10,000 Matching Annotations
  1. Jun 2021
    1. sabel: Yeah. No, I think that's really fair. A couple of closing questions, you said both the US and the Mexico has contributed to your identity and your mentalities. Do you feel Mexican or American?Dan: On most times, American.Isabel: Most times American. Why is that?Dan: In the US, that's where I create my lifestyle. The point of view is based of your lifestyle, who you hang out with, why you hang out with them, what you're capable of doing for some people or some others, not. Over in the States, I would have a weekend where I would go out, party with my wife and the next day I will go to a very expensive restaurant and buy her a bracelet or a necklace, earrings and spend my money with who I love—my family, my mom, my sisters. I would be very happy being in that restaurant and everybody around the table and just take care of the tab and not worry about it. I think that way. In here, in Mexico, even though that is a little bit harder, I actually do the same thing. I hang out, I go out to dance, I go to the karaokes. Back then, in the US, I would go to the lake, do a barbecue. And here, I go to Acapulco. It's a lot better. I don't see the negative things—I mean, I don't always focus onto the negative things because negative things will ruin your life. Focus in what you have, who you are, what you're capable of doing, and what you're capable of helping others about, with this, with that. If people see you as a valuable person for the experience you have at this point, they're more than welcome to get help from myself. But not a lot of people think the same way.

      Identity, American;

    2. Dan: On the news on the US. There were tents and then they were made to wear pink underwear and that's how they were treated there in Maricopa in Arizona. Well, here, it was tents as well. I know I was a load to my family's shoulders. I know they had to come over and visit me. They had to send me money. When my wife was selling all my tools and all my property, I just told her, "Send me $150." I bought a lot of ... It's called commissary, which it's a lot of food, quick soups, beans, Cokes, all that. I bought tons. And it is common that people that has money, they put a little store. You sell a Coke and when pay day comes, they give you a Coke and they give you a soup. For everything that you sell, it is a soup as interest. So I start building up my store inside and I didn't have to bother my mom or my sisters, my wife. I was supporting myself over there. That happened throughout the two years and half. By the time it was three months before I got out, I start eating all my food with all my friends, the inmates that I kind of got to know as friends. There were other people that had stores and they were about to leave about the same time. So we were eating everything and so we were sharing with all the inmates there.Isabel: You created your own mini business again inside to support yourself so your family wouldn't have to. Can you tell me about ... Were your friends in similar situations, they were undocumented and sent here?Dan: Yeah. The people that were there, they were undocumented as well. And they have a little bit more years to serve than me. There were some of them that they just that were very few months depending on what they did. There were people that were just pulled over because they didn't have a taillight. And it was very, very unbelievable stories that you would hear. Everybody was there for different reasons.

      Detention, ICE, treatment by, other inmates, guards; Arizona;

    3. Dan: Well, it's like any kid that wants your mom to be in a very stable situation. I always wanted to buy a house for my mom and just give her peace of mind. But at one point, I tried to do it, but she always lived with my sisters. But I tried. I didn't accomplish it. I was not able to make it, but it was part of my plans.

      Dreams;

    4. Dan: Well, at the beginning I remember there was a lot of ... Well, now it's called bullying. Back then, it was just making fun of. ... because I didn't know how to speak English well. I didn't know how to communicate. I didn't know how to make myself understood. It was just a lot of language barrier, I would say.Isabel: Was the school helpful with language, or did you have to learn it on your own?Dan: Well, high school that's when I got ESL, which was English as a Second Language. And I remember teachers tried to help. That's when I got the help. But before then, it was just hardly.Isabel: So they didn't have any ESL for elementary or middle school?Dan: No.Isabel: Wow. How did you pick up English, then?Dan: Well, just hanging out with my classmates. And my sister was with me and my cousin, so we would make our own little group and we would hang out with all the Hispanic guys and then we'd encourage each other to just start talking English. We had to start somehow.Isabel: And when you said there was bullying because of the language barrier, was that why you formed those groups with people who also spoke Spanish?Dan: Well, yeah. You feel more comfortable with Hispanic people. They try not to make fun of you because they know how it feels. They've being in that situation before. We try to help each other and just stick together.

      Time in the US, school, elementary, learning English, ESL, bullying, making friends, discrimination;

    1. So, when she died, it was just horrible for both of us. I cannot describe how I felt that day. [Pause]. But mostly that didn't hurt as much as when my grandpa died. That didn't hurt as much. It was like a blow to the face when they… [Pause]. It's still hard for me to talk about this kind of stuff. So, I'm sorry if I just tell a little bit, it's just, I don't want to start crying.Anita: It's okay to cry you know.Luis: Not for me. It's okay. So, I received the news that he had cancer too. He was developing cancer.Anita: Your pa?Luis: He was developing cancer and it already had started developing. What's the name of this thing when the cells just start going crazy and they start—Anita: Metastasizing.Luis: Metastasizing. So, he had three months to live. That's what the doctor said.Anita: And how old were you then?Luis: I was about to turn sixteen.

      family, grandparents; illness, cancer; feelings, grief, sadness

    2. Luis: But the worst part was knowing that I could not go back as easily as I would like to because I was not a citizen. When I was twelve, my pa used to explain to me what was I doing there, or what role I had in that society. And it was difficult because knowing that no one liked me because I didn't have any papers, all that hate that people has to refugees or foreigners. Because whenever I went to school… Here is an example. There was—I never knew her name‚ but there was a girl that's committed suicide because she was, they bullied her every day. She was bullied every single day of her life and that just made her feel horrible, like crap.Anita: Where was she from?Luis: I think she was from the Midwest. I believe she was... she practiced—I don't know the name of her religion. She was from the Midwest. So, when I heard about her, and what I heard on my high school that she was dead because of all that horrible stuff they told her, it's just like, that could've happened to me. If I didn't know my kind of friends, if I didn't have the kind of friend circle that I have, that could've happened to me. I would be feeling like crap every single day.

      Reflections, the United States, worst parts; Time in the US, school, fitting in/belonging, discrimination/stigmatization, bullying; immigration status, living undocumented, learning status

    3. Mostly from, I don't know, people coming from Kazakhstan, or people coming like a refugee from one of those—like Syria for example. People coming like a refugee from Syria and going to another country that they don't know, but they can't stay in their own country. So I don't know. It's just that—Anita: You identified with them?Luis: Mostly. But I don't know, I think I was just lucky. I was definitely lucky because I didn't have to feel the hatred. I didn't have to feel the horror.

      identity, migrant

    4. Anita: Did you feel American?Luis: Yeah. Most of the time. Most of the time I would just feel like a white kid. But I knew, of course, that my pa was Mexican. I knew that my grandma was Mexican. I knew where they came from and I knew they're… I like to be in touch with my traditions, some traditions. We used to celebrate Día de la Independencia, the sixteenth of September. We always tune in the internet, whatever the hell they were doing in el Zócalo or stuff like that. So yeah, it was pretty good. I was in touch with some traditions. Mostly I didn't do any kind of American traditions like Thanksgiving or Christmas.Anita: You didn't?Luis: No, I didn't. No, I still don't know what the hell is wrong with Thanksgiving and stuff like that. Never liked turkey anyway. So yeah, it was good and I never suffered any kind of stuff.Anita: So, you didn't have friends who invited you over For Thanksgiving.Luis: There was one time. ____ he invited me over for Thanksgiving, but my pa was like, "I don't want you getting used to that kind of stuff because we're not going to celebrate it." I was like, "Okay." So yeah, I just went over and said hi and ate a little bit of coleslaw and that’s it. I just went out. Never liked coleslaw anyway. So, it was good. It was cool. So that was my best experience, and the bad experiences were just mostly, just hearing what was wrong with my role in the world, or where was I standing as far as a citizenship would go. I don't know how to explain that. I would say that the worst part of living in the United States was knowing that I would never be a full American. Knowing that I was not a part of America. Well, America as a continent, it's a different thing. Knowing that I was never going to be a USA citizen. Knowing that most people hate foreigners. Most people just hate people from another country.

      reflections, identity, American; time in the US, homelife, Mexican traditions, holidays; homelife, US traditions, holidays, food

    1. Miguel: The US? I mean people in the US, even in my parents, I see that they see Mexico as very dangerous, very dark place to live. So they shaped me to believe into something that is not true. Completely not true. Actually the opposite. Coming to Mexico made me see that it was amazing to be here. It's actually a little bit more safer than over there. Over there, everywhere around the world, you get jumped, whatever. But over here, I mean I have been jumped before, but I still rather get jumped here than over there. It's a weird thing to say, but it's true because over there they won't think twice of killing you to say the least. I mean they bring guns to school. They're a little bit more violent in the US than here and they think here is violent. No, it's just we're more open showing you dead bodies on newspapers than I've noticed in over there. Over there, they were a little bit more like babying you and sugar coating it.

      return to mexico, challenges, crime and violence

    2. Miguel: It was like my world just turned upside down for the better. It was something different. It was like seeing the light at the end of the tunnel to be honest. Seeing something... People, so warming, so welcoming, people that will actually want... Feeling wanted in a place. It was different for me than living in the US. I didn't feel, basically, wanted there. I would have to look for it in people themselves. But feeling wanted in a place that is all around you, it's something amazing.

      reflections, mexico, best parts about being back

    3. Miguel: Yeah, the holding cell is totally different. They wake you up like at three o'clock in the morning, I was like half asleep and then they were like, "Okay, well sign this." They make you sign.Miguel: What I remember was they can only hold you for 24 hours after the time that you're supposed to leave. ICE usually has a hold on you so that you can't get out and that time expired and they made me sign something. At that point I was half asleep so I didn't know what was going on. So, me signing it told them that, “Yes, it's okay to take me to the immigration place.” So from there it was really cold. They took me, and in the holding cell was terrible. They would treat you like you're a criminal, you didn't belong there. They held you in this little cell, like bathrooms and everything. It was really small. I was like, if you go to the zoo and you see like an animal just sitting there, it's basically that size. Finally, when I got my clothes, I changed, went to the detention center, which is a different facility, different building.

      leaving the us, ice, mistreatment by

    1. Luis: Well I don't know. I just think that the U.S.— they don't say it and it’s never going to be said—but immigration, illegal immigration in the United States is a business. They require that cheap labor. And right now the only thing that they are trying to do is just to balance things out the way they want it. Because illegal immigration is still going to be a thing, I think, forever because they need people to exploit. Because at the end of the day, we live in a capitalist society. And I understand that for me to have these Calvin Klein shoes that I bought at Payless, somebody else had suffer. For me to have a good life, somebody else needs to have a bad life and that's just how the world works. But I think that just understanding that fact and understanding that immigrant people in the U.S are more than just assets. They are people, they have dreams. They could be like a positive force for the communities. And just, I don't know. It's just as difficult, because money rules the world I guess. And at the end of the day, a lot of companies just don't care and they want cheap labor. And a lot of people just want to pay less. Just understanding that things are this way, that your wonderful life is wonderful because other people suffer. I think that's just a huge, big step towards a better, more equal society. Yeah, that's pretty much it.

      Reflections, the United States, US government and immigration

    2. Luis: I mean I work at a call center, but you cannot really work and study at the same time in Mexico. Because here the idea of a part time job is six to eight hours. So that's a part time job, anyway. And the regular job is like ten hours. It's crazy. Anyway, so, I talked to my parents and they're like, “You know what, we are going to support you, while you do your university.” And at this time, I also meet a girl, she becomes my partner. She's still my partner right now. And she just encourages me to apply to a public school and we applied together and we ended up going to this university together. And five years later, we finish top of the class and yeah, it was great. There the sad part is that, the actual degree, I don't have it because they're giving me some bureaucratic problems because of my high school. So yeah, this is a ridiculous—one thing after another!

      return to mexico, jobs, call centers; return to mexico, education, college; relationships, falling in love; return to mexico, challenges, continuing education, records/transcripts/diploma

    3. Luis: So I'm there and a lot of people that keep telling me, “You better be careful you're going to get kidnapped.” They just keep scaring me to the point that I like set up a decoy on my actual bed and sleep in the closet. And that is ridiculous, because nothing happened. And it was always here. And I started going to universities. I had a cousin, so he was like, “Yeah I'll drive you, or we'll go together, or whatever.” And it was really scary because like traffic here is nuts. It's like I thought I was going to have a heart attack every single time I would get on a bus or something, but I had no option

      Return to Mexico, challenges, crime and violence, cultural differences

    4. Luis: But it was just misconceptions. This high school is better because it doesn't have a lot of Mexicans… just unfunded things. So yeah, I then transferred to the other one. And the ironic thing, at least for my mom, is that I didn't really have any close Mexican friends. They were immigrants, but they were not Mexicans. And it's not because I didn't wanted to. It's because, I didn't feel that I fit in with that Mexican culture. I still don't feel like I fit in with Mexican values and culture, or with American beliefs. I don't really like either. So, I ended up being really good friends with a lot of Asian people actually. Korean people have really similar experiences—Korean people, Vietnamese people, Filipinos- with Mexicans. So it was like really interesting to know all of that people. It's actually beautiful, like a beautiful cultural exchange. I think you grow as a person. And I also had like American friends. Like one of my best friends is American.

      Reflections, identity; time in the US, school, making friends

    5. But yeah, it was kind of tough. And also, the whole culture kids are not used to, or maybe just humans, they're not used to like alien things. Because I remember I didn't know to say “salad.” And when I was at lunch, I will always try to eat a salad, try to be healthy, but I didn't know it was called a salad. So, I will just call it green thingy—I think it was my go-to word for whatever I didn't know. I will just tell them, "Okay, can I have that green thingy?” And they will give it to me but they would look at me strange. And then one kid got really offended for some reason, like "It's called a salad dude do you even speak English?” And that was it, then I got really offended as well. And I was like well, "Of course not. If I would, I would call it a salad.” It was dumb. But anyway, so yeah, that was strange. Also like the promiscuity of kids in that high school was really amusing to me. It's like holy cow, twelve, thirteen year olds already doing those things?! because my family's like really, is liberal in the sense that everything's okay, but at the same time they don't talk about it. So I mean, for me it was like a real shock. And also malls—malls were super scary. My first time going into a mall was when I came back. When I was in high school. They're like these massive buildings and a lot of people there just buying stuff and the flashing colors, it was crazy. Anyway, it was an experience. And then we moved to an apartment.

      Cultural differences, school, high school, learning english/ESL, fitting in/belonging; feelings, unbelonging

    6. Also, one of the things that I remember strongly about high school—my first experience in high school—is that in Mexico, usually rules are kind of rigid in the sense that if you're late, you need to knock on the door and ask for permission to enter the room. So, I did exactly that when I was over there in my first day of high school. I wasn't confident in my English so it was like really difficult for me and I did it. And everybody's like, what the hell is this guy doing? I was like, sorry for being, courteous, I was just trying to not be a douche. Okay. But then I understood that and then rallies, rallies were like really interesting because it's like what are we doing in the gym, school spirit or what do you mean? It was really weird and kids were, kids are bullies. Most of them even if they're bullied, they want to bully somebody else for some reason.Anne: Do they bully you?Luis: No, well sometimes but not really because I was big, I remember that on my first rally I was just sitting on top of the bleachers and this small kid just started grabbing my thigh, right? Doing weird stuff to it. And I told him, "You need to stop please. You need to stop.” He wouldn't stop. So I just hit him like this [makes a gesture with his arms] and with the elbow and I just ran away to the bathroom because I thought I was going to get expelled. So that was, that was interesting I guess.

      Time in the US, school, high school, bullying; cultural differences

    7. So, we were living over there and the conditions were really poorish. There was some kind of domestic violence ingoing on with my parents. They were having a lot of issues. So, one of my uncles invited us… “You can always come and live with me.” And my mom just got fed up of this whole situation with my dad and so just one night took us all and [Snaps finger] we disappeared.Anne: Without your dad?Luis: Yeah. It was interesting. We went to Tijuana, we stayed with some dude, I'm guessing he was a coyote or something like that. And then, he gave us like the shittiest IDs to cross and we did. My mom was super nervous at the time, but since I was 12, 13, I don't remember. I didn't know the scope of the seriousness of what we were doing. So, me and my little brother, we were like, “Ah, it's like whatever.” So yeah, I think that sold it pretty well to the guy that was checking the IDs. So yeah, we crossed. And the funny thing is that we were on a shuttle to ____, that's the name of the town. And we were driving in this freeway and everybody’s just sitting there really serious, really quiet. And then we passed a couple immigration officers, and they actually stopped another shuttle. So, we passed them by, and I could just hear like [Sigh of relief] and everybody was cheering and stuff and like “Wow.” So it was a funny moment. It was surreal, like “What is going on?”, “Is everybody an inmigrant like me?” It was crazy [Laughing].

      Migration from Mexico, reasons, violence, domestic violence; border crossing, migrants; family relationships, those who were in the US

    8. Yeah, so I was there and then it got a little bit rougher as time passed. And violence was… just a poor quality of life overall. Violence, poor services. Because since it's outside of Mexico City in another state—it's close but it's still another state. It's called an unprivileged neighborhood or something like that—they have a formal name for it. So, we were living over there and the conditions were really poorish. There was some kind of domestic violence ingoing on with my parents. They were having a lot of issues. So, one of my uncles invited us… “You can always come and live with me.” And my mom just got fed up of this whole situation with my dad and so just one night took us all and [Snaps finger] we disappeared.

      Return to Mexico, challenges, crime and violence; family, parents, domestic violence

    9. Well, a funny thing is that I never spoke until I was six, so they thought I was autistic or something. I never ever spoke. I would just watch TV. I mean, I would understand everything, but I didn't speak at all. So I don't know if it's like a repercussion of the whole experience, but I mean that's interesting I guess.Anne: Very interesting.Luis: Yeah. I would just watch TV and play piano because they had a little piano in the house.

      Time in the US, Arriving in the US, learning English; homelife; pastimes, music, playing; pastimes, watching TV

    1. Laura: I want to go live because I want my kids to have a better life. You know, Mexico City, I mean it's not the worst, but I don't want my kids to get involved in drug things, and stuff. And sometimes I just talk to my son and I talk about the life that I got there and the things that I was doing with my parents. He's like, “I want to go out there, mama.” I want to take him there. I want to show him, I want him to learn English, and he can study there. I want to go back. I think you can do that.

      return to mexico, challenges, crime and violence

    2. Laura: I know and it's pretty hard for me to remember that my dad was, he didn't want to go to work. He was just in his room crying for my mom watching TV. He didn't want us to see him like that. But I was the oldest sister and I do remember when my dad just hugged me and cry about my mom and say, “Why she left us? Why?” because we were girls. So, my dad didn't know what to do with us because we were girls. It was pretty difficult for me to see that as a daughter and see my dad crying. I mean, he didn't want to go to work and we didn't have nothing to eat. We have family there, but, you know, sometimes the family doesn't help us too much. You have more from other people than the family.

      time in the us, family, parents/step-parents

    1. Rodolfo: I think a lot of the deportees, when they come back, yes. But I think more about their family—the inability to help your family member, the person who you love is one of the most horrible... it's a horrible feeling, not being able to help, let alone help one of your family members.Rodolfo: I remember my mom crying over the phone and telling me, “Man, I just want to help you. I wish I could just go and get you.“ Or, “Man, I'm going to ask around and see if I can find a lawyer and everything.” Oh my god, don't let me get started on the lawyers over there. They're not quite good people, right? Because they take advantage of that as well. But that's another conversation.Sergio: So, on that piece about helping families. What do you think the US government can do to help Mexican deportees and the families that they leave behind? You left your family.Rodolfo: If it'd be up to me, everybody would be together and there would be no borders and no laws. But what the US government can do to help families in that position is if one of your family members is in a detention center, you automatically— there should be a law, there should be a rule, whatever man—can go and visit. You can go visit and get visited by anybody who they want and they can't touch them. It doesn't matter if it's a federal, state law or whatever.Rodolfo: You can't deprive somebody of their family like that, man. I understand you're not from here, and okay, they're in deportation proceedings and everything, but that's why there's so many fights in there, you know? That's where there's so much aggression, so much tension, because you don't know what's going to happen.

      Return to Mexico, challenges, family separation;

    2. Rodolfo: I feel like, obviously because of the corruption or anything they don't want to help us because they much rather keep that money for themselves then to give it out. So, I feel like more awareness as well. If there is that help, then let us know. Let us know we have that help. Let us know you are there and we can help. Not just that we've come here from a different country and now go ahead, do whatever you can. No, I mean, just help us out too.Sergio: I'm just wrapping up. Why do you think so many people from Mexico have a negative perception of returning migrants?Rodolfo: Because of what their family members tell them. And the reason why returning deportees have a bad perception or a bad idea or a bad image of why they shouldn't come back is because well, in the first place, their family... Every individual has their own story, right? Obviously, that individual's family has told them the story of why they moved to America. And if they themselves, if their own family didn't want to live here, that in its own instills fear in them.Rodolfo: I mean, we're humans, right? We fear the unknown. We fear what we don't know, especially we fear change. We're creatures of habit. If you take me out of my element, if you took me out of Chicago, I'm like, “Shit, I don't know what's going on man.” I didn't know I couldn't walk after I paid my tacos. I didn't know I had to give back [inaudible 00:25:14], the glass bottle. I didn't know that. I didn't know I had to pay five pesos if I want to use the bathroom around here.Rodolfo: My family painted me a picture of here that it was going to be horrible. Because that's what they lived, that's what they know. That's the reason why they moved. Like, “Hey man, living over there is going to be horrible. Don't go over there, fight the case, stay here. You're not going to be able to do anything over there, it's so hard. Minimum wage—the pay is horrible, the jobs are horrible.” And they're feeding you what they know and what they lived because they don't know any better, they don't know anything else.Rodolfo: And for a person who doesn't know a country, then they're going to take heed to that. If I watch a movie and I tell my friend, “Hey man, don't watch that movie, that movie is horrible.” Yeah, I watched it, you didn't and now you're going to take my opinion and apply it to your own beliefs. Okay, well, I mean, he's my friend he wouldn't lie to me, why would he lie to me? You're my mom, you're my brother, my sister, whatever. If you say it's bad, it's bad.

      Return to Mexico, challenges, cultural differences, discrimination, economic-well-being, employment, language; Mexico, policy for reintegration, language, jobs; Feelings, anxiety, despair;

    3. Rodolfo: The Mexican government, they provided some help. They provided 50 pesos when I first got here. And they just give me a whole bunch of pamphlets of school and housing, right? But I feel as though independent organizations were the ones who ultimately would have helped me a lot more. When I first got off the plane, they told me about all the resources, all the help, all the things that their company or their organization did for other people, deportees. So, I feel like independent organizations would have helped me more than the Mexican government.Rodolfo: What can the Mexican government do to help deportees?Rodolfo: Well, I mean, look, when I first got here, apart from them giving me 50 pesos... In my opinion, the Mexican government can be more supportive in having—I don't know,—what I was thinking is probably a fund, you know? Or maybe a fund or some type of little packet. Not saying that we all are entitled to it, but it'd be good to get here and have a little bit of money or a place for yourself, or right away giving out jobs or something like that. I'm not saying that the Mexico City doesn't have jobs for a bilingual speaker or bilingual people but it's through third party organizations, outsourcing and stuff like that.Rodolfo: But if the Mexican government really do want to help then that would be my suggestion. More jobs, more jobs for people like us. And not just for people us more so, but that would help out everybody else. Or simply, when I got here maybe there'd be a little fund that everybody gets, a certain amount of money to start their own business. Because I did hear about something like that. That there are help for people that want to start their business, especially if you're deportees.

      Mexico, policy for reintegration, language, jobs, social acceptance; Mexico, corruption, reform;

    4. Rodolfo: I don't want to say I feel like American. Spiritually, me myself, as an individual, I feel like now that I've been in Mexico and been living the real life of a real life Mexican—because man, it's hard out here, you know?—I feel like if I say I'm American, I feel like I'm betraying who I am. Because I have American… Yes, I'm from... Because even then I can't even say I'm American cause I'm not from there, that's why I'm here, right? But the way I feel, yeah, I guess I am what they call me here, el gabacho, the American, the white boy. Do I feel it? I feel it only because I miss my home and that's what I want to be in order to be okay over there. I mean, if that's what I have to be in order to be okay over there and then, okay, yeah, I'm American.Rodolfo: But when I'm amongst individuals, Mexicans here and everything, my own people, I'm a Mexican. It still takes me a little while for me to be able to really integrate myself because to this point, to this day, I still have trouble expressing myself 100% in Spanish. I always try to better my Spanish, but it gets to the point where sometimes I can't fully express the way I feel at times.Rodolfo: So, I speak in English but then you can't understand me in English because you speak all Spanish. So, those are the times when I really truly do feel American more than I feel Mexican. Because if I can't voice and express my true feelings in my native tongue then that's—my native tongue is English.Rodolfo: So, you know what? Now that you do mention it, yeah, I feel more American now than I do Mexican and it's kind of mixed feelings. Because I'm trying to forget everything that I was over, that was going on over there, that I lived over there. But it's hard because I want to go back, I want to be able to punch in at Cheesecake Factory, and I want to be able to come home and just be with my family. But yeah, I do feel more American than I do Mexican and I'm not ashamed to say that's who I am. Short of being born over there, I'm from over there.

      Identity, American, Mexican, bi-cultural;

    5. I remember when I first got picked up, they took me to Wisconsin—I'm sorry, they took me to Rock Island, Illinois—for processing. That was the processing center.Rodolfo: They took my fingerprint and my name, first and last name and everything. Right? So I wasn't… I'm sorry, I lost my train of thought. They took my name and everything, right? But then they had a form in front of me and they told me here, sign here and you know you'll be all set. And I asked them, “Well here, give me a second, let me read it.” And there was another person, right? Because it was a desk like this one. It was four seats this way with the divider being the computer, the fingerprint scanner and a camera, like a little Nikon camera, simple camera. And I told everybody— I was the only one who spoke English or perfect English at that—"Hey man, don't sign anything at all until you know what you're signing because you don't know what you're signing. For all you know you're signing your liver away. So, just don't sign anything.” And the guy told me, “Hey man, shut your mouth. We're talking to you; we're not talking to them. I'm talking to you. Don't be a hero or don't be a jailhouse lawyer.” I'm like, “A jailhouse lawyer? I'm not in jail.”Rodolfo: And they told me, “Just sign here.” I'm like, “No, I'm not going to sign it.” And I started reading through it, and it basically everything that it said was, “I waive my right to an appeal. I waive my right to any formal hearing. Basically, deport me as soon as possible.” And I'm like, “So you're telling me that without explaining to me what's going on or what this form entails, you're just going to have me sign it?”Rodolfo: Because they told me, “We're not going to let you speak to your family and you're not going to see your family for a long time if you don't sign this because you're breaking some law or whatever.” Because they even showed me little papers saying, if you state that you're a US citizen it's a federal crime punishable by between—I think it was like—three to seven years in federal prison.Rodolfo: Now, I'm not sure if that was another one of their little tactics or whatever, but nonetheless didn't let it scare me, I didn't let it affect me. I'm like, “Okay cool, that's great man, I'm not going to sign this. I need to go in front of a proper hearing and a judge. I want to bond set. Because I know, well, I may not know my rights a hundred percent, but I know that I'm, I'm entitled to a bond or at least a hearing for a bond.”Rodolfo: And they told me, “Wait right here.” And then they went to go get a supervisor, and the supervisor spoke to me in private and he gave me another form and he was like, “Okay, you want a proper hearing? Sign here.” And I read it and, okay here, then like, man, this is what it is? It took me getting loud with you. I was a bit belligerent, I'm not going to lie to you tell you I was the best, as they called me, “detainee.” But I'm going to fight for my home. I understand I was born in Mexico, but Chicago's my home, it's my land, that's where I'm from. And whatever I can do to stay there, I'd be okay.Rodolfo: And so, yeah, that's what it was. But it took me probably a good, five months before I could see a judge.Sergio: You were in detention that whole time?Rodolfo: I was in detention. I was in a detention center for five months.Sergio: Before seeing the judge?Rodolfo: Before seeing the judge. And it wasn't even a formal hearing I did. It was over the internet and the monitors, surprisingly that day, did not work. So, all I heard was voices and I told them “No, I want a proper hearing. I can't see the judge. For all I know there's a guy in the next room talking to me and there's no judge.” “Okay, well you're going to have to wait on a whole another six months.” And I'm not going to lie to you, those detention centers aren't all that pretty, you know what I mean?Rodolfo: I just didn't want to be locked up anymore. That, honestly, that scared me. I didn't want to do another whole six months. By that point, I would've done a year just to go see one judge for a bond. Finally, I said, “Yeah, you know what? Yeah, I want one. I'll take the six months, give me the six months. Just so I can see a judge.” Surprisingly, there was another court hearing, I think, a month from then. So, I finally got to see the judge, but they set the bond at $50,000. And I don't have a $50,000, my family doesn't have $50,000. So, I sat there. I sat the two and a half years because I wanted to fight it. Every possible angle that I could probably touch, I tried it.

      Reason for return, deportation; Detention; Court proceedings, judge, lawyer, case, trial; Imprisonment; Racial profiling, prison, guards;

    6. Rodolfo: That's what happened, that's really why they got me. I remember when I was in Court they said, "He has accumulated since he was 15. Since he was 15 he accumulated a lot of driving tickets. He is dangerous to the road." I'm like, "What? [Incredulous]. All my tickets are because you guys pull me over. It was late at night, I was the only car on the road. I mean, obviously, if a police officer tails you for more than two miles, you're gonna do something wrong in their eyes, right?” That's just what happened. I kept on driving, why? Because I went to school and I went to work, and it's just easier, it's just more convenient to drive your car that you paid for, than to go through the hassle of the CTA—the CTA is the Chicago Transit Authority.Rodolfo: Yeah, that's the way it was, but I always saw it as, “Man, don't let that affect you.” But, hey man, it affected me all right? If I didn't drive, I would probably still be over there.Anita: What did they give you tickets for?Rodolfo: Driving with no valid drivers license. Then after two or three time it turns into an aggravated... No, sorry, it turns into a felony. It's just the same kind, but now it's a felony instead of a misdemeanor.Anita: They just pulled you over because they saw that... Why did they pull you over?Rodolfo: One of the first times was because I had a busted taillight. I didn't realize that the lightbulb had gone out. Then after that...Once again, I didn't live in the best place around town, so police would always be around. I guess they just saw me and they would always just get behind me. It wasn't just me, it was other friends. Even when I would be with other coworkers, it would happen the same way. In Rogers Park, by Evanston, and even in Wrigleyville, a whole bunch of places, if it's late at night and they just see one or two individuals, especially Hispanic or African-American, they're gonna see what's going on.Rodolfo: They're gonna want to see what's going on. That's what happened, because I literally would ask them, "Why did you pull me over?" "Improper lane usage." All my tickets improper lane usage, failed to use turn signal. It was really aggravating because it was like, “Man bro, you see me with my work uniform on, you see the food right next to me. Literally, here is my work ID, this is where I work, and I'm coming from work. Please just let me go home." "Please step out of the car." Impound the car, or, I'm not gonna lie, some of the times that I did get pulled over sometimes they just let me leave the car, or they had me call somebody with a license, but that was very, very rare that would happen.

      Arrests, felonies, traffic offense, police: US, racial profiling; Reason for departure, deportation;

    7. Rodolfo: Yeah, I guess it's one of those things where you think it's never really gonna affect you, until you're in the back of the DHS, the Department of Homeland Security, van. You're next to a whole bunch of people you never met, and they're also in the same position. Some don't even speak English. You don't really understand how immediately it can affect you until it affects you. I never thought it would affect me. Okay, well I mean, I'm working, I'm going to school—I'm in high school—I'm doing this, this and that. Some of my friends who are students already dropped out. Did everything, they’ve already gone to prison and back and everything, and they haven't even hit their 21st birthday.Rodolfo: And I'm still good, I'm still good. I may not be a straight A student or anything, but hey man, I'm still here! Why can't I have the same privilege as you all do? Why can't I get my license? You know how happy I was when I got my license here, damn. I love to drive, that's one of my passions. Always, always, always I love to drive. I couldn't get my license over there. I remember even in high school in drivers ed, I knew what the answer was, but I asked my mom, “Hey mom, can I apply for drivers ed, so I can get my license? “She was like, "You know you can't get your license." Again, one of the primary things, I’m like damn, I'm just not gonna be able to drive all my life? Or if I do drive and I get pulled over—as a matter of fact, that's the reason why I got deported, driving without a valid drivers license.

      Immigration status, broken system, lost opportunities; Feelings, sadness, frustration, anger, isolation; Living undocumented; Driving, driver's license;

    8. Rodolfo: Yeah, I worked all the time, I never stopped. One of the first jobs I had…My uncle worked at a restaurant called, Baker's Square in Chicago. It was on the corner of Tui and Pratt. I really, really, really wanted—I think I was in fifth or sixth grade—a phone. I wanted a phone, it’s called the Psychic Slide. Phones used to flip, but this one slides. I wasn't gonna ask my mom for it, so I asked my uncle. "Hey man, I know you work at Baker's Square and I know around the holiday season it gets really busy. Can I help you? Can I go?" He's like, "Well, yeah, if you want." I used to wake up like 3:00 in the morning, and I used to go and help him out. After that, I really liked making money and I really liked dressing nice, I liked having my nice haircut or whatever. My very, very first job was in Wilmette, Illinois. I was a caddie. Yeah, and then—Sergio: On the golf course?Rodolfo: On the golf course, yeah. Wilmette Golf Course actually. I remember I was always the first one there. They used to choose us, when everybody got there, "Okay, you come with me, you come with me." I used to always go there and there was a gentleman by the name of... Man, I forgot his name. Like the President, Gerald Ford, that was his name Gerald Ford! The only reason I remembered was because of the President. He used to always get there around the same time I got there. He finally asked me, "Do you want to be my personal caddie? I don't want you working anymore with all these other kids, because nobody wants to work. Do you want to be my personal caddie?" I'm like, "Yeah, absolutely." It was going really, really well and everything.Rodolfo: I got to high school, I had a number of jobs. I worked at Subway, I worked at Chili's, I worked at... What was it? Outback Steak House, but then I finally just got to the Cheesecake Factory, and that's where I stayed the remainder of my time. The remainder of my time I stayed there, and I started from the busboy and I finally ended up being a bartender. One of the head bartenders, one of the head servers, they used to pay-out people and everything. Obviously, I didn't have my social or anything, but I was a little bit older than what I really was. When I first got there, when I first, first started working I think I was like 14. Obviously you can't work that young, I think actually, I was 18, at 14.Rodolfo: I didn't see it as anything bad. I knew that if I got caught with my fake ID and my fake social security card I'd get in trouble, but that's why we're there, that's why we worked. I didn't get a fake ID to go party or go get into clubs or bars or anything. The main purpose of it was for me to be able to get a job, and so my mom wouldn't have to work all those hours that she used to work. She used to work at a Burger King, overnight. I used to barely see her, and I didn't want that anymore. I told her, "You don't have to work that much if I start working. We can help each other out, we can, we're a team.”

      Careers, working, jobs, golf course, restaurant, family, providing for, documents, ID, earnings, occupations;

    9. Rodolfo: One of the very first memories I have of the US, was, I was in a truck with my mom—I'm not sure if this was before or after the fact, that we had already arrived because we arrived in Phoenix, Arizona—was somebody asking my mom, "Have you and your son ate?" I remember my mom telling him, "No, but I have a sandwich here and some snacks for him." He went, "No, here, you're in America now, you're in Phoenix now, let's go get a burger." I remember that somebody bought me—I don't know if it was her or him, the driver—a kid's meal from MacDonald's. This is when they had... I'm not sure…it was like the little hand-held games. I'm not sure, I think it was the Rug Rats or something like that. I remember getting that little toy and thinking, wow, it's a kid's... It had little fries and a burger, and you get a toy.Rodolfo: It was the first time I had ever saw that, and I got really happy, because I was playing the little game and all that. I thought that was the coolest thing in the world. After then, we went into a room... it couldn't have been more... It was just a standard living room, but there was probably like 50 or 60 people in there. Some of them were sitting and it smelled horrible. It obviously wasn't the best place. I guess it was just for people waiting for their relatives to go pick them up or something, I'm not sure. It was just my mother and I and I remember there was a lady with a big pot, and she was just cooking. I'm not sure what she was cooking but we went into another room and all I remember hearing was a big slam.Rodolfo: I looked back and it was a cage. It was literally like they fashioned a metal door with metal bars between the thresholds of the living room from end to end so nobody could get out. Then the windows were the same, they had burglar bars so nobody would get out. I was wondering, why is this happening? At that time, obviously, you were a kid, you don't understand what's going on. First I got fed, I have a little game, and now I'm in this steel cage that smells horrible. I remember somebody arguing with the other person that, "The bucket was full. The bucket was full." I was hearing that, "You need to empty out this bucket." I realized that was the bathroom, that's why it smelled so horrible.Rodolfo: I remember the guy just closing a curtain, and just telling me to, "Shut up." That's when I felt fear for the first time. Even though I was in the desert and everything, that's the very, very first time I felt genuine fear. I didn't know what was going on. I felt it because my mom felt it. She was just hugging me, and that was like the last thing I remember. After that I remember just waking up in the apartment complex. In a room, but it was completely different, it was somebody else. I guess these people knew my mother, because they spoke to her by name and everything. That was one of the very first memories.

      Migration from Mexico, border crossing, coyotes, illness, migrants;

    1. So while some people's lives converge fast, there will be others whose lives never converge. And for these people, figuring out what to work on is not so much a prelude to working hard as an ongoing part of it, like one of a set of simultaneous equations. For these people, the process I described earlier has a third component: along with measuring both how hard you're working and how well you're doing, you have to think about whether you should keep working in this field or switch to another. If you're working hard but not getting good enough results, you should switch. It sounds simple expressed that way, but in practice it's very difficult. You shouldn't give up on the first day just because you work hard and don't get anywhere. You need to give yourself time to get going. But how much time? And what should you do if work that was going well stops going well? How much time do you give yourself then?

      9th footnote

    1. Social and emotional learning (SEL) is sometimes perceived as being just one more thing heaped on educators’ plates, but it’s truly valuable—in small, frequent doses, it helps bring about many valued outcomes.

      Link to article that connects SEL to more traditional academic standards/outcomes. Mindshift is a podcast from KQED about topics in education

    1. Rocio: Yeah. They are destroying an American citizen because they are suffering. And it's just not fair. But I'm very glad that people like you are doing this because what I want is to be able to talk to more people, to know what this is about. And it's just not because I went to United States because I don't like Mexico or I come back and going to steal jobs because I speak English because it's not that way. And the way we can help the people that go through these situations and go to the government and ask them—I'm here for nine years and I can't get a job and I'm 55 or I need to support myself. I need to support my kids. I need to live. I'm Mexican and I am not able to do nothing if you're in my country and it's terrible. And that's what I'm going to fight for now. Because if not, I don't know if I'm going to survive or what am I going to do. My family is not going to be there forever.

      reflections, the united states, worst parts

    2. Rocio: Oh. Everything. I mean for me it was a very good time. I had very good jobs. I have time to be with my kids a lot because I worked nine to four, so I have all afternoon with my kids. I was able go to the beach. As you know, Palm Springs is very close to the beach, the snow, and mountains. So I love the USA. I just love that place. So I hope—I mean it's not going to be the same of course, but it's different. I just always love to be there.

      Time in the Us, living situation

    3. Rocio: And my friend wants to adopt my kid and I'm not ready to do that either. I'm not going to take my son away from her because she's been so nice, but I'm not going to sign that you know [laughs]? So I mean, it's just a nightmare for everybody. It's just not right. We don't go to steal nobody's jobs. We go to have a better life. That's it. And we are very hardworking people. So I don't know what's going to happen.

      time in the us, family, children

    4. Rocio: So I'm just starting to get more strength to help people because you know, hearing the stories and everything—my stories all the time here in my mind. I'm starting to like it because I love to help people you know? And I start when the situation with the DACA start in United States, I was like, “This is not fair, this can't be happening.” I have thousands of friends in United States that took their kids very young, one, two years old. And the future was going to be for them, you know? And if they took the kids, the parent stay or if they took the parent back, what would the kids going to do in the United States? My kids were so lucky to have my daughter, her father, and my son, my friend. But even though that's illegal because they just have a paper, we haven't been able to do nothing really legal because it's too expensive.

      time in the us, daca

    5. And because my age. I just been working—in nine years, I just got three jobs. And last year I broke a bone in my back. So I stay a year in bed. After that, I'd been looking for a job for a year and I'm not able to get a job because my age, so it's just a nightmare. And so I've been trying to get more involved in these situations, to see if we can get together, the people that we go through this and help each other because it's just crazy.

      Time in the Us, jobs/employment/work ; time in the us, illness

    6. Rocio: So that's when I need to make that decision to let him go, with my friend. She's everything to me. Of course, she's very, very—a great family. She just have a son. So, she signed it like a tutor [inquisitive] to keep him until I was able to come back. Because at the beginning I was fighting to go back and talking with everybody, but they told me, you have 10 years and you need to stay over there. So it was extremely hard for me to make that decision, but it's not for me. It's his life. He has everything over there. And I'm not going to take that away from him.

      Return to Mexico, family relationships, those who stayed in the us

    1. David Nutt isn’t the UK drug czar anymore. He got fired after he refused to retract a speech in which he stated that cannabis and other “recreational” drugs are less dangerous than legal drugs, particularly alcohol and tobacco. I think it was the comparison with alcohol that really did it. After all, booze is one of the most concentrated industries in the world, with just a few companies producing nearly all the beer and spirits we drink. What’s more, Nutt had made a particular enemy of the booze industry. It’s been long understood that the UK alcohol industry’s profitability was entirely dependent on unsafe binge drinking. If everyone in Britain “enjoyed responsibly” as the industry’s ads urged, they would no longer be in profit.

      Is there a way to tax alcohol that could make it less profitable?

    1. Knowledge is not (just) the stuff that ends up in our minds. It is what we do and make. Learning is a consequence of a series of knowledge actions, using multimodal media to externalize our thinking. We rely on the cognitive prostheses of writing, computers, diagrams, image and sound recordings, and the like. Learning consists of ways of acting in and with these media. By these means, our ways of think-ing develop. Learning for this reason is also very social, as we rely on the artifacts of collective memory, and work with others in the essentially col-laborative task of knowledge making.

      This last paragraph really struck me. Always, as an educator, I hear the question "Why do we have to do this? When will we ever use this?" and it always makes me think about how I should answer it. Yes, it's important to know these things, but more than that, it's important what learning does for us. Learning should be productive and creative, it should extend beyond ourselves and be social. It's about more than just knowledge, it's about knowledge making.

    1. I worry that social justice may become simply a “topic du jour” in music education, aphrase easily cited and repeated without careful examination of the assumptions and actions itimplicates.

      I completely agree with this statement, and I think that it's become a buzzword (like Alex said) in schools in general, not even just in the field of music education. Our district hired an Equity Officer about 2 years ago, and I was really hoping that they would have a strong presence in our district, at curriculum review meetings, providing PD, etc....I think I have seen them once since I was hired and it was at New Teacher Orientation. We have someone there that could be helping us to fully understand some of these terms/topics instead of assuming we know what it is, its implications, its assumptions, etc. but it feels as if they're not being fully utilized.

    1. Anita: But what did you like about it?Diana: About coming back?Anita: About the U S.Diana: Oh, about the US. I like the rules. I like the rules. Because you know how over there you, let's say when you're driving, when I started driving, you know how over there you have to respect the people that are walking and then you follow rules a lot more. Here nobody cares. If you’re walking, the cars just, they don't care about you, and here you also see that the traffic's worse always because let's say if the lights are not working, it's not like over there that you know that the person on the right goes first. You stop, and you know it's like that. Everybody knows that, so you do it. And then here is like no, everybody wants to go first. It causes chaos and then a lot of people, mostly that is very insecure. The first time we got robbed, we were taking my son to school, and they stopped us and they had guns and they took everything. They even took his backpack and it’s like, why do you need his backpack?

      Reflections, the United States, favorite parts

    2. Diana: Oh, about the US. I like the rules. I like the rules. Because you know how over there you, let's say when you're driving, when I started driving, you know how over there you have to respect the people that are walking and then you follow rules a lot more. Here nobody cares. If you’re walking, the cars just, they don't care about you, and here you also see that the traffic's worse always because let's say if the lights are not working, it's not like over there that you know that the person on the right goes first. You stop, and you know it's like that. Everybody knows that, so you do it. And then here is like no, everybody wants to go first. It causes chaos and then a lot of people, mostly that is very insecure. The first time we got robbed, we were taking my son to school, and they stopped us and they had guns and they took everything. They even took his backpack and it’s like, why do you need his backpack?

      Best parts about the US, safety, school;

    3. Diana: It's because also, I always grew up with a little bit of conflict with my mom because she had a lot of rules that even from when I was young, I didn't agree with them. [chuckles] I mean also I know now that she had those kind of thinkings and stuff because of the way she grew up and all the problems she had so ... but at that moment, you don't think about any of that, is just mainly you so [chuckles].

      Gangs, family, parents, teenage rebellion, arguments;

    1. Anita: Like I don't even know. Are you different from other Mexican men in a relationship kind of is the question.Jesus: Yeah. That's the difficult thing, is not only am I binational and Hispanic, I'm from the north of Mexico. A lot of my culture from the north over there, it's really about machismo. And I was like, "Oh man." Over there, the reality is still women being abused, and all that stuff. So, when I tend to drink, sometimes I get angry and I started getting aggressive and like I told my ex, I was like, "I can't drink, I can't drink. Not with you." We tried drinking a few times, and things just kind of got out of control. She would become controlling, and then I'd start to get angry. I start to see my dad's side inside of me. And I'm just like, "No, this just can't happen." So, that's where we were running into issues too. And coming from the States, I was raised in the Pacific Northwest and there's a big movement for Civil Rights and stuff over there too, women's rights and equality. So, I have a lot of those same mentalities still, like respect women, try and keep things fair. But then over here, I feel like women have been brought down so much, that they want to see how much more they can get.

      Return to Mexico, challenges, cultural differences; relationships

    2. Anita: Partner? That was last week.Jesus: Yeah. [Laughs]Anita: How long has it been since you broke up?Jesus: Yeah, about a week. How did you know?Anita: You said you broke up!Jesus: You're following me around. [Laughs]Anita: You said you broke up.Jesus: No, we're trying to work things out. We did hang out last night, but it's just two different cultures. It's hard to kind of wrap your mind around being in a relationship, especially when my Spanish is más o menos.

      Relationships, falling in love; Return to Mexico, challenges, Language, cultural differences

    3. Anne: Do you think you will return to the United States some day?Jesus: No, I want to see South America, Central America. I got really into the whole contras and all that stuff during the 80's with the CIA scandal. I just kind of want to see how it’s left all these countries south of Mexico. That's the whole reason I came down here.Anne: I see. You're the traveler?Jesus: Yeah.Anne: So, you want to travel south?Jesus: Yeah, everyone tells me it’s dangerous. They're like, “It gets more dangerous the further south you go.” I was like, “Well you only get one life you know.”

      Reflections, dreams

    4. Anne: Are any of your relatives U.S. citizens?Jesus: My brother.Anne: He was born there?Jesus: Well, no, he was born here. Oh, and my sister too. My brother was born in Mexico.Anne: But he became a citizen?Jesus: Yes, just recently.Anne: So, it’s your brother and your sister?Jesus: Yeah.Anne: Have they come to visit you?Jesus: No.Anne: You haven't been here too long. Maybe they'll come to see you.Jesus: No, no. I don't know, I was...like I said, was kind of a criminal for a while and burnt all those bridges.Anne: So you're estranged?Jesus: Well I told them it's probably safer for all of us if I kind of just [Whoosh noise].Anne: I’m sorry.Jesus: I was like, “I’ll just kind of build my own life and then when I'm ready I'll contact you guys.” You make some mistakes in your life and you don't realize that at some point you can't really turn back, and you know. It’s just a little bit safer to not turn back to your family.Anne: Do you feel like it would be unsafe to go back for you?Jesus: Most definitely.

      family, siblings, arguments/estrangements; leaving the US, family separation

    5. Jesus: Like I said, [Sigh], over here, and I hate to say this, it's like law is lawless. Israel has brought this up before too. 1% of crimes get solved here. The reality is, if a husband gets mad at their wife, whatever amount of violence he brings onto her, chances are it's not going to get resolved, and not quickly and it's not going to be fair way. So, I just feel like—oh wait, what was the question one more time? Sorry about that.Anita: I was wondering whether women are more jealous or possessive here than in the States?Jesus: Yeah. So, I feel like up in the States because the laws are more fair, if you hit a woman up in the States, the law's going to come down on you. Regardless of whether or not you actually did hit them, or didn't, the law's going to come down, and it's going to take it down on the man whatever way possible. And so, women over there are more willing to be like, "Hey, you know what? You're messing around with this other girl. I'll go mess around with someone else." So, it's safer for them. They can go out to the club and be like, "This guy, he doesn't mean this. So, I'm going to go out with my girls, hook up with another dude.” Over here, if they try and do that, sometimes you get the issue of where the guy gets jealous and like I said, the crimes don't get solved here very quick, so...

      Mexico, safety, cultural differences, relationships, law, corruption;

    6. I'm also curious whether living in the States and having relationships in the States makes you approach your relationship differently than a Mexican woman would. And what are those differences?Jesus: The differences that I've noticed so far, I feel like coming from the States and being binational, I'm quicker to move on in the relationship. It's like, "Oh, let's move in together." Over there, you're more independent, there's more money, so you're more willing to get your own apartment and be like, "Hey, just come stay at my place." And then they stay for a week or two. And over here it's like, "Oh hey, come and stay at my place." And they're like, "No, I can't do that, because my mom, this and that." And moving in with your partner here, is pretty much like getting married. So, it's a big cultural difference there too.

      relationships, cultural differences;

    7. So, sort of in a relationship, how does that cultural difference manifest itself?Jesus: Cultural differences? Like I said, she's from the big city too, so it's not just the cultural difference, but it's like a big city cultural difference too. I don't know. I come from a small town where you don't really hang out with your ex. You're not really connected with the people that did you wrong because everybody in the town knows each other. Why are you going to go and hang out with this person? Especially when you're dating someone else. Why would you go back with your ex? But this is such a big city, and it makes sense that you wouldn't want to... It's so easy to get lost here so why would you want to lose connection with somebody you already know? I don't know if that makes any sense. So then for me, it was like, 'Why are you still talking to your ex?" So, a little bit of jealousy on my part, but then a little jealousy on her part too. Because whenever she'd see me talking to another girl, even if it was work related, it was like, "Why are you talking to her?"

      Relationships, cultural differences;

    8. Jesus: Let's see. Three, four, five, six, nine times five. Forty-five. Forty-five hours. Forty-five or more.Anita: How much are you earning?Jesus: It's a commission-based structure, but we're making US dollars in Mexico.Anita: What's the job?Jesus: Just being a carrier, connecting semi loads to semi drivers. [Chuckles]. So just kind of being a broker.Jesus: Yeah. And then, pretty much doing that. It's a little tough, because you got to wrap your mind around the entire industry. You're not just connecting one person to another. You have to understand all the standards and what the drivers want—connect with them on a personal level, if they're going to go see their families over the weekend.

      Return to Mexico, Jobs, Occupation;

    9. Yes, like I was saying, growing up without your citizenship and just as an illegal immigrant, you kind of get the feeling you're a criminal and that's the kind of path. That's like, I don't know, you tell that to your kid, "Hey you're illegal" and that's what they kind of start to think as they get older. Like, “Don't trust authority, don't go to the police.” You just get in this mindset of wanting to be a criminal because it’s just kind of what path is chosen for you.

      Immigration status, being secretive, broken system, hiding;

    1. Lizzy: But you're separated from your family. Was that your parents, and sister?Yordani: Yeah. I mean, I guess I chose to do that to myself. I just didn't know it was going to be that hard.Lizzy: So being away from your family is harder than you thought it would be?Yordani: Yeah, at first like, "I'm free." By a year I was like, "I'm good." And then it's like two years, it's like, "Okay, well, when am I going to see them?" I'm like, "This is..." Yeah, I guess you start feeling it. It took me awhile. I was like, "Dang, am I ever going to see them?"

      Reflections, Mexico, worst parts about being back; family, family separation

    2. Lizzy: And then you mention in the survey about, when we were talking about whether you feel safe in Mexico, and you said that at least you don't have the fear of the authorities that you have in the States.Yordani: Yeah. When I came I was so relieved. I'm like, "Awesome. I'm legal. I feel legal." That was nice, and then it's like, "Now what?"Lizzy: But in that way, do you feel less afraid?Yordani: Yeah, I felt relieved, I felt free. And that was nice.Lizzy: Had you ever felt free like that before in your life?Yordani: Ever since I found out [I was undocumented], no, because I felt like I'm always doing something wrong. I could just be here and [in US] I feel like, I don't know, like I'm doing something wrong. And I didn't even want to work, with pap-Yordani: In order to work, you got to forage for papers and I didn't want to do all that at first. I didn't want to do that, but it's like I guess I have to.

      Feelings, freedom; Reflections, mexico, best parts about being back; time in the US, immigration status, living undocumented

    3. Lizzy: When did you find out that you were undocumented? Or did you always know?Yordani: Nope, in high school. Around high school, like 9th, 10th grade. I guess that's what sent me down to depression because it was like 9th grade, you transition from middle school to 9th, it's a big change and then you find out this. And obviously, yeah.Lizzy: So finding out about being undocumented kind of made everything worse?Yordani: Yeah. Yeah, I guess. It just added onto it.

      Time in the US, immigration status, living undocumented, not knowing status, learning status; feelings, anxiety

    4. Yordani: Uh-huh (affirmative). Uh-huh (affirmative). You'd get less credits, you had to earn less credits to graduate. And there I guess, it's more about crowds, so it's like I had even less reason to really graduate and I ended up just dropping out like when I was 18. And from there I guess I got addicted to video games, like really addicted to video games. I guess... I don't know, to escape, I feel like I had my reason, I guess that was my reason to get good at that game, because that was my reason for living, I guess.Yordani: And the other... We moved away from town, where I would hang out with all my friends and yeah, so I just isolated myself with some games. I spent like five, like three, seven, four, five, six, seven years just doing that. I got really bad, I guess my social skills got really bad, just lost all my friends. Got new friends online that weren't really friends. I didn't even know who they were. And yeah, I was just in a really bad state of mind, you know? I hated going outside, it was so... I guess I didn't know where to get help. I guess I had a computer, so I'd be on the computer and I'd just research a bunch of stuff.

      Feelings, isolation, anxiety

    5. Yordani: I guess just the culture, I guess. Yeah, I had Mexican parents, but it's like I interacted more with Americans, so it's like... I guess, the music. Yeah, the music, I guess. Yeah, not too sure. The lifestyle, I'm used to having more money, and the style too like... here I guess. Well, here in Mexico, it's more varied, but where I'm from, el rancho , they dress a certain way. They have their own style. I don't really follow that. You know, like they dress in their hats and stuff like that and like I don't really do that. Like the music too, I don't really feel like I really like Mexican music. It's like I'm forcing myself to do it because I want to fit in, but in the end I don't.

      reflections, identity, Mexican

    6. Yordani: I guess just knowing what to do. I guess just first accepting the fact that I was just going to work in the field and I had nowhere else to go. Just like life was harder there... Just learning how to interact with people here, because they have a different way of communicating. It's like, you've got to communicate the way they do, otherwise you're like, I don't know, like, outcast.

      Return to Mexico, challenges, economic well-being, mental health

    7. Yordani: Anytime I had an encounter with the police, it just like... Oh, I have to say like red and white or something. I'd just really just feel very panicked inside. And it didn't help that sometimes I guess they'd tell my mom you know like, "Hey, immigration's around, don't open the door, if somebody knocks check who it is." It's like dang, you know?

      Time in the US, immigration status, hiding / lying

    8. Yordani: And so, when that happened, the police, they talked with me and my mom, they were like, "Hey, we know you're illegal. You know? We're not going to report you to immigration. We just want a clean community, we just don't want any problems." But still, it's like now they know. It's like, they know. Next time I do something, it's going to be, I guess, I'm just going to get kicked out or something. So it just created a fear.

      Time in the Us, immigration status, living undocumented, learning status

    9. Yordani: No, I’ve only one friend. I guess the feedback that he gave me, it's like I guess I didn't want to tell anybody. I felt really like... Yeah, I guess just ashamed for it. And then just scared, the police, they're going to ask me if I'm legal or not. And it became even more scary when I was in high school, middle school, and I was with the bad crowd and we bought some cans and spray painted this church. And the church was really nice. They didn't put charges and when we were cleaning they took us to eat. They were just really nice, you know?

      Time in the US, immigration status, hiding / lying

    10. Yordani: Yeah. It's like when I became aware of it, I told my friend and my friend was like, "You should get a -- your green card, you know?" And I guess ever since then I felt like... just judged, you know, like I felt afraid that somebody would find out. I was scared, you know? There was other people like me that... they wouldn't care, they'd share it, and I'd be like, "Why? You know... Why?" So it was really embarrassing for me.

      Time in the Us, immigration status, living undocumented

    11. Yordani: Uh-huh (affirmative). Uh-huh (affirmative). You'd get less credits, you had to earn less credits to graduate. And there I guess, it's more about crowds, so it's like I had even less reason to really graduate and I ended up just dropping out like when I was 18. And from there I guess I got addicted to video games, like really addicted to video games. I guess... I don't know, to escape, I feel like I had my reason, I guess that was my reason to get good at that game, because that was my reason for living, I guess.

      Time in the Us, school , struggling / suspension / dropping out

    1. I think it's because they had the picture of us all twisted, you know? We've made bad decisions, but we ain't bad people. We're not trash. We're nothing like that. I have values. I know how it is to live. I know what's the right way. How you are supposed to do it. And family is the main thing. At least to me.Anne: And that's your dream?Hugo: Yes. I still think of all that. I mean, right now, my parents probably be helped out with... My little brother's growing up, but we can help out too. Because my dad, he has diabetes. My mom does too. And my mom's one of them holy ladies that, “Jesus Christ, I have nothing, Jesus Christ will heal me.” I'm like, "Yes, Jesus Christ will heal you, but take your medicine, take care of yourself." She was just in the hospital a month ago, in and out, and I kept telling her, "Man, I believe your religion, Mother, pray to your Jesus, but take care of yourself too."

      Return to Mexico, challenges, discrimination/stigmatization; family, religion

    2. So, what do you miss about the US?Hugo: My family and the lifestyle. If I ever went back to the States, I wouldn't want to go back to Los Angeles. I wouldn't want to go there because of all the movement, people that I know. It's not like I'm going to go and make bad decisions. But, it's too hard. I want to be somewhere where's there not a lot of people. Maybe out of the city, you know? I wouldn't mind country living or anything like that because it's peaceful. Like when I go to visit my grandparents, it's a small town, you can take a deep breath of fresh air. Not like here. When we go over there to visit or like I took my baby, so she could meet her grandad and all the aunties and everything, and me and my girl didn't want to come back. We were just like, you know…But we have to come back and work. And over there, there's no call centers or anything like that.

      Reflections, the united states, favorite parts

    1. Yair: But my experience, to come back over here to Mexico is ... I don't know. I always see it as a sign of God, or I don't know. It changed my life really, really, completely. The way of seeing things too, here from over there. I don't really have that ... I can't really explain what I mean, to tell you the experience. I don't know. The experience will be, just for me, living in another country and switching back in place, and that's it. It's not that much, because most of the time that I was over there in the United States, I was referred to as a kid. I don't really remember everything, but being here, I just had to deal with it and just stay, see what comes up, yeah.

      reflections, mexico

    2. Yair: I can't really remember myself being as a kid. I can't remember how I was, but growing up over there, knowing the things, the places and people that you know, the education from school that you got, I think it's a lot different than over here. Here in Mexico here it is nice too, but they don't have really the same education that's over there. Here, people from Mexico, they do whatever they want. They don't follow the rules, or I don't know, I just think it's about the education difference. Yeah, I think, I don’t know. Yeah. I think I'm a honest people, person, I mean. I don't like to really lie and stuff, or make up things. I just tell what I feel, what I've been through.

      reflections, the united states ; return to mexico, challenges, cultural differences

    3. Yair: What I miss over there also is just most of the time the lifestyle, because I lived over there in a small country, a small town, and I could do anything. I could go fishing, I could go to a lake, play basketball, really anything, like going to the woods. I miss all that. Basically you can find the same thing here in Mexico, but it's not the same as over there.

      reflections, the united states, favorite parts

    4. Yair: She’s like, "Well, this time it's going to be you're going to cross over the kids over the border, but in the car. It's not going to be over the river or anything like that. It's in the car." Well, that's why my mom decided to say yes, because this is a better way to cross over. Then after that we got over to Reynosa again, and I think we did cross over the desert, yeah, the border. We were walking in the night, I remember. It was really dark. We couldn't see anything. We were just waiting for this guy to come over with a car to cross over.

      Mexico before the us, migration from Mexico , border crossing, general

    1. Claudia: And kind of along that same line, it's, what can the United States government do to help Mexican deportees and the family that they leave behind? What do you think?Ilse: Well, for one thing, a lot of people that are deported don't even have a criminal record. They don't have no background or anything that says, "Oh, you're a bad person, and you can't be here." Maybe just really giving them a chance to—especially when you deport the dad, or the mom, and they leave their family behind. Like, why would you separate families? I mean, that's not even humanly fair. It's so unfair. It's so, so unfair.Ilse: I understand their ground, I understand that “Why would they be invaded by Mexicans?” But they also have to understand the situations here. Maybe work along, like I said, fix a problem from the root. I don't know. Both governments have to sit down and talk about this. Like right now, the importing tariff that was imposed of five percent on all the Mexican products being exported to the U.S. unless we stop the people crossing over. But if we had more opportunities and the governments both worked together to make the economy grow here and have more chances for them not to even think about leaving, it would change a lot. So, we have to analyze why people are leaving, and try to fix that problem. And they should work together. It sounds so easy, right? But it's so complicated. [Laughs]

      Reflections, the United States, us government and immigration, policy to help migrants, policy to help those left behind; reflections, the United States, deportation, family separation; reflections Mexico, policy for reintegration

    2. Ilse: I think we have to work on that. We have to work on having work opportunities not only in call centers. There's a lot of people who are too good to be in a call center, but that's all they can find because maybe they don't have a college degree, but they have experience. And I can tell you, and it still happens to me, when people... When I'm working, I do have to speak English sometimes, but when I'm in meetings with clients and things like that, it's just Spanish. And when they hear that I speak English or they talk about the States or something and I say that was there and things like that, and they ask me why I'm here, and just telling them, "Oh, well, I came back because I wanted to." And then, them looking at me weird, like, "Why would you come back if you were over there?" Or when they ask, "Did you have to come back because you were illegal?" Dude, well, yeah, I came back because I couldn't stay over there, but you don't have to treat me differently.Ilse: And the type of people that I meet are people who have visas, who go back and forth, and they don't understand; "Well, why don't you get a visa? Why did you leave without a visa?" “No...” And I think changing that mindset, too, from the people that are here— the people that were born here and everything—there must be a way to make them understand that we're still Mexican. It wasn't our decision most of the time, why we had to leave. You know?

      Reflections, Mexico, policy for reintegration, jobs, language, social acceptance, reform; reflections, mexico, what mexico has gained

    3. Claudia: Obviously, now that you're back, you've already done so many amazing things, but what are your dreams? What else would you like to do while you're here?Ilse: Okay, well, right now, one of the things, meeting New Comienzos and everything that they do, I want to help people. I know how tough it is to come back, I know everything that you have to go through. I want to be someone who helps them out. I don't know how, but that's one of the things right now.Ilse: I'm working on establishing my own company. I'm really excited about that. I want to have something of my own, and I'm talking about short-term. I want to start it already because I know so many people, I have all this knowledge, I have everything. I just need to do it, you know? [Chuckle]. And that's one of my objectives…dreams. It's always been a dream to have my own company, but now, I have to make it a reality, and I have to work up to that.Ilse: I want to get married someday. [Laughs]. I've been single ever since I came back. On a personal note, that would be amazing. And right now, I'm just working so hard, I want to try and see if I can get my visa and be able to visit my parents.Claudia: Tell me about this company! What would your company be?Ilse: [Laughs]. It's going to be, we call it a trading company because I know a lot of brands nationally that need to be expanded. And I also do a lot of business with China, and we import 80% of the things that we have in Mexico. There's a lot of people who have the money, they have the people who they're going to sell to, but they don't know, they don't have the knowledge on how to do it, how to import, process everything. So, I want to be able to help them out. So, not even just for me, but help brands grow, help other people develop their business, as well. Yeah.

      Reflections, dreams; feelings, determination; relationships, creating families

    4. Ilse: I was angry when I had to go to the US because I had everything here, you know? And then, I was so angry because they took me over there, and I tried so hard, and I wanted to stay over there, and I had to come back. I've had to change. I'm not trying to be like, "Oh, poor me," and people feel pity for me or anything at all, but it's just like, why can't a person just live, and be where they want to be? That just gets to me. It’s not like I'm mad at the US, or I'm mad at my parents because they took me, I'm just mad that people have to go through that, you know? Just to run away from things, as kids. Because I know there's millions and thousands, thousands, of kids that have to do what their parents tell them. But I'm happy in Mexico, I can tell you that. It was probably the best decision that I could have made. I don't know what would have happened if I had stayed over there. Who knows?Ilse: But I think it was a good decision, and mainly because I was so dedicated, and I always knew what I wanted, and I worked so hard for it. I didn't give up. I think that's the difference. And bumping into so many amazing people who have been there for me, who have helped me. Like my boss right now, sometimes he's kind of like my dad, you know? He knows my story, and he helps me so much, and he tells me, "You're going to see your parents again, and I'm going to make sure, and I'm going to help you, and I don't know what we're going to have to do, but you're going to see them again."

      Reflections, the United States, what the US has lost; Reflections, Mexico, best parts about being back; reason for return, no hope for a future in the US

    5. is your family still in the States?Ilse: Yes, they are.Claudia: Have you seen them?Ilse: I have not seen them in eight years.Claudia: So, tell me about that, if you feel comfortable.Ilse: It's tough, it's so tough. I've always been so close to my mom and my brother, you have no idea. The first few years, I guess, because I was always so overprotected—my dad was overprotective of me in the States, and I wasn't able to go out or anything—honestly, the first year, two years, I was free, you know? [Laughs]. I could do whatever I wanted, I lived on my own, you know?Ilse: But then it just got to me. The third year was so bad. So bad because there was a point in time that I had economic issues, and had to reach out to my parents, and I was like, "Help me out a little bit?"Ilse: But it was more than not having enough money or whatever, it was just not having my mom by my side, telling me everything was going to be okay. And I mean, so far, I never tell them my problems because they can't do anything about it, you know? I can't call my mom and tell her that I'm sad or that I'm... I don't know, because she can't do anything. She's so far. [Emotional]. I'm so sorry.Claudia: Don't worry. Take your time.Ilse: And my brother got married a year ago. I wasn't able to be there. You know? [Crying]. I'm so sorry.Claudia: Don't worry.Ilse: He's always been my everything, and it was so hard not to be there for him. And, well, he's going to be a dad. And I'm not going to be able to see my little niece. Oh, sorry, it's just like...But I know we'll be together someday, and I'm working so hard because I know I'm not a bad person. I think that I should be able to get a visa to be able to go back. I'm not going to stay, you know? I just want to see my family. I'm so sorry. [Crying].Claudia: Don't worry. It's totally okay.Ilse: Yeah. But, yeah, it's hard.

      Return to Mexico, challenges, family separation; return to mexico, family relationships, those who stayed in the US; family, parents, siblings; reflections, Mexico, worst parts about being back; feelings, sadness, isolation, frustration

    6. I came back July second and I had a job in August. Pretty much everyone, the only opportunities that we have here as returnees and everything, is call centers. So, I started working at a call center. I had a really hard time. No, not this one, Tevista. Telvista was the first call center I went to.Ilse: It was just a relief being able to find a job so fast, but it's not something that I loved. It was really tough, but it was a relief at the same time because I was going to be able to meet people and everything.

      Return to Mexico, jobs, call centers, community, opportunity

    7. Ilse: And so, going to high school, I tried really hard, I had really good grades, I graduated third in my class. I was so into volunteering, I was in the student council, I did sports, I did everything. I wanted to be perfect so I could get scholarships. But it got to a point that I finally understood that it was never going to happen because it's so expensive. I couldn't go to a community college, I couldn't go—which was never my idea. I couldn't go to a four-year college because it was so expensive, and the scholarships are limited for people like me who were undocumented. When I finally got that, it just broke my heart because I was like, "I've tried so hard. I've given it everything, and I'm still not going to be able to stay here." So, one day, I talked to my dad and I said, "Dad, I really, really want to go to college."Ilse: And he's like, "But I can't do it. I can't pay for it. It's too expensive." And he's like, "You either stay here and work, and try to go whenever you save up, or you go back to Mexico."Ilse: And I thought about it. I was like, "Well, Mexico's my country, my dad's telling me to pretty much leave and he's not going to support me, so might as well just leave." So, right after college [means, high school] I graduated June 11th in 2011, and I was back to Mexico July second in 2011. And I just decided to leave, to start over.

      Leaving the US, reason for return, no hope for a future in the US, higher education in Mexico; Time in the US, school, working hard/getting good grades; school, extracurricular activities, volunteering, sports; higher education, dreaming about, paying for

    8. Ilse: And so, I was left behind with my mom, and the woman with her son, and we tried to cross the border through the desert. But it was awful. Even being at the border, waiting for the instructions to go ahead and start the journey, you know? And seeing so many people, and kids, and women... It was just so bad, you know? And those images are so vivid in my head still. Then after that, we were lost in the desert for three days. We ran out of water, we ran out of food, we ran out of everything; the coyote got lost. And there was a point... when it rains in the desert, it's so bad. Like, the thunderstorms are so, so bad. I'll never forget how this woman that was traveling with us, she was like hallucinating, I guess. It was so bad that it was raining and that there was a thunderstorm, and she thought that this one cactus was a person.Ilse: So, she almost fell, so she thought she was going to grab onto someone, and she grabbed onto the cactus, and all her body was left with the little pikes. It was so bad, and then being lost…Ilse: We knew that they were going to be looking for us, obviously, or someone out there, so we just decided to wait. We waited it out. But before that, when it was raining, too... This was like a breaking point. There was a little, small creek, or little river, I guess you could say. When there's a thunderstorm and it's so dark, the thunder and then you're blacked out, you're blinded because of the light. And then, we lost track of the people. So, my mom and I got lost, right?Ilse: So, we had to cross the little creek thing, and then my mom just slipped, and she was about to just keep going with the flow, and I was so... God is amazing, because I just can't believe He gave me the strength, you know, to save my mom. And this man came back for us. It's just so crazy, because who does that, you know? Who actually comes back to check on people when you have to take care of yourself? He helped us, we crossed it, but we were still lost. So, once again, we got to a point where, like, "Okay, we're going to wait it out."Ilse: But it rained so hard, and it was so hot, and we didn't have anything to eat or no water, and then I was just like blacked out. My mom says that I was gone for hours, and I was hallucinating, and literally, she thought I was going to die because it was so bad. So, the men that were with us, they went out looking for water or something, and they came across this—they said it was kind of like a pond kind of thing, but it was more like animal pee and, I don't know. So, they brought that back. My mom still had some limes, and my mom put lime in it, and she kept trying to get me water, and that's how like, I came back apparently. That's what she said. I don't remember anything about that.Ilse: So, the coyote comes back, and he's like, "Okay, I found out a way. We're good to go. We just got to keep walking." And that was the third day. And so, we kept walking, and I don't know where we hear the helicopter, and we hear the vans, and dogs, and they caught us, you know? We were so close. So close. And yet so far, literally.

      Mexico before the US, Migration from Mexico, border crossing, coyotes; border crossing, injury/illness; border crossing, border patrol

    9. Claudia: Right. And do you remember your first day in the United States?Ilse: Definitely! [Laughs]. You see, I was very angry from the time my mom told me that we had to leave Mexico. I was happy in Mexico. I have a lot of friends. I mean, I was only nine, but when you're nine, especially I think prior to this generation, you're very aware; at least, my mom always made me like that. She'd educated me to always be independent, and to always work hard at everything that I did. Obviously, at that time, I only went to school, right? But I also sold candy outside of my house so I could help my mom out a little bit, and I did so well in school, you know? I was so happy. I actually got a scholarship being in Mexico so I could keep going to school. I had straight A's. You know?Ilse: And just out of nowhere, my mom coming up to me and saying, "You're going to have to leave everything behind because we're going to go see your dad," that was just so shocking for me. And then, the whole journey to get to the US, which I'll never forget, and it's... I really pray that no nine-year-old ever has to go through that type of stuff. And then, getting to the US and not knowing anyone, and feeling totally out of place, and that first day was just so awful for me.

      Mexico before the US, Mexican childhood, memories, school, friends; Time in the US, arriving in the United States, first impressions

    1. Sergio: You play video games?Roberto: Yeah, I like video games.Sergio: It sounds like you play Halo.Roberto: Halo, yeah I used to play Halo.Sergio: So you-Roberto: I am more PlayStation.Sergio: Oh okay, I have an Xbox so I play Halo a lot, I like Halo, and Battlefield.Roberto: Oh well when they came out, yeah.Sergio: Was the new ones... I think the new one's going to be announced at E3.Roberto: Oh yeah?Sergio: Oh yes, do you know the E3 Conference?Roberto: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just-Sergio: It's happening next week or something. Sorry, what were you saying?Roberto: Oh yeah yeah. Yeah I used to play just one of the first two of Halo.Sergio: That one was my favorite.Roberto: Yeah, yeah-Sergio: That was my favorite.Roberto: ... and you can add two guns. That was pretty dope.

      Pastimes, video games;

    2. Sergio: You mentioned you didn't know you were undocumented.Roberto: Mm-hmm (affirmative).Sergio: When did you find out? Was it-Roberto: Like at what age, or?Sergio: What age.Roberto: Well like several years, like when I began living with my dad, like when I was in finishing high school, like we were just talking about that and he let me know, like that you were not legal there. We were supposed to go like to Disneyland, and well we stayed there. We didn't return to Mexico, just stayed there. We had a place to stay.Sergio: So before that, did you always think you were a US citizen? Or what did you think?Roberto: Well yeah. Well, how can I say? Because like when you're kind of you know, young, yeah you don't really think of that stuff. But well yeah, I remember that when I used to go to school, like you got to stand for the flag, and sing the... It's called-Sergio: Pledge of Allegiance.Roberto: Yeah, to the flag of the United States of America. [Laughs]Sergio: Do you remember how it goes?Roberto: No, I just remember that part, "Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America." And that's that. When I was in elementary, yeah, lo sabía todo. I used to know it all.Sergio: And did you feel like it belonged to you? I mean you never thought you were different, right?Roberto: Yeah, I guess because I'm white. Because like I mentioned, you know, I didn't know that I was illegal there. And since I have family that was born in the States, so I was like I probably born in the States too.Sergio: So then when you found out, what did that feel like? What was going through your mind?Roberto: Oh like, "Damn. For real?" I was like, I don't know, yeah, I couldn't pictured it, but it makes sense, you know? I think it has like a long process to be a citizen. And well, I wasn't born in the States, I was born in Mexico. But as well I knew that when I was more a little bit, when I came here to Mexico, yeah.

      Immigration status, living undocumented, not knowing status, learning status; Identity, American;

    1. JC: Yes something of that sort because it's obvious that the United States at this point at least is nowhere near making a positive decision for neither the families or the deportees. Right? So they're not ready for it. And even if they start talking about it today, it will still be years before anything happens, and families are still rotting away. People are still suffering. Kids are still asking for daddy. There's somebody right now at this moment right now, I guarantee you ma'am, crying because their mom or their dad or both of them aren't there anymore. Because there are cases like that. So, I guarantee you right now there's somebody shedding a tear. There's somebody, and it's not just the people left in the United States, it's the people trying to get back, they're like “What do I do? I risk it? If I try to go back, they might not even allow me to even attempt to go back legally. What do I do? What are my resources?”JC: They need information. Right? I think that would be … I think having an area like that even though it sounds ridiculously crazy, would probably be the one solution that would be possible. That way the US could still have the US, Mexico could still have Mexico, and we that are neither here nor there could have our families. Right? Everybody gets what they want.

      reflections, policy to help migrants, United States

    2. JC: Just figure out another way. You don't have to let us back, but just figure out another way to let us do things. You don't have to fix my life, but stop wrecking more lives. You don't have to fix my son's life, but don't take another person's son’s life away from them too. What's happened to me has already happened, I'm trying to deal with it. Hopefully one day I'll get to go back, but you should stop doing it to other people. It's not a good thing, and it's not going to stop. It hasn't stopped or diminished, it's actually increased in the past seventeen years that I've been here. So as far as that it's going to get better and all this stuff that's being put out by the parties or whatever, government will be, that this is actually going to fix it— I'm living proof because I've been here for seventeen years, and I've seen how this situation has only gotten worse, and the way that it's going it doesn't look like it’s going to get any better.

      Us government and immigration, reform;

    3. Claudia: All right, so now going back to coming to Mexico, you mentioned in the survey bureaucratic difficulties as one of the challenges, can you speak a little bit more on that?JC: Yes, most definitely. First of all, you know you're coming from the States, you look like you're from the States, and you're in any border town, you're going to get gaffled up by the police. Especially if you're hanging out, because obviously you've got no home, you ain't got all the money in the world to be hoteling it, so eventually you're going to be hanging out somewhere—I could talk about Monterrey and Tijuana because I've been to both of them. If you don't have an ID, they could just pick you up and take you to jail for thirty-six hours without you having anything or having done anything. I think it's some law called conflictive zone or something like that.JC: But any border town has that law. How am I going to have an ID if I don't have any paperwork, I don't even know where to get one? I don't have a residence so now I'm just going to be hiding from the police running every time they come. So that's just to begin with. Once you get started and try to do whatever you've got to do, it costs a pretty penny to try and get your stuff together. Luckily, I had my mom in the United States, she was able to send me my birth certificate. With that I got started or else I would have had to pay a couple thousand pesos just to get that. And where would I get the money from once again if I'm not working, right?JC: So, we're back again to very, very, very few options. We're kind of in the continuation of the systematic thing that's going on in the States. I’m sure somebody that's planning to deport somebody thinks about what may or may not happen during that process. So, I'm sure that a person sitting in the States figures that in order to be a justified US citizen you must have some sort of documentation verifying who you are. So it should be like that in any country. Right? But they know they're not providing us with that. So basically they're setting us up to be in the same crime. Who's going to hire me? Who's going to provide me with an opportunity to get all my stuff together? Where is the funds going to come from to be able to get established? You know what I'm saying?JC: Aside from that I've got to already run from the cops every time that I see them because I don't have an ID. You're already institutionalized, you come from a place where the mentality is already wicked, right? So, it's an ongoing thing, it's a snowball thing, it's not just a one thing, it's a continuation of the same thing. I didn't jump from one stage to another, I'm living the continuation of my deportation. This moment is a continuation of my deportation and if it would ever help me to get back [Chuckles], that would be great, but this is just something else that continues off of the same scenario, people getting deported. Living environments, predispositions. That's pretty much it.

      Return to Mexico, challenges, interactions with police, arrests, corruption, profiling, imprisonment, false arrests; Worst parts about being back, Mexico, policy for reintegration;

    4. Why doesn't the Mexican government validate the American paperwork, and why do you think that people in Mexico have such a negative perception of returning migrants?JC: First of all, most people right away think and they're not entirely wrong, “Bad people man. They're getting deported, they're coming from prison.” So I think justifiably the Mexican people have somewhat the right to be afraid of us. I'm going to explain to you why. Because just like we're fed stuff that is said about the American people, the Mexican people are also fed stuff about what the Mexican people living in the United States are like, and that's not a pretty picture. I can say that very, very strongly because I have some really, really nice friendships with people here in Mexico that have costed me a long time to be able to come about to be, because of the apprehensions that they had over the fact that I was a deportee. So it's difficult, it's a difficult question.JC: That people don't look at us the right way—with a lot of reason—but it's like we're being projected in a certain way. I think the only way that we could get rid of that is by doing programs that allow people to see us in a different way. Whatever it would be. Have people out there working to ... how can I say it, to kind of lobby us into regular jobs. So people could see like, “Hey there's this guy all tatted up working in an office building. He was pretty cool, he's an intelligent guy. He's not that bad. He's not a drug addict. I mean he looks like he's not that type of person, you know.” Where they could might give us a chance, and that I think will chain ball into people thinking it different.JC: There's always a difference as far as the tattoos are concerned, Mexican people before, if they've seen somebody with a tattoo, I mean it was practically call the cops on them, now everybody has them. It's a culture thing now. So, I think they're going to come around. But as far as with the deportees in particular, we need to be projected into regular, everyday tasks, so people can kind of look and learn type deal, you know? That's how I think it could be solved.

      Returning to Mexico, challenges, racism, stereotypes, Mexico, worst parts about being back, tattoos;

    5. JC: Yes. Yes. Well I feel like I'm from there, I'm just rejected. It's kind of like the black sheep of the family. The whole family is rejecting you. But I'm American, everything I do is American, the way I think is American, my speaking is American, my thoughts are American. I don't process words in Spanish. You speak to me in Spanish, I've got to translate from English to Spanish to speak to you. You know? So yes, I'm just kind of a non-wanted American child then. That's the way I feel pretty much.Claudia: That's a very good way to put it. I think it really comprises a lot of what we've been hearing.JC: Yes. Because it's true. You know, my whole mentality—I could tell you program shows from probably even before you were born such as the “Howdy Doody” show. And stuff like, the first words that would ever come out of my mouth in English and at that age if I'm barely learning to speak anyway, so you know, we're American. My solution is that's why I'm so successful in my job, because when American customers call in and they have issues and they need to talk to somebody who understands their way of thinking then they put me on the phone, because I understand the way they look at things. See, American people are real practical, right? It works or it don't work. If it don't work, why don't it work, I need it to work, and if I'm entitled to something, make it work. That's the way they think, and Mexican people don't think like that. A lot of people, they're bilingual, they go and take calls, but they don't understand the American thinking aspect of things. So they're unable to communicate.

      Identity, American;

    6. JC: I just remember that ... I was real young, and I never really cared about that to be honest with you. I know it's kind of dumb. But I grew up like if I was a kid from over there. I had all these struggles going on, but basically, I never thought about Mexico, ever coming back, it never even crossed my mind. That's not something that I thought of. I thought I would be living with mom and dad. Basically all I remember is that all you have to do is prove that you have been going to a public school for five years or more and if you were underage, automatically your paperwork would start. And I was provided with a social security number and everything. So I even had a social security number.Claudia: And you still got deported.JC: Yes.Claudia: Yes.JC: Yes, so I would imagine, I see a lot of people that didn't have anything at all, and they were having action for the same things I was getting deported for, and I was wondering why. But they knew what they were doing. The court system and the law system in general, it's a psychological game. And they know how to play it real well. They know where to put pressure. So, they knew what to do with me when I was at that point where like sign here, get out, or stay here. They know what they're doing. And the public pretender, because they're not defenders, that they gave us, they didn't provide much help. They basically reiterated what the previous person had said to us. They weren't no help.

      Reason for return, deportation; Immigration status, undocumented, not knowing status, learning status, social security number, court proceedings, judge, broken system;

    7. JC: I got busted for—I think it was possession of a controlled substance. It had been a series of things, it was escalating, but it wasn't like I tried to kill somebody or murdered anybody. It was just like I was just a kid who loved to get high and be in the street.Claudia: How old were you at that time?JC: I was about twenty-five. So then anyways, I went to prison and after that I went to the feds, did the fed time. And about a month before I was to get out … Oh another thing, when you're a person that's going to get deported or they've got you written down like that—somebody should at least hear this—you can't even get a job in federal prison if you're not a legal citizen. But you're forced to live there. So, if you've got a case number where you're going to be deported, you can't work and get paid like every other individual does. Or at least at the time that I was there, and I was at Jessup State Prison now.JC: So even before you even get out you've got to find what to do—you find yourself tattooing somebody, scarring them up for the rest of their life because you want to put some in your locker, you want to eat something. So, there you go. Pick up another six months, thank you very much sir. “Can I have a job?” ”No you can't.” Then you get out and, as I mentioned they don't give you any valid job in the US, and even if you get a little check, it's going to be a big old thing for you to even cash it in Mexico. You get robbed for like I don't know, say 20% of whatever you've got. So, if you've got $20 and that's going to be like 400 pesos for you, and they're taking 50, that's going to hurt you. So that's another thing.

      arrests, drug offenses, prison, inmates, treatment, drug possession, imprisonment, other inmates, treatment, guards;

    8. JC: As far as the migrants here, we're having a real bad time. It's not easy. Sixty-five pesos an hour sounds like a lot to somebody who lives here, but I want to take my family out for a vacation and I'm never going to be able to do that with sixty-five pesos an hour. Never, ever going to be able to do that. I'll save ten years and won't have enough money. These are things that are going on. People get deported, nobody cares about them. You're trash on the street. They don't even care enough to give you a piece of paper that's valid in Mexico. So you get out, you're nobody. Just because you get out dressed because you just got out of prison and they just did you over, you're clean, you just took a shower, but they just give you a dirty blanket and put dirt on your face, you're any guy on the street. You know what I mean? That's what's going on. So we've got to start from nothing.

      Policy to help migrants, US government and immigration, policy;

    9. JC: You can't just keep sticking people in prison all the time, you can't keep throwing them away. The problem is still there, you can't hide it anymore. It's happening. People are going out, and people are shooting people. The laws are getting stricter and people out there, they think if I'm going to go to prison for the rest of my life I might as well hold court right here in this place. And the government knows that if a father figure is not home their kids are more than likely going to end up being a low paid slave laborer in prison as well. Those are numbers, and that's something that can't be denied, you know? I was stupid and I fell into that number game. I regret that, but somebody needs to hear that, they need to know what's really going on.

      Prison, reform, Police: US;

    10. JC: Most definitely. Most definitely. Once we moved out of the first home we were staying in where it was predominantly all white—even though it's the San Gabriel Valley, Arcadia is predominantly white. After we moved out of there, we went over to Monterrey Park, it was a Hispanic community. This situation as a kid, I encountered gangs. My parents weren't home, and I would go to the park after school and the local rec department, play the little board games, but that's over at like five or six. My folks don't get home until eleven, I don't have anything to do, so I stayed at the park and I started hanging out, getting to know the local gang members. That's how I first encountered that situation.Claudia: Did you ever get involved in any of them?JC: Yes, I did.Claudia: Can you tell me a little about how that was like and what you did?JC: I wouldn't like to recount on the things I did because they're not something that I'm really proud of. But [Pause] I can say that I wish I had another chance. That's pretty much it. Recounting everything is kind of like a pointless situation, it's just a lot of suffering worded in different ways. I'm sure I'm not the first guy who probably told you that. The fact of the situation is simple—and I think it's better to be put this way—there's a lot of suffering going on, and it's not just me. It's a question of not only who you are or where you live or if you speak English or you don't, most people that go from here to the United States, they go to work and when they've got small children those children are alone at home. There isn't much for us out there, especially when we don't even know the language, so the only people that will stick their hand out to us or say "Hey, you're okay," are these guys.JC: You guys might call them scum, but they're the guys that lifted my hand. They're the guys that told me you're okay, they're the guys who told me we don't care if you speak English or not. So, they kind of became my family, I had no other choice, you know? So that's how I encountered them.

      Gangs, affiliation, activity, camaraderie, fitting in;

    11. JC: Well it's a combination of different factors. As just a regular teen, just to go through that is kind of awkward. You're in a rough spot. Being—how could I put it this way—of Hispanic descent in an area where it's not predominately Hispanic is also very difficult. The fact that you don't have anybody to express your situations to—because there's always my father and my mother, but they would never understand the situation I would encounter in high school because it's a whole different culture, they never experienced that—it's a very lonely time. And also hormones going around, and wanting to experience let's go to here, let's go there. Mr. Doltree was very important in that, trying to keep me settled down and keep me in sports. He's very good at that.

      School, struggling, teenage rebellion, teachers, mentors, mental health;

    1. Pablo: You don't necessarily need to go somewhere else. In the future, you never know if there would be an opportunity. I'm not going to stop him from... I don't know. There's a chance that in the future he decides that he wants to go over somewhere else or he wants... It just depends on him. I'm just going to support him through whatever he wants to do. As long as it's something good, I'm always going to just be there and support him.

      Dreams, children;

    2. Isabel: And this time you were also... Were you in the gang or just affiliated around it?Pablo: Yeah, I was in the gang.Isabel: In the gang as well?Pablo: Yeah.Isabel: And what do you think drew you to that? Because one thing my professor's interested in is the sort of factors that draw or bring kids into gangs and that kind of activity, away from school and stuff, what the trends are. What was it in your case?Pablo: In my case, where I grew up, we did have a few different cliques that were not getting along together. So it was basically... How can I say? Just wanted everybody to know you, everybody to respect you, and know that you were part of the best team, or best gang, whatever, that's it.Isabel: So would you say it was a pride thing or more protection?Pablo: Yeah, it's a pride thing. It's a pride thing. Yeah.Isabel: Yeah, especially if you had family members who were already in it. That's on top of being sort of like brothers through that. You're also already by blood, as well.Pablo: Yeah.

      Gangs, affiliation, family, camaraderie, fitting in, activity;

    1. I have been through so much in life. I just look at it as just whatever's going to happen is going to happen now. You can plan something for now, but shit changes. Sometimes things go from good to bad. Some things bad from good. You can't really tell life. It's destiny. I just made it to my mind where we're going to take it day by day. Whatever happens, happens. If I make it back, I would be so excited. If I don't, I don't. But at the end of the day, I look at it like either way, if I'm going to be here... I got deported 10 years. I've been here two. So, if I'm going to be here for 10 years, trying to be good and try to go back, I at least got to have some type of a life. I'm going to date somebody if I'm going to have more kids or whatever. But at the end of the day, I have that right to live my life. So, I just live it day by day.

      reflections, family

    2. Do you consider yourself Mexican or American? American like United States.Weco: Mexican.Isabel: Mexican? Why is that?Weco: It's in my blood. It's running through my veins. If I wasn't Mexican, they wouldn't talk about, "Oh, you gotta get deported." It's in my veins. I always say I'm Mexican. I'm proud of it. I love it. It's in my veins. We're the shit. We're the shit. This is the way I look at it. Where I was at in the States, a lot of construction workers, a lot of working places outside, any type of hard work was really us. Really us. Hot sun, any type of thing, it's us. Also, drug wise, it's us. We're out there. We're both ways.Isabel: You are really honest.Weco: I'm just being honest. We're both ways, and Mexico is known for that. A lot of good people, working people, and then there's drug people. They've got both.

      Identity, Mexican;

    3. Weco: Yeah, yeah. I was like, "If you didn't catch me, I'd still be there right now. But no, things worked out for a reason. You caught me for a reason." Everything happened for a reason. And like I told the judge before they deported me, I was like, "Look, Your Honor, I turned myself in. I got the record of not turning myself in. I actually got a record of escaping, running from the law during transportation, during whatever the situation is. But that's my record, running."Weco: And I told him just like that. "I'm actually trying to change. I got a son that was just born. He's not that many months old. It's something big, you know something big for me." But all I remember is actually him asking my baby mama, "Does he got insurance?" She was like, "Yeah. Anything would happen to him, insurance will cover him. He don't need his dad." So I just stood quiet. I was just like, "All right." My judge, my lawyer was like, "Anything else?" I just told him... I really went off. I just told the judge, I was like, "Think what you want. Feel how you want. But at the end of the day, somehow, some way, I'm a gonna to come back. You can take me away from my mom, anybody, but not my son. At the end of the day, I'm a gonna to come back. You're a judge. You've just got a black thing on. You ain't nobody to tell me shit. You ain't nobody. This courtroom ain't nobody. These handcuffs ain't nobody.

      Broken system, court proceedings, judge, undocumented, immigration status, deportation, family separation;

    4. Weco: If I was still in the U.S., I think I'd still have my job that I had out there, which was the cleaning, and I'd just be out there taking care of my son. That's all I was out there. When I actually got out on my bond and I had my son with me for that period of time, that's all I did. Just went to work, relaxed, came home. That's it. That's all I really done. After I had my son, I really stopped. I stopped all my bull crap. I grew up without a father, so I know what it's like. I told myself that's what they want, and I actually failed at that because I'm down here and he's down there. It hurts me sometimes, but at the end of the day, I made the decision. So, I have to deal with that. But I can tell everybody he going to grow up. He going to know the truth. He's going to know I fucked up. So if he accepts it, then we go from there. If he don't, I got to deal with the consequence.

      Dreams, what the US has lost;

    5. Isabel: Before we get to that, just to go back a little bit, can you tell me about your deportation and return to Mexico a bit? I guess return in parentheses, since you kind of grew up...Weco: It was all right. It kind of was hard to get used to it, walking around, looking. I'm used to having my car out there, having my own things. So, having to go from a car to a train, which is a metro here, going out there, it was difficult. Food wise, I'm used to just eating anything over there and going to some quick restaurant, whatever it is, fast food.Isabel: Yeah. What do you miss the most?Weco: Where I stayed at, we had Steak 'n Shake Rally's. I miss that so much. Out here we don't have that. The only thing I've actually had out here was IHOP, which is good. I like IHOP. But other than that, McDonald's don’t taste the same, I think. It's kind of different.Isabel: No, I think that's pretty common. Do you think that your adjustment was more difficult because you didn't really grow up here at all?Weco: Yeah.Isabel: Did it feel like you were entering just a completely new country?Weco: That's what it felt like, like they just dropped me off in the jungle.Isabel: Yeah.Weco: Just said, "Here. Just go from here. You're on your own." And mainly it's just I had no family out here. They just dropped me off and said, "You're on your own."

      Reason for return, deportation; return to Mexico, challenges, cultural differences; The United States, favorite parts;

    6. Weco: So, I was like, "Man. We've got an hour to get there. I got an hour to get away. Somebody is going to lose this one." So, during that process, I actually was able to take my handcuffs off.Isabel: How'd you do that? Just removed them?Weco: Yeah, I pulled them out. I pulled them out. He didn't put them on that tight. So, I pulled them out, I got loose. After that, we had a minivan. I still remember today. It's a minivan, the middle seats are not even there. I'm in the back seat. As soon as we get to where I was knowing we was going to get to, I said, "All right. We finna get off the freeway. It's a stop light. If that light turns red, I'm gone."Isabel: How old were you?Weco: I was 19, going on 20.Isabel: Was it like an adrenaline? Were you nervous? What was it like in that moment?Weco: My mind was just like, "Fuck it. It's my life or his life. It's going to be my life. He ain't going to..." I looked at it like just, "What? Just because he says and somebody higher than him says just because I'm illegal they're going to deport me? You're fucking with the wrong one. You're going to have to catch me." That's the way I looked at it. “You're fucking with the wrong one.”Isabel: So, then the light turned red, and what happened?Weco: As soon as we got there, the light was actually turning yellow. I was like, "Man, it's now or never." So, I just went ahead and got up. First thing I did was punch the window. It cracked. After that, he turned around. He was on the phone. I still remember the whole action. He was on the phone, dropped the phone. He was trying to put the car in park. He was trying to take his belt off. He was also trying to grab his gun and grab the cell phone at the same time, but it was just too much. So I just went ahead. And as soon as I punched the window, it came in my mind. I was like, "What am I doing?" I'm like, "Man, I just made this worse." So, I was like, "I might as well just complete with it."Isabel: Right. Like the damage is done, you think?Weco: If I did it, I might as well just do it. Because either way, if I don't do it, they're going to hit me with attempt to escape. It's like, "I might as well just go all the way out. I already did it." So, I just punched the window again, and my whole body went through it. I just fell, hit the floor, got up, hit the freeway, jumped a couple fences, hid through a alley, and I was gone. I was gone.Isabel: So, what happened?Weco: They didn't find me.Isabel: What?Weco: They didn't find me. It took them four days to find me.

      Arrests, police: US;

    1. Ivan: In this case Mexico, they need to change the way they think. How can I put it in words? Mexico is even, I would say, I don't know. I don't know about that one. They tried to make changes in the past, but it hasn't worked. The major problem here in Mexico is the corruption. It's all of Mexico is, the way it is right now, because corruption is just with corruption. I will say like, I don't know, I don’t know. I don't know how to change that, how would they do that? Because every time a new president comes in, they're like, "Okay, we're going to make a change, everything's going to change, no more corruption." And then they get to the power and they forget about that. They want everything for them, so I don't know how they will change corruption in this country. Because I will say they, they change the whole government. They make a new system, but people still going to be corrupt. I don't know how to answer to that one. That one's tough.

      Mexico, policy for reintegration, corruption, reform;

    2. Ivan: Be more open minded. I mean, we're in 2019, that kind of thinking like, oh, we're just a race, we don't accept you because you have a different skin tone. I don't think that kind of thinking fits in anymore because we're a society, we keep evolving as humans because we've been evolving since we were first here in the Earth. And it's not just physically, it is intellectual. Your mind just keeps growing and keeps growing, keeps growing, keeps growing nonstop. And I think welcoming people from another ethnic groups is part of evolution. It's going to happen one day. Especially the government now is trying to stop it, but that is going to happen someday. And I would say what the United States as a country needs to do is embrace the evolution. Yeah.

      The United States, worst parts, US government and immigration, policy to help migrants

    3. Anne: So you crossed the border again?Ivan: Mm-hmm (affirmative), I crossed the border again.Anne: Was that tough?Ivan: Yes, it was tough. I was actually lucky. Some people I heard they spent even a month trying to cross and I crossed just within a few days.Anne: Oh wow. So did you walk?Ivan: This was in Tamaulipas. It was a river. I crossed the river then.Anne: On an inter tube?Ivan: No, it's just a river, like a floating, how do you call these things? Just swimming.Anne: Oh, you swam.Ivan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I swam with some other eight people, eight people. Just a group of eight people. We crossed the river, it wasn't that long. Then there were some woods then we stay there for a while. And then after the woods there was some suburbs and then there was a car waiting for us. It was a small car. It was, do you know Neon Dodge?Anne: Yeah, Neon Dodge.Ivan: Neon Dodge. So it's a pretty small car. Yes. We all got into the car. And then they took us to a house. We stayed there for the rest of the day. When we crossed the river, it was around 10 o'clock in the morning.Anne: Uh-huh. (affirrmative)Ivan: And then when we got to the house, it was about 12. We stayed there in the house already in the States. And then we stayed there until like nine o'clock in the night. And then after that, we got into a trailer truck in the top. There is a part in the top, I don't know how to call it, but there's a part, there was a hole and we all got in there. And he drove us all the way to ________ and that was it. That's how I crossed. I spent a whole night in there laying. We all were laying.Anne: Was it scary?Ivan: Yeah. It was scary. It was scary especially when you get to the checkpoint. You know they tell us, whenever you hear the truck stopping, don't even breathe. Yeah. So it was scary, but I got the chance to cross. The first time I crossed, I crossed with my uncle. My cousins they're like my age and my brothers. So we crossed pretending we were his kids. That was the first time.Anne: Yeah. That was easier?Ivan: That was easier, way easier.

      Border crossing, general, river, migrants, border patrol;

    4. Anne: And how did the police find you? You said you were deported for having an illegal ID, which I guess you used to work.Ivan: This is funny because that ID I got it in North Carolina. This ID, I will use it anywhere, actually whenever I get stopped by the police, I will show him this ID. I don't know, probably was a percolation from North Carolina. They will alert you. It was not a ID from the government, but I don't know if somehow it was the account. You can identify yourself with that ID. And that would work fine in North Carolina. So this same ID, when I moved down to Texas, I brought it with me. But I didn't know. I didn’t know. I didn't even research.Ivan: So one time I was coming from the movie theater with my friend and it was pretty late at night because the movie ended like 12. So it was like 12:30, we were driving back home. My friend was driving, I was in the passenger seat and then this police pulled us over and he was like, "Oh no, it's just a checkup." They always ask for identification. So I show him this ID and it never crossed my mind. It never crossed my mind like I will get in trouble just for showing this ID. And they were looking, well, they took a long time, they came back and they were like, "Where do you get this ID?" And I told them. And there was a number in the back that they could call, but it was so late in the night. The police was like, okay, well, they interrogated me for a long time, asking me these questions. Well, at the end they decided to arrest me because they didn't know if the ID was legit or not. So I was like, oh, well what can I do? So they arrest me.

      Immigration, driver's license, ID, police, immigration offense, reason for deportation, arrests; States, North Carolina, Texas;

    5. Ivan: Okay. So I was 13 years old when I first got to the United States. At that time, my mom was already in the United States. She'd been living in the United States for about two years by then. And the circumstances why we moved to the States, just seeking better opportunities because by that time, we didn't have like a lot, what would you say that ... Here in Mexico, we didn't have a stable life. We didn't even have the needs, we didn't even have a house. So my mom moved to the States and after two years, she brought us to the States. When I first got to the States, it was a whole new thing, different language, different people, different culture. And not just one culture, it was a mixture. You don't only have people from one region, it's like a lot of races, if I can put it that way.

      Migration from Mexico, reasons, family reunification, economic, opportunity; Arriving in the US, first impressions;

    1. According to new data from analyst firm Apptopia, as the COVID-19 pandemic spreads, grocery delivery apps have begun to receive a record number of daily downloads. Today’s grocery apps offer more than just shopping for products online: they allow businesses to increase their sales, enter a new market of active mobile users, learn more about their customers, and make targeted offers that increase conversion rates and therefore revenue. In this article, we’ll discuss how to start a grocery delivery service by creating an app for your business, no matter if it’s a small store or a large chain.

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  2. inst-fs-iad-prod.inscloudgate.net inst-fs-iad-prod.inscloudgate.net
    1. t is often best to make concessions while still standing your ground,

      going back to agreeing and disagreeing at the same time, shows that you have a full knowledge of the subject and what it entails. It's easy to just say 'no'

    1. We just cannot know all that life will throw at us, and if we want our grading contract to be fair and equitable for everyone, we need to reexamine it, reflect on how it has been working for each of us, and perhaps adjust it. 

      This idea of re-evaluating at regular time points can be a very useful and powerful tool in more areas than just writing.

      Society as a whole needs to look carefully at where it is do do this same sort of readjustment as well.

      It's the same sort of negative feedback mechanism which is at work in the scientific method and constantly improving the state-of-the art.

    1. I only push back on this because I think it's important that recipients of 7s or 6s or 5s not be outright discouraged. It's very possible their script needs more work, but it's also possible they just didn't connect with the right readers. A close friend of my received 5s on his Black List submission, then a few months later attached a very well known actor to the same exact script. They've now shopped it and have a big production company super interested. BUT -- it's a quirky script and not for everyone. Not a shocker that someone gave it a 5.

      Nate Davis' reply

    2. This might be an unpopular opinion.It took my first script (MAD RUSH) many massive rewrites to finally reach the level where it scored multiple 8s and one 9, with the lowest evaluations being 7s (all of them with subscores of several 8s). This version got me repped and shortlisted for an MGM blind studio deal. But the rewrites were brutal. For one of them I did one complete month of solid bitching to anyone who would listen, before finally hunkering down and just doing it (3 additional months of full-time work).My second screenplay is TELEPORT (a pilot), which currently got a 6 and a 7, with positive remarks, but with very valid quibbles. An earlier draft was a Top 5 finalist in Big Break (out of 16,000 entries). I think with that one I'm about two rewrites away from ironing out the quibbles and raising it to a consensus 8+ level. Am I doing the rewrites? Hell yeah.What I'm trying to get at, it's NOT random. There is such a thing as a script being 'undeniable'. But most of us have a hard time accepting the fact that it takes a MASSIVE amount of energy to execute those big rewrites just to reach those last few percentage points of supposed perfection. We resist it like Hell. We say "it's good enough." We comfort ourselves by saying that "it's all subjective" or "no one knows anything" or the Black list is a scam, secretly pre-programed to always score our second evaluation lower or that there is a strictly enforced secret quota... But deep down, we know our screenplay is not the absolute best it could be.Metaphorically, we want the 96% Pollos Hermanos purity level of our meth batch to be good enough. Metaphorically, we refuse to spend an entire episode just killing one fly in order to reach the mystical-blue-hued 99.1% Heisenberg purity level. But that's what it takes if we want to reach the A-level.

      Manfred Lopez Grem

    3. I did 3 pitches. First one was a pass and honestly, I didn't pitch well. I learned from my mistakes and feedback. Second pitch was great, still a pass, I suspect, just wasn't his thing. Third pitch, I decided to stop pitching to reps and go straight to the source - procos only. I targeted the prodco to one that seemed like a perfect match. Stuck the landing and got a request. Remains to be seen what they think, but it's a learning curve. Regardless, I feel like there is someone to talk to. Before the pitch they email me tips and after a survey. Jason is very approchable and accessible.

      About Stage 32

    1. immy: So, he would start looking for jobs where he said, “If I weld this, just to do it, because this whole thing costs like 10,000 pesos, they're already like, ‘I'm getting paid, I don't know, 3000 for it. Y nada mas’” Like 10 minutes of doing it, the company was already getting paid thousands of pesos for it. And he was only getting paid like 1,000 and change a week.Jeimmy: So, he's like, "I'm working for this company that's making thousands of pesos, y a mi nada mas me pagan 1000 pesos a la semana. " [they are only paying me 1000 pesos a week] So he didn't like that. He's like, "They're not paying me enough for what I know how to do." So he started looking for more and more jobs, and he started noticing that jobs that have nothing to do what he does pay more than what he actually knows how to do.Jeimmy: So he became like chofer de metrobus,[bus driver] he became like taxista, [taxi driver] and he's like, "I don't like this. I don't like being a chofer. [driver] I want to do what I like doing. But it's not paid well here, so I want to go back to the States and work over there." So yeah, that's basically why he wants to go back.

      return to mexico, economic well-being

    2. Jeimmy: But then they start actually taking a taste of life. Like, "Oh no sweetie, it's not just this. We got to pay rent, we got to pay food, we got to pay the baby's diapers." So at the end, they're worse than if they would've just stayed with their parents. And I guess a lot of teens take that decision and make that error because they don't really know what life is.

      return to Mexico, challenges, cultural differences

    3. Jeimmy: And here, it's not like that. It's like the government doesn't help you in anything. So people don't care about a cell phone. They don't care about a computer. They just want to feed their kids. So these kids just grow up thinking that they're always limited. They're always limited to not being able to have this because their parents can't afford it.

      return to Mexico, challenges, cultural differences

    4. Jeimmy: But here in Mexico, they get pregnant at 16, they leave their kids with their grandma, and go party and do whatever they wanted to do during their age. And then it's like the little changes goes on. Then they're like 30 years old, their kids are 15 years old, and they're already like grandmas. So it's like a little cycle that just goes on and on.

      return to mexico, challenges, cultural differences

    5. Jeimmy: Both. Because it would be like you would pick the best out of both sides. For example, in America, if you have garbage, pick it up and take it with you until you find the garbage can.” And the Mexican version would be like—how can I say it? I don't know. It's just that my parents raised me like… I don't know.

      return to Mexico, challenges , cultural differences

    6. Jeimmy: American people are more like anti-violence, I guess. Like if your kid comes to you and they tell you that they're being bullied, you would go directly to the principal and you would speak with the principal, right? So it's like, "Okay, my kid's being bullied in your school, what are you going to do about it?" And the director would try to find a solution or what so on. And here in Mexico, if you go and tell, "les van haciendo burla a tu hijo” [they are teasing/picking on your son] he would be like, "Okay, well, I can't do anything about it. I can’t be just behind your kid all day." So what happened here in Mexico would be like, “mira mi amor si te pega, [listen my love if they hit you] you better whoop their butt. Because if not, coming home, I'm going to whoop your butt.” So that would be like the Mexican part. So yeah, I guess I would get like on both sides.

      Challenges, cultural differences, parents, family;

    7. Tim: Besides school when you came back, was it hard to like reintegrate yourself in Mexican culture after living in the US first for long?Jeimmy: Yes. I think it took me like about two years to integrate into myself. Because specifically in high school, I started... there's Spanish and there's Chilango. So, Chilango is way different than Spanish. They're like, "y tienes carnales?” " And I'm like, "carnales, what's that?" "si tienes hermanos?” And I'm like, "Oh yeah, I have two brothers." Oh, okay. And they would use those words, no?Jeimmy: So, I started like learning them. “Oh yeah. carnal significa [carnal means] brother.” What other words did they use? They would use expressions like, “ay ese hombre es un Don Juan,” [that man is a Don Juan] and I'm like, "Who's Don Juan?" And they're like, "Oh no. It just means that he's a player," and words like that. So I was like, "Oh, okay. This is like pretty weird, but I like it. It's cool."Jeimmy: So when I was in high school, this kid, he was like the most—I don't know, he was very hyperactive, but he was cool. He's like, "Hey Jeimmy," because everybody was like in break, "Hey Jeimmy." I'm like, “que?” He's like, "ya alcanzas a tocar el timbre," [did you manage to ring the doorbell] and I'm like, "What do you mean?" He's like, "Yeah, Jeimmy, ya alcanzas a tocar el timbre?" and everybody's laughing, and I'm like, “I don't know what you're talking about."Jeimmy: "Si Jeimmy si ya tocas el timbre, el timbre de tu casa?." [have you rung the doorbell of your house] And I'm like, "mi casa no tiene timbre.” [my house doesn’t have a doorbell] So everybody just starts laughing at me, and I'm like, "Oh my God, what did I say?" So later on, I tell my friend, I'm like, "What did he mean?" And she's laughing at me and she can't stop laughing at me. And then she's like, "Okay, he basically asked you if you've already had sex. But your response was, my house doesn't have a doorbell. So, it's pretty funny." And I was like, “Oh, okay.”Jeimmy: So yeah, you start learning all these expressions, all these some double centered words. And I mean it took me a while to learn it.

      Return to Mexico, challenges, language, spanish, accent, continuing education, high school;

    8. Tim: Were people mean to you because you had spent time in the US?Jeimmy: Yes, but I mean, okay. The first thing I noticed in Mexican school is that they don't even have toilet paper in the bathrooms. So it's like, "Okay. Did somebody forget to put toilet paper?" "No, you have to bring your own." I'm like, "Okay, that's so weird." And then it's like, everybody would think, I guess it's like they make themselves feel less because they think that you think that you’re better than them just because you know English and you were in the States and so on.Jeimmy: So they would be like, "ay la gringa se cree mucho porque viene de los Estados Unidos y habla inglés.” [the gringa is full of herself because she’s come from the United States and speaks English] It's like, "No bro, I'm nothing like that." So yeah, that was like ignorant children. But then you'll see that the teachers are just as ignorant because they're like, “Ay Jeimmy, lee la página tal" [Ay Jeimmy, read this page] I can't read. I don't know. I can barely speak Spanish. You want me to read it?Jeimmy: So I would be like, "el carro” [the car] and everybody would start laughing because I can't roll my R's. It's like, a ver di carro, di carro, di ferrocarril," [let’s see, say car, say car, say train] (In American accent) and I can't roll my R's. So, they'll make fun of my accent. And yeah, the teacher was horrible, and the students were also. In the four months that I was just in middle school, I saw how a teacher grabbed his seatbelt and whooped the student [Chuckles]. So, I was like, "Oh my God, this would not happen in the States." So it's really, really different.

      Return to Mexico, Challenges, cultural differences, continuing education, discrimination, bullying, language, Spanish, accent;

    1. Juan: Yes. There's a lot of things that the Mexican government can do. Well, personally, I have family here, my aunt, and she was nice enough to allow me to stay in her house. In that part, I didn't struggle to have a house, but there's people who do come back and don't have any family here, or they do have family, but they've been rejected by them and they don't have anywhere to stay. I don't know if maybe having shelters for them.Juan: I know New Comienzos helps people who … Sometimes they do go to the airport and they do welcome them to Mexico. I haven't seen any other community do that for their own people. New Comienzos does stand out because they do go out of their way to make you feel at home. When I had just recently got here, New Comienzos helped me out as well and I felt like I was part of a community, that I wasn't alone, that I have somebody else to help me out.Juan: If maybe helping out New Comienzos grow bigger, or making new communities for people who do come back, get deported, help them with shelters, work, emotionally. There's a lot of things that the government can do, a lot of programs that they can provide. For example, my program that I want to give out, making houses out of plastic for people who can't afford them. I can make them affordable so they can live there and they can have this at home.Juan: Then, build a community where we all help each other, change the way people see things here in Mexico, have them have a different point of view in life, grow as a community, help each other out. There's a lot of things that the government can do, but, unfortunately, won't be done because of the current government that we have. When we get into politics, there's a lot of things that just— we all see positive things, but with all the corruption here in Mexico, it's hard.Juan: Unless we change the government and we put somebody who's a doctor or an architect or an engineer to become president and they have a different point of view, not just the political view, we won't be able to change anything. It's more of a Mexico thing. I guess we're not going so far; we have Trump right now. I'm not sure how you guys feel about Trump. The way I

      Reflections, Mexico, policy for reintegration, what Mexico has gained, policy to help migrants, What the US has lost;

    2. Juan: Yes, because I lived in Provo, where all the Mormons are, and most of them are humble, most of them are nice people. I guess I got used to that. So at the moment, right now, I don't think I will ever adapt to the way people are here in Mexico. I don't know if you've met Mexicans who are from not the center, but the outside of the cities, their personality is just a lot different than a US citizen. They have different thoughts, different priorities, which makes them have different personalities.Juan: In that way, I am thankful that I grew up in the US, because the way that I am, I consider myself somebody who's humble. I don't really like to get in discussions or stuff like that. I'd rather just do my own thing, be respectful to everybody. The way you treat me is how I will treat you, that's the way I will always treat people with respect and stuff like that. In that way, I am thankful that I grew up in the US because I do have a different lookout in life.Anne: What do you miss most about the US?Juan: The vegetation, the nature, because I remember in the US I can go out in the soccer fields and there's actual grass. The mountains.Anne: It's beautiful.Juan: Yes. That's what I miss most about it, the nature.

      Favorite parts about the US, soccer, culture, friends, nature;

    3. Juan: Hopefully, once we get that going, we can get some houses here in the city, in the center. Then that way I can manage that then pay off school and work with that. My main goal is to be able to pay back … So my parents can say that they're proud of me, that the help that they provided me, it wasn't for nothing. Because how I see it is this thing could have gone both ways. I could've come back to Mexico and then I could've been in depression and started hanging out with the wrong people.Juan: Not go to school, not get a job, just not care of what had happened. But I decided to not go that route, to actually put an effort in my life, to have the ambition to grow as a person individually, also as a career, to grow. So, one day my parents can be like, "We're proud of you and we've always believed in you and the help that we provided you wasn't for nothing." I have a lot of goals in life. Actually, dealing with architecture.Juan: My plan is I want to have enough money so I can build houses out of plastic—not in the center because it's already big enough. I want to build houses out of plastic in the outside of the city, in Ixtapaluca, Chignahuapan, the outside parts of the city where it's really rural, really rough sizes, and help back to the community, be able to provide with houses that they are able to afford, but there are also houses that are … How do I say it? Houses that are … I had the word.Anne: Environmentally sound, maybe? Good for the environment?Juan: Yes. Good for the environment. Yes, to have a decent home. Because not a lot of people here have that. Supposedly the law here says that every Mexican citizen has the right to have a decent house and obviously they don't follow that. I want to be able to provide that to the community.

      Return to Mexico, dreams, what Mexico has gained;

    4. I got accused of something, which was a really big deal, and it all went downhill from there. I got accused and then I was working one day and the cops came looking for me and they were like, "Are you Juan?"Juan: I'm like, "Yes," so they're like, "You're being accused of this and that," and then I got sent to jail. I was being accused of a first-degree felony, so they were like, "If you're found guilty of a first-degree felony, you can take up to six to twenty years in prison." Right there, my whole life was—I hit the bottom. I was nineteen with a first-degree charge and it all went along, my parents, they got me a lawyer.Juan: I was in jail for five months fighting my case and then they found out that I wasn't guilty, so this is something really strange because—Anne: They found out you weren't guilty.Juan: Yes, I wasn't guilty. I was proven innocent, but the thing is that since it was a first degree felony, they usually don't drop it down. This is what I found out when I was in jail—because you learn things when you're in jail—that when you have a first-degree felony, they drop it down to a second or third degree and then they give you a plea. How do you say it? Yes, a plea.Anne: A plea.Juan: That wasn't my case, because I couldn't live with the felony on my record. From a first-degree felony, they dropped it down to a Class A misdemeanor, so obviously I wasn't guilty at all. I was proven innocent after five months [Chuckles].Anne: Couldn't they just wipe it out altogether? Why did it have to be a misdemeanor?Juan: Because the state couldn't lose, that's the thing. When you're in jail, you learn a lot of things and my lawyer at the moment, he explained everything. If we were to take it to trial and the state loses, it's going to look bad on them. Obviously, they're not going to let me live clean. They're going to want me to take one charge at least. So, what they did was, from a first-degree felony, they dropped it down to a Class A misdemeanor.Juan: They couldn't take off all of the charges because that would mean taking it to trial—it's going to cost a lot of money—so they were like, "Accept the plea deal and then you're free to go, but you will have the Class A misdemeanor. With time and with the lawyer, you can remove it from your record, but not a felony. A felony will always be on your record.” So, I took the deal, and then as soon as I took the deal, I was free to go, but immigration got me right there.Juan: Immigration got me, they removed my DACA, and after that I started my process with immigration. I was in jail for, in total, eight months. Five with the state then three with immigration. I think I would have been able to stay if I was married to a US citizen or if I'd had a kid, or if I had something that tied me to the US. But since I was nineteen, I wasn't married, I didn't have any kids, I didn't have anything that tied me to the US.Anne: The Class A misdemeanor, that's one of the misdemeanors that is disqualifying for DACA?Juan: Yes.Anne: Did they know? I guess your lawyer knew that this was going to happen.Juan: Yes. He knew that they were going to remove DACA.Anne: Though he told you that it's the kind of misdemeanor that you could expunge from your record?Juan: Yes.Juan: He did say we can stay, take it to trial, and here's the big dilemma. You could either win with the jury or you can lose with the jury. If you lose, then you can look up to twenty years in prison. But if you win, you live clean you know? But do you really want to take the chance? Taking it to trial does take a long time. It can take up to a year or a year and a half in jail, and I was already five months in jail. I'm like, "I don't want to be here anymore."Anne: You said that you were accused of a felony. Was it a fabricated accusation?Juan: Yes, fabricated accusation—do you mean was it made up?Anne: Yes.Juan: Yes, it was made up. It was a made-up accusation.Juan: The funny part is that once I was out of jail because … When I was with immigration, the judge found me … I wasn't a danger to society or anything like that. He let me off with a…How do you call it?Anne: A bond?Juan: With a bond, yes. Actually, it was a $10,000 bond. Then my dad came up with the money fast so that he could get me out of jail.

      Arrests, misdemeanors, felonies, false accusations, framed by police, racial profiling, reasons for return, deportation, court proceedings, judge, lawyer, case, trial;

    5. Anne: Did you do well in school?Juan: Yes. Even though English was a struggle, I always tried my best, and when I was in middle school, I would get As and Bs. Then, when I was in high school, like I mentioned, I was on the soccer team, which required for you to have good grades in order to play. I really liked soccer, so that encouraged me to keep my grades up to be able to play for the soccer team. So yes, I did have good grades, you can say.Anne: What position do you play?Juan: It depends. I could play center mid or forward. But ever since I got back to Mexico, I haven't played soccer. I guess it's a personal thing. I don't find soccer fun anymore. I did play soccer—my cousin who lives here with me, he has a soccer team. All of his friends play with him, but I just don't feel like I fit in, so I played a couple of games with his team and it doesn't feel the same. I don't feel the same playing soccer as if I were to be playing with my friends in the US, so I don't know. It's been a year, year and a half, since I played soccer. I just don't feel the same about it.

      School, high school, getting good grades, working hard, extracurricular activities, sports, soccer, friends;

    6. Anne: You immediately went to Provo, Utah. Did you know any English?Juan: No, when I went to Utah, I went into 4th grade and then I didn't know any English. What did help was that the elementary that I went to, they had an ESL—I think it's English Second Language—available for people who didn't know any English, so that helped out a lot. My brother and I didn't know any English. My mom didn't know any English. My dad didn't know any English. It was just rough.Anne: How long did it take to learn?Juan: To learn, I guess you could say by the end of high school my English, it still wasn't fluent, but the accent wasn't there as much. After I graduated high school, when I was in call centers, that's when I was able to practice my English on the daily, and I was trying to copy the way that natives spoke it. But it took me 10 years to be able to—Anne: But you were studying in an English school.Juan: Yes.Anne: You just felt your English skills were not great

      Time in the US, school, elementary, learning English/ESL; States, Utah;

    7. Juan: No, so my mom, she did have to walk when she crossed the border, meaning she had to get smuggled in, so she crossed by walking in the mountains. My brother and I … my dad found a lady who had two young sons who looked like us. What she did is when it was night time—I was eight, my brother was nine, I still remember we were in the back seat—and then, like any other family, we crossed the border.Juan: The guy from immigration, he just dimmed his light at us and they let us pass, so we didn't struggle. We just crossed with the car like normal, but my mom, she did struggle. I think she took three weeks. From what she tells me, it's the worst thing that could happen to her. Because whenever immigration were close by, they had to hide. I guess it's do or die because people do die when they cross the border and she's one of the lucky ones that was able to make it back to their families.

      Migration from Mexico, border crossing, coyotes, border patrol, injury/illness;

    1. Juan: Well, not really. It just, it bothers me a lot. It just bothers me, this indifference from the government. They are very indifferent. They know for a fact, because they even have programs to help immigrants returning. But the fact is, it's just to make them look good, to sound good, just to get a job. When in reality they're not helping anything. All that money that is supposed to go to help people, they're pocketing it. And it bothers me, it makes me angry about it. I know of many cases, I have seen many cases. I have been with them when they thought they had a job and they can't get a job. And that really bothers me. And as a citizen, I would like for this government to really get their act together and do something about it. Enough is enough, and they really need to start doing their jobs and getting their hands out of their pockets and do something about it.

      Return to Mexico, challenges, economic well-being

    2. Juan: And people are struggling out here. They can't find a job, they can't ... They are, a lot of times, living on the street. I know of people that are living on the street, they don't have nowhere to stay because they can't afford it, they cannot pay. How can they afford it if they cannot get a job? If they cannot get a job, if they can't get a way to make their living, how in the world are they going to do? What are they going to do? So many, many end up in drugs or in alcoholism. And I just hope, my hope is for this to reach the right ears and for someone to do something about all this crisis. Because it's a humanitarian crisis, that's what it is.

      Return to Mexico, challenges, economic-well-being

    3. Juan: What I really want to say is that I really hope that this interview can reach some ears from the right people, to listen and to really start doing their jobs, meaning for them to start working for people. And for them to stop all the corruption and bureaucracy that we live in Mexico. All that is, it's killing this country. The corruption and the bureaucracy, politicians, bad politicians, they are killing this country. And it's terrible and it hurts because it's just a matter of, if they were doing their jobs, I can almost guarantee you that almost no Mexican people would want to go to the United States and work and find a better life. And they do, I did, because I had no opportunities, I had no opportunities here. If they were doing their jobs and they were doing what they were supposed to, many people didn't have to go, they didn't have to leave their countries and their families behind. Just because they're seeking a better life.

      Mexico, policy for reintegration, corruption, reform; What the US has lost, Policy to help migrants;

    4. Adrian: Do you think there’s something, the government from Mexico, they can work together with the government of the United States so they can stop getting the families separated?Juan: I truly believe that they can. It's just, their politics get in the way. All of these immigration things, it's all about politics, it's all about control, controlling the American people and controlling the Mexican people. If they wanted to, they could have many agreements, so we didn't have to go illegally. And they could have had many, many agreements to allow people to go to work and come back. Because people don't want to go and stay. People do not want to go and stay there and live there. They want a better life. And they want to make money and many times just come back and do things that they cannot do because of the Mexican government.

      The United States, US government and immigration, policy to help migrants, what the US has lost;

    5. Juan: I miss everything. I miss everything. There's one thing, the United States is a country of laws. It's a country of order. And that's one thing that I loved because I used to feel safe over there. I used to feel safe and I got nothing but good things to say about the United States. Because the United States gave me more opportunities than my own country gave me. And, I got nothing but love for the United States. As a matter of fact, when the war started in Iraq, I even wanted to go and fight for the United States. Not expecting anything in return, I just wanted to do that because they gave me so many opportunities that my own country never gave me. And I love the United States and that's my family's country. And I certainly, I just thought it was mine too. And I got nothing but good things to say about the United States.

      The United States, favorite parts, safety, food, family; Identity, American;

    6. Juan: We had elections, presidential elections in Mexico. And I got here on March 15. And since it was election time, they stopped issuing the only identification that a Mexican citizen can have to do anything—to open a bank account, to rent a house, to get a passport, to get a driver’s license. That identification we cannot get because they are in elections and we are not allowed to get in until the election is over, which is in July. Ever since March, I haven't been able to get an identification where I can reestablish my life precisely because I cannot open a bank account, I cannot get a job. When you get a job here, they want you to get that identification. They want you to show that identification just to show that it's you. During this time, all the deportees and people returning to Mexico are going through a very difficult time. Just because these people, all they care is about that stupid election. All they care is about getting their jobs and getting elected and all, while we ...Juan: Every single program that is supposed to be helping us, they have, quote unquote, “programs that help you with unemployment insurance” and things like that. They're supposed to help you. On the contrary, they are just giving us the long run. They are just giving us, "Oh no, they didn't authorize the payment, you need to come back the next month." And next month… It's been three months already, I have not been able to get anything from them. And I haven't been able to get a job because I don't have an identification. That is so stupid and ridiculous because how are we supposed to live? How are we supposed to pay our rent or to even get money for transportation to go and look for another job?Juan: I can go look for a job, but it doesn't matter, it doesn't do any good because I cannot identify myself. I don't have an identification to identify myself. And the same problems that I have is the same problem that I see in many, many people returning to Mexico from the United States. These people, they are in very, very bad shape. Very bad shape because they cannot get a job, they cannot open up an account, they cannot register their kids in school. They cannot do anything because the authorities, they don't care. They don't care about us, they don't care about nobody but themselves. Another thing that I hate, I hate, I hate, it's like the time stopped and it never moved. When I came back, it was the same corruption, the same corrupted politicians, the same people that, instead of helping the citizens, they're helping themselves, putting money in their pockets. And all that money that is supposed to go to our programs to help immigrants and people like us? They're going to their pockets.

      Return to Mexico, challenges, corruption, bureaucracy, economic well-bring, Mexico, worst parts about being back, policy for reintegration, language, jobs, documentation;

    7. Juan: I was twenty-one when I left for the United States and at the moment, I'm fifty-two years old. I lived over there about twenty-eight years, so it was the majority of my life. I never thought about coming back to Mexico because I loved living over there. Just because I had my family established and everything. I purchased a house, purchased a car. A lot of times you can't even do that here in Mexico. It's very hard to purchase a house, to purchase a car. It's very, very difficult. But over there, I already accomplished that. And when I left over there, everything stayed back.

      Time in the US, things left behind, house, car;

    1. Josue: Coming back? Like of the entire process? I mean, being with ICE was horrible. And it's horrible because... So the people that have you detained, like in Tacoma, they're all American. And they never really mistreated us, not really. But whenever they turned us over in San Diego with ICE, they all got their last names right here, and every single one of them was Latino. You know, ‘cause they got their last names right there. They were the ones, you know, that had us up against the bus with our hands up with the guns pulled out.Josue: There’s a lot of them. So yeah, they're the ones that were screaming at us. They never spoke Spanish, it was always English. I remember one of the guys, ‘cause they had us walk in from the airplane to the bus with our hands up, and I think somebody put them down—I mean we're still shackled up, you know, everything. And they put them down and they all like started screaming at him, pointing the gun on him too. So that to me was like the worst of the entire thing. Just having somebody that, you know, they're all Latinos, treat you that way. I think that was the worst. And I don't know. Maybe the other part is the place that you go into after, right when you cross the border, they don't really give you any information.

      ICE, mistreatment by, detention, racism;

    2. Sergio: Since you've been back have you pursued any studies?Josue: No, not that either. ‘Cause I think that it's iffy, like whenever you want to use your diploma from the States, they don't just say, “Okay you did that and so you can now go on to college or whatever.” I don't think it's like that. You have to do something.Sergio: Has that been hard for you with your culinary background?Josue: I mean I wouldn't want to study that. I would actually want to study something that I can use here, like business or something, something where I can grow. But like I said, from what I've heard—I don't know too much—you do have to do something so that they can validate what you did in the States down here. But I don't know enough about it. That's it.Sergio: So that's too much for you, you don't want to go through that whole process?Josue: I would, but I think it's also pricey. Like I said, I just don't know enough about it to do it. But I know that you need money.

      Return to Mexico, challenges, continuing education;

    3. Sergio: So, you were detained in the ICE facility or were you not?Josue: Yes. Well I was in county first and that was in downtown _____, like right on Fifth Avenue.Sergio: How long were you in County?Josue: It was just a few days, like maybe a week, 10 days.Sergio: How did you feel there?Josue: It was okay. I was in a different area where you really are like in a fish tank ‘cause it's all glass right here and the cops are right there on like an island and they're literally just looking down at you. So it was fine. I mean it was horrible ‘cause it was county, but yeah, they didn't do anything wrong.Sergio: You didn't experience any abuse?Josue: No, no. They had us, really just watching us right there. So no, it was just the fact that nobody told me anything, they just kept on telling me to wait, that somebody would tell me what was happening. And that never happened.Sergio: So, if you were detained, you were detained by ICE. How long did ICE detain you for?Josue: Oh, I was there for like two months minimum.Sergio: Do you know where?Josue: Tacoma, Washington.Sergio: How'd they treat you there?Josue: Oh no, that was fine. Yeah, yeah. I think that was fine.Sergio: You ever have a bad experience?Josue: No. Well the thing is they are not ICE. They're a private company. A horrible part there was with ICE, whenever they actually get you to ICE. So, bad experiences, it was with ICE, not with the police and not with the other company. Yeah, it was with them.

      ICE, mistreatment by, treatment by, detention, imprisonment, treatment;

    1. Jose: No, I just feel that more people need to be more aware of the reasons people are in the States. A lot of people think they're just there to take their jobs, but it's not. People just want a better life. People just want to be part of something. I feel the States is probably one of the best countries in the world and it will be for the future because it's a culmination of so many countries and so many cultures. You take every other culture away, what's there really in the States? Everybody in the States was an immigrant at some point and people forget that. A lot of citizens that are racist towards immigrants forget that their grandparents at some point immigrated from another country for the same reasons they did. I just want people to remember that America is a country of immigrants.

      Racism, Xenophobia, worst parts about the US;

    2. Jose: It was kind of a drastic change when I was incarcerated for a mere traffic violation and deported—not deported, I got voluntary leave, actually. The only thing I knew is that I didn't want to be locked up like an animal for something so small. I'd rather be back in my city as a free man and try to earn my right to go back to the States legally and just live over there. It wasn't a good thing or a good feeling to be driving around, just being anywhere, having a fearing of being detained for any minority. I definitely want to go back. It's definitely a beautiful country and I just think the circumstances have been very difficult, but I definitely want to go back.

      Reason for return, voluntary departure, incarceration;

    1. Yosell: I think the only way I can put it really is just being strong. Because basically you got to learn how to mature in a faster way than you'd probably do it here. I've seen a couple of family members or friends here that are like 30 years old and they're still living with their dad and mom. They're just like not doing anything for their life, and opposed of people out there, most of them that I do know were just living by themselves and doing their thing. I'd say out there it's probably not that good because you’d get, because most of the people would get into some kind of a drug addiction or something like that. I’d say, here, here it'd be probably the same, but out there it'd be easier to make money. Here it's a lot harder. That's probably what's the difference here to there. That's what I'm saying, I think out there you learn how to be strong. When you come here, you're just like, "Oh." most people get depressed or frustrated here. Others actually know how to move on and continue. That's probably how I see it.

      Return to Mexico, challenges, economic well-being

    2. Yosell: The hardest part here in Mexico is actually I'm trying to live here with the economy that they have. One day transport is cheap, the next day it goes up, and then it keeps going up, and you're just like, "Oh." It's just really hard to keep up with it.

      Return to Mexico, challenges, economic well-being

    3. Yosell: I tried finishing my university out in Mexico, but this is the same thing. It's really hard to put your hours to work and go to school and stuff like that. It's just really hard out here.

      return to Mexico. challenges, continuing education

    4. Yosell: I tried finishing my university out in Mexico, but this is the same thing. It's really hard to put your hours to work and go to school and stuff like that. It's just really hard out here.

      Return to Mexico. education, college

    5. Yosell: I actually used to get paid for that out there, but just since I did end up just coming out to Mexico, I talked to my sponsor—which his name was called Jones, he was my manager out there—and I told him, "Hey, you know what? I'm going out to Mexico." And I got to say thanks and that's it. And he actually tried—when I got out to Mexico, I had contact with him a lot—he's telling me, "Hey, I want to see if we can get you a green card or something." I kind of didn't want to go back out to the States. I kind of just wanted to stay here. I really didn't even know Mexico, so that was part of it. I surfed a couple of times here in Mexico, but it's expensive out here to do something. You can't really do much.

      time in the Us, jobs/employment/work ; time in the Us, pastimes, sports, playing

    6. San Francisco and Venice Beach and all those kinds of beaches to just kick it. And I would see a bunch of my cousins surfing, so I think that's where it came on. I think I like almost any other sport, really, it's just like something that my dad put us into. He would take me, and I have two little brothers, out dirt biking a lot.

      Time in the Us, family, parents/step-parents

    7. Yosell: I can remember when I was just a little kid, my dad would actually take me out to San Francisco and Venice Beach and all those kinds of beaches to just kick it. And I would see a bunch of my cousins surfing, so I think that's where it came on. I think I like almost any other sport, really, it's just like something that my dad put us into. He would take me, and I have two little brothers, out dirt biking a lot.

      Time in the US, pastimes, sports, playing

    1. Joana: No, I don't think there is. I think I've said enough. I don't think anyone should go through that. It's pain, it's painful. You don't know how many nights I've fallen asleep crying just thinking about everything that someone could say to you or things that they have said to me. You don't know how much your words can hurt a person. How much just a simple word could end their life. A lot of people have committed suicide because of that, because they couldn't bear with everything that's going on. A lot of people have lost their lives. I don't think it's fair. No one should have to be afraid of going outside or going to work. You're just going to work. You're not doing anything bad. You're not going against the law. I mean, you're working. You're trying. As a student, you try every day. Other kids do bully you if they find out that you're not a U.S. citizen. They'll call you names. They'll pick on you. Some have been kicked, punched, etc. That's not what a kid should go through, especially not if you're really young. A lot of five-year-olds go through that. Imagine a kid going through that. An innocent child that shouldn't be put through that.

      Feelings, frustration, isolation, sadness, mental illness;

    2. Joana: I want to have a career. Now that I can, that I actually have the opportunity. Because in the United States, it was just like, "Why do I even try? Why do I even bother? I mean, at the end of the day, I'm not going to actually be what I want." The thing is, the education, it's really high in the United States; it's way better than here in Mexico. Here in Mexico it's just like, "Oh, well, you've got to learn this. You've got to learn that." I mean, I feel like I would have a lot of trouble here because I mainly will understand more in English than Spanish. So, if they're talking about laws or they're talking about this or that, I kind of get a lot confused. Not a little bit, a lot. It's like, "Oh my God.” I don't even understand what they're saying. I don't get a lot of professional terms. I don't understand them at all. My co-workers, if I don't understand something in Spanish, they'll be like, "Oh, it's this." It's like, "Oh, okay, okay. I get it now."

      Dreams, career;

    3. nita: Do you feel American or Mexican?Joana: More American because I grew up in America.Anita: What does it mean, being American?Joana: There's a lot... Being American, to me, it means you can do, you can be free. You can live your life like you want to. That doesn't mean you're going to break the laws. That doesn't mean you're going to commit an offense, but it means that you can actually live freely and without the worry that you're going to get deported anytime. I don't think that's living because you're always afraid. You're always afraid of anyone and everyone. You never know when that person's going to stab you in the back and call I.C.E. on you. That's what everyone's afraid of. Everyone doesn't want to say that they're undocumented. No one wants to admit it because everyone's scared. You don't get the same rights.Anita: When you say you feel more American than Mexican, what does that mean to you to feel it? I mean, I know that you're not an American citizen. What does it feel culturally or whatever way? In what way do you feel American?Joana: I guess in every way. There's a lot more connection to me with an American citizen than there is with a Mexican citizen. The cultures, they're so different. I mean, pizza isn't really even pizza here to be honest. A hamburger isn't a hamburger. It's an American dish. In Mexico they have other foods. They have other cultures. They have a variety of things. Being American, to me, it feels like I can go travel. I don't even know how to explain it. I just don't know how to put it. I guess, it means to me, it feels like... I really, I don't have the words right now. I guess it would feel... I don't, I can't find the words.

      Reflections, identity, American;

    4. Joana: Here, for example, if someone rapes you and you go to a police officer, sometimes they really won't help you. There's a lot of corruption that's mainly everywhere, from the president down. Everyone. It's pretty weird because the cartels, they're actually the ones that actually help their states out. They actually offer jobs and the president doesn't. It's like, why? But, it's just the way it is. You're actually scared to actually go up to a police officer because you know that if you get stopped, they're not going to read you the laws. They're going to ask you for money. You're not going to see a U.S. officer do that, ever. They're going to arrest you on the spot. Here, they don't do that. That's how Mexico is.

      Worst parts of being in Mexico, corruption, safety;

    5. Joana: I got arrested in _____. I moved to ______when I was about seventeen. I stayed about a year and that's when I.C.E. took me in.Anita: For what?Joana: It was, I think, an illegal turn, a U-turn. I was driving without a license because we can't get a license, but yet again, we do have to get to work. I mean, how are you going to expect anyone to get to work if they don't have transportation? You have to drive. It's probably the main thing that, why a lot of people get deported. That and raids.Anita: Is this the first time you were stopped just for making an illegal turn?Joana: Yes.Anita: That's the first thing you did?Joana: Yes. Well I had tickets, but I had never gotten arrested. I pretty much always paid my tickets.Anita: Then what happened?Joana: And then, well, I went into custody. They tried to get me out, but they couldn't. I.C.E. took me in. That's how I got back to Mexico.

      Deportation, arrests, traffic offenses, racial profiling, ICE;

    6. Anita: You were angry?Joana: Yes. At the laws. They say it's a free country, but it's not free for us. We got to work every day. You wake up at 6:00 A.M., you get home at 8:00, and it's still the same thing. Every day. No one sees that. No one. No one pays attention to what we go through. What we struggle. Some Hispanics really can't afford a lot of things, and no one tries to help them out. And when they try like right now…. I mean, Donald Trump really took a lot of things away. A lot of advantages, a lot of help, gone. We can't get them back. That's it.Anita: We're going to fight. You have some Americans here on your side.Joana: Thank you. It really does mean a lot. It seems like a small help, but it's a lot because no one has ever came up to me and asked, "How are you doing? How do think that's going to affect you? What do you think's going to happen?" No one asks. They're just like, "Oh, well, you don't belong here. You're not from here. You shouldn't even be here." That's how they treat us, and that's reality. You can't say anything back to them because at the end of the day it's kind of true, but it shouldn't be that way. They say we have equal rights. I don't see it. [Chuckle]. I really don't. We're not equal to them. We're not equal, and we work a lot harder. We really try our best. We try to follow everything step by step at the foot of everything. That doesn't help us. Some actually do become American citizens, and every time you see a case like that, it's like, "Wow, congratulations. You deserve it." Because who doesn't want to? Who doesn't want to be treated like an American citizen? We're not treated that way. We always get discriminated by something, and that's not fair. I don't think anyone, from any country, from anywhere in the world should ever get treated that way. I just don't believe it.

      Immigration status, broke system; feelings, frustration, anger, fear; discrimination, racism, xenophobia; US government and immigrants;

    7. Joana: I wanted to be a veterinarian. That was my dream. Or a teacher. I love kids. I love to teach. I love to help everyone. If I see someone struggling, I want to help them, and I can't. I felt like I could never do that. It's really hard seeing how some people don't even value that. A lot of American citizens don't look at it that way. They really don't care. They're like, "Oh, well, you're not from here. So, we can't do anything." That's just it. That's the reality for a lot, a lot, a lot of people.

      Dreams, veterinarian, teacher;

    8. Anita: Did you know that you were undocumented?Joana: When I was small, no. Then when I got older, in my teenage years, I did have the knowledge, but I was afraid and embarrassed for anyone to find out. Especially in school [Chuckle]. But I didn't know that education wise, they don't have a problem with it.Anita: Why were you embarrassed about being undocumented?Joana: I was embarrassed about being undocumented because I didn't want to get bullied. I was so afraid because I have seen cases where kids have been bullied. My brother was bullied. I didn't want to go through that. I was so scared, and I didn't want to leave my family.Anita: You mean you didn't want to get deported?Joana: Yeah, I didn't want to get deported at all. I don't think anyone does. No one wants to go through all the process. It's pretty scary. [Emotional].Anita: This was a secret that you kept?Joana: Being undocumented was my darkest secret. I didn't want anyone to find out. I was terrified. I didn't want to be separated from my family again, [Emotional] because I didn't grow up with them for about four years. It was extremely hard. Yeah.Anita: I can't imagine... I mean, you talk about fear, you talk about being ashamed, and then there's the issue about having to keep a secret.Joana: Imagine… I don't think anyone being a citizen has a fear of anything. They're free to go anywhere they want. They're free to do whatever they want. They can study all the way to where they want to get, and we don't. We don't get that opportunity. [Crying]. I don't think anyone should go through that. It's just, it's not fair. I had dreams when I was a little kid. I wanted to be someone in life. I wanted to have a career. That was probably the main reason of why I decided to drop out because I figured, I mean, I'm not going to get to go to college, I'm not going to get to have a career here, so why do I even try? They make us feel less, like we don't matter at all, like our lives are just worthless, and that's not the case. We contribute to everything. We try to follow the law. Still, that doesn't count. That doesn't matter at all. It's really, really hard. It's extremely hard.

      Immigration status, being secretive, living undocumented, learning status, hiding, in the shadows, lost opportunities, living underground, broken system, feelings, fear, isolation; deportation, fear of;

    9. Joana: It's been crazy. Pretty much. I cried. I remember that my mom went to pick me up and she basically stole me, technically, because I really didn't know her. I didn't want to leave, but I didn't have another choice.Anita: Were you kicking and screaming?Joana: Yes, I definitely was. I remember I opened my arms and my legs when they were trying to force me in the taxi, because I didn't want to leave. I was crying and yelling and screaming and I couldn't do anything. Yeah.Anita: So, did it get better once you got to ____?Joana: Yes, because I got to know her and, well, she was my mother. I didn't have any other choice but to get to know her. I mean, it was difficult because until this day I don't really have a lot of communications with her. I still don't have that connection. Pretty much, she spent her time working so we didn't really have time to actually sit down. She didn't ask, "How are you doing? How is school?" Anything. "Do you have problems? Are you having trouble?" I mean, nothing.Anita: So, why did she want to take you?Joana: Well, she said that I was her daughter and that she loved me. Well, she was sending money, she was taking care of me in a way, but I just wasn't living with her. But it wasn't her choice either, because when she left, she couldn't take me at that time. She tried to get me with her, and she actually did. So, it was basically that.Anita: Do you think her lack of affection, as you've described it, was because you didn't spend your first few years together?Joana: I think so. I think that has a lot to do with it, because I kind of see the way she treats my brother and my sister—she had them since they were born—every year, every day, every single minute. With me it wasn't like that. She already was remarried with my stepdad, of course. It was really difficult for me.

      Family, rejection, parents, siblings;

    1. Jesus: Changing a government, the thing that has been established for over decades, is like changing religion. [Laughs]. It's one of the hardest things to do. In religion, all the religions teach the same thing. Love one another, peace. So why can't all of them be just one religion? But, no. It's just separation. It's just changing separation, having to unify people when everybody's already separated, they've been like that for decades, takes a lot of people. I think the solution to that would be just unifying the country, and making that one goal, one human goal. The one goal that every human could have, and everybody could have access to food and shelter and stuff, but based on wanting the people to grow, want their knowledge to grow, because more people put their minds on one thing. It's easier for it to be done, it's proven. You get five people to flip a car over, they'll do it. If one person tries, they're never going to do it. So just changing everybody's mindsets and having the opportunity for everybody to live correctly, I think that would make a better world. It would help everybody use their minds for other things than just work. They could use it for their creative sides where they could start creating things that could help better mankind as a whole. Like free energy. Water is infinite—not really, because we're killing it, you know? [Laughs].

      Reflections, US government and immigration, policy;

    2. esus: The thing about government is, we're never going to be able to control it. It's only 1% that controls that system. So, trying to change the government is going to be the hardest thing to do. I'm guessing it's more like changing yourselves, changing the people, because the people are the majority of the people that live in the United States. So maybe just changing off from that racism and that stereotypes and all that, and going a different way, taking a different look at life where we're just humans.Lizzy: So, try to change people's attitudes?Jesus: Yeah. We should all just have a chance to do something. Maybe that will make the best out of everybody.

      Reflections, the United States, the US, policy to help migrants;

    3. Jesus: That's a really good question. Well, for me, it was mostly I didn't even know I was going over there, so everything was just interesting. [Chuckles] Then once I got there, life was difficult for me being an immigrant, especially because I did it illegally. If I had done it legally, I think it would've been much easier, and I would've probably done a lot better, had a lot of things to look forward to and stuff. But I guess, just open your mind. Just to be open to people, not judge a book by its cover. If you get to know them, you might know that they have other things that are better. Do you want to better yourself, better the world, better everybody? It's hard. It's hard when you don't have access to things. A lot of people need support. A lot of people have good ideas, good intentions. They just need that support.

      Reflections, policy to help migrants; Time in the US, social acceptance, discrimination;

    4. Lizzy: But it's a good dream. What about here in Mexico? Is there something that you wish people understood about migrants like you that have lived in the US and have come back to Mexico?Jesus: Well, to think things differently. To have a different approach on things because over there, it's more liberal in the States. They reserve some things, but if you ask them for help, they might be more willing to help you than here, because everybody here is super sketchy: "I don't know if you're going to rob me, I don't know if you're going to do this.” If I go out and I ask somebody, "Can I borrow five bucks just to get home?" They're not going to want to do it because they think I'm just going to go and get high or whatever. A lot of people judge me, even here. They think I'm bad or something. I don't know why. Last time I got kicked out of a store, I went to go buy bread and whatever. I was in the store, and this guy got super crazy. He's like, "No, you're going to rob me." He pulled out a knife and he's like, "You're going to rob me, you're going to rob me." I was like, "What the hell, dude? I'm just trying to buy bread." [Chuckles].

      Reflections, discrimination, racism;

    5. Lizzy: And I've heard some people say that they don't really feel like they're from here, they don't really feel like they're from there either. Do you feel like that at all, or do you feel more Mexican or more American?Jesus: I feel more like a human being from Earth. [Chuckles]. I'm not really even from any country in particular. I could be Japanese for all I know. It's just culture. It depends on what culture. But I like Mexican culture, it's super nice. Everybody says “Hello,” “Good morning,” “Good afternoon,” when you come out of the house. That's really nice. Over there in the States, I wouldn't see that. So, there's big differences, there's differences in lifestyles. They both have their good and their bad. Just human, you know?Lizzy: I love that, I love that you said that. We're all humans. Yeah. Why do we need to divide it?Jesus: Yeah, I always thought about that. There shouldn't be a division in the world. Everybody can learn from everybody else. Like you're doing now, you can learn from me as I can learn from you. What's the difference? It's just the barriers we place on each other.

      Identity, global, human;

    1. All of this also helps her develop ethos and come across as a credible source.

      Well .... looks like I had a totally different idea where ethos was shown, if you look at my previous notes. I'm not the author, but I find it a bit confusing to try and understand how Goforth was not appealing to ethos when she was very specifically showcasing her accomplishments, and education. It's probably a bit too simple to just say that was her appealing to ethos, but sometimes things can be simple like that, I believe. I think the way the author is interpreting her appeal to ethos is bit overly analyzed, and I don't think it's that complex. Ethos is an appeal to authority and credibility, and I believe the initial accolades she mentions early in her article are a better example of her appeal to ethos .... but I could just have a complete misunderstanding of the concept ....

    1. reflecting on the year after george floyd for me is that the different responses that we all have right are valid and true and authentic and they create

      reflecting on the year after george floyd for me is that the different responses that we all have right are valid and true and authentic and they create possibilities when they're read in you know its full context um but some of what is happening or some of what the role of the the classroom or the the person is to do is to try to say this is the range of the acceptable response and i feel like as a teacher our role is to kind of say you get to choose how you want to show up but base it in something that's real that's authentic that's not just about you this but it's about the collective so how do we cultivate that connection to collectivity how do we cultivate that ethical uh commitment and conviction to one another but at the end of the day how do we allow young people and everyone really the agency um to decide how they want to like show up—Christopher R. Rogers (autogenerated transcript)

      This is a powerful teaching philosophy. Return to reflect on this.

    2. that sometimes we don't give you know uh you know credit to or sort of like survive underneath in the subterfuge of what's happening

      you could kind of go deeper with that is um do the work of like fred moten and stephanos harney's uh black study or radical study in in the undercommons of of this idea of like um there are these molds intellectual practice you know that sometimes we don't give you know uh you know credit to or sort of like survive underneath in the subterfuge of what's happening—Christopher R. Rogers (autogenerated transcript)

      He's talking about work (scholarship) that may sit outside the mainstream that for one reason or another aren't recognized (in this case, because the scholars are marginalized in a culture mired in racist ideas, colonialism, etc.). At it's roots, it doesn't necessarily make the work any more or less valuable than that in

      cf. with the academic samizdat of Vladimir Bukovsky who was working under a repressive Russian government

      cf similarly with the work of Thomas Kuhn in The Structure of Scientific Revolutions.

      Consensus can very often only be consensus until it isn't.

      How do these ideas interoperate with those of power (power over and power with)? One groups power over another definitely doesn't make them right (or just) at the end of the day.

      I like the word "undercommons", which could be thought of not in a marginalizing way, but in the way of a different (and possibly better) perspective.

    1. There's a tradeoff to everything and everything has costs attached. It's only by understanding costs fully and factoring in not just the explicit costs, but the implicit costs can we as thinkers come up with policies that can identify what problems need to be solved and how to solve them.

      Every decision involves tradeoffs (can reference the A vs. B abstract example earlier). Every tradeoff defines an opportunity cost measuring the full value of what is given up relative to the best foregone alternative. It is only by understanding the full cost of a decision - the explicit cash outlays and the implicit costs of foregone opportunity - that we will be able to make predictions of how rational agents (we will define this term momentarily) will behave when faced with such choices.

    1. Erik: Or yeah, it's what I like. And more likely too much independence that becomes because the social opportunities you have. Meaning if you can pay your bills, you don't rely too much on your dad or your mom. Like right now, I live in a three-story house. Belongs to me, but I share with my mom. In the U.S., I have the option to say, “I’m going to pay my rent. Even though this is my house, I just going to move.” Right here, I can’t do that because economics. I got another house—it belongs to me—but is in a neighborhood that is no safe. People rob, and kill, and stab. So I stay with my mom. [Laughs]. So that's the difference. And the economics give you that independence. You know, well, I can rent another place. Is not a big deal.

      Time in the Us, living situation

    2. Erik: Because right here in Mexico, you can have a degree, you can have an education, but you don't get paid for. I used to make the same kind of money being just a laborer or working in a factory. You know? And it's not that I don't like to be a psychologist, it's just that economics is a big motivation to keep studying. You know what I mean? And well, I don't volunteer, but I've been working a lot of psychology issues like assisting people working on rehab centers. Like, NA, Narcotics Anonymous. And being listen their problems, and talking to them, and tell them how I left the drug issues and all that. So I just get tired of psychology, you know? [Laughs].

      Migration from Mexico, reasons, economic, education; Mexico, School; Psychology;

    1. Frank: Sometimes they say, "I don't trust Mexicans because Mexicans, they're criminals. So I don't want to give any of my personal information”. Even if it's just for payment or just for providing any information, knowing that they are calling their company, we're not calling them. It's basically their information is secure with us and it's not just for being Mexican that I'm going to rob them, but it happens all the time.

      Racism, worst parts about the US;

    2. Because I was searching for any type of programs that we can go to the US, but as we know, they're always requiring not living in the US before. They also require a visa, which is impossible to get in Mexico.Lizzie: Impossible. Yep.Frank: It's really impossible because you need to, why I tell you this because I also try to get visa. You need to give a banking account with more than 50,000 Pesos. Also, that's just for a week that you can only go and that's as a tourist and you have to have a family member or a friend or a relative that gives proof that you're going to that address. We know that most people are scared of providing information to the government.

      The United States, worst parts, policy to help migrants, immigration status, broken system; US government and immigration;

    3. So, she offered it to me that we can continue, try to see if we can get any type of help so you can continue studying and also my parents offered me if I wanted came back to Mexico because I wanted to get into the Army, but they told me that if I want to serve to country that I should serve to my country. So that's another reason why I also come back to Mexico.Lizzie: Did you think about serving in the Army in the U.S. or in Mexico?Frank: Actually, this get into my mind because my brother when he was on the senior high, he got this paper saying that he wanted to serve but it was just a copy, not the hard copy. My dad just break it off and say if you want to go serve to a country, serve to your country. My brother came on to tell us in 2015 and in 2016 that he get into the Mexico army.Lizzie: Do you still want to join the army here?Frank: Actually, I try it four times. I try first for an engineer and because of the culture exam I wasn't able to get in. On the second one. I got into like a backup, but it was for medicine. I wanted to be a surgeon and because of the spaces we have to wait 15 days to see if anyone quits and if it's the case and we still have time, then they get from the reserve and they join, they complete the groups again, but I stay on the seventh space, so I needed seven people more to quit so I could get in to join in. The other two times I tried again, but the first time they told me for the engineer [program] I was over the age that I wasn't able to continue on because I wanted to get into the army to continue studying, but they told me because of the age I was not able to get into that program.

      Military, Army, Mexico, US; lost opportunities, age;

    1. Zayuri: That's a hard one. It's quite hard because if you ask people, they're not even going to... I have asked my cousin, "What do you think of me? Do you think I sound more American or you think I sound more Mexican? What do you think?" They were like, "I don't know. You just sound weird." I was like, "That's another point to my self-esteem. Thank you." Oh god, that is hard. I'll say I'm more Mexican, I guess.

      Return to Mexico, Descrimination/stigmitization

    2. Zayuri: Yeah. The memes that are funny in Spanish is so hard to translate to other people. For example, my roommate, she speaks English and Spanish, but she's completely from here. She has never lived in another country. She has visited other countries, but she just has lived here. Sometimes I'm laughing at a meme from the United States or even worse ones, the German ones, are so hard to me to translate, because I'm trying to, “Okay, you see this picture right here? Let me put you in context.” Then there's like a 30 minute rant trying to explain the context. And that's why it's funny. “You get it?” “No.” I try. That's it.

      Return to Mexico, cultural differences

    3. Zayuri: No, I didn't. My father always told me that we had to be very discreet, keep things private. “If they ask you, you were born here. Don't mention things about the family and all of that stuff.” He almost made it look like, "Don't say you're Mexican. Just say you're really tan." That's it. [Laughs]. If they ask you, you're really tan. That's it. I was like, "Okay. I'll try my best. I think it's pretty obvious that we're not here, but I'll try."

      Time in the US, Immigration Status, living undocumented, not knowing status, learning status

    4. Zayuri: Yeah, that was my chance to make a friend. I'm really shy. It really causes me to not talk to people. It's really hard for me to do that. I still have nightmares with that. I was like, "I could have made a good friend, and I just let it pass."

      Time in Mexico, Discrimination/ stigmitization

    5. Zayuri: Yeah, it was really annoying, because, for example, a couple of months ago, like two months ago, I got robbed here. That whole day was such a bad day for me. I don't remember much; I just remember the downhill of it. I went to a cineteca, and I had two phones by this time. I will say that one was mostly for work, it was very simple, it didn't even have a nice camera or anything. That phone had been in the family for like four years. It was first the phone of one of my uncles. Then he gave it to my grandma, and my grandma gave it to me. And it was still working. It had a couple of malfunctions, but it was working. That was my phone.Zayuri: Then I had a nice one that I bought with my savings because of the camera, because I wanted to take pictures and everything. On that day, I went to the cineteca, I went to the bathroom, and I dropped the one that was for my work and everything. I dropped it, and the screen just turned black. I was like, "Okay, this is not good." It did turn off. It did turn on, and I can hear it, but I didn't saw anything at all. I was like, "Okay." So, I was like, "It's not a big deal. I still have the nice one. I could just live with just one. That will be okay." I was trying to not pay that much attention to that.Zayuri: So, I was walking around, trying to get a couple of pictures. It wasn't even that late at night. It was like 9:00. There was still a couple of just people walking around because it was in [inaudible]. I was like, "Yeah, this is okay." I was trying to be calm because I still had the thing for the phone. I was like, "Yeah, it's not that bad. I still have this one." Then I got robbed. They took that phone—Isabel: In the same day?Zayuri: Yeah. They took that phone away, and they took my money. Then I saw a couple of police officers, and I told them—because he wasn't even running, the person who took my stuff. He was walking. I was like, "Yeah, he just robbed me. Could you do something about it?" And they didn't believe me because I had the other phone. So, they thought that I was trying to scam him. They were like, "Yeah? He took your phone? And why do you have one right there?" And I was like, "I can prove that they're both mine. I can unlock that one, and I can show you the pictures on it, whatever you ask me." They told me that they couldn't—how do you call that?Isabel: Pat down or legally search?Zayuri: They couldn't do that. I was like, "Yes, you can. I'm pretty sure that you can do that." It was like, "No, there's no witnesses. We can't do anything about it." I was like, "Okay. I think I'm going to leave right now." I didn't have any money with me, and my Uber with my credit card was on that phone. I was like, "I don't know how am I going to get to my house," and I was really, really far away from my house. I was like, "Okay, can you guys take me there?" I said that to the police officers. They were like, "No. We don't go that far. We just have to stay in our area." I was like, "So, what do I do now?" They were like, "Take a taxi." I was like, "Okay."Zayuri: I remember that I was so depressed because when I saw the police officers, I was like, "Yes! I'm going to get my things again!" I didn't even care if he went to jail or anything. I just really wanted my stuff, and I told them right there, “I don't care if he goes to court or if anything. I just want my stuff back. That's it. I'm not even going to press charge. I just really want my stuff. I need it. That's my phone, and that is my nice phone.”Isabel: You bought with your own money.Zayuri: The other one is broke. They didn't care. I remember I just got to the house, and I said to my roommate... She was like, "What happened? You look so sad." I was like, "Yeah, I didn't have a nice day. We'll talk about it in the morning." I just went to sleep. And in the morning, I was crying with her, and she was like, "What happened?" I was like, “I don’t know where to start” [Mimics crying]. That was really traumatizing in the beginning.

      interactions with police, profiling, mistrust, Mexico

    6. Isabel: Yeah. Yeah, that's also kind of some rhetoric we hear is, when someone spends time in the United States, then everyone assumes, oh, because you lived in the US for a while, you think you're better or you have more money or all these ideas may not even be true.Zayuri: No, it's not even true. So, my father told me, "You're about to turn 18. You go to Mexico." I was talking about going to college, and he said, "Oh, hell no! You're not getting to college in here." I was like, "Well, why not?" He was like, "Have you ever heard of a student loans?" I was like, "I think I have seen memes about it. That's about it." But I couldn't understand. Still, right now, it's a very abstract concept to me. How can you debt that much money by going to the school? How is going to college that expensive? That's crazy expensive.Isabel: No, I know.Zayuri: It's just way too scary for me. He said, "We can't afford to pay college here. If you want to go to university, it's going to be in Mexico, and choose a state where you have family because you are going to live with them." So, I went to Zacatecas, and I got into college. I didn't even last a semester. I drop out. It was just too much. It was horrible.Isabel: What was difficult?Zayuri: Everything. I mean, being away from your family and having to—I mean, they helped me out, or at least that's what my father said, but I still had to pay a part of the rent and food services and everything and having to work and going to a college at the same time. Also, especially in Zacatecas, the salaries, the wages, are so low. It was depressing.

      College, student loans, United States; misperceptions, college, United States; return to Mexico, disappointment, lack of opportunity, depression

    7. Zayuri: Yeah. It's just better for me, for my mental health in general because I also have anxiety. So, the noise really triggers me out, and I get headaches and stuff. I was like, "Yep, got to get out of here."Isabel: Yeah. You mentioned that you liked school.Zayuri: Yeah, I have always been a huge nerd. [Laughs].Isabel: I'm the same way.Zayuri: No, I really enjoy it. For example, nowadays, my brothers, they have better opportunities than what I had. For example, the things that I know about languages and music is because I looked for my way and because we were there. But growing up, my father always told me that we couldn't afford classes, and we couldn't afford to go to different schools and special schools for that. Now they're having it. Now that my brothers are here in Mexico, my father—well, my mom—because they separated. Now she's taking them to the languages school, and she's taking them to music classes and all of that. To be honest, I'm not jealous. I'm not like, "Why do they have that and I didn't?" I'm really happy for them. I understand that they are just getting better.

      Mental Health; Education

    1. failure for learning

      Not just in the classroom - in life. Failure is part of human life, relationships, and work, and it's important we help students understand and accept that as Sharpe states.

    1. like the semantic web space don't end up going anywhere because they follow like the general form of like man if everyone's structured out of this way then things would be really great and they're not even necessarily wrong it's just like uh how do people start 00:48:35 doing that um so yeah yeah i don't have any answers for this

      semantic web space dont' end up going anywhere

    1. Author Response:

      Reviewer #1:

      In this study, Sias and colleagues examined the neural mechanism underlying stimulus-outcome associations using a Pavlovian-to-instrumental transfer (PIT) task in rats. Rats were first trained in a Pavlovian conditioning task in which two different auditory stimuli (white noise or tone) predicted different outcomes (sucrose solution or food pellet). The rats were then subjected to an instrumental conditioning and a PIT test to examine stimulus-outcome associations. The authors first used fiber photometry to examine the bulk calcium signals from the basolateral amygdala (BLA) during Pavlovian conditioning, and found that a population of BLA neurons are activated at the onset of a conditioned stimulus and at the time of reward retrieval. The response was observed from the first day and the magnitude was relatively constant over the entire period (8 days), indicating that the population activity contained responses to novel auditory stimuli. The authors then performed optogenetic inhibitions of BLA neurons at the time of reward delivery and consumption during Pavlovian conditioning. Although the BLA inhibition did not affect the acquisition of Pavlovian approach to the reward port, it impaired a facilitation of pressing the lever associated with a specific outcome predicted by an auditory cue, supporting a role of BLA in learning to predict specific outcomes, not just reward generally. The authors also examined the role of interactions between BLA and the lateral orbitofrontal cortex (lOFC), first by inactivating lOFC axons in BLA, and then by a serial circuit disconnection experiment combining optogenetic and pharmacogenetic inhibitions of specific projections.

      Although the role of BLA and lOFC in learning has been studied extensively, this study extends these studies by performing temporally specific inhibitions using optogenetics, axonal inactivation, and serial disconnection experiments. The finding that the BLA-lOFC circuit is not necessary for the acquisition of simple Pavlovian approaches but critical for outcome-specific stimulus-outcome associations is surprising. The authors performed sophisticated and difficult experiments, and the experiments are generally well done. The manuscript is clearly written, and the results are discussed carefully.

      We appreciate this thoughtful evaluation of our manuscript.

      I have one relatively minor concern regarding the description of the serial disconnection experiment. Overall, the manuscript provides interesting results and warrants publication at eLife.

      1) The use of a serial circuit disconnection experiment (Figure 5) is elegant and informative. However, the authors could have achieved almost the same goal by bilateral inactivation of axonal terminals of lOFC->BLA projections during the encoding phase or BLA->lOFC projections during the retrieval phase.

      We did these bilateral axonal terminal inactivation experiments. They showed us that the lOFCBLA pathway is involved in the learning (Figure 4) and the BLAlOFC pathway is involved in the retrieval (Lichtenberg et al., 2017) of stimulus-outcome memories. But these experiments are not capable of providing information on whether these pathways form a circuit. That is, whether BLAlOFC projection activity mediates the use of the associative information that is learned via activation of lOFCBLA projections or whether these pathways tap in to independent information streams. Our goal with the serial disconnection experiment was to address this specific circuit question. We have clarified the logic of this experiment.

      • Results on Pg. 10: “But it remains unknown whether BLAlOFC projection activity mediates the use of the associative information that is learned via activation of lOFCBLA projections. That is, whether lOFCBLAlOFC is a functional stimulus-outcome memory encoding and retrieval circuit or whether lOFCBLA and BLAlOFC projections tap in to independent, parallel information streams. Indeed, stimulus-outcome memories are highly complex including multifaceted information about outcome attributes (e.g., value, taste, texture, nutritional content, category, probability, timing, etc.) and related consummatory and appetitive responses (Delamater & Oakeshott, 2007). Therefore, we next asked whether the lOFCBLA and BLAlOFC pathways form a functional stimulus-outcome memory encoding and retrieval circuit, i.e., whether the sensory-specific associative information that requires lOFCBLA projections to be encoded also requires activation of BLAlOFC projections to be used to guide decision making, or whether these are independent, parallel pathways, tapping into essential but independent streams of information. To arbitrate between these possibilities, we multiplexed optogenetic and chemogenetic inhibition to perform a serial circuit disconnection. We disconnected lOFCBLA projection activity during stimulus-outcome learning from BLAlOFC projection activity during the retrieval of these memories at the PIT test (Figure 5a)… …If BLAlOFC projection activity mediates the retrieval of the sensory-specific associative memory that requires activation of lOFCBLA projections to be encoded, then we will have bilaterally disconnected the circuit, attenuating encoding in one hemisphere and retrieval in the other, thereby disrupting the ability to use the stimulus-outcome memories to guide choice behavior during the PIT test. If, however, these pathways mediate parallel information streams, i.e., independent components of the stimulus-outcome memory, the expression of PIT should be intact because one of each pathway is undisrupted to mediate its individual component during each phase.”

      Furthermore, if there are contralateral projections, the experimental design might have a problem. Please clarify these points.

      This is a great point that we did not discuss as clearly as we could have. We appreciate the opportunity to clarify our logic. There are both ipsilateral and contralateral lOFCBLA projections. For this reason, we optically inactivated both the ipsilateral and contralateral lOFC input to the BLA of one hemisphere, leaving both the ipsilateral and contralateral lOFCBLA projections to the BLA of the other hemisphere intact. To achieve this, we expressed the inhibitory opsin ArchT bilaterally into the lOFC and placed the optical fiber unilaterally in the BLA. BLAlOFC projections are largely ipsilateral and so we expressed the inhibitory designer receptor hM4Di unilaterally in the BLA and put a guide cannula for CNO infusion over the hemisphere opposite to that in which we had placed the optical fiber. We have clarified this logic in the revised results and methods:

      • Results Pg. 10 ¶2: “For the disconnection group (N = 10), we again expressed ArchT bilaterally in lOFC neurons (Figure 5b-d) to allow expression in lOFC axons and terminals in the BLA. This time, we implanted the optical fiber only unilaterally in the BLA (Figure 5b-d), so that green light (532nm, ~10mW), delivered again during Pavlovian conditioning for 5 s during the delivery and retrieval of each reward during each cue, would inhibit both the ipsilateral and contralateral lOFC input to the BLA of only one hemisphere. In these subjects, we also expressed the inhibitory designer receptor human M4 muscarinic receptor (hM4Di) unilaterally in the BLA of the hemisphere opposite to the optical fiber and in that same hemisphere placed a guide cannula over the lOFC near hM4Di-expressing BLA axons and terminals (Figure 5b-d). This allowed us to infuse the hM4Di ligand clozapine-n-oxide (CNO; 1 mM in 0.25 µl) prior to the PIT test to unilaterally inhibit BLA terminals in the lOFC, which are largely ipsilateral (Lichtenberg et al., 2017), in the hemisphere opposite to that for which we had inhibited lOFCBLA projection activity during Pavlovian conditioning. Thus, we optically inhibited the lOFCBLA stimulus-outcome learning pathway in one hemisphere at each stimulus-outcome pairing during Pavlovian conditioning, and chemogenetically inhibited the putative BLAlOFC retrieval pathway in the opposite hemisphere during the PIT test in which stimulus-outcome memories must be used to guide choice.”
      • Methods on Pg. 19 ¶1: “The disconnection group (N = 10) was infused with AAV encoding the inhibitory opsin ArchT (rAAV5-CAMKIIa-eArchT3.0-eYFP; 0.3 µl) bilaterally at a rate of 0.1 µl/min into the lOFC (AP: +3.3; ML: ±2.5; DV: -5.4 mm from bregma) using a 28-gauge injector tip. Injectors were left in place for an additional 10 minutes. An optical fiber (200 µm core, 0.39 NA) held in a ceramic ferrule was implanted unilaterally (hemisphere counterbalanced across subjects) in the BLA (AP: -2.7; ML: ±5.0; DV: -7.7 mm from dura) to allow subsequent light delivery to both the ipsilateral and contralateral ArchT-expressing axons and terminals in the BLA of only one hemisphere. During the same surgery, in the hemisphere contralateral to optical fiber placement, a second AAV was infused unilaterally at a rate of 0.1 µl/min into the BLA (AP: -3.0; ML: ±5.1; DV: -8.6 from bregma) to drive expression of the inhibitory designer receptor human M4 muscarinic receptor (hM4Di; pAAV8-hSyn-hM4D(Gi)-mCherry, Addgene; 0.5 µl). A 22-gauge stainless-steel guide cannula was implanted unilaterally above the lOFC (AP: +3.0; ML: ±3.2: DV: -4.0) of the BLA-hM4Di hemisphere to target the hM4D(Gi)-expressing axonal terminals, which are predominantly ipsilateral.”

      Also, the control experiments are now shown in Figure 5-2. It would be useful to have it in a main figure.

      We have incorporated the ipsilateral control group data into the main Figure 5 (Pg. 11). As you can see below, because there were no differences between the two control groups (contralateral fluorophore only eYFP/mCherry & ipsilateral ArchT/hM4Di), we combined them into a single control group for comparison to the disconnection group. The individual data points in Figure 5 are coded by control group (eYFP/mCherry solid lines and circles, ipsilateral ArchT/hM4Di dashed lines and triangles). We also provide the data with the control groups disaggregated showing a comparison between all three groups in Figure 5-2 (Pg. 43)

      • Results on Pg. 10 ¶2: “The control group received identical procedures with the exception that viruses lacked ArchT and hM4Di (N = 8). To control for unilateral inhibition of each pathway without disconnecting the circuit, a second control group (N = 8) received the same procedures as the experimental contralateral ArchT/hM4Di disconnection group, except with BLA hM4Di and the lOFC guide cannula in the same hemisphere as the optical fiber used to inactivate lOFC axons and terminals in the BLA (Figure 5-1). Thus, during the PIT test, for this group the BLAlOFC pathway was chemogenetically inactivated in the same hemisphere in which the lOFCBLA pathway had been optically inactivated during Pavlovian conditioning, leaving the entire circuit undisrupted in the other hemisphere. These control groups did not differ on any measure and so were collapsed into a single control group [(Pavlovian training, Training: F(2.2,31.3) = 12.96, P < 0.0001; Control group type: F(1,14) = 0.02, P = 0.89; Group x Training: F(7.98) = 0.76, P = 0.62) (PIT Lever presses, Lever: F(1,14) = 14.68, P = 0.002; Control group type: F(1,14) = 0.38, P = 0.55; Group x Lever: F(1,14) = 0.43, P = 0.52) (PIT Food-port entries, t14 = 0.72, P = 0.48)]. See also Figure 5-2 for disaggregated control data.”

      Reviewer #2:

      This manuscript aimed to dissociate two potential roles of the basolateral amygdala (BLA) in choice behavior: (1) contributing to sensory-specific stimulus-outcome memories or (2) assigning general valence to a reward-predictive cue. The authors used a well-validated Pavlovian-to-instrumental transfer (PIT) test with a series of circuit manipulations to show that lateral OFC to BLA projections are necessary for learning specific cue-outcome associations, rather than general valence, and that return BLA to lateral OFC projections are important for using that learned information in the PIT test.

      Overall, this paper addresses a question that is important to anyone studying amygdala or orbitofrontal function. The study is well-designed, the multiplexed opto-chemogenetics experiment is particularly creative, and there are convincing results with appropriate controls.

      We appreciate this thoughtful evaluation of our manuscript.

      I only have a few minor questions about the calcium signals reported in the first portion of the manuscript. First, there is a steep rise in calcium signal in panel 1f, suggesting that the signal is time-locked to the cue. However, there is a qualitatively different response to rewards in 1g. Is this just because it's more difficult to time-lock to the animal's movements than an experimentally-controlled cue? Or is it possible that there's another source in the experimental set-up that could be triggering the response. For example, does the reward delivery make an audible sound?

      You are absolutely right that the signal is not as time-locked to the reward collection because the rats collected the reward at somewhat variable times after delivery, which is, indeed, signaled by a subtle, but audible cue (pellet dispenser click or pump onset). To clarify this, we have now included Figure 1-4 (Pg. 35) showing the BLA calcium response to reward delivery. As you can see, the BLA reward response is also detectable when the data are aligned to the reward delivery, but there is still not as sharp of a response as that to the cue onset, likely owing to slight variability in the precise moment that the reward is perceived.

      • Reference in Results Pg. 5 ¶2: “The same BLA reward response could also be detected when the data were aligned to reward delivery (Figure 1-4).”

      Second, in Fig 2, is there any change in the reward response across training sessions, or is this signal also stable?

      This is an interesting question, but unfortunately one we are not able to answer because we only recorded during one unpredicted reward delivery session after the last CSØ session. Because we saw that the BLA GCaMP response to the CSØ decreased and was nearly completely absent on the last day of exposure we wanted to make sure that this was not due to signal degradation over time, so we recorded during an unexpected reward session to serve as this positive control. We have now clarified this logic in the results.

      • Results Pg. 6 ¶1: “To check whether the decline of the CSØ response was due simply to signal degradation over time, following the last CSØ session we recorded BLA calcium responses to unpredicted reward delivery. Rewards were capable of robustly activating the BLA (Figure 2g-i; peak; t5 = 2.93, P = 0.03; AUC; t5 = 4.07, P = 0.01). This positive control indicates that the decline of the BLA CSØ response was due to stimulus habituation, not signal degradation.”

      Reviewer #3:

      Summary:

      This work tests the hypothesis that the reciprocal connections between the BLA and lOFC are needed to encode sensory-specific reward memories, as well as retrieve this same information once it has been learned in order guide decision making. The authors first use fiber photometry to measure the activity of excitatory BLA neurons during Pavlovian conditioning of two specific cues with two specific reward outcomes and find that transient responses are evident in BLA at cue onset and each time there is a cue contingent attempt to retrieve a reward. Using this information about event encoding in BLA, the authors go on to use optogenetics to inhibit BLA activity driven by lOFC inputs to BLA following reward retrieval attempts without affecting overall conditioned approach behavior. This manipulation has the effect of disrupting encoding of sensory-specific reward memories as it impairs the animals' subsequent performance on an outcome-specific Pavlovian instrumental transfer test. Since the authors have previously demonstrated that BLA inputs to lOFC are important for retrieving sensory-specific reward memories to affect decision making in the same PIT procedure, they go on to use an innovative serial disconnection approach using chemogenetic and optogenetic tools to show that inhibiting either pathway in opposing hemispheres, simultaneously, has comparable effects on outcome-specific PIT performance as bilateral inhibition of either pathway in isolation. Overall this is a compelling demonstration that inputs from BLA to lOFC and lOFC to BLA act in a coordinated manner to facilitate appetitive decision making.

      Strengths:

      These experiments build directly on the authors' prior demonstrations that lOFC projections to BLA are important for encoding incentive value but not for the retrieval of appetitive reward associations.

      An elegant use of an outcome-specific Pavlovian instrumental transfer (PIT) procedure to demonstrate the important contributions of projections between the BLA and lOFC in encoding and retrieving stimulus-outcome reward associations.

      The use of GCaMP measurements of BLA activity to temporally constrain optogenetic inhibition of lOFC inputs to BLA following reward retrieval, allowing specific conclusion about how encoding of stimulus-outcome memories mediated by lOFC inputs to BLA.

      The authors utilize a measure of Pavlovian conditioned approach behavior to convincingly demonstrate that the effects of their optogenetic manipulations during Pavlovian conditioning on behavior during PIT is sensory specific and due to potentially confounding changes in motivation or learning.

      We appreciate this thoughtful evaluation of our manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      The conditioned approach responses appear to asymptote after two out of the eight Pavlovian conditioning sessions. Although the authors have run a control experiment in which they show that novelty contributes to the GCaMP responses measured in BLA at cue onset in early sessions, they do not clearly demonstrate learning related changes in GCaMP responses across sessions to either cue or reward retrieval. Thus, it isn't necessarily clear how quickly the sensory-specific reward memories are formed in BLA and if repeated stimulus-outcome pairings, particularly once general approach behavior reaches asymptote, actually serve to increasingly strengthen the memory.

      We agree with this limitation that our report and are actively working to address these interesting questions in our ongoing work. Indeed, a learning related-change in the BLA response can only be inferred from the present data and is not directly demonstrated. In the present experiment the nature of the memory is tested after learning, precluding understanding of the precise time course of the development of the sensory-specific stimulus-outcome memory. Future work should incorporate an online neural and/or behavioral assessment of sensory-specific reward memory encoding during learning to well address this important question.

      No explanation is provided for how the transient BLA GCaMP responses at cue onset sustain stimulus-outcome memory encoding at the time of reward. A straightforward account would be a sustained response to the cue that overlaps with the GCaMP response to reward retrieval. In addition there is no attempt to transiently inactivate the entire BLA or specific pathways at cue onset to determine how simple cue encoding affects subsequent performance in the PIT paradigm.

      This is an excellent point. We were somewhat surprised to see only a transient response to the CS onset. This suggests to us that perhaps there is a more sustained response elsewhere in the brain (or even in a different cell type in the BLA). Perhaps this sustained response follows the transient response detected here.

      We also agree that it is an important question (and limitation of the current work) of whether the BLA response to the cue is important for S-O memories. This is also a question we are addressing on in our ongoing work. We have acknowledged both this limitation/interesting question in the revised manuscript.

      • Discussion Pg. 13 ¶1: “Future work is needed to reveal the precise information content encoded by BLA neurons during reward experience that confers their function in the formation of stimulus-outcome memories, though BLA neurons will respond selectively to unique food rewards (Liu et al., 2018), which could support the generation of sensory-specific reward memories. Whether BLA cue responses are also important for encoding stimulus-outcome memories is another important question exposed by the current results.”

      The multiplexed chemogenetic and optogenetic serial disconnection approach is too coarse a manipulation to support the claim that reciprocal connections between the BLA and lOFC support encoding and retrieval of the same information. To make this claim it is necessary to use detailed functional assays of the activity in each pathway to determine what information they code during the Pavlovian conditioning and PIT procedures.

      We completely agree with this excellent point. We appreciate the reviewer pointing out how our language led to an interpretation that is not supported by the current data. Indeed, the data do not show whether the same information is transmitted between lOFCBLA and BLAlOFC and that need not be the case for these projections to function in a circuit. To remedy this, we have removed the ‘same information’ language throughout the manuscript, including in the abstract (Pg. 2), results (Pg. 9-11), discussion (Pg. 13-14), and methods (Pg. 20-21). We have brought our framing and interpretation of the disconnection results much closer to the present data. For example:

      • Results Pg. 10 ¶1: “Therefore, we next asked whether the lOFCBLA and BLAlOFC pathways form a functional stimulus-outcome memory encoding and retrieval circuit, i.e., whether the sensory-specific associative information that requires lOFCBLA projections to be encoded also requires activation of BLAlOFC projections to be used to guide decision making, or whether these are independent, parallel pathways, tapping into essential but independent streams of information.”

      • Results Pg. 11 ¶1: “…indicating that the lOFC and BLA form a bidirectional circuit for the encoding (lOFCBLA) and use (BLAlOFC) of appetitive stimulus-outcome memories.”

      • Discussion Pg. 14 ¶1: “Here, using a serial disconnection procedure, we found that during reward choice BLAlOFC projection activity mediates the use of the sensory-specific associative information that is learned via activation of lOFCBLA projections. Thus, lOFCBLAlOFC is a functional circuit for the encoding (lOFCBLA) and subsequent use (BLAlOFC) of sensory-specific reward memories to inform decision making.”

      We have also included the important caveat that future work with detailed characterization of the activity of each pathway is needed to draw conclusions on the information content conveyed by each pathway:

      • Discussion Pg. 14 ¶2: “The precise information content conveyed by each component of the lOFC-BLA circuit and how it is used in the receiving structure is a critical follow-up question that will require a cellular resolution investigation of the activity of each pathway.”
    2. Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      This manuscript aimed to dissociate two potential roles of the basolateral amygdala (BLA) in choice behavior: (1) contributing to sensory-specific stimulus-outcome memories or (2) assigning general valence to a reward-predictive cue. The authors used a well-validated Pavlovian-to-instrumental transfer (PIT) test with a series of circuit manipulations to show that lateral OFC to BLA projections are necessary for learning specific cue-outcome associations, rather than general valence, and that return BLA to lateral OFC projections are important for using that learned information in the PIT test.

      Overall, this paper addresses a question that is important to anyone studying amygdala or orbitofrontal function. The study is well-designed, the multiplexed opto-chemogenetics experiment is particularly creative, and there are convincing results with appropriate controls.

      I only have a few minor questions about the calcium signals reported in the first portion of the manuscript. First, there is a steep rise in calcium signal in panel 1f, suggesting that the signal is time-locked to the cue. However, there is a qualitatively different response to rewards in 1g. Is this just because it's more difficult to time-lock to the animal's movements than an experimentally-controlled cue? Or is it possible that there's another source in the experimental set-up that could be triggering the response. For example, does the reward delivery make an audible sound? Second, in Fig 2, is there any change in the reward response across training sessions, or is this signal also stable?

    1. I have an undergraduate degree in biology and a grad degree in entomology. I don’t know whether that makes me seem any more reliable or trustworthy to my readers or not, but there it is. I study aquatic insects, especially behavior and respiration in giant water bugs and dragonflies.

      ETHOS - The writer is mentioning her degrees and education to build credibility - she then directly addresses the idea of credibility by inserting doubt that what she just stated may not even make her "reliable or trustworthy" to her readers. I think her level of transparency and lack of care on whether she is viewed as credible or not essentially lends to her credibility in the end. It's kind of like reverse psychology, in a way, if that makes sense.

    1. The ecosystem behind React gave you too many choices of this sort, which fragmented the tech stack and caused the infamous “Javascript fatigue”.

      To me, the reason React ruined web development is because it homogenized & centralized the practice, in an abstraction that is decoupled & non-interoperable with other techniques & styles.

      The author is arguing that React didn't centralize enough, but to me, it sucked all the oxygen out of the diverse interesting place that was web development. That it didn't try to solve all problems in the stack is, if anything, a most relief. It succeeded because it didn't bundle in a data-layer. It succeeded because it didn't bundle in state. It succeeded because it didn't bundle in routing. Each of these areas have evolved independently & seen great strides across the last half decade. That's a huge win, that's why React is so strong: because it didn't try to form opinions.

      Alas React itself implies a strong opinion, has a big abstraction that de-empowers & de-inter-operates with the DOM, that keeps it from working in concert with any other technology. It has enormous diversity, but only under it's own umbrella. It has crushed a much livelier sporting aspect of web development.

      I'm so tired of weenies complaining about fragmentation. Get lost and fuck off. This medium is flexible & diverse & interesting. Stop applying your industrial software want, your software authoritarianism, "why can't everyone just do it my way/the right way" horse shit. Such a shitty attitude, from people selling FUD & clutching at the idea that everyone's gonna be happy & productive if we can just make the right framework. How uncreative & droll.

    1. Having been denied by the Enlightenment all tasks they could take seriously, they looked as though they were going to be assimilated to entertainment pure and simple, and entertainment itself looked as though it were going to be assimilated, like religion, to therapy

      I find it interesting that this is what was assumed would happen to the arts and entertainment industry. Seeing as the world of arts is so big today, it's interesting to read this passage and think about what life would be like if art was simply just "entertainment" and not history and a lifestyle.

    1. Note: This rebuttal was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. Content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Reply to the reviewers

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): Very high evidence and clarity. Excellent scientific rigor. The findings are important and reported clearly. The experiments are conducted in a rigorous way by numerous participating laboratories. Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)): Very high significance, both from a molecular biology and clinical standpoints. This is an important manuscript that challenges the findings and conclusions of a prior high-profile paper in Science by Ma et al 2016, claiming that LAG3 is a receptor for aggregation-prone species of alpha-synuclein and that deletion of LAG3 results in reduced cell to cell propagation of alpha-synuclein aggregates. The experiments in this paper are numerous and employ a variety of techniques. The overall conclusions are that LAG3 is not expressed by the relevant neurons and that LAG3 is not a receptor for alpha-synuclein fibrils (of different sizes). Therefore, the authors conclude that LAG3 is unlikely to play a role in the spread of alpha-synuclein pathology in Parkinson's disease and related disorders. There are, however, some weaknesses. For example, the Introduction contains passages that are not written in a stringent way: 1. "Histologically, PD is characterized by α-synuclein aggregates known as Lewy Bodies in neurons of the substantia nigra," That is not a good description of PD neuropathology. Lewy pathology is present in numerous areas of the CNS and PNS, and is not restricted to the substantia nigra.

      We have added a more detailed account:

      “Histologically, PD is characterized by α-synuclein inclusions known as Lewy Bodies whose accumulation is associated with neurodegeneration (Dickson, 2012; Mullin and Schapira, 2015; Corbillé et al., 2016). These inclusions affect the Substantia nigra and other mesencephalic regions as well as, in some cases, the amygdala and neocortex (Dickson, 2018).”

      1. "Growing evidence suggests that α-synuclein fibrils spread from cell to cell". While alpha-synuclein pathology can spread from cell to cell, it is not known if the fibrils are the species (alone or combined with other conformers) that cause the spreading of the pathology in a seeding fashion, or if smaller alpha-synuclein assemblies play that role.

      We have reformulated the sentence to credit the fact that we do not know which synuclein species is the one that is transmitted:

      “Growing evidence suggests that α-synuclein aggregates spread from cell to cell (Volpicelli-Daley et al., 2011; Volpicelli-Daley, Luk and Lee, 2014)… “

      1. "...by a "prionoid" process of templated conversion (Aguzzi, 2009; Aguzzi and Lakkaraju, 2016; Jucker and Walker, 2018; Kara, Marks and Aguzzi, 2018; Scheckel and Aguzzi, 2018; Uemura et al., 2020)." This sentence gives the impression that the corresponding author has led the field when it comes to alpha-synuclein's prionid properties. That is not really the case, and it would be appropriate to cite the literature in a more scholarly fashion that reflects how this part of the alpha-synuclein research field developed.

      I cannot disagree, and in fact I suspect that the present paper may be my second and possibly last experimental contribution to the synuclein field! However, I do claim intellectual parenthood of the prionoid (not “prionid”) concept, which I first expounded in a 2009 Nature paper. Anyway, we now provide a more balanced citation:

      “…by a “prionoid” process of templated conversion (Aguzzi, 2009; Jucker and Walker, 2018; Kara, Marks and Aguzzi, 2018; Henderson, Trojanowski and Lee, 2019; Karpowicz, Trojanowski and Lee, 2019; Uemura et al., 2020; Kara et al., 2021).“

      1. "Interrupting transmission of a-synuclein may slow down or abrogate the disease course." This is a bold statement and far from certain. While one might propose that this is the case, it is still just a hypothesis and the Introduction should reflect that.

      We have rewritten the sentence in a more subdued manner:

      “It is thought that interrupting transmission of a-synuclein may slow down or abrogate the disease course.”

      **Referee Cross-commenting** I concur with reviewers 2 and 3, and the new comment from reviewer 2. This paper should be published as soon as possible.

      *********************************************

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): This study conclusively shows that LAG3 is not the receptor for a-synuclein that underlies the spread of synucleinopathic damage in various PD-related conditions. The paper is done extremely carefully and comprehensively. My only suggestion is to indicate the significance level in Figure 5a, as it may turn out that LAG3 is actually protective.

      We have added the significance level in Fig. 5A, in the legend: “The survivals of ASYNA53T LAG3-/-, LAG3+/- and LAG3+/+ mice were similar (Mantel-Cox log-rank test, p-value = 0.165).”

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)): This study is of extremely high significance - we need mechanisms to deal with spectacular results in the literature that should not have been published because they are were uncompelling to begin with, but were published for various sociological/political reasons. Science won't progress if we don't find correction mechanisms for wrong conclusions. **Referee Cross-commenting** I agree with reviewers 1 and 3, especially with the suggestions made by reviewer 1, which should be instituted. I think we all concur that the paper should be published without new experiments. I believe testing a-synuclein propagation in vivo in LAG3 KO mice would be useful, but given the complete lack of replication of LAG3 expression in brain and of a-synuclein binding to LAG3, this is not necessary.

      We considered running experiments in addition to those performed in vivo in ASYNA53T transgenic mice (including LAG3 KO) and ex vivo in organotypic slices, the latter using pre-formed fibrils. However, the outcome of these experiments, along with the absence of LAG3 expression in neurons and its unclear binding, convinced us that the usage of further animals and reagents would be unwarranted.

      *****************************************

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): It was proposed that LAG3 is important in the treatment of PD and related disorders, because it functions as a receptor of pathogenic α-synuclein and the treatment with anti-LAG3 antibodies attenuated the spread of pathological α-synuclein and drastically lowered the aggregation in vitro (Mao et al, Science 2016). In this study, authors characterized 8 antibodies to LAG3 and investigated the presence of LAG3 in cultured cell lines, NSC-derived neural cultures, or organ homogenates for the presence of human or murine LAG3. But it was not detected in any of the neuronal samples tested. In addition, single cell (sc) RNAseq yielded only minimal counts for the LAG3 transcript in neurons, astrocytes, and mixed glial cells, and single-nucleus (sn) RNAseq human brain dataset for LAG3 expression across different cell types confirmed no LAG3 signals for any of 34 identified cell clusters, including 13 clusters of excitatory and 11 subtypes of inhibitory neurons, oligodendrocytes, oligodendrocyte precursor cells, microglia, astrocytes, and endothelial cells. Authors also analyzed the binding of LAG3 with α-synuclein in mouse and human model systems, and concluded that the affinity of LAG3 for α-synuclein fibrils, if any, is micromolar or less. Furthermore, authors studied the propagation of pre-formed fibrils (PFFs) of α-synuclein in neural stem cell (NSC)-derived neural cultures in the presence or absence of LAG3, and the impact of LAG3 on survival in ASYNA53T transgenic mice expressing wild-type LAG3 as well as hemizygous or homozygous deletions thereof. However, they were unable to see any significant role for LAG3 in these in vitro and in vivo models of α-synucleinopathies. In this connection, the reviewer would like to ask one question: Have you conducted any experiments of the propagation of PFFs of α-synuclein in LAG3-KO mice ? If they did, what were the results ?

      We did consider the possibility of replicating the experiments using PFFs in LAG3 KO mice. However, as stated above, we felt that our experiments – including the survival study in vivo in ASYNA53T transgenic mice – were unambiguous. After critical consideration, we remained unconvinced that this additional experiment would change the weight of our evidence in a substantial manner that would justify the inoculation of other animals and the utilisation of more resources.

      **Minor point** In Page 10, I think it's a typo: ASYYN mice must be ASYN mice.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We corrected it.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)): These negative findings about the LAG in α-synucleinopathies shown in this manuscript do not provide any new insight into the mechanisms of α-synuclein propagation. However, it is clear that LAG3 is not expressed in neuronal cells and the binding of LAG3 to α-synuclein fibrils appears limited. Overexpression of LAG3 in cultured human neural cells did not cause any worsening of α-synuclein pathology ex vivo. The overall survival of A53T α- synuclein transgenic mice was unaffected by LAG3 depletion and the seeded induction of α-synuclein lesions in hippocampal slice cultures was unaffected by LAG3 knockout. These data shown in this manuscript are convincing and the information is very important in terms of correcting the direction of disease treatment and research. **Referee Cross-commenting** I agree with reviewers 1 and 2. This paper should be published as soon as possible.

    1. And startups typically press forward even when it’s clear they won’t reach IPO scale, anticipating they’ll sell to a bigger company and deliver a decent “exit” to investors and employees.

      This seems like it just feeds the VC industry.

    1. Cris: Yeah, after I got... No, a year ago. Because I've been here a little over two years. Last year I was working over here at TeleTech and out of nowhere she calls me—and she wasn't talking to me... Three months after I got deported, after I signed everything to her and gave her all the money that I had hidden, she waited two weeks and then I call her, and I can tell in her voice she's not okay. And she's not wanting to talk to me.Cris: I went "What's wrong? Whatever you have to tell me I'm ready for it. Just let me have it, just tell me. Don't let me think about it, because that hurts me more than knowing the truth. I just want the truth.” And she starts crying, she's like "I'm sorry.” I was like "It's okay. Don't worry about it. I know what you're going to tell me.” She's like "I'm sorry, I tried to wait. I tried to wait." I was like, "Yeah, I understand. Don't worry about it.”Cris: She was like "I hope you can forgive me.” I was like, "Well, I hope you can forgive me." I was like, "You did nothing wrong. You're doing what you have to do, you're moving on. Because at the end of the day, you're on your own, you're a single mother. You can't do anything that'll make me mad.” I was like, "I support you, I guess. I love you and it hurts me to lose you to another guy, but I mean, so be it.” And then she started crying and she hung up on me.

      Deportation, Family Separation, Child Support

    2. Cris: Yeah. Once when I was back home. I was a teenager, I was 15 or 16, I can't remember. I can't do the math right now, I'm really bad at math. [Chuckles]. Well the mother of my child, when she was pregnant, she left me. She left me for somebody else because she thought the baby was from him. So I got really, really depressed and I don't know, I've just been... Everybody back home calls me cry baby. Cry baby, that's what they call me, because they know I'm really emotional.Cris: I know I look how I look, but I look like a big bad tough guy, whatever. That's what everybody tells me, "You look like a gangster, you look like you don't even get sad,” or whatever, right? But no, a lo contrario, the exact opposite. I'm very emotional, very, very emotional.Cris: So when that happened, it was around the time I was a teenager, around the same time whenever I was hanging around with the gangsters. Well, they used to hide their guns in my backyard, they used to bury them. And that's one of the reasons why my mom told me that she would want me to leave, and I would tell her "You know what, you're right. I need to leave your house.”Cris: I went and buried up, got a gun out from the ground, and sure enough it was full of bullets. Well the whole day, I was putting it to my head. Because I was really sad. It was dumb of me to do this, but I mean I learned from it. It's just weird, because the whole day I was cocking it back and trying to do it. And it wouldn't work. It just wouldn't work.Cris: And so the night time comes, and because night time is the worst time for me, because I feel like I'm all alone. Nobody's there for me. I feel like I'm nobody, I'm nothing. So I got the gun, and I put it here, and I lay down. I'm praying the whole time, I'm like "God, let me go with you. I don't want to be here no more." And then I pulled the trigger.Cris: I thought I died. I honestly thought I died, because when I woke up everything was ringing and everything was black. I thought I was blind, because I went like this, so I thought that maybe it made me go blind. I was like, "I'm alive, but I'm blind.” I was like, "No. What did I do, what did I do?" So, I started crying, and I'm going like this, then out of nowhere... This eye is busted, it's swollen. I couldn't even open. This one was not that swollen. It was swollen, but not as much as this one, and when I opened it I just see red.Cris: So I sit up, and when I sit up, I felt like somebody threw a bucket of hot water over me. Because all the blood that was around me, it followed me and was dripping on me. I was literally spraying like a fountain, because I went like this and I just seen the blood pumping out. I was like, “Okay, so I'm dying. Just calm down.” And I stayed there, and I was like "Why am I not dying?” So I go to the restroom and I open my eye, and I just see that all this is just blasted open.Cris: So my brother goes in, he takes me to hospital, long story short. The doctors told me "You don't have a bullet in you, bullet came out.” And they're like, "You have somebody watching over you, because if that bullet, if it wouldn't have bounced off you bone, it would've went into you head and you'd be dead. If not, you'd be paralyzed from this side.” Because it was going to go into this part of my brain.Lizzy: So, it bounced off?Cris: It went in here, it messed up this, this was reconstructed. It came out here. It went in my nose and came out here. It went in here, when it hit here, you can imagine the impact. So all this was just open. I don't even know how it stayed so nice, they did a really good job.Lizzy: Yeah, you wouldn't know looking at you.Cris: Yeah, and you see this scar right here? That’s where the bullet came out.Lizzy: Little bit, it's a tiny scar though.Cris: It was a 25 caliber. Yeah so it wasn't that strong of a gun, but it was enough power to go into my brain. They're like "No, it's not your time." They're like, "Because the bullet came out.” I'm like, “What?” I'm like, “Okay, so...” I was over the whole depression thing, right? After, I was like, “Okay so, I didn't die for a reason.”

      Mental Health, Depression, Family

    3. Cris: Yeah. Oh it's going on three, in September it'll be three years. But it's crazy because ever since I was little I was bullied a lot, right? Now that I got older, a lot of people used to bully me back home, but they're littler than me. I grew. I was always in military school, so I was always into discipline. When I got married I let go, I got used to being a father, so I just let go.Cris: But when I would see people that would bully me in middle school and high school—I would see them on construction sites being the cleanup guys—they'd be like "I know you bro, what's up?” And I'm like "I don't remember you.” They're like "Yeah man, we used to be friends at this school.” And then after I talked to them, I'm like, “Where do I know this guy from? This guy used to bully me. Why did he try to act like I used to know him?”Cris: That right then just shows I could sit there and get my revenge, but there's no room in my heart. Like I said, there's no room in my heart for hate, revenge, or nothing like that. But like I said... I'm sorry, I kind of got lost there.

      Bullying, Forgiveness, School, United States

    4. Well, I mean, I haven't explained it to you, but I get really bad anxiety—really, really bad. To the point where my fingers go numb and then my toes go numb, and then slowly but surely all the electricity comes. It feels like electric shocks, and they'll come up my arms and my legs, and I know that since I've been through it so many times, I know what's coming next. So I try to get out of the subway.Lizzy: Do you get panic attacks?Cris: Yeah. I sit there and I think I'm breathing right, and out of nowhere, just my vision just going like this, and I feel my lungs like this little, and I'm sitting there, [Pants] I can't breathe. Then out of nowhere I'm just like "Oh, crap,,” and I can just see myself falling and I can't do anything about it. I get paralyzed and I just fall, and I go to sleep. That happens a lot.Cris: Here, it's worse. Back in the States I didn't really deal with it that bad, but when I got here…Since I stand out so much. And back in States it would be just overthinking, like "Oh, people are probably staring at me.” No, here, it's because they're staring at me. It doesn't matter what I do. If I'm smiling, they're staring at me. If I'm in a bad mood, they're staring at me. They're always staring at me. So I just feel that pressure on me. It affects me a lot.Lizzy: It's making your anxiety a lot worse here?Cris: A lot worse. [Chuckle]. I passed out in the subway about six, seven times. I got a phone stolen from me one time when I passed out, and my wallet. [Chuckles].Lizzy: Wow.Cris: Yeah, people here are always looking to get over on you. I've dealt with that a lot here—well, just with the cops. That time was the only time that I don't know who did it, nobody seen nothing. Obviously somebody seen it, but nobody seen nothing.

      Mental Health, Anxiety, Mexico

    5. Cris: But see in a way it's a good thing, because see down here, having this, since it's Native American... See the thing here is, there's two categories of deportees, There's the Cholos, gangbangers, and there's the neutral ones that don't get into that stuff. I'm on this side. So, I look like I'm from this side, like a Cholos.Cris: People always go to "Hey, where you from?” I'm like, "I'm from Puebla, but I lived in Oklahoma." They're like, "Nah, where you from Homie?” I'm like, "I was raised I'm Oklahoma.” They're like "Quit acting stupid, Homie. Where you from?” I'm like, "What, you mean like gangs?” They're like, "Yeah, Homie, what you banging?” I'm like, "I don't gang bang, man. I'm too mature for that stuff,” and then they get mad. They get made when you tell themCris: Because I mean, I don't hate it, but I'm totally against gangbanging and all that bad stuff. Narcotrafficking, I hate that stuff. I just don't like it, because it's like you're fighting over a street corner that's not even yours—it belongs to the United States Government. A gang that has three letters and two numbers, what do you get out of it?Lizzy: Why do you think that so many migrant young guys in the US end up getting involved in gangs?Cris: Absence of a father in all honesty. Because when I was a teenager, I started hanging out with gangs just to fit in. I got out of it like a year later, because I realized it wasn't for me. But yeah, everybody that's in there is either because their dads are in prison or their dad, or they left them. And they feel comfortable around their homies to where they feel like they're their brothers and they look up to them.Cris: In all honesty, people will probably tell you something else, but they're just trying to cover the fact that it's because of the absence of a father. Or lack of attention from their mother sometimes. Like me, my mom was always too busy working. So I would get suspended from school, I walk down the block and there goes the big homies. The big homies. [Chuckle]. And they're like, "Hey man, come over here. Hang out with us.” One thing leads to another, but that's how it starts: lack of attention at home.Lizzy: Needing a role model—Cris: There you go.Lizzy: An older figure.Cris: That's what it's all about. I mean, people will say "Man, that's a stereotype.” No it's not, I lived it. I know for a fact that's what it is because everybody that I knew that was my age hanging out with them gangsters, they were there for the same thing. Their dads were in prison, locked up or dead. So I think that's the main problem right there.

      Gangs, Family, Camaraderie, Fitting in

    6. Cris: Yeah, so I mean this is my older daughter's name. An ex-girlfriend that I had in the States, she passed away.Lizzy: Sorry.Cris: That's fine. It was in 2013, so I accepted it. This one, my brother wanted to practice. This is the only one that doesn't mean anything. [Laughs]. I let my brother practice.Lizzy: It's from your brother.Cris: Yeah. I love my brother, he's awesome. This one is symbolical, because ever since she passed away, I got this one. Because it's symbolical. Ever since she passed away, it's storms, and this is supposed to be lightning. And she's crying. So it's like ever since she passed away, it's been stormy days and sad days in the city, that's why it's raining on the city. [Chuckles].Lizzy: That's beautiful.Cris: And this is actually symbolic for her as well. She was Native American, she was from the Northern Cheyenne Arapaho Tribe. There's five princesses to each, there's Northern, Eastern, Southern and Western Cheyenne Arapaho tribes. She was one of the princesses of her tribe. They picked the prettiest ones and the ones that danced the best, their indigenous dances, and she was part of that. Yeah, she was a really awesome person. So I told them to do a Native American princess on me, but he ended up doing some Anime stuff. [Both laugh]. It was an Asian guy, and he skipped town after he did this. He knew he messed up, so he skipped town.Lizzy: It still looks Native, it's like Native American Japanese, mixed.Cris: Yeah, it's cool because I just love every culture. I don't hate it, I just wish it would look more Native American.

      Tattoos, Meaning, Multi-Cultural

    7. Cris: No they don't even let me go to their... I've only went to my grandma's house three times. First time was with my dad. The last time I went, I went by myself and I rung the doorbell and they were like "Who is it?" I was like "I'm Cristian, I'm come here to see my grandma. My abuelita Marta." I was like "Who's this, is it my tia?" And they're like "Okay, just wait there, she's coming out.” And she has a walker. They made her go outside to talk to me. Yeah, that's how bad it is with them. They don't like us, I don't know why—it's because of the skin color thing, I don't know.Lizzy: You think it's because they have lighter skin, so they don't accept you?Cris: Because their roots, really. Because they have money, they have factories where they make fabrics and stuff. So they're loaded. When I first got here, I was buying stuff left and right for my cousins and stuff, so I guess they seen it as me trying to challenge them or something. I don't know. But me, I was just sharing the happiness with my family.Cris: They seen how I dress, they seen my tattoos, and they don't want no part to do with me. They don't want me talking to their children or anything like that. They don't want me to give them a bad influence, I guess—make them think "Hey look, his tattoos look cool, I want to get a tattoo.” I think that's really what it's about.Lizzy: They see you as a bad influence?Cris: Yeah, yeah.

      Family, Returning to Mexico, Discrimination, Racism, Tattoos

    8. Cris: Yeah, I do. Yeah and I love it. I never knew it until I met my family. They're from this little town called La Palma, over in Puebla. And there's deer there and everything, and there's a volcano. And I started meeting everybody, and they do the whole dance, the dance [inaudible 00:04:32], all that stuff. They dress up and they go to the big towns to make money and dance. They danced because they want to, because it's their tradition. But obviously they ran into foreigners that "Hey, can I take a picture with you?" and then the foreigners will give them a tip.Cris: After I found out I still have family here in Mexico that I didn't know, but they still actually lived like the indigenous, that was really exciting for me because I've always had this really, really deep passion for history. I just love learning history. That's my favorite topic, is history.Lizzy: That probably was really cool, connecting with that part of your family.Cris: It was, it was. Because see, they were more accepting than my other family. On my dad's side, my dad, his dad, has Arabic in him, and his mom is from Spain. Well you can imagine, they're both light-skinned, so my dad's really light-skinned. My dad is the black sheep of his side of the family. So his side of the family, they do not like us at all. They say that we're not even part—we're not even ___. They say we're not. They don't even claim that name. But I just pray for them.

      Family, Indigenous, Cultural Pride, Mexico; Returning to Mexico

    9. Cris: So, I'll just leave, stuff like that, and you can tell it's because race. Which it's okay, I pray for people like that, because they're not okay inside. That's the only thing I've dealt with there, a little bit of racism. But at the end, as I got older—because see I've been working since I was 14 so I've been in the construction field all my life—I've met a lot of people that are downright racist, but when they meet me, they're like "You know what, for a bean eating"— they start saying that—they're like, "You're all right man.” I was like, “You know what, you're all right too.” So I have a lot of friends that were racist before they got to meet actually somebody from a different race, and they're like "You're all right.”Lizzy: That's cool.Cris: "You're not as bad as I thought. You guys aren't as bad as I thought you were.” [Laughs].Lizzy: You helped change their mind a little bit?Cris: Yeah, I still talk to a lot of my GE's, a lot of the contractors. And like I said, I don't blame them. They were raised around it. Most people are products of their environment, so that's how I see it. I don't judge them on how they act, because sometimes that's how they were raised. So it's like, I'm really patient with people.

      Racism, Discrimination, Friends, United States

    10. Cris: They seen how I dress, they seen my tattoos, and they don't want no part to do with me. They don't want me talking to their children or anything like that. They don't want me to give them a bad influence, I guess—make them think "Hey look, his tattoos look cool, I want to get a tattoo.” I think that's really what it's about.Lizzy: They see you as a bad influence?Cris: Yeah, yeah.Lizzy: Just based on how you look?Cris: Yeah. And that's normal. Well, back in the States it's not like that. No, not at all. Because back in the States everybody has tattoos. I know nurses and lawyers that have tattoos. It's nothing.Lizzy: The tattoos. You think people judge them more here, than in the States?Cris: Oh yeah. Especially mine, because they see mine and they're like "Oh, he has numbers on him. He's from a gang.” No, that's the area code to Oklahoma, look it up man. [Laughs].Lizzy: Which one, the 405?Cris: Yeah, 1405. I added the one because—Lizzy: One for the US?Cris: Yeah. There you go, you know. [Laughs]. Yeah, and then this is the Oklahoma flag.

      Oklahoma; tattoos, meaning; Return to Mexico; challenges, discrimination/stigmatization

    11. So his side of the family, they do not like us at all. They say that we're not even part—we're not even ___. They say we're not. They don't even claim that name. But I just pray for them.Lizzy: So, you don't talk to them?Cris: No they don't even let me go to their... I've only went to my grandma's house three times. First time was with my dad. The last time I went, I went by myself and I rung the doorbell and they were like "Who is it?" I was like "I'm Cristian, I'm come here to see my grandma. My abuelita Marta." I was like "Who's this, is it my tia?" And they're like "Okay, just wait there, she's coming out.” And she has a walker. They made her go outside to talk to me. Yeah, that's how bad it is with them. They don't like us, I don't know why—it's because of the skin color thing, I don't know.Lizzy: You think it's because they have lighter skin, so they don't accept you?Cris: Because their roots, really. Because they have money, they have factories where they make fabrics and stuff. So they're loaded. When I first got here, I was buying stuff left and right for my cousins and stuff, so I guess they seen it as me trying to challenge them or something. I don't know. But me, I was just sharing the happiness with my family.

      Return to Mexico; challenges, discrimination/stigmatization; family relationships, those who stayed in Mexico

    12. Lizzy: Do you have indigenous roots?Cris: Not Native American, but from here, yes.Lizzy: From here, yes.Cris: Yeah, I do. Yeah and I love it. I never knew it until I met my family. They're from this little town called La Palma, over in Puebla. And there's deer there and everything, and there's a volcano. And I started meeting everybody, and they do the whole dance, the dance [inaudible 00:04:32], all that stuff. They dress up and they go to the big towns to make money and dance. They danced because they want to, because it's their tradition. But obviously they ran into foreigners that "Hey, can I take a picture with you?" and then the foreigners will give them a tip.Cris: After I found out I still have family here in Mexico that I didn't know, but they still actually lived like the indigenous, that was really exciting for me because I've always had this really, really deep passion for history. I just love learning history. That's my favorite topic, is history.Lizzy: That probably was really cool, connecting with that part of your family.

      Return to Mexico; Family relationships, those who stayed in Mexico

    13. The only thing I don't like about Oklahoma, is the outskirt towns where they're not too accepting of outsiders—racism. It's like everywhere, racism even exists here in Mexico. I've learned that so far. But that's the only thing I don't like about it. But I mean I'm really patient with people, so even when people would act rude with me, I would always talk to them nicely. Tell them, “Sorry to bother you, I'll go ahead and go back where I came from.”Lizzy: What kind of rude things would people say to you, or racist things?Cris: I've always had tattoos, so they would think twice about offending me. They would just give me these looks. Say I'd go pump gas, "Oh, we don't got no gas right now.” I just seen a guy pumping gas. "I said we don't have gas right now.” “All right, sorry to bother you man. I'm heading out.”Cris: So, I'll just leave, stuff like that, and you can tell it's because race. Which it's okay, I pray for people like that, because they're not okay inside. That's the only thing I've dealt with there, a little bit of racism. But at the end, as I got older—because see I've been working since I was 14 so I've been in the construction field all my life—I've met a lot of people that are downright racist, but when they meet me, they're like "You know what, for a bean eating"— they start saying that—they're like, "You're all right man.” I was like, “You know what, you're all right too.” So I have a lot of friends that were racist before they got to meet actually somebody from a different race, and they're like "You're all right.”

      Time in the US; Discrimination/stigmatization

    1. And over here, when I started school, it was a little bit different. People do look at you different, everybody wants to ask you questions about over there, ask you how to say stuff. I'm not bothered by it, but it does get kind of annoying at some point. Everybody at all times, for every single thing. It's just like, everybody, at all times, for every single thing, and like people here go to school and they have English homework, I don't mind doing that, but then when we go somewhere and they're hanging out and every other thing, they're like, "Hey, what is that? Or how you say this or how do you do that or how do you say that or what does that mean or what does this..." It's like all right, I can't really do what I want to do because I got to go over here and translate everything else or tell you how to say all this other stuff just because. I don't mind, but it's like to a certain extent, at some point, I do want to think about doing my career for English. Pretty much being a teacher.

      School, United States; Jobs, Opportunity; Language, English