what is second order science and i'm sure we're gonna again go into it in this like fractal convo but and how does everyone play a role in it right so 00:24:50 so traditional science would be first order science is the the scientist is removed from the experiment that is an observer to the experiment 00:25:03 maybe the scientist sets up the experiment but then steps back and watches the you know the results unfold and it just observes the results and then you know does the statistics or whatever on the results and 00:25:16 then records the the uh the knowledge gain the aim of that is to build knowledge and you know that's wonderful and fantastic and terribly useful and 00:25:29 important and that is mostly what science has done over the you know over the last few hundred years or so uh second order science is a little bit different it is 00:25:41 the science i would say that is really appropriate for for today for our problems today in second order science the the aim is to change 00:25:52 you know change the system change the it's more about unfoldment of an experiment rather than getting to the end a certain goal of an experiment the scientist is part of the experiment 00:26:05 it's reflective in nature it's intrinsically reflective and it and it really represents a partnership between the science world and and the stakeholders so it's a little bit more like 00:26:18 engineering in a sense as more of a flavor of engineering in that there's a group of stakeholders who want some you know want something to happen and uh the science world is engaged in 00:26:31 building that but it's part it's like a you know series of learning together and reflecting on what is important and what is of value 00:26:42 so it's very much value driven which which is unlike first order science it's not particularly value driven so the the the aim is to change and it's value driven and the science scientists are part of 00:26:55 the experiment really interesting that reminds me of of um working uh for the first time really closely with someone outside of academia and then their insistence to include stakeholders in the conversation very 00:27:11 early and that was something that i didn't see as a practice around me in academia so i didn't see it as an affordance i didn't see it as an opportunity in my projects and then when i kind of 00:27:22 was like well i could contact anyone early on potentially and maybe even include them in the project that's um then you realize how closely clustered 00:27:33 all not available have been organized and so it's really interesting and uh and as you pointed out like there still 00:27:52 is a role for the first order of science because it's sometimes you need to make the measurement like first order cybernetics the thermometer we need to keep the temperature range second order is it the 00:28:04 right thermometer you know third order should we even be tracking a thermometer there's a space right for all right what is what do we really want what do w what do we really value yeah and and maybe i should just inject here too that 00:28:17 um that you know it if if the science world is going to be involved in in a value question it 00:28:28 really just has to be like transparent out front like this is what we're doing as opposed to more uh you know obtuse we're actually making value statements 00:28:43 but we're sort of hiding them in first order science language you know so it just has to be transparent this is what we're doing this is what it's about we're we're learning together we're evolving solutions to 00:28:56 real problems that's that humanity has and uh everything is like transparent and clear and above board and if it's done that way then it's i think could be extremely useful and it's 00:29:11 is just what the world needs actually because there are serious serious as we'll talk about you know like overwhelmingly serious problems that we face i don't know how or if we can solve them 00:29:24 and if we're not engaging you know the scientific world some of the brightest minds on the planet if we're not engaging them then you know we're we're not going to get the kind of solutions that might be 00:29:36 you know i mean we're better off engaging the science world in these questions along with communities right because that yep i i was talking to you no no no it's fun that's fine this okay 00:29:50 yeah yeah okay just one short on that is it's actually a really respectful way for science to approach this question of like we'll be ready as scientists or as systems thinkers 00:30:01 or as modelers will come to the table of policy and value discussion when we have a transparent model that's actually going to be adding value rather than potentially 00:30:12 being a vector for some non-transparent force to have undue influence on discussions that really matter so it's it's um i hope this conversation helps people 00:30:24 rethink how science could be involved in these policy discussions because those are going to be the exact terms that we're going to be talking through so right right and when we talk about the second paper we'll get more 00:30:37 we'll talk a little bit more about uh second order science and its role and there's citations there for anyone that's that's interested