptic active zones, somatodendritic cac current is reliably recorded (new data in revised figure 3C). This is not in line with a channel instability or degradation effect, but instead with IS4B containing isoforms being required and sufficient for evoked release from NMJ motor terminals, whereas IS4A isoforms are not sufficient for evoked release from axon terminals, but IS4A isoforms alone can mediate a distinct component of somatodendritic calcium current. Second, immunohostochemical analyses reveal that IS4A, which is not present in NMJ presynaptic active zones, is expressed sparsely, but in reproducible patterns in the larval brain lobes and in specific regions of the anterior VNC parts (new supplementary figure 1). Again, the absence of a IS4A-containing cac isoform from presynaptic active zones but their simultaneous presence in other parts of the nervous system is in accord with isoform specific localization, but not with general channel isoform instability. Third, enlargements of NMJ boutons with brp positive presynaptic active zones confirm the absence of IS4A and the presence of IS4B in active zones (these enlargements are now shown in the revised figures 2A-C, 3A, and 4A-C). Fourth, as suggested we have quantified the Pearson co-localization of IS4 isoforms with Brp in presynaptic active zones (revised Fig. 2D). This confirms quantitatively similar co-localization of IS4B and control with Brp, but no co-localization of IS4A with Brp. In fact, the labeling intensity of IS4A in presynaptic active zones is quantitatively not significantly different from background, no IS4A label is detected anywhere in the axon terminals at the NMJ, but we find IS4 label in the CNS. Together, these data strongly support our interpretation that the IS4 splice site plays a distinct role in cac channel localization. Figure legends as well as results and discussion section have been modified accordingly (the respective page and line numbers are listed in our-point-by-point responses).

      In addition, we have carefully addressed all other public comments as well as all other recommendations for authors by providing multiple new data sets, new image analyses, and revising text. Addressing the insightful comments of all three reviewers and the reviewing editor has greatly helped to make the manuscript better.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The conclusion that the IS4B exon controls Cac localization to active zones versus simply being required for channel abundance is not well supported. The authors need to either mention both possibilities or provide stronger support for the active zone localization model if they want to emphasize this point.

      We agree and have included several additional data sets as outlined in our response to point 1 of reviewer 1 and to the reviewing editor (see above). These new data strongly support our interpretation that the IS4B exon controls Cac localization to active zones and is not simply required for channel abundance. The additions to the figures and accompanying text (including the respective figure panel, page, and line numbers) are listed in the point-bypoint responses to the reviewers’ public suggestions.

      Figure 2C staining for Cac localization in the delta 4B line is difficult to compare to the others, as the background staining is so high (muscles are green for example). As such, it is hard to determine whether the arrows in C are just background.

      We had over-emphasized the green label to show that there really is no cacophony label in active zones. However, we agree that this hampered image interpretation. Thus, we have adjusted brightness such that it matches the other genotypes (see new figure panel 2C, and figure 3A, bottom). Revising the figure as suggested by the reviewer shows much more clearly that IS4B puncta are detected exclusively in presynaptic active zones, whereas IS4A channels are not detectable in active zones or anywhere else in the axon terminal boutons. Quantification of IS4A label in brp positive active zones confirms that labeling intensity is not significantly above background (page 6, lines 29 to 31 and page 7, lines 19 to 21). Therefore, IS4A is not detectable in active zones at the NMJ.

      It seems more likely that the removal of the 4B exon simply destabilizes the protein and causes it to be degraded (as suggested by the Western), rather than mislocalizing it away from active zones. It's hard to imagine how some residue changes in the S4 voltage sensor would control active zone localization to begin with. The authors should note that the alternative explanation is that the protein is just degraded when the 4B exon is removed.

      Based on additional data and analyses, we disagree with the interpretation that removal of IS4B disrupts protein integrity and present multiple lines of evidence that support sparse expression of IS4A channels (ΔIS4B). As outlined in our response to reviewer 1 and to the reviewing editor, we show (1) in new immunohistochemical stainings (new supplementary figure 1) that upon removal of IS4B, sparse label is detectable in the VNC and the brain lobes (for detail see above). (2) In our new figure 3C, we show cacophony-mediated somatodendritic calcium currents recorded from adult flight motoneurons in a control situation and upon removal of IS4B that leaves only IS4A channels. This clearly demonstrates that IS4A underlies a substantial component of the HVA somatodendritic calcium current, although it is absence from axon terminals. This is in line with isoform specific functions at different locations, but not with IS4A instability/degradation. (3) We do not agree with the reviewer’s interpretation of the Western Blot data in figure 1E (formerly figure 1D). Together with our immunohistochemical data that show sparse cacophony IS4A expression, we think that the faint band upon removal of IS4B in a heterozygous background (that reduces labeled channels even further) reflects the sparseness of IS4A expression. This sparseness is not due to channel instability, but to IS4A functions that are less abundant than the ubiquitously expressed cac<sup>IS4B</sup> channels at presynaptic active zones of fast chemical synapses (see page 15, lines 24 to 29).

      If they really want to claim the 4B exon governs active zone localization, much higher quality imaging is required (with enlarged views of individual boutons and their AZs, rather than the low-quality full NMJ imaging provided). Similarly, higher resolution imaging of Cac localization at Muscle 12 (Figure 2H) boutons would be very useful, as the current images are blurry and hard to interpret. Figure 6N shows beautiful high-resolution Cac and Brp imaging in single boutons for the I-II exon manipulations - the authors should do the same for the 4B line. For all immuno in Figure 2, it is important to quantify Cac intensity as well. There is no quantification provided, just a sample image. The authors should provide quantification as they do for the delta I-II exons in Figure 3.

      We did as suggested and added figure panels to figure 2A-C and to new figures 3A (formerly part of figure 2 and 4A-C (formerly figure 3) showing magnified label at the NMJ AZs to better judge on cacophony expression after exon excision. These data are now referred to in the results section on page 6, lines 22 to 24, page 7, lines 18 to 21 and page 8, lines 17/18.

      As suggested, we now also provide quantification of co-localization with brp puncta as Pearson’s correlation coefficient for control, IS4B, and IS4A in the new figure panel 2D (text on page 6, lines 34 to 38). This further underscores control-like active zone localization of IS4B but no significant active zone localization of IS4A. As suggested, we quantified now also the intensity of IS4B label in active zones, and it was not different from control (see revised figure 4H and text on page 8, lines 38/39). We did not quantify the intensity of IS4A label, because it was not over background (text, page 6, lines 30/31).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1a) Questions about the engineered Cac splice isoform alleles:

      The authors using CRISPR gene editing to selectively remove the entire alternatively spliced exons of interest. Do the authors know what happens to the cac transcript with the deleted exon? Is the deleted exon just skipped and spliced to the next exon? Or does the transcript instead undergo nonsense-mediated decay?

      We do not believe that there is nonsense mediated mRNA decay, because for all exon excisions the respective mRNA and protein are made. Protein has been detected on the level of Western blotting and immunocytochemistry. Therefore, we are certain that the mRNA is viable for each exon excision (and we have confirmed this for low abundance cac protein isoforms by rt-PCR), but only subsets of cac isoforms can be made from mRNAs that are lacking specific exons. However, we can not make any statements as to whether the lack of specific protein isoforms exerts feedback on mRNA stability, the rate of transcription and translation, or other unknown effects.

      (1b) While it is clear that the IS4 exons encode part of the voltage sensor in the first repeat, are there studies in Drosophila to support the putative Ca-beta and G-protein beta-gamma binding sites in the I-II loop? Or are these inferred from Mammalian studies?

      To the best of our knowledge, there are no studies in Drosophila that unambiguously show Caβ and Gβγ binding sites in the I-II loop of cacophony. However, sequence analysis strongly suggests that I-IIB contains both, a Caβ as well as a Gβγ binding site (AID: α-interacting domain) because the binding motif QXXER is present. In mouse Cav2.1 and Ca<sub>v</sub>2.2 channels the sequence is QQIER, while in Drosophila cacophony I-IIB it is QQLER. In the alternative IIIA, this motif is not present, strongly suggesting that G<sub>βγ</sub> subunits cannot interact at the AID. However, as already suggested by Smith et al. (1998), based on sequence analysis, Ca<sub>β</sub> should still be able to bind, although possibly with a lower affinity. We agree that this information should be given to the reader and have revised the text accordingly on page 5, lines 9 to 17.

      (1c) The authors assert that splicing of Cav2/cac in flies is a means to encode diversity, as mammals obviously have 4 Cav2 genes vs 1 in flies. However, as the authors likely know, mammalian Cav2 channels also have various splice isoforms encoded in each of the 4 Cav2 genes. The authors should discuss in more detail what is known about the splicing of individual mammalian Cav2 channels and whether there are any homologous properties in mammalian channels controlled by alternative splicing.

      We agree and now provide a more comprehensive discussion of vertebrate Ca<sub>v</sub>2 splicing and its impact on channel function. In line to what we report in Drosophila, properties like G<sub>βγ</sub> binding and activation voltage can also be affected by alternative splicing in vertebrate Ca<sub>v</sub>2 channel, through the exon patterns are quite different from Drosophila. We integrated this part on page 14, first paragraph) in the revised discussion. The respective text is below for the reviewer’s convenience:

      “However, alternative splicing increases functional diversity also in mammalian Ca<sub>v</sub>2 channels. Although the mutually exclusive splice site in the S4 segment of the first homologous repeat (IS4) is not present in vertebrate Cav channels, alternative splicing in the extracellular linker region between S3 and S4 is at a position to potentially change voltage sensor properties (Bezanilla 2002). Alternative splice sites in rat Ca<sub>v</sub>2.1 exon 24 (homologous repeat III) and in exon 31 (homologous repeat IV) within the S3-S4 loop modulate channel pharmacology, such as differences in the sensitivity of Ca<sub>v</sub>2.1 to Agatoxin. Alternative splicing is thus a potential cause for the different pharmacological profiles of P- and Q-channels (both Ca<sub>v</sub>2.1; Bourinet et al. 1999). Moreover, the intracellular loop connecting homologous repeats I and II is encoded by 3-5 exons and provides strong interaction with G<sub>βγ</sub>-subunits (Herlitze et al. 1996). In Ca<sub>v</sub>2.1 channels, binding to G<sub>βγ</sub> subunits is potentially modulated by alternative splicing of exon 10 (Bourinet et al. 1999). Moreover, whole cell currents of splice forms α1A-a (no Valine at position 421) and α1A-b (with Valine) represent alternative variants for the I-II intracellular loop in rat Ca<sub>v</sub>2.1 and Ca<sub>v</sub>2.2 channels. While α1A-a exhibits fast inactivation and more negative activation, α1A-b has delayed inactivation and a positive shift in the IV-curve (Bourinet et al. 1999). This is phenotypically similar to what we find for the mutually exclusive exons at the IS4 site, in which IS4B mediates high voltage activated cacophony currents while IS4A channels activate at more negative potentials and show transient current (Fig. 3; see also Ryglewski et al. 2012). Furthermore, altered Ca<sub>β</sub> interaction have been shown for splice isoforms in loop III (Bourinet et al. 1999), similar to what we suspect for the I-II site in cacophony. Finally, in mammalian VGCCs, the C-terminus presents a large splicing hub affecting channel function as well as coupling distance to other proteins. Taken together, Ca<sub>v</sub>2  channel diversity is greatly enhanced by alternative splicing also in vertebrates, but the specific two mutually exclusive exon pairs investigated here are not present in vertebrate Ca<sub>v</sub>2 genes.”

      (1d) In Figure 1, it would be helpful to see the entire cac genomic locus with all introns/exons and the 4 specific exons targeted for deletion.

      We agree and have changed figure 1 accordingly.

      (2a) Cav2.IS4B deletion alleles:

      More work is necessary to explain the localization of Cac controlled by the IS4B exon. First, can the authors determine whether actual Cac channels are present at NMJ boutons? The authors seem to indicate that in the IS4B deletion mutants, some Cac (GFP) signal remains in a diffuse pattern across NMJ boutons. However, from the imaging of wild-type Cac-GFP (and previous studies), there is no Cac signal outside of active zones defined by the BRP signal. It would benefit the study to a) take additional, higher resolution images of the remaining Cac signal at NMJs in IS4B deletion mutants, and b) comment on whether the apparent remaining signal in these mutants is only observed in the absence of IS4Bcontaining Cac channels, or if the IS4A-positive channels are normally observed (but perhaps mis-localized?).

      We have conducted additional analyses to show convincingly that IS4A channels (that remain upon IS4B deletion) are absent from presynaptic active zone. Please see also responses to reviewers 1 and 3. By adjusting the background values in of CLSM images to identical values in control, delta IS4A, and delta IS4B, as well as by providing selective enlargements as suggested, the figure panels 2C, Ci and 3A now show much clearer, that upon deletion of IS4B no cac label remains in active zones or anywhere else in the axon terminal boutons (see text on page 6, lines 22 to 24). This is further confirmed by quantification showing the in IS4B mutants cac labeling intensity in active zones is not above background (see text on page 6, lines 27 to 31). We never intended to indicate that there was cac signal outside of active zones defined by the brp signal, and we now carefully went through the text to not indicate this possibility unintentionally anywhere in the manuscript.

      (2b) Do the authors know whether any presynaptic Ca2+ influx is contributed by IS4Apositive Cac channels at boutons, given the potential diffuse localization? There are various approaches for doing presynaptic Ca2+ imaging that could provide insight into this question.

      We agree that this is an interesting question. However, based on the revisions made, we now show with more clarity that IS4A channels are absent from the presynaptic terminal at the NMJ. IS4A labeling intensities within active zones and anywhere else in the axon terminals are not different from background (see text on page 6, lines 27 to 31 and revised Figs. 2C, Ci, and 3A with new selective enlargements in response to comments of both other reviewers). This is in line with our finding that evoked synaptic transmission from NMJ axon terminals to muscle cells is mostly absent upon excision of IS4B (see Fig. 3B). The very small amplitude EPSC (below 5 % of the normal amplitude of evoked EPSCs) that can still be recorded in the absence of IS4B is similar to what is observed in cac null mutant junctions and is mediated by calcium influx through another voltage gated calcium channels, a Ca<sub>v</sub>1 homolog named Dmca1D, as we have previously published (Krick et al., 2021, PNAS 118(28):e2106621118. Gathering additional support for the absence of IS4A from presynaptic terminals by calcium imaging experiments would suffer significantly from the presence of additional types of VGCCs in presynaptic terminals (for sure Dmca1D (Krick et al., 2021) and potentially also the Ca<sub>v</sub>3 homolog DmαG or Dm-α1T). Such experiments would require mosaic null mutants for cac and DmαG channels in a mosaic IS4B excision mutant, which, if feasible at all, would be very hard and time consuming to generate. In the light of the additional clarification that IS4A is not located in NMJ axon terminal boutons, as shown by additional labeling intensity analysis, revised figures with selective enlargement, and revised text, we feel confident to state that IS4A is not sufficient for evoked SV release.

      (2c) Mechanistically, how are amino acid changes in one of the voltage sensing domains in Cac related to trafficking/stabilization/localization of Cac to AZs?

      This is an exciting question that has occupied our discussions a lot. Some sorting mechanism must exist that recognizes the correct protein isoforms, just as sorting and transport mechanisms exist that transport other synaptic proteins to the synapse. We do not think that the few amino acid changes in the voltage sensor are directly involved in protein targeting. We rather believe that the cacophony variants that happen to contain this specific voltage sensor are selected for transport out to the synapse. There are possibilities to achieve this cell biological, but we have not further addressed potential mechanisms because we do not want enter the realms of speculation.

      (3) How are auxiliary subunits impacted in the Cac isoform mutants?

      Recent work by Kate O'Connor-Giles has shown that both Stj and Ca-Beta subunits localize to active zones along with Cac at the Drosophila NMJ. Endogenously tagged Stj and CaBeta alleles are now available, so it would be of interest to determine if Stj and particular Cabeta levels or localization change in the various Cac isoform alleles. This would be particularly interesting given the putative binding site for Ca-beta encoded in the I-II linker.

      We agree that the synthesis of the work of Kate O'Connor-Giles group and our study open up new avenues to explore exciting hypotheses about differential coupling of specific cacophony splice isoforms with distinct accessory proteins such as Caβ and α<sub>2</sub>δ subunits. However, this requires numerous full sets of additional experiments and is beyond the scope of this study.

      (4a) Interpretation of short-term plasticity in the I-IIB exon deletion:

      The changes in short-term plasticity presented in Figure 5 are interpreted as an additional phenotype due to the loss of the I-IIB exon, but it seems this might be entirely explained simply due to the reduced Cac levels. Reduced Cac levels at active zones will obviously reduce Ca2+ influx and neurotransmitter release. This may be really the only phenotype/function of the I-IIB exon. Hence, to determine whether loss of the I-IIB exon encodes any functions in short-term plasticity, separate from reduced Cac levels, the authors should compare short-term plasticity in I-IIB loss alleles compared to wild type with starting EPSC amplitudes are equal (for example by reducing extracellular Ca2+ levels in wild type to achieve the same levels at in Cac I-IIB exon deleted alleles). Reduced release probability, simply by reduced Ca2+ influx (either by reduced Cac abundance or extracellular Ca2+) should result in more variability in transmission, so I am not sure there is any particular function of the I-IIB exon in maintaining transmission variability beyond controlling Cac abundance at active zones.

      For two reasons we are particularly grateful for this comment. First, it shows us that we needed to explain much clearer that our interpretation is that changes in paired pulse ratios (PPRs) and in depression at low stimulation frequencies are a causal consequence of lower channel numbers upon I-IIB exon deletion, precisely as pointed out by the reviewer. We have carefully revised the text accordingly on page 10, lines 14-25, page 11, lines 3-7 and 22-28; page 16, lines 36-38. Second, the experiment suggested by the reviewer is superb to provide additional evidence that the cause of altered PPRs is in fact reduced channel number, but not altered channel properties. Accordingly, we have conducted additional TEVC recordings in elevated external calcium (1.8 mM) so that the single PSC amplitudes in I-IIB excision animals match those of controls in 0.5 mM extracellular calcium. This makes the amplitudes and the variance of PPR for all interpulse intervals tested control-like (see revised Figs. 6D, E). This strongly indicates that differences observed in PPRs as well as the variance thereof were caused by the amount of calcium influx during the first EPSC, and thus by different channel numbers in active zones.

      (4b) Another point about the data in Figure 5: If "behaviorally relevant" motor neuron stimulation and recordings are the goal, the authors should also record under physiological Ca2+ conditions (1.8 mM), rather than the highly reduced Ca2+ levels (0.5 mM) they are using in their protocols.

      Although we doubt that the effective extracellular calcium concentration that determines the electromotoric force for calcium to enter the ensheathed motoneuron terminals in vivo during crawling is known, we followed the reviewer’s suggestion partly and have repeated the high frequency stimulation trains for ΔI-IIB in 1.8 mM calcium. As for short-term plasticity this brings the charge conducted to values as observed in control and in ΔI-IIA in 0.5 mM calcium. Therefore, all difference observed in previous figure 5 (now revised figure 6) can be accounted to different channel numbers in presynaptic active zones. This is now explained on page 11, lines 19-28. For controls recordings at high frequency stimulation in higher external calcium (e.g. 2 mM) have previously been published and show significant synaptic depression (e.g. Krick et al., 2021, PNAS). Given that in the exon out variants we do not expect any differences except from those caused by different channel numbers, we did not repeat these experiments for control and ΔI-IIA.

      (5a) Mechanism of Cac's role in PHP :

      As the authors likely know, mutations in Cac were previously reported to disrupt PHP expression (see Frank et al., 2006 Neuron). Inexplicably, this finding and publication were not cited anywhere in this manuscript (this paper should also be cited when introducing PhTx, as it was the first to characterize PhTx as a means of acutely inducing PHP). In the Frank et al. paper (and in several subsequent studies), PHP was shown to be blocked in mutations in Cac, namely the CacS allele. This allele, like the I-IIB excision allele, reduces baseline transmission presumably due to reduced Ca2+ influx through Cac. The authors should at a minimum discuss these previous findings and how they relate to what they find in Figure 6 regarding the block in PHP in the Cac I-IIB excision allele.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out and apologize for this oversight. We agree that it is imperative to cite the 2006 paper by Frank et al. when introducing PhTx mediated PHP as well as when discussing cac the effects of cac mutants on PHP together with other published work. We have revised the text accordingly on page 12, lines 9-11 and 21-23 and on page 17, lines 29-33.

      In terms of data presentation in Fig. 6, as is typical in the field, the authors should normalize their mEPSC/QC data as a percentage of baseline (+PhTx/-PhTx). This makes it easier to see the reduction in mEPSC values (the "homeostatic pressure" on the system) and then the homeostatic enhancement in QC. Similarly, in Fig. 6M, the authors should show both mEPSC and QC as a percentage of baseline (wild type or non-GluRIIA mutant background).

      We agree and have changed figure presentation accordingly. Figure 7 (formerly figure 6) was updated as was the accompanying results text on page 12, lines 23-40.

      (6) Cac I-IIA and I-IIB excision allele colocalization at AZs:

      These are very nice and important experiments shown in Figures 6N and O, which I suggest the authors consider analyzing in further detail. Most significantly:

      (6i) The authors nicely show that most AZs have a mix of both Cac IIA and IIB isoforms. Using simple intensity analysis, can the authors say anything about whether there is a consistent stoichiometric ratio of IIA vs IIB at single AZs? It is difficult to extract actual numbers of IIA vs IIB at individual AZs without having both isoforms labeled mEOS4b, but as a rough estimate can the authors say whether the immunofluorescence intensity of IIA:IIB is similar across each AZ? Or is there broad heterogeneity, with some AZs having low vs high ratios of each isoform (as the authors suggest across proximal to distal NMJ AZs)?

      We agree and have conducted experiments and analyses to provide these data. We measured the cac puncta fluorescence intensities for heterozygous cac<sup>sfGFP</sup>/cac, cacIIIA<sup>sfGFP</sup>/cacI-IIB, and cacI-IIB<sup>sfGFP</sup>/cacI-IIA animals. We preferred this strategy, because intensity was always measured from cac puncta with the same GFP tag. Next, we normalized all values to the intensities obtained in active zones from heterozygous cac<sup>sfGFP</sup>/cac controls and then plotted the intensities of I-IIA versus I-IIB containing active zones side by side. Across junctions and animals, we find a consistent ratio 2:1 in the relative intensities of I-IIB and I-IIA, thus indicating on average roughly twice as many I-IIB as compared to I-IIA channels across active zones. This is consistent with the counts in our STED analysis (see Fig. 5F). These new data are shown in the new figure panel 7J and referred to on page 13, lines 10-16 in the revised text.

      (6ii) Intensity analysis of Cac IIA vs IIB after PHP: Previous studies have shown Cac abundance increases at NMJ AZs after PHP. Can the authors determine whether both Cac IIA vs IIB isoforms increase after PHP or whether just one isoform is targeted for this enhancement?

      We already show that PHP is not possible in the absence of I-IIB channels (see figure 7). However, we agree that it is an interesting question to test whether I-IIA channel are added in the presence of I-IIB channels during PHP, but we consider this a detail beyond the scope of this study.

      Minor points:

      (1) Including line numbers in the manuscript would help to make reviewing easier.

      We agree and now provide line numbers.

      (2) Several typos (abstract "The By contrast", etc).

      We carefully double checked for typos.

      (3) Throughout the manuscript, the authors refer to Cac alleles and channels as "Cav2", which is unconventional in the field. Unless there is a compelling reason to deviate, I suggest the authors stick to referring to "Cac" (i.e. cacdIS4B, etc) rather than Cav2. The authors make clear in the introduction that Cac is the sole fly Cav2 channel, so there shouldn't be a need to constantly reinforce that cac=Cav2.

      We agree and have changed all fly Ca<sub>v</sub>2 reference to cac.

      (4) In some figures/text the authors use "PSC" to refer to "postsynaptic current", while in others (i.e. Figure 6) they switch to the more conventional terms of mEPSC or EPSC. I suggest the authors stick to a common convention (mEPSC and EPSC).

      We have changed PSC to EPSC throughout.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The abstract could focus more on the results at the expense of the background.

      We agree and have deleted the second introductory background sentence and added information on PPRs and depression during low frequency stimulation.

      (2) What does "strict" active zone localization refer to? Could they please define the term strict?

      Strict active zone localization means that cac puncta are detected in active zones but no cac label above background is found anywhere else throughout the presynaptic terminal, now defined on page 6, lines 27-29.

      (3) Single boutons/zoomed versions of the confocal images shown in Figures 2A-C, 2H, and 3A-C would be very helpful.

      We have provided these panels as suggested (see above and revised figures 2-4). Figure 3 is now figure 4.

      (4) The authors cite Ghelani et al. (2023) for increased cac levels during homeostatic plasticity. I recommend citing earlier work making similar observations (Gratz et al., 2019; DOI: 10.1523/JNEUROSCI.3068-18.2019), and linking them to increased presynaptic calcium influx (Müller & Davis, 2012; DOI: 10.1016/j.cub.2012.04.018).

      We agree and have added Gratz et al. 2019 and Davis and Müller 2012 to the results section on page 12, lines 17/18 and lines 21-23, in the discussion on page 17, lines 29-33.

      (5) The data shown in Figure 3 does not directly support the conclusion of altered release probability in dI-IIB. I therefore suggest changing the legend's title.

      We have reworded to “Excisions at the I-II exon do not affect active zone cacophony localization but can alter cacsfGFP label intensity in active zones and PSC amplitude” as this is reflecting the data shown in the figure panels more directly.

      (6) It would be helpful to specify "adult flight muscle" in Figure 2J.

      We agree that it is helpful to specify in the figure (now revised figure 3C) that the voltage clamp recordings of somatodendritic calcium current were conducted in adult flight motoneurons and have revised the headline of figure panel 3C and the legend accordingly. Please note, these are not muscle cells but central neurons.

      (7) Do dIS4B/Cav2null MNs indeed show an inward or outward current at -90 to -70 mV/-40 and -50 mV, or is this an analysis artifact?

      No, this is due to baseline fluctuations as typical for voltage clamp in central neurons with more than 6000 µm dendritic length and more than 4000 dendritic branches.

      (8) Loss of several presynaptic proteins, including Brp (Kittel et al., 2006), and RBP (Liu et al., 2011), induce changes in GluR field size (without apparent changes in miniature amplitude). The statement regarding the Cav2 isoform and possible effects on GluR number (p. 8) should be revised accordingly.

      We understand and have done two things. First, we measured the intensity of GluRIIA immunolabel in ΔI-IIA, ΔI-IIB, and controls and found no differences. Second, we reworded the statement. It now reads on page 9, lines 1-6: “It seems unlikely that presynaptic cac channel isoform type affects glutamate receptor types or numbers, because the amplitude of spontaneous miniature postsynaptic currents (mEPSCs, Fig. 4K) and the labeling intensity of postsynaptic GluRIIA receptors are not significantly different between controls, I-IIA, and I-IIB junctions (see suppl. Fig. 2, p = 0.48, ordinary one-way ANOVA, mean and SD intensity values are 61.0 ± 6.9 (control), 55.8 ± 8.5 (∆I-IIA), 61.1 ± 17.3 (∆I-IIB)). However, we cannot exclude altered GluRIIB numbers and have not quantified GluR receptor field sizes.”

      (9) The statement relating miniature frequency to RRP size is unclear (p. 8). Is there any evidence for a correlation between miniature frequency to RRP size? Could the authors please clarify?

      We agree that this statement requires caution. Although there is some published evidence for a correlation of RRP size and mini frequency (Neuron, 2009 61(3):412-24. doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2008.12.029 and Journal of Neuroscience 44 (18) e1253232024; doi: 10.1523/JNEUROSCI.1253-23.2024), which we now refer to on page 9, it is not clear whether this is true for all synapses and how linear such a relationship may be. Therefore, we have revised the text on page 9, lines 6-9. It now reads: “Similarly, the frequency of miniature postsynaptic currents (mEPSCs) remains unaltered. Since mEPSCs frequency has been related to RRP size at some synapses (Pan et al., 2009; Ralowicz et al., 2024) this indicates unaltered RRP size upon I-IIB excision, but we have not directly measured RRP size.”

      (10) Please define the "strict top view" of synapses (p. 8).

      Top view is what this reviewer referred to as “planar view” in the public review points 6 and 7. In our responses to these public review points we now also define “strict top view”, see page 9, lines 17-19.

      (11) Two papers are cited regarding a linear relationship between calcium channel number and release probability (p. 15). Many more papers could be cited to demonstrate a supralinear relationship (e.g., Dodge & Rahaminoff, 1967; Weyhersmüller et al., 2011 doi: 10.1523/JNEUROSCI.6698-10.2011). The data of the present study were collected at an extracellular calcium concentration of 0.5 mM, whereas Meideiros et al. (2023) used 1.5 mM. The relationship between calcium and release is supra-linear around 0.5 mM extracellular calcium (Weyhersmüller et al. 2011). This should be discussed/the statements be revised. Also, the reference to Meideiros et al. (2023) should be included in the reference list.

      We have now updated the Medeiros reference (updated version of that paper appeared in eLife in 2024) in the text and reference list. We agree that the relationship of the calcium concentration and P<sub>r</sub> can also be non-linear and refer to this on page 16, lines 26-32, but the point we want to make is to relate defined changes in calcium channel number (not calcium influx) as assessed by multiple methods (CLSM intensity measures and sptPALM channel counting) to release probability. We now also clearly state that we measured at 0.5 mM external calcium (page 16, lines 27/28) whereas Medeiros et al. 2024 measured at 1.5 mM calcium (page 16, lines 31/32).

      (12) Figure 6: Quantal content does not have any units - please remove "n vesicles".

      We have revised this figure in response to reviewer 2 (comment 5) and quantal content is now expressed as percent baseline, thus without units (see revised figure 7).

      (13) Figure 6C should be auto-scaled from zero.

      This has been fixed by revising that figure in response to reviewer 2 (comment 5)

      (14) The data supporting the statement on impaired motor behavior and reduced vitality of adult IS4A should be either shown, or the statement should be removed (p. 13). Any hypotheses as to why IS4A is important for behavior and or viability?

      As suggested, we have removed that statement.

      (15) They do not provide any data supporting the statement that changes in PSC decay kinetics "counteract" the increase in PSC amplitude (p. 14). The sentence should be changed accordingly.

      We agree and have down toned. It now reads on page 16, lines 7-9: “During repetitive firing, the median increase of PSC amplitude by ~10 % is potentially counteracted by the significant decrease in PSC half amplitude width by ~25 %...”.

      (16) How do they explain the net locomotion speed increase in dI    -IIA larvae? Although the overall charge transfer is not affected during the stimulus protocols used, could the accelerated PSC decay affect PSP summation (I would actually expect a decrease in summation/slower speed)? Independent of the voltage-clamp data, is muscle input resistance changed in dI-IIA mutants?

      Muscle input resistance is not altered in I-II mutants. We refer to potential causes of the locomotion effects of I-IIA excision in the discussion. On page 16, lines 12 to 21 it reads: “there is no difference in charge transfer from the motoneuron axon terminal to the postsynaptic muscle cell between ∆I-IIA and control. Surprisingly, crawling is significantly affected by the removal of I-IIA, in that the animals show a significantly increased mean crawling speed but no significant change in the number of stops. Given that the presynaptic function at the NMJ is not strongly altered upon I-IIA excision, and that I-IIA likely mediates also Ca<sub>v</sub>2 functions outside presynaptic AZs (see above) and in other neuron types than motoneurons, and that the muscle calcium current is mediated by Ca<sub>v</sub>1>/i> and Ca<sub>v</sub>3, the effects of I-IIA excision of increasing crawling speed is unlikely caused by altered pre- or postsynaptic function at the NMJ. We judge it more likely that excision of I-IIA has multiple effects on sensory and pre-motor processing, but identification of these functions is beyond the scope of this study.”

    1. Author response:

      Provisional Responses to Review #1's comments:

      We thank the reviewer for the comments, which highlight both strengths and weaknesses.

      We acknowledge that the optimized parameter values are somewhat specific to Plasmodium, as demographic and mutation/recombination rates can vary across species. However, we would like to emphasize that our simulation and benchmarking framework, along with associated tools like the efficient ibdutils, should be broadly applicable to many species, such as Apicomplexan parasites and other high-recombining eukaryotes, especially when their demographic and evolutionary parameters can be provided or estimated. We will update relevant paragraphs in the disucssion to highlight this point.

      Results related to Refined IBD may not seem unexpected, but our work demonstrates that its direct application to malaria parasites without species-specific optimization can be suboptimal, as has previously occurred in malaria research with their validity not formally evaluated. We believe it is crucial for the research community focusing on non-standard model organisms to validate assumptions made in methods developed for standard models, such as humans, before they are applided to new species.

      Although standard deviations (SDs) are not provided for many analyses, we argue that simulating 14 chromosomes independently serves as repeats (data were shown as means over chromosomes), particularly when assessing the accuracy of IBD segments or scanning for selection signals. For analyses that aggregate information across chromosomes, we are planning to conduct additional repeated simulations or analyses to quantify the uncertainty of estimates. In the upcoming revised version, we will provide SDs where appropriate and explanations when repeated simulation are not necessary given a large number of data points have well captured their empirical distributions.

      Provisional response to review #2's comment:

      Thank you to the reviewer for the suggestions. We agree with the comments, and addressing the mentioned weakness will improve the manuscript's clarity and impact. We plan to enhance the introduction by highlighting the significance of studying malaria and specifically focusing on P. falciparum in this work. We will also update the discussion to reinforce the connection between our findings and malaria research and control and further emphasize the broader implications for the field.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      (1) Reviewer 3: Moreover, the conclusion that preBötC NMBR and GRPR activations are unnecessary for sighing is not fully supported by the current experimental design. While the study shows that sighing can still be induced despite pharmacological inhibition of NMBR and GRPR, this does not conclusively prove that these receptors are not required under natural conditions. 

      We concluded that “NMBR and GRPR receptors are not necessary for sigh generation”. We acknowledge that under normal conditions these receptors almost certainly play a role; in fact, microinjection of saporin conjugated to bombesin, which presumably ablates NMBR<sup>+</sup> and GRPR<sup>+</sup> preBötC neurons, completely eliminated endogenous sighing activity in awake mice (Li et al., Nature, 2015). However, that study did not establish that the receptors per se are essential in this context, since the protocol ablated not just the receptors but also the preBötC neurons that happened to express these receptors. Here, we show that we could evoke sighs AFTER complete pharmacological blockade of NMBRs and GRPRs. Also, we show that sighs can be elicited by stimulation of a distinct subpopulation of preBötC neurons expressing the peptide somatostatin (SST<sup>+</sup>). These results demonstrate that sighs can be evoked in absence of activation of NMBRs and/or GRPRs, leading to the conclusion that NMBRs and/or GRPRs are not required for sighs but rather contribute to periodic sigh generation under normal conditions.

      (2) Reviewer 1: To make such a novel (and quite surprising) claim requires many more studies and the conclusion is dependent on how the authors have defined a sigh. Moreover, some data within the paper conflicts with this idea.

      Our definition of sighs was carefully chosen so that it applied across different experimental conditions, including in vitro slices, anesthetized or awake in vivo. We defined sighs as transient changes in minute ventilation on a time scale slower than eupneic breathing period, to avoid classifying breathing after vagotomy or under isoflurane anesthesia as “all-sigh breathing”. This is why induction of persistent large amplitude breaths (such as in Figures 5-6) were not counted as sighs.

      (3) Reviewer 2: Several key technical aspects of the study require further clarification to aid in interpreting the experimental results, including issues relating to the validation of the transgenic mouse lines and virally transduced expressions of proteins utilized for optogenetic and chemogenetic experiments, as well as justifying the optogenetic photostimulation paradigms used to evoke sighs.

      The rationale for using SPP and LPP stems from our published observations of the effects of optogenetic stimulation of various preBötC neuronal subpopulations. Thus, SPP and LPP evoke the same responses in GlyT2 (Sherman et al., 2015) and Dbx1 (Cui et al., 2016) neurons, while for other subpopulations, e.g., SST (Cui et al., 2015), the effects of SPP are markedly different from LPP. Hence, in this study we examined both. As effects of SPP and LPP of SST neurons were examined previously (Cui et al., 2016), these protocols were not repeated except for evoking sighs after blockade of NMBR/GRPRs. SPP of pF NMB or GRP did not evoke any respiratory responses and hence were not presented in any figures (see Results, section “Activation of Nmb- or Grp-expressing pF neurons induces sighs”).

      (4) Reviewer 3: however, the rationale and experimental details require further explanation, and their impacts on the conclusion require clarification. For instance, how and why the variability in optogenetic activation conditions could impact the experimental outcomes. 

      Refractory periods reported here for pF NMB, pF GRP, preBötC NMBR and preBötC GRPR were all obtained using the same intensity LPP. We acknowledge the possibility, even the likelihood that higher intensity LPP would shorten refractory periods. In line with this, we observed that ectopic sighs were evoked earlier during the LPP as the sigh phase progressed. As described in RESULTS, such effects were observed for pF NMB, pF GRP, preBötC NMBR and preBötC GRPR only and not for preBötC SST, which might suggest that timing of intrinsically generated sighs depends on the NMB-GRP signaling pathway, yet sigh production depends on the SST pathway.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This is an elegant didactic exposition showing how dendritic plateau potentials can enable neurons to perform reliable 'binary' computations in the face of realistic spike time jitter in cortical networks. The authors make many good arguments, and the general concept underlying the paper is sound. A strength is their systematic progression from biophiysical to simplified models of single neurons, and their parallel investigation of spiking and binary neural networks, with training happening in the binary neural network.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Artificial intelligence (AI) could be useful in some applications and could help humankind. Some forms of AI work on the platform of artificial neural networks (ANN). ANNs are inspired by real brains and real neurons. Therefore understanding the repertoire and logic of real neurons could potentially improve AANs. Cell bodies of real neurons, and axons of real neurons, fire nerve impulses (nerve impulses are very brief ~2 ms, and very tall ~100 mV). Dendrites, which comprise ~80% of the total neuronal membrane (80% of the total neuronal apparatus) typically generate smaller (~50 mV amplitude) but much longer (~100 ms duration) electrical transients, called glutamate-mediated dendritic plateau potentials. The authors have built artificial neurons capable of generating such dendritic plateau potentials, and through computer simulations the authors concluded that long-lasting dendritic signals

      (plateau potentials) reduce negative impact of temporal jitter occurring in real brain, or in

      AANs. The authors showed that in AANs equipped with neurons whose dendrites are capable of generating local dendritic plateau potentials, the sparse, yet reliable spiking computations may not require precisely synchronized inputs. That means, the real world can impose notable fluctuations in the network activity and yet neurons could still recognize and pair the related network events. In the AANs equipped with dendritic plateaus, the computations are very robust even when inputs are only partially synchronized. In summary, dendritic plateau potentials endow neurons with ability to hold information longer and connect two events which did not happen at the same moment of time. Dendritic plateaus circumvent the negative impact, which the short membrane time constants arduously inflict on the action potential generation (in both real neurons and model neurons). Interestingly, one of the indirect conclusions of the current study is that neurons equipped with dendritic plateau potentials may reduce the total number of cells (nodes, units) required to perform robust computations.

      Strengths:

      The majority of published studies are descriptive in nature. Researchers report what they see or measure. A smaller number of studies embark on a more difficult task, which is to explain the logic and rationale of a particular natural design. The current study falls into that second category. The authors first recognize that conduction delays and noise make asynchrony unavoidable in communication between circuits in the real brain. This poses a fundamental problem for the integration of related inputs in real (noisy) world. Neurons with short membrane time constants can only integrate coincident inputs that arrive simultaneously within 2-3 ms of one another. Then the authors considered the role for dendritic plateau potentials. Glutamate-mediated depolarization events within individual dendritic branches, can remedy the situation by widening the integration time window of neurons. In summary, the authors recognized that one important feature of neurons, their dendrites, are built-in to solve the major problems of rapid signal processing: [1] temporal jitter, [2] variation, [3] stochasticity, and [4] reliability of computation. In one word, the dendritic plateau potentials have evolved in the central nervous systems to make rapid CNS computations robust.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors made some unsupported statements, which should either be deleted, or thoroughly defended in the manuscript. But first of all, the authors failed to bring this study to the readers who are not experts in computational modeling or Artificial Neural Networks. Critical terms (syntax) and ideas have not been explained. For example: [1] binary feature space? [2] 13 dimensions binary vectors? [3] the binary network could still cope with the loss of information due to the binarization of the continuous coordinates? [4] accurate summation?

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      However, I have a number of specific points, listed below, that should be addressed. Most of them are relatively minor, but the authors should especially address point 10, which is a major point, by redoing the simulations affected by the erroneous value of the time constant, and by remaking the relevant figures based on the new simulations.

      Specific comments:

      (1) 7f "This feature is conspicuous because it is an order of magnitude longer than unitary synaptic inputs and axonal spikes.": — It is an order of magnitude longer than AMPA receptor-mediated synaptic currents (EPSCs), but more similar in time course to synaptic potentials (EPSPs) whose decay is governed by the passive membrane time constant (about 10 to 20 ms in pyramidal neurons in vivo) and which determines the lifetime of the 'memory' of the neuron for synaptic inputs under conditions of subthreshold, non-spiking dendritic integration. The quoted sentence should be rewritten accordingly.

      Following this suggestion, we have rewritten the sentence (l. 7) to: "This timescale is conspicuous, being many times longer than the fastest signalling processes in the nervous systems, including Excitatory Post-Synaptic Potentials (EPSPs) and axonal spikes."

      (2) 16ff "This is especially relevant to integration of inputs during high conductance states that are prevalent in-vivo. In these states the effective time constant of the neuronal membrane is extremely short and varies substantially depending on synaptic drive [13, 34, 49].": — The time-averaged synaptic conductance driven by sensory input in vivo is much less high than implied by this statement (e.g. see Fig. 4 of Haider et al. 2013 https://www.nature.com/articles/nature11665 ), and reduces the passive membrane time constant only by a small percentage. The energy cost of a high prevalence of highconductance states and extremely short membrane time constants would also exceed the energy budget of the brain (ref. 4). I would therefore suggest dropping this sentence.

      We have clarified this sentence thanks to the reviewer's suggestion. We meant that the instantaneous, rather than the time-averaged, conductance can be very big. To clarify this we have rewritten this section (l. 15): This is especially relevant to integration of inputs during high conductance states that are prevalent in vivo, where a typical neuron receives significant synaptic drive. In these states, the effective membrane time constant can be extremely short, and varies substantially depending on synaptic input.

      (3) l. 17f "As a consequence, computations that rely on passive summation of multiple inputs place punishing constraints on spike timing precision.": — Again, the passive membrane time constant is on the order of 10 ms and I would tone down this statement accordingly, removing the word 'punishing' for example.

      Following the suggestion, we have rewritten the sentence to (l. 18): "As a consequence, computations that rely on passive summation of multiple inputs would place strong constraints on spike timing precision."

      (4) l. 18ff "Dendritic action potentials, by contrast, have a consistently long duration that is ensured by the kinetic properties of voltage gated ion channels and NMDA receptors [54, 47, 10, 3]. These properties are largely determined by the amino acid sequence of receptor and channel proteins that are specifically expressed in dendrites [45, 44, 40]. This suggests dendritic properties are specifically tuned to produce localised, suprathreshold events that outlive rapid membrane fluctuations.": — Yes, but see also Attwell & Gibb 2005 ( https://www.nature.com/articles/nrn1784 ), especially the last two of their key points. The slow NMDA receptor decay kinetics (and therefore their high affinity for binding glutamate) may also be the consequence of a design goal to set the temporal coherence window for NMDA receptor-mediated synaptic plasticity such as STDP to be on the order of tens of milliseconds, somewhat longer than the membrane time constant.

      The reviewer is correct; other functions (e.g. synaptic plasticity) are also part of the dendrite's repertoire. To acknowledge this, we added a section (l. 34) where we mention that our idea does not conflict with, for example, synaptic plasticity.

      (5) l. 32f "Numerous studies point out that nonlinear summation in dendrites can make neurons computationally equivalent to entire networks of simplified point models, or 'units' in a traditional neural network [9, 21, 38, 40, 45, 48, 50, 51].": — See also Beniaguev et al. 2021 ( https://www.cell.com/neuron/pdf/S0896-6273(21)00501-8.pdf ), which also speaks to the next sentence.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion; the citation has been added.

      (6) Fig. 2E and F: the top of panel F corresponds to the top of panel E, but the bottom ofpanel F does not correspond to the bottom of panel E - it corresponds to a dendritic neuron with passive dendrites, not a point neuron. Panel E should be changed to reflect this fact.

      We have followed the suggestion to change the figure.

      (7) l. 49f "Despite these dendritic spikes being initiated at different times, they still sum in the soma, leading to a sodium spike there (Figure 2E).": — You probably mean Fig. 2D, and instead of a sodium spike (which could be misunderstood as local and dendritic) you triggered a sodium action potential. Likewise, Fig. 2B (right) shows the timescale of sodium action potentials at the soma (cf. l. 46).

      The error in the referencing to the figure has been corrected. The phrasing has also been changed to "a sodium action potential" (l. 56), following the reviewer's suggestion.

      (8) Please check the scale bars in Fig. 2D. Do they also apply to panel F below? If yes thatshould be stated.

      The scale bars are indeed the same; I have repeated them in the figure to avoid any confusion.

      (9) l. 68 "This time constant is consistent with the high-conductance state of pyramidalneurons in the cortex [6]":

      You do not need to invoke a high-conductance state to justify this time constant, which is indeed typical for the membrane time constant of pyramidal neurons in vivo.

      On a related note, Fig. 3B and its legend seem to assume that tau = 1 ms, and calls that one EPSP duration in the legend. An EPSC may have a decay time constant of 1 ms, but an EPSP will have a decay time constant of about 10 ms, similar to the membrane time constant. Fig. 3B (and therefore also the rest of Figure 3) seems to have been constructed with a value of tau that is too small by a factor of 10, and this should be corrected by remaking the figure. If tau = 1 ms was used also in Figure 4 then this figure also needs to be remade.

      Section 3.3 and Table 1 also use tau = 1 ms. This is unrealistic and needs to be changed an appropriate value of tau = 10 ms is given by the authors themselves in line 67. The incorrect value of tau in Table 1 causes other entries of the Table to be terribly wrong; a leak conductance of 1 µS would imply an input resistance of the neuron of 1 MOhm, but somatic input resistances of pyramidal neurons in vivo are on the order of 20 to 50 MOhm. The total capacitance of 1 nF is slightly too large, and should be adjusted to yield a membrane time constant of 10 ms given an appropriate leak conductance leading to an input resistance of about 20 to 50 MOhm. These are key numbers to get right for both Figures 3 and 4, especially if you want to be able to say "We have been careful to respect the essence of basic physiological facts while trying to build an abstraction of how elementary spiking computations might occur." (l. 215f).

      We thank the reviewer for catching this. We had actually already used tau = 10 ms, but had not yet updated the paper. Moreover, the somatic input resistance was indeed off. To rectify this, we have used the values: $Cm = 0.5 nF$, $\taum = 10 ms$, $Rm = 20 M \Ohm$, $gl = 0.05 \mu S$. Figure 3 was remade using these values, and Table 1 updated accordingly.

      (10) l. 158ff "The assumption that each neuron connects to one dendrite of an upstream neuron is actually grounded in physiology, although it may appear like a strong assumption at first glance: related inputs arrive at local clusters of spines synchronously [60].": — You probably mean "each neuron connects to one dendrite of a downstream neuron." And I would add "But see Beniaguev et al. 2022 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.28.478132v2.abstract " - your restrictive arrangement of inputs is probably not really needed, especially if postsynaptic neurons have more dendrites.

      The suggested wording was correct, and has been now incorporated (l. 166). I have also added the suggested citation.

      (11) I note that the plateaus in Fig. 4D are much shorter than those in Fig. 2D and F, but thisis a good thing: The experimental and simulation results in Fig. 2 are based on ref. 18, which used microiontophoresis of glutamate, leading to much slower glutamate concentration time courses at the dendritic NMDA receptors than synaptic release of glutamate would. The time courses of plateaus in Fig. 4 are much more in line with the NMDA plateau durations shown in ref. 21, especially their Figure 2B. These faster NMDA plateaus (or NMDA spikes as they are called in ref. 21) are based on synaptic release of glutamate in vivo, and on the faster NMDA receptor kinetics at physiological temperature compared to the old models with room temperature kinetics used in ref. 18.

      Here are two additional references that the authors might find interesting:

      Fisek et al. 2023 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06007-6 Dudai et al. 2022 https://www.jneurosci.org/content/42/7/1184.full

      We thank the reviewer for the suggested references. The first has been added to the references in the introduction, on l. 28. The second has been added on l. 78.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) In Fig. 3A, we observed some animal pictures, which were never explained in the figurecaption, or text of the manuscript. These pictures were probably explained at the lab meeting, so it is unnecessary to waste effort on these pictures in the manuscript draft.

      We agree with the reviewer; the figures have been removed.

      (2) Figure 1 has not been referenced anywhere in the manuscript text!

      Indeed, this had to be corrected, figure is now references on l. 9.

      (3) Line 45. "[18] triggered two NMDA spikes by glutamate uncaging at the indicated (red,blue) sites". [18] triggered one NMDA spike while recording at three locations simultaneously (two locations in dendrite and one location in the soma).

      The reviewer is correct here. The sentence has now been rephrased to "(ref.) triggered an NMDA spike by glutamate microiontophoresis while recording at the soma and the indicated (red, blue) sites in the dendrite." (l. 49)

      (4) Fig. 2B. The two labels, "Dendrite 2" and "Dendrite 1" incorrectly suggest that two traceswere recorded in two dendrites. These two traces were recorded in the same dendrite.

      We agree with the reviewer; labels have now been changed to "Dendrite site".

      (5) Line 45. "[18] triggered two NMDA spikes by glutamate uncaging at the indicated (red,blue) sites". - - One NMDA spike by "glutamate microiontophoresis".

      This is correct, the phrasing on (l. 50) has been changed accordingly.

      (6) Line 47. "... simulated glutamate releases 50 ms apart in the three dendritic sites indicatedin Figure 2C, thereby triggering three NMDA spikes at those sites. Despite these dendritic spikes being initiated at different times, they still sum in the soma, leading to a sodium spike there (Figure 2E)". A similar experiment has been performed in real cortical neurons (KD Oikonomu et al., 2012, PMID: 22934081), and could potentially be cited here. Briefly, Oikonomou et al. generated two dendritic plateau potentials in two dendritic branches and monitored the summation of these dendritic plateau potentials in the cell body.

      The reference has been added, on l. 54

      (7) Line 63. "We compared the behaviour of our simplified model with that of the full, detailedbiophysical model". Which detailed biophysical model? Please cite here the detailed biophysical model that you used for comparisons with your simplified abstract model.

      The reference to the paper has been added.

      (8) Line 65. "Figure 2F shows that spikes arriving at different times are summed in anintegrate and hold-like manner". In Fig. 2F, I am unable to see that spikes arriving at different times are summed in an integrate and hold-like manner. Which feature of Fig. 2F refers to the "hold-like manner"? Please explain in the manuscript.

      To clarify we have added "Figure 2F, top" in the text (l. 71).

      (9) Figure 2 caption. "(F) The voltage traces of the abstract model, with and without plateaus.Because of the extended time duration of the plateau potentials, they sum accurately to produce a somatic spike". I am unable to understand what an "accurate summation" in Fig. 2 is. Could the authors provide an illustrative example of a situation in which the neuronal potentials DID NOT sum accurately?

      To address this confusion, we have changed the wording to "...they are summed to reach threshold."

      (10) Line 75. "This is an important issue we intend to return to in future work". The authorspersonal plans should not be in the text discussing scientific results.

      We believe it is entirely reasonable to discuss scientific plans that are part of ongoing work, and this is quite common throughout the literature. Nonetheless, we have now reworded this to "This is an important issue for future work." (l. 81)

      (11) In Fig. 4F, the full-line and the dashed-line have not been identified! The readers are leftto guess.

      This has now been addressed both with text inserts in the figure, and specification in the figure caption.

      (12) Line 247. "would amount to scaling up the number of cells in a network to performcomputations that could, in principle, be performed by more robust single units". Did the authors mean to say: "would amount to scaling up the number of cells in a network to perform computations that could, in principle, be performed by a fewer (but more robust) single units"?

      We have replaced the sentence with the reviewer's suggestion (l. 259)

      (13) In the abstract, the authors repeat sentences: "the timescale of dendritic potentialsallows reliable integration of asynchronous inputs" and "nonlinear dendritic plateau potentials allow reliable integration of asynchronous spikes". Besides this being a bad writing style, the authors cannot decide if inputs to the model neuron are asynchronous, or spiking of the model neuron is asynchronous. Are these asynchronous spikes occurring in the neuron experiencing dendritic plateau potentials, or these asynchronous spikes occur in the neuronal network? This confusion of terms and ideas must be removed from the abstract.

      We have rewritten the second sentence, which now reads: "Using this model, we show that long-lived, nonlinear dendritic plateau potentials allow neurons to spike reliably when confronted with asynchronous input spikes."

      (14) In the abstract, the authors claim: "Our results provide empirically testable hypothesesfor the role of dendritic action potentials in cortical function". With great anticipation, I read throughout the manuscript, but I was unable to find one single experimental design that could support the authors' bald statement. In the text of the manuscript, the authors must carefully reveal the precise experimental outline that would test their specific hypothesis, or delete the untrue statement.

      We respectfully challenge the rather critical tone of the reviewer. The central hypothesis that plateaus enable robust summation, and that circuit level computations rely on this is an experimentally testable hypothesis. The precise experimental design of how to test such a hypothesis is always best left to an experimentalist to determine, as there are many possible means of doing this and each will depend on the preparation and methodology at hand. At the same time, we understand that there is an increasing culture of expecting explicit "testable hypotheses" spelled out to the reader. To satisfy this expectation while avoiding overly prescriptive ideas for how future work should proceed, we have now added more explicit descriptions of possible experimental tests in l. 231 and onwards.

      (15) Fig. 2F was submitted for review without a time scale, while at the same time the authorsheavily discuss specific numerical values for time intervals. Namely, the authors instruct readers to pay attention to a 10 ms time constant and 2-3 ms input decay (Fig. 2F), but they do not show the time scale in Fig. 2F.

      "We compared this to a situation where all inputs arrive at a soma with standard LIF dynamics and a 10 ms membrane time constant. This time constant is consistent with the high-conductance state of pyramidal neurons in the cortex [6]: Inputs decay after 2-3 ms, and fail to sum to spike threshold (Figure 2F, lower)".

      The time (and voltage) bars have now been added to Fig. 2F.

      (16) Line 75. "In the scope of what remains here we want to ask if integrate-and-hold isminimally feasible". This reviewer is unable to understand the meaning of the syntaxes "integrate-and-hold" and "minimally feasible" in the context of dendritic integration. This reviewer is worried that the majority of the journal readers would feel exactly the same. To alleviate this problem, the authors should explain both terms right here, in line 77.

      Integrate-and-hold is defined on line 57 (to be exact we write: "We refer to this behavior as “Leaky Integrate-and-Hold” (LIH)." To be more clear we could reuse the acronym LIH here, to emphasise that we are referring to the same thing. By 'minimally feasible' we mean biologically plausible given assumptions that are not strong. Can use another term, e.g. "biologically plausible under lenient assumptions".

      To address this point, we have rephrased the sentence as "In the scope of what remains here we want to ask if Leaky-Integrate-and-Hold (LIH) can easily and plausibly facilitate network computations with spikes." (l. 81), repeating the LIH definition.

      (17) Line 91. "Spikes arriving even slightly out of sync with each other introduces noise in themembrane potential ..." Introduce.

      The sentence has been fixed using the reviewer's correction.

      (18) The caption of the Fig. 3B was submitted for review without any explanation of thenormalization procedure used. Also, in the caption of the same figure, one cannot find explanation of the light-gray area surrounding the black curves. Also, the readers are left to wonder how the results of a simulation could possibly be greater than 1 in some simulation trials.

      We have added a description of the normalization and the shaded area to the caption of Fig. 3B.

      (19) Line 117. "We assumed that inputs to a network arrive at the dendrites within some timewindow, and their combined depolarisations are either sufficient to either elicit a dendritic spike or not, as shown in Figure 3". We could potentially compact the current text by deleting one instance of "either".

      We agree this is better writing; one of the occurrences of 'either' has been removed.

      (20) Line 127. "where incoming connections can be represented with a 1 (a spike arrives)..."Did you mean "a presynaptic spike arrives"?

      The sentence has been rewritten following the suggestion.

      (21) Line 134. "with each unit only having ..." Dendrite can be a unit. Dendritic spine can be aunit. Did you mean "with each unit (i.e. neuron) having ..."

      We have incorporated the suggestion.

      (22) Fig. 4, Caption. "Each point is a 2D input vector x, the colors represent the differentclasses". An effort was made to introduce 3 different classes. But then, no mention of "classes" thereafter. The three input vectors, mentioned in Line 170, perhaps represent the remnants of the class concept mentioned in the previous paragraph.

      We have now rewritten the sentence beginning with "These three input vectors ..." on l. 182 to emphasise that a correct answer means a correct classification.

      (23) Line 152. "The 2D input points were first projected onto a binary feature space, to obtain13D binary vectors". Did you mean to say: "The 2D input points (three classes, Fig. A) were first projected onto a binary feature space, to obtain three binary vectors; each 13D binary vector responding to a specific class".

      The sentence has been replaced with the reviewer's suggestion (l. 159).

      (24) Line 163. "Because our focus is to account for how transient signals can be summed andthresholded robustly, we are assuming that inhibition is implicitly accounted for in the lumped abstraction". Could you please explain your two ideas: [1] "inhibition is implicitly accounted for" and [2] "lumped abstraction", because this reviewer did not get neither idea.

      The reviewer is right that as it stood, the sentence was unclear. To clarify the point we have decided to expand upon that sentence and break it out as an individual paragraph (starting l. 171).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer 1:

      This study is one in a series of excellent papers by the Forstmann group focusing on the ability of fMRI to reliably detect activity in small subcortical nuclei - in this case, specifically those purportedly involved in the hyper- and indirect inhibitory basal ganglia pathways. I have been very fond of this work for a long time, beginning with the demonstration of De Hollander, Forstmann et al. (HBM 2017) of the fact that 3T fMRI imaging (as well as many 7T imaging sequences) do not afford sufficient signal to noise ratio to reliably image these small subcortical nuclei. This work has done a lot to reshape my view of seminal past studies of subcortical activity during inhibitory control, including some that have several thousand citations.

      Comments on revised version:

      This is my second review of this article, now entitled "Multi-study fMRI outlooks on subcortical BOLD responses in the stop-signal paradigm" by Isherwood and colleagues.

      The authors have been very responsive to the initial round of reviews.

      I still think it would be helpful to see a combined investigation of the available 7T data, just to really drive the point home that even with the best parameters and a multi-study sample size, fMRI cannot detect any increases in BOLD activity on successful stop compared to go trials. However, I agree with the authors that these "sub samples still lack the temporal resolution seemingly required for looking at the processes in the SST." As such, I don't have any more feedback.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive feedback, and for their thorough and constructive comments on our initial submission. 

      Reviewer 2:

      This work aggregates data across 5 openly available stopping studies (3 at 7 tesla and 2 at 3 tesla) to evaluate activity patterns across the common contrasts of Failed Stop (FS) > Go, FS > stop success (SS), and SS > Go. Previous work has implicated a set of regions that tend to be positively active in one or more of these contrasts, including the bilateral inferior frontal gyrus, preSMA, and multiple basal ganglia structures. However, the authors argue that upon closer examination, many previous papers have not found subcortical structures to be more active on SS than FS trials, bringing into question whether they play an essential role in (successful) inhibition. In order to evaluate this with more data and power, the authors aggregate across five datasets and find many areas that are *more* active for FS than SS, including bilateral preSMA, GPE, thalamus, and VTA. They argue that this brings into question the role of these areas in inhibition, based upon the assumption that areas involved in inhibition should be more active on successful stop than failed stop trials, not the opposite as they observed.

      Since the initial submission, the authors have improved their theoretical synthesis and changed their SSRT calculation method to the more appropriate integration method with replacement for go omissions. They have also done a better job of explaining how these fMRI results situate within the broader response inhibition literature including work using other neuroscience methods.

      They have also included a new Bayes Factor analysis. In the process of evaluating this new analysis, I recognized the following comments that I believe justify additional analyses and discussion:

      First, if I understand the author's pipeline, for the ROI analyses it is not appropriate to run FSL's FILM method on the data that were generated by repeating the same time series across all voxels of an ROI. FSL's FILM uses neighboring voxels in parts of the estimation to stabilize temporal correlation and variance estimates and was intended and evaluated for use on voxelwise data. Instead, I believe it would be more appropriate to average the level 1 contrast estimates over the voxels of each ROI to serve as the dependent variables in the ROI analysis.

      We agree with the reviewer’s assertion that this approach could create estimation problems. However, in this instance, we turned off the spatial smoothing procedure that FSL’s FILM normally uses for estimating the amount of autocorrelation – thus, the autocorrelation was estimated based on each voxel’s timeseries individually. We also confirmed that all voxels within each ROI had identical statistics, which would not be the case if the autocorrelation estimates differed per voxel. We have added the following text to the Methods section under fMRI analysis: ROI-wise:

      Note that the standard implementation of FSL FILM uses a spatial smoothing procedure prior to estimating temporal autocorrelations which is suitable for use only on voxelwise data (Woolrich et al., 2001). We therefore turned this spatial smoothing procedure off and instead estimated autocorrelation using each voxel’s individual timeseries.

      Second, for the group-level ROI analyses there seems to be inconsistencies when comparing the z-statistics (Figure 3) to the Bayes Factors (Figure 4) in that very similar zstatistics have very different Bayes Factors within the same contrast across different brain areas, which seemed surprising (e.g., a z of 6.64 has a BF of .858 while another with a z of 6.76 has a BF of 3.18). The authors do briefly discuss some instances in the frequentist and Bayesian results differ, but they do not ever explain by similar z-stats yield very different bayes factors for a given contrast across different brain areas. I believe a discussion of this would be useful.

      We thank the reviewer for their keen observation, and agree that this is indeed a strange inconsistency. Upon reviewing this issue, we came across an error in our analysis pipeline, which led to inconsistent scaling of the parameter estimates between datasets. We corrected this error, and included new tables (Figures 3, 4, and Supplementary Figure 5) which now show improved correspondence between the frequentist results from FSL and the Bayesian results.

      We have updated the text of the Results section accordingly. In this revision, we have also updated all BFs to be expressed in log<sub>10</sub> form, to ensure consistency for the reader. Updates to the manuscript are given below.

      Results: Behavioural Analyses:

      Consistent with the assumptions of the standard horse-race model (Logan & Cowan, 1984), the median failed stop RT is significantly faster within all datasets than the median go RT (Aron_3T: p < .001, BF<sub>log10</sub> = 2.77; Poldrack_3T: p < .001, BF<sub>log10</sub> = 23.49; deHollander_7T: p < .001, B BF<sub>log10</sub> = 8.88; Isherwood_7T: p < .001, BF<sub>log10</sub> = 2.95; Miletic_7T: p = .0019, BF<sub>log10</sub> = 1.35). Mean SSRTs were calculated using the integration method and are all within normal range across the datasets.

      Results: ROI-wise GLMS: 

      To further statistically compare the functional results between datasets, we then fit a set of GLMs using the canonical HRF with a temporal derivative to the timeseries extracted from each ROI. Below we show the results of the group-level ROI analyses over all datasets using z-scores (Fig. 3) and log-transformed Bayes Factors (BF; Fig. 4). Note that these values were time-locked to the onset of the go signal. See Supplementary Figure 5 for analyses where the FS and SS trials were time-locked to the onset of the stop signal. To account for multiple comparisons, threshold values were set using the FDR method for the frequentist analyses. 

      For the FS > GO contrast, the frequentist analysis found significant positive z-scores in all regions bar left and right M1, and the left GPi. The right M1 showed a significant negative z-score; left M1 and GPi showed no significant effect in this contrast. The BFs showed moderate or greater evidence for the alternative hypothesis in bilateral IFG, preSMA, caudate, STN, Tha, and VTA, and right GPe. Bilateral M1 and left GPi showed moderate evidence for the null. Evidence for other ROIs was anecdotal (see Fig 4). 

      For the FS > SS contrast, we found significant positive z-scores in in all regions except the left GPi. The BFs showed moderate or greater evidence for right IFG, right GPi, and bilateral M1, preSMA, Tha, and VTA, and moderate evidence for the null in left GPi. Evidence for other ROIs was anecdotal (see Fig 4). 

      For the SS > GO contrast we found a significant positive z-scores in bilateral IFG, right Tha, and right VTA, and significant negative z-scores in bilateral M1, left GPe, right GPi, and bilateral putamen. The BFs showed moderate or greater evidence for the alternative hypothesis in bilateral M1 and right IFG, and moderate or greater evidence for the null in left preSMA, bilateral caudate, bilateral GPe, left GPi, bilateral putamen, and bilateral SN. Evidence for other ROIs was anecdotal (see Fig 4). 

      Although the frequentist and Bayesian analyses are mostly in line with one another, there were also some differences, particularly in the contrasts with FS. In the FS > GO contrast, the interpretation of the GPi, GPe, putamen, and SN differ. The frequentist models suggests significantly increased activation for these regions (except left GPi) in FS trials. In the Bayesian model, this evidence was found to be anecdotal in the SN and right GPi, and moderate in the right GPe, while finding anecdotal or moderate evidence for the null hypothesis in the left GPe, left GPi, and putamen. For the FS > SS contrast, the frequentist analysis showed significant activation in all regions except for the left GPi, whereas the Bayesian analysis found this evidence to be only anecdotal, or in favour of the null for a large number of regions (see Fig 4 for details).  

      Since the Bayes Factor analysis appears to be based on repeated measures ANOVA and the z-statistics are from Flame1+2, the BayesFactor analysis model does not pair with the frequentist analysis model very cleanly. To facilitate comparison, I would recommend that the same repeated measures ANOVA model should be used in both cases. My reading of the literature is that there is no need to be concerned about any benefits of using Flame being lost, since heteroscedasticity does not impact type I errors and will only potentially impact power.

      We agree with the reviewer that there are differences between the two analyses. The advantage of the z-statistics from FSL’s flame 1+2 is that these are based on a multi-level model in which measurement error in the first level (i.e., subject level) is taken into account in the group-level analysis. This is an advantage especially in the current paper since the datasets differ strongly in the degree of measurement error, both due to the differences in field strength and in the number of trials (and volumes). Although multilevel Bayesian approaches exist, none (except by use of custom code) allow for convolution with the HRF of a design matrix like typical MRI analyses. Thus, we extracted the participant-level parameter estimates (converted to percent signal change), and only estimated the dataset and group level parameters with the BayesFactor package. As such, this approach effectively ignores measurement error. However, despite these differences in the analyses, the general conclusions from the Bayesian and frequentist analyses are very aligned after we corrected for the error described above. The Bayesian results are more conservative, which can be explained by the unfiltered participantlevel measurement error increasing the uncertainty of the group-level parameter estimates. At worst, the BFs represent the lower bounds of the true effect, and are thus safe to interpret. 

      We have also included an additional figure (Supplementary Figure 7) that shows the correspondence between the BFs and the z scores. 

      Though frequentist statistics suggest that many basal ganglia structures are significantly more active in the FS > SS contrast (see 2nd row of Figure 3), the Bayesian analyses are much more equivocal, with no basal ganglia areas showing Log10BF > 1 (which would be indicative of strong evidence). The authors suggest that "the frequentist and Bayesian analyses are monst in line with one another", but in my view, this frequentist vs. Bayesian analysis for the FS > SS contrast seems to suggest substantially different conclusions. More specifically, the frequentist analyses suggest greater activity in FS than SS in most basal ganglia ROIs (all but 2), but the Bayesian analysis did not find *any* basal ganglia ROIs with strong evidence for the alternative hypothesis (or a difference), and several with more evidence for the null than the alternative hypothesis. This difference between the frequentist and Bayesian analyses seems to warrant discussion, but unless I overlooked it, the Bayesian analyses are not mentioned in the Discussion at all. In my view, the frequentist analyses are treated as the results, and the Bayesian analyses were largely ignored.

      The original manuscript only used frequentist statistics to assess the results, and then added Bayesian analyses later in response to a reviewer comment. We agree that the revised discussion did not consider the Bayesian results in enough detail, and have updated the manuscript throughout to more thoroughly incorporate the Bayesian analyses and improve overall readability. 

      In the Methods section, we have updated the fMRI analysis – general linear models (GLMs): ROIwise GLMs section to more thoroughly incorporate the Bayesian analyses as follows: 

      We compared the full model (H1) comprising trial type, dataset and subject as predictors to the null model (H0) comprising only the dataset and subject as predictor. Datasets and subjects were modeled as random factors in both cases. Since effect sizes in fMRI analyses are typically small, we set the scaling parameter on the effect size prior for fixed effects to 0.25, instead of the default of 0.5, which assumes medium effect sizes (note that the same qualitative conclusions would be reached with the default prior setting; Rouder et al., 2009). We divided the resultant BFs from the full model by the null model to provide evidence for or against a difference in beta weights for each trial type. To interpret the BFs, we used a modified version of Jeffreys’ scale (Andraszewicz et al., 2014; Jeffreys, 1939). To facilitate interpretation of the BFs, we converted them to the logarithmic scale. The approximate conversion between the interpretation of logarithmic BFs and standard interpretation on the adjusted Jeffreys’ scale can be found in Table 3.   

      The Bayesian results are also more incorporated into the Discussion as follows: 

      Evidence for the role of the basal ganglia in response inhibition comes from a multitude of studies citing significant activation of either the SN, STN or GPe during successful inhibition trials (Aron, 2007; Aron & Poldrack, 2006; Mallet et al., 2016; Nambu et al., 2002; Zhang & Iwaki, 2019). Here, we re-examined activation patterns in the subcortex across five different datasets, identifying differences in regional activation using both frequentist and Bayesian approaches. Broadly, the frequentist approach found significant differences between most ROIs in FS>GO and FS>SS contrasts, and limited differences in the SS>GO contrast. The Bayesian results were more conservative; while many of the ROIs showed moderate or strong evidence, some with small but significant z scores were considered only anecdotal by the Bayesian analysis. In our discussion, where the findings between analytical approaches differ, we focus mainly on the more conservative Bayesian analysis.

      Here, our multi-study results found limited evidence that the canonical inhibition pathways (the indirect and hyperdirect pathways) are recruited during successful response inhibition in the SST. We expected to find increased activation in the nodes of the indirect pathway (e.g., the preSMA, GPe, STN, SN, GPi, and thalamus) during successful stop compared to go or failed stop trials. We found strong evidence for activation pattern differences in the preSMA, thalamus, and right GPi between the two stop types (failed and successful), and limited evidence, or evidence in favour of the null hypothesis, in the other regions, such as the GPe, STN, and SN. However, we did find recruitment of subcortical nodes (VTA, thalamus, STN, and caudate), as well as preSMA and IFG activation during failed stop trials. We suggest that these results indicate that failing to inhibit one’s action is a larger driver of the utilisation of these nodes than action cancellation itself. 

      These results are in contention to many previous fMRI studies of the stop signal task as well as research using other measurement techniques such as local field potential recordings, direct subcortical stimulation, and animal studies, where activation of particularly the STN has consistently been observed (Alegre et al., 2013b; Aron & Poldrack, 2006; Benis et al., 2014; Fischer et al., 2017; Mancini et al., 2019; Wessel et al., 2016).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study analyzed biomarker data from 28 subjects with geographic atrophy (GA) in a Phase I/II clinical trial of PPY988, a subretinal AAV2 complement factor I (CFI) gene therapy, to evaluate pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics. Post-treatment, a 2-fold increase in the vitreous humor (VH) FI was observed, correlating with a reduction in FB breakdown product Ba but minimal changes in other complement factors. The aqueous humor (AH) was found to be an unreliable proxy for VH in assessing complement activation. In vitro assays showed that the increase in FI had a minor effect on the complement amplification loop compared to the more potent C3 inhibitor pegcetacoplan. These findings suggest that PPY988 may not provide enough FI protein to effectively modulate complement activation and slow GA progression, highlighting the need for a thorough biomarker review to determine optimal dosing in future studies.

      Strengths:

      This manuscript provides critical data on the efficacy of gene therapy for the eye, specifically introducing complement FI expression. It presents the results from a halted clinical trial, making sharing this data essential for understanding the outcomes of this gene therapy approach. The findings offer valuable insights and lessons for future gene therapy attempts in similar contexts.

      Weaknesses:

      No particular weaknesses. The study was carefully performed and limitations are discussed.

      I have just some concerns about the methodology used. The authors use the MILLIPLEX assays, which allow for multiplexed detection of complement proteins and they mention extensive validation. How are the measurements with this assay correlating with gold standard methods? Is the specificity and the expected normal ranges preserved with this assay? This also stands for the Olink assay. Some of the proteins are measured by both assay and/or by standard ELISA. How do these measurements correlate?

      The authors thank the reviewer for the positive response. Regarding the ELISA assays used to measure the array of complement proteins described, these were extensively validated for the following parameters: specificity, intra-assay and inter-assay precision, accuracy, stability, reference range, and parallelism. All assays were validated in plasma, vitreous and aqueous humour. Due to the limited volume and availability of ocular fluids from individuals in the study, validation in vitreous and aqueous matrices was performed using a pool of several samples from post-mortem donors. At the time this study was initiated, the Millipore Luminex complement panels and the Quidel C3a and Ba EIA were the most sensitive assays and the only commercially available options capable of measuring the proteins of interest in the context of limited vitreous and aqueous humor sample. The concentrations measured were observed at similar ranges as those published in the literature using assays in distinct patient populations e.g. in (Mandava et al, Invest Ophthalmol Vis Sci, 2020).

      Measurements from vitreous and aqueous from subject samples were deemed reportable if they were within the quantifiable ranges defined for these sample types during the validation (coefficient of variation of 20%, or 30% when results were below the lower limit of quantification but above limit of detection). Notably, given the limited amount of biomarker data due to small sample size, we share results from outlier biomarker measurements, to illustrate the heterogeneity in sample quality. We further publish plasma sample biomarker results in supplemental table 5 wherein complement protein concentrations can be observed and compared to normal ranges in the literature.

      Adding confidence to the robustness of our assays was the observation that some of the complement proteins quantified by standard assay (e.g. plate and bead-based ELISAs) were also measured by the OLINK assay, and there was a general trend observed for positive correlation between results from both assays for FI levels post-treatment. However, we did not provide detailed correlative statistical analyses for further complement proteins as OLINK findings were deemed highly exploratory and hypothesis generating, and because the OLINK assay produced normalised results which are challenging to directly compare to ELISA results that were absolute.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The results presented demonstrate that AAV2-CFI gene therapy delivers long-term and marginally higher FI protein in vitreous humor that results in a concomitant reduction in the FB activation product Ba. However, the lack of clinical efficacy in the phase I/II study, possibly due to lower in vitro potency when compared to currently approved pegcetacoplan, raises important considerations for the utility of this therapeutic approach. Despite the early termination of the PPY988 clinical development program, the study achieved significant milestones, including the implementation of subretinal gene therapy delivery in older adults, complement biomarker comparison between serial vitreous humor and aqueous humor samples and vitreous humor proteomic assessment via Olink.

      Strengths:

      Long-term augmentation of FI protein in vitreous humor over 96 weeks and reduction of FB breakdown product Ba in vitreous humor suggests modulation of the complement system. Developed a novel in vitro assay suggesting FI's ability to reduce C3 convertase activity is weaker than pegcetacoplan and FH and may suggest a higher dose of FI will be required for clinical efficacy. Warn of the poor correlation between vitreous humor and aqueous humor biomarkers and suggest aqueous humor may not be a reliable proxy for vitreous humor with regard to complement activation/inhibition studies.

      Weaknesses:

      The vitrectomy required for the subretinal route of administration causes a long-term loss of total protein and may influence the interpretation of complement biomarker results even with normalization. The modified in vitro assay of complement activation suggests a several hundred-fold increase in FI protein is required to significantly affect C3a levels. Interestingly, the in vitro assay demonstrates 100% inhibition of C3a with pegcetacoplan and FH therapeutics, but only a 50% reduction with FI even at the highest concentrations tested. This observation suggests FI may not be rate-limiting for negative complement regulation under the in vitro conditions tested and potentially in the eye. It is unclear if pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic properties in aqueous humor and vitreous humor compartments are reliable predictors of FI level/activity after subretinal delivery AAV2-CFI gene therapy.

      The authors thank the reviewer for the positive response and we agree that a limitation of the biomarker strategy for ocular gene therapy delivered to the retinal tissues is inferring PK/PD from vitreous and aqueous samples, which are the fluid sample compartments accessible from subjects available to measure molecular treatment response. We agree that these compartments may not accurately represent sub-retinal and tissue level complement turnover. In the discussion, line 508, we state: ‘Overall, the data suggests that fully functional FI is being secreted into the VH, but the regulatory effects on the level of Ba may be representative of convertase formation in the VH and not the macula retina/RPE nor the choroid. To validate this hypothesis, one approach would be to conduct vitreal sampling using an effective drug targeting C3 for GA in a larger cohort’.

      However, the observation of elevation of FI in VH (and AH) post treatment, and changes in levels of downstream complement proteins that align with prior knowledge of control of alternative pathway activation, is compelling evidence that these measurements reflect modest but direct consequences of an FI-gene therapy that was delivered to the subretinal space. We add to the discussion, line 479: ‘the findings of elevated FI in the VH after sub-retinally delivered CFI gene therapy and changes in complement pathway proteins post-treatment build confidence that VH matrix is at least partially reflecting the complement system at the retinal layers and treatment site, and is a valid biomarker for PK/PD insights in response to treatment.’

      Furthermore, the observation of moderately raised FI levels in modelled VH post treatment being insufficient to control CS activation in vitro accords with the lack of clinical response observed at phase II. We note that measuring FI and complement biomarkers in retinal tissues from treated eyes at post-mortem would be one way to explore the PK/PD effects from AAV2-FI gene therapy.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Hallam et al describes the analysis of various biomarkers in patients undergoing complement factor I supplementation treatment (PPY988 gene therapy) as part of the FOCUS Phase I/II clinical trial. The authors used validated methods (multiplexed assays and OLINK proteomics) for measuring multiple soluble complement proteins in the aqueous humour (AH) and vitreous humour (VH) of 28 patients over a series of time points, up to and including 96 weeks. Based on biomarker comparisons, the levels of FI synthesised by PPY988 were believed to be insufficient to achieve the desired level of complement inhibition. Subsequent comparative experiments showed that PPY988-delivered FI was much less efficacious than Pegceptacoplan (FDA-approved complement inhibitor under the name SYFORVE) when tested in an artificial VH matrix.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is well written with data clearly presented and appropriate statistics used for the analysis itself. It's great to see data from real clinical samples that can help support future studies and therapeutic design. The identification that complement biomarker levels present in the AH do not represent the levels found in the VH is an important finding for the field, given the number of complement-targeting therapies in development and the desperate need for good biomarkers for target engagement. This study also provides a wealth of baseline complement protein measurements in both human AH and VH (and companion measurements in plasma) that will prove useful for future studies.

      Weaknesses:

      Perhaps the conclusions drawn regarding the lack of observed efficacy are not fully justified. The authors focus on the hypothesis that not enough FI was synthesised in these patients receiving the PPY988 gene therapy, suggesting a delivery/transduction/expression issue. But beyond rare CFI genetic variants, most genetic associations with AMD imply that it is a FI-cofactor disease. A hypothesis supported by the authors' own experiments when they supplement their artificial VH matrix with FH and achieve a significantly greater breakdown of C3b than achieved with PPY988 treatment alone. Justification around doubling FI levels driving complement turnover refers to studies conducted in blood, which has an entirely different complement protein profile than VH. In Supplemental Table 5 we see there is approx. 10-fold more FH than FI (533ug/ml vs 50ug/ml respectively) so increasing FI levels will have a direct effect. Yet in Supplemental Table 3 we see there is more FI than FH in VH (608ng/ml vs 466ng/ml respectively). Therefore, adding more FI without more co-factors would have a very limited effect. Surely this demonstrates that the study was delivering the wrong payload, i.e. FI, which hit a natural ceiling of endogenous co-factors within the eye?

      See response to reviewer 3’s review after reviewer 3 recommendations section below.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors present strong evidence using validated complement biomarker assays and comprehensive proteomic profiling that support their findings. The presentation of complement biomarker data in vitreous humor and aqueous humor after FI augmentation is presented in a clear and concise format. The direct comparison of complement biomarkers in vitreous humor and aqueous humor from the same patients and demonstrating similarities and differences is important for the nascent complement gene therapy field. Developing a novel in vitro complement model and comparing pegcetacoplan, FH, and FI inhibitors provides the field with a valuable assay to benchmark other complement therapeutics. As currently designed, the in vitro assay supports why FI augmentation did not contribute to clinical success. It also suggests that non-physiological concentrations of FI protein (over 100 µg/mL) maximally inhibit C3a signal by ~50%, whereas both pegcetacoplan and FH reduce the signal by 100%. Does this suggest that CFI is not an appropriate therapeutic target to control complement overactivation in the eye?

      We agree with the reviewer that the new data from the novel in vitro assay coupled with the clinical findings from the phase II gene therapy trial does now suggest FI is less attractive as a therapeutic target for controlling complement activation in the retinal tissues of subjects with Geographic Atrophy.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I think the authors have done a great job collecting and analysing these clinical samples and elucidating the baseline complement protein profile in both the AH and VH. I only have minimal suggested changes.

      Perhaps a more direct discussion around the limitations of adding more FI into environments where there is no excess of FI-cofactors present? And a discussion around the limitations of VH (and VA for that matter) biomarker sampling for a disease that primarily affects the neurosensory retina and outer blood/retinal barrier: perhaps the landscape of complement proteins is different yet again (although, admittedly, impossible to sample in a patient)? Finally, would it not have been better to perform complement activation experiments using the VH of treated patients directly rather than creating an artificial VH matrix (there may, or may not, be a couple of things in human VH that directly affect complement turnover...)?

      We thank the reviewer for the supportive comments. This study is the first to describe FI and FH levels and respective ratios in vitreous humour (plus aqueous and plasma) from GA subjects, before and after sub-retinal gene therapy. It is compelling to observe that in the VH the levels of FI are greater than FH, the primary fluid phase co-factor for FI enzymatic activity. This new information does indeed argue against further FI supplementation (using gene therapy) being of added benefit to controlling the complement system in the broader population in individuals with Geographic Atrophy. We note that at the start of the clinical development of GT005/PPY988 AAV2-FI gene therapy, there was limited information on FI and FH levels in AMD in ocular fluids to inform the pharmacodynamics of complement activation. Now, by running the FOCUS phase I clinical trial and measuring the complement biomarker data using validated assays we have added to our understanding on the levels and ratio of FI to FH and other complement proteins in a larger number of GA subjects’ ocular samples.  We report the levels of complement proteins measured in ocular and systemic samples, to show the ranges and also the differences in ratios between the different matrices.   

      Regarding the statement that FI supplementation could likely be ineffective due to limited FH cofactor; FH is not the only co-factor that FI may partner with at cell surfaces to become enzymatically active (others include MCP (CD46) and CR1 (CD35), although the latter is known to be of limited expression in the eye), as such, it is certainly true that other proteins may be present in the tissue altering the kinetics of FI’s activity after sub-retinal gene-therapy. In addition, the ratio between FI and FH detected in the VH may not be the same as in retinal tissue. As such, we agree that drawing insights from biomarkers in the VH may not fully reflect the disease processes and treatment response at the retinal cell layers, but it is the closest fluid sample available to sample tissue released soluble proteins. We acknowledge that VH biomarkers will not fully capture retinal disease processes and treatment responses, but due to their proximity, will reflect retina-released soluble proteins. The findings of elevated FI in the VH after sub-retinally delivered CFI gene therapy and changes in complement pathway proteins post-treatment build confidence that VH matrix is at least partially reflecting the complement system at the retinal layers and treatment site, and is a valid biomarker for PK/PD insights in response to treatment. We agree modelling different inhibitor effects on complement activation directly using subject’s vitreous would be informative, but this was not possible due to the limitations of very small sample volume.

      We add several sentences to the discussion regarding the points above. Line 473: ‘Notably, that FI does not reduce C3a breakdown to baseline even at supermolecular concentrations suggests cofactor limitation that might be more pronounced in VH given FH is not in excess of FI as is the case in blood 27. Moreover, there are additional cell-bound cofactors for FI that may be present in retinal tissue that are not present in the VH and could further alter the kinetics of the assay, such as MCP (CD46) albeit with disease related changes observed 37. However, the findings of elevated FI in the VH after sub-retinally delivered CFI gene therapy and changes in complement pathway proteins post-treatment build confidence that VH matrix is at least partially reflecting the complement system at the retinal layers and treatment site, and is a valid biomarker for PK/PD insights in response to treatment.’

      Minor comments:

      Line 237: Missing parenthesis at the end of the sentence

      Manuscript updated.

      Line 435: Missing secondary parenthesis after .....Figure 3A)......

      Manuscript updated.

      Line 536: I don't think suggesting the addition of FHR proteins into the neurosensory retina/VH is such a good idea

      The reference to FHRs has been clarified in the manuscript, line 558. The authors note that FHR dimerization domains have been engineered to dimerize Factor H constructs increasing half-life and potency for drugs currently in development.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Chlamydia spp. has a biphasic developmental cycle consisting of an extracellular, infectious form called an elementary body (EB) and an intracellular, replicative form known as a reticular body (RB). The structural stability of EBs is maintained by extensive cross-linking of outer membrane proteins while the outer membrane proteins of RBs are in a reduced state. The overall redox state of EBs is more oxidized than RBs. The authors propose that the redox state may be a controlling factor in the developmental cycle. To test this, alkyl hydroperoxide reductase subunit C (ahpC) was overexpressed or knocked down to examine effects on developmental gene expression. KD of ahpC induced increased expression of EB-specific genes and accelerated EB production. Conversely, overexpression of ahpC delayed differentiation to EBs. The results suggest that chlamydial redox state may play a role in differentiation.

      Strengths:

      Uses modern genetic tools to explore the difficult area of temporal gene expression throughout the chlamydial developmental cycle.

      Weaknesses:

      The environmental signals triggering ahpC expression/activity are not determined.

      Thank you for your comments. Our data and those of others have shown that ahpC is expressed as a mid-developmental cycle gene (i.e., when RBs predominate in the population). This is true of most chlamydial genes, and the factors that determine developmental expression are not fully understood. As we noted in the Discussion, Chlamydia lacks AhpF/D orthologs, so it is not clear how AhpC activity is regulated. Related to determining environmental signals that trigger activity of AhpC, then this is a non-trivial issue in an obligate intracellular bacterium. Our assumption is that AhpC is constitutively active and that the increasing metabolic production of ROS eventually overcomes the innate (and stochastic) activity of AhpC to handle it, hence the threshold hypothesis. Importantly, the stochasticity is consistent with what we know about secondary differentiation in Chlamydia. We have tried to clarify these points in the Discussion.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The factors that influence the differentiation of EBs and RBs during Chlamydial development are not clearly understood. A previous study had shown a redox oscillation during the Chlamydial developmental cycle. Based on this observation, the authors hypothesize that the bacterial redox state may play a role in regulating the differentiation in Chlamydia. To test their hypothesis, they make knock-down and overexpression strains of the major ROS regulator, ahpC. They show that the knock-down of ahpC leads to a significant increase in ROS levels leading to an increase in the production of elementary bodies and overexpression leads to a decrease in EB production likely caused by a decrease in oxidation. From their observations, they present an interesting model wherein an increase in oxidation favors the production of EBs.

      Major concern:

      In the absence of proper redox potential measurements, it is not clear if what they observe is a general oxidative stress response, especially when the knock-down of ahpC leads to a significant increase in ROS levels. Direct redox potential measurement in the ahpC overexpression and knock-down cells is required to support the model. This can be done using the roGFP-based measurements mentioned in the Wang et al. 2014 study cited by the authors.

      Thank you for this suggestion. It is definitely something that we are looking to implement. However, our current vectors don’t allow for roGFP2 in combination with inducible expression of a gene of interest. We will need to completely redesign our vectors, and, in Chlamydia, the validation of such new vectors together with ahpC OE or KD may literally take a year or longer.

      In lieu of this, we used the CellRox redox reactive dye to image live chlamydiae during normal growth or ahpC KD. During ahpC KD, these organisms are clearly much brighter than the control, uninduced conditions. These data are included as new Figure 5 to go along with the data we previously reported from the plate reader measurements. These data also clearly indicate that the readings we observed are from Chlamydia and not the host cell.

      As far as a general oxidative stress response, Chlamydia lacks any transcriptional regulators akin to OxyR. The response we’ve measured, earlier expression of genes associated with secondary differentiation, would be an odd stress response not consistent with a focused program to respond to oxidative stress. We added new RNAseq data further showing this effect of a global earlier increase in late gene transcripts.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The study reports clearly on the role of the AhpC protein as an antioxidant factor in Chlamydia trachomatis and speculates on the role of AhpC as an indirect regulator of developmental transcription induced by redox stress in this differentiating obligate intracellular bacterium.

      Strengths:

      The question posed and the concluding model about redox-dependent differentiation in chlamydia is interesting and highly relevant. This work fits with other propositions in which redox changes have been reported during bacterial developmental cycles, potentially as triggers, but have not been cited (examples PMID: 2865432, PMID: 32090198, PMID: 26063575). Here, AhpC over-expression is shown to protect Chlamydia towards redox stress imposed by H2O2, CHP, TBHP, and PN, while CRISPRi-mediated depletion of AhpC curbed intracellular replication and resulted in increased ROS levels and sensitivity to oxidizing agents. Importantly, the addition of ROS scavengers mitigated the growth defect caused by AhpC depletion. These results clearly establish the role of AhpC affects the redox state and growth in Ct (with the complicated KO genetics and complementation that are very nicely done).

      Weaknesses:

      However, with respect to the most important implication and claims of this work, the role of redox in controlling the chlamydial developmental cycle rather than simply being a correlation/passenger effect, I am less convinced about the impact of this work. First, the study is largely observational and does not resolve how this redox control of the cell cycle could be achieved, whereas in the case of _Caulobacte_r, a clear molecular link between DNA replication and redox has been proposed. How would progressive oxidation in RBs eventually trigger the secondary developmental genes to induce EB differentiation? Is there an OxyR homolog that could elicit this change and why would the oxidation stress in RBs gradually accumulate during growth despite the presence of AhpC? In other words, the role of AhpC is simply to delay or dampen the redox stress response until the trigger kicks in, again, what is the trigger? Is this caused by increasing oxidative respiration of RBs in the inclusion? But what determines the redox threshold?

      Thank you for your comments. As the reviewer notes, our work clearly demonstrates that AhpC acts as an antioxidant in Chlamydia trachomatis. Further, we have shown that transcription of the late cycle genes is altered upon altered activity of AhpC, which acts as a proof of concept that redox is (one of) the key factor(s) controlling developmental cycle progression in Chlamydia. Our new RNAseq data indicate that a broad swath of well characterized late genes is activated, which contradicts the argument that what we’ve measured is a stress response (unless activation of late genes in Chlamydia is generally a stress response (not the case based on other models of stress) – in which case we would not be able to differentiate between these effects). We hypothesize that ROS production from the metabolic activities of RBs serves as a signal to trigger secondary differentiation from RBs to EBs. How this exact threshold is determined is currently unknown as Chlamydia does not have any annotated homolog for OxyR. It is beyond the scope of the present manuscript to identify and then characterize what specific factor(s) control(s) this response. We fully anticipate that multiple factors are likely impacted by increasing oxidation, so dissecting the exact contributions of any one factor will represent (a) potential separate manuscript(s). Nonetheless, this remains an overarching goal of the lab yet remains challenging given the obligate intracellular nature of Chlamydia. Strategies that would work in a model system, like Caulobacter, that can be grown in axenic media are not easily implemented in Chlamydia.

      As we noted above in another response, ahpC is transcribed as a mid-cycle gene with a peak of transcription corresponding to the RB phase of growth. We hypothesize that the gradual accumulation of ROS from metabolic activity will eventually supercede the ability of AhpC to detoxify it. This would result in any given RB asynchronously and stochastically passing this threshold (and triggering EB formation), which is consistent with what we know about secondary differentiation in Chlamydia.

      I also find the experiment with Pen treatment to have little predictive power. The fact that transcription just proceeds when division is blocked is not unprecedented. This also happens during the Caulobacter cell cycle when FtsZ is depleted for most developmental genes, except for those that are activated upon completion of the asymmetric cell division and that is dependent on the completion of compartmentalization. This is a smaller subset of developmental genes in caulobacter, but if there is a similar subset that depends on division on chlamydia and if these are affected by redox as well, then the argument about the interplay between developmental transcription and redox becomes much stronger and the link more intriguing. Another possibility to strengthen the study is to show that redox-regulated genes are under the direct control of chlamydial developmental regulators such as Euo, HctA, or others and at least show dual regulation by these inputs -perhaps the feed occurs through the same path.

      Comparisons to other model systems are generally of limited value with Chlamydia. All chlamydial cell division genes are mid-cycle (RB-specific) genes, just like ahpC. There is no evidence of a redox-responsive transcription factor (whether EUO, HctA, or another) that activates or represses a subset of genes in Chlamydia. Similarly, there is no evidence that redox directly and specifically impacts transcription of cell division genes based on our new RNAseq data. The types of experiments suggested are not easily implemented in Chlamydia, but we would certainly like to be able to do them.

      As it pertains to penicillin specifically, we and others have shown that treating chlamydiae with Pen blocks secondary differentiation (meaning late genes are not transcribed). Effectively, Pen treatment freezes the organism in an RB state with continued transcription of RB genes. What we have shown is that, even during Pen treatment (which blocks late gene transcription), ahpC KD can overcome this block, which shows that elevated oxidation is able to trigger late gene expression even when the organisms are phenotypically blocked from progressing to EBs. The comparison from our perspective to Caulobacter is of limited value.

      This redox-transcription shortcoming is also reflected in the discussion where most are about the effects and molecular mitigation of redox stress in various systems, but there is little discussion on its link with developmental transcription in bacteria in general and chlamydia.

      We have edited the Discussion to include a broader description of the results and included additional citations as suggested by the reviewer (PMID: 32090198, PMID: 26063575). However, we found one suggested article (PMID: 2865432) is not relevant to our study, so we didn’t cite it in our present manuscript. There may have been a typo, so feel free to provide us the correct PMID that can be cited.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Line 146. A minor point, but inclusion-forming units directly measure infectious EBs. In some cases, the particle-to-infectivity ratio approaches unity. I don't believe IFUs are a "proxy".

      Following reviewers comment we have modified the statement.

      (2) Figure 2E. Results are normalized to uninduced. The actual number of IFUs in the uninduced should be provided.

      In the revised version of the manuscript, we have provided actual number of IFUs at 24 and 48 hpi in the uninduced condition of both ahpC OE and EV.

      (3) Figures 3B&D. The shades of gray are not possible to distinguish. I'd suggest color or direct labeling.

      Following reviewer’s suggestion, in the latest version of the manuscript we have replaced gray shaded graphs with RGB colored graphs for better visualization and understanding.

      (4) Lines 217-224, Figure 4. Is it possible to get micrographs of the reporter retention in chlamydiae to demonstrate that it is chlamydial ROS levels that are being measured and not cellular?

      Following reviewer’s comment, we performed live-cell microscopy using uninfected HeLa cells and ahpC KD in the uninduced and induced conditions at 24 and 40 hpi. We have created new Fig. 5A with the quantitative ROS measurement graph done by the plate reader (old figure 4 E) and these new 24 hpi/40 hpi microscopy images (Fig 5B and S4).

      (5) The Discussion is overly long and redundant. Large portions of the discussion are simply a rehash of the Results listing by figure number the relevant conclusions.

      Following reviewer’s suggestion, the discussion is modified.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) In Figure 2, ahpC is significantly overexpressed at 14 hpi. An IFA as in 2B for 14hpi will be useful. This will help to understand how quick the effect of ahpC overexpression is on development.

      We have added 14 hpi IFA of ahpC and EV as part of Fig 2B.

      (2) In Figure 2E, is there a reason that there is no increase in recoverable IFUs between 24h and 48h for the EV?

      The graph in 2E is % of uninduced. For more clarity, we have mentioned absolute IFUs of uninduced samples in the revised manuscript and IFU level at 48 hpi IFU is higher than the 24 hpi.

      (3) In Figure 3, Can relative levels of RB vs EB measured? This will provide a convincing case for the production of more EBs even when only less/more RBs are present. The same stands for Figure 4.

      We assumed that the comment is for Fig. 2 not the Fig. 3 and following reviewer’s constructive suggestion, we have attempted to resolve the issue. We normalized log10 IFUs/ml with log10 gDNA for 24 hpi and added as figure 2F and 4E. This may resolve the reviewer’s concern about the levels of RBs and EBs.

      (4) A colour-coded Figure 3B and D, instead of various shades of grey, will be easy for the reader to interpret.

      Agreed with the reviewer. For better visualization and understanding of the data, we have replaced gray shaded graphs with RGB colored graphs in the latest version of the manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Other comments:

      (1) The first paragraph of the discussion should be deleted. It's not very useful or revealing and just delivers self-citations.

      Following reviewer’s suggestion, we rewrote the discussion.

      (2) The first paragraph of the results section does not present results. It's an intro.

      We incorporated this information into the Intro as suggested.

      (3) Has the redox difference between RBs and EBs been experimentally verified by these authors as depicted and claimed in Figure 1A with the cell-permeable, fluorogenic dye CellROX Deep Red for example? It is important to confirm this for EBs and RBs in this setup.

      The difference between redox status of RBs and EBs is studied and established before by previous studies such as Wang et al., 2014.

      (4) l77. Obligate intracellular alpha-proteobacteria also differentiate ... not only chlamydiae.

      We have modified the sentence.

      (5) l127. Is the redox state altered upon ahpC overexpression?

      The ahpC overexpression strain showed hyper resistance for the tested oxidizing agents (including the highest concentration tested) indicating highly reduced conditions as a result of higher activity of AhpC.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We sincerely thank the Editor and the Reviewers for their time and effort in thoroughly reviewing our manuscript and providing valuable feedback. We hope we have addressed their comments effectively and improved the clarity of our manuscript as a result.

      The major revisions in the updated manuscript are as follows:

      (1) Immunization experiments using mRNA in Syrian hamsters were performed (Supplementary figures 2A, B and C).

      (2) An ELISPOT assay to evaluate cellular immunity in Syrian hamsters inoculated with BK2102 was conducted (Figure 2F).

      (3) IgA titers in BK2102-inoculated Syrian hamsters were successfully measured (Supplementary figure 2B).

      (4) New immunogenicity data for BK2102 in monkeys was additionally included (Supplementary figure 3B).

      (5) The discussion section has been thoroughly revised to integrate the new data.

      These results have been incorporated into the manuscript, and additional text has been added accordingly.

      Below, we provide point-by-point responses to the reviewers’ comments and concerns.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) A comparative safety assessment of the available m-RNA and live attenuated vaccines will be necessary. The comparison should include details of the doses, neutralizing antibody titers with duration of protection, tissue damage in the various organs, and other risks, including virulence reversal.

      We agree with the Reviewer’s comment regarding the lack of data to compare BK2102 with an mRNA vaccine. Unfortunately, we were unable to obtain commercially available mRNA vaccines for research purposes and could not produce mRNA vaccines of equivalent quality. As a result, a direct comparison of the safety profiles of BK2102 and mRNA vaccines was not possible. To address this, we conducted a GLP study with an additional twelve monkeys to evaluate the safety of BK2102. Following three intranasal inoculations of BK2102 at two-week intervals, no toxic effects were observed in any of the parameters assessed, including tissue damage, respiratory rate, functional observational battery (FOB), hematology, or fever. These results are detailed in lines 115-117.

      Furthermore, we compared the immunogenicity of BK2102 with that of an in-house prepared mRNA vaccine. The mRNA vaccine was designed to target the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2, and its immunogenicity was evaluated in hamsters. When serum neutralizing antibody titers were found to be comparable between the two, intranasal inoculation of BK2102 induced higher IgA levels in nasal wash samples compared to those from hamsters injected intramuscularly with the self-made mRNA vaccine (Supplementary figures. 2A and B, respectively). Additionally, while the mRNA vaccine induced Th1 and Th2 immune responses, as indicated by the detection of IgG1 and IgG2/3 (Supplementary figure. 2C), BK2102 mainly induced a Th1 response in hamsters. These explanatory sentences have been added to the manuscript (lines 140-150).

      (2) The vaccine's effect on primates is doubtful. The study fails to explain why only two of four monkeys developed neutralizing antibodies. Information about the vaccine's testing in monkeys is also missing: What was the level of protection and duration of the persistence of neutralizing antibodies in monkeys? Were the tissue damages and other risks assessed?

      We believe that the reason neutralizing antibody titers were observed in only 2 out of 4 monkeys in the immunogenicity study reported in the original manuscript is that only a single-dose was administered. We measured the neutralizing antibody titers in sera collected from monkeys used in the GLP study and confirmed the induction of neutralizing antibody in all 6 monkeys that received three inoculations of BK2102. This data has been included in a new figure (Supplementary figure 3B). While we would have liked to evaluate the persistence of immunity and conduct a protection study in monkeys, limitations related to facility availability and cost prevented us from doing so. As noted in (1), tissue injury and other risk assessments were evaluated in the GLP study, which showed no evidence of tissue injury or other toxic effects. These results are described in lines 113-117.

      (3) The vaccine's safety in immunosuppressed individuals or individuals with chronic diseases should be assessed. Authors should make specific comments on this aspect.

      In general, live-attenuated vaccines are contraindicated for immunosuppressed individuals or those with chronic conditions, and therefore BK2102 is also not intended for use in these patients.

      This information has been added to the Discussion section (lines 309-311).

      (4) The candidate vaccine has been tested with a limited number of SARS-CoV-2 strains. Of note, the latest Omicron variants have lesser virulence than many early variants, such as the alfa, beta, and delta strains.

      We have added the results of a protection study against the SARS-CoV-2 gamma strain to Supplementary figures 5A and B. No weight loss was observed in BK2102-inoculated hamsters following infection with the gamma strain. These results are described in lines 109-111, 158-162.

      (5) Limitations of the study have not been discussed.

      We apologize for the ambiguity in the description of the Limitations of this paper. One major limitation of this study is that, despite observing high immunogenicity in hamsters, it remains uncertain whether the same positive results would be achieved in humans. Differences in susceptibility exist between species, which are not solely attributed to weight differences. For instance, while a single dose of 10<sup>3</sup> PFU of BK2102 was sufficient to induce neutralizing antibodies in hamsters, a higher dose of 10<sup>7</sup> PFU in monkeys was required to induce antibodies in only about 50% of the monkeys. Additionally, two more challenges in development of BK2102 were added to the discussion. The first was the limited availability of analytical reagents for hamster models, which restricted the detailed immunological characterization of the response. Second, it took time to gather preclinical data due to the space-related restrictions of BSL3 facilities, which delayed the clinical trials for BK2102 until many individuals had already acquired immunity against SARS-CoV-2. It remains to be seen whether our candidate will be optimal for human use, as the immunogenicity of live-attenuated vaccines is generally influenced by pre-existing immunity.

      We added these considerations to the discussion section (lines 300-309).

      Reviewer #2:

      No major weaknesses were identified, however, this reviewer notes the following:

      The authors missed the opportunity to include a mRNA vaccine to demonstrate that the immunity and protection efficacy of their live attenuated vaccine BK2102 is better than a mRNA vaccine.

      One of the potential advantages of live-attenuated vaccines is their ability to induce mucosal

      immunity. It would be great if the authors included experiments to assess the mucosal immunity of their live-attenuated vaccine BK2102.

      We agree with the Reviewer’s suggestion regarding the importance of comparing BK2102 with the mRNA vaccine modality and evaluating the mucosal immunity induced by BK2102. In hamsters, under conditions where serum neutralizing antibody titers were equivalent, intranasal inoculation of BK2102 induced higher levels of antigen-specific IgA in nasal wash compared to intramuscular injection of the conventional mRNA vaccine. This new data has been added in Supplementary figures 2A and B, and corresponding sentences have been included in the Results and Discussion sections (lines 140-145, 292-299).

      Reviewer #3:

      Lack of a more detailed discussion of this new vaccine approach in the context of reported live-attenuated SARS-CoV-2 vaccines in terms of its advantages and/or weaknesses.

      sCPD9 and CoviLiv<sup>TM</sup>, two previously reported live-attenuated vaccines, achieve attenuation through codon deoptimization or a combination of codon deoptimization and FCS deletion. These two strategies affect viral proliferation but do not directly impact virulence. In contrast, the temperature sensitivity-related substitutions in NSP14 included in BK2102 selectively restrict the infection site, reducing the likelihood of lung infection and providing a safety advantage over the other live-attenuated vaccines. As mentioned in the response to comment (5) of Reviewer #1, a limitation of BK2102 is that its development began later than that of the previously reported live-attenuated vaccines. Consequently, we must consider the impact of pre-existing immunity in future human trials. Based on these points, we have added sentences discussing the advantages and disadvantages to the Discussion section (lines 302-305, 312-319).

      Antibody endpoint titers could be presented.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We calculated the antibody endpoint titers for Figure 2A and included the results in lines 105-107 of the revised manuscript.

      Lack of elaboration on immune mechanisms of protection at the upper respiratory tract (URT) against an immune evasive variant in the absence of detectable neutralizing antibodies.

      We appreciate the comment. The potential role of cellular and mucosal immunity in protection has been discussed in more detail in the revised manuscript, specifically in lines 283-295. According to the reference we initially cited, Hasanpourghadi et al. evaluated their adenovirus vector vaccine candidates and reported that the protection was enhanced by co-expression of the nucleocapsid protein rather than relying solely on the spike protein (Hasanpourghadi et al., Microbes Infect, 2023). Therefore, cellular immunity against the nucleocapsid and/or other viral proteins induced by BK2102 may also contribute to protection, as evidenced by more pronounced cellular immunity to the nucleocapsid detected through ELISPOT assay. Moreover, antigen-specific mucosal immunity was successfully detected in additional studies. The involvement of mucosal immunity in protection against mutant strains has been documented in the previously cited reference (Thwaites et al., Nat Commun, 2023). We have included these new data in Figure 2F and Supplementary figure 2B. Additionally, the results and discussion regarding the mechanisms of protection in the upper respiratory tract, in the absence of detectable neutralizing antibodies, have been incorporated into the revised lines 136-139, 143-145 and 283-295, respectively.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2:

      Figure 1: Please include the LOD and statistical analysis in both panels. Please consider passaging the virus in Vero cell s, approved for human vaccine production, to assess the stability of BK2102 after serial passage in vitro, which is important for its implementation as a live-attenuated vaccine. The authors should consider evaluating viral replication in different cell lines, and also assessing the plaque phenotype.

      Thank you for your valuable comments. First, we have added the statistical analysis and the limit of detection (LOD) to Figure 1. In response to the comments regarding the stability of BK2102 after serial passage in Vero cells, as well as its replication and plaque phenotype in different cell lines, we manufactured test substances for GLP studies and clinical trials by passaging BK2102 in Vero cells, which are approved for human vaccine production. We confirmed that BK2102 is stable (data not shown). Additionally, we verified that BK2102 replicates in BHK, Vero E6, and Vero E6/TMPRSS2 cells, in addition to Vero cells. Among these options, we selected Vero cells due to their high proliferative capacity and ability to produce clear plaques.

      Figure 2: Please, include statistical analysis in panels A, B, and D. Please, include the LOD in panels A and D. Please, include viral titers from these experiments in hamsters and NHPs.

      First, we would like to note that Figure 2D has been replaced by Figure 2C in the revised manuscript, and the data on neutralizing antibody titers in non-human primates (NHPs), originally presented as Figure 2C, have been moved to the Supplementary figure 3A.

      We have added the statistical analysis to Figure 2B and C, as well as the LOD to Figure 2C. Figure 2A (Spike-specific IgG ELISA) was intended for qualitative evaluation based on OD values, so the LOD was not defined. We have also added a detailed description of virus titer in the Methods section under the headings “Evaluation of Immunogenicity in Hamsters” and “Evaluation of Immunogenicity in Monkeys”, and updated the information in the Figure legends of the revised manuscript (lines 451, 459, 468-474, 566-567, 576-578, 582-584, 661-662).

      Figure 3: Please, include the viral titers of the challenge virus in the NT and lungs.

      We have added the virus titers for the challenge experiments to the Results section under the heading “BK2102 induced protective immunity against SARS-CoV-2 infection” (lines 168-174).

      Figure 4: Please, include statistical analysis in panels B and C and evaluate viral titers.

      We have added the statistical analysis to Figure 4B and C. Unfortunately, all samples in Figure 4 were fixed in formalin for histopathological examination, so virus titers could not be measured. However, in past experiments, we measured viral titers in the nasal wash samples and lungs of hamsters three days post-infection with D614G and BK2102. We confirmed that infectious virus was detected in both the nasal wash and lungs of the hamsters infected with D614G strain (2.9 log10 PFU/mL and 5.3 log10 PFU/g, respectively), but not in the lungs of the hamsters with BK2102. The viral titers in the nasal wash of BK2102-infected hamsters were equivalent to those of the hamsters infected with the D614G wild-type strain (3.0 log10 PFU/mL). However, we did not include this data to the revised manuscript.

      Figure 5: Please, include viral titers in different tissues with the different vaccines (panels A and B). Please, include the body weight changes.  Finally, please, consider the possibility of challenging the vaccinated mice with the same SARS-CoV-2 strains used in the manuscript to demonstrate similar protection efficacy in this new ACE2 transgenic mice.

      The different tissues of Tg mice were not sampled, as no gross abnormalities were observed in organs other than lungs and brains during necropsy. We have added new data on the body weight of Tg mice after infection to Supplementary figures 9B and 9C in the revised manuscript, along with additional lines in the Results section (lines 228-230 and 247-248). Although we do not know the reason, we have observed that immunization of this animal model does not lead to an increase in antibody titers. Therefore, we do not consider this animal model suitable for the protection study as you suggested. However, it could be useful in passive immunization experiments.

      Supplementary Figure 1: Since most of the manuscript focuses on BK2102, the authors should consider removing the other live-attenuated vaccines (Supplementary Figure 1A).

      We agree with the Reviewer’s suggestion and have simplified the description for Supplementary Figure 1A (lines 93-97).

      Supplementary Figure 3: Please, include statistical analysis.

      In the revised manuscript, Supplementary Figure 3 from the original manuscript has been moved to Supplementary Figure 2D. The IgG subclass ELISA was intended for a qualitative evaluation based on OD values, and therefore the results were included in the Supplementary figure. However, we realized the description was not clear, so we added further clarification in the Results section (lines 145-147).

      Supplementary Figure 4: Please, include the viral titers in both infected and contact hamsters from this experiment.

      In the revised manuscript, Supplementary Figure 4 in the original manuscript has been moved to Supplementary Figure 6. Unfortunately, due to limited breeding space for the hamsters, we were unable to prepare groups for the evaluation of viral titer, and instead prioritized evaluation by body weight.

      Reviewer #3:

      (1) It would be helpful to discuss this new vaccine in the context of other reported live-attenuated vaccines in terms of its advantages and/or disadvantages.

      Please refer to our response to the Reviewer’s “first comment” above, as well as to the response in Public comment (5) of Reviewer #1. The modifications made in the manuscript are described in lines 302-305 and 312-319.

      (2) Figure 2A: end-point titers could be presented, other than OD values.

      This comment is addressed in the reviewer’s second public comment. The endpoint titer has been included in lines 105-107 of the revised manuscript.

      (3) Figure 2C: it is unclear why only 2 out of 4 NHPs show neutralization titers. This could be moved to a supplementary figure.

      As suggested by the Reviewer, Figure 2C of the original manuscript has been moved to Supplementary Figure 3A in the revised manuscript. In response Public comment (2) from Reviewer #1, we have also added new data on neutralizing antibodies in the monkeys as Supplementary figure 3B.

      (4) Figures 2E-F: bulk measurement of cytokine production in supernatants is not an optimal way to measure vaccine-induced Ag-specific T cells. ELISPOT or ICS are better. T-cell ELSIPOT for hamsters is available. This should at least be discussed.

      Please refer to our response to this Reviewer’s third public comment. We have added the new results in Figure 2F of the revised manuscript.

      (5) It is quite interesting that no N-specific cellular response was observed, given that it is a live-attenuated vaccine. What about N-specific binding Abs?

      We conducted the ELISPOT assay as suggested by the Reviewer and detected cellular immunity against both spike and nucleocapsid proteins (Figure 2F). We did not examine nucleocapsid-specific antibodies, as they do not contribute to the neutralizing activity; however, nucleocapsid-specific cellular immunity was confirmed.

      (6) Figure 3: limit of detection for virological assays could be labeled.

      We have added the LOD in Figures 3C, D, F and G.

      (7) Figures 3E-F: it is interesting to see that the vaccine elicits almost complete protection at URT against BA.5, despite no BA.5 neutralizing titers being detected at all. What mechanism of URT protection by BK2102 would the authors speculate? T cells or other Ab effector functions?

      Please refer to the response to this Reviewer’s third public comment. We have added new results regarding cellular and mucosal immunity (Figure 2F and Supplementary figure 2B) and discussed the mechanisms of protection in the upper respiratory tract in the absence of detectable neutralizing antibodies (lines 136-139, 143-145 and 283-295, respectively).

      (8) Figure 3I: the durability of protection is a strength of the study. Other than body weight changes, what about viral loads in the animals after the challenge?

      We primarily assessed the effect of the vaccine by monitoring changes in body weight, as the differences compared to the naïve group were clear. Unfortunately, we did not collect samples at different time points throughout the study, which prevented us from evaluating the viral titers.

      In addition, we made corrections to several other sections identified during the revision process. The revised parts are as follows:

      - In the Methods section under the title “Evaluation of BK2102 pathogenicity in hamsters”, the infectious virus titer of D614G strain has been corrected (line 478).

      - In the Methods section under the title “In vivo passage of BK2102 in hamsters”, infectious virus titer of BK2102 and A50-18 strain has been corrected (line 487).

      - The collection time of splenocytes after inoculation has been corrected in the figure legend of Figure 2D, (line 583).

      - There was an error in Figure 2D. The figure has been replaced with the appropriate version.

      - A new reference on NSP1 deletion (Ueno et al., Virology, 2024) has been added to the references.

      - Several methods have been described more clearly.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Comments on the revised version:

      Concerns flagged about using CRISPR -guide RNA mediated knockdown of viral has yet to be addressed entirely. I understand that the authors could not get knock out despite attempts and hence they have guide RNA mediated knockdown strategy. However, I wondered if the authors looked at the levels of the downstream genes in this knockdown.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing this up since it is known that certain artifacts derived from this approach may be related with changes in expression of downstream genes. We run a qPCR of Rv0432 and Rv0433 and confirmed that no significant differences in expression of virR downstream genes were detected in the virR mutant or the complemented strains relative to WT. This is now indicated in the method section on Generation of the CRISPR mutants. The data is now presented as Supplementary Figure 13.

      Authors have used the virmut-Comp strain for some of the experiments. However, the materials and methods must describe how this strain was generated. Given the mutant is a CRISPR-guide RNA mediated knockdown. The CRISPR construct may have taken up the L5 loci. Did authors use episomal construct for complementation? If so, what is the expression level of virR in the complementation construct? What are the expression levels of downstream genes in mutant and complementation strains? This is important because the transcriptome analysis was redone by considering complementation strain. The complemented strain is written as virmut-C or virmut-Comp. This has to be consistent.

      We apologize for not having included the information about the generation of the complemented strain in our last version of the manuscript. We took the complementing vector from a previous paper on VirR (Rath et al., (2013) PNAS 110(49):E4790). This vector was constructed as follows: Complementation plasmids were cloned using Gateway® Cloning Technology (Invitrogen). E. coli strains expressing the following Gateway vectors were kindly provided by Dirk Schnappinger and Sabine Ehrt: pDO221A, pDO23A, pEN23A-linker1, pEN41A-TO2, pEN21A-Hsp60, pDE43-MEH. PCR was used to amplify the following target sequences from H37Rvgenomic DNA: coding sequence of Rv0431, coding sequence of Rv0431 with a FLAG tag either in its C-terminus or its N-terminus, and the predicted cytosolic sequence of Rv0431 with a FLAG tag in its new C-terminus. The primers used for PCR were designed such that the amplicons would be flanked with Gateway® cloning- specific attachment (att) sites. These PCR products were recombined into Gateway® donor vectors using bacteriophage-derived integrase and integration host factor, resulting in entry vectors. The recombination events are specific to the attB sites on the PCR products and to the attP sequences on the donor vectors, such that the orientation of the target sequence is maintained during the recombination reaction, also known as the BP reaction, for attB-attP recombination. Using the MultiSite Gateway® system, three DNA fragments, derived from each of three distinct entry vectors, can be simultaneously inserted into a final complementation vector called the destination vector in a specific order and orientation. Multisite recombination events are mediated by Integrase and Integrase Host Factor, in a process called the LR reaction (for the attL and attR sites in the entry and destination vectors). The Gateway® entry vectors thus generated were recombined with another entry vector containing either the Hsp60 promoter, an empty entry vector, and a complementation vector (episomal) to give rise to the final destination vector. The destination vector (episomal) was engineered to contain a hygromycin resistance cassette. These vectors were used to transform competent Rv0431-deficient Mtb. The transformation mixture was plated on 7H11 plates containing OADC and hygromycin (50 μg/ml). Colonies, typically observed 3-5 weeks later, were isolated and grown in 7H9 media and characterized.

      For simplicity, we have just referenced our previous paper to indicate that the complementing plasmid is the same used in that study.

      Regarding the virR expression levels in the WT, virR<sup>mut</sup> and complemented virR strains please see previous Figure 6 C.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The authors have revised the manuscript in light of previous reviews. The authors have addressed some of my concerns appropriately. However, the specific dataset remains unchanged and unclear.

      Fig 8G and H: In response to a comment on the mechanism of how VirR mediates EV release, the authors have added new data showing an increase in the abundance of deacetylated muropeptides in the mutant. This observation is linked to altered lysozyme activity or PG fragility. In my opinion, this is another indirect observation. More concerning is the complemented strain, which also showed a comparable increase in deacetylated muropeptides, indicating that the altered muropeptides could be unrelated to VirR.

      We must disagree here with the reviewer assessment about the fact that the abundance of deacetylated muropeptides is an indirect indication of PG fragility. We consider that this observation and quantitative fact is another additional evidence that indicate a more fragile PG. We believe that considering each of the supporting facts individually may be seen as indirect, but we would like that the reviewer take all the evidence together: (i) sensitivity to lysozyme; (ii) enlargement and altered physicochemical morphological characteristics including porosity or thickness; (iii) altered penetrance of FDAAs; and (iv) increased released of muropeptides. In this later fact, the complemented strain may not display the WT features, but this may be due to some artifacts derived from the complementation.

      Taking all together, we believe that the PG of virR<sup>mut</sup> is more fragile than that of the WT and the complemented strains based on a series of evidence. We hope the reviewer may consider this perspective when analyzing such a complex feature like PG fragility. So far, there is not a direct method to assess this condition.

      Lipid analyses are not comprehensive. The issue related to the need for more clarity of DIMA and DIMB still needs to be addressed. I understand that the authors do not have facilities to perform radioactive assays. However, they could have repeated the experiment to generate a better-quality image. Similarly, the newly generated SL-1, PAT, and DAT TLC could be of better quality. Bands still need to be resolved. The solvent front is irregular. The same is true for PIMs and DPG TLCs. With the evidence provided, the deregulation of cell wall lipids is incomplete.

      We agree with the reviewer that the quality of the TLC is not appropriate. We have no repeated the PDIM TLC (new Fig 7D). In addition, we have repeated the TLCs resolving sulfolipids in a 2D mode. For simplicity we just run the glycerol condition including the three strains. This is now part of a new Supplementary figure 8 B. For PIMs, we have a 1D and a 2D analysis that, after checking previous papers using similar approaches with no radioactivity, we consider that it has the desired quality to identify the indicated lipids.

      We hope this new data and repeated experiments satisfy the reviewer concerns.

      Thank you very much for your assessment and time to review this paper.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer # 1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Inthispreprint, theauthorssystematicallyandrigorouslyinvestigatehowspecificclassesofresiduemutations alter the critical temperature as a proxy for the driving forces for phase separation. The work is well executed, the manuscript well-written, and the results reasonable and insightful.

      Strengths:

      The introductory material does an excellent job of being precise in language and ideas while summarizing the state of the art. The simulation design, execution, and analysis are exceptional and set the standard for these types of large-scale simulation studies. The results, interpretations, and Discussion are largely nuanced, clear, and well-motivated.

      We thank the reviewer for their assessment of our work and for highlighting the key strengths of the paper.

      Weaknesses:

      This is not exactly a weakness, but I think it would future-proof the authors’ conclusions to clarify a few key caveats associated with this work. Most notably, given the underlying implementation of the Mpipi model, temperature dependencies for intermolecular interactions driven by solvent effects (e.g., hydrophobic effect and charge-mediated interactions facilitated by desolvation penalties) are not captured. This itself is not a “weakness” per se, but it means I would imagine CERTAIN types of features would not be wellcaptured; notably, my expectation is that at higher temperatures, proline-rich sequences drive intermolecular interactions, but at lower temperatures, they do not. This is likely also true for the aliphatic residues, although these are found less frequently in IDRs. As such, it may be worth the authors explicitly discussing.

      We also thank the reviewer for pointing out that a more detailed discussion of the model limitations is needed. The original Mpipi model was designed to probe UCST-type transitions (that are associative in nature) of disordered sequences. The reviewer is correct, that in its current form, the model does not capture LCST-type transitions that depend on changes in solvation of hydrophobic residues with temperature. We have amended the discussion to highlight this fact.

      Similarly, prior work has established the importance of an alpha-helical region in TDP-43, as well as the role of aliphatic residues in driving TDP-43’s assembly (see Schmidt et al 2019). I recognize the authors have focussed here on a specific set of mutations, so it may be worth (in the Discussion) mentioning [1] what impact, if any, they expect transient or persistent secondary structure to have on their conclusions and [2] how they expect aliphatic residues to contribute. These can and probably should be speculative as opposed to definitive.

      Again - these are not raised as weaknesses in terms of this work, but the fact they are not discussed is a minor weakness, and the preprint’s use and impact would be improved on such a discussion.

      We agree with the reviewer that the effects of structural changes/propensities on these scaling behaviors would be an interesting and important angle to probe. We also comment on this in the discussion.

      Reviewer # 2 (Public Review):

      This is an interesting manuscript where a CA-only CG model (Mpipi) was used to examine the critical temperature (Tc) of phase separation of a set of 140 variants of prion-like low complexity domains (PLDs). The key result is that Tc of these PLDs seems to have a linear dependence on substitutions of various sticker and space residues. This is potentially useful for estimating the Tc shift when making novel mutations of a PLD. However, I have strong reservations about the significance of this observation as well as some aspects of the technical detail and writing of the manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for their thoughtful and detailed feedback on the manuscript.

      (1) Writing of the manuscript: The manuscript can be significantly shortened with more concise discussions. The current text reads as very wordy in places. It even appears that the authors may be trying a bit too hard to make a big deal out of the observed linear dependence.

      The manuscript needs to be toned done to minimize self-promotion throughout the text. Some of the glaring examples include the wording “unprecedented”, “our research marks a significant milestone in the field of computational studies of protein phase behavior ..”, “Our work explores a new framework to describe, quantitatively, the phase behavior ...”, and others.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestions on the writing of the manuscript. We understand the concern regarding the length and tone of the manuscript, and in response to their feedback, we have revised the language throughout the manuscript.

      There is really little need to emphasize the need to manage a large number of simulations for all 140 variants. Yes, some thoughts need to go into designing and managing the jobs and organizing the data, but it is pretty standard in computational studies. For example, large-scale protein ligand-free energy calculations can require one to a few orders of magnitude larger number of runs, and it is pretty routine.

      We fully agree with the reviewer that this aspect of the study is relatively standard in computational research and does not require special emphasis. In response, we have revised the manuscript to shorten the aforementioned section, focusing instead on the scientific insights gained from the simulations rather than the logistical challenges of managing them.

      When discussing the agreement with experimental results on Tm, it should be noted that the values of R > 0.93 and RMSD < 14 K are based on only 16 data points. I am not sure that one should refer to this as “extended validation”. It is more like a limited validation given the small data size.

      We thank the reviewer for their consideration of our validation set. Indeed, the agreement with experimental results is based on 16 data points, as this set represents the available published data at the time of writing of this manuscript. The term “extended validation” is used to signify that our current dataset builds upon previous validations (in Joseph, Reinhardt et al. Nat Comput. Sci. 2021), incorporating additional variants not previously examined. The metrics of an r>0.93 and a low RMSD indicate a strong agreement between the model and experiments, and an improvement with respect to other reported models. We are committed to continue validating our methods.

      Results of linear fitting shown in Eq 4-12 should be summarized in a single table instead of scattering across multiple pages.

      We considered the reviewer’s suggestion to compile all the laws into a single table. However, we believe it would be more effective for readers to reference each relationship directly where it is first discussed in the text. That said, we do include Table 1 in the original manuscript, which provides a summary of all the laws.

      The title may also be toned down a bit given the limited significance of the observed linear dependence.

      We respectfully disagree with the reviewer and believe that the current title accurately captures the scope of the manuscript.

      (2) Significance and reliability of Tc: Given the simplicity of Mpipi (a CA-only model that can only describe polymerchaindimension)andthelowcomplexitynatureofPLDs, thesequencecompositionitselfisexpected to be the key determinant of Tc. This is also reflected in various mean-field theories. It is well known that other factors will contribute, such as patterning (examined in this work as well), residual structures, and conformational preferences in dilute and dense phases. The observed roughly linear dependence is a nice confirmation but really unsurprising by itself. It appears how many of the constructs deviate from the expected linear dependence (e.g., Figure 4A) may be more interesting to explore.

      While linear dependencies in critical solution temperatures may appear expected for certain systems, for example, symmetric hard spheres, the heterogeneity of intrinsically disordered regions (IDRs), like prion-like domains (PLDs), make this finding notable. The simplicity of our linear scaling law belies the underlying complexity of multivalent interactions and sequence-dependent behaviors in a certain sequence regime, which has not been quantitatively characterized in this manner before. Likewise, although linear dependencies may be expected in simplified models, the real-world applicability and empirical validation of these laws in biologically relevant systems are not guaranteed. Our chemically based model provides the robustness needed to do that. The linear relationship observed is significant because it provides a predictive framework for understanding how specific mutations affect a diverse set of PLDs. The framework presented can be extended to other protein families upon the application of a validated model, which might or might not yield linear relationships depending on the cooperative effects of their collective behavior. This extends beyond confirming known theories—it offers a practical tool for predicting phase behavior based on sequence composition

      We agree with the reviewer that, while the overarching linear trend is clear, deviations from linearity observed in constructs like those in Figure 4A point to additional, and interesting, layers of complexity. These deviations offer interesting avenues for future research and suggest that while linearity might dominate PLD critical behavior, other factors may modulate this behavior under specific conditions.

      This is an excellent suggestion from the reviewer that, while it falls outside the scope of the current study, we are interested in exploring in the future.

      Finally, the relationships are all linear, they have been normalized in different ways—the strength of the study also lies in that. Instead of focusing solely on linearity, our study explores the physical mechanisms that underlie these relationships. This approach provides a more complete understanding of how sequence composition and the underlying chemistry of the mutated residues influence T<sub>c</sub.

      The assumption that all systems investigated here belong to the same universality class as a 3D Ising model and the use of Eqn 20 and 21 to derive Tc is poorly justified. Several papers have discussed this issue, e.g., see Pappu Chem Rev 2023 and others. Muthukumar and coworkers further showed that the scaling of the relevant order parameters, including the conserved order parameter, does not follow the 3D Ising model. More appropriate theoretical models including various mean field theories can be used to derive binodal from their data, such as using Rohit Pappu’s FIREBALL toolset. Imposing the physics of the 3D Ising model as done in the current work creates challenges for equivalence relationships that are likely unjustified.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point and for highlighting the FIREBALL toolset. Based on our understanding, FIREBALL is designed to fit phase diagrams using mean-field theories, such as Flory–Huggins and Gaussian Cluster Theory. Our experience with this toolset suggests that it places a higher weight on the dilute arm of the binodal. However, in our slab simulations, we observe greater uncertainty in the density of the dilute arm. This leads to only a moderate fit of the data to the mean-field theories employed in the toolset. While we agree that there is no reason to assume the phase behavior of these systems is fully captured by the 3D Ising model, we expect that such a model will describe the behavior near the critical point better than mean-field theories. Testing our results further with different critical exponents would be valuable in assessing how these predictions compare to a broader set of experimental data. Additionally, we have made the raw data points for the phase diagrams available on our GitHub, enabling practitioners to apply alternative fitting methods.

      While it has been a common practice to extract Tc when fitting the coexistence densities, it is not a parameter that is directly relevant physiologically. Instead, Csat would be much more relevant to think about if phase separation could occur in cells.

      WhileitistruethatCsatisdirectlyrelevanttowhetherphaseseparationcanoccurincellsunder physiological conditions, T<sub>c</sub> should not be dismissed as irrelevant.T<sub>c</sub> provides fundamental insights into the thermodynamics of phase separation, reflecting the overall stability and strength of interactions driving condensate formation. This stability is crucial for understanding how environmental factors, such as temperature or mutations, might affect phase behavior. In Figure 2C and D we compare experimental C<sub>sat</sub> values with our predicted T<sub>c</sub> from simulations. These quantities are roughly inversely proportional to each other and so we expect that, to a first approximation, the relationships recovered for T<sub>c</sub> should hold when consideringC<sub>sat</sub> at a fixed temperature.

      Reviewer # 3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      “Decoding Phase Separation of Prion-Like Domains through Data-Driven Scaling Laws” by Maristany et al. offers a significant contribution to the understanding of phase separation in prion-like domains (PLDs). The study investigates the phase separation behavior of PLDs, which are intrinsically disordered regions within proteins that have a propensity to undergo liquid-liquid phase separation (LLPS). This phenomenon is crucial in forming biomolecular condensates, which play essential roles in cellular organization and function. The authors employ a data-driven approach to establish predictive scaling laws that describe the phase behavior of these domains.

      Strengths:

      The study benefits from a robust dataset encompassing a wide range of PLDs, which enhances the generalizability of the findings. The authors’ meticulous curation and analysis of this data add to the study’s robustness. The scaling laws derived from the data provide predictive insights into the phase behavior of PLDs, which can be useful in the future for the design of synthetic biomolecular condensates.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting the importance of our work and for their critical feedback.

      Weaknesses:

      While the data-driven approach is powerful, the study could benefit from more experimental validation. Experimental studies confirming the predictions of the scaling laws would strengthen the conclusions. For example, in Figure 1, the Tc of TDP-43 is below 300 K even though it can undergo LLPS under standard conditions. Figure 2 clearly highlights the quantitative accuracy of the model for hnRNPA1 PLD mutants, but its applicability to other systems such as TDP-43, FUS, TIA1, EWSR1, etc., may be questionable.

      In the manuscript, we have leveraged existing experimental data for the A1-LCD variants, extracting critical temperatures and saturation concentrations to compare with our model and scaling law predictions. We acknowledge that a larger set of experiments would be beneficial. By selecting sequences that are related, we hypothesize that the scaling laws described herein should remain robust. In the case of TDP-43, to our knowledge this protein does not phase separate on its own under standard conditions. In vitro experiments that report phase separation at/above 300 K involve either the use of crowding agents (such as dextran or PEG) or multicomponent mixtures that include RNA or other proteins. Therefore, our predictions for TDP-43 are consistent with experiments. In general, we hope that the scaling laws presented in our work will inspire other researchers to further test their validity.

      The authors may wish to consider checking if the scaling behavior is only observed for Tc or if other experimentally relevant quantities such as Csat also show similar behavior. Additionally, providing more intuitive explanations could make the findings more broadly accessible.

      In Figure 2C and D we compare experimental C<sub>sat</sub> values with our predicted T<sub>c</sub> from simulations. These quantities are roughly inversely proportional to each other and so we expect that, to a first approximation, the relationships recovered for T<sub>c</sub> should hold when considering C<sub>sat</sub> at a fixed temperature.

      The study focuses on a particular subset of intrinsically disordered regions. While this is necessary for depth, it may limit the applicability of the findings to other types of phase-separating biomolecules. The authors may wish to discuss why this is not a concern. Some statements in the paper may require careful evaluation for general applicability, and I encourage the authors to exercise caution while making general conclusions. For example, “Therefore, our results reveal that it is almost twice more destabilizing to mutate Arg to Lys than to replace Arg with any uncharged, non-aromatic amino acid...” This may not be true if the protein has a lot of negative charges.

      A significant number of proteins, in addition to those mentioned in the manuscript, that contain prion-like low complexity domains have been reported to exhibit phase separation behaviors and/or are constituents of condensates inside cells. We therefore expect these laws to be applicable to such systems and have further revised the text to emphasize this point. As the reviewer suggests, we have also clarified that the reported scaling of various mutations applies to these systems.

      I am surprised that a quarter of a million CPU hours are described as staggering in terms of computational requirements.

      We have removed the note on CPU hours from the manuscript. However, we would like to clarify that the amount of CPU hours was incorrectly reported. The correct estimate is 1.25 million hours, but this value was unfortunately misrepresented during the editing process. We thank the reviewer for catching this mistake on our part.

      Reviewer # 1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Some minor points here:

      “illustrating that IDPs indeed behave like a polymer in a good solvent [43]. ” Whether or not an IDP depends as a polymer in a good solvent depends on the amino acid sequence - the referenced paper selected a set of sequences that do indeed appear on average to map to a good-solvent-like polymer, but lest we forget SAXS experiments require high protein concentrations and until the recent advent of SEC-SAXS, your protein essentially needed to be near infinitely soluble to be measured. As such, this paper’s conclusions are, apparently, ignorant of the limitations associated with the data they are describing, drawing sweeping generalizations that are clearly not supported by a multitude of studies in which sequence-dependencies have led to ensembles with a scaling exponent far below 0.59 (See Riback et al 2017, Peng et al 2019, Martin et al 2020, etc).

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point. To avoid making incorrect generalizations and potentially misleading readers, we have removed the quoted statement from our manuscript.

      As of right now, the sequences are provided in a convenient multiple-sequence alignment figure. However, it would be important also to provide all sequences in an Excel table to make it easy for folks to compare.

      In addition to the sequence alignment figure, we now provide all tested sequences in an Excel table format in the GitHub repository.

      Maybe I’m missing it, but it would be extremely valuable if the coexistence points plot in all the figures were provided as so-called source data; this could just be on the GitHub repository, but I’m envisaging a scenario where for each sequence you have a 4 column file where Col1=concentration and Col2=temperature, col3=fit concentration and col4=fit temperature, such that someone could plot col1 vs. col2 and col3 vs. col4 and reproduce the binodals in the various figures. Given the tremendous amount of work done to achieve binodals:

      The coexistence points used to plot the figures are now provided in the GitHub, in a format similar to that suggested by the reviewer.

      It would be nice to visually show how finite size effects are considered/tested for (which they are very nicely) because I think this is something the simulation field should be thinking about more than they are.

      Thank you for highlighting this point. In our previous work (supporting information of the original Mpipi paper), we demonstrated a thorough approach by varying both the cross-sectional area of the box and the long axis while keeping the overall density constant. In this work, we verified that the cross-sectional area was larger than the average R<sub>g</sub> of the protein. We then maintained a fixed cross-sectional area to long-axis ratio, varying the number of proteins while keeping the overall density constant. We have updated Appendix 1–Figure 2 to clarify our procedure and revised the caption to better explain how we ensured the number of proteins was adequate.

      When explaining the law of reticular diameters, it would be good to explain where the 3.06 exponent comes from.

      Based on the reviewer’s suggestion, we have added to the text: “The constant 3.06 in the equation is a dimensionless empirical factor that was derived from simulations of the 3D Ising model.”

      The NCPR scale in Figure 5 being viridis is not super intuitive and may benefit from being seismic or some other r-w-b colormap just to make it easier for a reader to map the color to meaning.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and have replaced the scale with a r-w-b colormap.

      The “sticker and spacer” framework has received critiques recently given its perceived simplicity. However, this work seems to clearly illustrate that certain types of residues have a large effect on Tc when mutated, whereas others have a smaller effect. It may be worth re-phrasing the sticker-spacer introduction not as “everyone knows aromatic/arginine residues are stickers” but as “aromatic and arginine residues have been proposed to be stickers, yet other groups have argued all residues matter equally” and then go on to make the point that while a black-and-white delineation is probably not appropriate, based on the data, certain residues ARE demonstrably more impactful on Tc than others, which is the definition of stickers. With this in mind, it may be useful to separate out a sticker and a spacer distribution in Figure 1D, because the different distribution between the two residues types is not particularly obvious from the overlapping points.

      We have revised the introduction of the sticker–spacer model in the manuscript for clarity. As the reviewer suggests, we have also separated the sticker and spacer distribution, which is now summarized in new Appendix 0–figure 8.

      Reviewer # 3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Figure 2 clearly highlights the quantitative accuracy of the model for hnRNPA1 PLD mutants, but its applicability to other systems such as TDP-43, FUS, TIA1, EWSR1, etc., may be questionable. The following sentence may be revised to reflect this: “Our extended validation set confirms that the Mpipi potential can ...”

      Based on the reviewer’s suggestion, we have revised the text: “Our validation set, which expands the range of proteins variants originally tested [32], highlights that the Mpipi potential can effectively capture the thermodynamic behavior of a wide range of hnRNPA1-PLD variants, and suggests that Mpipi is adequate for proteins with similar sequence compositions, as in the set of proteins analyzed in this study. In recent work by others [66], Mpipi was tested against experimental radius of gyration data for 137 disordered proteins and the model produced highly accurate results, which further suggests the applicability of the approach to a broad range of sequences.”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      As a starting point, the authors discuss the so-called "additive partitioning" (AP) method proposed by Loreau & Hector in 2001. The AP is the result of a mathematical rearrangement of the definition of overyielding, written in terms of relative yields (RY) of species in mixtures relative to monocultures. One term, the so-called complementarity effect (CE), is proportional to the average RY deviations from the null expectations that plants of both species "do the same" in monocultures and mixtures. The other term, the selection effect (SE), captures how these RY deviations are related to monoculture productivity. Overall, CE measures whether relative biomass gains differ from zero when averaged across all community members, and SE, whether the "relative advantage" species have in the mixture, is related to their productivity. In extreme cases, when all species benefit, CE becomes positive.

      This is not true; positive CE does not require positive RY deviations of all species. CE is positive as long as average RY deviation is greater than 0. In a 2-species mixture, for example, if the RY deviation of one species is -0.2 and that of the other species is +0.3, CE would be still positive. Positive CE can be associated with negative NE (net biodiversity effects) when more productivity species have smaller negative RY deviation compared to positive RY deviation of less productive species. Therefore, the suggestion by the reviewer “This is intuitively compatible with the idea that niche complementarity mitigates competition (CE>0)” is not correct.   

      When large species have large relative productivity increases, SE becomes positive. This is intuitively compatible with the idea that niche complementarity mitigates competition (CE>0), or that competitively superior species dominate mixtures and thereby driver overyielding (SE>0).

      The use of word “mitigate” indicates that the effects of niche complementarity and competition are in opposite directions, which is not true with biodiversity experiments based on replacement design. We have explained this in detail in our first responses to reviewers.    

      However, it is very important to understand that CE and SE capture the "statistical structure" of RY that underlies overyielding. Specifically, CE and SE are not the ultimate biological mechanisms that drive overyielding, and never were meant to be. CE also does not describe niche complementarity. Interpreting CE and SE as directly quantifying niche complementarity or resource competition, is simply wrong, although it sometimes is done. The criticism of the AP method thus in large part seems unwarranted. The alternative methods the authors discuss (lines 108-123) are based on very similar principles.

      Agree. However, If CE and SE are not meant to be biological mechanisms, as suggested by the reviewer, the argument “This is intuitively compatible with the idea that niche complementarity mitigates competition (CE>0), or that competitively superior species dominate mixtures and thereby driver overyielding (SE>0)” would be invalid.  

      Lines 108-123 are not on our method.   

      The authors now set out to develop a method that aims at linking response patterns to "more true" biological mechanisms.

      Assuming that "competitive dominance" is key to understanding mixture productivity, because "competitive interactions are the predominant type of interspecific relationships in plants", the authors introduce "partial density" monocultures, i.e. monocultures that have the same planting density for a species as in a mixture. The idea is that using these partial density monocultures as a reference would allow for isolating the effect of competition by the surrounding "species matrix".

      The authors argue that "To separate effects of competitive interactions from those of other species interactions, we would need the hypothesis that constituent species share an identical niche but differ in growth and competitive ability (i.e., absence of positive/negative interactions)." - I think the term interaction is not correctly used here, because clearly competition is an interaction, but the point made here is that this would be a zero-sum game.

      We did not say that competition is not an interaction.

      The authors use the ratio of productivity of partial density and full-density monocultures, divided by planting density, as a measure of "competitive growth response" (abbreviated as MG). This is the extra growth a plant individual produces when intraspecific competition is reduced.

      Here, I see two issues: first, this rests on the assumption that there is only "one mode" of competition if two species use the same resources, which may not be true, because intraspecific and interspecific competition may differ. Of course, one can argue that then somehow "niches" are different, but such a niche definition would be very broad and go beyond the "resource set" perspective the authors adopt. Second, this value will heavily depend on timing and the relationship between maximum initial growth rates and competitive abilities at high stand densities.

      True. Research findings indicate that biodiversity effect detected with AP is not constant.    

      The authors then progress to define relative competitive ability (RC), and this time simply uses monoculture biomass as a measure of competitive ability. To express this biomass in a standardized way, they express it as different from the mean of the other species and then divide by the maximum monoculture biomass of all species.

      I have two concerns here: first, if competitive ability is the capability of a species to preempt resources from a pool also accessed by another species, as the authors argued before, then this seems wrong because one would expect that a species can simply be more productive because it has a broader niche space that it exploits. This contradicts the very narrow perspective on competitive ability the authors have adopted. This also is difficult to reconcile with the idea that specialist species with a narrow niche would outcompete generalist species with a broad niche.

      Competitive ability is not necessarily associated with species niche space. Both generalist and specialist species can be more productive at a particular study site, as long as they are more capable of obtaining resources from a local pool. Remember, biodiversity experiments are conducted at a site of particular conditions, not across a range of species niche space at landscape level.

      Second, I am concerned by the mathematical form. Standardizing by the maximum makes the scaling dependent on a single value.

      As explained in lines 370-376, the mathematical form is a linear approximation as the relationship between competitive growth responses and species relative competitive ability is generally unknow but would be likely nonlinear. Once the relationship is determined in future research, the scaling factor is not needed.    

      As a final step, the authors calculate a "competitive expectation" for a species' biomass in the mixture, by scaling deviations from the expected yield by the product MG ⨯ RC. This would mean a species does better in a mixture when (1) it benefits most from a conspecific density reduction, and (2) has a relatively high biomass.

      Put simply, the assumption would be that if a species is productive in monoculture (high RC), it effectively does not "see" the competitors and then grows like it would be the sole species in the community, i.e. like in the partial density monoculture.

      Overall, I am not very convinced by the proposed method.

      Comments on revised version:

      Only minimal changes were made to the manuscript, and they do not address the main points that were raised.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This manuscript by Tao et al. reports on an effort to better specify the underlying interactions driving the effects of biodiversity on productivity in biodiversity experiments. The authors are especially concerned with the potential for competitive interactions to drive positive biodiversity-ecosystem functioning relationships by driving down the biomass of subdominant species. The authors suggest a new partitioning schema that utilizes a suite of partial density treatments to capture so-called competitive ability. While I agree with the authors that understanding the underlying drivers of biodiversity-ecosystem functioning relationships is valuable - I am unsure of the added value of this specific approach for several reasons.

      No responses.

      Comments on revised version:

      The authors changed only one minor detail in response to the last round of reviews.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript claims to provide a new null hypothesis for testing the effects of biodiversity on ecosystem functioning. It reports that the strength of biodiversity effects changes when this different null hypothesis is used. This main result is rather inevitable. That is, one expects a different answer when using a different approach. The question then becomes whether the manuscript's null hypothesis is both new and an improvement on the null hypothesis that has been in use in recent decades.

      Our approach adopts two hypotheses, null hypothesis that is also with the additive partitioning model and competitive hypothesis that is new. Null hypothesis assumes that inter- and intra-specie interactions are the same, while competitive hypothesis assumes that species differ in competitive ability and growth rate. Therefore, our approach is an extension of current approach. Our approach separates effects of competitive interactions from those of other species interactions, while the current approach does not.      

      Strengths:

      In general, I appreciate studies like this that question whether we have been doing it all wrong and I encourage consideration of new approaches.

      Weaknesses:

      Despite many sweeping critiques of previous studies and bold claims of novelty made throughout the manuscript, I was unable to find new insights. The manuscript fails to place the study in the context of the long history of literature on competition and biodiversity and ecosystem functioning.

      We have explained in our first responses that competition and biodiversity effects are studied in different experimental approaches, i.e., additive and replacement designs. Results from one approach are not compatible with those from the other. For example, competition effect with additive design is negative but generally positive with replacement design that is used extensively in biodiversity experiments. We have considered species competitive ability, density-growth relationship, and different effects of competitive interactions between additive and replacement design, while the current method does not reflect any of those.        

      The Introduction claims the new approach will address deficiencies of previous approaches, but after reading further I see no evidence that it addresses the limitations of previous approaches noted in the Introduction. Furthermore, the manuscript does not reproducibly describe the methods used to produce the results (e.g., in Table 1) and relies on simulations, claiming experimental data are not available when many experiments have already tested these ideas and not found support for them.

      We used simulation data, as partial density monocultures are generally not available in previous biodiversity experiments.

      Finally, it is unclear to me whether rejecting the 'new' null hypothesis presented in the manuscript would be of interest to ecologists, agronomists, conservationists, or others.

      Our null hypothesis is the same as the null hypothesis with the additive partitioning assuming that inter- and intra-species interactions are the same, while our competitive hypothesis assumes that species differ in competitive ability and growth rate. Rejecting null hypothesis means that inter- and intra-species interactions are different, whereas rejecting competitive hypothesis indicates existence of positive/negative species interactions. This would be interesting to everyone.       

      Comments on revised version:

      Please see review comments on the previous version of this manuscript. The authors have not revised their manuscript to address most of the issues previously raised by reviewers.

      No responses.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Do take reviews seriously. Even if you think the reviewers all are wrong and did not understand your work, then this seems to indicate that it was not clearly presented.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I can understand that the authors are perhaps frustrated with what they perceive as a basic misunderstanding of their goals and approach. This misunderstanding however, provides with it an opportunity to clarify. I believe that the authors have tried to clarify in rebutting our statements but would do better to clarify in the manuscript itself. If we reviewers, who are deeply invested in this field, don't understand the approach and its value, then it is likely that many readers will not as well.

      The additive partitioning has been publicly questioned at least for serval times since the conception of the method in 2001. Our work provides an alternative.

    1. Author response:

      We thank the editor and the three reviewers for the positive assessment and constructive feedback on how to improve our manuscript. We greatly appreciate that our work is considered valuable to the field, the recognition of the high-resolution model we presented, and the comments on our investigation of CisA’s role in the attachment and firing mechanism of the extended assembly. It is truly gratifying to know that our study contributes to expanding the current understanding of the biology of Streptomyces and the role of these functionally diverse and fascinating bacterial nanomachines.

      We have provided specific responses to each reviewer's comments below. In summary, we intend to address the following requested revisions:

      We will expand our bioinformatic analysis of CisA and provide additional information on the oligomeric state of CisA. We will also modify the text, figures, and figure legends to improve the clarity of our work and experimental procedures.

      Some reviewer comments would require additional experimental work, some of which would involve extensive optimization of experimental conditions. Because both lead postdoctoral researchers involved in this work have now left the lab, we currently do not have the capability to perform additional experimental work.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Contractile Injection Systems (CIS) are versatile machines that can form pores in membranes or deliver effectors. They can act extra or intracellularly. When intracellular they are positioned to face the exterior of the cell and hence should be anchored to the cell envelope. The authors previously reported the characterization of a CIS in Streptomyces coelicolor, including significant information on the architecture of the apparatus. However, how the tubular structure is attached to the envelope was not investigated. Here they provide a wealth of evidence to demonstrate that a specific gene within the CIS gene cluster, cisA, encodes a membrane protein that anchors the CIS to the envelope. More specifically, they show that:

      - CisA is not required for assembly of the structure but is important for proper contraction and CIS-mediated cell death

      - CisA is associated to the membrane (fluorescence microscopy, cell fractionation) through a transmembrane segment (lacZ-phoA topology fusions in E. coli)

      - Structural prediction of interaction between CisA and a CIS baseplate component<br /> - In addition they provide a high-resolution model structure of the >750-polypeptide Streptomyces CIS in its extended conformation, revealing new details of this fascinating machine, notably in the baseplate and cap complexes.

      All the experiments are well controlled including trans-complemented of all tested phenotypes.

      One important information we miss is the oligomeric state of CisA.

      While it would have been great to test the interaction between CisA and Cis11, to perform cryo-electron microscopy assays of detergent-extracted CIS structures to maintain the interaction with CisA, I believe that the toxicity of CisA upon overexpression or upon expression in E. coli render these studies difficult and will require a significant amount of time and optimization to be performed. It is worth mentioning that this study is of significant novelty in the CIS field because, except for Type VI secretion systems, very few membrane proteins or complexes responsible for CIS attachment have been identified and studied.

      We thank this reviewer for their highly supportive and positive comments on our manuscript. We are grateful for this reviewer’s recognition of the novelty of our study, particularly in the context of membrane proteins and complexes involved in CIS attachment.

      We agree that further experimental evidence on the direct interaction between CisA and Cis11 would have strengthened our model of CisA function. However, as noted by this reviewer, this additional work is technically challenging and currently beyond the scope of this study.

      We thank Reviewer #1 for suggesting discussing the potential oligomeric state of CisA. We will perform additional AlphaFold modelling of CisA and discuss the result of this analysis in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The overall question that is addressed in this study is how the S. coelicolor contractile injection system (CISSc) works and affects both cell viability and differentiation, which it has been implicated to do in previous work from this group and others. The CISSc system has been enigmatic in the sense that it is free-floating in the cytoplasm in an extended form and is seen in contracted conformation (i.e. after having been triggered) mainly in dead and partially lysed cells, suggesting involvement in some kind of regulated cell death. So, how do the structure and function of the CISSc system compare to those of related CIS from other bacteria, does it interact with the cytoplasmic membrane, how does it do that, and is the membrane interaction involved in the suggested role in stress-induced, regulated cell death? The authors address these questions by investigating the role of a membrane protein, CisA, that is encoded by a gene in the CIS gene cluster in S. coelicolor. Further, they analyse the structure of the assembled CISSc, purified from the cytoplasm of S. coelicolor, using single-particle cryo-electron microscopy.

      Strengths:

      The beautiful visualisation of the CIS system both by cryo-electron tomography of intact bacterial cells and by single-particle electron microscopy of purified CIS assemblies are clearly the strengths of the paper, both in terms of methods and results. Further, the paper provides genetic evidence that the membrane protein CisA is required for the contraction of the CISSc assemblies that are seen in partially lysed or ghost cells of the wild type. The conclusion that CisA is a transmembrane protein and the inferred membrane topology are well supported by experimental data. The cryo-EM data suggest that CisA is not a stable part of the extended form of the CISSc assemblies. These findings raise the question of what CisA does.

      We thank Reviewer #2 for the overall positive evaluation of our manuscript and the constructive criticism. 

      Weaknesses:

      The investigations of the role of CisA in function, membrane interaction, and triggering of contraction of CIS assemblies, are important parts of the paper and are highlighted in the title. However, the experimental data provided to answer these questions appear partially incomplete and not as conclusive as one would expect.

      We acknowledge that some aspects of our work have not been fully answered. We believe that providing additional experimental data is currently beyond the scope of this study. To improve this study, we will modify the text and clarify experimental procedures and figures where possible in the revised version of our manuscript.

      The stress-induced loss of viability is only monitored with one method: an in vivo assay where cytoplasmic sfGFP signal is compared to FM5-95 membrane stain. Addition of a sublethal level of nisin lead to loss of sfGFP signal in individual hyphae in the WT, but not in the cisA mutant (similarly to what was previously reported for a CIS-negative mutant). Technically, this experiment and the example images that are shown give rise to some concern. Only individual hyphal fragments are shown that do not look like healthy and growing S. coelicolor hyphae. Under the stated growth conditions, S. coelicolor strains would normally have grown as dense hyphal pellets. It is therefore surprising that only these unbranched hyphal fragments are shown in Fig. 4ab.

      We thank Reviewer #2 for their thoughtful criticism regarding our stress-induced viability assay and the data presented in Figure 4. We acknowledge the importance of ensuring that the presented images should reflect the physiological state of S. coelicolor under the stated growth conditions and recognize that hyphal fragments shown in Figure 4 do not fully capture the typical morphology of S. coelicolor. As pointed out by this reviewer, S. coelicolor grows in large hyphal clumps when cultured in liquid media, making the quantification of fluorescence intensities in hyphae expressing cytoplasmic GFP and stained with the membrane dye FM5-95 particularly challenging. To improve the image analysis and quantification of GFP and FM5-95-fluorescent intensities across the three S. coelicolor strains (wildtype, cisA deletion mutant and the complemented cisA mutant), we vortexed the cell samples briefly before imaging to break up hyphal clumps, increasing hyphal fragments. The hyphae shown in our images were selected as representative examples across three biological replicates. 

      Further, S. coelicolor would likely be in a stationary phase when grown 48 h in the rich medium that is stated, giving rise to concern about the physiological state of the hyphae that were used for the viability assay. It would be valuable to know whether actively growing mycelium is affected in the same way by the nisin treatment, and also whether the cell death effect could be detected by other methods.

      The reasoning behind growing S. coelicolor for 48 h before performing the fluorescence-based viability assay was that we (DOI: 10.1038/s41564-023-01341-x ) and others (e.g.: DOI: 10.1038/s41467-023-37087-7 ) previously showed that the levels of CIS particles peak at the transition from vegetative to reproductive/stationary growth, thus indicating that CIS activity is highest during this growth stage. The obtained results in this manuscript are in agreement with our previous study, in which we showed a similar effect on the viability of wildtype versus cis-deficient S. coelicolor strains (DOI: 10.1038/s41564-023-01341-x ) using nisin, the protonophore CCCP and UV light, and supported by biological replicate experiments and appropriate controls. Furthermore, our results are in agreement with the findings reported in a complementary study by Vladimirov et al. (DOI: 10.1038/s41467-023-37087-7 ) that used a different approach (SYTO9/PI staining of hyphal pellets) to demonstrate that CIS-deficient mutants exhibit decreased hyphal death. We agree that it would be interesting to test if actively growing hyphae respond differently to nisin treatment, and such experiments will be considered in future work. 

      Taken together, we believe that the results obtained from our fluorescence-based viability assay are consistent with data reported by others and provide strong experimental evidence that functional CIS mediate hyphal cell death. 

      The model presented in Fig. 5 suggests that stress leads to a CisA-dependent attachment of CIS assemblies to the cytoplasmic membrane, and then triggering of contraction, leading to cell death. This model makes testable predictions that have not been challenged experimentally. Given that sublethal doses of nisin seem to trigger cell death, there appear to be possibilities to monitor whether activation of the system (via CisA?) indeed leads to at least temporally increased interaction of CIS with the membrane.

      We thank this reviewer for their suggestions on how to test our model further. In the meantime, we have performed co-immunoprecipitation experiments using S. coelicolor cells that produced CisA-FLAG as bait and were treated with a sub-lethal nisin concentration for 0/15/45 min.  Mass spectrometry analysis of co-eluted peptides did not show the presence of CIS-associated peptides. While we cannot exclude the possibility that our experimental assay requires further optimization to successfully demonstrate a CisA-CIS interaction (e.g. optimization of the use of detergents to improve the solubilization of CisA from Streptomyces membrane, which is currently not an established method), an alternative and equally valid hypothesis is that the interaction between CIS particles and CisA is transient and therefore difficult to capture. We would like to mention that we did detect CisA peptides in crude purifications of CIS particles from nisin-stressed cells (Supplementary Table 2, manuscript: line 265/266), supporting our model that CisA associates with CIS particles in vivo.

      Further, would not the model predict that stress leads to an increased number of contracted CIS assemblies in the cytoplasm? No clear difference in length of the isolated assemblies if Fig. S7 is seen between untreated and nisin-exposed cells, and also no difference between assemblies from WT and cisA mutant hyphae.

      The reviewer is correct that there is no clear difference in length in the isolated CIS particles shown in Figure S7. This is in line with our results, which show that CisA is not required for the correct assembly of CIS particles and their ability to contract in the presence and absence of nisin treatment. The purpose of Figure S7 was to support this statement. We would like to note that the particles shown in Figure S7 were purified from cell lysates using a crude sheath preparation protocol, during which CIS particles generally contract irrespective of the presence or absence of CisA. Thus, we cannot comment on whether there is an increased number of contracted CIS assemblies in the cytoplasm of nisin-exposed cells. To answer this point, we would need to acquire additional cryo-electron tomograms (cyroET) of the different strains treated with nisin. We appreciate this reviewer's suggestions. However, cryoET is an extremely time and labour-intensive task, and given that we currently don’t know the exact dynamics of the CIS-CisA interaction following exogenous stress, we believe this experiment is beyond the scope of this work.

      The interaction of CisA with the CIS assembly is critical for the model but is only supported by Alphafold modelling, predicting interaction between cytoplasmic parts of CisA and Cis11 protein in the baseplate wedge. An experimental demonstration of this interaction would have strengthened the conclusions.

      We agree that direct experimental evidence of this interaction would have further strengthened the conclusions of our study, and we have extensively tried to provide additional experimental evidence. Unfortunately, due to the toxicity of CisA expression in E. coli and the transient nature of the interaction under our experimental conditions, we were unable to pursue direct biochemical or biophysical validation methods, such as co-purification or bacterial two-hybrid assays. While these challenges limited our ability to experimentally confirm the interaction, the AlphaFold predictions provided a valuable hypothesis and mechanistic insight into the role of CisA.

      The cisA mutant showed a similarly accelerated sporulation as was previously reported for CIS-negative strains, which supports the conclusion that CisA is required for function of CISSc. But the results do not add any new insights into how CIS/CisA affects the progression of the developmental life cycle and whether this effect has anything to do with the regulated cell death that is caused by CIS. The same applies to the effect on secondary metabolite production, with no further mechanistic insights added, except reporting similar effects of CIS and CisA inactivations.

      We thank this reviewer for their thoughtful feedback and for highlighting the connections between CisA, CIS function, and their effects on the developmental life cycle and secondary metabolite production in S. coelicolor. The main focus of this study was to provide further insight into how CIS contraction and firing are mediated in Streptomyces, and we used the analysis of accelerated sporulation and secondary metabolite production to assess the functionality of CIS in the presence or absence of CisA.

      We agree that we still don’t fully understand the nature of the signals that trigger CIS contraction, but we do know that the production of CIS assemblies seems to be an integral part of the Streptomyces multicellular life cycle as demonstrated in two independent previous studies (DOI: 10.1038/s41564-023-01341-x and DOI: 10.1038/s41467-023-37087-7 ). We propose that the assembly and firing of Streptomyces CIS particles could present a molecular mechanism to sacrifice only a part of the mycelium to either prevent the spread of local cellular damage or to provide additional nutrients for the rest of the mycelium and delay the terminal differentiation into spores and affect the production of secondary metabolites.

      We recognize the importance of understanding the regulation and mechanistic details underpinning the proposed CIS-mediated regulated cell death model. This will be further explored in future studies.

      Concluding remarks:

      The work will be of interest to anyone interested in contractile injection systems, T6SS, or similar machineries, as well for people working on the biology of streptomycetes. There is also a potential impact of the work in the understanding of how such molecular machineries could have been co-opted during evolution to become a mechanism for regulated cell death. However, this latter aspect remains still poorly understood. Even though this paper adds excellent new structural insights and identifies a putative membrane anchor, it remains elusive how the Streptomyces CIS may lead to cell death. It is also unclear what the advantage would be to trigger death of hyphal compartments in response to stress, as well as how such cell death may impact (or accelerate) the developmental progression. Finally, it is inescapable to wonder whether the Streptomyces CIS could have any role in protection against phage infection.

      We thank Reviewer #2 for their supportive assessment of our work. In the revised manuscript, we will briefly discuss the impact of functional CIS assemblies on Streptomyces development. We previously tested if Streptomyces could defend against phages but have not found any experimental evidence to support this idea. The analysis of phage defense mechanisms is an underdeveloped area in Streptomyces research, partly due to the currently limited availability of a diverse phage panel.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this work, Casu et al. have reported the characterization of a previously uncharacterized membrane protein CisA encoded in a non-canonical contractile injection system of Streptomyces coelicolor, CISSc, which is a cytosolic CISs significantly distinct from both intracellular membrane-anchored T6SSs and extracellular CISs. The authors have presented the first high-resolution structure of extended CISSc structure. It revealed important structural insights in this conformational state. To further explore how CISSc interacted with cytoplasmic membrane, they further set out to investigate CisA that was previously hypothesized to be the membrane adaptor. However, the structure revealed that it was not associated with CISSc. Using fluorescence microscope and cell fractionation assay, the authors verified that CisA is indeed a membrane-associated protein. They further determined experimentally that CisA had a cytosolic N-terminal domain and a periplasmic C-terminus. The functional analysis of cisA mutant revealed that it is not required for CISSc assembly but is essential for the contraction, as a result, the deletion significantly affects CISSc-mediated cell death upon stress, timely differentiation, as well as secondary metabolite production. Although the work did not resolve the mechanistic detail how CisA interacts with CISSc structure, it provides solid data and a strong foundation for future investigation toward understanding the mechanism of CISSc contraction, and potentially, the relation between the membrane association of CISSc, the sheath contraction and the cell death.

      Strengths:

      The paper is well-structured, and the conclusion of the study is supported by solid data and careful data interpretation was presented. The authors provided strong evidence on (1) the high-resolution structure of extended CISSc determined by cryo-EM, and the subsequent comparison with known eCIS structures, which sheds light on both its similarity and different features from other subtypes of eCISs in detail; (2) the topological features of CisA using fluorescence microscopic analysis, cell fractionation and PhoA-LacZα reporter assays, (3) functions of CisA in CISSc-mediated cell death and secondary metabolite production, likely via the regulation of sheath contraction.

      Weaknesses:

      The data presented are not sufficient to provide mechanistic details of CisA-mediated CISSc contraction, as authors are not able to experimentally demonstrate the direct interaction between CisA with baseplate complex of CISSc (hypothesized to be via Cis11 by structural modeling), since they could not express cisA in E. coli due to its potential toxicity. Therefore, there is a lack of biochemical analysis of direct interaction between CisA and baseplate wedge. In addition, there is no direct evidence showing that CisA is responsible for tethering CISSc to the membrane upon stress, and the spatial and temporal relation between membrane association and contraction remains unclear. Further investigation will be needed to address these questions in future.

      We thank Reviewer #3 for the supportive evaluation and constructive criticism of our study in the public and non-public review. We appreciate your recognition of the technical limitations of experimentally demonstrating a direct interaction between CisA and CIS baseplate complex, and we agree that further investigations in the future will hopefully provide a full mechanistic understanding of the spatiotemporal interaction of CisA and CIS particular and the subsequent CIS firing.

      To further improve the manuscript, we will revise the text and clarify figures and figure legends as suggested in the non-public review.

      Discussion:

      Overall, the work provides a valuable contribution to our understanding on the structure of a much less understood subtype of CISs, which is unique compared to both membrane-anchored T6SSs and host-membrane targeting eCISs. Importantly, the work serves as a good foundation to further investigate how the sheath contraction works here. The work contributes to expanding our understanding of the diverse CIS superfamilies.

      Thank you.

    1. Author response:

      Both reviewers made thoughtful and constructive comments, suggesting improvements that we are keen to provide. The comments fall under 3 headings (1) Further validation of the design, regarding both optical performance and utility, for both education and research (2) Further description and facilitation of the build process and (3) Further description of future plans, in particular plans for dissemination and long-term support. We think these requirements will be best served by adding new content to our Github site and our YouTube channel. We will create this new content and provide a revised manuscript in which these materials are linked from our existing narrative.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors showed the presence of Mtb in human liver biopsy samples of TB patients and reported that chronic infection of Mtb causes immune-metabolic dysregulation. Authors showed that Mtb replicates in hepatocytes in a lipid rich environment created by up regulating transcription factor PPARγ. Authors also reported that Mtb protects itself from anti-TB drugs by inducing drug metabolising enzymes.

      Strengths:

      It has been shown that Mtb induces storage of triacylglycerol in macrophages by induction of WNT6/ACC2 which helps in its replication and intracellular survival, however, creation of favorable replicative niche in hepatocytes by Mtb is not reported. It is known that Mtb infects macrophages and induces formation of lipid-laden foamy macrophages which eventually causes tissue destruction in TB patients. In a recent article it has been reported that "A terpene nucleoside from M. tuberculosis induces lysosomal lipid storage in foamy macrophages" that shows how Mtb manipulates host defense mechanisms for its survival. In this manuscript, authors reported the enhancement of lipid droplets in Mtb infected hepatocytes and convincingly showed that fatty acid synthesis and triacylglycerol formation is important for growth of Mtb in hepatocytes. The authors also showed the molecular mechanism for accumulation of lipid and showed that the transcription factor associated with lipid biogenesis, PPARγ and adipogenic genes were upregulated in Mtb infected cells.

      The comparison of gene expression data between macrophages and hepatocytes by authors is important which indicates that Mtb modulates different pathways in different cell type as in macrophages it is related to immune response whereas, in hepatocytes it is related to metabolic pathways.

      Authors also reported that Mtb residing in hepatocytes showed drug tolerance phenotype due to up regulation of enzymes involved in drug metabolism and showed that cytochrome P450 monooxygenase that metabolize rifampicin and NAT2 gene responsible for N-acetylation of isoniazid were up regulated in Mtb infected cells.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive feedback and for highlighting the strengths of our study.

      Weaknesses:

      There are reports of hepatic tuberculosis in pulmonary TB patients especially in immune-compromised patients, therefore finding granuloma in human liver biopsy samples is not surprising.

      Mtb infected hepatic cells showed induced DME and NAT and this could lead to enhanced metabolism of drug by hepatic cells as a result Mtb in side HepG2 cells get exposed to reduced drug concentration and show higher tolerance to drug. The authors mentioned that " hepatocyte resident Mtb may display higher tolerance to rifampicin". In my opinion higher tolerance to drugs is possible only when DME of Mtb inside is up regulated or the target is modified. Although, in the end authors mentioned that drug tolerance phenotype can be better attributed to host intrinsic factors rather than Mtb efflux pumps. It may be better if the Drug tolerant phenotype section can be rewritten to clarify the facts.

      We agree that several case studies regarding liver infection in pulmonary TB patients have been reported in the literature, however this report is the first comprehensive study that establishes hepatocytes to be a favourable niche for Mtb survival and growth.

      Drug tolerance is a phenomenon that is exhibited by the bacteria and in the course of host-pathogen interactions, can be influenced by both intrinsic (bacterial) and extrinsic (host-mediated) factors. Multiple examples of tolerance being attributed to host driven factors can be found in literature (PMID 32546788, PMID: 28659799, PMID: 32846197). Our studies demonstrate that Mtb infected hepatocytes create a drug tolerant environment by modulating the expression of Drug modifying enzymes (DMEs) in the hepatocytes.

      As suggested by the reviewer we will rewrite the drug tolerant phenotype section.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      The manuscript by Sarkar et al has demonstrated the infection of liver cells/hepatocytes with Mtb and the significance of liver cells in the replication of Mtb by reprogramming lipid metabolism during tuberculosis. Besides, the present study shows that similar to Mtb infection of macrophages (reviewed in Chen et al., 2024; Toobian et al., 2021), Mtb infects liver cells but with a greater multiplication owing to consumption of enhanced lipid resources mediated by PPARg that could be cleared by its inhibitors. The strength of the study lies in the clinical evaluation of the presence of Mtb in human autopsied liver samples from individuals with miliary tuberculosis and the presence of a clear granuloma-like structure. The interesting observation is of granuloma-like structure in liver which prompts further investigations in the field.

      The modulation of lipid synthesis during Mtb infection, such as PPARg upregulation, appears generic to different cell types including both liver cells and macrophage cells. It is also known that infection affect PPARγ expression and activity in hepatocytes. It is also known that this can lead to lipid droplet accumulation in the liver and the development of fatty liver disease (as shown for HCV). This study is in a similar line for M.tb infection. As the liver is the main site for lipid regulation, the availability of lipid resources is greater and higher is the replication rate. In short, the observations from the study confirm the earlier studies with these additional cell types. It is known that higher the lipid content, the greater are Lipid Droplet-positive Mtb and higher is the drug resistance (Mekonnen et al., 2021). The DMEs of liver cells add further to the phenotype.

      We thank the reviewer for emphasizing on the strengths of our study and how it can lead to further investigations in the field.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      This manuscript by Sarkar et al. examines the infection of the liver and hepatocytes during M. tuberculosis infection. They demonstrate that aerosol infection of mice and guinea pigs leads to appreciable infection of the liver as well as the lung. Transcriptomic analysis of HepG2 cells showed differential regulation of metabolic pathways including fatty acid metabolic processing. Hepatocyte infection is assisted by fatty acid synthesis in the liver and inhibiting this caused reduced Mtb growth. The nuclear receptor PPARg was upregulated by Mtb infection and inhibition or agonism of its activity caused a reduction or increase in Mtb growth, respectively, supporting data published elsewhere about the role of PPARg in lung macrophage Mtb infection. Finally, the authors show that Mtb infection of hepatocytes can cause upregulation of enzymes that metabolize antibiotics, resulting in increased tolerance of these drugs by Mtb in the liver.

      Overall, this is an interesting paper on an area of TB research where we lack understanding. However, some additions to the experiments and figures are needed to improve the rigor of the paper and further support the findings. Most importantly, although the authors show that Mtb can infect hepatocytes in vitro, they fail to describe how bacteria get from the lungs to the liver in an aerosolized infection. They also claim that "PPARg activation resulting in lipid droplets formation by Mtb might be a mechanism of prolonging survival within hepatocytes" but do not show a direct interaction between PPARg activation and lipid droplet formation and lipid metabolism, only that PPARg promotes Mtb growth. Thus, the correlations with PPARg appear to be there but causation, implied in the abstract and discussion, is not proven.

      The human photomicrographs are important and overall, well done (lung and liver from the same individuals is excellent). However, in lines 120-121, the authors comment on the absence of studies on the precise involvement of different cells in the liver. In this study there is no attempt to immunophenotype the nature of the cells harboring Mtb in these samples (esp. hepatocytes). Proving that hepatocytes specifically harbor the bacteria in these human samples would add significant rigor to the conclusions made.

      We thank the reviewer for nicely summarizing our manuscript.

      Our study establishes the involvement of liver and hepatocytes in pulmonary TB infection in mice. Understanding the mechanism of bacterial dissemination from the lung to the liver in aerosol infections demands a detailed separate study.

      Figure 6E and 6F shows how PPARγ agonist and antagonist modulate (increase and decrease respectively) bacterial growth in hepatocytes (further supported by the CFU data in Supplementary Figure 9B). Again, the number of lipid droplets in hepatocytes increase and decrease with the application of PPARγ agonist and antagonist respectively as shown in Figure 6G and 6H. Collectively, these studies provide strong evidence that PPARγ activation leads to more lipid droplets that support better Mtb growth.

      We thank the reviewer for finding our human photomicrographs convincing. In the manuscript, we provide evidence for the direct involvement of the hepatocytes (and liver) in Mtb infection. We perform detailed immunophenotyping of hepatocyte cells in the mice model with ASPGR1 (asialoglycoprotein receptor 1) and in the revised version of record, we will further stain the infected hepatocytes with anti-albumin antibody.

  2. Dec 2024
    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #3:

      Concerns and comments on current version:

      The revision has improved the manuscript but, in my opinion, remains inadequate. While most of my requested changes have been made, I do not see an expansion of Fig1A legend to incorporate more details about the analysis. Lacking details of methodology was a concern from all reviewers.

      To address this concern, we expanded Fig.1A legend, and also significantly expanded the text describing experimental design, to also include the description of the data analysis approach.

      “BCR repertoires libraries were obtained using the 5’-RACE (Rapid Amplification of cDNA Ends) protocol as previously described21 and sequenced with 150+150 bp read length. This approach allowed us to achieve high coverage for the obtained libraries (Table S1) to reveal information on clonal composition, CDR-H3 properties, IgM/IgG/IgA isotypes and somatic hypermutation load within CDR-H3. For B cell clonal lineage reconstruction and phylogenetic analysis, however, 150+150 bp read length is suboptimal because it does not cover V-gene region outside CDR-H3, where hypermutations also occur. Therefore, to verify our conclusions based on the data obtained by 150+150 bp sequencing (“short repertoires”), for some of our samples we also generated BCR libraries by IG RNA Multiplex protocol (See Materials and Methods) and sequenced them at 250+250 bp read length (“long repertoires”). Libraries obtained by this protocol cover V gene sequence starting from CDR-H1 and capture most of the hypermutations in the V gene. Conclusions about clonal lineage phylogeny were drawn only when they were corroborated by “long repertoire” analysis.

      For BCR repertoire reconstruction from sequencing data, we first performed unique molecular identifier (UMI) extraction and error correction (reads/UMI threshold = 3 for 5`RACE and 4 for IG Multiplex libraries). Then, we used MIXCR58 software to assemble reads into clonotypes, determine germline V, D, and J genes, isotypes, and find the boundaries of target regions, such as CDR-H3. Only

      UMI counts, and not read counts, were used for quantitative analysis. Clonotypes derived from only one UMI were excluded from the analysis of individual clonotype features but were used to analyze clonal lineages and hypermutation phylogeny, where sample size was crucial. Samples with 50 or less clonotypes left after preprocessing were excluded from the analysis.”

      Similarly, the 'fragmented' narrative was a concern of all reviewers. These matters have not been dealt with adequately enough - there are parts of the manuscript which remain fragmented and confusing.

      Unfortunately, the reviewers do not give us a hint as to which parts of the text are the most problematic in their opinion. We identified the parts describing physicochemical properties of CDR3s, Intratumoral heterogeneity and Intra-LN heterogeneity as the most problematic, and edited these parts significantly. Also, we significantly edited the Discussion section (please see the Comparison file for details). Other parts sections were also edited to improve readability and clarity.

      The narrative and analysis does not explain how the plasma cell bias has been dealt with adequately and in fact is simply just confusing. There is a paragraph at the beginning of the discussion re the plasma cell bias, which should be re-written to be clearer and moved to have a prominent place early in the results. Why are these results not properly presented? They are key for interpretation of the manuscript. Furthermore, the sorted plasma cell sequencing analysis also has only been performed on two patients.

      In response to this concern, we moved the section describing plasma cell bias in the bulk BCR repertoires to the main text.

      Another issue is that some disease cohorts are entirely composed of patients with metastasis, some without but metastasis is not mentioned. Metastasis has been shown to impact the immune landscape.

      Intrinsic heterogeneity of the cohort is indeed one of the weaknesses of our work, which could negatively impact the statistical significance of our results and, as a consequence, mask certain observations or make them less statistically significant. We mention this in the discussion section. It should not, in our understanding, lead to any false conclusions. We did not, however, pool data from primary and metastatic tumor samples, and all tumor samples that we mention are primary tumors.

      The following part of a sentence was added to the discussion:

      “...which could negatively impact the statistical significance of our results and, as a consequence, mask certain observations or make them less statistically significant.”

      A reviewer brought up a concern about the overlap analysis and I also asked for an explanation on why this F2 metric was chosen. Part of the rebuttal argues that another metric was explored showing similar results, thus the conclusion reached is reasonable. Remarkably, these data are not only omitted from the manuscript, but are not even provided for the reviewers.

      We did not intend to conceal any data from the reviewers, and we now added the panel for D metric to the S1 figure. We would also like to point out that the panel describing R metric for repertoire overlaps (a measure of similarity of overlapping clonotype frequencies), was included in the first version of the S2 Figure (now S1 Figure), and it also showed a similar trend. We hope that now the data are fully conclusive.

      This manuscript certainly includes some interesting and useful work. Unfortunately, a comprehensive re-write was required to make the work much clearer and easier to understand and this has not been realized.

      Again, we thank the reviewers for their thorough evaluation, and hopefully we could make the text clearer in the second reviewed version.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this work, a screening platform is presented for rapid and cost-effective screening of candidate genes involved in Fragile Bone Disorders. The authors validate the approach of using crispants, generating FO mosaic mutants, to evaluate the function of specific target genes in this particular condition. The design of the guide RNAs is convincingly described, while the effectiveness of the method is evaluated to 60% to 92% of the respective target genes being presumably inactivated. Thus, injected F0 larvae can be directly used to investigate the consequences of this inactivation.

      Skeletal formation is then evaluated at 7dpf and 14dpf, first using a transgenic reporter line revealing fluorescent osteoblasts, and second using alizarin-red staining of mineralized structures. In general, it appears that the osteoblast-positive areas are more often affected in the crispants compared to the mineralized areas, an observation that appears to correlate with the observed reduced expression of bglap, a marker for mature osteoblasts, and the increased expression of col1a1a in more immature osteoblasts.

      Finally, the injected fish (except two lines that revealed high mortality) are also analyzed at 90dpf, using alizarin red staining and micro-CT analysis, revealing an increased incidence of skeletal deformities in the vertebral arches, fractures, as well as vertebral fusions and compressions for all crispants except those for daam2. Finally, the Tissue Mineral Density (TMD) as determined by micro-CT is proposed as an important marker for investigating genes involved in osteoporosis.

      Taken together, this manuscript is well presented, the data are clear and well analyzed, and the methods are well described. It makes a compelling case for using the crispant technology to screen the function of candidate genes in a specific condition, as shown here for bone disorders.

      Strengths:

      Strengths are the clever combination of existing technologies from different fields to build a screening platform. All the required methods are comprehe Zebrafish tanks_13062024nsively described.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for highlighting the strengths of our paper.  

      Weaknesses:

      One may have wished to bring one or two of the crispants to the stage of bona fide mutants, to confirm the results of the screening, however, this is done for some of the tested genes as laid out in the discussion.

      We thank the reviewer for their comment. We would like to point out that indeed similar phenotypes have been observed in existing models, as mentioned in the discussion section.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      More and more genes and genetic loci are being linked to bone fragility disorders like osteoporosis and osteogenesis imperfecta through GWAS and clinical sequencing. In this study, the authors seek to develop a pipeline for validating these new candidate genes using crispant screening in zebrafish. Candidates were selected based on GWAS bone density evidence (4 genes) or linkage to OI cases plus some aspect of bone biology (6 genes). NGS was performed on embryos injected with different gRNAs/Cas9 to confirm high mutagenic efficacy and off-target cutting was verified to be low. Bone growth, mineralization, density, and gene expression levels were carefully measured and compared across crispants using a battery of assays at three different stages.

      Strengths:

      (1) The pipeline would be straightforward to replicate in other labs, and the study could thus make a real contribution towards resolving the major bottleneck of candidate gene validation.

      (2) The study is clearly written and extensively quantified.

      (3) The discussion attempts to place the phenotypes of different crispant lines into the context of what is already known about each gene's function.

      (4) There is added value in seeing the results for the different crispant lines side by side for each assay.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for highlighting the strengths of our paper.  

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The study uses only well-established methods and is strategy-driven rather than question/hypothesis-driven.

      We thank the reviewer for this correct remark. The mayor aim of this study was to establish a workflow for rapid in vivo functional screening of candidate genes across a broad range of FBDs. 

      (2) Some of the measurements are inadequately normalized and not as specific to bone as suggested:

      (a) The measurements of surface area covered by osteoblasts or mineralized bone (Figure 1) should be normalized to body size. The authors note that such measures provide "insight into the formation of new skeletal tissue during early development" and reflect "the quantity of osteoblasts within a given structure and [is] a measure of the formation of bone matrix." I agree in principle, but these measures are also secondarily impacted by the overall growth and health of the larva. The surface area data are normalized to the control but not to the size/length of each fish - the esr1 line in particular appears quite developmentally advanced in some of the images shown, which could easily explain the larger bone areas. The fact that the images in Figure S5 were not all taken at the same magnification further complicates this interpretation.

      We thank the reviewer for this detailed and insightful remark. We agree with the reviewer and recognize that the results may be influenced by size differences. However, we do not normalize for size, as variations in growth were considered as part of the phenotypic outcome. This consideration has been addressed in the discussion section.

      Line 335-338: ‘Although the measurements of osteoblast-positive and mineralized surface areas may be influenced by size differences among some of the crispants, normalization to size parameters was not conducted, as variations in growth were considered integral to the phenotypic outcome.’

      Line 369: ‘Phenotypic variability in these zebrafish larvae can be attributed to several factors, including crispant mosaicism, allele heterogeneity, environmental factors, differences in genomic background and development, and slightly variable imaging positioning.’

      (b) Some of the genes evaluated by RT-PCR in Figure 2 are expressed in other tissues in addition to bone (as are the candidate genes themselves); because whole-body samples were used for these assays, there is a nonzero possibility that observed changes may be rooted in other, non-skeletal cell types.

      We thank the reviewer for this valuable comment. We acknowledge that the genes assessed by RT-PCR are expressed in other tissues beyond bone. This consideration has been addressed in the discussion section.

      Line 362-365: “However, it is important to note that the genes evaluated by RT-PCR are not exclusively expressed in bone tissue. Since whole-body samples were used for expression analysis, there is a possibility that the observed changes in gene expression may be influenced by other non-skeletal cell types”.

      (3) Though the assays evaluate bone development and quality at several levels, it is still difficult to synthesize all the results for a given gene into a coherent model of its requirement.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s  remark. We acknowledge that the results for the larval stages exhibit variability, making it challenging to synthesize them into a coherent model. However, it is important to emphasize that all adult crispant consistently display a skeletal phenotype. Consequently, the feasibility and reproducibility of this screening method are primarily focusing on the adult stages. This consideration has been addressed in the discussion section of the manuscript.

      Line 391-399: ‘In adult crispants, the skeletal phenotype was generally more penetrant. All crispants showed malformed arches, a majority displayed vertebral fractures and fusions and some crispants exhibited distinct quantitative variations in vertebral body measurements. This confirmed the role of the selected genes in skeletal development and homeostasis and their involvement in skeletal disease and established the crispant approach as a valid approach for rapidly providing in vivo gene function data to support candidate gene identification.’

      (4) Several additional caveats to crispant analyses are worth noting:

      (a) False negatives, i.e. individual fish may not carry many (or any!) mutant alleles. The crispant individuals used for most assays here were not directly genotyped, and no control appears to have been used to confirm successful injection. The authors therefore cannot rule out that some individuals were not, in fact, mutagenized at the loci of interest, potentially due to human error. While this doesn't invalidate the results, it is worth acknowledging the limitation.

      We thank the reviewer for this valuable remark. We recognize the fact that working with crispants has certain limitations, including the possibility that some individuals may carry few or no mutant alleles. To address this issue, we use 10 individual crispants during the larval stage and 5 during the adult stage. Although some individuals may lack the mutant alleles, using multiple fish helps reduce the risk of false negatives.

      Furthermore, we perform NGS analysis on pools of 10 embryos from the same injection clutch as the fish used in the various assays to assess the indel efficiency. While there remains a possibility of false negatives, the overall indel efficiency, as indicated by our NGS analysis,  is high (>90%), thereby reducing the likelihood of having crispants with very low indel efficiency. We included this in the discussion.

      Line 387-390: ‘While there remains a possibility of false negatives, the overall indel efficiency, as indicated by our NGS analysis,  is high (>90%), thereby reducing the likelihood of having crispants with very low indel efficiency.’

      (b) Many/most loci identified through GWAS are non-coding and not easily associated with a nearby gene. The authors should discuss whether their coding gene-focused pipeline could be applied in such cases and how that might work.

      The authors thank the reviewer for this insightful comment. Our study is focused on strong candidate genes rather than non-coding variants. We recognize that the use of this workflow poses challenges for analyzing non-coding variants, which represents a limitation of the crispant approach. We have addressed this issue in the discussion section of the manuscript.

      Line 131: ‘Gene-based’

      Line 453: ‘Gene-based’

      Line 311-314: ‘It is important to note that this study focused on candidate genes for osteoporosis, not on the role of specific variants identified in GWAS studies. Non-coding variants for instance, which are often identified in GWAS studies,  present significant challenges in terms of functional validation and interpretation.’

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript "Crispant analysis in zebrafish as a tool for rapid functional screening of disease-causing genes for bone fragility" describes the use of CRISPR gene editing coupled with phenotyping mosaic zebrafish larvae to characterize functions of genes implicated in heritable fragile bone disorders (FBDs). The authors targeted six high-confident candidate genes implicated in severe recessive forms of FBDs and four Osteoporosis GWAS-implicated genes and observed varied developmental phenotypes across all crispants, in addition to adult skeletal phenotypes.

      A major strength of the paper is the streamlined method that produced significant phenotypes for all candidate genes tested.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for highlighting the strengths of our paper.  

      A major weakness is a lack of new insights into underlying mechanisms that may contribute to disease phenotypes, nor any clear commonalities across gene sets. This was most evident in the qRT-PCR analysis of select skeletal developmental genes, which all showed varied changes in fold and direction, but with little insight into the implications of the results.

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful remark. We want to emphasize that this study focusses on establishing a new screening method for candidate genes involved in FBDs, rather than investigating the underlying mechanisms contributing to disease phenotypes. However, to investigate the underlying mechanisms in these crispants, the creation of bona fide mutants is necessary. We have included this consideration in the discussion.

      Furthermore, we acknowledge that the results for the larval stages exhibit variability, which can complicate the interpretation of these findings. This is particularly true for the RT-PCR analysis, where whole-body samples were used, raising the possibility that other tissues may influence the expression results. Therefore, our primary focus is on the adult stages, as all crispants display a skeletal phenotype at this age. We have elaborated on this point in the discussion.

      Line 462-463: ‘Moreover, to explore the underlying mechanisms contributing to disease phenotypes, it is essential to establish stable knockout mutants derived from the crispants’.

      Line 391-399: ‘In adult crispants, the skeletal phenotype was generally more penetrant. All crispants showed malformed arches, a majority displayed vertebral fractures and fusions and some crispants exhibited distinct quantitative variations in vertebral body measurements. This confirmed the role of the selected genes in skeletal development and homeostasis and their involvement in skeletal disease and established the crispant approach as a valid approach for rapidly providing in vivo gene function data to support candidate gene identification.’

      Ultimately, the authors were able to show their approach is capable of connecting candidate genes with perturbation of skeletal phenotypes. It was surprising that all four GWAS candidate genes (which presumably were lower confidence) also produced a result.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. We would like to direct attention to the discussion section, where we offer a possible explanation for the observation that all four GWAS candidate genes produce a skeletal phenotype.

      Line 460-410: 'The more pronounced and earlier phenotypes in these zebrafish crispants are most likely attributed to the quasi knock-out state of the studied genes, while more common less impactful variants in the same genes result in typical late-onset osteoporosis (Laine et al., 2013) . This phenomenon is also observed in knock-out mouse models for these genes (Melville et al., 2014)(Coughlin et al., 2019).’

      These authors have previously demonstrated that crispants recapitulate skeletal phenotypes of stable mutant lines for a single gene, somewhat reducing the novelty of the study.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and appreciate their concern. We have indeed demonstrated that crispants can recapitulate the skeletal phenotypes observed in stable mutant lines for the osteoporosis gene LRP5. However, we would like to highlight that the current study represents the first large-scale screening of candidate genes associated with bone disorders, including genes related to both OI and osteoporosis. We have included this information in both the abstract and the discussion

      Line 60-62: ‘We advocate for a novel comprehensive approach that integrates various techniques and evaluates distinct skeletal and molecular profiles across different developmental and adult stages.’

      Line 456-457: ‘While this work represents a pioneering effort in establishing a screening platform for skeletal diseases, it offers opportunities for future improvement and refinement.’

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Figure 1a: what does the differential shading of the bone elements represent? Explain in the legend.

      The differential shading doesn't represent anything specific. It's simply used to enhance the visual appeal and to help distinguish between the different structures. We removed the shading in the figure.

      (2) Supplementary Figures 2-5: should the numbering of these figures be also in order of appearance in the text? I understand that the authors prefer to associate the transgenic and the alizarin red-stained specimens, however, the reading would be easier that way.

      We changed this accordingly.

      (3) Lines 275-276: "no significant differences in standard length (Figure 4a)": should be Figure 4b.

      The suggested changes are incorporated in the manuscript.

      Line 276-277: ‘Among the eight crispants that successfully matured into adulthood, none exhibited significant differences in standard length and head size (n=5 fish per crispant) (Figure 4b).’

      (4) Line 277 "larger eye diameter": should be Figure 4b.

      The suggested changes are incorporated in the manuscript.

      Line 378: ‘However, esr1 crispants were observed to have notably larger eye diameters (Figure 4b).’

      (5) Line 280: "no obvious abnormalities were detected (Figure 4b,c)": should be Figure 4a, c. Note that the authors may reconsider the a, b, c numbering in Figure 4 by inverting a and b.

      The suggested changes are incorporated in the manuscript.

      Line 278-281: ‘All these crispants demonstrated various abnormalities in the caudal part of the vertebral column such as fusions, compressions, fractures, or arch malformations, except for daam2 crispants where no obvious abnormalities were detected (Figure 4a,c; Supplementary Figure 6).’

      (6) Table 2: This table, which recapitulates all the results presented in the manuscript, is in the end the centerpiece of the work. It is however difficult to read in its present form. Three suggestions:

      - Transpose it such that each gene has its own column, and the lines give the results for the different measurements

      - Place the measurements that result in "ns" for all crispants at the end (bottom) of the table.

      - Maybe bring the measurements at 7dpf, 14dpf, and 90 dpf together.

      We agree with the reviewer and have added a new table where we transposed the data. However, we chose not to place the measurements that resulted in 'ns' for all crispants at the end of the table, as we believe it is important to track the evolution of the phenotype over time. Where possible, we have grouped the measurements for 7 dpf and 14 dpf together.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) It would help to justify why these particular area measurements are appropriate for this set of candidate genes, which were selected based on putative links to bone quality rather than bone development.

      The selected methods are among the most commonly used to evaluate bone phenotypes. They are straightforward to reproduce, as well as cost- and time-effective. The strength of this approach lies in its use of simple, reproducible techniques that form the foundation for characterizing bone development.  Although the candidate genes were chosen based on their putative links to bone quality, early skeletal phenotypes can already be observed during bone development.

      The mineralized surface area of the total head and specific head structures was selected to evaluate the degree of mineralization in early skeletal development, as mineralization is a direct indicator of bone formation. Additionally, the osteoblast-positive surface areas were measured to provide insight into the formation of new skeletal tissue during early development. Osteoblasts, as active bone-forming cells, are essential for understanding bone growth and the dynamics of skeletal phenotypes.

      Examples in the manuscript:

      Line 212-214: ‘The osteoblast-positive areas in both the total head and the opercle were then quantified to gain insight into the formation of new skeletal tissue during early development.’

      Line 221-223: ‘Subsequently, Alizarin Red S (ARS) staining was conducted on the same 7 and 14 dpf crispant zebrafish larvae in order to evaluate the degree of mineralization in the early skeletal structures.’

      (2) Reword: The opercle bone is the earliest forming bone of the opercular series, and appears to be what the authors are referring to as the "operculum" at 7-14 dpf. The operculum is the larger structure (gill cover) in which the opercle is embedded. It would be more accurate to simply refer to the opercle at these stages.

      We agree with this comment and changed the text accordingly.

      (3) Define BMD and TMD at first usage.

      BMD and TMD are now defined in the manuscript.

      Line 41-43: ‘Six genes associated with severe recessive forms of Osteogenesis Imperfecta (OI) and four genes associated with bone mineral density (BMD), a key osteoporosis indicator, identified through genome-wide association studies (GWAS) were selected.’

      Line 286-288: ‘For each of the vertebral centra, the length, tissue mineral density (TMD), volume, and thickness were determined and tested for statistical differences between groups using a regression-based statistical test (Supplementary Figure 7).’

      (4) It would be helpful to note the grouping of candidates into OI vs. BMD GWAS throughout the figures.

      We agree with this comment and added this to all figure legends.

      ‘The first four genes are associated with the pathogenesis of osteoporosis, while the last six are linked to osteogenesis imperfecta’

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Major points:

      (1) For the Results, it would be useful to the Reader to justify the selection of human candidate genes and their associated zebrafish orthologs to model skeletal functions. For example, what are variants identified from human studies, and do they impact functional domains? Are these domains and/or proteins conserved between humans/zebrafish? Is there evidence of skeletal expression in humans/zebrafish?

      Supplementary Table 4 lists the selected human candidate genes with reported mutations and/or polymorphisms associated with both skeletal and non-skeletal phenotypes. The table also includes additional findings from studies in mice and zebrafish. An extra column was now added to indicate gene conservation between human and zebrafish. We consulted UniProt (https://www.uniprot.org) and ZFIN (https://zfin.org) to assess the skeletal expression of these genes in human and zebrafish. All genes showed expression in the trabecular bone and/or bone marrow in humans, as well as in bone elements in zebrafish. We added this in the discussion.

      Line 309: ‘All selected genes show skeletal expression in both human and zebrafish.’

      Supplemental table 4 legend: ‘The conservation between human and zebrafish is reported in the last column.’

      As part of this, some version of Supplementary Table 4 might be included as a main display to introduce the targeted genes, ideally separated by rare (recessive OI) vs. common disease (osteoporosis). In the case of common disease and GWAS hits, how did authors narrow in on candidate genes (which often have Mbp-scale associated regions spanning multiple genes)? Further, what is the evidence that the mechanism of action of the GWAS variant is haploinsufficiency modeled by their crispant zebrafish?

      We have kept Supplementary Table 4 in the supplementary material but have referred to it earlier in the manuscript’s introduction. Consequently, the table has been renumbered from ‘Supplementary Table 4’  to ‘Supplementary Table 1’.

      The selection of genes potentially involved in the pathogenesis of osteoporosis is based on the data from the GWAS catalog, which annotates SNPs using the Ensemble mapping pipeline. The available annotation on their online search interface includes any Ensemble genes to which a SNP maps, or the closest upstream and downstream gene within a 50kb window. Four genes were selected for this screening method based on the criteria outlined in the results section. In this study, we aim to evaluate the general involvement of specific genes in bone metabolism, rather than to model a specific variant.

      Line 135-136 and 309-311: ‘An overview of the selected genes with observed mutant phenotypes in human, mice and zebrafish is provided in Supplementary Table 1.’

      (2) Using the crispant approach does not impact maternally-deposited RNAs that would dampen early developmental phenotypes. Considering the higher variability in larval phenotypes, perhaps the maternal effect plays a role. The authors might investigate developmental expression profiles of their genes using existing RNA-seq datasets such as from White et al (doi: 10.7554/eLife.30860).

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and agree with the possibility that maternally-deposited RNAs might have an impact on early developmental phenotypes. We included this in the discussion.

      Line 369-372: ‘Phenotypic variability in these zebrafish larvae can be attributed to several factors, including crispant mosaicism, allele heterogeneity, environmental factors, differences in genomic background and development, maternally-deposited RNAs, and slightly variable imaging positioning.’

      (3) While making comparisons within a clutch of mutant vs scrambled control is crucial, it is also important to ensure phenotypes are not specific to a single clutch. Do phenotypes remain consistent across different crosses/clutches?

      Yes, phenotypes remain consistent across different crosses and clutches. We included images from a second clutch in the Supplementary material (Supplementary Figure 8) and refereed to it in the discussion.

      Line 394-397: ‘Additionally, these skeletal malformations were consistently observed in a second clutch of crispants (Supplementary Figure 8), underscoring the reproducibility of these phenotypic features across independent clutches.’

      (4) Understanding that antibodies may not exist for many of the selected genes for zebrafish, authors should verify haploinsufficiency using an RT-qPCR of targeted genes in crispants vs. controls.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion to use RT-qPCR to examine expression levels of the targeted genes in crispants. However, previous experience suggests that relying on RNA expression to verify haploinsufficiency in zebrafish can be challenging. In zebrafish KO mutants, RT-qPCR often still detects gene transcripts, potentially due to incomplete nonsense-mediated decay (NMD) of the mutated mRNA, which may allow residual expression even in the absence of functional protein. As a more definitive approach, we prefer to use antibodies to confirm haploinsufficiency at the protein level. However, as the reviewer noted, generating and applying specific antibodies in zebrafish remains challenging.

      (5) Please indicate how parametric vs. non-parametric statistical tests were selected for datasets.

      We initially selected the parametric unpaired t-test, assuming the data were normally distributed with similar variances between groups. We verified the assumption of equal variances using the F-test, which was not significant across all assays. However, we did not assess the normality of the data directly, meaning we cannot confirm the normality assumption required for the t-test. Given this, we have opted to use the non-parametric Mann-Whitney U test, which does not require assumptions of normality, to ensure the robustness of our statistical analyses. We changed the Figures, the figure legends and the text accordingly.

      (6) In the figures and tables, I recommend adding notation showing the grouping of the first four genes as GWAS osteoporosis, the next three genes as osteoblast differentiation, the next two genes as bone mineralization, and the final gene as collagen transport to orient the reader. One might expect there to be a clustering of phenotypic outcomes based on the selection of genes, and it would be easier to follow this. This would be particularly useful to include in Table 2.

      Our primary objective is to assess the feasibility and reproducibility of the crispant screen rather than performing an in-depth pathway analysis or categorizing genes by biological processes. For this purpose, we have organized candidate genes based on their relevance to osteoporosis and Osteogenesis Imperfecta, without subdividing them further. We have clarified this focus in the figure legends, as suggested in an earlier recommendation.

      (7) For Figure 1, consider adding a smaller zoomed version of 1a embedded in each sub-figure with each measured element highlighted to improve readability.

      We agree with this comment and changed the figure accordingly.

      Minor points:

      (1) Table 2 could be simplified to improve readability. The headers have redundancies across columns with varied time points and could be merged.

      The suggested changes are incorporated in the manuscript (see earlier comment about this).

      (2) "BMD" is not defined in the Abstract. This is a personal preference, but there were numerous abbreviations in the text that made it difficult to follow at times.

      The suggested changes are incorporated in the manuscript (see earlier comment about this).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This valuable study reveals how a rhizobial effector protein cleaves and inhibits a key plant receptor for symbiosis signaling, while the host plant counters by phosphorylating the effector. The molecular evidence for the protein-protein interaction and modification is solid, though biological evidence directly linking effector cleavage to rhizobial infection is incomplete. With additional functional data, this work could have implications for understanding intricate plant-microbe dynamics during mutualistic interactions.

      Thank you for this positive comment. Our data strongly support the view that NFR5 cleavage by NopT impairs Nod factor signaling resulting in reduced rhizobial infection. However, other mechanisms may also have an effect on the symbiosis, as NopT targets other proteins in addition to NFR5. In our revised manuscript version, we discuss the possibility that negative NopT effects on symbiosis could be due to NopT-triggered immune responses. As mentioned in our point-by-point answers to the Reviewers, we included additional data into our manuscript. We would also like to point out that we are generally more cautious in our revised version in order to avoid over-interpreting the data obtained.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Bacterial effectors that interfere with the inner molecular workings of eukaryotic host cells are of great biological significance across disciplines. On the one hand they help us to understand the molecular strategies that bacteria use to manipulate host cells. On the other hand they can be used as research tools to reveal molecular details of the intricate workings of the host machinery that is relevant for the interaction/defence/symbiosis with bacteria. The authors investigate the function and biological impact of a rhizobial effector that interacts with and modifies, and curiously is modified by, legume receptors essential for symbiosis. The molecular analysis revealed a bacterial effector that cleaves a plant symbiosis signaling receptor to inhibit signaling and the host counterplay by phosphorylation via a receptor kinase. These findings have potential implications beyond bacterial interactions with plants.

      Thank you for highlighting the broad significance of rhizobial effectors in understanding legume-rhizobia interactions. We fully agree with your assessment and have expanded our Discussion (and Abstract) regarding the potential implications of our findings beyond bacterial interactions with plants. We mention the prospect of developing specific kinase-interacting proteases to fine-tune cellular signaling processes in general.

      Bao and colleagues investigated how rhizobial effector proteins can regulate the legume root nodule symbiosis. A rhizobial effector is described to directly modify symbiosis-related signaling proteins, altering the outcome of the symbiosis. Overall, the paper presents findings that will have a wide appeal beyond its primary field.

      Out of 15 identified effectors from Sinorhizobium fredii, they focus on the effector NopT, which exhibits proteolytic activity and may therefore cleave specific target proteins of the host plant. They focus on two Nod factor receptors of the legume Lotus japonicus, NFR1 and NFR5, both of which were previously found to be essential for the perception of rhizobial nod factor, and the induction of symbiotic responses such as bacterial infection thread formation in root hairs and root nodule development (Madsen et al., 2003, Nature; Tirichine et al., 2003; Nature). The authors present evidence for an interaction of NopT with NFR1 and NFR5. The paper aims to characterize the biochemical and functional consequences of these interactions and the phenotype that arises when the effector is mutated.

      Thank you for your positive feedback.  We have now emphasized the interdisciplinary significance of our work in the Introduction and Discussion of our revised manuscript. We highlight how the insights gained from our study can contribute to a better understanding of microbial interactions with eukaryotic hosts in general, and hope that our findings could benefit future research in the fields of pathogenesis, immunity, and symbiosis.

      We appreciate your detailed summary of our work, which is focused on NopT and its interaction with Nod factor receptors. To ensure that the readers can easily follow the rationale behind our work, we have included a more detailed explanation of how NopT was identified to target Nod factor receptors. In particular, we now better describe the test system (Nicotiana benthamiana cells co-expressing NFR1/NFR5 with a given effector of Sinorhizobium fredii NGR234). In addition, we provide now a more thorough background on the roles of NFR1 and NFR5 in symbiotic signaling and refer to the two Nature papers from 2003 on NFR1 and NFR5 (Madsen et al., 2003; Radutoiu et al., 2003).

      Evidence is presented that in vitro NopT can cleave NFR5 at its juxtamembrane region. NFR5 appears also to be cleaved in vivo. and NFR1 appears to inhibit the proteolytic activity of NopT by phosphorylating NopT. When NFR5 and NFR1 are ectopically over-expressed in leaves of the non-legume Nicotiana benthamiana, they induce cell death (Madsen et al., 2011, Plant Journal). Bao et al., found that this cell death response is inhibited by the coexpression of nopT. Mutation of nopT alters the outcome of rhizobial infection in L. japonicus. These conclusions are well supported by the data.

      We appreciate your recognition of the robustness of our conclusions. In the context of your comments, we made the following improvements to our manuscript:

      We included a more detailed description of the experimental conditions under which the cleavage of NFR5 by NopT was observed in vitro and in vivo. Furthermore, additional experiments were added to strengthen the evidence for NFR5 cleavage by NopT (Fig 3, S3, S6, and S14).

      We provided more comprehensive data on the phosphorylation of NopT by NFR1, including phosphorylation assays (Fig. 4) and mass spectrometry results (Fig. S7 and Table S1). These data provide additional information on the mechanism by which NFR1 inhibits the proteolytic activity of NopT.

      We expanded the discussion on the cell death response induced by ectopic expression of NFR1 and NFR5 in Nicotiana benthamiana. We also included further details from Madsen et al. (2011) to contextualize our findings within the known literature.

      We believe that these additions and clarifications have improved the significance and impact of our study.

      The authors present evidence supporting the interaction of NopT with NFR1 and NFR5. In particular, there is solid support for cleavage of NFR5 by NopT (Figure 3) and the identification of NopT phosphorylation sites that inhibit its proteolytic activity (Figure 4C). Cleavage of NFR5 upon expression in N. benthamiana (Figure 3A) requires appropriate controls (inactive mutant versions) that have been provided, since Agrobacterium as a closely rhizobia-related bacterium, might increase defense related proteolytic activity in the plant host cells.

      We appreciate your recognition of the importance of appropriate controls in our experimental design. In response to your comments, we revised our manuscript to ensure that the figures and legends provide a clear description of the controls used. We also included a more detailed description of our experimental design at several places. In particular, we have highlighted the use of the protease-dead version of NopT as a control (NopT<sup>C93S</sup>). Therefore, NFR5-GFP cleavage in N. benthamiana clearly depended on protease activity of NopT and not on Agrobacterium (Fig. 3A). In the revised text, we are now more cautious in our wording and don’t conclude at this stage that NopT proteolyzes NFR5. However, our subsequent experiments, including in vitro experiments, clearly show that NopT is able to proteolyze NFR5.

      We are convinced that these changes have improved the quality of our work.

      Key results from N. benthamiana appear consistent with data from recombinant protein expression in bacteria. For the analysis in the host legume L. japonicus transgenic hairy roots were included. To demonstrate that the cleavage of NFR5 occurs during the interaction in plant cells the authors build largely on western blots. Regardless of whether Nicotiana leaf cells or Lotus root cells are used as the test platform, the Western blots indicate that only a small proportion of NFR5 is cleaved when co-expressed with nopT, and most of the NFR5 persists in its full-length form (Figures 3A-D). It is not quite clear how the authors explain the loss of NFR5 function (loss of cell death, impact on symbiosis), as a vast excess of the tested target remains intact. It is also not clear why a large proportion of NFR5 is unaffected by the proteolytic activity of NopT. This is particularly interesting in Nicotiana in the absence of Nod factor that could trigger NFR1 kinase activity.

      Thank you for your comments regarding the cleavage of NFR5 by NopT and its functional implications. We acknowledge that our immunoblots indicate only a relatively small proportion of  the NFR5 cleavage product.  Possible explanations could be as follows:

      (1) The presence of full-length NFR5 does not preclude a significant impact of NopT on function of NFR5, as NopT is able to bind to NFR5. In other words, the NopT-NFR5 and NopT-NFR1 interactions at the plasmamembrane might influence the function of the NFR1/NFR5 receptor without proteolytic cleavage of NFR5. In fact, protease-dead NopT<sup>C93S</sup> expressed in NGR234Δ_nopT_ showed certain effects in L. japonicus (less infection foci were formed compared to NGR234Δ_nopT_ Fig. 5E).  In this context, it is worth mentioning that the non-acylated NopT<sup>C93S</sup> (Fig. 1B) and not<sub>USDA257</sub> (Fig. 6B) proteins were unable to suppress NFR1/NFR5-induced cell death in N. benthamina, but this could be explained by the lack of acylation and altered subcellular localization.

      (2) The cleaved NFR5 fraction, although small, may be sufficient to disrupt signaling pathways, leading to the observed phenotypic changes  (loss of cell death in N. benthamiana; altered infection in L. japonicus).

      (3) The used expression systems produce high levels of proteins in the cell. This may not reflect the natural situation in L. japonicus cells.

      (4) Cellular conditions could impair cleavage of NFR5 by NopT.  Expression of proteins in E. coli may partially result in formation of protein aggregates (inactive NopT; NFR5 resistant to proteolysis).

      (5) In N. benthamiana co-expressing NFR1/NFR5, the NFR1 kinase activity is constitutively active (i.e., does not require Nod factors), suggesting an altered protein conformation of the receptor complex, which may influence the proteolytic susceptibility of NFR5.

      (6) The proteolytic activity of NopT may be reduced by the interaction of NopT with other proteins such as NFR1, which phosphorylates NopT and inactivates its protease activity.

      In our revised manuscript version, we provide now quantitative data for the efficiency of NFR5 cleavage by NopT in different expression systems used (Supplemental Fig.  14).  We have also improved our Discussion in this context. Future research will be necessary to better understand loss of NFR5 function by NopT. 

      It is also difficult to evaluate how the ratios of cleaved and full-length protein change when different versions of NopT are present without a quantification of band strengths normalized to loading controls (Figure 3C, 3D, 3F). The same is true for the blots supporting NFR1 phosphorylation of NopT (Figure 4A).

      Thank you for pointing out this. Following your suggestions, we quantified the band intensities for cleaved and full-length NFR5 in our different expression systems (N. benthamiana, L. japonicus and E. coli). The protein bands were normalized to loading controls. The data are shown in the new Supplemental Fig. 14. Similarly, the bands of immunoblots supporting phosphorylation of NopT by NFR1 were quantified. The data on band intensities are shown in Fig.  4B of our revised manuscript. These improvements provide a clearer understanding of how the ratios of cleaved to full-length proteins change in different protein expression systems, and to which extent NopT was phosphorylated by NFR1.

      Nodule primordia and infection threads are still formed when L. japonicus plants are inoculated with ∆nopT mutant bacteria, but it is not clear if these primordia are infected or develop into fully functional nodules (Figure 5). A quantification of the ratio of infected and non-infected nodules and primordia would reveal whether NopT is only active at the transition from infection focus to thread or perhaps also later in the bacterial infection process of the developing root nodule.

      Thank you for highlighting this aspect of our study. In response to your comment, we have conducted additional inoculation experiments with L. japonicus plants inoculated with NGR234 and NGR234_ΔnopT_ mutant. The new data are shown in Fig 5A, 5E, and 5G. However, we could not find any uninfected nodules (empty) nodules when roots were inoculated with these strains and mention this observation in the Results section of our revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript presents data demonstrating NopT's interaction with Nod Factor Receptors NFR1 and NFR5 and its impact on cell death inhibition and rhizobial infection. The identification of a truncated NopT variant in certain Sinorhizobium species adds an interesting dimension to the study. These data try to bridge the gaps between classical Nod-factor-dependent nodulation and T3SS NopT effector-dependent nodulation in legume-rhizobium symbiosis. Overall, the research provides interesting insights into the molecular mechanisms underlying symbiotic interactions between rhizobia and legumes.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript nicely demonstrates NopT's proteolytic cleavage of NFR5, regulated by NFR1 phosphorylation, promoting rhizobial infection in L. japonicus. Intriguingly, authors also identify a truncated NopT variant in certain Sinorhizobium species, maintaining NFR5 cleavage but lacking NFR1 interaction. These findings bridge the T3SS effector with the classical Nod-factor-dependent nodulation pathway, offering novel insights into symbiotic interactions.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) In the previous study, when transiently expressed NopT alone in Nicotiana tobacco plants, proteolytically active NopT elicited a rapid hypersensitive reaction. However, this phenotype was not observed when expressing the same NopT in Nicotiana benthamiana (Figure 1A). Conversely, cell death and a hypersensitive reaction were observed in Figure S8. This raises questions about the suitability of the exogenous expression system for studying NopT proteolysis specificity.

      We appreciate your attention to these plant-specific differences. Previous studies showed that NopT expressed in tobacco (N. tabacum) or in specific Arabidopsis ecotypes (with PBS1/RPS5 genes) causes rapid cell death (Dai et al. 2008; Khan et al. 2022). Khan et al. 2022 reported recently that cell death does not occur in N. benthamiana unless the leaves were transformed with PBS1/RPS5 constructs. Our data shown in Fig. S15 confirm these findings. As cell death (effector triggered immunity) is usually associated with induction of plant protease activities, we considered N. tabacum and A. thaliana plants as not suitable for testing NFR5 cleavage by NopT. In fact, no NopT/NFR5 experiments were not performed with these plants in our study.  In response to your comment, we now better describe the N. benthamiana expression system and cite the previous articles_. Furthermore,  We have revised the Discussion section to better emphasize effector-induced immunity in non-host plants and the negative effect of rhizobial effectors during symbiosis. Our revisions certainly provide a clearer understanding of the advantages and limitations of the _N.  benthamiana expression system.

      (2) NFR5 Loss-of-function mutants do not produce nodules in the presence of rhizobia in lotus roots, and overexpression of NFR1 and NFR5 produces spontaneous nodules. In this regard, if the direct proteolysis target of NopT is NFR5, one could expect the NGR234's infection will not be very successful because of the Native NopT's specific proteolysis function of NFR5 and NFR1. Conversely, in Figure 5, authors observed the different results.

      Thank you for this comment, which points out that we did not address this aspect precisely enough in the original manuscript version.  We improved our manuscript and now write that nfr1 and nfr5 mutants do not produce nodules (Madsen et al., 2003; Radutoiu et al., 2003) and that over-expression of either NFR1 or NFR5 can activate NF signaling, resulting in formation of spontaneous nodules in the absence of rhizobia (Ried et al., 2014). In fact, compared to the nopT knockout mutant NGR234_ΔnopT_, wildtype NGR234 (with NopT) is less successful in inducing infection foci in root hairs of L. japonicus (Fig. 5). With respect to formation of nodule primordia, we repeated our inoculation experiments with NGR234_ΔnopT_ and wildtype NGR234 and also included a nopT over-expressing NGR234 strain into the analysis. Our data clearly showed that nodule primordium formation was negatively affected by NopT. The new data are shown in Fig. 5 of our revised version. Our data show that NGR234's infection is not really successful, especially when NopT is over-expressed. This is consistent  with our observations that NopT targets Nod factor receptors in L. japonicus and inhibits NF signaling (NIN promoter-GUS experiments). Our findings indicate that NopT is an “Avr effector” for L. japonicus.  However, in other host plants of NGR234, NopT possesses a symbiosis-promoting role (Dai et al. 2008; Kambara et al. 2009). Such differences could be explained by different NopT targets in different plants (in addition to Nod factor receptors), which may influence the outcome of the infection process. Indeed, our work shows hat NopT can interact with various kinase-dead LysM domain receptors, suggesting a role of NopT in suppression or activation of plant immunity responses depending on the host plant. We discuss such alternative mechanisms in our revised manuscript version and emphasize the need for further investigation to elucidate the precise mechanisms underlying the observed infection phenotype and the role of NopT in modulating symbiotic signaling pathways. In this context, we would also like to mention the two new figures of our manuscript which are showing (i) the efficiency of NFR5 cleavage by NopT in different expression systems, (ii) the interaction between NopT<sup>C93S</sup> and His-SUMO-NFR5<sup>JM</sup>-GFP, and (iii) cleavage of His-SUMO-NFP<sup>JM</sup>-GFP by NopT (Supplementary Figs. S8 and S9).

      (3) In Figure 6E, the model illustrates how NopT digests NFR5 to regulate rhizobia infection. However, it raises the question of whether it is reasonable for NGR234 to produce an effector that restricts its own colonization in host plants.

      Thank you for mentioning this point. We are aware of the possible paradox that the broad-host-range strain NGR234 produces an effector that appears to restrict its infection of host plants. As mentioned in our answer to the previous comment, NopT could have additional functions beyond the regulation of Nod factor signaling. In our revised manuscript version, we have modified our text as follows:

      (1) We mention the potential evolutionary aspects of NopT-mediated regulation of rhizobial infection and discuss the possibility that interactions between NopT and Nod factor receptors may have evolved to fine-tune Nod factor signaling to avoid rhizobial hyperinfection in certain host legumes.

      (2) We also emphasize that the presence of NopT may confer selective advantages in other host plants than L. japonicus due to interactions with proteins related to plant immunity. Like other effectors, NopT could suppress activation of immune responses (suppression of PTI) or cause effector-triggered immunity (ETI) responses, thereby modulating rhizobial infection and nodule formation. Interactions between NopT and proteins related to the plant immune system may represent an important evolutionary driving force for host-specific nodulation and explain why the presence of NopT in NGR234 has a negative effect on symbiosis with L. japonicus but a positive one with other legumes.

      (4) The failure to generate stable transgenic plants expressing NopT in Lotus japonicus is surprising, considering the manuscript's claim that NopT specifically proteolyzes NFR5, a major player in the response to nodule symbiosis, without being essential for plant development.

      We also thank for this comment. We have revised the Discussion section of our manuscript and discuss now our failure to generate stable transgenic L. japonicus plants expressing NopT. We observed that the protease activity of NopT in aerial parts of L. japonicus had a negative effect on plant development, whereas NopT expression in hairy roots was possible. Such differences may be explained by different NopT substrates in roots and aerial parts of the plant. In this context, we also discuss our finding that NopT not only cleaves NFR5 but is also able to proteolyze other proteins of L. japonicus such as LjLYS11, suggesting that NopT not only suppresses Nod factor signaling, but may also interfere with signal transduction pathways related to plant immunity. We speculate that, depending on the host legume species, NopT could suppress PTI or induce ETI, thereby modulating rhizobial infection and nodule formation.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Overall the text and figure legends must be double-checked for correctness of scientific statements. The few listed here are just examples. There are more that are potentially damaging the perception by the readers and thus the value of the manuscript.

      The nopT mutant leads to more infections. In line 358 the statement: "...and the proteolysis of NFR5 are important for rhizobial infection", is wrong, as the infection works even better without it. It is, according to my interpretation of the results, important for the regulation of infection. Sounds a small difference, but it completely changes the meaning.

      We appreciate your thorough review and have taken the opportunity to correct this error. Following your suggestions, we carefully rephrased the whole text and figure legends to ensure that the scientific statements accurately reflect the findings of our study. We are convinced that these changed have increased the value of this study.

      In line 905 the authors state that NopTC indicates the truncated version of NopT after autocleavage by releasing about 50 a.a. at its N-terminus.

      They do not analyse this cleavage product to support this claim. So better rephrase.

      According to Dai et al. (2008), NopT expressed in E. coli is autocleaved. The N-terminal sequence GCCA obtained by Edman sequencing suggests that NopT was cleaved between M49 and G50.  We improved our manuscript and now write:

      (1) “A previous study has shown that NopT is autocleaved at its N-terminus to form a processed protein that lacks the first 49 amino acid residues (Dai et al., 2008)”

      (2) “However, NopT<sup>ΔN50</sup>, which is similar to autocleaved NopT, retained the ability to interact with NFR5 but not with NFR1 (Fig. S2D).”.

      In line 967: "Both NopT and NopTC after autocleavage exert proteolytic activities" This is confusing as it was suggested earlier that NopTc is a product of the autocleavage. There is no indication of another round of NopTc autocleavage or did I miss something?

      Thank you for bringing this inaccuracy to our attention. There is no second round of NopT autocleavage. We have corrected the text and write: “NopT and not<sup>C</sup> (autocleaved NopT) proteolytically cleave NFR5 at the juxtamembrane domain to release the intracellular domain of NFR5”

      Given the amount of work that went into the research, the presentation of the figures should be considerably improved. For example, in Figure 3F the mutant is not correctly annotated. In figure 5 the term infection foci and IT occur but it is not explained in the legend what these are, where they can be seen in the figure and how the researchers discriminated between the two events.

      In general, the labeling of the figure panels should be improved to facilitate the understanding. For example, in Figure 3 the panels switch between different host plant systems. The plant could be clarified for each panel to aid the reader. The asterisks are not in line with the signal that is supposed to be marked. And so on. I strongly advise to improve the figures.

      Thank you for your valuable suggestions. We acknowledge the importance of clear and informative figure presentation to enhance the understanding of our research findings. In response to your comments, we made a comprehensive revision of the figures to address the mentioned issues:

      (1) We corrected annotations of the mutant in Figure 3F to accurately represent the experimental conditions.

      (2) We revised the legend of Figure 5 and provide clear explanations of the terms "infection foci" and "IT" (infection threads) in the Methods section.

      (3) We improved the labeling of figure panels and improved the writing of the figure legend specifying the protein expression system (N. benthamiana, L. japonicus and E. coli, respectively). . We ensured that the asterisks indicating statistically significant results are properly aligned.

      Furthermore, we carefully reviewed each figure to enhance clarity and readability, including optimizing font size and line thickness. Captions and annotations were also revised.

      Figure 1

      • To verify that the lack of observed cell death is not linked to differential expression levels, an expression control Western blot is essential. In the expression control Western blot given in the supplemental materials (Supplemental fig. 1E), NFR5 is not visible in the first lane.

      We appreciate your comments on the control immunoblot which were made to verify the presence of NFR1, NFR5 and NopT in N. benthamiana.  However, as shown in Supplemental Fig. 1E, the intact NFR5 could not be immuno-detected when co-expressed with NFR1 and NopT. To ensure co-expression of NFR1/NFR5, A. tumefaciens carrying a binary vector with both NFR1 and NFR5 was used. In the revised version, we modified the figure legend accordingly and also included a detailed description of the procedure at lines 165-166

      • Labeling of NFR1/LjNFR1 should be kept consistent between the text and the figures. Currently, the text refers to both NFR1 and LjNFR1 and figures are labelled NFR1. The same is true for NFR5.

      Thank you for pointing out this inconsistency. We revised our manuscript and use now consistently NFR1 and NFR5 without a prefix to avoid any confusions.

      • A clearer description of how cell death was determined would be useful. In the selected pictures in panel D, leaves coexpressing nopT with Bax1 or Cerk1 appear very different from the pictures selected for NopM and AVr3a/R3a.

      We agree that a clearer description of our cell death experiments with N. benthamiana was necessary. We have re-worded the figure legend to provide more detailed information on the criteria used for assessing cell death. Additionally, we show now our images at higher resolution.

      • In panel D, the "Death/Total" ratio is only shown for leaf discs where nopT was coexpressed with the cell-death triggering proteins. Including the ratio for leaf discs where only the cell-death triggering protein (without nopT ) was expressed would make the figure more clear.

      Thank you for this suggestion. To provide a more comprehensive comparison, we included the "Cell death/Total" ratio for all leaf disc images shown in Fig. 1D. 

      Figure 2:

      • A: Split-YFP is not ideal as evidence for colocalization because of the chemical bond formed between the YFP fragments that may lead to artificial trapping/accumulation outside the main expression domains. Overall, the authors should revise if this figure aims to show colocalization or interaction. In the current text, both terms are used, but these are different interpretations.

      We appreciate your concern regarding the use of Split-YFP for colocalization analysis. We carefully reviewed the figure and corresponding text to ensure clarity in the interpretation of the results. The primary aim of this figure was to explore protein-protein interactions rather than strict colocalization. Protein-protein interactions have also been validated by other experiments of our work. We have revised the text accordingly and no longer emphasize on “co-localization”.

      • Given the focus on proteolytic activity in this paper, all blots need to be clearly labeled with size markers, and it would be good to include a supplemental figure with all other bands produced in the Western blot, regardless of their size. Without this, the results in panel 2D seem inconsistent with results presented in figure 3A, since NFR5 does not appear to be cleaved in the Western blot in 2D, but 3A shows cleavage when the same proteins (with different tags) are coexpressed in the same system.

      Thank you for bringing up this point. We ensured that all immunoblots are clearly labeled with size markers in our revised manuscript. We also carefully checked the consistency of the results presented in Figures 2D and Figure 3A and included appropriate clarifications in the revised manuscript. In Figure 2D, we show the bands at around 75 kD  (multi-bands would be detected below, including cleaved NFR5 by NopT, but also other non-specific bands).

      Figure 3:

      • In panel E, NopTC93S cannot cleave His-Sumo-NFR5JM-GFP, but it would be interesting to also show if NopTC93S can bind the NFR5JM fragment. It would also be useful to see this experiment done with the JM of NFP.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We agree that investigating the binding of NopT<sup>C93S</sup> to the NFR5<sup>JM</sup> fragment provides valuable insights into the interaction between NopT and NFR5. In our revised version, we show in the new Supplemental Fig. S4 that NopT interacts with NFR5JM and cleaves NFP<sup>JM</sup>. The Results section has been modified accordingly.

      • The panels in this figure require better labeling. In many panels, asterisks are misplaced relative to the bands they should highlight, and not all blots have size markers or loading controls.

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We carefully reviewed the labeling of all panels in Figure 3 to ensure accuracy and clarity. We ensured that asterisks are correctly placed in the figures. We also included size markers and loading controls to improve the quality of the shown immunoblots.

      • Since there is no clear evidence in this figure that the smear in the blot in panel C is phosphorylated NopT, it is recommended to provide a less interpretative label on the blot, and explain the label in the text.

      We appreciate your suggestion regarding the labeling of the blot in panel C of Fig. 3. We revised the label and provided a less interpretative designation in Fig. 3C. We also rephrased the figure legend and the text in the Results section as recommended.

      Figure 4

      • In B, a brief introduction in the text to the function of the Zn-phostag would make the figure easier to understand for more readers.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We agree and have provided a brief explanation in the Results section: “On such gels, a Zn<sup>2+</sup>-Phos-tag bound phosphorylated protein migrates slower than its unbound nonphosphorylated form. Furthermore, we have included the reference (Kato & Sakamoto, 2019) into the Methods section.

      Figure 5:

      • Change "Scar bar" to "Scale bar" in the figure captions

      Thank you for spotting that typo. We have corrected it.

      • Correct the references to the figures in the text

      We carefully reviewed the Figure 5 and made corresponding corrections to improve the quality of our manuscript Please check line 394-451.

      • It should be clarified what was quantified as "infection foci" (C, F, G)

      We revised the legend of Figure 5 and provide now explanations of the terms "infection foci" and "IT" (infection threads) in the Methods section.  Please check line 399-451.

      • It is recommended to use pictures that are from the same region of the plant root (the susceptible zone). The pictures in panel A appear to be from different regions, since the density of root hairs is different.

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We ensured that the images selected for panel A were from the same region of the plant root to guarantee consistency and accuracy of the comparison.

      • Panel G should be labeled so it is clearer that nopT is being expressed in L. japonicus transgenic roots.

      We have labeled this panel more clearly to help the reader understand that nopT was expressed in transgenic L. japonicus roots.

      • Panel F is missing statistical tests for ITs

      We apologize and have included the results of our statistical tests for ITs.

      Figure 6:

      • The model presented in panel E misrepresents the role of NFR5 according to the results in the paper. From the evidence presented, it is not clear if the observed rhizobial infection phenotype is due to reduced abundance of full-length NFR5, or if the cleaved NFR5 fragment is suppressing infection. Additionally, S. fredii should not be drawn so close to the plasma membrane, since the bacteria are located outside the cell wall when the T3SS is active.

      We appreciate your comment which helps us to improve the interpretation of our results. We agree that the model should accurately reflect the uncertainties regarding the role of NFR5. We revised the model (positioning of S. fredii etc.) and write in the Discussion:

      “NopT impairs the function of the NFR1/NFR5 receptor complex. Cleavage of NFR5 by NopT reduces its protein levels. Possible inhibitory effects of NFR5 cleavage products on NF signaling are unknown but cannot be excluded.”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Some minor weaknesses need addressing: In Figure 5A, the root hair density in the two images appears significantly different. Are these images representative of each treatment?

      We appreciate your attention to detail and the importance of ensuring that the images in Figure 5A are representative. We carefully reviewed our image selection process and confirm that the shown images are indeed representative of each treatment group. In our revised version, we show additional images and also improved the text in the figure legend. Furthermore, we performed additional GUS staining tests and the new data are shown in Fig 5A abd 5B.

      (2) Additionally, please ensure consistency in the format of genotype names throughout the manuscript. For instance, in Line 897, "Italy" should be used in place of "N. benthamiana."

      We thank you for pointing out the format of genotype names and corrected our manuscript as requested.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      The authors introduced their previous paper with the concise statement that "the relationships between lineage-specific attributes and genotypic differences of tumors are not understood" (Chen et al., JEM 2019, PMID: 30737256). For example, it is not clear why combined loss of RB1 and TP53 is required for tumorigenesis in SCLC or other aggressive neuroendocrine (NE) cancers, or why the oncogenic mutations in KRAS or EGFR that drive NSCLC tumorigenesis are found so infrequently in SCLC. This is the main question addressed by the previous and current papers. 

      One approach to this question is to identify a discrete set of genetic/biochemical manipulations that are sufficient to transform non-malignant human cells into SCLC-like tumors. One group reported the transformation of primary human bronchial epithelial cells into NE tumors through a complex lentiviral cocktail involving the inactivation of pRB and p53 and activation of AKT, cMYC, and BCL2 (PARCB) (Park et al., Science 2018, PMID: 30287662). The cocktail previously reported by Chen and colleagues to transform human pluripotent stem-cell (hPSC)-derived lung progenitors (LPs) into NE xenografts was more concise: DAPT to inactivate NOTCH signaling combined with shRNAs against RB1 and TP53. However, the resulting RP xenografts lacked important characteristics of SCLC. Unlike SCLC, these tumors proliferated slowly and did not metastasize, and although small subpopulations expressed MYC or MYCL, none expressed NEUROD1. 

      MYC is frequently amplified or expressed at high levels in SCLC, and here, the authors have tested whether inducible expression of MYC could increase the resemblance of their hPSC-derived NE tumors to SCLC. These RPM cells (or RPM T58A with stabilized cMYC) engrafted more consistently and grew more rapidly than RP cells, and unlike RP cells, formed liver metastases when injected into the renal capsule. Gene expression analyses revealed that RPM tumor subpopulations expressed NEUROD1, ASCL1, and/or YAP1. 

      The hPSC-derived RPM model is a major advance over the previous RP model. This may become a powerful tool for understanding SCLC tumorigenesis and progression and for discovering gene dependencies and molecular targets for novel therapies. However, the specific role of cMYC in this model needs to be clarified. 

      cMYC can drive proliferation, tumorigenesis, or apoptosis in a variety of lineages depending on concurrent mutations. For example, in the Park et al., study, normal human prostate cells could be reprogrammed to form adenocarcinoma-like tumors by activation of cMYC and AKT alone, without manipulation of TP53 or RB1. In their previous manuscript, the authors carefully showed the role of each molecular manipulation in NE tumorigenesis. DAPT was required for NE differentiation of LPs to PNECs, shRB1 was required for expansion of the PNECs, and shTP53 was required for xenograft formation. cMYC expression could influence each of these steps, and importantly, could render some steps dispensable. For example, shRB1 was previously necessary to expand the DAPT-induced PNECs, as neither shTP53 nor activation of KRAS or EGFR had no effect on this population, but perhaps cMYC overexpression could expand PNECs even in the presence of pRB, or even induce LPs to become PNECs without DAPT. Similarly, both shRB1 and shTP53 were necessary for xenograft formation, but maybe not if cMYC is overexpressed. If a molecular hallmark of SCLC, such as loss of RB1 or TP53, has become dispensable with the addition of cMYC, this information is critically important in interpreting this as a model of SCLC tumorigenesis.  

      The reviewer’s suggestion may be possible; indeed, in a recent report from our group (Gardner EE, et al., Science 2024) we have shown, using genetically engineered mouse modeling coupled with lineage tracing, that the cMyc oncogene can selectively expand Ascl1+ PNECs in the lung.

      We agree with the reviewer that not having a better understanding of the individual components necessary and/or sufficient to transform hESC-derived LPs is an important shortcoming of this current work. However, we would like to stress three important points about the comments:  1) tumors were reviewed and the histological diagnoses were certified by a practicing pulmonary pathologist at WCM (our co-author, C. Zhang); 2 )the observed  transcriptional programs were consistent with primary human SCLC; and 3) RB1-proficient SCLC is now recognized as a rare presentation of SCLC (Febrese-Aldana CA, et al., Clin. Can. Res. 2022. PMID: 35792876).

      To interpret the role of cMYC expression in hPSC-derived RPM tumors, we need to know what this manipulation does without manipulation of pRB, p53, or NOTCH, alone or in combination. Seven relevant combinations should be presented in this manuscript: (1) cMYC alone in LPs, (2) cMYC + DAPT, (3) cMYC + shRB1, (4) cMYC + DAPT + shRB1, (5) cMYC + shTP53, (6) cMYC + DAPT + shTP53, and (7) cMYC + shRB1 + shTP53. Wildtype cMYC is sufficient; further exploration with the T58A mutant would not be necessary. 

      We respectfully disagree that an interrogation of the differences between the phenotypes produced by wildtype and Myc(T58A) would not be informative. (Our view is confirmed by the second reviewer; see below.)    It is well established that Myc gene or protein dosage can have profound effects on in vivo phenotypes (Murphy DJ, et al., Cancer Cell 2008. PMID: 19061836). The “RPM” model of variant SCLC developed by Trudy Oliver’s lab relied on the conditional T58A point mutant of cMyc, originally made by Rob Wechsler-Reya. While we do not discuss the differences between Myc and Myc(T58A), it is nonetheless important to present our results with both the WT and mutant MYC constructs, as we are aware of others actively investigating differences between them in GEMM models of SCLC tumor development.

      We agree with the reviewer about the virtues of trying to identify the effects of individual gene manipulations; indeed our original paper (Chen et al., J. Expt. Med. 2019), describing the RUES2derived model of SCLC did just that, carefully dissecting events required to transform LPs towards a SCLC-like state. The central  purpose of the current study was to determine the effects of adding cMyc on the behavior of weakly tumorigenic SCLC-like cells cMyc.  Presenting data with these two alleles to seek effects of different doses of MYC protein seems reasonable.

      This reviewer considers that there should be a presentation of the effects of these combinations on LP differentiation to PNECs, expansion of PNECs as well as other lung cells, xenograft formation and histology, and xenograft growth rate and capacity for metastasis. If this could be clarified experimentally, and the results discussed in the context of other similar approaches such as the Park et al., paper, this study would be a major addition to the field.  

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      Chen et al use human embryonic stem cells (ESCs) to determine the impact of wildtype MYC and a point mutant stable form of MYC (MYC-T58A) in the transformation of induced pulmonary neuroendocrine cells (PNEC) in the context of RB1/P53 (RP) loss (tumor suppressors that are nearly universally lost in small cell lung cancer (SCLC)). Upon transplant into immune-deficient mice, they find that RP-MYC and RP-MYC-T58A cells grow more rapidly, and are more likely to be metastatic when transplanted into the kidney capsule, than RP controls. Through single-cell RNA sequencing and immunostaining approaches, they find that these RPM tumors and their metastases express NEUROD1, which is a transcription factor whose expression marks a distinct molecular state of SCLC. While MYC is already known to promote aggressive NEUROD1+ SCLC in other models, these data demonstrate its capacity in a human setting that provides a rationale for further use of the ESC-based model going forward. Overall, these findings provide a minor advance over the previous characterization of this ESC-based model of SCLC published in Chen et al, J Exp Med, 2019. 

      We consider the findings more than a “minor” advance in the development of the model, since any useful model for SCLC would need to form aggressive and metastatic tumors.

      The major conclusion of the paper is generally well supported, but some minor conclusions are inadequate and require important controls and more careful analysis. 

      Strengths:

      (1) Both MYC and MYC-T58A yield similar results when RP-MYC and RP-MYCT58A PNEC ESCs are injected subcutaneously, or into the renal capsule, of immune-deficient mice, leading to the conclusion that MYC promotes faster growth and more metastases than RP controls. 

      (2) Consistent with numerous prior studies in mice with a neuroendocrine (NE) cell of origin (Mollaoglu et al, Cancer Cell, 2017; Ireland et al, Cancer Cell, 2020; Olsen et al, Genes Dev, 2021), MYC appears sufficient in the context of RB/P53 loss to induce the NEUROD1 state. Prior studies also show that MYC can convert human ASCL1+ neuroendocrine SCLC cell lines to a NEUROD1 state (Patel et al, Sci Advances, 2021); this study for the first time demonstrates that RB/P53/MYC from a human neuroendocrine cell of origin is sufficient to transform a NE state to aggressive NEUROD1+ SCLC. This finding provides a solid rationale for using the human ESC system to better understand the function of human oncogenes and tumor suppressors from a neuroendocrine origin. 

      Weaknesses:

      (1) There is a major concern about the conclusion that MYC "yields a larger neuroendocrine compartment" related to Figures 4C and 4G, which is inadequately supported and likely inaccurate. There is overwhelming published data that while MYC can promote NEUROD1, it also tends to correlate with reduced ASCL1 and reduced NE fate (Mollaoglu et al, Cancer Cell, 2017; Zhang et al, TLCR, 2018; Ireland et al, Cancer Cell, 2020; Patel et al, Sci Advances, 2021). Most importantly, there is a lack of in vivo RP tumor controls to make the proper comparison to judge MYC's impact on neuroendocrine identity. RPM tumors are largely neuroendocrine compared to in vitro conditions, but since RP control tumors (in vivo) are missing, it is impossible to determine whether MYC promotes more or less neuroendocrine fate than RP controls. It is not appropriate to compare RPM tumors to in vitro RP cells when it comes to cell fate. Upon inspection of the sample identity in S1B, the fibroblast and basal-like cells appear to only grow in vitro and are not well represented in vivo; it is, therefore, unclear whether these are transformed or even lack RB/P53 or express MYC. Indeed, a close inspection of Figure S1B shows that RPM tumor cells have little ASCL1 expression, consistent with lower NE fate than expected in control RP tumors. 

      We would like to clarify two points related to the conclusions that we draw about MYC’s ability to promote an increase in the neuroendocrine fraction in hESC-derived cultures:  1) The comparisons in Figures 4C were made between cells isolated in culture following the standard 50 day differentiation protocol, where, following generation of LPs around day 25, MYC was added to the other factors previously shown to enrich for a PNEC phenotype (shRB1, shTP53, and DAPT). Therefore, the argument that MYC increased the frequency of “neuroendocrine cells” (which we define by a gene expression signature) is a reasonable conclusion in the system we are using; and 2) following injection of these cells into immunocompromised mice, an ASCL1-low / NEUROD1-high presentation is noted (Supplemental Figures 1F-G). In the few metastases that we were able use to sequence bulk RNA, there is an even more pronounced increase in expression of NEUROD1 with a decrease in ASCL1.

      Some confusion may have arisen from our previous characterization of neuroendocrine (NE) cells using either ASCL1 or NEUROD1 as markers. To clarify, we have now designated cells positive for ASCL1 as classical NE cells and those positive for NEUROD1 as the NE variant. According to this revised classification, our findings indicate that MYC expression leads to an increase in the NEUROD1+ NE variant and a decrease in ASCL1+ classical NE cells. This adjustment has been reflected on the results section titled, “Inoculation of the renal capsule facilitates metastasis of the RUES2-derived RPM tumors” of the manuscript.  

      From the limited samples in hand, we compared the expression of ASCL1 and NEUROD1 in the weakly tumorigenic hESC RP cells after successful primary engraftment into immunocompromised mice. As expected, the RP tumors were distinguished by the lack of expression of NEUROD1, compared to levels observed in the RPM tumors.

      In addition, since MYC appears to require Notch signaling to induce  NE fate (cf Ireland et al), the presence of DAPT in culture could enrich for NE fate despite MYC's presence. It's important to clarify in the legend of Fig 4A which samples are used in the scRNA-seq data and whether they were derived from in vitro or in vivo conditions (as such, Supplementary Figure S1B should be provided in the main figure). Given their conclusion is confusing and challenges robustly supported data in other models, it is critical to resolve this issue properly. I suspect when properly resolved, MYC actually consistently does reduce NE fate compared to RP controls, even though tumors are still relatively NE compared to completely distinct cellular identities such as fibroblasts.

      We have clarified the source of tumor sequencing data and the platform (single cell or bulk) in Figure 4 and Supplemental Figure 1. To reiterate – the RNA sequencing results from paired metastatic and primary tumors from the RPM model are derived from bulk RNA;  the single cell RNA data in RP or RPM datasets are from cells in culture.  These distinctions are clarified in the legend to Supplemental Figure 1.

      (2) The rigor of the conclusions in Figure 1 would be strengthened by comparing an equivalent number of RP animals in the renal capsule assay, which is n = 6 compared to n = 11-14 in the MYC conditions.

      As we did not perform a power calculation to determine a sample size required to draw a level of statistical significance from our conclusions, this comment is not entirely accurate. Our statistical rigor was limited by the availability of samples from the RP tumor model.

      (3) Statistical analysis is not provided for Figures 2A-2B, and while the results are compelling, may be strengthened by additional samples due to the variability observed. 

      We acknowledge that the cohorts are relatively small but we have added statistical comparisons in Figure 2B. 

      (4a) Related to Figure 3, primary tumors and liver metastases from RPM or RPM-T58A-expressing cells express NEUROD1 by immunohistochemistry (IHC) but the putative negative controls (RP) are not shown, and there is no assessment of variability from tumor to tumor, ie, this is not quantified across multiple animals. 

      The results of H&E and IF staining for ASCL1, NEUROD1, CGRP, and CD56 in negative control (RP tumors) are presented in the updated Figure 3F-G.

      (4b) Relatedly, MYC has been shown to be able to push cells beyond NEUROD1 to a double-negative or YAP1+ state (Mollaoglu et al, Cancer Cell, 2017; Ireland et al, Cancer Cell, 2020), but the authors do not assess subtype markers by IHC. They do show subtype markers by mRNA levels in Fig 4B, and since there is expression of ASCL1, and potentially expression of YAP1 and POU2F3, it would be valuable to examine the protein levels by IHC in control RP vs. RPM samples.

      YAP1 positive SCLC is still somewhat controversial, so it is not clear what value staining for YAP1 offers beyond showing the well-established markers, ASCL1 and NEUROD1.  

      (5) Given that MYC has been shown to function distinctly from MYCL in SCLC models, it would have raised the impact and value of the study if MYC was compared to MYCL or MYCL fusions in this context since generally, SCLC expresses a MYC family member. However, it is quite possible that the control RP cells do express MYCL, and as such, it would be useful to show. 

      We now include Supplemental Figure S2 to illustrate four important points raised by this reviewer and others:  1) expression of MYC family members in the merged dataset (RP and RPM) is low or undetectable in the basal/fibroblast cultures; 2) MYC does have a weak correlation with EGFP in the neuroendocrine cluster when either WT MYC or T58A MYC is overexpressed; 3) MYCL and MYCN are detectable, but at low levels compared to CMYC; and 4) Expression of  ASCL1 is anticorrelated with MYC expression across the merged single cell datasets using RP and RPM models.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      The authors continue their study of the experimental model of small cell lung cancer (SCLC) they created from human embryonic stem cells (hESCs) using a protocol for differentiating the hESCs into pulmonary lineages followed by NOTCH signaling inactivation with DAPT, and then knockdown of TP53 and RB1 (RP models) with DOX inducible shRNAs. To this published model, they now add DOX-controlled activation of expression of a MYC or T58A MYC transgenes (RPM and RPMT58A models) and study the impact of this on xenograft tumor growth and metastases. Their major findings are that the addition of MYC increased dramatically subcutaneous tumor growth and also the growth of tumors implanted into the renal capsule. In addition, they only found liver and occasional lung metastases with renal capsule implantation. Molecular studies including scRNAseq showed that tumor lines with MYC or T58A MYC led surprisingly to more neuroendocrine differentiation, and (not surprisingly) that MYC expression was most highly correlated with NEUROD1 expression. Of interest, many of the hESCs with RPM/RPMT58A expressed ASCL1. Of note, even in the renal capsule RPM/RPMT58A models only 6/12 and 4/9 mice developed metastases (mainly liver with one lung metastasis) and a few mice of each type did not even develop a renal sub capsule tumor. The authors start their Discussion by concluding: " In this report, we show that the addition of an efficiently expressed transgene encoding normal or mutant human cMYC can convert weakly tumorigenic human PNEC cells, derived from a human ESC line and depleted of tumor suppressors RB1 and TP53, into highly malignant, metastatic SCLC-like cancers after implantation into the renal capsule of immunodeficient mice.". 

      Strengths: 

      The in vivo study of a human preclinical model of SCLC demonstrates the important role of c-Myc in the development of a malignant phenotype and metastases. Also the role of c-Myc in selecting for expression of NEUROD1 lineage oncogene expression. 

      Weaknesses: 

      There are no data on results from an orthotopic (pulmonary) implantation on generation of metastases; no comparative study of other myc family members (MYCL, MYCN); no indication of analyses of other common metastatic sites found in SCLC (e.g. brain, adrenal gland, lymph nodes, bone marrow); no studies of response to standard platin-etoposide doublet chemotherapy; no data on the status of NEUROD1 and ASCL1 expression in the individual metastatic lesions they identified. 

      We have acknowledged from the outset that our study has significant limitations, as noted by this reviewer, and we explained in our initial letter of response why we need to present this limited, but still consequential, story at this time. 

      In particular, while we have attempted orthotopic transplantations of RPM tumor cells into NSG mice (by tail vein or intra-pulmonary injection, or intra-tracheal instillation of tumor cells), these methods were not successful in colonizing the lung. Additionally, we have compared the efficacy of platinum/etoposide to that of removing DOX in established RPM subcutaneous tumors, but we chose not to include these data as we lacked a chemotherapy responsive tumor model, and thus could not say with confidence that the chemotherapeutic agants were active and that the RPM models were truly resistant to standard SCLC chemotherapy. In a discussion about other metastatic sites, we have now included the following text: 

      “In animals administered DOX, histological examinations showed that approximately half developed metastases in distant organs, including the liver or lung (Figure 1D). No metastases were observed in the bone, brain, or lymph nodes. For a more detailed assessment, future studies could employ more sensitive imaging methods, such as luciferase imaging.”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Technical points related to Major Weakness #1: 

      For Figure 4: Cells were enriched for EGFP-high cells only, under the hypothesis that cells with lower EGFP may have silenced expression of the integrated vector. Since EGFP is expressed only in the shRB1 construct, selection for high EGFP may inadvertently alter/exclude heterogeneity within the transformed population for the other transgenes (shP53, shMYC/MYC-T58A). Can authors include data to show the expression of MYC/MYC T58A in EGFP-high v -med v-low cells? MYC levels may alter the NEdifferentiation status of tumor cells. 

      Please now refer to Supplemental Figure S2.

      Related to the appropriateness of the methods for Figure 4C, the authors state, "We performed differential cluster abundance analysis after accounting for the fraction of cells that were EGFP+". If only EGFP+ cells were accounted for in the analysis for 4C, the majority of RP cells in the "Neuroendocrine differentiated" cluster would not be included in the analysis (according to EGFP expression in Fig S1A-B), and therefore inappropriately reduce NE identity compared to RPM samples that have higher levels of EGFP. 

      There is no consideration or analysis of cell cycling/proliferation until after the conclusion is stated. Yet, increased proliferation of MYC-high vs MYC-low cultures would enhance selection for more tumors (termed "NE-diff") than non-tumors (basal/fibroblast) in 2D cultures. 

      The expression of MYC itself isn't assessed for this analysis but assumed, and whether higher levels of MYC/MYC-T58A may be present in EGFP+ tumor cells that are in the NE-low populations isn't clear. Can MYC-T58A/HA also be included in the reference genome? 

      We did not include an HA tag in our reference transcriptome. For [some] answers to this and other related questions, please refer to Supplemental Figure S2.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      (1) The experiments are all technically well done and clearly presented and represent a logical extension exploring the role of c-Myc in the hESC experimental model system. 

      We appreciate this supportive comment!

      (2) It is of great interest that both the initial RP model only forms "benign" tumors and that with the addition of a strong oncogene like c-myc, where expression is known to be associated with a very bad prognosis in SCLC, that while one gets tumor formation there are still occasional mice both for subcutaneous and renal capsule test sites that don't get tumors even with the injection of 500,000 RPM/RPMT58A cells. In addition, of the mice that do form tumors, only ~50% exhibit metastases from the renal sub-capsule site. The authors need to comment on this further in their Discussion. To me, this illustrates both how incredibly resistant/difficult it is to form metastases, thus indicating the need for other pathways to be activated to achieve such spread, and also represents an opportunity for further functional genomic tests using their preclinical model to systematically attack this problem. Obvious candidate genes are those recently identified in genetically engineered mouse models (GEMMs) related to neuronal behavior. In addition, we already know that full-fledged patient-derived SCLC when injected subcutaneously into immune-deprived mice don't exhibit metastases - thus, while the hESC RPM result is not surprising, it indicates to me the power of their model (logs less complicated genetically than a patient SCLC) to sort through a mechanism that would allow metastases to develop from subcutaneous sites. The authors can point these things out in their Discussion section to provide a "roadmap" for future research. 

      Although we remain mindful of the relatively small cohorts we have studied, the thrust of Reviewer #3’s comments is now included in the Discussion. And there is, of course, a lot more to do, and it has taken several years already to get to this point. Additional information about the prolonged gestation of this project and about the difficulties of doing more in the near future was described in our initial response to reviewers/Editor, included near the start of this letter.    

      (3) I will state the obvious that this paper would be much more valuable if they had compared and contrasted at least one of the myc family members (MYCL or MYCN) with the CMYC findings whatever the results would be. Most SCLC patients develop metastases, and most of their tumors don't express high levels of CMYC (and often use MYCL). In any event, as the authors Discuss, this will be an important next stage to test.

      We have acknowledged and explained the limitations of the work in several ways. Further, we were unaware of the relationship between metastases and the expression of MYC and MYCL1 noted by the reviewer; we will look for confirmation of this association in any future studies, although we have not encountered it in current literature.

      (4) Their assays for metastases involved looking for anatomically "gross" lesions. While that is fine, particularly given that the "gross" lesions they show in figures are actually pretty small, we still need to know if they performed straightforward autopsies on mice and looked for other well-known sites of metastases in SCLC patients besides liver and lung - namely lymph nodes, adrenal, bone marrow, and brain. I would guess these would probably not show metastatic growth but with the current report, we don't know if these were looked for or not. Again, while this could be a "negative" result, the paper's value would be increased by these simple data. Let's assume no metastases are seen, then the authors could further strengthen the case for the value of their hESC model in systematically exploring with functional genomics the requirements to achieve metastases to these other sites.

      We have included descriptions of what we found and didn’t find at other potential sites of metastasis in the results section, with the following sentences: 

      “In animals administered DOX, histological examinations showed that approximately half developed metastases in distant organs, including the liver or lung (Figure 1D). No metastases were observed in the bone, brain, or lymph nodes. For a more detailed assessment, future studies could employ more sensitive imaging methods, such as luciferase imaging.”

      (5) Related to this, we have no idea if the mice that developed liver metastases (or the one mouse with lung metastasis) had more than one metastatic site. They will know this and should report it. Again, my guess is that these were isolated metastases in each mouse. Again, they can indicate the value of their model in searching for programs that would increase the number of the various organs. 

      We appreciate the suggestion. We observed that one of the mice developed metastatic tumors in both the liver and lungs. This information has been incorporated into the Results section.

      (6) While renal capsule implantation for testing growth and metastatic behavior is reasonable and based on substantial literature using this site for implantation of patient tumor specimens, what would have increased the value of the paper is knowing the results from orthotopic (lung implantation). Whatever the results were (they occurred or did not occur) they will be important to know. I understand the "future experiments" argument, but in reading the manuscript this jumped out at me as an obvious thing for the authors to try. 

      We conducted orthotopic implantation several ways, including via intra-tracheal instillation of 0.5 million RP or RPM cells in PBS per mouse. However, none of the subjects (0/5 mice) developed tumor-like growths and the number of animals used was small. Further, this outcome could be attributed to biological or physical factors. For instance, the conducting airway is coated with secretory cells producing protective mucins and may not have retained the 0.5 million cells. This is one example that may have hindered effective colonization. Future adjustments, such as increasing the number of cells, embedding them in Matrigel, or damaging the airway to denude secretory cells and trigger regeneration might alter the outcomes. These ideas might guide future work to strengthen the utility of the models.

      (7) Another obvious piece of data that would have improved the value of this manuscript would be to know whether the RPM tumors responded to platin-etoposide chemotherapy. Such data was not presented in their first RP hESC notch inhibition paper (which we now know generated what the authors call "benign" tumors). While I realize chemotherapy responses represent other types of experiments, as the authors point out one of the main reasons they developed their new human model was for therapy testing. Two papers in and we are all still asking - does their model respond or not respond dramatically to platin-etoposide therapy? Whatever the results are they are a vital next step in considering the use of their model. 

      Please see the comments above regarding our decision not to include data from a clinical trial that lacked appropriate controls.

      (8) The finding of RPM cells that expressed NEUROD1, ASCL1, or both was interesting. From the way the data were presented, I don't have a clear idea which of these lineage oncogenes the metastatic lesions from ~11 different mice expressed. Whatever the result is it would be useful to know - all NEUROD1, some ASCL1, some mixed etc.

      Based on the bulk RNA-sequencing of a few metastatic sites (Figure 4H), what we can demonstrate is that all sites were NEUROD1 and expressed low or no detectable  ASCL1.

      (9) While several H&E histologic images were presented, even when I enlarged them to 400% I couldn't clearly see most of them. For future reference, I think it would be important to have several high-quality images of the RP, RPM, RPMT58A subcutaneous tumors, sub-renal capsule tumors, and liver and lung metastatic lesions. If there is heterogeneity in the primary tumors or the metastases it would be important to show this. The quality of the images they have in the pdf file is suboptimal. If they have already provided higher-quality images - great. If not, I think in the long run as people come back to this paper, it will help both the field and the authors to have really great images of their tumors and metastases. 

      We have attempted to improve the quality of the embedded images. Digital resolution is a tradeoff with data size – higher resolution images are always available upon request, but may not be suitable  for generation of figures in a manuscript viewed on-line.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer 1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Here the authors convincingly identify and characterize the SERBP1 interactome and further define its role in the nucleus, where it is associated with complexes involved in splicing, cell division, chromosome structure, and ribosome biogenesis. Many of the SERBP1-associated proteins are RNA-binding proteins and SERBP1 exerts its impact, at least in part, through these players. SERBP1 is mostly disordered but along with its associated proteins displays a preference for G4 binding and can bind to PAR and be PARylated. They present data that strongly suggest that complexes in which SERBP1 participates are assembled through G4 or PAR binding. The authors suggest that because SERBP1 lacks traditional functional domains yet is clearly involved in distinct regulatory complexes, SERBP1 likely acts in the early steps of assembly through the recognition of interacting sites present in RNA, DNA, and proteins.

      Strengths:

      The data is very convincing and demonstrated through multiple approaches.

      Weaknesses:

      No weaknesses were identified by this reviewer.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study the authors have used pull-down experiments in a cell line overexpressing tagged SERPINE1 mRNA binding protein 1 (SERBP1) followed by mass spectrometry-based proteomics, to establish its interactome. Extensive analyses are performed to connect the data to published resources. The authors attempt to connect SERBP1 to stress granules and Alzheimer's disease-associated tau pathology. Based on the interactome, the authors propose a cross-talk between SERBP1 and PARP1 functions.

      Strengths:

      The main strength of this study lies in the proteomics data analysis, and its effort to connect the data to published studies.

      Weaknesses:

      While the authors propose a feedback regulatory model for SERBP1 and PARP1 functions, strong evidence for PARylation modulating SERBP1 functions is lacking. PARP inhibition decreasing the amount of PARylated proteins associated with SERBP1 and likely all other PARylated proteins is expected. This study is also incomplete in its attempt to establish a connection to Alzheimer's disease related tauopathy. A single AD case is not sufficient, and frozen autopsy tissue shows unexplained punctate staining likely due to poor preservation of cellular structures for immunohistochemistry. There is a lack of essential demographic data, source of the tissue, brain regions shown, and whether there was an IRB protocol for the human brain tissue. The presence of phase-separated transient stress granules in an autopsy brain is unlikely, even if G3BP1 staining is present. Normally, stress granule proteins move to the cytoplasm under cellular stress, whereas SERBP1 becomes nuclear. The co-localization of abundant cytoplasmic G3BP1 and SERBP1 under normal conditions does not indicate an association with stress granules.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      A survey of SERBP1-associated functions and their impact on the transcriptome upon gene depletion, as well as the identification of chemical inhibitors upon gene over-expression.

      Strengths:

      (1) Provides a valuable resource for the community, supported by statistical analyses.

      (2) Offers a survey of different processes with correlation data, serving as a good starting point for the community to follow up.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors provided numerous correlations on diverse topics, from cell division to RNA splicing and PARP1 association, but did not follow up their findings with experiments, offering little mechanistic insight into the actual role of SERBP1. The model in Figure 5D is entirely speculative and lacks data support in the manuscript.

      Our article includes several pieces of evidence that support SERBP1’s role in splicing, translation, cell division and association with PARP1. We respectfully disagree that the model in Figure 5D is speculative. The goal of our study was to generate initial evidence of SERBP1 involvement in different biological processes based on its interactome. The characterization of molecular mechanisms in all these scenarios requires a substantial amount work and will the topic of follow up manuscripts. 

      (2) Following up with experiments to demonstrate that their findings are real (e.g., those related to splicing defects and the PARylation/PAR-binding association) would be beneficial. For example, whether the association between PARP1 and SERBP1 is sensitive to PAR-degrading enzymes is unclear.

      We included experiments showing the interaction between endogenous SERBP1 and PARP1. Additionally, we demonstrated that SERBP1 interaction with PARP1 was disrupted when cells are treated with PARP inhibitors.

      (3) They did not clearly articulate how experiments were performed. For instance, the drug screen and even the initial experiment involving the pull-down were poorly described. Many in the community may not be familiar with vectors such as pSBP or pUltra without looking up details.

      We provided additional details about the vectors and expanded the description of experiments in results and figure legends.

      (4) The co-staining of SERBP1 with pTau, PARP1, and G3BP1 in the brain is interesting, but it would be beneficial to follow up with immunoprecipitation in normal and patient samples to confirm the increased physical association.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We performed instead a Proximity Ligation Assay (PLA) on human tissue. Data was included in Fig. 7B and C. PLA between pTau and SERBP1 confirmed interaction in AD cortices as well as SERBP1 with PARP1.

      (5) The combination index of 0.7-0.9 for PJ34 + siSERBP1 is weak. Could this be due to the non-specific nature of the drug against other PARPs? Have the authors looked into this possibility?

      The combination index could be considered weak in the case of U251 cells but not in the case of U343 cells. PJ34 has been shown to be mainly a PARP-1 inhibitor. Different PJ34 concentrations and different drugs will be examined in future studies. It is worth mentioning that in a genetic screening, SERBP1 has been shown to increase sensitivity to different PARP inhibitors (PMID: 37160887). This information is included in the manuscript.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      This is a really well-done piece of research that is written very well. The data are very convincing and the conclusions are well supported. Some wording in Figures 2B and D is pixelated and hard to read. All the figure legends could benefit from being expanded but this is especially true for Figures 2, 3, 7, and 8. There is a ton of data being presented and a very limited description of what was done and what is being concluded. Some of the content may not be fully comprehended by some readers with limited descriptions.

      We revised all figures to assure images are clear and their resolution is high. We expanded all figure legends to provide a better explanation of the experimental design.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The "merged" pdf file is the same as the "article".

      Individual files were uploaded this time.

      The abstract should spell out acronyms, such as the name of the protein Serpine1 mRNA-binding protein 1 (SERBP1).

      This was not included since the abstract has a word limit.

      "SERBP1 (Serpine1 mRNA-binding protein 1) is a unique member of this group of RBPs". In what way is it unique?

      The text was modified to better explain SERBP1’s singularities.

      "RBPs containing IDRs and RGG motifs are particularly relevant in the nervous system. Their misfolding contributes to the formation of pathological protein aggregates in Alzheimer's disease (AD), Frontotemporal Lobar Dementia (FTLD), Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS), and Parkinson's disease (PD)" -> while TDP-43 and FUS in ALS/FTD may fit this description, it is not true for tau and amyloid-beta (AD) and alpha-synuclein (PD).

      "SERBP1 is a unique RBPs containing IDRs and RGG motifs yet lacks other readily recognizable, canonical or structured RNA binding motifs. Moreover, SERBP1 has been observed by our study and others as common Tau interactor in Alzheimer’s Disease (AD) brains. RBPs containing IDRs (e.g. TDP-43, FUS, hnRNPs, TIA1) have been shown self-aggregate and co-aggregate with pathogenic amyloids (Tau, Aβ-amyloid and α-Synuclein)  in AD, Frontotemporal Lobar Dementia (FTLD), Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS), and Parkinson's disease (PD) and this suggest that, like other IDRs RBPs, SERBP1 contributes to RNA dysmetabolism in neurodegenerative diseases”.

      While the authors propose a feedback regulatory model for SERBP1 and PARP1 functions, strong evidence for PARylation modulating SERBP1 functions is lacking. The fact that PARP inhibition decreases the amount of PARylated proteins associated with SERBP1 and likely all other PARylated proteins is expected and cannot count as evidence.

      We included data showing that treatment with PJ34 (PARP inhibitor) decreases SERBP1 interaction with PARP1 and G3BP1. We are currently conducting a more extensive analysis to identify SERBP1 PAR binding domain and the impact of PARP inhibition on its interactions and functions. These experiments will be included in a new manuscript.

      A single AD case is not sufficient.

      Sorry for the poor clarity. We included in the study 6 cases from age-matched controls and 6 cases of AD. We summarize all cases demographics, and the experimental application assigned to each case in Table 1. Moreover, we included a paragraph regarding Human tissue harvesting.

      Most western blot data are not quantified from multiple replicates, as required.

      Quantifications are now provided.

      FTLD - frontotemporal lobar degeneration (not dementia).

      This was corrected.

      Frozen autopsy tissue is problematic due to poor preservation. The staining presented here shows unexplained punctate staining likely due to poor preservation of cellular structures for immunohistochemistry.

      We included a paragraph regarding human tissue harvesting. We have successfully used frozen tissues in our previous studies, observing a well preserved neuronal and tissue structure (PMIDs: 32855391, 31532069 and 30367664)

      The presence of phase-separated stress granules in tissue is controversial since these are transient structures.

      Normally, stress granule proteins move to the cytoplasm under cellular stress, whereas SERBP1 becomes nuclear. The co-localization of abundant (and partially overexposed) cytoplasmic G3BP1 and SERBP1 under normal conditions is not evidence for association with stress granules. Does induction of stress granule formation lead to colocalization in stress granules? The H2O2 experiment suggests otherwise.

      RBPs implicated in stress response move to stress granules when cells are exposed to stress. SERBP1 has been shown to shuttle to stress granules and nucleus in stress conditions (PMID: 24205981). Our results are in agreement.

      Using co-IF, we observed some overlap between G3BP1 and SERBP1 in AD tissues. As shown in Fig. S6A and B, 50% of stress granules overlap with SERBP1 signal. On the contrary, it is hard to assess their relationship in aged-matched control brains where stress granules form and accumulate with a lower rate than in AD. SERBP1 is not very abundant in normal brains.  It is known that RNA-Binding Proteins aggregation and/or dysfunctional LLPS dysregulate stress granules formation and accumulation in AD and other proteinopathies (PMIDs 30853299, 27256390 and 31911437). However, it is too early to determine the role of SERBP1 and its contribution to stress granules formation and accumulation. We will examine this topic in future studies.

      There is a lack of essential demographics data (age, clinical diagnosis, path diagnosis, co-pathologies, Braak stage, etc.), source of the tissue (what brain bank?), brain regions shown, and whether there was informed consent for the collection and use of human brain tissue.

      We included the information requested in materials and methods section.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors need to better explain their experimental rationale and approach in the main text, not just in the supplementary materials.

      We have extensively revised the text to provide a better description of experiments in the results section and figure legends.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In cells undergoing Flavivirus infection, cellular translation is impaired but the viruses themselves escape this inhibition and are efficiently translated. In this study, the authors use very elegant and direct approaches to identify the regions in the 5' and 3' UTRs that are important for this phenomenon and then use them to retrieve two cellular proteins that associate with them and mediate translational shutoff evasion (DDX3 and PABP1). A number of experimental approaches are used with a series of well-controlled experiments that fully support the authors' conclusions.

      Strengths:

      The work identifies the regions in the 5' and 3' UTRs of the viral genome that mediate the escape of JEV from cellular transcriptional shutoff, they evaluate the infectivity of the mutant viruses bearing or not these structures and even explore their pathogenicity in mice. They then identify the cellular proteins that bind to these regions (DDX3 and PABP1) and determine their role in translation blockade escape, in addition to examining and assessing the conservation of the stem-loop identified in JEV in other Flaviviridae.

      In almost all of their systematic analyses, translational effects are put in parallel with the replication kinetics of the different mutant viruses. The experimental thread followed in this study is rigorous and direct, and all experiments are truly well-controlled, fully supporting the authors' conclusions.

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer's recognition of this study. We elucidated the role of UTR in translation blockade escape of JEV from the perspective of the RNA structure of the UTR and its interaction with host proteins (DDX3 and PABP1), and we hope that this study could gain wider recognition.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors use a combination of techniques including viral genetics, in vitro reporters, and purified proteins and RNA to interrogate how the Japanese encephalitis virus maintains translation of its RNA to produce viral proteins after the host cell has shut down general translation as a means to block viral replication. They report a role for the RNA helicase DDX3 in promoting virus translation in a cap-independent manner through binding a dumbbell RNA structure in the 3' untranslated region previously reported to drive Japanese encephalitis virus cap-independent translation and a stem-loop at the viral RNA 5' end.

      Strengths:

      The authors clearly show that the Japanese encephalitis virus does not possess an IRES activity to initiate translation using a range of mono- and bi-cistronic mRNAs. Surprisingly, using a replicon system, the translation of a capped or uncapped viral RNA is reported to have the same translation efficiency when transfected into cells. The authors have applied a broad range of techniques to support their hypotheses.

      We are grateful for the reviewer’s recognition of the thoroughness and multi-faceted nature of our study.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors' original experiments in Figure 1 where the virus is recovered following transfection of in vitro transcribed viral RNA with alternative 5' ends such as capped or uncapped ignore that after a single replication cycle of that transfected RNA, the subsequent viral RNA will be capped by the viral capping proteins making the RNA in all conditions the same.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We share the same viewpoint as the reviewer. After the first round of translation of the uncapped viral RNA, the subsequent viral RNA will inevitably be capped by the viral capping proteins. However, there is no doubt that the transfected cells do not contain viral capping proteins in the initial transfection stage, which directly proved that JEV possesses a cap-independent translation initiation mechanism.

      (2) The authors report that deletion of the dumbbell and the large 3' stem-loop RNA reduce replication of a Japanese encephalitis virus replicon. These structures have been reported for other flaviviruses to be important respectively for the accumulation of short flaviviral RNAs that can regulate replication and stability of the viral RNA that lacks a polyA tail. The authors don't show any assessment of RNA stability or degradation state.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We agree that a rigorous supplementary experiment for the assessment of RNA stability or degradation state is desirable. To address this, the relative amounts of viral RNA with the deletion of DB2 or sHP-SL will be determined by real-time RT-PCR analysis in transfected cells at multiple time points, which will allow us to test whether the deletion of the dumbbell and the large 3' stem-loop RNA reduce the RNA stability of JEV.

      (3) The authors propose a model for DDX3 to drive 5'-3' end interaction of the Japanese encephalitis virus viral genome but no direct evidence for this is presented.

      Thank you for your suggestion. In this study, we did not have direct evidence to suggest that DDX3 can drive the 5'-3' end interaction of the Japanese encephalitis virus viral genome, which is indeed a limitation of our research. In the revision, we will more explicitly discuss the interrelationship between DDX3 and 5'-3' UTR, as well as incorporate a discussion of these points into the main text, acknowledging the limitations of our current models.

      (4) The authors' final model in Figure 10 proposes a switch from a cap-dependent translation system in early infection to cap-independent DDX3-driven translation system late in infection. The replicon data that measures translation directly however shows identical traces for capped and uncapped RNAs in all untreated conditions so that which mechanism is used at different stages of the infection is not clear.

      Thank you for your suggestion. The replicon transfection system was used to evaluate the key viral element for cap-independent translation. We only monitored reporter gene expression from 2 hpt to 12 hpt, which can’t fully recapitulate the different stages of JEV infection. In the experimental results Figure 1 and Figure 1-figure supplement 1, we demonstrated that JEV significantly induced the host translational shutoff at 36 hpi, while the expression level of viral protein gradually increased as infection went on, suggesting that JEV translation could evade the shutoff of cap-dependent translation initiation at the late stage of infection. As shown in the growth curves in Figure 5Q, JEV replicated to similar virus titers in WT and DDX3-KO cells from 12 hpi to 36 hpi, but higher level virus yields were observed in WT cells from 48 hpi, suggesting that DDX3 is important for JEV infection at the late stage. DDX3 was demonstrated to be critical for JEV cap-independent translation. Based on these data, we proposed that the DDX3-dependent cap-independent translation is employed by JEV to maintain efficient infection at the late stage when the cap-dependent translation imitation was suppressed.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work is a valuable study that aims to decipher the molecular mechanisms underlying the translation process in Japanese encephalitis virus (JEV), a relevant member of the genus Flavivirus. The authors provide evidence that cap-independent translation, which has already been demonstrated for other flaviviruses, could also account in JEV. This process depends on the genomic 3' UTR, as previously demonstrated in other flaviviruses. Further, the authors find that cellular proteins such as DDX3 or PABP1 could contribute to JEV translation in a cap-independent way. Both DDX3 and PABP1 had previously been described to have a role in cellular protein synthesis and also in the translation step of other flaviviruses distinct from JEV; therefore, this work would expand the cap-independent translation in flaviviruses as a general mechanism to bypass the translation repression exerted by the host cell during viral infection. Further, the findings can be relevant for the development of specific drugs that could interfere with flaviviral translation in the future. Nevertheless, the conclusions are not fully supported by the provided results.

      Strengths:

      The results provide a good starting point to investigate the molecular mechanism underlying the translation in flaviviruses, which even today is an area of knowledge with many limitations.

      Thank you to the reviewer for providing positive feedback. The research on the molecular mechanism underlying cap-independent translation is still a limited field in the flaviviruses, and its mechanism has not been well elucidated at present. We only hope that this study could reveal a novel mechanism of translation initiation for flaviviruses.

      Weaknesses:

      The main limit of the work is related to the fact that the role of the 3' UTR structural elements and DDX3 is not only circumscribed to translation, but also to replication and encapsidation. In fact, some of the provided results suggest this idea. Particularly, it is intriguing why the virus titer can be completely abrogated while the viral protein levels are only partially affected by the knockdown of DDX3. This points to the fact that many of the drawn conclusions could be overestimated or, at least, all the observed effect cannot be attributed only to the DDX3 effect on translation. Finally, it is noteworthy that the use of uncapped transcripts could be misleading, since this is not the natural molecular context of the viral genome.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We agree with the reviewer's comments that the role of the 3' UTR structural elements and DDX3 may not only be circumscribed to translation. However, not as described by the reviewer, DDX3 knockdown did not completely abrogate JEV infection. As indicated in Figure 5E-5F, the recombinant virus was successfully rescued at 36 hpt and 48 hpt using the uncapped viral genomic RNA, although the viral titer rescued with the uncapped genomic RNA at 24 hpt was below the limit of detection. We have confirmed that the DB2 and sHP-SL elements in 3' UTR play a decisive role in the replication of viral RNA in our research (Figure 2G and Figure 2-figure supplement 4C), and we will further analyze the role of DDX3 in viral RNA replication and encapsidation, thereby clarifying the multiple functions of DDX3 in JEV life cycle. Meanwhile, we will incorporate a discussion of these points into the main text, acknowledging the limitations of our current research.

      To eliminate the misleading effects of using uncapped transcripts, we will use a natural molecular background of the viral genome with cap methylation deficiency. The methyltransferase (MTase) of the flavivirus NS5 protein catalyzes  N-7 and 2’-O methylations in the formation of the 5’-end cap of the genome, and the E218 amino acid of the NS5 protein MTase domain is one of the active sites of flavivirus methyltransferase (PLoS Pathogens. 2012. PMID:22496660; Journal of Virology. 2007. PMID: 1866096). We will construct a mutant virus of the E218A mutation to abolish 2'-O methylation activity and significantly reduce N-7 methylation activity and then analyze the roles of UTR structure and DDX3 in recombinant viruses with the type-I cap structure functional deficiency.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors revealed the cellular heterogeneity of companion cells (CCs) and demonstrated that the florigen gene FT is highly expressed in a specific subpopulation of these CCs in Arabidopsis. Through a thorough characterization of this subpopulation, they further identified NITRATE-INDUCIBLE GARP-TYPE TRANSCRIPTIONAL REPRESSOR 1 (NIGT1)-like transcription factors as potential new regulators of FT. Overall, these findings are intriguing and valuable, contributing significantly to our understanding of florigen and the photoperiodic flowering pathway. However, there is still room for improvement in the quality of the data and the depth of the analysis. I have several comments that may be beneficial for the authors.

      Strengths:

      The usage of snRNA-seq to characterize the FT-expressing companion cells (CCs) is very interesting and important. Two findings are novel: 1) Expression of FT in CCs is not uniform. Only a subcluster of CCs exhibits high expression level of FT. 2) Based on consensus binding motifs enriched in this subcluster, they further identify NITRATE-INDUCIBLE GARP-TYPE TRANSCRIPTIONAL REPRESSOR 1 (NIGT1)-like transcription factors as potential new regulators of FT.

      We are pleased to hear that reviewer 1 noted the novelty and importance of our work. As reviewer 1 mentioned, we are also excited about the identification of a subcluster of companion cells with very high FT expression. We believe that this work is an initial step to describe the molecular characteristics of these FT-expressing cells. We are also excited to share our new findings on NIGT1_s as potential _FT regulators. We think that this finding attracts broader audiences, as the molecular factor that coordinates plant nutrition status with flowering time remains largely unknown despite its well-known plant phenomenon.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Title: "A florigen-expressing subpopulation of companion cells". It is a bit misleading. The conclusion here is that only a subset of companion cells exhibit high expression of FT, but this does not imply that other companion cells do not express it at all.

      We agree with this comment, as we also did not intend to say that FT is not produced in other companion cells than the subpopulation we identified. We will revise the title to more accurately reflect the point.

      (2) Data quality: Authors opted for fluorescence-activated nuclei sorting (FANS) instead of traditional cell sorting method. What is the rationale behind this decision? Readers may wonder, especially given that RNA abundance in single nuclei is generally lower than that in single cells. This concern also applies to snRNA-seq data. Specifically, the number of genes captured was quite low, with a median of only 149 genes per nucleus. Additionally, the total number of nuclei analyzed was limited (1,173 for the pFT:NTF and 3,650 for the pSUC2:NTF). These factors suggest that the quality of the snRNA-seq data presented in this study is quite low. In this context, it becomes challenging for the reviewer to accurately assess whether this will impact the subsequent conclusions of the paper. Would it be possible to repeat this experiment and get more nuclei?

      We appreciate this comment; we noticed that we did not clearly explain the rationale of using single-nucleus RNA sequencing (snRNA-seq) instead of single-cell RNA-seq (scRNA-seq). As reviewer 1 mentioned, RNA abundance in scRNA-seq is higher than in snRNA-seq. To conduct scRNA-seq using plant cells, protoplasting is the necessary step. However, in our study, protoplasting has many drawbacks in isolating our target cells from the phloem. It is technically challenging to efficiently isolate protoplasts from highly embedded phloem companion cells from plant tissues. Usually, it requires a minimum of several hours of enzymatic incubation to protoplast companion cells and the efficiencies of protoplasting these cells are still low. For our analysis, restoring the time information within a day is also crucial. Therefore, we performed more speedy isolation method. In the revision, we will explain our rationale of choosing snRNA-seq due to the technical limitations.

      Here, reviewer 1 raised a concern about the quality of our snRNA-seq data, referring to the relatively low readcounts per nucleus. Although we believe that shallow reads do not necessaryily indicate low quality and are confident in the accuracy of our snRNA-seq data, as supported by the detailed follow-up experiments (e.g., imaging analysis in Fig. 4B), we agree that it is important to address this point in the revision and alleviate readers’ concerns regarding the data quality.

      (3) Another disappointment is that the authors did not utilize reporter genes to identify the specific locations of the FT-high expressing cells (cluster 7 cells) within the CC population in vivo. Are there any discernible patterns that can be observed?

      As we previously showed only limited spatial images of overlap between FT-expressing cells and other cluster 7 gene-expressing cells in Fig. 4B, this comment is understandable. To respond to it, we will include whole leaf images of FT- and cluster 7 gene-expressing cells to assess the spatial overlaps between FT and cluster 7 genes within a leaf.

      (4) The final disappointment is that the authors only compared FT expression between the nigtQ mutants and the wild type. Does this imply that the mutant does not have a flowering time defect particularly under high nitrogen conditions?

      To answer this question, we will include the flowering time measurement data of the nigtQ mutants grown on the soil with sufficient nitrogen sources.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This manuscript submitted by Takagi et al. details the molecular characterization of the FT-expressing cell at a single-cell level. The authors examined what genes are expressed specifically in FT-expressing cells and other phloem companion cells by exploiting bulk nuclei and single-nuclei RNA-seq and transgenic analysis. The authors found the unique expression profile of FT-expressing cells at a single-cell level and identified new transcriptional repressors of FT such as NIGT1.2 and NIGT1.4.

      Although previous researchers have known that FT is expressed in phloem companion cells, they have tended to neglect the molecular characterization of the FT-expressing phloem companion cells. To understand how FT, which is expressed in tiny amounts in phloem companion cells that make up a very small portion of the leaf, can be a key molecule in the regulation of the critical developmental step of floral transition, it is important to understand the molecular features of FT-expressing cells in detail. In this regard, this manuscript provides insight into the understanding of detailed molecular characteristics of the FT-expressing cell. This endeavor will contribute to the research field of flowering time.

      We are grateful that reviewer 2 recognizes the importance of transcriptome profiling of FT-expressing cells at the single-cell level.

      Here are my comments on how to improve this manuscript.

      (1) The most noble finding of this manuscript is the identification of NTGI1.2 as the upstream regulator of FT-expressing cluster 7 gene expression. The flowering phenotypes of the nigtQ mutant and the transgenic plants in which NIGT1.2 was expressed under the SUC2 gene promoter support that NIGT1.2 functions as a floral repressor upstream of the FT gene. Nevertheless, the expression patterns of NIGT1.2 genes do not appear to have much overlap with those of NIGT1.2-downstream genes in the cluster 7 (Figs S14 and F3). An explanation for this should be provided in the discussion section.

      We agree reviewer 2 that spatial expression patterns of NIGT1.2 and cluster 7 genes do not overlap much, and some discussion should be provided in the manuscript. Although we do not have a concrete answer for this phenomenon, NIGT1.2 may suppress FT gene expression in non-cluster 7 cells to prevent the misexpression of FT. Another possible explanation is that NIGT1.2 negatively affects the formation of cluster 7 cells. If so, cells with high NIGT1.2 gene expression hardly become cluster 7 cells. We will discuss it further in the discussion section in our revised manuscript.

      (2) To investigate gene expression in the nuclei of specific cell populations, the authors generated transgenic plants expressing a fusion gene encoding a Nuclear Targeting Fusion protein (NTF) under the control of various cell type-specific promoters. Since the public audience would not know about NTF without reading reference 16, some explanation of NTF is necessary in the manuscript. Please provide a schematic of constructs the authors used to make the transformants.

      As reviewer 2 pointed out, we lacked a clear explanation why we used NTF in this study. NTF is the fusion protein that consists of a nuclear envelope targeting domain, GFP, and biotin acceptor peptide. It was originally designed for the INTACT (isolation of nuclei tagged in specific cell types) method that enables us to isolate bulk nuclei from specific tissues. Although our original intention was profiling the bulk transcriptome of mRNAs that exist in nuclei of the FT-expressing cells using INTACT, we utilized our NTF transgenic lines for snRNA-seq analysis. To explain what NTF is to readers, we will include a schematic diagram of NTF.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      We have carefully addressed all the reviewers' suggestions, and detailed responses are provided at the end of this letter. In summary:

      • We conducted two additional replicates of the study to obtain more robust and reliable data.

      • The Introduction has been revised for greater clarity and conciseness.

      • The Results section was shortened and reorganized to highlight the key findings more effectively.

      • The Discussion was modified according to the reviewers' suggestions, with a focus on reorganization and conciseness.

      We hope you find this revised version of the manuscript satisfactory.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study examines the role of host blood meal source, temperature, and photoperiod on the reproductive traits of Cx. quinquefasciatus, an important vector of numerous pathogens of medical importance. The host use pattern of Cx. quinquefasciatus is interesting in that it feeds on birds during spring and shifts to feeding on mammals towards fall. Various hypotheses have been proposed to explain the seasonal shift in host use in this species but have provided limited evidence. This study examines whether the shifting of host classes from birds to mammals towards autumn offers any reproductive advantages to Cx. quinquefasciatus in terms of enhanced fecundity, fertility, and hatchability of the offspring. The authors found no evidence of this, suggesting that alternate mechanisms may drive the seasonal shift in host use in Cx. quinquefasciatus.

      Strengths:

      Host blood meal source, temperature, and photoperiod were all examined together.

      Weaknesses:

      The study was conducted in laboratory conditions with a local population of Cx. quinquefasciatus from Argentina. I'm not sure if there is any evidence for a seasonal shift in the host use pattern in Cx. quinquefasciatus populations from the southern latitudes.

      Comments on the revision: 

      Overall, I am not quite convinced about the possible shift in host use in the Argentinian populations of Cx. quinquefasciatus. The evidence from the papers that the authors cite is not strong enough to derive this conclusion. Therefore, I think that the introduction and discussion parts where they talk about host shift in Cx. quinquefasciatus should be removed completely as it misleads the readers. I suggest limiting the manuscript to talking only about the effects of blood meal source and seasonality on the reproductive outcomes of Cx. quinquefasciatus

      As mentioned in the previous revision, we agree on the reviewer observation about the lack of evidence on seasonal shift in the host use pattern in Cx. quinquefasciatus populations from Argentina. We include this topic in the discussion.

      Additionally, we also added a paragraph in the discussion section to include the limitations of our study and conclusions. One of them is the fact that our results are based on controlled conditions experiments. Future studies are needed to elucidate if the same trend is found in the field.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      Abstract

      Line 73: shift in feeding behavior

      Accepted as suggested. 

      Discussion

      Line 258: addressed that Accepted as suggested.

      Line 263: blood is nutritionally richer

      Accepted as suggested.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary:

      Conceptually, this study is interesting and is the first attempt to account for the potentially interactive effects of seasonality and blood source on mosquito fitness, which the authors frame as a possible explanation for previously observed host-switching of Culex quinquefasciatus from birds to mammals in the fall. The authors hypothesize that if changes in fitness by blood source change between seasons, higher fitness on birds in the summer and on mammals in the autumn could drive observed host switching. To test this, the authors fed individuals from a colony of Cx. quinquefasciatus on chickens (bird model) and mice (mammal model) and subjected each of these two groups to two different environmental conditions reflecting the high and low temperatures and photoperiod experienced in summer and autumn in Córdoba, Argentina (aka seasonality). They measured fecundity, fertility, and hatchability over two gonotrophic cycles. The authors then used a generalized linear model to evaluate the impact of host species, seasonality, and gonotrophic cycle on fecundity, fertility, and hatchability. The authors were trying to test their hypothesis by determining whether there was an interactive effect of season and host species on mosquito fitness. This is an interesting hypothesis; if it had been supported, it would provide support for a new mechanism driving host switching. While the authors did report an interactive impact of seasonality and host species, the directionality of the effect was the opposite from that hypothesized. The authors have done a very good job of addressing many of the reviewer concerns, with several exception that continue to cause concern about the conclusions of the study. 

      Strengths:

      (1) Using a combination of laboratory feedings and incubators to simulate seasonal environmental conditions is a good, controlled way to assess the potentially interactive impact of host species and seasonality on the fitness of Culex quinquefasciatus in the lab.

      (2) The driving hypothesis is an interesting and creative way to think about a potential driver of host switching observed in the field. 

      (3) The manuscript has become a lot clearer and easier to read with the revisions - thank you to the authors for working hard to make many of the suggested changes. 

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors have decided not to follow the suggestion of conducting experimental replicates of the study. This is understandable given the significant investment of resources and time necessary, however, it leaves the study lacking support. Experimental replication is an important feature of a strong study and helps to provide confidence that the observed patterns are real and replicable. Without replication, I continue to lack confidence in the conclusions of the study. 

      We included replicates as suggested.  

      (2) The authors have included some additional discussion about the counterintuitive nature of their results, but the paragraph discussing this in the discussion was confusing. I believe that this should be revised. This is a key point of the paper and needs to be clear to the reader.

      Revised as suggested. 

      (3) There should be more discussion of the host switching observed in the two studies conducted in Argentina referenced by the authors. Since host switching is the foundation for the hypothesis tested in this paper, it is important to fully explain what is currently known in Argentina. 

      Accepted as suggested.

      (4) In some cases, the explanations of referenced papers are not entirely accurate. For example, when referencing Erram et al 2022, I think the authors misrepresented the paper's discussion regarding pre-diuresis- Erram et al. are suggesting that pre-diuresis might be the mechanism by which C. furens compensates for the lower nutritional value of avian blood, leading to no significant difference between avian/mammal blood on fecundity/fertility (rather than leading to higher fecundity on birds, as stated in this manuscript). The study performed by Erram et al. also didn't prove this phenomenon, they just suggest it as a possible mechanism to explain their results, so that should be made clear when referencing the paper. 

      Changed as suggested.

      (5) In some cases, the conclusions continue to be too strongly worded for the evidence available. For example, lines 322-324: I don't think the data is sufficient to conclude that a different physiological state is induced, nor that they are required to feed on a blood source that results in higher fitness. 

      Redaction was modified as suggested to tight our discussion with results.

      (6) There is limited mention of the caveat that this experiment performed with simulated seasonality that does not perfectly replicate seasonality in the field. I think this caveat should be discussed in the discussion (e.g. that humidity is held constant).

      This topic is now included in the discussion as suggested. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      59-60: These terms should end with -phagic instead of -philic. These papers study blood feeding patterns, not preference. I understand that the Janssen papers calls it "mammalophilic" in their title, but this was an incorrect use of the term in their paper. There are some review papers that explain the difference in this terminology if it's helpful.

      Accepted as suggested. 

      73: edit to "in" feeding behavior 

      Accepted as suggested.

      77-78: Given that the premise of your study is based on the phenomenon of host switching, I suggest that you expand your discussion of these two papers. What did they observe? Which hosts did they switch from / to and how dramatic was the shift?

      Accepted as suggested. 

      79: replace acknowledged with experienced 

      Accepted as suggested.

      79-80: the way that this is written is misleading. It suggests that Spinsanti showed that seasonal variation in SLEV could be attributed to a host shift, which isn't true. This citation should come before the comma and then you should use more cautious language in the second half. E.g which MIGHT be possible to attribute to .... 

      Accepted as suggested.

      80-82: this is not convincing. Even if the Robin isn't in Argentina, Argentina does have migrating birds, so couldn't this be the case for other species of birds? Do any of the birds observed in previous blood meal analyses in Argentina migrate? If so, couldn't this hypothesis indeed play a role? 

      A paragraph about this topic was added to the discussion as suggested.

      90: hypotheses for what? The fall peak in cases? Or host switching? 

      Changed to be clearer.

      98: where was this mentioned before? I think "as mentioned before" can be removed. 

      Accepted as suggested.

      101: edit to "whether an interaction effect exists" 

      Accepted as suggested.

      104: edit to "We hypothesize that..." 

      Accepted as suggested.

      106: reported host USE changes, not host PREFERENCE changes, right? 

      All the terminology was change to host pattern and not preference to avoid confusion.

      200: Briefly reading Carsey and Harden, it looks like the methodology was developed for social science. Is there anything you can cite to show this applied to other types of data? If not, I think this requires more explanation in your MS. 

      This was removed as replicates were included.

      237-239: I think it is best not to make a definitive statement about greater/higher if it isn't statistically significant; I suggest modifying the sentences to state that the differences you are listing were not significantly different up front rather than at the end, otherwise if people aren't reading carefully, they may get the wrong impression. 

      Accepted as suggested.

      245: you only use the term MS-I once before and I forgot what it meant since it wasn't repeated, so I had to search back through with command-F. I suggest writing this out rather than using the acronym. 

      Accepted as suggested.

      249: edit to: "an interaction exists between the effect of..." 

      Accepted as suggested.

      253-254: greater compared to what? 

      Change for clearness. 258-260: edit for grammar 

      Accepted as suggested.

      260-262: edit for grammar; e.g. "However, this assumption lacks solid evidence; there is a scarcity of studies regarding nutritional quality of avian blood and its impact on mosquito fitness." 

      Accepted as suggested.

      263: edit: blood is nutritionally... 

      Accepted as suggested.

      264-267: This doesn't sound like an accurate interpretation of what the paper suggests regarding pre-diuresis in their discussion - they are suggesting that pre-diuresis might be the mechanism by which C. furens compensates for the lower nutritional value of avian blood, leading to no significant difference between avian/mammal blood on fecundity/fertility. They also don't show this, they just suggest it as a possible mechanism to explain their results. 

      This topic was removed given the restructuring of discussion.

      253-269: You should tie this paragraph back to your results to explicitly compare/contrast your findings with the previous literature. 

      Accepted as suggested.

      270-282: This paragraph would be a good place to explain the caveat of working in the laboratory - for example, humidity was the same across the two seasons which I'm guessing isn't the case in the field in Argentina. You can discuss what aspects of laboratory season simulation do not accurately replicate field conditions and how this can impact your findings. You said in your response to the reviewers that you weren't interested in measuring other variables (which is fair, and not expected!), but the beauty of the discussion section is to be able to think about how your experimental design might impact your results - one possibility is that your season simulation may not have produced the results produced by true seasonal shifts. 

      Accepted as suggested.

      279-281: You say your experiment was conducted within the optimal range, which would suggest that both summer and autumn were within that range, but then you only talk about summer as optimal in the following sentence. 

      Changed for clearness.

      281-282: You should clarify this sentence - state what the interaction has an effect on. 

      Accepted as suggested.

      283-291: I appreciate that your discussion now acknowledges the small sample size and the questions that remain unanswered due to the results being opposite to that of the hypothesis, but this paragraph lacks some details and in places doesn't make sense. 

      I think you need to emphasize which groups had small sample size and which conclusions that might impact. I also think you need to explain why the sample size was substantially smaller for some groups (e.g. did they refuse to feed on the mouse in the autumn?). I appreciate that sample sizes are hard to keep high across many groups and two gonotrophic periods, but unfortunately, that is why fitness experiments are so hard to do and by their nature, take a long time. I understand that other papers have even lower sample size, but I was not asked to review those papers and would have had the same critique of them. I don't believe that creating simulated data via a Monte Carlo approach can make up for generating real data. As I understand it from your explanation, you are parametrizing the Monte Carlo simulations with your original data, which was small to begin with for autumn mouse. Using this simulation doesn't seem like a satisfactory replacement for an experimental replicate in my opinion. I maintain that at least a second replicate is necessary to see whether the patterns that you have observed hold. 

      The performing of a power analysis and addition of more replicates tried to solve the issue of sample size. More about this critic is added in the discussion. The simulation approach was totally removed.

      Regarding the directionality of the interaction effect, I think this warrants more discussion. Lines 287-291 don't make sense to me. You suggest that feeding on birds in the autumn may confer a reproductive advantage when conditions are more challenging. But then why wouldn't they preferentially feed on birds in the autumn, rather than mammals? I suggest rewriting this paragraph to make it clearer. 

      Accepted as suggested.

      297: earlier mentioned treatments? Do you mean compared to the first gonotrophic cycle? This isn't clear. 

      Changed for clearness.

      302-303: Did you clarify whether you are allowed to reference unpublished data in eLife? 

      This was removed to follow the guidelines of eLife.

      316-317: "it becomes apparent" sounds awkward, I suggest rewording and also explaining how this conclusion was made. 

      Accepted as suggested.

      322-324: I think that this statement is too strongly worded. I don't think your data is sufficient to conclude that a different physiological state is induced, nor that they are required to feed on a blood source that results in higher fitness. Please modify this and make your conclusions more cautious and closely linked to what you actually demonstrated. 

      Accepted as suggested.

      325: change will perform to would have 

      Accepted as suggested.

      326: add to the sentence: "and vice versa in the summer" 

      Accepted as suggested.

      330: possible explanations, not explaining scenarios. 

      Accepted as suggested.

      517: I think you should repeat the abbreviation definitions in the caption to make it easier for readers, otherwise they have to flip back and forth which can be difficult depending on formatting.

      Accepted as suggested. 

      In general, I think that your captions need more information. I think the best captions explain the figure relatively thoroughly such that the reader can look at the figure and caption and understand without reading the paper in depth. (e.g. the statistical test used).

      Data availability: The eLife author instructions do say that data must be made available, so there should be a statement on data availability in your MS. I also suggest you make the code available.

      Accepted as suggested.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      BMP signaling is, arguably, best known for its role in the dorsoventral patterning, but not in nematodes, where it regulates body size. In their paper, Vora et al. analyze ChIP-Seq and RNA-Seq data to identify direct transcriptional targets of SMA-3 (Smad) and SMA-9 (Schnurri) and understand the respective roles of SMA-3 and SMA-9 in the nematode model Caenorhabditis elegans. The authors use publicly available SMA-3 and SMA-9 ChIP-Seq data, own RNA-Seq data from SMA-3 and SMA-9 mutants, and bioinformatic analyses to identify the genes directly controlled by these two transcription factors (TFs) and find approximately 350 such targets for each. They show that all SMA-3-controlled targets are positively controlled by SMA-3 binding, while SMA-9-controlled targets can be either up or downregulated by SMA-9. 129 direct targets were shared by SMA-3 and SMA-9, and, curiously, the expression of 15 of them was activated by SMA-3 but repressed by SMA-9. Since genes responsible for cuticle collagen production were eminent among the SMA-3 targets, the authors focused on trying to understand the body size defect known to be elicited by the modulation of BMP signaling. Vora et al. provide compelling evidence that this defect is likely to be due to problems with the BMP signaling-dependent collagen secretion necessary for cuticle formation.

      We thank the reviewer for this supportive summary. We would like to clarify the status of the publicly available ChIP-seq data. We generated the GFP tagged SMA-3 and SMA‑9 strains and submitted them to be entered into the queue for ChIP-seq processing by the modENCODE (later modERN) consortium. Thus, the publicly available SMA-3 and SMA-9 ChIP-seq datasets used here were derived from our efforts.  Due to the nature of the consortium’s funding, the data were required to be released publicly upon completion. Nevertheless, our current manuscript provides the first comprehensive analysis of these datasets. We have updated the text to clarify this point.

      Strengths:

      Vora et al. provide a valuable analysis of ChIP-Seq and RNA-Seq datasets, which will be very useful for the community. They also shed light on the mechanism of the BMP-dependent body size control by identifying SMA-3 target genes regulating cuticle collagen synthesis and by showing that downregulation of these genes affects body size in C. elegans.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Although the analysis of the SMA-3 and SMA-9 ChIP-Seq and RNA-Seq data is extremely useful, the goal "to untangle the roles of Smad and Schnurri transcription factors in the developing C. elegans larva", has not been reached. While the role of SMA-3 as a transcriptional activator appears to be quite straightforward, the function of SMA-9 in the BMP signaling remains obscure. The authors write that in SMA-9 mutants, body size is affected, but they do not show any data on the mechanism of this effect.

      We thank the reviewer for directing our attention to the lack of clarity about SMA-9’s function. We have revised the text to highlight what this study and others demonstrate about SMA-9’s role in body size. Simply stated, SMA-9 is needed together with SMA-3 to promote the expression of genes involved in one-carbon metabolism, collagens, and chaperones, all of which are required for body size. SMA-3 has additional, SMA-9-independent transcriptional targets, including chaperones and ER secretion factors, that also contribute to body size. Finally, SMA-9 regulates additional targets independent of SMA-3 that likely have a minimal role in body size. We have adjusted Figure 5 with new graphs of the original data to make these points more clear.

      (2) The authors clearly show that both TFs can bind independently of each other, however, by using distances between SMA-3 and SMA-9 ChIP peaks, they claim that when the peaks are close these two TFs act as complexes. In the absence of proof that SMA-3 and SMA-9 physically interact (e.g. that they co-immunoprecipitate - as they do in Drosophila), this is an unfounded claim, which should either be experimentally substantiated or toned down.

      We acknowledge that we have not demonstrated a physical interaction between SMA-3 and SMA-9 through a co-immunoprecipitation, and we have indicated in the text that a formal biochemical demonstration would be required to make this point. Moreover, we toned down the text by stating that our results suggest that either SMA-3 and SMA-9 frequently bind as either subunits in a complex or in close vicinity to each other along the DNA. As the reviewer has indicated, a physical interaction between Smads and Schnurris has been amply demonstrated in other systems. A limitation in these previous studies is that only a small number of target genes were analyzed. Our goal in this study was to determine how widespread this interaction is on a genomic scale. Our analyses demonstrate for the first time that a Schnurri transcription factor has significant numbers of both Smad-dependent and Smad-independent target genes. We have revised the text to clarify this point.

      (3) The second part of the paper (the collagen story) is very loosely connected to the first part. dpy-11 encodes an enzyme important for cuticle development, and it is a differentially expressed direct target of SMA-3. dpy-11 can be bound by SMA-9, but it is not affected by this binding according to RNA-Seq. Thus, technically, this part of the paper does not require any information about SMA-9. However, this can likely be improved by addressing the function of the 15 genes, with the opposing mode of regulation by SMA-3 and SMA-9.

      We appreciate this suggestion and have clarified in the text how SMA-9 contributes to collagen organization and body size regulation.

      (4) The Discussion does not add much to the paper - it simply repeats the results in a more streamlined fashion.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have added more context to the Discussion.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In the present study, Vora et al. elucidated the transcription factors downstream of the BMP pathway components Smad and Schnurri in C. elegans and their effects on body size. Using a combination of a broad range of techniques, they compiled a comprehensive list of genome-wide downstream targets of the Smads SMA-3 and SMA-9. They found that both proteins have an overlapping spectrum of transcriptional target sites they control, but also unique ones. Thereby, they also identified genes involved in one-carbon metabolism or the endoplasmic reticulum (ER) secretory pathway. In an elaborate effort, the authors set out to characterize the effects of numerous of these targets on the regulation of body size in vivo as the BMP pathway is involved in this process. Using the reporter ROL-6::wrmScarlet, they further revealed that not only collagen production, as previously shown, but also collagen secretion into the cuticle is controlled by SMA-3 and SMA-9. The data presented by Vora et al. provide in-depth insight into the means by which the BMP pathway regulates body size, thus offering a whole new set of downstream mechanisms that are potentially interesting to a broad field of researchers.

      The paper is mostly well-researched, and the conclusions are comprehensive and supported by the data presented. However, certain aspects need clarification and potentially extended data.

      (1) The BMP pathway is active during development and growth. Thus, it is logical that the data shown in the study by Vora et al. is based on L2 worms. However, it raises the question of if and how the pattern of transcriptional targets of SMA-3 and SMA-9 changes with age or in the male tail, where the BMP pathway also has been shown to play a role. Is there any data to shed light on this matter or are there any speculations or hypotheses?

      We agree that these are intriguing questions, and we are interested in the roles of transcriptional targets at other developmental stages and in other physiological functions, but these analyses are beyond the scope of the current study.

      (2) As it was shown that SMA-3 and SMA-9 potentially act in a complex to regulate the transcription of several genes, it would be interesting to know whether the two interact with each other or if the cooperation is more indirect.

      A physical interaction between Smads and Schnurri has been amply demonstrated in other systems. Our goal in this study was not to validate this physical interaction, but to analyze functional interactions on a genome-wide scale.

      (3) It would help the understanding of the data even more if the authors could specifically state if there were collagens among the genes regulated by SMA-3 and SMA-9 and which.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. col-94 and col-153 were identified as direct targets of both SMA-3 and SMA-9. We noted this in the Discussion.

      (4) The data on the role of SMA-3 and SMA-9 in the regulation of the secretion of collagens from the hypodermis is highly intriguing. The authors use ROL-6 as a reporter for the secretion of collagens. Is ROL-6 a target of SMA-9 or SMA-3? Even if this is not the case, the data would gain even more strength if a comparable quantification of the cuticular levels of ROL-6 were shown in Figure 6, and potentially a ratio of cuticular versus hypodermal levels. By that, the levels of secretion versus production can be better appreciated.

      We previously showed that rol-6 mRNA levels are reduced in dbl-1 mutants at L2, but RNA-seq analysis did not find enough of a statistically significant change in rol-6 to qualify it as a transcriptional target and total levels of protein are also not significantly reduced in mutants. We added this information in the text.

      (5) It is known that the BMP pathway controls several processes besides body size. The discussion would benefit from a broader overview of how the identified genes could contribute to body size. The focus of the study is on collagen production and secretion, but it would be interesting to have some insights into whether and how other identified proteins could play a role or whether they are likely to not be involved here (such as the ones normally associated with lipid metabolism, etc.).

      We have added more information to the Discussion.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Figure 1 - Figure 3: The authors might want to think about condensing this into two figures.

      To avoid confusion with the different workflows, we prefer to keep these as three separate figures.

      Figure 1a-b: Measurement unit missing on X.

      We added the unit “bps” to these graphs.

      Line 244-246: The authors should stress in the Results that they analyzed publicly available ChIP-Seq data, which was not generated by them, - not just by providing a reference to Kudron et al., 2018. As far as I understood, ChIP was performed with an anti-GFP antibody. Please mention this, and specify the information about the vendor and the catalog number in the Methods.

      We would like to clarify the status of the publicly available ChIP-seq data. We generated the GFP tagged SMA-3 and SMA‑9 strains and submitted them to be entered into the queue for ChIP-seq processing by the modENCODE (later modERN) consortium. Thus, the publicly available SMA-3 and SMA-9 ChIP-seq datasets used here were derived from our efforts.  Due to the nature of the consortium’s funding, the data were required to be released publicly upon completion. Nevertheless, our current manuscript provides the first comprehensive analysis of these datasets. We have clarified these issues in the text.  We have also added information regarding the anti-GFP antibody to the Methods.

      Line 267-270: The authors should either provide experimental evidence that SMA-3 and SMA-9 form complexes or write something like "significant overlap between SMA-3 and SMA-9 peaks may indicate complex formation between these two transcription factors as shown in Drosophila" - but in the absence of proof, this must be a point for the Discussion, not for the Results. Moreover, similar behavior of fat-6 (overlapping ChIP peaks) and nhr-114 (non-overlapping ChIP peaks) in SMA-3 and SMA-9 mutants may be interpreted as a circumstantial argument against SMA-3/SMA-9 complex formation (see Lines 342-348). Importantly, since ChIP-Seq data are available for a wide array of C. elegans TFs, it would be very useful to have an estimate of whether SMA-3/SMA-9 peak overlap is significantly higher than the peak overlap between SMA-3 and several other TFs expressed at the same L2 stage.

      We have clarified our goals regarding SMA-3 and SMA-9 interactions and softened our conclusions by indicating in the text that a formal biochemical demonstration would be required to demonstrate a physical interaction. Moreover, we toned down the text by stating that our results suggest that either SMA-3 and SMA-9 frequently bind as either subunits in a complex or in close vicinity to each other along the DNA. We have added an analysis of HOT sites to address overlap of binding with other transcription factors. We disagree with the interpretation that transcription factors with non-overlapping sites cannot act together to regulate gene expression; however, nhr-114 also has an overlapping SMA-3 and SMA-9 site, so this point becomes less relevant. We have clarified the categorization of nhr-114 in the text.

      Lines 272-292: The authors do not comment on the seemingly quite small overlap between the RNA-Seq and the ChIP-Seq dataset, but I think they should. They have 3205 SMA-3 ChIP peaks and 1867 SMA-3 DEGs, but the amount of directly regulated targets is 367. It is important that the authors provide information on the number of genes to which their peaks have been assigned. Clearly, this will not be one gene per peak, but if it were, this would mean that just 11.5% of bound targets are really affected by the binding. The same number would be 4.7% for the SMA-9 peaks.

      We have added a discussion of the discrepancy between binding sites and DEGs. The high number of additional sites classified as non-functional could represent the detection of weak affinity targets that do not have an actual biological purpose. Alternatively, these sites could have an additional role in DBL-1 signaling besides transcriptional regulation of nearby genes, or they could be regulating the expression of target genes at a far enough distance to not be detected by our BETA analysis as per the constraints chosen for the analysis. The difference between total binding sites and those associated with changes in gene expression underscores the importance of combining RNA-seq with ChIP-seq to identify the most biologically relevant targets. And as the reviewer indicated, more than one gene can be assigned to a single neighboring peak.

      Lines 294-323: I feel like there is a terminology problem, which makes reading very difficult. The authors use "direct targets" as bound genes with significant expression change, but then run into a problem when the gene is bound by SMA-9 and SMA-3, but significant expression change is only associated with one of the two factors. I am not sure this is consistent with the idea of the SMA3/SMA9 complex. Also, different modalities of the SMA3 and SMA9 effect in 15 cases can be explained by co-factors. Reading would be also simplified if the order of the panels in Figure 3 were different. Currently, the authors start their explanation by referring to the shared SMA-3/SMA-9 targets (Figures 3c-d), and only later come to Figure 3b. In general, the authors should start with a clear explanation of what is on the figure (currently starting on Line 313), otherwise, it is unclear why, if the authors only discuss common targets, it is not just 114+15=129 targets, but more.

      We have re-ordered the columns in Figure 3 to match the order discussed in the text. We also incorporated more precise language about regulation by SMA-3 and/or SMA-9 in the text.

      Lines 325-355: The chapter has a rather unfortunate name "Mechanisms of integration of SMA-3 and SMA-9 function", although the authors do not provide any mechanism. Using 3 target genes, they show that if the regulatory modality of SMA-3 and SMA-9 is the same (2 examples), there is no difference in the expression of the targets, but if the modalities are opposing (1 example), SMA-9 repressive action is epistatic to the SMA-3 activating action. Can this be generalized? The authors should test all their 15 targets with opposite regulations. Moreover, it seems obvious to ask whether the intermediate phenotype of the double-mutants can be attributed to the action of these 15 genes activated by SMA-3 and repressed by SMA-9. I would suggest testing this by RNAi. I would also suggest renaming the chapter to something better reflecting its content.

      We have removed the word “mechanism” from the title of this section. We also performed additional RT-PCR experiments on another 5 targets with opposing directions of regulation. The results from these genes are consistent with the result from C54E4.5, demonstrating that the epistasis of sma-9 is generalizable.

      Figure 4b: Why was a two-way ANOVA performed here? With the small number of measurements, I would consider using a non-parametric test.

      These data are parametric and the distribution of the data is normal, so we chose to use a parametric test (ANOVA).

      Lines 354-355. The authors offer two suggestions for the mechanism of the epistatic action of SMA-9 on SMA-3 in the case of C54E4.5, but this is something for the Discussion. If they want to keep it in the Results they should address this experimentally by performing SMA-3 ChIP-seq in the SMA-9 mutants and SMA-9 ChIP-Seq in the SMA-3 mutants.

      We moved these models to the discussion as suggested.

      Lines 365-367: "We expect that clusters of genes involved in fatty acid metabolism and innate immunity mediate the physiological functions of BMP signaling in fat storage and pathogen resistance, respectively." - This is pretty confusing since the Authors claim in the previous sentence that regulation of immunity by SMA-9 is TGF-beta independent.

      Co-regulation of immunity by BMP signaling and SMA-9 is already known. The novel insight is that SMA-9 may have an additional independent role in immunity. We have clarified the language to address this confusion.

      Lines 377, and 380: Please explain in non-C. elegans-specific terminology, what rrf-3 and LON-2 are (e.g. write "glypican LON-2" instead of just "LON-2") and add relevant references.

      We added information on the proteins encoded by these genes.

      Lines 382-384: I am not sure what the Authors mean here by "more limiting".

      We substituted the phrase “might have a more prominent requirement in mediating the exaggerated growth defect of a lon-2 mutant”.

      Lines 388-392: I found this very confusing. What were these 36 genes? Were these direct targets of SMA-3, SMA-9, or both? Top 36 targets? 36 targets for which mutants are available?

      The new Figure 5 clarifies whether target genes are SMA-3-exclusive, SMA-9-exclusive, or co-regulated. The text was also updated for clarity.

      Line 397: This is the first time the authors mention dpy-11 but they do not say what it is until later, and they do not say whether it is a target of SMA3/SMA9. Checking Figure 3, I found that it is among the 238 genes bound by both but upregulated only by SMA3. The authors need to explicitly state this - from this point on, they have a section for which SMA-9 appears to be irrelevant.

      We added the molecular function of dpy-11 at its first mention. Furthermore, we included the hypothesis that SMA-3 may regulate collagen secretion independently of SMA-9. Our subsequent results with sma-9 mutants disprove this hypothesis.

      Line 402: Is ROL-6 a SMA-3/SMA-9 target or just a marker gene?

      We previously showed that rol-6 mRNA levels are reduced in dbl-1 mutants at L2, but RNA-seq analysis did not find enough of a statistically significant change in rol-6 to qualify it as a transcriptional target and total levels of protein are also not significantly reduced in mutants. We added this information in the text.

      Line 421: I am not sure what "more skeletonized" means.

      Replaced with “thinner and skeletonized”

      Figure 2b and 2d legends: "Non-target genes nevertheless showing differential expression are indicated with green squares." (l. 581-582 and again l. 588-589) I think should be "Non-direct target genes...".

      Changed to “non-direct target genes”

      Figure 7 legend: Please indicate the scale bar size in the legend.

      Indicated the scale bar size in the legend.

      Figure 7: The ER marker is referred to as "ssGFP::KDEL" (in the image and Line 700), however in the text it is called "KDEL::oxGFP" (Line 419). Please use consistent naming.

      We fixed the inconsistent naming.

      All the experiment suggestions made are optional and can, in principle, be ignored if the authors tone down their claims (for example, the SMA-3/SMA-9 complex formation).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) As a control: Have the authors found the known regulated genes among the differentially regulated ones?

      Previously known target genes such as fat-6 and zip-10 were identified here. We have added this information in the text.

      (2) How many repetitions were performed in Figure 4b? I am wondering as the deviation for C54E4.5 is quite large and that makes me worry that the significant differences stated are not robust.

      There were two biologically independent collections from which three cDNA syntheses were analyzed using two technical replicates per point.

      (3) Lines 333-336: Can you really make this claim that the antagonistic effects seen in the regulation of body size can be correlated with some targets being regulated in the opposite direction? I would assume that the situation is far more complex as SMADs also regulate other processes.

      We agree with the reviewer that multiple models could explain this antagonism, and we have added distinct alternatives in the text.

      (4) Lines 367-369: Add the respective reference please.

      We have added the relevant references.

    1. Author response:

      We are both honored and humbled by the high praise our work received from all three reviewers. Below, we address the common comments made by the reviewers:

      (1) Value and Impact of the Resource: We are grateful for the recognition of our dataset as a valuable and high-quality resource. Our primary goal was to generate a comprehensive dataset on protein abundance and phosphorylation dynamics during Xenopus oocyte maturation. We are pleased that this work has been seen as a solid foundation for future studies in Xenopus research and beyond, with broader implications for oocyte and cell cycle biology.

      (2) Focus on Functional Validation and Contextualization with Prior Studies: The manuscript was submitted as a Tools and Resources article, a format that emphasizes the creation and presentation of datasets, tools, and methodological advances to facilitate future discoveries. In alignment with this format, we ensured that the information is accessible and deployable for the broader scientific community. While we did not include functional validation of specific pathways, the dataset provides a robust framework for generating numerous testable hypotheses. We plan to pursue some of these follow-up studies in our labs and encourage the community to explore these further.

      (3) Contextualization with Prior Studies: We appreciate the recognition of our efforts to integrate our findings with the existing body of literature. In conclusion, we would like to thank the reviewers for their evaluation and thoughtful suggestions. We look forward to seeing how this dataset contributes to future discoveries in the field.

    1. Author response:

      eLife Assessment:

      In this important study, the authors combine innovative experimental approaches, including direct compressibility measurements and traction force analyses, with theoretical modeling to propose that wild-type cells exert compressive forces on softer HRasV12-transformed cells, influencing competition outcomes. The data generally provide solid evidence that transformed epithelial cells exhibit higher compressibility than wild-type cells, a property linked to their compaction during mechanical cell competition. However, the study would benefit from further characterization of how compression affects the behavior of HRasV12 cells and clearer causal links between compressibility and competition outcomes.

      We thank the reviewers and the editor for their thoughtful and encouraging feedback on our study and for appreciating the innovation in our experimental and theoretical approaches. We acknowledge the importance of further clarifying the mechanistic links between the compressibility of HRas<sup>V12</sup>-transformed cells, their compaction, and the outcomes of mechanical cell competition. In the revised manuscript, we will include additional experiments and analyses to assess how compression influences the cellular behavior and fate of HRas<sup>V12</sup>-transformed cells during competition. In addition, to strengthen the connection between collective compressibility and competition outcomes, we will integrate quantitative analyses of cell dynamics and additional modeling to explicitly correlate the mechanical properties with the spatial and temporal aspects of cell elimination. These additions will address the reviewer’s concerns comprehensively, further enriching the mechanistic understanding presented in the manuscript.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this article, Gupta and colleagues explore the parameters that could promote the elimination of active Ras cells when surrounded by WT cells. The elimination of active Ras cells by surrounding WT cells was previously described extensively and associated with a process named cell competition, a context dependant elimination of cells. Several mechanisms have been associated with competition, including more recently elimination processes based on mechanical stress. This was explored theoretically and experimentally and was either associated with differential growth and sensitivity to pressure and/or differences in homeostatic density/pressure. This was extensively validated for the case of Scribble mutant cells which are eliminated by WT MDCK cells due to their higher homeostatic density. However, there has been so far very little systematic characterisation of the mechanical parameters and properties of these different cell types and how this could contribute to mechanical competition.

      Here, the authors used the context of active Ras cells in MDCK cells (with some observations in vivo in mice gut which are a bit more anecdotal) to explore the parameters causal to Ras cell elimination. Using for the first time traction force microscopy, stress microscopy combined with Bayesian inference, they first show that clusters of active Ras cells experience higher pressure compared to WT. Interestingly, this occurs in absence of differences in growth rate, and while Ras cells seems to have lower homeostatic density, in contractions with the previous models associated with mechanical cell competition. Using a self-propelled Voronoi model, they explored more systematically the conditions that will promote the compression of transformed cells, showing globally that higher Area compressibility and/or lower junctional tension are associated with higher compressibility. Using then an original and novel experimental method to measure bulk compressibility of cell populations, they confirmed that active Ras cells are globally twice more compressible than WT cells. This compressibility correlates with a disruption of adherens junctions. Accordingly, the higher pressure near transformed Ras cells can be completely rescued by increasing cell-cell adhesion through E-cad overexpression, which also reduces the compressibility of the transformed cells. Altogether, these results go along the lines of a previous theoretical work (Gradeci et al. eLife 2021) which was suggesting that reduced stiffness/higher compressibility was essential to promote loser cell elimination. Here, the authors provide for the first time a very convincing experimental measurement and validation of this prediction. Moreover, their modelling approach goes far beyond what was performed before in terms of exploration of conditions promoting compressibility, and their experimental data point at alternative mechanisms that may contribute to mechanical competition.

      Strengths:

      - Original methodologies to perform systematic characterisation of mechanical properties of Ras cells during cell competition, which include a novel method to measure bulk compressibility.<br /> - A very extensive theoretical exploration of the parameters promoting cell compaction in the context of competition.

      We thank the reviewer for their detailed and thoughtful assessment of our study and for recognizing the originality of our methodologies, including the novel bulk compressibility measurement technique and the extensive theoretical exploration of parameters influencing mechanical competition. We are pleased that the reviewer finds our experimental validation and modeling approach convincing and acknowledges the relevance of our findings in advancing the understanding of mechanical cell competition. We will carefully address all the points raised to further clarify and strengthen the manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      - Most of the theoretical focus is centred on the bulk compressibility, but so far does not really explain the final fate of the transformed cells. Classic cell competition scenario (including the one involving active Ras cells) lead to the elimination of one cell population either by cell extrusion/cell death or global delamination. This aspect is absolutely not explored in this article, experimentally or theoretically, and as such it is difficult to connect all the observables with the final outcome of cell competition. For instance, higher compressibility may not lead to loser status if the cells can withstand high density without extruding compared to the WT cells (and could even completely invert the final outcome of the competition). Down the line, and as suggested in most of the previous models/experiments, the relationship between pressure/density and extrusion/death will be the key factor that determine the final outcome of competition. However, there is absolutely no characterisation of cell death/cell extrusion in the article so far.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this important point. We agree that understanding the relationship between pressure, density, and the final outcomes of cell competition, such as extrusion and cell death, is crucial to connecting the mechanical properties to competition outcomes. While extrusion and cell death have been extensively characterized in previous works (e.g., https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-27896-z; https://www.nature.com/articles/ncb1853), we nevertheless recognize the need to address this aspect more explicitly in our study. To this end, we have indeed performed experiments to characterize cell extrusion and cell death under varying conditions of pressure and density. We will incorporate these data into the revised manuscript. These additions will provide a more comprehensive understanding of how mechanical imbalance drives cell competition and determine the final fate of transformed cells.

      - While the compressibility measurement are very original and interesting, this bulk measurement could be explained by very different cellular processes, from modulation of cell shape, to cell extrusion and tissue multilayering (which by the way was already observed for active Ras cells, see for instance https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34644109/). This could change a lot the interpretation of this measurement and to which extend it can explain the compression observed in mixed culture. This compressibility measurement could be much more informative if coupled with an estimation of the change of cell aspect ratio and the rough evaluation of the contribution of cell shape changes versus alternative mechanisms.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important concern. In our model system and within the experimental timescale of our studies involving gel compression microscopy (GCM) experiments, we do not observe tissue multilayering and cell extrusion, as these measurements are performed on homogeneous populations (pure wild-type or pure transformed cell monolayer). However, to address the reviewer’s suggestion, we will include measurements of cell aspect ratio as well as images eliminating the possibility of multilayering/extrusion in the revised manuscript. These results will provide additional insights into the plausible contributions of cell shape changes. Furthermore, our newer results indicate that the compressibility differences arise from variations in the intracellular organization (changed in nuclear and cytoskeletal organization) between wild-type and transformed cells. While a detailed molecular characterization of these underlying mechanisms is beyond the scope of the current manuscript, we acknowledge its importance and plan to explore it in a future study. These revisions will clarify and strengthen the interpretation of our findings.

      - So far, there is no clear explanation of why transformed Ras cells get more compacted in the context of mixed culture compared to pure Ras culture. Previously, the compaction of mutant Scribble cells could be explained by the higher homeostatic density of WT cells which impose their prefered higher density to Scribble mutant (see Wagstaff et al. 2016 or Gradeci et al 2021), however that is not the case of the Ras cells (which have even slightly higher density at confluency). If I understood properly, the Voronoid model assumes some directional movement of WT cell toward transformed which will actively compact the Ras cells through self-propelled forces (see supplementary methods), but this is never clearly discussed/described in the results section, while potentially being one essential ingredient for observing compaction of transformed cells. In fact, this was already described experimentally in the case of Scribble competition and associated with chemoattractant secretion from the mutant cells promoting directed migration of the WT (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33357449/). It would be essential to show what happens in absence of directional propelled movement in the model and validate experimentally whether there is indeed directional movement of the WT toward the transformed cells. Without this, the current data does not really explain the competition process.

      We introduced directional movement of wild-type cells towards neighbouring transformed cells (and a form of active force to be exerted by them), motivated by the tissue compressibility measurements from the Gel Compression Microscopy experiments (Fig. 4E-L). This allowed us to devise an equivalent method of measuring the material response to isotropic compression within the SPV model framework. While the role of directional propelled movement is an area of ongoing investigation and has not been explored extensively within the current study, we emphasize that even without directional propulsion in the model, our results demonstrate compressive stress or elevated pressure, and increased compaction within the transformed population under suitable conditions reported in this work (when k<1), exhibiting a greater tissue-level compressibility in the transformed cells compared to WT cells (Figs. 4C-D), thereby laying the ground for competition. To clarify these concerns, we will provide additional results as well as detailed discussions on the effect of cell movements in compression.

      - Some of the data lack a bit of information on statistic, especially for all the stress microscopy and traction forces where we do no really know how representative at the stress patterns (how many experiment, are they average of several movies ? integrated on which temporal window ?)

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting the need for additional details regarding the statistical representation of our stress microscopy and traction force data. We will address these concerns in the revised manuscript by providing clear descriptions of the number of experiments, the averaging methodology, and the temporal windows used for analysis. Currently, Figs. 2A and 2C represent data from single time points, as the traction and stress landscapes evolve dynamically as transformed cells begin extruding (as shown in Supplementary movie 1). In contrast, Fig. 2H represents data collected from several samples across three independent experiments, all measured at the 3-hour time point following doxycycline induction. This specific time point is critical because it captures the emergence of compressive stresses before extrusion begins, simplifying the analysis and ensuring consistency. We will ensure these details are clearly articulated in the revised text and figure legends.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      The work by Gupta et al. addresses the role of tissue compressibility as a driver of cell competition. The authors use a planar epithelial monolayer system to study cell competition between wild type and transformed epithelial cells expressing HRasV12. They combine imaging and traction force measurements from which the authors propose that wild type cells generate compressive forces on transformed epithelial cells. The authors further present a novel setup to directly measure the compressibility of adherent epithelial tissues. These measurements suggest a higher compressibility of transformed epithelial cells, which is causally linked to a reduction in cell-cell adhesion in transformed cells. The authors support their conclusions by theoretical modelling using a self-Propelled Voronoi model that supports differences in tissue compressibility can lead to compression of the softer tissue type.

      The experimental framework to measure tissue compressibility of adherent epithelial monolayers establishes a novel tool, however additional controls of this measurement appear required. Moreover, the experimental support of this study is mostly based on single representative images and would greatly benefit from additional data and their quantitative analysis to support the authors' conclusions. Specific comments are also listed in the following:

      Major points:

      It is not evident in Fig2A that traction forces increase along the interface between wild type and transformed populations and stresses in Fig2C also seem to be similar at the interface and surrounding cell layer. Only representative examples are provided and a quantification of sigma_m needs to be provided.

      In Figure 1-3 only panel 2G and 2H provide a quantitative analysis, but it is not clear how many regions of interest and clusters of transform cells were quantified.

      We thank the reviewer for their detailed comments and for highlighting the importance of additional quantitative analyses to support our conclusions. We appreciate their recognition of our novel experimental framework to measure tissue compressibility and the overall approach of our study. Regarding Fig. 2A and Fig. 2C, we acknowledge the need for further clarity. While the traction forces and stress patterns may not appear uniformly distinct at the interface in the representative images, these differences are more evident at specific time points before extrusion begins. Please note that the traction and stress landscapes evolve dynamically as transformed cells begin extruding (as shown in Supplementary movie 1). We will include a quantification of σ<sub>m</sub>​ and additional data from multiple experiments to substantiate the observations and address this concern in the revised manuscript. Currently, the data in Fig. 2G and Fig. 2H represent several regions of interest and transformed cell clusters collected from three independent experiments, all analyzed at the 3-hour time point after doxycycline induction. This time point was chosen because it captures the compressive stress emergence without interference from extrusion processes, simplifying the analysis. We will expand these sections with detailed descriptions of the sample sizes and statistical analyses to ensure greater transparency and reproducibility. These revisions will provide a stronger quantitative foundation for our findings and address the reviewer's concerns.

      Several statements appear to be not sufficiently justified and supported by data.<br /> For example the statement on pg 3. line 38 seems to lack supportive data 'This comparison revealed that the thickness of HRasV12-expressing cells was reduced by more than 1.7-fold when they were surrounded by wild type cells. These observations pointed towards a selective, competition-dependent compaction of HRasV12-expressing transformed cells but not control cells, in the intestinal villi of mice.'  Similarly, the statement about a cell area change of 2.7 fold (pg 3 line 47) lacks support by measurements.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the need for more supportive data to justify several statements in the manuscript. Specifically, the observation regarding the reduction in the thickness of HRas<sup>V12</sup>-expressing cells by more than 1.7-fold when surrounded by wild-type cells, and the statement about a 2.7-fold change in cell area, will be supported by detailed measurements. In the revised manuscript, we will include quantitative analyses with additional figures that clearly document these changes. These figures will provide representative images, statistical summaries, and detailed descriptions of the measurements to substantiate these claims. We appreciate the reviewer highlighting these areas and will ensure that all statements are robustly backed by data.

      What is the rationale for setting 𝐾p = 1 in the model assumptions if clear differences in junctional membranes of transformed versus wild type cells occur, including dynamic ruffling? This assumption does not seem to be in line with biological observations.

      While the specific role of K<sub>p</sub> in the differences observed in the junctional membranes of transformed versus WT cells, including dynamical ruffling, is not directly studied in this work, our findings indicate that the lower junctional tension (weaker and less stable cellular junctions) in mutant cells is influenced primarily by competition in the dimensionless cell shape index within the model. This also suggests a larger preferred cell perimeter (P<sub>0</sub>) for mutant cells, corresponding to their softer, unjammed state. Huang et al. (https://doi.org/10.1039/d3sm00327b) have previously argued that a high P<sub>0</sub> may, in some cases, result from elevated cortical tension along cell edges, or reflect weak membrane elasticity, implying a smaller K<sub>p</sub>. While this connection could be an intriguing avenue for future exploration, we emphasize that K<sub>p</sub> is not expected to alter any of the key findings or conclusions reported in this work. We will include any required analysis and corresponding discussions in the revised manuscript.

      The novel approach to measure tissue compressibility is based on pH dependent hydrogels. As the pH responsive hydrogel pillar is placed into a culture medium with different conditions, an important control would be if the insertion of this hydrogel itself would change the pH or conditions of the culture assays and whether this alters tissue compressibility or cell adhesion. The authors could for example insert a hydrogel pillar of a smaller diameter that would not lead to compression or culture cells in a larger ring to assess the influence of the pillar itself.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comment regarding the potential effects of the pH-responsive hydrogel pillar on the culture conditions and tissue compressibility. In our experiments, the expandable hydrogels are kept separate from the cells until the pH of the hydrogel is elevated to 7.4, ensuring that the hydrogel does not impact the culture environment. However, we acknowledge the concern and will include additional controls in the revised manuscript. Specifically, we will insert a hydrogel pillar with a smaller diameter that would not induce compression on culture cells in a larger ring to assess any potential influence of the hydrogel pillar itself. This will help to further validate our experimental setup.

      The authors focus on the study of cell compaction of the transformed cells, but how does this ultimately lead to a competitive benefit of wild type cells? Is a higher rate of extrusion observed and associated with the compaction of transformed cells or is their cell death rate increased? While transformed cells seem to maintain a proliferative advantage it is not clear which consequences of tissue compression ultimately drive cell competition between wild type and transformed cells.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this important point. We agree that understanding how tissue compression leads to a competitive advantage for wild type cells is crucial. While our current study focuses on the mechanical properties of transformed cells leading to the compaction and subsequent extrusion of the transformed cells, we recognize the need to explicitly connect these properties to the final outcomes of cell competition, such as extrusion or cell death. Although extrusion and cell death have been extensively characterized in previous studies (e.g., https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-27896-z; https://www.nature.com/articles/ncb1853), we have indeed performed additional experiments to investigate the relationship between pressure, density, and these processes in our system. In the revised manuscript, we will include these new data, which will help to clarify how mechanical stress, driven by tissue compression, contributes to the competition between wild type and transformed cells and influences their eventual fate.

      The argumentation that softer tissues would be more easily compressed is plausible. However, which mechanism do the authors suggest is generating the actual compressive stress to drive the compaction of transformed cells? They exclude a proliferative advantage of wild type cells, which other mechanisms will generate the compressive forces by wild type cells?

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important question. As rightly pointed out by the reviewer indeed in our model system, we do not observe a proliferative advantage for the wild-type cells, and the compressive forces exerted by the wild-type cells are due to their intrinsic mechanical properties, such as lesser compressibility compared to the transformed cells. This difference in compressibility results in wild-type cells generating compressive stress at the interface with the transformed cells. Regarding the mechanism underlying the increased compressibility of the transformed cells, our newer findings indicate that the differences in compressibility arise from variations in the intracellular organization, specifically changes in nuclear and cytoskeletal organization between wild-type and transformed cells. While a detailed molecular characterization of these mechanisms is beyond the scope of the current manuscript, we acknowledge its significance and plan to investigate it in future work. We will, nevertheless, include a detailed discussion on the mechanism underlying the differential compressibility of wild-type and transformed cells in the revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      The revised manuscript contains new results and additional text. Major revisions:

      (1) Additional simulations and analyses of networks with different biophysical parameters and with identical time constants for E and I neurons (Methods, Supplementary Fig. 5).

      (2) Additional simulations and analyses of networks with modifications of connectivity parameters to further analyze effects of E/I assemblies on manifold geometry (Supplementary Fig. 6).

      (3) Analysis of synaptic current components (Figure 3 D-F; to analyze mechanism of modest amplification in Tuned networks). 

      (4) More detailed explanation of pattern completion analysis (Results).

      (5) Analysis of classification performance of Scaled networks (Supplementary Fig.8).

      (6) Additional analysis (Figure 5D-F) and discussion (particularly section “Computational functions of networks with E/I assemblies”) of functional benefits of continuous representations in networks with E-I assemblies. 

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      Meissner-Bernard et al present a biologically constrained model of telencephalic area of adult zebrafish, a homologous area to the piriform cortex, and argue for the role of precisely balanced memory networks in olfactory processing. 

      This is interesting as it can add to recent evidence on the presence of functional subnetworks in multiple sensory cortices. It is also important in deviating from traditional accounts of memory systems as attractor networks. Evidence for attractor networks has been found in some systems, like in the head direction circuits in the flies. However, the presence of attractor dynamics in other modalities, like sensory systems, and their role in computation has been more contentious. This work contributes to this active line of research in experimental and computational neuroscience by suggesting that, rather than being represented in attractor networks and persistent activity, olfactory memories might be coded by balanced excitation-inhibitory subnetworks. 

      Strengths: 

      The main strength of the work is in: (1) direct link to biological parameters and measurements, (2) good controls and quantification of the results, and (3) comparison across multiple models. 

      (1) The authors have done a good job of gathering the current experimental information to inform a biological-constrained spiking model of the telencephalic area of adult zebrafish. The results are compared to previous experimental measurements to choose the right regimes of operation. 

      (2) Multiple quantification metrics and controls are used to support the main conclusions and to ensure that the key parameters are controlled for - e.g. when comparing across multiple models.  (3) Four specific models (random, scaled I / attractor, and two variant of specific E-I networks - tuned I and tuned E+I) are compared with different metrics, helping to pinpoint which features emerge in which model. 

      Weaknesses: 

      Major problems with the work are: (1) mechanistic explanation of the results in specific E-I networks, (2) parameter exploration, and (3) the functional significance of the specific E-I model. 

      (1) The main problem with the paper is a lack of mechanistic analysis of the models. The models are treated like biological entities and only tested with different assays and metrics to describe their different features (e.g. different geometry of representation in Fig. 4). Given that all the key parameters of the models are known and can be changed (unlike biological networks), it is expected to provide a more analytical account of why specific networks show the reported results. For instance, what is the key mechanism for medium amplification in specific E/I network models (Fig. 3)? How does the specific geometry of representation/manifolds (in Fig. 4) emerge in terms of excitatory-inhibitory interactions, and what are the main mechanisms/parameters? Mechanistic account and analysis of these results are missing in the current version of the paper. 

      We agree that further mechanistic insights would be of interest and addressed this issue at different levels:

      (1) Biophysical parameters: to determine whether network behavior depends on specific choices of biophysical parameters in E and I neurons we equalized biophysical parameters across neuron types. The main observations are unchanged, suggesting that the observed effects depend primarily on network connectivity (see also response to comment [2]).

      (2) Mechanism of modest amplification in E/I assemblies: analyzing the different components of the synaptic currents demonstrate that the modest amplification of activity in Tuned networks results from an “imperfect” balance of recurrent excitation and inhibition within assemblies (see new Figures 3D-F and text p.7). Hence, E/I co-tuning substantially reduces the net amplification in Tuned networks as compared to Scaled networks, thus preventing discrete attractor dynamics and stabilizing network activity, but a modest amplification still occurs, consistent with biological observations.

      (3) Representational geometry: to obtain insights into the network mechanisms underlying effects of E/I assemblies on the geometry of population activity we tested the hypothesis that geometrical changes depend, at least in part, on the modest amplification of activity within E/I assemblies (see Supplementary Figure 6). We changed model parameters to either prevent the modest amplification in Tuned networks (increasing I-to-E connectivity within assemblies) or introduce a modest amplification in subsets of neurons by other mechanisms (concentration-dependent increase in the excitability of pseudo-assembly neurons; Scaled I networks with reduced connectivity within assemblies). Manipulations that introduced a modest, input-dependent amplification in neuronal subsets had geometrical effects similar to those observed in Tuned networks, whereas manipulations that prevented a modest amplification abolished these effects (Supplementary Figure 6). Note however that these manipulations generated different firing rate distributions. These results provide a starting point for more detailed analyses of the relationship between network connectivity and representational geometry (see p.12).

      In summary, our additional analyses indicate that effects of E/I assemblies on representational geometry depend primarily on network connectivity, rather than specific biophysical parameters, and that the resulting modest amplification of activity within assemblies makes an important contribution. Further analyses may reveal more specific relationships between E/I assemblies and representational geometry, but such analyses are beyond the scope of this study.

      (2) The second major issue with the study is a lack of systematic exploration and analysis of the parameter space. Some parameters are biologically constrained, but not all the parameters. For instance, it is not clear what the justification for the choice of synaptic time scales are (with E synaptic time constants being larger than inhibition: tau_syn_i = 10 ms, tau_syn_E = 30 ms). How would the results change if they are varying these - and other unconstrained - parameters? It is important to show how the main results, especially the manifold localisation, would change by doing a systematic exploration of the key parameters and performing some sensitivity analysis. This would also help to see how robust the results are, which parameters are more important and which parameters are less relevant, and to shed light on the key mechanisms.  

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point. We chose a relatively slow time constant for excitatory synapses because experimental data indicate that excitatory synaptic currents in Dp and piriform cortex contain a prominent NMDA component. Nevertheless, to assess whether network behavior depends on specific choices of biophysical parameters in E and I neurons, we have performed additional simulations with equal synaptic time constants and equal biophysical parameters for all neurons. Each neuron also received the same number of inputs from each population (see revised Methods). Results were similar to those observed previously (Supplementary Fig.5 and p.9 of main text). We therefore conclude that the main effects observed in Tuned networks cannot be explained by differences in biophysical parameters between E and I neurons but is primarily a consequence of network connectivity.

      (3) It is not clear what the main functional advantage of the specific E-I network model is compared to random networks. In terms of activity, they show that specific E-I networks amplify the input more than random networks (Fig. 3). But when it comes to classification, the effect seems to be very small (Fig. 5c). Description of different geometry of representation and manifold localization in specific networks compared to random networks is good, but it is more of an illustration of different activity patterns than proving a functional benefit for the network. The reader is still left with the question of what major functional benefits (in terms of computational/biological processing) should be expected from these networks, if they are to be a good model for olfactory processing and learning. 

      One possibility for instance might be that the tasks used here are too easy to reveal the main benefits of the specific models - and more complex tasks would be needed to assess the functional enhancement (e.g. more noisy conditions or more combination of odours). It would be good to show this more clearly - or at least discuss it in relation to computation and function. 

      In the previous manuscript, the analysis of potential computational benefits other than pattern classification was limited and the discussion of this issue was condensed into a single itemized paragraph to avoid excessive speculation. Although a thorough analysis of potential computational benefits exceeds the scope of a single paper, we agree with the reviewer that this issue is of interest and therefore added additional analyses and discussion.

      In the initial manuscript we analyzed pattern classification primarily to investigate whether Tuned networks can support this function at all, given that they do not exhibit discrete attractor states. We found this to be the case, which we consider a first important result.

      Furthermore, we found that precise balance of E/I assemblies can protect networks against catastrophic firing rate instabilities when assemblies are added sequentially, as in continual learning. Results from these simulations are now described and discussed in more detail (see Results p.11 and Discussion p.13).

      In the revised manuscript, we now also examine additional potential benefits of Tuned networks and discuss them in more detail (see new Figure 5D-F and text p.11). One hypothesis is that continuous representations provide a distance metric between a given input and relevant (learned) stimuli. To address this hypothesis, we (1) performed regression analysis and (2) trained support vector machines (SVMs) to predict the concentration of a given odor in a mixture based on population activity. In both cases, Tuned E+I networks outperformed Scaled and _rand n_etworks in predicting the concentration of learned odors across a wide range mixtures (Figure 5D-F).  E/I assemblies therefore support the quantification of learned odors within mixtures or, more generally, assessments of how strongly a (potentially complex) input is related to relevant odors stored in memory. Such a metric assessment of stimulus quality is not well supported by discrete attractor networks because inputs are mapped onto discrete network states.

      The observation that Tuned networks do not map inputs onto discrete outputs indicates that such networks do not classify inputs as distinct items. Nonetheless, the observed geometrical modifications of continuous representations support the classification of learned inputs or the assessment of metric relationships by hypothetical readout neurons. Geometrical modifications of odor representations may therefore serve as one of multiple steps in multi-layer computations for pattern classification (and/or other computations). In this scenario, the transformation of odor representations in Dp may be seen as related to transformations of representations between different layers in artificial networks, which collectively perform a given task (notwithstanding obvious structural and mechanistic differences between artificial and biological networks). In other words, geometrical transformations of representations in Tuned networks may overrepresent learned (relevant) information at the expense of other information and thereby support further learning processes in other brain areas. An obvious corollary of this scenario is that Dp does not perform odor classification per se based on inputs from the olfactory bulb but reformats representations of odor space based on experience to support computational tasks as part of a larger system. This scenario is now explicitly discussed (p.14).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      The authors conducted a comparative analysis of four networks, varying in the presence of excitatory assemblies and the architecture of inhibitory cell assembly connectivity. They found that co-tuned E-I assemblies provide network stability and a continuous representation of input patterns (on locally constrained manifolds), contrasting with networks with global inhibition that result in attractor networks. 

      Strengths: 

      The findings presented in this paper are very interesting and cutting-edge. The manuscript effectively conveys the message and presents a creative way to represent high-dimensional inputs and network responses. Particularly, the result regarding the projection of input patterns onto local manifolds and continuous representation of input/memory is very Intriguing and novel. Both computational and experimental neuroscientists would find value in reading the paper. 

      Weaknesses: 

      that have continuous representations. This could also be shown in Figure 5B, along with the performance of the random and tuned E-I networks. The latter networks have the advantage of providing network stability compared to the Scaled I network, but at the cost of reduced network salience and, therefore, reduced input decodability. The authors may consider designing a decoder to quantify and compare the classification performance of all four networks. 

      We have now quantified classification by networks with discrete attractor dynamics (Scaled) along with other networks. However, because the neuronal covariance matrix for such networks is low rank and not invertible, pattern classification cannot be analyzed by QDA as in Figure 5B. We therefore classified patterns from the odor subspace by template matching, assigning test patterns to one of the four classes based on correlations (see Supplementary Figure 8). As expected, Scaled networks performed well, but they did not outperform Tuned networks. Moreover, the performance of Scaled networks, but not Tuned networks, depended on the order in which odors were presented to the network. This hysteresis effect is a direct consequence of persistent attractor states and decreased the general classification performance of Scaled networks (see Supplementary Figure 8 for details). These results confirm the prediction that networks with discrete attractor states can efficiently classify inputs, but also reveal disadvantages arising from attractor dynamics. Moreover, the results indicate that the classification performance of Tuned networks is also high under the given task conditions, which simulate a biologically realistic scenario.

      We would also like to emphasize that classification may not be the only task, and perhaps not even a main task, of Dp/piriform cortex or other memory networks with E/I assemblies. Conceivably, other computations could include metric assessments of inputs relative to learned inputs or additional learning-related computations. Please see our response to comment (3) of reviewer 1 for a further discussion of this issue. 

      Networks featuring E/I assemblies could potentially represent multistable attractors by exploring the parameter space for their reciprocal connectivity and connectivity with the rest of the network. However, for co-tuned E-I networks, the scope for achieving multistability is relatively constrained compared to networks employing global or lateral inhibition between assemblies. It would be good if the authors mentioned this in the discussion. Also, the fact that reciprocal inhibition increases network stability has been shown before and should be cited in the statements addressing network stability (e.g., some of the citations in the manuscript, including Rost et al. 2018, Lagzi & Fairhall 2022, and Vogels et al. 2011 have shown this).  

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We now explicitly discuss multistability (see p. 12) and refer to additional references in the statements addressing network stability.

      Providing raster plots of the pDp network for familiar and novel inputs would help with understanding the claims regarding continuous versus discrete representation of inputs, allowing readers to visualize the activity patterns of the four different networks. (similar to Figure 1B). 

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have added raster plots of responses to both familiar and novel inputs in the revised manuscript (Figure 2D and Supplementary Figure 4A).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      This work investigates the computational consequences of assemblies containing both excitatory and inhibitory neurons (E/I assembly) in a model with parameters constrained by experimental data from the telencephalic area Dp of zebrafish. The authors show how this precise E/I balance shapes the geometry of neuronal dynamics in comparison to unstructured networks and networks with more global inhibitory balance. Specifically, E/I assemblies lead to the activity being locally restricted onto manifolds - a dynamical structure in between high-dimensional representations in unstructured networks and discrete attractors in networks with global inhibitory balance. Furthermore, E/I assemblies lead to smoother representations of mixtures of stimuli while those stimuli can still be reliably classified, and allow for more robust learning of additional stimuli. 

      Strengths: 

      Since experimental studies do suggest that E/I balance is very precise and E/I assemblies exist, it is important to study the consequences of those connectivity structures on network dynamics. The authors convincingly show that E/I assemblies lead to different geometries of stimulus representation compared to unstructured networks and networks with global inhibition. This finding might open the door for future studies for exploring the functional advantage of these locally defined manifolds, and how other network properties allow to shape those manifolds. 

      The authors also make sure that their spiking model is well-constrained by experimental data from the zebrafish pDp. Both spontaneous and odor stimulus triggered spiking activity is within the range of experimental measurements. But the model is also general enough to be potentially applied to findings in other animal models and brain regions. 

      Weaknesses: 

      I find the point about pattern completion a bit confusing. In Fig. 3 the authors argue that only the Scaled I network can lead to pattern completion for morphed inputs since the output correlations are higher than the input correlations. For me, this sounds less like the network can perform pattern completion but it can nonlinearly increase the output correlations. Furthermore, in Suppl. Fig. 3 the authors show that activating half the assembly does lead to pattern completion in the sense that also non-activated assembly cells become highly active and that this pattern completion can be seen for Scaled I, Tuned E+I, and Tuned I networks. These two results seem a bit contradictory to me and require further clarification, and the authors might want to clarify how exactly they define pattern completion. 

      We believe that this comment concerns a semantic misunderstanding and apologize for any lack of clarity. We added a definition of pattern completion in the text: “…the retrieval of the whole memory from noisy or corrupted versions of the learned input.”. Pattern completion may be assessed using different procedures. In computational studies, it is often analyzed by delivering input to a subset of the assembly neurons which store a given memory (partial activation). Under these conditions, we find recruitment of the entire assembly in all structured networks, as demonstrated in Supplementary Figure 3. However, these conditions are unlikely to occur during odor presentation because the majority of neurons do not receive any input.

      Another more biologically motivated approach to assess pattern completion is to gradually modify a realistic odor input into a learned input, thereby gradually increasing the overlap between the two inputs. This approach had been used previously in experimental studies (references added to the text p.6). In the presence of assemblies, recurrent connectivity is expected to recruit assembly neurons (and thus retrieve the stored pattern) more efficiently as the learned pattern is approached. This should result in a nonlinear increase in the similarity between the evoked and the learned activity pattern. This signature was prominent in Scaled networks but not in Tuned or rand networks. Obviously, the underlying procedure is different from the partial activation of the assembly described above because input patterns target many neurons (including neurons outside assemblies) and exhibit a biologically realistic distribution of activity. However, this approach has also been referred to as “pattern completion” in the neuroscience literature, which may be the source of semantic confusion here. To clarify the difference between these approaches we have now revised the text and explicitly described each procedure in more detail (see p.6). 

      The authors argue that Tuned E+I networks have several advantages over Scaled I networks. While I agree with the authors that in some cases adding this localized E/I balance is beneficial, I believe that a more rigorous comparison between Tuned E+I networks and Scaled I networks is needed: quantification of variance (Fig. 4G) and angle distributions (Fig. 4H) should also be shown for the Scaled I network. Similarly in Fig. 5, what is the Mahalanobis distance for Scaled I networks and how well can the Scaled I network be classified compared to the Tuned E+I network? I suspect that the Scaled I network will actually be better at classifying odors compared to the E+I network. The authors might want to speculate about the benefit of having networks with both sources of inhibition (local and global) and hence being able to switch between locally defined manifolds and discrete attractor states. 

      We agree that a more rigorous comparison of Tuned and Scaled networks would be of interest. We have added the variance analysis (Fig 4G) and angle distributions (Fig. 4H) for both Tuned I and Scaled networks. However, the Mahalanobis distances and Quadratic Discriminant Analysis cannot be applied to Scaled networks because their neuronal covariance matrix is low rank and not invertible_. To nevertheless compare these networks, we performed template matching by assigning test patterns to one of the four odor classes based on correlations to template patterns (Supplementary Figure 8; see also response to the first comment of reviewer 2). Interestingly, _Scaled networks performed well at classification but did not outperform Tuned networks, and exhibited disadvantages arising from attractor dynamics (Supplementary Figure 8; see also response to the first comment of reviewer 2). Furthermore, in further analyses we found that continuous representational manifolds support metric assessments of inputs relative to learned odors, which cannot be achieved by discrete representations. These results are now shown in Figure 5D-E and discussed explicitly in the text on p.11 (see also response to comment 3 of reviewer 1).

      We preferred not to add a sentence in the Discussion about benefits of networks having both sources of inhibition_,_ as we find this a bit too speculative.

      At a few points in the manuscript, the authors use statements without actually providing evidence in terms of a Figure. Often the authors themselves acknowledge this, by adding the term "not shown" to the end of the sentence. I believe it will be helpful to the reader to be provided with figures or panels in support of the statements.  

      Thank you for this comment. We have provided additional data figures to support the following statements:

      “d<sub>M</sub> was again increased upon learning, particularly between learned odors and reference classes representing other odors (Supplementary Figure 9)”

      “decreasing amplification in assemblies of Scaled networks changed transformations towards the intermediate behavior, albeit with broader firing rate distributions than in Tuned networks (Supplementary Figure 6 B)”  

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Meissner-Bernard et al present a biologically constrained model of telencephalic area of adult zebrafish, a homologous area to the piriform cortex, and argue for the role of precisely balanced memory networks in olfactory processing. 

      This is interesting as it can add to recent evidence on the presence of functional subnetworks in multiple sensory cortices. It is also important in deviating from traditional accounts of memory systems as attractor networks. Evidence for attractor networks has been found in some systems, like in the head direction circuits in the flies. However, the presence of attractor dynamics in other modalities, like sensory systems, and their role in computation has been more contentious. This work contributes to this active line of research in experimental and computational neuroscience by suggesting that, rather than being represented in attractor networks and persistent activity, olfactory memories might be coded by balanced excitation-inhibitory subnetworks. 

      The paper is generally well-written, the figures are informative and of good quality, and multiple approaches and metrics have been used to test and support the main results of the paper. 

      The main strength of the work is in: (1) direct link to biological parameters and measurements, (2) good controls and quantification of the results, and (3) comparison across multiple models. 

      (1) The authors have done a good job of gathering the current experimental information to inform a biological-constrained spiking model of the telencephalic area of adult zebrafish. The results are compared to previous experimental measurements to choose the right regimes of operation. 

      (2) Multiple quantification metrics and controls are used to support the main conclusions and to ensure that the key parameters are controlled for - e.g. when comparing across multiple models.   (3) Four specific models (random, scaled I / attractor, and two variant of specific E-I networks - tuned I and tuned E+I) are compared with different metrics, helping to pinpoint which features emerge in which model. 

      Major problems with the work are: (1) mechanistic explanation of the results in specific E-I networks, (2) parameter exploration, and (3) the functional significance of the specific E-I model. 

      (1) The main problem with the paper is a lack of mechanistic analysis of the models. The models are treated like biological entities and only tested with different assays and metrics to describe their different features (e.g. different geometry of representation in Fig. 4). Given that all the key parameters of the models are known and can be changed (unlike biological networks), it is expected to provide a more analytical account of why specific networks show the reported results. For instance, what is the key mechanism for medium amplification in specific E/I network models (Fig. 3)? How does the specific geometry of representation/manifolds (in Fig. 4) emerge in terms of excitatory-inhibitory interactions, and what are the main mechanisms/parameters? Mechanistic account and analysis of these results are missing in the current version of the paper. 

      Precise balancing of excitation and inhibition in subnetworks would lead to the cancellation of specific dynamical modes responsible for the amplification of responses (hence, deviating from the attractor dynamics with an unstable specific mode). What is the key difference in the specific E/I networks here (tuned I or/and tuned E+I) which make them stand between random and attractor networks? Excitatory and inhibitory neurons have different parameters in the model (Table 1). Time constants of inhibitory and excitatory synapses are also different (P. 13). Are these parameters causing networks to be effectively more excitation dominated (hence deviating from a random spectrum which would be expected from a precisely balanced E/I network, with exactly the same parameters of E and I neurons)? It is necessary to analyse the network models, describe the key mechanism for their amplification, and pinpoint the key differences between E and I neurons which are crucial for this. 

      To address these comments we performed additional simulations and analyses at different levels. Please see our reply to comment (1) of the public review (reviewer 1) for a detailed description. We thank the reviewer for these constructive comments.

      (2) The second major issue with the study is a lack of systematic exploration and analysis of the parameter space. Some parameters are biologically constrained, but not all the parameters. For instance, it is not clear what the justification for the choice of synaptic time scales are (with E synaptic time constants being larger than inhibition: tau_syn_i = 10 ms, tau_syn_E = 30 ms). How would the results change if they are varying these - and other unconstrained - parameters? It is important to show how the main results, especially the manifold localisation, would change by doing a systematic exploration of the key parameters and performing some sensitivity analysis. This would also help to see how robust the results are, which parameters are more important and which parameters are less relevant, and to shed light on the key mechanisms.  

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have now carried out additional simulations with equal time constants for all neurons. Please see our reply to the public review for more details (comment 2 of reviewer 1).

      (3) It is not clear what the main functional advantage of the specific E-I network model is compared to random networks. In terms of activity, they show that specific E-I networks amplify the input more than random networks (Fig. 3). But when it comes to classification, the effect seems to be very small (Fig. 5c). Description of different geometry of representation and manifold localization in specific networks compared to random networks is good, but it is more of an illustration of different activity patterns than proving a functional benefit for the network. The reader is still left with the question of what major functional benefits (in terms of computational/biological processing) should be expected from these networks, if they are to be a good model for olfactory processing and learning. 

      One possibility for instance might be that the tasks used here are too easy to reveal the main benefits of the specific models - and more complex tasks would be needed to assess the functional enhancement (e.g. more noisy conditions or more combination of odours). It would be good to show this more clearly - or at least discuss it in relation to computation and function.

      Please see our reply to the public review (comment 3 of reviewer 1).

      Specific comments: 

      Abstract: "resulting in continuous representations that reflected both relatedness of inputs and *an individual's experience*" 

      It didn't become apparent from the text or the model where the role of "individual's experience" component (or "internal representations" - in the next line) was introduced or shown (apart from a couple of lines in the Discussion) 

      We consider the scenario that that assemblies are the outcome of an experience-dependent plasticity process. To clarify this, we have now made a small addition to the text: “Biological memory networks are thought to store information by experience-dependent changes in the synaptic connectivity between assemblies of neurons.”.

      P. 2: "The resulting state of "precise" synaptic balance stabilizes firing rates because inhomogeneities or fluctuations in excitation are tracked by correlated inhibition" 

      It is not clear what the "inhomogeneities" specifically refers to - they can be temporal, or they can refer to the quenched noise of connectivity, for instance. Please clarify what you mean. 

      The statement has been modified to be more precise: “…“precise” synaptic balance stabilizes firing rates because inhomogeneities in excitation across the population or temporal variations in excitation are tracked by correlated inhibition…”.

      P. 3 (and Methods): When odour stimulus is simulated in the OB, the activity of a fraction of mitral cells is increased (10% to 15 Hz) - but also a fraction of mitral cells is suppressed (5% to 2 Hz). What is the biological motivation or reference for this? It is not provided. Is it needed for the results? Also, it is not explained how the suppressed 5% are chosen (e.g. randomly, without any relation to the increased cells?). 

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. These changes in activity directly reflect experimental observations. We apologize that we forgot to include the references reporting these observations (Friedrich and Laurent, 2001 and 2004); this is now fixed.

      In our simulation, OB neurons do not interact with each other, and the suppressed 5% were indeed randomly selected. We changed the text in Methods accordingly to read: “An additional 75 randomly selected mitral cells were inhibited” 

      P. 4, L. 1-2: "... sparsely connected integrate-and-fire neurons with conductance-based synapses (connection probability {less than or equal to}5%)." 

      Specify the connection probability of specific subtypes (EE, EI, IE, II).  

      We now refer to the Methods section, where this information can be found. 

      “... conductance-based synapses (connection probability ≤5%, Methods)”  

      P. 4, L. 6-7: "Population activity was odor-specific and activity patterns evoked by uncorrelated OB inputs remained uncorrelated in Dp (Figure 1H)" 

      What would happen to correlated OB inputs (e.g. as a result of mixture of two overlapping odours) in this baseline state of the network (before memories being introduced to it)? It would be good to know this, as it sheds light on the initial operating regime of the network in terms of E/I balance and decorrelation of inputs.  

      This information was present in the original manuscript at (Figure 3) but we improved the writing to further clarify this issue: “ (…) we morphed a novel odor into a learned odor (Figure 3A), or a learned odor into another learned odor (Supplementary Figure 3B), and quantified the similarity between morphed and learned odors by the Pearson correlation of the OB activity patterns (input correlation). We then compared input correlations to the corresponding pattern correlations among E neurons in Dp (output correlation). In rand networks, output correlations increased linearly with input correlations but did not exceed them (Figure 3B and Supplementary Figure 3B)”

      P. 4, L. 12-13: "Shuffling spike times of inhibitory neurons resulted in runaway activity with a probability of ~80%, .."   Where is this shown? 

      (There are other occasions too in the paper where references to the supporting figures are missing). 

      We now provide the statistics: “Shuffling spike times of inhibitory neurons resulted in runaway activity with a probability of 0.79 ± 0.20”

      P. 4: "In each network, we created 15 assemblies representing uncorrelated odors. As a consequence, ~30% of E neurons were part of an assembly ..." 

      15 x 100 / 4000 = 37.5% - so it's closer to 40% than 30%. Unless there is some overlap? 

      Yes: despite odors being uncorrelated and connectivity being random, some neurons (6 % of E neurons) belong to more than one assembly.

      P. 4: "When a reached a critical value of ~6, networks became unstable and generated runaway activity (Figure 2B)." 

      Can this transition point be calculated or estimated from the network parameters, and linked to the underlying mechanisms causing it? 

      We thank the reviewer for this interesting question. The unstability arises when inhibitions fails to counterbalance efficiently the increased recurrent excitation within Dp. The transition point is difficult to estimate, as it can depend on several parameters, including the probability of E to E connections, their strength, assembly size, and others. We have therefore not attempted to estimate it analytically.

      P. 4: "Hence, non-specific scaling of inhibition resulted in a divergence of firing rates that exhausted the dynamic range of individual neurons in the population, implying that homeostatic   global inhibition is insufficient to maintain a stable firing rate distribution." 

      I don't think this is justified based on the results and figures presented here (Fig. 2E) - the interpretation is a bit strong and biased towards the conclusions the authors want to draw. 

      To more clearly illustrate the finding that in Scaled networks, assembly neurons are highly active (close to maximal realistic firing rates) whereas non-assembly neurons are nearly silent we have now added Supplementary Fig. 2B. Moreover, we have toned down the text: “Hence, non-specific scaling of inhibition resulted in a large and biologically unrealistic divergence of firing rates (Supplementary Figure 2B) that nearly exhausted the dynamic range of individual neurons in the population, indicating that homeostatic global inhibition is insufficient to maintain a stable firing rate distribution”

      P. 5, third paragraph: Description of Figure 2I, inset is needed, either in the text or caption. 

      The inset is now referred to in the text: ”we projected synaptic conductances of each neuron onto a line representing the E/I ratio expected in a balanced network (“balanced axis”) and onto an orthogonal line (“counter-balanced axis”; Figure 2I inset, Methods).”

      P. 5, last paragraph: another example of writing about results without showing/referring to the corresponding figures: 

      "In rand networks, firing rates increased after stimulus onset and rapidly returned to a low baseline after stimulus offset. Correlations between activity patterns evoked by the same odor at different time points and in different trials were positive but substantially lower than unity, indicating high variability ..." 

      And the continuation with similar lack of references on P. 6: 

      "Scaled networks responded to learned odors with persistent firing of assembly neurons and high pattern correlations across trials and time, implying attractor dynamics (Hopfield, 1982; Khona and Fiete, 2022), whereas Tuned networks exhibited transient responses and modest pattern correlations similar to rand networks." 

      Please go through the Results and fix the references to the corresponding figures on all instances. 

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out these overlooked figure references, which are now fixed.

      P. 8: "These observations further support the conclusion that E/I assemblies locally constrain neuronal dynamics onto manifolds." 

      As discussed in the general major points, mechanistic explanation in terms of how the interaction of E/I dynamics leads to this is missing. 

      As discussed in the reply to the public review (comment 3 of reviewer 1), we have now provided more mechanistic analyses of our observations.

      P. 9: "Hence, E/I assemblies enhanced the classification of inputs related to learned patterns."   The effect seems to be very small. Also, any explanation for why for low test-target correlation the effect is negative (random doing better than tuned E/I)? 

      The size of the effect (plearned – pnovel = 0.074; difference of means; Figure 5C) may appear small in terms of absolute probability, but it is substantial relative to the maximum possible increase (1 – p<sub>novel</sub> =  0.133; Figure 5C). The fact that for low test-target correlations the effect is negative is a direct consequence of the positive effect for high test-target correlations and the presence of 2 learned odors in the 4-way forced choice task. 

      P. 9: "In Scaled I networks, creating two additional memories resulted in a substantial increase   in firing rates, particularly in response to the learned and related odors"   Where is this shown? Please refer to the figure. 

      We thank the reviewer again for pointing this out. We forgot to include a reference to the relevant figure which has now been added in the revised manuscript (Figure 6C).

      P. 10: "The resulting Tuned networks reproduced additional experimental observations that were not used as constraints including irregular firing patterns, lower output than input correlations, and the absence of persistent activity" 

      It is difficult to present these as "additional experimental observations", as all of them are negative, and can exist in random networks too - hence cannot be used as biological evidence in favour of specific E/I networks when compared to random networks. 

      We agree with the reviewer that these additional experimental observations cannot be used as biological evidence favouring Tuned E+I networks over random networks. We here just wanted to point out that additional observations which we did not take into account to fit the model are not invalidating the existence of E-I assemblies in biological networks. As assemblies tend to result in persistent activity in other types of networks, we feel that this observation is worth pointing out.

      Methods: 

      P. 13: Describe the parameters of Eq. 2 after the equation. 

      Done.

      P. 13: "The time constants of inhibitory and excitatory synapses were 10 ms and 30 ms, respectively." 

      What is the (biological) justification for the choice of these parameters? 

      How would varying them affect the main results (e.g. local manifolds)? 

      We chose a relatively slow time constant for excitatory synapses because experimental data indicate that excitatory synaptic currents in Dp and piriform cortex contain a prominent NMDA component. We have now also simulated networks with equal time constants for excitatory and inhibitory synapses and equal biophysical parameters for excitatory and inhibitory neurons, which did not affect the main results (see also reply to the public review: comment 2 of reviewer 1).

      P. 14: "Care was also taken to ensure that the variation in the number of output connections was low across neurons"   How exactly?

      More detailed explanations have now been added in the Methods section: “connections of a presynaptic neuron y to postsynaptic neurons x were randomly deleted when their total number exceeded the average number of output connections by ≥5%, or added when they were lower by ≥5%.“

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Congratulations on the great and interesting work! The results were nicely presented and the idea of continuous encoding on manifolds is very interesting. To improve the quality of the paper, in addition to the major points raised in the public review, here are some more detailed comments for the paper: 

      (1) Generally, citations have to improve. Spiking networks with excitatory assemblies and different architectures of inhibitory populations have been studied before, and the claim about improved network stability in co-tuned E-I networks has been made in the following papers that need to be correctly cited: 

      • Vogels TP, Sprekeler H, Zenke F, Clopath C, Gerstner W. 2011. Inhibitory Plasticity Balances Excitation and Inhibition in Sensory Pathways and Memory Networks. Science 334:1-7. doi:10.1126/science.1212991 (mentions that emerging precise balance on the synaptic weights can result in the overall network stability) 

      • Lagzi F, Bustos MC, Oswald AM, Doiron B. 2021. Assembly formation is stabilized by Parvalbumin neurons and accelerated by Somatostatin neurons. bioRxiv doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2021.09.06.459211 (among other things, contrasts stability and competition which arises from multistable networks with global inhibition and reciprocal inhibition)   • Rost T, Deger M, Nawrot MP. 2018. Winnerless competition in clustered balanced networks: inhibitory assemblies do the trick. Biol Cybern 112:81-98. doi:10.1007/s00422-017-0737-7 (compares different architectures of inhibition and their effects on network dynamics) 

      • Lagzi F, Fairhall A. 2022. Tuned inhibitory firing rate and connection weights as emergent network properties. bioRxiv 2022.04.12.488114. doi:10.1101/2022.04.12.488114 (here, see the eigenvalue and UMAP analysis for a network with global inhibition and E/I assemblies) 

      Additionally, there are lots of pioneering work about tracking of excitatory synaptic inputs by inhibitory populations, that are missing in references. Also, experimental work that show existence of cell assemblies in the brain are largely missing. On the other hand, some references that do not fit the focus of the statements have been incorrectly cited. 

      The authors may consider referencing the following more pertinent studies on spiking networks to support the statement regarding attractor dynamics in the first paragraph in the Introduction (the current citations of Hopfield and Kohonen are for rate-based networks): 

      • Wong, K.-F., & Wang, X.-J. (2006). A recurrent network mechanism of time integration in perceptual decisions. Journal of Neuroscience, 26(4), 1314-1328. https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.3733-05.2006 

      • Wang, X.-J. (2008). Decision making in recurrent neuronal circuits. Neuron, 60(2), 215-234. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2008.09.034  

      • F. Lagzi, & S. Rotter. (2015). Dynamics of competition between subnetworks of spiking neuronal networks in the balanced state. PloS One. 

      • Goldman-Rakic, P. S. (1995). Cellular basis of working memory. Neuron, 14(3), 477-485. 

      • Rost T, Deger M, Nawrot MP. 2018. Winnerless competition in clustered balanced networks: inhibitory assemblies do the trick. Biol Cybern 112:81-98. doi:10.1007/s00422-017-0737-7. 

      • Amit DJ, Tsodyks M (1991) Quantitative study of attractor neural network retrieving at low spike rates: I. substrate-spikes, rates and neuronal gain. Network 2:259-273. 

      • Mazzucato, L., Fontanini, A., & La Camera, G. (2015). Dynamics of Multistable States during Ongoing and Evoked Cortical Activity. Journal of Neuroscience, 35(21), 8214-8231. 

      We thank the reviewer for the references suggestions. We have carefully reviewed the reference list and made the following changes, which we hope address the reviewer’s concerns:

      (1) We adjusted References about network stability in co-tuned E-I networks.

      (2) We added the Lagzi & Rotter (2015), Amit et al. (1991), Mazzucato et al. (2015) and GoldmanRakic (1995) papers in the Introduction as studies on attractor dynamics in spiking neural networks. We preferred to omit the two X.J Wang papers, as they describe attractors in decision making rather than memory processes.

      (3) We added the Ko et al. 2011 paper as experimental evidence for assemblies in the brain. In our view, there are few experimental studies showing the existence of cell assemblies in the brain, which we distinguish from cell ensembles, group of coactive neurons. 

      (4) We also included Hennequin 2018, Brunel 2000, Lagzi et al. 2021 and Eckmann et al. 2024, which we had not cited in the initial manuscript.

      (5) We removed the Wiechert et al. 2010 reference as it does not support the statement about geometry-preserving transformation by random networks.

      (2) The gist of the paper is about how the architecture of inhibition (reciprocal vs. global in this case) can determine network stability and salient responses (related to multistable attractors and variations) for classification purposes. It would improve the narrative of the paper if this point is raised in the Introduction and Discussion section. Also see a relevant paper that addresses this point here: 

      Lagzi F, Bustos MC, Oswald AM, Doiron B. 2021. Assembly formation is stabilized by Parvalbumin neurons and accelerated by Somatostatin neurons. bioRxiv doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2021.09.06.459211 

      Classification has long been proposed to be a function of piriform cortex and autoassociative memory networks in general, and we consider it important. However, the computational function of Dp or piriform cortex is still poorly understood, and we do not focus only on odor classification as a possibility. In fact, continuous representational manifolds also support other functions such as the quantification of distance relationships of an input to previously memorized stimuli, or multi-layer network computations (including classification). In the revised manuscript, we have performed additional analyses to explore these notions in more detail, as explained above (response to public reviews, comment 3 of reviewer 1). Furthermore, we have now expanded the discussion of potential computational functions of Tuned networks and explicitly discuss classification but also other potential functions. 

      (3) A plot for the values of the inhibitory conductances in Figure 1 would complete the analysis for that section. 

      In Figure 1, we decided to only show the conductances that we use to fit our model, namely the afferent and total synaptic conductances. As the values of the inhibitory conductances can be derived from panel E, we refrained from plotting them separately for the sake of simplicity. 

      (4) How did the authors calculate correlations between activity patterns as a function of time in Figure 2E, bottom row? Does the color represent correlation coefficient (which should not be time dependent) or is it a correlation function? This should be explained in the Methods section. 

      The color represents the Pearson correlation coefficient between activity patterns within a narrow time window (100 ms). We updated the Figure legend to clarify this: “Mean correlation between activity patterns evoked by a learned odor at different time points during odor presentation. Correlation coefficients were calculated between pairs of activity vectors composed of the mean firing rates of E neurons in 100 ms time bins. Activity vectors were taken from the same or different trials, except for the diagonal, where only patterns from different trials were considered.”

      (5) Figure 3 needs more clarification (both in the main text and the figure caption). It is not clear what the axes are exactly, and why the network responses for familiar and novel inputs are different. The gray shaded area in panel B needs more explanation as well.  

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We have improved Figure 3A, the figure caption, as well as the text (see p.6). We hope that the figure is now clearer.

      (6) The "scaled I" network, known for representing input patterns in discrete attractors, should exhibit clear separation between network responses in the 2D PC space in the PCA plots. However, Figure 4D and Figure 6D do not reflect this, as all network responses are overlapped. Can the authors explain the overlap in Figure 4D? 

      In Figure 4D, activity of Scaled networks is distributed between three subregions in state space that are separated by the first 2 PCs. Two of them indeed correspond to attractor states representing the two learned odors while the third represents inputs that are not associated with these attractor states. To clarify this, please see also the density plot in Figure 4E. The few datapoints between these three subregions are likely outliers generated by the sequential change in inputs, as described in Supplementary Figure 8C.

      (7) The reason for writing about the ISN networks is not clear. Co-tuned E-I assemblies do not necessarily have to operate in this regime. Also, the results of the paper do not rely on any of the properties of ISNs, but they are more general. Authors should either show the paradoxical effect associated with ISN (i.e., if increasing input to I neurons decreases their responses) or show ISN properties using stability analysis (See computational research conducted at the Allen Institute, namely Millman et al. 2020, eLife ). Currently, the paper reads as if being in the ISN regime is a necessary requirement, which is not true. Also, the arguments do not connect with the rest of the paper and never show up again. Since we know it is not a requirement, there is no need to have those few sentences in the Results section. Also, the choice of alpha=5.0 is extreme, and therefore, it would help to judge the biological realism if the raster plots for Figs 2-6 are shown.

      We have toned down the part on ISN and reduced it to one sentence for readers who might be interested in knowing whether activity is inhibition-stabilized or not. We have also added the reference to the Tsodyks et al. 1997 paper from which we derive our stability analysis. The text now reads “Hence, pDp<sub>sim</sub> entered a balanced state during odor stimulation (Figure 1D, E) with recurrent input dominating over afferent input, as observed in pDp (Rupprecht and Friedrich, 2018). Shuffling spike times of inhibitory neurons resulted in runaway activity with a probability of 0.79 ± 0.20, demonstrating that activity was inhibition-stabilized (Sadeh and Clopath, 2020b, Tsodyks et al., 1997).”  

      We have now also added the raster plots as suggested by the reviewer (see Figure 2D, Supplementary Figure 1 G, Supplementary Figure 4). We thank the reviewer for this comment.

      (8) In the abstract, authors mention "fast pattern classification" and "continual learning," but in the paper, those issues have not been addressed. The study does not include any synaptic plasticity. 

      Concerning “continual learning” we agree that we do not simulate the learning process itself. However, Figure 6 show results of a simulation where two additional patterns were stored in a network that already contained assemblies representing other odors. We consider this a crude way of exploring the end result of a “continual learning” process. “Fast pattern classification” is mentioned because activity in balanced networks can follow fluctuating inputs with high temporal resolution, while networks with stable attractor states tend to be slow. This is likely to account for the occurrence of hysteresis effects in Scaled but not Tuned networks as shown in Supplementary

      Fig. 8.

      (9) In the Introduction, the first sentence in the second paragraph reads: "... when neurons receive strong excitatory and inhibitory synaptic input ...". The word strong should be changed to "weak".

      Also, see the pioneering work of Brunel 2000. 

      In classical balanced networks, strong excitatory inputs are counterbalanced by strong inhibitory inputs, leading to a fluctuation-driven regime. We have added Brunel 2000.

      (10) In the second paragraph of the introduction, the authors refer to studies about structural co-tuning (e.g., where "precise" synaptic balance is mentioned, and Vogels et al. 2011 should be cited there) and functional co-tuning (which is, in fact, different than tracking of excitation by inhibition, but the authors refer to that as co-tuning). It makes it easier to understand which studies talk about structural co-tuning and which ones are about functional co-tuning. The paper by Znamenski 2018, which showed both structural and functional tuning in experiments, is missing here. 

      We added the citation to the now published paper by Znamenskyi et al. (2024).  

      (11) The third paragraph in the Introduction misses some references that address network dynamics that are shaped by the inhibitory architecture in E/I assemblies in spiking networks, like Rost et al 2018 and Lagzi et al 2021. 

      These references have been added.

      (12) The last sentence of the fourth paragraph in the Introduction implies that functional co-tuning is due to structural co-tuning, which is not necessarily true. While structural co-tuning results in functional co-tuning, functional co-tuning does not require structural co-tuning because it could arise from shared correlated input or heterogeneity in synaptic connections from E to I cells.  

      We generally agree with the reviewer, but we are uncertain which sentence the reviewer refers to.

      We assume the reviewer refers to the last sentence of the second (rather than the fourth paragraph), which explicitly mentions the “…structural basis of E/I co-tuning…”. If so, we consider this sentence still correct because the “structural basis” refers not specifically to E/I assemblies, but also includes any other connectivity that may produce co-tuning, including the connectivity underlying the alternative possibilities mentioned by the reviewer (shared correlated input or heterogeneity of synaptic connections).

      (13) In order to ensure that the comparison between network dynamics is legit, authors should mention up front that for all networks, the average firing rates for the excitatory cells were kept at 1 Hz, and the background input was identical for all E and I cells across different networks.

      We slightly revised the text to make this more clear “We (…) uniformly scaled I-to-E connection weights by a factor of χ until E population firing rates in response to learned odors matched the corresponding firing rates in rand networks, i.e., 1 Hz”

      (14) In the last paragraph on page 5, my understanding was that an individual odor could target different cells within an assembly in different trials to generate trial to trail variability. If this is correct, this needs to be mentioned clearly. 

      This is not correct, an odor consists of 150 activated mitral cells with defined firing rates. As now mentioned in the Methods, “Spikes were then generated from a Poisson distribution, and this process was repeated to create trial-to-trial variability.”

      (15) The last paragraph on page 6 mentions that the four OB activity patterns were uncorrelated but if they were designed as in Figure 4A, dues to the existing overlap between the patterns, they cannot be uncorrelated. 

      This appears to be a misunderstanding. We mention in the text (and show in Figure 4B) that the four odors which “… were assigned to the corners of a square…” are uncorrelated.  The intermediate odors are of course not uncorrelated. We slightly modified the corresponding paragraph (now on page 7) to clarify this: “The subspace consisted of a set of OB activity patterns representing four uncorrelated pure odors and mixtures of these pure odors. Pure odors were assigned to the corners of a square and mixtures were generated by selecting active mitral cells from each of the pure odors with probabilities depending on the relative distances from the corners (Figure 4A, Methods).”

      (16) The notion of "learned" and "novel" odors may be misleading as there was no plasticity in the network to acquire an input representation. It would be beneficial for the authors to clarify that by "learned," they imply the presence of the corresponding E assembly for the odor in the network, with the input solely impacting that assembly. Conversely, for "novel" inputs, the input does not target a predefined assembly. In Figure 2 and Figure 4, it would be especially helpful to have the spiking raster plots of some sample E and I cells.  

      As suggested by the reviewer, we have modified the existing spiking raster plots in Figure 2, such that they include examples of responses to both learned and novel odors. We added spiking raster plots showing responses of I neurons to the same odors in Supplementary Figure 1F, as well as spiking raster plots of E neurons in Supplementary Figure 4A. To clarify the usage of “learned” and “novel”, we have added a sentence in the Results section: “We thus refer to an odor as “learned” when a network contains a corresponding assembly, and as “novel” when no such assembly is present.”.

      (17) In the last paragraph of page 8, can the authors explain where the asymmetry comes from? 

      As mentioned in the text, the asymmetry comes from the difference in the covariance structure of different classes. To clarify, we have rephrased the sentence defining the Mahalanobis distance: 

      “This measure quantifies the distance between the pattern and the class center, taking into account covariation of neuronal activity within the class. In bidirectional comparisons between patterns from different classes, the mean dM may be asymmetric if neural covariance differs between classes.”

      (18) The first paragraph of page 9: random networks are not expected to perform pattern classification, but just pattern representation. It would have been better if the authors compared Scaled I network with E/I co-tuned network. Regardless of the expected poorer performance of the E/I co-tuned networks, the result would have been interesting. 

      Please see our reply to the public review (reviewer 2).

      (19) Second paragraph on page 9, the authors should provide statistical significance test analysis for the statement "... was significantly higher ...". 

      We have performed a Wilcoxon signed-rank test, and reported the p-value in the revised manuscript (p < 0.01). 

      (20) The last sentence in the first paragraph on page 11 is not clear. What do the authors mean by "linearize input-output functions", and how does it support their claim? 

      We have now amended this sentence to clarify what we mean: “…linearize the relationship between the mean input and output firing rates of neuronal populations…”.

      (21) In the first sentence of the last paragraph on page 11, the authors mentioned “high variability”, but it is not clear compared with which of the other 3 networks they observed high variability.

      Structurally co-tuned E/I networks are expected to diminish network-level variability. 

      “High variability” refers to the variability of spike trains, which is now mentioned explicity in the text. We hope this more precise statement clarifies this point.

      (22) Methods section, page 14: "firing rates decreased with a time constant of 1, 2 or 4 s". How did they decrease? Was it an implementation algorithm? The time scale of input presentation is 2 s and it overlaps with the decay time constant (particularly with the one with 4 s decrease).  

      Firing rates decreased exponentially. We have added this information in the Methods section.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      In the following, I suggest minor corrections to each section which I believe can improve the manuscript. 

      - There was no github link to the code in the manuscript. The code should be made available with a link to github in the final manuscript. 

      The code can be found here: https://github.com/clairemb90/pDp-model. The link has been added in the Methods section.

      Figure 1: 

      - Fig. 1A: call it pDp not Dp. Please check if this name is consistent in every figure and the text. 

      Thank you for catching this. Now corrected in Figure 1, Figure 2 and in the text.

      - The authors write: "Hence, pDpsim entered an inhibition-stabilized balanced state (Sadeh and Clopath, 2020b) during odor stimulation (Figure 1D, E)." and then later "Shuffling spike times of inhibitory neurons resulted in runaway activity with a probability of ~80%, demonstrating that activity was indeed inhibition-stabilized. These results were robust against parameter variations (Methods)." I would suggest moving the second sentence before the first sentence, because the fact that the network is in the ISN regime follows from the shuffled spike timing result. 

      Also, I'd suggest showing this as a supplementary figure. 

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have removed “inhibition-stabilized” in the first sentence as there is no strong evidence of this in Rupprecht and Friedrich, 2018. And removed “indeed” in the second sentence. We also provided more detailed statistics. The text now reads “Hence, pDpsim entered a balanced state during odor stimulation (Figure 1D, E) with recurrent input dominating over afferent input, as observed in pDp (Rupprecht and Friedrich, 2018). Shuffling spike times of inhibitory neurons resulted in runaway activity with a probability of 0.79 ± 0.20, demonstrating that activity was inhibition-stabilized (Sadeh and Clopath, 2020b).”

      Figure 2: 

      - "... Scaled I networks (Figure 2H." Missing ) 

      Corrected.

      - The authors write "Unlike in Scaled I networks, mean firing rates evoked by novel odors were indistinguishable from those evoked by learned odors and from mean firing rates in rand networks (Figure 2F)." 

      Why is this something you want to see? Isn't it that novel stimuli usually lead to high responses? Eg in the paper Schulz et al., 2021 (eLife) which is also cited by the authors it is shown that novel responses have high onset firing rates. I suggest clarifying this (same in the context of Fig. 3C). 

      In Dp and piriform cortex, firing rates evoked by learned odors are not substantially different from firing rates evoked by novel odors. While small differences between responses to learned versus novel odors cannot be excluded, substantial learning-related differences in firing rates, as observed in other brain areas, have not been described in Dp or piriform cortex. We added references in the last paragraph of p.5. Note that the paper by Schulz et al. (2021) models a different type of circuit.  

      - Fig. 2B: Indicate in figure caption that this is the case "Scaled I" 

      This is not exactly the case “Scaled I”, as the parameter 𝝌𝝌 (increased I to E strength) is set to 1.

      - Suppl Fig. 2I: Is E&F ever used in the manuscript? I couldn't find a reference. I suggest removing it if not needed. 

      Suppl. Fig 2I E&F is now Suppl Fig.1G&H. We now refer to it in the text: “Activity of networks with E assemblies could not be stabilized around 1 Hz by increasing connectivity from subsets of I neurons receiving dense feed-forward input from activated mitral cells (Supplementary Figure 1GH; Sadeh and Clopath, 2020).”

      Figure 3: 

      - As mentioned in my comment in the public review section, I find the arguments about pattern completion a little bit confusing. For me it's not clear why an increase of output correlations over input correlations is considered "pattern completion" (this is not to say that I don't find the nonlinear increase of output correlations interesting). For me, to test pattern completion with second-order statistics one would need to do a similar separation as in Suppl Fig. 3, ie measuring the pairwise correlation at cells in the assembly L that get direct input from L OB with cells in the assembly L that do not get direct input from OB. If the pairwise correlations of assembly cells which do not get direct input from OB increase in correlations, I would consider this as pattern completion (similar to the argument that increase in firing rate in cells which are not directly driven by OB are considered a sign of pattern completion). 

      Also, for me it now seems like that there are contradictory results, in Fig. 3 only Scaled I can lead to pattern completion while in the context of Suppl. Fig. 3 the authors write "We found that assemblies were recruited by partial inputs in all structured pDpsim networks (Scaled and Tuned) without a significant increase in the overall population activity (Supplementary Figure 3A)."   I suggest clarifying what the authors exactly mean by pattern completion, why the increase of output correlations above input correlations can be considered as pattern completion, and why the results differs when looking at firing rates versus correlations. 

      Please see our reply to the public review (reviewer 3).

      - I actually would suggest adding Suppl. Fig. 3 to the main figure. It shows a more intuitive form of pattern completion and in the text there is a lot of back and forth between Fig. 3 and Suppl. Fig. 3 

      We feel that the additional explanations and panels in Fig.3 should clarify this issue and therefore prefer to keep Supplementary Figure 3 as part of the Supplementary Figures for simplicity.  

      - In the whole section "We next explored effects of assemblies ... prevented strong recurrent amplification within E/I assemblies." the authors could provide a link to the respective panel in Fig. 2 after each statement. This would help the reader follow your arguments. 

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. The references to the appropriate panels have been added. 

      - Fig. 3A: I guess the x-axis has been shifted upwards? Should be at zero. 

      We have modified the x-axis to make it consistent with panels B and C.  

      - Fig. 3B: In the figure caption, the dotted line is described as the novel odor but it is actually the unit line. The dashed lines represent the reference to the novel odor. 

      Fixed.

      - Fig. 3C: The " is missing for Pseudo-Assembly N

      Fixed.

      - "...or a learned odor into another learned odor." Have here a ref to the Supplementary Figure 3B.

      Added.

      Figure 4:   

      - "This geometry was largely maintained in the output of rand networks, consistent with the notion that random networks tend to preserve similarity relationships between input patterns (Babadi and Sompolinsky, 2014; Marr, 1969; Schaffer et al., 2018; Wiechert et al., 2010)." I suggest adding here reference to Fig. 4D (left). 

      Added.

      - Please add a definition of E/I assemblies. How do the authors define E/I assemblies? I think they consider both, Tuned I and Tuned E+I as E/I assemblies? In Suppl. Fig. 2I E it looks like tuned feedforward input is defined as E/I assemblies. 

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. E/I assemblies are groups of E and I neurons with enhanced connectivity. In other words, in E/I assemblies, connectivity is enhanced not only between subsets of E neurons, but also between these E neurons and a subset of I neurons. This is now clarified in the text: “We first selected the 25 I neurons that received the largest number of connections from the 100 E neurons of an assembly. To generate E/I assemblies, the connectivity between these two sets of neurons was then enhanced by two procedures.”. We removed “E/I assemblies” in Suppl. Fig.2, where the term was not used correctly, and apologize for the confusion.

      - Suppl. Fig. 4: Could the authors please define what they mean by "Loadings" 

      The loadings indicate the contribution of each neuron to each principal component, see adjusted legend of Suppl. Fig. 4: “G. Loading plot: contribution of neurons to the first two PCs of a rand and a Tuned E+I network (Figure 4D).”

      - Fig. 4F: The authors might want to normalize the participation ratio by the number of neurons (see e.g. Dahmen et al., 2023 bioRxiv, "relative PR"), so the PR is bound between 0 and 1 and the dependence on N is removed. 

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion, but we prefer to use the non-normalized PR as we find it more easily interpretable (e.g. number of attractor states in Scaled networks).

      - Fig. 4G&H: as mentioned in the public review, I'd add the case of Scaled I to be able to compare it to the Tuned E+I case. 

      As already mentioned in the public review, we thank the reviewer for this suggestion, which we have implemented.

      - Figure caption Fig. 4H "Similar results were obtained in the full-dimensional space." I suggest showing this as a supplemental panel. 

      Since this only adds little information, we have chosen not to include it as a supplemental panel to avoid overloading the paper with figures.

      Figure 5: 

      - As mentioned in the public review, I suggest that the authors add the Scaled I case to Fig. 5 (it's shown in all figures and also in Fig. 6 again). I guess for Scaled I the separation between L and M will be very good? 

      Please see our reply to the public review (reviewer 3).

      - Fig. 5A&B: I am a bit confused about which neurons are drawn to calculate the Mahalanobis distance. In Fig. 5A, the schematic indicates that the vector B from which the neurons are drawn is distinct from the distribution Q. For the example of odor L, the distribution Q consists of pure odor L with odors that have little mixtures with the other odors. But the vector v for odor L seems to be drawn only from odors that have slightly higher mixtures (as shown in the schematic in Fig. 5A). Is there a reason to choose the vector v from different odors than the distribution Q? 

      The distribution Q and the vector v consist of activity patterns across the same neurons in response to different odors. The reason to choose a different odor for v was to avoid having this test datapoint being included in the distribution Q. We also wanted Q to be the same for all test datapoints. 

      What does "drawn from whole population" mean? Does this mean that the vectors are drawn from any neuron in pDp? If yes, then I don't understand how the authors can distinguish between different odors (L,M,O,N) on the y-axis. Or does "whole population" mean that the vector is drawn across all assemblies as shown in the schematic in Fig. 5A and the case "neurons drawn from (pseudo-) assembly" means that the authors choose only one specific assembly? In any case, the description here is a bit confusing, I think it would help the reader to clarify those terms better.  

      Yes, “drawn from whole population” means that we randomly draw 80 neurons from the 4000 E neurons in pDp. The y-axis means that we use the activity patterns of these neurons evoked by one of the 4 odors (L, M, N, O) as reference. We have modified the Figure legend to clarify this: “d<sub>M</sub> was computed based on the activity patterns of 80 E neurons drawn from the four (pseudo-) assemblies (top) or from the whole population of 4000 E neurons (bottom). Average of 50 draws.”

      - Suppl Fig. 5A: In the schematic the distance is called d_E(\bar{Q},\bar{V}) while the colorbar has d_E(\bar{Q},\bar{Q}) with the Qs in different color. The green Q should be a V. 

      We thank the reviewer for spotting this mistake, it is now fixed.

      - Fig. 5: Could the authors comment on the fact that a random network seems to be very good in classifying patterns on it's own. Maybe in the Discussion? 

      The task shown in Figure 5 is a relatively easy one, a forced-choice between four classes which are uncorrelated. In Supplementary Figure 9, we now show classification for correlated classes, which is already much harder.

      Figure 6: 

      - Is the correlation induced by creating mixtures like in the other Figures? Please clarify how the correlations were induced. 

      We clarified this point in the Methods section: “The pixel at each vertex corresponded to one pure odor with 150 activated and 75 inhibited mitral cells (…) and the remaining pixels corresponded to mixtures. In the case of correlated pure odors (Figure 6), adjacent pure odors shared half of their activated and half of their inhibited cells.”. An explicit reference to the Methods section has also been added to the figure legend.

      - Fig. 6C (right): why don't we see the clear separation in PC space as shown in Fig. 4? Is this related to the existence of correlations? Please clarify. 

      Yes. The assemblies corresponding to the correlated odors X and Y overlap significantly, and therefore responses to these odors cannot be well separated, especially for Scaled networks. We added the overlap quantification in the Results section to make this clear. “These two additional assemblies had on average 16% of neurons in common due to the similarity of the odors.”

      - "Furthermore, in this regime of higher pattern similarity, dM was again increased upon learning, particularly between learned odors and reference classes representing other odors (not shown)." Please show this (maybe as a supplemental figure). 

      We now show the data in Supplementary Figure 9.

      Discussion: 

      - The authors write: "We found that transformations became more discrete map-like when amplification within assemblies was increased and precision of synaptic balance was reduced. Likewise, decreasing amplification in assemblies of Scaled networks changed transformations towards the intermediate behavior, albeit with broader firing rate distributions than in Tuned networks (not shown)." 

      Where do I see the first point? I guess when I compare in Fig. 4D the case of Scaled I vs Tuned E+I, but the sentence above sounds like the authors showed this in a more step-wise way eg by changing the strength of \alpha or \beta (as defined in Fig. 1). 

      Also I think if the authors want to make the point that decreasing amplification in assemblies changes transformation with a different rate distribution in scaled vs tuned networks, the authors should show it (eg adding a supplemental figure). 

      The first point is indeed supported by data from different figures. Please note that the revised manuscript now contains further simulations that reinforce this statement, particularly those shown in Supplementary Figure 6, and that this point is now discussed more extensively in the Discussion. We hope that these revisions clarify this general point.

      The data showing effects of decreasing amplification in assemblies is now shown in Supplementary Figure 6 (Scaled[adjust])

      - I suggest adding the citation Znamenskiy et al., 2024 (Neuron; https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2023.12.013), which shows that excitatory and inhibitory (PV) neurons with functional similarities are indeed strongly connected in mouse V1, suggesting the existence of E/I assembly structure also in mammals.

      Done.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      It is evident that studying leukocyte extravasation in vitro is a challenge. One needs to include physiological flow, culture cells and isolate primary immune cells. Timing is of utmost importance and a reproducible setup essential. Extra challenges are met when extravasation kinetics in different vascular beds is required, e.g., across the blood-brain barrier. In this study, the authors describe a reliable and reproducible method to analyze leukocyte TEM under physiological flow conditions, including this analysis. That the software can also detect reverse TEM is a plus.

      Strengths:

      It is quite a challenge to get this assay reproducible and stable, in particular as there is flow included. Also for the analysis, there is currently no clear software analysis program, and many labs have their own methods. This paper gives the opportunity to unify the data and results obtained with this assay under label-free conditions. This should eventually lead to more solid and reproducible results.

      Also, the comparison between manual and software analysis is appreciated.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors stress that it can be done in BBB models, but I would argue that it is much more broadly applicable. This is not necessarily a weakness of the study but more an opportunity to strengthen the method. So I would encourage the authors to rewrite some parts and make it more broadly applicable.

      We thank the Reviewer for this suggestion. The barrier properties of the BBB influence the dynamic behavior of T cells during their multi-step extravasation cascade. The crawling of CD4 T cells against the direction of blood-flow is e.g. a unique behavior of T cells on the BBB  that is also observed in vivo(1-3). Nevertheless we fully agree that in principle UFMTrack is usable for studying in general immune cell interactions with endothelial monolayers under physiological flow. We have thus added a statement in the abstract and expanded the discussion to highlight availability of the framework and the potential necessary adaptations required when using UFMTrack for analyzing different experimental setups. Please also note, UFMTrack has been established as basic framework using the example of brain endothelial monolayers and one flow chamber devices while studying different immune cell subsets. The purpose of the publication is to make UFMTrack available to the community to address their specific questions.

      (1) Kawakami, N., Bartholomäus, I., Pesic, M. & Kyratsous, N. I. Intravital Imaging of Autoreactive T Cells in Living Animals. Methods Cell Biol. 113, 149–168 (2013).

      (2) Schläger, C., Litke, T., Flügel, A. & Odoardi, F. In Vivo Visualization of (Auto)Immune Processes in the Central Nervous System of Rodents. in 117–129 (Humana Press, New York, NY, 2014). doi:10.1007/7651_2014_150

      (3) Haghayegh Jahromi, N. et al. Intercellular Adhesion Molecule-1 (ICAM-1) and ICAM-2 Differentially Contribute to Peripheral Activation and CNS Entry of Autoaggressive Th1 and Th17 Cells in Experimental Autoimmune Encephalomyelitis. Front. Immunol. 10, 3056 (2020).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment:

      Developing a reliable method to record ancestry and distinguish between human somatic cells presents significant challenges. I fully acknowledge that my current evidence supporting the claim of lineage tracing with fCpG barcodes is inadequate. I agree with Reviewer 1 that fCpG barcodes are essentially a cellular division clock that diverges over time. A division clock could potentially document when cells cease to divide during development, with immediate daughter cells likely exhibiting more similar barcodes than those that are less related. Although it remains uncertain whether the current fCpG barcodes capture useful biological information, refinement of this type of tool could complement other approaches that reconstruct human brain function, development, and aging.

      Due to my lack of clarity, the fCpG barcode was perceived to be a new type of cell classifier. However, it is fundamentally different. fCpG sites are selected based on their differences between cells of the same type, while traditional cell classifiers focus on sites with consistent methylation patterns in cells of the same type. Despite these opposing criteria, fCpG barcodes and traditional cell classifiers may align because neuron subtypes often share common progenitors. As a result, cells of the same phenotype are also closely related by ancestry, and ex post facto, have similar fCpG barcodes. fCpG barcodes are complementary to cell type classifiers, and potentially provide insights into aspects such as mitotic ages, diversity within a clade, and migration of immediate daughters---information which is otherwise difficult to obtain. The title has been modified to “Human Brain Ancestral Barcodes” to better reflect the function of the fCpG barcodes. The manuscript is edited to correct errors, and a new Supplement is added to further explain fCpG barcode mechanics and present new supporting data.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      I thank Reviewer 1 for his constructive comments. Major noted weaknesses were 1) insufficient clarity and brevity of the methodology, 2) inconsistent or erroneous use of neurodevelopmental concepts, and 3) lack of consideration for alternative explanations.

      (1) The methodology is now outlined in detailed in a new Supplement, including simulations that indicate that the error rate consistent with the experimental data is about 0.01 changes in methylation per fCpG site per division.

      (2) Conceptual and terminology errors noted by the Reviewers are corrected in the manuscript.

      (3) I agree completely with the alternative explanation of Reviewer 1 that fCpGs are “a cellular division clock that diverges over 'time'”. Differences between more traditional cell type classifiers and fCpG barcodes are more fully outlined in the new Supplement.  Ancestry recorded by fCpGs and cell type classifiers are confounded because cells of the same phenotype typically have common progenitors---cells within a clade have similar fCpG barcodes because they are closely related. fCpG barcodes can compliment cell type classifiers with additional information such as mitotic ages, ancestry within a clade, and daughter cell migration.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) A lot of the interpretations suffer from an extremely loose/erroneous use of developmental concepts and a lack of transparency. For instance:

      a) The thalamus is not part of the brain stem

      Corrected.

      b) The pons contains cells other than inhibitory neurons in the data; the same is true for the hippocampus which contains multiple cell types

      Corrected to refer to the specific cell types in these regions.

      c) The author talks about the rostral-caudal timing a lot which is not really discussed to this degree in the cited references. Thus, it is also unclear how interneurons fit in this model as they are distinguished by a ventral-dorsal difference from excitatory neurons. Also, it is unclear whether the timing is really as distinct as claimed. For instance, inhibitory neurons and excitatory neurons significantly overlap in their birth timing. Finally, conceptually, it does not make sense to go by developmental timing as the author proposes that it is the number of divisions that is relevant. While they are somewhat correlated there are potentially stark differences.

      The manuscript attempts to describe what might be broadly expected when barcodes are sampled from different cell types and locations. As a proposed mitotic clock, the fCpG barcode methylation level could time when each neuron ceased division and differentiated. The wide ranges of fCpG barcode methylation of each cell type (Fig 2A) would be consistent with significant overlap between cell types. The manuscript is edited to emphasize overlapping rather than distinct sequential differentiation of the cell types.

      d) Neocortical astrocytes and some oligodendrocytes share a lineage, whereas a subset of oligodendrocytes in the cortex shares an origin with interneurons. This could confound results but is never discussed.

      The manuscript does not assess glial lineages in detail because neurons were preferentially included in the sampling whereas glial cells were non-systematically excluded. This sampling information is now included in the section “fCpG barcode identification”.

      e) Neocortical interneurons should be more closely related in terms of lineage-to-excitatory neurons than other inhibitory neurons of, for instance, the pons. This is not clearly discussed and delineated.

      This is not discussed. It may not be possible analyze these details with the current data. The ancestral tree reconstructions indicate that excitatory neurons that appear earlier in development (and are more methylated) are more often more closely related to inhibitory neurons.

      f) While there is some spread of excitatory neurons tangentially, there is no tangential migration at the scale of interneurons as (somewhat) suggested/implied here.

      The abstract and results have been modified to indicate greater inhibitory than excitatory neuron tangential migration, but that the extent of excitatory neuron tangential migration cannot be determined because of the sparse sampling and that barcodes may be similar by chance.

      g) The nature of the NN cells is quite important as cells not derived from the neocortical anlage are unlikely to share a developmental origin (e.g., microglia, endothelial cells). This should be clarified and clearly stated.

      The manuscript is modified to indicate that NN cells are microglial and endothelial cells. These cells have different developmental origins, and their data are present in Fig 2A, but are not further used for ancestral analysis.  

      (2) The presentation is often somewhat confusing to me and lacks detail. For instance:

      a) The methods are extremely short and I was unable to find a reference for a full pipeline, so other researchers can replicate the work and learn how to use the pipeline.

      The pipeline including python code is outlined in the new Supplement

      b) Often numbers are given as ~XX when the actual number with some indication of confidence or spread would be more appropriate.

      Data ranges are often indicated with the violin plots.

      c) Many figure legends are exceedingly short and do not provide an appropriate level of detail.

      Figure legends have been modified to include more detail

      d) Not defining groups in the figure legends or a table is quite unacceptable to me. I do not think that referring to a prior publication (that does not consistently use these groups anyway) is sufficient.

      The cell groups are based on the annotations provided with each single cell in the public databases.

      e) The used data should be better defined and introduced (number of cells, different subtypes across areas, which cells were excluded; I assume the latter as pons and hippocampus are only mentioned for one type of neuronal cells, see also above).

      The data used are present in Supplemental File 2 under the tab “cell summary H01, H02, H04”.

      f) Why were different upper bounds used for filtering for H01 and H02, and H04 is not mentioned? Why are inhibitory and excitatory neurons specifically mentioned (Lines 61-66)?

      The filtering is used to eliminate, as much as possible, cell type specific methylation, or CpG sites with skewed neuron methylation. The filtering eliminates CpG sites with high or low methylation within each of the three brains, and within the two major neuron subtypes. The goal is to enrich for CpG sites with polymorphic but not cell type specific methylation. This process is ad hoc as success criteria are currently uncertain. The extent of filtering is balanced by the need to retain sufficient numbers of fCpGs to allow comparisons between the neurons.

      g) What 'progenitor' does the author refer to? The Zygote? If yes, can the methylation status be tested directly from a zygote? There is no single progenitor for these cells other than the zygote. Does the assumption hold true when taking this into account? See, for instance, PMID 33737485 for some estimation of lineage bottlenecks.

      A brain progenitor cell can be defined as the common ancestor of all adult neurons, and is the first cell where each of its immediate daughter cell lineages yield adult neurons. The zygote is a progenitor cell to all adult cells, and barcode methylation at the start of conception, from the oocyte to the ICM, was analyzed in the new Supplement. The proposed brain progenitor cell with a fully methylated barcode was not yet evident even in the ICM.

      (3) I am generally not convinced that the fCpGs represent anything but a molecular clock of cell divisions and that many of the similarities are a function of lower division numbers where the state might be more homogenous. This mainly derives from the issues cited above, the lack of convincing evidence to the contrary, and the sparsity of the assessed data.

      Agree that the fCpG barcode is a mitotic clock that becomes polymorphic with divisions. As outlined in the new Supplement, ancestry and cell type are confounded because cells of the same type typically have a common progenitor.

      a) There appears little consideration or modeling of what the ability to switch back does to the lineage reconstruction.

      fCpG methylation flipping is further analyzed and discussed in the new Supplement.

      b) None of the data convinced me that the observations cannot be explained by the aforementioned molecular clock and systematic methylation similarities of cell types due to their cell state.

      See above

      (4) Uncategorized minor issues:

      a) The author should explain concepts like 'molecular clock hypothesis' (line 27) or 'radial unit hypothesis' (line 154), as they are somewhat complex and might not be intuitive to readers.

      The molecular clock hypothesis is deleted and the radial unit hypothesis is explained in more detail in the manuscript.

      b) Line 32: '[...] replication errors are much higher compared to base replication [...]'. I think this is central to the method and should be better explained and referenced. Maybe even through a schematic, as this is a central concept for the entire manuscript.

      The fCpG barcode mechanics are better explained in the new Supplement. With simulations, the fCpG flip rate is about 0.01 per division per fCpG.

      c) Line 41: 'neonatal'. Does the author mean to say prenatal? Most of the cells discussed are postmitotic before birth.

      Corrected to prenatal.

      d) Line 96: what does 'flip' mean in this context? Please also see the comment on Figure 2C.

      Edited to “chage”

      e) Lines 134-135: I am not sure whether the author claims to provide evidence for this question, and I would be careful with claims that this work does resolve the question here.

      Have toned down claims as evidence for my analysis is currently inadequate.

      f) Lines 192-193: I disagree as the fCpGs can switch back and the current data does not convince me that this is an improvement upon mosaic mutation analysis. In my mind, the main advantage is the re-analysis of existing data and the parallel functional insights that can be obtained.

      Lineage analysis is more straightforward with DNA sequencing, but with an error rate of ~10-9 per base per division, one needs to sequence a billion base pairs to distinguish between immediate daughter cells. By contrast, with an inferred error rate of ~10-2 per fCpG per division, much less sequencing (about a million-fold less) is needed to find differences between daughter cells.

      g) Lines 208-209: I would be careful with claims of complexity resolution given many of the limitations and inherent systematic similarities, as well as the potential of fCpGs to change back to an ancestral state later in the lineage.

      Have modified the manuscript to indicate the analysis would be more challenging due to back changes.

      h) There seem to be few figures that assess phenomena across the three brains. Even when they exist there is no attempt to provide any statistical analyses to support the conclusions or permutations to assess outlier status relative to expectations.

      The analysis could be more extensive, but with only three brains, any results, like this study itself, would be rightly judged inadequate.

      Figure 2B: there appears to be a higher number of '0s' for, for instance, inhibitory neurons compared to excitatory neurons. Is that correct and worth mentioning? The changing axes scales also make it hard to assess.

      Inhibitory neurons do appear to have more unmethylated fCpGs compared to excitatory neurons, but in general, most inhibitory fCpGs are methylated with a skew to fully methylated fCpGs, consistent with the barcode starting predominately methylated and inhibitory neurons generally appearing earlier in development relative to excitatory neurons.

      j) Figure 2C: I have several issues with this. A minor one is the use of 'Glial' which, I believe, does not appear anywhere else before this, so I am unclear what this curve represents. Generally, however, I am not sure what the y-axis represents, as it is not described in the methods or figure legend. I initially thought it was the cumulative frequency, but I do not think that this squares with the data shown in B. I appreciate the overall idea of having 'earlier'/samples with fewer divisions being shifted to the left, but it is very confusing to me when I try to understand the details of the plot.

      This graph is now better described in the legend. “Glial” cells are defined as oligodendrocytes and astrocytes. Other non-neuronal cells (such a microglial cells) have now been removed from the graph.

      This graph attempts to illustrate how it may be possible to reconstruct brain development from adult neurons, assuming barcodes are mitotic clocks that become polymorphic with cell division. The X axis is “time”, and the Y axis indicates when different cell types reach their adult levels. The cartoon indicates what is visually present along the X axis during development--- brainstem, then ganglionic eminences with a thin cortex, and finally the mature brain with a robust cortex. Time for the X axis is barcode methylation and starts at 100% and ends at 50% or greater methylation. The fCpG barcode methylation of each cell places it on this timeline and indicates when it ceased dividing and differentiated.

      The Y axis indicates the progressive accumulation of the final adult contents of each cell type during this timeline. Early in development, the brain is rudimentary and adult cells are absent. At 90% methylation, only the inhibitory neurons in the pons are present. At 80% methylation, some excitatory neurons are beginning to appear. Inhibitory neurons in the pons have reached their final adult levels and many other inhibitory neuron types are reaching adult levels. By 70% methylation, most inhibitory neurons have reached their adult levels, and more adult excitatory neurons (mainly low cortical neurons, L4-6) and glial cells are beginning to appear. By 60% methylation, inhibitory neurogenesis has largely finished. Adult excitatory neurons and glial cells are more abundant and reach their adult levels by 50% or greater cell barcode methylation levels.

      The graph illustrates a rough alignment between mitotic ages inferred by barcode methylation levels and the physical appearances of different neuronal types during development. Many neurons die during development, and this graph, if valid, indicates when neurons that survive to adulthood appear during development.

      k) Figure 4Bff: it is confusing to me that the text jumps to these panels after introducing Figure 5. This makes it very hard to read this section of the text.

      The Figures appear in the order they are first referred to in the text.

      l) Figure 5A: could any of this difference be explained by the shared lineage of excitatory neurons and dorsal neocortical glia?

      Not sure

      m) Figure 5B: after stating that interneurons have a higher lineage fidelity, the figure legend here states the opposite and I am somewhat confused by this statement.

      The legend and text have been clarified. Fig 5A restricts fidelity to within inhibitory cell types. Fig 5B compares between neuron subtypes, and illustrates more apparent inhibitory subtype switching, albeit there are more interneuron subtypes than excitatory subtypes.

      n) Figure 5E: generally, the use of tSNE for large pairwise distance analysis is often frowned upon (e.g., PMID 37590228), and I would reconsider this argument.

      This analysis was an attempt to illustrate that cells of the same phenotype based on their tSNE metrics can be either closely or more distantly related. Although the tSNE comparisons were restricted to subtypes (and not to the entire tSNE graph), tSNE are not designed for such comparisons. This graph and discussion are deleted. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      The manuscript by Shibata proposed a potentially interesting idea that variation in methylcytosine across cells can inform cellular lineage in a way similar to single nucleotide variants (SNVs). The work builds on the hypothesis that the "replication" of methylcytosine, presumably by DNMT1, is inaccurate and produces stochastic methylation variants that are inherited in a cellular lineage. Although this notion can be correct to some extent, it does not account for other mechanisms that modulate methylcytosines, such as active gain of methylation mediated by DNMT3A/B activity and activity demethylation mediated by TET activity. In some cases, it is known that the modulation of methylation is targeted by sequence-specific transcription factors. In other words, inaccurate DNMT1 activity is only one of the many potential ways that can lead to methylation variants, which fundamentally weakens the hypothesis that methylation variants can serve as a reliable lineage marker. With that being said (being skeptical of the fundamental hypothesis), I want to be as open-minded as possible and try to propose some specific analyses that might better convince me that the author is correct. However, I suspect that the concept of methylation-based lineage tracing cannot be validated without some kind of lineage tracing experiment, which has been successfully demonstrated for scRNA-seq profiling but not yet for methylation profiling (one example is Delgado et al., nature. 2022).

      I thank Reviewer 2 for the careful evaluation. The validation experiment example (Delgado et al.) introduced sequence barcodes in mice, which is not generally feasible for human studies.

      (1) The manuscript reported that fCpG sites are predominantly intergenic. The author should also score the overlap between fCpG sites and putative regulatory elements and report p-values. If fCpG sites commonly overlap with regulatory elements, that would increase the possibility that these sites being actively regulated by enhancer mechanisms other than maintenance methyltransferase activity.

      As mentioned for Reviewer 1, fCpGs are filtered to eliminate cell type specific methylation.

      (2) The overlap between fCpG and regulatory sequence is a major alternative explanation for many of the observations regarding the effectiveness of using fCpG sites to classify cell types correctly. One would expect the methylation level of thousands of enhancers to be quite effective in distinguishing cell types based on the published single-cell brain methylome works.

      As mentioned above, the manuscript did not clearly indicate that the fCpG barcode is not a cell type classifier. The distinctions between fCpG barcodes and cell type classifiers are better explained in the new Supplement.

      (3) The methylation level of fCpG sites is higher in hindbrain structures and lower in forebrain regions. This observation was interpreted as the hindbrain being the "root" of the methylation barcodes and, through "progressive demethylation" produced the methylation states in the forebrain. This interpretation does not match what is known about methylation dynamics in mammalian brains, in particular, there is no data supporting the process of "progressive demethylation". In fact, it is known that with the activation of DNMT3A during early postnatal development in mice or humans (Lister et al., 2013. Science), there is a global gain of methylation in both CH and CG contexts. This is part of the broader issue I see in this manuscript, which is that the model might be correct if "inaccurate mC replication" is the only force that drives methylation dynamics. But in reality, active enzymatic processes such as the activation of DNMT3A have a global impact on the methylome, and it is unclear if any signature for "inaccurate mC replication" survives the de novo methylation wave caused by DNMT3A activity.

      Reviewer 2 highlights a critical potential flaw in that any ancestral signal recorded by random replication errors could be overwritten by other active methylation processes. I cannot present data that indicates fCpG replication errors are never overwritten, but new data indicate barcode reproducibility and stability with aging.

      New data are also present where barcodes are compared between daughter cells (zygote to ICM) in the setting of active and passive demethylation, when germline methylation is erased. This new analysis shows that daughter cells in 2 to 8 cell embryos have more related barcodes than morula or ICM cells. The subsequent active remethylation by a wave of DNMT3A activity may underlie the observation that the barcode appears to start predominately methylated in brain progenitors.

      (3) Perhaps one way the author could address comment 3 is to analyze methylome data across several developmental stages in the same brain region, to first establish that the signal of "inaccurate mC replication" is robust and does not get erased during early postnatal development when DNMT3A deposits a large amount of de novo methylation.

      See above

      (4) The hypothesis that methylation barcodes are homogeneous among progenitor cells and more polymorphic in derived cells is an interesting one. However, in this study, the observation was likely an artifact caused by the more granular cell types in the brain stem, intermediate granularity in inhibitory cells, and highly continuous cell types in cortical excitatory cells. So, in other words, single-cell studies typically classify hindbrain cell types that are more homogenous, and cortical excitatory cells that are much more heterogeneous. The difference in cell type granularity across brain structures is documented in several whole-brain atlas papers such as Yao et al. 2023 Nature part of the BICCN paper package.

      As noted above, fCpG barcode polymorphisms and cell type differentiation are confounded because cells of the same phenotype tend to have common progenitors. The fCpG barcode is not a cell type classifier but more a cell division clock that becomes polymorphic with time. Although fCpG barcodes could be more polymorphic in cortical excitatory cells because there are many more types, fCpG barcodes would inherently become more polymorphic in excitatory cells because they appear later in development.

      (5) As discussed in comment 2, the author needs to assess whether the successful classification of cell types (brain lineage) using fCpG was, in fact, driven by fCpG sites overlapping with cell-type specific regulatory elements.

      Although unclear in the manuscript, the fCpG is not a cell classifier and the barcode is polymorphic between cells of the same type. fCpG barcodes can appear to be cell classifiers because cell types appear at different times during development, and therefore different cell types have characteristic average barcode methylation levels.

      (6) In Figure 5E, the author tried to address the question of whether methylation barcodes inform lineage or post-mitotic methylation remodeling. The Y-axis corresponds to distances in tSNE. However, tSNE involves non-linear scaling, and the distances cannot be interpreted as biological distances. PCA distances or other types of distances computed from high-dimensional data would be more appropriate.

      The Figure and discussion are deleted (similar comment by Reviewer 1)

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In the manuscript entitled "Human Brain Barcodes", the author sought to use single-cell CpG methylation information to trace cell lineages in the human brain.

      Strengths:

      Tracing cell lineages in the human brain is important but technically challenging. Lineage tracing with single-cell CpG methylation would be interesting if convincing evidence exists.

      Weaknesses:

      As the author noted, "DNA methylation patterns are usually copied between cell division, but the replication errors are much higher compared to base replication". This unstable nature of CpG methylation would introduce significant problems in inferring the true cell lineage. The unreliable CpG methylation status also raises the question of what the "Barcodes" refer to in the title and across this study. Barcodes should be stable in principle and not dynamic across cell generations, as defined in Reference#1. It is not convincing that the "dynamic" CpG methylation fits the "barcodes" terminology. This problem is even more concerning in the last section of results, where CpG would fluctuate in post-mitotic cells.

      I thank Reviewer 3 for his thoughtful and careful evaluation. I think the “barcode” terminology is appropriate. Dynamic engineered barcodes such as CRISPR/Cas9 mutable barcodes are used in biology to record changes over time. The fCpG barcode appears to start with a single state in a progenitor cell and changes with cell division to become polymorphic in adult cells. Therefore, I think the description of a dynamic fCpG barcode is appropriate.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) As the author noted, "DNA methylation patterns are usually copied between cell division, but the replication errors are much higher compared to base replication". This unstable nature of CpG methylation would introduce significant problems in inferring the true cell lineage. To establish DNA methylation as a means for lineage tracing, one control experiment would be testing whether the DNA methylation patterns can faithfully track cell lineages for in vitro differentiated & visibly tracked cell lineages. Has this kind of experiment been done in the field?

      These types of experiments have not been performed to my knowledge and an appropriate tissue culture model is uncertain. New single cell WGBS data from the zygote to ICM indicate that more immediate daughter cells have more related barcodes even in the setting of active DNA demethylation.

      (2) The study includes assumptions that should be backed with solid rationale, supporting evidence, or reference. Here are a couple of examples:

      a) the author discarded stable CpG sites with <0.2 or >0.8 average methylation without a clear rationale in H02, and then used <0.3 and >0.7 for a specific sample H01.

      The filtering was ad hoc and was used to remove, as much as possible, CpG sites with cell type specific or patient specific methylation. CpG sites with skewed methylation are more likely cell type specific, whereas X chromosome CpG sites with methylation closer to 0.5 in male cells are more likely to be unstable. The ad hoc filtering attempted to remove cell specific CpGs sites while still retaining enough CpG sites to allow comparisons between cells.

      b) The author assumed that the early-formed brain stem would resemble progenitors better and have a higher average methylation level than the forebrain. However, this difference in DNA methylation status could reflect developmental timing or cell type-specific gene expression changes.

      This observation that brain stem neurons that appear early in development have highly methylated fCpG barcodes in all 3 brains supports the idea that the fCpG barcode starts predominately methylated. Alternative explanations are possible.

      (3) The conclusion that excitatory neurons undergo tangential migration is unclear - how far away did the author mean for the tangential direction? Lateral dispersion is known, but it would be striking that the excitatory neurons travel across different brain regions. The question is, how would the author interpret shared or divergent methylation for the same cell type across different brain regions?

      As noted with Reviewer 1, this analysis is modified to indicate that evidence of tangential migration is greater for inhibitory than excitatory neurons, but the extent of excitatory neuron migration is uncertain because of sparse sampling, and because fCpG barcodes can be similar by chance.

      (4) The sparsity and resolution of the single-cell DNA methylation data. The methylation status is detected in only a small fraction (~500/31,000 = 1.6%) of fCpGs per cell, with only 48 common sites identified between cell pairs. Given that the human genome contains over 28 million CpG sites, it is important to evaluate whether these fCpGs are truly representative. How many of these sites were considered "barcodes"?

      fCpG barcodes are distinct from traditional cell type classifiers, and how fCpGs are identified are better outlined in the new Supplement.

      (5) While focusing on the X-chromosome may simplify the identification of polymorphic fCpGs, the confidence in determining its methylation status (0 or 1) is questionable when a CpG site is covered by only one read. Did the author consider the read number of detected fCpGs in each cell when calculating methylation levels? Certain CpG sites on autosomes may also have sufficient coverage and high variability across cells, meeting the selection criteria applied to X-chromosome CpGs.

      In most cases, a fCpG site was covered by only a single read

      (6) The overall writing in the Title, the Main text, Figure legends, and Methods sections are overly simplified, making it difficult to follow. For instance, how did the author perform PWD analysis? How did they handle missing values when constructing lineage trees?

      There is not much introduction to lineage tracing in the human brain or the use of DNA methylation to trace cell lineage.

      These shortcomings are improved in the manuscript and with the new Supplement. The analysis pipeline including the Python programs are outlined and included as new Supplemental materials. IQ tree can handle the binary fCpG barcode data and skips missing values with its standard settings.

      Line 80: it is unclear: "Brain patterns were similar"

      Clarified

      Line 98: The meaning is unclear here: "Outer excitatory and glial progenitor cells are present" What are these glial progenitor cells and when/how they stop dividing?

      The glial cells are the oligodendrocytes and astrocytes. The main take away point is that these glial cells have low barcode methylation, consistent with their appearances later in development.

      Line 104: It is unclear if this is a conclusion or assumption -- "A progenitor cell barcode should become increasingly polymorphic with subsequent divisions." The "polymorphic" happens within the progenitors, their progenies, or their progenies at different time points.

      The statement is now clarified as an assumption in the manuscript.

      Similarly line 134 "Barcodes would record neuronal differentiation and migration." Is this a conclusion from this study or a citation? How is the migration part supported?

      The reasoning is better explained in the manuscript.  Migration can be documented if immediate daughter cells with similar barcodes are found in different parts of the adult brain, albeit analysis is confounded by sparse sampling and because barcodes may be similar by chance.

      Line 148 and 150: "Nearest neighbor ... neuron pairs" in DNA methylation status would conceivably reflect their cell type-specific gene expression, how did the author distinguish this from cell lineage?

      As noted above, because cells with similar phenotypes usually arise from common progenitors, cells within a clade are also usually related. However, the barcodes are still polymorphic within a clade and potentially add complementary information on mitotic ages, ancestry within a clade, and possible cell migration.

      Figure 3C: "Cells that emerge early in development" Where are they on the figure?

      Hindbrain neurons differentiate early in development and their barcodes are more methylated. The figure has been modified to label some of the values with their neuron types. Also, the older figure mistakenly included data from all 3 brains and now the data are only from brain H01.

      Figures 4D and 4E, distinguishing cell subtypes is challenging, as the same color palette is used for both excitatory and inhibitory neurons.

      Unfortunate limitations due to complexity and color limitations

      Figures 4 and 5, what are these abbreviations?

      The abbreviations are presented in Figure 1 and maintained in subsequent figures.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors intended to investigate the earliest mechanisms enabling self-prioritization, especially in the attention. Combining a temporal order judgement task with computational modelling based on the Theory of Visual Attention (TVA), the authors suggested that the shapes associated with the self can fundamentally alter the attentional selection of sensory information into awareness. This self-prioritization in attentional selection occurs automatically at early perceptual stages. Furthermore, the processing benefits obtained from attentional selection via self-relatedness and physical salience were separated from each other.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is written in a way that is easy to follow. The methods of the paper are very clear and appropriate.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback and helpful suggestions. Please see specific answers below.

      Weaknesses:

      There are two main concerns:

      (1) The authors had a too strong pre-hypothesis that self-prioritization was associated with attention. They used the prior entry to consciousness (awareness) as an index of attention, which is not appropriate. There may be other processing that makes the stimulus prior to entry to consciousness (e.g. high arousal, high sensitivity), but not attention. The self-related/associated stimulus may be involved in such processing but not attention to make the stimulus easily caught. Perhaps the authors could include other methods such as EEG or MEG to answer this question.

      We found the possibility of other mechanisms to be responsible for “prior entry” interesting too, but believe there are solid grounds for the hypothesis that it is indicative of attention:

      First, prior entry has a long-standing history as in index of attention (e.g., Titchener, 1903; Shore et al., 2001; Yates and Nicholls, 2009; Olivers et al. 2011; see Spence & Parise, 2010, for a review.) Of course, other factors (like the ones mentioned) can contribute to encoding speed. However, for the perceptual condition, we systematically varied a stimulus feature that is associated with selective attention (salience, see e.g. Wolfe, 2021) and kept other features that are known to be associated with other factors such as arousal and sensitivity constant across the two variants (e.g. clear over threshold visibility) or varied them between participants (e.g. the colours / shapes used).

      Second, in the social salience condition we used a manipulation that has repeatedly been used to establish social salience effects in other paradigms (e.g., Li et al., 2022; Liu & Sui, 2016; Scheller et al., 2024; Sui et al., 2015; see Humphreys & Sui, 2016, for a review). We assume that the reviewer’s comment suggests that changes in arousal or sensitivity may be responsible for social salience effects, specifically. We have several reasons to interpret the social salience effects as an alteration in attentional selection, rather than a result of arousal or sensitivity:

      Arousal and attention are closely linked. However, within the present model, arousal is more likely linked to the availability of processing resources (capacity parameter C). That is, enhanced arousal is typically not stimulus-specific, and therefore unlikely affects the *relative* advantage in processing weights/rates of the self-associated (vs other-associated) stimuli. Indeed, a recent study showed that arousal does not modulate the relative division of attentional resources (as modelled by the Theory of Visual Attention; Asgeirsson & Nieuwenhuis, 2017). As such, it is unlikely that arousal can explain the observed results in relative processing changes for the self and other identities.

      Further, there is little reason to assume that presenting a different shape enhances perceptual sensitivity. Firstly, all stimuli were presented well above threshold, which would shrink any effects that were resulting from increases in sensitivity alone. Secondly, shape-associations were counterbalanced across participants, reducing the possibility that specific features, present in the stimulus display, lead to the measurable change in processing rates as a result of enhanced shape-sensitivity.

      Taken together, both, the wealth of literature that suggests prior entry to index attention and the specific design choices within our study, strongly support the notion that the observed changes in processing rates are indicative of changes in attentional selection, rather than other mechanisms (e.g. arousal, sensitivity).

      (2) The authors suggested that there are two independent attention processes. I suspect that the brain needs two attention systems. Is there a probability that the social and perceptual (physical properties of the stimulus) salience fired the same attention processing through different processing?

      We appreciate this thought-provoking comment. We conceptualize attention as a process that can facilitate different levels of representation, rather than as separate systems tuned to specific types of information. Different forms of representation, such as the perceptual shape, or the associated social identity, may be impacted by the same attentional process at different levels of representation. Indeed, our findings suggest that both social and perceptual salience effects may result from the same attentional system, albeit at different levels of representation. This is further supported by the additivity of perceptual and social salience effects and the negative correlation of processing facilitations between perceptually and socially salient cues. These results may reflect a trade-off in how attentional resources are distributed between either perceptually or socially salient stimuli.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The main aim of this research was to explore whether and how self-associations (as opposed to other associations) bias early attentional selection, and whether this can explain well-known self-prioritization phenomena, such as the self-advantage in perceptual matching tasks. The authors adopted the Visual Attention Theory (VAT) by estimating VAT parameters using a hierarchical Bayesian model from the field of attention and applied it to investigate the mechanisms underlying self-prioritization. They also discussed the constraints on the self-prioritization effect in attentional selection. The key conclusions reported were:

      (1) Self-association enhances both attentional weights and processing capacity

      (2) Self-prioritization in attentional selection occurs automatically but diminishes when active social decoding is required, and

      (3) Social and perceptual salience capture attention through distinct mechanisms.

      Strengths:

      Transferring the Theory of Visual Attention parameters estimated by a hierarchical Bayesian model to investigate self-prioritization in attentional selection was a smart approach. This method provides a valuable tool for accessing the very early stages of self-processing, i.e., attention selection. The authors conclude that self-associations can bias visual attention by enhancing both attentional weights and processing capacity and that this process occurs automatically. These findings offer new insights into self-prioritization from the perspective of the early stage of attentional selection.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback and helpful suggestions. Please see specific answers below.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The results are not convincing enough to definitively support their conclusions. This is due to inconsistent findings (e.g., the model selection suggested condition-specific c parameters, but the increase in processing capacity was only slight; the correlations between attentional selection bias and SPE were inconsistent across experiments), unexpected results (e.g., when examining the impact of social association on processing rates, the other-associated stimuli were processed faster after social association, while the self-associated stimuli were processed more slowly), and weak correlations between attentional bias and behavioral SPE, which were reported without any p-value corrections. Additionally, the reasons why the attentional bias of self-association occurs automatically but disappears during active social decoding remain difficult to explain. It is also possible that the self-association with shapes was not strong enough to demonstrate attention bias, rather than the automatic processes as the authors suggest. Although these inconsistencies and unexpected results were discussed, all were post hoc explanations. To convince readers, empirical evidence is needed to support these unexpected findings.

      Thank you for outlining the specific points that raise your concern. We were happy to address these points as follows:

      a. Replications and Consistency: In our study, we consistently observed trends (relative reduction in processing speed of the self-associated stimulus) in the social salience conditions across experiments. While Experiment 2 demonstrated a significant reduction in processing rate towards self-stimuli, there was a notable trend in Experiment 1 as well.

      b. Condition-specific parameters: The condition-specific C parameters, though presenting a small effect size, significantly improved model fit. Inspecting the HDI ranges of our estimated C parameters indicates a high probability (85-89%) that processing capacity increased due to social associations, suggesting that even small changes (~2Hz) can hold meaningful implications within the context attentional selection.

      Please also note that the main conclusions about relative salience (self/other, salient/non-salient) are based on the relative processing rates. Processing rates are the product of the processing capacity (condition- but not stimulus dependent) and the attentional weight (condition and stimulus dependent). The latter is crucial to judge the *relative* advantage of the salient stimulus. Hence, the self-/salient stimulus advantage that is reflected in the ‘processing rate difference’ is automatically also reflected in the relative attentional weights attributed to the self/other and salient/non-salient stimuli. As such, the overall results of an automatic relative advantage of self-associated stimuli hold, independently of the change in overall processing capacity.

      c. Correlations: Regarding the correlations the reviewer noted, we wish to clarify that these were exploratory, and not the primary focus of our research. The aim of these exploratory analyses was to gauge the contribution of attentional selection to matching-based SPEs. As SPEs measured via the matching task are typically based on multiple different levels of processing, the contribution of early attentional selection to their overall magnitude was unclear. Without being able to gauge the possible effect sizes, corrected analyses may prevent detecting small but meaningful effects. As such, the effect sizes reported serve future studies to estimate power a priori and conduct well-powered replications of such exploratory effects. Additionally, Bayes factors were provided to give an appreciation of the strength of the evidence, all suggesting at least moderate evidence in favour of a correlation. Lastly, please note that effects that were measured within individuals and task (processing rate increase in social and perceptual decision dimensions in the TOJ task) showed consistent patterns, suggesting that the modulations within tasks were highly predictive of each other, while the modulations between tasks were not as clearly linked. We will add this clarification to the revised manuscript.

      d. Unexpected results: The unexpected results concerning the processing rates of other-associated versus self-associated stimuli certainly warrant further discussion. We believe that the additional processing steps required for social judgments, reflected in enhanced reaction times, may explain the slower processing of self-associated stimuli in that dimension. We agree that not all findings will align with initial hypotheses, and this variability presents avenues for further research. We have added this to the discussion of social salience effects.

      e. Whether association strength can account for the findings: We appreciate the scepticism regarding the strength of self-association with shapes. However, our within-participant design and control matching task indicate that the relative processing advantage for self-associated stimuli holds across conditions. This makes the scenario that “the self-association with shapes was not strong enough to demonstrate attention bias” very unlikely. Firstly, the relative processing advantage of self-associated stimuli in the perceptual decision condition, and the absence of such advantage in the social decision condition, were evidenced in the same participants. Hence, the strength of association between shapes and social identities was the same for both conditions. However, we only find an advantage for the self-associated shape when participants make perceptual (shape) judgements. It is therefore highly unlikely that the “association strength” can account for the difference in the outcomes between the conditions in experiment 1. Also, note that the order in which these conditions were presented was counter-balanced across participants, reducing the possibility that the automatic self-advantage was merely a result of learning or fatigue. Secondly, all participants completed the standard matching task to ascertain that the association between shapes and identities did indeed lead to processing advantages (across different levels).

      In summary, we believe that the evidence we provide supports the final conclusions. We do, of course, welcome any further empirical evidence that could enhance our understanding of the contribution of different processing levels to the SPE and are committed to exploring these areas in future work.

      (2) The generalization of the findings needs further examination. The current results seem to rely heavily on the perceptual matching task. Whether this attentional selection mechanism of self-prioritization can be generalized to other stimuli, such as self-name, self-face, or other domains of self-association advantages, remains to be tested. In other words, more converging evidence is needed.

      The reviewer indicates that the current findings heavily rely on the perceptual matching task, and it would be more convincing to include other paradigm(s) and different types of stimuli. We are happy to address these points here: first, we specifically used a temporal order paradigm to tap into specific processes, rather than merely relying on the matching task. Attentional selection is, along with other processes, involved in matching, but the TOJ-TVA approach allows tapping into attentional selection specifically.  Second, self-prioritization effects have been replicated across a wide range of stimuli (e.g. faces: Wozniak et al., 2018; names or owned objects: Scheller & Sui, 2022a, or even fully unfamiliar stimuli: Wozniak & Knoblich, 2019) and paradigms (e.g. matching task: Sui et al., 2012; cross-modal cue integration: e.g. Scheller & Sui, 2022b; Scheller et al., 2023; continuous flash suppression: Macrae et al., 2017; temporal order judgment: Constable et al., 2019; Truong et al., 2017). Using neutral geometric shapes, rather than faces and names, addresses a key challenge in self research: mitigating the influence of stimulus familiarity on results. In addition, these newly learned, simple stimuli can be combined with other paradigms, such as the TOJ paradigm in the current study, to investigate the broader impact of self-processing on perception and cognition.

      To the best of our knowledge, this is the first study showing evidence about the mechanisms that are involved in early attentional selection of socially salient stimuli. Future replications and extensions would certainly be useful, as with any experimental paradigm.

      (3) The comparison between the "social" and "perceptual" tasks remains debatable, as it is challenging to equate the levels of social salience and perceptual salience. In addition, these two tasks differ not only in terms of social decoding processes but also in other aspects such as task difficulty. Whether the observed differences between the tasks can definitively suggest the specificity of social decoding, as the authors claim, needs further confirmation.

      Equating the levels of social and perceptual salience is indeed challenging, but not an aim of the present study. Instead, the present study directly compares the mechanisms and effects of social and perceptual salience, specifically experiment 2. By manipulating perceptual salience (relative colour) and social salience (relative shape association) independently and jointly, and quantifying the effects on processing rates, our study allows to directly delineate the contributions of each of these types of salience. The results suggest additive effects (see also Figure 7). Indeed, the possibility remains that these effects are additive because of the use of different perceptual features, so it would be helpful for future studies to explore whether similar perceptual features lead to (supra-/sub-) additive effects. In either case, the study design allows to directly compare the effects and mechanisms of social and perceptual salience.

      Regarding the social and perceptual decision dimensions, they were not expected to be equated. Indeed, the social decision dimension requires additional retrieval of the associated identity, making it likely more challenging. This additional retrieval is also likely responsible for the slower responses towards the social association compared to the shape itself. However, the motivation to compare the effects of these two decisional dimensions lies in the assumption that the self needs to be task relevant. Some evidence suggests that the self needs to be task-relevant to induce self-prioritization effects (e.g., Woźniak & Knoblich, 2022). However, these studies typically used matching tasks and were powered to detect large effects only (e.g. f = 0.4, n = 18). As it is likely that lacking contribution of decisional processing levels (which interact with task-relevance) will reduce the SPE, smaller self-prioritization effects that result from earlier processing levels may not be detected with sufficient statistical power. Targeting specific processing levels, especially those with relatively early contributions or small effect sizes, requires larger samples (here: n = 70) to provide sufficient power. Indeed, by contrasting the relative attentional selection effects in the present study we find that the self does not need to be task-relevant to produce self-prioritization effects. This is in line with recent findings of prior entry of self-faces (Jubile & Kumar, 2021)

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Suggestions:

      (1) The research questions should be revised to better align with the conclusions. For example, Q2 is phrased as "Does self-relatedness bias attentional selection at the level of the perceptual feature representation (shape) or at the level of the associated identity (social association)," which is unclear in its reference to "levels." A more appropriate phrasing would be whether the self-association bias occurs automatically or whether it depends on explicit social decoding.

      Thank you for this suggestion – we have revised the phrasing accordingly: “Does self-relatedness bias attentional selection automatically or does it require explicit social decoding?”

      (2) After presenting the data, it would be helpful to include one or two sentences summarizing the conclusions drawn from the data and how they relate to the research questions. Currently, readers are left to guess whether the results are consistent with the hypotheses.

      Thank you for this suggestion, which we think will enhance the clarity of the manuscript – we have added summary sentences when presenting the results:<br /> “This cross-experimental parameter inspection revealed that participants exhibited an attentional selection bias towards socially associated information. Interestingly, enhanced processing speed was observed for other-associated rather than self-associated information, a pattern that diverged from our prediction.”

      (1) “Results from experiment 2 demonstrated a faster, more automatic attentional selection for self-associated information when the decision did not require explicit social decoding. When the social identity had to be judged, processing speed for self-associated information decreased. Contrary to the hypothesis that social decoding is necessary for self-prioritization to emerge, these findings suggest that attentional selection can operate automatically to prioritize self-associated information. “

      (2) “Taken together, as also confirmed in the cross-experimental analysis, attentional selection favoured the other-related information when social identity had to be judged. In contrast, perceptual salience, as predicted, led to increased processing speed for the more salient stimulus. “

      (3) The identity of the "other" used in the experiments is unclear, making it uncertain whether the results are self-specific. It would be beneficial to compare the self condition with a control condition, such as a close friend vs. an unfamiliar other. Alternatively, the results may reflect attentional bias for familiar vs. unfamiliar individuals rather than self-specific bias.

      Thank you for this comment. Firstly, we would like to clarify that we have provided participants with a description of who the “other” is (see methods: “At the beginning of this task, participants were told that one of the two geometric shapes that was used in the TOJ task has been assigned to them, and the other shape has been assigned to another participant in the experiment – someone they did not know, but who was of similar age and gender”). We aimed to make the ‘other’ as concrete as possible, while maintaining a ‘stranger’ identity.

      Secondly, this specification is in line with the vast majority of the literature, which typically measures the effects of self-prioritization relative to the association with an unfamiliar other (stranger), or an unfamiliar and familiar other (e.g. friend, family member). They find that processing advantages that affect friend-related stimuli (friend-stimuli being processed faster than stranger-associated stimuli) are likely mediated by self-extension, that is, an association of the friend with the self. As such, SPEs, relative to familiar others, are typically smaller in size (see, e.g., Sui et al., 2012). They, however, are less stable and more variable than the self-prioritization effects measured relative to a stranger (see Scheller & Sui, 2022 JEP:HPP). Importantly, this is driven by the variability of the friend-associated stimulus, rather than the self or other-associated stimulus (see Figure 4 in main text and S5 in supplementary material in Scheller & Sui, 2022: https://durham-repository.worktribe.com/output/1210478/the-power-of-the-self-anchoring-information-processing-across-contexts). Effectively, this would suggest that choosing a familiar other as a reference would not only (a) lead to a smaller effect size, but also (b) be a less stable effect, which likely depends on the association the individual has to the other familiar person. In contrast, by associating the other shape with another participant in this experiment, we provide participants not only with a concrete representation of a stranger, but also maximise our ability to detect true effects, as these are likely to be larger and more stable.

      (4) The key aspects of the procedure (e.g., the order of different conditions) and its rationale need to be clearly explained before or during the presentation of the results. Currently, readers are left to infer certain details.

      Thank you for pointing this out. The methods that provide these details are outlined at the end of the document, however, we agree it would be useful to bring some of these details up. We have therefore revised the methods figure (Figure 3) to include an outline of the task type, order, and trial numbers. Task boxes are colour coded by the conditions that are listed in the results figures of the manuscript. We also added these details to the caption of Figure 3.

      “Task structures of Experiments 1 and 2. Both experiments started with a TOJ baseline task. In Experiment 1, only non-salient targets were presented, while in Experiment 2, perceptually salient and non-salient trials were included. These were presented in randomly intermixed order. Next, targets were associated with social identities. Associations were practiced using the matching task. Following association learning, which attaches social salience to the shapes, participants completed the same TOJ task as before. In Experiment 1, they completed one block using a social decision dimension, and one block using a perceptual decision dimension. The order of these blocks was counterbalanced across participants to reduce the influence of order effects in the results. In Experiment 2, perceptually salient and non-salient stimuli were presented in an intermixed fashion, and participants responded within the social decision dimension. Each task block was preceded by 8 (matching) to 14 (TOJ) practice trials.”

      (5) Certain imprecise terms used to describe the results, such as "slightly," "roughly," and "loosely," create confusion for the readers. The authors should take a clearer stance on the results and provide an explanation for why the data only "slightly," "roughly," or "loosely" support the findings.

      Thank you for highlighting this. We have provided a more concrete wording and details throughout (e.g., “target shapes’ were 30% bigger than the ‘background shapes”).

      Lastly, we have updated the formatting of the manuscript to provide higher fidelity figures, which were previously compromised by file conversion.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This provocative manuscript from presents valuable comparisons of the morphologies of Archaean bacterial microfossils to those of microbes transformed under environmental conditions that mimic those present on Earth during the same Eon, although the evidence in support of the conclusions is currently incomplete. The reasons include that taphonomy is not presently considered, and a greater diversity of experimental environmental conditions is not evaluated -- which is important because we ultimately do not know much about Earth's early environments. The authors may want to reframe their conclusions to reflect this work as a first step towards an interpretation of some microfossils as 'proto-cells,' and less so as providing strong support for this hypothesis. 

      Regarding the taphonomic alterations: The editor and reviewers are correct in pointing out this issue. Taphonomic alteration of the microfossils attains special significance in the case of microorganisms, as they lack rigid structures and are prone to morphological alterations during or after their fossilization. We are acutely aware of this issue and have conducted long-term experiments (lasting two years) to observe how cells die, decay, and get preserved. A large section of the manuscript (pages 11 to 20) and a substantial portion of the supplementary information is dedicated to understanding the taphonomic alterations. To the best of our knowledge, these are among the longest experiments done to understand the taphonomic alterations of the cells within laboratory conditions. 

      Recent reports by Orange et al. (1,2)  showed that under favorable environmental conditions, cells could be fossilized rather rapidly with little morphological modifications. We observed a similar phenomenon in this work. Cells in our study underwent rapid encrustation with cations from the growth media. We have analyzed the morphological changes over a period of 18 months. After 18 months, the softer biofilms got encrusted entirely in salt and turned solid (Fig. ). Despite this transformation, morphologically intact cells could still be observed within these structures. This suggests that the cells inhabiting Archaean coastal marine environments could undergo rather rapid encrustation, and their morphological features could be preserved in the geological record with little taphonomic alteration.    

      Regarding the environmental conditions: We are in total agreement with the reviewers that much is unknown about Archaean geology and its environmental conditions. Like the present-day Earth, Archaean Earth certainly had regions that greatly differed in their environmental conditions—volcanic freshwater ponds, brines, mildly halophilic coastal marine environments, and geothermal and hydrothermal vents, to name a few. Our experimental design focuses on one environment we have a relatively good understanding of rather than the rest of the planet, of which we know little. Below, we list our reasons for restricting to coastal marine environments and studying cells under mildly halophilic experimental conditions.  

      (1) Very little continental crust from Haden and early Archaean Eon exists on the presentday Earth. Much of our geochemical understanding of this time period was a result of studying the Pilbara Iron Formations and the Barberton Greenstone Belt. Geological investigations suggest that these sites were coastal marine environments. The salinity of coastal marine environments is higher than that of open oceans due to the greater water evaporation within these environments. Moreover, brines were discovered within pillow basalts within the Barberton greenstone belt, suggesting that the salinity within these sites is higher or similar to marine environments. 

      (2) We are not certain about the environmental conditions that could have supported the origin of life. However, all currently known Archaean microfossils were reported from coastal marine environments (3.8-2.4Ga). This suggests that proto-life likely flourished in mildly halophilic environments, similar to the experimental conditions employed in our study. 

      (3) The chemical analysis of Archaean microfossils also suggests that they lived in saltrich environments, as most, if not all, microfossils are closely associated, often encrusted in a thin layer of salt.  

      However, we concur with the reviewers that our interpretations should be reassessed if Archaean microfossils that greatly differ from the currently known microfossils are to be discovered or if new microfossils are to be reported from environments other than coastal marine sites.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      Microfossils from the Paleoarchean Eon represent the oldest evidence of life, but their nature has been strongly debated among scientists. To resolve this, the authors reconstructed the lifecycles of Archaean organisms by transforming a Gram-positive bacterium into a primitive lipid vesicle-like state and simulating early Earth conditions. They successfully replicated all morphologies and life cycles of Archaean microfossils and studied cell degradation processes over several years, finding that encrustation with minerals like salt preserved these cells as fossilized organic carbon. Their findings suggest that microfossils from 3.8 to 2.5 billion years ago were likely liposome-like protocells with energy conservation pathways but without regulated morphology. 

      Strengths: 

      The authors have crafted a compelling narrative about the morphological similarities between microfossils from various sites and proliferating wall-deficient bacterial cells, providing detailed comparisons that have never been demonstrated in this detail before. The extensive number of supporting figures is impressive, highlighting numerous similarities. While conclusively proving that these microfossils are proliferating protocells morphologically akin to those studied here is challenging, we applaud this effort as the first detailed comparison between microfossils and morphologically primitive cells. 

      Weaknesses: 

      Although the species used in this study closely resembles the fossils morphologically, it would be beneficial to provide a clearer explanation for its selection. The literature indicates that many bacteria, if not all, can be rendered cell wall-deficient, making the rationale for choosing this specific species somewhat unclear. While this manuscript includes clear morphological comparisons, we believe the authors do not adequately address the limitations of using modern bacterial species in their study. All contemporary bacteria have undergone extensive evolutionary changes, developing complex and intertwined genetic pathways unlike those of early life forms. Consequently, comparing existing bacteria with fossilized life forms is largely hypothetical, a point that should be more thoroughly emphasized in the discussion. 

      Another weak aspect of the study is the absence of any quantitative data. While we understand that obtaining such data for microfossils may be challenging, it would be helpful to present the frequencies of different proliferative events observed in the bacterium used. Additionally, reflecting on the chemical factors in early life that might cause these distinct proliferation modes would provide valuable context. 

      Regarding our choice of using modern organisms or this particular bacterial species: 

      Based on current scientific knowledge, it is logical to infer that cellular life originated as protocells; nevertheless, there has been no direct geological evidence for the existence of such cells on early Earth. Hence, protocells remain an entirely theoretical concept. Moreover, protocells are considered to have been far more primitive than present-day cells. Surprisingly, this lack of sophistication was the biggest challenge in understanding protocells. Designing experiments in which cells are primitive (but not as primitive as non-living lipid vesicles) and still retain a functional resemblance to a living cell does pose some practical challenges. Laboratory experiments with substitute (proxy) protocells almost always come with some limitations. Although not a perfect proxy, we believe protocells and protoplasts share certain characteristics. Having said that, we would like to reemphasize that protoplasts are not protocells. Our reasons for using protoplasts as model organisms and working with this bacterial species (Exiguobacterium Strain-Molly) are based on several scientific and practical criteria listed below.

      (1) Irrespective of cell physiology and intracellular complexity, we believe that protoplasts and protocells share certain similarities in the biophysical properties of their cytoplasm. We explained our reasoning in the manuscript introduction and in our previous manuscripts (Kanaparthi et al., 2024 & Kanaparthi et al., 2023). In short, to be classified as a cell, even a protocell should possess minimal biosynthetic pathways, a physiological mechanism of harvesting free energy from the surrounding (energy-yielding pathways), and a means of replicating its genetic material and transferring it to the daughter cells. These minimal physiological processes could incorporate considerable cytoplasmic complexity. Hence, the biophysical properties of the protocell cytoplasm could have resembled those of the cytoplasm of protoplasts, irrespective of the genomic complexity. 

      (2) Irrespective of their physiology, protoplasts exhibit several key similarities to protocells, such as their inherent inability to regulate their morphology or reproduction. This similarity was pointed out in previous studies (3). Despite possessing all the necessary genetic information, protoplasts undergo reproduction through simple physiochemical processes independent of canonical molecular biological processes. This method of reproduction is considered to have been erratic and rather primitive, akin to the theoretical propositions on protocells. Although protoplasts are fully evolved cells with considerable physiological complexity, the above-mentioned biophysical similarities suggest that the protoplast life cycle could morphologically resemble that of protocells (in no other aspect except for their morphology and reproduction).  

      (3) Physiologically or genomically different species of Gram-positive protoplasts are shown to exhibit similar morphologies. This suggests that when Gram-positive bacteria lose their cell wall and turn into a protoplast,  they reproduce in a similar manner independent of physiological or genome-based differences. As morphology and only morphology is key to our study, at least from the scope of this study, intracellular complexity is not a key consideration. 

      (4) This specific strain was isolated from submerged freshwater springs in the Dead Sea. This isolate and members of this bacterial genus are known to have been well acclimatized to growing in a wide range of salt concentrations and in different salt species. This is important for our study (this and previous manuscript), in which cells must be grown not only at high salt concentrations (1-15%) but in different salts like NaCl, MgCl<sub>2</sub>, and KCl. 

      (5) Our initial interest in this isolate was due to its ability to reduce iron at high salt concentrations. Given that most spherical microfossils are found in Archaean-banded iron formations covered in pyrite, this suggests that these microfossils could have been reducing oxidized iron species like Fe(III). Nevertheless, over the course of our study, we realized the complexities of live cell staining and imaging under anoxic conditions. Given that the scope of the manuscript is restricted only to comparing the morphologies, not the physiology, we abandoned the idea of growing cells under anoxic conditions.  

      Based on these observations, cell physiology may not be a key consideration, at least within the scope of studying microfossil morphology. However, we want to emphasize again that “We do not claim present-day protoplasts are protocells.”  

      Regarding the absence of quantitative data:

      We are unsure what the reviewer meant by the absence of quantitative data. Is it from the cell size/reproductive pathways perspective or from a microfossil/ecological perspective? At the risk of being portrayed in a bad light, we admit that we did not present quantitative data from either of these perspectives. In our defense, this was not due to our lack of effort but due to the practical limitations imposed by our model organism. 

      If the reviewer means the quantitative data regarding cell sizes and morphology: In our previous work, we studied the relationship between protoplast morphology, growth rate, and environmental conditions. In that study, we proposed that the growth rate is one factor that regulates protoplast morphology. Nevertheless, we did not observe uniformity in the sizes of the cells. This lack of uniformity was not just between the replicates but even among the cells grown within the same culture flask or the cells within the same microscopic field. Moreover, cells are often observed to be reproducing either by forming internal or external or by both these processes at the same time. The size and morphological differences among cells within a growth stage could be explained by the physiological and growth rate heterogenicity among cells. 

      Bacterial growth curves and their partition into different stages (lag, log & stationary), in general, represent the growth dynamics of an entire bacterial population. Nevertheless, averaging the data obscures the behavior of individual cells (4,5). It is known that genetically identical cells within a single bacterial population could exhibit considerable cell-to-cell variation in gene expression (6,7) and growth rates (8). The reason for such stochastic behavior among monoclonal cells has not been well understood. In the case of normal cells, morphological manifestation of these variations is restricted by a rigid cell wall. Given the absence of a cell wall in protoplasts, we assume such cell-to-cell variations in growth rate is manifested in cell morphology. This makes it challenging to quantitatively determine variations in cell sizes or the size increase in a statically robust manner, even in monoclonal cells. 

      Although this lack of uniformity in cell sizes should not be perceived as a limitation, this behavior is consistently observed among microfossils. Spherical microfossils of similar morphology but different sizes were reported from different microfossil sites (9,10). In this regard, both protoplasts and microfossils are very similar. 

      If the reviewer means the quantitative data from an ecological perspective: 

      Based on the elemental composition and the isotopic signatures of the organic carbon, we can deduce if these structures are of biological origin or not. However, any further interpretation of this data to annotate these microfossils to a particular physiology group is fraught with errors. Hence, we refrain from making any inferences about the physiology and ecological function of these microfossils. This lack of clarity on the physiology of microfossils reduces the chance of quantitative studies on their ecological functions. Moreover, we would like to re-emphasize that the scope of this work is restricted to morphological comparison and is not targeted at understanding the ecological function of these microfossils. This narrow objective also limits the nature of the quantitative data we could present.

      Moreover, developing a quantitative understanding of some phenomena could be technically challenging. Many theories on the origin of life, like chemical evolution, started with the qualitative observation that lightning could mediate the synthesis of biologically relevant organic carbon. Our quantitative understanding of this process is still being explored and debated even to this day.     

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      In summary, the manuscript describes life-cycle-related morphologies of primitive vesiclelike states (Em-P) produced in the laboratory from the Gram-positive bacterium Exiguobacterium Strain-Molly) under assumed Archean environmental conditions. Em-P morphologies (life cycles) are controlled by the "native environment". In order to mimic Archean environmental conditions, soy broth supplemented with Dead Sea salt was used to cultivate Em-Ps. The manuscript compares Archean microfossils and biofilms from selected photos with those laboratory morphologies. The photos derive from publications on various stratigraphic sections of Paleo- to Neoarchean ages. Based on the similarity of morphologies of microfossils and Em-Ps, the manuscript concludes that all Archean microfossils are in fact not prokaryotes, but merely "sacks of cytoplasm". 

      Strengths: 

      The approach of the authors to recognize the possibility that "real" cells were not around in the Archean time is appealing. The manuscript reflects the very hard work by the authors composing the Em-Ps used for comparison and selecting the appropriate photo material of fossils. 

      Weaknesses: 

      While the basic idea is very interesting, the manuscript includes flaws and falls short in presenting supportive data. The manuscript makes too simplistic assumptions on the "Archean paleoenvironment". First, like in our modern world, the environmental conditions during the Archean time were not globally the same. Second, we do not know much about the Archean paleoenvironment due to the immense lack of rock records. More so, the Archean stratigraphic sections from where the fossil material derived record different paleoenvironments: shelf to tidal flat and lacustrine settings, so differences must have been significant. Finally, the Archean spanned 2.500 billion years and it is unlikely that environmental conditions remained the same. Diurnal or seasonal variations are not considered. Sediment types are not considered. Due to these reasons, the laboratory model of an Archean paleoenvironment and the life therein is too simplistic. Another aspect is that eucaryote cells are described from Archean rocks, so it seems unlikely that prokaryotes were not around at the same time. Considering other fossil evidence preserved in Archean rocks except for microfossils, the many early Archean microbialites that show baffling and trapping cannot be explained without the presence of "real cells". With respect to lithology: chert is a rock predominantly composed of silica, not salt. The formation of Em-Ps in the "salty" laboratory set-up seems therefore not a good fit to evaluate chert fossils. Formation of structures in sediment is one step. The second step is their preservation. However, the second aspect of taphonomy is largely excluded in the manuscript, and the role of fossilization (lithification) of Em-Ps is not discussed. This is important because Archean rock successions are known for their tectonic and hydrothermal overprint, as well as recrystallization over time. Some of the comparisons of laboratory morphologies with fossil microfossils and biofilms are incorrect because scales differ by magnitudes. In general, one has to recognize that prokaryote cell morphologies do not offer many variations. It is possible to arrive at the morphologies described in various ways including abiotic ones. 

      Regarding the simplistic presumptions on the Archaean Eon environmental conditions, we provided a detailed explanation of this issue in our response to the eLife evaluation. In short, we agree with the reviewer that little is known about the Archaean Eon environmental conditions at a planetary scale. Hence, we restricted our study to one particular environment of which we had a comparatively good understanding. The Archaean Eon spanned 2.5 billion years. However, most of the microfossil sites we discussed in the manuscript are older than 3 billion years, with one exception (2.4 billion years old Turee Creek microfossils). We presume that conditions within this niche (coastal marine) environment could not have changed greatly until 2Ga, after which there have been major changes in the ocean salt composition and salinities.

      In the manuscript, we discussed extensively the reasons for restricting our study to these particular environmental conditions. Further explanations of these choices are presented in our response to the eLife evaluation (also see our previous manuscript). In short, the fact that all known microfossils are restricted to coastal marine environments justifies the experimental conditions employed in our study. Nevertheless, we agree with the reviewer that all lab-based studies involve some extent of simplification. This gap/mismatch is even wider when it comes to studies involving origin or early life on Earth.

      We are not arguing that prokaryotes are not around at this time. The key message of the manuscript is that they are present, but they have not developed intracellular mechanisms to regulate their morphology and remained primitive in this aspect.  

      The sizes of the microfossils and cells from our study were similar in most cases. However, we agree with the reviewer that they deviated considerably in some cases, for example, S70, S73, and S83. These size variations are limited to sedimentary structures like laminations rather than cells. These differences should be expected as we try to replicate the real-life morphologies of biofilms that could have extended over large swats of natural environments in a 2ml volume chamber slide. More specifically, in Fig. S70, there is a considerable size mismatch. But, in Fig. S73, the sizes were comparable between A & C (of course, the size of our reproduction did not match B). In the case of Fig. S83, we do not see a huge size mismatch.      

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      We would like to provide several suggestions for changes in text and additions to data analysis. 

      39-41: It has been stated that reconstructing the lifecycle is the only way of understanding the nature of these microfossils. First of all, I would rephrase this to 'the most promising way', as there are always multiple approaches to comparing phenomena. 

      We agree with the reviewer's suggestion. The suggested changes have been made (line 41). 

      125: Please rephrase "under the environmental condition of early Earth" to "under experimental conditions possibly resembling the conditions of the Paleoarchean Eon". Now it sounds like the exact environmental conditions have been produced, which has already been debated in the discussion. 

      We agree with the reviewer's suggestion. The suggested changes have been made (line 127). 

      125: Please mention the fold change in size, the original size in numbers, and whether this change is statistically significant. 

      In the above sections of this document, we explained our reservations about presenting the exact number.

      128: Have you found a difference in the relative percentages of modes of reproduction? In other words, is there a difference in percentage between forming internal daughter cells or a string of external daughter cells? 

      We explained our reservations about presenting the exact number above. But this has been extensively discussed in our accompaining manuscript. We want to reemphasize that the scope of this manuscript is restricted to comparing morphologies rather than providing a mechanistic explanation of the reproduction process. 

      151: A similar model for endocytosis has already been described in proliferating wall-less cells (Kapteijn et al., 2023). In the discussion, please compare your results with the observations made in that paper. 

      This is an oversight on our part. The manuscript suggested by the reviewer has now been added (line 154 & 155).  

      163: Please use another word for uncanny. We suggest using 'strong resemblance'. 

      We changed this according to the reviewers' suggestion (line 168). 

      433: Please elaborate on why the results are not shown. This sounds like a statement that should be substantiated further. 

      To observe growth and simultaneously image the cells, we conducted these experiments in chamber slides (2ml volume). Over time, we observed cells growing and breaking out of the salt crust (Fig. S86, S87 & Movie 22) and a gradual increase in the turbidity of the media. Although not quantitative, this is a qualitative indication of growth. We did not take precise measurements for several reasons. This sample is precious; it took us almost two years to solidify the biofilm completely, as shown in Fig. S84A. Hence, it was in limited supply, which prevented us from inoculating these salt crusts into large volumes of fresh media. Given a long period of starvation, these cells often exhibited a long lag phase (several days), and there wasn't enough volume to do OD measurements over time. 

      We also crushed the solidified biofilm with a sterile spatula before transferring it into the chamber slide with growth media. This resulted in debris in the form of small solid particles, which interfered with our OD measurements. These practical considerations made it challenging to determine the growth precisely. Despite these challenges, we measured an OD of 4 in some chamber slides after two weeks of incubation. Given that these measurements were done haphazardly, we chose not to present this data. 

      456: Could you please double-check whether the description is correct for the figure? 8C and 8D are part of Figure 8B, but this is stated otherwise in the description. 

      We thank the reviewer for pointing it out. It has now been rectified (line 461-472).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      We thank Reviewer #2  for carefully reading the manuscript and such an elaborate list of questions. The revisions suggested have definitely improved the quality of the manuscript. Here, we would like to address some of the questions that came up repeatedly below. One frequently asked question is regarding the letters denoting the individual figures within the images. For comparison purposes, we often reproduced previously published images. To maintain a consistent figure style, we often have to block the previous denotations with an opaque square and give a new letter. 

      The second question that appeared repeatedly below is the missing scale bars in some of the images within a figure. We often did not include a scale bar in the images when this image is an enlarged section of another image within the same figure.     

      Title: Please consider being more precise in the title. Microfossils are only one fossil group of "oldest life". Perhaps better: "On the nature of some microfossils in Archean rocks". (see also Line 37).  

      Authors’ response: The title conveys a broader message without quantitative insinuations. If our manuscript had been titled "On the nature of all known Archaean microfossils,” we should have agreed with the reviewer's suggestion and changed it to "On the nature of some microfossils in Archean rocks". As it is not, we respectfully decline to make this modification.     

      Abstract:  

      Line 41: "one way", not "the only way" 

      We agree with the reviewer’s comment, and necessary changes have been made (line 41).  

      Introduction: 

      Line 58f: "oldest sedimentary rock successions", not "oldest known rock formations". There are rocks of much older ages, but those are not well preserved due to metamorphic overprint, or the rocks are igneous to begin with. Minor issue: please note that "formations" are used as stratigraphic units, not so much to describe a rock succession in the field. 

      We agree with the reviewer’s comment and have made necessary changes (line 58).

      Line 67: Microfossils are widely accepted as evidence of life. Please rephrase. 

      We agree with the reviewer’s comment, and necessary changes have been made.

      Line 71 - 74: perhaps add a sentence of information here.

      We agree with the reviewer’s comment, and necessary changes have been made (line 71).

      Line 76: which "chemical and mineralogical considerations"? 

      This has been rephrased to “Apart from the chemical and δ<sup>13</sup>C-biomass composition” (line 76).

      Line 84ff: This is a somewhat sweeping statement. Please remember that there are microbialites in such rocks that require already a high level of biofilm organization. The existence of cyanobacteria-type microbes in the Archean is also increasingly considered. 

      We are aware of literature that labeled the clusters of Archaean microfossils as biofilms and layered structures as microbialites or stromatolite-like structures. However, the use of these terms is increasingly being discouraged. A more recent consensus among researchers suggests annotating these structures simply as sedimentary structures, as microbially induced sedimentary structures (MISS). 

      We respectfully disagree with the reviewer’s comment that Archaean microfossils exhibit a high level of biofilm organization. We are not aware of any studies that have conducted such comprehensive research on the architecture of Archaean biofilms. We are not even certain if these clusters of Archaean cells could even be labeled as biofilms in the true sense of the term. We presently lack an exact definition of a biofilm. In our study, we do see sedimentation and bacteria and their encapsulation in cell debris. From a broader perspective, any such aggregation of cells enclosed in cell debris could be annotated as a biofilm. However, more in-depth studies show that biofilm is not a random but a highly organized structure. Different bacterial species have different biofilm architectures and chemical composition. The multispecies biofilms in natural environments are even more complex. We do agree with the reviewer that these structures could broadly be labeled as biofilms, but we presently lack a good, if any, understanding of the Archaean biofilm architecture. 

      Regarding the annotation of microfossils as cyanobacteria, we respectfully disagree with the reviewer. This is not a new concept. Many of the Archaean microfossils were annotated as cyanobacteria at the time of their discovery. This annotation is not without controversy. With the advent of genome-based studies, researchers are increasingly moving away from this school of thought.  

      Line 101ff: The conditions on early Earth are unknown - there are many varying opinions. Perhaps simply state that this laboratory model simulates an Archean Earth environment of these conditions outlined. 

      This is a good idea. We thank the reviewer for this suggestion, and we made appropriate changes. 

      Line 112: manuscript to be replaced by "paper"? 

      This change has been made (line 114).

      Line 116: "spanned years" - how many years? 

      We now added the number of years in the brackets (line 118).

      Results: 

      Line 125: see comment for 101ff. 

      we made appropriate changes. 

      Figure 1: Caption: Please write out ICV the first time this abbreviation is used. Images: Note that some lettering appears to not fit their white labels underneath. (G, H, I, J0, and M). 

      We apologize; this is an oversight on our part. We now spell complete expansion of ICV, the first time we used this abbreviation. 

      We took these images from previously published work (references in the figure legend), so we must block out the previous figure captions. This is necessary to maintain a uniform style throughout the manuscript. 

      Line 152ff.: here would be a great opportunity to show in a graph the size variations of modern ICVs and to compare the variations with those in the fossil material. 

      In the above sections of this document, we explained our reservations about presenting the exact number.

      Line 159f.: Fig.1K - what is to see here? Maybe a close-up or - better - a small sketch would help? 

      Fig. 1K shows the surface depressions formed during the vesicle formation. The surface characteristics of EM-P and microfossils is very similar.   

      Line 161f.: reference?  

      The paragraph spanning lines 159 to 172 discusses the morphological similarities between EM-P and SPF microfossils. We rechecked the reference no 35 (Delarue 2019). This is the correct reference. We do not see a mistake if the reviewer meant the reference to the figures.    

      Line 164ff.: A question may be asked, how many fossils of the Strelley Pool population would look similar to the "modeled" ones. Questions may rise in which way the environmental conditions control such morphology variations. Perhaps more details? 

      This relationship between the environmental conditions and the morphology is discussed extensively in our previous work (11).  

      Line 193: what is meant by "similar discontinuous distribution of organic carbon"?

      This statement highlights similarities between EM-P and microfossils. The distribution of cytoplasm within the cells is not uniform. There are regions with and devoid of cytoplasm, which is quite unusual for bacteria. Some previous studies argued that this could indicate that these organic structures are of abiotic origin. Here, we show that EMP-like cells could exhibit such a patchy distribution of cytoplasm within the cell.    

      Line 218 - 291: The observations are very nice, however, the figures of fossil material in Figures 3 A, B, and C appear not to conform. Perhaps use D, E and I to K. Also, S48 does not show features as described here (see below).  

      We did not completely understand the reviewer’s question. As mentioned in the figure legend, both the microfossils and the cells exhibit string with spherical daughter cells within them. Moreover, there are also other similarities like the presence of hollow spherical structures devoid of organic carbon. We also saw several mistakes in the Fig. S48 legend. We have rectified them, and we thank the reviewer for pointing them out.   

      Line 293f: Title with "." at end?

      This change has been made.

      Line 298: predominantly in chert. In clastic material preservation of cells and pores is unlikely due to the common lack of in situ entombment by silica. 

      We rephrased this entire paragraph to better convey our message. Either way, we are not arguing that hollow pore spaces exist. As the reviewer mentioned, they will, of course, be filled up with silica. In this entire paragraph, we did not refer to hollow spaces. So, we are not entirely sure what the question was.     

      Line 324, 328-349: Please see below comments on the supplementary figures 51-62. Some of the interpretations of morphologies may be incorrect. 

      Please find our response to the reviewer’s comments on individual figures below.  

      Figure 5 A to D look interesting, however E to J appear to be unconvincing. What is the grey frame in D (not the white insert). 

      The grey color is just the background that was added during the 3D rendering process.  

      Figure 6 does not appear to be convincing. - Erase? 

      We did not understand the reviewer’s reservations regarding this figure. Images A-F within the figure show the gradual transformation of cells into honeycomb-like structures, and images G-J show such structures from the Archaean that are closely associated with microfossils. Moreover, we did not come up with this terminology (honeycomb-like). Previous manuscripts proposed it.  

      Line 379ff: S66 and 69, please see my comments below. Microfossils "were often discovered" in layers of organic carbon. 

      Please see our response below.   

      Line 393-403: Laminae? There are many ways to arrive at C-rich laminae, especially, if the material was compressed during burial. Basically, any type of biofilm would appear as laminae, if compressed. The appearance of thin layers is a mere coincidence. Note that the scale difference in S70, S73, as well as S83, is way too high (cm versus μm!) to allow any such sweeping conclusions. What are α- and β- laminations, the one described by Tice et al.? The arguments are not convincing.

      We propose that cells be compressed to form laminae. We answered this question above about the differences in the scale bars. Yes, we are referring to α- and β- laminations described by Tice et al.       

      Figure 7: This is an interesting figure, but what are the arguments for B and C, the fossil material, being a membrane? Debris cannot be distinguished with certainty at this scale in the insert of C. B could also be a shriveled-up set of trichomes.  

      We agree with the reviewer that debris cannot be definitely differentiated. Traditionally, annotations given to microfossil structures such as biofilm, intact cells, or laminations were all based on morphological similarities with existing structures observed in microorganisms. Given that the structures observed in our study are very similar to the microfossil structures, it is logical to make such inferences. Scales in A & B match perfectly well. The structure in C is much larger, but, as we mentioned in reply to one of the reviewer’s earlier questions, some of the structures from natural environments could not be reproduced at scale in lab experiments. Working in a 2 ml chamber slides does impose some restrictions.   

      Figure 8: The figure does not show any honeycomb patterns. The "gaps" in the Moodies laminae are known as lenticular particles in biofilms. They form by desiccated and shriveledup biofilm that mineralizes in situ. Sometimes also entrapped gases induce precipitation. Note also that the modelled material shows a kind of skin around the blobs that are not present in the Moodies material.  

      We agree that entrapped gas bubbles could have formed lenticular gaps. In the manuscript, we did not discount this possibility. However, if that is the case, one should explain why we often find clumps of organic carbon within these gaps. As we presented a step-by-step transformation of parallel layers of cells into laminations, which also had similar lenticular gaps, we believe this is a more plausible way such structures could have formed. In the end, there could have been more than one way such structures could have been formed. 

      We do see the honeycomb pattern in the hollow gaps. Often, the 3D-rendering of the STED images obscures some details. Hence, in the figure legend, we referred to the supplementary figures also show the sequence of steps involved in the formation of such a pattern.      

      Line 405-417: During deposition of clastic sediment any hollow space would be compressed during burial and settling. It is rare that additional pore space (except between the graingrain-contacts) remains visible, especially after consolidation. The exception would be if very early silicification took place filling in any pore space. What about EPS being replaced by mineralic substance? The arguments are not convincing. 

      We are suggesting that EPS or cell debris is rapidly encrusted by cations from the surrounding environment and gets solidified into rigid structures. This makes it possible for the structures to be preserved in the fossil record. We believe that hollow structures like the lenticular gaps will be filled up with silica. 

      We do not agree with the reviewer’s comment that all biological structures will be compressed. If this is true, there should be no intact microfossils in the Archaean sedimentary structures, which is definitely not the case.      

      Line 419-430: Lithification takes place within the sediment and therefore is commonly controlled by the chemistry of pore water and chemical compounds that derive from the dissolution of minerals close by. Another aspect to consider is whether "desiccation cracks" on that small scale may be artefacts related to sample preparation (?).  

      We agree that desiccation cracks could have formed during the sample preparation for SEM imaging, as this involves drying the biofilms. However, we observed that the sample we used for SEM is a completely solidified biofilm (Fig. S84), so we expect little change in its morphology during drying. Moreover, visible cracks and pointy edges were also observed in wet samples, as shown in Fig. S87.        

      Line 432 - 439: Please see comments on the supplementary material below.

      Please find our response to the reviewer’s comments on individual figures below.  

      Discussion:  

      Line 477f: "all known microfossil morphologies" - is this a correct statement? Also, would the Archean world provide only one kind of "EM-P type"? Morphologies of prokaryote cells (spherical, rod-shaped, filamentous) in general are very simple, and any researcher of Precambrian material will appreciate the difficulties in concluding on taxonomy. There are papers that investigate putative microfossils in chert as features related to life cycles. Microfossil-papers commonly appear not to be controversial give and take some specific cases.  

      We made a mistake in using the term “all known microfossil morphologies.” We have now changed it to “all known spherical microfossils” from this statement (line 483). However, we do not agree with the statement that microfossil manuscripts tend not to be controversial. Assigning taxonomy to microfossils is anything but controversial. This has been intensely debated among the scientific community.     

      Line 494-496: This statement should be in the Introduction.

      We agree with the reviewer’s comment. In an earlier version of the manuscript this statement was in the introduction. To put this statement in its proper context, it needs to be associated with a discussion about the importance of morphology in the identification of microfossils. The present version of the manuscript do not permit moving an entire paragraph into the introduction. Hence, we think making this statement in the discussion section is appropriate. 

      Line 484ff. The discussion on biogenicity of microfossils is long-standing (e.g., biogenicity criteria by Buick 1990 and other papers), and nothing new. In paleontology, modern prokaryotes may serve as models but everyone working on Archean microfossils will agree that these cannot correspond to modern groups. An example is fossil "cyanobacteria" that is thought to have been around already in the early Archean. While morphologically very similar to modern cyanobacteria, their genetic information certainly differed - how much will perhaps remain undisclosed by material of that high age.  

      Yes, we agree with the reviewer that there has been a longstanding conflict on the topic of biogenicity of microfossils. However, we have never come across manuscripts suggesting that modern microorganisms should only be used as models. If at all, there have been numerous manuscripts suggesting that these microfossils represent cyanobacteria, streptomycetes, and methanotrophs. Regarding the annotation of microfossils as cyanobacteria, we addressed this issue in one of the previous questions raised by the reviewer.    

      Line 498ff: Can the variation of morphology and sizes of the EM-Ps be demonstrated statistically? Line 505ff are very speculative statements. Relabeling of what could be vesicles as "microfossils" appears inappropriate. Contrary to what is stated in the manuscript, the morphologies of the Dresser Formation vesicles do not resemble the S3 to S14 spheroids from the Strelley Pool, the Waterfall, and Mt Goldsworthy sites listed in the manuscript. The spindle-shaped vesicles in Wacey et al are not addressed by this manuscript. What roles in mineral and element composition would have played diagenetic alteration and the extreme hydrothermal overprint and weathering typical for Dresser material? S59, S60 do not show what is stated, and the material derives from the Barberton Greenstone Belt, not the Pilbara.

      Please see the comments below regarding the supplementary images. 

      We did not observe huge variations in the cell morphology. Morphologies, in most cases, were restricted to spherical cells with intracellular vesicles or filamentous extensions. Regarding the sizes of the cells, we see some variations. However, we are reluctant to provide exact numbers. We have presented our reasons above.

      We respectfully disagree with the reviewer’s comments. We see quite some similarities between Dresser formation microfossils and our cells. Not just the similarities, we have provided step-by-step transformation of cells that resulted in these morphologies. We fail to see what exactly is the speculation here. The argument that they should be classified as abiotic structures is based on the opinion that cells do form such structures. We clearly show here that they can, and these biological structures resemble Dresser formation microfossils more closely than the abiotic structures. 

      Regarding the figures S3-S14. We think they are morphologically very similar. Often, it's not just comparing both images or making exact reproductions (which is not possible). We should focus on reproducing the distinctive morphological features of these microfossils.  

      We agree with the reviewer that we did not reproduce all the structures reported by Wacey’s original manuscript, such as spherical structures. We are currently preparing another manuscript to address the filamentous microfossils. These spindle-like structures will be addressed in this subsequent work. 

      We agree with the reviewer, we often have difficulties differentiating between cells and vesicles. This is not a problem in the early stages of growth. During the log phase, a significant volume of the cell consists of the cytoplasm, with hollow vesicles constituting only a minor volume (Fig. 1B or S1A). During the later growth stages (Fig. 1E7F or S11), cells were almost hollow, with numerous daughter cells within them. These cells often resemble hollow vesicles rather than cells. However, given these are biologically formed structures, and one could argue that these vesicles are still alive as there is still a minimal amount of cytoplasm (Fig. S27). Hence, we should consider them as cells until they break apart to release daughter cells. 

      Regarding Figures S59 and S60, we did not claim either of these microfossils is from Pilbara Iron Formations. The legend of Figure S59 clearly states that these structures are from Buck Reef Chert, originally reported by Tice et al., 2006 (Figure 16 in the original manuscript). The legend of Figure S60 says these structures were originally reported by Barlow et al., 2018, from the Turee Creek Formation. 

      Line 546f and 552: The sites including microfossils in the Archean represent different paleoenvironments ranging from marine to terrestrial to lacustrine. References 6 and 66 are well-developed studies focusing on specific stratigraphic successions, but cannot include information covering other Archean worlds of the over 2.5 Ga years Archean time.  

      All the Archaean microfossils reported to date are from volcanic coastal marine environments. We are aware that there are rocky terrestrial environments, but no microfossils have been reported from these sites. We are unaware of any Archaean microfossils reported from freshwater environments. 

      Line 570ff: The statements may represent a hypothesis, but the data presented are too preliminary to substantiate the assumptions.

      We believe this is a correct inference from an evolutionary, genomic, and now from a morphological perspective. 

      Figures:  

      Please check all text and supplementary figures, whether scale bars are of different styles within the figure (minor quibble). 

      S3 (no scale in C, D); S4, S5: Note that scale bars are of different styles. 

      We believe we addressed this issue above. 

      S6 D: depressions here are well visible - perhaps exchange with a photo in the main text? Note that scale bars are of different styles.  

      We agree that depressions are well visible in E. The same image of EM-P cell in E is also present in Fig. 1D in the main text.   

      S7: Scale bars should all be of the same style, if anyhow possible. Scale in D? 

      We believe we addressed this issue above. 

      S9: F appears to be distorted. Is the fossil like this? The figure would need additional indicators (arrows) pointing toward what the reader needs to see - not clear in this version. More explanation in the figure caption could be offered. 

      We rechecked the figure from the original publication to check if by mistake the figure was distorted during the assembly of this image. We can assure you that this is not the case. We are not sure what further could be said in the figure legend.     

      S13: What is shown in the inserts of D and E that is also visible in A and B? Here a sketch of the steps would help. 

      We did not understand the question.  

      S14: Scale in A, B? 

      We believe we addressed this issue above. 

      S15: Scales in A, E, C, D 

      We believe we addressed this issue above. 

      S16: scales in D, E, G, H, I, J?  

      We believe we addressed this issue above. 

      S17: "I" appears squeezed, is that so? If morphology is an important message, perhaps reduce the entire figure so it fits the layout. Note that labels A, B, C, and D are displaced. 

      As shown in several subsequent figures, the hollow spherical vesicles are compressed first into honeycomb-like structures, and they often undergo further compression to form lamination-like structures. Such images often give the impression that the entire figure is squashed, but this is not the case. If one examines the figure closely, you could see perfectly spherical vesicles together with laterally sqeezed structures. Regarding the figure labels, we addressed this issue above. 

      S18: The filamentous feature in C could also be the grain boundaries of the crystals. Can this be excluded as an interpretation? Are there microfossils with the cell membranes? That would be an excellent contribution to this figure. Note that scale bars are of different styles.

      If this is a one-off observation, we could have arrived at the reviewer's opinion. But spherical cells in a “string of beads” configuration were frequently reported from several sites, to be discounted as mere interpretation.    

      S19: The morphologies in A - insert appear to be similar to E - insert in the lower left corner. The chain of cells in A may look similar to the morphologies in E - insert upper right of the image. B - what is to see here? D - the inclusions do not appear spherical (?). Does C look similar to the cluster with the arrow in the lower part of image E? Note that scale bars are of different styles (minor quibble). A, B, C, and D appear compressed. Perhaps reduce the size of the overall image?  

      The structures highlighted (yellow box) in C are similar to the highlighted regions in E—the agglomeration of hollow vesicles. It is hard to get understand this similarity in one figure. The similarities are apparent when one sees the Movie 4 and Fig. S12, clearly showing the spherical daughter cells within the hollow vesicle. We now added the movie reference to the figure legend.    

      S20: A appears not to contribute much. The lineations in B appear to be diagenetic. However, C is suitable. Perhaps use only C, D, E? 

      We believe too many unrecognizable structures are being labeled as diagenetic. Nevertheless, we do not subscribe to the notion that these are too lenient interpretations. These interpretations are justified as such structures have not been reported from live cells. This is the first study to report that cells could form such structures. As we now reproduced these structures, an alternate interpretation that these are organic structures derived from microfossils should be entertained. 

      S 21: Note that scale bars are of different styles.  

      We believe we addressed this issue above. 

      S22: Perhaps add an arrow in F, where the cell opened, and add "see arrow" in the caption? Is this the same situation as shown in C (white arrow)? What is shown by the white arrow in A? Note that scale bars are of different styles.

      We did the necessary changes.  

      S23: In the caption and main text, please replace "&" with "and" (please check also the other figure captions, e.g. S24). Note that scale bars are of different styles. What is shown in F? A, D - what is shown here?

      We replaced “&” with “and.”  

      S24: Note that scale bars are of different styles. Note that Wacey et al. describe the vesicles as abiotic not as "microfossils"; please correct in figure caption [same also S26; 25; 28].

      We are aware of Prof. Dr. Wacey’s interpretations. We discuss it at length in the discussion section our manuscript. Based on the similarities between the Dresser formation structures and structures formed by EM-P, we contest that these are abiotic structures.  

      S25: Appears compressed; note different scale bars. 

      We believe we addressed this issue above. 

      S28: The label in B is still in the upper right corner; scale in D? What is to see in rectangles (blue and red) in A, B? In fossil material, this could be anything. 

      These figures are taken from a previous manuscript cited in the figure legend. We could not erase or modify these figures.  

      S33: "L"ewis; G appears a bit too diffuse - erase? Note that scale bars are of different styles.

      We believe we addressed this issue above. 

      S34: This figure appears unconvincing. Erase? 

      There are considerable similarities between the microfossils and structures formed by EM-P. If the reviewer expands a bit on what he finds unconvincing, we can address his reservations.    

      S35: It would be more convincing to show only the morphological similarities between the cell clusters. B and C are too blurry to distinguish much. Scales in D to F and in sketches? A appears compressed (?). 

      We rechecked the original manuscript to see if image A was distorted while making this figure, but this is not the case. Regarding B & C, cells in this image are faint as they are hollow vesicles and, by nature, do not generate too much contrast when imaged with a phase-contrast microscope. There are some limitations on how much we can improve the contrast. We now added scale bars for D-I. Similarly, faint hollow vesicles can be seen in Fig. S21 C & D, and Fig. 3H.  

      S36: Very nice; in B no purple arrow is visible. Note that scale bars are of different styles. S37 and S36 are very much the same - fuse, perhaps?  

      We are sorry for the confusion. There are purple arrows in Fig. S37B-D. 

      S38: this is a more unconvincing figure - erase? 

      Unconvincing in wahy sense. There are considerable similarities between the microfossils and structures formed by EM-P. If the reviewer expands a bit on what he finds unconvincing, we can address his reservations.

      S39: white rectangle in A? Arrow in A? Note that scale bars are of different styles.

      These are some of the unavoidable remnants from the image from the original publication. 

      S40: in F: CM, V = ?; Note that scale bars are of different style. 

      It’s an oversite on our part. We now added the definitions to the figure legaend. We thank the reviewer for pointing it out.  

      S41: Rectangles in D, E, F, G can be deleted? Scales and labels missing in photos lower right. 

      Those rectangles are added by the image processing software to the 3Drendered images. Regarding the missing scale bars in H & I they are the magnified regions of F. The scale bar is already present in F.   

      S42: appears compressed. G could be trimmed. Labels too small; scale in G? 

      This is a curled-up folded membrane. We needed to lower the resolution of some images to restrict the size of the supplement to journal size restrictions. It is not possible to present 85 figures in high resolution. But we assure you that the image is not laterally compressed in any manner.   

      S43: This figure appears to be unconvincing. Reducing to pairing B, C, D with L, K? Spherical inclusions in B? Scales in E to G? Similar in S44: A, B, E only? Note that scale bars are of different styles. 

      Figures I to K are important. They show not just the morphological similarities but also the sequence of steps through which such structures are formed. We addressed the issue of the scale bars above.  

      S45: A, B, and C appear to show live or subrecent material. How was this isolated of a rock? Note that scale bars are of different styles.  

      It is common to treat rocks with acids to dissolve them and then retrieve organic structures within them. This technique is becoming increasingly common. The procedure is quite extensively discussed in the original manuscript. We don’t see much differences in the scale bars of microfossils and EM-P cells, they are quite similar. 

      S46: A: what is to see here? Note that scale bars are of different styles. 

      There are considerable similarities between the folded fabric like organic structures with spherical inclusions and structures formed by EM-P. If the reviewer expands a bit on what he finds unconvincing, we can address his reservations.    

      S47: Perhaps enlarge B and erase A. Note that scale bars are of different styles. 

      S48: Image B appears to show the fossil material - is the figure caption inconsistent? There are no aggregations visible in the boxes in A. H is described in the figure caption but missing in the figure. Overall, F and G do not appear to mirror anything in A to E (which may be fossil material?). 

      S51; S52 B, C, E; S53: these figures appear unconvincing - erase? 

      Unconvincing in what sense? The structures from our study are very similar to the microfossils.   

      S54: North "Pole; scale bars in A to C =? 

      These figures were borrowed from an earlier publication referenced in the figure legend. That is the reason for the differences in the styles of scale bars.  

      S55: D and E appear not to contribute anything. Perhaps add arrow(s) and more explanation? Check the spelling in the caption, please. 

      D & E show morphological similarities between cells from our study and microfossils (A).   

      S56: Hexagonal morphologies may also be a consequence of diagenesis. Overall, perhaps erase this figure?  

      I certainly agree that could be one of the reasons for the hexagonal morphologies. Such geometric polygonal morphologies have not been observed in living organisms. Nevertheless, as you can see from the figure, such morphologies could also be formed by living organisms. Hence, this alternate interpretation should not be discounted.   

      S57: The figure caption needs improvement. Please add more description. What show arrows in A, what are the numbers in A? What is the relation between the image attached to the right side of A? Is this a close-up? Note that scale bars are of different styles. 

      We expanded a bit on our original description of the figure. However, we request the reviewer to keep in mind that the parts of the figure are taken from previous publication. We are not at liberty to modifiy them, like removing the arrows. This imposes some constrains. 

      S58: There are no honeycomb-shaped features visible. What is to see here? Erase this figure? 

      Clearly, one can see spherical and polygonal shapes within the Archaean organic structures and mat-like structures formed by EM-P.  

      S59 and S60: What is to see here? - Erase? 

      Clearly, one can see spherical and polygonal shapes within the Archaean organic structures and mat-like structures formed by EM-P in Fig. S59. Further disintegration of these honeycomb shaped mats into filamentous struructures with spherical cells attached to them can be seen in both Archaean organic structures and structures formed by EM-P.   

      S61: This figure appears to be unconvincing. B and F may be a good pairing. Note that scale bars are of different styles.  

      There are considerable similarities between the microfossils and structures formed by EM-P. If the reviewer expands a bit on what he finds unconvincing, we might be able to address his reservations.     

      S62: This figure appears to be unconvincing - erase?

      There are considerable similarities between the microfossils and structures formed by EM-P. If the reviewer expands a bit on what he finds unconvincing, we might be able to address his reservations.     

      S66: This figure is unconvincing - erase? 

      There are considerable similarities between the microfossils and structures formed by EM-P. If the reviewer expands a bit on what he finds unconvincing, we might be able to address his reservations.    

      S68: Scale in B, D, and E? 

      Image B is just a magnified image of a small portion of image A. Hence, there is no need for an additional scale bar. The same is true for images D and E. 

      S69: This figure appears to be unconvincing, at least the fossil part. Filamentous features are visible in fossil material as well, but nothing else. 

      We are not sure what filamentous features the reviewer is referring to. Both the figures show morphologically similar spherical cells covered in membrane debris.    

      S70 [as well as S82]: Good thinking here, but scales differ by magnitudes (cm to μm). Erase this figure? Very similar to Figure S73: Insert in C has which scale in comparison to B? Note that scale bars are of different styles.  

      We realize the scale bars are of different sizes. In our defense, our experiments are conducted in 1ml volume chamber slides. We don’t have the luxury of doing these experiments on a scale similar to the natural environments. The size differences are to be expected. 

      S71: Scale in E? 

      Image E is just a magnified image of a small portion of image D. Hence, we believe a scale bar is unnecessary. 

      S72: Scale in insert?  

      The insert is just a magnified region of A & C

      S75: This figure appears to be unconvincing. This is clastic sediment, not chert. Lenticular gaps would collapse during burial by subsequent sediment. - Erase? 

      Regarding the similarities, we see similar lenticular gaps within the parallel layers of organic carbon in both microfossils, and structures formed by EM-P.

      S76: A, C, D do not look similar to B - erase? Similar to S79, also with respect to the differences in scale. Erase? 

      Regarding the similarities, we see similar lenticular gaps within the parallel layers of organic carbon in both microfossils, and structures formed by EM-P. We believe we addressed the issue of scale bars above. 

      S80: A appears to be diagenetic, not primary. Erase? 

      These two structures share too many resemblances to ignore or discount just as diagenic structures - Raised filamentous structures originate out of parallel layers of organic carbon (laminations), with spherical cells within this filamentous organic carbon.  

      S85: What role would diagenesis play here? This figure appears unconvincing. Erase?

      We do believe that diagenesis plays a major role in microfossil preservation. However, we also do not suscribe to the notion that we should by default assign diagenesis to all microfossil features. Our study shows that there could be an alternate explanation to some of the observations.  

      S86 and S87: These appear unconvincing. What is to see here? Erase? 

      The morphological similarities between these two structures. Stellarshaped organic structures with strings of spherical daughter cells growing out of them.  

      S88: Does this image suggest the preservation of "salt" in organic material once preserved in chert?  

      That is one inference we conclude from this observation. Crystaline NaCl was previously reported from within the microfossil cells.    

      S89: What is to see here? Spherical phenomena in different materials? 

      At present, the presence of honeycomb-like structures is often considered to have been an indication of volcanic pumice. We meant to show that biofilms of living organisms could result in honeycomb-shaped patterns similar to volcanic pumice.

      References 

      Please check the spelling in the references. 

      We found a few references that required corrention. We now rectified them. 

      References  

      (1) Orange F, Westall F, Disnar JR, Prieur D, Bienvenu N, Le Romancer M, et al. Experimental silicification of the extremophilic archaea pyrococcus abyssi and methanocaldococcus jannaschii: Applications in the search for evidence of life in early earth and extraterrestrial rocks. Geobiology. 2009;7(4). 

      (2) Orange F, Disnar JR, Westall F, Prieur D, Baillif P. Metal cation binding by the hyperthermophilic microorganism, Archaea Methanocaldococcus Jannaschii, and its effects on silicification. Palaeontology. 2011;54(5). 

      (3) Errington J. L-form bacteria, cell walls and the origins of life. Open Biol. 2013;3(1):120143. 

      (4) Cooper S. Distinguishing between linear and exponential cell growth during the division cycle: Single-cell studies, cell-culture studies, and the object of cell-cycle research. Theor Biol Med Model. 2006; 

      (5) Mitchison JM. Single cell studies of the cell cycle and some models. Theor Biol Med Model. 2005; 

      (6) Kærn M, Elston TC, Blake WJ, Collins JJ. Stochasticity in gene expression: From theories to phenotypes. Nat Rev Genet. 2005; 

      (7) Elowitz MB, Levine AJ, Siggia ED, Swain PS. Stochastic gene expression in a single cell. Science. 2002; 

      (8) Strovas TJ, Sauter LM, Guo X, Lidstrom ME. Cell-to-cell heterogeneity in growth rate and gene expression in Methylobacterium extorquens AM1. J Bacteriol. 2007; 

      (9) Knoll AH, Barghoorn ES. Archean microfossils showing cell division from the Swaziland System of South Africa. Science. 1977;198(4315):396–8. 

      (10) Sugitani K, Grey K, Allwood A, Nagaoka T, Mimura K, Minami M, et al. Diverse microstructures from Archaean chert from the Mount Goldsworthy–Mount Grant area, Pilbara Craton, Western Australia: microfossils, dubiofossils, or pseudofossils? Precambrian Res. 2007;158(3–4):228–62. 

      (11) Kanaparthi D, Lampe M, Krohn JH, Zhu B, Hildebrand F, Boesen T, et al. The reproduction process of Gram-positive protocells. Sci Rep. 2024 Mar 25;14(1):7075.

    1. Author response:

      We genuinely appreciate the reviewer critiques of our submitted paper, “Otoacoustic emissions but not behavioral measurements predict cochlear-nerve frequency tuning in an avian vocal-communication specialist.” We are planning a number of changes based on the reviewers’ helpful comments that we feel will substantially improve the manuscript and clarify its implications.

      We will add more support for the claim that budgerigars show unusual patterns of behavioral frequency tuning compared to other species. The original manuscript relied on previously published studies of budgerigar critical bands and psychophysical tuning curve to make this point (e.g., Fig. 1). Critical bands and psychophysical tuning curves have unfortunately not been studied in many bird species. Consequently, it was somewhat unclear (based on the information originally presented) whether the “unusual” behavioral tuning results shown in Fig. 1 reflect a hearing specialization in budgerigars or perhaps simply a general avian pattern attributable to declining audibility above 3-4 kHz (a point raised by both reviewers). Fortunately, behavioral critical-ratio results are available from a broader range of species. Albeit a less direct correlate of tuning, the results clearly highlight the unique hearing abilities of budgerigars in relation to other bird species as elaborated upon below.

      The critical ratio is the threshold signal-to-noise ratio for tone detection in wideband noise and partly depends on peripheral tuning bandwidth. Critical ratios have been studied in over a dozen bird species, the vast majority of which show similar thresholds to one another and monotonically increasing critical ratios for higher frequencies (by 2-3 dB/octave, similar to most mammals; reviewed by Dooling et al., 2000). By contrast, budgerigar critical ratios diverge markedly from other species at mid-to-high frequencies, with ~8 dB lower (more sensitive) thresholds from 3-4 kHz (Dooling & Saunders, 1975; Okanoya & Dooling, 1987; Farabaugh 1988; see Figs 5 & 6 in Okanoya & Dooling, 1987). The unusual critical-ratio function in budgerigars is not attributable to the audiogram and was hypothesized by Okanoya and Dooling (1987) to reflect specialized cochlear tuning or perhaps central processing mechanisms. A brief discussion of these studies will be added to the introduction, along with a new figure panel (for Fig. 1) illustrating these intriguing species differences in critical ratios.

      Another question was raised as to whether the simultaneous-masking paradigms and classic methods used to estimate behavioral tuning in budgerigars should be considered as valid, given newer forward-masking and notched-noise alternatives. We will expand the discussion of this issue in the revised manuscript. First, many of the methods from the classic budgerigar studies remain widely used in animal behavioral research (e.g., critical bands and ratios: Yost & Shofner, 2009; King et al., 2015; simultaneous masking: Burton et al., 2018). We therefore believe that it remains highly relevant to test and report whether these methods can accurately predict cochlear tuning. While forward-masking behavioral results are hypothesized to more accurately predict cochlear tuning humans (Shera et al., 2002; Joris et al., 2011; Sumner et al., 2018), evidence from nonhumans is controversial, with one study showing a closer match of forward-masking results to auditory-nerve tuning (ferret: Sumner et al., 2018), but several others showing a close match for simultaneous masking results (e.g., guinea pig, chinchilla, macaque; reviewed by Ruggero & Temchin, 2005; see Joris et al., 2011 for macaque auditory-nerve tuning). Moreover, forward- and simultaneous-masking results can often be equated with a simple scaling factor (e.g., Sumner et al., 2018). Given no real consensus on an optimal behavioral method, and seemingly limited potential for the “wrong” method to fundamentally transform the shape of the behavioral tuning quality function, it seems reasonable to accept previously published behavioral tuning estimates as essentially valid while also discussing limitations and remaining open to alternative interpretations.

      We will add clarification throughout the revision as to the specific behavioral measures used to quantify tuning in budgerigars (i.e., critical bands, psychophysical tuning curve, and critical ratios). This avoids potentially disparaging alternative behavioral methods that have not been tested. That the budgerigar behavioral data are “old” seems not particularly relevant considering that the methods are still used in animal behavioral research as noted previously. Rather, it seems important to clarify the specific behavioral techniques used to estimate budgerigar’s frequency tuning in the revised paper.

      Finally, we plan to add discussion of the apical-basal transition from the mammalian otoacoustic-emission literature, as suggested by reviewer 1, including how this concept might apply in budgerigars and other birds.

      References not already cited in the preprint:

      Burton JA, Dylla ME, Ramachandran R. Frequency selectivity in macaque monkeys measured using a notched-noise method. Hear Res. 2018 Jan;357:73-80. doi: 10.1016/j.heares.2017.11.012.

      King J, Insanally M, Jin M, Martins AR, D'amour JA, Froemke RC. Rodent auditory perception: Critical band limitations and plasticity. Neuroscience. 2015 Jun 18;296:55-65. doi: 10.1016/j.neuroscience.2015.03.053.

      Yost WA, Shofner WP. Critical bands and critical ratios in animal psychoacoustics: an example using chinchilla data. J Acoust Soc Am. 2009 Jan;125(1):315-23. doi: 10.1121/1.3037232. PMID: 19173418; PMCID: PMC2719489.

    1. Author response:

      (1) We do not know that the mechanism mediating the behavioral changes observed involves acetylcholine at all. (Reviewer 1)

      The reviewer rightly pointed out the co-release of acetylcholine (ACh) and GABA from cholinergic terminals. We believe that the detected behavioral changes are because of the augmentation of this innate mixed chemical signal. We agree that identifying the receptor specificity is an essential next step; however, addressing this point requires a currently unavailable research tool to block cholinergic receptors for a few hundred milliseconds. This temporal specificity is vital because acetylcholine is released in the medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC) on two distinct timescales, the slow release over tens of minutes from the task onset and the fast release time-locked to salient stimuli (TelesGrilo Ruivo et al., 2017). Moreover, the former slow signal is far more robust than the latter phasic signal. The pharmacological experiments suggested by the reviewer will suppress both the tonic and phasic signals, making it difficult to interpret the results. Given the rapid technological advancement in this field, we hope to investigate the underlying mechanisms in detail in the future. 

      (2) It is unclear whether mPFC cells are signaling predictions versus prediction errors. (Reviewer 2)

      As the reviewer pointed out, mPFC cells signal the prediction of imminent outcomes (Baeg et al., 2001; Mulder et al., 2003; Takehara-Nishiuchi and McNaughton, 2008; Kyriazi et al., 2020).

      However, the key difference between prediction signals and prediction error signals is their time course. The prediction signals begin to arise before the actual outcome occurs, whereas the prediction error signals are emitted after subjects experience the presence or absence of the expected outcome. In all our analyses, cell activity was normalized by the activity during the 1-second window before the threat site entry (i.e., the reveal of actual outcome; Lines 655-659). Also, all the statistical comparisons were made on the normalized activity during the 500-msec window, starting from the threat site entry (Lines 669670). Because this approach isolated the change in cell activity after the actual outcome, we interpret the data in Figure 4C as prediction error signals. 

      (3) The task does not fully dissociate place field coding. (Reviewer 2)

      The present analysis included several strategies to dissociate outcome selectivity from location selectivity (Figure 4). First, we collapsed cell activity on two threat sites to suppress the difference in cell activity between the sites. Second, our analysis compared how cell activity at the same location differed depending on whether outcomes were expected or surprising (Figure 4C). Nevertheless, we can use the present data to investigate the spatial tuning of mPFC cells. Indeed, an earlier version of this manuscript included some characterizations of spatial tuning. However, these data were deemed irrelevant and distracting when this manuscript was reviewed for publication in a different journal. As such, these data were removed from the current version. We are in the process of publishing another paper focusing on the spatial tuning of mPFC cells and their learning-dependent changes. 

      (4) The basic effects of cholinergic terminal stimulation on mPFC cell activity are unclear. (Reviewers 1, 3)

      We acknowledge the lack of characterization of the optogenetic manipulation of cholinergic terminals on mPFC cell activity outside the task context. As outlined in the discussion section (Lines 309-321), cholinergic modulation of mPFC cell activity is highly complex and most likely varies depending on behavioral states. In addition, because we intended to augment naturally occurring threatevoked cholinergic terminal responses (Tu et al., 2022), our optogenetic stimulation parameters were 3-5 times weaker than those used to evoke behavioral changes solely by the optogenetic stimulation of cholinergic terminals (Gritton et al., 2016). Based on these points, we validated the optogenetic stimulation based on its effects on air-puff-evoked cell activity during the task (Figure 2C, 2D). 

      (5) Some choices of statistical analyses are questionable (Reviewers 1, 3)

      We used the Kolmogorov-Smirnov (KS) test to investigate whether the distribution of cell responses differed between the two groups (Figure 2D) or changed with learning (Figure 3Ac, 3Bc). As seen in Figure 3Aa, some mPFC cells increased calcium activity in response to air-puffs, while others decreased. We expected that the manipulation or learning would alter these responses. If they are strengthened, the increased responses will become more positive, while the decreased responses will become more negative. If they are weakened, both responses will become closer to 0. Under such conditions, the shape of the distribution of cell response will change but not the median. The KS test can detect this, but not other tests sensitive to the difference in medians, such as Wilcoxon rank-sum tests. In Figure 2D, KS tests were applied to the independently sampled data from the control and ChrimsonRexpressing mice. In Figure 3Ac and 3Bc, we used all cells imaged in the first and fifth sessions. Considering that ~50% of them were longitudinally registered on both days, we acknowledge the violation in the assumption of independent sampling. In Figure 1D, we detected significant interaction between the group and sessions. Several approaches are appropriate to demonstrate the source of this interaction. We chose to conduct one-way ANOVA separately in each group to demonstrate the significant change in % adaptive choice across the sessions in the control group but not the ChrimsonR group. The cutoff for significance was adjusted with the Bonferroni correction in follow-up paired t-tests used in Figure 1F.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This manuscript presents an interesting exploration of the potential activation mechanisms of DLK following axonal injury. While the experiments are beautifully conducted and the data are solid, I feel that there is insufficient evidence to fully support the conclusions made by the authors.

      In this manuscript, the authors exclusively use the puc-lacZ reporter to determine the activation of DLK. This reporter has been shown to be induced when DLK is activated. However, there is insufficient evidence to confirm that the absence of reporter activation necessarily indicates that DLK is inactive. As with many MAP kinase pathways, the DLK pathway can be locally or globally activated in neurons, and the level of DLK activation may depend on the strength of the stimulation. This reporter might only reflect strong DLK activation and may not be turned on if DLK is weakly activated. The results presented in this manuscript support this interpretation. Strong stimulation, such as axotomy of all synaptic branches, caused robust DLK activation, as indicated by puc-lacZ expression. In contrast, weak stimulation, such as axotomy of some synaptic branches, resulted in weaker DLK activation, which did not induce the puc-lacZ reporter. This suggests that the strength of DLK activation depends on the severity of the injury rather than the presence of intact synapses. Given that this is a central conclusion of the study, it may be worthwhile to confirm this further. Alternatively, the authors may consider refining their conclusion to better align with the evidence presented.

      We wish to further clarify a striking aspect of puc-lacZ induction following injury: it is bimodal. It is either induced (in various injuries that remove all synaptic boutons), or not induced, including in injuries that spared only 1-2 remaining boutons. This was particularly evident for injuries that spared the NMJ on muscle 29, which is comprised of only a few boutons. In some instances, only a single bouton was evident on muscle 29. While our injuries varied enormously in the number of branches and boutons that were lost, we did not see a comparable variability in puc-lacZ induction.  In the revision we will include additional images to better demonstrate this observation.

      The reviewer (and others) fairly point out that our current study focuses on puc-lacZ as a reporter of Wnd signaling in the cell body. We consider this to be a downstream integration of events in axons that are more challenging to detect. It is striking that this integration appears strongly sensitized to the presence of spared synaptic boutons. Examination of Wnd’s activation in axons and synapses is a goal for our future work.

      As noted by the authors, DLK has been implicated in both axon regeneration and degeneration. Following axotomy, DLK activation can lead to the degeneration of distal axons, where synapses are located. This raises an important question: how is DLK activated in distal axons? The authors might consider discussing the significance of this "synapse connection-dependent" DLK activation in the broader context of DLK function and activation mechanisms.

      While it has been noted that inhibition of DLK can mildly delay Wallerian degeneration (Miller et al., 2009), this does not appear to be the case for retinal ganglion cell axons following optic nerve crush (Fernandes et al., 2014). It is also not the case for Drosophila motoneurons and NMJ terminals following peripheral nerve injury (Xiong et al., 2012; Xiong and Collins, 2012). Instead, overexpression of Wnd or activation of Wnd by a conditioning injury leads to an opposite phenotype - an increase in resiliency to Wallerian degeneration for axons that have been previously injured (Xiong et al., 2012; Xiong and Collins, 2012). The downstream outcome of Wnd activation is highly dependent on the context; it may be an integration of the outcomes of local Wnd/DLK activation in axons with downstream consequences of nuclear/cell body signaling.  The current study suggests some rules for the cell body signaling, however, how Wnd is regulated at synapses and why it promotes degeneration in some circumstances but not others are important future questions.

      For the reviewer’s suggestion, it is interesting to consider DLK’s potential contributions to the loss of NMJ synapses in a mouse model of ALS (Le Pichon et al., 2017; Wlaschin et al., 2023). Our findings suggest that the synaptic terminal is an important locus of DLK regulation, while dysfunction of NMJ terminals is an important feature of the ‘dying back’ hypothesis of disease etiology (Dadon-Nachum et al., 2011; Verma et al., 2022). We propose that the regulation of DLK at synaptic terminals is an important area for future study, and may reveal how DLK might be modulated to curtail disease progression. Of note, DLK inhibitors are in clinical trials (Katz et al., 2022; Le et al., 2023; Siu et al., 2018), but at least some have been paused due to safety concerns (Katz et al., 2022). Further understanding of the mechanisms that regulate DLK are needed to understand whether and how DLK and its downstream signaling can be tuned for therapeutic benefit.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors study a panel of sparsely labeled neuronal lines in Drosophila that each form multiple synapses. Critically, each axonal branch can be injured without affecting the others, allowing the authors to differentiate between injuries that affect all axonal branches versus those that do not, creating spared branches. Axonal injuries are known to cause Wnd (mammalian DLK)-dependent retrograde signals to the cell body, culminating in a transcriptional response. This work identifies a fascinating new phenomenon that this injury response is not all-or-none. If even a single branch remains uninjured, the injury signal is not activated in the cell body. The authors rule out that this could be due to changes in the abundance of Wnd (perhaps if incrementally activated at each injured branch) by Wnd, Hiw's known negative regulator. Thus there is both a yet-undiscovered mechanism to regulate Wnd signaling, and more broadly a mechanism by which the neuron can integrate the degree of injury it has sustained. It will now be important to tease apart the mechanism(s) of this fascinating phenomenon. But even absent a clear mechanism, this is a new biology that will inform the interpretation of injury signaling studies across species.

      Strengths:

      (1) A conceptually beautiful series of experiments that reveal a fascinating new phenomenon is described, with clear implications (as the authors discuss in their Discussion) for injury signaling in mammals.

      (2) Suggests a new mode of Wnd regulation, independent of Hiw.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The use of a somatic transcriptional reporter for Wnd activity is powerful, however, the reporter indicates whether the transcriptional response was activated, not whether the injury signal was received. It remains possible that Wnd is still activated in the case of a spared branch, but that this activation is either local within the axons (impossible to determine in the absence of a local reporter) or that the retrograde signal was indeed generated but it was somehow insufficient to activate transcription when it entered the cell body. This is more of a mechanistic detail and should not detract from the overall importance of the study

      We agree. The puc-lacZ reporter tells us about signaling in the cell body, but whether and how Wnd is regulated in axons and synaptic branches, which we think occurs upstream of the cell body response, remains to be addressed in future studies.

      (2) That the protective effect of a spared branch is independent of Hiw, the known negative regulator of Wnd, is fascinating. But this leaves open a key question: what is the signal?

      This is indeed an important future question, and would still be a question even if Hiw were part of the protective mechanism by the spared synaptic branch. Our current hypothesis (outlined in Figure 4) is that regulation of Wnd is tied to the retrograde trafficking of a signaling organelle in axons. The Hiw-independent regulation complements other observations in the literature that multiple pathways regulate Wnd/DLK (Collins et al., 2006; Feoktistov and Herman, 2016; Klinedinst et al., 2013; Li et al., 2017; Russo and DiAntonio, 2019; Valakh et al., 2013). It is logical for this critical stress response pathway to have multiple modes of regulation that may act in parallel to tune and restrain its activation.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript seeks to understand how nerve injury-induced signaling to the nucleus is influenced, and it establishes a new location where these principles can be studied. By identifying and mapping specific bifurcated neuronal innervations in the Drosophila larvae, and using laser axotomy to localize the injury, the authors find that sparing a branch of a complex muscular innervation is enough to impair Wallenda-puc (analogous to DLK-JNK-cJun) signaling that is known to promote regeneration. It is only when all connections to the target are disconnected that cJun-transcriptional activation occurs.

      Overall, this is a thorough and well-performed investigation of the mechanism of spared-branch influence on axon injury signaling. The findings on control of wnd are important because this is a very widely used injury signaling pathway across species and injury models. The authors present detailed and carefully executed experiments to support their conclusions. Their effort to identify the control mechanism is admirable and will be of aid to the field as they continue to try to understand how to promote better regeneration of axons.

      Strengths:

      The paper does a very comprehensive job of investigating this phenomenon at multiple locations and through both pinpoint laser injury as well as larger crush models. They identify a non-hiw based restraint mechanism of the wnd-puc signaling axis that presumably originates from the spared terminal. They also present a large list of tests they performed to identify the actual restraint mechanism from the spared branch, which has ruled out many of the most likely explanations. This is an extremely important set of information to report, to guide future investigators in this and other model organisms on mechanisms by which regeneration signaling is controlled (or not).

      Weaknesses:

      The weakest data presented by this manuscript is the study of the actual amounts of Wallenda protein in the axon. The authors argue that increased Wnd protein is being anterogradely delivered from the soma, but no support for this is given. Whether this change is due to transcription/translation, protein stability, transport, or other means is not investigated in this work. However, because this point is not central to the arguments in the paper, it is only a minor critique.

      We agree and are glad that the reviewer considers this a minor critique; this is an area for future study. In Supplemental Figure 1 we present differences in the levels of an ectopically expressed GFP-Wnd-kinase-dead transgene, which is strikingly increased in axons that have received a full but not partial axotomy. We suspect this accumulation occurs downstream of the cell body response because of the timing. We observed the accumulations after 24 hours (Figure S1F) but not at early (1-4 hour) time points following axotomy (data not shown). Further study of the local regulation of Wnd protein and its kinase activity in axons is an important future direction.

      As far as the scope of impact: because the conclusions of the paper are focused on a single (albeit well-validated) reporter in different types of motor neurons, it is hard to determine whether the mechanism of spared branch inhibition of regeneration requires wnd-puc (DLK/cJun) signaling in all contexts (for example, sensory axons or interneurons). Is the nerve-muscle connection the rule or the exception in terms of regeneration program activation?

      DLK signaling is strongly activated in DRG sensory neurons following peripheral nerve injury (Shin et al., 2012), despite the fact that sensory neurons have bifurcated axons and their projections in the dorsal spinal cord are not directly damaged by injuries to the peripheral nerve. Therefore it is unlikely that protection by a spared synapse is a universal rule for all neuron types. However the molecular mechanisms that underlie this regulation may indeed be shared across different types of neurons but utilized in different ways. For instance, nerve growth factor withdrawal can lead to activation of DLK (Ghosh et al., 2011), however neurotrophins and their receptors are regulated and implemented differently in different cell types. We suspect that the restraint of Wnd signaling by the spared synaptic branch shares a common underlying mechanism with the restraint of DLK signaling by neurotrophin signaling. Further elucidation of the molecular mechanism is an important next step towards addressing this question.

      Because changes in puc-lacZ intensity are the major readout, it would be helpful to better explain the significance of the amount of puc-lacZ in the nucleus with respect to the activation of regeneration. Is it known that scaling up the amount of puc-lacZ transcription scales functional responses (regeneration or others)? The alternative would be that only a small amount of puc-lacZ is sufficient to efficiently induce relevant pathways (threshold response).

      While induction of puc-lacZ expression correlates with Wnd-mediated phenotypes, including sprouting of injured axons (Xiong et al., 2010), protection from Wallerian degeneration (Xiong et al., 2012; Xiong and Collins, 2012) and synaptic overgrowth (Collins et al., 2006), we have not observed any correlation between the degree of puc-lacZ induction (eg modest, medium or high) and the phenotypic outcomes (sprouting, overgrowth, etc). Rather, there appears to be a striking all-or-none difference in whether puc-lacZ is induced or not induced. There may indeed be a threshold that can be restrained through multiple mechanisms. We posit in figure 4 that restraint may take place in the cell body, where it can be influenced by the spared bifurcation.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer 1:

      We thank the reviewer for their comments and suggestions. We have made several edits to the paper to address these comments, including the addition of several new control experiments, corrections to mislabeled figures in Fig 2, and other additions to improve the clarity of several figures.

      This work is missing several controls that are necessary to substantiate their claims. My most important concern is that the optogenetic screen for neurons that alter pathogenic lawn occupancy does not have an accompanying control on non-pathogenic OP50 bacteria. Hence, it remains unclear whether these neuronal inhibition experiments lead to pathogen-specific or generalized lawn-leaving alterations. For strains that show statistical differences between - and + ATR conditions, the authors should perform follow-up validation experiments on non-pathogenic OP50 lawns to ensure that the observed effect is PA14-specific. Similarly, neuronal inhibition experiments in Figures 5E and H are only performed with naïve animals on PA14 - we need to see the latency to re-entry on OP50 as well, to make general conclusions about these neurons' role in pathogen-specific avoidance.

      We have added data from new control experiments to Fig. S1 (subfigures B, C) for both exit and re-entry dynamics on OP50. We find that inhibition of neurons produces different effects on both lawn entry and exit on PA14 compared to OP50. We observed that inhibition of neurons failed to change the re-entry dynamics for any of the lines which showed delayed latency to re-entry on PA14. Our results suggest that the neural control of re-entry dynamics we see are PA14 specific.

      My second major concern is regarding the calcium imaging experiments of candidate neurons involved in lawn re-entry behavior. Although the data shows that AIY, AVK, and SIA/SIB neurons all show reduced activity following pathogen exposure, the authors do not relate these activity changes to changes in behavior. Given the well-established links between these cells and forward locomotion, it is essential to not only report differences in activity but also in the relationship between this activity and locomotory behavior. If animals are paused outside of the pathogen lawn, these neurons may show low activity simply because the animals are not moving forward. Other forward-modulated neurons may also show this pattern of reduced activity if the animals remain paused. Given that the authors have recorded neural activity before and after contact with pathogenic bacteria in freely moving animals, they should also provide an analysis of the relationship between proximity to the lawn and the activity of these neurons.

      In response, we added an additional supplementary figure S7 to illustrate the role of each neuron in navigational control and added text to the discussion to better explain the role of each neuron type in the regulation of re-entry, in light of our previously published work on SIA in speed control.

      This work is missing methodological descriptions that are necessary for the correct interpretation of the results shown here. Figure 2 suggests that the determination of statistical significance across the optogenetic inhibition screen will be found in the Methods, but this information is not to be found there. At various points in the text, authors refer to "exit rate", "rate constant", and "entry rate". These metrics seem derived from an averaged measurement across many individual animals in one lawn evacuation assay plate. However "latency to re-entry" is only defined on a per-animal basis in the lawn re-exposure assay. These differences should be clearly stated in the methods section to avoid confusion and to ensure that statistics are computed correctly.

      Additional details have been added to the methods section to provide more in depth information on the statistical analysis performed. In brief, the latency to re-entry is calculated in the same way across all assays – re-entry events across replicate experiments for a given experimental condition are aggregated together and used to calculate relevant statistics.

      This work also contains mislabeled graphs and incorrect correspondence with the text, which make it difficult to follow the authors 'claims. The text suggests that Pdop-2::Arch3 and Pmpz-1::Arch3 show increased exit rates, whereas Figure 2 shows that Pflp-4::Arch3 but not Pmpz-1::Arch3 has increased exit rate. The authors should also make a greater effort to correctly and clearly label which type of behavioral experiment is used to generate each figure and describe the differences in experimental design in the main text, figure legends, and methods. Figure 2E depicts trajectories of animals leaving a lawn over a 2.5-minute interval but it is unclear when this time window occurs within the 18-hour lawn leaving assay. Likewise, Figure 2H depicts a 30-minute time window which has an unclear relationship to the overall time course of lawn leaving. This figure legend is also mislabeled as "Infected/Healthy", whereas it should be labeled "-/+ ATR".

      In Figures 2C and F, the x-axis labels are in a different order, making it difficult to compare between the 2 plots. Promoter names should be italicized. What does the red ring mean in Figure 2A? Figure 2 legend incorrectly states that four lines showed statistically significant changes for the Exist rate constant - only 2 lines are significant according to the figure.

      We thank the reviewer for identifying this embarrassing error. Figure 2C and F were flipped, and we have corrected this, we are sorry for the error. Promoter names have been italicized, and we have added additional text in the captions that the red ring is a ring light for background illumination of the worms. In addition, we have corrected the error in the figure legends from “Infected/Healthy” to “+/- ATR”.

      Lines in figure 2C and 2F are ordered by significance rather than keeping the same order in both. Majority feedback from colleagues suggested that this ordering was preferred.

      This work raises the interesting possibility that different sets of neurons control lawn exit and lawn re-entry behaviors following pathogen exposure. However, the authors never directly test this claim. To rigorously show this, the authors would need to show that lawn-exit-promoting neurons (CEPs, HSNs, RIAs, RIDs, SIAs) are dispensable for lawn re-entry behavior and that lawn re-entry promoting neurons (AVK, SIA, AIY, MI) are dispensable for lawn exit behavior in pathogen-exposed animals.

      We agree with the reviewer’s comments that there is insufficient evidence to show a complete decoupling of lawn exit and lawn re-entry. However, we note that our screen results show that only 1 line (dop-2) shows changes in both exit and re-entry dynamics upon neural inhibition (Fig. 2). This seems to suggest that at least some degree of neural control of re-entry is decoupled from exit.

      Please label graph axes with units in Figure 1 - instead of "Exit Rate" make it #exits per worm per hour, and make it more clear that Figures 1C and E have a different kind of assay than Figures 1A, B and D. There should be more consistency between the meaning of "pre/post" and "naive/infected/healthy" - and how many hours constitutes post.

      We have edited Figure 1 and made additions to the captions of figure 1 to make both points clearer. We have also standardized our language for subsequent figures (such as figure 5) to provide less ambiguity in pre/post and naïve/infected/healthy.

      Figure 5 - it should be made more clear when the stimulation/inhibition occurred in these experiments and how long they were recorded/analyzed.

      We have added additional details to the figure captions to make it clearer when the data was collected.

      Workspaces and code have been added under a data availability section in the manuscript.

      Reviewer 2:

      However, the paper's main weakness lies in its lack of a detailed mechanism explaining how the delayed reentry process directly influences the actual locomotor output that results in avoidance. The term 'delayed reentry' is used as a dynamic metric for quantifying the screening, yet the causal link between this metric and the mechanistic output remains unclear. Despite this, the study is well-structured, with comprehensive control experiments, and is very well constructed.

      We thank the reviewer for their comments and suggestions. We have added additional data and details to our work to cover these weaknesses, as can be seen in our responses to the suggestions below.

      (1) A key issue in the manuscript is the mechanistic link between the delayed process and locomotor output. AIY is identified as a crucial neuron in this process, but the specifics of how AIY influences this delay are not clear. For instance, does AIY decrease the reversal rate, causing animals to get into long-range search when they leave the bacterial lawn? Is there any relationship between pdf-2 expression and reversal rates? Given that AIY typically promotes long-range motion when activated, the suppression of this function and its implications on motion warrants further clarification.

      We have included additional data to explain how AIY might be able to regulate lawn entry behaviors and have added more to the discussion to explain how neural suppression might lead to changes in the behavior (new figure S7). Both AIY and SIA dynamics have been linked to worm navigation. In previous work (Lee 2019), we have demonstrated that SIA can control locomotory speed. Inhibition of SIA decreases locomotory speed, and as a result may serve to drive the increased latency of re-entry.

      AIY’s role in navigation has been previously established (Zhaoyu 2014), but we have added an additional supplementary figure and edited our discussion to further illustrate this point. As can be seen in the new figure S7, AIY neural activity undergoes a transition after removal from a bacterial lawn, going from low activity to high activity. This activity increase is correlated with a transition from a high reversal rate local search state to a long range search state characterized by longer runs. Inhibition of AIY during this long range search state increased the reversal rate resulting in a higher rate of re-orientations. This might serve as a part of the mechanistic explanation for AIY’s role in preventing lawn re-entry, as inhibition dramatically increased the rate of re-orientation, preventing worms from making directed runs into the bacterial lawn. However, there is an additional effect of the inhibition of AIY, not seen during food search. Inhibition of AIY in the context of a pathogenic bacterial lawn leads to stalling at the edge. Therefore, re-entry AIY could have an additional role in governing the animals movement, post exposure, upon contact with a pathogenic lawn.

      (2) I recommend including supplementary videos to visually demonstrate the process. These videos might help others identify aspects of the mechanism that are currently missing or unclear in the text.

      (4) The authors mention that the worms "left the lawn," but the images suggest that the worms do not stray far and remain around the perimeter. Providing videos could help clarify this observation and strengthen the argument by visually connecting these points

      Additional supplementary videos (1-3) taken at several stages of lawn evacuation have been added to visually demonstrate the process.

      (3) Regarding the control experiments (Figure 1E-G), the manuscript describes testing animals picked from a PA14-seeded plate and retesting them on different plates. It's crucial to clarify the differences between these plates. Specifically, the region just outside the lawn should be considered, as it is not empty and worms can spread bacteria around. Testing animals on a new plate with a pristine proximity region might introduce variables that affect their behavior.

      We have reworded the paper to make it clearer that these new conditions on a fresh PA14 lawn represent a different type of assay from the lawn evacuation assay. Fresh PA14 plates will indeed have a pristine proximity region compared to plates where the worms have spread the bacteria.

      These experiments were done to test if the evacuation effect is purely due to aversive signals left on the lawn or attractive signals left outside of the lawn. Given that worms are known to be able to leave compounds such as ascarosides to communicate with each other, we wanted to test that this lawn re-entry defect was not simply the result of deposited pheromones. Without any other method to remove such compounds, we relied on using fresh PA14 lawns instead to test this. We have updated the manuscript to clarify this point.

      (5) The manuscript notes that the PA14 strain was grown without shaking. Typically, growing this strain without agitation leads to biofilm formation. Clarifying whether there is a link between biofilm formation and avoidance behavior would add depth to the understanding of the experimental conditions and their impact on the observed behaviors.

      As the reviewer has noted, growth of PA14 without shaking might indeed lead to biofilm formation. This does represent a legitimate concern, as evidence from previous work has suggested that biofilm formation could be linked to pathogen avoidance as worms make use of mechanosensation to avoid pathogenic bacteria (Chang et al. 2011).  However, we do not observe substantial formation of biofilm in our cultured bacteria, likely since our growth time might be insufficient for sufficient biofilm formation to occur. We also note that our evacuation dynamics appear to be of similar timescale to results reported in previous work which used different growth conditions. As such, we believe that our growth conditions thus represent similar conditions as to those historically used in the lawn evacuation literature.

      Reviewer 3:

      Weaknesses:

      My only concern is that the authors should be more careful about describing their "compressed sensing-based approach". Authors often cite their previous Nature Methods paper, but should explain more because this method is critical for this manuscript. Also, this analysis is based on the hypothesis that only a small number of neurons are responsible for a given behavior. Authors should explain more about how to determine scarcity parameters, for example.

      We have added more details to our paper outlining some of the details involved in our compressed sensing approach. We go into more detail about how we chose sparsity parameters and note that our discovered neurons for re-entry appear to be robust over choice of sparsity parameters. These additional details can be found in both the paper body and the methods section.

      Line 45: This paragraph tries to mention that there should be "small sets of neurons" that can play key roles in integrating previous information to influence subsequent behavior. Is it valid as an assumption in the nervous systems?

      We want to clarify that what is important is not that there are ‘small sets of neurons’, but rather that these key neurons make up a small fraction of the total number of neurons in the nervous system. More correctly: the compressed sensing approach identifies information bottlenecks in the neural circuits, and the assumption is that the number of neurons in these bottlenecks are small. This is the underlying sparsity assumption being made here that allows us to utilize a compressed sensing based approach to identify these neurons. We have reworded this section to make it clear that what is important is not that the total number of neurons is small, but that they must be a small fraction of the total number of neurons in the nervous system.

      Line 125: "These approaches…" Authors repeatedly mentioned this statement to emphasize that their compressed sensing-based approach is the best choice. Are you really sure?

      We agree that there are several approaches that might allow for faster screening of the nervous system. For example, many studies approach the problem by looking at neurons with synapses onto a neuron already known to be implicated in the behavior or find neurons that express a key gene known to regulate the behavior of interest. These approaches utilize prior information to greatly reduce the pool of candidate neurons needed to be screened.

      In the absence of such prior information, we believe that our compressed sensing based approach allows a rapid way to perform an unbiased interrogation of the entire nervous system to identify key neurons at bottlenecks of neural circuits. Once these key neurons are identified, neurons upstream and downstream of these key neurons can be investigated in the future.  This approach gives us the added advantage of being able to identify neurons that do not connect to neurons that are already implicated in the behavior, or that don’t have clear genetic signatures in the behavior of interest. Our approach further allows for screening of neurons with no clear single genetic marker without the next to utilize intersectional genetic strategies.  We should not use the phrase “best choice” which might not be justified. We have reworded these statements, and we believe that compressed sensing based methods provide a complementary approach to those in the literature.

      Line 42: If authors refer to mushroom bodies and human hippocampus in relation to the significance of their work, authors should go back to these references in the Discussion and explain how their work is important.

      We thank the reviewer for this feedback, and we have added to our discussion to expand upon these points.

      Line 151: "the accelerated pathogen avoidance" Accelerated pathogen avoidance does not necessarily indicate the existence of the neural mechanism that inhibits the association of pathogenicity with microbe-specific cues (during early stages: first two hours).

      We agree with the reviewer’s statements that these results alone do not indicate the presence of an early avoidance mechanism. Other evidence for early avoidance mechanisms exists as seen in two choice assay experiments (Zhang 2005), and our results do seem to support this. However, we agree that early neural inhibition is insufficient evidence towards such a mechanism. We have thus removed this statement for accuracy.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript by Lopez-Blanch and colleagues, 21 microexons are selected for a deep analysis of their impacts on behavior, development, and gene expression. The authors begin with a systematic analysis of microexon inclusion and conservation in zebrafish and use these data to select 21 microexons for further study. The behavioral, transcriptomic, and morphological data presented are for the most part convincing. Furthermore, the discussion of the potential explanations for the subtle impacts of individual microexon deletions versus loss-of-function in srrm3 and/or srrm4 is quite comprehensive and thoughtful. One major weakness: data presentation, methods, and jargon at times affect readability / might lead to overstated conclusions. However, overall this manuscript is well-written, easy to follow, and the results are of broad interest.

      We thank the Reviewer for their positive comments on our manuscript. In the revised version, we will try to improve readability, reduce jargon and avoid overstatements. 

      Strengths:

      (1) The study uses a wide variety of techniques to assess the impacts of microexon deletion, ranging from assays of protein function to regulation of behavior and development.

      (2) The authors provide comprehensive analyses of the molecular impact of their microexon deletions, including examining how host-gene and paralog expression is affected.

      Weaknesses / Major Points:

      (1) According to the methods, it seems that srrm3 social behavior is tested by pairing a 3mpf srrm3 mutant with a 30dpf srrm3 het. Is this correct? The methods seem to indicate that this decision was made to account for a slower growth rate of homozygous srrm3 mutant fish. However, the difference in age is potentially a major confound that could impact the way that srrm3 mutants interact with hets and the way that srrm3 mutants interact with one another (lower spread for the ratio of neighbour in front value, higher distance to neighbour value). This reviewer suggests testing het-het behavior at 3 months to provide age-matched comparisons for del-del, testing age-matched rather than size-matched het-del behavior, and also suggests mentioning this in the main text / within the figure itself so that readers are aware of the potential confound.

      Thank you for bringing up this point. For the tests shown in Figure 5, we indeed decided to match the srrm3 pairs by fish size since we thought this would be more comparable to the other lines both biologically and methodologically (in terms of video tracking, etc.). However, we are confident the results would be very similar if matched by age, since the differences in social interactions between the srrm3 homozygous mutants and their control siblings are very dramatic at any age. For example, this can be appreciated, in line with the Reviewer's suggestion, in Videos S2 and S3, which show groups of five 5 mpf fish that are either srrm3 mutants or controls. It can be observed that the behavior of 5 mpf control fish is very similar to those of 1 mpf fish pairs, with very small interindividual distances. We will nonetheless agree that this decision on the experimental design should be clearly stated in the text and figure legend and we will do so in the revised version.

      (2) Referring to srrm3+/+; srrm4-/- controls for double mutant behavior as "WT for simplicity" is somewhat misleading. Why do the authors not refer to these as srrm4 single mutants?

      We thought it made the interpretation of plots easier, but we will change this in the revised version.

      (3) It's not completely clear how "neurally regulated" microexons are defined / how they are different from "neural microexons"? Are these terms interchangeable?

      Yes, they are interchangeable. We will double check the wording to avoid confusion.

      (4) Overexpression experiments driving srrm3 / srrm4 in HEK293 cells are not described in the methods.

      Apologies for this omission. We will briefly described the methods; however, please note that the data was obtained from a previous publication (Torres-Mendez et al, 2019), where the detailed methodology is reported.

      (5) Suggest including more information on how neurite length was calculated. In representative images, it appears difficult to determine which neurites arise from which soma, as they cross extensively. How was this addressed in the quantification?

      We will add further details to the revised version. With regards to the specific question, we would like to mention that this has not been a very common problem for the time points used in the manuscript (10 hap and 24 hap). At those stages, it was nearly always evident how to track each individual neurite. Dubious cases were simply discarded. Of course, such cases become much more common at later time points (48 and 72 hap), not sure in this study.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript explores in zebrafish the impact of genetic manipulation of individual microexons and two regulators of microexon inclusion (Srrm3 and Srrm4). The authors compare molecular, anatomical, and behavioral phenotypes in larvae and juvenile fish. The authors test the hypothesis that phenotypes resulting from Srrm3 and 4 mutations might in part be attributable to individual microexon deletions in target genes.

      The authors uncover substantial alterations in in vitro neurite growth, locomotion, and social behavior in Srrm mutants but not any of the individual microexon deletion mutants. The individual mutations are accompanied by broader transcript level changes which may resemble compensatory changes. Ultimately, the authors conclude that the severe Srrm3/4 phenotypes result from additive and/or synergistic effects due to the de-regulation of multiple microexons.

      Strengths:

      The work is carefully planned, well-described, and beautifully displayed in clear, intuitive figures. The overall scope is extensive with a large number of individual mutant strains examined. The analysis bridges from molecular to anatomical and behavioral read-outs. Analysis appears rigorous and most conclusions are well-supported by the data.

      Overall, addressing the function of microexons in an in vivo system is an important and timely question.

      Weaknesses:

      The main weakness of the work is the interpretation of the social behavior phenotypes in the Srrm mutants. It is difficult to conclude that the mutations indeed impact social behavior rather than sensory processing and/or vision which precipitates apparent social alterations as a secondary consequence. Interpreting the phenotypes as "autism-like" is not supported by the data presented.

      The Reviewer is absolutely right and we apologize for this omission, since it was not our intention to imply that these social defects should be interpreted simply as autistic-like. It is indeed very likely that the main reason for the social alterations displayed by the srrm3's mutants are due to their impaired vision. We will add this discussion explicitly in the revised version. 

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Microexons are highly conserved alternative splice variants, the individual functions of which have thus far remained mostly elusive. The inclusion of microexons in mature mRNAs increases during development, specifically in neural tissues, and is regulated by SRRM proteins. Investigation of individual microexon function is a vital avenue of research since microexon inclusion is disrupted in diseases like autism. This study provides one of the first rigorous screens (using zebrafish larvae) of the functions of individual microexons in neurodevelopment and behavioural control. The authors precisely excise 21 microexons from the genome of zebrafish using CRISPR-Cas9 and assay the downstream impacts on neurite outgrowth, larvae motility, and sociality. A small number of mild phenotypes were observed, which contrasts with the more dramatic phenotypes observed when microexon master regulators SRRM3/4 are disrupted. Importantly, this study attempts to address the reasons why mild/few phenotypes are observed and identify transcriptomic changes in microexon mutants that suggest potential compensatory gene regulatory mechanisms.

      Strengths:

      (1) The manuscript is well written with excellent presentation of the data in the figures.

      (2) The experimental design is rigorous and explained in sufficient detail.

      (3) The identification of a potential microexon compensatory mechanism by transcriptional alterations represents a valued attempt to begin to explain complex genetic interactions.

      (4) Overall this is a study with a robust experimental design that addresses a gap in knowledge of the role of microexons in neurodevelopment.

      Thank you very much for your positive comments to our manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      eLife Assessment

      This descriptive manuscript builds on prior research showing that the elimination of Origin Recognition Complex (ORC) subunits does not halt DNA replication. The authors use various methods to genetically remove one or two ORC subunits from specific tissues and observe continued replication, though it may be incomplete. The replication appears to be primarily endoreduplication, indicating that ORC-independent replication may promote genome reduplication without mitosis. Despite similar findings in previous studies, the paper provides convincing genetic evidence in mice that liver cells can replicate and undergo endoreduplication even with severely depleted ORC levels. While the mechanism behind this ORC-independent replication remains unclear, the study lays the groundwork for future research to explore how cells compensate for the absence of ORC and to develop functional approaches to investigate this process. The reviewers agree that this valuable paper would be strengthened significantly if the authors could delve a bit deeper into the nature of replication initiation, potentially using an origin mapping experiment. Such an exciting contribution would help explain the nature of the proposed new type of Mcm loading, thereby increasing the impact of this study for the field at large.<br />

      We appreciate the reviewers’ suggestion. Till now we know of only one paper that mapped origins of replication in regenerating mouse liver, and that was published two months back in Cell (PMID: 39293447).  We want to adopt this method, but we do not need it to answer the question asked.  We have mapped origins of replication in ORC-deleted cancer cell lines and compared to wild-type cells in Shibata et al., BioRXiv (PMID: 39554186) (it is under review).  We report the following:  Mapping of origins in cancer cell lines that are wild type or engineered to delete three of the subunits, ORC1, ORC2 or ORC5 shows that specific origins are still used and are mostly at the same sites in the genome as in wild type cells. Of the 30,197 origins in wild type cells (with ORC), only 2,466 (8%) are not used in any of the three ORC deleted cells and 18,319 (60%) are common between the four cell types. Despite the lack of ORC, excess MCM2-7 is still loaded at comparable rates in G1 phase to license reserve origins and is also repeatedly loaded in the same S phase to permit re-replication. 

      Citation: Specific origin selection and excess functional MCM2-7 loading in ORC-deficient cells. Yoshiyuki Shibata, Mihaela Peycheva, Etsuko Shibata, Daniel Malzl, Rushad Pavri, Anindya Dutta. bioRxiv 2024.10.30.621095; doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2024.10.30.621095 (PMID: 39554186)

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The origin recognition complex (ORC) is an essential loading factor for the replicative Mcm2-7 helicase complex. Despite ORC's critical role in DNA replication, there have been instances where the loss of specific ORC subunits has still seemingly supported DNA replication in cancer cells, endocycling hepatocytes, and Drosophila polyploid cells. Critically, all tested ORC subunits are essential for development and proliferation in normal cells. This presents a challenge, as conditional knockouts need to be generated, and a skeptic can always claim that there were limiting but sufficient ORC levels for helicase loading and replication in polyploid or transformed cells. That being said, the authors have consistently pushed the system to demonstrate replication in the absence or extreme depletion of ORC subunits.

      Here, the authors generate conditional ORC2 mutants to counter a potential argument with prior conditional ORC1 mutants that Cdc6 may substitute for ORC1 function based on homology. They also generate a double ORC1 and ORC2 mutant, which is still capable of DNA replication in polyploid hepatocytes. While this manuscript provides significantly more support for the ability of select cells to replicate in the absence or near absence of select ORC subunits, it does not shed light on a potential mechanism.

      The strengths of this manuscript are the mouse genetics and the generation of conditional alleles of ORC2 and the rigorous assessment of phenotypes resulting from limiting amounts of specific ORC subunits. It also builds on prior work with ORC1 to rule out Cdc6 complementing the loss of ORC1.

      The weakness is that it is a very hard task to resolve the fundamental question of how much ORC is enough for replication in cancer cells or hepatocytes. Clearly, there is a marked reduction in specific ORC subunits that is sufficient to impact replication during development and in fibroblasts, but the devil's advocate can always claim minimal levels of ORC remaining in these specialized cells.

      The significance of the work is that the authors keep improving their conditional alleles (and combining them), thus making it harder and harder (but not impossible) to invoke limiting but sufficient levels of ORC. This work lays the foundation for future functional screens to identify other factors that may modulate the response to the loss of ORC subunits.

      This work will be of interest to the DNA replication, polyploidy, and genome stability communities.

      Thank you.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This manuscript proposes that primary hepatocytes can replicate their DNA without the six-subunit ORC. This follows previous studies that examined mice that did not express ORC1 in the liver. In this study, the authors suppressed expression of ORC2 or ORC1 plus ORC2 in the liver.

      Comments:

      (1) I find the conclusion of the authors somewhat hard to accept. Biochemically, ORC without the ORC1 or ORC2 subunits cannot load the MCM helicase on DNA. The question arises whether the deletion in the ORC1 and ORC2 genes by Cre is not very tight, allowing some cells to replicate their DNA and allow the liver to develop, or whether the replication of DNA proceeds via non-canonical mechanisms, such as break-induced replication. The increase in the number of polyploid cells in the mice expressing Cre supports the first mechanism, because it is consistent with few cells retaining the capacity to replicate their DNA, at least for some time during development.

      In our study, we used EYFP as a marker for Cre recombinase activity. ~98% of the hepatocytes in tissue sections and cells in culture express EYFP, suggesting that the majority of hepatocytes successfully expressed the Cre protein to delete the ORC1 or ORC2 genes. To assess deletion efficiency, we employed sensitive genotyping and Western blotting techniques to confirm the deletion of ORC1 and ORC2 in hepatocytes isolated from Alb-Cre mice. Results in Fig. 2C and Fig. 6D demonstrate the near-complete absence of ORC2 and ORC1 proteins, respectively, in these hepatocytes.

      The mutant hepatocytes underwent at least 15–18 divisions during development. The inherited ORC1 or ORC2 protein present during the initial cell divisions, would be diluted to less than 1.5% of wild-type levels within six divisions, making it highly unlikely to support DNA replication, and yet we observe hepatocyte numbers that suggest there was robust cell division even after that point.

      Furthermore, the EdU incorporation data confirm DNA synthesis in the absence of ORC1 and ORC2. Specifically, immunofluorescence showed that both in vitro and in vivo, EYFP-positive hepatocytes (indicating successful ORC1 and ORC2 deletion) incorporated EdU, demonstrating that DNA synthesis can occur without ORC1 and ORC2.

      Finally, the Alb-ORC2f/f mice have 25-37.5% of the number of hepatocyte nuclei compared to WT mice (Table 2).  If that many cells had an undeleted ORC2 gene, that would have shown up in the genotyping PCR and in the Western blots.

      (2) Fig 1H shows that 5 days post infection, there is no visible expression of ORC2 in MEFs with the ORC2 flox allele. However, at 15 days post infection, some ORC2 is visible. The authors suggest that a small number of cells that retained expression of ORC2 were selected over the cells not expressing ORC2. Could a similar scenario also happen in vivo?

      This would not explain the significant incorporation of EdU in hepatocytes that do not have detectable ORC by Western blots and that are EYFP positive.  Also note that for MEFs we are delivering the Cre by AAV infection in vitro, so there is a finite probability that a cell will not receive Cre and will not delete ORC2.  However, in vivo, the Alb-Cre will be expressed in every cell that turns on albumin.  There is no escaping the expression of Cre.

      (3) Figs 2E-G shows decreased body weight, decreased liver weight and decreased liver to body weight in mice with recombination of the ORC2 flox allele. This means that DNA replication is compromised in the ALB-ORC2f/f mice.

      It is possible that DNA replication is partially compromised or may slow down in the absence of ORC2. However, it is important to emphasize that livers with ORC2 deletion remain capable of DNA replication, so much so that liver function and life span are near normal. Therefore, some kind of DNA replication has to serve as a compensatory mechanism in the absence of ORC2 to maintain liver function and support regeneration.

      (4) Figs 2I-K do not report the number of hepatocytes, but the percent of hepatocytes with different nuclear sizes. I suspect that the number of hepatocytes is lower in the ALB-ORC2f/f mice than in the ORC2f/f mice. Can the authors report the actual numbers?

      We show in Table 2 that the Alb-Orc2f/f mice have about 25-37.5% of the hepatocytes compared to the WT mice.

      (5) Figs 3B-G do not report the number of nuclei, but percentages, which are plotted separately for the ORC2-f/f and ALB-ORC2-f/f mice. Can the authors report the actual numbers?

      In all the FACS experiments in Fig. 3B-G we collect data for a total of 10,000 nuclei (or cells).  For Fig. 3E-G we divide the 10,000 nuclei into the bottom 40% on the EYFP axis (EYFP low, which is mostly EYFP negative) as the control group, and EYFP high (top 20% on the EYFP axis) test group.  We will mention this in the revision and label EYFP negative and positive as EYFP low and high.

      (6) Fig 5 shows the response of ORC2f/f and ALB-ORC2f/f mice after partial hepatectomy. The percent of EdU+ nuclei in the ORC2-f/f (aka ALB-CRE-/-) mice in Fig 5H seems low. Based on other publications in the field it should be about 20-30%. Why is it so low here? The very low nuclear density in the ALB-ORC2-f/f mice (Fig 5F) and the large nuclei (Fig 5I) could indicate that cells fire too few origins, proceed through S phase very slowly and fail to divide.

      The percentage of EdU+ nuclei in the ORC2f/f without Alb-Cre mice is 8%, while in PMID 10623657, the 10% of wild type nuclei incorporate  EdU at 42 hr post partial hepatectomy (mid-point between the 36-48 hr post hepatectomy that was used in our study).  The important result here is that in the ORC2f/f mice with Alb-Cre (+/-) we are seeing significant EdU incorporation. We will also correct the X-axis labels in 5F, 5I, 7E and 7F to reflect that those measurements were not made at 36 hr post-resection but later (as was indicated in the schematic in Fig. 5A).

      (7) Fig 6F shows that ALB-ORC1f/f-ORC2f/f mice have very severe phenotypes in terms of body weight and liver weight (about on third of wild-type!!). Fig 6H and 6I, the actual numbers should be presented, not percentages. The fact that there are EYFP negative cells, implies that CRE was not expressed in all hepatocytes.

      The liver to body weight ratio is what one has to look at, and it is 70% of the WT.  In females the liver and body weight are low (although in proportion to each other), which maybe is what the reviewer is talking about.  However, the fact that liver weight and body weight are not as low in males, suggest that this is a gender (hormone?) specific effect and not a DNA replication defect.  We have another paper also in BioRXiv (Su et al.) that suggests that ORC subunits have significant effect on gene expression, so it is possible that that is what leads to this sexual dimorphism in phenotype.

      The bottom 40% of nuclei on the EYFP axis in the FACS profiles (what was labeled EYFP negative but will now be called EYFP low) contains mostly non-hepatocytes that are genuinely EYFP negative.   Non-hepatocytes (bile duct cells, endothelial cells, Kupffer cells, blood cells) are a significant part of cells in the dissociated liver (as can be seen in the single cell sequencing results in PMID: 32690901).  Their presence does not mean that hepatocytes are not expressing Cre.  Hepatocytes mostly are EYFP positive, as can be seen in the tissue sections (where the hepatocytes take up most of visual field) and in cells in culture.  Also if there are EYFP negative hepatocyte nuclei in the FACS, that still does not rule out EYFP presence in the cytoplasm.  The important point from the FACS is that the EYFP high nuclei (which have expressed Cre for the longest period) are polyploid relative to the EYFP low nuclei.

      (8) Comparing the EdU+ cells in Fig 7G versus 5G shows very different number of EdU+ cells in the control animals. This means that one of these images is not representative. The higher fraction of EdU+ cells in the double-knockout could mean that the hepatocytes in the double-knockout take longer to complete DNA replication than the control hepatocytes. The control hepatocytes may have already completed DNA replication, which can explain why the fraction of EdU+ cells is so low in the controls. The authors may need to study mice at earlier time points after partial hepatectomy, i.e. sacrifice the mice at 30-32 hours, instead of 40-52 hours.

      The apparent difference that the reviewer comments on stems from differences in nuclear density in the images in Fig. 7G and 5G (also quantitated in Fig. 7F and 5F).  The quantitation in Fig. 7H and 5H show that the % of EdU plus cells are comparable (5-8%). 

      (9) Regarding the calculation of the number of cell divisions during development: the authors assume that all the hepatocytes in the adult liver are derived from hepatoblasts that express Alb. Is it possible to exclude the possibility that pre-hepatoblast cells that do not express Alb give rise to hepatocytes? For example the cells that give rise to hepatoblasts may proliferate more times than normal giving rise to a higher number of hepatoblasts than in wild-type mice.

      Single cell sequencing of mouse liver at e11 shows hepatoblasts expressing hepatocyte specific markers (PMID: 32690901).  All the cells annotated from the single-cell seq analysis are differentiated cells arguing against the possibility that undifferentiated endodermal cells (what the reviewer probably means by pre-hepatoblasts) exist at e11.  The following review (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK27068/) says: “The differentiation of bi-potential hepatoblasts into hepatocytes or BECs begins around e13 of mouse development. Initially hepatoblasts express genes associated with both adult hepatocytes (Hnf4α, Albumin) ...”  Thus, we can be certain that undifferentiated endodermal cells are unlikely to persist on e11 and that hepatoblasts at e11 express albumin.  Our calculation of number of cell divisions in Table 2 begins from e12.

      The reviewer maybe suggesting that ORC deletion leads to the immediate demise of hepatoblasts (despite having inherited ORC protein from the endodermal cells) causing undifferentiated endodermal cells to persist and proliferate much longer than in normal development.  We consider it unlikely, but if true it will be amazing new biology, both by suggesting that deletion of ORC immediately leads to the death of the hepatoblasts (despite a healthy reserve of inherited ORC protein) and by suggesting that there is a novel feedback mechanism from the death/depletion of hepatoblasts leading to the persistence and proliferation of undifferentiated endodermal cells.

      (10) My interpretation of the data is that not all hepatocytes have the ORC1 and ORC2 genes deleted (eg EYFP-negative cells) and that these cells allow some proliferation in the livers of these mice.

      Please see the reply in question #1.  Particularly relevant: “Finally, the Alb-ORC2f/f mice have 25-37.5% of the number of hepatocyte nuclei compared to WT mice (Table 2).  If that many cells had an undeleted ORC2 gene, that would have shown up in the genotyping PCR and in the Western blots.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors address the role of ORC in DNA replication and that this protein complex is not essential for DNA replication in hepatocytes. They provide evidence that ORC subunit levels are substantially reduced in cells that have been induced to delete multiple exons of the corresponding ORC gene(s) in hepatocytes. They evaluate replication both in purified isolated hepatocytes and in mice after hepatectomy. In both cases, there is clear evidence that DNA replication does not decrease at a level that corresponds with the decrease in detectable ORC subunit and that endoreduplication is the primary type of replication observed. It remains possible that small amounts of residual ORC are responsible for the replication observed, although the authors provide arguments against this possibility. The mechanisms responsible for DNA replication in the absence of ORC are not examined.

      Strengths:

      The authors clearly show that there are dramatic reductions in the amount of the targeted ORC subunits in the cells that have been targeted for deletion. They also provide clear evidence that there is replication in a subset of these cells and that it is likely due to endoreduplication. Although there is no replication in MEFs derived from cells with the deletion, there is clearly DNA replication occurring in hepatocytes (both isolated in culture and in the context of the liver). Interestingly, the cells undergoing replication exhibit enlarged cell sizes and elevated ploidy indicating endoreduplication of the genome. These findings raise the interesting possibility that endoreduplication does not require ORC while normal replication does.

      Weaknesses:

      There are two significant weaknesses in this manuscript. The first is that although there is clearly robust reduction of the targeted ORC subunit, the authors cannot confirm that it is deleted in all cells. For example, the analysis in Fig. 4B would suggest that a substantial number of cells have not lost the targeted region of ORC2. Although the western blots show stronger effects, this type of analysis is notorious for non-linear response curves and no standards are provided. The second weakness is that there is no evaluation of the molecular nature of the replication observed. Are there changes in the amount of location of Mcm2-7 loading that is usually mediated by ORC? Does an associated change in Mcm2-7 loading lead to the endoreduplication observed? After numerous papers from this lab and others claiming that ORC is not required for eukaryotic DNA replication in a subset of cells, we still have no information about an alternative pathway that could explain this observation.

      We do not see a significant deficit in MCM2-7 loading (amount and rate) in cancer cell lines where we have deleted ORC1, ORC2 or ORC5 genes separately in Shibata et al. bioRxiv 2024.10.30.621095; doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2024.10.30.621095 (PMID: 39554186)

      The authors frequently use the presence of a Cre-dependent eYFP expression as evidence that the ORC1 or ORC2 genes have been deleted. Although likely the best visual marker for this, it is not demonstrated that the presence of eYFP ensures that ORC2 has been targeted by Cre. For example, based on the data in Fig. 4B, there seems to be a substantial percentage of ORC2 genes that have not been targeted while the authors report that 100% of the cells express eYFP.

      The PCR reactions in Fig. 4B are still contaminated by DNA from non-hepatocyte cells:  bile duct cells, endothelial, Kupfer cells and blood cells.  Under the microscope  culture we can recognize the hepatocytes unequivocally from their morphology. <2% of the hepatocyte cells in culture in Fig. 4C are EYFP-.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (public review):

      (1) The link between the background in the introduction and the actual study and findings is often tenuous or not clearly explained. A re-working of the intro to better set up and link to the study questions would be beneficial.

      We have rewritten the introduction of the manuscript and clearly stated the study questions we were aiming for:

      In paragraph 1-we have stated clearly that we need to study why ADC type of cervical cancer is more aggressive. (Line 58 - 77)

      In paragraph 2- we have stated clearly that we need to find valuable biomarkers to help diagnose lymph node metastasis, which may compensate the shortage of radiological imaging tools and reduce the rate of misdiagnosis. (Line 78 - 100)

      In paragraph 3- we have stated clearly that HPV negative cases is a special group of cervical cancer and we aim to study its cellular features. (Line 101 - 108)

      In paragraph 4- we have stated clearly that we need to decode cell-to-cell interaction mode in the tumor immune microenvironment of ADC using scRNA-seq. (Line 109 - 123)

      (2) For the sequencing, which kit was used on the Novaseq6000?

      For sequencing, we used the Chromium Controller and Chromium Single Cell 3’Reagent Kits (v3 chemistry CG000183) on the Novaseq6000. We feel sorry for lacking this quite important part and have already add the information in Methods section. (Line 196- 197)

      (3) Additional details are needed for the analysis pipeline. How were batch effects identified/dealt with, what were the precise functions and settings for each step of the analysis, how was clustering performed and how were clusters validated etc. Currently, all that is given is software and sometimes function names which are entirely inadequate to be able to assess the validity of the analysis pipeline. This could alternatively be answered by providing annotated copies of the scripts used for analysis as a supplement.

      We apologize for the inadequacy of descriptions of data analysis process. We have already provided a new part of “data processing” with more details in the Methods section (Line 202 - 221). In addition, we have also provided annotated copies of scripts in the supplementary data as Supplementary Data 1.

      (4) For Cell type annotation, please provide the complete list of "selected gene markers" that were used for annotation.

      We have already added the list of marker genes for cell type annotation in the revised manuscript as Supplementary Table 3.

      (5) No statistics are given for the claims on cell proportion differences throughout the paper (for cell types early, epithelial sub-clusters later, and immune cell subsets further on). This should be a multivariate analysis to account for ADC/SCC, HPV+/- and Early/Late stage.

      We feel sorry for lacking statistics when performing analyses of comparisons. In the revision, we have already used statistic approaches to analyze the differences between each set of group comparison. As a result, the corresponding figures have been revised, accordingly.

      For examle, Fig. 1F, Fig. 2D, Fig. 4E, Fig. 5D, Fig. 6D had been re-analyzed to compare ADC/SCC;Supplementary Fig. 1A, Supplementary Fig. 2A, Supplementary Fig. 4A, Supplementary Fig. 5A, Supplementary Fig. 6A had been re-analyzed to compare HPV+/HPV-; Supplementary Fig. 1B, Supplementary Fig. 2B, Supplementary Fig. 4B, Supplementary Fig. 5B, Supplementary Fig. 6B had been re-analyzed to compare Early/Late stage. All P values have been listed in the figure legends.

      (6) The Y-axis label is missing from the proportion histograms in Figure 2D. In these same panels, the bars change widths on the right side. If these are exclusively in ADC, show it with a 0 bar for SCC, not doubling the width which visually makes them appear more important by taking up more area on the plot.

      We feel sorry for impreciseness when presenting histograms of Fig. 2D and we have also revised other figures with similar mistakes, such as Fig. 1F,  Fig. 5D. As for the width of bars, which is due to output style of data processing, we have already corrected all similar mistakes alongside the whole manuscript, for example, Fig. 2D and Supplementary Fig. 2A-B.

      (7) Throughout the manuscript, informatic predictions (differentiation potential, malignancy score, stemness, and trajectory) are presented as though they're concrete facts rather than the predictions they are. Strong conclusions are drawn on the basis of these predictions which do not have adequate data to support. These conclusions which touch on essentially all of the major claims made in the manuscript would need functional data to validate, or the claims need to be very substantially softened as they lack concrete support. Indeed, the fact that most of the genes examined that were characteristic of a given cluster did not show the expected expression patterns in IHC highlights the fact that such predictions require validation to be able to draw proper inferences.

      Thank you for your insightful comments. As you noted, several conclusions were initially based on bioinformatics predictions. Thus in the revised manuscript, we have rewritten all relevant descriptions in a more softened way, particularly in the paragraph of “epithelial cells” in Results section, as well as the conclusions derived from bioinformatics predictions in other paragraphs throughout the manuscript. We hope our revised descriptions will enhance the precision of our work.

      For example, in paragraph “The sub-clusters of epithelial cells in ADC exhibit elevated stem-like features (from Line 353)”, many over-affirmative disriptions had been re-written in Line 353, 362, 371, 375, 379, 383, 390, 392. From Line 395 to 399, the conclusion had been revised as “The observation of cluster Epi_10_CYSTM1 and its possible specificity to ADC makes us question whether or not it may be related to the aggressiveness of ADC” compared to the previous “This observation may partially indicate that high stemness cluster Epi_10_CYSTM1 is essential for ADC to present more aggressive features”. From Line 400 to 408, conclusions from GO analyses had also been rewritten.

      In paragraph “ADC-specific epithelial cluster-derived gene SLC26A3 is a potential prognostic marker for lymph node metastasis (from Line 422)”, many conclusions based on predictions had been revises, such as Line 424 - 428, Line 439 - 441, Line 451 - 453, Line 455 - 457, Line 458 - 459, Line 471 - 473, Line 478 - 481, Line 484 - 486, Line 489, etc.

      In paragraph “Tumor associated neutrophils (TANs) surrounding ADC tumor area may contribute to the formation of a malignant microenvironment (from Line 536)”, we have changed the descriptions based on bio-infomative predictions, such as Line 560, Line 561, Line 565, Line 566, Line 572, Line 576 - 577, etc.

      In paragraph “Crosstalk among tumor cells, Tregs and neutrophils establishes the immunosuppressive TIME in ADC (from Line 601)”, we have already corrected the all the affirmative descriptions, such as Line 604, Line 612, Line 614, Line 626, Line 628 - 629, Line 641, Line 654 – 655, etc.

      All the changes have also been listed in Revision Notes in detail.

      (8) The cluster Epi_10_CYSTM1 which is the basis for much of the paper is present in a single individual (with a single cell coming from another person), and heavily unconnected from the rest of the epithelial populations. If so much emphasis is placed on it, the existence of this cluster as a true subset of cells requires validation.

      We appreciate this suggestion. We agree that the majority of Epi_10_CYSTM1 cells are derived from sample S7. The fact that we have detected this cluster in only one patient may be due to sampling differences and the inherent heterogeneity of tumor specimens. However, the relatively high number of cells in this cluster from one stage III patient suggests its presence in ADC patients and highlights its potential as a diagnostic marker for clinical staging. To further investigate whether this cluster is generally existing in ADC patients, we have identified and selected candidate genes, such as SLC26A3, ORM1, and ORM2, as representative markers of this cluster, which demonstrated high specificity (as shown in Fig. 3B). We then performed IHC staining on a total of 56 tissue samples, and the results showed positive expressions of these markers in the majority of stage IIIC tumor tissues, confirming the existence of this cell cluster (as shown in Supplementary Fig. 3E). In our revised manuscript, we have included an in-depth discussion of this issue in the seventh paragraph of the Discussion section (From Line 801).

      (9) Claims based on survival analysis of TCGA for Epi_10_CYSTM1 are based on a non-significant p-value, though there is a slight trend in that direction.

      Thank you for your insightful comment. From the data of TCGA survival analysis for Epi_10, we found a not-so-slight trend of difference between groups (with a small P value). As a result, we presented this data and hoped to add more strength to the clinical significance of this cluster. However, this indeed caused controversy because the P value is non-significant. As a result, we have already deleted this data in the revised manuscript.

      (10) The claim "The identification of Epi_10_CYSTM1 as the only cell cluster found in patients with stage IIICp raises the possibility that this cluster may be a potential marker to diagnose patients with lymph node metastasis." This is incorrect according to the sample distributions which clearly show cells from the patient who has EPI_10_CYSTM1 in multiple other clusters. This is then used as justification for SLC26A3 which appears to be associated with associated with late stage, however, in the images SLC26A3 appears to be broadly expressed in later tumours rather than restricted to a minor subset as it should be if it were actually related to the EPI_10_CYSTM1 cluster.

      We feel thankful for this question. The conclusion that “The identification of Epi_10_CYSTM1 as the only cell cluster found in patients with stage IIICp raises the possibility that this cluster may be a potential marker to diagnose patients with lymph node metastasis” has indeed been written too concrete according to the sample distribution. We feel sorry for this and have already corrected the description into “As one of stage IIIC-specific cell clusters, the cluster of Epi_10_CYSTM1, with its representative marker gene SLC26A3, presents potential diagnostic value to predict lymph node metastasis” from Line 478-481.

      However, based on our results, we do think this cluster is a potential diagnostic marker and the hypothesis is right. As for SLC26A3, we have specifically added a new paragraph (from Line 801 - 822) in Discussion section to discuss the rationality and necessity of selecting this gene as our central focus, and the reasons why SLC26A3 should be the representative of cluster Epi_10_CYSTM1. As you noted, SLC26A3 appears to be broadly expressed in later tumors rather than restricted to a minor subset in the images. We apologize for any misunderstanding caused. When presenting the IHC data, we only showed the strongly positive areas of each slide to emphasize the differences. In our revision, we have included whole slide scanning images of the IHC samples, clearly showing that SLC26A3 is restricted to a part of the tumors (Supplementary Fig.9).

      (11) The authors claim that cytotoxic T cells express KRT17, and KRT19. This likely represents a mis-clustering of epithelial cells.

      We apologize for using data without noticing the contamination of T cells with few epithelial cells. We have re-performed quality control to exclude contamination and re-analyzed all data of T cells. In the reviesed manuscript, we have therefore updated completely new data for T cells in both Fig. 4 and Supplementary Fig. 4.

      (12) Multiple claims are made for specific activities based on GO term biological process analysis which while not contradictory to the data, certainly are by no means the only explanation for it, nor directly supported.

      Our initial purpose was to use GO analysis as supports for our conclusions. However, we know these are only claims but not evidence, which is also the problem of our writing techniques as in question (7). Therefore, in our revised manuscript, we have already deleted GO data and descriptions in the paragraphs of “T cell (Fig.4)”(from Line 495) and “B/plasma cell (Fig.6)” (from Line 579), because the predictions are quite irrelevant to our conclusions.

      However, in the sections of “epithelial cell (Fig.2)” (from Line 352) and “neutrophils (Fig.5)” (from Line 536), we retained the GO data and rewrote the conclusions, because these analyses have provided us with valuable information regarding the role of specific cell clusters in ADC progression. Furthermore, our subsequent analyses, such as CellChat, have further validated the accuracy of the findings from the GO analysis. We do think this logically supports the whole storyline of the study.

      Reviewer #2 (public review):

      (1) I believe that many of the proposed conclusions are over-interpretations or unwarranted generalizations of the single-cell analysis. These conclusions are often based on populations in the scRNA-seq data that are described as enriched or specific to a given group of samples (eg. ADC). This conclusion is based on the percentage of cells in that population belonging to the given group; for example, a cluster of cells that dominantly come from ADC. The data includes multiple samples for each group, but statistical approaches are never used to demonstrate the reproducibility of these claims.

      We feel sorry that many of the conclusions have been written in an over-affirmative way but lack profound supporting evidences. In our revision, we have already optimized the writing techniques and re-written all conclusions or descriptions related to only bio-informatic predictions. Moreover, we have performed statistical re-analyses on all data and rearranged the related figures.

      For example, in Line 352, we have changed the sub-title “The sub-clusters of epithelial cells exhibit elevated stem-like features to promote the aggressiveness of ADC” into “The sub-clusters of epithelial cells in ADC exhibit elevated stem-like features”. In this paragraph, many over-affirmative discriptions such as “exclusively”, “significant”, “overwhelmingly”, “remarkably” have been deleted. From Line 486-493, the conclusion of “Moreover, SLC26A3 could be employed as a marker for the Epi_10_CYSTM1 cluster, aiding in the diagnosis of lymph node metastasis to prevent post-surgical upstaging in ADC patients in the future” have been changed into “our results propose that SLC26A3 might be considered as a diagnostic marker to predict lymph node metastasis in ADC patients”. Similar over-affirmative descriptions and conclusions had also been re-written in the other paragraphs, which has been refered to question (7) above.

      (2) This leads to problematic conclusions. For example, the "ADC-specific" Epi_10_CYSTM1 cluster, which is a central focus of the paper, only contains cells from one of the 11 ADC samples and represents only a small fraction of the malignant cells from that sample (Sample 7, Figure 2A). Yet, this population is used to derive SLC26A3 as a potential biomarker. SLC26A3 transcripts were only detected in this small population of cells (none of the other ADC samples), which makes me question the specificity of the IHC staining on the validation cohort.

      We sincerely feel grateful for this question. This is a quite important question as it is also pointed out by reviewer#1 in question (8) above. In the revised manuscript, we have already optimized our descriptions and have added detailed explanation for the importance of SLC26A3 in the Discussion section  (from Line 802 - 823). We agree that the majority of Epi_10_CYSTM1 cells are derived from sample S7. The fact that we detected this cluster in only one patient may be due to sampling differences and the inherent heterogeneity of tumor specimens. However, the relatively high number of cells in this cluster from one stage III patient suggests its presence in ADC and highlights its potential as a diagnostic marker for staging ADC. To further investigate whether this cluster is generally present in ADC patients, we identified and selected candidate genes, such as SLC26A3, ORM1, and ORM2, as representative markers of this cluster, which demonstrated high specificity (as shown in Fig. 3B). We then performed IHC staining on 56 cases of tissue samples, and the results showed positive expression of these markers in the majority of stage III tumor tissues, confirming the existence of this cell cluster (as shown in Supplementary Fig. 3E). In our revised manuscript, we have included an in-depth discussion of this issue in the seventh paragraph of the Discussion section.

      (3) This is compounded by technical aspects of the analysis that hinder interpretation. For example, it is clear that the clustering does not perfectly segregate cell types. In Figures 2B and D, it is evident that C4 and C5 contain mixtures of cell type (eg. half of C4 is EPCAM+/CD3-, the other half EPCAM-/CD3+). These contaminations are carried forward into subclustering and are not addressed. Rather, it is claimed that there is a T cell population that is CD3- and EPCAM+, which does not seem likely.

      Thank you for your insightful comment. This important point is also raised by reviewer#1 above. In the revised manuscript, we have reanalyzed our scRNA-seq data and listed the canonical marker genes for cell type annotation. Most importantly, as for T cells and its sub-clustering, we have performed quality control and re-analyzed all data for T cells, with contamination excluded. In the reviesed manuscript, we have added the re-analyzed data for T cells in both Fig. 4 and Supplementary Fig. 4.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (recommendations for the authors):

      The text would substantially benefit from an editorial revision of language usage.

      We sincerely feel grateful for this suggestion. In our revision, we have conducted language editing and carefully rewritten our manuscript. The changes have been clearly marked in the tracked version of the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Use statistical approaches to claim enrichment/specificity of populations to given groups (ADC, HPV, etc). Analysis packages like Milo for differential abundance testing would be very helpful.

      We feel grateful for this suggestion. In our revision, we have performed statistical analyses for all groups of comparison data. Meanwhile, we have rearranged the figures based on these statistical results, for example, Fig. 1F, Fig. 2D, Fig. 4E, Fig. 5D, Fig. 6D, Supplementary Fig. 1A-B, Supplementary Fig. 2A-B, Supplementary Fig. 4A-B, Supplementary Fig. 5A-B, Supplementary Fig. 6A-B.

      (2) In the subclustering, consider a round of quality control to ensure that all cells are of the cell type they are claimed to be. Contaminant clusters/cells could be filtered out or reassigned. This could be supplemented with an automated annotation approach using cell-type references.

      We feel thankful for this suggestion. As a result, we have provided copies of scripts in the supplementary data to ensure the quality control of cell type annotation.

      (3) An explanation for why SLC26A3 is so rare in the scRNA-seq data, but seemingly common in the IHC staining would be helpful. I am concerned about the specificity of the stain.

      We apologize for lacking adequate explanation of SLC26A3 and cluster Epi_10_CYSTM1. This is a quite crucial question as it has been listed above in question (8) of reviewer #1 and question (2) of reviewer #2 (public review section). In the revised manuscript, we have added intenstive discussion about this question in the seventh paragraph of Disccusion section (from Line 801 - 822). In fact, because of the heterogeneity among different individuals and different tumor regions even within one sample, Epi_10_CYSTM1 seemed to be derived from only one sample. However, the relatively high number of cells in this cluster from one late-stage (stage IIIC) patient suggests its presence in ADC and highlights its potential as a diagnostic marker for staging ADC. Furthermore, we have identified SLC26A3, ORM1 and ORM2 as specific markers of this cluser and performed IHC staining. With a positive expression of these markers, the existence of this cluster has been indirectly proved (as shown in Fig. 3B).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      The authors agree with the reviewers that future studies are needed to dissect the mechanisms of eIF3 binding to 3'UTRs and their impact on translation, and the impact of this binding on cellular fate.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This valuable study reveals extensive binding of eukaryotic translation initiation factor 3 (eIF3) to the 3' untranslated regions (UTRs) of efficiently translated mRNAs in human pluripotent stem cell-derived neuronal progenitor cells. The authors provide solid evidence to support their conclusions, although this study may be enhanced by addressing potential biases of techniques employed to study eIF3:mRNA binding and providing additional mechanistic detail. This work will be of significant interest to researchers exploring post-transcriptional regulation of gene expression, including cellular, molecular, and developmental biologists, as well as biochemists.

      We thank the reviewers for their positive views of the results we present, along with the constructive feedback regarding the strengths and weaknesses of our manuscript, with which we generally agree. We acknowledge our results will require a deeper exploration of the molecular mechanisms behind eIF3 interactions with 3'-UTR termini and experiments to identify the molecular partners involved. Additionally, given that NPC differentiation toward mature neurons is a process that takes around 3 weeks, we recognize the importance of examining eIF3-mRNA interactions in NPCs that have undergone differentiation over longer periods than the 2-hr time point selected in this study. Finally, considering the molecular complexity of the 13subunit human eIF3, we agree that a direct comparison between Quick-irCLIP and PAR-CLIP will be highly beneficial and will determine whether different UV crosslinking wavelengths report on different eIF3 molecular interactions. Additional comments are given below to the identified weaknesses.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors perform irCLIP of neuronal progenitor cells to profile eIF3-RNA interactions upon short-term neuronal differentiation. The data shows that eIF3 mostly interacts with 3'-UTRs - specifically, the poly-A signal. There appears to be a general correlation between eIF3 binding to 3'-UTRs and ribosome occupancy, which might suggest that eIF3 binding promotes protein

      Strengths:

      The study provides a wealth of new data on eIF3-mRNA interactions and points to the potential new concept that eIF3-mRNA interactions are polyadenylation-dependent and correlate with ribosome occupancy.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) A main limitation is the correlative nature of the study. Whereas the evidence that eIF3 interacts with 3-UTRs is solid, the biological role of the interactions remains entirely unknown. Similarly, the claim that eIF3 interactions with 3'-UTR termini require polyadenylation but are independent of poly(A) binding proteins lacks support as it solely relies on the absence of observable eIF3 binding to poly-A (-) histone mRNAs and a seeming failure to detect PABP binding to eIF3 by co-immunoprecipitation and Western blotting. In contrast, LC-MS data in Supplementary File 1 show ready co-purification of eIF3 with PABP.

      We agree the molecular mechanisms underlying the crosslinking between eIF3 and the end of mRNA 3’-UTRs remains to be determined. We also agree that the lack of interaction seen between eIF3 and PABP in Westerns, even from HEK293T cells, is a puzzle. The low sequence coverage in the LC-MS data gave us pause about making a strong statement that these represent direct eIF3 interactions, given the similar background levels of some ribosomal proteins.

      (2) Another question concerns the relevance of the cellular model studied. irCLIP is performed on neuronal progenitor cells subjected to neuronal induction for 2 hours. This short-term induction leads to a very modest - perhaps 10% - and very transient 1-hour-long increase in translation, although this is not carefully quantified. The cellular phenotype also does not appear to change and calling the cells treated with differentiation media for 2 hours "differentiated NPCs" seems a bit misleading. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the minor "burst" of translation coincides with minor effects on eIF3-mRNA interactions most of which seem to be driven by mRNA levels. Based on the ~15-fold increase in ID2 mRNA coinciding with a ~5-fold increase in ribosome occupancy (RPF), ID2 TE actually goes down upon neuronal induction.

      We agree that it will be interesting to look at eIF3-mRNA interactions at longer time points after induction of NPC differentiation. However, the pattern of eIF3 crosslinking to the end of 3’-UTRs occurs in both time points reported here, which is likely to be the more general finding in what we present.

      (3) The overlap in eIF3-mRNA interactions identified here and in the authors' previous reports is minimal. Some of the discrepancies may be related to the not well-justified approach for filtering data prior to assessing overlap. Still, the fundamentally different binding patterns - eIF3 mostly interacting with 5'-UTRs in the authors' previous report and other studies versus the strong preference for 3'-UTRs shown here - are striking. In the Discussion, it is speculated that the different methods used - PAR-CLIP versus irCLIP - lead to these fundamental differences. Unfortunately, this is not supported by any data, even though it would be very important for the translation field to learn whether different CLIP methodologies assess very different aspects of eIF3-mRNA interactions.

      We agree the more interesting aspect of what we observe is the difference in location of eIF3 crosslinking, i.e. the end of 3’-UTRs rather than 5’-UTRs or the pan-mRNA pattern we observed in T cells. The reviewer is right that it will be important in the future to compare PAR-CLIP and Quick-irCLIP side-by-side to begin to unravel the differences we observe with the two approaches.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The paper documents the role of eIF3 in translational control during neural progenitor cell (NPC) differentiation. eIF3 predominantly binds to the 3' UTR termini of mRNAs during NPC differentiation, adjacent to the poly(A) tails, and is associated with efficiently translated mRNAs, indicating a role for eIF3 in promoting translation.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is strong in addressing molecular mechanisms by using a combination of nextgeneration sequencing and crosslinking techniques, thus providing a comprehensive dataset that supports the authors' claims. The manuscript is methodologically sound, with clear experimental designs.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The study could benefit from further exploration into the molecular mechanisms by which eIF3 interacts with 3' UTR termini. While the correlation between eIF3 binding and high translation levels is established, the functionality of these interactions needs validation. The authors should consider including experiments that test whether eIF3 binding sites are necessary for increased translation efficiency using reporter constructs.

      We agree with the reviewer that the molecular mechanism by which eIF3 interacts with the 3’UTR termini remains unclear, along with its biological significance, i.e. how it contributes to translation levels. We think it could be useful to try reporters in, perhaps, HEK293T cells in the future to probe the mechanism in more detail.

      (2) The authors mention that the eIF3 3' UTR termini crosslinking pattern observed in their study was not reported in previous PAR-CLIP studies performed in HEK293T cells (Lee et al., 2015) and Jurkat cells (De Silva et al., 2021). They attribute this difference to the different UV wavelengths used in Quick-irCLIP (254 nm) and PAR-CLIP (365 nm with 4-thiouridine). While the explanation is plausible, it remains a caveat that different UV crosslinking methods may capture different eIF3 modules or binding sites, depending on the chemical propensities of the amino acid-nucleotide crosslinks at each wavelength. Without addressing this caveat in more detail, the authors cannot generalize their findings, and thus, the title of the paper, which suggests a broad role for eIF3, may be misleading. Previous studies have pointed to an enrichment of eIF3 binding at the 5' UTRs, and the divergence in results between studies needs to be more explicitly acknowledged.

      We agree with the reviewer that the two methods of crosslinking will require a more detailed head-to-head comparison in the future. However, we do think the title is justified by the fact that we see crosslinking to the termini of 3’-UTRs across thousands of transcripts in each condition. Furthermore, the 3’-UTR crosslinking is enriched on mRNAs with higher ribosome protected fragment counts (RPF) in differentiated cells, Figure 3F.

      (3) While the manuscript concludes that eIF3's interaction with 3' UTR termini is independent of poly(A)-binding proteins, transient or indirect interactions should be tested using assays such as PLA (Proximity Ligation Assay), which could provide more insights.

      This is a good idea, but would require a substantial effort better suited to a future publication. We think our observations are interesting enough to the field to stimulate future experimentation that we may or may not be most capable of doing in our lab.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript by Mestre-Fos and colleagues, authors have analyzed the involvement of eIF3 binding to mRNA during differentiation of neural progenitor cells (NPC). The authors bring a lot of interesting observations leading to a novel function for eIF3 at the 3'UTR.

      During the translational burst that occurs during NPC differentiation, analysis of eIF3-associated mRNA by Quick-irCLIP reveals the unexpected binding of this initiation factor at the 3'UTR of most mRNA. Further analysis of alternative polyadenylation by APAseq highlights the close proximity of the eIF3-crosslinking position and the poly(A) tail. Furthermore, this interaction is not detected in Poly(A)-less transcripts. Using Riboseq, the authors then attempted to correlate eIF3 binding with the translation efficacy of mRNA, which would suggest a common mechanism of translational control in these cells. These observations indicate that eIF3-binding at the 3'UTR of mRNA, near the poly(A) tail, may participate to the closed-loop model of mRNA translation, bridging 5' and 3', and allowing ribosomes recycling. However, authors failed to detect interactions of eIF3, with either PABP or Paip1 or 40S subunit proteins, which is quite unexpected.

      Strength:

      The well-written manuscript presents an attractive concept regarding the mechanism of eIF3 function at the 3'UTR. Most mRNA in NPC seems to have eIF3 binding at the 3'UTR and only a few at the 5'end where it's commonly thought to bind. In a previous study from the Cate lab, eIF3 was reported to bind to a small region of the 3'UTR of the TCRA and TCRB mRNA, which was responsible for their specific translational stimulation, during T cell activation. Surprisingly in this study, the eIF3 association with mRNA occurs near polyadenylation signals in NPC, independently of cell differentiation status. This compelling evidence suggests a general mechanism of translation control by eIF3 in NPC. This observation brings back the old concept of mRNA circularization with new arguments, independent of PABP and eIF4G interaction. Finally, the discussion adequately describes the potential technical limitations of the present study compared to previous ones by the same group, due to the use of Quick-irCLIP as opposed to the PAR-CLIP/thiouridine.  

      Weaknesses:

      (1) These data were obtained from an unusual cell type, limiting the generalizability of the model.

      We agree that unraveling the mechanism employed by eIF3 at the mRNA 3’-UTR termini might be better studied in a stable cell line rather than in primary cells.

      (2) This study lacks a clear explanation for the increased translation associated with NPC differentiation, as eIF3 binding is observed in both differentiated and undifferentiated NPC. For example, I find a kind of inconsistency between changes in Riboseq density (Figure 3B) and changes in protein synthesis (Figure 1D). Thus, the title overstates a modest correlation between eIF3 binding and important changes in protein synthesis.

      We thank the reviewer for this question. Riboseq data and RNASeq data are not on absolute scales when comparing across cell conditions. They are normalized internally, so increases in for example RPF in Figure 3B are relative to the bulk RPF in a given condition. By contrast, the changes in protein synthesis measured in Figure 1D is closer to an absolute measure of protein synthesis. 

      (3) This is illustrated by the candidate selection that supports this demonstration. Looking at Figure 3B, ID2, and SNAT2 mRNA are not part of the High TE transcripts (in red). In contrast, the increase in mRNA abundance could explain a proportionally increased association with eIF3 as well as with ribosomes. The example of increased protein abundance of these best candidates is overall weak and uncertain.

      We agree that using TE as the criterion for defining increased eIF3 association would not be correct. By “highly translated” we only mean to convey the extent of protein synthesis, i.e. increases in ribosome protected fragments (RPF), rather than the translational efficiency.

      (4) Despite several attempts (chemical and UV cross-linking) to identify eIF3 partners in NPC such as PABP, PAIP1, or proteins from the 40S, the authors could not provide any evidence for such a mechanism consistent with the closed-loop model. Overall, this rather descriptive study lacks mechanistic insight (eIF3 binding partners).

      We agree that it will be important to identify the molecular mechanism used by eIF3 to engage the termini of mRNA 3’-UTRs. Nevertheless, the identification of eIF3 crosslinking to that location in mRNAs is new, and we think will stimulate new experiments in the field.

      (5) Finally, the authors suspect a potential impact of technical improvement provided by QuickirCLIP, that could have been addressed rather than discussed.

      We agree a side-by-side comparison of eIF3 crosslinks captured by PAR-CLIP versus QuickirCLIP will be an important experiment to do. However, NPCs or other primary cells may not be the best system for the comparison. We think using an established cell line might be more informative, to control for effects such as 4-thiouridine toxicity.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The Western blot signals for SLC38A2 and ID2 are close to the membrane background and little convincing. Size markers are missing.

      We agree these antibodies are not great. They are the best we could find, unfortunately. We have included originals of all western blots and gels as supplementary information. It’s important to note that the Riboseq data for ID2 and SLC38A2 are consistent with the western blots. See Figure 3C and Figure 3–figure supplement 3B.

      (2) Figure 1 - Figure Supplement 1 appears to present data from a single experiment. This is far less than ideal considering the minor differences measured.

      Thanks for the comment. This is a representative experiment showing the early time course. We have added a second experiment with two different treatments that show the same pattern in the puromycin assay, in Figure 1–figure supplement 1.

      (3) Figure 3F: One wonders what this would look like if TE was plotted instead of RPF. Figure 3 - Figure Supplement 4 seems to show something along those lines. However, the data are not mentioned in the main results section are quite unclear. Why are data separated into TE high and low? Doesn't TE high in differentiated cells equal TE low in undifferentiated cells?

      This is an interesting question. Note that in Figure 3B, n=6300 genes show no change in TE upon differentiation, compared to a total of n=2127 that show a change in TE, with most of those changes not very large. We have now replotted Figure 3F comparing irCLIP read counts in 3’-UTRs to RPF read counts, which shows a significant positive correlation, regardless of whether we look at undifferentiated or differentiated NPCs (See Figure 3F and a new Figure 3– figure supplement 4A). We also compare irCLIP reads in 3’-UTRs to TE values, which show no correlation (See Figure 3G and Figure 3–figure supplement 4B).

      Figure 3-figure supplement 4 was actually a response to a previous round of review (at PLOS Biology) to a rather technical question from a reviewer. We think this figure and associated text should be removed. Instead, we now include supplementary tables with the processed RPF and TE values, for reference (Supplemental files 4-6). We omitted these in the original submission when they should have been included. We also abandoned comparing undifferentiated and differentiated NPCs, and instead look directly at irCLIP reads vs. RPFs or TE, regardless of NPC state, as noted above (Figure 3F, G, and Figure 3–figure supplement 4).

      (4) Figure 3C: The data should be plotted on the same y-axis scale. This would make a visual assessment of the differences in mRNA and RFP levels more intuitive.

      Thanks for this suggestion. We have rescaled the plots as requested.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The quality of the Western blots in several figures is quite poor. Notably, Figure 1C seems to be a composite gel, as each blot appears to come from a different gel. Additionally, in Supplementary Figure 1A, there is only a single data point, yet the authors indicate that this image is representative of multiple assays. The lack of error bars in this figure raises a question vis-a-vis the reproducibility of the experiments.

      Thanks for the comments. We now include all the original gels as supplementary information. As noted above, the antibodies for ID2 and SLC38A2 are not great, we agree. And as we noted above, the Riboseq data for ID2 and SLC38A2 are consistent with the western blots.

      (2) For the top 500 targets of undifferentiated and differentiated NPCs in the Quick-irCLIP assay, the manuscript does not clarify how many targets are common and how many are unique to each condition. This information is important for understanding the extent of overlap and differentiation-specific interactions of eIF3 with mRNAs. Providing this data would strengthen the interpretation of the results.

      There are 449 of the top 500 hits in common between undifferentiated and differentiated NPCs. We have now added this information to the text, to add clarity. 

      (3) The manuscript does not provide detailed percentages or numbers regarding the overlap between iCLIP and APA-Seq peaks. Clarifying this overlap, particularly in terms of how many of the APA sites are also targets of eIF3, would bolster the understanding of how these two datasets converge to support the authors' conclusions.

      This is a difficult calculation to make, due to the fact that APA-Seq reads are generally much longer than the Quick-irCLIP reads. This is why we focused instead on quantifying the percent of Quick-irCLIP peaks (which are more narrow) overlap with predicted polyadenylation sequences, in Figure 2-figure supplement 1.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Perform Quick-irCLIP in HEK293 cells to infer technical limitations and/or to generalize the model. The authors will then compare again eIF3 binding site in Jurkat, HEK293, and NPC.

      This is an experiment we plan to do for a future publication, given that we would want to repeat both Quick-irCLIP and PAR-CLIP at the same time.

      (2) Select mRNA candidates with high or low TE changes and analyze eIF3 binding and RPF density and protein abundance along NPC differentiation to support the role of eIF3 binding in stimulating translation.

      We agree looking at time courses in more depth would be interesting. However, this would require substantial experimentation, which is better suited to a future study. Furthermore, now that we have moved away from comparing undifferentiated NPCs and differentiated NPCs when examining TE and RPF values (Figure 3 and Figure 3–figure supplement 4), we think the results now support a more general mechanism of translation reflected in the irCLIP 3’-UTR vs. RPF correlation, independent of NPC state.

      (3) Analyze the interaction of eIF3 with eIF4G and other known partners. This will really provide an improvement to the manuscript. The lack of interaction between eIF3 and the 40S is quite surprising.

      We agree more work needs to be done on the mechanistic side. These are experiments we think would be best to carry out in a stable cell line in the future, rather than primary cells.

      (4) Perform Oligo-dT pulldown (or cap column if possible) and analyze the relative association of PABP, eIF3, and eIF4F on mRNA in NPC versus HEK293. This will clarify whether this mechanism of mRNA translation is specific to NPC or not.

      Thanks for this suggestion. We are uncertain how it would be possible to deconvolute all the possible ways to interpret results from such an experiment. We agree thinking about ways to study the mechanism will keep us occupied for a while.

      (5) Citations in the text indicate the first author, whereas the references are numbered! 

      Our apologies for this oversight. This was a carryover from previous formatting, and has been fixed.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      (1) In my opinion, the major weakness is the selection of IVs, the same IVs should be used for each exposure, especially when the outcomes (IA, SAH, and uIA) are closely related. The removal of IVs was inconsistent, for example, why was LPA rs10455872 removed for SAH but not for uIA? (significantly more IVs were used for uIA). The authors should provide more details for the justification of the removal of IVs other than only indicating "confounder" in supplementary tables. The authors should also perform additional analyses including all IVs and IVs from other PUFA GWAS.

      We apologized for our negligence. We reconducted a two-sample MR analysis following the removal of rs10455872 from the uIA, which yielded unaltered ORs and 95% confidence intervals. The P-value was once again found to be statistically insignificant. These results demonstrate the robustness of our MR analyses and indicate that this SNP does not exert an influence on the overall results. (see Figure 4)

      For SNP selection, we adhered rigorously to the established Mendelian randomization analysis process for the screening of instrumental variables. "Confounder" is mean that a current explicit influencer that is explicitly associated with the outcome variable. Following the removal of such confounding SNPs, the analysis of heterogeneity and pleiotropy is repeated on several occasions in MR analysis using radical MR, MRPRESSO, IVW-radical and Egger-radical, with each iteration involving the removal of the corresponding anomalous SNPs until all instances of pleiotropy and heterogeneity have been eliminated, it can be observed that the final single-nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) for each group is not identical. Therefore, It can be observed that the final SNPs for each group is not identical.

      (2) In addition, it seems that the SNPs in the FADS locus were driving the MR association, while FADS is a very pleiotropic locus associated with many lipid traits, removing FADS could attenuate the MR effect. The authors should perform a sensitivity analysis to remove this locus.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. In our revised manuscript, We reconducted MR analysis of the positive results after the removal of the FADS2 and its SNPs within 500 kb of the FADS2 locus. This analysis demonstrated that there was no significant causal pathogenic association between PUFA and IA, aSAH. This result validated that SNP: rs174564 was a significant factor driving the causal association between PUFAs and CA. (See page 6, line155-157 and Figure 8)

      (3) Instead of removing multiple "confounder" IVs which I think may bias the MR results due to very closely related lipid traits, the authors should perform multivariable MR to identify independent effects of PUFAs to IA, conditioning on other PUFAs and/or other lipids.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. In our revised manuscript, we employed MVMR through adjust for HDL cholesterol, LDL cholesterol, total cholesterol and triglycerides, to remove bias from closely related lipid traits. The application of MVMR analysis serves to reinforce the robustness of our conclusions. (See page 6, line151-153 and Figure5-7)

      (4) Colocalization was not well described, the authors should include the colocalization results for each locus in a supplementary table. They also mentioned "a large PP for H4 (PP.H4 above 0.75) strongly supports shared causal variants affecting both gene expression and phenotype". The authors should make sure that the colocalization was performed using the expression data of each gene or using the GWAS summary of each PUFA locus.

      I apologize for our negligence. We have added the detailed results of the COLOC for each locus in the supplementary table. (See supplementary table 6)

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) I suggest the authors consult Borges et al., 2022 (doi: 10.1186/s12916-022-02399-w) for PUFA IV selection, and perform sensitivity analysis based on Borges et al., 2022 IVs and another PUFA GWAS (such as J Kettunen et al., 2016, doi: 10.1038/ncomms11122).

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. In order to provide further evidence of the robustness of the results of our analyses, we conducted MVMR and a sensitivity analysis after excluding SNPs within 500 kb of the FADS2 locus, as recommended by Borges et al. (2022). (See page 6, line151-157 and Figure 5-8)

      In regard to the article by J. Kettunen et al. (2016), we found that the validation dataset from which the article was sourced was insufficient in terms of sample size and lacked the requisite statistical efficacy to be used for validation purposes.

      (2) The authors justified that colocalization is to determine if "PUFAs are mediators in the hereditary causative route of cerebral aneurysm", which I don't think is the case.

      Colocalization is to determine whether an MR estimate is not confounded by LD.

      I apologize for our incorrect description. We have made careful modification in our revised manuscript, as follows: “There is consistent evidence that PUFAs have a beneficial causal effect on cerebral aneurysm. In order to determine an MR estimate is not confounded by LD, we used COLOC to identify shared causal SNP between PUFAs and cerebral aneurysms”. (See page 7-8, line 215-217)

      (3) Supplementary tables 2-4 were a bit confusing to me, I suggest the authors provide one supplementary table for each exposure.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. Supplementary tables 2_1-2_5 shows the exposure data for the five PUFAs associated with IA, supplementary tables 3_1-3_5 shows the exposure data for the five PUFAs associated with aSAH and supplementary tables 4_1-4_5 shows the exposure data for the five PUFAs associated with UIA. Each exposure is represented by a distinct table.

      (4) Figure 1 legend: I can't find multivariable MR in the figure/method.

      I apologize for our negligence. In our revised manuscript, we have added the MVMR methodology. We also have modified Figure 1 and Figure 1 legend. (See Figure 1, Figure 1 legend and page 6, line 151-153)

      (5) LOO analysis was mentioned in methods and results but I could not find the results for LOO.

      I apologize for our negligence. In our revised manuscript, we have described the results of the LOO, as follows: “The leave-one-out plot demonstrates that there is a potentially influential SNP (rs174564) driving the causal link between PUFA and cerebral aneurysm.” (See page 7, line 209-210)

      (6) Finally, the authors should proofread their manuscript as many sentences are difficult to read, such as:

      Line 183: "...MR methods revealed consistency", "However, there was no any causal relationship..."

      Line 200: "For achieve that..."

      I apologize for our incorrect description. We have modified these descriptions in our revised manuscript, as follows: “The results demonstrated consistency in the outcomes and directionality of the various MR methods employed” and “In order to determine an MR estimate is not confounded by LD, we used COLOC to identify shared causal SNP between PUFAs and cerebral aneurysms”. (See page 7, line 187-188 and line 215-217).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Are there any previous epidemiological studies on the association between PUFA and cerebral aneurysm? It will be helpful to introduce this background.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. The epidemiology of PUFA with aneurysm in other sites, such as the abdominal aorta, are described in the Introduction section. Although there is a paucity of large-scale multicenter clinical epidemiological studies examining the relationship between PUFAs and cerebral aneurysms, we are endeavoring to infer a prior association between PUFAs and cerebral aneurysms with the aid of Mendelian randomization analysis.

      (2) The authors performed a leave-one-out analysis but did not explain much about the results. The leave-one-out analysis seems to provide some evidence that some SNP is driving the results, like rs174564 in Supplementary Figure 5-1.

      I apologize for our negligence. In our revised manuscript, we have described the results of the leave-one-out analysis, as follows: “The leave-one-out plot demonstrates that there is a potentially influential SNP (rs174564) driving the causal link between PUFA and cerebral aneurysm”. (See page 7, line209-214)”.

      (3) In the discussion (line 211), the authors mentioned omega-6 fatty acids increased the risk of IA and aSAH, omega-3 fatty acids decreased the risk for IA and aSAH, but omega-6 by omega-3 decreased the risk of IA and aSAH. This seems to be different from the figures.

      I apologize for our incorrect description. We have modified this description in our revised manuscript, as follows: “We demonstrated that the omega-3 fatty acids, DHA and, omega-3-pct causally decreased the risk for IA and aSAH. And omega-6 by omega-3 causally increased the risk of IA and aSAH”. (See page 8, line228-230)

      Minor:

      (4) Some grammar errors need to be checked, such as:

      In line 200, "For achieve that, we tested for shared causative SNPs between PUFAs and cerebral aneurysm using COLOC".

      In line 123, "Fourth, to eliminate unclear, palindromic and associated with known confounding factors (body mass index (McDowell et 125 al., 2018), blood pressure (Sun et al., 2022), type 2 diabetes (Tian et al., 2022), high-density lipoprotein (Huang et al., 2018)) SNPs."

      I apologize for our incorrect description. We have modified these descriptions in our revised manuscript, as follows: “Fourth, remove SNPs that are obscure, palindromic, and linked to recognized confounding variables (body mass index (McDowell et al., 2018), blood pressure (Sun et al., 2022), type 2 diabetes (Tian et al., 2022), high-density lipoprotein (Huang et al., 2018))” and “In order to determine an MR estimate is not confounded by LD, we used COLOC to identify shared causal SNP between PUFAs and cerebral aneurysms”. (See page 5, line 124-127 and page 7 line215-217)

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The findings of Ziolkowska and colleagues show that a specific projection from the nucleus reuniens of the thalamus (RE) to dorsal hippocampal CA1 neurons plays an important role in fear extinction learning in male and female mice. In and of itself, this is not a particularly new finding, although the authors' identification of structural alterations from within dorsal CA1 stratum lacunosum moleculare (SLM) as a candidate mechanism for the learning-related plasticity is potentially novel and exciting. The authors use a range of anatomical and functional approaches to demonstrate structural synaptic changes in dorsal CA1 that parallel the necessary role of RE inputs in modulating extinction learning. Yet, the significance of these findings is substantially limited by several technical shortcomings in the experimental design, and the authors' central interpretation. Otherwise, there remain several strengths in the design and interpretation that offset some of these concerns.

      Given that much is already known about the role of RE and hippocampus in modulating fear learning and extinction, it remains unclear whether addressing these concerns would substantially increase the impact of this study beyond the specific area of speciality. Below, several major weaknesses will be highlighted, followed by several miscellaneous comments.

      Methodological:

      (1) One major methodological weakness in the experimental design involves the widespread misapplication of Ns used for the statistical analyses. Much of the anatomical analyses of structural synaptic changes in the RE-CA1 pathway use N = number of axons (Figs. 1, 2), N = number of dendrites (Figs. 3, 4), and N = number of sections (Fig. 7; note that there are 7 figures in total). In every instance, N = animal number should be used. It is unclear which of these results would remain significant if N = animal number were used in each or how many more animals would be required. This is problematic since these data comprise the main evidence for the authors' central conclusion that specific structural synaptic changes are associated with fear extinction learning.

      We do agree with the reviewer that N = animal number is the preferred way to present data in most of our experiments. However, in some experimental groups we observed a very low number of entries. For example, in the 5US group we found RE+/+ spines only in 3 out of 6 analyzed animals. We believe that this observation is not due to technical problems as mCherry virus transduction required to find RE+/+ spines is similar in all experimental groups and we analyzed similar volumes of tissue. While this result still allows the calculation of density of RE+/+ spines per animal it generates no entries for spine area and PSD95 mean gray value if N = animal number. Hence, we decided to use N=animals to calculate spines and boutons densities, and N=dendritic spines/boutons to calculate other spine/bouton parameters. 

      (2) There is a lack of specific information regarding what constitutes learning with respect to behavioral freezing. It is never clearly stated what specific intervals are used over which freezing is measured during acquisition, extinction, and in extinction retrieval tests. Additionally, assessment of freezing during retrieval at 5- and 30-min time points doesn't lay to rest the possibility that there were differences in the decay rate over the 30-min period (also see below).

      We added a detailed description of how learning was assessed.

      ln 125-134: “For assessment of learning we used percent of time spent by animals freezing (% freezing). Freezing behavior was defined as complete lack of movement, except respiration. To assess within-session learning (working memory) we compared pre- and post-US freezing frequency (the first 148 sec vs last 30 sec) during the CFC session (day 1). To assess formation of long-term contextual fear memory, we compared pre-US freezing (day 1) and the first 5 minutes of the Extinction session (day 2). To assess within session contextual fear extinction we ran 2-way ANOVA to assess the effect of time and manipulation on freezing frequency. Freezing data were analyzed in 5-minute bins. To assess formation of long-term contextual fear extinction memory we compared the first 5 minutes of the Extinction session (day 2) and Test session (day 3).”

      As suggested by the reviewer, we also added data for all six 5-minut bins of Extinction sessions.

      (3) A minor-to-moderate methodological weakness concerns the authors' decision to utilize saline injected groups as controls for the chemogenetics experiments (Figs. 5, 6). The correct design is to have a CNO-only group with the same viral procedure sans hM4Di. This concern is partly mitigated by the inclusion of a CNO vs. saline injection control experiment (Fig. 6).

      Figure 5 does not describe a chemogenetic experiment.

      We added new groups with control virus (CNO vs saline) to Figure 6 (now Fig. 6D and H).

      The chemogenetic experiment shown on Figure 7 has all 4 experimental groups (Control vs hM4Di and saline vs CNO).

      (4) In the electron microscopic analyses of dendritic spines (Fig. 5), comparison of only the fear acquisition versus extinction training, and the lack of inclusion of a naïve control group, makes it difficult to understand how these structural synaptic changes are occurring relative to baseline. It is noteworthy that the authors utilize the tripartite design in other anatomical analyses (Fig. 2-4).

      We added data for the Naive mice to Figure 5.

      (5) Interpretation:

      The main interpretive weakness in the study is the authors' claim that their data shows a role for the RE-CA1 pathway in memory consolidation (i.e., see Abstract). This claim is based on the premise that, although RE-CA1 pathway inactivation with CNO treatment 30 min prior to contextual fear extinction did not affect freezing at 5- and 30-min time points relative to saline controls, these rats showed greater freezing when tested on extinction retrieval 24 h thereafter. First, the data do not rule out possible differences in the decay rate of freezing during extinction training due to CNO administration. Next, the fact that CNO is given prior to training still leaves open the possibility that acquisition was affected, even if there were not any frank differences in freezing. Support for this latter possibility derives from the fact that mice tested for extinction retrieval as early as 5 min after extinction training (Fig. 6C) showed the same impairments as mice tested 24 h later (Figs. 6A). Further, all the structural synaptic changes argued to underlie consolidation were based on analysis at a time point immediately following extinction training, which is too early to allow for any long-term changes that would underlie memory consolidation, but instead would confer changes associated with the extinction training event.

      We do agree with the reviewer that our data do not allow us to conclude whether RE-CA1 pathway is involved in acquisition or consolidation of CFE memory. Therefore, we avoid those terms in the manuscript. We just conclude that RE→CA1 participates in the CFE.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Ziółkowska et al. characterize the synaptic mechanisms at the basis of the REdCA1 contribution to the consolidation of fear memory extinction. In particular, they describe a layer specific modulation of RE-dCA1 excitatory synapses modulation associated to contextual fear extinction which is impaired by transient chemogenetic inhibition of this pathway. These results indicate that RE activity-mediated modulation of synaptic morphology contributes to the consolidation of contextual fear extinction

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is well conceived, the statistical analysis is solid and methodology appropriate. The strength of this work is that it nicely builds up on existing literature and provides new molecular insight on a thalamo-hippocampal circuit previously known for its role in fear extinction. In addition, the quantification of pre- and post-synapses is particularly thorough.

      Weaknesses:

      The findings in this paper are well supported by the data more detailed description of the methods is needed.

      (1) In the paragraph Analysis of dCA1 synapses after contextual fear extinction (CFE), more experimental and methodological data should be given in the text:

      - how was PSD95 used for the analysis, what was the difference between RE. Even if Thy1-GFP mice were used in Fig.2, it appears they were not used for bouton size analysis. To improve clarity, I suggest moving panel 2C to Figure 3. It is not clear whether all RE axons were indiscriminately analysed in Fig. 2 or if only the ones displaying colocalization with both PSD95 and GFP were analysed. If GFP was not taken into account here, analysed boutons could reflect synapses onto inhibitory neurons and this potential scenario should be discussed.

      PSD-95 immunostaining in close apposition to boutons was used to identify RE buttons innervating CA1 (Fig 1 and 2). In these cases PSD-95 signal was not quantified. PSD-95 in close apposition to dendritic spines was used as a proxy of PSDs in CA1 (Figure 3, 4 and 7). In these cases we assessed the integrated mean gray value of PSD-95 signal per dendritic spine (Figure 3, 4) or per ROI (Figure 7). This is explained in detail in the section Confocal microscopy and image quantification (ln 149-172).

      GFP signal was not taken into account during boutons analysis. This is explained in the materials and methods section Confocal microscopy and image quantification (ln 149-172).

      We indicate that PSD-95 is a marker of excitatory synapses located both on excitatory and inhibitory neurons.

      Ln 258: RE boutons were identified in SO and SLM as axonal thickenings in close apposition to PSD-95-positive puncta (a synaptic scaffold used as a marker of excitatory synapses located both on excitatory and inhibitory neurons (Kornau et al., 1995; El-Husseini et al., 2000; Chen et al., 2011; Dharmasri et al., 2024).

      We also cite literature demonstrating that RE projects to the hippocampal formation and forms asymmetric synapses with dendritic spines and dendrites, suggesting innervation of excitatory synapses on both excitatory and aspiny inhibitory neurons (ln 673).

      As advised by the reviewer the Figure 2C panel was moved to Figure 3 (now it is Fig 3A).

      (2) in the methods: The volume of intra-hippocampal CNO injections should be indicated. The concentration of 3 uM seems pretty low in comparison with previous studies. CNO source is missing.

      This section has been rewritten to be more clear. The concentration of CNO was chosen based on the previous studies (Stachniak et al., 2014).

      ln 103: “Cannula placement. Mice were anesthetized by inhalation of 3–5% isoflurane (IsoFlo; Abbott Animal Health) in oxygen and positioned in a stereotaxic frame (51503, Stoelting, Wood Dale, IL, USA). Two holes were drilled in the skull, and a double guide cannulae (2 mm apart and 2 mm long; 26GA, Plastics One) was lowered into the holes such that the cannula tip was located over dorsal CA1 area (2 mm posterior to bregma, ±1 mm lateral, and −1.3 mm vertical). Cannulae were kept patent by using 33-gauge internal dummy cannulae (Plastics One). The animals were used in contextual fear conditioning 21 days after the cannulation. Animals received bilateral CNO (3 μM, 0.2 μl per side for 1 min; Tocris Bioscience, Cat. No. 4936) (Stachniak et al., 2014) or saline injections (0.2 μl per side) 30 minutes before Extinction session via intrahippocampal injection cannulae (33-gauge). After the infusion, the cannula was left in place for 30 seconds. The cannula placement was verified by histology, and only data from animals with correct cannula implants were included in statistical analyses.”

      (3) More details of what software/algorithm was used to score freezing should be included.

      Freezing was automatically scored with VideoFreeze™ Software (Med Associates Inc.).

      (4) Antibody dilutions for IHC should be indicated. Secondary antibody incubation time should be indicated.

      The missing information is added.

      ln 144: “Next, sections were incubated in 4°C overnight with primary antibodies directed against PSD-95 (1:500, Millipore, MAB 1598), washed three times in 0.3% Triton X-100 in PBS and incubated in room temperature for 90 minutes with a secondary antibody bound with Alexa Fluor 647 (1:500, Invitrogen, A31571).”

      (5) No statement about code and data availability is present.

      The statements are added.

      ln 785: Row data and the code used for analysis of confocal data is available at OSF (https://osf.io/bnkpx/).

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper examined the role of nucleus reuniens (RE) projections to dorsal CA1 neurons in context fear extinction learning. First, they show that RE neurons send excitatory projections to the stratum oriens (SO) and the stratum lacunosum moleculare (SLM), but not the stratum radiatum (SR). After context fear conditioning, the synaptic connections between RE and dCA1 neurons in the SLM (but not the SO) are weakened (reduced bouton and spine density) after mice undergo context fear conditioning. This weakening is reversed by extinction learning, which leads to enhanced synaptic connectivity between RE inputs and dendrites in the SLM. Control experiments demonstrate that the observed changes are due to extinction and not caused by simple exposure to the context. Extinction learning also induced increases in the size (volume and surface area) of the post-synaptic density (PSD) in SLM. To establish the functional role of RE inputs to dCA1, the researchers used an inhibitory DREADD to silence this pathway during extinction learning. They observe that extinction memory (measured 2-hours or 24-hours later) is impaired by this inhibition. Control experiments show that the extinction memory deficit is not simply due to increased freezing caused by inactivation of the pathway or injections of CNO. Inhibiting the RO projection during extinction learning also reduced the levels of PSD-95 protein levels in the spines of dCA1 neurons.

      Strengths:

      Based on their results, the authors conclude that, "the RE→SLM pathway participates in the updating of fearful context value by actively regulating CFE-induced molecular and structural synaptic plasticity in the SLM.". I believe the data are generally consistent with this hypothesis, although there is an important control condition missing from the behavioral experiments.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) A defining feature of extinction learning is that it is context specific (Bouton, 2004). It is expressed where it was learned, but not in other environments. Similarly, it has been shown that internal contexts (or states) also modulate the expression of extinction (Bouton, 1990). For example, if a drug is administered during extinction learning, it can induce a specific internal state. If this state is not present during subsequent testing, the expression of extinction is impaired just as it is when the physical context is altered (Bouton, 2004). It is possible that something similar is happening in Figure 6. In these experiments, CNO is administered to inactivate the RE-dCA1 projection during extinction learning. The authors observe that this manipulation impairs the expression of extinction the next day (or 2-hours later). However, the drug is not given again during the test. Therefore, it is possible that CNO (and/or inactivation of the RE-dCA1 pathway) induces a state change during extinction that is not present during subsequent testing. Based on the literature cited above, this would be expected to disrupt fear extinction as the authors observed. To determine if this alternative explanation is correct, the researchers need to add groups that receive CNO during extinction training and subsequent extinction testing. If the deficits in extinction expression reported in Figure 6 result from a state change, then these groups should not exhibit an impairment. In contrast, if the authors' account is correct, then the expression of extinction should still be disrupted in mice that receive CNO during training and testing.

      We do agree with the reviewer that such an experiment would be interesting. However, it could be also confusing as we could not distinguish whether the possible behavioral effects are related to the state-dependent aspects of CFE or impaired recall of CFE. Importantly, previous studies showed that RE is crucial for extinction recall (Totty et al., 2023). We also show that CFE memory is impaired not only when the animals recall CFE without CNO (day 3) but also with CNO (day 4) (Figure 6C). Moreover, we do not see the effects of CNO on CFE in the control groups (Figure 6D and H). So we believe that it is unlikely that CNO results in state-dependent CFE.

      (2) In their analysis of dCA1 synapses after contextual fear extinction (CFE) (Figure 4), the authors should have compared Ctx and Ctx-Ctx animals against naïve animals (as they did in Figure 3) when comparing 5US and Ext with naïve animals. Otherwise, the authors cannot make the following conclusion; "since changes of SLM synapses were not observed in the animals exposed to the familiar context that was not associated with the USs, our data support the role of the described structural plasticity at the RE→SLM synapses in CFE, rather than in processing contextual information in general.".

      We assume that the key experimental groups to conclude about synaptic plasticity related to particular behavior are the groups that differ just by one factor/experience. For CFE that would be mice sacrificed immediately before and after CFE session (Figure 2 & 3); on the other hand to conclude about the effects of the re-exposure to the neutral context mice sacrificed before and after second exposure to the neutral context are needed (Figure 4). The naive group, as it differs by at least two manipulations from the Ext and Ctx-Ctx groups, is interesting but not crucial in both cases. This group would be necessary if we focused on the memories of FC or novel context. However, these topics are not the main focus of the current manuscript. Still, the naive group is shown on Figures 2 & 3 to check if CFE brings spine parameters to the levels observed in mice with low freezing.

      We have re-written the cited paragraph to be more precise in our conclusions.

      "Overall, our data demonstrate that synapses in all dCA1 strata undergo structural or molecular changes relevant to CFC and/or CFE. However, only in SLM CFE-induced synaptic changes are likely to be directly regulated by RE inputs as they appear on RE+ dendrites and spines. Since such changes of SLM synapses were not observed in the animals re-exposed to the neutral context, our data support the role of the described structural plasticity at the RE→SLM synapses in CFE, rather than in processing contextual information in general."

      (3) In the materials and methods section, the description of cannula placements is confusing and needs to be rewritten.

      This section has been rewritten.

      ln 103: “Cannula placement. Mice were anesthetized by inhalation of 3–5% isoflurane (IsoFlo; Abbott Animal Health) in oxygen and positioned in a stereotaxic frame (51503, Stoelting, Wood Dale, IL, USA). Two holes were drilled in the skull, and a double guide cannulae (2 mm apart and 2 mm long; 26GA, Plastics One) was lowered into the holes such that the cannula tip was located over dorsal CA1 area (2 mm posterior to bregma, ±1 mm lateral, and −1.3 mm vertical). Cannulae were kept patent by using 33-gauge internal dummy cannulae (Plastics One). The animals were used in contextual fear conditioning 21 days after the cannulation. Animals received bilateral CNO (3 μM, 0.2 μl per side for 1 min; Tocris Bioscience, Cat. No. 4936) (Stachniak et al., 2014) or saline injections (0.2 μl per side) 30 minutes before Extinction session via intrahippocampal injection cannulae (33-gauge). After the infusion, the cannula was left in place for 30 seconds. The cannula placement was verified by histology, and only data from animals with correct cannula implants were included in statistical analyses.”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Other/ Minor:

      In the beginning of the second paragraph on p. 21 of the Results section, it states that "RE-dCA1 has no effect on working memory," although it was not clear what data the authors were referring to support this conclusion.

      We refer there to the changes of freezing behavior within the CFE session. This is explained now.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      No statement about code and data availability is present.

      The statements are added.

      ln 785: “Row data and the code used for analysis of confocal data is available at OSF (https://osf.io/bnkpx/).”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      The authors are trying to develop a microscopy system that generates data output exceeding the previous systems based on huge objectives. 

      Strengths: 

      They have accomplished building such a system, with a field of view of 1.5x1.0 cm2 and a resolution of up to 1.2 um. They have also demonstrated their system performance on samples such as organoids, brain sections, and embryos. 

      Weaknesses: 

      To be used as a volumetric imaging technique, the authors only showcase the implementation of multi-focal confocal sectioning. On the other hand, most of the real biological samples were acquired under wide-field illumination, and processed with so-called computational sectioning. Despite the claim that it improves the contrast, sometimes I felt that the images were oversharpened and the quantitative nature of these fluorescence images may be perturbed. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      This manuscript introduced a volumetric trans-scale imaging system with an ultra-large field-of-view (FOV) that enables simultaneous observation of millions of cellular dynamics in centimeter-wide 3D tissues and embryos. In terms of technique, this paper is just a minor improvement of the authors' previous work, which is a fluorescence imaging system working at visible wavelength region (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95930-7). 

      Strengths: 

      In this study, the authors enhanced the system's resolution and sensitivity by increasing the numerical aperture (NA) of the lens. Furthermore, they achieved volumetric imaging by integrating optical sectioning and computational sectioning. This study encompasses a broad range of biological applications, including imaging and analysis of organoids, mouse brains, and quail embryos, respectively. Overall, this method is useful and versatile. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The unique application that only can be done by this high-throughput system remains vague. Meanwhile, there are also several outstanding issues in this paper, such as the lack of technical advances, unclear method details, and nonstandardized figures. 

      Here, we address the first part of the Weaknesses concerning the unique application, and will respond to the latter part in the Reply to the Recommendations.

      We are developing 'large field of view with cellular resolution' imaging technique, aiming to apply it to the observation of multicellular systems consisting of a large number of cells. Our proposed optical system has achieved optical performance that enables simultaneous observation of more than one million cells in a single field of view. In this paper, we have succeeded in adding three-dimensional imaging capability while maintaining the size of this two-dimensional field of view. By simultaneously observing the dynamics of a large number of cells, we can reveal spatio-temporal sequences in state transitions (pattern formation, pathogenesis, embryogenesis, etc.) in multicellular systems and discover cells that serve as a starting point. These were mentioned in the 1st and 2nd paragraphs of the Introduction section (Line 48-, 58-) and discussed in the 4th paragraph of Discussion section (Line 398-) of the main text. While our previous work on two-dimensional specimens has shown its validity, the present work demonstrated that temporal changes of multicellular systems in three-dimensional specimens can be observed at the single-cell level.

      Ideally, we aim to achieve the same level of depth observation capability as the FOV size in the lateral direction. However, at present, the penetration depth for living specimens is limited to a few hundred micrometers due to non-transparency, while the lateral FOV size exceeds 1 cm. The current optical performance is well-suited for systems where development occurs within a thin volume but a large area, such as the quail embryo presented in this paper (Fig. 6 in the revised manuscript). In addition to quail embryos, this technique can also be applied to the developmental systems of highly transparent model organisms, such as zebrafish. Furthermore, for chemically cleared specimens, even those thicker than 1.5 mm, as shown in this paper (Fig. 5 in the revised manuscript), can be observed. Besides organs other than the brain, it could also be applied to imaging entire living organisms. However, for observation depths up to 10 mm, such as in the whole mouse brain, a mechanism to compensate for spherical aberration is required, which we consider the next step in our technological development.

      Recommendations for the authors: 

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      (1) I suggest that authors shall re-examine the quantitative nature of their image processing algorithm. Also, I wonder whether there are parameters that could be adjusted, as images in Figure 3D and 4E seem to be oversharpened with potential loss of information. 

      As the reviewer pointed out, we recognized that there was an insufficient explanation of the image processing.

      Therefore, descriptions on the quantitative nature and parameter adjustments have been added to the text (Materials and Methods, Line 552) and the Supplementary File (Fig. S4-5, Note 2), and these have been referenced in the main text. A summary is given below.

      The adjustable parameters in our method include the cutoff frequency of the smoothing filter used in the background light estimation. If the cutoff frequency is too high, the focal plane component will be included in the “background”; if it is too low, background light will remain in the focal plane. The cutoff frequency needs to be optimized within this range. In this optimization, neither the size of the cell itself nor the performance of the optical system was considered; instead, we utilized the concept of independent component analysis (ICA). This approach is taken because the size and structure of cells vary from sample to sample, and the optical properties also vary with wavelength and location, making it impractical to consider each factor for every case. ICA employs a blind separation method, which is based on the principle that individual signals deviate from the normal (Gaussian) distribution, while the superimposition of signals tends to bring the distribution closer to the Gaussian distribution. Several indices have been proposed to quantify the non-Gaussian nature of the distribution, including kurtosis, skewness, negentropy, and mutual information. Among these measures, we empirically found skewness to be the most suitable and robust, and therefore adopted it for our algorithm. The optimal parameters were selected using a subset of the data before applying the calculations of the entire dataset. The determined values were then applied to the entire dataset.

      Regarding the oversharpening, we believe that it rarely occurs in the image data shown in the manuscript. In a case where low-frequency structures and high-frequency structures are mixed in the focal plane, oversharpeninglike effect can occur because of the disappearance of low-frequency structures, which is discussed in Supplementary File (Note 2, Figs. S5D). However, in the case of a sample with nearly uniform spatial frequency, such as the nucleus observed in this study, oversharpening is unlikely to occur by setting appropriate parameters as described above. If it appears that some images are oversharpened in the figures, it is due to the contrast of the image.

      (2) On the other hand, I am curious how a wide-field fluorescence system may reliably extract information from a denselylabeled sample within axial volume of 200 um, as they showed in the mouse brain in Figure 4. Thus I am skeptical regarding the fidelity and completeness of the signals and cells recorded there. It would be ideal if the authors could benchmark their system performance with a two-photon microscope system, which serves as the ground truth. 

      The reviewer's suggestion is reasonable; however, we are unfortunately unable to observe the same sample using a two-photon microscope. Instead, we will explain these differences from a theoretical perspective. Two-photon microscopes used for brain imaging typically employ objective lenses with a numerical aperture (NA) of at least 0.5, allowing for 3D imaging with depth resolution ranging from several micrometers down to sub-micrometer levels. In contrast, our method uses a lens system with NA of 0.25, and the optical configuration (focusing NA, pinhole size) are not optimized for resolution (Note 2 in Supplementary File), thus the longitudinal resolution (FWHM) is about 14 microns (Fig. 3E in the revised manuscript). This difference is significant in the brain imaging, where our method may not fully separate all cells in close proximity along the depth axis, as shown in the bottom panels (xz-plane) of Fig. 5F of the revised manuscript. Nevertheless, we believe that cell nuclei can be accurately detected in this 3D image using appropriate cell detection methods based on deep learning. To support this claim, we conducted cell detection using the state-of-the-art cell detection platform ELEPHANT and incorporated the results into Fig. 5 (Fig. 5G-I). This figure demonstrates that even with the current spatial resolution, accurate detection of cell nuclei is achievable.

      We accordingly added one paragraph (Line 285) in the main text to explain the cell detection method and discuss the results. We also added one section into Materials and Methods for more detail of the cell detection (Line 650).

      In conjunction with the revision, the developer of ELEPHANT (K. Sugawara) has been included as a co-author.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      In my opinion, the following concerns need to be addressed. 

      Major comments: 

      (1) The proposed system's crucial element involves the development of a giant lens system with a numerical aperture (NA) of 0.25. However, a comprehensive introduction and explanation of this significant giant lens system are missing from the manuscript. I strongly suggest that the authors supplement the relevant content to provide a clearer understanding of this integral component. 

      A detailed description of the giant lens system has been added to the main text (Optical Configuration and Performance, Line 83) and the Materials and Methods section (Wide -field imaging system (AMATERAS-2w) configuration, Line 446). A diagram of the lens configuration has also been included in Fig. 1A. In conjunction with these additions, two engineers from SIGMAKOKI CO. LTD., who made significant contributions to the design and manufacturing of the lens system, have been included as co-authors.

      (2) The manuscript introduces a computational sectioning technique, based on iteratively filtering technology. However, the accuracy of this algorithm is not sufficiently validated. 

      It is challenging to discuss accuracy of the processing results compared to the ground truth, because the ground truth is unknown for any of the experiments. Instead, in the Supplementary File (Notes 2, Figures S4-5), we show how the processing results for the measured and simulated data vary with the parameter (cutoff frequency), illustrating the characteristics of our method. The results suggest that by optimally pre-selecting the parameter, it is possible to successfully separate the in-focus and out-of-focus components. This discussion is related to our response to the first recommendation made by the reviewer #1. Please review our response to Reviewer #1 regarding parameter optimization and oversharpening. Here, as an addition, we describe a discussion of the conditions that must be met in order to perform the calculation correctly, as described below (also included in Note 2, Limitation of the computational sectioning).

      To apply this method, certain requirements must be met regarding cutoff spatial frequency and intensity. Regarding cutoff spatial frequency, the algorithm utilizes a low-pass filter with a single cutoff frequency, which can make it challenging to accurately extract structures in the focal plane when structures of varying sizes and shapes are mixed within the sample. This is illustrated by the simulation shown in Fig. S5 and described in Note 2. Conversely, regarding intensity, if the structure’s intensity in the focal plane is weak compared to the Gaussian fluctuations in the background intensity, it becomes difficult to extract the structure. However, intensity fluctuations can be reduced by applying a 3x3 moving average filter to the entire image as a pre-processing step before applying the baseline estimation algorithm. 

      In the experimental data presented in this paper (Figs. 4-6 in the revised manuscript), the spatial frequency issue was not significant because the target structures, which are stained nuclei, appear to be of nearly uniform size in the focal plane. The second issue, related to intensity, is also addressed in Fig. 4, as the signal intensity from the focal plane is sufficient to overcome background light in almost all regions. In the mouse brain example, the use of confocal imaging suppresses background light, allowing the structures in the focal plane to be accurately extracted.

      (3) I didn't see a detailed description of the confocal imaging in the manuscript. If it adheres to conventional confocal technology, then the question arises: what truly constitutes the novel aspect of this technique? 

      The principle of confocal imaging and optics is based on the use of a pinhole array, a system also employed commercially by CrestOptics (X-Light, Italy). Prior to the 1990s, when the configuration utilizing Yokogawa Electric's pinhole array and microlens array pairs became popular, pinhole array-only setups were the norm, and are now considered somewhat traditional. We do not claim novelty in the optical configuration itself, but rather in the design of a confocal optical system tailored for our original large-field (low-magnification) imaging system with a relatively high NA. The pinhole array disk we designed features significantly smaller pinholes and correspondingly tighter pinhole spacing than those used for high-magnification observation purposes. We believe that this unique size and arrangement provides sufficient novelty.

      We have revised the manuscript to clearly emphasize what we believe constitutes the novelty of this technique (paragraphs starting from Line 166 and Line 183). We have also added a discussion on our confocal optical configuration and its spatial resolution in the Supplementary File (Note 1, Fig. S2-3).

      (4) Light-sheet and light-field microscopy, as two emerging 3D microscopy techniques which has theoretically higher throughput than confocal, are not sufficiently introduced in this manuscript. 

      In the previous version, we briefly mentioned light-sheet and light-field microscopy, but we recognized that more detailed explanations were necessary and should be included in the manuscript. We have added several sentences to the main text (Line 159-165). A summary is provided below. 

      Light-sheet microscopy requires the illumination light to propagate over long distances within the specimen, and many applications necessitate the use of transparency-enhanced tissue. Even when the sample is highly transparent, no existing technique can form thin optical sections as long as 1 cm. Therefore, light-sheet microscopy is not an effective method for the thin, wide, three-dimensional objects that are the focus of this project. Regarding light-field microscopy, it features a trade-off where the number of pixels in the two-dimensional plane is reduced in exchange for the ability to record three-dimensional fluorescence distribution information in a single shot. In our imaging system, the pixel spacing is set to be comparable to the Nyquist Frequency to observe as many cells as possible, meaning that no more additional pixels can be sacrificed. Therefore, the light-field microscopy technique is not suitable for our imaging system.

      (5) The fluorescence images of cardiomyocytes derived from human induced pluripotent stem cells (hiPSCs) stained with Rhodamine phalloidin, as presented in Figure 1(E), exhibit suboptimal quality. This may hinder the effective use of the image for biological research. It is imperative that the authors address and explain this aspect, shedding light on the limitations and potential implications of the research findings. 

      We acknowledge the reviewer’s concern regarding the suboptimal quality of the fluorescence image. Upon further examination, we recognized that the resolution and clarity of the image could potentially limit its utility for detailed biological analysis. To address this, we have re-examined the image size and quality to enhance its presentation in Fig. 2C-E in the revised manuscript, which allows for finer structures to be recognized within the large image size.

      Regarding the effective use of the image for biological research, the results shown in the images indicated the capability of observing subcellular structures, such as myofibrils, in cell sheets with a large area, such as myocardial sheets. This would enable us to simultaneously investigate micro-level structures (orientation and density of myofibrils) and macro-level multicellular dynamics (performance of myocardial sheet). We added the above explanation in the manuscript (Line 146). We hope this revision clarifies the quality and utility of the presented image.

      (6) The imaging quality difference between the two techniques shown in Figure 1F, G is relatively small, and the signal distribution difference shown in Figure H is significant, unlike the effects expected from an improvement in resolution. 

      We acknowledge the reviewer's concern regarding the minimal apparent difference in imaging quality between the two images. Upon re-evaluation, we recognized that the original presentation may not have clearly demonstrated the improvements intended by the different techniques. Figure 1H, which showed the line profile of Figs. 1F and G, may have been impacted by the resolution and compression settings of the image file, leading to a less pronounced distinction between the two techniques. To address this, we have enlarged Figs 1F and 1G

      (renumbered as Fig. 2D and 2E in the revised manuscript) and carefully reviewed the resolution and compression ratio to ensure that the differences are more clearly visible. 

      (7) The chart in Figure 2(C) lacks axis titles and numerical labels, making it challenging for readers to comprehend. To enhance reader convenience, it is recommended that the authors incorporate axis titles and numerical labels, providing a clearer context for interpreting the chart. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s observation regarding the lack of axis titles and numerical labels in the figure. The vertical axis represents fluorescence intensity, which we initially omitted, assuming it was self-evident. However, as the reviewer correctly pointed out, it is crucial to ensure that figures are clear and accessible to readers from diverse backgrounds. In response, we have added the vertical axis title to Fig. 2C (renumbered as Fig. 3C in the revised manuscript) to enhance clarity, while the numerical labels remain omitted as the unit is arbitrary (a.u.). We have also reviewed all other figures in the manuscript to ensure that no similar errors are present.

      (8) In Figures 2(D) and (E), where the authors present the point spread function for quantifying the lateral and axial resolution of the system, I would recommend increasing the number of fluorescent microspheres to more than 10 for statistical averaging. This adjustment would strengthen the persuasiveness of the data and contribute to a more robust analysis. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s recommendation to increase the number of fluorescent microspheres for statistical averaging in Figs. 2D and E (renumbered as Fig. 3D-E in the revised manuscript). In response, we have revised the graphs to present the point spread function with the statistical mean and standard deviation (SD) of fluorescent images obtained from a large sample size (N = 100), and accordingly revised the main text to mention the statistics (Line 118, Line 132). We also recognized that a similar adjustment was necessary for Figs 1C and D (renumbered as Fig. 2A-B in the revised manuscript), and have accordingly made the same modifications to those figures as well. We believe these changes enhance the robustness and persuasiveness of our data.

      (9) Figure 4(C) visually represents the characteristic 3D structures of several regions. However, discerning the 3D structural information in the images poses a challenge. To address this issue, I recommend that the authors optimize the 3D visualization to improve clarity and facilitate a more effective interpretation of the depicted structures. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion regarding the challenges in discerning the 3D structural information in Fig. 4C. To address this, we have added representative images from the xy-plane and xz-plane of the cortex, medial habenula, and choroid plexus (Fig. 5G-I) in the revised manuscript. These additions provide a clearer visualization of the 3D distribution in each region, making it easier for readers to interpret the structures. Additionally, we have overlaid the results of deep-learning based cell detection on these images, further enhancing the visibility of the cells. This adjustment also aligns with our response to Reviewer #1's second comment.

      Minor comments: 

      (1) The labelling of ROI is missing in Figure 1(e). 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s observation regarding the missing labeling of the ROI in Fig. 1E. Upon review, we confirmed that the ROI was indeed labeled with a white square in the previous manuscript; however, it was difficult to discern due to its small size and the black-and-white contrast. To improve visibility, we have recolored the square in magenta, ensuring that it stands out more clearly in the figure (Fig. 2C in the revised manuscript).

      (2) The subfigure order and labeling in Fig. 1 and Fig. 2 are not consistent.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s attention to the subfigure order and labeling in Fig. 1 and 2 (Fig. 1-3 in the revised manuscript). To accommodate subfigures of varying sizes without leaving gaps, we arranged the subfigures in a non-sequential order. However, we have ensured that the text refers to the figures in the correct order. We acknowledge the importance of consistency and will work with the editorial team to explore the best way to present the figures while maintaining clarity and alignment with standard practices.

      (3) Figure 1B reappears in Figure 2.  

      We appreciate the reviewer’s observation regarding the repetition of Figure 1B in Figure 2. While the central part of the optical system (custom lens system) is common to both figures, the illumination system, pinhole array disk, and detection optics for the confocal set up differ. To provide a complete understanding of the optical system, we opted to include the full diagram in Fig. 2B (renumbered as Fig. 3B in the revised manuscript). We considered highlighting only the different components, but we felt that doing so might complicate the reader’s comprehension of the overall system. Therefore, we chose to include the common elements twice to ensure clarity.

    1. Author response:

      We would like to extend our sincere thanks to you and reviewers at eLife for their thoughtful handling of our manuscript and their valuable feedback, which will greatly improve our study.

      We are committed to performing the additional experiments as recommended by the reviewers. However, we would like to clarify our study's focus. 

      The novelty of our study lies in the highlights of our manuscript:

      • The formation of HIV-induced CPSF6 puncta is critical for restoring HIV-1 nuclear reverse transcription (RT).

      • CPSF6 protein lacking the FG peptide cannot bind to the viral core, thereby failing to form HIVinduced CPSF6 puncta.

      • The FG peptide, rather than low-complexity regions (LCRs) or the mixed charge domains (MCDs) of the CPSF6 protein, drives the formation of HIV-induced CPSF6 puncta.

      • HIV-induced CPSF6 puncta form individually and later fuse with nuclear speckles (NS) via the intrinsically disordered region (IDR) of SRRM2.

      By focusing on these processes, we believe our study provides a critical perspective on the molecular interactions that mediate the formation of HIV-induced CPSF6 puncta and broadens the understanding of how HIV manipulates host nuclear architecture.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      In recent years, our understanding of the nuclear steps of the HIV-1 life cycle has made significant advances. It has emerged that HIV-1 completes reverse transcription in the nucleus and that the host factor CPSF6 forms condensates around the viral capsid. The precise function of these CPSF6 condensates is under investigation, but it is clear that the HIV-1 capsid protein is required for their formation. This study by Tomasini et al. investigates the genesis of the CPSF6 condensates induced by HIV-1 capsid, what other co-factors may be required, and their relationship with nuclear speckels (NS). The authors show that disruption of the condensates by the drug PF74, added post-nuclear entry, blocks HIV-1 infection, which supports their functional role. They generated CPSF6 KO THP-1 cell lines, in which they expressed exogenous CPSF6 constructs to map by microscopy and pull down assays of the regions critical for the formation of condensates. This approach revealed that the LCR region of CPSF6 is required for capsid binding but not for condensates whereas the FG region is essential for both. Using SON and SRRM2 as markers of NS, the authors show that CPSF6 condensates precede their merging with NS but that depletion of SRRM2, or SRRM2 lacking the IDR domain, delays the genesis of condensates, which are also smaller. 

      The study is interesting and well conducted and defines some characteristics of the CPSF6-HIV-1 condensates. Their results on the NS are valuable. The data presented are convincing. 

      I have two main concerns. Firstly, the functional outcome of the various protein mutants and KOs is not evaluated. Although Figure 1 shows that disruption of the CPSF6 puncta by PF74 impairs HIV-1 infection, it is not clear if HIV-1 infection is at all affected by expression of the mutant CPSF6 forms (and SRRM2 mutants) or KO/KD of the various host factors. The cell lines are available, so it should be possible to measure HIV-1 infection and reverse transcription. Secondly, the authors have not assessed if the effects observed on the NS impact HIV-1 gene expression, which would be interesting to know given that NS are sites of highly active gene transcription. With the reagents at hand, it should be possible to investigate this too. 

      We thank the reviewer for her/his valuable feedback on our manuscript. We are pleased to see her/his appreciation of our results, and we will do our utmost to address the highlighted points to further improve our work.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      HIV-1 infection induces CPSF6 aggregates in the nucleus that contain the viral protein CA. The study of the functions and composition of these nuclear aggregates have raised considerable interest in the field, and they have emerged as sites in which reverse transcription is completed and in the proximity of which viral DNA becomes integrated. In this work, the authors have mutated several regions of the CPSF6 protein to identify the domains important for nuclear aggregation, in addition to the alreadyknown FG region; they have characterized the kinetics of fusion between CPSF6 aggregates and SC35 nuclear speckles and have determined the role of two nuclear speckle components in this process (SRRM2, SUN2). 

      Strengths: 

      The work examines systematically the domains of CPSF6 of importance for nuclear aggregate formation in an elegant manner in which these mutants complement an otherwise CPSF6-KO cell line. In addition, this work evidences a novel role for the protein SRRM2 in HIV-induced aggregate formation, overall advancing our comprehension of the components required for their formation and regulation. 

      Weaknesses: 

      Some of the results presented in this manuscript, in particular the kinetics of fusion between CPSF6aggregates and SC35 speckles have been published before (PMID: 32665593; 32997983). 

      The observations of the different effects of CPSF6 mutants, as well as SRRM2/SUN2 silencing experiments are not complemented by infection data which would have linked morphological changes in nuclear aggregates to function during viral infection. More importantly, these functional data could have helped stratify otherwise similar morphological appearances in CPSF6 aggregates. 

      Overall, the results could be presented in a more concise and ordered manner to help focus the attention of the reader on the most important issues. Most of the figures extend to 3-4 different pages and some information could be clearly either aggregated or moved to supplementary data. 

      First, we thank the reviewer for her/his appreciation of our study and to give to us the opportunity to better explain our results and to improve our manuscript. We appreciate the reviewer’s positive feedback on our study, and we will do our best to address her/his concerns. In the meantime, we would like to clarify the focus of our study. Our research does not aim to demonstrate an association between CPSF6 condensates (we use the term "condensates" rather than "aggregates," as aggregates are generally non-dynamic (Alberti & Hyman, 2021; Banani et al., 2017), and our work specifically examines the dynamic behavior of CPSF6 during infection, as shown in Scoca et al., JMCB 2022) and SC35 nuclear speckles. This association has already been established in previous studies, as noted in the manuscript.

      About the point highlighted by the reviewer: "Kinetics of fusion between CPSF6-aggregates and SC35 speckles have been published before (PMID: 32665593; 32997983)."

      Our study differs from prior work PMID 32665593 because we utilize a full-length HIV genome and we did not follow the integrase (IN) fluorescence in trans and its association with CPSF6 but we specifically assess if CPSF6 clusters form in the nucleus independently of NS factors and next to fuse with them. In the current study we evaluated the dynamics of formation of CPSF6/NS puncta, which it has not been explored before. Given this focus, we believe that our work offers a novel perspective on the molecular interactions that facilitate HIV / CPSF6-NS fusion.

      For better clarity, we would like to specify that our study focuses on the role of SON, a scaffold factor of nuclear speckles, rather than SUN2 (SUN domain-containing protein 2), which is a component of the LINC (Linker of Nucleoskeleton and Cytoskeleton) complex.

      As suggested by the reviewer, we will keep key information in the main figure and move additional details to the supplementary material.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review): 

      In this study, the authors investigate the requirements for the formation of CPSF6 puncta induced by HIV-1 under a high multiplicity of infection conditions. Not surprisingly, they observe that mutation of the Phe-Gly (FG) repeat responsible for CPSF6 binding to the incoming HIV-1 capsid abrogates CPSF6 punctum formation. Perhaps more interestingly, they show that the removal of other domains of CPSF6, including the mixed-charge domain (MCD), does not affect the formation of HIV-1-induced CPSF6 puncta. The authors also present data suggesting that CPSF6 puncta form individual before fusing with nuclear speckles (NSs) and that the fusion of CPSF6 puncta to NSs requires the intrinsically disordered region (IDR) of the NS component SRRM2. While the study presents some interesting findings, there are some technical issues that need to be addressed and the amount of new information is somewhat limited. Also, the authors' finding that deletion of the CPSF6 MCD does not affect the formation of HIV-1-induced CPSF6 puncta contradicts recent findings of Jang et al. (doi.org/10.1093/nar/gkae769). 

      We thank the reviewer for her/his thoughtful feedback and the opportunity to elaborate on why our findings provide a distinct perspective compared to those of Jang et al. (doi.org/10.1093/nar/gkae769), while aligning with the results of Rohlfes et al. (doi.org/10.1101/2024.06.20.599834).

      One potential reason for the differences between our findings and those of Jang et al. could be the choice of experimental systems. Jang et al. conducted their study in HEK293T cells with CPSF6 knockouts, as described in Sowd et al., 2016 (doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1524213113). In contrast, our work focused on macrophage-like THP-1 cells, which share closer characteristics with HIV-1’s natural target cells. 

      Our approach utilized a complete CPSF6 knockout in THP-1 cells, enabling us to reintroduce untagged versions of CPSF6, such as wild-type and deletion mutants, to avoid potential artifacts from tagging. Jang et al. employed HA-tagged CPSF6 constructs, which may lead to subtle differences in experimental outcomes due to the presence of the tag.

      Finally, our investigation into the IDR of SRRM2 relied on CRISPR-PAINT to generate targeted deletions directly in the endogenous gene (Lester et al., 2021, DOI: 10.1016/j.neuron.2021.03.026). This approach provided a native context for studying SRRM2’s role.

      We will incorporate these clarifications into the discussion section of the revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This work makes several contributions: (1) a method for the self-supervised segmentation of cells in 3D microscopy images, (2) an cell-segmented dataset comprising six volumes from a mesoSPIM sample of a mouse brain, and (3) a napari plugin to apply and train the proposed method.

      First, thanks for acknowledging our contributions of a new tool, new dataset, and new software.

      (1) Method

      This work presents itself as a generalizable method contribution with a wide scope: self-supervised 3D cell segmentation in microscopy images. My main critique is that there is almost no evidence for the proposed method to have that wide of a scope. Instead, the paper is more akin to a case report that shows that a particular self-supervised method is good enough to segment cells in two datasets with specific properties.

      First, thanks for acknowledging our contributions of a new tool, new dataset, and new software. We agree we focus on lightsheet microscopy data, therefore to narrow the scope we have changed the title to “CellSeg3D: self-supervised 3D cell segmentation for light-sheet microscopy”.

      To support the claim that their method "address[es] the inherent complexity of quantifying cells in 3D volumes", the method should be evaluated in a comprehensive study including different kinds of light and electron microscopy images, different markers, and resolutions to cover the diversity of microscopy images that both title and abstract are alluding to.

      You have selectively dropped the last part of that sentence that is key: “.... 3D volumes, often in cleared neural tissue” – which is what we tackle. The next sentence goes on to say: “We offer a new 3D mesoSPIM dataset and show that CellSeg3D can match state-of-the-art supervised methods.” Thus, we literally make it clear our claims are on MesoSPIM and cleared data.

      The main dataset used here (a mesoSPIM dataset of a whole mouse brain) features well-isolated cells that are easily distinguishable from the background. Otsu thresholding followed by a connected component analysis already segments most of those cells correctly.

      This is not the case, as all the other leading methods we fairly benchmark cannot solve the task without deep learning (i.e., no method is at an F1-Score of 1).

      The proposed method relies on an intensity-based segmentation method (a soft version of a normalized cut) and has at least five free parameters (radius, intensity, and spatial sigma for SoftNCut, as well as a morphological closing radius, and a merge threshold for touching cells in the post-processing). Given the benefit of tweaking parameters (like thresholds, morphological operation radii, and expected object sizes), it would be illuminating to know how other non-learning-based methods will compare on this dataset, especially if given the same treatment of segmentation post-processing that the proposed method receives. After inspecting the WNet3D predictions (using the napari plugin) on the used datasets I find them almost identical to the raw intensity values, casting doubt as to whether the high segmentation accuracy is really due to the self-supervised learning or instead a function of the post-processing pipeline after thresholding.

      First, thanks for testing our tool, and glad it works for you. The deep learning methods we use cannot “solve” this dataset, and we also have a F1-Score (dice) of ~0.8 with our self-supervised method. We don’t see the value in applying non-learning methods; this is unnecessary and beyond the scope of this work.

      I suggest the following baselines be included to better understand how much of the segmentation accuracy is due to parameter tweaking on the considered datasets versus a novel method contribution:

      *  comparison to thresholding (with the same post-processing as the proposed method) * comparison to a normalized cut segmentation (with the same post-processing as the proposed method)

      *  comparison to references 8 and 9.

      Ref 8 and 9 don’t have readily usable (https://github.com/LiangHann/USAR) or even shared code (https://github.com/Kaiseem/AD-GAN), so re-implementing this work is well beyond the bounds of this paper. We benchmarked Cellpose, StartDist, SegResNets, and a transformer – SwinURNet. Moreover, models in the MONAI package can be used. Note, to our knowledge the transformer results also are a new contribution that the Reviewer does not acknowledge.

      I further strongly encourage the authors to discuss the limitations of their method. From what I understand, the proposed method works only on well-separated objects (due to the semantic segmentation bottleneck), is based on contrastive FG/BG intensity values (due to the SoftNCut loss), and requires tuning of a few parameters (which might be challenging if no ground-truth is available).

      We added text on limitations. Thanks for this suggestion.

      (2) Dataset

      I commend the authors for providing ground-truth labels for more than 2500 cells. I would appreciate it if the Methods section could mention how exactly the cells were labelled. I found a good overlap between the ground truth and Otsu thresholding of the intensity images. Was the ground truth generated by proofreading an initial automatic segmentation, or entirely done by hand? If the former, which method was used to generate the initial segmentation, and are there any concerns that the ground truth might be biased towards a given segmentation method?

      In the already submitted version, we have a 5-page DataSet card that fully answers your questions. They are ALL labeled by hand, without any semi-automatic process.

      In our main text we even stated “Using whole-brain data from mice we cropped small regions and human annotated in 3D 2,632 neurons that were endogenously labeled by TPH2-tdTomato” - clearly mentioning it is human-annotated.

      (3) Napari plugin

      The plugin is well-documented and works by following the installation instructions.

      Great, thanks for the positive feedback.

      However, I was not able to recreate the segmentations reported in the paper with the default settings for the pre-trained WNet3D: segments are generally too large and there are a lot of false positives. Both the prediction and the final instance segmentation also show substantial border artifacts, possibly due to a block-wise processing scheme.

      Your review here does not match your comments above; above you said it was working well, such that you doubt the GT is real and the data is too easy as it was perfectly easy to threshold with non-learning methods.

      You would need to share more details on what you tried. We suggest following our code; namely, we provide the full experimental code and processing for every figure, as was noted in our original submission: https://github.com/C-Achard/cellseg3d-figures.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors propose a new method for self-supervised learning of 3d semantic segmentation for fluorescence microscopy. It is based on a WNet architecture (Encoder / Decoder using a UNet for each of these components) that reconstructs the image data after binarization in the bottleneck with a soft n-cuts clustering. They annotate a new dataset for nucleus segmentation in mesoSPIM imaging and train their model on this dataset. They create a napari plugin that provides access to this model and provides additional functionality for training of own models (both supervised and self-supervised), data labeling, and instance segmentation via post-processing of the semantic model predictions. This plugin also provides access to models trained on the contributed dataset in a supervised fashion.

      Strengths:

      (1) The idea behind the self-supervised learning loss is interesting.

      (2) The paper addresses an important challenge. Data annotation is very time-consuming for 3d microscopy data, so a self-supervised method that yields similar results to supervised segmentation would provide massive benefits.

      Thank you for highlighting the strengths of our work and new contributions.

      Weaknesses:

      The experiments presented by the authors do not adequately support the claims made in the paper. There are several shortcomings in the design of the experiment, presentation of the results, and reproducibility.

      We address your concerns and misunderstandings below.

      Major weaknesses:

      (1) The main experiments are conducted on the new mesoSPIM dataset, which contains quite small nuclei, much smaller than the pretraining datasets of CellPose and StarDist. I assume that this is one of the main reasons why these well-established methods don't work for this dataset.

      StarDist is not pretrained, we trained it from scratch as we did for WNet3D. We retrained Cellpose and reported the results both with their pretrained model and our best-retrained model. This is documented in Figure 1 and Suppl. Figure 1. We also want to push back and say that they both work very well on this data. In fact, our main claim is not that we beat them, it is that we can match them with a self-supervised method.

      Limiting method comparison to only this dataset may create a misleading impression that CellSeg3D is superior for all kinds of 3D nucleus segmentation tasks, whereas this might only hold for small nuclei.

      The GT dataset we labeled has nuclei that are normal brain-cell sized. Moreover in Figure 2 we show very different samples with both dense and noisy (c-FOS) labeling.

      We also clearly do not claim this is superior for all tasks, from our text: “First, we benchmark our methods against Cellpose and StarDist, two leading supervised cell segmentation packages with user-friendly workflows, and show our methods match or outperform them in 3D instance segmentation on mesoSPIM-acquired volumes" – we explicitly do NOT claim beyond the scope of the benchmark. Moreover we state: "We found that WNet3D could be as good or better than the fully supervised models, especially in the low data regime, on this dataset at semantic and instance segmentation" – again noting on this dataset. Again, we only claimed we can be as good as these methods with an unsupervised approach, and in the low-GT data regime we can excel.

      Further, additional preprocessing of the mesoSPIM images may improve results for StarDist and CellPose (see the first point in minor weaknesses). Note: having a method that works better for small nuclei would be an important contribution. But I doubt that the claims hold for larger and or more crowded nuclei as the current version of the paper implies.

      Figure 2 benchmarks our method on larger and denser nuclei, but we do not intend to claim this is a universal tool. It was specifically designed for light-sheet (brain) data, and we have adjusted the title to be more clear. But we also show in Figure 2 it works well on more dense and noisy samples, hinting that it could be a promising approach. But we agree, as-is, it’s unlikely to be good for extremely dense samples like in electron microscopy, which we never claim it would be.

      With regards to preprocessing, we respectfully disagree. We trained StarDist (and asked the main developer of StarDist, Martin Weigert, to check our work and he is acknowledged in the paper) and it does very well. Cellpose we also retrained and optimized and we show it works as-well-as leading transformer and CNN-based approaches. Again, we only claimed we can be as good as these methods with an unsupervised approach.

      The contribution of the paper would be much stronger if a **fair** comparison with StarDist / CellPose was also done on the additional datasets from Figure 2.

      We appreciate that more datasets would be ideal, but we always feel it’s best for the authors of tools to benchmark their own tools on data. We only compared others in Figure 1 to the new dataset we provide so people get a sense of the quality of the data too; there we did extensive searches for best parameters for those tools. So while we think it would be nice, we will leave it to those authors to be most fair. We also narrowed the scope of our claims to mesoSPIM data (added light-sheet to the title), which none of the other examples in Figure 2 are.

      (2) The experimental setup for the additional datasets seems to be unrealistic. In general, the description of these experiments is quite short and so the exact strategy is unclear from the text. However, you write the following: "The channel containing the foreground was then thresholded and the Voronoi-Otsu algorithm used to generate instance labels (for Platynereis data), with hyperparameters based on the Dice metric with the ground truth." I.e., the hyperparameters for the post-processing are found based on the ground truth. From the description it is unclear whether this is done a) on the part of the data that is then also used to compute metrics or b) on a separate validation split that is not used to compute metrics. If a) this is not a valid experimental setup and amounts to training on your test set. If b) this is ok from an experimental point of view, but likely still significantly overestimates the quality of predictions that can be achieved by manual tuning of these hyperparameters by a user that is not themselves a developer of this plugin or an absolute expert in classical image analysis, see also 3.

      We apologize for this confusion; we have now expanded the methods to clarify the setup is now b; you can see what we exactly did as well in the figure notebook: https://c-achard.github.io/cellseg3d-figures/fig2-b-c-extra-datasets/self-supervised-ext ra.html#threshold-predictions.

      For clarity, we additionally link each individual notebook now in the Methods.

      (3) I cannot reproduce any of the results using the plugin. I tried to reproduce some of the results from the paper qualitatively: First I downloaded one of the volumes from the mesoSPIM dataset (c5image) and applied the WNet3D to it. The prediction looks ok, however the value range is quite close (Average BG intensity ~0.4, FG intensity 0.6-0.7). I try to apply the instance segmentation using "Convert to instance labels" from "Utilities". Using "Voronoi-Otsu" does not work due to an error in pyClesperanto ("clGetPlatformIDs failed: PLATFORM_NOT_FOUND_KHR"). Segmentation via "Connected Components" and "Watershed" requires extensive manual tuning to get a somewhat decent result, which is still far from perfect.

      We are sorry to hear of the installation issue; pyClesperanto is a dependency that would be required to reproduce the images (sounds like you had this issue; https://forum.image.sc/t/pyclesperanto-prototype-doesnt-work/45724 ) We added to our docs now explicitly the fix:https://github.com/AdaptiveMotorControlLab/CellSeg3D/pull/90. We recommend checking the reproduction notebooks (which were linked in initial submission): https://c-achard.github.io/cellseg3d-figures/intro.html.

      Then I tried to reproduce the results for the Mouse Skull Nuclei Dataset from EmbedSeg. The results look like a denoised version of the input image, not a semantic segmentation. I was skeptical from the beginning that the method would transfer without retraining, due to the very different morphology of nuclei (much larger and elongated). None of the available segmentation methods yield a good result, the best I can achieve is a strong over-segmentation with watersheds.

      We are surprised to hear this; did you follow the following notebook which directly produces the steps to create this figure? (This was linked in preprint): https://c-achard.github.io/cellseg3d-figures/fig2-c-extra-datasets/self-supervised-extra .html

      We also expanded the methods to include the exact values from the notebook into the text.

      Minor weaknesses:

      (1) CellPose can work better if images are resized so that the median object size in new images matches the training data. For CellPose the cyto2 model should do this automatically. It would be important to report if this was done, and if not would be advisable to check if this can improve results.

      We reported this value in Figure 1 and found it to work poorly, that is why we retrained Cellpose and found good performance results (also reported in Figure 1). Resizing GB to TB volumes for mesoSPIM data is otherwise not practical, so simply retraining seems the preferable option, which is what we did.

      (2) It is a bit confusing that F1-Score and Dice Score are used interchangeably to evaluate results. The dice score only evaluates semantic predictions, whereas F1-Score evaluates the actual instance segmentation results. I would advise to only use F1-Score, which is the more appropriate metric. For Figure 1f either the mean F1 score over thresholds or F1 @ 0.5 could be reported. Furthermore, I would advise adopting the recommendations on metric reporting from https://www.nature.com/articles/s41592-023-01942-8.

      We are using the common metrics in the field for instance and semantic segmentation, and report them in the methods. In Figure 2f we actually report the “Dice” as defined in StarDist (as we stated in the Methods). Note, their implementation is functionally equivalent to F1-Score of an IoU >= 0, so we simply changed this label in the figure now for clarity. We agree this clarifies for the expert readers what was done, and we expanded the methods to be more clear about metrics.

      We added a link to the paper you mention as well.

      (3) A more conceptual limitation is that the (self-supervised) method is limited to intensity-based segmentation, and so will not be able to work for cases where structures cannot be distinguished based on intensity only. It is further unclear how well it can separate crowded nuclei. While some object separation can be achieved by morphological operations this is generally limited for crowded segmentation tasks and the main motivation behind the segmentation objective used in StarDist, CellPose, and other instance segmentation methods. This limitation is only superficially acknowledged in "Note that WNet3D uses brightness to detect objects [...]" but should be discussed in more depth. Note: this limitation does not mean at all that the underlying contribution is not significant, but I think it is important to address this in more detail so that potential users know where the method is applicable and where it isn't.

      We agree, and we added a new section specifically on limitations. Thanks for raising this good point. Thus, while self-supervision comes at the saving of hundreds of manual labor, it comes at the cost of more limited regimes it can work on. Hence why we don’t claim this should replace excellent methods like Cellpose or Stardist, but rather complement them and can be used on mesoSPIM samples, as we show here.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) One of the listed contributions is "adding the SoftNCuts loss". This is not true, reference 10 already introduced that loss.

      “Our changes include a conversion to a fully 3D architecture and adding the SoftNCuts loss” - we dropped the common and added the word “AND” to note that we added the 3D version of the SoftNCuts loss TO the 3D architecture, which 10 did not do.

      (2) "Typically, these methods use a multi-step approach" to segment 3D from 2D: this is only true for CellPose, StarDist does real 3D.

      That is why we preface with “typically” which implies not always.

      (3) "see Methods, Figure 1c, c)" is missing an opening in parentheses.

      (4) K is not introduced in equation (1) (presumably the number of classes, which seems to be 2 for all experiments considered).

      k actually was introduced just below equation 1 as the number of classes. We added the note that k was set to 2.

      (5) X is not introduced in equation (2) (presumably the spatial position of a voxel).

      Sorry for this oversight. We add that $X$ is the spatial position of the voxel.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      To improve the paper the weaknesses mentioned above should be addressed:

      (1) Compare to StarDist and/or CellPose on further datasets, esp. using pre-trained CellPose, to see if the claims of competitive performance with state-of-the-art approaches hold up for the case of different nucleus morphologies. The EmbedSeg datasets from Figure 2 c are well suited for this. In the current form, the claims are too broad and not supported if thorough experiments are performed on a single dataset with a very specific morphology. Note: even if the method is not fully competitive with CellPose / StarDist on these Datasets it holds merit since a segmentation method that works for small nuclei as in the mesoSPIM dataset and works self-supervised is very valuable.

      (2) Clarify how the best instance segmentation hyperparameters are found. If you indeed optimize these on the same part of the dataset used for evaluating metrics then the current experimental set-up is invalid. If this is not the case I would still rethink if this is a good way to report the results since it does not seem to reflect user experience. I found it not possible to find good hyperparameters for either of the two segmentation approaches I tried (see also next point) so I think these numbers are too optimistic.

      (3) Improve the instance segmentation part of the plugin: either provide troubleshooting for how to install pyClesperanto correctly to use the voronoi-based instance segmentation or implement it based on more standard functionality like skimage / scipy. Provide more guidance for finding good hyperparameters for the segmentation task.

      (4) Make sure image resizing is done correctly when using pre-trained CellPose models and report on this.

      (5) Report F1 Scores only (unless there is a compelling reason to also report Dice).

      (6) Address the limitations of the method in more detail.

      On a positive note: all data and code are available and easy to download/install. A minor comment: it would be very helpful to have line numbers for reviewing a revised version.

      All comments are also addressed in the public reviews.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This valuable study provides in vivo evidence for the synchronization of projection neurons in the olfactory bulb at gamma frequency in an activity-dependent manner. This study uses optogenetics in combination with single-cell recordings to selectively activate sensory input channels within the olfactory bulb. The data are thoughtfully analyzed and presented; the evidence is solid, although some of the conclusions are only partially supported.

      We deeply thank all the reviewers for their time, effort, and insightful comments. Their revision led to a significant improvement of the paper.

      The reviewers suggested toning down our claim that we found a mechanism that synchronizes all odor-evoked MTC activities, as we do not directly show that. We concur and address this in our revised version to ensure a precise interpretation of our findings. In short, we state that we revealed a synchronization mechanism between two groups of active mitral and tufted cells (MTCs) and show that this synchronization is activity-dependent and distance-independent. This mechanism can enable the synchronization of all odor-activated MTCs.

      Another issue raised is the interpretation of the results obtained under Ketamine anesthesia. Ketamine is an NMDA receptor antagonist that plays a crucial role in the  MTC-GC reciprocal synapse. To address this, we include new analyses demonstrating that optogenetic activation of granule cells (GCs) can inhibit the recorded MTCs during baseline activity but does not substantially affect odor-evoked MTC firing rates. We show that this is correct in both Ketamine-induced anesthesia and awake mice (Dalal & Haddad, 2022). This indicates that GC-MTC connections are functional even under Ketamine anesthesia, however, they do not exert substantial suppression on odor-evoked MTC responses. We added a paragraph to the discussion section on the potential influence of Ketamine anesthesia on GC-MTC synapses and its implications on our findings.

      Finally, we discuss several recent studies that are particularly relevant to our research and expand the discussion on our hypothesis that parvalbumin-positive cells in the olfactory bulb may serve as key mediators of the activity- and distance-dependent lateral inhibition observed in our findings.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Dalal and Haddad investigated how neurons in the olfactory bulb are synchronized in oscillatory rhythms at gamma frequency. Temporal coordination of action potentials fired by projection neurons can facilitate information transmission to downstream areas. In a previous paper (Dalal and Haddad 2022, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.celrep.2022.110693), the authors showed that gamma frequency synchronization of mitral/tufted cells (MTCs) in the olfactory bulb enhances the response in the piriform cortex. The present study builds on these findings and takes a closer look at how gamma synchronization is restricted to a specific subset of MTCs in the olfactory bulb. They combined odor and optogenetic stimulations in anesthetized mice with extracellular recordings.<br /> The main findings are that lateral synchronization of MTCs at gamma frequency is mediated by granule cells (GCs), independent of the spatial distance, and strongest for MTCs with firing rates close to 40 Hz. The authors conclude that this reveals a simple mechanism by which spatially distributed neurons can form a synchronized ensemble. In contrast to lateral synchronization, they found no evidence for the involvement of GCs in lateral inhibition of nearby MTCs.

      Strengths:

      Investigating the mechanisms of rhythmic synchronization in vivo is difficult because of experimental limitations for the readout and manipulation of neuronal populations at fast timescales. Using spatially patterned light stimulation of opsin-expressing neurons in combination with extracellular recordings is a nice approach. The paper provides evidence for an activity-dependent synchronization of MTCs in gamma frequency that is mediated by GCs.

      Weaknesses:

      An important weakness of the study is the lack of direct evidence for the main conclusion - the synchronization of MTCs in gamma frequency. The data shows that paired optogenetic stimulation of MTCs in different parts of the olfactory bulb increases the rhythmicity of individual MTCs (Figure 1) and that combined odor stimulation and GC stimulation increases rhythmicity and gamma phase locking of individual MTCs (Figure 4). However, a direct comparison of the firing of different MTCs is missing. This could be addressed with extracellular recordings at two different locations in the olfactory bulb. The minimum requirement to support this conclusion would be to show that the MTCs lock to the same phase of the gamma cycle. Also, showing the evoked gamma oscillations would help to interpret the data.

      We agree with the reviewer that direct evidence of mutual synchronization between multiple recorded MTCs has not been shown in our study. Our study only shows a mechanism that can enable this synchronization. We now state this clearly in the manuscript. We based this on previous studies that tested MTC spike synchronization. Specifically, Schoppa 2006, reported that electrical OSN stimulation evokes MTC spikes synchronization in the gamma range, in-vitro. Kashiwadni et al., 1999 and Doucette et al., 2011 showed that odor-evoked MTC spike times are synchronized, in-vivo. Given these studies, we asked what is the underlying mechanism that can support such a synchronization. Our study demonstrates that activating a group of MTCs can entrain another MTC in an activity-dependent and distance-independent manner. We claim this could be the underlying mechanism for the odor-evoked synchronization as demonstrated by these previous studies.

      To make sure this is clearly stated in the manuscript we changed the title to “Activity-dependent lateral inhibition enables the synchronization of active olfactory bulb projection neurons”, and rephrased a sentence in the abstract to “This lateral synchronization was particularly effective when the recorded MTC fired at the gamma rhythm”. To further clarify this point, we made several other changes throughout the results and the discussion section.

      Another weakness is that all experiments are performed under anesthesia with ketamine/medetomidine. Ketamine is an antagonist of NMDA receptors and NMDA receptors are critically involved in the interactions of MTCs and GCs at the reciprocal synapses (see for example Lage-Rupprecht et al. 2020, https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.63737; Egger and Kuner 2021, https://doi.org/10.1007/s00441-020-03402-7). This should be considered for the interpretation of the presented data.

      This issue has been raised by reviewers #1 and #2. We think, as also reviewer #2 acknowledged, that this issue does not compromise our results. However, to address this important point we added the below section to the Discussion:

      “Our experiments were performed under Ketamine anesthesia, an NMDA receptor antagonist that affects the reciprocal dendro-dendritic synapses between MTCs and GCs (Egger and Kuner, 2021; Lage-Rupprecht et al., 2020). Consistent with that, recent studies reported lower excitability of GC activity under anesthesia (Cazakoff et al., 2014; Kato et al., 2012).  This raises the concern that our result might not be valid in the awake state. We argue that this is unlikely. First, (Fukunaga et al., 2014) reported that GCs baseline activity in anesthetized and awake mice is similar, suggesting that MTC-GC synapses are functioning. Second, we show that light activation of GCL neurons strongly inhibits the MTC baseline activity (Figure 5) and increases MTC odor-evoked spike-LFP coupling in the gamma range (Figure 4). These experiments validate that GCL neurons can exert inhibition over MTCs in our experimental setup. Third, we have shown that light-activating all accessible GCL neurons has a minor effect on the MTC odor-evoked firing rates in an awake state (Dalal and Haddad, 2022), corroborating the finding that GCL neurons are unlikely to provide strong suppression to MTCs. Fourth, and most importantly, we showed that optogenetic stimulation of MTCs entrains other MTC spike times, which is achieved via the GCL neurons. This suggests that the lack of lateral suppression following MTC or GCL neuron opto-activation is not due to MTC-GC synapse blockage. That said, we cannot exclude the unlikely possibility that NMDA receptor blockage under anesthesia impairs MTC-to-MTC suppressive interactions but not the MTC-to-MTC mediated spike entrainment.”

      Figure 1A and D from Dalal & Haddad 2022 show the effect of GCL neurons opto-activation during odor stimulation on MTC firing rates in awake and anesthetized mice.

      Furthermore, the direct effect of optogenetic stimulation on GCs activity is not shown. This is particularly important because they use Gad2-cre mice with virus injection in the olfactory bulb and expression might not be restricted to granule cells and might not target all subtypes of granule cells (Wachowiak et al., 2013, https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.4824-12.2013). This should be considered for the interpretation of the data, particularly for the absence of an effect of GC stimulation on lateral inhibition.

      In this study we used Gad2-cre mice, and the protocol for viral transfection of GCL neurons reported in Fukunaga et al., 2014. They reported that: ‘more than 90% of Cre-expressing neurons in the GCL also expressed fluorescently tagged ArchT’. Consistently, when Fukunaga et al. expressed ChR2 in the GCL using the same viral infection as we used, they reported that: ”Light presentation in vivo resulted in rapid and strong depolarization of, and action potential (AP) discharges in, GCs (Fig. 3b), which in

      turn consistently and strongly hyperpolarized M/TCs (9 of 9 cells showed 100% AP suppression; Fig. 3c,d)”. This study shows clearly that this infection protocol is robust. Moreover, in new panels we added to the manuscript (Figure 5a-b), we show that optogenetic activation of GCL neurons strongly suppressed MTC activity during baseline conditions but not odor-evoked responses MTCs. This is consistent with the reports by Fukunaga et al, and indicates that GCL neurons are functional as they can suppress MTC baseline activity.

      Finally, since virus injection to the granule cell layer can target other GCL neuron types, we changed the reference in the text to GCL neurons (as was done in Gschwend et al., 2015) instead of ‘GCs’ when referring to GC. We replaced the image in Figure 4A, to show the expression of ChR2 is restricted to GCL neurons. That said, it is still possible that our protocol did not infect all GC subtypes. To address this, we added this line to the Discussion: “We also note that our viral transfection protocol in Gad2-Cre mice might not transfect all subtypes of GCs”

      Several conclusions are only supported by data from example neurons. The paper would benefit from a more detailed description of the analysis and the display of some additional analysis at the population level:

      - What were the criteria based on which the spots for light-activation were chosen from the receptive field map?

      In order to make this point clearer, we extended the explanation in the Methods on the selection criteria: “Spots were selected either randomly or manually. In the manual selection case, we selected spots that caused either significant or mild but insignificant inhibitory effect on the recorded MTC (e.g., local cold spots in the receptive-field map; see example in Figure 2a of example spots that were selected manually)”. We also add a reference in the text to the Methods: “see Methods for spots selection criteria”.

      - The absence of an effect on firing rate for paired stimulations is only shown for one example (Figure 1c). A quantification of the population level would be interesting.

      - Only one example neuron is shown to support the conclusion that "two different neural circuits mediate suppression and entrainment" in Figure 3. A population analysis would provide more evidence.

      Thank you very much for these comments. We added a population analysis in Figure 3. This analysis shows a dissociation between firing rate suppression and the entrainment groups (Figure 3c-d). This suggests that two different circuits mediate suppression and entrainment.

      - Only one example neuron is shown to illustrate the effect of GC stimulation on gamma rhythmicity of MTCs in Figures 4 f,g.

      In this figure, we show that the activation of subsets of GCL neurons elevated odor-evoked spike synchronization to the gamma rhythm. We thought it would be beneficial to demonstrate the change in spike entrainment following GCL neurons optogenetic activation regardless of the ongoing OB gamma oscillations, using the method presented by Fukunaga et al., 2014. However, this analysis requires that the neuron has a relatively high firing rate. As we describe in the figure legend of this panel, this neuron is probably a tufted cell based on the findings shown in Fukunaga et al., 2014 and Burton & Urban, 2021. Most of our recorded cells had a lower firing rate, which coincides with our typical recording depth, targeting mitral cells rather than tufted cells (~400µm deep). Since this analysis is shown only over a single neuron, we moved it to Supplementary Figure 4.

      - In Figure 5 and the corresponding text, "proximal" and "distal" GC activation are not clearly defined.

      We agree. Initially, we used these terms to refer to GC columns that include the recorded MTC (proximal) and columns that are away from it (distal). We decided that instead of using a coarse division, we would show the whole range of distances. We updated the analysis in Figure 5d to show the effect of GC optogenetic activation on MTC odor-evoked responses as a function of the distance from the recorded MTC.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary

      This study provides a detailed analysis and dissociation between two effects of activation of lateral inhibitory circuits in the olfactory bulb on ongoing single mitral/tufted cell (MTC) spiking activity, namely enhanced synchronization in the gamma frequency range or lateral inhibition of firing rate.

      The authors use a clever combination of single-cell recordings, optogenetics with variable spatial stimulation of MTCs and sensory stimulation in vivo, and established mathematical methods to describe changes in autocorrelation/synchronization of a single MTC's spiking activity upon activation of lateral glomerular MTC ensembles. This assay is rounded off by a gain-of-function experiment in which the authors enhance granule cell (GC) excitation to establish a causal relation between GC activation and enhanced synchronization to gamma (they had used this manipulation in their previous paper Dalal & Haddad 2022, but use a smaller illumination spot here for spatially restricted activation).

      Strengths

      This study is of high interest for olfactory processing - since it shows directly that interactions between only two selected active receptor channels are sufficient to enhance the synchronization of single neurons to gamma in one channel (and thus by inference most likely in both). These interactions are distance-independent over many 100s of µms and thus can allow for non-topographical inhibitory action across the bulb, in contrast to the center-surround lateral inhibition known from other sensory modalities.

      In my view, parallels between vision and olfaction might have been overemphasized so far, since the combinatorial encoding of olfactory stimuli across the glomerular map might require different mechanisms of lateral interaction versus vision. This result is indicative of such a major difference.

      Such enhanced local synchronization was observed in a subset of activated channel pairs; in addition, the authors report another type of lateral interaction that does involve the reduction of firing rates, drops off with distance and most likely is caused by a different circuit-mediated by PV+ neurons (PVN; the evidence for which is circumstantial).

      Weaknesses/Room for improvement

      Thus this study is an impressive proof of concept that however does not yet allow for broad generalization. Therefore the framing of results should be slightly more careful in my opinion.

      We agree with the reviewer. We copy here our response to reviewer #1, who raised the same issue.

      We agree that direct evidence of mutual synchronization between multiple recorded MTCs has not been shown in our study. Our study only shows a mechanism that can enable this synchronization. We now state this clearly in the manuscript. We relayed previous studies that tested MTC spike synchronization. Specifically, Schoppa 2006, reported that electrical OSN stimulation evokes MTC spikes synchronization in the gamma range, in-vitro. Kashiwadni et al., 1999 and Doucette et al., showed that odor-evoked MTC spike times are synchronized, in-vivo. Given these studies, we asked what is the underlying mechanism that can support such a synchronization. Our study demonstrates that activating a group of MTCs can entrain another MTC in an activity-dependent and distance-independent manner. We claim this could be the underlying mechanism for the odor-evoked synchronization as demonstrated by these previous studies.

      To make sure this is clearly stated in the manuscript we changed the title to “Activity-dependent lateral inhibition enables the synchronization of active olfactory bulb projection neurons”, and rephrased a sentence in the abstract to “This lateral synchronization was particularly effective when the recorded MTC fired at the gamma rhythm”. To further clarify this point, we made several other changes throughout the results and the discussion section.

      Along this line, the conclusions regarding two different circuits underlying lateral inhibition vs enhanced synchronization are not quite justified by the data, e.g.

      (1) The authors mention that their granule cell stimulation results in a local cold spot (l. 527 ff) - how can they then said to be not involved in the inhibition of firing rate (bullet point in Highlights)? Please elaborate further. In l.406 they also state that GCs can inhibit MTCs under certain conditions. The argument, that this stimulation is not physiological, makes sense, but still does not rule out anything. You might want to cite Aghvami et al 2022 on the very small amplitude of GC-mediated IPSPs, also McIntyre and Cleland 2015.

      We apologize for the lack of clarity. We reported that we found a local cold spot in the context of an additional experiment not presented in the manuscript and only described in the Methods section. Following the revision, we decided to add the analysis of this experiment to Figure 5. This experiment validated that optogenetic activation of GCs is potent and can affect the recorded MTC firing rates. This is particularly important as we performed all experiments under Ketamine anesthesia, which is a NMDA receptor antagonist. In this experiment, we recorded the activity of MTCs at baseline conditions (without odor presentation) under optogenetic activation of GCs. We divided the OB surface into a grid and optogenetically activated GC columns at a random order, one light spot in each trial, using light patches of size of size 330um2. We used the same light intensity as in the optogenetic GC activation during odor stimulation (reported in Figures 4-5). We show that the recorded MTC was strongly inhibited by GC light activation, mostly when activating GCs in its vicinity (within its column, i.e., local cold spot). This experiment validates that in our experimental setup, GCs can exert inhibition over MTCs at baseline conditions.

      (2) Even from the shown data, it appears that laterally increased synchronization might co-occur with lateral suppression (See also comment on Figures 1d,e and Figure S1c)

      We kindly note that the panels you referred to do not quantify the firing rate but the rhythmicity of MTC light-evoked responses. We should have explained these graphs better in the main text and not only in the Methods section. We added a panel to Supplementary Figure 1, which describes our analysis: In each of these examples, we performed a time-frequency Wavelet analysis over the average response of the neurons across trials (computed using a sliding Gaussian with a std of 2ms). The results of the Wavelet analysis allowed us to visually capture the enhanced spike alignment across trials under paired activation as a function of the stimulus duration (as, for example, in Figure 1c, middle panel). The response amplitude to light stimulation did not change in this example (shown in Figure 1c lower panel), and the spikes entrainment increased following paired activation of MTCs.

      To address the relations between lateral suppression and synchronization at the population level, we added additional analyses to Figure 3c-d.

      (3) There are no manipulations of PVN activity in this study, thus there is no direct evidence for the substrate of the second circuit.

      We completely agree with the reviewer. Using the current data, we can only claim that optogenetic activation of GCL neurons did not affect the MTC odor-evoked response. This finding is consistent with the loss-of-function experiment reported by Fukunaga et al., 2014, where GC suppression did not change odor-evoke responses in both anesthetized and awake mice. Therefore, we speculated that PVN might be a candidate OB interneuron to mediate lateral inhibition between MTCs. This hypothesis is based on their higher likelihood of interconnecting two MTCs compared with GCs (Burton, 2017). We elaborated on this in the discussion and made sure it is clearly stated as a hypothesis.

      (4) The manipulation of GC activity was performed in a transgenic line with viral transfection, which might result in a lower permeation of the population compared to the line used for optogenetic stimulation of MTCs.

      We used a previously validated protocol for optogenetic manipulation of GCs from Fukunaga et al., 2014 in order to minimize this caveat. As we cited previously from their paper, following the expression of ChR2 in the GCL, ‘Light presentation in vivo resulted in rapid and strong depolarization of, and action potential (AP) discharges in, GCs (Fig. 3b), which in turn consistently and strongly hyperpolarized M/TCs (9 of 9 cells showed 100% AP suppression; Fig. 3c,d)’. These results are consistent with the additional experiment we added to the manuscript, where optogenetic activation of GCL neurons strongly suppressed MTC activity during baseline conditions (without odor presentation). The high similarity between these two reports, in which, in the case of Fukunaga et al., GC activation was directly measured, suggests that lack of opsin expression or insufficient light intensity is unlikely to explain the lack of GCL neuron activation effect on lateral inhibition. Moreover, GCL neurons' optogenetic activation during odor stimulation increased MTC spike-LFP coupling in the gamma range. Therefore, the dissociation between the effects of GCL neurons on spike entrainment and lateral inhibition suggests that the lack of lateral inhibition following GC activation is unlikely due to low expression rates.

      In some instances, the authors tend to cite older literature - which was not yet aware of the prominent contribution of EPL neurons including PVN to recurrent and lateral inhibition of MT cells - as if roles that then were ascribed to granule cells for lack of better knowledge can still be unequivocally linked to granule cells now. For example, they should discuss Arevian et al (2006), Galan et al 2006, Giridhar et al., Yokoi et al. 1995, etc in the light of PVN action.

      Therefore it is also not quite justified to state that their result regarding the role of GCs specifically for synchronization, not suppression, is "in contrast to the field" (e.g. l.70 f.,, l.365, l. 400 ff).

      We changed several sentences in the discussion and introduction to explain that previous studies attributed lateral suppression to GC because they were not aware of the prominent contribution of EPL neurons as has been demonstrated by more recent studies (Burton 2024, Huang et al., 2016,  Kato et al., 2013, and more).

      We also toned down the statement that these findings are in contrast to the field. Instead, we state that our findings support the claim that GCs are not involved in affecting MTC odor-evoked firing rate.

      Why did the authors choose to use the term "lateral suppression", often interchangeably with lateral inhibition? If this term is intended to specifically reflect reductions of firing rates, it might be useful to clearly define it at first use (and cite earlier literature on it) and then use it consistently throughout.

      We agree and have changed the manuscript accordingly. We added the following in the introduction: “We use this phrase here to refer to a process that suppresses the firing rate of the post-synaptic neuron.”

      A discussion of anesthesia effects is missing - e.g. GC activity is known to be reportedly stronger in awake mice (Kato et al). This is not a contentious point at all since the authors themselves show that additional excitation of GCs enhances synchrony, but it should be mentioned.

      We completely agree and added a paragraph to the Discussion in this regard. Please see also the response to reviewer #1, who made a similar suggestion.

      Some citations should be added, in particular relevant recent preprints - e.g. Peace et al. BioRxiv 2024, Burton et al. BioRxiv 2024 and the direct evidence for a glutamate-dependent release of GABA from GCs (Lage-Rupprecht et al. 2020).

      We thank the reviewer for noting us these relevant recent manuscripts. We have now cited Peace et al., when discussing the spatial range of inhibition and gamma synchronization in the OB, Lage-Rupprecht et al in the context of the involvement of NMDA receptor in MTC-GC reciprocal synapse and Burton et al. when discussing PV neurons potential function.

      The introduction on the role of gamma oscillations in sensory systems (in particular vision) could be more elaborated.

      In our previous paper (Dalal & Haddad 2022) we had an elaborated introduction on the role of gamma oscillations in sensory processing, since we focused in this study in the effect of gamma synchronization on information transmission between brain regions. In the current study we looked at gamma rhythms as a mechanism that can facilitate ensemble synchronization.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study by Dalal and Haddad analyzes two facets of cooperative recruitment of M/TCs as discerned through direct, ChR2-mediated spot stimulations:

      (1) mutual inhibition and

      (2) entrainment of action potential timing within the gamma frequency range.

      This investigation is conducted by contrasting the evoked activity elicited by a "central" stimulus spot, which induces an excitatory response alone, with that elicited when paired with stimulations of surrounding areas. Additionally, the effect of Gad2-expressing granule cells is examined.

      Based on the observed distance dependence and the impact of GC stimulations, the authors infer that mutual inhibition and gamma entrainment are mediated by distinct mechanisms.

      Strengths:

      The results presented in this study offer a nice in vivo validation of the significant in vitro findings previously reported by Arevian, Kapoor, and Urban in 2008. Additionally, the distance-dependent analysis provides some mechanistic insights.

      We thank the reviewer for his comments. Indeed, the current study provides in-vivo replication of the results reported in Arevian et al., 2008 in-vitro, and adds further insights by showing that lateral inhibition is distant-dependent. However, this is not the main focus of the current study. Following the findings reported by Dalal & Haddad 2022, the motivation for this study was to test the mechanism that allows co-activated MTCs to entrain their spike timing. By light-activating pairs of MTCs at varying distances, we detected a subset of pairs in which paired light-activation evoked activity-dependent lateral inhibition, as was reported by Arevian et al., 2008. Moreover, we think it is highly important to know that a previous result in an in-vitro study is fully reproducible in-vivo.

      Weaknesses:

      The results largely reproduce previously reported findings, including those from the authors' own work, such as Dalal and Haddad (2022), where a key highlight was "Modulating GC activities dissociates MTCs odor-evoked gamma synchrony from firing rates." Some interpretations, particularly the claim regarding the distance independence of the entrainment effect, may be considered over-interpretations.

      We kindly disagree with the reviewer. We think the current study extends rather than reproduces the findings reported in Dalal & Haddad 2022. The 2022 study mainly focused on the effect of OB gamma synchronization on odor representation in the Piriform cortex. We bidirectionally modulated the level of MTC gamma synchronization and found that it had bidirectional effects on odor representation in one of their downstream targets, the anterior piriform cortex. The current study, however, focuses on the question of how spatially distributed odor-activated MTCs can synchronize their spiking activity. Our current main finding is that paired activation of MTCs can enhance the spikes entrainment of the recorded MTC in an activity-dependent and spatially independent manner. We suggest that this mechanism is mediated by GCL neurons.

      The reviewer did not explain why he\she thinks that the distance independence of the entrainment effects is an over-interpretation. However, to make our claim more precise we added the following sentence to the corresponding results section:” Furthermore, within the distance range that we were able to measure, the increased phase-locking did not significantly correlate with the distance from the MTC”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor comments:

      (1) Line 17f: "This lateral synchronization was particularly effective when both MTCs fired at the gamma rhythm, ..."

      This sentence implies a direct comparison of the simultaneously recorded firing of MTCs but I could not find evidence for this in this manuscript. I would suggest to change this.

      We thank the reviewer. The sentence was changed to “This lateral synchronization was particularly effective when the recorded MTC fired at the gamma rhythm”.

      (2) Line 43f: A brief description of what glomeruli are could help to avoid confusion for readers less familiar with the OB. The phrasing of "activated glomeruli" and "each glomerulus innervates" are somewhat misleading given that they do not contain the cell bodies of the projection neurons.

      We edited this part of the introduction so it briefly describes what glomeruli are: ‘Olfactory processing starts with the activity of odorant-activated olfactory sensory neurons. The axons of these sensory neurons terminate in one or two anatomical structures called glomeruli located on the surface of the olfactory bulb (OB). Each glomerulus is innervated by several mitral and tufted cells (MTCs), which then project the odor information to several cortical regions. ‘

      (3) Line 78ff: The text sounds as if glomeruli are activated by the light stimulation but ChR2 is expressed in MTCs, the postsynaptic component of the glomeruli. It would be clearer to refer to the stimulation as light activation of MTCs.

      We corrected this sentence to: ‘We first mapped each recorded cell's receptive field, i.e., the set of MTCs on the dorsal OB that affect its firing rates when they are light-stimulated.’

      (4) Line 90: It would be great to mention somewhere in this paragraph that you are analyzing single-unit data sorted from extracellular recordings with tungsten electrodes.

      We added that to the description of the experimental setup: ‘To investigate how MTCs interact, we expressed the light-gated channel rhodopsin (ChR2) exclusively in MTCs by crossing the Tbet-Cre and Ai32 mouse lines (Grobman et al., 2018; Haddad et al., 2013), and extracellularly recorded the spiking activity of MTCs in anesthetized mice during optogenetic stimulation using tungsten electrodes.’

      (5) Line 97: The term "delta entrainment" could be easily confused with the entrainment of MTCs to respiration in the delta frequency band. Maybe better to use a different term or stick to "change in entrainment" also used in the text.

      We completely agree. The term was changed to “change in entrainment” throughout the manuscript and figures.

      (6) Line 121f: "Light stimulation did not affect ..." . Should this be "Paired light stimulation did not affect ..."?

      Corrected, thank you.

      (7) Supplementary Figure 1a: The example is not very convincing. It looks a bit like a rhythmic bursting neuron mildly depending on the stimulation.

      This panel serves to present our light stimulation method. The potency of the light stimulation protocol can be seen in the receptive field maps.

      (8) Supplementary Figure 1c: Why is there no confidence interval for 'Paired'?

      This panel shows the power spectrum density of the average neuron response across trials computed over the entire stimulus window (100ms). We decided to remove this panel, as panel Figure 1d shows the evolution of the entrainment in time and, therefore, provides better insight into the effect.

      (9) Line 166f: "... across any light intensities". Maybe better "... for the four light intensities tested"?

      We agree, we changed the text in accordance.

      (10) Figure 2f: It would be more intuitive to have the x-axis in the same orientation as in 2e.

      Corrected, thank you.

      (11) Figure 4a: The image in this panel is identical to Figure 1a in Dalal and Haddad 2022 in Cell reports just with a different intensity. The reuse of items and data from previous publications should be indicated somewhere but I could not find it.

      We apologize for this replication. We replaced it with a photo showing a larger portion of the OB, demonstrating the restricted viral expression within the GCL.

      (12) Line 408ff: A brief explanation for the hypothesis of EPL parvalbumin interneurons as the ones mediating lateral inhibition would be great.

      We agree. We added the following paragraph to the discussion section: “We speculate that MTC-to-MTC suppression is mediated by EPL neurons, most likely the Parvalbumin neuron (PV). This hypothesis is based on their activity and connectivity properties with MTCs(Burton, 2017; Kato et al., 2013; Miyamichi et al., 2013; Burton, 2024). More studies are required to reveal how PV neurons affect MTC activity.”

      (13) Line 425ff: You show that only activity of high firing rate neurons is suppressed by lateral inhibition, whereas "low and noise MTC responses" are not affected. Wouldn't this rather support the conclusion that lateral inhibition prevents excess activity from the OB?

      We found lateral inhibition was mainly effective when the postsynaptic neurons fired at ~30-80Hz in response to light stimulation. That is, it affects MTC firing in this “intermediate” rate, and to a lesser extent when the MTC have low and very high firing rates. To prevent excess activity, one would expect a mechanism that affects more high firing rates than medium ones. This was demonstrated in Kato 2013 for PV-MTC inhibition

      (14) Line 387: "..., only ~20% of the tested MTC pairs exhibited significant lateral inhibition." This is higher than the 16% of neurons you reported to have lateral entrainment (line 100). Why do you consider the lateral inhibition as 'sparse' but the lateral entrainment as relevant?

      We apologize for this unclear statement. The papers we cited in this regard (Fantana et al., 2008; Lehmann et al., 2016; Pressler and Strowbridge, 2017) have tested lateral inhibition when the recorded MTC was not active, which resulted in a sparse MTC-MTC inhibition. We validated and replicated these findings in our setup, by systematically projecting light spots over the dorsal OB without simultaneous activation of the recorded MTC and found similar rates of largely scarce inhibition (data not shown). In this study, using spike-triggered average light stimulation protocol and paired activation of MTCs, we found higher rates of lateral inhibition, consistent with the reports by Isaacson and Strowbridge, 1998, Urban and Sakmann, 2002. We changed this paragraph to the following:

      “We found that in only ~20% of the tested MTC pairs exhibited significant lateral suppression. This rate is consistent with previous in-vitro studies that found lateral suppression between 10-20% of heterotypic MTC pairs (Isaacson and Strowbridge, 1998; Urban and Sakmann, 2002), and is higher compared to a case where the recorded MTC is not active (Lehmann et al., 2016).”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Figure-by-figure comments:

      (1) Figures 1d,e: both these examples seem to show that the firing rate is decreased in the paired condition? From maxima at 110 to 58 Hz in d and 100 to 48 Hz in e. Please explain (see also comment on Figure S1c).

      Please see the response in the Public Review section, reviewer #2, bullet (2). We also added a panel to Supplementary Figure 1 to better explain this.

      (2) Figure 1 f The means and SEMs are hard to see. Why is the SEM bar plotted horizontally? Since this is a major finding of the paper, will there be a table provided that shows the distribution of ∆ shifts across animals?

      We apologize for the mistake. The horizontal bar was the marking of the mean. Since the SEM is small, we corrected the graph for better visualization of the SEM.

      (3) Figure 1g Showing the running average of data where there is almost none or no data points (beyond 50 Hz) seems not ideal. Is the enhanced entrainment around 40Hz significant? Perhaps the moving average should be replaced by binned data with indicated n?

      We prefer to show all data points instead of binning the data so the reader can see it all. We agree that such a wide range on the x-axis is unnecessary. We shorten this graph only to include the firing rate range in which the data points ranged.

      (4) Figure 1h Impressive result!

      Thank you!

      (5) Figure S1a: since the authors show the respiratory pattern here and there obviously was no alignment of light stimulation with inspiration, was there any correlation between the respiratory phase and efficiency of light stimulation with respect to lateral interactions?

      This is an interesting idea. In Haddad et al., 2013, figure 7, the authors performed a similar analysis, and showed that optogenetic activation of MTCs had a more pronounced effect on firing rate in the respiration phases where the neuron was less firing. However, we haven’t quantified the impact of lateral interactions with respect to the respiration phase. That being said, the data will be publicly available to test this question.

      (6) Figure S1c: Here the shift towards a lower firing rate seems to be obvious (see comment in Figures 1 d and e). Please also show the plot for Figure 1e.

      This panel shows the power spectrum density of the average neuron's response across trials computed over the entire stimulus window (100ms). We decided to remove this panel, as panel Figure 1d shows the evolution of the entrainment in time and, therefore, provides better insight into the effect.

      (7) Figure 2b: show the same plot also for pair 2? Why is it stated that there is no lateral suppression for lateral stimulation alone, if the MTC did not spike spontaneously in the first place and thus inhibition cannot be demonstrated?

      We use Figure 2b to demonstrate the effect of lateral inhibition, and in Figure 2c we detail the responses under each light intensity for both pairs. We think that showing the mean and SEM for one example is enough to give a sense of the effect, as in Figure 2c we show the average response across time together with significant assessment for each pair (panels without a p-value have no significant difference between the conditions).

      However, we agree with the comment on this specific example and therefore deleted this sentence. However, at the population level we found no inhibition when activating the lateral spots, regardless of their firing rates (shown in Supplementary Figure 2a).

      (8) Figure 2d: why is there no distance-dependent color coding for the significant data points? Or, alternatively, since the distance plot is shown in 2e, perhaps drop this information altogether? Again, the moving average is problematic.

      Distance-dependent color coding is applied to all data points in this panel. Significant data points are shown in full circles and have distance-dependent color coding, which is mainly restricted to the lower part of the distance scale (cold colors).

      We used a moving average to relate to the similar result reported in Arevian 2008.In Figure 2e, the actual distance for each data point is indicated on the x-axis.

      (9) Figure 2f: the diagonal averaging method seems to neglect a lot of the data in Figure S2b, why not use radial coordinates for averaging?

      Thank you for the great suggestion. We indeed performed radial coordinates for the averaging, and the results are more robust and better summarize the entire data.

      (10) Figure 3: These are interesting observations, but are there cumulative data on such types of pairs? Please describe and show, otherwise this can only be a supplemental observation. Regarding 3b was it always the lower light intensity that resulted in suppression and the higher in sync? Since Burton et al. 2024 have just shown that PVNs require very little input to fire!

      This figure shows several examples of entrainment and inhibition properties. As suggested, we added population analysis (Figure 3c-d). This analysis compares the firing rate changes in pairs that evoked significant suppression or entrainment. First, we found only a few pairs in which paired activation evoked both spikes entrainment and suppression. Second, the mean of firing rate changes of pairs that evoked significant entrainment (N=50, shown in Figure 1f in full circles) is significantly different from the mean of the pairs that evoked significant lateral inhibition (N=51, shown in Figure 2d in full circles).

      (11) Figure 4: This Figure and the corresponding section should be entitled "Additional GC activation... ", otherwise it might be confusing for the reader. A loss of function manipulation (local GC silencing) would be also great to have! You did this in the previous paper, why not here? Raw LFP data are not shown. In Figure 4e the reported odor response firing rate ranges only up to 40Hz, but the example in g shows a much higher frequency. Is the maximum in 4e significant? (same issue as for Figure 1g).

      We changed the phrase to ‘optogenetic GCL neurons activation’. Unfortunately, we haven’t performed experiments where we suppress GC columns. In the previous paper, we suppressed the activity of all accessible GCs, which resulted in reduced spike synchronization to the OB gamma oscillations. Silencing only the GC column is, we think, unlikely to have a substantial effect, especially if the GCs have low activity (but this needs to be tested). Furthermore, we added examples of raw LFP data for odor stimulation and odor combined with GCL column activation (see Supplementary Figure 4a).

      The instantaneous firing rate is high (~80Hz), however the firing rate values we report in Figure 4e is the average within a window of 2 seconds (the odor duration is 1.5 seconds and we extend the window to account for responses with late return to baseline). The average firing rate of this example neuron in this window was 28Hz.

      (12) Fig 5: what does "proximal" mean - does this mean stimulation of the GCs below the recorded MTC, that might actually belong to the same glomerular unit?

      Yes, by “proximal” we mean the activation of the GC in the column of the recorded MTC. However, we decided that instead of coarsely dividing the data into proximal and distal optogenetic activation of GCL neurons, we will show the data continuously to show that GC had no significant effect on MTC odor-evoked firing rates regardless of their location (Figure 5d).

      A comment on the title:

      Please tone it down: "Ensemble synchronization" is a hypothesis at this point, not directly shown in the paper. Also, the paper does not show lateral interactions between odor-activated neurons.

      We agree and have rephrased it to “Activity-dependent lateral inhibition enables the synchronization of active olfactory bulb projection neurons ”

      (1) Figure 1a, 2a scale bar missing.

      Corrected, thank you.

      (2) Figure 1 c is the "rebound" in the lateral stim trace (green) real or not significant?

      The activity during this rebound is not significantly different than the baseline activity before light stimulation.

      (3) Figure 2b legend: "lateral alone" instead of lateral?

      We appreciate the suggestion. For simplicity, we will keep it as “lateral”.

      (4) Figure 2c: some of the data plots seem to be breaking off, e.g. the blue line in the bottom third one.

      This line breaking is due to the lack of spikes in this period. The PSTHs used in all analyses result from the convolution of the spike train with a Gaussian window with a standard deviation of 50ms.

      (5) Figure 2f: Why is the x axis flopped vs 2d,e?

      This panel was mistakenly plotted that way, and was corrected.

      Comments on the text:

      Abstract - we had indicated suggestions by strike-throughs and color which are lost in the online submission system, please compare with your original text:

      Information in the brain is represented by the activity of neuronal ensembles. These ensembles are adaptive and dynamic, formed and truncated based on the animal`s experience. One mechanism by which spatially distributed neurons form an ensemble is via synchronization of their spiking activity in response to a sensory event. In the olfactory bulb, odor stimulation evokes rhythmic gamma activity in spatially distributed mitral and tufted cells (MTCs). This rhythmic activity is thought to enhance the relay of odor information to the downstream olfactory targets. However, how only specifically the odor-activated MTCs are synchronized is unknown. Here, we demonstrate that light optogenetic activation of activating one set of MTCs can gamma-entrain the spiking activity of another set. This lateral synchronization was particularly effective when both MTCs fired at the gamma rhythm, facilitating the synchronization of only the odor-activated MTCs. Furthermore, we show that lateral synchronization did not depend on the distance between the MTCs and is mediated by granule cells. In contrast, lateral inhibition between MTCs that reduced their firing rates was spatially restricted to adjacent MTCs and was not mediated by granule cells. Our findings reveal lead us to propose ? a simple yet robust mechanism by which spatially distributed neurons entrain each other's spiking activity to form an ensemble.

      Thank you. We adopted most of the changes and edited the abstract to reflect the reported results better.

      "both MTCs fired at the gamma rhythm"/this is at this point unwarranted since the mutual entrainment is not shown - tone down or present as hypothesis?

      We completely agree. This sentence was changed to “This lateral synchronization was particularly effective when the recorded MTC fired at the gamma rhythm, facilitating the synchronization of the active MTC”.

      l. 28: distance-independent instead of "spatially independent"?

      Corrected

      l. 46: are there inhibitory neurons in the ONL? Or which 6 layers are you referring to here?

      Corrected to “spanning all OB layers”.

      l. 49: "is mediated" => "likely to be mediated". Schoppa's work is in vitro and did not account for PVNs, see comment in Public Review.

      Corrected. Indeed Schoppa`s work was performed in-vitro. We cite it here since it showed that the synchronized firing of two MTC pairs depends on granule cells.

      l.52: "method"? rather "mechanism"? "specifically" instread of "only"?

      Corrected.

      l.52: perhaps more precise: a recent hypothesis is that GCs enable synchronization solely between odor-activated MTCs via an activity-dependent mechanism for GABA-release (Lage Rupprecht et al. 2020 - please cite the experimental paper here). Again. Galan has no direct evidence for GCs vs PVNs, see comment in Public Review.

      Thank you, we updated this sentence here and in the discussion and added the relevant citation.

      l. 66: spike timings instead of spike's timing?

      Corrected to spike timings

      l. 67 -71: this part could be dropped.

      We appreciate the suggestion; however, we think that it is convenient to briefly read the main results before the results section.

      l. 76 mouse instead of mice.

      Corrected.

      l. 77: for clarification: " a single MTC"?

      In some cases, we recorded more than one cell simultaneously.

      l. 89: just use "hotspot".

      Corrected

      l. 97 instead of "change", "positive change" or "increase"?

      We left the word change, since we wanted to report that the change between hotspot alone and paired stimulation was significantly higher than zero.

      l. 104: the postsyn MTC's firing rate.

      Corrected to MTC instead of MTCs

      l.108: "distributed on the OB surface" sounds misleading, perhaps "across the glomerular map"?

      Corrected.

      l. 254: "which the MTCs form with each other"- perhaps "which interconnect MTCs".

      Corrected.

      l. 270 Additional GC activation.

      Corrected to ‘optogenetic activation of GCL neurons’

      l. 284 somewhat unclear - please expand.

      Corrected to ‘This measure minimizes the bias of the neuron's firing rate on the spike-LFP synchrony value’.

      l. 371: no odors in Schoppa et al.

      Corrected to ‘It has been shown that two active MTCs can synchronize their stimulus-evoked and odor-evoked spike timings’

      l. 406 ff. good point - but where is the transition? How does this observation rule out that GCs can mediate lateral suppression?

      It is an important question. We tested two setups of GCs optogenetic activation, either column activation (in this paper) or the activation of all accessible GCs of the dorsal OB (Dalal & Haddad, 2022). Although the latter manipulation results in significant firing rate suppression, the effect of MTC suppression was relatively small in anesthetized mice and even smaller in awake mice. Optogenetically activating GCs at baseline conditions resulted in a strong suppression of only the adjacent MTCs. Taken together, we think that GCs are capable of strongly inhibit MTCs, but it is not their main function in natural olfactory sensation.

      l. 422 ff: again, this is a hypothesis, please frame accordingly.

      Corrected to ‘Activity-dependent synchronization can enables the synchronization of odor-activated MTCs that are dispersed across the glomerular map’

      l. 551 typo.

      Corrected.

      l 556 ff: Figure 2 does not show odor responses.

      Corrected.

      l 582: Mix up of above/below and low/high?

      Corrected to ‘The values in the STA map that were above or below these high and low percentile thresholds’

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Line 76: "Ai39" should be corrected to "Ai32".

      Corrected. Thank you.

      Figure Legends: The legends should describe the results rather than interpret the data. For instance, the legends for Figures 1f, g, and h contain interpretations. The authors should review all legends and revise them accordingly.

      We appreciate the comment. However, we kindly disagree. We don’t see these opening sentences as interpretations but as guidance to the reader. For example, ‘Paired stimulation increases spikes’ temporal precision’ is not an interpretation; instead, it describes the finding presented in this panel. We think that legends that only repeat what can already be deduced from the graph are not helpful and, in many cases, obsolete. Explaining what we think this graph shows is common, and we prefer it as it helps the reader.

      For Figures 1d and e, it may be beneficial to add the spectrograms for the second stimulation alone.

      We show the stimulation of the hotspot alone and when we stimulate both.<br /> The spectrogram of the lateral alone does not show anything of importance.

      Figures 1a and 2a: Please add color bars so that readers can understand the meaning of the colors plotted.

      Color bars were added.

      Figure 3: The purpose of this figure is unclear. Why does the baseline firing rate for the paired activation differ? Is this an isolated observation, or is it observed in other units as well?

      This issue has been raised also by reviewer #2. Attached here is our response to reviewer #2

      This figure shows several examples of entrainment and inhibition properties. As suggested, we added population analysis (Figure 3c-d). This analysis compares the firing rate changes in pairs that evoked significant suppression or entrainment. First, we found only a few pairs in which paired activation evoked both spikes entrainment and suppression. Second, the mean of firing rate changes of pairs that evoked significant entrainment (N=50, shown in Figure 1f in full circles) is significantly different from the mean of the pairs that evoked significant lateral inhibition (N=51, shown in Figure 2d in full circles).

      Figures 4 and 5 data seems to come from the same dataset as in Dalal and Haddad (2022) DOI: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.celrep.2022.110693. For example, the fluorescence image looks identical. If this is the case, the authors may want to state that that the image and and some of the data and analyses are reproduced.

      The recorded data shown in these figures are not reproduced from Dalal & Haddad 2022. We collected this data, using GC-columns activation instead of light activating the entire OB dorsal surface as was done in the 2022 paper.

      However, the histology image is the same and we now replaced it with a new image, which shows that the expression is restricted to the GCL.

      Figure 4d: the authors use the data plotted here to argue that the gamma entrainment is distance-independent. But there is a clear decrease over distance (e.g., delta PPC1 over 0.01 is not seen for distance beyond 1000 m). The claim of distance independence may be an over-interpretation of the data. Peace et al. (2024) also claimed that coupling via gamma oscillations occurs over a large spatial extent.

      From a statistical point of view, we can’t state that there is a dependency on distance as the correlation is insignificant (P = 0.86). PPC1 of value 0.01 can be found at 0, 500, and 700 microns. Lower values are found at far distances, but this can result from a smaller number of points. The reduced level of synchrony observed at distances above one mm could be the result of the reduced density of lateral interactions at these distances. That said, we rephrase the sentence to a more careful statement. Please see the rephrased sentence at the Public review section.

    1. Author response:

      We appreciate Reviewer 1’s observation that our findings (i.e., separable dynamic trajectories are systematically translated in response to whether outcomes are rewarded, and this translation is accumulated across trials) are consistent with a line attractor model. We agree with this assessment and, in the revised manuscript, will reframe our findings about the dynamic trajectories to address its consistency with a line attractor.

      However, we would like to emphasize that a line attractor model does not account for the dynamic nature of reversal probability activity observed in the neural data. Line attractor, regardless of whether it is curved or straight, implies that the activity is fixed when no reward information is presented. The focus of our work is to highlight this dynamic nature of reversal probability activity and its incompatibility with the line attractor model.

      This leads to the question of how we could reconcile the line attractor-like properties and the dynamic nature of reversal probability activity. In the revised manuscript, we will provide evidence for an augmented model that has an attractor state at the beginning of each trial, followed by dynamic activity during the trial. Such a model is an example of superposition of initial attractor states with fast within-trial dynamics, as pointed out by Reviewer 1.

      We also thank Reviewer 2 and Reviewer 3 for their comments on how the manuscript could be improved. In the revised manuscript, we will provide detailed explanations to clarify the choice of network model, data analysis methods and experiment and model setups.

      In addition, we would like to take this opportunity to point out potentially misleading statements in the reviews by Reviewer 2 and Reviewer 3. Reviewer 2 stated that “no action is required to be performed by neurons in the RNN, …, no intervening behavior is thus performed by neurons”. Reviewer 3 stated that “the RNN does not have to do any explicit computation during the non-feedback parts of the trial…”. These statements convey the message that the trained RNN does not perform any computation. In fact, the RNN is trained to make a choice during non-feedback period in response to feedback. This is the (and the only) computation RNN performs. “Intervening behavior” refers to the choice the RNN makes across trials until reversing its initially preferred choice. We think that this confusion might have happened because the meaning of the term “intervening behavior” was unclear. We will clarify this point in the revised manuscript.

      Again, thank you for the insightful comments. We will provide a more detailed response to the reviews and revise the manuscript accordingly.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors use high-throughput gene editing technology in larval zebrafish to address whether microexons play important roles in the development and functional output of larval circuits. They find that individual microexon deletions rarely impact behavior, brain morphology, or activity, and raise the possibility that behavioral dysregulation occurs only with more global loss of microexon splicing regulation. Other possibilities exist: perhaps microexon splicing is more critical for later stages of brain development, perhaps microexon splicing is more critical in mammals, or perhaps the behavioral phenotypes observed when microexon splicing is lost are associated with loss of splicing in only a few genes.

      A few questions remain:

      (1) What is the behavioral consequence for loss of srrm4 and/or loss-of-function mutations in other genes encoding microexon splicing machinery in zebrafish?

      It is established that srrm4 mutants have no overt morphological phenotypes and are not visually impaired (Ciampi et al., 2022).

      We chose not to generate and characterize the behavior and brain activity of srrm4 mutants for two reasons: 1) we were aware of two other labs in the zebrafish community that had generated srrm4 mutants (Ciampi et al., 2022 and Gupta et al., 2024, https://doi.org/10.1101/2024.11.29.626094; Lopez-Blanch et al., 2024, https://doi.org/10.1101/2024.10.23.619860), and 2) we were far more interested in determining the importance of individual microexons to protein function, rather than loss of the entire splicing program. Microexon inclusion can be controlled by different splicing regulators, such as srrm3 (Ciampi et al., 2022) and possibly other unknown factors. Genetic compensation in srrm4 mutants could also result in microexons still being included through actions of other splicing regulators, complicating the analysis of these regulators. We mention srrm4 in the manuscript to point out that some selected microexons are adjacent to regulatory elements expected of this pathway. We did not, however, choose microexons to mutate based on whether they were regulated by srrm4, making the characterization of srrm4 mutants disconnected from our overarching project goal.

      We are coordinating our publication with Lopez-Blanch et al. (https://doi.org/10.1101/2024.10.23.619860), which shows that srrm4 mutants also have minimal behavioral phenotypes.

      (2) What is the consequence of loss-of-function in microexon splicing genes on splicing of the genes studied (especially those for which phenotypes were observed).

      We acknowledge that unexpected changes to the mRNA could occur following microexon removal. In particular, all regulatory elements should be removed from the region surrounding the microexon, as any remaining elements could drive the inclusion of unexpected exons that result in premature stop codons.

      First, we will clarify our generated mutant alleles by adding a figure that details the location of the gRNA cut sites in relation to the microexon, its predicted regulatory elements, and its neighboring exons.

      Second, we will experimentally determine whether the mRNA was modified as expected for a subset of mutants with phenotypes.

      Third, we will further emphasize in the manuscript that these observed phenotypes are extremely mild compared to those observed in over one hundred protein-truncating mutations we have assessed in previous and ongoing work. We currently show one mutant, tcf7l2, which we consider to have strong neural phenotypes, and we will expand this comparison in the revision. In our study of 132 genes linked to schizophrenia (Thyme et al., 2019), we established a signal cut-off for whether a mutant would be designated as having a neural phenotype, and we classify this set of microexon mutants in this context. Far stronger phenotypes are expected of loss-of-function alleles for microexon-containing genes, as we showed in Figure S1 of this manuscript in addition to our published work.

      (3) For the microexons whose loss is associated with substantial behavioral, morphological, or activity changes, are the same changes observed in loss-of-function mutants for these genes?

      We had already included two explicit comparisons of microexon loss with a standard loss-of-function allele, one with a phenotype and one without, in Figure S1 of this manuscript. We will make the conclusions and data in this figure more obvious in the main text.

      Beyond the two pairs we had included, Lopez-Blanch et al. (https://doi.org/10.1101/2024.10.23.619860) describes mild behavioral phenotypes for a microexon removal for kif1b, and we already show developmental abnormalities for the kif1b loss-of-function allele (Figure S1).

      Additionally, we can draw expected conclusions from the literature, as some genes with our microexon mutations have been studied as typical mutants in zebrafish or mice. We will modify our manuscript to include a discussion of these mutants.

      (4) Do "microexon mutations" presented here result in the precise loss of those microexons from the mRNA sequence? E.g. are there other impacts on mRNA sequence or abundance?

      See response to point 2. We will experimentally determine whether the mRNA was modified as expected for a subset of mutants with phenotypes.

      (5) Microexons with a "canonical layout" (containing TGC / UC repeats) were selected based on the likelihood that they are regulated by srrm4. Are there other parallel pathways important for regulating the inclusion of microexons? Is it possible to speculate on whether they might be more important in zebrafish or in the case of early brain development?

      The microexons were not selected based on the likelihood that they were regulated by srrm4. We will clarify the manuscript regarding this point. There are parallel pathways that can control the inclusion of microexons, such as srrm3 (Ciampi et al., 2022). It is well-known that loss of srrm3 has stronger impacts on zebrafish development than srrm4 (Ciampi et al., 2022). The goal of our work was not to investigate these splicing regulators, but instead was to determine the individual importance of these highly conserved protein changes.

      Strengths:

      (1) The authors provide a qualitative analysis of splicing plasticity for microexons during early zebrafish development.

      (2) The authors provide comprehensive phenotyping of microexon mutants, addressing the role of individual microexons in the regulation of brain morphology, activity, and behavior.

      We thank the reviewer for their support. The pErk brain activity mapping method is highly sensitive, significantly minimizing the likelihood that the field has simply not looked hard enough for a neural phenotype in these microexon mutants. In our published work (Thyme et al., 2019), we show that brain activity can be drastically impacted without manifesting in differences in those behaviors assessed in a typical larval screen (e.g., tcf4, cnnm2, and more).

      Weaknesses:

      (1) It is difficult to interpret the largely negative findings reported in this paper without knowing how the loss of srrm4 affects brain activity, morphology, and behavior in zebrafish.

      See response to point 1.

      (2) The authors do not present experiments directly testing the effects of their mutations on RNA splicing/abundance.

      See response to point 3.

      (3) A comparison between loss-of-function phenotypes and loss-of-microexon splicing phenotypes could help interpret the findings from positive hits.

      See response to point 2.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript from Calhoun et al. uses a well-established screening protocol to investigate the functions of microexons in zebrafish neurodevelopment. Microexons have gained prominence recently due to their enriched expression in neural tissues and misregulation in autism spectrum disease. However, screening of microexon functionality has thus far been limited in scope. The authors address this lack of knowledge by establishing zebrafish microexon CRISPR deletion lines for 45 microexons chosen in genes likely to play a role in CNS development. Using their high throughput protocol to test larval behaviour, brain activity, and brain structure, a modest group of 9 deletion lines was revealed to have neurodevelopmental functions, including 2 previously known to be functionally important.

      Strengths:

      (1) This work advances the state of knowledge in the microexon field and represents a starting point for future detailed investigations of the function of 7 microexons.

      (2) The phenotypic analysis using high-throughput approaches is sound and provides invaluable data.

      We thank the reviewer for their support.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) There is not enough information on the exact nature of the deletion for each microexon.

      To clarify the nature of our mutant alleles, we will add a figure that details the location of the gRNA cut sites in relation to the microexon, its predicted regulatory elements, and its neighboring exons.

      (2) Only one deletion is phenotypically analysed, leaving space for the phenotype observed to be due to sequence modifications independent of the microexon itself.

      We will experimentally determine whether the mRNA is impacted in unanticipated ways for a subset of mutants with mild phenotypes (see the point 2 response to reviewer 1). We also have already compared the microexon removal to a loss-of-function mutant for two lines (Figure S1), and we will make that outcome more obvious as well as increasing the discussion of the expected phenotypes from typical loss-of-function mutants (see point 3 response to reviewer 1).

      In addition, our findings for three microexon mutants (ap1g1, vav2, and vti1a) are corroborated by Lopez-Blanch et al. (https://doi.org/10.1101/2024.10.23.619860).

      Unlike protein-coding truncations, clean removal of the microexon and its regulatory elements is unlikely to yield different phenotypic outcomes if independent lines are generated (with the exception of genetic background effects). When generating a protein-truncating allele, the premature stop codon can have different locations and a varied impact on genetic compensation. In previous work (Capps et al., 2024), we have observed different amounts of nonsense-mediated decay-induced genetic compensation (El-Brolosy, et al., 2019) depending on the location of the mutation. As they lack variable premature stop codons (the expectation of a clean removal), two mutants for the same microexons should have equivalent impacts on the mRNA.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper sought to understand how microexons influence early brain function. By selectively deleting a large number of conserved microexons and then phenotyping the mutants with behavior and brain activity assays, the authors find that most microexons have minimal effects on the global brain activity and broad behaviors of the larval fish-- although a few do have phenotypes.

      Strengths:

      The work takes full advantage of the scale that is afforded in zebrafish, generating a large mutant collection that is missing microexons and systematically phenotyping them with high throughput behaviour and brain activity assays. The work lays an important foundation for future studies that seek to uncover the likely subtle roles that single microexons will play in shaping development and behavior.

      We thank the reviewer for their support.

      Weaknesses:

      The work does not make it clear enough what deleting the microexon means, i.e. is it a clean removal of the microexon only, or are large pieces of the intron being removed as well-- and if so how much? Similarly, for the microexon deletions that do yield phenotypes, it will be important to demonstrate that the full-length transcript levels are unaffected by the deletion. For example, deleting the microexon might have unexpected effects on splicing or expression levels of the rest of the transcript that are the actual cause of some of these phenotypes.

      To clarify the nature of our mutant alleles, we will add a figure that details the location of the gRNA cut sites in relation to the microexon, its predicted regulatory elements, and its neighboring exons.

      We will experimentally determine whether the mRNA is impacted in unanticipated ways for a subset of mutants with mild phenotypes (see the point 2 response to reviewer 1).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Previous studies have shown that treatment with 17α-estradiol (a stereoisomer of the 17β-estradiol) extends lifespan in male mice but not in females. The current study by Li et al, aimed to identify cell-specific clusters and populations in the hypothalamus of aged male rats treated with 17α-estradiol (treated for 6 months). This study identifies genes and pathways affected by 17α-estradiol in the aged hypothalamus.

      Strengths:

      Using single-nucleus transcriptomic sequencing (snRNA-seq) on the hypothalamus from aged male rats treated with 17α-estradiol they show that 17α-estradiol significantly attenuated age-related increases in cellular metabolism, stress, and decreased synaptic activity in neurons.

      Thanks.

      Moreover, sc-analysis identified GnRH as one of the key mediators of 17α-estradiol's effects on energy homeostasis. Furthermore, they show that CRH neurons exhibited a senescent phenotype, suggesting a potential side effect of the 17α-estradiol. These conclusions are supported by supervised clustering by neuropeptides, hormones, and their receptors.

      Thanks.

      Weaknesses:

      However, the study has several limitations that reduce the strength of the key claims in the manuscript. In particular:

      (1) The study focused only on males and did not include comparisons with females. However, previous studies have shown that 17α-estradiol extends lifespan in a sex-specific manner in mice, affecting males but not females. Without the comparison with the female data, it's difficult to assess its relevance to the lifespan.

      This study was originally designed based on previous findings indicating that lifespan extension is only effective in males, leading to the exclusion of females from the analysis. The primary focus of our research was on the transcriptional changes and serum endocrine alterations induced by 17α-estradiol in aged males compared to untreated aged males. We believe that even in the absence of female subjects, the significant effects of 17α-estradiol on metabolism in the hypothalamus, synapses, and endocrine system remain evident, particularly regarding the expression levels of GnRH and testosterone. Notably, lower overall metabolism, increased synaptic activity, and elevated levels of GnRH and testosterone are strong indicators of health and well-being in males, supporting the validity of our primary conclusions. However, including female controls would enhance the depth of our findings. If female controls were incorporated, we propose redesigning the sample groups to include aged male control, aged female control, aged female treated, aged male treated, as well as young male control, young male treated, young female control, and young female treated. We regret that we cannot provide this data in the short term. Nevertheless, we believe this presents a valuable avenue for future research on this topic. In this study, we emphasize the role of 17α-estradiol in overall metabolism, synaptic function, GnRH, and testosterone in aged males and underscore the importance of supervised clustering of neuropeptide-secreting neurons in the hypothalamus.

      (2) It is not known whether 17α-estradiol leads to lifespan extension in male rats similar to male mice. Therefore, it is not possible to conclude that the observed effects in the hypothalamus, are linked to the lifespan extension.

      Thanks for the reminding. 17α-estradiol was reported to extend lifespan in male rats similar to male mice (PMID: 33289482). We have added the valuable reference to introduction in the new version.  

      (3) The effect of 17α-estradiol on non-neuronal cells such as microglia and astrocytes is not well-described (Figure 1). Previous studies demonstrated that 17α-estradiol reduces microgliosis and astrogliosis in the hypothalamus of aged male mice. Current data suggest that the proportion of oligo, and microglia were increased by the drug treatment, while the proportions of astrocytes were decreased. These data might suggest possible species differences, differences in the treatment regimen, or differences in drug efficiency. This has to be discussed.

      We have reviewed reports describing changes in cell numbers following 17α-estradiol treatment in the brain, using the keywords "17α-estradiol," "17alpha-estradiol," and "microglia" or "astrocyte." Only a limited amount of data was obtained. We found one article indicating that 17α-estradiol treatment in Tg (AβPP(swe)/PS1(ΔE9)) model mice resulted in a decreased microglial cell number compared to the placebo (AβPP(swe)/PS1(ΔE9) mice), but this change was not significant when compared to the non-transgenic control (PMID: 21157032). The transgenic AβPP(swe)/PS1(ΔE9) mouse model may differ from our wild-type aging rat model in this context.

      Moreover, the calculation of cell numbers was based on visual observation under a microscope across several brain tissue slices. This traditional method often yields controversial results. For example, oligodendrocytes in the corpus callosum, fornix, and spinal cord have been reported to be 20-40% more numerous in males than in females based on microscopic observations (PMID: 16452667). In contrast, another study found no significant difference in the number of oligodendrocytes between sexes when using immunohistochemistry staining (PMID: 18709647). Such discrepancies arising from traditional observational methods are inevitable.

      We believe the data presented in this article are reliable because the cell number and cell ratio data were derived from high-throughput cell counting of the entire hypothalamus using single-cell suspension and droplet wrapping (10x Genomics).

      (4) A more detailed analysis of glial cell types within the hypothalamus in response to drugs should be provided.

      We provided more enrichment analysis data of differentially expressed genes between Y, O, and O.T in microglia and astrocytes in Figure 2—figure supplement 3. In this supplemental data, we found unlike that in neurons, Micro displayed lower levels of synapse-related cellular processes in O.T. compared to O.

      (5) The conclusion that CRH neurons are going into senescence is not clearly supported by the data. A more detailed analysis of the hypothalamus such as histological examination to assess cellular senescence markers in CRH neurons, is needed to support this claim.

      We also noticed the inappropriate claim and we have changed "senescent phenotype" to "stressed phenotype" and "abnormal phenotype" in abstract and in results.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Li et al. investigated the potential anti-ageing role of 17α-Estradiol on the hypothalamus of aged rats. To achieve this, they employed a very sophisticated method for single-cell genomic analysis that allowed them to analyze effects on various groups of neurons and non-neuronal cells. They were able to sub-categorize neurons according to their capacity to produce specific neurotransmitters, receptors, or hormones. They found that 17α-Estradiol treatment led to an improvement in several factors related to metabolism and synaptic transmission by bringing the expression levels of many of the genes of these pathways closer or to the same levels as those of young rats, reversing the ageing effect. Interestingly, among all neuronal groups, the proportion of Oxytocin-expressing neurons seems to be the one most significantly changing after treatment with 17α-Estradiol, suggesting an important role of these neurons in mediating its anti-ageing effects. This was also supported by an increase in circulating levels of oxytocin. It was also found that gene expression of corticotropin-releasing hormone neurons was significantly impacted by 17α-Estradiol even though it was not different between aged and young rats, suggesting that these neurons could be responsible for side effects related to this treatment. This article revealed some potential targets that should be further investigated in future studies regarding the role of 17α-Estradiol treatment in aged males.

      Strengths:

      (1) Single-nucleus mRNA sequencing is a very powerful method for gene expression analysis and clustering. The supervised clustering of neurons was very helpful in revealing otherwise invisible differences between neuronal groups and helped identify specific neuronal populations as targets.

      Thanks.

      (2) There is a variety of functions used that allow the differential analysis of a very complex type of data. This led to a better comparison between the different groups on many levels.

      Thanks.

      (3) There were some physiological parameters measured such as circulating hormone levels that helped the interpretation of the effects of the changes in hypothalamic gene expression.

      Thanks.

      Weaknesses

      (1) One main control group is missing from the study, the young males treated with 17α-Estradiol.

      Given that the treatment period lasts six months, which extends beyond the young male rats' age range, we aimed to investigate the perturbation of 17α-Estradiol on the normal aging process. Including data from young males could potentially obscure the treatment's effects in aged males due to age effects, though similar effects between young and aged animals may exist. Long-term treatment of hormone may exert more developmental effects on the young than the old. Consequently, we decided to exclude this group from our initial sample design. We apologize for this omission.

      (2) Even though the technical approach is a sophisticated one, analyzing the whole rat hypothalamus instead of specific nuclei or subregions makes the study weaker.

      The precise targets of 17α-Estradiol within the hypothalamus remain unresolved. Selecting a specific nucleus for study is challenging. The supervised clustering method described in this manuscript allows us to identify the more sensitive neuron subtypes influenced by 17α-Estradiol and aging across the entire hypothalamus, without the need to isolate specific nuclei in a disturbed hypothalamic environment.

      (3) Although the authors claim to have several findings, the data fail to support these claims. You may mean the claim as the senescent phenotype in Crh neuron induced by 17a-estradiol.

      Thanks. We have changed the "senescent phenotype" to "stressed phenotype"  or "abnormal phenotype" in the abstract and results to avoid such claim.

      (4) The study is about improving ageing but no physiological data from the study demonstrated such a claim with the exception of the testes histology which was not properly analyzed and was not even significantly different between the groups.

      The primary objective of this study is to elucidate the effects of 17α-Estradiol on the endocrine system in the aging hypothalamus; exploring anti-aging effects is not the main focus. From the characteristics of the aging hypothalamus, we know that down-regulated GnRH and testosterone levels, along with elevated mTOR signaling, are indicators of aging in these organs (PMID: 37886966, PMID: 37048056, PMID: 22884327). The contrasting signaling networks related to metabolism and synaptic processes significantly differentiate young and aging hypothalami, and 17α-Estradiol helps rebalance these networks, suggesting its potential anti-aging effects.

      (5) Overall, the study remains descriptive with no physiological data to demonstrate that any of the effects on hypothalamic gene expression are related to metabolic, synaptic, or other functions.

      The study focuses on investigating cellular responses and endocrine changes in the aging hypothalamus induced by 17α-estradiol, utilizing single-nucleus RNA sequencing (snRNA-seq) and a novel data mining methodology to analyze various neuron subtypes. It is important to note that this study does not mainly aim to explore the anti-aging effects. Consequently, we have revised the claim in the abstract from “the effects of 17α-estradiol in anti-aging in neurons” to “the effects of 17α-estradiol on aging neurons.” We observed that the lower overall metabolism and increased expression levels of cellular processes in the synapses align with findings previously reported regarding 17α-estradiol. To address the lack of physiological data and the challenges in measuring multiple endocrine factors due to their volatile nature, we employed several bidirectional Mendelian analyses of various genome-wide association study (GWAS) data related to these serum endocrine factors to identify their mutual causal effects.

      Reviewing Editor Comment:

      Based on the Public Reviews and Recommendations for Authors, the Reviewers strongly recommend that revisions include an experimental demonstration of the physiological effects of the treatment on ageing in rats as well as the CRH-senescence link. Additional analysis of the glia would greatly strengthen the study, as would inclusion of females and young male controls. The important point was also raised that the work linking 17a-estradiol was performed in mice, and the link with lifespan in rats is not known. Discussion of this point is recommended.

      We acknowledge that 17α-estradiol has been reported to extend lifespan in male rats, similar to findings in male mice (PMID: 33289482), and we have noted this in the Introduction. We apologize for not conducting further experiments to validate this point.

      Additionally, we have revised the description of the phenotype of senescent CRH neurons to “stressed phenotype” without carrying out further experiments to confirm the senescent phenotype. To provide more clarity on the performance of glial cells during treatment, we have included additional enrichment analysis data of differentially expressed genes among young (Y), old (O), and old treated (O.T) microglia and astrocytes in Figure 2—figure supplement 3. Notably, the behavior of microglia contrasts with that of total neurons concerning synapse-related cellular processes. We apologize for being unable to include female and young controls in this study.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors)

      General comments:

      (1) The manuscript is very hard to read. Proofreading and editing by software or a professional seems necessary. The words "enhanced", "extensive" etc. are not always used in the right way.

      Thanks for the suggestion. We have revised the proofreading and editing. The words "enhanced" and "extensive" were also revised in most sentences.

      (2) The numbers of animals and samples are not well explained. Is it 9 rats overall or per group? If there are 8 testes samples per group, should we assume that there were 4 rats per group? The pooling of the hypothalamic how was it done? Were all the hypothalamic from each group pooled together? A small table with the animals per group and the samples would help.

      We appreciate your reminder regarding the initial mistake in our manuscript preparation. In the preliminary submission, we reported 9 rats based solely on sequencing data and data mining. The revised version (v1) now includes additional experimental data, with an effective total of 12 animals (4 per group). Unfortunately, we overlooked updating this information in the v1 submission. We have since added detailed information in the Materials and Methods sections: Animals, Treatment and Tissues, and snRNA-seq Data Processing, Batch Effect Correction, and Cell Subset Annotation.

      (3) The Clustering is wrong. There are genes in there that do not fall into any of the 3 categories: Neurotransmitters, Receptors, Hormones.

      We have changed the description to “Vast majority of these subtypes were clustered by neuropeptides, hormones, and their receptors within all the neurons”.

      (4) The coloring of groups in the graphs is inconsistent. It must be more homogeneous to make it easier to identify.

      We have changed the colors of groups in Fig. 1D to make the color of cell clusters consistent in Fig. 1A-D.

      (5) The groups c1-c4 are not well explained. How did the authors come up with these?

      We have added more descriptions of c1-c4 in materials and methods in the new version.

      (6) In most cases it's not clear if the authors are talking about cell numbers that express a certain mRNA, the level of expression of a certain mRNA, or both. They need to do a better job using more precise descriptions instead of using general terms such as "signatures", "expression profiles", "affected neurons" etc. It is very hard to understand if the number of neurons is compared between the groups or the gene expression.

      We have changed the "signatures" to "gene signatures" to make it more accurate in meaning. The "affected neurons" were also changed to "sensitive neurons". But sorry that we were not able to find better alternatives to the "expression profiles".

      (7) Sometimes there are claims made without justification or a reference. For example, the claim about the senescence of CRH neurons due to the upregulation of mitochondrial genes and downregulation of adherence junction genes (lines 326-328) should be supported by a reference or own findings.

      The "senescence" here is not appropriate. We have changed it to "stressed phenotype" or "aberrant changes" in abstract and results.

      (8) Young males treated with Estradiol as a control group is necessary and it is missing.

      Your suggestion is appreciated; however, the treatment duration for aged mice (O.T) was set at 6 months, while the young mice were only 4 months old. This disparity makes it challenging to align treatment timelines for the young animals. The primary aim of this study is to investigate the perturbation of 17α-estradiol on the aging process, and any distinct effects due to age effect observed in young males might complicate our understanding of its role in aged males, though similar endocrine effects may exist in the young animals. Long-term treatment of hormone may exert more developmental effects on the young than the old. Therefore, we made the decision to exclude the young samples in our initial study design. We apologize for any confusion this may have caused.

      Specific Comments:

      Line 28: "elevated stresses and decreased synaptic activity": Please make this clearer. Can't claim changes in synaptic activity by gene expression.

      We have changed it to "the expression level of pathways involved in synapse".

      Line 32: "increased Oxytocin": serum Oxytocin.

      We have added the “serum”.

      Line 52 - 54: Any studies from rats?

      Thanks. In rats there is also reported that 17α-estradiol has similar metabolic roles as that in mice (PMID: 33289482) and we have added it to the refences. It’s very useful for this manuscript.

      Line 62 - 65: It wasn't investigated thoroughly in this paper so why was it suggested in the introduction?

      We have deleted this sentence as being suggested.

      Line 70: "synaptic activity" Same as line 28.

      We have changed it to "pathways involved in synaptic activity".

      Line 79: Why were aged rats caged alone and young by two? Could that introduce hypothalamic gene expression effects?

      The young males were bred together in peace. But the aged males will fight and should be kept alone.

      Lines 78, 99, 109-110: It is not clear how many animals per group were used and how many samples per group were used separately and/or grouped. Please be more specific.

      We have added these information to Materials and methods/Animals, treatment and tissues and Materials and methods/snRNA-seq data processing, batch effect correction, and cell subset annotation.

      Line 205: "in O" please add "versus young.".

      We have changed accordingly.

      Line 207: replace "were" with "was" .

      We have alternatively changed the "proportion" to "proportions".

      Line 208: replace "that" with "compared to" and after "in O.T." add "compared to?"

      We have changed accordingly.

      Line 223: "O.T." compared to what? Figure?

      We have changed it accordingly.

      Line 227: Figure?

      We have added (Figure 1E) accordingly.

      Line 229: "synaptic activity" Same as line 28.

      We have revised it.

      Line 235: "synaptic activity" and "neuropeptide secretion" Same as line 28.

      We have revised it.

      Line 256:" interfered" please revise.

      We changed to "exerted".

      Line 263: "on the contrary" please revise.

      We have changed "on the contrary" to "opposite".

      Line 270: "conversed" did you mean "conserved"?

      We have changed "conversed" to "inversed".

      Line 296-298: Please explain. Why would these be side effects?

      It’s hard to explain, therefore, we deleted the words "side effects".

      Line 308: "synaptic activity" Same as line 28.

      We have changed it to "expression levels of synapse-related cellular processes".

      Line 314: "and sex hormone secretion and signaling"Isn't this expected?

      Yes, it is expected. We have added it to the sentence "and, as expected, sex hormone secretion and signaling".

      Line 325-328: Why is this senescence? Reference?

      We have added “potent” to it.

      Line 360-361: This doesn't show elevated synaptic activity.

      "elevated synaptic activity" was changed to "The elevated expression of synapse-related pathways"

      Line 363-364: "Unfortunately" is not a scientific expression and show bias.

      We have changed it to "Notably".

      Line 376: Similar as above.

      Yes, we have change it to "in contrast".

      Lines 382-385: This is speculation. Please move to discussion.

      Sorry for that. We think the causal effects derived from MR result is evidence. As such, we have not changed it.

      Line 389: Please revise "hormone expressing".

      We have changed it accordingly.

      Line 401: Isn't this effect expected due to feedback inhibition of the biochemical pathway? Please comment.

      The binding capability of 17alpha-estradiol to estrogen receptors and its role in transcriptional activation remain core questions surrounded by controversy. Earlier studies suggest that 17alpha-estradiol exhibits at least 200 times less activity than 17beta-estradiol (PMID: 2249627, PMID: 16024755). However, recent data indicate that 17alpha-estradiol shows comparable genomic binding and transcriptional activation through estrogen receptor α (Esr1) to that of 17beta-estradiol (PMID: 33289482). Additionally, there is evidence that 17alpha-estradiol has anti-estrogenic effects in rats (PMID: 16042770). These findings imply possible feedback inhibition via estrogen receptors. Furthermore, 17alpha-estradiol likely differs from 17beta-estradiol due to its unique metabolic consequences and its potential to slow aging in males, an effect not attributed to 17beta-estradiol. For instance, neurons are also targets of 17alpha-estradiol, with Esr1 not being the sole target (PMID: 38776045). Nevertheless, the precise effective targets of 17alpha-estradiol are still unresolved.

      Line 409: This conclusion cannot be made because the effect is not statistically significant. Can say "trend" etc.

      Thanks for the recommendation. We have added "potential" in front of the conclusion.

      Line 426: "suggesting" please revise.

      sorry, it’s a verb.

      Lines 426-428: This is speculation. Please move to discussion.

      The elevated GnRH levels in O.T., observed through EIA analysis, suggest a deduction regarding the direct causal effects of 17alpha-estradiol on various endocrine factors related to feeding, energy homeostasis, reproduction, osmotic regulation, stress response, and neuronal plasticity through MR analysis. Thus, we have not amended our position. We apologize for any confusion.

      Lines 431-432: improved compared to what?

      The statement have been revised as " The most striking role of 17α-estradiol treatment revealed in this study showed that HPG axis was substantially improved in the levels of serum Gnrh and testosterone".

      Line 435: " Estrogen Receptor Antagonists". Please revise.

      Thanks for the recommendation. We have changed it to "estrogen receptor antagonists".

      Line 438" "Secrete". Please revise.

      Sorry, it is "secret".

      Lines 439-449: None of this has been demonstrated. Please remove these conclusions.

      These are not conclusions but rather intriguing topics for discussion. Given the role of 17alpha-estradiol in promoting testosterone and reducing estradiol levels in males, we believe it is worthwhile to explore the potential application of 17alpha-estradiol in increasing testosterone levels in aged males, particularly those with hypogonadism.

      Lines 450-457: No females were included in this study. Why? Also, why is this discussed? It is relevant but doesn't belong in this manuscript since it was not studied here.

      Testosterone levels are crucial for male health, while estradiol levels are essential for the health and fertility of females. Previous studies have demonstrated that 17α-estradiol does not contribute to lifespan extension in females. Given the effects of 17α-estradiol on males—specifically, its role in promoting testosterone and reducing estradiol levels—we believe it is important to discuss the potential sex-biased effects of 17α-estradiol, as this could inform future investigations. Therefore, we have chosen not to make changes to this section.

      Lines 458-459: This was not demonstrated in this article. Please remove.

      We have restricted the claim to "expression level of energy metabolism in hypothalamic neurons".

      Line 464: "Promoted lifespan extension" Not demonstrated. Please remove.

      At the end of the sentence it was revised as "which may be a contributing factor in promoting lifespan extension".

      Line 466: "Showed" No.

      The whole sentence was deleted in the new version.

      Line 483: "the sex-based effects". Not studied here.

      Since the changes in testosterone levels are significant in this dataset and this hormone has a sex-biased nature, we find it worthwhile to suggest this as a topic for future investigation. We have added "which needs further verification in the future" at the end of this sentence.

    1. Author response:

      eLife Assessment<br /> This valuable study suggests that Naa10, an N-α-acetyltransferase with known mutations that disrupt neurodevelopment, acetylates Btbd3, which has been implicated in neurite outgrowth and obsessive-compulsive disorder, in a manner that regulates F-actin dynamics to facilitate neurite outgrowth. While the study provides promising insights and biochemical, co-immunoprecipitation, and proteomic data that enhance our understanding of protein N-acetylation in neuronal development, the evidence supporting larger claims is incomplete. Nonetheless, the implications of these findings are noteworthy, particularly regarding neurodevelopmental and psychiatric conditions tied to altered expression of Naa10 or Btbd3.

      Thank you very much for recognizing our study, carefully reviewing our work, and providing insightful comments and constructive criticism!

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The manuscript examines the role of Naa10 in cKO animals, in immortalized neurons, and in primary neurons. Given that Naa10 mutations in humans produce defects in nervous system function, the authors used various strategies to try to find a relevant neuronal phenotype and its potential molecular mechanism.

      This work contains valuable findings that suggest that the depletion of Naa10 from CA1 neurons in mice exacerbates anxiety-like behaviors. Using neuronal-derived cell lines authors establish a link between N-acetylase activity, Btbd3 binding to CapZb, and F-actin, ultimately impinging on neurite extension. The evidence demonstrating this is in most cases incomplete, since some key controls are missing and clearly described or simply because claims are not supported by the data. The manuscript also contains biochemical, co-immunoprecipitation, and proteomic data that will certainly be of value to our knowledge of the effects of protein N--acetylation in neuronal development and function.

      Thanks! It would be appreciated if the Reviewer could point out in the public review which experiment lacks a control group.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In this study, the authors sought to elucidate the neural mechanisms underlying the role of Naa10 in neurodevelopmental disruptions with a focus on its role in the hippocampus. The authors use an impressive array of techniques to identify a chain of events that occurs in the signaling pathway starting from Naa10 acetylating Btbd3 to regulation of F-actin dynamics that are fundamental to neurite outgrowth. They provide convincing evidence that Naa10 acetylates Btbd3, that Btbd3 facilitates CapZb binding to F-actin in a Naa10 acetylation-dependent manner, and that this CapZb binding to F-actin is key to neurite outgrowth. Besides establishing this signaling pathway, the authors contribute novel lists of Naa10 and Btbd3 interacting partners, which will be useful for future investigations into other mechanisms of action of Naa10 or Btbd3 through alternative cell signaling pathways.

      Thank you very much for recognizing our study!

      The evidence presented for an anxiety-like behavioral phenotype as a result of Naa10 dysfunction is mixed and tenuous, and assays for the primary behaviors known to be altered by Naa10 mutations in humans were not tested. As such, behavioral findings and their translational implications should be interpreted with caution.

      (1) For the anxiety-like behavioral phenotype, we provided a paragraph titled “Naa10 and stress-induced anxiety” in the Discussion section of the text: “Our investigations revealed that hippocampal CA1-KO of Naa10 did not exhibit significant differences in the open field test (Figure S1K) but led to anxiety-like behavior in mice in the elevated plus maze (EPM) test (Figure 1A). This disparity might be attributed to the specific design of the EPM test, which is tailored to elicit a conflict between an animal's inclination to explore and its fear of open spaces and elevated areas. This distinction implies that Naa10 might play a role in stress responses within the emotional regulation circuitry, particularly in navigating potentially threatening and anxiety-provoking environments.” The open field test offers a less challenging, open environment that primarily promotes exploratory behavior. We agree that additional assays, such as the light-dark box test, would be helpful in clarifying the issue.

      (2) We agree that the behavioral findings and their translational implications should be interpreted with caution. The primary neurological behaviors known to be altered by Naa10 mutations in humans include intellectual disability and autism-like syndrome with defective emotional control. These behaviors are influenced by many factors, including defects in the hippocampal CA1. Thus, we tested hippocampal CA1 Naa10-KO mice using the Y-maze, tail suspension test, open field test, and elevated plus maze (EPM). However, only the EPM results were affected, while the other tests showed no significant changes. It should be noted that our study employed a postnatal, CA1-specific Naa10 conditional knockout (cKO) model driven by Camk2a-Cre, which selectively depletes Naa10 from hippocampal CA1 neurons after birth. In contrast, Naa10 mutations in human patients involve global effects and impact multiple brain regions from the embryonic stage, leading to a broader spectrum of phenotypes. The limited disruption in our model likely explains the absence of learning and memory deficits and the incomplete recapitulation of the full range of patient phenotypes. Furthermore, Naa10 knockout may not produce the same effects as Naa10 mutations. Our current study is primarily intended to explore the physiological function of Naa10 in hippocampal function.

      (3) We will replace all instances of “anxiety behavior” with “anxiety-like behavior.”

      Finally, while not central to the main cell signaling pathway delineated, the characterization of brain region-specific and cell maturity of Naa10 expression patterns was presented in few to single animals and not quantified, and as such should also be interpreted with caution.

      We agree that we should provide additional Naa10 immunostaining data from more than three WT and hippocampal CA1 Naa10-KO mouse brains, as well as quantify data such as the silver staining and Light Sheet Fluorescence Microscopy results presented in Figures 1C and 1D, respectively. Nevertheless, the current report presents consistent results across different mice used for various assays. For example, Figures 1B-D, with three different assays, each demonstrate that Naa10-cKO reduces neurite complexity in vivo.

      On a broader level, these findings have implications for neurodevelopment and potentially, although not tested here, synaptic plasticity in adulthood, which means this novel pathway may be fundamental for brain health.

      Thank you very much again for recognizing our study!

      Summarized list of minor concerns

      (1) The early claims of the manuscript are supported by very small sample sizes (often 1-3) and/or lack of quantification, particularly in Figures S1 and 1.

      We agree that we should provide additional Naa10 immunostaining data from more than three WT and hippocampal CA1 Naa10-KO mouse brains, as well as quantify data such as the silver staining and Light Sheet Fluorescence Microscopy results presented in Figures 1C and 1D, respectively. Nevertheless, the current report presents consistent results across different mice used for various assays. For example, Figures 1B-D, with three different assays, each demonstrate that Naa10-cKO reduces neurite complexity in vivo.

      (2) Evidence is insufficient for CA1-specific knockdown of Naa10.

      The Camk2a-Cre mice used in this study were derived from Dr. Susumu Tonegawa’s laboratory. According to the referenced paper, this strain restricts Cre/loxP recombination to the forebrain, with particularly high efficiency in the hippocampal CA1. Consistently, our data show that Naa10 was almost completely absent in the CA1 but partially depleted in the DG of the Naa10-cKO mice (Figure S1F in the text). Similar results were observed in a different pair of

      (3) The relationship between the behaviors measured, which centered around mood, and Ogden syndrome, was not clear, and likely other behavioral measures would be more translationally relevant for this study. Furthermore, the evidence for an anxiety-like phenotype was mixed.

      (1) For the anxiety-like behavioral phenotype, we provided a paragraph titled “Naa10 and stress-induced anxiety” in the Discussion section of the text: “Our investigations revealed that hippocampal CA1-KO of Naa10 did not exhibit significant differences in the open field test (Figure S1K) but led to anxiety-like behavior in mice in the elevated plus maze (EPM) test (Figure 1A). This disparity might be attributed to the specific design of the EPM test, which is tailored to elicit a conflict between an animal's inclination to explore and its fear of open spaces and elevated areas. This distinction implies that Naa10 might play a role in stress responses within the emotional regulation circuitry, particularly in navigating potentially threatening and anxiety-provoking environments.” The open field test offers a less challenging, open environment that primarily promotes exploratory behavior. We agree that additional assays, such as the light-dark box test, would be helpful in clarifying the issue.

      (2) We agree that the behavioral findings and their translational implications should be interpreted with caution. The primary neurological behaviors known to be altered by Naa10 mutations in humans include intellectual disability and autism-like syndrome with defective emotional control. These behaviors are influenced by many factors, including defects in the hippocampal CA1. Thus, we tested hippocampal CA1 Naa10-KO mice using the Y-maze, tail suspension test, open field test, and elevated plus maze (EPM). However, only the EPM results were affected, while the other tests showed no significant changes. It should be noted that our study employed a postnatal, CA1-specific Naa10 conditional knockout (cKO) model driven by Camk2a-Cre, which selectively depletes Naa10 from hippocampal CA1 neurons after birth. In contrast, Naa10 mutations in human patients involve global effects and impact multiple brain regions from the embryonic stage, leading to a broader spectrum of phenotypes. The limited disruption in our model likely explains the absence of learning and memory deficits and the incomplete recapitulation of the full range of patient phenotypes. Furthermore, Naa10 knockout may not produce the same effects as Naa10 mutations. Our current study is primarily intended to explore the physiological function of Naa10 in hippocampal function.

      (3) We will replace all instances of “anxiety behavior” with “anxiety-like behavior.”

      (4) Btbd3 is characterized by the authors as an OCD risk gene, but its status as such is not well supported by the most recent, better-powered genome-wide association studies than the one that originally implicated Btbd3. However, there is evidence that Btbd3 expression, including selectively in the hippocampus, is implicated in OCD-relevant behaviors in mice.

      Thanks for clarifying the issue!

      (5) The reporting of the statistics lacks sufficient detail for the reader to deduce how experimental replicates were defined.

      We believe we have provided sufficient detail for readers to deduce how experimental replicates were defined in each corresponding figure legend. It would be appreciated if the Reviewer could point out which specific figures lack sufficient details.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1:

      Summary:<br /> In this manuscript, Bisht et al address the hypothesis that protein folding chaperones may be implicated in aggregopathies and in particular Tau aggregation, as a means to identify novel therapeutic routes for these largely neurodegenerative conditions.

      The authors conducted a genetic screen in the Drosophila eye, which facilitates the identification of mutations that either enhance or suppress a visible disturbance in the nearly crystalline organization of the compound eye. They screened by RNA interference all 64 known Drosophila chaperones and revealed that mutations in 20 of them exaggerate the Tau-dependent phenotype, while 15 ameliorated it. The enhancer of the degeneration group included 2 subunits of the typically heterohexameric prefoldin complex and other co-translational chaperones.

      In a previous paper, we identified 95 Drosophila chaperones (Raut et al., 2017). We request that “all 64 known Drosophila chaperones” be replaced with “64 out of 95 known Drosophila chaperones” to make it factually correct.

      Strengths:

      Regarding this memory defect upon V377M tau expression. Kosmidis et al (2010) pmid: 20071510, demonstrated that pan-neuronal expression of TauV377M disrupts the organization of the mushroom bodies, the seat of long-term memory in odor/shock and odor/reward conditioning. If the novel memory assay the authors use depends on the adult brain structures, then the memory deficit can be explained in this manner.

      If the mushroom bodies are defective upon TauV377M expression does overexpression of Pfdn5 or 6 reverse this deficit? This would argue strongly in favor of the microtubule stabilization explanation.

      We agree that the disruptive organization of the mushroom body may cause memory deficits upon hTauV337M expression and that expression of Pfdn5 or Pfdn6 could reverse the deficits. One possible mechanism by which overexpression of Pfdn5/6 could rescue the Tau-induced memory deficits may be due to the stabilization of microtubules in the mushroom bodies.

      Proposed revision: We will assess if Tau-induced mushroom body disruption can be rescued with the overexpression of Pfdn5 or Pfdn6.

      Weakness:

      What is unclear however is how Pfdn5 loss or even overexpression affects the pathological Tau phenotypes. Does Pfdn5 (or 6) interact directly with TauV377M? Colocalization within tissues is a start, but immunoprecipitations would provide additional independent evidence that this is so.

      Our data suggests that Pfdn5 stabilizes neuronal microtubules by directly associating with it, and loss of Pfdn5 exacerbates Tau-phenotypes by destabilizing microtubules. However, as the reviewer notes, analysis of direct interaction between Pfdn5 and hTau<sup>V337M</sup> might provide further insights into the mechanism of Pfdn5 and Tau-aggregation.

      Proposed revision: We will perform colocalization analysis and coimmunoprecipitation to ask if Pfdn5 colocalizes and directly interacts with Tau.

      Does Pfdn5 loss exacerbate TauV377M phenotypes because it destabilizes microtubules, which are already at least partially destabilized by Tau expression? Rescue of the phenotypes by overexpression of Pfdn5 agrees with this notion.

      However, Cowan et al (2010) pmid: 20617325 demonstrated that wild-type Tau accumulation in larval motor neurons indeed destabilizes microtubules in a Tau phosphorylation-dependent manner. So, is TauV377M hyperphosphorylated in the larvae?? What happens to TauV377M phosphorylation when Pfdn5 is missing and presumably more Tau is soluble and subject to hyperphosphorylation as predicted by the above?

      Proposed revisions: We will overexpress Pfdn5 or Pfdn6 with hTau<sup>V337M</sup> and ask if microtubule disruption caused by hTau<sup>V337M</sup> is rescued. Further, we will analyze the phospho-Tau levels in controls and Pfdn5 mutant background.

      Expression of WT human Tau (which is associated with most common Tauopathies other than FTDP-17) as Cowan et al suggest has significant effects on microtubule stability, but such Tau-expressing larvae are largely viable. Will one mutant copy of the Pfdn5 knockout enhance the phenotype of these larvae?? Will it result in lethality? Such data will serve to generalize the effects of Pfdn5 beyond the two FDTP-17 mutations utilized.

      Proposed revision: We will incorporate data about the effect of heterozygous mutation of Pfdn5 on the lethality and synaptic phenotypes associated with the hTau<sup>WT</sup> and hTau<sup>V337M</sup> in the revised manuscript.

      Does the loss of Pfdn5 affect TauV377M (and WTTau) levels?? Could the loss of Pfdn5 simply result in increased Tau levels? And conversely, does overexpression of Pfdn5 or 6 reduce Tau levels?? This would explain the enhancement and suppression of TauV377M (and possibly WT Tau) phenotypes. It is an easily addressed, trivial explanation at the observational level, which if true begs for a distinct mechanistic approach.

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting an alternate model for the Pfdn5 function. We will perform the Western blot analysis to assess Tau<sup>WT</sup> and Tau<sup>V337M</sup> levels in the absence of Pfdn5 or animals coexpressing Tau and Pfdn5. We will incorporate these data and conclusions in the revised manuscript.

      Finally, the authors argue that TauV377M forms aggregates in the larval brain based on large puncta observed especially upon loss of Pfdn5. This may be so, but protocols are available to validate this molecularly the presence of insoluble Tau aggregates (for example, pmid: 36868851) or soluble Tau oligomers as these apparently differentially affect Tau toxicity. Does Pfdn5 loss exaggerate the toxic oligomers and overexpression promotes the more benign large aggregates??

      We will perform the Tau solubility assay in control, in the absence of Pfdn5 or animals coexpressing Tau and Pfdn5. Moreover, we will also ask if the large Tau puncta formed in the absence of Pfdn5 are soluble oligomers or stable aggregates. We have found that the coexpression of Tau and Pfdn5 does not result in the formation of  Tau aggregates. We will incorporate these and other relevant data in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Bisht et al detail a novel interaction between the chaperone, Prefoldin 5, microtubules, and tau-mediated neurodegeneration, with potential relevance for Alzheimer's disease and other tauopathies. Using Drosophila, the study shows that Pfdn5 is a microtubule-associated protein, which regulates tubulin monomer levels and can stabilize microtubule filaments in the axons of peripheral nerves. The work further suggests that Pfdn5/6 may antagonize Tau aggregation and neurotoxicity. While the overall findings may be of interest to those investigating the axonal and synaptic cytoskeleton, the detailed mechanisms for the observed phenotypes remain unresolved and the translational relevance for tauopathy pathogenesis is yet to be established. Further, a number of key controls and important experiments are missing that are needed to fully interpret the findings.The major weakness relates to the experiments and claims of interactions with Tau-mediated neurodegeneration. In particular, it is unclear whether knockdown of Pfdn5 may cause eye phenotypes independent of Tau. Further, the GMR>tau phenotype appears to have been incorrectly utilized to examine age-dependent, neurodegeneration.

      We have consistently found the progression of eye degeneration in the population of animals expressing Tau<sup>V337M</sup>, measured as the number of fused ommatidia/total number of ommatidia, with age. A few other studies have also shown age-dependent progressive degeneration in Drosophila retinal axons or lamina (Iijima-Ando et al., 2012; Sakakibara et al., 2018). We appreciate other studies that have proposed hTau-induced eye degeneration as a developmental defect (Malmanche et al., 2017; Sakakibara et al., 2023).

      Proposed revision: a) We will analyze the age-dependent neurodegeneration in the adult brain to further support our main conclusion that Pfdn5 ameliorates hTauV337M-induced progressive neurodegeneration.

      b) We have used three independent Pfdn5 RNAi lines (the RNAi's target different regions of Pfdn5) – all of which enhance the Tau phenotypes. The knockdown of any of these RNAi lines with GMR-Gal4 does not give detectable eye phenotypes. We will include these data in the revised manuscript.

      This manuscript argues that its findings may be relevant to thinking about mechanisms and therapies applicable to tauopathies; however, this is premature given that many questions remain about the interactions from Drosophila, the detailed mechanisms remain unresolved, and absent evidence that tau and Pfdn may similarly interact in the mammalian neuronal context. Therefore, this work would be strongly enhanced by experiments in human or murine neuronal culture or supportive evidence from analyses of human data.

      Proteome analysis of Alzheimer's brain tissue shows that the Pfdn5 level is reduced in patients (Askenazi et al., 2023; Tao et al., 2020). Moreover, the Pfdn5 expression level was found to be reduced in the blood samples from AD patients (Ji et al., 2022). Another study further validates the age-dependent reduction of Pfdn5 in the tauopathy transgenic murine model (Kadoyama et al., 2019). Together, these reports highlight a potential link between Pfdn5 levels and tauopathies. We will revise the manuscript to reflect these findings in more detail.

      References

      Askenazi, M., Kavanagh, T., Pires, G., Ueberheide, B., Wisniewski, T., and Drummond, E. (2023). Compilation of reported protein changes in the brain in Alzheimer's disease. Nat Commun 14, 4466. 10.1038/s41467-023-40208-x.

      Iijima-Ando, K., Sekiya, M., Maruko-Otake, A., Ohtake, Y., Suzuki, E., Lu, B., and Iijima, K.M. (2012). Loss of axonal mitochondria promotes tau-mediated neurodegeneration and Alzheimer's disease-related tau phosphorylation via PAR-1. PLoS Genet 8, e1002918. 10.1371/journal.pgen.1002918.

      Ji, W., An, K., Wang, C., and Wang, S. (2022). Bioinformatics analysis of diagnostic biomarkers for Alzheimer's disease in peripheral blood based on sex differences and support vector machine algorithm. Hereditas 159, 38. 10.1186/s41065-022-00252-x.

      Kadoyama, K., Matsuura, K., Takano, M., Maekura, K., Inoue, Y., and Matsuyama, S. (2019). Changes in the expression of prefoldin subunit 5 depending on synaptic plasticity in the mouse hippocampus. Neurosci Lett 712, 134484. 10.1016/j.neulet.2019.134484.

      Malmanche, N., Dourlen, P., Gistelinck, M., Demiautte, F., Link, N., Dupont, C., Vanden Broeck, L., Werkmeister, E., Amouyel, P., Bongiovanni, A., et al. (2017). Developmental Expression of 4-Repeat-Tau Induces Neuronal Aneuploidy in Drosophila Tauopathy Models. Sci Rep 7, 40764. 10.1038/srep40764.

      Raut, S., Mallik, B., Parichha, A., Amrutha, V., Sahi, C., and Kumar, V. (2017). RNAi-Mediated Reverse Genetic Screen Identified Drosophila Chaperones Regulating Eye and Neuromuscular Junction Morphology. G3 (Bethesda) 7, 2023-2038. 10.1534/g3.117.041632.

      Sakakibara, Y., Sekiya, M., Fujisaki, N., Quan, X., and Iijima, K.M. (2018). Knockdown of wfs1, a fly homolog of Wolfram syndrome 1, in the nervous system increases susceptibility to age- and stress-induced neuronal dysfunction and degeneration in Drosophila. PLoS Genet 14, e1007196. 10.1371/journal.pgen.1007196.

      Sakakibara, Y., Yamashiro, R., Chikamatsu, S., Hirota, Y., Tsubokawa, Y., Nishijima, R., Takei, K., Sekiya, M., and Iijima, K.M. (2023). Drosophila Toll-9 is induced by aging and neurodegeneration to modulate stress signaling and its deficiency exacerbates tau-mediated neurodegeneration. iScience 26, 105968. 10.1016/j.isci.2023.105968.

      Tao, Y., Han, Y., Yu, L., Wang, Q., Leng, S.X., and Zhang, H. (2020). The Predicted Key Molecules, Functions, and Pathways That Bridge Mild Cognitive Impairment (MCI) and Alzheimer's Disease (AD). Front Neurol 11, 233. 10.3389/fneur.2020.00233.

    1. Author response:

      We appreciate the constructive feedback from the reviewers and will work to address many of these concerns in a revised version.  Here, we provide initial responses to a few key points that the reviewers raised:

      (1) The reviewers rightly pointed out that it is very important to clearly define and explain what qualifies as metastatic potential to particular organs in our system.  We acknowledge the valuable contributions of animal models in metastatic cancer studies, but here we intentionally limited our scope to metastasis that had occurred within the human system only.  For example, we use data from cancer cells that model human organotropism from the breast to the lung, since the cells originated from infiltrative ductal carcinoma (human breast) but were collected from pleural effusions (human lung). We propose that in this case a comparison with a human lung cancer-derived cell line that was itself purified from a pleural effusion could reveal factors essential for lung metastasis, without adding the confounder of an animal microenvironment.  The MetMap Explorer contains valuable information, but the “metastatic potential of each cell line” is measured in a mouse environment.  Knowing that a particular cell line, which originated from a human lung metastasis, can further metastasize to other organs in a mouse does not necessarily mean that those cells could do so in humans.  The microenvironment responses to metastatic colonization can differ among species.  Further, the changes a cell needs to make to adapt to a new organ system in a mouse could be confounded by the changes needed to adapt to mouse conditions in general.  Finally, migration from a site of ectopic injection may not mimic migration from an initial tumor site.  We agree that the very best data would come from matched primary and metastatic tumors in the same human patient, but those data do not currently exist and generating them would require future work beyond the scope of this study.   In our revision, we will ensure that  we more clearly explain how and why we chose the cell lines we did and what the advantages and limitations of this choice are.

      (2) The reviewers are correct that our unsupervised Principal component analysis (PCA) does not precisely stratify cells according to epithelial-mesenchymal status.  In a high dimensional, complex system, it is expected than an unsupervised analysis such as this will not capture just one biological feature in the first principal component. Therefore, when we performed PCA on the compartmental organization profiles of different healthy and cancerous cell lines, instead of finding the largest variation (PC1) following exactly EMT state, it captured an ordering that includes influences from epithelial-mesenchymal state, disease condition, nuclear geometry, and other cellular properties.  However, it was striking that this completely unsupervised analysis did match previous annotations of EMT state so well (as seen in supp fig 1b).  Therefore, we conclude that the most prominent variations in A/B compartment signature strongly relate to EMT state.   In the revision, we will more clearly present the caveats of this interpretation.

      (3) Our decision to focus on A/B compartmentalization rather than TAD or loop structure in this analysis was intentional and biologically motivated, rather than solely being a reflection of data resolution.  Both compartments and topologically associated domains (TADs) are key parts of genome organization and disruption of these structures has the potential to alter downstream gene regulation, as shown by numerous studies. But, compartments have been found, more so than TADs, to be strongly associated with cell type and cell fate.  Therefore,  in this manuscript, we decided to focus only on the compartment organization changes between different healthy and cancerous cells as they are more likely to represent the stable alterations of the genome organization malignant transformations.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews

      Reviewer #1: 

      Summary:

      In this study, Avila et al. tested the hypothesis that chronic pain states are associated with changes in the excitability of the medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC). The authors used the slope of the aperiodic component of the EEG power spectrum (= the aperiodic exponent) as a novel, non-invasive proxy for the cortical excitation-inhibition ratio. They performed source localization to estimate the EEG signals generated specifically by the mPFC. By pooling resting-state EEG recordings from three existing datasets, the authors were able to compare the aperiodic exponent in the mPFC and across the whole brain (at all modeled cortical sources) between 149 chronic pain patients and 115 healthy controls. Additionally, they assessed the relationship between the aperiodic exponent and pain intensity reported by the patients. To account for heterogeneity in pain etiology, the analysis was also performed separately for two patient subgroups with different chronic pain conditions (chronic back pain and chronic widespread pain). The study found robust evidence against differences in the aperiodic exponent in the mPFC between people with chronic pain and healthy participants, and no correlation was observed between the aperiodic exponent and pain intensity. These findings were consistent across different patient subgroups and were corroborated by the whole-brain analysis.

      Strengths:

      The study is based on sound scientific reasoning and rigorously employs suitable methods to test the hypothesis. It follows a pre-registered protocol, which greatly increases the transparency and, consequently, the credibility of the reported results. In addition to the planned steps, the authors used a multiverse analysis to ensure the robustness of the results across different methodological choices. I find this particularly interesting, as the EEG aperiodic exponent has only recently been linked to network excitability, and the most appropriate methods for its extraction and analysis are still being determined. The methods are clearly and comprehensively described, making this paper very useful for researchers planning similar studies. The results are convincing, and supported by informative figures, and the lack of the expected difference in mPFC excitability between the tested groups is thoroughly and constructively discussed.

      We are grateful for the appreciation of the strengths of our study.  

      Weaknesses:

      Firstly, although I appreciate the relatively large sample size, pooling data recorded by different researchers using different experimental protocols inevitably increases sample variability and may limit the availability of certain measures, as was the case here with the reports of pain intensity in the patient group. Secondly, the analysis heavily relies on the estimation of cortical sources, an approach that offers many advantages but may yield imprecise results, especially when default conduction models, source models, and electrode coordinates are used. In my opinion, this point should be discussed as well.

      We agree that the heterogeneous sample of people with chronic pain increases variability and limits the availability of clinical measures. We further agree on the limitations of source space analysis. Therefore, we have added these limitations to the discussion section.

      Reviewer #2: 

      Summary:

      This study evaluated the aperiodic component in the medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC) using restingstate EEG recordings from 149 individuals with chronic pain and 115 healthy participants. The findings showed no significant differences in the aperiodic component of the mPFC between the two groups, nor was there any correlation between the aperiodic component and pain intensity. These results were consistent across various chronic pain subtypes and were corroborated by whole-brain analyses. The study's robustness was further reinforced by preregistration and multiverse analyses, which accounted for a wide range of methodological choices.

      Strengths:

      This study was rigorously conducted, yielding clear and conclusive results. Furthermore, it adhered to stringent open and reproducible science practices, including preregistration, blinded data analysis, and Bayesian hypothesis testing. All data and code have been made openly available, underscoring the study's commitment to transparency and reproducibility.

      We appreciate the appraisal of the strengths of our study, highlighting our efforts in open and reproducible science practices.

      Weaknesses:

      The aperiodic exponent of the EEG power spectrum is often regarded as an indicator of the excitatory/inhibitory (E/I) balance. However, this measure may not be the most accurate or optimal for quantifying E/I balance, a limitation that the authors might consider addressing in the future.

      We are grateful for this suggestion and fully agree that the aperiodic component of the power spectrum is not necessarily the most optimal and accurate measure for quantifying E/I balance. We have now included this limitation in the discussion section.

      Recommendations for the authors

      Reviewer #1: 

      (1) In the Results section, it might be helpful to provide the mean values of the aperiodic exponent (before age correction) for all tested groups and subgroups. As this measure is still not widely used, providing these values would allow readers to better understand the normal range of the aperiodic exponent.

      We have added the mean values of the aperiodic exponent and their standard deviation (before age correction) to the manuscript's results section (page 6 and 11).

      (2) When reporting the aperiodic exponent across all cortical sources (Q3), I think it would be useful to include the raw values in Figure 6 in the main text rather than in the Supplementary Materials. At a glance, these plots seem to suggest that the aperiodic exponent differs between groups in the occipital and parietal regions, even though no tests were significant after correcting for multiple comparisons. Maybe this observation also deserves a mention in the text and possibly in the Discussion..?

      We have moved the report on the aperiodic exponent across all cortical sources from the Supplementary Material to the main text. It is now Fig. 7 of the main manuscript. Moreover, we agree that the plots suggest group differences in certain brain regions. However, according to our rigorous open and reproducible science practices and pre-registration, we prefer not to speculate on these non-significant findings. 

      (3) In the Methods section, when describing the participants, the authors state that "Gender was balanced across both groups...". It might be better to avoid referring to the datasets as "balanced," considering that the sample includes almost twice as many females as males.

      We have replaced the misleading statement with the more precise statement that ”the gender ratio of both groups was similar.”

      (4) In the Methods section, when describing the source localization, I find it slightly confusing that the authors first mention the anterior cingulate cortex as a possible label included in the mPFC cortical parcels but then state that the version of the cortical atlas used did not contain such a label. It might be simpler not to mention the cingulate cortex at all.

      We have deleted the misleading sentence from the manuscript.  

      Reviewer #2: 

      (1) The aperiodic exponent of the EEG power spectrum is often considered an indicator of the excitatory/inhibitory (E/I) balance, but this measure can be susceptible to artifacts. It is important to acknowledge this limitation and consider exploring alternative measures to quantify the E/I ratio in future studies.

      We are grateful for this suggestion and fully agree that the aperiodic component of the power spectrum is not necessarily the most optimal and accurate measure for quantifying E/I balance. We have now included this limitation in the discussion section.

      (2) The study assumed a linear relationship between the E/I ratio (represented by the aperiodic exponent of the EEG power spectrum) and chronic pain. However, this assumption may not hold true in all cases, and this point could be discussed in the study.

      We fully agree that the relationship between the E/I ratio and chronic pain might not be a linear one and have added this point to the discussion section.

      (3) The aperiodic component was characterized in eyes-closed resting-state EEG recordings, although EEG data were collected in both eyes-closed and eyes-open conditions. The authors could also consider assessing the aperiodic component from EEG data with eyes open.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have focused our analysis on eyes-closed recordings since these recordings are usually less contaminated by artifacts than eyes-open recordings. Moreover, in our current datasets, some participants were missing eyes-open recordings. We agree that performing similar analyses for the eyes-open recordings would also be interesting. However, adding these analyses would double the amount of data included in the manuscript, which would likely overload it. We have, therefore, now included a statement to the discussion that future studies should also analyze eyes-open EEG recordings.  

      (4) The EEG power spectrum was calculated from signals after source reconstruction, a crucial step for targeting specific brain regions. However, this process can introduce potential signal distortions, such as variations in source waveforms depending on different regularization parameters. To ensure the robustness of the results, the authors could perform the same analysis at the sensor level, for example, using signals recorded at Fz.

      We agree on the potential shortcomings and limitations of source space analysis and have added this limitation to the discussion section.

      (5) It would be beneficial to present the raw EEG power spectrum averaged across subjects for each condition, along with the scalp distribution of the aperiodic exponent. This would enhance readers' understanding of the study and help demonstrate the quality of the data.

      We are grateful for this suggestion and added the power spectrum for each condition and the scalp distribution of the aperiodic exponent to the Supplementary Material.

      (6) Linear regression models were used to control for the influence of age on aperiodic exponents and pain intensity ratings. However, it is unclear why other relevant variables, such as gender and medication use, were not considered.

      We agree that the aperiodic exponent might be influenced by gender and medication. As these analyses had not been included in our pre-registered analysis plan, we have not performed them. Moreover, although we agree that gender might have an impact, we have not found any evidence for this so far. Regarding medication, we fully agree that medication can influence the measure. However, medication was very heterogeneous, including drugs with fundamentally different mechanisms of action. Thus, we do not see a robust way to appropriately analyze these effects with sufficient statistical power. We have now added this important point to the discussion section.

      (7) The authors may consider addressing or discussing the impact of inter-individual variability on the negative results, particularly given that the data were derived from multiple experiments.

      We agree that the heterogeneous sample of people with chronic pain increases variability and limits the availability of clinical measures. We have added this limitation to the discussion.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This valuable work advances our understanding of the foraging behaviour of aerial insectivorous birds. Its major strength is the large volume of tracking data and the accuracy of those data. However, the evidence supporting the main claim of optimal foraging is incomplete.

      We deeply appreciate the thoughtful review provided by the reviewers, including their valuable insights and meticulous attention to detail. Each comment has been thoroughly evaluated, leading to substantial improvements in the manuscript. Your constructive critique has been instrumental in refining our research and rectifying any oversights. We are confident that the revised article will make a substantial contribution to ecological research, particularly in advancing our understanding of foraging theories and the behaviors of aerial insectivores.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This study tests whether Little Swifts exhibit optimal foraging, which the data seem to indicate is the case. This is unsurprising as most animals would be expected to optimize the energy income: expenditure ratio; however, it hasn't been explicitly quantified before the way it was in this manuscript.

      The major strength of this work is the sheer volume of tracking data and the accuracy of those data. The ATLAS tracking system really enhanced this study and allowed for pinpoint monitoring of the tracked birds. These data could be used to ask and answer many questions beyond just the one tested here.

      The major weakness of this work lies in the sampling of insect prey abundance at a single point on the landscape, 6.5 km from the colony. This sampling then requires the authors to work under the assumption that prey abundance is simultaneously even across the study region - an assumption that is certainly untrue. The authors recognize this problem and say that sampling in a spatially explicit way was beyond their scope, which I understand, but then at other times try to present this assumption as not being a problem, which it very much is.

      Further, it is uncertain whether other aspects of the prey data are problematic. For example, the radar only samples insects at 50 m or higher from the ground - how often do Little Swifts forage under 50 m high?

      Another example might be that the phrases "high abundance" and "low abundance" are often used in the manuscript, but never defined.

      It may be fair to say that prey populations might be correlated over space but are not equal. It is this unknown degree of spatial correlation that lends confidence to the findings in the Results. As such, the finding that Little Swifts forage optimally is indeed supported by the data, notwithstanding some of the shortcomings in the prey abundance data. The authors achieved their aims and the results support their conclusions.

      Thanks for this comment.

      The basic assumption of this paper is that the abundance of insects bioflow in the airspace is correlated in space and varies over time. This has been demonstrated by different studies, see for example Bell et al. (Bell, J. R., Aralimarad, P., Lim, K. S., & Chapman, J. W. (2013). Predicting insect migration density and speed in the daytime convective boundary layer. PloS one, 8(1), e54202) in which positive correlation in insect bioflow is demonstrated between different sites that are more than 100 km away in Southern England. Given the much closer proximity of the colony and the radar site, as well as the large foraging distance of the swifts that often forage in the vicinity of the radar and beyond it, it is reasonable to assume that the radar was able to successfully capture between-day variation in the abundance of flying insects in the airspace, which is highly relevant for the foraging swifts. This is likely because meteorological variables such as temperature and wind, which tend to vary over a synoptic-system scale of several hundred kilometers, significantly influence the abundance of aerial insects. Furthermore, the direction of insect flight that has been recorded by the radar points to an overall south-north directionality of the insects during the period of the study (Werber et al. Under Review: Werber, Y., Chapman, J. W., Reynolds, D. R. and Sapir, N. Active navigation and meteorological selectivity drive patterns of mass intercontinental insect migration through the Levant). Hence, it is reasonable to assume that since the colony is positioned approximately 6.5 km south of the radar site, the radar is able to reliable estimate the between-day variation in aerial insect abundance experienced by the foraging swifts. Importantly, this between-day variation is very high, and detailed information regarding this variation is provided in the paper.  We thank the reviewer for the comments on the wording and have corrected it accordingly so that it is explicitly stated that the spatial distribution of the flying insects is indeed not uniform, but is expected to be simultaneously affected by environmental variables creating spatially correlated bioflow of aerial insects.

      The term "high abundance" or "low abundance" is relative to the variable being examined but throughout the manuscript we did not use these terms to describe an absolute amount or a certain threshold but rather to describe the ecological circumstances experienced by the birds on different days that substantially varied in abundance of insect recorded by the radar. However, we have improved the wording of the text so that it is now clear that we refer to relative  and not to absolute values.

      At its centre, this work adds to our understanding of Little Swift foraging and extends to a greater understanding of aerial insectivores in general. While unsurprising that Little Swifts act as optimal foragers, it is good to have quantified this and show that the population declines observed in so many aerial insectivores are not necessarily a function of inflexible foraging habits. Further, the methods used in this research have great potential for other work. For example, the ATLAS system poses some real advantages and an exciting challenge to existing systems, like MOTUS. The radar that was used to quantify prey abundance also presents exciting possibilities if multiple units could be deployed to get a more spatially-explicit view.

      To improve the context of this work, it is worth noting that the authors suggest that this work is important because it has never been done before for an aerial insectivore; however, that justification is untrue as it has been assessed in several flycatcher and swallow species. A further justification is that this research is needed due to dramatic insect population declines, but the magnitude and extent of such declines are fiercely debated in the literature. Perhaps these justifications are unnecessary, and the work can more simply be couched as just a test of optimality theory.

      We appreciate the reviewer's helpful comment. A flycatcher is indeed an aerial insect eater, but its foraging strategy is very different from that of swifts. A comparison with the foraging strategy of the swallow is much more relevant. However, the methods used to quantify bird movement in the airspace in previous articles limited the ability to examine the optimal foraging theory in detail. Following the comment, we revised the text to better describe the uniqueness of our research. Further, since we studied insectivores, it is important to provide a broad context to potentially significant threats to the birds, albeit being debatable

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Bloch et al. investigate the relationships between aerial foragers (little swifts) tracked with an automated radio-telemetry system (Atlas) and their prey (flying insects) monitored with a small-scale vertical-looking radar device (BirdScan MR1). The aim of the study was to test whether little swifts optimise their foraging with the abundance of their prey. However, the results provided little evidence of optimal foraging behaviour.

      Strengths:

      This study addresses fundamental knowledge gaps on the prey-predator dynamics in the airspace. It describes the coincidence between the abundance of flying insects and features derived from tracking individual swifts.

      Weaknesses:

      The article uses hypotheses broadly derived from optimal foraging theory, but mixes the form of natural selection: parental energetics, parental survival (predation risks), nestling foraging, and breeding success.

      While this study explores additional behavioral theories alongside optimal foraging theory, its findings unequivocally support the latter. The highly statistically significant observed reduction in flight distance from the breeding colony in elation to increasing insect abundance (supporting predictions 1 and 2) coupled with an increased rate of colony visits (supporting prediction 5) demonstrate the Little Swifts' adeptness at optimizing their aerial foraging behavior. This behavior manifests in an enhanced frequency of visits to the breeding colony, underscoring their food provisioning maximization.

      Results are partly incoherent (e.g., "Thus, even when the birds foraged close to the colony under optimal conditions, the shorter traveling distance is not thought to not confer lower flight-related energetic expenditure because more return trips were made.", L285-287),

      Thanks for the comment. We have corrected this sentence.

      and confounding factors (e.g., brooding vs. nestling phase) are ignored.

      The breeding stage may indeed affect food provisioning properties but this factor is not confounded since insect abundance, and the consequent changes in bird foraging properties, fluctuated between sequential days while brooding and nestling phases take place over a period of several weeks, each. Further, despite the possible influence of breeding stages on bird behavior, variability in reproductive stages is expected among pairs in a breeding colony occupying dozens of pairs, despite some coordination in nesting initiation. Practically, the narrow and concealed nest openings hindered direct observation of the nests, posing challenges in determining the precise reproductive stage of each pair. Anyway, we added a short description of the dense colony structure to the Methods section.

      Some limits are clearly recognised by the authors (L329 and ff).

      See above the response about the distribution of insects in space.

      To illustrate potential confounding effects, the daily flight duration (Prediction 4) should decrease with prey abundance, but how far does the daily flight duration coincide with departure and arrival at sunrise and sunset (note that day length increases between March and May), respectively, and how much do parents vary in the duration of nest attendance during the day across chick ages?

      We added the following explanation to the Methods section:

      To standardize the effect of day length on daily foraging duration, we calculated and subtracted the day length from the total daily foraging time (Day duration - Daily foraging duration = Net foraging duration). The resulting data represent the daily foraging duration in relation to sunrise and sunset, independent of day length.

      To conclude, insufficient analyses are performed to rigorously assess whether little swifts optimize their foraging.

      We disagree. See our responses above.

      Filters applied on tracking data are necessary but may strongly influence derived features based on maximum or mean values. Providing sensitivity tests or using features less dependent on extreme values may provide more robust results.

      Thank you for highlighting the importance of considering the impact of data filtering on derived features. In our analysis, we employed rigorous filtering methods to emphasize central data tendencies while mitigating the influence of extreme values. These methods, validated through consultation with experts in tracking data analysis, follow established practices in the literature. Detailed descriptions of our filtering procedures can be found in the Methods section, with citations to relevant published studies.

      Radar insect monitoring is incomplete and strongly size-dependent. What is the favourite prey size of swifts? How does it match with BirdScan MR1 monitoring capability?

      We added an explanation to the Methods section to address this comment:

      The Radar Cross Section (RCS) quantifies the reflectivity of a target, serving as a proxy for size by representing the cross-sectional area of a sphere with identical reflectivity to water, whose diameter equals the target's body length. Recent findings indicate that the BirdScan MR1 radar can detect insects with an RCS as low as 3 mm², enabling the detection of insects with body lengths as small as 2 mm. These capabilities make the radar suitable for locating the primary prey of swifts, which typically range in size from 1 to 16 mm.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Lines 53-59 - major run-on sentence

      Thanks for the comment. Done.

      Line 133 - describe better. Attached where? Were feathers clipped or removed?

      Thanks for the comment. Done.

      Line 153 - shouldn't be a new paragraph

      Done.

      Line 157 - justify choosing four 

      To ensure a robust analysis of swifts' behavior relative to food abundance across multiple individuals simultaneously, we opted to exclude data from instances where only 3 tags were active. This decision was motivated by the fact that these instances accounted for only 2.9% of the data, and their exclusion minimally impacted overall data volume while enhancing data quality. In contrast, instances with 4 tags, comprising 16.2% of the data, provided substantial insights. Omitting these instances would have resulted in significant data loss. Thus, setting a threshold of 4 simultaneous tags represents a balance between maintaining adequate data quantity and ensuring high data quality for meaningful analysis.

      It took me a long time to determine whether the average and maximum flight distance was actual or Euclidean. It was only in the Results that I grasped it was actual. Define up front in the Methods.

      Thanks for the comment. Done.

      In my public review, I mention that optimal foraging has been assessed in other aerial insectivores. Here are some of the papers I was referring to:

      • Davies (1977) Prey selection and the search strategy of the spotted flycatcher (Muscicapa striata): A field study on optimal foraging. Animal Behaviour 25: 1016-1022.

      • Lifjeld & Slagsvold (1988) Effects of energy costs on the optimal diet: an experiment with pied flycatchers Ficedula hypoleuca feeding nestlings. Ornis Scandinavica 19: 111-118.

      • Quinney & Ankney (1985) Prey size selection by tree swallows. Auk 102: 245-250.

      • Turner (1982) Optimal foraging by the swallow (Hirundo rustica, L): Prey size selection. Animal Behaviour 30:862-872.

      Lastly, in terms of the work not being spatially-explicit, I do note that in lines 323-324 you acknowledge that prey populations can be patchy, then ten lines later, you provide citations to say that patchiness is not a problem because of spatial correlations. This is a bit overly dismissive, in my view, and to suggest (lines 336-337) that "patches of high insect concentration...might not exist at all" is certainly incorrect (and misleading). I do note the valiant attempt to address the spatial shortcoming in the remainder of the paragraph - although addressing it does not make the problem go away.

      Thanks for the comment.

      We revised the text to make it more coherent.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      L161: typo > missing space in 'meanof'

      Corrected.

      L192-193: Did the authors use the timing of sunrise and sunset to determine daytime?

      Yes. The daytime was calculated in relation to sunrise and sunset.

      Did the authors calculate the MTR from sunrise to sunset, or averaging the hourly MTR?

      If using hourly MTR, specify the criteria to assign an hourly MTR to daytime when sunset/sunrise is happening during that hour.

      A simplified terminology for "Average daily insect MTR" might be useful, in particular for the result section (insect MTR).

      Average daily insect MTR is calculated for a fixed period from 5 am to 8 pm local time. An explanation has been added to the Methods section, and the terminology in the text has been simplified as suggested

      Note that the 'M' of MTR stands for migration, which may not be appropriate in this context, and simply using "insect traffic rate" may be a better terminology.

      Thanks for the comment. The 'M' of MTR can also stand for movement, as the insects detected by the radar move in the airspace. This is how this term has been defined in the paper (e.g. in line 23 of the Summary section). Therefore, we did not change the terminology to “insect traffic rate”, which is a term not used in other studies.

      Considering the large number of predictions (10!), it would be appropriate to list them in the results (e.g., "on the daily average flight distance from the breeding colony (Prediction 3)").

      We added prediction numbers to the Results and the Discussion.

      Note that the terminology varies; e.g., in the introduction "overall daily flight distance" (L75), in the results "average length of the daily flight route" (L236), and further confusion with "daily average flight distance from the breeding colony" (L232).

      Thanks for the comment. fixed.

      The terminology - average daily 'air/flight' distance (L74-76) - needs clarification.

      Done.

      Results: Use only a relevant and consistent number of decimals to report on the effect size and p-values.

      Done.

      The authors are citing non-peer-reviewed publications:

      21. Bloch I, Troupin D, Sapir N. Movement and parental care characteristics during the nesting season of 468 the Little Swift (Apus affinis) [Poster presentation]. 12th European Ornithologists' Union Congress. Cluj Napoca, Romania. 2019.

      62. Zaugg S, Schmid B, Liechti F. Ensemble approach for automated classification of radar echoes into functional bird sub-types. In: Radar Aeroecology. 2017. p. 1. doi:10.13140/RG.2.2.23354.80326

      It is acceptable to cite non-peer-reviewed sources if they have a significant contribution to the background of the article without a critical impact on the core of the research.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In the first half of this study, Pham et al. investigate the regulation of TEAD via ubiquitination and PARylation, identifying an E3 ubiquitin ligase, RNF146, as a negative regulator of TEAD activity through an siRNA screen of ubiquitin-related genes in MCF7 cells. The study also finds that depletion of PARP1 reduced TEAD4 ubiquitination levels, suggesting a certain relationship between TEAD4 PARylation and ubiquitination which was also explored through an interesting D70A mutation. Pham et al. subsequently tested this regulation in D. melanogaster by introducing Hpo loss-of-function mutations and rescuing the overgrowth phenotype through RNF146 overexpression.

      In the second half of this study, Pham et al. designed and assayed several potential TEAD degraders with a heterobifunctional design, which they term TEAD-CIDE. Compounds D and E were found to effectively degrade pan-TEAD, an effect which could be disrupted by treatment with TEAD lipid pocket binders, proteasome inhibitors, or E1 inhibitors, demonstrating that the TEAD-CIDEs operate in a proteasome-dependent manner. These TEAD-CIDEs could reduce cell proliferation in OVCAR-8, a YAP-deficient cell line, but not SK-N-FI, a Hippo pathway independent cell line. Finally, this study also utilizes ATAC-seq on Compound D to identify reductions in chromatin accessibility at the regions enriched for TEAD DNA binding motifs.

      Strengths:

      The study provides compelling evidence that the E3 ubiquitin ligase RNF146 is a novel negative regulator of TEAD activity. The authors convincingly delineate the mechanism through multiple techniques and approaches. The authors also describe the development of heterobifunctional pan-degraders of TEAD, which could serve as valuable reagents to more deeply study TEAD biology.

      Weaknesses:

      The scope of this study is extremely broad. The first half of the paper highlights the mechanisms underlying TEAD degradation; however, the connection to the second half of the paper on small molecule degraders of TEAD is jarring, and it seems as though two separate stories were combined into this single massive study. In my opinion, the study would be stronger if it chose to focus on only one of these topics and instead went deeper.

      We thank the reviewer for the thoughtful feedback. In our mind, the two parts of the paper are inherently related as they both focus on proteasome-mediated degradation of TEADs. We first demonstrated that TEAD can be turned over by the ubiquitin proteasome system under endogenous conditions and identified a PARylation-dependent E3 ligase RNF146 as a major regulator of TEAD stability. Intriguingly, we observed that the four TEAD paralogs show different levels of polyubiquitination with some of them being highly stable in cells. These observations raised the question of whether the activity of the ubiquitin-proteasome system could be further enhanced pharmacologically to effectively target TEADs. We then tackled this question by providing a proof-of-concept demonstration of engineered heterobifunctional protein degraders can effectively degrade TEADs in cells and can be exploited as a therapeutic strategy for treating Hippo-dependent cancers.

      Additionally, the figure clarity needs to be substantially improved, as readability and interpretation were difficult in many panels. Lastly, there are numerous typos and poor grammar throughout the text that need to be addressed.

      We appreciate the suggestions from the reviewer and have updated the figures with high resolution images. We also corrected typos and grammatical errors in the text.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The paper is made of two parts. One deals with RNF146, the other with the development of compounds that may cause TEAD degradation. The two parts are rather unrelated to each other.

      The main limit of this work is the lack of evidence that TEAD factors are in fact regulated by the proteasome and ubiquitylation under endogenous conditions. Also lacking is the demonstration that TEADs are labile proteins to the extent that such quantitative regulation at the level of stability can impact on YAP-TAZ biology. Without these two elements, the relevance and physiological significance of all these data is lacking.

      As for the development of new inhibitors of TEAD, this is potentially very interesting but underdeveloped in this manuscript. Irrespectively, if TEAD is stable, these molecules are likely lead compounds of interest. If TEAD is unstable, as entertained in the first part of the paper, then these molecules are likely marginal.

      We thank the reviewer for evaluating our manuscript. As the reviewer pointed out, the paper aimed to address 1) whether TEAD is being regulated by the proteasome and ubiquitination under endogenous conditions, and 2) whether TEAD can be inhibited through pharmacologically-induced degradation. First, we demonstrated that TEAD is ubiquitinated in cells and mapped the lysine residues that are poly-ubiquitinated (Fig. 1). Next, we identified RNF146 as a major E3 ligase that ubiquitinates TEADs and reduces their stability. Third, we show that RNF146-mediated TEAD ubiquitination is functionally important: RNF146 suppresses TEAD activity, and RNF146 genetically interacts with Hippo pathway components in fruit flies. Furthermore, as we showed in Fig. S2H, RNF-146 does not affect TEAD1 and TEAD4 to the same extent. Across all four cell lines evaluated, TEAD1 is more stable than TEAD4, raising the question of whether more consistent degradation of different TEAD paralogues could be achieved. To this end, we demonstrated that while the TEAD family of proteins is labile under endogenous conditions, more complete degradation of the TEAD proteins could be achieved using a heterobifunctional CRBN degrader. We further characterized these TEAD degraders in a series of cellular and genomic assays to demonstrate their cellular activity, selectivity, and inhibitory effects against YAP/TAZ target genes. We believe these degrader compounds would be of great interest to the Hippo community. We have revised the main text to clarify these points.

      Here are a few other specific observations:

      (1) The effect of MG is shown in a convoluted way, by MS. What about endogenous TEAD protein stability?

      We thank the reviewer for the question. The MS experiment shown in Figure 1 is a standard KGG experiment, where we used MS to map ubiquitination sites on TEADs. The graphical representation of the process is included in Fig. 1C, and the details of the procedure are included in the Methods section. Fig. 1D shows the different KGG peptides detected with or without MG-132 treatment. Fig. 1E shows the quantified abundance of each of the peptides across the four conditions indicated at the bottom of the plot. Regarding endogenous TEAD stability, ​​we conducted cycloheximide chase experiments to assess the stability of endogenously expressed TEAD isoforms upon RNF146 knockdown (Fig. S2G and S2H). Using isoform-specific antibodies, we demonstrated that siRNF146 significantly stabilized TEAD4 in multiple cell lines, including H226, PATU-8902, Detroit-562, and OVCAR-8 (Fig. S2G, S2H, and S2I), supporting the notion that RNF146 is a negative regulator of TEAD stability. Notably, the effect of siRNF146 on TEAD1 stability was less pronounced, and TEAD1 is more stable than TEAD4 across all four cell lines. These results are consistent with the lower level of ubiquitination of TEAD1 (Fig. 1A) and are corroborated by various biochemical, molecular, and genetic characterizations (Fig. 3A-C and S3E).

      (2) The relevance of siRNF on YAP target genes of Fig.2D is not statistically significant.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have now removed the statistically significant claim.

      (3) All assays are with protein overexpression and Ub-laddering

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. To examine the ubiquitination level of TEAD proteins, we adopted an in vivo ubiquitination assay as described in our Materials and Methods section. To our knowledge, this assay is very standard in the ubiquitination field. Furthermore, as mentioned above, we have included in our revised manuscript cycloheximide chase experiments to assess the stability of endogenously expressed TEAD isoforms upon RNF146 knockdown (Fig. S2G and S2H). In addition to the overexpression system, we also assessed endogenously expressed TEAD using isoform-specific antibodies. We demonstrated that siRNF146 firmly stabilized TEAD4 in multiple cell lines, including H226, PATU-8902, Detroit-562, and OVCAR-8 (Fig. S2G with quantification and t-test), supporting the notion that RNF146 is a negative regulator of TEAD stability.

      (4) An inconsistency exists on the only biological validation (only by overexpression) on the fly eye size. RNF gain in Fig4C is doing the opposite of what is expected from what is portrayed here as a YAP/TEAD inhibitor: RNF gain is shown to INCREASE eye size, phenocopying a Hippo loss of function phenotype. According to the model proposed, RNF addition should reduce eye size. The authors stated that " This is in contrast to the anti-growth effect of RNF-146 in the Hpo loss-of-function background and indicates RNF146 may regulate other genes/pathways controlling eye sizes besides its role as a negative regulator of Sd/yki activity". This raises questions on what the authors are really studying: why, according to the authors, these caveats should occur on the controls, and not when they study Hpo mutants?

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We acknowledge the complexity of the fly phenotype compared to tumor growth. TEAD (Sd) isn’t the only substrate of RNF146 in the fly. For instance, RNF146 is known to positively regulate Wnt signaling by degrading Axin. Previous studies have shown that activation of the Wnt signaling pathway by removal of the negative regulator Axin from clones of cells results in an overgrowth phenotype (Legent and Treisman, 2008). The overgrowth phenotype that we observed with overexpressing RNF146 only, therefore, likely is due to the role of RNF146 in regulating other signaling pathways. Importantly, we showed that upon Hippo loss of function, overexpression of RNF146 can rescue the Hippo overgrowth phenotype (Fig 4B). This differential outcome of RNF146 expression in wildtype versus Hippo-deficient flies indicates that the genetic interactions between RNF146 and Hippo pathway components altered the phenotypic outcome, and the phenotype we get with RNF146 overexpression in a Hippo loss of function background is not simply due to additive effects of functional loss of either component alone.

      Complementary to these overexpression data, we showed that knockdown of RNF146 increased the eye size further (Fig. S4A, B) in Hippo loss of function background, further supporting the role of RNF146 as a negative regulator of the overall pro-growth signals induced by yki upon Hippo loss of function.

      (5) The role of TEAD inactivation on YAP function is already well known. Disappointingly, no prior literature is cited. In any case, this is a mere control.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We have cited several published reviews that touch upon this aspect of the TEAD-YAP function, including Calses et al., 2019; Dey et al., 2020; Halder and Johnson, 2011; Wang et al., 2018. We are open to your suggestions on additional citations.

      (6) The second part of the paper on the Development and Screening of pan-TEAD lipid pocket degraders is interesting but unconnected to the above. The degradation pathway it involves has nothing to do with the enzyme described in the first figures.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We acknowledge that our paper broadly covers two aspects. We believe that they are inherently connected as they both address ubiquitin/proteasome-mediated TEAD degradation and the functional consequences of TEAD degradation. Given the increasing interest in targeting TEAD/YAP/TAZ in cancers, we think the pharmacological approaches to enhance TEAD degradation using orthogonal E3 ligases provide an important toolbox to understand how this pathway can be regulated under both physiological and pathological conditions. While RNF146 appears to be a major E3 ligase responsible for TEAD turnover under physiological conditions, we showed that the four TEAD paralogs have different poly-ubiquitination levels (Fig. 1A), and are differentially labile in cells (Fig. S2G-I). These observations raised the question of whether the activity of the ubiquitination-proteasome system could be further enhanced to allow more complete removal of TEADs. To this end, we demonstrated that E3 ligases that do not regulate TEAD under endogenous conditions can be leveraged pharmacologically to achieve deep TEAD degradation, thus providing a proof of concept that TEADs can be targeted simultaneously using such approaches. Finally, in addition to establishing the basic biological concept linking RNF146 to TEAD degradation, the compounds we engineered will serve as valuable chemical tools for future studies of TEAD biology and the Hippo pathway in cancers and beyond.

      (7) The role of CIDE on YAP accessibility to Chromatin is superficially executed. Key controls are missing along with the connection with mechanisms and prior knowledge of TEAD, YAP, chromatin, and other TEAD inhibitors, just to mention a few.

      We used ATAC-seq to assess chromatin accessibility comparing cells treated with DMSO and two different concentrations of compound D. We acknowledge there are small molecule inhibitors of TEADs that can modulate accessibility of YAP binding sites. Potential mechanistic differences between TEAD degraders versus TEAD small molecule inhibitions will be a future area of investigation.

      (8) The physiological relevance and the mechanistic interpretation of what should be in the ATAC seq in ovcar cells is missing.

      We showed in Fig. 7A-D the dose response of OVCAR cells to the TEAD degraders. As evident from those experiments, TEAD degraders inhibit the proliferation of OVCAR cells as expected from their dependencies on the TEAD/YAP/TAZ transcription complex. In the ATAC-seq experiment, we showed that the canonical TEAD/YAP/TAZ target genes ANKRD1 and CCN1 have reduced chromatin accessibility at their promoter/enhancer regions (Fig. 8C). By unbiased motif and pathway analyses, we show that TEAD binding sites and YAP signatures are most significantly downregulated in OVCAR-8 cells (Fig. 8D-E). These results are incorporated into the results section of the manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary

      Pham, Pahuja, Hagenbeek, et al. have conducted a comprehensive range of assays to biochemically and genetically determine TEAD degradation through RNF146 ubiquitination. Additionally, they designed a PROTAC protein degrader system to regulate the Hippo pathway through TEAD degradation. Overall, the data appears robust. However, the manuscript lacks detailed methodological descriptions, which should be addressed and improved before publication. For instance, the methods used to analyze the K48 ubiquitination site on TEAD and the gene expression analysis of Hippo Signaling are unclear. Furthermore, the multiple proteomics, RNA-seq, and ATAC-seq data must be made publicly available upon publication to ensure reproducibility. Most of the main figures are of low resolution, which needs addressing.

      We thank the reviewer for evaluating our manuscript. All of the data will be uploaded to public databases. We apologize for the low figure resolution and have updated the figures in the revised manuscript. We also expanded the methods section with more details.

      Strengths:

      - A broad range of assays was used to robustly determine the role of RNF146 in TEAD degradation.

      - Development of novel PROTAC for degrading TEAD.

      Weaknesses:

      - An orthogonal approach is needed (e.g., PARP1 inhibitor) to demonstrate PARP1's dependency in TEAD ubiquitination.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We had attempted to assess the effect of PARP inhibitors (including veliparib and olaparib) on TEAD ubiquitination, but the data is relatively complex to interpret. Besides inhibiting PARP1/2 catalytic activities, these PARP inhibitors also trap PARP on chromatin. Hence, these inhibitors could induce other cellular changes in addition to inhibiting the catalytic activities of PARP1/2. Given these potential pitfalls, we decided not to include these inconclusive data. Even though the experiments with PARP inhibitors were inconclusive, our study supports that TEAD2 and TEAD4 are PARylated in cells using an anti-PAR antibody (Fig. 3B). Furthermore, we show that mutation of the D70 PARsylation site to alanine greatly abolished TEAD4 ubiquitination in cells, suggesting PARylation is important for TEAD4 ubiquitination. In addition, PARP1 depletion by siRNA and CRISPR guide RNA reduced TEAD2 and TEAD4 ubiquitination levels, indicating PARP1 is one of the PARPs responsible for TEAD PARylation in cells.

      - The data from Table 2 is unclear in illustrating the association of identified K48 ubiquitination with TEAD4, especially since the experiments were presumably to be conducted on whole cell lysates with KGG enrichment. This raises the possibility that the K48 ubiquitination could originate from other proteins. Alternatively, if the authors performed immunoprecipitation on TEAD followed by mass spectrometry, this should be explicitly described in the text and materials and methods section.

      We thank the reviewer for this question. The experiment was an IP-mass spectrometry study in a TEAD4 amplified cell line model (PATU-8902) after IP with a pan-TEAD antibody. Here, we observed K48 ubiquitin and other ubiquitin linkages as shown in the Supplementary Table S2 of the original submission. Although it is possible that the IP wash steps could be more stringent, we did enrich for TEAD protein prior to mass spectrometry. While the ubiquitin linkage signals may come mainly from TEAD protein (mainly TEAD4), we recognized that some signals may come from other proteins. Given the caveat, we have now removed the table from our paper and updated the text accordingly.

      - Figure 2D: The methodology for measuring the Hippo signature is unclear, as is the case for Figures 7E and F regarding the analysis of Hippo target genes.

      We apologize for the lack of clarification. In short, we previously developed the Hippo signature using machine learning and chemogenomics as described previously (Pham et al. Cancer Discovery 2021). In the revised version of the manuscript, we added the methodology for measuring the Hippo signature and cited our previous publication where we developed the Hippo signature.

      - Figure S3F requires quantification with additional replicates for validation.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We added the quantification for the blot and indicated the replication in the figure legend. Note that Figure S3F is now S3G.

      - There is a misleading claim in the discussion stating "TEAD PARylation by PAR-family members (Figure 3)"; however, the demonstration is only for PARP1, which should be corrected.

      We apologize for the statement. We observed both PARP1 and PARP9 in our TEAD IP-mass spec (now Figure S3E), which suggest both PARP-family members could be invovled. Nonetheless, we primarily focus on PARP1, which is widely expressed aross cell line models and present in higher abundance. Thus, our study only experimentally validated PARP1's role in regulating TEAD.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      General comments:

      (1) Please provide a smoother transition and well-defined connection between the first and second parts of the manuscript. The manuscript reads as two papers that were combined into one, without much attempt to disguise the fact.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We have added a transition paragraph to smoothen the transition. We acknowledge that our paper broadly covers two aspects. However, they both touch upon TEAD ubiquitination and degradation. In the first part of the manuscript, we described TEAD biology and showed that TEADs are post-translationally modified and subsequently regulated through PARylation-dependent RNF146-mediated ubiquitination. In the second part, we highlighted our abilities to leverage the PROTAC system for degrading such labile oncogenic proteins like TEADs. In addition to the biological concept, the compounds we engineered will serve as valuable chemical tools for future studies of TEAD biology and the Hippo pathway in cancers and beyond.

      (2) To confirm the proteasome mechanism of action, viability assays should be conducted with a CRBN KO.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. In Figure 6E, we measured TEAD protein levels under CRBN knockdown and observed an expected change in TEAD stability. This observation and the other data presented in Figure 6 suggest that TEAD proteins are targeted for proteasomal degradation under compound D treatment.

      (3) As a control, sgPARP1 or PARP1 inhibitors should be used to confirm TEAD PARylation reduction.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We had attempted to assess the effect of PARP inhibitors (including veliparib and olaparib) on TEAD ubiquitination, but the data is relatively complex to interpret. Besides inhibiting PARP1/2 catalytic activities, PARP inhibitors also trap PARP on chromatin. Hence, these inhibitors could induce other cellular changes in addition to inhibit the catalytic activities of PARP1/2. Given these pitfalls, we decided not to include these inconclusive data. Even though the experiments with PARP inhibitors were inconclusive, our study supports that TEAD2 and TEAD4 are PARylated in cells using an anti-PAR antibody (Fig. 3B). Furthermore, we show that mutation of the D70 PARsylation site to alanine greatly abolished TEAD4 ubiquitination in cells, suggesting PARylation is important for TEAD4 ubiquitination. In addition, PARP1 depletion by siRNA and CRISPR guide RNA reduced TEAD2 and TEAD4 ubiquitination levels, indicating PARP1 is one of the PARPs responsible for TEAD PARylation in cells.

      (4) MS data looks convincing but an FDR of 1% should be applied - this is the accepted standard in the proteomics field. Please research the data with the more stringent filter.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. Our IP-MS experiment comparing siNTC versus siYAP1/WWTR1 in Patu-8902 cells did not have replicates and FDR could not be derived. Therefore, we listed the raw data in Supplemental Table 3 without showing statistics. To validate the putative interactions identified by IP-MS, we performed IP-Western experiments to confirm that TEAD4 interacts with PARP1 (Figure 3A). It is important to note that in addition to our report, the interaction between PARP1 and TEADs has been observed in other publications (Calses et al., 2023; Yang et al., 2017). We have included more details of the IP-MS experiment reported in Supplemental Table 3 in the revised manuscript and cited previous work reporting TEAD-PARP1 interaction.

      (5) Proofread the manuscript more thoroughly for typos and grammatical errors.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this issue and have addressed it in the revision.

      (6) Improve figure clarity (e.g., clearly labeling graph axes).

      We apologize for the oversight. The revised manuscript contains high resolution figures.

      Specific points:

      Generally, the manuscript could use additional proofreading for grammar and clarity. It would not be practical to list all, but some representative examples are listed below:

      Run-on: "They act through an event-driven mechanism instead of conventional occupancy-driven pharmacology, in addition, target protein degradation removes all functions of the target protein and may also lead to destabilization of entire multidomain protein complexes."

      Typo: "Compound D exhibits significant inhibition of cell proliferation and downstream signaling compared to compound A, a reversible TEAD lipid pocket binder that lack the ubiquitin ligase binding moiety."

      Typo: "Thus, we sought to deplete TEAD proteins by directly target them for ubiquitination and proteasomal degradation via pharmacologically inducing interactions between TEAD and other abundantly expressed and PARylation-independent E3 ligases."

      Typo: "Compound A is a close in analog of Compound B as described previously (Holden et al., 2020)."

      We have revised the manuscript and corrected the typos and grammatical errors listed above and beyond.

      Specific comments on the figures are listed below:

      Figure 2:

      • Figures 2B and 2C should be separated into separate panels for clarity.

      We have updated the Figures 2B and 2C as suggested.

      • Figure 2C - "To further assess the function of RNF146, we depleted RNF146 by either sgRNA or siRNA." This should say either CRISPR-Cas9 KO or siRNA-mediated knockdown.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We revised the text to address this issue.

      • Figure 2D - y-axis is not labeled well/clearly. Additionally, there are different resolutions for the p-values on the graph (the top p-value is slightly clearer than the other two, suggesting either a different font was used or the value was pasted on top of a picture of the graph at a different resolution).

      We updated the figures according to the suggestions.

      • Figure S2A - "We identified three ubiquitin ligases - RNF146, TRAF3, and PH5A - as potential negative regulators for the Hippos pathway from the primary screen using the luciferase reporter." However, the siPHF5A data appears to decrease luciferase levels whereas siRNF146 and siTRAF3 increase it.

      We thank the reviewer for catching this error. We removed PH5A from this list.

      Figure 3:

      • Figure 3A - label more clearly. Is this an endogenous TEAD4 co-IP?

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. The experiment was an IP-mass spectrometry study in a TEAD4 amplified cell line model (PATU-8902) with pan-TEAD antibody. We have included the details to in the figure legends. Figure 3A is now Figure S3E in the revised manuscript.

      • Figure 3C - why are the dark and light exposures not matching/corresponding? In the dark exposure, there are two particularly dark bands, the darkest of which is at the top of the gel. However, this darkest band disappears in the light exposure gel. Additionally, the last lane is marked as +TEAD2 and +TEAD4. Not sure if this is a typo, and meant to be only +TEAD4? Seems a bit strange to have a double TEAD lane.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and apologize for the oversight. There was a typo in the label. The light exposure image was from a replicate run instead of the same run, therefore the lanes didn’t all match up. We have removed the light exposure panel to resolve the confusion. (Figure 3B).

      Figure 5:

      • Figure 5B - why is shTEAD1-4/Sucrose a much higher tumor volume than shNTC/Sucrose negative control? Additionally, should the legend say "sNTC/Sucrose" as it does or "shNTC/Sucrose"?

      The labels for shTEAD1-4/Sucrose and shNTC/Sucrose are correct. We do not understand why there is a slight increase in tumor volume for shTEAD1-4/Sucrose and suspect that is due to the considerable variation in the experiment. This slight change, however, doesn’t influence our observation of tumor regression in shTEAD1-4 under the Doxycycline treatment.

      "sNTC/Sucrose" is a typo. We apologize for the oversight and have revised the figure.

      • Figure 5E - cited in text after Figures 6 and 7.

      We have updated the text accordingly.

      Figure 6:

      • Figure 6B - it is very interesting how this clearly shows the Hook effect for Compound D, but it's a bit harder to see for compound E that the compound degrades pan-TEAD. Would it be possible to quantify the blots to reinforce claims about protein degradation here?

      We thank the reviewer for the question. There may seem to be some hook effect across the three concentrations of compound D treatment in Fig. 6B.  However, in Fig. 6C-E, we observed pretty consistent TEAD degradation levels across a variety of concentrations. In addition, these experiments have been repeated in multiple cell lines with consistent results. We respectfully argue that more detailed investigation of the hook effect is beyond the scope of our study.

      Figure 7:

      • Figure 7F - this heat map is extremely difficult to interpret. Are there any interesting clusters? What are the darker/lighter bands for Compound D compared to DMSO control?

      We thank the reviewer for the comment and apologize for the lack of information on the figure. These are genes from a Hippo signature derived from our earlier work (Pham et al. Cancer Discovery). As a result of degrading TEAD when treating the cells with Compound D, we observed an expected downregulation of most of these genes compared to compound A.

      Figure 8:

      • Figure 8B - these two pie charts are also difficult to interpret. Perhaps try to present the data in a form other than encircling pie charts?

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. However, this is a very descriptive pie chart, we used this format to save space.

      • Figure 8C - what is GNE-6915? Is this Compound D?

      Yes, this is compound D. The text is updated accordingly.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Figure 3A would benefit from explicitly stating the conditions within the figure, rather than referring to the legend. This clarity is also needed for Figure 8C, indicating whether the treatment was with compound D or GNE-6915.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We have added the details to the figures and made the suggested edits.

      Standardize the terms "ubiquitination" and "ubiquitylation" throughout the paper for consistency.

      We now use the term “ubiquitination” throughout the manuscript.

      The statement "In this study, we show that the activity of TEAD transcription factors can be post-transcriptionally regulated via the ubiquitin/proteasome system" should be corrected to "post-translationally regulated."

      We have update the manuscript accordingly.

      There is an additional exclamation mark above Figure 5E that should be removed.

      We have revised Figure 5E.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      This manuscript explores the multiple cell types present in the wall of murine-collecting lymphatic vessels with the goal of identifying cells that initiate the autonomous action potentials and contractions needed to drive lymphatic pumping. Through the use of genetic models to delete individual genes or detect cytosolic calcium in specific cell types, the authors convincingly determine that lymphatic muscle cells are the origin of the action potential that triggers lymphatic contraction. 

      Strengths: 

      The experiments are rigorously performed, the data justify the conclusions, and the limitations of the study are appropriately discussed. 

      There is a need to identify therapeutic targets to improve lymphatic contraction and this work helps identify lymphatic muscle cells as potential cellular targets for intervention. 

      Weaknesses: 

      My only major comment would be that the manuscript provides a lot of rich information describing the cellular components of the muscular lymphatic vessel wall and that these data are not well represented by the title. The title (while currently accurate) could be tweaked to better represent all that is in this manuscript. Maybe something like

      "Characterization/Interrogation of the cellular components of murine collecting lymphatic vessels reveals that lymphatic muscle cells are the innate pacemaker cells regulating lymphatic contractions" or "Discovery/Confirmation of lymphatic muscle cells as innate pacemaker cells of lymphatic contraction through characterization of the cellular components of murine collecting lymphatic vessels". Potentially a cartoon summary figure of the components that make up the collecting lymphatic vessel wall could also be included. In my opinion, these changes will make this manuscript of more interest to a broader group of scientists. I have a few additional comments for consideration to improve the clarity and enhance the discussion of this work. 

      We agree with the reviewer that our original manuscript, and our resubmission even more so with the addition of the scRNAseq data, provides a significant amount of information regarding the composition of the lymphatic collecting vessel wall. We have changed our title to match one suggestion of the reviewer: “Characterization of the cellular components of murine collecting lymphatic vessels reveals that lymphatic muscle cells are the innate pacemaker cells regulating lymphatic contractions".

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      This is a well-written manuscript describing studies directed at identifying the cell type responsible for pacemaking in murine-collecting lymphatics. Using state-of-the-art approaches, the authors identified a number of different cell types in the wall of these lymphatics and then using targeted expression of Channel Rhodopsin and GCaMP, the authors convincingly demonstrate that only activation of lymphatic muscle cells produces coordinated lymphatic contraction and that only lymphatic muscle cells display pressure-dependent Ca2+ transients as would be expected of a pacemaker in these lymphatics. 

      Strengths: 

      The use of a targeted expression of channel rhodopsin and GCaMP to test the hypothesis that lymphatic muscle cells serve as the pacemakers in musing lymphatic collecting vessels. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The only significant weakness was the lack of quantitative analysis of most of the imaging data shown in Figures 1-11. In particular, the colonization analysis should be extended to show cells not expected to demonstrate colocalization as a negative control for the colocalization analysis that the authors present. 

      We understand the reviewer’s concern regarding the lack of a control for the colocalization analysis and that the colocalization analysis was limited to just one set of cell markers. We have now provided a colocalization analysis of Myh11 and PDGFRα, to serve as a co-localization negative control based on our RT-PCR and scRNASeq findings, which is incorporated into the current Supplemental figure 1. In regard to the staining pattern of other various marker combinations, the results were often quite clear with the representative images that two separate cell populations were being stained such as the case with labeling endothelial cells with CD31, macrophage labeling with the MacGreen mice, or hematopoietic cells with CD45. 

      During our lengthy rebuttal process we completed a single cell RNA sequence analysis using our isolated and cleaned mouse inguinal axillary lymphatic collecting vessels to aid in our characterization of the vessel wall and to more thoroughly answer these questions regarding colocalization in arguably a robust manner. The generation of our scRNAseq dataset, derived from isolated and cleaned mouse inguinal axillary collecting vessels from 10 mice, 5 male and 5 females, allowed us to profile over 2200 of the adventitial fibroblast like cells (AdvCs) we had identified in our original submission. Using this dataset, we were able to confirm co-expression of Cd34 and Pdgfrα in AdvCs and assess the co-expression of other genes of interest from our RT-PCR experiments and immunofluorescence experiments. This approach will also allow other lymphatic investigators to assess their genes of interest as our dataset is uploaded to the NIH Gene Omnibus and will be uploaded to the Broad Institute Single Cell Portal upon publication.

      Here we show that the vast majority of non-muscle fibroblast like cells referred to as AdvCs were double positive for both CD34 and PDGFRα. We also show that the AdvCs that express commonly used pericyte markers Pdgfrb and Cspg4 also co-expressed Pdgfrα. Critically, this data also shows that the AdvCs that express genes linked with lymphatic contractile dysfunction (Ano1, Gjc1 or connexin 45, and Cacna1c “Cav1.2”) co-express Pdgfrα and would render these genes susceptible to Cre-mediated recombination using our Pdgfrα-CreER<sup>TM</sup> model.  

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      Zawieja et al. aimed to identify the pacemaker cells in the lymphatic collecting vessels. Authors have used various Cre-based expression systems and optogenetic tools to identify these cells. Their findings suggest these cells are lymphatic muscle cells that drive the pacemaker activity in the lymphatic collecting vessels. 

      Strengths: 

      The authors have used multiple approaches to test their hypothesis. Some findings are presented as qualitative images, while some quantitative measurements are provided.   

      Weaknesses: 

      -  More quantitative measurements. 

      -  Possible mechanisms associated with the pacemaker activity. 

      -  Membrane potential measurements. 

      We thank the reviewers for their concerns and have addressed them in the following manner. 

      - We added novel single cell RNA sequencing of isolated and cleaned inguinal axillary vessels from 10 mice (5 males and 5 females). This allowed us to quantify the number of AdvCs that coexpress CD34 and Pdgfrα as well as the number of cells co-expressing Pdgfrα and other markers.

      - We have added a negative control with quantification for the co-localization analysis assessing Myh11 and Pdgfrα. We have added a negative control with quantification for the ChR2-photo stimulated contraction experiments using Myh11CreERT2-ChR2 mice that were not injected with tamoxifen. 

      - We also used Biocytin-AF488 in our intracellular Vm electrodes to map the specific cells in which we recorded action potentials and in neighboring cells since Biocytin-AF488 is under 1KDa and can pass through gap junctions. This approach independently labeled lymphatic muscle cells and their direct neighbors for 3 IALVs from 3 separate mice. 

      - We performed membrane potential recordings in isolated, pressurized (under isobaric conditions), and spontaneously contracting inguinal axillary lymphatic collecting vessels at different pressures. 

      - We also show that the pressure-frequency relationship is dependent on the slope of the diastolic depolarization as no other parameter was significantly altered in our study and the diastolic depolarization slope was highly correlated with contraction frequency. 

      We believe the addition of these novel data, controls, experiments, and quantifications have improved the manuscript in line with the reviewers’ suggestions.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Lines 149-162: The authors rule out the methylene blue staining cells in the cLV wall as pacemakers because they don't form continuous longitudinal connections to drive propagation. Is it possible for a pacemaker cell to only initiate the contraction and then have the LMCs make the axial electrical connections to propagate the electrical wave? I am not trying to suggest the methylene blue cells are pacemakers, but I am not sure the lack of longitudinal (or radial) connectivity is sufficient evidence to rule out the possibility. This comment also is relevant to the 3 criteria for a pacemaker cell listed in the Discussion (Lines 413-417). 

      We agree with the reviewer’s broader point that a pacemaker cell may not require direct contact with other ‘pacemaker’ cells within the tissue as long as they are still within the same electrical syncytium. However, we do expect a continuous presence of a pacemaker cell type throughout the vessel wall length to account for the persistence of spontaneous contractile behavior despite vessel length, and the ability for contraction initiation to shift (Akl et al 2011, Castorena et al 2018 and Castorena et al 2022) and the occurrence of spontaneous action potentials. In Dirk van Helden’s seminal work in 1993 on lymphatic pacemaking, a major finding was that “SM of small lymphangions or that of short segments, cut from lymphangions of any length, behaved similarly”. We have adjusted our phrase regarding the requirement of a contiguous network and instead suggest a continuous presence along the vessel network and integrated into the electrical syncytium. 

      Methylene blue is an alkaline stain that will stain acidic structures and historically methylene blue is noted to stain Interstitial cells of Cajal in the gastrointestinal tract which typically exist as network of cells(Huizinga et al 1993 and Berezin 1988). No such network was readily apparent in our methylene blue staining nor did the stained cells have a similar morphology to the ICCs of the gastrointestinal tract. Further, methylene blue is staining is not limited to ICCs or pacemaker cells at large as it has been used to kill cancer cells. Within the small intestine methylene blue was noted to also stain macrophage like cells (Mikkelsen et al 1988), and we too draw parallels between the macrophage morphology observed with Macgreen mice and methylene-blue stained cells. The specific structure for the ICC affinity for methylene blue is not well described and while the innate cytotoxicity of methylene blue and light has been used to kill ICCs and impair slow wave generation, the lack of specificity of this method leaves much to be desired. What is clear is that the ICC network highlighted by methylene blue in the gut is absent in lymphatic collecting vessels.

      In Figure 15/Video12, is it possible that the cells that are showing intracellular Ca2+ in diastole are the cells that reach a threshold membrane potential that then trigger the rest of the LMCs? As the authors have shown heterogeneity in the LMCs surface markers, is it possible that the cells with Ca2+ activity during diastole are identifiable by a distinct molecular phenotype? Or is the thought that these cells are randomly active in diastole? Some discussion/speculation about this seems appropriate. 

      We are in agreement with the reviewer’s conclusion that there is heterogeneity in the LMCs as it pertains to the calcium oscillations in diastole, either under normal buffer conditions or when L-type channels are inhibited with nifedipine. We also note significant heterogeneity in the gene expression noted within the four LMC subclusters (0-3), though we did not see significant differences in either in Ip3R1 or Ano1 expression. However, subcluster “0” had increased expression of Itprid2, also known as KRas-induced actin-interacting protein (KRAP) which is thought to tether, and thus immobilize, IP3 receptors to the actin cortex beneath the cell membrane. KRAP has been recently proposed to be a critical player in IP3 receptor “licensing” which allows IP3 receptors to release calcium (Vorontsova et al., 2022).  However, whether similar requirement of IP3R licensing is necessitated in all cells or specifically in LMCs is unknown it is quite clear there are specific release sites within the cell and this topic is currently under further investigation for a separate manuscript. We would like to note that there is yet to be a clear consensus on whether IP3R licensing is required as much of these studies are performed in cultured cells and this mechanism has only recently been described. 

      Healthy lymphatic collecting vessels typically have a single pacemaker driving a coordinated propagated contraction in ex vivo isobaric myograph studies (Castorena-Gonzalez et al., 2018), which is typically at either end of the cannulated vessel. We believe that this is due to the lack of a bordering cell in one direction and allows charge to accumulate and voltage to reach threshold at these sites preferentially. We have tried to image calcium at the pacemaking pole of the vessel to observe the specific Ca<sup>2+</sup> transients at these sites though invariably the act of imaging GCaMP6f results in the pacemaker activity initiating from the other pole of the vessel. It is our opinion that the fact that LMCs are heterogenous in their Ca<sup>2+</sup> transients is a feature to the system as it permits a wider range of depolarization signals, and thus allows finer control of the pacing as different physical/pressure or signaling stimuli is encountered. Likely, the cells with the higher propensity of Ca<sup>2+</sup> transients act as the contraction initiation site in vivo, though it must also be noted that the LMC density decreases around lymphatic valve sites. In fact, in guinea pig collecting vessels there are very few LMCs at the valves which can render them electrically uncoupled or poorly coupled (Van Helden, 1993). Thus, valve sites in which there is greater electrical resistance due to lower LMC-LMC coupling may allow for charge accumulation in the LMCs at the valve site, similar to the artificial condition achieved in our myograph preparations with two cut ends, and allow them to reach threshold first and drive coordination at the valve sties.

      An additional description of what the PTCL analysis is meant to represent physiologically would be helpful for readers. 

      We have better described the conversion of the calcium signals into “particles” for analysis at first mention in the methods and results section and have included the requisite reference to this specific methodology in Line 429-30. 

      A description of how DMAX is experimentally determined is needed. 

      We have adjusted our methods section to describe DMAX in line 774-775.

      “with Ca<sup>2+</sup>-free Krebs buffer (3mM EGTA) and diameter at each pressure recorded under passive conditions (DMAX).”

      I think the vessels referred to as popliteal lymphatic vessels are actually saphenous lymphatic vessels (afferent to the popliteal lymph node). Please clarify. 

      Indeed, some of the vessels used in this study are the afferents to the single popliteal node. They travel with the caudal branch of the saphenous vein, but have routinely been described as popliteal vessels, as opposed to saphenous lymphatic vessels, by the lymphatic field at large (Tilney 1971 PMCID: PMC1270981, Liao 2015 PMID: 25512945). To move away from this nomenclature would likely add to confusion although we agree that the lymphatic field may need to improve or correct the vessel naming paradigm to match the vascular pairs they follow.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Lines 214-215 - can you cite a reference for the observation that rhythmic contractions don't require the presence of valves? 

      We have added the reference. In Dr. Van Helden’s seminal work on the topic in 1993, “Vessel segments were then cut from selected small lymphangions (length 300-500 um) by cutting at the valves.” Additionally, work by Dr Anatoliy Gashev utilized sections of lymphatic vessels that lacked valves to study orthograde and retrograde shear sensitivity (Gashev et al., 2002).

      Lines 224-230 - It would have been nice to see colocalization analysis for all cell types so that "negative" results could be compared with the "positives" that you report. This would help bolster evidence of your ability to separate cell types. 

      We understand the reviewer’s sentiment and agree. We have now added a “negative control” colocalization staining and analysis for PDGFR and Myh11 which has been added to the current SuppFigure 1. We stained 3 IALVs from 3 separate mice with PDGFRα and Myh11 and performed confocal microscopy. We ran the FIJI BIOP-JACOP colocalization plugin as before and observed very little colocalization of the two signals. Additionally, we have also added a coexpression assessment for CD34 and PDGFRα and other genes using our scRNAseq dataset.  

      line 293 - Should read "Cx45 in..." 

      This has been corrected. 

      “The expression of the genes critically involved in cLV function—Cav1.2, Ano1, and Cx45—in the PdgfrαCreER<sup>TM</sup>-ROSA26mTmG purified cells and scRNAseq data prompted us to generate PdgfrαCreER<sup>TM</sup>-Ano1<sup>fl/fl</sup>, PdgfrαCreER<sup>TM</sup>-Cx45<sup>fl/fl</sup>, and PdgfrαCreER<sup>TM</sup>-Cav1.2<sup>fl/fl</sup> mice for contractile tests.”

      lines 470-473 - A reference for this statement should be cited. 

      We have added the reference. In Dr. Van Helden’s seminal work on the topic in 1993, “Vessel segments were then cut from selected small lymphangions (length 300-500 um) by cutting at the valves.” Additionally, work by Dr Anatoliy Gashev utilized sections of lymphatic vessels that lacked valves to study orthograde and retrograde shear sensitivity (Gashev et al., 2002).

      Lines 483-487 - References should be cited for these statements. 

      We have narrowed and clarified this statement and supported it with the necessary citations. 

      “Of course, mesenchymal stromal cells (Andrzejewska et al., 2019) and fibroblasts (Muhl et al., 2020; Buechler et al., 2021; Forte et al., 2022) are present, and it remains controversial to what extent telocytes are distinct from or are components/subtypes of either cell type (Clayton et al., 2022). Telocytes are not monolithic in their expression patterns, displaying both organ directed transcriptional patterns as well as intra-organ heterogeneity (Lendahl et al., 2022) as readily demonstrated by recent single cell RNA sequencing studies that provided immense detail about the subtypes and activation spectrum within these cells and their plasticity (Luo et al., 2022).”

      Lines 584-585 - Missing a reference citation. 

      Thank you for catching this error, the correct citation was for Boedtkjer et al 2013 and is now properly cited. 

      Line 638 - "these this" should read "this" 

      Thank you for catching this error. This particular sentence was removed in light of the addition of the scRNAseq data.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      This manuscript from Zawieja et al. explored an interesting hypothesis about the pacemaker cells in lymphatic collecting vessels. Many aspects of lymphatic collecting vessels are still under investigation; hence this work provides timely knowledge about the lymphatic muscle cells as a pacemaker. Although it is an important topic of the investigation, the data provided do not support the overall goal of the manuscript. Many figures (Figure 1-5) provide quantitative estimation and the description provided in the results section might only be useful for a restricted audience, but not to the broader audience. Some of the figures are very condensed with multiple imaging panels and it is hard to follow the differences in qualitative analysis. Overall, this manuscript can be improved by more streamlined description/writing and figure arrangements (some of the figures/panels can be moved to the supplementary figures). 

      We disagree with the notion that the original data provided did not support the goal of the manuscript- to identify and test putative pacemaker cell types. Nonetheless we believe we have also added ample novel data to the manuscript, including membrane potential recordings and scRNAseq to highlight and to add further support to our conclusion that the pacemaker cell is an LMC. We believe the scRNAseq data will also greatly enhance the appeal of the manuscript to a broader audience and have renamed the manuscript in line with the wealth of data we have collected on the components of the vessel wall as we tested for putative pacemaker cells.

      As requested, we have moved many figures to the supplement to allow readers to focus more on the more critical experiments.

      A few other points that need to be addressed: 

      (1) Authors used immunofluorescence-based differences in various cell types in the collecting vessels. Initially, they chose ICLC, pericytes, and lymphatic muscle cells. But then they started following adventitial cells and endothelial cells. It is not clear from the description, why these other cells could be possibly involved in the pacemaker activity. It will be easier to follow if authors provide a graphical abstract or summary figure about their hypothesis and what is known from their and others' work. 

      We would like to clarify that we used the endothelial cells as controls to ensure what we observed via immunofluorescence and FACs RT-PCR were a separate cell type from either lymphatic muscle or lymphatic endothelial cells on the vessel wall. Staining for the endothelium also allowed us to assess where these PDGFRα+CD34+ cells reside in the vessel wall.  We started with a wide range of markers that are conventionally used for targeting specific cell types, but as expected those markers are not always 100% specific. Specifically, we focused on CD34, Kit, and Vimentin as those were the markers for the non-muscle cells observed in the lymphatic collecting vessel wall previously. What we found was that CD34 and PDGFRα labeled the same cell type. As there was not a CD34Cre mouse available at the time we instead utilized the inducible PDGFRαCreERTM. We are unsure how well an abstract figure will condense the conclusions from the experiments listed here but if absolutely required for publication we can attempt to highlight the representative cell populations identified on the vessel wall.

      (2) Authors used many acronyms in the manuscript without defining them (when they appeared for the first time). Please follow the convention. 

      We have checked the manuscript and made several corrections regarding the use of abbreviations.

      (3) How specific PDGFR-alpha as a marker of the pericytes? It can also label the mesenchymal cells. Why did the author choose PDGFR-alpha over beta for their Cre-based expression approach? 

      We tried to assess if there were a pericyte like cell present in or along the wall using PDGFRbeta (Pdgfrβ). Pdgfrβ is commonly used to identify pericytes (Winkler et al., 2010), while in contrast Pdgfrα is a known fibroblast marker (Lendahl et al., 2022). Pdgfrβ CreERT2 resulted in recombination in both LMCs and AdvCs, preventing it from being a discriminating marker for our study where as Myh11CreER<sup>T2</sup> and PDGFRαCreER<sup>TM</sup> were specific at least to cell type based on our FACSs-RT-PCR and staining. As you can tell from the scRNAseq data in Figure 5, there was no cell cluster that Pdgfrβ was specific for in contrast to PDGFRα and Myh11.  In Figure 6 we show the expression of another commonly used pericyte marker NG2 (Cspg4) in our scRNAseq dataset which was observed in both LMCs and AdvCs as well. Lastly, MCAM (Figure 6) can also be a marker for pericytes though we see only expression in the LMCs and LECs for this marker. Notably, almost all of the AdvCs express PDGFRα rendering the PDGFRαCreER<sup>TM</sup> a powerful tool to study this population of cells on the vessel wall including those that were PDGFRα+Cspg4+ or PDGFRα+ Pdgfrβ+.

      We were reliant on PDGFRαCreER<sup>TM</sup> as that was the only available PDGFRα Cre model at the time. Note we used PdgfrβCreER<sup>T2</sup> and Ng2Cre in our study but found that both Cre models recombined both LMCs and AdvCs.

      (4) Please include appropriate references for all the labeling markers (PDGFR-alpha, beta, and myc11 etc.) that are used in this manuscript. 

      We have added multiple references to the manuscript to support the use of these common cell “specific” markers as of course each marker is limited in some capacity to fully or specifically label a single population of cells (Muhl et al., 2020).

      (5) One of the criteria for the pacemaker cells is depolarization-induced propagated contractions. Authors have used optogenetics-induced depolarization to test this phenomenon. Please include negative controls for these experiments. 

      We have now added negative controls to this experiment which were non-induced (no tamoxifen) Myh11CreER<sup>T2</sup>-Chr2 popliteal vessels. This data has been added to the Figure 8.  

      (6) What are the resting membrane potentials of Lymphatic muscle cells? The authors should provide some details about this in the manuscript. 

      We agree with the reviewer and have added membrane potential recordings (Figure 13) at different pressures and filled our recording electrode with the cell labeling molecule BiocytinAF488 to highlight the action potential exhibiting cells, which were the LMCs. Lymphatic resting membrane potential is dynamic in pressurized vessels, which appears to be a critical difference in this approach as compared to pinned out vessels or those on wire myographs likely due to improper stretch or damage to the vessel wall. In mesenteric lymphatic vessels isolated from rats the minimum membrane potential achieved during repolarization ranges from -45 to 50mV typically while IALVs from mice are typically around -40mV, though IALVs have a notably higher contraction frequency. Critically, we have also added novel membrane potential recordings to this manuscript in IALVs at different pressures and show that the diastolic depolarization rate is the critical factor driving the pressure-dependent frequency.

      (7) In the discussion, the authors discussed SR Ca2+ cycling in Pacemaking, but the relevant data are not included in this manuscript, but a manuscript from JGP (in revision) is cross-referenced. 

      As discussed above, we have recently published our work where studied IALVs from Myh11CreERT2-Ip3R1fl/fl (Ip3r1ismKO) and Myh1CreERT2-Ip3r1fl/fl-Ip3r2fl/fl-Ip3r3fl/fl mice (Zawieja et al., 2023). Deletion of Ip3r1 from LMCs recapitulated the dramatic reduction in frequency we previously published in Myh11CreERT2-Ano1fl/fl mice and the loss of pressure dependent chronotropy. Furthermore, in this manuscript we also showed that the diastolic calcium transients are nearly completely lost in ILAVs from Myh11CreERT2-Ip3R1fl/fl knockout mice. There was no difference in the contractile function between IALVs from single Ip3r1 knockout and the triple Ip3r1-3 knockout mice suggesting that it is Ip3r1 that is required for the diastolic calcium oscillations. Further, in the presence of 1uM nifedipine there were still no calcium oscillations in the Myh11CreERT2-Ip3r1fl/fl LMCs. These findings provide further support for our interpretation that the pacemaking is of myogenic origin.

      Andrzejewska, A., B. Lukomska, and M. Janowski. 2019. Concise Review: Mesenchymal Stem Cells: From Roots to Boost. Stem Cells. 37:855-864.

      Buechler, M.B., R.N. Pradhan, A.T. Krishnamurty, C. Cox, A.K. Calviello, A.W. Wang, Y.A. Yang, L.

      Tam, R. Caothien, M. Roose-Girma, Z. Modrusan, J.R. Arron, R. Bourgon, S. Muller, and S.J. Turley. 2021. Cross-tissue organization of the fibroblast lineage. Nature. 593:575579.

      Castorena-Gonzalez, J.A., S.D. Zawieja, M. Li, R.S. Srinivasan, A.M. Simon, C. de Wit, R. de la Torre, L.A. Martinez-Lemus, G.W. Hennig, and M.J. Davis. 2018. Mechanisms of Connexin-Related Lymphedema. Circ Res. 123:964-985.

      Clayton, D.R., W.G. Ruiz, M.G. Dalghi, N. Montalbetti, M.D. Carattino, and G. Apodaca. 2022. Studies of ultrastructure, gene expression, and marker analysis reveal that mouse bladder PDGFRA(+) interstitial cells are fibroblasts. Am J Physiol Renal Physiol. 323:F299F321.

      Forte, E., M. Ramialison, H.T. Nim, M. Mara, J.Y. Li, R. Cohn, S.L. Daigle, S. Boyd, E.G. Stanley, A.G. Elefanty, J.T. Hinson, M.W. Costa, N.A. Rosenthal, and M.B. Furtado. 2022. Adult mouse fibroblasts retain organ-specific transcriptomic identity. Elife. 11.

      Gashev, A.A., M.J. Davis, and D.C. Zawieja. 2002. Inhibition of the active lymph pump by flow in rat mesenteric lymphatics and thoracic duct. J Physiol. 540:1023-1037.

      Lendahl, U., L. Muhl, and C. Betsholtz. 2022. Identification, discrimination and heterogeneity of fibroblasts. Nat Commun. 13:3409.

      Luo, H., X. Xia, L.B. Huang, H. An, M. Cao, G.D. Kim, H.N. Chen, W.H. Zhang, Y. Shu, X. Kong, Z.

      Ren, P.H. Li, Y. Liu, H. Tang, R. Sun, C. Li, B. Bai, W. Jia, Y. Liu, W. Zhang, L. Yang, Y. Peng, L. Dai, H. Hu, Y. Jiang, Y. Hu, J. Zhu, H. Jiang, Z. Li, C. Caulin, J. Park, and H. Xu. 2022. Pancancer single-cell analysis reveals the heterogeneity and plasticity of cancer-associated fibroblasts in the tumor microenvironment. Nat Commun. 13:6619.

      Muhl, L., G. Genove, S. Leptidis, J. Liu, L. He, G. Mocci, Y. Sun, S. Gustafsson, B. Buyandelger, I.V.

      Chivukula, A. Segerstolpe, E. Raschperger, E.M. Hansson, J.L.M. Bjorkegren, X.R. Peng, M. Vanlandewijck, U. Lendahl, and C. Betsholtz. 2020. Single-cell analysis uncovers fibroblast heterogeneity and criteria for fibroblast and mural cell identification and discrimination. Nat Commun. 11:3953.

      Van Helden, D.F. 1993. Pacemaker potentials in lymphatic smooth muscle of the guinea-pig mesentery. J Physiol. 471:465-479.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This study presents valuable observations of white matter organisation from diffusion MRI and two types of synchrotron imaging in both monkeys and mice. Cross-modality comparisons are interesting as the different methods are able to probe anatomical structures at different length scales, from single axons in high-resolution synchrotron (ESRF) imaging, to clusters of axons in lower-resolution synchrotron (DEXY) data, to axon populations at the mm-scale in diffusion MRI. By acquiring all modalities in monkey and mouse ex vivo samples, the authors can observe principles of fibre organisation, and characterise how fibre characteristics, such as tortuosity and micro-dispersion, vary across select brain regions and in healthy tissue versus a demyelination model. The results are solid, though some statements (in the abstract/discussion) do not appear to be fully supported, and statistical tests would help confirm whether tissue characteristics are similar/different between different conditions.

      R1.1: Thank you for the kind feedback. We have included statistical tests in the paper for tissue characteristics where appropriate.

      Due to the very high number of sample points (one per voxel) within the 3D synchrotron volumes, testing for statistical significance is challenging for the structure tensor-based tissue fractional anisotropy (FA) metric. This causes any standard statistical test to have sufficient power to evaluate even minute differences between the volumes as statistically significant with high confidence. In other words, the null hypothesis (H0) will always be rejected with p = 0, regardless of the practical significance of the difference. Therefore, we have not added statistical analysis for FA results.

      For the tractography based metrics, the number of sample points (one per streamline) is not as high as that for the structure tensor FA, thus making it more reasonable to test for statistical significance. The statistical analyses performed included tests for equality of distributions (Two-sample Kolmogorov-Smirnov tests), equality of medians (Two-sided Wilcoxon rank sum tests), and equality of variance (Brown-Forsythe tests). The results are described in relation to Figure 5(B, D), Figure 8(CF), and detailed in the Methods section.

      One very interesting result is the observation of apparent laminar organisation of fibres in ex vivo monkey white matter samples. DESY data from the corpus callosum shows fibres with two dominant orientations (one L-R, one slightly inclined), clustered in laminar structures within this major fibre bundle. Thanks to the authors providing open data, I was able to look through the raw DESY volume and observe regions with different "textures" (different orientations) in the described laminar arrangement. That this organisation can be observed by eye, as well as by structure tensor, is fairly convincing. As not all readers will download the data themselves, the manuscript could benefit from additional figures/videos to demonstrate (1) the quality of the DESY data and (2) a more 3D visualisation of the laminar structures (where the coronal plane shows convincing columnar structure or stripes). Similarly in Figure 5A, though this nicely depicts two populations with different orientations, it is somewhat difficult to see the laminar structure in the current image.

      ESRF data of the centrum semiovale (CS) contributes evidence for similar laminar structures in a crossing fibre region, where primarily AP fibres are shown to cluster in 3 laminar structures. As above, further visualisations of the ESRF volume in the CS (as shown in Figure 4E) would be of value (e.g. showing consistency across the 4 volumes, 2D images showing stripey/columnar patterns along different axes, etc).

      R1.2: Conveying complex 3D geometry through 2D still images is indeed challenging, and we greatly appreciate the reviewer’s comments and suggestions. To better communicate the understanding of the 3D anatomical environments, we have taken the following actions:

      (1) To enhance insights into the tractography results in Figures 5A and 5D, we have rendered and added animations of the tractography scenes as supplemental material.

      (2) To visually support 3D insights concerning the consistency of the laminar organisation of the callosal fibres, we have replaced the 2D slice views in Figures 3A and 3B with 3D renderings similar to the one in Figure 4E.

      (3) An animation of Figure 4E was created to display the colour-coded structure tensor directions of all four stacked scans. This animation visually supports the complexity of the fibre orientation and the layered structural laminar organisation of the CS sample.

      A key limitation of this result is that, though the DESY data from the CC seems convincing, the same structures were not observed in high-resolution synchrotron (ESRF) data of the same tissue sample in the corpus callosum. This seems surprising and the manuscript does not provide a convincing explanation for this inconsistency. The authors argue that this is due to the limited FOV of the ESRF data (~200x200x800 microns). However, the observed laminar structures in DESY are ~40 microns thick, and ERSF data from the CST suggests laminar thicknesses in the range of 5-40 microns with a similar FOV. This suggests the ERSF FOV would be sufficient to capture at least a partial description of the laminar organisation. Further, the DESY data from the CC shows columnar variations along the LR axis, which we might expect to be observed along the long axis of the ESFR volume of the same sample. Additional analyses or explanations to reconcile these apparently conflicting observations would be of value. For example, the authors could consider down-sampling the ESRF data in an appropriate manner to make it more similar to the DESY data, and running the same analysis, to see if the observed differences are related to resolution (i.e. the thinner laminar structures cluster in ways that they look like a thicker laminar structure at lower resolution), or crop the DESY data to the size of the ESRF volume, to test whether the observed differences can be explained by differences in FOV. Laminar structures were not observed in mouse data, though it is unclear if this is due to anatomical differences or somewhat related to differences in data quality across species.

      R1.3: We have clarified and expanded upon the results regarding the laminar organisation observed in the monkey CC DESY data. As noted in R1.2, we replaced the 2D images in Figures 3A (DESY) and 3B (ESRF) with 3D renderings to better display the spatial outline of the laminar organisation in the volumes. The reviewer is correct that, although the smaller field of view (FOV) of the ESRF data should allow us to at least partially capture parts of the laminar organisation observed in the larger FOV of the DESY data, this is not guaranteed. It depends on how the smaller FOV is positioned relative to the structural organisation, and since we lack co-registration, we do not know this. It should now be visually evident that the ESRF FOV can be placed such that it does not cover the observed laminae, a point which is now also emphasised in the Discussion. 

      Secondly, it is important to emphasise that the voxel colouring using the primary structure tensor direction is just a visualisation technique, which has limitations when it comes to assessing laminar organisation. Mapping 3D directions to RGB colours is inherently difficult and will always have ambiguities. If we had used the standard R-G-B to LR-AP-IS colouring in Figure 3, the laminar organisation would not be evident. Additionally, the laminae will only be visible when there are clear angular differences. There can still be a layered organisation even if we don’t observe it, which is the case for the mouse. The primary direction differences of these layers could be very low (i.e., parallel layers), and consequently not visually evident. This point has been clarified in both the Results and Discussion sections.

      Finally, in response to R1.6, we have added analyses regarding the shape of the FOD, specifically estimating the Orientation Dispersion Index (ODI) and Dispersion Anisotropy (DA). This provides further context to the reviewer’s comments about the discrepancies in laminar organisation. We have reflected on the relationship between DA and the visually observed laminar organisation, and this has been integrated into the relevant parts of the Results and Discussion sections.

      The changes to manuscript reflecting the statements above are listed here: 

      The Discussion section (page 21): “In the monkey CC DESY data, which has a field of view (FOV) comparable to a dMRI voxel, a columnar laminar organisation at a macroscopic level was visually revealed from the structure tensor (ST) direction colouring. However, this laminar organisation was not visible in the higher-resolution ESRF data for the same tissue sample. Although the two samples were not co-registered, the size of a single ESRF FOV within the DESY sample is illustrated in Fig. 3A. This demonstrates the possibility of placing the ESRF sample where the observed laminar structure is absent. Consequently, knowledge of the tissue structural organisation and its orientation is important to fully benefit from the stacked FOV of the ESRF sample and when choosing appropriate minimal FOV sizes in future experiments.

      Interestingly, when characterising FODs with measures like ODI and DA as indicators of fibre organisation, rather than relying on visualisation, results from large- and small-FOV data show no discrepancies. This statistical approach discards the spatial context (visually perceived as laminae), highlighting the need to combine both methods.” 

      The Results section (page 8): “The mid-level DA values suggest some anisotropic spread of the directions, reflecting the angled laminar organisation observed in the DESY sample. Interestingly, the DA value for the ESRF sample is almost identical, despite the laminar bands being less visually apparent.”

      The Results section (page 17): “Nevertheless, visualisation of orientations did not reveal any axonal organisation in the mouse CC due to the lack of local angular contrast, unlike the clear laminar structures seen in the monkey sample (Fig. 3A). Any parallel organisation in tissue remains undetectable because our visual contrast relies on angular differences.”

      The Discussion section (page 22): “In the monkey CC (mid-body), we observed laminar organisation indicated by clear spatial angular differences in the ST directions in the sample (Fig. 3A). Quantifications of the FOD shape showed DA indices of 0.55 and 0.59 for the DESY and ESRF samples, respectively. In contrast, the mouse CC (splenium) did not visually reveal a similar angled laminar organisation (Fig. 7C), and the DA indices were lower, at 0.49 and 0.32, respectively. Two possible explanations exist. First, the within-pathway laminar organisation may not be identical across the entire CC. Consequently, more scans from other CC regions would be required to confirm. Second, the different species might account for the differences. Larger brains like the monkey might foster a different level of within-pathway axon organisation compared to the smaller mouse. Although we could not visually detect laminar organisation from the colour coding of the ST direction in the mouse, the non-zero DA values suggest some level of organisation. This is supported by our streamline tractography, which indicates a vertical layered organisation (Fig. 8A, B). It further aligns with studies using histological tracer mapping that shows a stacked parallel organisation of callosal projections in mice, between cortex regions M1 and S1 (Zhou et al. 2013). Nevertheless, we cannot rely solely on voxel-wise ST directions to fully describe axonal organisation, as this method does not contrast almost parallel fasciculi (inclination angles approaching 0 degrees). Analysing patterns in tractography streamlines would be an interesting future direction for this purpose.”

      The authors further quantify various other characteristics of the white matter, such as micro-dispersion, tortuosity, and maximum displacement. Notably, the microscopic FA calculated via structure tensor is fairly consistent across regions, though not modalities. When fibre orientations are combined across the sample, they are shown to produce similar FODs to dMRI acquired in the same tissue, which is reassuring. As noted in the text, the estimates of tortuosity and max displacement are dependent on the FOV over which they are calculated. Calculating these metrics over the same FOV, or making them otherwise invariant to FOV, could facilitate more meaningful comparisons across samples and/or modalities.

      R1.4: This raises an interesting point about the necessity of normalising the FOV to obtain invariant, tractography-based metrics of tortuosity and maximum deviation across different samples and modalities. In general, achieving this is challenging, and in this study, it is practically not possible. Between species, we encounter significant differences in brain volume ratios, which complicates the establishment of a common reference FOV due to the distinct anatomical organisation of monkey and mouse brains (see our response to R1.8). Within species, we would encounter challenges due to missing contrast—such as issues with staining—and the lack of perfect co-registration.

      The Discussion section (page 28) has been extended to reflect this: ”Within the same species, assuming perfect co-registration of samples, it would be possible to perform correlative imaging and analysis. This would allow validation of whether tractography streamlines could be reproduced at different image resolutions within the same normalised FOV. Although this was not possible with the current data and experimental setup, it would be an interesting point to pursue in future work.”

      Though the results seem solid, some statements, particularly in the abstract and discussion, do not seem to be fully supported by the data. For example, the abstract states "Our findings revealed common principles of fibre organisation in the two species; small axonal fasciculi and major bundles formed laminar structures with varying angles, according to the characteristics of major pathways.", though the results show "no strong indication within the mouse CC of the axonal laminar organisation observed in the monkey". Similarly, the introduction states: "By these means, we demonstrated a new organisational principle of white matter that persists across anatomical length scales and species, which governs the arrangement of axons and axonal fasciculi into sheet-like laminar structures." Further comments on the text are provided below.

      R1.5: We understand that it can be misunderstood that the laminar organisation is identical in monkeys and mice, which is not the case. For example, we show that in the corpus callosum, pathways are parallel in the mouse but not in the monkey. We have clarified that while the principle of layered laminar organisation of pathways is shared between monkeys and mice, species-specific differences do exist.

      We have made the following clarifying changes to the manuscript:

      The Abstract (page 2): “Our findings revealed common principles of fibre organisation that apply despite the varying patterns observed across species” 

      The Introduction (page 4-5): “Through these methods, we demonstrated organisational principles of white matter that persists across anatomical length scales and species. These principles govern the organisation of axonal fasciculi into sheet-like laminar shapes (structures with a predominant planar arrangement). Interestingly, while these principles remain consistent, they result in varied structural organisations in different species.” 

      The Discussion (page 21): “despite species differences”.

      One observation not notably discussed in the paper is that the spherical histograms of Figure 3E/H appear to have an anisotropic spread of the white points about 0,0. It would be interesting if the authors could comment on whether this could be interpreted as the FOD having asymmetric dispersion and if so, whether the axis of dispersion relates to the fibre orientations of the laminar structures.

      R1.6: That is a good point, and to address it, we have fitted spherical Bingham distributions to the FODs, allowing us to quantify their shapes. From each Bingham distribution, we derived two wellknown indices from the diffusion MRI community: the Orientation Dispersion Index (ODI) and Dispersion Anisotropy (DA) index. The ODI explains the dispersion of fibres for a single bundle FOD, whereas DA expresses the shape of the FOD on the unit sphere surface, i.e., the degree of anisotropy. We have integrated the Bingham-based analysis into the Methods, Discussion, and Results sections concerning Figures 3 and 7, but not Figure 4, which contains multiple fibre bundles that we cannot separate on a voxel level. The analysis does not impact the overall message and conclusion but adds interesting context to the discussion around laminar organisation.

      A limitation of the study is that it considers only small ex vivo tissue samples from two locations in a single postmortem monkey brain and slightly larger regions of mouse brain tissue. Consequently, further evidence from additional brain regions and subjects would be required to support more generalised statements about white matter organisation across the brain.

      R1.7: Collecting more samples from various locations in the brain would provide valuable insights into the consistency of white matter organisation across anatomical length scales, as well as the structuretensor based anisotropy and tortuosity metrics. However, being awarded beamtime at two different synchrotron facilities to scan the same sample with different imaging setups is practically challenging. At the ESRF, we have gathered additional image volumes from other white matter regions of the monkey brain that support all our findings, which will be published separately. X-ray synchrotron imaging technology is advancing rapidly, with faster acquisition times enabling more image volumes to be stitched together. This extends the FOV and allows for a more robust statistical description of the anatomy. Consequently, future studies with an extended FOV and varying image resolutions could utilise a single synchrotron facility to collect additional samples, further supporting our findings.

      The Discussion section (page 27) has been extended to reflect this: “Increasing the number of samples across both species and examining laminar organisation at various length scales in more regions would strengthen our findings. However, securing beamtime at two different synchrotron facilities to scan the same sample with varying image resolutions is a limiting factor. Beamline development for multiresolution experimental setups, along with faster acquisition methods, is a rapidly advancing field. For instance, the Hierarchical Phase-Contrast Tomography (HiP-CT) imaging beamline at ID-18 at the ESRF, enables multi-resolution imaging within a single session to address this challenge, though it is currently limited to a resolution of 2.5 μm (Walsh et al. 2021).”

      Given the monkey results, the mouse study (section 2.5 onwards) lacks some motivation. In particular, it is unclear why a demyelination model was studied and if/how this would link to the laminar structure observed in the monkey data. Further, it is unclear how comparable tortuosity/max deviation values are across species, considering the differences in data quality and relative resolution, given that the presented results show these values are very modality-dependent.

      R1.8: We have clarified the motivation for including the mouse part of the study in both the Introduction and the Results sections.

      The Introduction section (page 5): “Furthermore, using a mouse model of focal demyelination induced by cuprizone (CPZ) treatment, we investigate the inflammation-related influence on axonal organisation. This is achieved through the same structure tensor-derived micro-anisotropy and tractography streamline metrics.”

      The Results section (page 15): “Finally, we investigated the organisation of fasciculi in both healthy mouse brains and a murine model of focal demyelination induced by five weeks of cuprizone (CPZ) treatment. This allowed for the exploration of the disease-related influence on axonal organisation, particularly under inflammation-like conditions with high glial cell density at the demyelination site (He et al. 2021). The experimental setup for DESY and ESRF is similar to that described for the monkey, with the exception that we did not perform dMRI and synchrotron imaging on the same brains, and only collected MRI data for healthy mouse brains. This approach allowed us to apply the same structure tensor and tractography streamline analysis used previously, but in a healthy versus disease comparison, demonstrating the methodology’s ability to provide insights into pathological conditions.”

      Across species, the comparison of tortuosity and maximum deviation must be approached with caution. On one hand, we observe a comparable influence of the extra-axonal environment in both the monkey and mice, as discussed in the section “Sources to the non-straight trajectories of axon fasciculi.” On the other hand, the anatomical scale and relative image resolution are significant factors, as correctly pointed out. In the mouse, for instance, the measures are influenced by white matter pathway macroscopic effects, making cross-species comparison challenging to perform in a normalised way.

      The limitations section of the Discussion (page 28) has been updated to reflect this: ”A limiting consequence of having samples imaged at differing anatomical scales is that certain measures become inherently hard to compare in a normalised way. The tractography-based metrics—tortuosity and maximum deviation—serve as good examples of this resolution and FOV dependence. In the ESRF samples, the anatomical scale was at the level of individual axons, and the streamline metrics primarily reflect micro-scale effects from the extra-axonal environment, such as the influence of cells and blood vessels. In comparison, the larger anatomical scale in the DESY samples represents the level of fasciculi and above, with metrics influenced by macroscopic effects, such as the bending of the CC pathway. Both scales are interesting and can provide valuable insights in their own right, but caution is required when comparing the numbers, especially for cross-species studies where there is a significant difference in brain volume ratios.”

      The paper introduces a new method of "scale-space" parameters for structure tensors. Since, to my understanding, this is the first description of the method, some simple validation of the method would be welcomed. Further, the same scale parameters are not used across monkeys and mice, with a larger kernel used in mice (Table 2) which is surprising given their smaller brain size. Some explanation would be helpful.

      R1.9: We have expanded the description of the scale-space structure tensor approach in the Methods section. Specifically, we have elaborated on the empirical process used to select the scale-space parameters shown in Table 2 and explained why multiple scales were applied only to the monkey samples scanned at ESRF (see Table 2, sample IDs 2 and 3) but not to the other datasets. Additionally, we have added a supplementary figure to assist in illustrating the concept.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this work, the authors combine diffusion MRI and high-resolution x-ray synchrotron phase-contrast imaging in monkey and mouse brains to investigate the 3D organization of brain white matter across different scales and species. The work is at the forefront of the anatomical investigation of the human connectome and aligns with several current efforts to bridge the resolution gap between what we can see in vivo at the millimeter scale and the complexity of the human brain at the sub-micron scale. The authors compare the 3D white matter organization across modalities within 2 small regions in one monkey brain (body of the corpus callosum, centrum semiovale) and within one region (splenium of the corpus callosum) in healthy mice and in one murine model of focal demyelination. The study compares measures of tissue anisotropy and fiber orientations across modalities, performs a qualitative comparison of fasciculi trajectories across brain regions and tissue conditions using streamlined tractography based on the structure tensor, and attempts to quantify the shape of fasciculi trajectories by measuring the tortuosity index and the maximum deviation for each reconstructed streamline. Results show measures of anisotropy and fiber orientations largely agree across modalities, especially for larger FOV data. The high-resolution data allows us to explore the fiber trajectories in relation to tissue complexity and pathology. The authors claim the study reveals new common organization principles of white matter fibers across species and scales, for which axonal fasciculi arrange into sheet-like laminar structures.

      Strengths:

      The aim of the study is of central importance within present efforts to bridge the gap between macroscopic structures observable in vivo in humans using conventional diffusion MRI and the microscopic organization of white matter tissue. Results obtained from this type of study are important to interpret data obtained in vivo, inform the development of novel methodologies, and expand our knowledge of the structural and thus functional organization of brain circuits.

      Multi-scale data acquired across modalities within the same sample constitute extremely valuable data that is often hard to acquire and represent a precious resource for validation of both diffusion MRI tractography and microstructure methods.

      The inclusion of multi-species data adds value to the study, allowing the exploration of common organization principles across species.

      The addition of data from a murine cuprizone model of focal demyelination adds interesting opportunities to study the underlying biological changes that follow demyelination and how these impact tissue anisotropy and fiber trajectories. These data can inform the interpretation and development of diffusion MRI microstructure models.

      Weaknesses:

      The main claim of a newly discovered laminar organization principle that is consistent across scales and species is not supported strongly enough by the data. The main evidence in support of the claim comes from the larger FOV data obtained from the body of the corpus callosum in the monkey brain. A laminar organization principle is partially shown in the centrum semiovale in the monkey brain and it is not shown in mice data. Additionally, the methods lack details to help the correct interpretation of these findings (e.g., how were these fasciculi defined?; how well do they represent different axonal populations?; what is the effect of blood vessels on the structure tensor reconstruction?; how was laminar separation quantified?) and the discussion does not provide a biological background for this organization. The corpus callosum sample suggests axons within a bundle of fibers are organized in a sheet-like fashion, while data from the centrum semiovale suggest fibers belonging to different fiber bundles are organized in a sheet-like arrangement. While I acknowledge the challenges in acquiring such high-resolution data, additional samples from different regions in the same animals and from different animals would help strengthen this claim.

      R2.1 

      -  how were these fasciculi defined?

      In the introduction (page 3), we have clarified our definition of an axon fasciculus: “A fasciculus is a bundle of axons that travel together over short or long distances. Its size and shape can vary depending on its internal organisation and its relationship to neighbouring fasciculi.”

      Additionally, we emphasise in the Results section (page 12) that the centroid streamlines are not guaranteed to be actual fasciculi, but rather representations of them. The paragraph now states: “To ease visualisation and quantification, we used QuickBundle clustering(Garyfallidis et al. 2012) to group neighbouring streamlines with similar trajectories into a centroid streamline. This centroid streamline serves as an approximation of the actual trajectory of a fasciculus.”

      - what is the effect of blood vessels on the structure tensor reconstruction?

      Fair point, that was not clear from our description. The clarification contains two parts. First, the estimation of the structure tensor occurs in all voxels, and in that sense, the blood vessels respond very similarly to axons. Second, when it comes to sample statistics derived from the structure tensor analysis (FA histograms and the FODs), they will have an influence, albeit a small one, given the low volume percentage of the blood vessels within the FOVs. In the monkey samples, segmenting the blood vessels was achievable with little effort, allowing us to exclude their contribution from FA statistics and FODs. To make this clear, we have added a paragraph to the Methods section (page 34) titled “Structure tensor-based quantifications,” reflecting this clarification. Additionally, we have restructured the entire structure tensor methods description (starting on page 32) as part of the reviewer comments in R1.6 and R1.9.

      - how was laminar separation quantified?

      We have added a clarification in Results section (page 7): “The laminar thickness was determined by manual measurements on laminae visually identified in the 3D volume”.

      - discussion does not provide a biological background for this organization.

      A good point. Including the biological background is relevant as it supports the laminar organisation of white matter pathways observed in our findings and those of others.

      We have added a section on this background in the Discussion (page 24): “We believe our observed topological rule of white matter laminar organisation can be explained by a biological principle known from studies of nervous tissue development. The first axons to reach their destination, guided by their growth cones, are known as “pioneering” axons. “Follower” axons use the shaft of the pioneering axon for guidance to efficiently reach the target region (Breau and Trembleau 2023). Axons can form a fasciculus by fasciculating or defasciculating along their trajectory through a zippering or unzipping mechanism, controlled by chemical, mechanical, and geometrical parameters. Zippering “glues” the axons together, while unzipping allows them to defasciculate at a low angle (Šmít et al. 2017). Although speculative, the zippering mechanism may be responsible for forming the laminar topology observed across length scales. The defasciculation effect can explain our results in the corpus callosum (CC) of monkeys, with laminar structures at low angles (~35 degrees) also observed by (Innocenti et al. 2019; Caminiti et al. 2009), as well as in other major pathways (Sarubbo et al. 2019). In contrast, a fasciculation mechanism may be observed in the mouse CC (0 degrees). If the geometrical angle between two axons is high, i.e., toward 90 degrees, the zippering mechanism will not occur, and the two axons (fasciculi) will cross (Šmít et al. 2017). This supports our and other findings that crossing fasciculi or pathways occur at high angles toward 90 degrees in the fully matured brain (Wedeen et al. 2012). Once myelination begins, the zippering mechanism is lost (Šmít et al. 2017), suggesting that laminar topology is established at the earliest stages of brain maturation.”

      - additional samples from different regions in the same animals and from different animals would help strengthen this claim

      Reviewer #1 also pointed to the inclusion of additional samples, and this is now discussed as part of the study limitations on page 27 (see also R1.7).

      The main goal of the study is to bridge the organization of white matter across anatomical length scales and species. However, given the substantial difference in FOVs between the two imaging modalities used, and the absence of intermediate-resolution data, it remains difficult to effectively understand how these results can be used to inform conventional diffusion MRI. In this sense, the introduction does not do a good enough job of building a strong motivation for the scientific questions the authors are trying to answer with these experiments and for the specific methodology used.

      R2.2: Indeed, this is an essential point now emphasised in the introduction, page 3, which now states: ”Despite the limited resolution of dMRI, the water diffusion process can reveal microstructural geometrical features, such as axons and cell bodies, though these features are compounded at the voxel level. Consequently, estimating microstructural characteristics depends on biophysical modelling assumptions, which can often be simplistic due to limited knowledge of the 3D morphology of cells and axons and their intermediate-level topological organisation within a voxel. Thus, complementary highresolution imaging techniques that directly capture axon morphology and fasciculi organisation in 3D across different length scales within an MRI voxel are essential for understanding anatomy and improving the accuracy of dMRI-based models(Alexander et al. 2019).”

      Additionally, in the introduction, page 4, we have made the following changes to strengthen the link across modalities, such that it now states: “In the x-ray synchrotron data, we applied a scale-space structure tensor analysis, which allowed for the quantification of structure tensor-derived tissue anisotropy and FOD in the same anatomical regime indirectly detected by dMRI.”

      The cuprizone data represent a unique opportunity to explore the effect of demyelination on white matter tissue. However, this specific part of the study is not well motivated in the introduction and seems to represent a missed opportunity for further exploration of the qualitative and quantitative relationship between diffusion MRI and sub-micron tissue information (although unfortunately not within the same brain sample). This is especially true considering the diffusion MRI protocol for mice would allow extrapolation of advanced measures from different tissue compartments.

      R2.3: A similar point was raised by Reviewer 1 (R1.8), and we have clarified the motivation for including the healthy mice and the demyelination samples.  

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Many thanks to the authors for providing open data. This was very helpful when reviewing the manuscript and is a valuable resource for the community.

      R1.10: We are happy to share our data with the community. Understanding anatomy in 3D is hard to achieve through still images and animations, so the ability to explore it on your own is quite important. The link to the data repository has been added in the Methods section in the following paragraph: “Due to the size of the data selected, processed image volumes, masks and results are available at https://zenodo.org/records/10458911. Other datasets can be shared on request.“

      One confusing element of the paper is that orientations (or axes) do not seem to be consistent across samples/modalities. For example, the green tensors in Figures 3 C and D are tilted up/down in opposite directions and the streamlines in Figure 5A seem opposite (SL) from what we would expect from Figure 2A (SR). Having consistent orientations across modalities and images would help the reader. When colouring tensors (e.g. in Figure 3), the authors could consider a 3D colour scheme (similar to that used by diffusion MRI) rather than colouring by only inclination, as this would provide useful information on whether different laminae have similar orientations, as implied by the tractography in Figure 4.

      R1.11: Thank you for spotting the suboptimal consistency between Figures 2, 3, and 5. Figure 2 has been corrected and updated. The left-right direction in the coronal views was not correctly displayed. Additionally, the glyph directions have been updated in Figures 2 and 3.

      By default, we use the “standard” RGB colour scheme used in dMRI. However, for the monkey CC— essentially Figure 3—this did not effectively illustrate our findings. We decided to use a different directional colour encoding scheme, which captures the angular deviation from the L-R axis. This was to assist in the visualisation of the inclination angle between the laminars. We have used the same colour scheme for the tensors in Figure 3 to avoid confusion.

      On a general note, the standard colour scheme has uniform “colour contrast” in all directions, but when there is only a single dominant direction in the sample, it can make sense to concentrate the colour contrast in that axis.

      Results: "even higher FA anisotropy in the micro-tensor domain of 0.997, i.e., the micro (μ)FA (20, 21)." I understand these references lead to a definition of μFA that is based on multiple diffusion tensor encodings which is quite different from that suggested by Kaden. It may be preferable to reference Kaden directly (since I understand this is the method used) to avoid confusion.

      R1.12: Correctly spotted, and we now reference the method from Kaden et al. and use the other references elsewhere when relevant.

      "and scanned the mouse brain in a whole." - typo?

      R1.13: Thank you for spotting the typo. The mouse brain was kept in the skull during MRI scanning, which has been clarified in the Methods section.

      The crossing fibre region appears to be sometimes referred to as the centrum semiovale, and other times as the CST. CS seems the better description and keeping this naming consistent would avoid confusion to the reader.

      R1.14: Well spotted, thank you. We have replaced the usage of Corticospinal Tract (CST) with centrum semiovale (CS) where relevant.

      Direct comments on the text:

      Abstract: "Individual axon fasciculi exhibited tortuous paths .... in a manner independent of fibre complexity and demyelination"

      Do statistical comparisons of the various distributions support this? The data shows somewhat increased tortuosity in the CST compared to the CC, and somewhat lower tortuosity in CPZ tissue.

      R1.15: The intention of the text was not to point to the comparison of tortuosity, but rather to highlight the maximum deviation. We observe a high probability density of maximum deviations at approximately 5-10 microns in all samples, which corresponds to the size of structures in the extraaxonal environment, such as blood vessels and cells.

      Additionally, we understand that the original statement might imply an expectation of a statistical analysis demonstrating independence, which is not the case. To clarify, we have reformulated the sentence in the Abstract (page 2) to address these points: “Fasciculi exhibited non-straight paths around obstacles like blood vessels, comparable across the samples of varying fibre complexity and demyelination.”

      Abstract: "A quantitative analysis of tissue anisotropies and fibre orientation distributions gave consistent results for different anatomical length scales and modalities, while being dependent on the field-of-view."

      To my understanding, the FODs here from different modalities are calculated over different FOVs (in monkeys at least), and FODs are only presented for a single FOV for each modality, meaning it is difficult to separate the effects of modality from FOV. The microscopic anisotropy is also noticeably different across modalities (DESY < ESRF < dMRI).

      R1.16: That is a fair point. Our statement was trying to capture too much condensed content to be correctly interpretable. We have reformulated the sentence to state: “Quantifications of fibre orientation distributions were consistent across anatomical length scales and modalities, whereas tissue anisotropy had a more complex relationship, both dependent on the field-of-view”.

      While it is true that we only present the ST-derived quantifications – FOD and FA statistics – for a single FOV per modality and sample, the results shown for the ESRF monkey samples (Figures 3 and 4) are a merge of four individually processed volumes. The quantifications of each individual subFOV have now been added as a supplementary figure (Figure S3) to highlight the consistency of the methodology and the effect of shifting the FOV position. In the case of the mouse, we have two volumes from different mice, which also display similar FOD and FA statistics.

      Abstract: "Our study emphasises the need to balance field-of-view and voxel size when characterising white matter features across anatomical length scales."

      This point does not seem very well explored in the paper, rather it is an observation of the limitations of the different imaging modalities. For example, there aren't analyses to compare metrics from highresolution data at different FOVs (i.e. by taking neighbourhoods of different sizes), nor are metrics compared from data at different resolutions and the same FOV.

      R1.17: The question is related to R1.16, R1.4, and R1.8, and we have addressed this point in our responses to those comments.

      Figure 7 - Taking into account the eigenvalues can be helpful when interpreting the secondary and tertiary eigenvectors of tensors (V2 and V3). It would be interesting to know whether the eigenvalues L2 ~= L3 are approximately equal (suggesting isotropic diffusion about V1, where the definition of V2 versus V3 isn't very meaningful), or if L2 is noticeably larger than L3 (suggesting anisotropic diffusion about V1, potentially similar to the anisotropic dispersion discussed above).

      R1.18: It would be interesting to explore the eigenvalues of the structure tensor in more detail, as has been done for the diffusion tensor. However, we believe this belongs to future work, as such additional detailed methodological analysis would complicate the already complex story. As mentioned in response to R1.10, most processed data has been made publicly available, and the rest can be requested (due to the storage size of the data sets) to perform such additional analysis.

      Discussion: "Importantly, our findings revealed common principles of fibre organisation in both monkeys and mice; small axonal fasciculi and major bundles formed sheet-like laminar structures," See above regarding the lack of evidence for laminar structures in mouse data.

      R1.19: We have reformulated the text for clarification as part of R1.3. Additionally, we added FOD quantifications to support why we do not observe an apparent laminar organisation in the mouse CC— please see our response to R1.6.

      Discussion: "Interestingly, the dispersion magnitude is indicative of fasciculi that skirt around obstacles in the white matter such as cells and blood vessels, and the results are largely independent of both white matter complexity (straight vs crossing fibre region) and pathology." Again, do statistical tests of the various distributions support this?

      R1.20: As part of R1.1, we have added statistical tests of significance for the quantifications of how max deviation changes when bending around objects. Indeed, the distributions are not statistically the same, and we do not wish to convey that sentiment, but they are comparable in the object sizes that they detect. As done in the abstract, we have reformulated the sentence to avoid misunderstanding and have replaced “largely independent” with “observed across.”

      Discussion: "Tax et al. have demonstrated the calculation of a sheet probability index from diffusion MRI data, which suggested the presence of sheet-like features in the CC"

      My understanding was that this was observed in crossing fibre regions, such as where fibres projecting with the CC cross the CST, but not the main body of the CC itself. Tax defines sheet structure as "composed of two tracts that cross each other on the same surface in certain regions along their trajectories." Is this a different phenomenon to the laminar structures observed here (where we observe fibres within a single tract being locally organised into laminar structures)?

      R1.21: Thank you for pointing our attention to this. We have corrected the section in the Discussion (page 23), so it now states: “Additionally, Tax et al. have demonstrated the calculation of a gridcrossing sheet probability index from diffusion MRI data, which suggested the presence of sheet-like features in a crossing fibre region (Tax et al. 2016), which is in line with our findings in the synchrotron data. Note that the method by Tax et al. only detects sheet-like structures crossing on a grid and does not reveal laminar structures with lower inclination angles, as we observed in the monkey CC.”

      Discussion: "We found that FODs were consistent across image resolutions and modalities, but only given that the FOV is the same." See above.

      R1.22: As part of our response to R1.6, we quantified the FODs using the ODI and DA indices, which should help support our statement. Nevertheless, we have toned down the statement and reformulated the text as follows: “We found that FODs were comparable across image resolutions and modalities. The observed discrepancies can be attributed to the fact that the FOVs are not exactly matched.”

      Discussion: "microscopic FA were highly correlated across modalities."

      The data shows FA is considerably lower in DESY to ESRF; within modality FA is quite consistent irrespective of tissue region; and differences between the CC and CG shown in ESRF data in mice are not repeated in DESY. It is unclear from the current data if this would lead to a high correlation across modalities. Some evidence would be helpful.

      R1.23: This is a fair point; we have not performed a correlation analysis. However, the pattern we observe for the synchrotron samples is as follows: When the anatomical length scale increases (becomes more macroscopic), the FA distribution shifts to lower values. This reflects the scale of information captured with the ST analysis (see also R1.9). Therefore, the most interesting comparison of FA statistics occurs when the resolution and anatomical length scale are approximately the same.  The sentence in question has been reformulated to the following: ”Estimates of structure tensor derived microscopic FA show a clear pattern across modalities.”

      Discussion: "If so, the (inclination angle) information might serve to form rules for low-resolution diffusion MRI based tractography about how best to project through bottleneck regions, which is currently a source of false-positives trajectories (6)."

      This is an interesting idea but it is unclear to me how this inclination information would help track through bottlenecks where, by definition, fibres are passing through with the same orientation. Some further explanation would be helpful.

      R1.24: We have elaborated on the section in the Discussion (page 23), explaining how this can be used to improve tractography tracing through complex regions: “The reason is that standard tractography methods do not "remember" or follow anatomical organisation rules as they trace through complex regions. Our findings on pathway lamination and inclination angles—low for parallel-like trajectories and high for crossing-like trajectories—can help incorporate trajectory memory into these methods, reducing the risk of false trajectories”.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Below I report comments that if addressed I believe would improve the clarity and readability of the manuscript.

      -  Figures 1 and 2 would be more meaningful if combined into one figure. This would allow for a direct visual comparison of the two modalities. If space is needed, I believe the second row of Figure 1 (coronal views of CC) does not add much information. It is often hard to navigate the different orientations of the tissue in the images; thus any effort in trying to help the reader visually clarify would improve readability.

      R2.4: We considered the reviewer’s suggestion to merge Figures 2 and 3. However, this made both the figures and the main text additionally complex, so we chose to retain the original figure layout. Secondly, Figure 3 utilises a non-standard directional colormap. Keeping the colormap consistent within each figure is a feature we wish to preserve. In response to R1.11, the figures have been updated to have more consistent orientations for the monkey samples.

      In Figure 2, the second row, showing a coronal view of the CC, is essential for comparison with human data in Figure S1. It highlights where we observed the columnar laminar organisation and their inclination angle, as also detected by DTI.

      -  Figure 4 shows synchrotron data revealing an anterior-posterior component within the centrum semiovale that is not necessarily seen in the dMRI data. Could the authors comment on this?

      R2.5: Thank you for pointing this out. We have now addressed this in the Results section (page 10), where we describe the observation in detail: “Interestingly, visual inspection of the colour-coded structure tensor directions in Fig. 4E shows the existence of voxels whose primary direction is along the A-P axis. However, this represents a small enough portion of the volume that it does not appear as a distinct peak on the FOD.“

      -  The authors claim they observed several purple axons crossing orthogonally in Figure 5c. However, that is not necessarily clear in the figure.

      R2.6: We appreciate the feedback. We have now coloured the streamlines of the crossing fasciculi in Figure 5C in red.

      -  Figure 5 would benefit from adding the color encoding scheme for Figure 5d, as sometimes this is not necessarily consistent.

      R2.7: We appreciate the feedback. We have added an indication of the standard directional colour coding to Figure 5D.

      -  Figure 5d shows interesting data from the complex region. However, it is hard to visualize and it looks like there are not many streamlines traveling entirely I-S? Maybe a different orientation of the sample would help visualization.

      R2.8: A similar point was raised by Reviewer 1 (see R1.2). We have added an animation of the scene to assist in the interpretation of the 3D organisation within this complex sample.

      -  The concept of axon fasciculi is not necessarily immediately clear. Adding an explanation for what the authors refer to when using this term would improve clarity.

      R2.9: In the introduction, we now state our conceptual definition of an axon fasciculus as a number of axons that follow each other (see also R2.1).

      -  The methods do not provide details on how structure tensor FA is measured.

      R2.10: Thank you for pointing this out. We have restructured and expanded the structure tensor description in the Methods section (see also R1.9 and R2.1), which now includes the definition of FA.

      -  Why didn't the authors select the same cc region for both mice and monkeys? It seems this would have increased the strength of the comparison.

      R2.11: We agree. The reason lies in the chronology of experiments and the fact that we cannot control where demyelination takes place. We have added a clarifying description in the Methods section (page 31): “Note that several separate beamline experiments were conducted to collect the volumes listed in Table 1. In the first two experiments, samples from the monkey brain were scanned at ESRF and DESY, respectively. The samples from the mouse brain were imaged in two subsequent experiments. Consequently, the location of the identified demyelinating lesion in the cuprizone mice, which cannot be precisely controlled, did not match the location of the CC biopsies in the monkey.”

      -  While it is mentioned in the results, the methods do not explain how vessel segmentations or cell segmentation in mice was performed and for which datasets it was performed.

      R2.12: For the small ROI shown in Figure 6, the labelling was a manual process using the software ITK-SNAP, which has now been clarified in the corresponding figure caption. The generation of ROI masks and blood vessel segmentations involved a combination of intensity thresholding, morphological operations, and manual labelling in ITK-SNAP. This has been clarified in the restructured and expanded description of structure tensor analysis in the Methods section (starting on page 32).

      -  From the methods it is hard to understand (1) how many mice were used; (2) why dMRI was done on a different sample; (3) whether the same selenium region was selected for both healthy and CPZ animals; (4) how the registration across samples was performed.

      R2.13: We appreciate the feedback and have inserted clarifying statements in the relevant parts of the Methods section. (1) The total number of mice included was three: one normal, one cuprizone, and one normal for MRI scanning. (2) The quality of the collected dMRI on the mouse was too poor to use, and it could not be redone as the brain had already been sliced and prepared for synchrotron experiments. (3) The same splenium section was selected for both healthy and cuprizone mice. (4) A paragraph on image registration has been added.

      -  Diffusion MRI method sections would benefit from additional details on the protocols used.

      R2.14: Thank you for pointing this out. We have added more details about the diffusion MRI protocols, including the b-value, gradient strength, and other relevant parameters.

    1. Author response:

      eLife Assessment

      This study provides useful findings about the effects of heterozygosity for Trio variants linked to neurodevelopmental and psychiatric disorders in mice. However, the strength of the evidence is limited and incomplete mainly because the experimental flow is difficult to follow, raising concerns about the conclusions' robustness. Clearer connections between variables, such as sex, age, behavior, brain regions, and synaptic measures, and more methodological detail on breeding strategies, test timelines, electrophysiology, and analysis, are needed to support their claims.

      We appreciate the opportunity to address the constructive feedback provided by eLife and the reviewers. Below, we respond to the overall assessment and individual reviewers' comments, clarifying our experimental approach, addressing concerns, and providing additional details where necessary.

      We thank the editors for highlighting the significance of our findings regarding the effects of Trio variant heterozygosity in mice. We acknowledge the feedback concerning the experimental flow and agree that clarity is paramount. To address these concerns:

      (1) Connections between variables: We will revise the manuscript to explicitly outline and extend explanations and the relationships between sex, age, behavior, brain regions, and synaptic measures, ensuring that the rationale for each experiment and its relevance to the overall conclusions are improved.

      (2) Methodological details: Our paper Methods section was formatted to be short with additional details provided in the Supplemental Methods section.  We will merge all into an extended section to improve clarity. We will also expand on our breeding strategies, test timelines, electrophysiological protocols, and data analysis methods in the revised Methods section. These additions aim to enhance the transparency and reproducibility of our study and to ensure full support of our conclusions.

      (3) Experimental flow: We will revise and extend our results, methods, and discussion sections to clarify the rationale and experimental design to guide readers through the experimental sequence and rationale.

      We are confident these revisions address the concerns raised and enhance the robustness and coherence of our findings.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study explores how heterozygosity for specific neurodevelopmental disorder-associated Trio variants affects mouse behavior, brain structure, and synaptic function, revealing distinct impacts on motor, social, and cognitive behaviors linked to clinical phenotypes. Findings demonstrate that Trio variants yield unique changes in synaptic plasticity and glutamate release, highlighting Trio's critical role in presynaptic function and the importance of examining variant heterozygosity in vivo.

      Strengths:

      This study generated multiple mouse lines to model each Trio variant, reflecting point mutations observed in human patients with developmental disorders. The authors employed various approaches to evaluate the resulting behavioral, neuronal morphology, synaptic function, and proteomic phenotypes.

      Weaknesses:

      While the authors present extensive results, the flow of experiments is challenging to follow, raising concerns about the strength of the experimental conclusions. Additionally, the connection between sex, age, behavioral data, brain regions, synaptic transmission, and plasticity lacks clarity, making it difficult to understand the rationale behind each experiment. Clearer explanations of the purpose and connections between experiments are recommended. Furthermore, the methodology requires more detail, particularly regarding mouse breeding strategies, timelines for behavioral tests, electrophysiology conditions, and data analysis procedures.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s recognition of the novelty and comprehensiveness of our approach, particularly the generation of multiple mouse lines and our efforts to model Trio variant effects in vivo.

      Weaknesses

      (1) Experimental flow and rationale and connection between variables: We will expand on the connections between behavioral data, neuronal morphology, synaptic function, and proteomics in the Results and Discussion sections to clarify how each experiment informs the reasoning and the conclusions and to highlight the relationships between sex, age, behavior, and synaptic measures.

      (2) Methodological details: Our paper Methods section was formatted to be short to fulfill word limits on the submitted version, with additional details provided in the Supplemental Methods section. We will merge our Methods and Supplemental Methods sections and expand on our breeding strategies, test timelines, electrophysiological protocols, and data analysis methods in the revised Methods section.  These additions aim to enhance the transparency and reproducibility of our study and to ensure full support of our conclusions.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors generated three mouse lines harboring ASD, Schizophrenia, and Bipolar-associated variants in the TRIO gene. Anatomical, behavioral, physiological, and biochemical assays were deployed to compare and contrast the impact of these mutations in these animals. In this undertaking, the authors sought to identify and characterize the cellular and molecular mechanisms responsible for ASD, Schizophrenia, and Bipolar disorder development.

      Strengths:

      The establishment of TRIO dysfunction in the development of ASD, Schizophrenia, and Bipolar disorder is very recent and of great interest. Disorder-specific variants have been identified in the TRIO gene, and this study is the first to compare and contrast the impact of these variants in vivo in preclinical models. The impact of these mutations was carefully examined using an impressive host of methods. The authors achieved their goal of identifying behavioral, physiological, and molecular alterations that are disorder/variant specific. The impact of this work is extremely high given the growing appreciation of TRIO dysfunction in a large number of brain-related disorders. This work is very interesting in that it begins to identify the unique and subtle ways brain function is altered in ASD, Schizophrenia, and Bipolar disorder.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Most assays were performed in older animals and perhaps only capture alterations that result from homeostatic changes resulting from prodromal pathology that may look very different.

      (2) Identification of upregulated (potentially compensating) genes in response to these disorder-specific Trio variants is extremely interesting. However, a functional demonstration of compensation is not provided.

      (3) There are instances where data is not shown in the manuscript. See "data not shown". All data collected should be provided even if significant differences are not observed.

      I consider weaknesses 1 and 2 minor. While they would very interesting to explore, these experiments might be more appropriate for a follow-up study. I would recommend that the missing data in 3 should be provided in the supplemental material.

      We are grateful for the reviewer’s recognition of our study’s significance and methodological rigor. The acknowledgment of Trio dysfunction as a novel and impactful area of research is deeply appreciated.

      Weaknesses: 

      We agree that focusing on older animals may limit insights into early-stage pathophysiology. However, given the goal of this study was to examine the functional impacts of Trio heterozygosity at an adolescent stage and to reveal the ultimate impact of these alleles on synaptic function, we believe the choice of animal age aligns with our objectives. We agree that future studies of earlier developmental stages will be beneficial and complement these findings.

      Functional compensation: In this study, we tested functional compensation through rescue experiments in +/K1431M brain slices using a Rac1-specific inhibitor, NSC, which prevents its activation by Trio or Tiam1. Our findings strongly suggest that increased Rac1 activity, attributed to the proposed compensation, drives the deficiency in neurotransmitter release. Furthermore, this deficiency can be normalized by direct Rac1 inhibition.

      Data not shown: We will incorporate all previously shown data into the Supplemental Materials, even when results are nonsignificant. We agree that this ensures full transparency and facilitates a more comprehensive evaluation of our findings.

    1. Author response:

      We thank the editors at eLife and the reviewers for the care with which our mansucript has been reviewed and the constructive feedback that we have received. Both reviewers viewed the manuscript positively and in particular praised the merits of the forward genetic screen that led to the discovery of a new link between the HIF-1 pathway and fatty acid desaturation.

      We agree with all points by Reviewer #1. We will modify our manuscript to clarify that two types of C18:1 fatty acids are present in our lipidomics, and that the majority is likely vaccenic acid that is not a FAT-2 substrate. The title will be modified and Fig. 1A corrected.

      All points raised by Reviewer #2 are also valid and we will try to address most of them experimentally, though not always as suggested. In particular, we plan to use FRAP to verify that membrane-fluidizing treatments are effective in the fat-2 mutant. We also plan to use qPCR to test whether the novel egl-9(lof) and hif-1(gof) alleles lead to the expected downregulation of ftn-2. We note that the pathway connecting EGL-9, HIF-1 and FTN-2 is well supported by published work and that the alleles isolated in our screen are consistent with it, with the addition that FAT-2 is likely a regulated outcome of FTN-2 inhibition/mutation. We also plan to monitor FAT-2 protein levels using Western blots and thus provide more clarity about the mechanism of action of the novel fat-2(wa17) suppressors. The manuscript will be modified to tone down interpretations not directly supported by experiments.

    1. Author response:

      We would like to thank the editors and reviewers for reviewing our work, for finding it valuable supported by convincing data, which we greatly appreciate, but also for identifying the weaknesses of the manuscript. We plan to address these weaknesses in the revised version, briefly as follows:

      (1) In the Discussion, we will elaborate more on a possible generalization of our results, while being aware of the limited space in this experimental paper and therefore intend to address this in more detail and comprehensively in a subsequent perspective article.

      (2) In the Discussion, we will more clearly address the limitations of our work, in particular the difference between the measurement of extracellular adenosine production ex vivo and the actual production in vivo, where the measurement is indeed very challenging, and also the limitations of manipulating the SAM pathway only at the Ahcy level.

      (3) We will describe in detail and complement the supplementary RNAseq data. The RNAseq data have already been described in detail in our previous paper (doi.org/10.1371/journal.pbio.3002299), but we agree with the reviewers that we should describe the necessary details again here.

      (4) We will fill in the missing data on encapsulation efficiency; we agree that it was unfortunate to omit them.

      (5) We will supplement the data with methyltransferase expressions and better describe the changes in expression of some SAM pathway genes, which, especially with methyltransferase expressions, also support stimulation of this pathway by changes in expression. Although the goal of this work was to test by 13C-labeling whether SAM pathway activity is upregulated, not to analyze how the activity is regulated, we certainly agree that an explanation of possible regulation, especially in the context of the enzyme expressions we show, should be included in our work.

    1. Author response:

      We thank the editors and reviewers for their comments on our manuscript. We found the comments of the reviewers helpful and plan to add new text, analyses, and figures to answer some of the outstanding questions.

      In response to the reviewers’ comments, we will clarify the goal of the paper in the introduction: to test the hypothesis that causal knowledge (i.e., an intuitive theory of biology) is embedded in domain-preferring semantic networks (i.e., semantic animacy network). This work links developmental psychology work on intuitive theories and cognitive neuroscience.

      As we will emphasize in the revised manuscript, the primary goal of the current paper is to test the claim that semantic networks encode causal knowledge, rather than to rule out the contribution of domain-general reasoning mechanisms to causal inference.

      In response to the reviewers’ suggestions, we will add multivariate and univariate whole-cortex analyses that provide further tests for domain-general causality responses. In particular, we will include new figures showing univariate responses to the mechanical inference condition over the non-causal control conditions as well as decoding between these conditions. The reviewers have also asked us to provide individual subject dispersion data. We appreciate this suggestion, and new figures will be added to display this information.

      We will also perform additional analysis in the precuneus (PC) to look for shared responses to illness and mechanical inferences. In accordance with our hypotheses, we have shown that the PC responds preferentially to illness inferences. To address the reviewers’ concerns about the selectivity of the PC to illness inferences, we will compare responses to i) illness inferences compared to the noncausal conditions and ii) mechanical inferences compared to the noncausal conditions in the PC to investigate the extent to which a shared response to causal inference across domains emerges in this region.

      Critically, we find that the cortical areas that distinguish between causal and non-causal conditions in a ‘domain general manner’ (i.e., for both illness and mechanical inferences) are driven by higher responses to the non-causal condition. Moreover, these responses in prefrontal cortex and elsewhere overlap an RT predictor of neural activity, suggesting that they may reflect difficulty effects.

      These results suggest that in the current task, signatures of causal inference are primarily found in domain-preferring semantic networks, rather than in domain-general fronto-parietal reasoning systems. We will provide additional discussion of the argument that the current results do not speak against the role of domain general systems across all types of causal reasoning. Instead, they suggest that the types of implicit causal inferences measured in the current study depend primarily on domain-preferring semantic networks.

      The reviewers have asked us to analyze responses to causal inferences about illness in the fusiform face area (FFA). We will perform this analysis. However, we note that univariate and multivariate whole-cortex analyses that are already included in the paper did not identify lateral ventral occipito-temporal cortex as a key region involved in causal inferences about illness. Further, we do not have FFA localizer data in the current participants; therefore, the results cannot be interpreted to reflect activity in functionally defined FFA.

      Two reviewers asked us to justify our choice of an implicit magic-detection task, which we will now do more clearly in the manuscript. This task was selected to ensure that participants were attending to the meaning of the vignettes. The goal of the current study was to investigate implicit causal inferences that routinely occur in language comprehension, e.g., when someone is reading a book. Past work has shown that explicitly judging the causality of causal and non-causal stimuli results in differences in response times across conditions (e.g., Kuperberg et al., 2006). In the current study, such judgments would also have introduced a confound between the behavioral decision and the condition of interest: the use of an explicit causal judgment task makes it impossible to know whether any observed neural differences between causal and non-causal conditions are simply due to differences in the selection of task responses. The selection of an orthogonal magic-detection task limits these confounds from complicating our interpretation of the neural data.

      One of the reviewers asked us to justify the number of catch trials that we decided to include in our paradigm. Approximately 20% of the vignettes were “magical” vignettes (the same proportion as each of the 4 experimental conditions) to encourage participants to remain attentive throughout the task. Since these catch trials are excluded from analysis, their proportion is unlikely to influence the results of the study. We will clarify this in the manuscript.

      A question was raised about the balance of trial numbers across conditions and across runs. To address this, we will include individual comparisons of each causal condition (n=36) with each non-causal condition (n=36; i.e., equal trial counts) where they are not already shown. With regard to runs, each condition is shown either 6 or 7 times per run (maximum difference of 1 trial between conditions), and the number of trials per condition is equal across the whole experiment: each condition is shown 7 times in two of the runs and 6 times four of the runs. This minor design imbalance is typical of fMRI experiments and is unlikely to impact the results. We will clarify this in the manuscript.

      We believe that our planned revisions will strengthen the paper and highlight its contributions to our understanding of the neural basis of implicit causal inference.

    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Horizontal gene transfer is the transmission of genetic material between organisms through ways other than reproduction. Frequent in prokaryotes, this mode of genetic exchange is scarcer in eukaryotes, especially in multicellular eukaryotes. Furthermore, the mechanisms involved in eukaryotic HGT are unknown. This article by Banerjee et al. claims that HGT occurs massively between cells of multicellular organisms. According to this study, the cell free chromatin particles (cfChPs) that are massively released by dying cells are incorporated in the nucleus of neighboring cells. These cfChPs are frequently rearranged and amplified to form concatemers, they are made of open chromatin, expressed, and capable of producing proteins. Furthermore, the study also suggests that cfChPs transmit transposable elements (TEs) between cells on a regular basis, and that these TEs can transpose, multiply, and invade receiving cells. These conclusions are based on a series of experiments consisting in releasing cfChPs isolated from various human sera into the culture medium of mouse cells, and using FISH and immunofluorescence to monitor the state and fate of cfChPs after several passages of the mouse cell line.

      Strengths:

      The results presented in this study are interesting because they may reveal unsuspected properties of some cell types that may be able to internalize free-circulating chromatin, leading to its chromosomal incorporation, expression, and unleashing of TEs. The authors propose that this phenomenon may have profound impacts in terms of diseases and genome evolution. They even suggest that this could occur in germ cells, leading to within-organism HGT with long-term consequences.

      Weaknesses:

      The claims of massive HGT between cells through internalization of cfChPs are not well supported because they are only based on evidence from one type of methodological approach: immunofluorescence and fluorescent in situ hybridization (FISH) using protein antibodies and DNA probes. Yet, such strong claims require validation by at least one, but preferably multiple, additional orthogonal approaches. This includes, for example, whole genome sequencing (to validate concatemerization, integration in receiving cells, transposition in receiving cells), RNA-seq (to validate expression), ChiP-seq (to validate chromatin state).

      We agree with the reviewer’s suggestions. We propose to use RNA-seq using an orthogonal platform as a solution. This will allow us to answer multiple questions viz. validation of expression of human DNA in mouse cells, obtaining a detailed insight into genes and pathways driven by human cfChPs and enable us to identify chimeric human and mouse transcripts.

      Another weakness of this study is that it is performed only in one receiving cell type (NIH3T3 mouse cells). Thus, rather than a general phenomenon occurring on a massive scale in every multicellular organism, it could merely reflect aberrant properties of a cell line that for some reason became permeable to exogenous cfChPs. This begs the question of the relevance of this study for living organisms.

      We agree with the reviewer’s suggestion. We propose to show horizontal transfer of cfChPs using four different cell-lines representing four different species.

      Should HGT through internalization of circulating chromatin occur on a massive scale, as claimed in this study, and as illustrated by the many FISH foci observed in Fig 3 for example, one would expect that the level of somatic mosaicism may be so high that it would prevent assembling a contiguous genome for a given organism. Yet, telomere-to-telomere genomes have been produced for many eukaryote species, calling into question the conclusions of this study.

      The reviewer is right in expecting that the level of somatic mosaicism may be so high that it would prevent assembling a contiguous genome. This is indeed the case, and we find that beyond ~ 250 passages the genomes of the cfChPs treated NIH3T3 cells begin to die out apparently become their genomes have become too unstable for survival. This point will be highlighted in the revised version. It is likely that cell death resulting from large scale HGT creates a vicious cycle of more cell death induced by cfChPs thereby helping to explain the massive daily turnover of cells in the body (10<sup>9</sup> – 10<sup>12</sup> cells per day).  

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      I must note that my comments pertain to the evolutionary interpretations rather than the study's technical results. The techniques appear to be appropriately applied and interpreted, but I do not feel sufficiently qualified to assess this aspect of the work in detail.

      I was repeatedly puzzled by the use of the term "function." Part of the issue may stem from slightly different interpretations of this word in different fields. In my understanding, "function" should denote not just what a structure does, but what it has been selected for. In this context, where it is unclear if cfChPs have been selected for in any way, the use of this term seems questionable.

      We think this is a matter of semantics. We have used the term “function” since cfChPs that enter the cell are biologically active; they transcribe, translate, synthesize, proteins and proliferate. We, therefore feel that the term function is not inappropriate.

      Similarly, the term "predatory genome," used in the title and throughout the paper, appears ambiguous and unjustified. At this stage, I am unconvinced that cfChPs provide any evolutionary advantage to the genome. It is entirely possible that these structures have no function whatsoever and could simply be byproducts of other processes. The findings presented in this study do not rule out this neutral hypothesis. Alternatively, some particular components of the genome could be driving the process and may have been selected to do so. This brings us to the hypothesis that cfChPs could serve as vehicles for transposable elements. While speculative, this idea seems to be compatible with the study's findings and merits further exploration.

      We take the reviewer’s point. We will replace the term “predatory genome” with a more neutral and factual term “supernumerary genome” in the title and throughout the manuscript in the revised version.

      I also found some elements of the discussion unclear and speculative, particularly the final section on the evolution of mammals. If the intention is simply to highlight the evolutionary impact of horizontal transfer of transposable elements (e.g., as a source of new mutations), this should be explicitly stated. In any case, this part of the discussion requires further clarification and justification.

      We propose to revise the “discussion” section taking into account the issues raised by the reviewer and highlight the potential role of cfChPs in evolution by acting as vehicles of transposable elements.  

      In summary, this study presents important new findings on the behavior of cfChPs when introduced into a foreign cellular context. However, it overextends its evolutionary interpretations, often in an unclear and speculative manner. The concept of the "predatory genome" should be better defined and justified or removed altogether. Conversely, the suggestion that cfChPs may function at the level of transposable elements (rather than the entire genome or organism) could be given more emphasis.

      Our responses to this paragraph are given in the two above sections.

    1. Author response:

      We thank the reviewers for their careful readings of our paper and their very positive assessment. Here we address the two major concerns they raised, referring to the revised version of the manuscript that will be submitted:

      (1) Important points were raised regarding the brief elongation events we reported. The time resolution and noise in our system reduce the accuracy of the burst velocity measurements. To address this, we have reached out to a colleague who is set up to repeat these measurements with microfluidics-assisted TIRF. The noise should be greatly reduced and the system is also optimal for directly visualizing labeled FHOD3, as suggested. We hope this experimental approach will provide new insights.

      In the meantime, we analyzed our data more closely. We were asked about the pauses we observe before bursts of elongation and how we know they are functionally relevant. The short answer is that we do not know. We reported them because they were so common:  in three independent experiments with wild type FHOD3L-CT we analyzed a total of 20 filaments. We detected 112 dim regions and 97 of these were pause/burst events (~87%). Among the cases lacking a pause we include instances of apparent "double bursts" with no time for capping in between (which may be a time resolution issue) and some cases where the burst was in progress when data collection started. In the latter case, we cannot determine whether or not a pause was missed. We cannot rule out that this pause reflects an interaction with the surface but might expect the frequency to be lower if it were. In fact, we did detect pauses in the profilin-actin negative control but only 4 pauses were detected across 21 filaments analyzed compared to 97 pauses observed in the presence of wild type FHOD3L across 20 filaments analyzed. We will revise the text to make our conclusions about pauses more circumspect.

      For comparison to our current data, we further analyzed the filaments in TIRF assays with no formin present. As the reviewers point out, inhomogeneities in filament intensity are normal. Thus, we examined any dim spots for pauses and/or bursts. We will report (future Figure 2G) that the velocity of growth of these dim spots was the same as the velocity of the rest of the filament. While our numbers may not be perfectly accurate due to the noise in our system, the difference of 3-4 fold increase versus no detectable change in rate is substantial and statistically different. In addition, we determined the number of dim spots per length of filament. We found a higher frequency of dim spots when FHOD3L-CT or FHOD3S-CT was present vs no formin, as will be shown in Figure 2 – figure supplement 1G and 2D.

      We are convinced that the brief dim events we observed in the presence of FHOD3L-CT do, in fact, reflect formin-mediated elongation and hope that the reviewers concur. This does not preclude our interest in the microfluidics and two-color assays, which we will pursue in the future.

      (2) The reviewers were concerned about the low protein levels in the GS-FH1 rescue experiments as reflected in the HA fluorescence intensity distributions shown in Fig. 5 – figure supplement 2A. While the scenario proposed could explain our observations with the GSFH1 rescues, it is quite complex and does not preclude the conclusion that the FH1 domain is critical. One limit of this scenario would be that the protein levels in the GS-FH1 cells reflect completely inactive protein, as opposed to FHOD3L that cannot elongate (by design). Given that the C-terminal half of the protein folds and functions and that the changes are made within an intrinsically disordered region, we do not favor this model. The reviewers suggest that the mutant protein detected in the few cells with (probably residual) sarcomeres could be stabilized, in part or entirely, by heterodimerization with residual endogenous wild type protein. We agree that heterodimerization is possible. The question becomes, how active is a heterodimer? If heterodimers have any activity, it seems far from sufficient to rescue sarcomere formation, suggesting that two functional FH1 domains are critical. To confirm this possibility, we would have to be able to determine whether the few sarcomeres present in these cases are residual and/or the new sarcomeres the low level of heterodimers could make. That said, we do not see evidence of correlation between protein levels and rescue at the level present in these cells (addressed below). Unfortunately, the proposed IP to test whether FHOD3L binds actin in vivo would only potentially report on filament side binding (both direct and indirect). It would not address whether the GS-FH1 mutant functions as a nucleator, elongator, bundler and/or capping protein in vivo.

      If we assume that the protein present is active, the critical question that we can address is whether the phenotype is due to low protein levels or if the phenotype is due to loss of elongation activity by FHOD3L. To address this question, we revisited our data.

      First, we plotted the distributions of the intensities of the cells we analyzed further, in addition to the automated readout of all the cells in the dish we originally presented (e.g. Fig. 4 – figure supplement 2A,B). These cells were selected randomly and, as should be the case, the distributions of their intensities agree well with the original distributions for the three different rescue constructs: FHOD3L, K1193L, and GS-FH1 (Fig. 6 – figure supplement 1A,B). We then asked whether there was any correlation between HA intensities with the sarcomere metrics. Consistent with in our pilot data, no correlation is evident in any of the three cases across the range of intensities we collected (400 – 2700 a.u.) (Fig. 6 – figure supplement 1C,D,E). We were originally satisfied with the GS-FH1 data, despite the low average intensity levels, because the intensities were well within the range that we established in pilot studies. These data reconfirm that the intensity levels are reasonable in a larger study.

      To more specifically address the question of whether low HA fluorescence intensity is likely to reflect sufficient protein levels to build sarcomeres, we re-examined two data sets from the FHOD3L WT rescue data. We found that, by chance, the first replicate of data from the wild type rescue has a comparable intensity distribution to that of the GSFH1 rescues (580 +/- 261 / cell vs. 548 +/- 105 / cell). In addition, we collected all of the data from cells with intensity levels <720, selected to mimic the distribution of the GS-FH1 cells (Fig. 6 – figure supplement 3A). We then compared the sarcomere metrics (sarcomere number, sarcomere length, sarcomere width) between the full data set and the two low intensity subsets using statistical tests as reported for the rest of the cell biology data set:

      · Sarcomere number is the only non-normal metric. We therefore used the Mann Whitney U test for each pairwise comparison, which shows no difference between all 3 WT distributions.

      · We compared Z-line lengths by Student’s two-sample, unpaired t-test for each pairwise comparison, again finding no significant difference for all distributions.

      · Sarcomere length shows a weakly significant difference (p=0.017 (compared to 0.033 for 3 treatment groups based on Bonferroni correction)) between the whole WT data set and bio rep 1, but no difference between the whole WT data set and the HA<720 group via Student’s two-sample, unpaired t-test.

      An alternate statistical analysis approach, one-way ANOVA and Tukey post hoc tests, gave similar results. Thus, cells expressing wild type FHOD3L at levels comparable to levels detected in GS-FH1 mutant rescues, are fully rescued. Based on these findings we conclude that the expression levels in the GS-FH1 are high enough to rescue the FHOD3 knock down, supporting our conclusion that the defect is due to loss of elongation activity. We will add this analysis and discussion to the revised manuscript.

      In future studies we will design less severe mutations to the FH1 domain. We hope to identify one with a strong effect on elongation and another with an intermediate effect. Once the best candidates are characterized in vitro, we will test them in our rescue experiments. If the strong mutant mimics the GS-FH1 rescue and the intermediate mutant is less severe, we will have strengthened our conclusion that elongation is a critical FHOD3L activity in sarcomere formation.

      Additional improvements will be made to the manuscript based on recommendations we received from the reviewers.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This is a potentially interesting study regarding the role of gasdesmin D in experimental psoriasis. The study contains useful data from murine models of skin inflammation, however the main claims (on neutrophil pyroptosis) are incompletely supported in its current form and require additional experimental support to justify the conclusions made.

      We sincerely appreciate the positive assessment regarding the significance of our study, as well as the valuable suggestions provided by the reviewers. We have included new data, further discussions and clarifications in the revised manuscript to adequately address all the concerns raised by the reviewers and better support our conclusions.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Liu, Jiang, Diao et.al. investigated the role of GSDMD in psoriasis-like skin inflammation in mice. The authors have used full-body GSDMD knock-out mice and Gsdm floxed mice crossed with the S100A8- Cre. In both mice, the deficiency of GSDMD ameliorated the skin phenotype induced by the imiquimod. The authors also analyzed RNA sequencing data from the psoriatic patients to show an elevated expression of GSDMD in the psoriatic skin.

      Overall, this is a potentially interesting study, however, the manuscript in its current format is not completely a novel study.

      Strengths:

      It has the potential to unravel the new role of neutrophils.

      Weaknesses:

      The main claims are only partially supported and have scope to improve

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation of the interest and potential of our work. In response to reviewers’ suggestions, we have added new content, including additional data and discussions, to further demonstrate the important role of GSDMD-mediated neutrophil pyroptosis in the pathogenesis of psoriasis, thereby enhancing the completeness of our research.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors describe elevated GSDMD expression in psoriatic skin, and knock-out of GSDMD abrogates psoriasis-like inflammation.

      Strengths:

      The study is well conducted with transgenic mouse models. Using mouse-models with GSDMD knock-out showing abrogating inflammation, as well as GSDMD fl/fl mice without neutrophils having a reduced phenotype.

      I fear that some of the conclusions cannot be drawn by the suggested experiments. My major concern would be the involvement of other inflammasome and GSDMD bearing cell types, esp. Keratinocytes (KC), which could be an explanation why the experiments in Fig 4 still show inflammation.

      Weaknesses:

      The experiments do not entirely support the conclusions towards neutrophils.

      We appreciate the reviewers’ positive evaluation regarding the application of our mouse models. We also thank the reviewers for insightful comments and suggestions that can improve the quality of our work. Addressing these issues has significantly strengthened our conclusions. Our responses to the above questions are as follows.

      Specific questions/comments:

      Fig 1b: mainly in KC and Neutrophils?

      In Figure 1b, we observed that GSDMD expression is higher in the psoriasis patient tissues compared to control samples. As the role of GSDMD in keratinocytes during the pathogenesis of psoriasis has already been explored[1], we focused our study on GSDMD in neutrophils. In response to the comments, we have added co-staining results of the neutrophil marker CD66b and GSDMD in the revised manuscript (see new Figure 3b in the revised manuscript). This addition further substantiates the expression of GSDMD in neutrophils within psoriasis tissue.

      Fig 2a: PASI includes erythema, scaling, thickness and area. Guess area could be trick, esp. in an artificial induced IMQ model (WT) vs. the knock-out mice.

      In our model, to accurately assess the disease condition in mice, we standardized the drug treatment area on the dorsal side (2*3 cm). Therefore, the area was not factored into the scoring process, and we have included a detailed description of this in the revised manuscript.

      Fig 2d: interesting finding. I thought that CASP-1 is cleaving GSDMD. Why would it be downregulated?

      Regarding the downregulation of CASP in GSDMD KO mouse skin tissue, existing studies indicate that GSDMD generates a feed-forward amplification cascade via the mitochondria-STING-Caspase axis [2]. We hypothesize that the absence of GSDMD attenuates STING signaling’s activation of Caspase.

      Line 313: as mentioned before (see Fig 1b). KC also show a stron GSDMD staining positivity and are known producers of IL-1b and inflammasome activation. Guess here the relevance of KC in the whole model needs to be evaluated.

      Our research primarily focuses on the role of neutrophil pyroptosis in psoriasis, this does not conflict with existing reports indicating that KC cell pyroptosis also contributes to disease progression[1]. Both studies underscore the significant role of GSDMD-mediated pyroptotic signaling in psoriasis, and the consistent involvement of KC cells and neutrophils further emphasizes the potential therapeutic value of targeting GSDMD signaling in psoriasis treatment. We have expanded upon this discussion in the revised manuscript.

      Fig 4i - guess here the conclusion would be that neutrophils are important for the pathogenesis in the IMQ model, which is true. This experiment does not support that this is done by pyroptosis.

      To address the question, we analyzed the publicly available single-cell transcriptomic data (GSE165021) and found that, compared to the control group, neutrophils infiltrating in IMQ-induced psoriasis-like tissue display a higher expression of pyroptosis-related genes (see new Figure 3e in the revised manuscript). These results strengthen our conclusions about the role of neutrophil pyroptosis in the progression of psoriasis.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Specific Comments:

      • Figure 1: Micro abscesses would already be dead, which would likely reflect as non-specific staining. Authors should consider double staining (e.g., GSDMD+Ly6G).

      We thank the reviewer for the useful suggestion. We have added co-staining results of the neutrophil marker CD66b and GSDMD in the revised manuscript (see new Figure 3b in the revised manuscript). This addition further substantiates the expression of GSDMD in neutrophils within psoriasis tissue.

      • Figures 1 b, c, and d do not have the n number for representative experiments and images.

      We apologize for our oversight. We have added the relevant information in the revised manuscript and have reviewed and corrected the entire text.

      • What is the difference between psoriasis patients in Figure 1 versus Figure 3 as the staining patterns are different? It is difficult to interpret from Figure 1 that expression is limited to neutrophils. Authors should consider double staining (e.g., GSDMD+Ly6G). How many samples were stained to draw this conclusion?

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. In Figure 1b, we observed that GSDMD expression is higher in the psoriasis patient tissues compared to control samples. We have added co-staining results of the neutrophil marker CD66b and GSDMD in the revised manuscript (see new Figure 3b in the revised manuscript). For each staining group, we examined samples from 3-5 patients to draw the conclusion.

      • Figure 2: GSDMD deficiency mitigates psoriasis-like inflammation in mice has been shown before (PMID#37673869). The paper showed that the GSDMD was mainly expressed in keratinocytes. What is the view of the authors on it and how does this data correlate with the data presented in this manuscript by the authors?

      Consistent with previous studies[1], we observed increased expression of pyroptosis-related proteins in psoriatic lesions. However, our research focused specifically on the role of neutrophil pyroptosis in psoriasis, this does not conflict with existing reports indicating that KC cell pyroptosis also contributes to disease progression. Both studies underscore the significant role of GSDMD-mediated pyroptotic signaling in psoriasis, and the consistent involvement of KC cells and neutrophils further emphasizes the potential therapeutic value of targeting GSDMD signaling in psoriasis treatment. We have expanded upon this discussion in the revised manuscript.

      • Figure 3d: It is unclear if the IF shows an epidermal or dermal area. As shown by authors in other figures (human psoriatic skin), do authors observe more GSDMD in the micro abscess, which is localized in the epidermis? The authors should also show the staining of GSDM/Ly6G in the whole skin sample.

      The region we presented for immunofluorescence staining corresponds to the dermis of the mice, as we did not observe typical neutrophil micro abscesses similar to those in human psoriasis in the epidermis of IMQ-induced classical psoriasis vulgaris (PV) model. Therefore, we have only shown the staining in the dermal area.

      • Figure 3e: PI staining also represents necrotic cells and TUNEL staining would not represent just apoptotic cells. It is unclear how the authors conclude an ongoing pyroptosis in neutrophils. A robust dataset is needed to provide evidence supporting neutrophil pyroptosis in the IMQ-challenged mice.

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable suggestion. GSDMD is the effector protein of pyroptosis. To further confirm that cells are undergoing pyroptosis, it is necessary to morphologically stain the GSDMD N-terminal protein. Although there is currently no GSDMD N-terminal fluorescent antibody available, we detected the cleaved N-terminus of GSDMD by WB in mouse psoriasis-like skin tissue, and its increased expression suggested increased cell pyroptosis (see new Figure 1d in the revised manuscript). Moreover, we analyzed the publicly available single-cell transcriptomic data (GSE165021) and found that, compared to the control group, neutrophils infiltrating in IMQ-induced psoriasis-like tissue display a higher expression of pyroptosis-related genes (see new Figure 3e in the revised manuscript). These results strengthen our conclusions about the role of neutrophil pyroptosis in the progression of psoriasis.

      • Figure 4: The authors did not clarify the reason for choosing D4 over the usual D7 for the imiquimod experiment. S100A8-Cre is also reported in monocytes and granulocytes/monocyte progenitors. And, the authors also show the expression in macrophages and neutrophils, but in the text, only neutrophils are mentioned. The authors should state the results in the text as well to avoid misrepresentation of the data.

      We thank the reviewer for the useful suggestion. We have repeated many times of experiments in our previous studies and observed that the IMQ-induced mouse psoriasis model showed the obvious signs of self-resolution after Day 4 even with continuing topical IMQ application, thus we chose 4 days over 7 days for the imiquimod experiment, which are consistent with many other studies[3, 4].

      Many studies use S100A8-Cre mice for neutrophil-specific gene knockout[5, 6]. Moreover, we used Ly6G antibody to eliminate neutrophils in GSDMD-cKO mice and control mice. It was found that the difference in lesions between the two groups was abolished after neutrophil depletion, indicating that neutrophil pyroptosis plays an important role in the pathogenesis of imiquimod-induced psoriasis-like lesions in mice. As the database analysis results showed that macrophages have slight expression of S100a8, according to the suggestion of the reviewer, we have added a more precise description in the revised manuscript.

      • Figure S2a: Ly6G antibody reduced the ly6G positive, but also negative cells compared to PBS. If this is correct, what is the explanation, and how this observation has been considered for concluding results?

      Neutrophils play an important role in regulating inflammatory responses, and their deletion can reduce the overall inflammatory level in the body, which also results in a decrease in other non-neutrophil cells. However, this change does not affect our conclusions. Our results show that after the deletion of neutrophils, there is no difference in the pathological manifestations between the cKO group and the control group. This further that GSDMD in neutrophil plays an important role in the pathogenesis of miquimod-induced psoriasis-like lesions in mice.

      • The conclusion in Figure 4i is incorrect as Ly6G administration had an effect on the wt, so it shows neutrophils play a role, but not neutrophil pyroptosis.

      - 321 "It was found that the difference in lesions between the

      - 321 two groups was abolished after neutrophil depletion (Fig4i, S2a), indicating that

      - 322 neutrophil pyroptosis plays an important role in the pathogenesis of

      - 323 imiquimod-induced psoriasis-like lesions in mice"

      Our results show that after the deletion of neutrophils, there is no difference in the pathological manifestations between the cKO group and the control group. This further indicates that the lower disease scores observed in cKO mice, in the absence of neutrophil deletion, depend on the presence of neutrophils. In the revised manuscript, we have changed the statement to “It was found that the difference in lesions between the two groups was abolished after neutrophil depletion (Fig4i, S2a), indicating that GSDMD in neutrophil plays an important role in the pathogenesis of miquimod-induced psoriasis-like lesions in mice”

      • The effect of LyG Ab: reduced PASI in the wt, but the effect on the ko remains the same. What are the other molecular changes observed? What was the level of neutrophils in the wt and the S1A008Cre GsdmDfl/fl mice under steady state and how are they change upon imiquimod challenge? A complete profiling of the immune cells is needed for all the experiments.

      As demonstrated by the results, the deletion of neutrophils did not significantly alter the pathological phenotype of cKO mice. We believe that this outcome precisely highlights the crucial role of GSDMD in regulating neutrophil inflammatory responses.

      • Figure S2b: The authors conclude that Il-1b in the imiquimod skin is mainly expressed by neutrophils, but the analysis presented in the figure does not support this conclusion. Both neutrophils and macrophages are majorly positive for I1-b, with some expression on Langerhans and fibroblasts. No n numbers are provided for the experiment

      As we discussed in the manuscript, we speculate that neutrophil pyroptosis may release cytokines, which in turn activate other cells to secrete cytokines, forming a complex inflammatory network in psoriasis. This may suggest that neutrophil pyroptosis may be involved in the pathogenesis of psoriasis by affecting the secretion of cytokines such as IL-1B and IL-6 by neutrophils, thereby affecting the function of other immune cells such as T cells and macrophages.

      We have added the n number in the revised manuscript.

      • For clarity and transparency, a list of antibodies with the associate clone and catalogue number should be provided or integrated into the method text.

      We thank the reviewer for the useful suggestion. We have added the associate clone and catalogue number of antibodies used in the method text of revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Fig 3b: psoriasis and pustular psoriasis have a different pathophysiology (autoimmune vs. autoinflammatory). Neutrophils are centrally important for GPP for the cleavage of IL-36. Guess as not further referred to pustular psoriasis in the paper, that comparison is rather deviating from the story.

      In Figure 3b, we stained for GSDMD and CD66b in both plaque psoriasis (PV) and generalized pustular psoriasis (GPP), not to compare the expression differences between the two types of psoriasis, but rather to demonstrate that significant GSDMD expression is present in neutrophils in different types of psoriasis. Unfortunately, due to the lack of a well-established animal model for GPP, we were only able to conduct studies using the established PV animal model. We acknowledge this limitation in our research. In our revised manuscript, we have added the following explanation in the discussion section: “Although we observed significantly increased GSDMD in neutrophils in pustular psoriasis, we were constrained to studying the established PV animal model due to the current absence of a mature GPP animal model. This represents a limitation of our study.”

      In summary, we appreciate the Reviewer’s comments and suggestions. We feel that the inclusion of new data addresses the concerns in a comprehensive manner and adds further support to our original conclusions. We hope you will now consider the revised manuscript worthy of publication in eLife.

      References:

      (1) Lian, N., et al., Gasdermin D-mediated keratinocyte pyroptosis as a key step in psoriasis pathogenesis. Cell Death & Disease, 2023. 14(9): p. 595.

      (2) Han, J., et al., GSDMD (gasdermin D) mediates pathological cardiac hypertrophy and generates a feed-forward amplification cascade via mitochondria-STING (stimulator of interferon genes) axis. Hypertension, 2022. 79(11): p. 2505-2518.

      (3) Lin, H., et al., Forsythoside A alleviates imiquimod-induced psoriasis-like dermatitis in mice by regulating Th17 cells and IL-17a expression. Journal of Personalized Medicine, 2022. 12(1): p. 62.

      (4) Emami, Z., et al., Evaluation of Kynu, Defb2, Camp, and Penk Expression Levels as Psoriasis Marker in the Imiquimod‐Induced Psoriasis Model. Mediators of Inflammation, 2024. 2024(1): p. 5821996.

      (5) Stackowicz, J., et al., Neutrophil-specific gain-of-function mutations in Nlrp3 promote development of cryopyrin-associated periodic syndrome. Journal of Experimental Medicine, 2021. 218(10): p. e20201466.

      (6) Abram, C.L., et al., Distinct roles for neutrophils and dendritic cells in inflammation and autoimmunity in motheaten mice. Immunity, 2013. 38(3): p. 489-501.

    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Fuchs describes a novel method of enzymatic protein-protein conjugation using the enzyme Connectase. The author is able to make this process irreversible by screening different Connectase recognition sites to find an alternative sequence that is also accepted by the enzyme. They are then able to selectively render the byproduct of the reaction inactive, preventing the reverse reaction, and add the desired conjugate with the alternative recognition sequence to achieve near-complete conversion. I agree with the authors that this novel enzymatic protein fusion method has several applications in the field of bioconjugation, ranging from biophysical assay conduction to therapeutic development. Previously the author has published on the discovery of the Connectase enzymes and has shown its utility in tagging proteins and detecting them by in-gel fluorescence. They now extend their work to include the application of Connectase in creating protein-protein fusions, antibody-protein conjugates, and cyclic/polymerized proteins. As mentioned by the author, enzymatic protein conjugation methods can provide several benefits over other non-specific and click chemistry labeling methods. Connectase specifically can provide some benefits over the more widely used Sortase, depending on the nature of the species that is desired to be conjugated. However, due to a similar lengthy sequence between conjugation partners, the method described in this paper does not provide clear benefits over the existing SpyTag-SpyCatcher conjugation system.  Additionally, specific disadvantages of the method described are not thoroughly investigated, such as difficulty in purifying and separating the desired product from the multiple proteins used. Overall, this method provides a novel, reproducible way to enzymatically create protein-protein conjugates.

      The manuscript is well-written and will be of interest to those who are specifically working on chemical protein modifications and bioconjugation.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Unlike previous traditional protein fusion protocols, the author claims their proposed new method is fast, simple, specific, reversible, and results in a complete 1:1 fusion. A multi-disciplinary approach from cloning and purification, biochemical analyses, and proteomic mass spec confirmation revealed fusion products were achieved.

      Strengths:

      The author provides convincing evidence that an alternative to traditional protein fusion synthesis is more efficient with 100% yields using connectase. The author optimized the protocol's efficiency with assays replacing a single amino acid and identification of a proline aminopeptidase, Bacilius coagulans (BcPAP), as a usable enzyme to use in the fusion reaction. Multiple examples including Ubiquitin, GST, and antibody fusion/conjugations reveal how this method can be applied to a diverse range of biological processes.

      Weaknesses:

      Though the ~100% ligation efficiency is an advancement, the long recognition linker may be the biggest drawback. For large native proteins that are challenging/cannot be synthesized and require multiple connectase ligation reactions to yield a complete continuous product, the multiple interruptions with long linkers will likely interfere with protein folding, resulting in non-native protein structures. This method will be a good alternative to traditional approaches as the author mentioned but limited to generating epitope/peptide/protein tagged proteins, and not for synthetic protein biology aimed at examining native/endogenous protein function in vitro.

      I would like to sincerely thank both reviewers for their insightful and constructive feedback on the manuscript. I have addressed reviewer #1’s comments below:

      (1) The benefits over the SpyTag-SpyCatcher system. Here, the conjugation partners are fused via the 12.3 kDa SpyCatcher protein, which is considerably larger than the Connectase fusion sequence (20 aa). This is briefly mentioned in the introduction (p. 1 ln 24-25). In a related technology, the SpyTag-SpyCatcher system was split into three components, SpyLigase, SpyTag and KTag  (Fierer et al., PNAS 2014). The resulting method introduces a sequence between the fusion partners (SpyTag (13aa) + KTag (10aa)), which is similar in length to the Connectase fusion sequence. I mention this method in the discussion (p. 8, ln 296 - 297), but preferred not to comment on its efficiency. It appears to require more enzyme and longer incubation times, while yielding less fusion product (Fierer et al., Figure 2).

      (2) Purification of the fusion product. The method is actually advantageous in this respect, as described in the discussion (p. 8, ln 257-263). I plan to add a figure showing an example in the revised article.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      This study presents useful insights into the in vivo dynamics of insulin-producing cells (IPCs), key cells regulating energy homeostasis across the animal kingdom. The authors provide compelling evidence using adult Drosophila melanogaster that IPCs, unlike neighboring DH44 cells, do not respond to glucose directly, but that glucose can indirectly regulate IPC activity after ingestion supporting an incretin-like mechanism in flies, similar to mammals. The authors link the decreased activity of IPCs to hyperactivity observed in starved flies, a locomotive behavior aimed at increasing food search. 

      Furthermore, there is supporting evidence in the paper that IPCs receive inhibitory inputs from Dh44 neurons, which are linked to increased locomotor activity. However, although the electrophysiological data underlying the dynamics of IPCs in vivo is compelling, the link between IPCs and other potential elements of the circuitry (e.g. octopaminergic neurons) regulating locomotive behaviors is not clear and would benefit from more rigorous approaches. 

      This paper is of interest to cell biologists and electrophysiologists, and in particular to scientists aiming to understand circuit dynamics pertaining to internal state-linked behaviors competing with the feeding state, shown here to be primarily controlled by the IPCs. 

      Strengths: 

      (1) By using whole-cell patch clamp recording, the authors convincingly showed the activity pattern of IPCs and neighboring DH44 neurons under different feeding states. 

      (2) The paper provides compelling evidence that IPCs are not directly and acutely activated by glucose, but rather through a post-ingestive incretin-like mechanism. In addition, the authors show that Dh44 neurons located adjacent to the IPCs respond to bath application of glucose contrary to the IPCs. 

      (3) The paper provides useful data on the firing pattern of 2 key cell populations regulating foodrelated brain function and behavior, IPCs and Dh44 neurons, results which are useful to understand their in vivo function. 

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) The term nutritional state generally refers to the nutrients which are beneficial to the animal. In Figure 1, the authors showed that IPCs respond to glucose but not proteins. To validate the term nutritional state the authors could test the effect of a non-nutritive sugar (e.g. D-arabinose or L-Glucose) on the post-ingestive physiological responses of the IPCs.

      We thank the referee for this insightful comment. Following their suggestion, we included two new experimental data sets, which we added to Figure 1: We show that IPCs do not respond to the non-nutritive sugar D-arabinose (Figure 1H). In order to further expand this data set and our conclusions, we additionally show that IPCs do respond to fructose – a second nutritive sugar in addition to glucose (Figure 1H). Together, these data sets permit the conclusion that IPCs are sensitive to the ingestion of nutritive sugars, and do not respond to ingestion of nonnutritive sugars or high protein diets. Thus, we validate the term nutritional state.

      (2) It is difficult to grasp the main message from the figures in the result section as some figures have several results subsections referring to different points the authors want to make. The key results of a figure will be easier to understand if they are summarized in one section of the results. Alternatively, a figure can be split into 2 figures if there are several key messages in those figures, e.g. Figures 2 and 3.  

      We appreciate this suggestion and have made several changes to our manuscript to add more clarity. Among other things, we have changed the order of data presentation in Figure 2, as suggested by the referee below, where we now start with the IPC activation data rather than the OAN activation. We also swapped the order of data presentation and split Figure S1 into Figures S1 & S2. Moreover, we re-arranged the panel order in supplementary figure S4. This significantly improved the flow of the results section. Since the figures the referee refers to contain comparative data, for example between diets (Figure 1) or neuron types (Figure 2), we prefer to keep these data sets together. However, we have carefully revised the results section to more clearly relate our statements to individual figure panels.

      (3) The prime investigation of the paper is about the physiological response and locomotive behavioral readout linked to IPCs. The authors do not show a link between OANs and IPCs in terms of functional or behavioral readouts. In Figure 2 the authors first start with stating a link between OAN neurons and locomotion changes resulting from internal feeding states. The flow of the paper would be better if the authors focused on the effect of optogenetic activation of IPCs under different feeding states and their impact on fly locomotion. If the experiments done on optogenetic activation of OANs were to validate the experimental approach the data on OAN neurons is better suited for the supplement without the need of a subsection in the result section on the OANs.  

      We agree with the reviewer’s suggestion and switched the order of the figure panels and text to aid the flow of the manuscript. We now show and discuss the IPC activation data first (Figure 2C-H) and OAN activation afterwards (Figure 2I-K). We did keep the OAN data in the main document, though, since that facilitates comparisons between the small effects of IPC activation and the large, well-established effects of OAN activation.

      (4) Figure 2F shows that optogenetic activation of IPCs in fed flies does not influence their locomotor output. In the text, the conclusion linked to Figure 2F-H states that IPC activation reduces starvation-induced hyperactivity which is a statement more suited to Figure 2I-K. 

      We edited the text accordingly.

      (5) The authors show activation of Dh44 neurons leads to hyperpolarisation of the IPCs. What is the functional link between non-PI Dh44 neurons and the IPCs? Do IPCs express DH44R or is DH44 required for this effect on IPCs? Investigating a potential synaptic or peptidergic link between DH44 neurons and IPCs and its effect on behavior would benefit the paper, as it is so far not well connected. 

      Although we have not performed any experiments dedicated to investigating the functional link between DH44Ns outside the PI and the IPCs in this study, there are two lines of evidence supporting that this connection is relatively direct. First, IPCs do express DH44R1 & R2, as we show in a parallel study in eLife (Held M, et al. ‘Aminergic and peptidergic modulation of Insulin-Producing Cells in Drosophila’. eLife. 2024;13. doi:10.7554/ELIFE.99548.1). Second, we performed functional connectivity experiments using a Leucokinin (LK) driver line in that paper. This driver line labels two pairs of non-PI DH44Ns in the VNC, which are DH44 and LK positive (Zandawala et al 2018). Activating that line leads to inhibition of IPCs, similar to the effect we observed here for DH44N activation. These two lines of evidence suggest that there could be a direct peptidergic connection between DH44+ neurons and IPCs. We have added a paragraph mentioning these experiments to our discussion:

      ‘Notably, the DH44<sup>PI</sup>Ns express the DH44 peptide, as confirmed by anti-DH44 stainings(100). This also applies to a large fraction of neurons labelled in the broad DH44 driver line(100). However, a subset of neurons labelled in the broad line did not exhibit DH44 immunoreactivity(100), and might therefore not actually express the DH44 peptide. Hence, the inhibition of IPCs could be driven by neurons in the DH44 driver line that do not express DH44. A strong candidate for the inhibition are LK and DH44-positive neurons, which are labelled by the broad line(76). In a parallel study, we showed that LK-expressing neurons strongly inhibit IPCs(30), similar to the broad DH44 line used here. Furthermore, evidence from single-nucleus transcriptomic analysis shows that IPCs express DH44-R1 and DH44-R2 receptors(30). Therefore, it is possible that DH44Ns communicate with IPCs through a direct peptidergic connection. Notably, the inhibitory effect of non-PI DH44Ns on IPCs was very strong and fast, suggesting that a connection via classical synapses is more likely. Regardless, our results show that the glucose sensing DH44<sup>PI</sup>Ns and IPCs act independently of each other.’

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      In this study, Bisen et al. characterized the state-dependency of insulin-producing cells in the brain of *Drosophila melanogaster*. They successfully established that IPC activity is modulated by the nutritional state and age of the animal. Interestingly, they demonstrate that IPCs respond to the ingestion of glucose, rather than to perfusion with it, an observation reminiscent of the incretin effect in mammals. The study is well conducted and presented and the experimental data convincingly support the claims made. 

      Strengths: 

      The study makes great use of the tools available in *Drosophila* research, demonstrating the effect that starvation and subsequent refeeding have on the physiological activity of IPCs as well as on the behavior of flies to then establish causal links by making use of optogenetic tools. 

      It is particularly nice to see how the authors put their findings in context to published research and use for example TDC2 neuron activation or DH44 activity to establish baselines to relate their data to. 

      Weaknesses: 

      I find the inability of SD to rescue the IPC starvation effect in Figure 1G&H surprising, given that the fully fed flies were raised and kept on that exact diet. Did the authors try to refeed flies with SD for longer than 24 hours? I understand that at some point the age effect would also kick in and counteract potential IPC activity rescue. I think the manuscript would benefit if the authors could indicate the exact age of the SD refed flies and expand a bit on the discussion of that point.  

      We have expanded the first paragraph of our discussion to tackle these questions, in particular the potential effect of aging, as suggested by the referee. We now also indicate the exact age of the flies. Moreover, we have conducted additional experiments in which we added either glucose or arabinose to our standard diet (Figure 1H). As we would have expected based on our hypothesis that the glucose concentration in our standard diet was too low to cause an increase in IPC activity after starvation, we find that feeding standard diet plus glucose increases IPC activity to the same level as glucose only, and that adding arabinose to the standard diet does not lead to increased IPC activity after starvation (Figure 1H).

      The incretin-like effect is exciting and it will be interesting in the future to find out what might be the signal mediating this effect. It is interesting that IPCs in explants seem to be responsive to glucose. I think it would help if the authors could briefly discuss possible sources for the different findings between these in fact very different preparations. Could the the absence of the inhibitory DH44 feedback in the *ex-vivo* recordings for example play a role? 

      We thank the referee for this interesting point and expanded our discussion accordingly. We included that, in particular in brain explants without a VNC, the inhibitory connection we describe might be absent, as the referee suggested: ‘Previous ex vivo studies suggested that IPCs, like pancreatic beta cells, sense glucose cell-autonomously(23,24). Consistent with this, we observed an increase in IPC activity after the ingestion of glucose (Figure 2B). However, IPC activity did not increase during the perfusion of glucose directly over the brain. Importantly, the fly preparations were kept alive for several hours allowing the glucose-rich saline to enter circulation and reach all body parts. Several factors may explain the difference between ex vivo and in vivo preparations. First, in ex vivo studies, certain regulatory feedback mechanisms present in vivo could be absent. For example, the strong inhibitory input IPCs receive from DH44Ns we found would likely be absent in brain explants without a VNC. A lack of inhibitory feedback might allow for more direct glucose sensing by IPCs ex vivo, whereas in vivo, the IPC response could be suppressed by more complex systemic feedback. Second, we attempted to use the intracellular saline formulation employed in a previous ex vivo study44. However, we observed that IPCs depolarized quickly using this saline, leading to unstable recordings that did not meet our quality standards for in vivo experiments. Another possible explanation for the lack of an effect of glucose might have been that the dominant circulating sugar in flies is trehalose(70,71) which is derived from glucose. When we extended our experiments, we found that trehalose perfusion did not affect IPC activity either, strengthening the idea that IPCs do not directly sense changes in hemolymph sugar levels. Therefore, our findings suggest that, similar to mammals, IPC activity and hence, insulin release, is not simply modulated by hemolymph sugar concentration in Drosophila.’ 

      The incretin-like effect the authors observed seems to start only after 5h which seems longer than in mammals where, as far as I know, insulin peaks around 1h. Do the authors have ideas on how this timescale relates to ingestion and glucose dynamics in flies? 

      We have now included the following section in the discussion to explicitly address the question of different activity dynamics in flies and mammals, but also the limitations of our electrophysiological approach in this regard: ‘We observed that IPC activity increased over a timescale of hours, which is longer compared to the fast insulin response in mammals, where insulin typically peaks within an hour of feeding(97). In flies, insulin levels rise within minutes of refeeding, followed by a drop after 30 min(20). Our experimental techniques limit our ability to capture these fast initial dynamics, since the preparation for intracellular recordings requires tens of minutes, so that we typically recorded IPC activity at least 20 min after the last food ingestion. Notably, studies in fasted mammals have shown that insulin peaks within minutes of refeeding, followed by a rapid decline, with levels stabilizing as feeding continues(98,99). We speculate a similar dynamic could be present in flies, but with our approach, we capture the steady-state reached tens of minutes after food ingestion rather than a potential initial peak.’ 

      The authors mention "a decrease in the FV of IPC-activated starved flies even before the first optogenetic stimulation (Figure 2I),". Could this be addressed by running an experiment in darkness, only using the IR illumination of their behavioral assay? 

      We thank the referee for pointing out this unexpected result. We discuss this in more detail in the new version of our manuscript and expand on the reasons for not performing these optogenetic activation experiments in the dark: First, the red LED required to activate CsChrimson triggers strong startle responses in dark-adapted flies, which mask other behavioral effects, in particular subtle ones such as those observed for IPCs. The startle response is much reduced when performing experiments under low background light conditions. Second, flies, at least in our hands, do not exhibit robust foraging behavior or starvation-induced hyperactivity in the dark, which is critical for our behavioral experiments. However, we also explain in our discussion that we believe the effect of background illumination is relatively small, since flies expressing CsChrimson in OANs or DH44Ns show comparable activity levels to controls. Hence, a part of this effect is likely attributable to leak currents induced by CsChrimson expression. We would like to point out though that we are careful in our description of the IPC effect on behavior, and focus on the fact that it is considerably smaller than the effects of other modulatory neurons (DH44Ns and OANs).

      The authors show an inhibitory effect of DH44 neuron activation on IPC activity. They further demonstrate that DH44PI neurons are not the ones driving this and thus conclude that "...IPCs are inhibited by DH44Ns outside the PI.". As the authors mentioned the broad expression of the DH44-Gal4 line, can they be sure that the cells labeled outside the PI are actually DH44+? If so they should state this more clearly, if not they should adapt the discussion accordingly.   

      We have substantially added to our discussion of this point, according to the referee’s great suggestion. In short, the broad line includes neurons that are DH44 positive and neurons that are not: ‘Notably, the DH44<sup>PI</sup>Ns express the DH44 peptide, as confirmed by anti-DH44 stainings(100). This also applies to a large fraction of neurons labelled in the broad DH44 driver line(100). However, a subset of neurons labelled in the broad line did not exhibit DH44 immunoreactivity(100), and might therefore not actually express the DH44 peptide. Hence, the inhibition of IPCs could be driven by neurons in the DH44 driver line that do not express DH44.’

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Although insulin release is essential in the control of metabolism, adjusted to nutritional state, and plays major roles in normal brain function as well as in aging and disease, our knowledge about the activity of insulin-producing (and releasing) cells (IPCs) in vivo is limited. 

      In this technically demanding study, IPC activity is studied in the Drosophila model system by fine in vivo patch clamp recordings with parallel behavioral analyses and optogenetic manipulation. 

      The data indicate that IPC activity is increased with a slow time course after feeding a high-glucose diet. By contrast, IPC activity is not directly affected by increasing blood glucose levels. This is reminiscent of the incretin effect known from vertebrates and points to a conserved mechanism in insulin production and release upon sugar feeding. 

      Moreover, the data confirm earlier studies that nutritional state strongly affects locomotion. Surprisingly, IPC activity makes only a negligible contribution to this. Instead, other modulatory neurons that are directly sensitive to blood glucose levels strongly affect modulation. Together, these data indicate a network of multiple parallel and interacting neuronal layers to orchestrate the physiological, metabolic, and behavioral responses to nutritional state. Together with the data from a previous study, this work sets the stage to dissect the architecture and function of this network. 

      Strengths: 

      State-of-the-art current clamp in situ patch clamp recordings in behaving animals are a demanding but powerful method to provide novel insight into the interplay of nutritional state, IPC activity, and locomotion. The patch clamp recordings and the parallel behavioral analyses are of high quality, as are the optogenetic manipulations. The data showing that starvation silences IPC activity in young flies (younger than 1 week) are compelling. The evidence for the claim that locomotor activity is not increased upon IPC activity but upon the activity of other blood glucose-sensitive modulatory neurons (Dh44) is strong. The study provides a great system to experimentally dissect the interplay of insulin production and release with metabolism, physiology, and behavior. 

      Weaknesses: 

      Neither the mechanisms underlying the incretin effect, nor the network to orchestrate physiological, metabolic, and behavioral responses to nutritional state have been fully uncovered. Without additional controls, some of the conclusions would require significant downtoning. Controls are required to exclude the possibility that IPCs sense other blood sugars than glucose. The claim that IPC activity is controlled by the nutritional state would require that starvation-induced IPC silencing in young animals can be recovered by feeding a normal diet. At current firing in starvation, silenced IPCs can only be induced by feeding a high-glucose diet that lacks other important ingredients and reduces vitality. Therefore, feasible controls are needed to exclude that diet-induced increases in IPC firing rate are caused by stress rather than nutritional changes in normal ranges. The finding that refeeding starved flies with a standard diet had no effect on IPC activity but a strong effect on the locomotor activity of starved flies contradicts the statement that locomotor activity is affected by the same dietary manipulations that affect IPC activity. The compelling finding that starvation induces IPC firing would benefit from determining the time course of the effect. The finding that IPCs are not active in fed animals older than 1 week is surprising and should be further validated. 

      We thank the referee for the thoughtful and constructive criticism of our experiments and conclusions. Below, we lay out how we tackled the individual points raised by the referee.

      (1) ‘Controls are required to exclude the possibility that IPCs sense other blood sugars than glucose.’  

      To address this point, we conducted experiments in which we perfused trehalose (Figure 3B), the main circulating hemolymph sugar in Drosophila and other insects. Our results clearly show that trehalose does not affect IPC activity upon perfusion, confirming our statements that IPCs do not sense key blood sugars directly.

      (2) ‘Feasible controls are needed to exclude that diet-induced increases in IPC firing rate are caused by stress rather than nutritional changes in normal ranges’. 

      We agree with the referee that this point was not completely fleshed out in our first submission. We have now performed additional experiments in which we added glucose (and fructose) to our standard diet (Figure 1H). Flies feeding on this diet received all necessary nutrients but still experienced high concentrations of sugars. The effects of high glucose in a standard diet background were indistinguishable from those of high glucose in agarose, confirming that the IPCs respond to sugar rather than stress. Another important observation in this context is that IPCs in flies kept on a high protein diet exhibited much lower spike rates than flies exhibiting the high glucose diet, even though they had a much shorter lifespan and therefore, presumably, experienced much higher stress levels (Figure 1H, Figure S1). These observations underline that stress is certainly not the primary factor here.

      (3) ‘The finding that refeeding starved flies with a standard diet had no effect on IPC activity but a strong effect on the locomotor activity of starved flies contradicts the statement that locomotor activity is affected by the same dietary manipulations that affect IPC activity.’

      We have revised the respective section of the results and discussion accordingly and are more careful and clearer in our interpretation of this behavioral dataset: ‘These results show that the locomotor activity was affected by the same dietary manipulations that had strong effects on IPC activity. However, IPC activity changes alone cannot explain the modulation of starvation-induced hyperactivity. On the one hand, high-glucose diets which drove the highest activity in IPCs were not sufficient to reduce locomotor activity back to baseline levels. On the other hand, refeeding flies with SD did not revert the effects of starvation on IPC activity (Figure 1H), but it was sufficient to reduce the locomotor activity below baseline levels (Figure 2B). This suggests that the modulation of starvation-induced hyperactivity is achieved by multiple modulatory systems acting in parallel.’

      (4) ‘The compelling finding that starvation induces IPC firing would benefit from determining the time course of the effect.’

      We followed the referee’s excellent suggestion and determined the time course of the starvation effect in three timesteps, similar to the experiments we did for refeeding (Figure 1G). In addition, we now also quantify the number of active IPCs (i.e., IPCs that fired at least one action potential during our five-minute analysis window), which further illustrates the dynamics of the starvation and refeeding effects. We find that the starvation effect is graded, and that IPC activity decreases with increasing starvation duration.

      (5) ‘The finding that IPCs are not active in fed animals older than 1 week is surprising and should be further validated.’

      To address the referee’s comment, we have added 14 new IPC recordings from flies in the 6–26-day range, such that we now have recordings from 9-14 IPCs for each age range (Figure S2B). They confirmed our previous analysis and strengthened the finding that IPC activity dramatically decreases after 8 days (on our standard diet). The total number of IPCs in this supplementary dataset was thus increased from 34 to 48.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      (1) Do IPCs respond to glucose specifically after ingestion or generally to any other nutritive sugars? To tackle this question the IPC responses in starved flies can be recorded after refeeding flies with other nutritive sugars (fructose, sucrose). 

      To address this important question, we have performed additional experiments in which we refed starved flies with fructose, as a nutritive sugar, and arabinose, as a non-nutritive sugar. As expected, IPCs responded to fructose but not arabinose and hence nutritive sugars in general. We describe and discuss these key results in the new version of our manuscript.

      (2) In Figure 2, the x and y axes are not annotated on all subfigures, which might help improve clarity. 

      We have annotated the subfigures as requested.

      (3) In the discussion on page 9 ("...we observed an increase in IPC activity after the ingestion of glucose (Figure 2B)."), the authors refer to Figure 2B instead of 3C.

      We have fixed this oversight.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Introduction 

      I think it could be helpful for the reader if you would briefly state the number of IPCs and whether you are targeting all of them with Dilp2-Gal4. 

      We included the numbers according to the suggestion. 14 IPCs are labeled in the driver line, and this is the number of IPCs commonly assumed to be present in the PI.

      Figures 

      In some Figures (for example 1D & E) the authors state the number of IPCs recorded (N) but not the number of animals used (n). This should be stated as the data from within an animal are dependent and might give insights about IPC heterogeneity. 

      We have compiled tables for the supplementary material (Tables S5 & S6) in which we state the number of IPCs and DH44<sup>PI</sup>Ns recorded and the number of different flies for each figure panel. We have recorded an average of 1.4 IPCs per fly (217 IPCs from 160 flies). We therefore expect the bias introduced by individual flies to be rather small. However, in our parallel study, we specifically investigate the heterogeneity of IPCs by maximizing the number of IPCs recorded per fly (Held M, et al. ‘Aminergic and peptidergic modulation of Insulin-Producing Cells in Drosophila’. eLife. 2024;13. doi:10.7554/ELIFE.99548.1). In the case of DH44PINs, we recorded 24 neurons in 21 flies – 1.1 neurons per fly.

      - Figure 3D: There is some white visible among the cell bodies in the overlay. I assume this comes from projecting across layers rather than indicating DH44 - IPC overlap? It would help to explicitly state that. 

      We have added a statement to the results section, in which we explain that most of the white is due to overlap in the z-projection rather than overlap in the driver lines. However, there are few cases (typically one to two cells per brain), in which neurons labeled by the DH44 line also stain positive for Dilp2, indicating they express both neuropeptides. We have added this information to the manuscript:  

      Results: ‘DH44<sup>PI</sup>Ns are anatomically similar to IPCs, and their cell bodies are located directly adjacent to those of IPCs in the PI, making them an ideal positive control for our experiments (Figure 3D). A small subset of DH44<sup>PI</sup>Ns also expresses Dilp2(75), and our immunostainings confirmed colocalization of Dilp2 and DH44 in a single neuron (Figure 3D, white arrow).’

      In figure caption: ‘UAS-myr-GFP was expressed under a DH44-GAL4 driver to label DH44 neurons. GFP was enhanced with anti-GFP (green), brain neuropils were stained with anti-nc82 (cyan), and IPCs were labelled using a Dilp2 antibody (magenta). White arrow indicates Dilp2 and DH44-GAL4 positive neuron. The other white regions in the image result from an overlap in z-projections between the two channels, rather than from antibody colocalization.’

      - Figure 4I: One might get the impression that the fast onset peak of activity precedes the stimulation onset, using a thinner line width might help avoid that. 

      This effect is due to a combination of using relatively heavy lines for clear visibility of the data and a gentle smoothing step (a 2s median filter, which corresponds to less than 1% of the 300s stimulation window) in our analysis of the behavioral data. However, inspection of the raw data clearly shows increases in velocity after the onset of the optogenetic activation. We clarified this in the figure caption: ‘Average FV across all DH44N activation trials based on two independent replications of the experiment in I. Note that the peak in average FV lies within the first frame of the stimulation window.’

      - S3 panel letters do not match references in the text.

      We fixed this oversight.

      Formatting 

      - Page 10: The paragraphs on the bottom of the page got switched around.

      This has been fixed.

      - Page 14: The first paragraph after the header "Free-walking assay" seems to be coming from elsewhere. 

      We apologize for this slightly embarrassing mistake. We used our related bioRxiv preprint (Held et al.) as a template for formatting this paper, and accidentally left this part of the methods section in the manuscript. We have fixed this error in our resubmission.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Major suggestions: 

      (1) The data show convincingly that IPC activity is decreased by starvation during the first week of adult life (Figures 1C and D). However, the conclusion that IPC activity is controlled by the nutritional state requires additional care. First, refeeding starved adult animals with a normal diet does not bring back normal IPC firing rates (Figure 1H). Therefore, IPC activity does not strictly follow changes in nutritional state, but IPCs are silenced by starvation. Second, from the second week of adult life on, IPCs are silent anyway, and thus unlikely responsive to changes in the nutritional state anymore (which might be different on a different standard diet?) The only effect of feeding on IPC activity is observed upon feeding starved, young animals with high glucose for 12-24 hrs (Figure 1G). However, it is not clear whether increased IPC firing is caused by the effects of high glucose on the nutritional state in a normal range, or because of diet-induced stress (the diet also severely shortens lifespan, Figure 1S). Does high glucose also increase IPC firing rate in young, fed animals? These would have strongly increased glucose concentrations but not suffer the stress of not getting any other nutrients. Such experiments would be required to make the statement that glucose feeding increases IPC firing rate. 

      We have performed several experiments to address this criticism. First, we performed a time course analysis of the starvation effect. We show that the IPC activity reduction is graded, and that IPC activity declines already after two hours of starvation, a timepoint at which stress levels should still be relatively small (Figure 1G). Second, we refed flies with high glucose concentrations added to the standard diet (Figure 1H). This minimized any potential stress responses due to a lack in nutrients. Third, we now show that IPCs specifically respond to nutritive (glucose and fructose), but not to non-nutritive sugars (arabinose, Figure 1H). We believe that these data sets, in addition to the graded refeeding effect, make a strong case for the nutritional state dependent modulation of IPCs. 

      (2) The testing of locomotor activity is well done, nicely recapitulates starvation-induced increases in locomotion, and adds interesting novel findings on refeeding with high glucose versus high protein diet. However, the statement that locomotor activity was affected by the same dietary manipulations that had strong effects on IPC activity does not reflect the data presented. Refeeding starved flies with a standard diet had no effect on IPC activity (Figure 1H) but a strong effect on locomotor activity of starved flies (a strong reduction, even stronger than high glucose diet, Figure 2B). 

      We have revised the respective section of the results and discussion accordingly and are more careful and clearer in our interpretation of this behavioral dataset: ‘These results show that the locomotor activity was affected by the same dietary manipulations that had strong effects on IPC activity. However, IPC activity changes alone cannot explain the modulation of starvationinduced hyperactivity. On the one hand, high-glucose diets which drove the highest activity in IPCs were not sufficient to reduce locomotor activity back to baseline levels. On the other hand, refeeding flies with SD did not revert the effects of starvation on IPC activity (Figure 1H), but it was sufficient to reduce the locomotor activity below baseline levels (Figure 2B). This suggests that the modulation of starvation-induced hyperactivity is achieved by multiple modulatory systems acting in parallel.’

      Related to points 1 and 2, a key statement that the results establish that IPC activity is controlled by the nutritional state requires care. What the data convincingly show is that IPC activity is near zero upon starvation. 

      As described above, we have added several extensive data sets (fructose feeding, arabinose feeding, trehalose perfusion, starvation time course) to show that we indeed observe a nutritional state dependent modulation of IPCs and describe these new results in the results and discussion.

      (3) The time course of nutritional state-dependent changes of IPC activity is claimed to be slow, several hours to days. Unless I have missed a figure, the underlying data are not presented (only for high glucose diet). It would be great if this could also be shown for a standard diet with higher glucose concentrations than the one used so that it rescues starvation-induced IPC silencing without shortening lifespan (if this is feasible?). The data showing starvation-induced IPC silencing are convincing, but, unless I have missed it, the time course has not been determined. It would be very nice to actually show this. Have different starvation times been tested in relation to IPC firing rate, and if yes, with what time resolution? Does IPC activity change already after 0.5 or 1 or a few hours of starvation? If starvation can silence IPCs faster than assumed, the nearzero IPC activity in animals older than a week could very well be caused by longer time intervals between meals. 

      We have performed experiments to address both important points raised by the referee here. 1) We have added high glucose concentrations to our standard diet, and show that it has the same effect – a significant increase in IPC activity – as the high glucose diet (Figure 1H). 2) We have analyzed the time course of IPC activity reduction in response to starvation (Figure 1G). Indeed, we find that a few hours of starvation start reducing IPC activity. We discuss the possibility that reduced IPC activity in older flies could be due to reduced food intake: ‘One of our experiments demonstrated that IPC activity was heavily diminished in flies older than 10 days (Figure S2B). A possible explanation could be that flies feed less as they age. However, this only holds true for flies older than 14 days86. Therefore, reduced IPC activity in 10-11 day old flies is unlikely to result from reduced food intake and likely involves inhibition of insulin signaling.’

      (4) The data on the proposed incretin effect are of high importance in potentially highlighting a highly conserved link between glucose ingestion and insulin release. An important control would be to test different sugars, such as trehalose, an important blood sugar of flies. If glucose is converted into trehalose and this is what IPCs sense, then perfusion of glucose has no effect. The fact fantastic experiments show that the DH44 neurons are sensitive to glucose perfusion does rule out that IPCs sense a different sugar. This would be very different from the incretin effect that requires additional hormones. In addition, as mentioned above, controls are required to show that high glucose affects IPCs as a nutrient and not as a stressor (see point 1), for example refeeding with a standard diet that contains a higher glucose concentration but does not reduce lifespan. Another great control to solidify the exciting claim on the incretin effect would be to knock out candidate Drosophila incretin hormones and test whether a high glucose diet stops increasing the IPC firing rate (although simpler controls might also do the job). 

      We have performed the two key experiments suggested by the referee. 1) We perfused trehalose as the primary blood sugar of flies and showed that IPCs do not respond to trehalose perfusion (Figure 3B & C). This further strengthens the finding that IPC activity in flies shows an incretin-like effect. 2) We have added high concentrations of glucose to our standard diet to provide flies with a full diet that contains high glucose concentrations. IPC activity in these flies was indistinguishable from the activity in flies which consumed pure glucose diets. In contrast, IPC activity in flies kept on a high protein diet, which dramatically reduced lifespan, was very low. These results clearly show that higher IPC activity is not due to increased stress levels, but a function of nutritive sugar ingestion. We further validated this hypothesis by refeeding flies with fructose as a nutritive sugar, which increased IPC activity, and arabinose as a non-nutritive sugar, which did not affect IPC activity (Figure 1H).

      Another point that might be relevant to this discussion is that IPC activity is almost entirely shut down during flight in Drosophila (which we showed in Liessem et al. 2023, Current Biology 33 (3), 449-463. e5). Several ‘stress hormones’ are released during flight, including octopamine. The fact that IPC activity is low in flying flies, starved flies, and flies kept on a pure protein diet (which all experience high stress levels), to us, very clearly suggests that stress is not the predominant factor here. We would also like to point out that, while the lifespan was reduced in flies kept on pure glucose diets, survival rates were at 100% until day 14, and we carried out our experiments on day 2 after starvation. Hence, these flies might not (yet) experience particularly high stress levels.

      (5) The discussion relates the absence of IPC firing in animals older than 1 week to aging. However, given that the flies fed on a normal diet show the typical lifespan for Drosophila, a 10-dayold fly is still in its youth. Maybe flies at 10 days eat simply less and thus IPC spiking goes down as in starved flies, especially because the standard diet used contains low glucose. Do IPCs also become silent after a week if the animals are fed with a standard diet that contains a higher glucose concentration? Without additional controls, this part of the discussion is pretty speculative and should be revised. 

      We agree with the reviewer, that it is not clear whether reduced IPC activity is a direct result of physiological changes that occur with aging, or an indirect effect of reduced food intake, which occur during aging. In both cases, in our view, it would be an age-related effect. Since this is a minor point of our manuscript, we decided not to perform additional experiments, other than significantly increasing the sample size for the aging data set already presented to shore up our findings (Figure S2B). We have, however, revisited the discussion of this point according to the referee’s suggestion: ‘One of our experiments demonstrated that IPC activity was heavily diminished in flies older than 10 days (Figure S2B). A possible explanation could be that flies feed less as they age. However, this only holds true for flies older than 14 days(85). Therefore, reduced IPC activity in 10-11 day old flies is unlikely to result from reduced food intake and likely involves inhibition of insulin signaling.’

      Other suggestions: 

      (6) For the mixed effects of octopamine and tyramine on larval locomotion that are referred to, it might be interesting to also look at Schützler et al 2019, PNAS because it shows that starvation activates TBH so that the octopamine to tyramine ratio is increased. 

      We refer to Schützler et al. in the following paragraph of our discussion: ‘This intermittent locomotor arrest has been previously described in adult flies and is thought to be mediated by ventral unpaired median OANs, which have been suggested to suppress long-distance foraging behavior(69). Since these are not the only neurons we activate in the TDC2 line, we speculate that the stopping phenotype could also result from concerted effects of octopamine and tyramine modulating muscle contractions(65-67) and motor neuron excitability(68), as previously described in Drosophila larvae, or from OANs interfering with pattern generating networks in the ventral nerve cord (VNC) during longer activation(69).’  

      (7) The reference list requires care. For example, reference 43 is identical to 67, reference 66 gives no information on incretin-like hormones in Drosophila as stated in the text 

      We carefully double-checked our reference list and corrected the mistakes mentioned.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      I have reviewed, with interest, the manuscript "Psychological stress disturbs bone metabolism via miR-335-3p/Fos signaling in osteoclast". The described findings are relevant and useful for daily practice in periodontology. The paper is concise, professionally written, and easy to read. In this study, Jiayao et al. revealed the role of miR-335-3p in psychological stress-induced osteoporosis. CUMS mice were constructed to observe the femur phenotype, osteoclasts were identified as the primary research object, and miRNA-seq was used to find the key miRNAs linking the brain and peripheral tissues. This study showed that the expression of miR-335-3p was simultaneously reduced in mice's NAC, serum, and bone under psychological stress. The miR-335-3p/Fos/NFATC1 signaling pathway was validated in osteoclasts to reveal the potential mechanism of enhanced osteoclast activity under psychological stress. From a new perspective of miRNAs, this study indicates a possible cause of disturbed bone metabolism due to psychological stress and may suggest a new approach to treating osteoporosis.

      We thank this reviewer for the instructive suggestions and encouragement.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Zhang et al. established chronic unpredictable mild stress (CUMS) mouse model, which displayed osteoporosis phenotype, suggesting a potential correlation between psychological stress and bone metabolism. They found that miRNA candidate miR-335-3p is downregulated in the long bone of CUMS mice through microRNA sequencing and qRT-PCR experiments. They further demonstrated that miR-335-3p attenuates osteoclast activity via inhibiting Fos signaling, which can induce NFATC1 expression and regulate osteoclast activity.

      Strengths:

      The authors established CUMS mouse model and confirmed the osteoporosis phenotype through careful characterization of bone and analysis of osteoclast activity. They performed microRNA sequencing to identify the miRNA candidate regulating the bone loss in the CUMS mouse model. They also validated the expression of miR-335-3p and interfered with the function of miR-335-3p through an in vitro assay. Overall, the findings from this study provide important hints for the correlation between psychological stress and bone metabolism.

      We thank this reviewer for the comprehensive summary and positive comment on our work.

      Weakness:

      The data provided by the authors are preliminary, especially the mechanistic insight, which needs to be enhanced. The authors have shown that miR-335-3p expression was altered in the CUMS mouse model and the change of its expression regulated osteoclast activity. The validation should be conducted in vivo, and the mechanism behind this should be investigated further.

      We thank the reviewer’s important insight on the need for further in vivo validation of the role of miR-335-3p. Therefore, we designed and produced Antagomir-335-3p (antagonist) and Agomir-335-3p (agonist). Then, we injected them into the body through the tail vein for about 2 months and observed the bone phenotype in each group of mice. The results suggested that the decrease of miR-335-3p in vivo could lead to bone loss, which was consistent with our in vitro validation results (Figure 5H-I).

      Reviewing Editor:

      Method

      (1) Bone histomorphometric analysis following ASBMR's guidelines Bone histomorphometric analysis of bone formation and bone resorption: The authors should follow ASBMR's guidelines for bone histomorphometry (PMCID: PMC3672237 and PMID: 3455637) to perform standard analyses of histomorphometry, rather than selected areas. They should also clearly describe a software used and define the areas analyzed.

      We carefully re-analyzed bone histomorphometry according to ASBMR guidelines and combine this with our own understanding. At the same time, we improved the description of micro-CT and histological analysis in the method. If there is still any lack of standardization, we would be grateful for any constructive suggestions to improve this.

      (2) Osteoclast cultures require nuclear staining to demonstrate multinucleated Trap positive cells.

      We used the RAW264.7, a mouse macrophage-like cell line, for in vitro culture and induced its differentiation towards osteoclasts. Successfully induced osteoclasts showed enlarged cytoplasm and multinucleated fusion. Tartrate-resistant acid phosphatase (Trap) is the signature enzyme of osteoclasts. It can bind to the chromogen to exhibit a mauve color, based on the principle of azo-coupled immunohistochemistry. At the same time, small and rounded nuclei fused show a lighter color (author response image 1, yellow arrows). We attempted to stain the nuclei with hematoxylin based on this. However, it was unable to further distinguish the contours of the nuclei clearly due to the similar color to the Trap positive signals. Besides, many other scholars have assessed osteoclast activity in vitro experiments based solely on the results of Trap staining (area and number) (Cheng et al., 2022; Li et al., 2019; Ma et al., 2021; Zhong et al., 2023). Nevertheless, in the immunofluorescence staining of osteoclasts, the nuclei were labeled using a Hochest antibody to reflect the multinucleated fusion of osteoclasts (Figure 5G).  

      (3) Osteoclast pit assays should be carried out to necessarily demonstrate the change of osteoclast resorption ability caused by miR-335-3p.

      We added osteoclast pit assays to validate the role of miR-335-3p on osteoclast resorptive capacity (Figure 5D-E).

      (4) Serum ELISA assay should be done to examine the global change of bone remodeling in the CUMS mice to assess bone formation and bone resorption that will support their claim.

      We performed additional tests on serum concentrations of R-hydroxy glutamic acid protein (BGP), TRAP, Cathepsin K (CTSK), parathyroid hormone (PTH), calcium (CA), phosphate (P) in control and CUMS mice, which could better reflect the global change of bone remodeling in the CUMS mice (Figure 3— figure supplement 1).

      (5) miR-RNA-seq: A labeled volcano plot should be used to replace the present one to show significant changes in differential gene expression.

      We appreciate this great suggestion. We replaced the volcano plot that showed significant changes in differential gene expression (Figure 4B). We also uploaded the raw data to the GEO database (GSE253504), making the results clearer and more accessible.

      Discussion

      The authors should discuss previous works on the influences of hormones from the brain on chronic stress-induced bone loss and an association of these influences with their findings.

      The discussion on the relationship between the bone metabolism regulation of both hormones and miR-335-3p in psychological stress was added in the second and fifth paragraphs of the discussion. To conclude, on the one hand, brain-derived and blood-transported miR-335-3p regulate bone metabolism synergistically. On the other hand, it exerted a more direct influence on bone under psychological stress.

      Language

      The language of the MS should be improved.

      The manuscript has been carefully edited by a professional proofreader.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Figure 1F: The exact meaning of the Waveform Graph shown at left needs to be clarified for the not-so-experienced reader.

      We added the more detailed meaning of the Waveform Graph in figure legends (Figure legend 1F).

      (2) Is the concomitant increase in osteogenic and osteoblastic activity in this study consistent with that seen in similar disease studies? This could be added to the discussion.

      In the fifth paragraph of the discussion section, we present the alterations of osteogenic and osteoblastic activity observed in other studies that are similar to ours. We also had a detailed discussion based on these observations.

      (3) Figure 6A: Please highlight the key information to visualize the potential linkage among miR-335-3p, Fos, and osteoclast.

      We highlighted the crucial linkage among miR-335-3p, Fos, and osteoclast with red arrows (Figure 6A)

      4) Figure 6E: The specific area of the selected comparison needs to be clarified. Please add white dotted lines and lettering T (trabecular bone) and GP (growth plate) for the not-so-experienced reader. This will provide some orientation.

      We used white dotted lines as well as letters to label the tissue in immunofluorescence staining images (Figure 6E).

      (5) Line 350: "NAC derived and blood-trans, Ported miR-335-3p". There is a grammatical error. Please conduct general proofreading of the text and writing style.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have corrected this grammatical error, and we also checked the full text to correct similar errors.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) miR-335-3p was downregulated in the femur in the CUMS mice. The possible mechanism for this outcome should be further discussed. In Figure 4B, the Volcano plot showed that only a few miRNA were differentially expressed between the control and CUMS mice. How do the authors explain this?

      The chronic unpredictable mild stress (CUMS) model was constructed using normal mice. As the name of the model suggests, the stimulus is mild and does not cause developmental damage or teratogenic effects in mice. Conversely, CUMS has the potential to result in the chronic pathological conditions. Besides, in miRNA sequencing results from other tissues with similar models to ours, the number of differential miRNAs is also around a few dozen (Ma et al., 2019).

      (2) The authors have demonstrated that miR-335-3p inhibits osteoclast differentiation based on an in vitro assay in Figure 5; however, an in vivo experiment is required to provide more solid evidence.

      We strongly agree that in vivo experimental validation would bring more convincing results to this study. Therefore, we designed and produced Antagomir-335-3p (antagonist) and Agomir-335-3p (agonist), which were injected into mice via the tail vein every five days. Samples were collected at one and two months following the injection. We found that sustained two-month injections of antagomir could significantly lead to bone loss in mice (Figure 5H-I), which is consistent with our in vitro validation results.

      However, the Agomir-miR-335-3p group did not exhibit a notable enhancement of bone mass. This may be attributed to the fact that the 11-week-old normal mice selected for this study were in their prime and did not have strong osteoclastic activity in vivo. Therefore, the osteoclastic inhibition of Agomir-335-3p could not be demonstrated.

      In addition, no significant difference was seen one month after the injection. The main reason may be that the time is too short. On the one hand, the drug we injected was RNA preparation. They lacked stability resulting in poor delivery efficiency, which took some time to take effect. On the other hand, bone remodeling is also a time-consuming process.

      (3) FOS and NFATC1 should be expressed in the nuclei of the cells, therefore, the quality of the images needs to be improved.

      NFATC1 is a T-cell-activating nuclear factor that is activated in the nucleus to regulate the transcription of a variety of osteoclast-related genes, including ACP5, MMP9, etc. FOS could bind and interact with NFATC1, resulting in nuclear translocation and transcription activated. This could promote the differentiation and maturation of osteoclasts. They are both synthesized and processed in the cytoplasm and eventually enter the nucleus to perform their functions. Therefore, they are expressed in both the nucleus and the cytoplasm (Deng et al., 2022; Hounoki et al., 2008; Li et al., 2022).

      In Figure 5G, we labeled cell nuclei with HOCHEST antibody with blue fluorescence, and more co-localized signals of nuclei (blue), FOS (red), and NFATC1 (green) were seen in the Inhibitor-miR-335-3p group, whereas the opposite result was observed in the Mimic-miR-335-3p group. These results indicated that inhibited miR-335-3p could promote osteoclast differentiation in vitro.

      (4) The expression of FOS was elevated in CUMS group in Figure 6E; however, its mRNA level was unchanged, as shown in Figure 6 supplement; what is the explanation for this? How do the authors claim FOS is the downstream target if its mRNA expression is not impacted by CUMS?

      The results demonstrated that miR-335-3p targeted binding to the mRNA of Fos did not result in mRNA degradation. Instead, this binding interferes with the protein translation process, which ultimately leads to the reduction of FOS protein.

      (5) What would be the bone phenotype if a FOS inhibitor was injected into the control and CUMS mice? It is important to examine FOS function through an in vivo context.

      The regulatory role of FOS for osteoclasts has been validated in numerous articles, both in vivo and in vitro(Aikawa et al., 2008; Cao et al., 2023; Cheng et al., 2022). For example, Aikawa et al. designed a small-molecule inhibitor of c-Fos/activator protein-1 (AP-1) using three-dimensional (3D) pharmacophore modeling, which helped verify the effect of FOS on osteoclasts in vivo(Aikawa et al., 2008).

      We also strongly agree that in vivo injection of inhibitors of FOS, especially in CUMS mice, could further substantiate the role of miR-335-3p in osteoclasts under psychological stress. However, the study was constrained by the unavailability of commercially viable, efficacious small molecule inhibitors of FOS. In the future, we plan to design more precise therapeutic targets for psychological stress induced osteoporosis based on existing research ideas.

      Reference

      Aikawa, Y., Morimoto, K., Yamamoto, T., Chaki, H., Hashiramoto, A., Narita, H., Hirono, S., & Shiozawa, S. (2008). Treatment of arthritis with a selective inhibitor of c-Fos/activator protein-1. Nature Biotechnology, 26(7), 817-823. https://doi.org/10.1038/nbt1412

      Cao, Z., Niu, X. B., Wang, M. H., Yu, S. W., Wang, M. K., Mu, S. L., Liu, C., & Wang, Y. X. (2023, Nov). Anemoside B4 attenuates RANKL-induced osteoclastogenesis by upregulating Nrf2 and dampens ovariectomy-induced bone loss [Article]. Biomedicine & Pharmacotherapy, 167, 12, Article 115454. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biopha.2023.115454

      Cheng, X., Yin, C., Deng, Y., & Li, Z. (2022). Exogenous adenosine activates A2A adenosine receptor to inhibit RANKL-induced osteoclastogenesis via AP-1 pathway to facilitate bone repair. Molecular Biology Reports, 49(3), 2003-2014. https://doi.org/10.1007/s11033-021-07017-1

      Deng, W., Ding, Z., Wang, Y., Zou, B., Zheng, J., Tan, Y., Yang, Q., Ke, M., Chen, Y., Wang, S., & Li, X. (2022). Dendrobine attenuates osteoclast differentiation through modulating ROS/NFATc1/ MMP9 pathway and prevents inflammatory bone destruction. Phytomedicine : International Journal of Phytotherapy and Phytopharmacology, 96, 153838. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.phymed.2021.153838

      Hounoki, H., Sugiyama, E., Mohamed, S. G.-K., Shinoda, K., Taki, H., Abdel-Aziz, H. O., Maruyama, M., Kobayashi, M., & Miyahara, T. (2008). Activation of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor gamma inhibits TNF-alpha-mediated osteoclast differentiation in human peripheral monocytes in part via suppression of monocyte chemoattractant protein-1 expression. Bone, 42(4), 765-774. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.bone.2007.11.016

      Li, Y., Yang, C., Jia, K., Wang, J., Wang, J., Ming, R., Xu, T., Su, X., Jing, Y., Miao, Y., Liu, C., & Lin, N. (2022). Fengshi Qutong capsule ameliorates bone destruction of experimental rheumatoid arthritis by inhibiting osteoclastogenesis. Journal of Ethnopharmacology, 282, 114602. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jep.2021.114602

      Li, Z., Huang, J., Wang, F., Li, W., Wu, X., Zhao, C., Zhao, J., Wei, H., Wu, Z., Qian, M., Sun, P., He, L., Jin, Y., Tang, J., Qiu, W., Siwko, S., Liu, M., Luo, J., & Xiao, J. (2019). Dual Targeting of Bile Acid Receptor-1 (TGR5) and Farnesoid X Receptor (FXR) Prevents Estrogen-Dependent Bone Loss in Mice. Journal of Bone and Mineral Research : the Official Journal of the American Society For Bone and Mineral Research, 34(4), 765-776. https://doi.org/10.1002/jbmr.3652

      Ma, K., Zhang, H., Wei, G., Dong, Z., Zhao, H., Han, X., Song, X., Zhang, H., Zong, X., Baloch, Z., & Wang, S. (2019). Identification of key genes, pathways, and miRNA/mRNA regulatory networks of CUMS-induced depression in nucleus accumbens by integrated bioinformatics analysis. Neuropsychiatric Disease and Treatment, 15, 685-700. https://doi.org/10.2147/NDT.S200264

      Ma, Q., Liang, M., Wu, Y., Luo, F., Ma, Z., Dong, S., Xu, J., & Dou, C. (2021). Osteoclast-derived apoptotic bodies couple bone resorption and formation in bone remodeling. Bone Research, 9(1), 5. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41413-020-00121-1

      Zhong, L., Lu, J., Fang, J., Yao, L., Yu, W., Gui, T., Duffy, M., Holdreith, N., Bautista, C. A., Huang, X., Bandyopadhyay, S., Tan, K., Chen, C., Choi, Y., Jiang, J. X., Yang, S., Tong, W., Dyment, N., & Qin, L. (2023). Csf1 from marrow adipogenic precursors is required for osteoclast formation and hematopoiesis in bone. eLife, 12. https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.82112

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Batra, Cabrera, Spence et al. present a model which integrates histone posttranslational modification (PTM) data across cell models to predict gene expression with the goal of using this model to better understand epigenetic editing. This gene expression prediction model approach is useful if a) it predicts gene expression in specific cell lines b) it predicts expression values rather than a rank or bin, c) it helps us to better understand the biology of gene expression, or d) it helps us to understand epigenome editing activity. Problematically for points a) and b) it is easier to directly measure gene expression than to measure multiple PTMs and so the real usefulness of this approach mostly relates to c) and d).

      We thank the reviewer for their comment and we agree that directly measuring gene expression (e.g., by performing RNA-seq) is easier than performing multiple PTMs in a new cell line. We designed our approach keeping in mind that the primary use case is to understand how epigenome editing would affect gene expression.

      Other approaches have been published that use histone PTM to predict expression (e.g. 27587684, 36588793). Is this model better in some way? No comparisons are made. The paper does not seem to have substantial novel insights into understanding the biology of gene expression. The approach of using this model to predict epigenetic editor activity on transcription is interesting and to my knowledge novel but I doubt given the variability of the predictions (Figures 6 and S7&8) that many people will be interested in using this in a practical sense. As the authors point out, the interpretation of the epigenetic editing data is convoluted by things like sgRNA activity scoring and to fully understand the results likely would require histone PTM profiling and maybe dCas9 ChIP-seq for each sgRNA which would be a substantial amount of work.

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful comment. We have included citations for a series of papers (PMIDs: 27587684, 30147283, 36588793) that performed gene expression prediction using histone PTM data. However, each of these methods perform classification of gene expression as opposed to predicting the actual gene expression value via regression. Additionally, the referenced studies all work with Roadmap Epigenomics read depth data as opposed to p-values obtained from the ENCODE pipelines, making it difficult to make direct comparisons.

      We outline in the Discussion section that by creating a comprehensive dataset of epigenome editing outcomes, which include quantification of histone PTMs before and after in situ perturbations, will improve our understanding of the effects of dCas9-p300 on gene expression and assist in the design of gRNAs for achieving fine-tuned control over gene expression levels. 

      Furthermore from the model evaluation of H3K9me3 it seems the model is not performing well for epigenetic or transcriptional editing- e.g. we know for the best studied transcriptional editor which is CRISPRi (dCas9-KRAB) that recruitment to a locus is associated with robust gene repression across the genome and is associated with H3K9me3 deposition by recruitment of KAP1/HP1/SETDB1 (PMID: 35688146, 31980609, 27980086, 26501517). However, it seems from Figures 2&4 that the model wouldn't be able to evaluate or predict this.

      We thank the reviewer for their comment. We have included a supplementary figure, Figure 4 – figure supplement 1, that quantifies how sensitive the trained gene expression model is to perturbations in H3K9me3. Indeed our data suggests that the model predictions are sensitive to perturbations in H3K9me3. For instance, there is a clear decrease and a gradual increase as the position where the perturbation is performed moves from upstream to downstream of the TSS. Additionally, the magnitude of the predicted fold-change is a function of how much the H3K9me3 is perturbed and hence the magnitude of change would be even higher if the perturbation magnitude is increased. However, this precise magnitude is hard to estimate In the absence of experimental perturbation data for H3K9me3.

      The model seems to predict gene expression for endogenous genes quite well although the authors sometimes use expression and sometimes use rank (e.g. Figure 6) - being clearer with how the model predicts expression rather than using rank or fold change would be very useful.

      We thank the reviewer for this important suggestion. We have added text in the revised manuscript to clarify that the model predicts gene expression values, which can be interpreted as rank or fold change, depending on the use case.

      One concern overall with this approach is that dCas9-p300 has been observed to induce sgRNA-independent off-target H3K27Ac (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8349887/ see Figure S5D) which could convolute interpretation of this type of experiment for the model.

      This is an excellent point and indeed, we and others have observed that dCas9-p300 can result in off-target H3K27ac levels (both increased and suppressed) across the genome. However, p300 is one of the few known proteins that can catalyze H3K27ac in the human genome, and H3K27ac remains a proxy for active genomic regulatory elements. Nevertheless, dCas9-p300 off target activity could certainly convolute our approach. We have included language to address this caveat in our discussion. Interestingly, even though dCas9-p300 (and other epigenome editing enzymes) can lead to off-target chromatin modifications, these effects often occur without coincident disruptions to the transcriptome. This suggests that many chromatin modifications, while “supportive” or “instructive” of/for transcription, may be insufficient (either alone or in the context of dCas9-based fusions) for transcriptional effects.

      Figure 2

      It seems this figure presents known rather than novel findings from the authors' description. Please comment on whether there are any new findings in this figure. Please comment on differences in patterns of repressive and activating histone PTMs between cell lines (e.g. H1-Esc H3K27me3 green 25-50% is more enriched than red 0-25%).

      Thank you for pointing out this issue. We have revised the text in both the Results and Discussion sections to better articulate that the goal of this figure is to validate the hypothesis that there are consistent patterns of histone PTMs with respect to gene expression across different human cell types.

      In Figure 2, which illustrates the raw histone marks data, the non-monotonic behavior of H3K27me3 in H1-hESC cells is indicative of a real biological phenomenon. This interpretation is supported by the relatively low Pearson correlation for the H3K27me3 mark observed in these cells, as documented in Figure 1b of another study: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.03.29.587323v1.

      Figure 3&4

      There are a number of approaches including DeepChrome and TransferChrome that predict endogenous gene expression from histone PTMs. I appreciate that the authors have not used the histone PTM data to predict gene expression levels of an "average cell" but rather that they are predicting expression within specific cell types or for unseen cell types. But from what is presented it isn't clear that the author's model is better or enabling beyond other approaches. The authors should show their model is better than other approaches or make clear why this is a significant advance that will be enabling for the field. For example is it that in this approach they are actually predicting expression levels whereas previous approaches have only predicted expressed or not expressed or a rank order or bin-based ranking?

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have added text to clarify the difference between our approach and existing approaches. There are two key differences between our model and other approaches. First, the gene expression model that we have trained here predicts gene expression values instead of gene expression levels as either high or low. Second, we have trained our models on ENCODE p-value data instead of read depths obtained from the Roadmap Epigenomics Consortium.

      Figure 5

      From the methods, it seems gene activation is measured by qpcr in hek293 transfected with individual sgRNAs and dCas9-p300. The cells aren't selected or sorted before qPCR so how are we sure that some of the variability isn't due to transfection efficiency associated with variable DNA quality or with variable transfection efficiency?

      This is a good question. All DNA preps were generated using high-quality reagents and consistent protocols. In addition, the only variable that changed with respect to transfection efficiency was the gRNA-encoding vector used in qPCR assays. We have added new data which demonstrates that transfection efficiency is shared across experiments (Figure 5 – figure supplement 1). We have also added additional experimental data as well as computational analysis analyzing a new dCas9-p300 based Perturb-seq dataset to the manuscript (Figure 6 – figure supplement 1), which use lentiviral transduction and RNA-seq as readouts and thus, are buffered against the variances mentioned by the Reviewer.

      Figure 6

      The use of rank in 6D and 6E is confusing. In 6D a higher rank is associated with higher expression while in 6E a higher rank seems to mean a lower fold change e.g. CYP17A1 has a low predicted fold-change rank and qPCR fold-change rank but in Figure 5 a very high qPCR fold change. Labeling this more clearly or explaining it in the text further would be useful.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion. We have made relevant changes to the caption of Figure 6 to clarify this.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors build a gene expression model based on histone post-translational modifications and find that H3K27ac is correlated with gene expression. They proceed to perturb H3K27ac at 8 gene promoters, and measure gene expression changes to test their model.

      Strengths:

      The combination of multiple methods to model expression, along with utilizing 6 histone datasets in 13 cell types allowed the authors to build a model that correlates between 0.7-0.79 with gene expression. This group also utilized a tool they are experts in, dCas9-p300 fusions to perturb H3K27ac and monitor gene expression to test their model. Ranked correlations showed some support for the predictions after the perturbation of H3K27ac.

      Weaknesses:

      The perturbation of only 8 genes, and the only readout being qPCR-based gene expression, as opposed to including H3K27ac, weakened their validation of the computational model. Likewise, the use of six genes that were not expressed being most activated by dCas9-p300 might weaken the correlations vs. looking at a broad range of different gene expressions as the original model was trained on.

      We thank the reviewer for their comments. We have added additional experimental data as well as computational analysis analyzing a new dCas9-p300 based Perturb-seq dataset to the manuscript. We observe that the models we have developed are able to predict the fold-change rank across genes reasonably well (Figure 6 – figure supplement 1), similar to what we observe in Figure 6E.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors should comment on how their model is different from or better than other models that use histone PTM data to predict gene expression.

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful suggestion. We have included citations for a series of papers (PMIDs: 27587684, 30147283, 36588793) that performed gene expression prediction using histone PTM data. However, each of these methods perform classification of gene expression as opposed to predicting the actual gene expression value via regression. Additionally, the referenced studies all work with Roadmap Epigenomics read depth data as opposed to p-values obtained from the ENCODE pipelines, making it difficult to make direct comparisons.

      The authors need to make clear whether their model will apply to other common epigenetic or transcriptional editors such as CRISPRi/H3K9me3 which is widely used.

      In this study, we focus on the histone changes induced by p300. However, future studies may use the framework described in our manuscript and apply it to other transcriptional editors as well.

      The authors need to be clearer about where they are predicting expression and where they are using rank. Ideally, show both.

      We thank the reviewer for this important suggestion. We have added text in the revised manuscript to clarify that the model predicts gene expression values, which can be interpreted as rank or fold change, depending on the use case.

      The authors should ideally show a case where they use the model to make a prediction of genes that can and can not be activated by dCas9-p300 or other epigenetic editors and then prove this with experiments.

      Thank you for the excellent suggestion. While it is indeed relevant, exploring this would extend beyond the scope of our current study. We consider it a valuable topic for future research.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The y-axis in 5C needs to be labeled. The authors state it is "relative mRNA" but these numbers correlated with fold changes shown in Table S2.

      We have clarified the definition of the Y-axis in the caption for Figure 5C.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      I did not follow the logic behind including spindle amplitude in the meta-analysis. This is not a measure of SO-spindle coupling (which is the focus of the review), unless the authors were restricting their analysis of the amplitude of coupled spindles only. It doesn't sound like this is the case though. The effect of spindle amplitude on memory consolidation has been reviewed in another recent meta-analysis (Kumral et al, 2023, Neuropsychologia). As standardization this isn't a measure of coupling, it wasn't clear why this measure was included in the present meta-analysis. You could easily make the argument that other spindle measures (e.g., density, oscillatory frequency) could also have been included, but that seems to take away from the overall goal of the paper which was to assess coupling.

      Indeed, spindle amplitude refers to all spindle events rather than only coupled spindles. This choice was made because we recognized the challenge of obtaining relevant data from each study—only 4 out of the 23 included studies performed their analyses after separating coupled and uncoupled spindles. This inconsistency strengthens the urgency and importance of this meta-analysis to standardize the methods and measures used for future analysis on SO-SP coupling and beyond. We agree that focusing on the amplitude of coupled spindles would better reveal their relations with coupling, and we will discuss this limitation in the manuscript.

      Nevertheless, we believe including spindle amplitude in our study remains valuable, as it served several purposes. First, SO-SP coupling involves the modulation between spindle amplitude and slow oscillation phase. Different studies have reported conflicting conclusions regarding how spindle amplitude was related to coupling– some found significant correlations (e.g., Baena et al., 2023), while others did not (e.g., Roebber et al., 2022). This discrepancy highlights an indirect but potentially crucial insight into the role of spindle amplitude in coupling dynamics. Second, in studies related to SO-SP coupling, spindle amplitude is one of the most frequently reported measures along with other coupling measures that significantly correlated with oversleep memory improvements (e.g. Kurz et al., 2023; Ladenbauer et al., 2021; Niknazar et al., 2015), so we believe that including this measure can more comprehensively review of the existing literature on SO-SP coupling. Third, incorporating spindle amplitude allows for a direct comparison between the measurement of coupling and individual events alone in their contribution to memory consolidation– a question that has been extensively explored in recent research. (e.g., Hahn et al., 2020; Helfrich et al., 2019; Niethard et al., 2018; Weiner et al., 2023). Finally, spindle amplitude was identified as a key moderator for memory consolidation in Kumral et al.'s (2023) meta-analysis. By including it in our analysis, we sought to replicate their findings within a broader framework and introduce conceptual overlaps with existing reviews. Therefore, although we were not able to selectively include coupled spindles, there is still a unique relation between spindle amplitude and SO-SP coupling that other spindle measures do not have. 

      Originally, we also intended to include coupling density or counts in the analysis, which seems more relevant to the coupling metrics. However, the lack of uniformity in methods used to measure coupling density posed a significant limitation. We hope that our study will encourage consistent reporting of all relevant parameters in future research, enabling future meta-analyses to incorporate these measures comprehensively. We will add this discussion to the manuscript in the revised version to further clarify these points.

      References:

      Roebber, J. K., Lewis, P. A., Crunelli, V., Navarrete, M. & Hamandi, K. Effects of anti-seizure medication on sleep spindles and slow waves in drug-resistant epilepsy. Brain Sci. 12, 1288 (2022). https://doi.org/10.3390/brainsci12101288

      All other citations were referenced in the manuscript.

      At the end of the first paragraph of section 3.1 (page 13), the authors suggest their results "... further emphasise the role of coupling compared to isolated oscillation events in memory consolidation". This had me wondering how many studies actually test this. For example, in a hierarchical regression model, would coupled spindles explain significantly more variance than uncoupled spindles? We already know that spindle activity, independent of whether they are coupled or not, predicts memory consolidation (e.g., Kumral meta-analysis). Is the variance in overnight memory consolidation fully explained by just the coupled events? If both overall spindle density and coupling measures show an equal association with consolidation, then we couldn't conclude that coupling compared to isolated events is more important.

      While primary coupling measurements, including coupling phase and strength, showed strong evidence for their associations with memory consolidation, measures of spindles, including spindle amplitude, only exhibited limited evidence (or “non-significant” effect) for their association with consolidation. These results are consistent with multiple empirical studies using different techniques (e.g., Hahn et al., 2020; Helfrich et al., 2019; Niethard et al., 2018; Weiner et al., 2023), which reported that coupling metrics are more robust predictors of consolidation and synaptic plasticity than spindle or slow oscillation metrics alone. However, we agree with the reviewer that we did not directly separate the effect between coupled and uncoupled spindles, and a more precise comparison would involve contrasting the “coupling of oscillation events” with ”individual oscillation events” rather than coupling versus isolated events.

      We recognized that Kumral and colleagues’ meta-analysis reported a moderate association between spindle measures and memory consolidation (e.g., for spindle amplitude-memory association they reported an effect size of approximately r = 0.30). However, one of the advantages of our study is that we actively cooperated with the authors to obtain a large number of unreported and insignificant data relevant to our analysis, as well as separated data that were originally reported under mixed conditions. This approach decreases the risk of false positives and selective reporting of results, making the effect size more likely to approach the true value. In contrast, we found only a weak effect size of r = 0.07 with minimal evidence for spindle amplitude-memory relation. However, we agree with the reviewer that using a more conservative term in this context would be a better choice since we did not measure all relevant spindle metrics including the density.

      To improve clarity in our manuscript, we will revise the statement to: “Together with other studies included in the review, our results suggest a crucial role of coupling but did not support the role of spindle events alone in memory consolidation,” and provide relevant references. We believe this can more accurately reflect our findings and the existing literature to address the reviewer’s concern.

      It was very interesting to see that the relationship between the fast spindle coupling phase and overnight consolidation was strongest in the frontal electrodes. Given this, I wonder why memory promoting fast spindles shows a centro-parietal topography? Surely it would be more adaptive for fast spindles to be maximally expressed in frontal sites. Would a participant who shows a more frontal topography of fast spindles have better overnight consolidation than someone with a more canonical centro-parietal topography? Similarly, slow spindles would then be perfectly suited for memory consolidation given their frontal distribution, yet they seem less important for memory.

      Regarding the topography of fast spindles and their relationship to memory consolidation, we agree this is an intriguing issue, and we have already developed significant progress in this topic in our ongoing work. We share a few relevant observations: First, there are significant discrepancies in the definition of “slow spindle” in the field. Some studies defined slow spindle from 9-12 Hz (e.g. Mölle et al., 2011; Kurz et al., 2021), while others performed the event detection within a range of 11-13/14 Hz (e.g. Barakat et al., 2011; D'Atri et al., 2018). Compounding this issue, individual differences in spindle frequency are often overlooked, leading to challenges in reliably distinguishing between slow and fast spindles. Some studies have reported difficulty in clearly separating the two types of spindles altogether (e.g., Hahn et al., 2020). Moreover, a critical factor often ignored in past research is the traveling nature of both slow oscillations and spindles across the cortex, where spindles are coupled with significantly different phases of slow oscillations (see Figure 5). We believe a better understanding of coupling in the context of the movement of these waves will help us better understand the observed frontal relationship with consolidation. We will address this in our revised manuscript.

      The authors rightly note the issues with multiple comparisons in sleep physiology and memory studies. Multiple comparison issues arise in two ways in this literature. First are comparisons across multiple electrodes (many studies now use high-density systems with 64+ channels). Second are multiple comparisons across different outcome variables (at least 3 ways to quantify coupling (phase, consistency, occurrence) x 2 spindle types (fast, slow). Can the authors make some recommendations here in terms of how to move the field forward, as this issue has been raised numerous times before (e.g., Mantua 2018, Sleep; Cox & Fell 2020, Sleep Medicine Reviews for just a couple of examples). Should researchers just be focusing on the coupling phase? Or should researchers always report all three metrics of coupling, and correct for multiple comparisons? I think the use of pre-registration would be beneficial here, and perhaps could be noted by the authors in the final paragraph of section 3.5, where they discuss open research practices.

      There are indeed multiple methods that we can discuss, including cluster-based and non-parametric methods, etc., to correct for multiple comparisons in EEG data with spatiotemporal structures. In addition, encouraging the reporting of all tested but insignificant results, at least in supplementary materials, is an important practice that helps readers understand the findings with reduced bias. We agree with the reviewer’s suggestions and will add more information in section 3.5 to advocate for a standardized “template” used to analyze and report effect size in future research.

      We advocate for the standardization of reporting all three coupling metrics– phase, consistency, and occurrence. Each coupling metric captures distinct properties of the coupling process and may interact with one another (Weiner et al., 2023). Therefore, we believe it is essential to report all three metrics to comprehensively explore their different roles in the “how, what, and where” of long-distance communication and consolidation of memory. As we advance toward a deeper understanding of the relationship between memory and sleep, we hope this work establishes a standard for the standardization, transparency, and replication of relevant studies.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Regarding the Moderator of Age: Although the authors discuss the limited studies on the analysis of children and elders regarding age as a moderator, the figure shows a significant gap between the ages of 40 and 60. Furthermore, there are only a few studies involving participants over the age of 60. Given the wide distribution of effect sizes from studies with participants younger than 40, did the authors test whether removing studies involving participants over 60 would still reveal a moderator effect?

      We agree that there is an age gap between younger and older adults, as current studies often focus on contrasting newly matured and fully aged populations to amplify the effect, while neglecting the gradual changes in memory consolidation mechanisms across the aging spectrum. We suggest that a non-linear analysis of age effects would be highly valuable, particularly when additional child and older adult data become available.

      In response to the reviewer’s suggestion, we re-tested the moderation effect of age after excluding effect sizes from older adults. The results revealed a decrease in the strength of evidence for phase-memory association due to increased variability, but were consistent for all other coupling parameters. The mean estimations also remained consistent (coupling phase-memory relation: -0.005 [-0.013, 0.004], BF10 = 5.51, the strength of evidence reduced from strong to moderate; coupling strength-memory relation: -0.005 [-0.015, 0.008], BF10 = 4.05, the strength of evidence remained moderate). These findings align with prior research, which typically observed a weak coupling-memory relationship in older adults during aging (Ladenbauer et al, 2021; Weiner et al., 2023) but not during development (Hahn et al., 2020; Kurz et al., 2021; Kurz et al., 2023). Therefore, this result is not surprising to us, and there are still observable moderate patterns in the data. We will report these additional results in the revised manuscript, and interpret “the moderator effect of age becomes less pronounced during development after excluding the older adult data”. We believe the original findings including the older adult group remain meaningful after cautious interpretation, given that the older adult data were derived from multiple studies and different groups.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      First, the authors conclude that "SO-SP coupling should be considered as a general physiological mechanism for memory consolidation". However, the reported effect sizes are smaller than what is typically considered a "small effect" (0.10)

      While we acknowledge the concern about the small effect sizes reported in our study, it is important to contextualize these findings within the field of neuroscience, particularly memory research. Even in individual studies, small effect sizes are not uncommon due to the inherent complexity of the mechanisms involved and the multitude of confounding variables. This is an important factor to be considered in meta-analyses where we synthesize data from diverse populations and experimental conditions. For example, the relationship between SO-slow SP coupling and memory consolidation in older adults is expected to be insignificant.

      As Funder and Ozer (2019) concluded in their highly cited paper, an effect size of r = 0.3 in psychological and related fields should be considered large, with r = 0.4 or greater likely representing an overestimation and rarely found in a large sample or in a replication. Therefore, we believe r = 0.1 should not be considered as a lower bound of the small effect. Bakker et al. (2019) also advocate for a contextual interpretation of the effect size. This is particularly important in meta-analyses, where the results are less prone to overestimation compared to individual studies, and we cooperated with all authors to include a large number of unreported and insignificant results. In this context, small correlations may contain substantial meaningful information to interpret. Although we agree that effect sizes reported in our study are indeed small at the overall level, they reflect a rigorous analysis that incorporates robust evidence across different levels of moderators. Our moderator analyses underscore the dynamic nature of coupling-memory relationships, with certain subgroups demonstrating much stronger and more meaningful effects, especially after excluding slow spindles and older adults. For example, both the coupling phase and strength of frontal fast spindles with slow oscillations exhibited "moderate-to-large" correlations with the consolidation of different types of memory, especially in young adults, with r values ranging from 0.18 to 0.32. (see Table S9.1-9.4). We will add more discussion about the influence of moderators on the dynamics of coupling-memory associations. In addition, we will update the conclusion to be “SO-fast SP coupling should be considered as a general physiological mechanism for memory consolidation”.

      Reference:

      Funder, D. C. & Ozer, D. J. Evaluating effect size in psychological research: sense and nonsense. Adv. Methods Pract. Psychol. Sci. 2, 156–168 (2019). https://doi.org/10.1177/2515245919847202.

      Bakker, A. et al. Beyond small, medium, or large: Points of consideration when interpreting effect sizes. Educ. Stud. Math. 102, 1–8 (2019). https://doi.org/10.1007/s10649-019-09908-4

      Second, the study implements state-of-the-art Bayesian statistics. While some might see this as a strength, I would argue that it is the greatest weakness of the manuscript. A classical meta-analysis is relatively easy to understand, even for readers with only a limited background in statistics. A Bayesian analysis, on the other hand, introduces a number of subjective choices that render it much less transparent.

      This kind of analysis seems not to be made to be intelligible to the average reader. It follows a recent trend of using more and more opaque methods. Where we had to trust published results a decade ago because the data were not openly available, today we must trust the results because the methods can no longer be understood with reasonable effort.

      This becomes obvious in the forest plots. It is not immediately apparent to the reader how the distributions for each study represent the reported effect sizes (gray dots). Presumably, they depend on the Bayesian priors used for the analysis. The use of these priors makes the analyses unnecessarily opaque, eventually leading the reader to question how much of the findings depend on subjective analysis choices (which might be answered by an additional analysis in the supplementary information).

      We appreciate the reviewer for sharing this viewpoint and we value the opportunity to clarify some key points. To address the concern about clarity, we will include a sub-section in the methods section explaining how to interpret Bayesian statistics including priors, posteriors, and Bayes factors, making our results more accessible to those less familiar with this approach.

      On the use of Bayesian models, we believe there may have been a misunderstanding. Bayesian methods, far from being "opaque" or overly complex, are increasingly valued for their ability to provide nuanced, accurate, and transparent inferences (Sutton & Abrams, 2001; Hackenberger, 2020; van de Schoot et al., 2021; Smith et al., 1995; Kruschke & Liddell, 2018). It has been applied in more than 1,200 meta-analyses as of 2020 (Hackenberger, 2020). In our study, we used priors that assume no effect (mean set to 0, which aligns with the null) while allowing for a wide range of variation to account for large uncertainties. This approach reduces the risk of overestimation or false positives and demonstrates much-improved performance over traditional methods in handling variability (Williams et al., 2018; Kruschke & Liddell, 2018). Sensitivity analyses reported in the supplemental material (Table S9.1-9.4) confirmed the robustness of our choices of priors– our results did not vary by setting different priors.

      As Kruschke and Liddell (2018) described, “shrinkage (pulling extreme estimates closer to group averages) helps prevent false alarms caused by random conspiracies of rogue outlying data,” a well-known advantage of Bayesian over traditional approaches. This explains the observed differences between the distributions and grey dots in the forest plots. Unlike p-values, which can be overestimated with a large sample size and underestimated with a small sample size, Bayesian methods make assumptions explicit, enabling others to challenge or refine them– an approach aligned with open science principles (van de Schoot et al., 2021). For example, a credible interval in Bayesian model can be interpreted as “there is a 95% probability that the parameter lies within the interval.”, while a confidence interval in frequentist model means “In repeated experiments, 95% of the confidence intervals will contain the true value.” We believe the former is much more straightforward and convincing for readers to interpret. We will ensure our justification for using Bayesian models is more clearly presented in the manuscript.

      We acknowledge that even with these justifications, different researchers may still have discrepancies in their preferences for Bayesian and frequentist models. To increase the effort of transparent reporting, we have also reported the traditional frequentist meta-analysis results in Supplemental Material 10 to justify the robustness of our analysis, which suggested non-significant differences between Bayesian and frequentist models. We will include clearer references in the next version of the manuscript to direct readers to the figures that report the statistics provided by traditional models.

      References:

      Hackenberger, B.K. Bayesian meta-analysis now—let's do it. Croat. Med. J. 61, 564–568 (2020). https://doi.org/10.3325/cmj.2020.61.564

      Sutton, A.J. & Abrams, K.R. Bayesian methods in meta-analysis and evidence synthesis. Stat. Methods Med. Res. 10, 277–303 (2001). https://doi.org/10.1177/096228020101000404

      Williams, D.R., Rast, P. & Bürkner, P.C. Bayesian meta-analysis with weakly informative prior distributions. PsyArXiv (2018). https://doi.org/10.31234/osf.io/9n4zp

      van de Schoot, R., Depaoli, S., King, R. et al. Bayesian statistics and modelling. Nat Rev Methods Primers 1, 1 (2021). https://doi.org/10.1038/s43586-020-00001-2

      Smith, T.C., Spiegelhalter, D.J. & Thomas, A. Bayesian approaches to random-effects meta-analysis: a comparative study. Stat. Med. 14, 2685–2699 (1995). https://doi.org/10.1002/sim.4780142408

      Kruschke, J.K. & Liddell, T.M. The Bayesian New Statistics: Hypothesis testing, estimation, meta-analysis, and power analysis from a Bayesian perspective. Psychon. Bull. Rev. 25, 178–206 (2018). https://doi.org/10.3758/s13423-016-1221-4

      However, most of the methods are not described in sufficient detail for the reader to understand the proceedings. It might be evident for an expert in Bayesian statistics what a "prior sensitivity test" and a "posterior predictive check" are, but I suppose most readers would wish for a more detailed description. However, using a "Markov chain Monte Carlo (MCMC) method with the no-U-turn Hamiltonian Monte Carlo (HMC) sampler" and checking its convergence "through graphical posterior predictive checks, trace plots, and the Gelman and Rubin Diagnostic", which should then result in something resembling "a uniformly undulating wave with high overlap between chains" is surely something only rocket scientists understand. Whether this was done correctly in the present study cannot be ascertained because it is only mentioned in the methods and no corresponding results are provided. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concerns about accessibility and potential complexity in our descriptions of Bayesian methods. Our decision to provide a detailed account serves to enhance transparency and guide readers interested in replicating our study. We acknowledge that some terms may initially seem overwhelming. These steps, such as checking the MCMC chain convergence and robustness checks, are standard practices in Bayesian research and are analogous to “linearity”, “normality” and “equal variance” checks in frequentist analysis. We have provided exemplary plots in the supplemental material and will add more details to explain the interpretation of these convergence checks. We hope this will help address any concerns about methodological rigor.

      In one point the method might not be sufficiently justified. The method used to transform circular-linear r (actually, all references cited by the authors for circular statistics use r² because there can be no negative values) into "Z_r", seems partially plausible and might be correct under the H0. However, Figure 12.3 seems to show that under the alternative Hypothesis H1, the assumptions are not accurate (peak Z_r=~0.70 for r=0.65). I am therefore, based on the presented evidence, unsure whether this transformation is valid. Also, saying that Z_r=-1 represents the null hypothesis and Z_r=1 the alternative hypothesis can be misinterpreted, since Z_r=0 also represents the null hypothesis and is not half way between H0 and H1.

      First, we realized that in the title of Figures 12.2 and 12.3. “true r = 0.35” and “true r = 0.65” should be corrected as “true Z_r”. The method we used here is to first generate an underlying population that has null (0), moderate (0.35), or large (0.65) Z_r correlations, then test whether the sampling distribution drawn from these populations followed a normal distribution across varying sample sizes. Nevertheless, the reviewer correctly noticed discrepancies between the reported true Z_r and its sampling distribution peak. This discrepancy arises because, when generating large population data, achieving exact values close to a strong correlation like Z_r = 0.65 is unlikely. We loop through simulations to generate population data and ensure their Z_r values fall within a threshold. For moderate effect sizes (e.g., Z_r = 0.35), this is straightforward using a narrow range (0.345 < Z_r < 0.355). However, for larger effect sizes like Z_r = 0.65, a wider range (0.6 < Z_r < 0.7) is required. therefore sometimes the population we used to draw the sample has a Z_r slightly deviated from 0.65. This remains reasonable since the main point of this analysis is to ensure that large Z_r still has a normal sampling distribution, but not focus specifically on achieving Z_r = 0.65.

      We acknowledge that this variability of the range used was not clearly explained and it is not accurate to report “true Z_r = 0.65”. In the revised version, we will address this issue by adding vertical lines to each subplot to indicate the Z_r of the population we used to draw samples, making it easier to check if it aligns with the sampling peak. In addition, we will revise the title to “Sampling distributions of Z_r drawn from strong correlations (Z_r = 0.6-0.7)”. We confirmed that population Z_r and the peak of their sampling distribution remain consistent under both H0 and H1 in all sample sizes with n > 25, and we hope this explanation can fully resolve your concern.

      We agree with the reviewer that claiming Z_r = -1 represents the null hypothesis is not accurate. The circlin Z_r = 0 is better analogous to Pearson’s r = 0 since both represent the mean drawn from the population with the null hypothesis. In contrast, the mean effect size under null will be positive in the raw circlin r, which is one of the important reasons for the transformation. To provide a more accurate interpretation, we will update Table 6 to describe the following strength levels of evidence: no effect (r < 0), null (r = 0), small (r = 0.1), moderate (r = 0.3), and large (r = 0.5).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We thank the Editors and reviewers for their candid evaluation of our work. While it was suggested that we should demonstrate the validity of our approach with maybe 10 different datasets but we felt that this would place an undue burden on our resources. Generally, it takes about 4 to 6 months for us to build a dataset and this does not include the time taken to train and test our AI models. This would mean that it would take us another 3 to 5 years to complete this research project if we chose to provide 10 different datasets. Publishing a research on one dataset is definitely not unheard of: for example, Subramanian et al. (2016) published their widely-cited benchmark dataset for just BACE1 inhibitors. However, we hoped that the additional work where we showed that we were able to improve the benchmark dataset for BACE1 inhibitors and achieve the same high level of predictive performance for this dataset would convince the readers (and reviewers) of the reproducibility of our approach. Furthermore, we also showed that our approach is robust and does not rely on a large volume of data to achieve this near-perfect accuracy. As can be seen in the Supplemental section, even our AI models trained on ONLY 250 BRAF actives and 250 inactives could achieve 96.3% accuracy! Logically, if the model is robust then we would expect the model to be reproducible. As such, we do not feel it is necessary for us to test our approach on 10 different datasets. 

      It was also suggested that we expand this study to other types of molecular representations to give a better idea of generalizability. We would like to point out that we tested, in total, 55 single fingerprints and paired combinations. Our goal was to create an approach that could give superior performance for virtual screening and we believe that we have achieved this. Based on the results of our study, we are of the opinion that molecular representations do not, in general, have an oversized effect on AI virtual screening. Although it is important to be aware that certain molecular representations may give SLIGHTLY better performance but we can see that with the exception of the 79-bit E-State fingerprint (which could still achieve an impressive 85% accuracy for the SVM model), nearly all molecular fingerprints and paired combinations that we used were able to achieve an accuracy of above 97%. Therefore, we do not share the reviewers' concern that our approach may not be useful when applied with other types of molecular representations.

      It is true that our work involved manual curation of the datasets but the goal of this paper is to lay down some  ground rules for the future development of a data-centric AI approach. Although manual curation is a routine practice in AI/ML, but it should be recognised that there is good manual curation and bad manual curation, and rules need to be established to ensure we have good manual curation. Without these rules, we would also not be able to establish and train a data-centric AI. All manual curation involves a level of subjectiveness but that subjectiveness comes from one's experience and domain knowledge of the field in which the AI is being applied. For example, in the case of this study, we relied on our knowledge and understanding of pharmacology to determine whether a compound is pharmacologically inactive or active. This may seem somewhat arbitrary to the uninitiated but it is anything but arbitrary. It is through careful thought and assessment of the chemical compounds that we choose these compounds for training the AI. Unfortunately, this sort of subjective assessment cannot be easily or completely explained but we do show where current practices have failed when building a dataset for training an AI for virtual screening.

    1. Author response:

      (1) Controls for the genetic background are incomplete, leaving open the possibility that the observed oviposition timing defects may be due to targeted knockdown of the period (per) gene but from the GAL4, Gal80, and UAS transgenes themselves. To resolve this issue the authors should determine the egg-laying rhythms of the relevant controls (GAL4/+, UAS-RNAi/+, etc); this only needs to be done for those genotypes that produced an arrhythmic egg-laying rhythm.

      We agree with this objection, and in the corrected version we plan to provide the assessment of the egg laying rhythms for the missing GAL4 controls as recommended only for Figure 3.

      (2) Reliance on a single genetic tool to generate targeted disruption of clock function leaves the study vulnerable to associated false positive and false negative effects: a) The per RNAi transgene used may only cause partial knockdown of gene function, as suggested by the persistent rhythmicity observed when per RNAi was targeted to all clock neurons. This could indicate that the results in Fig 2C-H underestimate the phenotypes of targeted disruption of clock function. b) Use of a single per RNAi transgene makes it difficult to rule out that off-target effects contributed significantly to the observed phenotypes. We suggest that the authors repeat the critical experiments using a separate UAS-RNAi line (for period or for a different clock gene), or, better yet, use the dominant negative UAS-cycle transgene produced by the Hardin lab (https://doi.org/10.1038/22566).

      We have recently acquired mutant flies with a dominant negative-cycle transgene (UAS-cycDN, Tanoue et al. 2004), and we plan to repeat our experiments with these mutants, in order to confirm our results.

      (3) The egg-laying profiles obtained show clear damping/decaying trends which necessitates careful trend removal from the data to make any sense of the rhythm. Further, the detrending approach used by the authors is not tested for artefacts introduced by the 24h moving average used.

      In the revised version we will show that the detrending approach used does not introduce any artefacts. The analysis of numerical simulations with an aperiodic stochastic signal superposed to a decaying signal shows that the detrending method used does not result in a spurious periodic signal. Furthermore, we can show that when the underlying signal is rhythmic, the correct period is obtained even when the moving average is a few hours larger or smaller than 24 h.

      (4) According to the authors the oviposition device cannot sample at a resolution finer than 4 hours, which will compel any experimenter to record egg laying for longer durations to have a suitably long time series which could be useful for circadian analyses.

      We apologize for not being clear enough. The device can in principle sample at any desired resolution. Notice, however, that the variable we are analyzing (number of eggs laid by a single female) has only a few possible values, which is one of the features that render the assessment of rhythmicity a particularly difficult task. If egg laying is sampled more often (say, at 2 h intervals) more time points will be available, but the values available for each time point will be much less. We will show an example where we compare both rates (2h and 4h). Even though the 2h sampling reveals the rhythmicity of the time series, the significance of the peaks obtained is less than when sampling at 4h intervals. We have found that a 4h sampling seems to provide the best compromise between frequency of the sampling and discreteness of the variable.

      On the other hand, it is important to stress that sampling frequency and longer durations are not very correlated (see e.g. Cohen et al. Journal of Theoretical Biology 314, pp 182 [2012]). It has been shown that the best way to make accurate predictions of the period of a rhythmic signal is to have a series spanning many cycles, irrespective of the sampling frequency. In other words, it is not true that with a 2h sampling it would be possible to analyze shorter series than with 4h sampling. Unfortunately, egg laying records are usually less than 5 cycles long, which is one of the reasons for the difficulties in the assessment of their rhythmicity.

      (5) Despite reducing the interference caused by manually measuring egg-laying, the rhythm does not improve the signal quality such that enough individual rhythmic flies could be included in the analysis methods used. The authors devise a workaround by combining both strongly and weakly rhythmic (LSpower > 0.2 but less than LSpower at p < 0.05) data series into an averaged time series, which is then tested for the presence of a 16-32h "circadian" rhythm. This approach loses valuable information about the phase and period present in the individual mated females, and instead assumes that all flies have a similar period and phase in their "signal" component while the distribution of the "noise" component varies amongst them. This assumption has not yet been tested rigorously and the evidence suggests a lot more variability in the inter-fly period for the egg-laying rhythm.

      The assumption is difficult to test rigorously, since for individual flies the records seem to be so noisy that no information can be extracted. As shown in the paper, it is even very difficult to assess the presence of rhythmicity at the individual level. We consider that the appearance of a rhythm after averaging several records shows the presence of this rhythm at the individual level. But it could be argued that the presence of rhythmicity in the average record could be due to only a few (or even a single) rhythmic individuals. In order to show that this is probably not the case, in the revised version we will show that, when the individuals that are rhythmic are left out, the average of the remaining flies still shows a rhythm (albeit a weaker one, as was to be expected).

      Regarding our assumption that all flies have the “same” period, the results on Fig. 1 F cannot really rule out this possibility, because with so few cycles, the determination of the period is not very accurate (see e.g. Cohen et al. Journal of Theoretical Biology 314, pp 182 [2012]). In our case, the error for the period is related to the width of the corresponding peak in the periodogram, which is typically 4 hs. In any case, in the revised version we will try to show, by using numerical simulations, that when the individual periods are not the same, but are distributed approximately as in Fig 1F, the average series is still rhythmic with the correct period.

      (6) This variability could also depend on the genotype being tested, as the authors themselves observe between their Canton-S and YW wild-type controls for which their egg-laying profiles show clearly different dynamics. Interestingly, the averaged records for these genotypes are not distinguishable but are reflected in the different proportions of rhythmic flies observed. Unfortunately, the authors also do not provide further data on these averaged profiles, as they did for the wild-type controls in Figure 1, when they discuss their clock circuit manipulations using perRNAi. These profiles could have been included in Supplementary figures, where they would have helped the reader decide for themselves what might have been the reason for the loss of power in the LS periodogram for some of these experimental lines.

      Even though we think that the individual records are in general too noisy to be really informative, we will provide all the individual egg profiles in the Supplementary Material of the revised version, in order to let the reader, check this for herself/himself.

      (7) By selecting 'the best egg layers' for inclusion in the oviposition analyses an inadvertent bias may be introduced and the results of the assays may not be representative of the whole population.

      We agree that this may introduce some bias in the results. But in our opinion this bias is very difficult to avoid, since for females that lay very few eggs, rhythmicity can even be difficult to define (some females can spend a whole day without laying a single egg). On the other hand, even when the results may not be representative of the whole population, they would be representative of the flies that lay most of the eggs in a population, which seems to be very relevant in ecological terms.

      (8) An approach that measures rhythmicity for groups of individual records rather than separate individual records is vulnerable to outliers in the data, such as the inclusion of a single anomalous individual record. Additionally, the number of individual records that are included in a group may become a somewhat arbitrary determinant for the observed level of rhythmicity. Therefore, the experimental data used to map the clock neurons responsible for oviposition rhythms would be more convincing if presented alongside individual fly statistics, in the same format as used for Figure 1.

      The question of possible rhythmic outliers has been addressed above, in question 5, where we discuss why we think that such outliers are not “determinant for the observed level of rhythmicity”. As also mentioned above, even though we think that they are too noisy to be informative, we plan to include all individual profiles in the Supplementary Material.

      (9) The features in the experimental periodogram data in Figures 3B and D are consistent with weakened complex rhythmicity rather than arrhythmicity. The inclusion of more individual records in the groups might have provided the added statistical power to demonstrate this. Graphs similar to those in 1G and 1I, might have better illustrated qualitative and quantitative aspects of the oviposition rhythms upon per knockdown via MB122B and Mai179; Pdf-Gal80.

      We assume that the features mentioned refer to the appearance in the periodograms of two small peaks under the significance lines. We are aware that in the studies of the rhythmicity of locomotor activity such features are usually interpreted as “complex rhythms”, i.e. as evidence of the existence of two different mechanisms producing two different rhythms in the same individual. In our case, however, at least two other possibilities should be taken into account. Since the periodograms we show assess the rhythmicity of the average time series of several individuals, the two small peaks could correspond to the periods of two different subpopulations. Another possibility could be that such peaks are simply an artifact of the method in the analysis of time series that consist of very few cycles (as explained above) and also few points per cycle. A cursory examination of the individual profiles, that will be provided in the new version, do not seem to support any of the first two possibilities mentioned. On the other hand, we will show evidence that the analysis of series that are perfectly random sometimes result in periodograms with some small peaks.

    1. Author response:

      We would like to thank the editors and reviewers for taking the time to help improve our manuscript. We appreciate the feedback and will definitely increase the level of methodological detail in a revised submission.

      Here is a brief summary of our plan to address the points raised by the reviewers. We will respond to the comments in a point-by-point manner when we resubmit a revised manuscript.

      Reviewer 1

      This reviewer raised a question about the 60 Hz frame rate for recording. We agree that increasing the number of cameras and frame rate would improve the tracking quality, but this would come at the cost of scalability. In the current study (and other concurrent studies in the lab), we recorded from 10-20 families simultaneously to try to sample the distribution of behavioral responses to stimuli observed in animals in our colony. This was only possible logistically because of the lightweight equipment design allowing us to record data from animals without large disruptions to their home-cage environment.

      One strategy for acquiring higher-resolution data is to build a small number of enclosures that are fully surrounded by cameras, and to cycle animals through these enclosures (1). However, this strategy limits throughput by reducing the number of animals per day that can be studied. If the size and cost of cameras and computers decreases in the future, then this recording strategy will be scalable to the whole-colony level. For our current study and analysis, we are limited by the resolution of our dataset. We do believe that our data (although not a perfect 3d reconstruction or an extremely high frame rate) is sufficient to label behavioral states with high accuracy. We will add a figure to more clearly show that behavioral state data can be accurately inferred from this imperfect data, which has also been recently highlighted by other groups (2).

      Additionally, with recent progress in the application of deep learning to animal pose tracking, new models can infer 3d pose dynamics from 2d data (3) and leverage spatiotemporal structure to clean up noisy data (4). We believe that other groups will be able to use these types of approaches to extract much more value from this dataset. So, in summary, we do understand the concern related to reconstruction quality and will 1) more clearly define the usefulness of our current models, 2) release our data and code so that others can build upon it or repurpose it, and 3) plan future experiments with higher camera count and frame rate as permitted by logistical constraints. 

      Reviewer 2

      This reviewer asked for an increased level of methodological detail. We will try to address this in a few ways:

      (1) Code and data sharing. We believe that many of the questions related to the methodology will be best answered by sharing the data and code directly. Because there is a large amount of code associated with this manuscript, it is impractical to list every step and every parameter in the paper. Along with our revised manuscript, we will make our data and code publicly available. That said, we will improve our description of key parameters in the paper as the reviewer suggested.

      (2) More detailed Methods section. The reviewer asked us to provide more methodological detail. We understand that this is currently a weakness of our manuscript, and we will focus on addressing it. For instance, the reviewer rightly points out that we did not describe the motion watches used to generate the data in Figure S7. We will address this.

      (3) Simplify the manuscript. The paper currently has 22 figures, and further analysis could be done based on the results shown in any of them. For instance, this reviewer asked us to add a comparison across females and males (similar to our comparison of juveniles and adults). While we plan to add that analysis, we recognize that there are several figures/panels that are not closely related to our intended goal of describing the patterns we found in our large dataset. We will simplify the manuscript by removing some excess figures/panels and focus on describing the parts of the analysis that are crucial to our conclusions in greater detail.

      (4) More careful language. This reviewer pointed out that there were some inaccuracies with our descriptive language. For instance, we used the term "natural" behavior to describe the behavior of animals in captivity, which may more accurately be described as their home-cage behavior. We will be more careful to align our language to the standard for the field. For instance, several studies refer to unrestrained behavior in a laboratory setting as "spontaneous" behavior rather than "natural" behavior (5). In our case, the data consists of both spontaneously occurring behavior and responses to a set of stimuli. We will make sure that the descriptions are more precise in the revised manuscript.

      (1) Bala, P. C. et al. Automated markerless pose estimation in freely moving macaques with OpenMonkeyStudio. Nat Commun 11, (2020).

      (2) Weinreb, C. et al. Keypoint-MoSeq: parsing behavior by linking point tracking to pose dynamics. bioRxiv (2023) doi:10.1101/2023.03.16.532307.

      (3) Gosztolai, A. et al. LiftPose3D, a deep learning-based approach for transforming two-dimensional to three-dimensional poses in laboratory animals. Nat Methods 18, 975–981 (2021).

      (4) Wu, A. et al. Deep Graph Pose: a semi-supervised deep graphical model for improved animal pose tracking. Adv Neural Inf Process Syst 33, 6040–6052 (2020).

      (5) Levy, D. R. et al. Mouse spontaneous behavior reflects individual variation rather than estrous state. Curr Biol 33, 1358-1364.e4 (2023).

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This study is focused on a population of neurons in the mouse parasubthalamic nucleus (pSTN) that express Tackhykinin1 (Tac1). This gene has been used before to target pSTN for functional circuit studies because it is fairly selective for pSTN in this region, though it targets only a subset of pSTN neurons. Prior work has shown that activity in these neurons can impact motivated behaviors, including feeding and drinking behaviors, and that their activity is associated with aversion or avoidance behaviors. While not breaking much new ground, this study adds to that work by making use of a 2-way active avoidance assay, where a CS predicts a US (footshock), that the mice can escape. Using fiber photometry, the authors show convincing evidence that Tac1 neurons in pSTN increase their activity in response to a US footshock, and that after some pairings the neurons will start responding to the CS too, though to a lesser extent than the US. Their most important data shows that either ablation or optogenetic inhibition of these cells can hugely block the active avoidance (escape) behavior, suggesting these neurons are key for the performance of this task, which they interpret as key for learning the task (but see more below). They show that optogenetic stimulation is aversive in a real-time place assay, and when paired with footshock can enhance active avoidance behavior. Finally, they show that Tac1 pSTN axons in PVT recapitulate these effects while showing that axons in CEA or PBN may only recapitulate some of these effects (more below). Overall I think the data is solid and shows that the activity of Tac1 pSTN neurons in the 2 way active avoidance task is causally related to avoidance behavior in the direction that would be predicted by recent literature. However, I think the authors overstate the conclusions in the title, abstract, and text. I do not think the data make a strong case for a role for these cells in learning, at least in any classical sense, as used in the title and abstract and elsewhere. Also, the statement in the abstract that the pSTN mediates its effects 'differentially' through its downstream targets is not convincingly supported by data.

      We are very pleased that Reviewer 1 thought our data is solid.

      Major concerns:

      (1) The authors infer that the activity in the Tac1 pSTN neurons is necessary for aversive or avoidance 'learning'. But this is not well defined, what exactly does that mean and what types of evidence would support or falsify such a hypothesis? Moreover, the authors show convincingly, and in line with prior reports, that these cells are activated by aversive stimuli (here footshock), and that activation of these cells is sufficient to induce avoidance behavior. Because manipulation of these cells can serve as a primary negative reinforcer, it becomes even more challenging and important to explain how experiments that manipulate these cells while measuring behavior/performance can discriminate between changes in: (1) primary aversion, (2) motivation to avoid, (3) associative learning, or (4) memory/retrieval. The authors seem to favor #3, but they don't make a clear case for this point of view or else what they mean by 'avoidance learning'. In my opinion, the data do not well discriminate between possibilities 1 through 3. The authors should clarify their logic and temper their conclusions throughout.

      Thank you Reviewer 1 for providing us insightful suggestions. Based on our fiber photometry data that the activities of PSTN Tac1+ neurons show a significant increase in CS-evoked calcium fluorescent signals in late trials relative to those in early trials (Figure 1H-K) and our optogenetic inhibition experiments during CS (Figure 2N-Q), these results illustrate that the activities of PSTN Tac1+ neurons are modulated by learning and are required for active avoidance learning. Moreover, PSTN Tac1+ neurons are activated by footshock and activation of these cells is sufficient to induce avoidance behavior. These findings demonstrate that PSTN Tac1+ neurons encode aversive information. Together, our current data support that PSTN Tac1+ neurons encode both aversive event and its predicting cue. We will clarify our conclusions in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Abstract line 37 is not well supported. The authors focus mostly on pSTN projections to PVT and show that the measurements or manipulation of these axons recapitulates the effects seen with pSTN cell bodies. The authors do fewer studies of axons in CeA and PBN, but do find that they can recapitulate the effects with opsin inhibition, but detect no effects with opsin stimulation. However, the lack of effect with opsin stimulation in Figure S7a-e proves very little on its own. It could be technical, due to inadequate expression or functional efficacy. It is not supported by histological and functional evidence that the manipulation was effective. Overall, I can only conclude that the projections to these regions might be very similar (based on the inhibition data), or might be a little different. The data are thus inadequate to support the authors' claim that the pSTN mediates learning differentially through its downstream targets.

      In the revised version of manuscript, we will provide more histological and functional evidence for the PSTN-to-CeA and PSTN-to-PBN circuits to support our conclusion on the functional roles of these downstream targets. Similar with our anterograde experiment that the PSTN densely projects to CeA and PBN (Figure S6), optogenetic activation and inhibition experiments showed dense axonal terminals in the CeA and PBN from the PSTN and this line of data will be included in the revised manuscript. In addition, we will further examine these circuits by investigating the functional roles of CeA-projecting or PBN-Projecting PSTN neurons during 2-way active avoidance task.

      Other concerns:

      (3) Line 93 is not adequately supported by data in Figure 1b. Additional data is needed that shows expression across cases, including any spread that may be visible when zooming out from pSTN. Additional methods are needed to indicate what exclusion criteria were applied and how many mice were excluded. These data could help support the statement on line 93 that expression was largely restricted within pSTN.

      In the revised version of manuscript, we will provide larger example images containing pSTN and its adjacent areas to demonstrate that the viral expression is well restricted into this brain area. Moreover, we will provide detailed information on the exclusion criteria and the number of mice excluded in the Method section.   

      (4) From the results and methods it is not clear where the GFP signal would come from in the mice expressing Casp3 for the ablation studies. It is therefore not clear if the absence of GFP should be taken as evidence of cell loss. For example, it is not clear if multiple vectors were used, if volumes and titers were carefully matched between control groups, or if competition/occlusion between AAVs could be ruled out. It is also not clear how this was quantified, that is how many sections/subjects and how counting was done. It is not clear how long was waited between the AAV infusion, behavior, and euthanasia, perhaps especially important for the ablation done after avoidance learning occurred.

      I totally agree with Reviewer 1’s concerns. We will perform immunohistochemistry or in situ hybridization for Tachykinin-1 itself and then measure colocalization of GFP with Tachykinin-1 inside and outside of the PTSN, and the degree of absence of Tachykinin-1 in Casp mice. In addition, we will provide more detailed experimental information in the revised manuscript.

      (5) The authors should consider showing individual measurements and not just mean/sem wherever feasible, for example, to support the statement on line 141 that 'all ablated mice showed...'.

      Thank you Reviewer 1 for this suggestion. We will re-plot the data as individual measurements in the revised manuscript.

      (6) S3 is an important control for interpreting data in Figure 2d-i. Something similar is needed to support the inferences made in 2j-u. The very strong effect showing a lack of active avoidance in response to CS or the US when pSTN Tac1 neurons are inhibited during CS or during US suggests that something gross may be going on, such as a gross motor or sensory response that supersedes the effect of footshock. The authors do not comment on whether there are any gross behavioral responses to the inhibition, but an experiment as in S3 is needed, for example, to show that behavior is intact during pSTN inhibition if delivered after the mice already learned to associate CS with US.

      Thank you Reviewer 1 for this insightful suggestion. During the review process, we have performed this line of experiment as in Figure S3. We measured the behavioral responses during pSTN optogenetic inhibition after the mice already learned to associate CS with US and found most GtACR-expressing mice showed unaffected avoidance learning. This data will be included in the revised manuscript.

      (7) The authors use 100 shocks of 0.8 mA for 7 days. I think this is quite strong and in the pSTN inhibition experiments it seems to be functionally 'inescapable' and could thus produce behaviors similar to 'learned helplessness'. Can the authors consider whether this might contribute to the striking findings they observed in their opsin inhibition assays?

      I agree with the Reviewer 1’s comment on the string findings in the optogenetic inhibition results. Indeed, based on the results on days 1 and 2, optogenetic inhibition of PSTN tac1+ neurons has significantly blocked GtACR-expressing animals’ behavioral performance during 2-way active avoidance task. To examine whether the effect by optogenetic inhibition of these neurons could possibly decline with prolonged training, we conducted additional 5-day training. We will discuss and add this comment in the revised manuscript.

      (8) The description of the experiment in S5 is inadequate. What are the adjacent areas? Where do the authors see spread? The use of the word 'case' in figure S5 implies an individual case, but the legend says 5 mice were used for 'case 1' and 3 mice were used for 'case 2'. The use of the word 'off-target in the figure implies that the expression was of the intended target. But the text of results and methods implies it was intentional targeting of unnamed and unshown adjacent regions. This should be clarified.

      We will add histological images and clarify these comments in the revised manuscript. The purpose of this experiment is to illustrate that even slightly spreading ChR2 viruses into Tac1+ neurons of the adjacent areas of the PSTN did not result in behavioral changes and this will indirectly support the main behavioral function caused by the PSTN tac1+ neurons rather than its neighboring areas. Because Tac1+ neurons outside the PSTN are sparsely expressed, it is quite difficult to completely restrict the viral expression in the PSTN from the anterior to the posterior. Thus, we will provide detailed information on the exclusion criteria and the number of mice excluded in the Method section.   

      (9) The authors suggest the CPA study is divergent from Serra et al 2023. Though I think this could be due to how the conditioning was done, it would be helpful for the authors to include less processed data. This would aid in possible interpretations for any divergences across studies. Can the authors include raw data (in seconds of time spent) in each compartment for each group across baseline and test days?

      We will follow Reviewer 1’s suggestion to include raw data (in seconds of time spent) in each compartment for each group across baseline and test days in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Hu et. al presents a clearly-designed examination of the role of tachykinin1-expressing neurons in the parasubthalamic nucleus of the lateral posterior hypothalamus (PTSN) in active avoidance learning. These glutamatergic neurons have previously been implicated in responding to negative stimuli. This manuscript expands the current understanding of PTSNTac1 neurons in learned responses to threats by showing their role in encoding and mediating the active avoidance response. The authors first use bulk fiber photometry imaging to show the encoding of the active avoidance procedure, followed by cell-type specific manipulations of PTSNTac1 neurons during active avoidance. Finally, they show that encoding and mediation of active avoidance in a downstream target of PTSNTac1 neurons, the PVT/intermediodorsal nuclei of the dorsal thalamus (IMD), has the same effect as what was discovered in the cell body. This contrasts other output regions of the PTSN, such as the PBN and CeA, which were not found to promote active avoidance learning. The experiments presented were well-designed to support the conclusions of the authors, however, the manuscript is missing several key control experiments and supplemental information to support their main findings.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript provides information on a brain region and downstream target that mediates active avoidance learning. The manuscript provides valuable information via necessity and sufficiency experiments to show the role of the population of interest (PTSNTac1 neurons) in active avoidance learning. The authors also performed most behavior experiments in male and female mice, with adequate power to address potential sex differences in the control of active avoidance by PTSNTac1 neurons. Finally, the manuscript provides valuable information about the specificity of the PTSNTac1 downstream target in regulating active avoidance learning, identifying the PVT/intermediodorsal nuclei of the dorsal thalamus as the key target and ruling out the PBN and CeA.

      We highly appreciate that Reviewer 2 thought that our experiments presented were well-designed to support the conclusions and provided valuable information in several aspects.

      Weaknesses:

      However, several main conclusions of the paper must be interpreted carefully due to missing or inadequate control experiments and histological verification.

      (1) Inadequate presentation of viral localization. The authors state that expression was "largely restricted within PSTN" however there is no quantification of the amount of viral expression beyond the target region. Given that Tac1 is expressed in neighboring regions, it is critical to show the viral expression and fiber implant location data for all animals included in the figures. Furthermore, criteria for inclusion and exclusion based on mistargeting should be delineated. This should also be clearly outlined for the experiments in Figure S5, where "behavioral effects of activation of sparsely Tac1-expressing neurons in two adjacent areas of PSTN" was tested but the location of viral expression in those cases is unclear.

      Similar with questions 3 and 8 of Reviewer 1. We will provide the viral expression and fiber implant location data for all animals included in the figures and histological images in Figure S5 in the revised manuscript. Moreover, we will provide detailed information on the exclusion criteria and the number of mice excluded in the Method section.  

      2) Lack of motion artifact correction with isosbestic signal for GCamp recordings. It is appreciated that the authors included a separate EGFP-expressing group to compare to the GCamp-expressing group, however, additional explanation is required for the methods used to analyze the raw fluorescent signal. Namely, were fluorescent signals isosbestic-corrected prior to calculating ΔF/F? If no isosbestic signal was used to correct motion artifacts within a recording session, additional explanation is needed to explain how this was addressed. The lack of motion artifacts in the EGFP signal in a separate cohort is inadequate to answer this caveat as motion artifacts are within-animal.

      We will follow Reviewer 2’s suggestion and perform isosbestic-correction for fluorescent signals prior to calculating ΔF/F. We will re-plot related figures and add this information in the revised manuscript.

      (3) Missing control experiment demonstrating intact locomotor performance in caspase ablation experiments. The authors use caspase ablation of PTSNTac1 neurons prior to active avoidance learning to appraise the necessity of this cell population. However, a control experiment showing intact locomotor ability in ablated mice was not performed.

      We will follow Reviewer 2’s suggestion to perform a control experiment showing intact locomotor ability in caspase 3-ablated mice and will include this data in the revised manuscript.

      (4) Missing control experiment demonstrating [lack of] valence with PTSN silencing manipulations. The authors performed a real-time and conditioned place preference experiments for ChR2-expressing mice (Fig 3M) and found stimulation to be negatively-valenced and generate an aversive memory, respectively. Absent this control experiment with silencing, an alternative conclusion remains possible that optogenetic silencing via GtACR2 created nonspecific location preferences in the active avoidance apparatus, confounding the interpretation of those results.

      Thank you Reviewer 2 for this useful suggestion. We will examine the valence with PTSN silencing manipulations by using a RTPP test and add this data in the revised manuscript.

      (5) Incomplete analysis of sex differences. Data in female mice is conspicuously missing from inhibition experiments. The rationale for exclusion from this dataset would be useful for the interpretation of the other noted sex differences.

      Thank you Reviewer 2 for this useful suggestion. During the review process, we have performed ablation and inhibition experiments in females, demonstrating similar behavioral effects as those in males. We will add these data in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study by Hu et al. examined the role of tachykinin1 (Tac1)-expressing neurons in the para subthalamic nucleus (PSTH) in active avoidance of electric shocks. Bulk recording of PSTH Tac1 neurons or axons of these neurons in PVT showed activation of a shock-predicting tone and shock itself. Ablation of these neurons or optogenetic manipulation of these neurons or their projection to PVT suggests the causality of this pathway with the learning of active avoidance.

      Strengths:

      This work found an understudied pathway potentially important for active avoidance of electric shocks. Experiments were thoroughly done and the presentation is clear. The amount of discussion and references are appropriate.

      We are very pleased to have Reviewer 3’s positive comments on the manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      Critical control experiments are missing for most experiments, and statistical tests are not clear or not appropriate in most parts. Details are shown below.

      (1) There are some control experiments missing. Notably, optogenetic manipulation is not verified in any experiments. It is important to verify whether neural activation with optogenetic activation is at the physiological level or supra-physiological level, and whether optogenetic inhibition does not cause unwanted activity patterns such as rebound activation at the critical time window.

      Thank you Reviewer 3 for this useful suggestion. We will perform in vitro slice recording experiments to verify optogenetic manipulations and add this line of evidence in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Neural ablation with caspase was confirmed by GFP expression. However, from the present description, a different virus to express EITHER caspase or GFP was injected, and then the numbers of GFP-expressing neurons were compared. It is not clear how this can detect ablation.

      Similar with question 4 of Reviewer 1. We will perform immunohistochemistry or in situ hybridization for Tachykinin-1 itself and then measure colocalization of GFP with Tachykinin-1 inside and outside of the PTSN, and the degree of absence of Tachykinin-1 in Casp-ablated mice. In addition, we will provide more detailed experimental information in the revised manuscript.

      (3) In many places, statistical approaches are not clear from the present figures, figure legends, and Methods. It seems that most statistics were performed by pooling trials, but it is not described, or multiple "n" are described. For example, it is explicitly mentioned in Figure 4H, "n = 3 mice, n = 213 avoidance trials and n = 87 failure trials". The authors should not pool trials, but should perform across-animal tests in this and other figures, and "n" for should be clearly described in each plot.

      We have provided all statistical information in the Supplementary Table 1. In the revised manuscript, we will perform across-animal tests, re-plot new figures and provide clear statistical information.

      (4) It is also unclear how the test types were selected. For example, in Figure 1K and O with similar datasets, one is examined by a paired test and the other is by an unpaired test. Since each animal has both early vs late trials, and avoidance vs failure trials, paired tests across animals should be performed for both.

      Following Reviewer 3’s suggestion, we will perform across-animal tests. In the first version of our manuscript, for fiber photometry experiments, we pooled trial data of each animal and performed statistics tests across trials. Because avoidance and failure trials were different, we thus selected an unpaired test for this kind of dataset.

      (5) It is also strange to show violin plots for only 6 animals. They should instead show each dot for each animal, connected with a line to show consistent increases of activity in late vs early trials and avoidance vs failure trials.

      Similar with question 4 of Reviewer 3, we pooled trial data of each animal and performed statistics tests across trials. We will perform across-animal tests and re-plot figures by connecting with a line to show consistent increases of activity in late vs early trials and avoidance vs failure trials for each animal.

      (6) To tell specificity in avoidance learning, it is better to show escape in the current trials with optogenetic manipulation.

      Thank you Reviewer 3 for this useful suggestion. We will follow this suggestion and add this analysis in the revised manuscript.

      (7) For place aversion, % time decrease across days was tested. It is better to show the original number before normalization, as well.

      Similar with question 9 of Reviewer 1, we will show the original number before normalization in the revised manuscript.

      (8) For anatomical results in Figure S6, it is important to show images with lower magnification, too.

      We will follow this suggestion and provide histological images with lower magnification in the revised manuscript.

      (9) Inactivation of either pathway from PSTH to PBN or to CeA also inhibits active avoidance, but the authors conclude that these effects are "partial" compared to the inactivation of PSTH to PVT. It is not clear how the effects were compared since the effects of PSTH-CeA inactivation are quite strong, comparable to PSTH-PVT inactivation by eye. They should quantify the effects to conclude the difference.

      We will quantify the effects of different downstream targets of the PSTN to make a precise conclusion.

      (10) Supplementary table 1: as mentioned above, n for statistical tests should be clearer.

      As mentioned above, we will perform across-animal tests and provide clear statistical information in the figure legends and supplementary table 1.