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Section 2 then begins the real ball game, namely everyone has the following fundamental freedom. The one difficulty we had, as a committee, is with Section 2(b). What do we do with freedom of thought when you have got legislation dealing with have propaganda? How far is it possible to retain such articles as Section 281(1) of the Criminal Code and Section 281(2)? Moreover, you will see we have quoted from Article 20 of the United National Covenant of Civil and Political Rights where propaganda of this kind is regarded as inconsistent with freedom of speech. [Page 87] So we raised the question which seemed to me to be necessary to raise with you, that caution must be exercised, we hope, by the courts in due course, or by you, as draftsmen on how far you are prepared to push the concept of free speech consistent with our experience of hate propaganda. One suggestion we make here-and I do not wish to do anything more than to drop it as a hint, but you may want to have some language that some of the modern constitutions have, which state very starkly and flatly that the advocacy of genocide or group libel is forbidden. But I had the honour to be the chairman of the special committee on hate propaganda in 1965. At that time we came to the flat conclusion that the advocacy of group hatred and genocide was totally inconsistent with the democratic process and no democratic state could tolerate it. Now, whether you want to put that flatly in a constitution is for you to consider; but I think it is for us to bring it to your attention, because it is of importance.

This Committee did not have a parochial view; this Committee does not pretend that the human rights question belongs to any sector of the Canadian people. It belongs to them all. But, peculiarly enough, there are two or three areas where the Jewish interest happens to be special, and in some cases very sensitive. One is the problem of war criminals, and how that relates to certain protections offered by a charter of rights in the criminal law field. Another is the problem of free speech, and how far that affects such things as hate propaganda

We want to make it very clear, first of all, that in principle we support the entrenchment of a bill of rights in the constitution. We want to see the constitution patriated to Canada and we want to see in that constitution an entrenched bill of rights. However, we do have some concerns. We are not altogether happy with all of the bill of rights. in that connection we are, I suppose, in somewhat the same situation as a number of other groups who have appeared before you. For example, we feel that some of the statements are too vague. Having been a part of the preparation of the brief of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, I can say that I, personally, share some of the concerns that they have in terms of the vagueness of some of the language, and I speak particularly of such words as “fundamental freedoms”, and those kinds of things in which we talk about “natural rights”, et cetera. We would like to see some of these things spelled out. On the question, for example, of freedom of speech, we believe very strongly in freedom of speech, while at the same time, of course, being against censorship. But we would like to see freedom of speech limited only in certain specific ways. In the brief we have indicated, for example, that to a large extent we believe in the doctrine of clear and present danger. We think that freedom of speech should be curtailed where the danger is clear. For example, we have no right to go into a crowded theatre and shout “Fire!” resulting in people being trampled to death as a result of fleeing from a fire which is nonexistent and where there is no danger at all. In a situation like that, obviously, we do not have absolute freedom. But we think this needs to be spelled out a lot more clearly than it is today.

I would like to ask you if you have considered, Ms. Hardy, the notion of freedom of the press as an individual right or collective right? Ms. Hardy: It could be considered both because if you speak of freedom of the press for a newspaper, it includes the whole role of a newspaper in a community as well as the role of an individual reporter or columnist, so that I really feel that there would be no point in having freedom of the press for an individual if you did not have it for the publication for which the individual happened to be working, either perhaps in the electronic media or in the print media. So I would prefer to have it refer to both an individual and collective group. Senator Lapointe: Do you think that editors of papers or radio stations would have to come here also to express their opinion on freedom of the press? Ms. Hardy: We would include them as responsible leaders, presumably in the community, and the value of having responsible leadership is very noticeable now that the Royal Commission on Newspapers is sitting and I think that you have to have the leadership in order to develop followers and principles.

I want to refer you to Section 2 of the resolution which is a Section on fundamental freedoms. It says: Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: (a) freedom of conscience and religion, (b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion expression, including freedom of the press and other media of information What I want to ask you is, how do you think the word “everyone” would be interpreted as it pertains to everyone has the following freedoms, the freedom of the press, freedom of other media of information. I want to take you back in this country about four of five years when the government across the way introduced legislation, which I supported, concerning Time magazine and Reader’s Digest, to try and Canadianize the magazine industry in this country. I am wondering whether or not if we were to enshrine Section 2 in the constitution as written, Time magazine or Reader’s Digest could have gone to the courts and said: “We have a consitutional right in this country of freedom of expression and freedom of the press and freedom of information, freedom of the media; therefore, the government of Canada [Page 12] and the Parliament of Canada do not have the right to legislate restrictively against our two organizations.” Could it be interpreted in that way? Ms. Crandall: Mr. Nystrom, I think that is the kind of question which an expert should be asked to answer. This is what we are saying now, We have not had an opportunity to look at all sides of these questions to give you any kind of an answer. Again, I am not trying to be difficult. But that is one of the questions which we would like to ask someone who is knowledgeable. Mr. Nystrom: I appreciate the answer. The reason why I ask the question is that the words “everyone” and “citizens of Canada” are used throughout the resolution. I am not a lawyer myself, but it would seem to imply that these could be given a fairly wide interpretation, and I am concerned that we might have in a constitution something that is restrictive where we could not increase Canadian content. Let me ask you the same question again about the electronic media. There is growing concern that we Canadianize radio, television—and the CRTC is concerned about this, about television programs coming in from the United States. There is talk now about a second CBC network in this country. Again, I want to ask you a similar question pertaining to the electronic media. If everybody has the freedom of expression and freedom of the press and other media of information, in your opinion, or perhaps in the opinion of your colleague, do you think we would be able to do this as a Parliament, where the constitution says we are denying a fundamental right to everyone, perhaps NBC, New York, or ABC somewhere in the United States? Ms. Hardy: I think, Mr. Nystrom, that it is very important. I have served abroad for Canada in the Department of External Affairs, in the public affairs field, and I feel that it is very important that we develop a Canadian culture, that we develop an interest in things Canadian and a pride, and I grant that there are very good programs produced by the electronic media of other countries but I think we should be proud of our own heritage and be proud of what we can do. I have just been at a briefing on plans for CBC 2, Tele Deux, and I am very pleased that this is what may be coming along shortly and I would hope that we would not refuse all foreign media offers to assist us in our cultural development, but I think we should certainly give ourselves the chance to be first in the field and to welcome the opportunity and the pride in our own country and in what we can develop ourselves. This is a continuing subject of interest financially as well as culturally, naturally, and I would hope that the media club, which now covers the electronic media representatives as well as the press, would be in the forefront of assisting in developments if possible. Thank you. [Page 13] Mr. Nystrom: I wonder if you could possibly, if you have time to do a written brief to the Committee, to try and seek some advice on those questions, because I agree fully with you that we have to develop a Canadian culture and of course we need some input from other countries around the world because we are part of the global village, we have to have a Canadian identity and it is very important, and I would be very concerned if the way Section 2 is written that perhaps we could be denied through our constitution the right to develop fully the Canadian culture and pehaps you could look at that. I also wanted to ask your interpretation of a couple of other words in Section 2. I wanted to ask you what you think the interpretation in your opinion would be of other media of information. We have singled out here freedom of belief, opinion, expression, including the freedom of the press. I know what the press is, I think, but what would be the interpretation legally, in your opinion, of other media of information, what would that include? Ms. Hardy: I would expect that that would include the electronic journalism. The press is usually referred to as print media. Media is a very broad term that has had to be used because you cannot just refer to the press now because it covers a number of other representatives who inform, through one source or another, and I think the electronic media has an important place now in our culture because communications in this country is an aspect of helping unify the country, I think, by letting us get to know each other, not only through print but through electronic means.

Thank you, Mr. Joint Chairman, for giving the Media Club the opportunity to before this Special Joint Committee. As you will see from our submission, Media Club is concerned with the profession, therefore concern of members is with the proposed entrenchment in a charter of rights and freedoms of a new Canadian constitution, freedom of the press.

Mr. Hawkes: There is another conundrum inside your brief, and in contrast to the testimony we had the other day, They wanted to protect the rights of the fetus, your brief clearly says to us: protect the rights of the woman. There is another group involved in the abortion issue and that is medical personnel. Does your association have a position on their right to refuse to participate in any medical procedure, including the procedure of abortion? Dr. Waters: As far as I know, I am just trying to search my memory now, I think the Canadian Medical Association does have a clause in its Code of Ethics that allows physicians to withhold these services in terms of abortion. I do not think any physician can be expected to perform any act that he finds repugnant, and I am quite sure that, again, I am speaking from memory, that the Canadian Medical Association does respect that. Ms. Pelrine: That clause, however, goes on to say that should the physician, because of personal, moral, religious or ethical beliefs, be unable to perform a particular procedure, he or she is obligated to so inform the patient and to refer the patient to another physician who will perform the procedure. I am certainly prepared to accept that Code of the Canadian Medical Association. Mr. Hawkes: Would the freedom of conscience, which is also contained in this charter, be relevant to that issue? Mr. Kellermann: I think that a doctor might argue that he did not want to perform a particular operation or medical treatment of some kind on the basis of freedom of conscience, but that is fine, I do not think that in any way contradicts the position of CARAL, CARAL’s concern is that there be doctors available for the women who want to choose to have an abortion, and as long as that is guaranteed we are not in any way interested in forcing other doctors to involve themselves in that process. They just do not want other doctors standing in the way of women having that right. Ms. Pelrine: And who indeed would want to submit to any medical procedure performed by an unwilling physician?

In Section 2(b). that section gives the impression that the freedom of the press and the media is an individual right. Well, in fact, as we have already pointed out in our report, the freedom of the press is merely a mode by which the general freedom of expression is exercised, it is not a right of an individual as such.

Senator Austin: Under section 2, where you see Subparagraph (b), reference to freedom of thought, including freedom of the press and other media of information, Minister, is it the intention to in any way enlarge the present rights as they are so indistinctly understood of the press and other media in Canada? Is it, for example, now open to argue as to protection of sources in the hands of journalists and press and electronic media people? [Page 79] Mr. Chrétien: I do not know how the Court will interpret that, but we are dealing here, we are formalizing the guarantee that exists traditionally in this society concerning the freedom of the press and other media. What will be the interpretation of the Court in terms of the sources of information and so on, it would not be for me, I do not know what the Court will decide or if there will be some different circumstances that will have to be analyzed by the Court before rendering a judgment. Senator Austin: Your attempt here was to be neutral? Mr. Chrétien: As tnuch as possible.

One of the things that concerns me about our deliberation is our tendancy to look to the American experience, both in discussing jurisprudence, and it, concerns me a little because I think we are a unique country and our constitution has got to reflect our unique character. We have the built-in advantage, I think at this stage, as some members opposite have pointed out, of amending to some degree our constitution. We have the advantage of one hundred and some years of history, our own history not the American history, and it seems important to me that somehow we balance in this constitution the problems between individual rights and collective rights, such fundamental freedoms of association and religion.

Professor Magnet: But the jurisprudence in the United States to which you refer arises under a constitutional guarantee to nondiscrimination and also to a constitutional guarantee which prevents the establishment of religion. In this proposed resolution there is no antiestablishment clause, and therefore, it simply reflects the Canadian theory which has been true throughout the history of this country that the basic Confederation pact protects certain denominational reasons. Indeed, you might say establishes, but certainly we would not think an antiestablishment clause would be possible in Canada.

Do you think that in Section 2, taking Section 2(b), freedom of thought, belief, and opinion or Section 2(a) freedom of religion, will that protect parties in hospital who have been pressured into assisting an abortion if this is entrenched? Dr. DeVeber: I would hope not. I really cannot answer your question but I would think it is a genuine concern. Miss Campbell: Perhaps you did not quite understand. I was looking for a clause in the Bill of Rights or in the proposal that would allow persons to refuse to assist, and you may have misinterpreted it. Dr. DeVeber: I think that is an excellent idea. I would be in favour of putting that clause in. Miss Campbell: Particularly if Section 1 over-rode any statute. So you could see that freedom of religion perhaps being, or belief that the . . . Dr. DeVeber: I think belief is more important because there are more and more doctors I know who are against abortion on demand, not on religious grounds, but just because they believe it is wrong. So it would be beliefs of any kind. Mr. Cooper: May I make a comment here? When the present Criminal Code, the present abortion law was going through the Justice and Legal Affairs Committee [Page 42] there was an attempt made to insert a conscience clause. Now, the then Minister of Justice, Mr. John Turner, said that this would not be necessary. He could not conceive of any doctor or nurse being required to take part in an abortion. Experience has shown since then that he was dead wrong.

Mr. Black: It seems to me that the value of including freedom of conscience as well as freedom of religion is that it makes clear that people can have very deeply held beliefs that they might not call religious beliefs, but which are equally fundamental to them, and using the phrase “freedom of conscience” it gives them rights as well as people who deeply hold religious beliefs. It seems to me that the possibility that the Supreme Court of Canada or any other court would interpret that in a way which would hinder law enforcement is nonexistent. I cannot imagine the court giving it any such interpretation.

Mr. McGrath: Then how do we avoid getting into the kind of situation which has developed in the United States where, for example, in certain instances, the Lord’s Prayer recited in the classroom has been ruled by the courts to be unconstitutional? I say that as one who comes from a province which has, by law, a denominational system of education which is publicly funded. That law is enshrined in the constitution of Canada by virtue of the terms of union between Newfoundland and [Page 10] Canada, and indeed, is threatened by the provisions of the bill now before us. You have referred to that, though not in a specific way, and I will come back to that later on. Mr. Hammel: But what is the question? Mr. McGrath: The question is: if we are to entrench a Charter of Human Rights in the constitution, how do we avoid the situation whereby the courts of this country will, in fact, be almost in a position of a parallel legislature in terms of defining new laws by the constitution; for example. you could be restricted as to your hiring practices; as to your conduct in the classroom. I have cited the instance in the United States where the recitation of the Lord’s Prayer has, in certain circumstances, been declared unconstitutional. That is a dilemma I find myself in I am very much in favour of fundamental human rights being protected by law, but I have this dilemma. Mr. Hammel: I think whatever approach is taken, whether the statute approach or the Charter of Rights and Freedoms one, I think we simply have to recognize that there are individual rights, and then there are, in our case, organized group rights. In this case, we are dealing with denominational group rights, although, for example, as a Roman Catholic I do not in any way tend to judge anyone’s right to freedom of conscience, I do feel that when he does not abide by what the Roman Catholic religion teaches, then he is no longer a Roman Catholic, and, therefore, does not have the rights of the group. So I think we have to approach it from that particular point of view, that there are certain group rights which are at least equal to, or, perhaps, supreme over some individual rights. I do not think we can simply make it sound as if the individual rights are total.

Mr. Nystrom: My second and last question, Mr. Chairman, concerns another area where l have admired your organization- the whole question of the conscientious objector. You mentioned this morning, if I heard you correctly, two possibilities: one. enshrining in our constitution that no one should be compelled to take human life against one’s conscience, and you also referred to another option, which is in Federal Republic of Germany, that basically you enshrine that it pertains only to military service. I gather that you prefer the first option, which is more sweeping, that one of you mentioned earlier, the possibility of problems concerning policemen in their work, and firefighters in their work, and getting into the whole abortion controversy and euthanasia and so on. You did mention, I believe, two options: that no one should be compelled to take human life against one’s conscience, and the other option being what is enshrined in the German Republic which, I gather, says the same thing but as it pertains only to military service. Mr. Janzen: We would prefer the more general one in regard to taking human life. Mr. Nystrom: If the Committee or the government in its wisdom did not want to be as sweeping, the second would also cover a very important point, would it not? Mr. Janzen: We would be grateful for what there is.

Mr. Epp: Could I ask you, in page 5, taking your position a little further, you argue that the same rights should be extended to persons working in hospitals, people in the medical field. specifically people who because of conscience cannot accept the taking of life through abortion. Do you feel that the clause that you propose would in fact given them that protection they seek? Mr. Janzen: We are not sure about that. As it stands here we say it might have some implications for that concern, and I think it would suggest something in that direction but we are not sure of that and we have not sought a specific legal opinion. It is a concern to us that we recognize that that is not something on which we have complete clarity. Mr. Epp: Do you have practical demonstration of members of your organization. adherents to your organization of churches that form your constituency. that people have been put into that position, namely of performing medical acts which contravene their conscience and specifically their position that they do not have the right to take life in that form? Mr. Janzen: l do not know of specific personnel from our community. I do know that in the 1977 Badgley report there is [Page 51] some rather strong testimony from doctors and so on who werer subject to considerable pressure and that is the reference for it here.

A conscientious objector clause in the Charter might have implications for areas other than military service. People in police work or in medical work sometimes have to face the question of taking human life, too. The areas of euthanasia and abortion are examples but because of technological and other changes the number of areas may increase. In 1969, when the abortion issue was debated in Parliament, along with other amendments to the Criminal Code, it was emphasized that medical personnel would not be forced to be involved with them. Because of this, a conscientious objector clause, which was considered at the time. was viewed as unnecessary, However, the government’s Badgley study of 1977 found that some strong pressures are brought to bear on medical workers. [Page 48] We believe the right to abstain from the taking of human life should be extended in the area of abortion as well.

Mr. W. Janzen (Director General, Ottawa Office, Mennonite Central Committee, Canada): Thank you. This concern is somewhat different than the one which Mr. Nigh has explained. lf that one could be covered with a clause like, “No one shall be compelled against his conscience to take human life,” then the second one might be covered with a simple affirmation of freedom for religion without specifying that it be for individuals or for groups, thus leaving that question to be decided when problems in relation to that arise. As it is worded at the present time in the proposal, it is cast in explicitly individual terms and we are concerned that that might create difficulties which perhaps are not foreseen at the present time or even considered desirable. The written brief refers to several such difficulties and l will not go over that material, but l would say that these difficulties can arise also in relation to communities other than the Amish or Old Order Mennonites or Hutterites which are referred to in the brief. We know that for generations and centuries the phenomenon of people going off unto themselves for religious reasons to live a bit more as a community unto themselves is an experience that has been present in our civilization and probably will be present. and we would like to have that freedom respected. We are a bit concerned that by casting the provision for freedom of religion in individual terms there might be seine difficulties, as explained in the brief. We could go on and talk further about community rights and collective rights and some aspects that relate to the concerns of the native people as well, but I do not think at this point we would want to go into that. I would point out, however, that in a number of other constitutions or bills of rights the provision for freedom of religion is not as individual as it is in the one that is being proposed. I refer to the I960 Canadian Bill of Rights and there is a simple affirmation of freedom for religion without specifying the way it shall apply. The one to which Mr. Nigh has referred also is general on that point. The American constitution, although generally an individualistic document. is general on that point. It does not specify that it is exclusively for individuals and so on. So what we are asking basically is two clauses: one is a clause that would say something to the effect that no one shall be compelled against his conscience to take human life, and the other one would be at simple affirmation of freedom for religion without specifying that it be for individuals or communities, thus leaving that to the wisdom of the legislatures or the courts to deal with those problems as they might arise.

Our spiritual forefathers where the anabaptists of western Europe. Over 400 years ago they felt compelled to take a stand against the taking of human life in any form and to many of them it was contrary to their understanding of the teaching of scripture. For their beliefs and practice they suffered cruelly; many died. When our forefathers came to Canada around 200 years ago they appealed for and were promised exemption from military duty. The history of these negotiations which are very much abbreviated are contained in paragraphs on pages 3 and 4 of the brief which you have had in your hands. In World War I, the severe test of these provisions came. In the spring of I918 the German forces made one last gigantic assault on the Western Front and for a while it looked as if the Allied front would break. It was under the stress and desperation of that time that exemptions which had been written through Order in Council by government were cancelled and the young men of our churches had their faith and their convictions severely tested; many served periods in jail. I had hoped to bring along today a very close friend of mine who was my bishop for many years. Mr. B. J. Swalm who is 84 years of age. but he had other commitments and was not able to come. He could articulate his experiences during this war. One thing I remember, while he served as my bishop in the Niagara Area was that when he was visiting our area he would ask me to drive past St. Catharines Jail where he spent several months during World War I. Bishop Swalm was one of the founders of this organization, the Mennonite Central Committee. The experience in World War II was different and here I can speak from personal experience. because I was of draft age at that time and young men of my age were being called into service. My spiritual training and upbringing, church teachings, taught me participation in war was wrong but I had to make a decision at that time that I had to know what I believed personally and I had to make a personal decision. I went through weeks of study and soul-searching which reinforced my teaching and brought me to the decision that I could not take a human life. or be part of a life-taking organization. Now, in the Second World War, because of early representation to government by the leaders of our churches, an alternative service program was developed whereby our young [Page 47] men could serve in non-military forms of service such as reforestation, road-building, fire-fighting, agricultural work and some in ambulance and hospital work on the front lines. As l came through those years and in perspective I have two strong feelings. First of all I have a deep respect for the boys, for the integrity of the boys who were my friends and are still my friends. who did not feel as I and went into military service. and we today wish to acknowledge our deep respect for those who disagree with us in this area. The second was a great appreciation which I also hold today for a country where conscience is recognized and where opportunity was given for alternative forms of service of national value, and service that was helpful to society. I an thankful for a country where the right to be different is recognized: where a minority view does not endanger or dehumanize. So it is for this reason that we feel now in the formulation of a constitution in peaceful times apart from emotional pressures of a wartime society, that we include a clause in the constitution that would recognize the right of conscience that would lead one to abstain from the taking of human life. We are making this presentation today from our own experience and perspective as stated in the brief. which is prepared by Mr. Janzen and which I have briefly summarized. We believe in light of past experience and differences of interpretation and application of past government decisions that a clear and brief. concise statement in the constitution would be helpful and we urge the inclusion of such in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I might just call your attention to the statement that is written in the constitution of the Federal Republic of Germany; “No one may be compelled against his conscience to render war service involving the use of arms.”

Mr. McGrath: My question is, does Section 2 of the Charter in any way threaten the tax exempt privileges that you now enjoy as a church, in terms of any question that could be placed before the courts; because freedom of religion means freedom not be exposed to religion in certain circumstances, in other words, no religion in terms of interpretation can be construed as a religion, for the purposes of this section. Mr. Smith: Mr. Chairman, it had not occurred to us that this section would in any way threaten our tax exempt status, at least it had not occurred to me, and I do not see any inherent meaning in this. I think along with other sections of the Charter that the possibility for amendment could indeed threaten any of these sections and thereby affect the question before us.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or the “Mormon Church’, is a Christian organization with roots in Canada which go back to the early 1830s. There are at present approximately 85,000 members of the Church in Canada, with congregations in every province and the territories. We deeply appreciate the opportunity to appear before this Committee and to comment on some aspects of the proposed resolution respecting the constitution. At the onset, we wish to make it clear that as a church we take no position on the purely political aspects of the proposed resolution; our members are totally free to think and act according to their own individual wishes on those matters. Believing as we do that churches have a responsibility to provide and safeguard a moral framework in which their members can exercise their beliefs, we wish, however, to address some of the possible moral implications of the resolution. Our basic concerns relate to the potential impact of certain proposals within the resolution on the sanctity and strength of the family, on protection provided by society to women and children, on the relationships between courts and legislatures in making legal policy, and on the inviolability of fundamental freedoms. We can perhaps best illustrate these concerns by examining specific sections of the proposed resolution. In doing so, we wish only to point out concerns, not obvious and totally identifiable dangers. Indeed, it is in the vagueness of the wording of certain portions of the proposed resolution that the [Page 8] greatest dangers lie, because it is impossible to tell exactly what is meant or what was contemplated by the draftsmen. Section 2 of the proposed resolution deals with fundamental freedoms. We applaud the apparent intention of the proposals, believing as we do that “no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property and the protection of life”. Yet we must admit to an uneasiness about the extent to which the proposed resolution actually safeguards the essential freedom it so laudably espouses. Part V of the proposed resolution provides provedures for amending the constitution, either as a result of legislative resolutions or by referendum. These amending procedures apparently do not ensure that legislative action cannot sweep away those fundamental freedoms outlined in Section 2. We strongly believe that freedom of conscience, religion, thought, belief, opinion, expression, assembly and association must be very carefully safeguarded; subject only to the reasonable restraints commensurate with a democratic society, they must not be subject to the vagaries, no matter how well intentioned, of legislatures. Past history, our own and others, has taught us the need to place them above legislative action. Unless they are safeguarded, it would be possible, at some time in the future, for legislatures to deny them to one group or another in our society. The procedures for amending the constitution must, we submit, pay particular attention to the absolute need to protect those fundamental freedoms mentioned in Section 2 of the proposed resolution.

I would invite anyone to define what religion means in a comprehensive manner. I think that that term, while we know that certain religions, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism are religions, there will be many borderline cases where we do not know if those groups are religions or not. But that has not precluded the drafters of this Charter form including religion.

It appears therefore that the only alternative which now offers itself to the inhabitants of Lower Canada is a choice between dissolution pure and simple, or Confederation on one side, and representation by population on the other. And however opposed Lower Canada may be to representation by population, is there not imminent danger that it may be finally imposed upon it, if it resist all measures of reform, the object of which is to leave to the local authorities of each section the control of its own interests and institutions. We should not forget that the same authority which imposed on us the Act of Union, or which altered it without our consent, by repealing the clause which required the concurrence of two thirds of the members of both Houses in order to change the representation respecting the two sections, may again intervene to impose upon us this new change.

Her Majesty’s Government cannot but express the earnest hope, that the arrangements which may be adopted in this respect may not be of such a nature as to increase—at least in any considerable degree—the whole expenditure, or to make any material addition to the taxation, and thereby retard the internal industry, or tend to impose new burdens on the commerce of the country.

accustom the people to direct taxation

however, have said that they were in favor of direct taxation for the support of the local governments, because it would lead those who have to pay the taxes to look more closely into what was going on, and the manner in which their money was expended. (Hear, hear.) There seems also to have been a feeling in the Lower Provinces in favor of a legislative union, and the Hon. Mr. GREY seems to be combatting that idea. He says that with a legislative union, municipal institutions, and direct taxation in every province, would be the only means of getting along. He expressed himself as opposed to that and in favor of a Federal union, which he thought would afford them all the advantage that could be attained, commercially, by union, and would allow each province to retain control over its own local affairs. The local legislatures, he said, were to be deprived of no power over their own affairs that they formerly possessed. But in Canada it was represented that the local legislatures were to be only the shadow of the General Legislature—that they were to have merely a shadow of power, as all their proceedings were to be controlled by the Federal Government. That is the position taken by the advocates of the measure on this floor. So it seems that those gentlemen who have represented to us that they acted in great harmony, and came to a common decision when they were in conference, take a widely different view of the questions supposed to have been agreed upon, and give very different accounts of what were the views of parties to the conference on the various subjects. (Hear, hear.) In the Lower Provinces they were strongly opposed to direct taxation, while here it was present end as one of the advantages to accrue from the Federation. (Cries of No, no.) Well, Mr. SPEAKER, I say yes. That view of the case has been taken. If the amount allowed for the expenses of local legislation—the 80 cents per head—was found insufficient, the local parliaments must resort to direct taxation to make up the deficiency, while in tile Lower Provinces, it seems, nothing of that kind was to follow.

Another question on which the hon. member has also called us to account, relates to the export duties on timber and coals. In clause 29, which relates to the powers of the Federal Parliament, the third section reads as follows : This imposition or regulation of duties of customs on imports or exports, except on exports of timber, logs, masts, spars, deals, and sawn lumber from New Brunswick, and of coal and other minerals from Nova Scotia. The fact that this power has been conferred on the Government does not imply that it will be exercised. The power was granted simply because it might be necessary in certain cases mentioned. Now this is the reason for the second part of the clause which I have just read to the House, and which I cannot better explain than by citing some expressions of a speech by the Hon. the Minister of Finance on the subject. Nevertheless, as there are several honorable members in the House who do not understand English, I think it will perhaps be better to explain them in French. Here then was the thought of the Convention : as in New Brunswick the Government had found that it was a great disadvantage to collect the duties on timber according to the system formerly adopted, and they had substituted an export duty which superseded all other dues on that product, it was no more than right that this source of revenue should remain in New Brunswick, to which province it was an object of absolute necessity to defray its local expenses. In Canada we retain, under the new Constitution, our own method of collecting similar duties. As to New Brunswick, the duty on the article in question is their principal revenue, as coal is almost the sole revenue of Nova Scotia ; and if they had been deprived of them, they would have peremptorily refused to join the Confederation. (Hear, hear.) Their demand was perfectly just, and could not therefore be refused. Moreover, we have no right to complain, for they leave us all our mines and our lands, and we shall now, as heretofore, collect the proceeds for our own use and profit. The honorable member for Hochelaga says that it will be impossible to administer the affairs of the local legislatures without having recourse to direct taxation ; but a man of his experience ought not to have made that assertion. Instead of attempting to trade on popular prejudice, he ought to have admitted at once that the right granted by the new Constitution of levying direct taxes, is the same that already exists in the present Constitution ; it is the same right that all our municipalities possess.

reference to the meaning of the 5th sub-section of the 29th clause, which commits to the General Parliament ” the raising of money by all or any other modes or system of taxation.” Am I to understand that he General Government are to have the power of imposing local taxation upon the lands of the provinces ? HON. MR. CAMPBELL—The general national power of taxation is to be in the General Government.

Let us then have direct taxation, and what will be the result ? If there is a large expenditure on the part of the General Government, in addition to this taxation, political agitators will arise, who will cry out that the public burdens are unequally borne —(hear)—that two-thirds of the revenue is borne by the people living west of Quebec— that is, the population west of this city will, man for man, pay twice as much to the public exchequer as the population east of it.

system of taxation, my honorable friends opposite would have had a much better chance of success in blowing the bellows of agitation than they now have. (Laughter, and cheers.) The objection, moreover, was not confined to Lower Canada—all the Lower Provinces stood in exactly the same position. They have not a municipal system such as we have, discharging many of the functions of government; but their General Government performs all the duties which in Upper Canada devolve upon our municipal councils, as well as upon Parliament. If then the Lower Provinces had been asked to maintain their customs duties for federal purposes, and to impose on themselves by the same act direct taxation for all their local purposes, the chances of carrying the scheme of union would have been greatly lessened. (Hear, hear.) But I apprehend that if we did not succeed in putting this matter on the footing that would have been the best, at least we did the next best thing. Two courses were open to us—either to surrender to the local governments some source of indirect revenue, some tax which the General Government proposed to retain,—or collect the money by the federal machinery, and distribute it to the local governments for local purposes. And we decided in favor of the latter. We asked the representatives of the different, governments to estimate how much they would require after the inauguration of the federal system to carry on their local machinery.

I trust I commit no breach of discretion in stating that in Conference I was one of the strongest advocates for defraying the whole of the local expenditures of the local governments by means of direct taxation, and that there were liberal men in all sections of the provinces who would gladly have had it so arranged. But, Mr. SPEAKER, there was one difficulty in the way—a difficulty which has often before been encountered in this world—and that difficulty was simply this, it could not be done. (Hear, and laughter.) We could neither have carried it in Conference nor yet in any one of the existing provincial legislatures. Our friends in Lower Canada, I am afraid, have a constitutional disinclination to direct taxation, and it was obvious that if the Confederation scheme had had attached to it a provision for the imposition of such a

the second feature of this scheme as a remedial measure is, that it removes, to a large extent, the injustice of which Upper Canada has complained in financial matters. We in Upper Canada have complained that though we paid into the public treasury more than three fourths of the whole revenue, we had less control over the system of taxation and the expenditure of the public moneys than the people of Lower Canada.

But, sir, I am told that though true it is that local matters are to be separated and the burden of local expenditure placed upon local shoulders, we have made an exception from that principle in providing that a subsidy of eighty cents per head shall be taken from the federal chest and granted to the local governments for local purposes.

constitution of the Legislative Council, and insisted not only that it should have remained elective, but that the principle of representation according to population should also have prevailed. But who ever heard that in a Federal Constitution the Upper House should be arranged on that principle? If that view be the sound one, the better way would be to have but one House, for the only effect of having two Houses, both elected on the basis of population, would be that one would constantly be combating the other, and the wheels of government would unavoidably be brought to a stand-still. In such a case the more powerful members of the Confederacy would be wholly unrestrained, and would completely overwhelm the weaker. This was fully considered on the adoption of a Constitution for the United States, according to which it is well known that the smaller States are represented in the Senate by the same number of senators as the larger ones—there being two members for each. The same principle has been adopted in arranging the terms of this proposed union, and for the same reason; viz., to protect the weaker parties to the compact.

direct taxation, all the means whereby the industry of the people may be made to contribute to the wants of the state, it must be evident to every one that some portion of the resources thus placed at the disposal of the General Government must in some form or other be available to supply the hiatus that would otherwise take place between the sources of local revenue and the demands of local expenditure. The members of the Conference considered this question with the most earnest desire to reduce to the lowest possible limits the sum that was thus required, and I think the figures that I have already given to the House afford the best possible evidence that no disposition existed, at any rate on the part of our friends from the Lower Provinces

If, nevertheless, the local revenues become inadequate, it will be necessary for the local governments to resort to direct taxation ; and I do not hesitate to say that one of the wisest provisions in the proposed Constitution, and that which affords the surest guarantee that the people will take a healthy interest in their own affairs and see that no extravagance is committed by those placed in power over them, is to be found in the fact that those who are called upon to administer public affairs will feel, when they resort to direct taxation, that a solemn responsibility rests upon them, and that that responsibility will be exacted by the people in the most peremptory manner. (Hear, hear.) If the men in power find that they are required, by means of direct taxation, to procure the funds necessary to administer the local affairs, for which abundant provision is made in the scheme, they will pause before they enter upon any career of extravagance.

But this precedent could not be urged as an objection to Federation, inasmuch as it would be for the General Government to deal with our commercial matters. There could be no reason for well-grounded fear that the minority could be made to suffer by means of any laws affecting the rights of property.

It was desirable the General Government should have the control of the medium through which the trade and commerce of the country was carried on, and that in the establishment of banks, the issue of paper money and in offering to the public the paper representative of their labor, in whatever part of the country, there should be the same legislative security for the people

the Central Government would have the power of raising money by all the other modes and systems of taxation—the power of taxation had been confided to the General Legislature—and there was only one method left to the Local Governments, if their own resources became exhausted, and this was direct taxation.

It would have the regulation of all the trade and commerce of the country, for besides that these were subjects in reference to which no local interest could exisit, it was desirable that they should be dealt with throughout the Confederation on the same principles.