cool - an anecdotal example could be good here

This is neat - compare this learning setting as a distributed system with the two systems described in the Moll et al. (household and classroom - they do some explicit comparative work in the conclusion). It's a pretty different system of knowledge, with FoK playing a slightly different role.

I wonder if some of this might go up in the Purpose section where you give other introductory info about Tumblr.

Is this a claim? A hypothesis? Or maybe it's sort of a tacit way of referencing your question? Maybe you can convert it to a question about how FoK are recruited, deployed, distributed, etc?

maybe give us a sense (examples) of what hashtags (i assume you knew of some and then maybe developed ways to discover/follow new ones?) same with other searches. just a couple sentences to give a little idea.

this is nice development

I'm not sure what you're saying here - what the "this" that is the alternative to traditional classrooms?

close quote here, no need for the period

as a first mention of this term, you'll want to cite Crowley et al

I don't think you have to do this, but you can if you want to. I think it's enough to try to make contributions to thinking about how learning happens in general. school doesn't have to be end game.

But I don't necessarily see what you're doing here as distinguishing a type, but instead arguing for a whole new category of participation/teaching. intent participation was about something learners do in their process of learning. From what I understand you are talking about what others do to support learning. is that right?

not necessarily true - if the framing illuminates the case in some way that can inform some question in the field that would be important also. As Molly noted the other day, it just happens that I tend to spend more time doing the former.

I'm not sure this is true. I think this lens is meant to focus attention on interactions between participants (see p 146 of the chapter)

I see what you're doing with this phrase now. I like the idea - I want to suggest you consider: 1) use one of kirshner's categories, since he is talking about types of guided participation or 2) spend more time unpacking Rogoff's frame of guided participation to justify your use of the term

this sentence doesn't quite parse for me. I don't know if it's just because it's long or because it needs some tweaking

This is a good type of citation to include a page number, even if you're not using a quote.

I'm struggling to make sense of what this paragraph is about, or what work it's doing. Maybe some more explicit "hand waving" text to signal what it's about?

this seems like you are describing some hierarchical aspects. Maybe reword the "rather" in the first sentence?

This is sort of a drive-by citation. What is the usefulness of the Rogoff reference here? Be explicit. Also, don't forget that for Rogoff guided participation was a plane of analysis, not a type of learning. so, how are you using it?

This feels abrupt. Maybe include that it's one of the departments at CratEx or something like that?

I get that this is how you're focusing your attention, but the way the end of the paragraph is structured makes it sound a little like you are saying lpp is all about observing. Probably a small edit would fix that.

is this possible with a teaching curriculum?

Something you want to do in this project or eventually? This project could start you off with a good description of participation in prayer services, before you hypothetically extend your study to other contexts.

This is another big can of worms. Hard to answer here, but good to keep as a signpost

Another way to ask this question might be to ask if there is an alternate CoP for women, since they cannot legitimately participate in many, even peripheral ways. If so, what is this CoP? This could get at your ideas about their meaningful ways of engaging, and could recast the idea of leadership roles? Some feminist theory argues about looking for and honoring women's power rather than continuing to legitimize male power (I'm saying that wrong. Maybe you've read some feminist theory?)

absolutely

in relation to this and daniel's above question about guidelines - i guess it does help to be able to describe the role of moderators in how guided participation works here

so are you treating individuals' knowledge as funds and also a contribution to the subreddit another fund?

access to what? I would argue that, yes, you had access to the physical space of the cafeteria, but certainly not any of the social practices.

unpack this a little. In what ways do you think students are in the center and adults on the periphery? Of what? It is interesting because you are using the spatial metaphor of LPP in relation to an actual spatial analysis.

interesting that you use "upper hand" to describe when students have authority, but "authority" to describe it for adults?

haha. ok, i love that you are trying out this analogy. Push it further. Write a sentence or two summarizing the key features of the snaking incident that you think make it a good analogy, then expand your second sentence here ("The students edited the space...") to compare your incident with your summary of Zack getting snaked.

cool - again, begins to answer my questions about authority

this, in part, answers my previous annotation

I think this assumes adults carry all the authority, right? Now, if you shift to thinking that someone(s) always has(ve) authority in a setting? How might you rephrase this? This has implications for thinking about spatial production.

again, of what? It's tacit for you, but worth making explicit.

remember that, in the Ma & Munter piece, we argue that space is produced in activity. This is related to felipe's monster annotation - what is the activity here that contributes to the editing/production of space? As felipe argued with learning, it's not just eating lunch that's going on for the kids.

this phrase, even if you're not deliberately using it that way, implies a psychological lens - each person who uses the space just "knows" about those two tables. Now try thinking about how you might describe this phenomenon through a spatial production lens. (We can talk about this before/during/after class next Wed, but I want you to try it out on your own before I tell you what I'm thinking)

haha. unlucky for the students. convenient for anxious adults.

really nice (material) spatial description

be careful about throwing this term around too liberally. What about the different groups makes you call them different CoP? Are they just social groups? Or is there a really good analytical reason to give them the label of CoP? (I am not saying that there is not, but I want to make sure that you have one before you use the term)

I think you might phrase this as visitors who do not have the necessary (or well-aligned) funds of knowledge to make sense of the explanation.

I see now where you were going with the first question. I think you might think about articulating why it makes a difference to have these as different categories.

I think you could elaborate on this more

I'm not sure "reverse" captures what you're trying to get at here - my initial impression of this was more like demonstration

I think it's important to say that this is a secondary analysis of existing data. You're not planning on going back to do new interviews, are you?

I wonder if you could engage in some of these more natural conversations as a starter, and if they seem willing, ask if they wouldn't mind answering a few questions?

This is an interesting conjecture - Here's an alternative, which is that I often hear seasoned readers ask others what they are reading and for suggestions. I don't have a conjecture about why this might be though.

ah... "newcomers to what?"

It's neat to imagine the ebbs and flows of these strategies (intentional or not) for guidance, either in relation to the ongoing work or to formative evaluation of learning (or both)

This is a slightly different (orthogonal?) focus from the previous paragraph - here you're looking at learners' trajectories and how they might pass through /r/learnprogramming. Do you have access to users' histories across communities?

this is an interactional norm, right? to let people know that you're cross posting?

anything else beyond content? norms for posting? interacting? helping?

see fr 07 for my comment on the wording of the question.

I'm not sure L&W would describe it this way. I think this is a nice illustration of how you can be an oldtimer but not necessarily an "expert" - remember the idea of legitimate peripheral participation is that people can participate legitimately and peripherally in lots of different ways - so maybe this oldtimer was just encountering a different trajectory of participation

nice series of images

What are the funds of knowledge here? I would call the map and the upcoming stops representations and resources, but not funds of knowledge. you might say the newcomer's funds of knowledge were not well-aligned enough with the knowledge needed to make use of the map, so he had to ask the other passenger's help.

you might say "apparent" instead of suspect, if I'm getting your meaning right.

ok. i like that you list what you imagine you'd need to do as well.

so this is seems like a focus on resources

I think I mentioned this in an earlier field report - this doesn't quite make sense as a research question, this is more like a question I might ask you as an assignment. What you write about below doesn't seem to match the question, which makes me think we just need to figure out how to articulate the question rather than actually work on choosing the question.

Ok - but you need to use some concepts from the course in talking about space. How are you thinking about use of space? The one Ma & Munter described, about arena, setting, and activity? Or more like production in the Nespor sense? Sarah gave you some ideas in the last field report, you can take some of those up if you'd like. But you need to make sure you are drawing from course readings (see rubric for independent project in they syllabus)

I'm also wondering where learning might come in?

ok

I don't think just making assumptions based on people's appearance is really adequate research. In the course our data has often been observation-focused, but we have relied on observation of activities, listening in, etc. I think the kind of coding you're suggesting is too far away from being able to make any real inferences. I think you need to find a way to interview or survey people if you want to stick with these questions. However, I think it would be a much more interesting study to reframe your questions. If they become more aligned with some of the course concepts, observational data will be more useful.

maybe if we talk through what these manifestations are, it would help think about what concept(s) to use to get at them.

I think it's more about using funds of knowledge than having them - it might be that in Tumblr bloggers all serve as different kinds of mediators for each other, under different circumstances.

It's an interesting case because even if there are oldtimers or experts or more experienced bloggers here, those folks depend on everyone else's interest and engagement for their success. So the division of labor is different than in Moll et al.'s classroom, where children are learning specific content, mediated by the teacher, all deploying their own funds of knowledge and benefitting from each other's.

This is a nice way to combine them. totally sensible to me

really nice

I like this idea that you might learn something about tumblr and about the concept of islands of expertise at the same time.

is the island here social justice or more specific islands within that general world?

great. I think another feature of islands of expertise is that it may span domains/disciplines. so, having a deep interest in dinosaurs might mean you know all their names and what they all eat and which historical periods (eras? I dunno) they lived in, and have seen all the movies with dinosaurs in them. But you might not dip into their biology or their biological relations to each other, etc. So having an island of expertise in dinosaurs might stretch and be shaped in lots of different (interest-driven and parent-mediated) ways, somewhat different from being interested in amateur astronomy, which sort of has a recognizable, bounded discipline (despite possibilities for different lines of practice).

I think this is a good fit for your study.

of what? what will you make sure you try to capture (in terms of events, or how your frame your recordings)

desettle?

This might be a hard one to answer, since you aren't planning to do an analysis of norms of schooling at the school, are you? However, I'd love for you to point at this question in your concluding statements in your presentation/implications section of your proposal.

this seems more like a meta-question for yourself. I think you can stick to a question more like the one you imply in your Theoretical Lens section, where you talk about the types of participation etc. I think that's al buried in this question, you might just rephrase it.

ok just kidding, Nasir & Cooks is useful here. Just make sure that either 1) you're not conflating resources for participation with resources for learning; or 2) you conflate them purposefully, and you explicitly say why it makes sense to overlap participation and identity/practice-linked identity.

great. I especially like the explicit implication that this isn't a "ready made" CoP, that students are (re)producing it in activity

remember the Nasir & Cooks is about identity resources specifically, not resources for participation in general. You can still use this idea of resources, just drop the citation.

I think you can argue that this is a sensible unit because they've gone through a whole "cycle" (design, build, compete)

of what? how will you focus your field notes to answer your questions?

you may also think about which resources are sort of "designed" into the system or offered by OGS/NYU/government, and which are recruited/adapted by students, and which sort of emerge.

maybe this sentence needs a phrase to help complete it? Or you could take out the "how"?

this also situates the group and students' participation in it within a figured world of courses, coursework, student-hood, etc, right?

neat discursive analysis - you could use some of Heath's little league as a case comparison

are there other material resources? for example, the configuration of chairs?

do you have an initial conjecture abotu what some of these might be?

This has a similar flavor to the "against authority" phrasing - it sort of assumes that the normative practices/behaviors take place in the classroom, under the careful orchestration and watchful eyes of teachers. A multi-sited sensibility might try to put students more at the center, and treat in- and out-of-classroom practices as symmetrical. In other words, the question would go more like "how are practices different and how are they linked across different settings?"

when? just during lunch? or during different times when it is in use as well?

you also mentioned classroom and library in the first part of your theoretical lens section. Do you still plan to use these sites? how?

which ones? how will you choose? i recommend you audiotape these so you can get some nice direct quotes

of what?

practice of what?

now you're bringing in Nasir & Cooks, which is cool (and appropriate), but you might be biting off a little too much for the scope of this project.

I commented about this in FR7, but it bears repeating here, especially as you're incorporating Bell et al. as part of your theoretical framework. Rather than assuming adults/teachers are authority always, reframe to think about who has authority when and where.

Bell et al. focus on social structures, but the Ma & Munter focuses on interplay between material arrangments/arena (physical space) and social space/activity. You do not have to keep using the Ma & Munter if you don't want to do the spatial analysis this way. You can talk about producing social spaces, I think, by saying that you are thinking about production of space with less of a focus on materiality.

I really like this combination. In fact I like it so much that it happens to be a combination that I've been using in some of my own recent work :)

cool

I think the Ball & Heath might also help you out here.

not sure what you mean by this. "how" feels very vague to me

I think you lose out when you focus on newcomers rather than just learning in general. How will you define newcomers? Why is this group important to focus on?

not sure what this means? I think you are using the word "sociocultural" in a way that I'm not understanding.

above you used the quote from the Rogoff et al. chapter to say that guided participation is a perspective, but here you're using it as a type of social relation. Maybe reframe your question?

you will need to be clear about what construct of identity you are using.

ok, but what exactly IS the perspective?

social norms related to what?

not sure what this means?

For assignments, if you repurpose text, you should probably indicate that you are doing so.

be careful here - peripherality does not necessarily mean being a newcomer. Don't use them synonymously - really think about what peripheralities there might be here, and how any of them might have to do with being a newcomer. One does not imply the other.

Please check APA to make sure you are doing your in-text citations correctly. Both the year and page number are misplaced here

?? I don't see it there

It might be useful to use the Heath little league piece as a case comparison for this part, in relation to your research questions 2 & 3 (although I can imagine it informing RQ1 too)

test

this is pretty different from the exploratorium, since there's not necessarily some "content" or correct understanding that the Whitney is hoping visitors will come away with after interacting with each object/exhibit. Or, rather, if there is, it's much less obvious to us.

I think this could be taken as a controversial statement, but I agree that it seems to be the Whitney's take (except maybe you shouldn't touch it)

so there is an emergent aspect of the ecology of action, as people engage. not just built into the physical environment. Cool.

cool set of questions

worthwhile comparison

From an IA methods point of view, this is ok - you might demonstrate through a multi-modal analysis that he and his activity become a relevant part of the interactional space for her, and you might do a micro-analysis of their (inter)actions to show that they are, indeed, sharing the experience in more than a coincidental way.

cool - i wonder what research design strategies we could use to study this

neat connection

nice summary of the concepts!

did you guys know you could add pictures to annotations?

echoes of the Nespor piece here,

This definition of young people as people who 'don't have much to do' in public reflects the drying up of safe, unprogrammed outdoor settings and community-regulated interiors accessible to kids, and their replacement by enclosed spaces with strong borders controlled by institutions centred outside the neigbourhood. Surveillance by adults has intensified... (p. 27)

I think it could be useful to think about IP also in relation to "overhearing" (change "hear" to "see"), and also the categories of talk that IP is sometimes punctuated with in this context. I also wonder if there is a version of IP that's flipped, with relative oldtimers intently observing newcomers with the intention of participating eventually.

As a side note, Rogers sometimes uses the phrase intent legitimate peripheral participation (ILPP)- i don't know if it would be useful to you here.

So guidance is distributed here, and rather than being structured/offered from the top down (in Kirshner's cases I think the adults tended to decide how guidance worked) in /r/learnprogramming it seems like learners have more agency in deciding on the form/sources of guided participation/guidance. This is a neat case because you can learn something about the context and maybe also add on to Kirshner's categories of guided participation

I wonder how you'll decide what counts as success and what counts as failure

yes- speaks to the identity piece of lpp (learning includes becoming a certain kind of person) as well as forms of peripheral (consumer, comm members) to more full (leaders, innovators) participation.

you don't list any specific questions in relation to this issue - you outline the problem really nicely, but having a question or two might help us see how you feel the lens will help you.

This is not the only possibility, but I might suggest a question that addresses different forms of legitimate peripheral participation possible - this might illuminate some of the questions you have about how it is that roles have been created for women and more central/full forms of participation are made available, yet you still see what, for you, is a puzzling lack of involvement from women.

another that comes to mind is related to access to participation for different participants.

given your background knowledge of this community, when you give your presentation it'll be a good idea to position yourself in relation to the community/setting. I say this because you have knowledge of what's going on that comes separately from your data collection for the study, and readers would want to know that.

to what extent does this distinction matter in a significant way to members?

I'm not sure I remember this - can you find exactly where it is?

cool - great argument for access to participation, no matter how "trivial" it may seem to experts (or snobby elitist types)

hm.. so in order to maintain an identity when not engaged in the activity that the identity is linked to, you need some sort of marker that travels outside the setting. In this case, pictures that others can see. I can see how this can be taken cynically (they are working "too" hard to perform the identity, maybe instead marking them as "posers"), or it can be seen as a typical form of identity work. I wonder when this kind of act is interpreted as one or the other.

nice contrastive case

great

really nice conjecture

cool - good specification

could probably be more specific here. Depending on the CoP, access to verb the collection could include lots of different things. What kind of CoP is it if we say "access to learning how to clean the collection" or "access to appreciating the technical composition of the collection pieces" vs "access to enjoying viewing the collection"?

I think you could "try on" both communities and then get different analyses depending on which you use. For example, if "American art lover" is the CoP, access to participation for newcomers looks pretty different from if it's "museum visitors." Success rates of fuller participation would probably look pretty different too..

This, and your final sentence about agency, hint at some more specific research questions. What, exactly, will you find out about "how we do it"? This is a little more specific than the question you ask at the beginning (how is the training designed and are its intended outcomes met)

This is a sort of a cursory analysis of some of the activities using Kirshner's categories. I can see a few directions you could take this. What do you think your specific research questions are, given this lens?

I also wonder if fiction-reading might be counted as a line of interest or line of practice within a larger community of readers? Not sure. I think that treating it one way or another would buy you different analytical leverage.

i'm thinking about how to get at something like this in the bookstore, in particular.

yes, i definitely have short-term pursuits (reading through a series, or an author) for example, versus getting into particular genres. I also tend to read more YA fiction during the school year, when my work load is heavier and I don't want to get emotionally invested in a long narrative.

so, since your project takes place in one particular bookstore, a relevant question might be something like, what kind of community is this one, and what kinds of participation take place here? additionally, you might find traces of other sites of participation in readers'/shoppers' activity here - what are they, what kinds of connections are they, what's the interplay? how might the combination support particular lines of practice?

I like that you are developing a specific way of deciding who counts as an oldtimer vs a newcomer. Likely as you continue to think about your own experiences and through your observations (and interviews? not sure if you're plannign this) you will revise/refine these.

i wonder if you could get at this partly (in addition to your "observations") through asking participants (through their "ask" links or by making a post) about their goals in engaging in social justice content on Tumblr. This could help you see what forms of activity they see as important in the community.

so it would probably matter why you're asking the question. what is it that makes it useful to you to determine who is a oldtimer, or a particular type of full participant? that could help you figure out who counts as an oldtimer vs a newcomer.

really nice summary

I think I need more info to make the connection from the previous paragraph to this sentence.

i need to know more about the contrast you're making here. attaining knowledge from the oldtimers could take the form of intent participation as well. so what's the alternative you're conjecturing about?

I think that this context is one where there is clearly an "insider" language, that is both part of learning to participate here and also an indicator of oldtimer status and more central forms of participation.

hmm, i wonder if the Ball & Heath dances reading this week gave you any ideas. Unfortunately none of the readings this week really address the question I think you're getting at here.

the romance chapter in the Holland et al. could be helpful here

Try to think through what "identity" means for your study. The quote from Holland et al. helps, but it is more about the relationship between identity and participation/activity, rather than what identity IS.

In what way? Be explicit so we can know what this sentence is about for you.

make sure you say both the pages the quote spans

missing a piece of the quote here

I think what you mean here is that the content of learning is aligned with the activity they are doing, right? as opposed to school, where the thing you're learning is not necessarily the same as the activity that you're participating in (e.g., listening to a lecture). Rather than saying "the situated learning" (folks would respond, "all learning is situated in some context) you might want to rephrase to be clear about what you mean.

good summary sentence - helps me understand what aspects of the learning context you're focusing on.

This implies to me the possibility for "oldtimers" with different levels of ability. This is worth exploring - what other aspects of participation are implicated in more and more full participation?

I'm having trouble understanding how you are using this. Typically we talk about the Funds of Knowledge that learners bring to their settings from their home/community lives. From this paragraph it seems more like you are just talking about resources in the environment?

How will you know who is who? You don't want to just guess or make inferences. It seems like to do this you will need to do some interviews and focused observations.

Say briefly how you are thinking about these concepts?

I'm not totally sure what this means - it depends on what theories of learning, how you use them, etc.

I think you need to fine tune your question some, and think more specifically about how the concepts you choose illuminate particular aspects of your setting

cool - what links might you make between funds of knowledge and identity development?

ok, so this speaks to the "broader community" comment I made above.

ah, that seems to be information of some kind

You could also think about ID development in relation to a broader community, e.g. becoming an international student or becoming a particular type of international student

As we go you'll want to be able to say what this means for you (you can draw directly from Nasir & Cooks or stretch their ideas some to include others)

We talked about this already, but it's ok if you don't find or have direct access to the CoP.

Another possibility to ask this question is to ask about structural resources, or social structures, or other aspects material/social organization that supports or constrains learning

You could try out a production or editing of space analysis also (Nespor or Ma & Munter).

I also wonder about different kinds of robotics club identities (what Nasir would call practice-linked identities)

careful when you phrase it like this - remember, everything can be considered as LPP, even passive school-like learning. So what's the form that you're really thinking of?

I like that you specify "local" here - You could also talk about them in relation to a broader community of afterschool robotics enthusiasts, in which case the analysis would look different. so it's good to be specific.

do you really mean to say "limited" here or is this a typo?

what if we included this idea as part of our understanding of "true public spaces"

space of official representaions

This reminds me of some analysis of picture-taking at the Whitney Museum one of you (Felipe?) did.

I'm interested in how Nespor positions himself with the kids here

FoK!

I had an idea about this - beyond interviewing international students to see if they might be willing to share some experiences they've had during WIH, you could ask staffers if they'd be willing to do "mock" WIH with you, where you pretend you have some sort of problem and see how they support you in sorting it out.

Wow, this is a really rich way to think of the context of these students' activities in the OGS. Overlapping worlds with sets of rules/constraints, resources, motivations, etc. Your analysis could ask how students figure some of these overlapping concerns into a world of "international student," and how WIH at OGS supports/shapes developing identities as international students, or something like that.

could be shifting forms of existing identities?

So the museum exhibit itself only provides partial access to the CoP - you can't be a full participant by only being super engaged and an expert in this exhibit. cool.

Nice - turning the "old" in "oldtimer" on its head

Neat - the CoP doesn't necessarily have to be tied to a place. You're defining it as engagement with a topic.

this has something to do with access to participation (and FoK!) - how about forms of participation? kinds of identities?

so try to say something summative about this. What does this say about a form of participation here? or kinds of identities participants might develop?

It's so interesting how different your experience was from mine. As soon as I walked in a greeter asked me if I wanted to buy tickets, and sent me to the ticket line. Then, as the cashier gave me my ticket, he told me which floors were undergoing exhibit switches. So "access" from this point of view can be quite variable! (it's also worth noting that I didn't actually need any of this information, but got it all, while you did need it, and didn't get any of it)

extra points!

i have no idea who dominic west is. is it really him?

interpret?

neat. i wonder how this changes when it gets really crowded. the resources for understanding how to engage, and the norms, sort of shift then, i think.

i wonder if, in some way, the "intimidating" feel of the space helps support this consciousness. If museums were more comfortable spaces, like your living room, you might forget not to lean on stuff or touch it or crack open your coke in the middle of the room?

uphold?

ok, i buy it!

yes, noticing that there may be some overlap helps to shake out what kind of conceptualization for "identity" might be useful here.

who would do that?

you could say relative oldtimer here

great