10,000 Matching Annotations
  1. Nov 2025
    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors analyse electron microscopy data of the nociceptive circuit in fly larvae at two developmental stages. They look for ways in which the connectivity of the circuit differs between these two stages, when neurons grow by a factor of about 5. They find that average synaptic weights do not change significantly, and that the density of synaptic inputs onto a dendrite is also unchanged despite the extreme change in size. Further, they find that synaptic weights become less variable and that synapses between pairs of neurons do not become more correlated over development. The second of these findings is evidence against many known long-term synaptic plasticity mechanisms having a significant effect on this circuit.<br /> They combine their first result with theoretical modelling to show that invariances in weight and density preserve neuronal responses despite scaling, and conclude that this is the mechanism by which the circuit can maintain useful function throughout development.

      Strengths:

      The paper carefully analyses a rich dataset of electron microscopy data and clearly highlights how the data support the authors' findings and not obvious alternative hypotheses. The overall finding, that this particular circuit can maintain stable responses using a local conservation of synaptic inputs, is quite striking.

      Weaknesses:

      The main weakness of this paper is in its argument that such a mechanism of input conservation might be a general developmental rule. The vast majority of literature on spine density in mammals finds that spine density increases early in development before falling again (Bourgeois & Rakic, J Neurosci 1993; Petanjek at el, PNAS 2011; Wildenberg et al, Nat Comms 2023). I find the analyses in this manuscript convincing, but the authors should more clearly highlight that this mechanism might be specific to insect nociceptive circuits. A further minor weakness is the fact that only staging data is available, where different individuals are imaged at different developmental stages. This is unavoidable and acknowledged in the manuscript, but it makes it harder to draw clear conclusions about plasticity mechanisms and specific changes in synaptic weight distributions.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors utilize large volume electron microscopy ("connectomics") data to address how circuits remain stable during development. They focus on the development of the Drosophila nociceptive circuit between larval stages L1 and L3. Their analyses focus on changes to pre- and post-synaptic circuit partners (i.e., pre-synaptic axons and post-synaptic dendrites) and conduct a thorough analysis of eliminating likely changes to both that could balance circuits. Ultimately, they find that the change in axonal growth (i.e, cable length) is mismatched with dendritic growth, but that this is balanced by an increase in the synapse density of pre-synaptic axons.

      Strengths:

      The authors used connectomics, the gold standard for neural circuit tracing, to conduct their analyses, and thus their results are strongly supported by the quality of the data. They carefully eliminated several models for how pre- and post-synaptic changes could co-develop to preserve circuit stability until they identified a major driver in changes in the timing of axon development relative to dendritic development. I also admired their willingness to be transparent about the limitations of their studies, including a lack of analyses of changes to inhibitory inputs and a lack of dynamics in their data. Overall, it's difficult to argue their results are wrong, but they may be incomplete. That said, it's difficult to account for every variable, and they covered the more salient topics, and it's my opinion that this is an important contribution that moves the field forward while also being careful to note its limitations that could and should motivate future work.

      Weaknesses:

      I identified a few weaknesses that could benefit from revisions:

      (1) I found parts of the text confusing, verging on misleading, specifically as it relates to other species. For example, in Line 93, the authors state that they have shown that synapses per unit dendrite length remain remarkably constant across species and brain regions. This was mentioned throughout the manuscript, and it wasn't clear to me whether this was referring to across development or in adults. If over-development, this contrasts with other recently published work of our own comparing synapse densities in the developing mouse and rhesus macaque. Whether they are different or the same is equally interesting and should be discussed more clearly. Related to this, it's not clear that mammalian circuits over development remain stable. For example, our work shows that the ratio of excitatory and inhibitory synapses changes quite a lot in developing mice and primates.

      (2) I was not convinced by the use of axon-dendritic cable overlap. While axons and dendrites certainly need to be close together to make a synapse, I don't understand why this predicts they will connect. In connectomic data, axons pass by hundreds if not thousands of potential post-synaptic partners without making a synapse. Ultimately, the authors' data on changes in axon cable length between L1 and L3 would predict more overlap, but I found the use of overlap confusing and unnecessary, relative to the concreteness of their other analyses. I would suggest removing this from their analyses or providing a stronger argument for how overlap predicts connectivity.

      (3) Figure 7. For non-computational neuroscientists, I think it would be tremendously helpful to include a table that outlines the metrics you used. The text states you constrained these models with your EM data, but it would be helpful to summarize the range of numerical data you used for each parameter.

      (4) The most important finding to me was the asymmetry between axon and dendrite development. Perhaps beyond the scope of this work, it raises the question of whether there are privileged axons that uniquely increase their synapse density. Figure 5D alludes to this, where the fold change in cable length is not proportional to the change in synapse density. Could it be that over development, specific inputs become dominant while others prune their synapses, resulting in an overall balanced circuit, but dominance of specific partners changes? Either answer (i.e., yes, there are privileged circuits that emerge from L1 to L3, or no) would be very interesting and greatly elevate the significance of this work.

      (5) Related to my comment #1, can the authors comment on whether these changes are unique to Drosophila nociceptive circuits? Do all circuits remain balanced over development in flies? Finally, could you clarify why L1 to L3 was chosen?

    3. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Fritz et al. investigate the changes in synaptic connectivity between two different life stages of the Drosophila larva, L1 and L3. They focus on 3 types of nociceptive mechanosensory neurons and their connecting 6 downstream interneurons. Connectomic analysis reveals that connectivity and dendritic density are stable across development; however, axonal density, axodendritic overlap, and the number of synapses increase. Finally, using a modeling approach, they demonstrate that this conservation of most features enables stable output across life stages.

      Strengths:

      The authors analyse two different connectomes from fly larvae in two different life stages. By now, there are only very few such samples available; thus, this is a novel approach and will be helpful to guide further comparative connectomic studies in the future.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors analyze only a minimal circuit with 9 different cell types on each hemisphere; thus, their findings might be specialised for this specific nociceptive sensory to interneuron peripheral circuit. Also, more animals might need to be analyzed in different life stages to generalize these findings.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study provides a valuable contribution to understanding how negative affect influences food-choice decision making in bulimia nervosa, using a mechanistic approach with a drift diffusion model (DDM) to examine the weighting of tastiness and healthiness attributes. The solid evidence is supported by a robust crossover design and rigorous statistical methods, although concerns about the interpretation of group differences across neutral and negative conditions limit the interpretability of the results.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Using a computational modeling approach based on the Drift and Diffusion Model (DDM) introduced by Ratcliff and McKoon in 2008, the article by Shevlin and colleagues investigates whether there are differences between neutral and negative emotional states in:

      (1) The timings of the integration in food choices of the perceived healthiness and tastiness of food options in individuals with bulimia nervosa (BN) and healthy participants (2) The weighting of the perceived healthiness and tastiness of these options.

      Strengths:

      By looking at the mechanistic part of the decision process, the approach has potential to improve the understanding of pathological food choices.

      Weaknesses:

      I thank the author for reviewing their manuscript.

      However, I still have major concerns.

      The authors say that they removed any causal claims in their revised version of the manuscript. The sentence before the last one of the abstract still says "bias for high-fat foods predicted more frequent subjective binge episodes over three months". This is a causal claim that I already highlighted in my previous review, specifically for that sentence (see my second sentence of my major point 2 of my previous review).

      I also noticed that a comment that I added was not sent to the authors. In this comment I was highlighting that in Figure 2 of Galibri et al., I was uncertain about a difference between neutral and negative inductions of the average negative rating after the induction in the BN group (i.e. comparing the negative rating after negative induction in BN to the negative rating after neutral induction in BN). Figure 2 of Galibri et al. looks to me that:

      (1) The BN participants were more negative before the induction when they came to the neutral session than when they came to the negative session. (2) The BN participants looked almost negatively similar (taking into account the error bars reported) after the induction in both sessions

      These observations are of high importance because they may support the fact that BN patients were likely in a similar negative state to run the food decision task in both conditions (negative and neutral). Therefore, the lack of difference in food choices in BN patients is unsurprising and nothing could be concluded from the DDM analyses. Moreover, the strong negative ratings of BN patients in the neutral condition as compared to healthy participants together with almost similar negative ratings after the two inductions contradict the authors' last sentence of their abstract.

      I appreciate that the authors reproduced an analysis of their initial paper regarding the negative ratings (i.e. Table S1). It partly answers my aforementioned point but does not address the fact that BN may have been in a similar negative state in both conditions (neutral and negative) when running the food decision task: if BN patients were similarly negative after both induction (neutral and negative), nothing can be concluded from their differences in their results obtained from the DDM. As the authors put it, "not all loss-of-control eating occurs in the context of negative state", I add that far from all negative states lead to a loss-of-control eating in BN patients. This grounds all my aforementioned remarks and my remarks of my first review.

      A solution for that is to run a paired t-test in BN patients only comparing the score after the induction in the two conditions (neutral and negative) reported in Figure 2 of their initial article.

      I appreciate the analysis that the authors added with the restrictive subscale of the EDE-Q. That this analysis does not show any association with the parameters of interest does not show that there is a difference in the link between self reported restrictions and self reported binges. Only such a difference would allow us to claim that the results the authors report may be related to binges.

      I appreciate the wording of the answer of the authors to my third point: "the results suggest that individuals whose task behavior is more reactive to negative affect tend to be the most symptomatic, but the results do not allow us to determine whether this reactivity causes the symptoms". This sentence is crystal clear and sums very well the limits of the associations the authors report with binge eating frequency. However, I do not see this sentence in the manuscript. I think the manuscript would benefit substantially from adding it.

      Statistical analyses:

      If I understood well the mixed models performed, analyses of supplementary tables S1 and S27 to S32 are considering all measures as independent which means that the considered score of each condition (neutral vs negative) and each time (before vs after induction) which have been rated by the same participants are independent. Such type of analyses does not take into account the potential correlation between the 4 scores of a given participant. As a consequence, results may lead to false positives that a linear mixed model does not address. The appropriate analysis would be to run adapted statistical tests pairing the data without running any mixed model.

      Notes:

      It is not because specific methods like correlating self reported measures over long periods with almost instantaneous behaviors (like tasks) have been used extensively in studies that these methods are adapted to answer a given scientific question. Measures aggregated over long periods miss the variations in instantaneous behaviors over these periods.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Binge eating is often preceded by heightened negative affect, but the specific processes underlying this link are not well-understood. The purpose of this manuscript was to examine whether affect state (neutral or negative mood) impacts food choice decision-making processes that may increase the likelihood of binge eating in individuals with bulimia nervosa (BN). The researchers used a randomized crossover design in women with BN (n=25) and controls (n=21), in which participants underwent a negative or neutral mood induction prior to completing a food-choice task. The researchers found that despite no differences in food choices in the negative and neutral conditions, women with BN demonstrated a stronger bias toward considering the 'tastiness' before the 'healthiness' of the food after the negative mood induction.

      Strengths:

      The topic is important and clinically relevant, and the methods are sound. The use of computational modeling to understand nuances in decision-making processes and how that might relate to eating disorder symptom severity is a strength of the study.

      Weaknesses:

      Sample size was relatively small, and participants were all women with BN, which limits generalizability of findings to the larger population of individuals who engage in binge eating. It is likely that the negative affect manipulation was weak and may not have been potent enough to change behavior. These limitations are adequately noted in the discussion.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The study uses the food choice task, a well-established method in eating disorder research, particularly in anorexia nervosa. However, it introduces a novel analytical approach-the diffusion decision model-to deconstruct food choices and assess the influence of negative affect on how and when tastiness and healthiness are considered in decision-making among individuals with bulimia nervosa and healthy controls.

      Strengths:

      The introduction provides a comprehensive review of the literature, and the study design appears robust. It incorporates separate sessions for neutral and negative affect conditions and counterbalances tastiness and healthiness ratings. The statistical methods are rigorous, employing multiple testing corrections.

      A key finding-that negative affect induction biases individuals with bulimia nervosa toward prioritizing tastiness over healthiness-offers an intriguing perspective on how negative affect may drive binge eating behaviors.

      Weaknesses:

      A notable limitation is the absence of a sample size calculation, which, combined with the relatively small sample, may have contributed to null findings. Additionally, while the affect induction method is validated, it is less effective than alternatives such as image or film-based stimuli (Dana et al., 2020), potentially influencing the results.

    5. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      eLife Assessment

      This study provides a valuable contribution to understanding how negative affect influences food-choice decision making in bulimia nervosa, using a mechanistic approach with a drift diffusion model (DDM) to examine the weighting of tastiness and healthiness attributes. The solid evidence is supported by a robust crossover design and rigorous statistical methods, although concerns about low trial counts, possible overfitting, and the absence of temporally aligned binge-eating measures limit the strength of causal claims. Addressing modeling transparency, sample size limitations, and the specificity of mood induction effects, would enhance the study's impact and generalizability to broader populations.

      We thank the Editor and Reviewers for their summary of the strengths of our study, and for their thoughtful review and feedback on our manuscript. We apologize for the confusion in how we described the multiple steps performed to ensure that the hierarchical model reported in the main text was the best fit for the data but was not overfitted. Regarding “model transparency,” as described in our response to Reviewer 1 below, we have now more clearly explained (with references) that the use of hierarchical estimation procedures allows for information sharing across participants, which improves the reliability and stability of parameter estimates—even when the number of trials per individual is small. We have clarified for the less familiar reader how our Bayesian model selection criterion penalizes models with more parameters (e.g., more complex models).

      Details about model diagnostics, recoverability, and posterior predictive checks are all provided in the Supplementary Materials. We have clarified how these steps ensure that the parameters we estimate are identifiable and interpretable, while confirming that the model can reproduce key patterns in the data, ultimately supporting the validity of the winning model. Additionally, we have provided all scripts for estimating the models by linking to our public Github repository. Furthermore, we have edited language throughout to eliminate any implication of causal claims and acknowledged the limitation of the small sample size. Given these efforts, we are concerned that the current wording about “modeling transparency” in the public eLife Assessment may inadvertently misrepresent the modeling practices in our paper. Would it be possible to revise or remove that particular phrase to better reflect the steps we have taken? We believe this would help avoid confusion for readers.

      We have also taken additional steps to ensure that we have used “appropriate and validated methodology in line with current state-of-the-art," and we have added references to recent papers supporting our approaches.

      All changes in the revised text are marked in blue.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Using a computational modeling approach based on the drift diffusion model (DDM) introduced by Ratcliff and McKoon in 2008, the article by Shevlin and colleagues investigates whether there are differences between neutral and negative emotional states in:

      (1) The timings of the integration in food choices of the perceived healthiness and tastiness of food options between individuals with bulimia nervosa (BN) and healthy participants.

      (2) The weighting of the perceived healthiness and tastiness of these options.

      Strengths:

      By looking at the mechanistic part of the decision process, the approach has the potential to improve the understanding of pathological food choices. The article is based on secondary research data.

      Weaknesses:

      I have two major concerns and a major improvement point.

      The major concerns deal with the reliability of the results of the DDM (first two sections of the Results, pages 6 and 7), which are central to the manuscript, and the consistency of the results with regards to the identification of mechanisms related to binge eating in BN patients (i.e. last section of the results, page 7).

      (1) Ratcliff and McKoon in 2008 used tasks involving around 1000 trials per participant. The Chen et al. experiment the authors refer to involves around 400 trials per participant. On the other hand, Shevlin and colleagues ask each participant to make two sets of 42 choices with two times fewer participants than in the Chen et al. experiment. Shevlin and colleagues also fit a DDM with additional parameters (e.g. a drift rate that varies according to subjective rating of the options) as compared to the initial version of Ratcliff and McKoon. With regards to the number of parameters estimated in the DDM within each group of participants and each emotional condition, the 5- to 10-fold ratio in the number of trials between the Shevlin and colleagues' experiment and the experiments they refer to (Ratcliff and McKoon, 2008; Chen et al. 2022) raises serious concerns about a potential overfitting of the data by the DDM. This point is not highlighted in the Discussion. Robustness and sensitivity analyses are critical in this case.

      We thank the Reviewer for their thoughtful critique. We agree that a limited number of trials can impede reliable estimation, which we acknowledge in the Discussion section. However, we used a hierarchical estimation approach which leverages group information to constrain individual-level estimates. This use of group-level parameters to inform individual-level estimates reduces overfitting and noise that can arise when trial counts are low, and the regularization inherent in hierarchical fitting prevents extreme parameter estimates that could arise from noisy or limited data (Rouder & Lu, 2005). As a result, hierarchical estimation has been repeatedly shown to work well in settings with low trial counts, including as few as 40 trials per condition (Lerche et al., 2017; Ratcliff & Childers, 2015; Wiecki et al., 2013). In addition, previous applications of the time-varying DDM to food choice task data has included experiments with as few as 60 trials per condition (Maier et al., 2020). We have added references to these more recent approaches and specifically note their advantages for the modeling of tasks with fewer trials. Finally, our successful parameter recovery described in the Supplementary Materials supports the robustness of the estimation procedure and the reliability of our results.

      The authors compare different DDMs to show that the DDM they used to report statistical results in the main text is the best according to the WAIC criterion. This may be viewed as a robustness analysis. However, the other DDM models (i.e. M0, M1, M2 in the supplementary materials) they used to make the comparison have fewer parameters to estimate than the one they used in the main text. Fits are usually expected to follow the rule that the more there are parameters to estimate in a model, the better it fits the data. Additionally, a quick plot of the data in supplementary table S12 (i.e. WAIC as a function of the number of parameters varying by food type in the model - i.e. 0 for M0, 2 for M1, 1 for M2 and 3 for M3) suggests that models M1 and potentially M2 may be also suitable: there is a break in the improvement of WAIC between model M0 and the three other models. I would thus suggest checking how the results reported in the main text differ when using models M1 and M2 instead of M3 (for the taste and health weights when comparing M3 with M1, for τS when comparing M3 with M2). If the differences are important, the results currently reported in the main text are not very reliable.

      We thank the Reviewer for highlighting that it would be helpful to explicitly note that we specifically selected WAIC as one of two methods to assess model fit because it penalizes for model complexity. We now explicitly state that, in addition to being more robust than other metrics like AIC or BIC when comparing hierarchical Bayesian models like those in the current study, model fit metrics like WAIC penalize for model complexity based on the number of parameters (Watanabe, 2010). Therefore, more complex models (i.e., those with more parameters) do not automatically have lower WAIC. Additionally, we now more clearly note that our second method to assess model fit, posterior predictive checks, demonstrate that only model M3 can reproduce key behavioral patterns present in the empirical data. As described in the Supplementary Materials, M1 and M2 miss key patterns in the data. In summary, we used best practices to assess model fit and reliability (Wilson & Collins, 2019): results from the WAIC comparison (which penalizes models with more parameters) and results from posterior predictive checks align in showing that M3 provided the best fit to our data. We have added a sentence to the manuscript to state this explicitly.

      (2) The second main concern deals with the association reported between the DDM parameters and binge eating episodes (i.e. last paragraph of the results section, page 7). The authors claim that the DDM parameters "predict" binge eating episodes (in the Abstract among other places) while the binge eating frequency does not seem to have been collected prospectively. Besides this methodological issue, the interpretation of this association is exaggerated: during the task, BN patients did not make binge-related food choices in the negative emotional state. Therefore, it is impossible to draw clear conclusions about binge eating, as other explanations seem equally plausible. For example, the results the authors report with the DDM may be a marker of a strategy of the patients to cope with food tastiness in order to make restrictive-like food choices. A comparison of the authors' results with restrictive AN patients would be of interest. Moreover, correlating results of a nearly instantaneous behavior (i.e. a couple of minutes to perform the task with the 42 food choices) with an observation made over several months (i.e. binge eating frequency collected over three months) is questionable: the negative emotional state of patients varies across the day without systematically leading patients to engage in a binge eating episode in such states.

      I would suggest in such an experiment to collect the binge craving elicited by each food and the overall binge craving of patients immediately before and after the task. Correlating the DDM results with these ratings would provide more compelling results. Without these data, I would suggest removing the last paragraph of the Results.

      We thank the Reviewer for these interesting and important suggestions, and we agree that claims about causal connections between our decision parameters and symptom severity metrics would be inappropriate. Per the Reviewer’s suggestions, we have eliminated the use of the word “predict” to describe the tested association with symptom metrics. We also agree that more time-locked associations with craving ratings and near-instantaneous behavior would be useful, and we have added this as an important direction for future research in the discussion. However, associating task-based behavior with validated self-report measures that assess symptom severity over long periods of time that precede the task visit (e.g., over the past 2 weeks in depression, over the past month in eating disorders) is common practice in computational psychiatry, psychiatric neuroimaging, and clinical cognitive neuroscience (Hauser et al., 2022; Huys et al., 2021; Wise et al., 2023), and this approach has been used several times specifically with food choice tasks (Dalton et al., 2020; Steinglass et al., 2015). We have revised the language throughout the manuscript to clarify: the results suggest that individuals whose task behavior is more reactive to negative affect tend to be the most symptomatic, but the results do not allow us to determine whether this reactivity causes the symptoms.

      In response to this Reviewer’s important point about negative affect not always producing loss-of-control eating in individuals with BN, we now explicitly note that while several studies employing ecological momentary assessments (EMA) have repeatedly shown that increases in negative affect significantly increase the likelihood of subsequent loss-of-control eating (Alpers & Tuschen-Caffier, 2001; Berg et al., 2013; Haedt-Matt & Keel, 2011; Hilbert & Tuschen-Caffier, 2007; Smyth et al., 2007), not all loss-of-control eating occurs in the context of negative affect. We further note that future studies should integrate food choice task data pre and post-affect inductions with measures capturing the specific frequency of loss of control eating episodes that occur during states of high negative affect.

      (3) My major improvement point is to tone down as much as possible any claim of a link with binge eating across the entire manuscript and to focus more on the restrictive behavior of BN patients in between binge eating episodes (see my second major concern about the methods). Additionally, since this article is a secondary research paper and since some of the authors have already used the task with AN patients, if possible I would run the same analyses with AN patients to test whether there are differences between AN (provided they were of the restrictive subtype) and BN.

      We appreciate the Reviewer’s very helpful suggestions. We have adjusted our language linking loss-of-control eating frequency with decision parameters, and we have added sentences focusing on the implications for the restrictive behavior of patients with BN between binge eating episodes. In the Supplementary Materials, we have added an analysis of the restraint subscale of the EDE-Q and confirmed no relationship with parameters of interest. While we agree additional analyses with AN patients would be of interest, this is outside the scope of the paper. Our team have collected data from individuals with AN using this task, but not with any affect induction or measure of affect. Therefore, we have added this important direction for future research to the discussion.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Binge eating is often preceded by heightened negative affect, but the specific processes underlying this link are not well understood. The purpose of this manuscript was to examine whether affect state (neutral or negative mood) impacts food choice decision-making processes that may increase the likelihood of binge eating in individuals with bulimia nervosa (BN). The researchers used a randomized crossover design in women with BN (n=25) and controls (n=21), in which participants underwent a negative or neutral mood induction prior to completing a food-choice task. The researchers found that despite no differences in food choices in the negative and neutral conditions, women with BN demonstrated a stronger bias toward considering the 'tastiness' before the 'healthiness' of the food after the negative mood induction.

      Strengths:

      The topic is important and clinically relevant and methods are sound. The use of computational modeling to understand nuances in decision-making processes and how that might relate to eating disorder symptom severity is a strength of the study.

      Weaknesses:

      The sample size was relatively small and may have been underpowered to find differences in outcomes (i.e., food choice behaviors). Participants were all women with BN, which limits the generalizability of findings to the larger population of individuals who engage in binge eating. It is likely that the negative affect manipulation was weak and may not have been potent enough to change behavior. Moreover, it is unclear how long the negative affect persisted during the actual task. It is possible that any increases in negative affect would have dissipated by the time participants were engaged in the decision-making task.

      We thank the Reviewer for their comments on the strengths of the paper, and for highlighting these important considerations regarding the sample demographics and the negative affect induction. As in the original paper that focused only on ultimate food choice behaviors, we now specifically acknowledge that the study was only powered to detect small to medium group differences in the effect of negative emotion on these final choice behaviors.

      Regarding the sample demographics, we agree that the study’s inclusion of only female participants is a limitation. Although the original decision for this sampling strategy was informed by data suggesting that bulimia nervosa is roughly six times more prevalent among females than males (Udo & Grilo, 2018), we now note in the discussion that our female-only sample limits the generalizability of the findings.

      We also agree with the Reviewer’s noted limitations of the negative mood induction, and based on the reviewer’s suggestions, we have expanded our original description of these limitations in the Discussion. Specifically, we now note that although the task was completed immediately after the affect induction, the study did not include intermittent mood assessments throughout the choice task, so it is unclear how long the negative affect persisted during the actual task.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The study uses the food choice task, a well-established method in eating disorder research, particularly in anorexia nervosa. However, it introduces a novel analytical approach - the diffusion decision model - to deconstruct food choices and assess the influence of negative affect on how and when tastiness and healthiness are considered in decision-making among individuals with bulimia nervosa and healthy controls.

      Strengths:

      The introduction provides a comprehensive review of the literature, and the study design appears robust. It incorporates separate sessions for neutral and negative affect conditions and counterbalances tastiness and healthiness ratings. The statistical methods are rigorous, employing multiple testing corrections.

      A key finding - that negative affect induction biases individuals with bulimia nervosa toward prioritizing tastiness over healthiness - offers an intriguing perspective on how negative affect may drive binge eating behaviors.

      Weaknesses:

      A notable limitation is the absence of a sample size calculation, which, combined with the relatively small sample, may have contributed to null findings. Additionally, while the affect induction method is validated, it is less effective than alternatives such as image or film-based stimuli (Dana et al., 2020), potentially influencing the results.

      We agree that the limited sample size and specific affect induction method may have contributed to the null model-agnostic behavioral findings. Based on this Reviewer’s and Reviewer 2’s comments, we have added these factors to our acknowledgements of limitations in the discussion.

      Another concern is the lack of clarity regarding which specific negative emotions were elicited. This is crucial, as research suggests that certain emotions, such as guilt, are more strongly linked to binge eating than others. Furthermore, recent studies indicate that negative affect can lead to both restriction and binge eating, depending on factors like negative urgency and craving (Leenaerts et al., 2023; Wonderlich et al., 2024). The study does not address this, though it could explain why, despite the observed bias toward tastiness, negative affect did not significantly impact food choices.

      We thank the Reviewer for raising these important points and possibilities. In the Supplementary Materials, we have added an additional analysis of the specific POMS subscales that comprise the total negative affect calculation that was reported in the original paper (Gianini et al., 2019). We also report total negative affect scores from the POMS in the main text. Ultimately, we found that, across both groups, the negative affect induction increased responses related to anger, confusion, depression, and tension while reducing vigor.

      We agree with the Reviewer that factors like negative urgency and cravings are relevant here. The study did not collect any measures of craving, and in response to Reviewer 1 and this Reviewer, we now note in the discussion that replication studies including momentary craving assessments will be important. While we do not have any measurements of cravings, we did measure negative urgency. The original paper (Gianini et al., 2019) did not find that negative urgency was related to restrictive food choices. We have now repeated those analyses, and we also were unable to find any meaningful patterns related to negative urgency. Nonetheless, we have added an analysis of negative urgency scores and decision parameters to the Supplementary Materials.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Please improve the description of the computational methods: the fit of the DDM, the difference between the models used in the DDM, and the difference between the DDM model and the models used in the linear mixed models (the word "model" is at the end confusing as it may refer either to the DDM or to the statistical analysis of the DDM parameters).

      We thank the Reviewer for highlighting the unclear language. We have updated the main text to clarify when the term “model” refers to the DDM itself versus the regression models assessing DDM parameters. As described above, we have clarified that both tests of model fit (WAIC and posterior predictive checks) suggest that Model 3 was the best fit to the data. We have also clarified the differences between the tested models in the Supplementary Materials.

      Please avoid reporting estimates of main effects in statistical models when an interaction is included: the estimates of the main effects may be heavily biased by the interaction term (this can be checked by re-running the model without the interaction term).

      We sincerely appreciate the Reviewer’s comment regarding the interpretation of main effects in the presence of significant interaction terms. In the revised manuscript, we no longer discuss significant main effects and instead focus on interpreting the interaction terms.

      Additionally, to help unpack interaction effects, we now include exploratory simple effects analyses in the supplementary materials. Simple effects analyses allow us to examine the effects of one independent variable at specific values of other independent variables (Aiken et al., 1991; Brambor et al., 2006; Jaccard & Turrisi, 2003; Winer et al., 1991).

      Supplementary tables S5 and S6 are excessive: there is no third-level interaction (supplementary tables S3 and S4) to justify a split between BN and healthy participants. Please perform rather a descending regression. Accordingly, the results reported in the second paragraph of page 7 should be entirely rewritten.

      We agree with the Reviewer’s suggestion that these tables are unnecessary. We have updated them to include details about simple effects analyses described above. We have revised the main text to reflect these changes.

      The words such as "predictive" indicating a causality link is used in several places in the manuscript including the supplementary materials while the experimental design does not allow such claims. This should be rephrased.

      We agree with the Reviewer that the term “predicted” in the main text improperly suggested a causal relationship between symptom severity and DDM parameters that our methods cannot evaluate. We have updated the main text with more appropriate language. However, our use of the term “predicted” in the Supplementary Materials refers to predicting the probability of a choice based on trial-level features which is standard use of the term in the computational cognitive modeling literature (Piray et al., 2019; Wilson & Collins, 2019; Zhang et al., 2020).

      The word "evaluated" appears twice in line 42 of the supplementary materials. Same with "in" at line 50.

      Thank you very much for highlighting this. We have removed the repeated words.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) I think it would be helpful if the authors noted in the Methods how long the food-choice task took. Prior research has suggested that in-lab mood inductions are very short-lasting (e.g., max 7 minutes) and it is likely that the task itself may have impacted the mood states of participants. Expanding on this in the Discussion/limitations seems important.

      The Reviewer raises an important point regarding the duration of our affect manipulation. Since we did not measure mood during or after the Food Choice Task, we cannot determine how long these effects persisted. We have added this limitation to the discussion section, noting that the absence of continuous affect measures following mood induction is a widespread limitation in the field.

      (2) Personally, I was a bit confused about what data the researchers were using to extrapolate information on whether or not participants were considering healthiness or tastiness. How was this operationalized? Is this an assumption being made based on how quickly someone chose a low-fat vs. high-fat food?

      We thank this Reviewer for highlighting that our models’ complexity warrants a more thorough explanation.

      Since we collected tastiness and healthiness attribute ratings during the first phase of the Food Choice Task, we can use those values to determine how these attribute values influence decision-making. Independently, foods were classified as low-fat or high-fat based on their objective properties (i.e., the percentage of calories from fat). However, the primary information we used to compute model parameters were participants’ attribute ratings, choices, and response times.

      In these models, the drift rate parameter captures the speed and direction of evidence accumulation. As the unsigned magnitude of the drift rate increases, the decision-maker is making up their mind more quickly. Once the evidence accumulates to a response boundary, the option associated with that boundary is selected. A positive drift rate means they are moving toward choosing one option (i.e., upper boundary), and a negative drift rate means they are moving toward choosing the other (i.e., lower boundary). In these decisions, decision-makers often consider multiple attributes, such as perceived healthiness and tastiness. Each of these attributes can influence the evidence accumulation process with different strengths, or weights.

      In addition, decision-makers do not consider all attributes at the same time. Inspired by earlier work on multi-attribute decision-making (Maier et al., 2020; Sullivan & Huettel, 2021), our modeling approach computes a parameter (i.e., relative attribute onset) which captures the time delay between when each attribute starts influencing the evidence accumulation process. This parameter gives us a way to estimate when decision-makers are considering different attributes, and tells us how much influence each attribute has, because if the attribute starts late, it has less time to influence the decision. These models use a piecewise drift rate function to describe how evidence changes over time within a trial: sometimes the decision maker only considers taste, sometimes only health, and other times both. Importantly, models with a relative attribute onset parameter can produce key behavioral patterns observed in mouse-tracking studies that models without this parameter are unable to replicate (Maier et al., 2020).

      In summary, the computational model describes decision-makers’ behaviors (what they would choose, and how fast they would choose) using different potential values of the drift weights and relative start time parameters. We then used Bayesian estimation methods to compare the model's predictions to the actual data. By examining how reaction times and choices change depending on the attribute values of the presented options, the model allows us to infer when each attribute is considered, and how strongly it influences the final choice.

      We have clarified this in the main text.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I wonder whether there were any measures concerning negative affect before and after the mood induction? This would make it clearer whether there was a significant change before and after. If different emotions were assessed, which emotion showed the strongest change?

      We thank the Reviewer for flagging this point. We realize that the main text did not make it clear that mood was assessed before and after the mood induction using the POMS (McNair et al., 1989). While these analyses were conducted and the results were reported in the original manuscript (Gianini et al., 2019), we now report them in the main text for completeness. Additionally, we added more details about how specific emotions changed by analyzing the subscales of the POMS in the Supplementary Materials. As mentioned above, we found that, across both groups, the negative affect induction increased responses related to anger, confusion, depression, and tension while reducing vigor.

      Thank you again for your consideration and for the reviewers’ comments and suggestions. We believe their incorporation has significantly strengthened the paper. In addition, thank you for the opportunity to publish our work in eLife. We look forward to hearing your response.

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    1. eLife Assessment

      This study provides an important advance in credibility-based learning research by demonstrating how feedback reliability can shape reward learning biases within a carefully controlled bandit task. The strength of the main findings, namely greater learning from credible feedback and robust computational modeling supported by strong parameter recovery and cross-fitting analyses, is compelling. The integration of reinforcement learning and Bayesian benchmark models is methodologically rigorous and well-executed, yielding reliable and interpretable results. The revised manuscript shows clear improvements in theoretical framing and transparency regarding limitations. While additional work is warranted to confirm the role of disinformation in amplifying positivity bias and to explore symptom-related variability or richer Bayesian comparators, this paper represents a high-quality and impactful contribution to the study of learning under uncertainty and misinformation.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This is a well-designed and very interesting study examining the impact of imprecise feedback on outcomes on decision-making. I think this is an important addition to the literature and the results here, which provide a computational account of several decision-making biases, are insightful and interesting.

      I do not believe I have substantive concerns related to the actual results presented; my concerns are more related to the framing of some of the work. My main concern is regarding the assertion that the results prove that non-normative and non-Bayesian learning is taking place. I agree with the authors that their results demonstrate that people will make decisions in ways that demonstrate deviations from what would be optimal for maximizing reward in their task under a strict application of Bayes rule. I also agree that they have built reinforcement learning models which do a good job of accounting for the observed behavior. However, the Bayesian models included are rather simple- per the author descriptions, applications of Bayes' rule with either fixed or learned credibility for the feedback agents. In contrast, several versions of the RL models are used, each modified to account for different possible biases. However more complex Bayes-based models exist, notably active inference but even the hierarchical gaussian filter. These formalisms are able to accommodate more complex behavior, such as affect and habits, which might make them more competitive with RL models. I think it is entirely fair to say that these results demonstrate deviations from an idealized and strict Bayesian context; however, the equivalence here of Bayesian and normative is I think misleading or at least requires better justification/explanation. This is because a great deal of work has been done to show that Bayes optimal models can generate behavior or other outcomes that are clearly not optimal to an observer within a given context (consider hallucinations for example) but which make sense in the context of how the model is constructed as well as the priors and desired states the model is given.

      As such, I would recommend that the language be adjusted to carefully define what is meant by normative and Bayesian and to recognize that work that is clearly Bayesian could potentially still be competitive with RL models if implemented to model this task. An even better approach would be to directly use one of these more complex modelling approaches, such as active inference, as the comparator to the RL models, though I would understand if the authors would want this to be a subject for future work.

      Abstract:

      The abstract is lacking in some detail about the experiments done, but this may be a limitation of the required word count? If word count is not an issue, I would recommend adding details of the experiments done and the results. One comment is that there is an appeal to normative learning patterns, but this suggests that learning patterns have a fixed optimal nature, which may not be true in cases where the purpose of the learning (e.g. to confirm the feeling of safety of being in an in-group) may not be about learning accurately to maximize reward. This can be accommodated in a Bayesian framework by modelling priors and desired outcomes. As such the central premise that biased learning is inherently non-normative or non-Bayesian I think would require more justification. This is true in the introduction as well.

      Introduction:

      As noted above the conceptualization of Bayesian learning being equivalent to normative learning I think requires either further justification. Bayesian belief updating can be biased an non-optimal from an observer perspective, while being optimal within the agent doing the updating if the priors/desired outcomes are set up to advantage these "non-optimal" modes of decision making.

      Results:

      I wonder why the agent was presented before the choice - since the agent is only relevant to the feedback after the choice is made. I wonder if that might have induced any false association between the agent identity and the choice itself. This is by no means a critical point but would be interesting to get the authors' thoughts.

      The finding that positive feedback increases learning is one that has been shown before and depends on valence, as the authors note. They expanded their reinforcement learning model to include valence; but they did not modify the Bayesian model in a similar manner. This lack of a valence or recency effect might also explain the failure of the Bayesian models in the preceding section where the contrast effect is discussed. It is not unreasonable to imagine that if humans do employ Bayesian reasoning that this reasoning system has had parameters tuned based on the real world, where recency of information does matter; affect has also been shown to be incorporable into Bayesian information processing (see the work by Hesp on affective charge and the large body of work by Ryan Smith). It may be that the Bayesian models chosen here require further complexity to capture the situation, just like some of the biases required updates to the RL models. This complexity, rather than being arbitrary, may be well justified by decision-making in the real world.

      The methods mention several symptom scales- it would be interesting to have the results of these and any interesting correlations noted. It is possible that some of individual variability here could be related to these symptoms, which could introduce precision parameter changes in a Bayesian context and things like reward sensitivity changes in an RL context.

      Discussion:

      (For discussion, not a specific comment on this paper): One wonders also about participant beliefs about the experiment or the intent of the experimenters. I have often had participants tell me they were trying to "figure out" a task or find patterns even when this was not part of the experiment. This is not specific to this paper, but it may be relevant in the future to try and model participant beliefs about the experiment especially in the context of disinformation, when they might be primed to try and "figure things out".

      As a general comment, in the active inference literature, there has been discussion of state-dependent actions, or "habits", which are learned in order to help agents more rapidly make decisions, based on previous learning. It is also possible that what is being observed is that these habits are at play, and that they represent the cognitive biases. This is likely especially true given, as the authors note, the high cognitive load of the task. It is true that this would mean that full-force Bayesian inference is not being used in each trial, or in each experience an agent might have in the world, but this is likely adaptive on the longer timescale of things, considering resource requirements. I think in this case you could argue that we have a departure from "normative" learning, but that is not necessarily a departure from any possible Bayesian framework, since these biases could potentially be modified by the agent or eschewed in favor of more expensive full-on Bayesian learning when warranted. Indeed in their discussion on the strategy of amplifying credible news sources to drown out low-credibility sources, the authors hint to the possibility of longer term strategies that may produce optimal outcomes in some contexts, but which were not necessarily appropriate to this task. As such, the performance on this task- and the consideration of true departure from Bayesian processing- should be considered in this wider context. Another thing to consider is that Bayesian inference is occurring, but that priors present going in produce the biases, or these biases arise from another source, for example factoring in epistemic value over rewards when the actual reward is not large. This again would be covered under an active inference approach, depending on how the priors are tuned. Indeed, given the benefit of social cohesion in an evolutionary perspective, some of these "biases" may be the result of adaptation. For example, it might be better to amplify people's good qualities and minimize their bad qualities in order to make it easier to interact with them; this entails a cost (in this case, not adequately learning from feedback and potentially losing out sometimes), but may fulfill a greater imperative (improved cooperation on things that matter). Given the right priors/desired states, this could still be a Bayes-optimal inference at a social level and as such may be ingrained as a habit which requires effort to break at the individual level during a task such as this.

      The authors note that this task does not relate to "emotional engagement" or "deep, identity-related, issues". While I agree that this is likely mostly true, it is also possible that just being told one is being lied to might elicit an emotional response that could bias responses, even if this is a weak response.

      Comments on first revisions:

      In their updated version the authors have made some edits to address my concerns regarding the framing of the 'normative' Bayesian model, clarifying that they utilized a simple Bayesian model which is intended to adhere in an idealized manner to the intended task structure, though further simulations would have been ideal.

      The authors, however, did not take my recommendation to explore the symptoms in the symptom scales they collected as being a potential source of variability. They note that these were for hypothesis generation and were exploratory, fair enough, but this study is not small and there should have been sufficient sample size for a very reasonable analysis looking at symptom scores.

      However, overall the toned-down claims and clarifications of intent are adequate responses to my previous review.

      Comments on second revisions:

      While I believe an exploration of symptom scores would have been a valuable addition, this is not required for the purpose of the paper, and as such, I have no further comments.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This important paper studies the problem of learning from feedback given by sources of varying credibility. The convincing combination of experiment and computational modeling helps to pin down properties of learning, while opening unresolved questions for future research.

      Summary:

      This paper studies the problem of learning from feedback given by sources of varying credibility. Two bandit-style experiments are conducted in which feedback is provided with uncertainty, but from known sources. Bayesian benchmarks are provided to assess normative facets of learning, and alternative credit assignment models are fit for comparison. Some aspects of normativity appear, in addition to possible deviations such as asymmetric updating from positive and negative outcomes.

      Strengths:

      The paper tackles an important topic, with a relatively clean cognitive perspective. The construction of the experiment enables the use of computational modeling. This helps to pinpoint quantitatively the properties of learning and formally evaluate their impact and importance. The analyses are generally sensible, and advanced parameter recovery analyses (including cross-fitting procedure) provide confidence in the model estimation and comparison. The authors have very thoroughly revised the paper in response to previous comments.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors acknowledge the potential for cognitive load and the interleaved task structure to play a meaningful role in the results, though leave this for future work. This is entirely reasonable, but remains a limitation in our ability to generalize the results. Broadly, some of the results obtained in cases where the extent of generalization is not always addressed and remains uncertain.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary

      This paper investigates how disinformation affects reward learning processes in the context of a two-armed bandit task, where feedback is provided by agents with varying reliability (with lying probability explicitly instructed). They find that people learn more from credible sources, but also deviate systematically from optimal Bayesian learning: They learned from uninformative random feedback and updated too quickly from fully credible feedback (especially following low-credibility feedback). People also appeared to learn more from positive feedback and there is tentative evidence that this bias is exacerbated for less credible feedback.

      Overall, this study highlights how misinformation could distort basic reward learning processes, without appeal to higher order social constructs like identity.

      Strengths - The experimental design is simple and well-controlled; in particular, it isolates basic learning processes by abstracting away from social context - Modeling and statistics meet or exceed standards of rigor - Limitations are acknowledged where appropriate, especially those regarding external validity and challenges in dissociating positivity bias from perseveration - The comparison model, Bayes with biased credibility estimates, is strong; deviations are much more compelling than e.g. a purely optimal model - The conclusions are of substantial interest from both a theoretical and applied perspective

      Weaknesses

      The authors have done a great job addressing my concerns with the two previous submission. The one issue that they were not able to truly address is the challenge of dissociating positivity bias from perseveration; this challenge weakens evidence for the conclusion that less credible feedback yields a stronger positivity bias. However, the authors have clearly acknowledged this limitation and tempered their conclusions accordingly. Furthermore, the supplementary analyses on this point are suggestive (if not fully conclusive) and do a better job of at least trying to address the confound than most work on positivity/confirmation bias.

      I include my previous review describing the challenge in more detail for reference. I encourage interested readers to see the author response as well. It has convinced me that this weakness is not a reflection of the work, but is instead a fundamental challenge for research on positivity bias.

      Absolute or relative positivity bias?

      The conclusion of greater positivity bias for lower credible feedback (Fig 5) hinges on the specific way in which positivity bias is defined. Specifically, we only see the effect when normalizing the difference in sensitivity to positive vs. negative feedback by the sum. I appreciate that the authors present both and add the caveat whenever they mention the conclusion. However, without an argument that the relative definition is more appropriate, the fact of the matter is that the evidence is equivocal.

      There is also a good reason to think that the absolute definition is more appropriate. As expected, participants learn more from credible feedback. Thus, normalizing by average learning (as in the relative definition) amounts to dividing the absolute difference by increasingly large numbers for more credible feedback. If there is a fixed absolute positivity bias (or something that looks like it), the relative bias will necessarily be lower for more credible feedback. In fact, the authors own results demonstrate this phenomenon (see below). A reduction in relative bias thus provides weak evidence for the claim.

      It is interesting that the discovery study shows evidence of a drop in absolute bias. However, for me, this just raises questions. Why is there a difference? Was one just a fluke? If so, which one?

      Positivity bias or perseveration?

      Positivity bias and perseveration will both predict a stronger relationship between positive (vs. negative) feedback and future choice. They can thus be confused for each other when inferred from choice data. This potentially calls into question all the results on positivity bias.

      The authors clearly identify this concern in the text and go to considerable lengths to rule it out. However, the new results (in revision 1) show that a perseveration-only model can in fact account for the qualitative pattern in the human data (the CA parameters). This contradicts the current conclusion:

      Critically, however, these analyses also confirmed that perseveration cannot account for our main finding of increased positivity bias, relative to the overall extent of CA, for low-credibility feedback.

      Figure 24c shows that the credibility-CA model does in fact show stronger positivity bias for less credible feedback. The model distribution for credibility 1 is visibly lower than for credibilities 0.5 and 0.75.

      The authors need to be clear that it is the magnitude of the effect that the perseveration-only model cannot account for. Furthermore, they should additionally clarify that this is true only for models fit to data; it is possible that the credibility-CA model could capture the full size of the effect with different parameters (which could fit best if the model was implemented slightly differently).

      The authors could make the new analyses somewhat stronger by using parameters optimized to capture just the pattern in CA parameters (for example by MSE). This would show that the models are in principle incapable of capturing the effect. However, this would be a marginal improvement because the conclusion would still rest on a quantitative difference that depends on specific modeling assumptions.

      New simulations clearly demonstrate the confound in relative bias

      Figure 24 also speaks to the relative vs. absolute question. The model without positivity bias shows a slightly stronger absolute "positivity bias" for the most credible feedback, but a weaker relative bias. This is exactly in line with the logic laid out above. In standard bandit tasks, perseveration can be quite well-captured by a fixed absolute positivity bias, which is roughly what we see in the simulations (I'm not sure what to make of the slight increase; perhaps a useful lead for the authors). However, when we divide by average credit assignment, we now see a reduction. This clearly demonstrates that a reduction in relative bias can emerge without any true differences in positivity bias.

      Given everything above, I think it is unlikely that the present data can provide even "solid" evidence for the claim that positivity bias is greater with less credible feedback. This confound could be quickly ruled out, however, by a study in which feedback is sometimes provided in the absence of a choice. This would empirically isolate positivity bias from choice-related effects, including perseveration.

      Comments on revisions:

      Great work on this. The new paper is very interesting as well. I'm delighted to see that the excessive amount of time I spent on this review has had a concrete impact.

    5. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      eLife Assessment

      This study provides an important extension of credibility-based learning research with a well-controlled paradigm by showing how feedback reliability can distort reward-learning biases in a disinformation-like bandit task. The strength of evidence is convincing for the core effects reported (greater learning from credible feedback; robust computational accounts, parameter recovery) but incomplete for the specific claims about heightened positivity bias at low credibility, which depend on a single dataset, metric choices (absolute vs relative), and potential perseveration or cueing confounds. Limitations concerning external validity and task-induced cognitive load, and the use of relatively simple Bayesian comparators, suggest that incorporating richer active-inference/HGF benchmarks and designs that dissociate positivity bias from choice history would further strengthen this paper.

      We thank the editors and reviewers for a careful assessment.

      In response, we have toned down our claims regarding heightened positivity biases, explicitly stating that the findings are equivocal and depend on the scale (i.e., metric) and study (whereas previously we stated our hypothesis was supported). We have also clarified which aspects of the findings extend beyond perseveration. We believe the evidence now presented provides convincing support for this more nuanced claim.

      We wish to emphasize that dissociating positivity bias from perseveration is a challenge not just for our work, but for the entire field of behavioral reinforcement learning. In fact, in a recent preprint (Learning asymmetry or perseveration? A critical re-evaluation and solution to a pervasive confound, Vidal-Perez et al., 2025; https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/xdse5_v1) we argue that, to date, all studies claiming evidence for positivity bias beyond perseveration suffered flaws, and that there are currently no robust, behavioral, model-agnostic signatures that dissociate effects of positivity bias from perseveration. While this remains a limitation, we would stress that, relative to the state of the art in the field, our work goes beyond what has previously been reported. We believe this should also be reflected in the assessment of our work.

      We elaborate more on these issues in our responses to R3 below.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Comments on revisions:

      In their updated version the authors have made some edits to address my concerns regarding the framing of the 'normative' bayesian model, clarifying that they utilized a simple bayesian model which is intended to adhere in an idealized manner to the intended task structure, though further simulations would have been ideal.

      The authors, however, did not take my recommendation to explore the symptoms in the symptom scales they collected as being a potential source of variability. They note that these were for hypothesis generation and were exploratory, fair enough, but this study is not small and there should have been sufficient sample size for a very reasonable analysis looking at symptom scores.

      However, overall the toned down claims and clarifications of intent are adequate responses to my previous review.

      We thank the reviewer. We remain convinced that targeted hypotheses tested using betterpowered designs is the most effective way to examine how our findings relate to symptom scales, something we hope to pursue in future studies.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This important paper studies the problem of learning from feedback given by sources of varying credibility. The convincing combination of experiment and computational modeling helps to pin down properties of learning, while opening unresolved questions for future research.

      Summary:

      This paper studies the problem of learning from feedback given by sources of varying credibility. Two bandit-style experiments are conducted in which feedback is provided with uncertainty, but from known sources. Bayesian benchmarks are provided to assess normative facets of learning, and alternative credit assignment models are fit for comparison. Some aspects of normativity appear, in addition to possible deviations such as asymmetric updating from positive and negative outcomes.

      Strengths:

      The paper tackles an important topic, with a relatively clean cognitive perspective. The construction of the experiment enables the use of computational modeling. This helps to pinpoint quantitatively the properties of learning and formally evaluate their impact and importance. The analyses are generally sensible, and advanced parameter recovery analyses (including cross-fitting procedure) provide confidence in the model estimation and comparison. The authors have very thoroughly revised the paper in response to previous comments.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors acknowledge the potential for cognitive load and the interleaved task structure to play a meaningful role in the results, though leave this for future work. This is entirely reasonable, but remains a limitation in our ability to generalize the results. Broadly, some of the results obtain in cases where the extent of generalization is not always addressed and remains uncertain.

      We thank the reviewer once more for a thoughtful assessment of our work.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary

      This paper investigates how disinformation affects reward learning processes in the context of a twoarmed bandit task, where feedback is provided by agents with varying reliability (with lying probability explicitly instructed). They find that people learn more from credible sources, but also deviate systematically from optimal Bayesian learning: They learned from uninformative random feedback, learned more from positive feedback, and updated too quickly from fully credible feedback (especially following low-credibility feedback). Overall, this study highlights how misinformation could distort basic reward learning processes, without appeal to higher order social constructs like identity.

      Strengths

      • The experimental design is simple and well-controlled; in particular, it isolates basic learning processes by abstracting away from social context

      • Modeling and statistics meet or exceed standards of rigor

      • Limitations are acknowledged where appropriate, especially those regarding external validity - The comparison model, Bayes with biased credibility estimates, is strong; deviations are much more compelling than e.g. a purely optimal model

      • The conclusions are of substantial interest from both a theoretical and applied perspective

      Weaknesses

      The authors have addressed most of my concerns with the initial submission. However, in my view, evidence for the conclusion that less credible feedback yields a stronger positivity bias remains weak. This is due to two issues.

      Absolute or relative positivity bias?

      The conclusion of greater positivity bias for lower credible feedback (Fig 5) hinges on the specific way in which positivity bias is defined. Specifically, we only see the effect when normalizing the difference in sensitivity to positive vs. negative feedback by the sum. I appreciate that the authors present both and add the caveat whenever they mention the conclusion. However, without an argument that the relative definition is more appropriate, the fact of the matter is that the evidence is equivocal.

      We thank the reviewer for an insightful engagement with our manuscript. The reviewer’s comments on the subtle interplay between perseveration and learning asymmetries were so thought-provoking that they have inspired a new article that delves deeply into how gradual choice-perseveration can lead to spurious conclusions about learning asymmetries in Reinforcement Learning (Learning asymmetry or perseveration? A critical re-evaluation and solution to a pervasive confound, Vidal-Perez et al., 2025; https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/xdse5_v1).

      To the point- we agree with the reviewer the evidence for this hypothesis is equivocal, and we took on board the suggestion to tone down our interpretation of the findings. We now state explicitly, both in the results section (“Positivity bias in learning and credibility”) and in the Discussion, that the results provide equivocal support for our hypothesis:

      RESULTS

      “However, we found evidence for agent-based modulation of positivity bias when this bias was measured in relative terms. Here we calculated, for each participant and agent, a relative Valence Bias Index (rVBI) as the difference between the Credit Assignment for positive feedback (CA+) and negative feedback (CA-), relative to the overall magnitude of CA (i.e., |CA+| + |CA-|) (Fig. 5c). Using a mixed effects model, we regressed rVBIs on their associated credibility (see Methods), revealing a relative positivity bias for all credibility levels [overall rVBI (b=0.32, F(1,609)=68.16), 50% credibility (b=0.39, t(609)=8.00), 75% credibility (b=0.41, F(1,609)=73.48) and 100% credibility (b=0.17, F(1,609)=12.62), all p’s<0.001]. Critically, the rVBI varied depending on the credibility of feedback (F(2,609)=14.83, p<0.001), such that the rVBI for the 3-star agent was lower than that for both the 1-star (b=-0.22, t(609)=-4.41, p<0.001) and 2-start agent (b=-0.24, F(1,609)=24.74, p<0.001). Feedback with 50% and 75% credibility yielded similar rVBI values (b=0.028, t(609)=0.56,p=0.57). Finally, a positivity bias could not stem from a Bayesian strategy as both Bayesian models predicted a negativity bias (Fig. 5b-c; Fig. S8; and SI 3.1.1.3 Table S11-S12, 3.2.1.1, and 3.2.1.2). Taken together, this provides equivocal support for our initial hypothesis, depending on the measurement scale used to assess the effect (absolute or relative).”

      “Previous research has suggested that positivity bias may spuriously arise from pure choice-perseveration (i.e., a tendency to repeat previous choices regardless of outcome) (49–51). While our models included a perseveration-component, this control may not be perfect. Therefore, in additional control analyses, we generated (using ex-post simulations based on best fitting parameters) synthetic datasets using models including choice-perseveration but devoid of feedback-valence bias, and fitted them with our credibilityvalence model (see SI 3.6.1). These analyses confirmed that a pure perseveration account can masquerade as an apparent positivity bias and even predict the qualitative pattern of results related to credibility (i.e., a higher relative positivity bias for low-credibility feedback). Critically, however, this account consistently predicted a reduced magnitude of credibility-effect on relative positivity bias as compared to the one we observed in participants, suggesting some of the relative amplification of positivity bias goes above and beyond a contribution from perseveration.”

      DISCUSSION

      “Previous reinforcement learning studies, report greater credit-assignment based on positive compared to negative feedback, albeit only in the context of veridical feedback (43,44,63). Here, we investigated whether a positivity bias is amplified for information of low credibility, but our findings are equivocal and vary as a function of scaling (absolute or relative) and study. We observe selective absolute amplification of a positivity bias for information of low and intermediate credibility in the discovery study alone. In contrast, we find a relative (to the overall extent of CA) amplification of confirmation bias in both studies. Importantly, the magnitude of these amplification effects cannot be reproduced in ex-post simulations of a model incorporating simple choice perseveration without an explicit positivity bias, suggesting that at least part of the amplification reflects a genuine increase in positivity bias.”

      There is also a good reason to think that the absolute definition is more appropriate. As expected, participants learn more from credible feedback. Thus, normalizing by average learning (as in the relative definition) amounts to dividing the absolute difference by increasingly large numbers for more credible feedback. If there is a fixed absolute positivity bias (or something that looks like it), the relative bias will necessarily be lower for more credible feedback. In fact, the authors own results demonstrate this phenomenon (see below). A reduction in relative bias thus provides weak evidence for the claim.

      We agree with the reviewer that absolute and relative measures can yield conflicting impressions. To some extent, this is precisely why we report both (i.e., if the two would necessarily agree, reporting both would be redundant). However, we are unconvinced that one measure is inherently more appropriate than the other. In our view, both are valid as long as they are interpreted carefully and in the right context. To illustrate, consider salary changes, which can be expressed on either an absolute or a relative scale. If Bob’s £100 salary increases to £120 and Alice’s £1000 salary increases to £1050, then Bob’s raise is absolutely smaller but relatively larger. Is one measure more appropriate than the other? Economists would argue not; rather, the choice of scale depends on the question at hand.

      In the same spirit, we have aimed to be as clear and transparent as possible in stating that 1) in the main study, there is no effect in the absolute sense, and 2) framing positivity bias in relative terms is akin to expressing it as a percentage change.

      It is interesting that the discovery study shows evidence of a drop in absolute bias. However, for me, this just raises questions. Why is there a difference? Was one a just a fluke? If so, which one?

      We are unsure why we didn’t find absolute amplification effect within the main studies. However, we don’t think the results from the preliminary study were just a ‘fluke’. We have recently conducted two new studies (in preparation for publication), where we have been able to replicate the finding of increased positivity bias for lower-credibility sources in both absolute and relative terms. We agree current results leave unresolved questions and we hope to follow up on these in the near future.

      Positivity bias or perseveration?

      Positivity bias and perseveration will both predict a stronger relationship between positive (vs. negative) feedback and future choice. They can thus be confused for each other when inferred from choice data. This potentially calls into question all the results on positivity bias.

      The authors clearly identify this concern in the text and go to considerable lengths to rule it out. However, the new results (in revision 1) show that a perseveration-only model can in fact account for the qualitative pattern in the human data (the CA parameters). This contradicts the current conclusion:

      Critically, however, these analyses also confirmed that perseveration cannot account for our main finding of increased positivity bias, relative to the overall extent of CA, for low-credibility feedback.

      Figure 24c shows that the credibility-CA model does in fact show stronger positivity bias for less credible feedback. The model distribution for credibility 1 is visibly lower than for credibilities 0.5 and 0.75.

      The authors need to be clear that it is the magnitude of the effect that the perseveration-only model cannot account for. Furthermore, they should additionally clarify that this is true only for models fit to data; it is possible that the credibility-CA model could capture the full size of the effect with different parameters (which could fit best if the model was implemented slightly differently).

      The authors could make the new analyses somewhat stronger by using parameters optimized to capture just the pattern in CA parameters (for example by MSE). This would show that the models are in principle incapable of capturing the effect. However, this would be a marginal improvement because the conclusion would still rest on a quantitative difference that depends on specific modeling assumptions.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important point. We agree our original wording could have been more carefully formulated and are grateful for this opportunity to refine this. The reviewer is correct that a model with only perseveration can qualitatively reproduce the pattern of increased relative positivity bias for less credible feedback in the main study (but not in the discovery study), and our previous text did not acknowledge this. As stated in the previous section, we have revised the manuscript (in the Results, Discussion, and SI) to ensure we address this in full. Our revised text now makes it explicit that while a pure perseveration account predicts the qualitative pattern, it does not predict the magnitude of the effects we observe in our data.

      RESULTS

      “Previous research has suggested that positivity bias may spuriously arise from pure choice-perseveration (i.e., a tendency to repeat previous choices regardless of outcome) (49–51). While our models included a perseveration-component, we acknowledge this control is not perfect. Therefore, in additional control analyses, we generated (using ex-post simulations based on best fitting parameters) synthetic datasets using models including choice-perseveration, but devoid of feedback-valence bias, and fitted these with our credibility-valence model (see SI 3.6.1). These analyses confirmed that a pure perseveration account can masquerade as an apparent positivity bias, and even predict the qualitative pattern of results related to credibility (i.e., a higher relative positivity bias for low-credibility feedback). Critically, however, this account consistently predicted a reduced magnitude of credibility-effect on relative positivity bias as compared to the one we observed in participants, suggesting at least some of the relative amplification of positivity bias goes above and beyond contributions from perseveration.”

      DISCUSSION

      “Previous reinforcement learning studies, report greater credit-assignment based on positive compared to negative feedback, albeit only in the context of veridical feedback (43,44,63). Here, we investigated whether a positivity bias is amplified for information of low credibility, but our findings on this matter were equivocal and varied as a function of scaling (absolute or relative) and study. We observe selective absolute amplification of the positivity bias for information of low and intermediate credibility in the discovery study only. In contrast, we find a relative (to the overall extent of CA) amplification of confirmation bias in both studies. Importantly, the magnitude of these amplification effects cannot be reproduced in ex-post simulations of a model incorporating simple choice perseveration without an explicit positivity bias, suggesting that at least part of the amplification reflects a genuine increase in positivity bias.”

      SI (3.6.1)

      “Interestingly, a pure perseveration account predicted an amplification of the relative positivity bias under low (compared to full) credibility (with the two rightmost histograms in Fig. S24d falling in the positive range). However, the magnitude of this effect was significantly smaller than the empirical effect (as the bulk of these same histograms lies below the green points). Moreover, this account predicted a negative amplification (i.e., attenuation) of an absolute positivity bias, which was again significantly smaller than the empirical effect (see corresponding histograms in S24b). This pattern raises an intriguing possibility that perseveration may, at least partially, mask a true amplification of absolute positivity bias.”

      Furthermore, our revisions make it now explicit that these analyses are based on ex-post simulations using the model best-fitting parameters. We do not argue that this pattern can’t be captured by other parameters crafted specifically to capture this pattern. However, we believe that the ex-post fitting is the best practice to check whether a model can produce an effect of interest (see for example The Importance of Falsification in Computational Cognitive Modeling, Palminteri et al., 2017; https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364661317300542?via%3Dihub). Based on this we agree with the reviewer the benefit from the suggested additional analyses is minimal.

      New simulations clearly demonstrate the confound in relative bias

      Figure 24 also speaks to the relative vs. absolute question. The model without positivity bias shows a slightly stronger absolute "positivity bias" for the most credible feedback, but a weaker relative bias. This is exactly in line with the logic laid out above. In standard bandit tasks, perseveration can be quite well-captured by a fixed absolute positivity bias, which is roughly what we see in the simulations (I'm not sure what to make of the slight increase; perhaps a useful lead for the authors). However, when we divide by average credit assignment, we now see a reduction. This clearly demonstrates that a reduction in relative bias can emerge without any true differences in positivity bias.

      This relates back to the earlier point about scaling. However, we wish to clarify that this is not a confound in the usual sense i.e., an external variable that varies systematically with the independent variable (credibility) and influences the dependent variable (positivity bias), thereby undermining causal inference. Rather, we consider it is a scaling issue: measuring absolute versus relative changes in the same variable can yield conflicting impressions.

      Given everything above, I think it is unlikely that the present data can provide even "solid" evidence for the claim that positivity bias is greater with less credible feedback. This confound could be quickly ruled out, however, by a study in which feedback is sometimes provided in the absence of a choice. This would empirically isolate positivity bias from choice-related effects, including perseveration.

      We trust our responses make clear we have tempered our claims and stated explicitly where a conclusion is equivocal. We believe we have convincing evidence for a nuanced claim regarding how credibility affects positivity bias.

      We are grateful for the reviewer’s suggestion of a study design to empirically isolate positivity bias from choice-related effects. We have considered this carefully, but do not believe the issue is as straightforward as suggested. As we understand it, the suggestion assumes that positivity bias should persist when people process feedback in the absence of choice (where perseverative tendencies would not be elicited). While this is possible, there is existing work that indicates otherwise. In particular, Chambon et al. (2020, Nature Human Behavior) compared learning following free versus forced choices and found that learning asymmetries, including a positivity bias, were selectively evident in free-choice trials but not in forced-choice trials. This implies that a positivity bias is intricately tied to the act of choosing, rather than a general learning artifact that emerges independently of choice context. This is further supported by arguments that the positivity bias in reinforcement learning is better understood as a form of confirmation bias, whereby feedback confirming a choice is weighted more heavily (Palminteri et al., 2017, Plos Comp. Bio.). In other words, it is unclear whether one should expect positivity/confirmation bias to emerge when feedback is provided in the absence of choice.

      That said, we agree fully with a need to have task designs that better dissociate positivity bias from perseveration. We now acknowledge in our Discussion that such designs can benefit future studies on this topic:

      Future studies could also benefit from using designs that are better suited for dissociating learning asymmetries from gradual perseveration (51).

      We hope to be able to pursue this direction in the future.

      Recommendations for the Authors:

      I greatly appreciate the care with which you responded to my comments. I'm sorry that I can't improve my overall evaluation, given the seriousness of the concerns in the public review (which the new results have unfortunately bolstered more than assuaged). If it were me, I would definitely collect more data because both issues could very likely be strongly addressed with slight modifications of the current task.

      Alternatively, you could just dramatically de-emphasize the claim that positivity bias is higher for less credible feedback. I will be sad because it was my favorite result, but you have many other strong results, and I would still label the paper "important" without this one.

      We thank the reviewer for an exceptionally thorough and insightful engagement with our manuscript. Your meticulous attention to detail, and sharp conceptual critiques, have been invaluable, and our paper is immeasurably stronger and more rigorous as a direct result of this input. Indeed, the referee’s comments inspired us to prepare a new article that delves deeply into the confound of dissociating between gradual choice-perseveration and learning asymmetries in RL (Learning asymmetry or perseveration? A critical re-evaluation and solution to a pervasive confound, Vidal-Perez et al., 2025; https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/xdse5_v1).

      Specifically, in this new paper we address the point that dissociating positivity bias from perseveration is a challenge not just for our work, but for the entire field of behavioral reinforcement learning. In fact, we argue that all studies claiming evidence for positivity bias, over and above an effect of perseveration, are subject to flaws, including being biased to find evidence for positivity/confirmation bias. Furthermore, we agree with the reviewer’s wish to see modelagnostic support and note there are currently no robust, behavioral, model-agnostic signatures implicating positivity bias over and above an effect of perseveration. While this remains an acknowledged limitation within our current work, we trust the reviewer will agree that relative to other efforts in the field, our current work pushes the boundary and takes several important steps beyond what has previously been done in this area.

      Below are some minor notes, mostly on the new content-hopefully easy; please don't put much time into addressing these!

      Main text

      where individuals preferably learn from . Perhaps "preferentially"?

      The text has been modified to accommodate the reviewer’s comment:

      “Additionally, in both experiments, participants exhibited increased learning from trustworthy information when it was preceded by non-credible information and an amplified normalized positivity bias for noncredible sources, where individuals preferentially learn from positive compared to negative feedback (relative to the overall extent of learning).”

      One interpretation of this model is as a "sophisticated" logistic ... the CA parameters take the role of "regression coefficients"

      Consider removing "sophisticated" and also the quotations around "regression coefficients". This came across as unprofessional to me.

      The text has been modified to accommodate the reviewer’s comment:

      “The probability to choose a bandit (say A over B) in this family of models is a logistic function of the contrast choice-propensities between these two bandits. One interpretation of this model is as a logistic regression, where the CA parameters take the role of regression coefficients corresponding to the change in log odds of repeating the just-taken action in future trials based on the feedback (+/- CA for positive or negative feedback, respectively; the model also includes gradual perseveration which allows for constant log-odd changes that are not affected by choice feedback).”

      These models operate as our instructed-credibility and free-credibility Bayesian models, but also incorporate a perseveration values, updated in each trial as in our CA models (Eqs. 3 and 5).

      Is Eq 3 supposed to be Eq 4 here? I don't see how Eq 3 is relevant. Relatedly, please use a variable other than P for perseveration because P(chosen) reads as "probability chosen" - and you actually use P in latter sense in e.g. Eq 11

      The text has been modified to accommodate the reviewer’s comment. P values have been changed to Pers and P(bandit) has been replaced by Prob(bandit). “All models also included gradual perseveration for each bandit. In each trial the perseveration values (Pers) were updated according to

      Where PERS is a free parameter representing the P-value change for the chosen bandit, and fP (Î[0,1]) is the free parameter denoting the forgetting rate applied to the Pers value. Additionally, the Pers-values of all the non-chosen bandits (i.e., again, the unchosen bandit of the current pair, and all the bandits from the not-shown pairs) were forgotten as follows:

      We modelled choices using a softmax decision rule, representing the probability of the participant to choose a given bandit over the alternative:

      SI

      Figure 24 and Figure 26: in the x tick labels, consider using e.g. "0.5 vs 1" rather than "0.5-1". I initially read this as a bin range.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. Our intention was to denote a direct subtraction (i.e., the effect for 0.5 credibility minus the effect for 1.0 credibility). We were concerned that not noting the subtraction might confuse readers about the direction of the plotted effect. We have clarified this in the figure legends:

      “Figure 24: Predicted positivity bias results for participants and for simulations of the Credibility-CA (including perseveration, but no valence-bias component). a, Valence bias results measured in absolute terms (by regressing the ML CA parameters, on their associated valence and credibility). b, Difference in positivity bias (measured in absolute terms) across credibility levels. On the x-axis, the hyphen (-) represents subtraction, such that a label of '0.5-1' indicates the difference in the measurement for the 0.5 and 1.0 credibility conditions. Such differences are again based in the same mixed effects model as plot a. The inflation of aVBI for lower-credibility agents is larger than the one predicted by a pure perseveration account. c, Valence bias results measured in relative terms (by regressing the rVBIs on their associated credibility). Participants present a higher rVBI than what would be predicted by a perseveration account (except for the completely credible agent). d, Difference in rVBI across credibility levels. Such differences are again based in the same mixed effects model as plot c. The inflation of rVBI for lower-credibility agents is larger than the one predicted by a pure perseveration account. Histograms depict the distribution of coefficients from 101 simulated group-level datasets generated by the Credibility-CA model and fitted with the Credibility-Valence CA model. Gray circles represent the mean coefficient from these simulations, while black/green circles show the actual regression coefficients from participant behaviour (green for significant effects in participants, black for non-significant). Significance markers (* p<.05, ** p<.01) indicate that fewer than 5% or 1% of simulated datasets, respectively, predicted an effect as strong as or stronger than that observed in participants, and in the same direction as the participant effect.”

      However, importantly, these simulations did not predict a change in the level of positivity bias as a function of feedback credibility

      You're confirming the null hypothesis here; running more simulations would likely yield a significant effect. The simulation shows a pretty clear pattern of increasing positivity bias with higher credibility. Crucially, this is the opposite of what people show. Please adjust the language accordingly.

      The text has been modified to accommodate the reviewer’s comment.

      “However, importantly, these simulations did not reveal a significant change in the level of positivity bias as a function of feedback credibility, neither at an absolute level (F(3,412)=1.43,p=0.24), nor at a relative level (F(3,412)=2.06,p=0.13) (Fig. S25a-c). Numerically, the trend was towards an increasing (rather than decreasing) positivity bias as a function of credibility.”

      More importantly, the inflation in positivity bias for lower credibility feedback is substantially higher in participants than what would be predicted by a pure perseveration account, a finding that holds true for both absolute (Fig. S24b) and relative (Fig. S24d) measures.

      A statistical test would be nice here, e.g. a regression like rVBI ~ credibility_1 * is_model. Alternatively, clearly state what to look for in the figure, where it is pretty clear when you know exactly what you're looking for.

      The text has been modified to make sure that the figure is easier to interpret (we pointed out to readers what they should look at):

      “Interestingly, a pure perseveration account predicted an amplification of the relative positivity bias under low (compared to full) credibility (with the two rightmost histograms in Fig. S24c falling in the positive range). However, the magnitude of this effect was significantly smaller than the empirical effect (as the bulk of these same histograms lies below the green points). Moreover, this account predicted a negative amplification (i.e., attenuation) of an absolute positivity bias, which was again significantly smaller than the empirical effect (see corresponding histograms in S24b). This pattern raises an intriguing possibility that perseveration may partially mask a true amplification of absolute positivity bias.”

    1. eLife Assessment

      This valuable study provides a large-scale EEG investigation into how visual deep neural networks (DNNs) and large language models (LLMs) differentially explain the temporal dynamics of visuo-semantic processing in the human brain. Although evidence convincingly shows that DNNs account for early perceptual responses, while LLMs capture later, low-frequency activity associated with semantic integration, the theoretical interpretation of LLM contributions and methodological aspects - including task engagement, justification of model choices, and dimensionality reduction - requires further clarification. The work will be of broad interest to fields of psychology, cognitive neuroscience, and artificial intelligence.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors provide a compelling case that the unique variance explained by LLMs is different (and later) than the unique variance explained by DNNs. This characterises when, and to some extent where, these differences occur, and for LLMs, why. The authors also probe what in the sentences is driving the brain alignment.

      Strengths:

      (1) The study is timely.

      (2) There is a robust dataset and results.

      (3) There is compelling separation between unique responses related to LLMs and DNNs.

      (4) The paper is well-written.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors could explore more of what the overlap between the LLM and DNN means, and in general, how this relates to untrained networks.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study provides an investigation into the temporal dynamics of visuo-semantic processing in the human brain, leveraging both deep neural networks (DNNs) and large language models (LLMs). By developing encoding models based on vision DNNs, LLMs, and their fusion, the authors demonstrate that vision DNNs preferentially account for early, broadband EEG responses, while LLMs capture later, low-frequency signals and more detailed visuo-semantic information. It is shown that the parietal cortex shows responses during visuo-semantic processing that can be partially accounted for by language features, highlighting the role of higher-level areas in encoding abstract semantic information.

      Strengths:

      The study leverages a very large EEG dataset with tens of thousands of stimulus presentations, which provides an unusually strong foundation for benchmarking a variety of vision DNNs and LLMs. This scale not only increases statistical power but also allows robust comparison across model architectures, ensuring that the conclusions are not idiosyncratic to a particular dataset or stimulus set.

      By using high-density EEG, the authors are able to capture the fine-grained temporal dynamics of visuo-semantic processing, going beyond the coarse temporal resolution of fMRI-based studies. This enables the authors to disentangle early perceptual encoding from later semantic integration, and to characterize how different model types map onto these stages of brain activity. The temporal dimension provides a particularly valuable complement to previous fMRI-based model-to-brain alignment studies.

      The encoding models convincingly show that vision DNNs and LLMs play complementary roles in predicting neural responses. The vision DNNs explain earlier broadband responses related to perceptual processing, while LLMs capture later, lower-frequency signals that reflect higher-order semantic integration. This dual contribution provides new mechanistic insights into how visual and semantic information unfold over time in the brain, and highlights the utility of combining unimodal models rather than relying on multimodal networks alone.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The experimental design is insufficiently described, particularly regarding whether participants were engaged in a behavioral task or simply passively viewing images. Task demands are known to strongly influence neural coding and representations, and without this information, it is difficult to interpret the nature of the EEG responses reported.

      (2) The description of the encoding model lacks precision and formalization. It is not entirely clear what exactly is being predicted, how the model weights are structured across time points, or the dimensionality of the inputs and outputs. A more formal mathematical formulation would improve clarity and reproducibility.

      (3) The selected vision DNNs (CORnet-S, ResNet, AlexNet, MoCo) have substantially lower ImageNet classification accuracies than current state-of-the-art models, with gaps of at least 10%. Referring to these models collectively as "vision DNNs" may overstate their representational adequacy. This performance gap raises concerns about whether the chosen models can fully capture the visual and semantic features needed for comparison with brain data. Clarification of the rationale for choosing these particular networks, and discussion of how this limitation might affect the conclusions, is needed.

      (4) The analytic framework treats "vision" and "language" as strictly separate representational domains. However, semantics are known to emerge in many state-of-the-art visual models, with different layers spanning a gradient from low-level visual features to higher-level semantic representations. Some visual layers may be closer to LLM-derived representations than others. By not examining this finer-grained representational structure within vision DNNs, the study may oversimplify the distinction between vision- and language-based contributions.

      (5) The study uses static images, which restricts the scope of the findings to relatively constrained visual semantics. This limitation may explain why nouns and adjectives improved predictions over vision DNNs, but verbs did not. Verbs often require dynamic information about actions or events, which static images cannot convey.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Rong et al., compare EEG image responses from a large-scale dataset to state-of-the-art vision and language models, as well as their fusion. They find that the fusion of models provides the best predictivity, with early contribution from vision models and later predictivity from language models. The paper has several strengths: high temporal resolution data (though at the expense of spatial resolution), detailed comparison of alignment (and differences) between vision and language model embeddings, and comparison of "fusion" of different DNN models.

      Despite the paper's strengths, it is not clear what is at stake with these findings or how they advance our knowledge beyond other recent studies showing vision versus language model predictions of visual cortex responses with fMRI.

      Strengths:

      The authors use a large-scale EEG dataset and a comprehensive modeling approach. The methods are sound and involve multiple model comparisons. In particular, the disentangling of vision and language model features is something that has been largely ignored in prior related studies.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors state their main hypothesis (lines 48-51) that human neural responses to visual stimulation are better modelled by combining representations from a vision DNN and an LLM than by the representations from either of the two components alone, and that the vision DNN and LLM components would uniquely predict earlier and later stages of visual processing, respectively.

      While they confirm this hypothesis in largely compelling ways, it is not clear whether these results tell us something about the brain beyond how to build the most predictive model.

      In particular, why do language models offer advantages over vision models, and what does this tell us about human visual processing? In several places, the discussion of advantages for the language model felt somewhat trivial and did not seem to advance our understanding of human vision, e.g., "responses for visual stimulation encode detailed information about objects and their properties" (lines 266-270) and "LLM representations capture detailed visuo-semantic information about the stimulus images" (line 293).

      (2) It is not clear what the high temporal resolution EEG data tell us that the whole-brain fMRI data do not. The latency results seem to be largely in line with fMRI findings, where the early visual cortex is better predicted by vision models, and the language model is better in later/more anterior regions. In addition, it would help to discuss whether the EEG signals are likely to be restricted to the visual cortex, or could the LLM predictivity explain downstream processing captured by whole-brain EEG signals?

      Relatedly, it would help the authors to expand on the implications of the frequency analysis.

      (3) While the authors test many combinations of vision and language models and show their "fusion" advantages are largely robust to these changes, it is still hard to ignore the vast differences between vision and language models, in terms of architecture and how they are trained. Two studies (Wang et al., 2023, and Conwell et al., 2024) have now shown that when properly controlling for architecture and dataset, there is little to no advantage of language alignment in predicting visual cortex responses. It would help for the authors to both discuss this aspect of the prior literature and to try to address the implications for their own findings (related to pt 1 about what, if anything, is "special" about language models).

      (4) Model features - it would help to state the dimensionality of the input embeddings for each model and how much variance is explained and preserved after the PCA step? I wonder how sensitive the findings are to this choice of dimensionality reduction, and whether an approach that finds the optimal model layer (in a cross-validated way) would show less of a difference between vision/language models (I realize this is not feasible with models like GPT-3).

      (5) To better understand the fusion advantage, it would help to look at the results, look for a pair of vision models and a pair of language models. Can a similar advantage be found by combining models from the same modality?

    1. eLife Assessment

      This valuable work defines a "learning proteome" for a C. elegans gustatory associative learning paradigm. These results provide the field with a new set of genes to further explore their roles in learning and memory, provide new tools for other labs to employ in their investigations of behavior, and molecular pathways revelant for C. elegans learning and memory. The methodological evidence and the quality of the dataset are convincing. The results will be of interest to neuroscientists and developmental biologists seeking to understand the self-assembly and operation of neural circuits for learning and memory.

      [Editors' note: this paper was reviewed by Review Commons.]

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Rahmani et al. utilize the TurboID method to characterize global proteome changes in the worm's nervous system induced by a salt-based associative learning paradigm. Altogether, they uncover 706 proteins tagged by the TurboID method in worms that underwent the memory-inducing protocol. Next, the authors conduct a gene enrichment analysis that implicates specific molecular pathways in salt-associative learning, such as MAP kinase and cAMP-mediated pathways, as well as specific neuronal classes including pharyngeal neurons, and specific sensory neurons, interneurons, and motor neurons. The authors then screen a representative group of hits from the proteome analysis. They find that mutants of candidate genes from the MAP kinase pathway, namely dlk-1 and uev-3, do not affect performance in the learning paradigm. Instead, multiple acetylcholine signaling mutants, as well as a protein-kinase-A mutant, significantly affected performance in the associative memory assay (e.g., acc-1, acc-3, lgc-46, and kin-2). Finally, the authors demonstrate that protein-kinase-A mutants, as well as acetylcholine signaling mutants, do not exhibit a phenotype in a related but distinct conditioning paradigm-aversive salt conditioning-suggesting their effect is specific to appetitive salt conditioning.

      Overall, the authors addressed the concerns raised in the previous review round, including the statistics of the chemotaxis experiments and the systems-level analysis of the neuron class expression patterns of their hits. I also appreciate the further attempt to equalize the sample size of the chemotaxis experiments and the transparent reporting of the sample size and statistics in the figure captions and Table S9. The new results from the panneuronal overexpression of the kin-2 gain-of-function allele also contribute to the manuscript. Together, these make the paper more compelling. The additional tested hits provide a comprehensive analysis of the main molecular pathways that could have affected learning. However, the revised manuscript includes more information and analysis, raising additional concerns.

      Major comments:

      As reviewer 4 noted, and as also shown to be relevant for C30G12.6 presented in Figure 6, the backcrossing of the mutants is important, as background mutations may lead to the observed effects. Could the authors add to Table 1, sheet 1, the outcrossing status of the tested mutants? It is important to validate that the results of the positive hits (where learning was affected), such as acc-1, acc-3, and lgc-46, do not stem from background mutations.

      The fold change in the number of hits for different neurons in the CENGEN-based rank analysis requires a statistical test (discussed on pages 17-19 and summarized in Table S7). Similar to the other gene enrichment analyses presented in the manuscript, the new rank analysis also requires a statistical test. Since the authors extensively elaborate on the results from this analysis, I think a statistical analysis is especially important for its interpretation. For example, if considering the IL1 neurons, which ranked highest, and assuming random groups of genes-each having the same size as those of the ranked neurons (209 genes in total for IL1 in Table S7)-how common would it be to get the calculated fold change of 1.38 or higher? Such bootstrapping analysis is common for enrichment analysis. Perhaps the authors could consult with an institutional expert (Dr. Pawel Skuza, Flinders University) for the statistical aspects of this analysis.

      The learning phenotypes from Figure S8, concerning acc-1, acc-3, and lgc-46 mutants, are summarized in a scheme in Figure 4; however, the chemotaxis results are found in the supplemental Figure S8. Perhaps I missed the reasoning, but for transparency, I think the relevant Figure S8 results should be shown together with their summary scheme in Figure 4.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study by Rahmani in colleagues, the authors sought to define the "learning proteome" for a gustatory associative learning paradigm in C. elegans. Using a cytoplasmic TurboID expressed under the control of a pan-neuronal promoter, the authors labeled proteins during the training portion of the paradigm, followed by proteomics analysis. This approach revealed hundreds of proteins potentially involved in learning, which the authors describe using gene ontology and pathway analysis. The authors performed functional characterization of over two dozen of these genes for their requirement in learning using the same paradigm. They also compared the requirement for these genes across various learning paradigms and found that most hits they characterized appear to be specifically required for the training paradigm used for generating the "learning proteome".

      Strengths:

      - The authors have thoughtfully and transparently designed and reported the results of their study. Controls are carefully thought-out, and hits are ranked as strong and weak. By combining their proteomics with behavioral analysis, the authors also highlight the biological significance of their proteomics findings, and support that even weak hits are meaningful.

      - The authors display a high degree of statistical rigor, incorporating normality tests into their behavioral data which is beyond the field standard.

      - The authors include pathway analysis that generates interesting hypotheses about processes involved learning and memory

      -The authors generally provide thoughtful interpretations for all of their results, both positive and negative, as well as any unexpected outcomes.

      Weaknesses:

      - The authors use the Cengen single cell-transcriptomic atlas to predict where the proteins in the "learning proteome" are likely to be expressed and use this data to identify neurons that are likely significant to learning, and building hypothetical circuit. This is an excellent idea; however, the Cengen dataset only contains transcriptomic data from juvenile L4 animals, while the authors performed their proteome experiments in Day 1 Adult animals. It is well documented that the C. elegans nervous system transcriptome is significant different between these two stages (Kaletsky et al., 2016, St. Ange et al., 2024), so the authors might be missing important expression data, resulting in inaccurate or incomplete networks. The adult neuronal single-cell atlas data (https://cestaan.princeton.edu/) would be better suited to incorporate into neuronal expression analysis.

      - The authors offer many interpretations for why mutants in "learning proteome" hits have no detectable phenotype, which is commendable. They are however overlooking another important interpretation, it is possible that these changes to the proteome are important for memory, which is dependent upon translation and protein level changes, and is molecularly distinct from learning. It is well established in the field mutating or knocking down memory regulators in other paradigms will often have no detectable effect on learning. Incorporating this interpretation into the discussion and highlighting it as an area for future exploration would strengthen the manuscript.

      -A minor weakness - In the discussion, the authors state that the Lakhina, et al 2015 used RNA-seq to assess memory transcriptome changes. This study used microarray analysis.

      Significance:

      The approach used in this study is interesting and has the potential to further our knowledge about the molecular mechanisms of associative behaviors. There have been multiple transcriptomic studies in the worm looking at gene expression changes in the context of behavioral training. This study compliments and extends those studies, by examining how the proteome changes in a different training paradigm. This approach here could be employed for multiple different training paradigms, presenting a new technical advance for the field. This paper would be of interest to the broader field of behavioral and molecular neuroscience. Though it uses an invertebrate system, many findings in the worm regarding learning and memory translate to higher organisms, making this paper of interest and significant to the broader field of behavioral neuroscience.

    4. Reviewer #4 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, authors used a learning paradigm in C. elegans; when worms were fed in a saltless plate, its chemotaxis to salt is greatly reduced. To identify learning-related proteins, authors employed nervous system-specific transcriptome analysis to compare whole proteins in neurons between high-salt-fed animals and saltless-fed animals. Authors identified "learning-specific proteins" which are observed only after saltless feeding. They categorized these proteins by GO analyses, pathway analyses and expression site analyses, and further stepped forward to test mutants in selected genes identified by the proteome analysis. They find several mutants that are defective or hyper-proficient for learning, including acc-1/3 and lgc-46 acetylcholine receptors, F46H5.3 putative arginine kinase, and kin-2, a cAMP pathway gene. These mutants were not previously reported to have abnormality in the learning paradigm.

      Concerns:

      Upon revision, authors addressed all concerns of this reviewer, and the results are now presented in a way that facilitates objective evaluation. Authors' conclusions are supported by the results presented, and the strength of the proteomics approach is persuasively demonstrated.

      Significance:

      (1) Total neural proteome analysis has not been conducted before for learning-induced changes, though transcriptome analysis has been performed for odor learning (Lakhina et al., http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2014.12.029). This warrants the novelty of this manuscript, because for some genes, protein levels may change even though mRNA levels remain the same. Although in a few reports TurboID has been used in C. elegans, this is the first report of a systematic analysis of tissue-specific differential proteomics.

      (2) Authors found five mutants that have abnormality in the salt learning. These genes have not been described to have the abnormality, providing novel knowledge to the readers, especially those who work on C. elegans behavioural plasticity. Especially, involvement of acetylcholine neurotransmission has not been addressed before. Although transgenic rescue experiments have not been performed except kin-2, and the site of action (neurons involved) has not been tested in this manuscript, it will open the venue to further determine the way in which acetylcholine receptors, cAMP pathway etc. influences the learning process.

    5. Author response:

      General Statements

      We thank the reviewers for providing us the opportunity to revise our manuscript titled “Identifying regulators of associative learning using a protein-labelling approach in C. elegans.” We appreciate the insightful feedback that we received to improve this work. In response, we have extensively revised the manuscript with the following changes: we have (1) clarified the criteria used for selecting candidate genes for behavioural testing, presenting additional data from ‘strong’ hits identified in multiple biological replicates (now testing 26 candidates, previously 17), (2) expanded our discussion of the functional relevance of validated hits, including providing new tissue-specific and neuron class-specific analyses, and (3) improved the presentation of our data, including visualising networks identified in the ‘learning proteome’, to better highlight the significance of our findings. We also substantially revised the text to indicate our attempts to address limitations related to background noise in the proteomic data and outlined potential refinements for future studies. All revisions are clearly marked in the manuscript in red font. A detailed, point-by-point response to each comment is provided below.

      Point-by-point description of the revisions:

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity):

      Summary:

      Rahmani et al., utilize the TurboID method to characterize the global proteome changes in the worm's nervous system induced by a salt-based associative learning paradigm. Altogether, Rahmani et al., uncover 706 proteins that are tagged by the TurboID method specifically in samples extracted from worms that underwent the memory inducing protocol. Next, the authors conduct a gene enrichment analysis that implicates specific molecular pathways in saltassociative learning, such as MAP-kinase and cAMP-mediated pathways. The authors then screen a representative group of the hits from the proteome analysis. The authors find that mutants of candidate genes from the MAP-kinase pathway, namely dlk-1 and uev-3, do not affect the performance in the learning paradigm. Instead multiple acetylcholine signaling mutants significantly affected the performance in the associative memory assay, e.g., acc-1, acc-3, gar-1, and lgc-46. Finally, the authors demonstrate that the acetylcholine signaling mutants did not exhibit a phenotype in similar but different conditioning paradigms, such as aversive salt-conditioning or appetitive odor conditioning, suggesting their effect is specific to appetitive salt conditioning.

      Major comments:

      (1) The statistical approach and analysis of the behavior assay:

      The authors use a 2-way ANOVA test which assumes normal distribution of the data. However, the chemotaxis index used in the study is bounded between -1 and 1, which prevents values near the boundaries to be normally distributed.

      Since most of the control data in this assay in this study is very close to 1, it strongly suggests that the CI data is not normally distributed and therefore 2-way ANOVA is expected to give skewed results.

      I am aware this is a common mistake and I also anticipate that most conclusions will still hold also under a more fitting statistical test.

      We appreciate the point raised by Reviewer 1 and understand the importance of performing the correct statistical tests.

      The statistical tests used in this study were chosen since parametric tests, particularly ANOVA tests to assess differences between multiple groups, are commonly used to assess behaviour in the C. elegans learning and memory field. Below is a summary of the tests used by studies that perform similar behavioural tests cited in this work, as examples:

      Author response table 1.

      A summary for the statistical tests performed by similar studies for chemotaxis assay data. References (listed in the leftmost column) were observed to (A) use parametric tests only or (B) performed either a parametric or non-parametric test on each chemotaxis assay dataset depending on whether the data passed a normality test. Listings for ANOVA tests are in bold to demonstrate their common use in the C. elegans learning and memory field.

      We note Reviewer 1's concern that this may stem from a common mistake. As stated, Two-way ANOVA generally relies on normally distributed data. We used GraphPad Prism to perform the Shapiro-Wilk normality test on our chemotaxis assay data as it is generally appropriate for sample sizes < 50 (α = 0.05), and found that most data passes this test including groups with skewed indices. For example, this is the data for Figure S8C:

      Author response table 2.

      Shapiro-Wilk normality test results for chemotaxis assay data in Figure S8C. Chemotaxis assay data was generated to assess salt associative learning capacity for wild-type (WT) versus lgc-46(-) mutant C. elegans. Three experimental groups were prepared for each C. elegans strain (naïve, high-salt control, and trained). From top-to-bottom, the data below displays the ‘W’ value, ‘P value’, a binary yes/no for whether the data passes the Shapiro-Wilk normality test, and a ‘P value summary’ (ns = nonsignificant). W values measure the similarity between a normal distribution and the chemotaxis assay data. Data is considered normal in the Shapiro-Wilk normality test when a W value is near 1.0 and the null hypothesis is not rejected (i.e., P value > 0.05).

      The manuscript now includes the use of the Shapiro-Wilk normality test to assess chemotaxis assay data before using two-way ANOVA on page 51.

      Nevertheless an appropriate statistical analysis should be performed. Since I assume the authors would wish to take into consideration both the different conditions and biological repeats, I can suggest two options:

      - Using a Generalized linear mixed model, one can do with R software.

      - Using a custom bootstrapping approach.

      We thank Reviewer 1 for suggesting these two options. We carefully considered both approaches and consulted with the in-house statistician at our institution (Dr Pawel Skuza, Flinders University) for expert advice to guide our decision. In summary:

      (1) Generalised linear mixed models: Generalised linear mixed models (GLMMs) are generally most appropriate for nested/hierarchal data. However, our chemotaxis assay data does not exhibit such nesting. Each biological replicate (N) consists of three technical replicates, which are averaged to yield a single chemotaxis index per N. Our statistical comparisons are based solely on these averaged values across experimental groups, making GLMMs less applicable in this context.

      (2) Bootstrapping: Based on advice from our statistician, while bootstrapping can be a powerful tool, its effectiveness is limited when applied to datasets with a low number of biological replicates (N). Bootstrapping relies on resampling existing data to simulate additional observations, which may artificially inflate statistical power and potentially suggest significance where the biological effect size is minimal or not meaningful. Increasing the number of biological replicates to accommodate bootstrapping could introduce additional variability and compromise the interpretability of the results.

      The total number of assays, especially controls, varies quite a bit between the tested mutants. For example compare the acc-1 experiment in Figure 4.A., and gap-1 or rho-1 in Figure S4.A and D. It is hard to know the exact N of the controls, but I assume that for example, lowering the wild type control of acc-1 to equivalent to gap-1 would have made it non significant. Perhaps the best approach would be to conduct a power analysis, to know what N should be acquired for all samples.

      We thoroughly evaluated performing the power analysis: however, this is typically performed with the assumption that an N = 1 represents a singular individual/person. An N =1 in this study is one biological replicate that includes hundreds of worms, which is why it is not typically employed in our field for this type of behavioural test.

      Considering these factors, we have opted to continue using a two-way ANOVA for our statistical analysis. This choice aligns with recent publications that employ similar experimental designs and data structures. Crucially, we have verified that our data meet the assumptions of normality, addressing key concerns regarding the suitability of parametric testing. We believe this approach is sufficiently rigorous to support our main conclusions. This rationale is now outlined on page 51.

      To be fully transparent, our aim is to present differences between wild-type and mutant strains that are clearly visible in the graphical data, such that the choice of statistical test does not become a limiting factor in interpreting biological relevance. We hope this rationale is understandable, and we sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s comment and the opportunity to clarify our analytical approach.

      We hope that Reviewer 1 will appreciate these considerations as sufficient justification to retain the statistical tests used in the original manuscript. Nevertheless, to constructively address this comment, we have performed the following revisions:

      (1) Consistent number of biological replicates: We performed additional biological replicates of the learning assay to confirm the behavioural phenotypes for the key candidates described (KIN-2 , F46H5.3, ACC-1, ACC-3, LGC-46). We chose N = 5 since most studies cited in this paper that perform similar behavioural tests do the same (see Author response table 3 below).

      Author response table 3.

      A summary for sample sizes generated by similar studies for chemotaxis assay data. References (listed in the leftmost column) were observed to the sample sizes (N) below corresponding to biological replicates of chemotaxis assay data. N values are in bold when the study uses N ≤ 5.

      (1) Grouped presentation of behavioural data: We now present all behavioural data by grouping genotypes tested within the same biological replicate, including wild-type controls, rather than combining genotypes tested separately. This ensures that each graph displays data from genotypes sharing the same N, also an important consideration for performing parametric tests. Accordingly, we re-performed statistical analyses using this reduced N for relevant graphs. As anticipated, this rendered some comparisons non-significant. All statistical comparisons are clearly indicated on each graph.

      (2) Improved clarity of figure legends: We revised figure legends for Figures 5, 6, S7, S8, & S9 to make clear how many biological replicates have been performed for each genotype by adding N numbers for each genotype in all figures.

      The authors use the phrasing "a non-significant trend", I find such claims uninterpretable and should be avoided. Examples: Page 16. Line 7 and Page 18, line 16.

      This is an important point. While we were not able to find the specific phrasing "a non-significant trend" from this comment in the original manuscript, we acknowledge that referring to a phenotype as both a trend and non-significant may confuse readers, which was originally stated in the manuscript in two locations.

      The main text has been revised on pages 27 & 28 when describing comparisons between trained groups between two C. elegans lines, by removing mentions of trends and retaining descriptions of non-significance.

      (2) Neuron-specific analysis and rescue of mutants:

      Throughout the study the authors avoid focusing on specific neurons. This is understandable as the authors aim at a systems biology approach, however, in my view this limits the impact of the study. I am aware that the proteome changes analyzed in this study were extracted from a pan neuronally expressed TurboID. Yet, neuron-specific changes may nevertheless be found. For example, running the protein lists from Table S2, in the Gene enrichment tool of wormbase, I found, across several biological replicates, enrichment for the NSM, CAN and RIG neurons. A more careful analysis may uncover specific neurons that take part in this associative memory paradigm. In addition, analysis of the overlap in expression of the final gene list in different neurons, comparing them, looking for overlap and connectivity, would also help to direct towards specific circuits.

      This is an important and useful suggestion. We appreciate the benefit in exploring the data from this study from a neuron class-specific lens, in addition to the systems-level analyses already presented.

      The WormBase gene enrichment tool is indeed valuable for broad transcriptomic analyses (the findings from utilising this tool are now on page 16); however, its use of Anatomy Ontology (AO) terms also contains annotations from more abundant non-neuronal tissues in the worm. To strengthen our analysis and complement the Wormbase tool, we also used the CeNGEN database as suggested by Reviewer 3 Major Comment 1 (Taylor et al., 2021), which uses single cell RNA-Seq data to profile gene expression across the C. elegans nervous system. We input our learning proteome data into CeNGEN as a systemic analysis, identifying neurons highly represented by the learning proteome (on pages 16-20). To do this, we specifically compared genes/proteins from high-salt control worms and trained worms to identify potential neurons that may be involved in this learning paradigm. Briefly, we found:

      - WormBase gene enrichment tool: Enrichment for anatomy terms corresponding to specific interneurons (ADA, RIS, RIG), ventral nerve cord neurons, pharyngeal neurons (M1, M2, M5, I4), PVD sensory neurons, DD motor neurons, serotonergic NSM neurons, and CAN.

      - CeNGEN analysis: Representation of neurons previously implicated in associative learning (e.g., AVK interneurons, RIS interneurons, salt-sensing neuron ASEL, CEP & ADE dopaminergic neurons, and AIB interneurons), as well as neurons not previously studied in this context (pharyngeal neurons I3 & I6, polymodal neuron IL1, motor neuron DA9, and interneuron DVC). Methods are detailed on pages 50 & 51.

      These data are summarised in the revised manuscript as Table S7 & Figure 4.

      To further address the reviewer’s suggestion, we examined the overlap in expression patterns of the validated learning-associated genes acc-1, acc-3, lgc-46, kin-2, and F46H5.3 across the neuron classes above, using the CeNGEN database. This was done to explore potential neuron classes in which these regulators may act in to regulate learning. This analysis revealed both shared and distinct expression profiles, suggesting potential functional connectivity or co-regulation among subsets of neurons. To summarise, we found:

      - All five learning regulators are expressed in RIM interneurons and DB motor neurons.

      - KIN-2 and F46H5.3 share the same neuron expression profile and are present in many neurons, so they may play a general function within the nervous system to facilitate learning.

      - ACC-3 is expressed in three sensory neuron classes (ASE, CEP, & IL1).

      - In contrast, ACC-1 and LGC-46 are expressed in neuron classes (in brackets) implicated in gustatory or olfactory learning paradigms (AIB, AVK, NSM, RIG, & RIS) (Beets et al., 2012, Fadda et al., 2020, Wang et al., 2025, Zhou et al., 2023, Sato et al., 021), neurons important for backward or forward locomotion (AVE, DA, DB, & VB) (Chalfie et al., 1985), and neuron classes for which their function is yet detailed in the literature (ADA, I4, M1, M2, & M5).

      These neurons form a potential neural circuit that may underlie this form of behavioural plasticity, which we now describe in the main text on pages 16-20 & 34-35 and summarise in Figure 4.

      OPTIONAL: A rescue of the phenotype of the mutants by re-expression of the gene is missing, this makes sure to avoid false-positive results coming from background mutations. For example, a pan neuronal or endogenous promoter rescue would help the authors to substantiate their claims, this can be done for the most promising genes. The ideal experiment would be a neuron-specific rescue but this can be saved for future works.

      We appreciate this suggestion and recognise its potential to strengthen our manuscript. In response, we made many attempts to generate pan-neuronal and endogenous promoter reexpression lines. However, we faced several technical issues in transgenic line generation, including poor survival following microinjection likely due to protein overexpression toxicity (e.g., C30G12.6, F46H5.3), and reduced animal viability for chemotaxis assays, potentially linked to transgene-related reproductive defects (e.g., ACC-1). As we have previously successfully generated dozens of transgenic lines in past work (e.g. Chew et al., Neuron 2018; Chew et al., Phil Trans B 2018; Gadenne/Chew et al., Life Science Alliance 2022), we believe the failure to produce most of these lines is not likely due to technical limitations. For transparency, these observations have been included in the discussion section of the manuscript on pages 39 & 40 as considerations for future troubleshooting.

      Fortunately, we were able to generate a pan-neuronal promoter line for KIN-2 that has been tested and included in the revised manuscript. This new data is shown in Figure 5B and described on pages 23 & 24. Briefly, this shows that pan-neuronal expression of KIN-2 from the ce179 mutant allele is sufficient to reproduce the enhanced learning phenotype observed in kin2(ce179) animals, confirming the role of KIN-2 in gustatory learning.

      To address the potential involvement of background mutations (also indicated by Reviewer 4 under ‘cross-commenting’), we have also performed experiments with backcrossed versions of several mutants. These experiments aimed to confirm that salt associative learning phenotypes are due to the expected mutation. Namely, we assessed kin-2(ce179) mutants that had been backcrossed previously by another laboratory, as well as C30G12.6(-) and F46H5.3(-) animals backcrossed in this study. Although not all backcrossed mutants retained their original phenotype (i.e., C30G12.6) (Figure 6D, a newly added figure), we found that backcrossed versions of KIN-2 and F46H5.3 both robustly showed enhanced learning (Figures 5A & 6B).

      This is described in the text on pages 23-26.

      Minor comments:

      (1) Lack of clarity regarding the validation of the biotin tagging of the proteome.

      The authors show in Figure 1 that they validated that the combination of the transgene and biotin allows them to find more biotin-tagged proteins. However there is significant biotin background also in control samples as is common for this method. The authors mention they validated biotin tagging of all their experiments, but it was unclear in the text whether they validated it in comparison to no-biotin controls, and checked for the fold change difference.

      This is an important point: We validated our biotin tagging method prior to mass spectrometry by comparing ‘no biotin’ and ‘biotin’ groups. This is shown in Figure S1 in the revised manuscript, which includes a western blot comparing untreated and biotin treated animals that are nontransgenic or expressing TurboID. As expected, by comparing biotinylated protein signal for untreated and treated lanes within each line, biotin treatment increased the signal 1.30-fold for non-transgenic and 1.70-fold for TurboID C. elegans. This is described on page 8 of the revised manuscript.

      To clarify, for mass spectrometry experiments, we tested a no-TurboID (non-transgenic) control, but did not perform a no-biotin control. We included the following four groups: (1) No-TurboID ‘control’ (2) No-TurboID ‘trained’, (3) pan-neuronal TurboID ‘control’ and (4) pan-neuronal TurboID ‘trained’, where trained versus control refers to whether ‘no salt’ was used as the conditioned stimulus or not, respectively (illustrated in Figure 1A). Due to the complexity of the learning assay (which involves multiple washes and handling steps, including a critical step where biotin is added during the conditioning period), and the need to collect sufficient numbers of worms for protein extraction (>3,000 worms per experimental group), adding ‘no-biotin’ controls would have doubled the number of experimental groups, which we considered unfeasible for practical reasons. This is explained on pages 8 & 9 of the revised manuscript.

      Also, it was unclear which exact samples were tested per replicate. In Page 9, Lines 17-18: "For all replicates, we determined that biotinylated proteins could be observed ...", But in Page 8, Line 24 : "We then isolated proteins from ... worms per group for both 'control' and 'trained' groups,... some of which were probed via western blotting to confirm the presence of biotinylated proteins".

      Could the authors specify which samples were verified and clarify how?

      Thank you for pointing out these unclear statements: We have clarified the experimental groups used for mass spectrometry experiments as detailed in the response above on pages 8 & 9. In addition, western blots corresponding to each biological replicate of mass spectrometry data described in the main text on page 10 and have been added to the revised manuscript (as Figure S3). These western blots compare biotinylation signal for proteins extracted from (1) NoTurboID ‘control’ (2) No-TurboID ‘trained’, (3) pan-neuronal TurboID ‘control’ and (4) panneuronal TurboID ‘trained’. These blots function to confirm that there were biotinylated proteins in TurboID samples, before enrichment by streptavidin-mediated pull-down for mass spectrometry.

      OPTIONAL: include the fold changes of biotinylated proteins of all the ones that were tested. Similar to Figure 1.C.

      This is an excellent suggestion. As recommended by the reviewer, we have included foldchanges for biotinylated protein levels between high-salt control and trained groups (on pages 9 & 10 for replicate #1 and in Table S2 for replicates #2-5). This was done by measuring protein levels in whole lanes for each experimental group per biological replicate within western blots (Figure 1C for replicate #1 and Figure S3 for replicates #2-5) of protein samples generated for mass spectrometry (N = 5).

      (2) Figure 2 does not add much to the reader, it can be summarized in the text, as the fraction of proteins enriched for specific cellular compartments.

      I would suggest to remove Figure 2 (originally written as figure 3) to text, or transfer it to the supplementry material.

      As noted in cross-comment response to Reviewer 4, there were typos in the original figure references, we have corrected them above. Essentially, this comment is referring to Figure 2.

      We appreciate this feedback from Reviewer 1. We agree that the original Figure 2 functions as a visual summary from analysis of the learning proteome at the subcellular compartment level. However, it also serves to highlight the following:

      - Representation for neuron-specific GO terms is relatively low, but even this small percentage represents entire protein-protein networks that are biologically meaningful, but that are difficult to adequately describe in the main text.

      - TurboID was expressed in neurons so this figure supports the relevance of the identified proteome to biological learning mechanisms.

      - Many of these candidates could not be assessed by learning assay using single mutants since related mutations are lethal or substantially affect locomotion. These networks therefore highlight the benefit in using strategies like TurboID to study learning.

      We have chosen to retain this figure, moving it to the supplementary material as Figure S4 in the revised manuscript, as suggested.

      OPTIONAL- I would suggest the authors to mark in a pathway summary figure similar to Figure 3 (originally written as Figure 4) the results from the behavior assay of the genetic screen. This would allow the reader to better get the bigger picture and to connect to the systemic approach taken in Figures 2 and 3.

      We think this is a fantastic suggestion and thank Reviewer 1 for this input. In the revised manuscript, we have added Figure 7, which summarises the tested candidates that displayed an effect on learning, mapped onto potential molecular pathways derived from networks in the learning proteome. This figure provides a visual framework linking the behavioural outcomes to the network context. This is described in the main text on pages 32-33.

      (3) Typo in Figure 3: the circle of PPM1: The blue right circle half is bigger than the left one.

      We thank the Reviewer for noticing this, the node size for PPM-1.A has been corrected in what is now Figure 2 in the revised work.

      (4) Unclarity in the discussions. In the discussion Page 24, Line 14, the authors raise this question: "why are the proteins we identified not general learning regulators?. The phrasing and logic of the argumentation of the possible answers was hard to follow. - Can you clarify?

      We appreciate this feedback in terms of unclarity, as we strive to explain the data as clearly and transparently as possible. Our goal in this paragraph was to discuss why some candidates were seen to only affect salt associative learning, as opposed to showing effects in multiple learning paradigms (i.e., which we were defining as a ‘general learning regulator’). We have adjusted the wording in several places in this paragraph now on pages 36 & 37 to address this comment. We hope the rephrased paragraph provides sufficient rationalisation for the discussion regarding our selection strategy used to isolate our protein list of potential learning regulators, and its potential limitations.

      Cross-Commenting

      Firstly, we would like to express our appreciation for the opportunity for reviewers to crosscomment on feedback from other reviewers. We believe this is an excellent feature of the peer review process, and we are grateful to the reviewers for their thoughtful engagement and collaborative input.

      I would like to thank Reviewer #4 for the great cross comment summary, I find it accurate and helpful.

      I also would like to thank Reviewer #4 for spotting the typos in my minor comments, their page and figure numbers are the correct ones.

      We have corrected these typos in the relevant comments, and have responded to them accordingly.

      Small comment on common point 1 - My feeling is that it is challanging to do quantitative mass spectrometry, especially with TurboID. In general, the nature of MS data is that it hints towards a direction but a followup validation work is required in order to assess it. For example, I am not surprised that the fraction of repeats a hit appeared in does not predict well whether this hit would be validated behavioraly. Given these limitations, I find the authors' approach reasonable.

      We thank Reviewer 1 for this positive and thoughtful feedback. We also appreciate Reviewer 4’s comment regarding quantitative mass spectrometry and have addressed this in detail below (see response to Reviewer 4). However, we agree with Reviewer 1 that there are practical challenges to performing quantitative mass spectrometry with TurboID, primarily due to the enrichment for biotinylated proteins that is a key feature of the sample preparation process.

      Importantly, we whole-heartedly agree with Reviewer 1’s statement that “In general, the nature of MS data is that it hints towards a direction but a follow-up validation work is required in order to assess it”. This is the core of our approach: however, we appreciate that there are limitations to a qualitative ‘absent/present’ approach. We have addressed some of these limitations by clarifying the criteria used for selecting candidate genes, based additionally on the presence of the candidate in multiple biological replicates (categorised as ‘strong’ hits). Based on this method, we were able to validate the role of several novel learning regulators (Figures 5, 6, & S7). We sincerely hope that this manuscript can function as a direction for future research, as suggested by this Reviewer.

      I also would like to highlight this major comment from reviewer 4:

      "In Experimental Procedures, authors state that they excluded data in which naive or control groups showed average CI < 0.6499, and/or trained groups showed average CI < -0.0499 or > .5499 for N2 (page 36, lines 5-7). "

      This threshold seems arbitrary to me too, and it requires the clarifications requested by reviewer 4.

      As detailed in our response to Reviewer 4, Major Comment 2, data were excluded only in rare cases, specifically when N2 worms failed to show strong salt attraction prior to training, or when trained N2 worms did not exhibit the expected behavioural difference compared to untrained controls – this can largely be attributed to clear contamination or over-population issues, which are visible prior to assessing CTX plates and counting chemotaxis indices.

      These criteria were initially established to provide an objective threshold for excluding biological replicates, particularly when planning to assay a large number of genetic mutants. However, after extensive testing across many replicates, we found that N2 worms (that were not starved, or not contaminated) consistently displayed the expected phenotype, rendering these thresholds unnecessary. We acknowledge that emphasizing these criteria may have been misleading, and have therefore removed them from page 50 in the revised manuscript to avoid confusion and ensure clarity.

      Reviewer #1 (Significance):

      This study does a great job to effectively utilize the TurboID technique to identify new pathways implicated in salt-associative learning in C. elegans. This technique was used in C. elegans before, but not in this context. The salt-associative memory induced proteome list is a valuable resource that will help future studies on associative memory in worms. Some of the implicated molecular pathways were found before to be involved in memory in worms like cAMP, as correctly referenced in the manuscript. The implication of the acetylcholine pathway is novel for C. elgeans, to the best of my knowledge. The finding that the uncovered genes are specifically required for salt associative memory and not for other memory assays is also interesting.

      However overall I find the impact of this study limited. The premise of this work is to use the Turbo-ID method to conduct a systems analysis of the proteomic changes. The work starts by conducting network analysis and gene enrichment which fit a systemic approach. However, since the authors find that ~30% of the tested hits affect the phenotype, and since only 17/706 proteins were assessed, it is challenging to draw conclusive broad systemic claims.

      Alternatively, the authors could have focused on the positive hits, and understand them better, find the specific circuits where these genes act. This could have increased the impact of the work. Since neither of these two options are satisfied, I view this work as solid, but not wide in its impact and therefore estimate the audience of this study would be more specialized.

      My expertise is in C. elegans behavior, genetics, and neuronal activity, programming and machine learning.

      We thank the Reviewer for these comments and appreciate the recognition of the value of the proteomic dataset and the identification of novel molecular pathways, including the acetylcholine pathway, as well as the specificity of the uncovered genes to salt-associative memory. Regarding the reviewer’s concern about the overall impact and scope of the study, we respectfully offer the following clarification. Our aim was to establish a systems-level approach for investigating learning-related proteomic changes using TurboID, and we acknowledge that only a subset of the identified proteins was experimentally tested (now 26/706 proteins in the revised manuscript). Although only five of the tested single gene mutants showed a robust learning phenotype in the revised work (after backcrossing, more stringent candidate selection, improved statistical analysis in addressing reviewer comments), our proteomic data provides us a unique opportunity to define these candidates within protein-protein networks (as illustrated in Figure 7). Importantly, our functional testing focused on single-gene mutants, which may not reveal phenotypes for genes that act redundantly (now mentioned on pages 28-30). This limitation is inherent to many genetic screens and highlights the value of our proteomic dataset, which enables the identification of broader protein-protein interaction networks and molecular pathways potentially involved in learning.

      To support this systems-level perspective, we have added Figure 7, which visually integrates the tested candidates into molecular pathways derived from the learning proteome for learning regulators KIN-2 and F46H5.3. We also emphasise more explicitly in the text (on pages 32-33) the value of our approach by highlighting the functional protein networks that can be derived from our proteomics dataset.

      We fully acknowledge that the use of TurboID across all neurons limits the resolution needed to pinpoint individual neuron contributions, and understand the benefit in further experiments to explore specific circuits. Many circuits required for salt sensing and salt-based learning are highly explored in the literature and defined explicitly (see Rahmani & Chew, 2021), so our intention was to complement the existing literature by exploring the protein-protein networks involved in learning, rather than on neuron-neuron connectivity. However, we recognise the benefit in integrating circuit-level analyses, given that our proteomic data suggests hundreds of candidates potentially involved in learning. While validating each of these candidates is beyond the scope of the current study, we have taken steps to suggest candidate neurons/circuits by incorporating tissue enrichment analyses and single-cell transcriptomic data (Table S7 & Figure 4). These additions highlight neuron classes of interest and suggest possible circuits relevant to learning.

      We hope this clarification helps convey the intended scope and contribution of our study. We also believe that the revisions made in response to Reviewer 1’s feedback have strengthened the manuscript and enhanced its significance within the field.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity):

      Summary:

      In this study by Rahmani in colleagues, the authors sought to define the "learning proteome" for a gustatory associative learning paradigm in C. elegans. Using a cytoplasmic TurboID expressed under the control of a pan-neuronal promoter, the authors labeled proteins during the training portion of the paradigm, followed by proteomics analysis. This approach revealed hundreds of proteins potentially involved in learning, which the authors describe using gene ontology and pathways analysis. The authors performed functional characterization of some of these genes for their requirement in learning using the same paradigm. They also compared the requirement for these genes across various learning paradigms, and found that most hits they characterized appear to be specifically required for the training paradigm used for generating the "learning proteome".

      Major Comments:

      (1) The definition of a "hit" from the TurboID approach is does not appear stringent enough. According to the manuscript, a hit was defined as one unique peptide detected in a single biological replicate (out of 5), which could give rise to false positives. In figure S2, it is clear that there relatively little overlap between samples with regards to proteins detected between replicates, and while perhaps unintentional, presenting a single unique peptide appears to be an attempt to inflate the number of hits. Defining hits as present in more than one sample would be more rigorous. Changing the definition of hits would only require the time to re-list genes and change data presented in the manuscript accordingly.

      We thank Reviewer 2 for this valuable comment, and the following related suggestion. We agree with the statement that “Defining hits as present in more than one sample would be more rigorous”. Therefore, to address this comment, we have now separated candidates into two categories in Table 2 in the revised manuscript: ‘strong’ (present in 3 or more biological replicates) and ‘weak’ candidates (present in 2 or fewer biological replicates). However, we think these weaker candidates should still be included in the manuscript, considering we did observe relationships between these proteins and learning. For example, ACC-1, which influences salt associative learning in C. elegans, was detected in one replicate of mass spectrometry as a potential learning regulator (Figure S8A). We describe this classification in the main text on pages 21-22.

      We also agree with Reviewer 2 that the overlap between individual candidate hits is low between biological replicates; the inclusion of Figure S2 in the original manuscript serves to highlight this limitation. However, it is also important to consider that there is notable overlap for whole molecular pathways between biological replicates of mass spectrometry data as shown in Figure 2 in the revised manuscript (this consideration is now mentioned on pages 13-14). We have included Figure 3 to illustrate representation for two metabolic processes across several biological replicates normally indispensable to animal health, as an example to provide additional visual aid for the overlap between replicates of mass spectrometry. We provide this figure (described on pages 13 & 15) to demonstrate the strength of our approach in that it can detect candidates not easily assessable by conventional forward or reverse genetic screens.

      We also appreciate the opportunity to explain our approach. The criteria of “at least one unique peptide” was chosen based on a previous work for which we adapted for this manuscript (Prikas et al., 2020). It was not intended to inflate the number of hits but rather to ensure sensitivity in detecting low-abundance neuronal proteins. We have clarified this in our Methods (page 46).

      (2) The "hits" that the authors chose to functionally characterize do not seem like strong candidate hits based on the proteomics data that they generated. Indeed, most of the hits are present in a single, or at most 2, biological replicate. It is unclear as to why the strongest hits were not characterized, which if mutant strains are publicly available, would not be a difficult experiment to perform.

      We thank the reviewer for this important suggestion. To address this, we have described two molecular pathways with multiple components that appear in more than one biological replicate of mass spectrometry data in Figure 3 (main text on page 13). In addition, we have included Figures 6 & S7 where 9 additional single mutants corresponding to candidates in three or more biological replicates of mass spectrometry were tested for salt associative learning. Briefly, we found the following (number of replicates that a protein was unique to TurboID trained animals is in brackets):

      - Novel arginine kinase F46H5.3 (4 replicates) displays an effect in both salt associative learning and salt aversive learning in the same direction (Figures 6A, 6B, & S9A, pages 31-32 & 37-38).

      - Worms with a mutation for armadillo-domain protein C30G12.6 (3 replicates) only displayed an enhanced learning phenotype when non-backcrossed, not backcrossed. This suggests the enhanced learning phenotype was caused by a background mutation (Figure 6, pages 24-25).

      - We did not observe an effect on salt associative learning when assessing mutations for the ciliogenesis protein IFT-139 (5 replicates), guanyl nucleotide factors AEX-3 or TAG52 (3 replicates), p38/MAPK pathway interactor FSN-1 (3 replicates), IGCAM/RIG-4 (3 replicates), and acetylcholine components ACR-2 (4 replicates) and ELP-1 (3 replicates) (Figure S7, on pages 27-30). However, we note throughout the section for which these candidates are described that only single gene mutants were tested, meaning that genes that function in redundant or compensatory pathways may not exhibit a detectable phenotype.

      Because of the lack of strong evidence that these are indeed proteins regulated in the context of learning based on proteomics, including evidence of changes in the proteins (by imaging expression changes of fluorescent reporters or a biochemical approach), would increase confidence that these hits are genuine.

      We thank Reviewer 2 for this suggestion – we agree that it would have been ideal to have additional evidence suggesting that changes in candidate protein levels are associated directly with learning. Ideally, we would have explored this aspect further; however, as outlined in response to Reviewer 1 Major Comment 2 (OPTIONAL), this was not feasible within the scope of the current study due to several practical challenges. Specifically, we attempted to generate pan-neuronal and endogenous promoter rescue lines for several candidates, but encountered significant challenges, including poor survival post-microinjection (likely due to protein overexpression toxicity) and reduced viability for behavioural assays, potentially linked to transgene-related reproductive defects. This information is now described on pages 39 & 40 of the revised work.

      To address these limitations, we performed additional behavioural experiments where possible. We successfully generated a pan-neuronal promoter line for kin-2, which was tested and included in the revised manuscript (Figure 5B, pages 30 & 31). In addition, to confirm that observed learning phenotypes were due to the expected mutations and not background effects, we conducted experiments using backcrossed versions of several mutant lines as suggested by Reviewer 4 Cross Comment 3 (Figure 6, pages 23-24 & 24-26). Briefly, this shows that panneuronal expression of KIN-2 from the ce179 mutant allele is sufficient to repeat the enhanced learning phenotype observed in backcrossed kin-2(ce179) animals, providing additional evidence that the identified hits are required for learning. We also confirmed that F46H5.3 modulates salt associative learning, given both non-backcrossed and backcrossed F46H5.3(-) mutants display a learning enhancement phenotype. The revised text now describes this data on the page numbers mentioned above.

      Minor Comments:

      (1) The authors highlight that the proteins they discover seem to function uniquely in their gustatory associative paradigm, but this is not completely accurate. kin-2, which they characterize in figure 4, is required for positive butanone association (the authors even say as much in the manuscript) in Stein and Murphy, 2014.

      We appreciate this correction and thank the Reviewer for pointing this out. We have amended the wording appropriately on page 31 to clarify our meaning.

      “Although kin-2(ce179) mutants were not shown to impact salt aversive learning, they have been reported previously to display impaired intermediate-term memory (but intact learning and short-term memory) for butanone appetitive learning (Stein and Murphy, 2014).”

      Reviewer #2 (Significance):

      General Assessment:

      The approach used in this study is interesting and has the potential to further our knowledge about the molecular mechanisms of associative behaviors. Strengths of the study include the design with carefully thought out controls, and the premise of combining their proteomics with behavioral analysis to better understand the biological significance of their proteomics findings. However, the criteria for defining hits and prioritization of hits for behavioral characterizations were major wweaknesses of the paper.

      Advance:

      There have been multiple transcriptomic studies in the worm looking at gene expression changes in the context of behavioral training (Lakhina et al., 2015, Freytag 2017). This study compliments and extends those studies, by examining how the proteome changes in a different training paradigm. This approach here could be employed for multiple different training paradigms, presenting a new technical advance for the field.

      Audience:

      This paper would be of interest to the broader field of behavioral and molecular neuroscience. Though it uses an invertebrate system, many findings in the worm regarding learning and memory translate to higher organisms.

      I am an expert in molecular and behavioral neuroscience in both vertebrate and invertebrate models, with experience in genetics and genomics approaches.

      We appreciate Reviewer 2’s thoughtful assessment and constructive feedback. In response to concerns regarding definition and prioritisation of hits, we have revised our approach as detailed above to place more consideration on ‘strong’ hits present in multiple biological replicates. We have also added new behavioural data for additional mutants that fall into this category (Figures 6 & S7). We hope these revisions strengthen our study and enhance its relevance to the behavioural/molecular neuroscience community.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity):

      Summary:

      In the manuscript titled "Identifying regulators of associative learning using a protein-labelling approach in C. elegans" the authors attempted to generate a snapshot of the proteomic changes that happen in the C. elegans nervous system during learning and memory formation. They employed the TurboID-based protein labeling method to identify the proteins that are uniquely found in samples that underwent training to associate no-salt with food, and consequently exhibited lower attraction to high salt in a chemotaxis assay. Using this system they obtained a list of target proteins that included proteins represented in molecular pathways previously implicated in associative learning. The authors then further validated some of the hits from the assay by testing single gene mutants for effects on learning and memory formation.

      Major Comments:

      In the discussion section, the authors comment on the sources of "background noise" in their data and ways to improve the specificity. They provide some analysis on this aspect in Supplementary figure S2. However, a better visualization of non-specificity in the sample could be a GO analysis of tissue-specificity, and presented as a pie chart as in Figure 2A. Nonneuronal proteins such as MYO-2 or MYO-3 repeatedly show up on the "TurboID trained" lists in several biological replicates (Tables S2 and S3). If a major fraction of the proteins after subtraction of control lists are non-specific, that increases the likelihood that the "hits" observed are by chance. This analysis should be presented in one of the main figures as it is essential for the reader to gauge the reliability of the experiment.

      We agree with this assessment and thank Reviewer 3 for this constructive suggestion. In response, we have now incorporated a comprehensive tissue-specific analysis of the learning proteome in the revised manuscript. Using the single neuron RNA-Seq database CeNGEN, we identified the proportion of neuronal vs non-neuronal proteins from each biological replicate of mass spectrometry data. Specifically, we present Table 1 on page 17 (which we originally intended to include in the manuscript, but inadvertently left out), which shows that 87-95% (i.e. a large majority) of proteins identified across replicates corresponded to genes detected in neurons, supporting that the TurboID enzyme was able to target the neuronal proteome as expected. Table 1 is now described in the main text of the revised work on page 16.

      In addition, we performed neuron-specific analyses using both the WormBase gene enrichment tool and the CeNGEN single-cell transcriptomic database, which we describe in detail on our response to Reviewer 1 Major Comment 2. To summarise, these analyses revealed enrichment of several neuron classes, including those previously implicated in associative learning (e.g., ASEL, AIB, RIS, AVK) as well as neurons not previously studied in this context (e.g., IL1, DA9, DVC) (summarised in Table S7). By examining expression overlap across neuron types, we identified shared and distinct profiles that suggest potential functional connectivity and candidate circuits underlying behavioural plasticity (Figure 4). Taken together, these data show that the proteins identified in our dataset are (1) neuronal and (2) expressed in neurons that are known to be required for learning. Methods are detailed on pages 50-51.

      Other than the above, the authors have provided sufficient details in their experimental and analysis procedures. They have performed appropriate controls, and their data has sufficient biological and technical replaictes for statistical analysis.

      We appreciate this positive feedback and thank the Reviewer for acknowledging the clarity of our experimental and analysis procedures.

      Minor Comments:

      There is an error in the first paragraph of the discussion, in the sentences discussing the learning effects in gar-1 mutant worms. The sentences in lines 12-16 on page 22 says that gar-1 mutants have improved salt-associative learning and defective salt-aversive learning, while in fact the data and figures state the opposite.

      We appreciate the Reviewer noting this discrepancy. As clarified in our response to Reviewer 1, Major Comment 1 above, we reanalysed the behavioural data to ensure consistency across genotypes by comparing only those tested within the same biological replicates (thus having the same N for all genotypes). Upon this reanalysis, we found that the previously reported phenotype for gar-1 mutants in salt-associative learning was not statistically different from wildtype controls. Therefore, we have removed references to GAR-1 from the manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance):

      Strengths and limitations:

      This study used neuron-specific TurboID expression with transient biotin exposure to capture a temporally restricted snapshot of the C. elegans nervous system proteome during saltassociative learning. This is an elegant method to identify proteins temporally specific to a certain condition. However, there are several limitations in the way the experiments and analyses were performed which affect the reliability of the data. As the authors themselves have noted in the discussion, background noise is a major issue and several steps could be taken to improve the noise at the experimental or analysis steps (use of integrated C. elegans lines to ensure uniformity of samples, flow cytometry to isolate neurons, quantitative mass spec to detect fold change vs. strict presence/absence).

      Advance:

      Several studies have demonstrated the use of proximity labeling to map the interactome by using a bait protein fusion. In fact, expressing TurboID not fused to a bait protein is often used as a negative control in proximity labeling experiments. However, this study demonstrates the use of free TurboID molecules to acquire a global snapshot of the proteome under a given condition.

      Audience:

      Even with the significant limitations, this study is specifically of interest to researchers interested in understanding learning and memory formation. Broadly, the methods used in this study could be modified to gain insights into the proteomic profiles at other transient developmental stages. The reviewer's field of expertise: Cell biology of C. elegans neurons.

      We thank the reviewer for their thoughtful evaluation of our work. We appreciate the recognition of the novelty and potential of using neuron-specific TurboID to capture a temporally restricted snapshot of the C. elegans nervous system proteome during learning. We agree that this approach offers a unique opportunity to identify proteins associated with specific behavioural states in future studies.

      We also appreciate the reviewer’s comments regarding limitations in experimental and analytical design. In revising the manuscript, we have taken several steps to address these concerns and improve the clarity, rigour, and interpretability of our data. Specifically:

      - We now provide a frequency-based representation of proteomic hits (Table 2), which helps clarify how candidate proteins were selected and highlights differences between trained and control groups.

      - We have added neuron-specific enrichment analyses using both WormBase and CenGEN databases (Table S7 & Figure 4), which help identify candidate neurons and potential circuits involved in learning (methods on pages 50-51).

      - We have clarified the rationale for using qualitative proteomics in the context of TurboID, in addition to acknowledging the challenges of integrating quantitative mass spectrometry with biotin-based enrichment (page 39). Additional methods for improving sample purity, such as using integrated lines or FACS-enrichment of neurons, could further refine this approach in future studies. For transparency, we did attempt to integrate the TurboID transgenic line to improve the strength and consistency of biotinylation signals. However, despite four rounds of backcrossing, this line exhibited unexpected phenotypes, including a failure to respond reliably to the established training protocol. As a result, we were unable to include it in the current study. Nonetheless, we believe our current approach provides a valuable proof-of-concept and lays the groundwork for future refinement.

      By addressing the major concerns of peer reviewers, we believe our study makes a significant and impactful contribution by demonstrating the feasibility of using TurboID to capture learninginduced proteomic changes in the nervous system. The identification of novel learning-related mutants, including those involved in acetylcholine signalling and cAMP pathways, provides new directions for future research into the molecular and circuit-level mechanisms of behavioural plasticity.

      Reviewer #4 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, authors used a learning paradigm in C. elegans; when worms were fed in a saltless plate, its chemotaxis to salt is greatly reduced. To identify learning-related proteins, authors employed nervous system-specific transcriptome analysis to compare whole proteins in neurons between high-salt-fed animals and saltless-fed animals. Authors identified "learningspecific genes" which are observed only after saltless feeding. They categorized these proteins by GO analyses and pathway analyses, and further stepped forward to test mutants in selected genes identified by the proteome analysis. They find several mutants that are defective or hyper-proficient for learning, including acc-1/3 and lgc-46 acetylcholine receptors, gar-1 acetylcholine receptor GPCR, glna-3 glutaminase involved in glutamate biosynthesis, and kin-2, a cAMP pathway gene. These mutants were not previously reported to have abnormality in the learning paradigm.

      Major comments:

      (1) There are problems in the data processing and presentation of the proteomics data in the current manuscript which deteriorates the utility of the data. First, as the authors discuss (page 24, lines 5-12), the current approach does not consider amount of the peptides. Authors state that their current approach is "conservative", because some of the proteins may be present in both control and learned samples but in different amounts. This reviewer has a concern in the opposite way: some of the identified proteins may be pseudo-positive artifacts caused by the analytical noise. The problem is that authors included peptides that are "present" in "TurboID, trained" sample but "absent" in the "Non-Tg, trained" and "TurboID, control" samples in any one of the biological replicates, to identify "learning proteome" (706 proteins, page 8, last line - page 9, line 8; page 32, line 21-22). The word "present" implies that they included even peptides whose amounts are just above the detection threshold, which is subject to random noise caused by the detector or during sample collection and preparation processes. This consideration is partly supported by the fact that only a small fraction of the proteins are common between biological replicates (honestly and respectably shown in Figure S2). Because of this problem, there is no statistical estimate of the identity in "learning proteome" in the current manuscript. Therefore, the presentation style in Tables S2 and S3 are not very useful for readers, especially because authors already subtracted proteins identified in Non-Tg samples, which must also suffer from stochastic noise. I suggest either quantifying the MS/MS signal, or if authors need to stick to the "present"/"absent" description of the MS/MS data, use the number of appearances in biological replicates of each protein as estimate of the quantity of each protein. For example, found in 2 replicates in "TurboID, learned" and in 0 replicates in "Non-Tg, trained". One can apply statistics to these counts. This said, I would like to stress that proteins related to acquisition of memory may be very rare, especially because learning-related changes likely occur in a small subset of neurons. Therefore, 1 time vs 0 time may be still important, as well as something like 5 times vs 1 time. In summary, quantitative description of the proteomics results is desired.

      We thank the reviewer for these valuable comments and suggestions.

      We acknowledge that quantitative proteomics would provide beneficial information; however, as also indicated by Reviewer 1 (in cross-comment), it is practically challenging to perform with TurboID. We have included discussion of potential future experiments involving quantitative mass spectrometry, as well as a comprehensive discussion of some of the limitations of our approach as summarised by this Reviewer, in the Discussion section (page 39). However, we note that our qualitative approach also provides beneficial knowledge, such as the identification of functional protein networks acting within biological pathways previously implicated in learning (Figure 2), and novel learning regulators ACC-1/3, LGC-46, and F46H5.3.

      We agree with the assessment that the frequency of occurrence for each candidate we test per biological replicate is useful to disclose in the manuscript as a proxy for quantification. This was also highlighted by Reviewer 2 (Major Comment 1). As detailed above in response to R2, we have now separated candidates into two categories: ‘strong’ (present in 3 or more biological replicates) and ‘weak’ candidates (present in 2 or fewer biological replicates). We have also added behavioural data after testing 9 of these strong candidates in Figures 6 & S7.

      We have also added Table 2 to the revised manuscript, which summarises the frequency-based representation of the proteomics results, as suggested. This is described on pages 22-23.

      Briefly, this shows the range of candidates further explored using single mutant testing. Specifically, this data showed that many of the tested candidates were more frequently detected in trained worms compared to high-salt controls. This includes both strong and weak candidates, providing a clearer view of how proteomic frequency informed our selection for functional testing.

      (2) There is another problem in the treatment of the behavioural data. In Experimental Procedures, authors state that they excluded data in which naive or control groups showed average CI < 0.6499, and/or trained groups showed average CI < -0.0499 or > 0.5499 for N2 (page 36, lines 5-7). How were these values determined? One common example for judging a data point as an outlier is > mean + 1.5, 2 or 3 SD, or < mean - 1.5, 2 or 3 SD. Are these values any of these standards, or determined through other methods? If these values were determined simply by authors' decision, it could potentially introduce a bias and in the worst cases lead to incorrect conclusions. A related question is, authors state "trained animals showed a lower CI (~0.3)" where in the referred Figure 1B, the corresponding data shows averages close to 0. Why is the inconsistency? The assay that authors use is close to those described in the previous literature (Kunitomo et al., http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/ncomms3210). In this previous paper, it was described that animals conditioned under no salt with food show negative CI and are attracted to the low salt concentration area. Quantitative analysis of behavioural patterns showed migration bias towards lower salt concentrations (negative chemotaxis). Essentially the same concept was reported by Luo et al. (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2014.05.010). The experimental procedure employed in the current work is very similar with those by the Japanese group, with a notable difference: the chemotaxis assay plate included 50mM NaCl in Kunitomo et al, while authors used chemotaxis plate without added NaCl (p35, line 18). The latter is expected to cause shallow gradient towards the low-salt area, which may be the reason for the weak negative CI in the trained animals. In any case, the value of CI itself is not a problem, and authors' current assay is valid. The only concern of mine is the potential of author-introduced cognitive bias, possibly affecting, for example, whether a certain mutant has a significant defect or not. What happens if the cut-offs of -0.0499 and 0.5499 are omitted and all data were included in the analyses? What are the average CIs of N2 in all performed experiments for each of naive, control and trained groups?

      Thank you for pointing this out. As mentioned by both Reviewer 1 and Reviewer 4, the original manuscript states the following: “Data was excluded for salt associative learning experiments when wild-type N2 displayed (1) an average CI ≤ 0.6499 for naïve or control groups and/or (2) an average CI either < -0.0499 or >0.5499 for trained groups.”

      To clarify, we only excluded experiments in rare cases where N2 worms did not display robust high salt attraction before training, or where trained N2 did not display the expected behavioural difference compared to untrained or high-salt control N2. These anomalies were typically attributable to clear contamination or starvation issues that could clearly be observed prior to counting chemotaxis indices on CTX plates.

      We established these exclusion criteria in advance of conducting multiple learning assays to ensure an objective threshold for identifying and excluding assays affected by these rare but observable issues. However, these criteria were later found to be unnecessary, as N2 worms robustly displayed the expected untrained and trained phenotypes for salt associative learning when not compromised by starvation or contamination.

      We understand that the original criteria may have appeared to introduce arbitrary bias in data selection. To address this concern, we have removed these criteria from the revised manuscript from page 50.

      Minor comments:

      (1) Related to Major comments 1), the successful effect of neuron-specific TurboID procedure was not evaluated. Authors obtained both TurboID and Non-Tg proteome data. Do they see enrichment of neuron-specific proteins? This can be easily tested, for example by using the list of neuron-specific genes by Kaletsky et al. (http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature16483 or http://dx.doi.org/10.1371/journal.pgen.1007559), or referring to the CenGEN data.

      We thank this Reviewer for this helpful suggestion, which was echoed by Reviewer 3 (Major Comment 1). As indicated in the response to R3 above, the revised manuscript now includes Table 1 as a tissue-specific analysis of the learning proteome, using the single neuron RNASeq database CeNGEN to identify the proportion of neuronal proteins from each biological replicate of mass spectrometry data. Generally, we observed a range of 87-95% of proteins corresponded to genes from the CeNGEN database that had been detected in neurons, providing evidence that the TurboID enzyme was able to target the neuronal proteome as expected. Table 1 is now described in the main text of the revised work on pages 16 & 17.

      (2) The behavioural paradigm needs to be described accurately. Page 5, line 16-17, "C. elegans normally have a mild attraction towards higher salt concentration": in fact, C. elegans raised on NGM plates, which include approximately 50mM of NaCl, is attracted to around 50mM of NaCl (Kunitomo et al., Luo et al.) but not 100-200 mM.

      We thank the Reviewer for pointing this out. We agree that clarification is necessary. The revised text reads as follows on page 5: “C. elegans are typically grown in the presence of salt (usually ~ 50 mM) and display an attraction toward this concentration when assayed for chemotaxis behaviour on a salt gradient (Kunitomo et al., 2013, Luo et al., 2014).

      Training/conditioning with ‘no salt + food’ partially attenuates this attraction (group referred to ‘trained’).”

      Authors call this assay "salt associative learning", which refers to the fact that worms associate salt concentration (CS) and either presence or absence of food (appetitive or aversive US) during conditioning (Kunitomo et al., Luo et al., Nagashima et al.) but they are looking at only association with presence of food, and for proteome analysis they only change the CS (NaCl concentration, as discussed in Discussion, p24, lines 4-5). It is better to attempt to avoid confusion to the readers in general.

      Thank you Reviewer 4 for highlighting this clarity issue. We clarify our definition of “salt associative learning” for the purpose of this study in the revised manuscript on page 6 with the following text:

      “Similar behavioural paradigms involving pairings between salt/no salt and food/no food have been previously described in the literature (Nagashima et al. 2019). Here, learning experiments were performed by conditioning worms with either ‘no salt + food’ (referred to as ‘salt associative learning’) or ‘salt + no food’ (called ‘salt aversive learning’).”

      (3) page 32, line 23: the wording "excluding" is obscure and misleading because the elo-6 gene was included in the analysis.

      We appreciate this Reviewer for pointing out this misleading comment, which was unintentional. We have now removed it from the text (on page 21).

      (4) Typo at page 24, line 18: "that ACC-1" -> "than ACC-1".

      This has been corrected (on page 37).

      (5) Reference. In "LEO, T. H. T. et al.", given and sir names are flipped for all authors. Also, the paper has been formally published (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2023.07.041).

      We appreciate the Reviewer drawing our attention to this – the reference has been corrected and updated.

      I would like to express my modest cross comments on the reviews:

      (1) Many of the reviewers comment on the shortage in the quantitative nature of the proteome analysis, so it seems to be a consensus.

      Thank you Reviewer 4 for this feedback. We appreciate the benefit in performing quantitative mass spectrometry, in that it provides an additional way to parse molecular mechanisms in a biological process (e.g., fold-changes in protein expression induced by learning). However, we note that quantitative mass spectrometry is challenging to integrate with TurboID due to the requirement to enrich for biotinylated peptides during sample processing (we now mention this on page 39). Nevertheless, it would be exciting to see this approach performed in a future study.

      To address the limitations of our original qualitative approach and enhance the clarity and utility of our dataset, we have made the following revisions in the manuscript:

      (1) Candidate selection criteria: We now clearly define how candidates were selected for functional testing, based on their frequency across biological replicates. Specifically, “strong candidates” were detected in three or more replicates, while “weak candidates” appeared in two or fewer.

      (2) Frequency-based representation (Table 2):We appreciate the suggestion by Reviewer 4 (Major Comment 1) to quantify differences between high-salt control and trained groups. We now provide the frequency-based representation of the candidates tested in this study within our proteomics data in Table 2. This data showed that many of the tested candidates were more frequently detected in trained worms compared to high-salt controls. This includes both strong and weak candidates

      We hope these additions help clarify our approach and demonstrate the value of the dataset, even within the constraints of qualitative proteomics.

      (2) Also, tissue- or cell-specificity of the identified proteins were commonly discussed. In reviewer #3's first Major comment, appearance of non-neuronal protein in the list was pointed out, which collaborate with my (#4 reviewer's) question on successful identification of neuronal proteins by this method. On the other hand, reviewer #1 pointed out subset neuron-specific proteins in the list. Obviously, these issues need to be systematically described by the authors.

      We agree with Reviewer 4 that these analyses provide a critical angle of analysis that is not explored in the original manuscript.

      Tissue analysis (Reviewer 3 Major Comment 1): We have used the single neuron RNA-Seq database CeNGEN, to identify that 87-95% (i.e. a large majority) of proteins identified across replicates corresponded to genes detected in neurons. These findings support that the TurboID enzyme was able to target the neuronal proteome as expected. Table 1 provides this information as is now described in the main text of the revised work on page 16.

      Neuron class analyses (Reviewer 1 Major Comment 2): In response, we have used the suggested Wormbase gene enrichment tool and CeNGEN. We specifically input proteins from the learning proteome into Wormbase, after filtering for proteins unique to TurboID trained animals. For CeNGEN, we compared genes/proteins from control worms and trained worms to identify potential neurons that may be involved in this learning paradigm.

      Briefly, we found highlight a range of neuron classes known in learning (e.g., RIS interneurons), cells that affect behaviour but have not been explored in learning (e.g., IL1 polymodal neurons), and neurons for which their function/s are unknown (e.g., pharyngeal neuron I3). Corresponding text for this new analysis has been added on pages 16-20, with a new table and figure added to illustrate these findings (Table S7 & Figure 4). Methods are detailed on pages 50-51.

      (3) Given reviewer #1's OPTIONAL Major comment, as an expert of behavioral assays in C. elegans, I would like to comment based on my experience that mutants received from Caenorhabditis Genetics Center or other labs often lose the phenotype after outcrossing by the wild type, indicating that a side mutation was responsible for the observed behavioral phenotype. Therefore, outcrossing may be helpful and easier than rescue experiments, though the latter are of course more accurate.

      Thank you for this suggestion. To address the potential involvement of background mutations, we have done experiments with backcrossed versions of mutants tested where possible, as shown in Figure 6. We found that F46H5.3(-) mutants maintained enhanced learning capacity after backcrossing with wild type, compared to their non-backcrossed mutant line. This was in contrast to C30G12.6(-) animals which lost their enhanced learning phenotype following backcrossing using wild type worms. This is described in the text on pages 24-26.

      (4) Just let me clarify the first Minor comment by reviewer #2. Authors described that the kin-2 mutant has abnormality in "salt associative learning" and "salt aversive learning", according to authors' terminology. In this comment by reviewer #2, "gustatory associative learning" probably refers to both of these assays.

      Reviewer 4 is correct. We have amended the wording appropriately on page 31 to clarify our meaning to address Reviewer 2’s comment.

      “Although kin-2(ce179) mutants were not shown to impact salt aversive learning, they have been reported previously to display impaired intermediate-term memory (but intact learning and short-term memory) for butanone appetitive learning (Stein and Murphy, 2014).”

      (5) There seem to be several typos in reviewer #1's Minor comments.

      "In Page 9, Lines 17-18" -> "Page 8, Lines 17-18".

      "Page 8, Line 24" -> "Page 7, Line 24".

      "I would suggest to remove figure 3" -> "I would suggest to remove figure 2"

      "summary figure similar to Figure 4" -> "summary figure similar to Figure 3"

      "In the discussion Page 24, Line 14" -> "In the discussion Page 23, Line 14"

      (I note that because a top page was inserted in the "merged" file but not in art file for review, there is a shift between authors' page numbers and pdf page numbers in the former.) It would be nice if reviewer #1 can confirm on these because I might be wrong.

      We appreciate Reviewer 4 noting this, and can confirm that these are the correct references (as indicated by Reviewer 1 in their cross-comments)

      Reviewer #4 (Significance):

      (1) Total neural proteome analysis has not been conducted before for learning-induced changes, though transcriptome analysis has been performed for odor learning (Lakhina et al., http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2014.12.029). This guarantees the novelty of this manuscript, because for some genes, protein levels may change even though mRNA levels remain the same. We note an example in which a proteome analysis utilizing TurboID, though not the comparison between trained/control, has led to finding of learning related proteins (Hiroki et al., http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/s41467-022-30279-7). As described in the Major comments 1) in the previous section, improvement of data presentation will be necessary to substantiate this novelty.

      We appreciate this thoughtful feedback. We agree that while the neuronal transcriptome has been explored in Lakhina et al., 2015 for C. elegans in the context of memory, our study represents the first to examine learning-induced changes in the total neuronal proteome. We particularly agree with the statement that “for some genes, protein levels may change even though mRNA levels remain the same”. This is essential rationale that we now discuss on page 42.

      Additionally, we acknowledge the relevance of the study by Hiroki et al., 2022, which used TurboID to identify learning-related proteins, though not in a trained versus control comparison. Our work builds on this by directly comparing trained and control conditions, thereby offering new insights into the proteomic landscape of learning. This is now clarified on page 36.

      To substantiate the novelty and significance of our approach, we have revised the data presentation throughout the manuscript, including clearer candidate selection criteria, frequency-based representation of proteomic hits (Table 2), and neuron-specific enrichment analyses (Table S7 & Figure 4). We hope these improvements help convey the unique contribution of our study to the field.

      (2) Authors found six mutants that have abnormality in the salt learning (Fig. 4). These genes have not been described to have the abnormality, providing novel knowledge to the readers, especially those who work on C. elegans behavioural plasticity. Especially, involvement of acetylcholine neurotransmission has not been addressed. Although site of action (neurons involved) has not been tested in this manuscript, it will open the venue to further determine the way in which acetylcholine receptors, cAMP pathway etc. influences the learning process.

      Thank you Reviewer 4, for this encouraging feedback. To further strengthen the study and expand its relevance, we have tested additional mutants in response to Reviewer 3’s comments, as shown in Figures 6 & S7. These results provide even more candidate genes and pathways for future exploration, enhancing the significance and impact of our study.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      The central issue for evaluating the overfilling hypothesis is the identity of the mechanism that causes the very potent (>80% when inter pulse is 20 ms), but very quickly reverting (< 50 ms) paired pulse depression (Fig 1G, I). To summarize: the logic for overfilling at local cortical L2/3 synapses depends critically on the premise that probability of release (pv) for docked and fully primed vesicles is already close to 100%. If so, the reasoning goes, the only way to account for the potent short-term enhancement seen when stimulation is extended beyond 2 pulses would be by concluding that the readily releasable pool overfills. However, the conclusion that pv is close to 100% depends on the premise that the quickly reverting depression is caused by exocytosis dependent depletion of release sites, and the evidence for this is not strong in my opinion. Caution is especially reasonable given that similarly quickly reverting depression at Schaffer collateral synapses, which are morphologically similar, was previously shown to NOT depend on exocytosis (Dobrunz and Stevens 1997). Note that the authors of the 1997 study speculated that Ca2+-channel inactivation might be the cause, but did not rule out a wide variety of other types of mechanisms that have been discovered since, including the transient vesicle undocking/re-docking (and subsequent re-priming) reported by Kusick et al (2020), which seems to have the correct timing.

      Thank you for your comments on an alternative possibility besides Ca<sup>2+</sup> channel inactivation. Kusick et al. (2020) showed that transient destabilization of docked vesicle pool is recovered within 14 ms after stimulation. This rapid recovery implies that post-stimulation undocking events might be largely resolved before the 20 ms inter-stimulus interval (ISI) used in our paired-pulse ratio (PPR) experiments, arguing against the possibility that post-AP undocking/re-docking events significantly influence PPR measured at 20 ms ISI. Furthermore, Vevea et al. (2021) showed that post-stimulus undocking is facilitated in synaptotagmin-7 (Syt7) knockout synapses. In our study, Syt7 knockdown did not affect PPR at 20 ms ISI, suggesting that the undocking process described in Kusick et al. may not be a major contributor to the paired-pulse depression observed at 20 ms interval in our study. Therefore, it is unlikely that transient vesicle undocking primarily underlies the strong PPD at 20 ms ISI in our experiments. Taken together, the undocking/redocking dynamics reported by Kusick et al. are too rapid to affect PPR at 20 ms ISI, and our Syt7 knockdown data further argue against a significant role of this process in the PPD observed at 20 ms interval.

      In an earlier round of review, I suggested raising extracellular Ca<sup>2+</sup>, to see if this would increase synaptic strength. This is a strong test of the authors' model because there is essentially no room for an increase in synaptic strength. The authors have now done experiments along these lines, but the result is not clear cut. On one hand, the new results suggest an increase in synaptic strength that is not compatible with the authors' model; technically the increase does not reach statistical significance, but, likely, this is only because the data set is small and the variation between experiments is large. Moreover, a more granular analysis of the individual experiments seems to raise more serious problems, even supporting the depletion-independent counter hypothesis to some extent. On the other hand, the increase in synaptic strength that is seen in the newly added experiments does seem to be less at local L2/3 cortical synapses compared to other types of synapses, measured by other groups, which goes in the general direction of supporting the critical premise that pv is unusually high at L2/3 cortical synapses. Overall, I am left wishing that the new data set were larger, and that reversal experiments had been included as explained in the specific points below.

      Specific Points:

      (1) One of the standard methods for distinguishing between depletion-dependent and depletion-independent depression mechanisms is by analyzing failures during paired pulses of minimal stimulation. The current study includes experiments along these lines showing that pv would have to be extremely close to 1 when Ca<sup>2+</sup> is 1.25 mM to preserve the authors' model (Section "High double failure rate ..."). Lower values for pv are not compatible with their model because the k<sub>1</sub> parameter already had to be pushed a bit beyond boundaries established by other types of experiments.

      It should be noted that we did not arbitrarily pushed the k<sub>1</sub> parameter beyond boundaries, but estimated the range of k<sub>1</sub> based on the fast time constant for recovery from paired pulse depression as shown in Fig. 3-S2-Ab.

      The authors now report a mean increase in synaptic strength of 23% after raising Ca to 2.5 mM. The mean increase is not quite statistically significant, but this is likely because of the small sample size. I extracted a 95% confidence interval of [-4%, +60%] from their numbers, with a 92% probability that the mean value of the increase in the full population is > 5%. I used the 5% value as the greatest increase that the model could bear because 5% implies pv < 0.9 using the equation from Dodge and Rahamimoff referenced in the rebuttal. My conclusion from this is that the mean result, rather than supporting the model, actually undermines it to some extent. It would have likely taken 1 or 2 more experiments to get above the 95% confidence threshold for statistical significance, but this is ultimately an arbitrary cut off.

      Our key claim in Fig. 3-S3 is not the statistical non-significance of EPSC changes, but the small magnitude of the change (1.23-fold). This small increase is far less than the 3.24-fold increase predicted by the fourth-power relationship (D&R equation, Dodge & Rahamimoff, 1967), which would be valid under the conditions that the fusion probability of docked vesicles (p<sub>v</sub>) is not saturated. We do not believe that addition of new experiments would increase the magnitude of EPSC change as high as the Dodge & Rahamimoff equation predicts, even if more experiments (n) yielded a statistical significance. In other words, even a small but statistically significant EPSC changes would still contradict with what we expect from low p<sub>v</sub> synapses. It should be noted that our main point is the extent of EPSC increase induced by high external [Ca<sup>2+</sup>], not a p-value. In this regard, it is hard for us to accept the Reviewer’s request for larger sample size expecting lower p-value.

      Although we agree to Reviewer’s assertion that our data may indicate a 92% probability for the high Ca<sup>2+</sup> -induced EPSC increases by more than 5%, we do not agree to the Reviewer’s interpretation that the EPSC increase necessarily implies an increase in p<sub>v</sub>. We are sorry that we could not clearly understand the Reviewer’s inference that the 5% increase of EPSCs implies p<sub>v</sub> < 0.9. Please note that release probability (p<sub>r</sub>) is the product of p<sub>v</sub> and the occupancy of docked vesicles in an active zone (p<sub>occ</sub>). We imagine that this inference might be under the premise that p<sub>occ</sub> is constant irrespective of external [Ca<sup>2+</sup>]. Contrary to the Reviewer’s premise, Figure 2c in Kusick et al. (2020) showed that the number of docked SVs increased by c. a. 20% upon increasing external [Ca<sup>2+</sup>] to 2 mM. Moreover, Figure 7F in Lin et al. (2025) demonstrated that the number of TS vesicles, equivalent to p<sub>occ</sub> increased by 23% at high external [Ca<sup>2+</sup>]. These extents of p<sub>occ</sub> increases are similar to our magnitude of high external Ca<sup>2+</sup> -induced increase in EPSC (1.23-fold). Of course, it is possible that both increase of p<sub>occ</sub> and p<sub>v</sub> contributed to the high [Ca<sup>2+</sup>]<sub>o</sub>-induced increase in EPSC. The low PPR and failure rate analysis, however, suggest that p<sub>v</sub> is already saturated in baseline conditions of 1.3 mM [Ca<sup>2+</sup>]<sub>o</sub> and thus it is more likely that an increase in p<sub>occ</sub> is primarily responsible for the 1.23-fold increase. Moreover, the 1.23-fold increase, does not match to the prediction of the D&R equation, which would be valid at synapses with low p<sub>v</sub>. Therefore, interpreting our observation (1.23-fold increase) as a slight increase in p<sub>occ</sub> is rather consistent with recent papers (Kusick et al.,2020; Lin et al., 2025) as well as our other results supporting the baseline saturation of p<sub>v</sub> as shown in Figure 2 and associated supplement figures (Fig. 2-S1 and Fig. 2-S2).

      (2) The variation between experiments seems to be even more problematic, at least as currently reported. The plot in Figure 3-figure supplement 3 (left) suggests that the variation reflects true variation between synapses, not measurement error.

      Note that there was a substantial variance in the number of docked or TS vesicles at baseline and its fold changes at high external Ca<sup>2+</sup> condition in previous studies too (Lin et al., 2025; Kusick et al., 2020). Our study did not focus on the heterogeneity but on the mean dynamics of short-term plasticity at L2/3 recurrent synapses. Acknowledging this, the short-term plasticity of these synapses could be best explained by assuming that vesicular fusion probability (p<sub>v</sub>) is near to unity, and that release probability is regulated by p<sub>occ</sub>. In other words, even though p<sub>v</sub> is near to unity, synaptic strength can increase upon high external [Ca<sup>2+</sup>], if the baseline occupancy of release sites (p<sub>occ</sub>) is low and p<sub>occ</sub> is increased by high [Ca<sup>2+</sup>]. Lin et al. (2025) showed that high external [Ca<sup>2+</sup>] induces an increase in the number of TS vesicles (equivalent to p<sub>occ</sub>) by 23% at the calyx synapses. Different from our synapses, the baseline p<sub>v</sub> (denoted as p<sub>fusion</sub> in Lin et al., 2025) of the calyx synapse is not saturated (= 0.22) at 1.5 mM external [Ca<sup>2+</sup>], and thus the calyx synapses displayed 2.36-fold increase of EPSC at 2 mM external [Ca<sup>2+</sup>], to which increases in p<sub>occ</sub> as well as in p<sub>v</sub> (from 0.22 to 0.42) contributed. Therefore, the small increase in EPSC (= 23%) supports that p<sub>v</sub> is already saturated at L2/3 recurrent synapses.

      And yet, synaptic strength increased almost 2-fold in 2 of the 8 experiments, which back extrapolates to pv < 0.2.

      We are sorry that we could not understand the first comment in this paragraph. Could you explain in detail why two-fold increase implies pv < 0.2?

      If all of the depression is caused by depletion as assumed, these individuals would exhibit paired pulse facilitation, not depression. And yet, from what I can tell, the individuals depressed, possibly as much as the synapses with low sensitivity to Ca<sup>2+</sup>, arguing against the critical premise that depression equals depletion, and even arguing - to some extent - for the counter hypothesis that a component of the depression is caused by a mechanism that is independent of depletion.

      For the first statement in this paragraph, we imagine that ‘the depression’ means paired pulse depression (PPD). If so, we can not understand why depletion-dependent PPD should lead to PPF. If the paired pulse interval is too short for docked vesicles to be replenished, the first pulse-induced vesicle depletion would result in PPD. We are very sorry that we could not understand Reviewer’s subsequent inference, because we could not understand the first statement.

      I would strongly recommend adding an additional plot that documents the relationship between the amount of increase in synaptic strength after increasing extracellular Ca<sup>2+</sup> and the paired pulse ratio as this seems central.

      We found no clear correlation of EPSC<sub>1</sub> with PPR changes (ΔPPR) as shown in the figure below.

      Author response image 1.

      Plot of PPR changes as a function of EPSC1.<br />

      (3) Decrease in PPR. The authors recognize that the decrease in the paired-pulse ratio after increasing Ca<sup>2+</sup> seems problematic for the overfilling hypothesis by stating: "Although a reduction in PPR is often interpreted as an increase in pv, under conditions where pv is already high, it more likely reflects a slight increase in p<sub>occ</sub> or in the number of TS vesicles, consistent with the previous estimates (Lin et al., 2025)."

      We admit that there is a logical jump in our statement you mentioned here. We appreciate your comment. We re-wrote that part in the revised manuscript (line 285) as follows:

      “Recent morphological and functional studies revealed that elevation of [Ca<sup>2+</sup>]<sub>o</sub> induces an increase in the number of TS or docked vesicles to a similar extent as our observation (Kusick et al., 2020; Lin et al., 2025), raising a possibility that an increase in p<sub>occ</sub> is responsible for the 1.23-fold increase in EPSC at high [Ca<sup>2+</sup>]<sub>o</sub> . A slight but significant reduction in PPR was observed under high [Ca<sup>2+</sup>]<sub>o</sub> too. An increase in p<sub>occ</sub> is thought to be associated with that in the baseline vesicle refilling rate. While PPR is always reduced by an increase in p<sub>v,</sub> the effects of refilling rate to PPR is complicated. For example, PPR can be reduced by both a decrease (Figure 2—figure supplement 1) and an increase (Lin et al., 2025) in the refilling rate induced by EGTA-AM and PDBu, respectively. Thus, the slight reduction in PPR is not contradictory to the possible contribution of p<sub>occ</sub> to the high [Ca<sup>2+</sup>]<sub>o</sub> effects.”

      I looked quickly, but did not immediately find an explanation in Lin et al 2025 involving an increase in pocc or number of TS vesicles, much less a reason to prefer this over the standard explanation that reduced PPR indicates an increase in pv.

      Fig. 7F of Lin et al. (2025) shows an 1.23-fold increase in the number of TS vesicles by high external [Ca<sup>2+</sup>]. The same figure (Fig. 7E) in Lin et al. (2025) also shows a two-fold increase of p<sub>fusion</sub> (equivalent to p<sub>v</sub> in our study) by high external [Ca<sup>2+</sup>] (from 0.22 to 0.42,). Because p<sub>occ</sub> is the occupancy of TS vesicles in a limited number of slots in an active zone, the fold change in the number of TS vesicles should be similar to that of p<sub>occ</sub>.

      The authors should explain why the most straightforward interpretation is not the correct one in this particular case to avoid the appearance of cherry picking explanations to fit the hypothesis.

      The results of Lin et al. (2025) indicate that high external [Ca<sub>2+</sub>] induces a milder increase in p<sub>occ</sub> (23%) compared to p<sub>v</sub> (190%) at the calyx synapses. Because the extent of p<sub>occ</sub> increase is much smaller than that of p<sub>v</sub> and multiple lines of evidence in our study support that the baseline p<sub>v</sub> is already saturated, we raised a possibility that an increase in p<sub>occ</sub> would primarily contribute to the unexpectedly low increase of EPSC at 2.5 mM [Ca<sub>2+</sub>]<sub>o</sub>. As mentioned above, our interpretation is also consistent with the EM study of Kusick et al. (2020). Nevertheless, the reduction of PPR at 2.5 mM Ca<sub>2+</sub> seems to support an increase in p<sub>v,</sub> arguing against this possibility. On the other hand, because p<sub>occ</sub> = k<sub>1</sub>/(k<sub>1</sub>+b<sub>1</sub>) under the simple vesicle refilling model (Fig. 3-S2Aa), a change in p<sub>occ</sub> should associate with changes in k<sub>1</sub> and/or b<sub>1</sub>. While PPR is always reduced by an increase in p<sub>v,</sub> the effects of refilling rate to PPR is complicated. For example, despite that EGTA-AM would not increase p<sub>v,</sub> it reduced PPR probably through reducing refilling rate (Fig. 2-S1). On the contrary, PDBu is thought to increase k<sub>1</sub> because it induces two-fold increase of p<sub>occ</sub> (Fig. 7L of Lin et al., 2025). Such a marked increase of p<sub>occ,</sub> rather than p<sub>v,</sub> seems to be responsible for the PDBu-induced marked reduction of PPR (Fig. 7I of Lin et al., 2025), because PDBu induced only a slight increase in p<sub>v</sub> (Fig. 7K of Lin et al., 2025). Therefore, the slight reduction of PPR is not contradictory to our interpretation that an increase in p<sub>occ</sub> might be responsible for the slight increase in EPSC induced by high [Ca<sup>2+</sup>]<sub>o</sub>.

      (4) The authors concede in the rebuttal that mean pv must be < 0.7, but I couldn't find any mention of this within the manuscript itself, nor any explanation for how the new estimate could be compatible with the value of > 0.99 in the section about failures.

      We have never stated in the rebuttal or elsewhere that the mean p<sub>v</sub> must be < 0.7. On the contrary, both of our manuscript and previous rebuttals consistently argued that the baseline p<sub>v</sub> is already saturated, based on our observations including low PPR, tight coupling, high double failure rate and the minimal effect of external Ca<sup>2+</sup> elevation.

      (5) Although not the main point, comparisons to synapses in other brain regions reported in other studies might not be accurate without directly matching experiments.

      Please understand that it not trivial to establish optimal experimental settings for studying other synapses using the same methods employed in the study. We think that it should be performed in a separate study. Furthermore, we have already shown in the manuscript that action potentials (APs) evoked by oChIEF activation occur in a physiologically natural manner, and the STP induced by these oChIEF-evoked APs is indistinguishable from the STP elicited by APs evoked by dual-patch electrical stimulation. Therefore, we believe that our use of optogenetic stimulation did not introduce any artificial bias in measuring STP.

      As it is, 2 of 8 synapses got weaker instead of stronger, hinting at possible rundown, but this cannot be assessed because reversibility was not evaluated. In addition, comparing axons with and without channel rhodopsins might be problematic because the channel rhodopsins might widen action potentials.

      We continuously monitored series resistance and baseline EPSC amplitude throughout the experiments. The figure below shows the mean time course of EPSCs at two different [Ca<sup>2+</sup>]<sub>o</sub>. As it shows, we observed no tendency for run-down of EPSCs during experiments. If any, such recordings were discarded from analysis. In addition, please understand that there is a substantial variance in the number of docked vesicles at both baseline and high external Ca<sup>2+</sup> (Lin et al., 2025; Kusick et al., 2020) as well as short-term dynamics of EPSCs at our synapses.

      Author response image 2.

      Time course of normalized amplitudes of the first EPSCs during paired-pulse stimulation at 20 ms ISI in control and in the elevated external Ca<sup>2+</sup> (n = 8).<br />

      (6) Perhaps authors could double check with Schotten et al about whether PDBu does/does not decrease the latency between osmotic shock and transmitter release. This might be an interesting discrepancy, but my understanding is that Schotten et al didn't acquire information about latency because of how the experiments were designed.

      Schotten et al. (2015) directly compared experimental and simulation data for hypertonicity-induced vesicle release. They showed a pronounced acceleration of the latency as the tonicity increases (Fig. 2-S2), but this tonicity-dependent acceleration was not reproduced by reducing the activation energy barrier for fusion (ΔEa) in their simulations (Fig. 2-S1). Thus, the authors mentioned that an unknown compensatory mechanism counteracting the osmotic perturbation might be responsible for the tonicity-dependent changes in the latency. Importantly, their modeling demonstrated that reducing ΔEa, which would correspond to increasing p<sub>v</sub> results in larger peak amplitudes and shorter time-to-peak, but did not accelerate the latency. Therefore, there is currently no direct explanation for the notion that PDBu or similar manipulations shorten latency via an increase in p<sub>v</sub>.

      (7) The authors state: "These data are difficult to reconcile with a model in which facilitation is mediated by Ca2+-dependent increases in pv." However, I believe that discarding the premise that depression is always caused by depletion would open up wide range of viable possibilities.

      We hope that Reviewer understands the reasons why we reached the conclusion that the baseline p<sub>v</sub> is saturated at our synapses. First of all, strong paired pulse depression (PPD) cannot be attributed to Ca<sup>2+</sup> channel inactivation because Ca<sup>2+</sup> influx at the axon terminal remained constant during 40 Hz train stimulation (Fig.2 -S2). Moreover, even if Ca<sup>2+</sup> channel inactivation is responsible for the strong PPD, this view cannot explain the delayed facilitation that emerges subsequent pulses (third EPSC and so on) in the 40 Hz train stimulation (Fig. 1-4), because Ca<sup>2+</sup> channel inactivation gradually accumulates during train stimulations as directly shown by Wykes et al. (2007) in chromaffin cells. Secondly, the strong PPD and very fast recovery from PPD indicates very fast refilling rate constant (k<sub>1</sub>). Under this high k<sub>1</sub>, the failure rates were best explained by p<sub>v</sub> close to unity. Thirdly, the extent of EPSC increase induced by high external Ca<sup>2+</sup> was much smaller than other synapses such as calyx synapses at which p<sub>v</sub> is not saturated (Lin et al., 2025), and rather similar to the increases in p<sub>occ</sub> estimated at calyx synapses or the EM study (Kusick et al., 2020; Lin et al., 2025).

      Reference

      Wykes et al. (2007). Differential regulation of endogenous N-and P/Q-type Ca<sup>2+</sup> channel inactivation by Ca<sup>2+</sup>/calmodulin impacts on their ability to support exocytosis in chromaffin cells. Journal of Neuroscience, 27(19), 5236-5248.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I continue to think that measuring changes in synaptic strength when raising extracellular Ca<sup>2+</sup> is a good experiment for evaluating the overfilling hypothesis. Future experiments would be better if the authors would include reversibility criteria to rule out rundown, etc. Also, comparisons to other types of synapses would be stronger if the same experimenter did the experiments at both types of synapses.

      We observed no systemic tendency for run-down of EPSCs during these experiments (Author response image 2). Furthermore, the observed variability is well within the expected variance range in the number of docked vesicles at both baseline and high external Ca²⁺ (Lin et al., 2025; Kusick et al., 2020) and reflects biological variability rather than experimental artifact. Therefore, we believe that additional reversibility experiments are not warranted. However, we are open to further discussion if the Reviewer has specific methodological concerns not resolved by our present data.

      For the second issue, as mentioned above, we think that studying at other synapse types should be done in a separate study.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The onus of making the revisions understandable to the reviewers lies with the authors. In its current form, how the authors have approached the review is hard to follow, in my opinion. Although the authors have taken a lot of effort in answering the questions posed by reviewers, parallel changes in the manuscript are not clearly mentioned. In many cases, the authors have acknowledged the criticism in response to the reviewer, but have not changed their narrative, particularly in the results section.

      We fully acknowledge your concern regarding the narrative linking EB-induced GluCl expression to JH biosynthesis and fecundity enhancement, particularly the need to address alternative interpretations of the data. Below, we outline the specific revisions made to address your feedback and ensure the manuscript’s narrative aligns more precisely with the experimental evidence:

      (1) Revised Wording in the Results Section

      To avoid overinterpretation of causality, we have modified the language in key sections of the Results (e.g., Figure 5 and related text):

      Original phrasing:

      “These results suggest that EB activates GluCl which induces JH biosynthesis and release, which in turn stimulates reproduction in BPH (Figure 5J).”

      Revised phrasing:

      “We also examined whether silencing Gluclα impacts the AstA/AstAR signaling pathway in female adults. Knock-down of Gluclα in female adults was found to have no impact on the expression of AT, AstA, AstB, AstCC, AstAR, and AstBR. However, the expression of AstCCC and AstCR was significantly upregulated in dsGluclα-injected insects (Figure 5-figure supplement 2A-H). Further studies are required to delineate the direct or indirect mechanisms underlying this effect of Gluclα-knockdown.” (line 643-649). And we have removed Figure 5J in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Expanded Discussion of Alternative Mechanisms

      In the Discussion section, we have incorporated a dedicated paragraph to explore alternative pathways and compensatory mechanisms:

      Key additions:

      “This EB action on GluClα expression is likely indirect, and we do not consider EB as transcriptional regulator of GluClα. Thus, the mechanism behind EB-mediated induction of GluClα remains to be determined. It is possible that prolonged EB exposure triggers feedback mechanisms (e.g. cellular stress responses) to counteract EB-induced GluClα dysfunction, leading to transcriptional upregulation of the channel. Hence, considering that EB exposure in our experiments lasts several days, these findings might represent indirect (or secondary) effects caused by other factors downstream of GluCl signaling that affect channel expression.” (line 837-845).

      (2) In the response to reviewers, the authors have mentioned line numbers in the main text where changes were made. But very frequently, those lines do not refer to the changes or mention just a subsection of changes done. As an example please see point 1 of Specific Points below. The problem is throughout the document making it very difficult to follow the revision and contributing to the point mentioned above.

      Thank you for highlighting this critical oversight. We sincerely apologize for the inconsistency in referencing line numbers and incomplete descriptions of revisions, which undoubtedly hindered your ability to track changes effectively. We have eliminated all vague or incomplete line number references from the response letter. Instead, revisions are now explicitly tied to specific sections, figures, or paragraphs.

      (3) The authors need to infer the performed experiments rationally without over interpretation. Currently, many of the claims that the authors are making are unsubstantiated. As a result of the first review process, the authors have acknowledged the discrepancies, but they have failed to alter their interpretations accordingly.

      We fully agree that overinterpretation of data undermines scientific rigor. In response to your feedback, we have systematically revised the manuscript to align claims strictly with experimental evidence and to eliminate unsubstantiated assertions. We sincerely apologize for the earlier overinterpretations and appreciate your insistence on precision. The revised manuscript now rigorously distinguishes between observations (e.g., EB-GluCl-JH correlations) and hypotheses (e.g., GluCl’s mechanistic role). By tempering causal language and integrating competing explanations, we aimed to present a more accurate and defensible narrative.

      SPECIFIC POINTS (to each question initially raised and their rebuttals)

      (1a) "Actually, there are many studies showing that insects treated with insecticides can increase the expression of target genes". Please note what is asked for is that the ligand itself induces the expression of its receptor. Of course, insecticide treatment will result in the changes expression of targets. Of all the evidences furnished in rebuttal, only Peng et al. 2017 fits the above definition. Even in this case, the accepted mode of action of chlorantraniliprole is by inducing structural change in ryanodine receptor. The observed induction of ryanodine receptor chlorantraniliprole can best be described as secondary effect. All others references do not really suffice the point asked for.

      We appreciate the reviewers’ suggestions for improving the manuscript. First, we have supplemented additional studies supporting the notion that " There are several studies showing that insects treated with insecticides display increases in the expression of target genes. For example, the relative expression level of the ryanodine receptor gene of the rice stem borer, Chilo suppressalis was increased 10-fold after treatment with chlorantraniliprole, an insecticide which targets the ryanodine receptor (Peng et al., 2017). In Drosophila, starvation (and low insulin) elevates the transcription level of the receptors of the neuropeptides short neuropeptide F and tachykinin (Ko et al., 2015; Root et al., 2011). In BPH, reduction in mRNA and protein expression of a nicotinic acetylcholine receptor α8 subunit is associated with resistance to imidacloprid (Zhang et al., 2015). Knockdown of the α8 gene by RNA interference decreased the sensitivity of N. lugens to imidacloprid (Zhang et al., 2015). Hence, the expression of receptor genes may be regulated by diverse factors, including insecticide exposure.” We have inserted text in lines 846-857 to elaborate on these possibilities.

      Second, we would like to reiterate our position: we have merely described this phenomenon, specifically that EB treatment increases GluClα expression. “This EB action on GluClα expression is likely indirect, and we do not consider EB as transcriptional regulator of GluClα. Thus, the mechanism behind EB-mediated induction of GluClα remains to be determined. It is possible that prolonged EB exposure triggers feedback mechanisms (e.g. cellular stress responses) to counteract EB-induced GluClα dysfunction, leading to transcriptional upregulation of the channel. Hence, considering that EB exposure in our experiments lasts several days, these findings might represent indirect (or secondary) effects caused by other factors downstream of GluCl signaling that affect channel expression.” We have inserted text in lines 837-845 to elaborate on these possibilities.

      Once again, we sincerely appreciate this discussion, which has provided us with a deeper understanding of this phenomenon.

      b. The authors in their rebuttal accepts that they do not consider EB to a transcriptional regulator of Gluclα and the induction of Gluclα as a result of EB can best be considered as a secondary effect. But that is not reflected in the manuscript, particularly in the result section. Current state of writing implies EB up regulation of Gluclα to an important event that contributes majorly to the hypothesis. So much so that they have retained the schematic diagram (Fig. 5J) where EB -> Gluclα is drawn. Even the heading of the subsection says "EB-enhanced fecundity in BPHs is dependent on its molecular target protein, the Gluclα channel". As mentioned in the general points, it is not enough to have a good rebuttal written to the reviewer, the parent manuscript needs to reflect on the changes asked for.

      Thank you for your comments. We have carefully addressed your suggestions and made corresponding revisions to the manuscript.

      We fully acknowledge the reviewer's valid concern. In this revised manuscript, “However, we do not propose that EB is a direct transcriptional regulator of Gluclα, since EB and other avermectins are known to alter the channel conformation and thus their function (Wolstenholme, 2012; Wu et al., 2017). Thus, it is likely that the observed increase in Gluclα transcipt is a secondary effect downstream of EB signaling.” (Line 625-629). We agree that the original presentation in the manuscript, particularly within the Results section, did not adequately reflect this nuance and could be misinterpreted as suggesting a direct regulatory role for EB on Gluclα transcription.

      Regarding Fig. 5J, we have removed the figure and all mentions of Fig. 5J and its legend in the revised manuscript.

      c. "We have inserted text on lines 738 - 757 to explain these possibilities." Not a single line in the section mentioned above discussed the topic in hand. This is serious undermining of the review process or carelessness to the extreme level.

      In the Results section, we have now added descriptions “Taken together, these results reveal that EB exposure is associated with an increase in JH titer and that this elevated JH signaling contributes to enhanced fecundity in BPH.” (line 375-377).

      For the figures, we have removed Fig. 4N and all mentions of Fig. 4N and its legend in the revised manuscript.

      Lastly, regarding the issue of locating specific lines, we deeply regret any inconvenience caused. Due to the track changes mode used during revisions, line numbers may have shifted, resulting in incorrect references. We sincerely apologize for this and have now corrected the line numbers.

      (2) The section written in rebuttal should be included in the discussion as well, explaining why authors think a nymphal treatment with JH may work in increasing fecundity of the adults. Also, the authors accept that EBs effect on JH titer in Indirect. The text of the manuscript, results section and figures should be reflective of that. It is NOT ok to accept that EB impacts JH titer indirectly in a rebuttal letter while still continuing to portray EB direct effect on JH titer. In terms of diagrams, authors cannot put a -> sign until and unless the effect is direct. This is an accepted norm in biological publications.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s valuable suggestions here. We have now carefully revised the manuscript to address all concerns, particularly regarding the mechanism linking nymphal EB exposure to adult fecundity and the indirect nature of EB’s effect on JH titers. Below are our point-by-point responses and corresponding manuscript changes. Revised text is clearly marked in the resubmitted manuscript.

      (1) Clarifying the mechanism linking nymphal EB treatment to adult fecundity:

      Reviewer concern: Explain why nymphal EB treatment increases adult fecundity despite undetectable EB residues in adults.

      Response & Actions Taken:

      We agree this requires explicit discussion. We now propose that nymphal EB exposure triggers developmental reprogramming (e.g., metabolic/epigenetic changes) that persist into adulthood, indirectly enhancing JH synthesis and fecundity. This is supported by two key findings:

      (1) No detectable EB residues in adults after nymphal treatment (new Figure 1–figure supplement 1C).

      (2) Increased adult weight and nutrient reserves (Figure 1–figure supplement 3E,F), suggesting altered resource allocation.

      Added to Discussion (Lines 793–803): Notably, after exposing fourth-instar BPH nymphs to EB, no EB residues were detected in the subsequent adult stage. This finding indicates that the EB-induced increase in adult fecundity is initiated during the nymphal stage and s manifests in adulthood - a mechanism distinct from the direct fecundity enhancement of fecundity observed when EB is applied to adults. We propose that sublethal EB exposure during critical nymphal stages may reprogram metabolic or endocrine pathways, potentially via insulin/JH crosstalk. For instance, increased nutrient storage (e.g., proteins, sugars; Figure 2–figure supplement 2) could enhance insulin signaling, which in turn promotes JH biosynthesis in adults (Ling and Raikhel, 2021; Mirth et al., 2014; Sheng et al., 2011). Future studies should test whether EB alters insulin-like peptide expression or signaling during development.

      (3) Emphasizing EB’s indirect effect on JH titers:Reviewer concern: The manuscript overstated EB’s direct effect on JH. Arrows in figures implied causality where only correlation exists.

      Response & Actions

      Taken:We fully agree. EB’s effect on JH is indirect and multifactorial (via AstA/AstAR suppression, GluCl modulation, and metabolic changes). We have:

      Removed oversimplified schematics (original Figures 3N, 4N, 5J).

      Revised all causal language (e.g., "EB increases JH" → "EB exposure is associated with increased circulating JH III "). (Line 739)

      Clarified in Results/Discussion that EB-induced JH changes are likely secondary to neuroendocrine disruption.

      Key revisions:

      Results (Lines 375–377):

      "Taken together, these results reveal that EB exposure is associated with an increase in JH titer and that JH signaling contributes to enhanced fecundity in BPH."

      Discussion (Lines 837–845):

      This EB action on GluClα expression is likely indirect, and we do not consider EB as transcriptional regulator of GluClα. Thus, the mechanism behind EB-mediated induction of GluClα remains to be determined. It is possible that prolonged EB exposure triggers feedback mechanisms (e.g. cellular stress responses) to counteract EB-induced GluClα dysfunction, leading to transcriptional upregulation of the channel. Hence, considering that EB exposure in our experiments lasts several days, these findings might represent indirect (or secondary) effects caused by other factors downstream of GluCl signaling that affect channel expression.

      a. Lines 281-285 as mentioned, does not carry the relevant information.

      Thank you for your careful review of our manuscript. We sincerely apologize for the confusion regarding line references in our previous response. Due to extensive revisions and tracked changes during the revision process, the line numbers shifted, resulting in incorrect citations for Lines 281–285. The correct location for the added results (EB-induced increase in mature eggs in adult ovaries) is now in lines 253-258: “We furthermore observed that EB treatment of female adults also increases the number of mature eggs in the ovary (Figure 2-figure supplement 1).”

      b. Lines 351-356 as mentioned, does not carry the relevant information. Lines 281-285 as mentioned, does not carry the relevant information.

      Thank you for your careful review of our manuscript. We sincerely apologize for the confusion regarding line references in our previous response. The correct location for the added results is now in lines 366-371: “We also investigated the effects of EB treatment on the JH titer of female adults. The data indicate that the JH titer was also significantly increased in the EB-treated female adults compared with controls (Figure 3-figure supplement 3A). However, again the steroid 20-hydroxyecdysone, was not significantly different between EB-treated BPH and controls (Figure 3-figure supplement 3B).”

      c. Lines 378-379 as mentioned, does not carry the relevant information. Lines 387-390 as mentioned, does not carry the relevant information.

      We sincerely apologize for the confusion regarding line references in our previous response.

      The correct location for the added results is now in lines 393-394: We furthermore found that EB treatment in female adults increases JHAMT expression (Figure 3-figure supplement 3C).

      The other correct location for the added results is now in lines 405-408: We found that Kr-h1 was significantly upregulated in the adults of EB-treated BPH at the 5M, 5L nymph and 4 to 5 DAE stages (4.7-fold to 27.2-fold) when 4th instar nymph or female adults were treated with EB (Figure 3H and Figure 3-figure supplement 3D)..

      (3) The writing quality is still extremely poor. It does not meet any publication standard, let alone elife.

      We fully understand your concerns and frustrations, and we sincerely apologize for the deficiencies in our writing quality, which did not meet the high standards expected by you and the journal. We fully accept your criticism regarding the writing quality and have rigorously revised the manuscript according to your suggestions.

      (4) I am confused whether Figure 2B was redone or just edited. Otherwise this seems acceptable to me.

      Regarding Fig. 2B, we have edited the text on the y-axis. The previous wording included the term “retention,” which may have caused misunderstanding for both the readers and yourself, leading to the perception of contradiction. We have now revised this wording to ensure accurate comprehension.

      (5) The rebuttal is accepted. However, still some of the lines mentioned does not hold relevant information.

      This error has been corrected.

      The correct location for the added results is now in lines 255-258 and lines 279-282: “Hence, although EB does not affect the normal egg developmental stages (see description in next section), our results suggest that EB treatment promotes oogenesis and, as a result the insects both produce more eggs in the ovary and a larger number of eggs are laid.” and “However, considering that the number of eggs laid by EB treated females was larger than in control females (Figure 1 and Figure 1-figure supplement 1), our data indicates that EB treatment of BPH can both promote both oogenesis and oviposition.”

      (6) Thank you for the clarification. Although now discussed extensively in discussion section, the nuances of indirect effect and minimal change in expression should also be reflected in the result section text. This is to ensure that readers have clear idea about content of the paper.

      Corrected. To ensure readers gain a clear understanding of our data, we have briefly presented these discussions in the Results section. Please see line 397-402: The levels of met mRNA slightly increased in EB-treated BPH at the 5M and 5L instar nymph and 1 to 5 DAE adult stages compared to controls (1.7-fold to 2.9-fold) (Figure 3G). However, it should be mentioned that JH action does not result in an increase of Met. Thus, it is possible that other factors (indirect effects), induced by EB treatment cause the increase in the mRNA expression level of Met.

      (7) As per the author's interpretation, it becomes critical to quantitate the amount of EB present at the adult stages after a 4th instar exposure to it. Only this experiment will unambiguously proof the authors claim. Also, since they have done adult insect exposure to EB, such experiments should be systematically performed for as many sections as possible. Don't just focus on few instances where reviewers have pointed out the issue.

      Thank you for raising this critical point. To address this concern, we have conducted new supplementary experiments. The new experimental results demonstrate that residual levels of emamectin benzoate (EB) in adult-stage brown planthoppers (BPH) were below the instrument detection limit following treatment of 4th instar nymphs with EB. Line 172-184: “To determine whether EB administered during the fourth-instar larval stage persists as residues in the adult stage, we used HPLC-MS/MS to quantify the amount of EB present at the adult stage after exposing 4th-instar nymphs to this compound. However, we found no detectable EB residues in the adult stage following fourth-instar nymphal treatment (Figure 1-figure supplement 1C). This suggests that the mechanism underlying the increased fecundity of female adults induced by EB treatment of nymphs may differ from that caused by direct EB treatment of female adults. Combined with our previous observation that EB treatment significantly increased the body weight of adult females (Figure 1—figure supplement 3E and F), a possible explanation for this phenomenon is that EB may enhance food intake in BPH, potentially leading to elevated production of insulin-like peptides and thus increased growth. Increased insulin signaling could potentially also stimulate juvenile hormone (JH) biosynthesis during the adult stage (Badisco et al., 2013).”

      (8) Thank you for the revision. Lines 725-735 as mentioned, does not carry the relevant information. However, since the authors have decided to remove this systematically from the manuscript, discussion on this may not be required.

      Thank you for identifying the limited relevance of the content in Lines 725–735 of the original manuscript. As recommended, we have removed this section in the revised version to improve logical coherence and maintain focus on the core findings.

      (9) Normally, dsRNA would last for some time in the insect system and would down-regulate any further induction of target genes by EB. I suggest the authors to measure the level of the target genes by qPCR in KD insects before and after EB treatment to clear the confusion and unambiguously demonstrate the results. Please Note- such quantifications should be done for all the KD+EB experiments. Additionally, citing few papers where such a rescue effect has been demonstrated in closely related insect will help in building confidence.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion to clarify the interaction between RNAi-mediated gene knockdown (KD) and EB treatment. To address this, we performed additional experiments measuring Kr-h1 expression via qPCR in dsKr-h1-injected insects before and after EB exposure.

      The results (now Figure 3–figure supplement 4) show that:

      (1) EB did not rescue *Kr-h1* suppression at 24h post-treatment (*p* > 0.05).

      (2) Partial recovery of fecundity occurred later (Figure 3M), likely due to:

      a) Degradation of dsRNA over time, reducing KD efficacy (Liu et al., 2010).

      b) Indirect effects of EB (e.g., hormonal/metabolic reprogramming) compensating for residual Kr-h1 suppression.

      Please see line 441-453: “Next, we investigated whether EB treatment could rescue the dsRNA-mediated gene silencing effect. To address this, we selected the Kr-h1 gene and analyzed its expression levels after EB treatment. Our results showed that Kr-h1 expression was suppressed by ~70% at 72 h post-dsRNA injection. However, EB treatment did not significantly rescue Kr-h1 expression in gene knock down insects (*p* > 0.05) at 24h post-EB treatment (Figure 3-figure supplement 4). While dsRNA-mediated Kr-h1 suppression was robust initially, its efficacy may decline during prolonged experiments. This aligns with reports in BPH, where effects of RNAi gradually diminish beyond 7 days post-injection (Liu et al., 2010a). The late-phase fecundity increase might reflect partial Kr-h1 recovery due to RNAi degradation, allowing residual EB to weakly stimulate reproduction. In addition, the physiological impact of EB (e.g., neurotoxicity, hormonal modulation) could manifest via compensatory feedback loops or metabolic remodeling.”

      (10) Not a very convincing argument. Besides without a scale bar, it is hard for the reviewers to judge the size of the organism. Whole body measurements of JH synthesis enzymes will remain as a quite a drawback for the paper.

      In response to your suggestion, we have also included images with scale bars (see next Figure 1). The images show that the head region is difficult to separate from the brown thoracic sclerite region. Furthermore, the anatomical position of the Corpora Allata in brown planthoppers has never been reported, making dissection uncertain and highly challenging. To address this, we are now attempting to use Drosophila as a model to investigate how EB regulates JH synthesis and reproduction.

      Author response image 1.<br /> This illustration provides a visual representation of the brown planthopper (BPH), a major rice pest.<br />

      Figure 1. This illustration provides a visual representation of the brown planthopper (BPH), a major rice pest.).

      (11) "The phenomenon reported was specific to BPH and not found in other insects. This limits the implications of the study". This argument still holds. Combined with extreme species specificity, the general effect that EB causes brings into question the molecular specificity that the authors claim about the mode of action.

      We acknowledge that the specificity of the phenomenon to BPH may limit its broader implications, but we would like to emphasize that this study provides important insights into the unique biological mechanisms in BPH, a pest of significant agricultural importance. The molecular specificity we described in the manuscript is based on rigorous experimental evidence. We believe that it contributes to valuable knowledge to understand the interaction of external factors such as EB and BPH and resurgence of pests. We hope that this study will inspire further research into the mechanisms underlying similar phenomena in other insects, thereby broadening our understanding of insect biology. Since EB also has an effect on fecundity in Drosophila, albeit opposite to that in BPHs (Fig. 1 suppl. 2), it seems likely that EB actions may be of more general interest in insect reproduction.

      (12) The authors have added a few lines in the discussion but it does not change the overall design of the experiments. In this scenario, they should infer the performed experiments rationally without over interpretation. Currently, many of the claims that the authors are making are unsubstantiated. As a result of the first review process, the authors have acknowledged the discrepancies, but they have failed to alter their interpretations accordingly.

      We appreciate your concern regarding the experimental design and the need for rational inference without overinterpretation. In response, we would like to clarify that our discussion is based on the experimental data we have collected. We acknowledge that our study focuses on BPH and the specific effects of EB, and while we agree that broader generalizations require further research, we believe the new findings we present are valid and contribute to the understanding of this specific system.

      We also acknowledge the discrepancies you mentioned and have carefully considered your suggestions. In this revised version, we believe our interpretations are reasonable and consistent with the data, and we have adjusted our discussion to better reflect the scope of our findings. We hope that these revisions address your concerns. Thank you again for your constructive feedback.

      ADDITIONAL POINTS

      (1) Only one experiment was performed with Abamectin. No titration for the dosage were done for this compound, or at least not provided in the manuscript. Inclusion of this result will confuse readers. While removing this result does not impact the manuscript at all. My suggestion would be to remove this result.

      We acknowledge that the abamectin experiment lacks dose-titration details and that its standalone presentation could lead to confusion. However, we respectfully request to retain these results for the following reasons:

      Class-Specific Mechanism Validation:

      Abamectin and emamectin benzoate (EB) are both macrocyclic lactones targeting glutamate-gated chloride channels (GluCls). The observed similarity in their effects on BPH fecundity (e.g., Figure 1—figure supplement 1B) supports the hypothesis that GluCl modulation, rather than compound-specific off-target effects, drives the reproductive enhancement. This consistency strengthens the mechanistic argument central to our study.

      (2) The section "The impact of EB treatment on BPH reproductive fitness" is poorly described. This needs elaboration. A line or two should be included to describe why the parameters chosen to decide reproductive fitness were selected in the first place. I see that the definition of brachypterism has undergone a change from the first version of the manuscript. Can you provide an explanation for that? Also, there is no rationale behind inclusion of statements on insulin at this stage. The authors have not investigated insulin. Including that here will confuse readers. This can be added in the discussion though.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We have added an explanation regarding the primary consideration of evaluating reproductive fitness. In the interaction between sublethal doses of insecticides and pests, reproductive fitness is a key factor, as it accurately reflects the potential impact of insecticides on pest control in the field. Among the reproductive fitness parameters, factors such as female Nilaparvata lugens body weight, lifespan, and brachypterous ratio (as short-winged N. lugens exhibit higher oviposition rates than long-winged individuals) are critical determinants of reproductive success. Therefore, we comprehensively assessed the effects of EB on these parameters to elucidate the primary mechanism by which EB influences reproduction. We sincerely appreciate your constructive feedback.

      (3) "EB promotes ovarian maturation in BPH" this entire section needs to be rewritten and attention should be paid to the sequence of experiments described.

      Thank you for your suggestion. Based on your recommendation, we have rewritten this section (lines 267–275) and adjusted the sequence of experimental descriptions to improve the structural clarity of this part.

      (4) Figure 3N is outright wrong and should be removed or revised.

      In accordance with your recommendation, we have removed the figure.

      (5) When you are measuring hormonal titers, it is important to mention explicitly whether you are measuring hemolymph titer or whole body.

      We believe we have explicitly stated in the Methods section (line 1013) that we measured whole-body hormone titers. However, we now added this information to figure legends.

      (6)  EB induces JH biosynthesis through the peptidergic AstA/AstAR signaling pathway- this section needs attention at multiple points. Please check.

      We acknowledge that direct evidence for EB-AstA/AstAR interaction is limited and have framed these findings as a hypothesis for future validation.

      References

      Liu, S., Ding, Z., Zhang, C., Yang, B., Liu, Z., 2010. Gene knockdown by intro-thoracic injection of double-stranded RNA in the brown planthopper, Nilaparvata lugens. Insect Biochem. Mol. Biol. 40, 666-671

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      In this work, Rios-Jimenez and Zomer et al have developed a 'zero-code' accessible computational framework (BEHAV3D-Tumour Profiler) designed to facilitate unbiased analysis of Intravital imaging (IVM) data to investigate tumour cell dynamics (via the tool's central 'heterogeneity module' ) and their interactions with the tumour microenvironment (via the 'large-scale phenotyping' and 'small-scale phenotyping' modules). A key strength is that it is designed as an open-source modular Jupyter Notebook with a user-friendly graphical user interface and can be implemented with Google Colab, facilitating efficient, cloud-based computational analysis at no cost. In addition, demo datasets are available on the authors GitHub repository to aid user training and enhance the usability of the developed pipeline.

      To demonstrate the utility of BEHAV3D-TP, they apply the pipeline to timelapse IVM imaging datasets to investigate the in vivo migratory behaviour of fluorescently labelled DMG cells in tumour bearing mice. Using the tool's 'heterogeneity module' they were able to identify distinct single-cell behavioural patterns (based on multiple parameters such as directionality, speed, displacement, distance from tumour edge) which was used to group cells into distinct categories (e.g. retreating, invasive, static, erratic). They next applied the framework's 'large-scale phenotyping' and 'small-scale phenotyping' modules to investigate whether the tumour microenvironment (TME) may influence the distinct migratory behaviours identified. To achieve this, they combine TME visualisation in vivo during IVM (using fluorescent probes to label distinct TME components) or ex vivo after IVM (by large-scale imaging of harvested, immunostained tumours) to correlate different tumour behavioural patterns with the composition of the TME. They conclude that this tool has helped reveal links between TME composition (e.g. degree of vascularisation, presence of tumour-associated macrophages) and the invasiveness and directionality of tumour cells, which would have been challenging to identify when analysing single kinetic parameters in isolation.

      While the analysis provides only preliminary evidence in support of the authors conclusions on DMG cell migratory behaviours and their relationship with components of the tumour microenvironment, conclusions are appropriately tempered in the absence of additional experiments and controls.

      The authors also evaluated the BEHAV3D TP heterogeneity module using available IVM datasets of distinct breast cancer cell lines transplanted in vivo, as well as healthy mammary epithelial cells to test its usability in non-tumour contexts where the migratory phenotypes of cells may be more subtle. This generated data is consistent with that produced during the original studies, as well as providing some additional (albeit preliminary) insights above that previously reported. Collectively, this provides some confidence in BEHAV3D TP's ability to uncover complex, multi-parametric cellular behaviours that may be missed using traditional approaches.

      While the tool does not facilitate the extraction of quantitative kinetic cellular parameters (e.g. speed, directionality, persistence and displacement) from intravital images, the authors have developed their tool to facilitate the integration of other data formats generated by open-source Fiji plugins (e.g. TrackMate, MTrackJ, ManualTracking) which will help ensure its accessibility to a broader range of researchers. Overall, this computational framework appears to represent a useful and comparatively user-friendly tool to analyse dynamic multi-parametric data to help identify patterns in cell migratory behaviours, and to assess whether these behaviours might be influenced by neighbouring cells and structures in their microenvironment.

      When combined with other methods, it therefore has the potential to be a valuable addition to a researcher's IVM analysis 'tool-box'.

      We thank the reviewer for carefully considering our manuscript and providing constructive comments. We appreciate the recognition of BEHAV3D-TP’s user-friendliness, modular design, and ability to link cell behavior with the tumor microenvironment. In the future, we plan to extend the tool to incorporate segmentation and tracking modules, once we have approaches that are broadly applicable or allow for personalized model training, further enhancing its utility for the community.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors produce a new tool, BEHAV3D to analyse tracking data and to integrate these analyses with large and small scale architectural features of the tissue. This is similar to several other published methods to analyse spatio-temporal data, however, the connection to tissue features is a nice addition, as is the lack of requirement for coding. The tool is then used to analyse tracking data of tumour cells in diffuse midline glioma. They suggest 7 clusters exist within these tracks and that they differ spatially. They ultimately suggest that these behaviours occur in distinct spatial areas as determined by CytoMAP.

      Strengths:

      - The tool appears relatively user-friendly and is open source. The combination with CytoMAP represents a nice option for researchers.

      - The identification of associations between cell track phenotype and spatial features is exciting and the diffuse midline glioma data nicely demonstrates how this could be used.

      We thank the reviewer for their careful reading and thoughtful comments. Feedback from all revision rounds has helped us clarify key points and improve the manuscript, and we are grateful for the positive remarks regarding our application to diffuse midline glioma and the potential of the tool to enable new biological insights.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      The manuscript by Rios-Jimenez developed a software tool, BEHAV3D Tumor Profiler, to analyze 3D intravital imaging data and identify distinctive tumor cell migratory phenotypes based on the quantified 3D image data. Moreover, the heterogeneity module in this software tool can correlate the different cell migration phenotypes with variable features of the tumor microenvironment. Overall, this is a useful tool for intravital imaging data analysis and its open-source nature makes it accessible to all interested users.

      Strengths:

      An open-source software tool that can quantify cell migratory dynamics from intravital imaging data and identify distinctive migratory phenotypes that correlate with variable features of the tumor microenvironment.

      Weaknesses:

      Motility is the main tumor cell feature analyzed in the study together with some other tumor-intrinsic features, such as morphology. However, these features are insufficient to characterize and identify the heterogeneity of the tumor cell population that impacts their behaviors in the complex tumor microenvironment (TME). For instance, there are important non-tumor cell types in the TME, and the interaction dynamics of tumor cells with other cell types, e.g., fibroblasts and distinct immune cells, play a crucial role in regulating tumor behaviors. BEHAV3D-TP focuses on analysis of tumor-alone features, and cannot be applied to analyze important cell-cell interaction dynamics in 3D.

      We thank the reviewer for their careful assessment and encouraging remarks regarding BEHAV3D-TP.

      Regarding the concern about the tool’s current focus on motility features, we would like to clarify again that BEHAV3D-TP is designed to be highly flexible and extensible. Users can incorporate a wide range of features—including dynamic, morphological, and spatial parameters—into their analyses. In the latest revision, we have make this even more explicit by explaining that the feature selection interface allows users to either (i) directly select them for clustering or (ii) select features for correlation with clusters (See Small scale phenotyping module section in Methods).

      Importantly, while our current analysis emphasizes clustering based on dynamic behaviors, Figure 4 demonstrates that these behavioral clusters are associated at the single-cell level with distinct proximities to key TME components, such as TAMMs and blood vessels. These spatial interaction features could also have been included in the clustering itself—creating dynamic-spatial clusters—but we deliberately chose not to do so. This decision was guided by established principles of feature selection: including features with unknown or potentially irrelevant variability can introduce noise and obscure biologically meaningful patterns, ultimately reducing the clarity and interpretability of the resulting clusters. Instead, we adopted a two-step approach—first identifying clusters based on core dynamic features, then examining their relationships with spatial and interaction metrics. This allowed us to reveal meaningful associations of particular cell behavior such as the invading cluster in proximity of TAMMs without overfitting or complicating the clustering model.

      To address the reviewer’s point in the latest revision round, we have updated the Small-scale phenotyping module  to highlight the possibility of including spatial interaction features with various TME cell types. We also revised the manuscript text and Figure 1 to clarify that these environmental features can be used both upstream as clustering input (Option 1) and for downstream analysis (Option 2), depending on the user’s experimental goals. Attached to this rebuttal letter, we also provide an additional figure illustrating these options in the feature selection panels of the Colab notebook.

      In summary, while the clustering presented in this study is based on dynamic parameters, BEHAV3D-TP fully supports the integration of interaction features and other non-motility descriptors. This modularity enables users to customize their analysis pipelines according to specific biological questions, including those involving cell–cell interactions and spatial dynamics within the TME.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      Intravital microscopy (IVM) is a powerful tool that facilitates live imaging of individual cells over time in vivo in their native 3D tissue environment. Extracting and analysing multi-parametric data from IVM images however is challenging, particularly for researchers with limited programming and image analysis skills. In this work, RiosJimenez and Zomer et al have developed a 'zero-code' accessible computational framework (BEHAV3D-Tumour Profiler) designed to facilitate unbiased analysis of IVM data to investigate tumour cell dynamics (via the tool's central 'heterogeneity module' ) and their interactions with the tumour microenvironment (via the 'large-scale phenotyping' and 'small-scale phenotyping' modules). It is designed as an open-source modular Jupyter Notebook with a user-friendly graphical user interface and can be implemented with Google Colab, facilitating efficient, cloud-based computational analysis at no cost. Demo datasets are also available on the authors GitHub repository to aid user training and enhance the usability of the developed pipeline. 

      To demonstrate the utility of BEHAV3D-TP, they apply the pipeline to timelapse IVM imaging datasets to investigate the in vivo migratory behaviour of fluorescently labelled DMG cells in tumour bearing mice. Using the tool's 'heterogeneity module' they were able to identify distinct single-cell behavioural patterns (based on multiple parameters such as directionality, speed, displacement, distance from tumour edge) which was used to group cells into distinct categories (e.g. retreating, invasive, static, erratic). They next applied the framework's 'large-scale phenotyping' and 'small-scale phenotyping' modules to investigate whether the tumour microenvironment (TME) may influence the distinct migratory behaviours identified. To achieve this, they combine TME visualisation in vivo during IVM (using fluorescent probes to label distinct TME components) or ex vivo after IVM (by large-scale imaging of harvested, immunostained tumours) to correlate different tumour behavioural patterns with the composition of the TME. They conclude that this tool has helped reveal links between TME composition (e.g. degree of vascularisation, presence of tumour-associated macrophages) and the invasiveness and directionality of tumour cells, which would have been challenging to identify when analysing single kinetic parameters in isolation. 

      The authors also evaluated the BEHAV3D TP heterogeneity module using available IVM datasets of distinct breast cancer cell lines transplanted in vivo, as well as healthy mammary epithelial cells to test its usability in non-tumour contexts where the migratory phenotypes of cells may be more subtle. This generated data is consistent with that produced during the original studies, as well as providing some additional (albeit preliminary) insights above that previously reported. Collectively, this provides some confidence in BEHAV3D TP's ability to uncover complex, multi-parametric cellular behaviours that may be missed using traditional approaches. 

      Overall, this computational framework appears to represent a useful and comparatively user-friendly tool to analyse dynamic multi-parametric data to help identify patterns in cell migratory behaviours, and to assess whether these behaviours might be influenced by neighbouring cells and structures in their microenvironment. When combined with other methods, it therefore has the potential to be a valuable addition to a researcher's IVM analysis 'tool-box'. 

      Strengths: 

      •  Figures are clearly presented, and the manuscript is easy to follow. 

      •  The pipeline appears to be intuitive and user-friendly for researchers with limited computational expertise. A detailed step-by-step video and demo datasets are also included to support its uptake. 

      •  The different computational modules have been tested using relevant datasets, including imaging data of normal and tumour cells in vivo. 

      •  All code is open source, and the pipeline can be implemented with Google Colab. 

      •  The tool combines multiple dynamic parameters extracted from timelapse IVM images to identify single-cell behavioural patterns and to cluster cells into distinct groups sharing similar behaviours, and provides avenues to map these onto in vivo or ex vivo imaging data of the tumour microenvironment 

      Weaknesses: 

      •  The tool does not facilitate the extraction of quantitative kinetic cellular parameters (e.g. speed, directionality, persistence and displacement) from intravital images. To use the tool researchers must first extract dynamic cellular parameters from their IVM datasets using other software including Imaris, which is expensive and therefore not available to all. Nonetheless, the authors have developed their tool to facilitate the integration of other data formats generated by open-source Fiji plugins (e.g. TrackMate, MTrackJ, ManualTracking) which will help ensure its accessibility to a broader range of researchers. 

      •  The analysis provides only preliminary evidence in support of the authors conclusions on DMG cell migratory behaviours and their relationship with components of the tumour microenvironment. The authors acknowledge this however, and conclusions are appropriately tempered in the absence of additional experiments and controls. 

      We thank the reviewer for their thorough and constructive assessment of our work and are pleased that the accessibility, functionality, and potential impact of BEHAV3DTumour Profiler were well received. We particularly appreciate the acknowledgment of the tool’s ease of use for researchers with limited computational expertise, the clarity of the manuscript, and the relevance of our approach for identifying multi-parametric migratory behaviours and their correlation with the tumour microenvironment.

      Regarding the weaknesses raised:

      (1) Lack of built-in tracking and kinetic parameter extraction – As noted in our initial revision, while we agree that integrating open-source tracking and segmentation functionality could be valuable, it is beyond the scope of the current work. Our tool is designed to focus specifically on downstream analysis of already extracted kinetic data, addressing a gap in post-processing tools for exploring complex migratory behaviour and spatial correlations. Since different experimental systems often require tailored imaging and segmentation pipelines, we believe that decoupling tracking from the downstream analysis can actually be a strength, offering greater versatility. Researchers can use their preferred or most appropriate tracking software—whether proprietary or opensource—and then analyze the resulting data with BEHAV3D-TP. To support this, we ensured compatibility with widely used tools including open-source Fiji plugins (e.g., TrackMate, MTrackJ, ManualTracking), and we also cited several relevant studies and that address the upstream processing steps. Importantly, the main aim of our tool is to fill the gap in post-tracking analysis, enabling quantitative interpretation and pattern recognition that has until now required substantial coding effort or custom solutions.

      (2) Preliminary nature of the biological conclusions – We fully agree with this assessment and have explicitly acknowledged this limitation in the manuscript. Our aim was to demonstrate the utility of BEHAV3D-TP in uncovering heterogeneity and spatial associations in vivo, while encouraging further hypothesis-driven studies using complementary biological approaches. We are grateful that the reviewer recognizes the cautious interpretation of our results and their added value beyond single-parameter analysis.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      The authors produce a new tool, BEHAV3D to analyse tracking data and to integrate these analyses with large and small scale architectural features of the tissue. This is similar to several other published methods to analyse spatio-temporal data, however, the connection to tissue features is a nice addition, as is the lack of requirement for coding. The tool is then used to analyse tracking data of tumour cells in diffuse midline glioma. They suggest 7 clusters exist within these tracks and that they differ spatially. They ultimately suggest that there these behaviours occur in distinct spatial areas as determined by CytoMAP. 

      Strengths: 

      - The tool appears relatively user-friendly and is open source. The combination with CytoMAP represents a nice option for researchers. 

      - The identification of associations between cell track phenotype and spatial features is exciting and the diffuse midline glioma data nicely demonstrates how this could be used. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The revision has dealt with many concerns, however, the statistics generated by the process are still flawed. While the statistics have been clarified within the legends and this is a great improvement in terms of clarity the underlying assumptions of the tests used are violated. The problem is that individual imaging positions or tracks are treated as independent and then analysed by ANOVA. As separate imaging positions within the same mouse are not independent, nor are individual cells within a single mouse, this makes the statistical analyses inappropriate. For a deeper analysis of this that is feasible within a review please see Lord, Samuel J., et al. "SuperPlots: Communicating reproducibility and variability in cell biology." The Journal of cell biology 219.6 (2020): e202001064. Ultimately, while this is a neat piece of software facilitating the analysis of complex data, the fact that it will produce flawed statistical analysis is a major problem. This problem is compounded by the fact that much imaging analysis has been analysed in this inappropriate manner in the past, leading to issues of interpretation and ultimately reproducibility. 

      We thank the reviewer for their careful reading and thoughtful feedback. We are encouraged by the recognition of BEHAV3D-TP’s ease of use, open-source accessibility, and the value of integrating cell behaviour with spatial features of the tissue. We appreciate the positive remarks regarding our application to diffuse midline glioma (DMG) and the potential for the tool to enable new biological insights.

      We also appreciate the reviewer’s continued concern regarding the statistical treatment of the data. While we agree with the broader principle that care must be taken to avoid violating assumptions of independence, we respectfully disagree that all instances where individual tracks or imaging positions are used constitute flawed analysis. Importantly, our work is centered on characterizing heterogeneity at the single-cell level in distinct TME regions. Therefore, in certain cases—especially when comparing distinct behavioral subtypes across varying TME environments and multiple mice—it is appropriate to treat individual imaging positions as independent units. This approach is particularly relevant given our findings that large-scale TME regions differ across positions. When analyzing features such as the percentage of DMG cells in proximity to TAMMs, averaging per mouse would obscure these regional differences and reduce the resolution of biologically meaningful variation.

      To address this concern further, we have revised the figure legends, main text, and documentation, carefully considering the appropriate statistical unit for each analysis. As detailed below, we used mouse-level aggregation where the experimental question required inter-mouse reproducibility, and a position-based approach where the aim was to explore intra-tumoral heterogeneity.

      Figure 3d and Supplementary Figure 5d: In this analysis, we treated imaging positions as independent units because our data specifically demonstrate that, within individual mice, different positions correspond to distinct large-scale tumor microenvironment phenotypes. Therefore, averaging across the whole mouse would obscure these important spatial differences and not accurately reflect the heterogeneity we aim to characterize.

      Figure 4c-e; Supplementary Figure 6d: While our initial aim was to highlight single-cell variability, we acknowledge that the original presentation may have been misleading. In the revised manuscript, we have updated the graphs for greater clarity. To quantify how often tumor cells of each behavioral type are located near TAMMs (Fig. 4c) or blood vessels (Fig. 4e), we now calculate the percentage of tumor cells "close" to environmental feature per behavioral cluster within each imaging position. This classification is based on the distance to the TME feature of interest and is detailed in the “Large-scale phenotyping” section of the Methods. For the number of SR101 objects in a 30um radius we averaged per position.

      We treated individual imaging positions as the units of analysis rather than averaging per mouse, as our data (see Figure 2) show that positions vary in their TME phenotypes—such as Void, TAMM/Oligo, and TAMM/Vascularized—as well as in the number of TAMMs, SR101 cells or blood vessels per position. These differences are biologically meaningful and relevant to the quantification that we performed – percentage of tumor cell in close proximity to distinct TME features.

      To account for inter-mouse and TME region variability, we applied a linear mixedeffects model with both mouse and TME class included as random effects.

      Supplementary Figure 3d: Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have averaged the distance to the 3 closest GBM neighbours per mouse, treating each mouse as an independent unit for comparison across distinct GBM morphodynamic clusters. To account for inter-mouse variability when assessing statistical significance, we employed a linear mixed model with mouse included as a random effect. 

      Distance to 3 neighbours is a feature not used in the clustering, thus variability between mice can be more pronounced—for example, due to differences in tumor compactness or microenvironment structure across individual mice. To appropriately account for this, mouse was included as a random effect in the model.

      Supplementary Figure 4c: Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we averaged cell speed per mouse, treating each mouse as an independent unit for comparison across distinct DMG behavioral clusters. Statistical significance was assessed using ANOVA followed by Tukey’s post hoc test. When comparing cell speed, which is a feature used in the clustering process, inter-mouse variability was already addressed during clustering itself. Therefore, in the downstream analysis of this cluster-derived feature, it is appropriate to treat each mouse as an independent unit without including mouse as a random effect.

      Supplementary Figure 5e-g: Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we averaged cell speed per mouse, treating each mouse as an independent unit for comparison across distinct DMG behavioral clusters. Statistical significance was assessed using ANOVA followed by Tukey’s post hoc test.

      Supplementary Figure 6c: Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we averaged cell distance to the 10 closest DMG neighbours per mouse, treating each mouse as an independent unit for comparison across distinct DMG behavioral clusters. To account for inter-mouse variability, we used a linear mixed model with mouse included as a random effect.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review): 

      The manuscript by Rios-Jimenez developed a software tool, BEHAV3D Tumor Profiler, to analyze 3D intravital imaging data and identify distinctive tumor cell migratory phenotypes based on the quantified 3D image data. Moreover, the heterogeneity module in this software tool can correlate the different cell migration phenotypes with variable features of the tumor microenvironment. Overall, this is a useful tool for intravital imaging data analysis and its open-source nature makes it accessible to all interested users. 

      Strengths: 

      An open-source software tool that can quantify cell migratory dynamics from intravital imaging data and identify distinctive migratory phenotypes that correlate with variable features of the tumor microenvironment. 

      Weaknesses: 

      Motility is only one tumor cell feature and is probably not sufficient to characterize and identify the heterogeneity of the tumor cell population that impacts their behaviors in the complex tumor microenvironment (TME). For instance, there are important nontumor cell types in the TME, and the interaction dynamics of tumor cells with other cell types, e.g., fibroblasts and distinct immune cells, play a crucial role in regulating tumor behaviors. BEHAV3D-TP focuses on only motility feature analysis, and cannot be applied to analyze other tumor cell dynamic features or cell-cell interaction dynamics. 

      Regarding the concern about the tool’s current focus on motility features, we would like to clarify that BEHAV3D-TP is designed to be highly flexible and extensible. As described in our first revision, users can incorporate a wide range of features—including dynamic, morphological, and spatial parameters—into their analyses. In the current revision, we have make this even more explicit by explaining that the feature selection interface allows users to either (i) directly select them for clustering or (ii) select features for correlation with clusters (See Small scale phenotyping module section in Methods and Rebuttal Figure).

      Importantly, while our current analysis emphasizes clustering based on dynamic behaviors, Figure 4 demonstrates that these behavioral clusters are associated at the single-cell level with distinct proximities to key TME components, such as TAMMs and blood vessels. These spatial interaction features could also have been included in the clustering itself—creating dynamic-spatial clusters—but we deliberately chose not to do so. This decision was guided by established principles of feature selection: including features with unknown or potentially irrelevant variability can introduce noise and obscure biologically meaningful patterns, ultimately reducing the clarity and interpretability of the resulting clusters. Instead, we adopted a two-step approach—first identifying clusters based on core dynamic features, then examining their relationships with spatial and interaction metrics. This allowed us to reveal meaningful associations of particular cell behavior such as the invading cluster in proximity of TAMMs without overfitting or complicating the clustering model.

      To further address the reviewer’s point, we have updated the Small-scale phenotyping module  to highlight the possibility of including spatial interaction features with various TME cell types. We also revised the manuscript text and Figure 1 to clarify that these environmental features can be used both upstream as clustering input (Option 1) and for downstream analysis (Option 2), depending on the user’s experimental goals. Author response image 1 illustrates these options in the feature selection panels of the Colab notebook.

      Author response image 1.

      (a) In the small-scale phenotyping module, microenvironmental factors (MEFs) detected in the segmented IVM movies are identified and their coordinates imported. From here, there are two options: (b) include the relationship to these MEFs as a feature for clustering, or (c) exclude this relationship and instead correlate MEFs with cell behavior to assess potential spatial associations.<br />

      In summary, while the clustering presented in this study is based on dynamic parameters, BEHAV3D-TP fully supports the integration of interaction features and other non-motility descriptors. This modularity enables users to customize their analysis pipelines according to specific biological questions, including those involving cell–cell interactions and spatial dynamics within the TME.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      If the software were adjusted to produce analyses following best practices in the field as outlined in Lord, Samuel J., et al. "SuperPlots: Communicating reproducibility and variability in cell biology." The Journal of cell biology 219.6 (2020): e202001064. this could be a helpful piece of software. The major current issue would be that it democratises the ability to analyse complex imaging data, allowing non-experts to carry out these analyses but misleads them and encourages poor statistical practice. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion and the reference to best practices outlined in Lord et al., 2020. As discussed in detail in our point-by-point response to Reviewer #2, we have revised several figures to enhance clarity and statistical rigor, including Figure 4c,e; Supplementary Figures 3d, 4c, 5e–g, and 6c–d. Specifically, we adjusted how data are summarized and displayed—averaging per mouse where appropriate and clarifying the statistical methods used. Where imaging positions were retained as the unit of analysis, this decision was grounded in the biological relevance of intra-mouse spatial heterogeneity (as demonstrated in Figure 2). Additionally, we applied linear mixed-effects models in cases where inter-mouse or inter-Large scale TME regions variability needed to be accounted for. We believe these changes address the core concern about reproducibility and statistical interpretation while preserving the biological insights captured by our approach.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Reviewer 1:

      We thank Reviewer 1 for the discussion on the possible causes of ERPs and their relevance for the interpretation of changes in aperiodic activity. We have changed the relevant paragraph to read as follows: For example, ERPs may reflect changes in periodic activity, such as phase resets (Makeig et al., 2002), or baseline shifts (Nikulin et al., 2007). ERPs may also capture aperiodic activity, either in the form of evoked transients triggered by an event (Shah et al., 2004) or induced changes in the ongoing background signal. This has important implications: evoked transients can alter the broadband spectrum without implying shifts in ongoing background activity, whereas induced aperiodic changes may signal different neural mechanisms, such as shifts in the excitation-inhibition balance (Gao et al., 2017).

      Reviewer 1 argued that a time point-by-time point comparison between ERPs and aperiodic parameters may not be the most appropriate approach, since aperiodic time series have lower temporal resolution than ERPs. Reviewer suggested comparing their topographies instead. We had already done this in the first version of the paper (see Fig. S7: https://elifesciences.org/reviewedpreprints/101071v1#s10). However, in the second version, we opted to use linear mixed models for each channel-time point in order to maintain consistency with the other analyses in the paper (e.g. the comparison between FOOOF parameters and baseline-corrected power).

      Nevertheless, we repeated the topographic correlations as in the first version, and the results are shown below. Correlations were computed for each time point, subject and condition, and then averaged across these dimensions for visualisation. The pattern differs from that of the linear mixedmodel results (see Fig. S14), with notable correlations appearing after ~0.5 s for the exponent and after ~1.0 s for the offset. Still, the correlations remain low, suggesting that aperiodic parameters and ERPs encode different information (at least in this dataset).

      Author response image 1.<br />

      Additionally, to control for the effect of smearing we have performed the same linear mixed model analysis as in Fig. S14 on low-pass filtered ERPs (with cut-off 10 Hz), and the results were largely similar as in Fig. S14.

      Reviewer 1 discussed two possible explanations for the observed correlations between baselinecorrected power and FOOOF parameters (Figure 4): “The correlation between the exponent and lowfrequency activity could be of either direction: low frequency power changes could reflect 1/f shifts, or exponent estimates might be biased by undetected delta/theta activity. I think that one other piece of evidence /…/ to intuitively highlight why the latter is more likely is the /…/ decrease at high ("transbeta") frequencies, which suggests a rotational shift /../.” We agree with the interpretation that lowfrequency power changes in our data primarily reflect 1/f shifts. However, we are uncertain about the reviewer’s statement that the “latter” explanation (i.e., bias in exponent estimates due to delta/theta activity) is more likely. Given the context, we believe the reviewer may have intended to say the “former” explanation is more likely.

      We agree with the reviewers' observation that rhythmicity, as estimated using the pACF, can be independent of power (Myrov et al., 2024, Fig. 1). However, it seems that in real (non-simulated) datasets, the pACF and power spectral density (PSD) are often moderately correlated (e.g. Myrov et al., 2024, Fig. 5).

      Reviewer 1 asked whether we had examined aperiodic changes in the data before and after subtracting the response-locked ERPs. We did not carry out this extra analysis as, as the reviewer suggests, it would have been excessive – the current version of the paper already contains more than 60 figures. As mentioned in the manuscript, we acknowledge the possibility that response-locked ERPs contribute to the second aperiodic component. However, due to the weak correlation between reaction times and aperiodic activity, the presence of both components throughout the entire epoch (in at least the first and third datasets) and the distinct differences between the ERPs and the aperiodic activity in the different conditions (see Fig. 8 vs. Fig. S13), we cannot conclusively determine whether the second aperiodic component is directly related to motor responses. Finally, we agree with the reviewer that the distribution of the response-locked ERP more closely resembles the frontocentral (earlier) aperiodic component than the later post-response component. We have amended the relevant paragraph in the Discussion to include these observations. ”While it is possible that response-related ERPs contributed to the second aperiodic component, several observations suggest otherwise: both aperiodic components were present throughout the entire epoch, differences between conditions diverged between ERPs and aperiodic activity (compare Figure 8 and Figure S16), and the associations with reaction times were weak. Moreover, the distribution of the response-locked ERP qualitatively resembled the earlier frontocentral aperiodic component more than the later post-response component. Taken together, these findings suggest that ERPs and aperiodic activity capture distinct aspects of neural processing, rather than reflecting the same underlying phenomenon.”

      We agree with Reviewer 1 that our introduction of aperiodic activity was abrupt, and that the term 'aperiodic exponent' required definition. We have now defined it as the spectral steepness in log–log space (i.e. the slope), and have added a brief explanatory sentence to the introduction.

      Reviewer 1 noted that the phrase 'task-related changes in overall power' could be misinterpreted as referring to total (broadband) power, and recommended that we specify a frequency range. We agree, so we have replaced 'overall power' with 'spectral power within a defined frequency range'.

      We agree with Reviewer 1 that the way we worded things in the Discussion section regarding alpha activity and inhibitory processes was awkward and could easily be misread. We have rephrased the sentences and added a brief explanation to avoid implying a direct link between alpha attenuation and neural inhibition.

      Furthermore, based on the reviewer’s suggestion, we added a brief comment in the Discussion section (Theoretical and methodological implications) on theoretical perspectives regarding the interaction between age and aperiodic activity.

      Reviewer 1 suggested including condition as a fixed effect in order to examine whether the relationship between FOOOF parameters and baseline-corrected power is modulated by condition. Specifically, the reviewer proposed changing our model from

      baseline_corrected_power ~ 1 + fooof_parameter + (1|modality) + (1|nback) + (1|stimulus) + (1|subject)

      to

      baseline_corrected_power ~ 1 + fooof_parameter + modality*nback *stimulus + (1|subject)

      While we appreciate this suggestion, we believe that including design variables as fixed effects would confound the interpretation of (marginal) R² as a measure of the association between FOOOF parameters and baseline-corrected power. Our primary question in this analysis was about the fundamental relationship between these measures, not how experimental conditions moderate this relationship.

      To address the reviewer's concern regarding condition-specific effects, we conducted separate analyses for each condition using a simpler model:

      baseline_corrected_power ~ 1 + fooof_parameter + (1|subject)

      The results (now included in the Supplement, Fig. S4–S6) show generally smaller effect sizes compared to our original random-effects model, with notable differences between conditions. The 2-back conditions, particularly the non-target trials, exhibited the weakest associations. Despite these differences, the overall patterns remained consistent with our original findings: exponent and offset exhibited positive associations at low frequencies (delta, theta) and negative associations at higher frequencies (beta, low gamma), while periodic activity correlated substantially with baselinecorrected power in the alpha, beta, and gamma ranges.

      However, this condition-specific approach has important limitations. With only 47 subjects per condition, the statistical power is insufficient for stable correlation estimates (Schönbrodt & Perugini, 2013; https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jrp.2013.05.009). This likely explains why the effects are smaller and less stable effects than in our original model, which uses the full dataset's power while appropriately accounting for condition-related variance through random effects. Since these additional analyses do not alter our primary conclusions, we have included them in the Supplement for completeness and made a minor change in the Discussion section.

      Reviewer 1 asked what channels are lines on Figure 9 based on. As stated in the Methods section, “We fitted models in a mass univariate manner, that is for each channel, frequency (where applicable), and time point separately. /…/ For the purposes of visualisation, p-values were averaged across channels (for heatmaps or lines) or across time (for topographies).” Therefore, the lines and heatmaps apply to all channels.

      Reviewer 2:

      We would like to thank reviewer 2 for their detailed explanation of the expected behaviour of the specparam algorithm. We have added the following explanation to the Methods section:

      Importantly, as noted by the reviewer, this behaviour reflects an explicit design choice of the algorithm: to avoid overfitting ambiguous peaks at the edges of the spectrum, FOOOF excludes peaks that are too close to the boundaries. This exclusion is controlled by the _bw_std_edge parameter, which defines the distance that a peak must be from the edge in order to be retained (in units of standard deviation; set to 1.0 by default). Therefore, although the algorithm is functioning as intended, users should be careful when interpreting aperiodic parameters in datasets where lowfrequency oscillatory activity might be expected.

      In line with the reviewer’s suggestion we have added a version of specparam to the paper.

      We thank reviewer 2 for pointing out two studies that used a time-resolved approach to spectral parameterisation. We have updated the text accordingly:

      Although a similar approach has been used to track temporal dynamics in sleep and resting state (e.g., Wilson et al., 2022; Ameen et al., 2024), as well as in task-based contexts (e.g., Barrie et al., 1996; Preston et al., 2025), its specific application to working memory paradigms remains underexplored.

      Reviewer 3:

      Reviewer 3 notes that the revised manuscript feels less intriguing than the original version. While we understand this concern, we believe this difference arises from a misalignment in expectations regarding the scope and purpose of our study. We think the reviewer is interpreting our work as focusing on whether theta activity is elicited in a paradigm that reliably produces theta oscillations. In contrast, our study is framed around a working memory task in which, based on prior literature, we expected to observe theta activity but instead found an absence of theta spectral peaks in almost all participants. Note that the absence of theta is already noteworthy in itself, given that theta oscillations are believed to play a crucial role in working memory.

      Importantly, Van Engen et al. (2024) have recently reported similar findings:

      ”While we did not observe load-dependent aperiodic changes over the frontal midline, we did reveal the possibility that previous frontal midline theta results that do not correct for aperiodic activity likely do not reflect theta oscillations. /…/ While our results do not invalidate previous research into extracranial theta oscillations in relation to WM, they challenge popular and widely held beliefs regarding the mechanistic role for theta oscillations to group or segregate channels of information”.

      From this perspective, we maintain that the following statements are still justified:

      “substantial portion of the changes often attributed to theta oscillations in working memory tasks may be influenced by shifts in the spectral slope of aperiodic activity”

      "Note that although no prominent oscillatory peak in the theta range was observed at the group level, and some of this activity could potentially fall within the delta range, similar lowfrequency patterns have often been referred to as 'theta' in previous work, even in the absence of a clear spectral peak"

      These formulations are intended to emphasize existing interpretations of changes in low-frequency power as theta oscillations in related research.

      Next, Reviewer 3 pointed out that “spectral reflection (peak?) in spectral power plot does not imply that an event is repeating (i..e. oscillatory).” We agree with the reviewer that not every spectral peak implies a true oscillation. To address this, we complemented the power analyses with a measure of rhythmicity (phase autocorrelation function, pACF) after the first round of reviews, and the pACF results were largely similar to those for periodic activity. These results suggest that, in our case, periodic activity is indeed largely oscillatory.

      However, we do agree with the reviewer that the term “oscillatory” is not interchangeable with “periodic”. To address this, we reviewed the paper for all appearances of “oscillations”, “oscillatory” and related terms, and replaced them with “power”, “spectral” or “periodic activity” where appropriate (all changes are marked in red in the latest version of the manuscript).

      Examples of corrections:

      Changes in aperiodic activity appear as low-frequency oscillations in baseline-corrected time-frequency plots à low-frequency power

      “The periodic component includes only the parameterised oscillatory peak” à spectral peak

      “FOOOF decomposition may miss low-frequency oscillations near the edges of the spectrum” à low-frequency peaks

      We disagree with the reviewer’s assertion that the subtitle “Aperiodic parameters are largely independent of oscillatory activity” is misleading for a methods oriented paper. Namely, the full subtitle is “Rhythmicity analysis reveals aperiodic parameters are largely independent of oscillatory activity”. Since rhythmicity is a phase-based measure that requires repeating dynamics and is therefore indicative of oscillations, we believe this phrasing is technically accurate.

      Finally, we would like to emphasise our contribution once again. Our analyses of rhythmicity, spectrally parameterised power, and baseline-corrected power offer different perspectives on the data. Each of these analyses may lead to different interpretations, but performing all of them on the same data provides a more comprehensive insight into what is actually going on in the data.

      Our findings demonstrate that conclusions drawn from a single analytical approach may be incomplete or misleading. For example, as we discuss in the paper, many studies examine thetagamma coupling in scalp EEG during n-back tasks without first establishing whether theta activity genuinely oscillates (e.g. Rajji et al., 2016). The absence of true theta oscillations would undermine the validity of such analyses. Our multifaceted approach provides researchers with a systematic framework for validating oscillatory assumptions before proceeding with more complex analyses.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review)

      Summary:

      This manuscript addresses the question of whether spontaneous activity contributes to the clustering of retinogeniculate synapses before eye opening. The authors re-analyze a previously published dataset to answer the question. The authors conclude that synaptic clustering is eye-specific and activity dependent during the first postnatal week. While there is useful information in this manuscript, I don't see how the data meaningfully supports the claims made about clustering.

      In adult retinogeniculate connections, functionally specificity is supported by select pairings of retinal ganglion cells and thalamocortical cells forming dozens of synaptic connections in subcellular microcircuits called glomeruli. In this manuscript, the authors measure whether the frequency of nearby synapses is higher in the observed data than in a model where synapses are randomly distributed throughout the volume. Any real anatomical data will deviate from such a model. The interesting biological question is not whether a developmental state deviates from random. The interesting question is how much of the adult clustering occurs before eye opening. In trying to decode the analysis in this manuscript, I can't tell if the answer is 99% or 0.001%.

      We thank the reviewer for their helpful critique through both rounds of review. We have refocused the manuscript on paired eye-specific measurements of active zone addition and spatial relationships among active zones at each age. All effect sizes and power values for each comparison are now reported in Table S2. These measures allow readers to gauge biological significance more transparently.

      Strengths:

      The source dataset is high resolution data showing the colocalization of multiple synaptic proteins across development. Added to this data is labeling that distinguishes axons from the right eye from axons from the left eye. The first order analysis of this data showing changes in synapse density and in the occurrence of multi-active zone synapses is useful information about the development of an important model system.

      Weaknesses:

      I don't think the analysis of clustering within this dataset improves our understanding of how the system works. It is possible that the result is clear to the authors based on looking at the images. As a reader trying to interpret the analysis, I ran into the following problems:

      • It is not possible to estimate biologically meaningful effect sizes from the data provided. Spontaneous activity in the post natal week could be responsible for 99% or 0.001% of RGC synapse clustering.

      • The sample size is too small for the kinds of comparisons being made. The authors point out that many STORM studies use an n of 1 while the authors have n = 3 for each of their six experimental groups. However, the critical bit is what kinds of questions you are trying to answer with a given sample size. This study depends on determining whether the differences between groups are due to age, genotype, or individual variation. This study also makes multiple comparisons of many different noisy parameters that test the same or similar hypothesis. In this context, it is unlikely that n = 3 sufficiently controls for individual variation.

      We have revised the manuscript to focus on eye-specific differences, which are paired measurements collected at each age. We have measured effect sizes and performed power tests for all comparisons presented in the manuscript. These measurements are shown for every figure in a new supplemental table S2.

      • There is no clear biological interpretation of the core measure of the publication, the normalized clustering index. The normalized clustering index starts with counting the fraction of single active zone synapses within various distances to the edge of synapses. This frequency is compared to a randomization model in which the positions of synapses are randomized throughout a volume. The authors found that the biggest deviation between the observed and randomized proximity frequency using a distance threshold of 1.5 um. They consider the deviation from the random model to be a sign of clustering. However, two RGC synapses 1.5 um apart have a good chance of coming from the same RGC axon. At this scale, real observations will, therefore, always look more clustered than a model where synapses are randomly placed in a volume. If you randomly place synapses on an axon, they will be much closer together than if you randomly place synapses within a volume. The authors normalize their clustering measure by dividing by the frequency of clustering in the normalized model. That makes the measure of clustering an ambiguous mix of synapse clustering, axon morphology, and synaptic density.

      We have removed the “normalized clustering index”. “Clustered” inputs are now defined strictly as those that have a neighboring single active-zone (sAZ) synapse within 1.5 mm. For each type of input (sAZ and mAZ) we show 1) the ratio of clustered to isolated inputs for both eyes, and 2) the number of neighboring sAZs (Figure 4).

      We agree with the reviewer that many synapses are likely made nearby along the same axon from an individual RGC. In this scenario, sAZ synapses that are nearby a neighboring mAZ input may be part of the same nascent bouton. And, sAZ synapses nearby other sAZ neighbors may ultimately mature into a mAZ input. At the same time, inputs from one RGC may form nearby other inputs from neighboring RGCs. We discuss these motifs and potential mechanisms of cell-autonomous and non-autonomous development (Lines 300-308).

      • Other measures are also very derived. For instance, one argument is based on determining that the cumulative distribution of the distance of dominant-eye multi-active zone synapses with nearby single-active zone synapses from dominant-eye multi-active zone synapses is statistically different from the cumulative distribution of the distance of dominant-eye multi-active zones without nearby single-active zone synapses from dominant-eye multi-active zones. Multiple permutations of this measure are compared.

      We have simplified the presentation to show all measured path lengths for every input. This allows the reader to see each of the inputs and their relative distances. We present these data for like-eye type interactions at P4 and P8 (Figures 5 and S5).   

      • There are major biological differences between groups that are difficult to control for. Between P2, P4, and P8, there are changes in cell morphology and synaptic density. There are also large differences in synapse density between wild type and KO mice. It is difficult to be confident that these differences are not responsible for the relatively subtle changes in clustering indices.

      • Many claims are based on complicated comparisons between groups rather than the predominating effects within the data. It is noted that: "In KO mice, dominant eye projections showed increased clustering around mAZ synapses compared to sAC synapses suggesting partial maintenance of synaptic clustering despite retinal wave defects". In contrast, I did not notice any discussion of the fact that the most striking trend in those measures is that the clustering index decreases from P2 to P8.

      Related to the points above, we have revised the manuscript to focus on eye-specific release site addition and spatial relationships. For clarity, we have removed the clustering index and instead present ratios of clustered and isolated inputs, the number of sAZ synapses near each input type, and distance between like-eye mAZ inputs (Figure 4).      

      • Statistics are improperly applied. In my first review I tried to push the authors to calculate confidence intervals for two reasons. First, I believed the reader should be able to answer questions such as whether 99% or 0.01% of RGC synaptic clustering occurred in the first postnatal week. Second, I wanted the authors to deal with the fact that n=3 is underpowered for many of the questions they were asking. While many confidence intervals can now be found leading up to a claim, it is difficult to find claims that are directly supported by the correct confidence interval. Many claims are still incorrectly based on which combinations of comparisons produced statistically significant differences and which combinations did not.

      We have substantially revised the manuscript to focus on within-group paired effects between eye-of-origin. We performed power tests for all statistical presentations and effect sizes and powers are presented for every figure in a new supplemental table S2. To simplify the manuscript and make it easier to read, we report confidence interval measurements in a separate supplemental table S3.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study provides a valuable data set showing changes in the spatial organization of synaptic proteins at the retinogeniculate connection during a developmental period of active axonal and synaptic remodeling. The data collected by STORM microscopy is state-of-the-art in terms of the high-resolution view of the presynaptic components of a plastic synapse. The revision has addressed many, but not all, of the initial concerns about the authors interpretation of their data. However, with the revisions, the manuscript has become very dense and difficult to follow.

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer’s thoughtful comments through two rounds of review. To improve the clarity of the manuscript, we have substantially revised the work to streamline the narrative, clearly define terminology, and simplify data presentations, allowing readers to more directly interpret results and their implications.

      Strengths:

      The data presented is of good quality and provides an unprecedented view at high resolution of the presynaptic components of the retinogeniculate synapse during active developmental remodeling. This approach offers an advance to the previous mouse EM studies of this synapse because the CTB label allows identification of the eye from which the presynaptic terminal arises.

      Weaknesses:

      From these data the authors conclude that eye-specific increase in mAZ synapse density occur over retinogeniculate refinement, that sAZ synapses cluster close to mAZ synapses over age, and that this process depends on spontaneous activity and proximity to eye-specific mAZ synapses. While the interpretation of this data set is much more grounded in this revised submission, some of the authors' conclusions/statements still lack convincing supporting evidence.

      This includes:

      (1) The conclusion that multi-active zone synapses are loci for synaptic clustering. This statement, or similar ones (e.g., line 407) suggest that mAZ synapses actively or through some indirect way influence the clustering of sAZ synapses. There is no evidence for this. Clustering of retinal synapses are in part due to the fact that retinal inputs synapse on the proximal dendrites. With increased synaptogenesis, there will be increased density of retinal terminals that are closely localized. And with development, perhaps sAZ synapses mature into mAZ synapses. This scenario could also explain a large part of this data set.

      We thank the reviewer for their comment. We have removed the ambiguous phrasing and clarified the manuscript to explicitly discuss alternative interpretations consistent with the results (Lines 300-308). This includes a discussion of sAZ synapse maturation into mAZ inputs (Lines 294-296).

      (2) The conclusion that, "clustering depends on spontaneous retinal activity" could be misleading to the reader given that the authors acknowledge that their data is most consistent with a failure of synaptogenesis in the mutant mice (in the rebuttal). Additionally clustering does occur in CTB+ projections around mAZ synapses.

      We have removed the highlighted phrase and revised the manuscript to focus on differences in release site addition between eye-of-origin. We clarified our discussion of activity-dependent changes to state that synapses fail to form in the mutant and synaptic clustering was reduced (Lines 324-330).

      (3) Line 403: "Since mAZ synapses are expected to have a higher release probability, they likely play an important role in driving plasticity mechanisms reliant on neurotransmission.":What evidence do the authors have that mAZ are expected to have higher release probability?

      We thank the reviewer for their careful reading. Because they have several active zones, mAZ synapses are expected to have a higher number of release sites (N), which could be independent of release probability at any individual active zone (Pr). We have removed the reference to release probability. Instead, we maintain focus on active zone number.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      This study is a follow-up to a recent study of synaptic development based on a powerful data set that combines anterograde labeling, immunofluorescence labeling of synaptic proteins, and STORM imaging (Cell Reports, 2023). Specifically, they use anti-Vglut2 label to determine the size of the presynaptic structure (which they describe as the vesicle pool size), anti-Bassoon to label active zones with the resolution to count them, and anti-Homer to identify postsynaptic densities. Their previous study compared the detailed synaptic structure across the development of synapses made with contra-projecting vs. ipsi-projecting RGCs and compared this developmental profile with a mouse model with reduced retinal waves. In this study, they produce a new detailed analysis on the same data set in which they classify synapses into "multi-active zone" vs. "single-active zone" synapses and assess the number and spacing of these synapses. The authors use measurements to make conclusions about the role of retinal waves in the generation of same-eye synaptic clusters, providing key insight into how neural activity drives synapse maturation.

      Strengths:

      This is a fantastic data set for describing the structural details of synapse development in a part of the brain undergoing activity-dependent synaptic rearrangements. The fact that they can differentiate eye of origin is what makes this data set unique over previous structural work. The addition of example images from EM data set provides confidence in their categorization scheme.

      Weaknesses:

      Though the descriptions of synaptic clusters are important and represent a significant advance, the authors conclusions regarding the biological processes driving these clusters are not testable by such a small sample. This limitation is expected given the massive effort that goes into generating this data set. Of course the authors are free to speculate, but many of the conclusions of the paper are not statistically supported.

      We thank the reviewer for their helpful comments throughout the revision process. We have substantially modified the manuscript to reframe the work around release site addition during eye-specific competition. Power tests and effect size measurements are presented for every figure in a new supplemental table S2.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Authors should discuss that it is not clear what the relationship is between sAZ and mAZ, and sAZ could turn into a mAZ. This is not unreasonable that the number of AZ/bouton increases with development given that in the adult rodent retinogeniculate bouton, there is an average of 27 active zones (Budisantoso et al, 2012).

      We thank the reviewer for their helpful suggestion. We have added a discussion of the relationship between sAZ and mAZ inputs and the point that sAZ synapses may mature into mAZ synapses (Lines 294-296). We now reference the work of Budisantoso et al., J. Neurosci. 2012.   

      (2) The authors should clarify how the statistics are calculated for the normalized clustering index (figure 3B, C). For ratios of values each with variance, the variance is summed when calculating SEM.

      For clarity, we have removed the normalized clustering index analysis. We have simplified the work to present a clear definition of clustered and unclustered inputs, where clustering is defined by the presence of a nearby neighboring synapse within 1.5mm. We present the ratio of clustered and unclustered inputs for each input type and eye-of-origin. We also show the number of sAZ synapses nearby each clustered input (Figure 4).

      (3) The authors have significantly clarified the terminology that they use in the text. This is much appreciated. However, it would be helpful to the naïve reader if they could define their use of the word "synapse" as referring to individual active zones/release sites or to terminals/boutons. For example:

      Line 378: "Prior electron microscopy studies in the mouse found limited evidence of convergent synaptic clustering from neighboring RGCs at postnatal day 8 (10, 13), suggesting that the mAZ synapses seen in STORM images are single retinogeniculate terminals. The lack of synaptic convergence in prior EM reconstructions at P8 implies that early clustering around mAZ synapses may result from local output clustering within individual RGC arbors.":

      What do the authors mean by "convergent synaptic clustering": do they mean clustering of release sites from different RGC inputs? And what does "local output clustering" mean?

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion to use clear terminology. We have revised the manuscript to define our use of the term “synapse” as a single active zone/release site (Lines 134-136). We refer to mAZ boutons in STORM data as “inputs”. We have revised the discussion of prior EM studies (Lines 130-132) and clarified all discussions of synaptic clustering throughout the work.

      (4) While the authors argue that the retina-specific β2-nAChR mice exhibit disrupted retinal waves and defects in eye specific segregation, the authors are studying issues of active zone density which may depend on mechanisms depending on the postsynaptic neuron. This should be acknowledged.

      We have updated the text to discuss the fact that postsynaptic mechanisms are also critical for the refinement of eye-specific synapses (Lines 332-340). We have added several additional references to the manuscript accordingly.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The authors have addressed many of my original concerns. The additional description of criteria for categorizing synapses, showing all the data points, gives the reader a stronger sense of where the numbers in the quantification come from. Replacing the "complex/simple" distinction with the "multi/single active zone" and the other clarifying text was effective. The addition of the EM data was also a very nice example to help interpret STORM images. It does appear there was no quantification on this EM data set and perhaps just a few example images were taken as "proof of principle". If, by chance, the authors have more EM images to make a data set of them that allows for some quantification, that would be great to add.

      We thank the reviewer for their helpful comments on the manuscript through both rounds of review. The EM data we collected were 2D images of a subset of physical sections at postnatal day 8. Most dAPEX2(+) profiles had a single active zone, but a definitive identification would require 3D imaging so that each terminal can be assessed in its entirety for release sites that might be missed in a single cross section. Similarly, multi-active zone boutons are positively identified in 2D images, but definitive measurements of AZ number would require 3D information. We analyzed our 2D EM images and present a plot of dAPEX2(+) profile size versus active zone number below. These measures are positively correlated (r = 0.74), with larger profiles containing more active zones.

      Author response image 1.<br />

      Unfortunately, we are not currently equipped to perform volumetric EM imaging at our home institution and are concerned that analysis of 2D data may be inconclusive. For these reasons, we are opting to maintain a qualitative presentation of our current EM results and we look forward to collaborating with other experts to achieve volumetric EM reconstructions in the future

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      (1) Summary:

      The authors note that it is challenging to perform diffusion MRI tractography consistently in both humans and macaques, particularly when deep subcortical structures are involved. The scientific advance described in this paper is effectively an update to the tracts that the XTRACT software supports. The claims of robustness are based on a very small selection of subjects from a very atypical dMRI acquisition (n=50 from HCP-Adult) and an even smaller selection of subjects from a more typical study (n=10 from ON-Harmony).

      Strengths:

      The changes to XTRACT are soundly motivated in theory (based on anatomical tracer studies) and practice (changes in seeding/masking for tractography), and I think the value added by these changes to XTRACT should be shared with the field. While other bundle segmentation software typically includes these types of changes in release notes, I think papers are more appropriate.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for their assessment and we appreciate the comments for improving our manuscript. We have added new results, sampling from a larger cohort with a typical dMRI protocol (N=50 from UK Biobank), as well as showcasing examples from individual subject reconstructions (Supplementary figures S6, S7). We also demonstrate comparisons against another approach that has been proposed for extracting parts of the cortico-striatal bundle in a bundle segmentation fashion, as the reviewer suggests (see comment and Author response image 1 below). 

      We would also like to take the opportunity to summarise the novelty of our contribuIons, as detailed in the Introduction, which we believe extend beyond a mere software update; this is a byproduct of this work rather than the aim. 

      i) We devise for the first Ime standard-space protocols for 21 challenging cortico-subcortical bundles for both human and macaque and we interrogate them in a comprehensive manner.

      ii) We demonstrate robustness of these protocols using criteria grounded on neuroanatomy, showing that tractography reconstructions follow topographical principles known from tracers both in WM and GM and for both species. We also show that these protocols capture individual variability as assessed by respecting family structure in data from the HCP twins.

      iii) We use high-resolution dMRI data (HCP and post-mortem macaque) to showcase feasibility of these reconstructions, and we show that reconstructions are also plausible with more conventional data, such as the ones from the UK Biobank.

      iv) We further showcase robustness and the value of cross-species mapping by using these tractography reconstructions to predict known homologous grey matter (GM) regions across the two species, both in cortex and subcortex, on the basis of similarity of grey matter areal connection patterns to the set of proposed white matter bundles.

      Weaknesses

      (2) The demonstration of the new tracts does not include a large number of carefully selected scans and is only compared to the prior methods in XTRACT. The small n and limited statistical comparisons are insufficient to claim that they are better than an alternative. Qualitatively, this method looks sound.

      We appreciate the suggestion for larger sample size, so we performed the same analysis using 50 randomly drawn UK Biobank subjects, instead of ON-Harmony, matching the N=50 randomly drawn HCP subjects (detailed explanation in the comment below, Main text Figure 4A; Supplementary Figures S4). We also generated results using the full set of N=339 HCP unrelated subjects (Supplementary Figure S5 compares 10, 50 and 339 unrelated HCP subjects). We provide further details in the relevant point (3) below. 

      With regards to comparisons to other methods, there are not really many analogous approaches that we can compare against. In our knowledge there are no previous cross-species, standard space tractography protocols for the tracts we considered in this study (including Muratoff, amygdalofugal, different parts of extreme an external capsules, along with their neighbouring tracts). We therefore i) directly compared against independent neuroanatomical knowledge and patterns (Figures 2, 3, 5), ii) confirmed that patterns against data quality and individual variability that the new tracts demonstrate are similar to patterns observed for the more established cortical tracts (Figure 4), iii) indirectly assessed efficacy by performing a demanding task, such as homologue identification on the basis of the tracts we reconstruct (Figures 6, 7). 

      We need to point out that our approach is not “bundle segmentation”, in the sense of “datadriven” approaches that cluster streamlines into bundles following full-brain tractography. The latter is different in spirit and assigns a label to each generated streamline; as full-brain tractography is challenging (Maier-Hein, Nature Comms 2017), we follow instead the approach of imposing anatomical constraints to miIgate for some of these challenges as suggested in (MaierHein, 2017).

      Nevertheless, we used TractSeg (one of the few alternatives that considers corticostriatal bundles) to perform some comparisons. The Author response image below shows average path distributions across 10 HCP subjects for a few bundles that we also reconstruct in our paper (no temporal part of striatal bundle is generated by Tractseg). We can observe that the output for each tract is highly overlapping across subjects, indicating that there is not much individual variability captured. We also see the reduced specificity in the connectivity end-points of the bundles. 

      Author response image 1.

      Comparison between 10-subject average for example subcortical tracts using TractSeg and XTRACT. We chose example bundles shared between our set and TractSeg. Per subject TractSeg produces a binary mask rather than a path distribution per tract. Furthermore, the mask is highly overlapping across subjects. Where direct correspondence was not possible, we found the closest matching tract. Specifically, we used ST_PREF for STBf, and merged ST_PREC with ST_POSTC to match StBm. There was no correspondence for the temporal part of StB.

      We subsequently performed the twinness test using both TractSeg and XTRACT (Author response image 2), as a way to assess whether aspects of individual variability can be captured. Due to heritability of brain organisation features, we anticipate that monozygotic twins have more similar tract reconstructions compared to dizygoIc twins and subsequently non-twin siblings. This pattern is reproduced using our proposed approach, but not using TractSeg that provides a rather flat pattern.  

      Author response image 2.

      Violin plots of the mean pairwise Pearson’s correlations across tracts between 72 monozygotic (MZ) twin pairs, 72 dizygotic (DZ) twin pairs, 72 non-twin sibling pairs, and 72 unrelated subject pairs from the Human Connectome Project, using Tractseg (left) and XTRACT (right). About 12 cortico-subcortical tracts were considered, as closely matched as possible between the two approaches. For Tractseg we considered: 'CA', 'FX', 'ST_FO', 'ST_M1S1' (merged ‘ST_PREC’ and ‘ST_POSTC’ to approximate the sensorimotor part of our striatal bundle), 'ST_OCC', 'ST_PAR', 'ST_PREF',  'ST_PREM', 'T_M1S1' (merged ‘T_PREC’ and ‘T_POSTC’ to approximate the sensorimotor part of our striatal bundle), 'T_PREF', 'T_PREM', 'UF'. For XTRACT we considered: 'ac', 'fx', 'StB<sub>f</sub>', 'StB<sub>m</sub>', 'StB<sub>p</sub>', 'StB<sub>t</sub>, 'EmC<sub>f</sub>', 'EmC<sub>p</sub>', 'EmC<sub>t</sub>', 'MB', 'amf', 'uf'. Showing the mean (μ) and standard deviation (σ) for each group. There were no significant di^erences between groups using TractSeg.

      Taken together, these results indicate as a minimum that the different approaches have potentially different aims. Their different behaviour across the two approaches can be desirable and beneficial for different applications (for instance WM ROI segmentation vs connectivity analysis) but makes it challenging to perform like-to-like comparisons.

      (3) “Subject selection at each stage is unclear in this manuscript. On page 5 the data are described as "Using dMRI data from the macaque (𝑁 = 6) and human brain (𝑁 = 50)". Were the 50 HCP subjects selected to cover a range of noise levels or subject head motion? Figure 4 describes 72 pairs for each of monozygotic, dizygotic, non-twin siblings, and unrelated pairs - are these treated separately? Similarly, NH had 10 subjects, but each was scanned 5 times. How was this represented in the sample construction?”

      We appreciate the suggestions and we agree that some of the choices in terms of group sizes may have been confusing. Short answer is we did not perform any subject selection, subjects were randomly drawn from what we had available. The 72 twin pairs are simply the maximum number of monozygotic twin pairs available in the HCP cohort, so we used 72 pairs in all categories to match this number in these specific tests. The N=6 animals are good quality post-mortem dMRI data that have been acquired in the past and we cannot easily expand. For the rest of the points, we have now made the following changes:

      We have replaced our comparison to the ON-Harmony dataset (10 subjects) with a comparison to 50 unrelated UK Biobank subjects (to match the 50 unrelated HCP subject cohort used throughout). Updated results can be seen in Figure 4A and Supplementary Figure S4. This allows a comparison of tractography reconstruction between high quality and more conventional quality data for the same N.

      We looked at QC metrics to ensure our chosen cohorts were representaIve of the full cohorts we had available. The N=50 unrelated HCP cohort and N=50 unrelated UKBiobank cohorts we used in the study captured well the range of the full 339 unrelated HCP cohort and N=7192 UKBiobank cohort in terms of absolute/relative moion (Author response image 3A and 3B respectively). A similar pattern was observed in terms of SNR and CNR ranges Author response image 4).

      We generated tractography reconstructions for single subjects, corresponding to the 10th percentile (P<sub>10</sub>), median and 90th percentile (P90) of the distributions with respect to similarity to the cohort average maps. These are now shown in Supplementary Figures S6, S7. We also checked the QC metrics for these single subjects and confirmed that average absolute subject moIon was highest for the P<sub>10</sub>, followed by the P<sub>50</sub> and lowest for the P<sub>90</sub> subject, capturing a range of within cohort data quality.

      We generated reconstructions for an even larger HCP cohort (all 339 unrelated HCP subjects) and these look very similar to the N=50 reconstructions (Supplementary Figure S5).

      Author response image 3.

      Subsets chosen from the HCP and UKB reflect similar range of average motion (relative and absolute) to the corresponding full cohorts. (A) Absolute and relative motion comparison between N=50 and N=339 unrelated HCP subjects. (B) Absolute and relative motion comparison between N=50 and N=7192 super-healthy UKB subjects.  

      Author response image 4.

      Average SNR and CNR values show similar range between the N=50 UKB subset and the full UK Biobank cohort of N=7192.

      (4) In the paper, the authors state "the mean agreement between HCP and NH reconstructions was lower for the new tracts, compared to the original protocols (𝑝 < 10^−10). This was due to occasionally reconstructing a sparser path distribution, i.e., slightly higher false negative rate," - how can we know this is a false negative rate without knowing the ground truth?

      We are sorry for the terminology, we have corrected this, as it was confusing. Indeed, we cannot call it false negaIve, what we meant is that reconstructions from lower resolution data for these bundles ended up being in general sparser than the ones from the high-resolution data, potentially missing parts of the tract. We have now revised the text accordingly.

      Reviewer #2 Public Review:

      (5) Summary:

      In this article, Assimopoulos et al. expand the FSL-XTRACT software to include new protocols for identifying cortical-subcortical tracts with diffusion MRI, with a focus on tracts connecting to the amygdala and striatum. They show that the amygdalofugal pathway and divisions of the striatal bundle/external capsule can be successfully reconstructed in both macaques and humans while preserving large-scale topographic features previously defined in tract tracing studies. The authors set out to create an automated subcortical tractography protocol, and they accomplished this for a subset of specific subcortical connections for users of the FSL ecosystem.

      Strengths:

      A main strength of the current study is the translation of established anatomical knowledge to a tractography protocol for delineating cortical-subcortical tracts that are difficult to reconstruct. Diffusion MRI-based tractography is highly prone to false positives; thus, constraining tractography outputs by known anatomical priors is important. Key additional strengths include 1) the creation of a protocol that can be applied to both macaque and human data; 2) demonstration that the protocol can be applied to be high quality data (3 shells, > 250 directions, 1.25 mm isotropic, 55 minutes) and lower quality data (2 shells, 100 directions, 2 mm isotropic, 6.5 minutes); and 3) validation that the anatomy of cortical-subcortical tracts derived from the new method are more similar in monozygotic twins than in siblings and unrelated individuals.

      We thank the Reviewer for the globally posiIve evaluaIon of this work and the perInent comments that have helped us to improve the paper.

      Weaknesses

      (6) Although this work validates the general organizational location and topographic organization of tractography-derived cortical-subcortical tracts against prior tract tracing studies (a clear strength), the validation is purely visual and thus only qualitative. Furthermore, it is difficult to assess how the current XTRACT method may compare to currently available tractography approaches to delineating similar cortical-subcortical connections. Finally, it appears that the cortical-subcortical tractography protocols developed here can only be used via FSL-XTRACT (yet not with other dMRI software), somewhat limiting the overall accessibility of the method.

      We agree that a more quanItative comparison against gold standard tracing data would be ideal. However, there are practical challenges that prohibit such a comparison at this stage: i) Access to data. There are no quantifiable, openly shared, large scale/whole brain tracing data available. The Markov study provided the only openly available weighted connectivity matrices measured by tracers in macaques (Markov, Cereb Cortex 2014), which are only cortico-cortical and do not provide the white matter routes, they only quantify the relative contrast in connection terminals. ii) 2D microscopy vs 3D tractography. The vast majority of tracing data one can find in neuroanatomy labs is on 2D microscopy slices with restricted field of view, which is also the case for the data we had access to for this study. This complicates significantly like-to-like comparisons against 3D whole-brain tractography reconstructions. iii) Quantifiability is even tricky in the case of gold standard axonal tracing, as it depends on nuisance factors, e.g. injection site, injection size, injection uniformity and coverage, which confound the gold-standard measurements, but are not relevant for tractography. For these reasons, a number of high-profile NIH BRAIN CONNECTS Centres (for instance hXps://connects.mgh.harvard.edu/, hXps://mesoscaleconnecIvity.org/) are resourced to address these challenges at scale in the coming years and provide the tools to the community to perform such quantitative comparisons in the future.  

      In terms of comparison with other approaches, we have performed new tests and detail a response to a similar comment (2) from Reviewer 1.

      Finally, our protocols have been FSL-tested, but have nothing that is FSL specific. We cannot speak of performance when used with other tools, but there is nothing that prohibits translation of these standard space protocols to other tools. In fact, the whole idea behind XTRACT was to generate an approach open to external contributions for bundle-specific delineation protocols, both for humans and for non-human species. A number of XTRACT extensions that have been published over the last 5 years for other NHP species (Roumazeilles et al. (2020); Bryant et al. (2020); Wang et al. (2025)) and similar approaches have been used in commercial packages (Boshkovski et al, 2106, ISMRM 2022).

      Recommendations To the Authors:

      (7) Superiority of the FSL-XTRACT approach to delineating cortical-subcortical tracts. The Introduction of the article describes how "Tractography protocols for white matter bundles that reach deeper subcortical regions, for instance the striatum or the amygdala, are more difficult to standardize" due to the size, proximity, complexity, and bottlenecks associated with corticalsubcortical tracts. It would be helpful for the authors to better describe how the analytic approach adopted here overcomes these various challenges. What does the present approach do differently than prior efforts to examine cortical-subcortical connectivity? 

      There have not been many prior efforts to standardise cortico-subcortical connecIvity reconstructions, as we overview in the Introduction. As outlined in (Schilling et al. (2020),  hXps://doi.org/10.1007/s00429-020-02129-z), tractography reconstructions can be highly accurate if we guide them using constraints that dictate where pathways are supposed to go and where they should not go. This is the philosophy behind XTRACT and all the proposed protocols, which provide neuroanatomical constraints across different bundles. At the same time these constraints are relatively coarse so that they are species-generalisable. We have clarified that in Discussion. The approach we took was to first identify anatomical constraints from neuroanatomy literature for each tract of interest independently, derive and test these protocols in the macaque, and then optimise in an iterative fashion until the protocols generalise well to humans and until, when considering groups of bundles, the generated reconstructions can follow topographical principles known from tract tracing literature. This process took years in order to perform these iterations as meticulously as we could. We have modified the first sections in Methods to reflect this better (3rd paragraph of 1st Methods section), as well as modified the third and second to last paragraphs of the Introduction (“We propose an approach that addresses these challenges…”).

      (8) Relatedly, it is difficult to fully evaluate the utility of the current approach to dissecting cortical-subcortical tracts without a qualitative or quantitative comparison to approaches that already exist in the field. Can the authors show that (or clarify how) the FSL-XTRACT approach is similar to - or superior to - currently available methods for defining cortical-striatal and amygdalofugal tracts (e.g., methods they cite in the Introduction)?”

      From the limited similar approaches that exist, we did perform some comparisons against TractSeg, please see Reply to Comment 2 from Reviewer 1. We have also expanded the relevant text in the introduction to clarify the differences:

      “…However, these either uIlise labour-intensive single-subject protocols (22,26), are not designed to be generalisable across species (42, 43), or are based mostly on geometrically-driven parcellaIons that do not necessarily preserve topographical principles of connecIons (40). We propose an approach that addresses these challenges and is automated, standardised, generalisable across two species and includes a larger set of cortico-subcortical bundles than considered before, yielding tractography reconstructions that are driven by neuroanatomical constraints.”

      (9) Future applications of the tractography protocol:

      It would be helpful for the authors to describe the contexts in which the automated tractography approach developed here can (and cannot) be applied in future studies. Are future applications limited to diffusion data that has been processed with FSL's BEDPOSTX and PROBTRACKX? Can FSL-XTRACT take in diffusion data modelled in other software (e.g., with CSD in mrtrix or with GQI in DSI Studio)? Can the seed/stop/target/exclusion ROIs be applied to whole-brain tractography generated in other software? Integration with other software suites would increase the accessibility of the new tract dissection protocols.

      We have added some text in the Discussion to clarify this point. Our protocols have been FSLtested, but have nothing that is FSL specific. We cannot speak of performance of other tools, but there is nothing that prohibits translaIon of these standard space protocols to other tools. As described before, the protocols are recipes with anatomical constraints including regions the corresponding white matter pathways connect to and regions they do not, constructed with cross-species generalisability in mind. In fact a number of other packages (even commercial) have adopted the XTRACT protocols with success in the past, so we do not see anything in principle that prohibits these new protocols to be similarly adopted. 

      We cannot comment on the protocols’ relevance for segmenIng whole-brain tractograms, as these can induce more false posiIves than tractography reconstructions from smaller seed regions and may require stricter exclusions.    

      (10) It was great to see confirmation that the XTRACT approach can be successfully applied in both high-quality diffusion data from the HCP and in the ON-Harmony data. Given the somewhat degraded performance in the lower quality dataset (e.g., Figure 4A), can the authors speak to the minimum data requirements needed to dissect these new cortical-subcortical tracts? Will the approach work on single-shell, low b data? Is there a minimum voxel resolution needed? Which tracts are expected to perform best and worst in lower-quality data?

      Thank you for these comments, even if we have not really tried in lower (spaIal and angular) resolution data, given the proximity of the tracts considered, as well as the small size of some bundles, we would not recommend lower resolution than those of the UK Biobank protocol. In general, we would consider the UK Biobank protocol (2mm, 2 shells) as the minimum and any modern clinical scanner can achieve this in 6-8 minutes. We hence evaluated performance from high quality HCP to lower quality UK Biobank data, covering a considerable range (scan Ime from 55 minutes down to 6 minutes). 

      In terms of which tract reconstructions were more reproducible for UKBiobank data, the tracts with lowest correlations across subjects (Figure 4) were the anterior commissure (AC) and the temporal part of the Extreme Capsule (EmC<sub>t</sub>), while the highest correlations were for the Muratoff Bundle (MB) and the temporal part of the Striatal Bundle (StB<sub>t</sub>). Interestingly, for the HCP data, the temporal part of the Extreme Capsule (EmC<sub>t</sub>) and the Muratoff Bundle were also the tracts with the lowest/highest correlations, respectively. Hence, certain tract reconstructions were consistently more variable than others across subjects, which may hint to also being more challenging to reconstruct. We have now clarified these aspects in the corresponding Results section. 

      (11) Anatomical validation of the new cortical-subcortical tracts

      I really appreciated the use of prior tract tracing findings to anatomically validate the corticalsubcortical tractography outputs for both the cortical-striatal and amygdalofugal tracts. It struck me, however, that the anatomical validation was purely qualitative, focused on the relative positioning or the topographical organization of major connections. The anatomical validation would be strengthened if profiles of connectivity between cortical regions and specific subcortical nuclei or subcortical subdivisions could be quantitatively compared, if at all possible. Can the differential connectivity shown visually for the putamen in Figure 3 be quantified for the tract tracing data and the tractography outputs? Does the amygdalofugal bundle show differential/preferential connectivity across amygdala nuclei in tract tracing data, and is this seen in tractography?

      We appreciate the comment, please see Reply to your comment 6 above. In addiIon to the challenges described there, we do not have access to terminal fields other than in the striatum and these ones are 2D, so we make a qualitaIve comparison of the relevant connecIvity contrasts. We expect that a number of currently ongoing high-profile BRAIN CONNECTS Centres (such as the LINC and the CMC) will be addressing such challenges in the coming years and will provide the tools and data to the community to perform such quanItaIve comparisons at scale.  

      (12) I believe that all visualizations of the macaque and human tractography showed groupaveraged maps. What do these tracts look like at the individual level? Understanding individual-level performance and anatomical variation is important, given the Discussion paragraph on using this method to guide neuromodulation.

      We now demonstrate some representative examples of individual subject reconstructions in Supplementary Figures S6, S7, ranking subjects by the average agreement of individual tract reconstructions to the mean and depicting the 10th percentile, median and 90th percentile of these subjects. We have also shown more results in Author response images 1-2, generated by TractSeg, to indicate how a different bundle segmentation approach would handle individual variability compared to our approach.

      (13) Connectivity-based comparisons across species:

      Figures 5 and 6 of the manuscript show that, as compared to using only cortico-cortical XTRACT tracts, using the full set of XTRACT tracts (with new cortical-subcortical tracts) allows for more specific mapping of homologous subcortical and cortical regions across humans and macaques. Is it possible that this result is driven by the fact that the "connectivity blueprints" for the subcortex did not use an intermediary GM x WM matrix to identify connection patterns, whereas the connectivity blueprints for the cortex did? I was surprised that a whole brain GM x WM connectivity matrix was used in the cortical connectivity mapping procedure, given known problems with false positives etc., when doing whole brain tractography - especially aHer such anatomical detail was considered when deriving the original tracts. Perhaps the intermediary step lowers connectivity specificity and accuracy overall (as per Figure 9), accounting for the poorer performance for cortico-cortical tracts?

      The point is well-taken, however it cannot drive the results in Figures 5 and 6. Before explaining this further, let us clarify the raIonale of using the GMxWM connecIvity matrix, which we have published quite extensively in the past for cortico-cortical connecIons (Mars, eLife 2018 - Warrington, Neuroimage 2020 - Roumazeilles, PLoS Biology 2020 - Warrington, Science Advances 2022 – Bryant, J Neuroscience 2025). 

      Having established the bodies of the tract using the XTRACT protocols, we use this intermediate step of multiplying with a GM x WM connectivity matrix to estimate the grey matter projections of the tracts. The most obvious approach of tracking towards the grey matter (i.e. simply find where tracts intersect GM) has the problem that one moves through bottlenecks in the cortical gyrus and after which fibres fan out. Most tractography algorithms have problems resolving this fanning. However, we take the opposite approach of tracking from the grey matter surface towards the white matter (GMxWM connectivity matrix), thus following the direction in which the fibres are expected to merge, rather than to fan out. We then multiply the GMxWM tractrogram with that of the body of the tract to identify the grey matter endpoints of the tract. This avoids some of the major problems associated with tracking towards the surface. In fact, using this approach improves connectivity specificity towards the cortex, rather than the opposite. We provide some indicative results here for a few tracts:

      Author response image 5.

      Connectivity profiles for example cortico-cortical tracts with and without using the intermediary GMxWM matrix. Tracts considered are the Superior Longitudinal Fasciculus 1 (SLF<sub>1</sub>), Superior Longitudinal Fasciculus 2 (SLF<sub>2</sub>), the Frontal Aslant (FA) and the Inferior Fronto-Occipital Fasciculus (IFO). We see that the surface connectivity patterns without using the GMxWM intermediary matrix are more diffuse (effect of “fanning out” gyral bias), with reduced specificity, compared to whenusing the GMxWM matrix

      Tracking to/from subcortical nuclei does not have the same tractography challenges as tracking towards the cortex and in fact we found that using the intermediary GMxWM matrix is less favourable for subcortex (Figure 9), which is why we opted for not using it. 

      Regardless of how cortical and subcortical connectivity patterns are obtained, the results in Figures 5 and 6 utilise only cortical connectivity patterns. Hence, no matter what tracts are considered (cortico-cortical or cortico-subcortical) to build the connectivity patterns, these results have been obtained by always using the intermediate step of multiplying with the GMxWM connectivity matrix (i.e. it is not the case that cortical features are obtained with the intermediate step and subcortical features without, all of them have the intermediate step applied, as the connectivity patterns comprise of cortical endpoints). Figure 9 is only applicable for subcortical endpoints that play no role in the comparisons shown in Figures 5 and 6. We hope this clarifies this point.

      (14) Methodological clarifications:

      The Methods describe how anatomical masks used in tractography were delineated in standard macaque space and then translated to humans using "correspondingly defined landmarks". Can the authors elaborate as to how this translation from macaques to humans was accomplished?

      For a given tract, our process for building a protocol involved looking into the wider anatomical literature, including the standard white matter atlas of Schmahmann and Pandya (2006) and numerous anatomy papers that are referenced in the protocol description, to determine the expected path the tract was meant to take in white matter and which cortical and subcortical regions are connected. This helped us define constraints and subsequently the corresponding masks. The masks were created through the combination of hand-drawn ROIs and standard space atlases. We firstly started with the macaque where tracer literature is more abundant, but, importantly, our protocol definitions have been designed such that the same protocol can be applied to the human and macaque brain. All choices were made with this aspect in mind, hence corresponding landmarks between the two brains were considered in the mask definition (for instance “the putamen”, “a sub-commissural white matter mask”, the “whole frontal pole” etc, as described in the protocol descriptions).

      The protocols have not been created by a single expert but have been collated from multiple experts (co-authors SA, SW, DF, KB, SH, SS drove this aspect) and the final definitions have been agreed upon by the authors. 

      (15) The article heavily utilizes spatial path distribution maps/normalized path distributions, yet does not describe precisely what these are and how they were generated. Can the authors provide more detail, along with the rationale for using these with Pearson's correlations to compare tracts across subjects (as opposed to, e.g., overlap sensitivity/specificity or the Jaccard coefficient)?

      We have now clarified in text how these plots are generated, particularly when compared using correlation values. We tried Jaccard indices on binarized masks of the tracts and these gave similar trends to the correlations reported in Figure 4 (i.e. higher similarities within that across cohorts). We however feel that correlations are better than Jaccard indices, as the latter assume binary masks, so they focus on spatial overlap ignoring the actual values of the path distributions, we hence kept correlations in the paper.

      Reviewing Editor Comments

      “The reviewers had broadly convergent comments and were enthusiastic about the work. As further detailed by Reviewer 3 (see below), if the authors choose to pursue revisions, there are several elements that have the potential to enhance impact.”

      Thank you, we have replied accordingly and aimed to address most of the comments of the Reviewers.   

      “Comparison to existing methods. How does this approach compare to other approaches cited by the authors?”

      Please see replies to Comment 2 of Reviewer 1 and Comment 7 of Reviewer 2. Briefly, we have now generated new results and clarified aspects in the text. 

      “Minimum data requirements. How broadly can this approach be used across scan variation? How does this impact data from individual participants? Displaying individual participants may help, in addition to group maps.”

      Please see replies to Comment 10 of Reviewer2 on minimum data requirements and individual parIcipants, as well as to Comment 3 of Reviewer 1 on the actual groups considered. Briefly, we have generated new figures and regenerated results using UKBiobank data. 

      Softare. What are the sofware requirements? Is the approach interoperable with other methods?”

      Please see Reply to Comment 9 of Reviewer 2. Our protocols can be used to guide tractography using other types of data as they comprise of guiding ROIs for a given tract. So, although we have not tested them beyond FSL-XTRACT, we believe they can be useful with other tractography packages as well, as there is nothing FSL-specific in these anatomically-informed recipes. 

      “Comparisons with tract tracing. To the degree possible, quantitative comparisons with tract tracing data would bolster confidence in the method.”

      Please see Replies to Comments 6 and 11 of Reviewer 2. Briefly, we appreciate the comment and it is something we would love to do, but there are no data readily available that would allow such quanItaIve comparison in a meaningful way. This is a known challenge in the tractography field, which is why NIH has invested in two 5 year Centres to address it. Our approach will provide a solid starIng point for opImising and comparing further cortico-subcortical tractography reconstructions against microscopy and tracers in the same animal and at scale.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Gu et al. employed novel viral strategies, combined with in vivo two-photon imaging, to map the tone response properties of two groups of cortical neurons in A1. The thalamocortical recipient (TR neurons) and the corticothalamic (CT neurons). They observed a clear tonotopic gradient among TR neurons but not in CT neurons. Moreover, CT neurons exhibited high heterogeneity of their frequency tuning and broader bandwidth, suggesting increased synaptic integration in these neurons. By parsing out different projecting-specific neurons within A1, this study provides insight into how neurons with different connectivity can exhibit different frequency response-related topographic organization.

      Strengths:

      This study reveals the importance of studying neurons with projection specificity rather than layer specificity since neurons within the same layer have very diverse molecular, morphological, physiological, and connectional features. By utilizing a newly developed rabies virus CSN-N2c GCaMP-expressing vector, the authors can label and image specifically the neurons (CT neurons) in A1 that project to the MGB. To compare, they used an anterograde trans-synaptic tracing strategy to label and image neurons in A1 that receive input from MGB (TR neurons).

      Weaknesses:

      Perhaps as cited in the introduction, it is well known that tonotopic gradient is well preserved across all layers within A1, but I feel if the authors want to highlight the specificity of their virus tracing strategy and the populations that they imaged in L2/3 (TR neurons) and L6 (CT neurons), they should perform control groups where they image general excitatory neurons in the two depths and compare to TR and CT neurons, respectively. This will show that it's not their imaging/analysis or behavioral paradigms that are different from other labs. 

      We thank the reviewer for these constructive suggestions. As recommended, we have performed control experiments that imaged the general excitatory neurons in superficial layers (shown below), and the results showed a clear tonotopic gradient, which was consistent with previous findings (Bandyopadhyay et al., 2010; Romero et al., 2020; Rothschild et al., 2010; Tischbirek et al., 2019), thereby validating the reliability of our imaging/analysis approach. The results are presented in a new supplemental figure (Figure 2- figure supplementary 3).

      Related publications:

      (1) Gu M, Li X, Liang S, Zhu J, Sun P, He Y, Yu H, Li R, Zhou Z, Lyu J, Li SC, Budinger E, Zhou Y, Jia H, Zhang J, Chen X. 2023. Rabies virus-based labeling of layer 6 corticothalamic neurons for two-photon imaging in vivo. iScience 26: 106625. DIO: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.isci.2023.106625, PMID: 37250327

      (2) Bandyopadhyay S, Shamma SA, Kanold PO. 2010. Dichotomy of functional organization in the mouse auditory cortex. Nat Neurosci 13: 361-8. DIO: https://doi.org/10.1038/nn.2490, PMID: 20118924

      (3) Romero S, Hight AE, Clayton KK, Resnik J, Williamson RS, Hancock KE, Polley DB. 2020. Cellular and Widefield Imaging of Sound Frequency Organization in Primary and Higher Order Fields of the Mouse Auditory Cortex. Cerebral Cortex 30: 1603-1622. DIO: https://doi.org/10.1093/cercor/bhz190, PMID: 31667491

      (4) Rothschild G, Nelken I, Mizrahi A. 2010. Functional organization and population dynamics in the mouse primary auditory cortex. Nat Neurosci 13: 353-60. DIO: https://doi.org/10.1038/nn.2484, PMID: 20118927

      (5) Tischbirek CH, Noda T, Tohmi M, Birkner A, Nelken I, Konnerth A. 2019. In Vivo Functional Mapping of a Cortical Column at Single-Neuron Resolution. Cell Rep 27: 1319-1326 e5. DIO: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.celrep.2019.04.007, PMID: 31042460

      Figures 1D and G, the y-axis is Distance from pia (%). I'm not exactly sure what this means. How does % translate to real cortical thickness?

      We thank the reviewer for this question. The distance of labeled cells from pia was normalized to the entire distance from pia to L6/WM border for each mouse, according to the previous study (Chang and Kawai, 2018). For all mice tested, the entire distance from pia to L6/WM border was 826.5 ± 23.4 mm (in the range of 752.9 to 886.1).

      Related publications:

      Chang M, Kawai HD. 2018. A characterization of laminar architecture in mouse primary auditory cortex. Brain Structure and Function 223: 4187-4209. DIO: https://doi.org/10.1007/s00429-018-1744-8, PMID: 30187193

      For Figure 2G and H, is each circle a neuron or an animal? Why are they staggered on top of each other on the x-axis? If the x-axis is the distance from caudal to rostral, each neuron should have a different distance? Also, it seems like it's because Figure 2H has more circles, which is why it has more variation, thus not significant (for example, at 600 or 900um, 2G seems to have fewer circles than 2H). 

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s careful attention to the details of our figures. Each circle in the Figure 2G and H represents an individual imaging focal plane from different animals, and the median BF of some focal planes may be similar, leading to partial overlap. In the regions where overlap occurs, the brightness of the circle will be additive.

      Since fewer CT neurons, compared to TR neurons, responded to pure tones within each focal plane, as shown in Figure 2- figure supplementary 2, a larger number of focal planes were imaged to ensure a consistent and robust analysis of the pure tone response characteristics. The higher variance and lack of correlation in CT neurons is a key biological finding, not an artifact of sample size. The data clearly show a wide spread of median BFs at any given location for CT neurons, a feature absent in the TR population.

      Similarly, in Figures 2J and L, why are the circles staggered on the y-axis now? And is each circle now a neuron or a trial? It seems they have many more circles than Figure 2G and 2H. Also, I don't think doing a correlation is the proper stats for this type of plot (this point applies to Figures 3H and 3J).

      We regret any confusion have caused. In fact, Figure 2 illustrates the tonotopic gradient of CT and TR neurons at different scales. Specifically, Figures 2E-H present the imaging from the focal plane perspective (23 focal planes in Figures 2G, 40 focal planes in Figures 2H), whereas Figures 2I-L provide a more detailed view at the single-cell level (481 neurons in Figures 2J, 491 neurons in Figures 2L). So, Figures 2J and L do indeed have more circles than Figures 2G and H. The analysis at these varying scales consistently reveals the presence of a tonotopic gradient in TR neurons, whereas such a gradient is absent in CT neurons.

      We used Pearson correlation as a standard and direct method to quantify the linear relationship between a neuron's anatomical position and its frequency preference, which is widely used in the field to provide a quantitative measure (R-value) and a significance level (p-value) for the strength of a tonotopic gradient. The same statistical logic applies to testing for spatial gradients in local heterogeneity in Figure 3. We are confident that this is an appropriate and informative statistical approach for these data.

      What does the inter-quartile range of BF (IQRBF, in octaves) imply? What's the interpretation of this analysis? I am confused as to why TR neurons show high IQR in HF areas compared to LF areas, which means homogeneity among TR neurons (lines 213 - 216). On the same note, how is this different from the BF variability?  Isn't higher IQR equal to higher variability?

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important point. IQRBF, is a measure of local tuning heterogeneity. It quantifies the diversity of BFs among neighboring neurons. A small IQRBF means neighbors are similarly tuned (an orderly, homogeneous map), while a large IQRBF means neighbors have very different BFs (a disordered, heterogeneous map). (Winkowski and Kanold, 2013; Zeng et al., 2019).

      From the BF position reconstruction of all TR neurons (Figures 2I), most TR neurons respond to high-frequency sounds in the high-frequency (HF) region, but some neurons respond to low frequencies such as 2 kHz, which contributes to high IQR in HF areas. This does not contradict our main conclusion, that the TR neurons is significantly more homogeneous than the CT neurons. BF variability represents the stability of a neuron's BF over time, while IQR represents the variability of BF among different neurons within a certain range. (Chambers et al., 2023).

      Related publications:

      (1) Chambers AR, Aschauer DF, Eppler JB, Kaschube M, Rumpel S. 2023. A stable sensory map emerges from a dynamic equilibrium of neurons with unstable tuning properties. Cerebral Cortex 33: 5597-5612. DIO: https://doi.org/10.1093/cercor/bhac445, PMID: 36418925

      (2) Winkowski DE, Kanold PO. 2013. Laminar transformation of frequency organization in auditory cortex. Journal of Neuroscience 33: 1498-508. DIO: https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.3101-12.2013, PMID: 23345224

      (3) Zeng HH, Huang JF, Chen M, Wen YQ, Shen ZM, Poo MM. 2019. Local homogeneity of tonotopic organization in the primary auditory cortex of marmosets. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America 116: 3239-3244. DIO: https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1816653116, PMID: 30718428

      Figure 4A-B, there are no clear criteria on how the authors categorize V, I, and O shapes. The descriptions in the Methods (lines 721 - 725) are also very vague.

      We apologize for the initial vagueness and have replaced the descriptions in the Methods section. “V-shaped”: Neurons whose FRAs show decreasing frequency selectivity with increasing intensity. “I-shaped”: Neurons whose FRAs show constant frequency selectivity with increasing intensity. “O-shaped”: Neurons responsive to a small range of intensities and frequencies, with the peak response not occurring at the highest intensity level.

      To provide better visual intuition, we show multiple representative examples of each FRA type for both TR and CT neurons below. We are confident that these provide the necessary clarity and reproducibility for our analysis of receptive field properties.

      Author response image 1.

      Different FRA types within the dataset of TR and CT neurons. Each row shows 6 representative FRAs from a specific type. Types are V-shaped (‘V'), I-shaped (‘I’), and O-shaped (‘O’). The X-axis represents 11 pure tone frequencies, and the Y-axis represents 6 sound intensities.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Gu and Liang et. al investigated how auditory information is mapped and transformed as it enters and exits an auditory cortex. They use anterograde transsynaptic tracers to label and perform calcium imaging of thalamorecipient neurons in A1 and retrograde tracers to label and perform calcium imaging of corticothalamic output neurons. They demonstrate a degradation of tonotopic organization from the input to output neurons.

      Strengths:

      The experiments appear well executed, well described, and analyzed.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Given that the CT and TR neurons were imaged at different depths, the question as to whether or not these differences could otherwise be explained by layer-specific differences is still not 100% resolved. Control measurements would be needed either by recording (1) CT neurons in upper layers, (2) TR in deeper layers, (3) non-CT in deeper layers and/or (4) non-TR in upper layers.

      We appreciate these constructive suggestions. To address this, we performed new experiments and analyses.

      Comparison of TR neurons across superficial layers: we analyzed our existing TR neuron dataset to see if response properties varied by depth within the superficial layers. We found no significant differences in the fraction of tuned neurons, field IQR, or maximum bandwidth (BWmax) between TR neurons in L2/3 and L4. This suggests a degree of functional homogeneity within the thalamorecipient population across these layers. The results are presented in new supplemental figures (Figure 2- figure supplementary 4).

      Necessary control experiments.

      (1) CT neurons in upper layers. CT neurons are thalamic projection neurons that only exist in the deeper cortex, so CT neurons do not exist in upper layers (Antunes and Malmierca, 2021).

      (2) TR neurons in deeper layers. As we mentioned in the manuscript, due to high-titer AAV1-Cre virus labeling controversy (anterograde and retrograde labelling both exist), it is challenging to identify TR neurons in deeper layers.

      (3) non-CT in deeper layers and/or (4) non-TR in upper layers.

      To directly test if projection identity confers distinct functional properties within the same cortical layers, we performed the crucial control of comparing TR neurons to their neighboring non-TR neurons. We injected AAV1-Cre in MGB and a Cre-dependent mCherry into A1 to label TR neurons red. We then co-injected AAV-CaMKII-GCaMP6s to label the general excitatory population green.  In merged images, this allowed us to functionally image and directly compare TR neurons (yellow) and adjacent non-TR neurons (green). We separately recorded the responses of these neurons to pure tones using two-photon imaging. The results show that TR neurons are significantly more likely to be tuned to pure tones than their neighboring non-TR excitatory neurons. This finding provides direct evidence that a neuron's long-range connectivity, and not just its laminar location, is a key determinant of its response properties. The results are presented in new supplemental figures (Figure 2- figure supplementary 5).

      Related publications:

      Antunes FM, Malmierca MS. 2021. Corticothalamic Pathways in Auditory Processing: Recent Advances and Insights From Other Sensory Systems. Front Neural Circuits 15: 721186. DIO: https://doi.org/10.3389/fncir.2021.721186, PMID: 34489648

      (2) What percent of the neurons at the depths are CT neurons? Similar questions for TR neurons?

      We thank the reviewer for the comments. We performed histological analysis on brain slices from our experimental animals to quantify the density of these projection-specific populations. Our analysis reveals that CT neurons constitute approximately 25.47%\22.99%–36.50% of all neurons in Layer 6 of A1. In the superficial layers(L2/3 and L4), TR neurons comprise approximately 10.66%\10.53%–11.37% of the total neuronal population.

      Author response image 2.

      The fraction of CT and TR neurons. (A) Boxplots showing the fraction of CT neurons. N = 11 slices from 4 mice. (B) Boxplots showing the fraction of TR neurons. N = 11 slices from 4 mice.

      (3) V-shaped, I-shaped, or O-shaped is not an intuitively understood nomenclature, consider changing. Further, the x/y axis for Figure 4a is not labeled, so it's not clear what the heat maps are supposed to represent.

      The terms "V-shaped," "I-shaped," and "O-shaped" are an established nomenclature in the auditory neuroscience literature for describing frequency response areas (FRAs), and we use them for consistency with prior work. V-shaped: Neurons whose FRAs show decreasing frequency selectivity with increasing intensity. I-shaped: Neurons whose FRAs show constant frequency selectivity with increasing intensity. O-shaped: Neurons responsive to a small range of intensities and frequencies, with the peak response not occurring at the highest intensity level.

      (Rothschild et al., 2010). We have included a more detailed description in the Methods.

      The X-axis represents 11 pure tone frequencies, and the Y-axis represents 6 sound intensities. So, the heat map represents the FRA of neurons in A1, reflecting the responses for different frequencies and intensities of sound stimuli. In the revised manuscript, we have provided clarifications in the figure legend.

      (4) Many references about projection neurons and cortical circuits are based on studies from visual or somatosensory cortex. Auditory cortex organization is not necessarily the same as other sensory areas. Auditory cortex references should be used specifically, and not sources reporting on S1, and V1.

      We thank the reviewers for their valuable comments. We have made a concerted effort to ensure that claims about cortical circuit organization are supported by findings specifically from the auditory cortex wherever possible, strengthening the focus and specificity of our discussion.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors performed wide-field and 2-photon imaging in vivo in awake head-fixed mice, to compare receptive fields and tonotopic organization in thalamocortical recipient (TR) neurons vs corticothalamic (CT) neurons of mouse auditory cortex. TR neurons were found in all cortical layers while CT neurons were restricted to layer 6. The TR neurons at nominal depths of 200-400 microns have a remarkable degree of tonotopy (as good if not better than tonotopic maps reported by multiunit recordings). In contrast, CT neurons were very heterogenous in terms of their best frequency (BF), even when focusing on the low vs high-frequency regions of the primary auditory cortex. CT neurons also had wider tuning.

      Strengths:

      This is a thorough examination using modern methods, helping to resolve a question in the field with projection-specific mapping.

      Weaknesses:

      There are some limitations due to the methods, and it's unclear what the importance of these responses are outside of behavioral context or measured at single timepoints given the plasticity, context-dependence, and receptive field 'drift' that can occur in the cortex.

      (1) Probably the biggest conceptual difficulty I have with the paper is comparing these results to past studies mapping auditory cortex topography, mainly due to differences in methods. Conventionally, the tonotopic organization is observed for characteristic frequency maps (not best frequency maps), as tuning precision degrades and the best frequency can shift as sound intensity increases. The authors used six attenuation levels (30-80 dB SPL) and reported that the background noise of the 2-photon scope is <30 dB SPL, which seems very quiet. The authors should at least describe the sound-proofing they used to get the noise level that low, and some sense of noise across the 2-40 kHz frequency range would be nice as a supplementary figure. It also remains unclear just what the 2-photon dF/F response represents in terms of spikes. Classic mapping using single-unit or multi-unit electrodes might be sensitive to single spikes (as might be emitted at characteristic frequency), but this might not be as obvious for Ca2+ imaging. This isn't a concern for the internal comparison here between TR and CT cells as conditions are similar, but is a concern for relating the tonotopy or lack thereof reported here to other studies.

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for the thoughtful evaluation of our manuscript and for your positive assessment of our work.

      (1)  Concern regarding Best Frequency (BF) vs. Characteristic Frequency (CF)

      Our use of BF, defined as the frequency eliciting the highest response averaged across all sound levels, is a standard and practical approach in 2-photon Ca²⁺ imaging studies. (Issa et al., 2014; Rothschild et al., 2010; Schmitt et al., 2023; Tischbirek et al., 2019). This method is well-suited for functionally characterizing large numbers of neurons simultaneously, where determining a precise firing threshold for each individual cell can be challenging.

      (2) Concern regarding background noise of the 2-photon setup

      We have expanded the Methods section ("Auditory stimulation") to include a detailed description of the sound-attenuation strategies used during the experiments. The use of a custom-built, double-walled sound-proof enclosure lined with wedge-shaped acoustic foam was implemented to significantly reduce external noise interference. These strategies ensured that auditory stimuli were delivered under highly controlled, low-noise conditions, thereby enhancing the reliability and accuracy of the neural response measurements obtained throughout the study.

      (3) Concern regarding the relationship between dF/F and spikes

      While Ca²⁺ signals are an indirect and filtered representation of spiking activity, they are a powerful tool for assessing the functional properties of genetically-defined cell populations. As you note, the properties and limitations of Ca²⁺ imaging apply equally to both the TR and CT neuron groups we recorded. Therefore, the profound difference we observed—a clear tonotopic gradient in one population and a lack thereof in the other—is a robust biological finding and not a methodological artifact.

      Related publications:

      (1) Issa JB, Haeffele BD, Agarwal A, Bergles DE, Young ED, Yue DT. 2014. Multiscale optical Ca2+ imaging of tonal organization in mouse auditory cortex. Neuron 83: 944-59. DIO: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2014.07.009, PMID: 25088366

      (2) Rothschild G, Nelken I, Mizrahi A. 2010. Functional organization and population dynamics in the mouse primary auditory cortex. Nat Neurosci 13: 353-60. DIO: https://doi.org/10.1038/nn.2484, PMID: 20118927

      (3) Schmitt TTX, Andrea KMA, Wadle SL, Hirtz JJ. 2023. Distinct topographic organization and network activity patterns of corticocollicular neurons within layer 5 auditory cortex. Front Neural Circuits 17: 1210057. DIO: https://doi.org/10.3389/fncir.2023.1210057, PMID: 37521334

      (4) Tischbirek CH, Noda T, Tohmi M, Birkner A, Nelken I, Konnerth A. 2019. In Vivo Functional Mapping of a Cortical Column at Single-Neuron Resolution. Cell Rep 27: 1319-1326 e5. DIO: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.celrep.2019.04.007, PMID: 31042460

      (2) It seems a bit peculiar that while 2721 CT neurons (N=10 mice) were imaged, less than half as many TR cells were imaged (n=1041 cells from N=5 mice). I would have expected there to be many more TR neurons even mouse for mouse (normalizing by number of neurons per mouse), but perhaps the authors were just interested in a comparison data set and not being as thorough or complete with the TR imaging?

      As shown in the Figure 2- figure supplementary 2, a much higher fraction of TR neurons was "tuned" to pure tones (46% of 1041 neurons) compared to CT neurons (only 18% of 2721 neurons). To obtain a statistically robust and comparable number of tuned neurons for our core analysis (481 tuned TR neurons vs. 491 tuned CT neurons), it was necessary to sample a larger total population of CT neurons, which required imaging from more animals.

      (3) The authors' definitions of neuronal response type in the methods need more quantitative detail. The authors state: "Irregular" neurons exhibited spontaneous activity with highly variable responses to sound stimulation. "Tuned" neurons were responsive neurons that demonstrated significant selectivity for certain stimuli. "Silent" neurons were defined as those that remained completely inactive during our recording period (> 30 min). For tuned neurons, the best frequency (BF) was defined as the sound frequency associated with the highest response averaged across all sound levels.". The authors need to define what their thresholds are for 'highly variable', 'significant', and 'completely inactive'. Is best frequency the most significant response, the global max (even if another stimulus evokes a very close amplitude response), etc.

      We appreciate the reviewer's suggestions. We have added more detailed description in the Methods.

      Tuned neurons: A responsive neuron was further classified as "Tuned" if its responses showed significant frequency selectivity. We determined this using a one-way ANOVA on the neuron's response amplitudes across all tested frequencies (at the sound level that elicited the maximal response). If the ANOVA yielded a p-value < 0.05, the neuron was considered "Tuned”. Irregular neurons: Responsive neurons that did not meet the statistical criterion for being "Tuned" (i.e., ANOVA p-value ≥ 0.05) were classified as "Irregular”. This provides a clear, mutually exclusive category for sound-responsive but broadly-tuned or non-selective cells. Silent neurons: Neurons that were not responsive were classified as "Silent". This quantitatively defines them as cells that showed no significant stimulus-evoked activity during the entire recording session. Best frequency (BF): It is the frequency that elicited the maximal mean response, averaged across all sound levels.

      To provide greater clarity, we showed examples in the following figures.

      Author response image 3.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) A1 and AuC were used exchangeably in the text.

      Thank you for pointing out this issue. Our terminological strategy was to remain faithful to the original terms used in the literature we cite, where "AuC" is often used more broadly. In the revised manuscript, we have performed a careful edit to ensure that we use the specific term "A1" (primary auditory cortex) when describing our own results and recording locations, which were functionally and anatomically confirmed.

      (2) Grammar mistakes throughout.

      We are grateful for the reviewer’s suggested improvement to our wording. The entire manuscript has undergone a thorough professional copyediting process to correct all grammatical errors and improve overall readability.

      (3) The discussion should talk more about how/why L6 CT neurons don't possess the tonotopic organization and what are the implications. Currently, it only says 'indicative of an increase in synaptic integration during cortical processing'...

      Thanks for this suggestion. We have substantially revised and expanded the Discussion section to explore the potential mechanisms and functional implications of the lack of tonotopy in L6 CT neurons.

      Broad pooling of inputs: We propose that the lack of tonotopy is an active computation, not a passive degradation. CT neurons likely pool inputs from a wide range of upstream neurons with diverse frequency preferences. This broad synaptic integration, reflected in their wider tuning bandwidth, would actively erase the fine-grained frequency map in favor of creating a different kind of representation.

      A shift from topography to abstract representation: This transformation away from a classic sensory map may be critical for the function of corticothalamic feedback. Instead of relaying "what" frequency was heard, the descending signal from CT neurons may convey more abstract, higher-order information, such as the behavioral relevance of a sound, predictions about upcoming sounds, or motor-related efference copy signals that are not inherently frequency-specific.’

      Modulatory role of the descending pathway: The descending A1-to-MGB pathway is often considered to be modulatory, shaping thalamic responses rather than driving them directly. A modulatory signal designed to globally adjust thalamic gain or selectivity may not require, and may even be hindered by, a fine-grained topographical organization.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Given that the CT and TR neurons were imaged at different depths, the question as to whether or not these differences could otherwise be explained by layer-specific differences is still not 100% resolved. Control measurements would be needed either by recording (1) CT neurons in upper layers (2) TR in deeper layers (3) non-CT in deeper layers and/or (4) non-TR in upper layers.

      We appreciate these constructive suggestions. To address this, we performed new experiments and analyses.

      Comparison of TR neurons across superficial layers: we analyzed our existing TR neuron dataset to see if response properties varied by depth within the superficial layers. We found no significant differences in the fraction of tuned neurons, field IQR, or maximum bandwidth (BWmax) between TR neurons in L2/3 and L4. This suggests a degree of functional homogeneity within the thalamorecipient population across these layers.

      Necessary control experiments.

      (1) CT neurons in upper layers. CT neurons are thalamic projection neurons that only exist in the deeper cortex, so CT neurons do not exist in upper layers (Antunes and Malmierca, 2021).

      (2) TR neurons in deeper layers. As we mentioned in the manuscript, due to high-titer AAV1-Cre virus labeling controversy (anterograde and retrograde labelling both exist), it is challenging to identify TR neurons in deeper layers.

      (3) non-CT in deeper layers and/or (4) non-TR in upper layers.

      To directly test if projection identity confers distinct functional properties within the same cortical layers, we performed the crucial control of comparing TR neurons to their neighboring non-TR neurons. We injected AAV1-Cre in MGB and a Cre-dependent mCherry into A1 to label TR neurons red. We then co-injected AAV-CaMKII-GCaMP6s to label the general excitatory population green.  In merged images, this allowed us to functionally image and directly compare TR neurons (yellow) and adjacent non-TR neurons (green). We separately recorded the responses of these neurons to pure tones using two-photon imaging. The results show that TR neurons are significantly more likely to be tuned to pure tones than their neighboring non-TR excitatory neurons. This finding provides direct evidence that a neuron's long-range connectivity, and not just its laminar location, is a key determinant of its response properties.

      Related publications:

      Antunes FM, Malmierca MS. 2021. Corticothalamic Pathways in Auditory Processing: Recent Advances and Insights From Other Sensory Systems. Front Neural Circuits 15: 721186. DIO: https://doi.org/10.3389/fncir.2021.721186, PMID: 34489648

      (3) V-shaped, I-shaped, or O-shaped is not an intuitively understood nomenclature, consider changing. Further, the x/y axis for Figure 4a is not labeled, so it's not clear what the heat maps are supposed to represent.

      The terms "V-shaped," "I-shaped," and "O-shaped" are an established nomenclature in the auditory neuroscience literature for describing frequency response areas (FRAs), and we use them for consistency with prior work. V-shaped: Neurons whose FRAs show decreasing frequency selectivity with increasing intensity. I-shaped: Neurons whose FRAs show constant frequency selectivity with increasing intensity. O-shaped: Neurons responsive to a small range of intensities and frequencies, with the peak response not occurring at the highest intensity level.

      (Rothschild et al., 2010). We have included a more detailed description in the Methods.

      The X-axis represents 11 pure tone frequencies, and the Y-axis represents 6 sound intensities. So, the heat map represents the FRA of neurons in A1, reflecting the responses for different frequencies and intensities of sound stimuli. In the revised manuscript, we have provided clarifications in the figure legend.

      (4) Many references about projection neurons and cortical circuits are based on studies from visual or somatosensory cortex. Auditory cortex organization is not necessarily the same as other sensory areas. Auditory cortex references should be used specifically, and not sources reporting on S1, V1.

      We thank the reviewers for their valuable comments. We have made a concerted effort to ensure that claims about cortical circuit organization are supported by findings specifically from the auditory cortex wherever possible, strengthening the focus and specificity of our discussion.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I suggest showing some more examples of how different neurons and receptive field properties were quantified and statistically analyzed. Especially in Figure 4, but really throughout.

      We thank the reviewer for this valuable suggestion. To provide greater clarity, we have added more examples in the following figure.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary 

      The authors describe a method for gastruloid formation using mouse embryonic stem cells (mESCs) to study YS and AGM-like hematopoietic differentiation. They characterise the gastruloids during nine days of differentiation using a number of techniques including flow cytometry and single-cell RNA sequencing. They compare their findings to a published data set derived from E10-11.5 mouse AGM. At d9, gastruloids were transplanted under the adrenal gland capsule of immunocompromised mice to look for the development of cells capable of engrafting the mouse bone marrow. The authors then applied the gastruloid protocol to study overexpression of Mnx1 which causes infant AML in humans.

      In the introduction, the authors define their interpretation of the different waves of hematopoiesis that occur during development. 'The subsequent wave, known as definitive, produces: first, oligopotent erythro-myeloid progenitors (EMPs) in the YS (E8-E8.5); and later myelo-lymphoid progenitors (MLPs - E9.5-E10), multipotent progenitors (MPPs - E10-E11.5), and hematopoietic stem cells (HSCs - E10.5-E11.5), in the aorta-gonad-mesonephros (AGM) region of the embryo proper.' Herein they designate the yolk sac-derived wave of EMP hematopoiesis as definitive, according to convention, although paradoxically it does not develop from intra-embryonic mesoderm or give rise to HSCs.

      Our definition of primitive and definitive waves is widely used in the field (e.g. PMID: 18204427; PMID: 28299650; PMID: 33681211). Definitive haematopoiesis, encompassing EMP, MLP, MPP and HSC, highlights their origin from haemogenic endothelium, generation of mature cells with adult characteristics from progenitors with multilineage potential and direct and indirect developmental contributions to the intra-embryonic and time-restricted generation of HSCs. 

      General comments 

      The authors make the following claims in the paper: 

      (1) The development of a protocol for hemogenic gastruloids (hGx) that recapitulates YS and AGMlike waves of blood from HE.

      (2) The protocol recapitulates both YS and EMP-MPP embryonic blood development 'with spatial and temporal accuracy'.

      (3) The protocol generates HSC precursors capable of short-term engraftment in an adrenal niche.

      (4) Overexpression of MNX1 in hGx transforms YS EMP to 'recapitulate patient transcriptional signatures'.

      (5) hGx is a model to study normal and leukaemic embryonic hematopoiesis. 

      There are major concerns with the manuscript. The statements and claims made by the authors are not supported by the data presented, data is overinterpreted, and the conclusions cannot be justified. Furthermore, the data is presented in a way that makes it difficult for the reader to follow the narrative, causing confusion. The authors have not discussed how their hGx compares to the previously published mouse embryoid body protocols used to model early development and hematopoiesis. Specific points 

      (1) It is claimed that HGxs capture cellularity and topography of developmental blood formation. The hGx protocol described in the manuscript is a modification of a previously published gastruloid protocol (Rossi et al 2022). The rationale for the protocol modifications is not fully explained or justified. There is a lack of novelty in the presented protocol as the only modifications appear to be the inclusion of Activin A and an extension of the differentiation period from 7 to 9 days of culture. No direct comparison has been made between the two versions of gastruloid differentiation to justify the changes.

      The Reviewer paradoxically claims that the protocol is not novel and that it differs from a previous publication in at least 2 ways – the patterning pulse and the length of the protocol. Of these, the patterning pulse is key. As documented in Fig. 1S1, we cannot obtain Flk1-GFP expression in the absence of Activin A (Fig. 1S1A), and the concentration of Activin A scales activity of the Flk1 locus (Fig. 1S1B). Expression of Flk1 is a fundamental step in haemato-endothelial specification and, accordingly, we do not see CD41 or CD45+ cells in the absence of Activin A. Furthermore, these markers also titrate with the dose of Activin A (in Fig. 1S1B).

      Also, in our hands, there is a clear time-dependent progression of marker expression, with sequential acquisition of CD41 and CD45, with the latter not detectable until 192h (Fig. 1C-D), another key difference relative to the Rossi et al (2022) protocol. We suggest, and present further evidence for in this rebuttal and the revised manuscript, that the 192h-timepoint captures the onset of AGM-like haematopoiesis. We have edited the manuscript to clarify the differences and novelty in our protocol (lines 132-143) and provided a more detailed comparison with the report from Rossi et al. (2022) in the Discussion (lines 574-586).

      The inclusion of Activin A at high concentration at the beginning of differentiation would be expected to pattern endoderm rather than mesoderm. BMP signaling is required to induce Flk1+ mesoderm, even in the presence of Wnt.

      Again, we call the Reviewer’s attention to Fig. 1S1A which clearly shows that Activin A (with no BMP added) is required for induction of Flk1 expression, in the presence of Wnt. Activin A in combination with Wnt, is used in other protocols of haemato-endothelial differentiation from pluripotent cells, with no BMP added in the same step of patterning and differentiation (PMID: 39227582; PMID: 39223325). In the latter protocol, we also call the Reviewer’s attention to the fact that a higher concentration of Activin A precludes the need for BMP4 addition. Finally, one of us has recently reported that Activin A, on its own, will induce Flk1, as well as other anterior mesodermal progenitors (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.01.11.632562v1). In addressing the Reviewer’s concerns with the dose of Activin A used, we titrated its concentration against activation of Flk1, confirming optimal Flk1-GFP expression at the 100ng/ml dose used in the manuscript. We have included this data in the manuscript in Figure 1S1B.                         

      FACS analysis of the hGx during differentiation is needed to demonstrate the co-expression of Flk1GFP and lineage markers such as CD34 to indicate patterning of endothelium from Flk1+ mesoderm. The FACS plots in Fig. 1 show C-Kit expression but very little VE-cadherin which suggests that CD34 is not induced. Early endoderm expresses C-Kit, CXCR4, and Epcam, but not CD34 which could account for the lack of vascular structures within the hGx as shown in Fig. 1E.

      We were surprised by the Reviewer’s comment that there are no endothelial structures in our haemogenic gastruloids. The presence of a Flk1-GFP+ network is visible in the GFP images in Fig. 1B, from 144h onwards, and is detailed in the revised Fig. 2A, which shows overlap between Flk1GFP and the endothelial marker CD31. In addition, our single-cell RNA-seq data, included in the manuscript, confirms the presence of endothelial cells with a developing endothelial, including arterial, programme. This is now presented in the revised Fig. 3B-D of the manuscript, which updates a representation in the original manuscript. In contrast with the Reviewer’s claims that no endothelial cells are formed, the data show that Kdr (Flk1)+ cells co-express Cdh5/VE-Cadherin and indeed Cd34, attesting to the presence of an endothelial programme. Arterial markers Efnb2, Flt1, and Dll4 are present. A full-blown programme, which also includes haemogenic markers including Sox17, Esam, Cd44 and Mecom is clear at early (144h) and, particularly at late (192h) timepoints in cells sorted on detection of surface C-Kit (Fig. 3B-E in the manuscript). To address the specific point by the Reviewer, we also document co-expression of Flk1-GFP, CD34 and/or CD31 by flow cytometry (Fig. 2S1A-B in the revised manuscript).

      To summarise new and revised data in the manuscript in relation to this point:

      Immunofluorescence staining showing the Flk1-GFP-defined vascular network in Figure 1E and co-expression of endothelial marker CD31 in Figure 2A. In text: lines 159-163; 178-180.

      Flow cytometry analysis of co-expression of Flk1-GFP with CD31 and CD34 in Figure 2S1AD, including controls. In text: 180-187.

      Real-time quantitative (q)PCR analysis showing time-dependent expression of haematoendothelial and arterial markers in Figure 2F (specifically Dll4 and Mecom). In text: 200-209.

      An improved representation of our scRNA-seq data highlighting key haemato-endothelial markers in Figure 3B-D. In text: 268-304

      (2) The protocol has been incompletely characterised, and the authors have not shown how they can distinguish between either wave of Yolk Sac (YS) hematopoiesis (primitive erythroid/macrophage and erythro-myeloid EMP) or between YS and intraembryonic Aorta-Gonad-Mesonephros (AGM) hematopoiesis. No evidence of germ layer specification has been presented to confirm gastruloid formation, organisation, and functional ability to mimic early development. Furthermore, differentiation of YS primitive and YS EMP stages of development in vitro should result in the efficient generation of CD34+ endothelial and hematopoietic cells. There is no flow cytometry analysis showing the kinetics of CD34 cell generation during differentiation. Benchmarking the hGx against developing mouse YS and embryo data sets would be an important verification. 

      The Reviewer is correct that we have not provided detailed characterisation of the different germ layers, as this was not the focus of the study. In that context, we were surprised by the earlier comment assuming co-expression of C-Kit, Cxcr4 and Epcam, which we did not show, while overlooking the endothelial programme reiterated above, which we have presented. Given our focus on haemato-endothelial specification, we have started the single-cell RNA-seq characterisation of the haemogenic gastruloid at 120h and have not looked specifically at earlier timepoints of embryo patterning. This said, we show the presence of neuroectodermal cells in cluster 9; on the other hand, cluster 7 includes hepatoblast-like cells, denoting endodermal specification (Supplementary File S2). However, in the absence of earlier timepoints and given the bias towards mesodermal specification, we expect that specification of ectodermal and endodermal programmes may be incomplete. 

      In respect of the contention regarding the capture of YS-like and AGM-like haematopoiesis, we had presented evidence in the original version of the manuscript that haemogenic cells generated during gastruloid differentiation, particularly at late 192h and 216h timepoints project onto highly purified CKit+ CD31+ Gfi1-expressing cells from mouse AGM (PMID: 38383534), providing support for at least partial recapitulation of the corresponding developmental stage. These projections are represented in Fig. 4A, right and 4S1C of the revised manuscript. In distinguishing between YS-like and AGM-like haematopoiesis, we call the Reviewer’s attention to the replotting of the single-cell RNA-seq data already in the manuscript, which we provided in response to point 1 (Fig. 3B-D and 3S2B), which highlights an increase in Sox17, but not Sox18, expression in the 192h haemogenic endothelium, which suggests an association with AGM haematopoiesis (PMID: 20228271). A significant association of Cd44 and Procr expression with the same time-point (Fig. 3B-D in the manuscript), further supports an AGM-like endothelial-to-haematopoietic transition at the 192h timepoint. We have re-analysed the scRNA-seq data to better represent the expression of these markers in Fig. 3A-E and S32B. We agree that it remains challenging to identify markers exclusive to AGM haematopoiesis, which is operationally equated with generation of transplantable haematopoietic stem cells. While HSC generation is a key event characteristic of the AGM, not all AGM haematopoiesis corresponds to HSCs, an important point in evaluating the data presented in the manuscript, and one that is acknowledged by us. The main text has been edited to clarify the experiments pertaining to distinguishing AGM and YS haematopoiesis, which are detailed in lines 180-187, 200-221, 268-304, and 315-356.

      Following on the Reviewer’s comments about Cd34, we also inspected co-expression of Cd34 with Cd41 and Cd45, the latter co-expression present in, although not necessarily exclusive to, AGM haematopoiesis. Reassuringly, we observed clear co-expression with both markers (Author response image 1), in addition to a CD41+CD34- population, which likely reflects YS EMP-independent erythropoiesis. Flow cytometry analysis of co-expression of CD31 and CD34 in CD41+ and CD45+ populations at 144h and 216h timepoints has been included in Fig. 2B-D, Fig. 2S1A-D, including controls. In text: 180-187. We have earlier on in the rebuttal highlighted the fact that marker expression is responsive to the levels of Activin A used in the patterning pulse, with the 100ng/ml Activin A used in our protocol superior to 75ng/ml.

      Author response image 1.

      Association of CD34 with CD41 and CD45 expression is Activin A-responsive and supports the presence of definitive haematopoiesis. A. Flow cytometry analysis of CD34 and CD41 expression in 216h-haemogenic gastruloids; two doses of Activin A were used in the patterning pulse with CHI99021 between 48-72h. FMO controls shown. B. Flow cytometry analysis of CD34 and CD45 at 216h in the same experimental conditions.

      Given the centrality of this point in comments by all the Reviewers, we have conducted projections of our single-cell RNA-seq data against two studies which (1) capture arterial and haemogenic specification in the para-splanchnopleura (pSP) and AGM region between E8.0 and E11 (Hou et al, PMID: 32203131), and (2) uniquely capture YS, AGM and FL progenitors and the AGM endothelial-tohaematopoietic transition (EHT) in the same scRNA-seq dataset (Zhu et al, PMID: 32392346). Focusing the analysis on the subsets of haemogenic gastruloid cells sorted as CD41+ (144h) C-Kit+ (144h and 192h) and CD45+ (192h and 216h) (now represented in Fig. 3A, and projected onto the studies in Fig. 4A), we show:

      (1) That a subset of haemato-endothelial cells from haemogenic gastruloids at 144h to 216h project onto intra-embryonic cells spanning E8.25 to E10 (revised Fig. 4A left and 4S1A). This is in agreement with our original interpretation that 216h are no later than the MPP/pre-HSC state of embryonic development, requiring further maturation to generate engrafting progenitors. We have nevertheless removed specific references to pre-HSC, and instead referred to HSPC/progenitors.

      (2) That haemogenic gastruloids contain YS-like (including EMP-like) and AGM-like haematopoietic cells (Fig. 4A centre and 4 S1B). Significantly, some of the cells, particularly CKit-sorted cells with a candidate endothelial and HE-like signature project onto AGM pre-HE and HE, as well as IAHC. Some 144h CD41+ and 192h CD45+ cells also project onto IAHC, suggesting that YS-like and AGM-like programmes arise independently and with partial timedependent organisation in the haemogenic gastruloid model. Later, predominantly 216h cells, have characteristics of MPP/LMPP-like cells from the FL, suggesting a progenitor wave of differentiation.

      Altogether, the data support the notion that haemogenic gastruloids capture YS and AGM haematopoiesis until E10, as suggested by us in the manuscript.This re-analysis of the scRNA-seq data which was indeed prompted by challenging and insightful comments from the Reviewers, has been incorporated in the manuscript as described above and further listed here:

      Re-clustering and highlights of specific markers in our scRNA-seq data in Figure 3A-E. In text: 268-304.

      Projections to mouse embryo datasets in Figure 4A (Figure 4S1A-C; Supplementary File 3). In text: 315-356. 

      Single-cell RNA sequencing was used to compare hGx with mouse AGM. The authors incorrectly conclude that ' ..specification of endothelial and HE cells in hGx follows with time-dependent developmental progression into putative AGM-like HE..' And, '...HE-projected hGx cells.......expressed Gata2 but not Runx1, Myb, or Gfi1b..' Hemogenic endothelium is defined by the expression of Runx1 and Gfli1b is downstream of Runx1.

      As a hierarchy of regulation, Gata2 precedes and drives Runx1 expression at the specification of HE (PMID: 17823307; PMID: 24297996), while Runx1 drives the EHT, upstream of Gfi1b in haematopoietic clusters (PMID: 34517413). Please note that the text segment the Reviewer refers to has been removed from the manuscript, as the analysis is no longer solely focused on projection to Thambyrajah et al (2024) data, and instead gained significantly from the projections on to the Hou et al (2020) and Zhu et al (2020) studies, as detailed above.

      (3) The hGx protocol 'generates hematopoietic SC precursors capable of short-term engraftment' is not supported by the data presented. Short-term engraftment would be confirmed by flow cytometric detection of hematopoietic cells within the recipient bone marrow, spleen, thymus, and peripheral blood that expressed the BFP transgene. This analysis was not provided. PCR detection of transcripts, following an unspecified number of amplification cycles, as shown in Figure 3G (incorrectly referred to as Figure 3F in the legend) is not acceptable evidence for engraftment.

      We provide the full flow cytometry analysis of spleen engraftment in the 5 mice which received implantation of 216h-haemogenic gastruloids in the adrenal gland and were analysed at 4 weeks; an additional (control) animal received adrenal injection of PBS (Fig. 4B-D in the revised manuscript). In this experiment, the bone marrow collection was limiting, and material was prioritised for PCR (Fig. 4C and full gels in 4S2C in the revised manuscript).

      We had previously provided only representative plots of flow cytometry analysis of bone marrow and spleen, which we described as low-level engraftment and were chosen conservatively. The analysis was meant to complement the genomic DNA PCR, where detection was present in only some of the replicates tested per animal. On this note, we confirm that PCR analysis used conventional 40 cycles; the sensitivity had already been shown in the earlier version of the manuscript and is again represented in Fig. 4S2B. We argue that the low level of cytometric and molecular engraftment at 4 weeks, from haemogenic gastruloid-derived progenitors that have not progressed beyond a stage equivalent to E10 (Fig. 4A and Supplementary File 3 in the revised manuscript from scRNAseq projections), and that we have described as requiring additional maturation in vivo, are not surprising. Indeed, as previously shown and now repeated in in Fig. 2B-E (controls in Fig. 2S1E-G) in the revised manuscript, no more than 7 CD45+CD144+ multipotent cells are present per haemogenic gastruloid. We are only able to implant 3 haemogenic gastruloids in the adrenal gland of each transplanted animal. 

      We have rephrased Results and Discussion in lines 359-415 and 588-621, respectively, to rectify the nature of the engraftment, which we now attribute more generically to progenitors, also in light of the developmental time we could capture in the gastruloids prior to implantation.

      Transplanted hGx formed teratoma-like structures, with hematopoietic cells present at the site of transplant only analysed histologically. Indeed, the quality of the images provided does not provide convincing validation that donor-derived hematopoietic cells were present in the grafts.

      As stated in the text, the images mean to illustrate that the haemogenic gastruloids developed in situ. Further analysis motivated by the Reviewers’ comments and indeed a subsequent experiment with analysis of engraftment at a later timepoint of 8 weeks (revised Fig. 4E and 4 S2F-G) did not show a direct correspondence between engraftment and in vivo development or expansion, although this occurs in some cases. To be clearer, the observation of donor-derived blood cells in the implanted haemogenic gastruloids would not correspond to engraftment, as we have amply demonstrated that they have generated blood cells in vitro. There is no evidence that there are remaining pluripotent cells in the haemogenic gastruloid after 9 days of differentiation, and it is therefore not clear that the structures observed are teratomas. We specifically comment on this point in the revised manuscript – lines 601-607.

      There is no justification for the authors' conclusion that '... the data suggest that 216h hGx generate AGM-like pre-HSC capable of at least short-term multilineage engraftment upon maturation...'. Indeed, this statement is in conflict with previous studies demonstrating that pre-HSCs in the dorsal aorta of the mouse embryo are immature and actually incapable of engraftment.

      We have clearly stated that we do not see haematopoietic engraftment through transplantation of dissociated haemogenic gastruloids, which reach the E10 state containing pre-HSC (revised Fig 4A, 4S1A and Supplementary File 3). Instead, we observed rare myelo-erythroid (revised Fig. 4S2F-G) and myelo-lymphoid (revised Fig. 4E) engraftment upon in vivo maturation of haemogenic gastruloids with preserved 3D organisation. These statements are not contradictory. Nevertheless, we have now more cautiously attributed engraftment to the present of progenitors as a generic designation, and not to pre-HSC (lines 412-414 and 588-592 in the revised manuscript).

      The statement '...low-level production of engrafting cells recapitulates their rarity in vivo, in agreement with the embryo-like qualities of the gastruloid system....' is incorrect. Firstly, no evidence has been provided to show the hGx has formed a dorsal aorta facsimile capable of generating cells with engrafting capacity. Secondly, although engrafting cells are rare in the AGM, approximately one per embryo, they are capable of robust and extensive engraftment upon transplantation.

      As indicated above, the statement in lines 412-414 now reads “Engraftment is erythromyeloid at 4 weeks and lympho-myeloid at 8 weeks, reflecting different classes of progenitors, putatively of YS-like and AGM-like affiliation.” To be clear, with our original statement we meant to highlight that the production of definitive AGM-like haematopoietic progenitors (not all of which are engrafting) in haemogenic gastruloids does not correspond to non-physiological single-lineage programming. We did and do not claim that we achieved production of HSC, which would be long-term engrafting.

      (4) Expression MNX1 transcript and protein in hematopoietic cells in MNX1 rearranged acute myeloid leukaemia (AML) is one cause of AML in infants. In the hGX model of this disease, Mnx1 is overexpressed in the mESCs that are used to form gastruloids. Mnx1 overexpression seems to confer an overall growth advantage on the hGx and increase the serial replating capacity of the small number of hematopoietic cells that are generated. The inefficiency with which the hGx model generates hematopoietic cells makes it difficult to model this disease. The poor quality of the cytospin images prevents accurate identification of cells. The statement that the kit-expressing cells represent leukemic blast cells is not sufficiently validated to support this conclusion. What other stem cell genes are expressed? Surface kit expression also marks mast cells, frequently seen in clonogenic assays of blood cells. Flow cytometric and gene expression analyses using known markers would be required.

      The haemogenic gastruloid model generates haematopoietic and haemato-endothelial cells. MNX1 expands C-Kit+ cells at 144h, which we show to have a haemato-endothelial signature (see revised Fig. 3A-E, Supplementary File 2). We have added additional flow cytometry data showing that the replating cells from MNX1 express CD31 (Figure 6S1A-B).

      Serial replating of CFC assays is a conventional in vitro assay of leukaemia transformation. Critically, colony replating is not maintained in EV control cells, attesting to the transformation potential of MNX1. Although we have not fully-traced the cellular hierarchy of MNX1-driven transformation in the haemogenic gastruloid system, the in vitro replating expands a C-Kit+ cell (revised Fig. 6E), which reflects the surface phenotype of the leukaemia, also recapitulated in the mouse model initiated by MNX1-overexpressing FL cells. Importantly, it recapitulates the transcriptional profile of MNX1leukaemia patients (revised Fig. 7C), which is uniquely expressed by MNX1144h and replated colony cells, but not to MNX1 216h gastruloid cells, arguing against a generic signature of MNX1 overexpression (revised Fig. 7B). Importantly, the MNX1-transformation of haemogenic gastruloid cells is superior to the FL leukaemia model at capturing the unique transcriptional features of MNX1-driven leukaemia, distinct from other forms of AML in the same age group (Fig 7 S1D-F). It is possible that this corresponds to a pre-leukaemia event, and we will explore this in future studies, which are beyond the proof-of-principle nature of this paper.

      (5) In human infant MNX1 AML, the mutation is thought to arise at the fetal liver stage of development. There is no evidence that this developmental stage is mimicked in the hGx model.

      We never claim that the haemogenic gastruloid model mimics the foetal liver. We propose that susceptibility to MNX1 is at the HE-to-EMP transition. Moreover, and importantly, contrary to the Reviewer’s statement, there is no evidence in the literature that the mutation arises in the foetal liver stage, just that the mutation arises before birth (PMID: 38806630), which is different. In a mouse model of MNX1 overexpression, the authors achieve leukaemia engraftment upon MNX1 overexpression in foetal liver, but not in bone marrow cells (PMID: 37317878). This is in agreement with a vulnerability of embryonic / foetal, but not adult cells to the MNX1 expression caused by the translocation. However, haematopoietic cells in the foetal liver originate from YS and AGM precursors, so the origin of the MNX1susceptible cells can be in those locations, rather than the foetal liver itself.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary: 

      In this manuscript, the authors develop an exciting new hemogenic gastruloid (hGX) system, which they claim reproduces the sequential generation of various blood cell types. The key advantage of this cellular system would be its potential to more accurately recapitulate the spatiotemporal emergence of hematopoietic progenitors within their physiological niche compared to other available in vitro systems. The authors present a large set of data and also validate their new system in the context of investigating infant leukemia. 

      Strengths: 

      The development of this new in vitro system for generating hematopoietic cells is innovative and addresses a significant drawback of current in vitro models. The authors present a substantial dataset to characterize this system, and they also validate its application in the context of investigating infant leukemia. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The thorough characterization and full demonstration that the cells produced truly represent distinct waves of hematopoietic progenitors are incomplete. The data presented to support the generation of late yolk sac (YS) progenitors, such as lymphoid cells, and aortic-gonad-mesonephros (AGM)-like progenitors, including pre-hematopoietic stem cells (pre-HSCs), by this system are not entirely convincing. Given that this is likely the manuscript's most crucial claim, it warrants further scrutiny and direct experimental validation. Ideally, the identity of these progenitors should be further demonstrated by directly assessing their ability to differentiate into lymphoid cells or fully functional HSCs. Instead, the authors primarily rely on scRNA-seq data and a very limited set of markers (e.g., Ikzf1 and Mllt3) to infer the identity and functionality of these cells. Many of these markers are shared among various types of blood progenitors, and only a well-defined combination of markers could offer some assurance of the lymphoid and pre-HSC nature of these cells, although this would still be limited in the absence of functional assays.

      The identification of a pre-HSC-like CD45⁺CD41⁻/lo C-Kit⁺VE-Cadherin⁺ cell population is presented as evidence supporting the generation of pre-HSCs by this system, but this claim is questionable. This FACS profile may also be present in progenitors generated in the yolk sac such as early erythromyeloid progenitors (EMPs). It is only within the AGM context, and in conjunction with further functional assays demonstrating the ability of these cells to differentiate into HSCs and contribute to long-term repopulation, that this profile could be strongly associated with pre-HSCs. In the absence of such data, the cells exhibiting this profile in the current system cannot be conclusively identified as true pre-HSCs.

      We present 2 additional pieces of evidence to support our claims that we capture YS and AGM stages of haematopoietic development.

      (I) In the new Figures 4A and 4 S1A-C and Supplementary File 3 in the revised manuscript, we project our single-cell RNA-seq data onto (1) developing intra-embryonic pSP and AGM between E8 and E11 (Fig. 4A left, 4S1A) and (2) a single-cell RNA-seq study of HE development which combines haemogenic and haematopoietic cells from the YS, the developing HE and IAHC in the AGM, and FL (Fig. 4A centre, 4S1B). Our data maps E8.25-E10, and captures YS EMP and erythroid and myeloid progenitors, as well as AGM pre-HE, HE and IAHC, with some cells matching HSPC and LMPP, as suggested by the projection onto the Thambyrajah et al data set (already presented in the previous version of the manuscript, and now in Fig. 4A right and 4 S1C). The projection of the scRNA-seq data in presented in lines 314-355 of the revised manuscript. The scRNA-seq data itself was refocused on haemato-endothelial programmes as presented in the revised Fig. 3A-E, described in lines 267-303.

      (II) Given the difficulty in finding markers that specifically associate with AGM haematopoiesis, we inspected the possibility of capturing different regulatory requirements at different stages of gastruloid development mirroring differential effects in the embryo. Polycomb EZH2 is specifically required for EMP differentiation in the YS, but does not affect AGM-derived haematopoiesis; it is also not required for primitive erythroid cells (PMID: 29555646; PMID: 34857757). We treated haemogenic gastruloids from 120h onwards with either DMSO (0.05%) or GSK126 (0.5uM), and inspected the cellularity of gastruloids at 144h, which we equate with YS-EMP, and 216h – putatively AGM haematopoiesis. We show that EZH2 inhibition / GSK126 treatment specifically reduces %CD41+ cells at 144h, but does not reduce %CD41+ or %CD45+ cells at 216h. We have included this experiment in the manuscript in Fig. 2 S2B-C (in text: 209-221).

      These data, together with the scRNA-seq projections described, provide evidence to our claim that 144h haemogenic gastruloids capture YS EMPs, while CD41+ and CD45+ cells isolated at 216h reflect AGM progenitors. We cannot conclude as to the functional nature of the AGM cells from this experiment. The main text has been edited to clarify the experiments pertaining to distinguishing AGM and YS haematopoiesis (lines 180-187; 200-221; 268-304; 315-356).

      The engraftment data presented are also not fully convincing, as the observed repopulation is very limited and evaluated only at 4 weeks post-transplantation. The cells detected after 4 weeks could represent the progeny of EMPs that have been shown to provide transient repopulation rather than true HSCs. 

      In the original version of the manuscript, we stated that there is low level engraftment and did not claim to have generated HSC. Instead, we described cells with short-term engraftment potential. We agree with the Reviewer that the cells we show in the manuscript at 4 weeks could be EMPs (revised Fig. 4B-E and 4 S2D-G). Additionally, we now have 8-week analysis of implant recipients, in which we observed, again low-level, a multi-lineage engraftment of the recipient bone marrow in 1:3 recipients (revised Fig. 4B-E and 4S2F-H). This engraftment is myeloid-lymphoid and therefore likely to have originated in a later progenitor. To be clear, we do not claim that this corresponds to the presence of HSC. It nevertheless supports the maturation of progenitors with engraftment potential. Limiting amounts of material was prioritised for flow cytometry stainings, not allowing PCR analysis. We rephrased Results and Discussion in lines 359-414 and 588-621, respectively, to rectify the nature of the engraftment.      

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):  

      In this study, the authors employ a mouse ES-derived "hemogenic gastruloid" model which they generated and which they claim to be able to deconvolute YS and AGM stages of blood production in vitro. This work could represent a valuable resource for the field. However, in general, I find the conclusions in this manuscript poorly supported by the data presented. Importantly, it isn't clear what exactly are the "YS" and the "AGM"-like stages identified in the culture and where is the data that backs up this claim. In my opinion, the data in this manuscript lack convincing evidence that can enable us to identify what kind of hematopoietic progenitor cells are generated in this system. Therefore, the statement that "our study has positioned the MNX1-OE target cell within the YS-EMP stage (line 540)" is not supported by the evidence presented in this study. Overall, the system seems to be very preliminary and requires further optimization before those claims can be made.

      Specific comments below: 

      (1) The flow cytometric analysis of gastruloids presented in Figure 1 C-D is puzzling. There is a large % of C-Kit+ cells generated, but few VE-Cad+ Kit+ double positive cells. Similarly, there are many CD41+ cells, but very few CD45+ cells, which one would expect to appear toward the end of the differentiation process if blood cells are actually generated. It would be useful to present this analysis as consecutive gating (i.e. evaluating CD41 and CD45 within VE-Cad+ Kit+ cells, especially if the authors think that the presence of VE-Cad+ Kit+ cells is suggestive of EHT). The quantification presented in D is misleading as the scale of each graph is different.

      Fig. 1C-D provide an overview of haemogenic markers during the timecourse of haemogenic gastruloid differentiation, and does indeed show a late up-regulation of CD45, as the Reviewer points out would be expected. The %CD45+ cells is indeed low. However, we should point out that the haemogenic gastruloid protocol, although biased towards mesodermal outputs, does not aim to achieve pure haematopoietic specification, but rather place it in its embryo-like context. We refute that the scale is misleading: it is a necessity to represent the data in a way that is interpretable by the reader: and we made sure from the outset that the gates (in C) are truly representative and annotated, as are the plot axes (in D). Consecutive gating at the 216h-timepoint is shown and quantified in Fig. 2S1D-F, or in the alternative consecutive gating suggested by the Reviewer, in Author response iamge 2 below. At the request of Reviewer 1, we also analysed CD31 and CD34 within CD41 and CD45 populations, again as validation of the emergent haematopoietic character of the cells obtained. This new analysis is shown in revised Fig. 2B, quantified in 2C.

      Author response image 2.

      Flow cytometry analysis of VE-cadherin+ cells in haemogenic gastruloids at 216h of the differentiation protocol, probing co-expression of CD45, CD41 and C-Kit.

      (2) The imaging presented in Figure 1E is very unconvincing. C-Kit and CD45 signals appear as speckles and not as membrane/cell surfaces as they should. This experiment should be repeated and nuclear stain (i.e. DAPI) should be included.

      We included the requested immunofluorescence staining in Figure 1E (216h). We also show the earlier timepoint of 192h here as Author response image 3. In text: lines 158-162.

      Author response image 3.

      Confocal images of haematopoietic production in haemogenic gastruloids. Wholemount, cleared haemogenic gastruloids were stained for CD45 (pseudo-coloured red) and C-Kit antigens (pseudo-coloured yellow) with indirect staining, as described in the manuscript. Flk1-GFP signal is shown in green. Nuclei are contrasted with DAPI. (A) 192h. (B) 216h.

      (3) Overall, I am not convinced that hematopoietic cells are consistently generated in these organoids. The authors should sort hematopoietic cells and perform May-Grunwald Giemsa stainings as they did in Figure 6 to confirm the nature of the blood cells generated.

      It is factual that the data are reproducible and complemented by functional assays shown in revised Fig. 2D-E, which clearly demonstrate haematopoietic output. The single-cell RNA-seq data also show expression of a haematopoietic programme, which we have complemented with biologically independent qRT-PCR analysis of the expression of key endothelial and haematopoietic marker and regulatory genes (revised Fig. 2F; in text: 200-209). As requested, we include Giemsa-Wright’s stained cytospins obtained at 216h to illustrate haematopoietic output. These are shown in revised Fig. 2S2A, in text: lines 194-199. Inevitably, the cytospins will be inconclusive as to the presence of endothelial-tohaematopoietic transition or the generation of haematopoietic stem/progenitor cells, as these cells do not have a distinctive morphology.

      (4) The scRNAseq in Figure 2 is very difficult to interpret. Specific points related to this: - Cluster annotation in Figure 2a is missing and should be included. 

      Why do the heatmaps show the expression of genes within sorted cells? Couldn't the authors show expression within clusters of hematopoietic cells as identified transcriptionally (which ones are they? See previous point)? Gene names are illegible.

      I see no expression of Hlf or Myb in CD45+ cells (Figure 2G). Hlf is not expressed by any of the populations examined (panels E, F, G). This suggests no MPP or pre-HSC are generated in the culture, contrary to what is stated in lines 242-245. (PMID 31076455 and 34589491).Later on, it is again stated that "hGx cells... lacked detection of HSC genes like Hlf, Gfi1, or Hoxa9" (lines 281-283). To me, this is proof of the absence of AGM-like hematopoiesis generated in those gastruloids.

      For a combination of logistic and technical reasons, we performed single-cell RNA-seq using the Smart-Seq2 platform, which is inherently low throughput. We overcame the issue of cell coverage by complementing whole-gastruloid transcriptional profiling at successive time-points with sorting of subpopulations of cells based on individual markers documented in Fig. 1. We clearly stated which platform was used as well as the number and type of cells profiled (Fig. 3S1 and lines 226-241 of the revised manuscript), and our approach is standard. Following suggestions of the Reviewers to further focus our analysis on the haemogenic cellular differentiation within the gastruloids, we revised the presentation of the scRNA-seq data to now provide UMAP projections with representation and quantification of individual genes, including the ones queried by the Reviewer in Fig. 3 and respective supplements. Specifically, re-clustering and highlighting of specific markers are shown in Figure 3A-D and presented in lines 267-303 of the revised manuscript. Complementary independent real-time quantitative (q)PCR analysis showing time-dependent expression of endothelial and haematopoietic markers is now in Figure 2F. In text: 200-208.

      (5) Mapping of scRNA-Seq data onto the dataset by Thambyrajah et al. is not proof of the generation of AGM HE. The dataset they are mapping to only contains AGM cells, therefore cells do not have the option to map onto something that is not AGM. The authors should try mapping to other publicly available datasets also including YS cells.

      We have done this and the data are presented in Figure 4A (Figure 4S1A) and Supplementary File. In text: 314-355. As detailed in response to Reviewer 1, we have conducted projections of our single-cell RNA-seq data against two studies which (1) capture arterial and haemogenic specification in the para-splanchnopleura (pSP) and AGM region between E8.0 and E11 (Hou et al, PMID: 32203131) (revised Fig. 4A and 4 S1A), and (2) uniquely capture YS, AGM and FL progenitors and the AGM endothelial-to-haematopoietic transition (EHT) in the same scRNA-seq dataset (Zhu et al, PMID: 32392346) (revised Fig. 4A and 4 S1B). Specifically in answering the Reviewers’ point, we show that different subsets of haemogenic gastruloid cells sorted on haemogenic surface markers C-Kit, CD41 and CD45 cluster onto pre-HE and HE, intra-aortic clusters and FL progenitor compartments, and to YS EMP and erythroid and myeloid progenitors. This lends support to our claim that the haemogenic gastruloid system specifies both YS-like and AGM-like cells. Please note that we now do point out that some CD41+ cells at 144h project onto IAC, as do cells at the later timepoints, suggesting that AGM-like and YS-EMP-like waves may overlap at the 144h timepoint (lines…). In the future, we will address specific location of these cells, but that corresponds to a largescale spatial transcriptomics analysis requiring extensive optimisation for section capture which is beyond the scope of this manuscript and this revision. 

      (6) Conclusions in Figure 3, named "hGx specify cells with preHSC characteristics" are not supported by the data presented here. Again, I am not convinced that hematopoietic cells can be efficiently generated in this system, and certainly not HSCs or pre-HSCs.

      We have provided evidence in the original manuscript, and now through additional experiments, that there is haematopoietic specification, including of progenitor cells, in the haemogenic gastruloid system. Molecular markers are shown in revised Fig. 2F and Fig. 3 and supplements; CFC assays are shown in revised Fig. 2D-E; cytospins are in revised Fig. 2 S2A; further analysis of 4-week implants and new analysis of 8-week implants (discussed below) are in revised Fig. 4 B-D and Fig. 4 S2 and we discussed the new scRNA-seq projections above. Importantly, we have never claimed, and again do not, that haemogenic gastruloids generate HSC. We accept the Reviewer’s comment that we have not provided sufficient evidence for the specification of pre-HSC-like cells and accordingly now refer more generically and conservatively to progenitors.

      FACS analysis in 3A is again very unconvincing. I do not think the population identified as C-Kit+ CD144+ is real. Also, why not try gating the other way around, as commonly done (e.g. VE-Cad+ Kit+ and then CD41/CD45)?

      Our gating strategy is not unconventional, which was done from a more populated gate onto the less abundant one to ensure that the results are numerically more robust. In the case of haemogenic gastruloids, unlike the AGM preparations the Reviewer may be referring to, CD41 and CD45+ cells are more abundant as there is no circulation of more differentiated haematopoietic cells away from the endothelial structures. This said, we did perform the gating as suggested (Rev Fig. 2), indeed confirming that most VE-cad+ Kit+ cells are CD45+. Interestingly VE-cad+Kit- are predominantly CD41+, reinforcing the haematopoietic nature of these cells.

      The authors must have tried really hard, but the lack of short- or long-engraftment in a number of immunodeficient mouse models (lines 305-313) really suggests that no blood progenitors are generated in their system. I am not familiar with the adrenal gland transplant system, but it seems like a very non-physiological system for trying to assess the maturation of putative pre-HSCs. The data supporting the engraftment of these mice, essentially seen only by PCR and in some cases with a very low threshold for detection, are very weak, and again unconvincing. It is stated that "BFP engraftment of the Spl and BM by flow cytometry was very low level albeit consistently above control (Fig. S4E)" (lines 337-338). I do not think that two dots in a dot plot can be presented as evidence of engraftment.

      We have presented the data with full disclosure and do not deny that the engraftment achieved is low-level and short-term, indicating incomplete maturation of definitive haematopoietic progenitors in the current haemogenic gastruloid system. Indeed, by not wanting to overstate the finding, we were deliberately conservative in our representative flow cytometry plots and focused on the PCR for sensitivity. We now present the full flow cytometry analysis for spleen where we preserved more cells after the genomic DNA extraction (revised Fig. 4C) and call the Reviewer’s attention to the fact that detection of BFP+ cells by PCR and flow cytometry in the recipient animals is consistent between the 2 methods (revised Fig. 4C and D; full gels previously presented now in Fig. 4S2C; sensitivity analysis was also previously available and is now in Fig. 4S2B). In addition, we have now also been able to detect low-level myelo-lymphoid engraftment in the bone marrow and spleen 8 weeks after adrenal implantation, again suggesting the presence of a small number of definitive haematopoietic progenitors that potentially mature from the 3 haemogenic gastruloids implanted (Fig. 4E and 4 S2F-G in the revised manuscript. We rephrased Results and Discussion at lines 359-414 and 589-621, respectively, to rectify the nature of the engraftment which we attribute to progenitors.

      (7) Given the above, I find that the foundations needed for extracting meaningful data from the system when perturbed are very shaky at best. Nevertheless, the authors proceed to overexpress MNX1 by LV transduction, a system previously shown to transform fetal liver cells, mimicking the effect of the t(7;12) AML-associated translocation. Comments on this section:

      The increase in the size of the organoid when MNX1 is expressed is a very unspecific finding and not necessarily an indication of any hematopoietic effect of MNX1 OE.

      We agree with the Reviewer on this point; it is nevertheless a reproducible observation which we thought relevant to describe for completeness and data reproducibility.

      The mild increase of cKit+ cells (Figure 4E) at the 144hr timepoint and the lack of any changes in CD41+ or CD45+ cells suggests that the increase in Kit+ cells % is not due to any hematopoietic effect of MNX1 OE. No hematopoietic GO categories are seen in RNA seq analysis, which supports this interpretation. Could it be that just endothelial cells are being generated?

      The Reviewer is correct that the MNX1-overexpressing cells have a strong endothelial signature, which is present in patients (revised Fig. 5A). We investigated a potential link with C-Kit by staining cells from the replating colonies during the process of in vitro transformation with CD31. We observed that 40-50% of C-Kit+ cells (20-30% total colony cells) co-expressed CD31, at least at early plating. These cells co-exist with haematopoietic cells, namely Ter119+ cells, as expected from the YSlike erythroid and EMP-like affiliation of haematopoietic output from 144h-haemogenic gastruloids. These data are included in Fig. 6S1A-B (in text 506-507) of the revised manuscript.

      (8) There seems to be a relatively convincing increase in replating potential upon MNX1-OE, but this experiment has been poorly characterized. What type of colonies are generated? What exactly is the "proportion of colony forming cells" in Figures 5B-D? The colony increase is accompanied by an increase in Kit+ cells; however, the flow cytometry analysis has not been quantified.

      Given the inability to replate control EV cells, there is not a population to compare with in terms of quantification. The level of C-Kit+ represented in Fig. 6E of the revised manuscript is achieved at plate 2 or 3 (depending on the experiment), both of which are significantly enriched for colony-forming cells relative to control (revised Fig. 6B, D).  

      (9) Do hGx cells engraft upon MNX1-OE? This experiment, which appears not to have been performed, is essential to conclude that leukemic transformation has occurred.

      For the purpose of this study, we are satisfied with confirmation of in vitro transformation potential of MNX1 haemogenic gastruloids, which can be used for screening purposes. Although interesting, in vivo leukaemia engraftment from haemogenic gastruloids is beyond the scope of this study.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Minor comments

      (a) I find the denomination "hGx" very confusing as it would suggest that these gastruloids are human, whereas, in fact, they are murine.

      We agree with the Reviewer on the confusing nomenclature and have edited the manuscript to call “haemGx” instead.

      (b) I find the presence of mast cells in CFC of MNX1-OE cultures very puzzling as this does not bear any resemblance to human leukemia.

      We detect an enrichment of mast cell transcriptional programmes, as defined by the cell type repositories. While it is not mast cells to represent leukaemic cells in patients, this ontology is likely to reflect the developmental stage and origin of progenitors which are affected by MNX1.

      (2) I have a few suggestions to improve figures and tables clarity, to help readers better follow the data presented.

      (a) To enhance readability, it would be beneficial to highlight the genes mentioned in the text within the scRNA-seq figures. Many figures currently display over 30-40 genes in small font sizes, making it difficult to quickly locate specific genes discussed in the text. Additionally, implementing a colorcoding system to categorize these genes according to their proposed lineages would improve clarity and organization.

      We have now performed major re-organisation and re-analyses of the scRNA-seq data, which we believe has improved the readability and clarity of the corresponding sections of the manuscript.

      (b) The data presented in Supplementary Table 1, along with other supplementary tables, are challenging to interpret due to insufficient annotations. Enhancing these tables with clearer and more detailed annotations would significantly improve clarity and aid readers in understanding the supplementary materials.

      Descriptive text has been added to accompany each Supplementary File to aid in understanding the results reported therein.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      In addition to what was written in the public review, I would suggest the authors simplify and shorten the text. Currently, a lot of unnecessary detail is included which makes the story very hard to follow. Moreover, the authors should modify the figures to make them more comprehensible, especially for RNA-seq data.

      We have significantly re-arranged and shortened parts of the manuscript, particularly by focusing the Discussion. Results presentation has also been improved through additional analysis and graphic representation of the scRNA-seq data, which we believe has improved the readability and clarity.s

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review)

      In this manuscript, Weiguang Kong et al. investigate the role of immunoglobulin M (IgM) in antiviral defense in the teleost largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides). The study employs an IgM depletion model, viral infection experiments, and complementary in vitro assays to explore the role of IgM in systemic and mucosal immunity. The authors conclude that IgM is crucial for both systemic and mucosal antiviral defense, highlighting its role in viral neutralization through direct interactions with viral particles. The study's findings have theoretical implications for understanding immunoglobulin function across vertebrates and practical relevance for aquaculture immunology.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript applies multiple complementary approaches, including IgM depletion, viral infection models, and histological and gene expression analyses, to address an important immunological question. The study challenges established views that IgT is primarily responsible for mucosal immunity, presenting evidence for a dual role of IgM at both systemic and mucosal levels. If validated, the findings have evolutionary significance, suggesting the conserved role of IgM as an antiviral effector across jawed vertebrates for over 500 million years. The practical implications for vaccine strategies targeting mucosal immunity in fish are noteworthy, addressing a key challenge in aquaculture.

      Weaknesses:

      Several conceptual and technical issues undermine the strength of the evidence:<br /> Monoclonal Antibody (MoAb) Validation: The study relies heavily on a monoclonal antibody to deplete IgM, but its specificity and functionality are not adequately validated. The epitope recognized by the antibody is not identified, and there is no evidence excluding cross-reactivity with other isotypes. Mass spectrometry, immunoprecipitation, or Western blot analysis using tissue lysates with varying immunoglobulin expression levels would strengthen the claim of IgM-specific depletion.<br /> IgM Depletion Kinetics: The rapid depletion of IgM from serum and mucus (within one day) is unexpected and inconsistent with prior literature. Additional evidence, such as Western blot analyses comparing treated and control fish, is necessary to confirm this finding.

      Novelty of Claims: The manuscript claims a novel role for IgM in viral neutralization, despite extensive prior literature demonstrating this role in fish. This overstatement detracts from the contribution of the study and requires a more accurate contextualization of the findings.

      Support for IgM's Crucial Role: The mortality data following IgM depletion do not fully support the claim that IgM is indispensable for antiviral defense. The survival of IgM-depleted fish remains high (75%) compared to non-primed controls (~50%), suggesting that other immune components may compensate for IgM loss

      .<br /> Presentation of IgM Depletion Model: The study describes the IgM depletion model as novel, although similar models have been previously published (e.g., Ding et al., 2023). This should be clarified to avoid overstating its novelty.

      While the manuscript attempts to address an important question in teleost immunology, the current evidence is insufficient to fully support the authors' conclusions. Addressing the validation of the monoclonal antibody, re-evaluating depletion kinetics, and tempering claims of novelty would strengthen the study's impact. The findings, if rigorously validated, have important implications for understanding the evolution of vertebrate immunity and practical applications in fish health management.

      This work is of interest to immunologists, evolutionary biologists, and aquaculture researchers. The methodological framework, once validated, could be valuable for studying immunoglobulin function in other non-model organisms and for developing targeted vaccine strategies. However, the current weaknesses limit its broader applicability and impact.

      We would like to thank Reviewer for the helpful comments. As the reviewer suggested, we verified the specificity of anti-bass IgM MoAb using multiple well-established experimental approaches, including mass spectrometry analysis, western blot, flow cytometry, and in vivo IgM depletion models. Additionally, we included western blot analyses to further confirm the IgM depletion kinetics. Moreover, we carefully revised any overstated claims in the original manuscript and incorporated the valuable suggestions of the reviewer in the Introduction and Discussion sections to enhance the clarity and rigor of our work.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Experiments and Data Validation:

      Monoclonal Antibody Validation:

      Provide detailed validation of the monoclonal antibody (MoAb) used for IgM depletion.Perform immunoprecipitation followed by mass spectrometry to confirm the specificity of the MoAb and identify any off-target interactions. Conduct Western blot analysis using tissue lysates with varying IgM, IgT, and IgD expression to demonstrate specificity. Include controls, such as a group treated with a control antibody of the same isotype, to confirm the depletion specificity and effects. Present data on the binding site of the MoAb and confirm it targets IgM.

      We thank the reviewer for this constructive comment and have carried out a comprehensive validation of anti-bass IgM monoclonal antibody (MoAb).

      Validation of anti-bass IgM MoAb by Mass Spectrometry

      To validate the specificity of anti-bass IgM MoAb, target proteins were immunoprecipitated from bass serum using IgM MoAb-coupled CNBr-activated Sepharose 4B beads, followed by mass spectrometry analysis to verify exclusive IgM heavy-chain identification (Figure 3–figure supplement 1A). Quantitative mass spectrometry verified the antibody’s specificity, with IgM heavy-chain peptides representing 97.3% of total signal, indicating negligible off-target reactivity. This high target specificity was further supported by the no detectable cross-reactivity to IgT/IgD (Figure 3–figure supplement 1B). Moreover, the 72% sequence coverage (Figure 3–figure supplement 1C) and confirmed LC-MS/MS spectra of IgM peptides (Figure 3–figure supplement 1D) further validated target selectivity.

      Validation of anti-bass IgM MoAb by western blot and flow cytometry

      We compared the anti-bass IgM MoAb with an isotype control (mouse IgG1) under both non-reducing and reducing serum immunoblots. The western blot results showed that the developed MoAb bound specifically to IgM in largemouth bass serum. Owing to the structural diversity of fish IgM isoforms, denatured non-reducing electrophoresis typically yields multiple bands with varying molecular weights (Rombout et al., 1993; Ye et al., 2010). Immunoblot analysis revealed multiple bands with varying molecular weights under non-reducing conditions, with the main band ranging from 700 to 800 kDa and a distinct ~70 kDa band under reducing conditions (Figure 3–figure supplement 2A). Notably, the isotype control showed no detectable bands under both non-reducing and reducing conditions (Figure 3–figure supplement 2A). Additionally, we analyzed tissue lysates from various sources (i.e., Spleen, skin, gill, and gut) and observed consistently recognized bands at identical positions and sizes, whereas the isotype control showed no detectable bands (Figure 3–figure supplement 2B-F).

      Next, we performed flow cytometry analysis to confirm antibody specificity. In largemouth bass head kidney leukocytes, IgM<sup>+</sup> B cells accounted for 28.56% of the population, compared to only 0.41% for the isotype control (Figure 3–figure supplement 2G). Following flow sorting of negative and positive cell populations, we extracted RNA from equal cell numbers. Gene expression analysis revealed high expression of IgM and IgD in the positive population, while IgT and T cell markers were absent (Figure 3–figure supplement 2H and I). These results collectively demonstrate that the monoclonal antibody specifically targets largemouth bass IgM.

      Validation of the depletion specificity and effects using an isotype-matched control antibody

      Largemouth bass (~3 to 5 g) were intraperitoneally injected with 300 µg of mouse anti-bass IgM monoclonal antibody (MoAb, clone 66, IgG1) or an isotype control (mouse IgG1, Abclonal, China). The concentration of IgM in the serum and gut mucus from these MoAb-treated fish was measured by western blot. Our results indicated that anti-bass IgM treatment led to a marked reduction in IgM protein levels in serum (Author response image 1A) and gut mucus (Author response image 1B) from day 1 post-treatment, in contrast to control fish treated with an isotype-matched control antibody.

      Author response image 1.

      Validation of the depletion specificity and effects using an isotype-matched control antibody. (A, B) The depletion effects of IgM from the serum (A) or gut mucus (B) of control or IgM‐depleted fish was detected by western blot. Iso: Isotype group; Dep: IgM‐depleted group.

      We fully agree with the reviewer that epitope characterization would further validate and elucidate the specificity of IgM MoAb. In the present study, we have demonstrated the antibody's IgM-specific binding through multiple classic experimental methods: (1) mass spectrometry analysis, (2) western blot analysis, (3) flow cytometry analysis, and (4) in vivo IgM depletion models. These results collectively support the conclusion that our MoAb specifically targets IgM. We feel that conformational epitope mapping requires structural biology approaches are out of the scope of this work, although future studies should address them in detail.

      Kinetics of IgM Depletion:

      Provide additional evidence for the observed rapid depletion of IgM from serum and mucus within one day, as this is inconsistent with previous findings. Include Western blot results to confirm IgM depletion kinetics.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. Previous studies have demonstrated significant differences in the depletion efficiency and persistence of IgM<sup>+</sup> B cells between warm-water and cold-water fish species. In Nile tilapia (Oreochromis niloticus), a warm-water species, administration of 20 µg of anti-IgM antibody resulted in a near-complete depletion of IgM<sup>+</sup> B cells within 9 days (Li et al., 2023). In contrast, rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss), a cold-water species, required significantly higher doses (200–300 µg) to achieve similar depletion, which persisted in both blood and gut from week 1 up until week 9 post-depletion treatment (Ding et al., 2023). In this study, we investigated largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides), a warm-water freshwater species. Administration of 300 μg of IgM antibody resulted in rapid IgM+ B cell depletion from serum and mucus within one day, indicating that the rapid depletion kinetics may be attributed to the combined effects of the elevated antibody dose and the species-specific immunological characteristics. Moreover, we provide a western blot analysis of serum and mucus after IgM depletion as shown in Figure 5–figure supplement 1G and H.

      Neutralizing Capacity Assays:

      Discuss the potential role of complement or other serum/mucus factors in the neutralization assays. Consider performing neutralization assays that isolate viruses, antibody, and target cells to assess the specific role of IgM.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s insightful suggestion regarding the potential influence of complement and other serum/mucus factors in our neutralization assays. We sincerely regret that the lack of clarity in our methodological description caused misunderstandings to the reviewer. In fact, prior to performing the virus neutralization assays, serum and mucus samples were heat-inactivated at 56 °C to eliminate potential complement interference. Now, we added the related description of heat-inactivation of serum and mucus samples in the revised manuscript (Lines 727-729). Moreover, our results showed that selective IgM depletion from high LMBV-specific IgM titer mucus and serum samples resulted in significantly increased viral loads and enhanced cytopathic effects (CPE), while no significant difference was observed compared to the control group (shown in Figure 6 of the manuscript).

      To further rule out complement or other factors, we purified IgM from serum and gut mucus of 42DPI-S fish for neutralization assays. Briefly, anti-bass IgM MoAb was coupled to CNBr-activated sepharose 4B beads and used for purification of IgM from both serum and gut mucus of 42DPI-S fish. After that, 100 µL of LMBV (1 × 10<sup>4</sup> TCID<sub>50</sub>) in MEM was incubated with PBS and purified IgM (100 µg/mL) at 28 °C for 1 hour and then the mixtures were applied to infect EPC cells. Medium or bass IgM was added to EPC cells as controls. We added the new text in Materials and methods of the revised manuscript in Lines 735-741. Our result showed that a significant reduction in both LMBV-MCP gene expression and protein levels was observed in EPC cells treated with purified IgM from serum (Figure 6–figure supplement 2A, C, and D) or gut mucus (Figure 6–figure supplement 2B, E, and F). Moreover, significantly lower CPE were observed in the IgM treated group, while no CPE was observed in medium and bass IgM group (Figure 6–figure supplement 2G). Collectively, these findings strongly suggest that the neutralization process is a potential mechanism of IgM, serving as a key molecule in adaptive immunity against viral infection. Here, we have incorporated these new findings in the Results section of the revised manuscript (Lines 382-388).

      IgT Depletion Model:

      To fully establish the role of IgM and IgT in antiviral defense, consider including an experimental group where IgT is depleted.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. The role of IgT in mucosal antiviral immunity in teleost fish has been reported in our previous studies (Yu et al, 2022). However, this study primarily investigates the antiviral function of IgM in systemic and mucosal immunity and further analyzes the mechanisms of viral neutralization. In future research, we plan to establish an IgT and IgM double-depletion/knockout model to further elucidate their specific roles in antiviral immune defense.

      (2) Writing and Presentation:

      Introduction:

      Replace the cited review article on IgT absence with original research articles (e.g., Bradshaw et al., 2020; Györkei et al., 2024) to strengthen the context.

      Thank you for your valuable suggestion. We have changed in the revised manuscript (Lines 45-50) as “Notably, while IgT has been identified in the majority of teleost species, genomic analyses reveal its absence in some species, such as medaka (Oryzias latipes), channel catfish (Ictalurus punctatus), Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua), and turquoise killifish (Nothobranchius furzeri) (Bengtén et al., 2002; Bradshaw et al., 2020; Magadán-Mompóet al., 2011; Györkei et al., 2024).”

      Highlight the evolutionary contrast between the presence of the J chain in older cartilaginous fishes and amphibians and its loss in teleosts. Relevant references include Hagiwara et al., 1985, and Hohman et al., 2003.

      Thank you for your valuable suggestion. We have added the relevant description in the revised manuscript (Lines 61-66) “Interestingly, the assembly mechanism of IgM exhibits significant evolutionary variation across vertebrate lineages. In cartilaginous fishes and tetrapods, IgM is secreted as a J chain-linked pentamer, which may enhance multivalent antigen recognition (Hagiwara et al., 1985; Hohman et al., 2003). By contrast, teleosts have undergone J chain gene loss, resulting in the stable of tetrameric IgM formation (Bromage et al., 2004).”

      Acknowledge prior studies demonstrating the viral neutralization role of teleost IgM (e.g., Castro et al., 2021; Chinchilla et al., 2013). Avoid overstating the novelty of findings.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. Here, we revised the related description: “More crucially, our study provides further insight into the role of sIgM in viral neutralization and firstly clarified the mechanism through which teleost sIgM blocks viral infection by directly targeting viral particles. From an evolutionary perspective, our findings indicate that sIgM in both primitive and modern vertebrates follows conserved principles in the development of specialized antiviral immunity.” in the revised manuscript (Lines 20-25) and “To the best of our knowledge, our study provides new insights into the role of sIgM in viral neutralization, suggesting a potential function of sIgM in combating viral infections.” in the revised manuscript (Lines 536-538).

      Clarify terms such as "primitive IgM" and avoid misleading evolutionary language (e.g., VLRs are not "candidates"; they mediate adaptive responses).

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. We changed the description of the primitive IgM in the sentence of the revised manuscript as “From an evolutionary perspective, our findings indicate that sIgM in both primitive and modern vertebrates follows conserved principles in the development of specialized antiviral immunity.” in the revised manuscript (Lines 23-25) and “our findings suggest that sIgM in both primitive and modern vertebrates utilize conserved mechanisms in response to viral infections” in the revised manuscript (Lines 574-575). Moreover, we deleted the description of VLRs for "candidates" and rewrote the relevant sentence in the revised manuscript (Lines 37-39) as “Agnathans, the most ancient vertebrate lineage, do not possess bona fide Ig but have variable lymphocyte receptors (VLRs) capable of mediating adaptive immune responses (Flajnik, 2018).”

      Results and Discussion:

      Address inconsistencies between data and claims, such as the statement that IgM plays a "crucial role" in protection against LMBV, which is not fully supported by mortality data.

      Thank you for your insightful comment. We have carefully reviewed our data and revised the language throughout the manuscript to ensure that our claims are fully consistent with the mortality data. We have changed the description of “IgM plays a crucial role in protection against LMBV” as “plays a role” (Line 119), “sIgM participates in” (Line 127), “contributes to immune protection” (Line 507) to more accurately reflect the mortality data

      Revise the model in Figure 8 to reflect the concerns raised regarding proliferation data, the role of IgM in protective resistance, and the potential contributions of complement in neutralization assays.

      Thank you for your insightful comment. We have added the raised concerns regarding “the viral proliferation data and the role of IgM in protective resistance” in Figure 8 (shown below). Meanwhile, we added relevant descriptions in the figure legends of the revised manuscript (Lines 587-592) as “Upon secondary LMBV infection, plasma cells produce substantial quantities of LMBV-specific IgM. Critically, these virus-specific sIgM from both mucosal and systemic sources has the ability to neutralize the virus by directly binding viral particles and blocking host cell entry, thereby effectively reducing the proliferation of viruses within tissues. Consequently, the IgM-mediated neutralization confers protection against LMBV-induced tissue damage and significantly reduced mortality during secondary infection.”

      However, considering the following two reasons: (1) heat-inactivation of serum and mucus samples at 56°C prior to neutralization assays effectively abolished complement activity, and (2) purified IgM from both serum and gut mucus demonstrated comparable neutralization capacity, confirming IgM-dependent mechanisms independent of complement. Therefore, we did not add the potential function of complement in neutralization to Figure 8.

      Provide a comparative analysis with other vertebrate models to strengthen the evolutionary implications of findings.

      Thank you for your insightful comment. We have added comparative analyses across additional vertebrate models in the discussion of the revised manuscript to enhance the evolutionary perspective of our findings. The details are as follows:

      “Virus-specific IgM production has been well-documented in reptiles, birds, and mammals upon viral infection (Dascalu et al., 2024; Harrington et al., 2021; Hetzel et al., 2021; Neul et al., 2017;). While current evidence confirms the capacity of cartilaginous fish and amphibians to mount specific IgM responses against bacterial pathogens and immune antigens (Dooley and Flajnik, 2005; Ramsey et al., 2010), the potential for viral induction of analogous IgM-mediated immunity in these species remains unresolved.” in the revised manuscript (Lines 498-504) and “Extensive studies in endotherms (birds and mammals) have demonstrated that specific IgM contributes to viral resistance by neutralizing viruses (Baumgarth et al., 2000; Diamond et al., 2013; Ku et al., 2021; Hagan et al., 2016; Singh et al., 2022). In contrast, the neutralizing activity of IgM in amphibians and reptiles remains largely unexplored. Although viral infections have been shown to induce neutralizing antibodies in Chinese soft-shelled turtles (Pelodiscus sinensis) (Nie and Lu, 1999), the specific Ig isotypes mediating this response have yet to be elucidated. In teleost fish, IgM has been shown to possess viral neutralizing activity similar to that observed in endotherms (Castro et al., 2013; Ye et al., 2013). Furthermore, our recent work demonstrated that secretory IgT (sIgT) in rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss) can neutralize viruses, significantly reducing susceptibility to infection (Yu et al., 2022). However, whether IgM in teleost fish possesses the antiviral neutralizing capacity necessary for fish to resist reinfection remains poorly understood.” in the revised manuscript (Lines 521-534)

      Include a description of the Western blot procedure shown in Figures 7D and 7F in the Methods section.

      Thank you for your suggestion. A detailed protocol for the western blot experiments presented in Figures 7D and 7F has been added to the Methods section (Western Blot Analysis) in the revised manuscript (Lines 684-687). The details are as follows: Gut mucus, serum, and cells samples were analyzed by western blot as described by Yu et al (2022). Briefly, the samples were separated using 4%–15% SDS-PAGE Ready Gel (Thermo Fisher Scientific, USA) and subsequently transferred to Sequi-Blot polyvinylidene fluoride (PVDF) membranes (Bio-Rad, USA). The membranes were blocked using a 8% skim milk for 2 hours and then incubated with monoclonal antibody (MoAb). For IgM concentration detection, the membranes were incubated with mouse anti-bass IgM MoAb (clone 66, IgG1, 1 μg/mL) and then incubation with HRP goat-anti-mouse IgG (Invitrogen, USA) for 1 hour. IgM concentrations were determined by comparing the signal strength values to a standard curve generated with known amounts of purified bass IgM. For neutralizing effect detection, the membranes were incubated with mouse anti-LMBV MCP MoAb (4A91E7, 1 μg/mL) followed by incubation with HRP goat-anti-mouse IgG (Invitrogen, USA) for 1 hour. The β-actin is used as a reference protein to standardize the differences between samples. Immunoblots were scanned using the GE Amersham Imager 600 (GE Healthcare, USA) with ECL solution (EpiZyme, China).

      Ensure all figures are labeled appropriately (e.g., replace "Morality" with "Mortality" in Figure 5A).

      Thanks for bringing this to our attention. We have corrected the label in Figure 5A (shown below) and reviewed all figures to ensure that they are appropriately labeled.

      (3) Minor Corrections:

      Line 117: Correct the typo "across both both."

      Thanks for bringing this to our attention. We have changed “across both both” to “across both” in the revised manuscript (Line 119).

      Line 203: Revise to "IgM plays a role (not crucial role)."

      Thank you for your valuable suggestion. We have modified the description of IgM's role from “crucial” to “plays a role” to better align with our experimental findings in the revised manuscript (Line 202).

      Line 684: Correct the typo "given an intravenous injection with 200 μg."

      Thanks for bringing this to our attention. We have corrected the phrase to “given an intravenous injection with 200 μg” in the revised manuscript (Line 700-701).

      Line 686: Fix the sentence fragment "previously. EdU+ cells."

      Thank you for your careful review. We have revised the sentence fragment for clarity in the revised manuscript (Lines 702-703).

      Abstract and other sections: Adjust language to remove claims of novelty unsupported by data, particularly regarding the role of IgM in viral neutralization.

      Thank you for your constructive feedback. We have thoroughly reviewed and revised the language throughout the abstract and other sections to remove any unsupported claims of novelty, particularly regarding the role of IgM in viral neutralization in the revised manuscript (Lines 20-25).

      (4)Technical Details:

      Verify data availability, including raw data and analysis scripts, in line with eLife's data policies. Include detailed descriptions of all methods, particularly those involving Western blot analysis and antibody validation.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We added the verify data availability, including raw data and analysis scripts as “The raw RNA sequencing data have been deposited in the NCBI Sequence Read Archive under BioProject accession number PRJNA1254665. The mass spectrometny proteomics data have been deposited to the iProX platform with the dataset identifier IPX0011847000.” in the revised manuscript (Lines 808-811).

      (5) Ethical and Policy Adherence:

      Confirm compliance with ethical standards for animal use and antibody development.Ensure proper citation of all referenced works and accurate reporting of prior findings.

      Thank you for your valuable comment. We confirm that our study fully complies with ethical standards for animal use and antibody development. Additionally, we have carefully reviewed the manuscript to ensure that all referenced works are properly cited and that prior findings are accurately reported.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      Overall, the conclusions of the paper are mostly supported by the data but may be overstated in some cases, and some details are also missing or not easily recognizable within the figures. The provision of additional information and analyses would be valuable to the reader and may even benefit the authors' interpretation of the data. 

      We thank the reviewer for the thoughtful and constructive feedback. We are pleased that the reviewer found the overall conclusions of our paper to be well supported by the data, and we appreciate the suggestions for improving figure clarity and interpretive accuracy. Below, we address each point with corresponding revisions.

      The conclusion that DREADD expression gradually decreases after 1.5-2 years is only based on a select few of the subjects assessed; in Figure 2, it appears that only 3 hM4Di cases and 2 hM3Dq cases are assessed after the 2-year timepoint. The observed decline appears consistent within the hM4Di cases, but not for the hM3Dq cases (see Figure 2C: the AAV2.1-hSyn-hM3Dq-IRES-AcGFP line is increasing after 2 years.) 

      We agree that our interpretation should be stated more cautiously, given the limited number of cases assessed beyond the two-year timepoint. In the revised manuscript, we have clarified in the Results that the observed decline is based on a subset of animals. We have also included a text stating that while a consistent decline was observed in hM4Di-expressing monkeys, the trajectory for hM3Dq expression was more variable with at least one case showing an increased signal beyond two years.

      Revised Results section:

      Lines 140, “hM4Di expression levels remained stable at peak levels for approximately 1.5 years, followed by a gradual decline observed in one case after 2.5 years, and after approximately 3 years in the other two cases (Figure 2B, a and e/d, respectively). Compared with hM4Di expression, hM3Dq expression exhibited greater post-peak fluctuations. Nevertheless, it remained at ~70% of peak levels after about 1 year. This post-peak fluctuation was not significantly associated with the cumulative number of DREADD agonist injections (repeated-measures two-way ANOVA, main effect of activation times, F<sub>(1,6)</sub> = 5.745, P = 0.054). Beyond 2 years post-injection, expression declined to ~50% in one case, whereas another case showed an apparent increase (Figure 2C, c and m, respectively).”

      Given that individual differences may affect expression levels, it would be helpful to see additional labels on the graphs (or in the legends) indicating which subject and which region are being represented for each line and/or data point in Figure 1C, 2B, 2C, 5A, and 5B. Alternatively, for Figures 5A and B, an accompanying table listing this information would be sufficient. 

      We thank the reviewer for these helpful suggestions. In response, we have revised the relevant figures (Fig. 1C, 2B, 2C, and 5) as noted in the “Recommendations for the authors”, including simplifying visual encodings and improving labeling. We have also updated Table 2 to explicitly indicate the animal ID and brain regions associated with each data point shown in the figures.

      While the authors comment on several factors that may influence peak expression levels, including serotype, promoter, titer, tag, and DREADD type, they do not comment on the volume of injection. The range in volume used per region in this study is between 2 and 54 microliters, with larger volumes typically (but not always) being used for cortical regions like the OFC and dlPFC, and smaller volumes for subcortical regions like the amygdala and putamen. This may weaken the claim that there is no significant relationship between peak expression level and brain region, as volume may be considered a confounding variable. Additionally, because of the possibility that larger volumes of viral vectors may be more likely to induce an immune response, which the authors suggest as a potential influence on transgene expression, not including volume as a factor of interest seems to be an oversight. 

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important issue. We agree that injection volume could act as a confounding variable, particularly since larger volumes were used in only handheld cortical injections. This overlap makes it difficult to disentangle the effect of volume from those of brain region or injection method. Moreover, data points associated with these larger volumes also deviated when volume was included in the model.

      To address this, we performed a separate analysis restricted to injections delivered via microinjector, where a comparable volume range was used across cases. In this subset, we included injection volume as additional factor in the model and found that volume did not significantly impact peak expression levels. Instead, the presence of co-expressed protein tags remained a significant predictor, while viral titer no longer showed a significant effect. These updated results have replaced the originals in the revised Results section and in the new Figure 5. We have also revised the Discussion to reflect these updated findings.

      The authors conclude that vectors encoding co-expressed protein tags (such as HA) led to reduced peak expression levels, relative to vectors with an IRES-GFP sequence or with no such element at all. While interesting, this finding does not necessarily seem relevant for the efficacy of long-term expression and function, given that the authors show in Figures 1 and 2 that peak expression (as indicated by a change in binding potential relative to non-displaced radioligand, or ΔBPND) appears to taper off in all or most of the constructs assessed. The authors should take care to point out that the decline in peak expression should not be confused with the decline in longitudinal expression, as this is not clear in the discussion; i.e. the subheading, "Factors influencing DREADD expression," might be better written as, "Factors influencing peak DREADD expression," and subsequent wording in this section should specify that these particular data concern peak expression only. 

      We appreciate this important clarification. In response, we have revised the title to "Protein tags reduce peak DREADD expression levels" in the Results section and “Factors influencing peak DREADD expression levels” in the Discussion section. Additionally, we specified that our analysis focused on peak ΔBP<sub>ND</sub> values around 60 days post-injection. We have also explicitly distinguished these findings from the later-stage changes in expression seen in the longitudinal PET data in both the Results and Discussion sections.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Will any of these datasets be made available to other researchers upon request?

      All data used to generate the figures have been made publicly available via our GitHub repository (https://github.com/minamimoto-lab/2024-Nagai-LongitudinalPET.git). This has been stated in the "Data availability" section in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Suggested modifications to figures:

      a) In Figures 2B and C, the inclusion of "serotype" as a separate legend with individual shapes seems superfluous, as the serotype is also listed as part of the colour-coded vector

      We agree that the serotype legend was redundant since this information is already included in the color-coded vector labels. In response, we have removed the serotype shape indicators and now represent the data using only vector-construct-based color coding for clarity in Figure 2B and C.

      b) In Figures 3A and B, it would be nice to see tics (representing agonist administration) for all subjects, not just the two that are exemplified in panels C-D and F-H. Perhaps grey tics for the non-exemplified subjects could be used.

      In response, we have included black and white ticks to indicate all agonist administration across all subjects in Figure 3A and B, with the type of agonist clearly specified. 

      c) In Figure 4C, a Nissl- stained section is said to demonstrate the absence of neuronal loss at the vector injection sites. However, if the neuronal loss is subtle or widespread, this might not be easily visualized by Nissl. I would suggest including an additional image from the same section, in a non-injected cortical area, to show there is no significant difference between the injected and non-injected region.

      To better demonstrate the absence of neuronal loss at the injection site, we have included an image from the contralateral, non-injected region of the same section for comparison (Fig. 4C).

      d) In Figure 5A: is it possible that the hM3Dq construct with a titer of 5×10^13 gc/ml is an outlier, relative to the other hM3Dq constructs used?

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important observation. To evaluate whether the high-titer constructs represented a statistical outlier that might artifactually influence the observed trends, we performed a permutation-based outlier analysis. This assessment identified this point in question, as well as one additional case (titer 4.6 x 10e13 gc/ml, #255, L_Put), as significant outlier relative to the distribution of the dataset.

      Accordingly, we excluded these two data points from the analysis. Importantly, this exclusion did not meaningfully alter the overall trend or the statistical conclusions—specifically, the significant effect of co-expressed protein tags on peak expression levels remain robust. We have updated the Methods section to describe this outlier handling and added a corresponding note in the figure legend.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Weaknesses 

      This study is a meta-analysis of several experiments performed in one lab. The good side is that it combined a large amount of data that might not have been published individually; the downside is that all things were not planned and equated, creating a lot of unexplained variances in the data. This was yet judiciously used by the authors, but one might think that planned and organized multicentric experiments would provide more information and help test more parameters, including some related to inter-individual variability, and particular genetic constructs. 

      We thank the reviewer for bringing this important point to our attention. We fully acknowledge that the retrospective nature of our dataset—compiled from multiple studies conducted within a single laboratory—introduces variability related to differences in injection parameters and scanning timelines. While this reflects the practical realities and constraints of long-term NHP research, we agree that more standardized and prospectively designed studies would better control such source of variances. To address this, we have added the following statement to the "Technical consideration" section in Discussion:

      Lines 297, "This study included a retrospective analysis of datasets pooled from multiple studies conducted within a single laboratory, which inherently introduced variability across injection parameters and scan intervals. While such an approach reflects real-world practices in long-term NHP research, future studies, including multicenter efforts using harmonized protocols, will be valuable for systematically assessing inter-individual differences and optimizing key experimental parameters."

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I just have a few minor points that might help improve the paper:

      (1) Figure 1C y-axis label: should add deltaBPnd in parentheses for clarity.

      We have added “ΔBP<sub>ND</sub>” to the y-axis label for clarity.

      The choice of a sigmoid curve is the simplest clear fit, but it doesn't really consider the presence of the peak described in the paper. Would there be a way to fit the dynamic including fitting the peak?

      We agree that using a simple sigmoid curve for modeling expression dynamics is a limitation. In response to this and a similar comment from Reviewer #3, we tested a double logistic function (as suggested) to see if it better represented the rise and decline pattern. However, as described below, the original simple sigmoid curve was a better fit for the data. We have included a discussion regarding this limitation of this analysis. See Reviewer #3 recommendations (2) for details.

      The colour scheme in Figure 1C should be changed to make things clearer, and maybe use another dimension (like dotted lines) to separate hM4Di from hM3Dq.

      We have improved the visual clarity of Figure 1C by modifying the color scheme to represent vector construct and using distinct line types (dashed for hM4Di and solid for hM3Dq data) to separate DREADD type.

      (2) Figure 2

      I don't understand how the referencing to 100 was made: was it by selecting the overall peak value or the peak value observed between 40 and 80 days? If the former then I can't see how some values are higher than the peak. If the second then it means some peak values occurred after 80 days and data are not completely re-aligned.

      We thank the reviewer for the opportunity to clarify this point. The normalization was based on the peak value observed between 40–80 days post-injection, as this window typically captured the peak expression phase in our dataset (see Figure 1). However, in some long-term cases where PET scans were limited during this period—e.g., with one scan performing at day 40—it is possible that the actual peak occurred later. Therefore, instances where ΔBP<sub>ND</sub> values slightly exceeded the reference peak at later time points likely reflect this sampling limitation. We have clarified this methodological detail in the revised Results section to improve transparency.

      The methods section mentions the use of CNO but this is not in the main paper which seems to state that only DCZ was used: the authors should clarify this

      Although DCZ was the primary agonist used, CNO and C21 were also used in a few animals (e.g., monkeys #153, #221, and #207) for behavioral assessments. We have clarified this in the Results section and revised Figure 3 to indicate the specific agonist used for each subject. Additionally, we have updated the Methods section to clearly specify the use and dosage of DCZ, CNO, and C21, to avoid any confusion regarding the experimental design.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review): 

      Minor weaknesses are related to a few instances of suboptimal phrasing, and some room for improvement in time course visualization and quantification. These would be easily addressed in a revision. <br /> These findings will undoubtedly have a very significant impact on the rapidly growing but still highly challenging field of primate chemogenetic manipulations. As such, the work represents an invaluable resource for the community.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive assessment of our manuscript and for the constructive suggestions. We address each comment in the following point-by-point responses and have revised the manuscript accordingly.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Please clarify the reasoning was, behind restricting the analysis in Figure 1 only to 7 monkeys with subcortical AAV injection?

      We focused the analysis shown in Figure 1 on 7 monkeys with subcortical AAV injections who received comparative injection volumes. These data were primary part of vector test studies, allowing for repeated PET scans within 150 days post-injection. In contrast, monkeys with cortical injections—including larger volumes—were allocated to behavioral studies and therefore were not scanned as frequently during the early phase. We will clarify this rationale in the Results section.

      (2) Figure 1: Not sure if a simple sigmoid is the best model for these, mostly peaking and then descending somewhat, curves. I suggest testing a more complex model, for instance, double logistic function of a type f(t) = a + b/(1+exp(-c*(t-d))) - e/(1+exp(-g*(t-h))), with the first logistic term modeling the rise to peak, and the second term for partial decline and stabilization

      We appreciate the reviewer’s thoughtful suggestion to use a double logistic function to better model both the rising and declining phases of the expression curve. In response to this and similar comments from Reviewer #1, we tested the proposed model and found that, while it could capture the peak and subsequent decline, the resulting fit appeared less biologically plausible (See below). Moreover, model comparison using BIC favored the original simple sigmoid model (BIC = 61.1 vs. 62.9 for the simple and double logistic model, respectively). This information has been included in the revised figure legend for clarity.

      Given these results, we retained the original simple sigmoid function in the revised manuscript, as it provides a sufficient and interpretable approximation of the early expression trajectory—particularly the peak expression-time estimation, which was the main purpose of this analysis. We have updated the Methods section to clarify our modeling and rationale as follows:

      Lines 530, "To model the time course of DREADD expression, we used a single sigmoid function, referencing past in vivo fluorescent measurements (Diester et al., 2011). Curve fitting was performed using least squares minimization. For comparison, a double logistic function was also tested and evaluated using the Bayesian Information Criterion (BIC) to assess model fit."

      We also acknowledge that a more detailed understanding of post-peak expression changes will require additional PET measurements, particularly between 60- and 120-days post-injection, across a larger number of animals. We have included this point in the revised Discussion to highlight the need for future work focused on finer-grained modeling of expression decline:

      Lines 317, “Although we modeled the time course of DREADD expression using a single sigmoid function, PET data from several monkeys showed a modest decline following the peak. While the sigmoid model captured the early-phase dynamics and offered a reliable estimate of peak timing, additional PET scans—particularly between 60- and 120-days post-injection—will be essential to fully characterize the biological basis of the post-peak expression trajectories.”

      Author response image 1.<br />

      (3) Figure 2: It seems that the individual curves are for different monkeys, I counted 7 in B and 8 in C, why "across 11 monkeys"? Were there several monkeys both with hM4Diand hM3Dq? Does not look like that from Table 1. Generally, I would suggest associating specific animals from Tables 1 and 2 to the panels in Figures 1 and 2.

      Some animals received multiple vector types, leading to more curves than individual subjects. We have revised the figure legends and updated Table 2 to explicitly relate each curve with the specific animal and brain region.

      (4) I also propose plotting the average of (interpolated) curves across animals, to convey the main message of the figure more effectively.

      We agree that plotting the mean of the interpolated expression curves would help convey the group trend. We added averaged curves to Figure 2BC.

      (5) Similarly, in line 155 "We assessed data from 17 monkeys to evaluate ... Monkeys expressing hM4Di were assessed through behavioral testing (N = 11) and alterations in neuronal activity using electrophysiology (N = 2)..." - please explain how 17 is derived from 11, 2, 5 and 1. It is possible to glean from Table 1 that it is the calculation is 11 (including 2 with ephys) + 5 + 1 = 17, but it might appear as a mistake if one does not go deep into Table 1.

      We have clarified in both the text and Table 1 that some monkeys (e.g., #201 and #207) underwent both behavioral and electrophysiological assessments, resulting in the overlapping counts. Specifically, the dataset includes 11 monkeys for hM4Di-related behavior testing (two of which underwent electrophysiology testing), 5 monkeys assessed for hM3Dq with FDG-PET, and 1 monkey assessed for hM3Dq with electrophysiology, totaling 19 assessments across 17 monkeys. We have revised the Results section to make this distinction more explicit to avoid confusion, as follows:

      Lines 164, "Monkeys expressing hM4Di (N = 11) were assessed through behavioral testing, two of which also underwent electrophysiological assessment. Monkeys expressing hM3Dq (N = 6) were assessed for changes in glucose metabolism via [<sup>18</sup>F]FDG-PET (N = 5) or alterations in neuronal activity using electrophysiology (N = 1).”

      (6) Line 473: "These stock solutions were then diluted in saline to a final volume of 0.1 ml (2.5% DMSO in saline), achieving a dose of 0.1 ml/kg and 3 mg/kg for DCZ and CNO, respectively." Please clarify: the injection volume was always 0.1 ml? then it is not clear how the dose can be 0.1 ml/kg (for a several kg monkey), and why DCZ and CNO doses are described in ml/kg vs mg/kg?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this ambiguity. We apologize for the oversight and also acknowledge that we omitted mention of C21, which was used in a small number of cases. To address this, we have revised the “Administration of DREADD agonist” section of the Methods to clearly describe the preparation, the volume, and dosage for each agonist (DCZ, CNO, and C21) as follows:

      Lines 493, “Deschloroclozapine (DCZ; HY-42110, MedChemExpress) was the primary agonist used. DCZ was first dissolved in dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO; FUJIFILM Wako Pure Chemical Corp.) and then diluted in saline to a final volume of 1 mL, with the final DMSO concentration adjusted to 2.5% or less. DCZ was administered intramuscularly at a dose of 0.1 mg/kg for hM4Di activation, and at 1–3 µg/kg for hM3Dq activation. For behavioral testing, DCZ was injected approximately 15 min before the start of the experiment unless otherwise noted. Fresh DCZ solutions were prepared daily.

      In a limited number of cases, clozapine-N-oxide (CNO; Toronto Research Chemicals) or Compound 21 (C21; Tocris) was used as an alternative DREADD agonist for some hM4Di experiments. Both compounds were dissolved in DMSO and then diluted in saline to a final volume of 2–3 mL, also maintaining DMSO concentrations below 2.5%. CNO and C21 were administered intravenously at doses of 3 mg/kg and 0.3 mg/kg, respectively.”

      (7) Figure 5A: What do regression lines represent? Do they show a simple linear regression (then please report statistics such as R-squared and p-values), or is it related to the linear model described in Table 3 (but then I am not sure how separate DREADDs can be plotted if they are one of the factors)?

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful question. In the original version of Figure 5A, the regression lines represented simple linear fits used to illustrate the relationship between viral titer and peak expression levels, based on our initial analysis in which titer appeared to have a significant effect without any notable interaction with other factors (such as DREADD type).

      However, after conducting a more detailed analysis that incorporated injection volume as an additional factor and excluded cortical injections and statistical outliers (as suggested by Reviewer #1), viral titer was no longer found to significantly predict peak expression levels. Consequently, we revised the figure to focus on the effect of reporter tag, which remained the most consistent and robust predictor in our model.

      In the updated Figure 5, we have removed the relationship between viral titer and expression level with regression lines.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Because many conclusions are drawn from overexpression studies and from a single cell line (HEK293), it is unclear how general these effects are. In particular, one of the main claims put forth in this manuscript is that of specificity, namely, that FZD5/8, and none of the other FZDs, are uniquely involved in this internalization and degradation. While there are examples of similar specificities, many of these examples can be attributed to a particular cellular context. Without demonstrating that this FZD5/8 specificity is observed in multiple cell lines and contexts, this point remains unconvincing and questionable. One way to address this point of criticism is to omit the word "specifically" in the title and soften the language concerning this idea throughout the manuscript.

      We appreciate your valuable comments and suggestions. We have removed the word “specifically” from the title and softened the language concerning this idea throughout the manuscript. Moreover, we performed new experiments to show that Wnt3a/5a induces FZD5/8 endocytosis and degradation and that IWP-2 treatment increases the cell surface levels of FZD5/8 in cell lines other than 293A (Figure 1-Figure supplement 1 and Figure 2-Figure supplement 1). These results indicate that Wnt-induced FZD5/8 endocytosis and degradation are not cell specific.

      The starting point for these studies is a survey of all 10 FZDs, V5-tagged and overexpressed in HEK293 cells. Here, the authors observed a decline in cell surface levels of only FZD5 and 8 in response to Wnt3a and Wnt5a. As illustrated in the immunoblot (Fig 1B), several FZDs were poorly expressed, including FZD1, 3, 6 and 9, which calls into question that only FZD5 and 8 were affected. Furthermore, total levels of FZD8 don't diminish appreciably, as claimed by the authors, and only FZD5 shows a subtle decline upon WNT treatment. All of these experiments are performed with overexpressed V5-tagged FZD proteins or with endogenously V5-tagged (KI) proteins, and it is possible that overexpression or tagging lead to potentially artifactual observations. Examining the effects of WNTs on FZD protein localization and levels need to be done with endogenously expressed, non-tagged FZDs. In this context, it is somewhat puzzling that the authors don't show such an experiment using the pan- and FZD5/8-specific antibodies, which they use in multiple experiments throughout the manuscript. With these available tools it should be possible to examine FZD levels at the cell surface in response to Wnt3a and Wnt5a, ideally in multiple cell lines.

      We appreciate your valuable comments and suggestions. Figure 1B shows the results of the follow-up study shown in Figure 1A. As shown in Figure 1A, we used flow cytometry analysis to detect the cell surface levels of stably expressed FZDs and found that Wnt3a/5a specifically reduced the levels of FZD5/8 on the cell surface, suggesting that Wnt3a/5a induces FZD5/8 endocytosis. As shown in Figure 1B and C, we performed immunoblotting to examine whether Wnt3a/5a-induced FZD5/8 internalization resulted in FZD5/8 degradation. Notably, most FZDs exhibit two bands on immunoblots, as also suggested by other published studies, and the upper bands represent the mature form that is fully glycosylated and presented to the cell surface (see also new Figure 2L), whereas the lower bands represent the immature form. Our results clearly indicated that Wnt3a/5a treatment reduced the levels of the mature forms of both FZD5 and FZD8, although the immunoblotting signals of the mature form of FZD8 (upper bands) were relatively weak. The immunoblotting signals of the other FZDs varied, and some of them (including FZD1, -3, -6 and -9) were relatively weak; however, according to the results in Figure 1A, all of the FZDs were expressed and present on the cell surface.

      Commercially available FZD5/8 antibodies, including those used in published studies, cannot detect endogenous FZD5/8 or can only recognize immature FZD5 in our hands, which is why we have to use the CRISPR-CAS9-based KI technique to introduce a V5 tag to FZD5 and FZD7. Notably, in the overexpression experiments, the V5 tag is on the amino terminus, and in the KI experiments, the V5 tag is on the carboxyl terminus of FZDs, which may minimize the potential artificial effects of the V5 tag on the immunoblotting assays.

      The monoclonal antibodies used in this study, such as anti-pan-FZD, anti-FZD5/8, and anti-FZD4 antibodies, are neutralizing antibodies that can compete with Wnt ligands to bind to the FZD CRD. These antibodies have been successfully used to detect the surface levels of FZDs via flow cytometry assays. However, as the binding affinity of the Wnt-FZD CRD is comparable to the binding affinity of the antibody-FZD, we were cautious in using these antibodies to detect the cell surface levels of FZDs when the cells were treated with Wnt3a/5a CM, which contains relatively high concentrations of Wnt3a/5a. As shown in Author response image 1, Wnt3a or Wnt5a treatment dramatically reduced the endogenous cell surface level of FZD5/8, as detected by flow cytometry using the anti-FZD5/8 antibody. However, in another experiment, HEK293A cells were first incubated with cold Wnt3a or Wnt5a CM at 4°C to minimize endocytosis and then analyzed via flow cytometry using the anti-FZD5/8 antibody. The results showed that Wnt3a/5a incubation reduced the floe cytometry signals, suggesting that Wnt3a/5a binding to FZD5/8 might interfere with antibody-FZD5/8 binding, although we cannot exclude the possibility that Wnt3a/5a may induce FZD5/8 endocytosis at 4°C (Author response image 1).

      Author response image 1.

      (A) HEK293A cells were treated with control, Wnt3a or Wnt5a CM for 2 hours at 37°C in a humidified incubator and were analyzed via flow cytometry using the anti-FZD5/8 antibody.

      (B) HEK293A cells were incubated with control, Wnt3a or Wnt5a CM for 1 h at 4°C and analyzed by flow cytometry using the anti-FZD5/8 antibody.

       

      Several experiments rely on gene-edited clonal cell lines, including knockouts of FZD5/8, RNF43/ZNRF3, and DVL. Gene knockouts were confirmed by genomic DNA sequencing and, for DVL and FZD5/8, by loss of protein expression. While these KO lines are powerful tools to study gene function, there is a concern for clonal variability. Each cell line may have acquired additional changes as a result of gene editing. In addition, there may be compensatory changes in gene expression as a consequence of the loss of certain genes. For example, expression of other FZDs may increase in FZD5/8 DKO cells. To address this critique, the authors should show that re-expression of the knocked-out genes rescues the observed effect. This is done in some instances (Fig 5E, G, H) but not in other instances, such as with the DVL TKO (Fig. 3). Since the authors assert that DVL is important for FZD internalization in the absence of WNT, but not for FZD internalization in the presence of WNT, this particular rescue experiment is important. This is a potentially important finding and it should be confirmed by re-expression of DVL in the TKO line. As an alternative, conditional knockdown using Tet-inducible shRNA expression could address concerns for clonal variability.

      We appreciate your valuable comments and suggestions. We re-expressed DVL2 in DVLTKO cells stably expressing V5-linker-FZD5 or V5-linker-FZD7. As shown in Figure 3G-K, re-expression of DVL2 rescued the decreased Wnt-independent endocytosis of FZD5 and FZD7 caused by DVL1/2/3 knockout.

      Given the significant differences in signaling activity by Wnt3a and Wnt5a, it is somewhat surprising that all experiments shown in this manuscript do not identify distinguishing features between Wnt3a and Wnt5a. In addition, it is unclear why the authors switch between Wnt3a and Wnt5a. For example, Figures 1C, 3G-J, 4C-D only use Wnt5a. In contrast, Figures 6E and H use Wnt3a, most likely because b-catenin stabilization is examined, an effect generally not observed with Wnt5a. The choice of which Wnt is examined/used appears to be somewhat arbitrary and the authors never provide any explanations for these choices. In the end, this type of inconsistency becomes puzzling when the authors present, quite convincingly, in Figure 7, that both Wnt3a and 5a promote an interaction between FZD5/8 and RNF43 through proximity biotin labeling.

      Although Wnt3a and Wnt5a are significantly different in triggering intracellular signaling pathways, both bind FZD5/8 and induce FZD5/8 endocytosis and degradation similarly. When FZD5 is stably overexpressed, Wnt5a has slightly stronger effects on inducing FZD5 endocytosis and degradation, possibly because the Wnt5a concentration may be higher than the Wnt3a concentration in our CM, which is why we used Wnt5a CM in some experiments when V5-FZD5 was overexpressed. In the revised manuscript, we used both Wnt3a and Wnt5a CM in the experiments as you suggested, as shown in Figure 1C, 3G-K and Figure 4-Figure supplement 1.

      Minor Points:

      Figure 3G and I: it is curious that individual cells are shown in the "0 h" samples, while the "Con 1 h" and "Wnt5a 1 h" show multiple cells with several making direct contact with each other. This is notable because the V5 staining at sites of cell-cell contact are quite distinct and variable between control and Wnt5a-treated and WT versus DVL TKO cells. Also, sub-cellular localization of FZD5 (V5 tag) puncta is quite distinct between Con and Wnt5a: puncta in Wnt5a-treated cells appear to be more plasma membrane proximal than in Con cells. These points may be easy to address by showing images of cells that are more similar with respect to cell number and density for each condition.

      Thank you for your suggestions. We repeated these experiments and added Wnt3a treatment and adjusted the cell density. Images including an individual cell were selected for presentation.

      Figure 5E: the following statement is confusing/misleading: "Furthermore, reintroducing ZNRF3 or RNF43 into ZRDKO cells efficiently restored the increase in cytosolic β-catenin levels, whereas the expression of RNF130 or RNF150, two structurally similar transmembrane E3 ubiquitin ligases, did not (Fig. 5E)." First, reintroduction of ZNRF3 or RNF43 restores cytosolic b-catenin levels; it does not restore the increase in b-catenin. Second, the claim that RNF130 fails to have this effect is not substantiated since it is barely expressed.

      Thank you for your suggestions and comments. We reorganized the language to make the statement clearer. Notably, the expression level of RNF130 was relatively low compared with that of other E3 ligases, but RNF130 was expressed (Figure 5E darker exposure) and could reduce the cell surface levels of FZDs, as shown in Figure 5G.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Given their results the authors conclude that upregulation of Frizzled on the plasma membrane is not sufficient to explain the stabilization of beta-catenin seen in the ZNRF3/RNF43 mutant cells. This interpretation is sound, and they suggest in the discussion that ZNRF3/RNF43-mediated ubiquitination could serve as a sorting signal to sort endocytosed FZD to lysosomes for degradation and that absence or inhibition of this process would promote FZD recycling. This should be relatively easy to test using surface biotinylation experiments and would considerably strengthen the manuscript.

      Thank you for your valuable suggestions and comments. We performed cell surface biotinylation experiments in HEK293A FZD5KI cells, as shown in Figure 2L. The results indicated that Wnt3a or Wnt5a treatment induced the degradation of FZD5 on the cell surface, which was antagonized by cotreatment with RSPO1. We did not perform a more detailed endocytosis/recycling biotinylation experiment that requires complex reversible biotinylation and multiple washing steps because HEK293A cells are fragile in culture and not easy to handle. Furthermore, the results shown in Figure 4 indicate that knockout of ZNRF3/RNF43 or RSPO1 significantly blocked the degradation of internalized FZD5 and reduced the colocalization of internalized FZD5 with lysosomal markers, suggesting that Wnt3a/5a induced lysosomal degradation of FZD5 in the presence of ZNRF3/RNF43 and that the internalized FZD5 was most likely recycled back to the cell surface when ZNRF3/RNF43 was knocked out or inhibited by RSPO1.

      (2) The authors show that the FZD5 CRD domain is required for endocytosis since a mutant FZD5 protein in which the CRD is removed does not undergo endocytosis. This is perhaps not surprising since this is the site of Wnt binding, but the authors show that a chimeric FZD5CRD-FZD4 receptor can confer Wnt-dependent endocytosis to an otherwise endocytosis incompetent FZD4 protein. Since the linker region between the CRD and the first TM differs between FZD5 and FZD4, it would be interesting to understand whether the CRD specifically or the overall arrangement (such as the spacing) is the most important determinant.

      Our results in Figure 1D-H clearly show that the CRD of FZD5 specifically is both necessary and sufficient for Wnt3a/5a-induced FZD5 endocytosis, as replacing the CRD alone in FZD5 with the CRD from either FZD4 or FZD7 completely abolished Wnt-induced endocytosis, whereas replacing the CRD alone in FZD4 or FZD7 with the FZD5 CRD alone could confer Wnt-induced endocytosis.

      (3) I find it surprising that only FZD5 and FZD8 appear to undergo endocytosis or be stabilized at the cell surface upon ZNRF3/RNF43 knockout. Is this consistent with previous literature? Is that a cell-specific feature? These findings should be tested in a different cell line, with possibly different relative levels of ZNRF3 and RNF43 expression.

      Thank you for your comments and suggestions. Our finding that ZNRF3/RNF43 specifically regulates FZD5/8 degradation is consistent with recent published studies in which FZD5 is required for the survival of RNF43-mutant PDAC or colorectal cancer cells (Nature Medicine, 2017, PMID: 27869803) and FZD5 is required for the maintenance of intestinal stem cells (Developmental Cell, 2024, PMID: 39579768 and 39579769), and in both cases, FZDs other than FZD5/8 are also expressed but not sufficient to compensate for the function of FZD5. The mechanism by which Wnt3a/5a specifically induces FZD5/8 endocytosis and degradation is currently unknown and needs to be explored in the future. We speculate that Wnt binding to FZD5/8 may recruit another protein on the cell surface to specifically facilitate FZD5/8 endocytosis. On the other hand, we cannot exclude the possibility that Wnts other than Wnt3a/5a may induce the endocytosis and degradation of FZDs other than FZD5/8 since there are 19 Wnts and 10 FZDs in humans. Notably, several previous studies have suggested that ZNRF3/RNF43 may regulate the endocytosis and degradation of all FZDs without selectivity (such as Nature, 2012, PMID: 22575959; Nature, 2012, PMID: 22895187; Mol Cell, 2015, PMID: 25891077). However, their conclusions were drawn mostly on the basis of overexpression studies. According to the results shown in Figure 5E-H, overexpressing a membrane-tethered E3 ligase (such as ZNRF3, RNF43, RNF130, or RNF150) may nonspecifically degrade FZD proteins on the cell surface.

      Furthermore, in the revised manuscript, we showed that Wnt3a/5a induced FZD5/8 endocytosis and degradation in multiple cell lines, including Huh7, U2OS, MCF7, and 769P cells (Figure 1-Figure supplement 1 and Figure 2-Figure supplement 1), suggesting that these phenomena are not specific to 293A cells.

      (4) If FZD7 is not a substrate of ZNRF3/RNF43 and therefore is not ubiquitinated and degraded, how do the authors reconcile that its overexpression does not lead to elevated cytosolic beta-catenin levels in Figure 5B?

      We are currently not sure of the mechanism underlying this result. Considering that most FZDs are expressed in 293A cells, we do not know how much of the mature form of overexpressed FZD7 was presented to the plasma membrane.

      (5) For Figure 5B, it would be interesting if the authors could evaluate whether overexpression of FZD5 in the ZNRF3/RNF43 double knockout lines would synergize and lead to further increase in cytosolic beta-catenin levels. As control if the substrate selectivity is clear FZD7 overexpression in that line should not do anything.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We performed these experiments as suggested, and the results indicated that overexpressing FZD5 further increased cytosolic beta-catenin levels in ZRDKO cells, whereas FZD7 had no effect (Figure 6D).

      (6) In Figure 6G, the authors need to show cytosolic levels of beta-catenin in the absence of Wnt in all cases.

      We did not add Wnt CM in this experiment. RSPO1 activity, which relies on endogenous Wnt, has been well documented in previous studies.

      (7) Since the authors show that DVL is not involved in the Wnt and ZRNF3-dependent endocytosis they should repeat the proximity biotinylation experiment in figure 7 in the DVL triple KO cells. This is an important experiment since previous studies showed that DVL was required for the ZRNF3/RNF43-mediated ubiqtuonation of FZD.

      Thank you for your valuable suggestions. As you suggested, we performed a proximity biotinylation experiment in DVL TKO cells, and the results showed that Wnt3a/5a could still induce the interaction of FZD5 and RNF43 in DVLTKO cells (Figure 7-figure supplement 1), suggesting that the Wnt-induced FZD5‒RNF43 interaction is DVL independent.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this manuscript, Roy et al. used the previously published deep transfer learning tool, DEGAS, to map disease associations onto single-cell RNA-seq data from bulk expression data. The authors performed independent runs of DEGAS using T2D or obesity status and identified distinct β-cell subpopulations. β-cells with high obese-DEGAS scores contained two subpopulations derived largely from either non-diabetic or T2D donors. Finally, immunostaining using human pancreas sections from healthy and T2D donors validated the heterogeneous expression and depletion of DLK1 in T2D islets.

      Strengths:

      (1) This meta-analysis of previously published scRNA-seq data using a deep transfer learning tool.

      (2) Identification of novel beta cell subclusters.

      (3) Identified a relatively innovative role of DLK1 in T2D disease progression.

      Thank you for your comments on the strengths of our work.

      Weaknesses :

      “There is little overlap of the DE list of bulk RNA-seq analysis in Figure 1D and 1E overlap with the DE list of pseudo-bulk RNA-seq analysis of all cells in Figure S2C. “

      Thank you for pointing this out. To clarify, we did not perform pseudo-bulk analysis on the scRNAseq data. Instead, we used the Seurat FindClusterMarkers function to identify differentially enriched genes between T2D and ND single cells. Indeed, there are many significant genes in new Fig S2D (original S2C). There is some overlap between those data and the DEGS from bulk RNAseq data in Fig 1D, including IAPP, ENTPD3, and FFAR4. However, the limited overlap supports the notion that improved approaches are necessary to identify candidate DEGs from single cell data, as simply performing a comparison of T2D to ND of all β-cells may miss important genes or include many false positives. We have now added clarification to the text to highlight this point.

      The biological meaning of "beta cells had the lowest scores compared to other cell types" is not clear.

      The relatively lower T2D-DEGAS scores for beta cells overall compared to all other cell types (alpha cells, acinar cells, etc) likely reflects the fact that in T2D, beta cell-specific genes can be downregulated. This affects the DEGAS model which is reflected in the scores of all cells in the scRNAseq data. By subsetting the beta cells and replotting them on their own, we can analyze the relative differences in DEGAS scores between different subsets of beta cells. We have now amended the text to clarify, as follows:

      “We next mapped the T2D-association scores onto the single cells (Fig 3A). β-cells had a wide distribution of scores, possibly reflecting β-cell heterogeneity or altered β-cell gene expression after onset of T2D (Fig 3B).”

      The figures and supplemental figures were not cited following the sequence, which makes the manuscript very difficult to read. Some supplemental figures, such as Figures S1C-S1D, S2B-S2E, S3A-S3B, were not cited or mentioned in the text.

      We apologize for this oversight and have now amended the text to call out all figures/panels in order of first introduction.

      In Figure 7, the current resolution is too low to determine the localization of DLK1.

      We have confirmed that in our Adobe Illustrator file, each microscopy panel has a DPI of >600. We have also provided the highest quality TIFF file versions of our figure set. We hope the reviewer will have access to download the high-quality TIFF file for Fig 7 if possible, or the editorial staff can provide it.

      As a result of addressing the critiques, we identified CDKN1C as another promising candidate enriched in the β<sup>T2D-DEGAS</sup> and β<sup>obese-DEGAS</sup> subpopulations of β-cells. We found that CDKN1C is heterogeneously expressed at the protein level in β-cells and that it is increased in T2D in agreement with the DEGAS predictions. We have amended the manuscript to highlight CDKN1C more prominently while still discussing DLK1. DLK1 is very interesting, but exhibits greater donor to donor variability in its alterations in T2D.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Gitanjali Roy et al. applies deep transfer learning (DEGAS) to assign patient-level disease attributes (metadata) to single cells of T2D and non-diabetic patients, including obese patients. This led to the identification of a singular cluster of T2D-associated β-cells; and two subpopulations of obese- β-cells derived from either non-diabetic or T2D donors. The objective was to identify novel and established genes implicated in T2D and obesity. Their final goal is to validate their findings at the protein level using immunohistochemistry of pancreas tissue from non-diabetic and T2D organ donors.

      Strengths:

      This paper is well-written, and the findings are relevant for β-cell heterogeneity in T2D and obesity.

      Thank you for your comments on the positive aspects of our work.

      Weaknesses:

      The validation they provide is not sufficiently strong: no DLK1 immunohistochemistry is shown of obese patient-derived sections.

      We have acquired additional FFPE pancreas samples from the Integrated Islet Distribution Program (IIDP) from lean, overweight, and obese humans with and without T2D. We have now stained for CDKN1C and DLK1 in these samples and have integrated the data into Fig 7 and Fig S5.

      Because the data with CDKN1C was more striking and consistent with the DEGAS predictions, we have chosen to highlight CDKN1C in the main figure and text. The DLK1 data is still quite interesting, although there is substantial variability between T2D donors when it comes to altered staining intensity. DLK1 presents an interesting challenge, given multiple isoforms and cleavage products, and will require further investigation as the focus of a different manuscript.

      Additional presumptive relevant candidates from this transcriptomic analysis should be screened for, at the protein level.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We also identified CDKN1C as promising candidate enriched in the β<sup>T2D-DEGAS</sup> and β<sup>obese-DEGAS</sup> subpopulations of β-cells. We found that CDKN1C is heterogeneously expressed at the protein level in β-cells and that it is increased in T2D in agreement with the DEGAS predictions. We have amended the manuscript to highlight CDKN1C more prominently while still discussing DLK1. DLK1 is very interesting but exhibits greater donor to donor variability in its alterations in T2D.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Please explain and provide the detailed information on what percentage of the DE list of bulk RNA-seq analysis in Figures 1D and 1E overlap with the DE list of pseudo-bulk RNA-seq analysis of all cells in Figure S2C.

      Addressed in response to R1 Comment 1.

      Please provide the definition of each cluster of UMAP of the merged human islet scRNA-seq data.

      In figure panels 2A-B,D-G and 3A, the clusters are now labeled according to the marker genes described in Fig 2C.

      The integrative UMAP needs to be included in the main figure.

      We have now moved previous Fig S2A and S2B into the main figures as new Fig 2A-B.

      All figures and supplemental figures need to be cited following sequence.

      Addressed in response to R1 Comment 3.

      In Figure 7, high-resolution images are needed to determine the colocalization of INS and DLK1.

      Addressed in response to R1 Comment 4.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Results: 124-128: Fig 1H_The error bars seem high, please include whether the boxplots are SEM or SD. Also, more detail on statistics is missing.

      Thank you for pointing out the need for clarification here. The whiskers on the box and whiskers plots are not error bars. By default, in geom_boxplot() and stat_boxplot(), the whiskers extend to 1.5 times the interquartile range. The box itself represents 50% of the data, the bottom of the box is the first quartile, the middle horizontal line is the median, and the top line of the box is the third quartile. We have now added a clearer description of this to the figure legend and in the methods section.

      The genes shown in Fig 1H were selected because they are found in the T2D Knowledge Portal, illustrating a clear link to T2D. At the T2DKP (https://t2d.hugeamp.org/research.html?pageid=mccarthy_t2d_247), PAX4 and APOE are listed as causal, SLC2A2 has strong evidence, and CYTIP has a linked SNP. This is now discussed in the results section before the Fig 1H callout. These genes are significantly differentially expressed using edgeR in panel 1D with FDR<0.05. The individual data points for each human are shown.

      Figure 6: In general, the representation of the data is quite misleading. It would be nice to have an alternative way of presenting the data, especially when comparing beta-obese differentially expressed genes and pathways and T2D beta obese. Maybe an additional Venn diagram can help. Also, it would be nice to compare data from T2D beta nonobese to ND beta obese, especially given how the story is presented in the paper.

      Thank you for pointing out this clarity issue. We agree that additional alternate ways to present the data would be helpful. When we performed DEGAS using BMI as the disease feature we noted two major and one minor clusters of high-scoring cells in Fig 6A .

      Author response image 1.

      Author response image 2.<br />

      This contrasted with the score map when we ran DEGAS with T2D as the disease feature

      The main difference seems to be the low scoring β<sup>T2D-DEGAS</sup> cluster is different from the low β<sup>obese-DEGAS</sup> cluster.

      Therefore, we could not easily apply thresholding to the β<sup>obese-DEGAS</sup> scores, so instead we subsetted them for comparison. It was also apparent from the metadata that single cells from the left-hand side of the β-cell cluster came from donors that had T2D.

      To clarify these points and address the reviewer’s concerns, we have added a comparison of the DEGs identified for β<sup>T2D-DEGAS</sup> high vs. low and T2D-β<sup>obese-DEGAS</sup> vs ND-β<sup>obese-DEGAS</sup> in Fig S4J, also shown below. DLK1 and CDKNC1C fall within the intersection, in addition to being two of the most enriched candidates in each DEGAS run (Fig 4C and Fig 6D).

      220-222: Figure 7C_ Is one of the nondiabetic beta samples obese? If so, please clearly label it; if not, that info is missing. One would expect that the DLK1 expression in ND obese beta cells resembles the T2D beta cell and not ND non-obese beta cells. That's a big point of this entire work, and experimentally missing. Additional candidate proteins should be checked.

      We have amended the entire Fig 7 to include more data for DLK1 staining as well as adding staining for CDKN1C. We also used CellProfiler to quantify the intensity distribution of DLK1 staining in β-cells and overall found that our initial conclusions were not supported when considering an increased sample size. DLK1 expression is heterogeneous both within and between donors. While we have data from T2D donors that shows DLK1 is lost, other T2D samples indicate that DLK1 is not always lost. At least in the current sample set we have analyzed, we cannot conclude that there is a clear correlation between diabetes or BMI for DLK1. Why DLK1 labels some β-cells and not others and what the role of this subpopulation is an open question.

      Alternatively, we greatly appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion to validate additional candidates, as this led us to CDKN1C. In new Fig 7E-H we now show that CDKN1C is increased in T2D β-cells, in agreement with the DEGAS predictions.

      This work shows that machine learning approaches are powerful for identifying potential candidates, but it also highlights the need for these predictions to be validated at the protein level in human samples.

      Discussion: Based on lack of supporting IHC data, this is an overstatement:

      “DLK1 expression highly overlapped with high scoring βT2D DEGAS cells (Figure 7A) and with T2D βobese-DEGAS cells (Figure 7B). DLK1 immunostaining primarily colocalized with β-cells in non-diabetic human pancreas (Figure 7C). DLK1 showed heterogeneous expression within islets and between islets within the same pancreas section, wherein some islets had DLK1/INS co-staining in most β-cells and other islets had only a few DLK1+ β-cells. In the T2D pancreas, DLK1 staining was much less intense and in fewer β-cells, yet DLK1+/INS+ cells were observed (Figure 7C). This contrasts with the relatively higher DLK1 gene expression seen in the β-cells from the βT2D-DEGAS and T2D-βobese-DEGAS subpopulations (Figure 4D & 6C) as highlighted in Figure 7A,B. which were up- or down-regulated in subpopulations of β-cells identified by DEGAS, and to validate our findings at the protein level using immunohistochemistry of pancreas tissue from non-diabetic and T2D organ donors.”

      This part was at the very end of the last results subsection. This section has been largely rewritten to better describe the new figure and the language has been tempered to not overinterpret the data shown.

      “Our current findings applying DEGAS to islet data have implications for β-cell heterogeneity in T2D and obesity. The abundance of T2D-related factors and functional β-cell genes in our analysis validates applying DEGAS to islet data to identify disease-associated phenotypes and increase confidence in the novel candidate.”

      This part was found at the end of the Background section. We have removed the second sentence to temper the language.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      The objective of this study was to infer the population dynamics (rates of differentiation, division, and loss) and lineage relationships of clonally expanding NK cell subsets during an acute immune response. 

      Strengths: 

      A rich dataset and thorough analysis of a particular class of stochastic models. 

      We thank the reviewer for the positive comment.

      Weaknesses: 

      The stochastic models used are quite simple; each population is considered homogeneous with first-order rates of division, death, and differentiation. In Markov process models such as these, there is no dependence of cellular behavior on its history of divisions. In recent years models of clonal expansion and diversification, in the settings of T and B cells, have progressed beyond this picture. So I was a little surprised that there was no mention of the literature exploring the role of replicative history in differentiation (e.g. Bresser Nat Imm 2022), nor of the notion of family 'division destinies' (either in division number or the time spent proliferating, as described by the Cyton and Cyton2 models developed by Hodgkin and collaborators; e.g. Heinzel Nat Imm 2017). The emerging view is that variability in clone (family) size may arise predominantly from the signals delivered at activation, which dictate each precursor's subsequent degree of expansion, rather than from the fluctuations deriving from division and death modeled as Poisson processes. 

      As you pointed out, the Gerlach and Buchholz Science papers showed evidence for highly skewed distributions of family sizes and correlations between family size and phenotypic composition. Is it possible that your observed correlations could arise if the propensity for immature CD27+ cells to differentiate into mature CD27- cells increases with division number? The relative frequency of the two populations would then also be impacted by differences in the division rates of each subset - one would need to explore this. But depending on the dependence of the differentiation rate on division number, there may be parameter regimes (and time points) at which the more differentiated cells can predominate within large clones even if they divide more slowly than their immature precursors. One might not then be able to rule out the two-state model. I would like to see a discussion or rebuttal of these issues. 

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful comment and drawing our attention to the Cyton models. We have discussed the Cyton models in the Introduction (lines 80-95) and the Discussion (lines 538-553) sections of the revised manuscript and carried out simulations for the variant of the Cyton model suggested by the reviewer. The two-state model showed that for certain parameters it can give rise to a negative correlation between the clone size and the percentage of immature (CD27+) NK cells in the absence of any death suggesting the potential importance of division destiny along with stochastic fluctuations in giving rise to the heterogeneity observed in NK cell clone size distributions in the expansion phase. In addition, we also considered a two-state model where the NK cell activation time in individual cells vary following a log-normal distribution; this two-state model also shows the presence of negative correlations between clone sizes and the percentage of immature NK cells within the clones. We have added new results (Figs. S2-3) and discussed the results (lines 223-232) in the Results and the Discussion (lines 538-553) sections. We believe these additional simulations provide new insights into the results we carried out with our two- and three- state models. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      Wethington et al. investigated the mechanistic principles underlying antigen-specific proliferation and memory formation in mouse natural killer (NK) cells following exposure to mouse cytomegalovirus (MCMV), a phenomenon predominantly associated with CD8+ T cells. Using a rigorous stochastic modeling approach, the authors aimed to develop a quantitative model of NK cell clonal dynamics during MCMV infection. 

      Initially, they proposed a two-state linear model to explain the composition of NK cell clones originating from a single immature Ly49+CD27+ NK cell at 8 days post-infection (dpi). Through stochastic simulations and analytical investigations, they demonstrated that a variant of the twostate model incorporating NK cell death could explain the observed negative correlation between NK clone sizes at 8 dpi and the percentage of immature (CD27+) NK cells (Page 8, Figure 1e, Supplementary Text 1). However, this two-state model failed to accurately reproduce the first (mean) and second (variance and covariance) moments of the measured CD27+ and CD27- NK cell populations within clones at 8 dpi (Figure 1g). 

      To address this limitation, the authors increased the model's complexity by introducing an intermediate maturation state, resulting in a three-stage model with the transition scheme: CD27+Ly6C- → CD27-Ly6C- → CD27-Ly6C+. This three-stage model quantitatively fits the first and second moments under two key constraints: (i) immature CD27+ NK cells exhibit faster proliferation than CD27- NK cells, and (ii) there is a negative correlation (upper bound: -0.2) between clone size and the fraction of CD27+ cells. The model predicted a high proliferation rate for the intermediate stage and a high death rate for the mature CD27-Ly6C+ cells. 

      Using NK cell reporter mice data from Adams et al. (2021), which tracked CD27+/- cell population dynamics following tamoxifen treatment, the authors validated the three-stage model. This dataset allowed discrimination between NK cells originating from the bone marrow and those pre-existing in peripheral blood at the onset of infection. To test the prediction that mature CD27- NK cells have a higher death rate, the authors measured Ly49H+ NK cell viability in the mice spleen at different time points post-MCMV infection. Experimental data confirmed that mature (CD27-) NK cells exhibited lower viability compared to immature (CD27+) NK cells during the expansion phase (days 4-8 post-infection). 

      Further mathematical analyses using a variant of the three-stage model supported the hypothesis that the higher death rate of mature CD27- cells contributes to a larger proportion of CD27- cells in the dead cell compartment, as introduced in the new variant model. 

      Altogether, the authors proposed a three-stage quantitative model of antigen-specific expansion and maturation of naïve Ly49H+ NK cells in mice. This model delineates a maturation trajectory: (i) CD27+Ly6C- (immature) → (ii) CD27-Ly6C- (mature I) → (iii) CD27-Ly6C+ (mature II). The findings highlight the highly proliferative nature of the mature I (CD27-Ly6C-) phenotype and the increased cell death rate characteristic of the mature II (CD27-Ly6C+) phenotype. 

      Strengths: 

      By designing models capable of explaining correlations, first and second moments, and employing analytical investigations, stochastic simulations, and model selection, the authors identified the key processes underlying antigen-specific expansion and maturation of NK cells. This model distinguishes the processes of antigen-specific expansion, contraction, and memory formation in NK cells from those observed in CD8+ T cells. Understanding these differences is crucial not only for elucidating the distinct biology of NK cells compared to CD8+ T cells but also for advancing the development of NK cell therapies currently under investigation. 

      We thank the reviewer for the positive comments.

      Weaknesses: 

      The conclusions of this paper are largely supported by the available data. However, a comparative analysis of model predictions with more recent works in the field would be desirable. Moreover, certain aspects of the simulations, parameter inference, and modeling require further clarification and expansion, as outlined below: 

      (1) Initial Conditions and Grassmann Data: The Grassmann data is used solely as a constraint, while the simulated values of CD27+/CD27- cells could have been directly fitted to the Grassmann data, which assumes a 1:1 ratio of CD27+/CD27- at t = 0. This approach would allow for an alternative initial condition rather than starting from a single CD27+ cell, potentially improving model applicability. 

      We fit the moments of the cell populations along with the ratio of resulting cells from an initial condition of 1:1 ratio of CD27+/CD27- cells at t=0 in the model. The initial condition agrees with the experimental data. However, this fit produced parameter values that will lead to greater growth of mature CD27- NK cells compared to that of immature CD27+ NK cells. This could result from the equal weights given to the ratio as well as to the different moments, and a realistic parameter estimate could correspond to an unequal weight between the ratio and the moments. Imposing the constraint Δ<sub>k</sub> >0 in the fitting drives the parameter search in the region, which seems to alleviate this issue that produces estimates of the rates consistent with higher growth of immature NK cells. We included Table S6 and accompanying description to show this, as well as an additional section in the Materials and Methods (lines 669-676). 

      (2) Correlation Coefficients in the Three-State Model: Although the parameter scan of the threestate model (Figure 2) demonstrates the potential for achieving negative correlations between colony size and the fraction of CD27+ cells, the authors did not present the calculated correlation coefficients using the estimated parameter values from fitting the three-state model to the data. Including these simulations would provide additional insight into the parameter space that supports negative correlations and further validate the model.  

      We have included this figure (Figure 2d) in the revised manuscript.

      (3) Viability Dynamics and Adaptive Response: The authors measured the time evolution of CD27+/- dynamics and viability over 30 days post-infection (Figure 4). It would be valuable to test whether the three-state model can reproduce the adaptive response of CD27- cells to MCMV infection, particularly the observed drop in CD27- viability at 5 dpi (prior to the 8 dpi used in the study) and its subsequent rebound at 8 dpi. Reproducing this aspect of the experiment is critical to determine whether the model can simultaneously explain viability dynamics and moment dynamics. Furthermore, this analysis could enable sensitivity analysis of CD27- viability with respect to various model parameters. 

      We have compared the expansion kinetics of the adoptively transferred Ly49H+ NK cells (Figure 2) and endogenous Ly49H+ NK cells, where the endogenous NK cells show slower growth rates than their adoptively transferred counterparts (see lines 422-429). The data shown in Figure 4 refer to the relative percentage of the mature and immature endogenous NK cells, thus cannot be explained by the three-state model calibrated by the expansion of the adoptively transferred NK cells. One of the issues with using the viability data for parameter estimation for endogenous cells is the need to assume a model for dead cell clearance. We assume a model where dead cells are cleared according to a first-order decay reaction and vary the rate of this reaction to show that the qualitative results are in line with our model rates. This model cannot recreate the dip and rebound observed in the data, and instead monotonically and asymptotically approaches a percentage of live cells. We have attached a figure showing this behavior below. Rather, we intend to use this model as qualitative validation that the relative viability of mature NK cells is lower than that of immature NK cells. Models that include time-dependence of clearance of dead cells, or models with a higher-order (i.e. second) reaction for clearance of dead cells in which propensity for clearance is lower at early times and greater at later times may be better suited for this purpose but are beyond the scope of our validation. 

      Author response image 1.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):  

      I think the manuscript could be improved substantially by exploring alternative models that incorporate replicative history. At the very least it needs a deeper discussion of the literature relating to clonal expansion, putting the existing models in the context of these studies, and arguing convincingly that your conclusions are robust.  

      We have substantially expanded our explorations with alternative models, in particular we considered a variant of the Cyton model suggested by Reviewer#1, a model where NK cells become activated at different times, and a model with asymmetric NK cell division. We have shown the results (Figs. S2-3) in the Supplementary material and discussed the results in the Results and Discussion sections. Please refer to our response #1 to Reviewer #1 for more details. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) Possible Typo (Page 12, Line 254): 

      The phrase: "immature NK cells compared to their immature counterparts" appears to contain a typo. Consider rephrasing for clarity. 

      Done. Thanks for finding this. 

      (2) Clarification of Data Source and Computational Procedure: 

      In the statement: "The NK cell clones reported by Flommersfeld et al. contained mixtures of CD27+ and CD27- NK cells. We evaluated the percentage of CD27+ NK cells in each clone and computed the correlation (Csize-CD27+) of the size of the clone with the percentage of CD27+ NK cells in the clones." Please clarify the data source and computational methodology for evaluating the percentage of CD27+ cells within clones. Additionally, consider including the curated data in the supplementary materials. Since the data originates from different immune compartments, explain which compartments were used. If data from all compartments were included, discuss how the calculated correlation changes when stratifying data from different sources (e.g., spleen and lymph nodes).  

      We have clarified the data source (spleen) where appropriate.

      (3) Figure 1b (Correlation Coefficient): 

      While the correlation coefficient with p-value is mentioned, it would be beneficial to also provide the standard deviation of the correlation coefficient and a 95% confidence band for the fitted line. This is particularly relevant as the authors use -0.2 as the upper bound for the correlation coefficient when fitting the three-stage model. 

      We have included the CI and the p-value for the correlation shown in Figure 1b. The figure with the 95% confidence band shown in the figure (appended below) where both axes are in normal scale does not appear visually clear as in Figure 1b where the clone sizes are shown in the logscale. Thus, we did not include the confidence band in Figure 1b but display the CI and p-values on the figure. If the reviewer prefers, we can include the figure with the confidence band in the SI.

      Author response image 2.

      (4) Confidence Intervals in Tables: 

      If confidence intervals in the tables are calculated using bootstrapping, please mention this explicitly in the table headings for clarity. 

      Done.

      (5) Figure 2d-e (Simulation Method): 

      Specify the simulation method used (e.g., stochastic simulation algorithm [SSA], as mentioned in the materials and methods). Panel (e) lacks a caption-please provide one. Additionally, it would be interesting to include the correlation between clone size and the fraction of CD27+ cells in the clones (similar to the experimental data from Flommersfeld et al., 2021). 

      Done.

      (6) Figure 3 (Confidence Band): 

      Include a 95% confidence band for the simulated values to enhance the interpretability of the plots. 

      Done.

      (7) Materials and Methods Section:  Include a mathematical formula defining the metrics described, ensuring clarity and precision. 

      Done. See newly added lines 587-599, as well as existing content in the Supplementary Materials.

      (8) Supplementary Text 1 (Numerical Integration and AICc): 

      The section "Numerical Integration of Master Equation and Calculation of the AICc" is well done. However, given that the master equation involves a system of 106 coupled ODEs, it would be highly appreciated if the authors provided the formulation in matrix representation for better comprehension. 

      We have included a supplementary text (Supplementary Text I) and a schematic figure within the text to provide the details.

      (9) Figure S7b (Three-State Model Validation): 

      Given that the three-state model fits the data, assess whether it can also fit the first and secondmoment data effectively. This validation would strengthen the robustness of the model.

      Although we showed that the best fit of the clonal burst data (moments) vastly overestimates the growth rates of endogenous cells (Figure S9a, previously Figure S7a), we did not fully emphasize the differences in the datasets that make fitting both with the same parameters impossible. We have added additional text in the main text where Figure S9a is located (lines 427-429) to discuss this.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      The study by Klug et al. investigated the pathway specificity of corticostriatal projections, focusing on two cortical regions. Using a G-deleted rabies system in D1-Cre and A2a-Cre mice to retrogradely deliver channelrhodopsin to cortical inputs, the authors found that M1 and MCC inputs to direct and indirect pathway spiny projection neurons (SPNs) are both partially segregated and asymmetrically overlapping. In general, corticostriatal inputs that target indirect pathway SPNs are likely to also target direct pathway SPNs, while inputs targeting direct pathway SPNs are less likely to also target indirect pathway SPNs. Such asymmetric overlap of corticostriatal inputs has important implications for how the cortex itself may determine striatal output. Indeed, the authors provide behavioral evidence that optogenetic activation of M1 or MCC cortical neurons that send axons to either direct or indirect pathway SPNs can have opposite effects on locomotion and different effects on action sequence execution. The conclusions of this study add to our understanding of how cortical activity may influence striatal output and offer important new clues about basal ganglia function. 

      The conceptual conclusions of the manuscript are supported by the data, but the details of the magnitude of afferent overlap and causal role of asymmetric corticostriatal inputs on behavioral outcomes were not yet fully resolved. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s thoughtful understanding and acknowledgment that the conceptual conclusion of asymmetric projections from the cortex to the striatum is well supported by our data. We also recognize the importance of further elucidating the extent of afferent overlap and the causal contributions of asymmetric corticostriatal inputs to behavioral outcomes. However, we respectfully note that current technical limitations pose significant challenges to addressing these questions with high precision.

      In response to the reviewer’s comments, we have now clarified the sample size, added proper analysis and elaborated on the experimental design to ensure that our conclusions are presented more transparently and are more accessible to the reader.

      After virally labeling either direct pathway (D1) or indirect pathway (D2) SPNs to optogenetically tag pathway-specific cortical inputs, the authors report that a much larger number of "non-starter" D2-SPNs from D2-SPN labeled mice responded to optogenetic stimulation in slices than "non-starter" D1 SPNs from D1-SPN labeled mice did. Without knowing the relative number of D1 or D2 SPN starters used to label cortical inputs, it is difficult to interpret the exact meaning of the lower number of responsive D2-SPNs in D1 labeled mice (where only ~63% of D1-SPNs themselves respond) compared to the relatively higher number of responsive D1-SPNs (and D2-SPNs) in D2 labeled mice. While relative differences in connectivity certainly suggest that some amount of asymmetric overlap of inputs exists, differences in infection efficiency and ensuing differences in detection sensitivity in slice experiments make determining the degree of asymmetry problematic. 

      Thank you for highlighting this point. As it lies at the core of our manuscript, we agree that it is essential to present it clearly and convincingly. As shown by the statistics (Fig. 2B-F), non-starter D1- and D2-SPNs appear to receive fewer projections from D1-projecting cortical neurons (Input D1-record D1, 0.63; Input D1-record D2, 0.40) compared to D2-projecting cortical neurons (Input D2 - record D1, 0.73; Input D2 -record D2, 0.79).

      While it is not technically feasible to quantify the number of infected cells in brain slices following electrophysiological recordings, we addressed this limitation by collecting data from multiple animals and restricting recordings to cells located within the injection sites. In Figure 2D, we used 7 mice in the D1-projecting to D1 EGFP(+) group, 8 mice in the D1-projecting to D2 EGFP(-) group, 10 mice in the D2-projecting to D2 EGFP(+) group, and 8 mice in the D2-projecting to D1 EGFP(-) group. In Figure 2G, the group sizes were as follows: 8 mice in the D1-projecting to D2 EGFP(+) group, 7 mice in the D1-projecting to D1 EGFP(-) group, 8 mice in the D2-projecting to D1 EGFP(+) group, and 10 mice in the D2-projecting to D2 EGFP(-) group. In both panels, connection ratios were compared using Fisher’s exact test. Comparisons were then made across experimental groups. Furthermore, as detailed in our Methods section (page 20, line 399-401), we assessed cortical expression levels prior to performing whole-cell recordings. Taken together, these precautions help ensure that the calculated connection ratios are unlikely to be confounded by differences in infection efficiency.

      It is also unclear if retrograde labeling of D1-SPN- vs D2-SPN- targeting afferents labels the same densities of cortical neurons. This gets to the point of specificity in the behavioral experiments. If the target-based labeling strategies used to introduce channelrhodopsin into specific SPN afferents label significantly different numbers of cortical neurons, might the difference in the relative numbers of optogenetically activated cortical neurons itself lead to behavioral differences? 

      Thank you for bringing this concern to our attention. While optogenetic manipulation has become a widely adopted tool in functional studies of neural circuits, it remains subject to several technical limitations due to the nature of its implementation. Factors such as opsin expression efficiency, optic fiber placement, light intensity, stimulation spread, and other variables can all influence the specificity and extent of neuronal activation or inhibition. As such, rigorous experimental controls are essential when interpreting the outcomes of optogenetic experiments.

      In our study, we verified both the expression of channelrhodopsin in D1- or D2-projecting cortical neurons and the placement of the optic fiber following the completion of behavioral testing. To account for variability, we compared the behavioral effects of optogenetic stimulation within the same animals, stimulated versus non-stimulated conditions, as shown in Figures 3 and 4. Moreover, Figure S3 includes important controls that rule out the possibility that the behavioral effects observed were due to direct activation of D1- or D2-SPNs in striatum or to light alone in the cortex.

      An additional point worth emphasizing is that the behavioral effects observed in the open field and ICSS tests cannot be attributed to differences in the number of neurons activated. Specifically, activation of D1-projecting cortical neurons promoted locomotion in the open field, whereas activation of D2-projecting cortical neurons did not. However, in the ICSS test, activation of both D1- and D2-projecting cortical neurons reinforced lever pressing. Given that only D1-SPN activation, but not D2-SPN activation, supports ICSS behavior, these effects are unlikely to result merely from differences in the number of neurons recruited.

      This rationale underlies our use of multiple behavioral paradigms to examine the functions of D1- and D2-projecting cortical neurons. By assessing behavior across distinct tasks, we aimed to approach the question from multiple angles and reduce the likelihood of spurious or confounding effects influencing our interpretation.

      In general, the manuscript would also benefit from more clarity about the statistical comparisons that were made and sample sizes used to reach their conclusions.

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable suggestion to improve the manuscript. In response, we have made the following changes and provided additional clarification:

      (1) In Figure 2D, we used 7 mice in the D1-projecting to D1 EGFP(+) group, 8 mice in the D1-projecting to D2 EGFP(-) group, 10 mice in the D2-projecting to D2 EGFP(+) group, and 8 mice in the D2-projecting to D1 EGFP(-) group. In Figure 2G, the group sizes were as follows: 8 mice in the D1-projecting to D2 EGFP(+) group, 7 mice in the D1-projecting to D1 EGFP(-) group, 8 mice in the D2-projecting to D1 EGFP(+) group, and 10 mice in the D2-projecting to D2 EGFP(-) group. In both panels, connection ratios were compared using Fisher’s exact test.

      (2) In Figure 3, we reanalyzed the data in panels O, P, R, and S using permutation tests to assess whether each individual group exhibited a significant ICSS learning effect. The figure legend has been revised accordingly as follows:

      (O-P) D1-SPN (red) but not D2-SPN stimulation (black) drives ICSS behavior in both the DMS (O: D1, n = 6, permutation test, slope = 1.5060, P = 0.0378; D2, n = 5, permutation test, slope = -0.2214, P = 0.1021; one-tailed Mann Whitney test, Day 7 D1 vs. D2, P = 0.0130) and the DLS (P: D1, n = 6, permutation test, slope = 28.1429, P = 0.0082; D2, n = 5, permutation test, slope = -0.3429, P = 0.0463; one-tailed Mann Whitney test, Day 7 D1 vs. D2, P = 0.0390). *, P < 0.05. (Q) Timeline of helper virus injections, rabies-ChR2 injections and optogenetic stimulation for ICSS behavior. (R-S) Optogenetic stimulation of the cortical neurons projecting to either D1- or D2-SPNs induces ICSS behavior in both the MCC (R: MCC-D1, n = 5, permutation test, Day1-Day7, slope = 2.5857, P = 0.0034; MCC-D2, n = 5, Day2-Day7, permutation test, slope = 1.4229, P = 0.0344; no significant effect on Day7, MCC-D1 vs. MCC-D2,  two-tailed Mann Whitney test, P = 0.9999) and the M1 (S: M1-D1, n = 5, permutation test, Day1-Day7, slope = 1.8214, P = 0.0259; M1-D2, n = 5, Day1-Day7, permutation test, slope = 1.8214, P = 0.0025; no significant effect on Day7, M1-D1 vs. M1-D2, two-tailed Mann Whitney test, P = 0.3810). n.s., not statistically significant.

      (3) In Figure 4, we have added a comparison against a theoretical percentage change of zero to better evaluate the net effect of each manipulation. The results showed that in Figure 4D, optogenetic stimulation of D1-projecting MCC neurons significantly increased the pressing rate, whereas stimulation of D2-projecting MCC neurons did not (MCC-D1: n = 8, one-sample two-tailed t-test, t = 2.814, P = 0.0131; MCC-D2: n = 7, t = 0.8481, P = 0.4117). In contrast, in Figure 4H, optogenetic stimulation of both D1- and D2-projecting M1 neurons significantly increased the sequence press rate (M1-D1: n = 6, one-sample two-tailed Wilcoxon signed-rank test, P = 0.0046; M1-D2: n = 7, P = 0.0479).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary: 

      Klug et al. use monosynaptic rabies tracing of inputs to D1- vs D2-SPNs in the striatum to study how separate populations of cortical neurons project to D1- and D2-SPNs. They use rabies to express ChR2, then patch D1-or D2-SPNs to measure synaptic input. They report that cortical neurons labeled as D1-SPN-projecting preferentially project to D1-SPNs over D2-SPNs. In contrast, cortical neurons labeled as D2-SPN-projecting project equally to D1- and D2-SPNs. They go on to conduct pathway-specific behavioral stimulation experiments. They compare direct optogenetic stimulation of D1- or D2-SPNs to stimulation of MCC inputs to DMS and M1 inputs to DLS. In three different behavioral assays (open field, intra-cranial self-stimulation, and a fixed ratio 8 task), they show that stimulating MCC or M1 cortical inputs to D1-SPNs is similar to D1-SPN stimulation, but that stimulating MCC or M1 cortical inputs to D2-SPNs does not recapitulate the effects of D2-SPN stimulation (presumably because both D1- and D2-SPNs are being activated by these cortical inputs). 

      Strengths: 

      Showing these same effects in three distinct behaviors is strong. Overall, the functional verification of the consequences of the anatomy is very nice to see. It is a good choice to patch only from mCherry-negative non-starter cells in the striatum.

      Thank you for your profound understanding and appreciation of our manuscript’s design and the methodologies employed. In the realm of neuroscience, quantifying synaptic connections is a formidable challenge. While the roles of the direct and indirect pathways in motor control have long been explored, the mechanism by which upstream cortical inputs govern these pathways remains shrouded in mystery at the circuitry level.

      In the ‘Go/No-Go’ model, the direct and indirect pathways operate antagonistically; in contrast, the ‘Co-activation’ model suggests that they work cooperatively to orchestrate movement. These distinct theories raise a compelling question: Do these two pathways receive inputs from the same upstream cortical neurons, or are they modulated by distinct subpopulations? Answering this question could provide vital clues as to whether these pathways collaborate or operate independently.

      Previous studies have revealed both differences and similarities in the cortical inputs to direct and indirect pathways at population level. However, our investigation delves deeper to understand how a singular cortical input simultaneously drives these pathways, or might it regulate one pathway through distinct subpopulations? To address this, we employed rabies virus–mediated retrograde tracing from D1- or D2-SPNs and recorded non-starter SPNs to determine if they receive the same inputs as the starter SPNs. This approach allowed us to calculate the connection ratio and estimate the probable connection properties.

      Weaknesses: 

      One limitation is that all inputs to SPNs are expressing ChR2, so they cannot distinguish between different cortical subregions during patching experiments. Their results could arise because the same innervation patterns are repeated in many cortical subregions or because some subregions have preferential D1-SPN input while others do not.

      Thank you for raising this thoughtful concern. It is indeed not feasible to restrict ChR2 expression to a specific cortical region using the first-generation rabies-ChR2 system alone. A more refined approach would involve injecting Cre-dependent TVA and RG into the striatum of D1- or A2A-Cre mice, followed by rabies-Flp infection. Subsequently, a Flp-dependent ChR2 virus could be injected into the MCC or M1 to selectively label D1- or D2-projecting cortical neurons. This strategy would allow for more precise targeting and address many of the current limitations.

      However, a significant challenge lies in the cytotoxicity associated with rabies virus infection. Neuronal health begins to deteriorate substantially around 10 days post-infection, which provides an insufficient window for robust Flp-dependent ChR2 expression. We have tested several new rabies virus variants with extended survival times (Chatterjee et al., 2018; Jin et al., 2024), but unfortunately, they did not perform effectively or suitably in the corticostriatal systems we examined.

      In our experimental design, the aim is to delineate the connectivity probabilities to D1 or D2-SPNs from cortical neurons. Our hypothesis considered includes the possibility that similar innervation patterns could occur across multiple cortical subregions, or that some subregions might show preferential input to D1-SPNs while others do not, or a combination of both scenarios. This leads us to perform a series behavior test that using optogenetic activation of the D1- or D2-projecting cortical populations to see which could be the case.

      In the cortical areas we examined, MCC and M1, during behavioral testing, there is consistency with our electrophysiological results. Specifically, when we stimulated the D1-projecting cortical neurons either in MCC or in M1, mice exhibited facilitated local motion in open field test, which is the same to the activation of D1 SPNs in the striatum along (MCC: Fig 3C & D vs. I; M1: Fig 3F & G vs. L). Conversely, stimulation of D2-projecting MCC or M1 cortical neurons resulted in behavioral effects that appeared to combine characteristics of both D1- and D2-SPNs activation in the striatum (MCC: Fig 3C & D vs. J; M1: Fig 3F & G vs. M). The similar results were observed in the ICSS test. Our interpretation of these results is that the activation of D1-projecting neurons in the cortex induces behavior changes akin to D1 neuron activation, while activation of D2-projecting neurons in the cortex leads to a combined effect of both D1 and D2 neuron activation. This suggests that at least some cortical regions, the ones we tested, follow the hypothesis we proposed.

      There are also some caveats with respect to the efficacy of rabies tracing. Although they only patch non-starter cells in the striatum, only 63% of D1-SPNs receive input from D1-SPN-projecting cortical neurons. It's hard to say whether this is "high" or "low," but one question is how far from the starter cell region they are patching. Without this spatial indication of where the cells that are being patched are relative to the starter population, it is difficult to interpret if the cells being patched are receiving cortical inputs from the same neurons that are projecting to the starter population. Convergence of cortical inputs onto SPNs may vary with distance from the starter cell region quite dramatically, as other mapping studies of corticostriatal inputs have shown specialized local input regions can be defined based on cortical input patterns (Hintiryan et al., Nat Neurosci, 2016, Hunnicutt et al., eLife 2016, Peters et al., Nature, 2021).

      This is a valid concern regarding anatomical studies. Investigating cortico-striatal connectivity at the single-cell level remains technically challenging due to current methodological limitations. At present, we rely on rabies virus-mediated trans-synaptic retrograde tracing to identify D1- or D2-projecting cortical populations. This anatomical approach is coupled with ex vivo slice electrophysiology to assess the functional connectivity between these projection-defined cortical neurons and striatal SPNs. This enables us to quantify connection ratios, for example, the proportion of D1-projecting cortical neurons that functionally synapse onto non-starter D1-SPNs.

      To ensure the robustness of our conclusions, it is essential that both the starter cells and the recorded non-starter SPNs receive comparable topographical input from the cortex and other brain regions. Therefore, we carefully designed our experiments so that all recorded cells were located within the injection site, were mCherry-negative (i.e., non-starter cells), and were surrounded by ChR2-mCherry-positive neurons. This configuration ensured that the distance between recorded and starter cells did not exceed 100 µm, maintaining close anatomical proximity and thereby preserving the likelihood of shared cortical innervation within the examined circuitry.

      These methodological details are also described in the section on ex vivo brain slice electrophysiology, specifically in the Methods section, lines 396–399:

      “D1-SPNs (eGFP-positive in D1-eGFP mice, or eGFP-negative in D2-eGFP mice) or D2-SPNs (eGFP-positive in D2-eGFP mice, or eGFP-negative in D1-eGFP mice) that were ChR2-mCherry-negative, but in the injection site and surrounded by cells expressing ChR2-mCherry were targeted for recording.”

      This experimental strategy was implemented to control for potential spatial biases and to enhance the interpretability of our connectivity measurements.

      A caveat for the optogenetic behavioral experiments is that these optogenetic experiments did not include fluorophore-only controls.

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention. A fluorophore-only control is indeed a valuable negative control, commonly used to rule out effects caused by light exposure independent of optogenetic manipulation. In this study, however, comparisons were made between light-on and light-off conditions within the same animal. This within-subject design, as employed in recent studies (Geddes et al., 2018; Zhu et al., 2025), is considered sufficient to isolate the effects of optogenetic manipulation.

      Furthermore, as shown in Figure S3, we conducted an additional control experiment in which optogenetic stimulation was applied to M1, while ensuring that ChR2 expression was restricted to the striatum via targeted viral infection. This approach serves as a functional equivalent to the control you suggested. Importantly, we observed no effects that could be attributed solely to light exposure, further supporting the conclusion that the observed outcomes in our main experiments are due to targeted optogenetic manipulation, rather than confounding effects of illumination.

      Lastly, by employing an in-animal comparison, measuring changes between stimulated and non-stimulated trials, we account for subject-specific variability and strengthen the interpretability of our findings.

      Another point of confusion is that other studies (Cui et al, J Neurosci, 2021) have reported that stimulation of D1-SPNs in DLS inhibits rather than promotes movement.

      Thank you for bringing the study by Cui and colleagues to our attention. While that study has generated some controversy, other independent investigations have demonstrated that activation of D1-SPNs in DLS facilitates local motion and lever-press behaviors (Dong et al., 2025; Geddes et al., 2018; Kravitz et al., 2010).

      It is still worth to clarify. The differences in behavioral outcomes observed between our study and that of Cui et al. may be attributable to several methodological factors, including differences in both the stereotaxic targeting coordinates and the optical fiber specifications used for stimulation.

      Specifically, in our experiments, the dorsomedial striatum (DMS) was targeted at coordinates AP +0.5 mm, ML ±1.5 mm, DV –2.2 mm, and the DLS at AP +0.5 mm, ML ±2.5 mm, DV –2.2 mm. In contrast, Cui et al. targeted the DMS at AP +0.9 mm, ML ±1.4 mm, DV –3.0 mm and the DLS at AP +0.7 mm, ML ±2.3 mm, DV –3.0 mm. These coordinates correspond to sites that are slightly more rostral and ventral compared to our own. Even subtle differences in anatomical targeting can result in activation of distinct neuronal subpopulations, which may account for the differing behavioral effects observed during optogenetic stimulation.

      In addition, the optical fibers used in the two studies varied considerably. We employed fibers with a 200 µm core diameter and a numerical aperture (NA) of 0.37, whereas Cui et al. used fibers with a 250 µm core diameter and a higher NA of 0.66. The combination of a larger core and higher NA in their setup implies a broader spatial spread and deeper tissue penetration of light, likely resulting in activation of a larger neural volume. This expanded volume of stimulation may have engaged additional neural circuits not recruited in our experiments, further contributing to the divergent behavioral outcomes. Taken together, these differences in targeting and photostimulation parameters are likely key contributors to the distinct effects reported between the two studies.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      In the manuscript by Klug and colleagues, the investigators use a rabies virus-based methodology to explore potential differences in connectivity from cortical inputs to the dorsal striatum. They report that the connectivity from cortical inputs onto D1 and D2 MSNs differs in terms of their projections onto the opposing cell type, and use these data to infer that there are differences in cross-talk between cortical cells that project to D1 vs. D2 MSNs. Overall, this manuscript adds to the overall body of work indicating that there are differential functions of different striatal pathways which likely arise at least in part by differences in connectivity that have been difficult to resolve due to difficulty in isolating pathways within striatal connectivity and several interesting and provocative observations were reported. Several different methodologies are used, with partially convergent results, to support their main points.

      However, I have significant technical concerns about the manuscript as presented that make it difficult for me to interpret the results of the experiments. My comments are below.

      Major:

      There is generally a large caveat to the rabies studies performed here, which is that both TVA and the ChR2-expressing rabies virus have the same fluorophore. It is thus essentially impossible to determine how many starter cells there are, what the efficiency of tracing is, and which part of the striatum is being sampled in any given experiment. This is a major caveat given the spatial topography of the cortico-striatal projections. Furthermore, the authors make a point in the introduction about previous studies not having explored absolute numbers of inputs, yet this is not at all controlled in this study. It could be that their rabies virus simply replicates better in D1-MSNs than D2-MSNs. No quantifications are done, and these possibilities do not appear to have been considered. Without a greater standardization of the rabies experiments across conditions, it is difficult to interpret the results.

      We thank the reviewer for raising these questions, which merit further discussion.

      Firstly, the primary aim of our study is to investigate the connectivity of the corticostriatal pathway. Given the current technical limitations, it is not feasible to trace all the striatal SPNs connected to a single cortical neuron. Therefore, we approached this from the opposite direction, starting from D1- or D2-SPNs to retrogradely label upstream cortical neurons, and then identifying their connected SPNs via functional synaptic recordings. To achieve this, we employed the only available transsynaptic retrograde method: rabies virus-mediated tracing. Because we crossed D1- or D2-GFP mice with D1- or A2A-Cre mice to identify SPN subtypes during electrophysiological recordings, the conventional rabies-GFP system could not be used to distinguish starter cells without conflicting with the GFP labeling of SPNs. To overcome this, we tagged ChR2 expression with mCherry. In this setup, we recorded from mCherry-negative D1- or D2-SPNs within the injection site and surrounded by mCherry-positive neurons. This ensures that the recorded neurons are topographically matched to the starter cell population and receive input from the same cortical regions. We acknowledge that TVA-only and ChR2-expressing cells are both mCherry-positive and therefore indistinguishable in our system. As such, mCherry-positive cells likely comprise a mixture of starter cells and TVA-only cells, representing a somewhat broader population than starter cells alone. Nevertheless, by restricting recordings to mCherry-negative SPNs within the injection site, it is ensured that our conclusions about functional connectivity remain valid and aligned with the primary objective of this study.

      Secondly, if rabies virus replication were significantly more efficient in D1-SPNs than in D2-SPNs, this would likely result in a higher observed connection probability in the D1-projecting group. However, we used consistent genetic strategies across all groups: D1-SPNs were defined as GFP-positive in D1-GFP mice and GFP-negative in D2-GFP mice, with D2-SPNs defined analogously. Recordings from both D1- and D2-SPNs were performed using the same methodology and under the same injection conditions within the same animals. This internal control helps mitigate the possibility that differential rabies infection efficiency biased our results.

      With these experimental safeguards in place, we found that 40% of D2-SPNs received input from D1-SPN-projecting cortical neurons, while 73% of D1-SPNs received input from D2-SPN-projecting cortical neurons. Although the ideal scenario would involve an even larger sample size to refine these estimates, the technical demands of post-rabies-infection electrophysiological recordings inherently limit throughput. Nonetheless, our approach represents the most feasible and accurate method currently available, and provides a significant advance in characterizing the functional connectivity within corticostriatal circuits.

      The authors claim using a few current clamp optical stimulation experiments that the cortical cells are healthy, but this result was far from comprehensive. For example, membrane resistance, capacitance, general excitability curves, etc are not reported. In Figure S2, some of the conditions look quite different (e.g., S2B, input D2-record D2, the method used yields quite different results that the authors write off as not different). Furthermore, these experiments do not consider the likely sickness and death that occurs in starter cells, as has been reported elsewhere. The health of cells in the circuit is overall a substantial concern that alone could invalidate a large portion, if not all, of the behavioral results. This is a major confound given those neurons are thought to play critical roles in the behaviors being studied. This is a major reason why first-generation rabies viruses have not been used in combination with behavior, but this significant caveat does not appear to have been considered, and controls e.g., uninfected animals, infected with AAV helpers, etc, were not included.

      We understand and appreciate the reviewer’s concern regarding the potential cytotoxicity of rabies virus infection. Indeed, this is a critical consideration when interpreting functional connectivity data. We have tested several newer rabies virus variants reported to support extended survival times (Chatterjee et al., 2018; Jin et al., 2024), but unfortunately, these variants did not perform reliably in the corticostriatal circuits we examined.

      Given these limitations, we relied on the rabies virus approach originally developed by Osakada et al. (Osakada et al., 2011), which demonstrated that neurons infected with rabies virus expressing ChR2 remain both viable and functional up to at least 10 days post-infection (Fig. 3, cited below). In our own experiments, we further validated the health and viability of cortical neurons, the presynaptic partners of SPNs, particularly around day 7 post-infection.

      To minimize the risk of viral toxicity, we performed ex vivo slice recordings within a conservative time window, between 4 and 8 days after infection, when the health of labeled neurons is well maintained. Moreover, the recorded SPNs were consistently mCherry-negative, indicating they were not directly infected by rabies virus, thus further reducing the likelihood of recording from compromised cells.

      Taken together, these steps help ensure that our synaptic recordings reflect genuine functional connectivity, rather than artifacts of viral toxicity. We hope this clarifies the rationale behind our experimental design.

      For the behavioral tests, including a naïve uninfected group and an AAV helper virus-only group as negative controls could be beneficial to isolate the specific impact of rabies virus infection. However, our primary focus is on the activation of selected presynaptic inputs to D1- or D2-SPNs by optogenetic method. Therefore, comparing stimulated versus non-stimulated trials within the same animal offers more direct and relevant results for our study objectives.

      It is also important to note that the ICSS test is particularly susceptible to the potential cytotoxic effects of rabies virus, as it spans a relatively extended period, from Day 4 to Day 12 post-infection. To mitigate this issue, we focused our analysis on the first 7 days of ICSS testing, thereby keeping the behavioral observations within 10 days post-rabies injection. This approach minimizes potential confounds from rabies-induced neurotoxicity while still capturing the relevant behavioral dynamics. Accordingly, we have revised Figure 3 and updated the statistical analyses to reflect this adjustment.

      The overall purity (e.g., EnvA-pseudotyping efficiency) of the RABV prep is not shown. If there was a virus that was not well EnvA-pseudotyped and thus could directly infect cortical (or other) inputs, it would degrade specificity.

      We agree that anatomical specificity is crucial for accurately labeling inputs to defined SPN populations in our study. The rabies virus strain employed here has been rigorously validated for its specificity in numerous previous studies from our group and others (Aoki et al., 2019; Klug et al., 2018; Osakada et al., 2011; Smith et al., 2016; Wall et al., 2013; Wickersham et al., 2007). For example, in a recent study by Aoki et al. (Aoki et al., 2019), we tested the same rabies virus strain by co-injecting the glycoprotein-deleted rabies virus and the TVA-expressing helper virus, without glycoprotein expressing AAV, into the SNr. As shown in Figure S1 (related to Figure 2), GFP expression was restricted to starter cells within the SNr, with no evidence of transsynaptic labeling in upstream regions such as the striatum, EPN, GPe, or STN (see panels F–H). These findings provide strong evidence that the rabies virus used in our experiments is properly pseudotyped and exhibits high specificity for starter cell labeling without off-target spread.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s emphasis on specificity, and we hope this clarification further supports the reliability of our anatomical tracing approach.

      While most of the study focuses on the cortical inputs, in slice recordings, inputs from the thalamus are not considered, yet likely contribute to the observed results. Related to this, in in vivo optogenetic experiments, technically, if the thalamic or other inputs to the dorsal striatum project to the cortex, their method will not only target cortical neurons but also terminals of other excitatory inputs. If this cannot be ruled it, stating that the authors are able to selectively activate the cortical inputs to one or the other population should be toned down.

      We agree with the reviewer that the thalamus is also a significant source of excitatory input to the striatum. However, current techniques do not allow for precise and exclusive labeling of upstream neurons in a given brain region, such as the cortex or thalamus. This technical limitation indeed makes it difficult to definitively determine whether inputs from these regions follow the same projection rules. Despite this, our findings show that stimulation of defined cortical populations, specifically, D1- or D2-projecting neurons in MCC and M1, elicits behavioral outcomes that closely mirror those observed in our ex vivo slice recordings, providing strong support for the cortical origin of the effects we observed.

      In our in vivo optogenetic experiments, we acknowledge that stimulating a specific cortical region may also activate axonal terminals from rabies-infected cortical or thalamic neurons. While somatic stimulation is generally more effective than terminal stimulation, we recognize the possibility that terminals on non-rabies-traced cortical neurons could be activated through presynaptic connections. To address this, we considered the finding of a previous study (Cruikshank et al., 2010), which demonstrated that while brief optogenetic stimulation (0.05 ms) of thalamo-cortical terminals can elicit few action potentials in postsynaptic cortical neurons, sustained terminal stimulation (500 ms) also results in only transient postsynaptic firing rather than prolonged activation (Fig. 3C, cited below). This suggests that cortical neurons exhibit only short-lived responses to continuous presynaptic stimulation of thalamic origin.

      In comparison, our behavioral paradigms employed prolonged optogenetic stimulation protocols- 20 Hz, 10 ms pulses for 15 s (open-field test), 1 s (ICSS), and 8 s (FR4/8)—which more closely resemble sustained stimulation conditions. Given these parameters, and the robust behavioral responses observed, it means that the effects are primarily mediated by activation of rabies-labeled, ChR2-expressing D1- or D2-projecting cortical neurons rather than indirect activation through thalamic input.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s valuable comment, and we have now incorporated this point into the revised manuscript (page 13, line 265 to 275) to more clearly address the potential contribution of thalamic inputs in our experimental design.

      The statements about specificity of connectivity are not well-founded. It may be that in the specific case where they are assessing outside of the area of injections, their conclusions may hold (e.g., excitatory inputs onto D2s have more inputs onto D1s than vice versa). However, how this relates to the actual site of injection is not clear. At face value, if such a connectivity exists, it would suggest that D1-MSNs receive substantially more overall excitatory inputs than D2s. It is thus possible that this observation would not hold over other spatial intervals. This was not explored and thus the conclusions are over-generalized. e.g., the distance from the area of red cells in the striatum to recordings was not quantified, what constituted a high level of cortical labeling was not quantified, etc. Without more rigorous quantification of what was being done, it is difficult to interpret the results. 

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for the thoughtful comments and critical insights into our interpretation of connectivity data. These concerns are valid and provide an important opportunity to clarify and reinforce our experimental design and conclusions.

      Firstly, as described in our previous response, all patched neurons were carefully selected to be within the injection site and in close proximity to ChR2-mCherry-positive cells. Specifically, the estimated distance from each recorded neuron to the nearest starter cells did not exceed 100 µm. This design choice was made to minimize variability associated with spatial distance or heterogeneity in viral expression, thereby allowing for a more consistent sampling of putatively connected neurons.

      Secondly, quantifying both the number of starter and input neurons would, in principle, provide a more comprehensive picture of connectivity. However, given the technical limitations of the current approach particularly when combining rabies tracing with functional recordings it is not feasible to obtain such precise cell counts. Instead, we focused on connection ratios derived from targeted electrophysiological recordings, which offer a reliable and practical means of estimating connectivity within these defined circuits.

      Thirdly, regarding the potential influence of rabies-labeled neurons beyond the immediate recording site: while we acknowledge that rabies tracing labels a broad set of upstream neurons, our analysis was confined to a well-defined and localized area. The analogy we find helpful here is that of a spotlight - our recordings were restricted to the illuminated region directly under the beam, where the projection pattern is fixed and interpretable, regardless of what lies outside that area. Although we cannot fully account for all possible upstream connections, our methodology was designed to minimize variability and maintain consistency in the region of interest, which we believe supports the robustness of our conclusions in the ex vivo slice recording experiment.

      We hope this additional explanation addresses the reviewer’s concerns and helps clarify the rationale of our experimental strategy.

      The results in figure 3 are not well controlled. The authors show contrasting effects of optogenetic stimulation of D1-MSNs and D2-MSNs in the DMS and DLS, results which are largely consistent with the canon of basal ganglia function. However, when stimulating cortical inputs, stimulating the inputs from D1-MSNs gives the expected results (increased locomotion) while stimulating putative inputs to D2-MSNs had no effect. This is not the same as showing a decrease in locomotion - showing no effect here is not possible to interpret.

      We apologize for any confusion and appreciate the opportunity to clarify this point. Our electrophysiological recordings demonstrated that D1-projecting cortical neurons preferentially innervate D1-SPNs in the striatum, whereas D2-projecting cortical neurons provide input to both D1- and D2-SPNs, without a clear preference. These synaptic connectivity patterns are further supported by our behavioral experiments: optogenetic stimulation of D1-projecting neurons in cortical areas such as MCC and M1 led to behavioral effects consistent with direct D1-SPN activation. In contrast, stimulation of D2-projecting cortical neurons produced behavioral outcomes that appeared to reflect a mixture of both D1- and D2-SPN activation.

      We acknowledge that interpreting negative behavioral findings poses inherent challenges, as it is difficult to distinguish between a true lack of effect and insufficient experimental manipulation. To mitigate this, we ensured that all animals included in the analysis exhibited appropriate viral expression and correctly placed optic fibers in the targeted regions. These controls help to confirm that the observed behavioral effects - or lack thereof - are indeed due to the activation of the intended neuronal populations rather than technical artifacts such as weak expression or fiber misplacement.

      As shown in Author response image 1 below, our verification of virus expression and fiber positioning confirms effective targeting in MCC and M1 of A2A-Cre mice. Therefore, we interpret the negative behavioral outcomes as meaningful consequences of specific neural circuit activation.

      Author response image 1.

      Confocal image from A2A-Cre mouse showing targeted optogenetic stimulation of D2-projecting cortical neurons in MCC or M1. ChR2-mCherry expression highlights D2-projecting neurons, selectively labeled via rabies-mediated tracing. Optic fiber placement is confirmed above the cortical region of interest. Image illustrates robust expression and anatomical specificity necessary for pathway-selective stimulation in behavioral assays.

      In light of their circuit model, the result showing that inputs to D2-MSNs drive ICSS is confusing. How can the authors account for the fact that these cells are not locomotor-activating, stimulation of their putative downstream cells (D2-MSNs) does not drive ICSS, yet the cortical inputs drive ICSS? Is the idea that these inputs somehow also drive D1s? If this is the case, how do D2s get activated, if all of the cortical inputs tested net activate D1s and not D2s? Same with the results in figure 4 - the inputs and putative downstream cells do not have the same effects. Given the potential caveats of differences in viral efficiency, spatial location of injections, and cellular toxicity, I cannot interpret these experiments.

      We apologize for any confusion in our previous explanation. In our behavioral experiments, the primary objective was to determine whether activation of D1- or D2-projecting cortical neurons would produce behavioral outcomes distinct from those observed with pure D1 or D2 activation.

      Our findings show that stimulation of D1-projecting cortical neurons produced behavioral effects closely resembling those of selective D1 activation in both open field and ICSS tests. This is consistent with our slice recording data, which revealed that D1-projecting cortical neurons exhibit a higher connection probability with D1-SPNs than with D2-SPNs.

      In contrast, interpreting the effects of D2-projecting cortical neuron stimulation is inherently more nuanced. In the open field test, activation of these neurons did not significantly modulate local motion. This could reflect a balanced influence of D1 activation, which facilitates movement, and D2 activation, which suppresses it - resulting in a net neutral behavioral outcome. In the ICSS test, the absence of a strong reinforcement effect typically associated with D2 activation, combined with partial reinforcement likely due to concurrent D1 activation, suggests that stimulation of D2-projecting neurons produces a mixed behavioral signal. This outcome supports the interpretation that these neurons synapse onto both D1- and D2-SPNs, leading to a blended behavioral response that differs from selective D1 or D2 activation alone.

      Together, these two behavioral assays offer complementary perspectives, providing a more complete view of how projection-specific cortical inputs influence striatal output and behavior.

      In Figure 4 of the current manuscript (as cited below), we show that optogenetic activation of MCC neurons projecting to D1-SPNs facilitates sequence lever pressing, whereas activation of MCC neurons projecting to D2-SPNs does not induce significant behavioral changes. Conversely, activation of M1 neurons projecting to either D1- or D2-SPNs enhances lever pressing sequences. These observations align with our prior findings (Geddes et al., 2018; Jin et al., 2014), where we demonstrated that in the striatum, D1-SPN activation facilitates ongoing lever pressing, whereas D2-SPN activation is more involved in suppressing ongoing actions and promoting transitions between sub-sequences, shown in Fig. 4 from (Geddes et al., 2018; Jin et al., 2014) and Fig. 5K from (Jin et al., 2014) . Taken together, the facilitation of lever pressing by D1-projecting MCC and M1 neurons is consistent with their preferential connectivity to D1-SPNs and their established behavioral role.

      What is particularly intriguing, though admittedly more complex, is the behavioral divergence observed upon activation of D2-SPN-projecting cortical neurons. Activation of D2-projecting MCC neurons does not alter lever pressing, possibly reflecting a counterbalancing effect from concurrent D1- and D2-SPN activation. In contrast, stimulation of D2-projecting M1 neurons facilitates lever pressing, albeit less robustly than their D1-projecting counterparts. This discrepancy may reflect regional differences in striatal targets, DMS for MCC versus DLS for M1, as also supported by our open field test results. Furthermore, our recent findings (Zhang et al., 2025) show that synaptic strength from Cg to D2-SPNs is stronger than to D1-SPNs, whereas the M1 pathway exhibits the opposite pattern. These data suggest that beyond projection ratios, synaptic strength also shapes cortico-striatal functional output. Thus, stronger D2-SPN synapses in the DMS may offset D1-SPN activation during MCC-D2 stimulation, dampening lever pressing increase. Conversely, weaker D2 synapses in the DLS may permit M1-D2 projections to facilitate behavior more readily.

      In summary, the behavioral outcomes of our optogenetic manipulations support the proposed asymmetric cortico-striatal connectivity model. While the effects of D2-projecting neurons are not uniform, they reflect varying balances of D1 and D2-SPN influence, which further underscores the asymmetrical connections of cortical inputs to the striatum.

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      (1) What are the sample sizes for Fig S2? Some trends that are listed as nonsignificant look like they may just be underpowered. Related to this point, S2C indicates that PPR is statistically similar in all conditions. The traces shown in Figure 2 suggest that PPR is quite different in "Input D1"- vs "Input D2" projections. If there is indeed no difference, the exemplar traces should be replaced with more representative ones to avoid confusion. 

      Thank you for your suggestion. The sample size reported in Figure S2 corresponds to the neurons identified as connected in Figure 2. The representative traces shown in Figure 2 were selected based on their close alignment with the amplitude statistics and are intended to reflect typical responses. Given this, it is appropriate to retain the current examples as they accurately illustrate the underlying data.

      (2) Previous studies have described that SPN-SPN collateral inhibition is also asymmetric, with D2->D1 SPN connectivity stronger than the other direction. While cortical inputs to D2-SPNs may also strongly innervate D1-SPNs, it would be helpful to speculate on how collateral inhibition may further shape the biases (or lack thereof) reported here. 

      This would indeed be an interesting topic to explore. SPN-SPN mutual inhibition and/or interneuron inhibition may also play a role in the functional organization and output of the striatum. In the present study, we focused on the primary layer of cortico-striatal connectivity to examine how cortical neurons selectively connect to the striatal direct and indirect pathways, as these pathways have been shown to have distinct yet cooperative functions. To achieve this, we applied a GABAA receptor inhibitor to isolate only excitatory synaptic currents in SPNs, yielding the relevant results.

      To investigate additional circuit organization involving SPN-SPN mutual inhibition, the current available technique would involve single-cell initiated rabies tracing. This approach would help identify the starter SPN and the upstream SPNs that provide input to the starter cell, thereby offering a clearer understanding of the local circuit.

      (3) In Fig 3N-S there are no stats confirming that optogenetic stimulation does indeed increase lever pressing in each group (though it obviously looks like it does). It would be helpful to add statistics for this comparison, in addition to the between-group comparisons that are shown. 

      We thank the reviewer for this thoughtful suggestion. To assess whether optogenetic stimulation increases lever pressing in each group shown in Figures 3O, 3P, 3R, and 3S, we employed a permutation test (10,000 permutations). This non-parametric statistical method does not rely on assumptions about the underlying data distribution and is particularly appropriate for our analysis given the relatively small sample sizes.

      Additionally, in response to Reviewer 3’s concern regarding the potential cytotoxicity of rabies virus affecting behavioral outcomes during in vivo optogenetic stimulation experiments, we focused our analysis on Days 1 through 7 of the ICSS test. This time window remains within 10 days post-rabies infection, a period during which previous studies have reported minimal cytopathic effects (Osakada et al., 2011).

      Accordingly, we have updated Figure 3N-S and revised the associated statistical analyses in the figure legend as follows:

      (O-P) D1-SPN (red) but not D2-SPN stimulation (black) drives ICSS behavior in both the DMS (O: D1, n = 6, permutation test, slope = 1.5060, P = 0.0378; D2, n = 5, permutation test, slope = -0.2214, P = 0.1021; one-tailed Mann Whitney test, Day 7 D1 vs. D2, P = 0.0130) and the DLS (P: D1, n = 6, permutation test, slope = 28.1429, P = 0.0082; D2, n = 5, permutation test, slope = -0.3429, P = 0.0463; one-tailed Mann Whitney test, Day 7 D1 vs. D2, P = 0.0390). *, P < 0.05. (Q) Timeline of helper virus injections, rabies-ChR2 injections and optogenetic stimulation for ICSS behavior. (R-S) Optogenetic stimulation of the cortical neurons projecting to either D1- or D2-SPNs induces ICSS behavior in both the MCC (R: MCC-D1, n = 5, permutation test, Day1-Day7, slope = 2.5857, P = 0.0034; MCC-D2, n = 5, Day2-Day7, permutation test, slope = 1.4229, P = 0.0344; no significant effect on Day7, MCC-D1 vs. MCC-D2,  two-tailed Mann Whitney test, P = 0.9999) and the M1 (S: M1-D1, n = 5, permutation test, Day1-Day7, slope = 1.8214, P = 0.0259; M1-D2, n = 5, Day1-Day7, permutation test, slope = 1.8214, P = 0.0025; no significant effect on Day7, M1-D1 vs. M1-D2, two-tailed Mann Whitney test, P = 0.3810). n.s., not statistically significant.

      We believe this updated analysis and additional context further strengthen the validity of our conclusions regarding the reinforcement effects.

      (4) Line 206: mice were trained for "a few more days" is not a very rigorous description. It would be helpful to state the range of additional days of training. 

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. In accordance with the Methods section, we have now specified the number of days, which is 4 days, in the main text (line 207).

      (5) In Fig 4D,H, the statistical comparison is relative modulation (% change) by stimulation of D1- vs D2- projecting inputs. Please show statistics comparing the effect of stimulation on lever presses for each individual condition. For example, is the effect of MCC-D2 stimulation in panel D negative or not significant? 

      Thank you for your suggestion. Below are the statistical results, which we have also incorporated into the figure legend for clarity. To assess the net effects of each manipulation, we compared the observed percentage changes with a theoretical value of zero.

      In Figure 4D, optogenetic stimulation of D1-projecting MCC neurons significantly increased the pressing rate (MCC-D1, n = 8, one-sample two-tailed t-test, t = 2.814, P = 0.0131), whereas stimulation of D2-projecting MCC neurons did not produce a significant effect (MCC-D2, n = 7, one-sample two-tailed t-test, t = 0.8481, P = 0.4117).

      In contrast, Figure 4H shows that optogenetic stimulation of both D1- and D2-projecting M1 neurons significantly increased the sequence press rate (M1-D1, n = 6, one-sample two-tailed Wilcoxon signed-rank test, P = 0.0046; M1-D2, n = 7, one-sample two-tailed Wilcoxon signed-rank test, P = 0.0479).

      These analyses help clarify the distinct behavioral effects of manipulating different corticostriatal projections.

      (6) Are data in Fig 1G-H from a D1- or A2a- cre mouse? 

      The data in Fig 1G-H are from a D1-Cre mouse.

      (7) In Fig S3 it looks like there may actually be an effect of 20Hz simulation of D2-SPNs. Though it probably doesn't affect the interpretation. 

      As indicated by the statistics, there is a slight, but not statistically significant, decrease in local motion when 20 Hz stimulation is delivered to the motor cortex with ChR2 expression in D2-SPNs in the striatum.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      The rabies tracing is referred to on several occasions as "new" but the reference papers are from 2011, 2013, and 2018. It is unclear what is new about the system used in the paper and what new feature is relevant to the experiments that were performed. Either clarify or remove "new" terminology. 

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We have revised the relevant text accordingly at line 20 in the Abstract, line 31 in the In Brief, line 69 in the Introduction, line 83 in the Results, and line 226 in the Discussion to improve clarity and accuracy.

      In Figure 2 D and G, D1 eGFP (+) and D2 eGFP(-) are plotted separately. These are the same cell type; therefore it may work best to combine that data. This could also be done for 'input to D2- Record D2' in panel D as well as 'input D1-Record D2' and 'input D2-Record D1' in panel G. Combining the information in panel D and G and comparing all 4 conditions to each other would give a better understanding of the comparison of functional connectivity between cortical neurons and D1 and D2 SPNs. 

      We thank the reviewer for the thoughtful suggestion. While presenting single bars for each condition (e.g., ‘input D1 - record D1’) might improve visual simplicity, it would obscure an important aspect of our experimental design. Specifically, we aimed to highlight that the comparisons between D1- and D2-projecting neurons to D1 and D2 SPNs were counterbalanced within the same animals - not just across different groups. By showing both D1-eGFP(+) and D2-eGFP(-), or vice versa, within each group and at similar proportions, we provide a more complete picture of the internal control built into our design. This format helps ensure the audience that our conclusions are not biased by group-level differences, but are supported by within-subject comparisons. Therefore, that the current presentation better could serve to communicate the rigor and balance of our experimental approach.

      The findings in Figure 2 are stated as D1 projecting excitatory inputs have a higher probability of targeting D1 SPNs while D2 projecting excitatory inputs target both D1 SPNs and D2 SPNs. It may be more clear to say that some cortical neurons project specifically to D1 SPNs while other cortical neurons project to both D1 and D2 SPNs equally. A better summary diagram could also help with clarity. 

      Thank you for bringing this up. The data we present reflect the connection probabilities of D1- or D2-projecting cortical neurons to D1 or D2 SPNs. One possible interpretation is like the reviewer said that a subset of cortical neurons preferentially target D1 SPNs, while others exhibit more balanced projections to both D1 and D2 SPNs. However, we cannot rule out alternative explanations - for example, that some D2-projecting neurons preferentially target D2 SPNs, or that the observed differences arise from the overall proportions of D1- and D2-projecting cortical neurons connecting to each striatal subtype.

      There are multiple possible patterns of connectivity that could give rise to the observed differences in connection ratios. Based on our current data, we can confidently conclude the existence of asymmetric cortico-striatal projections to the direct and indirect pathways, but the precise nature of this asymmetry will require further investigation.

      Figure 4 introduces the FR8 task, but there are similar takeaways to the findings from Figure 3. Is there another justification for the FR8 task or interesting way of interpreting that data that could add richness to the manuscript?

      The FR8 task is a self-initiated operant sequence task that relies on motor learning mechanisms, whereas the open field test solely assesses spontaneous locomotion. Furthermore, the sequence task enables us to dissect the functional role of specific neuronal populations in the initiation, maintenance, and termination of sequential movements through closed-loop optogenetic manipulations integrated into the task design. These methodological advantages underscore the rationale for including Figure 4 in the manuscript, as it highlights the unique insights afforded by this experimental paradigm.

      I am somewhat surprised to see that D1-SPN stimulation in DLS gave the results in Figure 3 F and P, as mentioned in the public review. These contrast with some previous results (Cui et al, J Neurosci, 2021). Any explanation? Would be useful to speculate or compare parameters as this could have important implications for DLS function.

      Thank you for raising this point. While Cui’s study has generated some debate, several independent investigations have consistently demonstrated that stimulation of D1-SPNs in the dorsolateral striatum (DLS) facilitates local motion and lever-press behaviors (Dong et al., 2025; Geddes et al., 2018; Kravitz et al., 2010). These findings support the functional role of D1-SPNs in promoting movement and motivated actions.

      The differences in behavioral outcomes observed between our study and that of Cui et al. may stem from several methodological factors, particularly related to anatomical targeting and optical stimulation parameters.

      Specifically, our experiments targeted the DMS at AP +0.5 mm, ML ±1.5 mm, DV –2.2 mm, and the DLS at AP +0.5 mm, ML ±2.5 mm, DV –2.2 mm. In contrast, Cui’s study targeted the DMS at AP +0.9 mm, ML ±1.4 mm, DV –3.0 mm, and the DLS at AP +0.7 mm, ML ±2.3 mm, DV –3.0 mm. These differences indicate that their targeting was slightly more rostral and more ventral than ours, which could have led to stimulation of distinct neuronal populations within the striatum, potentially accounting for variations in behavioral effects observed during optogenetic activation.

      In addition, the optical fibers used in the two studies differed markedly. We employed optical fibers with a 200 µm core diameter and a numerical aperture (NA) of 0.37. Cui’s study used fibers with a larger core diameter (250 µm) and a higher NA (0.66), which would produce a broader spread and deeper penetration of light. This increased photostimulation volume may have recruited a more extensive network of neurons, possibly including off-target circuits, thus influencing the behavioral outcomes in a manner not seen in our more spatially constrained stimulation paradigm.

      Taken together, these methodological differences, both in anatomical targeting and optical stimulation parameters, likely contribute to the discrepancies in behavioral results observed between the two studies. Our findings, consistent with other independent reports, support the role of D1-SPNs in facilitating movement and reinforcement behaviors under more controlled and localized stimulation conditions.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Minor: 

      The authors repeatedly state that they are using a new rabies virus system, but the system has been in widespread use for 16 years, including in the exact circuits the authors are studying, for over a decade. I would not consider this new. 

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We have revised the relevant text accordingly at line 20 in the Abstract, line 31 in the In Brief, line 69 in the Introduction, line 83 in the Results, and line 226 in the Discussion to improve clarity and accuracy.

      Figure 2G, how many mice were used for recordings?

      In Fig. 2G, we used 8 mice in the D1-projecting to D2 EGFP(+) group, 7 mice in the D1-projecting to D1 EGFP(-) group, 8 mice in the D2-projecting to D1 EGFP(+) group, and 10 mice in the D2-projecting to D2 EGFP(-) group.

      The amplitude of inputs was not reported in figure 2. This is important, as the strength of the connection matters. This is reported in Figure S2, but how exactly this relates to the presence or absence of connections should be made clearer.

      The amplitude data presented in Figure S2 summarize all recorded currents from confirmed connections, as detailed in the Methods section. A connection is defined by the presence of a detectable and reliable postsynaptic current with an onset latency of less than 10 ms following laser stimulation.

      Reference in the reply-to-review comments:

      Aoki, S., Smith, J.B., Li, H., Yen, X.Y., Igarashi, M., Coulon, P., Wickens, J.R., Ruigrok, T.J.H., and Jin, X. (2019). An open cortico-basal ganglia loop allows limbic control over motor output via the nigrothalamic pathway. Elife 8, e49995.

      Chatterjee, S., Sullivan, H.A., MacLennan, B.J., Xu, R., Hou, Y.Y., Lavin, T.K., Lea, N.E., Michalski, J.E., Babcock, K.R., Dietrich, S., et al. (2018). Nontoxic, double-deletion-mutant rabies viral vectors for retrograde targeting of projection neurons. Nat Neurosci 21, 638-646.

      Cruikshank, S.J., Urabe, H., Nurmikko, A.V., and Connors, B.W. (2010). Pathway-Specific Feedforward Circuits between Thalamus and Neocortex Revealed by Selective Optical Stimulation of Axons. Neuron 65, 230-245.

      Dong, J., Wang, L.P., Sullivan, B.T., Sun, L.X., Smith, V.M.M., Chang, L.S., Ding, J.H., Le, W.D., Gerfen, C.R., and Cai, H.B. (2025). Molecularly distinct striatonigral neuron subtypes differentially regulate locomotion. Nat Commun 16, 2710.

      Geddes, C.E., Li, H., and Jin, X. (2018). Optogenetic Editing Reveals the Hierarchical Organization of Learned Action Sequences. Cell 174, 32-43.

      Jin, L., Sullivan, H.A., Zhu, M., Lavin, T.K., Matsuyama, M., Fu, X., Lea, N.E., Xu, R., Hou, Y.Y., Rutigliani, L., et al. (2024). Long-term labeling and imaging of synaptically connected neuronal networks in vivo using double-deletion-mutant rabies viruses. Nat Neurosci 27, 373-383.

      Jin, X., Tecuapetla, F., and Costa, R.M. (2014). Basal ganglia subcircuits distinctively encode the parsing and concatenation of action sequences. Nat Neurosci 17, 423-430.

      Klug, J.R., Engelhardt, M.D., Cadman, C.N., Li, H., Smith, J.B., Ayala, S., Williams, E.W., Hoffman, H., and Jin, X. (2018). Differential inputs to striatal cholinergic and parvalbumin interneurons imply functional distinctions. Elife 7, e35657.

      Kravitz, A.V., Freeze, B.S., Parker, P.R.L., Kay, K., Thwin, M.T., Deisseroth, K., and Kreitzer, A.C. (2010). Regulation of parkinsonian motor behaviours by optogenetic control of basal ganglia circuitry. Nature 466, 622-626.

      Osakada, F., Mori, T., Cetin, A.H., Marshel, J.H., Virgen, B., and Callaway, E.M. (2011). New Rabies Virus Variants for Monitoring and Manipulating Activity and Gene Expression in Defined Neural Circuits. Neuron 71, 617-631.

      Smith, J.B., Klug, J.R., Ross, D.L., Howard, C.D., Hollon, N.G., Ko, V.I., Hoffman, H., Callaway, E.M., Gerfen, C.R., and Jin, X. (2016). Genetic-Based Dissection Unveils the Inputs and Outputs of Striatal Patch and Matrix Compartments. Neuron 91, 1069-1084.

      Wall, N.R., De La Parra, M., Callaway, E.M., and Kreitzer, A.C. (2013). Differential Innervation of Direct- and Indirect-Pathway Striatal Projection Neurons. Neuron 79, 347-360.

      Wickersham, I.R., Lyon, D.C., Barnard, R.J.O., Mori, T., Finke, S., Conzelmann, K.K., Young, J.A.T., and Callaway, E.M. (2007). Monosynaptic restriction of transsynaptic tracing from single, genetically targeted neurons. Neuron 53, 639-647.

      Zhang, B.B., Geddes, C.E., and Jin, X. (2025) Complementary corticostriatal circuits orchestrate action repetition and switching. Sci Adv, in press.

      Zhu, Z.G., Gong, R., Rodriguez, V., Quach, K.T., Chen, X.Y., and Sternson, S.M. (2025). Hedonic eating is controlled by dopamine neurons that oppose GLP-1R satiety. Science 387, eadt0773.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Response to eLife Assessment:

      We sincerely appreciate your recognition of the novelty and potential significance of our study, and we are grateful for your constructive and valuable comments.

      With regard to your concern that cast immobilization (CI) may itself act as a stressor—potentially influencing skeletal muscle, brown adipose tissue (BAT), and locomotor energy expenditure—we fully recognize this as a highly important issue. In our study, we sought to interpret the findings in light of oxygen consumption and activity data; however, it is inherently difficult to disentangle systemic stress responses and the increased energetic costs associated with CI. We have therefore revised the manuscript to explicitly acknowledge this point as a limitation, and to identify it as a subject for future investigation.

      We also greatly value your suggestion concerning the potential involvement of branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs) derived from adipose tissue in BAT thermogenesis. While our present work primarily focused on muscle-derived amino acids, previous studies have reported that impaired BCAA catabolism in white adipose tissue (WAT) is associated with elevated circulating BCAA levels and metabolic dysfunction [1]. Thus, the possibility that adipose tissue contributes to the BCAA pool used by BAT cannot be disregard. We fully agree that directly addressing this possibility would be highly valuable, and in future work we plan to locally administer isotope-labeled BCAAs into skeletal muscle or adipose tissue and analyze their contribution to circulating BCAA levels and BAT utilization. Although such experiments could not be performed within the timeframe of this resubmission, we have explicitly stated this limitation in the revised manuscript.

      In summary, we have revised the text to acknowledge the limitations highlighted in your comments and to better clarify future research directions. We believe these revisions more accurately position our current study within the broader context. Once again, we are deeply grateful for your recognition of the originality of our work and for your constructive guidance in refining it.

      Response to Reviewers:

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewers’ thoughtful evaluations and constructive comments, and we are grateful for their recognition of the novelty and significance of our study.

      Response to Reviewer 1:

      We thank the reviewer for the detailed and thoughtful comments regarding the potential systemic effects of CI, including stress responses, energy balance, and tissue wasting. These factors are indeed critical when interpreting our findings, and we agree that CI is not merely a passive loss-of-function model but also introduces stress-related influences.

      The principal aim of our study was to investigate the “physiological compensatory mechanisms” that are triggered by loss of muscle function induced by CI. Although CI inevitably elicits systemic metabolic alterations—including stress-related responses—our study is, to our knowledge, the first to demonstrate that a compensatory thermogenic pathway, mediated by the supply of amino acids from skeletal muscle to BAT, is activated under such conditions. We regard this as the central novelty of our work, and it is consistent with the reviewer’s observation that CI results in a “gain of function.”

      Our intention is not to exclude stress as a contributing factor. Rather, we emphasize that under physiological stress conditions requiring BAT thermogenesis—such as reduced energy stores or decreased heat production from skeletal muscle—amino acid supply from muscle to BAT is induced. Importantly, this mechanism is not unique to CI, as we have confirmed similar metabolic crosstalk under acute cold exposure.

      At the same time, we acknowledge that our current data do not allow us to conclude that “stress is not a primary driver” of BAT thermogenesis induced by CI. Chronic stress induced by CI appeared to be limited in our study (Fig. 2_figure supplement 2), but we cannot fully exclude stress-related effects. Accordingly, we now describe the potential triggers of BAT thermogenesis in the manuscript as either decreased body temperature due to muscle functional loss or stress, explicitly noting in the Discussion that stress and reductions in energy reserves may both contribute, as the reviewer suggested. We also modified the original overstatement that “suppression of muscle thermogenesis induces hypothermia,” and now limit the description to the observed phenomenon that “CI-induced restriction of muscle activity leads to reduced cold tolerance,” while recognizing that multiple factors—including stress, substrate availability, and BAT functional capacity—may underlie this effect.

      We further appreciate the reviewer’s comment regarding the energetic burden imposed by CI. The cast weighed less than 2 g (5–10% of body weight), and thus increased locomotor costs cannot be excluded. However, locomotor activity during the dark phase was reduced by approximately 50%, making the net energetic effect difficult to quantify. In the manuscript, we now present oxygen consumption data and restrict our description to “an increase in oxygen consumption per body weight.” Moreover, as food intake remained almost unchanged compared with controls, the animals appear to have compensated for additional energetic demands, supporting the interpretation that the observed effects were not solely attributable to starvation.

      We also find the reviewer’s suggestion—that CI induces BAT overactivation but impairs its functional capacity—extremely important. Indeed, although CI increased thermogenic gene expression in BAT, body temperature maintenance was impaired. We interpret this reduction in thermoregulation as reflecting decreased heat production from skeletal muscle; however, as the reviewer noted, under prolonged CI, depletion of energy stores could further prevent BAT from fully exerting its thermogenic function.

      We have clarified in the revised Discussion that BAT activation under CI is transient, and that long-term outcomes may be influenced by contributions from other thermogenic organs, and that we recognize the impact of energy depletion as an important issue to be addressed in future studies. We also agree that detailed analyses of metabolic changes and BCAA dynamics following prolonged CI will be an important next step.

      Regarding the reviewer’s concern about potential anesthesia effects on acute cold exposure experiments, we confirmed that body temperature had returned to baseline one hour before testing, and that mice displayed spontaneous feeding and grooming behaviors, which suggested adequate recovery. Moreover, the differences observed compared with sham-anesthetized controls support our interpretation that the results reflect CI-specific effects. Nonetheless, we acknowledge this potential confounding factor as an additional limitation.

      Response to Reviewer 2:

      We thank the reviewer for the constructive comments and clear summary of our findings. We fully agree that the impact of immobilization on skeletal muscle and BAT function under cold exposure represents a key future direction. In the present study, we performed acute cold exposure following short-term immobilization and assessed UCP1 expression and metabolic changes in BAT. However, we acknowledge that we did not fully examine coordinated functional adaptations between skeletal muscle and BAT under cold stress. In particular, how skeletal muscle–derived amino acid supply and IL-6–dependent mechanisms operate during cold exposure remains unresolved. We have therefore noted this explicitly as a limitation and highlighted it as a focus for future work. Going forward, we plan to investigate muscle–BAT metabolic crosstalk and IL-6 signaling in detail under cold conditions to clarify whether the observed responses are specific to CI or represent more general physiological adaptations.

      (1) Herman MA, She P, Peroni OD, Lynch CJ, Kahn BB. Adipose tissue branched chain amino acid (BCAA) metabolism modulates circulating BCAA levels. J Biol Chem. 2010;285(15):11348-56. doi:10.1074/jbc.M109.075184.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Heat production mechanisms are flexible, depending on a wide variety of genetic, dietary, and environmental factors. The physiology associated with each mechanism is important to understand since loss of flexibility is associated with metabolic decline and disease. The phenomenon of compensatory heat production has been described in some detail in publications and reviews, notably by modifying BAT-dependent thermogenesis (for example by deleting UCP1 or impairing lipolysis, cited in this paper). These authors chose to eliminate exercise as an alternative means of maintaining body temperature. To do this, they cast either one or both mouse hindlimbs. This paper is set up as an evaluation of a loss of function of muscle on the functionality of BAT.

      Strengths:

      The study is supported by a variety of modern techniques and procedures.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors show that cast immobilization (CI) does not work as a (passive) loss of function, instead, this procedure produces a dramatic gain of function, putting the animal under considerable stress, inducing b-adrenergic effectors, increased oxygen consumption, and IL6 expression in a variety of tissues, together with commensurate cachectic effects on muscle and fat. The BAT is put under considerable stress, super-induced but relatively poor functioning. Thus within hours and days of CI, there is massive muscle loss (leading to high circulating BCAAs), and loss of lipid reserves in adipose and liver. The lipid cycle that maintains BAT thermogenesis is depleted and the mouse is unable to maintain body temperature.

      I cannot agree with these statements in the Discussion:  

      "We have here shown that cast immobilization suppressed skeletal muscle thermogenesis, resulting in failure to maintain core body temperature in a cold environment."

      This result could also be attributed to high stress and decreased calorie reserves. Note also: CI suppresses 50% of locomotor activity, but the actual work done by the mouse carrying bilateral casts is not taken into account.

      We appreciate the reviewer's suggestion. We thank you for raising this issue. As the reviewers suggest, we also consider that cold intolerance resulting from cast immobilization may be attributed to high stress levels, decreased calorie reserves, or reduced systemic locomotor activity. Indeed, reductions in the weight of visceral adipose tissue weight and increases in lipid utilization were observed in the early phase of cast immobilization (Fig.2G and 2F). This suggests that the depletion of calorie reserves induced by stress may affect cold intolerance in cast immobilized mice (Fig.1A-1B). On the other hand, the experiment shown in Fig.1C involved acute cold exposure of mice 2 h after cast immobilization. This result suggests that, even before the depletion of energy stores by immobilization of skeletal muscle, cast immobilization may cause cold intolerance in mice. In addition, as the reviewer suggests, cast immobilization may result in BAT thermogenesis and cachectic effects on muscle and fat. However, circulating corticosterone concentrations and hypothalamic CRH gene expression are not significantly altered after cast immobilization (Figure 2_figure supplement 2D-F). This raises questions about the contribution of stress to the changes in the systemic energy metabolism in this model. As such, we responded to the reviewers’ comments by revising this statement at the beginning of the ‘Discussion’ section and adding a discussion on pages 16, in addition to the existing discussion on pages 17–18.

      Furthermore, to respond as best we could to the reviewer's comments, we performed additional experiments using the restraint stress model (Figure 7). We found that short-term restraint stress may recruit substrate supply from skeletal muscle for BAT thermogenesis via Il6 gene expression. Based on these data, we speculate that the interaction between BAT and skeletal muscle amino acid metabolism may operate under various physiological stress conditions, including infection and exercise, as well as skeletal muscle immobilization, stress, and cold exposure. This interaction may play a significant role in regulating body temperature and energy metabolism. We are currently investigating the effects of sympathetic activation on skeletal muscle amino acid metabolism and systemic thermoregulation via IL-6 secretion from skeletal muscle using a new model. These data will be reported in a subsequent report.

      "Thermoregulatory system in endotherms cannot be explained by thermogenesis based on muscle contraction alone, with nonshivering thermogenesis being required as a component of the ability to tolerate cold temperatures in the long term."

      This statement is correct, and it clearly showcases how difficult it is to interpret results using this CI strategy. The question to the author is- which components of muscle thermogenesis are actually inhibited by CI, and what is the relative heat contribution?

      We appreciate raising this important issue. This study required the measurements of skeletal muscle temperature and electromyography in mice with cast immobilization, but we were unable to perform these measurements. We have therefore described the reviewers suggest on page 18 as limitations of this study.

      In our additional experiments, we found that several genes that are usually activated in skeletal muscle during cold exposure are repressed in mice with cast immobilization (Figure 1_figure supplement 1_G-1K). Skeletal muscle is an important thermogenic organ. Although the role of the sarcolipin gene in non-shivering thermogenesis is well understood, the primary regulator of thermogenesis in metabolism and shivering remains unclear. In Future, we would like to use models in which key signals for energy metabolism are inhibited, such as muscle-specific PGC-1α-deficient mice and muscle-specific AMPK-deficient mice, to clarify important factors in skeletal muscle heat thermogenesis. We expect this approach to enable us to analyze the relative thermal contributions of each component of the heat production process in skeletal muscle, which has proven difficult in immobilized muscle models.

      This conclusion is overinterpreted:

      "In conclusion, we have shown that cast immobilization induced thermogenesis in BAT that was dependent on the utilization of free amino acids derived from skeletal muscle, and that muscle-derived IL-6 stimulated BCAA metabolism in skeletal muscle. Our findings may provide new insights into the significance of skeletal muscle as a large reservoir of amino acids in the regulation of body temperature".

      In terms of the production of the article - the data shown in the heat maps has oddly obscure log10 dimensions. The changes are minimal, approx. 1.5x increase/decrease and therefore significance would be key to reporting these data. Fig.3C heatmap is not suitable. What are the 6 lanes to each condition? Overall, this has little/no information.

      Rather than cherry-picking for a few genes, the results could be made more rigorous using RNA-seq profiling of BAT and muscle tissues.

      We agree that this is an important point. Indeed, our model of skeletal muscle immobilization reveals only modest changes in metabolomics and gene expression analysis. We consider this to be a weakness of the study. However, the interactive thermogenic system that we discovered between skeletal muscle and BAT may also function under other conditions, such as acute stress and cold exposure. We should investigate this further in future models involving such dramatic metabolic changes. In fact, it has been shown that the levels of several metabolites are significantly altered in BAT after acute cold exposure.[1] Therefore, we have corrected the conclusion of this section, as stated on page 18, and added it. We also performed an enrichment analysis on the metabolomics data in BAT following cast immobilization and included the results in Figure 2_figure Supplement 1A. In addition, we excluded the heatmap from Fig. 3C of the pre-revision manuscript, as advised by the reviewer. Although we excluded the results in Figure 3C, we consider Figure 3_figure supplement_1 to be sufficient for the text.  

      In addition, we agree with the reviewer's remarks on our gene expression analysis. In this study, we were unable to examine RNA-seq profiling of BAT and muscle tissue. Therefore, we have described this as a limitation of the study on page 20. However, we are interested in investigating the effect of IL-6 derived from skeletal muscle on RNA-seq profiling of skeletal muscle and BAT. We will conduct future RNA-seq analyses of BAT and skeletal muscle, using models of skeletal muscle immobilization, acute cold exposure and restraint stress.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors identified a previously unrecognized organ interaction where limb immobilization induces thermogenesis in BAT. They showed that limb immobilization by cast fixation enhances the expression of UCP1 as well as amino acid transporters in BAT, and amino acids are supplied from skeletal muscle to BAT during this process, likely contributing to increased thermogenesis in BAT. Furthermore, the experiments with IL-6 knockout mice and IL-6 administration to these mice suggest that this cytokine is likely involved in the supply of amino acids from skeletal muscle to BAT during limb immobilization.

      Strengths:

      The function of BAT plays a crucial role in the regulation of an individual's energy and body weight. Therefore, identifying new interventions that can control BAT function is not only scientifically significant but also holds substantial promise for medical applications. The authors have thoroughly and comprehensively examined the changes in skeletal muscle and BAT under these conditions, convincingly demonstrating the significance of this organ interaction.

      Weaknesses:

      Through considerable effort, the authors have demonstrated that limb-immobilized mice exhibit changes in thermogenesis and energy metabolism dynamics at their steady state. However, The impact of immobilization on the function of skeletal muscle and BAT during cold exposure has not been thoroughly analyzed.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors show that impairment of hind limb muscle contraction by cast immobilization suppresses skeletal muscle thermogenesis and activates thermogenesis in brown fat. They also propose that free BCAAs derived from skeletal muscle are used for BAT thermogenesis, and identify IL-6 as a potential regulator.

      Strengths:

      The data support the conclusions for the most part.

      Weaknesses: The data provided in this manuscript are largely descriptive. It is therefore difficult to assess the potential significance of the work. Moreover, many of the described effects are modest in magnitude, questioning the overall functional relevance of this pathway. There are no experiments that directly test whether BCAAs derived from adipose tissue are used for thermogenesis, which would require more robust tracing experiments. In addition, the rigor of the work should be improved. It is also recommended to put the current work in the context of the literature.

      We appreciate the reviewer's valuable feedback. As the reviewer pointed out, many of the effects described in this study are modest in magnitude. This reflects a limitation of our study, which used skeletal muscle immobilization as a model. To clarify the overall functional relevance of this pathway, we therefore plan to use alternative models in which BAT thermogenesis and systemic cachectic effect are more strongly induced. We have added this point to the 'Conclusion' section on page 18.

      In addition, previous findings reported that mitochondrial BCAA catabolism in brown adipocytes promotes systemic BCAA clearance, suggesting that BCAAs may be supplied to BAT from other organs during BAT thermogenesis.[5] However, as the reviewer rightly pointed out, the current study did not directly investigate whether BCAAs derived from adipose tissue contribute to thermogenic processes. In light of this, we have revised the manuscript to include a statement in the limitations section on page 20 that addresses this point. 

      Metabolomic analysis of white adipose tissue (WAT) following skeletal muscle immobilization revealed alterations in amino acid concentrations in WAT in response to cast immobilization (Author response image 1A). Notably, levels of BCAAs in WAT remained largely unchanged at 24 hours after cast immobilization, but increased significantly by day 7 (Author response image 1B). At the 24-hour time point, when BAT thermogenesis is known to be activated, WAT weights was found to be reduced (Fig. 2H). Gene expression analysis of amino acid metabolism-related genes in WAT at this time point revealed a modest upregulation of several genes (Author response image 1C). Furthermore, a slight increase in the uptake of [<sup>3</sup>H] leucine into WAT was observed following immobilization (Fig. 3C). Collectively, these findings suggest that BCAAs within WAT may be primarily metabolized locally rather than being mobilized and supplied to BAT. In addition, given the relatively low levels of BCAAs per tissue mass and the limited capacity for BCAA uptake in WAT compared to other tissues, we consider it unlikely that WAT serves as a major reservoir of BCAAs.

      Author response image 1.

      (A) Amino acids in epididymal white adipose tissue (eWAT) of IL-6 KO (–/–) and WT (+/+) mice without (control) or with bilateral cast immobilization for the indicated times. Results are presented as heat maps of the log10 value of the fold change relative to control WT mice and are means of four mice in each group. (B) BCAA concentrations in eWAT of IL-6 KO and WT mice without (control) or with bilateral cast immobilization for 1 or 7 days. (n = 4 per group) (C) RT and real-time PCR analysis of the expression of SLC1A5, SLC7A1, SLC38A2, SLC43A1, BCAT2 and BCKDHA genes in eWAT of mice without (control) or with bilateral cast immobilization for 24 h. (n = 6 per group). All data other than in (A) are means ± SEM. *p < 0.05, **p < 0.01, ***p < 0.001 as determined by Dunnett's test (B) or by the unpaired t test (C).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      • Gypsum is an irrelevant label. Label consistently, with a procedure acronym, like CI or Imm.

      We apologize for any confusion that our notation may have caused. We corrected all labels relating to the skeletal muscle immobilization model in mice to 'Imm'.

      There are many grammatical errors and typos. Search for an example on Fudure1. The sense of some sentences is enough to obscure their meaning.

      We appreciate the reviewer's points. We have checked the article for grammatical and typographical errors, correcting them where necessary.

      • Figures 6E and F need to be re-annotated in the legend and on figures.

      Following the peer reviewer's advice, we have re-annotated the Figure legends of this result.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) It is difficult to understand how the data presented in Supplemental Table 1 were obtained. This appears to be data showing that the skeletal muscle weight of the hind limbs in mice accounts for 40 to 50% of the total skeletal muscle weight. How did the authors calculate the muscle weight? Specifically, how did they measure the weight of muscles that are neither in the hind limbs nor in the forelimbs ("Other")? Was this estimated from whole-body CT or MRI data?

      In the legend, it mentions "the posterior cervical region," but what exactly was measured in the posterior cervical region? The methods for this data should be clearly described.

      We appreciate the reviewers' comments. We apologize for any confusion caused by inadequate explanation of this data. This data was obtained by removing skeletal muscle from the posterior cervical region and measuring the weight of the wet tissue. We have taken care to remove most of the skeletal muscle, but some will remain. However, we do not believe that these errors are significant enough to alter the interpretation of the results. This has now been added to the 'Methods' section on page 21.

      (2) Through considerable effort, the authors have demonstrated that limb-immobilized mice exhibit changes in thermogenesis and energy metabolism dynamics at their steady state. However, it remains unclear why limb-immobilized mice have reduced tolerance to cold exposure. Was there any change in the abundance of energy metabolism-related genes during cold exposure between the immobilized and control mice? For example, if the gene expression of UCP1 and UCP2, which are typically upregulated in brown adipose tissue (BAT) and skeletal muscle during cold exposure, was suppressed in the immobilized mice, it might explain their reduced cold tolerance. Thus, the changes in the response of skeletal muscle and BAT to cold exposure between immobilized and control mice should also be analyzed.

      We thank the reviewer for the constructive comments. We consider the main weakness of this study to be the fact that we were unable to measure the temperature and electromyography (EMG) of the skeletal muscles of the cast-immobilized mice. Following the reviewers' advice, we analyzed the expression levels of several genes related to heat production or energy metabolism (Ucp1, Ucp2, Ucp3, Sln and Ppargc1a) in BAT and skeletal muscle of cast-immobilized mice after acute cold exposure (Figure1_figure supplement 1G-1K). The results showed that the expression of several genes that are usually increased in BAT and skeletal muscle during cold exposure was repressed in cast-immobilized mice. Notably, cast immobilization did not induce the UCP2 and PGC-1α genes at room temperature, and their upregulation during cold exposure was also suppressed in cast-immobilized mice. UCP2 is known to alter its expression in relation to energy metabolism, but it is unclear whether it regulates energy metabolism.[2] Additionally, UCP2 is understood to play a non-role in thermogenesis, and the function of the UCP2 in skeletal muscle remains unclear.[3] On the other hands, PGC-1α is widely recognized as a transcriptional coactivator that regulates various metabolic processes, including thermogenesis.[4] In our study, we found that the amounts of metabolites in the TCA cycle and the expression of the PGC-1α gene were decreased rapidly in immobilized skeletal muscle. This suggests that the metabolic rate is reduced in immobilized skeletal muscle (Figure 1_figure supplement 2A and 2F). In endothermic animals, energy expenditure in skeletal muscle plays a significant role in maintaining body temperature during both activity and rest. Hence, it is assumed that the reduced metabolic rate in skeletal muscle significantly impacts the maintenance of body temperature in cold conditions. Further investigation is required into the function of these genes in skeletal muscle thermogenesis, but we expect that the additional data suggest that the loss of muscle function due to immobilization affects the maintenance of body temperature under cold temperature. These results were discussed further on page 15.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      There are also more specific concerns related to the data supporting the claims.

      (1) The relevance of increasing thermogenesis in BAT after cast immobilization is unclear, as adult humans have very little BAT. Thermogenesis gene and protein expression should be measured in white adipose tissue.

      We would like to thank the reviewers for highlighting this important issue. We agree with the reviewer's comments. We did not observe significant changes in UCP1 expression in the subcutaneous adipose tissue of the inguinal region following skeletal muscle immobilization. We suspect that this is because skeletal muscle immobilization in mice did not exert a strong enough effect to induce browning of white adipose tissue. The ability of immobilizing skeletal muscle to activate thermogenesis in brown or beige adipocytes in adults remains unclear. We have therefore noted this limitation in our study in line 6.

      Additionally, in this study, we aimed to clarify the role of skeletal muscle as an amino acid reservoir under metabolic stress conditions that increase BAT thermogenesis. To this end, we employed models of skeletal muscle immobilization, acute cold exposure, and restraint stress. We also intend to analyze the metabolic interactions between beige adipose tissue and skeletal muscle in more detail using models that induce browning, such as exercise or cold acclimation.

      (2) In Figures 1E-G, there is no significant difference in UCP1 levels relative to the control, but body temperature is lowered from day 2 to day 7. How do the authors explain this?

      This is an important point. We consider the decrease in body temperature of mice following cast immobilization at room temperature to be the result of a reduction in systemic locomotor activity.

      (3) The small induction of PGC1a seen at 10 hours goes away after day 3. Why is this?

      This is an important point. Our investigation showed that the norepinephrine concentration in BAT and blood of cast-immobilized mice tends to increase, peaking at 24 hours of immobilization (Fig. 1H and Figure 2_figure supplement 2D), and then gradually returns to baseline. We speculate that this transient activation of the sympathetic nervous system may affect the expression of PGC1α in BAT. Additionally, although thermogenesis in BAT temporarily increases after skeletal muscle immobilization, studies from other research groups suggest that long-term skeletal muscle immobilization (two weeks) may increase non-shivering thermogenesis in skeletal muscle via high expression SLN.[6] Therefore, we hypothesize that other thermogenic mechanisms besides BAT might be involved during prolonged cast immobilization. We have added a discussion of these topics on page 16.

      (4) The metabolic cage data are marked in multiple places as significant, but the effect size is extremely small. Please describe how significance was calculated (Figure 5 supplement 1B, E, F).

      This is a valid point. This data was statistically analyzed using daily averages, with the results then being compiled. However, the figure was amended because it was not appropriate to use the original to demonstrate significant differences.

      (5) How does IL-6 increase BCAA levels in muscle?

      This is an important point. We are also investigating this issue with great interest. In future, we will use RNA-seq profiling to investigate the mechanism by which IL-6 regulates amino acid metabolism in skeletal muscle. This point was added as a

      limitation of the study on page 19.

      (6) What is the mechanism behind the elevated il6 levels after cast immobilization?

      We appreciate the reviewer's points. Since IL-6 gene expression in skeletal muscle increases in response to acute cold exposure and acute stress, we hypothesize that IL-6 is regulated by β-adrenergic effectors. In our preliminary experiments, stimulation with norepinephrine or with clenbuterol, a β2-adrenergic receptor agonist, suggests an increase in IL-6 gene expression and the intracellular free BCAA concentration in cultured mouse muscle cells (Author response image 2A-2D). Going forward, our plans include conducting further studies using a mouse model in which the sympathetic nervous system is activated by administering LPS intracerebroventricularly, as well as using muscle-specific β2-adrenergic receptor knockout mice.  

      Reference:

      (1) Okamatsu-Ogura, Y., et al. UCP1-dependent and UCP1-independent metabolic changes induced by acute cold exposure in brown adipose tissue of mice. Metabolism. 2020 113:  154396 doi: 10.1016/j.metabol.2020.154396.

      (2) Patrick Schrauwen and Matthijs Hesselink, UCP2 and UCP3 in muscle controlling body metabolism., J Exp Biol. 2002 Aug;205(Pt 15):2275-85. doi: 10.1242/jeb.205.15.2275.

      (3) C Y Zhang, et al., Uncoupling protein-2 negatively regulates insulin secretion and is a major link between obesity, beta cell dysfunction, and type 2 diabetes., Cell. 2001 Jun 15;105(6):745-55. doi: 10.1016/s0092-8674(01)00378-6.

      (4) Christophe Handschin and Bruce M Spiegelman, Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor gamma coactivator 1 coactivators, energy homeostasis, and metabolism., Endocr Rev. 2006 Dec;27(7):728-35. doi: 10.1210/er.2006-0037.

      (5) Yoneshiro, et al., BCAA catabolism in brown fat controls energy homeostasis through SLC25A44. Nature. 2019 572(7771): 614-619 doi: 10.1038/s41586-019-1503-x.

      (6) Shigeto Tomiya, et al., Cast immobilization of hindlimb upregulates sarcolipin expression in atrophied skeletal muscles and increases thermogenesis in C57BL/6J mice., Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol. 2019 Nov1;317(5):R649-R661.doi:10.1152/ajpregu.00118.2019.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      Strengths: 

      Sarpaning et al. provide a thorough characterization of putative Rnt1 cleavage of mRNA in S. cerevisiae. Previous studies have discovered Rnt1 mRNA substrates anecdotally, and this global characterization expands the known collection of putative Rnt1 cleavage sites. The study is comprehensive, with several types of controls to show that Rnt1 is required for several of these cleavages.

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) Formally speaking, the authors do not show a direct role of Rnt1 in mRNA cleavage - no studies were done (e.g., CLIP-seq or similar) to define direct binding sites. Is the mutant Rnt1 expected to trap substrates? Without direct binding studies, the authors rely on genetics and structure predictions for their argument, and it remains possible that a subset of these sites is an indirect consequence of rnt1. This aspect should be addressed in the discussion.

      We have added to this point in the discussion, as requested. We do not, however, agree that CLIP-seq or other methods are needed to address this point, or would even be helpful in the question the reviewer raises. 

      Importantly, we show that recombinant Rnt1 purified from E. coli cleaves the same sites as those mapped in vivo. This does provide direct evidence that Rnt1 directly binds those RNAs. Furthermore, it shows that it can bind these RNAs without the need of other proteins. Our observation that many mRNAs are cleaved at -14 and +16 positions from NGNN stem loops to leave 2-nt 3’ overhangs provides further support that these are the products of an RNase III enzyme, and Rnt1 is the only family member in yeast. Thus, we disagree with the reviewer that our studies do not show direct targeting.

      CLIP-seq experiments would be valuable, but they would address a different point. CLIP-seq measures protein binding to RNA targets, and it is likely that Rnt1 binds some RNAs without cleaving them. In addition, only a transient interaction are needed for cleavage and such transient interactions might not be readily detected by CLIP-seq. Thus, CLIP-seq would reveal the RNAs bound by Rnt1, but would not help identify which ones are cleaved. Catala et al (2004) showed that the catalytically inactive mutant of Rnt1 carries out some functions that are important for the cell cycle. The CLIP-seq studies would be valuable to determine these non-catalytic roles of Rnt1, but we consider those questions beyond the scope of the current study.

      (2) The comprehensive list of putative Rnt1 mRNA cleavage sites is interesting insofar as it expands the repertoire of Rnt1 on mRNAs, but the functional relevance of the majority of these sites remains unknown. Along these lines, the authors should present a more thorough characterization of putative Rnt1 sites recovered from in vitro Rnt1 cleavage.

      We have included new data that confirm that YDR514C cleavage by Rnt1 is relevant to yeast cell physiology. We show that YDR514C overexpression is indeed toxic, as we previously postulated. More importantly, we generated an allele of YDR514C that has synonymous mutations designed to disrupt the stem-loop recognized by Rnt1. We show that at 37 °C, both the wild-type and mutant allele are toxic to rnt1∆ cells, but that in cells that express Rnt1, the wild-type cleavable allele is more toxic than the allele with the mutated stem-loop. This genetic interaction provides strong evidence that cleavage of YDR514C by Rnt1 is relevant to cell physiology. 

      We have also added PARE analysis of poly(A)-enriched and poly(A)-depleted reactions and show that compared to Dcp2, Rnt1 preferentially targets poly(A)+ mRNAs, consistent with it targeting nuclear RNAs. We discuss in more detail that by cleaving nuclear RNA, Rnt1 provides a kinetic proofreading mechanism for mRNA export competence.

      (3) The authors need to corroborate the rRNA 3'-ETS tetraloop mutations with a northern analysis of 3'-ETS processing to confirm an ETS processing defect (which might need to be done in decay mutants to stabilize the liberated ETS fragment). They state that the tetraloop mutation does not yield a growth defect and use this as the basis for concluding that rRNA cleavage is not the major role of Rnt1 in vivo, which is a surprising finding. But it remains possible that tetraloop mutations did not have the expected disruptive effect in vivo; if the ETS is processed normally in the presence of tetraloop mutations, it would undermine this interpretation. This needs to be more carefully examined.

      We have removed the rRNA 3'-ETS tetraloop mutations, because initial northern blot analysis indicated that Rnt1 cleavage is not completely blocked by the mutations we designed. Therefore, the reviewer is correct that tetraloop mutations did not have the expected disruptive effect in vivo. Future investigations will be required to fully understand this. This was a minor point and removing this focuses the paper on its major contributions

      (4) To support the assertion that YDR514C cleavage is required for normal "homeostasis," and more specifically that it is the major contributor to the rnt1∆ growth defect, the authors should express the YDR514C-G220S mutant in the rDNA∆ strains with mutations in the 3'-ETS (assuming they disrupt ETS processing, see above). This simple experiment should provide a relative sense of "importance" for one or the other cleavage being responsible for the rnt1∆ defect. Given the accepted role of Rnt1 cleavage in rRNA processing and a dogmatic view that this is the reason for the rnt1∆ growth defect, such a result would be surprising and elevate the functional relevance and significance of Rnt1 mRNA cleavage.

      We agree that the experiment proposed by the reviewer is very simple, but we are puzzled by the rationale. First, our experiments do not support that there is anything special about the G220S mutation in YDR514C. A complete loss of function (ydr514c∆) also suppresses the growth defect, suggesting that ydr514c-G220S is a simple loss of function allele. We have clarified that the G220S mutation is distant from the stem-loop recognized by Rnt1 and is unlikely to affect cleavage by Rnt1. Instead, Rnt1 cleavage and the G220S mutation are independent alternative ways to reduce Ydr514c function. We have clarified this point in the text. 

      As mentioned in response to point #3, we have included other additional experiments that address the same overall question raised here – the importance of YDR514C mRNA cleavage by Rnt1.    

      (5) Given that some Rnt1 mRNA cleavage is likely nuclear, it is possible that some of these targets are nascent mRNA transcripts, as opposed to mature but unexported mRNA transcripts, as proposed in the manuscript. A role for Rnt1 in co-transcriptional mRNA cleavage would be conceptually similar to Rnt1 cleavage of the rRNA 3'-ETS to enable RNA Pol I "torpedo" termination by Rat1, described by Proudfoot et al (PMID 20972219). To further delineate this point, the authors could e.g., examine the poly-A tails on abundant Rnt1 targets to establish whether they are mature, polyadenylated mRNAs (e.g., northern analysis of oligo-dT purified material). A more direct test would be PARE analysis of oligo-dT enriched or depleted material to determine the poly-A status of the cleavage products. Alternatively, their association with chromatin could be examined. 

      We have added the requested PARE analysis of oligo-dT enriched or depleted material to determine the polyA status of the cleavage products and related discussions. These confirm our proposal that Rnt1 cleaves mature but unexported mRNA transcripts

      We also note that the northern blots shown in figures 2E, 4C, and 5B use oligo dT selected RNA because the signal was undetectable when we used total RNA. This suggests that the cleaved mRNAs are indeed polyadenylated. 

      The term nascent is somewhat ambiguous, but if the reviewer means RNA that is still associated with Pol II and has not yet been cleaved by the cleavage and polyadenylation machinery, we think that is inconsistent with our findings. We have also re-analyzed the NET-seq data from https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21248844/ and find no prominent peaks for our Rnt1 sites in Pol II associated RNAs, although for BDF2 NET-seq does suggest that “spliceosome-mediated decay” is co-transcriptional as would be expected. Altogether these data confirm our previous proposal that Rnt1 mainly cleaves mRNAs that have completed polyadenylated but are not yet exported.

      (6) While laboratory strains of budding yeast have a single RNase III ortholog Rnt1, several other budding yeast have a functional RNAi system with Dcr and Ago (PMID 19745116), and laboratory yeast strains are a derived state due to pressure from the killer virus to lose the RNAi system (PMID 21921191). The current study could provide new insight into the relative substrate preferences of Rnt1 and budding yeast Dicer, which could be experimentally confirmed by expressing Dcr in RNT1 and rnt1∆ strains. In lieu of experiments, discussion of the relevance of Rnt1 cleavage compared to yeast RNAi should be included in the discussion before the "human implications" section.

      The reviewer points out that most other eukaryotic species have multiple RNase III family members, which is a general point we discussed and have now expanded on. The reviewer specifically points to papers that study a species that was incorrectly referred to as Saccharomyces castellii in PMID 19745116, but whose current name is Naumovozyma castellii, reflecting that it is not that closely related to S. cerevisiae (diverged about 86 million years ago; for the correct species phylogeny, see http://ygob.ucd.ie/browser/species.html, as both of the published papers the reviewer cites have some errors in the phylogeny). 

      The other species discussed in PMID 19745116 (Vanderwaltozyma polyspora and Candida albicans) are even more distant. There have been several studies on substrate specificity of Dcr1 versus Rnt1 (including PMID 19745116). 

      The reviewer suggests that expressing Dcr1 in S. cerevisiae would be a valuable addition. However, we can’t envision a mechanism by which S. cerevisiae maintained physiologically relevant Dcr1 substrates in the absence of Dcr1. The results from the proposed study would, in our opinion, be limited to identifying RNAs that can be cleaved in this particular artificial system. We think an important implication of our work is that similar studies to ours should be caried out in rnt1∆, dcr1∆, and double mutants in either S. pombe or N. castellii, as well as in drosha knock outs in animals, and we discuss this in more detail in the revised paper. 

      (7) For SNR84 in Figure S3D, it appears that the TSS may be upstream of the annotated gene model. Does RNA-seq coverage (from external datasets) extend upstream to these additional mapped cleavages? The assertion that the mRNA is uncapped is concerning; an alternative explanation is that the nascent mRNA has a cap initially but is subsequently cleaved by Rnt1. This point should be clarified or reworded for accuracy.

      We agree with the reviewer that the most likely explanation is that the primary SNR84 transcript is capped, and 5’ end processed by Rnt1 and Rat1 to make a mature 5’ monophosphorylated SNR84 and have clarified the text accordingly. We suspect our usage of “uncapped” might have been confusing. “uncapped” was not meant to indicate that the primary transcript did not receive a cap, but instead that the mature transcript did not have a cap. We now use “5’ end processed” and “5’ monophosphorylated”. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):  

      The yeast double-stranded RNA endonuclease Rnt1, a homolog of bacterial RNase III, mediates the processing of pre-rRNA, pre-snRNA, and pre-snoRNA molecules. Cells lacking Rnt1 exhibit pronounced growth defects, particularly at lower temperatures. In this manuscript, Notice-Sarpaning examines whether these growth defects can be attributed at least in part to a function of Rnt1 in mRNA degradation. To test this, the authors apply parallel analysis of RNA ends (PARE), which they developed in previous work, to identify polyA+ fragments with 5' monophosphates in RNT1 yeast that are absent in rnt1Δ cells. Because such RNAs are substrates for 5' to 3' exonucleolytic decay by Rat1 in the nucleus or Xrn1 in the cytoplasm, these analyses were performed in a rat1-ts xrn1Δ background. The data recapitulate known Rtn1 cleavage sites in rRNA, snRNAs, and snoRNAs, and identify 122 putative novel substrates, approximately half of which are mRNAs. Of these, two-thirds are predicted to contain double-stranded stem loop structures with A/UGNN tetraloops, which serve as a major determinant of Rnt1 substrate recognition. Rtn1 resides in the nucleus, and it likely cleaves mRNAs there, but cleavage products seem to be degraded after export to the cytoplasm, as analysis of published PARE data shows that some of them accumulate in xrn1Δ cells. The authors then leverage the slow growth of rnt1Δ cells for experimental evolution. Sequencing analysis of thirteen faster-growing strains identifies mutations predominantly mapping to genes encoding nuclear exosome co-factors. Some of the strains have mutations in genes encoding a laratdebranching enzyme, a ribosomal protein nuclear import factor, poly(A) polymerase 1, and the RNAbinding protein Puf4. In one of the puf4 mutant strains, a second mutation is also present in YDR514C, which the authors identify as an mRNA substrate cleaved by Rnt1. Deletion of either puf4 or ydr514C marginally improves the growth of rnt1Δ cells, which the authors interpret as evidence that mRNA cleavage by Rnt1 plays a role in maintaining cellular homeostasis by controlling mRNA turnover. 

      While the PARE data and their subsequent in vitro validation convincingly demonstrate Rnt1mediated cleavage of a small subset of yeast mRNAs, the data supporting the biological significance of these cleavage events is substantially less compelling. This makes it difficult to establish whether Rnt1-mediated mRNA cleavage is biologically meaningful or simply "collateral damage" due to a coincidental presence of its target motif in these transcripts.

      We thank the reviewer and have added additional data to support our conclusion that mRNA cleavage, at least for YDR514C, is not simply collateral damage, but a physiologically relevant function of Rnt1. From an evolutionary perspective, cleavage of mRNAs by Rnt1 might have initially been collateral damage, but if there is a way to use this mechanism, evolution is probably going to use it.

      (1) A major argument in support of the claim that "several mRNAs rely heavily on Rnt1 for turnover" comes from comparing number of PARE reads at the transcript start site (as a proxy for fraction of decapped transcripts) and at the Rnt1 cleavage site (as a proxy for fraction of Rnt1-cleaved transcripts). The argument for this is that "the major mRNA degradation pathway is through decapping". However, polyA tail shortening usually precedes decapping, and transcripts with short polyA tails would be strongly underrepresented in PARE sequencing libraries, which were constructed after two rounds of polyA+ RNA selection. This will likely underestimate the fraction of decapped transcripts for each mRNA. There is a wide range of well-established methods that can be used to directly measure differences in the half-life of Rnt1 mRNA targets in RNT1 vs rnt1Δ cells. Because the PARE data rely on the presence of a 5' phosphate to generate sequencing reads, they also cannot be used to estimate what fraction of a given mRNA transcript is actually cleaved by Rnt1. 

      The reviewer is correct that decapping preferentially affects mRNAs with shortened poly(A) tails, that Rnt1 cleavage likely affects mostly newly made mRNAs with long poly(A) tails, and that PARE may underestimate the decay of mRNAs with shortened poly(A) tails. We have reanalyzed our previously published data where we performed PARE on both the poly(A)-enriched fraction and the poly(A)-depleted fraction (that remains after two rounds of oligo dT selection). Rnt1 products are over-represented in the poly(A)-enriched fraction, while decapping products are enriched in the poly(A)-depleted fraction, providing further support to our conclusion that Rnt1 cleaves nuclear RNA. We have re-written key sections of the paper accordingly.

      The reviewer also points out that “There is a wide range of well-established methods that can be used to directly measure differences in the half-life of Rnt1 mRNA targets in RNT1 vs rnt1Δ cells.” However, all of those methods measure mRNA degradation rates from the steady state pool, which is mostly cytoplasmic. We have, in different contexts, used these methods, but as we pointed out they are inappropriate to measure degradation of nuclear RNA. There are some studies that measure nuclear degradation rates, but this requires purifying nuclei. There are two major drawbacks to this. First, it cannot distinguish between degradation in the nucleus and export from the nucleus because both processes cause disappearance from the nucleus. Second, the purification of yeast nuclei requires “spheroplasting” or enzymatically removing the rigid cell wall. This spheroplasting is likely to severely alter the physiological state of the yeast cell. Given these significant drawbacks and the substantial time and money required, we chose not to perform this experiment.  

      (2) Rnt1 is almost exclusively nuclear, and the authors make a compelling case that its concentration in the cytoplasm would likely be too low to result in mRNA cleavage. The model for Rnt1-mediated mRNA turnover would therefore require mRNAs to be cleaved prior to their nuclear export in a manner that would be difficult to control. Alternatively, the Rnt1 targets would need to re-enter prior to cleavage, followed by export of the cleaved fragments for cytoplasmic decay. These processes would need to be able to compete with canonical 5' to 3' and 3' to 5' exonucleolytic decay to influence mRNA fate in a biologically meaningful way.

      We disagree that mRNA export would be difficult to control, as is elegantly demonstrated by the 13 KDa HIV Rev protein. The export of many other RNAs is tightly controlled such that many RNAs are rapidly degraded in the nucleus by, for example, Rat1 and the RNA exosome, while other RNAs are rapidly exported. Indeed, the competition between RNA export and nuclear degradation is generally thought to be an important quality control for a variety of mRNAs and ncRNAs. We do agree with the reviewer that re-import of mRNAs appears unlikely (which is why we do not discuss it), although it occurs efficiently for other Rnt1-cleaved RNAs such as snRNAs. We have clarified the text accordingly, including in the introduction, results, and discussion. 

      (3) The experimental evolution clearly demonstrates that mutations in nuclear exosome factors are the most frequent suppressors of the growth defects caused by Rnt1 loss. This can be rationalized by stabilization of nuclear exosome substrates such as misprocessed snRNAs or snoRNAs, which are the major targets of Rnt1. The rescue mutations in other pathways linked to ribosomal proteins (splicing, ribosomal protein import, ribosomal mRNA binding) support this interpretation. By contrast, the potential suppressor mutation in YDR514C does not occur on its own but only in combination with a puf4 mutation; it is also unclear whether it is located within the Rnt1 cleavage motif or if it impacts Rnt1 cleavage at all. This can easily be tested by engineering the mutation into the endogenous YDR514C locus with CRISPR/Cas9 or expressing wild-type and mutant YDR514C from a plasmid, along with assaying for Rnt1 cleavage by northern blot. Notably, the growth defect complementation of YDR514C deletion in rnt1Δ cells is substantially less pronounced than the growth advantage afforded by nuclear exosome mutations (Figure S9, evolved strains 1 to 5). These data rather argue for a primary role of Rnt1 in promoting cell growth by ensuring efficient ribosome biogenesis through pre-snRNA/pre-snoRNA processing. 

      The reviewer makes several points. 

      First, we have clarified that the ydr514c-G220S mutation is not near the Rnt1 cleavage motif and is unlikely to affect cleavage by Rnt1. This is exactly what would be expected for a mutation that was selected for in an rnt1∆ strain. Although the reviewer appears to expect it, a mutation that affects Rnt1 cleavage could not be selected for in a strain that lacks Rnt1.

      Second, the reviewer points out that the original ydr514c mutations arose in a strain that also had a puf4 deletion. However, we show that ydr514c∆ also suppresses rnt1∆. Furthermore, we have added additional data that overexpressing an uncleavable YDR514C mRNA affects yeast growth at 37 °C more than the wild-type cleavable form further supporting that the cleavage of YDR154C by Rnt1 is physiologically relevant. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) The description of the PARE library construction protocol and data analysis workflow is insufficient to ensure their robustness and reproducibility. The library construction protocol should include details of the individual steps, and the data analysis workflow description should include package versions and exact commands used for each analysis step.

      We have clarified that the experiments were performed exactly as previously described and have included very detailed methods. The Galaxy server does not require commands and instead we have indicated the parameters chosen in the various steps. We have also added that the PARE libraries for poly(A)+ and poly(A)- fractions were generated in the lab of Pam Green according to their protocol, which is not exactly the same as ours. Nevertheless, the Rnt1 sites are also evident from those libraries, further demonstrating the robustness of our data. 

      (2) PARE signal is expressed as a ratio of sequencing coverage at a given nucleotide in RNT1 vs rnt1Δ cells. This poses challenges to estimating fold changes: by definition, there should be no coverage at Rnt1 cleavage sites in rnt1Δ cells, as there will not be any 5' monophosphate-containing mRNA fragments to be ligated to the library construction linker. This should be accounted for in the data analysis pipeline - the DESeq2 package, for example, handles this very well (https://support.bioconductor.org/p/64014/).

      The reviewer is correct and we have clarified how we do account for the possibility of having 0 reads by adding an arbitrary 0.01 cpm to all PARE scores for wild type and mutant. In the original manuscript this was not explicitly mentioned and the reader would have to go to our previous paper to learn about this detail. Adding this 0.01 cpm pseudocount avoids dividing by 0 when we calculate a comPARE score. This means we actually underestimate the fold change. As can be seen in the red line in the image below, the y-axis modified log2FC score maxes out along a diagonal line at log2([average RNT1 reads]/0.01) instead of at infinity. That is, at a wild type peak height of 1 cpm, the maximum possible score is log2(1.01/.01), which equals 6.66, and at 10 cpm, the maximum score is ~10, etc.). As can be seen, many of the scores fall along this diagonal, reflecting that indeed, there are 0 reads in the rnt1∆ samples.

      Author response image 1.

      There are multiple ways to deal with this issue, and ours is not uncommon. DESeq2, suggested by the reviewer, uses a different method, which relies on the assumption that the dispersion of read counts for genes of any given expression strength is constant, and then uses that dispersion to “correct” the 0 read counts. While this is a valid way for differential gene expression when comparing similar RNAs, the underlying assumption that the dispersion of expression of all genes is similar for similar expression level is questionable for comparing, for example, mRNAs, snoRNAs, and snRNAs. Thus, we are not convinced that this is a better way to deal with 0 counts. Our analysis accepts that 0 might be the best estimate for the number of counts that are expected from rnt1∆ samples. 

      (3) The analysis in Figure S8 is insufficient to demonstrate that the four mRNAs depicted are significantly more abundant in rnt1Δ vs RNT1 cells - differences in coverage could simply be a result of different sequencing depth. Please use an appropriate method for estimating differential expression from RNA-Seq data (e.g., DESeq2). 

      Unfortunately, the previously published data we included as figure S8 (now figure S9) did not include replicates, and we agree that it does not rigorously show an effect. The reviewer suggests that we analyze the data by DESeq2, which requires replicates, and thus, cannot be done. Instead we have clarified this. If the reviewer is not satisfied with this, we are prepared to delete it.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      Overall, the manuscript reveals the role of actin polymerization to drive the fusion of myoblasts during adult muscle regeneration. This pathway regulates fusion in many contexts, but whether it was conserved in adult muscle regeneration remained unknown. Robust genetic tools and histological analyses were used to support the claims convincingly. 

      We very much appreciate the positive comments from this Reviewer.

      There are a few interpretations that could be adjusted. 

      The beginning of the results about macrophages traversing ghost fibers after regeneration was a surprise given the context in the abstract and introduction. These results also lead to new questions about this biology that would need to be answered to substantiate the claims in this section. Also, it is unclear the precise new information learned here because it seems obvious that macrophages would need to extravasate the basement membrane to enter ghost fibers and macrophages are known to have this ability. Moreover, the model in Figure 4D has macrophages and BM but there is not even mention of this in the legend. The authors may wish to consider removing this topic from the manuscript. 

      We appreciate this comment and acknowledge that the precise behavior of macrophages when they infiltrate and/or exit the ghost fibers during muscle regeneration is not the major focus of this study. However, we think that visualizing macrophages squeezing through tiny openings on the basement membrane to infiltrate and/or exit from the ghost fibers is valuable. Thus, we have moved the data from the original main Figure 2 to the new Figure S1. 

      Regarding the model in Figure 4D, we have removed the macrophages because the depicted model represents a stage after the macrophages’ exit from the ghost fiber. 

      Which Pax7CreER line was used? In the methods, the Jax number provided is the Gaka line but in the results, Lepper et al 2009 are cited, which is not the citation for the Gaka line. 

      The Pax7<sup>CreER</sup> line used in this study is the one generated in Lepper et al. 2009. We corrected this information in “Material and Methods” of the revised manuscript. 

      Did the authors assess regeneration in the floxed mice that do not contain Cre as a control? Or is it known these alleles do not perturb the function of the targeted gene? 

      We examined muscle regeneration in the floxed mice without Cre. As shown in Figure 1 below, none of the homozygous ArpC2<sup>fl/fl</sup>, N-WASP<sup>fl/fl</sup>, CYFIP1<sup>fl/fl</sup> or N-WASP<sup>fl/fl</sup>;CYFIP1<sup>fl/fl</sup> alleles affected  muscle regeneration, indicating that these alleles do not perturb the function of the targeted gene.  

      Author response image 1.

      The muscle regeneration was normal in mice with only floxed target gene(s). Cross sections of TA muscles were stained with anti-Dystrophin and DAPI at dpi 14. n = 3 mice of each genotype, and > 80 ghost fibers in each mouse were examined. Mean ± s.d. values are shown in the dot-bar plot, and significance was determined by two-tailed student’s t-test. ns: not significant. Scale bar: 100 μm.

      The authors comment: 'Interestingly, expression of the fusogenic proteins, MymK and MymX, was up-regulated in the TA muscle of these mice (Figure S4F), suggesting that fusogen overexpression is not able to rescue the SCM fusion defect resulted from defective branched actin polymerization.' It is unclear if fusogens are truly overexpressed because the analysis is performed at dpi 4 when the expression of fusogens may be decreased in control mice because they have already fused. Also, only two animals were analyzed and it is unclear if MymX is definitively increased. The authors should consider adjusting the interpretation to SCM fusion defect resulting from defective branched actin polymerization is unlikely to be caused by a lack of fusogen expression. 

      We agree with the Reviewer that fusogen expression may simply persist till later time points in fusion mutants without being up-regulated. We have modified our interpretation according to the Reviewer’s suggestion. 

      Regarding the western blots in the original Figure S4F, we now show one experiment from each genotype, and include the quantification of MymK and MymX protein levels from 3 animals in the revised manuscript (new Figure S5F-S5H). 

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) The ArpC2 cKO data could be presented in a clearer fashion. In the text, ArpC2 is discussed but in the figure, there are many other KOs presented and ArpC2 is the fourth one shown in the figure. The other KOs are discussed later. It may be worthwhile for the authors to rearrange the figures to make it easier for readers. 

      Thank you for this suggestion. We have rearranged the genotypes in the figures accordingly and placed ArpC2 cKO first. 

      The authors comment: 'Since SCM fusion is mostly completed at dpi 4.5 (Figure 1B) (Collins et al. 2024)'. This is not an accurate statement of the cited paper. While myofibers are formed by dpi 4.5 with centralized nuclei, there are additional fusion events through at least 21dpi. The authors should adjust their statement to better reflect the data in Collins et al 2024, which could include mentioning that primary fusions could be completed at dpi 4.5 and this is the process they are studying. 

      We have adjusted our statement accordingly in the revised manuscript.

      The authors comment: 'Consistent with this, the frequency distribution of SCM number per ghost fiber displayed a dramatic shift toward higher numbers in the ArpC2<sup>cKO</sup> mice (Figure S5C). These results indicate that the actin cytoskeleton plays an essential role in SCM fusion as the fusogenic proteins. Should it read 'These results indicate that the actin cytoskeleton plays AS an essential role in SCM fusion as the fusogenic proteins'? 

      Yes, and we adjusted this statement accordingly in the revised manuscript. 

      Minor comments 

      (1) In the results the authors state 'To induce genetic deletion of ArpC2 in satellites....'; 'satellites' is a term not typically used for satellite cells. 

      Thanks for catching this. We changed “satellites” to satellite cells.

      (2) In the next sentence, the satellite should be capitalized. 

      Done.

      (3) The cross-section area should be a 'cross-sectional area'. 

      Changed.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      To fuse, differentiated muscle cells must rearrange their cytoskeleton and assemble actinenriched cytoskeletal structures. These actin foci are proposed to generate mechanical forces necessary to drive close membrane apposition and fusion pore formation. 

      While the study of these actin-rich structures has been conducted mainly in drosophila, the present manuscript presents clear evidence this mechanism is necessary for the fusion of adult muscle stem cells in vivo, in mice. 

      We thank this Reviewer for the positive comment.

      However, the authors need to tone down their interpretation of their findings and remember that genetic proof for cytoskeletal actin remodeling to allow muscle fusion in mice has already been provided by different labs (Vasyutina E, et al. 2009 PMID: 19443691; Gruenbaum-Cohen Y, et al., 2012 PMID: 22736793; Hamoud et al., 2014 PMID: 24567399). In the same line of thought, the authors write they "demonstrated a critical function of branched actin-propelled invasive protrusions in skeletal muscle regeneration". I believe this is not a premiere, since Randrianarison-Huetz V, et al., previously reported the existence of finger-like actin-based protrusions at fusion sites in mice myoblasts (PMID: 2926942) and Eigler T, et al., live-recorded said "fusogenic synapse" in mice myoblasts (PMID: 34932950). Hence, while the data presented here clearly demonstrate that ARP2/3 and SCAR/WAVE complexes are required for differentiating satellite cell fusion into multinucleated myotubes, this is an incremental story, and the authors should put their results in the context of previous literature. 

      In this study, we focused on elucidating the mechanisms of myoblast fusion during skeletal muscle regeneration, which remained largely unknown. Thus, we respectfully disagree with this Reviewer that “this is an incremental story” for the following reasons – 

      First, while we agree with this Reviewer that “genetic proof for cytoskeletal actin remodeling to allow muscle fusion in mice has already been provided by different labs”, most of the previous genetic studies, including ours (Lu et al. 2024), characterizing the roles of actin regulators (Elmo, Dock180, Rac, Cdc42, WASP, WIP, WAVE, Arp2/3) in mouse myoblast fusion were conducted during embryogenesis (Laurin et al. 2008; Vasyutina et al. 2009; Gruenbaum-Cohen et al. 2012; Tran et al. 2022; Lu et al. 2024), instead of during adult muscle regeneration, the latter of which is the focus of this study. 

      Second, prior to this study, several groups tested the roles of SRF, CaMKII theta and gemma, Myo10, and Elmo, which affect actin cytoskeletal dynamics, in muscle regeneration. These studies have shown that knocking out SRF, CaMKII, Myo10, or Elmo caused defects in mouse muscle regeneration, based on measuring the cross-sectional diameters of regenerated myofibers only (Randrianarison-Huetz et al. 2018; Eigler et al. 2021; Hammers et al. 2021; Tran et al. 2022). However, none of these studies visualized myoblast fusion at the cellular and subcellular levels during muscle regeneration in vivo. For this reason, it remained unclear whether the muscle regeneration defects in these mutants were indeed due to defects in myoblast fusion, in particular, defects in the formation of invasive protrusions at the fusogenic synapse. Thus, the previous studies did not demonstrate a direct role for the actin cytoskeleton, as well as the underlying mechanisms, in myoblast fusion during muscle regeneration in vivo.

      Third, regarding actin-propelled invasive protrusions at the fusogenic synapse, our previous study (Lu et al. 2024) revealed these structures by fluorescent live cell imaging and electron microscopy (EM) in cultured muscle cells, as well as EM studies in mouse embryonic limb muscle, firmly establishing a direct role for invasive protrusions in mouse myoblast fusion in cultured muscle cells and during embryonic development. Randrianarison-Huetz et al. (2018) reported the existence of finger-like actin-based protrusions at cell contact sites of cultured mouse myoblasts. It was unclear from their study, however, if these protrusions were at the actual fusion sites and if they were invasive (Randrianarison-Huetz et al. 2018). Eigler et al. (2021) reported protrusions at fusogenic synapse in cultured mouse myoblasts. It was unclear from their study, however, if the protrusions were actin-based and if they were invasive (Eigler et al. 2021). Neither Randrianarison-Huetz et al. (2018) nor Eigler et al. (2021) characterized protrusions in developing mouse embryos or regenerating adult muscle. 

      Taken together, to our knowledge, this is the first study to characterize myoblast fusion at the cellular and subcellular level during mouse muscle regeneration. We demonstrate that branched actin polymerization promotes invasive protrusion formation and myoblast fusion during the regeneration process. We believe that this work has laid the foundation for additional mechanistic studies of myoblast fusion during skeletal muscle regeneration.

      The citations in the original manuscript were primarily focused on previous in vivo studies of Arp2/3 and the actin nucleation-promoting factors (NPFs), N-WASP and WAVE (Richardson et al. 2007; Gruenbaum-Cohen et al. 2012), and of invasive protrusions mediating myoblast fusion in intact animals (Drosophila, zebrafish and mice) (Sens et al. 2010; Luo et al. 2022; Lu et al. 2024). We agree with this reviewer, however, that it would be beneficial to the readers if we provide a more comprehensive summary of previous literature, including studies of both intact animals and cultured cells, as well as studies of additional actin regulators upstream of the NPFs, such as small GTPases and their GEFs. Thus, we have significantly expanded our Introduction to include these studies and cited the corresponding literature in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) I am concerned that the authors did not evaluate the efficiency of the target allele deletion efficiency following Pax7-CreER activation. The majority, if not all, of the published work focusing on this genetic strategy presents the knock-down efficiency using either genotyping PCR, immunolocalization, western-blot; etc... 

      (2) Can the authors provide evidence that the N-WASP, CYFIP1, and ARPC2 proteins are depleted in TAM-treated tissue? Alternatively, can the author perform RT-qPCR on freshly isolated MuSCs to validate the absence of N-WASP, CYFIP1, and ARPC2 mRNA expression?

      Thank you for these comments. We have assessed the target allele deletion efficiency with isolated satellite cells from TAM-injected mice in which Pax7-CreER is activated. Western blot analyses showed that the protein levels of N-WASP, CYFIP1, and ArpC2 significantly decreased in the satellite cells of knockout mice. Please see the new Figure S2.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review): 

      The manuscript by Lu et al. explores the role of the Arp2/3 complex and the actin nucleators NWASP and WAVE in myoblast fusion during muscle regeneration. The results are clear and compelling, effectively supporting the main claims of the study. However, the manuscript could benefit from a more detailed molecular and cellular analysis of the fusion synapse. Additionally, while the description of macrophage extravasation from ghost fibers is intriguing, it seems somewhat disconnected from the primary focus of the work. 

      Despite this, the data are robust, and the major conclusions are well supported. Understanding muscle fusion mechanism is still a widely unexplored topic in the field and the authors make important progress in this domain. 

      We appreciate the positive comments from this Reviewer.

      We agree with this Reviewer and Reviewer #1 that the macrophage study is not the primary focus of the work. However, we think that visualizing macrophages squeezing through tiny openings on the basement membrane to infiltrate and/or exit from the ghost fibers is valuable. Thus, we have moved the data from the original main Figure 2 to the new Figure S1. 

      I have a few suggestions that might strengthen the manuscript as outlined below.  

      (1) Could the authors provide more detail on how they defined cells with "invasive protrusions" in Figure 4C? Membrane blebs are commonly observed in contacting cells, so it would be important to clarify the criteria used for counting this specific event. 

      Thanks for this suggestion. We define invasive protrusions as finger-like protrusions projected by a cell into its fusion partner. Based on our previous studies (Sens et al. 2010; Luo et al. 2022; Lu et al. 2024), these invasive protrusions are narrow (with 100-250 nm diameters) and propelled by mechanically stiff actin bundles. In contrast, membrane blebs are spherical protrusions formed by the detachment of the plasma membrane from the underlying actin cytoskeleton. In general, the blebs are not as mechanically stiff as invasive protrusions and would not be able to project into neighboring cells. Thus, we do not think that the protrusions in Figure 4B are membrane blebs. We clarified the criteria in the text and figure legends of the revised manuscript.

      (2) Along the same line, please clarify what each individual dot represents in Figure 4C. The authors mention quantifying approximately 83 SCMs from 20 fibers. I assume each dot corresponds to data from individual fibers, but if that's the case, does this imply that only around four SCMs were quantified per fiber? A more detailed explanation would be helpful. 

      To quantitatively assess invasive protrusions in Ctrl and mutant mice, we analyzed 20 randomly selected ghost fibers per genotype. Within each ghost fiber, we examined randomly selected SCMs in a single cross section (a total of 83, 147 and 93 SCMs in Ctrl, ArpC2<sup>cKO</sup> and MymX<sup>cKO</sup> mice were examined, respectively). 

      In Figure 4C, each dot was intended to represent the percentage of SCMs with invasive protrusions in a single cross section of a ghost fiber. However, we mistakenly inserted a wrong graph in the original Figure 4C. We sincerely apologize for this error and have replaced it with the correct graph in the new Figure 4C.

      (3) Localizing ArpC2 at the invasive protrusions would be a strong addition to this study. Furthermore, have the authors examined the localization of Myomaker and Myomixer in ArpC2 mutant cells? This could provide insights into potential disruptions in the fusion machinery.

      We have examined the localization of the Arp2/3 complex on the invasive protrusions in cultured SCMs and included the data in Figure 4A of the original manuscript. Specifically, we showed enrichment of mNeongreen-tagged Arp2, a subunit of the Arp2/3 complex, on the invasive protrusions at the fusogenic synapse of cultured SCMs (see the enlarged panels on the right; also see supplemental video 4). The small size of the invasive protrusions on SCMs prevented a detailed analysis of the precise Arp2 localization along the protrusions.  Please see our recently published paper (Lu et al. 2024) for the detailed localization and function of the Arp2/3 complex during invasive protrusion formation in cultured C2C12 cells. 

      We have also attempted to localize the Arp2/3 complex in the regenerating muscle in vivo using an anti-ArpC2 antibody (Millipore, 07-227-I), which was used in many studies to visualize the Arp2/3 complex in cultured cells. Unfortunately, the antibody detected non-specific signals in the regenerating TA muscle of the ArpC2<sup>cKO</sup> animals. Thus, it cannot be used to detect specific ArpC2 signals in muscle tissues. Besides the specificity issue of the antibody, it is technically challenging to visualize invasive protrusions with an F-actin probe at the fusogenic synapses of regenerating muscle by light microscopy, due to the high background of F-actin signaling within the muscle cells. 

      Regarding the fusogens, we show that both are present in the TA muscle of the ArpC2<sup>cKO</sup> animals by western blot (Figure S5F-S5H). Thus, the fusion defect in these animals is not due to the lack of fusogen expression. Since the focus of this study is on the role of the actin cytoskeleton in muscle regeneration, the subcellular localization of the fusogens was not investigated in the current study. 

      (4) As a minor curiosity, can ArpC2 WT and mutant cells fuse with each other?

      Our previous work in Drosophila embryos showed that Arp2/3-mediated branched actin polymerization is required in both the invading and receiving fusion partners (Sens et al. 2010).  To address this question in mouse muscle cells, we co-cultured GFP<sup>+</sup> WT cells with mScarleti<sup>+</sup> WT (or mScarleti<sup>+</sup> ArpC2<sup>cKO</sup> cells) in vitro and assessed their ability to fuse with one another. We found that ArpC2<sup>cKO</sup> cells could barely fuse with WT cells (new Figure 3F and 3G), indicating that the Arp2/3-mediated branched actin polymerization is required in both fusion partners. This result is consistent with our findings in Drosophila embryos. 

      (5) The authors report a strong reduction in CSA at 14 dpi and 28 dpi, attributing this defect primarily to failed myoblast fusion. Although this claim is supported by observations at early time points, I wonder whether the Arp2/3 complex might also play roles in myofibers after fusion. For instance, Arp2/3 could be required for the growth or maintenance of healthy myofibers, which could also contribute to the reduced CSA observed, since regenerated myofibers inherit the ArpC2 knockout from the stem cells. Could the authors address or exclude this possibility? This is rather a broader criticism of how things are being interpreted in general beyond this paper. 

      This is an interesting question. It is possible that Arp2/3 may play a role in the growth or maintenance of healthy myofibers. However, the muscle injury and regeneration process may not be the best system to address this question because of the indispensable early step of myoblast fusion. Ideally, one may want to knockout Arp2/3 in myofibers of young healthy mice and observe fiber growth in the absence of muscle injury and compare that to the wild-type littermates. Since these experiments are out of the scope of this study, we revised our conclusion that the fusion defect in ArpC2<sup>cKO</sup> mice should account, at least in part, for the strong reduction in CSA at 14 dpi and 28 dpi, without excluding additional possibilities such as Arp2/3’s potential role in the growth or maintenance of healthy myofibers.  

      References:

      Eigler T, Zarfati G, Amzallag E, Sinha S, Segev N, Zabary Y, Zaritsky A, Shakked A, Umansky KB, Schejter ED et al. 2021. ERK1/2 inhibition promotes robust myotube growth via CaMKII activation resulting in myoblast-to-myotube fusion. Dev Cell 56: 3349-3363 e3346.

      Gruenbaum-Cohen Y, Harel I, Umansky KB, Tzahor E, Snapper SB, Shilo BZ, Schejter ED. 2012. The actin regulator N-WASp is required for muscle-cell fusion in mice. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 109: 11211-11216.

      Hammers DW, Hart CC, Matheny MK, Heimsath EG, Lee YI, Hammer JA, 3rd, Cheney RE, Sweeney HL. 2021. Filopodia powered by class x myosin promote fusion of mammalian myoblasts. Elife 10.

      Laurin M, Fradet N, Blangy A, Hall A, Vuori K, Cote JF. 2008. The atypical Rac activator Dock180 (Dock1) regulates myoblast fusion in vivo. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 105: 15446-15451.

      Lu Y, Walji T, Ravaux B, Pandey P, Yang C, Li B, Luvsanjav D, Lam KH, Zhang R, Luo Z et al. 2024. Spatiotemporal coordination of actin regulators generates invasive protrusions in cell-cell fusion. Nat Cell Biol 26: 1860-1877.

      Luo Z, Shi J, Pandey P, Ruan ZR, Sevdali M, Bu Y, Lu Y, Du S, Chen EH. 2022. The cellular architecture and molecular determinants of the zebrafish fusogenic synapse. Dev Cell 57: 1582-1597 e1586.

      Randrianarison-Huetz V, Papaefthymiou A, Herledan G, Noviello C, Faradova U, Collard L, Pincini A, Schol E, Decaux JF, Maire P et al. 2018. Srf controls satellite cell fusion through the maintenance of actin architecture. J Cell Biol 217: 685-700.

      Richardson BE, Beckett K, Nowak SJ, Baylies MK. 2007. SCAR/WAVE and Arp2/3 are crucial for cytoskeletal remodeling at the site of myoblast fusion. Development 134: 4357-4367.

      Sens KL, Zhang S, Jin P, Duan R, Zhang G, Luo F, Parachini L, Chen EH. 2010. An invasive podosome-like structure promotes fusion pore formation during myoblast fusion. J Cell Biol 191: 1013-1027.

      Tran V, Nahle S, Robert A, Desanlis I, Killoran R, Ehresmann S, Thibault MP, Barford D, Ravichandran KS, Sauvageau M et al. 2022. Biasing the conformation of ELMO2 reveals that myoblast fusion can be exploited to improve muscle regeneration. Nat Commun 13: 7077.

      Vasyutina E, Martarelli B, Brakebusch C, Wende H, Birchmeier C. 2009. The small G-proteins Rac1 and Cdc42 are essential for myoblast fusion in the mouse. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 106: 8935-8940.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      EnvA-pseudotyped glycoprotein-deleted rabies virus has emerged as an essential tool for tracing monosynaptic inputs to genetically defined neuron populations in the mammalian brain. Recently, in addition to the SAD B19 rabies virus strain first described by Callaway and colleagues in 2007, the CVS N2c rabies virus strain has become popular due to its low toxicity and high trans-synaptic transfer efficiency. However, despite its widespread use in the mammalian brain, particularly in mice, the application of this cell-type-specific monosynaptic rabies tracing system in zebrafish has been limited by low labeling efficiency and high toxicity. In this manuscript, the authors aimed to develop an efficient retrograde monosynaptic rabies-mediated circuit mapping tool for larval zebrafish. Given the translucent nature of larval zebrafish, whole-brain neuronal activities can be monitored, perturbed, and recorded over time. Introducing a robust circuit mapping tool for larval zebrafish would enable researchers to simultaneously investigate the structure and function of neural circuits, which would be of significant interest to the neural circuit research community. Furthermore, the ability to track rabies-labeled cells over time in the transparent brain could enhance our understanding of the trans-synaptic retrograde tracing mechanism of the rabies virus. 

      To establish an efficient rabies virus tracing system in the larval zebrafish brain, the authors conducted meticulous side-by-side experiments to determine the optimal combination of trans-expressed rabies G proteins, TVA receptors, and recombinant rabies virus strains. Consistent with observations in the mouse brain, the CVS N2c strain trans-complemented with N2cG was found to be superior to the SAD B19 combination, offering lower toxicity and higher efficiency in labeling presynaptic neurons. Additionally, the authors tested various temperatures for the larvae post-virus injection and identified 36℃ as the optimal temperature for improved virus labeling. They then validated the system in the cerebellar circuits, noting evolutionary conservation in the cerebellar structure between zebrafish and mammals. The monosynaptic inputs to Purkinje cells from granule cells were neatly confirmed through ablation experiments.

      However, there are a couple of issues that this study should address. Additionally, conducting some extra experiments could provide valuable information to the broader research field utilizing recombinant rabies viruses as retrograde tracers.

      (1) It was observed that many radial glia were labeled, which casts doubt on the specificity of trans-synaptic spread between neurons. The issues of transneuronal labeling of glial cells should be addressed and discussed in more detail. In this manuscript, the authors used a transgenic zebrafish line carrying a neuron-specific Cre-dependent reporter and EnvA-CVS N2c(dG)-Cre virus to avoid the visualization of virally infected glial cells. However, this does not solve the real issue of glial cell labeling and the possibility of a nonsynaptic spread mechanism.

      In agreement with the reviewer’s suggestion, we have incorporated a standalone section in the revised Discussion (page 9) to address the issue of transneuronal glial labeling, including its spatial distribution, temporal dynamics, potential mechanisms, and possible strategies for real resolution.

      Regarding the specificity of trans-synaptic spread between neurons, we have demonstrated that our transsynaptic tracing system reliably and specifically labels input neurons. Structurally, we only observed labeling of inferior olivary cells (IOCs) outside the cerebellum, which are the only known extracerebellar inputs to Purkinje cells (PCs), while all other traced neurons remained confined within the cerebellum throughout the observation period (see Figure 2G–I). Functionally, we verified that the traced neurons formed synaptic connections with the starter PCs (see Figure 2J–M). Together, these findings support the conclusion that our system enables robust and specific retrograde monosynaptic tracing of neurons in larval zebrafish.

      Regarding the transneuronal labeling of radial glia cells, we observed that their distribution closely correlates with the location of neuronal somata and dendrites (see Author response image 2). In zebrafish, radial glial cells are considered functional analogs of astrocytes and are often referred to as radial astroglia. The adjacent labeled astroglia may participate in tripartite synapses with the starter neurons and express viral receptors that enable RV particle entry at postsynaptic sites. This suggests that rabies-based tracing in zebrafish may serve as a valuable tool for identifying synaptically associated and functionally connected glia. Leveraging this approach to investigate glia–neuron interactions represents a promising direction for future research.

      In our system, the glial labeling diminishes at later larval stages, likely due to abortive infection (see Author response image 3 and relevant response). However, the eventual clearance of infection does not preclude the initial infection of glial cells, which may compete with neuronal labeling and reduce overall tracing efficiency. Notably, transneuronal infection of glial cells by RV has also been observed in mammals (Marshel et al., 2010). To minimize such off-target labeling, future work should focus on elucidating the mechanisms underlying glial susceptibility—such as receptor-mediated viral entry— and developing strategies to suppress receptor expression specifically in glia, thereby improving the specificity and efficiency of neuronal circuit tracing.

      In addition, wrong citations in Line 307 were made when referring to previous studies discovering the same issue of RVdG-based transneuronal labeling radial glial cells. "The RVdG-based transneuronal labeling of radial glial cells was commonly observed in larval zebrafish29,30".

      The cited work was conducted using vesicular stomatitis virus (VSV). A more thorough analysis and/or discussion on this topic should be included.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the citation inaccuracy. The referenced study employed vesicular stomatitis virus (VSV), which, like RV, is a member of the Rhabdoviridae family. We have revised the text accordingly—from "RVdG-based transneuronal labeling of radial glial cells…" to " Transneuronal labeling of radial glial cells mediated by VSV, a member of the Rhabdoviridae family like RV, has been commonly observed in larval zebrafish" (page 9, line 347).

      Several key questions should be addressed:

      Does the number of labeled glial cells increase over time? 

      Yes, as shown in Figure 2—figure supplement 1C and G, the number of labeled radial glial cells significantly increased from 2 to 6 days post-injection (dpi). This phenomenon has been addressed in the revised Discussion section (page 9, line 357).

      Do they increase at the same rate over time as labeled neurons?

      Although glial cell labeling continued to increase over time, we observed a slowdown in labeling rate between 6 and 10 dpi, as shown in Figure 2—figure supplement 1C and G. Therefore, we divided the timeline into two intervals (2–6 and 6–10 dpi) to compare the rate of increase in labeling between neurons and glia. The rate (R) was defined as the daily change in convergence index. To quantify the difference between neuronal and glial labeling rates, we calculated a labeling rate index: R<sub>g</sub>−R<sub>n</sub>, where R<sub>g</sub> and R<sub>n</sub> denote the rates for glia and neurons, respectively) (Author response image1). Our analysis revealed that, between 2 and 6 dpi, glial cells exhibited a higher labeling rate than neurons. However, this trend reversed between 6 and 10 dpi, with neurons surpassing glial cells in labeling rate. These findings have been included in the revised Discussion section (page 9).

      Author response image 1.

      Labeling rate index of glia and neurons across two time intervals. Data points represent the mean labeling rate index for each tracing strategy within each time interval. *P < 0.05 (nonparametric two-tailed Mann-Whitney test).  

      Are the labeled glial cells only present around the injection site?

      We believe the reviewer is inquiring whether labeled glial cells are spatially restricted to the vicinity of starter neurons. The initial infection is determined by the expression of TVA rather than the injection site. For example, injecting a high volume of virus into the anterior hindbrain resulted in the infection of TVA-expressing cells in distant regions, including the 109 tectum and posterior hindbrain (Author response image 2). 

      Regarding glial labeling, PC starter experiments showed that labeled glial cells (i.e. Bergmann glia) were predominantly localized within the cerebellum, likely due to the confinement of PC dendrites to this region. When using vglut2a to define starter neurons, glial labeling was frequently observed near the soma and dendrites of starter cells (14 out 114 of 17 cases; Author response image 2). These observations suggest that transneuronal labeled glial cells may be synaptically associated with the starter neurons. We have included this point in the revised Discussion section (page 9).

      Author response image 2.

      Location of transneuronal labeled glial cells. (a and b) Confocal images showing the right tectum (a) and posterior hindbrain (b) of different WT larvae expressing EGFP and TVA using UGNT in randomly sparse neurons (vglut2a<sup>+</sup>) and infected with CVSdGtdTomato[EnvA] (magenta) injected into the anterior hindbrain. Dashed yellow circles, starter neurons (EGFP<sup>+</sup>/tdTomato<sup>+</sup>); gray arrows, transneuronally labeled radial glia (tdTomato<sup>+</sup>/EGFP<sup>−</sup>); dashed white lines, tectum or hindbrain boundaries. C, caudal; R, rostral. Scale bars, 20 μm.

      Can the phenomenon of transneuronal labeling of radial glial cells be mitigated if the tracing is done in slightly older larvae?

      Yes, we agree. As elaborated in the following response, we hypothesize that the loss of fluorescence in radial glial cells at later developmental stages is due to abortive infection (see Author response image 3 and associated response). This supports the notion that abortive infection becomes increasingly pronounced as larvae mature, potentially explaining the negligible glial labeling observed in adult zebrafish (Dohaku et al., 2019; Satou et al., 2022). However, as noted in our response to the first comment, the disappearance of fluorescence does not indicate the absence of viral entry. Viral receptors may express on glial cells, allowing initial infection despite a failure in subsequent replication. Consequently, glial infection—though abortive—may still compete with neuronal infection and reduce tracing efficiency.

      What is the survival rate of the infected glial cells over time?

      We observed the disappearance of glial fluorescence after transneuronal labeling, while we did not observe punctate fluorescent debris typically indicative of apoptotic cell death. Therefore, we favor the hypothesis that the loss of glial fluorescence results from abortive infection rather than cell death. Abortive infection refers to a scenario in which viral replication is actively suppressed by host antiviral responses, preventing the production of infectious viral particles. For example, recent studies have shown that lab-attenuated rabies virus (RV) induces the accumulation of aberrant double-stranded DNA in astrocytes, which activates mitochondrial antiviral-signaling protein (MAVS) and subsequent interferon expression (Tian et al., 2018). This antiviral response inhibits RV replication, ultimately resulting in abortive infection. 

      In addition, we quantified the proportion of glial cells labeled at 2 dpi and 4dpi that retained fluorescence over time. By 6 dpi (approximately 11 dpf), glial labeling had largely diminished in both groups (Author response image 3). These results suggest that the decline in glial fluorescence is more closely linked to larval age than to the duration of glial infection, supporting the notion of abortive infection. This also addresses the reviewer’s earlier concern and indicates that glial labeling is mitigated in older larvae.

      Author response image 3.

      Fraction of glial cells with fluorescence retention. (a and b) Proportion of glial cells labeled at 2 dpi (a) and 4 dpi (b) that retained fluorescence over time. Data are from the CVS|N2cG|36°C group. In boxplots: center, median; bounds of box, first and third quartiles; whiskers, minimum and maximum values. n.s., not-significant; *P < 0.05, **P < 0.01 (nonparametric two-tailed Mann-Whitney test).

      If an infected glial cell dies due to infection or gets ablated, does the rabies virus spread from the dead glial cells?

      In our system, glial cells do not express the rabies glycoprotein (G). Therefore, even if glial cells are transneuronally infected, they cannot support viral budding or assembly of infectious particles due to the absence of G (Mebatsion et al., 1996), preventing further viral propagation to neighboring cells.

      If TVA and rabies G are delivered to glial cells, followed by rabies virus injection, will it lead to the infection of other glial cells or neurons?

      We have conducted experiments in which TVA and rabies G were specifically expressed in astroglia using the gfap promoter, followed by RVdG-mCherry[EnvA] injection. This resulted in initial infection of TVA-positive astroglia and occasional subsequent labeling of nearby TVA-negative astroglia (Author response image 4), suggesting astroglia-toastroglia transmission. Notably, no neuronal labeling was observed. This glial-to-glial spread is consistent with previous rabies tracing studies reporting similar phenomena involving the interaction of astrocytes with astrocytes and microglia (Clark et al., 2021). However, the underlying mechanism remains unclear, and we have discussed this in response to the first comment.

      Author response image 4.

      Viral tracing initiated from astroglia. (a) Confocal images of the tectum of a larva expressing EGFP and TVA using UGBT in randomly sparse astroglia (gfap<sup>+</sup>) and infected by SADdG-mCherry[EnvA] (magenta) injected into the anterior hindbrain.  (b) Confocal images of the posterior hindbrain of a larva expressing EGFP and TVA using UGNT in randomly sparse astroglia (gfap<sup>+</sup>) and infected by CVSdG-tdTomato[EnvA] (magenta) injected into the anterior hindbrain. Dashed yellow circles, starter astroglia (EGFP+/mCherry<su>+</sup> or EGFP<sup>+</sup>/tdTomato<sup>+</sup>); gray arrows, transneuronally labeled astroglia (tdTomato<sup>+</sup>/EGFP<sup>−</sup>); dashed white lines, tectum or hindbrain boundaries. C, caudal; R, rostral. Scale bars, 20 μm.<br />

      Answers to any of these questions could greatly benefit the broader research community.

      (2) The optimal virus tracing effect has to be achieved by raising the injected larvae at 36C. Since the routine temperature of zebrafish culture is around 28C, a more thorough characterization of the effect on the health of zebrafish should be conducted.

      Yes, 36°C is required to achieve optimal labeling efficiency. Although this is above the standard zebrafish culture temperature (28°C), previous work (Satou et al., 2022) and our observations indicate that this transient elevation does not adversely affect larval health within the experimental time window. 

      In the previous study, Satou et al. reported no temperature-dependent effects on swimming behavior, social interaction, or odor discrimination in adult fish maintained at 28°C and 36°C. In larvae, both non-injected and virus-injected fish showed a decrease in survival at later time points (7 dpi), with slightly increased mortality observed at elevated temperatures.

      In our study, we raised the same batch of non-virus-injected larvae at 28°C and 36°C, and found no mortality over a 10-day period. For CVS-N2c-injected larvae, electrode insertion caused injury, but survival rates remained around 80% at both temperatures (see Figure 3A). Moreover, we successfully maintained CVS-N2c-injected larvae at 36°C for over a month, indicating that elevated temperature does not adversely affect fish health. Notably, higher temperatures were associated with an accelerated developmental rate. 

      This point was briefly addressed in the previous version and has now been further elaborated in the revised Discussion section (page 8).

      (3) Given the ability of time-lapse imaging of the infected larval zebrafish brain, the system can be taken advantage of to tackle important issues of rabies virus tracing tools.

      a) Toxicity. 

      The toxicity of rabies viruses is an important issue that limits their application and affects the interpretation of traced circuits. For example, if a significant proportion of starter cells die before analysis, the traced presynaptic networks cannot be reliably assigned to a "defined" population of starter cells. In this manuscript, the authors did an excellent job of characterizing the effects of different rabies strains, G proteins derived from various strains, and levels of G protein expression on starter cell survival. However, an additional parameter that should be tested is the dose of rabies virus injection. The current method section states that all rabies virus preparations were diluted to 2x10^8 infection units per ml, and 2-5 nl of virus suspension was injected near the target cells. It would be interesting to know the impact of the dose/volume of virus injection on retrograde tracing efficiency and toxicity. Would higher titers of the virus lead to more efficient labeling but stronger toxicities? What would be the optimal dose/volume to balance efficiency and toxicity? Addressing these questions would provide valuable insights and help optimize the use of rabies viruses for circuit tracing.

      This is an important concern. Viral cytotoxicity is primarily driven by the level of viral transcription and replication, which inhibits host protein synthesis (Komarova et al., 2007). The RVdG-EnvA typically infects cells at a rate of one viral particle per cell (Zhang et al., 2024), suggesting that increasing viral concentration does not proportionally increase percell infection. Accordingly, viral titer and injection volume are unlikely to influence cytotoxicity at the single-cell level. In our experiments, injection volumes up to 20 nl (i.e., 4 to 10 times the standard injection volume) did not affect starter cell survival. However, higher titers or volumes may increase the number of initially infected starter cells, potentially leading to greater overall mortality in larval zebrafish.

      Similarly, given that rabies virus typically infects cells at one particle per cell, increasing viral titer alone is unlikely to enhance tracing efficiency once the virus type is fixed. In contrast, the level of G protein expression significantly influences tracing efficiency (see Figure 2D). However, excessive G protein expression reduces the survival of starter cells (see Figure 3D). Therefore, careful control of G protein levels is essential to balance tracing efficiency and cytotoxicity.

      Notably, regardless of whether infected cells undergo apoptosis or necrosis due to cytotoxicity, the resulting disruption of the plasma membrane severely impairs viral budding. As a result, the formation of intact, G protein-enveloped viral particles is prevented, limiting further infection of neighboring neurons.

      The latest second-generation ΔGL RV vectors (Jin et al., 2024), which lack both the G and L (viral polymerase) genes, have been shown to markedly reduce cytotoxicity. These improved tracing strategies may be explored in future zebrafish studies to further optimize labeling efficiency and cell viability.

      The issue of viral titer and volume has been addressed in the revised Discussion section (page 10).

      b) Primary starters and secondary starters: 

      Given that the trans-expression of TVA and G is widespread, there is the possibility of coexistence of starter cells from the initial infection (primary starters) and starter cells generated by rabies virus spreading from the primary starters to presynaptic neurons expressing G. This means that the labeled input cells could be a mixed population connected with either the primary or secondary starter cells.

      It would be immensely interesting if time-lapse imaging could be utilized to observe the appearance of such primary and secondary starter cells. Assuming there is a time difference between the initial appearance of these two populations, it may be possible to differentiate the input cells wired to these populations based on a similar temporal difference in their initial appearance. This approach could provide valuable insights into the dynamics of rabies virus spread and the connectivity of neural circuits.

      The reviewers suggestion is valuable. Regarding the use of Purkinje cells (PCs) as starter cells, we consider the occurrence of secondary PCs to be extremely rare. Although previous evidence suggests that PCs can form synaptic connections with one another (Chang et al., 2020), our sparse labeling strategy—typically involving fewer than 10 labeled cells— significantly reduces the likelihood of viral transmission between PC starter cells. In addition, if secondary starter PCs were frequently generated, we would expect increased tracing efficiency at 10 dpi compared to 6 dpi. However, our results show no significant difference (see Figure 2—figure supplement 1C and G). 

      Given the restricted expression of TVA and G in PCs, even if a limited number of secondary starters were generated, the labeled inputs would predominantly be granule cells (GCs), thereby preserving the cell-type identity of upstream inputs. While this raises a potential concern regarding an overestimation of the convergence index (CI). Notably, within the GC-PC circuit, individual GCs often project to multiple PCs. Consequently, a GC labeled via a secondary PC may also a bona fide presynaptic partner of the primary starter population. This overlap could mitigate the overestimation of CI. Taken together, we believe that the CI values reported in this study provide a reasonable approximation of monosynaptic connectivity.

      In scenarios where TVA and G are broadly expressed—for example, under the control of vglut2a promoter—secondary starter cells may arise frequently. In such cases, long-term time-lapse imaging in the zebrafish whole brain presents a promising strategy to distinguish primary and secondary starter cells, along with their respective input populations, based on the timing of their appearance. This approach potentially enables multi-step circuit tracing within individual animals. An alternative strategy is to use an EnvA-pseudotyped, G-competent rabies virus, which allows targeted initial infection while supporting multisynaptic propagation. When combined with temporally resolved imaging, this strategy could facilitate direct labeling of higher-order circuits and allow clear differentiation between multi-order inputs and the original starter population over time.

      In conclusion, we find this suggestion compelling and will explore these strategies in future studies to optimize and broaden the application of rabies virus-based circuit tracing.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The study by Chen, Deng et al. aims to develop an efficient viral transneuronal tracing method that allows efficient retrograde tracing in the larval zebrafish. The authors utilize pseudotyped-rabies virus that can be targeted to specific cell types using the EnvA-TvA systems. Pseudotyped rabies virus has been used extensively in rodent models and, in recent years, has begun to be developed for use in adult zebrafish. However, compared to rodents, the efficiency of the spread in adult zebrafish is very low (~one upstream neuron labeled per starter cell). Additionally, there is limited evidence of retrograde tracing with pseudotyped rabies in the larval stage, which is the stage when most functional neural imaging studies are done in the field. In this study, the authors systematically optimized several parameters of rabies tracing, including different rabies virus strains, glycoprotein types, temperatures, expression construct designs, and elimination of glial labeling. The optimal configurations developed by the authors are up to 5-10 fold higher than more typically used configurations.

      The results are solid and support the conclusions. However, the methods should be described in more detail to allow other zebrafish researchers to apply this method in their own work.

      Additionally, some findings are presented anecdotally, i.e., without quantification or sufficient detail to allow close examinations. Lastly, there is concern that the reagents created by the authors will not be easily accessible to the zebrafish community.

      (1) The titer used in each experiment was not stated. In the methods section, it is stated that aliquots are stored at 2x10e8. Is it diluted for injection? Are all of the experiments in the manuscripts with the same titer?

      We injected all three viral vectors as undiluted stock aliquots. The titer for SADdGmCherry[EnvA], CVSdG-tdTomato[EnvA], and CVSdG-mCherry-2A-Cre[EnvA]) was 2 × 10<sup>8</sup>, 2 × 10<sup>8</sup>, and 3 × 10<sup>8</sup> infectious units/mL, respectively. This has been clarified in the updated Methods section (page 12).

      (2) The age for injection is quite broad (3-5 dpf in Fig 1 and 4-6 dpf in Fig 2). Given that viral spread efficiency is usually more robust in younger animals, describing the exact injection age for each experiment is critical.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestions. For the initial experiments tracing randomly from neurons in Figure 1, the injection age was primarily 3–4 dpf, with a one-day difference. Due to the slower development of PCs, the injection age for experiments related to Figure 2,3, and 4, is mainly 5 dpf. To clarify the developmental stages at the time of injection for each experiment, we have  newly added tables (see Figure 1,2—table supplement 2) listing the number of fish used at each injection age for all experimental groups shown in Figure 1 and 2.

      (3) More details should be provided for the paired electrical stimulation-calcium imaging study. How many GC cells were tested? How many had corresponding PC cell responses? What is the response latency? For example, images of stimulated and recorded GCs and PCs should be shown.

      Yes, these are important details for the paired electrical stimulation-calcium imaging study. We stimulated 33 GCs from 32 animals and detected calcium responses in putative postsynaptic PCs in 15 cases. Among these, we successfully ablated the single GC in 11 pairs and observed a weakened calcium response in PCs following ablation (see Figure 2M). The response latency was determined as the first calcium imaging frame where ΔF/F exceeded the baseline (pre-stimulus average) by 3 times the standard deviation. Imaging was performed at 5 Hz, and as shown in Figure 2L, the calculated average response latency was 152 ± 35 ms (mean ± SEM), indicating an immediate response with calcium intensity from the first post-stimulus imaging frame consistently exceeding the threshold.

      We have added additional details to the Results (page 5), Discussion (page 9), and Methods (page 15) sections. A representative image showing both the stimulated GC and the recorded PC has been added to Figure 2 in the revised manuscript (see Figure 2K).

      (4) It is unclear how connectivity between specific PC and GC is determined for single neuron connectivity. In other images (Figure 4C), there are usually multiple starter cells and many GCs. It was not shown that the image resolution can establish clear axon dendritic contacts between cell pairs.

      In our experiments, sparse labeling typically results in 1–10 starter cells per fish. Regarding the case shown in Figure 4C (right column), only two PC starters were labeled, which simplifies the assignment of presynaptic inputs to individual PCs. Connectivity is determined based on clear axon-dendritic or axon-cell body apposition between GCs and PCs. We have accordingly added more details to the Methods (page 16) section regarding how we determined connectivity between specific PCs and GCs.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      To enable broader use of this technique, I would encourage the authors to submit their zebrafish lines, plasmids, and plasmid sequences to public repositories such as ZIRC and  Addgene. Additionally, there is no mention of how viral vectors will be shared.

      We have deposited the related zebrafish lines at CZRC (China Zebrafish Resource Center) and uploaded plasmid maps and sequences to Addgene. The viral vectors are available through BrainCase (Shenzhen, China). We have included the information in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors establish reagents and define experimental parameters useful for defining neurons retrograde to a neuron of interest.

      Strengths:

      A clever approach, careful optimization, novel reagents, and convincing data together lead to convincing conclusions.

      Weaknesses: 

      In the current version of the manuscript, the tracing results could be better centered with  respect to past work, certain methods could be presented more clearly, and other approaches worth considering.

      Appraisal/Discussion:

      Trans-neuronal tracing in the larval zebrafish preparation has lagged behind rodent models,limiting "circuit-cracking" experiments. Previous work has demonstrated that pseudotyped rabies virus-mediated tracing could work, but published data suggested that there was considerable room for optimization. The authors take a major step forward here, identifying a number of key parameters to achieve success and establishing new transgenic reagents that incorporate modern intersectional approaches. As a proof of concept, the manuscript concludes with a rough characterization of inputs to cerebellar Purkinje cells. The work will be of considerable interest to neuroscientists who use the zebrafish model.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The main limitations of the work are as follows:

      (1) The optimizations might differ for different neurons. Purkinje cells are noteworthy because they develop considerably during the time window detailed here, almost doubling in number between 7-14dpf. Presumably, connectivity follows. This sort of neurogenesis is much less common elsewhere. It would be useful to show similar results in, say, tectal neurons, which would have spatially-restricted retinal ganglion cells labelled.

      We acknowledge that Purkinje cells (PCs) undergo significant development between 7–14 dpf, which may influence synaptic connectivity and result in differences in tracing efficiency. However, all experimental conditions were standardized across groups, and the selection of starter PCs was unbiased, typically focusing on PCs in the lateral region of the CCe (corpus cerebelli) subregion, ensuring that the relative comparisons remain valid. 

      We agree that testing other neuronal populations would be valuable, as tracing efficiency is influenced by multiple factors, such as the number of endogenous inputs, synaptic maturation, and developmentally regulated synaptic strength. Tectal neurons, which receive spatially restricted retinal ganglion cell inputs, would be a suitable choice for further investigation. However, due to the various tectal cell types and the opacity of the eyeball, such studies present additional technical challenges and are beyond the scope of this paper.

      (2) The virus is delivered by means of microinjection near the cell. This is invasive and challenging for labs that dont routinely perform electrophysiology. It would be useful to know if coarser methods of viral delivery (e.g. intraventricular injection) would be successful. 

      Our protocol does not require the level of precision needed for electrophysiology. The procedure can be performed using a standard high-magnification upright (135× magnification, Nikon SMZ18) or inverted fluorescence microscope (200× magnification, Olympus IX51). The virus suspension was loaded into a glass micropipette with a ~10 µm tip diameter and directly microinjected into the target region using a micromanipulator. The procedure was comparable to embryonic microinjection in terms of precision and operational control. Notably, direct contact with the target cells is not necessary, as the injected virus solution can diffuse and effectively infect nearby cells.  

      We had attempted intraventricular injection as an alternative, but it failed to produce robust labeling, reinforcing the necessity for direct tissue injection. 

      We have now included additional methodological details in the Methods section (page 13). 

      (3) Because of the combination of transgenic lines, plasmid injection, and viral type, it is often confusing to follow exactly what is being done for a particular experiment. It would be useful to specify the transgenic background used for each experiment using standard nomenclature e.g. "Plasmids were injected into Tg(elavl3:GAL4) fish." This is particularly important for the experiments in Figure 4: it isnt clear what the background used for the sparse labels was. 

      Thank the reviewer for bringing this issue to our attention. In order to improve clarity, we have revised the figure legends to explicitly state the transgenic background, injected plasmids, and viral type used in each experiment, particularly for Figure 4. 

      (4) Plasmids should be deposited with Addgene along with maps specifying the particular "codon-optimized Tetoff" per 388. 

      We confirm that all plasmids, including those containing codon-optimized Tetoff constructs, have been uploaded to Addgene along with detailed maps.

      (5) It would be useful to know if there were more apoptotic cells after transfection -- an acridine orange or comparable assay is recommended, rather than loss of fluorescence. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion to assess apoptosis using acridine orange staining or comparable assays. We agree that such methods can provide more direct detection of apoptotic events. However, we believe that the difference in cytotoxicity is already evident in our current data: SAD-infected cells exhibit greater loss than CVSinfected cells (see Figure 3D). This is consistent with previous observations in mice, where greater toxicity of SAD compared to CVS was demonstrated using propidium iodide (PI) staining in cultured cells (Reardon et al., 2016).

      (6) Line 219-228 Hibis lab has described the subtypes of granule cells in detail already; the work should discuss the tracings with respect to previous characterizations instead of limiting that work to a citation. 

      Thanks for the reminding of this point. We have expanded the Results section (page 6) to discuss the subtypes of GCs and PCs in relation to previously reported characterizations.

      (7) "Activities" is often used when "activity" is correct. The use of English in the manuscript is, by and large, excellent, but its worth running the text through software like Grammarly to catch the occasional error. 

      We have carefully edited the manuscript using professional language editing tools to correct any grammatical issues.

      (8) The experiments in 2J-2L would be more convincing if they were performed on inferior olive inputs as well -- especially given the small size of the granule cells. 

      We acknowledge the reviewers observation that granule cells (GCs) are relatively small, which may underline the finding that, out of 33 stimulated GCs, only 15 were capable of eliciting calcium responses in putative postsynaptic PCs. However, in all 11 pairs where a single GC was successfully ablated, we observed a weakened calcium response in PCs after the ablation (see Figure 2M), suggesting our tracing approach specifically identifies synaptically coupled neurons. We have clarified this point in the revised manuscript (page 5).

      We agree that verifying the IO inputs to PCs would strengthen the validity of our findings. However, in our experiments, the probability of tracing upstream IO cells was relatively low. This may be due to the developmental immaturity of the synapse and the fact that each PC typically receives input from a single IO cell. Additionally, the deep and distant anatomical location of the IO presents technical challenges for paired electrical stimulationcalcium imaging study. To address these limitations, we are currently exploring the integration of viral tracing and optogenetics to further investigate IO-PC connectivity in future studies.

      (9) It would be useful if the manuscript discussed the efficacy of trans-synaptic labelling. What fraction of granule cell / olivary inputs to a particular Purkinje cell do the authors think their method captures?

      This is an important point for assessing the efficacy of our trans-synaptic labeling. Ideally, electron microscopy (EM) data would provide the most precise evaluation. In the absence of EM data, we estimated the number of GCs, IOs and PCs using light microscopy-based cell counting. 

      At approximately 7 dpf, we manually counted 327 ± 14 PCs and 2318 ± 70 GCs in the Tg(2×en.cpce-E1B:tdTomato-CAAX) and Tg(cbln12:GAL4FF);Tg(5×UAS:EGFP) zebrafish cerebellum, across all subregions (Va, CCe, EG, and LCa). Given the developmental increase in the number of GCs and the fact that some GCs that have exclusively ipsilateral projections, and that a single PC would not receive input from all parallel fibers, we estimate that by 10–14 dpf, a single PC receives approximately 1000– 2000 GC inputs. Under optimal tracing conditions, we observed an average of 20 labeled GC inputs per PC, yielding a capture fraction of ~1–2%. Although this represents only a subset of total inputs, it is consistent with mammalian studies (Wall et al., 2010; Callaway et al., 2015), suggesting inherent limitations of this viral labeling approach.

      For IO inputs, we counted 325 ± 26 inferior olivary neurons in Tg(elavl3:H2B-GCaMP6s) fish. A single PC likely receives input from one IO neuron, though an IO neuron may innervate multiple PCs. Accordingly, the observed capture rate for IO inputs was lower (7 out of 248 starters). 

      Further optimization is required to enhance the tracing efficiency. We have now incorporated a Discussion on this point in the revised manuscript (page 8).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      The authors present their new bioinformatic tool called TEKRABber, and use it to correlate expression between KRAB ZNFs and TEs across different brain tissues, and across species. While the aims of the authors are clear and there would be significant interest from other researchers in the field for a program that can do such correlative gene expression analysis across individual genomes and species, the presented approach and work display significant shortcomings. In the current state of the analysis pipeline, the biases and shortcomings mentioned below, for which I have seen no proof of that they are accounted for by the authors, are severely impacting the presented results and conclusions. It is therefore essential that the points below are addressed, involving significant changes in the TEKRABber progamm as well as the analysis pipeline, to prevent the identification of false positive and negative signals, that would severely affect the conclusions one can raise about the analysis. 

      Thank you very much for the insightful review of our manuscript. Since most of the comments on our revised version are not different from the comments on our first version, we repeated our previous answer, but wrote a new reply to the new concerns (please see the last two paragraphs). 

      We would also like to reiterate here that most of the critique of the reviewer concerns the performance of other tools and not TEKRABber presented in our manuscript. We consider it out of scope for this manuscript to improve other tools.

      My main concerns are provided below: 

      One important shortcoming of the biocomputational approach is that most TEs are not actually expressed, and others (Alus) are not a proxy of the activity of the TE class at all. I will explain: While specific TE classes can act as (species-specific) promoters for genes (such as LTRs) or are expressed as TE derived transcripts (LINEs, SVAs), the majority of other older TE classes do not have such behavior and are either neutral to the genome or may have some enhancer activity (as mapped in the program they refer to 'TEffectR'. A big focus is on Alus, but Alus contribute to a transcriptome in a different way too: They often become part of transcripts due to alternative splicing. As such, the presence of Alu derived transcripts is not a proxy for the expression/activity of the Alu class, but rather a result of some Alus being part of gene transcripts (see also next point). Bottom line is that the TEKRABber software/approach is heavily prone to picking up both false positives (TEs being part of transcribed loci) and false negatives (TEs not producing any transcripts at all) , which has a big implication for how reads from TEs as done in this study should be interpreted: The TE expression used to correlate the KRAB ZNF expression is simply not representing the species-specific influences of TEs where the authors are after. 

      With the strategy as described, a lot of TE expression is misinterpreted: TEs can be part of gene-derived transcripts due to alternative splicing (often happens for Alus) or as a result of the TE being present in an inefficiently spliced out intron (happens a lot) which leads to TE-derived reads as a result of that TE being part of that intron, rather than that TE being actively expressed. As a result, the data as analysed is not reliably indicating the expression of TEs (as the authors intend too) and should be filtered for any reads that are coming from the above scenarios: These reads have nothing to do with KRAB ZNF control, and are not representing actively expressed TEs and therefore should be removed. Given that from my lab's experience in brain (and other) tissues, the proportion of RNA sequencing reads that are actually derived from active TEs is a stark minority compared to reads derived from TEs that happen to be in any of the many transcribed loci, applying this filtering is expected to have a huge impact on the results and conclusions of this study. 

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for highlighting the potential issues of false positives and negatives in TE quantification. The reviewer provided valuable examples of how different TE classes, such as Alus, LTRs, LINEs, and SVAs, exhibit distinct behaviors in the genome. To our knowledge, specific tools like ERVmap (Tokuyama et al., 2018), which annotates ERVs, and LtrDetector (Joseph et al., 2019), which uses k-mer distributions to quantify LTRs, could indeed enhance precision by treating specific TE classes individually. We acknowledge that such approaches may yield more accurate results and appreciate the suggestion. 

      In our study, we used TEtranscripts (Jin et al., 2015) prior to TEKRABber. TEtranscripts applies the Expectation Maximization (EM) algorithm to assign ambiguous reads as the following steps. Uniquely mapped reads are first assigned to genes, and  reads overlapping genes and TEs are assigned to TEs only if they do not uniquely match an annotated gene. The remaining ambiguous reads are distributed based on EM iterations. While this approach may not be as specialized as the latest tools for specific TE classes, it provides a general overview of TE activity. TEtranscripts outputs subfamily-level TE expression data, which we used as input for TEKRABber to perform downstream analyses such as differential expression and correlation studies.

      We understand the importance of adapting tools to specific research objectives, including focusing on particular TE classes. TEKRABber is designed not to refine TE quantification at the mapping stage but to flexibly handle outputs from various TE quantification tools. It accepts raw TE counts as input in the form of dataframes, enabling diverse analytical pipelines. We would also like to clarify that, since the input data is transcriptomic, our primary focus is on expressed TEs, rather than the effects of non-expressed TEs in the genome. In the revised version of our manuscript, we emphasize this distinction in the discussion and provide examples of how TEKRABber can integrate with other tools to enhance specificity and accuracy.

      Another potential problem that I don't see addressed is that due to the high level of similarity of the many hundreds of KRAB ZNF genes in primates and the reads derived from them, and the inaccurate annotations of many KZNFs in non-human genomes, the expression data derived from RNA-seq datasets cannot be simply used to plot KZNF expression values, without significant work and manual curation to safeguard proper cross species ortholog-annotation: The work of Thomas and Schneider (2011) has studied this in great detail but genome-assemblies of non-human primates tend to be highly inaccurate in appointing the right ortholog of human ZNF genes. The problem becomes even bigger when RNA-sequencing reads are analyzed: RNA-sequencing reads from a human ZNF that emerged in great apes by duplication from an older parental gene (we have a decent number of those in the human genome) may be mapped to that older parental gene in Macaque genome: So, the expression of human-specific ZNF-B, that derived from the parental ZNF-A, is likely to be compared in their DESeq to the expression of ZNF-A in Macaque RNA-seq data. In other words, without a significant amount of manual curation, the DE-seq analysis is prone to lead to false comparisons which make the stategy and KRABber software approach described highly biased and unreliable. 

      There is no doubt that there are differences in expression and activity of KRAB-ZNFs and TEs repspectively that may have had important evolutionary consequences. However, because all of the network analyses in this paper rely on the analyses of RNA-seq data and the processing through the TE-KRABber software with the shortcomings and potential biases that I mentioned above, I need to emphasize that the results and conclusions are likely to be significantly different if the appropriate measures are taken to get more accurate and curated TE and KRAB ZNF expression data. 

      We thank the reviewer for raising the important issue of accurately annotating the expanded repertoire of KRAB-ZNFs in primates, particularly the challenges of cross-species orthology and potential biases in RNA-seq data analysis. Indeed, we have also addressed this challenge in some of our previous papers (Nowick et al., 2010, Nowick et al., 2011 and Jovanovic et al., 2021).

      In the revised manuscript, we include more details about our two-step strategy to ensure accurate KRAB-ZNF ortholog assignments. First, we employed the Gene Order Conservation (GOC) score from Ensembl BioMart as a primary filter, selecting only one-to-one orthologs with a GOC score above 75% across primates. This threshold, recommended in Ensembl’s ortholog quality control guidelines, ensures high-confidence orthology relationships.(http://www.ensembl.org/info/genome/compara/Ortholog_qc_manual.html#goc).

      Second, we incorporated data from Jovanovic et al. (2021), which independently validated KRAB-ZNF orthologs across 27 primate genomes. This additional layer of validation allowed us to refine our dataset, resulting in the identification of 337 orthologous KRAB-ZNFs for differential expression analysis (Figure S2).

      We acknowledge that different annotation methods or criteria may for some genes yield variations in the identified orthologs. However, we believe that this combination provides a robust starting point for addressing the challenges raised, while we remain open to additional refinements in future analyses.

      Finally, there are some minor but important notes I want to share:

      The association with certain variations in ZNF genes with neurological disorders such as AD, as reported in the introduction is not entirely convincing without further functional support. Such associations could be merely happen by chance, given the high number of ZNF genes in the human genome and the high chance that variations in these loci happen associate with certatin disease associated traits. So using these associations as an argument that changes in TEs and KRAB ZNF networks are important for diseases like AD should be used with much more caution. 

      We fully acknowledge the concern that, given the large number of KRAB-ZNFs and their inherent variability, some associations with AD or other neurological disorders could occur by chance. This highlights the importance of additional functional studies to validate the causal role of KRAB-ZNF and TE interactions in disease contexts. While previous studies have indeed analyzed KRAB-ZNF and TE expression in human brain tissues, our study seeks to expand on this foundation by incorporating interspecies comparisons across primates. This approach enabled us to identify TE:KRAB-ZNF pairs that are uniquely present in healthy human brains, which may provide insights into their potential evolutionary significance and relevance to diseases like AD.

      In addition to analyzing RNA-seq data (GSE127898 and syn5550404), we have cross-validated our findings using ChIP-exo data for 159 KRAB-ZNF proteins and their TE binding regions in humans (Imbeault et al., 2017). This allowed us to identify specific binding events between KRAB-ZNF and TE pairs, providing further support for the observed associations. We agree with the reviewer that additional experimental validations, such as functional studies, are critical to further establish the role of KRAB-ZNF and TE networks in AD. We hope that future research can build upon our findings to explore these associations in greater detail.

      There is a number of papers where KRAB ZNF and TE expression are analysed in parallel in human brain tissues. So the novelty of that aspect of the presented study may be limited. 

      We agree with the reviewer that many studies have examined the expression levels of KRAB-ZNFs and TEs in developing human brain tissues (Farmiloe et al., 2020; Turelli et al., 2020; Playfoot et al., 2021, among others). However, the novelty of our study lies in comparing KRAB-ZNF and TE expression across primate species, as well as in adult human brain tissues from both control individuals and those with Alzheimer’s disease. To our knowledge, no previous study has analyzed these data in this context. We therefore believe that our results will be of interest to evolutionary biologists and neurobiologists focusing on Alzheimer’s disease.

      Additional note after reviewing the revised version of the manuscript: 

      After reviewing the revised version of the manuscript, my criticism and concerns with this study are still evenly high and unchanged. To clarify, the revised version did not differ in essence from the original version; it seems that unfortunately, no efforts were taken to address the concerns raised on the original version of the manuscript, the results section as well as the discussion section are virtually unchanged.

      We regret that this reviewer was not satisfied with our changes. In fact, many of the points raised by this reviewer are important, but concern weaknesses of other tools. In our opinion, validating other tools would be out of scope for this paper. We want to emphasize that TEKRABber is not a quantification tool for sequencing data, but a software for comparative analysis across species. We provided a detailed answer to the reviewer and readers can refer to that answer in the public review above for further information.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The authors present their new bioinformatic tool called TEKRABber, and use it to correlate expression between KRAB ZNFs and TEs across different brain tissues, and across species. While the aims of the authors are clear and there would be significant interest from other researchers in the field for a program that can do such correlative gene expression analysis across individual genomes and species, the presented approach and work display significant shortcomings. In the current state of the analysis pipeline, the biases and shortcomings mentioned below, for which I have seen no proof that they are accounted for by the authors, are severely impacting the presented results and conclusions. It is therefore essential that the points below are addressed, involving significant changes in the TEKRABber program as well as the analysis pipeline, to prevent the identification of false positive and negative signals, that would severely affect the conclusions one can raise about the analysis.

      Thank you very much for the insightful review of our manuscript.

      My main concerns are provided below:

      (1) One important shortcoming of the biocomputational approach is that most TEs are not actually expressed, and others (Alus) are not a proxy of the activity of the TE class at all. I will explain: While specific TE classes can act as (species-specific) promoters for genes (such as LTRs) or are expressed as TE derived transcripts (LINEs, SVAs), the majority of other older TE classes do not have such behavior and are either neutral to the genome or may have some enhancer activity (as mapped in the program they refer to 'TEffectR'. A big focus is on Alus, but Alus contribute to a transcriptome in a different way too: They often become part of transcripts due to alternative splicing. As such, the presence of Alu derived transcripts is not a proxy for the expression/activity of the Alu class, but rather a result of some Alus being part of gene transcripts (see also next point). The bottom line is that the TEKRABber software/approach is heavily prone to picking up both false positives (TEs being part of transcribed loci) and false negatives (TEs not producing any transcripts at all), which has a big implication for how reads from TEs as done in this study should be interpreted: The TE expression used to correlate the KRAB ZNF expression is simply not representing the species-specific influences of TEs where the authors are after.

      With the strategy as described, a lot of TE expression is misinterpreted: TEs can be part of gene-derived transcripts due to alternative splicing (often happens for Alus) or as a result of the TE being present in an inefficiently spliced out intron (happens a lot) which leads to TE-derived reads as a result of that TE being part of that intron, rather than that TE being actively expressed. As a result, the data as analysed is not reliably indicating the expression of TEs (as the authors intend to) and should be filtered for any reads that are coming from the above scenarios: These reads have nothing to do with KRAB ZNF control, and are not representing actively expressed TEs and therefore should be removed. Given that from my lab's experience in the brain (and other) tissues, the proportion of RNA sequencing reads that are actually derived from active TEs is a stark minority compared to reads derived from TEs that happen to be in any of the many transcribed loci, applying this filtering is expected to have a huge impact on the results and conclusions of this study.

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for highlighting the potential issues of false positives and negatives in TE quantification. The reviewer provided valuable examples of how different TE classes, such as Alus, LTRs, LINEs, and SVAs, exhibit distinct behaviors in the genome. To our knowledge, specific tools like ERVmap (Tokuyama et al., 2018), which annotates ERVs, and LtrDetector (Joseph et al., 2019), which uses k-mer distributions to quantify LTRs, could indeed enhance precision by treating specific TE classes individually. We acknowledge that such approaches may yield more accurate results and appreciate the suggestion. 

      In our study, we used TEtranscripts (Jin et al., 2015) prior to TEKRABber. TEtranscripts applies the Expectation Maximization (EM) algorithm to assign ambiguous reads as the following steps. Uniquely mapped reads are first assigned to genes, and  reads overlapping genes and TEs are assigned to TEs only if they do not uniquely match an annotated gene. The remaining ambiguous reads are distributed based on EM iterations. While this approach may not be as specialized as the latest tools for specific TE classes, it provides a general overview of TE activity. TEtranscripts outputs subfamily-level TE expression data, which we used as input for TEKRABber to perform downstream analyses such as differential expression and correlation studies.

      We understand the importance of adapting tools to specific research objectives, including focusing on particular TE classes. TEKRABber is designed not to refine TE quantification at the mapping stage but to flexibly handle outputs from various TE quantification tools. It accepts raw TE counts as input in the form of dataframes, enabling diverse analytical pipelines. We would also like to clarify that, since the input data is transcriptiomic, our primary focus is on expressed TEs, rather than the effects of non-expressed TEs in the genome. In the revised version of our manuscript, we emphasize this distinction in the discussion and provide examples of how TEKRABber can integrate with other tools to enhance specificity and accuracy.

      (2) Another potential problem that I don't see addressed is that due to the high level of similarity of the many hundreds of KRAB ZNF genes in primates and the reads derived from them, and the inaccurate annotations of many KZNFs in non-human genomes, the expression data derived from RNA-seq datasets cannot be simply used to plot KZNF expression values, without significant work and manual curation to safeguard proper cross species ortholog-annotation: The work of Thomas and Schneider (2011) has studied this in great detail but genome-assemblies of non-human primates tend to be highly inaccurate in appointing the right ortholog of human ZNF genes. The problem becomes even bigger when RNA-sequencing reads are analyzed: RNA-sequencing reads from a human ZNF that emerged in great apes by duplication from an older parental gene (we have a decent number of those in the human genome) may be mapped to that older parental gene in Macaque genome: So, the expression of human-specific ZNF-B, that derived from the parental ZNF-A, is likely to be compared in their DESeq to the expression of ZNF-A in Macaque RNA-seq data. In other words, without a significant amount of manual curation, the DE-seq analysis is prone to lead to false comparisons which make the strategy and KRABber software approach described highly biased and unreliable.

      There is no doubt that there are differences in expression and activity of KRAB-ZNFs and TEs respectively that may have had important evolutionary consequences. However, because all of the network analyses in this paper rely on the analyses of RNA-seq data and the processing through the TE-KRABber software with the shortcomings and potential biases that I mentioned above, I need to emphasize that the results and conclusions are likely to be significantly different if the appropriate measures are taken to get more accurate and curated TE and KRAB ZNF expression data.

      We thank the reviewer for raising the important issue of accurately annotating the expanded repertoire of KRAB-ZNFs in primates, particularly the challenges of cross-species orthology and potential biases in RNA-seq data analysis. Indeed, we have also addressed this challenge in some of our previous papers (Nowick et al., 2010, Nowick et al., 2011 and Jovanovic et al., 2021).

      In the revised manuscript, we include more details about our two-step strategy to ensure accurate KRAB-ZNF ortholog assignments. First, we employed the Gene Order Conservation (GOC) score from Ensembl BioMart as a primary filter, selecting only one-to-one orthologs with a GOC score above 75% across primates. This threshold, recommended in Ensembl’s ortholog quality control guidelines, ensures high-confidence orthology relationships. (http://www.ensembl.org/info/genome/compara/Ortholog_qc_manual.html#goc).

      Second, we incorporated data from Jovanovic et al. (2021), which independently validated KRAB-ZNF orthologs across 27 primate genomes. This additional layer of validation allowed us to refine our dataset, resulting in the identification of 337 orthologous KRAB-ZNFs for differential expression analysis (Figure S2).

      We acknowledge that different annotation methods or criteria may for some genes yield variations in the identified orthologs. However, we believe that this combination provides a robust starting point for addressing the challenges raised, while we remain open to additional refinements in future analyses.

      (3) The association with certain variations in ZNF genes with neurological disorders such as AD, as reported in the introduction is not entirely convincing without further functional support. Such associations could merely happen by chance, given the high number of ZNF genes in the human genome and the high chance that variations in these loci happen to associate with certain disease-associated traits. So using these associations as an argument that changes in TEs and KRAB ZNF networks are important for diseases like AD should be used with much more caution.

      There are a number of papers where KRAB ZNF and TE expression are analysed in parallel in human brain tissues. So the novelty of that aspect of the presented study may be limited.

      We fully acknowledge the concern that, given the large number of KRAB-ZNFs and their inherent variability, some associations with AD or other neurological disorders could occur by chance. This highlights the importance of additional functional studies to validate the causal role of KRAB-ZNF and TE interactions in disease contexts. While previous studies have indeed analyzed KRAB-ZNF and TE expression in human brain tissues, our study seeks to expand on this foundation by incorporating interspecies comparisons across primates. This approach enabled us to identify TE:KRAB-ZNF pairs that are uniquely present in healthy human brains, which may provide insights into their potential evolutionary significance and relevance to diseases like AD.

      In addition to analyzing RNA-seq data (GSE127898 and syn5550404), we have cross-validated our findings using ChIP-exo data for 159 KRAB-ZNF proteins and their TE binding regions in humans (Imbeault et al., 2017). This allowed us to identify specific binding events between KRAB-ZNF and TE pairs, providing further support for the observed associations. We agree with the reviewer that additional experimental validations, such as functional studies, are critical to further establish the role of KRAB-ZNF and TE networks in AD. We hope that future research can build upon our findings to explore these associations in greater detail.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      It is essential before this work can be considered for publication, that the points above are addressed, involving significant changes in the TEKRABber program as well as the analysis pipeline, to prevent the identification of false positive and negative signals, that would severely affect the conclusions one can raise about the analysis.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s insightful recommendations and constructive feedback. Each specific point has been carefully addressed in detail in the public reviews section above.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review)

      Summary:

      The aim was to decipher the regulatory networks of KRAB-ZNFs and TEs that have changed during human brain evolution and in Alzheimer's disease.

      Strengths:

      This solid study presents a valuable analysis and successfully confirms previous assumptions, but also goes beyond the current state of the art.

      Weaknesses:

      The design of the analysis needs to be slightly modified and a more in-depth analysis of the positive correlation cases would be beneficial. Some of the conclusions need to be reinterpreted.

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for the thoughtful summary, positive evaluation of our study, and constructive feedback. We appreciate the recognition of the strengths in our analysis and the valuable suggestions for improving its design and interpretation. 

      We would like to briefly comment on the suggested modifications to the design here and will provide a detailed point-by-point review later with our revised manuscript. 

      The reviewer recommended considering a more recent timepoint, such as less than 25 million years ago (mya), to define the "evolutionary young group" of KRAB-ZNF genes and TEs when discussing the arms-race theory. This is indeed a valuable perspective, as the TE repressing functions by KRAB-ZNF proteins  may have evolved more recently than the split between Old World Monkeys (OWM) and New World Monkeys (NWM) at 44.2 mya we used. 

      Our rationale for selecting 44.2 mya is based on certain primate-specific TEs such as the Alu subfamilies, which emerged after the rise of Simiiformes and have been used in phylogenetic studies (Xing et al., 2007 and Williams et al., 2010). This timeframe allowed us to investigate the potential co-evolution of KRAB-ZNFs and TEs in species that emerged after the OWM-NWM split (e.g., humans, chimpanzees, bonobos, and macaques used for this study). However, focusing only on KRAB-ZNFs and TEs younger than 25 million years would limit the analysis to just 9 KRAB-ZNFs and 92 TEs expressed in our datasets. While we will not conduct a reanalysis using this more recent timepoint, we will integrate the recommendation into the discussion section of the revised manuscript. 

      Furthermore, we greatly appreciate the reviewer's detailed insights and suggestions for refining specific descriptions and interpretations in our manuscript. We will address these points in the revised version to ensure the content is presented with greater precision and clarity.

      Once again, we thank both reviewers for their valuable feedback, which provides significant input for strengthening our study.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      We thank the reviewer for the very insightful comments, which helped a lot in our interpretation and discussion of our results and in improving some of our statements.

      The present study seeks to uncover how the repression of transposable elements (TEs) by rapidly evolving KRAB-ZNF genes, which are known for their role in TE suppression, may influence human brain evolution and contribute to Alzheimer's disease (AD). Utilizing their previously developed tool, TEKRABber, the researchers analyze transcriptome datasets from the brains of four species of Old World Monkeys (OWM) alongside samples from healthy human individuals and AD patients.

      Through bipartite network analysis, they identify KRAB-ZNF/Alu-TE interactions as the most negatively correlated in the network, highlighting the repression of Alu elements by KRAB-ZNF proteins. In AD patient samples, they observe a reduction in a subnetwork comprising 21 interactions within an Alu TE module. These findings are consistent with earlier evidence that: (1) KRAB-ZNFs are involved in suppressing evolutionarily young Alu TEs; and (2) specific Alu elements have been reported to be deregulated in AD. The study also validates previous experimental ChIP-exo data on KRAB-ZNF proteins obtained in a different cell type (Imbeault et al., 2017).

      As a novely, the study identifies a human-specific amino acid variation in ZNF528, which directly contacts DNA nucleotides, showing signs of positive selection in humans and several human-specific TE interactions.

      Interestingly, in addition to the negative links, the researchers observed predominantly positive connections with other TEs, suggesting that while their approach is consistent with some previous observations, the authors conclude that it provides limited support for the 'genetic arms race' hypothesis.

      The reviewer is a specialist in TE and evolutionary research.

      Major issues:

      The study demonstrates the usefulness of the TEKRABber tool, which can support and successfully validate previous observations. However, there are several misconceptions and problems with the interpretation of the results.

      KRAB-ZNF proteins in repressing TEs in vertebrates  In the Abstract: "In vertebrates, some KRAB-ZNF proteins repress TEs, offering genomic protection."

      Although some KRAB-ZNF proteins exist in vertebrates, their TE-suppression role is not as prominent or specialized as it is in mammals, where it serves as a key defense mechanism against the mobilization of TEs.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s clarification regarding the role of KRAB-ZNF proteins in vertebrates. To improve accuracy and precision, we have revised the wording to specify that this mechanism is primarily observed in mammals rather than vertebrates.

      The definition of young and old

      The study considers the evolutionary age of young ({less than or equal to} 44.2 mya) and old(> 44.2 mya). This is the time of the Old World Monkey (OWM) and New World Monkey (NWM) split. Importantly, however, the KRAB-ZNF / KAP1 suppression system primarily suppresses evolutionarily younger TEs (< 25 MY old). These TEs are relatively new additions to the genome, i.e. they are specific to certain lineages (such as primates or hominins) and are more likely to be actively transcribed (and recognized as foreign by innate immunity) or have residual activity upon transposition. Examples include certain subfamilies of LINE-1, Alu (Y, S, less effective for J), SVA and younger human endogenous retroviruses (HERVs) such as HERV-K. The KRAB-ZNF / KAP1 system therefore focuses primarily on TEs that have evolved more recently in primates, in the last few million years (within the last 25 million years). Older TEs are controlled by broader epigenetic mechanisms such as DNA methylation, histone modifications, etc. Therefore, the age ({less than or equal to} 44.2 mya) is not suitable to define it as young.

      In this context, the specific TEs of the Simiiformes cannot be considered as 'recently evolved' (in the Abstract). The Simiiformes contain both OWM and NWM. Notably, the study includes four species, all of which belong to the OWMs.

      The 'genetic arms race' theory

      Unfortunately, the problematic definition of young and old could also explain why the authors conclude that their data only weakly support the 'genetic arms race' hypothesis.

      The KRAB-ZNF proteins evolve rapidly, similar to TEs, which raises the 'genetic arms race' hypothesis. This hypothesis refers to the constant evolutionary struggle between organisms and TEs. TEs constantly evolve to overcome host defences, while host genomes develop mechanisms to suppress these potentially harmful elements. Indeed, in mammals, an important example is the KRAB-ZNF/TE interaction. The KRAB-ZNF proteins rapidly evolve to target specific TEs, creating a 'genetic arms race' in which each side - TEs and the KRAB-ZNF/KAP1 (alias TRIM28) repressor complex - drives the evolution of the other in response to adaptive pressure. Importantly, the 'genetic arms race' hypothesis describes the evolutionary process that occurs between TE and host when the TE is deleterious. Again, this includes the young TEs (< 25 MY old) with residual transposition activity or those that actively transcribed and exacerbate cellular stress and inflammatory responses. Approximately 25 million years ago, the superfamilies Hominoidea (apes) and Cercopithecoidea (Old World monkeys, I.e. macaque) split.

      Just to clarify, our initial study aim was to examine whether TEs exhibit any evolutionary relationships with KRAB-ZNFs across the four studied species (human, chimpanzee, bonobo, and macaque). For investigating the arms-race hypothesis, we really appreciate the reviewer suggesting a more recent time point, such as less than 25 million years ago (mya), to define the "evolutionary young group" of TEs and KRAB-ZNF genes. This is indeed a valuable recommendation, as 25 mya marks the emergence of Hominoidea (Figure 2C in the manuscript), making it a meaningful reference point for studying recently evolved KRAB-ZNFs and TEs. However, restricting the analysis to elements younger than 25 mya would reduce the dataset to only 9 KRAB-ZNFs and 92 TEs. Nevertheless, we provide here our results for those elements in Table S7:

      We observed that among the correlations in the < 25 mya subset, negative correlations (7) outnumbered positive ones (2). However, these correlations were derived from only 3 out of 9 KRAB-ZNFs and 9 out of 92 TE subfamilies. Therefore, based on our data, while the < 25 mya group shows a higher proportion of negative correlations, the sample size is too limited to derive networks or draw robust conclusions in our analysis, especially when compared to our original evolutionary age threshold of 44.2 mya. For this reason, we chose not to reanalyze the data but rather to acknowledge that our current definition of “young” may not be optimal for testing the arms-race model in humans. While previous studies (Jacobs et al., 2014; Bruno et al., 2019; Zuo et al., 2023) have explored relevant KRAB-ZNF and TE interactions, our review of the KRAB-ZNFs and TEs highlighted in those works suggests that a specific focus on elements <25 mya has not been a primary emphasis. 

      "our findings only weakly support the arms-race hypothesis. Firstly, we noted that young TEs exhibit lower expression levels than old TEs (Figure 2D and 5B), which might not be expected if they had recently escaped repression". - This is a misinterpretation. These old TEs are no longer harmful. This is not the case of the 'genetic arms race'.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s comments, which have helped us refine our interpretation to prevent potential misunderstandings. Our initial expectation, based on the arms-race hypothesis, was that young TEs would exhibit higher expression levels due to a recent escape from repression, while young KRAB-ZNFs would show increased expression as a counter-adaptive response. However, our findings indicate that both young TEs and young KRAB-ZNFs exhibit lower expression levels. This observation does not align with the classical arms-race model, which typically predicts an ongoing cycle of adaptive upregulation. We rephrase the sentences in our discussion to hopefully make our idea more clear. In addition, we added the notion that older TEs might not be harmful anymore, which we agree with.

      "Additionally, some young TEs were also negatively correlated with old KRAB-ZNF genes, leading to weak assortativity regarding age inference, which would also not be in line with the arms-race idea."

      This is not a contradiction, as an old KRAB-ZNF gene could be 'reactivated' to protect against young TEs. (It might be cheaper for the host than developing a brand new KRAB-ZNF gene.

      We agree with the reviewer's point that older KRAB-ZNFs may be reactivated to suppress young TEs, potentially as a more cost-effective evolutionary strategy than the emergence of entirely new KRAB-ZNFs. We have incorporated this perspective into the revised manuscript to provide a more detailed discussion of our findings.

      TEs remain active

      In the abstract: "Notably, KRAB-ZNF genes evolve rapidly and exhibit diverse expression patterns in primate brains, where TEs remain active."

      This is not precise. TEs are not generally remain active in the brain. It is only the autonomous LINE-1 (young) and non-autonomous Alu (young) and SVA (young) elements that can be mobilized by LINE-1. In addition, the evolutionary young HERV-K is recognized as foreign and alerts the innate immune system (DOI: 10.1172/jci.insight.131093 ) and is a target of the KRAB-ZNF/KAP1 suppression system.

      In the abstract: "Evidence indicates that transposable elements (TEs) can contribute to the evolution of new traits, despite often being considered deleterious."

      Oversimplification: The harmful and repurposed TEs are washed together.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s detailed suggestions for improving the precision of our abstract. While we previously mentioned LINE-1 and Alu elements in the introduction, we now explicitly specify in the abstract that only certain TE subfamilies, such as autonomous LINE-1 and non-autonomous Alu and SVA elements, remain active in the primate brain. Additionally, we have refined the phrasing regarding the role of TEs in evolution to clearly distinguish between their deleterious effects and their potential for functional repurposing. These clarifications have been incorporated into the revised abstract to ensure greater accuracy and nuance.

      Positive links

      "The high number of positive correlations might be surprising, given that KRAB-ZNFs are considered to repress TEs."

      Based on the above, it is not surprising that negative associations are only found with young (< 25 my) TEs. In fact, the relationship between old KRAB-ZNF proteins and old (non-damaging) TEs could be neutral/positive. The case of ZNF528 could be a valuable example of this.

      We thank the reviewer for providing this plausible interpretation and added it to the manuscript.

      "276 TE:KRAB-ZNF with positive correlations in humans were negatively correlated in bonobos"  It would be important to characterise the positive correlations in more detail. Could it be that the old KRAB-ZNF proteins lost their ability to recruit KAP1/TRIM28? Demonstrate it.

      The strategy of developing sequence-specific DNA recognition domains that can specifically recognise TEs is expensive for the host. Recent studies suggest that when the TE is no longer harmful, these proteins/connections can be occasionally repurposed. The repurposed function would probably differ from the original suppressive function.

      In my opinion, the TEKRABber tool could be useful in identifying co-option events:

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion regarding the characterization of positive correlations. While it is possible that some old KRAB-ZNF proteins have lost their ability to recruit KAP1/TRIM28, we cannot conclude this definitively for all cases. To address this, we examined ChIP-exo data from Imbeault et al. (2017) (Accession: GSE78099) and analyzed the overlap of binding sites between KRAB-ZNFs, KAP1/TRIM28, and RepeatMasker-annotated TEs. Our results indicate that some old KRAB-ZNFs still exhibit binding overlap with KAP1 at TE regions, suggesting that their repressive function may be at least partially retained (Author response image 1).

      Author response image 1.<br /> Overlap of KAP1, Zinc finger proteins, and RepeatMasker annotation. Here we detect the overlap of ChIP-exo binding events using KAP1/TRIM28, with KRAB-ZNF genes (one at a time) and RepeatMasker annotation. (115 old and 58 young KRAB-ZNFs, Mann-Whitney, p<0.01).<br />

      Minor

      "Lead poisoning causes lead ions to compete with zinc ions in zinc finger proteins, affecting proteins such as DNMT1, which are related to the progression of AD (Ordemann and Austin 2016)."

      Not precise: While DNMT1 does contain zinc-binding domains, it is not categorized as a zinc finger protein.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insight regarding the classification of DNMT1. After careful consideration, we have removed this sentence from the introduction to maintain focus on KRAB zinc finger proteins.

      Definition of TEs

      "There were 324 KRAB-ZNFs and 895 TEs expressed in Primate Brain Data." Define it more precisely. It is not clear, what the authors mean by TEs: Are these TE families, subfamilies? Provide information on copy numbers of each in the analysed four species.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion to clarify our definition of TEs. To improve precision, we have specified that the analysis was conducted at the subfamily level. Additionally, we have provided the copy numbers of TEs for the four analyzed species in Table S4.

      Occupancy of TEs in the genome

      "TEs comprise (i) one third to one half of the mammalian genome and are (ii) not randomly distributed..."

      (i) The most accepted number is 45%. However, some more recent reports estimate over 50%, thus the one third is an underestimation.

      (ii) Not randomly distributed among the mammalian species?

      (i) We thank the reviewer for pointing out that our statement about the abundance of TEs was outdated. We have updated the estimate to reflect that TEs can occupy more than half of the genome, based on recent publications.

      (ii) We acknowledge the reviewer’s concern regarding the distribution of TEs. Although TEs are interspersed throughout the genome, their insertion sites are not entirely random, as they tend to exhibit preferences for certain genomic regions. To clarify this, we have revised the wording in the paragraph accordingly.

      We would like to express our sincere gratitude to both reviewers for their insightful feedback, which has been instrumental in enhancing the quality of our study.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Ana Lapao et al. investigated the roles of Rab27 effector SYTL5 in cellular membrane trafficking pathways. The authors found that SYTL5 localizes to mitochondria in a Rab27A-dependent manner. They demonstrated that SYTL5-Rab27A positive vesicles containing mitochondrial material are formed under hypoxic conditions, thus they speculate that SYTL5 and Rab27A play roles in mitophagy. They also found that both SYTL5 and Rab27A are important for normal mitochondrial respiration. Cells lacking SYTL5 undergo a shift from mitochondrial oxygen consumption to glycolysis which is a common process known as the Warburg effect in cancer cells. Based on the cancer patient database, the author noticed that low SYTL5 expression is related to reduced survival for adrenocortical carcinoma patients, indicating SYTL5 could be a negative regulator of the Warburg effect and potentially tumorigenesis.

      Strengths:

      The authors take advantage of multiple techniques and novel methods to perform the experiments.

      (1) Live-cell imaging revealed that stably inducible expression of SYTL5 co-localized with filamentous structures positive for mitochondria. This result was further confirmed by using correlative light and EM (CLEM) analysis and western blotting from purified mitochondrial fraction.

      (2) In order to investigate whether SYTL5 and Rab27A are required for mitophagy in hypoxic conditions, two established mitophagy reporter U2OS cell lines were used to analyze the autophagic flux.

      Weaknesses:

      This study revealed a potential function of SYTL5 in mitophagy and mitochondrial metabolism. However, the mechanistic evidence that establishes the relationship between SYTL5/Rab27A and mitophagy is insufficient. The involvement of SYTL5 in ACC needs more investigation. Furthermore, images and results supporting the major conclusions need to be improved.

      We thank the reviewer for their constructive comments. We agree that a complete understanding of the mechanism by which SYTL5 and Rab27A are recruited to the mitochondria and subsequently involved in mitophagy requires further investigation. Here, we have shown that SYTL5 recruitment to the mitochondria requires both its lipid-binding C2 domains and the Rab27A-binding SHD domain (Figure 1G-H). This implies a coincidence detection mechanism for mitochondrial localisation of SYTL5.  Additionally, we find that mitochondrial recruitment of SYTL5 is dependent on the GTPase activity and mitochondrial localisation of Rab27A (Figure 2D-E). We also identified proteins linked to the cellular response to oxidative stress, reactive oxygen species metabolic process, regulation of mitochondrion organisation and protein insertion into mitochondrial membrane to be enriched in the SYTL5 interactome (Figure 3A and C).

      However, less details regarding the mitochondrial localisation of Rab27A are understood. To investigate this, we have now performed a mass spectrometry analysis to identify the interactome of Rab27A (see Author response table 1 below,). U2OS cells with stable expression of mScarlet-Rab27A or mScarlet only, were subjected to immunoprecipitation, followed by MS analysis.  Of the 32 significant Rab27A-interacting hits (compared to control), two of the hits are located in the inner mitochondrial membrane (IMM); ATP synthase F(1) complex subunit alpha (P25705), and mitochondrial very long-chain specific acyl-CoA dehydrogenase (VLCAD)(P49748). However, as these IMM proteins are not likely involved in mitochondrial recruitment of Rab27A, observed under basal conditions, we choose not to include these data in the manuscript. 

      It is known that other RAB proteins are recruited to the mitochondria. During parkin-mediated mitophagy, RABGEF1 (a guanine nucleotide exchange factor) is recruited through its ubiquitin-binding domain and directs mitochondrial localisation of RAB5, which subsequently leads to recruitment of RAB7 by the MON1/CCZ1 complex[1]. As already mentioned in the discussion (p. 12), ubiquitination of the Rab27A GTPase activating protein alpha (TBC1D10A) is reduced in the brain of Parkin KO mouse compared to controls[35], suggesting a possible connection of Rab27A with regulatory mechanisms that are linked with mitochondrial damage and dysfunction. While this an interesting avenue to explore, in this paper we will not follow up further on the mechanism of mitochondrial recruitment of Rab27A. 

      Author response table 1.

      Rab27A interactome. Proteins co-immunoprecipitated with mScarlet-Rab27A vs mScarlet expressing control. The data show average of three replicates. 

      To investigate the role of SYTL5 in the context of ACC, we acquired the NCI-H295R cell line isolated from the adrenal gland of an adrenal cancer patient. The cells were cultured as recommended from ATCC using DMEM/F-12 supplemented with NuSerum and ITS +premix. It is important to note that the H295R cells were adapted to grow as an adherent monolayer from the H295 cell line which grows in suspension. However, there can still be many viable H295R cells in the media. 

      We attempted to conduct OCR and ECAR measurements using the Seahorse XF upon knockdown of SYTL5 and/or Rab27A in H295R cells. For these assays, it is essential that the cells be seeded in a monolayer at 70-90% confluency with no cell clusters[4]. Poor adhesion of the cells can cause inaccurate measurements by the analyser. Unfortunately, the results between the five replicates we carried out were highly inconsistent, the same knockdown produced trends in opposite directions in different replicates. This is likely due to problems with seeding the cells. Despite our best efforts to optimise seeding number, and pre-coating the plate with poly-D-lysine[5] we observed poor attachment of cells and inability to form a monolayer. 

      To study the localisation of SYTL5 and Rab27A in an ACC model, we transduced the H295R cells with lentiviral particles to overexpress pLVX-SV40-mScarlet-I-Rab27A and pLVX-CMV-SYTL5-EGFP-3xFLAG. Again, this proved unsuccessful after numerous attempts at optimising transduction. 

      These issues limited our investigation into the role of SYTL5 in ACC to the cortisol assay (Supplementary Figure 6). For this the H295R cells were an appropriate model as they are able to produce an array of adrenal cortex steroids[6] including cortisol[7]. In this assay, measurements are taken from cell culture supernatants, so the confluency of the cells does not prevent consistent results as the cortisol concentration was normalised to total protein per sample. With this assay we were able to rule out a role for SYTL5 and Rab27A in the secretion of cortisol.  

      Another consideration when investigating the involvement of SYTL5 in ACC, is that in general ACC cells should have a low expression of SYTL5 as is seen from the patient expression data (Figure 6B).

      The reviewer also writes “Furthermore, images and results supporting the major conclusions need to be improved.”. We have tried several times, without success, to generate U2OS cells with CRISPR/Cas9-mediated C-terminal tagging of endogenous SYTL5 with mNeonGreen, using an approach that has been successfully implemented in the lab for other genes. This is likely due to a lack of suitable sgRNAs targeting the C-terminal region of SYTL5, which have a low predicted efficiency score and a large number of predicted off-target sites in the human genome including several other gene exons and introns (see Author response image 2). 

      We have also included new data (Supplementary Figure 4B) showing that some of the hypoxia-induced SYTL5-Rab27A-positive vesicles stain positive for the autophagy markers p62 and LC3B when inhibiting lysosomal degradation, further strengthening our data that SYTL5 and Rab27A function as positive regulators of mitophagy.  

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary:

      The authors provide convincing evidence that Rab27 and STYL5 work together to regulate mitochondrial activity and homeostasis.

      Strengths:

      The development of models that allow the function to be dissected, and the rigorous approach and testing of mitochondrial activity.

      Weaknesses:

      There may be unknown redundancies in both pathways in which Rab27 and SYTL5 are working which could confound the interpretation of the results.

      Suggestions for revision:

      Given that Rab27A and SYTL5 are members of protein families it would be important to exclude any possible functional redundancies coming from Rab27B expression or one of the other SYTL family members. For Rab27 this would be straightforward to test in the assays shown in Figure 4 and Supplementary Figure 5. For SYTL5 it might be sufficient to include some discussion about this possibility.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the potential redundancy issue for Rab27A and SYTL5. There are multiple studies demonstrating the redundancy between Rab27A and Rab27B. For example, in a study of the disease Griscelli syndrome, caused by Rab27A loss of function, expression of either Rab27A or Rab27B rescues the healthy phenotype indicating redundancy[8]. This redundancy however applies to certain function and cell types. In fact, in a study regarding hair growth, knockdown of Rab27B had the opposite effect to knockdown of Rab27A[9].

      In this paper, we conducted all assays in U2OS cells, in which the expression of Rab27B is very low. Human Protein Atlas reports expression of 0.5nTPM for Rab27B, compared to 18.4nTPM for Rab27A. We also observed this low level of expression of Rab27B compared to Rab27A by qPCR in U2OS cells. Therefore, there would be very little endogenous Rab27B expression in cells depleted of Rab27A (with siRNA or KO). In line with this, Rab27B peptides were not detected in our SYTL5 interactome MS data (Table 1 in paper). Moreover, as Rab27A depletion inhibits mitochondrial recruitment of SYTL5 and mitophagy, it is not likely that Rab27B provides a functional redundancy. It is possible that Rab27B overexpression could rescue mitochondrial localisation of SYTL5 in Rab27A KO cells, but this was not tested as we do not have any evidence for a role of Rab27B in these cells. Taken together, we believe our data imply that Rab27B is very unlikely to provide any functional redundancy to Rab27A in our experiments. 

      For the SYTL family, all five members are Rab27 effectors, binding to Rab27 through their SHD domain. Together with Rab27, all SYTL’s have been implicated in exocytosis in different cell types. For example, SYTL1 in exocytosis of azurophilic granules from neutrophils[10], SYTL2 in secretion of glucagon granules from pancreatic α cells[11], SYTL3 in secretion of lytic granules from cytotoxic T lymphocytes[12], SYTL4 in exocytosis of dense hormone containing granules from endocrine cells[13] and SYTL5 in secretion of the RANKL cytokine from osteoblasts[14]. This indicates a potential for redundancy through their binding to Rab27 and function in vesicle secretion/trafficking. However, one study found that different Rab27 effectors have distinct functions at different stages of exocytosis[15].

      Very little known about redundancy or hierarchy between these proteins. Differences in function may be due to the variation in gene expression profile across tissues for the different SYTL’s (see Author response image 1 below). SYTL5 is enriched in the brain unlike the others, suggesting possible tissue specific functions. There are also differences in the binding affinities and calcium sensitivities of the C2iA and C2B domains between the SYTL proteins[16].

      Author response image 1.

      GTEx Multi Gene Query for SYTL1-5

      All five SYTL’s are expressed in the U2OS cell line with nTPMs according to Human Protein Atlas of SYTL1: 7.5, SYTL2: 13.4, SYTL3:14.2, SYTL4: 8.7, SYTL5: 4.8. In line with this, in the Rab27A interactome, when comparing cells overexpressing mScarlet-Rab27A with control cells, we detected all five SYTL’s as specific Rab27A-interacting proteins (see Author response table 1 above). Whereas, in the SYTL5 interactome we did not detect any other SYTL protein (table 1 in paper), confirming that they do not form a complex with SYTL5. 

      We have included the following text in the discussion (p. 12): “SYTL5 and Rab27A are both members of protein families, suggesting possible functional redundancies from Rab27B or one of the other SYTL isoforms. While Rab27B has a very low expression in U2OS cells, all five SYTL’s are expressed. However, when knocking out or knocking down SYTL5 and Rab27A we observe significant effects that we presume would be negated if their isoforms were providing functional redundancies. Moreover, we did not detect any other SYTL protein or Rab27B in the SYTL5 interactome, confirming that they do not form a complex with SYTL5.”

      Suggestions for Discussion: 

      Both Rab27A and STYL5 localize to other membranes, including the endolysosomal compartments. How do the authors envisage the mechanism or cellular modifications that allow these proteins, either individually or in complex to function also to regulate mitochondrial funcYon? It would be interesYng to have some views.

      We agree that it would be interesting to better understand the mechanism involved in modulation of the localisation and function of SYTL5 and Rab27A at different cellular compartments, including the mitochondria. Here, we have shown that SYTL5 recruitment to the mitochondria involves coincidence detection, as both its lipid-binding C2 domains and the Rab27A-binding SHD domain are required (Figure 1G-H). Both these domains also seem required for localisation of SYTL5 to vesicles, and we can only speculate that binding to different lipids (Figure 1F) may regulate SYTL5 localisation. Additionally, we find that mitochondrial recruitment of SYTL5 is dependent on the GTPase activity and mitochondrial localisation of Rab27A (Figure 2D-E). However, this seems also the case for vesicular recruitment of SYTL5, although a few SYTL5-Rab27A (T23N) positive vesicles were seen (Figure 2E). 

      To characterise the mechanisms involved in mitochondrial localisation of Rab27A, we have performed mass spectrometry analysis to identify the interactome of Rab27A (see Author response table 1 above). U2OS cells with stable expression of mScarlet-Rab27A or mScarlet only were subjected to immunoprecipitation, followed by MS analysis.  Of the 32 significant Rab27A-interacting hits (compared to control), two of the hits localise in the inner mitochondrial membrane (IMM); ATP synthase F(1) complex subunit alpha (P25705), and mitochondrial very long-chain specific acyl-CoA dehydrogenase (VLCAD)(P49748). However, as these IMM proteins are not likely involved in mitochondrial recruitment of Rab27A, observed under basal conditions, we chose not to include these data in the manuscript. 

      It is known that other RAB proteins are recruited to the mitochondria by regulation of their GTPase activity. During parkin-mediated mitophagy, RABGEF1 (a guanine nucleotide exchange factor) is recruited through its ubiquitin-binding domain and directs mitochondrial localisation of RAB5, which subsequently leads to recruitment of RAB7 by the MON1/CCZ1 GEF complex[1]. As already mentioned in the discussion (p.12), ubiquitination of the Rab27A GTPase activating protein alpha (TBC1D10A) is reduced in the brain of Parkin KO mouse compared to controls[35], suggesting a possible connection of Rab27A with regulatory mechanisms that are linked with mitochondrial damage and dysfunction. While this an interesting avenue to explore, it is beyond the scope of this paper. 

      Our data suggest that SYTL5 functions as a negative regulator of the Warburg effect, the switch from OXPHOS to glycolysis. While both SYTL5 and Rab27A seem required for mitophagy of selective mitochondrial components, and their depletion leading to reduced mitochondrial respiration and ATP production, only depletion of SYTL5 caused a switch to glycolysis. The mechanisms involved are unclear, but we found several proteins linked to the cellular response to oxidative stress, reactive oxygen species metabolic process, regulation of mitochondrion organisation and protein insertion into mitochondrial membrane to be enriched in the SYTL5 interactome (Figure 3A and C).

      We have addressed this comment in the discussion on p.12 

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In the manuscript by Lapao et al., the authors uncover a role for the Rab27A effector protein SYTL5 in regulating mitochondrial function and turnover. The authors find that SYTL5 localizes to mitochondria in a Rab27A-dependent way and that loss of SYTL5 (or Rab27A) impairs lysosomal turnover of an inner mitochondrial membrane mitophagy reporter but not a matrix-based one. As the authors see no co-localization of GFP/mScarlet tagged versions of SYTL5 or Rab27A with LC3 or p62, they propose that lysosomal turnover is independent of the conventional autophagy machinery. Finally, the authors go on to show that loss of SYTL5 impacts mitochondrial respiration and ECAR and as such may influence the Warburg effect and tumorigenesis. Of relevance here, the authors go on to show that SYTL5 expression is reduced in adrenocortical carcinomas and this correlates with reduced survival rates.

      Strengths:

      There are clearly interesting and new findings here that will be relevant to those following mitochondrial function, the endocytic pathway, and cancer metabolism.

      Weaknesses:

      The data feel somewhat preliminary in that the conclusions rely on exogenously expressed proteins and reporters, which do not always align.

      As the authors note there are no commercially available antibodies that recognize endogenous SYTL5, hence they have had to stably express GFP-tagged versions. However, it appears that the level of expression dictates co-localization from the examples the authors give (though it is hard to tell as there is a lack of any kind of quantitation for all the fluorescent figures). Therefore, the authors may wish to generate an antibody themselves or tag the endogenous protein using CRISPR.

      We agree that the level of SYTL5 expression is likely to affect its localisation. As suggested by the reviewer, we have tried hard, without success, to generated U2OS cells with CRISPR knock-in of a mNeonGreen tag at the C-terminus of endogenous SYTL5, using an approach that has been successfully implemented in the lab for other genes. This is likely due to a lack of suitable sgRNAs targeting the C-terminal region of SYTL5, which have a low predicted efficiency score and a large number of predicted off-target sites in the human genome including several other gene exons and introns (see Author response image 2). 

      Author response image 2.

      Overview of sgRNAs targeting the C-terminal region of SYTL5 

      Although the SYTL5 expression level might affect its cellular localization, we also found the mitochondrial localisation of SYTL5-EGFP to be strongly increased in cells co-expressing mScarletRab27A, supporting our findings of Rab27A-mediated mitochondrial recruitment of SYTL5. We have also included new data (Supplementary Figure 4B) showing that some of the hypoxia-induced SYTL5Rab27A-positive vesicles stain positive for the autophagy markers p62 and LC3B when inhibiting lysosomal degradation, further strengthening our data that SYTL5 and Rab27A function as positive regulators of mitophagy.  

      In relation to quantitation, the authors found that SYTL5 localizes to multiple compartments or potentially a few compartments that are positive for multiple markers. Some quantitation here would be very useful as it might inform on function. 

      We find that SYTL5-EGFP localizes to mitochondria, lysosomes and the plasma membrane in U2OS cells with stable expression of SYTL5-EGFP and in SYTL5/Rab27A double knock-out cells rescued with SYTL5EGFP and mScralet-Rab27A. We also see colocalization of SYTL5-EGFP with endogenous p62, LC3 and LAMP1 upon induction of mitophagy. However, as these cell lines comprise a heterogenous pool with high variability we do not believe that quantification of the overexpressing cell lines would provide beneficial information in this scenario. As described above, we have tried several times to generate SYTL5 knock-in cells without success.  

      The authors find that upon hypoxia/hypoxia-like conditions that punctate structures of SYTL5 and Rab27A form that are positive for Mitotracker, and that a very specific mitophagy assay based on pSu9-Halo system is impaired by siRNA of SYTL5/Rab27A, but another, distinct mitophagy assay (Matrix EGFP-mCherry) shows no change. I think this work would strongly benefit from some measurements with endogenous mitochondrial proteins, both via immunofluorescence and western blot-based flux assays. 

      In addition to the western blotting for different endogenous ETC proteins showing significantly increased levels of MTCO1 in cells depleted of SYTL5 and/or Rab27A (Figure 5E-F), we have now blotted for the endogenous mitochondrial proteins, COXIV and BNIP3L, in DFP and DMOG conditions upon knockdown of SYTL5 and/or Rab27A (Figure 5G and Supplementary Figure 5A). Although there was a trend towards increased levels, we did not see any significant changes in total COXIV or BNIP3L levels when SYTL5, Rab27A or both are knocked down compared to siControl. Blotting for endogenous mitochondrial proteins is however not the optimum readout for mitophagy. A change in mitochondrial protein level does not necessarily result from mitophagy, as other factors such as mitochondrial biogenesis and changes in translation can also have an effect. Mitophagy is a dynamic process, which is why we utilise assays such as the HaloTag and mCherry-EGFP double tag as these indicate flux in the pathway. Additionally, as mitochondrial proteins have different half-lives, with many long-lived mitochondrial proteins[17], differences in turnover rates of endogenous proteins make the results more difficult to interpret. 

      A really interesting aspect is the apparent independence of this mitophagy pathway on the conventional autophagy machinery. However, this is only based on a lack of co-localization between p62or LC3 with LAMP1 and GFP/mScarlet tagged SYTL5/Rab27A. However, I would not expect them to greatly colocalize in lysosomes as both the p62 and LC3 will become rapidly degraded, while the eGFP and mScarlet tags are relatively resistant to lysosomal hydrolysis. -/+ a lysosome inhibitor might help here and ideally, the functional mitophagy assays should be repeated in autophagy KOs. 

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have now repeated the colocalisation studies in cells treated with DFP with the addition of bafilomycin A1 (BafA1) to inhibit the lysosomal V-ATPase. Indeed, we find that a few of the SYTL5/Rab27A/MitoTracker positive structures also stain positive for p62 and LC3 (Supplementary Figure 4B). As expected, the occurrence of these structures was rare, as BafA1 was only added for the last 4 hrs of the 24 hr DFP treatment. However, we cannot exclude the possibility that there are two different populations of these vesicles.

      The link to tumorigenesis and cancer survival is very interesYng but it is not clear if this is due to the mitochondrially-related aspects of SYTL5 and Rab27A. For example, increased ECAR is seen in the SYTL5 KO cells but not in the Rab27A KO cells (Fig.5D), implying that mitochondrial localization of SYTL5 is not required for the ECAR effect. More work to strengthen the link between the two sections in the paper would help with future direcYons and impact with respect to future cancer treatment avenues to explore. 

      We agree that the role of SYTL5 in ACC requires future investigation. While we observe reduced OXPHOS levels in both SYTL5 and Rab27A KO cells (Figure 5B), glycolysis was only increased in SYTL5 KO cells (Figure 5D). We believe this indicates that Rab27A is being negatively regulated by SYTL5, as ECAR was unchanged in both the Rab27A KO and Rab27A/SYTL5 dKO cells. This suggests that Rab27A is required for the increase in ECAR when SYTL5 is depleted, therefore SYTL5 negatively regulates Rab27A. The mechanism involved is unclear, but we found several proteins linked to the cellular response to oxidative stress, reactive oxygen species metabolic process, regulation of mitochondrion organisation and protein insertion into mitochondrial membrane to be enriched in the SYTL5 interactome (Figure 3A and C).

      To investigate the link to cancer further, we tested the effect of knockdown of SYTL5 and/or Rab27A on the levels of mitochondrial ROS. ROS levels were measured by flow cytometry using the MitoSOX Red dye, together with the MitoTracker Green dye to normalise ROS levels to the total mitochondria. Cells were treated with the antioxidant N-acetylcysteine (NAC)[18] as a negative control and menadione as a positive control, as menadione induces ROS production via redox cycling[19]. We must consider that there is also a lot of autofluorescence from cells that makes it impossible to get a level of ‘zero ROS’ in this experiment. We did not see a change in ROS with knockdown of SYTL5 and/or Rab27A compared to the NAC treated or siControl samples (see Author response image 3 below). The menadione samples confirm the success of the experiment as ROS accumulated in these cells. Thus, based on this, we do not believe that low SYTL5 expression would affect ROS levels in ACC tumours.

      Author response image 3.

      Mitochondrial ROS production normalised to total mitochondria

      As discussed in our response to Reviewer #1, we tried hard to characterise the role of SYTL5 in the context of ACC using the NCI-H295R cell line isolated from the adrenal gland of an adrenal cancer patient. We attempted to conduct OCR and ECAR measurements using the Seahorse XF upon knockdown of SYTL5 and/or Rab27A in H295R cells without success, due to poor attachment of the cells and inability to form a monolayer. We also transduced the H295R cells with lentiviral particles to overexpress pLVX-SV40-mScarlet-I-Rab27A and pLVX-CMV-SYTL5-EGFP-3xFLAG to study the localisation of SYTL5 and Rab27A in an ACC model. Again, this proved unsuccessful after numerous attempts at optimising the transduction. These issues limited our investigation into the role of SYTL5 in ACC to the cortisol assay (Supplementary Figure 6). For this the H295R cells were an appropriate model as they are able to produce an array of adrenal cortex steroids[6] including cortisol[7] In this assay, measurements are taken from cell culture supernatants, so the confluency of the cells does not prevent consistent results as the cortisol concentration was normalised to total protein per sample. With this assay we were able to rule out a role for SYTL5 and Rab27A in the secretion of cortisol.  

      Another consideration when investigating the involvement of SYTL5 in ACC, is that in general ACC cells should have a low expression of SYTL5 as is seen from the patient expression data (Figure 6B).

      Further studies into the link between SYTL5/Rab27A and cancer are beyond the scope of this paper as we are limited to the tools and expertise available in the lab.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Turner et al. present an original approach to investigate the role of Type-1 nNOS interneurons in driving neuronal network activity and in controlling vascular network dynamics in awake head-fixed mice. Selective activation or suppression of Type-1 nNOS interneurons has previously been achieved using either chemogenetic, optogenetic, or local pharmacology. Here, the authors took advantage of the fact that Type-1 nNOS interneurons are the only cortical cells that express the tachykinin receptor 1 to ablate them with a local injection of saporin conjugated to substance P (SP-SAP). SP-SAP causes cell death in 90 % of type1 nNOS interneurons without affecting microglia, astrocytes, and neurons. The authors report that the ablation has no major effects on sleep or behavior. Refining the analysis by scoring neural and hemodynamic signals with electrode recordings, calcium signal imaging, and wide-field optical imaging, the authors observe that Type-1 nNOS interneuron ablation does not change the various phases of the sleep/wake cycle. However, it does reduce low-frequency neural activity, irrespective of the classification of arousal state. Analyzing neurovascular coupling using multiple approaches, they report small changes in resting-state neural-hemodynamic correlations across arousal states, primarily mediated by changes in neural activity. Finally, they show that nNOS type 1 interneurons play a role in controlling interhemispheric coherence and vasomotion.

      In conclusion, these results are interesting, use state-of-the-art methods, and are well supported by the data and their analysis. I have only a few comments on the stimulus-evoked haemodynamic responses, and these can be easily addressed.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive comments on our work.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This important study by Turner et al. examines the functional role of a sparse but unique population of neurons in the cortex that express Nitric oxide synthase (Nos1). To do this, they pharmacologically ablate these neurons in the focal region of whisker-related primary somatosensory (S1) cortex using a saponin-substance P conjugate. Using widefield and 2photon microscopy, as well as field recordings, they examine the impact of this cell-specific lesion on blood flow dynamics and neuronal population activity. Locally within the S1 cortex, they find changes in neural activity paFerns, decreased delta band power, and reduced sensory-evoked changes in blood flow (specifically eliminating the sustained blood flow change amer stimulation). Surprisingly, given the tiny fraction of cortical neurons removed by the lesion, they also find far-reaching effects on neural activity paFerns and blood volume oscillations between the cerebral hemispheres.

      Strengths:

      This was a technically challenging study and the experiments were executed in an expert manner. The manuscript was well wriFen and I appreciated the cartoon summary diagrams included in each figure. The analysis was rigorous and appropriate. Their discovery that Nos1 neurons can have far-reaching effects on blood flow dynamics and neural activity is quite novel and surprising (to me at least) and should seed many follow-up, mechanistic experiments to explain this phenomenon. The conclusions were justified by the convincing data presented.

      Weaknesses:

      I did not find any major flaws in the study. I have noted some potential issues with the authors' characterization of the lesion and its extent. The authors may want to re-analyse some of their data to further strengthen their conclusions. Lastly, some methodological information was missing, which should be addressed.

      We thank the reviewer for their enthusiasm for our work.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      The role of type-I nNOS neurons is not fully understood. The data presented in this paper addresses this gap through optical and electrophysiological recordings in adult mice (awake and asleep).

      This manuscript reports on a study on type-I nNOS neurons in the somatosensory cortex of adult mice, from 3 to 9 months of age. Most data were acquired using a combination of IOS and electrophysiological recordings in awake and asleep mice. Pharmacological ablation of the type-I nNOS populations of cells led to decreased coherence in gamma band coupling between lem and right hemispheres; decreased ultra-low frequency coupling between blood volume in each hemisphere; decreased (superficial) vascular responses to sustained sensory stimulus and abolishment of the post-stimulus CBV undershoot. While the findings shed new light on the role of type-I nNOS neurons, the etiology of the discrepancies between current observations and literature observations is not clear and many potential explanations are put forth in the discussion.

      We thank the reviewer for their comments.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):  

      (1) Figure 3, Type-1 nNOS interneuron ablation has complex effects on neural and vascular responses to brief (.1s) and prolonged (5s) whisker stimulation. During 0.1 s stimulation, ablation of type 1 nNOS cells does not affect the early HbT response but only reduces the undershoot. What is the pan-neuronal calcium response? Is the peak enhanced, as might be expected from the removal of inhibition? The authors need to show the GCaMP7 trace obtained during this short stimulation.

      Unfortunately, we did not perform brief stimulation experiments in GCaMP-expressing mice. As we did not see a clear difference in the amplitude of the stimulus-evoked response with our initial electrophysiology recordings (Fig. 3a), we suspected that an effect might be visible with longer duration stimuli and thus pivoted to a pulsed stimulation over the course of 5 seconds for the remaining cohorts. It would have been beneficial to interweave short-stimulus trials for a direct comparison between the complimentary experiments, but we did not do this.

      During 5s stimulation, both the early and delayed calcium/vascular responses are reduced. Could the authors elaborate on this? Does this mean that increasing the duration of stimulation triggers one or more additional phenomena that are sensitive to the ablation of type 1 nNOS cells and mask what is triggered by the short stimulation? Are astrocytes involved? How do they interpret the early decrease in neuronal calcium?

      As our findings show that ablation reduces the calcium/vascular response more prominently during prolonged stimulation, we do suspect that this is due to additional NO-dependent mechanisms or downstream responses. NO is modulator of neural activity, generally increasing excitability (Kara and Friedlander 1999, Smith and Otis 2003), so any manipulation that changes NO levels will change (likely decrease) the excitability of the network, potentially resulting in a smaller hemodynamic response to sensory stimulation secondary to this decrease. While short stimuli engage rapid neurovascular coupling mechanisms, longer duration (>1s) stimulation could introduce additional regulatory elements, such as astrocytes, that operate on a slower time scale. On the right, we show a comparison of the control groups ploFed together from Fig. 3a and 3b with vertical bars aligned to the peak. During the 5s stimulation, the time-to-peak is roughly 830 milliseconds later than the 0.1s stimulation, meaning it’s plausible that the signals don’t separate until later. Our interpretation is that the NVC mechanisms responsible for brief stimulus-evoked change are either NO-independent or are compensated for in the SSP-SAP group by other means due to the chronic nature of the ablation. 

      We have added the following text to the Discussion (Line 368): “Loss of type-I nNOS neurons drove minimal changes in the vasodilation elicited by brief stimulation, but led to decreased vascular responses to sustained stimulation, suggesting that the early phase of neurovascular coupling is not mediated by these cells, consistent with the multiple known mechanisms for neurovascular coupling (AFwell et al 2010, Drew 2019, Hosford & Gourine 2019) acting through both neurons and astrocytes with multiple timescales (Le Gac et al 2025, Renden et al 2024, Schulz et al 2012, Tran et al 2018).”

      Author response image 1.

      (2) In Figures 4d and e, it is unclear to me why the authors use brief stimulation to analyze the relationship between HbT and neuronal activity (gamma power) and prolonged stimulation for the relationship between HbT and GCaMP7 signal. Could they compare the curves with both types of stimulation?

      As discussed previously, we did not use the same stimulation parameters across cohorts. The mice with implanted electrodes received only brief stimulation, while those undergoing calcium imaging received longer duration stimulus. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Results, how far-reaching is the cell-specific ablation? Would it be possible to estimate the volume of the cortex where Nos1 cells are depleted based on histology? Were there signs of neuronal injury more remotely, for example, beading of dendrites?

      We regularly see 1-2 mm in diameter of cell ablation within the somatosensory cortex of each animal, which is consistent with the spread of small molecules. Ribosome inactivating proteins like SAP are smaller than AAVs (~5 nm compared to ~25 nm in diameter) and thus diffuse slightly further. We observed no obvious indication of neuronal injury more remotely or in other brain regions, but we did not image or characterize dendritic beading, as this would require a sparse labeling of neurons to clearly see dendrites (NeuN only stains the cell body). Our histology shows no change in cell numbers. 

      We have added the following text to the Results (Line 124): “Immunofluorescent labeling in mice injected with Blank-SAP showed labeling of nNOS-positive neurons near the injection site. In contrast, mice injected with SP-SAP showed a clear loss in nNOS-labeling, with a typical spread of 1-2 mm from the injection site, though nNOS-positive neurons both subcortically and in the entirety of the contralateral hemisphere remaining intact.”

      (2) For histological analysis of cell counts amer the lesion, more information is needed. How was the region of interest for counting cells determined (eg. 500um radius from needle/pipeFe tract?) and of what volume was analysed?

      The region of interest for both SSP-SAP and Blank SAP injections was a 1 mm diameter circle centered around the injection site and averaged across sections (typically 3-5 when available). In most animals, the SSP-SAP had a lateral spread greater than 500 microns and encompassed the entire depth of cortex (1-1.5 mm in SI, decreasing in the rostral to caudal direction). The counts within the 1 mm diameter ROI were averaged across sections and then converted into the cells per mm area as presented. Note the consistent decrease in type I nNOS cells seen across mice in Fig 1d, Fig S1b.

      We have added the following text in the Materials & Methods (Line 507): “The region of interest for analysis of cell counts was determined based on the injection site for both SP-SAP and Blank SAP injections, with a 1 mm diameter circle centered around the injection site and averaged across 3-5 sections where available. In most animals, the SP-SAP had a lateral spread greater than 500 microns and encompassed the entire depth of cortex (1-1.5 mm in SI).”

      (3) Based on Supplementary Figure 1, it appears that the Saponin conjugate not only depletes Nos neurons but also may affect vascular (endothelial perhaps) Nos expression. Some quantification of this effect and its extent may be insighIul in terms of ascribing the effects of the lesion directly on neurons vs indirectly and perhaps more far-reaching via vascular/endothelial NOS.

      Thank you for this comment. While this is a possibility, while we have found that the high nNOS expression of type-I nnoos neurons makes NADPH diaphorase a good stain for detecting them, it is less useful for cell types that expres NOS at lower levels.  We have found that the absolute intensity of NADPH diaphorase staining is somewhat variable from section to section. Variability in overall NADPH diaphorase intensity is likely due to several factors, such as duration of staining, thickness of the section, and differences in PFA concentration within the tissue and between animals. As NADPH diaphorase staining is highly sensitive to amount PFA exposure, any small differences in processing could affect the intensity, and slight differences in perfusion quality and processing could account. A second, perhaps larger issue could be due to differences in the number of arteries (which will express NOS at much higher levels than veins, and thus will appear darker) in the section. We did not stain for smooth muscle and so cannot differentiate arteries and veins.  Any difference in vessel intensity could be due to random variations in the numbers of arteries/veins in the section. While we believe that this is a potentially interesting question, our histological experiments were not able to address it.

      (4) The assessment for inflammation took place 1 month amer the lesion, but the imaging presumably occurred ~ 2 weeks amer the lesion. Note that it seemed somewhat ambiguous as to when approximately, the imaging, and electrophysiology experiments took place relative to the induction of the lesion. Presumably, some aspects of inflammation and disruption could have been missed, at the time when experiments were conducted, based on this disparity in assessment. The authors may want to raise this as a possible limitation.

      We apologize for our unclear description of the timeline. We began imaging experiments at least 4 weeks amer ablation, the same time frame as when we performed our histological assays. 

      We have added the following text to the Discussion (Line 379): “With imaging beginning four weeks amer ablation, there could be compensatory rewiring of local and/or network activity following type-I nNOS ablation, where other signaling pathways from the neurons to the vasculature become strengthened to compensate for the loss of vasodilatory signaling from the typeI nNOS neurons.”

      (5) Results Figure 2, please define "P or delta P/P". Also, for Figure 2c-f, what do the black vertical ticks represent?

      ∆P/P is the change in the gamma-band power relative to the resting-state baseline, and black tick marks indicate binarized periods of vibrissae motion (‘whisking’). We have clarified this in Figure caption 2 (Line 174).

      (6) Figure 3b-e, is there not an undershoot (eventually) amer 5s of stimulation that could be assessed? 

      Previous work has shown that there is no undershoot in response to whisker stimulations of a few seconds (Drew, Shih, Kelinfeld, PNAS, 2011).  The undershoot for brief stimuli happens within ~2.5 s of the onset/cessation of the brief stimulation, this is clearly lacking in the response to the 5s stim (Fig 3).  The neurovascular coupling mechanisms recruited during the short stimulation are different than those recruited during the long stimulus, making a comparison of the undershoot between the two stimulation durations problematic. 

      For Figures 3e and 6 how was surface arteriole diameter or vessel tone measured? 2P imaging of fluorescent dextran in plasma? Please add the experimental details of 2P imaging to the methods. Including some 2P images in the figures couldn't hurt to help the reader understand how these data were generated.

      We have added details about our 2-photon imaging (FITC-dextran, full-width at half-maximum calculation for vessel diameter) as well as a trace and vessel image to Figure 2.

      We have added the following text to the Materials & Methods (Line 477): “In two-photon experiments, mice were briefly anesthetized and retro-orbitally injected with 100 µL of 5% (weight/volume) fluorescein isothiocyanate–dextran (FITC) (FD150S, Sigma-Aldrich, St. Louis, MO) dissolved in sterile saline.”

      We have added the following text to the Materials & Methods (Line 532): “A rectangular box was drawn around a straight, evenly-illuminated vessel segment and the pixel intensity was averaged along the long axis to calculate the vessel’s diameter from the full-width at half-maximum (https://github.com/DrewLab/Surface-Vessel-FWHM-Diameter; (Drew, Shih et al. 2011)).”

      (7) Did the authors try stimulating other body parts (eg. limb) to estimate how specific the effects were, regionally? This is more of a curiosity question that the authors could comment on, I am not recommending new experiments.

      We did measure changes in [HbT] in the FL/HL representation of SI during locomotion (Line 205), which is known to increase neural activity in the somatosensory cortex (Huo, Smith and Drew, Journal of Neuroscience, 2014; Zhang et al., Nature Communications 2019). We observed a similar but not statistically significant trend of decreased [HbT] in SP-SAP compared to control. This may have been due to the sphere of influence of the ablation being centered on the vibrissae representation and not having fully encompassed the limb representation. We agree with the referee that it would be interesting to characterize these effects on other sensory regions as well as brain regions associated with tasks such as learning and behavior.

      (8) Regarding vasomotion experiments, are there no other components of this waveform that could be quantified beyond just variance? Amplitude, frequency? Maybe these don't add much but would be nice to see actual traces of the diameter fluctuations. Further, where exactly were widefield-based measures of vasomotion derived from? From some seed pixel or ~1mm ROI in the center of the whisker barrel cortex? Please clarify.

      The reviewer’s point is well taken. We have added power spectra of the resting-state data which provides amplitude and frequency information. The integrated area under the curve of the power spectra is equal to the variance. Widefield-based measures of vasomotion were taken from the 1 mm ROI in the center of the whisker barrel cortex.

      We have added the following text to the Materials & Methods (Line 560): “Variance during the resting-state for both ∆[HbT] and diameter signals (Fig. 7) was taken from resting-state events lasting ≥10 seconds in duration. Average ∆[HbT] from within the 1 mm ROI over the vibrissae representation of SI during each arousal state was taken with respect to awake resting baseline events ≥10 seconds in duration.” 

      (9) On page 13, the title seems like a bit strong. The data show a change in variance but that does not necessarily mean a change in absolute amplitude. Also, I did not see any reports of absolute vessel widths between groups from 2P experiments so any difference in the sampling of larger vs smaller arterioles could have affected the variance (ie. % changes could be much larger in smaller arterioles).

      We have updated the title of Figure 7 to specifically state power (which is equivalent to the variance) rather than amplitude (Line 331). We have also added absolute vessel widths to the Results (Line 340): “There was no difference in resting-state (baseline) diameter between the groups, with Blank-SAP having a diameter of 24.4 ± 7.5 μm and SP-SAP having a diameter of 23.0 ± 9.4 μm (Fest, p ti 0.61). “

      (10) Big picture question. How could a manipulation that affects so few cells in 1 hemisphere (below 0.5% of total neurons in a region comprising 1-2% of the volume of one hemisphere) have such profound effects in both hemispheres? The authors suggest that some may have long-range interhemispheric projections, but that is presumably a fraction of the already small fraction of Nos1 neurons. Perhaps these neurons have specializing projections to subcortical brain nuclei (Nucleus Basilis, Raphe, Locus Coerulus, reticular thalamus, etc) that then project widely to exert this outsized effect? Has there not been a detailed anatomical characterization of their efferent projections to cortical and sub-cortical areas? This point could be raised in the discussion.

      We apologize for the lack of clarity of our work in this point.  We would like to clarify that the only analysis showing a change in the unablated hemisphere being coherence/correlation analysis between the two hemispheres.  Other metrics (LFP power and CBV power spectra) do not change in the hemisphere contralateral to the injections site, as we show in data added in two supplementary figures (Fig. S4 and 7). The coherence/correlation is a measure of the correlated dynamics in the two hemispheres. For this metric to change, there only needs to be a change in the dynamics of one hemisphere relative to another.  If some aspects of the synchronization of neural and vascular dynamics across hemispheres are mediated by concurrent activation of type I nNOS neurons in both hemispheres, ablating them in one hemisphere will decrease synchrony. It is possible that type I nNOS neurons make some subcortical projections that were not reported in previous work (Tomioka 2005, Ruff 2024), but if these exist they are likely to be very small in number as they were not noted.  

      We have added the text in the Results (Line 228): “In contrast to the observed reductions in LFP in the ablated hemisphere, we noted no gross changes in the power spectra of neural LFP in the unablated hemisphere (Fig. S7) or power of the cerebral blood volume fluctuations in either hemisphere (Fig. S4).”

      Line 335): “The variance in ∆[HbT] during rest, a measure of vasomotion amplitude, was significantly reduced following type-I nNOS ablation (Fig. 7a), dropping from 40.9 ± 3.4 μM<sup>2</sup> in the Blank-SAP group (N ti 24, 12M/12F) to 23.3 ± 2.3 μM<sup>2</sup> in the SP-SAP group (N ti 24, 11M/13F) (GLME p ti 6.9×10<sup>-5</sup>) with no significant di[erence in the unablated hemisphere (Fig. S7).”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1)  The reporting would be greatly strengthened by following ARRIVE guidelines 2.0: https://arriveguidelines.org/: aFrition rates and source of aFrition, justification for the use of 119 (beyond just consistent with previous studies), etc.

      We performed a power analysis prior to our study aiming to detect a physiologically-relevant effect size of (Cohen’s d) ti 1.3, or 1.3 standard deviations from the mean. Alpha and Power were set to the standard 0.05 and 0.80 respectively, requiring around 8 mice per group (SP-SAP, Blank, and for histology, naïve animals) for multiple independent groups (ephys, GCamp, histology). To potentially account for any aFrition due to failures in Type-I nNOS neuron ablation or other problems (such as electrode failure or window issues) we conservatively targeted a dozen mice for each group. Of mice that were imaged (1P/2P), two SP-SAP mice were removed from the dataset (24 SP-SAP remaining) post-histological analysis due to not showing ablation of nNOS neurons, an aFrition rate of approximately 8%.

      We have added the following text to the Materials & Methods (Line 441): “Sample sizes are consistent with previous studies (Echagarruga et al 2020, Turner et al 2023, Turner et al 2020, Zhang et al 2021) and based on a power analysis requiring 8-10 mice per group (Cohen’s d ti 1.3, α ti 0.05, (1 - β) ti 0.800). Experimenters were not blind to experimental conditions or data analysis except for histological experiments. Two SP-SAP mice were removed from the imaging datasets (24 SP-SAP remaining) due to not showing ablation of nNOS neurons during post-histological analysis, an aFrition rate of approximately 8%.”

      (2) Intro, line 38: Description of the importance of neurovascular coupling needs improvement. Coordinated haemodynamic activity is vital for maintaining neuronal health and the energy levels needed.

      We have added a sentence to the introduction (Line 41): “Neurovascular coupling plays a critical role in supporting neuronal function, as tightly coordinated hemodynamic activity is essential for meeting energy metabolism and maintaining brain health (Iadecola et al 2023, Schaeffer & Iadecola 2021).“

      (3) Given the wide range of mice ages, how was the age accounted for/its effects examined?

      Previous work from our lab has shown that there is no change in hemodynamics responses in awake mice over a wide range of ages (2-18 months), so the age range we used (3 and 9 months of age) should not impact this.  

      We have added the following text in the Results (Line 437): “Previous work from our lab has shown that the vasodilation elicited by whisker stimulation is the same in 2–4-month-old mice as in 18-month-old mice (BenneF, Zhang et al. 2024). As the age range used here is spanned by this time interval, we would not expect any age-related differences.”

      (4) How was the susceptibility of low-frequency neuronal coupling signals to noise managed? How were the low-frequency bands results validated?

      We are not sure what the referee is asking here. Our electrophysiology recordings were made differentially using stereotrodes with tips separated by ~100µm, which provides excellent common-mode rejection to noise and a localized LFP signal. Previous publications from our lab (Winder et al., Nature Neuroscience 2017; Turner et al., eLife2020) and others (Tu, Cramer, Zhang, eLife 2024) have repeatedly show that there is a very weak correlation between the power in the low frequency bands and hemodynamic signals, so our results are consistent with this previous work. 

      (5) It would be helpful to demonstrate the selectivity of cell *death* (as opposed to survival) induced by SP-SAP injections via assessments using markers of cell death.

      We agree that this would be helpful complement to our histological studies that show loss of type-I nNOS neurons, but no loss of other cells and minimal inflammation with SP-saporin injections.  However, we did not perform histology looking at cell death, only at surviving cells, given that we see no obvious inflammation or cells loss, which would be triggered by nonspecific cell death.  Previous work has established that saporin is cytotoxic and specific only to cell that internalize the saporin.   Internalization of saporin causes cell death via apoptosis (Bergamaschi, Perfe et al. 1996), and that the substance P receptor is internalized when the receptor is bound (Mantyh, Allen et al. 1995). Treatment of internalized saporin generates cellular debris that is phagocytosed by microglial, consistent with cell death (Seeger, Hartig et al. 1997). While it is possible that treatment of SP-saporin causes type 1 nNOS neurons to stop expressing nitric oxide synthase (which would make them disappear from our IHC staining), we think that this is unlikely given the literature shows internalized saporin is clearly cytotoxic. 

      We have added the following text to the Results (Line 131): “It is unlikely that the disappearance of type-I nNOS neurons is because they stopped expressing nNOS, as internalized saporin is cytotoxic. Exposure to SP-conjugated saporin causes rapid internalization of the SP receptor-ligand complex (Mantyh, Allen et al. 1995), and internalized saporin causes cell death via apoptosis (Bergamaschi, Perfe et al. 1996). In the brain, the resulting cellular debris from saporin administration is then cleared by microglia phagocytosis (Seeger, Hartig et al. 1997).”

      (6) Was the decrease in inter-hemispheric correlation associated with any changes to the corpus callosum?

      We noted no gross changes to the structure of the corpus callosum in any of our histological reconstructions following SSPSAP administration, however, we did not specifically test for this. Again, as we note in our reply in reviewer 2, the decrease in interhemispheric synchronization does not imply that there are changes in the corpus callosum and could be mediated by the changes in neural activity in the hemisphere in which the Type-I nNOS neurons were ablated.

      (7) How were automated cell counts validated?

      Criteria used for automated cell counts were validated with comparisons of manual counting as described in previous literature. We have added additional text describing the process in the Materials & Methods (Line 510): “For total cell counts, a region of interest (ROI) was delineated, and cells were automatically quantified under matched criteria for size, circularity and intensity. Image threshold was adjusted until absolute value percentages were between 1-10% of the histogram density. The function Analyze Par-cles was then used to estimate the number of particles with a size of 100-99999 pixels^2 and a circularity between 0.3 and 1.0 (Dao, Suresh Nair et al. 2020, Smith, Anderson et al. 2020, Sicher, Starnes et al. 2023). Immunoreactivity was quantified as mean fluorescence intensity of the ROI (Pleil, Rinker et al. 2015).”

      (8) Given the weighting of the vascular IOS readout to the superficial tissue, it is important to qualify the extent of the hemodynamic contrast, ie the limitations of this readout.

      We have added the following text to the Discussion (Line 385): “Intrinsic optical signal readout is primarily weighted toward superficial tissue given the absorption and scaFering characteristics of the wavelengths used. While surface vessels are tightly coupled with neural activity, it is still a maFer of debate whether surface or intracortical vessels are a more reliable indicator of ongoing activity (Goense et al 2012; Huber et al 2015; Poplawsky & Kim 2014).” 

      (9) Partial decreases observed through type-I iNOS neuronal ablation suggest other factors also play a role in regulating neural and vascular dynamics: data presented thus do *not* "indicate disruption of these neurons in diseases ranging from neurodegeneration to sleep disturbances," as currently stated. Please revise.

      We agree with the reviewer. We have changed the abstract sentence to read (Line 30): “This demonstrates that a small population of nNOS-positive neurons are indispensable for regulating both neural and vascular dynamics in the whole brain, raising the possibility that loss of these neurons could contribute to the development of neurodegenerative diseases and sleep disturbances.”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors conducted a spatial analysis of dysplastic colon tissue using the Slide-seq method. Their main objective is to build a detailed spatial atlas that identifies distinct cellular programs and microenvironments within dysplastic lesions. Next, they correlated this observation with clinical outcomes in human colorectal cancer.

      Strengths:

      The work is a good example of utilising spatial methods to study different tumour models. The authors identified a unique stem cell program to understand tumours gently and improve patient stratification strategies.

      Weaknesses:

      However, the study's predominantly descriptive nature is a significant limitation. Although the spatial maps and correlations between cell states are interesting observations, the lack of functional validation-primarily through experiments in mouse models-weakens the causal inferences regarding the roles these cellular programs play in tumour progression and therapy resistance.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. Indeed, functional validation to pin down causal dependencies and a more thorough investigation of tumor progression and therapy resistance both in mouse model as well as human patients and/or patient derived samples would broaden the insights to be gained from this work. Unfortunately, this is beyond the scope of this study.

      The authors also missed an opportunity to link the mutational status of malignant cells with the cellular neighbourhoods.

      The data reported in this study only contains spatial data for one mouse model (AV). As spatial data for the other model (AKPV) is missing, it is not possible to link the mutational type of the model with the cellular neighborhoods. We did investigate whether there is extra somatic mutational heterogeneity in the AV data, both regarding single nucleotide variations (SNVs) and copy number variations (CNVs). But at the time when the mice were sacrificed (after 3 weeks) there was no significant mutational heterogeneity discoverable.

      Overall, the study contributes to profiling the dysplastic colon landscape. The methodologies and data will benefit the research community, but further functional validation is crucial to validate the biological and clinical implications of the described cellular interactions.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In their study, Avraham-Davidi et al. combined scRNA-seq and spatial mapping studies to profile two preclinical mouse models of colorectal cancer: Apcfl/fl VilincreERT2 (AV) and Apcfl/fl LSL-KrasG12D Trp53fl/fl Rosa26LSL-tdTomato/+ VillinCreERT2 (AKPV). In the first part of the manuscript, the authors describe the analysis of the normal colon and dysplastic lesions induced in these models following tamoxifen injection. They highlight broad variations in immune and stromal cell composition within dysplastic lesions, emphasizing the infiltration of monocytes and granulocytes, the accumulation of IL-17+gdT cells, and the presence of a distinct group of endothelial cells. A major focus of the study is the remodeling of the epithelial compartment, where the most significant changes are observed. Using non-negative matrix factorization, the authors identify molecular programs of epithelial cell functions, emphasizing stemness, Wnt signaling, angiogenesis, and inflammation as major features associated with dysplastic cells. They conclude that findings from scRNA-seq analyses in mouse models are transposable to human CRC. In the second part of the manuscript, the authors aim to provide the spatial context for their scRNA-seq findings using Slide-seq and TACCO. They demonstrate that dysplastic lesions are disorganized and contain tumor-specific regions, which contextualize the spatial proximity between specific cell states and gene programs. Finally, they claim that these spatial organizations are conserved in human tumors and associate region-based gene signatures with patient outcomes in public datasets. Overall, the data were collected and analyzed using solid and validated methodology to offer a useful resource to the community.

      Main comments:

      (1) Clarity

      The manuscript would benefit from a substantial reorganization to improve clarity and accessibility for a broad readership. The text could be shortened and the number of figure panels reduced to emphasize the novel contributions of this work while minimizing extensive discussions on general and expected findings, such as tissue disorganization in dysplastic lesions. Additionally, figure panels are not consistently introduced in the correct order, and some are not discussed at all (e.g., Figure S1D; Figure 3C is introduced before Figure 3A; several panels in Figure 4 are not discussed). The annotation of scRNA-seq cell states is insufficiently explained, with no corresponding information about associated genes provided in the figures or tables. Multiple annotations are used to describe cell groups (e.g., TKN01 = γδ T and CD8 T, TKN05 = γδT_IL17+), but these are not jointly accessible in the figures, making the manuscript challenging to follow. It is also not clear what is the respective value of the two mouse models and time points of tissue collection in the analysis.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We clarified and simplified the revised manuscript, however we believe that the current discussions are an important part of the manuscript and would be useful to readers. We reordered panels in Figures S1 and 3 to align with their appearance in the manuscript. We kept the order of other panels as it is to keep both context and coherence of those figures intact. We changed the way we reference cell clusters in the manuscript to better align with the naming scheme introduced in Figure 1B. The respective value of the two mouse models as well as the time points of tissue collection are described in lines 108-120 of the manuscript.

      (2) Novelty

      While the study is of interest, it does not present major findings that significantly advance the field or motivate new directions and hypotheses. Many conclusions related to tissue composition and patient outcomes, such as the epithelial programs of Wnt signaling, angiogenesis, and stem cells, are well-established and not particularly novel. Greater exploration of the scRNA-seq data beyond cell type composition could enhance the novelty of the findings. For instance, several tumor microenvironment clusters uniquely detected in dysplastic lesions (e.g., Mono2, Mono3, Gran01, Gran02) are identified, but no further investigation is conducted to understand their biological programs, such as applying nNMF as was done for epithelial cells. Additional efforts to explore precise tissue localization and cellular interactions within tissue niches would provide deeper insights and go beyond the limited analyses currently displayed in the manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. Our study aimed to spatially characterize the tumor microenvironment, with scRNA-seq analysis serving to support this spatial characterization.

      Due to technical limitations—such as the number of samples and the limited capture efficiency of Slide-seq—the resolution of immune cell identification in our spatial analysis is constrained. Additionally, while immune and stromal cells formed distinct clusters, epithelial cells exhibited a continuum that was better captured using nNMF.

      Lastly, our manuscript provides a general characterization of monocyte and granulocyte populations in scRNA-seq (line 144) and their spatial microenvironments (line 400). We believe that additional analyses of these populations would be beyond the scope of this study and could place an unnecessary burden on the reader. Instead, we suggest that such analyses be explored in future studies.

      We remark that we analyzed tissue localization for two entirely different spatial transcriptomics assays (Slide-seq and Cartana) at the resolution of cell types and programs, which was feasible within the constraints of the sparsity, gene panel and sample size in the experiments. A future potential path to further increase the resolution of investigation in this dataset is to include other datasets, e.g. by the emerging transformer-based spatial transcriptomics integration methods.

      We also remark that the manuscript already includes an investigation of cellular interactions within tissue niches based on COMMOT (Fig 4k, Fig S8i, Supp Item 4).

      (3) Validation

      Several statements made by the authors are insufficiently supported by the data presented in the manuscript and should be nuanced in the absence of proper validation. For example:

      (a) RNA velocity analyses: The conclusions drawn from these analyses are speculative and need further support.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We clarified that our conclusions from the RNA velocity analysis need further support by experimental validation (lines 223-225), which is outside the scope of the current study.

      (b) Annotations of epithelial clusters as dysplastic: These annotations could have been validated through morphological analyses and staining on FFPE slides.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. While this could have been a possible approach, our study primarily relies on scRNA-seq, which does not preserve tissue morphology, and Slide-seq of fresh tissue, where such an analysis is particularly challenging.

      (c) Conservation of mouse epithelial programs in human tumors: The data in Figure S5B does not convincingly demonstrate the enrichment of stem cell program 16 in human samples. This should be more explicitly stated in the text, given the emphasis placed on this program by the authors.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We clarified the section about the stem cell program 16 and references to Figures S5A and S5B (lines 269-274): while we do see correlation in the definition of human programs with the mouse stem cell program (Figure S5A), we do not see a correlated expression of the stem cell program across human and mouse (Figure S5B).

      (d) Figure S6E: Cluster Epi06 is significantly overrepresented in spatial data compared to scRNA-seq, yet the authors claim that cell type composition is largely recapitulated without further discussion, which reduces confidence in other conclusions drawn.

      We thank the reviewer for this remark. Indeed, Epi06 was a cluster which drew our attention during early analyses for its mixed expression profiles with contributions of vastly different cell types. We concluded that this is best explained by doublets, but we cannot rule out (partial) non-doublet explanations (e.g. undifferentiated cells). As doublet detection with Scrublet did not flag those cells as doublets, we kept these cells in the workflow, but excluded them from further interpretation. While in the previous version of the manuscript we only shortly hinted to this in figure legend 2A ("Cluster Epi06: doublets (not called by Scrublet)"), we expanded on this in the methods section of the revised manuscript (lines 863-869). Given the doublet interpretation, the observation that this cluster is significantly overrepresented in the annotation of the spatial data is not surprising as this annotation comes from the decomposition of compositional data which contains contributions of multiple cells per Slide-seq bead which are structurally very similar to doublets. While Epi06 appears enriched in S6E when comparing Slide-Seq to scRNA-seq, there are multiple technical  cross platform differences, including different per-gene sensitivities or capture biases for certain cell types (e.g. stromal cells suffering more from dissociation in scRNA compared to Slide-Seq). We believe that comparisons between disease states within a single platform are more biologically meaningful, like the comparison between normal and premalignant tissue, which is presented in Figure S6G. To increase confidence in the analysis and to assess whether intra-platform biological conclusions are affected by the inclusion/exclusion of Epi06, we recreated Figure S6G for a Slide-Seq cell type annotation without Epi06 in the reference (see Author response image 1). Even though Epi06 is missing in that annotation, the strong enrichments are consistently preserved between the two analysis variants, while as expected some less significant enrichments with larger FDR values are not preserved.

      Author response image 1.

      Significance (FDR, color bar, two-sided Welch’s t test on CLR-transformed compositions) of enrichment (red) or depletion (blue) of cell clusters (rows) in normal (N) or AV (AV) tissues based on Slide-seq (“spatial”) data or scRNA-seq ("sc”) including (A) or excluding (B) Epi06 in the reference for annotating the Slide-Seq data (A is identical to Figure S6G in the manuscript).<br />

      Furthermore, stronger validation of key dysplastic regions (regions 6, 8, and 11) in mouse and human tissues using antibody-based imaging with markers identified in the analyses would have considerably strengthened the study. Such validation would better contextualize the distribution, composition, and relative abundance of these regions within human tumors, increasing the significance of the findings and aiding the generation of new pathophysiological hypotheses.

      We agree with the reviewer with their assessment that validation by antibody-based imaging (or other spatial proteomics data) would have been useful follow-up experiments, yet these are beyond the scope of the current study.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      AV and AKPV have different oncogenic mutations, and their impact on spatial neighbourhoods is unclear. Can authors perform an analysis to understand the contribution of oncogenic mutations on the spatial landscape of CRC?

      The data reported in this study only contains spatial data for one mouse model (AV). As spatial data for the other model (AKPV) is missing, it is not possible to comparatively link the mutational type of the model with the spatial landscape.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review)

      (1) The authors postulate a synergistic role for Itgb1 and Itgb3 in the intravasation phenotype, because the single KOs did not replicate the phenotype of the DKO. However, this is not a correct interpretation in the opinion of this reviewer. The roles appear rather to be redundant. Synergistic roles would rather demonstrate a modest effect in the single KO with potentiation in the DKO.

      We agree that the interaction between Itgb1 and Itgb3 appears redundant and we have corrected this point in the revised manuscript (page 10).

      (2) The experiment does not explain how these integrins influence the interaction of the MK with their microenvironment. It is not surprising that attachment will be impacted by the presence or absence of integrins. However, it is unclear how activation of integrins allows the MK to become "architects for their ECM microenvironment" as the authors posit. A transcriptomic analysis of control and DKO MKs may help elucidate these effects.

      We do not yet understand how the activation of α5β1 or αvβ3 integrins affects ECM remodeling by megakaryocytes. Integrins are key regulators of ECM remodeling (see https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ceb.2006.08.009) and can transmit traction forces that induce these changes (see https://doi.org/10.1016/j.bpj.2008.10.009). Our previous study also found reduced RhoA activation in double knockout (DKO) megakaryocytes (MKs) (Guinard et al., 2023, PMID: 37171626), which likely affects ECM organization. These findings are discussed in the Discussion section of the paper (page 14).

      As suggested, conducting a transcriptomic analysis of control and DKO MKs may help to elucidate these effects. However, isolating native rare MKs from DKO mice is technically challenging and requires too many animals. To overcome this issue, we instead isolated mouse platelets and used targeted RT-PCR arrays to profile key ECM remodelling (ECM proteins, proteases…) and adhesion molecules (Zifkos et al., Circ. Res. 2024, PMID, 38563147). Quality controls confirmed that integrin RNA was undetectable in the DKO samples, ruling out contamination. Nevertheless, we found no significant expression differences exceeding the 3-fold change threshold between the control and DKO groups. The high Ct (threshold cycles) values indicate low transcript abundance, which may mask subtle changes (see the scatter plot below). As an example, we present a typical result obtained for the reviewer.

      Author response image 1.

      Relative expression comparison of ECM related-genes between control and DKO integrins in washed platelets. The figure shows a log transformation plot of the relative expression level of each gene between normal (x-axis) and DKO integrins (y-axis). The lines indicate the threefold change threshold for gene expression. These are representative results from two independent experiments.

      (3) Integrin DKO have a 50% reduction in platelets counts as reported previously, however laminin α4 deficiency only leads to 20% reduction in counts. This suggests a more nuanced and subtle role of the ECM in platelet growth. To this end, functional assays of the platelets in the KO and wildtype mice may provide more information.

      The exact contribution of the extracellular matrix (ECM) cage to platelet growth remains incompletely understood. In the Lamα4⁻/⁻ model, a collagen-rich ECM cage persists alongside normal fibronectin deposition. By contrast, the integrin DKO model exhibits a markedly severe phenotype characterized by the loss of both the laminin cage and collagen and the absence of fibrillar fibronectin. Also, the preserved collagen and fibronectin in Lamα4⁻/⁻ mice may permit residual activation of signaling pathways - potentially via integrins or alternative mechanisms- compared to the DKO model. We appreciate the reviewer’s feedback on this adjustment, which has been incorporated into the discussion (page 15).

      As suggested by the reviewer, we performed functional assays that demonstrated normal platelet function in Lamα4⁻/⁻ mice and impaired integrin-mediated aggregation in Itgb1<sup>-/-</sup>/Itgb3<sup>-/-</sup>  mice, as shown by the new data presented in the publication (see pages 7 and 9). Platelet function remained preserved following treatment with MMP inhibitors. This supports the idea that differences in ECM composition can influence the signaling environment and megakaryocyte maturation, but do not fully abrogate platelet function (page 15).

      (4) There is insufficient information in the Methods Section to understand the BM isolation approach. Did the authors flush the bone marrow and then image residual bone, or the extruded bone marrow itself as described in PMID: 29104956?

      Additional methodological information has been provided to clarify that only the extruded bone marrow, and not the bone itself, is isolated (page 17).

      (5) The references in the Methods section were very frustrating. The authors reference Eckly et al 2020 (PMID : 32702204) which provides no more detail but references a previous publication (PMID: 24152908), which also offers no information and references a further paper (PMID: 22008103), which, as far as this reviewer can tell, did not describe the methodology of in situ bone marrow imaging.

      To address this confusion, we have added the reference "In Situ Exploration of the Major Steps of Megakaryopoiesis Using Transmission Electron Microscopy" by C. Scandola et al. (PMID : 34570102) in the « Isolation and preservation of murine bone marrow » section (page 20), which provides a standardized protocol for bone marrow isolation and in situ bone marrow imaging.

      Therefore, this reviewer cannot tell how the preparation was performed and, importantly, how can we be sure that the microarchitecture of the tissue did not get distorted in the process?

      Thank you for pointing this out. While we cannot completely rule out the possibility of distortion, we have clarified the precautions taken to minimize it. We used a double fixation procedure immediately after bone marrow extrusion, followed by embedding it in agarose to preserve its integrity as much as possible. We have elaborated on this point in greater detail in the Methods section of the revised version (page 18).

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      (1) ECM cage imaging

      (a) The value or additional information provided by the staining on nano-sections (A) is not clear, especially considering that the thick vibratome sections already display the entirety of the laminin γ1 cage structure effectively. Further clarification on the unique insights gained from each approach would help justify its inclusion.

      Ultrathin cryosectioning enables high-resolution imaging with a threefold increase in Z-resolution, facilitating precise analysis of signal superposition. This approach was particularly valuable for clearly visualizing activated integrin in contact with laminin and collagen IV fibers (see Fig. 3 in revised manuscript, pages 6, 8 and 18). Additionally, 3D reconstructions and z-stack data reveal complex interactions between the basement membrane and the cellular ECM cage that are not evident in 2D projections (see page 6). These complementary methods help elucidate the detailed molecular and three-dimensional organization of the ECM cage surrounding megakaryocytes. These points have been clarified in the method and result sections.

      (b) The sMK shown in Supplementary Figure 1C appears to be linked to two sinusoids, releasing proplatelets to the more distant vessels. Is this observation representative, and if so, can further discussion be provided?

      This observation is not representative; MKs can also be associated with just one sinusoid.

      (c) Freshly isolated BM-derived MKs are reported to maintain their laminin γ1 cage. Are the proportions of MKs with/without cages consistent with those observed in microscopy?   

      After mechanical dissociation and size exclusion, almost half of the MKs successfully retained their cages (53.4% ± 5.6%, based on 329 MKs from three experiments; see page 7 of the manuscript for new data). This highlights the strong physical connection between MK and their cage.

      (2) ECM cage formation

      (a) The statement "the full assembly of the 3D ECM cage required megakaryocyte interaction with the sinusoidal basement membrane" on page 7 is too strong given the data presented at this stage of the study. Supplemental Figure 1C shows that approximately 10% of pMKs form cages without direct vessel contact, indicating that other factors may also play a role in cage formation.

      The reviewer is correct. We have adjust the text to reflect a more cautious interpretation of our results. « Althought we cannot exclude that ECM cage can be form on its own, our data suggests that ECM cage assembly may require interactions between megakaryocytes and the sinusoidal basement membrane » suggests that the assembly of the 3D ECM cage may require interactions between megakaryocytes and the sinusoidal basement membrane » (page 7).

      (b) The data supporting the statement that "pMK represent a small fraction of the total MK population" (cell number or density) could be shown to help contextualize the 10% of them with a cage.

      Following the reviewer's recommendation, a new bar graph has been added to illustrate the 18 ± 1.3 % of MK in the parenchyma relative to the total MK in the bone marrow (page 7 and Suppl. Figure 1H).

      (c) How "the full assembly of the 3D ECM cage" is defined at this stage of the study should be clarified, specifically regarding the ECM components and structural features that characterize its completion.

      We recognize that the term ' full assembly' of the 3D ECM cage can be misleading, as it might suggest different stages of cage formation, such as a completed cage, one in the formation process, or an incomplete cage. Since we have not yet studied this concept, we have eliminate the term "full assembly" from the manuscript to avoid confusion. Instead, we mention the presence of a cage.

      (3) Data on MK Circulation and Cage Integrity: Does the cage require full component integrity to prevent MK release in circulation? Are circulating MKs found in Lama4-/- mice? Is the intravasation affected in these mice? Are the ~50% sinusoid associated MK functional?  

      In lamα4-deficient (Lamα4-/-) mice, which possess an intact collagen IV cage but a structurally compromised laminin cage, electron microscopy and whole-mount imaging revealed an absence of intact megakaryocytes within the sinusoidal lumen. This observation indicates that the structural integrity of all components of the ECM cage is critical for preventing megakaryocyte entry into the circulation. Despite the laminin deficiency, mature Lamα4-/- megakaryocytes exhibited normal ultrastructure and maintained typical intravasation behavior. Furthermore, analysis of bone marrow explants from Lamα4-/- mice demonstrated that megakaryocytes retained their capacity to extend proplatelets. These findings are presented on page 7 and further discussed on page 14.

      (4) Methodology

      (a) Details on fixation time are not provided, which is critical as it can impact antibody binding and staining. Including this information would improve reproducibility and feasibility for other researchers.

      We have included this information in the methods section.

      (b) The description of 'random length measuring' is unclear, and the rationale behind choosing random quantification should be explained. Additionally, in the shown image, it appears that only the branching ends were measured, which makes it difficult to discern the randomness in the measurements.

      The random length measurement method uses random sampling to provide unbiased data on laminin/collagen fibers in a 3D cage. Contrary to what the initial image might have suggested, measurements go beyond just the branching ends ; they include intervals between various branching points throughout the cage. This is now explained page 19.

      To clarify this process, we will outline these steps page 19 as : 1) acquire 3D images, 2) project onto 2D planar sections, 3) select random intersection points for measurement, 4) measure intervals using ImageJ software, and 5) repeat the process for a representative dataset. This will better illustrate the randomness of our measurements.

      (5) Figures

      (a) Overall, the figures and their corresponding legends would benefit from greater clarity if some panels were split, such as separating images from graph quantifications.

      Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we will fully update all the Figures and separate images from graph quantifications.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      (1) The data linking ECM cage formation to MK maturation raises several interesting questions. As the authors mention, MKs have been suggested to mature rapidly at the sinusoids, and both integrin KO and laminin KO MKs appear mislocalized away from the sinusoids. Additionally, average MK distances from the sinusoid may also help separate whether the maturation defects could be in part due to impaired migration towards CXCL12 at the sinusoid. Presumably, MKs could appear mislocalized away from the sinusoid given the data presented suggesting they leaving the BM and entering circulation. Additional data or commentary on intrinsic (ex-vivo) MK maturation phenotypes may help strengthen the author's conclusions and shed light on whether an essential function of the ECM cage is integrin activation at the sinusoid.

      The idea that megakaryocytes move toward CXCL12 is still debated. Some studies suggest mature MKs are mainly sessile (PMID: 28743899), while others propose that CXCL12 may guide MK progenitors rather than mature MKs (PMID: 38987596, this reference has been added). To address the reviewer’s concerns regarding CXCL12-mediated migration, we conducted additional investigations.

      For DKO integrins, Guinard et al. (2023, PMID: 37171626) reported no significant change in the distance between MKs and sinusoids, indicating that integrin deficiency does not impair MK migration toward sinusoidal vessels.

      In our own study involving Lamα4-/- mice, we utilized whole-mount bone marrow preparations, labeling MKs with GPIbβ antibodies and sinusoids with FABP4 antibodies. We observed a 1.6-fold increase in the proximity of MKs to sinusoids in Lamα4-/- mice compared to controls (see figure below). However, the absolute distances measured were less than 3 µm in both groups, much smaller than the average diameter of a mature MK (20 - 25 µm), raising questions about the biological significance of these findings in active MK migration. What happens with MK progenitors - a population not detectable in our experiments using morphological criteria or GPIb staining - remains an open question.

      These results are provided for the reviewer’s information and will be available to eLife readers, along with the authors’ responses, in the revised manuscript.

      Author response image 2.

      (2) The data demonstrating intact MKs in the circulation is intriguing - can the authors comment or provide evidence as to whether MKs are detectable in blood? A quantitative metric may strengthen these observations.

      To investigate this, we conducted flow cytometry experiments and prepared blood smears to determine the presence of intact Itgb1-/-/Itgb3-/- megakaryocytes in the blood. Unfortunately, we could not detect any intact megakaryocytes in the blood samples using FACS (see new Supplementary Figure 4E) nor any on the blood smears (data not shown). However, we observed that large, denuded megakaryocyte nuclei were retained in the downstream pulmonary capillaries of these mice. Intravital imaging of the lung has previously provided direct evidence for the phenomenon of microvascular trapping (Lefrançois et al., 2017; PMID: 28329764), demonstrating that megakaryocytes can be physically entrapped within the pulmonary circulation due to size exclusion while releasing platelets. This has been clarified in the revised paper (Results section, page 10).

      (3) Supplementary Figure 6 - shows no effect on in vitro MK maturation and proplt, or MK area - But Figures 6B/6C demonstrate an increase in total MK number in MMP-inhibitor treated mice compared to control. Some additional clarification in the text may substantiate the author's conclusions as to either the source of the MMPs or the in vitro environment not fully reflecting the complex and dynamic niche of the BM ECM in vivo.

      This is a valid point. We have revised the text to be more cautious and to provide further clarification on these points (page 12).

      (4) Similarly, one function of the ECM discussed relates to MK maturation but in the B1/3 integrin KO mice, the presence of the ECM cage is reduced but there appears to be no significant impact upon maturation (Supplementary Figure 4). By contrast, MMP inhibition in vivo (but not in vitro) reduces MK maturation. These data could be better clarified in the text, or by the addition of experiments addressing whether the composition and quantity of ECM cage components directly inhibit maturation versus whether effects of MMP-inhibitors perhaps lead to over-activation of the integrins (as with the B4galt KO in the discussion) are responsible for the differences in maturation.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out.

      In our study of DKO integrin mice with a reduced extracellular matrix (ECM) cage, we observed normal proportions of MK maturation stages. However, these mutant MKs had a disorganized membrane system and smaller cytoplasmic areas compared to wild-type cells, indicating issues in their maturation. This is detailed further in the manuscript (see page 9).

      In the context of MMP inhibition in vivo, which also leads to reduced MK maturation, our immunofluorescence analysis revealed in an increased presence of activated β1 integrin in bone marrow sections (see Supplementary Figure 6E). As suggested by the reviewer, this increase may explain the maturation defect.

      In summary, while it's challenging to definitively determine how ECM cage composition and quantity affect MK maturation in vivo, our results show that changes to the ECM cage - whether through genetic modification (DKO) or MMP inhibition - are consistently linked to defects in MK maturation.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Movies 1-3 are referenced in the Results section, but this reviewer was not able to find a movie file.

      They have now been added to the downloaded revised manuscript.

      (2) Figure 2D is referenced in the Results Section but this panel is not present in the Figure itself. Instead, this seems to be what is referred to as the right panel of 2C. 

      Thank you. Following the suggestion of reviewer 2, we have now split the panels and separated the images from the graph quantifications. This change has modified all the panel annotations, which we have carefully checked both in the legend and in the manuscript.

      (3) Supplemental Fig 3C has Fibrinogen quantification which seems to belong in Supplemental 3 F instead.  

      Supplementary Figure 3C serves as a control for immunofluorescence, indicating that no fibrinogen-positive granules are detectable in the DKO mice. This supports the conclusion that the αIIbβ3 integrin-mediated fibrinogen internalization pathway is non-functional in this model, affirming the bar graph's placement. We appreciate the reviewer’s insight that similar results may arise from the IEM experiments in Figure 3H, which is valuable for strengthening our findings.

      (4) The x-axis labels in Supplemental 5B are not uniform.  

      This has be done. Thank you.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Figure 1 Panel C: The sinusoidal basement membrane staining is missing, making it difficult to conclude that the collagen IV organization extends radially from the sinusoidal basement membrane.

      As recommended by the reviewer, we have updated Figure 1C with a new image illustrating the basement membrane (FABP4 staining) and the collagen IV cage. This new image confirms that the cage extends radially from the basement membrane.

      (2) Arrows in 1B: Based on the arrow's localisation, the description of "basement membrane-cage connection" is not evident from the images as it looks like the signal colocalization (right lower panel) occurs below the highlighted areas. Clarification or additional evidence of co-localization is required. 

      The apparent localization of the signal "below" the highlighted areas in the maximal projection image is due to the nature of 2D projections, which compress overlapping signals from multiple depths within the bone marrow into a single plane. This can obscure the spatial relationship between the basement membrane and extracellular matrix (ECM) components. However, when the complete z-stack series is examined, the direct connection between the basement membrane and the ECM cage becomes evident in three dimensions. Therefore, we have now added a comprehensive analysis of the entire z-stack dataset, allowing us to accurately interpret the spatial relationships between the basement membrane and ECM in the native bone marrow microenvironments (movies 1 and 2, and Suppl. Figure 1D-E).

      (3) In Figure 4C, GPIX is used to identify MKs by IVM while GP1bβ is used throughout the rest of the manuscript. It would be helpful for readers who are less familiar with MKs to understand whether GPIX and GP1bβ identify the same population of MKs and the rationale for choosing one marker over the other.  

      GPIX and GPIbβ are components of the GPIb-IX complex, identifying mature megakaryocytes (Lepage et al., 2000, PMID : 11110688). The choice of one over the other in different experiments is primarily based on technical considerations. The intravital experiments have been standardized using an AF488-conjugated anti-GPIX to identify mature megakaryocytes consistently. GPIbβ (GP1bβ) is used in the rest of the manuscript due to its strong and specific bright staining. We have clarified this point in the Result (page 10) and in the Material/methods section (page 17).

      (4) The term "total number of MKs" is used (p8), but the associated data presented in the figure reflect MK density per surface area. Descriptions in the text should align with the data format in the figures.

      This has been corrected in the revised manuscript (page 8). Thank you.

      (5) Supplemental Figure 1(B): Collagen I is written as Collagen III in the legend.

      This has been corrected in the legend of the Figure 1B.

      (6) Figure 2D is described in the text but is missing from the figure.

      This has been corrected.

      (7) Supplemental Figure 3: Plot E overlaps with the images, making it unclear.

      To minimise overlap with the images, we've moved the graph with the bars down. Thank you.

      (8) Supplemental Figure 7: The image quality is too low, and spelling underlining issues are present. A better-quality version with clear labelling is essential.

      We have improved the quality of Figure 7 and fixed the underlining problems.

      (9) The movies were not found in the downloads provided.

      They have now been added to the downloaded revised manuscript.

      (10) Some bar graphs are missing the individual data points.

      All figures have been standardized and now include the individual data points.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Some minor comments:

      (1) If there is specific importance to some of the analyses of the cage structure, such as fiber length, and pore size, (eg. if they may have biological significance to the MK) it may help readers to give additional context to what differences in the pore size might imply. For example, do pores constrain MKs at sites where actin-driven proplatelet formation could be initiated?

      The effects of extracellular matrix (ECM) features - like fiber length and pore size - on megakaryocyte (MK) biology are not fully understood. Longer ECM fibers may help MKs adhere better and sense their environment. Larger pores could make it easier for MKs to grow, communicate, and extend proplatelets through blood vessel walls. The role of matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs), which degrade the ECM, adds to the complexity, and how this occurs in vivo is not yet well understood.

      As suggested, some of these points have been addressed in the revised manuscript (Discussion, page 16).

      (2) "Although fibronectin and fibrinogen were readily detected around megakaryocytes, a reticular network around megakaryocytes was not observed. Furthermore, no connection was identified between fibronectin and fibrinogen deposition with the sinusoid basement membrane, in contrast to the findings for laminin and collagen IV (Supp. Figures 1E)." - Clarification of how these data are interpreted might be helpful as to what the authors are intending to demonstrate with these data as at least in Figure 1E, fibronectin, and fibrinogen do appear expressed along the MK surface and at the sinusoidal-MK interface.

      While fibronectin and fibrinogen are present around megakaryocytes and at the vessel-cell interface, they do not form a reticular ECM cage. The functional implications of this finding remain unclear. One can imagine that the specific spatial arrangement of various ECM components may lead to different functional roles. Laminin and collagen IV may provide structural support by forming a 3D cage that is essential for the proper positioning and maturation of megakaryocytes. In contrast, fibronectin and fibrinogen may have different functions, potentially related to megakaryocyte expansion in bone marrow fibrosis (Malara et al., 2019, PMID : 30733282) and (Matsuura et al., 2020, PMID : 32294178).  

      This topic has been adressed in the Results page 7 and discussion on page 13.

      (3) Given the effects of dual B1/B3 integrin inhibition on MK intravasation, can the authors comment on the use of integrin RGD-based inhibitors? Are these compounds and drugs likely to interfere with MK retention?

      Our study shows that MK retention depends on the integrity of both components of the cage, collagen IV and laminin (see also point 3 of reviewer 2). Collagen IV contains RGD sequences, making it susceptible to RGD-based inhibition, whereas laminin does not utilize the RGD motif, raising questions about the overall efficacy of these inhibitors.

      In addition, the in vivo efficacy and potential off-target effects of these inhibitors in the complex bone marrow microenvironment remain to be fully elucidated. This intriguing issue warrants further investigation.

      (4) Beyond protein components, other non-protein ECM molecules including glycosaminoglycans (HA, HS) have essential roles in supporting MK function, including maturation (PMIDs: 31436532, 36066492, 27398974) and may merit some brief discussion if the authors feel this is helpful.

      We followed reviewer’s suggestion and mention the contribution of glycoaminoglycans in MK maturation. We also added the three references (page 13). 

      (5) In several locations, the text refers to figure panels that are either not present or not annotated correctly (some examples include Figure 2D, Supplementary Figure 3E vs 3D).

      Following the suggestion of reviewer 2, we have now split the panels and separated the images from the graph quantifications. This change has changed all the panel annotations, which we have carefully checked both in the legend and in the manuscript.

      (6) In some cases, the figure legends seem to incorrectly refer to text, colors, or elements in the panels (e.g. Supplementary Figure 3, fibrinogen is referred to as yellow in the legend but is green in the figure). In Supplemental Figure 1, an image is annotated as pryenocyte in the figure, but splenocyte in the text.

      This has been corrected in the figures and in the revised manuscript. Please also see point (7) below.  Thank you very much.

      (7) Images demonstrating GPIX and GPIBb positive cells in the calvarial and lung microcirculation are convincing, but in Figure C these cells are referred to as MKs, whereas in Figure D they are referred to as pyrenocytes (as well as in the discussion). It is not clear if this is intentional and refers to bare nuclei from erythrocytes or indeed refers to MKs or MK nuclei. Clarification would help guide readers.

      We agree with the reviewer and fully acknowledge the need for clarification. We confirm that these circulating cells are megakaryocytes. To avoid confusion, we have ensure that all references to "pyrenocytes" have been replaced with "megakaryocytes."

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work starts with the observation that embryo polarization is asynchronous starting at the early 8-cell stage, with early polarizing cells being biased towards producing the trophectoderm (TE) lineage. They further found that reduced CARM1 activity and upregulation of its substrate BAF155 promote early polarization and TE specification, this piece of evidence connects the previous finding that at Carm1 heterogeneity 4-cell stage guide later cell lineages - the higher Carm1-expressing blastomeres are biased towards ICM lineage. Thus, this work provides a link between asymmetries at the 4-cell stage and polarization at the 8-cell stage, providing a cohesive explanation regarding the first lineage allocation in mouse embryos.

      Strengths:

      In addition to what has been put in the summary, the advanced 3D image-based analysis has found that early polarization is associated with a change in cell geometry in blastomeres, regarding the ratio of the long axis to the short axis. This is considered a new observation that has not been identified.

      Weaknesses:

      For the microinjection-based method to overexpression/deletion of proteins, although it has been shown to be effective in the early embryo settings and has been widely used, it may not fully represent the in vivo situation in some cases, compared to other strategies such as the use of knock-in mice. This is a minor weakness; it would be good to include some sentences in the discussion on the potential caveats.

      We thank the reviewer for their insightful summary of our work, and their adjudication on the novelty of our research. We agree with the reviewer that microinjection-based methods, whilst being the standard and widely used in the field, have their weaknesses. In this study, we have primarily used microinjection of previously tested and known constructs which may help mitigate these concerns, and have referenced numerous studies in which these constructs have been used and tested. Nevertheless, the authors are aware of this drawback and have tried to address this previously in other research using novel artificial intelligence techniques (Shen and Lamba et al., 2022 – cited in the manuscript) and this continues to be an active area of investigation for us.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Lamba and colleagues suggest a molecular mechanism to explain cell heterogeneity in cell specification during pre-implantation development. They show that embryo polarization is asynchronous. They propose that reduced CARM1 activity and upregulation of its substrate BAF155 promote early polarization and trophectoderm specification.

      Strengths:

      The authors use appropriate and validated methodology to address their scientific questions. They also report excellent live imaging. Most of the data are accompanied by careful quantifications.

      Weaknesses:

      I think this manuscript requires some more quantification, increased number of embryos in their evaluations and clearly stating the number of embryos evaluated per experiments.

      We thank the reviewer for these thoughtful comments on our work, their kind assessment of the strength of our research, and their notes on the weaknesses. We have replied to their points raised below.

      Here are some points:

      (1) It should be clearly stated in all figure legends and in the text how many cells from how many embryos were analyzed.

      We appreciate this comment to provide detailed quantification for every experiment in the paper and stating the numbers of embryos (if a whole embryo level experiment) or blastomeres used for statistical tests and displayed in the graph.

      (2) I think that the number of embryos sometimes are too low. These are mouse embryos easily accessible and the methods used are well established in this lab, so the authors should make an effort to have at least 10/15 embryos per experiment. For example "In agreement with this, hybridization chain reaction (HCR) RNA fluorescence in situ hybridization of early 8-cell stage embryos revealed that the number of CDX2 mRNA puncta was higher in polarized blastomeres with a PARD6-positive apical domain than in unpolarized blastomeres, for 5 out of 6 embryos with EP cells (Figure 3A, B)".. or the data for Figure 4, we know how many cells but now how many embryos.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment regarding the number of embryos used in the hybridization chain reaction (HCR) experiment. We agree that increasing the number of embryos could, in principle, further add statistical power. However, both first authors have since left the lab to begin their postdoctoral training or joining a company, and it is not feasible for us to generate additional embryos at this stage.

      Importantly, we believe the number of embryos included in the current manuscript is sufficient to support our conclusions, especially when considered in the context of the broader experimental design, the timing of the study, and our ethical commitment to minimizing animal use.

      Notably, the initial HCR experiment targeting Cdx2 mRNA served as a key indication that prompted further investigation of CDX2 at the protein level. These follow-up experiments were conducted with increased numbers of embryos and/or cells and are presented in Figure 3 and the associated supplementary figures (we now have 124 cells (including 23 EP cells) from 16 embryos), thereby strengthening and confirming the conclusion suggested by the HCR data.

      (3) It would be useful to see in Figure 4 an example of asymmetric cell division as done for symmetric cell division in panel 4B. This could really help the reader to understand how the authors assessed this.

      We used live imaging to track cell division patterns. Cells expressing RFP-tagged polarity proteins were observed during division to identify the resulting daughter cells. Immediately after cytokinesis, we assessed the polarity status of each daughter cell. If both daughter cells were polarized, the division was classified as symmetric; if only one was polarized, it was classified as asymmetric.

      Author response image 1.

      8-cell stage embryos expressing Ezrin-RFP (fire colour) was imaged during 8-16 cell stage division. Top panel arrows indicate a symmetric cell division in which polarity domain became partitioned into both daughter cells; bottom panel indicates asymmetric division in which the polarity domain only get inherited to one cell of the two daughter cells.

      (4) Figure 5C there is a big disproportion of the number of EP and LP identified. Could the authors increase the number of embryos quantified and see if they can increase EP numbers?

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and want to clarify an important detail: EP cells are a phenomenon with average cellular frequency of less than 10% as compared to LP cells (the other 90%). Therefore, when investigating natural embryo development without bias or exclusion, there will likely be an imbalance in the number of EP and LP cells as is the case for Figure 5C. In this case, morphological differences and clear statistical significance were seen between the shape of EP and LP cells within the cells quantified and therefore we decided not to expend further mice for this particular experiment – but we agree with the comment that in most cases additional embryos would help strength our conclusions further.

      (5) Could the authors give more details about how they mount the embryos for live imaging? With agarose or another technique? In which dishes? Overlaid with how much medium and oil? This could help other labs that want to replicate the live imaging in their labs. Also, was it a z-stack analysis? If yes, how many um per stack? Ideally, if they also know the laser power used (at least a range) it would be extremely useful.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and have provided additional detail here and in the Methods section. For live imaging our embryos, we used glass-bottom 35 mm dishes. We then fixed a small cut square of nylon mesh (5mm to 1cm width and height) onto this plate in the centre using silicon which was used as a grid (diameter of approximately 150 micrometres) for deposition of embryos. After drying of the silicon (overnight) and washing with water, the grid was overlaid with a drop of 100 microlitres of KSOM and then covered with mineral oil until this KSOM drop was submerged. After incubation under conditions for live imaging, single embryos were deposited in each ‘well’ of the grid before being placed in the microscope, which was equilibrated at the correct temperature and CO2.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Reviews):

      Weaknesses: 

      Overall I find the data presented compelling, but I feel that the number of observations is quite low (typically n=3-7 neurons, typically one per animal). While I understand that only a few slices can be obtained for the IPN from each animal, the strength of the novel findings would be more convincing with more frequent observations (larger n, more than one per animal). The findings here suggest that the authors have identified a novel mechanism for the normal function of neurotransmission in the IPN, so it would be expected to be observable in almost any animal. Thus,  it is not clear to me why the authors investigated so few neurons per slice and chose to combine different treatments into one group (e.g. Figure 2f), even if the treatments have the same expected effect.  

      This is a well taken suggestion. However, we must  point out that we do perform statistical analyses on the original datasets and we believe that our conclusions are justified as acknowledged by the Reviewer. As the Reviewer is aware,  the IPN is a small nucleus and with the slicing protocol used, we typically attain 1-2 slices per mouse that are suitable for recordings. Since most of the experiments in the manuscript deals with some form of pharmacological interrogation, we were reticent to use slices that are not naïve and therefore in general did not perform more than 1 cell recording per slice. Having said this, to comply with the Reviewer’s suggestion we have now performed additional experiments to increase the n number for certain experiments. We have amended all figures and legends to incorporate the additional data. We must point out that during the replotting of the data in the summary Figure 8i (previously Figure 7i) we noticed an error with the data representation of the TAC IPL data and have now corrected this oversight  

      Figure 2b,c. 

      500nM DAMGO effect on TAC IPL AMPAR EPSC – n increased from 5 to 9

      Figure 3g. 

      500nM DAMGO effect on CHAT IPR AMPAR EPSC – n increased from 8 to 16 Effect of CTAP on DAMGO on CHAT IPR AMPAR EPSC – n increased from 4 to 7

      Figure 3i. 

      500nm DAMGO or Met-enk effect in “silent” CHAT IPR AMPAR EPSC – n increased    from 7 to 9

      Figure 4e. 

      500nM DAMGO effect on ES coupling – Note: in the original version the n number was 5 and not 7 as written in the figure legend. We have now increased the n from 5 – 9.

      Figure 5e,f. 

      500nM DAMGO effect on TAC IPR AMPAR EPSC – n increased from 5 to 9

      Figure 7f.

      Effect of DHE on EPSC amplitude after application of DNQX/APV/4-AP or DTX-α – n increased from 7-9.

      Figure 7g.

      Emergence of nAChR EPSC after DTX – n increased from 4 to 7

      Figure 7i. 

      Effect of ambenonium on nAChR amplitude and charge – n increased from 4 to 7

      Supplementary Figure 3c and h

      Effect of DAMGO after DNQX – n increased from 4 to 7

      Effect of DNQX after DAMGO mediated potentiation – n increased from 3 to 5.

      Throughout the study (Figs. 3i, 7f and 8h in the revised manuscript)  we do indeed pool datasets that were amassed from different conditions since we were not directly investigating the possibility of any deviation in the extent of response between said treatments. For example, and as pointed out by the Reviewer, in Fig. 2F (now Fig. 3i) the use of DAMGO and met-ENK were merely employed to ascertain whether light-evoked synaptic transmission (ChATCre:ai32 mice) in cells that had no measurable EPSC could be pharmacologically “unsilenced” by mOR activation. Thus, the means by which mOR receptor was activated was not relevant to this specific question. Note: 2 more recordings are now added to this dataset (Fig. 3i) that were taken from ChATChR2/SSTCre:ai9 mice in response to the comment by this Reviewer below (“Are there baseline differences in the electrophysiological or morphological properties of these "silent" neurons compared to the responsive neurons?”).  Similarly, in the revised Fig.7f we pooled data investigating the pharmacological block of the EPSC that emerged following application of either DNQX/APV/4-AP or DNQX/APV/DTX. Low concentrations 4-AP or DTX were interchangeably employed to reveal the DNQX-insensitive EPSC that we go on to show is indeed the nAChR response. Finally, in Fig. 8h, we pooled data demonstrating a  lack of effect of DAMGO in potentiating  both the glutamatergic and cholinergic arms of synaptic transmission in the OPRM1 KO mice. Again, here we were only interested in determining whether removal of mOR expression prevented potentiation of transmission mediated by mHB ChAT neurons irrespective of neurotransmitter modality.  Thus, overall we were careful to only pool data in those instances where it  would not change the interpretation and hence conclusions reached. 

      There are also significant sex differences in nAChR expression in the IPN that might not be functionally apparent using the low n presented here. It would be helpful to know which of the recorded neurons came from each sex, rather than presenting only the pooled data.  

      As the reviewer correctly states there are veins of literature concerning a divergence, based on sex, of not only nicotinic receptor expression but also behaviors associated with nicotine addiction. However, we have reanalyzed our datasets focusing on the extent of the mOR potentiation of glutamatergic and cholinergic transmission mediated by mHB ChAT neurons in IPR  between male and female mice. Please refer to the Author response image 1 below. Although there is a possible trend towards a higher potentiation of nAChR in female mice, this was not found to be of statistical significance (see Author response image 1 below). We therefore chose not to split our data in the manuscript based on gender.

      Author response image 1.

      Comparison of the mOR (500nM DAMGO) mediated potentiation on evoked (a) AMPAR and (b) nAChR  EPSCs in IPR between male and female mice.  

      There are also some particularly novel observations that are presented but not followed up on, and this creates a somewhat disjointed story. For example, in Figure 2, the authors identify neurons in which no response is elicited by light stimulation of ChAT-neurons, but the application of DAMGO (mOR agonist) un-silences these neurons. Are there baseline differences in the electrophysiological or morphological properties of these "silent" neurons compared to the responsive neurons?  

      Unfortunately, we did not routinely measure intrinsic properties of the recorded postsynaptic neurons nor systematically recovered biocytin fills to assess morphology. Therefore, it remains unclear whether the  neurons in which there were none or minimal AMPAR-mediated EPSCs are distinct to the ones displaying measurable responses. The IPR is resident to GABAergic SST neurons that comprise the most numerous neuron type in this IPN subdivision. Although heavily outnumbered by the SST neurons there are additionally VGluT3+ glutamatergic neurons in IPN. The Reviewer is likely referring to a recent study investigating synaptic transmission specifically onto  SST+ and VGluT3+ neurons in IPN demonstrating that mHB cholinergic mediated glutamatergic input is “weaker” onto the glutamatergic neurons. Furthermore, in some instances synaptic transmission onto this latter population can be “unsilenced” by GABAB receptor activation in a similar manner to that seen with mOR activation in this manuscript when IPR neurons are blindly targeted(Stinson & Ninan, 2025).  Using a similar strategy as in this recent study(Stinson & Ninan, 2025), we now include experiments in which the ChATChR2 mouse was crossed with  a SSTCre:Ai14. This allowed for recording of postsynaptic EPSCs in directly identified SST IPR neurons. We demonstrate that DAMGO can indeed increase glutamatergic EPSCs and in 2 of the cells where light activation demonstrated no appreciable AMPAR EPSC upon maximal LED light activation, DAMGO clearly “unsilenced” transmission.  Thus, our additional analyses directly demonstrate that our original observations concerning mOR modulation extend to the mHb cholinergic AMPAR mediated input onto IPR SST neurons. This additional data is in the revised manuscript (Figure 3D-F, I). Future experimentation will be required to determine if the propensity of encountering a  “silent” input that can be converted to robust synaptic transmission by mOR differs between these two cell types. Furthermore, it will be of interest to investigate if any differences exist in the magnitude of the cholinergic input or the mOR mediated potentiation of co-transmission between postsynaptic SST GABA and glutamatergic neuronal subtypes. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public review)

      Weaknesses: 

      The genetic strategy used to target the mHb-IPN pathway (constitutive expression in all ChAT+ and Tac1+ neurons) is not specific to this projection.  

      This is an important point made. We are acutely aware that the source of the synaptic input in IPN mediated by conditional expression of ChR2 employing  using transgenic cre driver lines does not confer specificity to mHB. This is particularly relevant considering one of the novel observations here relates to  a previously unidentified functional input from TAC1 neurons to the IPR. At this juncture we would like to point the Reviewer to the publicly available Connectivity Atlas provided by the Allen Brain Institute (https://connectivity.brain-map.org/). With reference to mHB TAC1 neuronal output, targeted viral injection into the habenula of Tac1Cre mice allows conditional expression of EGFP to SP neurons as evidenced by the predominant expression of reported fluorescence in dorsal mHB (see Author response image 2 a,b below). Tracing the axonal projections to the IPN clearly demonstrates dense fibers in IPL as expected but also arborization in  IPR (Author response image 2 a,c) . This pattern is reminiscent of that seen in the transgenic Tac1Cre:ai9 or ai32 mice used in the current study (Figs. 1c, 2a, 5c). Closer inspection of the fibers in the IPR reveals putative synaptic bouton like structures as we have shown in Fig. 5a,b (Author response image 2 d below).

      Author response image 2.

      Sterotaxic viral injection into mHB pf Tac1Cre mice taken from Allen Brain connectivity atlas (Link to Connectivity Atlas for mHb SP neuronal projection pattern)

      These anatomical data suggest that part of the synaptic input to the IPR originates from mHB TAC1 neurons although we cannot fully discount additional synaptic input from other brain areas that may impinge on the IPR. Indeed, as the Reviewer points out, it is evident that other regions including the nucleus incertus send outputs to the IPN(Bueno et al., 2019; Liang et al., 2024; Lima et al., 2017). However, it is unclear if neuronal inputs from these alternate sources {Liang, 2024 #123;Lima, 2017 #33}{Bueno, 2019 #178} are glutamatergic in nature AND mediated by a TAC1/OPRM1-expressing neuronal population. Nevertheless, we have now modified text in the discussion to highlight the limitations of using a transgenic strategy (pg 12, para 1).

      In addition, a braking mechanism involving Kv1.2 has not been identified.

      It is unclear to what the Reviewer is referring to here. Although most of our experiments pertaining to the brake on cholinergic  transmission by potassium channels use low concentrations of 4-AP (50100M) which have been used to block Shaker Kv1 channels there although at these concentrations there are additional action at other K+-channels such as Kv3, for instance. However, we essentially demonstrate that a selective Kv1.1 and Kv1.2 antagonist dendrotoxin replicates the 4-AP effects. We have now also included RNAseq data demonstrating the relative expression levels of Kv1 channel mRNA in mHb ChAT neurons (KCNA1 through KCNA6; Figure 6b). The complete absence of KCNA1 yet a high expression level of KCNA2 transcripts highly suggests a central role of Kv1.2 in unmasking nAChR mediated synaptic transmission. 

      Reviewer #3 (Public review)

      Weaknesses:  

      The significance of the ratio of AMPA versus nACh EPSCs shown in Figure 6 is unclear since nAChR EPSCs measured in the K+ channel blockers are compared to AMPA EPSCs in control (presumably 4-AP would also increase AMPA EPSCs). 

      We understand the Reviewer’s concern regarding the calculation of nicotinic/AMPA ratios since they are measured under differing conditions i.e. absence and presence of 4-AP, respectively. As the reviewer correctly points point 4-AP likely increases the amplitude of the AMPA receptor mediated EPSC. However, our intention of calculating this ratio was not to ascertain a measure of relative strengths of fast glutamatergic vs cholinergic transmission onto a given postsynaptic IPN neuron per se. Rather, we used the ratio as a means to normalize the size of the nicotinic receptor EPSC to the strength of the light stimulation (using the AMPA EPSC as the normalizing factor) in each individual recording. This permits a more meaningful comparison across cells/slices/mice . We apologize for the confusion and have amended the text in the results section to reflect this (pg 9; para2).

      The mechanistic underpinnings of the most now  results are not pursued. For example, the experiments do not provide new insight into the differential effects of evoked and spontaneous glutamate/Ach release by Gi/o coupled mORs, nor the differential threshold for glutamate versus Ach release. 

      Our major goal of the current manuscript was to provide a much-needed roadmap outlining the effects of opioids in the habenulo-interpeduncular axis. Of course, a full understanding of the mechanisms underlying such complex opioid actions at the molecular level will be of great value. We feel that this is beyond the scope of this already quite result dense manuscript but will be essential if directed manipulation of the circuit is to be leveraged to alter maladaptive behaviors associated with addiction/emotion during adolescence and in adult. 

      The authors note that blocking Kv1 channels typically enhances transmitter release by slowing action potential repolarization. The idea that Kv1 channels serve as a brake for Ach release in this system would be strengthened by showing that these channels are the target of neuromodulators or that they contribute to activity-dependent regulation that allows the brake to be released. 

      The exact mechanistic underpinnings that can potentially titer Kv1.2 availability and hence nAChR transmission would be essential to shed light on potential in vivo conditions under which this arm of neurotransmission can be modulated. However, we feel that detailed mechanistic interrogation constitutes significant work but one that future studies should aim to achieve. Thus, it presently remains unclear under what physiological or pathological scenarios result in attenuation of Kv1.2 to subsequently promote nAChR mediated transmission but as mentioned in the existing discussion future work to decipher such mechanisms would be of great value.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      Overall I find this to be a very interesting and exciting paper, presenting novel findings that provide clarity for a problem that has persisted in the IPN field: that of the conundrum that light-evoked cholinergic signaling was challenging to observe despite the abundance of nAChRs in the IPN. 

      Major concerns: 

      (1) The n is quite low in most cases, and in many instances, data from one figure are replotted in another figure. Given that the findings presented here are expected in the normal condition, it should not be difficult to increase the n. A more robust number of observations would strengthen the novel findings presented here. 

      Please refer to the response to the public review above.

      (2) In general, I find the organization of the figures somewhat disjointed. Sometimes it feels as if parts of the information presented in the results are split between figures, where it would make more sense to be together in a figure. For example, all the histology for each of the lines is in Figure 1, but only ephys data for one line is included there. It would be more logical to include the histology and ephys data for each line in its own figure. It would also be helpful to show the overlap of mOR expression with Tac1-Cre and ChAT-Cre terminals in the IPN. Likewise, the summarized Tac1Cre:Ai32 IPR data is in Figure 4, but the individual data is in Figure 5. 

      We introduce both ChAT and TAC1 cre lines in Figure 1 as an overview particularly for those readers who are not entirely familiar with the distinct afferent systems operating with the habenulointerpeduncular pathway.  However, in compliance with the Reviewer’s suggestion we have now restructured the Figures. In the revised manuscript, the functional data pertaining to the various transmission modalities mediated by the distinct afferent systems impinging on the subdivision of the IPN tested are now split into their own dedicated figure as follows:

      Figure 2. 

      mOR effect on TAC1neuronal glutamatergic output in IPL.

      Figure 3. 

      mOR effect on CHAT neuronal glutamatergic output in IPR.

      Figure 5. 

      mOR effect on TAC1neuronal glutamatergic output in IPR.

      Figure 8.

      mOR effect on CHAT neuronal cholinergic output in IPC.

      Supp. Fig. 1 mOR effect on CHAT neuronal glutamatergic output in IPC.

      We thank the Reviewer for their suggestions regarding the style of the manuscript. The restructuring has now resulted in a much better flow of the presented data.

      (3) The discussion is largely satisfactory. However, a little more discussion of the integrative function of the IPN is warranted given the opposing effects of MOR activation in the Tac vs ChAT terminals, particularly in the context of both opioids and natural rewards. 

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. However, we feel the discussion is rather lengthy as is and therefore we refrained from including additional text.  

      Minor concerns: 

      (1)  The methods are missing key details. For example, the stock numbers of each of the strains of mice appear to have been left out. This is of particular importance for this paper as there are key differences between the ChAT-Cre lines that are available that would affect observed electrophysiological properties. As the authors indicate, the ChAT-ChR2 mice overexpress VAChT, while the ChAT-IRES-Cre mice do not have this problem. However, as presented it is unclear which mice are being used. 

      We apologize for the omission - the catalog numbers of the mice employed have now been included in the methods section.

      We have now clearly included in each figure panel (single trace examples and pooled data) from which mice the data are taken from – in some instances the pooled data are from the two CHAT mouse strains employed. Despite the tendency of the ChATChR2 mice to demonstrate more pronounced nAChR mediated transmission (Fig. 7h),  we justify pooling the data since we see no statistical significance in the effect of mOR activation on either potentiating AMPA or nAChR EPSCs (Please refer to response to Reviewer 2, Minor Concern point 2)

      (2) Likewise, antibody dilutions used for staining are presented as both dilution and concentration, which is not typical. 

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this inconsistency. We have amended the text in the methods to include only the working dilution for all antibodies employed in the study.

      (3) There are minor typos throughout the manuscript. 

      All typos have been corrected.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      The authors provide a thorough investigation into the subregion, and cell-type effect of mu opioid receptor (MOR) signaling on neurotransmission in the medial habenula to interpeduncular nucleus circuit (mHb-IPN). This circuit largely comprises two distinct populations of neurons: mHb substance P (Tac1+) and cholinergic (ChAT+) neurons. Corroborating prior work, the authors report that Tac1+ neurons preferentially innervate the lateral IPN (IPL) and rostral IPN (IPR), while ChAT+ neurons preferentially innervate the central IPN (IPC) and IPR. The densest expression of MOR is observed in the IPL and MOR agonists produce a canonical presynaptic depression of glutamatergic neurotransmission in this region. Interestingly, MOR signaling in the ChAT+ mHb projection to the IPR potentiates light-evoked glutamate and acetylcholine-mediated currents (EPSC), and this effect is mediated by a MOR-induced inhibition of Kv2.1 channels. 

      Major concerns: 

      (1) The method used for expressing channelrhodopsin (ChR2) into cholinergic and neurokinin neurons in the mHb (Ai32 mice crossed with Cre-driver lines) has limitations because all Tac1+/ChAT+ inputs to the IPN express ChR2 in this mouse. Importantly, the IPN receives inputs from multiple brain regions besides the IPN-containing neurons capable of releasing these neurotransmitters (PMID: 39270652). Thus, it would be important to isolate the contributions of the mHb-IPN pathway using virally expressed ChR2 in the mHb of Cre driver mice. 

      Please refer to the response to the public review above. 

      (2) Figure 4: The authors conclude that the sEPSC recorded from IPR originate from Tac1+ mHbIPR projections. However, this cannot be stated conclusively without additional experimentation. For instance, an optogenetic asynchronous release experiment. For these experiments it would also be important to express ChR2 virus in the mHb in Tac1- and ChAT-Cre mice since glutamate originating from other brain regions could contribute to a change in asynchronous EPSCs induced by DAMGO. 

      This is a well taken point. The incongruent effect of DAMGO on evoked CHAT neuronal EPSC amplitude and sEPSC frequency prompted us  to consider the the possibility of differing effect of DAMGO on a  secondary input. We agree that we do not show directly if the sEPSCs originate from a TAC1 neuronal population. Therefore, we have tempered our wording with regards the origin of the sEPSCs and  have also restructured the Figure in question moving the sEPSC data into supplemental data (Supplemental Fig. 2) 

      (3) Figure 5D: lt would be useful to provide a quantitative measure in a few mice of mOR fluorescence across development (e.g. integrated density of fluorescence in IPR). 

      We have now included mOR expression density across development  (Fig. 6). Interestingly, the adult expression levels of mOR in the IPR are essentially reached at a very early developmental age (P10) yet we see stark differences in the role of mOR activation in modulating glutamatergic transmission mediated by mHB cholinergic neurons. Note: since we processed adult tissue (i.e. >p40) for these developmental analyses we utilized these slices to also include an analysis of the relative mOR expression density specifically in adults between the subdivisions of IPN in Fig. 1.

      (4) Figure 6B: It would be useful to quantify the expression of Kcna2 in ChAT and Tac1 neurons (e.g. using FISH). 

      We thank the Reviewer for this suggestion. We have now included mRNA expression levels available from publicly available 10X RNA sequencing dataset provided by the Allen Brain Institute (Figure 7b).  

      (5) It would be informative to examine what the effects of MOR activation are on mHb projections to the (central) . 

      In response to this suggestion, we now have included  additional data in the manuscript in putative IPC cells that clearly demonstrate a similar DAMGO elicited potentiation of AMPAR EPSC to that  seen in IPR. These data are now included in the revised manuscript  (Supplemental Fig. 1; Fig. 8i). 

      (6) What is the proposed link between MOR activation and the inhibition of Kv1.2 (e.g. beta-Arrestin signaling, G beta-gamma interaction with Kv1.2, PKA inhibition?) 

      We apologize for any confusion. We do not directly test whether the potentiation of EPSCs upon mOR activation occurs via inhibition of Kv1.2.Although we have not directly tested this possibility we find it an unlikely underlying cellular mechanism, especially for the potentiation of the cholinergic arm of neurotransmission since in the presence of DNQX/APV, the activation of mOR does not result in any emergence of any nAChR EPSC (see Supplementary Fig. 3a-c)

      Minor concerns: 

      (1) Methods: Jackson lab ID# for used mouse strains is missing. 

      We apologize for this omission and have now included the mouse strain catalog numbers.

      (2) The authors use data from both ChAT-Cre x Ai32 and ChAT-ChR2 mice. It would be helpful to show some comparisons between the lines to justify merging data sets for some of the analyses as there appear to be differences between the lines (e.g. Figure 6G). 

      This is a well taken point. We have now provided a figure for the Reviewer (see below) that illustrates the lack of  significant difference between the mOR mediated potentiation of both mHB CHAT neuronal AMPAR and nAChR transmission between the two mouse lines employed despite a divergence in the extent of glutamatergic vs cholinergic transmission shown in Fig. 7g (previously Figure 6g). We have chosen not to include this data in the revised manuscript.

      Author response image 3.

      Comparison of the mOR (500nM DAMGO) mediated potentiation on evoked AMPAR (a) and nAChR (b)EPSCs in IPR between ChATCre:Ai32  and ChATChR2 mice.

      (3)  Line 154: How was it determined that the EPSC is glutamatergic? 

      We apologize for any confusion. In the revised manuscript we now clearly point to the relevant figures (see Supplementary Figs. 2a and 3) in the Results section (pg. 4, para 2; pg 7, para 1; pg 8, para2) where we determine that both the sEPSCs and ChAT mediated light evoked EPSCs recorded under baseline conditions are totally blocked by DNQX and hence are exclusively AMPAR events 

      (4) It would be helpful to discuss the differences between GABA-B mediated potentiation of mHbIPN signaling and the current data in more detail. 

      We are unclear as to what differences the Reviewer is referring to. At least from the perspective of ChAT neuronal mediated synaptic transmission, other groups (and in the current study; Fig. 7h) have clearly shown that GABA<sub>B</sub> activation markedly potentiates synaptic transmission like mOR activation. Nevertheless, based on our novel findings it would be of interest to determine whether the influence of GABA<sub>B</sub> is inhibitory onto the TAC mediated input in IPR and whether there is a developmental regulation of this effect as we demonstrate upon mOR activation. These additional comparisons between the effect of the two Gi-linked receptors may shed light onto the similarity, or lack thereof, regarding the underlying cellular mechanisms. We now have included a few sentences in the discussion to highlight this (pg 11, para 1).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      The abstract was confusing at first read due to the complex language, particularly the sentence starting with... Further, specific potassium channels... 

      The authors might want to consider simplifying the description of the experiments and the results to clarify the content of the manuscript for readers who many only read the abstract. 

      We have altered the wording of the abstract and hope it is now more reader friendly.

      The opposite effect of mOR activation on spontaneous EPSCs versus electrical or ChR2-evoked EPSCs is very interesting and raises the issue of which measure is most physiologically relevant. For example, it is unclear whether sEPSCs arise primarily from cholinergic neurons (that are spontaneously active in the slice, Figure 3), and if so, does mOR activation suppress or enhance cholinergic neuron excitability and/or recruitment by ChR2? While a full analysis of this question is beyond the scope of this manuscript, the assumption that glutamate release assayed by electrical/ChR2 evoked transmission is the most physiologically relevant might merit some discussion since sEPSCs presumably also reflect action-potential dependent glutamate release. One wonders whether mORs hyperpolarize cholinergic neurons to reduce spontaneous spiking yet enhance fiber recruitment by ChR2 or an electrical stimulus (i.e. by removing Na channel inactivation). The authors have clearly stated that they do not know where the mORs are located, and that the effects arising from disinhibition are likely complex. But they also might discuss whether glutamate release following synchronous activation of a fiber pathway by ChR2 or electrode is more or less physiologically relevant than glutamate release assayed during spontaneous activity. It seems likely that an equivalent experiment to Figure 3D, E using spontaneous spiking of IPR neurons would show that spiking is reduced by mOR activation. 

      We thank the Reviewer for this comment. As pointed it would be of interest to dissect the “network” effect of mOR activation but as the Reviewer acknowledges this is beyond the scope of the current manuscript. The Reviewer is correct in postulating that mOR activation results in hyperpolarization of mHB ChAT neurons.  A recent study(Singhal et al 2025) demonstrate that a subpopulation of ChAT neurons undergoes a reduction in firing frequency following DAMGO application. This is corroborated by our own observations although we chose not to include this data in our current manuscript (but see below).

      Additionally, the Reviewer questions whether ChR2/electrical stimulation is physiological. This is a well taken point and of course the simultaneous activation of potentially all possible axonal release sites is not the mode under which the circuit operates. Nevertheless, our data clearly demonstrates the ability of mORs to modulate release under these circumstances that must reflect an impact on spontaneous action potential driven evoked release.  Although the suggested experiment  could shed light on the synaptic outcomes of mOR receptor activation on ES coupling of downstream IPN neurons. Interpretation of the outcome would be confounded by the fact that postsynaptic IPN neurons also express mORs . Thus,  we would not be able to isolate the effects of presynaptic changes in modulating ES coupling from any direct postsynaptic effect on the recorded cell when in current clamp. 

      Together these additional sites of action of mOR (i.e. mHB ChAT somatodendritic and postsynaptic IPN neuron) only serve to further highlight the complex nature of the actions of opioids on the habenulo-interpeduncular axis warranting  future work to fully understand the physiological and pathological effects on the habenulo-interpeduncular axis as a whole.

      The idea that Kv2.1 channels serve as a brake raises the question of whether they contribute to activity-dependent action potential broadening to facilitate Ach release during trains of stimuli. 

      This is an interesting suggestion and one that we had considered ourselves. Indeed, as the Reviewer is likely aware and as mentioned in the manuscript, previous studies have shown nAChR signaling can be revealed under conditions of multiple stimulations given at relatively high frequencies.  We therefore attempted to perform high frequency stimulation (20 stimulations at 25Hz and 50Hz) in the presence of ionotropic glutamatergic receptor antagonists DNQX and APV. We have now included this data in the revised manuscript (Supplementary Fig 3b). As shown, this failed to engage nAChR mediated synaptic transmission in our hands. Interestingly there is evidence from reduced expression systems demonstrating that Kv1.2 channels undergo use-dependent potentiation(Baronas et al., 2015) in contrast to that seen with other K+-channels. Whether this is the case for the axonal Kv1.2 channels on mHB axonal terminals in situ is not known but this may explain the inability to reveal nAChR EPSCs upon delivery of such stimulation paradigms.  

      References 

      Baronas, V. A., McGuinness, B. R., Brigidi, G. S., Gomm Kolisko, R. N., Vilin, Y. Y., Kim, R. Y., … Kurata, H. T. (2015). Use-dependent activation of neuronal Kv1.2 channel complexes. J Neurosci, 35(8), 3515-3524. doi:10.1523/JNEUROSCI.4518-13.2015

      Bueno, D., Lima, L. B., Souza, R., Goncalves, L., Leite, F., Souza, S., … Metzger, M. (2019). Connections of the laterodorsal tegmental nucleus with the habenular-interpeduncular-raphe system. J Comp Neurol, 527(18), 3046-3072. doi:10.1002/cne.24729

      Liang, J., Zhou, Y., Feng, Q., Zhou, Y., Jiang, T., Ren, M., … Luo, M. (2024). A brainstem circuit amplifies aversion. Neuron. doi:10.1016/j.neuron.2024.08.010

      Lima, L. B., Bueno, D., Leite, F., Souza, S., Goncalves, L., Furigo, I. C., … Metzger, M. (2017). Afferent and efferent connections of the interpeduncular nucleus with special reference to circuits involving the habenula and raphe nuclei. J Comp Neurol, 525(10), 2411-2442. doi:10.1002/cne.24217

      Singhal, S. M., Szlaga, A., Chen, Y. C., Conrad, W. S., & Hnasko, T. S. (2025). Mu-opioid receptor activation potentiates excitatory transmission at the habenulo-peduncular synapse. Cell Rep, 44(7), 115874. doi:10.1016/j.celrep.2025.115874

      Stinson, H.E., & Ninan, I. (2025). GABA(B) receptor-mediated potentiation of ventral medial habenula glutamatergic transmission in GABAergic and glutamatergic interpeduncular nucleus neurons. bioRxiv doi.10.1101/2025.01.03.631193

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary: 

      Seon and Chung's study investigates the hypothesis that individuals take more risks when observed by others because they perceive others to be riskier than themselves. To test this, the authors designed an innovative experimental paradigm where participants were informed that their decisions would be observed by a "risky" player and a "safe" player. Participants underwent fMRI scanning during the task. 

      Strengths: 

      The research question is sound, and the experimental paradigm is well-suited to address the hypothesis. 

      Weaknesses:

      I have several concerns. Most notably, the manuscript is difficult to read in parts, and I suggest a thorough revision of the writing for clarity, as some sections are nearly incomprehensible. Additionally, key statistical details are missing, and I have reservations about the choice of ROIs.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s interest in and positive assessment of our work, and we thank the reviewer for the constructive feedback. In the current revision, we have revised the manuscript for clarity and added previously omitted statistical details. Furthermore, in the response letter, we have also provided additional explanations to clarify our approach, including the rationale for the choice and use of ROIs.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      This study aims to investigate how social observation influences risky decision-making. Using a gambling task, the study explored how participants adjusted their risk-taking behavior when they believed their decisions were being observed by either a risk-averse or risk-seeking partner. The authors hypothesized that individuals would simulate the choices of their observers based on learned preferences and integrate these simulated choices into their own decision-making. In addition to behavioral experiments, the study employed computational modeling to formalize decision processes and fMRI to identify the neural underpinnings of risky decision-making under social observation. 

      Strengths: 

      The study provides a fresh perspective on social influence in decision-making, moving beyond the simple notion that social observation leads to uniformly riskier behavior. Instead, it shows that individuals adjust their choices depending on their beliefs about the observer's risk preferences, offering a more nuanced understanding of how social contexts shape decision-making. The authors provide evidence using comprehensive approaches, including behavioral data based on a well-designed task, computational modeling, and neuroimaging. The three models are well selected to compare at which level (e.g., computing utility, risk preference shift, and choice probability) the social influence alters one's risky decision-making. This approach allows for a more precise understanding of the cognitive processes underlying decision-making under social observation. 

      Weaknesses: 

      While the neuroimaging results are generally consistent with the behavioral and computational findings, the strength of the neural evidence could be improved. The authors' claims about the involvement of the TPJ and mPFC in integrating social information are plausible, but further analysis, such as model comparisons at the neuroimaging level, is needed to decisively rule out alternative interpretations that other computational models suggest. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s interest in and positive assessment of our work, and we thank the reviewer for the constructive feedback. In the current revision, we have included neural results from additional analyses, which we believe provide stronger support for our proposed computational model.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      This is an important paper using a novel paradigm to examine how observation affects the social contagion of risk preferences. There is a lot of interest in the field about the mechanisms of social influence, and adding in the factor of whether observation also influences these contagion effects is intriguing.

      Strengths:

      (1) There is an impressive combination of a multi-stage behavioural task with computational modelling and neuroimaging.

      (2) The analyses are well conducted and the sample size is reasonable. 

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) Anatomically it would be helpful to more explicitly distinguish between dmPFC and vmPFC. Particularly at the end of the introduction when mPFC and vmPFC are distinguished, as the vmPFC is in the mPFC. 

      (2) The authors' definition of ROIs could be elaborated on further. They suggest that peaks are selected from neurosynth for different terms, but were there not multiple peaks identified within a functional or anatomical brain area? This section could be strengthened by confirming with anatomical ROIs where available, such as the atlases here http://www.rbmars.dds.nl/lab/CBPatlases.html and the Harvard-Oxford atlases. 

      (3) How did the authors ensure there were enough trials to generate a reliable BOLD signal? The scanned part of the study seems relatively short. 

      (4) It would be helpful to add whether any brain areas survived whole-brain correction. 

      (5) There is a concern that mediation cannot be used to make causal inferences and much larger samples are needed to support claims of mediation. The authors should change the term mediation in order to not imply causality (they could talk about indirect effects instead) and highlight that the mediation analyses are exploratory as they would not be sufficiently powered (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2843527/). 

      (6) The authors may want to speculate on lifespan differences in this susceptibility to risk preferences given recent evidence that older adults are relatively more susceptible to impulsive social influence (Zhu et al, 2024, comms psychology). 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s interest in and positive assessment of our work, and we thank the reviewer for the constructive feedback. In the response letter below, we address each of the reviewer’s comments, including clarifications regarding the ROIs and the limitations of the current study in interpreting the results.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The neuroimaging hypotheses seem post hoc to me. First, the term "social inference" is used very loosely. In line 103 the authors mentioned that TPJ has been reported to be involved in inferring other's intentions and learning about others. However, in their task, it is not clear where inference is needed. All participants need to do is recall others' "preferences", rather than inferring a hidden variable or hidden intention. In addition, in some of the studies that the authors have cited (e.g., Park et al. 2021), the hippocampus is the focus of the inference, which gets no mention here.

      How does solving this task require inference (as defined by the authors: inferring others' intentions)? And why do they choose TPJ while inference is not needed in this task?

      We regret any confusion and would like to take this chance to clarify our hypothesis on social inference. As the reviewer pointed out, participants were indeed instructed to predict their choices, through which we expected them to learn the demonstrators’ preferences. Our computational model suggests that during the main phase of the task, i.e., the Observed phase, participants simulated others’ choices based on these previously learned risk preferences of others. The gamble choices they encountered (payoffs and associated probabilities) did not overlap with those in the Learning phase, and therefore, we expected that the cognitive process triggered by the social context involved active simulation—what we describe as making inference about others—rather than simple ‘recall’ of previously learned information. In line with this reasoning, we hypothesized that the TPJ, a brain region previously implicated in simulating others’ actions and intentions, would play a key role during the Observed phase.

      Regarding the role of the hippocampus, the paper we cited by BoKyung Park et al. (2021), titled “The role of right temporoparietal junction in processing social prediction error across relationship contexts”, highlights the involvement of the rTPJ but does not mention the hippocampus. We are aware of the study by Seongmin A. Park et al. (2021), “Inferences on a multidimensional social hierarchy use a grid-like code”, which shows the involvement of the hippocampus and entorhinal cortex in making inferences about multidimensional social hierarchies; we believe the reviewer may have mistakenly assumed that we cited this article. As the study showed, the involvement of the hippocampus—and the use of its grid-like representation of social information—is likely tied to the multidimensional nature of task states. In our study, the hippocampus was not included as an ROI because we had no specific rationale to hypothesize that such grid-like representations would be recruited by our task.

      (2) Social influence can be motivated informationally (to improve accuracy) or normatively (to be aligned with others). To me, it seems that the authors have studied the latter, because, first, there is no objectively correct response in this task and second, because participants changed their risk preference according to the preference of the observing partner. This distinction has not been made throughout the manuscript. This is important because the two process (information and normative) are supported by different neural processes and it is extremely useful to understand neural basis of which process the authors are studying.

      We thank the reviewer for the opportunity to clarify the anticipated role of social influence in our study. As the reviewer pointed out, the gambling task used in our task does not have objectively correct or incorrect answers, and naturally, any social influence present during the task would align with normative social influence. To clarify this point, we have revised the discussion section as follows:

      [Page 9, Line 345]

      Observational learning and mimicry of others’ behavior are patterns commonly found in social animals, including nonhuman primates (Van de Waal et al., 2013). Such behaviors are thought to be driven either by a motivation to acquire additional information (‘informational conformity’) or by a motivation to align with group norm (‘normative conformity’), even when doing so does not necessarily lead to better outcomes (e.g., higher accuracy) (Cialdini & Goldstein, 2004). Given that there are no objectively correct or incorrect answers in the gambling task used in our study, the observed social influence is more consistent with normative conformity. However, we cannot rule out the possibility that individuals developed false beliefs about a particular observing partner—namely, that the partner had greater control over or insight into the gambling task. Future studies are needed to directly investigate whether individuals’ beliefs about others modulate informational social influence—that is, their motivation to use social information to gain additional insight by inferring others’ potential choices.

      (3) From Line 160 onward, the authors report several findings without providing any effect sizes or statistics. Please add effect size and statistics for each finding.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We have now added the corresponding effect sizes and statistical values for the reported findings, beginning from Line 160 in the revised manuscript.

      (4) Line 270: "In particular, bilateral TPJ, brain regions not implicated in the Solo phase, positively tracked trial-by-trial model-estimated decision probabilities". How can the authors conclude that TPJ is not involved in the solo phase? As far as I understood from the text, TPJ was not included as one of the ROIs for analysis of the Solo phase. If it was included, it should be mentioned in the text and there should be a direct comparison between the effect sizes of the solo and the observer phase. If not, "not implicated in the Solo phase" is not justified and should be removed.

      We apologize for the confusion. As the reviewer correctly pointed out, the TPJ was not included among the ROIs in our analysis of the Solo phase data; therefore, its involvement during the Solo phase was never directly assessed using an ROI-based approach.

      To examine brain responses during the Observed phase, we first assessed whether regions that tracked decision probabilities during the Solo phase—vmPFC, vStr, and dACC—were also engaged in the Observed phase. The involvement of the TPJ during the Observed phase was revealed through a subsequent whole-brain analysis. To clarify this point, we now have revised the corresponding part as follows:

      [Page 8, Line 276]

      In particular, bilateral TPJ positively, brain regions not implicated in the Solo phase, tracked trial-by-trial model-estimated decision probabilities

      à Notably, bilateral TPJ showed significant positive tracking of decision probabilities ~

      (5) I am a bit puzzled about the PPI analysis. Is the main finding increased connectivity within mPFC in the observing condition? PPI is often done between two separate brain regions. I am not sure what it means that connectivity within mPFC increases in one condition compared to another. What was the motivation for this analysis? Can you also please explain what it means?

      As the reviewer noted, psychophysiological interaction (PPI) analyses examine functional connectivity between brain regions as modulated by a psychological factor. To clarify our result, the reported ‘mPFC-mPFC connectivity’ refers to functional connectivity between the mPFC region responsive to the presence of an observing partner and an adjacent, anatomically distinct region within the mPFC. Note that we have revised the manuscript to refer to this region more specifically as the dorsomedial prefrontal cortex (dmPFC). Please see our response to Reviewer 3, Comment 1, for further details.

      During the Observed phase of our task, social information was processed at two distinct time points. First, at the beginning of each decision trial, individuals were cued with the presence (or absence) of an observing partner (‘Partner presentation’). Second, the gamble options, as well as the observing partner’s identity, were revealed (‘Options revealed’). Because participants had previously learned about the observing partner’s risk preferences, we expected them to simulate the choice the partner would likely make. We hypothesized that if individuals indeed simulated the partner’s choice and incorporated this information into their decision-making process, the brain region involved in recognizing the partner’s presence (dmPFC<sub>contrast</sub>) would be functionally connected to the region responsible for integrating social information into the final decision (TPJ). Our results showed that the two regions were functionally connected via an indirect path through an anatomically adjacent cluster within the mPFC (dmPFC<sub>PPI</sub>). Given that the recognition of the partner’s presence and the simulation of their choice occurred at two distinct time points, we interpreted the functional connectivity between the two dmPFC clusters (dmPFC<sub>contrast</sub> and dmPFC<sub>PPI</sub>) as evidence that the dmPFC<sub>PPI</sub>) remained engaged during the decision process to support simulation, rather than being involved solely in the passive recognition of the social context (i.e., observed vs not observed). Note that, consistent with this interpretation, functional connectivity was stronger in individuals who showed greater reliance on social information ('Social reliance' parameter in our model).

      To avoid confusion, we have now labeled the two dmPFC clusters as dmPFC<sub>contrast</sub>—the seed region identified at partner presentation—and dmPFC<sub>PPI</sub>—the target region identified in the PPI analysis.

      [Page 8, Line 284]

      This cue was intended to dissociate neural responses to the social context per se (i.e., the presence of an observing partner), which we hypothesized would initiate social processing, from the neural processes involved in incorporating this information during the subsequent decision-making phase.

      [Page 8, Line 291]

      We tested whether the dmPFC was also involved in incorporating social information during the decision process under social observation, particularly among individuals who relied more heavily on simulating others’ behavior.

      [Page 8, Line 297]

      We confirmed that the functional connectivity between the dmPFC<sub>contrast</sub> which is sensitive to cues regarding the presence of an observing partner, and its adjacent, anatomically distinct region within the dmPFC (‘dmPFC<sub>PPI</sub>’ hereafter; x = 3, y = 50, z = 5, k<sub>E</sub> = .74, cluster-level P<sub>FWE, SVC</sub> = 0.011; Fig. 4a, b, Table S5) was positively associated with individuals’ social reliance.

      (6) In Line 107 the authors say "excitatory stimulation of the TPJ improved social cognition". Improved social cognition is too general and unspecific. Please be more specific.

      We agree that the term ‘social cognition’ was too general and unspecific. In the revised manuscript, we have specified that the improvement was observed in tasks specifically involving the control of self-other representation, as demonstrated by Santiesteban et al. (2012).

      [Page 4, Line 106]

      Corroborating with these neuroimaging data, excitatory stimulation of the TPJ improved social cognition (Santiesteban et al., 2012),~

      à Corroborating these neuroimaging findings, excitatory stimulation of the TPJ improved social cognition involving the control of self-other representation (Santiesteban et al., 2012),~

      Writing:

      We thank the reviewer for their thorough evaluation of our manuscript. We have now made the necessary revisions in accordance with the provided comments.

      (7) Line 75: "one risky options" should be one risky option.

      [Page 3, Line 74]

      between one safe (i.e., guaranteed payoff) and one risky options.

      between a safe option (i.e., guaranteed payoff) and a risky option.

      (8) Line 82: were given with the same set of gamble should be "were given the same set of gamble".

      [Page 3, Line 81]

      In the third phase (‘Observed phase’), individuals were given with the same set of gamble choices they faced in the Solo phase,

      In the third phase (‘Observed phase’), individuals were given the same set of gamble choices they faced in the Solo phase,~

      (9) Line 63: and that the extent of such influence depends on the identity of the observer. It is not clear what the authors mean by the "identity of observer". Does it mean the preference of the observer?

      Van Hoorn et al. (2018) showed that the degree of social influence varies depending on whether individuals are being observed by parents or by peers. While one might attribute this difference to divergent preferences typically held by parents and peers, it is important to note that other factors may also differ between these social groups. To avoid overinterpretation while preserving the original meaning, we have revised the sentence as follows:

      [Page 3, Line 61]

      However, recent studies showed that the unidirectional influence of social others’ presence may be also observed in adults (Otterbring, 2021), and that the extent of such influence depends on the identity of the observer (Van Hoorn et al., 2018).  

      However, recent studies showed that the unidirectional influence of social others’ presence can also be observed in adults (Otterbring, 2021), and that the extent of this influence depends on the observer’s identity—specifically, whether the observer is a parent or a peer (Van Hoorn et al., 2018).

      (10) Line 103: "including inferring others' intention and in learning about others." An "in" is missing right before inferring.

      [Page 4, Line 101]

      The temporoparietal junction (TPJ) is another region known to play an important role in social cognitive functions, including inferring others’ intention and in learning about others (Behrens et al., 2008; Boorman et al., 2013; Charpentier et al., 2020; Park et al., 2021; Samson et al., 2004; Saxe & Kanwisher, 2003; Saxe & Kanwisher, 2013; Van Overwalle, 2009; Young et al., 2010).

      The temporoparietal junction (TPJ) is another region known to play an important role in a range of social cognitive functions, including simulating others’ intention and choices, as well as learning about others (Behrens et al., 2008; Boorman et al., 2013; Charpentier et al., 2020; Park et al., 2021; Samson et al., 2004; Saxe & Kanwisher, 2003; Saxe & Kanwisher, 2013; Van Overwalle, 2009; Young et al., 2010).

      (11) 106: "Corroborating with these neuroimaging data." It should be "corroborating these neuroimaging data".

      [Page 4, Line 106]

      Corroborating with these neuroimaging data, ~

      Corroborating these neuroimaging findings, ~

      (12) Lines 113-115. It is not clear what the authors are trying to say here.

      We have now revised the sentence as follows:

      [Page 4, Line 112]

      We hypothesized that even if others’ choices are not explicitly presented, simple presence of social others may trigger inference about others’ potential choices, and the same set of brain regions will play an important role in value-based decision-making.

      We hypothesized that, even in the absence of explicit information about others’ choices, the mere presence of social others could lead participants to conform to the option they believe others would choose. To do so, participants would need to simulate others’ potential choices, particularly when option values vary across trials. As a result, we propose that the same brain regions involved in simulating others’ decisions would also be engaged during value-based decision-making in the presence of social observers.

      (13) Line 151: This sentence is too long and hard to follow:

      We have now revised the sentence as follows:

      [Page 5, Line 154]

      Furthermore, individuals’ prediction responses on subsequent 10 prediction trials where no feedback was provided (Fig. 2b) as well as self-reports about the perceived riskiness of the partners collected at the end of the Learning phase (Fig. 1d) consistently showed that they were able to distinguish one partner from the other, and correctly estimate the partners’ risk preferences (Predicted risk preference: t(42) = -11.46, P = 1.66e-14; Self-report: t(42) = -35.83, P = 4.10e-33).

      Furthermore, individuals’ prediction responses during the subsequent 10 trials without feedback consistently indicated that they could distinguish between the two partners and accurately estimate each partner’s risk preferences (t(42) = -11.46, P = 1.66e-14; Fig. 2b). Self-reported ratings of the partners’ perceived riskiness, collected after the Learning phase, further supported this finding (t(42) = -35.83, P = 4.10e-33; Fig. 1d).

      (14) Line 178: This sentence is very hard to follow. I am not sure what the authors were trying to say here. Please clarify.

      We have now revised the sentence as follows:

      [Page 5, Line 183]

      Various previous studies examined the impacts of social context on decision-making processes, but the suggested mechanisms by which individuals were affected by the social information depended on how the information was presented.

      à Previous studies have shown that social context can influence decision-making processes. However, the underlying mechanisms proposed have varied depending on how the social information was presented.

      (15) Line 183: "when individuals were given with the chances" should be "when individuals were given the chance".

      [Page 5, Line 187]

      On the contrary, when individuals were given with the chances~

      On the contrary, when individuals were given the chances~

      (16) Line 192: "are sensitive to the identity of the currently observing partner...". Do the authors mean are sensitive to the preferences of the currently observing partner? If so, please clarify, it is hard to follow.

      We have now revised the sentence as follows:

      [Page 5, Line 195]

      We hypothesized that if individuals are sensitive to the identity of the currently observing partner, they would take into account the learned preferences of others in computing their choices rather than simply in guiding the direction how to change their own preferences.

      à We hypothesized that if individuals are sensitive to the learned preferences of the observing partner, they would use this information to simulate the partner’s likely choices, rather than simply aligning their own preferences with those of the partner.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The current neuroimaging findings appear to support the decision processes of all three models. I recommend that the authors provide more detailed evidence of model comparisons in the neuroimaging analysis. This should go beyond simply comparing the goodness of fit of neural activity.

      We acknowledge that neuroimaging data alone often do not provide conclusive evidence for specific information processing. In our study, we examined brain regions that track decision probabilities and are associated with social cognition, such as simulating others’ choice tendencies. Because these processes are general and not tied to a specific computational model, neural responses supporting the occurrence of such processes cannot be used to rule out alternative decision models. For this reason, our approach prioritized a rigorous behavioral model comparison as a critical first step before probing the neural substrates underlying the proposed mechanism. Our behavioral model comparisons, including both quantitative fit indices and qualitative pattern predictions, indicated that the proposed model best accounted for participants' decision patterns across task conditions.

      More importantly, to further validate the model, we conducted a model recovery analysis (see Fig. S2b in SI), which confirmed that our model can be reliably distinguished from alternative accounts even when behavioral differences are subtle. This result suggests that our model captures unique and meaningful characteristics of the decision process that are not equally well explained by competing models.

      With this behavioral foundation, our neuroimaging analyses were designed not to serve as independent model arbiters, but rather to examine whether brain activity in regions of interest reflected the computations specified by the best-fitting model. We believe this two-step approach—first establishing behavioral validity, then linking model-derived variables to neural data—offers a principled framework for identifying the cognitive and neural mechanisms of decision-making.

      Nevertheless, per the reviewer’s suggestion, we further examined whether there is neural encoding of both the participant’s own utility and the observer’s utility—serving as potential neural evidence to differentiate our model from the two alternative models. Please see below for our response to Reviewer 2’s Comment (2).

      (2) Specifically, if participants are combining their own and simulated choices at the level of choice probability, we would expect to see neural encoding of both their own utility and the observer's utility. These may be observed in different areas of the mPFC, as demonstrated by Nicolle et al. (Neuron, 2012). In that study, decisions simulating others' choices were associated with activity in the dorsal mPFC, while one's own decisions were encoded in the vmPFC. On the contrary, if the brain encodes decision values based on the shifted risk preference, rather than encoding each decision's value in separate brain areas, this would support the alternative model.

      We thank the reviewer for this constructive comment. In our Social reliance model, we assumed that the decision probability based on an individual’s own risk preferences, as well as that based on the observing partner’s risk preferences, both contribute to the individual’s final choice. As the reviewer suggested, neural evidence that differentiates our model from the two alternative models—the Risk preference change model and the Other-conferred utility model—would involve demonstrating neural encoding of both the participant’s own utility and the observer’s utility.

      The utility differences between chosen and unchosen options from the two perspectives—self and observer—were highly correlated, preventing us from including both as regressors in the same design matrix. Instead, we defined ROIs along the ventral-to-dorsal axis of the mPFC, and examined whether each ROI more strongly reflected one’s own utility or that of the observer. Based on the meta-analysis by Clithero and Rangel (2014), we defined the most ventral mPFC ROI (ROI1) as a 10 mm-radius sphere centered at coordinate [x=-3, y=41, z=-7], a region previously associated with subjective value. From this ventral seed, we defined four additional spherical ROIs (10 mm radius each) at 12 mm intervals along the ventral-to-dorsal axis, resulting in five ROIs in total: ROI2 [x=-3, y=41, z=5], ROI3 [x=-3, y=41, z=17], ROI4 [x=-3, y=41, z=29], ROI5 [x=-3, y=41, z=41].

      Consistent with Nicolle et al. (2012), the representation of one’s own utility (labelled as ‘Own subjective value’) and that of the observer (‘Observer’s subjective value’) was organized along the ventral-to-dorsal axis of the mPFC. Specifically, utility signals from the participant’s own perspective (SV<sub>chosen, self</sub> – SV<sub>unchosen, self</sub>) were most prominently represented in the ventral-most ROIs (blue), whereas utility signals from the observer’s perspective (SV<sub>chosen, observer</sub> – SV<sub>unchosen, observer</sub>) were most strongly represented in the dorsal-most ROIs (orange).

      (3) Additionally, the authors may be able to detect neural signals related to conflict when the decisions of the individual and the observer differ, compared to when the decisions are congruent. These neural signatures would only be present if social influences are integrated at the choice level, as suggested by the authors.

      If individuals simulate the choices that others might make, they may compare them with the choices they would have made themselves. To investigate this possibility, we categorized task trials as Conflict or No-conflict trials based on greedy choice predictions derived from a softmax decision rule. Conflict trials were those in which the choice predicted from the participant’s own risk preference differed from that predicted for the observer, whereas No-conflict trials involved the same predicted choice from both perspectives. A contrast between Conflict and No-conflict trials revealed that the dACC and dlPFC—regions previously associated with conflict monitoring and cognitive control (Shenhav et al., 2013)—were sensitive to differences in choice tendencies between the self and observer perspectives.

      Author response image 1.

      dACC and dlPFC are associated with the discrepancy between participants’ own choice tendencies and those of observing partners, as estimated based on prior beliefs about the partners’ risk preferences.

      As the reviewer suggested, these results provide evidence in support of the Social Reliance model, which posits that participants simulate the observer's choice and integrate it with their own.

      (4) Incorporating these additional analyses would provide stronger evidence for distinguishing between the models.

      We again thank the reviewer for these constructive suggestions. Based on the new set of analyses and results, we have made the necessary revisions as noted above. We agree that these revisions provide stronger evidence for distinguishing between the models.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Anatomically it would be helpful to more explicitly distinguish between dmPFC and vmPFC. Particularly at the end of the introduction when mPFC and vmPFC are distinguished, as the vmPFC is in the mPFC.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion regarding the anatomical distinction between the dmPFC and vmPFC, particularly in relation to our use of the term “mPFC.” We acknowledge that the dmPFC and vmPFC are subregions of the broader mPFC. In our original manuscript, we referred to one region as mPFC in line with prior studies highlighting its role in social cognition and contextual processing (Behrens et al., 2008; Sul et al., 2015; Wittmann et al., 2016). However, in response to the reviewer’s comment and to more clearly distinguish this region from the ventral portion of the mPFC (i.e., vmPFC), which is canonically associated with subjective valuation, we have now revised the manuscript to refer to this region as the dmPFC. This terminology better reflects its association with social cognition, including model-estimated social reliance and sensitivity to social cues in our study.

      (2) The authors' definition of ROIs could be elaborated on further. They suggest that peaks are selected from neurosynth for different terms, but were there not multiple peaks identified within a functional or anatomical brain area? This section could be strengthened by confirming with anatomical ROIs where available, such as the atlases here http://www.rbmars.dds.nl/lab/CBPatlases.html and the Harvard-Oxford atlases.

      We appreciate the opportunity to clarify how our ROIs were defined. To identify the ROIs, we drew upon both prior literature and results from a term-based meta-analysis using Neurosynth. For each meta-map, we applied an FDR-corrected threshold of p < 0.01 and a cluster extent threshold of k ≥ 100 voxels to identify distinct functional clusters. For each cluster, we constructed a spherical ROI (radius = 10 mm) centered on its center of gravity. Note that for each anatomically distinct brain region, only a single center of gravity was identified and used to define the ROI. The resulting ROIs were subsequently used for small volume correction (SVC) in the second-level fMRI analyses.

      For brain regions associated with decision-making processes, we obtained a meta-analytic activation map associated with the term “decision” from Neurosynth. After applying an FDR-corrected threshold of p < 0.001 and a cluster extent threshold of k ≥ 100 voxels, we identified five distinct clusters: vmPFC [x = -3, y = 38, z = -10]; right vStr [x = 12, y = 11, z = -7]; left vStr [x = -12, y = 8, z = -7]; dACC [x = 3, y = 26, z = 44]; and left Insula [x = -30, y = 23, z = -1]. To identify brain regions involved in decision-making under social observation, we used the Neurosynth meta-map associated with the term “social”, applying the same criteria (FDR p < 0.001, k ≥ 100). This analysis revealed several clusters, including bilateral TPJ: right TPJ [x = 51, y = -52, z = 14]; left TPJ [x = -51, y = -58, z = 17]. To isolate brain regions more specifically associated with social processing rather than valuation, we also constructed a conjunction map using the meta-maps for the terms “social” and “value.” We identified clusters present in the “social” map, but not in the “value” map. This analysis yielded, among others, a cluster in the dmPFC [x = 0, y = 50, z = 14].

      To clarify our ROI analysis methods, we have now revised the manuscript to include more detailed information about the procedures used, as follows:

      [Page 19, Line 746]

      Region-of-interest (ROI) analyses. To define ROIs for the neural analyses conducted in the Observed phase, we used significant clusters identified during the Solo phase. Specifically, regions showing significant activation for Prob(chosen) in the DM0 (thresholded at P < 0.001) were selected as ROIs. Three ROI clusters were defined: the vStr (peak voxel at [x = 3, y = 14, z = -10], k<sub>E</sub> = 9), vmPFC (peak voxel at [x = –3, y = 62, z = –13], k<sub>E</sub> = 99), and dACC (peak voxel at [x = 12, y = 32, z = 29], k<sub>E</sub> = 118). These ROIs were then applied in the Observed phase analyses to test whether similar neural representations are also engaged in social contexts.

      Term-based meta-analytic maps from Neurosynth for small volume correction. To reduce the likelihood of false positives arising from random significant activations and to enhance sensitivity within regions of theoretical interest, small volume correction (SVC) was applied using term-based meta-analytic maps from Neurosynth. This approach allows for hypothesis-driven correction by restricting statistical testing to anatomically and functionally defined ROI. Specifically, three meta-analytic maps were generated using Neurosynth’s term-based analyses (Yarkoni et al., 2011), with a false discovery rate (FDR) corrected P < 0.01 and a cluster size > 100 voxels. For each resulting cluster, we defined a spherical ROI with a 10 mm radius centered on the cluster’s center of gravity. For each anatomically distinct brain region, only a single center of gravity was identified and used to define the corresponding ROI.

      First, to identify regions encoding final decision probabilities during the Solo phase and enhance sensitivity, we used the meta-map associated with the term “decision” to identify neural substrates of value-based decision-making. This yielded three clusters: vmPFC ([x = -3, y = 38, z = -10]), vStr ([x = 12, y = 11, z = -7]), and dACC ([x = 3, y = 26, z = 44]) (Fig. 3a, S7). Second, to examine social processing during the Observed phase, we used the meta-map associated with the term “social” to identify brain regions typically involved in social cognition. This analysis revealed clusters, including the rTPJ ([x = 51, y = -52, z = 14]) and lTPJ ([x = -51, y = -58, z = 17]) (Fig. 3c, S8a). Third, to define an ROI involved in processing social cues independent of valuation, we used a meta-map associated with “social” but excluding “value”, isolating regions specific to non-valuation-related social cognition. This analysis revealed a cluster, including the dmPFC ([x = 0, y = 50, z = 14]) (Fig. 3d, 4a, S8b).

      (3) How did the authors ensure there were enough trials to generate a reliable BOLD signal? The scanned part of the study seems relatively short.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concern regarding the number of trials and the potential implications for the reliability of the resulting BOLD signals. While we did not conduct formal statistical tests to determine the optimal number of trials, our task design, in general, followed well-established principles in functional neuroimaging. Specifically, we employed a jittered event-related design and used both temporal and dispersion derivatives in the GLM analyses. These strategies are widely recognized for enhancing the efficiency of BOLD signal deconvolution and improving model fit by accounting for inter-subject and inter-regional variability in the hemodynamic response function (HRF). Furthermore, the number of trials per condition in our study was comparable to those reported in previous publications (20-30 trials) that employed similar gambling paradigms to examine individual differences in the neural substrates of value-based decision-making (Chung et al., 2015; Chung et al., 2020).

      (4) It would be helpful to add whether any brain areas survived whole-brain correction.

      No brain regions survived whole-brain correction. Nevertheless, as described in the introduction, we had strong a priori hypotheses. Based on these hypotheses, we defined term-based ROIs using Neurosynth, and conducted small volume correction analyses. Per the reviewer’s suggestion, we have added information indicating that no brain regions survived whole-brain correction, as follows:

      [Page 8, Line 281]

      No additional regions survived whole-brain correction.

      (5) There is a concern that mediation cannot be used to make causal inferences and much larger samples are needed to support claims of mediation. The authors should change the term mediation in order to not imply causality (they could talk about indirect effects instead) and highlight that the mediation analyses are exploratory as they would not be sufficiently powered (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2843527/).

      We acknowledge the reviewer’s concerns regarding the causal interpretation of mediation analysis results. Per this comment, we have revised the manuscript as follows to avoid overinterpreting these results and to refrain from implying any causal inference.

      [Page 9, Line 327]

      Given that our sample size is smaller than the recommended threshold for detecting mediation effects (Fritz & MacKinnon, 2007), this significant indirect effect should be interpreted with caution, particularly with respect to causal inference.

      (6) The authors may want to speculate on lifespan differences in this susceptibility to risk preferences given recent evidence that older adults are relatively more susceptible to impulsive social influence (Zhu et al, 2024, comms psychology).

      We thank the reviewer for the thoughtful suggestion—we believe the referenced work is Zhilin Su et al. (2024). As noted in our manuscript, all participants in the current study were young adults aged between 18 and 29 years. Given this limited age range, our dataset does not provide sufficient variability to directly examine age-related differences across the lifespan. However, we are planning a follow-up study using the same task with older adult participants, which we believe will provide a valuable opportunity to address this important gap in understanding susceptibility to social influence across the lifespan.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for authors):

      (1) Motivation for studying SUL1 in RLS

      Considering that the regulation of cellular metabolism in response to nutrient availability is crucial for cell survival and lifespan, and several organic nutrient transporters have also been implicated in the mediation of aging, we believe that transporters of specific nutrients can transduce the signal downstream to control genes responsible for survival. However, the impact of inorganic nutrient transporters, including phosphate and sulfate, on longevity remains largely unexplored. And another work of our group utilized a LASSO model derived from multi-omics data related to yeast aging, identifying SUL1 as a key candidate for regulating lifespan, which aroused our interest.

      (2) Discrepancy with prior RLS data (PMID: 26456335)​​

      Previous literature (PMID: 26456335) reported a limited number of experimental cells (n=25), which may have contributed to the observed variability in results. To enhance the reliability of our work, we have expanded the number of experimental cells for the sul1Δ strain to 400 (see Figure 1A). In contrast, the lifespan data for other mutant strains have been increased to 200 (see Figure 1B). This confirms the reproducibility of the lifespan extension observed in the sul1Δ strain.

      (3) Mechanistic link between sulfate transport and lifespan​​

      Sulfate absorption assays were performed on the WT, SUL1Δ, SUL2Δ, and SUL1<sup>E427Q</sup> strains (Figure 1C). Compared to the wild type (WT), the SUL1Δ, SUL2Δ, and SUL1<sup>E427Q</sup> strains exhibited delayed sulfate intracellular transportation. However, there was no significant difference in the final concentration of intracellular sulfur ions among all groups. This result reinforces our conclusion that the extended lifespan of SUL1Δ is not associated with sulfate transport.

      (4) Testing the RLS of SUL1ΔMSN4Δ double mutants​​

      The replicative lifespan data for the SUL1ΔMSN4Δ double mutant were further analyzed (shown in the following supplementary figure). It was observed that the extension of the SUL1Δ lifespan was not rescued by the knockout of MSN4, supporting the hypothesis that MSN2 may serve as the downstream transcription factor responsible for the increased lifespan of SUL1Δ.

      Author response image 1.

      Replicative life span of MSN4 deletion mutants in WT and SUL1Δ strains.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for authors):

      (1) Inconsistent WT lifespan in Figure 1B

      All measurements of life expectancy were conducted under controlled conditions (30°C, 2% glucose). The revised Figure 1C illustrates that across three independent experiments (n=200 cells), the average lifespan of wild-type (WT) cells was 29.1 generations, which is comparable to the average lifespan of 25.6 generations reported in Figure 1A after data expansion (n=400 cells). This similarity may be attributed to experimental variability arising from multiple trials; however, it does not compromise the validity of our conclusions.

      (2) Sulfate level measurements​​

      Intracellular sulfate levels were measured by quantitatively assessing the sulfate concentrations in wild-type (WT), SUL1Δ, SUL2Δ, and SUL<sup>E427</sup> cells, as detailed in the methods section (Figure 1C). The results indicated that all mutant strains showed a delayed sulfur uptake process, but there was no significant difference in the final concentration of intracellular sulfur ions in all groups.

      (3) RNA-seq for non-lifespan-extending mutants​​

      RNA-seq data for the SUL2Δ and SULE427 mutants can be found in Supplementary Figure 1. These mutants do not exhibit a significant upregulation of stress-response genes, such as HSP12 and TPS1, which reinforces the specificity of the pathways induced by SUL1Δ.

      (4) Improved Msn2/4 imaging​​

      Figure 3C and supplementary Figure 4A present high-resolution confocal images (using a 63× objective lens) of cell nuclei labeled with MSN2-GFP and DAPI. The GFP intensity within the nucleus was normalized against the DAPI signal to account for differences in nuclear size.​​

      ​​Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for authors):

      (1) Nuclear size normalization​​

      The verification data for MSN2 and MSN4 were re-evaluated through DAPI signal normalization. The revised figures are presented in Figure 3C and Supplementary Figure 4A.

      (2) Strain nomenclature​​

      All strain names (e.g., SUL1Δ) were updated to follow SGD guidelines.

      (3) Grammar and formatting​​

      We have carefully revised the text to improve readability. And the manuscript was proofread by a native English speaker. Citations (e.g., "trehalose (Lillie and Pringle, 1980)") and spacing errors were corrected.

      (4) Microscopy resolution​​

      In the revised figures (Figures 3C, 3E, 4B, 4E, Supplementary Figure 3A, 4A, 4C), all fluorescence images are displayed as separate channels (EGFP, DAPI, BF). The scale and arrows have been added to the figure for clarity.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The authors use electrophysiological and behavioral measurements to examine how animals could reliably determine odor intensity/concentration across repeated experiences. Because stimulus repetition leads to short-term adaptation evidenced by reduced overall firing rates in the antennal lobe and firing rates are otherwise concentration-dependent, there could be an ambiguity in sensory coding between reduced concentration or more recent experience. This would have a negative impact on the animal's ability to generate adaptive behavioral responses that depend on odor intensities. The authors conclude that changes in concentration alter the constituent neurons contributing to the neural population response, whereas adaptation maintains the 'activated ensemble' but with scaled firing rates. This provides a neural coding account of the ability to distinguish odor concentrations even after extended experience. Additional analyses attempt to distinguish hypothesized circuit mechanisms for adaptation but are inconclusive. A larger point that runs through the manuscript is that overall spiking activity has an inconsistent relationship with behavior and that the structure of population activity may be the more appropriate feature to consider.

      To my knowledge, the dissociation of effects of odor concentration and adaptation on olfactory system population codes was not previously demonstrated. This is a significant contribution that improves on any simple model based on overall spiking activity. The primary result is most strikingly supported by visualization of a principal components analysis in Figure 4. However, there are some weaknesses in the data and analyses that limit confidence in the overall conclusions.

      We thank the reviewer for evaluating our work and highlighting its strengths and deficiencies. We have revised the manuscript with expanded behavioral datasets and additional analyses that we believe convincingly support our conclusion. 

      (1) Behavioral work interpreted to demonstrate discrimination of different odor concentrations yields inconsistent results. Only two of the four odorants follow the pattern that is emphasized in the text (Figure 1F). Though it's a priori unlikely that animals are incapable of distinguishing odor concentrations at any stage in adaptation, the evidence presented is not sufficient to reach this conclusion.

      We have expanded our dataset and now show that the behavioral response is significantly different for high and low concentration exposures of the same odorant. This was observed for all four odorants in our study (refer to Revised Fig. 1F).

      (2) While conclusions center on concepts related to the combination of activated neurons or the "active ensemble", this specific level of description is not directly demonstrated in any part of the results. We see individual neural responses and dimensional reduction analyses, but we are unable to assess to what extent the activated ensemble is maintained across experience.

      We have done several additional analyses (see provisional response). Notably, we have corroborated our dimensionality reduction and correlation analysis results with a quantitative classification analysis that convincingly demonstrates that odor identity and intensity of the odorant can be decoded from the ensemble neural activity, and this could be achieved in an adaptation-invariant fashion (refer to Revised Supplementary Fig. 4). 

      (3) There is little information about the variance or statistical strength of results described at the population level. While the PCA presents a compelling picture, the central point that concentration changes and adaptation alter population responses across separable dimensions is not demonstrated quantitatively. The correlation analysis that might partially address this question is presented to be visually interpreted with no additional testing.

      We have included a plot that compares the odor-evoked responses across all neurons (mean ± variance) at both intensity levels for each odorant (Revised Supplementary Fig. 5). This plot clearly shows how the ensemble neural activity profile varies with odor intensity and how these response patterns are robustly maintained across trials. 

      (4) Results are often presented separately for each odor stimulus or for separate datasets including two odor stimuli. An effort should be made to characterize patterns of results across all odor stimuli and their statistical reliability. This concern arises throughout all data presentations.

      We had to incorporate a 15-minute window between presentations of odorants to reset adaptation. Due to this, we were unable to extracellularly record from all four odorants at two intensities from a single experiment (~ 3.5 hours of recording for just 2 odorants at two intensities with one odorant at higher intensity repeated at the end; Fig. 2a). Therefore, we recorded two datasets. Each dataset captured the responses of ~80 PNs to two odorants at two intensities, one odorant at the higher concentration repeated at the end of the experiment to show repeatability of changes due to adaptation. 

      (5) The relevance of the inconclusive analysis of inferred adaptation mechanisms in Figure 2d-f and the single experiment including a complex mixture in Figure 7 to the motivating questions for this study are unclear.

      Figure 2d-f has been revised. While we agree that the adaptation mechanisms are not fully clear, there is a trend that the most active PNs are the neurons that change the most across trials. This change and the response in the first trial are negatively correlated, indicating that vesicle depletion could be an important contributor to the observed results. However, neurons that adapt strongly at higher intensities are not the ones that adapt at lower intensities. This complicates the understanding of how neural responses vary with intensities and the adaptation that happens due to repetition. This has been highlighted in the revised manuscript. 

      Regarding Figure 7, we wanted to examine the odor-specificity of the changes that happen due to repeated encounters of an odorant. Specifically, wondered if the neural response reduction and behavioral enhancements were a global, non-specific state change in the olfactory system brought about by the repetition of any odorant, or are the observed neural and behavioral response changes odor-specific.

      (6) Throughout the description of the results, typical standards for statistical reporting (sample size, error bars, etc.) are not followed. This prevents readers from assessing effect sizes and undermines the ability to assign a confidence to any particular conclusion.

      We have revised the manuscript to fix these issues and included sample size and error bars in our plots.  

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors' main goal was to evaluate how both behavioral responses to odor, and their early sensory representations are modified by repeated exposure to odor, asking whether the process of adaptation is equivalent to reducing the concentration of an odor. They open with behavioral experiments that actually establish that repeated odor presentation increases the likelihood of evoking a behavioral response in their experimental subjects - locusts. They then examine neural activity patterns at the second layer of the olfactory circuit. At the population level, repeated odor exposure reduces total spike counts, but at the level of individual cells there seems to be no consistent guiding principle that describes the adaptation-related changes, and therefore no single mechanism could be identified.

      Both population vector analysis and pattern correlation analysis indicate that odor intensity information is preserved through the adaptation process. They make the closely related point that responses to an odor in the adapted state are distinct from responses to lower concentration of the same odor. These analyses are appropriate, but the point could be strengthened by explicitly using some type of classification analysis to quantify the adaptation effects. e.g. a confusion matrix might show if there is a gradual shift in odor representations, or whether there are trials where representations change abruptly.

      Strengths:

      One strength is that the work has both behavioral read-out of odor perception and electrophysiological characterization of the sensory inputs and how both change over repeated stimulus presentations. It is particularly interesting that behavioral responses increase while neuronal responses generally decrease. Although the behavioral effect could occur fully downstream of the sensory responses the authors measure, at least those sensory responses retain the core features needed to drive behavior despite being highly adapted.

      Weaknesses:

      Ultimately no clear conceptual framework arises to understand how PN responses change during adaptation. Neither the mechanism (vesicle depletion versus changes in lateral inhibition) nor even a qualitative description of those changes. Perhaps this is because much of the analysis is focused on the entire population response, while perhaps different mechanisms operate on different cells making it difficult to understand things at the single PN level.

      From the x-axis scale in Fig 2e,f it appeared to me that they do not observe many strong PN responses to these stimuli, everything being < 10 spikes/sec. So perhaps a clearer effect would be observed if they managed to find the stronger responding PNs than captured in this dataset.

      We thank the reviewer for his/her evaluation of our work. Indeed, our work does not clarify the mechanism that underlies the adaptation over trials, and how this mechanism accounts for adaptation that is observed at two different intensities of the same odorant. However, as we highlight in the revised manuscript, there is some evidence for the vesicle depletion hypothesis. For the plots shown in Fig. 2, the firing rates were calculated after averaging across time bins and trials. Hence, the lower firing rates. The peak firing rates of the most active neurons are ~100 Hz. So, we are certain that we are collecting responses from a representative ensemble of neurons in this circuit.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      How does the brain distinguish stimulus intensity reduction from response reductions due to adaptation? Ling et al study whether and how the locust olfactory system encodes stimulus intensity and repetition differently. They show that these stimulus manipulations have distinguishable effects on population dynamics.

      Strengths:

      (1) Provides a potential strategy with which the brain can distinguish intensity decrease from adaptation. -- while both conditions reduce overall spike counts, intensity decrease can also changes which neurons are activated and adaptation only changes the response magnitude without changing the active ensemble.

      (2) By interleaving a non-repeated odor, they show that these changes are odor-specific and not a non-specific effect.

      (3) Describes how proboscis orientation response (POR) changes with stimulus repetition., Unlike the spike counts, POR increases in probability with stimulus. The data portray the variability across subjects in a clear way.

      We thank the reviewer for the summary and for highlighting the strengths of our work.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Behavior

      a. While the "learning curve" of the POR is nicely described, the behavior itself receives very little description. What are the kinematics of the movement, and do these vary with repetition? Is the POR all-or-nothing or does it vary trial to trial?

      The behavioral responses were monitored in unconditioned/untrained locusts. Hence, these are innate responses to the odorants. These innate responses are usually brief and occur after the onset of the stimulus. However, there is variability across locusts and trials (refer Revised Supplementary Fig. 1). When the same odorant is conditioned with food reward, the POR responses become more stereotyped and occur rapidly within a few hundred milliseconds. 

      Author response image 1.

      POR response dynamics in a conditioned locust. The palps were painted in this case (left panel), and the distance between the palps was tracked as a function of time (right panel).

      b. What are the reaction times? This can constrain what time window is relevant in the neural responses. E.g., if the reaction time is 500 ms, then only the first 500 ms of the ensemble response deserves close scrutiny. Later spikes cannot contribute.

      This is an interesting point. We had done this analysis for conditioned POR responses. For innate POR, as we noted earlier, there is variability across locusts. Many responses occur rapidly after odor onset (<1 s), while some responses do occur later during odor presentation and in some cases after odor termination. It is important to note that these dynamical aspects of the POR response, while super interesting, should occur at a much faster time scale compared to the adaptation that we are reporting across trials or repeated encounters of an odorant.

      c. The behavioral methods are lacking some key information. While references are given to previous work, the reader should not be obligated to look at other papers to answer basic questions: how was the response measured? Video tracking? Hand scored?

      We agree and apologize for the oversight. We have revised the methods and added a video to show the POR responses. Videos were hand-scored. 

      d. Can we be sure that this is an odor response? Although airflow out of the olfactometer is ongoing throughout the experiment, opening and closing valves usually creates pressure jumps that are likely to activate mechanosensors in the antennae.

      Interesting. We have added a new Supplementary Fig. 2 that shows that the POR to even presentations of paraffin oil (solvent; control) is negligible.  This should confirm that the POR is a behavioral response to the odorant. 

      Furthermore, all other potential confounds identified by the reviewer are present for every odorant and every concentration presented.  However, the POR varies in an odor-identity and intensity-specific manner. 

      e. What is the baseline rate of PORs in the absence of stimuli?

      Almost zero. 

      f. What can you say about the purpose of the POR? I lack an intuition for why a fly would wiggle the maxillary palps. This is a question that is probably impossible to answer definitively, but even a speculative explanation would help the reader better understand.

      The locusts use these finger-like maxillary palps to grab a grass blade while eating. Hence, we believe that this might be a preparatory response to feeding. We have noted that the PORs are elicited more by food-related odorants. Hence, we think it is a measure of odor appetitiveness. This has been added to the manuscript. 

      (2) Physiology

      a. Does stimulus repetition affect "spontaneous" activity (i.e., firing in the interstimulus interval? To study this question, in Figures 2b and c, it would be valuable to display more of the prestimulus period, and a quantification of the stability or lability of the inter-stimulus activity.

      Done. Yes, the spontaneous activity does appear to change in an odor-specific manner. We have done some detailed analysis of the same in this preprint:

      Ling D, Moss EH, Smith CL, Kroeger R, Reimer J, Raman B, Arenkiel BR. Conserved neural dynamics and computations across species in olfaction. bioRxiv [Preprint]. 2023 Apr 24:2023.04.24.538157. doi: 10.1101/2023.04.24.538157. PMID: 37162844; PMCID: PMC10168254

      b. When does the response change stabilize? While the authors compare repetition 1 to repetition 25, from the rasters it appears that the changes have largely stabilized after the 3rd or 4th repetition. In Figure 5, there is a clear difference between repetition 1-3 or so and the rest. Are successive repetitions more similar than more temporally-separated repetitions (e.g., is rep 13 more similar to 14 than to 17?). I was not able to judge this based on the dendrograms of Figure 5. If the responses do stabilize at it appears, it would be more informative to focus on the dynamics of the first few repetitions.

      The reviewer makes an astute observation. Yes, the changes in firing rates are larger in the first three trials (Fig. 3c). The ensemble activity patterns, though, are relatively stable across all trials as indicated by the PCA plots and classification analysis results.

      Author response image 2.

      Correlation as a function of trial number. All correlations were made with respect to the odor-evoked responses in the last odor trial of hex(H) and bza(H).

      c. How do temporal dynamics change? Locust PNs have richly varied temporal dynamics, but how these may be affected is not clear. The across-population average is poorly suited to capture this feature of the activity. For example, the PNs often have an early transient response, and these appear to be timed differently across the population. These structures will be obscured in a cross population average. Looking at the rasters, it looks like the initial transient changes its timing (e.g., PN40 responses move earlier; PN33 responses move later.). Quantification of latency to first spike after stimulus may make a useful measure of the dynamics.

      As noted earlier, to keep our story simple in this manuscript, we have only focused on the variations across trials (i.e., much slower response dynamics). We did this as we are not recording neural and behavioral responses from the same locust. We plan to do this and directly compare the neural and behavioral dynamics in the same locust.

      d.How legitimate is the link between POR and physiology? While their changes can show a nice correlation, the fact the data were taken from separate animals makes them less compelling than they would be otherwise. How feasible is it to capture POR and physiology in the same prep?

      This would be most helpful, but I suspect may be too technically challenging to be within scope.

      The antennal lobe activity in the input about the volatile chemicals encountered by the locust. The POR is a behavioral output. Hence, we believe that examining the correlation between the olfactory system's input and output is a valid approach. However, we have only compared the mean trends in neural and behavioral datasets, and dynamics on a much slower timescale. We are currently developing the capability to record neural responses in behaving animals. This turned out to be a bit more challenging than we had envisioned. We plan to do fine-grained comparisons of the neural and behavioral dynamics, recommended by this reviewer, in those preparations.

      Further, we will also be able to examine whether the variability in behavioral responses could be predicted from neural activity changes in that prep.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript investigated the mechanism underlying boundary formation necessary for proper separation of vestibular sensory end organs. In both chick and mouse embryos, it was shown that a population of cells abutting the sensory (marked by high Sox2 expression) /nonsensory cell populations (marked by Lmx1a expression) undergo apical expansion, elongation, alignment and basal constriction to separate the lateral crista (LC) from the utricle. Using Lmx1a mouse mutant, organ cultures, pharmacological and viral-mediated Rock inhibition, it was demonstrated that the Lmx1a transcription factor and Rock-mediated actomyosin contractility is required for boundary formation and LC-utricle separation.

      Strengths:

      Overall, the morphometric analyses were done rigorously and revealed novel boundary cell behaviors. The requirement of Lmx1a and Rock activity in boundary formation was convincingly demonstrated.

      Weaknesses:

      However, the precise roles of Lmx1a and Rock in regulating cell behaviors during boundary formation were not clearly fleshed out. For example, phenotypic analysis of Lmx1a was rather cursory; it is unclear how Lmx1a, expressed in half of the boundary domain, control boundary cell behaviors and prevent cell mixing between Lmx1a+ and Lmx1a- compartments? Well-established mechanisms and molecules for boundary formation were not investigated (e.g. differential adhesion via cadherins, cell repulsion via ephrin-Eph signaling). Moreover, within the boundary domain, it is unclear whether apical multicellular rosettes and basal constrictions are drivers of boundary formation, as boundary can still form when these cell behaviors were inhibited. Involvement of other cell behaviors, such as radial cell intercalation and oriented cell division, also warrant consideration. With these lingering questions, the mechanistic advance of the present study is somewhat incremental.

      We have acknowledged the lingering questions this referee points out in our Discussion and agree that the roles of differential cell adhesion and cell intercalation would be worth exploring in further studies. Despite these remaining questions, the conceptual advances are significant, since this study provides the first evidence that a tissue boundary forms in between segregating sensory organs in the inner ear (there are only a handful of embryonic tissues in which a tissue boundary has been found in vertebrates) and highlights the evolutionary conservation of this process. This work also provides a strong descriptive basis for any future study investigating the mechanisms of tissue boundary formation in the mouse and chicken embryonic inner ear. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Chen et al. describe the mechanisms that separate the common pan-sensory progenitor region into individual sensory patches, which presage the formation of the sensory epithelium in each of the inner ear organs. By focusing on the separation of the anterior and then lateral cristae, they find that long supra-cellular cables form at the interface of the pansensory domain and the forming cristae. They find that at these interfaces, the cells have a larger apical surface area, due to basal constriction, and Sox2 is down-regulated. Through analysis of Lmx1 mutants, the authors suggest that while Lmx1 is necessary for the complete segregation of the sensory organs, it is likely not necessary for the initial boundary formation, and the down-regulation of Sox2.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript adds to our knowledge and provides valuable mechanistic insight into sensory organ segregation. Of particular interest are the cell biological mechanisms: The authors show that contractility directed by ROCK is important for the maintenance of the boundary and segregation of sensory organs.

      Weaknesses:

      The manuscript would benefit from a more in-depth look at contractility - the current images of PMLC are not too convincing. Can the authors look at p or ppMLC expression in an apical view? Are they expressed in the boundary along the actin cables? Does Y-27362 inhibit this expression?

      The authors suggest that one role for ROCK is the basal constriction. I was a little confused about basal constriction. Are these the initial steps in the thinning of the intervening nonsensory regions between the sensory organs? What happens to the basally constricted cells as this process continues?

      In our hands, the PMLC immunostaining gave a punctate staining in epithelial cells and was difficult to image and interpret in whole-mount preparations, which did not allow us to investigate its specific association to the actin-cable-like structures. It is a very valuable suggestion to try alternative methods of fixation to improve the quality of the staining and images in future work. 

      The basal constriction of the cells at the border of the sensory organs was not always clearly visible in freshly-fixed samples, and was absent in the majority of short-term organotypic cultures in control medium, which made it impossible to ascertain the role of ROCK in its formation using pharmacological approaches in vitro (see Figure 7 and corresponding Result section).  On the other hand, the overexpression of a dominant-negative form of ROCK (RCII-GFP) in ovo using RCAS revealed a persistence of basal constriction in transfected cells despite a disorganisation of the boundary domain (Figure 8). We conclude from these experiments that ROCK activity is not necessary for the formation and maintenance of the basal constriction. We also remain uncertain about the exact role of this basal constriction. It could be either a cause or consequence of the expansion of the apical surface of cells in the boundary domain, it could contribute to the limitation of cell intermingling and the formation of the actin-cable-like structure at the interface of Lmx1a-expressing and non-expressing cells, and may indeed prefigure some of the further changes in cell morphology occurring in non-sensory domains separating the sensory organs (cell flattening and constrictions of the epithelial walls in between sensory organs). 

      The steps the authors explore happen after boundaries are established. This correlates with a down-regulation of Sox2, and the formation of a boundary. What is known about the expression of molecules that may underlie the apparent interfacial tension at the boundaries? Is there any evidence for differential adhesion or for Eph-Ephrin signalling? Is there a role for Notch signalling or a role for Jag1 as detailed in the group's 2017 paper?

      Great questions. It is indeed likely that some form of differential cell tension and/or adhesion participates to the formation and maintenance of this boundary, and we have mentioned in the discussion some of the usual suspects (cadherins, eph/ephrin signalling,…) although it is beyond the scope of this paper to determine their roles in this context. 

      As we have discussed in this paper and in our 2017 study (see also Ma and Zhang, Development,  2015 Feb 15;142(4):763-73. doi: 10.1242/dev.113662) we believe that Notch signalling is maintaining prosensory character, and its down-regulation by Lmx1a/b expression is required for the specification of the non-sensory domains in between segregating sensory organs. Although we have not tested this directly in this study, any disruption in Notch signalling would be expected to affect indirectly the formation or maintenance of the boundary domain. 

      A comment on whether cellular intercalation/rearrangements may underlie some of the observed tissue changes.

      We have not addressed this topic directly in the present study but we have included a brief comment on the potential implication of cellular intercalation and rearrangements in the discussion: “It is also possible that the repositioning of cells through medial intercalation could contribute to the straightening of the boundary as well as the widening of the nonsensory territories in between sensory patches.”

      The change in the long axis appears to correlate with the expression of Lmx1a (Fig 5d). The authors could discuss this more. Are these changes associated with altered PCP/Vangl2 expression?

      We are not sure about the first point raised by the referee. We have quantified cell elongation and orientation in Lmx1a-GFP heterozygous and homozygous (null) mice, and our results suggest that the elongation of the cells occurs throughout the boundary domain, and is probably not dependent on Lmx1a expression (boundary cells are in fact more elongated in the Lmx1a mutant).  We have not investigated the expression of components of the planar cell polarity pathway. This is a very interesting suggestion, worth exploring in further studies.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Lmx1a is an orthologue of apterous in flies, which is important for dorsal-ventral border formation in the wing disc. Previously, this research group has described the importance of the chicken Lmx1b in establishing the boundary between sensory and non-sensory domains in the chicken inner ear. Here, the authors described a series of cellular changes during border formation in the chicken inner ear, including alignment of cells at the apical border and concomitant constriction basally. The authors extended these observations to the mouse inner ear and showed that these morphological changes occurred at the border of Lmx1a positive and negative regions, and these changes failed to develop in Lmx1a mutants. Furthermore, the authors demonstrated that the ROCK-dependent actomyosin contractility is important for this border formation and blocking ROCK function affected epithelial basal constriction and border formation in both in vitro and in vivo systems.

      Strengths:

      The morphological changes described during border formation in the developing inner ear are interesting. Linking these changes to the function of Lmx1a and ROCK dependent actomyosin contractile function are provocative.

      Weaknesses:

      There are several outstanding issues that need to be clarified before one could pin the morphological changes observed being causal to border formation and that Lmx1a and ROCK are involved.

      We have addressed the specific comments and suggestions of the reviewer below. We wish however to point out that we do not think that ROCK activity is required for the formation or maintenance of the basal constriction at the interface of Lmx1a-expressing and nonexpressing cells (see previous answer to referee #2)

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Specific comments:

      (1) Figures 1 and 2, and related text. Based on the whole-mount images shown, the anterior otocyst appeared to be a stratified epithelium with multiple cell layers. If so, it should be clarified whether the x-y view of in the "apical" and "basal" plane are from cells residing in the apical and basal layers, respectively. Moreover, it would be helpful to include a "stage 4", a later stage to show if and when basal constrictions resolve.

      In fact, at these early stages of development, the otic epithelium is “pseudostratified”: it is formed by a single layer of irregularly shaped cells, each extending from the base to the apical aspect of the epithelium, but with their nuclei residing at distinct positions along this basal-apical axis as mitotic cells progress through the cell cycle.  The nuclei divide at the surface of the epithelium, then move back to the most basal planes within daughter cells during interphase. This process, known as interkinetic nuclear migration, has been well described in the embryonic neural tube and occurs throughout the developing otic epithelium (e.g. Orr, Dev Biol. 1975, 47,325-340, Ohta et al., Dev Biol. 2010 Sep 15;347(2):369–381. doi: 10.1016/j.ydbio.2010.09.002; ). Consequently, the nuclei visible in apical or basal planes in x-y views belong to cells extending from the base to the apex of the epithelium, but which are at different stages of the cell cycle. 

      We have not included a late stage of sensory organ segregation in this study (apart from a P0 stage in the mouse inner ear, see Figure 4) since data about later stages of sensory organ morphogenesis are available in other studies, including our Mann et al. eLife 2017 paper describing Lmx1a-GFP expression in the embryonic mouse inner ear.

      (2) Related to above, the observed changes in cell organization raised the possibility that the apical multicellular rosettes and basal constrictions observed in Stage 3 (and 2) could be intermediates of radial cell intercalations, which would lead to expansion of the space between sensory organs and thinning of the boundary domains. To see if it might be happening, it would be helpful to include DAPI staining to show the overall tissue architecture at different stages and use optical reconstruction to assess the thickness of the epithelium in the presumptive boundary domain over time.

      We agree with this referee. Besides cell addition by proliferation and/or changes in cell morphology, radial cell intercalations could indeed contribute to the spatial segregation of inner ear sensory organs (a brief statement on this possibility was added to the Discussion). It is clear from images shown in Figure 4 (and from other studies) that the non-sensory domain separating the cristae from the utricle gets flatter and its cells also enlarge as development proceeds. We do not think that DAPI staining is required to demonstrate this. Perhaps the best way to show that radial cell intercalations occur would be to perform liveimaging of the otic epithelium, but this is technically challenging in the mouse or chicken inner ear. An alternative model system might be the zebrafish inner ear, in which some liveimaging data have shown a progressive down-regulation of Jag1 expression during sensory organ segregation (and a flattening of “boundary domains”), suggesting a conservation of the basic mechanisms at play (Ma and Zhang, Development,  2015 Feb 15;142(4):763-73. doi: 10.1242/dev.113662).

      (3) Similarly, it would be helpful to include the DAPI counterstain in Figures 4, 7, and 8 to show the overall tissue architecture.

      We do not have DAPI staining for these particular images but in most cases, Sox2 immunostaining gives a decent indication of tissue morphology. 

      (4) Figure 2(z) and Figure 4d. The arrows pointing at the basal constrictions are obstructing the view of the basement membrane area, making it difficult to appreciate the morphological changes. They should be moved to the side. Can the authors comment whether they saw evidence for radial intercalations (e.g. thinning of the boundary domain) or partial unzippering of adjoining compartments along the basal constrictions?

      The arrows in Figure 2(z) and Figure 4d have been moved to the side of the panels. 

      See previous comment. Besides the presence of multicellular rosettes, we have not seen direct evidence of radial cell intercalation – this would be best investigated using liveimaging. As development proceeds, the epithelial domain separating adjoining sensory organs becomes wider. The cells that compose it gradually enlarge and flatten, as can be seen for example at P0 in the mouse inner ear (Figure 4g). 

      (5) Figures 3 and 5, and related text. It should be clarified whether the measurements were all taken from the surface cells. For Fig. 3e and 5d, the mean alignment angles of the cell long axis in the boundary regions should be provided in the text.

      The sensory epithelium in the otocyst is pseudostratified, hence, the measurement was taken from the surface of all epithelial cells labelled with F-actin. 

      We have added histograms representing the angular distribution of the cell long axis orientations in the boundary region to Figure 3 and Figure 5 Supplementary 1. We believe that this type of representation is more informative than the numerical value of the mean alignment angles of the cell long axis for defined sub-domains. 

      (6) It would be helpful to also quantify basal constrictions using the cell skeleton analysis. In addition, it would be helpful to show x-y views of cell morphology at the level of basal constrictions in the mouse tissue, similar to the chick otocyst shown in Figure 2.

      The data that we have collected do not allow a precise quantification of basal constrictions with cell skeleton analysis, due to the generally fuzzy nature of F-actin staining in the basal planes of the epithelium. However, we have followed the referee’s advice and analysed Factin staining in x-y views in the Lmx1a-GFP knock-in (heterozygous) mice. We found that the first signs of basal F-actin enrichment and multicellular actin-cable like structures at the interface of Lmx1a-positive and negative cells are visible at E11.5, and F-actin staining in the basal planes increases in intensity and extent at E13.5. (shown in new Figure 4 – Supplementary Figure 1).

      (7) Figure 5 and related text. It would be informative to analyze Lmx1a mutants at early stages (E11-E13) to pinpoint cell behavior defects during boundary formation.

      We chose the E15 stage because it is one at which we can unequivocally recognize and easily image and analyse the boundary domain from a cytoarchitectural point of view. We recognize that it would have been worth including earlier stages in this analysis but have not been able to perform these additional studies due to time constraints and unavailability of biological material. 

      (8) Figure 5-Figure S1, the quantifications suggest that Lmx1a loss had both cellautonomous and non-autonomous effects on boundary cell behaviors. This is an interesting finding, and its implication should be discussed.

      It is well-known that the absence of Lmx1a function induces a very complex (and variable) phenotype in terms of inner ear morphology and patterning defects. It is also clear from this study that the absence of Lmx1 causes non-cell autonomous defects in the boundary domain and we have already mentioned this in the discussion: “Finally, the patterning abnormalities in Lmx1a<sup>GFP/GFP</sup> samples occurred in both GFP-positive and negative territories, which points at some type of interaction between Lmx1a-expressing and nonexpressing cells, and the possibility that the boundary domain is also a signalling centre influencing the differentiation of adjacent territories.”

      (9) Figure 6 and related text. To correlate myosin II activity with boundary cell behaviors, it would be important to immunolocalize pMLC in the boundary domain in whole-mount otocyst preparations from stage 1 to stage 3.

      We tried to perform the suggested immunostaining experiments, but in our hands at least, the antibody used did not produce good quality staining in whole-mount preparations. We have therefore included images of sectioned otic tissue, which show some enrichment in pMLC immunostaining at the interface of segregating organs (Figure 6).

      (10) Figures 7 and 8. A caveat of long-term Rock inhibition is that it can affect cell proliferation and differentiation of both sensory and non-sensory cells, which would cause secondary effects on boundary formation. This caveat was not adequately addressed. For example, does Rock signaling control either the rate or the orientation of cell division to promote boundary formation? Together with the mild effect of acute Rock inhibition, the precise role of Rock signaling in boundary formation remains unclear.

      We absolutely agree that the exact function of ROCK could not be ascertained in the in vitro experiments, for the reasons we have highlighted in the manuscript (no clear effect in short term treatments, great level of tissue disorganisation in long-term treatments). This prompted us to turn to an in ovo approach. The picture remains uncertain in relation to the role of ROCK in regulating cell division/intercalation but we have been at least able to show a requirement for the maintenance of an organized and regular boundary. 

      (11) Figure 8. RCII-GFP likely also have non-autonomous effects on cell apical surface area. In 8d, it would be informative to include cell area quantifications of the GFP control for comparison.

      It is possible that some non-autonomous effects are produced by RCII-GFP expression, but these were not the focus of the present study and are not particularly relevant in the context of large patches of overexpression, as obtained with RCAS vectors. 

      We have added cell surface area quantifications of the control RCAS-GFP construct for comparison (Figure 8e).

      (12) The significance of the presence of cell divisions shown in Figure 9 is unclear. It would be informative to include some additional analysis, such as a) quantify orientation of cell divisions in and around the boundary domain and b) determine whether patterns of cell division in the sensory and nonsensory regions are disrupted in Lmx1a mutants.

      These are indeed fascinating questions, but which would require considerable work to answer and are beyond the scope of this paper. 

      Minor comments:

      (1) Figure 1. It should be clarified whether e', h' and k' are showing cortical F-actin of surface cells. Do the arrowheads in i' and l' correspond to the position of either of the arrowheads in h' and k', respectively?

      The epithelium in the otocyst is pseudostratified. Therefore, images e’, h’, k’ display F-actin labelling on the surface of tissue composed of a single cell layer. We have added arrows to images e”, h”, and k” to indicate the corresponding position of z-projections and included appropriate explanation in the legend of Figure 1: “Black arrows on the side of images e”, h”, and k” indicate the corresponding position of z-projections.”

      (2) Figure 3-Figure S1. Please mark the orientation of the images shown.

      We labelled the sensory organs in the figure to allow for recognizing the orientation. 

      (3) Figure 4. Orthogonal reconstructions should be labeled (z) to be consistent with other figures.

      We have corrected the labelling in the orthogonal reconstruction to (z). 

      (4) Figure 4g. It is not clear what is in the dark area between the two bands of Lmx1a+ cells next to the utricle and the LC. Are those cells Lmx1a negative? It is unclear whether a second boundary domain formed or the original boundary domain split into two between E15 and P0? Showing the E15 control tissue from Figure 5 would be more informative than P0.

      In this particular sample there seems to be a folding of the tissue (visible in z-reconstructions) that could affect the appearance of the projection shown in 4g. We believe the P0 is a valuable addition to the E15 data, showing a slightly later stage in the development of the vestibular organs.

      (5) Figure 5a, e. Magnified regions shown in b and f should be boxed correspondingly.

      This figure has been revised. We realized that the previous low-magnification shown in (e) (now h) was from a different sample than the one shown in the high-magnification view. The new figure now includes the right low-magnification sample (in h) and the regions shown in the high-magnification views have been boxed.

      (6) Figure 8f, h, j. Magnified regions shown in g, i and k should be boxed correspondingly.

      The magnified regions were boxed in Figure 8 f, h, and j. Additionally, black arrows have been placed next to images 8g", 8i", and 8k" to highlight the positions of the z-projections. An appropriate explanation has also been added to the figure legend.

      (9) Figure 8. It would be helpful to show merged images of GFP and F-actin, to better appreciate cell morphology of GFP+ and GFP- cells.

      As requested, we have added images showing overlap of GFP and F-actin channels in Figure 8.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The PMLC staining could be improved. Two decent antibodies are the p-MLC and pp-MLC antibodies from CST. pp-MLC works very well after TCA fixation as detailed in https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-2508957/latest . As phalloidin does not work well after TCA fixation, affadin works very well for segmenting cells.

      If the authors do not wish to repeat the pMLC staining, the details of the antibody used should be mentioned.

      We used mouse IgG1 Phospho-Myosin Light Chain 2 (Ser19) from Cell Signaling Technology (catalogue number #3675) in our immunohistochemistry for PMLC. This is one of the two antibodies recommended by the reviewer #2. Information about this antibody has now been included in material and methods. This antibody has been referenced by many manuscripts, but unfortunately, in our hands at least, it did not perform well in whole-mount preparations.

      A statement on the availability of the data should be included.

      We have included a statement on the data availability: “All data generated or analysed during this study is available upon request.”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Outstanding issues:

      (1) Morphological description: The apical alignment of epithelial cells at the border is clear but not the upward pull of the basal lamina. Very often, it seems to be the Sox2 staining that shows the upward pull better than the F-actin staining. Perhaps, adding an anti-laminin staining to indicate the basement membrane may help.

      Indeed, the upward pull of the basement membrane is not always very clear. We performed some anti-laminin immunostaining on mouse cryosections and provide below (Figure 1) an example of such experiment. The results appear to confirm an upward displacement of the basement membrane in the region separating the lateral crista from the utricle in the E13 mouse inner ear, but given the preliminary nature of these experiments, we believe that these results do not warrant inclusion in the manuscript. The term “pull” is somehow implying that the epithelial cells are responsible for the upward movement of the basement membrane, but since we do not have direct evidence that this is the case, we have replaced “pull” by “displacement” throughout the text. 

      (2) It is not clear how well the cellular changes are correlated with the timing of border formation as some of the ages shown in the study seem to be well after the sensory patches were separated and the border was established.

      For some experiments (for example E15 in the comparison of mouse Lmx1a-GFP heterozygous and homozygous inner ear tissue; E6 for the RCAS experiments), the early stages of boundary formation are not covered because we decided to focus our analysis on the late consequences of manipulating Lmx1a/ROCK activity in terms of sensory organ segregation. The dataset is more comprehensive for the control developmental series in the chicken and mouse inner ear. 

      (3) The Lmx1a data, as they currently stand could be explained by Lmx1a being required for non-sensory development and not necessarily border formation. Additionally, the relationship between ROCK and Lmx1a was not investigated. Since the investigators have established the molecular mechanisms of Lmx1 function using the chicken system previously, the authors could try to correlate the morphological events described here with the molecular evidence for Lmx1 functioning during border formation in the same chicken system. Right now, only the expression of Sox2 is used to correlate with the cellular events, and not Lmx1, Jag1 or notch.

      These are valid points. Exploring in detail the epistatic relationships between Notch signalling/Lmx1a/ROCK/boundary formation in the chicken model would be indeed very interesting but would require extensive work using both gain and loss-of-function approaches, combined with the analysis of multiple markers (Jag1/Sox2/Lmx1b/PMLC/Factin..). At this point, and in agreement with the referee’s comment, we believe that Lmx1a is above all required for the adoption of the non-sensory fate. The loss of Lmx1a function in the mouse inner ear produce defects in the patterning and cellular features of the boundary domain, but these may be late consequences of the abnormal differentiation of the nonsensory domains that separate sensory organs. Furthermore, ROCK activity does not appear to be required for Sox2 expression (i.e. adoption or maintenance of the sensory fate) since the overexpression of RCII-GFP does not prevent Sox2 expression in the chicken inner ear. This fits with a model in which Notch/Lmx1a regulate cell differentiation whilst ROCK acts independently or downstream of these factors during boundary formation. 

      Specific comments:

      (1) Figure 1. The downregulation of Sox2 is consistent between panels h and k, but not between panels e and h. The orthogonal sections showing basal constriction in h' and k' are not clear.

      The downregulation is noticeable along the lower edge of the crista shown in h; the region selected for the high-magnification view sits at an intermediate level of segregation (and Sox2 downregulation). 

      The basal constriction is not very clear in h, but becomes easier to visualize in k. We have displaced the arrow pointing at the constriction, which hopefully helps. 

      (2) Figure 2. Where was the Z axis taken from? One seems to be able to imagine the basal constriction better in the anti-Sox2 panel than the F-actin panel. A stain outlining the basement membrane better could help.

      Arrows have been added on the side of the horizontal views to mark the location of the zreconstruction. See our previous replies to comments addressing the upward displacement of the basement membrane.

      (3) Figure 4

      I question the ROI being chosen in this figure, which seems to be in the middle of a triad between LC, prosensory/utricle and the AC, rather than between AC and LC. If so, please revise the title of the figure. This could also account for the better evidence of the apical alignment in the upper part of the f panel.

      We have corrected the text. 

      In this figure, the basal constriction is a little clearer in the orthogonal cuts, but it is not clear where these sections were taken from.

      We have added black arrows next to images 4c’, 4f’, and 4i’ to indicate the positions of the zprojections.  

      By E13.5, the LC is a separate entity from the utricle, it makes one wonder how well the basal constriction is correlated with border formation. The apical alignment is also present by P0, which raises the question that the apical alignment and basal restriction may be more correlated with differentiation of non-sensory tissue rather than associated with border formation.

      We agree E13.5 is a relatively late stage, and the basal constriction was not always very pronounced. The new data included in the revised version include images of basal planes of the boundary domain at E11.5, which reveal F-actin enrichment and the formation of an actin-cable-like structure (Figure 4 suppl. Fig1). Furthermore, the chicken dataset shows that the changes in cell size, alignment, and the formation of actin-cable-like structure precede sensory patch segregation and are visible when Sox2 expression starts to be downregulated in prospective non-sensory tissue (Figure 1, Figure 2). Considering the results from both species, we conclude that these localised cellular changes occur relatively early in the sequence of events leading to sensory patch segregation, as opposed to being a late consequence of the differentiation of the non-sensory territories.  

      I don't follow the (x) cuts for panels h and I, as to where they were taken from and why there seems to be an epithelial curvature and what it was supposed to represent.

      We have added black arrows next to the panels 4c’, 4f’, and 4i’ to indicate the positions of the z-projections and modified the legend accordingly. The epithelial curvature is probably due to the folding of the tissue bordering the sensory organs during the manipulation/mounting of the tissue for imaging.

      (4) Figure 5 The control images do not show the apical alignment and the basal constriction well. This could be because of the age of choice, E15, was a little late. Unfortunately, the unclarity of the control results makes it difficult for illustrating the lack of cellular changes in the mutant. The only take-home message that one could extract from this figure is a mild mixing of Sox2 and Lmx1a-Gfp cells in the mutant and not much else. Also, please indicate the level where (x) was taken from.

      Black arrows have been placed next to images 5e and 5l to highlight the positions of the zprojections. The stage E15 chosen for analysis was appropriate to compare the boundary domains once segregation is normally completed. We believe the results show some differences in the cellular features of the boundary domain in the Lmx1a-null mouse, and we have in fact quantified this using Epitool in Figure 5 – Suppl. Fig 1. Cells are more elongated and better aligned in the Lmx1a-null than in the heterozygous samples.  

      (5) Figure 7. I think the cellular disruption caused by the ROCK inhibitor, shown in q', is too severe to be able to pin to a specific effect of ROCK on border formation. In that regard, the ectopic expression of the dominant negative form of ROCK using RCAS approach is better, even though because it is a replication competent form of RCAS, it is still difficult to correlate infected cells to functional disruption.

      We used a replication-competent construct to induce a large patch of infection, increasing our chances of observing a defect in sensory organ segregation and boundary formation. We agree that this approach does not allow us to control the timing of overexpression, but the mosaicism in gene expression, allowing us to compare in the same tissue large regions with/without perturbed ROCK activity, proved more informative than the pharmacological/in vitro experiments.

      (6) Figure 8. Outline the ROI of i in h, and k in j. Outline in k the comparable region in k'. In k", F-actin staining is not uniform. Indicate where (x) was taken from in K.

      The magnified regions were boxed in Figure 8 f, h, and j. Region outlined in figures k’-k” has also been outlined in corresponding region in figure k. Additionally, black arrows have been placed next to images 8g", 8i", and 8k" to highlight the positions of the z-projections. An appropriate explanation has also been added to the figure legend.

      Minor comments:

      (1) P.18, 1st paragraph, extra bracket at the end of the paragraph.

      Bracket removed

      (2) P.22, line 11, in ovo may be better than in vivo in this case.

      We agree, this has been corrected. 

      (3) P.25, be consistent whether it is GFP or EGFP.

      Corrected to GFP.

      (4) P.26, line 5. Typo on "an"

      Corrected to “and”

      Author response image 1.

      Expression of Laminin and Sox2 in the E13 mouse inner ear. a-a’’’) Low magnification view of the utricle, the lateral crista, and the non-sensory (Sox2-negative) domain separating these. Laminin staining is detected at relatively high levels in the basement membrane underneath the sensory patches. At higher magnification (b-b’’’), an upward displacement of the basement membrane (arrow) is visible in the region of reduced Sox2 expression, corresponding to the “boundary domain” (bracket). 

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Weaknesses:

      (1). Analysis of transcript expression is limited to the CT-peptide encoding gene, while no gene expression analysis was attempted for the three identified receptors. Differences in the activation of downstream signaling pathways between the three receptors are also questionable due to unclarities in the statistical analysis and variation in the control and experimental data in heterologous assays. Together, this makes it difficult to propose a mechanism underlying differences in the functions of the two CT-like peptides in muscle control and growth regulation.

      We appreciate the reviewer's rigorous critique. The manuscript has been comprehensively revised as follows:

      (1) For the expression analysis of the three identified receptors, the updated results are presented in Figure 5, with the detailed descriptions in Results section 2.4 (line 287-290) and Materials and Methods section 4.5 (line 767).

      (2) For the statistical tests and methodological clarity, statistical tests were indeed performed for all experiments. However, we acknowledge that the original labeling methods required enhanced methodological clarity, and we apologize for any confusion caused. All figures have been revised to improve the visibility of differences, and statistical test information has been added to both the figure legends and the Materials and methods section “4.10 Statistical Analysis” (line 900-910).

      (3) For the variation in the control and experimental data, the minor observed variations in control conditions across experiments primarily arise from two methodological factors: 1) Each experimental set used cells transfected with distinct receptor subtypes (e.g., AjPDFR1 vs. AjPDFR2), inherently introducing baseline variability due to differential receptor expression profiles. 2) Independent cell culture batches were employed for replicate experiments to ensure biological reproducibility.  Importantly, these minor variations ‌did not compromise‌ the statistical significance of downstream signaling differences (p < 0.01 for all comparative analyses). Therefore, differences in the activation of downstream signaling pathways between the three receptors are reliable.

      (2) The authors also suggest a putative orexigenic role for the CT-like peptidergic system in feeding behavior. This effect is not well supported by the experimental data provided, as no detailed analysis of feeding behavior was carried out (only indirect measurements were performed that could be influenced by other peptidergic effects, such as on muscle relaxation) and no statistically significant differences were reported in these assays.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s valuable comments. Our revised manuscript now includes the following multidimensional analyses to strengthen evidence of the orexigenic role of AjCT2: Firstly, in sea cucumbers, the mass of remaining bait is a common indicator of feeding condition. After long-term AjCT2 injection, this value was significantly decreased in comparison with control group during phase V (Figure 8A-figure supplement 1), which indicates that AjCT2 promotes feeding in A. japonicus. Correspondingly, in long-term loss-of-function experiments (newly added in the revised manuscript), the remaining bait in the siAjCTP1/2-1 group was significantly increased in comparison with siNC group form phase II to IV (Figure 10B). The detailed descriptions of these supplementary experiments have been added to‌ Results Section 2.6 (lines 390-396) and Materials and Methods Section 4.9 (line 879-888).

      Secondly, after 24 days of continuous injections of siAjCTP1/2-1, we monitored the feeding behavior of these sea cucumbers over three consecutive days. Each day, we removed residual bait and feces, then repositioned fresh food at the tank center.‌ We calculated the aggregation percentage (AP) of sea cucumbers around the food during the feeding peak (2:00-4:00) each day, which is the most reliable indicator of feeding behavior in this species‌. The results showed that the AP in siAjCTP1/2-1 group was significantly lower than that in control group. Post-dissection observations revealed reduced intestinal food content and significant intestinal degeneration in the siAjCTP1/2-1 group (The figure has been added below). These results indicate that long-term functional loss of AjCT2 reduces food intake and influences the feeding behavior of A. japonicus.

      In response to the comment regarding “No statistically significant differences were reported in these assays”, we have modified the figures to clearly visualize the differences and added statistical test details in both the figure legends and the Materials and methodssection “4.10 Statistical analysis” (lines 900–910).

      Author response image 1.

      The feeding behavior of A. japonicus after long-term loss-of-function of AjCT2. (A) A record of feeding behavior. The red arrow refers to the food and the red box represents the feeding area. The numbers in the figure represent individuals entering into the feeding area. (B) The aggregation percentage (AP) of sea cucumbers around the food during the feeding peak (2:00-4:00) (n=3 days). (C) The degenerated intestine of sea cucumber after 24 days of siAjCTP1/2-1 injection. Data in the graph represent the mean ± standard deviation. *Significant differences between groups (p < 0.05). Control: siNC injection group; CT-SiRNA: siAjCTP1/2 injection group.<br />

      (3) Overall, details regarding statistical analyses are not (clearly) specified in the manuscript, and there are several instances where statements are not supported by literature evidence.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comments. Again, we sincerely apologize for the confusion caused. To clarify, statistical tests were performed for all experiments. However, the original labeling may have been somewhat messy. We have revised all figures to enhance the visibility of differences and provided detailed statistical test information in both the figure legends and the Materials and Methods section titled “4.10 Statistical Analysis” (lines 900–910). Additionally, we have supplemented the revised manuscript with further literature evidence to support our statements: (1) citation to Furuya et al. (2000), Johnson et al. (2005), Jékely (2013) and Mirabeau et al. (2013) have been added to clarify the foundation studies on DH31 and DH31 receptors in invertebrates (line 73-74); (2) Conzelmann et al. (2013) and Furuya et al. (2000) were cited to validate the present of two different types of CT-related peptides in protostomes: CT-type peptides (with an N-terminal disulphide bridge) and DH31-type peptides (lacking this feature) (line 78-79); (3) Johnson et al. (2005) was referenced to support the dual ligand-receptor interactions of DH31 in Drosophila, specifically its binding to both CG17415 (a CTR/CLR-related protein) and CG13758 (the PDF receptor)  (line 94); (4) Johnson et al. (2005) and Goda et al. (2019) were cited to reinforce the functional significance of dual DH31 receptor pathways in Drosophila, as extensively studied in prior research (line 95-97).

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors claim that A. japonicus CTs activate "PDF" receptors and suggest that this cross-talk is evolutionarily ancient since a similar phenomenon also exists in the fly Drosophila melanogaster. These conclusions are not fully supported for several reasons. The authors perform phylogenetic analysis to show that the two "PDF" receptors form an independent clade. This clade is sister to the clade comprising CT receptors. This phylogenetic analysis suffers from several issues. Firstly, the phylogenies lack bootstrap support. Secondly, the resolution of the phylogeny is poor because representative members from diverse phyla have not been included. For instance, insect or other protostomian PDF receptors have not been included so how can the authors distinguish between "PDF" receptors or another group of CT receptors? Thirdly, no in vivo evidence has been presented to support that CT can activate "PDF" receptors in vivo.

      We thank the reviewers for their constructive comments. As suggested, ‌we expanded our taxon sampling to include more representative members across diverse phyla‌ and reanalyzed the phylogenetic relationships (including bootstrap tests) in Figure 1C. The revised analysis revealed two distinct clades‌: one containing CTR/CLR-type receptors and the other PDF-type receptors. Specifically, AjCTR clustered within the CTR/CLR-type receptor group, while AjPDFR1 and AjPDFR2 were placed in the PDF-type receptor clade. The full species names for all taxa were provided in the Supplementary Table 2.

      To provide in vivo evidence supporting CT-mediated activation of "PDF" receptors‌, we conducted the following experiments: Firstly, we confirmed that AjPDFR1 and AjPDFR2 were the functional receptors of AjCT1 and AjCT2 (Figure 2, 3 and 4). Secondly, injection of AjCT2 and siAjCTP1/2-1 in vivo induced corresponding changes in AjPDFR1 and AjPDFR2 expression levels in the intestine (Figure 8C, 9A, 9B and 9C).

      (2) The source of CT which mediates the effects on longitudinal muscles and intestine is unclear. Is it autocrine or paracrine signaling by CT from the same tissue or is it long-range hormonal signaling?

      Thank you for this feedback. We have now analysed CT-type neuropeptide expression in A. japonicus using immunohistochemistry with the antiserum to the A. rubens CT-type peptde ArCT, which has previously been shown to cross-react with CT-type neuropeptides in other echinoderms (Aleotti et al., 2022). We have added related descriptions in the following sections: Results (section 2.4, line 299-336), Discussion (section 3.3, line 545-554) and Materials and methods (section 4.6, line 785-817). Consistent with this previous finding, the ArCT antiserum labelled neuronal cells and fibers in the central and peripheral nervous system and in the digestive system of A. japonicus (Figure 6). The specificity of immunostaining was confirmed by performing pre-absorption tests with the ArCT antigen peptide (Figure 6-figure supplement 1). The detection of immunostaining in the innervation of the intestine is consistent with PCR results and the relaxing effect of AjCT2 on intestine preparations. Interestingly, no immunostaining was observed in longitudinal muscle, which is inconsistent with the detection of AjCT1/2 transcripts in this tissue. This may reflect differences in the sensitivity of the methods employed to detect transcripts (PCR) and mature peptide (immunohistochemistry). The absence of ArCT-like immunoreactivity in the longitudinal muscles suggests that AjCT1 and AjCT2 may exert relaxing effects on this tissue in vivo via hormonal signaling mechanisms. However, because AjCT1/2 expression in the longitudinal muscles may be below the detection threshold of the ArCT antibodies, we can’t rule out the possibility that AjCT1/2 are released within the longitudinal muscles physiologically.   

      (3) Pharmacology experiments showing the effects of CT1 and CT2 on ACh-induced contractions were performed. Sample traces have been provided but no traces with ACh alone have been included. How long do ACh-induced contractions persist? These controls are necessary to differentiate between the eventual decay of ACh effects and relaxation induced by CT1 and CT2. The traces also do not reflect the results portrayed in dose-response curves. For instance, in Figure 6B, maximum relaxation is reported for 10-6M. Yet, the trace hardly shows any difference before and after the addition of 10-6M peptide. The maximum effect in the trace appears to be after the addition of 10-8M peptide.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comments. ‌As requested, we have included representative traces of ACh-induced contraction of longitudinal muscle and intestinal preparations (Figure 7—figure supplement 1B and 1C). Notably, the positive control (ACh) maintained contraction effects for at least 15 minutes‌, consistent with its known pharmacological properties. Regarding Figure 7B (previous Figure 6B), ‌the trace illustrates the cumulative effects of successive neuropeptide treatments at increasing concentrations‌. A gradual reduction in response amplitude was observed at the highest peptide concentration, ‌likely reflecting receptor desensitization‌, a phenomenon previously reported for neuropeptide Y and oxytocin (Tsurumaki et al., 2003; Arrowsmith and Wray, 2014). These results are now explicitly described in the Results Section 2.5 (lines 340-345 and 348-352) and discussed in Section 3.3 (lines 569-574). In response to the reviewer’s suggestion‌, we further tested the pharmacological effects of AjCT2 at 10⁻⁶ M. ‌As shown in Figure 7—figure supplement 1A, this concentration induced maximal relaxation‌, confirming its dose-dependent efficacy.

      (4) I am unsure how differences in wet mass indicate feeding and growth differences since no justification has been provided. Couldn't wet mass also be influenced by differences in osmotic balance, a key function of calcitonin-like peptides in protostomian invertebrates? The statistical comparisons have not been included in Figure 7B.

      We appreciate the reviewer's insightful comments. We fully concur that wet mass constitutes an inadequate indicator for evaluating feeding and growth variations. Consequently, we reassessed A. japonicus growth parameters using two established metrics: weight gain rate (WGR) and specific growth rate (SGR), to delineate differences between experimental and control groups. Notably, the high-concentration AjCT2 injection group exhibited statistically significant increases in both WGR and SGR relative to controls (Figure 8A). This demonstrates a putative physiological role of AjCT2 signaling in enhancing feeding efficiency and growth performance in A. japonicus. Detailed methodologies are provided in the Materials and methods Section 4.8 (lines 847-851), with corresponding results presented in the Results Section 2.6 (lines 370-375). Besides, Cong et al., (2024) reported holotocin-induced osmoregulatory function in A. japonicus, manifested by significant wet weight elevation and body bloating. However, our AjCT2 intervention showed no such phenotypic alterations, suggesting that AjCT2 likely does not participate in osmotic balance regulation, at least under these experimental conditions. Crucially, the observed WGR and SGR enhancements following AjCT2 administration was not caused by osmoregulatory effects.

      (5) While the authors succeeded in knocking down CT, the physiological effects of reduced CT signaling were not examined.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We have supplemented the experiments to investigate the physiological effects of long-term reduced CT signaling following the reviewer’s suggestions, including measuring the dry weight of remaining bait and excrement, calculating the weight gain rate and specific growth rate, and testing the expression levels of three growth factors (AjMegf6, AjGDF-8 and AjIgf) to further assess AjCT2’s role in feeding and growth. The results demonstrated that weight gain rate and specific growth rate in the siAjCTP1/2-1 group were significantly decreased (As shown in Figure 10A). Correspondingly, except in phase I, the siAjCTP1/2-1 group exhibited a significant increase in remaining bait and a decrease in excrement during phases II-VI (Figure 10B). Furthermore, the growth inhibitory factor AjGDF-8 was significantly up-regulated and the growth promoting factor AjMegf6 was significantly down-regulated in siAjCTP1/2-1 group (Figure 10C). These findings further support the potential physiological role of AjCT2 signaling in promoting feeding and growth in A. japonicus. The added results are presented in Figure 10, with related descriptions in Section 2.6 (Results, lines 390-396), Section 3.4 (Discussion, line 597-603) and Section 4.9 (Materials and Methods, lines 879-888).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The abstract states that loss-of-function tests (RNAi knockdown) reveal a potential physiological role for AjCT2 signaling in promoting feeding and growth in A. japonicus. However, RNAi knockdown was only followed by analysis of transcript expression of CT-like receptors and not by the assessment of feeding or growth.

      Thank you for this helpful feedback. In the revised manuscript, we have supplemented the experiments to investigate the physiological effects of long-term reduced CT signaling, as suggested by the reviewer. These include measuring the dry weight of remaining bait and excrement, calculating the weight gain rate and specific growth rate, and testing the expression levels of the three growth factors (AjMegf6, AjGDF-8 and AjIgf) to further assess the function of AjCT2 on feeding and growth in A. japonicus. The results are as follows:

      (1) The weight gain rate and specific growth rate in the siAjCTP1/2-1 group were significantly decreased (As shown in Figure 10A).

      (2) Correspondingly, except for the phase I, the siAjCTP1/2-1 group had significantly increased remaining bait and decreased excrement during phases II-VI (Figure 10B).

      (3) The growth inhibitory factor AjGDF-8 was significantly up-regulated, while the growth promoting factor AjMegf6 was significantly down-regulated in the siAjCTP1/2-1 group (Figure 10C).

      These findings further support the potential physiological role of AjCT2 signaling in promoting feeding and growth in A. japonicus. We have incorporated these results into ‌Figure 10‌ and added related descriptions in the following sections: Results (section 2.6, line 390-396), Discussion (section 3.4, line 597-603) and Materials and methods (section 4.9, line 879-888).

      Regarding the original statement in the abstract “Furthermore, in vivo pharmacological experiments and loss-of-function tests revealed a potential physiological role for AjCT2 signaling in promoting feeding and growth in A. japonicus.” This sentence effectively summarizes our findings. Therefore, we have retained it in the revised manuscript while supplementing the missing experimental details as requested.

      (2) Information on the statistical tests that were performed is lacking for most experiments. It is recommended to include this information in the figure legends, in addition to the methods section. Details on the phylogenetic analysis (parameters and statistics used) and calculation of half maximal effective concentrations (calculation methods and confidence intervals) also need to be included in the manuscript.

      Thank you for this constructive feedback. As the reviewer suggested, statistical test information‌ has been incorporated into both the figure legends and the “4.10 Statistical Analysis” subsection of the Materials and methods (lines 900-910). Specifically:

      (1)Phylogenetic analysis details‌ (parameters and statistical approaches) are now provided in the Materials and methods section 4.2 (line 675-682);

      (2) Bootstrap test results‌ supporting the phylogenetic trees have been added to Figure 1B and 1C‌;

      (3)Half-maximal effective concentration (EC₅₀) calculations‌, including methodologies and confidence intervals, are documented in both the Figure 2B legend and the “4.10 Statistical Analysis” section (lines 900-910)‌‌.

      (3) In some figures (e.g. Figure 5A, 7A), the n number indicated does not match the number of data points shown in the figure panel. It is not clear what n represents here. In Figure 6B, an x-axis label is missing. In some figure legends (e.g. Figure 4 - Figure Supplement 1), the error bars and significance levels are not defined.

      We apologize for this error; we have corrected all quantity errors related to "n" in the manuscript’ figure legends. And also, the x-axis label was added in Figure 7B (previous Figure 6B), error bars and significance levels were defined in all figure legends clearly

      (4) It would be useful to explain what the difference is between the Cre and SRE luciferase assay and why these two assays were used to study receptor-activated signaling cascades. The source of the synthetic peptides is mentioned, but it is recommended to also state the purity of the synthetic peptides.

      Thank you for the valuable comments. As stated in the introduction (line 66-69)- “binding of CT to CTR in the absence of RAMPs can activate signaling via several downstream pathways, including cAMP accumulation, Ca<sup>2+</sup> mobilization, and ERK activation.” Based on this established mechanism, we selected ‌cAMP and Ca²⁺ signaling pathways‌ as biomarkers for studying receptor-activated cascades, with the following experimental rationale: CRE-Luc Reporter System functions as a cAMP response element detector and SRE-Luc Reporter System serves as an intracellular Ca²⁺ level indicator. In CRE-Luc detection, when the receptor is activated by a ligand, it couples with Gαs protein to activate the cAMP/PKA signaling pathway. The accumulation of cAMP can lead to the phosphorylation of PKA, and then enhance the transcription of CRE-containing genes. Therefore, significant increase in CRE-Luc activity directly correlates with cAMP accumulation. Similarly, SRE-Luc activity reflects dynamic changes in intracellular Ca<sup>2+</sup> levels. We have added the explanation of this part in the materials and methods section 4.4 (line 715-721). The purity of the synthetic peptides was >95%, and we have also added this information in section 4.4 (line 715) according to the reviewer’s suggestion.

      (5) In Figure 3B, it is difficult to see receptor internalization in response to the application of synthetic CT-like peptides, and a control condition (without peptide application) is lacking.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. The control condition (without peptide application) was added in Figure 3-figure supplement 1, which shows the localization of pEGFP-N1/receptors in the cell membrane. Upon stimulation with synthetic CT-like peptides (‌Materials and methods section 2.3‌), the receptors exhibit clear internalization into the cytoplasm, as visualized in ‌Figure 3B‌ through comparative analysis.

      (6) Differences in the activation of downstream signaling cascades between the three receptors are questionable because there is substantial variation in the experimental data and control conditions in different experiments (for example, in Figures 3A and 4A). To better represent this variation, it is recommended to plot individual data points onto the bar graphs in all figures and to nuance the interpretation of putative differences in downstream signaling of different receptors. Differences in the physiological roles of CT-like peptides may be explained by various mechanisms, including differences in peptide/receptor expression or in the potency of peptides to activate different receptors in vivo. It would be useful to elaborate on these different explanations in the discussion.

      We appreciate the reviewer's critical assessment. The observed variations in control conditions across experiments (e.g., Figures 3A & 4A) primarily arise from two methodological factors: ① Each experimental set used cells transfected with distinct receptor subtypes (e.g., AjPDFR1 vs. AjPDFR2), inherently introducing baseline variability due to differential receptor expression profiles. ② Independent cell culture batches were employed for replicate experiments to ensure biological reproducibility.  Importantly, these minor variations ‌did not compromise‌ the statistical significance of downstream signaling differences (p < 0.01 for all comparative analyses). And according to the reviewer’s suggestion, we have plotted individual data points onto the bar graphs in all figures.

      And also, according to the reviewer’s suggestion, we have expanded the discussion on receptor-specific signaling cascades in Section 3.4 (lines 589-609). Key findings include: In vivo pharmacological assays demonstrated that ‌only high concentrations of AjCT2 significantly enhanced feeding and growth rates in A. japonicus‌. In contrast, neither a low concentration of AjCT2 nor any concentration of AjCT1 (low or high) induced detectable effects. Furthermore, ‌long-term knockdown of AjCTP1/2 further validated the essential role of AjCT2 in regulating feeding and growth‌ in this species. To elucidate the receptor mediating AjCT2’s feeding- and growth-promoting effects, we selected AjPDFR2 based on its distinct activation profile:‌ AjCT2 selectively activated AjPDFR2, inducing downstream ERK1/2 phosphorylation, whereas AjCT1 exhibited no activity‌ toward this receptor. Given this receptor specificity, we performed AjPDFR2 knockdown experiments, which revealed phenotypic changes ‌consistent with those in AjCTP1/2 knockdown animals‌, including ‌significantly reduced WGR and SGR‌, alongside ‌increased remaining bait accumulation and diminished excrement output‌ compared to control. Collectively, these results support a model wherein AjCT2 promotes feeding and growth in A. japonicus via AjPDFR2-dependent activation of the cAMP/PKA/ERK1/2 and Gαq/Ca²⁺/PKC/ERK1/2 cascades‌. Considering the inherent complexity of neuropeptide signaling systems, which involve multiple GPCR subtypes coupled to diverse signaling cascades, ligands bound to the same receptor may activate distinct G protein subforms within a single cell (Møller et al., 2003; Mendel et al., 2020). Receptor activation modes may be modulated by structural polymorphisms or binding site diversity (Wong et al., 2000; Changeux, 2010), as well as by the differential efficacy of peptides in activating receptors in vivo‌.  

      (7) For the peptide injection experiments, it is recommended to explain the different animal groups in the results section. In addition, injection in the control condition seems to have a small effect on the wet weight. Therefore, it would be useful to compare control-injected and peptide-injected groups after injection.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comments. We have provided an expanded explanation of the animal group classifications in Section 2.6 (lines 367–375). We fully agree that a comparative analysis between the experimental and control groups post-injection is essential. However, since wet weight measurement is suboptimal for demonstrating feeding and growth variations, we re-evaluated the data using two validated metrics: weight gain rate (WGR) and specific growth rate (SGR) of A. japonicus. The results revealed that the high-concentration AjCT2 injection group exhibited significantly elevated weight gain rate and specific growth rate compared to the control group, suggesting a potential role of AjCT2 signaling in promoting feeding and growth in A. japonicus. These results are presented in Figure 8A, with detailed descriptions in Results Section 2.6 (lines 370–375) and methodology in Materials and Methods Section 4.8 (lines 847-851).

      (8) Regarding the RNAi knockdown experiments, it is not clear from the methods section what the siNC control exactly is, and how the interference rate is calculated.

      Thank you for this comment. The siNC control was siRNA which does not target any genes in A. japonicus, with interference rates quantified through the 2<sup>-ΔΔCT</sup> method to assess siRNA inhibition efficiency.‌ These methodological details have been incorporated into Materials and Methods Section 4.9 (lines 866–867 and 874-876) for enhanced clarity.‌

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Both the phylogenies are missing bootstrap tests. Please include this analysis. The phylogenetic analyses should also include other Family B ligands and receptors from both vertebrates and invertebrates because it is widely assumed that PDF is related to VIP given their shared roles in circadian clock and gut regulation. Therefore, this analysis needs to be more comprehensive than currently presented. Drosophila melanogaster receptors have also been excluded in spite of the Drosophila PDFR exhibiting ligand promiscuity. The legend should also include the full species names of the various taxa (or modify the figure to include full names) instead of referring to another table. The supplementary table was not available to this reviewer.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s constructive comments. According to the reviewer’s suggestion, we have incorporated the VIPRs and Drosophila melanogaster receptors into the comparative analysis and reanalyzed the phylogenies in Figure 1C, and both phylogenies included bootstrap tests (Figure 1B, 1C) in the revised manuscript. The full species names of the various taxa are listed in supplementary tables 1 and 2 in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Expression data indicate that AjCTP1/2 is expressed in both the longitudinal muscles and intestine. What are the cell types that express AjCTP1/2? Given that the authors show an effect of CT1 and CT2 on both of these tissues, it would be important to know whether this is local regulation (paracrine or autocrine) vs long-distance hormonal control by the nervous system. This can be addressed by performing in situ hybridization or immunohistochemistry of CT (using Asterias rubens CT antibody: https://doi.org/10.3389/fnins.2018.00382) on these tissues.

      Thank you for this feedback. We have now analysed CT-type neuropeptide expression in A. japonicus using immunohistochemistry with the antiserum to the A. rubens CT-type peptde ArCT, which has previously been shown to cross-react with CT-type neuropeptides in other echinoderms (Aleotti et al., 2022). We have added related descriptions in the following sections: Results (section 2.4, line 299-336), Discussion (section 3.3, line 545-554) and Materials and methods (section 4.6, line 785-817). ‌Consistent with this previous finding, the ArCT antiserum labelled neuronal cells and fibers in the central and peripheral nervous system and in the digestive system of A. japonicus (Figure 6). The specificity of immunostaining was confirmed by performing pre-absorption tests with the ArCT antigen peptide (Figure 6-figure supplement 1). The detection of immunostaining in the innervation of the intestine is consistent with PCR results and the relaxing effect of AjCT2 on intestine preparations. Interestingly, no immunostaining was observed in longitudinal muscle, which is inconsistent with the detection of AjCT1/2 transcripts in this tissue. This may reflect differences in the sensitivity of the methods employed to detect transcripts (PCR) and mature peptide (immunohistochemistry). The absence of ArCT-like immunoreactivity in the longitudinal muscles suggests that AjCT1 and AjCT2 may exert relaxing effects on this tissue in vivo via hormonal signaling mechanisms. However, because AjCT1/2 expression in the longitudinal muscles may be below the detection threshold of the ArCT antibodies, we can’t rule out the possibility that AjCT1/2 are released within the longitudinal muscles physiologically.       

      (3) While Drosophila DH31 can activate both PDF and DH31 receptors, the EC50 values differ drastically. Importantly, there is an independent gene encoding PDF which is a more sensitive ligand for the PDF receptor. This is in stark contrast to the situation presented here where the authors have yet to identify the PDF gene in their system. Outside Drosophila this cross signaling between the two systems has not been observed in any species. Based on this, I would argue that the ability of CTs to activate PDFR is not an evolutionary ancient property but rather an example of convergent evolution if supported by more evidence.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewers' insightful comments.‌ We agree that we cannot rule out the possibilty that ability of CT-type peptides to activate PDF-type receptors in Drosophila and A. japonicus has arisen independently. Therefore, we have modified the text in the discussion accordingly so that this alternative explanation for the effects of CT-type peptides on PDF-type receptors is also presented: “Alternatively, the ability of CT-type neuropeptides to act as ligands for PDF-type receptors in D. melanogaster and A. japonicus may have evolved independently. Further studies on a wider variety of both protostome (e.g. molluscs, annelids) and deuterostome taxa (e.g. other echinoderms, hemichordates) are needed to address this issue.”

      (4) AjCT1 and CT2 can activate the two PDF receptors ex vivo. However, their EC50 values are larger and the responses are lower compared to those seen for the CT receptor. Similar cross-talk between closely related peptide families is often observed in ex vivo systems (see: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.bbrc.2010.11.089 , https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.162276199 , https://doi.org/10.1093/molbev/mst269 and others). However, very few signaling systems exhibit this type of cross-talk in vivo. Without any in vivo evidence, I suspect that the more likely possibility is that the bona fide endogenous ligand for PDF receptors remains to be discovered. The authors could, however, perform peptide and receptor knockdown experiments and show overlap in phenotypes following CT knockdown and PDFR knockdown to support their claim.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewers' insightful critique. According to the reviewer’s suggestion, we have supplemented CTP and AjPDFR2 knockdown experiments, and measured the dry weight of remaining bait and excrement, as well as calculating the weight gain rate and specific growth rate in response to phenotypic changes. The results showed that weight gain rate and specific growth rate in experimental groups were significantly decreased respectively (As shown in Figure 10A and 11B), Correspondingly, except for the I phase, the siAjCTP1/2-1 group had significantly increased remaining bait and decreased excrement in II-VI phases (Figure 10B), the remaining bait weight was significantly increased in siAjPDFR2-1 group (except during phase I), while the weight of excrement was significantly decreased in phase V and VI (Figure 11C). Therefore, AjCT and AjPDFR2 knockdown experiments showed overlap in phenotypes, providing evidence that AjCT does act as an endogenous ligand for PDFR. These results were added in Figure 10 and Figure 11. The related description was added in the results section 2.6 (line 390-396), section 2.7 (line 427-439) and the materials and methods section 4.9 (line 879-898). We acknowledge, however, that other peptides, in addition AjCT1 and AjCT2, may also act as ligands for AjPDFR1 and AjPDFR2 in vivo and on-going studies in the Chen (OUC) and Elphick (QMUL) labs are attempting to address this issue

      (5) Why are receptor transcripts upregulated following peptide injection? Usually, increased ligand levels/signaling result in a compensatory decrease in receptor levels. These negative feedback loops maintain optimum signaling levels. Since the authors have successfully implemented RNAi for this CT precursor, what are the phenotypes on growth and feeding?

      We thank the reviewers for raising these critical points. Our responses are structured as follows: Firstly, our findings align with established mechanisms of neuropeptide-induced receptor modulation (Please check the reference Tiptanavattana et al. 2022). Secondly, based on the reviewer’s suggestion, we have supplemented the experiments to detect the phenotype variations on growth and feeding based on long-term reduced CT signaling, including measuring the dry weight of remaining bait and excrement, calculating the weight gain rate and specific growth rate, as well as testing the expression levels of the three growth factors (AjMegf6, AjGDF-8 and AjIgf). The results showed that weight gain rate and specific growth rate in siAjCTP1/2-1 group were significantly decreased (As shown in Figure 10A), Correspondingly, except for the I phase, the siAjCTP1/2-1 group had more remaining bait and less excrement in II-VI phases (Figure 10B). Furthermore, the growth inhibitory factor AjGDF-8 was significantly up-regulated and the growth promoting factors AjMegf6 were significantly down-regulated in siAjCTP1/2-1 group (Figure 10C). We have added these results in Figure 10, with detailed description in the results section 2.6 (line 390-396) and in the materials and methods section 4.9 (line 879-888). And after long-term continuous injections of siAjCTP1/2-1, we further recorded the feeding behavior of these sea cucumbers for three consecutive days. The remaining bait and feces were cleaned and the food was re-placed in the middle of the tank each day. We calculated the aggregation percentage (AP) of sea cucumbers around the food during the peak feeding period (2:00-4:00) each day, which is the best indicator for sea cucumber feeding behavior detecting. The results showed that the AP in siAjCTP1/2-1 group was significantly lower than that in control group. After dissection, we also found the intestines of siAjCTP1/2-1 group had less food and significantly degenerated (see author response image 1). All these results supported that long-term functional loss of AjCT2 negatively influence the feeding and growth of A. japonicus.

      Other comments:

      (6) What criteria do the authors use to classify some proteins as "type", some as "like" and others as "related"? In my opinion, DH31 could be referred to as CT-like or CT-type. Please use one term for clarity unless there is a scientific explanation behind this terminology.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. If you look at the paper by Cai et al. (2018) you will see in Figure 14 that CT-type peptides and DH31-type peptides are paralogous, probably due to a gene duplication in the common ancestor of the protostomes. The CT-related peptides in protostomes that have a disulphide bridge we would describe as CT-type because they have conserved a feature that is found in CT-type peptides in deuterostomes. Whereas the DH31 peptides we would describe as CT-like. But there is not a formal rule on this. It is possible the duplication event that gave rise to DH31 and CT-type peptides occurred in the common ancestor of the Bilateria but DH31-type signaling was lost in deuterostomes. On the other hand, if the gene duplication that gave rise to DH31-type peptides and CT-type peptides in protostomes did occur in a common ancestor of the protostomes, then DH31 and CT-type peptides in protostomes could be described as co-orthologs of CT-type peptides in deuterostomes. In this case, both CT peptides and DH31 peptides in protostomes could be described as CT-type. Here is a useful link for explanation of terms: https://omabrowser.org/oma/type/

      (7) Was genomic DNA removal step performed before cDNA synthesis for qRT-PCR?

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. The genomic DNA removal step was performed before cDNA synthesis for qRT-PCR and we have added the information in the section 4.5 (line 774-776).

      (8) Line 70: The presence of calcitonin-like peptides (DH31) and DH31 receptors in invertebrates was discovered long before the discoveries by Jekely 2013 and Mirabeau and Joly 2013. Please credit these original studies: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10841553/ and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15781884/.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We have credited these original studies in the revised manuscript.

      (9) Lines 72-74: Please cite https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24359412/.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We have cited it in the revised manuscript.

      (10) Line 87: Please cite https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15781884/.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We have cited it in the revised manuscript.

      (11) Lines 89-91: The functional significance of DH31 signalling to PDFR in Drosophila is known. See: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15781884/ and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30696873/. There are several studies that have shown the functions of DH31 signalling via DH31R.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We have corrected it and added all this studies in the revised manuscript.

      (12) Figure 1 Supplement 1: The tertiary models for CT1 and CT2 look completely different. This prediction is not in line with both ligands activating the same receptor.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We have deleted this supplementary figure.

      (13) Figure 1 Supplement 3 legend: Please add panel labels next to the corresponding receptor.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We have added panel labels next to the corresponding receptors as you suggested.

      (14) Figure 2: What does CO refer to?

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. CO (Control) refers to the stimulation of HEK293T transfected cells with serum-free DMEM, and we have added the detailed information in Figure 2 legend (line 251-252).

      (15) Figure 3: Due to the low magnification of the cells, it is difficult to see the localization of the receptor. It would also be more appropriate to use a membrane marker rather than DAPI which does not label the cytoplasm or membrane where the receptor can be found.

      we appreciate the reviewer's insightful comment regarding the experimental controls.‌ The baseline receptor localization data under non-stimulated conditions are presented in ‌Figure 3—figure supplement 1‌, demonstrating constitutive membrane distribution of pEGFP-N1-tagged receptors. Upon stimulation with synthetic CT-like peptides, qualitative imaging analysis revealed significant ligand-induced receptor internalization into the cytoplasm (Figure 3B).

      (16) Figure 9: Please include PDF precursor and receptor as separate columns. Also, Drosophila CT/DH31 receptors have been characterized.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We have added PDF precursor, predicted peptides and receptors as separate columns in the revised manuscript Figure 12. And also, we corrected the error summary of Drosophila CT/DH31 receptors according to your suggestions.

      (17) Table 1: It is not very clear why there are multiple columns for ERK1/2 with different outcomes.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. Although the cAMP/PKA or Gαq/Ca<sup>2+</sup>/PKC signaling is activated after ligand binding to receptors, the downstream ERK1/2 cascade is not necessarily activated. Therefore, we counted the activation status of cAMP/PKA and its downstream ERK1/2 cascade, and Gαq/Ca<sup>2+</sup>/PKC and its downstream cascade in Table 1 respectively. We have optimized Table1 to make it clearer in the revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary: As TDP-43 mislocalization is a hallmark of multiple neurodegenerative diseases, the authors seek to identify pathways that modulate TDP-43 levels. To do this, they use a FACS based genome wide CRISPR KD screen in a Halo tagged TDP-43 KI iPSC line. Their screen identifies a number of genetic modulators of TDP-43 expression including BORC which plays a role in lysosome transport.

      Strengths:

      Genome wide CRISPR based screen identifies a number of modulators of TDP-43 expression to generate hypotheses regarding RNA BP regulation and perhaps insights into disease.

      Weaknesses:

      It is unclear how altering TDP-43 levels may relate to disease where TDP-43 is not altered in expression but mislocalized. This is a solid cell biology study, but the relation to disease is not clear without providing evidence of BORC alterations in disease or manipulation of BORC reversing TDP-43 pathology in disease.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and have updated the discussion to include more discussion of the role TDP-43 may play in the BORCS8-associated neurodegenerative disorder and how understanding how lysosome localization changing TDP-43 levels may help patients (lines 313-321).

      The mechanisms by which BORC and lysosome transport modulate TDP-43 expression are unclear. Presumably, this may be through altered degradation of TDP protein but this is not addressed.

      We agree with the reviewer that understanding the mechanism by which lysosome transport regulates TDP-43 levels is important and plan to examine this in future studies.

      Previous studies have demonstrated that TDP-43 levels can be modulated by altering lysosomal degradation so the identification of lysosomal pathways is not particularly novel.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and have updated the text to make this clearer (lines 310-313). What hasn’t been observed previously is a change in lysosome localization affecting TDP-43 levels.

      It is unclear whether this finding is specific to TDP-43 levels or whether lysosome localization may more broadly impact proteostasis in particular of other RNA BPs linked to disease.

      We agree that this is an interesting question and something that should be investigated in future studies.

      Unclear whether BORC depletion alters lysosome function or simply localization.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. Lysosome function related to protein turnover has not yet been examined in the literature after loss of BORC, but other aspects of lysosome function (including lipid metabolism and autophagic flux) have been shown to be disrupted upon loss of BORC. We have updated the discussion to address this (lines 292-296).

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary: The authors employ a novel CRISPRi FACS screen and uncover the lysosomal transport complex BORC as a regulator of TDP-43 protein levels in iNeurons. They also find that BORC subunit knockouts impair lysosomal function, leading to slower protein turnover and implicating lysosomal activity in the regulation of TDP-43 levels. This is highly significant for the field given that a) other proteins could also be regulated in this way, b) understanding mechanisms that influence TDP-43 levels are significant given that its dysregulation is considered a major driver of several neurodegenerative diseases and c) the novelty of the proposed mechanism.

      Strengths:

      The novelty and information provided by the CRISPRi screen. The authors provide evidence indicating that BORC subunit knockouts impair lysosomal function, leading to slower protein turnover and implicating lysosomal activity in the regulation of TDP-43 levels and show a mechanistic link between lysosome mislocalization and TDP-43 dysregulation. The study highlights the importance of localized lysosome activity in axons and suggests that lysosomal dysfunction could drive TDP-43 pathologies associated with neurodegenerative diseases like FTD/ALS. Further, the methods and concepts will have an impact to the larger community as well. The work also sets up for further work to understand the somewhat paradoxical findings that even though the tagged TDP-43 protein is reduced in the screen, it does not alter cryptic exon splicing and there is a longer TDP-43 half-life with BORC KD.

      Weaknesses:

      While the data is very strong, the work requires some additional clarification.

      We thank the reviewer for these comments. Our detailed responses are included below in the “recommendations for authors” section.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary: In this work, Ryan et al. have performed a state-of-the-art full genome CRISP-based screen of iNeurons expressing a tagged version of TDP-43 in order to determine expression modifiers of this protein. Unexpectedly, using this approach the authors have uncovered a previously undescribed role of the BORC complex in affecting the levels of TDP-43 protein, but not mRNA expression. Taken together, these findings represent a very solid piece of work that will certainly be important for the field.

      Strengths:

      BORC is a novel TDP-43 expression modifier that has never been described before and it seemingly acts on regulating protein half life rather than transcriptome level. It has been long known that different labs have reported different half-lives for TDP-43 depending on the experimental system but no work has ever explained these discrepancies. Now, the work of Ryan et al. has for the time identified one of these factors which could account for these differences and play an important role in disease (although this is left to be determined in future studies).

      The genome wide CRISPR screening has demonstrated to yield novel results with high reproducibility and could eventually be used to search for expression modifiers of many other proteins involved in neurodegeneration or other diseases

      Weaknesses:

      The fact that TDP-43 mRNA does not change following BORCS6 KD is based on a single qRT- PCR that does not really cover all possibilities. For example, the mRNA total levels may not change but the polyA sites may have switched from the highly efficient pA1 to the less efficient and nuclear retained pA4. There are therefore a few other experiments that could have been performed to make this conclusion more compelling, maybe also performing RNAscope experiments to make sure that no change occurred in TDP-43 mRNA localisation in cells.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. To address this point, we performed an analysis of polyA sites on our RNA sequencing data using REPAC and did not find a change in TDP-43 poly adenylation after BORC KD (Figure S6C). Other transcripts do have altered polyA sites, which are summarized in Figure S6C. We also performed HCR FISH for TARDBP mRNA in TDP-43 and BORC KD neurons. While we did not see a difference in RNA localization (see A below, numbers on brackets indicate p-values), we also were not able to detect a significant difference in total TARDBP mRNA levels upon TDP-43 KD (see B below, numbers on brackets indicate p-values), suggesting that some of the signal detected is non-specific to TARDBP. Because of this, we cannot conclusively say that BORC KD does not alter TARDBP mRNA localization using the available tools.

      Author response image 1.

      Even assuming that the mRNA does not change, no explanation for the change in TDP-43 protein half life has been proposed by the authors. This will presumably be addressed in future studies: for example, are mutants that lack different domains of TDP-43 equally affected in their half-lives by BORC KD?. Alternatively, can a mass-spec be attempted to see whether TDP-43 PTMs change following BORCS6 KD?

      We agree with the reviewer that these are important experiments that could be done in the future to further examine the mechanism by which loss of BORC alters TDP-43 half-life. We examined our proteomics data for differential phosphorylation and ubiquitination in NT vs BORC KD (Figure S7G-H). We were unable to detect PTMs on TDP-43, so we cannot say if they contribute to the change in TDP-43 half-life we observed.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Recommendations are detailed in the public review.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Ryan et al, employ a CRISPRi FACS screen and uncover the lysosomal transport complex BORC as a regulator of TDP-43 protein levels in iNeurons. The authors provide strong evidence indicating that BORC subunit knockouts impair lysosomal function, leading to slower protein turnover and implicating lysosomal activity in the regulation of TDP-43 levels. The authors then provided additional evidence of TDP-43 perturbations under lysosome-inhibiting drug conditions, underscoring a mechanistic link between lysosome mislocalization and TDP-43 dysregulation. The study highlights the importance of localized lysosome activity in axons and suggests that lysosomal dysfunction could drive TDP-43 pathologies associated with neurodegenerative diseases like FTD/ALS. The work is exciting and could be highly informative for the field.

      Concerns: There are some disconnects between the figures and the main text that can benefit from refining of the figures to align better with the main text. This does not require additional experiments other than perhaps Figure 4B. The impact of the work could be further discussed - it is an interesting disconnect between the fact BORC KD causes decreased IF of the Halo-tagged TDP-43 and lysosomal transport, however this reduction does not impact cryptic exon expression and also increases TDP-43 half life (and of other proteins). It is a very interesting and potentially informative part of the manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for their detailed reading of our manuscript. We have endeavored to better match the figures and the text and have added more discussion of the impact of the work.

      Minor:

      (1) Suggestion: relating to the statement "Gene editing was efficient, with almost all selected clones correctly edited." - please provide values or %.

      We updated the text to remove the statement about the editing efficiency, instead saying we identified a clone that was correct for both sequence and karyotype (lines 83-85).

      (2) Relating to Figure 1A: Please provide clarification regarding tagging strategy with the halotag - e.g. why in front of exon2.

      We updated the figure legend to reflect that the start codon for TDP-43 is in exon 2, hence why we placed the HaloTag there.

      (3) Relating to Figure S1: A and B seems to have been swapped.

      We thank the reviewer for catching this mistake and have fixed the figure/text.

      (4) Relating to Figure 1B: figure legend does not indicate grayscale coloring of TDP-43 signal.

      We have added text in the figure legend to indicate that the Halo signal is shown in grayscale in the left-handed panels.

      (5) Relating to Figure 1C: can the authors clarify abbreviation for 'NT' in text and legend.

      We thank the reviewer for catching this and have indicated in the text and figure legend that NT refers to the non-targeting sgRNA that was used as a control for comparison to the TDP-43 KD sgRNA.

      (6) Relating to figure 2B and S2A: main text mentioned "Non-targeting Guides" however the figure does not show non-targeting guides to confirm.

      We thank the reviewer for catching this oversight, we updated the figure legends for these figures to indicate that the non-targeting (NT) guides are shown in gray on the rank plot. They cluster towards the middle, more horizontal portion of the graphs, showing that the more vertical sections of the graph are hits.

      (7) Suggestion: To make it easier on the reader, please provide overlap numbers for the following statement ..."In comparing the top GO terms associated with genes that increase or decrease Halo-TDP-43 levels in iNeurons, we found that almost none altered Halo-TDP-43 levels in iPSCs...".

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and have updated the text to indicate that only a single term is shared between the iPSC and iNeuron screens (lines 113-117).

      (8) Relating to the statement "We cloned single sgRNA plasmids for 59 genes that either increased or decreased Halo-TDP-43 in iNeurons but not in iPSCs." Can the authors provide a list of the 59 genes.

      We have included a new column in the supplemental table S1 indicating the result of the Halo microscopy validation to hopefully clarify which genes lead to a validated phenotype and which did not.

      (9) Relating to the statement "To rule out the possibility of neighboring gene or off-target effects of CRISPRi, as has been reported previously15, we examined the impact of BORC knockout (KO) on TDP-43 levels. Using the pLentiCRISPR system, which expresses the sgRNA of interest on the same plasmid as an active Cas916 we found that KO of BORCS7 using two different sgRNAs decreased TDP-43 levels by immunofluorescence (Figure 5C-D)." Please provide clarification as to why BORCS7 was chosen out of all the BORCS? From the data presentation thus far (Figure 4B & 5A), the reader might have anticipated testing BORCS6 for panels 5C-D.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We tried a couple of BORCs with the pLentiCRISPR system, but BORCS7 was the only one we were convinced we got functional knockout for based on lysosome localization. We think that either the guides were not ideal for the other BORC components we tried, or we did not get efficient gene editing across the population of cells tested. Because we had previously been working with knock down and CRISPRi guides are not the same as CRISPR knock out guides, we couldn’t use the existing guide sequences we know work well for BORC. Since loss of one BORC gene causes functional loss of the complex and restricts lysosomes to the soma, we did not feel it necessary to assay all 8 genes.

      (10) Relating to the statement "We treated Halo-TDP-43 neurons with various drugs that disrupt distinct processes in the lysosome pathway and asked if Halo-TDP-43 levels changed. Chloroquine (decreases lysosomal acidity), CTSBI (inhibits cathepsin B protease), ammonium chloride (NH4Cl, inhibits lysosome-phagosome fusion), and GPN (ruptures lysosomal membranes) all consistently decreased Halo-TDP-43 levels (Figure 6A-B, S5A-C)" Please provide interpretations for Figures S5A and S5C in text.

      We thank the reviewer for catching this oversight and have updated the text accordingly (lines 183-191).

      (11) Relating to figure 6E: please provide in legend what the different colors used correlate with (i.e. green/brown for BORCS7 KD)?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. These colors were mistakenly left in the figure from a version looking to see if the observed effects were driven by a single replicate rather than a consistent change (each replicate has a slightly different color). As the colors are intermingled and not separated, we concluded the effect was not driven by a single replicate. The colors have been removed from the updated figure for simplicity.

      (12) Relating to the statement "We observed a similar trend for many proteins in the proteome (Figure 8B)" This statement can benefit from stating which trend the authors are referring to, it is currently unclear from the volcano plot shown for Figure 8B.

      We thank the reviewer for catching this and have updated the text accordingly.

      (13) Relating to the statement "For almost every gene, we observed an increase or decrease in Halo-TDP-43 levels without a change in Halo-TDP-43 localization or compartment specific level changes (Figure 4B)." Please provide: (1) the number of genes examined, (2) additional clarification of "localization" and "compartment specific" level changes, (3) some quantification and or additional supporting data of the imaging results. Figures 5A-B presents with the same concern relating to the comment "To determine if results from Halo-TDP-43 expression assays also applied to endogenous, untagged TDP-43 levels, we selected 22 genes that passed Halo validation and performed immunofluorescence microscopy for endogenous (untagged) TDP-43 (Figure 4D-G,5A-B, S4E-F)." please clarify further.

      We thank the reviewer for requesting this clarification. This statement refers to all 59 genes tested by Halo imaging; only one (MFN2) showed any hints of aggregation or changes in localization, every other gene (58) showed what appeared to be global changes in Halo-TDP-43 levels. We were initially intrigued by the MFN2 phenotype; however, we were unable to replicate it on endogenous TDP-43 and thus concluded that this might be an effect specific to the tagged protein. The representative images shown in Figure 4B are representative of the changes we observed across all 59 genes tested (if changes were present). From the 59 genes that we observed a change in Halo-TDP-43 levels by microscopy, we selected a smaller number to move forward to immunofluorescence for TDP-43. We picked a subset of genes from each of the different categories we had identified (mitochondria, m6A, ubiquitination, and some miscellaneous) to validate by immunofluorescence, thinking that genes in the same pathway would act similarly. We have added a column to the supplemental table S1 indicating which genes were tested by immunofluorescence and what the result was. We have also attempted to clarify the results section to make the above clearer.

      (14) Relating to the statement "To determine if results from Halo-TDP-43 expression assays also applied to endogenous, untagged TDP-43 levels, we selected 22 genes that passed Halo validation and performed immunofluorescence microscopy for endogenous (untagged) TDP-43 (Figure 4D-G, 5A-B, S4E-F). Of these, 18 (82%) gene knockdowns showed changes in endogenous TDP-43 levels (Figure 4D-G, S4E-F)." It is difficult to identify the 18 or 22 genes in the figures as described in the main text.

      We added columns to the supplemental table S1 listing the genes and the result in each assay.

      (15) Relating to figures S7A and 8A and the first part of the section "TDP-43, like the proteome, shows longer turnover time in BORC KD neurons" Can the authors provide clarification why the SunTag assay was performed with BORCS6 KD (S7A) but the follow-up experiment (8A) was performed with BORCS7 KD. Does BORCS6 KD show similar results as BORCS7 with the SunTag assay, and does TDP-43 protein abundance with BORCS7 KD show similar results as BORCS6?

      Because loss of any of the 8 BORC genes causes functional loss of BORC and lysosomes to be restricted to the peri-nuclear space, we used BORC KDs interchangeably. Additionally, all BORC KDs had similar effects on Halo-TDP-43 levels.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Adding more control experiments that TDP-43 mRNA is really not affected following BORC KD

      We performed a FISH experiment to examine TARDBP mRNA localization upon BORC KD but were unable to conclusively say whether BORC KD changes TARDBP mRNA localization (see above). We also analyzed our RNA sequencing experiment for alternative polyadenylation sites upon BORC KD. Results are in Figure S6C.

      Although this could be part of a future study, the authors should try and determine what are the changes to TDP-43 that drive a change in the half-life.

      We agree with the reviewer that these are important experiments and hope to figure this out in the future.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The manuscript by Sayeed et al. uses a comprehensive series of multi-omics approaches to demonstrate that late-stage human cytomegalovirus (HCMV) infection leads to a marked disruption of TEAD1 activity, a concomitant loss of TEAD1-DNA interactions, and extensive chromatin remodeling. The data are thoroughly presented and provide evidence for the role of TEAD1 in the cellular response to HCMV infection.

      However, a key question remains unresolved: is the observed disruption of TEAD1 activity a direct consequence of HCMV infection, or could it be secondary to the broader innate antiviral response? In this respect, the study would benefit from experiments that assess the effect of TEAD1 overexpression or knockdown/deletion on HCMV replication dynamics. Such functional assays could help delineate whether TEAD1 perturbation directly influences viral replication or is part of a downstream/indirect cellular response, providing deeper mechanistic insights.

      To examine the effect of TEAD1 on HCMV, we performed an experiment in primary human foreskin fibroblasts (HFF) which were stably transduced with constitutive TEAD1. To constitutively express TEAD1, we cloned the open reading frame of TEAD1 into pLenti-puro (Plasmid #39481 from Addgene). We selected for transduced cells using puromycin. For these experiments, we first assessed two multiplicities of infection (MOI): 1 and 10 (Reviewer Response Figure 1). Based on the TEAD1 expression in these cells relative to non-transduced HFF cells, we performed HCMV infection experiments in cells transduced with TEAD1 lentivirus at an MOI of 1.

      For infections, we used a version of HCMV in which the C terminus of the capsi-associated tegument protein pUL32 (pp150) is tagged by enhanced green fluorescent protein (GFP) (PMID: 15708994). This experimental design allowed us to assess the impact of constitutive TEAD1 expression on HCMV infection. GFP and immediate early protein expression levels were measured 48 hours after infection by flow cytometry.

      After infecting parent cells (no constitutive TEAD1) and TEAD1 constitutively expressing cells with a GFP-positive HCMV at MOIs of 0.3 and 1, we identified equivalent GFP expression in the two conditions, indicating equivalent levels of HCMV infection 48 hours after initial infection (Reviewer Response Figure 1A). We also identified equivalent immediate early protein expression at 48 hours after infection, as measured both by percent positivity (Reviewer Response Figure 1B) and mean florescent intensity (Reviewer Response Figure 1C). At 96 hours with an MOI of 3, constitutive expression of TEAD1 led to a slight reduction in the expression of the HCMV proteins pp65 (encoded by UL83) and UL44 at 72 and 96 hours post initial infection (Reviewer Response Figure 1D). These results suggest that TEAD1 expression has minimal effects, if any, on the expression of these two late HCMV proteins in fibroblasts.  Regulation of particular HCMV genes by TEAD1 is likely to be central for HCMV replication and reactivation in other specialized cell types relevant to viral pathogenesis and disease. However, definitive studies are beyond the scope of the current study. 

      Author response image 1.

      Constitutive TEAD1 expression reduces expression of two HCMV late genes at 72 and 96 hours after infection. A-C. Primary human foreskin fibroblasts with and without constitutive TEAD1 expression were infected with pp150-GFP HCMV at a multiplicity of infection (MOI) of 0.3 or 1 and assessed 48 hours post infection. A. HCMV positive cells were quantified by measuring the percent of cells that were GFP positive. B. The percentages of immediate early (IE1/IE2) positive cells were quantified by flow cytometry. C. The mean florescence intensity of immediate early positive cells was quantified by flow cytometry. D. Primary human foreskin fibroblasts with and without constitutive TEAD1 expression were infected with pp150-GFP HCMV at an MOI of 1 and assessed by Western blot at various time point post infection. UL44 and pp65 are expressed late in the cascade of HCMV gene expression. TEAD1 expression levels and uncropped Westerns are provided in Supplemental Figure S8

      Reviewer Response Methods:

      Flow cytometric analysis of viral entry and spread using GFP expression and HCMV immediate early (IE) protein staining

      Parental and TEAD1 transduced human foreskin fibroblasts were seeded into 12-well plates at 1.0 × 10<sup>5</sup> cells per well and either mock infected or infected with pp150-GFP HCMV (PMID: 15708994) at MOIs of 0.3 or 1 on the same day. Cells were trypsinized at appropriate time points and then neutralized with complete medium. Cell suspensions were spun down at 500g for 5 minutes, and the cell pellet was fixed in 70% ethanol for 30 minutes. Following fixation, cells were permeabilized in phosphate-buffered saline (PBS) containing 0.5% bovine serum albumin (BSA) and 0.5% Tween 20 for 10 minutes at 4°C, pelleted, and then stained with IE1/IE2 antibody (mAb810-Alexa Fluor 488) diluted in PBS supplemented with 0.5% BSA for 2 hours. Cells were washed with PBS supplemented with 0.5% BSA–0.5% Tween 20 and then resuspended in PBS. Cells were analyzed using a flow cytometer (BD Biosciences). Infected cells were also trypsinized at appropriate time points, neutralized in the appropriate media, and directly analyzed for GFP positivity on the flow cytometer.

      Western blot analyses of HCMV protein expression in infected cells with and without constitutive TEAD1 expression

      TEAD1 transduced and parental human foreskin fibroblasts were seeded into 6-well cell culture plates at a density of 3.0 × 10<sup>5</sup> cells per well and either mock infected or infected with pp150-GFP HCMV (PMID: 15708994) at an MOI of 1. Whole-cell lysates were collected at various time points post-infection, separated by SDS-PAGE, and transferred to nitrocellulose for Western blot analysis. Western blots were probed with the following primary antibodies: anti-IE1/IE2 (Chemicon), anti-UL44 (kind gift of John Shanley), anti-pp65 (Virusys Corporation), and cellular β-actin antibody (Bethyl Laboratories). Next, each blot was incubated with appropriate horseradish peroxidase-conjugated anti-rabbit or anti-mouse IgG secondary antibodies. Chemiluminescence was detected and quantified using a C-DiGit blot scanner from Li-Cor.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work uses genomic and biochemical approaches for HCMV infection in human fibroblasts and retinal epithelial cell lines, followed by comparisons and some validations using strategies such as immunoblots. Based on these analyses, they propose several mechanisms that could contribute to the HCMV-induced diseases, including closing of TEAD1-occupying domains and reduced TEAD1 transcript and protein levels, decreased YAP1 and phospho-YAP1 levels, and exclusion of TEAD1 exon 6.

      Strengths:

      The genomics experiments were done in duplicates and data analyses show good technical reproducibility. Data analyses are performed to show changes at the transcript and chromatin level changes, followed by some Western blot validations.

      Weaknesses:

      This work, at the current stage, is quite correlative since no functional studies are done to show any causal links. For readers who are outside the field, some clarifications of the system and design need to be stated.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Here are some specific questions:

      (1) Since all current analyses are correlative, it is difficult to know which changes are of biological significance. For example, experiments manipulating TEAD transcription factor or YAP with effects on how cells respond to HCMV infection would significantly strengthen the conclusions, which are largely speculations now.

      Please see response to Reviewer 1, which highlights newly added functional assays that include the constitutive (forced) expression of TEAD1, as suggested.

      (2) How similar are these cell lines (human fibroblasts and retinal epithelial cell lines) resembling the actually infected cells in patients that lead to symptoms?

      In infected cells in patients, HCMV initially infects both fibroblasts and epithelial cells. HCMV penetrates fibroblasts by fusion at the cell surface but is endocytosed into epithelial cells (PMID: 18077432). Thus, most experimental studies of HCMV in vitro use primary human foreskin fibroblasts and a retinal epithelial cell line, as we do in this study.

      Additional information on primary human fibroblasts as a model of HCMV infection in humans

      There is a nice review article that provides the history of the study of the molecular biology of HCMV that describes how Stanley Plotkin from the Wistar Institute first identified human fibroblast HCMV infected cells (PMID: 24639214). The primary fibroblasts of the foreskin of neonates are available commercially (sometimes called HS68) and model neonatal HCMV infection. Neonatal HCMV, or Congenital Cytomegalovirus, is a leading cause of congenital infection and a significant cause of non-genetic hearing loss in the US (https://www.cdc.gov/cytomegalovirus/congenital-infection/index.html). While many infected newborns appear healthy at birth, a substantial percentage experience long-term health problems, including hearing loss, developmental delays, and vision problems (PMID: 39070527). 

      More information on ARPE-3 as a model of HCMV infection in humans

      HCMV retinitis is a leading cause of vision loss and results from HCMV infection of retinal cells. Retinal epithelial cells are the primary target for HCV infection in the eye. The cell line ARPE-19 is derived from a primary human adult retinal pigment epithelium explant and is commonly used to study HCMV and is thought to be physiologically relevant to the human infection (PMID: 8558129 and 28356702). When compared to primary retinal pigment epithelia, ARPE-19 cells develop a similar cellular and molecular phenotype to primary cells from adults and neonates (PMID: 28356702).

      (3) What is the rationale for using 48 hours' infection? Is this the typical timeframe for patients to develop symptoms?

      HCMV genes are expressed in a temporally controlled manner (PMID: 35417700). Early genes (within the first 4 hours) are involved in regulating transcription, while genes within 4-48 hours are involved in DNA replication and further transcriptional regulation. The 48 hour mark corresponds to the onset of significant viral replication and interactions between the virus and the host immune response. After 48 hours, late genes are expressed, which encode structural proteins as well as viral proteins that inhibit host anti-viral responses.  Most studies that focus on the role of HCMV’s early and immediate early genes are performed at 24 or 48 hours. Similarly, most studies that assess the initial innate immune response to HCMV are performed within the initial 48 hours after in vitro infection.

      In most people with healthy immune systems, there are no symptoms (PMID: 34168328). While 60% of people in developed countries and 90% of those in developing countries are serologically positive for past infection, it is challenging to study the kinetics of symptom development due to heterogeneity in the initial virion exposure, the cell types that are initially infected, and immune response. HCMV persists throughout the lifetime of the infected individual by establishing latent infection.

      Also, among all these large-scale global changes, what are primary and what are secondary?

      A kinetic study with many timepoints would be needed to identify the primary and secondary genomic changes associated with HCMV infection. These experiments, while exciting, are beyond the scope of this manuscript.

      (4) Fig.2: In addition to the changes for each cell type, comparison of unchanged, closed and opened with infection regions between the two cell types could be informative for commonalities and differences between cell types.

      This was a good suggestion.  We have added a new Supplemental Figure S2, which compares the differentially accessible regions between the two cell types:

      We have also added the following sentence to the Results section:

      “Comparison of differentially accessible chromatin between ARPE and HFF revealed that the vast majority of the HCMV-induced changes are specific to one of the two cell types (Supplemental Figure S2).”

      (5) "Of the 23,018 loops present in both infected and uninfected cells, only 10 are differential at a 2-fold cutoff and a false discovery rate (FDR) <0.01."

      We thank the reviewer for drawing our attention to the differential chromatin looping analysis.  Your comment prompted us to re-examine the methodologies we employed to identify differential chromatin looping events between uninfected and infected cells.  In the process, we realized that the relatively low resolution of chromatin looping assays such as HiChIP might require additional care in classifying a particular loop as shared or differential when comparing two experimental conditions. We have thus revamped our differential chromatin looping methodologies by adding 5kb “pads” to either end of each chromatin loop “anchor”.

      The corresponding passage now reads:

      “We next used the HiChIP data to identify HCMV-dependent differential chromatin looping events (see Methods). In total, uninfected cells have 143,882 loops. With HCMV infection, 90,198 of these loops are lost, and 44,045 new loops are gained (Supplemental Dataset 3). Because the number of altered loops was large, we repeated loop calling and differential analysis with FDR values less than 0.05, 0.01, and 0.001 (Supplemental Dataset 3). For all three cutoffs, the percentage of loops specific to an infection state were very similar. We also randomly downsampled the number of input pairs used for calling loops to verify that our results were not due to a difference in read depth (Supplemental Dataset 3). For the three smaller subsets of data, the number of loops specific to an infection state only changed slightly. The full quantification of each chromatin looping event and comparisons of events between conditions are provided in Supplemental Dataset 6.”

      Are these cells asynchronous and how to determine whether certain changes are not due to cell cycle stage differences?

      Cells were plated to an identical density of cells per well before either mock or HCMV infection for this study. Based on the differentially expressed genes cell cycle pathways were not amongst the top 50 enriched molecular pathways.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Weakness:

      Although a familiarity preference is not found, it is possible that this is related to the nature of the stimuli and the amount of learning that they offer. While infants here are exposed to the same perceptual stimulus repeatedly, infants can also be familiarised to more complex stimuli or scenarios. Classical statistical learning studies for example expose infants to specific pseudo-words during habituation/familiarisation, and then test their preference for familiar vs novel streams of pseudo-words. The amount of learning progress in these probabilistic learning studies is greater than in perceptual studies, and familiarity preferences may thus be more likely to emerge there. For these reasons, I think it is important to frame this as a model of perceptual habituation. This would also fit well with the neural net that was used, which is processing visual stimuli rather than probabilistic structures. If statements in the discussion are limited to perceptual paradigms, they would make the arguments more compelling. 

      Thank you for your thoughtful feedback. We have now qualified our claims more explicitly throughout the manuscript to clarify the scope of our study. Specifically, we have made the following revisions:

      (1) Title Update: We have modified the title to “A stimulus-computable rational model of visual habituation in infants and adults” to explicitly specify the domain of our model.

      (2) Qualifying Language Throughout Introduction: We have refined our language throughout the introduction to ensure the scope of our claims is clear. Specifically, we have emphasized that our model applies to visual habituation paradigms by incorporating qualifying language where relevant. At the end of Section 1, we have revised the statement to: "Habituation and dishabituation to sequential visual stimuli are well described by a rational analysis of looking time." This clarification makes sure that our model is framed within the context of visual habituation paradigms, particularly those involving structured sequences of stimuli, while acknowledging that habituation extends beyond the specific cases we study.

      (3) New Paragraph on Scope in the Introduction: We have added language in the Introduction acknowledging that while visual habituation is a fundamental mechanism for learning, it is not the only form of habituation. Specifically, we highlight that: “While habituation is a broadly studied phenomenon across cognitive domains—including language acquisition, probabilistic learning, and concept formation—our focus here is on visual habituation, where infants adjust their attention based on repeated exposure to a visual stimulus.”

      (4) New Paragraph on Scope in the General Discussion: We have also revisited this issue in the General Discussion. We added a dedicated paragraph discussing the scope: “This current work focuses on visual habituation, a fundamental but specific form of habituation that applies to sequential visual stimuli. While habituation has been studied across various domains, our model is specifically designed to account for looking time changes in response to repeated visual exposure. This focus aligns with our choice of perceptual representations derived from CNNs, which process visual inputs rather than abstract probabilistic structures. Visual habituation plays a foundational role in infant cognition, as it provides a mechanism for concept learning based on visual experience. However, it does not encompass all forms of habituation, particularly those involving complex rule learning or linguistic structures. Future work should investigate whether models like RANCH can be extended to capture habituation mechanisms in other learning contexts.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      There are no formal tests of the predictions of RANCH against other leading hypotheses or models of habituation. This makes it difficult to evaluate the degree to which RANCH provides an alternative account that makes distinct predictions from other accounts. I appreciate that because other theoretical descriptions haven't been instantiated in formal models this might be difficult, but some way of formalising them to enable comparison would be useful. 

      We appreciate the reviewer's concern regarding formal comparisons between RANCH and other leading hypotheses of habituation. A key strength of RANCH is that it provides quantitative, stimulus-computable predictions of looking behavior—something that existing theoretical accounts do not offer. Because previous models can not generate predictions about behaviors, we can not directly compare the previous model with RANCH. 

      The one formal model that the reviewer might be referring to is the Goldilocks model, discussed in the introduction and shown in Figure 1. We did in fact spend considerable time in an attempt to implement a version of the Goldilocks model as a stimulus-computable framework for comparison. However, we found that it required too many free parameters, such as the precise shape of the inverted U-shape that the Goldilocks model postulates, making it difficult to generate robust predictions that we would feel confident attributing to this model specifically. This assertion may come as a surprise to a reader who expects that formal models should be able to make predictions across many situations, but prior models 1) cannot be applied to specific stimuli, and 2) do not generate dynamics of looking time within each trial. These are both innovations of our work. Instead, even prior formal proposals derive metrics (e.g., surprisal) that can only be correlated with aggregate looking time. And prior, non-formalized theories, such as the Hunter and Ames model, are simply not explicit enough to implement. 

      To clarify this point, we have now explicitly stated in the Introduction that existing models are not stimulus-computable and do not generate predictions for looking behavior at the level of individual trials: 

      “Crucially, RANCH is the first stimulus-computable model of habituation, allowing us to derive quantitative predictions from raw visual stimuli. Previous theoretical accounts have described broad principles of habituation, but they do not generate testable, trial-by-trial predictions of looking behavior. As a result, direct comparisons between RANCH and these models remain challenging: existing models do not specify how an agent decides when to continue looking or disengage, nor do they provide a mechanistic link between stimulus properties and looking time. By explicitly modeling these decision processes, RANCH moves beyond post-hoc explanations and offers a computational framework that can be empirically validated and generalized to new contexts.” 

      We also highlight that our empirical comparisons in Figure 1 evaluate theoretical predictions based on existing conceptual models using behavioral data, rather than direct model-to-model comparisons: 

      “Addressing these three challenges allowed us to empirically test competing hypotheses about habituation and dishabituation using our experimental data (Figure

      \ref{fig:conceptual}). However, because existing models do not generate quantitative predictions, we could not directly compare RANCH to alternative computational models. Instead, we evaluated whether RANCH accurately captured key behavioral patterns in looking time.”

      The justification for using the RMSEA fitting approach could also be stronger - why is this the best way to compare the predictions of the formal model to the empirical data? Are there others? As always, the main issue with formal models is determining the degree to which they just match surface features of empirical data versus providing mechanistic insights, so some discussion of the level of fit necessary for strong inference would be useful. 

      Thank you for recommending additional clarity on our choice of evaluation metrics. RMSE is a very standard measure (for example, it’s the error metric used in fitting standard linear regression!). On the other hand, it captures absolute rather than relative errors. Correlation-based measures (e.g., r and r<sup>2</sup>-type measures) provide a measure of relative distance between predictive measures. In our manuscript we reported both RMSE and R². In the revised manuscript, we have now:

      (1) Added a paragraph in the main text explaining that RMSE captures the absolute error in the same units as looking time, whereas r² reflects the relative proportion of variance explained by the model: 

      “RANCH predictions qualitatively matched habituation and dishabituation in both infants and adults. To quantitatively evaluate these predictions, we fit a linear model (adjusting model‐generated samples by an intercept and scaling factor) and then assessed two complementary metrics. First, the root mean squared error (RMSE) captures the absolute error in the same units as looking time. Second, the coefficient of determination ($R^2$) measures the relative variation in looking time that is explained by the scaled model predictions. Since each metric relies on different assumptions and highlights distinct aspects of predictive accuracy, they together provide a more robust assessment of model performance. We minimized overfitting by employing cross‐validation—using a split‐half design for infant data and ten‐fold for adult data—to compute both RMSE and $R^2$ on held‐out samples.”

      (2) We updated Table 1 to include both RMSE and R² for each model variant and linking hypothesis. We now reported both RMSE and R² across the two experiments. 

      We hope these revisions address your concerns by offering a more comprehensive and transparent assessment of our model’s predictive accuracy.

      Regarding your final question, the desired level of fit for insight, our view is that – at least in theory development – measures of fit should always be compared between alternatives (rather than striving for some absolute level of prediction). We have attempted to do this by comparing fit within- and across-samples and via various ablation studies. We now make this point explicit in the General Discussion:

      More generally, while there is no single threshold for what constitutes a “good” model fit, the strength of our approach lies in the relative comparisons across model variants, linking hypotheses, and ablation studies. In this way, we treat model fit not as an absolute benchmark, but as an empirical tool to adjudicate among alternative explanations and assess the mechanistic plausibility of the model’s components.

      The difference in model predictions for identity vs number relative to the empirical data seems important but isn't given sufficient weight in terms of evaluating whether the model is or is not providing a good explanation of infant behavior. What would falsification look like in this context? 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s observation regarding the discrepancy between model predictions and the empirical data for identity vs.~number violations. We were also very interested in this particular deviation and we discuss it in detail in the General Discussion, noting that RANCH is currently a purely perceptual model, whereas infants’ behavior on number violations may reflect additional conceptual factors. Moreover, because this analysis reflects an out-of-sample prediction, we emphasize the overall match between RANCH and the data (see our global fit metrics) rather than focusing on a single data point. Infant looking time data also exhibit considerable noise, so we caution against over-interpreting small discrepancies in any one condition. In principle, a more thorough “falsification” would involve systematically testing whether larger deviations persist across multiple studies or stimulus sets, which is beyond the scope of the current work. 

      For the novel image similarity analysis, it is difficult to determine whether any differences are due to differences in the way the CNN encodes images vs in the habituation model itself - there are perhaps too many free parameters to pinpoint the nature of any disparities. Would there be another way to test the model without the CNN introducing additional unknowns? 

      Thank you for raising this concern. In our framework, the CNN and the habituation model operate jointly to generate predictions, so it can be challenging to parse out whether any mismatches arise specifically from one component or the other. However, we are not worried that the specifics of our CNN procedure introduces free parameters because:

      (1) The  CNN introduces no additional free parameters in our analyses, because it is a pre‐trained model not fitted to our data. 

      (2) We tested multiple CNN embeddings and observed similar outcomes, indicating that the details of the CNN are unlikely to be driving performance (Figure 12).

      Moreover, the key contribution of our second study is precisely that the model can generalize to entirely novel stimuli without any parameter adjustments. By combining a stable, off‐the‐shelf CNN with our habituation model, we can make out‐of‐sample predictions—an achievement that, to our knowledge, no previous habituation model has demonstrated.

      Related to that, the model contains lots of parts - the CNN, the EIG approach, and the parameters, all of which may or may not match how the infant's brain operates. EIG is systematically compared to two other algorithms, with KL working similarly - does this then imply we can't tell the difference between an explanation based on those two mechanisms? Are there situations in which they would make distinct predictions where they could be pulled apart? Also in this section, there doesn't appear to be any formal testing of the fits, so it is hard to determine whether this is a meaningful difference. However, other parts of the model don't seem to be systematically varied, so it isn't always clear what the precise question addressed in the manuscript is (e.g. is it about the algorithm controlling learning? or just that this model in general when fitted in a certain way resembles the empirical data?) 

      Thank you for highlighting these points about the model’s components and the comparison of EIG- vs. KL-based mechanisms. Regarding the linking hypotheses (EIG, KL, and surprisal), our primary goal was to assess whether rational exploration via noisy perceptual sampling could account for habituation and dishabituation phenomena in a stimulus-computable fashion. Although RANCH contains multiple elements—including the CNN for perceptual embedding, the learning model, and the action policy (EIG or KL)—we did systematically vary the “linking hypothesis” (i.e., whether sampling is driven by EIG, KL, or surprisal). We found that EIG and KL gave very similar fits, while surprisal systematically underperformed.

      We agree that future experiments could be designed to produce diverging predictions between EIG and KL, but examining these subtle differences is beyond the scope of our current work. Here, we sought to establish that a rational model of habituation, driven by noisy perceptual sampling, can deliver strong quantitative predictions—even for out-of-sample stimuli—rather than to fully disentangle forward- vs. backward-looking information metrics.

      We disagree, however, that we did not evaluate or formally compare other aspects of the model. In Table 1 we report ablation studies of different aspects of the model architecture (e.g., removal of learning and noise components). Further, the RMSE and R² values reported in Table 1 and Section 4.2.3 can be treated as out-of-sample estimates of performance and used for direct comparison (because Table 1 uses cross-validation and Section 4.2.3 reports out of sample predictions). 

      Perhaps the reviewer is interested in statistical hypothesis tests, but we do not believe these are appropriate here. Cross-validation provides a metric of out-of-sample generalization and model selection based on the resulting numerical estimates. Significance testing is not typically recommended, except in a limited subset of cases (see e.g. Vanwinckelen & Blokeel, 2012 and Raschka, 2018).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      "We treat the number of samples for each stimulus as being linearly related to looking time duration." Looking times were not log transformed? 

      Thank you for your question. The assumption of a linear relationship between the model’s predicted number of samples and looking time duration is intended as a measurement transformation, not a strict assumption about the underlying distribution of looking times. This linear mapping is used simply to establish a direct proportionality between model-generated samples and observed looking durations.

      However, in our statistical analyses, we do log-transform the empirical looking times to account for skewness and stabilize variance. This transformation is standard practice when analyzing infant looking time data but is independent of how we map model predictions to observed times. Since there is no a priori reason to assume that the number of model samples must relate to looking time in a strictly log-linear way, we retained a simple linear mapping while still applying a log transformation in our analytic models where appropriate.

      It would be nice to have figures showing the results of the grid search over the parameter values. For example, a heatmap with sigma on x and eta on y, and goodness of fit indicated by colour, would show the quality of the model fit as a function of the parameters' values, but also if the parameters estimates are correlated (they shouldn't be). 

      Thank you for the suggestion. We agree that visualizing the grid search results can provide a clearer picture of how different parameter values affect model fit. In the supplementary materials, we already present analyses where we systematically search over one parameter at a time to find the best-fitting values.

      We also explored alternative visualizations, including heatmaps where sigma and eta are mapped on the x and y axes, with goodness-of-fit indicated by color. However, we found that the goodness of fit was very similar across parameter settings, making the heatmaps difficult to interpret due to minimal variation in color. This lack of variation in fit reflects the observation that our model predictions are robust to changes in parameter settings, which allows us to report strong out of sample predictions in Section 4. Instead, we opted to use histograms to illustrate general trends, which provide a clearer and more interpretable summary of the model fit across different parameter settings. Please see the heatmaps below, if you are interested. 

      Author response image 1.

      Model fit (measured by RMSE) across a grid of prior values for Alpha, Beta, and V shows minimal variation. This indicates that the model’s performance is robust to changes in prior assumptions.

      Regarding section 5.4, paragraph 2: It might be interesting to notice that a potential way to decorrelate these factors is to look at finer timescales (see Poli et al., 2024, Trends in Cognitive Sciences), which the current combination of neural nets and Bayesian inference could potentially be adapted to do. 

      Thank you for this insightful suggestion. We agree that examining finer timescales of looking behavior could provide valuable insights into the dynamics of attention and learning. In response, we have incorporated language in Section 5.4 to highlight this as a potential future direction: 

      Another promising direction is to explore RANCH’s applicability to finer timescales of looking behavior, enabling a more detailed examination of within-trial fluctuations in attention. Recent work suggests that analyzing moment-by-moment dynamics can help disentangle distinct learning mechanisms \autocite{poli2024individual}.Since RANCH models decision-making at the level of individual perceptual samples, it is well-suited to capture these fine-grained attentional shifts.

      Previous work integrating neural networks with Bayesian (like) models could be better acknowledged: Blakeman, S., & Mareschal, D. (2022). Selective particle attention: Rapidly and flexibly selecting features for deep reinforcement learning. Neural Networks, 150, 408-421. 

      Thank you for this feedback. We have now incorporated this citation into our discussion section: 

      RANCH integrates structured perceptual representations with Bayesian inference, allowing for stimulus-computable predictions of looking behavior and interpretable parameters at the same time. This integrated approach has been used to study selective attention \autocite{blakeman2022selective}.

      Unless I missed it, I could not find an OSF repository (although the authors refer to an OSF repository for a previous study that has not been included). In general, sharing the code would greatly help with reproducibility. 

      Thanks for this comment. We apologize that – although all of our code and data were available through github, we did not provide links in the manuscript. We have now added this at the end of the introduction section. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Page 7 "infants clearly dishabituated on trials with longer exposures" - what are these stats comparing? Novel presentation to last familiar? 

      Thank you for pointing out this slightly confusing passage. The statistics reported are comparing looking time in looking time between the novel and familiar test trials after longer exposures. We have now added the following language: 

      Infants clearly dishabituated on trials with longer exposures, looking longer at the novel stimulus than the familiar stimulus after long exposure.

      Order effects were covaried in the model - does the RANCH model predict similar order effects to those observed in the empirical data, ie can it model more generic changes in attention as well as the stimulus-specific ones? 

      Thank you for this question. If we understand correctly, you are asking whether RANCH can capture order effects over the course of the experiment, such as general decreases in attention across blocks. Currently, RANCH does not model these block-level effects—it is designed to predict stimulus-driven looking behavior rather than more general attentional changes that occur over time such as fatigue. In our empirical analysis, block number was included as a covariate to account for these effects statistically, but RANCH itself does not have a mechanism to model block-to-block attentional drift independent of stimulus properties. This is an interesting direction for future work, where a model could integrate global attentional dynamics alongside stimulus-specific learning. To address this, we have added a sentence in the General Discussion saying:

      Similarly, RANCH does not capture more global attention dynamics, such as block-to-block attentional drift independent of stimulus properties.

      "We then computed the root mean squared error (RMSE) between the scaled model results and the looking time data." Why is this the most appropriate approach to considering model fit? Would be useful to have a brief explanation. 

      Thank you for pointing this out. We believe that we have now addressed this issue in Response to Comment #2 from Reviewer 1. 

      The title of subsection 3.3 made me think that you would be comparing RANCH to alternate hypotheses or models but this seems to be a comparison of ways of fitting parameters within RANCH - I think worth explaining that. 

      We have now added a sentence in the subsection to make the content of the comparison more explicit: 

      Here we evaluated different ways of specifying RANCH's decision-making mechanism (i.e., different "linking hypotheses" within RANCH).

      3.5 would be useful to have some statistics here - does performance significantly improve? 

      As discussed above, we systematically compared model variants using cross-validated RMSE and R² values, which provide quantitative evidence of improved performance. While these differences are substantial, we do not report statistical hypothesis tests, as significance testing is not typically appropriate for model comparison based on cross-validation (see Vanwinckelen & Blockeel, 2012; Raschka, 2018). Instead, we rely on out-of-sample predictive performance as a principled basis for evaluating model variants.

      It would be very helpful to have a formal comparison of RANCH and other models - this seems to be largely descriptive at the moment (3.6).

      We believe that we have now addressed this issue in our response to the first comment.

      Does individual infant data show any nonlinearities? Sometimes the position of the peak look is very heterogenous and so overall there appears to be no increase but on an individual level there is. 

      Thank you for your question. Given our experimental design, each exposure duration appears in separate blocks rather than in a continuous sequence for each infant. Because of this, the concept of an individual-level nonlinear trajectory over exposure durations does not directly apply. Instead, each infant contributes looking time data to multiple distinct conditions, rather than following a single increasing-exposure sequence. Any observed nonlinear trend across exposure durations would therefore be a group-level effect rather than a within-subject pattern.

      In 4.1, why 8 or 9 exposures rather than a fixed number? 

      We used slightly variable exposure durations to reduce the risk that infants develop fixed expectations about when a novel stimulus will appear. We have now clarified this point in the text.

      Why do results differ for the model vs empirical data for identity? Is this to do with semantic processing in infants that isn't embedded in the model? 

      Thank you for your comment. The discrepancy between the model and empirical data for identity violations is related to the discrepancy we discussed for number violations in the General Discussion. As noted there, RANCH relies on perceptual similarity derived from CNN embeddings, which may not fully capture distinctions that infants make.

      The model suggests the learner’s prior on noise is higher in infants than adults, so produces potentially mechanistic insights. 

      We agree! One of the key strengths of RANCH is its ability to provide mechanistic insights through interpretable parameters. The finding that infants have a higher prior on perceptual noise than adults aligns with previous research suggesting that early visual processing in infants is more variable and less precise.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      LRRK2 protein is familially linked to Parkinson's disease by the presence of several gene variants that all confer a gain-of-function effect on LRRK2 kinase activity. 

      The authors examine the effects of BDNF stimulation in immortalized neuron-like cells, cultured mouse primary neurons, hIPSC-derived neurons, and synaptosome preparations from the brain. They examine an LRRK2 regulatory phosphorylation residue, LRRK2 binding relationships, and measures of synaptic structure and function. 

      Strengths: 

      The study addresses an important research question: how does a PD-linked protein interact with other proteins, and contribute to responses to a well-characterized neuronal signalling pathway involved in the regulation of synaptic function and cell health? 

      They employ a range of good models and techniques to fairly convincingly demonstrate that BDNF stimulation alters LRRK2 phosphorylation and binding to many proteins. Some effects of BDNF stimulation appear impaired in (some of the) LRRK2 knock-out scenarios (but not all). A phosphoproteomic analysis of PD mutant Knock-in mouse brain synaptosomes is included. 

      We thank this Reviewer for pointing out the strengths of our work. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The data sets are disjointed, conclusions are sweeping, and not always in line with what the data is showing. Validation of 'omics' data is very light. Some inconsistencies with the major conclusions are ignored. Several of the assays employed (western blotting especially) are likely underpowered, findings key to their interpretation are addressed in only one or other of the several models employed, and supporting observations are lacking. 

      We appreciate the Reviewer’s overall evaluaVon. In this revised version, we have provided several novel results that strengthen the omics data and the mechanisVc experiments and make the conclusions in line with the data.

      As examples to aid reader interpretation: (a) pS935 LRRK2 seems to go up at 5 minutes but goes down below pre-stimulation levels after (at times when BDNF-induced phosphorylation of other known targets remains very high). This is ignored in favour of discussion/investigation of initial increases, and the fact that BDNF does many things (which might indirectly contribute to initial but unsustained changes to pLRRK2) is not addressed.  

      We thank the Reviewer for raising this important point, which we agree deserves additional investigation. Although phosphorylation does decrease below pre-stimulation levels, a reduction is also observed for ERK/AKT upon sustained exposure to BDNF in our experimental paradigm (figure 1F-G). This phenomenon is well known in response to a number of extracellular stimuli and can be explained by mechanisms related to cellular negative feedback regulation, receptor desensitization (e.g. phosphorylation or internalization), or cellular adaptation. The effect on pSer935, however, is peculiar as phosphorylation goes below the unstimulated level, as pointed by the reviewer. In contrast to ERK and AKT whose phosphorylation is almost absent under unstimulated conditions (Figure 1F-G), the stoichiometry of Ser935 phosphorylation under unstimulated conditions is high. This observation is consistent with MS determination of relative abundance of pSer935 (e.g. in whole brain LRRK2 is nearly 100% phosphorylated at Ser935, see Nirujogi et al., Biochem J 2021).  Thus we hypothesized that the modest increase in phosphorylation driven by BDNF likely reflects a saturation or ceiling effect, indicating that the phosphorylation level is already near its maximum under resting conditions. Prolonged BDNF stimulation would bring phosphorylation down below pre-stimulation levels, through negative feedback mechanisms (e.g. phosphatase activity) explained above. To test this hypothesis, we conducted an experiment in conditions where LRRK2 is pretreated for 90 minutes with MLi-2 inhibitor, to reduce basal phosphorylation of S935. After MLi-2 washout, we stimulated with BDNF at different time points. We used GFP-LRRK2 stable lines for this experiment, since the ceiling effect was particularly evident (Figure S1A) and this model has been used for the interactomic study. As shown below (and incorporated in Fig. S1B in the manuscript), LRRK2 responds robustly to BDNF stimulation both in terms of pSer935 and pRABs. Phosphorylation peaks at 5-15 mins, while it decreases to unstimulated levels at 60 and 180 minutes. Notably, while the peak of pSer935 at 5-15 mins is similar to the untreated condition (supporting that Ser935 is nearly saturated in unstimulated conditions), the phosphorylation of RABs during this time period exceeds unstimulated levels. These findings support the notion that, under basal conditions, RAB phosphorylation is far from saturation. The antibodies used to detect RAB phosphorylation are the following: RAB10 Abcam # ab230261 e RAB8 (pan RABs) Abcam # ab230260.

      Given the robust response of RAB10 phosphorylation upon BDNF stimulation, we further investigated RAB10 phosphorylation during BDNF stimulation in naïve SH-SY5Y cells. We confirmed that the increase in pSer935 is coupled to increase in pT73-RAB10. Also in this case, RAB10 phosphorylation does not go below the unstimulated level, which aligns with the  low pRAB10 stoichiometry in brain (Nirujogi et al., Biochem J 2021). This experiment adds the novel and exciting finding that BDNF stimulation increases LRRK2 kinase activity (RAB phosphorylation) in neuronal cells. 

      Note that new supplemental figure 1 now includes: A) a comparison of LRRK2 pS935 and total protein levels before and after RA differentiation; B) differentiated GFP-LRRK2 SH-SY5Y (unstimulated, BDNF, MLi-2, BDNF+MLi-2); C) the kinetic of BDNF response in differentiated GFP-LRRK2 SH-SY5Y.

      (b) Drebrin coIP itself looks like a very strong result, as does the increase after BDNF, but this was only demonstrated with a GFP over-expression construct despite several mouse and neuron models being employed elsewhere and available for copIP of endogenous LRRK2. Also, the coIP is only demonstrated in one direction. Similarly, the decrease in drebrin levels in mice is not assessed in the other model systems, coIP wasn't done, and mRNA transcripts are not quantified (even though others were). Drebrin phosphorylation state is not examined.  

      We appreciate the Reviewer suggestions and provided additional experimental evidence supporting the functional relevance of LRRK2-drebrin interaction.

      (1) As suggested, we performed qPCR and observed that 1 month-old KO midbrain and cortex express lower levels of Dbn1 as compared to WT brains (Figure 5G). This result is in agreement with the western blot data (Figure 5H). 

      (2)To further validate the physiological relevance of LRRK2-drebrin interaction we performed two experiments:

      i) Western blots looking at pSer935 and pRab8 (pan Rab) in Dbn1 WT and knockout brains. As reported and quantified in Figure 2I, we observed a significant decrease in pSer935 and a trend decrease in pRab8 in Dbn1 KO brains. This finding supports the notion that Drebrin forms a complex with LRRK2 that is important for its activity, e.g. upon BDNF stimulation. 

      ii) Reverse co-immunoprecipitation of YFP-drebrin full-length, N-terminal domain (1-256 aa) and C-terminal domain (256-649 aa) (plasmids kindly received from Professor Phillip R. Gordon-Weeks, Worth et al., J Cell Biol, 2013) with Flag-LRRK2 co-expressed in HEK293T cells. As shown in supplementary Fig. S2C, we confirm that YFP-drebrin binds LRRK2, with the Nterminal region of drebrin appearing to be the major contributor to this interaction. This result is important as the N-terminal region contains the ADF-H (actin-depolymerising factor homology) domain and a coil-coil region known to directly bind actin (Shirao et al., J Neurochem 2017; Koganezawa et al., Mol Cell Neurosci. 2017). Interestingly, both full-length Drebrin and its truncated C-terminal construct cause the same morphological changes in Factin, indicating that Drebrin-induced morphological changes in F-actin are mediated by its N-terminal domains rather than its intrinsically disordered C-terminal region (Shirao et al., J Neurochem, 2017; Koganezawa et al., Mol Cell Neurosci. 2017). Given the role of LRRK2 in actin-cytoskeletal dynamics and its binding with multiple actin-related protein binding (Fig. 2 and Meixner et al., Mol Cell Proteomics. 2011; Parisiadou and Cai, Commun Integr Biol 2010), these results suggest the possibility that LRRK2 controls actin dynamics by competing with drebrin binding to actin and open new avenues for futures studies.

      (3) To address the request for examining drebrin phosphorylation state, we decided to perform another phophoproteomic experiment, leveraging a parallel analysis incorporated in our latest manuscript (Chen et al., Mol Theraphy 2025). In this experiment, we isolated total striatal proteins from WT and G2019S KI mice and enriched the phospho-peptides. Unlike the experiment presented in Fig. 7, phosphopeptides were enriched from total striatal lysates rather than synaptosomal fractions, and phosphorylation levels were normalized to the corresponding total protein abundance. This approach was intended to avoid bias toward synaptic proteins, allowing for the analysis of a broader pool of proteins derived from a heterogeneous ensemble of cell types (neurons, glia, endothelial cells, pericytes etc.). We were pleased to find that this new experiment confirmed drebrin S339 as a differentially phosphorylated site, with a 3.7 fold higher abundance in G2019S Lrrk2 KI mice. The fact that this experiment evidenced an increased phosphorylation stoichiometry in G2019S mice rather than a decreased is likely due to the normalization of each peptide by its corresponding total protein. Gene ontology analysis of differentially phosphorylated proteins using stringent term size (<200 genes) showed post-synaptic spines and presynaptic active zones as enriched categories (Fig. 3F). A SynGO analysis confirms both pre and postsynaptic categories, with high significance for terms related to postsynaptic cytoskeleton (Fig. 3G). As pointed, this is particularly interesting as the starting material was whole striatal tissue – not synaptosomes as previously – indicating that most significant phosphorylation differences occur in synaptic compartments. This once again reinforces our hypothesis that LRRK2 has a prominent role in the synapse. Overall, we confirmed with an independent phosphoproteomic analysis that LRRK2 kinase activity influences the phosphorylation state of proteins related to synaptic function, particularly postsynaptic cytoskeleton. For clarity in data presentation, as mentioned by the Reviewers, we removed Figure 7 and incorporated this new analysis in figure 3, alongside the synaptic cluster analysis. 

      Altogether, three independent OMICs approaches – (i) experimental LRRK2 interactomics in neuronal cells, (ii) a literature-based LRRK2 synaptic/cytoskeletal interactor cluster, and (iii) a phospho-proteomic analysis of striatal proteins from G2019S KI mice (to model LRRK2 hyperactivity) – converge to synaptic actin-cytoskeleton as a key hub of LRRK2 neuronal function.

      (c) The large differences in the CRISPR KO cells in terms of BDNF responses are not seen in the primary neurons of KO mice, suggesting that other differences between the two might be responsible, rather than the lack of LRRK2 protein. 

      Considering that some variability is expected for these type of cultures and across different species, any difference in response magnitude and kinetics could be attributed to the levels of TrKB  and downstream components expressed by the two cell types. 

      We are confident that differentiated SH-SY5Y cells provide a reliable model for our study as we could translate the results obtained in SH-SY5Y cells in other models. However, to rule out the possibility that the more pronounced effect observed in SH-SY5Y KO cells as respect to Lrrk2 KO primary neurons was due to CRISPR off-target effect, we performed an off-target analysis. Specifically, we selected the first 8 putative off targets exhibiting a CDF (Cutting Frequency Determination) off-target-score >0.2. 

      As shown in supplemental file 1, sequence disruption was observed only in the LRRK2 ontarget site in LRRK2 KO SH-SY5Y cells, while the 8 off-target regions remained unchanged across the genotypes and relative to the reference sequence. 

      (d) No validation of hits in the G2019S mutant phosphoproteomics, and no other assays related to the rest of the paper/conclusions. Drebrin phosphorylation is different but unvalidated, or related to previous data sets beyond some discussion. The fact that LRRK2 binding occurs, and increases with BDNF stimulation, should be compared to its phosphorylation status and the effects of the G2019S mutation. 

      As illustrated in the response to point (b), we performed a new phosphoproteomics investigation – with total striatal lysates instead of striatal synaptosomes and normalization phospho-peptides over total proteins – and found that S339 phosphorylation increases when LRRK2 kinase activity increases (G2019S). To address the request of validating drebrin phosphorylation, the main limitation is that there are no available antibodies against Ser339. While we tried phos-Tag gels in striatal lysates, we could not detect any reliable and specific signal with the same drebrin antibody used for western blot (Thermo Fisher Scientific: MA120377) due to technical limitations of the phosTag method. We are confident that phosphorylation at S339 has a physiological relevance, as it was identified 67 times across multiple proteomic discovery studies and they are placed among the most frequently phosphorylated sites in drebrin (https://www.phosphosite.org/proteinAction.action?id=2675&showAllSites=true).

      To infer a possible role of this phosphorylation, we looked at the predicted pathogenicity of using AlphaMissense (Cheng et al., Science 2023). included as supplementary figure (Fig. S3), aminoacid substitutions within this site are predicted not to be pathogenic, also due to the low confidence of the AlphaFold structure. 

      Ser339 in human drebrin is located just before the proline-rich region (PP domain) of the protein. This region is situated between the actin-binding domains and the C-terminal Homerbinding sequences and plays a role in protein-protein interactions and cytoskeletal regulation (Worth et al., J Cell Biol, 2013). Of interest, this region was previously shown to be the interaction site of adafin (ADFN), a protein involved in multiple cytoskeletal-related processes, including synapse formation and function by regulating puncta adherentia junctions, presynaptic differentiation, and cadherin complex assembly, which are essential for hippocampal excitatory synapses, spine formation, and learning and memory processes (Beaudoin, G. M., 3rd et al., J Neurosci, 2013). Of note, adafin is in the list of LRRK2 interacting proteins (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/intact/home), supporting a possible functional relevance of LRRK2-mediated drebrin phosphorylation in adafin-drebrin complex formation. This has been discussed in the discussion section.

      The aim of this MS analysis in G2019S KI mice – now included in figure 3 – was to further validate the crucial role of LRRK2 kinase activity in the context of synaptic regulation, rather than to discover and characterize novel substrates. Consequently, Figure 7 has been eliminated. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):  

      Taken as a whole, the data in the manuscript show that BDNF can regulate PD-associated kinase LRRK2 and that LRRK2 modifies the BDNF response. The chief strength is that the data provide a potential focal point for multiple observations across many labs. Since LRRK2 has emerged as a protein that is likely to be part of the pathology in both sporadic and LRRK2 PD, the findings will be of broad interest. At the same time, the data used to imply a causal throughline from BDNF to LRRK2 to synaptic function and actin cytoskeleton (as in the title) are mostly correlative and the presentation often extends beyond the data. This introduces unnecessary confusion. There are also many methodological details that are lacking or difficult to find. These issues can be addressed. 

      We appreciate the Reviewer’s positive feedback on our study. We also value the suggestion to present the data in a more streamlined and coherent way. In response, we have updated the title to better reflect our overall findings: “LRRK2 Regulates Synaptic Function through Modulation of Actin Cytoskeletal Dynamics.” Additionally, we have included several experiments that we believe enhance and unify the study.

      (1) The writing/interpretation gets ahead of the data in places and this was confusing. For example, the abstract highlights prior work showing that Ser935 LRRK2 phosphorylation changes LRRK2 localization, and Figure 1 shows that BDNF rapidly increases LRRK2 phosphorylation at this site. Subsequent figures highlight effects at synapses or with synaptic proteins. So is the assumption that LRRK2 is recruited to (or away from) synapses in response to BDNF? Figure 2H shows that LRRK2-drebrin interactions are enhanced in response to BDNF in retinoic acid-treated SH-SY5Y cells, but are synapses generated in these preps? How similar are these preps to the mouse and human cortical or mouse striatal neurons discussed in other parts of the paper (would it be anticipated that BDNF act similarly?) and how valid are SHSY5Y cells as a model for identifying synaptic proteins? Is drebrin localization to synapses (or its presence in synaptosomes) modified by BDNF treatment +/- LRRK2? Or do LRRK2 levels in synaptosomes change in response to BDNF? The presentation requires re-writing to stay within the constraints of the data or additional data should be added to more completely back up the logic. 

      We thank the Reviewer for the thorough suggestions and comments. We have extensively revised the text to accurately reflect our findings without overinterpreting. In particular, we agree with the Reviewer that differentiated SH-SY5Y cells are not  identical to primary mouse or human neurons; however both neuronal models respond to BDNF. Supporting our observations, it is known that SH-SY5Y cells respond to BDNF.  In fact, a common protocol for differentiating SH-SY5Y cells involve BDNF in combination with retinoic acid (Martin et al., Front Pharmacol, 2022; Kovalevich et al., Methods in mol bio, 2013). Additionally, it has been reported that SH-SY5Y cells can form functional synapses (Martin et al., Front Pharmacol, 2022). While we are aware that BDNF, drebrin or LRRK2 can also affect non-synaptic pathways, we focused on synapses when moved to mouse models since: (i) MS and phosphoMS identified several cytoskeletal proteins enriched at the synapse, (ii) we and others have previously reported a role for LRRK2 in governing synaptic and cytoskeletal related processes; (iii) the synapse is a critical site that becomes dysfunctional in the early  stages of PD. We have now clarified and adjusted the text as needed. We have also performed additional experiments to address the Reviewer’s concern:

      (1) “Is the assumption that LRRK2 is recruited to (or away from) synapses in response to BDNF”? This is a very important point. There is consensus in the field that detecting endogenous LRRK2 in brain slices or in primary neurons via immunofluorescence is very challenging with the commercially available  antibodies (Fernandez et al., J Parkinsons Dis, 2022). We established a method in our previous studies to detect LRRK2 biochemically in synaptosomes (Cirnaru et al., Front Mol Neurosci, 2014; Belluzzi et al., Mol Neurodegener., 2016). While these data indicate LRRK2 is present in the synaptic compartments, it would be quite challenging to apply this method to the present study. In fact, applying acute BDNF stimulation in vivo and then isolate synaptosomes is a complex experiment beyond the timeframe of the revision due to the need of mouse ethical approvals. However, this is definitely an intriguing angle to explore in the future.

      (2)“Is drebrin localization to synapses (or its presence in synaptosomes) modified by BDNF treatment +/- LRRK2?” To try and address this question, we adapted a previously published assay to measure drebrin exodus from dendritic spines. During calcium entry and LTP, drebrin exits dendritic spines and accumulates in the dendritic shafts and cell body (Koganezawa et al., 2017). This facilitates the reorganization of the actin cytoskeleton (Shirao et al., 2017). Given the known role of drebrin and its interaction with LRRK2, we hypothesized that LRRK2 loss might affect drebrin relocalization during spine maturation.

      To test this, we treated DIV14 primary cortical neurons from Lrrk2 WT and KO mice with BDNF for 5, 15, and 24 hours, then performed confocal imaging of drebrin localization (Author response image 1). Neurons were transfected at DIV4 with GFP (cell filler) and PSD95 (dendritic spines) for visualization, and endogenous drebrin was stained with an anti-drebrin antibody. We then measured drebrin's overlap with PSD95-positive puncta to track its localization at the spine.

      In Lrrk2 WT neurons, drebrin relocalized from spines after BDNF stimulation, peaking at 15 minutes and showing higher co-localization with PSD95 at 24 hours, indicating the spine remodeling occurred. In contrast, Lrrk2 KO neurons showed no drebrin exodus. These findings support the notion that LRRK2's interaction with drebrin is important for spine remodeling via BDNF. However, additional experiments with larger sample sizes are needed, which were not feasible within the revision timeframe (here n=2 experiments with independent neuronal preparations, n=4-7 neurons analyzed per experiment). Thus, we included the relevant figure as Author response image 1 but chose not to add it in the manuscript (figure 3).

      Author response image 1.

      Lrrk2 affects drebrin exodus from dendritic spines. After the exposure to BDNF for different times (5 minutes, 15 minutes and 24 hours), primary neurons from Lrrk2 WT and KO mice have been transfected with GFP and PSD95 and stained for endogenous drebrin at DIV4. The amount of drebrin localizing in dentritic spines outlined by PSD95 has been assessed at DIV14. The graph shows a pronounced decrease in drebrin content in WT neurons during short time treatments and an increase after 24 hours. KO neurons present no evident variations in drebrin localization upon BDNF stimulation. Scale bar: 4 μm.<br />

      (2) The experiments make use of multiple different kinds of preps. This makes it difficult at times to follow and interpret some of the experiments, and it would be of great benefit to more assertively insert "mouse" or "human" and cell type (cortical, glutamatergic, striatal, gabaergic) etc. 

      We thank the Reviewer for pointing this out. We have now more clearly specified the cell type and species identity throughout the text to improve clarity and interpretation.

      (3) Although BDNF induces quantitatively lower levels of ERK or Akt phosphorylation in LRRK2KO preps based on the graphs (Figure 4B, D), the western blot data in Figure 4C make clear that BDNF does not need LRRK2 to mediate either ERK or Akt activation in mouse cortical neurons and in 4A, ERK in SH-SY5Y cells. The presentation of the data in the results (and echoed in the discussion) writes of a "remarkably weaker response". The data in the blots demand more nuance. It seems that LRRK2 may potentiate a response to BDNF that in neurons is independent of LRRK2 kinase activity (as noted). This is more of a point of interpretation, but the words do not match the images.  

      We thank the Reviewer for pointing this out. We have rephrased our data  presentation to better convey  our findings. We were not surprised to find that loss of LRRK2 causes only a reduction of ERK and AKT activation upon BDNF rather than a complete loss. This is because these pathways are complex and redundant and are activated by a number of cellular effectors. The fact that LRRK2 is one among many players whose function can be compensated by other signaling molecules is also supported by the phenotype of Lrrk2 KO mice that is measurable at 1 month but disappears with adulthood (4 and 18 months) (figure 5).

      Moreover, we removed the sentence “Of note, 90 mins of Lrrk2 inhibition (MLi-2) prior to BDNF stimulation did not prevent phosphorylation of Akt and Erk1/2, suggesting that LRRK2 participates in BDNF-induced phosphorylation of Akt and Erk1/2 independently from its kinase activity but dependently from its ability to be phosphorylated at Ser935 (Fig. 4C-D and Fig. 1B-C)” since the MLi-2 treatment prior to BDNF stimulation was not quantified and our new data point to an involvement of LRRK2 kinase activity upon BDNF stimulation.

      (4) Figure 4F/G shows an increase in PSD95 puncta per unit length in response to BDNF in mouse cortical neurons. The data do not show spine induction/dendritic spine density/or spine morphogenesis as suggested in the accompanying text (page 8). Since the neurons are filled/express gfp, spine density could be added or spines having PSD95 puncta. However, the data as reported would be expected to reflect spine and shaft PSDs and could also include some nonsynaptic sites. 

      The Reviewer is right. We have rephrased the text to reflect an increase in postsynaptic density (PSD) sites, which may include both spine and shaft PSDs, as well as potential nonsynaptic sites.

      (5) Experimental details are missing that are needed to fully interpret the data. There are no electron microscopy methods outside of the figure legend. And for this and most other microscopy-based data, there are few to no descriptions of what cells/sites were sampled, how many sites were sampled, and how regions/cells were chosen. For some experiments (like Figure 5D), some detail is provided in the legend (20 segments from each mouse), but it is not clear how many neurons this represents, where in the striatum these neurons reside, etc. For confocal z-stacks, how thick are the optical sections and how thick is the stack? The methods suggest that data were analyzed as collapsed projections, but they cite Imaris, which usually uses volumes, so this is confusing. The guide (sgRNA) sequences that were used should be included. There is no mention of sex as a biological variable. 

      We thank the Reviewer for pointing out this missing information. We have now included:

      (1) EM methods (page 24)

      (2) Methods for ICC and confocal microscopy now incorporates the Z-stack thickness (0.5 μm x 6 = 3 μm) on page 23.

      (3) Methods for Golgi-Cox staining now incorporates the Z-stack thickness and number of neurons and segments per neuron analyzed. 

      (4) The sex of mice is mentioned in the material and methods (page 17): “Approximately equal numbers of males and females were used for every experiment”.

      (6) For Figures 1F, G, and E, how many experimental replicates are represented by blots that are shown? Graphs/statistics could be added to the supplement. For 1C and 1I, the ANOVA p-value should be added in the legend (in addition to the post hoc value provided). 

      The blots relative to figure 1F,G and E are representative of several blots (at least n=5). The same redouts are part of figure 4 where quantifications are provided. We added the ANOVA p-value in the legend for figure 1C, 1I and 1K.

      (7) Why choose 15 minutes of BDNF exposure for the mass spec experiments when the kinetics in Figure 1 show a peak at 5 mins?  

      This is an important point. We repeated the experiment in GFP-LRRK2 SH-SY5Y cells (figure S1C) and included the 15 min time point. In addition to confirming that pSer935 increases similarly at 5 and 15 minutes, we also observed an increase in RAB phosphorylation at these time points. As mentioned in our response to Reviewer’s 1, we pretreated with MLi-2 for 90 minutes in this experiment to reduce the high basal phosphorylation stoichiometry of pSer935. 

      (8) The schematic in Figure 6A suggests that iPSCs were plated, differentiated, and cultured until about day 70 when they were used for recordings. But the methods suggest they were differentiated and then cryopreserved at day 30, and then replated and cultured for 40 more days. Please clarify if day 70 reflects time after re-plating (30+70) or total time in culture (70). If the latter, please add some notes about re-differentiation, etc. 

      We thank the reviewer for providing further clarity on the iPSC methodology. In the submitted manuscript 70DIV represents the total time in vitro and the process involved a cryostorage event at 30DIV, with a thaw of the cells and a further 40 days of maturation before measurement.  We have adjusted the methods in both the text and figure (new schematic) to clarify this.  The cryopreservation step has been used in other iPSC methods to great effect (Drummond et al., Front Cell Dev Biol, 2020). Due to the complexity and length of the iPSC neuronal differentiation process, cryopreservation represents a useful method with which to shorten and enhance the ability to repeat experiments and reduce considerable variation between differentiations. User defined differences in culture conditions for each batch of neurons thawed can usefully be treated as a new and separate N compared to the next batch of neurons.

      (9) When Figures 6B and 6C are compared it appears that mEPSC frequency may increase earlier in the LRRK2KO preps than in the WT preps since the values appear to be similar to WT + BDNF. In this light, BDNF treatment may have reached a ceiling in the LRRK2KO neurons.

      We thank the reviewer for his/her comment and observations about the ceiling effects. It is indeed possible that the loss of LRRK2 and the application of BDNF could cause the same elevation in synaptic neurotransmission. In such a situation, the increased activity as a result of BDNF treatment would be masked by the increased activity  observed as a result of LRRK2 KO. To better visualize the difference between WT and KO cultures and the possible ceiling effect, we merged the data in one single graph.  

      (10) Schematic data in Figures 5A and C and Figures 5B and E are too small to read/see the data. 

      We thank the Reviewer for this suggestion. We have now enlarged figure 5A and moved the graph of figure 5D in supplemental figure S5, since this analysis of spine morphology is secondary to the one shown in figure 5C.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Please forgive any redundancy in the comments, I wanted to provide the authors with as much information as I had to explain my opinion. 

      Primary mouse cortical neurons at div14, 20% transient increase in S935 pLRRK2 5min after BDNF, which then declines by 30 minutes (below pre-stim levels, and maybe LRRK2 protein levels do also). 

      In differentiated SHSY5Y cells there is a large expected increase in pERK and pAKT that is sustained way above pre-stim for 60 minutes. There is a 50% initial increase in pLRRK2 (but the blot is not very clear and no double band in these cells), which then looks like reduced well below pre-stim by 30 & 60 minutes. 

      We thank the Reviewer for bring up this important point. We have extensively addressed this issue in the public review rebuttal. In essence, the phosphorylation of Ser935 is near saturation under unstimulated conditions, as evidenced by its high basal stoichiometry, whereas Rab phosphorylation is far from saturation, showing an increase upon BDNF stimulation before returning to baseline levels. This distinction highlights that while pSer935 exhibits a ceiling effect due to its near-maximal phosphorylation at rest, pRab responds dynamically to BDNF, indicating low basal phosphorylation and a significant capacity for increase. Figure 1 in the rebuttal summarizes the new data collected. 

      GFP-fused overexpressed LRRK2 coIPs with drebrin, and this is double following 15 min BDNF. Strong result.

      We thank the Reviewer.

      BDNF-induced pAKT signaling is greatly impaired, and pERK is somewhat impaired, in CRISPR LKO SHSY5Y cells. In mouse primaries, both AKT and Erk phosph is robustly increased and sustained over 60 minutes in WT and LKO. This might be initially less in LKO for Akt (hard to argue on a WB n of 3 with huge WT variability), regardless they are all roughly the same by 60 minutes and even look higher in LKO at 60. This seems like a big disconnect and suggests the impairment in the SHSy5Y cells might have more to do with the CRISPR process than the LRRK2. Were the cells sequenced for off-target CRISPR-induced modifications?  

      Following the Reviewer suggestion – and as discussed in the public review section - we performed an off-target analysis. Specifically, we selected the first 8 putative off targets exhibiting a CDF (Cutting Frequency Determination) off-target-score >0.2. As shown in supplemental file 1, sequence disruption was observed only in the LRRK2 on-target site in LRRK2 KO SH-SY5Y cells, while the 8 off-target regions remained unchanged across the genotypes and relative to the reference sequence.  

      No difference in the density of large PSD-95 puncta in dendrites of LKO primary relative to WT, and the small (10%) increase seen in WT after BDNF might be absent in LKO (it is not clear to me that this is absent in every culture rep, and the data is not highly convincing). This is also referred to as spinogenesis, which has not been quantified. Why not is confusing as they did use a GFP fill... 

      The Reviewer is right that spinogenesis is not the appropriate term for the process analyzed. We replaced “spinogenesis” with “morphological alternation of dendritic protrusions” or “synapse maturation” which is correlated with the number of PSD95 positive puncta (ElHusseini et al., Science, 2000) . 

      There is a difference in the percentage of dendritic protrusions classified as filopodia to more being classified as thin spines in LKO striatal neurons at 1 month, which is not seen at any other age, The WT filopodia seems to drop and thin spine percent rise to be similar to LKO at 4 months. This is taken as evidence for delayed maturation in LKO, but the data suggest the opposite. These authors previously published decreased spine and increased filopodia density at P15 in LKO. Now they show that filopodia density is decreased and thin spine density increased at one month. How is that shift from increased to decreased filopodia density in LKO (faster than WT from a larger initial point) evidence of impaired maturation? Again this seems accelerated? 

      We agree with the Reviewer that the initial interpretation was indeed confusing. To adhere closely to our data and avoid overinterpretation – as also suggested by Reviewer 2 – we revised  the text and moved figure 5D to supplementary materials. In essence, our data point out to alterations in the structural properties of dendritic protrusions in young KO mice, specifically a reduction in  their size (head width and neck height) and a decrease in postsynaptic density (PSD) length, as observed with TEM. These findings suggest that LRRK2 is involved in morphological processes during spine development. 

      Shank3 and PSD95 mRNA transcript levels were reduced in the LKO midbrain, only shank3 was reduced in the striatum and only PSD was reduced in the cortex. No changes to mRNA of BDNF-related transcripts. None of these mRNA changes protein-validated. Drebrin protein (where is drebrin mRNA?) levels are reduced in LKO at 1&4 but not clearly at 18 months (seems the most robust result but doesn't correlate with other measures, which here is basically a transient increase (1m) in thin striatal spines).  

      As illustrated before, we performed qPCR for Dbn1 and found that its expression is significantly reduced in the cortex and midbrain and non-significantly reduced in the striatum (1 months old mice, a different cohort as those used for the other analysis in figure 5).  

      24h BDNF increases the frequency of mEPSCs on hIPSC-derived cortical-like neurons, but not LKO, which is already high. There are no details of synapse number or anything for these cultures and compares 24h treatment. BDNF increases mEPSC frequency within minutes PMC3397209, and acute application while recording on cells may be much more informative (effects of BDNF directly, and no issues with cell-cell / culture variability). Calling mEPSC "spontaneous electrical activity" is not standard.  

      We thank the reviewer for this point. We provided information about synapse number (Bassoon/Homer colocalization) in supplementary figure S7. The lack of response of LRRK2 KO cultures in terms of mEPSC is likely due to increase release probability as the number of synapses does not change between the two genotypes. 

      The pattern of LRRK2 activation is very disconnected from that of BDNF signalling onto other kinases. Regarding pLRRK2, s935 is a non-autophosph site said to be required for LRRK2 enzymatic activity, that is mostly used in the field as a readout of successful LRRK2 inhibition, with some evidence that this site regulates LRRK2 subcellular localization (which might be more to do with whether or not it is p at 935 and therefor able to act as a kinase). 

      The authors imply BDNF is activating LRRK2, but really should have looked at other sites, such as the autophospho site 1292 and 'known' LRRK2 substrates like T73 pRab10 (or other e.g., pRab12) as evidence of LRRK2 activation. One can easily argue that the initial increase in pLRRK2 at this site is less consequential than the observation that BDNF silences LRRK2 activity based on p935 being sustained to being reduced after 5 minutes, and well below the prestim levels... not that BDNF activates LRRK2. 

      As described above, we have collected new data showing that BDNF stimulation increases LRRK2 kinase activity toward its physiological substrates Rab10 and Rab8 (using a panphospho-Rab antibody) (Figure 1 and Figure S1). Additionally, we have also extensively commented the ceiling effect of pS935.

      BDNF does a LOT. What happens to network activity in the neural cultures with BDNF application? Should go up immediately. Would increasing neural activity (i.e., through depolarization, forskolin, disinhibition, or something else without BDNF) give a similar 20% increase in pS935 LRRK2? Can this be additive, or occluded? This would have major implications for the conclusions that BDNF and pLRRK2 are tightly linked (as the title suggests).  

      These are very valuable observations; however, they fall outside the scope and timeframe of this study. We agree that future research should focus on gaining a deeper mechanistic understanding of how LRRK2 regulates synaptic activity, including vesicle release probability and postsynaptic spine maturation, independently of BDNF.

      Figures 1A & H "Western blot analysis revealed a rapid (5 mins) and transient increase of Ser935 phosphorylation after BDNF treatment (Fig. 1B and 1C). Of interest, BDNF failed to stimulate Ser935 phosphorylation when neurons were pretreated with the LRRK2 inhibitor MLi-2" . The first thing that stands out is that the pLRRK2 in WB is not very clear at all (although we appreciate it is 'a pig' to work with, I'd hope some replicates are clearer); besides that, the 20% increase only at 5min post-BDNF stimulation seems like a much less profound change than the reduction from base at 60 and more at 180 minutes (where total LRRK2 protein is also going down?). That the blot at 60 minutes in H is representative of a 30% reduction seems off... makes me wonder about the background subtraction in quantification (for this there is much less pLRRK2 and more total LRRK2 than at 0 or 5). LRRK2 (especially) and pLRRK2 seem very sketchy in H. Also, total LRRK2 appears to increase in the SHSY5Y cell not the neurons, and this seems even clearer in 2 H. 

      To better visualize the dynamics of pS935 variation relative to time=0, we presented the data as the difference between t=0 and t=x. It clearly shows that pSe935 goes below prestimulation levels, whereas pRab10 does not. The large difference in the initial stoichiometry of these two phosphorylation is extensively discussed above.

      That MLi2 eliminates pLRRK2 (and seems to reduce LRRK2 protein?) isn't surprising, but a 90min pretreatment with MLi-2 should be compared to MLi-2's vehicle alone (MLi-2 is notoriously insoluble and the majority of diluents have bioactive effects like changing activity)... especially if concluding increased pLRRK2 in response to BDNF is a crucial point (when comparing against effects on other protein modifications such as pAKT). This highlights a second point... the changes to pERK and pAKT are huge following BDNF (nothing to massive quantities), whereas pLRRK2 increases are 20-50% at best. This suggests a very modest effect of BDNF on LRRK in neurons, compared to the other kinases. I worry this might be less consequential than claimed. Change in S1 is also unlikely to be significant... 

      These comments have been thoroughly addressed in the previous responses. Regarding fig. S1, we added an additional experiment (Figure S1C) in GFP-LRRK2 cells showing robust activation of LRRK2 (pS935, pRabs) at the timepoint of MS (15 min).

      "As the yields of endogenous LRRK2 purification were insufficient for AP-MS/MS analysis, we generated polyclonal SH-SY5Y cells stably expressing GFP-LRRK2 wild-type or GFP control (Supplementary Fig. 1)" . I am concerned that much is being assumed regarding 'synaptic function' from SHSY5Y cells... also overexpressing GFP-LRRK2 and looking at its binding after BDNF isn't synaptic function.  

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. We would like to clarify that the interactors enriched upon BDNF stimulation predominantly fall into semantic categories related to the synapse and actin cytoskeleton. While this does not imply that these interactors are exclusively synaptic, it suggests that this tightly interconnected network likely plays a role in synaptic function. This interpretation is supported by several lines of evidence: (1) previous studies have demonstrated the relevance of this compartment to LRRK2 function; (2) our new phosphoproteomics data from striatal lysate highlight enrichment of synaptic categories; and (3) analysis of the latest GWAS gene list (134 genes) also indicates significant enrichment of synapse-related categories. Taken together, these findings justify further investigation into the role of LRRK2 in synaptic biology, as discussed extensively in the manuscript’s discussion section.

      Figure 2A isn't alluded to in text and supplemental table 1 isn't about LRRK2 binding, but mEPSCs. 

      We have added Figure 2A and added supplementary .xls table 1, which refers to the excel list of genes with modulated interaction upon BDNF (uploaded in the supplemental material).

      We added the extension .xls also for supplementary table 2 and 3. 

      Figure 2A is useless without some hits being named, and the donut plots in B add nothing beyond a statement that "35% of 'genes' (shouldn't this be proteins?) among the total 207 LRRK2 interactors were SynGO annotated" might as well [just] be the sentence in the text. 

      We have now included the names of the most significant hits, including cytoskeletal and translation-related proteins, as well as known LRRK2 interactors. We decided to retain the donut plots, as we believe they simplify data interpretation for the reader, reducing the need to jump back and forth between the figures and the text.

      Validation of drebrin binding in 2H is great... although only one of 8 named hits; could be increased to include some of the others. A concern alludes to my previous point... there is no appreciable LRRK2 in these cells until GFP-LRRK2 is overexpressed; is this addressed in the MS? Conclusions would be much stronger if bidirectional coIP of these binding candidates were shown with endogenous (GFP-ve) LRRK2 (primaries or hIPSCs, brain tissue?) 

      To address the Reviewer’s concerns to the best of our abilities, we have added a blot in Supplemental figure S1A showing how the expression levels of LRRK2 increase after RA differentiation. Moreover, we have included several new data further strengthening the functional link between LRRK2 and drebrin, including qPCR of Dbn1 in one-month old Lrrk2 KO brains, western blots of Lrrk2 and Rab in Dbn1 KO brains, and co-IP with drebrin N- and Cterm domains. 

      Figures 3 A-C are not informative beyond the text and D could be useful if proteins were annotated. 

      To avoid overcrowding, proteins were annotated in A and the same network structure reported for synaptic and actin-related interactors. 

      Figure 4. Is this now endogenous LRRK2 in the SHSY5Y cells? Again not much LRRK2 though, and no pLRRK shown. 

      We confirm that these are naïve SH-SY5Y cells differentiated with RA and LRRK2 is endogenous. We did not assess pS935 in this experiment, as the primary goal was to evaluate pAKT and pERK1/2 levels. To avoid signal saturation, we loaded less total protein (30 µg instead of the 80 µg typically required to detect pS935). pS935 levels were extensively assessed in Figure 1. This experimental detail has now been added in the material and methods section (page 18).

      In C (primary neurons) There is very little increase in pLRRK2 / LRRK2 at 5 mins, and any is much less profound a change than the reduction at 30 & 60 mins. I think this is interesting and may be a more substantial consequence of BDNF treatment than the small early increase. Any 5 min increase is gone by 30 and pLRRK2 is reduced after. This is a disconnect from the timing of all the other pProteins in this assay, yet pLRRK2 is supposed to be regulating the 'synaptic effects'? 

      The first part of the question has already been extensively addressed. Regarding the timing, one possibility is that LRRK2 is activated upstream of AKT and ERK1/2, a hypothesis supported by the reduced activation of AKT and ERK1/2 observed in LRRK2 KO cells, as discussed in the manuscript, and in MLi-2 treated cells (Author response image 2). Concerning the synaptic effects, it is well established that synaptic structural and functional plasticity occurs downstream of receptor activation and kinase signaling cascades. These changes can be mediated by both rapid mechanisms (e.g., mobilization of receptor-containing endosomes via the actin cytoskeleton) and slower processes involving gene transcription of immediate early genes (IEGs). Since structural and functional changes at the synapse generally manifest several hours after stimulation, we typically assessed synaptic activity and structure 24 hours post-stimulation.

      Akt Erk1&2 both go up rapidly after BDNF in WT, although Akt seems to come down with pLRRK2. If they aren't all the same Akt is probably the most different between LKO and WT but I am very concerned about an n=3 for wb, wb is semi-quantitative at best, and many more than three replicates should be assessed, especially if the argument is that the increases are quantitively different between WT v KO (huge variability in WT makes me think if this were done 10x it would all look same). Moreover, this isn't similar to the LKO primaries  "pulled pups" pooled presumably. 

      Despite some variability in the magnitude of the pAKT/pERK response in naïve SH-SY5Y cells, all three independent replicates consistently showed a reduced response in LRRK2 KO cells, yielding a highly significant result in the two-way ANOVA test. In contrast, the difference in response magnitude between WT and LRRK2 KO primary cultures was less pronounced, which justified repeating the experiments with n=9 replicates. We hope the Reviewer acknowledges the inherent variability often observed in western blot experiments, particularly when performed in a fully independent manner (different cultures and stimulations, independent blots).

      To further strengthen the conclusion that this effect is reproducible and dependent on LRRK2 kinase activity upstream of AKT and ERK, we probed the membranes in figure 1H with pAKT/total AKT and pERK/total ERK. All things considered and consistent with our hypothesis, MLi-2 significantly reduced BDNF-mediated AKT and ERK1/2 phosphorylation levels (Author response image 2). 

      Author response image 2.

      Western blot (same experiments as in figure 1) was performed using antibodies against phospho-Thr202/185 ERK1/2, total ERK1/2 and phospho-Ser473 AKT, total AKT protein levels Retinoic acid-differentiated SH-SY5Y cells stimulated with 100 ng/mL BDNF for 0, 5, 30, 60 mins. MLi-2 was used at 500 nM for 90 mins to inhibit LRRK2 kinase activity.

      G lack of KO effect seems to be skewed from one culture in the plot (grey). The scatter makes it hard to read, perhaps display the culture mean +/- BDNF with paired bars. The fact that one replicate may be changing things is suggested by the weirdly significant treatment effect and no genotype effect. Also, these are GFP-filled cells, the dendritic masks should be shown/explained, and I'm very surprised no one counted the number (or type?) of protrusions, especially as the text describes this assay (incorrectly) as spinogenesis... 

      As suggested by the Reviewer we have replotted the results as bar graphs. Regarding the number of protrusions, we initially counted the number of GFP+ puncta in the WT and did not find any difference (Author response image 3). Due to our imaging setup (confocal microscopy rather than super-resolution imaging and Imaris 3D reconstruction), we were unable to perform a fine morphometric analysis. However, this was not entirely unexpected, as BDNF is known to promote both the formation and maturation of dendritic spines. Therefore, we focused on quantifying PSD95+ puncta as a readout of mature postsynaptic compartments. While we acknowledge that we cannot definitively conclude that each PSD95+ punctum is synaptically connected to a presynaptic terminal, the data do indicate an increase in the number of PSD95+ structures following BDNF stimulation.

      Author response image 3.

      GFP+ puncta per unit of neurite length (µm) in DIV14 WT primary neurons untreated or upon 24 hour of BDNF treatment (100 ng/ml). No significant difference were observed (n=3).

      Figure 5. "Dendritic spine maturation is delayed in Lrrk2 knockout mice". The only significant change is at 1 month in KO which shows fewer filopodia and increased thin spines (50% vs wt). At 4 months the % of thin spines is increased to 60% in both... Filopodia also look like 4m in KO at 1m... How is that evidence for delayed maturation? If anything it suggests the KO spines are maturing faster. "the average neck height was 15% shorter and the average head width was 27% smaller, meaning that spines are smaller in Lrrk2 KO brains" - it seems odd to say this before saying that actually there are just MORE thin spines, the number of mature "mushroom' is same throughout, and the different percentage of thin comes from fewer filopodia. This central argument that maturation is delayed is not supported and could be backwards, at least according to this data. Similarly, the average PSD length is likely impacted by a preponderance of thin spines in KO... which if mature were fewer would make sense to say delayed KO maturation, but this isn't the case, it is the fewer filopodia (with no PSD) that change the numbers. See previous comments of the preceding manuscript. 

      We agree that thin spines, while often considered more immature, represent an intermediate stage in spine development. The data showing an increase in thin spines at 1 month in the KO mice, along with fewer filopodia, could suggest a faster stabilization of these spines, which might indeed be indicative of premature maturation rather than delayed maturation. This change in spine morphology may indicate that the dynamics of synaptic plasticity are affected. Regarding the PSD length, as the Reviewer pointed out, the increased presence of thin spines in KO might account for the observed changes in PSD measurements, as thin spines typically have smaller PSDs. This further reinforces the idea that the overall maturation process may be altered in the KO, but not necessarily delayed. 

      We rephrase the interpretation of these data, and moved figure 5D as supplemental figure S4.

      "To establish whether loss of Lrrk2 in young mice causes a reduction in dendritic spines size by influencing BDNF-TrkB expression" - there is no evidence of this.  

      We agree and reorganized the text, removing this sentence.  

      Shank and PSD95 mRNA changes being shown without protein adds very little. Why is drebrin RNA not shown? Also should be several housekeeping RNAs, not one (RPL27)? 

      We measured Dbn1 mRNA, which shows a significant reduction in midbrain and cortex. Moreover we have now normalized the transcript levels against the geometrical means of three housekeeping genes (RPL27, actin, and GAPDH) relative abundance.

      Drebrin levels being lower in KO seems to be the strongest result of the paper so far (shame no pLRRK2 or coIP of drebrin to back up the argument). DrebrinA KO mice have normal spines, what about haploinsufficient drebrin mice (LKO seem to have half derbrin, but only as youngsters?)  

      As extensively explained in the public review, we used Dbn1 KO mouse brains and were able to show reduced Lrrk2 activity.

      Figure 6. hIPSC-derived cortical neurons. The WT 'cortical' neurons have a very low mEPSC frequency at 0.2Hz relative to KO. Is this because they are more or less mature? What is the EPSC frequency of these cells at 30 and 90 days for comparison? Also, it is very very hard to infer anything about mEPSC frequency in the absence of estimates of cell number and more importantly synapse number. Furthermore, where are the details of cell measures such as capacitance, resistance, and quality control e.g., Ra? Table s1 seems redundant here, besides suggesting that the amplitude is higher in KO at base. 

      We agree that the developmental trajectory of iPSC-derived neurons is critical to accurately interpreting synaptic function and plasticity. In response, we have included additional data now presented in the supplementary figure S7 and summarize key findings below:

      At DIV50, both WT and LRRK2 KO neurons exhibit low basal mEPSC activity (~0.5 Hz) and no response to 24 h BDNF stimulation (50 ng/mL).

      At DIV70 WT neurons show very low basal activity (~0.2 Hz), which increases ~7.5-fold upon BDNF treatment (1.5 Hz; p < 0.001), and no change in synapse number. KO neurons display elevated basal activity (~1 Hz) similar to BDNF-treated WT neurons, with no further increase upon BDNF exposure (~1.3 Hz) and no change in synapse number.

      At DIV90, no significant effect of BDNF in both WT and KO, indicating a possible saturation of plastic responses. The lack of BDNF response at DIV90 may be due to endogenous BDNF production or culture-based saturation effects. While these factors warrant further investigation (e.g., ELISA, co-culture systems), they do not confound the key conclusions regarding the role of LRRK2 in synaptic development and plasticity:

      LRRK2 Enables BDNF-Responsive Synaptic Plasticity. In WT neurons, BDNF induces a significant increase in neurotransmitter release (mEPSC frequency) with no reduction in synapse number. This dissociation suggests BDNF promotes presynaptic functional potentiation. KO neurons fail to show changes in either synaptic function or structure in response to BDNF, indicating that LRRK2 is required for activity-dependent remodeling.

      LRRK2 Loss Accelerates Synaptic Maturation. At DIV70, KO neurons already exhibit high spontaneous synaptic activity equivalent to BDNF-stimulated WT neurons. This suggests that LRRK2 may act to suppress premature maturation and temporally gate BDNF responsiveness, aligning with the differences in maturation dynamics observed in KO mice (Figure 5).  

      As suggested by the reviewer we reported the measurement of resistance and capacitance for all DIV (Table 1, supplemental material). A reduction in capacitance was observed in WT neurons at DIV90, which may reflect changes in membrane complexity. However, this did not correlate with differences in synapse number and is unlikely to account for the observed differences in mEPSC frequency. To control for cell number between groups, cell count prior to plating was performed (80k/cm2; see also methods) on the non-dividing cells to keep cell number consistent.

      The presence of BDNF in WT seems to make them look like LKO, in the rest of the paper the suggestion is that the LKO lack a response to BDNF. Here it looks like it could be that BDNF signalling is saturated in LKO, or they are just very different at base and lack a response.

      Knowing which is important to the conclusions, and acute application (recording and BDNF wash-in) would be much more convincing.

      We agree with the Reviewer’s point that saturation of BDNF could influence the interpretation of the data if it were to occur. However, it is important to note that no BDNF exists in the media in base control and KO neuronal culture conditions. This is  different from other culture conditions and allows us to investigate the effects of  BDNF treatment. Thus, the increased mEPSC frequency observed in KO neurons compared to WT neurons is defined only by the deletion of the gene and not by other extrinsic factors which were kept consistent between the groups. The lack of response or change in mEPSC frequency in KO is proposed to be a compensatory mechanism due to the loss of LRRK2. Of Note, LRRK2 as a “synaptic break” has already been described (Beccano-Kelly et al., Hum Mol Gen, 2015). However, a comprehensive analysis of the underlying molecular mechanisms will  require future studies beyond  with the scope of this paper.

      "The LRRK2 kinase substrates Rabs are not present in the list of significant phosphopeptides, likely due to the low stoichiometry and/or abundance" Likely due to the fact mass spec does not get anywhere near everything. 

      We removed this sentence in light of the new phosphoproteomic analysis.

      Figure 7 is pretty stand-alone, and not validated in any way, hard to justify its inclusion?  

      As extensively explained we removed figure 7 and included the new phospho-MS as part of figure. 3

      Writing throughout shows a very selective and shallow use of the literature.  

      We extensively reviewed the citations.

      "while Lrrk1 transcript in this region is relatively stable during development" The authors reference a very old paper that barely shows any LRRK1 mRNA, and no protein. Others have shown that LRRK1 is essentially not present postnatally PMC2233633. This isn't even an argument the authors need to make. 

      We thank the reviewer and included this more appropriate citation. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Cyfip1 (Fig 3A) is part of the WAVE complex (page 13). 

      We thank the reviewer and specified it.

      The discussion could be more focused. 

      We extensively revised the discussion to keep it more focused.

      Note that we updated the GO ontology analyses to reflect the updated information present in g:Profiler.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors use anatomical tracing and slice physiology to investigate the integration of thalamic (ATN) and retrosplenial cortical (RSC) signals in the dorsal presubiculum (PrS). This work will be of interest to the field, as the postsubiculum is thought to be a key region for integrating internal head direction representations with external landmarks. The main result is that ATN and RSC inputs drive the same L3 PrS neurons, which exhibit superlinear summation to near-coincident inputs. Moreover, this activity can induce bursting in L4 PrS neurons, which can pass the signals LMN (perhaps gated by cholinergic input).

      Strengths:

      The slice physiology experiments are carefully done. The analyses are clear and convincing, and the figures and results are well-composed. Overall, these results will be a welcome addition to the field.

      We thank this reviewer for the positive comment on our work.

      Weaknesses:

      The conclusions about the circuit-level function of L3 PrS neurons sometimes outstrip the data, and their model of the integration of these inputs is unclear. I would recommend some revision of the introduction and discussion. I also had some minor comments about the experimental details and analysis.

      Specific major comments:

      (1) I found that the authors' claims sometimes outstrip their data, given that there were no in vivo recordings during behavior. For example, in the abstract, their results indicate "that layer 3 neurons can transmit a visually matched HD signal to medial entorhinal cortex", and in the conclusion they state "[...] cortical RSC projections that carry visual landmark information converge on layer 3 pyramidal cells of the dorsal presubiculum". However, they never measured the nature of the signals coming from ATN and RSC to L3 PrS (or signals sent to downstream regions). Their claim is somewhat reasonable with respect to ATN, where the majority of neurons encode HD, but neurons in RSC encode a vast array of spatial and non-spatial variables other than landmark information (e.g., head direction, egocentric boundaries, allocentric position, spatial context, task history to name a few), so making strong claims about the nature of the incoming signals is unwarranted.

      We agree of course that RSC does not only encode landmark information. We have clarified this point in the introduction (line 69-70) and formulated more carefully in the abstract (removed the word ‘landmark’ in line 17) and in the  introduction (line 82-83). In the discussion we explicitly state that ‘In our slice work we are blind to the exact nature of the signal that is carried by ATN and RSC axons’ (line 522-523).

      (2) Related to the first point, the authors hint at, but never explain, how coincident firing of ATN and RSC inputs would help anchor HD signals to visual landmarks. Although the lesion data (Yoder et al. 2011 and 2015) support their claims, it would be helpful if the proposed circuit mechanism was stated explicitly (a schematic of their model would be helpful in understanding the logic). For example, how do neurons integrate the "right" sets of landmarks and HD signals to ensure stable anchoring? Moreover, it would be helpful to discuss alternative models of HD-to-landmark anchoring, including several studies that have proposed that the integration may (also?) occur in RSC (Page & Jeffrey, 2018; Yan, Burgess, Bicanski, 2021; Sit & Goard, 2023). Currently, much of the Discussion simply summarizes the results of the study, this space could be better used in mapping the findings to the existing literature on the overarching question of how HD signals are anchored to landmarks.

      We agree with the reviewer on the importance of the question, how do neurons integrate the “right” sets of landmarks and HD signals to ensure stable anchoring? Based on our results we provide a schematic to illustrate possible scenarios, and we include it as a supplementary figure (Figure 1, to be included in the ms as Figure 7—figure supplement 2), as well as a new paragraph in the discussion section (line 516-531).  We point out that critical information on the convergence and divergence of functionally defined inputs is still lacking, both for principal cells and interneurons

      Interestingly, recent evidence from functional ultrasound imaging and electrical single cell recording demonstrated that visual objects may refine head direction coding, specifically in the dorsal presubiculum (Siegenthaler et al. bioRxiv 2024.10.21.619417; doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2024.10.21.619417). The increase in firing rate for HD cells whose preferred firing direction corresponds to a visual landmark could be supported by the supralinear summation of thalamic HD signals and retrosplenial input described in our study. We include this point in the discussion (line 460-462), and hope that our work will spur further investigations.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Richevaux et al investigate how anterior thalamic (AD) and retrosplenial (RSC) inputs are integrated by single presubicular (PrS) layer 3 neurons. They show that these two inputs converge onto single PrS layer 3 principal cells. By performing dual-wavelength photostimulation of these two inputs in horizontal slices, the authors show that in most layer 3 cells, these inputs summate supra-linearly. They extend the experiments by focusing on putative layer 4 PrS neurons, and show that they do not receive direct anterior thalamic nor retrosplenial inputs; rather, they are (indirectly) driven to burst firing in response to strong activation of the PrS network.

      This is a valuable study, that investigates an important question - how visual landmark information (possibly mediated by retrosplenial inputs) converges and integrates with HD information (conveyed by the AD nucleus of the thalamus) within PrS circuitry. The data indicate that near-coincident activation of retrosplenial and thalamic inputs leads to non-linear integration in target layer 3 neurons, thereby offering a potential biological basis for landmark + HD binding.

      The main limitations relate to the anatomical annotation of 'putative' PrS L4 neurons, and to the presentation of retrosplenial/thalamic input modularity. Specifically, more evidence should be provided to convincingly demonstrate that the 'putative L4 neurons' of the PrS are not distal subicular neurons (as the authors' anatomy and physiology experiments seem to indicate). The modularity of thalamic and retrosplenial inputs could be better clarified in relation to the known PrS modularity.

      We thank the reviewer for their important feedback. We discuss what defines presubicular layer 4 in horizontal slices, cite relevant literature, and provide new and higher resolution images. See below for detailed responses to the reviewer’s comments, in the section ‘recommendations to authors’.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors sought to determine, at the level of individual presubiculum pyramidal cells, how allocentric spatial information from the retrosplenial cortex was integrated with egocentric information from the anterior thalamic nuclei. Employing a dual opsin optogenetic approach with patch clamp electrophysiology, Richevaux, and colleagues found that around three-quarters of layer 3 pyramidal cells in the presubiculum receive monosynaptic input from both brain regions. While some interesting questions remain (e.g. the role of inhibitory interneurons in gating the information flow and through different layers of presubiculum, this paper provides valuable insights into the microcircuitry of this brain region and the role that it may play in spatial navigation).

      Strengths:

      One of the main strengths of this manuscript was that the dual opsin approach allowed the direct comparison of different inputs within an individual neuron, helping to control for what might otherwise have been an important source of variation. The experiments were well-executed and the data was rigorously analysed. The conclusions were appropriate to the experimental questions and were well-supported by the results. These data will help to inform in vivo experiments aimed at understanding the contribution of different brain regions in spatial navigation and could be valuable for computational modelling.

      Weaknesses:

      Some attempts were made to gain mechanistic insights into how inhibitory neurotransmission may affect processing in the presubiculum (e.g. Figure 5) but these experiments were a little underpowered and the analysis carried out could have been more comprehensively undertaken, as was done for other experiments in the manuscript.

      We agree that the role of interneurons for landmark anchoring through convergence in Presubiculum requires further investigation. In our latest work on the recruitment of VIP interneurons we begin to address this point in slices (Nassar et al., 2024 Neuroscience. doi: 10.1016/j.neuroscience.2024.09.032.); more work in behaving animals will be needed.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Full comments below. Beyond the (mostly minor) issues noted below, this is a very well-written paper and I look forward to seeing it in print.

      Major comments:

      (1) I found that the authors' claims sometimes outstrip their data, given that there were no in vivo recordings during behavior. For example, in the abstract, their results indicate "that layer 3 neurons can transmit a visually matched HD signal to medial entorhinal cortex", and in the conclusion they state "[...] cortical RSC projections that carry visual landmark information converge on layer 3 pyramidal cells of the dorsal presubiculum". However, they never measured the nature of the signals coming from ATN and RSC to L3 PrS (or signals sent to downstream regions). Their claim is somewhat reasonable with respect to ATN, where the majority of neurons encode HD, but neurons in RSC encode a vast array of spatial and non-spatial variables other than landmark information (e.g., head direction, egocentric boundaries, allocentric position, spatial context, task history to name a few), so making strong claims about the nature of the incoming signals is unwarranted.

      Our study was motivated by the seminal work from Yoder et al., 2011 and 2015, indicating that visual landmark information is processed in PoS and from there transmitted to the LMN.  Based on that, and in the interest of readability, we may have used an oversimplified shorthand for the type of signal carried by RSC axons. There are numerous studies indicating a role for RSC in encoding visual landmark information (Auger et al., 2012; Jacob et al., 2017; Lozano et al., 2017; Fischer et al., 2020; Keshavarzi et al., 2022; Sit and Goard, 2023); we agree of course that this is certainly not the only variable that is represented. Therefore we change the text to make this point clear:

      Abstract, line 17: removed the word ‘landmark’

      Introduction, line 69: added “...and supports an array of cognitive functions including memory, spatial and non-spatial context and navigation (Vann et al., 2009; Vedder et al., 2017). ”

      Introduction, line 82: changed “...designed to examine the convergence of visual landmark information, that is possibly integrated in the RSC, and vestibular based thalamic head direction signals”.

      Discussion, line 522-523: added “In our slice work we are blind to the exact nature of the signal that is carried by ATN and RSC axons.”

      (2) Related to the first point, the authors hint at, but never explain, how coincident firing of ATN and RSC inputs would help anchor HD signals to visual landmarks. Although the lesion data (Yoder et al., 2011 and 2015) support their claims, it would be helpful if the proposed circuit mechanism was stated explicitly (a schematic of their model would be helpful in understanding the logic). For example, how do neurons integrate the "right" sets of landmarks and HD signals to ensure stable anchoring? Moreover, it would be helpful to discuss alternative models of HD-to-landmark anchoring, including several studies that have proposed that the integration may (also?) occur in RSC (Page & Jeffrey, 2018; Yan, Burgess, Bicanski, 2021; Sit & Goard, 2023). Currently, much of the Discussion simply summarizes the results of the study, this space could be better used in mapping the findings to the existing literature on the overarching question of how HD signals are anchored to landmarks.

      We suggest a physiological mechanism for inputs to be selectively integrated and amplified, based on temporal coincidence. Of course there are still many unknowns, including the divergence of connections from a single thalamic or retrosplenial input neuron. The anatomical connectivity of inputs will be critical, as well as the subcellular arrangement of synaptic contacts. Neuromodulation and changes in the balance of excitation and inhibition will need to be factored in. While it is premature to provide a comprehensive explanation for landmark anchoring of HD signals in PrS, our results have led us to include a schematic, to illustrate our thinking (Figure 1, see below).

      Do HD tuned inputs from thalamus converge on similarly tuned HD neurons only? Is divergence greater for the retrosplenial inputs? If so, thalamic input might pre-select a range of HD neurons, and converging RSC input might narrow down the precise HD neurons that become active (Figure 1). In the future, the use of activity dependent labeling strategies might help to tie together information on the tuning of pre-synaptic neurons, and their convergence or divergence onto functionally defined postsynaptic target cells. This critical information is still lacking, for principal cells, and also for interneurons. 

      Interneurons may have a key role in HD-to-landmark anchoring. SST interneurons support stability of HD signals (Simonnet et al., 2017) and VIP interneurons flexibly disinhibit the system (Nassar et al., 2024). Could disinhibition be a necessary condition to create a window of opportunity for updating the landmark anchoring of the attractor? Single PV interneurons might receive thalamic and retrosplenial inputs non-specifically. We need to distinguish the conditions for when the excitation-inhibition balance in pyramidal cells may become tipped towards excitation, and the case of coincident, co-tuned thalamic and retrosplenial input may be such a condition. Elucidating the principles of hardwiring of inputs, as for example, selective convergence, will be necessary. Moreover, neuromodulation and oscillations may be critical for temporal coordination and precise temporal matching of HD-to-landmark signals.

      We note that matching directional with visual landmark information based on temporal coincidence as described here does not require synaptic plasticity. Algorithms for dynamic control of cognitive maps without synaptic plasticity have been proposed (Whittington et al., 2025, Neuron): information may be stored in neural attractor activity, and the idea that working memory may rely on recurrent updates of neural activity might generalize to the HD system. We include these considerations in the discussion (line 497-501; 521-531) and hope that our work will spur further experimental investigations and modeling work.

      While the focus of our work has been on PrS, we agree that RSC also treats HD and landmark signals. Possibly the RSC registers a direction to a landmark rather than comparing it with the current HD (Sit & Goard, 2023). We suggest that this integrated information then reaches PrS. In contrast to RSC, PrS is uniquely positioned to update the signal in the LMN (Yoder et al., 2011), cf. discussion (line 516-520).

      Minor comments:

      (1) Fig 1 - Supp 1: It appears there is a lot of input to PrS from higher visual regions, could this be a source of landmark signals?

      Yes, higher visual regions projecting to PrS may also be a source of landmark information, even if the visual signal is not integrated with HD at that stage (Sit & Goard 2023). The anatomical projection from the visual cortex was first described by Vogt & Miller (1983), but not studied on a functional level so far.

      (2) Fig 2F, G: Although the ATN and RSC measurements look quite similar, there are no stats included. The authors should use an explicit hypothesis test.

      We now compare the distributions of amplitudes and of latencies, using the Mann-Whitney U test. No significant difference between the two groups were found. Added in the figure legend: 2F, “Mann-Whitney U test revealed no significant difference (p = 0.95)”. 2G, “Mann-Whitney U test revealed no significant difference (p = 0.13)”.

      (3) Fig 2 - Supp 2A, C: Again, no statistical tests. This is particularly important for panel A, where the authors state that the latencies are similar but the populations appear to be different.

      Inputs from ATN and RSC have a similar ‘jitter’ (latency standard deviation) and ‘tau decay’. We added in the Fig 2 - Supp 2 figure legend: A, “Mann-Whitney U test revealed no significant difference (p = 0.26)”. C, “Mann-Whitney U test revealed no significant difference (p = 0.87)”.

      As a complementary measure for the reviewer, we performed the Kolmogorov-Smirnov test which confirmed that the populations’ distributions for ‘jitter’ were not significantly different, p = 0.1533.

      (4) Fig 4E, F: The statistics reporting is confusing, why are asterisks above the plots and hashmarks to the side?

      Asterisks refer to a comparison between ‘dual’ and ‘sum’ for each of the 5 stimulations in a Sidak multiple comparison test. Hashmarks refer to comparison of the nth stimulation to the 1st one within dual stimulation events (Friedman + Dunn’s multiple comparison test). We mention the two-way ANOVA p-value in the legend (Sum v Dual, for both Amplitude and Surface).

      (5) Fig 5C: I was confused by the 2*RSC manipulation. How do we know if there is amplification unless we know what the 2*RSC stim alone looks like?

      We now label the right panel in Fig 5C as “high light intensity” or “HLI”. Increasing the activation of Chrimson increases the amplitude of the summed EPSP that now exceeds the threshold for amplification of synaptic events. Amplification refers to the shape of the plateau-like prolongation of the peak, most pronounced on the second EPSP, now indicated with an arrow.  We clarify this also in the text (line 309-310).

      (6) Fig 6D (supplement 1): Typo, "though" should be "through"

      Yes, corrected (line 1015).

      (7) Fig 6G (supplement 1): Typo, I believe this refers to the dotted are in panel F, not panel A.

      Yes, corrected (line 1021).

      (8) Fig 7: The effect of muscarine was qualitatively described in the Results, but there is no quantification and it is not shown in the Figure. The results should either be reported properly or removed from the Results.

      We remove the last sentence in the Results.

      (9) Methods: The age and sex of the mice should be reported. Transgenic mouse line should be reported (along with stock number if applicable).

      We used C57BL6 mice with transgenic background (Ai14 mice, Jax n007914  reporter line) or C57BL6 wild type mice. This is now indicated in the Methods (lines 566-567).

      (10) Methods: If the viruses are only referred to with their plasmid number, then the capsid used for the viruses should be specified. For example, I believe the AAV-CAG-tomato virus used the retroAAV capsid, which is important to the experiment.

      Thank you for pointing this out. Indeed the AAV-CAG-tdTom virus used the retroAAV capsid, (line 575).

      (11) Data/code availability: I didn't see any sort of data/code availability statement, will the data and code be made publicly available?

      Data are stored on local servers at the SPPIN, Université Paris Cité, and are made available upon reasonable request. Code for intrinsic properties analysis is available on github (https://github.com/schoki0710/Intrinsic_Properties). This information is now included (line 717-720).

      (12) Very minor (and these might be a matter of opinion), but I believe "records" should be "recordings", and "viral constructions" should be "viral constructs".

      The text had benefited from proofreading by Richard Miles, who always preferred “records” to “recordings” in his writings. We choose to keep the current wording.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Below are two major points that require clarification.

      (1) In the last set of experiments presented by the authors (Figs 6 onwards) they focus on 'putative L4' PrS cells. For several lines of evidence (outlined below), I am convinced that these neurons are not presubicular, but belong to the subiculum. I think this is a major point that requires substantial clarification, in order to avoid confusion in the field (see also suggestions on how to address this comment at the end of this section).

      Several lines of evidence support the interpretation that, what the authors call 'L4 PrS neurons', are distal subicular cells:

      (1.1) The anatomical location of the retrogradely-labelled cells (from mammillary bodies injections), as shown in Figs 6B, C, and Fig. 6_1B, very clearly indicates that they belong to the distal subiculum. The subicular-to-PrS boundary is a sharp anatomical boundary that follows exactly the curvature highlighted by the authors' red stainings. The authors could also use specific subicular/PrS markers to visualize this border more clearly - e.g. calbindin, Wfs-1, Zinc (though I believe this is not strictly necessary, since from the pattern of AD fibers, one can already draw very clear conclusions, see point 1.3 below).

      Our criteria to delimit the presubiculum are the following: First and foremost, we rely on the defining presence of antero-dorsal thalamic fibers that target specifically the presubiculum and not the neighbouring subiculum (Simonnet et al., 2017, Nassar et al., 2018, Simonnet and Fricker, 2018; Jiayan Liu et al., 2021). This provides the precise outline of the presubicular superficial layers 1 to 3. It may have been confusing to the reviewer that our slicing angle gives horizontal sections. In fact, horizontal sections are favourable to identify the layer structure of the PrS,  based on DAPI staining and the variations in cell body size. The work by Ishihara and Fukuda (2016) illustrates in their Figure 12 that the presubicular layer 4 lies below the presubicular layer 3, and forms a continuation with the subiculum (Sub1). Their Figure 4 indicates with a dotted line the “generally accepted border between the (distal) subiculum and PreS”, and it runs from the proximal tip of superficial cells of the PrS toward the white matter, among the radial direction of the cortical tissue.  We agree with this definition. Others have sliced coronally (Cembrowski et al., 2018) which renders a different visualization of the border region with the subiculum.

      Second, let me explain the procedure for positioning the patch electrode in electrophysiological experiments on horizontal presubicular slices. Louis Richevaux, the first author, who carried out the layer 4 cell recordings, took great care to stay very close (<50 µm) to the lower limit of the zone where the GFP labeled thalamic axons can be seen. He was extremely meticulous about the visualization under the microscope, using LED illumination, for targeting. The electrophysiological signature of layer 4 neurons with initial bursts (but not repeated bursting, in mice) is another criterion to confirm their identity (Huang et al., 2017). Post-hoc morphological revelation showed their apical dendrites, running toward the pia, sometimes crossing through the layer 3, sometimes going around the proximal tip, avoiding the thalamic axons (Figure 6D). For example the cell in Figure 6, suppl. 1 panel D, has an apical dendrite that runs through layer 3 and layer 1. 

      Third, retrograde labeling following stereotaxic injection into the LMN is another criterion to define PrS layer 4. This approach is helpful for visualization, and is based on the defining axonal projection of layer 4 neurons (Yoder and Taube, 2011; Huang et al., 2017). Due to the technical challenge to stereotaxically inject only into LMN, the resultant labeling may not be limited to PrS layer 4. We cannot entirely exclude some overflow of retrograde tracers (B) or retrograde virus (C) to the neighboring MMN. This would then lead to co-labeling of the subiculum. In the main Figure 6, panels B and C, we agree that for this reason the red labelled cell bodies likely include also subicular neurons, on the proximal side, in addition to L4 presubicular neurons. We now point out this caveat in the main text (line 324-326) and in the methods (line 591-592).

      (1.2) Consistent with their subicular location, neuronal morphologies of the 'putative L4 cells' are selectively constrained within the subicular boundaries, i.e. they do not cross to the neighboring PrS (maybe a minor exception in Figs. 6_1D2,3). By definition, a neuron whose morphology is contained within a structure belongs to that structure.

      From a functional point of view, for the HD system, the most important criterion for defining presubicular layer 4 neurons is their axonal projection to the LMN (Yoder and Taube 2011). From an electrophysiological standpoint, it is the capacity of layer 4 neurons to fire initial bursts (Simonnet et al., 2013; Huang et al., 2017).  Anatomically, we note that the expectation that the apical dendrite should go straight up into layer 3 might not be a defining criterion in this curved and transitional periarchicortex. Presubicular layer 4 apical dendrites may cross through layer 3 and exit to the side, towards the subiculum (This is the red dendritic staining at the proximal end of the subiculum, at the frontier with the subiculum, Figure 6 C).

      (1.3) As acknowledged by the authors in the discussion (line 408): the PrS is classically defined by the innervation domain of AD fibers. As Figure 6B clearly indicates, the retrogradely-labelled cells ('putative L4') are convincingly outside the input domain of the AD; hence, they do not belong to the PrS.

      The reviewer is mistaken here, the deep layers 4 and 5/6 indeed do not lie in the zone innervated by the thalamic fibers (Simonnet et al., 2017; Nassar et al., 2018; Simonnet and Fricker, 2018) but still belong to the presubiculum. The presubicular deep layers are located below the superficial layers, next to, and in continuation of the subiculum. This is in agreement with work by Yoder and Taube 2011; Ishihara and Fukuda 2016; Boccara, … Witter, 2015; Peng et al., 2017 (Fig 2D); Yoshiko Honda et al., (Marmoset, Fig 2A) 2022; Balsamo et al., 2022 (Figure 2B).

      (1.4) Along with the above comment: in my view, the optogenetic stimulation experiments are an additional confirmation that the 'putative L4 cells' are subicular neurons, since they do not receive AD inputs at all (hence, they are outside of the PrS); they are instead only indirectly driven upon strong excitation of the PrS. This indirect activation is likely to occur via PrS-to-Subiculum 'back-projections', the existence of which is documented in the literature and also nicely shown by the authors (see Figure 1_1 and line 109).

      See above. Only superficial layers 1-3 of the presubiculum receive direct AD input.

      (1.5) The electrophysiological properties of the 'putative L4 cells' are consistent with their subicular identity, i.e. they show a sag current and they are intrinsically bursty.

      Presubicular layer 4 cells also show bursting behaviour and a sag current (Simonnet et al., 2013; Huang et al., 2017).

      From the above considerations, and the data provided by the authors, I believe that the most parsimonious explanation is that these retrogradely-labelled neurons (from mammillary body injections), referred to by the authors as 'L4 PrS cells', are indeed pyramidal neurons from the distal subiculum.

      We agree that the retrograde labeling is likely not limited to the presubicular layer 4 cells, and we now indicate this in the text (line 324-326). However, the portion of retrogradely labeled neurons that is directly below the layer 3 should be considered as part of the presubiculum.

      I believe this is a fundamental issue that deserves clarification, in order to avoid confusion/misunderstandings in the field. Given the evidence provided, I believe that it would be inaccurate to call these cells 'L4 PrS neurons'. However, I acknowledge the fact that it might be difficult to convincingly and satisfactorily address this issue within the framework of a revision. For example, it is possible that these 'putative L4 cells' might be retrogradely-labelled from the Medial Mammillary Body (a major subicular target) since it is difficult to selectively restrict the injection to the LMN, unless a suitable driver line is used (if available). The authors should also consider the possibility of removing this subset of data (referring to putative L4), and instead focus on the rest of the story (referring to L3)- which I think by itself, still provides sufficient advance.

      We agree with the reviewer that it is difficult to provide a satisfactory answer. To some extent, the reviewer’s comments target the nomenclature of the subicular region. This transitional region between the hippocampus and the entorhinal cortex has been notoriously ill defined, and the criteria are somewhat arbitrary for determining exactly where to draw the line. Based on the thalamic projection, presubicular layers 1-3 can now be precisely outlined, thanks to the use of viral labeling. But the presubicular layer 4 had been considered to be cell-free in early works, and termed ‘lamina dissecans’ (Boccara 2010), as the limit between the superficial and deep layers. Then it became of great interest to us and to the field, when the PrS layer 4 cells were first identified as LMN projecting neurons (Yoder and Taube 2011). This unique back-projection to the upstream region of the HD system is functionally very important, closing the loop of the Papez circuit (mammillary bodies - thalamus - hippocampal structures).

      We note that the reviewer does not doubt our results, rather questions the naming conventions. We therefore maintain our data. We agree that in the future a genetically defined mouse line would help to better pin down this specific neuronal population.

      We thank the reviewer for sharing their concerns and giving us the opportunity to clarify our experimental approach to target the presubicular layer 4. We hope that these explanations will be helpful to the readers of eLife as well.

      (2) The PrS anatomy could be better clarified, especially in relation to its modular organization (see e.g. Preston-Ferrer et al., 2016; Ray et al., 2017; Balsamo et al., 2022). The authors present horizontal slices, where cortical modularity is difficult to visualize and assess (tangential sections are typically used for this purpose, as in classical work from e.g. barrel cortex). I am not asking the authors to validate their observations in tangential sections, but just to be aware that cortical modules might not be immediately (or clearly) apparent, depending on the section orientation and thickness. The authors state that AD fibers were 'not homogeneously distributed' in L3 (line 135) and refer to 'patches of higher density in deep L3' (line 136). These statements are difficult to support unless more convincing anatomy and  . I see some L3 inhomogeneity in the green channel in Fig. 1G (last two panels) and also in Fig. 1K, but this seems to be rather upper L3. I wonder how consistent the pattern is across different injections and at what dorsoventral levels this L3 modularity is observed (I think sagittal sections might be helpful). If validated, these observations could point to the existence of non-homogeneous AD innervation domains in L3 - hinting at possible heterogeneity among the L3 pyramidal cell targets. Notably, modularity in L2 and L1 is not referred to. The authors state that AD inputs 'avoid L2' (line 131) but this statement is not in line with recent work (cited above) and is also not in line with their anatomy data in Fig. 1G, where modularity is already quite apparent in L2 (i.e. there are territories avoided by the AD fibers in L2) and in L1 (see for example the last image in Fig. 1G). This is the case also for the RSC axons (Fig. 1H) where a patchy pattern is quite clear in L1 (see the last image in panel H). Higher-mag pictures might be helpful here. These qualitative observations imply that AD and RSC axons probably bear a precise structural relationship relative to each other, and relative to the calbindin patch/matrix PrS organization that has been previously described. I am not asking the authors to address these aspects experimentally, since the main focus of their study is on L3, where RSC/AD inputs largely converge. Better anatomy pictures would be helpful, or at least a better integration of the authors' (qualitative) observations within the existing literature. Moreover, the authors' calbindin staining in Fig. 1K is not particularly informative. Subicular, PaS, MEC, and PrS borders should be annotated, and higher-resolution images could be provided. The authors should also check the staining: MEC appears to be blank but is known to strongly express calb1 in L2 (see 'island' by Kitamura et al., Ray et al., Science 2014; Ray et al., frontiers 2017). As additional validation for the staining: I would expect that the empty L2 patches in Figs. 1G (last two panels) would stain positive for Calbindin, as in previous work (Balsamo et al. 2022).

      We now provide a new figure showing the pattern of AD innervation in PrS superficial layers 1 to 3, with different dorso-ventral levels and higher magnification (Figure 2). Because our work was aimed at identifying connectivity between long-range inputs and presubicular neurons, we chose to work with horizontal sections that preserve well the majority of the apical dendrites of presubicular pyramidal neurons. We feel it is enriching for the presubicular literature to show the cytoarchitecture from different angles and to show patchiness in horizontal sections. The non-homogeneous AD innervation domains (‘microdomains’) in L3 were consistently observed across different injections in different animals.

      Author response image 1.

      Thalamic fiber innervation pattern. A, ventral, and B, dorsal horizontal section of the Presubiculum containing ATN axons expressing GFP. Patches of high density of ATN axonal ramifications in L3 are indicated as “ATN microdomains”. Layers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5/6 are indicated.  C, High magnification image (63x optical section)(different animal).<br />

      We also provide a supplementary figure with images of horizontal sections of calbindin staining in PrS, with a larger crop, for the reviewer to check (Figure 3, see below). We thank the reviewer for pointing out recent studies using tangential sections. Our results agree with the previous observation that AD axons are found in calbindin negative territories (cf Fig 1K). Calbindin+ labeling is visible in the PrS layer 2 as well as in some patches in the MEC (Figure 3 panel A). Calbindin staining tends to not overlap with the territories of ATN axonal ramification. We indicate the inhomogeneities of anterior thalamic innervation that form “microdomains” of high density of green labeled fibers, located in layer 1 and layer 3 (Figure 3, Panel A, middle). Panel B shows another view of a more dorsal horizontal section of the PrS, with higher magnification, with a big Calbindin+ patch near the parasubiculum.

      The “ATN+ microdomains” possess a high density of axonal ramifications from ATN, and have been previously documented in the literature. They are consistently present. Our group had shown them in the article by Nassar et al., 2018, at different dorsoventral levels (Fig 1 C (dorsal) and 1D (ventral) PrS). See also Simonnet et al., 2017, Fig 2B, for an illustration of the typical variations in densities of thalamic fibers, and supplementary Figure 1D. Also Jiayan Liu et al., 2021 (Figure 2 and Fig 5) show these characteristic microzones of dense thalamic axonal ramifications, with more or less intense signals across layers 1, 2, and 3.  While it is correct that thalamic axons can be seen to cross layer 2 to ramify in layer 1, we maintain that AD axons typically do not ramify in layer 2. We modify the text to say, “mostly” avoiding L2 (line 130).

      The reviewer is correct in pointing out that the 'patches of higher density in deep L3' are not only in the deep L3, as in the first panel in Fig 1G, but in the more dorsal sections they are also found in the upper L3. We change the text accordingly (line 135-136) and we provide the layer annotation in Figure 1G. We further agree with the reviewer that RSC axons also present a patchy innervation pattern. We add this observation in the text (line 144).

      It is yet unclear whether anatomical microzones of dense ATN axon ramifications in L3 might fulfill the criteria of a functional modularity, as it is the case for the calbindin patch/matrix PrS organization (Balsamo et al., 2022). As the reviewer points out, this will require more information on the precise structural relationship of AD and RSC axons relative to each other, as well as functional studies. Interestingly, we note a degree of variation in the amplitudes of oEPSC from different L3 neurons (Fig. 2F, discussion line 420; 428), which might be a reflection of the local anatomo-functional micro-organization.

      Minor points:

      (1) The pattern or retrograde labelling, or at least the way is referred to in the results (lines 104ff), seems to imply some topography of AD-to-PreS projections. Is it the case? How consistent are these patterns across experiments, and individual injections? Was there variability in injection sites along the dorso-ventral and possibly antero-posterior PrS axes, which could account for a possibly topographical AD-to-PrS input pattern? It would be nice to see a DAPI signal in Fig. 1B since the AD stands out quite clearly in DAPI (Nissl) alone.

      Yes, we find a consistent topography for the AD-to-PrS projection, for similar injection sites in the presubiculum. The coordinates for retrograde labeling were as indicated -4.06 (AP), 2.00 (ML) and -2.15 mm (DV) such that we cannot report on possible variations for different injection sites.

      (2) Fig. 2_2KM: this figure seems to show the only difference the authors found between AD and RS input properties. The authors could consider moving these data into main Fig. 2 (or exchanging them with some of the panels in F-O, which instead show no difference between AD and RSC). Asterisks/stats significance is not visible in M.

      For space reasons we leave the panels of Fig. 2_2KM in the supplementary section. We increased the size of the asterisk in M.

      (3) The data in Fig. 1_1 are quite interesting, since some of the PrS projection targets are 'non-canonical'. Maybe the authors could consider showing some injection sites, and some fluorescence images, in addition to the schematics. Maybe the authors could acknowledge that some of these projection targets are 'putative' unless independently verified by e.g. retrograde labeling. Unspecific white matter labelling and/or spillover is always a potential concern.

      We now include the image of the injection site for data in Fig. 1_1 as a supplementary Fig. 1_2. The Figure 1_1 shows the retrogradely labeled upstream areas of Presubiculum.

      Author response image 2.

      Retrobeads were injected in the right Presubiculum.<br />

      (4) The authors speculate that the near-coincident summation of RS + AD inputs in L3 cells could be a potential mechanism for the binding of visual + HD information in PrS. However, landmarks are learned, and learning typically implies long-term plasticity. As the authors acknowledge in the discussion (lines 493ff) GluR1 is not expressed in PrS cells. What alternative mechanics could the authors envision? How could the landmark-update process occur in PrS, if is not locally stored? RSC could also be involved (Jakob et al) as acknowledged in the introduction - the authors should keep this possibility open also in the discussion.

      A similar point has been raised by Reviewer 1, please check our answer to their point 2. Briefly, our results indicate that HD-to-landmark updating is a multi-step process. RSC may be one of the places where landmarks are learned. The subsequent temporal mapping of HD to landmark signals in PrS might be plasticity-free, as matching directional with visual landmark information based on temporal coincidence does not necessarily require synaptic plasticity.  It seems likely that there is no local storage and no change in synaptic weights in PrS. The landmark-anchored HD signals reach LMN via L4 neurons, sculpting network dynamics across the Papez circuit. One possibility is that the trace of a landmark that matches HD may be stored as patterns of neural activity that could guide navigation (cf. El-Gaby et al., 2024, Nature) Clearly more work is needed to understand how the HD attractor is updated on a mechanistic level. Recent work in prefrontal cortex mentions “activity slots” and delineates algorithms for dynamic control of cognitive maps without synaptic plasticity (Whittington et al., 2025, Neuron): information may be stored in neural attractor activity, and the idea that working memory may rely on recurrent updates of neural activity might generalize to the HD system. We include these considerations in the discussion (line 499-503; 523-533) and also point to alternative models (line 518 -522) including modeling work in the retrosplenial cortex.

      (5) The authors state that (lines 210ff) their cluster analysis 'provided no evidence for subpopulations of layer 3 cells (but see Balsamo et al., 2022)' implying an inconsistency; however, Balsamo et al also showed that the (in vivo) ephys properties of the two HD cell 'types' are virtually identical, which is in line with the 'homogeneity' of L3 ephys properties (in slice) in the authors' data. Regarding the possible heterogeneity of L3 cells: the authors report inhomogeneous AD innervation domains in L3 (see also main comment 2) and differences in input summation (some L3 cells integrate linearly, some supra-linearly; lines 272) which by itself might already imply some heterogeneity. I would therefore suggest rewording the statements to clarify what the lack of heterogeneity refers to.

      We agree. In line 212 we now state “cluster analysis (Figure 2D) provided no evidence for subpopulations of layer 3 cells in terms of intrinsic electrophysiological properties (see also Balsamo et al., 2022).”

      (6) n=6 co-recorded pairs are mentioned at line 348, but n=9 at line 366. Are these numbers referring to the same dataset? Please correct or clarify

      Line 349 refers to a set of 6 co-recorded pairs (n=12 neurons) in double injected mice with Chronos injected in ATN and Chrimson in RSC (cf. Fig. 7E). The 9 pairs mentioned in line 367 refer to another type of experiment where we stimulated layer 3 neurons by depolarizing them to induce action potential firing while recording neighboring layer 4 neurons to assess connectivity. Line 367  now reads: “In n = 9 paired recordings, we did not detect functional synapses between layer 3 and layer 4 neurons.”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Questions for the authors/points for addressing:

      I found that the slice electrophysiology experiments were not reported with sufficient detail. For example, in Figure 2, I am assuming that the voltage clamp experiments were carried out using the Cs-based recording solution, while the current clamp experiments were carried out using the K-Gluc intracellular solution. However, this is not explicitly stated and it is possible that all of these experiments were performed using the K-Gluc solution, which would give slightly odd EPSCs due to incomplete space/voltage clamp. Furthermore, the method states that gabazine was used to block GABA(A) receptor-mediated currents, but not when this occurred. Was GABAergic neurotransmission blocked for all measurements of EPSC magnitude/dynamics? If so, why not block GABA(B) receptors? If not blocking GABAergic transmission for measuring EPSCs, why not? This should be stated explicitly either way.

      The addition of drugs or difference of solution is indicated in the figure legend and/or in the figure itself, as well as in the methods. We now state explicitly: “In a subset of experiments, the following drugs were used to modulate the responses to optogenetic stimulations; the presence of these drugs is indicated in the figure and figure legend, whenever applicable.” (line 632). A Cs-based internal solution and gabazine were used in Figure 5, this is now indicated in the Methods section (line 626). All other experiments were performed using K-Gluc as an internal solution and ACSF.

      Methods: The experiments involving animals are incompletely reported. For example, were both sexes used? The methods state "Experiments were performed on wild‐type and transgenic C57Bl6 mice" - what transgenic mice were used and why is this not reported in detail (strain, etc)? I would refer the authors to the ARRIVE guidelines for reporting in vivo experiments in a reproducible manner (https://arriveguidelines.org/).

      We now added this information in the methods section, subsection “Animals” (line 566-567). Animals of both sexes were used. The only transgenic mouse line used was the Ai14 reporter line (no phenotype), depending on the availability in our animal facility.

      For experiments comparing ATN and RSC inputs onto the same neuron (e.g. Figure 2 supplement 2 G - J), are the authors certain that the observed differences (e.g. rise time and paired-pulse facilitation on the ATN input) are due to differences in the synapses and not a result of different responses of the opsins? Refer to https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31822522/ from Jess Cardin's lab. This could easily be tested by switching which opsin is injected into which nucleus (a fair amount of extra work) or comparing the Chrimson synaptic responses with those evoked using Chronos on the same projection, as used in Figure 2 (quite easy as authors should already have the data).

      We actually did switch the opsins across the two injection sites. In Figure 2 - supplement 2G-J, the values linked by a dashed line result from recordings in the switched configuration with respect to the original configuration (in full lines, Chronos injected in RSC and Chrimson in ATN). The values from switched configuration followed the trend of the main configuration and were not statistically different (Mann-Whitney U test).

      Statistical reporting: While the number of cells is generally reported for experiments, the number of slices and animals is not. While slice ephys often treat cells as individual biological replicates, this is not entirely appropriate as it could be argued that multiple cells from a single animal are not independent samples (some sort of mixed effects model that accounts for animals as a random effect would be better). For the experiments in the manuscript, I don't think this is necessary, but it would certainly reassure the reader to report how many animals/slices each dataset came from. At a bare minimum, one would want any dataset to be taken from at least 3 animals from 2 different litters, regardless of how many cells are in there.

      Our slice electrophysiology experiments include data from 38 successfully injected animals: 14 animals injected in ATN, 20 animals injected in RSC, and 4 double injected animals. Typically, we recorded 1 to 3 cells per slice. We now include this information in the text or in the figure legends (line 159, 160, 297, 767, 826, 831, 832, 839, 845, 901, 941).

      For the optogenetic experiments looking at the summation of EPSPs (e.g. figure 4), I have two questions: why were EPSPs measured and not EPSCs? The latter would be expected to give a better readout of AMPA receptor-mediated synaptic currents. And secondly, why was 20 Hz stimulation used for these experiments? One might expect theta stimulation to be a more physiologically-relevant frequency of stimulation for comparing ATN and RSC inputs to single neurons, given the relevance with spatial navigation and that the paper's conclusions were based around the head direction system. Similarly, gamma stimulation may also have been informative. Did the authors try different frequencies of stimulation?

      Question 1. The current clamp configuration allows to measure  EPSPamplification/prolongation by NMDA or persistent Na currents (cf.  Fricker and Miles 2000), which might contribute to supralinearity.

      Question 2. In a previous study from our group about the AD to PrS connection (Nassar et al., 2018), no significant difference was observed on the dynamics of EPSCs between stimulations at 10 Hz versus 30 Hz. Therefore we chose 20 Hz. This value is in the range of HD cell firing (Taube 1995, 1998 (peak firing rates, 18 to 24 spikes/sec in RSC; 41 spikes/sec in AD)(mean firing rates might be lower), Blair and Sharp 1995). In hindsight, we agree that it would have been useful to include 8Hz or 40Hz stimulations. 

      The GABA(A) antagonist experiments in Figure 5 are interesting but I have concerns about the statistical power of these experiments - n of 3 is absolutely borderline for being able to draw meaningful conclusions, especially if this small sample of cells came from just 1 or 2 animals. The number of animals used should be stated and/or caution should be applied when considering the potential mechanisms of supralinear summation of EPSPs. It looks like the slight delay in RSC input EPSP relative to ATN that was in earlier figures is not present here - could this be the loss of feedforward inhibition?

      The current clamp experiments in the presence of QX314 and a Cs gluconate based internal solution were preceded by initial experiments using puff applications of glutamate to the recorded neurons (not shown). Results from those experiments had pointed towards a role for TTX resistant sodium currents and for NMDA receptor activation as a factor favoring the amplification and prolongation of glutamate induced events. They inspired the design of the dual wavelength stimulation experiments shown in Figure 5, and oriented our discussion of the results. We agree of course that more work is required to dissect the role of disinhibition for EPSP amplification. This is however beyond the present study.

      Concerning the EPSP onset delays following RSC input stimulation:  In this set of experiments, we compensated for the notoriously longer delay to EPSP onset, following RSC axon stimulation, by shifting the photostimulation (red) of RSC fibers to -2 ms, relative to the onset of photostimulation of ATN fibers (blue). This experimental trick led to an improved  alignment of the onset of the postsynaptic response, as shown in the figure below for the reviewer.

      Author response image 3.

      In these experiments, the onset of RSC photostimulation was shifted forward in time by -2 ms, in an attempt to better align the EPSP onset to the one evoked by ATN stimulation.<br />

      We insert in the results a sentence to indicate that experiments illustrated in Figure 5 were performed in only a small sample of 3 cells that came from 2 mice (line 297), so caution should be applied. In the discussion we  formulate more carefully, “From a small sample of cells it appears that EPSP amplification may be facilitated by a reduction in synaptic inhibition (n = 3; Figure 5)” (line 487).

      Figure 7: I appreciate the difficulties in making dual recordings from older animals, but no conclusion about the RSC input can legitimately be made with n=1.

      Agreed. We want to avoid any overinterpretation, and point out in the results section that the RSC stimulation data is from a single cell pair. The sentence now reads : “... layer 4 neurons occurred after firing in the layer 3 neuron, following ATN afferent stimuli, in 4 out of 5 cell pairs. We also observed this sequence when RSC input was activated, in one tested pair.” line (347-349)

      Minor points:

      Line 104: 'within the two subnuclei that form the anterior thalamus' - the ATN actually has three subdivisions (AD, AV, AM) so this should state 'two of the three nuclei that form the anterior thalamus...'

      Corrected, line 103

      Line 125: should read "figure 1F" and not "figure 2F".

      Corrected, line 124

      Line 277-280: Why were two different posthoc tests used on the same data in Figures 3E & F?

      We used Sidak’s multicomparison test to compare each event Sum vs. Dual (two different configurations at each time point - asterisks) and Friedman’s and Dunn’s to compare the nth EPSP amplitude to the first one for Dual events (same configuration between time points - hashmarks). We give two-way ANOVA results in the legend.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Major concerns:

      (1) Is the direct binding of MCAK to the microtubule cap important for its in vivo function?

      a.The authors claim that their "study provides mechanistic insights into understanding the end-binding mechanism of MCAK". I respectfully disagree. My concern is that the paper offers limited insights into the physiological significance of direct end-binding for MCAK activity, even in vitro. The authors estimate that in the absence of other proteins in vitro, ~95% of MCAK molecules arrive at the tip by direct binding in the presence of ~ physiological ATP concentration (1 mM). In cells, however, the major end-binding pathway may be mediated by EB, with the direct binding pathway contributing little to none. This is a reasonable concern because the apparent dissociation constant measured by the authors shows that MCAK binding to microtubules in the presence of ATP is very weak (69 uM). This concern should be addressed by 1) calculating relative contributions of direct and EB-dependent pathways based on the affinities measured in this and other published papers and estimated intracellular concentrations. Although there are many unknowns about these interactions in cells, a modeling-based analysis may be revealing. 2) the recapitulation of these pathways using purifying proteins in vitro is also feasible. Ideally, some direct evidence should be provided, e.g. based on MCAK function-separating mutants (GDP-Pi tubulin binding vs. catalytic activity at the curled protofilaments) that contribution from the direct binding of MCAK to microtubule cap in EB presence is significant.

      We thank the reviewer for the thoughtful comments.

      (1) We think that the end-binding affinity of MCAK makes a significant contribution for its cellular functions. To elucidate this concept, we now use a simple model shown in Supplementary Appendix-2 (see pages 49-51, lines 1246-1316). In this model, we simplified MCAK and EB1 binding to microtubule ends by considering only these two proteins while neglecting other factors (e.g. XMAP215). Specifically, we considered two scenarios: one in which both proteins freely diffuse in the cytoplasm and another where MCAK is localized to specific cellular structures, such as the centrosome or centromere. Based on the modeling results, we argue that MCAK's functional impact at microtubule ends derives both from its intrinsic end-binding capacity and its ability to strengthen the EB1-mediated end association pathway.

      (2) We agree with the reviewer that MCAK exhibiting a lower end-binding affinity (69 µM) is indeed intriguing, as one might intuitively expect a stronger affinity, e.g. in the nanomolar range. Several factors may contribute to this observation. First, this could be partly due to the in vitro system employed, which may not perfectly replicate in vivo conditions, especially when considering cellular processes quantitatively. Variations in medium composition can significantly influence the binding state. For example, reducing salt concentration leads to a marked increase in MCAK’s binding affinity (Helenius et al., 2006; Maurer et al., 2011; McHugh et al., 2019). Additionally, while numerous binding events with short durations were detected, we excluded transient interactions from our analysis to facilitate quantification. This likely leads to an underestimation of the on-rate and, consequently, the binding affinity. Moreover, to minimize the interference of purification tags (His-tag), we ensured their complete removal during protein sample preparation. Previous studies reported that retaining the His-tag of MAPs affects the binding affinity to microtubules (Maurer et al., 2011; Zhu et al., 2009). Finally, a low affinity is not necessarily unexpected. Considering the microtubule end as a receptor with multiple binding sites for MCAK, the overall binding affinity is in the nanomolar range (260 nM). This does not necessarily contradict MCAK being a microtubule dynamics regulator as only a few MCAK molecules may suffice to induce microtubule catastrophe (as discussed on page 13, lines 408-441).

      (3) Ideally, we would search for mutants that specifically interfere with the binding of GDP-Pi-tubulin or the curled protofilaments. However, the mutant we tested significantly impacts the overall affinity of MCAK to microtubules (both end and lattice), making it challenging to isolate and discuss the function of MCAK with respect to the binding to GDP-Pi-tubulin alone. Additionally, we also think that the GDP-Pi-tubulin in the EB cap and the tubulin in the curved protofilaments may share structural similarities. For instance, the tubulin dimers in both states may be less compact compared to those in the lattice, which could explain why MCAK recognizes both simultaneously (Manka and Moores, 2018). However, this remains a conjecture, as there is currently no direct evidence to support it.

      b. As mentioned in the Discussion, preferential MCAK binding to tubulins near the MT tip may enhance MCAK targeting of terminal tubulins AFTER the MCAK has been "delivered" to the distal cap via the EB-dependent mechanism. This is a different targeting mechanism than the direct MCAK-binding. However, the measured binding affinity between MCAK and GMPCPP tubulins is so weak (69 uM), that this effect is also unlikely to have any impact because the binding events between MCAK and microtubule should be extremely rare. Without hard evidence, the arguments for this enhancement are very speculative.

      Please see our response to the comment No. 1. Additionally, we have revised our discussion to discuss the end-binding affinity of MCAK as well as its physiological relevance (please see page 13, lines 408-441; and see Supplementary Appendix-2 in pages 49-51, lines 1246-1316).

      (2) The authors do not provide sufficient justification and explanation for their investigation of the effects of different nucleotides in MCAK binding affinity. A clear summary of the nucleotide-dependent function of MCAK (introduction with references to prior affinity measurements and corresponding MCAK affinities), the justifications for this investigation, and what has been learned from using different nucleotides (discussion) should be provided. My take on these results is that by far the strongest effect on microtubule wall and tip binding is achieved by adding any adenosine, whereas differences between different nucleotides are relatively minor. Was this expected? What can be learned from the apparent similarity between ATP and AMPPNP effects in some assays (Fig 1E, 4C, etc) but not others (Fig 1D,F, etc)?

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have revised the manuscript accordingly, and below are the main points of our response

      (1) The experiment investigating the effects of different nucleotides on MCAK binding affinity was inspired by the previous studies demonstrating that kinesin-13 interactions with microtubules are highly dependent on their adenosine-bound states. For example, kinesin-13s tightly bind microtubules and prefer to form protofilament curls or rings with tubulin in the AMPPNP state, whereas kinesin-13s are considered to move along the microtubule lattice via one-dimensional diffusion in the ADP·Pi state (Asenjo et al., 2013; Benoit et al., 2018; Friel and Howard, 2011; Helenius et al., 2006). Based on these observations, we wondered whether MCAK's adenosine-bound states might similarly affect its binding preference for growing microtubule ends. We have made the motivation clear in the revised manuscript (please see page 7, lines 199-209).

      (2) Our main finding regarding the effects of nucleotides is that MCAK shows differential end-binding affinity and preference based on its nucleotide state. First, MCAK shows the greatest preference for growing microtubule ends in the ATP state, supporting the idea that diffusive MCAK (MCAK·ATP) can directly bind to growing microtubule ends. Second, MCAK·ATP also demonstrates a binding preference for GTPγS microtubules and the ends of GMPCPP microtubules. The similar trends in binding preference suggest that the affinity for GDP·Pi-tubulin and GTP-tubulin likely underpins MCAK’s preference for growing microtubule ends. To clarify these points, we have added further discussions in the manuscript (please see page 8, lines 230-233; page9, lines 258-270 and pages 13-14, lines 443-458).

      (3) It is not clear why the authors decided to use these specific mutant MCAK proteins to advance their arguments about the importance of direct tip binding. Both mutants are enzymatically inactive. Both show roughly similar tip interactions, with some (minor) differences. Without a clear understanding of what these mutants represent, the provided interpretations of the corresponding results are not convincing.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. In the revised manuscript, we no longer draw conclusions about the importance of end-binding based on the mutant data. Instead, we think that the mutant data provide insights into the structural basis of the end-binding preference. Therefore, we have rewritten the results in this section to more accurately reflect these findings (please see page 10, lines 295-327).

      (4) GMPCPP microtubules are used in the current study to represent normal dynamic microtubule ends, based on some published studies. However, there is no consensus in the field regarding the structure of growing vs. GMPCPP-stabilized microtubule ends, which additionally may be sensitive to specific experimental conditions (buffers, temperature, age of microtubules, etc). To strengthen the authors' argument, Taxol-stabilized microtubules should be used as a control to test if the effects are specific. Additionally, the authors should consider the possibility that stronger MCAK binding to the ends of different types of microtubules may reflect MCAK-dependent depolymerization events on a very small scale (several tubulin rows). These nano-scale changes to tubulins and the microtubule end may lead to the accumulation of small tubulin-MCAK aggregates, as is seen with other MAPs and slowly depolymerizing microtubules. These effects for MCAK may also depend on specific nucleotides, further complicating the interpretation. This possibility should be addressed because it provides a different interpretation than presented in the manuscript.

      Regarding the two points raised here, our thoughts are as following

      (1) The end of GMPCPP-stabilized microtubules differs from that of growing microtubules, with the most obvious known difference being the absence of the region enriched in GDP-Pi-tubulin. We consider the end of GMPCPP microtubules as an analogue of the distal tip of growing microtubules, based on two key features: (1) curled protofilaments and (2) GMPCPP-tubulin, a close analogue of GTP-tubulin. Notably, both features are present at the ends of both GMPCPP-stabilized and growing microtubules. Moreover, we agree with the suggestion to use taxol-stabilized microtubules as a control. This would eliminate the second feature (absence of GTP-tubulin), allowing us to isolate the effect of the first feature. Therefore, we conducted this experiment, and our data showed that MCAK exhibits only a mild binding preference for the ends of taxol-stabilized microtubules, which is much less pronounced than for the ends of GMPCPP microtubules. This observation supports the idea that GMPCPP-stabilized ends closely resemble the growing ends of microtubules.

      (2) The reviewer suggested that stronger MCAK binding to the ends of different types of microtubules might reflect MCAK-dependent depolymerization events on a very small scale. This is an insightful possibility, which we had overlooked in the original manuscript. Fortunately, we performed the experiments at the single-molecule concentrations. Upon reviewing the raw data, we found that under ATP conditions, the binding events of MCAK were not cumulative (see Fig. X1 below) and showed no evidence of local accumulation of MCAK-tubulin aggregates.

      Author response image 1.

      The representative kymograph showing GFP-MCAK binding at the ends and lattice of GMPCPP microtubules in the presence of 1 mM ATP (10 nM GFP-MCAK), which corresponded to Fig. 5A. The arrow: the end-binding of MCAK. Vertical bar: 1 s; horizontal bar: 2 mm.

      (5) It would be helpful if the authors provided microtubule polymerization rates and catastrophe frequencies for assays with dynamic microtubules and MCAK in the presence of different nucleotides. The video recordings of microtubules under these conditions are already available to the authors, so it should not be difficult to provide these quantifications. They may reveal that microtubule ends are different (or not) under the examined conditions. It would also help to increase the overall credibility of this study by providing data that are easy to compare between different labs.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. In the revised manuscript, we have provided data on the growth rates, which are similar across the different nucleotide states (Fig. s1). However, due to the short duration of our recordings (usually 5 minutes, but with a high frame rate, 10 fps), we did not observe many catastrophe events, which prevented us from quantifying catastrophe frequency using the current dataset. Since we measured the binding kinetics of MCAK during the growing phase of microtubules, the similar growth rates and microtubule end morphologies suggest that the microtubule ends are comparable across the different conditions.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      a. Please provide more details about how the microtubule-bound molecules were selected for analysis (include a description of scripts, selection criteria, and filters, if any). Fig 1A arrows do not provide sufficient information.

      We first measured the fluorescence intensity of each binding event. A probability distribution of these intensities was then constructed and fitted with a Gaussian function. A binding event was considered to correspond to a single molecule if its intensity fell within μ±2σ of the distribution. The details of the single-molecule screening process are now provided in the revised manuscript (see page17, lines 574-583).

      b. Evidence that MCAK is dimeric in solution should be provided (gel filtration results, controls for Figs1A - bleaching, or comparison with single GFP fluorophore).

      In the revised manuscript, we provide the gel filtration results of purified MCAK and other proteins used in this study. The elution volume of the peak for GFP-MCAK corresponded to a molecular weight range between 120 kDa (EB1-GFP dimer) and 260 kDa (XMAP215-GFP-his6), suggesting that GFP-MCAK exists as a dimer (~220 kDa) under experimental condition (please see Fig.s1 and page 5, lines 104-105). In addition, we also measured the fluorescence intensity of both MCAK<sup>sN+M</sup> and MCAK. MCAK<sup>sN+M</sup> is a monomeric mutant that contains the neck domain and motor domain (Wang et al., 2012). The average intensity of MCAK<sup>sN+M</sup> is 196 A.U., about 65% of that of MCAK (300 A.U.). These two measurements suggest that the purified MCAK used in this study exists dimers (see Fig. s1).

      c. Evidence that MCAK on microtubules represents single molecules should be provided (distribution of GFP brightness with controls - GFP imaged under identical conditions). Since assay buffers include detergent, which is not desirable, all controls should be done using the same assay conditions. The authors should rule out that their main results are detergent-sensitive.

      (1) Regarding if MCAK on microtubules represent single molecules: please refer to our responses to the two points above.

      (2) To rule out the effect of tween-20 (0.0001%, v/v), we performed additional control experiments. The results showed that it has no significant effect on microtubule-binding affinity of MCAK (see Figure below).

      Author response image 2.

      Tween-20 (0.0001%, v/v) has no significant effect on microtubule-binding affinity of MCAK. (A) The representative projection images of GFP-MCAK (5 nM) binding to taxol-stabled GDP microtubules in the presence of 1 mM AMPPNP with or without tween-20. The upper panel showed the results of the control experiments performed without MCAK. Scale bar: 5 mm. (B) Statistical quantification of the binding intensity of GFP-MCAK binding to GDP microtubules with or without tween-20 (53 microtubules from 3 assays and 70 microtubules from 3 assays, respectively). Data were presented as mean ± SEM. Statistical comparisons were performed using the two-tailed Mann-Whitney U test with Bonferroni correction, n.s., no significance.

      d. How did the authors plot single-molecule intensity distributions? I am confused as to why the intensity distribution for single molecules in Fig 1D and 2A looks so perfectly smooth, non-pixelated, and broader than expected for GFP wavelength. Please provide unprocessed original distributions, pixel size, and more details about how the distributions were processed.

      In the revised manuscript, we provided unprocessed original data in Fig. 1B and Fig. 2A. We thank the reviewer for pointing out this problem.

      e. Many quantifications are based on a limited number of microtubules and the number of molecules is not provided, starting from Fig 1D and down. Please provide detailed statistics and explain what is plotted (mean with SEM?) on each graph.

      We performed a thorough inspection of the manuscript and corrected the identified issues.

      f. Plots with averaged data should be supplemented with error bars and N should be provided in the legend. E.g. Fig 1C - average position of MT and peak positions.

      We agree with the reviewer. In the revised manuscript, we have made the changes accordingly (e.g. Fig. 2C).

      g. Detailed information should be provided about protein constructs used in this work including all tags. The use of truncated proteins or charged/bulky tags can modify protein-microtubule interactions.

      We agree with the reviewer. In the revised manuscript, we provide the information of all constructs (see Fig. s1 and the related descriptions in Methods, pages 15-16, lines 476-534).

      h. Line 515: We estimated that the accuracy of microtubule end tracking was ~6 nm by measuring the standard error of the distribution of the estimated error in the microtubule end position. - evidence should be provided using the conditions of this study, not the reference to the prior work by others.

      i. Line 520: We estimated that the accuracy of the measured position was ~2 nm by measuring the standard error of the fitting peak location". Please provide evidence.

      Point h-i: we now provide detailed descriptions of how to estimate tracking and measurement accuracy and error in our work. Please see pages 18-19, lines 626-645.

      j. Kymographs in Fig 5G are barely visible. Please provide single-channel greyscale images. What are the dim molecules diffusing on this microtubule?

      We have incorporated the changes suggested by the reviewer. We think that some of the dim signals may result from stochastic background noise, while others likely represent transient bindings of MCAK. The exposure time in our experiments was approximately 0.05 seconds; if the binding duration were shorter than this, the signal would be lower (i.e. the “dim” signals). It is important to note that in this study, we selected binding events lasting at least 2 consecutive frames, meaning transient binding events were not included. This point has been clarified in the Methods section (see page17, lines 573-583).

      k. Please provide a methods description for Fig 6. Did the buffer include 1 mM ATP? The presence of ATP would make these conditions more physiological. ATP concentration should be stated clearly in the main text or figure legend.

      The buffer contains ATP. In the revised manuscript, we have provided the methods for the experiments of microtubule dynamics assay, as well as the analysis of microtubule lifetimes and catastrophe frequency (see page 17, lines 561-572 and page 20, lines 685-690).

      l. Line 104: experiment was performed in BRB80 supplemented with 50 mM KCl and 1 mM ATP, providing a nearly physiological ion strength. Please provide a reference or add your calculations in Methods.

      We have provided references on page 5, lines 101-104 of our manuscript.

      m. What was the MCAK concentration in Figure 4? Did the microtubule shorten under any of these conditions?

      In these experiments, we used a very low concentration of MCAK and taxol-stabilized microtubules, so there’s no microtubule shortening observed here. ATP: 10 nM GFP-MCAK; AMPPNP: 1 nM GFP-MCAK; ADP: 10 nM GFP-MCAK; APO state: 0.1 nM GFP-MCAK.

      Other criticism:

      Text improvements are recommended in the Discussion. For example, line 348: Fourth, the loss of the binding preference.. suggests that the binding preference .. is required for the optimal .. preference.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this. In the revised manuscript, we conducted a thorough revision and review of the text.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Chen et al. investigate the localization of microtubule kinesin-13 MCAK to the microtubule ends. MCAK is a prominent microtubule depolymerase whose molecular mechanisms of action have been extensively studied by a number of labs over the last ~twenty years. Here, the authors use single-molecule approaches to investigate the precise localization of MCAK on growing microtubules and conclude that MCAK preferentially binds to a GDP-Pi-tubulin portion of the microtubule end. The conclusions are speculative and not well substantiated by the data, making the impact of the study in its current form rather limited. Specifically, greater effort should be made to define the region of MCAK binding on microtubule ends, as well as its structural characteristics. Given that MCAK has been previously shown to effectively tip-track growing microtubule ends through an established interaction with EB proteins, the physiological relevance of the present study is unclear. Finally, the manuscript does not cite or properly discuss a number of relevant literature references, the results of which should be directly compared and contrasted to those presented here.

      We thank the reviewer for the comments. As these suggestions are more thoroughly expressed in the following comments for authors, we will provide the responses in the corresponding sections, as shown below.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Significant concerns:

      (1) Establishing the precise localization of MCAK wrt microtubule end is highly non-trivial. More details should be provided, including substantial supplementary data. In particular, the authors claim ~6 nm accuracy in microtubule end positioning - this should be substantiated by data showing individual overlaid microtubule end intensity profiles as well as fits with standard deviations etc. Furthermore, to conclude that MCAK binds behind XMAP215, the authors should look at the localization of the two proteins simultaneously, on the same microtubule end. Notably, EB binding profiles are well known to exponentially decay along the microtubule lattice - this is not very apparent from the presented data. If MCAK's autonomous binding pattern matches that of EB, we should be seeing an exponentially-decaying localization for MCAK as well? However, averaged MCAK signals seem to only be fitted to Gaussian. Note that the EB binding region (i.e. position and size of the EB comet) can be substantially modulated by increasing the microtubule growth rate - this can be easily accomplished by increasing tubulin concentrations or the addition of XMAP215 (e.g. see Maurer et al. Cur Bio 2014). Thus to establish that MCAK on its own binds the same region as EB, experiments that directly modulate the size and the position of this region should be added.

      (1) We thank the reviewer for this comment. Regarding the accuracy in microtubule end positioning, we now provide more details, and please see pages 18-19, lines 625-645 in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Regarding the relative localization of XMAP215 and MCAK, we performed additional experiments to record their colocalizations simultaneously, on the same microtubule end. Our results showed that MCAK predominantly binds behind XMAP215, with 14.5% appearing within the XMAP215’s binding region. Please see Fig. 2.D-E and lines 184-197 in the revised manuscript.

      (3) Regarding the exponential decay of the EB1 signal along microtubules, we observed that the position probability distribution measured in the present study follows a Gaussian distribution, and the expected exponential decay was not apparent. Since the exponential decay is thought to result from the time delay between tubulin polymerization and GTP hydrolysis, slower polymerization is expected to reduce this latency (Maurer et al., 2014). In our experiments, the growth rate was relatively low (~0.7 mm/min), much slower than the rate observed in cells, where the comet-shaped EB1 signal is most pronounced. The previous study has shown that the exponential decay of EB1 is more pronounced at growth rates exceeding 3 mm/min in vitro (Maurer et al., 2014). Therefore, we think that the relatively slow growth may account for the observed non-exponential decay distribution of the EB1 signals. The same reason may also explain the distribution of MCAK.

      (4) We agree with the reviewer’s suggestion that altering microtubule growth rate is a valid and effective approach to regulate the EB cap length. However, the conclusion that MCAK binds to the EB region is supported by three lines of evidence: (1) the localization of MCAK at the ends of microtubules, (2) new experimental data showing that MCAK binds to the proximal end of the XMAP215 site, and (3) the tendency of MCAK to bind GTPγS microtubules, similar to EB1. Based on these findings, we did not pursue additional experiments to modify the length of the EB cap.

      (2) Even if MCAK indeed binds behind XMAP215, there is no evidence that this region is defined by the GDP-Pi nucleotide state; it could still be curved protofilaments. GTPyS is an analogue of GTP - to what extent GTPyS microtubules exactly mimic the GDP-Pi-tubulin state remains controversial. Furthermore, nucleotide sensing for EB is thought to be achieved through its binding at the interface of four tubulin dimers. However MCAK's binding site is distinct, and it has been shown to recognize intradimer tubulin curvature. Thus it is not clear how MCAK would sense the nucleotide state. On the other hand, there is mounting evidence that the morphology of the growing microtubule end can be highly variable, and that curved protofilaments may be protruding off the growing ends for tens of nanometers or more, previously observed both by EM as well as by fluorescence (e.g. Mcintosh, Moores, Chretien, Odde, Gardner, Akhmanova, Hancock, Zanic labs). Thus, to establish that MCAK indeed localizes along the closed lattice, EM approaches should be used.

      First, we conducted additional experiments that demonstrate MCAK indeed binds behind XMAP215, supporting the conclusion that MCAK interacts with the EB cap (please see Fig. 2 in the revised manuscript). Second, our argument that MCAK preferentially binds to GDP-Pi tubulin is based on two observations: (1) the binding regions of MCAK overlap with those of EB1, and (2) MCAK preferentially binds to GTPγS microtubules, which are considered a close analogue of GDP-Pi tubulin. Third, understanding the structural basis of how MCAK senses the nucleotide state of tubulin is beyond the scope of the present study. However, inspired by the reviewer’s suggestion, we looked into the structure of the MCAK-tubulin complex. The L2 loop of MCAK makes direct contact with the interdimer interface (Trofimova et al., 2018; Wang et al., 2017), which could provide a structural basis for recognizing the changes induced by GTP hydrolysis. While this remains a hypothesis, it is certainly a promising direction for future research. Forth, we agree with the reviewer that an EM approach would be ideal for establishing that MCAK localizes along the closed lattice. However, this is not the focus of the current study. Instead, we argue that MCAK binds to the EB cap, where at least some lateral interactions are likely to have formed.

      (3) The physiological relevance of the study is rather questionable: MCAK has been previously established to be able to both diffuse along the microtubule lattice (e.g. Helenius et al.) as well as hitchhike on EBs (Gouveia et al.). Given the established localization of EBs to growing microtubule ends in cells, and apparently higher affinity of MCAK for EB vs. the microtubule end itself (although direct comparisons with the literature have not been reported here), the relevance of MCAK's autonomous binding to dynamic microtubule ends is dubious.

      We thank the reviewer for raising the importance of physiological relevance. Please refer to our response to the comment No.1 of reviewer 1. Briefly, we think that the end-binding affinity of MCAK makes a significant contribution for its cellular functions. To elucidate this concept, we now use a simple model shown in Supplementary Appendix-2 (see pages 49-51, lines 1246-1316). In this model, we simplified MCAK and EB1 binding to microtubule ends by considering only these two proteins while neglecting other factors (e.g. XMAP215). Specifically, we considered two scenarios: one in which both proteins freely diffuse in the cytoplasm and another where MCAK is localized to specific cellular structures, such as the centrosome or centromere. Based on the modeling results, we argue that MCAK's functional impact at microtubule ends derives both from its intrinsic end-binding capacity and its ability to strengthen the EB1-mediated end association pathway.

      (4) Finally, the study seriously lacks discussion of and comparison with the existing literature on this topic. There are major omissions in citing relevant literature, such as e.g. landmark study by Kinoshita et al. Science 2001. Several findings reported here directly contradict previous findings in the literature. Direct comparison with e.g. Gouveia et al findings, Helenius et al. findings, and others need to be included. For example, Gouveia et al reported that EB is necessary for MCAK plus-end-tracking in vitro (please see Figure 1 of their manuscript). The authors should discuss how they reconcile the differences in their findings when compared to this earlier study.

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful suggestion. In the revised manuscript, we have updated the text description and included comparative discussions with other relevant studies in the Discussion section. Specifically, we added comparisons with the research on XMAP215 in page 14, lines 459-472 (Barr and Gergely, 2008; Kinoshita et al., 2001; Tournebize et al., 2000). Additionally, we have compared our findings with those of Gouveia et al. and Helenius et al. regarding MCAK's preference for binding microtubule ends in page 6, lines 145-157 and page 13, 408-441, respectively (Gouveia et al., 2010; Helenius et al., 2006).

      Additional specific comments:

      Figure 1

      Gouveia et al. (Figure 1) reported that MCAK does not autonomously preferentially localize to growing tips. Specifically, Gouveia et al. found equal association rates of MCAK to both the lattice and the tip in the presence of EB3delT, an EB3 construct that does not directly interact with MCAK. How can these findings be reconciled with the results presented here?

      We are uncertain why there was no observed difference in the on-rates to the lattice and the end in the study by Gouveia et al. Even when considering only the known affinity of MCAK for curved protofilaments at the distal tip of growing microtubules, we would still expect to observe an end-binding preference. After carefully comparing the experimental conditions, we nevertheless identified some differences. First, we used a 160 nm tip size to calculate the on-rate (k<sub>on</sub>), whereas Gouveia et al. used a 450 nm tip. Using a longer tip size would naturally lead to a smaller(k<sub>on</sub>) value. Note that we chose 160 nm for several reasons: (i) a previous cryo-electron tomography study has elucidated that the sheet structures of dynamic microtubule ends have an average length of around 180 nm (Guesdon et al., 2016); (ii) Analysis of fluorescence signals at dynamic microtubule ends has demonstrated that the taper length at the microtubule end is less than 180 nm (Maurer et al., 2014); (iii) in the present study, we estimated that the length of MCAK's end-binding region is approximately 160 nm. Second, in Gouveia et al., single-molecule binding events were recorded in the presence of 75 nM EB3ΔT, which could potentially create a crowded environment at the tip, reducing MCAK binding. Third, as mentioned in our response to Reviewer 1, we took great care to minimize the interference from purification tags (e.g., His-tag) by ensuring their complete removal during protein preparation. Previous studies reported that retaining the His-tag of MAPs led to a significant increase in binding for microtubules (Maurer et al., 2011; Zhu et al., 2009). We believe that some of the factors mentioned above, or their combined effects, may account for the differences in these two observations.

      1C shows the decay of tubulin signal over several hundred nm - should show individual traces? How aligned? Doesn't this long decay suggest protruding protofilaments? (E.g. Odde/Gardner work).

      (1) In the revised manuscript, we now show individual traces (e.g. in Fig. 1B and Fig. 2A). The average trace for tubulin signal with standard deviation was shown in Fig. 2C.

      (2) The microtubule lattice was considered as a Gaussian wall and its end as a half-Gaussian in every frame. Use the peak position of the half-Gaussian of every frame to align and average microtubule end signals, during the dwell time. The average microtubule ends' half-Gaussion peak used as a reference to measure the intensity profile of individual single-molecule binding event in every frame (see page18, lines 607-624).

      (3) We think that the decay of tubulin signal results from the convolution of the tapered end structure and the point spread function. In the revised manuscript, we have updated the Figures to provide unprocessed original data in Fig. 1B and Fig. 2A.

      Please show absolute numbers of measurements in 1C (rather than normalized distribution only).

      In the revised manuscript, we have included the raw data for both tubulin and MCAK signals as part of the methods description. In Fig. 1, using normalized values allows for the simultaneous representation of microtubule and protein signals on a unified graph.

      How do the results in 1D-G compare with the previous literature? Particularly comparison of on-rates between this study and the Gouveia et al? Assuming 1 um = 1625 dimers, it appears that in the presence of EB3, the on-rate of MCAK to the tips reported in Gouveia et al. is an order of magnitude higher than reported here in the absence of EB3 (4.3 x 10E-4 vs. 2 x 10E-5). If so, and given the robust presence of EB proteins at growing microtubule ends in cells, this would invalidate the potential physiological relevance of the current study. Note that the dwell times measured in Gouveia et al. are also longer than those measured here.

      Note that in Gouveia et al, the concentration of mCherry-EB3 was 75 nM, about 187.5 times higher than that of MCAK (0.4 nM). The relative concentrations of these two proteins are not always the case in cells. Regarding the physiological relevance of the end-binding affinity of MCAK itself, please refer to our response to the point No.1 of Reviewer 1.

      Notably, Helenius et al reported a diffusion constant for MCAK of 0.38 um^2/s, which is more than an order of magnitude higher than reported here. The authors should comment on this!

      In the revised manuscript, we have provided an explanation for the difference in diffusion coefficient. Please see page 6, line 142-157. In short, low salt condition facilitates rapid diffusion of MCAK.

      Figure 2:

      This figure is critical and really depends on the analysis of the tubulin signal. Note significant variability in tubulin signal between presented examples in 2A. Also, while 2C looks qualitatively similar, there appears to be significant variability over the several hundred nm from the tip along the lattice. This is the crucial region; statistical significance testing should be presented. More detailed info, including SDs etc. is necessary.

      In the revised manuscript, we have provided raw data in Fig. 1B and Fig. 2A. Additionally, we have provided statistical analysis on the tubulin signals (Fig. 2C) and performed significance test. Please see page 5, lines 111-116 and page 7, lines 179-183 for detailed descriptions.

      Insights into the morphology of microtubule ends based on TIRF imaging have been previously gained in the literature, with reports of extended tip structures/protruding protofilaments (see e.g. Coombes et al. Cur Bio 2013, based on the methods of Demchouk et al. 2011). Such analysis should be performed here as well, if we are to conclude that nucleotide state alone, as opposed to the end morphology, specifies MCAK's tip localization.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion and agree that it provides a valid optical microscopy-based approach for estimating microtubule end morphology. However, this method did not establish a direct correlation between microtubule end morphology and tubulin nucleotide status. Therefore, we think that refining the measurement of microtubule end morphology will not necessarily provide more information to the understanding of tubulin nucleotide status at MCAK binding sites. Based on the available data in the present study, there are two main pieces of evidence supporting the idea that MCAK can sense tubulin nucleotide status: (1) the binding regions of MCAK and EB overlap significantly, and (2) MCAK shows a clear preference for binding to GTPγS microtubules, similar to EB1 (we provide a new control to support this, Fig. s4). Of course, we do not consider this to be a perfect set of evidence. As the reviewer has pointed out here and in other suggestions, future work should aim to further distinguish the nucleotide status of tubulin in the dynamic versus non-dynamic regions at the ends of microtubules, and to investigate the structural basis by which MCAK recognizes tubulin nucleotide status.

      EB comet profile should be clearly reproduced. MCAK should follow the comet profile.

      Please see our 3<sup>rd</sup> response to the point 1 of this reviewer.

      The conclusion that the MCAK binding region is larger than XMAP215 is not firm, based on the data presented. The authors state that 'the binding region of MCAK was longer than that of XMAP215'. What is the exact width of the region of the XMAP215 localization and how much longer is the MCAK end-binding region? Is this statistically significant?

      We have revised this part in the revised manuscript (page 6, lines 167-172). The position probability distributions of MCAK and XMAP215 were significantly different (K-S test, p< 10<sup>-5</sup>), and the binding region of MCAK (FWHM=185 nm) was significantly longer than that of XMAP215 (FWHM=123 nm).

      MCAK localization with AMPPNP should also be performed here. Even low concentrations of MCAK have been shown to induce microtubule catastrophe/end depolymerization. This will dramatically affect microtubule end morphology, and thus apparent positioning of MCAK at the end.

      In the end positioning experiment, we used a low concentration of MCAK (1 nM). Under this condition, microtubule dynamics remained unchanged, and the morphology of the microtubule ends was comparable across different conditions (with EB1, MCAK or XMAP215). Additionally, in the revised manuscript, we present a new experiment in which we recorded the localization of both MCAK and XMAP215 on the same microtubule. The results support the conclusion regarding their relative localization: most MCAK is found at the proximal end of the XMAP215 binding region, while approximately 15% of MCAK is located within the XMAP215 binding region. Please see Fig. 2D-E and page 7, lines 184-197 for the corresponding descriptions.

      Figure 3:

      For clearer presentation, projections showing two microtubule lattice types on the same image (in e.g. two different colors) should be shown first without MCAK, and then with MCAK.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have adjusted the figure accordingly. Please see Fig. 4 in the revised manuscript.

      Please comment on absolute intensity values - scales seem to be incredibly variable.

      The fluorescence value presented here is the result of multiple images being summed. Therefore, the difference in absolute values is influenced not only by the binding affinity of MCAK in different states to microtubules, but also by the number of images used. In this analysis, we are not comparing MCAK in different states, but rather evaluating the binding ability of MCAK in the same state on different types of microtubules.

      Given that the authors conclude that MCAK binding mimics that of EB, EB intensity measurements and ratios on different lattice substrates should be performed as a positive control.

      We performed additional experiments with EB1, in the revised manuscript, we provide the data as a positive control (please see Fig. s4).

      Figure 4:

      MCAK-nucleotide dependence of GMPCPP microtubule-end binding has been previously established (see e.g. Helenius et al, others?) - what is new here? Need to discuss the literature. This would be more appropriate as a supplemental figure?

      In the present study, we reproduced the GMPCPP microtubule-end binding of MCAK in the AMPPNP state, as shown in several previous reports (Desai et al., 1999; Hertzer et al., 2006). Here, we also quantified the end to lattice binding preference, and our results showed that the nucleotide state-dependence shows the same trend as the binding preference of MCAK to the growing microtubule ends. Therefore, we prefer to keep this figure in the main text (Fig. 5).

      Figure 5:

      Please note that both MCAK mutants show an additional two orders of magnitude lower microtubule binding on-rates when compared to wt MCAK. This makes the analysis of preferential binding substrate for these mutants dubious.

      We agreed with this point. We have rewritten this part. Please see page 10, lines 295-327, in the revised manuscript.

      Figure 6:

      Combined effects of XMAP215 and XKCM1 (MCAK) have been previously explored in the landmark study by Kinoshita et al. Science 2001, which should be cited and discussed. Also note that Moriwaki et al. JCB 2016 explored the combined effects of XMA215 and MCAK - which should be discussed here and compared to the current results.

      We agree with the reviewer. We have revised the discussion on this part. Please see page 11, lines 329-342 and page 14, lines 459-472 in the revised manuscript.

      Please report quantification for growth rate and lifetime.

      In the revised manuscript, we provide all these data. Please see pages 11-12, lines 343-374.

      To obtain any new quantitative information on the combined effects of the two proteins, at the very minimum, the authors should perform a titration in protein concentration.

      We agree with the reviewer on this point. In our pilot experiments, we performed titration experiments to determine the appropriate concentrations of MCAK and XMAP215, respectively. We selected 50 nM for XMAP215, as it clearly enhances the growth rate and exhibits a mild promoting effect on catastrophe—two key effects of XMAP215 reported in previous studies (Brouhard et al., 2008; Farmer et al., 2021). Reducing the XMAP215 concentration eliminates the catastrophe-promoting effect, while increasing it would not much enhance the growth rate. For MCAK, we chose 20 nM, as it effectively promotes catastrophe; increasing the concentration beyond this point leads to no microtubule growth, at least in the MCAK-only condition. If there’s no microtubule growth, it would be difficult to quantify the parameters of microtubule dynamics, hindering a clear comparison of the combined versus individual effects. Therefore, we think that the concentrations used in this study are appropriate and representative. In the revised manuscript, we make this point clearer (see pages 11 and lines 329-342).

      Finally, the writing could be improved for overall clarity.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this. In the revised manuscript, we conducted a thorough revision and review of the text.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The authors revisit an old question of how MCAK goes to microtubule ends, partially answered by many groups over the years. The authors seem to have omitted the literature on MCAK in the past 10-15 years. The novelty is limited due to what has previously been done on the question. Previous work showed MCAK targets to microtubule plus-ends in cells through association with EB proteins and Kif18b (work from Wordeman, Medema, Walczak, Welburn, Akhmanova) but none of their work is cited.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. Some of the referenced work has already been cited in our manuscript, such as studies on the interaction between MCAK and EB1. However, other relevant literature had not been properly cited. In the revised manuscript, we have added further discussion on this topic in the context of existing findings. Please refer to pages 3-4, lines 68-85, and pages 13, lines 425-441.

      It is not obvious in the paper that these in vitro studies only reveal microtubule end targeting, rather than plus end targeting. MCAK diffuses on the lattice to both ends and its conformation and association with the lattice and ends has also been addressed by other groups-not cited here. I want to particularly highlight the work from Friel's lab where they identified a CDK phosphomimetic mutant close to helix4 which reduces the end preference of MCAK. This residue is very close to the one mutated in this study and is highly relevant because it is a site that is phosphorylated in vivo. This study and the mutant produced here suggest a charge-based recognition of the end of microtubules.

      Here the authors analyze this MCAK recognition of the lattice and microtubule ends, with different nucleotide states of MCAK and in the presence of different nucleotide states for the microtubule lattice. The main conclusion is that MCAK affinity for microtubules varies in the presence of different nucleotides (ATP and analogs) which was partially known already. How different nucleotide states of the microtubule lattice influence MCAK binding is novel. This information will be interesting to researchers working on the mechanism of motors and microtubules. However, there are some issues with some experiments. In the paper, the authors say they measure MCAK residency of growing end microtubules, but in the kymographs, the microtubules don't appear dynamic - in addition, in Figure 1A, MCAK is at microtubule ends and does not cause depolymerization. I would have expected to see depolymerization of the microtubule after MCAK targeting. The MCAK mutants are not well characterized. Do they still have ATPase activity? Are they folded? Can the authors also highlight T537 and discuss this?

      Finally, a few experiments are done with MCAK and XMAP215, after the authors say they have demonstrated the binding sites overlap. The data supporting this statement were not obvious and the conclusions that the effect of the two molecules are additive would argue against competing binding sites. Overall, while there are some interesting quantitative measurements of MCAK on microtubules - in particular in relation to the nucleotide state of the microtubule lattice - the insights into end-recognition are modest and do not address or discuss how it might happen in cells. Often the number of events is not recorded. Histograms with large SEM bars are presented, so it is hard to get a good idea of data distribution and robustness. Figures lack annotations. This compromises therefore their quantifications and conclusions. The discussion was hard to follow and needs streamlining, as well as putting their work in the context of what is known from other groups who produced work on this in the past few years.

      We thank the reviewer for the comments. Regarding the physiological relevance of the end-binding of MCAK itself, please refer to our response to the point No.1 of reviewer 1. Moreover, as we feel that other suggestions are more thoroughly expressed in the following comments for authors, we will provide the responses in the corresponding sections, as shown below.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Why, on dynamic microtubules, is MCAK at microtubule plus ends and does not cause a catastrophe?

      At this concentration (10 nM MCAK with 16 mM tubulin in Fig. 1; 1 nM MCAK with 12 mM tubulin in Fig. 2), MCAK has little effect on microtubule dynamics in our experiments. Using TIRFM, we were able to observe individual MCAK binding events. Based on these observations, we think that in the current experimental condition, a single binding event of MCAK is insufficient to induce microtubule catastrophe; rather, it likely requires cumulative changes resulting from multiple binding events.

      Do the MCAK mutants still have ATPase activity?

      The ATPase activities of MCAK<sup>K525A</sup> and MCAK<sup>V298S</sup> are both reduced to about 1/3 of the wild-type (Fig. s6).

      The intensities of GFP are not all the same on the microtubule lattice (eg 1A). See blue and white arrowheads. The authors could be looking at multiple molecules of GFP-MCAK instead of single dimers. How do they account for this possibility?

      In the revised manuscript, we provide the gel filtration result of the purified MCAK, and the position of the peak corresponds to ~220 kDa, demonstrating that the purified MCAK in solution is dimeric (please see Fig.s1 and page 5, lines 101-103). We measured the fluorescence intensity of each binding event. A probability distribution of these intensities was then constructed and fitted with a Gaussian function. A binding event was considered to correspond to a single molecule if its intensity fell within μ±2σ of the distribution. The details of the single-molecule screening process are provided in the revised manuscript (see page 17, lines 574-583).

      In addition, we also measured the fluorescence intensity of both MCAK<sup>sN+M</sup> and MCAK. MCAK<sup>sN+M</sup> is a monomeric mutant that contains the neck domain and motor domain (Wang et al., 2012). The average intensity of MCAK<sup>sN+M</sup> is 196 A.U., about 65 % of that of MCAK (300 A.U.), suggesting that MCAK is a dimer (see Fig. s1). Moreover, we think that some of the dim signals may result from stochastic background noise, while others likely represent transient bindings of MCAK. The exposure time in our experiments was approximately 0.05 seconds; if the binding duration were shorter than this, the signal would be lower. It is important to note that in this study, we specifically selected binding events lasting at least 2 consecutive frames, meaning transient binding events were not included. This point has been clarified in the Methods section (see page 17, lines 568-569 and lines 574-583).

      Could the authors provide a kymograph of an MT growing, in the presence of MCAK+AMPPNP? Can MCAK track the cap?

      Under single-molecule conditions, we observed a single MCAK molecule briefly binding to the end of the microtubule. However, we did not record if MCAK at high concentrations could track microtubule ends under AMPPNP conditions.

      In the experiments in Figure 6, the authors should also show the localization of MCAK and XMAP215 at microtubule plus ends in their kymographs to show the two molecules overlap.

      Regarding the relative localization of XMAP215 and MCAK, we conducted additional experiments to record their colocalization simultaneously at the same microtubule end. Our results show that MCAK predominantly binds behind XMAP215, with 14.5% of MCAK binding within the XMAP215 binding region. Please see Fig. 2.D-E and page 7, lines 184-197 in the revised manuscript. However, we argue that the effects of XMAP215 and MCAK are additive, and their binding sites do not necessarily need to overlap for these effects to occur.

      The authors do not report what statistical tests are done in their graphs, and one concern is over error propagation of their data. Instead of bar graphs, showing the data points would be helpful.

      We have now shown all data points in the revised manuscript.

      MCAK+AMPPNP accumulates at microtubule ends. Appropriate quotes from previous work should be provided.

      We have made the revisions accordingly. Please see page 9, lines 273-276.

      Controls are missing. An SEC profile for all purified proteins should be presented. Also, the authors need to explain if they report the dimeric or monomeric concentration of MCAK, XMAP215, etc...

      We have provided the gel filtration result for all purified proteins in the revised manuscript (Fig.s1). Moreover, we now make it clear that the concentrations of MCAK and EB1 are monomeric concentration. Please see the legend for Fig. 1, line 893 in the revised manuscript.

      Figure 1: the microtubules don't look dynamic at all. This is also why the authors can record MCAK at microtubule ends, because their structure is not changing.

      The microtubules are dynamic, but they may appear non-dynamic due to the relatively slow growth rate and the high frame rate at which we are recording. We propose that individual binding events of MCAK induce structural changes at the nanoscopic or molecular scale, which are not detectable using TIRFM.

      I recommend the authors measure the Kon and Koff for single GFP-MCAK mutant molecules and provide the information alongside their normalized and averaged binding intensities of GFP-MCAK in Fig 5. Showing data points instead of bar graphs would be better.

      (1) We measured k<sub>on</sub> and dwell time for mutants at growing microtubule end. However, we did not perform single-molecule tracking for MCAK’s binding on stabilized microtubules. This is mainly because the superimposed signal on the stable microtubule already indicates the changes in the mutant's binding affinity to different microtubule structures, and moreover, the binding of the mutants is highly transient, making accurate single-molecule tracking and calculations difficult.

      (2) In the revised figure, we have included the data points in all plots.

      When discussing how Kinesin-13 interacts with the lattice, the authors should quote the papers that report the organization of full-length Kinesin-13 on tubulin heterodimers: Trofimova et al, 2018; McHugh et al 2019; Benoit et al, 2018. It would reinforce their model and account for the full-length protein, rather than just the motor domain.

      We thank the suggestion for the reviewer. In our manuscript, we have cited papers on full-length Kinesin-13 to discuss the interaction between MCAK and microtubule end-curved structure. Additionally, we have utilized the MCAK-tubulin crystal structure (PDB ID: 5MIO) in Fig. 6, as it depicts a human MCAK, which is consistent with the protein used in our study. This structure illustrates the interaction sites between MCAK and tubulin dimer, guiding our mutation studies on specific residues. Thus, we prefer to use the structure (PDB ID: 5MIO) in Fig.6.

      Figure 5A. What type of model is this? A PDB code is mentioned. Is this from an X-ray structure? If so, mention it.

      We have now included the structural information in the Figure legend (see page 37, lines 1045).

      Figure 5B. It is not possible to distinguish the different microtubule lattices (GTPyS, GDP, and GMPCPP). The experiment needs to be better labelled.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have now rearranged the figure for better clarity (see Fig. 6).

      "Figure 5D: what are the statistical tests? I don't understand " The statistical comparisons were made versus the corresponding value of 848 GFP-MCAK".

      We have made this point clearer in the revised manuscript (see pages 38, line 1078-1080).

      What is the "EB cap"? This needs explaining.

      We provide this explanation for this, please see page 4, lines 87-89 in the revised manuscript.

      Work from Friel and co-workers showed MCAK T537E did not have depolymerizing activity and a reduced affinity for microtubule ends. The work of the authors should be discussed with respect to this previously published work.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. In the revised manuscript, we have added discussions on this (see page 10, lines 303-307).

      The concentration of protein used in the assays is not always described.

      We have checked throughout the manuscript and made revisions accordingly.

      "Having revealed the novel binding sites of MCAK in dynamic microtubule ends " should be on "we wondered how MCAK may work ..with EB1". This is not addressed so should be removed. Instead, they can quote the work from Akhmanova's lab. Realistically this section should be rephrased as there are other plus-end targeting molecules that compete with MCAK, not just XMAP215 and EB1.

      We have rephrased this section as suggested by this reviewer to be more specific. Please see page 11, lines 329-342.

      What is AMPCPP?

      It should be “AMPPNP”

      Typos in Figure 5.

      Corrected

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      We thank the reviewer for his/her very positive comments.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      We thank the reviewer for his/her positive evaluation. We plan to add RNAseq data of yeast wild-type and JDP mutant strains as more direct readout for the role of Apj1 in controlling Hsf1 activity. We agree with the reviewer that our study includes one major finding: the central role of Apj1 in controlling the attenuation phase of the heat shock response. In accordance with the reviewer we consider this finding highly relevant and interesting for a broad readership. We agree that additional studies are now necessary to mechanistically dissect how the diverse JDPs support Hsp70 in controlling Hsf1 activity. We believe that such analysis should be part of an independent study but we will indicate this aspect as part of an outlook in the discussion section of a revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      We thank the reviewer for his/her suggestions. We agree that it is sometimes difficult to distinguish direct effects of JDP mutants on heat shock regulation from indirect ones, which can result from the accumulation of misfolded proteins that titrate Hsp70 capacity. We also agree that an in vitro reconstitution of Hsf1 displacement from DNA by Apj1/Hsp70 will be important, also to dissect Apj1 function mechanistically. We will add this point as outlook to the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) Can the authors submit the raw translatome data to a standard repository? Also, the data should be summarized in a supplemental Excel table. 

      We submitted the raw translatome data to the NCBI Gene Expression Omnibus and added the analyzed data sets (shown in Figures 1 and 5) as Supplementary Tables S4/S5 (excel sheets). We additionally included RNAseq analysis of yeast WT and JDP mutants set grown at 25°C, complementing and confirming our former translatome analysis (new Figure 5, Figure Supplement 2). Respective transcriptome raw data were also deposited at the NCBI Gene Expression Omnibus and analyzed data are available as Supplementary Table S7.

      (2) MW indicators need to be added to the Western Blot figures. 

      We added molecular weight markers to the Western Blot figures.

      (3) Can the authors please include the sequences of the primers used in all the RT-qPCR experiments? They mention they are in the supplemental information, but I couldn't locate them. 

      We added the sequences of the RT-qPCR primers as Supplementary Table S4.

      (4) Given the clear mechanism proposed, it would be nice if the authors could provide a nice summary figure. 

      We followed the suggestion of the reviewer and illustrate our main finding as new Figure 7.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) As mentioned above, a co-IP experiment between Hsf1 and Ssa1/2 in APJ1 and apj1∆ cells, utilizing Hsf1 alleles with and without the two known binding sites, would cement the assignment of Apj1 in the Hsf1 regulatory circuit. 

      We agree with the reviewer that Hsf1-Ssa1/2 pulldown experiments, as done by Pincus and colleagues (1), will further specify the role of Apj1 in targeting Hsp70 to Hsf1 during the attenuation phase of the heat shock response. We have tried extensively such pulldown experiments to document dissociation of Ssa1/2 from Hsf1 upon heat shock in yeast wild-type cells. While we could specifically detect Ssa1/2 upon Hsf-HA1 pulldown, our results after heat shock were highly variable and inconclusive and did not allow us to probe for a role of Apj1 or the two known Ssa1/2 binding sites in the phase-specific targeting. We now discuss the potential roles of the two distinct Ssa1/2 binding sites for phase-specific regulation of Hsf1 activity in the revised manuscript (page 12, lanes 17-21).

      (2) Experiments in Figure 3 nicely localize CHIP reactions with known HSEs. A final confirmatory experiment utilizing a mutated HSE (another classic experiment in the field) would cement this finding and validate the motif and reporter-based analysis. 

      We thank the reviewer for this meaningful suggestions. We have done something like this by using the non-Hsf1 regulated gene BUD3, which lacks HSEs, as reference. We engineered a counterpart, termed “BUD3 HS-UAS”, which bears inserted HSEs, derived from the native UAS of HSP82, within the BUD3 UAS. We show that BUD3<sup>+</sup> lacking HSEs is not occupied by Hsf1 and Apj1 under either non-stress or heat shock conditions while BUD3-HSE is clearly occupied under both, paralleling Hsf1 and Apj1 occupancy of HSP82 (Figure 3E). We have renamed the engineered allele to “BUD3-HSE” to clarify the experimental design and output.

      (3) Page 8 - the ydj1-4xcga allele is introduced without explaining why it's needed, since ydj1∆ cells are viable. The authors should acknowledge the latter fact, then justify why the RQC depletion approach is preferred. Especially since the ydj1∆ mutant appears in Figure 5B. 

      ydj1∆ cells are viable, yet they grow extremely slowly at 25°C and hardly at 30°C,  making them difficult to handle. The RQC-mediated depletion of Ydj1 in ydj1-4xcga cells allows for solid growth at 30°C, facilitating strain handling and analysis of Ydj1 function. Importantly, ydj1-4xcga cells are still temperature-sensitive and exhibit the same deregulation of the heat shock response upon combination with apj1D as observed for ydj1∆ cells. Thus ydj1 knockout and knockdown cells do not differ in the relevant phenotypes reported here and we performed most of the analysis with  ydj1-4xcga cells due to their growth advantage. We added a respective explanation to the text (page 8, lanes 13-14) .

      (4) The authors raise the possibility that Sis1, Apj1, and Ydj1 may all be competing for access to Ssa1/2 at different phases of the HSR, and that access may be dictated by conformational changes in Hsf1. Given that there are at least two known Hsp70 binding sites that have negative regulatory activity in Hsf1, the possibility that domain-specific association governs the different roles should be considered. It is also unclear how the JDPs are associating with Hsf1 differentially if all binding is through Ssa1/2. 

      We thank the reviewer for the comment and will add the possibility of specific roles of the identified Hsp70 binding sites in regulating Hsf1 activity at the different phases of the heat shock response to the discussion section. Binding of Ssa1/2 to substrates (including Hsf1) is dependent on J-domain proteins (JDPs), which differ in substrate specificity. It is tempting to speculate that the distinct JDPs recognize different sites in Hsf1 and are responsible for mediating the specific binding of Ssa1/2 to either N- or C-terminal sites in Hsf1. Thus, the specific binding of a JDP to Hsf1 might dictate the binding to Ssa1/2 to either binding site. We discuss this aspect in the revised manuscript (page 12, lanes 17-21).

      (5) Figure 6 - temperature sensitivity of hsf1 and ydj1 mutants has been linked to defects in the cell wall integrity pathway rather than general proteostasis collapse. This is easily tested via plating on osmotically supportive media (i.e., 1M sorbitol) and should be done throughout Figure 6 to properly interpret the results.

      Our data indicate proteostasis breakdown in ydj1 cells by showing strongly altered localization of Sis1-GFP, pointing to massive protein aggregation (Figure 6 – Figure Supplement  1D).

      We followed the suggestion of the reviewer and performed spot tests in presence of 1 M sorbitol (see figure below). The presence of sorbitol is improving growth of ydj1-4xcga mutant cells at increased temperatures, in agreement with the remark of the reviewer. We, however, do not think that growth rescue by sorbitol is pointing to specific defects of the ydj1 mutant in cell wall integrity. Sorbitol functions as a chemical chaperone and has been shown to have protective effects on cellular proteostasis and to rescue phenotypes of diverse point mutants in yeast cells by facilitating folding of the respective mutant proteins and suppressing their aggregation (2-4). Thus sorbitol can broadly restore proteostasis, which can also explain its effects on growth of ydj1 mutants at increased temperatures. Therefore the readout of the spot test with sorbitol is not unambiguous and we therefore prefer not showing it in the manuscript.

      Author response image 1.

      Serial dilutions of indicated yeast strains were spotted on YPD plates without and with 1 M sorbitol and incubated at indicated temperatures for 2 days.<br />

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) Line 154: Can the authors, by analysis, offer an explanation for why HSR attenuation varies between genes for the sis1-4xcga strain? Is it, for example, a consequence of that a hypomorph and not a knock is used, a mRNA turnover issue, or that Hsf1 has different affinities for the HSEs in the promoters? 

      We used the sis1-4xcga knock-down strain because Sis1 is essential for yeast viability. The point raised by the reviewer is highly valid and we extensively thought about the diverse consequences of Sis1 depletion on levels of e.g. translated BTN2 (minor impact) and HSP104 (strong impact) mRNA. We meanwhile performed transcriptome analysis and confirmed the specific impact of Sis1 depletion on HSP104 mRNA levels, while BTN2 mRNA levels remained much less affected (new Figure 5 - Figure Supplement 2A/B). We compared numbers and spacings of HSEs in the respective target genes but could not identify obvious differences. Hsf1 occupancy within the UAS region of both BTN2 and HSP104 is very comparable at three different time points of a 39°C heat shock: 0, 5 and 120 min, arguing against different Hsf1 affinities to the respective HSEs (5). The molecular basis for the target-specific derepression upon Sis1 depletion thus remains to be explored. We added a respective comment to the revised version of the manuscript (page 12, lanes 3-8) .

      (2) Line 194: The analysis of ChIP-seq is not very elaborated in its presentation. How specific is this interaction? Can it be ruled out by analysis that it is simply the highly expressed genes after the HS that lead to Apj1 appearing there? More generally: Can the data in the main figure be presented to give a more unbiased genome-wide view of the results?

      We overall observed a low number of Apj1 binding events in the UAS of genes. The interaction of Apj1 with HSEs is specific as we do not observe Apj1 binding to the UAS of well-expressed non-heat shock genes. Similarly, Apj1 does not bind to ARS504 (Figure S3 – Figure Supplement 1). We extended the description of our ChIP-seq analysis procedures leading to the identification of HSEs as Apj1 target sites to make it easier to understand the data analysis. We additionally re-analysed the two Apj1 binding peaks that did not reveal an HSE in our original analysis. Using a modified setting we can identify a slightly degenerated HSE in the promoter region of the two genes (TMA10, RIE1) and changed Figure 3C accordingly. Notably, TMA10 is a known target gene of Hsf1. The expanded analysis is further documenting the specificity of the Apj1 binding peaks.

      (3) Line 215. Figure 3. The clear anticorrelation is puzzling. Presumably, Apj1 binds Hsf1 as a substrate, and then a straight correlation is expected: When Hsf1 substrate levels decrease at the promoters, also Apj1 signal is predicted to decrease. What explanations could there be for this? Is it, for example, that Hsf1 is not always available as a substrate on every promoter, or is Apj1 tied up elsewhere in the cell/nucleus early after HS? 

      We propose that Apj1 binds HSE-bound Hsf1 only after clearance of nuclear inclusions, which form upon heat stress. Apj1 thereby couples the restoration of nuclear proteostasis to the attenuation of the heat shock response. This explains the delayed binding of Apj1 to HSEs (via Hsf1), while Hsf1 shows highest binding upon activation of the heat shock response (early timepoints). Notably, the binding efficiency of Hsf1 and Apj1 (% input) largely differ, as we determine strong binding of Hsf1 five min post heat shock (30-40% of input), whereas maximal 3-4% of the input is pulled down with Apj1 (60 min post heat shock) (Figure 3D). Even at this late timepoint 10-20% of the input is pulled down with Hsf1. The diverse kinetics and pulldown efficiencies suggest that Apj1 displaces Hsf1 from HSEs and accordingly Hsf1 stays bound to HSEs in apj1D cells (Figure 4). This activity of Apj1 explains the anti-correlation: increased targeting of Apj1 to HSE-bound Hsf1 will lower the absolute levels of HSE-bound Hsf1. What we observe in the ChIP experiment at the individual timepoints is a snapshot of this reaction. Accordingly, at the last timepoint (120 min after heat shock ) analyzed, we observe low binding of both Hsf1 and Apj1 as the heat shock response has been shut down.

      (4) Line 253: "Sis-depleted".  

      We have corrected the mistake.

      (5) Line 332: Fig. 6C SIS1 OE from pRS315. A YIP would have been better, 20% of the cells will typically not express a protein with a CEN/ARS of the pRS-series so the Sis1 overexpression phenotype may be underestimated and this may impact on the interpretation. 

      We agree with the reviewer that Yeast Integrated Plasmids (YIP) represent the gold standard for complementation assays. We are not aware of a study showing that 20% of cells harboring pRS-plasmids do not express the encoded protein. The results shown in Fig. 8C/D demonstrate that even strong overproduction of Sis1 cannot restore Hsf1 activity control. This interpretation also will not be affected assuming that a certain percentage of these cells do not express Sis1. Nevertheless, we added a comment to the respective section pointing to the possibility that the Sis1 effect might be underestimated due to variations in Sis1 expression (page 11, lanes 15-19).

      (6) Figure 1C. Since n=2, a more transparent way of showing the data is the individual data points. It is used elsewhere in the manuscript, and I recommend it. 

      We agree that showing individual data points can enhance transparency, particularly with small sample sizes. However, the log2 fold change (log2FC) values presented in Figure 1C and other figures derived from ribosome profiling and RNAseq experiments were generated using the DESeq2 package. This DeSeq2 pipeline is widely used in analyzing differential gene expression and known for its statistical robustness. It performs differential expression analysis based on a model that incorporates normalization, dispersion estimation, and shrinkage of fold changes. The pipeline automatically accounts for biological, technical variability, and batch effects, thereby improving the reliability of results. These log2FC values are not directly calculated from log-transformed normalized counts of individual samples but are instead estimated from a fitted model comparing group means. Therefore, the individual values of replicates in DESeq2 log2FC cannot be shown.

      (7) Figure 1D. Please add the number of minutes on the X-axis. Figure legend: "Cycloheximide" is capitalized.  

      We revised the figure and figure legend as recommended.

      (8) Several figure panels: Statistical tests and SD error bars for experiments performed in duplicates simply feel wrong for this reviewer. I do recognize that parts of the community are calculating, in essence, quasi-p-values using parametric methods for experiments with far too low sample numbers, but I recommend not doing so. In my opinion, better to show the two data points and interpret with caution.

      We followed the advice of the reviewer and removed statistical tests for experiments based on duplicates.

      References

      (1) Krakowiak, J., Zheng, X., Patel, N., Feder, Z. A., Anandhakumar, J., Valerius, K. et al. (2018) Hsf1 and Hsp70 constitute a two-component feedback loop that regulates the yeast heat shock response eLife 7,

      (2) Guiberson, N. G. L., Pineda, A., Abramov, D., Kharel, P., Carnazza, K. E., Wragg, R. T. et al. (2018) Mechanism-based rescue of Munc18-1 dysfunction in varied encephalopathies by chemical chaperones Nature communications 9, 3986

      (3) Singh, L. R., Chen, X., Kozich, V., and Kruger, W. D. (2007) Chemical chaperone rescue of mutant human cystathionine beta-synthase Mol Genet Metab 91, 335-342

      (4) Marathe, S., and Bose, T. (2024) Chemical chaperone - sorbitol corrects cohesion and translational defects in the Roberts mutant bioRxiv  10.1101/2024.09.04.6109452024.2009.2004.610945

      (5) Pincus, D., Anandhakumar, J., Thiru, P., Guertin, M. J., Erkine, A. M., and Gross, D. S. (2018) Genetic and epigenetic determinants establish a continuum of Hsf1 occupancy and activity across the yeast genome Mol Biol Cell 29, 3168-3182

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This manuscript assesses the differences between young and aged chondrocytes. Through transcriptomic analysis and further assessments in chondrocytes, GATA4 was found to be increased in aged chondrocyte donors compared to young donors. Subsequent mechanistic analysis with lentiviral vectors, siRNAs, and a small molecule was used to study the role of GATA4 in young and old chondrocytes. Lastly, an in vivo study was used to assess the effect of GATA4 expression on osteoarthritis progression in a DMM mouse model.

      Strengths:

      This work linked the overexpression of GATA4 to NF-kB signaling pathway activation, alterations to the TGF-b signaling pathway, and found that GATA4 increased the progression of OA compared to the DMM control group. This indicates that GATA4 contributes to the onset and progression of OA in aged individuals.

      The authors thank the reviewer for reviewing our manuscript and providing insightful comments.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) A couple of sentences should be added to the introduction, to emphasize the role GATA4 plays, such as the alterations to the TGF-b signaling pathway and the increased activation of the NF-kB pathway. 

      As suggested, we have expanded on these signaling pathways in the Introduction to highlight the known functions of GATA4. Importantly, there was no previous study reporting the roles of GATA4 in regulating TGF-β pathway.

      “Many growth factors contribute to the chondro-supportive environment in the knee joint. Particularly, transforming growth factor-b (TGF-b) plays a key role in maintaining chondrocytes and replenishing ECM loss. However, during OA, TGF-b can induce catabolic processes in chondrocytes, resulting in matrix stiffening, osteophytes, and chondrocyte hypertrophy.[10-12]” (Lines 80-84)

      “Mechanistically, upregulation of GATA4 was shown to increase nuclear factor-kB (NF-kB) pathway activation.[14,15]  NF-κB is thought to amplify and potentially propagate cellular senescence during the aging process through the senescence-associated secretory phenotype (SASP), which could contribute to a low-grade state of chronic inflammation.[16]” (Lines 99-102)

      “When GATA4 was over expressed, we found that there were alterations to the TGF-b signaling pathway and activation of the NF-kB signaling pathway.” (Lines 106-108)

      (2) Figure 1F, the GATA4 histology image should be bigger.

      We have now increased the size of the image in revised Figure 1F.

      (3) Further discussion should be conducted regarding the reasoning as to why GATA4 increases the phosphorylation of SMAD1/5. 

      Thank you. The underlying mechanism of GATA4 activating SMAD1/5 has not been previously investigated. We have now elaborated on this in the discussion and have added more relevant publications.

      “Our study indicated that there was an observed decrease in chondrogenesis and an increase in hypertrophy-related genes following GATA4 overexpression (Figure 2G).” (Lines 572-574)

      “These previous studies and literature review inspired us to explore the potential association between GATA4 levels and the activation of SMAD1/5.” (Lines 587-588)

      “In this study, it was shown that GATA4 was necessary for bone morphogenic protein-6 (BMP-6) mediated IL-6 induction, in which there are multiple GATA binding domains on the IL-6 promoter. This work further showed that GATA4 interacts with SMAD 2,3 and 4.[55] Studies have suggested that BMP pathways and GATA4 work synergistically to regulate SMAD signaling.56 This information indicates that the involvement of GATA4 in the TGF-b signaling pathway is complex and further studies should be conducted to better assess this relationship.” (Lines 594-599)

      (4) More information should be included to clarify why GATA4 is thought to be linked to DNA damage and the pathway that is associated with that. 

      We have now included further information in the discussion to clarify the association between DNA damage and GATA4 upregulation.

      “The study by Kang et al. demonstrated that the suppression of p62 following DNA damage leads to GATA4 accumulation due to the lack of autophagy.13 DNA damage is known to increase with age.71 Therefore, we believe that DNA damage due to aging is a key driver of the upregulation of GATA4 in old chondrocytes.” (Lines 642-646)

      (5) Please add further information regarding the limitations of the animal study conducted in this work and future plans to assess this. 

      We have included more limitations of the animal study that was conducted in this work and have expanded on the future plans to use inducible GATA4 expression in transgenic mouse lines to study the role of GATA4 overexpression in OA onset and progression.

      “Third, during our in vivo work, the intraarticular injection of GATA4 lentivirus was not chondrocyte-specific. Therefore, the injection also allowed for other cell types to overexpress GATA4. Future work should be conducted using transgenic mouse lines for cartilage-specific inducible overexpression or depletion of Gata4 to further investigate the role of GATA4 in chondrocytes.” (666-670)

      (6) In Figure 5, GATA4 should be changed to Gata4 in the graphed portions for consistency. 

      Thanks. We have made the necessary adjustments throughout the manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      (1) While it is convincing that GATA4 expression is elevated in elderly individuals, and that it has a detrimental impact on cartilage health, the authors might want to add further discussion on the variability among individual human donors, especially given the finding that the elevation of GATA4 was not observed in chondrocytes from donor O1 (Figure 1G).

      The authors thank the reviewer for reviewing our manuscript and providing insightful comments.

      As suggested, we have included more discussion on the variability among donors.

      “Although we found that GATA4 was generally increased with aging, some young donors also exhibited increased levels of GATA4, which may be associated with increased DNA damage, as discussed above, or other stressors. Therefore, GATA4 should be used together in conjunction with other aging biomarkers, such as the epigenetic clock [72] to precisely define chondrocyte aging. Future work should examine biological versus chronological aging and epigenetic clock-based assessments to explain the variabilities in GATA4 expression among donors.” (Lines 658-663)

      (2) It might also be worth adding additional discussion on the interplay between senescent chondrocytes and the dysfunctional ECM during aging. As noted by the authors, aging is associated with decreased sGAG content and likely degenerative changes in the collagen II network, so the microniche of chondrocytes, and thus cell-matrix crosstalk through the pericellular matrix, is also altered or impaired. 

      Thank you for this comment. We have included more discussion on the interplay of chondrocyte senescence and dysfunctional ECM during aging, with a specific focus on the microniche of chondrocytes.

      “Additionally, a common hallmark of chondrocyte aging is the alternation of ECM, including composition change [2] and stiffening.[57] ECM stiffness can directly affect chondrocyte phenotype and proliferation, and contribute to OA.[58] A recent study by Fu et al. associated matrix stiffening with the promotion of chondrocyte senescence.[59] Furthermore, matrix stiffening has been associated with modulating the TGF-b signaling pathway.[60-62] Future studies should investigate the potential of matrix stiffening and the effect of GATA4 on pericellular matrix proteins such as decorin[63,64], biglycan, collagen VI and XV, as these proteins assist with the regulation of biochemical interactions and assist with the maintenance of the chondrocyte microenvironment.[65] Herein, the TGF-b signaling pathway can further alter the extracellular microenvironment[62], which could promote cellular senescence and subsequently NF-kB pathway activation.” (Lines 600-610)

      (2) If applicable, please also add Y3 and O3 to Figure S1 for visual comparison across individual donors. 

      As suggested, we added Y3 and O3 to the revised Figure S1 for more visual comparisons across individual donors.

      (3) Figure 3C, the molecular weight labels are off. 

      Thanks. We corrected this mistake.

      (4) Line 438 - Please clarify in text that the highest efficiency of siRNA chosen was siRNA2. 

      As suggested, we added the reason for selecting siRNA2.

      “Several GATA4 siRNAs were tested, and the one with the highest efficiency was selected based off RT-qPCR results, which indicated that siRNA2 treatment induced lowest expression of GATA4.  (Supplementary Figure S6).” (Lines 448-450)

      (5) Did the authors test the timeline of sustained knockdown of GATA4 by siRNA?

      We used a 7-day timepoint of chondrogenesis, and RT-qPCR results demonstrated that there was a downregulation of GATA4 expression at this timepoint (Figure 4). In the current in vitro study, we did not examine the efficacy of GATA4 siRNA for longer than 7 days.

      Reviewer #3( Public review):

      (1) It would be useful to explain why GATA4 was chosen over HIF1a, which was the most differentially expressed. 

      The authors thank the reviewer for reviewing our manuscript and providing insightful comments.

      When we first saw the results, we did consider studying the role of HIF1a in aging because it was the most differentially expressed. When we reviewed the relevant literature, we found that HIF1a was commonly upregulated in aged individuals which was thought to be linked to hypoxia and increased oxidated stress (PMID: 12470896, PMID: 12573436). Further investigation found studies that investigated HIF1a in chondrocytes and the use of in vivo work to investigate its role in osteoarthritis (PMID: 32214220). Indicating that HIF1a plays a protective role during OA by suppressing the activation of NF-kB pathway.  Moreover, there is work that has been conducted assessing the stabilization of HIF1a by regulating mitophagy and using HIF1a as a potential therapeutic target for OA (PMID: 32587244). Since there have been many studies investigating the correlation of HIF1a expression and OA, we felt that it would be more innovative to look at other molecules, such as GATA4. Moreoever, as we highlighted in the Introducion and Disucussion, through testing in cell types other than chondrocytes, GATA4 was shown to be associated with DNA damage and senescence, which are both aging hallmarks. Given the fact that roles of GATA4 in chodnrocytes had not been previous studies, we thus chose GATA4 in this study. 

      “Of note, Hypoxia-Inducible Factor 1a (HIF1a) was the most differentially expressed gene predicted to regulate chondrocyte aging. The connection between HIF1a and aging has been previously reported.32 Furthermore, additional studies have investigated HIF1a in association with OA and assessed its use as a therapeutic target.[33,34] Therefore, we decided to focus on GATA4, which was less studied in chondrocytes but highly associated with cellular senescence, an aging hallmark. However, our selection did not dampen the importance of HIF1α and other molecules listed in Figure 1D in chondrocyte aging. They can be further studied in the future using the same strategy employed in the current work.” (Lines 526-533)

      (2) In Figure 5, it would be useful to demonstrate the non-surgical or naive limbs to help contextualize OARSI scores and knee hyperalgesia changes. 

      Thank you for your comment. Based on prior experience, the OARSI score of mice in the sham group had an OARSI score ranging from 0-0.5. In the current study, we focused on the DMM control and DMM Gata4 virus groups so we did not include a sham control group. We recognized this was a limitation of this study.

      “We measured the naive limbs for knee hyperalgesia before DMM surgery, and found the average threshold was 507g. We have highlighted the threshold measurement in the figure legend.507 g was the threshold baseline for non-surgery mice (dashed line).” (Lines 499-500)

      (3) While there appear to be GATA4 small-molecule inhibitors in various stages of development that could be used to assess the effects in age-related OA, those experiments are out of scope for the current study. 

      We agree with this comment that the results are still preliminary, which was the reason that we put it in the supplementary materials. However, we felt like the result is informative, which will support the potential of GATA4 as a therapeutic target and inspire the development of more specific inhibitors. Therefore, if the reviewer agrees, we want to keep the results in the current study.

      In particular, our in vitro study demonstrated the potential of using small-molecule GATA4 to enhance the quality of cartilage created by old chondrocytes. We can validate the findings in vivo, as well as develop other GATA4 inhibitors. (Lines 673-675)

      (4) Is GATA4 upregulated in chondrocytes in publicly available databases? 

      Thank you for this question. We have examined the public databases and have found that there is data showing the trend that GATA4 is upregulated in aged or OA chondrocytes in work conducted by Ungethuem et al (PMID: 20858714). In one study by Ramos et al. (PMID: 25054223), we noticed that GATA4 expression levels were the same in both young and old groups, which may be due to the relatively smaller sample size in the young group compared to old group (4 vs 26).

      Work Conducted by Grogan et al. (Unpublished https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/geo/query/acc.cgi?acc=GSE39795)

      Author response image 1.

      Author response image 2.

      Work conducted by Ramos et al. (PMID: 25054223).<br />

      Author response image 3.

      Work conducted by Ungethuem et al (PMID: 20858714).<br />

      (5) In many cases, the figure captions describe the experiment vs. the outcome. It may be more compelling to state the main finding in the figure title, and you might consider changing it from what is stated at present. For example, Figure 2: instead of the impact of overexpression, you may say GATA4 overexpression impairs cartilage formation (as stated in the results).

      Thanks for the suggestion. We have made the following changes to the figure captions as suggested.

      Figure 1: GATA4 is upregulated in aged chondrocytes (Line 373)

      Figure 2: Overexpressing GATA4 impairs the hyaline cartilage formation capacity of young chondrocytes (Lines 408-409)

      Figure 3: GATA4 overexpression activates SMAD1/5  (Line 436)

      Figure 4: Suppressing GATA4 in old chondrocytes promotes cartilage formation and lowers expression of proinflammatory cytokines (Line 467)

      Figure 5: Gata4 overexpression in the knee joints accelerates OA progression in mice. (Line 593)

      (6) It would be useful to provide a little more information about the human tissue donors, if that is available. 

      We have provided more information about the tissue donors in the revised Supplementary Table S1.

      (7) While aging-like changes were observed in young chondrocytes with GATA4 overexpression, it would be interesting to directly evaluate if there is a change in biological versus chronological age in these tissues. Companies like Zymo can provide this biological v chronological age epigenetic clock-based assessments if that is of interest, to say the young chondrocytes are looking "older". 

      Thank you for this information. We agree that it will be important to assess epigenetic changes in GATA-overexpressing cells. We are contacting the company to learn more about their technology. Meanwhile, we added this to the future work section of the manuscript.

      “Although we found that GATA4 was generally increased with aging, some young donors also exhibited increased levels of GATA4, which may be associated with increased DNA damage, as discussed above, or other stressors. Therefore, GATA4 should be used together in conjunction with other aging biomarkers, such as the epigenetic clock [72] to precisely define chondrocyte aging. Future work should examine biological versus chronological aging and epigenetic clock-based assessments to explain the variabilities in GATA4 expression among donors.”  (Lines 658-663)

      (8) It is not clear the age at which the mice received DMM in the methods, but it is shown in Figure 5. 

      We have added the age at which the mice received the DMM surgery to the methods section.

      “Intraarticular injections were administered to mice between 10-12 weeks of age under general anesthesia to safeguard the well-being of the animals and to minimize procedural discomfort.” (Line 300)

      “One week after viral vector injection, DMM surgery was performed to induce the OA model on mice 11-13 weeks of age.” (Line 312-313)

      (9) It is not clear which factors were assayed using Luminex, and it would be great to add. 

      Thank you for this comment, we have added a comprehensive list of proteins assessed using Luminex into a new supplementary table 6 (S6).

      (10) Also interesting, loss of GATA4 seems to prevent diet-induced obesity in mice and promote insulin sensitivity (potentially via GLP-1 secretion). I wonder if there may be a metabolic axis here too? PMID: 21177287. I may have missed parts of the discussion of the role of GATA4 in metabolism, but it might be an interesting addition to the discussion. 

      In the current study, we have not investigated the role of GATA4 in obesity. As suggested, we have included a discussion of GATA4 in metabolism.

      “Furthermore, GATA4 might be associated with metabolic regulation. A study conducted by Patankar et al. investigated how GATA4 regulates obesity. Specifically, they used intestine-specific Gata4 knockout mice to study diet-induced obesity, showing that the knockout mice were resistant to the high-fat diet, and that glucagon-like peptide-1 (GLP-1) release was increased. These findings indicated a decreased risk for the development for insulin resistance in knockout mice.[44] This work was taken a step further in a subsequent publication, in which the same team investigated the dietary lipid-dependent and independent effects on the development of steatosis and fibrosis in Gata4 knockout mice. The results from this work suggested that the knockdown of Gata4 increases GLP-1 release, in turn suppressing the development of hepatic steatosis and fibrosis, ultimately blocking hepatic de novo lipogenesis.[45] These studies are especially interesting with the rise of GLP-1 based therapy for the treatment of OA.46,47 Thus, the coupling of GATA4-related metabolic dysfunction and OA should be further investigated.” (Lines 542-553)

      (11) Another potential citation: GATA4 regulates angiogenesis and persistence of inflammation in rheumatoid arthritis PMID: 29717129 - around the inflammatory axis potential in OA? since GATA4 was reported in FLS from OA- PMC11183113.

      Thank you. We have included this work/citation in the discussion section.\

      “Further studies have shown that GATA4 regulates angiogenesis and inflammation in fibroblast-like synoviocytes in rheumatoid arthritis, indicating that GATA4 is required for the inflammation induced by IL-1b. This study also demonstrated that GATA4 binds to promoter regions on Vascular Endothelial Growth Factor (VEGF)-A and VEGFC to enhance transcription and regulate angiogenesis.[15]”  (Lines 558-562)

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      Weaknesses: 

      The main weakness in this paper lies in the authors' reliance on a single model to derive conclusions on the role of local antigen during the acute phase of the response by comparing T cells in model antigen-vaccinia virus (VV-OVA) exposed skin to T cells in contralateral skin exposed to DNFB 5 days after the VV-OVA exposure. In this setting, antigen-independent factors may contribute to the difference in CD8+ T cell number and phenotype at the two sites. For example, it was recently shown that very early memory precursors (formed 2 days after exposure) are more efficient at seeding the epithelial TRM compartment than those recruited to skin at later times (Silva et al, Sci Immunol, 2023). DNFB-treated skin may therefore recruit precursors with reduced TRM potential. In addition, TRM-skewed circulating memory precursors have been identified (Kok et al, JEM, 2020), and perhaps VV-OVA exposed skin more readily recruits this subset compared to DNFB-exposed skin. Therefore, when the DNFB challenge is performed 5 days after vaccinia virus, the DNFB site may already be at a disadvantage in the recruitment of CD8+ T cells that can efficiently form TRM. In addition, CD8+ T cell-extrinsic mechanisms may be at play, such as differences in myeloid cell recruitment and differentiation or local cytokine and chemokine levels in VV-infected and DNFB-treated skin that could account for differences seen in TRM phenotype and function between these two sites. Although the authors do show that providing exogenous peptide antigen at the DNFB-site rescues their phenotype in relation to the VV-OVA site, the potential antigen-independent factors distinguishing these two sites remain unaddressed. In addition, there is a possibility that peptide treatment of DNFB-treated initiates a second phase of priming of new circulatory effectors in the local-draining lymph nodes that are then recruited to form TRM at the DFNB-site, and that the effect does not solely rely on TRM precursors at the DNFB-treated skin site at the time of peptide treatment. 

      Thank you for pointing out these potential caveats to our work.  We have considered the possibility that late application of peptide or cell-extrinsic difference could affect the interpretation of our results.  We would like to highlight that in our prior publication on this topic [1], we found that OT-1 responses in mice infected with VV-OVA and VV-N (irrelevant antigen) yielded the same responses as in our VV-OVA/DNFB models.  In addition, in both our prior publication and our current manuscript, application of peptide to DNFB painted sites results in T<sub>RM</sub> with a similar phenotype to those in the VV-OVA site.  Thus, we are confident that it is the presence of cognate antigen in the skin that drives the augmented T<sub>RM</sub> fitness that we observe.

      Secondly, although the authors conclusively demonstrate that TGFBRIII is induced by TCR signals and required for conferring increased fitness to local-antigen-experienced CD8+ TRM compared to local antigen-inexperienced cells, this is done in only one experiment, albeit repeated 3 times. The data suggest that antigen encounter during TRM formation induces sustained TGFBRIII expression that persists during the antigen-independent memory phase. It remains unclear why only the antigen encounter in skin, but not already in the draining lymph nodes, induces sustained TGFBRIII expression. Further characterizing the dynamics of TGFBRIII expression on CD8+ T cells during priming in draining lymph nodes and over the course of TRM formation and persistence may shed more light on this question. Probing the role of this mechanism at other sites of TRM formation would also further strengthen their conclusions and enhance the significance of this finding. 

      This is an intriguing point.  We do not understand why expression of TGFbR3 in T<sub>RM</sub> required antigen encounter in the skin if T<sub>RM</sub> at all sites clearly have encountered antigen during priming in the LN.  We speculate that durable TGFbR3 expression may require antigen encounter in the context of additional cues present in the periphery or only once cells have committed to the T<sub>RM</sub> lineage.  A more detailed characterization of the dynamics of TGFbR3 expression in multiple tissues would be informative and represents a promising future direction for this project.  We note that to robustly perform these experiments a reporter mouse would likely be a requirement.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Weaknesses: 

      Overall, the authors' conclusions are well supported, although there are some instances where additional controls, experiments, or clarifications would add rigor. The conclusions regarding skin-localized TCR signaling leading to increased skin CD8+ TRM proliferation in-situ and increased TGFBR3 expression would be strengthened by assessing skin CD8+ TRM proliferation and TGFBR3 expression in models of high versus low avidity topical OVA-peptide exposure.

      Thank you for these helpful suggestions.  We did not attempt these experiment as we were concerned that given the relatively modest expansion differences observed with the APL that resolving differences in TGFbR3 and BrdU would prove unreliable. However, this is something that we could attempt as we continue working on this project.

      The authors could further increase the novelty of the paper by exploring whether TGFBR3 is regulated at the RNA or protein level. To this end, they could perform analysis of their single-cell RNA sequencing data (Figure 1), comparing Tgfbr3 mRNA in DNFB versus VV-treated skin. 

      As discussed above, a more detailed analysis of TGFbR3 regulation is of great interest.  These experiments would likely require the creation of additional tools (e.g. a reporter mouse) to provide robust data.  However, as suggested, we have re-analyzed our scRNAseq looking for expression of Tgfbr3. Pseudobulk analysis of cells isolated from VV or DNFB sites suggests that Tgfbr3 appears to be elevated in antigen-experienced TRM at steady-state (Author response image 1).

      Author response image 1.

      Pseudobulk analysis by average gene expression of Tgfbr3 in cells isolated from either VV or DNFB treated flanks, divided by the average gene expression of Tgfbr3 in naïve CD8 T cells from the same dataset.

      For clarity, when discussing antigen exposure throughout the paper, it would be helpful for the authors to be more precise that they are referring to the antigen in the skin rather than in the draining lymph node. A more explicit summary of some of the lab's previous work focused on CD8+ TRM and the role of TGFb would also help readers better contextualize this work within the existing literature on which it builds. 

      We appreciate this feedback, and we have clarified this in the text.

      For rigor, it would be helpful where possible to pair flow cytometry quantification with the existing imaging data.

      Thank you for these suggestions.  In terms of quantification of number of T<sub>RM</sub>by flow cytometry, we have previously demonstrated as much as a 36-fold decrease in cell count when compared to numbers directly visualized by immunofluorescence [1].  Thus, for enumeration of T<sub>RM</sub> we rely primarily on direct IF visualization and use flow cytometry primarily for phenotyping.

      Additional controls, namely enumerating TRM in the opposite, untreated flank skin of VV-only-treated mice and the treated flank skin of DNFB-only treated mice, would help contextualize the results seen in dually-treated mice in Figure 2.

      Without a source of inflammation (e.g. VV infection of DNFB) we see very few T<sub>RM</sub>in untreated skin.  A representative image is provided (Author response image 2).  A single DNFB stimulation does not recruit any CD8+ T cells to the skin without a prior sensitization [2].

      Author response image 2.

      Representative images of epidermal whole mounts of VV treated flank skin, and an untreated site from the same mouse isolated on day 50 post infection and stained for CD8a.

      In figure legends, we suggest clearly reporting unpaired T tests comparing relevant metrics within VV or DNFB-treated groups (for example, VV-OVA PBS vs VV-OVA FTY720 in Figure 3F).

      Thank you for this suggestion.  The figure legends have been amended.

      Finally, quantifying right and left skin draining lymph node CD8+ T cell numbers would clarify the skin specificity and cell trafficking dynamics of the authors' model. 

      We quantified the numbers of CD8 T cells in left and right skin draining lymph nodes by flow cytometry in mice at day 50 post VV infection DNFB-pull.  We observe similar numbers of cells at both sites (Author response Image 3).

      Author response Image 3.

      Quantification of total number of CD8+ T cells in left and right inguinal lymph nodes. Each symbol represents paired data from the same individual animal, and this is representative of 3 separate experiments.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) Figures 1D and S1C demonstrate that 80-90 % of TRM at both VV and DNFB sites express CD103+. In contrast, the sequencing data suggests the TRM at the VV site has much higher Itgae expression. Also, clusters 3 and 4, which express significantly more Itgae than all other clusters, together comprise only ~30% of CD8+ T cells at the VV-infected skin site. How can these discrepancies between transcript and protein expression be explained? 

      Thank you for these excellent comments. T<sub>RM</sub> at both VV and DNFB sites appear to express similarly high levels of CD103 protein in both the OT-I system as we previously published [1] and in a polyclonal system using tetramers.  The lower penetrance of Itgae expression in the scRNAseq data we attribute to a lack of sensitivity which is common with this modality.  However, the relative increased expression of Itgae in clusters 3 and 4 is interesting and may suggest increased Itgae production/stability.  However, in the absence of any effect on protein expression, we chose not to focus on these mRNA differences.

      (2) For the experiments in Figure 3D, in order to exclude a contribution from circulating memory cells, FTY720 should have been administered during the duration of, not prior to, the initiation of the recall response. The effect of FTY720 wears off quickly, so the current experimental setting likely allows for circulating cells to enter the skin. This concern is mitigated by the results of anti-Thy1.1 mAb treatment, but documenting the experiment as in Figure D will likely be confusing to readers. 

      Thank you for this comment.  We relied on the literature indicating that the half-life of FTY720 in blood is longer than 6 days [3-5].  However, on reviewing this again, there are other reports suggesting a lower halflife.  Thank you for pointing out this potential caveat.  As mentioned above, we do not think this affects the interpretation of our data as similar results were obtained with anti-Thy1.1

      (3) Similar to what is described in the weaknesses section, the data on TGFBRIII expression is lacking. When is TGFBRIII induced? In the LN during primary activation and it is then sustained by a secondary antigen exposure at the peripheral target tissue site? Or is it only induced in the peripheral tissue, and there is interesting biology to uncover in regard to how it is induced by the TCR only after secondary exposure, etc.? 

      Thank you for these comments. As discussed above, a more detailed analysis of TGFbR3 regulation is of great interest.  These experiments would likely require the creation of additional tools (e.g. a reporter mouse) to provide robust data and are part of our future directions.

      (4) As described in the weakness section, there could be TCR-independent differences between the VV-OVA and DNFB sites that lead to phenotypic changes in the TRMs that are formed there, both CD8+ T cell-intrinsic (kinetics; with regard to time after initial priming) and extrinsic (microenvironmental differences due to the nature of the challenge, recruited cell types, cytokines, chemokines, etc.). Since the authors report the use of both VV and VV-ova, we recommend an experimental strategy that controls for this by challenging one site with VV and another with VV-OVA concomitantly, followed by repeating the key experiments reported in this manuscript. 

      As discussed above, we have previously published a very similar experiment using VV-OVA and VV-N infection on opposite flanks [1].

      (5) In Figure 6J please indicate means and provide more of the statistics comparing the groups (such as comparing VV-WT vehicle to VV-KO vehicle etc.), and potentially display on a linear scale as with all of the other figures looking at cells/mm2 to help convince the reader of the conclusions and support the secondary findings mentioned in the text such as "Notably, numbers of Tgfbr3ΔCD8 TRM in cohorts treated with vehicle remained at normal levels indicating that loss of TGFβRIII does not affect TRM epidermal residence in the steady state" despite it looking like there is a decrease when looking at the graph. 

      We appreciate the feedback on the readability of this figure, and so have updated figure 6J to be on a linear scale and added additional helpful statistics to the figure legend. The difference between Tgfbr3<sup>WT</sup> and Tgfbr3<sup>∆CD8</sup> at steady state is excellent point, and we agree that there could to be a trend towards reduction in the huNGFR+ T<sub>RM</sub> across both groups, even without CWHM12 administration. However, we did not see statistically significant reductions in steady-state Tgfbr3<sup>∆CD8</sup> T<sub>RM</sub>, but the slight reduction in both VV-OVA and DNFB treated flanks suggests that TGFßRIII may play a role in steady-state maintenance of all T<sub>RM</sub>. Perhaps with more sensitive tools to better visualize TGFßRIII expression, we could identify stepwise upregulation of TGFßRIII depending on TCR signal strength, possibly starting in the lymph node. We have also amended our description of this figure in the text, to allow for the possibility that a low, but under the level of detection amount of TGFßRIII could play a role in steady-state maintenance of both local antigen-experienced and bystander T<sub>RM</sub>.

      Minor points: 

      (1) In describing Figure 4B, the term "doublets" for pairs of connected dividing cells is confusing. 

      Thank you for this comment, the term has been revised to “dividing cells” in the text and figure.

      (2) Figure legend 4F: BrdU is not "expressed" . 

      Very true, it has been changed to “incorporation”.

      (3) Do CreERT2 and/or huNGFR expressed by transferred OT-I cells act as foreign antigens in C57BL/6 mice, potentially causing elimination of circulating memory cells? If that were the case, this would not necessarily confound the read-out of TRM persistence studied here, since skin TRM are likely protected from at least antibody-mediated deletion and their numbers are not maintained by recruitment of circulating cells at stead-state. However, it would be useful to be aware of this potential limitation of this and similar models. 

      Thank you for raising the important technical concern.  In our prior work [1] and this work, we monitor the levels of transferred OT-I cells in the blood over time.  We have not observed rejection of huNGFR+ cells.  We also note that others using the same system have also not observed rejection [6].

      (4) In Figure 6J, means or medians should be indicated 

      This has been updated in Figure 6J.

      (5) Using the term "antigen-experienced" to specifically refer to TRM at the VV site could be confusing, since those at the DNFB site are also Ag-experienced (in the LN draining the VV skin site). 

      We agree that it is a challenging term, as all T<sub>RM</sub> are memory cells. That is why in the text we refer to T<sub>RM</sub> isolated from the VV site as “local antigen experienced T<sub>RM</sub>.”, to try to distinguish them from bystanders that did not experience local antigen.

      (6) The Title essentially restates what was already reported in the authors' prior study. If the data supporting the TGFBRIII-mediated mechanism is studied in more depth, maybe adding this aspect to the title may be useful? 

      Thank you for this suggestion.  I think the current title is probably most suitable for the current manuscript but we are willing to change it should the editors support an alternative title.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) Definition of bystander CD8+ TRM: The first paragraph of the introduction defines CD8+ TRM. To improve the clarity of this definition, we suggest being explicit that bystander TRM experience cognate antigen in the SDLNs but, in contrast to other TRM, do not experience cognate antigen in the skin. 

      Thank you, we have clarified this is in the text.

      (2) Consider softening the language when comparing the efficiency of CD8+ recruitment of the skin between DNFB and VV-treated flanks. For example, substitute "equal efficiency" with "comparable efficiency" since it is difficult to directly compare the extent of inflammation between viral and hapten-based treatments. 

      We have adjusted this terminology throughout the paper.

      (3) Throughout figure legends, we appreciate the indication of the number of experimental repeats performed. We suggest, either through statistics or supplemental figures, demonstrating the degree of variability between experiments to aid readers in understanding the reproducibility of results. 

      Thank you for this suggestion.  In key figures we show data from individual mice across multiple experiments. Thus, inter-experiment variability is captured in our figures.  

      (4) Figure 1: 

      a) Add control mice treated with either vaccinia virus or DNFB and harvest back skin at day 52 to demonstrate baseline levels of polyclonal and B8R tetramer-positive CD8s in the epidermis. These controls would clarify the background CD8+ expansion that might occur in DNFB-treated mice in the absence of vaccinia virus. 

      This point was addressed above.

      b) Figure 1: It would be helpful to see the %Tet+ population specifically in the CD103+ population, recognizing that the majority of the CD8+ from the skin are CD103+. 

      We did look only at CD103+ CD8 T cells from the skin for our tetramer analysis, so this has been clarified in the figure legend.

      c) Provide a UMAP, very similar to 1H, where CD8+ T cells, vaccinia virus, and DNFB-treated flanks are overlaid.

      Thank you for this suggestion.  A UMAP combining aspects of 1G (cell types from the whole ImmgenT dataset) with 1H (our data) results in a figure that is very difficult to interpret.  Thus, we have separated cell types across the entire ImmgenT data set (e.g. CD8+ T cells) and our data into 2 separate panels.

      d) 1D: left flow plot has numbered axis while the right flow plot does not. 

      Thank you, this has been fixed.

      (5) Figure 2: 

      a) In the figure legend, define what is meant by the grey line present in Figures 2C and 2D. 

      This has been updated in the figure legend.

      b) Edit the Y axis of 2C and 2D to specify the TRM signature score. 

      This has been updated in the figure.

      c) Include panel 1D from 1S into Figure 2 to help clarify for the reader what genes are expressed in the 0 - 5 clusters.

      We appreciate the feedback, but we found the heatmap made the figure look too busy, so we feel comfortable keeping it available within supplemental figure 1.

      d) In body of text explicitly discuss that the TRM module used to calculate a signature score was created using virus infection modules (HSV, LCMV and influenza) and thus some of the transcriptional similarity between the authors vaccinia virus treated CD8+ TRM and the TRM module might be due to viral infection rather than TRM status.

      Thank you for this comment.  We have now emphasized this point in the text.

      (6) Figure 3: 

      a) If there are leftover tissue sections, it would be optimal to show specific staining for CD103. We recognize that this data has been previously published by the lab, but it would be ideal to show it once in this paper. 

      Unfortunately, we do not have leftover tissue sections, so we are unable to measure CD103 by I.F. in these experiments.

      b) If you did collect skin draining lymph nodes in the Thy1.1 depletion model, it would be nice to see flow data showing the depletion effects in the skin draining lymph nodes in addition to the blood. 

      Unfortunately, we did not collect the skin draining lymph nodes, and do not have that data for the relevant experiments.

      c) Figure 3 F & G: Perform a T-test comparing vaccinia virus PBS to FTY720 and isotype to anti-Thy1.1 within the same treatment group. Showing no significance with these two comparisons would strengthen the authors' claims. Statistics can be described in legend. 

      We have included this analysis in the figure legend.

      (7) Figure 4: 

      a) It would be helpful to have the CD69+/CD103+ population in this model discussed/defined more. The CD69 expression seen in 4E is lower than the reviewers would've predicted, and it would be interesting to see CD103 expression as well.

      We have found that generally CD103 is a stronger marker for in the skin by flow, as CD69 staining is somewhat less robust in the colors we have chosen.  By way of example, we present gating we did upstream in that experiment, gated previously on liveCD45+CD3+CD8+ events (Author response image 4).

      Author response image 4.

      Representative flow cytometric plots showing CD69 and CD103 expression in gated live CD45+CD8+CD90.1+ cells isolates from VV-OVA or DNFB treated flanks.

      (8) Figure 5: 

      a) Define APL and its purpose in both the body of text and the figure legend. 

      We have clarified this in the text and the figure legend.

      b) Using in-vivo BrdU, compare proliferation between high avidity N4 and low avidity Y3 OVA-peptide at the primary recall timepoint. 

      We considered this, but due to the lack of sensitivity of the BrdU incorporation and the relatively subtle phenotype of the Y3, we did not think the assay would be sensitive enough to identify differences.

      (9) Figure 6: 

      a) Compare TGFBR3 expression in CD8+ T cells from mice receiving high avidity N4 versus low avidity Y3 OVA-peptide at the primary recall timepoint. 

      This point was discussed above.

      b) Either 1) examine TGFBR3 mRNA expression in VV vs DNFB skin from scRNA-seq dataset or 2) perform a qPCR on epidermal CD8+ T cells from mice receiving high avidity N4 versus low avidity Y3 at the primary recall timepoint. This would help distinguish whether TGFBR3 regulation occurs at the mRNA versus protein level. 

      This point has been discussed above.

      c) Figure 6A: Not required, but it seems like the TGFBR3 gate could be shifted to the right a bit. 

      The gates were set using FMO.

      d) Figure 6C: What comparison is the asterisk indicating significance referring to?

      It is the Dunnett’s test comparing VV-OVA to DNFB and untreated skin, the figure has been amended to clarify this point.

      e) Figure 6: To increase the rigor of the claim that CWHM12 is creating a TGFb limiting condition, the authors could either 1) perform an ELISA or cell-based assay measuring active TGFb, 2) recapitulate results of 6J using monoclonal antibody against avb6 as done in Hirai et al., 2021, Immunity., or 3) examine Tgfbr3 mRNA expression in your single cell RNAseq data, comparing cluster 0 and cluster 3.

      We are pleased to have the opportunity to show Tgfbr3 mRNA, which is above in figure R1.

      (10) Material and methods: 

      Specify how the localization of the back skin used for imaging was made consistent between the right and left flanks. 

      We have updated this methodology in the text.

      Literature Cited

      (1) Hirai, T., et al., Competition for Active TGFβ Cytokine Allows for Selective Retention of Antigen-Specific Tissue- Resident Memory T Cells in the Epidermal Niche. Immunity, 2021. 54(1): p. 84-98.e5.

      (2) Manresa, M.C., Animal Models of Contact Dermatitis: 2,4-Dinitrofluorobenzene-Induced Contact Hypersensitivity, in Animal Models of Allergic Disease: Methods and Protocols, K. Nagamoto-Combs, Editor. 2021, Springer US: New York, NY. p. 87-100.

      (3) Müller, H.C., et al., The Sphingosine-1 Phosphate receptor agonist FTY720 dose dependently affected endothelial integrity in vitro and aggravated ventilator-induced lung injury in mice. Pulmonary Pharmacology & Therapeutics, 2011. 24(4): p. 377-385.

      (4) Nofer, J.-R., et al., FTY720, a Synthetic Sphingosine 1 Phosphate Analogue, Inhibits Development of Atherosclerosis in Low-Density Lipoprotein Receptor–Deficient Mice. Circulation, 2007. 115(4): p. 501-508.

      (5) Brinkmann, V., et al., Fingolimod (FTY720): discovery and development of an oral drug to treat multiple sclerosis. Nat Rev Drug Discov, 2010. 9(11): p. 883-97.

      (6) Andrews, L.P., et al., A Cre-driven allele-conditioning line to interrogate CD4<sup>+</sup> conventional T cells. Immunity, 2021. 54(10): p. 2209-2217.e6.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The behavior of cells expressing constitutively active HRas is examined in mosaic monolayers, both in MCF10a breast epithelial and Beas2b bronchial epithelial cell lines, mimicking the potential initial phase of development of carcinoma. Single HRas-positive cells are excluded from MCF10a but not Beas2b monolayers. Most interestingly, however, when in groups, these cells are not excluded, but rather sharply segregated within a MCF10a monolayer. In contrast, they freely mix with wt Beas2b cells. Biophysical analysis identifies high tension at heterotypic interfaces between HRas and wild-type cells as the likely reason for segregation of MCF10a cells. The hypothesis is supported experimentally, as myosin inhibition abolishes segregation. The probable reason for the lack of segregation in the bronchial epithelium is to be found in the different intrinsic properties of these cells, which form a looser tissue with lower basal actomyosin activity. The behaviour of single cells and groups is recapitulated in a vortex model based on the principle of differential interfacial tension, under the condition of high heterotypic interfacial tension.

      Strengths:

      Despite being long recognized as a crucial event during cancer development, segregation of oncogenic cells has been a largely understudied question. This nice work addresses the mechanics of this phenomenon through a straightforward experimental design, applying the biophysical analytical approaches established in the field of morphogenesis. Comparison between two cell types provides some preliminary clues on the diversity of effects in various cancers.

      Weaknesses:

      Although not calling into question the main message of this study, there are a few issues that one may want to address:

      (1) One may be careful in interpreting the comparison between MCF10a and Beas2b cells as used in this study. The conditions may not necessarily be representative of the actual properties of breast and bronchial epithelia. How much of the epithelial organization is reconstituted under these experimental conditions remains to be established. This is particularly obvious for bronchial cells, which would need quite specific culture conditions to build a proper bronchial layer. In this study, they seemed to be on the verge of a mesenchymal phenotype (large gaps, huge protrusions, cells growing on top of each other, as mentioned in the manuscript).

      We thank the reviewer for this important point. We agree that our experimental conditions do not fully recapitulate the in vivo architecture of either breast or bronchial epithelia. However, here, our intention is to compare two well-established epithelial lines with distinct intrinsic mechanical and organizational properties, rather than to reproduce in-vivo microenvironment. Nevertheless, to address this, we have now strengthened our quantitative analysis of epithelial integrity in Beas2b monolayers, by including ZO-1 immunofluorescence along with E-cadherin immunofluorescence. These measurements confirm that Beas2b monolayers under our culture conditions retain junctional organization, albeit with larger gaps and protrusions compared to MCF10a. We will revise the text to make this distinction explicit.

      As an alternative to Beas2b, comparison of MCF10a with another cell line capable of more robust in vitro epithelial organization, but ideally with different adhesive and/or tensile properties, would be highly interesting, as it may narrow down the parameters involved in segregation of oncogenic cells.

      We agree with the reviewer that the inclusion of an additional epithelial model system with distinct adhesive and organizational properties would provide valuable insights. In line with this suggestion, we are currently repeating the key experiments using Madin-Darby Canine Kidney (MDCK) cells, a well-established model epithelial cell line. We believe this complementary system will allow us to further dissect the behaviour of HRasV12-expressing cells.

      (2) While the seminal description of tissue properties based on interfacial tensions (Brodland 2002) is clearly key to interpreting these data, the actual "Differential Interfacial Tension Hypothesis" poses that segregation results from global differences, i.e., juxtaposition of two tissues displaying different intrinsic tensions. On the contrary, the results of the present work support a different scenario, where what counts is the actual difference in tension ALONG the tissue boundary, in other words, that segregation is driven by high HETEROTYPIC interfacial tension. This is an important distinction that should be clarified.

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful comment. As correctly noted, Brodland’s 2002 work provided a seminal formulation of the Differential Interfacial Tension Hypothesis (DITH), which frames tissue organization in terms of effective interfacial tensions. In its original form, DITH emphasized segregation as a consequence of global differences in the intrinsic (bulk) tensions of juxtaposed tissues.

      While our results specifically show that segregation is determined by local interfacial mechanics between transformed- and host cells, from our experiments with blebbistatin, where we observed lost in segregation upon reducing global contractility, we believe that the differences in local interfacial mechanics also stem from global differences which belong intrinsically to the tissues in discussion here.

      To directly map global interfacial tension, in the revised manuscript, we aim to perform staining with E-cadherin, and actin in the two tissues, and measure cortical actin, stress fibers, and E-cadherin levels at the cell-cell junctions. Once the global tissue mechanics are mapped, we can be more confident about our claim on DITH. Nevertheless, we will also clarify this distinction, more clearly in the text and explicitly state that while DITH provided the foundation for conceptualizing tissue mechanics, our findings on transformed cell- healthy cell interactions specifically demonstrate that segregation is driven by high heterotypic interfacial tension at the tissue boundary.

      (3) Related: The fact that actomyosin accumulates at the heterotypic interface is key here. It would be quite informative to better document the pattern of this accumulation, which is not clear enough from the images of the current manuscript: Are we talking about the actual interface between mutant and wt cells (membrane/cortex of heterotypic contacts)? Or is it more globally overactivated in the whole cell layer along the border? Some better images and some quantification would help.

      We agree that more detailed visualization of actomyosin distribution would strengthen our conclusion. We are currently working on re-imaging the heterotypic interfaces at higher magnification and are quantifying fluorescence intensity of actin and myosin-II along cell–cell boundaries. All of this will be integrated in the next version of the manuscript.

      (4) In the case of Beas2b cells, mutant cells show higher actin than wt cells, while actin is, on the contrary, lower in mutant MCF10a cells (Author response image 2). Has this been taken into account in the model? It may be in line with the idea that HRas may have a different action on the two cell types, a possibility that would certainly be worth considering and discussing.

      Our current vertex model does not explicitly incorporate actin levels; rather, it captures their functional consequences indirectly through effective mechanical parameters such as cortical tension and adhesion strength. Nonetheless, we agree that the opposite trends in actin enrichment between Beas2b and MCF10a HRasV12 mutants raise the important possibility that HRas signaling may act through distinct mechanisms in the two cell types.

      To further investigate this, we are currently culturing MCF10a and Beas2b HRasV12 mutant populations separately (i.e., without wild-type cells) to assess their intrinsic organization and behavior in isolation. These experiments will help us disentangle how HRas activation differentially impacts epithelial architecture in these two cellular contexts, and we will discuss these ongoing efforts in the revised manuscript.

      From the modelling perspective, the model currently does not account for the different actin levels of mutants with respect to wt cells in the two tissues. This can be accounted for by having different  and  for mutants and wt in the two cases in simulation.

      In conclusion, the study conveys an important message, but, as it stands, the strength of evidence is incomplete. It would greatly benefit from a more detailed and complete analysis of the experimental data, a better fit between this analysis and the corresponding vertex model, and a more in-depth discussion of biological and biophysical aspects. These revisions should be rather easily done, and would then make the evidence much more solid.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors investigate the behavior of oncogenic cells in mammary and bronchial epithelia. They observe that individual oncogenic cells are preferentially excluded from the mammary epithelium, but they remain integrated in the bronchial epithelium. They also observe that clusters of oncogenic cells form a compact cluster in the mammary epithelium, but they disperse in the bronchial epithelium. The authors demonstrate experimentally and in the vertex model simulations that the difference in observed behavior is due to the differential tension between the mutant and wild-type cells due to a differential expression of actin and myosin.

      Strengths:

      (1) Very detailed analysis of experiments to systematically characterize and quantify differences between mammary and bronchial epithelia.

      (2) Detailed comparison between the experiments and vertex model simulations to identify the differential cell line tension between the oncogenic and wild-type cells as one of the key parameters that are responsible for the different behavior of oncogenic cells in mammary and bronchial epithelia

      Weaknesses:

      (1) It is unclear what the mechanistic origin of the shape-tension coupling is, which is used in the vertex model, and how important that coupling is for the presented results. The authors claim that the shape-tension coupling is due to the anisotropic distribution of stress fibers when cells are under external stress. It is unclear why the stress fibers should affect an effective line tension on the cell boundaries and why the stress fibers should be sensitive to the magnitude of the internal isotropic cell pressure. In experiments, it makes sense that stress fibers form when cells are stretched. Similar stress fibers form when the cytoskeleton or polymer networks are stretched. It is unclear why the stress fibers should be sensitive to the magnitude of internal isotropic cell pressure. If all the surrounding cells have the same internal pressure, then the cell would not be significantly deformed due to that pressure, and stress fibers would not form. The authors should better justify the use of the shape-tension coupling in the model and also present simulation results without that coupling. I expect that most of the observed behavior is already captured by the differential tension, even if there is no shape-tension coupling. 

      While the segregation behavior can be captured by the differential tension, without the shape-tension coupling, we noticed unjamming and aligned movement of wild type cells at the mutant-cell interface. This was only captured when we incorporated shape tension coupling in the model, suggesting changes in cell shapes due to differential interfacial tension is essential in driving the fate of the mutants.  Below, difference between shape indices of cells at the interface and away from the boundary is plotted versus the interfacial tension in the case of no shape-tension coupling [Author response image 1]. The red dashed line represents the experimental value of the shape index difference. The blue line is the shape index difference between two randomly chosen groups of cells (half of the total number of cells in each group is taken). At zero line-tension, the difference in shape index between interface cells and cells away from the interface is same as that between randomly chosen groups of cells, which is expected since there should be no interface at zero line-tension. The no shape-tension data presented here are averaged over 19 seeds. Although the results without shape-tension coupling reaches experimental values at high enough differential tension [Author response image 2], a closer inspection of the simulation results show that the cells are just squeezed and are aligned perpendicular to the interface, which is contrary to what is seen in experiments.

      Author response image 1.

      Shape indices versus the interfacial line tension<br />

      Calculating the average of the absolute value of the dot product of the nematic director and the interface edge for simulations with and without shape-tension coupling clearly shows that with shape-tension coupling, the cells align and elongate along the interface as is seen in experiment, given by an interface dot product value > 0.5 at high enough line-tension values. Further, shape-tension coupling or biased edge tension has been used before to model for cell elongation during embryo elongation [1] and here we use it as an active line-tension force, which elongates cells along the interface, in addition to the differential tension which is passive. This additional quantification of the alignment and elongation of cells along the interface will be added to the Supplementary Information (SI).

      [1] Dye, N. A., Popović, M., Iyer, K. V., Fuhrmann, J. F., Piscitello-Gómez, R., Eaton, S., & Jülicher, F. (2021). Self-organized patterning of cell morphology via mechanosensitive feedback. Elife, 10, e57964.

      Author response image 2.

      Change in interfacial tension with and without shape tension coupling<br />

      (2) The observed difference of shape indices between the interfacial and bulk cells in simulations in the absence of differential line tension is concerning. This suggests that either there are not enough statistics from the simulations or that something is wrong with the simulations. For all presented simulation results, the authors should repeat multiple simulations and then present both averages and standard deviations. This way, it would be easier to determine whether the observed differences in simulations are statistically significant.

      The reviewer is right in pointing out that statistics for the plots must be shown. The difference in shape indices between the interfacial and bulk cells in simulations has been calculated over 11 different seed values. The observed differences in simulations along with the standard deviations have been plotted below [Author response image 3]. This figure in the paper will be updated to include the standard deviations. The non-zero difference in shape index in the absence of differential line tension for low values of stress threshold is due to the shape-tension coupling acting even at low differential tension. Thus, a non-zero, sufficiently high value of the stress threshold is required in our model with shape-tension coupling, for the model to make sense. This has also been stated in section 4 of the paper. The importance of the stress-tension coupling has been stated in response to the previous point.

      Author response image 3.<br />

      (3) The authors should also analyze the cell line tension data in simulations and make a comparison with experiments.

      We agree with the reviewer that cell line tension data should also be analyzed and compared with experiments. This will be added to the next version of the paper.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Cho et al. present a comprehensive and multidimensional analysis of glutamine metabolism in the regulation of B cell differentiation and function during immune responses. They further demonstrate how glutamine metabolism interacts with glucose uptake and utilization to modulate key intracellular processes. The manuscript is clearly written, and the experimental approaches are informative and well-executed. The authors provide a detailed mechanistic understanding through the use of both in vivo and in vitro models. The conclusions are well supported by the data, and the findings are novel and impactful. I have only a few, mostly minor, concerns related to data presentation and the rationale for certain experimental choices.

      Detailed Comments:

      (1) In Figure 1b, it is unclear whether total B cells or follicular B cells were used in the assay. Additionally, the in vitro class-switch recombination and plasma cell differentiation experiments were conducted without BCR stimulation, which makes the system appear overly artificial and limits physiological relevance. Although the effects of glutamine concentration on the measured parameters are evident, the results cannot be confidently interpreted as true plasma cell generation or IgG1 class switching under these conditions. The authors should moderate these claims or provide stronger justification for the chosen differentiation strategy. Incorporating a parallel assay with anti-BCR stimulation would improve the rigor and interpretability of these findings. 

      We will edit the manuscript to be more explicit that total splenic B cells were used in this set-up figure and the rest of the paper. In addition, we will try to perform new experiments to improve this "set-up figure" (and add old and new data for Supplemental Figure presentation). Specifically, we will increase the range of conditions tested - e.g., styles of stimulating proliferation and differentiation - to foster an increased sense of generality. We plan to compare mitogenic stimulation with anti-CD40 to  anti-IgM and to anti-IgM + anti-CD40, all with BAFF, IL-4, and IL-5, bearing in mind excellent work from Aiba et al, Immunity 2006; 24: 259-268, and similar papers. We also will try to present some representative flow cytometric profiles (presumably in new Supplemental Figure panels).

      To be transparent and add to a more open public discussion (using the virtues of this forum, the senior author and colleagues would caution about whether any in vitro conditions exist that warrant complete confidence. That is the reason for proceeding to immunization experiments in vivo. That is not said to cast doubt on our own in vitro data - there are some experiments (such as those of Fig. 1a-c and associated Supplemental Fig. 1) that only can be done in vitro or are better done that way (e.g., because of rapid uptake of early apoptotic B cells in vivo).

      For instance: Well-respected papers use the CD40LB and NB21.2D9 systems to activate B cells and generate plasma cells. Those appear to be BCR-independent and unfortunately, we found that they cannot be used with a.a. deprivation or these inhibitors due to effects on the engineered stroma-like cells. In considering BCR engagement, Reth has published salient points about signaling and concentrations of the Ab, the upshot being that this means of activating mitogenesis and plasma cell differentiation (when the B cells are costimulated via CD40 or TLR(4 or 7/8) is probably more than a bit artificial. Moreover, although Aiba et al, Immunity 2006; 24: 259-268 is a laudable exception, one rarely finds papers using BAFF despite the strong evidence it is an essential part of the equation of B cell regulation in vivo and a cytokine that modulates BCR signaling - in the cultures. 

      (2) In Figure 1c, the DMK alone condition is not presented. This hinders readers' ability to properly asses the glutaminolysis dependency of the cells for the measured readouts. Also, CD138+ in developing PCs goes hand in hand with decreased B220 expression. A representative FACS plot showing the gating strategy for the in vitro PCs should be added as a supplementary figure. Similarly, division number (going all the way to #7) may be tricky to gate and interpret. A representative FACS plot showing the separation of B cells according to their division numbers and a subsequent gating of CD138 or IgG1 in these gates would be ideal for demonstrating the authors' ability to distinguish these populations effectively.

      We agree that exact placement  of divisions deconvolution by FlowJow is more fraught than might be thought forpresentations in many or most papers. For the revision, we will try to add one or several representative FACS plot(s) with old and new data to provide the gating on CTV fluorescence, bearing these points in mind when extending the experiments from ~7 years ago (Fig. 1b, c). With the representative examples of the old data pasted in here, we will aver, however, that using divisions 0-6, and ≥7 was reasonable. 

      Ditto for DMK with normal glutamine. However, in the spirit of eLife transparency lacking in many other journals, this comparison is more fraught than the referee comment would make things seem. The concentration tolerated by cells is highly dependent on the medium and glutamine concentration, and perhaps on rates of glutaminolysis (due to its generation of ammonia). In practice, we find that DMK becomes more toxic to B cells unless glutamine is low or glutaminolysis is restricted. Thus, the concentration of DMK that is tolerated and used in Fig. 1b, c can become toxic to the B cells when using the higher levels of glutamine in typical culture media (2 mM or more) - at which point the "normal conditions + DMK" "control" involves the surviving cells in conditions with far greater cell death and less population expansion than the "low glutamine + DMK". condition. Overall, we appreciate the suggestion to show more DMK data and will work to do so for the earlier proliferation data (shown above) and the new experiments.  

      Author response image 1.

       

      (3) A brief explanation should be provided for the exclusive use of IgG1 as the readout in class-switching assays, given that naïve B cells are capable of switching to multiple isotypes. Clarifying why IgG1 was preferentially selected would aid in the interpretation of the results.

      We will edit the text to be more explicit and harmonize in light of the referee's suggestion that we focus the presentation of serologic data on IgG1 in the immunization experiments.

      [IgG1 provides the strongest signal and hence better signal/noise both in vitro and with the alum-based immunizations that are avatars for the adjuvant used in the majority of protein-based vaccines for humans.]

      (4) The immunization experiments presented in Figures 1 and 2 are well designed, and the data are comprehensively presented. However, to prevent potential misinterpretation, it should be clarified that the observed differences between NP and OVA immunizations cannot be attributed solely to the chemical nature of the antigens - hapten versus protein. A more significant distinction lies in the route of administration (intraperitoneal vs. intranasal) and the resulting anatomical compartment of the immune response (systemic vs. lung-restricted). This context should be explicitly stated to avoid overinterpretation of the comparative findings.

      We agree with the referee and will edit the text accordingly. Certainly, the difference in how the anti-ova response is elicited compared to the anti-NP response in the same mice or with a bit different an immunization regimen might be another factor - or the major factor - that could contribute towards explaining why glutaminolysis was important after ovalbumin inhalations (used because emergence of anti-ova Ab / ASCs is suppressed by the NP hapten after NP-ova immunization) but not needed for the anti-NP response unless Slc2a1 or Mpc2 also was inactivated. Thank you prompting addition of this caveat.

      Nevertheless, it seems fair to note that in Figures 1 and 2, the ASCs and Ab are being analyzed for NP and ova in the same mice, albeit with the NP-specific components not being driven by the inhalations of ovalbumin. With that in mind, when one compares the IgG1 anti-NP ASC and Ab to those for IgG1 anti-ovalbumin (ASC in bone marrow; Ab), the ovalbumin-specific response was reduced whereas the anti-NP response was not.

      (5) NP immunization is known to be an inducer of an IgG1-dominant Th2-type immune response in mice. IgG2c is not a major player unless a nanoparticle delivery system is used. However, the authors arbitrarily included IgG2c in their assays in Figures 2 and 3. This may be confusing for the readers. The authors should either justify the IgG2c-mediated analyses or remove them from the main figures. (It can be added as supplemental information with proper justification). 

      We will rearrange the Figure panels to move the IgM and IgG2c data to Supplemental Figures.

      For purposes of public discourse, we note that the data of previous Figure 3(c, g) show a very strong NP-specific IgG2c response that seems to contradict the concept that IgG2c responses necessarily are weak in this setting, and the important role of IgG2c (mouse - IgG1 in humans) in controlling or clearing various pathogens as well as in autoimmunity. So from the standpoint of providing a better sense of generality to the loss-of-function effects, we continue to think that these measurements are quite important. That said, the main text has many figure panels and as the review notes, the class switching and in vitro ASC generation were done with IL-4 / IgG1-promoting conditions. If possible, we will try to assay in vitro class switching with IFN-g rather than IL-4 but there may not be enough resources (time before lab closure; money).

      [As a collegial aside, we speculate that a greater or lesser IgG2c anti-NP response may arise due to different preparations of NP-carrier obtained from the vendor (Biosearch) having different amounts of TLR (e.g., TLR4) ligand. In any case, the points of presenting the IgG2c (and IgM) data were to push against the limiting boundaries of convention (which risks perpetuating a narrow view of potential outcomes) and make the breadth of results more apparent to readers.

      (6) Similarly, in affinity maturation analyses, including IgM is somewhat uncommon. I do not see any point in showing high affinity (NP2/NP20) IgMs (Figure 3d), since that data probably does not mean much.

      As noted in the reply immediately preceding this one, we appreciate this suggestion from the reviewer and will move the IgM and IgG2c to Supplemental status.

      Nonetheless, in collegial discourse we disagree a bit with the referee in light of our data as well as of work that (to our minds) leads one to question why inclusion of affinity maturation of IgM is so uncommon - as the referee accurately notes. Of course a defect in the capacity to class-switch is highly deleterious in patients but that is not the same as concluding that recall IgM or its affinity is of little consequence.

      In some of the pioneering work back in the 1980's, Bothwell showed that NP-carrier immunization generated hybridomas producing IgM Ab with extensive SHM (~11% of the 18 lineages; ~ 1/3 of the IgM hybridomas) [PMID: 8487778], IgM B cells appear to move into GC, and there is at least a reasonable published basis for the view that there are GC-derived IgM (unswitched) memory B cells (MBC) that would be more likely, upon recall activation, to differentiate into ASCs. [As an example, albeit with the Jenkins lab anti-rPE response, Taylor, Pape, and Jenkins generated quantitative estimates of the numbers of Ag-specific IgM<sup>+</sup>vs switched MBC that were GC-derived (or not). [PMID: 22370719]. While they emphasized that ~90% of  IgM<sup>+</sup> MBC appeared to be GC-independent, their data also indicated that ~1/2 of all GC-derived MBC were IgM<sup>+</sup> rather than switched (their Fig. 8, B vs C; also 8E, which includes alum-PE). And while we immensely respect the referee, we are perhaps less confident that IgM or high-affinity Ag-specific IgM doesn't mean that much, if only because of evidence that localized Ab compete for Ag and may thus influence selective processes [PMCID: PMC2747358; PMID: 15953185; PMID: 23420879; PMID: 27270306].

      (7) Following on my comment for the PC generation in Figure 1 (see above), in Figure 4, a strategy that relies solely on CD40L stimulation is performed. This is highly artificial for the PC generation and needs to be justified, or more physiologically relevant PC generation strategies involving anti-BCR, CD40L, and various cytokines should be shown. 

      In line with our response to point (1), we plan and will try to self-fund testing BCR-stimulated B cells (anti-CD40 to  anti-IgM and to anti-IgM + anti-CD40, all with BAFF, IL-4, and IL-5).

      (8) The effects of CB839 and UK5099 on cell viability are not shown. Including viability data under these treatment conditions would be a valuable addition to the supplementary materials, as it would help readers more accurately interpret the functional outcomes observed in the study. 

      We will add to the supplemental figures to present data that provide cues as to relative viability / survival under the experimental conditions used. [FSC X SSC as well as 7AAD or Ghost dye panels; we also hope to generate new data that include further experiments scoring annexin V staining.]

      (9) It is not clear how the RNA seq analysis in Figure 4h was generated. The experimental strategy and the setup need to be better explained.

      The revised manuscript will include more information (at minimum in the Methods, Legend), and we apologize that in this and a few other instances sufficiency of detail was sacrificed on the altar of brevity.

      [Adding a brief synopsis to any reader before the final version of record, given the many months it will take to generate new data, thoroughly revise the manuscript, etc:

      In three temporally and biologically independent experiments, cultures were harvested 3.5 days after splenic B cells were purified and cultured as in the experiments of Fig. 4a-e. total cellular RNA prepared from the twelve samples (three replicates for each of four conditions - DMSO vehicle control, CB839, UK5099, and CB839 + UK5099) was analyzed by RNA-seq. After the RNA-seq data were initially processed using the pipeline described in the Methods. For panels g & h of Fig 4, DE Seq2 was used to quantify and compare read counts in the three CB839 + UK5099 samples relative to the three independent vehicle controls and identify all genes for which variances yielded P<0.05. In Fig 4g, all such genes for which the difference was 'statistically significant' (i.e., P<0.05) were entered into the Immgen tool and thereby mapped to the B lineage subsets shown in the figure panels (i.e., g, h). In (g), these are displayed using one format, whereas (h) uses the 'heatmap' tool in MyGeneSet.  

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      In this manuscript, the authors investigate the functional requirements for glutamine and glutaminolysis in antibody responses. The authors first demonstrate that the concentrations of glutamine in lymph nodes are substantially lower than in plasma, and that at these levels, glutamine is limiting for plasma cell differentiation in vitro. The authors go on to use genetic mouse models in which B cells are deficient in glutaminase 1 (Gls), the glucose transporter Slc2a1, and/or mitochondrial pyruvate carrier 2 (Mpc2) to test the importance of these pathways in vivo. 

      Interestingly, deficiency of Gls alone showed clear antibody defects when ovalbumin was used as the immunogen, but not the hapten NP. For the latter response, defects in antibody titers and affinity were observed only when both Gls and either Mpc2 or Slc2a1 were deleted. These latter findings form the basis of the synthetic auxotrophy conclusion. The authors go on to test these conclusions further using in vitro differentiations, Seahorse assays, pharmacological inhibitors, and targeted quantification of specific metabolites and amino acids. Finally, the authors document reduced STAT3 and STAT1 phosphorylation in response to IL-21 and interferon (both type 1 and 2), respectively, when both glutaminolysis and mitochondrial pyruvate metabolism are prevented. 

      Strengths:

      (1) The main strength of the manuscript is the overall breadth of experiments performed. Orthogonal experiments are performed using genetic models, pharmacological inhibitors, in vitro assays, and in vivo experiments to support the claims. Multiple antigens are used as test immunogens--this is particularly important given the differing results. 

      (2) B cell metabolism is an area of interest but understudied relative to other cell types in the immune system. 

      (3) The importance of metabolic flexibility and caution when interpreting negative results is made clear from this study.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) All of the in vivo studies were done in the context of boosters at 3 weeks and recall responses 1 week later. This makes specific results difficult to interpret. Primary responses, including germinal centers, are still ongoing at 3 weeks after the initial immunization. Thus, untangling what proportion of the defects are due to problems in the primary vs. memory response is difficult.

      (2) Along these lines, the defects shown in Figure 3h-i may not be due to the authors' interpretation that Gls and Mpc2 are required for efficient plasma cell differentiation from memory B cells. This interpretation would only be correct if the absence of Gls/Mpc2 leads to preferential recruitment of low-affinity memory B cells into secondary plasma cells. The more likely interpretation is that ongoing primary germinal centers are negatively impacted by Gls and Mpc2 deficiency, and this, in turn, leads to reduced affinities of serum antibodies

      We provisionally plan to edit the wording of the conclusion a bit to add a possibility we consider unlikely to avoid a conclusion that MBCs bearing switched BCRs are affected once reactivated. We also will perform a new experiment to investigate, but unfortunately time before lab closure has been and remains our enemy both for performance and multiple replication of the work presented in Figure 3, panels h & i, and the related Supplemental Data (Supplemental Fig. 3a-j). Unfortunately, it will not be possible to do a memory experiment with recall immunization out at 8 weeks.  Despite the grant funding running out and institutional belt-tightening, however, we'll try to perform a new head-to-head comparison of 4 wk post-immunization with and without the boost at three weeks.

      The intriguing concern (points 1 & 2) provides a springboard for consideration of generalizations and simplifications. Germinal center durability is not at all monolithic, and instead is quite variable**. The premise (cognitive bias, perhaps?) in the interpretation is that in our previous work we find few if any GC B cells - NP-APC-binding or otherwise - above the background (non-immunized controls) three weeks after immunization with NP-ovalbumin in alum. Recognizing that it is not NP-carrier in alum as immunizations, we note for the readers and referee that Fig. 1 of the Taylor, Pape, & Jenkins paper considered above [PMID: 22370719] reported 10-fold more Ag-specific MBCs than GC B cells at day 29 post-immunization (the point at which the boost / recall challenge was performed in our Figure 3h, i).

      Viewed from that perspective, the surmise of the comment is that a major contribution to the differences in both all-affinity and high-affinity anti-NP IgG1 shown in Fig. 3i derives from the immunization at 4 wk stimulating GC B cells we cannot find as opposed to memory B cells. However, it is true that in the literature (especially with the experimentally different approach of transferring BCR-transgenic / knock-in versions of an NP-biased BCR) there may be meaningful pools of IgG1 and IgG2c GC B cells. Alternatively, our current reagents for immunizations may have become better at maintaining GC than those in the past - which we will try to test.

      The issue and question also relate to rates of output of plasma cells or rises in the serum concentrations of class-switched Ab. To this point, our prior experiences agree with the long-published data of the Kurosaki lab in Figure 3c of the Aiba et al paper noted above (Immunity, 2006) (and other such time courses). Readers can note that the IgG1 anti-NP response (alum adjuvant, as in our work) hits its plateau at 2 wk, and did not increase further from 2 to 3 wk. In other words, GC are on the decline and  Ab production has reached its plateau by the time of the 2nd immunization in Fig. 3h). 

      Assuming we understand the comment and line of reasoning correctly, we also lean towards disagreeing with the statement "This interpretation would only be correct if the absence of Gls/Mpc2 leads to preferential recruitment of low-affinity memory B cells into secondary plasma cells." Our evidence shows that both low-affinity as well as high-affinity anti-NP Ab (IgG1) went down as a result of combined gene-inactivation after the peak primary response (Fig. 3i). Recent papers show that affinity maturation is attributable to greater proliferation of plasmablasts with high-affinity BCR. Accordingly, the findings with loss of GLS and MPC function are quite consistent with the interpretation that much of the response after the second immunization draws on MBC differentiation into plasmablasta and then plasma cells, where the proliferative advantage of high-affinity cells is blunted by the impaired metabolism. The provisional plan, however, is to note the alternative, if less likely, interpretation proposed by the review.

      ** In some contexts, of course, especially certain viral infections or vaccination with lipid nanoparticles carrying modified mRNA, germinal centers are far more persistent; also, in humans even the seasonal flu vaccine **

      (3) The gating strategies for germinal centers and memory B cells in Supplemental Figure 2 are problematic, especially given that these data are used to claim only modest and/or statistically insignificant differences in these populations when Gls and Mpc2 are ablated. Neither strategy shows distinct flow cytometric populations, and it does not seem that the quantification focuses on antigen-specific cells.

      We will enhance these aspects of the presentation, using old and hopefully new data, but note for readers that many many other papers in the best journals show plots in which the separation of, say, GC-Tfh from overall Tfh is based on cut-off within what essentially is a continuous spectrum of emission as adjusted or compensated by the cytometer (spectral or conventional).

      Perhaps incorrectly, we omitted presenting data that included the results with NP-APC-staining - in part because within the GC B cell gate the frequencies of NP-binding events (GCB cells) were similar in double-knockout samples and controls. In practice, that would mean that the metabolic requirement applied about equally to NP+ and the total population. We will try to rectify this point in the revision.

      (4) Along these lines, the conclusions in Figure 6a-d may need to be tempered if the analysis was done on polyclonal, rather than antigen-specific cells. Alum induces a heavily type 2-biased response and is not known to induce much of an interferon signature. The authors' observations might be explained by the inclusion of other ongoing GCs unrelated to the immunization. 

      We will make sure the text is clear that the in vitro experiments do not represent GC B cells and that the RNA-seq data were not an Ag (SRBC)-specific subset.

      We also will try to work in a schematic along with expanding the Legends to make it more readily clear that the RNA-seq data (and hence the GSEA) involved immunizations with SRBC (not the alum / NP system which - it may be noted - in these experiments actually generated a robust IgG2c (type 1-driven) response along with the type 2-enhanced IgG1 response.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      In their manuscript, the authors investigate how glutaminolysis (GLS) and mitochondrial pyruvate import (MPC2) jointly shape B cell fate and the humoral immune response. Using inducible knockout systems and metabolic inhibitors, they uncover a "synthetic auxotrophy": When GLS activity/glutaminolysis is lost together with either GLUT1-mediated glucose uptake or MPC2, B cells fail to upregulate mitochondrial respiration, IL 21/STAT3 and IFN/STAT1 signaling is impaired, and the plasma cell output and antigen-specific antibody titers drop significantly. This work thus demonstrates the promotion of plasma cell differentiation and cytokine signaling through parallel activation of two metabolic pathways. The dataset is technically comprehensive and conceptually novel, but some aspects leave the in vivo and translational significance uncertain.

      Strengths:

      (1) Conceptual novelty: the study goes beyond single-enzyme deletions to reveal conditional metabolic vulnerabilities and fate-deciding mechanisms in B cells.

      (2) Mechanistic depth: the study uncovers a novel "metabolic bottleneck" that impairs mitochondrial respiration and elevates ROS, and directly ties these changes to cytokine-receptor signaling. This is both mechanistically compelling and potentially clinically relevant.

      (3) Breadth of models and methods: inducible genetics, pharmacology, metabolomics, seahorse assay, ELISpot/ELISA, RNA-seq, two immunization models.

      (4) Potential clinical angle: the synergy of CB839 with UK5099 and/or hydroxychloroquine hints at a druggable pathway targeting autoantibody-driven diseases.

      We agree and thank the referee for the positive comments and this succinct summary of what we view as contributions of the paper.

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) Physiological relevance of "synthetic auxotrophy"

      The manuscript demonstrates that GLS loss is only crippling when glucose influx or mitochondrial pyruvate import is concurrently reduced, which the authors name "synthetic auxotrophy". I think it would help readers to clarify the terminology more and add a concise definition of "synthetic auxotrophy" versus "synthetic lethality" early in the manuscript and justify its relevance for B cells.

      We will edit the Abstract, Introduction, and Discussion to try to do better on this score. Conscious of how expansive the prose and data are even in the original submission, we appear to have taken some shortcuts that we will try to rectify. Thank you for highlighting this need to improve on a key concept!

      That said, we punctiliously & perhaps pedantically encourage readers to be completely accurate, in that under one condition of immunization GLS loss substantially reduced the anti-ovalbumin response (Fig. 1, Fig. 2a-c). And for this provisional response, we will expand a bit on the notion that synthetic auxotrophy represents effects on differentiation that appear to go beyond and not simply to be selective death, even though decreased population expansion is observed and one cannot exclude some contribution of enhanced death in vivo. Finally, we will note that this comment of the review raises interesting semantic questions about what represents "physiological relevance" but leave it at that.

      While the overall findings, especially the subset specificity and the clinical implications, are generally interesting, the "synthetic auxotrophy" condition feels a little engineered.

      One can readily say that CAR-T cells are 'a little engineered' so it is a matter of balancing this perspective of the referee against the strengths they highlight in points 1, 2, and 4. In any case, we will probably try to expand and be more explicit in the Discussion of the revised manuscript.

      In brief, even were the money not all gone, we would not believe that expanding the heft of this already rather large manuscript and set of data would be appropriate. As matters stand, a basic new insight about metabolic flexibility and its limits leads to evidence of a way to reduce generation of Ab and a novel impairment of STAT transcription factor induction by several cytokine receptors. The vulnerability that could be tested in later work on B cell-dependent autoimmunity includes the capacity to test a compound that already has been to or through FDA phase II in patients together with an FDA-approved standard-of-care agent.

      Put a different way, the point is that a basic curiosity to understand why decreasing glucose influx did not have an even more profound effect than what was observed, combined with curiosity as to why glutaminolysis was dispensable in relatively standard vaccine-like models of immunize / boost, provided a springboard to identification of new vulnerabilities. As above, we appreciate being made aware that this point merits being made more explicit in the Discussion of the edited version.

      Therefore, the findings strongly raise the question of the likelihood of such a "double hit" in vivo and whether there are conditions, disease states, or drug regimens that would realistically generate such a "bottleneck".

      Hence, the authors should document or at least discuss whether GC or inflamed niches naturally show simultaneous downregulation/lack of glutamine and/or pyruvate. The authors should also aim to provide evidence that infections (e.g., influenza), hypoxia, treatments (e.g., rapamycin), or inflammatory diseases like lupus co-limit these pathways. 

      Again, we appreciate some 'licensing' to be more expansive and explicit, and will try to balance editing in such points against undue tedium or tendentiously speculative length in the Discussion. In particular, we will note that a clear, simple implication of the work is to highlight an imperative to test CB839 in lupus patients already on hydroxychloroquine as standard-of-care, and to suggest development of UK5099 (already tested many times in mouse models of cancer) to complement glutaminase inhibition. 

      As backdrop, we note that the failure to advance imaging mass spectrometry to the capacity to quantify relative or absolute (via nano-DESI) concentrations of nutrients in localized interstitia is a critical gap in the entire field. Techniques that sample the interstitial fluid of tumor masses or in our case LN as a work-around have yielded evidence that there can be meaningful limitations of glucose and glutamine, but it needs to be acknowledged that such findings may be very model-specific and, as can be the case with cutting-edge science, are not without controversy. That said, yes, we had found that hypoxia reduced glutamine uptake but given the norms of focused, tidy packages only reported on leucine in an earlier paper [PMID27501247; PMCID5161594].

      It would hence also be beneficial to test the CB839 + UK5099/HCQ combinations in a short, proof-of-concept treatment in vivo, e.g., shortly before and after the booster immunization or in an autoimmune model. Likewise, it may also be insightful to discuss potential effects of existing treatments (especially CB839, HCQ) on human memory B cell or PC pools.

      We certainly agree that the suggestions offered in this comment are important next steps and the right approach to test if the findings reported here translate toward the treatment of autoimmune diseases that involve B cells, interferons, and pathophysiology mediated by auto-Ab. As practical points, performance and replication of such studies would take more time than the year allotted for return of a revised manuscript to eLife and in any case neither funds nor a lab remain to do these important studies. 

      Concrete evidence for our concurrence was embodied in a grant application to NIH that was essential for keeping a lab and doing any such studies. [We note, as a suggestion to others, that an essential component of such studies would be to test the effects of these compounds on B cells from patients and mice with autoimmunity]. Perhaps unfortunately for SLE patients, the review panelists did not agree about the importance of such studies. However, it can be hoped that the patent-holder of CB839 (and perhaps other companies developing glutaminase inhibitors) will see this peer-reviewed pre-print and the public dialogue, and recognize how positive results might open a valuable contribution to mitigation of diseases such as SLE.

      (2) Cell survival versus differentiation phenotype

      Claims that the phenotypes (e.g., reduced PC numbers) are "independent of death" and are not merely the result of artificial cell stress would benefit from Annexin-V/active-caspase 3 analyses of GC B cells and plasmablasts. Please also show viability curves for inhibitor-treated cell

      This comment leads us to see that the wording on this point may have been overly terse in the interests of brevity, and thereby open to some misunderstanding. Accordingly, we will expand out the text of the Abstract and elsewhere in the manuscript, to be more clear. In addition, we will add in some data on the point, hopefully including some results of new experiments.

      To clarify in this public context, it is not that an increase in death (along with the reported decrease in cell cycling) can be or is excluded - and in fact it likely exists in vitro. The point is that beyond any such increase, and taking into account division number (since there is evidence that PC differentiation and output numbers involve a 'division-counting' mechanism), the frequencies of CD138+ cells and of ASCs among the viable cells are lower, as is the level of Prdm1-encoded mRNA even before the big increase in CD138+ cells in the population. 

      (3) Subset specificity of the metabolic phenotype

      Could the metabolic differences, mitochondrial ROS, and membrane-potential changes shown for activated pan-B cells (Figure 5) also be demonstrated ex vivo for KO mouse-derived GC B cells and plasma cells? This would also be insightful to investigate following NP-immunization (e.g., NP+ GC B cells 10 days after NP-OVA immunization).

      We agree that such data could be nice and add to the comprehensiveness of the work. We will try to scrounge the resources (time; money; human) to test this roughly as indicated. That said, we would note that the frequencies and hence numbers of NP+ GC B cells are so low that even in the flow cytometer we suspect there will not be enough "events" to rely on the results with DCFDA in the tiny sub-sub-subset. It also bears noting that reliable flow cytometric identification of the small NP-specific plasmablast/plasma cell subset amidst the overall population, little of which arose from immunization or after deletion of the floxed segments in B cells, would potentially be misleading.

      (4) Memory B cell gating strategy

      I am not fully convinced that the memory-B-cell gate in Supplementary Figure 2d is appropriate. The legend implies the population is defined simply as CD19+GL7-CD38+ (or CD19+CD38++?), with no further restriction to NP-binding cells. Such a gate could also capture naïve or recently activated B cells. From the descriptions in the figure and the figure legend, it is hard to verify that the events plotted truly represent memory B cells. Please clarify the full gating hierarchy and, ideally, restrict the MBC gate to NP+CD19+GL7-CD38+ B cells (or add additional markers such as CD80 and CD273). Generally, the manuscript would benefit from a more transparent presentation of gating strategies.

      We will further expand the supplemental data displays to include more of the gating and analytic scheme, and hope to be able to have performed new experiments and analyses (including additional markers) that could mitigate the concern noted here. In addition, we will include flow data from the non-immunized control mice that had been analyzed concurrently in the experiments illustrated in this Figure.

      Although it should be noted that the labeling indicated that the gating included the important criterion that cells be IgD- (Supplemental Fig. 2b), which excludes the vast majority of naive B cells, in principle marginal zone (MZ) B cells might fall within this gate. However, the MZ B population is unlikely to explain the differences shown in Supplemental Fig. 2b-d.

      (5) Deletion efficiency - [The] mRNA data show residual GLS/MPC2 transcripts (Supplementary Figure 8). Please quantify deletion efficiency in GC B cells and plasmablasts.

      Even were there resources to do this, the degree of reduction in target mRNA (Gls; Mpc2) renders this question superfluous.

      Are there likely to be some cells with only one, or even neither, allele converted from fl to D? Yes, but they would be a minor subset in light of the magnitude of mRNA reduction, in contrast to our published observations with Slc2a1. As to plasmablasts and plasma cells, the pre-existing populations make such an analysis misleading, while the scarcity of such cells recoverable with antigen capture techniques is so low as to make both RNA and genomic DNA analyses questionable.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper investigates the control signals that drive event model updating during continuous experience. The authors apply predictions from previously published computational models to fMRI data acquired while participants watched naturalistic video stimuli. They first examine the time course of BOLD pattern changes around human-annotated event boundaries, revealing pattern changes preceding the boundary in anterior temporal and then parietal regions, followed by pattern stabilization across many regions. The authors then analyze time courses around boundaries generated by a model that updates event models based on prediction error and another that uses prediction uncertainty. These analyses reveal overlapping but partially distinct dynamics for each boundary type, suggesting that both signals may contribute to event segmentation processes in the brain.

      Strengths:

      (1) The question addressed by this paper is of high interest to researchers working on event cognition, perception, and memory. There has been considerable debate about what kinds of signals drive event boundaries, and this paper directly engages with that debate by comparing prediction error and prediction uncertainty as candidate control signals.

      (2) The authors use computational models that explain significant variance in human boundary judgments, and they report the variance explained clearly in the paper.

      (3) The authors' method of using computational models to generate predictions about when event model updating should occur is a valuable mechanistic alternative to methods like HMM or GSBS, which are data-driven.

      (4) The paper utilizes an analysis framework that characterizes how multivariate BOLD pattern dissimilarity evolves before and after boundaries. This approach offers an advance over previous work focused on just the boundary or post-boundary points.

      We appreciate this reviewer’s recognition of the significance of this research problem, and of the value of the approach taken by this paper.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) While the paper raises the possibility that both prediction error and uncertainty could serve as control signals, it does not offer a strong theoretical rationale for why the brain would benefit from multiple (empirically correlated) signals. What distinct advantages do these signals provide? This may be discussed in the authors' prior modeling work, but is left too implicit in this paper.

      We added a brief discussion in the introduction highlighting the complementary advantages of prediction error and prediction uncertainty, and cited prior theoretical work that elaborates on this point. Specifically, we now note that prediction error can act as a reactive trigger, signaling when the current event model is no longer sufficient (Zacks et al., 2007). In contrast, prediction uncertainty is framed as proactive, allowing the system to prepare for upcoming changes even before they occur (Baldwin & Kosie, 2021; Kuperberg, 2021). Together, this makes clearer why these two signals could each provide complementary benefits for effective event model updating.

      "One potential signal to control event model updating is prediction error—the difference between the system’s prediction and what actually occurs. A transient increase in prediction error is a valid indicator that the current model no longer adequately captures the current activity. Event Segmentation Theory (EST; Zacks et al., 2007) proposes that event models are updated when prediction error increases beyond a threshold, indicating that the current model no longer adequately captures ongoing activity. A related but computationally distinct proposal is that prediction uncertainty (also termed "unpredictability"), in addition to error, serves as the control signal (Baldwin & Kosie, 2021). The advantage of relying on prediction uncertainty to detect event boundaries is that it is inherently proactive: the cognitive system can start looking for cues about what might come next before the next event starts (Baldwin & Kosie, 2021; Kuperberg, 2021)."

      (2) Boundaries derived from prediction error and uncertainty are correlated for the naturalistic stimuli. This raises some concerns about how well their distinct contributions to brain activity can be separated. The authors should consider whether they can leverage timepoints where the models make different predictions to make a stronger case for brain regions that are responsive to one vs the other.

      We addressed this concern by adding an analysis that explicitly tests the unique contributions of prediction error– and prediction uncertainty–driven boundaries to neural pattern shifts. In the revised manuscript, we describe how we fit a combined FIR model that included both boundary types as predictors and then compared this model against versions with only one predictor. This allowed us to identify the variance explained by each boundary type over and above the other. The results revealed two partially dissociable sets of brain regions sensitive to error- versus uncertainty-driven boundaries (see Figure S1), strengthening our argument that these signals make distinct contributions.

      "To account for the correlation between uncertainty-driven boundaries and error-driven boundaries, we also fitted a FIR model that predicts pattern dissimilarity from both types of boundaries (combined FIR) for each parcel. Then, we performed two likelihood ratio tests: combined FIR to error FIR, which measures the unique contribution of uncertainty boundaries to pattern dissimilarity, and combined FIR to uncertainty FIR, which measures the unique contribution of error boundaries to pattern dissimilarity. The analysis also revealed two dissociable sets of brain regions associated with each boundary type (see Figure S1)."

      (3) The authors refer to a baseline measure of pattern dissimilarity, which their dissimilarity measure of interest is relative to, but it's not clear how this baseline is computed. Since the interpretation of increases or decreases in dissimilarity depends on this reference point, more clarity is needed.

      We clarified how the FIR baseline is estimated in the methods section. Specifically, we now explain that the FIR coefficients should be interpreted relative to a reference level, which reflects the expected dissimilarity when timepoints are far from an event boundary. This makes it clear what serves as the comparison point for observed increases or decreases in dissimilarity.

      "The coefficients from the FIR model indicates changes relative to baseline, which can be conceptualized as the expected value when far from the boundary."

      (4) The authors report an average event length of ~20 seconds, and they also look at +20 and -20 seconds around each event boundary. Thus, it's unclear how often pre- and post-boundary timepoints are part of adjacent events. This complicates the interpretations of the reported time courses.

      This is related to reviewer's 2 comment, and it will be addressed below.

      (5) The authors describe a sequence of neural pattern shifts during each type of boundary, but offer little setup of what pattern shifts we might expect or why. They also offer little discussion of what cognitive processes these shifts might reflect. The paper would benefit from a more thorough setup for the neural results and a discussion that comments on how the results inform our understanding of what these brain regions contribute to event models.

      We thank the reviewer for this advice on how better to set the context for the different potential outcomes of the study. We expanded both the introduction and discussion to better set up expectations for neural pattern shifts and to interpret what these shifts may reflect. In the introduction, we now describe prior findings showing that sensory regions tend to update more quickly than higher-order multimodal regions (Baldassano et al., 2017; Geerligs et al., 2021, 2022), and we highlight that it remains unclear whether higher-order updates precede or follow those in lower-order regions. We also note that our analytic approach is well-suited to address this open question. In the discussion, we then interpret our results in light of this framework. Specifically, we describe how we observed early shifts in higher-order areas such as anterior temporal and prefrontal cortex, followed by shifts in parietal and dorsal attention regions closer to event boundaries. This pattern runs counter to the traditional bottom-up temporal hierarchy view and instead supports a model of top-down updating, where high-level representations are updated first and subsequently influence lower-level processing (Friston, 2005; Kuperberg, 2021). To make this interpretation concrete, we added an example: in a narrative where a goal is reached midway—for instance, a mystery solved before the story formally ends—higher-order regions may update the event representation at that point, and this updated model then cascades down to shape processing in lower-level regions. Finally, we note that the widespread stabilization of neural patterns after boundaries may signal the establishment of a new event model.

      Excerpt from Introduction:

      “More recently, multivariate approaches have provided insights into neural representations during event segmentation. One prominent approach uses hidden Markov models (HMMs) to detect moments when the brain switches from one stable activity pattern to another (Baldassano et al., 2017) during movie viewing; these periods of relative stability were referred to as "neural states" to distinguish them from subjectively perceived events. Sensory regions like visual and auditory cortex showed faster transitions between neural states. Multi-modal regions like the posterior medial cortex, angular gyrus, and intraparietal sulcus showed slower neural state shifts, and these shifts aligned with subjectively reported event boundaries. Geerligs et al. (2021, 2022) employed a different analytical approach called Greedy State Boundary Search (GSBS) to identify neural state boundaries. Their findings echoed the HMM results: short-lived neural states were observed in early sensory areas (visual, auditory, and somatosensory cortex), while longer-lasting states appeared in multi-modal regions, including the angular gyrus, posterior middle/inferior temporal cortex, precuneus, anterior temporal pole, and anterior insula. Particularly prolonged states were found in higher-order regions such as lateral and medial prefrontal cortex...

      The previous evidence about evoked responses at event boundaries indicates that these are dynamic phenomena evolving over many seconds, with different brain areas showing different dynamics (Ben-Yakov & Henson, 2018; Burunat et al., 2024; Kurby & Zacks, 2018; Speer et al., 2007; Zacks, 2010). Less is known about the dynamics of pattern shifts at event boundaries, because the HMM and GSBS analysis methods do not directly provide moment-by-moment measures of pattern shifts. For example, one question is whether shifts in higher-order regions precedes or follow shifts in lower-level regions. Both the spatial and temporal aspects of evoked responses and pattern shifts at event boundaries have the potential to provide evidence about potential control processes for event model updating.”

      Excerpt from Discussion:

      “We first characterized the neural signatures of human event segmentation by examining both univariate activity changes and multivariate pattern changes around subjectively identified event boundaries. Using multivariate pattern dissimilarity, we observed a structured progression of neural reconfiguration surrounding human-identified event boundaries. The largest pattern shifts were observed near event boundaries (~4.5s before) in dorsal attention and parietal regions; these correspond with regions identified by Geerligs et al. as shifting their patterns on an intermediate timescale (2022). We also observed smaller pattern shifts roughly 12 seconds prior to event boundaries in higher-order regions within anterior temporal cortex and prefrontal cortex, and these are slow-changing regions identified by Geerligs et al. (2022). This is puzzling. One prevalent proposal, based on the idea of a cortical hierarchy of increasing temporal receptive windows (TRWs), suggests that higher-order regions should update representations after lower-order regions do (Chang et al., 2021). In this view, areas with shorter TRWs (e.g., word-level processors) pass information upward, where it is integrated into progressively larger narrative units (phrases, sentences, events). This proposal predicts neural shifts in higher-order regions to follow those in lower-order regions. By contrast, our findings indicate the opposite sequence. Our findings suggest that the brain might engage in top-down event representation updating, with changes in coarser-grain representations propagating downward to influence finer-grain representations. (Friston, 2005; Kuperberg, 2021). For example, in a narrative where the main goal is achieved midway—such as a detective solving a mystery before the story formally ends—higher-order regions might update the overarching event representation at that point, and this updated model could then cascade down to reconfigure how lower-level regions process the remaining sensory and contextual details. In the period after a boundary (around +12 seconds), we found widespread stabilization of neural patterns across the brain, suggesting the establishment of a new event model. Future work could focus on understanding the mechanisms behind the temporal progression of neural pattern changes around event boundaries.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Tan et al. examined how multivoxel patterns shift in time windows surrounding event boundaries caused by both prediction errors and prediction uncertainty. They observed that some regions of the brain show earlier pattern shifts than others, followed by periods of increased stability. The authors combine their recent computational model to estimate event boundaries that are based on prediction error vs. uncertainty and use this to examine the moment-to-moment dynamics of pattern changes. I believe this is a meaningful contribution that will be of interest to memory, attention, and complex cognition research.

      Strengths:

      The authors have shown exceptional transparency in terms of sharing their data, code, and stimuli, which is beneficial to the field for future examinations and to the reproduction of findings. The manuscript is well written with clear figures. The study starts from a strong theoretical background to understand how the brain represents events and has used a well-curated set of stimuli. Overall, the authors extend the event segmentation theory beyond prediction error to include prediction uncertainty, which is an important theoretical shift that has implications in episodic memory encoding, the use of semantic and schematic knowledge, and attentional processing.

      We thank the reader for their support for our use of open science practices, and for their appreciation of the importance of incorporating prediction uncertainty into models of event comprehension.

      Weaknesses:

      The data presented is limited to the cortex, and subcortical contributions would be interesting to explore. Further, the temporal window around event boundaries of 20 seconds is approximately the length of the average event (21.4 seconds), and many of the observed pattern effects occur relatively distal from event boundaries themselves, which makes the link to the theoretical background challenging. Finally, while multivariate pattern shifts were examined at event boundaries related to either prediction error or prediction uncertainty, there was no exploration of univariate activity differences between these two different types of boundaries, which would be valuable.

      The fact that we observed neural pattern shifts well before boundaries was indeed unexpected, and we now offer a more extensive interpretation in the discussion section. Specifically, we added text noting that shifts emerged in higher-order anterior temporal and prefrontal regions roughly 12 seconds before boundaries, whereas shifts occurred in lower-level dorsal attention and parietal regions closer to boundaries. This sequence contrasts with the traditional bottom-up temporal hierarchy view and instead suggests a possible top-down updating mechanism, in which higher-order representations reorganize first and propagate changes to lower-level areas (Friston, 2005; Kuperberg, 2021). (See excerpt for Reviewer 1’s comment #5.)

      With respect to univariate activity, we did not find strong differences between error-driven and uncertainty-driven boundaries. This makes the multivariate analyses particularly informative for detecting differences in neural pattern dynamics. To support further exploration, we have also shared the temporal progression of univariate BOLD responses on OpenNeuro for interested researchers.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The aim of this study was to investigate the temporal progression of the neural response to event boundaries in relation to uncertainty and error. Specifically, the authors asked (1) how neural activity changes before and after event boundaries, (2) if uncertainty and error both contribute to explaining the occurrence of event boundaries, and (3) if uncertainty and error have unique contributions to explaining the temporal progression of neural activity.

      Strengths:

      One strength of this paper is that it builds on an already validated computational model. It relies on straightforward and interpretable analysis techniques to answer the main question, with a smart combination of pattern similarity metrics and FIR. This combination of methods may also be an inspiration to other researchers in the field working on similar questions. The paper is well written and easy to follow. The paper convincingly shows that (1) there is a temporal progression of neural activity change before and after an event boundary, and (2) event boundaries are predicted best by the combination of uncertainty and error signals.

      We thank the reviewer for their thoughtful and supportive comments, particularly regarding the use of the computational model and the analysis approaches.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The current analysis of the neural data does not convincingly show that uncertainty and prediction error both contribute to the neural responses. As both terms are modelled in separate FIR models, it may be that the responses we see for both are mostly driven by shared variance. Given that the correlation between the two is very high (r=0.49), this seems likely. The strong overlap in the neural responses elicited by both, as shown in Figure 6, also suggests that what we see may mainly be shared variance. To improve the interpretability of these effects, I think it is essential to know whether uncertainty and error explain similar or unique parts of the variance. The observation that they have distinct temporal profiles is suggestive of some dissociation, but not as convincing as adding them both to a single model.

      We appreciate this point. It is closely related to Reviewer 1's comment 2; please refer to our response above.

      (2) The results for uncertainty and error show that uncertainty has strong effects before or at boundary onset, while error is related to more stabilization after boundary onset. This makes me wonder about the temporal contribution of each of these. Could it be the case that increases in uncertainty are early indicators of a boundary, and errors tend to occur later?

      We also share the intuition that increases in uncertainty are early indicators of a boundary, and errors tend to occur later. If that is the case, we would expect some lags between prediction uncertainty and prediction error. We examined lagged correlation between prediction uncertainty and prediction error, and the optimal lag is 0 for both uncertainty-driven and error-driven models. This indicates that when prediction uncertainty rises, prediction error also simultaneously rises.

      Author response image 1.

      (3) Given that there is a 24-second period during which the neural responses are shaped by event boundaries, it would be important to know more about the average distance between boundaries and the variability of this distance. This will help establish whether the FIR model can properly capture a return to baseline.

      We have added details about the distribution of event lengths. Specifically, we now report that the mean length of subjectively identified events was 21.4 seconds (median 22.2 s, SD 16.1 s). For model-derived boundaries, the average event lengths were 28.96 seconds for the uncertainty-driven model and 24.7 seconds for the error-driven model.

      "For each activity, a separate group of 30 participants had previously segmented each movie to identify fine-grained event boundaries (Bezdek et al., 2022). The mean event length was 21.4 s (median 22.2 s, SD 16.1 s). Mean event lengths for uncertainty-driven model and error-driven model were 28.96s, and 24.7s, respectively."

      (4) Given that there is an early onset and long-lasting response of the brain to these event boundaries, I wonder what causes this. Is it the case that uncertainty or errors already increase at 12 seconds before the boundaries occur? Or if there are other makers in the movie that the brain can use to foreshadow an event boundary? And if uncertainty or errors do increase already 12 seconds before an event boundary, do you see a similar neural response at moments with similar levels of error or uncertainty, which are not followed by a boundary? This would reveal whether the neural activity patterns are specific to event boundaries or whether these are general markers of error and uncertainty.

      We appreciate this point; it is similar to reviewer 2’s comment 2. Please see our response to that comment above.

      (5) It is known that different brain regions have different delays of their BOLD response. Could these delays contribute to the propagation of the neural activity across different brain areas in this study?

      Our analyses use ±20 s FIR windows, and the key effects we report include shifts ~12s before boundaries in higher-order cortex and ~4.5s pre-boundary in dorsal attention/parietal areas. Given the literature above, region-dependent BOLD delays are much smaller (~1–2s) than the temporal structure we observe (Taylor et al., 2018), making it unlikely that HRF lag alone explains our multi-second, region-specific progression.

      (6) In the FIR plots, timepoints -12, 0, and 12 are shown. These long intervals preclude an understanding of the full temporal progression of these effects.

      For page length purposes, we did not include all timepoints. We uploaded an animation of all timepoints in Openneuro for interested researchers.

      References

      Taylor, A. J., Kim, J. H., & Ress, D. (2018). Characterization of the hemodynamic response function across the majority of human cerebral cortex. NeuroImage, 173, 322–331. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2018.02.061

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors attempt to devise general rules for aptamer design based on structure and sequence features. The main system they are testing is an aptamer targeting a viral sequence.

      Strengths:

      The method combines a series of well-established protocols, including docking, MD, and a lot of system-specific knowledge, to design several new versions of the Ta aptamer with improved binding affinity.

      We thank the reviewer for this accurate summary and for recognizing the strength of our integrated computational–experimental workflow in improving aptamer affinity. We will emphasize this contribution more clearly in the revised Introduction.

      Weaknesses:

      The approach requires a lot of existing knowledge and, impo rtantly, an already known aptamer, which presumably was found with SELEX. In addition, although the aptamer may have a stronger binding affinity, it is not clear if any of it has any additional useful properties such as stability, etc.

      Thanks for these critical comments.

      (1) On the reliance on a known aptamer: We agree that our CAAMO framework is designed as a post-SELEX optimization platform rather than a tool for de novo discovery. Its primary utility lies in rationally enhancing the affinity of existing aptamers that may not yet be sequence-optimal, thereby complementing experimental technologies such as SELEX. In the revised manuscript, we plan to clarify this point more explicitly in both the Introduction and Discussion sections, emphasizing that the propose CAAMO framework is intended to serve as a complementary strategy that accelerates the iterative optimization of lead aptamers.

      (2) On stability and developability: We also appreciate the reviewer’s important reminder that affinity alone is not sufficient for therapeutic development. We acknowledge that the present study has focused mainly on affinity optimization, and properties such as nuclease resistance, structural stability, and overall developability were not evaluated. In the revised manuscript, we will add a dedicated section highlighting the critical importance of these characteristics and outlining them as key priorities for our future research efforts.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript proposes a workflow for discovering and optimizing RNA aptamers, with application in the optimization of a SARS-CoV-2 RBD. The authors took a previously identified RNA aptamer, computationally docked it into one specific RBD structure, and searched for variants with higher predicted affinity. The variants were subsequently tested for RBD binding using gel retardation assays and competition with antibodies, and one was found to be a stronger binder by about three-fold than the founding aptamer. Overall, this would be an interesting study if it were performed with truly high-affinity aptamers, and specificity was shown for RBD or several RBD variants.

      Strengths:

      The computational workflow appears to mostly correctly find stronger binders, though not de novo binders.

      We thank the reviewer for the clear summary and for acknowledging that our workflow effectively prioritizes stronger binders.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Antibody competition assays are reported with RBD at 40 µM, aptamer at 5 µM, and a titration of antibody between 0 and 1.2 µg. This approach does not make sense. The antibody concentration should be reported in µM. An estimation of the concentration is 0-8 pmol (from 0-1.2 µg), but that's not a concentration, so it is unknown whether enough antibody molecules were present to saturate all RBD molecules, let alone whether they could have displaced all aptamers.

      Thanks for your insightful comment. We have calculated that 0–1.2 µg antibody corresponds to a final concentration range of 0–1.6 µM (see Author response image 1). In practice, 1.2 µg was the maximum amount of commercial antibody that could be added under the conditions of our assay. In the revised manuscript, we plan to report all antibody quantities in molar concentrations in the Materials and Methods section for clarity and rigor.

      Author response image 1.<br /> Estimation of antibody concentration. Assuming a molecular weight of 150 kDa, dissolving 1.2 µg of antibody in a 5 µL reaction volume results in a final concentration of 1.6 µM.<br />

      As shown in Figure 5D of the main text, the purpose of the antibody–aptamer competition assay was not to achieve full saturation but rather to compare the relative competitive binding of the optimized aptamer (Ta<sup>G34C</sup>) versus the parental aptamer (Ta). Molecular interactions at this scale represent a dynamic equilibrium of binding and dissociation. While the antibody concentration may not have been sufficient to saturate all available RBD molecules, the experimental results clearly reveal the competitive binding behavior that distinguishes the two aptamers. Specifically, two consistent trends emerged:

      (1) Across all antibody concentrations, the free RNA band for Ta was stronger than that of Ta<sup>G34C</sup>, while the RBD–RNA complex band of the latter was significantly stronger, indicating that Ta<sup>G34C</sup>bound more strongly to RBD.

      (2) For Ta, increasing antibody concentration progressively reduced the RBD–RNA complex band, consistent with antibody displacing the aptamer. In contrast, for Ta<sup>G34C</sup>, the RBD–RNA complex band remained largely unchanged across all tested antibody concentrations, suggesting that the antibody was insufficient to displace Ta<sup>G34C</sup> from the complex.

      Together, these observations support the conclusion that Ta<sup>G34C</sup> exhibits markedly stronger binding to RBD than the parental Ta aptamer, in line with the predictions and objectives of our CAAMO optimization framework.

      (2) These are not by any means high-affinity aptamers. The starting sequence has an estimated (not measured, since the titration is incomplete) KD of 110 µM. That's really the same as non-specific binding for an interaction between an RNA and a protein. This makes the title of the manuscript misleading. No high-affinity aptamer is presented in this study. If the docking truly presented a bound conformation of an aptamer to a protein, a sub-micromolar Kd would be expected, based on the number of interactions that they make.

      In fact, our starting sequence (Ta) is a high-affinity aptamer, and then the optimized sequences (such as Ta<sup>G34C</sup>) with enhanced affinity are undoubtedly also high-affinity aptamers. See descriptions below:

      (1) Origin and prior characterization of Ta. The starting aptamer Ta (referred to as RBD-PB6-Ta in the original publication by Valero et al., PNAS 2021, doi:10.1073/pnas.2112942118) was selected through multiple positive rounds of SELEX against SARS-CoV-2 RBD, together with counter-selection steps to eliminate non-specific binders. In that study, Ta was reported to bind RBD with an IC₅₀ of ~200 nM as measured by biolayer interferometry (BLI), supporting its high affinity and specificity.

      (2) Methodological differences between EMSA and BLI measurements. We acknowledge that the discrepancy between our obtained binding affinity (K<sub>d</sub> = 110 µM) and the previously reported one (IC₅₀ ~ 200 nM) for the same Ta sequence arises primarily from methodological and experimental differences between EMSA and BLI. Namely, different experimental measurement methods can yield varied binding affinity values. While EMSA may have relatively low measurement precision, its relatively simple procedures were the primary reason for its selection in this study. Particularly, our framework (CAAMO) is designed not as a tool for absolute affinity determination, but as a post-SELEX optimization platform that prioritizes relative changes in binding affinity under a consistent experimental setup. Thus, the central aim of our work is to demonstrate that CAAMO can reliably identify variants, such as Ta<sup>G34C</sup>, that bind more strongly than the parental sequence under identical assay conditions.

      (3) Evidence of specific binding in our assays. We emphasize that the binding observed in our EMSA experiments reflects genuine aptamer–protein interactions. As shown in Figure 2G of the main text, a control RNA (Tc) exhibited no detectable binding to RBD, whereas Ta produced a clear binding curve, confirming that the interaction is specific rather than non-specific.

      (3) The binding energies estimated from calculations and those obtained from the gel-shift experiments are vastly different, as calculated from the Kd measurements, making them useless for comparison, except for estimating relative affinities.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important point. CAAMO was developed as a post-SELEX optimization tool with the explicit goal of predicting relative affinity changes (ΔΔG) rather than absolute binding free energies (ΔG). Empirically, CAAMO correctly predicted the direction of affinity change for 5 out of 6 designed variants (e.g., ΔΔG < 0 indicates enhanced binding free energy relative to WT); such predictive power for relative ranking is highly valuable for prioritizing candidates for experimental testing. Our prior work on RNA–protein interactions likewise supports the reliability of relative affinity predictions (see: Nat Commun 2023, doi:10.1038/s41467-023-39410-8). In the revised manuscript we will explicitly state that the primary utility of CAAMO is to accurately predict affinity trends and to rank variants for follow-up, and we will moderate any statements that could be interpreted as claims about precise absolute ΔΔG values.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study examined the changes in ATL GABA levels induced by cTBS and its relationship with BOLD signal changes and performance in a semantic task. The findings suggest that the increase in ATL GABA levels induced by cTBS is associated with a decrease in BOLD signal. The relationship between ATL GABA levels and semantic task performance is nonlinear, and more specifically, the authors propose that the relationship is an inverted U-shaped relationship.

      Strengths:

      The findings of the research regarding the increase of GABA and decrease of BOLD caused by cTBS, as well as the correlation between the two, appear to be reliable. This should be valuable for understanding the biological effects of cTBS.

      Weakness:

      I am pleased to see the authors' feedback on my previous questions and suggestions, and I believe the additional data analysis they have added is helpful. Here are my reserved concerns and newly discovered issues.

      (1) Regarding the Inverted U-Shaped Curve In the revised manuscript, the authors have accepted some of my suggestions and conducted further analysis, which is now presented in Figure 3B. These results provide partial support for the authors' hypothesis. However, I still believe that the data from this study hardly convincingly support an inverted U-shaped distribution relationship.

      The authors stated in their response, "it is challenging to determine the optimal level of ATL GABA," but I think this is achievable. From Figures 4C and 4D, the ATL GABA levels corresponding to the peak of the inverted U-shaped curve fall between 85 and 90. In my understanding, this can be considered as the optimal level of ATL GABA estimated based on the existing data and the inverted U-shaped curve relationship. However, in the latter half of the inverted U-shaped curve, there are quite few data points, and such a small number of data points hardly provides reliable support for the quantitative relationship in the latter half of the curve. I suggest that the authors should at least explicitly acknowledge this and be cautious in drawing conclusions. I also suggest that the authors consider fitting the data with more types of non-linear relationships, such as a ceiling effect (a combination of a slope and a horizontal line), or a logarithmic curve.

      We appreciate R1’s comments. Inverted U-shaped relationships are well-established in neuroscience, particularly in the context of neurotransmitter concentrations (e.g., dopamine, acetylcholine, noradrenaline) and their influence on cognitive functions such as working memory and cognitive control (Aston-Jones & Cohen., 2005; Cools & D'Esposito., 2011; Vijayraghavan et al., 2007; He & Zempel., 2013). Recently, Ferri et al. (2017) demonstrated an inverted U-shaped relationship between excitation-inhibition balance (EIB: the ratio of Glx and GABA) and multisensory integration, showing that both excessive and insufficient inhibition negatively impact functionality. Given that GABA is the brain’s primary inhibitory neurotransmitter, our findings suggest that ATL GABA may play a similar regulatory role in semantic memory function.

      While our statistical modelling approach demonstrated that the inverted U-shaped function was the best-fitting model for our current data in explaining the relationship between ATL GABA and semantic memory, we acknowledge the limitation of having fewer data points in the latter half (right side) of the curve, where excessive ATL GABA levels are associated with poorer semantic performance. Following R1’s suggestion, we have explicitly acknowledged this limitation in the revised manuscript and exercised caution in our discussion.

      Discussion, p.17, line 408

      "However, our findings should be interpreted with caution due to the limitation of having fewer data points in the latter half (right side) of the inverted U-shaped curve. Future studies incorporating GABA agonists could help further validate and refine these findings."

      Following R1’s latter suggestion, we tested a logarithmic curve model. The results showed significant relationships between ATL GABA and semantic performance (R<sup>2</sup> = 0.544, p < 0.001) and between cTBS-induced changes in ATL GABA and semantic performance (R<sup>2</sup> = 0.202, p < 0.001). However, the quadratic (inverted U-shaped) model explained more variance than the logarithmic model, as indicated by a higher R<sup>2</sup> and lower BIC. Model comparisons further confirmed that the inverted U-shaped model provided the best fit for both ATL GABA in relation to semantic performance (Fig. 4C) and cTBS-induced ATL GABA changes in relation to semantic function (Fig. 4D).

      Author response table 1.

      (2) In Figure 2F, the authors demonstrated a strong practice effect in this study, which to some extent offsets the decrease in behavioral performance caused by cTBS. Therefore, I recommend that the authors give sufficient consideration to the practice effect in the data analysis.

      One issue is the impact of the practice effect on the classification of responders and non-responders. Currently, most participants are classified as non-responders, suggesting that the majority of the population may not respond to the cTBS used in this study. This greatly challenges the generalizability of the experimental conclusions. However, the emergence of so many non-responders is likely due to the prominent practice effect, which offsets part of the experimental effect. If the practice effect is excluded, the number of responders may increase. The authors might estimate the practice effect based on the vertex simulation condition and reclassify participants after excluding the influence of the practice effect.

      Another issue is that considering the significant practice effect, the analysis in Figure 4D, which mixes pre- and post-test data, may not be reliable.

      We appreciate Reviewer 1’s thoughtful comments regarding the practice effect and its potential impact on our findings. Our previous analysis revealed a strong practice effect on reaction time (RT), with participants performing tasks faster in the POST session, regardless of task condition (Fig. S3). Given our hypothesis that inhibitory ATL cTBS would disrupt semantic task performance, we accounted for this by using inverse efficiency (IE), which combines accuracy and RT. This analysis demonstrated that ATL cTBS disrupted semantic task performance compared to both control stimulation (vertex) and control tasks, despite the practice effect (i.e., faster RT in the POST session), thereby supporting our hypothesis. These findings may suggest that the effects of ATL cTBS were more subtly reflected in semantic task accuracy rather than RT.

      Regarding inter-individual variability in response to rTMS/TBS, prior studies have shown that 50–70% of participants are non-responders, either do not respond or respond in an unexpected manner (Goldsworthy et al., 2014; Hamada et al., 2013; Hinder et al., 2014; Lopez-Alonso et al., 2014; Maeda et al., 2000a; Müller-Dahlhaus et al., 2008). Our previous study (Jung et al., 2022) using the same semantic task and cTBS protocol was the first to explore TBS-responsiveness variability in semantic memory, where 12 out of 20 participants (60%) were classified as responders. The proportion of responders and non-responders in the current study aligns with previous findings, suggesting that this variability is expected in TBS research.

      However, we acknowledge R1’s concern that the strong practice effect may have influenced responder classification. To address this, we estimated the practice effect using the vertex stimulation condition and reclassified participants accordingly by adjusting ATL stimulation performance (IE) relative to vertex stimulation performance (IE). This reclassification identified nine responders (an increase of two), aligning with the typical responder proportion (52%) reported in the TBS literature. Overall, we replicated the previous findings with improved statistical robustness.

      A 2×2×2 ANOVA was conducted with task (semantic vs. control) and session (PRE vs. POST) as within-subject factors, and group (responders vs. non-responders) as a between-subject factor. The analysis revealed a significant interaction between the session and group (F<sub>1, 15</sub> = 10.367, p = 0.006), a marginally significant interaction between the session and task (F<sub>1, 15</sub> = 4.370, p = 0.054), and a significant 3-way interaction between the session, task, and group (F<sub>1, 15</sub> = 7.580, p = 0.015). Post hoc t-tests showed a significant group difference in semantic task performance following ATL stimulation (t = 2.349, p = 0.033). Post hoc paired t-test demonstrated that responders exhibited poorer semantic task performance following the ATL cTBS (t = -5.281, p < 0.001), whereas non-responders showed a significant improvement (t = 3.206, p = 0.007) (see Figure. 3A).

      Notably, no differences were observed between responders and non-responders in the control task performance across pre- and post-stimulation sessions, confirming that the practice effect was successfully controlled (Figure. 3B).

      We performed a 2 x 2 ANOVA with session (pre vs. post) as a within subject factor and with group (responders vs. non-responders) as a between subject factor to examine the effects of group in ATL GABA levels. The results revealed a significant main effect of session (F<sub>1, 14</sub> = 39.906, p < 0.001) and group (F<sub>1, 14</sub> = 9.677, p = 0.008). Post hoc paired t-tests on ATL GABA levels showed a significant increase in regional ATL GABA levels following ATL stimulation for both responders (t = -3.885, p = 0.002) and non-responders (t = -4.831, p = 0.001). Furthermore, we replicated our previous finding that baseline GABA levels were significantly higher in responders compared to non-responders (t = 2.816, p = 0.007) (Figure. 3C). This pattern persisted in the post-stimulation session (t = 2.555, p = 0.011) (Figure. 3C).

      Accordingly, we have revised the Methods and Materials (p 26, line 619), Results (p11, line 233-261), and Figure 3.

      (3) The analysis in Figure 3A has a double dipping issue. Suppose we generate 100 pairs of random numbers as pre- and post-test scores, and then group the data based on whether the scores decrease or increase; the pre-test scores of the group with decreased scores will have a very high probability of being higher than those of the group with increased scores. Therefore, the findings in Figure 3A seem to be meaningless.

      Yes, we agreed with R1’s comments. However, Figure 3A illustrates interindividual responsiveness patterns, while Figure 3B demonstrates that these results account for practice effects, incorporating new analyses.

      (4) The authors use IE as a behavioral measure in some analyses and use accuracy in others. I recommend that the authors adopt a consistent behavioral measure.

      We appreciate Reviewer 1’s suggestion. In examining the relationship between ATL GABA and semantic task performance, we have found that only semantic accuracy—not reaction time (RT) or inverse efficiency (IE)—shows a significant positive correlation and regression with ATL GABA levels and semantic task-induced ATL activation, both in our previous study (Jung et al., 2017) and in the current study. ATL GABA levels were not correlated with semantic RT (Jung et al., 2017: r = 0.34, p = 0.14, current study: r = 0.26, p = 0.14). It should be noted that there were no significant correlations between ATL GABA levels and semantic inverse efficiency (IE) in both studies (Jung et al., 2017: r = 0.13, p = 0.62, current study: r = 0.22, p = 0.44). As a result, we found no significant linear and non-linear relationship between ATL GABA levels and RT (linear function R<sup>2</sup> = 0.21, p =0.45, quadratic function: R<sup>2</sup> = 0.17, p = 0.21) and between ATL GABA levels and IE (linear function R<sup>2</sup> = 0.24, p =0.07, quadratic function: R<sup>2</sup> = 2.24, p = 0.12).

      The absence of a meaningful relationship between ATL GABA and semantic RT or IE may be due to the following reasons: 1) RT is primarily associated with premotor and motor activation during semantic processing rather than ATL activation; 2) ATL GABA is likely to play a key role in refining distributed semantic representations through lateral inhibition, which sharpens the activated representation (Jung et al., 2017; Liu et al. 2011; Isaacson & Scanziani., 2011). This sharpening process may contribute to more accurate semantic performance (Jung et al., 2017). In our semantic task, for example, when encountering a camel (Fig. 1B), multiple semantic features (e.g., animal, brown, desert, sand, etc.) are activated. To correctly identify the most relevant concept (cactus), irrelevant associations (tree) must be suppressed—a process that likely relies on inhibitory mechanisms. Given this theoretical framework, we have used accuracy as the primary measure of semantic performance to elucidate the ATL GABA function.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors combined inhibitory neurostimulation (continuous theta-burst stimulation, cTBS) with subsequent MRI measurements to investigate the impact of inhibition of the left anterior temporal lobe (ATL) on task-related activity and performance during a semantic task and link stimulation-induced changes to the neurochemical level by including MR spectroscopy (MRS). cTBS effects in the ATL were compared with a control site in the vertex. The authors found that relative to stimulation of the vertex, cTBS significantly increased the local GABA concentration in the ATL. cTBS also decreased task-related semantic activity in the ATL and potentially delayed semantic task performance by hindering a practice effect from pre to post. Finally, pooled data with their previous MRS study suggest an inverted u-shape between GABA concentration and behavioral performance. These results help to better understand the neuromodulatory effects of non-invasive brain stimulation on task performance.

      Strengths:

      Multimodal assessment of neurostimulation effects on the behavioral, neurochemical, and neural levels. In particular, the link between GABA modulation and behavior is timely and potentially interesting.

      Weaknesses:

      The analyses are not sound. Some of the effects are very weak and not all conclusions are supported by the data since some of the comparisons are not justified. There is some redundancy with a previous paper by the same authors, so the novelty and contribution to the field are overall limited. A network approach might help here.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors used cTBS TMS, magnetic resonance spectroscopy (MRS), and functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) as the main methods of investigation. Their data show that cTBS modulates GABA concentration and task-dependent BOLD in the ATL, whereby greater GABA increase following ATL cTBS showed greater reductions in BOLD changes in ATL. This effect was also reflected in the performance of the behavioural task response times, which did not subsume to practice effects after AL cTBS as opposed to the associated control site and control task. This is in line with their first hypothesis. The data further indicates that regional GABA concentrations in the ATL play a crucial role in semantic memory because individuals with higher (but not excessive) GABA concentrations in the ATLs performed better on the semantic task. This is in line with their second prediction. Finally, the authors conducted additional analyses to explore the mechanistic link between ATL inhibitory GABAergic action and semantic task performance. They show that this link is best captured by an inverted U-shaped function as a result of a quadratic linear regression model. Fitting this model to their data indicates that increasing GABA levels led to better task performance as long as they were not excessively low or excessively high. This was first tested as a relationship between GABA levels in the ATL and semantic task performance; then the same analyses were performed on the pre and post-cTBS TMS stimulation data, showing the same pattern. These results are in line with the conclusions of the authors.

      Comments on revisions:

      The authors have comprehensively addressed my comments from the first round of review, and I consider most of their answers and the steps they have taken satisfactorily. Their insights prompted me to reflect further on my own knowledge and thinking regarding the ATL function.

      I do, however, have an additional and hopefully constructive comment regarding the point made about the study focusing on the left instead of bilateral ATL. I appreciate the methodological complexities and the pragmatic reasons underlying this decision. Nevertheless, briefly incorporating the justification for this decision into the manuscript would have been beneficial for clarity and completeness. The presented argument follows an interesting logic; however, despite strong previous evidence supporting it, the approach remains based on an assumption. Given that the authors now provide the group-level fMRI results captured more comprehensively in Supplementary Figure 2, where the bilateral pattern of fMRI activation can be observed in the current data, the authors could have strengthened their argument by asserting that the activation related to the given semantic association task in this data was bilateral. This would imply that the TMS effects and associated changes in GABA should be similar for both sites. Furthermore, it is worth noting the approach taken by Pobric et al. (2007, PNAS), who stimulated a site located 10 mm posterior to the tip of the left temporal pole along the middle temporal gyrus (MTG) and not the bilateral ATL.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s constructive comment regarding the focus on the left ATL rather than bilateral ATL in our study. Accordingly, we have added the following paragraph in the Supplementary Information.

      “Justification of target site selection and cTBS effects

      Evidence suggests that bilateral ATL systems contribute to semantic representation (for a review, see Lambon Ralph., 2017). Consistent with this, our semantic task induced bilateral ATL activation (Fig. S2). Thus, stimulating both left and right ATL could provide a more comprehensive understanding of cTBS effects and its GABAergic function.

      Previous rTMS studies have applied inhibitory stimulation to the left vs. right ATL, demonstrating that stimulation at either site significantly disrupted semantic task performance (Pobric et al., 2007, PNAS; Pobric et al., 2010, Neuropsychologia; Lambon Ralph et al., 2009, Cerebral Cortex). Importantly, these studies reported no significant difference in rTMS effects between left and right ATL stimulation, suggesting that stimulating either hemisphere produces comparable effects on semantic processing. In the current study, we combined cTBS with multimodal imaging to investigate its effects on the ATL. Given our study design constraints (including the need for a control site, control task, and control stimulation) and limitations in scanning time, we selected the left ATL as the target region. This choice also aligned with the MRS voxel placement used in our previous study (Jung et al., 2017), allowing us to combine datasets and further investigate GABAergic function in the ATL. Accordingly, cTBS was applied to the peak coordinate of the left ventromedial ATL (MNI -36, -15, -30) as identified by previous fMRI studies (Binney et al., 2010; Visser et al., 2012).

      Given that TMS pulses typically penetrate 2–4 cm, we acknowledge the challenge of reaching deeper ventromedial ATL regions. However, our findings indicate that cTBS effectively modulated ATL function, as evidenced by reduced task-induced regional activity, increased ATL GABA concentrations, and poorer semantic performance, confirming that TMS pulses successfully influenced the target region. To further validate these effects, we conducted an ROI analysis centred on the ventromedial ATL (MNI -36, -15, -30), which revealed a significant reduction in ATL activity during semantic processing following ATL stimulation (t = -2.43, p = 0.014) (Fig. S7). This confirms that cTBS successfully modulated ATL activity at the intended target coordinate.”

      We appreciate R3's comment regarding the approach taken by Pobric et al. (2007, PNAS), who stimulated a site 10 mm posterior to the tip of the left temporal pole along the middle temporal gyrus (MTG). This approach has been explicitly discussed in our previous papers and reviews (e.g., Lambon Ralph, 2014, Proc. Royal Society B). Our earlier use of lateral ATL stimulation at this location (Pobric et al. 2007; Lambon Ralph et al. 2009; Pobric et al. 2010) was based on its alignment with the broader ATL region commonly atrophied in semantic dementia (cf. Binney et al., 2010 for a direct comparison of SD atrophy, fMRI data and the TMS region). Since these original ATL TMS investigations, a series of distortion-corrected or distortion-avoiding fMRI studies (e.g., Binney et al 2010; Visser et al, various, Hoffman et al., various; Jackson et al., 2015) have demonstrated graded activation differences across the ATL. While weaker activation is present at the original lateral ATL (MTG) stimulation site, the peak activation is maximal in the ventromedial ATL—a finding that was also observed in the current study. Accordingly, we selected the ventromedial ATL as our target site for stimulation.

      Following these points, we have revised the manuscript in the Methods and Materials.

      Transcranial magnetic stimulation p23, line 525-532,

      “Previous rTMS studies targeted a lateral ATL site 10 mm posterior to the temporal pole on the middle temporal gyrus (MTG) (Pobric et al. 2007; Lambon Ralph et al. 2009; Pobric et al. 2010), aligning with the broader ATL region typically atrophied in semantic dementia  (Binney et al. 2010). However, distortion-corrected fMRI studies (Binney et al. 2010; Visser et al. 2012) have revealed graded activation differences across the ATL, with peak activation in the ventromedial ATL. Based on these findings, we selected the target site in the left ATL (MNI -36, -15, -30) from a prior distortion-corrected fMRI study (Binney et al. 2010; Visser et al. 2012 that employed the same tasks as our study (for further details, see the Supplementary Information).”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The authors have responded to all my comments and I found most of the responses reasonable and sufficient. However, I have one remaining point: I pointed out before that the scope of this paper is somehow narrow and asked for a network analysis. I found the response to my question somehow puzzling since the authors write:

      "However, it is important to note that we did not find any significant correlations between ATL GABA changes and cTBS-induced changes in the functional connectivity. Consequently, we are currently preparing another paper that specifically addresses the network-level changes induced by ATL cTBS."

      I don't understand the logic here. Even in the absence of significant correlations between ATL GABA changes and cTBS-induced changes in connectivity, it would be interesting to know how baseline connectivity is correlated with the induced changes. I am not sure if it is adequate to squeeze another paper out of the dataset instead of reporting it here as suggested.

      We apologise that our previous response was not clear. To examine cTBS-induced network-level changes, we conducted ROI analyses targeting key semantic regions, including the bilateral ATL, inferior frontal gyrus (IFG), and posterior middle temporal gyrus (pMTG), as well as Psychophysiological Interactions (PPI) using the left ATL as a seed region. The ROI analysis revealed that ATL stimulation significantly decreased task-induced activity in the left ATL (target region) while increasing activity in the right ATL and left IFG. PPI analyses showed that ATL stimulation enhanced connectivity between the left ATL and the right ATL (both ventromedial and lateral ATL), bilateral IFG, and bilateral pMTG, suggesting that ATL stimulation modulates a bilateral semantic network.

      Building on these findings, we conducted Dynamic Causal Modeling (DCM) to estimate and infer interactions among predefined brain regions across different experimental conditions (Friston et al., 2003). The bilateral ventromedial ATL, lateral ATL, IFG, and pMTG were defined as network nodes with mutual connections. Our model examined cTBS effects at the left ATL under both baseline (intrinsic) and semantic task (modulatory) conditions, estimating 56 intrinsic parameters for baseline connectivity and testing 16 different modulatory models to assess cTBS-induced connectivity changes during semantic processing. Here, we briefly summarize the key DCM analysis results: 1) ATL cTBS significantly altered effective connectivity between the left and right lateral and ventromedial ATL in both intrinsic and modulatory conditions; 2) cTBS increased modulatory connectivity from the right to the left ATL compared to vertex stimulation.

      Given the complexity and depth of these findings, we believe that a dedicated paper focusing on the network-level effects of ATL cTBS is necessary to provide a more comprehensive and detailed analysis, which extends beyond the scope of the current study. It should be noted that no significant relationship was found between ATL GABA levels and ATL connectivity in both PPI and DCM analyses.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      In response to my comment about the ATL activation being rather medial in the fMRI data and my concern about the TMS pulse perhaps not reaching this site, the authors offer an excellent solution to demonstrate TMS effects to such a medial ATL coordinate. I think that the analyses and figures they provide as a response to this comment and a brief explanation of this result should be incorporated into supplementary materials for methodologically oriented readers. Also, perhaps it would be beneficial to discuss that the effect of TMS on vATL remains a matter of further research to see not just if but also how TMS pulse reaches target coordinates, given the problematic anatomical location of the region.

      We appreciate R3’s suggestion. Please, see our reply above.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Comments on revisions:

      I thank the authors for addressing my comments.

      - I believe that additional in vivo experiments, or the inclusion of controls for the specificity of the inhibitor, which the authors argue are beyond the scope of the current study, are essential to address the weaknesses and limitations stated in my current evaluation.

      We respectfully acknowledge the reviewer's concern but would like to reiterate that demonstrating the specificity of the inhibitor is beyond the scope of this study. Alpelisib (BYL-719) is a clinically approved drug widely recognized as a specific inhibitor of p110α, primarily used in the treatment of breast cancer. Its selectivity for the p110α isoform has been extensively validated in the literature.

      In our study, we used Alpelisib to assess whether pharmacological inhibition of p110α would produce effects similar to those observed in our genetic model, which is particularly relevant for the potential translational implications of our findings. Given the well-documented specificity of this inhibitor, we believe that additional controls to confirm its selectivity are unnecessary within the context of this study. Instead, our focus has been to investigate the functional role of p110α activity in macrophage-driven inflammation using the models described.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insight and hope this clarification addresses their concern.

      - While the neutrophil depletion suggests neutrophils are not required for the phenotype, there are multiple other myeloid cells, in addition to macrophages, that could be contributing or accounting for the in vivo phenotype observed in the mutant strain (not macrophage specific).

      We appreciate the reviewer's observation regarding the potential involvement of other myeloid cells. However, it is important to highlight that the inflammatory process follows a well-characterized sequential pattern. Our data clearly demonstrate that in the paw inflammation model:

      ·       Neutrophils are effectively recruited, as evidenced by the inflammatory abscess filled with polymorphonuclear cells.

      ·       However, macrophages fail to be recruited in the RBD model.

      Given that this critical step is disrupted, it is reasonable to expect that any subsequent steps in the inflammatory cascade would also be affected. A precise dissection of the role of other myeloid populations would require additional lineage-specific models to selectively target each subset, which, as we have previously stated, would be the focus of an independent study.

      While we cannot entirely exclude the contribution of other myeloid cells, our data strongly support the conclusion that macrophages are, at the very least, a key component of the observed phenotype. We explicitly address this point in the Discussion section, where we acknowledge the potential involvement of other myeloid populations.

      - Inclusion of absolute cell numbers (in addition to the %) is essential. I do not understand why the authors are not including these data. Have they not counted the cells?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concern regarding the inclusion of absolute cell numbers. However, as stated in the Materials and Methods section, we analyzed 50,000 cells per sample, and the percentages reported in the manuscript are directly derived from this standardized count.

      Our decision to present the data as percentages follows standard practices in flow cytometry-based analyses, as it allows for a clearer and more biologically relevant comparison of relative changes between conditions. This approach ensures consistency across samples and facilitates the interpretation of population dynamics during inflammation.

      We would also like to clarify that all data are based on actual counts, and rigorous controls were implemented throughout the study to ensure accuracy and reproducibility. We hope this explanation addresses the reviewer’s concern and provides further clarity on our approach.

      - Lastly, inclusion of representatives staining and gating strategies for all immune profiling measurements carried out by flow cytometry is important. This point has not been addressed, not even in writing.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concern regarding the inclusion of absolute cell numbers. However, as stated in the Materials and Methods section, we analyzed 50,000 cells per sample, and the percentages reported in the manuscript are directly derived from this standardized count.

      Our decision to present the data as percentages follows standard practices in flow cytometry-based analyses, as it allows for a clearer and more biologically relevant comparison of relative changes between conditions. This approach ensures consistency across samples and facilitates the interpretation of population dynamics during inflammation.

      We would also like to clarify that all data are based on actual counts, and rigorous controls were implemented throughout the study to ensure accuracy and reproducibility. We hope this explanation addresses the reviewer’s concern and provides further clarity on our approach.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This study by Alejandro Rosell et al. reveals the immunoregulatory role of the RAS-p110α pathway in macrophages, specifically in regulating monocyte extravasation and lysosomal digestion during inflammation. Disrupting this pathway, through genetic tools or pharmacological intervention in mice, impairs the inflammatory response, leading to delayed resolution and more severe acute inflammation. The authors suggest that activating p110α with small molecules could be a potential therapeutic strategy for treating chronic inflammation. These findings provide important insights into the mechanisms by which p110α regulates macrophage function and the overall inflammatory response.

      The updates made by the authors in the revised version have addressed the main points raised in the initial review, further improving the strength of their findings.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Cell intrinsic signaling pathways controlling the function of macrophages in inflammatory processes, including in response to infection, injury or in the resolution of inflammation are incompletely understood. In this study, Rosell et al. investigate the contribution of RAS-p110α signaling to macrophage activity. p110α is a ubiquitously expressed catalytic subunit of PI3K with previously described roles in multiple biological processes including in epithelial cell growth and survival, and carcinogenesis. While previous studies have already suggested a role for RAS-p110α signaling in macrophage function, the cell intrinsic impact of disrupting the interaction between RAS and p110α in this central myeloid cell subset is not known.

      Strengths:

      Exploiting a sound previously described genetically engineered mouse model that allows tamoxifen-inducible disruption of the RAS-p110α pathway and using different readouts of macrophage activity in vitro and in vivo, the authors provide data consistent with their conclusion that alteration in RAS-p110α signaling impairs various but selective aspects of macrophage function in a cell-intrinsic manner.

      Weaknesses:

      My main concern is that for various readouts, the difference between wild-type and mutant macrophages in vitro or between wild-type and Pik3caRBD mice in vivo is modest, even if statistically significant. To further substantiate the extent of macrophage function alteration upon disruption of RAS-p110α signaling and its impact on the initiation and resolution of inflammatory responses, the manuscript would benefit from a more extensive assessment of macrophage activity and inflammatory responses in vivo.

      Thank you for raising this point. We understand the reviewer’s concern regarding the modest yet statistically significant differences observed between wild-type and mutant macrophages in vitro, as well as between wild-type and Pik3ca<sup>RBD</sup> mice in vivo. Our current study aimed to provide a foundational exploration of the role of RAS-p110α signaling in macrophage function and inflammatory response, focusing on a set of core readouts that demonstrate the physiological relevance of this pathway. While a more extensive in vivo assessment could offer additional insights into macrophage activity and the nuanced effects of RAS-p110α disruption, it would require an array of new experiments that are beyond the current scope.

      However, we believe that the current data provide significant insights into the pathway’s role, highlighting important alterations in macrophage function and inflammatory processes due to RAS-p110α disruption. These findings lay the groundwork for future studies that can build upon our results with a more comprehensive analysis of macrophage activity in various inflammatory contexts.

      In the in vivo model, all cells have disrupted RAS-p100α signaling, not only macrophages. Given that other myeloid cells besides macrophages contribute to the orchestration of inflammatory responses, it remains unclear whether the phenotype described in vivo results from impaired RAS-p100α signaling within macrophages or from defects in other haematopoietic cells such as neutrophils, dendritic cells, etc.

      Thank you for raising this point. To address this, we have added a paragraph in the Discussion section acknowledging that RAS-p110α signaling disruption affects all hematopoietic cells (lines 461-470 in the discussion). However, we also provide several lines of evidence that support macrophages as the primary cell type involved in the observed phenotype. Specifically, we note that neutrophil depletion in chimera mice did not alter transendothelial extravasation, and that macrophages were the primary cell type showing significant functional defects in the paw edema model. These findings, combined with specific deficiencies in myeloid populations, suggest a predominant role of macrophages in the impaired inflammatory response, though we acknowledge the potential contributions of other myeloid cells.

      Inclusion of information on the absolute number of macrophages, and total immune cells (e.g. for the spleen analysis) would help determine if the reduced frequency of macrophages represents an actual difference in their total number or rather reflects a relative decrease due to an increase in the number of other/s immune cell/s.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We understand the value of presenting actual measurements; however, we opted to display normalized data to provide a clearer comparison between WT and RBD mice, as this approach highlights the relative differences in immune populations between the two groups. Normalizing data helps to focus on the specific impact of the RAS-p110α disruption by minimizing inter-sample variability that can obscure these differences.

      To further address the reviewer’s concern regarding the interpretation of macrophage frequencies, we have included a pie chart that represents the relative proportions of the various immune cell populations studied within our dataset. Author response image 1 provides a visual overview of the immune cell distribution, enabling a clearer understanding of whether the observed decrease in macrophage frequency represents an actual reduction in total macrophage numbers or a shift in their relative abundance due to changes in other immune populations.

      We hope this approach satisfactorily addresses reviewer’s concerns by providing both a normalized dataset for clearer interpretation of genotype-specific effects and an overall immune profile that contextualizes macrophage frequency within the broader immune cell landscape.

      Author response image 1.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      As proof of concept data that activation of RAS-p110α signaling constitutes indeed a putative approach for treating chronic inflammation is not included in the manuscript, I suggest removing this implication from the abstract.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We have now removed this implication from the abstract to maintain clarity and to better reflect the scope of the data presented in the manuscript.

      Inclusion of a control in which RBD/- cells are also treated with BYL719, across experiments in which the inhibitor is used, would be important to determine, among other things, the specificity of the inhibitor.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion to include RBD/- cells treated with BYL719 as an additional control. However, we would like to clarify that this approach would raise a different biological question, as treating RBD mice with BYL719 would not only address the specificity of the inhibitor but also examine the combined effects of genetic and pharmacologic disruptions on PI3K pathway signaling. Investigating this dual disruption falls outside the scope of our current study, which is focused specifically on the effects of RAS-p110α disruption.

      It is also important to note that our RBD mouse model selectively disrupts RAS-mediated activation of p110α, while PI3K activation can still occur through other pathways, such as receptor tyrosine kinases (RTKs) and G protein-coupled receptors (GPCRs). Thus, inhibiting p110α with BYL719 would produce broader effects beyond the inhibition of RAS-PI3K signaling, impacting PI3K activation regardless of its upstream source.

      In addition, incorporating this control would require us to repeat nearly all experiments in the manuscript, as it would necessitate generating and analyzing new samples for each experimental condition. Given the scope and resources involved, we believe this approach is unfeasible at this stage of the revision process.

      We hope this explanation is satisfactory and that the current data in the manuscript provide a rigorous assessment of the RAS-p110α signaling pathway within the defined experimental scope.

      Figure 3I is missing the statistical analysis (this is mentioned in the legend though).

      Thank you for pointing this out. We apologize for the oversight. The statistical analysis for Figure 3I has now been added.

      Gating strategies and representative staining should be included more generally across the manuscript.

      Thank you for this suggestion. To address this, we have added a new supplementary figure (Figure 2-Supplement Figure 2) that illustrates the gating strategy along with a representative dataset. Additionally, a brief summary of the gating strategy has been included in the main text to further clarify the methodology.

      It is recommended that authors show actual measurements rather than only data normalized to the control (or arbitrary units).

      Thank you for this suggestion. We understand the value of presenting actual measurements; however, we opted to display normalized data to provide a clearer comparison between WT and RBD mice, as this approach highlights the relative differences in immune populations between the two groups. Normalizing data helps to focus on the specific impact of the RAS-p110α disruption by minimizing inter-sample variability that can obscure these differences.

      To further address the reviewer’s concern regarding the interpretation of macrophage frequencies, we have included a pie chart that represents the relative proportions of the various immune cell populations studied within our dataset. Author response image 1 provides a visual overview of the immune cell distribution, enabling a clearer understanding of whether the observed decrease in macrophage frequency represents an actual reduction in total macrophage numbers or a shift in their relative abundance due to changes in other immune populations.

      We hope this approach satisfactorily addresses reviewer’s concerns by providing both a normalized dataset for clearer interpretation of genotype-specific effects and an overall immune profile that contextualizes macrophage frequency within the broader immune cell landscape.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) Peptides were synthesized with fluorescein isothiocyanate (FITC) and Tat tag, and then PEGylated with methoxy PEG Succinimidyl Succinate.

      I have two concerns about the peptide design. First, FTIC was intended "for monitoring" (line 129), but was never used in the manuscript. Second, PEGylation targets the two lysine sidechains on the Tat, which would alter its penetration property.

      (1) We conducted an analysis of the cellular trafficking of FITC-tagged peptides following their permeabilization into cells.

      Author response image 1.

      However, we did not include it in the main text because it is a basic result.

      (2) As can be seen in the figure above, after pegylation and permeabilization, the cells were stained with FITC. It appears that this does not affect the ability to penetrate into the cells.

      (2) "Superdex 200 increase 10/300 GL column" (line 437) was used to isolate mono/di PEGylated PDZ and separate them from the residual PEG and PDZ peptide. "m-PEG-succinimidyl succinate with an average molecular weight of 5000 Da" (lines 133 and 134).

      To my knowledge, the Superdex 200 increase 10/300 GL column is not suitable and is unlikely to produce traces shown in Figure 1B.

      As Superdex 200 increase 10/300 GL featrues a fractionation range of 10,000 to 600,000 Da, we used it to fractionate PEGylated products including DiPEGylated PDZ (approx. 15 kDa) and MonoPEGylated PDZ (approx. 10 kDa) from residuals (PDZ and PEG), demonstrating successful isolation of PEGylated products (Figure 1C). Considering the molecular weights of PDZ and PEG are approximately 4.1 kDa and and 5.0 kDa, respectively, the late eluting peaks from SEC were likely to represent a mixed absorbance of PDZ and PEG at 215 nm.

      However, as the reviewer pointed out, it could be unreasonable to annotate peaks representing PDZ and PEG, respectively, from mixed absorbance detected in a region (11-12 min) beyond the fractionation range.

      In our revised manuscript, therefore, multiple peaks in the late eluting volume (11-12 min) were labeled as 'Residuals' all together. As a reference, the revised figure 1B includes a chromatogram of pure PDZ-WT under the same analytic condition.

      Therefore, we changed Fig.1B to new results.

      (3) "the in vivo survival effect of LPS and PDZ co-administration was examined in mice. The pretreatment with WT PDZ peptide significantly increased survival and rescued compared to LPS only; these effects were not observed with the mut PDZ peptide (Figure 2a)." (lines 159-160).

      Fig 2a is the weight curve only. The data is missing in the manuscript.

      We added the survived curve into Fig. 2A.

      (4) Table 1, peptide treatment on ALT and AST appears minor.

      In mice treated with LPS, levels of ALT and AGT in the blood are elevated, but these levels decrease upon treatment with WT PDZ. However, the use of mut PDZ does not result in significant changes. Figure 3A shows inflammatory cells within the central vein, yet no substantial hepatotoxicity is observed during the 5-day treatment with LPS. Normally, the ranges of ALT and AGT in C57BL6 mice are 16 ~ 200 U/L and 46 ~ 221 U/L, respectively, according to UCLA Diagnostic Labs. Therefore, the values in all experiments fall within these normal ranges. In summary, a 5-day treatment with LPS induces inflammation in the liver but is too short a duration to induce hepatotoxicity, resulting in lower values.

      (5) MitoTraker Green FM shouldn't produce red images in Figure 6.

      We changed new results (GREEN one) into Figs 6A and B.

      (6) Figure 5. Comparison of mRNA expression in PDZ-treated BEAS-2B cells. Needs a clearer and more detailed description both in the main text and figure legend. The current version is very hard to read.

      We changed Fig. 5A to new one to understand much easier and added more detailed results and figure legend.

      Results Section in Figure 5:

      we performed RNA sequencing analysis. The results of RNA-seq analysis showed the expression pattern of 24,424 genes according to each comparison combination, of which the results showed the similarity of 51 genes overlapping in 4 gene categories and the similarity between each comparison combination (Figure 5a). As a result, compared to the control group, it was confirmed that LPS alone, WT PDZ+LPS, and mut PDZ+LPS were all upregulated above the average value in each gene, and when LPS treatment alone was compared with WT PDZ+LPS, it was confirmed that they were averaged or downregulated. When comparing LPS treatment alone and mut PDZ+LPS, it was confirmed that about half of the genes were upregulated. Regarding the similarity between comparison combinations, the comparison combination with LPS…

      Figure 5 Legend Section:

      Figure 5. Comparison of mRNA expression in PDZ-treated BEAS-2B cells.

      BEAS-2B cells were treated with wild-type PDZ or mutant PDZ peptide for 24 h and then incubated with LPS for 2 h, after which RNA sequencing analysis was performed. (a) The heat map shows the general regulation pattern of about 51 inflammation-related genes that are differentially expressed when WT PDZ and mut PDZ are treated with LPS, an inflammatory substance. All samples are RED = upregulated and BLUE = downregulated relative to the gene average. Each row represents a gene, and the columns represent the values of the control group treated only with LPS and the WT PDZ and mut PDZ groups with LPS. This was used by converting each log value into a fold change value. All genes were adjusted to have the same mean and standard deviation, the unit of change is the standard deviation from the mean, and the color value range of each row is the same. (b) Significant genes were selected using Gene category chat (Fold change value of 2.00 and normalized data (log2) value of 4.00). The above pie chart shows the distribution of four gene categories when comparing LPS versus control, WT PDZ+LPS/LPS, and mut PDZ+LPS/LPS. The bar graph below shows RED=upregulated, GREEN=downregulated for each gene category, and shows the number of upregulated and downregulated genes in each gene category. (c) The protein-protein interaction network constructed by the STRING database differentially displays commonly occurring genes by comparing WT PDZ+LPS/LPS, mut PDZ+LPS/LPS, and LPS. These nodes represent proteins associated with inflammation, and these connecting lines denote interactions between two proteins. Different line thicknesses indicate types of evidence used in predicting the associations.

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) In this paper, the authors demonstrated the anti-inflammatory effect of PDZ peptide by inhibition of NF-kB signaling. Are there any results on the PDZ peptide-binding proteins (directly or indirectly) that can regulate LPS-induced inflammatory signaling pathway? Elucidation of the PDZ peptide-its binding partner protein and regulatory mechanisms will strengthen the author's hypothesis about the anti-inflammatory effects of PDZ peptide.

      As mentioned in the Discussion section, we believe it is crucial to identify proteins that directly interact with PDZ and regulate it. This direct interaction can modulate intracellular signaling pathways, so we plan to express GST-PDZ and induce binding with cellular lysates, then characterize it using the LC-Mass/Mass method. We intend to further research these findings and submit them for publication.

      (2) The authors presented interesting insights into the therapeutic role of the PDZ motif peptide of ZO-1. PDZ domains are protein-protein interaction modules found in a variety of species. It has been thought that many cellular and biological functions, especially those involving signal transduction complexes, are affected by PDZ-mediated interactions. What is the rationale for selecting the core sequence that regulates inflammation among the PDZ motifs of ZO-1 shown in Figure 1A?

      The rationale for selecting the core sequence that regulates inflammation among the PDZ motifs of ZO-1, as shown in Figure 1A, is grounded in the specific roles these motifs play in signal transduction pathways that are crucial for inflammatory processes. PDZ domains are recognized for their ability to function as scaffolding proteins that organize signal transduction complexes, crucial for modulating cellular and biological functions. The chosen core sequence is particularly important because it is conserved across ZO-1, ZO-2, and ZO-3, indicating a fundamental role in maintaining cellular integrity and signaling pathways. This conservation suggests that the sequence’s involvement in inflammatory regulation is not only significant in ZO-1 but also reflects a broader biological function across the ZO family.

      (3) In Figure 3, the authors showed the representative images of IHC, please add the quantification analysis of Iba1 expression and PAS-positive cells using Image J or other software. To help understand the figure, an indication is needed to distinguish specifically stained cells (for example, a dotted line or an arrow).

      We added the semi-quantitative results into Figs. 3d,e,f.

      Result section: The specific physiological mechanism by which WT PDZ peptide decreases LPS-induced systemic inflammation in mice and the signal molecules involved remain unclear. These were confirmed by a semi-quantitative analysis of Iba-1 immunoreactivity and PAS staining in liver, kidney, and lung,respectively (Figures 4d, e, and f). To examine whether WT PDZ peptide can alter LPS-induced tissue damage in the kidney, cell toxicity assay was performed (Figure 3g). LPS induced cell damage in the kidney, however, WT PDZ peptide could significantly alleviate the toxicity, but mut PDZ peptide could not. Because cytotoxicity caused by LPS is frequently due to ROS production in the kidney (Su et al., 2023; Qiongyue et al., 2022), ROS production in the mitochondria was investigated in renal mitochondria cells harvested from kidney tissue (Figure 3h)......

      Figure legend section: Indicated scale bars were 20 μm. (d,e,f) Semi-quantitative analysis of each are positive for Iba-1 in liver and kidney, and positive cells of PAS in lung, respectively. (g) After the kidneys were harvested, tissue lysates were used for MTT assay. (h) After.....

      (4) In Figure 6G, H, the authors confirmed the change in expression of the M2 markers by PDZ peptide using the mouse monocyte cell line Raw264.7. It would be good to add an experiment on changes in M1 and M2 markers caused by PDZ peptides in human monocyte cells (for example, THP-1).

      We thank you for your comments. To determine whether PDZ peptide regulates M1/M2 polarization in human monocytes, we examined changes in M1 and M2 gene expression in THP-1 cells. As a result, wild-type PDZ significantly suppressed the expression of M1 marker genes (hlL-1β, hIL-6, hIL-8, hTNF-ɑ), while increasing the expression of M2 marker genes (hlL-4, hIL-10, hMRC-1). However, mutant PDZ did not affect M1/M2 polarization. These results suggest that PDZ peptide can suppress inflammation by regulating M1/M2 polarization of human monocyte cells. These results are for the reviewer's reference only and will not be included in the main content.

      Author response image 2.

      Minor point:

      The use of language is appropriate, with good writing skills. Nevertheless, a thorough proofread would eliminate small mistakes such as:

      • line 254, " mut PDZ+LPS/LPS (45.75%) " → " mut PDZ+LPS/LPS (47.75%) "

      • line 296, " Figure 6f " → " Figure 6h "

      We changed these points into the manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Cell metabolism exhibits a well-known behavior in fast-growing cells, which employ seemingly wasteful fermentation to generate energy even in the presence of sufficient environmental oxygen. This phenomenon is known as Overflow Metabolism or the Warburg effect in cancer. It is present in a wide range of organisms, from bacteria and fungi to mammalian cells.

      In this work, starting with a metabolic network for Escherichia coli based on sets of carbon sources, and using a corresponding coarse-grained model, the author applies some well-based approximations from the literature and algebraic manipulations. These are used to successfully explain the origins of Overflow Metabolism, both qualitatively and quantitatively, by comparing the results with E. coli experimental data.

      By modeling the proteome energy efficiencies for respiration and fermentation, the study shows that these parameters are dependent on the carbon source quality constants K_i (p.115 and 116). It is demonstrated that as the environment becomes richer, the optimal solution for proteome energy efficiency shifts from respiration to fermentation. This shift occurs at a critical parameter value K_A(C).

      This counter intuitive results qualitatively explains Overflow Metabolism.

      Quantitative agreement is achieved through the analysis of the heterogeneity of the metabolic status within a cell population. By introducing heterogeneity, the critical growth rate is assumed to follow a Gaussian distribution over the cell population, resulting in accordance with experimental data for E. coli. Overflow metabolism is explained by considering optimal protein allocation and cell heterogeneity.

      The obtained model is extensively tested through perturbations: 1) Introduction of overexpression of useless proteins; 2) Studying energy dissipation; 3) Analysis of the impact of translation inhibition with different sub-lethal doses of chloramphenicol on Escherichia coli; 4) Alteration of nutrient categories of carbon sources using pyruvate. All model perturbations results are corroborated by E. coli experimental results.

      Strengths:

      In this work, the author effectively uses modeling techniques typical of Physics to address complex problems in Biology, demonstrating the potential of interdisciplinary approaches to yield novel insights. The use of Escherichia coli as a model organism ensures that the assumptions and approximations are well-supported in existing literature. The model is convincingly constructed and aligns well with experimental data, lending credibility to the findings. In this version, the extension of results from bacteria to yeast and cancer is substantiated by a literature base, suggesting that these findings may have broad implications for understanding diverse biological systems.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s exceptionally positive comments. The manuscript has been significantly improved thanks to the reviewer’s insightful suggestions.

      Weaknesses:

      The author explores the generalization of their results from bacteria to cancer cells and yeast, adapting the metabolic network and coarse-grained model accordingly. In previous version this generalization was not completely supported by references and data from the literature. This drawback, however, has been treated in this current version, where the authors discuss in much more detail and give references supporting this generalization.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s recognition of our revisions and the insightful suggestions provided in the previous round, which have greatly strengthened our manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this version of manuscript, the author clarified many details and rewrote some sections. This substantially improved the readability of the paper. I also recognized that the author spent substantial efforts in the Appendix to answer the potential questions.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive comments and the suggestions to improve our manuscript.

      Unfortunately, I am not currently convinced by the theory proposed in this paper. In the next section, I will first recap the logic of the author and explain why I am not convinced. Although the theory fits many experimental results, other theories on overflow metabolism are also supported by experiments. Hence, I do not think based on experimental data we could rule in or rule out different theories.

      We thank the reviewer for both the critical and constructive comments. 

      Regarding the comments on the comparison between theoretical and experimental results, we would like to first emphasize that no prior theory has resolved the conflict arising from the proteome efficiencies measured in E. coli and eukaryotic cells. Specifically, prevalent explanations (Basan et al., Nature 528, 99–104 (2015); Chen and Nielsen, PNAS 116, 17592–17597 (2019)) hold that overflow metabolism results from proteome efficiency in fermentation consistently being higher than that in respiration. While it was observed in E. coli that proteome efficiency in fermentation exceeds that in respiration when cells were cultured in lactose at saturated concentrations (Basan et al., Nature 528, 99-104 (2015)), more recent findings (Shen et al., Nature Chemical Biology 20, 1123–1132 (2024)) show that the measured proteome efficiency in respiration is actually higher than in fermentation for many yeast and cancer cells, despite the presence of aerobic glycolytic fermentation flux. To the best of our knowledge, no prior theory has explained these contradictory experimental results. Notably, our theory resolves this conflict and quantitatively explains both sets of experimental observations (Basan et al., Nature 528, 99-104 (2015); Shen et al., Nature Chemical Biology 20, 1123–1132 (2024)) by incorporating cell heterogeneity and optimizing cell growth rate through protein allocation. 

      Furthermore, rather than merely fitting the experimental results, as explained in Appendices 6.2, 8.1-8.2 and summarized in Appendix-tables 1-3, nearly all model parameters important for our theoretical predictions for E. coli were derived from in vivo and in vitro biochemical data reported in the experimental literature. For comparisons between model predictions and experimental results for yeast and cancer cells (Shen et al., Nature Chemical Biology 20, 1123–1132 (2024)), we intentionally derived Eq. 6 to ensure an unbiased comparison.

      Finally, in response to the reviewer’s suggestion, we have revised the expressions in our manuscript to present the differences between our theory and previous theories in a more modest style. 

      Recap: To explain the origin of overflow metabolism, the author uses the following logic:

      (1) There is a substantial variability of single-cell growth rate

      (2) The flux (J_r^E) and (J_f^E) are coupled with growth rate by Eq. 3

      (3) Since growth rate varies from cells to cells, flux (J_r^E) and (J_f^E) also varies (4) The variabilities of above fluxes in above create threshold-analog relation, and hence overflow metabolism.

      We thank the reviewer for the clear summary. We apologize for not explaining some points clearly enough in the previous version of our manuscript, which may have led to misunderstandings. We have now revised the relevant content in the manuscript to clarify our reasoning. Specifically, we have applied the following logic in our explanation:

      (a) The solution for the optimal growth strategy of a cell under a given nutrient condition is a binary choice between respiration and fermentation, driven by comparing their proteome efficiencies (ε<sub>r</sub> and ε<sub>f</sub> ).

      (b) Under nutrient-poor conditions, the nutrient quality (κ<sub>A</sub>) is low, resulting in the proteome efficiency of respiration being higher than that of fermentation (i.e., ε<sub>r</sub> > ε<sub>f</sub>), so the cell exclusively uses respiration.  

      (c) In rich media (with high κ<sub>A</sub>), the proteome efficiency of fermentation increases more rapidly and surpasses that of respiration (i.e., ε<sub>f</sub> > ε<sub>r</sub> ), hence the cell switches to fermentation.  

      (d) Heterogeneity is introduced: variability in the κ<sub>cat</sub> of catalytic enzymes from cell to cell. This leads to heterogeneity (variability) in ε<sub>r</sub> and ε<sub>f</sub> within a population of cells under the same nutrient condition.  

      (e) The critical value of nutrient quality for the switching point (, where ε<sub>r</sub>= ε<sub>f</sub> ) changes from a single point to a distribution due to cell heterogeneity. This results in a distribution of the critical growth rate λ<sub>C</sub> (defined as ) within the cell population.

      (f) The change in culturing conditions (with a highly diverse range of κ<sub>A</sub>) and heterogeneity in the critical growth rate λ<sub>C</sub> (a distribution of values) result in the threshold-analog relation of overflow metabolism at the cell population level.

      Steps (a)-(c) were applied to qualitatively explain the origin of overflow metabolism, while steps (d)-(f) were further used to quantitatively explain the threshold-analog relation observed in the data on overflow metabolism.

      Regarding the reviewer’s recap, which seems to have involved some misunderstandings, we first emphasize that the major change in cell growth rate for the threshold-analog relation of overflow metabolism—particularly as it pertains to logic steps (1), (3) and (4)—is driven by the highly varied range of nutrient quality (κ<sub>A</sub>) in the culturing conditions, rather than by heterogeneity between cells. For the batch culture data, the nutrient type of the carbon source differs significantly (e.g., Fig.1 in Basan et al., Nature 528, 99-104 (2015), wild-type strains). In contrast, for the chemostat data, the concentration of the carbon source varies greatly due to the highly varied dilution rate (e.g., Table 7 in Holms, FEMS Microbiology Reviews 19, 85-116 (1996)). Both of these factors related to nutrient conditions are the major causes of the changes in cell growth rate in the threshold-analog relation. 

      Second, Eq. 3, as mentioned in logic step (2), represents a constraint between the fluxes ( and ) and the growth rate (λ) for a single nutrient condition (with a given value of κ<sub>A</sub> ideally) rather than for varied nutrient conditions. For a single cell in each nutrient condition, the optimal growth strategy is binary, between respiration and fermentation. 

      Finally, for the threshold-analog relation of overflow metabolism, the switch from respiration to fermentation is caused by the increased nutrient quality in the culturing conditions, rather than by cell heterogeneity as indicated in logic step (4). Upon nutrient upshifts, the proteome efficiency of fermentation surpasses that of respiration, causing the optimal growth strategy for the cell to switch from respiration to fermentation. The role of cell heterogeneity is to transform the growth rate-dependent fermentation flux in overflow metabolism from a digital response to a threshold-analog relation under varying nutrient conditions.

      My opinion:

      The logic step (2) and (3) have caveats. The variability of growth rate has large components of cellular noise and external noise. Therefore, variability of growth rate is far from 100% correlated with variability of flux (J_r^E) and (J_f^E) at the single-cell level. Single-cell growth rate is a complex, multivariate functional, including (Jr^E) and (J_f^E) but also many other variables. My feeling is the correlation could be too low to support the logic here.

      One example: ribosomal concentration is known to be an important factor of growth rate in bulk culture. However, the "growth law" from bulk culture cannot directly translate into the growth law at single-cell level [Ref1,2]. This is likely due to other factors (such as cell aging, other muti-stability of cellular states) are involved.

      Therefore, I think using Eq.3 to invert the distribution of growth rate into the distribution of (Jr^E) and (J_f^E) is inapplicable, due to the potentially low correlation at single-cell level. It may show partial correlations, but may not be strong enough to support the claim and create fermentation at macroscopic scale.

      Overall, if we track the logic flow, this theory implies overflow metabolism is originated from variability of k_cat of catalytic enzymes from cells to cells. That is, the author proposed that overflow metabolism happens macroscopically as if it is some "aberrant activation of fermentation pathway" at the single-cell level, due to some unknown partially correlation from growth rate variability.

      We thank the reviewer for raising these questions and for the insights. We apologize for any lack of clarity in the previous version of our manuscript that may have caused misunderstandings. We have revised the manuscript to address all points, and below are our responses to the questions, some of which seem to involve misunderstandings. 

      First, in our theory, the qualitative behavior of overflow metabolism—where cells use respiration under nutrient-poor conditions (low growth rate) and fermentation in rich media (high growth rate)—does not arise from variability between cells, as the reviewer seems to have interpreted. Instead, it originates from growth optimization through optimal protein allocation under significantly different nutrient conditions. Specifically, the proteome efficiency of fermentation is lower than that of respiration (i.e. ε<sub>f</sub> < ε<sub>r</sub>) under nutrient-poor conditions, making respiration the optimal strategy in this case. However, in rich media, the proteome efficiency of fermentation surpasses that of respiration (i.e. ε<sub>f</sub> < ε<sub>r</sub>), leading the cell to switch to fermentation for growth optimization. To implement the optimal strategy, as clarified in the revised manuscript and discussed in Appendix 2.4, a cell should sense and compare the proteome efficiencies between respiration and fermentation, choosing the pathway with the higher efficiency, rather than sensing the growth rate, which can fluctuate due to stochasticity. Regarding the role of cell heterogeneity in overflow metabolism, as discussed in our previous response, it is twofold: first, it quantitatively illustrates the threshold-analog response of growth rate-dependent fermentation flux, which would otherwise be a digital response without heterogeneity during growth optimization; second, it enables us to resolve the paradox in proteome efficiencies observed in E. coli and eukaryotic cells, as raised by Shen et al. (Shen et al., Nature Chemical Biology 20, 1123–1132 (2024)). 

      Second, regarding logic step (2) in the recap, the reviewer thought we had coupled the growth rate (λ) with the respiration and fermentation fluxes ( and ) through Eq. 3, and used Eq. 3 to invert the distribution of growth rate into the distribution of respiration and fermentation fluxes. We need to clarify that Eq. 3 represents the constraint between the fluxes and the growth rate under a single nutrient condition, rather than describing the relation between growth rate and the fluxes ( and ) under varied nutrient conditions. In a given nutrient condition (with a fixed value of κ<sub>A</sub>), without considering optimal protein allocation, the cell growth rate varies with the fluxes according to Eq.3 by adjusting the proteome allocation between respiration and fermentation (ϕ<sub>r</sub> and ϕ<sub>f</sub>). However, once growth optimization is applied, the optimal protein allocation strategy for a cell is limited to either pure respiration (with ϕ<sub>f</sub> =0 and ) or pure fermentation (with ϕ<sub>r</sub> =0 and ), depending on the nutrient condition (or the value of κ<sub>A</sub>). Furthermore, under varying nutrient conditions (with different values of κ<sub>A</sub>), both proteome efficiencies of respiration and fermentation (ε<sub>r</sub> and (ε<sub>f</sub>) change with nutrient quality κ<sub>A</sub> (see Eq. 4). Thus, Eq. 3 does not describe the relation between growth rate (λ) and the fluxes ( and ) under nutrient variations.

      Thirdly, regarding reviewer’s concerns on logic step (3) in the recap, as well as the example where ribosome concentration does not correlate well with cell growth rate at the single-cell level, we fully agree with reviewer that, due to factors such as stochasticity and cell cycle status, the growth rate fluctuates constantly for each cell. Consequently, it would not be fully correlated with cell parameters such as ribosome concentration or respiration/fermentation flux. We apologize for our oversight in not discussing suboptimal growth conditions in the previous version of the manuscript. In response, we have added a paragraph to the discussion section and a new Appendix 2.4, titled “Dependence of the model on optimization principles,” to address these issues in detail. Specifically, recent experimental studies (Dai et al., Nature microbiology 2, 16231 (2017); Li et al., Nature microbiology 3, 939–947 (2018)) show that the inactive portion of ribosomes (i.e., ribosomes not bound to mRNAs) can vary under different culturing conditions. The reviewer also pointed out that ribosome concentration does not correlate well with cell growth rate at single-cell level. In this regard, we have cited Pavlou et al. (Pavlou et al., Nature Communications 16, 285 (2025)) instead of the references provided by the reviewer (Ref1 and Ref2), with our rationale outlined in the final section of the author response. These findings (Dai et al, (2017); Li et al., (2018); Pavlou et al., (2025)) suggest that ribosome allocation may be suboptimal under many culturing conditions, likely as cells prepare for potential environmental changes (Li et al., Nature microbiology 3, 939–947 (2018)). However, since our model's predictions regarding the binary choice between respiration and fermentation are based solely on comparing proteome efficiency between these two pathways, the optimal growth principle in our model can be relaxed. Specifically, efficient protein allocation is required only for enzymes rather than ribosomes, allowing our model to remain applicable under suboptimal growth conditions. Furthermore, protein allocation via the ribosome occurs at the single-cell level rather than at the population level. The strong linear correlation between ribosomal concentration and growth rate at the population level under nutrient variations suggests that each cell optimizes its protein allocation individually. Therefore, the principle of growth optimization still applies to individual cells, although factors like stochasticity, nutrient variation preparations, and differences in cell cycle stages may complicate this relationship, resulting in only a rough linear correlation between ribosome concentration and growth rate at the single-cell level (with with R<sup>2</sup> = 0.64 reported in Pavlou et al., (2025)). 

      Lastly, regarding the reviewer concerns about the heterogeneity of fermentation and respiration at macroscopic scale, we first clarify in the second paragraph of this response that the primary driving force for cells to switch from respiration to fermentation in the context of overflow metabolism is the increased nutrient quality under varying culturing conditions, which causes the proteome efficiency of fermentation to surpass that of respiration. Under nutrient-poor conditions, our model predicts that all cells use respiration, and therefore no heterogeneity for the phenotype of respiration and fermentation arises in these conditions. However, in a richer medium, particularly one that does not provide optimal conditions but allows for an intermediate growth rate, our model predicts that some cells opt for fermentation while others continue with respiration due to cell heterogeneity (with ε<sub>f</sub> > ε<sub>r</sub> for some cells engaging in fermentation and ε<sub>r</sub> > ε<sub>f</sub> for the other cells engaging in respiration within the same medium). Both of these predictions have been validated in isogenic singlecell experiments with E. coli (Nikolic et al., BMC Microbiology 13, 258 (2013)) and S. cerevisiae (Bagamery et al., Current Biology 30, 4563–4578 (2020)). The single-cell experiments by Nikolic et al. with E. coli in a rich medium of intermediate growth rate clearly show a bimodal distribution in the expression of genes related to overflow metabolism (see Fig. 5 in Nikolic et al., BMC Microbiology 13, 258 (2013)), where one subpopulation suggests purely fermentation, while the other suggests purely respiration. In contrast, in a medium with lower nutrient concentration (and consequently lower nutrient quality), only the respirative population exists (see Fig. 5 in Nikolic et al., BMC Microbiology 13, 258 (2013)). These experimental results from E. coli (Nikolic et al., BMC Microbiology 13, 258 (2013)) are fully consistent with our model predictions. Similarly, the single-cell experiments with S. cerevisiae by Bagamery et al. clearly identified two subpopulations of cells with respect to fermentation and respiration in a rich medium, which also align well with our model predictions regarding heterogeneity in fermentation and respiration within a cell population in the same medium.

      Compared with other theories, this theory does not involve any regulatory mechanism and can be regarded as a "neutral theory". I am looking forward to seeing single cell experiments in the future to provide evidences about this theory.

      We thank the reviewer for raising these questions and for the valuable insights. Regarding the regulatory mechanism, we have now added a paragraph in the discussion section of our manuscript and Appendix 2.4 to address this point. Specifically, our model predicts that a cell can implement the optimal strategy by directly sensing and comparing the proteome efficiencies of respiration and fermentation, choosing the pathway with the higher efficiency. At the gene regulatory level, a growing body of evidence suggests that the cAMP-CRP system plays an important role in sensing and executing the optimal strategy between respiration and fermentation (Basan et al., Nature 528, 99-104 (2015); Towbin et al., Nature Communications 8, 14123 (2017); Valgepea et al., BMC Systems Biology 4, 166 (2010); Wehrens et al., Cell Reports 42, 113284 (2023)). However, it has also been suggested that the cAMP-CRP system alone is insufficient, and additional regulators may need to be identified to fully elucidate this mechanism (Basan et al., Nature 528, 99-104 (2015); Valgepea et al., BMC Systems Biology 4, 166 (2010)). 

      Regarding the single-cell experiments that provide evidence for this theory, we have shown in the previous paragraphs of this response that the heterogeneity between respiration and fermentation, as predicted by our model for isogenic cells within the same culturing condition, has been fully validated by single-cell experiments with E. coli (Fig. 5 from Nikolic et al., BMC Microbiology 13, 258 (2013)) and S. cerevisiae (Fig. 1 and the graphical abstract from Bagamery et al., Current Biology 30, 4563–4578 (2020)). We have now revised the discussion section of our manuscript to make this point clearer.

      [Ref1] https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.04.19.590370v2

      [Ref2] https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.10.08.617237v2

      We thank the reviewer for providing insightful references. Regarding the two specific references, Ref1 directly addresses the deviation in the linear relationship between growth rate and ribosome concentration (“growth law”) at the single-cell level. However, since the authors of Ref1 determined the rRNA abundance in each cell by aligning sequencing reads to the genome, this method inevitably introduces a substantial amount of measurement noise. As a result, we chose not to cite or discuss this preprint in our manuscript. Ref2 appears to pertain to a different topic, which we suspect may be a copy/paste error. Based on the reviewer’s description and the references in Ref1, we believe the correct Ref2 should be Pavlou et al., Nature Communications 16, 285 (2025) (with the biorxiv preprint link: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.04.26.591328v1). In this reference, it is stated that the relationship between ribosome concentration and growth rate only roughly aligns with the “growth law” at the single-cell level (with R<sup>2</sup> = 0.64), exhibiting a certain degree of deviation. We have now cited and incorporated the findings of Pavlou et al. (Pavlou et al., Nature Communications 16, 285 (2025)) in both the discussion section of our manuscript and Appendix 2.4. Overall, we agree with Pavlou et al.’s experimental results, which suggest that ribosome concentration does not exhibit a strong linear correlation with cell growth rate at the single-cell level. However, we remain somewhat uncertain about the extent of this deviation, as Pavlou et al.’s experimental setup involved alternating nutrients between acetate and glucose, and the lapse of five generations may not have been long enough for the growth to be considered balanced. Furthermore, as observed in Supplementary Movie 1 of Pavlou et al., some of the experimental cells appeared to experience growth limitations due to squeezing pressure from the pipe wall of the mother machine, which could further increase the deviation from the “growth law” at the single-cell level.  

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I have no specific comments for the authors related to this last version of the paper. I believe the authors have properly improved the previous version of the manuscript.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for the highly positive comments and for recognizing the improvements made in the revised version of our manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This work presents an important method for depleting ribosomal RNA from bacterial single-cell RNA sequencing libraries, enabling the study of cellular heterogeneity within microbial biofilms. The approach convincingly identifies a small subpopulation of cells at the biofilm's base with upregulated PdeI expression, offering invaluable insights into the biology of bacterial biofilms and the formation of persister cells. Further integrated analysis of gene interactions within these datasets could deepen our understanding of biofilm dynamics and resilience.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback and for recognizing the importance of our method for depleting ribosomal RNA from bacterial single-cell RNA sequencing libraries. We are pleased that our approach has convincingly identified a small subpopulation of cells at the base of the biofilm with upregulated PdeI expression, providing significant insights into the biology of bacterial biofilms and the formation of persister cells.

      We acknowledge your suggestion for a more comprehensive analysis of multiple genes and their interactions. While we conducted a broad analysis across the transcriptome, our decision to focus on the heterogeneously expressed gene PdeI was primarily informed by its critical role in biofilm biology. In addition to PdeI, we investigated other marker genes and noted that lptE and sstT exhibited potential associations with persister cells. However, our interaction analysis revealed that LptE and SstT did not demonstrate significant relationships with c-di-GMP and PdeI based on current knowledge. This insight led us to concentrate on PdeI, given its direct relevance to biofilm formation and its close connection to the c-di-GMP signaling pathway.

      We fully agree that other marker genes may also have important regulatory roles in different aspects of biofilm dynamics. Thus, we plan to explore the expression patterns and potential functions of these genes in our future research. Specifically, we intend to conduct more extensive gene network analyses to uncover the complex regulatory mechanisms involved in biofilm formation and resilience.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Yan and colleagues introduce a modification to the previously published PETRI-seq bacterial single cell protocol to include a ribosomal depletion step based on a DNA probe set that selectively hybridizes with ribosome-derived (rRNA) cDNA fragments. They show that their modification of the PETRI-seq protocol increases the fraction of informative non-rRNA reads from ~4-10% to 54-92%. The authors apply their protocol to investigating heterogeneity in a biofilm model of E. coli, and convincingly show how their technology can detect minority subpopulations within a complex community.

      Strengths:

      The method the authors propose is a straightforward and inexpensive modification of an established split-pool single cell RNA-seq protocol that greatly increases its utility, and should be of interest to a wide community working in the field of bacterial single cell RNA-seq.

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for their thoughtful and positive evaluation of our work. We appreciate the recognition of our modification to the PETRI-seq bacterial single-cell RNA sequencing protocol by incorporating a ribosomal depletion step. The significant increase in the fraction of informative non-rRNA reads, as noted in the reviewer’s summary, underscores the effectiveness of our method in enhancing the utility of the PETRI-seq approach. We are also encouraged by the reviewer's acknowledgment of our ability to detect minority subpopulations within complex biofilm communities. Our team is committed to further validating and optimizing this method, and we believe that RiboD-PETRI will contribute meaningfully to the field of bacterial single-cell transcriptomics. We hope this innovative approach will facilitate new discoveries in microbial ecology and biofilm research.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work introduces a new method of depleting the ribosomal reads from the single-cell RNA sequencing library prepared with one of the prokaryotic scRNA-seq techniques, PETRI-seq. The advance is very useful since it allows broader access to the technology by lowering the cost of sequencing. It also allows more transcript recovery with fewer sequencing reads. The authors demonstrate the utility and performance of the method for three different model species and find a subpopulation of cells in the E.coli biofilm that express a protein, PdeI, which causes elevated c-di-GMP levels. These cells were shown to be in a state that promotes persister formation in response to ampicillin treatment.

      Strengths:

      The introduced rRNA depletion method is highly efficient, with the depletion for E.coli resulting in over 90% of reads containing mRNA. The method is ready to use with existing PETRI-seq libraries which is a large advantage, given that no other rRNA depletion methods were published for split-pool bacterial scRNA-seq methods. Therefore, the value of the method for the field is high. There is also evidence that a small number of cells at the bottom of a static biofilm express PdeI which is causing the elevated c-di-GMP levels that are associated with persister formation. This finding highlights the potentially complex role of PdeI in regulation of c-di-GMP levels and persister formation in microbial biofilms.

      Weaknesses:

      Given many current methods that also introduce different techniques for ribosomal RNA depletion in bacterial single-cell RNA sequencing, it is unclear what is the place and role of RiboD-PETRI. The efficiency of rRNA depletion varies greatly between species for the majority of the available methods, so it is not easy to select the best fitting technique for a specific application.

      Thank you for your insightful comments regarding the place and role of RiboD-PETRI in the landscape of ribosomal RNA depletion techniques for bacterial single-cell RNA sequencing. We appreciate the opportunity to address your concerns and clarify the significance of our method.

      We acknowledge that the field of rRNA depletion in bacterial single-cell RNA sequencing is diverse, with many methods offering different approaches. We also recognize the challenge of selecting the best technique for a specific application, given the variability in rRNA depletion efficiency across species for many available methods. In light of these considerations, we believe RiboD-PETRI occupies a distinct and valuable niche in this landscape due to following reasons: 1) Low-input compatibility: Our method is specifically tailored for the low-input requirements of single-cell RNA sequencing, maintaining high efficiency even with limited starting material. This makes RiboD-PETRI particularly suitable for single-cell studies where sample quantity is often a limiting factor. 2) Equipment-free protocol: One of the unique advantages of RiboD-PETRI is that it can be conducted in any lab without the need for specialized equipment. This accessibility ensures that a wide range of researchers can implement our method, regardless of their laboratory setup. 3) Broad species coverage: Through comprehensive probe design targeting highly conserved regions of bacterial rRNA, RiboD-PETRI offers a robust solution for samples involving multiple bacterial species or complex microbial communities. This approach aims to provide consistent performance across diverse taxa, addressing the variability issue you mentioned. 4) Versatility and compatibility: RiboD-PETRI is designed to be compatible with various downstream single-cell RNA sequencing protocols, enhancing its utility in different experimental setups and research contexts.

      In conclusion, RiboD-PETRI's unique combination of low-input compatibility, equipment-free protocol, broad species coverage, and versatility positions it as a robust and accessible option in the landscape of rRNA depletion methods for bacterial single-cell RNA sequencing. We are committed to further validating and improving our method to ensure its valuable contribution to the field and to provide researchers with a reliable tool for their diverse experimental needs.

      Despite transcriptome-wide coverage, the authors focused on the role of a single heterogeneously expressed gene, PdeI. A more integrated analysis of multiple genes and\or interactions between them using these data could reveal more insights into the biofilm biology.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback. We understand your suggestion for a more comprehensive analysis of multiple genes and their interactions. While we indeed conducted a broad analysis across the transcriptome, our decision to focus on the heterogeneously expressed gene PdeI was primarily based on its crucial role in biofilm biology. Beyond PdeI, we also conducted overexpression experiments on several other marker genes and examined their phenotypes. Notably, the lptE and sstT genes showed potential associations with persister cells. We performed an interaction analysis, which revealed that LptE and SstT did not show significant relationships with c-di-GMP and PdeI based on current knowledge. This finding led us to concentrate our attention on PdeI. Given PdeI's direct relevance to biofilm formation and its close connection to the c-di-GMP signaling pathway, we believed that an in-depth study of PdeI was most likely to reveal key biological mechanisms.

      We fully agree with your point that other marker genes may play regulatory roles in different aspects. The expression patterns and potential functions of these genes will be an important direction in our future research. In our future work, we plan to conduct more extensive gene network analyses to uncover the complex regulatory mechanisms of biofilm formation.

      Author response image 1.

      The proportion of persister cells in the partially maker genes and empty vector control groups. Following induction of expression with 0.002% arabinose for 2 hours, a persister counting assay was conducted on the strains using 150 μg/ml ampicillin.

      The authors should also present the UMIs capture metrics for RiboD-PETRI method for all cells passing initial quality filter (>=15 UMIs/cell) both in the text and in the figures. Selection of the top few cells with higher UMI count may introduce biological biases in the analysis (the top 5% of cells could represent a distinct subpopulation with very high gene expression due to a biological process). For single-cell RNA sequencing, showing the statistics for a 'top' group of cells creates confusion and inflates the perceived resolution, especially when used to compare to other methods (e.g. the parent method PETRI-seq itself).

      Thank you for your valuable feedback regarding the presentation of UMI capture metrics for the RiboD-PETRI method. We appreciate your concern about potential biological biases and the importance of comprehensive data representation in single-cell RNA sequencing analysis. We have now included the UMI capture metrics for all cells passing the initial quality filter (≥15 UMIs/cell) for the RiboD-PETRI method. This information has been added to both the main text and the relevant figures, providing a more complete picture of our method's performance across the entire range of captured cells. These revisions strengthen our manuscript and provide readers with a more complete understanding of the RiboD-PETRI method in the context of single-cell RNA sequencing.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The reviewers have responded thoughtfully and comprehensively to all of my comments. I believe the details of the protocol are now much easier to understand, and the text and methods have been significantly clarified. I have no further comments.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The authors edited the manuscript thoroughly in response to the comments, including both performing new experiments and showing more data and information. Most of the major points raised between both reviewers were addressed. The authors explained the seeming contradiction between c-di-GMP levels and PdeI expression. Despite these improvements, a few issues remain:

      - Despite now depositing the data and analysis files to GEO, the access is embargoed and the reviewer token was not provided to evaluate the shared data and accessory files.

      Please note that although the data and analysis files have been deposited to GEO, access is currently embargoed. To evaluate the shared data and accessory files, you will need a reviewer token, which appears to have not been provided.

      To gain access, please follow these steps:

      Visit the GEO accession page at: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/geo/query/acc.cgi?acc=GSE260458

      In the designated field, enter the reviewer token: ehipgqiohhcvjev

      - Despite now discussing performance metrics for RiboD-PETRI method for all cells passing initial quality filter (>=15 UMIs/cell) in the text, the authors continued to also include the statistics for top 1000 cells, 5,000 cells and so on. Critically, Figure 2A-B is still showing the UMI and gene distributions per cell only for these select groups of cells. The intent to focus on these metrics is not quite clear, as selection of the top few cells with higher UMI count may introduce biological biases in the analysis (what if the top 5% of cells are unusual because they represent a distinct subpopulation with very high gene expression due to a biological process). I understand the desire to demonstrate the performance of the method by highlighting a few select 'best' cells, however, for single-cell RNA sequencing showing the statistics for a 'top' group of cells is not appropriate and creates confusion, especially when used to compare to other methods (e.g. the parent method PETRI-seq itself).

      We appreciate your insightful feedback regarding our presentation of the RiboD-PETRI method's performance metrics. We acknowledge the concerns you've raised and agree that our current approach requires refinement. We have revised our analysis to prominently feature metrics for all cells that pass the initial quality filter (≥15 UMIs/cell) (Fig. 2A, Fig. 3A, Supplementary Fig. 1A, B and Supplementary Fig. 2A, G). This approach provides a more representative view of the method's performance across the entire dataset, avoiding potential biases introduced by focusing solely on top-performing cells.​

      We recognize that selecting only the top cells based on UMI counts can indeed introduce biological biases, as these cells may represent distinct subpopulations with unique biological processes rather than typical cellular states. To address this, we have clearly stated the potential for bias when highlighting select 'best' cells. We also provided context for why these high-performing cells are shown, explaining that they demonstrate the upper limits of the method's capabilities (lines 139). In addition, when comparing RiboD-PETRI to other methods, including the parent PETRI-seq, we ensured that comparisons are made using consistent criteria across all methods.

      By implementing these changes, we aim to provide a more accurate, unbiased, and comprehensive representation of the RiboD-PETRI method's performance while maintaining scientific rigor and transparency. We appreciate your critical feedback, as it helps us improve the quality and reliability of our research presentation.

      - Line 151 " The findings reveal that our sequencing saturation is 100% (Fig. S1B, C)" - I suggest the authors revisit this calculation as this parameter is typically very challenging to get above 95-96%. The sequencing saturation should be calculated from the statistics of alignment themselves, i.e. the parameter calculated by Cell Ranger as described here https://kb.10xgenomics.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003646912-How-is-sequencing-saturation-calculated :

      "The web_summary.html output from cellranger count includes a metric called "Sequencing Saturation". This metric quantifies the fraction of reads originating from an already-observed UMI. More specifically, this is the fraction of confidently mapped, valid cell-barcode, valid UMI reads that are non-unique (match an existing cell-barcode, UMI, gene combination).

      The formula for calculating this metric is as follows:

      Sequencing Saturation = 1 - (n_deduped_reads / n_reads)

      where

      n_deduped_reads = Number of unique (valid cell-barcode, valid UMI, gene) combinations among confidently mapped reads.

      n_reads = Total number of confidently mapped, valid cell-barcode, valid UMI reads.

      Note that the numerator of the fraction is n_deduped_reads, not the non-unique reads that are mentioned in the definition. n_deduped_reads is a degree of uniqueness, not a degree of duplication/saturation. Therefore we take the complement of (n_deduped_reads / n_reads) to measure saturation."

      We appreciate your insightful comment regarding our sequencing saturation calculation. The sequencing saturation algorithm we initially employed was based on the methodology used in the BacDrop study (PMID: PMC10014032, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10014032/).

      We acknowledge the importance of using standardized and widely accepted methods for calculating sequencing saturation. As per your suggestion, we have recalculated our sequencing saturation using the method described by 10x Genomics. Given the differences between RiboD-PETRI and 10x Genomics datasets, we have adapted the calculation as follows:

      · n_deduped_reads: We used the number of UMIs as a measure of unique reads.

      · n_reads: We used the total number of confidently mapped reads.

      After applying this adapted calculation method, we found that our sequencing saturation ranges from 92.16% to 93.51%. This range aligns more closely with typical expectations for sequencing saturation in single-cell RNA sequencing experiments, suggesting that we have captured a substantial portion of the transcript diversity in our samples. We also updated Figure S1 to reflect these recalculated sequencing saturation values. We will also provide a detailed description of our calculation method in the methods section to ensure transparency and reproducibility. It's important to note that this saturation calculation method was originally designed for 10× Genomics data. While we've adapted it for our study, we acknowledge that its applicability to our specific experimental setup may be limited.

      We thank you for bringing this important point to our attention. This recalculation not only improves the accuracy of our reported results but also aligns our methodology more closely with established standards in the field. We believe these revisions strengthen the overall quality and reliability of our study.

      - Further, this calculated saturation should be taken into account when comparing the performance of the method in terms of retrieving diverse transcripts from cells. I.e., if the RiboD-Petri dataset was subsampled to the same saturation as the original PETRI-seq dataset was obtained with, would the median UMIs/cell for all cells above filter be comparable? In other words, does rRNA depletion just decreases the cost to sequence to saturation, or does it provide UMI capture benefits at a comparable saturation?

      We appreciate your insightful question regarding the comparison of method performance in terms of transcript retrieval diversity and the impact of saturation. To address your concerns, we conducted an additional analysis comparing the RiboD-PETRI and original PETRI-seq datasets at equivalent saturation levels besides our original analysis with equivalent sequencing depth.

      With equivalent sequencing depth, RiboD-PETRI demonstrates a significantly enhanced Unique Molecular Identifier (UMI) counts detection rate compared to PETRI-seq alone (Fig. 1C). This method recovered approximately 20175 cells (92.6% recovery rate) with ≥ 15 UMIs per cell with a median UMI count of 42 per cell, which was significantly higher than PETRI-seq's recovery rate of 17.9% with a median UMI count of 20 per cell (Figure S1A, B), indicating the number of detected mRNA per cell increased prominently.

      When we subsampled the RiboD-PETRI dataset to match the saturation level of the original PETRI-seq dataset (i.e., equalizing the n_deduped_reads/n_reads ratio), we found that the median UMIs/cell for all cells above the filter threshold was higher in the RiboD-PETRI dataset compared to the original PETRI-seq (as shown in Author response image 2). This observation can be primarily attributed to the introduction of the rRNA depletion step in the RiboD-PETRI method. ​Our analysis suggests that rRNA depletion not only reduces the cost of sequencing to saturation but also provides additional benefits in UMI capture efficiency at comparable saturation levels.​The rRNA depletion step effectively reduces the proportion of rRNA-derived reads in the sequencing output. Consequently, at equivalent saturation levels, this leads to a relative increase in the number of n_deduped_reads corresponding to mRNA transcripts. This shift in read composition enhances the capture of informative UMIs, resulting in improved transcript diversity and detection.

      In conclusion, our findings indicate that the rRNA depletion step in RiboD-PETRI offers dual advantages: it decreases the cost to sequence to saturation and provides enhanced UMI capture benefits at comparable saturation levels, ultimately leading to more efficient and informative single-cell transcriptome profiling.

      Author response image 2.

      At almost the same sequencing saturation (64% and 67%), the number of cells exceeding the screening criteria (≥15 UMIs ) and the median number of UMIs in cells in Ribod-PETRI and PETRI-seq data of exponential period E. coli (3h).

      - smRandom-seq and BaSSSh-seq need to also be discussed since these newer methods are also demonstrating rRNA depletion techniques. (https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-023-40137-9 and https://doi.org/10.1101/2024.06.28.601229)

      Thank you for your valuable feedback. We appreciate the opportunity to discuss our method, RiboD-PETRI, in the context of other recent advances in bacterial RNA sequencing techniques, particularly smRandom-seq and BaSSSh-seq.

      RiboD-PETRI employs a Ribosomal RNA-derived cDNA Depletion (RiboD) protocol. This method uses probe primers that span all regions of the bacterial rRNA sequence, with the 3'-end complementary to rRNA-derived cDNA and the 5'-end complementary to a biotin-labeled universal primer. After hybridization, Streptavidin magnetic beads are used to eliminate the hybridized rRNA-derived cDNA, leaving mRNA-derived cDNA in the supernatant. smRandom-seq utilizes a CRISPR-based rRNA depletion technique. This method is designed for high-throughput single-microbe RNA sequencing and has been shown to reduce the rRNA proportion from 83% to 32%, effectively increasing the mRNA proportion four times (from 16% to 63%). While specific details about BaSSSh-seq's rRNA depletion technique are not provided in the available information, it is described as employing a rational probe design for efficient rRNA depletion. This technique aims to minimize the loss of mRNA during the depletion process, ensuring a more accurate representation of the transcriptome.

      RiboD-PETRI demonstrates significant enhancement in rRNA-derived cDNA depletion across both gram-negative and gram-positive bacterial species. It increases the mRNA ratio from 8.2% to 81% for E. coli in exponential phase, from 10% to 92% for S. aureus in stationary phase, and from 3.9% to 54% for C. crescentus in exponential phase. smRandom-seq shows high species specificity (99%), a minor doublet rate (1.6%), and a reduced rRNA percentage (32%). These metrics indicate its efficiency in single-microbe RNA sequencing. While specific performance metrics for BaSSSh-seq are not provided in the available information, its rational probe design approach suggests a focus on maintaining mRNA integrity during the depletion process.

      RiboD-PETRI is described as a cost-effective ($0.0049 per cell), equipment-free, and high-throughput solution for bacterial scRNA-seq. This makes it an attractive option for researchers with budget constraints. While specific cost information is not provided, the efficiency of smRandom-seq is noted to be affected by the overwhelming quantity of rRNAs (>80% of mapped reads). The CRISPR-based depletion technique likely adds to the complexity and cost of the method. Cost and accessibility information for BaSSSh-seq is not provided in the available data, making a direct comparison difficult.

      All three methods represent significant advancements in bacterial RNA sequencing, each offering unique approaches to the challenge of rRNA depletion. RiboD-PETRI stands out for its cost-effectiveness and demonstrated success in complex systems like biofilms. Its ability to significantly increase mRNA ratios across different bacterial species and growth phases is particularly noteworthy. smRandom-seq's CRISPR-based approach offers high specificity and efficiency, which could be advantageous in certain research contexts, particularly where single-microbe resolution is crucial. However, the complexity of the CRISPR system might impact its accessibility and cost-effectiveness. BaSSSh-seq's focus on minimizing mRNA loss during depletion could be beneficial for studies requiring highly accurate transcriptome representations, although more detailed performance data would be needed for a comprehensive comparison. The choice between these methods would depend on specific research needs. RiboD-PETRI's cost-effectiveness and proven application in biofilm studies make it particularly suitable for complex bacterial community analyses. smRandom-seq might be preferred for studies requiring high-throughput single-cell resolution. BaSSSh-seq could be the method of choice when preserving the integrity of the mRNA profile is paramount.

      In conclusion, while all three methods offer valuable solutions for rRNA depletion in bacterial RNA sequencing, RiboD-PETRI's combination of efficiency, cost-effectiveness, and demonstrated application in complex biological systems positions it as a highly competitive option in the field of bacterial transcriptomics.

      We have revised our discussion in the manuscript according to the above analysis (lines 116-119)

      - Ctrl and Delta-Delta abbreviations are used in main text but not defined there (lines 107-110).

      Thank you for your valuable feedback. We have now defined the abbreviations "Ctrl" and "Delta-Delta" in the main text for clarity.

      - The utility of Figs 2E and 3E is questionable - the same information can be conveyed in text.

      Thank you for your thoughtful observation regarding Figures 2E and 3E. We appreciate your feedback and would like to address the concerns you've raised.

      While we acknowledge that some of the information in these figures could be conveyed textually, we believe that their visual representation offers several advantages. Figures 2E and 3E provide a comprehensive visual overview of the pathway enrichment analysis for marker genes, which may be more easily digestible than a textual description. This analysis was conducted in response to another reviewer's request, demonstrating our commitment to addressing diverse perspectives in our research.

      These figures allow for a systematic interpretation of gene expression data, revealing complex interactions between genes and their involvement in biological pathways that might be less apparent in a text-only format. Visual representations can make complex data more accessible to readers with different learning styles or those who prefer graphical summaries. Additionally, including such figures is consistent with standard practices in our field, facilitating comparison with other studies. We believe that the pathway enrichment analysis results presented in these figures provide valuable insights that merit inclusion as visual elements.​ However, we are open to discussing alternative ways to present this information if you have specific suggestions for improvement.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      We thank the reviewers for their thorough re-evaluation of our revised manuscript. Addressing final issues they raised has improved the manuscript further. We sincerely appreciate the detailed explanations that the reviewers provided in the "recommendations for authors" section. This comprehensive feedback helped us identify the sources of ambiguity within the analysis descriptions and in the discussion where we interpreted the results. Below, you will find our responses to the specific comments and recommendations.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations):

      (1) I find that the manuscript has improved significantly from the last version, especially in terms of making explicit the assumptions of this work and competing models. I think the response letter makes a good case that the existence of other research makes it more likely that oscillators are at play in the study at hand (though the authors might consider incorporating this argumentation a bit more into the paper too). Furthermore, the authors' response that the harmonic analysis is valid even when including x=y because standard correlation analysis were not significant is a helpful response. The key issue that remains for me is that I have confusions about the additional analyses prompted by my review to a point where I find it hard to evaluate how and whether they demonstrate entrainment or not. 

      First, I don't fully understand Figure 2B and how it confirms the Arnold tongue slice prediction. In the response letter the authors write: "...indicating that accuracy increased towards the preferred rate at fast rates and decreased as the stimulus rate diverged from the preferred rate at slow rates". The figure shows that, but also more. The green line (IOI < preferred rate) indeed increases toward the preferred rate (which is IOI = 0 on the x-axis; as I get it), but then it continues to go up in accuracy even after the preferred rate. And for the blue line, performance also continues to go up beyond preferred rate. Wouldn't the Arnold tongue and thus entrainment prediction be that accuracy goes down again after the preferred rate has passed? That is to say, shouldn't the pattern look like this (https://cdn.elifesciences.org/public-review-media/90735/v3/GPlt38F.png) which with linear regression should turn to a line with a slope of 0?

      This was my confusion at first, but then I thought longer about how e.g. the blue line is predicted only using trials with IOI larger than the preferred rate. If that is so, then shouldn't the plot look like this? (https://cdn.elifesciences.org/public-review-media/90735/v3/SmU6X73.png). But if those are the only data and the rest of the regression line is extrapolation, why does the regression error vary in the extrapolated region? It would be helpful if the authors could clarify this plot a bit better. Ideally, they might want to include the average datapoints so it becomes easier to understand what is being fitted. As a side note, colours blue/green have a different meaning in 2B than 2D and E, which might be confusing. 

      We thank the reviewer for their recommendation to clarify the additional analyses we ran in the previous revision to assess whether accuracy systematically increased toward the preferred rate estimate. We realized that the description of the regression analysis led to misunderstandings. In particular, we think that the reviewer interpreted (1) our analysis as linear regression (based on the request to plot raw data rather than fits), whereas, in fact, we used logistic regression, and (2) the regression lines in Figure 2B as raw IOI values, while, in fact, they were the z-scored IOI values (from trials where stimulus IOI were faster than an individual’s preferred rate, IOI < preferred rate, in green; and from trials stimulus IOI were slower than an individual’s preferred rate, IOI > preferred rate, in blue), as the x axis label depicted. We are happy to have the opportunity to clarify these points in the manuscript. We have also revised Figure 2B, which was admittedly maybe a bit opaque, to more clearly show the “Arnold tongue slice”.  

      The logic for using (1) logistic regression with (2) Z-scored IOI values as the predictor is as follows. Since the response variable in this analysis, accuracy, was binary (correct response = 1, incorrect response = 0), we used a logistic regression. The goal was to quantify an acrosssubjects effect (increase in accuracy toward preferred rate), so we aggregated datasets across all participants into the model. The crucial point here is that each participant had a different preferred rate estimate. Let’s say participant A had the estimate at IOI = 400 ms, and participant B had an estimate at IOI = 600 ms. The trials where IOI was faster than participant A’s estimate would then be those ranging from 200 ms to 398 ms, and those that were slower would range from 402 ms to 998 ms. For Participant B, the situation would be different:  trials where IOI was faster than their estimate would range from 200 ms to 598 ms, and slower trials would range between 602 ms to 998 ms. For a fair analysis that assesses the accuracy increase, regardless of a participant’s actual preferred rate, we normalized these IOI values (faster or slower than the preferred rate). Zscore normalization is a common method of normalizing predictors in regression models, and was especially important here since we were aggregating predictors across participants, and the predictors ranges varied across participants. Z-scoring ensured that the scale of the sample (that differs between participant A and B, in this example) was comparable across the datasets. This is also important for the interpretation of Figure 2B. Since Z-scoring involves mean subtraction, the zero point on the Z-scaled IOI axis corresponds to the mean of the sample prior to normalization (for Participant A: 299 ms, for Participant B: 399 ms) and not the preferred rate estimate. We have now revised Figure 2B in a way that we think makes this much clearer.  

      The manuscript text includes clarification that the analyses included logistic regression and stimulus IOI was z-scored: 

      “In addition to estimating the preferred rate as stimulus rates with peak performance, we investigated whether accuracy increased as a function of detuning, namely, the difference between stimulus rate and preferred rate, as predicted by the entrainment models (Large, 1994; McAuley, 1995; Jones, 2018). We tested this prediction by assessing the slopes of mixed-effects logistic regression models, where accuracy was regressed on the IOI condition, separately for stimulus rates that were faster or slower than an individual’s preferred rate estimate. To do so, we first z-scored IOIs that were faster and slower than the participant’s preferred rate estimates, separately to render IOI scales comparable across participants.” (p. 7)

      While thinking through the reviewer’s comment, we realized we could improve this analysis by fitting mixed effects models separately to sessions’ data. In these models, fixed effects were z-scored IOI and ‘detuning direction’ (i.e., whether IOI was faster or slower than the participant’s preferred rate estimate). To control for variability across participants in the predicted interaction between z-scored IOI and direction, this interaction was added as a random effect. 

      “Ideally, they might want to include the average datapoints so it becomes easier to understand what is being fitted.”

      Although we agree with the reviewer that including average datapoints in a figure in addition to model predictions usually better illustrates what is being fitted than the fits alone, this doesn’t work super well for logistic regression, since the dependent variable is binary. To try to do a better job illustrating single-participant data though, we instead  fitted logistic models to each participant’s single session datasets, separately to conditions where z-scored IOI from fasterthan-preferred rate trials, and those from slower-than-preferred rate trials, predicted accuracy. From these single-participant models, we obtained slope values, we referred to as ‘relative detuning slope’, for each condition and session type. This analysis allowed us to illustrate the effect of relative detuning on accuracy for each participant. Figure 2B now shows each participant’s best-fit lines from each detuning direction condition and session.

      Since we now had relative detuning slopes for each individual (which we did not before), we took advantage of this to assess the relationship between oscillator flexibility and the oscillator’s behavior in different detuning situations (how strongly leaving the preferred rate hurt accuracy, as a proxy for the width of the Arnold tongue slice). Theoretically, flexible oscillators should be able to synchronize to wide range of rates, not suffering in conditions where detuning is large (Pikovsky et al., 2003). Conversely, synchronization of inflexible oscillators should depend strongly on detuning. To test whether our flexibility measure predicted this dependence on detuning, which is a different angle on oscillator flexibility, we first averaged each participant’s detuning slopes across detuning directions (after sign-flipping one of them). Then, we assessed the correlation between the average detuning slopes and flexibility estimates, separately from conditions where |-𝚫IOI| or |+𝚫IOI| predicted accuracy. The results revealed significant negative correlations (Fig. 2F), suggesting that performance of individuals with less flexible oscillators suffered more as detuning increased. Note that flexibility estimates quantified how much accuracy decreased as a function of trial-to-trial changes in stimulus rate (±𝚫IOI). Thus, these results show that oscillators that were robust to changes in stimulus rate were also less dependent on detuning to be able to synchronize across a wide range of stimulus rates. We are excited to be able to provide this extra validation of predictions made by entrainment models. 

      To revise the manuscript with the updated analysis on detuning:

      • We added the descriptions of the analyses to the Experiment 1 Methods section.

      Calculation of detuning slopes and their averaging procedure are in Preferred rate estimates:

      “In addition to estimating the preferred rate as stimulus rates with peak performance, we investigated whether accuracy increased as a function of detuning, namely, the difference between stimulus rate and preferred rate, as predicted by the entrainment models (Large, 1994; McAuley, 1995; Jones, 2018). We tested this prediction by assessing the slopes of mixed-effects logistic regression models, where accuracy was regressed on the IOI condition, separately for stimulus rates that were faster or slower than an individual’s preferred rate estimate. To do so, we first z-scored IOIs that were faster and slower than the participant’s preferred rate estimates, separately to render IOI scales comparable across participants. The detuning direction (i.e., whether stimulus IOI was faster or slower than the preferred rate estimate) was coded categorically. Accuracy (binary) was predicted by these variables (zscored IOI, detuning direction), and their interaction. The model was fitted separately to datasets from random-order and linear-order sessions, using the fitglme function in MATLAB. Fixed effects were z-scored IOI and detuning direction and random effect was their interaction. We expected a systematic increase in performance toward the preferred rate, which would result in a significant interaction between stimulus rate and detuning direction. To decompose the significant interaction and to visualize the effects of detuning, we fitted separate models to each participant’s single-session datasets, and obtained slopes from each direction condition, hereafter denoted as the ‘relative-detuning slope’. We treated relative-detuning slope as an index of the magnitude of relative detuning effects on accuracy. We then evaluated these models, using the glmval function in MATLAB to obtain predicted accuracy values for each participant and session. To visualize the relative-detuning curves, we averaged the predicted accuracies across participants within each session, separately for each direction condition (faster or slower than the preferred rate). To obtain a single value of relative-detuning magnitude for each participant, we averaged relative detuning slopes across direction conditions. However, since slopes from IOI > preferred rate conditions quantified an accuracy decrease as a function of detuning, we sign-flipped these slopes before averaging. The resulting average relative detuning slopes, obtained from each participant’s single-session datasets, quantified how much the accuracy increase towards preferred rate was dependent on, in other words, sensitive to, relative detuning.” (p. 7-8)

      • We added the information on the correlation analyses between average detuning slopes in Flexibility estimates.

      “We further tested the relationship between the flexibility estimates (𝛽 from models where |𝚫IOI| or |+𝚫IOI| predicted accuracy) and average detuning slopes (see Preferred rate estimates) from random-order sessions. We predicted that flexible oscillators (larger 𝛽) would be less severely affected by detuning, and thus have smaller detuning slopes. Conversely, inflexible oscillators (smaller 𝛽) should have more difficulty in adapting to a large range of stimulus rates, and their adaptive abilities should be constrained around the preferred rate, as indexed by steeper relative detuning slopes.” (p. 8)

      • We provided the results in Experiment 1 Results section.

      “Logistic models assessing a systematic increase in accuracy toward the preferred rate estimate in each session type revealed significant main effects of IOI (linear-order session: 𝛽 = 0.264, p < .001; random-order session: 𝛽 = 0.175, p < .001), and significant interactions between IOI and direction (linear-order session: 𝛽 = -0.444, p < .001; random-order session: 𝛽 = -0.364, p < .001), indicating that accuracy increased as fast rates slowed toward the preferred rate (positive slopes) and decreased again as slow rates slowed further past the preferred rate (negative slopes), regardless of the session type. Fig. 2B illustrates the preferred rate estimation method for an example participant’s dataset and shows the predicted accuracy values from models fitted to each participant’s single-session datasets. Note that the main effect and interaction were obtained from mixed effects models that included aggregated datasets from all participants, whereas the slopes quantifying the accuracy increase as a function of detuning (i.e., relative detuning slopes) were from models fitted to single-participant datasets.” (p. 9-10)

      “We tested the relationship between the flexibility estimates and single-participant relative detuning slopes from random-order sessions (Fig. 2B). The results revealed negative correlations between the relative detuning slopes and flexibility estimates, both with 𝛽 (r(23) =0.529, p = 0.007) from models where |-𝚫IOI| predicted accuracy (adapting to speeding-up trials), and 𝛽 (r(23) =-0.580, p = 0.002) from models where |+𝚫IOI| predicted accuracy (adapting to slowing-down trials). That is, the performance of individuals with less flexible oscillators suffered more as detuning increased. These results are shown in Fig. 2F.” (p. 10)

      • We modified Figure 2. In Figure 2B, there are now separate subfigures with the z-scored IOI faster (left) or slower (right) than the preferred rate predicting accuracy. We illustrated the correlations between average relative detuning slopes and flexibility estimates in Figure 2F. 

      Author response image 1.

      Main findings of Experiment 1. A Left: Each circle represents a single participant’s preferred rate estimate from the random-order session (x axis) and linear-order session (y axis). The histograms along the top and right of the plot show the distributions of estimates for each session type. The dotted and dashed lines respectively represent 1:2 and 2:1 ratio between the axes, and the solid line represents one-to-one correspondence. Right: permutation test results. The distribution of summed residuals (distance of data points to the closest y=x, y=2*x and y=x/2 lines) of shuffled data over 1000 iterations, and the summed residual from original data (dashed line) that fell below .008 of the permutation distribution. B Top: Illustration of the preferred rate estimation method from an example participant’s linear-order session dataset. Estimates were the stimulus rates (IOI) where smoothed accuracy (orange line) was maximum (arrow). The dotted lines originating from the IOI axis delineate the stimulus rates that were faster (left, IOI < preferred rate) and slower (right, IOI > preferred rate) than the preferred rate estimate and expand those separate axes, the values of which were Z-scored for the relative-detuning analysis. Bottom: Predicted accuracy, calculated from single-participant models where accuracy in random-order (purple) and linear-order (orange) sessions was predicted by z-scored IOIs that were faster than a participant’s preferred rate estimate (left), and by those that were slower (right). Thin lines show predicted accuracy from single-participant models, solid lines show the averages across participants and the shaded areas represent standard error of the mean. Predicted accuracy is maximal at the preferred rate and decreases as a function of detuning. C Average accuracy from random-order (left, purple) and linear-order (right, orange) sessions. Each circle represents a participant’s average accuracy. D Flexibility estimates. Each circle represents an individuals’ slope (𝛽) obtained from logistic models, fitted separately to conditions where |𝚫IOI| (left, green) or |+𝚫IOI| (right blue) predicted accuracy, with greater values (arrow’s direction) indicating better oscillator flexibility. The means of the distributions of 𝛽 from both conditions were smaller than zero (dashed line), indicating a negative effect of between-trial absolute rate change on accuracy. E Participants’ average bias from |𝚫IOI| (green), and |+𝚫IOI| (blue) conditions in random-order (left) and linear-order (right) sessions. Negative bias indicates underestimation of the comparison intervals, positive bias indicates the opposite. Box plots in C-E show median (black vertical line), 25th and 75th percentiles (box edges) and extreme datapoints (whiskers). In C and E, empty circles show outlier values that remained after data cleaning procedures. F Correlations between participants’ average relative detuning slopes, indexing the steepness of the increase in accuracy towards the preferred rate estimate (from panel B), and flexibility estimates from |-𝚫IOI| (top, green), and |+𝚫IOI| (bottom, blue) conditions (from panel C). Solid black lines represent the best-fit line, dashed lines represent 95% confidence intervals.

      • We discussed the results in General Discussion and emphasized that only entrainment models, compared to timekeeper models, predict a relationship between detuning and accuracy that is amplified by oscillator’s inflexibility: “we observed systematic increases in task accuracy (Experiment 1) toward the best-performance rates (i.e., preferred rate estimates), with the steepness of this increase being closely related to the effects of rate change (i.e., oscillator flexibility). Two interdependent properties of an underlying system together modulating an individual’s timing responses show strong support for the entrainment approach” (p. 24)

      “As a side note, colours blue/green have a different meaning in 2B than 2D and E, which might be confusing.” 

      Upon the reviewer’s recommendation, we changed the color scale across Figure 2, such that colors refer to the same set of conditions across all panels. 

      (2) Second, I don't understand the additional harmonic relationship analyses in the appendix, and I suspect other readers will not either. As with the previous point, it is not my view that the analyses are faulty or inadequate, it is rather that the lack of clarity makes it challenging to evaluate whether they support an entrainment model or not. 

      We decided to remove the analysis that was based on a circular approach, and we have clarified the analysis that was based on a modular approach by giving example cases: 

      “We first calculated how much the slower estimate (larger IOI value) diverts, proportionally from the faster estimate (smaller IOI value) or its multiples (i.e., harmonics) by normalizing the estimates from both sessions by the faster estimate. The outcome measure was the modulus of the slower, with respect to the faster estimate, divided by the faster estimate, described as mod(max(X), min(X))/min(X) where X = [session1_estimate session2_estimate]. An example case would be a preferred rate estimate of IOI = 603 ms from the linear-order session and an estimate of IOI = 295 ms from the random-order session. In this case, the slower estimate (603 ms) diverts from the multiple of the faster estimate (295*2 = 590 ms) by 13 ms, a proportional deviation of 4% of the faster estimate (295 ms). The outcome measure in this example is calculated as mod(603,295)/295 = 0.04.” (Supplementary Information, p. 2)

      Crucially, the ability of oscillators to respond to harmonically-related stimulus rates is a main distinction between entrainment and interval (timekeeper) models. In the current study, we found that each participant’s best-performance rates, the preferred rate estimates, had harmonic relationships. The additional analyses further showed that these harmonic relationships were not due to chance. This finding speaks against the interval (timekeeper) approaches and is maximally compatible with the entrainment framework. 

      Here are a number of questions I would like to list to sketch my confusion: 

      • The authors write: "We first normalized each participant's estimates by rescaling the slower estimate with respect to the faster one and converting the values to radians". Does slower estimate mean: "task accuracy in those trials in which IOI was slower than a participant's preferred frequency"? 

      Preferred rate estimates were stimulus rates (IOI) with best performance, as described in Experiment 1 Methods section. 

      “We conceptualized individuals' preferred rates as the stimulus rates where durationdiscrimination accuracy was highest. To estimate preferred rate on an individual basis, we smoothed response accuracy across the stimulus-rate (IOI) dimension for each session type, using the smoothdata function in Matlab. Estimates of preferred rate were taken as the smoothed IOI that yielded maximum accuracy” (p. 7). 

      The estimation method and the resulting estimate for an example participant was provided in Figure 2B. The updated figure in the current revision has this illustration only for linear-order session. 

      “Estimates were the stimulus rates (IOI) where smoothed accuracy (orange line) was maximum (arrow)” (Figure caption, p. 9).

      • "We reasoned that values with integer-ratio relationships should correspond to the same phase on a unit circle". What is values here; IOI, or accuracy values for certain IOIs? And why should this correspond to the same phase? 

      We removed the analysis on integer-ratio relationships that was based on a circular approach that the reviewer is referring to here. We clarified the analysis that was based on a modular approach and avoided using the term ‘values’ without specifying what values corresponded to.

      • Des "integer-ratio relationships" have to do with the y=x, y=x*2 and y=x/2 relationships of the other analyses?  

      Integer-ratio relationships indeed refer to y=x, y=x*2 and y=x/2 relationships. For example, if a number y is double of another number x (y = x*2), these values have an integer-ratio relationship, since 2 is an integer. This holds true also for the case where y = x/2 since x = y*2. 

      • Supplementary Figure S2c shows a distribution of median divergences resulting from the modular approach. The p-value is 0.004 but the dashed line appears to be at a much higher percentile of the distribution. I find this hard to understand. 

      We thank the reviewer for a detailed inspection of all figures and information in the manuscript. The reviewer’s comment led us to realize that this figure had an error. We updated the figure in Supplementary Information (Supplementary Figure S2). 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      To get a better understanding of the mechanisms underlying the behavioral observations, it would have been useful to compare the observed pattern of results with simulations done with existing biophysical models. However, this point is addressed if the current study is read along with this other publication of the same research group: Kaya, E., & Henry, M. J. (2024, February 5). Modeling rhythm perception and temporal adaptation: top-down influences on a gradually decaying oscillator.       https://doi.org/10.31234/osf.io/q9uvr 

      We agree with the reviewer that the mechanisms underlying behavioral responses can be better understood by modeling approaches. We thank the reviewer for acknowledging our computational modeling study that addressed this concern. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations):

      I very much appreciate the thorough work done by the authors in assessing all reviewers' concerns. In this new version they clearly state the assumptions to be tested by their experiments, added extra analyses further strengthening the conclusions and point the reader to a neurocomputational model compatible with the current observations. 

      I only regret that the authors misunderstood the take home message of our Essay (Doelling & Assaneo 2021). Despite this being obviously out of the scope of the current work, I would like to take this opportunity to clarify this point. In that paper, we adopted a Stuart-Landau model not to determine how an oscillator should behave, but as an example to show that some behaviors usually used to prove or refute an underlying "oscillator like" mechanism can be falsified. We obviously acknowledge that some of the examples presented in that work are attainable by specific biophysical models, as explicitly stated in the essay: "There may well be certain conditions, equations, or parameters under which some of these commonly held beliefs are true. In that case, the authors who put forth these claims must clearly state what these conditions are to clarify exactly what hypotheses are being tested." 

      This work did not mean to delineate what oscillator is (or in not), but to stress the importance of explicitly introducing biophysical models to be tested instead of relying on vague definitions sometimes reflecting the researchers' own beliefs. The take home message that we wanted to deliver to the reader appears explicitly in the last paragraph of that essay: "We believe that rather than concerning ourselves with supporting or refuting neural oscillators, a more useful framework would be to focus our attention on the specific neural dynamics we hope to explain and to develop candidate quantitative models that are constrained by these dynamics. Furthermore, such models should be able to predict future recordings or be falsified by them. That is to say that it should no longer be sufficient to claim that a particular mechanism is or is not an oscillator but instead to choose specific dynamical systems to test. In so doing, we expect to overcome our looping debate and to ultimately develop-by means of testing many model types in many different experimental conditions-a fundamental understanding of cognitive processes and the general organization of neural behavior." 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s clarification of the take-home message from Doelling and Assaneo (2021). We concur with the assertions made in this essay, particularly regarding the benefits of employing computational modeling approaches. Such methodologies provide a nuanced and wellstructured foundation for theoretical predictions, thereby minimizing the potential for reductionist interpretations of behavioral or neural data.

      In addition, we would like to underscore the significance of delineating the level of analysis when investigating the mechanisms underlying behavioral or neural observations. The current study or Kaya & Henry (2024) involved no electrophysiological measures. Thus, we would argue that the appropriate level of analysis across our studies concerns the theoretical mechanisms rather than how these mechanisms are implemented on the neural (physical) level. In both studies, we aimed to explore or approximate the theoretical oscillator that guides dynamic attention rather than the neural dynamics underlying these theoretical processes. That is, theoretical (attentional) entrainment may not necessarily correspond to neural entrainment, and differentiating these levels could be informative about the parallels and differences between these levels. 

      References

      Doelling, K. B., & Assaneo, M. F. (2021). Neural oscillations are a start toward understanding brain activity rather than the end. PLoS Biol, 19(5), e3001234. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pbio.3001234  Jones, M. R. (2018). Time will tell: A theory of dynamic attending. Oxford University Press. 

      Kaya, E., & Henry, M. J. (2024). Modeling rhythm perception and temporal adaptation: top-down influences on a gradually decaying oscillator. PsyArxiv. https://doi.org/https://doi.org/10.31234/osf.io/q9uvr 

      Large, E. W. (1994). Dynamic representation of musical structure. The Ohio State University. 

      McAuley, J. D. (1995). Perception of time as phase: Toward an adaptive-oscillator model of rhythmic pattern processing Indiana University Bloomington]. 

      Pikovsky, A., Rosenblum, M., & Kurths, J. (2003). Synchronization: A Universal Concept in Nonlinear Sciences. Cambridge University Press.

    2. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      General response:

      We thank the reviewers for their thorough evaluation of our manuscript. Working on the raised concerns has improved the manuscript greatly. Specifically, the recommendations to clarify the adopted assumptions in the study strengthened the motivation for the study; further, following up some of the reviewers’ concerns with additional analyses validated our chosen measures and strengthened the compatibility of the findings with the predictions of the dynamic attending framework. Below, you will find our detailed point-by-point responses, along with information on specific revisions.

      The reviewers pointed out that study assumptions were unclear, some of the measures we chose were not well motivated, and the findings were not well enough explained considering possible alternatives. As suggested, we reformulated the introduction, explained the common assumptions of entrainment models that we adopted in the study, and further clarified how our chosen measures for the properties of the internal oscillators relate to these assumptions.

      We realized that the initial emphasis on the compatibility of the current findings with predictions of entrainment models might have led to the wrong impression that the current study aimed to test whether auditory rhythmic processing is governed by timekeeper or oscillatory mechanisms. However, testing these theoretical models to explain human behavior necessitates specific paradigms designed to compare the contrasting predictions of the models. A number of studies do so by manipulating regularity in a stimulus sequence or expectancy of stimulus onsets, or assessing the perceived timing of targets that follow a stimulus rhythm. Such paradigms allow testing the prediction that an oscillator, underlying perceptual timing, would entrain to a regular but not an irregular sequence. This would further lead to stronger expectancies at the peak of the oscillation, where 'attentional energy' is the highest. These studies report 'rhythmic facilitation', where targets that align with the peaks of the oscillation are better detected than those that do not (see Henry and Herrmann (2014) and Haegens and Zion Golumbic (2018) for reviews). Additionally, unexpected endings of standard intervals, preceded by a regular entraining sequence, lead to a biased estimation of subsequent comparison intervals, due to the contrast between the attentional oscillator's phase and a deviating stimulus onset (Barnes & Jones, 2000; Large & Jones, 1999; McAuley & Jones, 2003). Even a sequence rate that is the multiple of the to-be-judged standard and comparison intervals give rise to rhythmic facilitation (McAuley & Jones, 2003), and the expectancy of a stimulus onset modulates duration judgments. These findings are not compatible with predictions of timekeeper models as time intervals in these models are represented arbitrarily and are not affected by expectancy violations.

      In the current study, we adopted an entrainment approach to timing, rather than testing predictions of competing models. This choice was motivated by several aspects of entrainment models that align better with the aims of the current study. First, our focus was on understanding perception and production of rhythms, for which perception is better explained by entrainment models than by timekeeper models, which excel at explaining perception of isolated time intervals (McAuley, 2010). Moreover, we wanted to leverage the fact that entrainment models elegantly include parameters that can explain different aspects of timing abilities, and these parameters can be estimated in an individualized manner. For instance, the flexibility property of oscillators can be linked to the ability to adapt to changes in external context, while timekeeper or Bayesian timing approaches lack a specific mechanism to quantify temporal adaptation across perceptual and motor domains. Finally, that entrainment is observed across theoretical, behavioral, and neural levels renders entrainment models useful in explaining and generalizing behavior across different domains. Nevertheless, some results showed partial compatibility with predictions of the timekeeper models, such as the modulation of 'bestperformance rates' by the temporal context, observed in Experiment 1’ random-order sessions, where stimulus rates maximally differed across consecutive trials. However, given that the mean, standard deviation, and range of stimulus rates were identical across sessions, and timekeeper models assume no temporal adaptation in duration perception, we should have observed similar results across these sessions. Conversely, we found significant accuracy differences, biased duration judgments, and harmonic relationships between the best-performance rates. We elaborate more on these results with respect to their compatibility with the contrasting models of human temporal perception in the revised discussion.

      Responses to specific comments:

      (1.1) At times, I found it challenging to evaluate the scientific merit of this study from what was provided in the introduction and methods. It is not clear what the experiment assumes, what it evaluates, and which competing accounts or predictions are at play. While some of these questions are answered, clear ordering and argumentative flow is lacking. With that said, I found the Abstract and General Discussion much clearer, and I would recommend reformulating the early part of the manuscript based on the structure of those segments.

      Second, in my reading, it is not clear to what extent the study assumes versus demonstrates the entrainment of internal oscillators. I find the writing somewhat ambiguous on this count: on the one hand, an entrainment approach is assumed a priori to design the experiment ("an entrainment approach is adopted") yet a primary result of the study is that entrainment is how we perceive and produce rhythms ("Overall, the findings support the hypothesis that an oscillatory system with a stable preferred rate underlies perception and production of rhythm..."). While one could design an experiment assuming X and find evidence for X, this requires testing competing accounts with competing hypotheses -- and this was not done.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concerns and suggestion to clarify the assumptions of the study and how the current findings relate to the predictions of competing accounts. To address these concerns:

      • We added the assumptions of the entrainment models that we adopted in the Introduction section and reformulated the motivation to choose them accordingly.

      • We clarified in the Introduction that the study’s aim was not to test the entrainment models against alternative theories of rhythm perception.

      • We added a paragraph in the General Discussion to further distinguish predictions from the competing accounts. Here we discussed the compatibility of the findings with predictions of both entrainment and timekeeper models.

      • We rephrased reasoning in the Abstract, Introduction, and General Discussion to further clarify the aims of the study, and how the findings support the hypotheses of the current study versus those of the dynamic attending theory.

      (1.2) In my view, more evidence is required to bolster the findings as entrainment-based regardless of whether that is an assumption or a result. Indeed, while the effect of previous trials into the behaviour of the current trial is compatible with entrainment hypotheses, it may well be compatible with competing accounts as well. And that would call into question the interpretation of results as uncovering the properties of oscillating systems and age-related differences in such systems. Thus, I believe more evidence is needed to bolster the entrainment hypothesis.

      For example, a key prediction of the entrainment model -- which assumes internal oscillators as the mechanism of action -- is that behaviour in the SMT and PTT tasks follows the principles of Arnold's Tongue. Specifically, tapping and listening performance should worsen systematically as a function of the distance between the presented and preferred rate. On a participant-by-participant, does performance scale monotonically with the distance between the presented and preferred rate? Some of the analyses hint at this question, such as the effect of 𝚫IOI on accuracy, but a recontextualization, further analyses, or additional visualizations would be helpful to demonstrate evidence of a tongue-like pattern in the behavioural data. Presumably, non-oscillating models do not follow a tongue-like pattern, but again, it would be very instructive to explicitly discuss that.

      We thank the reviewer for the excellent suggestion of assessing 'Arnold's tongue' principles in timing performance. We agree that testing whether timing performance forms a pattern compatible with an Arnold tongue would further support our assumption that the findings related to preferred rate stem from an entrainment-based mechanism. We rather refer to the ‘entrainment region’, (McAuley et al., 2006) that corresponds to a slice in the Arnold tongue at a fixed stimulus intensity that entrains the internal oscillator. In both representations of oscillator behavior across a range of stimulus rates, performance should systematically increase as the difference between the stimulus rate and the oscillator's preferred rate, namely, 'detuning' decreases. In response to the reviewer’s comment, we ran further analyses to test this key prediction of entrainment models. We assessed performance at stimulus rates that were faster and slower than an individual's preferred rate estimates from in Experiment 1. To do so, we ran logistic regression models on aggregated datasets from all participants and sessions, where normalized IOI, in trials where the stimulus rate was faster than the preferred rate estimate, and in those where it was slower, predicted accuracy. Stimulus IOIs were normalized within each direction (faster- versus slower-than-preferred rate) using z-score transformation, and the direction was coded as categorical in the model. We reasoned that a positive slope for conditions with stimulus rates faster than IOI, and a negative slope from conditions with slower rates, should indicate a systematic accuracy increase toward the preferred rate estimate. This is exactly what we found. These results revealed significant main effect for the IOI and a significant interaction between IOI and direction, indicating that accuracy increased towards the preferred rate at fast rates and decreased as the stimulus rate diverged from the preferred rate at slow rates. We added these results to the respective subsections of Experiment 1 Methods and Results, added a plot showing the slices of the regression surfaces to Figure 2B and elaborated on the results in Experiment 1 Discussion. As the number of trials in Experiment 2 was much lower (N = 81), we only ran these additional analyses in Experiment 1.

      (1.3) Fourth, harmonic structure in behaviour across tasks is a creative and useful metric for bolstering the entrainment hypothesis specifically because internal oscillators should display a preference across their own harmonics. However, I have some doubts that the analyses as currently implemented indicate such a relationship. Specifically, the main analysis to this end involves summing the residuals of the data closest to y=x, y=2*x and y=x/2 lines and evaluating whether this sum is significantly lower than for shuffled data. Out of these three dimensions, y=x does not comprise a harmonic, and this is an issue because it could by itself drive the difference of summed residuals with the shuffled data. I am uncertain whether rerunning the same analysis with the x=y dimension excluded constitutes a simple resolution because presumably there are baseline differences in the empirical and shuffled data that do not have to do with harmonics that would leak into the analysis. To address this, a simulation with ground truths could be helpful to justify analyses, or a different analysis that evaluates harmonic structure could be thought of.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the weakness of the permutation test we developed to assess the harmonic relationship between Experiment 1’s preferred rate estimates. Datapoints that fall on the y=x line indeed do not represent harmonic relationships. They rather indicate one-to-one correspondence between the axes, which is a stronger indicator of compatibility between the estimates. Maybe speaking to the reviewer’s point, standard correlation analyses were not significant, which would have been expected if the permutation results were being driven by the y=x relationship. This was the reason we developed the permutation test to include integer-ratio datapoints could also contribute.

      Based on reviewer’s comment, we ran additional analyses to assess the harmonic relationships between the estimates. The first analysis involved a circular approach. We first normalized each participant’s estimates by rescaling the slower estimate with respect to the faster one by division; and converted the values to radians, since a pair of values with an integer-ratio relationship should correspond to the same phase on a unit circle. Then, we assessed whether the resulting distribution of normalized values differed from a uniform distribution, using Rayleigh’s test, which was significant (p = .004). The circular mean of the distribution was 44 (SD = 53) degrees (M = 0.764, SD = 0.932 radians), indicating that the slower estimates were slightly slower than the fast estimate or its duplicates. As this distribution was skewed toward positive values due to the normalization procedure, we did not compare it against zero angle. Instead, we ran a second test, which was a modular approach. We first calculated how much the slower estimate deviated proportionally from the faster estimate or its multiples (i.e., subharmonics) by normalizing the estimates from both sessions by the faster estimate. The outcome measure was the modulus of the slower, relative to the faster estimate, divided by the faster estimate. Then, we ran a permutation test, shuffling the linear-order session estimates over 1000 iterations and taking the median percent deviation values for each iteration. The test statistic was significant (p = .004), indicating that the harmonic relationships we observed in the estimates were not due to chance or dependent on the assessment method. We added these details of additional analyses to assess harmonic relationships between the Experiment 1 preferred rate estimates in the Supplementary Information.

      (2.1) The current study is presented in the framework of the ongoing debate of oscillator vs. timekeeper mechanisms underlying perceptual and motor timing, and authors claim that the observed results support the former mechanism. In this line, every obtained result is related by the authors to a specific ambiguous (i.e., not clearly related to a biophysical parameter) feature of an internal oscillator. As pointed out by an essay on the topic (Doelling & Assaneo, 2021), claiming that a pattern of results is compatible with an "oscillator" could be misleading, since some features typically used to validate or refute such mechanisms are not well grounded on real biophysical models. Relatedly, a recent study (Doelling et al., 2022) shows that two quantitatively different computational algorithms (i.e., absolute vs relative timing) can be explained by the same biophysical model. This demonstrates that what could be interpreted as a timekeeper, or an oscillator can represent the same biophysical model working under different conditions. For this reason, if authors would like to argue for a given mechanism underlying their observations, they should include a specific biophysical model, and test its predictions against the observed behavior. For example, it's not clear why authors interpret the observation of the trial's response being modulated by the rate of the previous one, as an oscillator-like mechanism underlying behavior. As shown in (Doelling & Assaneo, 2021) a simple oscillator returns to its natural frequency as soon as the stimulus disappears, which will not predict the long-lasting effect of the previous trial. Furthermore, a timekeeper-like mechanism with a long enough integration window is compatible with this observation.

      Still, authors can choose to disregard this suggestion, and not testing a specific model, but if so, they should restrict this paper to a descriptive study of the timing phenomena.

      We thank the reviewer for their valuable suggestion of to include a biophysical model to further demonstrate the compatibility of the current findings with certain predictions of the model. While we acknowledge the potential benefits of implementing a biophysical model to understand the relationships between model parameters and observed behavior, this goes beyond the scope of the current study.

      We note that we have employed a modeling approach in a subsequent study to further explore how the properties and the resulting behavior of an oscillator map onto the patterns of human behavior we observed in the current study (Kaya & Henry, 2024, February 5). In that study, we fitted a canonical oscillator model, and several variants thereof, separately to datasets obtained from random-order and linear-order sessions of Experiment 1 of the current submission. The base model, adapted from McAuley and Jones (2003), assumed sustained oscillations within the trials of the experiment, and complete decay towards the preferred rate between the trials. We introduced a gradual decay parameter (Author response image 1A) that weighted between the oscillator's concurrent period value at the time of decay and its initial period (i.e., preferred rate). This parameter was implemented only within trials, between the standard stimulus sequence and comparison interval in Variant 1, between consecutive trials in Variant 2, and at both temporal locations in Variant 3. Model comparisons (Author response image 1B) showed that Variant 3 was the best-fitting model for both random- and linear-order datasets. Crucially, estimates for within- and between-trial decay parameters, obtained from Variant 3, were positively correlated, suggesting that oscillators gradually decayed towards their preferred rate at similar timescales after cessation of a stimulus.

      Author response image 1.

      (A) Illustration of the model fitted to Experiment 1 datasets and (B) model comparison results. In each trial, the model is initialized with a phase (ɸ) and period (P) value. A At the offset of each stimulus interval i, the model updates its phase (pink arrows) and period (blue arrows) depending on the temporal contrast (C) between the model state and stimulus onset and phase and period correction weights, Wɸ and Wp. Wdecaywithin updates the model period as a weighted average between the period calculated for the 5th interval, P5, and model’s preferred rate, P0. C, calculated at the offset of the comparison interval. Wdecaybetween parameter initializes the model period at the beginning of a new trial as a weighted average between the last period from the previous trial and P0. The base model’s assumptions are marked by asterisks, namely sustained oscillation during the silence (i=5), and complete decay between trials. B Left: The normalized probability of each model having the minimum BIC value across all models and across participants. Right: AICc, calculated from each model’s fit to participants’ single-session datasets. In both panels, random-order and linear-order sessions were marked in green and blue, respectively. B denotes the base model, and V1, V2 and V3 denote variants 1, 2 and 3, respectively.

      Although our behavioral results and modeling thereof must necessarily be interpreted as reflecting the mechanics of an attentional, but not a neural oscillator, these findings might shed light on the controversy in neuroscience research regarding the timeline of entrainment decay. While multiple studies show that neural oscillations can continue at the entrained rate for a number of cycles following entrainment (Bouwer et al., 2023; Helfrich et al., 2017; Lakatos et al., 2013; van Bree et al., 2021), different modeling approaches reveal mixed results on this phenomenon. Whereas Doelling and Assaneo (2021) show that a Stuart-Landau oscillator returns immediately back to its preferred rate after synchronizing to an external stimulus, simulations of other oscillator types suggest gradual decay toward the preferred rate (Large, 1994; McAuley, 1995; Obleser et al., 2017) or self-sustained oscillation at the external stimulus rate (Nachstedt et al., 2017).

      While the Doelling & Assaneo study (2021) provides insights on entrainment and behavior of the Stuart-Landau oscillator under certain conditions, the internal oscillators hypothesized by the dynamic attending theory might have different forms, therefore may not adhere to the behavior of a specific implementation of an oscillator model. Moreover, that a phase-coupled oscillator does not show gradual decay does not preclude that models with period tracking behave similarly. Adaptive frequency oscillators, for instance, are able to sustain the oscillation after the stimulus ceases (Nachstedt et al., 2017). Alongside with models that use Hebbian learning (Roman et al., 2023), the main implementations of the dynamic attending theory have parameters for period tracking and decay towards the preferred rate (Large, 1994; McAuley, 1995). In fact, the u-shaped pattern of duration discrimination sensitivity across a range of stimulus rates (Drake & Botte, 1993) is better explained by a decaying than a non-decaying oscillator (McAuley, 1995). To conclude, the literature suggests that the emergence of decay versus sustain behavior of the oscillators and the timeline of decay depend on the particular model used as well as its parameters and does therefore not offer a one-for-all solution.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      • Are the range, SD and mean of the random-order and linear-order sessions different? If so, why?

      Information regarding the SD and mean of the random-order and linear-order sessions was added to Experiment 1 Methods section.

      “While the mean (M = 599 ms), standard deviation (SD = 231 ms) and range (200, 998 ms) of the presented stimulus IOIs were identical between the sessions, the way IOI changed from trial to trial was different.“ (p. 5)

      • Perhaps the title could mention the age-related flexibility effect you demonstrate, which is an important contribution that without inclusion in the title could be missed in literature searches.

      We have changed the title to include age-related changes in oscillator flexibility. Thanks for the great suggestion.

      • Is the statistical analysis in Figure 4A between subjects? Shouldn't the analyses be within subjects?

      We have now better specified that the statistical analyses of Experiment 2’s preferred rate estimates were across the tasks, in Figure 4 caption.

      "Vertical lines above the box plots represent within-participants pairwise comparisons." (p. 17)

      • It says participants' hearing thresholds were measured using standard puretone audiometry. What threshold warranted participant exclusion and how many participants were excluded on the basis of hearing skills?

      We have now clarified that hearing threshold was not an exclusion criterion.

      "Participants were not excluded based on hearing threshold." (p. 11)

      • "Tapping rates from 'fastest' and 'slowest' FMT trials showed no difference between pre- and postsession measurements, and were additionally correlated across repeated measurements" - could you point to the statistics for this comparison?

      Table 2 includes the results from both experiments’ analyses on unpaced tapping. (p. 10)

      “The results of the pairwise comparisons between tapping rates from all unpaced tapping tasks across measurements are provided in Table 2.” (p. 15)

      • How was the loudness (dB) of the woodblock stimuli determined on a participant-by-participant basis? Please ignore if I missed this.

      Participants were allowed to set the volume to a comfortable level.

      "Participants then set the sound volume to a level that they found comfortable for completing the task." (p. 4)

      • Please spell out IOI, DEV, and other terms in full the first time they are mentioned in the manuscript.

      We added the descriptions of abbreviations before their initial mention.

      "In each experimental session, 400 unique trials of this task were presented, each consisting of a combination of the three main independent variables: the inter-onset interval, IOI; amount of deviation of the comparison interval from the standard, DEV, and the amount of change in stimulus IOI between consecutive trials, 𝚫IOI. We explain each of these variables in detail in the next paragraphs." (p. 4)

      • Small point: In Fig 1 sub-text, random order and linear order are explained in reverse order from how they are presented in the figure.

      We fixed the incompatibility between of Figure 1 content and caption.

      • Small point: I found the elaborate technical explanation of windowing methods, including alternatives that were not used, unnecessary.

      We moved the details of the smoothing analysis to the Supplementary Information.

      • With regard to the smoothing explanation, what is an "element"? Is this a sample? If so, what was the sampling rate?

      We reworded ‘element’ as ‘sample’. In the smoothing analyses, the sampling rate was the size of the convolution window, which was set to 26 for random-order, 48 for linear-order sessions.

      • Spelling/language error: "The pared-down", "close each other", "always small (+4 ms), than".

      We fixed the spelling errors.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      • My main concern is the one detailed as a weakness in the public review. In that direction, if authors decide to keep the mechanistic interpretation of the outcomes (which I believe is a valuable one) here I suggest a couple of models that they can try to adapt to explain the pattern of results:

      a. Roman, Iran R., et al. "Hebbian learning with elasticity explains how the spontaneous motor tempo affects music performance synchronization." PLOS Computational Biology 19.6 (2023): e1011154.

      b. Bose, Amitabha, Áine Byrne, and John Rinzel. "A neuromechanistic model for rhythmic beat generation." PLoS Computational Biology 15.5 (2019): e1006450.

      c. Egger, Seth W., Nhat M. Le, and Mehrdad Jazayeri. "A neural circuit model for human sensorimotor timing." Nature Communications 11.1 (2020): 3933.

      d. Doelling, K. B., Arnal, L. H., & Assaneo, M. F. (2022). Adaptive oscillators provide a hard-coded Bayesian mechanism for rhythmic inference. bioRxiv, 2022-06

      Thanks for the suggestion! Please refer to our response (2.1.) above. To summarize, although we considered a full, well-fleshed-out modeling approach to be beyond the scope of the current work, we are excited about and actively working on exactly this. Our modeling take is available as a preprint (Kaya & Henry, 2024, February 5).

      • Since the authors were concerned with the preferred rate they circumscribed the analysis to extract the IOI with better performance. Would it be plausible to explore how is the functional form between accuracy and IOI? This could shed some light on the underlying mechanism.

      Unfortunately, we were unsure about what the reviewer meant by the functional form between accuracy and IOI. We interpret it to mean a function that takes IOI as input and outputs an accuracy value. In that case, while we agree that estimating this function might indeed shed light on the underlying mechanisms, this type of analysis is beyond the scope of the current study. Instead, we refer the reviewer and reader to our modeling study (please see our response (2.1.) above) that includes a model which takes the stimulus conditions, including IOI, and model parameters for preferred rate, phase and period correction and within- and between-trial decay and outputs predicted accuracy for each trial. We believe that such modeling approach, as compared to a simple function, gives more insights regarding the relationship between oscillator properties and duration perception.

      • Is the effect caused by the dIOI modulated by the distance to the preferred frequency?

      We thank the reviewer for the recommendation. We measured flexibility by the oscillator's ability to adapt to on-line changes in the temporal context (i.e., effect of 𝚫IOI on accuracy), rather than by quantifying the range of rates with improved accuracy. Nevertheless, we acknowledge that distance to the preferred rate should decrease accuracy, as this is a key prediction of entrainment models. In fact, testing this prediction was recommended also by the other reviewer, in response to which we ran additional analyses. These analyses involved assessment of the relationship between accuracy and detuning. Specifically, we assessed accuracy at stimulus rates that were faster and slower than an individual's preferred rate estimates from in Experiment 1. We ran logistic regression models on aggregated datasets from all participants and sessions, where accuracy was predicted by z-scored IOI, from trials where the stimulus rate was faster than the preferred rate estimate, and in those where it was slower. The model had a significant main effect of IOI and an interaction between IOI and direction (i.e., whether stimulus rate was faster or slower than the preferred rate estimate), indicating that accuracy increased towards the preferred rate at fast rates and decreased as the stimulus rate diverged from the preferred rate at slow rates. We added information regarding this analysis to the respective subsections of Experiment 1 Methods and Results, added a plot showing the slices of the regression surfaces to Figure 2B and elaborated on the results in Experiment 1 Discussion. As the number of trials in Experiment 2 was insufficient, we only ran these additional analyses in Experiment 1. We agree that a range-based measure of oscillator flexibility would also index the oscillators’ adaptive abilities. However, the current paradigms were designed for assessment of temporal adaptation. Thus, comparison of the two approaches to measuring oscillator flexibility, which can be addressed in future studies, is beyond the scope of the current study.

      • Did the authors explore if the "motor component" (the difference between the motor and perceptual rates) is modulated by the participants age?

      In response to the reviewer’s comment, we correlated the difference between the motor and perceptual rates with age, which was nonsignificant.

      • Please describe better the slider and the keypress tasks. For example, what are the instructions given to the participant on each task, and how they differ from each other?

      We added the Experiment 2 instructions in Appendix A.

      • Typos: The caption in figure one reads 2 ms, while I believe it should say 200. Page 4 mentions that there are 400 trials and page 5 says 407.

      We fixed the typos.

      References

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      Bouwer, F. L., Fahrenfort, J. J., Millard, S. K., Kloosterman, N. A., & Slagter, H. A. (2023). A Silent Disco: Differential Effects of Beat-based and Pattern-based Temporal Expectations on Persistent Entrainment of Low-frequency Neural Oscillations. J Cogn Neurosci, 35(6), 9901020. https://doi.org/10.1162/jocn_a_01985

      Doelling, K. B., Arnal, L. H., & Assaneo, M. F. (2022). Adaptive oscillators provide a hard-coded Bayesian mechanism for rhythmic inference. bioRxiv. https://doi.org/10.1101/2022.06.18.496664

      Doelling, K. B., & Assaneo, M. F. (2021). Neural oscillations are a start toward understanding brain activity rather than the end. PLoS Biol, 19(5), e3001234. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pbio.3001234

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      Haegens, S., & Zion Golumbic, E. (2018). Rhythmic facilitation of sensory processing: A critical review. Neurosci Biobehav Rev, 86, 150-165. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neubiorev.2017.12.002

      Helfrich, R. F., Huang, M., Wilson, G., & Knight, R. T. (2017). Prefrontal cortex modulates posterior alpha oscillations during top-down guided visual perception. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A, 114(35), 9457-9462. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1705965114

      Henry, M. J., & Herrmann, B. (2014). Low-Frequency Neural Oscillations Support Dynamic Attending in Temporal Context. Timing & Time Perception, 2(1), 62-86. https://doi.org/10.1163/22134468-00002011

      Kaya, E., & Henry, M. J. (2024, February 5). Modeling rhythm perception and temporal adaptation: top-down influences on a gradually decaying oscillator. https://doi.org/10.31234/osf.io/q9uvr

      Lakatos, P., Musacchia, G., O'Connel, M. N., Falchier, A. Y., Javitt, D. C., & Schroeder, C. E. (2013). The spectrotemporal filter mechanism of auditory selective attention. Neuron, 77(4), 750-761. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2012.11.034

      Large, E. W. (1994). Dynamic representation of musical structure. The Ohio State University.

      Large, E. W., & Jones, M. R. (1999). The dynamics of attending: How people track time-varying events. Psychological Review, 106(1), 119-159. https://doi.org/Doi 10.1037/0033295x.106.1.119

      McAuley, J. D. (1995). Perception of time as phase: Toward an adaptive-oscillator model of rhythmic pattern processing Indiana University Bloomington].

      McAuley, J. D. (2010). Tempo and Rhythm. In Music Perception (pp. 165-199). https://doi.org/10.1007/978-1-4419-6114-3_6

      McAuley, J. D., & Jones, M. R. (2003). Modeling effects of rhythmic context on perceived duration: a comparison of interval and entrainment approaches to short-interval timing. J Exp Psychol Hum Percept Perform, 29(6), 1102-1125. https://doi.org/10.1037/0096-1523.29.6.1102

      McAuley, J. D., Jones, M. R., Holub, S., Johnston, H. M., & Miller, N. S. (2006). The time of our lives: life span development of timing and event tracking. J Exp Psychol Gen, 135(3), 348-367. https://doi.org/10.1037/0096-3445.135.3.348

      Nachstedt, T., Tetzlaff, C., & Manoonpong, P. (2017). Fast Dynamical Coupling Enhances Frequency Adaptation of Oscillators for Robotic Locomotion Control. Front Neurorobot, 11, 14. https://doi.org/10.3389/fnbot.2017.00014

      Obleser, J., Henry, M. J., & Lakatos, P. (2017). What do we talk about when we talk about rhythm? PLoS Biol, 15(9), e2002794. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pbio.2002794

      Roman, I. R., Roman, A. S., Kim, J. C., & Large, E. W. (2023). Hebbian learning with elasticity explains how the spontaneous motor tempo affects music performance synchronization. PLoS Comput Biol, 19(6), e1011154. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1011154<br /> van Bree, S., Sohoglu, E., Davis, M. H., & Zoefel, B. (2021). Sustained neural rhythms reveal endogenous oscillations supporting speech perception. PLoS Biol, 19(2), e3001142. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pbio.3001142

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) You claim transdiagnostic phenotypes are temporally stable -- since they're relatively new constructs, do we know how stable? In what order?  

      This is an important question. We have added two recent references to support this claim on page 1 and cite these studies in the references on pages 25 and 28:

      “Using factor analysis, temporally stable (see Fox et al., 2023a; Sookud, Martin, Gillan, & Wise, 2024), transdiagnostic phenotypes can be extracted from extensive symptom datasets (Wise, Robinson, & Gillan, 2023).”

      Fox, C. A., McDonogh, A., Donegan, K. R., Teckentrup, V., Crossen, R. J., Hanlon, A. K., … Gillan, C. M. (2024). Reliable, rapid, and remote measurement of metacognitive bias. Scientific Reports, 14(1), 14941. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-024-64900-0

      Sookud, S., Martin, I., Gillan, C., & Wise, T. (2024, September 5). Impaired goal-directed planning in transdiagnostic compulsivity is explained by uncertainty about learned task structure. https://doi.org/10.31234/osf.io/zp6vk

      More specifically, Sookud and colleagues found the intraclass correlation coefficient (ICC) for both factors to be high after a 3- or 12 month period (ICC<sub>AD_3</sub> = 0.87; ICC<sub>AD_12</sub> = 0.87; ICC<sub>CIT_3</sub> = 0.81; ICC<sub>CIT_3</sub>= 0.76; see Tables S41 and S50 in Sookud et al., 2024).

      (2) On hypotheses of the study: 

      I didn't understand the logic behind the hypothesis relating TDx Compulsivity -> Metacognition > Reminder-setting

      It seems that (a) Compulsivity relates to overconfidence which should predict less remindersetting

      Compulsivity has an impaired link between metacognition and action, breaking the B->C link in the mediation described above in (a). What would this then imply about how Compulsivity is related to reminder-setting?

      "In the context of our study, a Metacognitive Control Mechanism would be reflected in a disrupted relationship between confidence levels and their tendency to set reminders."  What exactly does this predict - a lack of a correlation between confidence and remindersetting, specifically in high-compulsive subjects?

      Lastly, there could be a direct link between compulsivity and reminder-usage, independent of any metacognitive influence. We refer to this as the Direct Mechanism  Why though theoretically would this be the case? 

      "We initially hypothesised to find support for the Metacognitive Control Mechanism and that highly compulsive individuals would offload more". 

      The latter part here, "highly compulsive individuals would offload more" is I think the exact opposite prediction of the Metacognitive control mechanism hypothesis (compulsive individuals offload less). How could you possibly have tried to find support, then, for both? 

      Is the hypothesis that compulsivity positively predicts reminder setting the "direct mechanism" - if so, please clarify that, and if not, it should be added as a distinct mechanism, and additionally, the direct mechanism should be specified. 

      There's more delineation of specific hypotheses (8 with caveats) in Methods. 

      "We furthermore also tested this hypothesis but predicted raw confidence (percentage of circles participants predicted they would remember; H6b and H8b respectively)," What is the reference of "this hypothesis" given that right before this sentence two hypotheses are mentioned?  To keep this all organized, it would be good to simply have a table with hypotheses listed clearly. 

      We agree with the reviewer that there is room to improve the clarity of how our hypotheses are presented. The confusion likely arises from the fact that, since we first planned and preregistered our study, several new pieces of work have emerged, which might have led us to question some of our initial hypotheses. We have taken great care to present the hypotheses as they were preregistered, while also considering the current state of the literature and organizing them in a logical flow to make them more digestible for the reader. We have clarified this point on page 4:

      “Back when we preregistered our hypotheses only a limited number of studies about confidence and transdiagnostic CIT were available. This resulted in us hypothesising to find support for the Metacognitive Control Mechanism and that highly compulsive individuals would offload more due to an increased need for checkpoints.”

      The biggest improvement we believe comes from our new Table 1, which we have included in the Methods section in response to the reviewer’s suggestion (pp. 21-22):

      “We preregistered 8 hypotheses (see Table 1), half of which were sanity checks (H1-H4) aimed to establish whether our task would generally lead to the same patterns as previous studies using a similar task (as reviewed in Gilbert et al., 2023).”

      We furthermore foreshadowed more explicitly how we would test the Metacognitive Control Mechanism in the Introduction section on page 4, as requested by the reviewer:

      “In the context of our study, a Metacognitive Control Mechanism would be reflected in a disrupted relationship between confidence levels and their tendency to set reminders (i.e., the interaction between the bias to be over- or underconfident and transdiagnostic CIT in a regression model predicting a bias to set reminders).”

      To avoid any confusion regarding the term ‘direct’ in the ‘Direct Mechanism’, we now explicitly clarify on page 4 that it refers to any non-metacognitive influences. Additionally, we had already emphasized in the Discussion section the need for future studies to specify these influences more directly.

      Page 4: “We refer to this as the Direct Mechanism and it constitutes any possible influences that affect reminder setting in highly-compulsive CIT participants outside of metacognitive mechanisms, such as perfectionism and the wish to control the task without external aids.”

      The reviewer was correct in pointing out that, in the Methods section, we incorrectly referred to ‘this hypothesis’ when we actually meant both of the previously mentioned hypotheses. We have corrected this on page 23:

      “We furthermore also tested these hypotheses but predicted raw confidence (percentage of circles participants predicted they would remember; H6b and H8b respectively), as well as extending the main model with the scores from the cognitive ability test (ICAR5) as an additional covariate (H6c and H8c respectively).”

      Finally, upon revisiting our Results section, we noticed that we had not made it sufficiently clear that hypothesis H6a was preregistered as non-directional. We have now clarified this on page 9:

      “We predicted that the metacognitive bias would correlate negatively with AD (Hypothesis 8a; more anxious-depressed individuals tend to be underconfident). For CIT, we preregistered a non-directional, significant link with metacognitive bias (Hypothesis H6a). We found support for both hypotheses, both for AD, β = -0.22, SE = 0.04, t = -5.00, p < 0.001, as well as CIT, β = 0.15, SE = 0.05, t = 3.30, p = 0.001, controlling for age, gender, and educational attainment (Figure 3; see also Table S1). Note that for CIT this effect was positive, more compulsive individuals tend to be overconfident.”

      (3) You say special circles are red, blue, or pink. Then, in the figure, the colors are cyan, orange, and magenta. These should be homogenized. 

      Apologies, this was not clear on our screens. We have corrected this now but used the labels “blue”, “orange” and “magenta” as our shade of blue is much darker than cyan:

      Page 16: “These circles flashed in a colour (blue, orange, or magenta) when they first appear on screen before fading to yellow.”

      (4) The task is not clearly described with respect to forced choice. From my understanding, "forced choice" was implicitly delivered by a "computer choosing for them". You should indicate in the graphic that this is what forced choice means in the graphic and description more clearly. 

      This is an excellent point. On pages 17 and 18 we now include a slightly changed Figure 6, which includes improved table row names and cell shading to indicate the choice people gave. Hopefully this clarifies what “forced choice” means.

      (5) If I have point (4) right, then a potential issue arises in your design. Namely, if a participant has a bias to use or not use reminders, they will experience more or less prediction errors during their forced choice. This kind of prediction error could introduce different mood impacts on subsequent performance, altering their accuracy. This will have an asymmetric effect on the different forced phases (ie forced reminders or not). For this reason, I think it would be worthwhile to run a version of the experiment, if feasible, where you simply remove choice prior to revealing the condition. For example, have a block of choices where people can "see how well you do with reminders" -- this removes expectation and PE effects. 

      [See also this point from the weaknesses listed in the public comments:]

      Although I think this design and study are very helpful for the field, I felt that a feature of the design might reduce the tasks's sensitivity to measuring dispositional tendencies to engage cognitive offloading. In particular, the design introduces prediction errors, that could induce learning and interfere with natural tendencies to deploy reminder-setting behavior. These PEs comprise whether a given selected strategy will be or not be allowed to be engaged. We know individuals with compulsivity can learn even when instructed not to learn (e.g., Sharp, Dolan, and Eldar, 2021, Psychological Medicine), and that more generally, they have trouble with structure knowledge (eg Seow et al; Fradkin et al), and thus might be sensitive to these PEs. Thus, a dispositional tendency to set reminders might be differentially impacted for those with compulsivity after an NPE, where they want to set a reminder, but aren't allowed to. After such an NPE, they may avoid more so the tendency to set reminders. Those with compulsivity likely have superstitious beliefs about how checking behaviors leads to a resolution of catastrophes, which might in part originate from inferring structure in the presence of noise or from purely irrelevant sources of information for a given decision problem. 

      It would be good to know if such learning effects exist if they're modulated by PE (you can imagine PEs are higher if you are more incentivized - e.g., 9 points as opposed to only 3 points - to use reminders, and you are told you cannot use them), and if this learning effect confounds the relationship between compulsivity and reminder-setting.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for providing this interesting perspective on our task. If we understand correctly, the situation most at risk for such effects occurs when participants choose to use a reminder. Not receiving a reminder in the following trial can be seen as a negative prediction error (PE), whereas receiving one would represent the control condition (zero PE). Therefore, we focused on these two conditions in our analysis.

      We indeed found that participants had a slightly higher tendency to choose reminders again after trials where they successfully requested them compared to after trials where they were not allowed reminders (difference = 4.4%). This effect was statistically significant, t(465) = 2.3, p = 0.024. However, it is important to note that other studies from our lab have reported a general, non-specific response ‘stickiness,’ where participants often simply repeat the same strategy in the next trial (Scarampi & Gilbert, 2020), which could have contributed to this pattern.

      When we used CIT to predict this effect in a simple linear regression model, we did not find a significant effect (β = -0.05, SE = 0.05, t = -1.13, p = 0.26).

      To further investigate this and potentially uncover an effect masked by the influence of the points participants could win in a given trial, we re-ran the model using a logistic mixed-effects regression model. This model predicted the upcoming trial’s choice (reminder or no reminder) from the presence of a negative prediction error in the current trial (dummy variable), the ztransformed number of points on offer, and the z-transformed CIT score (between-subject covariate), as well as the interaction of CIT and negative PE. In this model, we replicated the previous ‘stickiness’ effect, with a negative influence of a negative PE on the upcoming choice, β = -0.24, SE = 0.07, z = -3.44, p < 0.001. In other words, when a negative PE was encountered in the current trial, participants were less likely to choose reminders in the next trial. Additionally, there was a significant negative influence of points offered on the upcoming choice, β = -0.28, SE = 0.03, z = -8.82, p < 0.001. While this might seem counterintuitive, it could be due to a contrast effect: after being offered high rewards with reminders, participants might be deterred from using the reminder strategy in consecutive trials where lower rewards are likely to be offered, simply due to the bounded reward scale. CIT showed a small negative effect on upcoming reminder choice, β = -0.06, SE = 0.04, z = -1.69, p = 0.09, indicating that participants scoring higher on the CIT factor tended to be less likely to choose reminders, thus replicating one of the central findings of our study. It is unclear why this effect was not statistically significant, but this is likely due to the limited data on which the model was based (see below). Finally, and most importantly, the interaction between the current trial’s condition (negative PE or zero PE) and CIT was not significant, contrary to the reviewer’s hypothesis, β = 0.04, SE = 0.07, z = 0.57, p = 0.57.

      It should also be noted that this exploratory analysis is based on a limited number of data points: on average, participants had 2.5 trials (min = 0; max = 4) with a negative PE and 6.7 trials (min = 0; max = 12) with zero PE. There were more zero PE trials simply because to maximise the number of trials included in this analysis, each participant’s 8 choice-only trials were included and on those trials the participant always got what they requested (the trial then ended prematurely). Due to the fact that not all cells in the analysed design were filled, only 466 out of 600 participants could be included in the analysis. This may have caused the fit of the mixed model to be singular.

      In summary, given that these results are based on a limited number of data points, some models did not fit without issues, and no evidence was found to support the hypotheses, we suggest not including this exploratory analysis in the manuscript. However, if we have misunderstood the reviewer and should conduct a different analysis, we are happy to reconsider.

      Unfortunately, conducting an additional study without the forced-choice element is not feasible, as this would create imbalances in trial numbers for the design. The advantage of the current, condensed task is the result of several careful pilot studies that have optimized the task’s psychometric properties.

      Scarampi, C., & Gilbert, S. J. (2020). The effect of recent reminder setting on subsequent strategy and performance in a prospective memory task. Memory, 28(5), 677–691. https://doi.org/10.1080/09658211.2020.1764974

      (6) One can imagine that a process goes on in this task where a person must estimate their own efficacy in each condition. Thus, individuals with more forced-choice experience prior to choosing for themselves might have more informed choice. Presumably, this is handled by your large N and randomization, but could be worth looking into. 

      We would like to thank the reviewer for pointing this out, as we had not previously considered this aspect of our task. However, we believe it is not the experience with forced trials per se, but rather the frequency with which participants experience both strategies (reminder vs. no reminder), that could influence their ability to make more informed choices. To address this, we calculated the proportion of reminder trials during the first half of the task (excluding choiceonly trials, where the reminder strategy was not actually experienced). We hypothesized that the absolute distance of this ‘informedness’ parameter should correlate positively with the absolute reminder bias at the end of the task, with participants who experienced both conditions equally by the midpoint of the task being less biased towards or away from reminders. However, this was not the case, r = 0.05, p = 0.21.

      Given the lengthy and complex nature of our preregistered analysis, we prefer not to include this exploratory analysis in the manuscript.

      (7) Is the Actual indifference calculated from all choices? I believe so, given they don't know only till after their choice whether it's forced or not, but good to make this clear. 

      Indeed, we use all available choice data to calculate the AIP. We now make this clear in two places in the main text:

      Page 5: “The ‘actual indifference point’ was the point at which they were actually indifferent, based on all of their decisions.”

      Page 6: “Please note that all choices were used to calculate the AIP, as participants only found out whether or not they would use a reminder after the decision was made.”

      (8) Related to 7, I believe this implies that the objective and actual indifference points are not entirely independent, given the latter contains the former. 

      Yes, the OIP and AIP were indeed calculated in part from events that happened within the same trials. However, since these events are non-overlapping (e.g., the choice from trial 6 contributes to the AIP but the accuracy measured several seconds later from that trial contributes to the OIP) and since our design dictates whether or not reminders can be used on those trials in question (by randomly assigning them to the forced internal/forced external condition) this could not induce circularity.

      (9) I thought perfectionism might be a trait that could explain findings and it was nice to see convergence in thinking once I reached the conclusion. Along these lines, I was thinking that perhaps perfectionism has a curvilinear relationship with compulsivity (this is an intuition I'm not sure if it's backed up empirically). If it's really perfectionism, do you see that, at the extreme end of compulsivity, there's more reminder-setting? Ie did you try to model this relationship using a nonlinear function? You might clues simply by visual inspection. 

      It is interesting to note that the reviewer reached a similar interpretation of our results. We considered this question during our analysis and conducted an additional exploratory analysis to examine how CIT quantile relates to reminder bias (see Author response image 1). Each circle reflects a participant. As shown, no clear nonlinearities are evident, which challenges this interpretation. We believe that adding this to the already lengthy manuscript may not be necessary, but we are of course happy to reconsider if Reviewer 1 disagrees.

      Author response image 1.

      (10) [From the weaknesses listed in the public comments.] A more subtle point, I think this study can be more said to be an exploration than a deductive test of a particular model -> hypothesis > experiment. Typically, when we test a hypothesis, we contrast it with competing models. Here, the tests were two-sided because multiple models, with mutually exclusive predictions (over-use or under-use of reminders) were tested. Moreover, it's unclear exactly how to make sense of what is called the direct mechanism, which is supported by partial (as opposed to complete) mediation.

      The reviewer’s observation is accurate; some aspects of our study did take on a more exploratory nature, despite having preregistered hypotheses. This was partly due to the novelty of our research questions. We appreciate this feedback and will use it to refine our approach in future studies, aiming for more deductive testing.

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) Regarding the lack of relationship between AD and reminder setting, this result is in line with a recent study by Mohr et al (2023:https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/vc7ye) investigating relationships between the same transdiagnostic symptom dimensions, confidence bias and another confidence-related behaviour: information seeking. Despite showing trial-by-trial under-confidence on a perceptual decision task, participants high in AD did not seek information any more than low AD participants. Hence, the under-confidence in AD had no knock-on effect on downstream information-seeking behaviour. I think it is interesting that converging evidence from your study and the Moher et al (2023) study suggest that high AD participants do not use the opportunity to increase their confidence (i.e., through reminder setting or information seeking). This may be because they do not believe that doing so will be effective or because they lack the motivation (i.e., through anhedonia and/or apathy) to do so. 

      This is indeed an interesting parallel and we would like to thank the reviewer for pointing out this recently published study, which we unfortunately have missed. We included it in the Discussion section, extending our sub-section on the missing downstream effects of the AD factor, as well as listing it in the references on page 27.

      Page 14: “Our findings align with those reported in a recent study by Mohr, Ince, and Benwell (2024). The authors observed that while high-AD participants were underconfident in a perceptual task, this underconfidence did not lead to increased information-seeking behaviour. Future research should explore whether this is due to their pessimism regarding the effectiveness of confidence-modulated strategies (i.e., setting reminders or seeking information) or whether it stems from apathy. Another possibility is that the relevant downstream effects of anxiety were not measured in our study and instead may lie in reminder-checking behaviours.”

      Mohr, G., Ince, R.A.A. & Benwell, C.S.Y. Information search under uncertainty across transdiagnostic psychopathology and healthy ageing. Transl Psychiatry 14, 353 (2024). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41398-024-03065-w

      (2) Fox et al 2023 are cited twice at the same point in the second paragraph of the intro. Not sure if this is a typo or if these are two separate studies? 

      Those are indeed two different studies and should have been formatted as such. We have corrected this mistake in the following places and furthermore also corrected one of the references as the study has recently been published:

      P. 2 (top): “Previous research links transdiagnostic compulsivity to impairments in metacognition, defined as thinking about one’s own thoughts, encompassing a broad spectrum of self-reflective signals, such as feelings of confidence (e.g., Rouault, Seow, Gillan & Fleming, 2018; Seow & Gillan, 2020; Benwell, Mohr, Wallberg, Kouadio, & Ince, 2022; Fox et al., 2023a;

      Fox et al., 2023b; Hoven, Luigjes, Denys, Rouault, van Holst, 2023a).”

      P. 2 (bottom): “More specifically, individuals characterized by transdiagnostic compulsivity have been consistently found to exhibit overconfidence (Rouault, Seow, Gillan & Fleming, 2018; Seow & Gillan, 2020; Benwell, Mohr, Wallberg, Kouadio, & Ince, 2022; Fox et al., 2023a; Fox et al., 2023b; Hoven et al., 2023a).”

      P. 4: “Prior evidence exists for overconfidence in compulsivity (Rouault et al., 2018; Seow & Gillan, 2020; Benwell et al., 2022; Fox et al., 2023a; Fox et al., 2023b; Hoven et al., 2023a), which would therefore result in fewer reminders.”

      P. 23: “Though we did not preregister a direction for this effect, in the light of recent findings it has now become clear that compulsivity would most likely be linked to overconfidence (Rouault et al., 2018; Seow & Gillan, 2020; Benwell et al., 2022; Fox et al., 2023a; Fox et al., 2023b; Hoven et al., 2023a).”

      P. 24: “Fox, C. A., Lee, C. T., Hanlon, A. K., Seow, T. X. F., Lynch, K., Harty, S., … Gillan, C. M. (2023a). An observational treatment study of metacognition in anxious-depression. ELife, 12, 1–17. https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.87193”

      P. 24: “Fox, C. A., McDonogh, A., Donegan, K. R., Teckentrup, V., Crossen, R. J., Hanlon, A. K., … Gillan, C. M. (2024). Reliable, rapid, and remote measurement of metacognitive bias. Scientific Reports, 14(1), 14941. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-024-64900-0”

      (3) Typo in the Figure 1 caption: "The preregistered exclusion criteria for the for the accuracies with....".  

      Thank you so much for pointing this out. We haved changed the sentence in the caption of Figure 1 to read “The preregistered exclusion criteria for the accuracies with or without reminder are indicated as horizontal dotted lines (10% and 70% respectively).”

      Typo in the Figure 5 caption: "Standardised regression coefficients are given for each pat".

      Thank you so much for pointing this out to us, we have corrected the typo and the sentence in the caption of Figure 5 now reads “Standardised regression coefficients are given for each path.”

      [From the weaknesses listed in the public comments.] Participants only performed a single task so it remains unclear if the observed effects would generalise to reminder-setting in other cognitive domains.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concern regarding the use of a single cognitive task in our study, which is indeed a common limitation in many cognitive neuroscience studies. The cognitive factors underlying offloading decisions are still under active debate. Notably, a previous study found that intention fulfilment in an earlier version of our task correlates with real-world behaviour, lending validity to our paradigm by linking it to realistic outcomes (Gilbert, 2015). Additionally, recent unpublished work (Grinschgl, 2024) has shown a correlation between offloading across two lab tasks, though a null effect was reported in another study with a smaller sample size by the same team (Meyerhoff et al., 2021), likely due to insufficient power. In summary, we agree that future research should replicate these findings with alternative tasks to enhance robustness.

      Gilbert, S. J. (2015). Strategic offloading of delayed intentions into the external environment. Quarterly Journal of Experimental Psychology, 68(5), 971–992. https://doi.org/10.1080/17470218.2014.972963

      Grinschgl, S. (2024). Cognitive Offloading in the lab and in daily life. 2nd Cognitive Offloading Meeting. [Talk]

      Meyerhoff, H. S., Grinschgl, S., Papenmeier, F., & Gilbert, S. J. (2021). Individual differences in cognitive offloading: a comparison of intention offloading, pattern copy, and short-term memory capacity. Cognitive Research: Principles and Implications, 6(1), 34. https://doi.org/10.1186/s41235-021-00298-x

      (6) [From the weaknesses listed in the public comments.] The sample consisted of participants recruited from the general population. Future studies should investigate whether the effects observed extend to individuals with the highest levels of symptoms (including clinical samples). 

      We agree that transdiagnostic research should ideally include clinical samples to determine, for instance, whether the subclinical variation commonly studied in transdiagnostic work differs qualitatively from clinical presentations. However, this approach poses challenges, as transdiagnostic studies typically require large sample sizes, and recruiting clinical participants can be more difficult. With advancements in online sampling platforms, such as Prolific, achieving better availability and targeting may make this more feasible in the future. We intend to monitor these developments closely and contribute to such studies whenever possible.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Cell metabolism exhibits a well-known behavior in fast-growing cells, which employ seemingly wasteful fermentation to generate energy even in the presence of sufficient environmental oxygen. This phenomenon is known as Overflow Metabolism or the Warburg effect in cancer. It is present in a wide range of organisms, from bacteria and fungi to mammalian cells.

      In this work, starting with a metabolic network for Escherichia coli based on sets of carbon sources, and using a corresponding coarse-grained model, the author applies some well-based approximations from the literature and algebraic manipulations. These are used to successfully explain the origins of Overflow Metabolism, both qualitatively and quantitatively, by comparing the results with E. coli experimental data.

      By modeling the proteome energy efficiencies for respiration and fermentation, the study shows that these parameters are dependent on the carbon source quality constants K_i (p.115 and 116). It is demonstrated that as the environment becomes richer, the optimal solution for proteome energy efficiency shifts from respiration to fermentation. This shift occurs at a critical parameter value K_A(C).

      This counterintuitive result qualitatively explains Overflow Metabolism.

      Quantitative agreement is achieved through the analysis of the heterogeneity of the metabolic status within a cell population. By introducing heterogeneity, the critical growth rate is assumed to follow a Gaussian distribution over the cell population, resulting in accordance with experimental data for E. coli. Overflow metabolism is explained by considering optimal protein allocation and cell heterogeneity.

      The obtained model is extensively tested through perturbations: 1) Introduction of overexpression of useless proteins; 2) Studying energy dissipation; 3) Analysis of the impact of translation inhibition with different sub-lethal doses of chloramphenicol on Escherichia coli; 4) Alteration of nutrient categories of carbon sources using pyruvate. All model perturbation results are corroborated by E. coli experimental results.

      We appreciate the reviewer's highly positive comments and the accurate summary of our manuscript.

      Strengths:

      In this work, the author employs modeling methods typical of Physics to address a problem in Biology, standing at the interface between these two scientific fields. This interdisciplinary approach proves to be highly fruitful and should be further explored in the literature. The use of Escherichia coli as an example ensures that all hypotheses and approximations in this study are well-founded in the literature. Examples include the approximation for the Michaelis-Menten equation (line 82), Eq. S1, proteome partition in Appendix 1.1 (lines 68-69), and a stable nutrient environment in Appendix 1.1 (lines 83-84). The section "Testing the model through perturbation" heavily relies on bacterial data. The construction of the model and its agreement with experimental data are convincingly presented.

      We appreciate the reviewer's highly positive comments. We have incorporated many of the reviewer's insightful suggestions and added citations in the appropriate contexts, which have significantly improved our manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      In Section Appendix 6.4, the author explores the generalization of results from bacteria to cancer cells, adapting the metabolic network and coarse-grained model accordingly. It is argued that as a consequence, all subsequent steps become immediately valid. However, I remain unconvinced, considering the numerous approximations used to derive the equations, which the literature demonstrates to be valid primarily for bacteria. A more detailed discussion about this generalization is recommended. Additionally, it is crucial to note that the experimental validation of model perturbations heavily relies on E. coli data.

      We appreciate the reviewer's insightful suggestions. We apologize for not clearly illustrating the generalization of results from bacteria to cancer cells in the previous version of our manuscript. Indeed, in our earlier version, there was no experimental validation of model results related to cancer cells.

      Following the reviewer’s suggestions, we have now added Fig. 5 and Appendix-fig. 5, fully expanded the previous Appendix 6.4 into Appendix 9 in our current version, and added a new section entitled “Explanation of the Crabtree effect in yeast and the Warburg effect in cancer cells” in our main text to provide a detailed discussion of the generalization from bacteria to yeast and cancer cells. Through the derivations shown in Appendix 9 (Eqs. S180-S189), we arrived at Eq. 6 (or Eq. S190 in Appendix 9) to facilitate the comparison of our model results with experimental data in yeast and cancer cells. This comparison is presented in Fig. 5, where we demonstrate that our model can quantitatively explain the data for the Crabtree effect in yeast and the Warburg effect in cancer cells (related experimental data references: Shen et al., Nature Chemical Biology 20, 1123–1132 (2024); Bartman et al., Nature 614, 349-357 (2023)). These additions have significantly strengthened our manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary

      This paper has three parts. The first part applied a coarse-grained model with proteome partition to calculate cell growth under respiration and fermentation modes. The second part considered single-cell variability and performed population average to acquire an ensemble metabolic profile for acetate fermentation. The third part used model and simulation to compare experimental data in literature and obtained substantial consistency.

      We thank the reviewer for the accurate summary and positive comments on our manuscript.

      Strengths and major contributions

      (i) The coarse-grained model considered specific metabolite groups and their interrelations and acquired an analytical solution for this scenario. The "resolution" of this model is in between the Flux Balanced Analysis/whole-cell simulation and proteome partition analysis.

      (ii) The author considered single-cell level metabolic heterogeneity and calculated the ensemble average with explicit calculation. The results are consistent with known fermentation and growth phenomena qualitatively and can be quantitatively compared to experimental results.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s highly positive comments.

      Weaknesses

      (i) If I am reading this paper correctly, the author's model predicts binary (or "digital") outcomes of single-cell metabolism, that is, after growth rate optimization, each cell will adopt either "respiration mode" or "fermentation mode" (as illustrated in Figure Appendix - Figure 1 C, D). Due to variability enzyme activity k_i^{cat} and critical growth rate λ_C, each cell under the same nutrient condition could have either respiration or fermentation, but the choice is binary.

      The binary choice at the single-cell level is inconsistent with our current understanding of metabolism. If a cell only uses fermentation mode (as shown in Appendix - Figure 1C), it could generate enough energy but not be able to have enough metabolic fluxes to feed into the TCA cycle. That is, under pure fermentation mode, the cell cannot expand the pool of TCA cycle metabolites and hence cannot grow.

      This caveat also appears in the model in Appendix (S25) that assumes J_E = r_E*J_{BM} where r_E is a constant. From my understanding, r_E can be different between respiration and fermentation modes (at least for real cells) and hence it is inappropriate to conclude that cells using fermentation, which generates enough energy, can also generate a balanced biomass.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this question. Indeed, regarding energy biogenesis between respiration and fermentation, our model predicts binary outcomes at the single-cell level. However, this outcome does not hinder cell growth, as there are three independent possible fates for the carbon source (e.g., glucose) in metabolism: fermentation, respiration for energy biogenesis, and biomass generation. Each fate is associated with a distinct fraction of the proteome, with no overlap between them (see Appendix-figs. 1 and 5). Consequently, in a purely fermentative mode, a cell can still use the proteome dedicated to the biomass generation pathway to produce biomass precursors via the TCA cycle.

      The classification of the carbon source’s fates into three independent pathways was initially introduced by Chen and Nielsen (Chen and Nielsen, PNAS 116, 17592-17597 (2019)). We apologize for the oversight in not citing their paper in this context in the previous version of our manuscript (although it was cited elsewhere). We have now included the citation in all appropriate places.

      To illustrate this issue more clearly, we explicitly present the proteome allocation results for optimal growth in a fermentation mode below, where the proteome efficiency (i.e., the proteome energy efficiency in our previous version) in fermentation is higher than in respiration (i.e., ). We use the model shown in Fig. 1B as an example, with the relevant equations being Eqs. S26 and S28 in Appendix 2.1. By substituting Eq. S28 into Eq. S26, we arrive at Eq. 3 (or Eq. S29 in Appendix 2.1), which we restate here as Eq. R1:

      For a given nutrient condition, i.e., for a specific value of κ<sub>A</sub> at the single-cell level, the values of are determined (see Eqs. S20, S27, S31 and S32), while  ϕ and φ<sub>max</sub> are constants (see Eq. S33 and Appendix 1.1). Therefore, if , then , since all coefficients are positive (i.e., ) and takes non-negative values. Hence, the solution for optimal growth is (see Eqs. S35-S36 in Appendix 2.2):

      Here, the result signifies a pure fermentation mode with no respiration flux for energy biogenesis. Then, by combining Eq. R2 with Eqs. S28 and S30 from Appendix 2.1, we obtain the optimal proteome allocation results for this case:

      where , while κ<sub>A</sub> and take given values (see Eqs. S20 and S27). In Eq. R3, φ<sub>3</sub> corresponds to the fraction of the proteome devoted to carrying the carbon flux from Acetyl-CoA (the entry point of Pool b, see Fig. 1B and Appendix 1.2) to α-Ketoglutarate (the entry point of Pool c), with all of these being enzymes within the TCA cycle. The optimal growth solution is , which demonstrates that in a pure fermentation mode, the optimal growth condition includes the presence of enzymes within the TCA cycle capable of carrying the flux required for biomass generation.

      Regarding Eq. S25, J<sub>E</sub> represents the energy demand for cell proliferation, expressed as the stoichiometric energy flux in ATP. Although the influx of carbon sources (e.g., glucose) varies significantly between fermentation and respiration modes, J<sub>BM</sub> and J<sub>E</sub>  are the biomass and energy fluxes used to build cells, respectively. In bacteria, whether in fermentation or respiration mode, the proportion of maintenance energy used for protein degradation is roughly negligible (see Locasale and Cantley, BMC Biol 8, 88 (2010)). Consequently, the energy demand represented by J_E scales approximately linearly with the biomass production rate _J<sub>BM</sub> (related experimental data reference: Ebenhöh et al., Life 14, 247 (2024)), regardless of the energy biogenesis mode. Therefore, _r_E can be regarded as roughly constant for bacteria. However, in eukaryotic cells such as yeast and mammalian cells, the proportion of maintenance energy is much more significant (see Locasale and Cantley, BMC Biol 8, 88 (2010)). Therefore, we have explicitly considered the contribution of maintenance energy in these cases and have extended the previous Appendix 6.4 into Appendix 9 in the current version.

      (ii) The minor weakness of this model is that it assumes a priori that each cell chooses its metabolic strategy based on energy efficiency. This is an interesting assumption but there is no known biochemical pathway that directly executes this mechanism. In evolution, growth rate is more frequently considered for metabolic optimization. In Flux Balanced Analysis, one could have multiple objective functions including biomass synthesis, energy generation, entropy production, etc. Therefore, the author would need to justify this assumption and propose a reasonable biochemical mechanism for cells to sense and regulate their energy efficiency.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this question and apologize for not explaining this point clearly enough in the previous version of our manuscript. Just as the reviewer mentioned, growth rate should be considered for metabolic optimization under the selection pressure of the evolutionary process. In fact, in our model, the sole optimization objective is exactly the cell growth rate. The determination of whether to use fermentation or respiration based on proteome efficiency (i.e., the proteome energy efficiency in our previous version) is not an a priori assumption in our model; rather, it is a natural consequence of growth rate optimization, as we detail below. 

      For a given nutrient condition with a determined value of κ<sub>A</sub> , as we have explained in the aforementioned responses, the constraint on the fluxes is summarized in Eq. 3 and is restated as Eq. R1. Mathematically, we can obtain the solution for the optimal growth strategy by combining Eq. R1 (i.e., Eq. 3) with the optimization on cell growth rate λ, and the solution can be obtained as follows: If the proteome efficiency in fermentation is larger than that in respiration, i.e., , then from Eq. R1, we obtain , since the values of ε<sub>r</sub> , ε<sub>f </sub>, Ψ, ϕ and φ<sub>max</sub> are all fixed for a given κ_A_ , with ε<sub>r</sub> , ε<sub>f </sub>, Ψ, ϕ, φ<sub>max</sub> > 0 . Hence, (since ), and note that . Therefore is the solution for optimal growth, where the growth rate can take the maximum value of . Similarly, for the case where the proteome efficiency in respiration is larger than that in fermentation (i.e ), is the solution for optimal growth. With this analysis, we have demonstrated that the choice between fermentation and respiration based on proteome efficiency is a natural consequence of growth rate optimization.

      We have now revised the related content in our manuscript to clarify this point.

      My feeling is that the mathematical structure of this model could be correct, but the single-cell interpretation for the ensemble averaging has issues. Each cell could potentially adopt partial respiration and partial fermentation at the same time and have temporal variability in its metabolic mode as well. With the modification of the optimization scheme, the author could have a revised model that avoids the caveat mentioned above.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this question. In fact, in the above two responses, we have addressed the issues raised here, clarifying that the binary mode between respiration and fermentation does not hinder cell growth and that the sole optimization objective is the cell growth rate, as the reviewer suggested. Regarding temporal variability, due to factors such as cell cycle stages and the intrinsic noise arising from stochastic processes, temporal variability in the fermentation or respiration mode is indeed likely. However, at any given moment at the single-cell level, a binary choice between fermentation and respiration is what our model predicts for the optimal growth strategy. 

      Discussion and impact for the field

      Proteome partition models and Flux Balanced Analysis are both commonly used mathematical models that emphasize different parts of cellular physiology. This paper has ingredients for both, and I expect after revision it will bridge our understanding of the whole cell.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s very positive comments. We have followed many of the good suggestions raised by the reviewer, and our revised manuscript is much improved as a result.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In the manuscript "Overflow metabolism originates from growth optimization and cell heterogeneity" the author Xin Wang investigates the hypothesis that the transition into overflow metabolism at large growth rates actually results from an inhomogeneous cell population, in which every individual cell either performs respiration or fermentation.

      We thank the reviewer for carefully reading our manuscript and the accurate summary.

      Weaknesses:

      The paper has several major flaws. First, and most importantly, it repeatedly and wrongly claims that the origins of overflow metabolism are not known. The paper is written as if it is the first to study overflow metabolism and provide a sound explanation for the experimental observations. This is obviously not true and the author actually cites many papers in which explanations of overflow metabolism are suggested (see e.g. Basan et al. 2015, which even has the title "Overflow metabolism in E. coli results from efficient proteome allocation"). The paper should be rewritten in a more modest and scientific style, not attempting to make claims of novelty that are not supported. In fact, all hypotheses in this paper are old. Also the possiblility that cell heterogeneity explains the observed 'smooth' transition into overflow metabolism has been extensively investigated previously (see de Groot et al. 2023, PNAS, "Effective bet-hedging through growth rate dependent stability") and the random drawing of kcat-values is an established technique (Beg et al., 2007, PNAS, "Intracellular crowding defines the mode and sequence of substrate uptake by Escherichia coli and constrains its metabolic activity"). Thus, in terms of novelty, this paper is very limited. It reinvents the wheel and it is written as if decades of literature debating overflow metabolism did not exist.

      We thank the reviewer for both the critical and constructive comments. Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have revised our manuscript to adopt a more modest style. However, we respectfully disagree with the criticism regarding the novelty of our study, as detailed below.

      First, while many explanations for overflow metabolism have been proposed, we have cited these in both the previous and current versions of our manuscript. We apologize for not emphasizing the distinctions between these previous explanations and our study in the main text of our earlier version, though we did provide details in Appendix 6.3. In fact, most of these explanations (e.g., Basan et al., Nature 528, 99-104 (2015); Chen and Nielsen, PNAS 116, 17592-17597 (2019); Majewski and Domach, Biotechnol. Bioeng. 35, 732-738 (1990); Niebel et al., Nat. Metab. 1, 125-132 (2019); Shlomi et al., PLoS Comput. Biol. 7, e1002018 (2011); Varma and Palsson, Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 60, 3724-3731 (1994); Vazquez et al., BMC Syst. Biol. 4, 58 (2010); Vazquez and Oltvai, Sci. Rep. 6, 31007 (2016); Zhuang et al., Mol. Syst. Biol. 7, 500 (2011)) heavily rely on the assumption that cells optimize their growth rate for a given rate of carbon influx under each nutrient condition (or certain equivalents) to explain the growth rate dependence of fermentation flux. However, this assumption—that cell growth rate is optimized for a given rate of carbon influx—is questionable, as the given factors in a nutrient condition are the identity and concentration of the carbon source, rather than the carbon influx itself.

      Consequently, in our model, we purely optimize cell growth rate without imposing a special constraint on carbon influx. Our assumption that the given factors in a nutrient condition are the identity and concentration of the carbon source aligns with the studies by Molenaar et al. (Molenaar et al., Mol. Syst. Biol. 5, 323 (2009)), where they specified an identical assumption on page 5 of their Supplementary Information (SI); Scott et al. (Scott et al., Science 330, 1099-1102 (2010)), where the growth rate formula was derived for a culturing condition with a given nutrient quality; and Wang et al. (Wang et al., Nat. Comm. 10, 1279 (2019)), our previous study on microbial growth. Among these three studies, only Molenaar et al. addresses overflow metabolism. However, Molenaar et al. did not consider cell heterogeneity, resulting in their model predictions on the growth rate dependence of fermentation flux being a digital response, which is inconsistent with experimental data.

      Furthermore, prevalent explanations such as those by Basan et al. (Basan et al., Nature 528, 99-104 (2015)) and Chen and Nielsen (Chen and Nielsen, PNAS 116, 17592-17597 (2019)) suggest that overflow metabolism originates from the proteome efficiency in fermentation always being higher than in respiration. However, Shen et al. (Shen et al., Nature Chemical Biology 20, 1123–1132 (2024)) recently discovered that the proteome efficiency measured at the cell population level in respiration is higher than in fermentation for many yeast and cancer cells, despite the presence of fermentation fluxes through aerobic glycolysis. This finding clearly contradicts the studies by Basan et al. (2015) and Chen and Nielsen (2019). 

      Nevertheless, our model may resolve this puzzle by incorporating two important features. First, in our model, the proteome efficiency (i.e., the proteome energy efficiency in our previous version) in respiration is larger than that in fermentation when nutrient quality is low (Eqs. S174-S175 in Appendix 9). Second, and crucially, due to the incorporation of cell heterogeneity in our model, there could be a proportion of cells with higher proteome efficiency in fermentation than in respiration, even when the overall proteome efficiency at the cell population level is higher in respiration than in fermentation. As shown in the newly added Fig. 5A-B, our model results can quantitatively illustrate the experimental data from Shen et al., Nature Chemical Biology 20, 1123–1132 (2024).

      Finally, regarding the criticism of the novelty of our hypothesis: As specified in our main text, cell heterogeneity has been widely reported experimentally in both microbes (e.g., Ackermann, Nat. Rev. Microbiol. 13, 497-508 (2015); Bagamery et al., Curr. Biol. 30, 4563-4578 (2020); Balaban et al., Science 305, 1622-1625 (2004); Nikolic et al., BMC Microbiol. 13, 1-13 (2013); Solopova et al., PNAS 111, 7427-7432 (2014); Wallden et al., Cell 166, 729-739 (2016)) and tumor cells (e.g., Duraj et al., Cells 10, 202 (2021); Hanahan and Weinberg, Cell 164, 681-694 (2011); Hensley et al., Cell 164, 681-694 (2016)). However, to the best of our knowledge, cell heterogeneity has not yet been incorporated into theoretical models for explaining overflow metabolism or the Warburg effect. The reviewer mentioned the study by de Groot et al. (de Groot et al., PNAS 120, e2211091120 (2023)) as studying overflow metabolism similarly to our work. We have carefully read this paper, including the main text and SI, and found that it is not directly relevant to either overflow metabolism or the Warburg effect. Instead, their model extends the work of Kussell and Leibler (Kussell and Leibler, Science 309, 2075-2078 (2005)), focusing on bet-hedging strategies of microbes in changing environments.

      Regarding the criticism that random drawing of kcat-values is an established technique (Beg et al., PNAS 104, 12663-12668 (2007)), we need to stress that the distribution noise on kcat-values considered in our model is fundamentally different from that in Beg et al. In Beg et al., their model involved 876 reactions (see Dataset 1 in Beg et al.), of which only 109 had associated biochemical experimental data. Thus, their distribution of kcat-values pertains to different enzymes within the same cell. In contrast, we have the mean of the kcat-values from experimental data for each relevant enzymes, with the distribution of kcat-values representing the same enzyme in different cells.           

      Moreover, the manuscript is not clearly written and is hard to understand. Variables are not properly introduced (the M-pools need to be discussed, fluxes (J_E), "energy coefficients" (eta_E), etc. need to be more explicitly explained. What is "flux balance at each intermediate node"? How is the "proteome efficiency" of a pathway defined? The paper continues to speak of energy production. This should be avoided. Energy is conserved (1st law of thermodynamics) and can never be produced. A scientific paper should strive for scientific correctness, including precise choice of words.

      We thank the reviewer for the constructive comments. Following these, we have provided more explicit information and revised our manuscript to enhance readability. In our initially submitted version, the phrase "energy production" was borrowed from Nelson et al. (Nelson et al., Lehninger principles of biochemistry, 2008) and Basan et al. (Basan et al., Nature 528, 99-104 (2015)), and we chose to follow this terminology. We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion and have now revised the wording to use more appropriate expressions.

      The statement that the "energy production rate ... is proportional to the growth rate" is, apart from being incorrect - it should be 'ATP consumption rate' or similar (see above), a non-trivial claim. Why should this be the case? Such statements must be supported by references. The observation that the catabolic power indeed appears to increase linearly with growth rate was made, based on chemostat data for E.coli and yeast, in a recent preprint (Ebenhöh et al, 2023, bioRxiv, "Microbial pathway thermodynamics: structural models unveil anabolic and catabolic processes").

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful suggestions. Following these, we have revised our manuscript and cited the suggested reference (i.e., Ebenhöh et al., Life 14, 247 (2024)).

      All this criticism does not preclude the possibility that cell heterogeneity plays a role in overflow metabolism. However, according to Occam's razor, first the simpler explanations should be explored and refuted before coming up with a more complex solution. Here, it means that the authors first should argue why simpler explanations (e.g. the 'Membrane Real Estate Hypothesis', Szenk et al., 2017, Cell Systems; maximal Gibbs free energy dissipation, Niebel et al., 2019, Nature Metabolism; Saadat et al., 2020, Entropy) are not considered, resp. in what way they are in disagreement with observations, and then provide some evidence of the proposed cell heterogeneity (are there single-cell transcriptomic data supporting the claim?).

      We thank the reviewer for raising these questions and providing valuable insights. Regarding the shortcomings of simpler explanations, as explained above, most proposed explanations (including the references mentioned by the reviewer: Szenk et al., Cell Syst. 5, 95-104 (2017); Niebel et al., Nat. Metab. 1, 125-132 (2019); Saadat et al., Entropy 22, 277 (2020)) rely heavily on the assumption that cells optimize their growth rate for a given rate of carbon influx under each nutrient condition (or its equivalents). However, this assumption is questionable, as the given factors in a nutrient condition are the identities and concentrations of the carbon sources, rather than the carbon influx itself.

      Specifically, Szenk et al. is a perspective paper, and the original “membrane real estate hypothesis” was proposed by Zhuang et al. (Zhuang et al., Mol. Syst. Biol. 7, 500 (2011)). Zhuang et al. specified in Section 7 of their SI that their model’s explanation of the experimental results shown in Fig. 2C of their manuscript relies on the assumption of restrictions on carbon influx. In Niebel et al. (Niebel et al., Nat. Metab. 1, 125-132 (2019)), the Methods section specifies that the glucose uptake rate was considered a given factor for a growth condition. In Saadat et al. (Saadat et al., Entropy 22, 277 (2020)), Appendix A notes that their model results depend on minimizing carbon influx for a given growth rate, which is equivalent to the assumption mentioned above (see Appendix 6.3 in our manuscript for details). 

      Regarding the experimental evidence for our proposed cell heterogeneity, Bagamery et al. (Bagamery et al., Curr. Biol. 30, 4563-4578 (2020)) reported non-genetic heterogeneity in two subpopulations of Saccharomyces cerevisiae cells upon the withdrawal of glucose from exponentially growing cells. This strongly indicates the coexistence of fermentative and respiratory modes of heterogeneity in S. cerevisiae cultured in a glucose medium (refer to Fig. 1E in Bagamery et al.). Nikolic et al. (Nikolic et al., BMC Microbiol. 13, 1-13 (2013)) reported a bimodal distribution in the expression of the acs gene (the transporter for acetate) in an E. coli cell population growing on glucose as the sole carbon source within the region of overflow metabolism (see Fig. 5 in Nikolic et al.), indicating the cell heterogeneity we propose. For cancer cells, Duraj et al. (Duraj et al., Cells 10, 202 (2021)) reported a high level of intra-tumor heterogeneity in glioblastoma using optical microscopy images, where 48%~75% of the cells use fermentation and the remainder use respiration (see Fig. 1C in Duraj et al.), which aligns with the cell heterogeneity picture of aerobic glycolysis predicted by our model.   

      We have now added related content to the discussion section to strengthen our manuscript.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Some minor corrections:

      (1) Adjusted the reference: (García-Contreras et al., 2012)

      (2) Corrected line 255: Removed the duplicate "the genes"

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestions and have implemented each of them to revise our manuscript. The reference in the form of García-Contreras et al., 2012, although somewhat unusual, is actually correct, so we have kept it unchanged.

      General comment to the author:

      Considering that this work exists at the interface between Physics and Biology, where a significant portion of the audience may not be familiar with the mathematical manipulations performed, it would enhance the paper's readability to provide more explicit indications in the text. For example, in line 91, explicitly define phi_A as phi_R; or in line 115, explain the K_i parameter in the text for better readability.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. Following this, we have now provided more explicit information for the definition of mathematical symbols to enhance readability.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The current form of this manuscript is difficult to read for general readers. In addition, the model description in the Appendix can be improved for biophysics readers to keep track of the variables. Here are my suggestions:

      a) In the main text, the author should give the definition of "proteome energy efficiency" explicitly both in English and mathematical formula - since this is the central concept of the paper. The biological interpretation of formula (4) should also be stated.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. Following this, we have now added definitions and biological interpretations to fix these issues.

      b) I feel the basic model of the reaction network in the Appendix could be stated in a more concise way, by emphasizing whether a variable is extensive (exponential growing) or intensive (scale-invariant under exponential growth).

      From my understanding, this work assumes balanced exponential growth and hence there is a balanced biomass vector Y* (a constant unit vector with all components sum to 1) for each cell. The steady-state fluxes {J} are extensive and all have growth rate λ. The proteome partition and relative metabolite fractions are ratios of different components of Y* and hence are intensive.

      The normalized fluxes {J^(n)} (with respect to biomass) are a function of Y* and are all kept as constant ratios with each other. They are also intensive.

      The biomass and energy production are linear combinations of {J} and hence are extensive and follow exponential growth. The biomass and energy efficiency are ratios between flux and proteome biomass, and hence are intensive.

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful suggestion. Following this, we have now added the intensive and extensive information for all relevant variables in the newly added Appendix-table 3.

      c) In the Appendix, the author should have a table or list of important variables, with their definition, units, and physiological values under respiration and fermentation.

      We thank the reviewer for the very useful suggestion. Following this, we have now added Appendix-table 3 (pages 54-57 in the appendices) to illustrate the symbols used throughout our manuscript, as well as the model variables and parameter settings.   

      d) Regarding the single-cell variability, the author ignored recent experimental measurements on single-cell metabolism. This includes variability on ATP, NAD(P)H in E. coli, which will be useful background for the readers, see below.

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25283467/

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29391569/

      We thank the reviewer for the very useful suggestion. We have now cited these relevant studies in our manuscript.  

      e) The choice between 100% respiration and 100% fermentation is based on the optimization of proteome energy efficiency, while the intermediate strategies are not favored in this model. This is similar to a concept in control theory called the bang-bang principle. This can be added to the Discussion.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have reviewed the concept and articles on the bang-bang principle. While the bang-bang principle is indeed relevant to binary choices, it is somewhat distant from the topic of metabolic strategies related to optimal growth. The elementary flux mode (see Müller et al., J. Theor. Biol. 347, 182190 (2014); Wortel et al., FEBS J. 281, 1547-1555 (2014)) is more pertinent to this topic, as it may lead to diauxic microbial growth (another binary metabolic strategy) in microbes grown on a mixture of two carbon sources from Group A (see Wang et al., Nat. Comm. 10, 1279 (2019)). Therefore, we have cited and mentioned only the elementary flux mode (Müller et al., J. Theor. Biol. 347, 182-190 (2014); Wortel et al., FEBS J. 281, 1547-1555 (2014)) in the introduction and discussion sections of our manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This study presents a valuable contribution to cardiac arrhythmia research by demonstrating long noncoding RNA Dachshund homolog 1 (lncDACH1) tunes sodium channel functional expression and affects cardiac action potential conduction and rhythms. Whereas the evidence for functional impact of lncDACH1 expression on cardiac sodium currents and rhythms is convincing, biochemical experiments addressing the mechanism of changes in sodium channel expression and subcellular localization are incomplete.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors show that a long-non coding RNA lncDACH1 inhibits sodium currents in cardiomyocytes by binding to and altering the localization of dystrophin. The authors use a number of methodologies to demonstrate that lncDACH1 binds to dystrophin and disrupts its localization to the membrane, which in turn downregulates NaV1.5 currents. Knockdown of lncDACH1 upregulates NaV1.5 currents. Furthermore, in heart failure, lncDACH1 is shown to be upregulated which suggests that this mechanism may have pathophysiolgoical relevance.

      Strengths:

      (1) This study presents a novel mechanism of Na channel regulation which may be pathophysiologically important.

      (2) The experiments are comprehensive and systematically evaluate the physiological importance of lncDACH1.

      Weaknesses:

      (1). What is indicated by the cytoplasmic level of NaV1.5, a transmembrane protein? The methods do not provide details regarding how this was determined. Do you authors means NaV1.5 retained in various intracellular organelles?

      Thank you for the good suggestion. Our study showed that Nav1.5 was transferred to the cell membrane by the scaffold protein Dystropin in response to the regulation of LncDACH1, but not all Nav1.5 in the cytoplasm was transferred to the cell membrane. Therefore, the cytoplasmic level of Nav1.5 represents the Nav1.5 protein that is not transferred to the cell membrane but stays in the cytoplasm and various organelles within the cytoplasm when Nav1.5 is regulated by LncDACH1

      (2) What is the negative control in Fig. 2b, Fig. 4b, Fig. 6e, Fig. 7c? The maximum current amplitude in these seem quite different. -40 pA/pF in some, -30 pA/pF in others and this value seems to be different than in CMs from WT mice (<-20 pA/pF). Is there an explanation for what causes this variability between experiments and/or increase with transfection of the negative control? This is important since the effect of lncDACH1 is less than 50% reduction and these could fall in the range depending on the amplitude of the negative control.

      Thank you for the insightful comment. The negative control in Fig. 2b, Fig. 4b, Fig. 6e are primary cardiomyocytes transfected with empty plasmids. The negative control in Fig.7c are cardiomyocytes of wild-type mice injected with control virus. When we prepare cells before the patch-clamp experiments, the transfection efficiency of the transfection reagent used in different batches of cells, as well as the different cell sizes, ultimately lead to differences in CMS.

      (3) NaV1.5 staining in Fig. 1E is difficult to visualize and to separate from lncDACH1. Is it possible to pseudocolor differently so that all three channels can be visualized/distinguished more robustly?

      Thank you for the good suggestion. We have re-added color to the original image to distinguish between the three channels.

      Author response image 1.

      (4) The authors use shRNA to knockdown lncDACH1 levels. It would be helpful to have a scrambled ShRNA control.

      Thank you for the insightful comment. The control group we used was actually the scrambled shRNA, but we labeled the control group as NC in the article, maybe this has caused you to misunderstand.

      (5) Is there any measurement on the baseline levels of LncDACH1 in wild-type mice? It seems quite low and yet is a substantial increase in NaV1.5 currents upon knocking down LncDACH1. By comparison, the level of LncDACH1 seems to be massively upregulated in TAC models. Have the authors measured NaV1.5 currents in these cells? Furthermore, does LncDACH1 knockdown evoke a larger increase in NaV1.5 currents?

      Thank you for the insightful comment.

      (1).The baseline protein levels of LncDACH1 in wild-type mice and LncDACH1-CKO mice has been verified in a previously published article(Figure 3).(Hypertension. 2019;74:00-00. DOI: 10.1161/HYPERTENSIONAHA.119.12998.)

      Author response image 2.

      (2). We did not measure the Nav1.5 currents in cardiomyocytes of the TAC model mice in this artical, but in another published paper, we found that the Nav1.5 current in the TAC model mice was remarkably reduced than that in wild-type mice(Figure 4).(Gene Ther. 2023 Feb;30(1-2):142-149. DOI: 10.1038/s41434-022-00348-z)

      Author response image 3.

      This is consistent with our results in this artical, and our results show that LncDACH1 levels are significantly upregulated in the TAC model, then in the LncDACH1-TG group, the Nav1.5 current is significantly reduced after the LncDACH1 upregulation(Figure 3).

      Author response image 4.

      (6) What do error bars denote in all bar graphs, and also in the current voltage relationships?

      Thank you for the good comment. All the error bars represent the mean ± SEM. They represent the fluctuation of all individuals of a set of data based on the average value of this set of data, that is, the dispersion of a set of data.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      This manuscript by Xue et al. describes the effects of a long noncoding RNA, lncDACH1, on the localization of Nav channel expression, the magnitude of INa, and arrhythmia susceptibility in the mouse heart. Because lncDACH1 was previously reported to bind and disrupt membrane expression of dystrophin, which in turn is required for proper Nav1.5 localization, much of the findings are inferred through the lens of dystrophin alterations.

      The results report that cardiomyocyte-specific transgenic overexpression of lncDACH1 reduces INa in isolated cardiomyocytes; measurements in whole heart show a corresponding reduction in conduction velocity and enhanced susceptibility to arrhythmia. The effect on INa was confirmed in isolated WT mouse cardiomyocytes infected with a lncDACH1 adenoviral construct. Importantly, reducing lncDACH1 expression via either a cardiomyocyte-specific knockout or using shRNA had the opposite effect: INa was increased in isolated cells, as was conduction velocity in heart. Experiments were also conducted with a fragment of lnDACH1 identified by its conservation with other mammalian species. Overexpression of this fragment resulted in reduced INa and greater proarrhythmic behavior. Alteration of expression was confirmed by qPCR.

      The mechanism by which lnDACH1 exerts its effects on INa was explored by measuring protein levels from cell fractions and immunofluorescence localization in cells. In general, overexpression was reported to reduce Nav1.5 and dystrophin levels and knockout or knockdown increased them.

      Thank you for summarizing our work and thank you very much for your appreciation on our work.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors report the first evidence of Nav1.5 regulation by a long noncoding RNA, LncRNA-DACH1, and suggest its implication in the reduction in sodium current observed in heart failure. Since no direct interaction is observed between Nav1.5 and the LncRNA, they propose that the regulation is via dystrophin and targeting of Nav1.5 to the plasma membrane.

      Strengths:

      (1) First evidence of Nav1.5 regulation by a long noncoding RNA.

      (2) Implication of LncRNA-DACH1 in heart failure and mechanisms of arrhythmias.

      (3) Demonstration of LncRNA-DACH1 binding to dystrophin.

      (4) Potential rescuing of dystrophin and Nav1.5 strategy.

      Thank you very much for your appreciation on our work.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Main concern is that the authors do not provide evidence of how LncRNA-DACH1 regulates Nav1.5 protein level. The decrease in total Nav1.5 protein by about 50% seems to be the main consequence of the LncRNA on Nav1.5, but no mechanistic information is provided as to how this occurs.

      Thank you for the insightful comment.

      (1) The mechanism of the whole article is as mentioned in the discussion at the end of the article: LncDACH1 binds to dystrophin and thus inhibits membrane trafficking of Nav1.5, Dystrophin is a well-characterized Nav1.5 partner protein. It indirectly interacts with Nav1.5 via syntrophin, which binds with the C-terminus of dystrophin and with the SIV motif on the C-terminus of Nav1.5(Circ Res. 2006;99:407-414. doi: 10.1161/01.RES.0000237466.13252.5e)(Circulation.2014;130:147-160.doi:10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.113.007852).

      And we performed pulldown and RNA immunoprecipitation experiments to verify it (Figure 1).

      Author response image 5.

      2) Then we found that overexpression of lncDACH1 increased the ubiquitination of Nav1.5, which explains the downregulation of total Nav1.5 protein (Online Supplementary Figure 12).

      Author response image 6.

      3). Lastly,we found that lncDACH1 failed to pulldown Nav1.5 and anti-Nav1.5 did not precipitate lncDACH1( Supplementary Fig. 1).

      Author response image 7.

      These data indicated that lncDACH does not interact with Nav1.5 directly. It participates in the regulation of Nav1.5 by binding to dystrophin.Cytoplasmic Nav1.5 that failed to target on plasma membrane may be quickly distinguished and then degraded by these ubiquitination enzymes.

      (2) The fact that the total Nav1.5 protein is reduced by 50% which is similar to the reduction in the membrane reduction questions the main conclusion of the authors implicating dystrophin in the reduced Nav1.5 targeting. The reduction in membrane Nav1.5 could simply be due to the reduction in total protein.

      Thank you for the insightful comment. We do not rule out the possibility that the reduction in membrane Nav1.5 maybe be due to the reduction in total protein, but we don't think this is the main mechanism. Our data indicates that the membrane and total protein levels of Nav1.5 were reduced by 50%. However, the cytoplasmic Nav1.5 increased in the hearts of lncDACH1-TG mice than WT controls rather than reduced like membrane and total protein(Figure 1).

      Author response image 8.

      Therefore, we think the mian mechanism of the whole article is as mentioned in the discussion at the end of the article: LncDACH1 binds to dystrophin and thus inhibits membrane trafficking of Nav1.5.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) In Fig. 6E the error bars are only in one direction for cF-lncDACH1. It seems that this error overlaps for NC and cF-lncDACH1 at several voltages, yet it is marked as statistically significant. Also in Fig. 7C, what statistical test was used? Do the authors account for multiple comparisons?

      Thank you for the insightful comment.

      (1) We have recalculated the two sets of data and confirmed that there are indeed statistically significant between the two sets of data for NC and cF-lncDACH1 at In Fig. 6E, The overlaps in the picture may only be visually apparent.

      (2) The data in Fig. 7C are expressed as mean ± SEM. Statistical analysis was performed using unpaired Student’s t test or One-Way Analysis of Variance (ANOVA) followed by Tukey’s post-hoc analysis.

      (2) line 57, "The Western blot" remove "The"

      Sorry for the mistake. We have corrected it.

      (3) line 61, "The opposite data were collected" It is unclear what is meant by opposite.

      Sorry for the mistake. We have corrected it.

      (4) Lines 137-140. This sentence is complex, I would simplify as two sentences.

      Sorry for the mistake. We have corrected it.

      (5) Line 150, "We firstly validated" should be "we first validated"

      Sorry for the mistake. We have corrected it.

      (6) Line 181, "Consistently, the membrane" Is this statement meant to indicate that the experiments yielded a consistent results or that this statement is consistent with the previous one? In either case, this sentence should be reworded for clarification.

      Sorry for the mistake. We have corrected it.

      (7) Line 223, "In consistent, the ex vivo" I am not sure what In consistent means here.

      Thank you for the good suggestion. We mean that the results of ex vivo is consistent with the results of in vivo. We have corrected it to make it clearer.

      (8) Line 285. "a bunch of studies" could be rephrased as "multiple studies"

      Sorry for the mistake. We have corrected it.

      (9) Line 299 "produced no influence" Do you mean produced no change?

      Thank you for the good suggestion.As you put it,we mean it produced no change.

      (10) Line 325 "is to interact with the molecules" no need for "the molecules

      Sorry for the mistake. We have corrected it.

      (11) lines 332-335. This sentence is very confusing.

      Thank you for the insightful comment. We have corrected it.

      (12) Lines 341-342. It is unnecessary to claim primacy here.

      Thank you for the good suggestion. We have removed this sentence.

      (13) Line 373. "Sodium channel remodeling is commonly occured in" perhaps rephrase as occurs commonly

      Thank you for the insightful comment. We have corrected it.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Critique

      (1) Aside from some issues with presentation noted below, these data provide convincing evidence of a link between lncDACH1 and Na channel function. The identification of a lncDACH1 segment conserved among mammalian species is compelling. The observation that lncDACH1 is increased in a heart failure model and provides a plausible hypothesis for disease mechanism.

      Thank you very much for your appreciation on our work.

      (2) Has a causal link between dystrophin and Na channel surface expression has been made, or is it an argument based on correlation? Is it possible to rule out a direct effect of lncDACH1 on Na channel expression? A bit more discussion of the limitations of the study would help here.

      Thank you for the insightful comment.

      (1). Dystrophin is a well-characterized Nav1.5 partner protein. It indirectly interacts with Nav1.5 via syntrophin, which binds with the C-terminus of dystrophin and with the SIV motif on the C-terminus of Nav1.5(Circ Res. 2006;99:407-414. doi: 10.1161/01.RES.0000237466.13252.5e)(Circulation.2014;130:147-160.doi:10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.113.007852).

      Author response image 9.

      (2).we performed pulldown and RNA immunoprecipitation experiments. The data showed that lncDACH1 failed to pulldown Nav1.5 and anti-Nav1.5 did not precipitate lncDACH1 (Online Supplementary Figure 11). These data indicated that lncDACH does not interact with Nav1.5 directly. ( Supplementary Fig. 1)

      Author response image 10.

      (3) What normalization procedures were used for qPCR quantification? I could not find these.

      Thank you for the good suggestion.The expression levels of mRNA were calculated using the comparative cycle threshold (Ct) method (2−ΔΔCt). Each data point was then normalized to ACTIN as an internal control in each sample. The final results are expressed as fold changes by normalizing the data to the values from control subjects. We have added the normalization procedures in the methods section of the article.

      (4) In general, I found the IF to be unconvincing - first, because the reported effects were not very apparent to me, but more importantly, because only exemplars were shown without quantification of a larger sample size.

      Thank you for the good suggestion. Accordingly, we quantified the immunostaining data. The data have been included in Supplementary Figure 2- 16.The sample size is labeled in the caption.

      Author response image 11.

      Fluorescence intensity of lncDACH1, dystrophin and Nav1.5 in isolated cardiomyocytes of lncDACH1-TG mice. a,b, Membrane levels of dystrophin (dys) and Nav1.5. N=9 for dys. N=8 for Nav1.5. P<0.05 versus WT group. c,d, Cytoplasm levels of dystrophin and Nav1.5. N=9. P<0.05 versus WT group. e, Fluorescence in situ hybridization (FISH) images of LncDACH1. N=10. *P<0.05 versus WT group. P-values were determined by unpaired t test.

      Author response image 12.

      Fluorescence intensity of dystrophin and Nav1.5 in cultured neonatal cardiomyocyte overexpressing lncDACH1. a,b, Membrane levels of dystrophin and Nav1.5. N=9. P<0.05 versus NC group. c,d, Cytoplasm levels of dystrophin and Nav1.5. N=9 for dys. N=12 for Nav1.5. P<0.05 versus NC group. P-values were determined by unpaired t test.

      Author response image 13.

      Fluorescence intensity of lncDACH1, dystrophin and Nav1.5 in isolated cardiomyocytes of lncDACH1-cKO mice. a,b, Membrane levels of dystrophin (dys) and Nav1.5. N=12 for dys. N=8 for Nav1.5. P<0.05 versus WT group. c,d, Distribution of cytoplasm levels of dystrophin and Nav1.5. N=12. P<0.05 versus WT group. e, Fluorescence in situ hybridization (FISH) images of LncDACH1 expression. N=8. *P<0.05 versus WT group. P-values were determined by unpaired t test.

      Author response image 14.

      Fluorescence intensity of dystrophin and Nav1.5 in cultured neonatal cardiomyocytes after knocking down of lncDACH1. a,b, Distribution of membrane levels of dystrophin and Nav1.5. N=11 for dys. N=8 for Nav1.5.P<0.05 versus NC group. c,d, Distribution of cytoplasm levels of dystrophin and Nav1.5. N=12 for dys. N=9 for Nav1.5.P<0.05 versus NC group. P-values were determined by unpaired t test.

      Author response image 15.

      Fluorescence intensity of dystrophin and Nav1.5 in isolated cardiomyocytes overexpressing cF-lncDACH1. a,b, Membrane levels of dystrophin (dys) and Nav1.5. N=9 for dys. N=7 for Nav1.5. P<0.05 versus NC group. c,d, Cytoplasm levels of dystrophin and Nav1.5. N=6 for dys. N=7 for Nav1.5. P<0.05 versus NC group. P-values were determined by unpaired t test.

      Author response image 16.

      Fluorescence intensity of dystrophin and Nav1.5 in cultured neonatal cardiomyocytes overexpressing cF-lncDACH1. a,b, Membrane levels of dystrophin and Nav1.5. N=10 for dys. N=11 for Nav1.5. P<0.05 versus NC group. c,d, Cytoplasm levels of dystrophin and Nav1.5. N=7 for dys. N=6 for Nav1.5.P<0.05 versus NC group. P-values were determined by unpaired t test.

      Author response image 17.

      Fluorescence intensity of Nav1.5 in human iPS differentiated cardiomyocytes overexpressing cF-lncDACH1. a, Membrane levels of Nav1.5. N=8 for Nav1.5. P<0.05 versus NC group. b, Cytoplasm levels of Nav1.5. N=10 for Nav1.5.P<0.05 versus NC group. P-values were determined by unpaired t test.

      (5) More information on how the fractionation kit works would be helpful. How are membrane v. cytoplasm fractions identified?

      a. I presume the ER is part of the membrane fraction? When Nav1.5 is found in the cytoplasmic fraction, what subcompartment is it in - the proteasome?

      b. In the middle panel of A - is the dystrophin signal visible on the WB for WT? I assume the selected exemplar is the best of the blots and so this raises concerns. Much is riding on the confidence with which the fractions report "membrane" v "cytoplasm."

      Thank you for the insightful comment.

      (1). How the fractionation kit works:

      The kit utilizes centrifuge column technology to obtain plasma membrane structures with native activity and minimal cross-contamination with organelles without the need for an ultracentrifuge and can be used for a variety of downstream assays. Separation principle: cells/tissues are sensitized by Buffer A, the cells pass through the centrifuge column under the action of 16000Xg centrifugation, the cell membrane is cut to make the cell rupture, and then the four components of nucleus, cytoplasm, organelle and plasma membrane will be obtained sequentially through differential centrifugation and density centrifugation, which can be used for downstream detection.

      Author response image 18.

      (2). How are membrane v. cytoplasm fractions identified:

      The membrane proteins and cytosolic proteins isolated by the kit, and then the internal controls we chose when performing the western blot experiment were :membrane protein---N-cadherin cytosolic protein---β-Actin

      Most importantly, when we incubate either the primary antibody of N-cadherin with the PVDF membrane of the cytosolic protein, or the primary antibody of the cytosolic control β-Actin with the PVDF membrane of the membrane protein, the protein bands cannot be obtained in the scan results

      Author response image 19.

      (6) More detail in Results, figures, and figure legends will assist the reader.

      a. In Fig. 5, it would be helpful to label sinus rhythm vs. arrhythmia segments.

      Thank you for the good suggestion. We've marked Sinus Rhythm and Arrhythmia segments with arrows

      Author response image 20.

      b. Please explain in the figure legend what the red bars in 5A are

      Thank you for the insightful comment. We've added the explanation to the figure legend .The red lines in the ECG traces indicate VT duration.

      c. In 5C, what the durations pertain to.

      Thank you for the good suggestion. 720ms-760ms refers to the duration of one action potential, with 720ms being the peak of one action potential and 760ms being the peak of another action potential.The interval duration is not fixed, in this artical, we use 10ms as an interval to count the phase singularities from the Consecutive phase maps. Because the shorter the interval duration, the larger the sample size and the more convincing the data.

      d. In the text, please define "breaking points" and explain what the physiological underpinning is. Define "phase singularity."

      Thank you for the insightful comment. Cardiac excitation can be viewed as an electrical wave, with a wavefront corresponding to the action potential upstroke (phase 0) and a waveback corresponding to rapid repolarization (phase 3). Normally, Under normal circumstances, cardiac conduction is composed of a sequence of well-ordered action potentials, and in the results of optical mapping experiments, different colors represent different phases.when a wave propagates through cardiac tissue, wavefront and waveback never touch.when arrhythmias occur in the heart, due to factors such as reenfrant phenomenon, the activation contour will meet the refractory contour and waves will break up, initiating a newly spiral reentry. Corresponding to the optical mapping result graph, different colors representing different time phases (including depolarization and repolarization) come together to form a vortex, and the center of the vortex is defined as the phase singularity.

      (7) In reflecting on why enhanced INa is not proarrhythmic, it is noted that the kinetics are not altered. I agree that is key, but perhaps the consequence could be better articulated. Because lncDACH1 does not alter Nav1.5 gating, the late Na current may not be enhanced to the same effect as observed with LQT gain-of-function Nav1.5 mutations, in which APD prolongation is attributed to gating defects that increase late Na current.

      Thank you for the good suggestion. Your explanation is very brilliant and important for this article. We have revised the discussion section of the article and added these explanations to it.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Experiments to specifically address the reduction in total Nav1.5 protein should be included.

      Thank you for the insightful comment. We examined the ubiquitination of Nav1.5. We found that overexpression of lncDACH1 increased the ubiquitination of Nav1.5, which explains the downregulation of total Nav1.5 protein (Online Supplementary Figure 12).

      Author response image 21.

      (2) Experiments to convincingly demonstrate that LncRNA-DACH1 regulates Nav1.5 targeting via dystrophin are missing. As it is, total reduction in Nav1.5 seems to be the explanation as to why there is a decrease in membrane Nav1.5.

      Thank you for the insightful comment. we performed pulldown and RNA immunoprecipitation experiments. The data showed that lncDACH1 can pulldown dystrophin(Figure 1),but failed to pulldown Nav1.5 and anti-Nav1.5 did not precipitate lncDACH1( Supplementary Fig. 1). These data indicated that lncDACH does not interact with Nav1.5 directly. It participates in the regulation of Nav1.5 by binding to dystrophin.

      Author response image 22.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study focuses on the role of GABA in semantic memory and its neuroplasticity. The researchers stimulated the left ATL and control site (vertex) using cTBS, measured changes in GABA before and after stimulation using MRS, and measured changes in BOLD signals during semantic and control tasks using fMRI. They analyzed the effects of stimulation on GABA, BOLD, and behavioral data, as well as the correlation between GABA changes and BOLD changes caused by the stimulation. The authors also analyzed the relationship between individual differences in GABA levels and behavioral performance in the semantic task. They found that cTBS stimulation led to increased GABA levels and decreased BOLD activity in the ATL, and these two changes were highly correlated. However, cTBS stimulation did not significantly change participants' behavioral performance on the semantic task, although behavioral changes in the control task were found after stimulation. Individual levels of GABA were significantly correlated with individuals' accuracy on the semantic task, and the inverted U-shaped (quadratic) function provides a better fit than the linear relationship. The authors argued that the results support the view that GABAergic inhibition can sharpen activated distributed semantic representations. They also claimed that the results revealed, for the first time, a non-linear, inverted-U-shape relationship between GABA levels in the ATL and semantic function, by explaining individual differences in semantic task performance and cTBS responsiveness

      Strengths:

      The findings of the research regarding the increase of GABA and decrease of BOLD caused by cTBS, as well as the correlation between the two, appear to be reliable. This should be valuable for understanding the biological effects of cTBS.

      We appreciated R1’s positive evaluation of our manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      Regarding the behavioral effects of GABA on semantic tasks, especially its impact on neuroplasticity, the results presented in the article are inadequate to support the claims made by the authors. There are three aspects of results related to this: 1) the effects of cTBS stimulation on behavior, 2) the positive correlation between GABA levels and semantic task accuracy, and 3) the nonlinear relationship between GABA levels and semantic task accuracy. Among these three pieces of evidence, the clearest one is the positive correlation between GABA levels and semantic task accuracy. However, it is important to note that this correlation already exists before the stimulation, and there are no results supporting that it can be modulated by the stimulation. In fact, cTBS significantly increases GABA levels but does not significantly improve performance on semantic tasks. According to the authors' interpretation of the results in Table 1, cTBS stimulation may have masked the practice effects that were supposed to occur. In other words, the stimulation decreased rather than enhanced participants' behavioral performance on the semantic task.

      The stimulation effect on behavioral performance could potentially be explained by the nonlinear relationship between GABA and performance on semantic tasks proposed by the authors. However, the current results are also insufficient to support the authors' hypothesis of an inverted U-shaped curve. Firstly, in Figure 3C and Figure 3D, the last one-third of the inverted U-shaped curve does not have any data points. In other words, as the GABA level increases the accuracy of the behavior first rises and then remains at a high level. This pattern of results may be due to the ceiling effect of the behavioral task's accuracy, rather than an inverted U-shaped ATL GABA function in semantic memory. Second, the article does not provide sufficient evidence to support the existence of an optimal level of GABA in the ATL. Fortunately, this can be tested with additional data analysis. The authors can estimate, based on pre-stimulus data from individuals, the optimal level of GABA for semantic functioning. They can then examine two expectations: first, participants with pre-stimulus GABA levels below the optimal level should show improved behavioral performance after stimulation-induced GABA elevation; second, participants with pre-stimulus GABA levels above the optimal level should exhibit a decline in behavioral performance after stimulation-induced GABA elevation. Alternatively, the authors can categorize participants into groups based on whether their behavioral performance improves or declines after stimulation, and compare the pre- and post-stimulus GABA levels between the two groups. If the improvement group shows significantly lower pre-stimulus GABA levels compared to the decline group, and both groups exhibit an increase in GABA levels after stimulation, this would also provide some support for the authors' hypothesis.

      Another issue in this study is the confounding of simulation effects and practice effects. According to the results, there is a significant improvement in performance after the simulation, at least in the control task, which the authors suggest may reflect a practice effect. The authors argue that the results in Table 1 suggest a similar practice effect in the semantic task, but it is masked by the simulation of the ATL. However, since no significant effects were found in the ANOVA analysis of the semantic task, it is actually difficult to draw a conclusion. This potential confound increases the risk in data analysis and interpretation. Specifically, for Figure 3D, if practice effects are taken into account, the data before and after the simulation should not be analyzed together.

      We thank for the R1’s thoughtful comments. Due to the limited dataset, it is challenging to determine the optimal level of ATL GABA. Here, we re-grouped the participants into the responders and non-responders to address the issues R1 raised. It is important to note that we applied cTBS over the ATL, an inhibitory protocol, which decreases cortical excitability within the target region and semantic task performance (Chiou et al., 2014; Jung and Lambon Ralph, 2016). Therefore, responders and non-responders were classified according to their semantic performance changes after the ATL stimulation: subjects showing a decrease in task performance at the post ATL cTBS compared to the baseline were defined as responders; whereas subjects showing no changes or an increase in their task performance after the ATL cTBS were defined as non-responders. Here, we used the inverse efficiency (IE) score (RT/1-the proportion of errors) as individual semantic task performance to combine accuracy and RT. Accordingly, we had 7 responders and 10 non-responders.

      Recently, we demonstrated that the pre-stimulation neurochemical profile of the ATL was associated with cTBS responsiveness on semantic processing (Jung et al., 2022). Specifically, the baseline GABA and Glx levels in the ATL predicted cTBS induced semantic task performance changes: individuals with higher GABA and lower Glx in the ATL would show bigger inhibitory effects and responders who decreased semantic task performance after ATL stimulation. Importantly, the baseline semantic task performance was significantly better in responders compared to non-responders. Thus, we expected that responders would show better semantic task performance along with higher ATL GABA levels in their pre-stimulation session relative to non-responders. We performed the planned t-tests to examine the difference in task performance and ATL GABA levels in pre-stimulation session. The results revealed that responders had lower IE (better task performance, t = -1.756, p = 0.050) and higher ATL GABA levels (t = 2.779, p = 0.006) in the pre-stimulation session (Figure 3).

      In addition, we performed planned paired t-test to investigate the cTBS effects on semantic task performance and regional ATL GABA levels according to the groups (responders and non-responders). Responders showed significant increase of IE (poorer performance, t = -1.937, p = 0.050) and ATL GABA levels (t = -2.203, p = 0.035) after ATL cTBS. Non-responders showed decreased IE (better performance, t = 2.872, p = 0.009) and increased GABA levels in the ATL (t = -3.912, p = 0.001) after the ATL stimulation. The results were summarised in Figure 3.

      It should be noted that there was no difference between the responders and non-responders in the control task performance at the pre-stimulation session. Both groups showed better performance after the ATL stimulation – practice effects (Author response image 1 below).

      Author response image 1.

      As we expected, our results replicated the previous findings (Jung et al., 2022) that responders who showed the inhibitory effects on semantic task performance after the ATL stimulation had higher GABA levels in the ATL than non-responders at their baseline, the pre-stimulation session. Importantly, cTBS increased ATL GABA levels in both responders and non-responders. These findings support our hypothesis – the inverted U-shaped ATL GABA function for cTBS response (Figure 4B). cTBS over the ATL resulted in the inhibition of semantic task performance among individuals initially characterized by higher concentrations of GABA in the ATL, indicative of better baseline semantic capacity. Conversely, the impact of cTBS on individuals with lower semantic ability and relatively lower GABA levels in the ATL was either negligible or exhibited a facilitatory effect. This study posits that individuals with elevated GABA levels in the ATL tend to be more responsive to cTBS, displaying inhibitory effects on semantic task performance (responders). On the contrary, those with lower GABA concentrations and reduced semantic ability were less likely to respond or even demonstrated facilitatory effects following ATL cTBS (non-responders). Moreover, our findings suggest the critical role of the baseline neurochemical profile in individual responsiveness to cTBS in the context of semantic memory. This highlights substantial variability among individuals in terms of semantic memory and its plasticity induced by cTBS.

      Our analyses with responders and non-responders have highlighted significant inter-individual variability in both pre- and post-ATL stimulation sessions, including behavioural outcomes and ATL GABA levels. Responders showed distinctive neurochemical profiles in the ATL, associating with their task performance and responsiveness to cTBS in semantic memory. Our findings suggest that responders may possess an optimal level of ATL GABA conducive to efficient semantic processing. This results in enhanced semantic task performance and increased responsiveness to cTBS, leading to inhibitory effects on semantic processing following an inverted U-shaped function. On the contrary, non-responders, characterized by relatively lower ATL GABA levels, exhibited poorer semantic task performance compared to responders at the baseline. The cTBS-induced increase in GABA may contribute to their subsequent improvement in semantic performance. These results substantiate our hypothesis regarding the inverted U-shape function of ATL GABA and its relationship with semantic behaviour.

      To address the confounding of simulation effects and practice effects in behavioural data, we used the IE and computed cTBS-induced performance changes (POST-PRE). Employing a 2 x 2 ANOVA with stimulation (ATL vs. Vertex) and task (Semantic vs. Control) as within subject factors, we found a significant task effect (F<sub>1, 15</sub> = 6.656, p = 0.021) and a marginally significant interaction between stimulation and task (F<sub>1, 15</sub> = 4.064, p = 0.061). Post hoc paired t-test demonstrated that ATL stimulation significantly decreased semantic task performance (positive IE) compared to both vertex stimulation (t = 1.905, p = 0.038) and control task (t = 2.814, p = 0.006). Facilitatory effects (negative IE) were observed in the control stimulation and control task. Please, see the Author response image 2 below. Thus, we believe that ATL cTBS induced task-specific inhibitory effects in semantic processing.

      Author response image 2.

      Accordingly, we have revised the Methods and Materials (p 25, line 589), Results (p8, line 188, p9-11, line 202- 248), Discussion (p19, line 441) and Figures (Fig. 2-3 & all Supplementary Figures).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors combined inhibitory neurostimulation (continuous theta-burst stimulation, cTBS) with subsequent MRI measurements to investigate the impact of inhibition of the left anterior temporal lobe (ATL) on task-related activity and performance during a semantic task and link stimulation-induced changes to the neurochemical level by including MR spectroscopy (MRS). cTBS effects in the ATL were compared with a control site in the vertex. The authors found that relative to stimulation of the vertex, cTBS significantly increased the local GABA concentration in the ATL. cTBS also decreased task-related semantic activity in the ATL and potentially delayed semantic task performance by hindering a practice effect from pre to post. Finally, pooled data from their previous MRS study suggest an inverted U-shape between GABA concentration and behavioral performance. These results help to better understand the neuromodulatory effects of non-invasive brain stimulation on task performance.

      Strengths:

      Multimodal assessment of neurostimulation effects on the behavioral, neurochemical, and neural levels. In particular, the link between GABA modulation and behavior is timely and potentially interesting.

      We appreciated R2’s positive evaluation of our manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      The analyses are not sound. Some of the effects are very weak and not all conclusions are supported by the data since some of the comparisons are not justified. There is some redundancy with a previous paper by the same authors, so the novelty and contribution to the field are overall limited. A network approach might help here.

      Thank you for your thoughtful critique. We have taken your comments into careful consideration and have made efforts to address them.

      We acknowledge the limitations regarding the strength of some effects and the potential lack of justification for certain conclusions drawn from the data. In response, we have reviewed our analyses and performed new analyses to address the behavioural discrepancies and strengthened the justifications for our conclusions.

      Regarding the redundancy with a previous paper by the same authors, we understand your concern about the novelty and contribution to the field. We aim to clarify the unique contributions of our current study compared to our previous work. The main novelty lies in uncovering the neurochemical mechanisms behind cTBS-induced neuroplasticity in semantic representation and establishing a non-linear relationship between ATL GABA levels and semantic representation. Our previous work primarily demonstrated the linear relationship between ATL GABA levels and semantic processing. In the current study, we aimed to address two key objectives: 1) investigate the role of GABA in the ATL in short-term neuroplasticity in semantic representation, and 2) explore a biologically more plausible function between ATL GABA levels and semantic function using a larger sample size by combining data from two studies.

      Additionally, we appreciate your suggestion regarding a network approach. We have explored the relationship between ATL GABA and cTBS-induced functional connectivity changes in our new analysis. However, there was no significant relationship between them. In the current study, our decision to focus on the mechanistic link between ATL GABA, task-induced activity, and individual semantic task performance reflects our intention to provide a detailed exploration of the role of GABA in the ATL and semantic neuroplasticity.

      We have addressed the specific weaknesses raised by Reviewer #2 in detail in our response to 'Reviewer #2 Recommendations For The Authors'.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors used cTBS TMS, magnetic resonance spectroscopy (MRS), and functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) as the main methods of investigation. Their data show that cTBS modulates GABA concentration and task-dependent BOLD in the ATL, whereby greater GABA increase following ATL cTBS showed greater reductions in BOLD changes in ATL. This effect was also reflected in the performance of the behavioural task response times, which did not subsume to practice effects after AL cTBS as opposed to the associated control site and control task. This is in line with their first hypothesis. The data further indicates that regional GABA concentrations in the ATL play a crucial role in semantic memory because individuals with higher (but not excessive) GABA concentrations in the ATLs performed better on the semantic task. This is in line with their second prediction. Finally, the authors conducted additional analyses to explore the mechanistic link between ATL inhibitory GABAergic action and semantic task performance. They show that this link is best captured by an inverted U-shaped function as a result of a quadratic linear regression model. Fitting this model to their data indicates that increasing GABA levels led to better task performance as long as they were not excessively low or excessively high. This was first tested as a relationship between GABA levels in the ATL and semantic task performance; then the same analyses were performed on the pre and post-cTBS TMS stimulation data, showing the same pattern. These results are in line with the conclusions of the authors.

      Strengths:

      I thoroughly enjoyed reading the manuscript and appreciate its contribution to the field of the role of the ATL in semantic processing, especially given the efforts to overcome the immense challenges of investigating ATL function by neuroscientific methods such as MRS, fMRI & TMS. The main strengths are summarised as follows:

      • The work is methodologically rigorous and dwells on complex and complementary multimethod approaches implemented to inform about ATL function in semantic memory as reflected in changes in regional GABA concentrations. Although the authors previously demonstrated a negative relationship between increased GABA levels and BOLD signal changes during semantic processing, the unique contribution of this work lies within evidence on the effects of cTBS TMS over the ATL given by direct observations of GABA concentration changes and further exploring inter-individual variability in ATL neuroplasticity and consequent semantic task performance.

      • Another major asset of the present study is implementing a quadratic regression model to provide insights into the non-linear relationship between inhibitory GABAergic activity within the ATLs and semantic cognition, which improves with increasing GABA levels but only as long as GABA levels are not extremely high or low. Based on this finding, the authors further pinpoint the role of inter-individual differences in GABA levels and cTBS TMS responsiveness, which is a novel explanation not previously considered (according to my best knowledge) in research investigating the effect of TMS on ATLs.

      • There are also many examples of good research practice throughout the manuscript, such as the explicitly stated exploratory analyses, calculation of TMS electric fields, using ATL optimised dual echo fRMI, links to open source resources, and a part of data replicates a previous study by Jung et. al (2017).

      We appreciated R3’s very positive evaluation of our manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      • Research on the role of neurotransmitters in semantic memory is still very rare and therefore the manuscript would benefit from more context on how GABA contributes to individual differences in cognition/behaviour and more justification on why the focus is on semantic memory. A recommendation to the authors is to highlight and explain in more depth the particular gaps in evidence in this regard.

      This is an excellent suggestion. Accordingly, we have revised our introduction, highlighting the role of GABA on individual differences in cognition and behaviour and research gap in this field.

      Introduction p3, line 77   

      “Research has revealed a link between variability in the levels of GABA in the human brain and  individual differences in cognitive behaviour (for a review, see 5). Specifically, GABA levels in the sensorimotor cortex were found to predict individual performance in the related tasks: higher GABA levels were correlated with a slower reaction time in simple motor tasks (12) as well as improved motor control (13) and sensory discrimination (14, 15). Visual cortex GABA concentrations were positively correlated with a stronger orientation illusion (16), a prolonged binocular rivalry (17), while displaying a negative correlation with motion suppression (17). Individuals with greater frontal GABA concentrations demonstrated enhanced working memory capacity (18, 19). Studies on learning have reported the importance of GABAergic changes in the motor cortex for motor and perceptual learning: individuals showing bigger decreases in local GABA concentration can facilitate this plasticity more effectively (12, 20-22). However, the relationship between GABAergic inhibition and higher cognition in humans remains unclear. The aim of the study was to investigate the role of GABA in relation to human higher cognition – semantic memory and its neuroplasticity at individual level.”

      • The focus across the experiments is on the left ATL; how do the authors justify this decision? Highlighting the justification for this methodological decision will be important, especially given that a substantial body of evidence suggests that the ATL should be involved in semantics bilaterally (e.g. Hoffman & Lambon Ralph, 2018; Lambon Ralph et al., 2009; Rice et al., 2017; Rice, Hoffman, et al., 2015; Rice, Ralph, et al., 2015; Visser et al., 2010).

      This is an important point, which we thank R3 for. Supporting the bilateral ATL systems in semantic representation, previous rTMS studies delivered an inhibitory rTMS in the left and right ATL and both ATL stimulation significantly decreased semantic task performance (Pobric et al., 2007 PNAS; 2010 Neuropsychologia; Lambon Ralph et al., 2009 Cerebral Cortex). Importantly, there was no significant difference on rTMS effects between the left and right ATL stimulation. Therefore, we assume that either left or right ATL stimulation could produce similar, intended rTMS effects on semantic processing. In the current study, we combined the cTBS with multimodal imaging to examine the cTBS effects in the ATL. Due to the design of the study (having a control site, control task, and control stimulation) and limitation of scanning time, we could have a target region for the simulation and chose the left ATL, which was the same MRS VOI of our precious study (Jung et al., 2017). This enabled us to combine the datasets to explore GABAergic function in the ATL.

      • When describing the results, (Pg. 11; lines 233-243), the authors first show that the higher the BOLD signal intensity in ATL as a response to the semantic task, the lower the GABA concentration. Then, they state that individuals with higher GABA concentrations in the ATL perform the semantic task better. Although it becomes clearer with the exploratory analysis described later, at this point, the results seem rather contradictory and make the reader question the following: if increased GABA leads to less task-induced ATL activation, why at this point increased GABA also leads to facilitating and not inhibiting semantic task performance? It would be beneficial to acknowledge this contradiction and explain how the following analyses will address this discrepancy.

      We apologised that our description was not clear. As R1 also commented this issue, we re-analysed behavioural results and demonstrated inter-individual variability in response to cTBS (Please, see the reply to R1 above).

      • There is an inconsistency in reporting behavioural outcomes from the performance on the semantic task. While experiment 1 (cTBS modulates regional GANA concentrations and task-related BOLD signal changes in the ATL) reports the effects of cTBS TMS on response times, experiment 2 (Regional GABA concentrations in the ATL play a crucial role in semantic memory) and experiment 3 (The inverted U-shaped function of ATL GABA concentration in semantic processing) report results on accuracy. For full transparency, the manuscript would benefit from reporting all results (either in the main text or supplementary materials) and providing further explanations on why only one or the other outcome is sensitive to the experimental manipulations across the three experiments.

      Regarding the inconsistency of behavioural outcome, first, there were inter- individual differences in our behavioural data (see the Figure below). Our new analyses revealed that there were responders and non-responders in terms of cTBS responsiveness (please, see the reply to R1 above. It should be noted that the classification of responders and non-responders was identical when we used semantic task accuracy). In addition, RT was compounded by practice effects (faster in the post-stimulation sessions), except for the ATL-post session. Second, we only found the significant relationship between semantic task accuracy and ATL GABA concentrations in both previous (Jung et al., 2017) and current study. ATL GABA levels were not correlated with semantic RT (Jung et al., 2017: r = 0.34, p = 0.14, current study: r = 0.26, p = 0.14). It should be noted that there were no significant correlations between ATL GABA levels and semantic inverse efficiency (IE) in both studies (Jung et al., 2017: r = 0.13, p = 0.62, current study: r = 0.22, p = 0.44). As a result, we found no significant linear and non-linear relationship between ATL GABA levels and RT (linear function R<sup>2</sup> = 0.21, p =0.45, quadratic function: R<sup>2</sup> = 0.17, p = 0.21) and between ATL GABA levels and IE (linear function R<sup>2</sup> = 0.24, p =0.07, quadratic function: R<sup>2</sup> = 2.24, p = 0.12). Thus, our data suggests that GABAergic action in the ATL may sharpen activated distributed semantic representations through lateral inhibition, leading to more accurate semantic performance (Isaacson & Scanziani., 2011; Jung et al., 2017).

      We agreed with R3’s suggestion to report all results. The results of control task and control stimulation were included in Supplementary information (Figure S1, S4-5).

      Overall, the most notable impact of this work is the contribution to a better understanding of individual differences in semantic behaviour and the potential to guide therapeutic interventions to restore semantic abilities in neurological populations. While I appreciate that this is certainly the case, I would be curious to read more about how this could be achieved.

      Thank you once again to R3 for the positive evaluation of our study. We acknowledge your interest in understanding the practical implications of our findings. It is crucial to highlight the substantial variability in the effectiveness of rTMS and TBS protocols among individuals. Previous studies in healthy subjects have reported response rates ranging from 40% to 70% in the motor cortex, and in patients, the remission rate for rTMS treatment in treatment-resistant depression is around 29%. Presently, the common practice in rTMS treatment is to apply the same protocol uniformly to all patients.

      Our study demonstrated that 40% of individuals in our sample were classified as responders to ATL cTBS. Notably, we observed differences in ATL GABA levels before stimulation between responders and non-responders. Responders exhibited higher baseline ATL GABA levels, along with better semantic performance at the baseline (as mentioned in our response to R1). This suggests that establishing the optimal level of ATL GABA by assessing baseline GABA levels before stimulation could enable the tailoring of an ideal protocol for each individual, thereby enhancing their semantic capability. To achieve this, more data is needed to delineate the proposed inverted U-shaped function of ATL GABA in semantic memory.

      Our ongoing efforts involve collecting additional data from both healthy aging and dementia cohorts using the same protocol. Additionally, future pharmacological studies aim to modulate GABA, providing a deeper understanding of the individual variations in semantic function. These initiatives contribute to the potential development of personalized therapeutic interventions for individuals with semantic impairments.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      My major suggestion is to include an analysis regarding the "existence of an optimal GABA level". This would be the most direct test for the authors' hypothesis on the relationship between GABA and semantic memory and its neuroplasticity. Please refer to the public review section for details.

      Here are some other suggestions and questions.

      (1) The sample size of this study is relatively small. Although the sample size was estimated, a small sample size can bring risks to the generalizability of the results to the population. How did the author consider this risk? Is it necessary to increase the sample size?

      We agreed with R1’s comments. However, the average of sample size in healthy individuals was 17.5 in TMS studies on language function (number of studies = 26, for a review, see Qu et al, 2022 Frontiers in Human Neuroscience), 18.3 in the studies employing rTMS and fMRI on language domain (number of studies = 8, for a review, see Hartwigsen & Volz., 2021 NeuroImage), and 20.8 in TMS combined MRS studies (number of studies = 11, for a review, see Cuypers & Marsman., 2021 NeuroImage). Notably, only two studies utilizing rTMS, fMRI, and MRS had sample sizes of N = 7 (Grohn et al., 2019 Frontiers in Neuroscience) and N = 16 (Rafique & Steeves. 2020 Brain and Behavior). Despite having 19 participants in our current study, it is noteworthy that our sample size aligns closely with studies employing similar approaches and surpasses those employing the same methodology.

      As a result of the changes in a scanner and the relocation of the authors to different institutes, it is impossible to increase the sample size for this study.

      (2) How did the authors control practice effects? How many practice trials were arranged before the experiment? Did you avoid the repetition of stimuli in tasks before and after the stimuli?

      At the beginning of the experiment, participants performed the practice session (20 trials) for each tasks outside of the scanner. Stimuli in tasks were not repeated before and after stimulation sessions.

      (3) In Figures 2D and E, does the vertical axis of the BOLD signal refer to the semantic task itself or the difference between the semantic and control tasks? Could you provide the respective patterns of the BOLD signal before and after the stimuli in the semantic and control tasks in a figure?

      We apologised that the names of axis of Figure 2 were not clear. In Fig 2D-E, the BOLD signal changes refer to the semantic task itself. Accordingly, we have revised the Fig. 2.

      (4) Figure 1A shows that MRS ATL always comes before MRS Vertex. Was the order of them counterbalanced across participants?

      The order of MRS acquisition was not counterbalanced across participants.

      (5) I am confused by the statement "Our results provide strong evidence that regional GABA levels increase following inhibitory cTBS in the human associative cortex, specifically in the ATL, a representational semantic hub. Notably, the observed increase was specific to the ATL and semantic processing, as it was not observed in the control region (vertex) and not associated with control processing (visuospatial processing)". GABA levels are obtained in the MRS, and this stage does not involve any behavioral tasks. Why do the authors state that the increase in GABA levels was specific to semantic processing and was not associated with control processing?

      Following R1’s suggestion, we have re-analysed behavioural data and showed cTBS-induced suppression in semantic task performance after ATL stimulation only (please, see the reply above). There were no cTBS effects in the control task performance, control site (vertex) and no correlations between the ATL GABA levels and control task performance. The Table was added to the Supplementary Information as Table S3.

      (6) In Figure 3, the relationship between GABA levels in the ATL and performance on semantic tasks is presented. What is the relationship between GABA levels at the control site and performance on semantic tasks? Should a graph be provided to illustrate this?

      As the vertex was not involved in semantic processing (no activation during semantic processing), we did not perform the analysis between vertex GABA levels and semantic task performance. Following R3’s suggestion, we performed a linear regression between vertex GABA levels and semantic task performance in the pre-stimulation session, accounting for GM volume, age, and sex. As we expected that there was no significant relationship between them. (R<sup>2</sup> = 0.279, p = 0.962).

      (7) The author claims that GABA can sharpen distributed semantic representations. However, even though there is a positive correlation between GABA levels and semantic performance, there is no direct evidence supporting the inference that this correlation is achieved through sharpening distributed semantic representations. How did the author come to this conclusion? Are there any other possibilities?

      We showed that ATL GABA concentrations in pre-stimulation was ‘negatively’ correlated with task-induced regional activity in the ATL and ‘positively’ correlated with semantic task performance. In our semantic task, such as recognizing a camel (Fig. 1), the activation of all related information in the semantic representation (e.g., mammal, desert, oasis, nomad, humps, & etc.) occurs. To respond accurately to the task (a cactus), it becomes essential to suppress irrelevant meanings through an inhibitory mechanism. Therefore, the inhibitory processing linked to ATL GABA levels may contribute to more efficient processing in this task.

      Animal studies have proposed a related hypothesis in the context of the close interplay between activation and inhibition in sensorimotor cortices (Isaacson & Scanziani., 2011). Liu et al (2011, Neuron) demonstrated that the rise of excitatory glutamate in the visual cortex is followed by the increase of inhibitory GABA in response to visual stimuli. Tight coupling of these paired excitatory-inhibitory functions results in a sharpening of the activated representation. (for a review, see Isaacson & Scanziani., 2011 Neuron How Inhibition Shapes Cortical Activity). In human, Kolasinski et al (2017, Current Biology) revealed that higher sensorimotor GABA levels are associated with more selective cortical tuning measured fMRI, which in turn is associated with enhanced perception (better tactile discrimination). They claimed that the relationship between inhibition and cortical tuning could result from GABAergic signalling, shaping the selective response profiles of neurons in the primary sensory regions of the brain. This process is crucial for the topographic organization (task-induced fMRI activation in the sensorimotor cortex) vital to sensory perception.

      Building on these findings, we suggest a similar mechanism may operate in higher-order association cortices, including the ATL semantic hub. This suggests a process that leads to more sharply defined semantic representations associated with more selective task-induced activation in the ATL and, consequently, more accurate semantic performance (Jung et al., 2017).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major issues:

      (1) It wasn't completely clear what the novel aspect of this study relative to their previous one on GABAergic modulation in semantic memory issue, this should be clarified. If I understand correctly, the main difference from the previous study is that this study considers the TMS-induced modulation of GABA?

      We apologise that the novelty of study was not clear. The main novelty lies in uncovering the neurochemical mechanisms behind cTBS-induced neuroplasticity in semantic representation and establishing a non-linear relationship between ATL GABA levels and semantic representation. Our previous work firstly demonstrated the linear relationship between the ATL GABA levels and semantic processing. In the current study, we aimed to address two key objectives: 1) investigate the role of GABA in the ATL in short-term neuroplasticity in semantic representation, and 2) explore a biologically more plausible function between ATL GABA levels and semantic function using a larger sample size by combining data from two studies.

      The first part of the experiment in this study mirrored our previous work, involving multimodal imaging during the pre-stimulation session. We conducted the same analysis as in our previous study to replicate the findings in a different cohort. Subsequently, we combined the data from both studies to examine the potential inverted U-shape function between ATL GABA levels and semantic function/neuroplasticity.

      Accordingly, we have revised the Introduction by adding the following sentences.

      “The study aimed to investigate the neural mechanisms underlying cTBS-induced neuroplasticity in semantic memory by linking cortical neurochemical profiles, task-induced regional activity, and variability in semantic memory capability within the ATL.”

      “Furthermore, to address and explore the relationship between regional GABA levels in the ATL and semantic memory function, we combined data from our previous study (Jung et al., 2017) with the current study’s data.”

      (2) I found the scope of the study very narrow. I guess everyone agrees that TMS induces network effects, but the authors selectively focus on the modulation in the ATL. This is unfortunate since semantic memory requires the interaction between several brain regions and a network perspective might add some novel aspect to this study which has a strong overlap with their previous one. I am aware that MRS can only measure pre-defined voxels but even these changes could be related to stimulation-induced effects on task-related activity at the whole brain level.

      We appreciate R2's thoughtful comments and acknowledge the concern about the perceived narrow scope of the study. We agreed with the notion that cTBS induces network-level changes. In our investigation, we did observe cTBS over the ATL influencing task-induced regional activity in other semantic regions and functional connectivity within the semantic system. Specifically, ATL cTBS increased activation in the right ATL after ATL stimulation compared to pre-stimulation, along with increased functional connectivity between the left and right ATL, between the left ATL and right semantic control regions (IFG and pMTG), and between the left ATL and right angular gyrus. These results were the replication of Jung & Lambon Ralph (2016) Cerebral Cortex.

      However, it is important to note that we did not find any significant correlations between ATL GABA changes and cTBS-induced changes in the functional connectivity. Consequently, we are currently preparing another paper that specifically addresses the network-level changes induced by ATL cTBS. In the current study, our decision to focus on the mechanistic link between ATL GABA, task-induced activity, and individual semantic task performance reflects our intention to provide a detailed exploration of the role of GABA in the ATL and semantic neuroplasticity.

      (3) On a related note, I think the provided link between GABAergic modulation and behavioral changes after TMS is somehow incomplete because it ignores the stimulation effects on task-related activity. Could these be linked in a regression analysis with two predictors (with behavior or GABA level as a criterion and the other two variables as predictors)?

      In response to R2’s suggestion, we performed a multiple regression analysis, by modelling cTBS-induced ATL GABA changes (POST-PRE), task-related BODL signal changes (POST-PRE), and semantic task performance (IE) changes (POST-PRE). The model with GABA changes (POST-PRE) as a criterion was significant (F<sub>2, 14</sub> = 8.77, p = 0.003), explaining 56% of cTBS-induced ATL GABA changes (adjusted R<sup>2</sup>) with cTBS-related ATL BOLD signal changes and semantic task performance changes. However, the model with semantic task performance change (POST-PRE) as a criterion was not significant (F = 0.26, p = 0.775). Therefore, cTBS-induced changes in ATL BOLD signals and semantic task performance significantly predicted the cTBS-induced ATL GABA changes. It was found that cTBS-induced ATL BOLD signal changes significantly predicted cTBS-induced GABA changes in the ATL (β = -4.184, p = 0.001) only, aligning with the results of our partial correlation analysis.

      Author response table 1.

      (4) Several statements in the intro and discussion need to be rephrased or toned down. For example, I would not agree that TBS "made healthy individuals mimic semantic dementia patients". This is clearly overstated. TMS protocols slightly modulate brain functions, but this is not similar to lesions or brain damage. Please rephrase. In the discussion, it is stated that the results provide "strong evidence". I disagree based on the overall low values for most comparisons.

      Hence, we have revised both the Introduction and the Discussion.

      “Perturbing the ATL with inhibitory repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation (rTMS) and theta burst stimulation (TBS) resulted in healthy individuals exhibiting slower reaction times during semantic processing.”

      “Our results demonstrated an increase in regional GABA levels following inhibitory cTBS in human associative cortex, specifically in the ATL, a representational semantic hub.”

      (5) Changes in the BOLD signal in the ATL: There is a weak interaction between stimulation and VOI and post hoc comparisons with very low values reported. Are these corrected for multiple comparisons? I think that selectively reporting weak values with small-volume corrections (if they were performed) does not provide strong evidence. What about whole-brain effects and proper corrections for multiple comparisons?

      There was no significant interaction between the stimulation (ATL vs. Vertex) and session (pre vs post) in the ATL BOLD signal changes (p = 0.29). Our previous work combining rTMS with fMRI (Binney et al., 2015; Jung & Lambon Ralph, 2016) demonstrated that there was no significant rTMS effects on the whole brain analysis and only ROI analyses revealed the subtle but significant rTMS effects in the target site (reduction of task-induced ATL activity). In the current study, we focused our hypothesis on the anticipated decrease in task-induced regional activity in the ATL during semantic processing following the inhibitory cTBS. Accordingly, we conducted planned paired t-tests specifically within the ATL for BOLD signal changes without applying multiple comparison corrections. It's noted that these results were derived from regions of interest (ROIs) and not from small-volume corrections. Furthermore, no significant findings emerged from the comparison of the ATL post-session vs. Vertex post-session and the ATL pre-session vs. ATL post-session in the whole-brain analysis (see Supplementary figure 2).

      Accordingly, we have added the Figure S2 in the Supplementary Information.

      (6) Differences between selected VOIs: Numerically, the activity (BOLD signal effect) is higher in the vertex than the ATL, even in the pre-TMS session (Figure 2D). What does that mean? Does that indicate that the vertex also plays a role in semantic memory?

      We apologise that the figure was not clear. Fig. 2D displays the BOLD signal changes in the ATL VOI for the ATL and Vertex stimulation. As there was no activation in the vertex during semantic processing, we did not present the fMRI results of vertex VOI (please, see Author response image 3 below). Accordingly, we have revised the label of Y axis of the Figure 2D – ATL BOLD signal change.

      Author response image 3.

      The cTBS effects within the Vertex VOI during semantic processing

      (7) Could you provide the e-field for the vertex condition?

      We have added it in the Supplementary Information as Supplementary Figure 6.

      (8) Stimulation effects on performance (RTs): There is a main effect of the session in the control task. Post-hoc tests show that control performance is faster in the post-pre comparison, while the semantic task is not faster after ATL TMS (as it might be delayed). I think you need to perform a 3-way ANOVA here including the factor task if you want to show task specificity (e.g., differences for the control but not semantic task) and then a step-down ANOVA or t-tests.

      Thanks for R2’s suggestion. We have addressed this issue in reply to R1. Please, see the reply to R1 for semantic task performance analysis.

      Minor issue:

      In the visualization of the design, it would be helpful to have the timing/duration of the different measures to directly understand how long the experiment took.

      We have added the duration of the experiment design in the Figure 1.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Further Recommendations:

      • Pg. 6; lines 138-147: There is a sense of uncertainty about the hypothesis conveyed by expressions such as 'may' or 'could be'. A more confident tone would be beneficial.

      Thanks for R3’s thoughtful suggestion. We have revised the Introduction.

      • Pg. 6; line 155: left or bilateral ATL, please specify.

      We have added ‘left’ in the manuscript.

      • Pg. 8; line 188: Can the authors provide a table with peak activations to complement the figure?

      We have added the Table for the fMRI results in the Supplementary Information (Table S1).

      • Pg 9; Figure 2C: The ATL activation elicited by the semantic task seems rather medial. What are the exact peak coordinates for this cluster, and how can the authors demonstrate that the electric fields induced by TMS, which seem rather lateral (Figure 2A), also impacted this area? Please explain.

      We apologise that the Figure was not clear. cTBS was delivered to the peak coordinate of the left ventral ATL [-36, -15, -30] determined by previous fMRI studies (Binney et al., 2010; Visser et al., 2012). To confirm the cTBS effects at the target region, we conducted ROI analysis centred in the ventral ATL [-36, -15, -30] and the results demonstrated a reduced ATL activity after ATL stimulation during semantic processing (t = -2.43, p = 0.014) (please, see Author response image 4 below). Thus, cTBS successfully modulated the ATL activity reaching to the targe coordinate.

      Author response image 4.

      • Pg.23; line 547: What was the centre coordinate of the ROI (VOI), and was it consistent across all participants? Please specify.

      We used the ATL MRS VOI (a hexahedron with 4cm x 2cm x 2cm) for our regions of interest analysis and the central coordinate was around -45, -12, -20 (see Author response image 5). As we showed in Fig. 1C, the location of ATL VOI was consistent across all participants.

      Author response image 5.

      • Pg. 24; line 556-570: What software was used for performing the statistical analyses? Please specify.

      We have added the following sentence.

      “Statistical analyses were undertaken using Statistics Package for the Social Sciences (SPSS, Version 25, IBM Cary, NC, USA) and RStudio (2023).”

      • Pg. 21; line 472-480: It is not clear if and how neuronavigation was used (e.g. were T1scans or an average MNI template used, what was the exact coordinate of stimulation and how was it decided upon). Please specify.

      We apologised the description was not clear. We have added a paragraph describing the procedure.

      “The target site in the left ATL was delineated based on the peak coordinate (MNI -36 -15 -30), which represents maximal peak activation observed during semantic processing in previous distortion-corrected fMRI studies (38, 41). This coordinate was transformed to each individual’s native space using Statistical Parametric Mapping software (SPM8, Wellcome Trust Centre for Neuroimaging, London, UK). T1 images were normalised to the MNI template and then the resulting transformations were inverted to convert the target MNI coordinate back to the individual's untransformed native space coordinate. These native-space ATL coordinates were subsequently utilized for frameless stereotaxy, employing the Brainsight TMS-MRI co-registration system (Rogue Research, Montreal, Canada). The vertex (Cz) was designated as a control site following the international 10–20 system.”

      • Miscellaneous

      - line 57: insert 'about' to the following sentence: '....little is known the mechanisms linking'

      - line 329: 'Previous, we demonstrated'....should be Previously we demonstrated....

      We thank for R3’s thorough evaluation our manuscript. We have revised them.

      Furthermore, it would be an advantage to make the data freely available for the benefit of the broader scientific community.

      We appreciate Reviewer 3’s suggestion. Currently, this data is being used in other unpublished work. However, upon acceptance of this manuscript, we will make the data freely available for the benefit of the broader scientific community.

      Chiou R, Sowman PF, Etchell AC, Rich AN (2014) A conceptual lemon: theta burst stimulation to the left anterior temporal lobe untangles object representation and its canonical color. J Cogn Neurosci 26:1066-1074.

      Jung J, Lambon Ralph MA (2016) Mapping the Dynamic Network Interactions Underpinning Cognition: A cTBS-fMRI Study of the Flexible Adaptive Neural System for Semantics. Cereb Cortex 26:3580-3590.

      Jung J, Williams SR, Sanaei Nezhad F, Lambon Ralph MA (2017) GABA concentrations in the anterior temporal lobe predict human semantic processing. Sci Rep 7:15748.

      Jung J, Williams SR, Nezhad FS, Lambon Ralph MA (2022) Neurochemical profiles of the anterior temporal lobe predict response of repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation on semantic processing. Neuroimage 258:119386.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Weaknesses

      (1) The authors face a technical challenge (which they acknowledge): they use two numbers (mean and variance) to characterize synaptic variability, whereas in the brain there are three numbers (number of vesicles, release probability, and quantal size). Turning biological constraints into constraints on the variance, as is done in the paper, seems somewhat arbitrary. This by no means invalidates the results, but it means that future experimental tests of their model will be somewhat nuanced.

      Agreed. There are two points to make here.

      First, the mean and variance are far more experimentally accessible than n, p and q. The EPSP mean and variance is measured directly in paired-patch experiments, whereas getting n, p and q either requires far more extensive experimentation, or making strong assumptions. For instance, the data from Ko et al. (2013) gives the EPSP mean and variance, but not (directly) n, p and q. Thus, in some ways, predictions about means and variances are easier to test than predictions about n, p and q.

      That said, we agree that in the absence of an extensive empirical accounting of the energetic costs at the synapse, there is inevitably some arbitrariness as we derive our energetic costs. That was why we considered four potential functional forms for the connection between the variance and energetic cost, which covered a wide range of sensible forms for this energetic cost. Our results were robust to this wide range functional forms, indicating that the patterns we describe are not specifically due to the particular functional form, but arise in many settings where there is an energetic cost for reliable synaptic transmission.

      (2) The prediction that the learning rate should increase with variability relies on an optimization scheme in which the learning rate is scaled by the inverse of the magnitude of the gradients (Eq. 7). This seems like an extra assumption; the energy efficiency framework by itself does not predict that the learning rate should increase with variability. Further work will be needed to disentangle the assumption about the optimization scheme from the energy efficiency framework.

      Agreed. The assumption that learning rates scale with synapse importance is separate. However, it is highly plausible as almost all modern state-of-the-art deep learning training runs use such an optimization scheme, as in practice it learns far faster than other older schemes. We have added a sentence to the main text (line 221), indicating that this is ultimately an assumption.

      Major

      (1) The correspondence between the entropy term in the variational inference description and the reliability cost in the energetic description is a bit loose. Indeed, the entropy term scales as −log(σ) while reliability cost scales as σ−ρ. While the authors do make the point that σ−ρ upper bounds −log(σ) (up to some constant), those two cost terms are different. This raises two important questions:

      a. Is this difference important, i.e. are there scenarios for which the two frameworks would have different predictions due to their different cost functions?

      b. Alternatively, is there a way to make the two frameworks identical (e.g. by choosing a proposal distribution Q(w) different from a Gaussian distribution (and tuneable by a free parameter that could be related to ρ) and therefore giving rise to an entropy term consistent with the reliability cost of the energy efficiency framework)?

      To answer b first, there is no natural way to make the two frameworks identical (unless we assume the reliability cost is proportional to log_σsyn_, and we don’t think there’s a biophysical mechanism that would give rise to such a cost). Now, to answer a, in Fig. 7 we extensively assessed the differences between the energy efficient σsyn and the Bayesian σpost. In Fig.7bc, we find that σsyn and σpost are positively correlated in all models. This positive correlation indicates that the qualitative predictions made by the two frameworks (Bayesian inference and energy efficiency) are likely to be very similar. Importantly though, there are systematic differences highlighted by Fig. 7ab. Specifically, the energy efficient σsyn tends to vary less than the Bayesian σpost. This appears in Fig. 7b which shows the relationship between σsyn (on the y-axis) and σpost (on the x-axis). Specifically, this plot has a slope that is smaller than one for all our models of the biophysical cost. Further, the pattern also appears in the covariance ellipses in Fig. 7a, in that the Bayesian covariance ellipses tend to be long and thin, while the energy efficient covariance ellipsis are rounder. Critically though both covariance ellipses show the same pattern in that there is more noise along less important directions (as measured by the Hessian).

      We have added a sentence (line 273) noting that the search for a theoretical link is motivated by our observations in Fig. 7 of a strong, but not perfect link between the pattern of variability predicted by Bayesian and energy-efficient synapses.

      (2) Even though I appreciate the effort of the authors to look for experimental evidence, I still find that the experimental support (displayed in Fig. 6) is moderate for three reasons.

      a. First, the experimental and simulation results are not displayed in a consistent way. Indeed, Fig 6a displays the relative weight change |Dw|/w as a function of the normalised variability σ_2/|_µ| in experiments whereas the simulation results in Fig 5c display the variance σ_2 as a function of the learning rate. Also, Fig 6b displays the normalised variability _σ_2/|_µ| as a function of the input rate whereas Fig 5b displays the variance _σ_2 as a function of the input rate. As a consequence the comparison between experimental and simulation results is difficult.

      b. Secondly, the actual power-law exponents in the experiments (see Fig 6a resp. 6b) should be compared to the power-law exponents obtained in simulation (see Fig 5c resp. Fig 5b). The difficulty relies here on the fact that the power-law exponents obtained in the simulations directly depend on the (free) parameter ρ. So far the authors precisely avoided committing to a specific ρ, but rather argued that different biophysical mechanisms lead to different reliability exponents ρ. Therefore, since there are many possible exponents ρ (and consequently many possible power-law exponents in simulation results in Fig 5), it is likely that one of them will match the experimental data. For the argument to be stronger, one would need to argue which synaptic mechanism is dominating and therefore come up with a single prediction that can be falsified experimentally (see also point 4 below).

      c, Finally, the experimental data presented in Fig6 are still “clouds of points". A coefficient of r \= 0_.52 (in Fig 6a) is moderate evidence while the coefficient of _r \= −0_._26 (in Fig 6b) is weak evidence.

      The key thing to remember is that our paper is not about whether synapses are “really" Bayesian or energy efficient (or both/neither). Instead, the key point of our paper, as expressed in the title, is to show that the experimental predictions of Bayesian synapses are very similar to the predictions from energy efficient synapses. And therefore energy efficient synapses are very difficult to distinguish experimentally from Bayesian synapses. In that context, the two plots in Fig. 6 are not really intended to present evidence in favour of the energy efficiency / Bayesian synapses. In fact, Fig. 6 isn’t meant to constitute a contribution of the paper at all, instead, Fig. 6 serves merely as illustrations of the kinds of experimental result that have (Aitchison et al. 2021) or might (Schug et al. 2021) be used to support Bayesian synapses. As such, Fig. 6 serves merely as a jumping-off point for discussing how very similar results might equally arise out of Bayesian and energy-efficiency viewpoints.

      We have modified our description of Fig. 6 to further re-emphasise that the panels in Fig. 6 is not our contribution, but is taken directly from Schug et al. 2021 and Aitchison et al. 2021 (we have also modified Fig 6 to be precisely what was plotted in Schug et al. 2021, again to re-emphasise this point). Further, we have modified the presentation to emphasise that these plots serve merely as jumping off points to discuss the kinds of predictions that we might consider for Bayesian and energy efficient synapses.

      This is important, because we would argue that the “strength of support" should be assessed for our key claim, made in the title, that “Signatures of Bayesian inference emerge from energy efficient synapses".

      a) To emphasise that these are previously published results, we have chosen axes to matchthose used in the original work (Aitchison et al. 2021) and (Schug et al. 2021).

      b) We agree that a close match between power-law exponents would constitute strong evidencefor energy-efficiency / Bayesian inference, and might even allow us to distinguish them. We did consider such a comparison, but found it was difficult for two reasons. First, while the confidence intervals on the slopes exclude zero, they are pretty broad. Secondly, while the slopes in a one-layer network are consistent and match theory (Appendix 5) the slopes in deeper networks are far more inconsistent. This is likely to be due to a number of factors such as details of the optimization algorithm and initialization. Critically, if details of the optimization algorithm matter in simulation, they may also matter in the brain. Therefore, it is not clear to us that a comparison of the actual slopes is can be relied upon.

      To reiterate, the point of our article is not to make judgements about the strength ofevidence in previously published work, but to argue that Bayesian and energy efficient synapses are difficult to distinguish experimentally as they produce similar predictions. That said, it is very difficult to make blanket statements about the strength of evidence for an effect based merely on a correlation coefficient. It is perfectly possible to have moderate correlation coefficients along with very strong evidence of an effect (and e.g. very strong p-values), e.g. if there is a lot of data. Likewise, it is possible to have a very large correlation coefficient along with weak evidence of an effect (e.g. if we only have three or four datapoints, which happen to lie in a straight line). A small correlation coefficient is much more closely related to the effect-size. Specifically, the effect-size, relative to the “noise", which usually arises from unmeasured factors of variation. Here, we know there are many, many unmeasured factors of variation, so even in the case that synapses are really Bayesian / energy-efficient, the best we can hope for is low correlation coefficients

      As mentioned in the public review, a weakness in the paper is the derivation of the constraints on σi given the biophysical costs, for two reasons.

      a.First, it seemed a bit arbitrary whether you hold n fixed or p fixed.

      b.Second, at central synapses, n is usually small – possibly even usually 1: REF(Synaptic vesicles transiently dock to refill release sites, Nature Neuroscience 23:1329-1338, 2020); REF(The ubiquitous nature of multivesicular release Trends Neurosci. 38:428-438, 2015). Fixing n would radically change your cost function. Possibly you can get around this because when two neurons are connected there are multiple contacts (and so, effectively, reasonably large n). It seems like this is worth discussing.

      a) Ultimately, we believe that the “real” biological cost function is very complex, and most likely cannot be written down in a simple functional form. Further, we certainly do not have the experimental evidence now, and are unlikely to have experimental evidence for a considerable period into the future to pin down this cost function precisely. In that context, we are forced to resort to two strategies. First, using simplifying assumptions to derive a functional form for the cost (such as holding n or p fixed). Second, considering a wide range of functional forms for the cost, and ensuring our argument works for all of them.

      b) We appreciate the suggestion that the number of connections could be used as a surrogate where synapses have only a single release site. As you suggest we can propose an alternative model for this case where n represents the number of connections between neurons. We have added this alternative interpretation to our introduction of the quantal model under title “Biophysical costs". For a fixed PSP mean we could either have many connections with small vesicles or less connections with larger vesicles. Similarly for the actin cost we would certainly require more actin if the number of connections were increased.

      Minor

      (1) A few additional references could further strengthen some claims of the paper:

      Davis, Graeme W., and Martin Muller. “Homeostatic Control of Presynaptic Neurotransmitter Release." Annual Review of Physiology 77, no. 1 (February 10, 2015): 251-70. https://doi.org/10.1146/annurev-physiol-021014-071740. This paper provides elegant experimental support for the claim (in line 538 now 583) that µ is kept constant and q acts as a compensatory variable.

      Jegminat, Jannes, Simone Carlo Surace, and Jean-Pascal Pfister. “Learning as Filtering: Implications for Spike-Based Plasticity." Edited by Blake A Richards. PLOS Computational Biology 18, no. 2 (February 23, 2022): e1009721. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1009721.

      This paper also showed that a lower uncertainty implies a lower learning rate (see e.g. in line 232), but in the context of spiking neurons.

      Figure 1 of the the first suggested paper indeed shows that quantal size is a candidate for homeostatic scaling (fixing µ). This review also references lots of further evidence of quantal scaling and evidence for both presynaptic and postsynaptic scaling of q leaving space for speculation on whether vesicle radius or postsynaptic receptor number is the source of a compensatory q. On line 583 we have added a few lines pointing to the suggested review paper.

      The second reference demonstrates Bayesian plasticity in the context of STDP, proposing learning rates tuned to the covariance in spike timing. We have added this as extra support for assuming an optimisation scheme that tunes learning rates to synapse importance and synapse variability (line 232).

      In the numerical simulations, the reliability cost is implemented with a single power-law expression (reliability cost ). However, in principle, all the reliability costs will play in conjunction, i.e. reliability cost . While I do recognise that it may be difficult to estimate the biophysical values of the various ci, it might be still relevant to comment on this.

      Agreed. Limitations in the literature meant that we could only form a cursory review of the relative scale of each cost using estimates by Atwell, (2001), Engl, (2015). On line 135 we have added a paragraph explaining the rationale for considering each cost independently.

      (3) In Eq. 8: σ_2 doesn’t depend on variability in _q, which would add another term; barring algebra mistakes, it’s . It seems worth mentioning why you didn’t include it. Can you argue that it’s a small effect?

      Agreed. Ultimately, we dropped this term because we expected it to be small relative to variability in vesicle release, and because it would be difficult to quantify In practice, the variability is believed to be contributed mostly by variability in vesicle release. The primary evidence for this is histograms of EPSP amplitudes which show classic multi-peak structure, corresponding to one, two three etc. EPSPs. Examples of these plots include:

      - “The end-plate potential in mammalian muscle”, Boyd and Martin (1956); Fig. 8.

      - “Structure and function of a neocortical synapse”, Holler-Rickauer et al. (2019); Extended Figure 5.

      (3) On pg. 7 now pg. 8, when the Hessian is introduced, why not say what it is? Or at least the diagonal elements, for which you just sum up the squared activity. That will make it much less mysterious. Or are we relying too much on the linear model given in App 2? If so, you should tell us how the Hessian was calculated in general. Probably in an appendix.

      With the intention of maintaining the interest of a wide audience we made the decision to avoid a mathematical definition of the Hessian, opting instead for a written definition i.e. line 192 - “Hii; the second derivatives of the objective with respect to wi.” and later on a schematic (Fig. 4) for how the second derivative can be understood as a measure of curvature and synapse importance. Nonetheless, this review point has made us aware that the estimated Hessian values plotted in Fig. 5a have been insufficiently explained so we have added a reference on line 197 to the appendix section where we show how we estimated the diagonal values of the Hessian.

      (4) Fig. 5: assuming we understand things correctly, Hessian ∝ |x|2. Why also plot σ_2 versus |_x|? Or are we getting the Hessian wrong?

      The Hessian is proportional to . If you assume that time steps are small and neurons spike, then , and . it is difficult to say what timestep is relevant in practice.

      (5) To get Fig. 6a, did you start with Fig. Appendix 1-figure 4 from Schug et al, and then use , drop the q, and put 1 − p on the x-axis? Either way, you should provide details about where this came from. It could be in Methods.

      We have modified Fig. 6 to use the same axes as in the original papers.

      (6) Lines 190-3: “The relationship between input firing rate and synaptic variability was first observed by Aitchison et al. (2021) using data from Ko et al. (2013) (Fig. 6a). The relationship between learning rate and synaptic variability was first observed by Schug et al. (2021), using data from Sjostrom et al. (2003) as processed by Costa et al. (2017) (Fig. 6b)." We believer 6a and 6b should be interchanged in that sentence.

      Thank you. We have switched the text appropriately.

      (7) What is posterior variance? This seems kind of important.

      This refers to the “posterior variance" obtained using a Bayesian interpretation of the problem of obtaining good synaptic weights (Aitchison et al. 2021). In our particular setting, we estimate posterior variances by setting up the problem as variational inference: see Appendix 4 and 5, which is now referred to in line 390.

      (8) Lines 244-5: “we derived the relationships between the optimized noise, σi and the posterior variable, σpost as a function of ρ (Fig. 7b;) and as a function of c (Fig. 7c)." You should tell the reader where you derived this. Which is Eq. 68c now 54c. Except you didn’t actually derive it; you just wrote it down. And since we don’t know what posterior variance is, we couldn’t figure it out.

      If H is the Hessian of the log-likelihood, and if the prior is negligable relative to the the likelihood, then we get Eq. 69c. We have added a note on this point to the text.

      (9) We believe Fig. 7a shows an example pair of synapses. Is this typical? And what about Figs. 7b and c. Also an example pair? Or averages? It would be helpful to make all this clear to the reader.

      Fig. 7a shows an illustrative pair of synapses, chosen to best display the relative patterns of variability under energy efficient and Bayesian synapses. We have noted this point in the legend for Fig. 7. Fig. 7bc show analytic relationships between energy efficient and Bayesian synapses, so each line shows a whole continuum of synapses(we have deleted the misleading points at the ends of the lines in Fig. 7bc).

      (10)  The y-axis of Fig 6a refers to the synaptic weight as w while the x-axis refers to the mean synaptic weight as mu. Shouldn’t it be harmonised? It would be particularly nice if both were divided by µ, because then the link to Fig. 5c would be more clear.

      We have changed the y-axis label of Fig. 6a from w to µ. Regarding the normalised variance, we did try this but our Gaussian posteriors allowed the mean to become small in our simulations, giving a very high normalised variance. To remedy this we would likely need to assume a log- posterior, but this was out of scope for the present work.

      (11) Line 250 (now line 281): “Finally, in the Appendix". Please tell us which Appendix. Also, why not point out here that the bound is tightest at small ρ?

      We have added the reference to the the section of the appendix with the derivation of the biological cost as a bound on the ELBO. We have also referenced the equation that gives the limit of the biological cost as ρ tends to zero.

      (12) When symbols appear that previously appeared more than about two paragraphs ago, please tell us where they came from. For instance, we spent a lot of time hunting for ηi. And below we’ll complain about undefined symbols. Which might mean we just missed them; if you told us where they were, that problem would be eliminated.

      We have added extra references for the symbols in the text following Eq. 69.

      (13) Line 564, typo (we think): should be σ−2.

      Good spot. This has been fixed.

      (14)  A bit out of order, but we don’t think you ever say explicitly that r is the radius of a vesicle. You do indicate it in Fig. 1, but you should say it in the main text as well.

      We have added a note on this to the legend in Fig. 1.

      (15) Eq. 14: presumably there’s a cost only if the vesicle is outside the synapse? Probably worth saying, since it’s not clear from the mechanism.

      Looking at Pulido and Ryan (2021) carefully, it is clear that they are referring to a cost for vesicles inside the presynaptic side of the synapse. (Importantly, vesciles don’t really exist outside the synapse; during the release process, the vesicle membrane becomes part of the cell membrane, and the contents of the vesicle is ejected into the synaptic cleft).

      (16) App. 2: why solve for mu, and why compute the trace of the Hessian? Not that it hurts, but things are sort of complicated, and the fewer side points the better.

      Agreed, we have removed the solution for μ, and the trace, and generally rewritten Appendix 2 to clarify definitions, the Hessian etc.

      (17) Eq. 35: we believe you need a minus sign on one side of the equation. And we don’t believe you defined p(d|w). Also, are you assuming g = partial log p(d|w)/partial w? This should be stated, along with its implications. And presumably, it’s not really true; people just postulate that p(d|w) ∝ exp(−log_loss_)?

      We have replaced p(d|w) with p(y, x|w), and we replaced “overall cost” with log P(y|w, x). Yes, we are also postulating that p(y|w, x) ∝ exp(−log loss), though in our case that does make sense as it corresonds to a squared loss.

      As regards the minus sign, in the orignal manuscript, we had the second derivative of the cost. There is no minus sign for the cost, as the Hessian of the cost at the mode is positive semi-definite. However, once we write the expression in terms of a log-likelihood, we do need a minus sign (as the Hessian of the log-likelihood at a mode is negative semi-definite).

      (18) Eq. 47 now Eq. 44: first mention of CBi;i?

      We have added a note describing CB around these equations.

      (19) The “where" doesn’t make sense for Eqs. 49 and 50; those are new definitions.

      We have modified the introduction of these equations to avoid the problematic “where”.

      (20) Eq. 57 and 58 are really one equation. More importantly: where does Eq. 58 come from? Is this the H that was defined previously? Either way, you should make that clear.

      We have removed the problematic additional equation line number, and added a reference to where H comes from.

      (21) In Eq. 59 now Eq. 60 aren’t you taking the trace of a scalar? Seems like you could skip this.

      We have deleted this derivation, as it repeats material from the new Appendix 2.

      (22) Eq. 66 is exactly the same as Eq. 32. Which is a bit disconcerting. Are they different derivations of the same quantity? You should comment on this.

      We have deleted lots of the stuff in Appendix 5 as, we agree, it repeats material from Appendix 2 (which has been rewritten and considerably clarified).

      (23) Eq. 68 now 54, left column: please derive. we got:

      gai = gradient for weight i on trial

      where the second equality came from Eq. 20. Thus

      Is that correct? If so, it’s a lot to expect of the reader. Either way, a derivation would

      be helpful.

      We agree it was unnecessary and overly complex, so we have deleted it.

      (24) App 5–Figure 2: presumably the data for panel b came from Fig. 6a, with the learning rate set to Δw/w? And the data for panel c from Fig. 6b? This (or the correct statement, if this is wrong) should be mentioned.

      Yes, the data for panel c came from Fig. 6b. We have deleted the data in panel b, as there are some subtleties in interpretation of the learning rates in these settings.

      (25) line 952 now 946: typo, “and the from".

      Corrected to “and from".

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Response to the Editors’ Comments

      Thankyou for this summary of the reviews and recommendations for corrections. We respond to each in turn, and have documented each correction with specific examples contained within our response to reviewers below.

      ‘They all recommend to clarify the link between hypotheses and analyses, ground them more clearly in, and conduct critical comparisons with existing literature, and address a potential multiple comparison problem.’

      We have restructured our introduction to include the relevant literature outlined by the reviewers, and to be more clearly ground the goals of our model and broader analysis. We have additionally corrected for multiple comparisons within our exploratory associative analyses. We have additionaly sign posted exploratory tests more clearly.

      ‘Furthermore, R1 also recommends to include a formal external validation of how the model parameters relate to participant behaviour, to correct an unjustified claim of causality between childhood adversity and separation of self, and to clarify role of therapy received by patients.’

      We have now tempered our language in the abstract which unintentionally implied causality in the associative analysis between childhood trauma and other-to-self generalisation. To note, in the sense that our models provide causal explanations for behaviour across all three phases of the task, we argue that our model comparison provides some causal evidence for algorithmic biases within the BPD phenotype. We have included further details of the exclusion and inclusion criteria of the BPD participants within the methods.

      R2 specifically recommends to clarify, in the introduction, the specific aim of the paper, what is known already, and the approach to addressing it.’

      We have more thoroughly outlined the current state of the art concerning behavioural and computational approaches to self insertion and social contagion, in health and within BPD. We have linked these more clearly to the aims of the work.

      ‘R2 also makes various additional recommendations regarding clarification of missing information about model comparison, fit statistics and group comparison of parameters from different models.’

      Our model comparison approach and algorithm are outlined within the original paper for Hierarchical Bayesian Model comparison (Piray et al., 2019). We have outlined the concepts of this approach in the methods. We have now additionally improved clarity by placing descriptions of this approach more obviously in the results, and added points of greater detail in the methods, such as which statistics for comparison we extracted on the group and individual level.

      In addition, in response to the need for greater comparison of parameters from different models, we have also hierarchically force-fitted the full suite of models (M1-M4) to all participants. We report all group differences from each model individually – assuming their explanation of the data - in Table S2. We have also demonstrated strong associations between parameters of equivalent meaning from different models to support our claims in Fig S11. Finally, we show minimal distortion to parameter estimates in between-group analysis when models are either fitted hierarchically to the entire population, or group wise (Figure S10).

      ‘R3 additionally recommends to clarify the clinical and cognitive process relevance of the experiment, and to consider the importance of the Phase 2 findings.’

      We have now included greater reference to the assumptions in the social value orientation paradigm we use in the introduction. We have also responded to the specific point about the shift in central tendencies in phase 2 from the BPD group, noting that, while BPD participants do indeed get more relatively competitive vs. CON participants, they remain strikingly neutral with respect to the overall statespace. Importantly, model M4 does not preclude more competitive distributions existing.

      ‘Critically, they also share a concern about analyzing parameter estimates fit separately to two groups, when the best-fitting model is not shared. They propose to resolve this by considering a model that can encompass the full dynamics of the entire sample.’

      We have hierarchically force-fitted the full suite of models (M1-M4) to all participants to allow for comparison between parameters within each model assumption. We report all group differences from each model individually – assuming their explanation of the data - in Table S2 and Table S3. We have also demonstrated strong associations between parameters of equivalent meaning from different models to support our claims in Fig S11. We also show minimal distortion to parameter estimates in between-group analysis when models are either fitted hierarchically to the entire population, or group wise (Figure S10).

      Within model M1 and M2, the parameters quantify the degree to which participants believe their partner to be different from themselves. Under M1 and M2 model assumptions, BPD participants have meaningfully larger versus CON (Fig S10), which supports the notion that a new central tendency may be more parsimonious in phase 2 (as in the case of the optimal model for BPD, M4). We also show strong correlations across models between under M1 and M2, and the shift in central tendenices of beliefs between phase 1 and 2 under M3 and M4. This supports our primary comparison, and shows that even under non-dominant model assumptions, parameters demonstrate that BPD participants expect their partner’s relative reward preferences to be vastly different from themselves versus CON.

      ‘A final important point concerns the psychometric individual difference analyses which seem to be conducted on the full sample without considering the group structure.’

      We have now more clearly focused our psychometric analysis. We control for multiple comparisons, and compare parameters across the same model (M3) when assessing the relationship between paranoia, trauma, trait mentalising, and social contagion. We have relegated all other exploratory analyses to the supplementary material and noted where p values survive correction using False Discovery Rate.

      Reviewer 1:

      ‘The manuscript's primary weakness relates to the number of comparisons conducted and a lack of clarity in how those comparisons relate to the authors' hypotheses. The authors specify a primary prediction about disruption to information generalization in social decision making & learning processes, and it is clear from the text how their 4 main models are supposed to test this hypothesis. With regards to any further analyses however (such as the correlations between multiple clinical scales and eight different model parameters, but also individual parameter comparisons between groups), this is less clear. I recommend the authors clearly link each test to a hypothesis by specifying, for each analysis, what their specific expectations for conducted comparisons are, so a reader can assess whether the results are/aren't in line with predictions. The number of conducted tests relating to a specific hypothesis also determines whether multiple comparison corrections are warranted or not. If comparisons are exploratory in nature, this should be explicitly stated.’

      We have now corrected for multiple comparisons when examining the relationship between psychometric findings and parameters, using partial correlations and bootstrapping for robustness. These latter analyses were indeed not preregistered, and so we have more clearly signposted that these tests were exploratory. We chose to focus on the influence of psychometrics of interest on social contagion under model M3 given that this model explained a reasonable minority of behaviour in each group. We have now fully edited this section in the main text in response, and relegated all other correlations to the supplementary materials.

      ‘Furthermore, the authors present some measures for external validation of the models, including comparison between reaction times and belief shifts, and correlations between model predicted accuracy and behavioural accuracy/total scores. However it would be great to see some more formal external validation of how the model parameters relate to participant behaviour, e.g., the correlation between the number of pro-social choices and ß-values, or the correlation between the change in absolute number of pro-social choices and the change in ß. From comparing the behavioural and computational results it looks like they would correlate highly, but it would be nice to see this formally confirmed.’

      We have included this further examination within the Generative Accuracy and Recovery section:

      ‘We also assessed the relationship (Pearson rs) between modelled participant preference parameters in phase 1 and actual choice behaviour: was negatively correlated with prosocial versus competitive choices (r=-0.77, p<0.001) and individualistic versus competitive choices (r=-0.59, p<0.001); was positively correlated with individualistic versus competitive choices (r=0.53, p<0.001) and negatively correlated with prosocial versus individualistic choices (r=-0.69, p<0.001).’

      ‘The statement in the abstract that 'Overall, the findings provide a clear explanation of how self-other generalisation constrains and assists learning, how childhood adversity disrupts this through separation of internalised beliefs' makes an unjustified claim of causality between childhood adversity and separation of self - and other beliefs, although the authors only present correlations. I recommend this should be rephrased to reflect the correlational nature of the results.’

      Sorry – this was unfortunate wording: we did not intend to imply causation with our second clause in the sentence mentioned. We have amended the language to make it clear this relationship is associative:

      ‘Overall, the findings provide a clear explanation of how self-other generalisation constrains and assists learning, how childhood adversity is associated with separation of internalised beliefs, and makes clear causal predictions about the mechanisms of social information generalisation under uncertainty.’

      ‘Currently, from the discussion the findings seem relevant in explaining certain aberrant social learning and -decision making processes in BPD. However, I would like to see a more thorough discussion about the practical relevance of their findings in light of their observation of comparable prediction accuracy between the two groups.’

      We have included a new paragraph in the discussion to address this:

      ‘Notably, despite differing strategies, those with BPD achieved similar accuracy to CON participants in predicting their partners. All participants were more concerned with relative versus absolute reward; only those with BPD changed their strategy based on this focus. Practically this difference in BPD is captured either through disintegrated priors with a new median (M4) or very noisy, but integrated priors over partners (M1) if we assume M1 can account for the full population. In either case, the algorithm underlying the computational goal for BPD participants is far higher in entropy and emphasises a less stable or reliable process of inference. In future work, it would be important to assess this mechanism alongside momentary assessments of mood to understand whether more entropic learning processes contribute to distressing mood fluctuation.’

      ‘Relatedly, the authors mention that a primary focus of mentalization based therapy for BPD is 'restoring a stable sense of self' and 'differentiating the self from the other'. These goals are very reminiscent of the findings of the current study that individuals with BPD show lower uncertainty over their own and relative reward preferences, and that they are less susceptible to social contagion. Could the observed group differences therefore be a result of therapy rather than adverse early life experiences?’

      This is something that we wish to explore in further work. While verbal and model descriptions appear parsimonious, this is not straight forward. As we see, clinical observation and phenomenological dynamics may not necessarily match in an intuitive way to parameters of interest. It may be that compartmentalisation of self and other – as we see in BPD participants within our data – may counter-intuitively express as a less stable self. The evolutionary mechanisms that make social insertion and contagion enduring may also be the same that foster trust and learning.

      ‘Regarding partner similarity: It was unclear to me why the authors chose partners that were 50% similar when it would be at least equally interesting to investigate self-insertion and social contagion with those that are more than 50% different to ourselves? Do the authors have any assumptions or even data that shows the results still hold for situations with lower than 50% similarity?’

      While our task algorithm had a high probability to match individuals who were approximately 50% different with respect to their observed behaviour, there was variation either side of this value. The value of 50% median difference was chosen for two reasons: 1. We wanted to ensure participants had to learn about their partner to some degree relative to their own preferences and 2. we did not want to induce extreme over or under familiarity given the (now replicated) relationship between participant-partner similarity and intentional attributions (see below). Nevertheless, we did have some variation around the 50% median. Figure 3A in the top left panel demonstrates this fluctuation in participant-partner similarity and the figure legend further described this distribution (mean = 49%, sd = 12%). In future work we want to more closely manipulate the median similarity between participants and partners to understand how this facilitates or inhibits learning and generalisation.

      There is some analysis of the relationship between degrees of similiarity and behaviour. In the third paragraph of page 15 we report the influence of participant-partner similarity on reaction times. In prior work (Barnby et al., 2022; Cognition) we had shown that similarity was associated with reduced attributions of harm about a partner, irrespective of their true parameters (e.g. whether they were prosocial/competitive). We replicate this previous finding with a double dissociation illustrated in Figure 4, showing that greater discrepancies in participant-partner prosociality increases explicit harmful intent attributions (but not self-interest), and discrepancies in participant-partner individualism reduces explicit self-interest attributions (but not harmful intent). We have made these clearer in our results structure, and included FDR correction values for multiple comparisons.

      The methods section is rather dense and at least I found it difficult to keep track of the many different findings. I recommend the authors reduce the density by moving some of the secondary analyses in the supplementary materials, or alternatively, to provide an overall summary of all presented findings at the end of the Results section.

      We have now moved several of our exploratory findings into the supplementary materials, noteably the analysis of participant-partner similarity on reaction times (Fig S9), as well as the uncorrected correlation between parameters (Fig S7).

      Fig 2C) and Discussion p. 21: What do the authors mean by 'more sensitive updates'? more sensitive to what?

      We have now edited the wording to specify ‘more belief updating’ rather than ‘sensitive’ to be clearer in our language.

      P14 bottom: please specify what is meant by axial differences.

      We have changed this to ‘preference type’ rather than using the term ‘axial’.

      It may be helpful to have Supplementary Figure 1 in the main text.

      Thank you for this suggestion. Given the volume of information in the main text we hope that it is acceptable for Figure S1 to remain in the supplementary materials.

      Figure 3D bottom panel: what is the difference between left and right plots? Should one of them be alpha not beta?

      The left and right plots are of the change in standard deviation (left) and central tendency (right) of participant preference change between phase 1 and 3. This is currently noted in the figure legend, but we had added some text to be clearer that this is over prosocial-competitive beliefs specifically. We chose to use this belief as an example given the centrality of prosocial-comeptitive beliefs in the learning process in Figure 2. We also noticed a small labelling error in the bottom panels of 3D which should have noted that each plot was either with respect to the precision or mean-shift in beliefs during phase 3.

      ‘The relationship between uncertainty over the self and uncertainty over the other with respect to the change in the precision (left) and median-shift (right) in phase 3 prosocial-competitive beliefs .’

      Supplementary Figure 4: The prior presented does not look neutral to me, but rather right-leaning, so competitive, and therefore does indeed look like it was influenced by the self-model? If I am mistaken please could the authors explain why.

      This example distribution is taken from a single BPD participant. In this case, indeed, the prior is somewhat right-shifted. However, on a group level, priors over the partner were closely centred around 0 (see reported statistics in paragraph 2 under the heading ‘Phase 2 – BPD Participants Use Disintegrated and Neutral Priors). However, we understand how this may come across as misleading. For clarity we have expanded upon Figure S4 to include the phase 1 and prior phase 2 distributions for the entire BPD population for both prosocial and individualistic beliefs. This further demonstrates that those with BPD held surprisingly neutral beliefs over the expectations about their partners’ prosociality, but had minor shifts between their own individualistic preferences and the expected individualistic preferences of their partners. This is also visible in Figure S2.

      Reviewer 2:

      ‘There are two major weaknesses. First, the paper lacks focus and clarity. The introduction is rather vague and, after reading it, I remained confused about the paper's aims. Rather than relying on specific predictions, the analysis is exploratory. This implies that it is hard to keep track, and to understand the significance, of the many findings that are reported.’

      Thank you for this opportunity to be clearer in our framing of the paper. While the model makes specific causal predictions with respect to behavioural dynamics conditional on algorithmic differences, our other analyses were indeed exploratory. We did not preregister this work but now given the intriguing findings we intent to preregister our future analyses.

      We have made our introduction clearer with respect to the aims of the paper:

      ‘Our present work sought to achieve two primary goals: 1. Extend prior causal computational theories to formalise the interrelation between self-insertion and social contagion within an economic paradigm, the Intentions Game and 2., Test how a diagnosis of BPD may relate to deficits in these forms of generalisation. We propose a computational theory with testable predictions to begin addressing this question. To foreshadow our results, we found that healthy participants employ a mixed process of self-insertion and contagion to predict and align with the beliefs of their partners. In contrast, individuals with BPD exhibit distinct, disintegrated representations of self and other, despite showing similar average accuracy in their learning about partners. Our model and data suggest that the previously observed computational characteristics in BPD, such as reduced self-anchoring during ambiguous learning and a relative impermeability of the self, arise from the failure of information about others to transfer to and inform the self. By integrating separate computational findings, we provide a foundational model and a concise, dynamic paradigm to investigate uncertainty, generalization, and regulation in social interactions.’

      ‘Second, although the computational approach employed is clever and sophisticated, there is important information missing about model comparison which ultimately makes some of the results hard to assess from the perspective of the reader.’

      Our model comparison employed what is state of the art random-effects Bayesian model comparison (Piray et al., 2019; PLOS Comp. Biol.). It initially fits each individual to each model using Laplace approximation, and subsequently ‘races’ each model against each other on the group level and individual level through hierarchical constraints and random-effect considerations. We included this in the methods but have now expanded on the descrpition we used to compare models:

      In the results -

      ‘All computational models were fitted using a Hierarchical Bayesian Inference (HBI) algorithm which allows hierarchical parameter estimation while assuming random effects for group and individual model responsibility (Piray et al., 2019; see Methods for more information). We report individual and group-level model responsibility, in addition to protected exceedance probabilities between-groups to assess model dominance.’

      We added to our existing description in the methods –

      ‘All computational models were fitted using a Hierarchical Bayesian Inference (HBI) algorithm which allows hierarchical parameter estimation while assuming random effects for group and individual model responsibility (Piray et al., 2019). During fitting we added a small noise floor to distributions (2.22e<sup>-16</sup>) before normalisation for numerical stability. Parameters were estimated using the HBI in untransformed space drawing from broad priors (μM\=0, σ<sup>2</sup><sub>M</sub> = 6.5; where M\={M1, M2, M3, M4}). This process was run independently for each group. Parameters were transformed into model-relevant space for analysis. All models and hierarchical fitting was implemented in Matlab (Version R2022B). All other analyses were conducted in R (version 4.3.3; arm64 build) running on Mac OS (Ventura 13.0). We extracted individual and group level responsibilities, as well as the protected exceedance probability to assess model dominance per group.’

      (1) P3, third paragraph: please define self-insertion

      We have now more clearly defined this in the prior paragraph when introducing concepts.

      ‘To reduce uncertainty about others, theories of the relational self (Anderson & Chen, 2002) suggest that people have availble to them an extensive and well-grounded representation of themselves, leading to a readily accessible initial belief (Allport, 1924; Kreuger & Clement, 1994) that can be projected or integrated when learning about others (self-insertion).’

      (2) Introduction: the specific aim of the paper should be clarified - at the moment, it is rather vague. The authors write: "However, critical questions remain: How do humans adjudicate between self-insertion and contagion during interaction to manage interpersonal generalization? Does the uncertainty in self-other beliefs affect their generalizability? How can disruptions in interpersonal exchange during sensitive developmental periods (e.g., childhood maltreatment) inform models of psychiatric disorders?". Which of these questions is the focus of the paper? And how does the paper aim at addressing it?

      (3) Relatedly, from the introduction it is not clear whether the goal is to develop a theory of self-insertion and social contagion and test it empirically, or whether it is to study these processes in BPD, or both (or something else). Clarifying which specific question(s) is addressed is important (also clarifying what we already know about that specific question, and how the paper aims at elucidating that specific question).

      We have now included our specific aims of the paper. We note this in the above response to the reviwers general comments.

      (4) "Computational models have probed social processes in BPD, linking the BPD phenotype to a potential over-reliance on social versus internal cues (Henco et al., 2020), 'splitting' of social latent states that encode beliefs about others (Story et al., 2023), negative appraisal of interpersonal experiences with heightened self-blame (Mancinelli et al., 2024), inaccurate inferences about others' irritability (Hula et al., 2018), and reduced belief adaptation in social learning contexts (Siegel et al., 2020). Previous studies have typically overlooked how self and other are represented in tandem, prompting further investigation into why any of these BPD phenotypes manifest." Not clear what the link between the first and second sentence is. Does it mean that previous computational models have focused exclusively on how other people are represented in BPD, and not on how the self is represented? Please spell this out.

      Thank you for the opportunity to be clearer in our language. We have now spelled out our point more precisely, and included some extra relevant literature helpfully pointed out by another reviewer.

      ‘Computational models have probed social processes in BPD, although almost exclusively during observational learning. The BPD phenotype has been associated with a potential over-reliance on social versus internal cues (Henco et al., 2020), ‘splitting’ of social latent states that encode beliefs about others (Story et al., 2023), negative appraisal of interpersonal experiences with heightened self-blame (Mancinelli et al., 2024), inaccurate inferences about others’ irritability (Hula et al., 2018), and reduced belief adaptation in social learning contexts (Siegel et al., 2020). Associative models have also been adapted to characterize  ‘leaky’ self-other reinforcement learning (Ereira et al., 2018), finding that those with BPD overgeneralize (leak updates) about themselves to others (Story et al., 2024). Altogether, there is currently a gap in the direct causal link between insertion, contagion, and learning (in)stability.’

      (5) P5, first paragraph. The description of the task used in phase 1 should be more detailed. The essential information for understanding the task is missing.

      We have updated this section to point toward Figure 1 and the Methods where the details of the task are more clearly outlined. We hope that it is acceptable not to explain the full task at this point for brevity and to not interrupt the flow of the results.

      “Detailed descriptions of the task can be found in the methods section and Figure 1.’

      (6) P5, second paragraph: briefly state how the Psychometric data were acquired (e.g., self-report).

      We have now clarified this in the text.

      ‘All participants also self-reported their trait paranoia, childhood trauma, trust beliefs, and trait mentalizing (see methods).’

      (7) "For example, a participant could make prosocial (self=5; other=5) versus individualistic (self=10; other=5) choices, or prosocial (self=10; other=10) versus competitive (self=10; other=5) choices". Not sure what criteria are used for distinguishing between individualistic and competitive - they look the same?

      Sorry. This paragraph was not clear that the issue is that the interpretation of the choice depends on both members of the pair of options. Here, in one pair {(self=5,other=5) vs (self=10,other=5)}, it is highly pro-social for the self to choose (5,5), sacrificing 5 points for the sake of equality. In the second pair {(self=10,other=10) vs (self=10,other=5)}, it is highly competitive to choose (10,5), denying the other 5 points at no benefit to the self. We have clarified this:

      ‘We analyzed the ‘types’ of choices participants made in each phase (Supplementary Table 1). The interpretation of a participant’s choice depends on both values in a choice. For example, a participant could make prosocial (self=5; other=5) versus individualistic (self=10; other=5) choices, or prosocial (self=10; other=10) versus competitive (self=10; other=5) choices. There were 12 of each pair in phases 1 and 3 (individualistic vs. prosocial; prosocial vs. competitive; individualistic vs. competitive).’  

      (8) "In phase 1, both CON and BPD participants made prosocial choices over competitive choices with similar frequency (CON=9.67[3.62]; BPD=9.60[3.57])" please report t-test - the same applies also various times below.

      We have now included the t test statistics with each instance.

      ‘In phase 3, both CON and BPD participants continued to make equally frequent prosocial versus competitive choices (CON=9.15[3.91]; BPD=9.38[3.31]; t=-0.54, p=0.59); CON participants continued to make significantly less prosocial versus individualistic choices (CON=2.03[3.45]; BPD=3.78 [4.16]; t=2.31, p=0.02). Both groups chose equally frequent individualistic versus competitive choices (CON=10.91[2.40]; BPD=10.18[2.72]; t=-0.49, p=0.62).’

      (9) P 9: "Models M2 and M3 allow for either self-insertion or social contagion to occur independently" what's the difference between M2 and M3?

      Model M2 hypothesises that participants use their own self representation as priors when learning about the other in phase 2, but are not influenced by their partner. M3 hypothesises that participants form an uncoupled prior (no self-insertion) about their partner in phase 2, and their choices in phase 3 are influenced by observing their partner in phase 2 (social contagion). In Figure 1 we illustrate the difference between M2 and M3. In Table 1 we specifically report the parameterisation differences between M2 and M3. We have also now included a correlational analysis of parameters between models to demonstrate the relationship between model parameters of equivalent value between models (Fig S11). We have also force fitted all models (M1-M4) to the data independently and reported group differences within each (see Table S2 and Table S3).

      (10) P 9, last paragraph: I did not understand the description of the Beta model.

      The beta model is outlined in detail in Table 1. We have also clarified the description of the beta model on page 9:

      ‘The ‘Beta model’ is equivalent to M1 in its causal architecture (both self-insertion and social contagion are hypothesized to occur) but differs in richness: it accommodates the possibility that participants might only consider a single dimension of relative reward allocation, which is typically emphasized in previous studies (e.g., Hula et al., 2018).’

      (11) P 9: I wonder whether one could think about more intuitive labels for the models, rather than M1, M2 etc.. This is just a suggestion, as I am not sure a short label would be feasible here.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We apologise that it is not very intitutive. The problem is that given the various terms we use to explain the different processes of generalisation that might occur between self and other, and given that each model is a different combination of each, we felt that numbering them was a lesser evil. We hope that the reader will be able to reference both Figure 1 and Table 1 to get a good feel for how the models and their causal implications differ.

      (12) Model comparison: the information about what was done for model comparison is scant, and little about fit statistics is reported. At the moment, it is hard for a reader to assess the results of the model comparison analysis.

      Model comparison and fitting was conducted using simultaneous hierarchical fitting and random-effects comparison. This is employed through the HBI package (Piray et al., 2019) where the assumptions and fitting proceedures are outlined in great detail. In short, our comparison allows for individual and group-level hierarchical fitting and comparison. This overcomes the issue of interdependence between and within model fitting within a population, which is often estimated separately.

      We have outlined this in the methods, although appreciate we do not touch upon it until the reader reaches that point. We have added a clarification statement on page 9 to rectify this:

      ‘All computational models were fitted using a Hierarchical Bayesian Inference (HBI) algorithm which allows hierarchical parameter estimation while assuming random effects for group and individual model responsibility (Piray et al., 2019; see Methods for more information). We report individual and group-level model responsibility, in addition to protected exceedance probabilities between-groups to assess model dominance.’

      (13) P 14, first paragraph: "BPD participants were also more certain about both types of preference" what are the two types of preferences?

      The two types of preferences are relative (prosocial-competitive) and absolute (individualistic) reward utility. These are expressed as b and a respectively. We have expanded the sentence in question to make this clearer:

      ‘BPD participants were also more certain about both self-preferences for absolute and relative reward ( = -0.89, 95%HDI: -1.01, -0.75; = -0.32, 95%HDI: -0.60, -0.04) versus CON participants (Figure 2B).’

      (14) "Parameter Associations with Reported Trauma, Paranoia, and Attributed Intent" the results reported here are intriguing, but not fully convincing as there is the problem of multiple comparisons. The combinations between parameters and scales are rather numerous. I suggest to correct for multiple comparisons and to flag only the findings that survive correction.

      We have now corrected this and controlled for multiple comparisons through partial correlation analysis, bootstrapping assessment for robustness, permutation testing, and False Detection Rate correction. We only report those that survive bootstrapping and permutation testing, reporting both corrected (p[fdr]) and uncorrected (p) significance.

      (15) Results page 14 and page 15. The authors compare the various parameters between groups. I would assume that these parameters come from M1 for controls and from M4 for BDP? Please clarify if this is indeed the case. If it is the case, I am not sure this is appropriate. To my knowledge, it is appropriate to compare parameters between groups only if the same model is fit to both groups. If two different models are fit to each group, then the parameters are not comparable, as the parameter have, so to speak, different "meaning" in two models. Now, I want to stress that my knowledge on this matter may be limited, and that the authors' approach may be sound. However, to be reassured that the approach is indeed sound, I would appreciate a clarification on this point and a reference to relevant sources about this approach.

      This is an important point. First, we confirmed all our main conclusions about parameter differences using the maximal model M1 to fit all the participants. We added Supplementary Table 2 to report the outcome of this analysis. Second, we did the same for parameters across all models M1-M4, fitting each to participants without comparison. This is particularly relevant for M3, since at least a minority of participants of both groups were best explained by this model. We report these analyses in Fig S11:

      Since the M4 is nested within M1, we argue that this comparison is still meaningful, and note explanations in the text for why the effects noted between groups may occur given the differences in their causal meaning, for example in the results under phase 2 analyses:

      ‘Belief updating in phase 2 was less flexible in BPD participants. Median change in beliefs (from priors to posteriors) about a partner’s preferences was lower versus. CON ( = -5.53, 95%HDI: -7.20, -4.00; = -10.02, 95%HDI: -12.81, -7.30). Posterior beliefs about partner were more precise in BPD versus CON ( = -0.94, 95%HDI: -1.50, -0.45;  = -0.70, 95%HDI: -1.20, -0.25).  This is unsurprising given the disintegrated priors of the BPD group in M4, meaning they need to ‘travel less’ in state space. Nevertheless, even under assumptions of M1 and M2 for both groups, BPD showed smaller posteriors median changes versus CON in phase 2 (see Table T2). These results converge to suggest those with BPD form rigid posterior beliefs.’

      (16) "We built and tested a theory of interpersonal generalization in a population of matched participants" this sentence seems to be unwarranted, as there is no theory in the paper (actually, as it is now, the paper looks rather exploratory)

      We thank the reviewer for their perspective. Formal models can be used as a theoretical statement on the casual algorithmic process underlying decision making and choice behaviour; the development of formal models are an essential theoretical tool for precision and falsification (Haslbeck et al., 2022). In this sense, we have built several competing formal theories that test, using casual architectures, whether the latent distribution(s) that generate one’s choices generalise into one’s predictions about another person, and simultaneously whether one’s latent distribution(s) that represent beliefs about another person are used to inform future choices.

      Reviewer 3:

      ‘My broad question about the experiment (in terms of its clinical and cognitive process relevance): Does the task encourage competition or give participants a reason to take advantage of others? I don't think it does, so it would be useful to clarify the normative account for prosociality in the introduction (e.g., some of Robin Dunbar's work).’

      We agree that our paradigm does not encourage competition. We use a reward structure that makes it contingent on participants to overcome a particular threshold before earning rewards, but there is no competitive element to this, in that points earned or not earned by partners have no bearing on the outcomes for the participant. This is important given the consideration of recursive properties that arise through mixed-motive games; we wanted to focus purely on observational learning in phase 2, and repercussion-free choices made by participants in phase 1 and 3, meaning the choices participants, and decisions of a partner, are theoretically in line with self-preferences irrespective of the judgement of others. We have included a clearer statement of the structure of this type of task, and more clearly cited the origin for its structure (Murphy & Ackerman, 2011):

      ‘Our present work sought to achieve two primary goals. 1. Extend prior causal computational theories to formalise and test the interrelation between self-insertion and social contagion on learning and behaviour to better probe interpersonal generalisation in health, and 2., Test whether previous computational findings of social learning changes in BPD can be explained by infractions to self-other generalisation. We accomplish these goals by using a dynamic, sequential social value economic paradigm, the Intentions Game, building upon a Social Value Orientation Framework (Murphy & Ackerman, 2011) that assumes motivational variation in joint reward allocation.’

      Given the introductions structure as it stands, we felt providing another paragraph on the normative assumptions of such a game was outside the scope of this article.

      ‘The finding that individuals with BPD do not engage in self-other generalization on this task of social intentions is novel and potentially clinically relevant. The authors find that BPD participants' tendency to be prosocial when splitting points with a partner does not transfer into their expectations of how a partner will treat them in a task where they are the passive recipient of points chosen by the partner. In the discussion, the authors reasonably focus on model differences between groups (Bayesian model comparison), yet I thought this finding -- BPD participants not assuming prosocial tendencies in phase 2 while CON participant did -- merited greater attention. Although the BPD group was close to 0 on the \beta prior in Phase 2, their difference from CON is still in the direction of being more mistrustful (or at least not assuming prosociality). This may line up with broader clinical literature on mistrustfulness and attributions of malevolence in the BPD literature (e.g., a 1992 paper by Nigg et al. in Journal of Abnormal Psychology). My broad point is to consider further the Phase 2 findings in terms of the clinical interpretation of the shift in \beta relative to controls.’

      This is an important point, that we contextualize within the parameterisation of our utility model. While the shift toward 0 in the BPD participants is indeed more competitive, as the reviewer notes, it is surprisingly centred closely around 0, with only a slight bias to be prosocial (mean = -0.47;  = -6.10, 95%HDI: -7.60, -4.60). Charitably we might argue that BPD participants are expecting more competitive preferences from their partner. However even so, given their variance around their priors in phase 2, they are uncertain or unconfident about this. We take a more conservative approach in the paper and say that given the tight proximity to 0 and the variance of their group priors, they are likely to be ‘hedging their bets’ on whether their partner is going to be prosocial or competitive. While the movement from phase 1 to 2 is indeed in the competitive direction it still lands in neutral territory. Model M4 does not preclude central tendancies at the start of Phase 2 being more in the competitive direction.

      ‘First, the authors note that they have "proposed a theory with testable predictions" (p. 4 but also elsewhere) but they do not state any clear predictions in the introduction, nor do they consider what sort of patterns will be observed in the BPD group in view of extant clinical and computational literature. Rather, the paper seems to be somewhat exploratory, largely looking at group differences (BPD vs. CON) on all of the shared computational parameters and additional indices such as belief updating and reaction times. Given this, I would suggest that the authors make stronger connections between extant research on intention representation in BPD and their framework (model and paradigm). In particular, the authors do not address related findings from Ereira (2020) and Story (2024) finding that in a false belief task that BPD participants *overgeneralize* from self to other. A critical comparison of this work to the present study, including an examination of the two tasks differ in the processes they measure, is important.’

      Thank you for this opportunity to include more of the important work that has preceded the present manuscript. Prior work has tended to focus on either descriptive explanations of self-other generalisation (e.g. through the use of RW type models) or has focused on observational learning instability in absence of a causal model from where initial self-other beliefs may arise. While the prior work cited by the reviewer [Ereira (2020; Nat. Comms.) and Story (2024; Trans. Psych.)] does examine the inter-trial updating between self-other, it does not integrate a self model into a self’s belief about an other prior to observation. Rather, it focuses almost exclusively on prediction error ‘leakage’ generated during learning about individual reward (i.e. one sided reward). These findings are important, but lie in a slightly different domain. They also do not cut against ours, and in fact, we argue in the discussion that the sort of learning instability described above and splitting (as we cite from Story ea. 2024; Psych. Rev.) may result from a lack of self anchoring typical of CON participants. Nevertheless we agree these works provide an important premise to contrast and set the groundwork for our present analysis and have included them in the framing of our introduction, as well as contrasting them to our data in the discussion.

      In the introduction:

      ‘The BPD phenotype has been associated with a potential over-reliance on social versus internal cues (Henco et al., 2020), ‘splitting’ of social latent states that encode beliefs about others (Story et al., 2023), negative appraisal of interpersonal experiences with heightened self-blame (Mancinelli et al., 2024), inaccurate inferences about others’ irritability (Hula et al., 2018), and reduced belief adaptation in social learning contexts (Siegel et al., 2020). Associative models have also been adapted to characterize  ‘leaky’ self-other reinforcement learning (Ereira et al., 2018), finding that those with BPD overgeneralize (leak updates) about themselves to others (Story et al., 2024). Altogether, there is currently a gap in the direct causal link between insertion, contagion, and learning (in)stability.’

      In the discussion:

      ‘Disruptions in self-to-other generalization provide an explanation for previous computational findings related to task-based mentalizing in BPD. Studies tracking observational mentalizing reveal that individuals with BPD, compared to those without, place greater emphasis on social over internal reward cues when learning (Henco et al., 2020; Fineberg et al., 2018). Those with BPD have been shown to exhibit reduced belief adaptation (Siegel et al., 2020) along with ‘splitting’ of latent social representations (Story et al., 2024a). BPD is also shown to be associated with overgeneralisation in self-to-other belief updates about individual outcomes when using a one-sided reward structure (where participant responses had no bearing on outcomes for the partner; Story et al., 2024b). Our analyses show that those with BPD are equal to controls in their generalisation of absolute reward (outcomes that only affect one player) but disintegrate beliefs about relative reward (outcomes that affect both players) through adoption of a new, neutral belief. We interpret this together in two ways: 1. There is a strong concern about social relativity when those with BPD form beliefs about others, 2. The absence of constrained self-insertion about relative outcomes may predispose to brittle or ‘split’ beliefs. In other words, those with BPD assume ambiguity about the social relativity preferences of another (i.e. how prosocial or punitive) and are quicker to settle on an explanation to resolve this. Although self-insertion may be counter-intuitive to rational belief formation, it has important implications for sustaining adaptive, trusting social bonds via information moderation.’

      In addition, perhaps it is fairer to note more explicitly the exploratory nature of this work. Although the analyses are thorough, many of them are not argued for a priori (e.g., rate of belief updating in Figure 2C) and the reader amasses many individual findings that need to by synthesized.’

      We have now noted the primary goals of our work in the introduction, and have included caveats about the exploratory nature of our analyses. We would note that our model is in effect a causal combination of prior work cited within the introduction (Barnby et al., 2022; Moutoussis et al., 2016). This renders our computational models in effect a causal theory to test, although we agree that our dissection of the results are exploratory. We have more clearly signposted this:

      ‘Our present work sought to achieve two primary goals. 1. Extend prior causal computational theories to formalise and test the interrelation between self-insertion and social contagion on learning and behaviour to better probe interpersonal generalisation in health, and 2., Test whether previous computational findings of social learning changes in BPD can be explained by infractions to self-other generalisation. We accomplish these goals by using a dynamic, sequential economic paradigm, the Intentions Game, building upon a Social Value Orientation Framework (Murphy & Ackerman, 2011) that assumes innate motivational variation in joint reward allocation.‘

      ‘Second, in the discussion, the authors are too quick to generalize to broad clinical phenomena in BPD that are not directly connected to the task at hand. For example, on p. 22: "Those with a diagnosis of BPD also show reduced permeability in generalising from other to self. While prior research has predominantly focused on how those with BPD use information to form impressions, it has not typically examined whether these impressions affect the self." Here, it's not self-representation per se (typically, identity or one's view of oneself), but instead cooperation and prosocial tendencies in an economic context. It is important to clarify what clinical phenomena may be closely related to the task and which are more distal and perhaps should not be approached here.’

      Thank you for this important point. We agree that social value orientation, and particularly in this economically-assessed form, is but one aspect of the self, and we did not test any others. A version of the social contagion phenomena is also present in other aspects of the self in intertemporal (Moutoussis et al., 2016), economic (Suzuki et al., 2016) and moral preferences (Yu et al., 2021). It would be most interesting to attempt to correlate the degrees of insertion and contagion across the different tasks.

      We take seriously the wider concern that behaviour in our tasks based on economic preferences may not have clinical validity. This issue is central in the whole field of computational psychiatry, much of which is based on generalizing from tasks like ours, and discussing correlations with psychometric measures. We hope that it is acceptable to leave such discussions to the many reviews on computational psychiatry (Montague et al., 2012; Hitchcock et al., 2022; Huys et al., 2016). Here, we have just put a caveat in the dicussion:

      ‘Finally, a limitation may be that behaviour in tasks based on economic preferences may not have clinical validity. This issue is central to the field of computational psychiatry, much of which is based on generalising from tasks like that within this paper and discussing correlations with psychometric measures. Extrapolating  economic tasks into the real world has been the topic of discussion for the many reviews on computational psychiatry (e.g. Montague et al., 2012; Hitchcock et al., 2022; Huys et al., 2016). We note a strength of this work is the use of model comparison to understand causal algorithmic differences between those with BPD and matched healthy controls. Nevertheless, we wish to further pursue how latent characteristics captured in our models may directly relate to real-world affective change.’

      ‘On a more technical level, I had two primary concerns. First, although the authors consider alternative models within a hierarchical Bayesian framework, some challenges arise when one analyzes parameter estimates fit separately to two groups, particularly when the best-fitting model is not shared. In particular, although the authors conduct a model confusion analysis, they do not as far I could tell (and apologies if I missed it) demonstrate that the dynamics of one model are nested within the other. Given that M4 has free parameters governing the expectations on the absolute and relative reward preferences in Phase 2, is it necessarily the case that the shared parameters between M1 and M4 can be interpreted on the same scale? Relatedly, group-specific model fitting has virtues when believes there to be two distinct populations, but there is also a risk of overfitting potentially irrelevant sample characteristics when parameters are fit group by group.

      To resolve these issues, I saw one straightforward solution (though in modeling, my experience is that what seems straightforward on first glance may not be so upon further investigation). M1 assumes that participants' own preferences (posterior central tendency) in Phase 1 directly transfer to priors in Phase 2, but presumably the degree of transfer could vary somewhat without meriting an entirely new model (i.e., the authors currently place this question in terms of model selection, not within-model parameter variation). I would suggest that the authors consider a model parameterization fit to the full dataset (both groups) that contains free parameters capturing the *deviations* in the priors relative to the preceding phase's posterior. That is, the free parameters $\bar{\alpha}_{par}^m$ and $\bar{\beta}_{par}^m$ govern the central tendency of the Phase 2 prior parameter distributions directly, but could be reparametrized as deviations from Phase 1 $\theta^m_{ppt}$ parameters in an additive form. This allows for a single model to be fit all participants that encompasses the dynamics of interest such that between-group parameter comparisons are not biased by the strong assumptions imposed by M1 (that phase 1 preferences and phase 2 observations directly transfer to priors). In the case of controls, we would expect these deviation parameters to be centred on 0 insofar as the current M1 fit them best, whereas for BPD participants should have significant deviations from earlier-phase posteriors (e.g., the shift in \beta toward prior neutrality in phase 2 compared to one's own prosociality in phase 1). I think it's still valid for the authors to argue for stronger model constraints for Bayesian model comparison, as they do now, but inferences regarding parameter estimates should ideally be based on a model that can encompass the full dynamics of the entire sample, with simpler dynamics (like posterior -> prior transfer) being captured by near-zero parameter estimates.’

      Thank you for the chance to be clearer in our modelling. In particular, the suggestion to include a model that can be fit to all participants with the equivalent of the likes of partial social insertion, to check if the results stand, can actually be accomplished through our existing models.  That is, the parameter that governs the flexibility over beliefs in phase 2 under models M1 (dominant for CON participant) and M2 parameterises the degree to which participants think their partner may be different from themselves. Thus, forcibly fitting M1 and M2 hierarchically to all participants, and then separately to BPD and CON participants, can quantify the issue raised: if BPD participants indeed distinguish partners as vastly different from themselves enough to warent a new central tendency, should be quantitively higher in BPD vs CON participants under M1 and M2.

      We therefore tested this, reporting the distributional differences between for BPD and CON participants under M1, both when fitted together as a population and as separate groups. As is higher for BPD participants under both conditions for M1 and M2 it supports our claim and will add more context for the comparison - may be large enough in BPD that a new central tendency to anchor beliefs is a more parsimonious explanation.

      We cross checked this result by assessing the discrepancy between the participant’s and assumed partner’s central tendencies for both prosocial and individualistic preferences via best-fitting model M4 for the BPD group. We thereby examined whether belief disintegration is uniform across preferences (relative vs abolsute reward) or whether one tendency was shifted dramatically more than another.  We found that beliefs over prosocial-competitive preferences were dramatically shifted, whereas those over individualistic preferences were not.

      We have added the following to the main text results to explain this:

      Model Comparison:

      ‘We found that CON participants were best fit at the group level by M1 (Frequency = 0.59, Protected Exceedance Probability = 0.98), whereas BPD participants were best fit by M4 (Frequency = 0.54, Protected Exceedance Probability = 0.86; Figure 2A). We first analyse the results of these separate fits. Later, in order to assuage concerns about drawing inferences from different models, we examined the relationships between the relevant parameters when we forced all participants to be fit to each of the models (in a hierarchical manner, separated by group). In sum, our model comparison is supported by convergence in parameter values when comparisons are meaningful. We refer to both types of analysis below.’

      Phase 1:

      ‘These differences were replicated when considering parameters between groups when we fit all participants to the same models (M1-M4; see Table S2).’

      Phase 2:

      ‘To check that these conclusions about self-insertion did not depend on the different models, we found that only under M1 and M2 were consistently larger in BPD versus CON. This supports the notion that new central tendencies for BPD participants in phase 2 were required, driven by expectations about a partner’s relative reward. (see Fig S10 & Table S2). and parameters under assumptions of M1 and M2 were strongly correlated with median change in belief between phase 1 and 2 under M3 and M4, suggesting convergence in outcome (Fig S11).’

      ‘Furthermore, even under assumptions of M1-M4 for both groups, BPD showed smaller posterior median changes versus CON in phase 2 (see Table T2). These results converge to suggest those with BPD form rigid posterior beliefs.’

      ‘Assessing this same relationship under M1- and M2-only assumptions reveals a replication of this group effect for absolute reward, but the effect is reversed for relative reward (see Table S3). This accords with the context of each model, where under M1 and M2, BPD participants had larger phase 2 prior flexibility over relative reward (leading to larger initial surprise), which was better accounted for by a new central tendency under M4 during model comparison. When comparing both groups under M1-M4 informational surprise over absolute reward was consistently restricted in BPD (Table S3), suggesting a diminished weight of this preference when forming beliefs about an other.’

      Phase 3

      ‘In the dominant model for the BPD group—M4—participants are not influenced in their phase 3 choices following exposure to their partner in phase 2. To further confirm this we also analysed absolute change in median participant beliefs between phase 1 and 3 under the assumption that M1 and M3 was the dominant model for both groups (that allow for contagion to occur). This analysis aligns with our primary model comparison using M1 for CON and M4 for BPD  (Figure 2C). CON participants altered their median beliefs between phase 1 and 3 more than BPD participants (M1: linear estimate = 0.67, 95%CI: 0.16, 1.19; t = 2.57, p = 0.011; M3: linear estimate = 1.75, 95%CI: 0.73, 2.79; t = 3.36, p < 0.001). Relative reward was overall more susceptible to contagion versus absolute reward (M1: linear estimate = 1.40, 95%CI: 0.88, 1.92; t = 5.34, p<0.001; M3: linear estimate = 2.60, 95%CI: 1.57, 3.63; t = 4.98, p < 0.001). There was an interaction between group and belief type under M3 but not M1 (M3: linear estimate = 2.13, 95%CI: 0.09, 4.18, t = 2.06, p=0.041). There was only a main effect of belief type on precision under M3 (linear estimate = 0.47, 95%CI: 0.07, 0.87, t = 2.34, p = 0.02); relative reward preferences became more precise across the board. Derived model estimates of preference change between phase 1 and 3 strongly correlated between M1 and M3 along both belief types (see Table S2 and Fig S11).’

      ‘My second concern pertains to the psychometric individual difference analyses. These were not clearly justified in the introduction, though I agree that they could offer potentially meaningful insight into which scales may be most related to model parameters of interest. So, perhaps these should be earmarked as exploratory and/or more clearly argued for. Crucially, however, these analyses appear to have been conducted on the full sample without considering the group structure. Indeed, many of the scales on which there are sizable group differences are also those that show correlations with psychometric scales. So, in essence, it is unclear whether most of these analyses are simply recapitulating the between-group tests reported earlier in the paper or offer additional insights. I think it's hard to have one's cake and eat it, too, in this regard and would suggest the authors review Preacher et al. 2005, Psychological Methods for additional detail. One solution might be to always include group as a binary covariate in the symptom dimension-parameter analyses, essentially partialing the correlations for group status. I remain skeptical regarding whether there is additional signal in these analyses, but such controls could convince the reader. Nevertheless, without such adjustments, I would caution against any transdiagnostic interpretations such as this one in the Highlights: "Higher reported childhood trauma, paranoia, and poorer trait mentalizing all diminish other-to-self information transfer irrespective of diagnosis." Since many of these analyses relate to scales on which the groups differ, the transdiagnostic relevance remains to be demonstrated.’

      We have restructured the psychometric section to ensure transparency and clarity in our analysis. Namely, in response to these comments and those of the other reviewers, we have opted to remove the parameter analyses that aimed to cross-correlate psychometric scores with latent parameters from different models: as the reviewer points out, we do not have parity between dominant models for each group to warrant this, and fitting the same model to both groups artificially makes the parameters qualitatively different. Instead we have opted to focus on social contagion, or rather restrictions on , between phases 1 and 3 explained by M3. This provides us with an opportunity to examine social contagion on the whole population level isolated from self-insertion biases. We performed bootstrapping (1000 reps) and permutation testing (1000 reps) to assess the stability and significance of each edge in the partial correlation network, and then applied FDR correction (p[fdr]), thus controlling for multiple comparisons. We note that while we focused on M3 to isolate the effect across the population, social contagion across both relative and absolute reward under M3 strongly correlated with social contagion under M1 (see Fig S11).

      ‘We explored whether social contagion may be restricted as a result of trauma, paranoia, and less effective trait mentalizing under the assumption of M3 for all participants (where everyone is able to be influenced by their partner). To note, social contagion under M3 was highly correlated with contagion under M1 (see Fig S11). We conducted partial correlation analysis to estimate relationships conditional on all other associations and retained all that survived bootstrapping (1000 reps), permutation testing (1000 reps), and subsequent FDR correction. Persecution and CTQ scores were both moderately associated with MZQ scores (RGPTSB r = 0.41, 95%CI: 0.23, 0.60, p = 0.004, p[fdr]=0.043; CTQ r = 0.354 95%CI: 0.13, 0.56, p=0.019, p[fdr]=0.02). MZQ scores were in turn moderately and negatively associated with shifts in prosocial-competitive preferences () between phase 1 and 3 (r = -0.26, 95%CI: -0.46, -0.06, p=0.026, p[fdr]=0.043). CTQ scores were also directly and negatively associated with shifts in individualistic preferences (; r = -0.24, 95%CI: -0.44, -0.13, p=0.052, p[fdr]=0.065). This provides some preliminary evidence that trauma impacts beliefs about individualism directly, whereas trauma and persecutory beliefs impact beliefs about prosociality through impaired mentalising (Figure 4A).’

      (1) As far as I could tell, the authors didn't provide an explanation of this finding on page 5: "However, CON participants made significantly fewer prosocial choices when individualistic choices were available" While one shouldn't be forced to interpret every finding, the paper is already in that direction and I found this finding to be potentially relevant to the BPD-control comparison.

      Thank you for this observation. This sentance reports the fact that CON participants were effectively more selfish than BPD participants. This is captured by the lower value of reported in Figure 2, and suggests that CON participants were more focused on absolute value – acting in a more ‘economically rational’ manner – versus BPD participants. This fits in with our fourth paragraph of the discussion where we discuss prior work that demonstrates a heightened social focus in those with BPD. Indeed, the finding the reviewer highlights further emphasises the point that those with BPD are much more sensitive, and motived to choose, options concerning relative reward than are CON participants. The text in the discussion reads:

      ‘We also observe this in self-generated participant choice behaviour, where CON participants were more concerned over absolute reward versus their BPD counterparts, suggesting a heighted focus on relative vs. absolute reward in those with BPD.’

      (2) The adaptive algorithm for adjusting partner behavior in Phase 2 was clever and effective. Did the authors conduct a manipulation check to demonstrate that the matching resulted in approximately 50% difference between one's behavior in Phase 1 and the partner in Phase 2? Perhaps Supplementary Figure suffices, but I wondered about a simpler metric.

      Thanks for this point. We highlight this in Figure 3B and within the same figure legend although appreciate the panel is quite small and may be missed.  We have now highlighted this manipulation check more clearly in behavioural analysis section of the main text:

      ‘Server matching between participant and partner in phase 2 was successful, with participants being approximately 50% different to their partners with respect to the choices each would have made on each trial in phase 2 (mean similarity=0.49, SD=0.12).’

      (3) The resolution of point-range plots in Figure 4 was grainy. Perhaps it's not so in the separate figure file, but I'd suggest checking.

      Apologies. We have now updated and reorganised the figure to improve clarity.

      (4) p. 21: Suggest changing to "different" as opposed to "opposite" since the strategies are not truly opposing: "but employed opposite strategies."

      We have amended this.

      (5) p. 21: I found this sentence unclear, particularly the idea of "similar updating regime." I'd suggest clarifying: "In phase 2, CON participants exhibited greater belief sensitivity to new information during observational learning, eventually adopting a similar updating regime to those with BPD."

      We have clarified this statement:

      ‘In observational learning in phase 2, CON participants initially updated their beliefs in response to new information more quickly than those with BPD, but eventually converged to a similar rate of updating.’

      (6) p. 23: The content regarding psychosis seemed out of place, particularly as the concluding remark. I'd suggest keeping the focus on the clinical population under investigation. If you'd like to mention the paradigm's relevance to psychosis (which I think could be omitted), perhaps include this as a future direction when describing the paradigm's strengths above.

      We agree the paragraph is somewhat speculative. We have omitted it in aid of keeping the messaging succinct and to the point.

      (7) p. 24: Was BPD diagnosis assess using unstructured clinical interview? Although psychosis was exclusionary, what about recent manic or hypomanic episodes or Bipolar diagnosis? A bit more detail about BPD sample ascertainment would be useful, including any instruments used to make a diagnosis and information about whether you measured inter-rater agreement.

      Participants diagnosed with BPD were recruited from specialist personality disorder services across various London NHS mental health trusts. The diagnosis of BPD was established by trained assessors at the clinical services and confirmed using the Structured Clinical Interview for DSM-IV (SCID-II) (First et al., 1997). Individuals with a history of psychotic episodes, severe learning disability or neurological illness/trauma were excluded. We have now included this extra detail within our methods in the paper:

      ‘The majority of BPD participants were recruited through referrals by psychiatrists, psychotherapists, and trainee clinical psychologists within personality disorder services across 9 NHS Foundation Trusts in the London, and 3 NHS Foundation Trusts across England (Devon, Merseyside, Cambridgeshire). Four BPD participants were also recruited by self-referral through the UCLH website, where the study was advertised. To be included in the study, all participants needed to have, or meet criteria for, a primary diagnosis of BPD (or emotionally-unstable personality disorder or complex emotional needs) based on a professional clinical assessment conducted by the referring NHS trust (for self-referrals, the presence of a recent diagnosis was ascertained through thorough discussion with the participant, whereby two of the four also provided clinical notes). The patient participants also had to be under the care of the referring trust or have a general practitioner whose details they were willing to provide. Individuals with psychotic or mood disorders, recent acute psychotic episodes, severe learning disability, or current or past neurological disorders were not eligible for participation and were therefore not referred by the clinical trusts.‘

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1:

      Point 1.1

      Summary: This paper describes a reanalysis of data collected by Gagne et al. (2020), who investigated how human choice behaviour differs in response to changes in environmental volatility. Several studies to date have demonstrated that individuals appear to increase their learning rate in response to greater volatility and that this adjustment is reduced amongst individuals with anxiety and depression. The present authors challenge this view and instead describe a novel Mixture of Strategies (MOS) model, that attributes individual differences in choice behaviour to different weightings of three distinct decision-making strategies. They demonstrate that the MOS model provides a superior fit to the data and that the previously observed differences between patients and healthy controls may be explained by patients opting for a less cognitively demanding, but suboptimal, strategy. 

      Strengths: 

      The authors compare several models (including the original winning model in Gagne et al., 2020) that could feasibly fit the data. These are clearly described and are evaluated using a range of model diagnostics. The proposed MOS model appears to provide a superior fit across several tests. 

      The MOS model output is easy to interpret and has good face validity. This allows for the generation of clear, testable, hypotheses, and the authors have suggested several lines of potential research based on this. 

      We appreciate the efforts in understanding our manuscript. This is a good summary.

      Point 1.2

      The authors justify this reanalysis by arguing that learning rate adjustment (which has previously been used to explain choice behaviour on volatility tasks) is likely to be too computationally expensive and therefore unfeasible. It is unclear how to determine how "expensive" learning rate adjustment is, and how this compares to the proposed MOS model (which also includes learning rate parameters), which combines estimates across three distinct decision-making strategies. 

      We are sorry for this confusion. Actually, our motivation is that previous models only consider the possibility of learning rate adaptation to different levels of environmental volatility. The drawback of previous computational modeling is that they require a large number of parameters in multi-context experiments. We feel that learning rate adaptation may not be the only mechanisms or at least there may exist alternative explanations. Understanding the true mechanisms is particularly important for rehabilitation purposes especially in our case of anxiety and depression. To clarify, we have removed all claims about the learning rate adaptation is “too complex to understand”.

      Point 1.3

      As highlighted by the authors, the model is limited in its explanation of previously observed learning differences based on outcome value. It's currently unclear why there would be a change in learning across positive/negative outcome contexts, based on strategy choice alone. 

      Thanks for mentioning this limitation. We want to highlight two aspect of work.

      First, we developed the MOS6 model primarily to account for the learning rate differences between stable and volatile contexts, and between healthy controls and patients, not for between positive and negative outcomes. In the other words, our model does not eliminate the possibility of different learning rate in positive and negative outcomes.

      Second, Figure 3A shows that FLR (containing different learning parameters for positive/negative outcomes) even performed worse than MOS6 (setting identical learning rate for positive/negative outcomes). This result question whether learning rate differences between positive/negative outcomes exist in our dataset.

      Action: We now include this limitation in lines 784-793 in discussion:

      “The MOS model is developed to offer context-free interpretations for the learning rate differences observed both between stable and volatile contexts and between healthy individuals and patients. However, we also recognize that the MOS account may not justify other learning rate effects based solely on strategy preferences. One such example is the valence-specific learning rate differences, where learning rates for better-than-expected outcomes are higher than those for worse-than-expected outcomes (Gagne et al., 2020). When fitted to the behavioral data, the context-dependent MOS22 model does not reveal valence-specific learning rates (Supplemental Note 4). Moreover, the valence-specific effect was not replicated in the FLR22 model when fitted to the synthesized data of MOS6.”

      Point 1.4

      Overall the methods are clearly presented and easy to follow, but lack clarity regarding some key features of the reversal learning task.

      Throughout the method the stimuli are referred to as "right" and "left". It's not uncommon in reversal learning tasks for the stimuli to change sides on a trial-by-trial basis or counterbalanced across stable/volatile blocks and participants. It is not stated in the methods whether the shapes were indeed kept on the same side throughout. If this is the case, please state it. If it was not (and the shapes did change sides throughout the task) this may have important implications for the interpretation of the results. In particular, the weighting of the habitual strategy (within the Mixture of Strategies model) could be very noisy, as participants could potentially have been habitual in choosing the same side (i.e., performing the same motor movement), or in choosing the same shape. Does the MOS model account for this? 

      We are sorry for the confusion. Yes, two shapes indeed changed sides throughout the task. We replaced the “left” and “right” with “stimulus 1” and “stimulus 2”. We also acknowledge the possibility that participants may develop a habitual preference for a particular side, rather than a shape. Due to the counterbalance design, habitual on side will introduce a random selection noise in choices, which should be captured by the MOS model through the inverse temperature parameter.  

      Point 1.5

      Line 164: "Participants received points or money in the reward condition and an electric shock in the punishment condition." What determined whether participants received points or money, and did this differ across participants? 

      Thanks! We have the design clarified in lines 187-188:

      “Each participant was instructed to complete two blocks of the volatile reversal learning task, one in the reward context and the other in the aversive context”,

      and in lines:

      “A total of 79 participants completed tasks in both feedback contexts. Four participants only completed the task in the reward context, while three participants only completed the aversive task.”

      Point 1.6

      Line 167: "The participant received feedback only after choosing the correct stimulus and received nothing else" Is this correct? In Figure 1a it appears the participant receives feedback irrespective of the stimulus they chose, by either being shown the amount 1-99 they are being rewarded/shocked, or 0. Additionally, what does the "correct stimulus" refer to across the two feedback conditions? It seems intuitive that in the reward version, the correct answer would be the rewarding stimulus - in the loss version is the "correct" answer the one where they are not receiving a shock? 

      Thanks for raising this issue. We removed the term “correct stimulus” and revised the lines 162-166 accordingly:

      “Only one of the two stimuli was associated with actual feedback (0 for the other one). The feedback magnitude, ranged between 1-99, is sampled uniformly and independently for each shape from trial to trial. Actual feedback was delivered only if the stimulus associated with feedback was chosen; otherwise, a number “0” was displayed on the screen, signifying that the chosen stimulus returns nothing.”

      Point 1.7

      Line 176: "The whole experiment included two runs each for the two feedback conditions." Does this mean participants completed the stable and volatile blocks twice, for each feedback condition? (i.e., 8 blocks total, 4 per feedback condition). 

      Thanks! We have removed the term “block”, and now we refer to it as “context”. In particular, we removed phrases like “stable block” and “volatile block” and used “context” instead.

      Action: See lines 187-189 for the revised version.

      “Each participant was instructed to complete two runs of the volatile reversal learning task, one in the reward context and the other in the aversive context. Each run consisted of 180 trials, with 90 trials in the stable context and 90 in the volatile context (Fig. 1B).”

      Point 1.8

      In the expected utility (EU) strategy of the Mixture or Strategies model, the expected value of the stimulus on each trial is produced by multiplying the magnitude and probability of reward/shock. In Gagne et al.'s original paper, they found that an additive mixture of these components better-captured participant choice behaviour - why did the authors not opt for the same strategy here? 

      Thanks for asking this. Their strategy basic means the mixture of PF+MO+HA, where PF stands for the feedback probability (e.g., 0.3 or 0.7) without multiplying feedback magnitude. However, ours are EU+MO+HA, where EU stands for feedback probability x feedback magnitude. We did compare these two strategies and the model using their strategy performed much worse than ours (see the red box below).

      Author response image 1.

      Thorough model comparison.

      Point 1.9

      How did the authors account for individuals with poor/inattentive responding, my concern is that the habitual strategy may be capturing participants who did not adhere to the task (or is this impossible to differentiate?). 

      The current MOS6 model distinguishes between the HA strategy and the inattentive response. Due to the counterbalance design, the HA strategy requires participants to actively track the stimuli on the screen. In contrast, the inattentive responding, like the same motor movement mentioned in Point 1.4, should exhibit random selection in their behavioral data, which should be account by the inverse temperature parameter.

      Point 1.10

      The authors provide a clear rationale for, and description of, each of the computational models used to capture participant choice behaviour. 

      • Did the authors compare different combinations of strategies within the MOS model (e.g., only including one or two strategies at a time, and comparing fit?) I think more explanation is needed as to why the authors opted for those three specific strategies. 

      We appreciate this great advice. Following your advice, we conducted a thorough model comparisons. Please refer to Figure R1 above. The detailed text descriptions of all the models in Figure R1 are included in Supplemental Note 1.

      Point 1.11

      Please report the mean and variability of each of the strategy weights, per group. 

      Thanks. We updated the mean of variability of the strategies in lines 490-503:

      “We first focused on the fitted parameters of the MOS6 model. We compared the weight parameters (, , ) across groups and conducted statistical tests on their logits (, , ). The patient group showed a ~37% preference towards the EU strategy, which is significantly weaker than the ~50% preference in healthy controls (healthy controls’ : M = 0.991, SD = 1.416; patients’ : M = 0.196, SD = 1.736; t(54.948) = 2.162, p = 0.035, Cohen’s d = 0.509; Fig. 4A). Meanwhile, the patients exhibited a weaker preference (~27%) for the HA strategy compared to healthy controls (~36%) (healthy controls’ : M = 0.657,  SD = 1.313; patients’ : M = -0.162, SD = 1.561; t(56.311) = 2.455, p = 0.017, Cohen’s d = 0.574), but a stronger preference for the MO strategy (36% vs. 14%; healthy controls’ : M = -1.647,  SD = 1.930; patients’ : M = -0.034, SD = 2.091; t(63.746) = -3.510, p = 0.001, Cohen’s d = 0.801). Most importantly, we also examined the learning rate parameter in the MOS6 but found no group differences (t(68.692) = 0.690, p = 0.493, Cohen’s d = 0.151). These results strongly suggest that the differences in decision strategy preferences can account for the learning behaviors in the two groups without necessitating any differences in learning rate per se.”

      Point 1.12

      The authors compare the strategy weights of patients and controls and conclude that patients favour more simpler strategies (see Line 417), based on the fact that they had higher weights for the MO, and lower on the EU.

      (1) However, the finding that control participants were more likely to use the habitual strategy was largely ignored. Within the control group, were the participants significantly more likely to opt for the EU strategy, over the HA? 2) Further, on line 467 the authors state "Additionally, there was a significant correlation between symptom severity and the preference for the HA strategy (Pearson's r = -0.285, p = 0.007)." Apologies if I'm mistaken, but does this negative correlation not mean that the greater the symptoms, the less likely they were to use the habitual strategy?

      I think more nuance is needed in the interpretation of these results, particularly in the discussion. 

      Thanks. The healthy participants seemed more likely to opt for the EU strategy, although this difference did not reach significance (paired-t(53) = 1.258, p = 0.214, Cohen’s d = 0.242). We systematically explore the role of HA. Compared to the MO, the HA saves cognitive resources but yields a significantly higher hit rate (Fig. 4A). Therefore, a preference for the HA over the MO strategy may reflect a more sophisticated balance between reward and complexity within an agent: when healthier subjects run out of cognitive resources for the EU strategy, they will cleverly resort to the HA strategy, adopting a simpler strategy but still achieving a certain level of hit rate. This explains the negative symptom-HA correlation. As clever as the HA strategy is, it is not surprising that the health control participants opt more for the HA during decision-making.

      However, we are cautious to draw strong conclusion on (1) non-significant difference between EU and HA within health controls and (2) the negative symptom-HA correlation. The reason is that the MOS22, the context-dependent variant, 1) exhibited a significant higher preference for EU over HA (paired-t(53) = 4.070, p < 0.001, Cohen’s d = 0.825) and 2) did not replicate this negative correlation (Supplemental Information Figure S3).

      Action: Simulation analysis on the effects of HA was introduced in lines 556-595 and Figure 4. We discussed the effects of HA in lines 721-733:

      “Although many observed behavioral differences can be explained by a shift in preference from the EU to the MO strategy among patients, we also explore the potential effects of the HA strategy. Compared to the MO, the HA strategy also saves cognitive resources but yields a significantly higher hit rate (Fig. 4A). Therefore, a preference for the HA over the MO strategy may reflect a more sophisticated balance between reward and complexity within an agent (Gershman, 2020): when healthier participants exhaust their cognitive resources for the EU strategy, they may cleverly resort to the HA strategy, adopting a simpler strategy but still achieving a certain level of hit rate. This explains the stronger preference for the HA strategy in the HC group (Fig. 3A) and the negative correlation between HA preferences and symptom severity  (Fig. 5). Apart from shedding light on the cognitive impairments of patients, the inclusion of the HA strategy significantly enhances the model’s fit to human behavior (see examples in Daw et al. (2011); Gershman (2020); and also Supplemental Note 1 and Supplemental Figure S3).”

      Point 1.13

      Line 513: "their preference for the slowest decision strategy" - why is the MO considered the slowest strategy? Is it not the least cognitively demanding, and therefore, the quickest? 

      Sorry for the confusion. In Fig. 5C, we conducted simulations to estimate the learning speed for each strategy. As shown below, the MO strategy exhibits a flat learning curve. Our claim on the learning speed was based solely on simulation outcomes without referring to cognitive demands. Note that our analysis did not aim to compare the cognitive demands of the MO and HA strategies directly.

      Action: We explain the learning speed of the three strategies in lines 571-581.

      Point 1.14

      The authors argue that participants chose suboptimal strategies, but do not actually report task performance. How does strategy choice relate to the performance on the task (in terms of number of rewards/shocks)? Did healthy controls actually perform any better than the patient group? 

      Thanks for the suggestion. The answers are: 1) EU is the most rewarding > the HA > the MO (Fig. 5A), and 2) yes healthy controls did actually perform better than patients in terms of hit rate (Fig. 2).

      Action: We included additional sections on above analyses in lines 561-570 and lines 397-401.

      Point 1.15

      The authors speculate that Gagne et al. (2020) did not study the relationship between the decision process and anxiety and depression, because it was too complex to analyse. It's unclear why the FLR model would be too complex to analyse. My understanding is that the focus of Gagne's paper was on learning rate (rather than noise or risk preference) due to this being the main previous finding. 

      Thanks! Yes, our previous arguments are vague and confusing. We have removed all this kind of arguments.

      Point 1.16

      Minor Comments: 

      • Line 392: Modeling fitting > Model fitting 

      • Line 580 reads "The MO and HA are simpler heuristic strategies that are cognitively demanding."

      - should this read as less cognitively demanding? 

      • Line 517: health > healthy 

      • Line 816: Desnity > density 

      Sorry for the typo! They have all been fixed.

      Reviewer #2:

      Point 2.1

      Summary: Previous research shows that humans tend to adjust learning in environments where stimulus-outcome contingencies become more volatile. This learning rate adaptation is impaired in some psychiatric disorders, such as depression and anxiety. In this study, the authors reanalyze previously published data on a reversal-learning task with two volatility levels. Through a new model, they provide some evidence for an alternative explanation whereby the learning rate adaptation is driven by different decision-making strategies and not learning deficits. In particular, they propose that adjusting learning can be explained by deviations from the optimal decision-making strategy (based on maximizing expected utility) due to response stickiness or focus on reward magnitude. Furthermore, a factor related to the general psychopathology of individuals with anxiety and depression negatively correlated with the weight on the optimal strategy and response stickiness, while it correlated positively with the magnitude strategy (a strategy that ignores the probability of outcome). 

      Thanks for evaluating our paper. This is a good summary.

      Point 2.2

      My main concern is that the winning model (MOS6) does not have an error term (inverse temperature parameter beta is fixed to 8.804). 

      (1) It is not clear why the beta is not estimated and how were the values presented here chosen. It is reported as being an average value but it is not clear from which parameter estimation. Furthermore, with an average value for participants that would have lower values of inverse temperature (more stochastic behaviour) the model is likely overfitting.

      (2) In the absence of a noise parameter, the model will have to classify behaviour that is not explained by the optimal strategy (where participants simply did not pay attention or were not motivated) as being due to one of the other two strategies.

      We apologize for any confusion caused by our writing. We did set the inverse temperature as a free parameter and quantitatively estimate it during the model fitting and comparison. We also created a table to show the free parameters for each models. In the previous manuscript, we did mention “temperature parameter beta is fixed to 8.804”, but only for the model simulation part, which is conducted to interpret some model behaviors.

      We agree with the concern that using the averaged value over the inverse temperature could lead to overfitting to more stochastic behaviors. To mitigate this issue, we now used the median as a more representative value for the population during simulation. Nonetheless, this change does not affect our conclusion (see simulation results in Figures 4&6).

      Action: We now use the term “free parameter” to emphasize that the inverse temperature was fitted rather than fixed. We also create a new table “Table 1”  in line 458 to show all the free parameters within a model. We also update the simulation details in lines 363-391 for more clarifications.

      Point 2.3

      (3) A model comparison among models with inverse temperature and variable subsets of the three strategies (EU + MO, EU + HA) would be interesting to see. Similarly, comparison of the MOS6 model to other models where the inverse temperature parameter is fixed to 8.804).

      This is an important limitation because the same simulation as with the MOS model in Figure 3b can be achieved by a more parsimonious (but less interesting) manipulation of the inverse temperature parameter.

      Thanks, we added a comparison between the MOS6 and the two lesion models (EU + MO, EU + HA). Please refer to the figure below and Point 1.8.

      We also realize that the MO strategy could exhibit averaged learning curves similar to random selection. To confirm that patients' slower learning rates are due to a preference for the MO strategy, we compared the MOS6 model with a variant (see the red box below) in which the MO strategy is replaced by Random (RD) selection that assigns a 0.5 probability to both choices. This comparison showed that the original MOS6 model with the MO strategy better fits human data.

      Author response image 2.

      Point 2.4

      Furthermore, the claim that the EU represents an optimal strategy is a bit overstated. The EU strategy is the only one of the three that assumes participants learn about the stimulus-outcomes contingencies. Higher EU strategy utilisation will include participants that are more optimal (in maximum utility maximisation terms), but also those that just learned better and completely ignored the reward magnitude.

      Thank you for your feedback. We have now revised the paper to remove all statement about “EU strategy is the optimal” and replaced by “EU strategy is rewarding but complex”. We agree that both the EU strategy and the strategy only focusing on feedback probability (i.e., ignoring the reward magnitude, refer to as the PF strategy) are rewarding but complex beyond two simple heuristics. We also included the later strategy in our model comparisons (see the next section Point 2.5).

      Point 2.5

      The mixture strategies model is an interesting proposal, but seems to be a very convoluted way to ask: to what degree are decisions of subjects affected by reward, what they've learned, and response stickiness? It seems to me that the same set of questions could be addressed with a simpler model that would define choice decisions through a softmax with a linear combination of the difference in rewards, the difference in probabilities, and a stickiness parameter. 

      Thanks for suggesting this model. We did include the proposed linear combination models (see “linear comb.” in the red box below) and found that it performed significantly worse than the MOS6.

      Action: We justified our model selection criterion in the Supplemental Note 1.

      Author response image 3.

      Point 2.6

      Learning rate adaptation was also shown with tasks where decision-making strategies play a less important role, such as the Predictive Inference task (see for instance Nassar et al, 2010). When discussing the merit of the findings of this study on learning rate adaptation across volatility blocks, this work would be essential to mention. 

      Thanks for mentioning this great experimental paradigm, which provides an ideal solution for disassociating the probability learning and decision process. We have discussed about this paradigm as well as the associated papers in discussion lines 749-751, 763-765, and 796-801.

      Point 2.7

      Minor mistakes that I've noticed:

      Equation 6: The learning rate for response stickiness is sometimes defined as alpha_AH or alpha_pi.

      Supplementary material (SM) Contents are lacking in Note1. SM talks about model MOS18, but it is not defined in the text (I am assuming it is MOS22 that should be talked about here).

      Thanks! Fixed.

      Reviewer #3:

      Point 3.1

      Summary: This paper presents a new formulation of a computational model of adaptive learning amid environmental volatility. Using a behavioral paradigm and data set made available by the authors of an earlier publication (Gagne et al., 2020), the new model is found to fit the data well. The model's structure consists of three weighted controllers that influence decisions on the basis of (1) expected utility, (2) potential outcome magnitude, and (3) habit. The model offers an interpretation of psychopathology-related individual differences in decision-making behavior in terms of differences in the relative weighting of the three controllers.

      Strengths: The newly proposed "mixture of strategies" (MOS) model is evaluated relative to the model presented in the original paper by Gagne et al., 2020 (here called the "flexible learning rate" or FLR model) and two other models. Appropriate and sophisticated methods are used for developing, parameterizing, fitting, and assessing the MOS model, and the MOS model performs well on multiple goodness-of-fit indices. The parameters of the model show decent recoverability and offer a novel interpretation for psychopathology-related individual differences. Most remarkably, the model seems to be able to account for apparent differences in behavioral learning rates between high-volatility and low-volatility conditions even with no true condition-dependent change in the parameters of its learning/decision processes. This finding calls into question a class of existing models that attribute behavioral adaptation to adaptive learning rates. 

      Thanks for evaluating our paper. This is a good summary.

      Point 3.2<br /> (1) Some aspects of the paper, especially in the methods section, lacked clarity or seemed to assume context that had not been presented. I found it necessary to set the paper down and read Gagne et al., 2020 in order to understand it properly.

      (3) Clarification-related suggestions for the methods section: <br /> - Explain earlier that there are 4 contexts (reward/shock crossed with high/low volatility). Lines 252-307 contain a number of references to parameters being fit separately per context, but "context" was previously used only to refer to the two volatility levels. 

      Action: We have placed the explanation as well as the table about the 4 contexts (stable-reward/stable-aversive/volatile-reward/volatile-aversive) earlier in the section that introduces the experiment paradigm (lines 177-186):

      “Participants was supposed to complete this learning and decision-making task in four experimental contexts (Fig. 1A), two feedback contexts (reward or aversive)  two volatility contexts (stable or volatile). Participants received points in the reward context and an electric shock in the aversive context. The reward points in the reward context were converted into a monetary bonus by the end of the task, ranging from £0 to £10. In the stable context, the dominant stimulus (i.e., a certain stimulus induces the feedback with a higher probability) provided a feedback with a fixed probability of 0.75, while the other one yielded a feedback with a probability of 0.25. In the volatile context, the dominant stimulus’s feedback probability was 0.8, but the dominant stimulus switched between the two every 20 trials. Hence, this design required participants to actively learn and infer the changing stimulus-feedback contingency in the volatile context.”

      - It would be helpful to provide an initial outline of the four models that will be described since the FLR, RS, and PH models were not foreshadowed in the introduction. For the FLR model in particular, it would be helpful to give a narrative overview of the components of the model before presenting the notation. 

      Action: We now include an overview paragraph in the section of computation model to outline the four models as well as the hypotheses constituted in the model (lines 202-220).  

      - The subsection on line 343, describing the simulations, lacks context. There are references to three effects being simulated (and to "the remaining two effects") but these are unclear because there's no statement in this section of what the three effects are.

      - Lines 352-353 give group-specific weighting parameters used for the stimulations of the HC and PAT groups in Figure 4B. A third, non-group-specific set of weighting parameters is given above on lines 348-349. What were those used for?

      - Line 352 seems to say Figure 4A is plotting a simulation, but the figure caption seems to say it is plotting empirical data. 

      These paragraphs has been rewritten and the abovementioned issues have been clarified. See lines 363-392.

      Point 3.2

      (2) There is little examination of why the MOS model does so well in terms of model fit indices. What features of the data is it doing a better job of capturing? One thing that makes this puzzling is that the MOS and FLR models seem to have most of the same qualitative components: the FLR model has parameters for additive weighting of magnitude relative to probability (akin to the MOS model's magnitude-only strategy weight) and for an autocorrelative choice kernel (akin to the MOS model's habit strategy weight). So it's not self-evident where the MOS model's advantage is coming from.

      An intuitive understanding of the FLR model is that it estimates the stimuli value through a linear combination of probability feedback (PF, )and (non-linear) magnitude .See equation:

      Also, the FLR model include the mechanisms of HA as:

      In other words, FLR model considers the mechanisms about the probability of feedback (PF)+MO+HA (see Eq. XX in the original study), but our MOS considers the mechanisms of EU+MO+HA. The key qualitative difference lies between FLR and MOS is the usage of the expected utility formula (EU) instead the probability of feedback (PF). The advantage of our MOS model has been fully evidenced by our model comparisons, indicating that human participants multiply probability and magnitude rather than only considering probability. The EU strategy has also been suggested by a large pile of literature (Gershman et al., 2015; Von Neumann & Morgenstern, 1947).

      Making decisions based on the multiplication of feedback probability and magnitude can often yield very different results compared to decisions based on a linear combination of the two, especially when the two magnitudes have a small absolute difference but a large ratio. Let’s consider two cases:

      (1) Stimulus 1: vs. Stimulus 2:

      (2) Stimulus 1: vs. Stimulus 2:

      The EU strategy may opt for stimulus 2 in both cases, since stimulus 2 always has a larger expected value. However, it is very likely for the PF+MO to choose stimulus 1 in the first case. For example, when .  If we want the PF+MO to also choose stimulus to align with the EU strategy, we need to increase the weight on magnitude . Note that in this example we divided the magnitude value by 100 to ensure that probability and magnitude are on the same scale to help illustration.

      In the dataset reported by Gagne, 2020, the described scenario seems to occur more often in the aversive context than in the reward context. To accurately capture human behaviors, FLR22 model requires a significantly larger weight for magnitude in the aversive context than in the reward context . Interestingly, when the weights for magnitude in different contexts are forced to be equal, the model (FLR6) fails, exhibiting an almost chance-level performance throughout learning (Fig. 3E, G). In contrast, the MOS6 model, and even the RS3 model, exhibit good performance using one identical set of parameters across contexts. Both MOS6 and RS3 include the EU strategy during decision-making. These findings suggest humans make decisions using the EU strategy rather than PF+MO.

      The focus of our paper is to present that a good-enough model can interpret the same dataset in a completely different perspective, not necessarily to explore improvements for the FLR model.

      Point 3.3

      One of the paper's potentially most noteworthy findings (Figure 5) is that when the FLR model is fit to synthetic data generated by the expected utility (EU) controller with a fixed learning rate, it recovers a spurious difference in learning rate between the volatile and stable environments. Although this is potentially a significant finding, its interpretation seems uncertain for several reasons: 

      - According to the relevant methods text, the result is based on a simulation of only 5 task blocks for each strategy. It would be better to repeat the simulation and recovery multiple times so that a confidence interval or error bar can be estimated and added to the figure. 

      - It makes sense that learning rates recovered for the magnitude-oriented (MO) strategy are near zero, since behavior simulated by that strategy would have no reason to show any evidence of learning. But this makes it perplexing why the MO learning rate in the volatile condition is slightly positive and slightly greater than in the stable condition. 

      - The pure-EU and pure-MO strategies are interpreted as being analogous to the healthy control group and the patient group, respectively. However, the actual difference in estimated EU/MO weighting between the two participant groups was much more moderate. It's unclear whether the same result would be obtained for a more empirically plausible difference in EU/MO weighting. 

      - The fits of the FLR model to the simulated data "controlled all parameters except for the learning rate parameters across the two strategies" (line 522). If this means that no parameters except learning rate were allowed to differ between the fits to the pure-EU and pure-MO synthetic data sets, the models would have been prevented from fitting the difference in terms of the relative weighting of probability and magnitude, which better corresponds to the true difference between the two strategies. This could have interfered with the estimation of other parameters, such as learning rate. 

      - If, after addressing all of the above, the FLR model really does recover a spurious difference in learning rate between stable and volatile blocks, it would be worth more examination of why this is happening. For example, is it because there are more opportunities to observe learning in those blocks?

      I would recommend performing a version of the Figure 5 simulations using two sets of MOS-model parameters that are identical except that they use healthy-control-like and patient-like values of the EU and MO weights (similar to the parameters described on lines 346-353, though perhaps with the habit controller weight equated). Then fit the simulated data with the FLR model, with learning rate and other parameters free to differ between groups. The result would be informative as to (1) whether the FLR model still misidentifies between-group strategy differences as learning rate differences, and (2) whether the FLR model still identifies spurious learning rate differences between stable and volatile conditions in the control-like group, which become attenuated in the patient-like group. 

      Many thanks for this great advice. Following your suggestions, we now conduct simulations using the median of the fitted parameters. The representations for healthy controls and patients have identical parameters, except for the three preference parameters; moreover, the habit weights are not controlled to be equal. 20 simulations for each representative, each comprising 4 task sequences sampled from the behavioral data. In this case, we could create error bars and perform statistical tests. We found that the differences in learning rates between stable and volatile conditions, as well as the learning rate adaptation differences between healthy controls and patients, still persisted.

      Combined with the discussion in Point 3.2, we justify why a mixture-of-strategy can account for learning rate adaptation as follow. Due to (unknown) differences in task sequences, the MOS6 model exhibits more MO-like behaviors due to the usage of the EU strategy. To capture this behavior pattern, the FLR22 model has to increase its weighting parameter 1-λ for magnitude, which could ultimately drive the FLR22 to adjust the fitted learning rate parameters, exhibiting a learning rate adaptation effect. Our simulations suggest that estimating learning rate just by model fitting may not be the only way to interpret the data.

      Action: We included the simulation details in the method section (lines 381-lines 391)

      “In one simulated experiment, we sampled the four task sequences from the real data. We simulated 20 experiments with the parameters of to mimic the behavior of the healthy control participants. The first three are the median of the fitted parameters across all participants; the latter three were chosen to approximate the strategy preferences of real health control participants (Figure 4A). Similarly, we also simulated 20 experiments for the patient group with the identical values of , and , but different strategy preferences   . In other words, the only difference in the parameters of the two groups is the switched and . We then fitted the FLR22 to the behavioral data generated by the MOS6 and examined the learning rate differences across groups and volatile contexts (Fig. 6). ”

      Point 3.4

      Figure 4C shows that the habit-only strategy is able to learn and adapt to changing contingencies, and some of the interpretive discussion emphasizes this. (For instance, line 651 says the habit strategy brings more rewards than the MO strategy.) However, the habit strategy doesn't seem to have any mechanism for learning from outcome feedback. It seems unlikely it would perform better than chance if it were the sole driver of behavior. Is it succeeding in this example because it is learning from previous decisions made by the EU strategy, or perhaps from decisions in the empirical data?

      Yes, the intuition is that the HA strategy seems to show no learning mechanism. But in reality, it yields a higher hit rate than MO by simply learning from previous decisions made by the EU strategy. We run simulations to confirm this (Figure 4B).

      Point 3.5

      For the model recovery analysis (line 567), the stated purpose is to rule out the possibility that the MOS model always wins (line 552), but the only result presented is one in which the MOS model wins. To assess whether the MOS and FLR models can be differentiated, it seems necessary also to show model recovery results for synthetic data generated by the FLR model. 

      Sure, we conducted a model recovery analysis that include all models, and it demonstrates that MOS and FLR can be fully differentiated. The results of the new model recovery analysis were shown in Fig. 7.

      Point 3.6

      To the best of my understanding, the MOS model seems to implement valence-specific learning rates in a qualitatively different way from how they were implemented in Gagne et al., 2020, and other previous literature. Line 246 says there were separate learning rates for upward and downward updates to the outcome probability. That's different from using two learning rates for "better"- and "worse"-than-expected outcomes, which will depend on both the direction of the update and the valence of the outcome (reward or shock). Might this relate to why no evidence for valence-specific learning rates was found even though the original authors found such evidence in the same data set? 

      Thanks. Following the suggestion, we have corrected our implementation of valence-specific learning rate in all models (see lines 261-268).

      “To keep consistent with Gagne et al., (2020), we also explored the valence-specific learning rate,

      is the learning rate for better-than-expected outcome, and for worse-than-expected outcome. It is important to note that Eq. 6 was only applied to the reward context, and the definitions of “better-than-expected” and “worse-than-expected” should change accordingly in the aversive context, where we defined for and for .

      No main effect of valence on learning rate was found (see Supplemental Information Note 3)

      Point 3.7

      The discussion (line 649) foregrounds the finding of greater "magnitude-only" weights with greater "general factor" psychopathology scores, concluding it reflects a shift toward simplifying heuristics. However, the picture might not be so straightforward because "habit" weights, which also reflect a simplifying heuristic, correlated negatively with the psychopathology scores. 

      Thanks. In contrast the detrimental effects of “MO”, “habit” is actually beneficial for the task. Please refer to Point 1.12.

      Point 3.8

      The discussion section contains some pejorative-sounding comments about Gagne et al. 2020 that lack clear justification. Line 611 says that the study "did not attempt to connect the decision process to anxiety and depression traits." Given that linking model-derived learning rate estimates to psychopathology scores was a major topic of the study, this broad statement seems incorrect. If the intent is to describe a more specific step that was not undertaken in that paper, please clarify. Likewise, I don't understand the justification for the statement on line 615 that the model from that paper "is not understandable" - please use more precise and neutral language to describe the model's perceived shortcomings. 

      Sorry for the confusion. We have removed all abovementioned pejorative-sounding comments.

      Point 3.9

      4. Minor suggestions: 

      - Line 114 says people with psychiatric illness "are known to have shrunk cognitive resources" - this phrasing comes across as somewhat loaded. 

      Thanks. We have removed this argument.

      - Line 225, I don't think the reference to "hot hand bias" is correct. I understand hot hand bias to mean overestimating the probability of success after past successes. That's not the same thing as habitual repetition of previous responses, which is what's being discussed here. 

      Response: Thanks for mentioning this. We have removed all discussions about “hot hand bias”.

      - There may be some notational inconsistency if alpha_pi on line 248 and alpha_HA on line 253 are referring to the same thing. 

      Thanks! Fixed!

      - Check the notation on line 285 - there may be some interchanging of decimals and commas.

      Thanks! Fixed!

      Also, would the interpretation in terms of risk seeking and risk aversion be different for rewarding versus aversive outcomes? 

      Thanks for asking. If we understand it correctly, risk seeking and risk aversion mechanisms are only present in the RS models, which show clearly worse fitting performance. We thus decide not to overly interpret the fitted parameters in the RS models.

      - Line 501, "HA and PAT groups" looks like a typo. 

      - In Figure 5, better graphical labeling of the panels and axes would be helpful. 

      Response: Thanks! Fixed!

      REFERENCES

      Daw, N. D., Gershman, S. J., Seymour, B., Dayan, P., & Dolan, R. J. (2011). Model-based influences on humans' choices and striatal prediction errors. Neuron, 69(6), 1204-1215.

      Gagne, C., Zika, O., Dayan, P., & Bishop, S. J. (2020). Impaired adaptation of learning to contingency volatility in internalizing psychopathology. Elife, 9.

      Gershman, S. J. (2020). Origin of perseveration in the trade-off between reward and complexity. Cognition, 204, 104394.

      Gershman, S. J., Horvitz, E. J., & Tenenbaum, J. B. (2015). Computational rationality: A converging paradigm for intelligence in brains, minds, and machines. Science, 349(6245), 273-278.

      Von Neumann, J., & Morgenstern, O. (1947). Theory of games and economic behavior, 2nd rev.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper investigates the neural mechanisms underlying the change in perception when viewing ambiguous figures. Each possible percept is related to an attractor-like brain state and a perceptual switch corresponds to a transition between these states. The hypothesis is that these switches are promoted by bursts of noradrenaline that change the gain of neural circuits. The authors present several lines of evidence consistent with this view: pupil diameter changes during the time point of the perceptual change; a gain change in neural network models promotes a state transition; and large-scale fMRI dynamics in a different experiment suggests a lower barrier between brain states at the change point. However, some assumptions of the computational model seem not well justified and the theoretical analysis is incomplete. The paper would also benefit from a more in-depth analysis of the experimental data.

      Strengths:

      The main strength of the paper is that it attempts to combine experimental measurements - from psychophysics, pupil measurements, and fMRI dynamics - and computational modeling to provide an emerging picture of how a perceptual switch emerges. This integrative approach is highly useful because the model has the potential to make the underlying mechanisms explicit and to make concrete predictions.

      Weaknesses:

      A general weakness is that the link between the three parts of the paper is not very strong. Pupil and fMRI measurements come from different experiments and additional analysis showing that the two experiments are comparable should be included. Crucially, the assumptions underlying the RNN modeling are unclear and the conclusions drawn from the simulation may depend on those assumptions.

      With this comment in mind we have made substantial effort to better integrate the three different aspects of our paper. On the pupillometry side, we now show that the dynamic uncertainty associated with perceptual categorisation shares a similar waveform with the observed fluctuations in pupil diameter around the switch point (Fig 2B). To better link the modelling to the behaviour we have also made the gain of the activation function of each sigmoidal unit change dynamically as a function of the uncertainty (i.e. the entropy) of the network’s classification generating phasic changes in gain that mimic the observed phasic changes in pupil dilation explicitly linking the dynamics of gain in the RNN to the observed dynamics of pupil diameter (our non-invasive proxy for neuromodulatory tone). Finally we note that the predictions of the RNN (flattened egocentric landscape and peaks in low-dimensional brain state velocity at the time point of the perceptual switch) were tested directly in the whole-brain BOLD data, which links the modelling and BOLD analysis. Finally we note that whilst we agree that an experiment in which pupilometry and BOLD data were collected simultaneously would be ideal, these data were not available to us at the time of this study.

      Main points:

      Perceptual tasks in pupil and fMRI experiments: how comparable are these two tasks? It seems that the timing is very different, with long stimulus presentations and breaks in the fMRI task and a rapid sequence in the pupil task. Detailed information about the task timing in the pupil task is missing. What evidence is there that the same mechanisms underlie perceptual switches at these different timescales? Quantification of the distributions of switching times/switching points in both tasks is missing. Do the subjects in the fMRI task show the same overall behavior as in the pupil task? More information is needed to clarify these points.

      We recognize the need for a more detailed and comparative analysis of the perceptual tasks used in our pupil and fMRI experiments, particularly regarding differences in timing, task structure, and instructions. The fMRI task incorporates jittered inter-trial intervals (ITIs) of 2, 4, 6, and 8 seconds, designed to enable effective deconvolution of the BOLD response (Stottinger et al., 2018). In contrast, the pupil task presents a more rapid sequence of stimuli without ITIs. These timing differences are reflected in the mean perceptual switch points: the 8th image in the fMRI task and the 9th image in the pupil task. This small yet consistent difference suggests subtle influences of task design on behavior.

      Despite these structural and instructional differences, our analyses indicate that overall behavioral patterns remain consistent across the two modalities. The distributions of switching times align closely, and no significant behavioral deviations were observed that might suggest a fundamental difference in the underlying mechanisms driving perceptual switches. These findings suggest that the additional time and structural differences in the fMRI task do not significantly alter the behavioral outcomes compared to the pupil task.

      To address these issues, we have added paragraphs in the Results, Methods, and Limitations sections of the manuscript. In the Results section, we provide a detailed comparison of switching point distributions across the two tasks, emphasizing behavioral consistencies and any observed variations. In the Methods section, we include an expanded description of task timing, instructions, and the presence or absence of catch trials to ensure clarity regarding the experimental setups. Finally, in the Limitations section, we acknowledge the structural differences between the tasks, particularly the lack of catch trials and rapid stimulus presentation in the pupil task, and discuss how these differences may influence perceptual dynamics.

      These additions aim to clarify how task-specific factors, such as timing, instructions, and catch trials, influence perceptual dynamics while highlighting the consistency in behavioral outcomes across both experimental setups. We believe these revisions address the concerns raised and enhance the manuscript’s transparency and rigor.

      Computational model:

      (1) Modeling noradrenaline effects in the RNN: The pupil data suggests phasic bursts of NA would promote perceptual switches. But as I understand, in the RNN neuromodulation is modeled as different levels of gain throughout the trial. Making the neural gain time-dependent would allow investigation of whether a phasic gain change can explain the experimentally observed distribution of switching times.

      We thank the reviewer for this very helpful suggestion. We updated the RNN so that, post-training, gain changes dynamically as a function of the network's classification uncertainty (i.e. the entropy of the network's output). Specifically, the gain dynamics of each unit in the neural network are governed by a linear ODE with a forcing function given by the entropy of the network’s classification (i.e. the uncertainty of the classification). This explicitly tests the hypothesis that uncertainty driven increases in gain near the perceptual switch (when the input is maximally ambiguous) speeds perceptual switches, and allows us to distinguish between tonic and phasic increases in gain (in the absence of uncertainty forcing gain decays exponentially to a tonic value of 1). Importantly, in line with our hypothesis, we found that switch times decreased as we increased the impact of uncertainty on gain (i.e. switch times decreased as the magnitude of uncertainty forcing increased). Finally, we wish to note that although making gain dynamical is relatively simple conceptually, actually implementing it and then analysing the dynamics turned out to be highly non-trivial. To our knowledge our model is the first RNN of reasonable size to implement dynamical gain requiring us to push the RNN modelling beyond the current state of the art (see Fig 2 - 4).

      (2) Modeling perceptual switches: in the results, it is described that the networks were trained to output a categorical response, but the firing rates in Fig 2B do not seem categorical but rather seem to follow the input stimulus. The output signals of the network are not shown. If I understand correctly, a trivial network that would just represent the two input signals without any internal computation and relay them to the output would do the task correctly (because "the network's choice at each time point was the maximum of the two-dimensional output", p. 22). This seems like cheating: the very operation that the model should perform is to signal the change, in a categorical manner, not to represent the gradually changing input signals.

      The output of the network was indeed trained to be categorical via a cross entropy loss function with the output defined by the max of the projection of the excitatory hidden units onto the output weights which is boilerplate RNN modelling practice. As requested we now show the output in Fig 2B. On the broader question of whether a trivially small network could solve the task we are in total agreement that with the right set of hand-crafted weights a two neuron sigmoidal network with winner-take-all readout could solve the task. We disagree, however, that using an RNN is cheating in any way. Many tasks in neuroscience can be trivially solved with a very small number of recurrent units (e.g. basically all 2AF tasks). The question we were interested in is how the brain might solve the task, and more specifically how neuromodulator control of gain changes the dynamics of our admittedly very simple task. We could have done this by hand crafting a small network to solve the task but we wanted to use the RNN modelling as a means of both hypothesis testing and hypothesis generation. We now expand on and justify this modelling choice in the second paragraph of the discussion:

      “We chose to use an RNN, instead of a simpler (more transparent) model as we wanted to use the RNN as a means of both hypothesis generation and hypothesis testing. Specifically, unlike more standard neuronal models which are handcrafted to reproduce a specific effect, when building an RNN the modeller only specifies the network inputs, labels, and the parameter constraints (e.g. Dale’s law) in advance. The dynamics of the RNN are entirely determined by optimisation. Post-training manipulations of the RNN are not built in, or in any way guaranteed to work, making them more analogous to experimental manipulations of an approximately task-optimal brain-like system. Confirmatory results are arguably, therefore, a first steps towards an in vitro experimental test.”

      (3) The mechanism of how increased gain leads to faster switches remains unclear to me. My first intuition was that increasing the gain of excitatory populations (the situation shown in Fig. 2E) in discrete attractor models would lead to deeper attractor wells and this would make it more difficult to switch. That is, a higher gain should lead to slower decisions in this case. However, here the switching time remains constant for a gain between 1 and 1.5. Lowering the gain, on the other hand, leads to slower switching. It is, of course, possible that the RNN behaves differently than classical point attractor models or that my intuition is incorrect (though I believe it is consistent with previous literature, e.g. Niyogi & Wong-Lin 2013 (doi:10.1371/journal.pcbi.1003099) who show higher firing rates - more stable attractors - for increased excitatory gain).

      We thank the reviewer for the astute observation, which we entirely agree with. The energy landscape analysis is a method still under active development within our group and we are still learning how to best explain it and its relationship to more traditional ways of quantifying potential-like energy functions of dynamical systems which we think the reviewer has in mind. We have now included a second type of energy landscape analysis which gives a complementary perspective on the RNN dynamics and is more straightforwardly comparable to typical potential functions. We describe the new analysis in the section “Large-scale neural predictions of recurrent neural network model” as follows:

      “Crucially, there are two complementary viewpoints from which we can construct an energy landscape; the first allocentric (i.e., third-person view) perspective quantifies the energy associated with each position in state space, whereas the second egocentric (i.e., first person view) perspective quantifies the energy associated relative changes independent of the direction of movement or the location in state space. The allocentric perspective is straightforwardly comparable to the potential function of a dynamical system but can only be applied to low dimensional data in settings where a position-like quantity is meaningfully defined. The egocentric perspective is analogous to taking the point of view of a single particle in a physical setting and quantifying the energy associated with movement relative to the particles initial location. An egocentric framework is thus more applicable, when signal magnitude is relative rather than absolute. See materials and methods, and (see Fig S4 for an intuitive explanation of the allocentric and egocentric energy landscape analysis on a toy dynamical system).”

      From the allocentric perspective it is entirely true that increasing gain increases the depth of the landscape, equivalent to increasing the depth of the attractor. However, because the input to the network changes dynamically the location of the approximate fixed-point attractor changes and the network state “chases” this attractor over the course of the trial. Importantly, the location of the energy minima changes more rapidly as gain increases, effectively forcing the network to rapidly change course at the point of the perceptual switch (see Fig 4). To quantify this effect we constructed a new measure - neural work - which describes the amount of “force” exerted on the low-dimensional neural trajectory by the vector field quantified by the allocentric landscape. Specifically we treat the allocentric landscape as analogous to a potential function and then leverage the fact that force is equal to the negative gradient of potential energy to calculate the work (force x displacement) done on the low dimensional trajectory at each time point. This showed that as gain increases the amount of work done on the neuronal trajectory at turning points increases analogous to the application of an external force transiently increasing the kinetic energy of an object. From the perspective of the egocentric landscape this results in a flattening of the landscape as there is a lower energy (i.e. higher probability) assigned to large deviations in the neuronal trajectory around the perceptual switch.

      Because of the novelty of the analyses we went to great lengths to carefully explain the methods in the updated manuscript. In addition we wrote a short tutorial style MATLAB script implementing both the allocentric and egocentric landscape analysis on a toy dynamical system with a known potential function (a supercritical pitchfork bifurcation).

      (4) From the RNN model it is not clear how changes in excitatory and inhibitory gain lead to slower/faster switching. In order to better understand the role of inhibitory and excitatory gain on switching, I would suggest studying a simple discrete attractor model (a rate model, for example as in Wong and Wang 2006 or Roxin and Ledberg, Plos Comp. Bio 2008) which will allow to study these effects in terms of a very few model parameters. The Roxin paper also shows how to map rate models onto simplified one-dimensional systems such as the one in Fig S3. Setting up the model using this framework would allow for making much stronger, principled statements about how gain changes affect the energy landscape, and under which conditions increased inhibitory gain leads to faster switching.

      One possibility is that increasing the excitatory gain in the RNN leads to saturated firing rates. If this is the reason for the different effects of excitatory and inhibitory gain changes, it should be properly explained. Moreover, the biological relevance of this effect should be discussed (assuming that saturation is indeed the explanation).

      We thank the reviewer for this excellent suggestion. After some consideration we decided that studying a reduced model would likely not do justice to the dynamical mechanisms of RNN especially after making gain dynamical rather than stationary. Still we very much share the reviewer’s concern that we need a stronger link between the (now dynamical) gain alterations and energy landscape dynamics. To this end we now describe and interrogate the dynamics of the RNN at a circuit level through selectivity and lesion based analyses, at a population level through analysis of the dynamical regime traversed by the network, and finally, through an extended energy landscape framework which has far stronger links to traditional potential based descriptions of low-dimensional dynamical systems (also see to comment 3. above).

      At a circuit level the speeding of perceptual switches is mediated by inhibition of the initially dominant population we describe in paragraphs 7 and 8 of the section “Computational evidence for neuromodulatory-mediated perceptual switches in a recurrent neural network” as follows:

      “Having confirmed our hypothesis that increasing gain as a function of the network uncertainty increased the speed of perceptual switches, we next sought to understand the mechanisms governing this effect starting with the circuit level and working our way up to the population level (c.f. Sheringtonian and Hopfieldian modes of analysis(66)). Because of the constraint that the input and output weights are strictly positive, we could use their (normalised) value as a measure of stimulus selectivity. Inspection of the firing rates sorted by input weights revealed that the networks had learned to complete the task by segregating both excitatory and inhibitory units into two stimulus-selective clusters (Fig 2C). As the inhibitory units could not contribute to the networks read out, we hypothesised that they likely played an indirect role in perceptual switching by inhibiting the population of excitatory neurons selective for the currently dominant stimulus allowing the competing population to take over and a perceptual switch to occur.

      To test this hypothesis, we sorted the inhibitory units by the selectivity of the excitatory units they inhibit (i.e. by the normalised value of the readout weights). Inspecting the histogram of this selectivity metric revealed a bimodal distribution with peaks at each extreme strongly inhibiting a stimulus selective excitatory population at the exclusion of the other (Fig S2). Based on the fact that leading up to the perceptual switch point both the input and firing rate of the dominant population are higher than the competing population, we hypothesized that gain likely speeds perceptual switches by actively inhibiting the currently dominant population rather than exciting/disinhibiting the competing population. We predicted, therefore, that lesioning the inhibitory units selective for the stimulus that is initially dominant would dramatically slow perceptual switches, whilst lesioning the inhibitory units selective for the stimulus the input is morphing into would have a comparatively minor slowing effect on switch times since the population is not receiving sufficient input to take over until approximately half way through the trial irrespective of the inhibition it receives. As selectivity is not entirely one-to-one, we expect both lesions to slow perceptual switches but differ in magnitude. In line with our prediction, lesioning the inhibitory units strongly selective for the initially dominant population greatly slowed perceptual switches (Fig 3F upper), whereas lesioning the population selective for the stimulus the input morphs into removed the speeding effect of gain but had a comparatively small slowing effect on perceptual switches (Fig 3F lower).”

      At the population level we characterised the dynamics of the 2D parameter space (defined by gain and the difference between the input dimensions) traversed by the network over the course of a trial as input and gain dynamically change. We describe this paragraphs 9-14 of the section “Computational evidence for neuromodulatory-mediated perceptual switches in a recurrent neural network” which we reprint below for the reviewers convenience :

      “Based on the selectivity of the network firing rates we hypothesised that the dynamics were shaped by a fixed-point attractor whose location and existence were determined by gain and  and thus changed dynamically over the course of a single trial(67-70). Because of the large size of the network, we could not solve for the fixed points or study their stability analytically. Instead we opted for a numerical approach and characterised the dynamical regime (i.e. the location and existence of approximate fixed-point attractors) across all combinations of gain and  visited by the network. Specifically, for each combination of elements in the parameter space  we ran 100 simulations with initial conditions (firing rates) drawn from a uniform distribution between [0,1], and let the dynamics run for 10 seconds of simulation time (10 times the length of the task - longer simulation times did not qualitatively change the results) without noise. As we were interested in the existence of fixed-point attractors rather than their precise location, at each time point we computed the difference in firing rate between successive time points across the network. For each simulation we computed both the proportion of trials that converged to a value below  10^-2 giving us proxy for the presence of fixed points, and the time to convergence, giving us a measure of the “strength” of the attractor.

      Across gain values when input had unambiguous values, the network rapidly converged across all initialisations (Fig 3A & 3C-H). When input became ambiguous, however, the dynamics acquired a decaying oscillation and did not converge within the time frame of the simulation. As gain increased, the range of  values characterised by oscillatory dynamics broadened. Crucially, for sufficiently high values of gain, ambiguous  values transitioned the network into a regime characterised by high amplitude inhibition-driven oscillations (Fig 3D & 3G). Each trial can, therefore, be characterised by a trajectory through this 2-dimensional parameter space, with dynamics shaped by the dynamical regimes of each location visited (Fig 3A-B).

      When uncertainty has a small impact on gain the network has a trajectory through an initial regime characterised by the rapid convergence to a fixed point where the population representing the initial stimulus dominated whilst the other was silent (Fig 3C), an uncertain regime characterised by oscillations with all neurons partially activated (Fig 3D), and after passing through the oscillatory regime, the network once again enters a new fixed-point regime where the population representing the initial stimulus is now silent and the other is dominant (Fig 3E).

      For high gain trails, the network again started and finished in states characterised by a rapid convergence to a fixed point representing the dominant input dimension (Fig 3F-H), but differed in how it transitioned between these states. Uncertain inputs now generated high amplitude oscillations with the network flip-flopping between active and silent states (Fig 3G). We hypothesised that, within the task, this has the effect of silencing the initially dominant population, and boosting the competing population. To test this we initialised each network with parameter values well inside the oscillatory regime (u = [ .5, .5]  , gain = 1.5) with initial conditions determined by the selectivity of each unit. Excitatory units selective for input dimension 1, as well as the associated inhibitory units projecting to this population, were fully activated, whilst the excitatory units selective for  input dimension 2 and the associated inhibitory units were silenced. As we predicted, when initialised in this state the network dynamics displayed an out of phase oscillation where the initially dominant population was rapidly silenced and the competing population was boosted after a brief delay (219 (ms), +/-114 Fig S3).”

      From this we concluded that at a population level, heightened gain leading up to the perceptual switch speeds the switch by transiently pushing the dynamics into an unstable dynamical regime replacing the fixed-point attractor representing the input with an oscillatory regime that actively inhibits the currently dominant population and boosts the competing population before transitioning back into a regime with a stable (approximate) fixed-point attractor representing the new stimulus (Fig 3F-H & Fig S3).

      As we describe in the our response to comment 3 above our extended energy-landscape analysis framework now includes an explicit link between the potential of the dynamical system and allocentric landscape, whilst also explaining how a transient deepening of the allocentric landscape (which can be essentially thought of analogous to a traditional potential function) relates to the flattening of the egocentric landscape.

      Finally, whilst we appreciate the interest in further characterising the effect of inhibitory gain compared with excitatory gain the topic is is largely orthogonal the aims of our paper so we have removed the discussion of inhibitory vs excitatory gain. Still, we understand that we need to do our due diligence and check that our results do not break down when we manipulate either inhibitory or excitatory gain in isolation. To this end we checked that dynamical gain still speeded perceptual switches when the effect was isolated to inhibitory or excitatory cells in isolation. We show the behavioural plots below for the reviewer’s interest.

      Author response image 1.

      Switch time as a function of uncertainty forcing

      Alternative mechanisms:

      It is mentioned in the introduction that changes in attention could drive perceptual switches. A priori, attention signals originating in the frontal cortex may be plausible mechanisms for perceptual switches, as an alternative to LC-controlled gain modulation. Does the observed fMRI dynamics allow us to distinguish these two hypotheses? In any case, I would suggest including alternative scenarios that may be compatible with the observed findings in the discussion.

      We agree with the reviewer, in that attention is itself a confound and a process that is challenging to disentangle from the perceptual switching process in the current task. Importantly, we were not arguing for exclusivity in our manuscript, but merely testing the veracity of the hypothesis that the ascending arousal system may play a causal role in mediating and/or speeding perceptual switches. Future work with experiments that more specifically aim to dissociate these different features will be required to tease apart these different possibilities.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Strengths

      - the study combines different methods (pupillometry, RNNs, fMRI).

      - the study combines different viewpoints and fields of the scientific literature, including neuroscience, psychology, physics, dynamical systems.

      - This combination of methods and viewpoints is rarely done, it is thus very useful.

      - Overall well-written.

      Weaknesses

      - The study relies on a report paradigm: participants report when they identify a switch in the item category. The sequence corresponds to the drawing of an object being gradually morphed into another object. Perceptual switches are therefore behaviorally relevant, and it is not clear whether the effect reported correspond to the perceptual switch per se, or the detection of an event that should change behavior (participant press a button indicating the perceived category, and thus switch buttons when they identify a perceptual change). The text mentions that motor actions are controlled for, but this fact only indicates that a motor action is performed on each trial (not only on the switch trial); there is still a motor change confounded with the switch. As a result, it is not clear whether the effect reported in pupil size, brain dynamics, and brain states is related to a perceptual change, or a decision process (to report this change).

      We agree with the reviewer that the coupling of the motor change with the perceptual switch is confounded to some degree, but since motor preparation occurs on every trial we suspect that it is more accurate to describe it as confounded with task-relevance more than motor preparation per se.  While it is possible that pupil diameter, network topology and energy landscape features are all related to motor change rather than the perceptual switch, we note that the weight of evidence is against this interpretation, given the simple mechanistic explanation created by the coupling of perceptual uncertainty to network gain.

      - The study presents events that co-occur (perceptual switch, change in pupil size, energy landscape of brain dynamics) but we cannot identify the causes and consequences. Yet, the paper makes several claims about causality (e.g. in the abstract "neuromodulatory tone ... causally mediates perceptual switches", in the results "the system flattening the energy landscape ... facilitated an updating of the content of perception").

      We have made an effort to soften the causal language, where appropriate. In addition, we note that we have changed the title to “Gain neuromodulation mediates task-relevant perceptual switches: evidence from pupillometry, fMRI, and RNN Modelling” to reflect the fact that our claims do not extent to cases of perceptual switches where the stimulus is only passively observed.

      - Some effects may reflect the expectation of a perceptual switch, rather than the perceptual switch per se. Given the structure of the task, participants know that there will be a perceptual switch occurring once during a sequence of morphed drawings. This change is expected to occur roughly in the middle of the sequence, making early switches more surprising, and later switches less surprising. Differences in pupil response to early, medium, and late switches could reflect this expectation. The authors interpret this effect very differently ("the speed of a perceptual switch should be dependent on LC activity").

      The task includes catch trials designed to reduce the expectation of a perceptual switch. In these trials, a perceptual switch occurs either earlier or later than usual. While these trials are valuable for mitigating predictability, we did not focus extensively on them, as they were thoroughly discussed in the original paper. Additionally, due to the limited number of catch trials, it is difficult—if not impossible—to calculate a reliable mean surprise per image set.

      It is also worth noting that the pupil study does not include catch trials, which could contribute to differences in how perceptual switches are processed and interpreted between the fMRI and pupil experiments.

      - The RNN is far more complex than needed for the task. It has two input units that indicate the level of evidence for the two categories being morphed, and it is trained to output the dominant category. A (non-recurrent) network with only these two units and an output unit whose activity is a sigmoid transform of the difference in the inputs can solve the task perfectly. The RNN activity is almost 1-dimensional probably for this reason. In addition, the difficult part of the computation done by the human brain in this task is already solved in the input that is provided to the network (the brain is not provided with the evidence level for each category, and in fact, it does not know in advance what the second category will be).

      We agree that a simpler model could perform the task. We opted to use an RNN rather than hand craft a simpler model as we wanted to use the model as both a method of hypothesis testing and hypothesis generation. We now expand on and justify this modelling choice in the second paragraph of the discussion (also see our response to Reviewer 1 comment 4):

      “We chose to use an RNN, instead of a simpler (more transparent) model as we wanted to use the RNN as a means of both hypothesis generation and hypothesis testing. Specifically, unlike more standard neuronal models which are handcrafted to reproduce a specific effect, when building an RNN the modeller only specifies the network inputs, labels, and the parameter constraints (e.g. Dale’s law) in advance. The dynamics of the RNN are entirely determined by optimisation. Post-training manipulations of the RNN are not built in, or in any way guaranteed to work, making them more analogous to experimental manipulations of an approximately task-optimal brain-like system. Confirmatory results are arguably, therefore, a first steps towards an in vitro experimental test.”

      In other words, a simpler model would not have been appropriate to the aims. In addition we note that low dimensional dynamics are extremely common in the RNN literature and are in no way unique to our model. 

      - Basic fMRI results are missing and would be useful, before using elaborate analyses. For instance, what are the regions that are more active when a switch is detected?

      We explicitly chose to not run a standard voxelwise statistical parametric approach on these data, as the results were reported extensively in the original study (Stottinger et al., 2018).

      - The use of methods from physics may obscure some simple facts and simpler explanations. For instance, does the flatter energy landscape in the higher gain condition reflect a smaller number of states visited in the state space of the RNN because the activity of each unit gets in the saturation range? If correct, then it may be a more straightforward way of explaining the results.

      We appreciate the reviewer's concern as this would indeed be a problem. However, this is not the case for our network. At the time point of the perceptual switch where the egocentric landscape dynamics are at their flattest the RNN firing rates are approximately 50% activated nowhere near the saturation point. In addition, a flatter landscape in the egocentric and allocentric landscape analyses only occurs - mathematically speaking - when there are more states visited not less.

      In addition, we note that we are very sympathetic to the complexity of our physics based analyses and have gone to great lengths to describe them in an accessible manner in both the main text and methods. We have also included tutorial style code demonstrating how the analysis can be used on a toy dynamical system in the supplementary material.

      - Some results are not as expected as the authors claim, at least in the current form of the paper. For instance, they show that, when trained to identify which of two inputs u1 and u2 is the largest (with u2=1-u1, starting with u1=1 and gradually decreasing u1), a higher gain results in the RNN reporting a switch in dominance before the true switch (e.g. when u1=0.6 and u2=0.4), and vice et versa with a lower gain. In other words, it seems to correspond to a change in criterion or bias in the RNN's decision. The authors should discuss more specifically how this result is related to previous studies and models on gain modulation. An alternative finding could have been that the network output is a more (or less) deterministic function of its inputs, but this aspect is not reported.

      We appreciate this comment but it is simply not applicable to our network. There is no criterion in the RNN. We could certainly add one but this would be a significant departure from how decisions are typically modelled in RNNs. The (deterministic) readout is the max of the projection of the (instantaneous) excitatory firing rate onto the readout weights. A shift in criterion would imply that the dynamics are unaffected and the effect can be explained by a shift in the readout weights; this cannot be the case because the readout weights are stationary the change occurs at the level of the activation function.

      We are aware that there is a large literature in decision making and psychophysics that uses the term gain in a slightly different way. Here we are strictly referring to the gain of the activation function. Although we agree that it would be interesting and important to discuss the differing uses of the term gain, this is beyond the scope of the present paper.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We would like to thank the reviewers for their thoughtful comments and constructive suggestions. Point-by-point responses to comments are given below:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      This manuscript provides an important case study for in-depth research on the adaptability of vertebrates in deep-sea environments. Through analysis of the genomic data of the hadal snailfish, the authors found that this species may have entered and fully adapted to extreme environments only in the last few million years. Additionally, the study revealed the adaptive features of hadal snailfish in terms of perceptions, circadian rhythms and metabolisms, and the role of ferritin in high-hydrostatic pressure adaptation. Besides, the reads mapping method used to identify events such as gene loss and duplication avoids false positives caused by genome assembly and annotation. This ensures the reliability of the results presented in this manuscript. Overall, these findings provide important clues for a better understanding of deep-sea ecosystems and vertebrate evolution.

      Reply: Thank you very much for your positive comments and encouragement.

      However, there are some issues that need to be further addressed.

      1. L119: Please indicate the source of any data used.

      Reply: Thank you very much for the suggestion. All data sources used are indicated in Supplementary file 1.

      1. L138: The demographic history of hadal snailfish suggests a significant expansion in population size over the last 60,000 years, but the results only show some species, do the results for all individuals support this conclusion?

      Reply: Thank you for this suggestion. The estimated demographic history of the hadal snailfish reveals a significant population increase over the past 60,000 years for all individuals. The corresponding results have been incorporated into Figure 1-figure supplements 8B.

      Author response image 1.

      (B) Demographic history for 5 hadal snailfish individuals and 2 Tanaka’s snailfish individuals inferred by PSMC. The generation time of one year for Tanaka snailfish and three years for hadal snailfish.

      1. Figure 1-figure supplements 8: Is there a clear source of evidence for the generation time of 1 year chosen for the PSMC analysis?

      Reply: We apologize for the inclusion of an incorrect generation time in Figure 1-figure supplements 8. It is important to note that different generation times do not change the shape of the PSMC curve, they only shift the curve along the axis. Due to the absence of definitive evidence regarding the generation time of the hadal snailfish, we have referred to Wang et al., 2019, assuming a generation time of one year for Tanaka snailfish and three years for hadal snailfish. The generation time has been incorporated into the main text (lines 516-517): “The generation time of one year for Tanaka snailfish and three years for hadal snailfish.”.

      1. L237: Transcriptomic data suggest that the greatest changes in the brain of hadal snailfish compared to Tanaka's snailfish, what functions these changes are specifically associated with, and how these functions relate to deep-sea adaptation.

      Reply: Thank you for this suggestion. Through comparative transcriptome analysis, we identified 3,587 up-regulated genes and 3,433 down-regulated genes in the brains of hadal snailfish compared to Tanaka's snailfish. Subsequently, we conducted Gene Ontology (GO) functional enrichment analysis on the differentially expressed genes, revealing that the up-regulated genes were primarily associated with cilium, DNA repair, protein binding, ATP binding, and microtubule-based movement. Conversely, the down-regulated genes were associated with membranes, GTP-binding, proton transmembrane transport, and synaptic vesicles, as shown in following table (Supplementary file 15). Previous studies have shown that high hydrostatic pressure induces DNA strand breaks and damage, and that DNA repair-related genes upregulated in the brain may help hadal snailfish overcome these challenges.

      Author response table 1.

      GO enrichment of expression up-regulated and down-regulated genes in hadal snailfish brain.

      We have added new results (Supplementary file 15) and descriptions to show the changes in the brains of hadal snailfish (lines 250-255): “Specifically, there are 3,587 up-regulated genes and 3,433 down-regulated genes in the brain of hadal snailfish compared to Tanaka snailfish, and Gene Ontology (GO) functional enrichment analyses revealed that up-regulated genes in the hadal snailfish are associated with cilium, DNA repair, and microtubule-based movement, while down-regulated genes are enriched in membranes, GTP-binding, proton transmembrane transport, and synaptic vesicles (Supplementary file 15).”

      1. L276: What is the relationship between low bone mineralization and deep-sea adaptation, and can low mineralization help deep-sea fish better adapt to the deep sea?

      Reply: Thank you for this suggestion. The hadal snailfish exhibits lower bone mineralization compared to Tanaka's snailfish, which may have facilitated its adaptation to the deep sea. On one hand, this reduced bone mineralization could have contributed to the hadal snailfish's ability to maintain neutral buoyancy without excessive energy expenditure. On the other hand, the lower bone mineralization may have also rendered their skeleton more flexible and malleable, enhancing their resilience to high hydrostatic pressure. Accordingly, we added the following new descriptions (lines 295-300): “Nonetheless, micro-CT scans have revealed shorter bones and reduced bone density in hadal snailfish, from which it has been inferred that this species has reduced bone mineralization (M. E. Gerringer et al., 2021); this may be a result of lowering density by reducing bone mineralization, allowing to maintain neutral buoyancy without expending too much energy, or it may be a result of making its skeleton more flexible and malleable, which is able to better withstand the effects of HHP.”

      1. L293: The abbreviation HHP was mentioned earlier in the article and does not need to be abbreviated here.

      Reply: Thank you for the correction. We have corrected the word. Line 315.

      1. L345: It should be "In addition, the phylogenetic relationships between different individuals clearly indicate that they have successfully spread to different trenches about 1.0 Mya".

      Reply: Thank you for the correction. We have corrected the word. Line 374.

      1. It is curious what functions are associated with the up-regulated and down-regulated genes in all tissues of hadal snailfish compared to Tanaka's snailfish, and what functions have hadal snailfish lost in order to adapt to the deep sea?

      Reply: Thank you for this suggestion. We added a description of this finding in the results section (lines 337-343): “Next, we identified 34 genes that are significantly more highly expressed in all organs of hadal snailfish in comparison to Tanaka’s snailfish and zebrafish, while only seven genes were found to be significantly more highly expressed in Tanaka’s snailfish using the same criterion (Figure 5-figure supplements 1). The 34 genes are enriched in only one GO category, GO:0000077: DNA damage checkpoint (Adjusted P-value: 0.0177). Moreover, five of the 34 genes are associated with DNA repair.” This suggests that up-regulated genes in all tissues in hadal snailfish are associated with DNA repair in response to DNA damage caused by high hydrostatic pressure, whereas down-regulated genes do not show enrichment for a particular function.

      Overall, the functions lost in hadal snailfish adapted to the deep sea are mainly related to the effects of the dark environment, which can be summarized as follows (lines 375-383): “The comparative genomic analysis revealed that the complete absence of light had a profound effect on the hadal snailfish. In addition to the substantial loss of visual genes and loss of pigmentation, many rhythm-related genes were also absent, although some rhythm genes were still present. The gene loss may not only come from relaxation of natural selection, but also for better adaptation. For example, the grpr gene copies are absent or down-regulated in hadal snailfish, which could in turn increased their activity in the dark, allowing them to survive better in the dark environment (Wada et al., 1997). The loss of gpr27 may also increase the ability of lipid metabolism, which is essential for coping with short-term food deficiencies (Nath et al., 2020).”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I have pointed out some of the examples that struck me as worthy of additional thought/writing/comments from the authors. Any changes/comments are relatively minor.

      Reply: Thank you very much for your positive comments on this work.

      For comparative transcriptome analyses, reads were mapped back to reference genomes and TPM values were obtained for gene-level count analyses. 1:1 orthologs were used for differential expression analyses. This is indeed the only way to normalize counts across species, by comparing the same gene set in each species. Differential expression statistics were run in DEseq2. This is a robust way to compare gene expression across species and where fold-change values are reported (e.g. Fig 3, creatively by coloring the gene name) the values are best-practice.

      In other places, TPM values are reported (e.g. Fig 2D, Fig 4C, Fig 5A, Fig 4-Fig supp 4) to illustrate expression differences within a tissue across species. The comparisons look robust, although it is not made clear how the values were obtained in all cases. For example, in Fig 2D the TPM values appear to be from eyes of individual fish, but in Fig 4C and 5A they must be some kind of average? I think that information should be added to the figure legends.

      Of note: TPM values are sensitive to the shape of the RNA abundance distribution from a given sample: A small number of very highly expressed genes might bias TPM values downward for other genes. From one individual to another or from one species to another, it is not obvious to me that we should expect the same TPM distribution from the same tissues, making it a challenging metric for comparison across samples, and especially across species. An alternative measure of RNA abundance is normalized counts that can be output from DEseq2. See:

      Zhao, Y., Li, M.C., Konaté, M.M., Chen, L., Das, B., Karlovich, C., Williams, P.M., Evrard, Y.A., Doroshow, J.H. and McShane, L.M., 2021. TPM, FPKM, or normalized counts? A comparative study of quantification measures for the analysis of RNA-seq data from the NCI patient-derived models repository. Journal of translational medicine, 19(1), pp.1-15.

      If the authors would like to keep the TPM values, I think it would be useful for them to visualize the TPM value distribution that the numbers were derived from. One way to do this would be to make a violin plot for species/tissue and plot the TPM values of interest on that. That would give a visualization of the ranked value of the gene within the context of all other TPM values. A more highly expressed gene would presumably have a higher rank in context of the specific tissue/species and be more towards the upper tail of the distribution. An example violin plot can be found in Fig 6 of:

      Burns, J.A., Gruber, D.F., Gaffney, J.P., Sparks, J.S. and Brugler, M.R., 2022. Transcriptomics of a Greenlandic Snailfish Reveals Exceptionally High Expression of Antifreeze Protein Transcripts. Evolutionary Bioinformatics, 18, p.11769343221118347.

      Alternatively, a comparison of TPM and normalized count data (heatmaps?) would be of use for at least some of the reported TPM values to show whether the different normalization methods give comparable outputs in terms of differential expression. One reason for these questions is that DEseq2 uses normalized counts for statistical analyses, but values are expressed as TPM in the noted figures (yes, TPM accounts for transcript length, but can still be subject to distribution biases).

      Reply: Thank you for your suggestions. Following your suggestions, we modified Fig 2D, Fig 4C, Fig 4-Fig supp 4, and Fig 5-Fig supp 1, respectively. In the differential expression analyses, only one-to-one orthologues of hadal snailfish and Tanaka's snailfish can get the normalized counts output by DEseq2, so we showed the normalized counts by DEseq2 output for Fig 2D, Fig 4C, Fig 4-Fig supp 4, Fig 5-Fig supp 1, and for Fig 5A, since the copy number of fthl27 genes undergoes specific expansion in hadal snailfish, we visualized the ranking of all fthl27 genes across tissues by plotting violins in Fig 5-Fig supp 2.

      Author response image 2.

      (D) Log10-transformation normalized counts for DESeq2 (COUNTDESEQ2) of vision-related genes in the eyes of hadal snailfish and Tanka's snailfish. * represents genes significantly downregulated in hadal snailfish (corrected P < 0.05).

      Author response image 3.

      (C) The deletion of one copy of grpr and another copy of down-regulated expression in hadal snailfish. The relative positions of genes on chromosomes are indicated by arrows, with arrows to the right representing the forward strand and arrows to the left representing the reverse strand. The heatmap presented is the average of the normalized counts for DESeq2 (COUNTDESEQ2) in all replicate samples from each tissue. * represents tissue in which the grpr-1 was significantly down-regulated in hadal snailfish (corrected P < 0.05).

      Author response image 4.

      Expression of the vitamin D related genes in various tissues of hadal snailfish and Tanaka's snailfish. The heatmap presented is the average of the normalized counts for DESeq2 (COUNTDESEQ2) in all replicate samples from each tissue.

      Author response image 5.

      (B) Expression of the ROS-related genes in different tissues of hadal snailfish and Tanaka's snailfish. The heatmap presented is the average of the normalized counts for DESeq2 (COUNTDESEQ2) in all replicate samples from each tissue.

      Author response image 6.

      Ranking of the expression of individual copies of fthl27 gene in hadal snailfish and Tanaka's snailfish in various tissues showed that all copies of fthl27 in hadal snailfish have high expression. The gene expression presented is the average of TPM in all replicate samples from each tissue.

      Line 96: Which BUSCOs? In the methods it is noted that the actinopterygii_odb10 BUSCO set was used. I think it should also be noted here so that it is clear which BUSCO set was used for completeness analysis. It could even be informally the ray-finned fish BUSCOs or Actinopterygii BUSCOs.

      Reply: Thank you for this suggestion. We used Actinopterygii_odb10 database and we added the BUSCO set to the main text as follows (lines 92-95): “The new assembly filled 1.26 Mb of gaps that were present in our previous assembly and have a much higher level of genome continuity and completeness (with complete BUSCOs of 96.0 % [Actinopterygii_odb10 database]) than the two previous assemblies.”

      Lines 102-105: The medaka genome paper proposes the notion that the ancestral chromosome number between medaka, tetraodon, and zebrafish is 24. There may be other evidence of that too. Some of that evidence should be cited here to support the notion that sticklebacks had chromosome fusions to get to 21 chromosomes rather than scorpionfish having chromosome fissions to get to 24. Here's the medaka genome paper:

      Kasahara, M., Naruse, K., Sasaki, S., Nakatani, Y., Qu, W., Ahsan, B., Yamada, T., Nagayasu, Y., Doi, K., Kasai, Y. and Jindo, T., 2007. The medaka draft genome and insights into vertebrate genome evolution. Nature, 447(7145), pp.714-719.

      Reply: Thank you for your great suggestion. Accordingly, we modified the sentence and added the citation as follows (lines 100-105): “We noticed that there is no major chromosomal rearrangement between hadal snailfish and Tanaka’s snailfish, and chromosome numbers are consistent with the previously reported MTZ-ancestor (the last common ancestor of medaka, Tetraodon, and zebrafish) (Kasahara et al., 2007), while the stickleback had undergone several independent chromosomal fusion events (Figure 1-figure supplements 4).”

      Line 161-173: "Along with the expression data, we noticed that these genes exhibit a different level of relaxation of natural selection in hadal snailfish (Figure 2B; Figure 2-figure supplements 1)." With the above statment and evidence, the authors are presumably referring to gene losses and differences in expression levels. I think that since gene expression was not measured in a controlled way it may not be a good measure of selection throughout. The reported genes could be highly expressed under some other condition, selection intact. I find Fig2-Fig supp 1 difficult to interpret. I assume I am looking for regions where Tanaka’s snailfish reads map and Hadal snailfish reads do not, but it is not abundantly clear. Also, other measures of selection might be good to investigate: accumulation of mutations in the region could be evidence of relaxed selection, for example, where essential genes will accumulate fewer mutations than conditional genes or (presumably) genes that are not needed at all. The authors could complete a mutational/SNP analysis using their genome data on the discussed genes if they want to strengthen their case for relaxed selection. Here is a reference (from Arabidopsis) showing these kinds of effects:

      Monroe, J.G., Srikant, T., Carbonell-Bejerano, P., Becker, C., Lensink, M., Exposito-Alonso, M., Klein, M., Hildebrandt, J., Neumann, M., Kliebenstein, D. and Weng, M.L., 2022. Mutation bias reflects natural selection in Arabidopsis thaliana. Nature, 602(7895), pp.101-105.

      Reply: Thank you for pointing out this important issue. Following your suggestion, we have removed the mention of the down-regulation of some visual genes in the eyes of hadal snailfish and the results of the original Fig2-Fig supp 1 that were based on reads mapping to confirm whether the genes were lost or not. To investigate the potential relaxation of natural selection in the opn1sw2 gene in hadal snailfish, we conducted precise gene structure annotation. Our findings revealed that the opn1sw2 gene is pseudogenized in hadal snailfish, indicating a relaxation of natural selection. We have included this result in Figure 2-figure supplements 1.

      Author response image 7.

      Pseudogenization of opn1sw2 in hadal snailfish. The deletion changed the protein’s sequence, causing its premature termination.

      Accordingly, we have toned down the related conclusions in the main text as follows (lines 164-173): “We noticed that the lws gene (long wavelength) has been completely lost in both hadal snailfish and Tanaka’s snailfish; rh2 (central wavelength) has been specifically lost in hadal snailfish (Figure 2B and 2C); sws2 (short wavelength) has undergone pseudogenization in hadal snailfish (Figure 2-figure supplements 1); while rh1 and gnat1 (perception of very dim light) is both still present and expressed in the eyes of hadal snailfish (Figure 2D). A previous study has also proven the existence of rhodopsin protein in the eyes of hadal snailfish using proteome data (Yan, Lian, Lan, Qian, & He, 2021). The preservation and expression of genes for the perception of very dim light suggests that they are still subject to natural selection, at least in the recent past.”

      Line 161-170: What tissue were the transcripts derived from for looking at expression level of opsins? Eyes?

      Reply: Thank you for your suggestions. The transcripts used to observe the expression levels of optic proteins were obtained from the eye.

      Line 191: What does tmc1 do specifically?

      Reply: Thank you for this suggestion. The tmc1 gene encodes transmembrane channel-like protein 1, involved in the mechanotransduction process in sensory hair cells of the inner ear that facilitates the conversion of mechanical stimuli into electrical signals used for hearing and homeostasis. We added functional annotations for the tmc1 in the main text (lines 190-196): “Of these, the most significant upregulated gene is tmc1, which encodes transmembrane channel-like protein 1, involved in the mechanotransduction process in sensory hair cells of the inner ear that facilitates the conversion of mechanical stimuli into electrical signals used for hearing and homeostasis (Maeda et al., 2014), and some mutations in this gene have been found to be associated with hearing loss (Kitajiri, Makishima, Friedman, & Griffith, 2007; Riahi et al., 2014).”

      Line 208: "it is likely" is a bit proscriptive

      Reply: Thank you for this suggestion. We rephrased the sentence as follows (lines 213-215): “Expansion of cldnj was observed in all resequenced individuals of the hadal snailfish (Supplementary file 10), which provides an explanation for the hadal snailfish breaks the depth limitation on calcium carbonate deposition and becomes one of the few species of teleost in hadal zone.”

      Line 199: maybe give a little more info on exactly what cldnj does? e.g. "cldnj encodes a claudin protein that has a role in tight junctions through calcium independent cell-adhesion activity" or something like that.

      Reply: Thank you for this suggestion. We have added functional annotations for the cldnj to the main text (lines 200-204): “Moreover, the gene involved in lifelong otolith mineralization, cldnj, has three copies in hadal snailfish, but only one copy in other teleost species, encodes a claudin protein that has a role in tight junctions through calcium independent cell-adhesion activity (Figure 3B, Figure 3C) (Hardison, Lichten, Banerjee-Basu, Becker, & Burgess, 2005).”

      Lines 199-210: Paragraph on cldnj: there are extra cldnj genes in the hadal snailfish, but no apparent extra expression. Could the authors mention that in their analysis/discussion of the data?

      Reply: Thank you for your suggestions. Despite not observing significant changes in cldnj expression in the brain tissue of hadal snailfish compared to Tanaka's snailfish, it is important to consider that the brain may not be the primary site of cldnj expression. Previous studies in zebrafish have consistently shown expression of cldnj in the otocyst during the critical early growth phase of the otolith, with a lower level of expression observed in the zebrafish brain. However, due to the unavailability of otocyst samples from hadal snailfish in our current study, our findings do not provide confirmation of any additional expression changes resulting from cldnj amplification. Consequently, it is crucial to conduct future comprehensive investigations to explore the expression patterns of cldnj specifically in the otocyst of hadal snailfish. Accordingly, we added a discussion of this result in the main text (lines 209-214): “In our investigation, we found that the expression of cldnj was not significantly up-regulated in the brain of the hadal snailfish than in Tanaka’s snailfish, which may be related to the fact that cldnj is mainly expressed in the otocyst, while the expression in the brain is lower. However, due to the immense challenge in obtaining samples of hadal snailfish, the expression of cldnj in the otocyst deserves more in-depth study in the future.”

      Lines 225-231: I wonder whether low expression of a circadian gene might be a time of day effect rather than an evolutionary trait. Could the authors comment?

      Reply: Thank you for your suggestions. Previous studies have shown that the grpr gene is expressed relatively consistently in mouse suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) throughout the day (Figure 4-figure supplements 1) and we hypothesize that the low expression of grpr-1 gene expression in hadal snailfish is an evolutionary trait. We have modified this result in the main text (lines 232-242): “In addition, in the teleosts closely related to hadal snailfish, there are usually two copies of grpr encoding the gastrin-releasing peptide receptor; we noticed that in hadal snailfish one of them is absent and the other is barely expressed in brain (Figure 4C), whereas a previous study found that the grpr gene in the mouse suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) did not fluctuate significantly during a 24-hour light/dark cycle and had a relatively stable expression (Pembroke, Babbs, Davies, Ponting, & Oliver, 2015) (Figure 4-figure supplements 1). It has been reported that grpr deficient mice, while exhibiting normal circadian rhythms, show significantly increased locomotor activity in dark conditions (Wada et al., 1997; Zhao et al., 2023). We might therefore speculate that the absence of that gene might in some way benefit the activity of hadal snailfish under complete darkness.”

      Author response image 8.

      (B) Expression of the grpr in a 24-hour light/dark cycle in the mouse suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN). Data source with http://www.wgpembroke.com/shiny/SCNseq.

      Line 253: What is gpr27? G protein coupled receptor?

      Reply: We apologize for the ambiguous description. Gpr27 is a G protein-coupled receptor, belonging to the family of cell surface receptors. We introduced gpr27 in the main text as follows (lines 270-273): “Gpr27 is a G protein-coupled receptor, belonging to the family of cell surface receptors, involved in various physiological processes and expressed in multiple tissues including the brain, heart, kidney, and immune system.”

      Line 253: Fig4 Fig supp 3 is a good example of pseudogenization!

      Reply: Thank you very much for your recognition.

      Line 279: What is bglap? It regulates bone mineralization, but what specifically does that gene do?

      Reply: We apologize for the ambiguous description. The bglap gene encodes a highly abundant bone protein secreted by osteoblasts that binds calcium and hydroxyapatite and regulates bone remodeling and energy metabolism. We introduced bglap in the main text as follows (lines 300-304): “The gene bglap, which encodes a highly abundant bone protein secreted by osteoblasts that binds calcium and hydroxyapatite and regulates bone remodeling and energy metabolism, had been found to be a pseudogene in hadal fish (K. Wang et al., 2019), which may contribute to this phenotype.”

      Line 299: Introduction of another gene without providing an exact function: acaa1.

      Reply: We apologize for the ambiguous description. The acaa1 gene encodes acetyl-CoA acetyltransferase 1, a key regulator of fatty acid β-oxidation in the peroxisome, which plays a controlling role in fatty acid elongation and degradation. We introduced acaa1 in the main text as follows (lines 319-324): “In regard to the effect of cell membrane fluidity, relevant genetic alterations had been identified in previous studies, i.e., the amplification of acaa1 (encoding acetyl-CoA acetyltransferase 1, a key regulator of fatty acid β-oxidation in the peroxisome, which plays a controlling role in fatty acid elongation and degradation) may increase the ability to synthesize unsaturated fatty acids (Fang et al., 2000; K. Wang et al., 2019).”

      Fig 5 legend: The DCFH-DA experiment is not an immunofluorescence assay. It is better described as a redox-sensitive fluorescent probe. Please take note throughout.

      Reply: Thank you for pointing out our mistakes. We corrected the word. Line 1048 and 1151 as follows: “ROS levels were confirmed by redox-sensitive fluorescent probe using DCFH-DA molecular probe in 293T cell culture medium with or without fthl27-overexpression plasmid added with H2O2 or FAC for 4 hours.”

      Line 326: Manuscript notes that ROS levels in transfected cells are "significantly lower" than the control group, but there is no quantification or statistical analysis of ROS levels. In the methods, I noticed the mention of flow cytometry, but do not see any data from that experiment. Proportion of cells with DCFH-DA fluorescence above a threshold would be a good statistic for the experiment... Another could be average fluorescence per cell. Figure 5B shows some images with green dots and it looks like more green in the "control" (which could better be labeled as "mock-transfection") than in the fthl27 overexpression, but this could certainly be quantified by flow cytometry. I recommend that data be added.

      Reply: Thank you for your suggestions. We apologize for the error in the main text, we used a fluorescence microscope to observe fluorescence in our experiments, not a flow cytometer. We have corrected it in the methods section as follows (lines 651-653): “ROS levels were measured using a DCFH-DA molecular probe, and fluorescence was observed through a fluorescence microscope with an optional FITC filter, with the background removed to observe changes in fluorescence.” Meanwhile, we processed the images with ImageJ to obtain the respective mean fluorescence intensities (MFI) and found that the MFI of the fthl27-overexpression cells were lower than the control group, which indicated that the ROS levels of the fthl27-overexpression cells were significantly lower than the control group. MFI has been added to Figure 5B.

      Author response image 9.

      ROS levels were confirmed by redox-sensitive fluorescent probe using DCFH-DA molecular probe in 293T cell culture medium with or without fthl27-overexpression plasmid added with H2O2 or FAC for 4 hours. Images are merged from bright field images with fluorescent images using ImageJ, while the mean fluorescence intensity (MFI) is also calculated using ImageJ. Green, cellular ROS. Scale bars equal 100 μm.

      Regarding the ROS experiment: Transfection of HEK293T cells should be reasonably straightforward, and the experiment was controlled appropriately with a mock transfection, but some additional parameters are still needed to help interpret the results. Those include: Direct evidence that the transfection worked, like qPCR, western blots (is the fthl27 tagged with an antigen?), coexpression of a fluorescent protein. Then transfection efficiency should be calculated and reported.

      Reply: Thank you for your suggestions. To assess the success of the transfection, we randomly selected a subset of fthl27-transfected HEK293T cells for transcriptome sequencing. This approach allowed us to examine the gene expression profiles and confirm the efficacy of the transfection process. As control samples, we obtained transcriptome data from two untreated HEK293T cells (SRR24835259 and SRR24835265) from NCBI. Subsequently, we extracted the fthl27 gene sequence of the hadal snailfish, along with 1,000 bp upstream and downstream regions, as a separate scaffold. This scaffold was then merged with the human genome to assess the expression levels of each gene in the three transcriptome datasets. The results demonstrated that the fthl27 gene exhibited the highest expression in fthl27-transfected HEK293T cells, while in the control group, the expression of the fthl27 gene was negligible (TPM = 0). Additionally, the expression patterns of other highly expressed genes were similar to those observed in the control group, confirming the successful fthl27 transfection. These findings have been incorporated into Figure 5-figure supplements 3.

      Author response image 10.

      (B) Reads depth of fthl27 gene in fthl27-transfected HEK293T cells and 2 untreated HEK293T cells (SRR24835259 and SRR24835265) transcriptome data. (C) Expression of each gene in the transcriptome data of fthl27-transfected HEK293T cells and 2 untreated HEK293T cells (SRR24835259 and SRR24835265), where the genes shown are the 4 most highly expressed genes in each sample.

      Lines 383-386: expression of DNA repair genes is mentioned, but not shown anywhere in the results?

      Reply: Thank you for your suggestions. Accordingly, we added a description of this finding in the results section (lines 337-343): “Next, we identified 34 genes that are significantly more highly expressed in all organs of hadal snailfish in comparison to Tanaka’s snailfish and zebrafish, while only seven genes were found to be significantly more highly expressed in Tanaka’s snailfish using the same criterion (Figure 5-figure supplements 1). The 34 genes are enriched in only one GO category, GO:0000077: DNA damage checkpoint (Adjusted P-value: 0.0177). Moreover, five of the 34 genes are associated with DNA repair.”. And we added the information in the Figure 5-figure supplements 1C.

      Author response image 11.

      (C) Genes were significantly more highly expressed in all tissues of the hadal snailfish compared to Tanaka's snailfish, and 5 genes (purple) were associated with DNA repair.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This important study explores infants' attention patterns in real-world settings using advanced protocols and cutting-edge methods. The presented evidence for the role of EEG theta power in infants' attention is currently incomplete. The study will be of interest to researchers working on the development and control of attention.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The paper investigates the physiological and neural processes that relate to infants' attention allocation in a naturalistic setting. Contrary to experimental paradigms that are usually employed in developmental research, this study investigates attention processes while letting the infants be free to play with three toys in the vicinity of their caregiver, which is closer to a common, everyday life context. The paper focuses on infants at 5 and 10 months of age and finds differences in what predicts attention allocation. At 5 months, attention episodes are shorter and their duration is predicted by autonomic arousal. At 10 months, attention episodes are longer, and their duration can be predicted by theta power. Moreover, theta power predicted the proportion of looking at the toys, as well as a decrease in arousal (heart rate). Overall, the authors conclude that attentional systems change across development, becoming more driven by cortical processes.

      Strengths:

      I enjoyed reading the paper, I am impressed with the level of detail of the analyses, and I am strongly in favour of the overall approach, which tries to move beyond in-lab settings. The collection of multiple sources of data (EEG, heart rate, looking behaviour) at two different ages (5 and 10 months) is a key strength of this paper. The original analyses, which build onto robust EEG preprocessing, are an additional feat that improves the overall value of the paper. The careful consideration of how theta power might change before, during, and in the prediction of attention episodes is especially remarkable. However, I have a few major concerns that I would like the authors to address, especially on the methodological side.

      Points of improvement

      (1) Noise

      The first concern is the level of noise across age groups, periods of attention allocation, and metrics. Starting with EEG, I appreciate the analysis of noise reported in supplementary materials. The analysis focuses on a broad level (average noise in 5-month-olds vs 10-month-olds) but variations might be more fine-grained (for example, noise in 5mos might be due to fussiness and crying, while at 10 months it might be due to increased movements). More importantly, noise might even be the same across age groups, but correlated to other aspects of their behaviour (head or eye movements) that are directly related to the measures of interest. Is it possible that noise might co-vary with some of the behaviours of interest, thus leading to either spurious effects or false negatives? One way to address this issue would be for example to check if noise in the signal can predict attention episodes. If this is the case, noise should be added as a covariate in many of the analyses of this paper. 

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We certainly have evidence that even the most state-of-the-art cleaning procedures (such as machine-learning trained ICA decompositions, as we applied here) are unable to remove eye movement artifact entirely from EEG data (Haresign et al., 2021; Phillips et al., 2023). (This applies to our data but also to others’ where confounding effects of eye movements are generally not considered.) Importantly, however, our analyses have been designed very carefully with this explicit challenge in mind. All of our analyses compare changes in the relationship between brain activity and attention as a function of age, and there is no evidence to suggest that different sources of noise (e.g. crying vs. movement) would associate differently with attention durations nor change their interactions with attention over developmental time. And figures 5 and 7, for example, both look at the relationship of EEG data at one moment in time to a child’s attention patterns hundreds or thousands of milliseconds before and after that moment, for which there is no possibility that head or eye movement artifact can have systematically influenced the results.

      Moving onto the video coding, I see that inter-rater reliability was not very high. Is this due to the fine-grained nature of the coding (20ms)? Is it driven by differences in expertise among the two coders? Or because coding this fine-grained behaviour from video data is simply too difficult? The main dependent variable (looking duration) is extracted from the video coding, and I think the authors should be confident they are maximising measurement accuracy.

      We appreciate the concern. To calculate IRR we used this function (Cardillo G. (2007) Cohen's kappa: compute the Cohen's kappa ratio on a square matrix. http://www.mathworks.com/matlabcentral/fileexchange/15365). Our “Observed agreement” was 0.7 (std= 0.15). However, we decided to report the Cohen's kappa coefficient, which is generally thought to be a more robust measure as it takes into account the agreement occurring by chance. We conducted the training meticulously (refer to response to Q6, R3), and we have confidence that our coders performed to the best of their abilities.

      (2) Cross-correlation analyses

      I would like to raise two issues here. The first is the potential problem of using auto-correlated variables as input for cross-correlations. I am not sure whether theta power was significantly autocorrelated. If it is, could it explain the cross-correlation result? The fact that the cross-correlation plots in Figure 6 peak at zero, and are significant (but lower) around zero, makes me think that it could be a consequence of periods around zero being autocorrelated. Relatedly: how does the fact that the significant lag includes zero, and a bit before, affect the interpretation of this effect? 

      Just to clarify this analysis, we did include a plot showing autocorrelation of theta activity in the original submission (Figs 7A and 7B in the revised paper). These indicate that theta shows little to no autocorrelation. And we can see no way in which this might have influenced our results. From their comments, the reviewer seems rather to be thinking of phasic changes in the autocorrelation, and whether the possibility that greater stability in theta during the time period around looks might have caused the cross-correlation result shown in 7E. Again though we can see no way in which this might be true, as the cross-correlation indicates that greater theta power is associated with a greater likelihood of looking, and this would not have been affected by changes in the autocorrelation.

      A second issue with the cross-correlation analyses is the coding of the looking behaviour. If I understand correctly, if an infant looked for a full second at the same object, they would get a maximum score (e.g., 1) while if they looked at 500ms at the object and 500ms away from the object, they would receive a score of e.g., 0.5. However, if they looked at one object for 500ms and another object for 500ms, they would receive a maximum score (e.g., 1). The reason seems unclear to me because these are different attention episodes, but they would be treated as one. In addition, the authors also show that within an attentional episode theta power changes (for 10mos). What is the reason behind this scoring system? Wouldn't it be better to adjust by the number of attention switches, e.g., with the formula: looking-time/(1+N_switches), so that if infants looked for a full second, but made 1 switch from one object to the other, the score would be .5, thus reflecting that attention was terminated within that episode? 

      We appreciate this suggestion. This is something we did not consider, and we thank the reviewer for raising it. In response to their comment, we have now rerun the analyses using the new measure (looking-time/(1+N_switches), and we are reassured to find that the results remain highly consistent. Please see Author response image 1 below where you can see the original results in orange and the new measure in blue at 5 and 10 months.

      Author response image 1.

      (3) Clearer definitions of variables, constructs, and visualisations

      The second issue is the overall clarity and systematicity of the paper. The concept of attention appears with many different names. Only in the abstract, it is described as attention control, attentional behaviours, attentiveness, attention durations, attention shifts and attention episode. More names are used elsewhere in the paper. Although some of them are indeed meant to describe different aspects, others are overlapping. As a consequence, the main results also become more difficult to grasp. For example, it is stated that autonomic arousal predicts attention, but it's harder to understand what specific aspect (duration of looking, disengagement, etc.) it is predictive of. Relatedly, the cognitive process under investigation (e.g., attention) and its operationalization (e.g., duration of consecutive looking toward a toy) are used interchangeably. I would want to see more demarcation between different concepts and between concepts and measurements.

      We appreciate the comment and we have clarified the concepts and their operationalisation throughout the revised manuscript.

      General Remarks

      In general, the authors achieved their aim in that they successfully showed the relationship between looking behaviour (as a proxy of attention), autonomic arousal, and electrophysiology. Two aspects are especially interesting. First, the fact that at 5 months, autonomic arousal predicts the duration of subsequent attention episodes, but at 10 months this effect is not present. Conversely, at 10 months, theta power predicts the duration of looking episodes, but this effect is not present in 5-month-old infants. This pattern of results suggests that younger infants have less control over their attention, which mostly depends on their current state of arousal, but older infants have gained cortical control of their attention, which in turn impacts their looking behaviour and arousal.

      We thank the reviewer for the close attention that they have paid to our manuscript, and for their insightful comments.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript explores infants' attention patterns in real-world settings and their relationship with autonomic arousal and EEG oscillations in the theta frequency band. The study included 5- and 10-month-old infants during free play. The results showed that the 5-month-old group exhibited a decline in HR forward-predicted attentional behaviors, while the 10-month-old group exhibited increased theta power following shifts in gaze, indicating the start of a new attention episode. Additionally, this increase in theta power predicted the duration of infants' looking behavior.

      Strengths:

      The study's strengths lie in its utilization of advanced protocols and cutting-edge techniques to assess infants' neural activity and autonomic arousal associated with their attention patterns, as well as the extensive data coding and processing. Overall, the findings have important theoretical implications for the development of infant attention.

      Weaknesses:

      Certain methodological procedures require further clarification, e.g., details on EEG data processing. Additionally, it would be beneficial to eliminate possible confounding factors and consider alternative interpretations, e,g., whether the differences observed between the two age groups were partly due to varying levels of general arousal and engagement during the free play.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestions and have addressed them in our point-by-point responses below.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Much of the literature on attention has focused on static, non-contingent stimuli that can be easily controlled and replicated--a mismatch with the actual day-to-day deployment of attention. The same limitation is evident in the developmental literature, which is further hampered by infants' limited behavioral repertoires and the general difficulty in collecting robust and reliable data in the first year of life. The current study engages young infants as they play with age-appropriate toys, capturing visual attention, cardiac measures of arousal, and EEG-based metrics of cognitive processing. The authors find that the temporal relations between measures are different at age 5 months vs. age 10 months. In particular, at 5 months of age, cardiac arousal appears to precede attention, while at 10 months of age attention processes lead to shifts in neural markers of engagement, as captured in theta activity.

      Strengths:

      The study brings to the forefront sophisticated analytical and methodological techniques to bring greater validity to the work typically done in the research lab. By using measures in the moment, they can more closely link biological measures to actual behaviors and cognitive stages. Often, we are forced to capture these measures in separate contexts and then infer in-the-moment relations. The data and techniques provide insights for future research work.

      Weaknesses:

      The sample is relatively modest, although this is somewhat balanced by the sheer number of data points generated by the moment-to-moment analyses. In addition, the study is cross-sectional, so the data cannot capture true change over time. Larger samples, followed over time, will provide a stronger test for the robustness and reliability of the preliminary data noted here. Finally, while the method certainly provides for a more active and interactive infant in testing, we are a few steps removed from the complexity of daily life and social interactions.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestions and have addressed them in our point-by-point responses below.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Here are some specific ways in which clarity can be improved:

      A. Regarding the distinction between constructs, or measures and constructs:

      i. In the results section, I would prefer to mention looking at duration and heart rate as metrics that have been measured, while in the introduction and discussion, a clear 1-to-1 link between construct/cognitive process and behavioural or (neuro)psychophysical measure can be made (e.g., sustained attention is measured via looking durations; autonomic arousal is measured via heart-rate). 

      The way attention and arousal were operationalised are now clarified throughout the text, especially in the results.

      ii. Relatedly, the "attention" variable is not really measuring attention directly. It is rather measuring looking time (proportion of looking time to the toys?), which is the operationalisation, which is hypothesised to be related to attention (the construct/cognitive process). I would make the distinction between the two stronger.

      This distinction between looking and paying attention is clearer now in the reviewed manuscript as per R1 and R3’s suggestions. We have also added a paragraph in the Introduction to clarify it and pointed out its limitations (see pg.5).

      B. Each analysis should be set out to address a specific hypothesis. I would rather see hypotheses in the introduction (without direct reference to the details of the models that were used), and how a specific relation between variables should follow from such hypotheses. This would also solve the issue that some analyses did not seem directly necessary to the main goal of the paper. For example:

      i. Are ACF and survival probability analyses aimed at proving different points, or are they different analyses to prove the same point? Consider either making clearer how they differ or moving one to supplementary materials.

      We clarified this in pg. 4 of the revised manuscript.

      ii. The autocorrelation results are not mentioned in the introduction. Are they aiming to show that the variables can be used for cross-correlation? Please clarify their role or remove them.

      We clarified this in pg. 4 of the revised manuscript.

      C. Clarity of cross-correlation figures. To ensure clarity when presenting a cross-correlation plot, it's important to provide information on the lead-lag relationships and which variable is considered X and which is Y. This could be done by labelling the axes more clearly (e.g., the left-hand side of the - axis specifies x leads y, right hand specifies y leads x) or adding a legend (e.g., dashed line indicates x leading y, solid line indicates y leading x). Finally, the limits of the x-axis are consistent across plots, but the limits of the y-axis differ, which makes it harder to visually compare the different plots. More broadly, the plots could have clearer labels, and their resolution could also be improved. 

      This information on what variable precedes/ follows was in the caption of the figures. However, we have edited the figures as per the reviewer’s suggestion and added this information in the figures themselves. We have also uploaded all the figures in higher resolution.

      D. Figure 7 was extremely helpful for understanding the paper, and I would rather have it as Figure 1 in the introduction. 

      We have moved figure 7 to figure 1 as per this request.

      E. Statistics should always be reported, and effects should always be described. For example, results of autocorrelation are not reported, and from the plot, it is also not clear if the effects are significant (the caption states that red dots indicate significance, but there are no red dots. Does this mean there is no autocorrelation?).

      We apologise – this was hard to read in the original. We have clarified that there is no autocorrelation present in Fig 7A and 7D.

      And if so, given that theta is a wave, how is it possible that there is no autocorrelation (connected to point 1)? 

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point. In fact, theta power is looking at oscillatory activity in the EEG within the 3-6Hz window (i.e. 3 to 6 oscillations per second). Whereas we were analysing the autocorrelation in the EEG data by looking at changes in theta power between consecutive 1 second long windows. To say that there is no autocorrelation in the data means that, if there is more 3-6Hz activity within one particular 1-second window, there tends not to be significantly more 3-6Hz activity within the 1-second windows immediately before and after.

      F. Alpha power is introduced later on, and in the discussion, it is mentioned that the effects that were found go against the authors' expectations. However, alpha power and the authors' expectations about it are not mentioned in the introduction. 

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have added a paragraph on alpha in the introduction (pg.4).

      Minor points:

      1. At the end of 1st page of introduction, the authors state that: 

      “How children allocate their attention in experimenter-controlled, screen-based lab tasks differs, however, from actual real-world attention in several ways (32-34). For example, the real-world is interactive and manipulable, and so how we interact with the world determines what information we, in turn, receive from it: experiences generate behaviours (35).”

      I think there's more to this though - Lab-based studies can be made interactive too (e.g., Meyer et al., 2023, Stahl & Feigenson, 2015). What remains unexplored is how infants actively and freely initiate and self-structure their attention, rather than how they respond to experimental manipulations.

      Meyer, M., van Schaik, J. E., Poli, F., & Hunnius, S. (2023). How infant‐directed actions enhance infants' attention, learning, and exploration: Evidence from EEG and computational modeling. Developmental Science, 26(1), e13259.

      Stahl, A. E., & Feigenson, L. (2015). Observing the unexpected enhances infants' learning and exploration. Science, 348(6230), 91-94.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and added their point in pg. 4.

      (2) Regarding analysis 4:

      a. In analysis 1 you showed that the duration of attentional episodes changes with age. Is it fair to keep the same start, middle, and termination ranges across age groups? Is 3-4 seconds "middle" for 5-month-olds? 

      We appreciate the comment. There are many ways we could have run these analyses and, in fact, in other papers we have done it differently, for example by splitting each look in 3, irrespective of its duration (Phillips et al., 2023).

      However, one aspect we took into account was the observation that 5-month-old infants exhibited more shorter looks compared to older infants. We recognized that dividing each into 3 parts, regardless of its duration, might have impacted the results. Presumably, the activity during the middle and termination phases of a 1.5-second look differs from that of a look lasting over 7 seconds.

      Two additional factors that provided us with confidence in our approach were: 1) while the definition of "middle" was somewhat arbitrary, it allowed us to maintain consistency in our analyses across different age points. And, 2) we obtained a comparable amount of observations across the two time points (e.g. “middle” at 5 months we had 172 events at 5 months, and 194 events at 10 months).

      b. It is recommended not to interpret lower-level interactions if more complex interactions are not significant. How are the interaction effects in a simpler model in which the 3-way interaction is removed? 

      We appreciate the comment. We tried to follow the same steps as in (Xie et al., 2018). However, we have re-analysed the data removing the 3-way interaction and the significance of the results stayed the same. Please see Author response image 2 below (first: new analyses without the 3-way interactions, second: original analyses that included the 3-way interaction).

      Author response image 2.

      (3) Figure S1: there seems to be an outlier in the bottom-right panel. Do results hold excluding it? 

      We re-run these analyses as per this suggestion and the results stayed the same (refer to SM pg. 2).

      (4) Figure S2 should refer to 10 months instead of 12.

      We thank the reviewer for noticing this typo, we have changed it in the reviewed manuscript (see SM pg. 3). 

      (5) In the 2nd paragraph of the discussion, I found this sentence unclear: "From Analysis 1 we found that infants at both ages showed a preferred modal reorientation rate". 

      We clarified this in the reviewed manuscript in pg10

      (6) Discussion: many (infant) studies have used theta in anticipation of receiving information (Begus et al., 2016) surprising events (Meyer et al., 2023), and especially exploration (Begus et al., 2015). Can you make a broader point on how these findings inform our interpretation of theta in the infant population (go more from description to underlying mechanisms)? 

      We have extended on this point on interpreting frequency bands in pg13 of the reviewed manuscript and thank the reviewer for bringing it up.

      Begus, K., Gliga, T., & Southgate, V. (2016). Infants' preferences for native speakers are associated with an expectation of information. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 113(44), 12397-12402.

      Meyer, M., van Schaik, J. E., Poli, F., & Hunnius, S. (2023). How infant‐directed actions enhance infants' attention, learning, and exploration: Evidence from EEG and computational modeling. Developmental Science, 26(1), e13259.

      Begus, K., Southgate, V., & Gliga, T. (2015). Neural mechanisms of infant learning: differences in frontal theta activity during object exploration modulate subsequent object recognition. Biology letters, 11(5), 20150041.

      (7) 2nd page of discussion, last paragraph: "preferred modal reorientation timer" is not a neural/cognitive mechanism, just a resulting behaviour. 

      We agree with this comment and thank the reviewer for bringing it out to our attention. We clarified this in in pg12 and pg13 of the reviewed manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I have a few comments and questions that I think the authors should consider addressing in a revised version. Please see below:

      (1) During preprocessing (steps 5 and 6), it seems like the "noisy channels" were rejected using the pop_rejchan.m function and then interpolated. This procedure is common in infant EEG analysis, but a concern arises: was there no upper limit for channel interpolation? Did the authors still perform bad channel interpolation even when more than 30% or 40% of the channels were identified as "bad" at the beginning with the continuous data? 

      We did state in the original manuscript that “participants with fewer than 30% channels interpolated at 5 months and 25% at 10 months made it to the final step (ICA) and final analyses”. In the revised version we have re-written this section in order to make this more clear (pg. 17).

      (2) I am also perplexed about the sequencing of the ICA pruning step. If the intention of ICA pruning is to eliminate artificial components, would it be more logical to perform this procedure before the conventional artifacts' rejection (i.e., step 7), rather than after? In addition, what was the methodology employed by the authors to identify the artificial ICA components? Was it done through manual visual inspection or utilizing specific toolboxes? 

      We agree that the ICA is often run before, however, the decision to reject continuous data prior to ICA was to remove the very worst sections of data (where almost all channels were affected), which can arise during times when infants fuss or pull the caps. Thus, this step was applied at this point in the pipeline so that these sections of really bad data were not inputted into the ICA. This is fairly widespread practice in cleaning infant data.

      Concerning the reviewer’s second question, of how ICA components were removed – the answer to this is described in considerable detail in the paper that we refer to in that setion of the manuscript. This was done by training a classifier specially designed to clean naturalistic infant EEG data (Haresign et al., 2021) and has since been employed in similar studies (e.g. Georgieva et al., 2020; Phillips et al., 2023).

      (3) Please clarify how the relative power was calculated for the theta (3-6Hz) and alpha (6-9Hz) bands. Were they calculated by dividing the ratio of theta or alpha power to the power between 3 and 9Hz, or the total power between 1 (or 3) and 20 Hz? In other words, what does the term "all frequency bands" refer to in section 4.3.7? 

      We thank the reviewer for this comment, we have now clarified this in pg. 22.

      (4) One of the key discoveries presented in this paper is the observation that attention shifts are accompanied by a subsequent enhancement in theta band power shortly after the shifts occur. Is it possible that this effect or alteration might be linked to infants' saccades, which are used as indicators of attention shifts? Would it be feasible to analyze the disparities in amplitude between the left and right frontal electrodes (e.g., Fp1 and Fp2, which could be viewed as virtual horizontal EOG channels) in relation to theta band power, in order to eliminate the possibility that the augmentation of theta power was attributable to the intensity of the saccades? 

      We appreciate the concern. Average saccade duration in infants is about 40ms (Garbutt et al., 2007). Our finding that the positive cross-correlation between theta and look duration is present not only when we examine zero-lag data but also when we examine how theta forwards-predicts attention 1-2 seconds afterwards seems therefore unlikely to be directly attributable to saccade-related artifact. Concerning the reviewer’s suggestion – this is something that we have tried in the past. Unfortunately, however, our experience is that identifying saccades based on the disparity between Fp1 and Fp2 is much too unreliable to be of any use in analysing data. Even if specially positioned HEOG electrodes are used, we still find the saccade detection to be insufficiently reliable. In ongoing work we are tracking eye movements separately, in order to be able to address this point more satisfactorily.

      (5) The following question is related to my previous comment. Why is the duration of the relationship between theta power and moment-to-moment changes in attention so short? If theta is indeed associated with attention and information processing, shouldn't the relationship between the two variables strengthen as the attention episode progresses? Given that the authors themselves suggest that "One possible interpretation of this is that neural activity associates with the maintenance more than the initiation of attentional behaviors," it raises the question of (is in contradiction to) why the duration of the relationship is not longer but declines drastically (Figure 6). 

      We thank the reviewer for raising this excellent point. Certainly we argue that this, together with the low autocorrelation values for theta documented in Fig 7A and 7D challenge many conventional ways of interpreting theta. We are continuing to investigate this question in ongoing work.

      (6) Have the authors conducted a comparison of alpha relative power and HR deceleration durations between 5 and 10-month-old infants? This analysis could provide insights into whether the differences observed between the two age groups were partly due to varying levels of general arousal and engagement during free play.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. Indeed, this is an aspect we investigated but ultimately, given that our primary emphasis was on the theta frequency, and considering the length of the manuscript, we decided not to incorporate. However, we attached Author response image 3 below showing there was no significant interaction between HR and alpha band.

      Author response image 3.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) In reading the manuscript, the language used seems to imply longitudinal data or at the very least the ability to detect change or maturation. Given the cross-sectional nature of the data, the language should be tempered throughout. The data are illustrative but not definitive. 

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have now clarified that “Data was analysed in a cross-sectional manner” in pg15.

      (2) The sample size is quite modest, particularly in the specific age groups. This is likely tempered by the sheer number of data points available. This latter argument is implied in the text, but not as explicitly noted. (However, I may have missed this as the text is quite dense). I think more notice is needed on the reliability and stability of the findings given the sample. 

      We have clarified this in pg16.

      (3) On a related note, how was the sample size determined? Was there a power analysis to help guide decision-making for both recruitment and choosing which analyses to proceed with? Again, the analytic approach is quite sophisticated and the questions are of central interest to researchers, but I was left feeling maybe these two aspects of the study were out-sprinting the available data. The general impression is that the sample is small, but it is not until looking at table s7, that it is in full relief. I think this should be more prominent in the main body of the study.

      We have clarified this in pg16.

      (4) The devotes a few sentences to the relation between looking and attention. However, this distinction is central to the design of the study, and any philosophical differences regarding what take-away points can be generated. In my reading, I think this point needs to be more heavily interrogated. 

      This distinction between looking and paying attention is clearer now in the reviewed manuscript as per R1 and R3’s suggestions. We have also added a paragraph in the Introduction to clarify it and pointed out its limitations (see pg.5).

      (5) I would temper the real-world attention language. This study is certainly a great step forward, relative to static faces on a computer screen. However, there are still a great number of artificial constraints that have been added. That is not to say that the constraints are bad--they are necessary to carry out the work. However, it should be acknowledged that it constrains the external validity. 

      We have added a paragraph to acknowledged limitations of the setup in pg. 14.

      (6) The kappa on the coding is not strong. The authors chose to proceed nonetheless. Given that, I think more information is needed on how coders were trained, how they were standardized, and what parameters were used to decide they were ready to code independently. Again, with the sample size and the kappa presented, I think more discussion is needed regarding the robustness of the findings. 

      We appreciate the concern. As per our answer to R1, we chose to report the most stringent calculator of inter-rater reliability, but other calculation methods (i.e., percent agreement) return higher scores (see response to R1).

      As per the training, we wrote an extensively detailed coding scheme describing exactly how to code each look that was handed to our coders. Throughout the initial months of training, we meet with the coders on a weekly basis to discuss questions and individual frames that looked ambiguous. After each session, we would revise the coding scheme to incorporate additional details, aiming to make the coding process progressively less subjective. During this period, every coder analysed the same interactions, and inter-rater reliability (IRR) was assessed weekly, comparing their evaluations with mine (Marta). With time, the coders had fewer questions and IRR increased. At that point, we deemed them sufficiently trained, and began assigning them different interactions from each other. Periodically, though, we all assessed the same interaction and meet to review and discuss our coding outputs.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      These ingenious and thoughtful studies present important findings concerning how people represent and generalise abstract patterns of sensory data. The issue of generalisation is a core topic in neuroscience and psychology, relevant across a wide range of areas, and the findings will be of interest to researchers across areas in perception, learning, and cognitive science. The findings have the potential to provide compelling support for the outlined account, but there appear other possible explanations, too, that may affect the scope of the findings but could be considered in a revision.

      Thank you for sending the feedback from the three peer reviewers regarding our paper. Please find below our detailed responses addressing the reviewers' comments. We have incorporated these suggestions into the paper and provided explanations for the modifications made.

      We have specifically addressed the point of uncertainty highlighted in eLife's editorial assessment, which concerned alternative explanations for the reported effect. In response to Reviewer #1, we have clarified how Exp. 2c and Exp. 3c address the potential alternative explanation related to "attention to dimensions." Further, we present a supplementary analysis to account for differences in asymptotic learning, as noted by Reviewer #2. We have also clarified how our control experiments address effects associated with general cognitive engagement in the task. Lastly, we have further clarified the conceptual foundation of our paper, addressing concerns raised by Reviewers #2 and #3.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript reports a series of experiments examining category learning and subsequent generalization of stimulus representations across spatial and nonspatial domains. In Experiment 1, participants were first trained to make category judgments about sequences of stimuli presented either in nonspatial auditory or visual modalities (with feature values drawn from a two-dimensional feature manifold, e.g., pitch vs timbre), or in a spatial modality (with feature values defined by positions in physical space, e.g., Cartesian x and y coordinates). A subsequent test phase assessed category judgments for 'rotated' exemplars of these stimuli: i.e., versions in which the transition vectors are rotated in the same feature space used during training (near transfer) or in a different feature space belonging to the same domain (far transfer). Findings demonstrate clearly that representations developed for the spatial domain allow for representational generalization, whereas this pattern is not observed for the nonspatial domains that are tested. Subsequent experiments demonstrate that if participants are first pre-trained to map nonspatial auditory/visual features to spatial locations, then rotational generalization is facilitated even for these nonspatial domains. It is argued that these findings are consistent with the idea that spatial representations form a generalized substrate for cognition: that space can act as a scaffold for learning abstract nonspatial concepts.

      Strengths:

      I enjoyed reading this manuscript, which is extremely well-written and well-presented. The writing is clear and concise throughout, and the figures do a great job of highlighting the key concepts. The issue of generalization is a core topic in neuroscience and psychology, relevant across a wide range of areas, and the findings will be of interest to researchers across areas in perception and cognitive science. It's also excellent to see that the hypotheses, methods, and analyses were pre-registered.

      The experiments that have been run are ingenious and thoughtful; I particularly liked the use of stimulus structures that allow for disentangling of one-dimensional and two-dimensional response patterns. The studies are also well-powered for detecting the effects of interest. The model-based statistical analyses are thorough and appropriate throughout (and it's good to see model recovery analysis too). The findings themselves are clear-cut: I have little doubt about the robustness and replicability of these data.

      Weaknesses:

      I have only one significant concern regarding this manuscript, which relates to the interpretation of the findings. The findings are taken to suggest that "space may serve as a 'scaffold', allowing people to visualize and manipulate nonspatial concepts" (p13). However, I think the data may be amenable to an alternative possibility. I wonder if it's possible that, for the visual and auditory stimuli, participants naturally tended to attend to one feature dimension and ignore the other - i.e., there may have been a (potentially idiosyncratic) difference in salience between the feature dimensions that led to participants learning the feature sequence in a one-dimensional way (akin to the 'overshadowing' effect in associative learning: e.g., see Mackintosh, 1976, "Overshadowing and stimulus intensity", Animal Learning and Behaviour). By contrast, we are very used to thinking about space as a multidimensional domain, in particular with regard to two-dimensional vertical and horizontal displacements. As a result, one would naturally expect to see more evidence of two-dimensional representation (allowing for rotational generalization) for spatial than nonspatial domains.

      In this view, the impact of spatial pre-training and (particularly) mapping is simply to highlight to participants that the auditory/visual stimuli comprise two separable (and independent) dimensions. Once they understand this, during subsequent training, they can learn about sequences on both dimensions, which will allow for a 2D representation and hence rotational generalization - as observed in Experiments 2 and 3. This account also anticipates that mapping alone (as in Experiment 4) could be sufficient to promote a 2D strategy for auditory and visual domains.

      This "attention to dimensions" account has some similarities to the "spatial scaffolding" idea put forward in the article, in arguing that experience of how auditory/visual feature manifolds can be translated into a spatial representation helps people to see those domains in a way that allows for rotational generalization. Where it differs is that it does not propose that space provides a scaffold for the development of the nonspatial representations, i.e., that people represent/learn the nonspatial information in a spatial format, and this is what allows them to manipulate nonspatial concepts. Instead, the "attention to dimensions" account anticipates that ANY manipulation that highlights to participants the separable-dimension nature of auditory/visual stimuli could facilitate 2D representation and hence rotational generalization. For example, explicit instruction on how the stimuli are constructed may be sufficient, or pre-training of some form with each dimension separately, before they are combined to form the 2D stimuli.

      I'd be interested to hear the authors' thoughts on this account - whether they see it as an alternative to their own interpretation, and whether it can be ruled out on the basis of their existing data.

      We thank the Reviewer for their comments. We agree with the Reviewer that the “attention to dimensions” hypothesis is an interesting alternative explanation. However, we believe that the results of our control experiments Exp. 2c and Exp. 3c are incompatible with this alternative explanation.

      In Exp. 2c, participants are pre-trained in the visual modality and then tested in the auditory modality. In the multimodal association task, participants have to associate the auditory stimuli and the visual stimuli: on each trial, they hear a sound and then have to click on the corresponding visual stimulus. It is thus necessary to pay attention to both auditory dimensions and both visual dimensions to perform the task. To give an example, the task might involve mapping the fundamental frequency and the amplitude modulation of the auditory stimulus to the colour and the shape of the visual stimulus, respectively. If participants pay attention to only one dimension, this would lead to a maximum of 25% accuracy on average (because they would be at chance on the other dimension, with four possible options). We observed that 30/50 participants reached an accuracy > 50% in the multimodal association task in Exp. 2c. This means that we know for sure that at least 60% of the participants paid attention to both dimensions of the stimuli. Nevertheless, there was a clear difference between participants that received a visual pre-training (Exp. 2c) and those who received a spatial pre-training (Exp. 2a) (frequency of 1D vs 2D models between conditions, BF > 100 in near transfer and far transfer). In fact, only 3/50 participants were best fit by a 2D model when vision was the pre-training modality compared to 29/50 when space was the pre-training modality. Thus, the benefit of the spatial pre-training cannot be due solely to a shift in attention toward both dimensions.

      This effect was replicated in Exp. 3c. Similarly, 33/48 participants reached an accuracy > 50% in the multimodal association task in Exp. 3c, meaning that we know for sure that at least 68% of the participants actually paid attention to both dimensions of the stimuli. Again, there was a clear difference between participants who received a visual pre-training (frequency of 1D vs 2D models between conditions, Exp. 3c) and those who received a spatial pre-training (Exp. 3a) (BF > 100 in near transfer and far transfer).

      Thus, we believe that the alternative explanation raised by the Reviewer is not supported by our data. We have added a paragraph in the discussion:

      “One alternative explanation of this effect could be that the spatial pre-training encourages participants to attend to both dimensions of the non-spatial stimuli. By contrast, pretraining in the visual or auditory domains (where multiple dimensions of a stimulus may be relevant less often naturally) encourages them to attend to a single dimension. However, data from our control experiments Exp. 2c and Exp. 3c, are incompatible with this explanation. Around ~65% of the participants show a level of performance in the multimodal association task (>50%) which could only be achieved if they were attending to both dimensions (performance attending to a single dimension would yield 25% and chance performance is at 6.25%). This suggests that participants are attending to both dimensions even in the visual and auditory mapping case.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, L&S investigates the important general question of how humans achieve invariant behavior over stimuli belonging to one category given the widely varying input representation of those stimuli and more specifically, how they do that in arbitrary abstract domains. The authors start with the hypothesis that this is achieved by invariance transformations that observers use for interpreting different entries and furthermore, that these transformations in an arbitrary domain emerge with the help of the transformations (e.g. translation, rotation) within the spatial domain by using those as "scaffolding" during transformation learning. To provide the missing evidence for this hypothesis, L&S used behavioral category learning studies within and across the spatial, auditory, and visual domains, where rotated and translated 4-element token sequences had to be learned to categorize and then the learned transformation had to be applied in new feature dimensions within the given domain. Through single- and multiple-day supervised training and unsupervised tests, L&S demonstrated by standard computational analyses that in such setups, space and spatial transformations can, indeed, help with developing and using appropriate rotational mapping whereas the visual domain cannot fulfill such a scaffolding role.

      Strengths:

      The overall problem definition and the context of spatial mapping-driven solution to the problem is timely. The general design of testing the scaffolding effect across different domains is more advanced than any previous attempts clarifying the relevance of spatial coding to any other type of representational codes. Once the formulation of the general problem in a specific scientific framework is done, the following steps are clearly and logically defined and executed. The obtained results are well interpretable, and they could serve as a good stepping stone for deeper investigations. The analytical tools used for the interpretations are adequate. The paper is relatively clearly written.

      Weaknesses:

      Some additional effort to clarify the exact contribution of the paper, the link between analyses and the claims of the paper, and its link to previous proposals would be necessary to better assess the significance of the results and the true nature of the proposed mechanism of abstract generalization.

      (1) Insufficient conceptual setup: The original theoretical proposal (the Tolman-Eichenbaum-Machine, Whittington et al., Cell 2020) that L&S relate their work to proposes that just as in the case of memory for spatial navigation, humans and animals create their flexible relational memory system of any abstract representation by a conjunction code that combines on the one hand, sensory representation and on the other hand, a general structural representation or relational transformation. The TEM also suggests that the structural representation could contain any graph-interpretable spatial relations, albeit in their demonstration 2D neighbor relations were used. The goal of L&S's paper is to provide behavioral evidence for this suggestion by showing that humans use representational codes that are invariant to relational transformations of non-spatial abstract stimuli and moreover, that humans obtain these invariances by developing invariance transformers with the help of available spatial transformers. To obtain such evidence, L&S use the rotational transformation. However, the actual procedure they use actually solved an alternative task: instead of interrogating how humans develop generalizations in abstract spaces, they demonstrated that if one defines rotation in an abstract feature space embedded in a visual or auditory modality that is similar to the 2D space (i.e. has two independent dimensions that are clearly segregable and continuous), humans cannot learn to apply rotation of 4-piece temporal sequences in those spaces while they can do it in 2D space, and with co-associating a one-to-one mapping between locations in those feature spaces with locations in the 2D space an appropriate shaping mapping training will lead to the successful application of rotation in the given task (and in some other feature spaces in the given domain). While this is an interesting and challenging demonstration, it does not shed light on how humans learn and generalize, only that humans CAN do learning and generalization in this, highly constrained scenario. This result is a demonstration of how a stepwise learning regiment can make use of one structure for mapping a complex input into a desired output. The results neither clarify how generalizations would develop in abstract spaces nor the question of whether this generalization uses transformations developed in the abstract space. The specific training procedure ensures success in the presented experiments but the availability and feasibility of an equivalent procedure in a natural setting is a crucial part of validating the original claim and that has not been done in the paper.

      We thank the Reviewer for their detailed comments on our manuscript. We reply to the three main points in turn.

      First, concerning the conceptual grounding of our work, we would point out that the TEM model (Whittington et al., 2020), however interesting, is not our theoretical starting point. Rather, as we hope the text and references make clear, we ground our work in theoretical work from the 1990/2000s proposing that space acts as a scaffold for navigating abstract spaces (such as Gärdenfors, 2000). We acknowledge that the TEM model and other experimental work on the implication of the hippocampus, the entorhinal cortex and the parietal cortex in relational transformations of nonspatial stimuli provide evidence for this general theory. However, our work is designed to test a more basic question: whether there is behavioural evidence that space scaffolds learning in the first place. To achieve this, we perform behavioural experiments with causal manipulation (spatial pre-training vs no spatial pre-training) have the potential to provide such direct evidence. This is why we claim that:

      “This theory is backed up by proof-of-concept computational simulations [13], and by findings that brain regions thought to be critical for spatial cognition in mammals (such as the hippocampal-entorhinal complex and parietal cortex) exhibit neural codes that are invariant to relational transformations of nonspatial stimuli. However, whilst promising, this theory lacks direct empirical evidence. Here, we set out to provide a strong test of the idea that learning about physical space scaffolds conceptual generalisation.“

      Second, we agree with the Reviewer that we do not provide an explicit model for how generalisation occurs, and how precisely space acts as a scaffold for building representations and/or applying the relevant transformations to non-spatial stimuli to solve our task. Rather, we investigate in our Exp. 2-4 which aspects of the training are necessary for rotational generalisation to happen (and conclude that a simple training with the multimodal association task is sufficient for ~20% participants). We now acknowledge in the discussion the fact that we do not provide an explicit model and leave that for future work:

      “We acknowledge that our study does not provide a mechanistic model of spatial scaffolding but rather delineate which aspects of the training are necessary for generalisation to happen.”

      Finally, we also agree with the Reviewer that our task is non-naturalistic. As is common in experimental research, one must sacrifice the naturalistic elements of the task in exchange for the control and the absence of prior knowledge of the participants. We have decided to mitigate as possible the prior knowledge of the participants to make sure that our task involved learning a completely new task and that the pre-training was really causing the better learning/generalisation. The effects we report are consistent across the experiments so we feel confident about them but we agree with the Reviewer that an external validation with more naturalistic stimuli/tasks would be a nice addition to this work. We have included a sentence in the discussion:

      “All the effects observed in our experiments were consistent across near transfer conditions (rotation of patterns within the same feature space), and far transfer conditions (rotation of patterns within a different feature space, where features are drawn from the same modality). This shows the generality of spatial training for conceptual generalisation. We did not test transfer across modalities nor transfer in a more natural setting; we leave this for future studies.”

      (2) Missing controls: The asymptotic performance in experiment 1 after training in the three tasks was quite different in the three tasks (intercepts 2.9, 1.9, 1.6 for spatial, visual, and auditory, respectively; p. 5. para. 1, Fig 2BFJ). It seems that the statement "However, our main question was how participants would generalise learning to novel, rotated exemplars of the same concept." assumes that learning and generalization are independent. Wouldn't it be possible, though, that the level of generalization depends on the level of acquiring a good representation of the "concept" and after obtaining an adequate level of this knowledge, generalization would kick in without scaffolding? If so, a missing control is to equate the levels of asymptotic learning and see whether there is a significant difference in generalization. A related issue is that we have no information on what kind of learning in the three different domains was performed, albeit we probably suspect that in space the 2D representation was dominant while in the auditory and visual domains not so much. Thus, a second missing piece of evidence is the model-fitting results of the ⦰ condition that would show which way the original sequences were encoded (similar to Fig 2 CGK and DHL). If the reason for lower performance is not individual stimulus difficulty but the natural tendency to encode the given stimulus type by a combo of random + 1D strategy that would clarify that the result of the cross-training is, indeed, transferring the 2D-mapping strategy.

      We agree with the Reviewer that a good further control is to equate performance during training. Thus, we have run a complementary analysis where we select only the participants that reach > 90% accuracy in the last block of training in order to equate asymptotic performance after training in Exp. 1. The results (see Author response image 1) replicates the results that we report in the main text: there is a large difference between groups (relative likelihood of 1D vs. 2D models, all BF > 100 in favour of a difference between the auditory and the spatial modalities, between the visual and the spatial modalities, in both near and far transfer, “decisive” evidence). We prefer not to include this figure in the paper for clarity, and because we believe this result is expected given the fact that 0/50 and 0/50 of the participants in the auditory and visual condition used a 2D strategy – thus, selecting subgroups of these participants cannot change our conclusions.

      Author response image 1.

      Results of Exp. 1 when selecting participants that reached > 90% accuracy in the last block of training. Captions are the same as Figure 2 of the main text.

      Second, the Reviewer suggested that we run the model fitting analysis only on the ⦰ condition (training) in Exp. 1 to reveal whether participants use a 1D or a 2D strategy already during training. Unfortunately, we cannot provide the model fits only in the ⦰ condition in Exp. 1 because all models make the same predictions for this condition (see Fig S4). However, note that this is done by design: participants were free to apply whatever strategy they want during training; we then used the generalisation phase with the rotated stimuli precisely to reveal this strategy. Further, we do believe that the strategy used by the participants during training and the strategy during transfer are the same, partly because – starting from block #4 – participants have no idea whether the current trial is a training trial or a transfer trial, as both trial types are randomly interleaved with no cue signalling the trial type. We have made this clear in the methods:

      “They subsequently performed 105 trials (with trialwise feedback) and 105 transfer trials including rotated and far transfer quadruplets (without trialwise feedback) which were presented in mixed blocks of 30 trials. Training and transfer trials were randomly interleaved, and no clue indicated whether participants were currently on a training trial or a transfer trial before feedback (or absence of feedback in case of a transfer trial).”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Pesnot Lerousseau and Summerfield aimed to explore how humans generalize abstract patterns of sensory data (concepts), focusing on whether and how spatial representations may facilitate the generalization of abstract concepts (rotational invariance). Specifically, the authors investigated whether people can recognize rotated sequences of stimuli in both spatial and nonspatial domains and whether spatial pre-training and multi-modal mapping aid in this process.

      Strengths:

      The study innovatively examines a relatively underexplored but interesting area of cognitive science, the potential role of spatial scaffolding in generalizing sequences. The experimental design is clever and covers different modalities (auditory, visual, spatial), utilizing a two-dimensional feature manifold. The findings are backed by strong empirical data, good data analysis, and excellent transparency (including preregistration) adding weight to the proposition that spatial cognition can aid abstract concept generalization.

      Weaknesses:

      The examples used to motivate the study (such as "tree" = oak tree, family tree, taxonomic tree) may not effectively represent the phenomena being studied, possibly confusing linguistic labels with abstract concepts. This potential confusion may also extend to doubts about the real-life applicability of the generalizations observed in the study and raises questions about the nature of the underlying mechanism being proposed.

      We thank the Reviewer for their comments. We agree that we could have explained ore clearly enough how these examples motivate our study. The similarity between “oak tree” and “family tree” is not just the verbal label. Rather, it is the arrangement of the parts (nodes and branches) in a nested hierarchy. Oak trees and family trees share the same relational structure. The reason that invariance is relevant here is that the similarity in relational structure is retained under rigid body transformations such as rotation or translation. For example, an upside-down tree can still be recognised as a tree, just as a family tree can be plotted with the oldest ancestors at either top or bottom. Similarly, in our study, the quadruplets are defined by the relations between stimuli: all quadruplets use the same basic stimuli, but the categories are defined by the relations between successive stimuli. In our task, generalising means recognising that relations between stimuli are the same despite changes in the surface properties (for example in far transfer). We have clarify that in the introduction:

      “For example, the concept of a “tree” implies an entity whose structure is defined by a nested hierarchy, whether this is a physical object whose parts are arranged in space (such as an oak tree in a forest) or a more abstract data structure (such as a family tree or taxonomic tree). [...] Despite great changes in the surface properties of oak trees, family trees and taxonomic trees, humans perceive them as different instances of a more abstract concept defined by the same relational structure.”

      Next, the study does not explore whether scaffolding effects could be observed with other well-learned domains, leaving open the question of whether spatial representations are uniquely effective or simply one instance of a familiar 2D space, again questioning the underlying mechanism.

      We would like to mention that Reviewer #2 had a similar comment. We agree with both Reviewers that our task is non-naturalistic. As is common in experimental research, one must sacrifice the naturalistic elements of the task in exchange for the control and the absence of prior knowledge of the participants. We have decided to mitigate as possible the prior knowledge of the participants to make sure that our task involved learning a completely new task and that the pre-training was really causing the better learning/generalisation. The effects we report are consistent across the experiments so we feel confident about them but we agree with the Reviewer that an external validation with more naturalistic stimuli/tasks would be a nice addition to this work. We have included a sentence in the discussion:

      “All the effects observed in our experiments were consistent across near transfer conditions (rotation of patterns within the same feature space), and far transfer conditions (rotation of patterns within a different feature space, where features are drawn from the same modality). This shows the generality of spatial training for conceptual generalisation. We did not test transfer across modalities nor transfer in a more natural setting; we leave this for future studies.”

      Further doubt on the underlying mechanism is cast by the possibility that the observed correlation between mapping task performance and the adoption of a 2D strategy may reflect general cognitive engagement rather than the spatial nature of the task. Similarly, the surprising finding that a significant number of participants benefited from spatial scaffolding without seeing spatial modalities may further raise questions about the interpretation of the scaffolding effect, pointing towards potential alternative interpretations, such as shifts in attention during learning induced by pre-training without changing underlying abstract conceptual representations.

      The Reviewer is concerned about the fact that the spatial pre-training could benefit the participants by increasing global cognitive engagement rather than providing a scaffold for learning invariances. It is correct that the participants in the control group in Exp. 2c have poorer performances on average than participants that benefit from the spatial pre-training in Exp. 2a and 2b. The better performances of the participants in Exp. 2a and 2b could be due to either the spatial nature of the pre-training (as we claim) or a difference in general cognitive engagement. .

      However, if we look closely at the results of Exp. 3, we can see that the general cognitive engagement hypothesis is not well supported by the data. Indeed, the participants in the control condition (Exp. 3c) have relatively similar performances than the other groups during training. Rather, the difference is in the strategy they use, as revealed by the transfer condition. The majority of them are using a 1D strategy, contrary to the participants that benefited from a spatial pre-training (Exp 3a and 3b). We have included a sentence in the results:

      “Further, the results show that participants who did not experience spatial pre-training were still engaged in the task, but were not using the same strategy as the participants who experienced spatial pre-training (1D rather than 2D). Thus, the benefit of the spatial pre-training is not simply to increase the cognitive engagement of the participants. Rather, spatial pre-training provides a scaffold to learn rotation-invariant representation of auditory and visual concepts even when rotation is never explicitly shown during pre-training.”

      Finally, Reviewer #1 had a related concern about a potential alternative explanation that involved a shift in attention. We reproduce our response here: we agree with the Reviewer that the “attention to dimensions” hypothesis is an interesting (and potentially concerning) alternative explanation. However, we believe that the results of our control experiments Exp. 2c and Exp. 3c are not compatible with this alternative explanation.

      Indeed, in Exp. 2c, participants are pre-trained in the visual modality and then tested in the auditory modality. In the multimodal association task, participants have to associate the auditory stimuli and the visual stimuli: on each trial, they hear a sound and then have to click on the corresponding visual stimulus. It is necessary to pay attention to both auditory dimensions and both visual dimensions to perform well in the task. To give an example, the task might involve mapping the fundamental frequency and the amplitude modulation of the auditory stimulus to the colour and the shape of the visual stimulus, respectively. If participants pay attention to only one dimension, this would lead to a maximum of 25% accuracy on average (because they would be at chance on the other dimension, with four possible options). We observed that 30/50 participants reached an accuracy > 50% in the multimodal association task in Exp. 2c. This means that we know for sure that at least 60% of the participants actually paid attention to both dimensions of the stimuli. Nevertheless, there was a clear difference between participants that received a visual pre-training (Exp. 2c) and those who received a spatial pre-training (Exp. 2a) (frequency of 1D vs 2D models between conditions, BF > 100 in near transfer and far transfer). In fact, only 3/50 participants were best fit by a 2D model when vision was the pre-training modality compared to 29/50 when space was the pre-training modality. Thus, the benefit of the spatial pre-training cannot be due solely to a shift in attention toward both dimensions.

      This effect was replicated in Exp. 3c. Similarly, 33/48 participants reached an accuracy > 50% in the multimodal association task in Exp. 3c, meaning that we know for sure that at least 68% of the participants actually paid attention to both dimensions of the stimuli. Again, there was a clear difference between participants who received a visual pre-training (frequency of 1D vs 2D models between conditions, Exp. 3c) and those who received a spatial pre-training (Exp. 3a) (BF > 100 in near transfer and far transfer).

      Thus, we believe that the alternative explanation raised by the Reviewer is not supported by our data. We have added a paragraph in the discussion:

      “One alternative explanation of this effect could be that the spatial pre-training encourages participants to attend to both dimensions of the non-spatial stimuli. By contrast, pretraining in the visual or auditory domains (where multiple dimensions of a stimulus may be relevant less often naturally) encourages them to attend to a single dimension. However, data from our control experiments Exp. 2c and Exp. 3c, are incompatible with this explanation. Around ~65% of the participants show a level of performance in the multimodal association task (>50%) which could only be achieved if they were attending to both dimensions (performance attending to a single dimension would yield 25% and chance performance is at 6.25%). This suggests that participants are attending to both dimensions even in the visual and auditory mapping case.”

      Conclusions:

      The authors successfully demonstrate that spatial training can enhance the ability to generalize in nonspatial domains, particularly in recognizing rotated sequences. The results for the most part support their conclusions, showing that spatial representations can act as a scaffold for learning more abstract conceptual invariances. However, the study leaves room for further investigation into whether the observed effects are unique to spatial cognition or could be replicated with other forms of well-established knowledge, as well as further clarifications of the underlying mechanisms.

      Impact:

      The study's findings are likely to have a valuable impact on cognitive science, particularly in understanding how abstract concepts are learned and generalized. The methods and data can be useful for further research, especially in exploring the relationship between spatial cognition and abstract conceptualization. The insights could also be valuable for AI research, particularly in improving models that involve abstract pattern recognition and conceptual generalization.

      In summary, the paper contributes valuable insights into the role of spatial cognition in learning abstract concepts, though it invites further research to explore the boundaries and specifics of this scaffolding effect.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor issues / typos:

      P6: I think the example of the "signed" mapping here should be "e.g., ABAB maps to one category and BABA maps to another", rather than "ABBA maps to another" (since ABBA would always map to another category, whether the mapping is signed or unsigned).

      Done.

      P11: "Next, we asked whether pre-training and mapping were systematically associated with 2Dness...". I'd recommend changing to: "Next, we asked whether accuracy during pre-training and mapping were systematically associated with 2Dness...", just to clarify what the analyzed variables are.

      Done.

      P13, paragraph 1: "only if the features were themselves are physical spatial locations" either "were" or "are" should be removed.

      Done.

      P13, paragraph 1: should be "neural representations of space form a critical substrate" (not "for").

      Done.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors use in multiple places in the manuscript the phrases "learn invariances" (Abstract), "formation of invariances" (p. 2, para. 1), etc. It might be just me, but this feels a bit like 'sloppy' wording: we do not learn or form invariances, rather we learn or form representations or transformations by which we can perform tasks that require invariance over particular features or transformation of the input such as the case of object recognition and size- translation- or lighting-invariance. We do not form size invariance, we have representations of objects and/or size transformations allowing the recognition of objects of different sizes. The authors might change this way of referring to the phenomenon.

      We respectfully disagree with this comment. An invariance occurs when neurons make the same response under different stimulation patterns. The objects or features to which a neuron responds is shaped by its inputs. Those inputs are in turn determined by experience-dependent plasticity. This process is often called “representation learning”. We think that our language here is consistent with this status quo view in the field.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      • I understand that the objective of the present experiment is to study our ability to generalize abstract patterns of sensory data (concepts). In the introduction, the authors present examples like the concept of a "tree" (encompassing a family tree, an oak tree, and a taxonomic tree) and "ring" to illustrate the idea. However, I am sceptical as to whether these examples effectively represent the phenomena being studied. From my perspective, these different instances of "tree" do not seem to relate to the same abstract concept that is translated or rotated but rather appear to share only a linguistic label. For instance, the conceptual substance of a family tree is markedly different from that of an oak tree, lacking significant overlap in meaning or structure. Thus, to me, these examples do not demonstrate invariance to transformations such as rotations.

      To elaborate further, typically, generalization involves recognizing the same object or concept through transformations. In the case of abstract concepts, this would imply a shared abstract representation rather than a mere linguistic category. While I understand the objective of the experiments and acknowledge their potential significance, I find myself wondering about the real-world applicability and relevance of such generalizations in everyday cognitive functioning. This, in turn, casts some doubt on the broader relevance of the study's results. A more fitting example, or an explanation that addresses my concerns about the suitability of the current examples, would be beneficial to further clarify the study's intent and scope.

      Response in the public review.

      • Relatedly, the manuscript could benefit from greater clarity in defining key concepts and elucidating the proposed mechanism behind the observed effects. Is it plausible that the changes observed are primarily due to shifts in attention induced by the spatial pre-training, rather than a change in the process of learning abstract conceptual invariances (i.e., modifications to the abstract representations themselves)? While the authors conclude that spatial pre-training acts as a scaffold for enhancing the learning of conceptual invariances, it raises the question: does this imply participants simply became more focused on spatial relationships during learning, or might this shift in attention represent a distinct strategy, and an alternative explanation? A more precise definition of these concepts and a clearer explanation of the authors' perspective on the mechanism underlying these effects would reduce any ambiguity in this regard.

      Response in the public review.

      • I am wondering whether the effectiveness of spatial representations in generalizing abstract concepts stems from their special nature or simply because they are a familiar 2D space for participants. It is well-established that memory benefits from linking items to familiar locations, a technique used in memory training (method of loci). This raises the question: Are we observing a similar effect here, where spatial dimensions are the only tested familiar 2D spaces, while the other 2 spaces are simply unfamiliar, as also suggested by the lower performance during training (Fig.2)? Would the results be replicable with another well-learned, robustly encoded domain, such as auditory dimensions for professional musicians, or is there something inherently unique about spatial representations that aids in bootstrapping abstract representations?

      On the other side of the same coin, are spatial representations qualitatively different, or simply more efficient because they are learned more quickly and readily? This leads to the consideration that if visual pre-training and visual-to-auditory mapping were continued until a similar proficiency level as in spatial training is achieved, we might observe comparable performance in aiding generalization. Thus, the conclusion that spatial representations are a special scaffold for abstract concepts may not be exclusively due to their inherent spatial nature, but rather to the general characteristic of well-established representations. This hypothesis could be further explored by either identifying alternative 2D representations that are equally well-learned or by extending training in visual or auditory representations before proceeding with the mapping task. At the very least I believe this potential explanation should be explored in the discussion section.

      Response in the public review.

      I had some difficulty in following an important section of the introduction: "... whether participants can learn rotationally invariant concepts in nonspatial domains, i.e., those that are defined by sequences of visual and auditory features (rather than by locations in physical space, defined in Cartesian or polar coordinates) is not known." This was initially puzzling to me as the paragraph preceding it mentions: "There is already good evidence that nonspatial concepts are represented in a translation invariant format." While I now understand that the essential distinction here is between translation and rotation, this was not immediately apparent upon first reading. This crucial distinction, especially in the context of conceptual spaces, was not clearly established before this point in the manuscript. For better clarity, it would be beneficial to explicitly contrast and define translation versus rotation in this particular section and stress that the present study concerns rotations in abstract spaces.

      Done.

      • The multi-modal association is crucial for the study, however to my knowledge, it is not depicted or well explained in the main text or figures (Results section). In my opinion, the details of this task should be explained and illustrated before the details of the associated results are discussed.

      We have included an illustration of a multimodal association trial in Fig. S3B.

      Author response image 2.

      • The observed correlation between the mapping task performance and the adoption of a 2D strategy is logical. However, this correlation might not exclusively indicate the proposed underlying mechanism of spatial scaffolding. Could it also be reflective of more general factors like overall performance, attention levels, or the effort exerted by participants? This alternative explanation suggests that the correlation might arise from broader cognitive engagement rather than specifically from the spatial nature of the task. Addressing this possibility could strengthen the argument for the unique role of spatial representations in learning abstract concepts, or at least this alternative interpretation should be mentioned.

      Response in the public review.

      • To me, the finding that ~30% of participants benefited from the spatial scaffolding effect for example in the auditory condition merely through exposure to the mapping (Fig 4D), without needing to see the quadruplets in the spatial modality, was somewhat surprising. This is particularly noteworthy considering that only ~60% of participants adopted the 2D strategy with exposure to rotated contingencies in Experiment 3 (Fig 3D). How do the authors interpret this outcome? It would be interesting to understand their perspective on why such a significant effect emerged from mere exposure to the mapping task.

      • I appreciate the clarity Fig.1 provides in explaining a challenging experimental setup. Is it possible to provide example trials, including an illustration that shows which rotations produce the trail and an intuitive explanation that response maps onto the 1D vs 2D strategies respectively, to aid the reader in better understanding this core manipulation?

      • I like that the authors provide transparency by depicting individual subject's data points in their results figures (e.g. Figs. 2 B, F, J). However, with an n=~50 per condition, it becomes difficult to intuit the distribution, especially for conditions with higher variance (e.g., Auditory). The figures might be more easily interpretable with alternative methods of displaying variances, such as violin plots per data point, conventional error shading using 95%CIs, etc.

      • Why are the authors not reporting exact BFs in the results sections at least for the most important contrasts?

      • While I understand why the authors report the frequencies for the best model fits, this may become difficult to interpret in some sections, given the large number of reported values. Alternatives or additional summary statistics supporting inference could be beneficial.

      As the Reviewer states, there are a large number of figures that we can report in this study. We have chosen to keep this number at a minimum to be as clear as possible. To illustrate the distribution of individual data points, we have opted to display only the group's mean and standard error (the standard errors are included, but the substantial number of participants per condition provides precise estimates, resulting in error bars that can be smaller than the mean point). This decision stems from our concern that including additional details could lead to a cluttered representation with unnecessary complexity. Finally, we report what we believe to be the critical BFs for the comprehension of the reader in the main text, and choose a cutoff of 100 when BFs are high (corresponding to the label “decisive” evidence, some BFs are larger than 1012). All the exact BFs are in the supplementary for the interested readers.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript considers a mechanistic extension of MacArthur's consumer-resource model to include chasing down food and potential encounters between the chasers (consumers) that lead to less efficient feeding in the form of negative feedback. After developing the model, a deterministic solution and two forms of stochastic solutions are presented, in agreement with each other. Finally, the model is applied to explain observed coexistence and rank-abundance data.

      We thank the reviewer for the accurate summary of our manuscript.

      Strengths:

      The application of the theory to natural rank-abundance curves is impressive. The comparison with the experiments that reject the competitive exclusion principle is promising. It would be fascinating to see if in, e.g. insects, the specific interference dynamics could be observed and quantified and whether they would agree with the model.

      The results are clearly presented; the methods adequately described; the supplement is rich with details.

      There is much scope to build upon this expansion of the theory of consumer-resource models. This work can open up new avenues of research.

      We appreciate the reviewer for the very positive comments. We have followed many of the suggestions raised by the reviewer, and the manuscript is much improved as a result.

      Following the reviewer’s suggestions, we have now used Shannon entropies to quantify the model comparison with experiments that reject the Competitive Exclusion Principle (CEP). Specifically, for each time point of each experimental or model-simulated community, we calculated the Shannon entropies using the formula:

      , where is the probability that a consumer individual belongs to species C<sub>i</sub> at the time stamp of t. The comparison of Shannon entropies in the time series between those of the experimental data and SSA results shown in Fig. 2D-E is presented in Appendix-fig. 7C-D. The time averages and standard deviations (δH) of the Shannon entropies for these experimental or SSA model-simulated communities are as follows:

      , ; ,

      , , .

      Meanwhile, we have calculated the time averages and standard deviations (δC<sub>i</sub>) of the species’ relative/absolute abundances for the experimental or SSA model-simulated communities shown in Fig. 2D-E, which are as follows:

      , ; , ; , , , , where the superscript “(R)” represents relative abundances.

      From the results of Shannon entropies shown in Author response image 1 (which are identical to those of Appendix-fig. 7C-D) and the quantitative comparison of the time average and standard deviation between the model and experiments presented above, it is evident that the model results in Fig. 2D-E exhibit good consistency with the experimental data. They share roughly identical time averages and standard deviations in both Shannon entropies and the species' relative/absolute abundances for most of the comparisons. All these analyses are included in the appendices and mentioned in the main text.

      Author response image 1.

      Shannon Entropies of the experimental data and SSA results in Fig. 2D-E, redrawn from Appendix-fig. 7C-D.

      Weaknesses:

      I am questioning the use of carrying capacity (Eq. 4) instead of using nutrient limitation directly through Monod consumption (e.g. Posfai et al. who the authors cite). I am curious to see how these results hold or are changed when Monod consumption is used.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this question. To explain it more clearly, the equation combining the third equation in Eq. 1 and Eq. 4 of our manuscript is presented below as Eq. R1:

      where x<sub>il</sub> represents the population abundance of the chasing pair C<sub>i</sub><sup>(P)</sup> ∨ R<sub>l</sub><sup>(P)</sup>, κ<sub>l</sub> stands for the steady-state population abundance of species R<sub>l</sub> (the carrying capacity) in the absence of consumer species. In the case with no consumer species, then x<sub>il</sub> \= 0 since C<sub>i</sub> \= 0 (i\=1,…,S<sub>C</sub>), thus R<sub>l</sub> = κ<sub>l</sub> when R<sub>l</sub> = 0.

      Eq. R1 for the case of abiotic resources is comparable to Eq. (1) in Posfai et al., which we present below as Eq. R2:

      where c<sub>i</sub> represents the concentration of nutrient i, and thus corresponds to our R<sub>l</sub> ; n<sub>σ</sub>(t) is the population of species σ, which corresponds to our C<sub>i</sub> ; s<sub>i</sub> stands for the nutrient supply rate, which corresponds to our ζl ; µi denotes the nutrient loss rate, corresponding to our is the coefficient of the rate of species σ for consuming nutrient i, which corresponds to our in Posfai et al. is the consumption rate of nutrient i by the population of species σ, which corresponds to our x<sub>il</sub>.

      In Posfai et al., is the Monod function: and thus

      In our model, however, since predator interference is not involved in Posfai et al., we need to analyze the form of x<sub>il</sub> presented in the functional form of x<sub>il</sub> ({R<sub>l</sub>},{C<sub>i</sub>}) in the case involving only chasing pairs. Specifically, for the case of abiotic resources, the population dynamics can be described by Eq. 1 combined with Eq. R1:

      where and . For convenience, we consider the case of S<sub>R</sub> \=1 where the Monod form was derived (Monod, J. (1949). Annu. Rev. Microbiol., 3, 371-394.). From , we have

      where , and l =1. If the population abundance of the resource species is much larger than that of all consumer species (i.e., ), then,

      and R<sub>l</sub><sup>(F)</sup> ≈ R<sub>l</sub>. Combined with R5, and noting that C<sub>i</sub> \= C<sub>i</sub>(F) + xil we can solve for x<sub>il</sub> :

      with l =1 since S<sub>R</sub> \=1. Comparing Eq. R6 with Eq. R3, and considering the symbol correspondence explained in the text above, it is now clear that our model can be reduced to the Monod consumption form in the case of S<sub>R</sub> \=1 where the Monod form was derived from.

      Following on the previous comment, I am confused by the fact that the nutrient consumption term in Eq. 1 and how growth is modeled (Eq. 4) are not obviously compatible and would be hard to match directly to experimentally accessible quantities such as yield (nutrient to biomass conversion ratio). Ultimately, there is a conservation of mass ("flux balance"), and therefore the dynamics must obey it. I don't quite see how conservation of mass is imposed in this work.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this question. Indeed, the population dynamics of our model must adhere to flux balance, with the most pertinent equation restated here as Eq. R7:

      Below is the explanation of how Eq. R7, and thus Eqs. 1 and 4 of our manuscript, adhere to the constraint of flux balance. The interactions and fluxes between consumer and resource species occur solely through chasing pairs. At the population level, the scenario of chasing pairs among consumer species C<sub>i</sub> and resource species R<sub>l</sub> is presented in the follow expression:

      where the superscripts "(F)" and "(P)" represent the freely wandering individuals and those involved in chasing pairs, respectively, "(+)" stands for the gaining biomass of consumer C<sub>i</sub> from resource R<sub>l</sub>. In our manuscript, we use x<sub>l</sub> to represent the population abundance (or equivalently, the concentration, for a well-mixed system with a given size) of the chasing pair C<sub>i</sub><sup>(P)</sup> ∨ R<sub>l</sub><sup>(P)</sup>, and thus, the net flow from resource species R<sub>l</sub> to consumer species C<sub>i</sub> per unit time is k<sub>il</sub>x<sub>il</sub>. Noting that there is only one R<sub>l</sub> individual within the chasing pair C<sub>i</sub><sup>(P)</sup> ∨ R<sub>l</sub><sup>(P)</sup>, then the net effect on the population dynamics of species is −k<sub>il</sub>x<sub>il</sub>. However, since a consumer individual from species C<sub>i</sub> could be much heavier than a species R<sub>l</sub> individual, and energy dissipation would be involved from nutrient conversion into biomass, we introduce a mass conversion ratio w<sub>l</sub> in our manuscript. For example, if a species C<sub>i</sub> individual is ten times the weight of a species R<sub>l</sub> individual, without energy dissipation, the mass conversion ratio wil should be 1/10 (i.e., wil \= 0.1 ), however, if half of the chemical energy is dissipated into heat from nutrient conversion into biomass, then w<sub>l</sub> \= 0.1 0.5× = 0.05. Consequently, the net effect of the flux from resource species _R_l to consumer species C<sub>i</sub> per unit time on the population dynamics is , and flux balance is clearly satisfied.

      For the population dynamics of a consumer species C<sub>i</sub>, we need to consider all the biomass influx from different resource species, and thus there is a summation over all species of resources, which leads to the term of in Eq. R7. Similarly, for the population dynamics of a resource species R<sub>l</sub>, we need to lump sum all the biomass outflow into different consumer species, resulting in the term of in Eq. R7.

      Consequently, Eq. R7 and our model satisfy the constraint of flux balance.

      These models could be better constrained by more data, in principle, thereby potential exists for a more compelling case of the relevance of this interference mechanism to natural systems.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this question. Indeed, our model could benefit from the inclusion of more experimental data. In our manuscript, we primarily set the parameters by estimating their reasonable range. Following the reviewer's suggestions, we have now specified the data we used to set the parameters. For example, in Fig. 2D, we set 𝐷<sub>2</sub>\=0.01 with τ=0.4 days, resulting in an expected lifespan of Drosophila serrata in our model setting of 𝜏⁄𝐷<sub>2</sub>\= 40 days, which roughly agrees with experimental data showing that the average lifespan of D. serrata is 34 days for males and 54 days for females (lines 321-325 in the appendices; reference: Narayan et al. J Evol Biol. 35: 657–663 (2022)). To explain biodiversity and quantitatively illustrate the rank-abundance curves across diverse communities, the competitive differences across consumer species, exemplified by the coefficient of variation of the mortality rates - a key parameter influencing the rank-abundance curve, were estimated from experimental data in the reference article (Patricia Menon et al., Water Research (2003) 37, 4151) using the two-sigma rule (lines 344-347 in the appendices).

      Still, we admit that many factors other than intraspecific interference, such as temporal variation, spatial heterogeneity, etc., are involved in breaking the limits of CEP in natural systems, and it is still challenging to differentiate each contribution in wild systems. However, for the two classical experiments that break CEP (Francisco Ayala, 1969; Thomas Park, 1954), intraspecific interference could probably be the most relevant mechanism, since factors such as temporal variation, spatial heterogeneity, cross-feeding, and metabolic tradeoffs are not involved in those two experimental systems.

      The underlying frameworks, B-D and MacArthur are not properly exposed in the introduction, and as a result, it is not obvious what is the specific contribution in this work as opposed to existing literature. One needs to dig into the literature a bit for that.

      The specific contribution exists, but it might be more clearly separated and better explained. In the process, the introduction could be expanded a bit to make the paper more accessible, by reviewing key features from the literature that are used in this manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for these very insightful suggestions. Following these suggestions, we have now added a new paragraph and revised the introduction part of our manuscript (lines 51-67 in the main text) to address the relevant issues. Our paper is much improved as a result.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Kang et al investigates how the consideration of pairwise encounters (consumer-resource chasing, intraspecific consumer pair, and interspecific consumer pair) influences the community assembly results. To explore this, they presented a new model that considers pairwise encounters and intraspecific interference among consumer individuals, which is an extension of the classical Beddington-DeAngelis (BD) phenomenological model, incorporating detailed considerations of pairwise encounters and intraspecific interference among consumer individuals. Later, they connected with several experimental datasets.

      Strengths:

      They found that the negative feedback loop created by the intraspecific interference allows a diverse range of consumer species to coexist with only one or a few types of resources. Additionally, they showed that some patterns of their model agree with experimental data, including time-series trajectories of two small in-lab community experiments and the rank-abundance curves from several natural communities. The presented results here are interesting and present another way to explain how the community overcomes the competitive exclusion principle.

      We appreciate the reviewer for the positive comments and the accurate summary of our manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors only explore the case with interspecific interference or intraspecific interference exists. I believe they need to systematically investigate the case when both interspecific and intraspecific interference exists. In addition, the text description, figures, and mathematical notations have to be improved to enhance the article's readability. I believe this manuscript can be improved by addressing my comments, which I describe in more detail below.

      We thank the reviewer for these valuable suggestions. We have followed many of the suggestions raised by the reviewer, and the manuscript is much improved as a result.

      (1) In nature, it is really hard for me to believe that only interspecific interference or intraspecific interference exists. I think a hybrid between interspecific interference and intraspecific interference is very likely. What would happen if both the interspecific and intraspecific interference existed at the same time but with different encounter rates? Maybe the authors can systematically explore the hybrid between the two mechanisms by changing their encounter rates. I would appreciate it if the authors could explore this route.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this question. Indeed, interspecific interference and intraspecific interference simultaneously exist in real cases. To differentiate the separate contributions of inter- and intra-specific interference on biodiversity, we considered different scenarios involving inter- or intra-specific interference. In fact, we have also considered the scenario involving both inter- and intra-specific interference in our old version for the case of S<sub>C</sub> = 2 and S<sub>R</sub> = 1, where two consumer species compete for one resource species (Appendix-fig. 5, and lines 147-148, 162-163 in the main text of the old version, or lines 160-161, 175-177 in the new version).

      Following the reviewer’s suggestions, we have now systematically investigated the cases of S<sub>C</sub> = 6, S<sub>R</sub> = 1, and S<sub>C</sub> = 20, S<sub>R</sub> = 1, where six or twenty consumer species compete for one resource species in scenarios involving chasing pairs and both inter- and intra-specific interference using both ordinary differential equations (ODEs) and stochastic simulation algorithm (SSA). These newly added ODE and SSA results are shown in Appendix-fig. 5 F-H, and we have added a new paragraph to describe these results in our manuscript (lines 212-215 in the main text). Consistent with our findings in the case of S<sub>C</sub> = 2 and S<sub>R</sub> = 1, the species coexistence behavior in the cases of both S<sub>C</sub> = 6, S<sub>R</sub> = 1, and S<sub>C</sub> = 20, S<sub>R</sub> = 1 is very similar to those without interspecific interference: all consumer species coexist with one type of resources at constant population densities in the ODE studies, and the SSA results fluctuate around the population dynamics of the ODEs.

      As for the encounter rates of interspecific and intraspecific interference, in fact, in a well-mixed system, these encounter rates can be derived from the mobility rates of the consumer species using the mean field method. For a system with a size of L2, the interspecific encounter rate between consumer species C<sub>i</sub> and C<sub>j</sub> (ij) is please refer to lines 100-102, 293-317 in the main text, and see also Appendix-fig. 1), where r<sup>(I)</sup> is the upper distance for interference, while v<sub>C<sub>i</sub></sub> and v<sub>C<sub>j</sub></sub> represent the mobility rates of species C<sub>i</sub> and C<sub>j</sub>, respectively. Meanwhile, the intraspecific encounter rates within species C<sub>i</sub> and species C<sub>j</sub> are and , respectively.

      Thus, once the intraspecific encounter rates a’<sub>ii</sub> are a’<sub>jj</sub> given, the interspecific encounter rate between species C<sub>i</sub> and C<sub>j</sub> is determined. Consequently, we could not tune the encounter rates of interspecific and intraspecific interference at will in our study, especially noting that for clarity reasons, we have used the mortality rate as the only parameter that varies among the consumer species throughout this study. Alternatively, we have made a systematic study on analyzing the influence of varying the separate rate and escape rate on species coexistence in the case of two consumers competing for a single type of resources (see Appendix-fig. 5A).

      (2) In the first two paragraphs of the introduction, the authors describe the competitive exclusion principle (CEP) and past attempts to overcome the CEP. Moving on from the first two paragraphs to the third paragraph, I think there is a gap that needs to be filled to make the transition smoother and help readers understand the motivations. More specifically, I think the authors need to add one more paragraph dedicated to explaining why predator interference is important, how considering the mechanism of predator interference may help overcome the CEP, and whether predator interference has been investigated or under-investigated in the past. Then building upon the more detailed introduction and movement of predator interference, the authors may briefly introduce the classical B-D phenomenological model and what are the conventional results derived from the classical B-D model as well as how they intend to extend the B-D model to consider the pairwise encounters.

      We thank the reviewer for these very insightful suggestions. Following these suggestions, we have added a new paragraph and revised the introduction part of our paper (lines 51-67 in the main text). Our manuscript is significantly improved as a result.

      (3) The notations for the species abundances are not very informative. I believe some improvements can be made to make them more meaningful. For example, I think using Greek letters for consumers and English letters for resources might improve readability. Some sub-scripts are not necessary. For instance, R^(l)_0 can be simplified to g_l to denote the intrinsic growth rate of resource l. Similarly, K^(l)_0 can be simplified to K_l. Another example is R^(l)_a, which can be simplified to s_l to denote the supply rate. In addition, right now, it is hard to find all definitions across the text. I would suggest adding a separate illustrative box with all mathematical equations and explanations of symbols.

      We thank the reviewer for these very useful suggestions. We have now followed many of the suggestions to improve the readability of our manuscript. Given that we have used many English letters for consumers and there are already many symbols of English and Greek letters for different variables and parameters in the appendices, we have opted to use Greek letters for parameters specific to resource species and English letters for those specific to consumer species. Additionally, we have now added Appendix-tables 1-2 in the appendices (pages 16-17 in the appendices) to illustrate the symbols used throughout our manuscript.

      (4) What is the f_i(R^(F)) on line 131? Does it refer to the growth rate of C_i? I noticed that f_i(R^(F)) is defined in the supplementary information. But please ensure that readers can understand it even without reading the supplementary information. Otherwise, please directly refer to the supplementary information when f_i(R^(F)) occurs for the first time. Similarly, I don't think the readers can understand \Omega^\prime_i and G^\prime_i on lines 135-136.

      We thank the reviewer for raising these questions. We apologize for not illustrating those symbols and functions clearly enough in our previous version of the manuscript. f<sub>i</sub>R<sup>(F)</sup>⟯ is a function of the variable R<sup>(F)</sup> with the index i, which is defined as and for i=2. Following the reviewer’s suggestions, we have now added clear definitions for symbols and functions and resolved these issues. The definitions of \Omega_i, \Omega^\prime_i, G, and G^\prime are overly complex, and hence we directly refer to the Appendices when they occur for the first time in the main text.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      A central question in ecology is: Why are there so many species? This question gained heightened interest after the development of influential models in theoretical ecology in the 1960s, demonstrating that under certain conditions, two consumer species cannot coexist on the same resource. Since then, several mechanisms have been shown to be capable of breaking the competitive exclusion principle (although, we still lack a general understanding of the relative importance of the various mechanisms in promoting biodiversity).

      One mechanism that allows for breaking the competitive exclusion principle is predator interference. The Beddington-DeAngelis is a simple model that accounts for predator interference in the functional response of a predator. The B-D model is based on the idea that when two predators encounter one another, they waste some time engaging with one another which could otherwise be used to search for resources. While the model has been influential in theoretical ecology, it has also been criticized at times for several unusual assumptions, most critically, that predators interfere with each other regardless of whether they are already engaged in another interaction. However, there has been considerable work since then which has sought either to find sets of assumptions that lead to the B-D equation or to derive alternative equations from a more realistic set of assumptions (Ruxton et al. 1992; Cosner et al. 1999; Broom et al. 2010; Geritz and Gyllenberg 2012). This paper represents another attempt to more rigorously derive a model of predator interference by borrowing concepts from chemical reaction kinetics (the approach is similar to previous work: Ruxton et al. 1992). The main point of difference is that the model in the current manuscript allows for 'chasing pairs', where a predator and prey engage with one another to the exclusion of other interactions, a situation Ruxton et al. (1992) do not consider. While the resulting functional response is quite complex, the authors show that under certain conditions, one can get an analytical expression for the functional response of a predator as a function of predator and resource densities. They then go on to show that including intraspecific interference allows for the coexistence of multiple species on one or a few resources, and demonstrate that this result is robust to demographic stochasticity.

      We thank the reviewer for carefully reading our manuscript and for the positive comments on the rigorously derived model of predator interference presented in our paper. We also appreciate the reviewer for providing a thorough introduction to the research background of our study, especially the studies related to the BeddingtonDeAngelis model. We apologize for our oversight in not fully appreciating the related study by Ruxton et al. (1992) at the time of our first submission. Indeed, as suggested by the reviewer, Ruxton et al. (1992) is relevant to our study in that we both borrowed concepts from chemical reaction kinetics. Now, we have reworked the introduction and discussion sections of our manuscript, cited, and acknowledged the contributions of related works, including Ruxton et al. (1992).

      Strengths:

      I appreciate the effort to rigorously derive interaction rates from models of individual behaviors. As currently applied, functional responses (FRs) are estimated by fitting equations to feeding rate data across a range of prey or predator densities. In practice, such experiments are only possible for a limited set of species. This is problematic because whether a particular FR allows stability or coexistence depends on not just its functional form, but also its parameter values. The promise of the approach taken here is that one might be able to derive the functional response parameters of a particular predator species from species traits or more readily measurable behavioral data.

      We appreciate the reviewer's positive comments regarding the rigorous derivation of our model. Indeed, all parameters of our model can be derived from measurable behavioral data for a specific set of predator species.

      Weaknesses:

      The main weakness of this paper is that it devotes the vast majority of its length to demonstrating results that are already widely known in ecology. We have known for some time that predator interference can relax the CEP (e.g., Cantrell, R. S., Cosner, C., & Ruan, S. 2004).

      While the model presented in this paper differs from the functional form of the B-D in some cases, it would be difficult to formulate a model that includes intraspecific interference (that increases with predator density) that does not allow for coexistence under some parameter range. Thus, I find it strange that most of the main text of the paper deals with demonstrating that predator interference allows for coexistence, given that this result is already well known. A more useful contribution would focus on the extent to which the dynamics of this model differ from those of the B-D model.

      We appreciate the reviewer for raising this question and apologize for not sufficiently clarifying the contribution of our manuscript in the context of existing knowledge upon our initial submission. We have now significantly revised the introduction part of our manuscript (lines 51-67 in the main text) to make this clearer. Indeed, with the application of the Beddington-DeAngelis (B-D) model, several studies (e.g., Cantrell, R. S., Cosner, C., & Ruan, S. 2004) have already shown that intraspecific interference promotes species coexistence, and it is certain that the mechanism of intraspecific interference could lead to species coexistence if modeled correctly. However, while we acknowledge that the B-D model is a brilliant phenomenological model of intraspecific interference, for the specific research topic of our manuscript on breaking the CEP and explaining the paradox of the plankton, it is highly questionable regarding the validity of applying the B-D model to obtain compelling results.

      Specifically, the functional response in the B-D model of intraspecific interference can be formally derived from the scenario involving only chasing pairs without consideration of pairwise encounters between consumer individuals (Eq. S8 in Appendices; related references: Gert Huisman, Rob J De Boer, J. Theor. Biol. 185, 389 (1997) and Xin Wang and Yang-Yu Liu, iScience 23, 101009 (2020)). Since we have demonstrated that the scenario involving only chasing pairs is under the constraint of CEP (see lines 139-144 in the main text and Appendix-fig. 3A-C; related references: Xin Wang and Yang-Yu Liu, iScience 23, 101009 (2020)), and given the identical functional response mentioned above, it is thus highly questionable regarding the validity of the studies relying on the B-D model to break CEP or explain the paradox of the plankton.

      Consequently, one of the major objectives of our manuscript is to resolve whether the mechanism of intraspecific interference can truly break CEP and explain the paradox of the plankton in a rigorous manner. By modeling intraspecific predator interference from a mechanistic perspective and applying rigorous mathematical analysis and numerical simulations, our work resolves these issues and demonstrates that intraspecific interference enables a wide range of consumer species to coexist with only one or a handful of resource species. This naturally breaks CEP, explains the paradox of plankton, and quantitatively illustrates a broad spectrum of experimental results.

      For intuitive understanding, we introduced a functional response in our model (presented as Eq. 5 in the main text), which indeed involves approximations. However, to rigorously break the CEP or explain the paradox of plankton, all simulation results in our study were directly derived from equations 1 to 4 (main text), without relying on the approximate functional response presented in Eq. 5.

      The formulation of chasing-pair engagements assumes that prey being chased by a predator are unavailable to other predators. For one, this seems inconsistent with the ecology of most predator-prey systems. In the system in which I work (coral reef fishes), prey under attack by one predator are much more likely to be attacked by other predators (whether it be a predator of the same species or otherwise). I find it challenging to think of a mechanism that would give rise to chased prey being unavailable to other predators. The authors also critique the B-D model: "However, the functional response of the B-D model involving intraspecific interference can be formally derived from the scenario involving only chasing pairs without predator interference (Wang and Liu, 2020; Huisman and De Boer, 1997) (see Eqs. S8 and S24). Therefore, the validity of applying the B-D model to break the CEP is questionable.".

      We appreciate the reviewer for raising this question. We fully agree with the reviewer that in many predator-prey systems (e.g., coral reef fishes as mentioned by the reviewer, wolves, and even microbial species such as Myxococcus xanthus; related references: Berleman et al., FEMS Microbiol. Rev. 33, 942-957 (2009)), prey under attack by one predator can be targeted by another predator (which we term as a chasing triplet) or even by additional predator individuals (which we define as higher-order terms). However, since we have already demonstrated in a previous study (Xin Wang, Yang-Yu Liu, iScience 23, 101009 (2020)) from a mechanistic perspective that a scenario involving chasing triplets or higher-order terms can naturally break the CEP, while our manuscript focuses on whether pairwise encounters between individuals can break the CEP and explain the paradox of plankton, we deliberately excluded confounding factors that are already known to promote biodiversity, just as we excluded prevalent factors such as cross-feeding and temporal variations in our model.

      However, the way "chasing pairs" are formulated does result in predator interference because a predator attacking prey interferes with the ability of other predators to encounter the prey. I don't follow the author's logic that B-D isn't a valid explanation for coexistence because a model incorporating chasing pairs engagements results in the same functional form as B-D.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this question, and we apologize for not making this point clear enough at the time of our initial submission. We have now revised the related part of our manuscript (lines 56-62 in the main text) to make this clearer.

      In our definition, predator interference means the pairwise encounter between consumer individuals, while a chasing pair is formed by a pairwise encounter between a consumer individual and a resource individual. Thus, in these definitions, a scenario involving only chasing pairs does not involve pairwise encounters between consumer individuals (which is our definition of predator interference).

      We acknowledge that there can be different definitions of predator interference, and the reviewer's interpretation is based on a definition of predator interference that incorporates indirect interference without pairwise encounters between consumer individuals. We do not wish to argue about the appropriateness of definitions. However, since we have proven that scenarios involving only chasing pairs are under the constraint of CEP (see lines 139-144 in the main text and Appendix-fig. 3A-C; related references: Xin Wang and Yang-Yu Liu, iScience 23, 101009 (2020)), while the functional response of the B-D model can be derived from the scenario involving only chasing pairs without consideration of pairwise encounters between consumer individuals (Eq. S8 in Appendices; related references: Gert Huisman, Rob J De Boer, J. Theor. Biol. 185, 389 (1997) and Xin Wang and Yang-Yu Liu, iScience 23, 101009 (2020)), it is thus highly questionable regarding the validity of applying the B-D model to break CEP.

      More broadly, the specific functional form used to model predator interference is of secondary importance to the general insight that intraspecific interference (however it is modeled) can allow for coexistence. Mechanisms of predator interference are complex and vary substantially across species. Thus it is unlikely that any one specific functional form is generally applicable.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this issue. We agree that the general insight that intraspecific predator interference can facilitate species coexistence is of great importance. We also acknowledge that any functional form of a functional response is unlikely to be universally applicable, as explicit functional responses inevitably involve approximations. However, we must reemphasize the importance of verifying whether intraspecific predator interference can truly break CEP and explain the paradox of plankton, which is one of the primary objectives of our study. As mentioned above, since the B-D model can be derived from the scenario involving only chasing pairs (Eq. S8 in Appendices; related references: Gert Huisman, Rob J De Boer, J. Theor. Biol. 185, 389 (1997) and Xin Wang and Yang-Yu Liu, iScience 23, 101009 (2020)), while we have demonstrated that scenarios involving only chasing pairs are subject to the constraint of CEP (see lines 139-144 in the main text and Appendix-fig. 3A-C; related references: Xin Wang and Yang-Yu Liu, iScience 23, 101009 (2020)), it is highly questionable regarding the validity of applying the B-D model to break CEP.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I do not see any code or data sharing. They should exist in a prominent place. The authors should make their simulations and the analysis scripts freely available to download, e.g. by GitHub. This is always true but especially so in a journal like eLife.

      We appreciate the reviewer for these recommendations. We apologize for our oversight regarding the unsuccessful upload of the data in our initial submission, as the data size was considerable and we neglected to double-check for this issue. Following the reviewer’s recommendation, we have now uploaded the code and dataset to GitHub (accessible at https://github.com/SchordK/Intraspecific-predator-interference-promotesbiodiversity-in-ecosystems), where they are freely available for download.

      The introduction section should include more background, including about BD but also about consumer-resource models. Part of the results section could be moved/edited to the introduction. You should try that the results section should contain only "new" stuff whereas the "old" stuff should go in the introduction.

      We thank the reviewer for these recommendations. Following these suggestions, we have now reorganized our manuscript by adding a new paragraph to the introduction section (lines 51-62 in the main text) and revising related content in both the introduction and results sections (lines 63-67, 81-83 in the main text).

      I found myself getting a little bogged down in the general/formal description of the model before you go to specific cases. I found the most interesting part of the paper to be its second half. This is a dangerous strategy, a casual reader may miss out on the most interesting part of the paper. It's your paper and do what you think is best, but my opinion is that you could improve the presentation of the model and background to get to the specific contribution and specific use case quickly and easily, then immediately to the data. You can leave the more general formulation and the details to later in the paper or even the appendix. Ultimately, you have a simple idea and a beautiful application on interesting data-that is your strength I think, and so, I would focus on that.

      We appreciate the reviewer for the positive comments and valuable suggestions. Following these recommendations, we have revised the presentation of the background information to clarify the contribution of our manuscript, and we have refined our model presentation to enhance clarity. Meanwhile, as we need to address the concerns raised by other reviewers, we continue to maintain systematic investigations for scenarios involving different forms of pairwise encounters in the case of S<sub>C</sub> = 2 and S<sub>R</sub> = 1 before applying our model to the experimental data.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) I believe the surfaces in Figs. 1F-H corresponds to the zero-growth isoclines. The authors should directly point it out in the figure captions and text descriptions.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion, and we have followed it to address the issue.

      (2) After showing equations 1 or 2, I believe it will help readers understand the mechanism of equations by adding text such as "(see Fig. 1B)" to the sentences following the equations.

      We appreciate the reviewer's suggestion, and we have implemented it to address the issue.

      (3) Lines 12, 129 143 & 188: "at steady state" -> "at a steady state"

      (4) Line 138: "is doom to extinct" -> "is doomed to extinct"

      (5) Line 170: "intraspecific interference promotes species coexistence along with stochasticity" -> "intraspecific interference still robustly promotes species coexistence when stochasticity is considered"

      (6) Line 190: "The long-term coexistence behavior are exemplified" -> "The long-term coexistence behavior is exemplified"

      (7) Line 227: "the coefficient of variation was taken round 0.3" -> "the coefficient of variation was taken around 0.3"?

      (8) Line 235: "tend to extinct" -> "tend to be extinct"

      We thank the reviewer for all these suggestions, and we have implemented each of them to revise our manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I think this would be a much more useful paper if the authors focused on how the behavior of this model differs from existing models rather than showing that the new formation also generates the same dynamics as the existing theory.

      We thank the reviewers for this suggestion, and we apologize for not explaining the limitations of the B-D model and the related studies on the topic of CEP clearly enough at the time of our initial submission. As we have explained in the responses above, we have now revised the introduction part of our manuscript (lines 5167 in the main text) to make it clear that since the functional response in the B-D model can be derived from the scenario involving only chasing pairs without consideration of pairwise encounters between consumer individuals, while we have demonstrated that a scenario involving only chasing pairs is under the constraint of CEP, it is thus highly questionable regarding the validity of the studies relying on the B-D model to break CEP or explain the paradox of the plankton. Consequently, one of the major objectives of our manuscript is to resolve whether the mechanism of intraspecific interference can truly break CEP and explain the paradox of the plankton in a rigorous manner. By modeling from a mechanistic perspective, we resolve the above issues and quantitatively illustrate a broad spectrum of experimental results, including two classical experiments that violate CEP and the rank-abundance curves across diverse ecological communities.

      Things that would be of interest:

      What are the conditions for coexistence in this model? Presumably, it depends heavily on the equilibrium abundances of the consumers and resources as well as the engagement times/rates.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this question. We have shown that there is a wide range of parameter space for species coexistence in our model. Specifically, for the case involving two consumer species and one resource species (S<sub>C</sub> = 2 and S<sub>R</sub> \= 1), we have conducted a systematic study on the parameter region for promoting species coexistence. For clarity, we set the mortality rate 𝐷<sub>i</sub> (i = 1, 2) as the only parameter that varies with the consumer species, and the order of magnitude of all model parameters was estimated from behavioral data. The results for scenarios involving intraspecific predator interference are shown in Appendix-figs. 4B-D, 5A, 6C-D and we redraw some of them here as Fig. R2, including both ODEs and SSA results, wherein Δ = (𝐷<sub>1</sub>-𝐷<sub>2</sub>)/ 𝐷<sub>2</sub> represents the competitive difference between the two consumer species. For example, Δ =1 means that species C2 is twice the competitiveness of species C<sub>1</sub>. In Fig. R2 (see also Appendix-figs. 4B-D, 5A, 6C-D), we see that the two consumer species can coexist with a large competitive difference in either ODEs and SSA simulation studies.

      Author response image 2.

      The parameter region for two consumer species coexisting with one type of abiotic resource species (S<sub>C</sub> =2 and S<sub>R</sub> \=1). (A) The region below the blue surface and above the red surface represents stable coexistence of the three species at constant population densities. (B) The blue region represents stable coexistence at a steady state for the three species. (C) The color indicates (refer to the color bar) the coexisting fraction for long-term coexistence of the three species. Figure redrawn from Appendixfigs. 4B, 6C-D.

      For systems shown in Fig. 3A-D, where the number of consumer species is much larger than that of the resource species, we set each consumer species with unique competitiveness through a distinctive 𝐷<sub>i</sub> (i =1,…, S<sub>C</sub>). In Fig. 3A-D (see also Appendix fig. 10), we see that hundreds of consumer species may coexist with one or three types of resources when the coefficient of variation (CV) of the consumer species’ competitiveness was taken around 0.3, which indicates a large parameter region for promoting species coexistence.

      Is there existing data to estimate the parameters in the model directly from behavioral data? Do these parameter ranges support the hypothesis that predator interference is significant enough to allow for the coexistence of natural predator populations?

      We appreciate the reviewer for raising this question. Indeed, the parameters in our model were primarily determined by estimating their reasonable range from behavioral data. Following the reviewer's suggestions, we have now specified the data we used to set the parameters. For instance, in Fig. 2D, we set 𝐷<sub>2</sub>\=0.01 with τ=0.4 Day, resulting in an expected lifespan of Drosophila serrata in our model setting of 𝜏⁄𝐷<sub>2</sub>\= 40 days, which roughly agrees with experimental behavioral data showing that the average lifespan of D. serrata is 34 days for males and 54 days for females (lines 321325 in the appendices; reference: Narayan et al. J Evol Biol. 35: 657–663 (2022)). To account for competitive differences, we set the mortality rate as the only parameter that varies among the consumer species. As specified in the Appendices, the CV of the mortality rate is the only parameter that was used to fit the experiments within the range of 0.15-0.43. This parameter range (i.e., 0.15-0.43) was directly estimated from experimental data in the reference article (Patricia Menon et al., Water Research 37, 4151(2003)) using the two-sigma rule (lines 344-347 in the appendices).

      Given the high consistency between the model results and experiments shown in Figs. 2D-E and 3C-D, where all the key model parameters were estimated from experimental data in references, and considering that the rank-abundance curves shown in Fig. 3C-D include a wide range of ecological communities, there is no doubt that predator interference is significant enough to allow for the coexistence of natural predator populations within the parameter ranges estimated from experimental references.

      Bifurcation analyses for the novel parameters of this model. Does the fact that prey can escape lead to qualitatively different model behaviors?

      Author response image 3.

      Bifurcation analyses for the separate rate d’<sub>i</sub> and escape rate d<sub>i</sub> (i =1, 2) of our model in the case of two consumer species competing for one abiotic resource species (S<sub>C</sub> =2 and S<sub>R</sub> \=1). (A) A 3D representation: the region above the blue surface signifies competitive exclusion where C<sub>1</sub> species extinct, while the region below the blue surface and above the red surface represents stable coexistence of the three species at constant population densities. (B) a 2D representation: the blue region represents stable coexistence at a steady state for the three species. Figure redrawn from Appendix-fig. 4C-D.

      We appreciate the reviewer for this suggestion. Following this suggestion, we have conducted bifurcation analyses for the separate rate d’<sub>i</sub> and escape rate d<sub>i</sub> of our model in the case where two consumer species compete for one resource species (S<sub>C</sub> =2 and S<sub>R</sub> \=1). Both 2D and 3D representations of these results have been included in Appendix-fig. 4, and we redraw them here as Fig. R3. In Fig. R3, we set the mortality rate 𝐷<sub>i</sub> (i =1, 2) as the only parameter that varies between the consumer species, and thus Δ = _(D1-𝐷<sub>2</sub>)/𝐷<sub>2</sub> represents the competitive difference between the two species.

      As shown in Fig. R3A-B, the smaller the escape rate d<sub>i</sub>, the larger the competitive difference Δ tolerated for species coexistence at steady state. A similar trend is observed for the separate rate d’<sub>i</sub>. However, there is an abrupt change for both 2D and 3D representations at the area where d’<sub>i</sub> =0, since if d’<sub>i</sub> =0, all consumer individuals would be trapped in interference pairs, and then no consumer species could exist. On the contrary, there is no abrupt change for both 2D and 3D representations at the area where d<sub>i</sub>\=0, since even if d<sub>i</sub>\=0, the consumer individuals could still leave the chasing pair through the capture process.

      Figures: I found the 3D plots especially Appendix Figure 2 very difficult to interpret. I think 2D plots with multiple lines to represent predator densities would be more clear.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. Following this suggestion, we have added a 2D diagram to Appendix-fig. 2.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment 

      The work introduces a valuable new method for depleting the ribosomal RNA from bacterial single-cell RNA sequencing libraries and shows that this method is applicable to studying the heterogeneity in microbial biofilms. The evidence for a small subpopulation of cells at the bottom of the biofilm which upregulates PdeI expression is solid. However, more investigation into the unresolved functional relationship between PdeI and c-di-GMP levels with the help of other genes co-expressed in the same cluster would have made the conclusions more significant. 

      Many thanks for eLife’s assessment of our manuscript and the constructive feedback. We are encouraged by the recognition of our bacterial single-cell RNA-seq methodology as valuable and its efficacy in studying bacterial population heterogeneity. We appreciate the suggestion for additional investigation into the functional relationship between PdeI and c-di-GMP levels. We concur that such an exploration could substantially enhance the impact of our conclusions. To address this, we have implemented the following revisions: We have expanded our data analysis to identify and characterize genes co-expressed with PdeI within the same cellular cluster (Fig. 3F, G, Response Fig. 10); We conducted additional experiments to validate the functional relationships between PdeI and c-di-GMP, followed by detailed phenotypic analyses (Response Fig. 9B). Our analysis reveals that while other marker genes in this cluster are co-expressed, they do not significantly impact biofilm formation or directly relate to c-di-GMP or PdeI. We believe these revisions have substantially enhanced the comprehensiveness and context of our manuscript, thereby reinforcing the significance of our discoveries related to microbial biofilms. The expanded investigation provides a more thorough understanding of the PdeI-associated subpopulation and its role in biofilm formation, addressing the concerns raised in the initial assessment.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      In this manuscript, Yan and colleagues introduce a modification to the previously published PETRI-seq bacterial single-cell protocol to include a ribosomal depletion step based on a DNA probe set that selectively hybridizes with ribosome-derived (rRNA) cDNA fragments. They show that their modification of the PETRI-seq protocol increases the fraction of informative non-rRNA reads from ~4-10% to 54-92%. The authors apply their protocol to investigating heterogeneity in a biofilm model of E. coli, and convincingly show how their technology can detect minority subpopulations within a complex community. 

      Strengths: 

      The method the authors propose is a straightforward and inexpensive modification of an established split-pool single-cell RNA-seq protocol that greatly increases its utility, and should be of interest to a wide community working in the field of bacterial single-cell RNA-seq. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The manuscript is written in a very compressed style and many technical details of the evaluations conducted are unclear and processed data has not been made available for evaluation, limiting the ability of the reader to independently judge the merits of the method. 

      Thank you for your thoughtful and constructive review of our manuscript. We appreciate your recognition of the strengths of our work and the potential impact of our modified PETRI-seq protocol on the field of bacterial single-cell RNA-seq. We are grateful for the opportunity to address your concerns and improve the clarity and accessibility of our manuscript.

      We acknowledge your feedback regarding the compressed writing style and lack of technical details, which are constrained by the requirements of the Short Report format in eLife. We have addressed these issues in our revised manuscript as follows:

      (1) Expanded methodology section: We have provided a more comprehensive description of our experimental procedures, including detailed protocols for the ribosomal depletion step (lines 435-453) and data analysis pipeline (lines 471-528). This will enable readers to better understand and potentially replicate our methods.

      (2) Clarification of technical evaluations: We have elaborated on the specifics of our evaluations, including the criteria used for assessing the efficiency of ribosomal depletion (lines 99-120), and the methods employed for identifying and characterizing subpopulations (lines 155-159, 161-163 and 163-167).

      (3) Data availability: We apologize for the oversight in not making our processed data readily available. We have deposited all relevant datasets, including raw and source data, in appropriate public repositories (GEO: GSE260458) and provide clear instructions for accessing this data in the revised manuscript.

      (4) Supplementary information: To maintain the concise nature of the main text while providing necessary details, we have included additional supplementary information. This will cover extended methodology (lines 311-318, 321-323, 327-340, 450-453, 533, and 578-589), detailed statistical analyses (lines 492-493, 499-501 and 509-528), and comprehensive data tables to support our findings.

      We believe these changes significantly improved the clarity and reproducibility of our work, allowing readers to better evaluate the merits of our method.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      This work introduces a new method of depleting the ribosomal reads from the single-cell RNA sequencing library prepared with one of the prokaryotic scRNA-seq techniques, PETRI-seq. The advance is very useful since it allows broader access to the technology by lowering the cost of sequencing. It also allows more transcript recovery with fewer sequencing reads. The authors demonstrate the utility and performance of the method for three different model species and find a subpopulation of cells in the E.coli biofilm that express a protein, PdeI, which causes elevated c-di-GMP levels. These cells were shown to be in a state that promotes persister formation in response to ampicillin treatment. 

      Strengths: 

      The introduced rRNA depletion method is highly efficient, with the depletion for E.coli resulting in over 90% of reads containing mRNA. The method is ready to use with existing PETRI-seq libraries which is a large advantage, given that no other rRNA depletion methods were published for split-pool bacterial scRNA-seq methods. Therefore, the value of the method for the field is high. There is also evidence that a small number of cells at the bottom of a static biofilm express PdeI which is causing the elevated c-di-GMP levels that are associated with persister formation. Given that PdeI is a phosphodiesterase, which is supposed to promote hydrolysis of c-di-GMP, this finding is unexpected. 

      Weaknesses: 

      With the descriptions and writing of the manuscript, it is hard to place the findings about the PdeI into existing context (i.e. it is well known that c-di-GMP is involved in biofilm development and is heterogeneously distributed in several species' biofilms; it is also known that E.coli diesterases regulate this second messenger, i.e. https://journals.asm.org/doi/full/10.1128/jb.00604-15). 

      There is also no explanation for the apparently contradictory upregulation of c-di-GMP in cells expressing higher PdeI levels. Perhaps the examination of the rest of the genes in cluster 2 of the biofilm sample could be useful to explain the observed association. 

      Thank you for your thoughtful and constructive review of our manuscript. We are pleased that the reviewer recognizes the value and efficiency of our rRNA depletion method for PETRI-seq, as well as its potential impact on the field. We would like to address the points raised by the reviewer and provide additional context and clarification regarding the function of PdeI in c-di-GMP regulation.

      We acknowledge that c-di-GMP’s role in biofilm development and its heterogeneous distribution in bacterial biofilms are well studied. We appreciate the reviewer's observation regarding the seemingly contradictory relationship between increased PdeI expression and elevated c-di-GMP levels. This is indeed an intriguing finding that warrants further explanation.

      PdeI is predicted to function as a phosphodiesterase involved in c-di-GMP degradation, based on sequence analysis demonstrating the presence of an intact EAL domain, which is known for this function. However, it is important to note that PdeI also harbors a divergent GGDEF domain, typically associated with c-di-GMP synthesis. This dual-domain structure indicates that PdeI may play complex regulatory roles. Previous studies have shown that knocking out the major phosphodiesterase PdeH in E. coli results in the accumulation of c-di-GMP. Moreover, introducing a point mutation (G412S) in PdeI's divergent GGDEF domain within this PdeH knockout background led to decreased c-di-GMP levels2. This finding implies that the wild-type GGDEF domain in PdeI contributes to maintaining or increasing cellular c-di-GMP levels.

      Importantly, our single-cell experiments demonstrated a positive correlation between PdeI expression levels and c-di-GMP levels (Figure 4D). In this revision, we also constructed a PdeI(G412S)-BFP mutation strain. Notably, our observations of this strain revealed that c-di-GMP levels remained constant despite an increase in BFP fluorescence, which serves as a proxy for PdeI(G412S) expression levels (Figure 4D). This experimental evidence, coupled with domain analyses, suggests that PdeI may also contribute to c-di-GMP synthesis, rebutting the notion that it acts solely as a phosphodiesterase. HPLC LC-MS/MS analysis further confirmed that the overexpression of PdeI, induced by arabinose, resulted in increased c-di-GMP levels (Fig. 4E) . These findings strongly suggest that PdeI plays a pivotal role in upregulating c-di-GMP levels.

      Our further analysis indicated that PdeI contains a CHASE (cyclases/histidine kinase-associated sensory) domain. Combined with our experimental results showing that PdeI is a membrane-associated protein, we hypothesize that PdeI acts as a sensor, integrating environmental signals with c-di-GMP production under complex regulatory mechanisms.

      We understand your interest in the other genes present in cluster 2 of the biofilm and their potential relationship to PdeI and c-di-GMP. Upon careful analysis, we have determined that the other marker genes in this cluster do not significantly impact biofilm formation, nor have we identified any direct relationship between these genes, c-di-GMP, or PdeI. Our focus on PdeI within this cluster is justified by its unique and significant role in c-di-GMP regulation and biofilm formation, as demonstrated by our experimental results. While other genes in this cluster may be co-expressed, their functions appear unrelated to the PdeI-c-di-GMP pathway we are investigating. Therefore, we opted not to elaborate on these genes in our main discussion, as they do not contribute directly to our understanding of the PdeI-c-di-GMP association. However, we can include a brief mention of these genes in the manuscript, indicating their lack of relevance to the PdeI-c-di-GMP pathway. This addition will provide a more comprehensive view of the cluster's composition while maintaining our focus on the key findings related to PdeI and c-di-GMP.

      We have also included the aforementioned explanations and supporting experimental data within the manuscript to clarify this important point (lines 193-217). Thank you for highlighting this apparent contradiction, allowing us to provide a more detailed explanation of our findings.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Overall, I found the main text of the manuscript well written and easy to understand, though too compressed in parts to fully understand the details of the work presented, some examples are outlined below. The materials and methods appeared to be less carefully compiled and could use some careful proof-reading for spelling (e.g. repeated use of "minuts" for minutes, "datas" for data) and grammar and sentence fragments (e.g. "For exponential period E. coli data." Line 333). In general, the meaning is still clear enough to be understood. I also was unable to find figure captions for the supplementary figures, making these difficult to understand. 

      We appreciate your careful review, which has helped us improve the clarity and quality of our manuscript. We acknowledge that some parts of the main text may have been overly compressed due to Short Report format in eLife. We have thoroughly reviewed the manuscript and expanded on key areas to provide more comprehensive explanations. We have carefully revised the Materials and Methods section to address the following: Corrected all spelling and grammatical error, including "minuts" to "minutes" and "datas" to "data". Corrected grammatical issues and sentence fragments throughout the section. We sincerely apologize for the omission of captions for the supplementary figures. We have now added detailed captions for all supplementary figures to ensure they are easily understandable. We believe these revisions address your concerns and enhance the overall readability and comprehension of our work.

      General comments: 

      (1) To evaluate the performance of RiboD-PETRI, it would be helpful to have more details in general, particularly to do with the development of the sequencing protocol and the statistics shown. Some examples: How many reads were sequenced in each experiment? Of these, how many are mapped to the bacterial genome? How many reads were recovered per cell? Have the authors performed some kind of subsampling analysis to determine if their sequencing has saturated the detection of expressed genes? The authors show e.g. correlations between classic PETRI-seq and RiboD-PETRI for E. coli in Figure 1, but also have similar data for C. crescentus and S. aureus - do these data behave similarly? These are just a few examples, but I'm sure the authors have asked themselves many similar questions while developing this project; more details, hard numbers, and comparisons would be very much appreciated. 

      Thank you for your valuable feedback. To address your concerns, we have added a table in the supplementary material that clarifies the details of sequencing.

      The correlation values of PETRI-seq and RiboD-PETRI data in C. crescentus are relatively good. However, the correlation values between PETRI-seq and RiboD-PETRI data in SA data are relatively less high. The reason is that the sequencing depths of RiboD-PETRI and PETRI-seq are different, resulting in much higher gene expression in the RiboD-PETRI sequencing results than in PETRI-seq, and the calculated correlation coefficient is only about 0.47. This indicates that there is some positive correlation between the two sets of data, but it is not particularly strong. This indicates that there is a certain positive correlation between these two sets of data, but it is not particularly strong. However, we have counted the expression of 2763 genes in total, and even though the calculated correlation coefficient is relatively low, it still shows that there is some consistency between the two groups of samples.

      Author response image 1.

      Assessment of the effect of rRNA depletion on transcriptional profiles of (A) C. crescentus (CC) and (B) S. aureus (SA) . The Pearson correlation coefficient (r) of UMI counts per gene (log2 UMIs) between RiboD-PETRI and PETRI-seq was calculated for 4097 genes (A) and 2763 genes (B). The "ΔΔ" label represents the RiboD-PETRI protocol; The "Ctrl" label represents the classic PETRI-seq protocol we performed. Each point represents a gene.

      (2) Additionally, I think it is critical that the authors provide processed read counts per cell and gene in their supplementary information to allow others to investigate the performance of their method without going back to raw FASTQ files, as this can represent a significant hurdle for reanalysis. 

      Thank you for your suggestion. However, it's important to clarify that reads and UMIs (Unique Molecular Identifiers) are distinct concepts in single-cell RNA sequencing. Reads can be influenced by PCR amplification during library construction, making their quantity less stable. In contrast, UMIs serve as a more reliable indicator of the number of mRNA molecules detected after PCR amplification. Throughout our study, we primarily utilized UMI counts for quantification. To address your concern about data accessibility, we have included the UMI counts per cell and gene in our supplementary materials provided above (Table S7-15. Some of the files are too large in memory and are therefore stored in GEO: GSE260458). This approach provides a more accurate representation of gene expression levels and allows for robust reanalysis without the need to process raw FASTQ files.

      (3) Finally, the authors should also discuss other approaches to ribosomal depletion in bacterial scRNA-seq. One of the figures appears to contain such a comparison, but it is never mentioned in the text that I can find, and one could read this manuscript and come away believing this is the first attempt to deplete rRNA from bacterial scRNA-seq. 

      We have addressed this concern by including a comparison of different methods for depleting rRNA from bacterial scRNA-seq in Table S4 and make a short text comparison as follows: “Additionally, we compared our findings with other reported methods (Fig. 1B; Table S4). The original PETRI-seq protocol, which does not include an rRNA depletion step, exhibited an mRNA detection rate of approximately 5%. The MicroSPLiT-seq method, which utilizes Poly A Polymerase for mRNA enrichment, achieved a detection rate of 7%. Similarly, M3-seq and BacDrop-seq, which employ RNase H to digest rRNA post-DNA probe hybridization in cells, reported mRNA detection rates of 65% and 61%, respectively. MATQ-DASH, which utilizes Cas9-mediated targeted rRNA depletion, yielded a detection rate of 30%. Among these, RiboD-PETRI demonstrated superior performance in mRNA detection while requiring the least sequencing depth.” We have added this content in the main text (lines 110-120), specifically in relation to Figure 1B and Table S4. This addition provides context for our method and clarifies its position among existing techniques.

      Detailed comments: 

      Line 78: the authors describe the multiplet frequency, but it is not clear to me how this was determined, for which experiments, or where in the SI I should look to see this. Often this is done by mixing cultures of two distinct bacteria, but I see no evidence of this key experiment in the manuscript. 

      The multiplet frequency we discuss in the manuscript is not determined through experimental mixing of distinct bacterial cultures.The PETRI-seq and mirco-SPLIT articles have also done experiments mixing the two libraries to determine the single-cell rate, and both gave good results. Our technique is derived from these two articles (mainly PETRI-seq), and the biggest difference is the difference in the later RiboD part, so we did not do this experiment separately. So the multiple frequencies here are theoretical predictions based on our sequencing results, calculated using a Poisson distribution. We have made this distinction clearer in our manuscript (lines 93-97). The method is available in Materials and Methods section (lines 520-528). The data is available in Table S2. To elaborate:

      To assess the efficiency of single-cell capture in RiboD-PETRI, we calculated the multiplet frequency using a Poisson distribution based on our sequencing results

      (1) Definition: In our study, multiplet frequency is defined as the probability of a non-empty barcode corresponding to more than one cell.

      (2) Calculation Method: We use a Poisson distribution-based approach to calculate the predicted multiplet frequency. The process involves several steps:

      We first calculate the proportion of barcodes corresponding to zero cells: . Then, we calculate the proportion corresponding to one cell: . We derive the proportion for more than zero cells: P(≥1) = 1 - P(0). And for more than one cell: P(≥2) = 1 - P(1) - P(0). Finally, the multiplet frequency is calculated as:

      (3) Parameter λ: This is the ratio of the number of cells to the total number of possible barcode combinations. For instance, when detecting 10,000 cells, .

      Line 94: the concept of "percentage of gene expression" is never clearly defined. Does this mean the authors detect 99.86% of genes expressed in some cells? How is "expressed" defined - is this just detecting a single UMI? 

      The term "percentage gene expression" refers to the proportion of genes in the bacterial strain that were detected as expressed in the sequenced cell population. Specifically, in this context, it means that 99.86% of all genes in the bacterial strain were detected as expressed in at least one cell in our sequencing results. To define "expressed" more clearly: a gene is considered expressed if at least one UMI (Unique Molecular Identifier) detected in a cell in the population. This definition allows for the detection of even low-level gene expression. To enhance clarity in the manuscript, we have rephrased the sentence as “transcriptome-wide gene coverage across the cell population”.

      Line 98: The authors discuss the number of recovered UMIs throughout this paragraph, but there is no clear discussion of the number of detected expressed genes per cell. Could the authors include a discussion of this as well, as this is another important measure of sensitivity? 

      We appreciate your suggestion to include a discussion on the number of detected expressed genes per cell, as this is indeed another important measure of sensitivity. We would like to clarify that we have actually included statistics on the number of genes detected across all cells in the main text of our paper. This information is presented as percentages. However, we understand that you may be looking for a more detailed representation, similar to the UMI statistics we provided. To address this, we have now added a new analysis showing the number of genes detected per cell (lines 132-133, 138-139, 144-145 and 184-186, Fig. 2B, 3B and S2B). This additional result complements our existing UMI data and provides a more comprehensive view of the sensitivity of our method. We have included this new gene-per-cell statistical graph in the supplementary materials.

      Figure 1B: I presume ctrl and delta delta represent the classic PETRI-seq and RiboD protocols, respectively, but this is not specified. This should be clarified in the figure caption, or the names changed. 

      We appreciate you bringing this to our attention. We acknowledge that the labeling in the figure could have been clearer. We have now clarified this information in the figure caption. To provide more specificity: The "ΔΔ" label represents the RiboD-PETRI protocol; The "Ctrl" label represents the classic PETRI-seq protocol we performed. We have updated the figure caption to include these details, which should help readers better understand the protocols being compared in the figure.​

      Line 104: the authors claim "This performance surpassed other reported bacterial scRNA-seq methods" with a long number of references to other methods. "Performance" is not clearly defined, and it is unclear what the exact claim being made is. The authors should clarify what they're claiming, and further discuss the other methods and comparisons they have made with them in a thorough and fair fashion. 

      We appreciate your request for clarification, and we acknowledge that our definition of "performance" should have been more explicit. We would like to clarify that in this context, we define performance primarily in terms of the proportion of mRNA captured. Our improved method demonstrates a significantly higher rate of rRNA removal compared to other bacterial single-cell library construction methods. This results in a higher proportion of mRNA in our sequencing data, which we consider a key performance metric for single-cell RNA sequencing in bacteria. Additionally, when compared to our previous method, PETRI-seq, our improved approach not only enhances rRNA removal but also reduces library construction costs. This dual improvement in both data quality and cost-effectiveness is what we intended to convey with our performance claim.

      We recognize that a more thorough and fair discussion of other methods and their comparisons would be beneficial. We have summarized the comparison in Table S4 and make a short text discussion in the main text (lines 106-120). This addition provides context for our method and clarifies its position among existing techniques.

      Figure 1D: Do the authors have any explanation for the relatively lower performance of their C. crescentus depletion? 

      We appreciate your attention to detail and the opportunity to address this point. The lower efficiency of rRNA removal in C. crescentus compared to other species can be attributed to inherent differences between species. It's important to note that a single method for rRNA depletion may not be universally effective across all bacterial species due to variations in their genetic makeup and rRNA structures. Different bacterial species can have unique rRNA sequences, secondary structures, or associated proteins that may affect the efficiency of our depletion method. This species-specific variation highlights the challenges in developing a one-size-fits-all approach for bacterial rRNA depletion. While our method has shown high efficiency across several species, the results with C. crescentus underscore the need for continued refinement and possibly species-specific optimizations in rRNA depletion techniques. We thank you for bringing attention to this point, as it provides valuable insight into the complexities of bacterial rRNA depletion and areas for future improvement in our method.

      Line 118: The authors claim RiboD-PETRI has a "consistent ability to unveil within-population heterogeneity", however the preceding paragraph shows it detects potential heterogeneity, but provides no evidence this inferred heterogeneity reflects the reality of gene expression in individual cells. 

      We appreciate your careful reading and the opportunity to clarify this point. We acknowledge that our wording may have been too assertive given the evidence presented. We acknowledge that the subpopulations of cells identified in other species have not undergone experimental verification. Our intention in presenting these results was to demonstrate RiboD-PETRI's capability to detect “potential” heterogeneity consistently across different bacterial species, showcasing the method's sensitivity and potential utility in exploring within-population diversity. However, we agree that without further experimental validation, we cannot definitively claim that these detected differences represent true biological heterogeneity in all cases. We have revised this section to reflect the current state of our findings more accurately, emphasizing that while RiboD-PETRI consistently detects potential heterogeneity across species, further experimental validation would be required to confirm the biological significance of the observations (lines 169-171).

      Figure 1 H&I: I'm not entirely sure what I am meant to see in these figures, presumably some evidence for heterogeneity in gene expression. Are there better visualizations that could be used to communicate this? 

      We appreciate your suggestion for improving the visualization of gene expression heterogeneity. We have explored alternative visualization methods in the revised manuscript. Specifically, for the expression levels of marker genes shown in Figure 1H (which is Figure 2D now), we have created violin plots (Supplementary Fig. 4). These plots offer a more comprehensive view of the distribution of expression levels across different cell populations, making it easier to discern heterogeneity. However, due to the number of marker genes and the resulting volume of data, these violin plots are quite extensive and would occupy a significant amount of space. Given the space constraints of the main figure, we propose to include these violin plots as a Fig. S4 immediately following Figure 1 H&I (which is Figure 2D&E now). This arrangement will allow readers to access more detailed information about these marker genes while maintaining the concise style of the main figure.

      Regarding the pathway enrichment figure (Figure 2E), we have also considered your suggestion for improvement. We attempted to use a dot plot to display the KEGG pathway enrichment of the genes. However, our analysis revealed that the genes were only enriched in a single pathway. As a result, the visual representation using a dot plot still did not produce a particularly aesthetically pleasing or informative figure.

      Line 124: The authors state no significant batch effect was observed, but in the methods on line 344 they specify batch effects were removed using Harmony. It's unclear what exactly S2 is showing without a figure caption, but the authors should clarify this discrepancy. 

      We apologize for any confusion caused by the lack of a clear figure caption for Figure S2 (which is Figure S3D now). To address your concern, in addition to adding figure captions for supplementary figure, we would also like to provide more context about the batch effect analysis. In Supplementary Fig. S3, Panel C represents the results without using Harmony for batch effect removal, while Panel D shows the results after applying Harmony. In both panels A and B, the distribution of samples one and two do not show substantial differences. Based on this observation, we concluded that there was no significant batch effect between the two samples. However, we acknowledge that even subtle batch effects could potentially influence downstream analyses. Therefore, out of an abundance of caution and to ensure the highest quality of our results, we decided to apply Harmony to remove any potential minor batch effects. This approach aligns with best practices in single-cell analysis, where even small technical variations are often accounted for to enhance the robustness of the results.

      To improve clarity, we have revised our manuscript to better explain this nuanced approach: 1. We have updated the statement to reflect that while no major batch effect was observed, we applied batch correction as a precautionary measure (lines 181-182). 2. We have added a detailed caption to Figure S3, explaining the comparison between non-corrected and batch-corrected data. 3. We have modified the methods section to clarify that Harmony was applied as a precautionary step, despite the absence of obvious batch effects (lines 492-493).

      Figure 2D: I found this panel fairly uninformative, is there a better way to communicate this finding? 

      Thank you for your feedback regarding Figure 2D. We have explored alternative ways to present this information, using a dot plot to display the enrichment pathways, as this is often an effective method for visualizing such data. Meanwhile, we also provided a more detailed textual description of the enrichment results in the main text, highlighting the most significant findings.

      Figure 2I: the figure itself and caption say GFP, but in the text and elsewhere the authors say this is a BFP fusion. 

      We appreciate your careful review of our manuscript and figures. We apologize for any confusion this may have caused. To clarify: Both GFP (Green Fluorescent Protein) and BFP (Blue Fluorescent Protein) were indeed used in our experiments, but for different purposes: 1. GFP was used for imaging to observe location of PdeI in bacteria and persister cell growth, which is shown in Figure 4C and 4K. 2. BFP was used for cell sorting, imaging of location in biofilm, and detecting the proportion of persister cells which shown in Figure 4D, 4F-J. To address this inconsistency and improve clarity, we will make the following corrections: 1. We have reviewed the main text to ensure that references to GFP and BFP are accurate and consistent with their respective uses in our experiments. 2. We have added a note in the figure caption for Figure 4C to explicitly state that this particular image shows GFP fluorescence for location of PdeI. 3. In the methods section, we have provided a clear explanation of how both fluorescent proteins were used in different aspects of our study (lines 326-340).

      Line 156: The authors compare prices between RiboD and PETRI-seq. It would be helpful to provide a full cost breakdown, e.g. in supplementary information, as it is unclear exactly how the authors came to these numbers or where the major savings are (presumably in sequencing depth?) 

      We appreciate your suggestion to provide a more detailed cost breakdown, and we agree that this would enhance the transparency and reproducibility of our cost analysis. In response to your feedback, we have prepared a comprehensive cost breakdown that includes all materials and reagents used in the library preparation process. Additionally, we've factored in the sequencing depth (50G) and the unit price for sequencing (25¥/G). These calculations allow us to determine the cost per cell after sequencing. As you correctly surmised, a significant portion of the cost reduction is indeed related to sequencing depth. However, there are also savings in the library preparation steps that contribute to the overall cost-effectiveness of our method. We propose to include this detailed cost breakdown as a supplementary table (Table S6) in our paper. This table will provide a clear, itemized list of all expenses involved, including: 1. Reagents and materials for library preparation 2. Sequencing costs (depth and price per G) 3. Calculated cost per cell.

      Line 291: The design and production of the depletion probes are not clearly explained. How did the authors design them? How were they synthesized? Also, it appears the authors have separate probe sets for E. coli, C. crescentus, and S. aureus - this should be clarified, possibly in the main text.

      Thank you for your important questions regarding the design and production of our depletion probes. We included the detailed probe information in Supplementary Table S1, however, we didn’t clarify the information in the main text due to the constrains of the requirements of the Short Report format in eLife. We appreciate the opportunity to provide clarifications. ​

      The core principle behind our probe design is that the probe sequences are reverse complementary to the r-cDNA sequences. This design allows for specific recognition of r-cDNA. The probes are then bound to magnetic beads, allowing the r-cDNA-probe-bead complexes to be separated from the rest of the library. To address your specific questions: 1. Probe Design: We designed separate probe sets for E. coli, C. crescentus, and S. aureus. Each set was specifically constructed to be reverse complementary to the r-cDNA sequences of its respective bacterial species. This species-specific approach ensures high efficiency and specificity in rRNA depletion for each organism. The hybrid DNA complex wasthen removed by Streptavidin magnetic beads. 2. Probe Synthesis: The probes were synthesized based on these design principles. 3. Species-Specific Probe Sets: You are correct in noting that we used separate probe sets for each bacterial species. We have clarified this important point in the main text to ensure readers understand the specificity of our approach. To further illustrate this process, we have created a schematic diagram showing the principle of rRNA removal and clarified the design principle in figure legend, which we have included in the figure legend of Fig. 1A.

      Line 362: I didn't see a description of the construction of the PdeI-BFP strain, I assume this would be important for anyone interested in the specific work on PdeI. 

      Thank you for your astute observation regarding the construction of the PdeI-BFP strain. We appreciate the opportunity to provide this important information. The PdeI-BFP strain was constructed as follows: 1. We cloned the pdeI gene along with its native promoter region (250bp) into a pBAD vector. 2. The original promoter region of the pBAD vector was removed to avoid any potential interference. 3. This construction enables the expression of the PdeI-BFP fusion protein to be regulated by the native promoter of pdeI, thus maintaining its physiological control mechanisms. 4. The BFP coding sequence was fused to the pdeI gene to create the PdeI-BFP fusion construct. We have added a detailed description of the PdeI-BFP strain construction to our methods section (lines 327-334).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      (1) General remarks: 

      Reconsider using 'advanced' in the title. It is highly generic and misleading. Perhaps 'cost-efficient' would be a more precise substitute. 

      Thank you for your valuable suggestion. After careful consideration, we have decided to use "improved" in the title. Firstly, our method presents an efficient solution to a persistent challenge in bacterial single-cell RNA sequencing, specifically addressing rRNA abundance. Secondly, it facilitates precise exploration of bacterial population heterogeneity. We believe our method encompasses more than just cost-effectiveness, justifying the use of the term "advanced."

      Consider expanding the introduction. The introduction does not explain the setup of the biological question or basic details such as the organism(s) for which the technique has been developed, or which species biofilms were studied. 

      Thank you for your valuable feedback regarding our introduction. We acknowledge our compressed writing style due to constrains of the requirements of the Short Report format in eLife. We appreciate opportunity to expand this crucial section of our manuscript, which will undoubtedly improve the clarity and impact of our manuscript's introduction.

      We revised our introduction (lines 53-80) according to following principles:

      (1) Initial Biological Question: We explained the initial biological question that motivated our research—understanding the heterogeneity in E. coli biofilms—to provide essential context for our technological development.

      (2) Limitations of Existing Techniques: We briefly described the limitations of current single-cell sequencing techniques for bacteria, particularly regarding their application in biofilm studies.

      (3) Introduction of Improved Technique: We introduced our improved technique, initially developed for E. coli.

      (4) Research Evolution: We highlighted how our research has evolved, demonstrating that our technique is applicable not only to E. coli but also to Gram-positive bacteria and other Gram-negative species, showcasing the broad applicability of our method.

      (5) Specific Organisms Studied: We provided examples of the specific organisms we studied, encompassing both Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria.

      (6) Potential Implications: Finally, we outlined the potential implications of our technique for studying bacterial heterogeneity across various species and contexts, extending beyond biofilms.

      (2) Writing remarks: 

      43-45 Reword: "Thus, we address a persistent challenge in bacterial single-cell RNA-seq regarding rRNA abundance, exemplifying the utility of this method in exploring biofilm heterogeneity.". 

      Thank you for highlighting this sentence and requesting a rewording. I appreciate the opportunity to improve the clarity and impact of our statement. We have reworded the sentence as: "Our method effectively tackles a long-standing issue in bacterial single-cell RNA-seq: the overwhelming abundance of rRNA. This advancement significantly enhances our ability to investigate the intricate heterogeneity within biofilms at unprecedented resolution." (lines 47-50)

      49 "Biofilms, comprising approximately 80% of chronic and recurrent microbial infections in the human body..." - probably meant 'contribute to'. 

      Thank you for catching this imprecision in our statement. We have reworded the sentence as: "​Biofilms contribute to approximately 80% of chronic and recurrent microbial infections in the human body...​"

      54-55 Please expand on "this". 

      Thank you for your request to expand on the use of "this" in the sentence. You're right that more clarity would be beneficial here. We have revised and expanded this section in lines 54-69.

      81-84 Unclear why these species samples were either at exponential or stationary phases. The growth stage can influence the proportion of rRNA and other transcripts in the population. 

      Thank you for raising this important point about the growth phases of the bacterial samples used in our study. We appreciate the opportunity to clarify our experimental design. To evaluate the performance of RiboD-PETRI, we designed a comprehensive assessment of rRNA depletion efficiency under diverse physiological conditions, specifically contrasting exponential and stationary phases. This approach allows us to understand how these different growth states impact rRNA depletion efficacy. Additionally, we included a variety of bacterial species, encompassing both gram-negative and gram-positive organisms, to ensure that our findings are broadly applicable across different types of bacteria. By incorporating these variables, we aim to provide insights into the robustness and reliability of the RiboD-PETRI method in various biological contexts. We have included this rationale in our result section (lines 99-106), providing readers with a clear understanding of our experimental design choices.

      86 "compared TO PETRI-seq " (typo). 

      We have corrected this typo in our manuscript.

      94 "gene expression collectively" rephrase. Probably this means coverage of the entire gene set across all cells. Same for downstream usage of the phrase. 

      Thank you for pointing out this ambiguity in our phrasing. Your interpretation of our intended meaning is accurate. We have rephrased the sentence as “transcriptome-wide gene coverage across the cell population”.

      97 What were the median UMIs for the 30,000 cell library {greater than or equal to}15 UMIs? Same question for the other datasets. This would reflect a more comparable statistic with previous studies than the top 3% of the cells for example, since the distributions of the single-cell UMIs typically have a long tail. 

      Thank you for this insightful question and for pointing out the importance of providing more comparable statistics. We agree that median values offer a more robust measure of central tendency, especially for datasets with long-tailed distributions, which are common in single-cell studies. The suggestion to include median Unique Molecular Identifier (UMI) counts would indeed provide a more comparable statistic with previous studies. We have analyzed the median UMIs for our libraries as follows and revised our manuscript according to the analysis (lines 126-130, 133-136, 139-142 and 175-180).

      (1) Median UMI count in Exponential Phase E. coli:

      Total: 102 UMIs per cell

      Top 1,000 cells: 462 UMIs per cell

      Top 5,000 cells: 259 UMIs per cell

      Top 10,000 cells: 193 UMIs per cell

      (2) Median UMI count in Stationary Phase S. aureus:

      Total: 142 UMIs per cell

      Top 1,000 cells: 378 UMIs per cell

      Top 5,000 cells: 207 UMIs per cell

      Top 8,000 cells: 167 UMIs per cell

      (3) Median UMI count in Exponential Phase C. crescentus:

      Total: 182 UMIs per cell

      Top 1,000 cells: 2,190 UMIs per cell

      Top 5,000 cells: 662 UMIs per cell

      Top 10,000 cells: 225 UMIs per cell

      (4) Median UMI count in Static E. coli Biofilm:

      Total of Replicate 1: 34 UMIs per cell

      Total of Replicate 2: 52 UMIs per cell

      Top 1,621 cells of Replicate 1: 283 UMIs per cell

      Top 3,999 cells of Replicate 2: 239 UMIs per cell

      104-105 The performance metric should again be the median UMIs of the majority of the cells passing the filter (15 mRNA UMIs is reasonable). The top 3-5% are always much higher in resolution because of the heavy tail of the single-cell UMI distribution. It is unclear if the performance surpasses the other methods using the comparable metric. Recommend removing this line. 

      We appreciate your suggestion regarding the use of median UMIs as a more appropriate performance metric, and we agree that comparing the top 3-5% of cells can be misleading due to the heavy tail of the single-cell UMI distribution. We have removed the line in question (104-105) that compares our method's performance based on the top 3-5% of cells in the revised manuscript. Instead, we focused on presenting the median UMI counts for cells passing the filter (≥15 mRNA UMIs) as the primary performance metric. This will provide a more representative and comparable measure of our method's performance. We have also revised the surrounding text to reflect this change, ensuring that our claims about performance are based on these more robust statistics (lines 126-130, 133-136, 139-142 and 175-180).

      106-108 The sequencing saturation of the libraries (in %), and downsampling analysis should be added to illustrate this point. 

      Thank you for your valuable suggestion. Your recommendation to add sequencing saturation and downsampling analysis is highly valuable and will help better illustrate our point. Based on your feedback, we have revised our manuscript by adding the following content:

      To provide a thorough evaluation of our sequencing depth and library quality, we performed sequencing saturation analysis on our sequencing samples. The findings reveal that our sequencing saturation is 100% (Fig. 8A & B), indicating that our sequencing depth is sufficient to capture the diversity of most transcripts. To further illustrate the impact of our downstream analysis on the datasets, we have demonstrated the data distribution before and after applying our filtering criteria (Fig. S1B & C). These figures effectively visualized the influence of our filtering process on the data quality and distribution. After filtering, we can have a more refined dataset with reduced noise and outliers, which enhances the reliability of our downstream analyses.

      We have also ensured that a detailed description of the sequencing saturation method is included in the manuscript to provide readers with a comprehensive understanding of our methodology. We appreciate your feedback and believe these additions significantly improve our work.

      122: Please provide more details about the biofilm setup, including the media used. I did not find them in the methods. 

      We appreciate your attention to detail, and we agree that this information is crucial for the reproducibility of our experiments. We propose to add the following information to our methods section (lines 311-318):

      "For the biofilm setup, bacterial cultures were grown overnight. The next day, we diluted the culture 1:100 in a petri dish. We added 2ml of LB medium to the dish. If the bacteria contain a plasmid, the appropriate antibiotic needs to be added to LB. The petri dish was then incubated statically in a growth chamber for 24 hours. After incubation, we performed imaging directly under the microscope. The petri dishes used were glass-bottom dishes from Biosharp (catalog number BS-20-GJM), allowing for direct microscopic imaging without the need for cover slips or slides. This setup allowed us to grow and image the biofilms in situ, providing a more accurate representation of their natural structure and composition.​"

      125: "sequenced 1,563 reads" missing "with" 

      Thank you for correcting our grammar. We have revisd the phrase as “sequenced with 1,563 reads”.

      126: "283/239 UMIs per cell" unclear. 283 and 239 UMIs per cell per replicate, respectively? 

      Thank you for correcting our grammar. We have revised the phrase as “283 and 239 UMIs per cell per replicate, respectively” (lines 184).

      Figure 1D: Please indicate where the comparison datasets are from. 

      We appreciate your question regarding the source of the comparison datasets in Figure 1D. All data presented in Figure 1D are from our own sequencing experiments. We did not use data from other publications for this comparison. Specifically, we performed sequencing on E. coli cells in the exponential growth phase using three different library preparation methods: RiboD-PETRI, PETRI-seq, and RNA-seq. The data shown in Figure 1D represent a comparison of UMIs and/or reads correlations obtained from these three methods. All sequencing results have been uploaded to the Gene Expression Omnibus (GEO) database. The accession number is GSE260458. We have updated the figure legend for Figure 1D to clearly state that all datasets are from our own experiments, specifying the different methods used.

      Figure 1I, 2D: Unable to interpret the color block in the data. 

      We apologize for any confusion regarding the interpretation of the color blocks in Figures 1I and 2D (which are Figure 2E, 3E now). The color blocks in these figures represent the p-values of the data points. The color scale ranges from red to blue. Red colors indicate smaller p-values, suggesting higher statistical significance and more reliable results. Blue colors indicate larger p-values, suggesting lower statistical significance and less reliable results. We have updated the figure legends for both Figure 2E and Figure 3E to include this explanation of the color scale. Additionally, we have added a color legend to each figure to make the interpretation more intuitive for readers.

      Figure1H and 2C: Gene names should be provided where possible. The locus tags are highly annotation-dependent and hard to interpret. Also, a larger size figure should be helpful. The clusters 2 and 3 in 2C are the most important, yet because they have few cells, very hard to see in this panel. 

      We appreciate your suggestions for improving the clarity and interpretability of Figures 1H and 2C (which is Figure 2D, 3D now). We have replaced the locus tags with gene names where possible in both figures. We have increased the size of both figures to improve visibility and readability. We have also made Clusters 2 and 3 in Figure 3D more prominent in the revised figure. Despite their smaller cell count, we recognize their importance and have adjusted the visualization to ensure they are clearly visible. We believe these modifications will significantly enhance the clarity and informativeness of Figures 2D and 3D.​

      (3) Questions to consider further expanding on, by more analyses or experiments and in the discussion: 

      What are the explanations for the apparently contradictory upregulation of c-di-GMP in cells expressing higher PdeI levels? How could a phosphodiesterase lead to increased c-di-GMP levels? 

      We appreciate the reviewer's observation regarding the seemingly contradictory relationship between increased PdeI expression and elevated c-di-GMP levels. This is indeed an intriguing finding that warrants further explanation.

      PdeI was predicted to be a phosphodiesterase responsible for c-di-GMP degradation. This prediction is based on sequence analysis where PdeI contains an intact EAL domain known for degrading c-di-GMP. However, it is noteworthy that PdeI also contains a divergent GGDEF domain, which is typically associated with c-di-GMP synthesis (Fig S8). This dual-domain architecture suggests that PdeI may engage in complex regulatory roles. Previous studies have shown that the knockout of the major phosphodiesterase PdeH in E. coli leads to the accumulation of c-di-GMP. Further, a point mutation on PdeI's divergent GGDEF domain (G412S) in this PdeH knockout strain resulted in decreased c-di-GMP levels2, implying that the wild-type GGDEF domain in PdeI contributes to the maintenance or increase of c-di-GMP levels in the cell. Importantly, our single-cell experiments showed a positive correlation between PdeI expression levels and c-di-GMP levels (Response Fig. 9B). In this revision, we also constructed PdeI(G412S)-BFP mutation strain. Notably, our observations of this strain revealed that c-di-GMP levels remained constant despite increasing BFP fluorescence, which serves as a proxy for PdeI(G412S) expression levels (Fig. 4D). This experimental evidence, along with domain analysis, suggests that PdeI could contribute to c-di-GMP synthesis, rebutting the notion that it solely functions as a phosphodiesterase. HPLC LC-MS/MS analysis further confirmed that PdeI overexpression, induced by arabinose, led to an upregulation of c-di-GMP levels (Fig. 4E). These results strongly suggest that PdeI plays a significant role in upregulating c-di-GMP levels. Our further analysis revealed that PdeI contains a CHASE (cyclases/histidine kinase-associated sensory) domain. Combined with our experimental results demonstrating that PdeI is a membrane-associated protein, we hypothesize that PdeI functions as a sensor that integrates environmental signals with c-di-GMP production under complex regulatory mechanisms.

      We have also included this explanation (lines 193-217) and the supporting experimental data (Fig. 4D & 4J) in our manuscript to clarify this important point. Thank you for highlighting this apparent contradiction, as it has allowed us to provide a more comprehensive explanation of our findings.

      What about the rest of the genes in cluster 2 of the biofilm? They should be used to help interpret the association between PdeI and c-di-GMP. 

      We understand your interest in the other genes present in cluster 2 of the biofilm and their potential relationship to PdeI and c-di-GMP. After careful analysis, we have determined that the other marker genes in this cluster do not have a significant impact on biofilm formation. Furthermore, we have not found any direct relationship between these genes and c-di-GMP or PdeI. Our focus on PdeI in this cluster is due to its unique and significant role in c-di-GMP regulation and biofilm formation, as demonstrated by our experimental results. While the other genes in this cluster may be co-expressed, their functions appear to be unrelated to the PdeI and c-di-GMP pathway we are investigating. We chose not to elaborate on these genes in our main discussion as they do not contribute directly to our understanding of the PdeI and c-di-GMP association. Instead, we could include a brief mention of these genes in the manuscript, noting that they were found to be unrelated to the PdeI-c-di-GMP pathway. This would provide a more comprehensive view of the cluster composition while maintaining focus on the key findings related to PdeI and c-di-GMP.

      Author response image 2.

      Protein-protein interactions of marker genes in cluster 2 of 24-hour static biofilms of E coli data.

      A verification is needed that the protein fusion to PdeI functional/membrane localization is not due to protein interactions with fluorescent protein fusion. 

      We appreciate your concern regarding the potential impact of the fluorescent protein fusion on the functionality and membrane localization of PdeI. It is crucial to verify that the observed effects are attributable to PdeI itself and not an artifact of its fusion with the fluorescent protein. To address this matter, we have incorporated a control group expressing only the fluorescent protein BFP (without the PdeI fusion) under the same promoter. This experimental design allows us to differentiate between effects caused by PdeI and those potentially arising from the fluorescent protein alone.

      Our results revealed the following key observations:

      (1) Cellular Localization: The GFP alone exhibited a uniform distribution in the cytoplasm of bacterial cells, whereas the PdeI-GFP fusion protein was specifically localized to the membrane (Fig. 4C).

      (2) Localization in the Biofilm Matrix: BFP-positive cells were distributed throughout the entire biofilm community. In contrast, PdeI-BFP positive cells localized at the bottom of the biofilm, where cell-surface adhesion occurs (Fig 4F).

      (3) c-di-GMP Levels: Cells with high levels of BFP displayed no increase in c-di-GMP levels. Conversely, cells with high levels of PdeI-BFP exhibited a significant increase in c-di-GMP levels (Fig. 4D).

      (4) Persister Cell Ratio: Cells expressing high levels of BFP showed no increase in persister ratios, while cells with elevated levels of PdeI-BFP demonstrated a marked increase in persister ratios (Fig. 4J).

      These findings from the control experiments have been included in our manuscript (lines 193-244, Fig. 4C, 4D, 4F, 4G and 4J), providing robust validation of our results concerning the PdeI fusion protein. They confirm that the observed effects are indeed due to PdeI and not merely artifacts of the fluorescent protein fusion.

      (!) Vrabioiu, A. M. & Berg, H. C. Signaling events that occur when cells of Escherichia coli encounter a glass surface. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America 119, doi:10.1073/pnas.2116830119 (2022). https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2116830119

      (2)bReinders, A. et al. Expression and Genetic Activation of Cyclic Di-GMP-Specific Phosphodiesterases in Escherichia coli. J Bacteriol 198, 448-462 (2016). https://doi.org:10.1128/JB.00604-15

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Major comments (Public Reviews)

      Generality of grid cells

      We appreciate the reviewers’ concern regarding the generality of our approach, and in particular for analogies in nonlinear spaces. In that regard, there are at least two potential directions that could be pursued. One is to directly encode nonlinear structures (such as trees, rings, etc.) with grid cells, to which DPP-A could be applied as described in our model. The TEM model [1] suggests that grid cells in the medial entorhinal may form a basis set that captures structural knowledge for such nonlinear spaces, such as social hierarchies and transitive inference when formalized as a connected graph. Another would be to use eigen-decomposition of the successor representation [2], a learnable predictive representation of possible future states that has been shown by Stachenfield et al. [3] to provide an abstract structured representation of a space that is analogous to the grid cell code. This general-purpose mechanism could be applied to represent analogies in nonlinear spaces [4], for which there may not be a clear factorization in terms of grid cells (i.e., distinct frequencies and multiple phases within each frequency). Since the DPP-A mechanism, as we have described it, requires representations to be factored in this way it would need to be modified for such purpose. Either of these approaches, if successful, would allow our model to be extended to domains containing nonlinear forms of structure. To the extent that different coding schemes (i.e., basis sets) are needed for different forms of structure, the question of how these are identified and engaged for use in a given setting is clearly an important one, that is not addressed by the current work. We imagine that this is likely subserved by monitoring and selection mechanisms proposed to underlie the capacity for selective attention and cognitive control [5], though the specific computational mechanisms that underlie this function remain an important direction for future research. We have added a discussion of these issues in Section 6 of the updated manuscript.

      (1) Whittington, J.C., Muller, T.H., Mark, S., Chen, G., Barry, C., Burgess, N. and Behrens, T.E., 2020. The Tolman-Eichenbaum machine: unifying space and relational memory through generalization in the hippocampal formation. Cell, 183(5), pp.1249-1263.

      (2) Dayan, P., 1993. Improving generalization for temporal difference learning: The successor representation. Neural computation, 5(4), pp.613-624.

      (3) Stachenfeld, K.L., Botvinick, M.M. and Gershman, S.J., 2017. The hippocampus as a predictive map. Nature neuroscience, 20(11), pp.1643-1653.

      (4) Frankland, S., Webb, T.W., Petrov, A.A., O'Reilly, R.C. and Cohen, J., 2019. Extracting and Utilizing Abstract, Structured Representations for Analogy. In CogSci (pp. 1766-1772).

      (5) Shenhav, A., Botvinick, M.M. and Cohen, J.D., 2013. The expected value of control: an integrative theory of anterior cingulate cortex function. Neuron, 79(2), pp.217-240. Biological plausibility of DPP-A

      We appreciate the reviewers’ interest in the biological plausibility of our model, and in particular the question of whether and how DPP-A might be implemented in a neural network. In that regard, Bozkurt et al. [1] recently proposed a biologically plausible neural network algorithm using a weighted similarity matrix approach to implement a determinant maximization criterion, which is the core idea underlying the objective function we use for DPP-A, suggesting that the DPP-A mechanism we describe may also be biologically plausible. This could be tested experimentally by exposing individuals (e.g., rodents or humans) to a task that requires consistent exposure to a subregion, and evaluating the distribution of activity over the grid cells. Our model predicts that high frequency grid cells should increase their firing rate more than low frequency cells, since the high frequency grid cells maximize the determinant of the covariance matrix of the grid cell embeddings. It is also worth noting that Frankland et al. [2] have suggested that the use of DPPs may also help explain a mutual exclusivity bias observed in human word learning and reasoning. While this is not direct evidence of biological plausibility, it is consistent with the idea that the human brain selects representations for processing that maximize the volume of the representational space, which can be achieved by maximizing the DPP-A objective function defined in Equation 6. We have added a comment to this effect in Section 6 of the updated manuscript.

      (1) Bozkurt, B., Pehlevan, C. and Erdogan, A., 2022. Biologically-plausible determinant maximization neural networks for blind separation of correlated sources. Advances in Neural Information Processing Systems, 35, pp.13704-13717.

      (2) Frankland, S. and Cohen, J., 2020. Determinantal Point Processes for Memory and Structured Inference. In CogSci.

      Simplicity of analogical problem and comparison to other models using this task

      First, we would like to point out that analogical reasoning is a signatory feature of human cognition, which supports flexible and efficient adaptation to novel inputs that remains a challenge for most current neural network architectures. While humans can exhibit complex and sophisticated forms of analogical reasoning [1, 2, 3], here we focused on a relatively simple form, that was inspired by Rumelhart’s parallelogram model of analogy [4,5] that has been used to explain traditional human verbal analogies (e.g., “king is to what as man is to woman?”). Our model, like that one, seeks to explain analogical reasoning in terms of the computation of simple Euclidean distances (i.e., A - B = C - D, where A, B, C, D are vectors in 2D space). We have now noted this in Section 2.1.1 of the updated manuscript. It is worth noting that, despite the seeming simplicity of this construction, we show that standard neural network architectures (e.g., LSTMs and transformers) struggle to generalize on such tasks without the use of the DPP-A mechanism.

      Second, we are not aware of any previous work other than Frankland et al. [6] cited in the first paragraph of Section 2.2.1, that has examined the capacity of neural network architectures to perform even this simple form of analogy. The models in that study were hardcoded to perform analogical reasoning, whereas we trained models to learn to perform analogies. That said, clearly a useful line of future work would be to scale our model further to deal with more complex forms of representation and analogical reasoning tasks [1,2,3]. We have noted this in Section 6 of the updated manuscript.

      (1) Holyoak, K.J., 2012. Analogy and relational reasoning. The Oxford handbook of thinking and reasoning, pp.234-259.

      (2) Webb, T., Fu, S., Bihl, T., Holyoak, K.J. and Lu, H., 2023. Zero-shot visual reasoning through probabilistic analogical mapping. Nature Communications, 14(1), p.5144.

      (3) Lu, H., Ichien, N. and Holyoak, K.J., 2022. Probabilistic analogical mapping with semantic relation networks. Psychological review.

      (4) Rumelhart, D.E. and Abrahamson, A.A., 1973. A model for analogical reasoning. Cognitive Psychology, 5(1), pp.1-28.

      (5) Mikolov, T., Chen, K., Corrado, G. and Dean, J., 2013. Efficient estimation of word representations in vector space. arXiv preprint arXiv:1301.3781.

      (6) Frankland, S., Webb, T.W., Petrov, A.A., O'Reilly, R.C. and Cohen, J., 2019. Extracting and Utilizing Abstract, Structured Representations for Analogy. In CogSci (pp. 1766-1772).

      Clarification of DPP-A attentional modulation

      We would like to clarify several concerns regarding the DPP-A attentional modulation. First, we would like to make it clear that ω is not meant to correspond to synaptic weights, and thank the reviewer for noting the possibility for confusion on this point. It is also distinct from a biasing input, which is often added to the product of the input features and weights. Rather, in our model ω is a vector, and diag (ω) converts it into a matrix with ω as the diagonal of the matrix, and the rest entries are zero. In Equation 6, diag(ω) is matrix multiplied with the covariance matrix V, which results in elementwise multiplication of ω with column vectors of V, and hence acts more like gates. We have noted this in Section 2.2.2 and have changed all instances of “weights (ω)” to “gates (ɡ)” in the updated manuscript. We have also rewritten the definition of Equation 6 and uses of it (as in Algorithm 1) to depict the use of sigmoid nonlinearity (σ) to , so that the resulting values are always between 0 and 1.

      Second, we would like to clarify that we don’t compute the inner product between the gates ɡ and the grid cell embeddings x anywhere in our model. The gates within each frequency were optimized (independent of the task inputs), according to Equation 6, to compute the approximate maximum log determinant of the covariance matrix over the grid cell embeddings individually for each frequency. We then used the grid cell embeddings belonging to the frequency that had the maximum within-frequency log determinant for training the inference module, which always happened to be grid cells within the top three frequencies. Author response image 1 (also added to the Appendix, Section 7.10 of the updated manuscript) shows the approximate maximum log determinant (on the y-axis) for the different frequencies (on the x-axis).

      Author response image 1.

      Approximate maximum log determinant of the covariance matrix over the grid cell embeddings (y-axis) for each frequency (x-axis), obtained after maximizing Equation 6.

      Third, we would like to clarify our interpretation of why DPP-A identified grid cell embeddings corresponding to the highest spatial frequencies, and why this produced the best OOD generalization (i.e., extrapolation on our analogy tasks). It is because those grid cell embeddings exhibited greater variance over the training data than the lower frequency embeddings, while at the same time the correlations among those grid cell embeddings were lower than the correlations among the lower frequency grid cell embeddings. The determinant of the covariance matrix of the grid cell embeddings is maximized when the variances of the grid cell embeddings are high (they are “expressive”) and the correlation among the grid cell embeddings is low (they “cover the representational space”). As a result, the higher frequency grid cell embeddings more efficiently covered the representational space of the training data, allowing them to efficiently capture the same relational structure across training and test distributions which is required for OOD generalization. We have added some clarification to the second paragraph of Section 2.2.2 in the updated manuscript. Furthermore, to illustrate this graphically, Author response image 2 (added to the Appendix, Section 7.10 of the updated manuscript) shows the results after the summation of the multiplication of the grid cell embeddings over the 2d space of 1000x1000 locations, with their corresponding gates for 3 representative frequencies (left, middle and right panels showing results for the lowest, middle and highest grid cell frequencies, respectively, of the 9 used in the model), obtained after maximizing Equation 6 for each grid cell frequency. The color code indicates the responsiveness of the grid cells to different X and Y locations in the input space (lighter color corresponding to greater responsiveness). Note that the dark blue area (denoting regions of least responsiveness to any grid cell) is greatest for the lowest frequency and nearly zero for the highest frequency, illustrating that grid cell embeddings belonging to the highest frequency more efficiently cover the representational space which allows them to capture the same relational structure across training and test distributions as required for OOD generalization.

      Author response image 2.

      Each panel shows the results after summation of the multiplication of the grid cell embeddings over the 2d space of 1000x1000 locations, with their corresponding gates for a particular frequency, obtained after maximizing Equation 6 for each grid cell frequency. The left, middle, and right panels show results for the lowest, middle, and highest grid cell frequencies, respectively, of the 9 used in the model. Lighter color in each panel corresponds to greater responsiveness of grid cells at that particular location in the 2d space.

      Finally, we would like to clarify how the DPP-A attentional mechanism is different from the attentional mechanism in the transformer module, and why both are needed for strong OOD generalization. Use of the standard self-attention mechanism in transformers over the inputs (i.e., A, B, C, and D for the analogy task) in place of DPP-A would lead to weightings of grid cell embeddings over all frequencies and phases. The objective function for the DPP-A represents an inductive bias, that selectively assigns the greatest weight to all grid cell embeddings (i.e., for all phases) of the frequency for which the determinant of the covariance matrix is greatest computed over the training space. The transformer inference module then attends over the inputs with the selected grid cell embeddings based on the DPP-A objective. We have added a discussion of this point in Section 6 of the updated manuscript.

      We would like to thank the reviewers for their recommendations. We have tried our best to incorporate them into our updated manuscript. Below we provide a detailed response to each of the recommendations grouped for each reviewer.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors)

      (1) It would be helpful to see some equations for R in the main text.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have now added some equations explaining the working of R in Section 2.2.3 of the updated manuscript.

      (2) Typo: p 11 'alongwith' -> 'along with'

      We have changed all instances of ‘alongwith’ to ‘along with’ in the updated manuscript.

      (3) Presumably, this is related to equivariant ML - it would be helpful to comment on this.

      Yes, this is related to equivariant ML, since the properties of equivariance hold for our model. Specifically, the probability distribution after applying softmax remains the same when the transformation (translation or scaling) is applied to the scores for each of the answer choices obtained from the output of the inference module, and when the same transformation is applied to the stimuli for the task and all the answer choices before presenting as input to the inference module to obtain the scores. We have commented on this in Section 2.2.3 of the updated manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors)

      (1) Page 2 - "Webb et al." temporal context - they should also cite and compare this to work by Marc Howard on generalization based on multi-scale temporal context.

      While we appreciate the important contributions that have been made by Marc Howard and his colleagues to temporal coding and its role in episodic memory and hippocampal function, we would like to clarify that his temporal context model is unrelated to the temporal context normalization developed by Webb et al. (2020) and mentioned on Page 2. The former (Temporal Context Model) is a computational model that proposes a role for temporal coding in the functions of the medial temporal lobe in support of episodic recall, and spatial navigation. The latter (temporal context normalization) is a normalization procedure proposed for use in training a neural network, similar to batch normalization [1], in which tensor normalization is applied over the temporal instead of the batch dimension, which is shown to help with OOD generalization. We apologize for any confusion engendered by the similarity of these terms, and failure to clarify the difference between these, that we have now attempted to do in a footnote on Page 2.

      Ioffe, S. and Szegedy, C., 2015, June. Batch normalization: Accelerating deep network training by reducing internal covariate shift. In International conference on machine learning (pp. 448-456). pmlr.

      (2) page 3 - "known to be implemented in entorhinal" - It's odd that they seem to avoid citing the actual biology papers on grid cells. They should cite more of the grid cell recording papers when they mention the entorhinal cortex (i.e. Hafting et al., 2005; Barry et al., 2007; Stensola et al., 2012; Giocomo et al., 2011; Brandon et al., 2011).

      We have now cited the references mentioned below, on page 3 after the phrase “known to be implemented in entohinal cortex”.

      (1) Barry, C., Hayman, R., Burgess, N. and Jeffery, K.J., 2007. Experience-dependent rescaling of entorhinal grids. Nature neuroscience, 10(6), pp.682-684.

      (2) Stensola, H., Stensola, T., Solstad, T., Frøland, K., Moser, M.B. and Moser, E.I., 2012. The entorhinal grid map is discretized. Nature, 492(7427), pp.72-78.

      (3) Giocomo, L.M., Hussaini, S.A., Zheng, F., Kandel, E.R., Moser, M.B. and Moser, E.I., 2011. Grid cells use HCN1 channels for spatial scaling. Cell, 147(5), pp.1159-1170.

      (4) Brandon, M.P., Bogaard, A.R., Libby, C.P., Connerney, M.A., Gupta, K. and Hasselmo, M.E., 2011. Reduction of theta rhythm dissociates grid cell spatial periodicity from directional tuning. Science, 332(6029), pp.595-599.

      (3) To enhance the connection to biological systems, they should cite more of the experimental and modeling work on grid cell coding (for example on page 2 where they mention relational coding by grid cells). Currently, they tend to cite studies of grid cell relational representations that are very indirect in their relationship to grid cell recordings (i.e. indirect fMRI measures by Constaninescu et al., 2016 or the very abstract models by Whittington et al., 2020). They should cite more papers on actual neurophysiological recordings of grid cells that suggest relational/metric representations, and they should cite more of the previous modeling papers that have addressed relational representations. This could include work on using grid cell relational coding to guide spatial behavior (e.g. Erdem and Hasselmo, 2014; Bush, Barry, Manson, Burges, 2015). This could also include other papers on the grid cell code beyond the paper by Wei et al., 2015 - they could also cite work on the efficiency of coding by Sreenivasan and Fiete and by Mathis, Herz, and Stemmler.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing the additional references to our attention. We have cited the references mentioned below on page 2 of the updated manuscript.

      (1) Erdem, U.M. and Hasselmo, M.E., 2014. A biologically inspired hierarchical goal directed navigation model. Journal of Physiology-Paris, 108(1), pp.28-37.

      (2) Sreenivasan, S. and Fiete, I., 2011. Grid cells generate an analog error-correcting code for singularly precise neural computation. Nature neuroscience, 14(10), pp.1330-1337.

      (3) Mathis, A., Herz, A.V. and Stemmler, M., 2012. Optimal population codes for space: grid cells outperform place cells. Neural computation, 24(9), pp.2280-2317.

      (4) Bush, D., Barry, C., Manson, D. and Burgess, N., 2015. Using grid cells for navigation. Neuron, 87(3), pp.507-520

      (4) Page 3 - "Determinantal Point Processes (DPPs)" - it is rather annoying that DPP is defined after DPP-A is defined. There ought to be a spot where the definition of DPP-A is clearly stated in a single location.

      We agree it makes more sense to define Determinantal Point Process (DPP) before DPP-A. We have now rephrased the sentences accordingly. In the “Abstract”, the sentence now reads “Second, we propose an attentional mechanism that operates over the grid cell code using Determinantal Point Process (DPP), which we call DPP attention (DPP-A) - a transformation that ensures maximum sparseness in the coverage of that space.” We have also modified the second paragraph of the “Introduction”. The modified portion now reads “b) an attentional objective inspired from Determinantal Point Processes (DPPs), which are probabilistic models of repulsion arising in quantum physics [1], to attend to abstract representations that have maximum variance and minimum correlation among them, over the training data. We refer to this as DPP attention or DPP-A.” Due to this change, we removed the last sentence of the fifth paragraph of the “Introduction”.

      (1) Macchi, O., 1975. The coincidence approach to stochastic point processes. Advances in Applied Probability, 7(1), pp.83-122.

      (5) Page 3 - "the inference module R" - there should be some discussion about how this component using LSTM or transformers could relate to the function of actual brain regions interacting with entorhinal cortex. Or if there is no biological connection, they should state that this is not seen as a biological model and that only the grid cell code is considered biological.

      While we agree that the model is not construed to be as specific about the implementation of the R module, we assume that — as a standard deep learning component — it is likely to map onto neocortical structures that interact with the entorhinal cortex and, in particular, regions of the prefrontal-posterior parietal network widely believed to be involved in abstract relational processes [1,2,3,4]. In particular, the role of the prefrontal cortex in the encoding and active maintenance of abstract information needed for task performance (such as rules and relations) has often been modeled using gated recurrent networks, such as LSTMs [5,6], and the posterior parietal cortex has long been known to support “maps” that may provide an important substrate for computing complex relations [4]. We have added some discussion about this in Section 2.2.3 of the updated manuscript.

      (1) Waltz, J.A., Knowlton, B.J., Holyoak, K.J., Boone, K.B., Mishkin, F.S., de Menezes Santos, M., Thomas, C.R. and Miller, B.L., 1999. A system for relational reasoning in human prefrontal cortex. Psychological science, 10(2), pp.119-125.

      (2) Christoff, K., Prabhakaran, V., Dorfman, J., Zhao, Z., Kroger, J.K., Holyoak, K.J. and Gabrieli, J.D., 2001. Rostrolateral prefrontal cortex involvement in relational integration during reasoning. Neuroimage, 14(5), pp.1136-1149.

      (3) Knowlton, B.J., Morrison, R.G., Hummel, J.E. and Holyoak, K.J., 2012. A neurocomputational system for relational reasoning. Trends in cognitive sciences, 16(7), pp.373-381.

      (4) Summerfield, C., Luyckx, F. and Sheahan, H., 2020. Structure learning and the posterior parietal cortex. Progress in neurobiology, 184, p.101717.

      (5) Frank, M.J., Loughry, B. and O’Reilly, R.C., 2001. Interactions between frontal cortex and basal ganglia in working memory: a computational model. Cognitive, Affective, & Behavioral Neuroscience, 1, pp.137-160.

      (6) Braver, T.S. and Cohen, J.D., 2000. On the control of control: The role of dopamine in regulating prefrontal function and working memory. Control of cognitive processes: Attention and performance XVIII, (2000).

      (6) Page 4 - "Learned weighting w" - it is somewhat confusing to use "w" as that is commonly used for synaptic weights, whereas I understand this to be an attentional modulation vector with the same dimensionality as the grid cell code. It seems more similar to a neural network bias input than a weight matrix.

      We refer to the first paragraph of our response above to the topic “Clarification of DPP-A attentional modulation” under “Major comments (Public Reviews)”, which contains our response to this issue.

      (7) Page 4 - "parameterization of w... by two loss functions over the training set." - I realize that this has been stated here, but to emphasize the significance to a naïve reader, I think they should emphasize that the learning is entirely focused on the initial training space, and there is NO training done in the test spaces. It's very impressive that the parameterization is allowing generalization to translated or scaled spaces without requiring ANY training on the translated or scaled spaces.

      We have added the sentence “Note that learning of parameter occurs only over the training space and is not further modified during testing (i.e. over the test spaces)” to the updated manuscript.

      (8) Page 4 - "The first," - This should be specific - "The first loss function"

      We have changed it to “The first loss function” in the updated manuscript.

      (9) Page 4 - The analogy task seems rather simplistic when first presented (i.e. just a spatial translation to different parts of a space, which has already been shown to work in simulations of spatial behavior such as Erdem and Hasselmo, 2014 or Bush, Barry, Manson, Burgess, 2015). To make the connection to analogy, they might provide a brief mention of how this relates to the analogy space created by word2vec applied to traditional human verbal analogies (i.e. king-man+woman=queen).

      We agree that the analogy task is simple, and recognize that grid cells can be used to navigate to different parts of space over which the test analogies are defined when those are explicitly specified, as shown by Erdem and Hasselmo (2014) and Bush, Barry, Manson, and Burgess (2015). However, for the analogy task, the appropriate set of grid cell embeddings must be identified that capture the same relational structure between training and test analogies to demonstrate strong OOD generalization, and that is achieved by the attentional mechanism DPP-A. As suggested by the reviewer’s comment, our analogy task is inspired by Rumelhart’s parallelogram model of analogy [1,2] (and therefore similar to traditional human verbal analogies) in as much as it involves differences (i.e A - B = C - D, where A, B, C, D are vectors in 2D space). We have now noted this in Section 2.1.1 of the updated manuscript.

      (1) Rumelhart, D.E. and Abrahamson, A.A., 1973. A model for analogical reasoning. Cognitive Psychology, 5(1), pp.1-28.

      (2) Mikolov, T., Chen, K., Corrado, G. and Dean, J., 2013. Efficient estimation of word representations in vector space. arXiv preprint arXiv:1301.3781.

      (10) Page 5 - The variable "KM" is a bit confusing when it first appears. It would be good to re-iterate that K and M are separate points and KM is the vector between these points.

      We apologize for the confusion on this point. KM is meant to refer to an integer value, obtained by multiplying K and M, which is added to both dimensions of A, B, C and D, which are points in ℤ2, to translate them to a different region of the space. K is an integer value ranging from 1 to 9 and M is also an integer value denoting the size of the training region, which in our implementation is 100. We have clarified this in Section 2.1.1 of the updated manuscript.

      (11) Page 5 - "two continuous dimensions (Constantinescu et al._)" - this ought to give credit to the original study showing the abstract six-fold rotational symmetry for spatial coding (Doeller, Barry and Burgess).

      We have now cited the original work by Doeller et al. [1] along with Constantinescu et al. (2016) in the updated manuscript after the phrase “two continuous dimensions” on page 5.

      (1) Doeller, C.F., Barry, C. and Burgess, N., 2010. Evidence for grid cells in a human memory network. Nature, 463(7281), pp.657-661.

      (12) Page 6 - Np=100. This is done later, but it would be clearer if they right away stated that Np*Nf=900 in this first presentation.

      We have now added this sentence after Np=100. “Hence Np*Nf=900, which denotes the number of grid cells.”

      (13) Page 6 - They provide theorem 2.1 on the determinant of the covariance matrix of the grid code, but they ought to cite this the first time this is mentioned.

      We have cited Gilenwater et al. (2012) before mentioning theorem 2.1. The sentence just before that reads “We use the following theorem from Gillenwater et al. (2012) to construct :”

      (14) Page 6 - It would greatly enhance the impact of the paper if they could give neuroscientists some sense of how the maximization of the determinant of the covariance matrix of the grid cell code could be implemented by a biological circuit. OR at least to show an example of the output of this algorithm when it is used as an inner product with the grid cell code. This would require plotting the grid cell code in the spatial domain rather than the 900 element vector.

      We refer to our response above to the topic “Biological plausibility of DPP-A” and second, third, and fourth paragraphs of our response above to the topic “Clarification of DPP-A attentional modulation” under “Major comments (Public Reviews)”, which contain our responses to this issue.

      (15) Page 6 - "That encode higher spatial frequencies..." This seems intuitive, but it would be nice to give a more intuitive description of how this is related to the determinant of the covariance matrix.

      We refer to the third paragraph of our response above to the topic “Clarification of DPP-A attentional modulation” under “Major comments (Public Reviews)”, which contains our response to this issue.

      (16) Page 7 - log of both sides... Nf is number of frequencies... Would be good to mention here that they are referring to equation 6 which is only mentioned later in the paragraph.

      As suggested, we now refer to Equation 6 in the updated manuscript. The sentence now reads “This is achieved by maximizing the determinant of the covariance matrix over the within frequency grid cell embeddings of the training data, and Equation 6 is obtained by applying the log on both sides of Theorem 2.1, and in our case where refers to grid cells of a particular frequency.”

      (17) Page 7 - Equation 6 - They should discuss how this is proposed to be implemented in brain circuits.

      We refer to our response above to the topic “Biological plausibility of DPP-A” under “Major comments (Public Reviews)”, which contains our response to this issue.

      18) Page 9 - "egeneralize" - presumably this is a typo?

      Yes. We have corrected it to “generalize” in the updated manuscript.

      (19) Page 9 - "biologically plausible encoding scheme" - This is valid for the grid cell code, but they should be clear that this is not valid for other parts of the model, or specify how other parts of the model such as DPP-A could be biologically plausible.

      We refer to our response above to the topic “Biological plausibility of DPP-A” under “Major comments (Public Reviews)”, which contains our response to this issue.

      (20) Page 12 - Figure 7 - comparsion to one-hots or smoothed one-hots. The text should indicate whether the smoothed one-hots are similar to place cell coding. This is the most relevant comparison of coding for those knowledgeable about biological coding schemes.

      Yes, smoothed one-hots are similar to place cell coding. We now mention this in Section 5.3 of the updated manuscript.

      (21) Page 12 - They could compare to a broader range of potential biological coding schemes for the overall space. This could include using coding based on the boundary vector cell coding of the space, band cell coding (one dimensional input to grid cells), or egocentric boundary cell coding.

      We appreciate these useful suggestions, which we now mention as potentially valuable directions for future work in the second paragraph of Section 6 of the updated manuscript.

      (22) Page 13 - "transformers are particularly instructive" - They mention this as a useful comparison, but they might discuss further why a much better function is obtained when attention is applied to the system twice (once by DPP-A and then by a transformer in the inference module).

      We refer to the last paragraph of our response above to the topic “Clarification of DPP-A attentional modulation” under “Major comments (Public Reviews)”, which contains our response to this issue.

      (23) Page 13 - "Section 5.1 for analogy and Section 5.2 for arithmetic" - it would be clearer if they perhaps also mentioned the specific figures (Figure 4 and Figure 6) presenting the results for the transformer rather than the LSTM.

      We have now rephrased to also refer to the figures in the updated manuscript. The phrase now reads “a transformer (Figure 4 in Section 5.1 for analogy and Figure 6 in Section 5.2 for arithmetic tasks) failed to achieve the same level of OOD generalization as the network that used DPP-A.”

      (24) Page 14 - "statistics of the training data" - The most exciting feature of this paper is that learning during the training space analogies can so effectively generalize to other spaces based on the right attention DPP-A, but this is not really made intuitive. Again, they should illustrate the result of the xT w inner product to demonstrate why this work so effectively!

      We refer to the second, third, and fourth paragraphs of our response above to the topic “Clarification of DPP-A attentional modulation” under “Major comments (Public Reviews)”, which contains our response to this issue.

      (25) Bibliography - Silver et al., go paper - journal name "nature" should be capitalized. There are other journal titles that should be capitalized. Also, I believe eLife lists family names first.

      We have made the changes to the bibliography of the updated manuscript suggested by the reviewer.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We thank the editors and the reviewers for their time and constructive comments, which helped us to improve our manuscript “The Hungry Lens: Hunger Shifts Attention and Attribute Weighting in Dietary Choice” substantially. In the following we address the comments in depth:

      R1.1: First, in examining some of the model fits in the supplements, e.g. Figures S9, S10, S12, S13, it looks like the "taste weight" parameter is being constrained below 1. Theoretically, I understand why the authors imposed this constraint, but it might be unfairly penalizing these models. In theory, the taste weight could go above 1 if participants had a negative weight on health. This might occur if there is a negative correlation between attractiveness and health and the taste ratings do not completely account for attractiveness. I would recommend eliminating this constraint on the taste weight.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion to test a multi-attribute attentional drift-diffusion model (maaDDM) that does not constrain the taste and health weights to the range of 0 and 1. We tested two versions of such a model. First, we removed the phi-transformation, allowing the weight to take on any value (see Author response image 1). The results closely matched those found in the original model. Partially consistent with the reviewer’s comment, the health weight became slightly negative in some individuals in the hungry condition. However, this model had convergence issues with a maximal Rhat of 4.302. Therefore, we decided to run a second model in which we constrained the weights to be between -1 and 2. Again, we obtained effects that matched the ones found in the original model (see Author response image 2), but again we had convergence issues. These convergence issues could arise from the fact that the models become almost unidentifiable, when both attention parameters (theta and phi) as well as the weight parameters are unconstrained.

      Author response image 1.

      Author response image 2.

      R1.2: Second, I'm not sure about the mediation model. Why should hunger change the dwell time on the chosen item? Shouldn't this model instead focus on the dwell time on the tasty option?

      We thank the reviewer for spotting this inconsistency. In our GLMMs and the mediation model, we indeed used the proportion of dwell time on the tasty option as predictors and mediator, respectively. The naming and description of this variable was inconsistent in our manuscript and the supplements. We have now rephrased both consistently.

      R1.3: Third, while I do appreciate the within-participant design, it does raise a small concern about potential demand effects. I think the authors' results would be more compelling if they replicated when only analyzing the first session from each participant. Along similar lines, it would be useful to know whether there was any effect of order.

      R3.2: On the interpretation side, previous work has shown that beliefs about the nourishing and hunger-killing effectiveness of drinks or substances influence subjective and objective markers of hunger, including value-based dietary decision-making, and attentional mechanisms approximated by computational models and the activation of cognitive control regions in the brain. The present study shows differences between the protein shake and a natural history condition (fasted, state). This experimental design, however, cannot rule between alternative interpretations of observed effects. Notably, effects could be due to (a) the drink's active, nourishing ingredients, (b) consuming a drink versus nothing, or (c) both. […]

      R3 Recommendation 1:

      Therefore, I recommend discussing potential confounds due to expectancy or placebo effects on hunger ratings, dietary decision-making, and attention. […] What were verbatim instructions given to the participants about the protein shake and the fasted, hungry condition? Did participants have full knowledge about the study goals (e.g. testing hunger versus satiation)? Adding the instructions to the supplement is insightful for fully harnessing the experimental design and frame.

      Both reviewer 1 and reviewer 3 raise potential demand/ expectancy effects, which we addressed in several ways. First, we have translated and added participants’ instructions to the supplements SOM 6, in which we transparently communicate the two conditions to the participants. Second, we have added a paragraph in the discussion section addressing potential expectancy/demand effects in our design:

      “The present results and supplementary analyses clearly support the two-fold effect of hunger state on the cognitive mechanisms underlying choice. However, we acknowledge potential demand effects arising from the within-subject Protein-shake manipulation. A recent study (Khalid et al., 2024) showed that labeling water to decrease or increase hunger affected participants subsequent hunger ratings and food valuations. For instance, participants expecting the water to decrease hunger showed less wanting for food items. DDM modeling suggested that this placebo manipulation affected both drift rate and starting point. The absence of a starting point effect in our data speaks against any prior bias in participants due to any demand effects. Yet, we cannot rule out that such effects affected the decision-making process, for example by increasing the taste weight (and thus the drift rate) in the hungry condition.”

      Third, we followed Reviewer 1’s suggestion and tested, whether the order of testing affected the results. We did so by adding “order” to the main choice and response time (RT) GLMM. We neither found an effect of order on choice (β<sub>order</sub>=-0.001, SE\=0.163, p<.995), nor on RT (β<sub>order</sub>=0.106, SE\=0.205, p<.603) and the original effects remain stable (see Author response table 1a and Author response table 1 2a below). Further, we used two ANOVAs to compare models with and without the predictor “order”. The ANOVAs indicated that GLMMs without “order” better explained choice and RT (see Author response table 1b and Author response table 2b). Taken together, these results suggest that demand effects played a negligible role in our study.

      Author response table 1.

      a) GLMM: Results of Tasty vs Healthy Choice Given Condition, Attention and Order

      Note. p-values were calculated using Satterthwaites approximations. Model equation: choice ~ condition + scale(_rel_taste_DT) + order + (1+condition|subject);_ rel_taste_DT refers to the relative dwell time on the tasty option; order with hungry/sated as the reference

      b) Model Comparison

      Author response table 2.

      a) GLMM: Response Time Given Condition, Choice, Attention and Order

      Note. p-values were calculated using Satterthwaites approximations. Model equation: RT ~ choice + condition + scale(_rel_taste_DT) + order + choice * scale(rel_taste_DT) (1+condition|subject);_ rel_taste_DT refers to the relative dwell time on the tasty option; order with hungry/sated as the reference

      b) Model Comparison

      R1.4: Fourth, the authors report that tasty choices are faster. Is this a systematic effect, or simply due to the fact that tasty options were generally more attractive? To put this in the context of the DDM, was there a constant in the drift rate, and did this constant favor the tasty option?

      We thank the reviewer for their observant remark about faster tasty choices and potential links to the drift rate. While our starting point models show that there might be a small starting point bias towards the taste boundary, which would result in faster tasty decisions, we took a closer look at the simulated value differences as obtained in our posterior predictive checks to see if the drift rate was systematically more extreme for tasty choices (Author response image 3). In line with the reviewer’s suggestion that tasty options were generally more attractive, tasty decisions were associated with higher value differences (i.e., further away from 0) and consequently with faster decisions. This indicates that the main reason for faster tasty choices was a higher drift rate in those trials (as a consequence of the combination of attribute weights and attribute values rather than “a constant in the drift rate”), whereas a strong starting point bias played only a minor role.

      Author response image 3.

      Note. Value Difference as obtained from Posterior Predictive Checks of the maaDDM2𝜙 in hungry and sated condition for healthy (green) and tasty (orange) choices.

      R1.5: Fifth, I wonder about the mtDDM. What are the units on the "starting time" parameters? Seconds? These seem like minuscule effects. Do they align with the eye-tracking data? In other words, which attributes did participants look at first? Was there a correlation between the first fixations and the relative starting times? If not, does that cast doubt on the mtDDM fits? Did the authors do any parameter recovery exercises on the mtDDM?

      We thank Reviewer 1 for their observant remarks about the mtDDM. In line with their suggestion, we have performed a parameter recovery which led to a good recovery of all parameters except relative starting time (rst). In addition, we had convergence issues of rst as revealed by parameter Rhats around 20. Together these results indicate potential limitations of the mtDDM when applied to tasks with substantially different visual representations of attributes leading to differences in dwell time for each attribute (see Figure 3b and Figure S6b). We have therefore decided not to report the mtDDM in the main paper, only leaving a remark about convergence and recovery issues.

      R2: My main criticism, which doesn't affect the underlying results, is that the labeling of food choices as being taste- or health-driven is misleading. Participants were not cued to select health vs taste. Studies in which people were cued to select for taste vs health exist (and are cited here). Also, the label "healthy" is misleading, as here it seems to be strongly related to caloric density. A high-calorie food is not intrinsically unhealthy (even if people rate it as such). The suggestion that hunger impairs making healthy decisions is not quite the correct interpretation of the results here (even though everyone knows it to be true). Another interpretation is that hungry people in negative calorie balance simply prefer more calories.

      First, we agree with the reviewer that it should be tested to what extent participants’ choice behavior can be reduced to contrasting taste vs. health aspects of their dietary decisions (but note that prior to making decisions, they were asked to rate these aspects and thus likely primed to consider them in the choice task). Having this question in mind, we performed several analyses to demonstrate the suitability of framing decisions as contrasting taste vs. health aspects (including the PCA reported in the Supplemental Material).

      Second, we agree with the reviewer in that despite a negative correlation (Author response image 4) between caloric density and health, high-caloric items are not intrinsically unhealthy. This may apply only to two stimuli in our study (nuts and dried fruit), which are also by our participants recognized as such.

      Finally, Reviewer 2’s alternative explanation, that hungry individuals prefer more calories is tested in SOM5. In line with the reviewer’s interpretation, we show that hungry individuals indeed are more likely to select higher caloric options. This effect is even stronger than the effect of hunger state on tasty vs healthy choice. However, in this paper we were interested in the effect of hunger state on tasty vs healthy decisions, a contrast that is often used in modeling studies (e.g., Barakchian et al., 2021; Maier et al., 2020; Rramani et al., 2020; Sullivan & Huettel, 2021). In sum, we agree with Reviewer 2 in all aspects and have tested and provided evidence for their interpretation, which we do not see to stand in conflict with ours.

      Author response image 4.

      Note. strong negative correlation between health ratings and objective caloric content in both hungry (r\=-.732, t(64)=-8.589, p<.001) and sated condition (r\=-.731, t(64)=-8.569, p<.001).

      R3.1: On the positioning side, it does not seem like a 'bad' decision to replenish energy states when hungry by preferring tastier, more often caloric options. In this sense, it is unclear whether the observed behavior in the fasted state is a fallacy or a response to signals from the body. The introduction does mention these two aspects of preferring more caloric food when hungry. However, some ambiguity remains about whether the study results indeed reflect suboptimal choice behavior or a healthy adaptive behavior to restore energy stores.

      We thank Reviewer 3 for this remark, which encouraged us to interpret the results also form a slightly different perspective. We agree that choosing tasty over healthy options under hunger may be evolutionarily adaptive. We have now extended a paragraph in our discussion linking the cognitive mechanisms to neurobiological mechanisms:

      “From a neurobiological perspective, both homeostatic and hedonic mechanisms drive eating behaviour. While homeostatic mechanisms regulate eating behaviour based on energy needs, hedonic mechanisms operate independent of caloric deficit (Alonso-Alonso et al., 2015; Lowe & Butryn, 2007; Saper et al., 2002). Participants’ preference for tasty high caloric food options in the hungry condition aligns with a drive for energy restoration and could thus be taken as an adaptive response to signals from the body. On the other hand, our data shows that participants preferred less healthy options also in the sated condition. Here, hedonic drivers could predominate indicating potentially maladaptive decision-making that could lead to adverse health outcomes if sustained. Notably, our modeling analyses indicated that participants in the sated condition showed reduced attentional discounting of health information, which poses potential for attention-based intervention strategies to counter hedonic hunger. This has been investigated for example in behavioral (Barakchian et al., 2021; Bucher et al., 2016; Cheung et al., 2017; Sullivan & Huettel, 2021), eye-tracking (Schomaker et al., 2022; Vriens et al., 2020) and neuroimaging studies (Hare et al., 2011; Hutcherson & Tusche, 2022) showing that focusing attention on health aspects increased healthy choice. For example, Hutcherson and Tusche (2022) compellingly demonstrated that the mechanism through which health cues enhance healthy choice is shaped by increased value computations in the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (dlPFC) when cue and choice are conflicting (i.e., health cue, tasty choice). In the context of hunger, these findings together with our analyses suggest that drawing people’s attention towards health information will promote healthy choice by mitigating the increased attentional discounting of such information in the presence of tempting food stimuli.”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      R1: The Results section needs to start with a brief description of the task. Otherwise, the subsequent text is difficult to understand.

      We included a paragraph at the beginning of the results section briefly describing the experimental design.

      R1/R2: In Figure 1a it might help the reader to have a translation of the rating scales in the figure legend.

      We have implemented an English rating scale in Figure 1a.

      R2: Were the ratings redone at each session? E.g. were all tastiness ratings for the sated session made while sated? This is relevant as one would expect the ratings of tastiness and wanting to be affected by the current fed state.

      The ratings were done at the respective sessions. As shown in S3a there is a high correlation of taste ratings across conditions. We decided to take the ratings of the respective sessions (rather than mean ratings across sessions) to define choice and taste/health value in the modeling analyses, for several reasons. First, by using mean ratings we might underestimate the impact of particularly high or low ratings that drove choice in the specific session (regression to the mean). Second, for the modeling analysis in particular, we want to model a decision-making process at a particular moment in time. Consequently, the subjective preferences in that moment are more accurate than mean preferences.

      R2: It would be helpful to have a diagram of the DDM showing the drifting information to the boundary, and the key parameters of the model (i.e. showing the nDT, drift rate, boundary, and other parameters). (Although it might be tricky to depict all 9 models).

      We thank the reviewer for their recommendation and have created Figure 6, which illustrates the decision-making process as depicted by the maaDDM2phi.

      R3.1: Past work has shown that prior preferences can bias/determine choices. This effect might have played a role during the choice task, which followed wanting, taste, health, and calorie ratings during which participants might have already formed their preferences. What are the authors' positions on such potential confound? How were the food images paired for the choice task in more detail?

      The data reported here, were part of a larger experiment. Next to the food rating and choice task, participants also completed a social preference rating and choice task, as well as rating and choice tasks for intertemporal discounting. These tasks were counterbalanced such that first the three rating tasks were completed in counterbalanced order and second the three choice tasks were completed in the same order (e.g. food rating, social rating, intertemporal rating; food choice, social choice, intertemporal choice). This means that there were always two other tasks between the food rating and food choice task. In addition, to the temporal delay between rating and choice tasks, our modeling analyses revealed that models including a starting point bias performed worse than those without the bias. Although we cannot rule out that participants might occasionally have tried to make their decision before the actual task (e.g., by keeping their most/least preferred option in mind and then automatically choosing/rejecting it in the choice task), we think that both our design as well as our modeling analyses speak against any systematic bias of preference in our choice task. The options were paired such that approximately half of the trials were random, while for the other half one option was rated healthier and the other option was rated tastier (e.g., Sullivan & Huettel, 2021)

      R3.2: In line with this thought, theoretically, the DDMs could also be fitted to reaction times and wanting ratings (binarized). This could be an excellent addition to corroborate the findings for choice behavior.

      We have implemented several alternative modeling analyses, including taste vs health as defined by Nutri-Score (Table S12 and Figures S22-S30) and higher wanted choice vs healthy choice (Table S13; Figure S30-34). Indeed, these models corroborate those reported in the main text demonstrating the robustness of our findings.

      R3.3: The principal component analysis was a good strategy for reducing the attribute space (taste, health, wanting, calories, Nutriscore, objective calories) into two components. Still, somehow, this part of the results added confusion to harnessing in which of the analyses the health attribute corresponded only to the healthiness ratings and taste to the tastiness ratings and if and when the components were used as attributes. This source of confusion could be mitigated by more clearly stating what health and taste corresponded to in each of the analyses.

      We thank the reviewer for this recommendation and have now reported the PCA before reporting the behavioural results to clarify that choices are binarized based on participants’ taste and health ratings, rather than the composite scores. We have chosen this approach, as it is closer to our hypotheses and improves interpretability.

      R3.4: From the methods, it seems that 66 food images were used, and 39 fell into A, B, C, and D Nutriscores. How were the remaining 27 images selected, and how healthy and tasty were the food stimuli overall?

      The selection of food stimuli was done in three steps: First, from Charbonnier and collegues (2016) standardized food image database (available at osf.io/cx7tp/) we excluded food items that were not familiar in Germany/unavailable in regular German supermarkets. Second, we excluded products that we would not be able to incentivize easily (i.e., fastfood, pastries and items that required cooking/baking/other types of preparation). Third, we added the Nutri Scores to the remaining products aiming to have an equal number of items for each Nutri-Score, of which approximately half of the items were sweet and the other half savory. This resulted in a final stimuli-set of 66 food images (13 items =A; 13 items=B; 12 items=C; 14 items =D; 14 items = E). The experiment with including the set of food stimuli used in our study is also uploaded here: osf.io/pef9t/.With respect to the second question, we would like to point out that preference of food stimuli is very individual, therefore we obtained the ratings (taste, health, wanting and estimated caloric density) of each participant individually. However, we also added the objective total calories, which is positively correlated subjective caloric density and negatively correlated with Nutri-Score (coded as A=5; B=4; C=3; D=2; E=1) and health ratings (see Figure S7).

      R3.5: It seems that the degrees of freedom for the paired t-test comparing the effects of the condition hungry versus satiated on hunger ratings were 63, although the participant sample counted 70. Please verify.

      This is correct and explained in the methods section under data analysis: “Due to missing values for one timepoint in six participants (these participants did not fill in the VAS and PANAS before the administration of the Protein Shake in the sated condition) the analyses of the hunger state manipulation had a sample size of 64.”

      R3.5: Please add the range of BMI and age of participants. Did all participants fall within a healthy BMI range

      The BMI ranged from 17.306 to 48.684 (see Author response image 5), with the majority of participants falling within a normal BMI (i.e., between 18.5 and 24.9. In our sample, 3 participants had a BMI lager than 30. By using subject as a random intercept in our GLMMs we accounted for potential deviations in their response.

      Author response image 5.

      R3.5: Defining the inference criterion used for the significance of the posterior parameter chains in more detail can be pedagogical for those new to or unfamiliar with inferences drawn from hierarchical Bayesian model estimations and Bayesian statistics.

      We have added an explanation of the highest density intervals and what they mean with respect to our data in the respective result section.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      eLife Assessment

      This manuscript makes valuable contributions to our understanding of cell polarisation dynamics and its underlying mechanisms. Through the development of a computational pipeline, the authors provide solid evidence that compensatory actions, whether regulatory or spatial, are essential for the robustness of the polarisation pattern. However, a more comprehensive validation against experimental data and a proper estimation of model parameters are required for further characterization and predictions in natural systems, such as the C. elegans embryo.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) for their pertinent assessment. We have carefully considered the constructive recommendations and made the necessary revisions in the manuscript, which are also detailed in this response letter. We have implemented most of the revisions requested by the reviewers. For the few requests we did not fully accept, we have provided justifications. The corresponding revisions in both the Manuscript and Supplementary Information are highlighted with a yellow background. To provide a more comprehensive validation against experimental data and model parameters used for characterizing and predicting natural systems, we reproduced the qualitative and semi-quantitative phenomenon in three more experimental groups previously published (Section 2.5; Fig. S8) [Gotta et al., Curr. Biol., 2001; Aceto et al., Dev. Biol., 2006]. Combined with the original experiments (Section 2.5; Fig. S7) [Hoege et al., Curr. Biol., 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2013], now we have reproduced five experimental groups in total (two acting on LGL-1 and three on CDC-42), comprising eight perturbed conditions and using wild-type as the reference. These results effectively demonstrate how comprehensively the network structure and parameters capture the characteristics of the C. elegans embryo. We have also acknowledged the limitations of the current cell polarization model and provided, in 2. Results and 3. Discussion and conclusion, a detailed outline of potential model improvements.

      Joint Public Review:

      The polarisation phenomenon describes how proteins within a signalling network segregate into different spatial domains. This phenomenon holds fundamental importance in biology, contributing to various cellular processes such as cell migration, cell division, and symmetry breaking in embryonic morphogenesis. In this manuscript, the authors assess the robustness of stable asymmetric patterns using both a previously proposed minimal model of a 2-node network and a more realistic 5-node network based on the C. elegans cell polarisation network, which exhibits anterior-posterior asymmetry. They introduce a computational pipeline for numerically exploring the dynamics of a given reaction-diffusion network and evaluate the stability of a polarisation pattern. Typically, the establishment of polarisation requires the mutual inhibition of two groups of proteins, forming a 2-node antagonistic network. Through a reaction-diffusion formulation, the authors initially demonstrate that the widely-used 2-node antagonistic network for creating polarised patterns fails to maintain the polarised pattern in the face of simple modifications. However, the collapsed polarisation can be restored by combining two or more opposing regulations. The position of the interface can be adjusted with spatially varied kinetic parameters. Furthermore, the authors show that the 5-node network utilised by C. elegans is the most stable for maintaining polarisation against parameter changes, identifying key parameters that impact the position of the interface.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) for the pertinent summary!

      While the results offer novel and insightful perspectives on the network's robustness for cell polarisation, the manuscript lacks comprehensive validation against experimental data, justified node-node network interactions, and proper estimation of model parameters (based on quantitative measurements or molecular intensity distributions). These limitations significantly restrict the utility of the model in making meaningful predictions or advancing our understanding of cell polarisation and pattern formation in natural systems, such as the C. elegans embryo.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) for the comment!

      To provide a more comprehensive validation against experimental data and model parameters, we reproduced the qualitative and semi-quantitative phenomenon in three more experimental groups previously published (Section 2.5; Fig. S8) [Gotta et al., Curr. Biol., 2001; Aceto et al., Dev. Biol., 2006]. Combined with the original experiments (Section 2.5; Fig. S7) [Hoege et al., Curr. Biol., 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2013], now we have reproduced five experimental groups in total (two acting on LGL-1 and three on CDC-42), comprising eight perturbed conditions and using wild-type as the reference. These meaningful predictions effectively demonstrate the utility of our model’s network structure and parameters in advancing our understanding of cell polarisation and pattern formation in natural systems, exemplified by the C. elegans embryo.

      We have also acknowledged the limitations of the current cell polarization model and provided, in 2. Results and 3. Discussion and conclusion, a detailed outline of potential model improvements. The limitations include, but are not limited to, issues involving “node-node network interactions” and the “proper estimation of model parameters (based on quantitative measurements or molecular intensity distributions)”, both of which rely on experimental measurements of biological information.   However, comprehensive experimental measurement data on every molecular species, their interactions, and each species’ intensity distribution in space and time were not fully available from prior research. Refinement is lacking for some of these interactions, potentially requiring years of additional experimentation. Moreover, for certain species at specific developmental stages, only relative (rather than absolute) intensity measurements are available. We agreed that such information is essential for establishing a more utilizable model and discussed it thoroughly in 3. Discussion and conclusion. From a theoretical perspective, we adopted assumptions from the previous literature and constructed a minimal model for a specific cell polarization phase to investigate the network's robustness, supported by five experimental groups and eight perturbed conditions in the C. elegans embryo.

      The study extends its significance by examining how cells maintain pattern stability amid spatial parameter variations, which are common in natural systems due to extracellular and intracellular fluctuations. The authors found that in the 2-node network, varying individual parameters spatially disrupt the pattern, but stability is restored with compensatory variations. Additionally, the polarisation interface stabilises around the step transition between parameter values, making its localisation tunable. This suggests a potential biological mechanism where localisation might be regulated through signalling perception.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) for the pertinent review!

      Focusing on the C. elegans cell polarisation network, the authors propose a 5-node network based on an exhaustive literature review, summarised in a supplementary table. Using their computational pipeline, they identify several parameter sets capable of achieving stable polarisation and claim that their model replicates experimental behaviour, even when simulating mutants. They also found that among 34 possible network structures, the wild-type network with mutual inhibition is the only one that proves viable in the computational pipeline. Compared with previous studies, which typically considered only 2- or 3-node networks, this analysis provides a more complete and realistic picture of the signalling network behind polarisation in the C. elegans embryo. In particular, the model for C. elegans cell polarisation paves the way for further in silico experiments to investigate the role of the network structure over the polarisation dynamics. The authors suggest that the natural 5-node network of C. elegans is optimised for maintaining cell polarisation, demonstrating the elegance of evolution in finding the optimal network structure to achieve certain functions.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) for the pertinent review!

      Noteworthy limitations are also found in this work. To simplify the model for numerical exploration, the authors assume several reactions have equivalent dynamics, reducing the parameter space to three independent dimensions. While the authors briefly acknowledge this limitation in the "Discussion and Conclusion" section, further analysis might be required to understand the implications. For instance, it is not clear how the results depend on the particular choice of parameters. The authors showed that adding additional regulation might disrupt the polarised pattern, with the conclusion apparently depending on the strength of the regulation. Even for the 5-node wild-type network, which is the most robust, adding a strong enough self-activation of [A], as done in the 2-node network, will probably cause the polarised pattern to collapse as well.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) for the comment!

      Now we have thoroughly expanded our acknowledgment of the model’s limitations in in 2. Results and 3. Discussion and conclusion. To rule out the equivalent dynamics assumption undermines our conclusions, we have added simulations showing that the cell polarization pattern stability does not depend on the exact strength of each regulation, provided the regulations on both sides are initially balanced as a whole (Fig. S5). Specifically, we used a Monte Carlo method to sample a wide range of various parameter values ( i.e., γ, α, k<sub>1</sub>, k<sub>2</sub>, q<sub>1</sub>, q<sub>2</sub> and [X<sub>c</sub>) for all nodes and regulations in simple 2-node network and C. elegans 5-node network, to achieve pattern stability. Under these conditions (i.e., without any reduction in the parameter space), single-sided self-regulation, single-sided additional regulation, and unequal system parameters still cause the stable polarized pattern to collapse, consistent with our conclusions in the simplified conditions with the parameter space reduced to three independent dimensions.

      Additionally, the authors utilise parameter values that are unrealistic, fail to provide units for some of them, and assume unknown parameter values without justification. The model appears to have non-dimensionalised length but not time, resulting in a mix of dimensional and non-dimensional variables that can be confusing. Furthermore, they assume equal values for Hill coefficients and many parameters associated with activation and inhibition pathways, while setting inhibition intensity parameters to 1. These arbitrary choices raise concerns about the fidelity of the proposed model in representing the real system, as their selected values could potentially differ by many orders of magnitude from the actual parameters.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) for the comment!

      We apologize for the confusion. The non-dimensionalised parameter values are adopted from previous theoretical research [Seirin-Lee et al., Cells, 2020], which originates from the experimental measurement in [Goehring et al., J. Cell Biol., 2011; Goehring et al., Science, 2011]. With the in silico time set as 2 sec per step, now we have added the Supplemental Text justifying how the units are removed during non-dimensionalization. This demonstrates that the derived non-dimensionalized parameter in this paper achieves realistic values on the same order of magnitude as those observed in reality, confirming the fidelity of the proposed model in representing the real system.

      The assumption of “equal values for Hill coefficients and many parameters associated with activation and inhibition pathways” is to reduce the parameter space for affordable computational cost. It is a widely-used strategy to fix Hill coefficients [Seirin-Lee et al., J. Theor. Biol., 2015; Seirin-Lee, Bull. Math. Biol., 2021] and unify parameter values for different pathways in network research about both cell polarization [Marée et al., Bull. Math. Biol., 2006; Goehring et al., Science, 2011; Trong et al., New J. Phys., 2014] and other biological topics (e.g., plasmid transferring in the microbial community [Wang et al., Nat. Commun., 2020]), to control computational cost. Nevertheless, to rule out that the equivalent dynamics assumption undermines our conclusions, we have added simulations showing that the cell polarization pattern stability does not depend on the exact parameter values associated with activation and inhibition pathways, provided the regulations on both sides are initially balanced as a whole (Fig. S5). Specifically, we used a Monte Carlo method to sample a wide range of various parameter values (i.e_., _γ, α, k<sub>1</sub>, k<sub>2</sub>, q<sub>1</sub>, q<sub>2</sub> and [X<sub>c</sub>) for all nodes and regulations in simple 2-node network and C. elegans 5-node network, to achieve pattern stability. Under these conditions ( i.e., without any reduction in the parameter space), single-sided self-regulation, single-sided additional regulation, and unequal system parameters still cause the stable polarized pattern to collapse, consistent with our conclusions in the simplified conditions with the parameter space reduced to three independent dimensions.

      To confirm the fidelity of the proposed model in representing the real system, we reproduced the qualitative and semi-quantitative phenomenon in three more experimental groups previously published (Section 2.5; Fig. S8) [Gotta et al., Curr. Biol., 2001; Aceto et al., Dev. Biol., 2006]. Combined with the original experiments (Section 2.5; Fig. 5; Fig. S7) [Hoege et al., Curr. Biol., 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2013], now we have reproduced five experimental groups in total (two acting on LGL-1 and three on CDC-42), comprising eight perturbed conditions and using wild-type as the reference. These results effectively demonstrate how comprehensively the network structure and parameters capture the characteristics of the C. elegans embryo. We have also acknowledged the limitations of the current cell polarization model and provided, in 2. Results and 3. Discussion and conclusion, a detailed outline of potential model improvements.

      It is worth noting that, although a strict match between numerical and realistic parameter values with consistent units is always helpful, a lot of notable pure numerical studies successfully unveil principles that help interpret [Ma et al., Cell, 2009] and synthesize real biological systems [Chau et al., Cell, 2012]. These studies suggest that numerical analysis in biological systems remains powerful, even when comprehensive experimental data from prior research are not fully available.

      The definition of stability and its evaluation in the proposed pipeline might also be too narrow. Throughout the paper, the authors discuss the stability of the polarised pattern, checked by an exhaustive search of the parameter space where the system reaches a steady state with a polarised pattern instead of a homogeneous pattern. It is not clear if the stability is related to the linear stability analysis of the reaction terms, as conducted in Goehring et al. (Science, 2011), which could indicate if a homogeneous state exists and whether it is stable or unstable. The stability test is performed through a pipeline procedure where they always start from a polarised pattern described by their model and observe how it evolves over time. It is unclear if the conclusions depend on the chosen initial conditions. Particularly, it is unclear what would happen if the initial distribution of posterior molecules is not exactly symmetric with respect to the anterior molecules, or if the initial polarisation is not strong.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) for the comment!

      The definition of stability and its evaluation in the proposed pipeline consider two criteria: 1. The pattern is polarized; 2. The pattern is stable. Following simulations, figures, and videos (Fig. 1-6; Fig. S1-S5; Fig. S7-S9; Movie S1-S5) have sufficiently demonstrated that the parameters and networks set up capture the cell polarization dynamis regarding both the stable and unstable states very well.

      Now we have added new simulation on alternative initial conditions. They demonstrating the necessity of a polarized initial pattern set up independently of the reaction-diffusion network during the establishment phase, probably through additional mechanisms such as the active actomyosin contractility and flow [Cuenca et al., Development, 2003; Gross et al., Nat. Phys., 2019]. Our conclusions ( i.e., single-sided self-regulation, single-sided additional regulation, and unequal system parameters cause the stable polarized pattern to collapse) have little dependence on the chosen initial conditions as long as the unsymmetric initial patterns can set up a stable polarized pattern. A part of the simulations institutively show our conclusions still hold if the initial distribution of posterior molecules is not exactly symmetric with respect to the anterior molecules, or if the initial polarisation is not strong (Fig. S4 and Fig. S9).

      Regarding the biological interpretation and relevance of the model, it overlooks some important aspects of the C. elegans polarisation system. The authors focus solely on a reaction-diffusion formulation to reproduce the polarisation pattern. However, the polarisation of the C. elegans zygote consists of two distinct phases: establishment and maintenance, with actomyosin dynamics playing a crucial role in both phases (see Munro et al., Dev Cell 2004; Shivas & Skop, MBoC 2012; Liu et al., Dev Biol 2010; Wang et al., Nat Cell Biol 2017). Both myosin and actin are crucial to maintaining the localisation of PAR proteins during cell polarisation, yet the authors neglect cortical flows during the establishment phase and any effects driven by myosin and actin in their model, failing to capture the system's complexity. How this affects the proposed model and conclusions about the establishment of the polarisation pattern needs careful discussion. Additionally, they assume that diffusion in the cytoplasm is infinitely fast and that cytoplasmic flows do not play any role in cell polarity. Finite cytoplasmic diffusion combined with cytoplasmic flows could compromise the stability of the anterior-posterior molecular distributions. The authors claim that cytoplasmic diffusion coefficients are two orders of magnitude higher than membrane diffusion coefficients, but they seem to differ by only one order of magnitude (Petrášek et al., Biophys. J. 2008). The strength of cytoplasmic flows has been quantified by a few studies, including Cheeks et al., and Curr Biol 2004.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) for the comment!

      Indeed, previous research highlighted the importance of convective cortical flow in orchestrating the localisation of PAR proteins during the establishment phase of polarisation formation [Goehring et al., J. Cell Biol., 2011; Rose et al., WormBook, 2014; Beatty et al., Development, 2013]. However, during the maintenance phase, the non-muscle myosin II (NMY-2) is regulated downstream by the PAR protein network rather than serving as the primary upstream factor controlling PAR protein localization [Goehring et al., J. Cell Biol., 2011; Rose et al., WormBook, 2014; Beatty et al., Development, 2013]. While some theoretical studies integrated both reaction-diffusion dynamics and the effects of myosin and actin [Tostevin, 2008; Goehring, Science, 2011], others focused exclusively on reaction-diffusion dynamics [Dawes et al., Biophys. J., 2011; Seirin-Lee et al., Cells, 2020]. We have now clarified the distinction between the establishment and maintenance phases in 1. Introduction, emphasized our research focus on the reaction-diffusion dynamics during the maintenance phase in 2. Results, and provided a discussion of the omitted actomyosin dynamics to foster a more comprehensive understanding in the future in 3. Discussion and conclusion. The effect of the establishment phase is studied as the initial condition for the cell polarization simulation solely governed by reaction-diffusion dynamics, with new simulations demonstrating the necessity of a polarized initial pattern set up independently of the reaction-diffusion network during the establishment phase, probably through additional mechanisms such as the active actomyosin contractility and flow [Cuenca et al., Development, 2003; Gross et al., Nat. Phys., 2019].

      Cytoplasmic and membrane diffusion coefficients differ by two orders of magnitude according to previous experimental measurements on PAR-2 and PAR-6 [Goehring et al., J. Cell Biol., 2011; Lim et al., Cell Rep., 2021]. Many previous C. elegans cell polarization models have incorporated mass-conservation model combined with finite cytoplasmic diffusion, but this model description can lead to reverse spatial concentration distribution between the cell membrane and cytosol [Fig. 3 of Seirin-Lee et al., J. Theor. Biol., 2016; Fig. 2ab of Seirin-Lee et al., J. Math. Biol., 2020], disobeying experimental observation [Fig. 4A of Sailer et al., Dev. Cell, 2015; Fig. 1A of Lim et al., Cell Rep., 2021]. This implies that the infinite cytoplasmic diffusion, without precise experiment-based parameter assignment or accounting for other hidden biological processes ( e.g., protein production and degradation), may be inappropriate in modeling the real spatial concentration distributions distinguished between the cell membrane and cytosol. To address this issue, some theoretical research incorporated protein production and degradation into their model, to acquire the consistent spatial concentration distribution between the cell membrane and cytosol [Tostevin et al., Biophys. J., 2008]. More definitive experimental data on the spatiotemporal changes in protein diffusion, production, and degradation are essential for providing a more realistic representation of cellular dynamics and enhancing the model's predictive power.

      Now we have acknowledged the possibly overlooked aspects of the C. elegans polarisation system in 3. Discussion and conclusion, a detailed outline of potential model improvements. Those aspects include, but are not limited to, issues involving “neglect cortical flows” and the “diffusion in the cytoplasm is infinitely fast”. From a theoretical perspective, we adopted assumptions from the previous literature and constructed a minimal model for a specific cell polarization phase to investigate the network's robustness. The meaningful predictions of five experimental groups and eight perturbed conditions in the C. elegans embryo faithfully supports the biological interpretation and relevance of the model.

      Although the authors compare their model predictions to experimental observations, particularly in reproducing mutant behaviours, they do not explicitly show or discuss these comparisons in detail. Diffusion coefficients and off-rates for some PAR proteins have been measured (Goehring et al., JCB 2011), but the authors seem to use parameter values that differ by many orders of magnitude, perhaps due to applied scaling. To ensure meaningful predictions, whether their proposed model captures the extensive published data should be evaluated. Various cellular/genetic perturbations have been studied to understand their effects on anterior-posterior boundary positioning. Testing these perturbations' responses in the model would be important. For example, comparing the intensity distribution of PAR-6 and PAR-2 with measurements during the maintenance phase by Goehring et al., JCB 2011, or comparing the normalised intensity of PAR-3 and PKC-3 from the model with those measured by Wang et al., Nat Cell Biol 2017, during establishment and maintenance phases (in both wild-type and cdc-42 (RNAi) zygotes) could provide insightful validation. Additionally, in the presence of active CDC-42, it has been observed that PAR-6 extends further into the posterior side (Aceto et al., Dev Biol 2006). Conducting such validation tests is essential to convince readers that the model accurately represents the actual system and provides insights into pattern formation during cell polarisation.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) for the comment!

      To provide more comprehensive validations and refinements to ensure the model accurately represents biological systems, we extensively reproduced the qualitative and semi-quantitative phenomenon in three more experimental groups previously published (Section 2.5; Fig. S8) [Gotta et al., Curr. Biol., 2001; Aceto et al., Dev. Biol., 2006]. Combined with the original experiments (Section 2.5; Fig. 5; Fig. S7) [Hoege et al., Curr. Biol., 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2013], now we have reproduced five experimental groups in total from published data, comprising eight perturbed conditions and using wild-type as the reference. We have also explicitly show the comparison between model predictions and experimental observations (including the mutant behaviors reproduction as well) in detail, by describing how “cell polarization pattern characteristics in simulation” responds to various cellular/genetic perturbations (Section 2.5; Fig. 5; Fig. S7 and S8). The original and new validation tests conducted can convince readers that the model accurately represents the actual system and provides insights into pattern formation during cell polarisation.

      The diffusion coefficients for anterior and posterior molecular species were assigned according to previous experimental and theoretical research [Goehring et al., J. Cell Biol., 2011; Goehring et al., Science, 2011; Seirin-Lee et al., Cells, 2020]. The off-rates are assigned uniformly by searching viable parameter sets that can set up a network with cell polarization pattern stability. Now we have added simulations showing that the cell polarization pattern stability and response to network structure and parameter perturbation does not depend on the exact parameter values (incl., diffusion coefficients and off-rates), provided the parameter values on both sides are initially balanced as a whole (Fig. S5). Specifically, we used a Monte Carlo method to sample a wide range of various parameter values ( i.e., γ, α, k<sub>1</sub>, k<sub>2</sub>, q<sub>1</sub>, q<sub>2</sub> and [X<sub>c</sub>) for all nodes and regulations in simple 2-node network and C. elegans 5-node network, to achieve pattern stability. Under these conditions ( i.e., without any reduction in the parameter space), single-sided self-regulation, single-sided additional regulation, and unequal system parameters still cause the stable polarized pattern to collapse, consistent with our conclusions in the simplified conditions with the parameter space reduced to three independent dimensions.

      With the in silico time set as 2 sec per step, now we have added the Supplemental Text justifying how the units are removed during non-dimensionalization. This demonstrates that the derived non-dimensionalized parameter in this paper achieves realistic values on the same order of magnitude as those observed in reality, confirming the fidelity of the proposed model in representing the real system. We agreed that full experimental measurements of biological information are essential for establishing a more utilizable model and discussed it thoroughly in 3. Discussion and conclusion.

      A clear justification, with references, for each network interaction between nodes in the five-node model is needed. Some of the activatory/inhibitory signals proposed by the authors have not been demonstrated ( e.g. CDC-42 directly inhibiting CHIN-1). Table S2 provided by the authors is insufficient to justify each node-node interaction, requiring additional explanations. (See the review by Gubieda et al., Phil. Trans. R. Soc. B 2020, for a similar node network that differs from the authors' model.) Additionally, the intensity distributions of cortical PAR-3 and PKC-3 seem to vary significantly during both establishment and maintenance phases (Wang et al., Nat Cell Biol 2017), yet the authors consider the PAR-3/PAR-6/PKC-3 as a single complex. The choices in the model should be justified, as the presence or absence of clustering of these PAR proteins can be crucial during cell polarisation (Wang et al., Nat Cell Biol 2017; Dawes & Munro, Biophys J 2011).

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) for the comment!

      Now we have acknowledged the limitations of the current cell polarization model and provided, in 2. Results and 3. Discussion and conclusion, a detailed outline of potential model improvements. The limitations include, but are not limited to, issues involving “each network interaction between nodes” and the “consider the PAR-3/PAR-6/PKC-3 as a single complex”, in which the former one relies on experimental measurements of biological information. However, comprehensive experimental measurement data on every molecular species, their interactions, and each species’ intensity distribution in space and time were not fully available from prior research. Refinement is lacking for some of these interactions, potentially requiring years of additional experimentation. Moreover, for certain species at specific developmental stages, only relative (rather than absolute) intensity measurements are available. We agreed that such information is essential for establishing a more utilizable model and discussed it thoroughly in 3. Discussion and conclusion.

      In consistent with previous modeling efforts [Goehring et al., Science, 2011; Gross et al., Nat. Phys., 2019; Lim et al., Cell Rep., 2021], our model treats the PAR-3/PAR-6/PKC-3 complex as a single entity for simplification, thus neglecting the potentially distinct spatial distributions of each single molecular species. We agree that a more comprehensive model, capable of resolving the individual localization patterns of these anterior PAR proteins, would be a valuable future direction. From a theoretical perspective, we adopted assumptions from the previous literature and constructed a minimal model for a specific cell polarization phase to investigate the network's robustness, supported by five experimental groups and eight perturbed conditions in the C. elegans embryo.

      In summary, the authors successfully demonstrate the importance of compensatory actions in maintaining polarisation robustness. Their computational pipeline offers valuable insights into the dynamics of reaction-diffusion networks. However, the lack of detailed experimental validation and realistic parameter estimation limits the model's applicability to real biological systems. While the study provides a solid foundation, further work is needed to fully characterise and validate the model in natural contexts. This work has the potential to significantly impact the field by providing a new perspective on the robustness of cell polarisation networks.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) for the pertinent summary!

      To provide a more comprehensive validation against experimental data and model parameters, three more groups of the qualitative and semi-quantitative phenomenon regarding CDC-42 are reproduced based on previously published experiments (Section 2.5; Fig. S8) [Gotta et al., Curr. Biol., 2001; Aceto et al., Dev. Biol., 2006]. Combined with the original experiments (Section 2.5; Fig. 5; Fig. S7) [Hoege et al., Curr. Biol., 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2013], now we have reproduced five experimental groups in total, comprising eight perturbed conditions and using wild-type as the reference.

      With the in silico time set as 2 sec per step, now we have added the Supplemental Text justifying how the units are removed during non-dimensionalization. This demonstrates that the derived non-dimensionalized parameter in this paper achieves realistic values on the same order of magnitude as those observed in reality, confirming the fidelity of the proposed model in representing the real system. Together with the reproduction of five experimental groups (eight perturbed conditions with wild-type as the reference), the model’s applicability to real biological systems in natural contexts are are fully characterised and validated.

      The computational pipeline developed could be a valuable tool for further in silico experiments, allowing researchers to explore the dynamics of more complex networks. To maximise its utility, the model needs comprehensive validation and refinement to ensure it accurately represents biological systems. Addressing these limitations, particularly the need for more detailed experimental validation and realistic parameter choices, will enhance the model's predictive power and its applicability to understanding cell polarisation in natural systems.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) for the comment!

      To provide more comprehensive validations and refinements to ensure the model accurately represents biological systems, we extensively reproduced the qualitative and semi-quantitative phenomenon in three more experimental groups previously published (Section 2.5; Fig. S8) [Gotta et al., Curr. Biol., 2001; Aceto et al., Dev. Biol., 2006]. Combined with the original experiments (Section 2.5; Fig. 5; Fig. S7) [Hoege et al., Curr. Biol., 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2013], now we have reproduced five experimental groups in total from published data, comprising eight perturbed conditions and using wild-type as the reference. We have also explicitly show the comparison between model predictions and experimental observations (including the mutant behaviors reproduction as well) in detail, by describing how “cell polarization pattern characteristics in simulation” responds to various cellular/genetic perturbations (Section 2.5; Fig. 5; Fig. S7 and S8).

      With the in silico time set as 2 sec per step, now we have added the Supplemental Text justifying how the units are removed during non-dimensionalization. This demonstrates that the derived non-dimensionalized parameter in this paper achieves realistic values on the same order of magnitude as those observed in reality, confirming the fidelity of the proposed model in representing the real system. Together with the reproduction of five experimental groups (eight perturbed conditions with wild-type as the reference), the model's predictive power and its applicability to understanding cell polarisation in natural systems are enhanced.

      Now we have added simulations showing that the cell polarization pattern stability and response to network structure and parameter perturbation does not depend on the exact parameter values (incl., diffusion coefficients, basal off-rates and inhibition intensity), provided the parameter values on both sides are initially balanced as a whole (Fig. S5). Specifically, we used a Monte Carlo method to sample a wide range of various parameter values (i.e., γ, α, k<sub>1</sub>, k<sub>2</sub>, q<sub>1</sub>, q<sub>2</sub> and [X<sub>c</sub>) for all nodes and regulations in simple 2-node network and C. elegans 5-node network, to achieve pattern stability. Under these conditions ( i.e., without any reduction in the parameter space), single-sided self-regulation, single-sided additional regulation, and unequal system parameters still cause the stable polarized pattern to collapse, consistent with our conclusions in the simplified conditions with the parameter space reduced to three independent dimensions.

      Recommendations for the Authors:

      (1) Parameterisation and Model Validation: The authors utilise parameter values that lack realism and fail to provide units for some of them, which can lead to confusion. For instance, the length of the cell is set to 0.5 without clear justification, raising questions about the scale used. Additionally, there's a mix of dimensional and non-dimensional variables, potentially complicating interpretation. Furthermore, arbitrary choices such as equal Hill coefficients and setting inhibition intensity parameters to 1 raise concerns about model fidelity. To ensure meaningful predictions, the authors should validate their model against extensive published data, including cellular/genetic perturbations. For example, comparing intensity distributions of PAR proteins measured during maintenance phases by Goehring et al., JCB 2011, and those obtained from the model could provide valuable validation. Similarly, comparisons with data from Wang et al., Nat Cell Biol 2017, on wild-type and cdc-42 (RNAi) zygotes, as well as observations from Aceto et al., Dev Biol 2006, on PAR-6 extension in the presence of active CDC-42, would strengthen the model's validity. Such validation tests are essential for convincing readers that the model accurately represents the actual system and can provide insights into pattern formation during cell polarisation.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the helpful suggestion!

      Now we have added a new section, Parameter Nondimensionalization and Order of Magtitude Consistency, into Supplemental Text. In this section, we introduced how we adopted the parameter nondimensionalization and value assignments from previous works [Goehring et al., J. Cell Biol., 2011; Goehring et al., Science, 2011; Seirin-Lee et al., Cells, 2020]. We listed four examples (i.e., evolution time, membrane diffusion coefficient, basal off-rate, and inhibition intensity) to show the consistency in order of magtitude between numerical and realistic values.

      The assumption of “equal Hill coefficients” is to reduce the parameter space for an affordable computational cost. It is a widely-used strategy to fix Hill coefficients [Seirin-Lee et al., J. Theor. Biol., 2015; Seirin-Lee, Bull. Math. Biol., 2021] in network research, to control computational cost. Besides, setting inhibition intensity parameters to 1 is for determining a numerical scale. Now we have added simulations showing that the cell polarization pattern stability does not depend on the exact parameter values associated with activation and inhibition pathways, provided the regulations on both sides are initially balanced as a whole (Fig. S5). Specifically, we used a Monte Carlo method to sample a wide range of various parameter values (i.e., γ, α, k<sub>1</sub>, k<sub>2</sub>, q<sub>1</sub>, q<sub>2</sub> and [X<sub>c</sub>) for all nodes and regulations in simple 2-node network and C. elegans 5-node network, to achieve pattern stability. Under these conditions (i.e., without any reduction in the parameter space), single-sided self-regulation, single-sided additional regulation, and unequal system parameters still cause the stable polarized pattern to collapse, consistent with our conclusions in the simplified conditions with the parameter space reduced to three independent dimensions.

      To confirm the fidelity of the proposed model in representing the real system, we reproduced the qualitative and semi-quantitative phenomenon in three more experimental groups previously published (Section 2.5; Fig. S8) [Gotta et al., Curr. Biol., 2001; Aceto et al., Dev. Biol., 2006]. Combined with the original experiments (Section 2.5; Fig. 5; Fig. S7) [Hoege et al., Curr. Biol., 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2013], now we have reproduced five experimental groups in total (two acting on LGL-1 and three on CDC-42), comprising eight perturbed conditions and using wild-type as the reference. These results effectively demonstrate how comprehensively the network structure and parameters capture the characteristics of the C. elegans embryo. We have also acknowledged the limitations of the current cell polarization model and provided, in 2. Results and 3. Discussion and conclusion, a detailed outline of potential model improvements.

      It is worth noting that, although a strict match between numerical and realistic parameter values with consistent units is always helpful, a lot of notable pure numerical studies successfully unveil principles that help interpret [Ma et al., Cell, 2009] and synthesize real biological systems [Chau et al., Cell, 2012]. These studies suggest that numerical analysis in biological systems remains powerful, even when comprehensive experimental data from prior research are not fully available.

      (2) Parameter Changes: It is not clear how the parameters change as more complicated networks are explored, and how this affects the comparison between the simple and complete model. Clarification on this point would be beneficial.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the helpful suggestion!

      The computational pipeline in Section 2.1 is generalized for all reaction-diffusion networks, including the simple and complete ones studied in this paper. The parameter changes included two parts: 1. The mutual activation in the anterior (none for the simple 2-node network and q<sub2</sub> for the complete 5-node network); 2. The viable parameter sets (122 sets for the simple 2-node network and 602 sets for the complete 5-node network). Now we have explicitly clarified those differences:

      Those differences don’t affect the comparison between the simple and complete models. Now we have added comprehensive comparisons between the simple and complete models about 1. How they respond to alternative initial conditions consistently (Fig. S2). 2. How they respond to alternative single modifications consistently (Fig. S4 and S9), even when the parameters (i.e., γ, α, k<sub>1</sub>, k<sub>2</sub>, q<sub>1</sub>, q<sub>2</sub> and [X<sub>c</sub>) are assigned with various values concerning all nodes and regulations (Fig. S5).

      (3) Exploration of Model Parameter Space: In the two-node dual antagonistic model, the authors observe that the cell polarisation pattern is unstable for different systems (Fig. 1). However, it remains uncertain whether this instability holds true for the entire model parameter space. Have the authors thoroughly screened the full model parameter space to support their statements? It would be beneficial for the authors to provide clarification on the extent of their exploration of the model parameter space to ensure the robustness of their conclusions.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the helpful suggestion!

      The trade-off between considered parameter space and computational cost is a long-term challenge in network study as there are always numerous combinations of network nodes, edges, and parameters [Ma et al., Cell, 2009; Chau et al., Cell, 2012]. The computational pipeline in Section 2.1 generalized for all reaction-diffusion networks exerts two strategies to limit the computational cost and set up a basic network reference: 1. Dimension Reduction (Strategy 1) - Unifying the parameter values for different nodes and different edges within the same regulatory type to minimize the unidentical parameter numbers into 3; 2: Parameter Space Confinement (Strategy 2): Enumerating the dimensionless parameter set on a three-dimensional (3D) grid confined by γ∈ [0,0.05] in steps ∆γ = 0.001, k<sub>1</sub>∈[0,5] in steps ∆k<sub>1</sub> = 0.05,  and  in steps .

      In the early stage of our project, we tried to explore “the entire model parameter space” as indicated by the reviewer. We first tried to use the Monte Carlo method to find parameter solutions in an open parameter space and with all parameter values allowed to be different. However, such a process is full of randomness and is computationally expensive (taking months to search viable parameter sets but still unable to profile the continuous viable parameter space; the probability of finding a viable parameter set is no higher than 0.02%, making it very hard to profile a continuous viable parameter space). Now we clearly can see the viable parameter space is a thin curved surface where all parameters have to satisfy a critical balance (Fig. 3a, b, Fig. 5e, f). This is why we exert a typical strategy for dimension reduction in network research in both cell polarization [Marée et al., Bull. Math. Biol., 2006; Goehring et al., Science, 2011; Trong et al., New J. Phys., 2014] and other biological topics (e.g., plasmid transferring in the microbial community [Wang et al., Nat. Commun., 2020]), i.e., unifying the parameter values for different nodes and different edges within the same regulatory type.

      Additionally, the curved surface for viable parameter space can be extended to infinite as long as the parameter balance is achieved (Fig. 3a, b, Fig. 5e, f), it is impossible or unnecessary to explore “the entire model parameter space”. Setting up a confined parameter region near the original point for parameter enumeration can help profile the continuous viable parameter space, which is sufficient for presenting the central conclusion of this paper – that is - the network structure and parameter need to satisfy a balance for stable cell polarization.

      To support a comprehensive study considering all kinds of reference and perturbed networks, we have maximized the parameter domain size by exhausting all the computational research we can access, including 400-500 Intel(R) Core(TM) E5-2670v2 and Gold 6132 CPU on the server (High-Performance Computing Platform at Peking University) and 5 Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-14900HX CPU on personal computers.

      To make it certain that instability holds true when the model parameter space is extended, we add a comprehensive comparison between the simple and complete models about how their instability occurs consistently even when the parameters (i.e., γ, α, k<sub>1</sub>, k<sub>2</sub>, q<sub>1</sub>, q<sub>2</sub> and [X<sub>c</sub>) are assigned with various values concerning all nodes and regulations, searched by the Monte Carlo method (Fig. S5).

      (4) Sensitivity of Numerical Solutions to Initial Conditions: Are the numerical solutions in both models sensitive to the chosen initial condition? What results do the models provide if uniform initial distributions were utilised instead?

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the comments!

      To investigate both the simple network and the realistic network consisting of various node numbers and regulatory pathways [Goehring et al., Science, 2011; Lang et al., Development, 2017], we propose a computational pipeline for numerical exploration of the dynamics of a given reaction-diffusion network's dynamics, specifically targeting the maintenance phase of stable cell polarization after its initial establishment [Motegi et al., Nat. Cell Biol., 2011; Goehring et al., Science, 2011; Seirin-Lee et al., Cells, 2020].

      Now we have added new simulations and explanations for the sensitivity of numerical solutions to initial conditions. For both models, a uniform initial distribution leads to a homogeneous pattern while a Gaussian noise distribution leads to a multipolar pattern. In contrast, an initial polarized distribution (even with shifts in transition planes, weak polarization, or asymmetric curve shapes between the two molecular species) can maintain cell polarization reliably.

      (5) Initial Conditions and Stability Tests: In Figure 1, the authors discuss the stability of the basic two-node network (a) upon modifications in (b-d). The stability test is performed through a pipeline procedure in which they always start from a polarised pattern described by Equation (4) and observe how the pattern evolves over time. It would be beneficial to explore whether the stability test depends on this specific initial condition. For instance, what would happen if the posterior molecules have an initial distribution of 1/(1+e^(-10x)), which is not exactly symmetric with respect to the anterior molecules' distribution of 1-1/(1+e^(-20x))? Additionally, if the initial polarisation is not as strong, for example, with the anterior molecules having a distribution of 10-1/(1+e^(-20x)) and the posterior molecules having a distribution of 9+1/(1+e^(-20x)), how would this affect the results?

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the constructive advice!

      Now we have added comprehensive comparisons between the simple and complete models about how they respond to alternative initial conditions consistently (Fig. S4, Fig. S9). The successful cell polarization pattern requests an initial polarized pattern, but its following stability and response to perturbation depend very little on the specific form of the initial polarized pattern. All the conditions mentioned by the reviewer have been included.

      (6) Stability Analysis: Throughout the paper, the authors discuss the stability of the polarised pattern. The stability is checked by an exhaustive search of the parameter space, ensuring the system reaches a steady state with a polarised pattern instead of a homogeneous pattern. It would be beneficial to explore if this stability is related to a linear stability analysis of the model parameters, similar to what was conducted in Reference [18], which can determine if a homogeneous state exists and whether it is stable or unstable. Including such an analysis could provide deeper insights into the system's stability and validate its robustness.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the comments!

      We agree that the linear stability analysis can potentially offer additional insights into polarized pattern behavior. However, this approach often requests the aid of numerical solutions and is therefore not entirely independent [Goehring et al., Science, 2011]. Over the past decade, numerical simulations have consistently proven to be a reliable and sufficient approach for studying network dynamics, spanning from C. elegans cell polarization [Tostevin et al., Biophys. J, 2008; Blanchoud et al., Biophys. J, 2015; Seirin-Lee, Dev. Growth Differ., 2020] to topics in metazoon [Chau et al., Cell, 2012; Qiao et al., eLife, 2022; Sokolowski et al., arXiv, 2023]. Numerous purely numerical studies have successfully unveiled principles that help interpret [Ma et al., Cell, 2009] and synthesized real biological systems [Chau et al., Cell, 2012], independent of additional mathematical analysis. Thus, we leverage our numerical framework to address the cell polarization problems cell polarization problems in this paper.

      To confirm the reliability of stability checked by an exhaustive search of the parameter space, now we reproduce the qualitative and semi-quantitative phenomenon in three more experimental groups previously published (Section 2.5; Fig. S8) [Gotta et al., Curr. Biol., 2001; Aceto et al., Dev. Biol., 2006]. Combined with the original experiments (Section 2.5; Fig. 5; Fig. S7) [Hoege et al., Curr. Biol., 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2013], we reproduce five experimental groups in total (two acting on LGL-1 and three acting on CDC-42), comprising eight perturbed conditions and using wild-type as the reference.

      To confirm the robustness of our conclusions regarding the system's stability, now we add comprehensive comparisons between the simple and complete models about 1. How they respond to alternative initial conditions consistently (Fig. S4; Fig. S9). 2. How they respond to alternative single modifications consistently, even when the parameters (i.e., γ, α, k<sub>1</sub>, k<sub>2</sub>, q<sub>1</sub>, q<sub>2</sub> and [X<sub>c</sub> ) are assigned with various values concerning all nodes and regulations (Fig. S5).

      (7) Interface Position Determination: In Figure 4, the authors demonstrate that by using a spatially varied parameter, the position of the interface can be tuned. Particularly, the interface is almost located at the step where the parameter has a sharp jump. However, in the case of a homogeneous parameter (e.g., Figure 4(a)), the system also reaches a stable polarised pattern with the interface located in the middle (x = 0), similar to Figure 4(b), even though the homogeneous parameter does not contain any positional information of the interface. It would be helpful to clarify the difference between Figure 4(a) and Figure 4(b) in terms of the interface position determination.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the comments!

      The case of a homogeneous parameter (e.g., Fig. 4a), in which the system also reaches a stable polarised pattern with the interface located in the middle (x = 0), is just a reference adopted from Fig. 1a to show that the inhomogeneous positional information in Fig. 4b can achieve a similar stable polarised pattern.

      Now we clarify the interface position determination to Section 2.4 to improve readability. Moreover, it is marked with grey dashed line in all the patterns in Fig. 4 and Fig. 6 to highlight the importance of inhomogeneous parameters on interface localization.

      (8) Presented Comparison with Experimental Observations: The comparison with experimental observations lacks clarity. It isn't clear that the model "faithfully recapitulates" the experimental observations (lines 369-370). We recommend discussing and showing these comparisons more carefully, highlighting the expectations and similarities.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the constructive suggestion!

      Now we remove the word “faithfully” and highlight the expectations and similarities of each experimental group by describing “cell polarization pattern characteristics in simulation: …”.

      (9) Validation of Model with Experimental Data: Given the extensive number of model parameters and the uncertainty of their values, it is essential for the authors to validate their model by comparing their results with experimental data. While C. elegans polarisation has been extensively studied, the authors have yet to utilise existing data for parameter estimation and model validation. Doing so would considerably strengthen their study.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the constructive suggestion!

      To utilise existing data for parameter estimation, now we add a new section, Parameter Nondimensionalization and Order of Magtitude Consistency, into Supplemental Text. In this section, we introduced how we adopted the parameter nondimensionalization and value assignments from previous works [Goehring et al., J. Cell Biol., 2011; Goehring et al., Science, 2011; Seirin-Lee et al., Cells, 2020]. We listed four examples (i.e., evolution time, membrane diffusion coefficient, basal off-rate, and inhibition intensity) to show the consistency in order of magtitude between numerical and realistic values.

      To utilise existing data for model validation, now we reproduce the qualitative and semi-quantitative phenomenon in three more experimental groups previously published (Section 2.5; Fig. S8) [Gotta et al., Curr. Biol., 2001; Aceto et al., Dev. Biol., 2006]. Combined with the original experiments (Section 2.5; Fig. 5; Fig. S7) [Hoege et al., Curr. Biol., 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2013], we reproduce five experimental groups in total (two acting on LGL-1 and three acting on CDC-42), comprising eight perturbed conditions and using wild-type as the reference.

      Also, we acknowledge the limitations of the current cell polarization model and provided, in 3. Discussion and conclusion, a detailed outline of potential model improvements. The limitations include, but are not limited to, issues involving “extensive number of model parameters” and “uncertainty of their values”, both of which rely on experimental measurements of biological information. However, comprehensive experimental measurement data on every molecular species, their interactions, and each species’ intensity distribution in space and time were not fully available from prior research. Refinement is lacking for some of these interactions, potentially requiring years of additional experimentation. Moreover, for certain species at specific developmental stages, only relative (rather than absolute) intensity measurements are available. We agreed that such information is essential for establishing a more utilizable model and discussed it thoroughly in 3. Discussion and conclusion. From a theoretical perspective, we adopted assumptions from the previous literature and constructed a minimal model for a specific cell polarization phase to investigate the network's robustness, supported by five experimental groups and eight perturbed conditions with wild-type as a reference in the C. elegans embryo.

      (10) Enhancing Model Accuracy by Considering Cortical Flows: The authors are encouraged to include cortical flows in their cell polarisation model, as these flows are known to be pivotal in the process. Although the current model successfully predicts cell polarisation without accounting for cortical flows, research has demonstrated their significant role in polarisation formation. By incorporating cortical flows, the model would provide a more thorough and precise representation of the biological process. Furthermore, previous studies, such as those by Goehring et al. (References 17 and 18), highlight the importance of convective actin flow in initiating polarisation. It would be valuable for the authors to address the contribution of convection with actin flow to the establishment of the polarisation pattern. The polarisation of the C. elegans zygote progresses through two distinct phases: establishment and maintenance, both heavily influenced by actomyosin dynamics. Works by Munro et al. (Dev Cell 2004), Shivas & Skop (MBoC 2012), Liu et al. (Dev. Biol. 2010), and Wang et al. (Nat Cell Biol 2017) underscore the critical roles of myosin and actin in orchestrating the localisation of PAR proteins during cell polarisation. To enhance the fidelity of their model, we recommend that the authors either integrate cortical flows and consider the effects driven by myosin and actin, or provide a discussion on the repercussions of omitting these dynamics.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the comment!

      Indeed, previous research highlighted the importance of convective cortical flow in orchestrating the localisation of PAR proteins during the establishment phase of polarisation formation [Goehring et al., J. Cell Biol., 2011; Rose et al., WormBook, 2014; Beatty et al., Development, 2013]. However, during the maintenance phase, the non-muscle myosin II (NMY-2) is regulated downstream by the PAR protein network rather than serving as the primary upstream factor controlling PAR protein localization. While some theoretical studies integrated both reaction-diffusion dynamics and the effects of myosin and actin [Tostevin et al., Biophys J, 2008; Goehring et al, Science, 2011], others focused exclusively on reaction-diffusion dynamics [Dawes et al., Biophys. J., 2011; Seirin-Lee et al., Cells, 2020]. Now we clarify the distinction between the establishment and maintenance phases, emphasize our research focus on the reaction-diffusion dynamics during the maintenance phase, and provide a discussion of these omitted dynamics to foster a more comprehensive understanding in the future, as suggested.

      (11) Further Justification of Network Interactions: The authors should provide additional explanations, supported by empirical evidence, for the network interactions assumed in their model. This includes both node-node interactions and the rationale behind protein complex formations. Some of the proposed interactions lack empirical validation, as noted in studies such as Gubieda et al., Phil. Trans. R. Soc. B 2020. Additionally, discrepancies in protein intensity distributions, as observed in Wang et al., Nat Cell Biol 2017, should be addressed, particularly concerning the consideration of the PAR-3/PAR-6/PKC-3 complex as a single entity. Justifying these choices is crucial for ensuring the model's credibility and alignment with experimental findings.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the helpful advice!

      In consistency with previous modeling efforts [Goehring et al., Science, 2011; Gross et al., Nat. Phys., 2019; Lim et al., Cell Rep., 2021], our model treats the PAR-3/PAR-6/PKC-3 complex as a single entity for simplification, thus neglecting the potentially distinct spatial distributions of each single molecular species.

      Now we acknowledge the limitations of the current cell polarization model and provided, in 3. Discussion and conclusion, a detailed outline of potential model improvements. The limitations include, but are not limited to, issues involving “node-node interactions” and “discrepancies in protein intensity distributions”, both of which rely on experimental measurements of biological information. However, comprehensive experimental measurement data on every molecular species, their interactions, and each species’ intensity distribution in space and time were not fully available from prior research. Refinement is lacking for some of these interactions, potentially requiring years of additional experimentation. Moreover, for certain species at specific developmental stages, only relative (rather than absolute) intensity measurements are available. We agreed that such information is essential for establishing a more utilizable model and discussed it thoroughly in 3. Discussion and conclusion.

      To ensure the model's credibility and alignment with experimental findings, now we reproduce the qualitative and semi-quantitative phenomenon in three more experimental groups previously published (Section 2.5; Fig. S8) [Gotta et al., Curr. Biol., 2001; Aceto et al., Dev. Biol., 2006]. Combined with the original experiments (Section 2.5; Fig. 5; Fig. S7) [Hoege et al., Curr. Biol., 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2013], now we have reproduced five experimental groups in total (two acting on LGL-1 and three on CDC-42), comprising eight perturbed conditions and using wild-type as the reference.

      (12) Further Justification of Node-Node Network Interactions: The authors should provide further justification for the node-node network interactions assumed in their study. To the best of our knowledge, some of the node-node interactions proposed have not yet been empirically demonstrated. Providing additional explanations for these interactions would enhance the credibility of the model and ensure its alignment with empirical evidence.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the helpful advice!

      Now we acknowledge the limitations of the current cell polarization model and provided, in 3. Discussion and conclusion, a detailed outline of potential model improvements. The limitations include, but are not limited to, issues involving “node-node network interactions”, which rely on experimental measurements of biological information. However, comprehensive experimental measurement data on every molecular species, their interactions, and each species’ intensity distribution in space and time were not fully available from prior research. Refinement is lacking for some of these interactions, potentially requiring years of additional experimentation. Moreover, for certain species at specific developmental stages, only relative (rather than absolute) intensity measurements are available. We agreed that such information is essential for establishing a more utilizable model and discussed it thoroughly in 3. Discussion and conclusion.

      To enhance the credibility of the model and ensure its alignment with empirical evidence, we reproduced the qualitative and semi-quantitative phenomenon in three more experimental groups previously published (Section 2.5; Fig. S8) [Gotta et al., Curr. Biol., 2001; Aceto et al., Dev. Biol., 2006]. Combined with the original experiments (Section 2.5; Fig. 5; Fig. S7) [Hoege et al., Curr. Biol., 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2013], now we have reproduced five experimental groups in total (two acting on LGL-1 and three on CDC-42), comprising eight perturbed conditions and using wild-type as the reference.

      (13) Justification for Network Interactions and Protein Complexes: The authors must provide clear justifications, supported by references, for each network interaction between nodes in the five-node model. Some of the activatory/inhibitory signals proposed lack empirical validation, such as CDC-42 directly inhibiting CHIN-1. The provided Table S2 is insufficient to justify these interactions, necessitating additional explanations. Reviewing relevant literature, such as the work by Gubieda et al., Phil. Trans. R. Soc. B 2020, may offer insights into similar node networks. Furthermore, the authors should address discrepancies in protein intensity distributions, as observed in studies like Wang et al., Nat Cell Biol 2017. Specifically, the authors consider the PAR-3/PAR-6/PKC-3 complex as a single entity despite potential differences in their distributions. Justification for this choice is essential, particularly considering the importance of clustering dynamics during cell polarisation, as demonstrated by Wang et al., Nat Cell Biol 2017, and Dawes & Munro, Biophys J 2011.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the helpful advice!

      In consistent with previous modeling efforts [Goehring et al., Science, 2011; Gross et al., Nat. Phys., 2019; Lim et al., Cell Rep., 2021], our model treats the PAR-3/PAR-6/PKC-3 complex as a single entity for simplification, thus neglecting the potentially distinct spatial distributions of each single molecular species. Besides, the inhibition of CHIN-1 from CDC-42, which recruits cytoplasmic PAR-6/PKC-3 to form a complex, may act indirectly to restrict CHIN-1 localization through phosphorylation [Sailer et al., Dev. Cell, 2015; Lang et al., Development, 2017].

      Now we acknowledge the limitations of the current cell polarization model and provided, in 3. Discussion and conclusion, a detailed outline of potential model improvements. The limitations include, but are not limited to, issues involving “each network interaction between nodes in the five-node model” and “discrepancies in protein intensity distributions”, both of which rely on experimental measurements of biological information. However, comprehensive experimental measurement data on every molecular species, their interactions, and each species’ intensity distribution in space and time were not fully available from prior research. Refinement is lacking for some of these interactions, potentially requiring years of additional experimentation. Moreover, for certain species at specific developmental stages, only relative (rather than absolute) intensity measurements are available. We agreed that such information is essential for establishing a more utilizable model and discussed it thoroughly in 3. Discussion and conclusion. From a theoretical perspective, we adopted assumptions from the previous literature and constructed a minimal model for a specific cell polarization phase to investigate the network's robustness, supported by five experimental groups and eight perturbed conditions with wild-type as a reference in the C. elegans embryo.

      (14) Incorporating Cytoplasmic Dynamics into the Model: The authors assume infinite cytoplasmic diffusion and neglect the role of cytoplasmic flows in cell polarity, which may oversimplify the model. Finite cytoplasmic diffusion combined with flows could potentially compromise the stability of anterior-posterior molecular distributions, affecting the accuracy of the model's predictions. The authors claim a significant difference between cytoplasmic and membrane diffusion coefficients, but the actual disparity seems smaller based on data from Petrášek et al., Biophys. J. 2008. For example, cytosolic diffusion coefficients for NMY-2 and PAR-2 differ by less than one order of magnitude. Additionally, the strength of cytoplasmic flows, as quantified by studies such as Cheeks et al., and Curr Biol 2004, should be considered when assessing the impact of cytoplasmic dynamics on polarity stability. Incorporating finite cytoplasmic diffusion and cytoplasmic flows into the model could provide a more realistic representation of cellular dynamics and enhance the model's predictive power.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the comment!

      Cytoplasmic and membrane diffusion coefficients differ by two orders of magnitude according to previous experimental measurements on PAR-2 and PAR-6 [Goehring et al., J. Cell Biol., 2011; Lim et al., Cell Rep., 2021]. Many previous C. elegans cell polarization models have incorporated mass-conservation model combined with finite cytoplasmic diffusion, but this model description can lead to reverse spatial concentration distribution between the cell membrane and cytosol [Fig. 3 of Seirin-Lee et al., J. Theor. Biol., 2016; Fig. 2ab of Seirin-Lee et al., J. Math. Biol., 2020], disobeying experimental observation [Fig. 4A of Sailer et al., Dev. Cell, 2015; Fig. 1A of Lim et al., Cell Rep., 2021]. This implies that the infinite cytoplasmic diffusion, without precise experiment-based parameter assignment or accounting for other hidden biological processes (e.g., protein production and degradation), may be inappropriate in modeling the real spatial concentration distributions distinguished between the cell membrane and cytosol. To address this issue, some theoretical research incorporated protein production and degradation into their model, to acquire the consistent spatial concentration distribution between the cell membrane and cytosol [Tostevin et al., Biophys. J., 2008]. More definitive experimental data on the spatiotemporal changes in protein diffusion, production, and degradation are essential for providing a more realistic representation of cellular dynamics and enhancing the model's predictive power.

      Cytoplasmic flows indeed play an unneglectable role in cell polarity during the establishment phase [Kravtsova et al., Bull. Math. Biol., 2014], which creates a spatial gradient of actomyosin contractility and directs PAR-3/PKC-3/PAR-6 to the anterior membrane by cortical flow [Rose et al., WormBook, 2014; Lang et al., Development, 2017]. However, during the maintenance phase, the non-muscle myosin II (NMY-2) is regulated downstream by the PAR protein network rather than serving as the primary upstream factor controlling PAR protein localization [Goehring et al., J. Cell Biol., 2011; Rose et al., WormBook, 2014; Geβele et al., Nat. Commun., 2020]. While some theoretical studies integrated both reaction-diffusion dynamics and the effects of myosin and actin [Tostevin, 2008; Goehring, Science, 2011], others focused exclusively on reaction-diffusion dynamics [Dawes et al., Biophys. J., 2011; Seirin-Lee et al., Cells, 2020]. We now emphasize our research focus on the reaction-diffusion dynamics during the maintenance phase, so the dynamics between NMY-2 and PAR-2 are not included. We have also provided a discussion of the simplified cytoplasmic diffusion and omitted cytoplasmic flows to foster a more comprehensive understanding in the future.

      (15) Explanation of Lethality References: On page 13, the authors mention lethality without adequately explaining why they are drawing connections with lethality experimental data.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the comment!

      It is well-known that cell polarity loss in C. elegans zygote will lead to symmetric cell division, which brings out the more symmetric allocation of molecular-to-cellular contents in daughter cells; this will result in abnormal cell size, cell cycle length, and cell fate in daughter cells, followed by embryo lethality [Beatty et al., Development, 2010; Beatty et al., Development, 2013; Rodriguez et al., Dev. Cell, 2017; Jankele et al., eLife, 2021]. Now we explain why we are drawing connections with lethality experimental data in Section 2.5.

      (16) Improved Abstract: "...However, polarity can be restored through a combination of two modifications that have opposing effects..." This sentence could be revised for better clarity. For example, the authors could consider rephrasing it as follows: "...However, polarity restoration can be achieved by combining two modifications with opposing effects...".

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for helpful advice!

      Now we revise the abstract as follows:

      “Abstract – However, polarity restoration can be achieved by combining two modifications with opposing effects.”

      (17) Conservation of Mass in Network Models: Is conservation of mass satisfied in their network models?

      We sincerely thank the editor (s) and referee(s) for the comment!

      While previous experiments provide evidence for near-constant protein mass during the establishment phase [Goehring et al., Science, 2011], whether this is consistent until the end of maintenance is unclear.

      Many previous C. elegans cell polarization models have assumed mass conservation on the cell membrane and in the cell cytosol, this model description can lead to reverse spatial concentration distribution between the cell membrane and cytosol [Fig. 3 of Seirin-Lee et al., J. Theor. Biol., 2016; Fig. 2ab of Seirin-Lee et al., J. Math. Biol., 2020], disobeying experimental observation [Fig. 4A of Sailer et al., Dev. Cell, 2015; Fig. 1A of Lim et al., Cell Rep., 2021]. This implies that mass conservation may be inappropriate in modeling the real spatial concentration distributions distinguished between the cell membrane and cytosol. To address this issue, some theoretical research incorporated protein production and degradation into their model, instead of assuming mass conservation [Tostevin et al., Biophys. J., 2008]. More definitive experimental data on the spatiotemporal changes in protein mass are essential for constructing a more accurate model.

      Given the absence of a universally accepted model in agreement with experimental observation, we adopted the assumption that the concentration of molecules in the cytosol (not the total mass on the cell membrane and in the cell cytosol) is spatially inhomogeneous and temporally constant, which was also used before [Kravtsova et al., Bull. Math. Biol., 2014]. In the context of this well-mixed constant cytoplasmic concentration, our model successfully reproduced the cell polarization phenotype in wild-type and eight perturbed conditions (Section 2.5; Fig. S7; Fig. S8), supporting the validity of this simplified, yet effective, model. Now we have provided a discussion of protein mass assumption to foster a more comprehensive understanding in the future.

      (18) Comparison of Network Structures: In Figure 1c, the authors demonstrate that the symmetric two-node network is susceptible to single-sided additional regulation. They considered four subtypes of modifications, depending on whether [L] is in the anterior or posterior and whether [A] and [L] are mutually activating or inhibiting. What is the difference between the structure where [L] is in the anterior and in the posterior? Upon comparing the time evolution of the left panel ([L] is sided with

      ) and the right panel ([L] is sided with [A]), the difference is so tiny that they are almost indistinguishable. It might be beneficial for the authors to provide a clearer explanation of the differences between these network structures to aid in understanding their implications.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the constructive suggestion!

      The difference between the structures where [L] is in the anterior and posterior is the initial spatial concentration distribution of [L], which is polarized to have a higher concentration in the anterior and posterior respectively. The time evolution of the left panel ([L] is sided with [P]) and the right panel [L] is sided with [P]) is almost indistinguishable because the perturbation from [L] is slight (less than over one order of magnitude) compared to the predominant [A]~[P] interaction ( for [A]~[P] mutual inhibition while for [A]~[L] mutual inhibition and for [A]~[L] mutual activation), highlighting the response of cell polarization pattern. To aid the readers in understanding their implications, we have added the [L] and plotted the spatial concentration distribution of all three molecular species at t=0,100, 200, 300, 400 and 500 in Fig. S3, where the difference between the [L] ones in the left and right panels are distinguishably shown.

      (19) Figure Reference: In line 308, Fig. 4a is referenced when explaining the loss of pattern stability by modifying an individual parameter, but this is not shown in that panel. Please update the panel or adjust the reference in the main text.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for pointing out this problem!

      Fig. 4 focuses on the regulatable shift of the zero-velocity interface by modifying a pair of individual parameters, not on the loss (or recovery) of pattern stability, which has been analyzed as a focus in Fig. 1, Fig. 2, and Fig. 3. Fig. 4a is actually from the same simulation as the one in Fig. 1a, which has spatially uniform parameters used as a reference in Fig. 4. The individual parameter modification in other subfigures of Fig. 4 shows how the zero-velocity interface is shifted in a regulatable manner always in the context of pattern stability. Now we update the panel, adjust the reference, add one more paragraph, and improve the wording to clarify how the analyses in Fig. 4 are carried out on top of the pattern stability already studied.

      (20) Viable Parameter Sets: In line 355, the number of viable parameter sets (602) is not very informative by itself. We suggest reporting the fraction or percentage of sets tested that resulted in viable results instead. This applies similarly to lines 411 and 468.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the constructive comment!

      Now the fraction/percentage of parameter sets tested that resulted in viable results are added everywhere the number appears.

      (21) Perturbation Experiments: In lines 358-359, "the perturbation experiments" implies that those considered are the only possible ones. Please rephrase to clarify.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the helpful advice!

      Now we rephrase three paragraphs to clarify why the perturbation experiments involved with [L] and [C] are considered instead of other possible ones.

      (22) Figure 2S: This figure is unclear. The caption states that panel (a) shows the "final concentration distribution," but only a line is shown. If "distribution" refers to spatial distribution, please clarify which parameters are shown.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for pointing out this problem!

      Now we clarify the “spatial concentration distribution” and which parameters are shown in the figure caption.

      (23) Figure 5 and 6 Captions: The captions for Figures 5 and 6 could benefit from clarification for better understanding.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the constructive suggestion!

      Now we clarify the details in the captions of Fig. 5 and Fig. 6 for better understanding.

      (24) Figure 5 Legend: The legend on the bottom right corner of Figure 5 is unclear. Please specify to which panel it refers.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the constructive suggestion!

      Now we clarify to which the legend on the bottom right corner of Fig. 5 refers.

      (25) L and A~C Interactions: In paragraphs 405-418, please explain why the L and A~C interactions are removed for the comparison instead of others.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the constructive suggestion!

      Now we add a separate paragraph and a supplemental figure to explain why the L and A~C interactions are removed for the comparison instead of others.

      (26) Network Structures in Figure S3: From the "34 possible network structures" considered in Figure S3 (lines 440-441), why are the "null cases" (L disconnected from the network) relevant? Shouldn't only 32 networks be considered?

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for pointing out this problem!

      Now the two “null cases” are removed:

      (27) Figure S3 Caption: The caption must state that the position of the nodes (left or right) implies the polarisation pattern. Additionally, with the current size of the figure, the dashed lines are extremely hard to differentiate from the continuous lines.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the constructive suggestion!

      Now we state that the position of the nodes (left or right) implies the polarization pattern. Additionally, we have modified the figure size and dashed lines so that the dash lines are adequately distinguishable from the continuous lines.

      (28) Equation #7: It is confusing to use P as the number of independent simulations when P is also one of the variables/species in the network. Please consider using different notation.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and refer(s) for the hhelpful advice!

      Now we replace the P in current Equation #8 with Q and the P in current Equation #10 with W.

      (29) Use of "Detailed Balance": The authors used the term "detailed balance" to describe the intricate balance between the two groups of proteins when forming a polarised pattern. However, "detailed balance" is a term with a specific meaning in thermodynamics. Breaking detailed balance is a feature of nonequilibrium systems, and the polarisation phenomenon is evidently a nonequilibrium process. Using the term "detailed balance" may cause confusion, especially for readers with a physics background. It might be advisable to reconsider the terminology to avoid potential confusion and ensure clarity for readers.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the constructive suggestion!

      To avoid potential confusion and ensure clarity for readers, now we replace “detailed balance” with “balance”, “required balance”, or “interplay” regarding different contexts.

      (30) Terminology: The word "molecule" is used where "molecular species" would be more appropriate, e.g., lines 456 and 551. Please revise these instances.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the constructive suggestion!

      Now we replace all the “molecule” by “molecular species” as suggested.

      (31) Section 2.5: This section is confusing. It isn't clear where the "method outlined" (line 464) is nor what "span an iso-velocity surface at vanishing speed" means in line 470. The sentence in lines 486-488, "An expression similar to Eq. 8 enables quantitative prediction...", is too vague. Please clarify these points and specify what the "similar expression" is and where it can be found.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for the constructive suggestion!

      Now we clarify these points and specify the terms as suggested.

      (32) Software Mention: The software is only mentioned in the abstract and conclusions. It should also be mentioned where the computational pipeline is described, and the instructions available in the supplementary information need to be referenced in the main text.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for pointing out this problem!

      Now we mention the software where the computational pipeline is described and reference the instructions available in the Supplemental Text.

      (33) Supplementary Material References: Several parts of the supplementary material are never referenced in the main text, including Figure S1, Movies S3-S4, and the Instructions for PolarSim. Please reference these in the main text to clarify their relevance and how they fit with the manuscript's narrative.

      We sincerely thank the editor(s) and referee(s) for pointing out this problem!

      Now we add all the missing references for supplementary materials to the main text properly.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      eLife assessment

      In this study, Ger and colleagues present a valuable new technique that uses recurrent neural networks to distinguish between model misspecification and behavioral stochasticity when interpreting cognitivebehavioral model fits. Evidence for the usefulness of this technique, which is currently based primarily on a relatively simple toy problem, is considered incomplete but could be improved via comparisons to existing approaches and/or applications to other problems. This technique addresses a long-standing problem that is likely to be of interest to researchers pushing the limits of cognitive computational modeling.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Ger and colleagues address an issue that often impedes computational modeling: the inherent ambiguity between stochasticity in behavior and structural mismatch between the assumed and true model. They propose a solution to use RNNs to estimate the ceiling on explainable variation within a behavioral dataset. With this information in hand, it is possible to determine the extent to which "worse fits" result from behavioral stochasticity versus failures of the cognitive model to capture nuances in behavior (model misspecification). The authors demonstrate the efficacy of the approach in a synthetic toy problem and then use the method to show that poorer model fits to 2-step data in participants with low IQ are actually due to an increase in inherent stochasticity, rather than systemic mismatch between model and behavior.

      Strengths:

      Overall I found the ideas conveyed in the paper interesting and the paper to be extremely clear and wellwritten. The method itself is clever and intuitive and I believe it could be useful in certain circumstances, particularly ones where the sources of structure in behavioral data are unknown. In general, the support for the method is clear and compelling. The flexibility of the method also means that it can be applied to different types of behavioral data - without any hypotheses about the exact behavioral features that might be present in a given task.

      Thank you for taking the time to review our work and for the positive remarks regarding the manuscript. Below is a point-by-point response to the concerns raised.

      Weaknesses:

      That said, I have some concerns with the manuscript in its current form, largely related to the applicability of the proposed methods for problems of importance in computational cognitive neuroscience. This concern stems from the fact that the toy problem explored in the manuscript is somewhat simple, and the theoretical problem addressed in it could have been identified through other means (for example through the use of posterior predictive checking for model validation), and the actual behavioral data analyzed were interpreted as a null result (failure to reject that the behavioral stochasticity hypothesis), rather than actual identification of model-misspecification. I expand on these primary concerns and raise several smaller points below.

      A primary question I have about this work is whether the method described would actually provide any advantage for real cognitive modeling problems beyond what is typically done to minimize the chance of model misspecification (in particular, post-predictive checking). The toy problem examined in the manuscript is pretty extreme (two of the three synthetic agents are very far from what a human would do on the task, and the models deviate from one another to a degree that detecting the difference should not be difficult for any method). The issue posed in the toy data would easily be identified by following good modeling practices, which include using posterior predictive checking over summary measures to identify model insufficiencies, which in turn would call for the need for a broader set of models (See Wilson & Collins 2019). Thus, I am left wondering whether this method could actually identify model misspecification in real world data, particularly in situations where standard posterior predictive checking would fall short. The conclusions from the main empirical data set rest largely on a null result, and the utility of a method for detecting model misspecification seems like it should depend on its ability to detect its presence, not just its absence, in real data.

      Beyond the question of its advantage above and beyond data- and hypothesis-informed methods for identifying model misspecification, I am also concerned that if the method does identify a modelinsufficiency, then you still would need to use these other methods in order to understand what aspect of behavior deviated from model predictions in order to design a better model. In general, it seems that the authors should be clear that this is a tool that might be helpful in some situations, but that it will need to be used in combination with other well-described modeling techniques (posterior predictive checking for model validation and guiding cognitive model extensions to capture unexplained features of the data). A general stylistic concern I have with this manuscript is that it presents and characterizes a new tool to help with cognitive computational modeling, but it does not really adhere to best modeling practices (see Collins & Wilson, eLife), which involve looking at data to identify core behavioral features and simulating data from best-fitting models to confirm that these features are reproduced. One could take away from this paper that you would be better off fitting a neural network to your behavioral data rather than carefully comparing the predictions of your cognitive model to your actual data, but I think that would be a highly misleading takeaway since summary measures of behavior would just as easily have diagnosed the model misspecification in the toy problem, and have the added advantage that they provide information about which cognitive processes are missing in such cases.

      As a more minor point, it is also worth noting that this method could not distinguish behavioral stochasticity from the deterministic structure that is not repeated across training/test sets (for example, because a specific sequence is present in the training set but not the test set). This should be included in the discussion of method limitations. It was also not entirely clear to me whether the method could be applied to real behavioral data without extensive pretraining (on >500 participants) which would certainly limit its applicability for standard cases.

      The authors focus on model misspecification, but in reality, all of our models are misspecified to some degree since the true process-generating behavior almost certainly deviates from our simple models (ie. as George Box is frequently quoted, "all models are wrong, but some of them are useful"). It would be useful to have some more nuanced discussion of situations in which misspecification is and is not problematic.

      We thank the reviewer for these comments and have made changes to the manuscript to better describe these limitations. We agree with the reviewer and accept that fitting a neural network is by no means a substitute for careful and dedicated cognitive modeling. Cognitive modeling is aimed at describing the latent processes that are assumed to generate the observed data, and we agree that careful description of the data-generating mechanisms, including posterior predictive checks, is always required. However, even a well-defined cognitive model might still have little predictive accuracy, and it is difficult to know how much resources should be put into trying to test and develop new cognitive models to describe the data. We argue that RNN can lead to some insights regarding this question, and highlight the following limitations that were mentioned by the review: 

      First, we accept that it is important to provide positive evidence for the existence of model misspecification. In that sense, a result where the network shows dramatic improvement over the best-fitting theoretical model is easier to interpret compared to when the network shows no (or very little) improvement in predictive accuracy. This is because there is always an option that the network, for some reason, was not flexible enough to learn the data-generating model, or because the data-generating mechanism has changed from training to test. We have now added this more clearly in the limitation section. However, when it comes to our empirical results, we would like to emphasize that the network did in fact improve the predictive accuracy for all participants. The result shows support in favor of a "null" hypothesis in the sense that we seem to find evidence that the change in predictive accuracy between the theoretical model and RNN is not systematic across levels of IQ. This allows us to quantify evidence (use Bayesian statistics) for no systematic model misspecification as a function of IQ. While it is always possible that a different model might systematically improve the predictive accuracy of low vs high IQ individuals' data, this seems less likely given the flexibility of the current results.  

      Second, we agree that our current study only applies to the RL models that we tested. In the context of RL, we have used a well-established and frequently applied paradigm and models. We emphasize in the discussion that simulations are required to further validate other uses for this method with other paradigms.  

      Third, we also accept that posterior predictive checks should always be capitalized when possible, which is now emphasized in the discussion. However, we note that these are not always easy to interpret in a meaningful way and may not always provide details regarding model insufficiencies as described by the reviewer. It is very hard to determine what should be considered as a good prediction and since the generative model is always unknown, sometimes very low predictive accuracy can still be at the peak of possible model performance. This is because the data might be generated from a very noisy process, capping the possible predictive accuracy at a very low point. However, when strictly using theoretical modeling, it is very hard to determine what predictive accuracy to expect. Also, predictive checks are not always easy to interpret visually or otherwise. For example, in two-armed bandit tasks where there are only two actions, the prediction of choices is easier to understand in our opinion when described using a confusion matrix that summarizes the model's ability to predict the empirical behavior (which becomes similar to the predictive estimation we describe in eq 22).  

      Finally, this approach indeed requires a large dataset, with at least three sessions for each participant (training, validation, and test). Further studies might shed more light on the use of optimal epochs as a proxy for noise/complexity that can be used with less data (i.e., training and validation, without a test set).

      Please see our changes at the end of this document.  

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      SUMMARY:

      In this manuscript, Ger and colleagues propose two complementary analytical methods aimed at quantifying the model misspecification and irreducible stochasticity in human choice behavior. The first method involves fitting recurrent neural networks (RNNs) and theoretical models to human choices and interpreting the better performance of RNNs as providing evidence of the misspecifications of theoretical models. The second method involves estimating the number of training iterations for which the fitted RNN achieves the best prediction of human choice behavior in a separate, validation data set, following an approach known as "early stopping". This number is then interpreted as a proxy for the amount of explainable variability in behavior, such that fewer iterations (earlier stopping) correspond to a higher amount of irreducible stochasticity in the data. The authors validate the two methods using simulations of choice behavior in a two-stage task, where the simulated behavior is generated by different known models. Finally, the authors use their approach in a real data set of human choices in the two-stage task, concluding that low-IQ subjects exhibit greater levels of stochasticity than high-IQ subjects.

      STRENGTHS:

      The manuscript explores an extremely important topic to scientists interested in characterizing human decision-making. While it is generally acknowledged that any computational model of behavior will be limited in its ability to describe a particular data set, one should hope to understand whether these limitations arise due to model misspecification or due to irreducible stochasticity in the data. Evidence for the former suggests that better models ought to exist; evidence for the latter suggests they might not.

      To address this important topic, the authors elaborate carefully on the rationale of their proposed approach. They describe a variety of simulations - for which the ground truth models and the amount of behavioral stochasticity are known - to validate their approaches. This enables the reader to understand the benefits (and limitations) of these approaches when applied to the two-stage task, a task paradigm commonly used in the field. Through a set of convincing analyses, the authors demonstrate that their approach is capable of identifying situations where an alternative, untested computational model can outperform the set of tested models, before applying these techniques to a realistic data set.

      Thank you for reviewing our work and for the positive tone. Please find below a point-by-point response to the concerns you have raised.

      WEAKNESSES:

      The most significant weakness is that the paper rests on the implicit assumption that the fitted RNNs explain as much variance as possible, an assumption that is likely incorrect and which can result in incorrect conclusions. While in low-dimensional tasks RNNs can predict behavior as well as the data-generating models, this is not *always* the case, and the paper itself illustrates (in Figure 3) several cases where the fitted RNNs fall short of the ground-truth model. In such cases, we cannot conclude that a subject exhibiting a relatively poor RNN fit necessarily has a relatively high degree of behavioral stochasticity. Instead, it is at least conceivable that this subject's behavior is generated precisely (i.e., with low noise) by an alternative model that is poorly fit by an RNN - e.g., a model with long-term sequential dependencies, which RNNs are known to have difficulties in capturing.

      These situations could lead to incorrect conclusions for both of the proposed methods. First, the model misspecification analysis might show equal predictive performance for a particular theoretical model and for the RNN. While a scientist might be inclined to conclude that the theoretical model explains the maximum amount of explainable variance and therefore that no better model should exist, the scenario in the previous paragraph suggests that a superior model might nonetheless exist. Second, in the earlystopping analysis, a particular subject may achieve optimal validation performance with fewer epochs than another, leading the scientist to conclude that this subject exhibits higher behavioral noise. However, as before, this could again result from the fact that this subject's behavior is produced with little noise by a different model. Admittedly, the existence of such scenarios *in principle* does not mean that such scenarios are common, and the conclusions drawn in the paper are likely appropriate for the particular examples analyzed. However, it is much less obvious that the RNNs will provide optimal fits in other types of tasks, particularly those with more complex rules and long-term sequential dependencies, and in such scenarios, an ill-advised scientist might end up drawing incorrect conclusions from the application of the proposed approaches.

      Yes, we understand and agree. A negative result where RNN is unable to overcome the best fitting theoretical model would always leave room for doubt regarding the fact that a different approach might yield better results. In contrast, a dramatic improvement in predictive accuracy for RNN is easier to interpret since it implies that the theoretical model can be improved. We have made an effort to make this issue clear and more articulated in the discussion. We specifically and directly mention in the discussion that “Equating RNN performance with the generative model should be avoided”.   

      However, we would like to note that our empirical results provided a somewhat more nuanced scenario where we found that the RNN generally improved the predictive accuracy of most participants. Importantly, this improvement was found to be equal across participants with no systematic benefits for low vs high IQ participants. We understand that there is always the possibility that another model would show a systematic benefit for low vs. high IQ participants, however, we suggest that this is less likely given the current evidence. We have made an effort to clearly note these issues in the discussion.  

      In addition to this general limitation, the paper also makes a few additional claims that are not fully supported by the provided evidence. For example, Figure 4 highlights the relationship between the optimal epochs and agent noise. Yet, it is nonetheless possible that the optimal epoch is influenced by model parameters other than inverse temperature (e.g., learning rate). This could again lead to invalid conclusions, such as concluding that low-IQ is associated with optimal epoch when an alternative account might be that low-IQ is associated with low learning rate, which in turn is associated with optimal epoch. Yet additional factors such as the deep double-descent (Nakkiran et al., ICLR 2020) can also influence the optimal epoch value as computed by the authors.

      An additional issue is that Figure 4 reports an association between optimal epoch and noise, but noise is normalized by the true minimal/maximal inverse-temperature of hybrid agents (Eq. 23). It is thus possible that the relationship does not hold for more extreme values of inverse-temperature such as beta=0 (extremely noisy behavior) or beta=inf (deterministic behavior), two important special cases that should be incorporated in the current study. Finally, even taking the association in Figure 4 at face value, there are potential issues with inferring noise from the optimal epoch when their correlation is only r~=0.7. As shown in the figures, upon finding a very low optimal epoch for a particular subject, one might be compelled to infer high amounts of noise, even though several agents may exhibit a low optimal epoch despite having very little noise.

      Thank you for these comments. Indeed, there is much we do not yet fully understand about the factors that influence optimal epochs. Currently, it is clear to us that the number of optimal epochs is influenced by a variety of factors, including network size, the data size, and other cognitive parameters, such as the learning rate. We hope that our work serves as a proof-of-concept, suggesting that, in certain scenarios, the number of epochs can be utilized as an empirical estimate. Moreover, we maintain that, at least within the context of the current paradigm, the number of optimal epochs is primarily sensitive to the amount of true underlying noise, assuming the number of trials and network size are constant. We are therefore hopeful that this proofof-concept will encourage research that will further examine the factors that influence the optimal epochs in different behavioral paradigms.  

      To address the reviewer's justified concerns, we have made several amendments to the manuscript. First, we added an additional version of Figure 4 in the Supplementary Information material, where the noise parameter values are not scaled. We hope this adjustment clarifies that the parameters were tested across a broad spectrum of values (e.g., 0 to 10 for the hybrid model), spanning the two extremes of complete randomness and high determinism. Second, we included a linear regression analysis showing the association of all model parameters (including noise) with the optimal number of epochs. As anticipated by the reviewer, the learning rate was also found to be associated with the number of optimal epochs. Nonetheless, the noise parameter appears to maintain the most substantial association with the number of optimal epochs. We have also added a specific mentioning of these associations in the discussion, to inform readers that the association between the number of optimal epochs and model parameters should be examined using simulation for other paradigms/models. Lastly, we acknowledge in the discussion that the findings regarding the association between the number of optimal epochs and noise warrant further investigation, considering other factors that might influence the determination of the optimal epoch point and the fact that the correlation with noise is strong, but not perfect (in the range of 0.7).

      The discussion now includes the following:

      “Several limitations should be considered in our proposed approach. First, fitting a data-driven neural network is evidently not enough to produce a comprehensive theoretical description of the data generation mechanisms. Currently, best practices for cognitive modeling \citep{wilson2019ten} require identifying under what conditions the model struggles to predict the data (e.g., using posterior predictive checks), and describing a different theoretical model that could account for these disadvantages in prediction. However, identifying conditions where the model shortcomings in predictive accuracy are due to model misspecifications rather than noisier behavior is a challenging task. We propose leveraging data-driven RNNs as a supplementary tool, particularly when they significantly outperform existing theoretical models, followed by refined theoretical modeling to provide insights into what processes were mis-specified in the initial modeling effort.

      Second, although we observed a robust association between the optimal number of epochs and true noise across varying network sizes and dataset sizes (see Fig.~\ref{figS2}), additional factors such as network architecture and other model parameters (e.g., learning rate, see .~\ref{figS7}) might influence this estimation. Further research is required to allow us to better understand how and why different factors change the number of optimal epochs for a given dataset before it can be applied with confidence to empirical investigations. 

      Third, the empirical dataset used in our study consisted of data collected from human participants at a single time point, serving as the training set for our RNN. The test set data, collected with a time interval of approximately $\sim6$ and $\sim18$ months, introduced the possibility of changes in participants' decision-making strategies over time. In our analysis, we neglected any possible changes in participants' decision-making strategies during that time, changes that may lead to poorer generalization performance of our approach. Thus, further studies are needed to eliminate such possible explanations.

      Fourth, our simulations, albeit illustrative, were confined to known models, necessitating in-silico validation before extrapolating the efficacy of our approach to other model classes and tasks. Our aim was to showcase the potential benefits of using a data-driven approach, particularly when faced with unknown models. However, whether RNNs will provide optimal fits for tasks with more complex rules and long-term sequential dependencies remains uncertain.

      Finally, while positive outcomes where RNNs surpass theoretical models can prompt insightful model refinement, caution is warranted in directly equating RNN performance with that of the generative model, as seen in our simulations (e.g., Figure 3). We highlight that our empirical findings depict a more complex scenario, wherein the RNN enhanced the predictive accuracy for all participants uniformly. Notably, we also provide evidence supporting a null effect among individuals, with no consistent difference in RNN improvement over the theoretical model based on IQ. Although it remains conceivable that a different datadriven model could systematically heighten the predictive accuracy for individuals with lower IQs in this task, such a possibility seems less probable in light of the current findings.”

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor comments:

      Is the t that gets fed as input to RNN just timestep?

      t = last transition type (rare/common). not timestep

      Line 378: what does "optimal epochs" mean here?

      The number of optimal training epochs that minimize both underfitting and overfitting (define in the line ~300)

      Line 443: I don't think "identical" is the right word here - surely the authors just mean that there is not an obvious systematic difference in the distributions.

      Fixed

      I was expecting to see ~500 points in Figure 7a, but there seem to be only 50... why weren't all datasets with at least 2 sessions used for this analysis?

      We used the ~500 subjects (only 2 datasets) to pre-train the RNN, and then fine-tuned the pre-trained RNN on the other 54 subjects that have 3 datasets. The correlation of IQ and optimal epoch also hold for the 500 subjects as shown below. 

      Author response image 1.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Figure 3b: despite spending a long time trying to understand the meaning of each cell of the confusion matrix, I'm still unsure what they represent. Would be great if you could spell out the meaning of each cell individually, at least for the first matrix in the paper.

      We added a clarification to the Figure caption. 

      Figure 5: Why didn't the authors show this exact scenario using simulated data? It would be much easier to understand the predictions of this figure if they had been demonstrated in simulated data, such as individuals with different amounts of behavioral noise or different levels of model misspecifications.

      In Figure 5 the x-axis represents IQ. Replacing the x-axis with true noise would make what we present now as Figure 4. We have made an effort to emphasize the meaning of the axes in the caption. 

      Line 195 ("...in the action selection. Where"). Typo? No period is needed before "where".

      Fixed

      Line 213 ("K dominated-hand model"). I was intrigued by this model, but wasn't sure whether it has been used previously in the literature, or whether this is the first time it has been proposed.

      This is the first time that we know of that this model is used.  

      Line 345 ("This suggests that RNN is flexible enough to approximate a wide range of different behavioral models"): Worth explaining why (i.e., because the GRUs are able to capture dependencies across longer delays than a k-order Logistic Regression model).

      Line 356 ("We were interested to test"): Suggestion: "We were interested in testing".

      Fixed

      Line 389 ("However, as long as the number of observations and the size of the network is the same between two datasets, the number of optimal epochs can be used to estimate whether the dataset of one participant is noisier compared with a second dataset."): This is an important claim that should ideally be demonstrated directly. The paper only illustrates this effect through a correlation and a scatter plot, where higher noise tends to predict a lower optimal epoch. However, is the claim here that, in some circumstances, optimal epoch can be used to *deterministically* estimate noise? If so, this would be a strong result and should ideally be included in the paper.

      We have now omitted this sentenced and toned down our claims, suggesting that while we did find a strong association between noise and optimal epochs, future research is required to established to what extent this could be differentiated from other factors (i.e., network size, amount of observations).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Preliminary note from the Reviewing Editor:

      The evaluations of the two Reviewers are provided for your information. As you can see, their opinions are very different.

      Reviewer #1 is very harsh in his/her evaluation. Clearly, we don't expect you to be able to affect one type of actin network without affecting the other, but rather to change the balance between the two. However, he/she also raises some valid points, in particular that more rationale should be added for the perturbations (also mentioned by Reviewer #2). Both Reviewers have also excellent suggestions for improving the presentation of the data.

      We sincerely appreciate your and the reviewers’ suggestions. The comments are amended accordingly.

      On another point, I was surprised when reading your manuscript that a molecular description of chirality change in cells is presented as a completely new one. Alexander Bershadsky's group has identified several factors (including alpha-actinin) as important regulators of the direction of chirality. The articles are cited, but these important results are not specifically mentioned. Highlighting them would not call into question the importance of your work, but might even provide additional arguments for your model.

      We appreciate the editor’s comment. Alexander Bershadsky's group has done marvelous work in cell chirality. They introduced the stair-stepping and screw theory, which suggested how radial fiber polymerization generates ACW force and drives the actin cytoskeleton into the ACW pattern. Moreover, they have identified chiral regulators like alpha-actinin 1, mDia1, capZB, and profilin 1, which can reverse or neutralize the chiral expression.

      It is worth noting that Bershadsky's group primarily focuses on radial fibers. In our manuscript, instead, we primarily focused on the contractile unit in the transverse arcs and CW chirality in our investigation. Our manuscript incorporates our findings in the transverse arcs and the radial fibers theory by Bershadsky's group into the chirality balance hypothesis, providing a more comprehensive understanding of the chirality expression.

      We have included relevant articles from Alexander Bershadsky's group, we agree that highlighting these important results of chiral regulators would further strengthen our manuscript. The manuscript was revised as follows:

      “ACW chirality can be explained by the right-handed axial spinning of radial fibers during polymerization, i.e. ‘stair-stepping' mode proposed by Tee et al. (Tee et al. 2015) (Figure 8A; Video 4). As actin filament is formed in a right-handed double helix, it possesses an intrinsic chiral nature. During the polymerization of radial fiber, the barbed end capped by formin at focal adhesion was found to recruit new actin monomers to the filament. The tethering by formin during the recruitment of actin monomers contributes to the right-handed tilting of radial fibers, leading to ACW rotation. Supporting this model, Jalal et al. (Jalal et al. 2019) showed that the silencing of mDia1, capZB, and profilin 1 would abolish the ACW chiral expression or reverse the chirality into CW direction. Specifically, the silencing of mDia1, capZB or profilin-1 would attenuate the recruitment of actin monomer into the radial fiber, with mDia1 acting as the nucleator of actin filament (Tsuji et al. 2002), CapZB promoting actin polymerization as capping protein (Mukherjee et al. 2016), and profilin-1 facilitating ATP-bound G-actin to the barbed ends(Haarer and Brown 1990; Witke 2004). The silencing resulted in a decrease in the elongation velocity of radial fiber, driving the cell into neutral or CW chirality. These results support that our findings that reduction of radial fiber elongation can invert the balance of chirality expression, changing the ACW-expressing cell into a neutral or CW-expressing cell.”

      By incorporating their findings into our revision and discussion, we provide additional support for our radial fiber-transverse arc balance model for chirality expression. The revision is made on pages 8 to 9, 13, lines 253 to 256, 284, 312 to 313, 443, 449 to 459.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Kwong et al. present evidence that two actin-filament based cytoskeletal structures regulate the clockwise and anticlockwise rotation of the cytoplasm. These claims are based on experiments using cells plated on micropatterned substrates (circles). Previous reports have shown that the actomyosin network that forms on the dorsal surface of a cell plated on a circle drives a rotational or swirling pattern of movement in the cytoplasm. This actin network is composed of a combination of non-contractile radial stress fibers (AKA dorsal stress fibers) which are mechanically coupled to contractile transverse actin arcs (AKA actin arcs). The authors claim that directionality of the rotation of the cytoplasm (i.e., clockwise or anticlockwise) depends on either the actin arcs or radial fibers, respectively. While this would interesting, the authors are not able to remove either actin-based network without effecting the other. This is not surprising, as it is likely that the radial fibers require the arcs to elongate them, and the arcs require the radial fibers to stop them from collapsing. As such, it is difficult to make simple interpretations such as the clockwise bias is driven by the arcs and anticlockwise bias is driven by the radial fibers.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) There are also multiple problems with how the data is displayed and interpreted. First, it is difficult to compare the experimental data with the controls as the authors do not include control images in several of the figures. For example, Figure 6 has images showing myosin IIA distribution, but Figure 5 has the control image. Each figure needs to show controls. Otherwise, it will be difficult for the reader to understand the differences in localization of the proteins shown. This could be accomplished by either adding different control examples or by combining figures.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. We agree with the reviewer that it is difficult to compare our results in the current arrangement. The controls are included in the new Figure 6.

      (2) It is important that the authors should label the range of gray values of the heat maps shown. It is difficult to know how these maps were created. I could not find a description in the methods, nor have previous papers laid out a standardized way of doing it. As such, the reader needs some indication as to whether the maps showing different cells were created the same and show the same range of gray levels. In general, heat maps showing the same protein should have identical gray levels. The authors already show color bars next to the heat maps indicating the range of colors used. It should be a simple fix to label the minimum (blue on the color bar) and the maximum (red on the color bar) gray levels on these color bars. The profiles of actin shown in Figure 3 and Figure 3- figure supplement 3 were useful for interpretating the distribution of actin filaments. Why did not the authors show the same for the myosin IIa distributions?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. For generating the distribution heatmap, the images were taken under the same setting (e.g., fluorescent staining procedure, excitation intensity, or exposure time). The prerequisite of cells for image stacking was that they had to be fully spread on either 2500 µm2 or 750 µm2 circular patterns. Then, the location for image stacking was determined by identifying the center of each cell spread in a perfect circle. Finally, the images were aligned at the cell center to calculate the averaged intensity to show the distribution heatmap on the circular pattern. Revision is made on pages 19 to 20, lines 668 to 677.

      It is important to note that the individual heatmaps represent the normalized distribution generated using unique color intensity ranges. This approach was chosen to emphasize the proportional distribution of protein within cells and its variations among samples, especially for samples with generally lower expression levels. Additionally, a differential heatmap with its own range was employed to demonstrate the normalized differences compared to the control sample. Furthermore, to provide additional insight, we plotted the intensity profile of the same protein with the same size for comparative analysis. Revision is made on pages 20, lines 679 to 682.

      The labels of the heatmap are included to show the intensity in the revised Figure 3, Figure 5, Figure 6, and Figure 3 —figure supplement 4.

      To better illustrate the myosin IIa distribution, the myosin intensity profiles were plotted for Y27 treatment and gene silencing. The figures are included as Figure 5—figure supplement 2 and Figure 6—figure supplement 2. Revisions are made on pages 10, lines 332 to 334 and pages 11, lines 377 to 379.

      (3) Line 189 "This absence of radial fibers is unexpected". The authors should clarify what they mean by this statement. The claim that the cell in Figure 3B has reduced radial stress fiber is not supported by the data shown. Every actin structure in this cell is reduced compared to the cell on the larger micropattern in Figure 3A. It is unclear if the radial stress fibers are reduced more than the arcs. Are the authors referring to radial fiber elongation?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. We calculated the structures' pixel number and the percentage in the image to better illustrate the reduction of radial fiber or transverse arc. As radial fibers emerge from the cell boundary and point towards the cell center and the transverse arcs are parallel to the cell edge, the actin filament can be identified by their angle with respect to the cell center. We found that the pixel number of radial fiber is greatly reduced by 91.98 % on 750 µm2 compared to the 2500 µm2 pattern, while the pixel number of transverse arc is reduced by 70.58 % (Figure 3- figure supplement 3A). Additionally, we compared the percentage of actin structures on different pattern sizes (Figure 3- figure supplement 3B). On 2500 µm2 pattern, the percentage of radial fiber in the actin structure is 61.76 ± 2.77 %, but it only accounts for 31.13 ± 2.76 % while on 750 µm2 pattern. These results provide evidence of the structural reduction on a smaller pattern.

      Regarding the radial fiber elongation, we only discussed the reduction of radial fiber on 750 µm2 compared to the 2500 µm2 pattern in this part. For more understanding of the radial fiber contribution to chirality, we compared the radial fiber elongation rate in the LatA treatment and control on 2500 µm2 pattern (Figure 4). This result suggests the potential role of radial fiber in cell chirality. Revisions are made on page 6, lines 186 to 194; pages 17 to 18, 601 to 606; and the new Figure 3- figure supplement 3.

      (4) The choice of the small molecule inhibitors used in this study is difficult to understand, and their results are also confusing. For example, sequestering G actin with Latrunculin A is a complicated experiment. The authors use a relatively low concentration (50 nM) and show that actin filament-based structures are reduced and there are more in the center of the cell than in controls (Figure 3E). What was the logic of choosing this concentration?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. The concentration of drugs was selected based on literatures and their known effects on actin arrangement or chiral expression.

      For example, Latrunculin A was used at 50 nM concentration, which has been proven effective in reversing the chirality at or below 50 nM (Bao et al., 2020; Chin et al., 2018; Kwong et al., 2019; Wan et al., 2011). Similarly, the 2 µM A23187 treatment concentration was selected to initiate the actin remodeling (Shao et al., 2015). Furthermore, NSC23677 at 100 µM was found to efficiently inhibit the Rac1 activation and resulted in a distinct change in actin structure (Chen et al., 2011; Gao et al., 2004), enhancing ACW chiral expression. The revision is made on pages 6 to 7, lines 202 to 211.

      (5) Using a small molecule that binds the barbed end (e.g., cytochalasin) could conceivably be used to selectively remove longer actin filaments, which the radial fibers have compared to the lamellipodia and the transverse arcs. The authors should articulate how the actin cytoskeleton is being changed by latruculin treatment and the impact on chirality. Is it just that the radial stress fibers are not elongating? There seems to be more radial stress fibers than in controls, rather than an absence of radial stress fibers.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. Our results showed Latrunculin A treatment reversed the cell chirality. To compare the amount of radial fiber and transverse arc, we calculated the structures' pixel percentage. We found that, the percentage of radial fibers pixel with LatA treatment was reduced compared to that of the control, while the percentage of transverse arcs pixel increased (Figure 3— figure supplement 5). This result suggests that radial fibers are inhibited under Latrunculin A treatment.

      Furthermore, the elongation rate of radial fibers is reduced by Latrunculin A treatment (Figure 4). This result, along with the reduction of radial fiber percentage under Latrunculin A treatment suggests the significant impact of radial fiber on the ACW chirality.  Revisions are made on pages 7 to 8, lines 244 to 250 and the new Figure 3— figure supplement 5 and Figure 3— figure supplement 6.

      (6) Similar problems arise from the other small molecules as well. LPA has more effects than simply activating RhoA. Additionally, many of the quantifiable effects of LPA treatment are apparent only after the cells are serum starved, which does not seem to be the case here.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. The reviewer mentioned that the quantifiable effects of LPA treatments were seen after the cells were serum-starved. LPA is known to be a serum component and has an affinity to albumin in serum (Moolenaar, 1995). Serum starvation is often employed to better observe the effects of LPA by comparing conditions with and without LPA. We agree with the reviewer that the effect of LPA cannot be fully seen under the current setting. Based on the reviewer’s comment and after careful consideration, we have decided to remove the data related to LPA from our manuscript. Revisions are made on pages 6 to 7, 17 and Figure 3— figure supplement 4.

      (7) Furthermore, inhibiting ROCK with, Y-27632, effects myosin light chain phosphorylation and is not specific to myosin IIA. Are the two other myosin II paralogs expressed in these cells (myosin IIB and myosin IIC)? If so, the authors’ statements about this experiment should refer to myosin II not myosin IIa.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. We agree that ensuring accuracy and clarity in our statements is important. The terminology is revised to myosin II regarding the Y27632 experiment for a more concise description. Revision is made on pages 9 to 10 and 29, lines 317 to 341, 845 and 848.  

      (8) None of the uses of the small molecules above have supporting data using a different experimental method. For example, backing up the LPA experiment by perturbing RhoA tho.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. After careful consideration, we have decided to remove the data related to LPA from our manuscript. Revisions are made on pages 6 to 7, 17 and Figure 3— figure supplement 4.

      (9) The use of SMIFH2 as a "formin inhibitor" is also problematic. SMIFH2 also inhibits myosin II contractility, making interpreting its effects on cells difficult to impossible. The authors present data of mDia2 knockdown, which would be a good control for this SMIFH2.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. We agree that there is potential interference of SMIFH2 with myosin II contractility, which could introduce confounding factors to the results. Based on your comment and further consideration, we have decided to remove the data related to SMIFH2 from our manuscript. Revisions are made on pages 6 to 7, 10, 17 and Figure 3— figure supplement 4.

      (10) However, the authors claim that mDia2 "typically nucleates tropomyosin-decorated actin filaments, which recruit myosin II and anneal endwise with α-actinin- crosslinked actin filaments."

      There is no reference to this statement and the authors own data shows that both arcs and radial fibers are reduced by mDia2 knockdown. Overall, the formin data does not support the conclusions the authors report.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. We apologize for the lack of citation for this claim. To address this, we have added a reference to support this claim in the revised manuscript (Tojkander et al., 2011). Revision is made on page 10, line 345 to 347.

      Regarding the actin structure of mDia2 gene silencing, our results showed that myosin II was disassociated from the actin filament compared to the control. At the same time, there is no considerable differences in the actin structure of radial fibers and transverse arcs between the mDia2 gene silencing and the control.  

      (11) The data in Figure 7 does not support the conclusion that myosin IIa is exclusively on top of the cell. There are clear ventral stress fibers in A (actin) that have myosin IIa localization. The authors simply chose to not draw a line over them to create a height profile.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. To better illustrate myosin IIa distribution in a cell, we have included a video showing the myosin IIa staining from the base to the top of the cell (Video 7). At the cell base, the intensity of myosin IIa is relatively low at the center. However, when the focal plane elevates, we can clearly see the myosin II localizes near the top of the cell (Figure 7B and Video 7). Revision is made on page 12, lines 421 to 424, and the new Video 7. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Chirality of cells, organs, and organisms can stem from the chiral asymmetry of proteins and polymers at a much smaller lengthscale. The intrinsic chirality of actin filaments (F-actin) is implicated in the chiral arrangement and movement of cellular structures including F-actin-based bundles and the nucleus. It is unknown how opposite chiralities can be observed when the chirality of F-actin is invariant. Kwong, Chen, and co-authors explored this problem by studying chiral cell-scale structures in adherent mammalian cultured cells. They controlled the size of adhesive patches, and examined chirality at different timepoints. They made various molecular perturbations and used several quantitative assays. They showed that forces exerted by antiparallel actomyosin bundles on parallel radial bundles are responsible for the chirality of the actomyosin network at the cell scale.

      Strengths:

      Whereas previously, most effort has been put into understanding radial bundles, this study makes an important distinction that transverse or circumferential bundles are made of antiparallel actomyosin arrays. A minor point that was nice for the paper to make is that between the co-existing chirality of nuclear rotation and radial bundle tilt, it is the F-actin driving nuclear rotation and not the other way around. The paper is clearly written.

      Weaknesses:

      The paper could benefit from grammatical editing. Once the following Major and Minor points are addressed, which may not require any further experimentation and does not entail additional conditions, this manuscript would be appropriate for publication in eLife.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major:

      (1) The binary classification of cells as exhibiting clockwise or anticlockwise F-actin structures does not capture the instances where there is very little chirality, such as in the mDia2-depleted cells on small patches (Figure 6B). Such reports of cell chirality throughout the cell population need to be reported as the average angle of F-actin structures on a per cell basis as a rose plot or scatter plot of angle. These changes to cell-scoring and data display will be important to discern between conditions where chirality is random (50% CW, 50% ACW) from conditions where chirality is low (radial bundles are radial and transverse arcs are circumferential).

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. We apologize if we did not convey our analysis method clearly enough. Throughout the manuscript, unless mentioned otherwise, the chirality analysis was based on the chiral nucleus rotation within a period of observation. The only exception is the F-actin structure chirality, in Figure 3—figure supplement 1, which we analyzed the angle of radial fiber of the control cell on 2500 µm2. It was described on pages 5 to 6, lines 169-172, and the method section “Analysis of fiber orientation and actin structure on circular pattern” on page 17.

      Based on the feedback, we attempted to use a scatter plot to present the mDia2 overexpression and silencing to show the randomness of the result. However, because scatter plots primarily focus on visualizing the distribution, they become cluttered and visually overwhelming, as shown below.

      Author response image 1.

      (A) Percentage of ACW nucleus rotational bias on 2500 µm2 with untreated control (reused data from Figure 3D, n = 57), mDia2 silencing (n = 48), and overexpression (n = 25). (B) Probability of ACW/CW rotation on 750 µm2 pattern with untreated control (reused data from Figure 3E, n = 34), mDia2 silencing (n = 53), and overexpressing (n = 22). Mean ± SEM. Two-sample equal variance two-tailed t-test.

      Therefore, in our manuscript, the presentation primarily used a column bar chart with statistical analysis, the Student T-test. The column bar chart makes it easier to understand and compare values. In brief, the Student T-test is commonly used to evaluate whether the means between the two groups are significantly different, assuming equal variance. As such, the Student T-test is able to discern the randomness of the chirality.

      (2) The authors need to discuss the likely nucleator of F-actin in the radial bundles, since it is apparently not mDia2 in these cells.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. In our manuscript, we originally focused on mDia2 and Tpm4 as they are the transverse arc nucleator and the mediator of myosin II motion. However, we agree with the reviewer that discussing the radial fiber nucleator would provide more insight into radial fiber polymerization in ACW chirality and improve the completeness of the story.

      Radial fiber polymerizes at the focal adhesion. Serval proteins are involved in actin nucleation or stress fiber formation at the focal adhesion, such as Arp2/3 complex (Serrels et al., 2007), Ena/VASP (Applewhite et al., 2007; Gateva et al., 2014), and formins (Dettenhofer et al., 2008; Sahasrabudhe et al., 2016; Tsuji et al., 2002), etc. Within the formin family, mDia1 is the likely nucleator of F-actin in the radial bundle. The presence of mDia1 facilitates the elongation of actin bundles at focal adhesion (Hotulainen and Lappalainen, 2006). Studies by Jalal, et al (2019) (Jalal et al., 2019) and Tee, et al (2023) (Tee et al., 2023), have demonstrated the silencing of mDia1 abolished the ACW actin expression. Silencing of other nucleation proteins like Arp2/3 complex or Ena/VASP would only reduce the ACW actin expression without abolishing it.

      Based on these findings, the attenuation of radial fiber elongation would abolish the ACW chiral expression, providing more support for our model in explaining chirality expression.

      This part is incorporated into the Discussion. The revision is made on page 13, lines 443, 449 to 459.

      Minor:

      (1) In the introduction, additional observations of handedness reversal need to be referenced (line 79), including Schonegg, Hyman, and Wood 2014 and Zaatri, Perry, and Maddox 2021.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. The observations of handedness reversal references are cited on page 3, line 78 to 79.

      (2) For clarity of logic, the authors should share the rationale for choosing, and results from administering, the collection of compounds as presented in Figure 3 one at a time instead of as a list.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. The concentration of drugs was determined based on existing literature and their known outcomes on actin arrangement or chiral expression.

      To elucidate, the use of Latrunculin A was based on previous studies, which have demonstrated to reverse the chirality at or below 50 nM (Bao et al., 2020; Chin et al., 2018; Kwong et al., 2019; Wan et al., 2011).  Because inhibiting F-actin assembly can lead to the expression of CW chirality, we hypothesized that the opposite treatment might enhance ACW chirality. Therefore, we chose A23187 treatment with 2 µM concentration as it could initiate the actin remodeling and stress fiber formation (Shao et al., 2015).

      Furthermore, in the attempt to replicate the reversal of chirality by inhibiting F-actin assembly through other pathways, we explored NSC23677 at 100 µM, which was found to inhibit the Rac1 activation (Chen et al., 2011; Gao et al., 2004) and reduce cortical F-actin assembly (Head et al., 2003). However, it failed to reverse the chirality but enhanced the ACW chirality of the cell.

      We carefully selected the drugs and the applied concentration to investigate various pathways and mechanisms that influence actin arrangement and might affect the chiral expression. We believe that this clarification strengthens the rationale behind our choice of drug. The revision is made on pages 6 to 7, lines 202 to 211.

      (3) "Image stacking" isn't a common term to this referee. Its first appearance in the main text (line 183) should be accompanied with a call-out to the Methods section. The authors could consider referring to this approach more directly. Related issue: Image stacking fails to report the prominent enrichment of F-actin at the very cell periphery (see Figure 3 A and F) except for with images of cells on small islands (Figure 3H). Since this data display approach seems to be adding the intensity from all images together, and since cells on circular adhesive patches are relatively radially symmetric, it is unclear how to align cells, but perhaps cells could be aligned based on a slight asymmetry such as the peripheral location with highest F-actin intensity or the apparent location of the centrosome.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. We fully acknowledge the uncommon use of “image stacking” and the insufficient description of image stacking under the Method section. First, we have added a call-out to the Methods section at its first appearance (Page 6, Lines 182 to 183). The method of image stacking is as follows. During generating the distribution heatmap, the images were taken under the same setting (e.g., staining procedure, fluorescent intensity, exposure time, etc.). The prerequisite of cells to be included in image stacking was that they had to be fully spread on either 2500 µm2 or 750 µm2 circular patterns. Then, the consistent position for image stacking could be found by identifying the center of each cell spreading in a perfect circle. Finally, the images were aligned at the center to calculate the averaged intensity to show the distribution heatmap on the circular pattern.

      We agree with the reviewer that our image alignment and stacking are based on cells that are radially symmetric. As such, the intensity distribution of stacked image is to compare the difference of F-actin along the radial direction. Revision is made on page 19, lines 668 to 682.

      (4) The authors need to be consistent with wording about chirality, avoiding "right" and left (e.g. lines 245-6) since if the cell periphery were oriented differently in the cropped view, the tilt would be a different direction side-to-side but the same chirality. This section is confusing since the peripheral radial bundles are quite radial, and the inner ones are pointing from upper left to lower right, pointing (to the right) more downward over time, rather than more right-ward, in the cropped images.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. We apologize for the confusion caused by our description of the tilting direction. For consistency in our later description, we mention the “right” or “left” direction of the radial fibers referencing to the elongation of the radial fiber, which then brings the “rightward tilting” toward the ACW rotation of the chiral pattern. To maintain the word “rightward tilting”, we added the description to ensure accurate communication in our writing. We also rearrange the image in the new Figure 4A and Video 2 for better observation. Revision is made on page 8, lines 262 to 263.

      (5) Why are the cells Figure 4A dominated by radial (and more-central, tilting fibers, while control cells in 4D show robust circumferential transverse arcs? Have these cells been plated for different amounts of time or is a different optical section shown?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. The cells in Figure 4A and Figure 4D are prepared with similar conditions, such as incubation time and optical setting. Actin organization is a dynamic process, and cells can exhibit varied actin arrangements, transitioning between different forms such as circular, radial, chordal, chiral, or linear patterns, as they spread on a circular island (Tee et al., 2015). In Figure 4A, the actin is arranged in a chiral pattern, whereas in Figure 4D, the actin exhibits a radial pattern. These variations reflect the natural dynamics of actin organization within cells during the imaging process.

      (6) All single-color images (such as Fig 5 F-actin) need to be black-on-white, since it is far more difficult to see F-actin morphology with red on black.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. We have changed all F-actin images (single color) into black and white for better image clarity. Revisions are made in the new Figure 5, Figure 6 and Figure 7.

      (7) Figure 5A, especially the F-actin staining, is quite a bit blurrier than other micrographs. These images should be replaced with images of comparable quality to those shown throughout.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. We agree that the F-actin staining in Figure 5 is difficult to observe. To improve image clarity, the F-actin staining images are replaced with more zoomed-in image. Revision is made in the new Figure 5.

      (8) F-actin does not look unchanged by Y27632 treatment, as the authors state in line 306. This may be partially due to image quality and the ambiguities of communicating with the blue-to-red colormap. Similarly, I don't agree that mDia2 depletion did not change F-actin distribution (line 330) as cells in that condition had a prominent peripheral ring of F-actin missing from cells in other conditions.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. We agree with the reviewer’s observation that the F-actin distribution is indeed changed under Y27632 treatment compared to the control in Figure 5A-B. Here, we would like to emphasize that the actin ring persists despite the actin structure being altered under the Y27632 treatment. The actin ring refers to the darker red circle in the distribution heatmap. It presents the condensed actin structure, including radial fibers and transverse arcs. This important structure remains unaffected despite the disruption of myosin II, the key component in radial fiber.

      Furthermore, we agree with the reviewer that mDia2 depletion does change F-actin distribution. Similar to the Y27632 treatment, the actin ring persists despite the actin structure being altered under mDia2 gene silencing. Moreover, compared to other treatments, mDia2 depletion has less significant impact on actin distribution. To address these points more comprehensively, we have made revision in Y27632 treatment and mDia2 sections. The revisions of Y27632 and mDia2 are made on pages 10, lines 324-327 and 352-353, respectively.

      (9) The colormap shown for intensity coding should be reconsidered, as dark red is harder to see than the yellow that is sub-maximal. Verdis is a colormap ranging from cooler and darker blue, through green, to warmer and lighter yellow as the maximum. Other options likely exist as well.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. We carefully considered the reviewer’s concern and explored other color scale choices in the colormap function in Matlab. After evaluating different options, including “Verdis” color scale, we found that “jet” provides a wide range of colors, allowing the effective visual presentation of intensity variation in our data. The use of ‘jet’ allows us to appropriately visualize the actin ring distribution, which represented in red or dark re. While we understand that dark red could be harder to see than the sub-maximal yellow, we believe that “jet” serves our purpose of presenting the intensity information.

      (10) For Figure 6, why doesn't average distribution of NMMIIa look like the example with high at periphery, low inside periphery, moderate throughout lamella, low perinuclear, and high central?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. We understand that the reviewer’s concern about the average distribution of NMMIIa not appearing as the same as the example. The chosen image is the best representation of the NMMIIa disruption from the transverse arcs after the mDia2 silencing. Additionally, it is important to note that the average distribution result is a stacked image which includes other images. As such, the NMMIIA example and the distribution heatmap might not necessarily appear identical.

      (11) In 2015, Tee, Bershadsky and colleagues demonstrated that transverse bundles are dorsal to radial bundles, using correlative light and electron microscopy. While it is important for Kwong and colleagues to show that this is true in their cells, they should reference Tee et al. in the rationale section of text pertaining to Figure 7.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. Tee, et al (Tee et al., 2015) demonstrated the transverse fiber is at the same height as the radial fiber based on the correlative light and electron microscopy. Here, using the position of myosin IIa, a transverse arc component, our results show the dorsal positioning of transverse arcs with connection to the extension of radial fibers (Figure 7C), which is consistent with their findings. It is included in our manuscript, page 12, lines 421 to 424, and page 14 lines 477 to 480.

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    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors develop a method to fluorescently tag peptides loaded onto dendritic cells using a two-step method with a tetracystein motif modified peptide and labelling step done on the surface of live DC using a dye with high affinity for the added motif. The results are convincing in demonstrating in vitro and in vivo T cell activation and efficient label transfer to specific T cells in vivo. The label transfer technique will be useful to identify T cells that have recognised a DC presenting a specific peptide antigen to allow the isolation of the T cell and cloning of its TCR subunits, for example. It may also be useful as a general assay for in vitro or in vivo T-DC communication that can allow the detection of genetic or chemical modulators.

      Strengths:

      The study includes both in vitro and in vivo analysis including flow cytometry and two-photon laser scanning microscopy. The results are convincing and the level of T cell labelling with the fluorescent pMHC is surprisingly robust and suggests that the approach is potentially revealing something about fundamental mechanisms beyond the state of the art.

      Weaknesses:

      The method is demonstrated only at high pMHC density and it is not clear if it can operate at at lower peptide doses where T cells normally operate. However, this doesn't limit the utility of the method for applications where the peptide of interest is known. It's not clear to me how it could be used to de-orphan known TCR and this should be explained if they want to claim this as an application. Previous methods based on biotin-streptavidin and phycoerythrin had single pMHC sensitivity, but there were limitations to the PE-based probe so the use of organic dyes could offer advantages.

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable comments and suggestions. Indeed, we have shown and optimized this labeling technique for a commonly used peptide at rather high doses to provide a proof of principle for the possible use of tetracysteine tagged peptides for in vitro and in vivo studies. However, we completely agree that the studies that require different peptides and/or lower pMHC concentrations may require preliminary experiments if the use of biarsenical probes is attempted. We think it can help investigate the functional and biological properties of the peptides for TCRs deorphaned by techniques. Tetracysteine tagging of such peptides would provide a readily available antigen-specific reagent for the downstream assays and validation. Other possible uses for modified immunogenic peptides could be visualizing the dynamics of neoantigen vaccines or peptide delivery methods in vivo. For these additional uses, we recommend further optimization based on the needs of the prospective assay.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors here develop a novel Ovalbumin model peptide that can be labeled with a site-specific FlAsH dye to track agonist peptides both in vitro and in vivo. The utility of this tool could allow better tracking of activated polyclonal T cells particularly in novel systems. The authors have provided solid evidence that peptides are functional, capable of activating OTII T cells, and that these peptides can undergo trogocytosis by cognate T cells only.

      Strengths:

      -An array of in vitro and in vivo studies are used to assess peptide functionality.

      -Nice use of cutting-edge intravital imaging.

      -Internal controls such as non-cogate T cells to improve the robustness of the results (such as Fig 5A-D).

      -One of the strengths is the direct labeling of the peptide and the potential utility in other systems.

      Weaknesses:

      1. What is the background signal from FlAsH? The baselines for Figure 1 flow plots are all quite different. Hard to follow. What does the background signal look like without FLASH (how much fluorescence shift is unlabeled cells to No antigen+FLASH?). How much of the FlAsH in cells is actually conjugated to the peptide? In Figure 2E, it doesn't look like it's very specific to pMHC complexes. Maybe you could double-stain with Ab for MHCII. Figure 4e suggests there is no background without MHCII but I'm not fully convinced. Potentially some MassSpec for FLASH-containing peptides.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out a possible area of confusion. In fact, we have done extensive characterization of the background and found that it has varied with the batch of FlAsH, TCEP, cytometer and also due to the oxidation prone nature of the reagents. Because Figure 1 subfigures have been derived from different experiments, a combination of the factors above have likely contributed to the inconsistent background. To display the background more objectively, we have now added the No antigen+Flash background to the revised Fig 1.

      It is also worthwhile noting that nonspecific Flash incorporation can be toxic at increasing doses, and live cells that display high backgrounds may undergo early apoptotic changes in vitro. However, when these cells are adoptively transferred and tracked in vivo, the compromised cells with high background possibly undergo apoptosis and get cleared by macrophages in the lymph node. The lack of clearance in vitro further contributes to different backgrounds between in vitro and in vivo, which we think is also a possible cause for the inconsistent backgrounds throughout the manuscript. Altogether, comparison of absolute signal intensities from different experiments would be misleading and the relative differences within each experiment should be relied upon. We have added further discussion about this issue.

      1. On the flip side, how much of the variant peptides are getting conjugated in cells? I'd like to see some quantification (HPLC or MassSpec). If it's ~10% of peptides that get labeled, this could explain the low shifts in fluorescence and the similar T cell activation to native peptides if FlasH has any deleterious effects on TCR recognition. But if it's a high rate of labeling, then it adds confidence to this system.

      We agree that mass spectrometry or, more specifically tandem MS/MS, would be an excellent addition to support our claim about peptide labeling by FlAsH being reliable and non-disruptive. Therefore, we have recently undertaken a tandem MS/MS quantitation project with our collaborators. However, this would require significant time to determine the internal standard based calibration curves and to run both analytical and biological replicates. Hence, we have decided pursuing this as a follow up study and added further discussion on quantification of the FlAsH-peptide conjugates by tandem MS/MS.

      1. Conceptually, what is the value of labeling peptides after loading with DCs? Why not preconjugate peptides with dye, before loading, so you have a cleaner, potentially higher fluorescence signal? If there is a potential utility, I do not see it being well exploited in this paper. There are some hints in the discussion of additional use cases, but it was not clear exactly how they would work. One mention was that the dye could be added in real-time in vivo to label complexes, but I believe this was not done here. Is that feasible to show?

      We have already addressed preconjugation as a possible avenue for labeling peptides. In our hands, preconjugation resulted in low FlAsH intensity overall in both the control and tetracysteine labeled peptides (Author response image 1). While we don’t have a satisfactory answer as to why the signal was blunted due to preconjugation, it could be that the tetracysteine tagged peptides attract biarsenical compounds better intracellularly. It may be due to the redox potential of the intracellular environment that limits disulfide bond formation. (PMID: 18159092)

      Author response image 1.

      Preconjugation yields poor FlAsH signal. Splenic DCs were pulsed with peptide then treated with FlAsH or incubated with peptide-FlAsH preconjugates. Overlaid histograms show the FlAsH intensities on DCs following the two-step labeling (left) and preconjugation (right). Data are representative of two independent experiments, each performed with three biological replicates.

      1. Figure 5D-F the imaging data isn't fully convincing. For example, in 5F and 2G, the speeds for T cells with no Ag should be much higher (10-15micron/min or 0.16-0.25micron/sec). The fact that yours are much lower speeds suggests technical or biological issues, that might need to be acknowledged or use other readouts like the flow cytometry.

      We thank the reviewer for drawing attention to this technical point. We would like to point out that the imaging data in fig 5 d-f was obtained from agarose embedded live lymph node sections. Briefly, the lymph nodes were removed, suspended in 2% low melting temp agarose in DMEM and cut into 200 µm sections with a vibrating microtome. Prior to imaging, tissue sections were incubated in complete RPMI medium at 37 °C for 2 h to resume cell mobility. Thus, we think the cells resuming their typical speeds ex vivo may account for slightly reduced T cell speeds overall, for both control and antigen-specific T cells (PMID: 32427565, PMID: 25083865). We have added text to prevent the ambiguity about the technique for dynamic imaging. The speeds in Figure 2g come from live imaging of DC-T cell cocultures, in which the basal cell movement could be hampered by the cell density. Additionally, glass bottom dishes have been coated with Fibronectin to facilitate DC adhesion, which may be responsible for the lower average speeds of the T cells in vitro.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Does the reaction of ReAsH with reactive sites on the surface of DC alter them functionally? Functions have been attributed to redox chemistry at the cell surface- could this alter this chemistry?

      We thank the reviewer for the insight. It is possible that the nonspecific binding of biarsenical compounds to cysteine residues, which we refer to as background throughout the manuscript, contribute to some alterations. One possible way biarsenicals affect the redox events in DCs can be via reducing glutathione levels (PMID: 32802886). Glutathione depletion is known to impair DC maturation and antigen presentation (PMID: 20733204). To avoid toxicity, we have carried out a stringent titration to optimize ReAsH and FlAsH concentrations for labeling and conducted experiments using doses that did not cause overt toxicity or altered DC function.

      Have the authors compared this to a straightforward approach where the peptide is just labelled with a similar dye and incubated with the cell to load pMHC using the MHC knockout to assess specificity? Why is this that involves exposing the DC to a high concentration of TCEP, better than just labelling the peptide? The Davis lab also arrived at a two-step method with biotinylated peptide and streptavidin-PE, but I still wonder if this was really necessary as the sensitivity will always come down to the ability to wash out the reagents that are not associated with the MHC.

      We agree with the reviewer that small undisruptive fluorochrome labeled peptide alternatives would greatly improve the workflow and signal to noise ratio. In fact, we have been actively searching for such alternatives since we have started working on the tetracysteine containing peptides. So far, we have tried commercially available FITC and TAMRA conjugated OVA323-339 for loading the DCs, however failed to elicit any discernible signal. We also have an ongoing study where we have been producing and testing various in-house modified OVA323-339 that contain fluorogenic properties. Unfortunately, at this moment, the ones that provided us with a crisp, bright signal for loading revealed that they have also incorporated to DC membrane in a nonspecific fashion and have been taken up by non-cognate T cells from double antigen-loaded DCs. We are actively pursuing this area of investigation and developing better optimized peptides with low/non-significant membrane incorporation.

      Lastly, we would like to point out that tetracysteine tags are visible by transmission electron microscopy without FlAsH treatment. Thus, this application could add a new dimension for addressing questions about the antigen/pMHCII loading compartments in future studies. We have now added more in-depth discussion about the setbacks and advantages of using tetracysteine labeled peptides in immune system studies.

      The peptide dosing at 5 µM is high compared to the likely sensitivity of the T cells. It would be helpful to titrate the system down to the EC50 for the peptide, which may be nM, and determine if the specific fluorescence signal can still be detected in the optimal conditions. This will not likely be useful in vivo, but it will be helpful to see if the labelling procedure would impact T cell responses when antigen is limited, which will be more of a test. At 5 µM it's likely the system is at a plateau and even a 10-fold reduction in potency might not impact the T cell response, but it would shift the EC50.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment and suggestion. We agree that it is possible to miss minimally disruptive effects at 5 µM and titrating the native peptide vs. modified peptide down to the nM doses would provide us a clearer view. This can certainly be addressed in future studies and also with other peptides with different affinity profiles. A reason why we have chosen a relatively high dose for this study was that lowering the peptide dose had costed us the specific FlAsH signal, thus we have proceeded with the lowest possible peptide concentration.

      In Fig 3b the level of background in the dsRed channel is very high after DC transfer. What cells is this associated with and does this appear be to debris? Also, I wonder where the ReAsH signal is in the experiments in general. I believe this is a red dye and it would likely be quite bright given the reduction of the FlAsH signal. Will this signal overlap with signals like dsRed and PHK-26 if the DC is also treated with this to reduce the FlAsH background?

      We have already shown that ReAsH signal with DsRed can be used for cell-tracking purposes as they don’t get transferred to other cells during antigen specific interactions (Author response image 2). In fact, combining their exceptionally bright fluorescence provided us a robust signal to track the adoptively transferred DCs in the recipient mice. On the other hand, the lipophilic membrane dye PKH-26 gets transferred by trogocytosis while the remaining signal contributes to the red fluorescence for tracking DCs. Therefore, the signal that we show to be transferred from DCs to T cells only come from the lipophilic dye. To address this, we have added a sentence to elaborate on this in the results section. Regarding the reviewer’s comment on DsRed background in Figure 3b., we agree that the cells outside the gate in recipient mice seems slightly higher that of the control mice. It may suggest that the macrophages clearing up debris from apoptotic/dying DCs might contribute to the background elicited from the recipient lymph node. Nevertheless, it does not contribute to any DsRed/ReAsH signal in the antigen-specific T cells.

      Author response image 2.

      ReAsH and DsRed are not picked up by T cells during immune synapse. DsRed+ DCs were labeled with ReAsH, pulsed with 5 μM OVACACA, labeled with FlAsH and adoptively transferred into CD45.1 congenic mice mice (1-2 × 106 cells) via footpad. Naïve e450-labeled OTII and e670-labeled polyclonal CD4+ T cells were mixed 1:1 (0.25-0.5 × 106/ T cell type) and injected i.v. Popliteal lymph nodes were removed at 42 h post-transfer and analyzed by flow cytometry. Overlaid histograms show the ReAsh/DsRed, MHCII and FlAsH intensities of the T cells. Data are representative of two independent experiments with n=2 mice per group.

      In Fig 5b there is a missing condition. If they look at Ea-specific T cells for DC with without the Ova peptide do they see no transfer of PKH-26 to the OTII T cells? Also, the FMI of the FlAsH signal transferred to the T cells seems very high compared to other experiments. Can the author estimate the number of peptides transferred (this should be possible) and would each T cell need to be collecting antigens from multiple DC? Could the debris from dead DC also contribute to this if picked up by other DC or even directly by the T cells? Maybe this could be tested by transferring DC that are killed (perhaps by sonication) prior to inoculation?

      To address the reviewer’s question on the PKH-26 acquisition by T cells, Ea-T cells pick up PKH-26 from Ea+OVA double pulsed DCs, but not from the unpulsed or single OVA pulsed DCs. OTII T cells acquire PKH-26 from OVA-pulsed DCs, whereas Ea T cells don’t (as expected) and serve as an internal negative control for that condition. Regarding the reviewer’s comment on the high FlAsH signal intensity of T cells in Figure 5b, a plausible explanation can be that the T cells accumulate pMHCII through serial engagements with APCs. In fact, a comparison of the T cell FlAsH intensities 18 h and 36-48 h post-transfer demonstrate an increase (Author response image 3) and thus hints at a cumulative signal. As DCs are known to be short-lived after adoptive transfer, the debris of dying DCs along with its peptide content may indeed be passed onto macrophages, neighboring DCs and eventually back to T cells again (or for the first time, depending on the T:DC ratio that may not allow all T cells to contact with the transferred DCs within the limited time frame). We agree that the number and the quality of such contacts can be gauged using fluorescent peptides. However, we think peptides chemically conjugated to fluorochromes with optimized signal to noise profiles and with less oxidation prone nature would be more suitable for quantification purposes.

      Author response image 3.

      FlAsH signal acquisition by antigen specific T cells becomes more prominent at 36-48 h post-transfer. DsRed+ splenic DCs were double-pulsed with 5 μM OVACACA and 5 μM OVA-biotin and adoptively transferred into CD45.1 recipients (2 × 106 cells) via footpad. Naïve e450-labeled OTII (1 × 106 cells) and e670-labeled polyclonal T cells (1 × 106 cells) were injected i.v. Popliteal lymph nodes were analyzed by flow cytometry at 18 h or 48 h post-transfer. Overlaid histograms show the T cell levels of OVACACA (FlAsH). Data are representative of three independent experiments with n=3 mice per time point

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      As mentioned in weaknesses 1 & 2, more validation of how much of the FlAsH fluorescence is on agonist peptides and how much is non-specific would improve the interpretation of the data. Another option would be to preconjugate peptides but that might be a significant effort to repeat the work.

      We agree that mass spectrometry would be the gold standard technique to measure the percentage of tetracysteine tagged peptide is conjugated to FlAsH in DCs. However, due to the scope of such endevour this can only be addressed as a separate follow up study. As for the preconjugation, we have tried and unfortunately failed to get it to work (Reviewer Figure 1). Therefore, we have shifted our focus to generating in-house peptide probes that are chemically conjugated to stable and bright fluorophore derivates. With that, we aim to circumvent the problems that the two-step FlAsH labeling poses.

      Along those lines, do you have any way to quantify how many peptides you are detecting based on fluorescence? Being able to quantify the actual number of peptides would push the significance up.

      We think two step procedure and background would pose challenges to such quantification in this study. although it would provide tremendous insight on the antigen-specific T cell- APC interactions in vivo, we think it should be performed using peptides chemically conjugated to fluorochromes with optimized signal to noise profiles.

      In Figure 3D or 4 does the SA signal correlate with Flash signal on OT2 cells? Can you correlate Flash uptake with T cell activation, downstream of TCR, to validate peptide transfers?

      To answer the reviewer’s question about FlAsH and SA correlation, we have revised the Figure 3d to show the correlation between OTII uptake of FlAsH, Streptavidin and MHCII. We also thank the reviewer for the suggestion on correlating FlAsH uptake with T cell activation and/or downstream of TCR activation. We have used proliferation and CD44 expressions as proxies of activation (Fig 2, 6). Nevertheless, we agree that the early events that correspond to the initiation of T-DC synapse and FlAsH uptake would be valuable to demonstrate the temporal relationship between peptide transfer and activation. Therefore, we have addressed this in the revised discussion.

      Author response image 4.

      FlAsH signal acquisition by antigen specific T cells is correlates with the OVA-biotin (SA) and MHCII uptake. DsRed+ splenic DCs were double-pulsed with 5 μM OVACACA and 5 μM OVA-biotin and adoptively transferred into CD45.1 recipients (2 × 106 cells) via footpad. Naïve e450-labeled OTII (1 × 106 cells) and e670-labeled polyclonal T cells (1 × 106 cells) were injected i.v. Popliteal lymph nodes were analyzed by flow cytometry. Overlaid histograms show the T cell levels of OVACACA (FlAsH) at 48 h post-transfer. Data are representative of three independent experiments with n=3 mice.

      Minor:

      Figure 3F, 5D, and videos: Can you color-code polyclonal T cells a different color than magenta (possibly white or yellow), as they have the same look as the overlay regions of OT2-DC interactions (Blue+red = magenta).

      We apologize for the inconvenience about the color selection. We have had difficulty in assigning colors that are bright and distinct. Unfortunately, yellow and white have also been easily mixed up with the FlAsH signal inside red and blue cells respectively. We have now added yellow and white arrows to better point out the polyclonal vs. antigen specific cells in 3f and 5d.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This important study combines fMRI and electrophysiology in sedated and awake rats to show that LFPs strongly explain spatial correlations in resting-state fMRI but only weakly explain temporal variability. They propose that other, electrophysiology-invisible mechanisms contribute to the fMRI signal. The evidence supporting the separation of spatial and temporal correlations is convincing, however, the support of electrophysiological-invisible mechanisms is incomplete, considering alternative potential factors that could account for the differences in spatial and temporal correlation that were observed. This work will be of interest to researchers who study the fundamental mechanisms behind resting-state fMRI.

      We appreciate the encouraging comments. We added a section in discussion that thoroughly discussed the potential alternative factors that could account for the differences in spatial and temporal correlation that we observed. 

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Tu et al investigated how LFPs recorded simultaneously with rsfMRI explain the spatiotemporal patterns of functional connectivity in sedated and awake rats. They find that connectivity maps generated from gamma band LFPs (from either area) explain very well the spatial correlations observed in rsfMRI signals, but that the temporal variance in rsfMRI data is more poorly explained by the same LFP signals. The authors excluded the effects of sedation in this effect by investigating rats in the awake state (a remarkable feat in the MRI scanner), where the findings generally replicate. The authors also performed a series of tests to assess multiple factors (including noise, outliers, and nonlinearity of the data) in their analysis.

      This apparent paradox is then explained by a hypothetical model in which LFPs and neurovascular coupling are generated in some sense "in parallel" by different neuron types, some of which drive LFPs and are measured by ePhys, while others (nNOS, etc.) have an important role in neurovascular coupling but are less visible in Ephys data. Hence the discrepancy is explained by the spatial similarity of neural activity but the more "selective" LFPs picked up by Ephys account for the different temporal aspects observed.

      This is a deep, outstanding study that harnesses multidisciplinary approaches (fMRI and ephys) for observing brain activity. The results are strongly supported by the comprehensive analyses done by the authors, which ruled out many potential sources for the observed findings. The study's impact is expected to be very large.

      Comment: There are very few weaknesses in the work, but I'd point out that the 1second temporal resolution may have masked significant temporal correlations between

      LFPs and spontaneous activity, for instance, as shown by Cabral et al Nature Communications 2023, and even in earlier QPP work from the Keilholz Lab. The synchronization of the LFPs may correlate more with one of these modes than the total signal. Perhaps a kind of "dynamic connectivity" analysis on the authors' data could test whether LFPs correlate better with the activity at specific intervals. However, this could purely be discussed and left for future work, in my opinion.

      We appreciate this great point. Indeed, it is likely that LFP and rsfMRI signals are more strongly related during some modes/instances than others, and hence correlation across the entire time series may have masked this effect. In addition, we agree that 1-second temporal resolution may obscure some temporal correlations between LFPs and rsfMRI signal. The choice of 1-second temporal resolution was made to be consistent with the TR in our fMRI experiment, considering the slow hemodynamic response. Ultrafast fMRI imaging combined with dynamic connectivity analysis in a future study might enable more detailed examination of BOLD-LFP temporal correlations at higher temporal resolutions. We have added the following paragraph to the revised manuscript:

      “Our proposed theoretic model represents just one potential explanation for the apparent discrepancy in temporal and spatial relationships between resting-state electrophysiology and BOLD signals. It is important to acknowledge that there may be other scenarios where a stronger temporal relationship between LFP and BOLD signals could manifest. For instance, recent research suggests that the relationship between LFP and rsfMRI signals may vary across different modes or instances (Cabral et al., 2023), which can be masked by correlations across the entire time series. Moreover, the 1-second temporal resolution employed in our study may obscure certain temporal correlations between LFPs and rsfMRI signals. Future investigations employing ultrafast fMRI imaging coupled with dynamic connectivity analysis could offer a more nuanced exploration of BOLD-LFP temporal correlations at higher temporal resolutions (Bolt et al., 2022; Cabral et al., 2023; Ma and Zhang, 2018; Thompson et al., 2014).”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The authors address a question that is interesting and important to the sub-field of rsfMRI that examines electrophysiological correlates of rsfMRI. That is, while electrophysiology-produced correlation maps often appear similar to correlation maps produced from BOLD alone (as has been shown in many papers) is this actually coming from the same source of variance, or independent but spatially-correlated sources of variance? To address this, the authors recorded LFP signals in 2 areas (M1 and ACC) and compared the maps produced by correlating BOLD with them to maps produced by BOLD-BOLD correlations. They then attempt to remove various sources of variance and see the results.

      The basic concept of the research is sound, though primarily of interest to the subset of rsfMRI researchers who use simultaneous electrophysiology. However, there are major problems in the writing, and also a major methodological problem.

      Major problems with writing:

      Comment 1: There is substantial literature on rats on site-specific LFP recording compared to rsfMRI, and much of it already examined removing part of the LFP and examining rsfMRI, or vice versa. The authors do not cover it and consider their work on signal removal more novel than it is.

      We have added more literature studies to the revised manuscript. It is important to note that while there exists a substantial body of literature on site-specific LFP recording coupled with rsfMRI, our paper makes a significant contribution by unveiling the disparity in temporal and spatial relationships between resting-state electrophysiological and fMRI signals. This goes beyond mere reporting of spatial/temporal correlations. Furthermore, our exploration of the impact of removing LFP on rsfMRI spatial patterns constitutes one among several analyses employed to demonstrate that the temporal fluctuations of LFP minimally affect BOLD-derived RSN spatial patterns. We wish to clarify that our intention is not to claim this aspect of our work is more novel than similar analyses conducted in previous studies (we apologize if our original manuscript conveyed that impression). Rather, the novelty lies in the objective of this analysis, which is to elucidate the displarity in temporal and spatial relationships between resting-state electrophysiological and fMRI signals—a crucial issue that has not been thoroughly addressed previously. 

      Comment 2: The conclusion of the existence of an "electrophysiology-invisible signal" is far too broad considering the limited scope of this study. There are many factors that can be extracted from LFP that are not used in this study (envelope, phase, infraslow frequencies under 0.1Hz, estimated MUA, etc.) and there are many ways of comparing it to the rsfMRI data that are not done in this study (rank correlation, transformation prior to comparison, clustering prior to comparison, etc.). The one non-linear method used, mutual information, is low sensitivity and does not cover every possible nonlinear interaction. Mutual information is also dependent upon the number of bins selected in the data. Previous studies (see 1) have seen similar results where fMRI and LFP were not fully commensurate but did not need to draw such broad conclusions.

      First we would like to clarify that the existence of "electrophysiologyinvisible signal" is not necessarily a conclusion of the present study, per se, as described by the reviewer. As we stated in our manuscript, it is a proposed theoretical model. We fully acknowledge that this model represents just one potential explanation for the apparent discrepancy in temporal and spatial relationships between resting-state electrophysiology and BOLD signals. It is important to acknowledge that there may be other scenarios where a stronger temporal relationship between LFP and BOLD signals could manifest. This issue has been further clarified in the revised manuscript (see the section of Potential pitfalls). 

      We agree with the reviewer that not all factors that can be extracted from LFP are examined. In our current study we focused solely on band-limited LFP power as the primary feature in our analysis, given its prevalence in prior studies of LFP-rsfMRI correlates. More importantly, we demonstrate that band-specific LFP powers can yield spatial patterns nearly identical to those derived from rsfMRI signals, prompting a closer examination of the temporal relationship between these same features. Furthermore, since correlational analysis was used in studying the LFP-BOLD spatial relationship, we used the same analysis method when comparing their temporal relationship. 

      Extracting all possible features from the electrophysiology signal and examining their relationship with the rsfMRI signal or exploring all other types of ways of comparing LFP and rsfMRI signals goes beyond the scope of the current study. However, to address the reviewer’s concern, we tried a couple of analysis methods suggested by the reviewer, and results remain persistent. Figure S14 shows the results from (A) the rank correlation and (B) z transformation prior to comparison. We added these new results to the revised manuscript.

      Comment 3: The writing refers to the spatial extent of correlation with the LFP signal as "spatial variance." However, LFP was recorded from a very limited point and the variance in the correlation map does not necessarily reflect underlying electrophysiological spatial distributions (e.g. Yu et al. Nat Commun. 2023 Mar 24;14(1):1651.)

      The reviewer accurately pointed out that in our paper, “spatial variance” refers to the spatial variance of BOLD correlates with the LFP signal. Our objective is to assess the extent to which this spatial variance, which is derived from the neural activity captured by LFP in the M1 or ACC, corresponds to the BOLD-derived spatial patterns from the same regions. We acknowledge that this spatial variance may differ from the spatial map obtained by multi-site electrophysiology recordings. Nevertheless, numerous studies have consistently reported a high spatial correspondence between BOLD- and electrophysiology-derived RSNs using various methodologies across different physiological states in both humans and animals. For instance, research employing electroencephalography (EEG) or electrocorticography (ECoG) in humans demonstrates that RSNs derived from the power of multiple-site electrophysiological signals exhibit similar spatial patterns to classic BOLD-derived RSNs such as the default-mode network (Hacker et al., 2017; Kucyi et al., 2018). These studies well agree with our findings. Notably, the reference paper cited by the reviewer studies brain-wide changes during transitions between awake and various sleep stages, which is quite different from the brain states examined in our study.

      Major method problem:

      Comment 4: Correlating LFP to fMRI is correlating two biological signals, with unknown but presumably not uniform distributions. However, correlating CC results from correlation maps is comparing uniform distributions. This is not a fair comparison, especially considering that the noise added is also uniform as it was created with the rand() function in MATLAB.

      This is a good point. We examined the distributions of both LFP powers and fMRI signals. They both seem to follow a normal distribution. Below shows distributions of the two signals from a random scan. In addition, z transformation prior to comparison generated the same results (Fig. S14).

      Author response image 1.

      Exemplar distributions of A) the fMRI signal of M1, and B) HRF-convolved LFP power in M1.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Comment 1: In the Discussion, a few more calcium imaging papers could be fruitfully discussed (e.g. Ma et al Resting-state hemodynamics are spatiotemporally coupled to synchronized and symmetric neural activity in excitatory neurons, PNAS 2016, or more recently Vafaii et al, Multimodal measures of spontaneous brain activity reveal both common and divergent patterns of cortical functional organization, Nat Comms 2024).

      We appreciate this suggestion. We have added the following discussions to the revised manuscript: 

      “These findings indicate the temporal information provided by gamma power can only explain a minor portion (approximately 35%) of the temporal variance in the BOLD time series, even after accounting for the noise effect, which is in line with the reported correlation value between the cerebral blood volume and fluctuations in GCaMP signal in head-fixed mice during periods of immobility (R = 0.63) (Ma et al., 2016).” 

      “It is plausible that employing different features or comparison methods could yield a stronger BOLD-electrophysiology temporal relationship (Ma et al., 2016).”

      “Furthermore, in a more recent study by Vafaii and colleagues, overlapping cortical networks were identified using both fMRI and calcium imaging modalities, suggesting that networks observable in fMRI studies exhibit corresponding neural activity spatial patterns (Vafaii et al., 2024).” 

      “Furthermore, Vafaii et. al. revealed notable differences in functional connectivity strength measured by fMRI and calcium imaging, despite an overlapping spatial pattern of cortical networks identified by both modalities (Vafaii et al., 2024).”

      Comment 2: Similarly when discussing the "invisible" populations, perhaps Uhlirova et al eLife 2016 should be mentioned as some types of inhibitory processes may also be less clearly observed in LFPs but rather strongly contribute to NVC.

      We appreciate the suggestion. We added the following sentences to the revised manuscript. 

      “Additionally, Uhlirova et al. conducted a study where they utilized optogenetic stimulation and two-photon imaging to investigate how the activation of different neuron types affects blood vessels in mice. They discovered that only the activation of inhibitory neurons led to vessel constriction, albeit with a negligible impact on LFP (Uhlirova et al., 2016).”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major problems with writing:

      Comment 1: The authors need to review past work to better place their study in the context of the literature (some review articles: Lurie et al. Netw Neurosci. 2020 Feb 1;4(1):30-69. & Thompson et al. Neuroimage. 2018 Oct 15;180(Pt B):448-462.)

      Here are some LFP and BOLD "resting state" papers focused on dynamic changes.

      Many of these papers examine both spatial and temporal extents of correlations. Several of these papers use similar methods to the reviewed paper.

      Also, many of these papers dispute the claim that correlations seen are

      "electrophysiology invisible signal." Note that I am NOT saying that "electrophysiology invisible" correlations do not exist (it seems very likely some DO exist). However, the authors did not show that in the reviewed paper, and some of the correlations which they call an "electrophysiology invisible signal" probably would be visible if analyzed in a different manner.

      Quite a few literature studies that the reviewer suggested were already included in the original manuscript. We have also added more literature studies to the revised manuscript. Again, we would like to emphasize that the novelty of our study centers on the discovery of the disparity in temporal and spatial relationships between resting-state electrophysiological and fMRI signals. See below our responses to individual literature studies listed.

      In humans:

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38082179/ Predicts by using models the paper under review does not use here.

      The following discussion was added to the revised manuscript: 

      “Some other comparison methods such as rank correlation and transformation prior to comparison were also tested and results remain persistent (Fig. S14). These findings align with the notion that, compared to nonlinear models, linear models offer superior predictive value for the rsfMRI signal using LFP data, as comprehensively illustrated in (Nozari et al., 2024) (also see Fig. S7). Importantly, in this study, the predictive powers (represented by R2) of various comparison methods tested all remain below 0.5 (Nozari et al., 2024), suggesting that while certain models may enhance the temporal relationship between LFP and BOLD signals, the improvement is likely modest.”

      In nonhuman primates: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34923136/ Most of the variance that could be creating resting state networks is in the <1 Hz band which the paper under review did not study

      ]We also examined infraslow LFP activity (< 1Hz) in our data. Consistent with the finding in the reference paper (Li et al., 2022), infraslow LFP power and the BOLD signal can derive consistent RSN spatial patterns (for M1, spatial correlation = 0.70), while the temporal correlation remains very low (temporal correlation = 0.08). These results and the reference paper were added to the revised manuscript.

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28461461/ Compares actual spread of LFP vs. spread of BOLD instead of just correlation between LFP and BOLD.

      The following sentence has been added to the revised manuscript.

      “This high spatial correspondence between rsfMRI and LFP signals can even be found at the columnar level (Shi et al., 2017).”   

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24048850/ Comparison of small (from LFP) to large (from BOLD) spatial correlations in the context of temporal correlations.

      In this study, researchers compared neurophysiological maps and fMRI maps of the inferior temporal cortex in macaques in response to visual images. They observed that the spatial correlation increased as the neurophysiological maps got greater levels of spatial smoothing. This suggests that fMRI can capture large-scale spatial information, but it may be limited in capturing fine details. Although interesting, this paper did not study the electrophysiology-fMRI relationship at the resting state and hence is not very relevant to our study.

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20439733/ Electrophysiology from a single site can correlate across nearly the entire cerebral cortex.

      We have included the discussion of this paper in the original manuscript.

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18465799/ The original dynamic BOLD and LFP work from 2008 by Shmuel and Leopold included spatiotemporal dynamics.

      We have included the discussion of this paper in the original manuscript.

      In rodents:

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34296178/ Better electrophysiological correspondence was found using alternate methods the paper under review does not use.

      This study investigates the electrophysiological correspondence in taskbased fMRI, while our study focused on resting state signals.

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31785420/ Electrophysiological basis of co-activation patterns, similar comparisons to the paper under review.

      We have included the discussion of this paper in the original manuscript.

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29161352/ Cross-frequency coupling of LFP modulating the BOLD, perhaps more so than raw amplitudes.

      This paper investigated the impact of AMPA microinjections in the VTA and found reduced ventral striatal functional connectivity, correlation between the delta band and BOLD signal, and phase–amplitude coupling of low-frequency LFP and highfrequency LFP, suggesting changes in low-frequency LFP might modulate the BOLD signal.

      Consistent with our study, we also found that low-frequency LFP is negatively coupled with the BOLD signal, but we did not investigate changes in neurovascular coupling with disturbed neural activity using pharmacological methods, and hence, we did not discuss this paper in our study.

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24071524/ This paper did the same kind of tests comparing LFP-BOLD correlations to BOLD-BOLD correlations as the paper under review.

      This study examined the neural mechanism underpinning dynamic restingstate fMRI, revealing a spatiotemporal coupling of infra-slow neural activity with a quasiperiodic pattern (QPP). While our current investigation centered on stationary restingstate functional connectivity, we acknowledge that dynamic analysis will provide additional value for investigating the relationship between LFP and rsfMRI signals. This warrants more investigation in a future study. This point has been added to the revised manuscript.

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24904325/ This paper found that different frequencies of electrophysiology (including ones not studied in the reviewed paper) contribute independently to the BOLD signal

      This paper identified phase-amplitude coupling in rats anesthetized with isoflurane but not with dexmedetomidine, indicating that this coupling arises from a special type of neural activity pattern, burst-suppression, which was probably induced by high-dose isoflurane. They conjectured that high and low-frequency neural activities may independently or differentially influence the BOLD signal. Our study also examined the influence of various LFP frequency bands on the BOLD signal and found inversed LFP-BOLD relationship between low- and high-frequency LFP powers. We also added more results on the analysis of infraslow LFP signals. Regardless, since the reference study did not examine the spatial relationship of LFP and BOLD activities, we cannot comment on how it may provide insight into our results. 

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26041826/ This paper found electrophysiological correlates within the BOLD signal when using BOLD analysis methods not used in the reviewed paper, and furthermore that some of these correlate with electrophysiological frequencies not studied in the reviewed paper (< 1 Hz).

      We have added more results on the analysis of infraslow LFP signals and acknowledged the value of dynamic rsfMRI analysis in studies of BOLDelectrophysiology relationship.

      I am not saying the authors need to use all these methods or even cite these papers. As I stated in their review, they merely need to (1) cite some of the most relevant for the proper context, the above list can maybe help (2) remove the claim of an "electrophysiology invisible signal" (3) use terms more commonly used in these papers for the extent of correlation with the electrode, other than "spatial variance."

      We thank the reviewer again for providing a detailed list of reference studies. We have added the related discussion to the revised manuscript as described above.

      Comment 2: The abstract entirely and much of the rest of the paper should be rewritten to be more reasonable. The authors would do well to review some of the past controversies in this area, e.g. Magri et al. J Neurosci. 2012 Jan 25;32(4):1395-407.

      We have made significant revision to improve the writing of the paper. The reference paper has been added to the revised manuscript.

      Comment 3: This should be re-written and the terminology used here should be chosen more carefully.

      The writing of the manuscript has been improved with more careful choice of terminology.    

      Major method problem:

      Comment 4: At a minimum, the authors should be transforming the uniform distribution of CC results to Z or T values and using randn() instead of rand() in MATLAB.

      Below is the figure illustrating the simulation results by transforming CC values to Z score. Results obtained remain consistent.

      Author response image 2.

      Minor problems:

      Comment 5: "MR-510 compatible electrodes (MRCM16LP, NeuroNexus Inc)"

      Details of this type of electrode are not readily available. But for studies like this one, further information on materials is critical as this determines the frequency coverage, which is not even across all LFP frequencies for all materials. Most commercially prepared electrodes cannot record <1Hz accurately, and this study includes at least 0.11Hz in some of its analysis.

      The type of electrode used in our current study is a silicon-based micromachined probe. These probes are fabricated using photolithographic techniques to pattern thin layers of conductive materials onto a silicon substrate. This probe is capable of recording the LFP activity within a broad frequency range, starting from 0.1Hz . We added this information to the revised manuscript. 

      Comment 6: Grounding to the cerebellum in theory would remove global conduction from the LFP but also global signal regression is done to the fMRI. Does the LFP-rsfMRI correlation change due to the regression or does only the rsfMRI-rsfMRI correlation change?

      The results obtained with global signal regression were consistent with those obtained without it (see Figs. S4-S5), and therefore, we do not believe our results are affected by this preprocessing step. 

      Comment 7. Avoid colloquial language like "on the other hand" etc.

      We used more appropriate language in the revised manuscript.

      References:

      Bolt, T., Nomi, J.S., Bzdok, D., Salas, J.A., Chang, C., Thomas Yeo, B.T., Uddin, L.Q., Keilholz, S.D., 2022. A parsimonious description of global functional brain organization in three spatiotemporal patterns. Nat Neurosci 25, 1093-1103.

      Cabral, J., Fernandes, F.F., Shemesh, N., 2023. Intrinsic macroscale oscillatory modes driving long range functional connectivity in female rat brains detected by ultrafast fMRI. Nat Commun 14, 375.

      Hacker, C.D., Snyder, A.Z., Pahwa, M., Corbetta, M., Leuthardt, E.C., 2017. Frequencyspecific electrophysiologic correlates of resting state fMRI networks. Neuroimage 149, 446-457.

      Kucyi, A., Schrouff, J., Bickel, S., Foster, B.L., Shine, J.M., Parvizi, J., 2018. Intracranial Electrophysiology Reveals Reproducible Intrinsic Functional Connectivity within Human Brain Networks. J Neurosci 38, 4230-4242.

      Li, J.M., Acland, B.T., Brenner, A.S., Bentley, W.J., Snyder, L.H., 2022. Relationships between correlated spikes, oxygen and LFP in the resting-state primate. Neuroimage 247, 118728.

      Ma, Y., Shaik, M.A., Kozberg, M.G., Kim, S.H., Portes, J.P., Timerman, D., Hillman, E.M., 2016. Resting-state hemodynamics are spatiotemporally coupled to synchronized and symmetric neural activity in excitatory neurons. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 113, E8463-E8471.

      Ma, Z., Zhang, N., 2018. Temporal transitions of spontaneous brain activity. Elife 7.

      Shi, Z., Wu, R., Yang, P.F., Wang, F., Wu, T.L., Mishra, A., Chen, L.M., Gore, J.C., 2017. High spatial correspondence at a columnar level between activation and resting state fMRI signals and local field potentials. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 114, 52535258.

      Thompson, G.J., Pan, W.J., Magnuson, M.E., Jaeger, D., Keilholz, S.D., 2014. Quasiperiodic patterns (QPP): large-scale dynamics in resting state fMRI that correlate with local infraslow electrical activity. Neuroimage 84, 1018-1031.

      Uhlirova, H., Kilic, K., Tian, P., Thunemann, M., Desjardins, M., Saisan, P.A., Sakadzic, S., Ness, T.V., Mateo, C., Cheng, Q., Weldy, K.L., Razoux, F., Vandenberghe, M.,

      Cremonesi, J.A., Ferri, C.G., Nizar, K., Sridhar, V.B., Steed, T.C., Abashin, M.,

      Fainman, Y., Masliah, E., Djurovic, S., Andreassen, O.A., Silva, G.A., Boas, D.A., Kleinfeld, D., Buxton, R.B., Einevoll, G.T., Dale, A.M., Devor, A., 2016. Cell type specificity of neurovascular coupling in cerebral cortex. Elife 5.

      Vafaii, H., Mandino, F., Desrosiers-Gregoire, G., O'Connor, D., Markicevic, M., Shen, X.,

      Ge, X., Herman, P., Hyder, F., Papademetris, X., Chakravarty, M., Crair, M.C., Constable, R.T., Lake, E.M.R., Pessoa, L., 2024. Multimodal measures of spontaneous brain activity reveal both common and divergent patterns of cortical functional organization. Nat Commun 15, 229.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This important study provides solid evidence that both psychiatric dimensions (e.g. anhedonia, apathy, or depression) and chronotype (i.e., being a morning or evening person) influence effort-based decision-making. Notably, the current study does not elucidate whether there may be interactive effects of chronotype and psychiatric dimensions on decision-making. This work is of importance to researchers and clinicians alike, who may make inferences about behaviour and cognition without taking into account whether the individual may be tested or observed out-of-sync with their phenotype.

      We thank the three reviewers for their comments, and the Editors at eLife. We have taken the opportunity to revise our manuscript considerably from its original form, not least because we feel a number of the reviewers’ suggested analyses strengthen our manuscript considerably (in one instance even clarifying our conclusions, leading us to change our title)—for which we are very appreciative indeed. 

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study uses an online cognitive task to assess how reward and effort are integrated in a motivated decision-making task. In particular the authors were looking to explore how neuropsychiatric symptoms, in particular apathy and anhedonia, and circadian rhythms affect behavior in this task. Amongst many results, they found that choice bias (the degree to which integrated reward and effort affects decisions) is reduced in individuals with greater neuropsychiatric symptoms, and late chronotypes (being an 'evening person').

      Strengths:

      The authors recruited participants to perform the cognitive task both in and out of sync with their chronotypes, allowing for the important insight that individuals with late chronotypes show a more reduced choice bias when tested in the morning.<br /> Overall, this is a well-designed and controlled online experimental study. The modelling approach is robust, with care being taken to both perform and explain to the readers the various tests used to ensure the models allow the authors to sufficiently test their hypotheses.

      Weaknesses:

      This study was not designed to test the interactions of neuropsychiatric symptoms and chronotypes on decision making, and thus can only make preliminary suggestions regarding how symptoms, chronotypes and time-of-assessment interact.

      We appreciate the Reviewer’s positive view of our research and agree with their assessment of its weaknesses; the study was not designed to assess chronotype-mental health interactions. We hope that our new title and contextualisation makes this clearer. We respond in more detail point-by-point below.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The study combines computational modeling of choice behavior with an economic, effort-based decision-making task to assess how willingness to exert physical effort for a reward varies as a function of individual differences in apathy and anhedonia, or depression, as well as chronotype. They find an overall reduction in effort selection that scales with apathy and anhedonia and depression. They also find that later chronotypes are less likely to choose effort than earlier chronotypes and, interestingly, an interaction whereby later chronotypes are especially unwilling to exert effort in the morning versus the evening.

      Strengths:

      This study uses state-of-the-art tools for model fitting and validation and regression methods which rule out multicollinearity among symptom measures and Bayesian methods which estimate effects and uncertainty about those estimates. The replication of results across two different kinds of samples is another strength. Finally, the study provides new information about the effects not only of chronotype but also chronotype by timepoint interactions which are previously unknown in the subfield of effort-based decision-making.

      Weaknesses:

      The study has few weaknesses. One potential concern is that the range of models which were tested was narrow, and other models might have been considered. For example, the Authors might have also tried to fit models with an overall inverse temperature parameter to capture decision noise. One reason for doing so is that some variance in the bias parameter might be attributed to noise, which was not modeled here. Another concern is that the manuscripts discuss effort-based choice as a transdiagnostic feature - and there is evidence in other studies that effort deficits are a transdiagnostic feature of multiple disorders. However, because the present study does not investigate multiple diagnostic categories, it doesn't provide evidence for transdiagnosticity, per se.

      We appreciate Reviewer 2’s assessment of our research and agree generally with its weaknesses. We have now addressed the Reviewer’s comments regarding transdiagnosticity in the discussion of our revised version and have addressed their detailed recommendations below (see point-by-point responses).

      In addition to the below specific changes, in our Discussion section, we now have also added the following (lines 538 – 540):

      “Finally, we would like to note that as our study is based on a general population sample, rather than a clinical one. Hence, we cannot speak to transdiagnosticity on the level of multiple diagnostic categories.”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Mehrhof and Nord study a large dataset of participants collected online (n=958 after exclusions) who performed a simple effort-based choice task. They report that the level of effort and reward influence choices in a way that is expected from prior work. They then relate choice preferences to neuropsychiatric syndromes and, in a smaller sample (n<200), to people's circadian preferences, i.e., whether they are a morning-preferring or evening-preferring chronotype. They find relationships between the choice bias (a model parameter capturing the likelihood to accept effort-reward challenges, like an intercept) and anhedonia and apathy, as well as chronotype. People with higher anhedonia and apathy and an evening chronotype are less likely to accept challenges (more negative choice bias). People with an evening chronotype are also more reward sensitive and more likely to accept challenges in the evening, compared to the morning.

      Strengths:

      This is an interesting and well-written manuscript which replicates some known results and introduces a new consideration related to potential chronotype relationships which have not been explored before. It uses a large sample size and includes analyses related to transdiagnostic as well as diagnostic criteria. I have some suggestions for improvements.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The novel findings in this manuscript are those pertaining to transdiagnostic and circadian phenotypes. The authors report two separate but "overlapping" effects: individuals high on anhedonia/apathy are less willing to accept offers in the task, and similarly, individuals tested off their chronotype are less willing to accept offers in the task. The authors claim that the latter has implications for studying the former. In other words, because individuals high on anhedonia/apathy predominantly have a late chronotype (but might be tested early in the day), they might accept less offers, which could spuriously look like a link between anhedonia/apathy and choices but might in fact be an effect of the interaction between chronotype and time-of-testing. The authors therefore argue that chronotype needs to be accounted for when studying links between depression and effort tasks.

      The authors argue that, if X is associated with Y and Z is associated with Y, X and Z might confound each other. That is possible, but not necessarily true. It would need to be tested explicitly by having X (anhedonia/apathy) and Z (chronotype) in the same regression model. Does the effect of anhedonia/apathy on choices disappear when accounting for chronotype (and time-of-testing)? Similarly, when adding the interaction between anhedonia/apathy, chronotype, and time-of-testing, within the subsample of people tested off their chronotype, is there a residual effect of anhedonia/apathy on choices or not?

      If the effect of anhedonia/apathy disappeared (or got weaker) while accounting for chronotype, this result would suggest that chronotype mediates the effect of anhedonia/apathy on effort choices. However, I am not sure it renders the direct effect of anhedonia/apathy on choices entirely spurious. Late chronotype might be a feature (induced by other symptoms) of depression (such as fatigue and insomnia), and the association between anhedonia/apathy and effort choices might be a true and meaningful one. For example, if the effect of anhedonia/apathy on effort choices was mediated by altered connectivity of the dorsal ACC, we would not say that ACC connectivity renders the link between depression and effort choices "spurious", but we would speak of a mechanism that explains this effect. The authors should discuss in a more nuanced way what a significant mediation by the chronotype/time-of-testing congruency means for interpreting effects of depression in computational psychiatry.

      We thank the Reviewer for pointing out this crucial weakness in the original version of our manuscript. We have now thought deeply about this and agree with the Reviewer that our original results did not warrant our interpretation that reported effects of anhedonia and apathy on measures of effort-based decision-making could potentially be spurious. At the Reviewer’s suggestion, we decided to test this explicitly in our revised version—a decision that has now deepened our understanding of our results, and changed our interpretation thereof.  

      To investigate how the effects of neuropsychiatric symptoms and the effects of circadian measures relate to each other, we have followed the Reviewer’s advice and conducted an additional series of analyses (see below). Surprisingly (to us, but perhaps not the Reviewer) we discovered that all three symptom measures (two of anhedonia, one of apathy) have separable effects from circadian measures on the decision to expend effort (note we have also re-named our key parameter ‘motivational tendency’ to address this Reviewer’s next comment that the term ‘choice bias’ was unclear). In model comparisons (based on leave-one-out information criterion which penalises for model complexity) the models including both circadian and psychiatric measures always win against the models including either circadian or psychiatric measures. In essence, this strengthens our claims about the importance of measuring circadian rhythm in effort-based tasks generally, as circadian rhythm clearly plays an important role even when considering neuropsychiatric symptoms, but crucially does not support the idea of spurious effects: statistically, circadian measures contributes separably from neuropsychiatric symptoms to the variance in effort-based decision-making. We think this is very interesting indeed, and certainly clarifies (and corrects the inaccuracy in) our original interpretation—and can only express our thanks to the Reviewer for helping us understand our effect more fully.

      In response to these new insights, we have made numerous edits to our manuscript. First, we changed the title from “Overlapping effects of neuropsychiatric symptoms and circadian rhythm on effort-based decision-making” to “Both neuropsychiatric symptoms and circadian rhythm alter effort-based decision-making”. In the remaining manuscript we now refrain from using the word ‘overlapping’ (which could be interpreted as overlapping in explained variance), and instead opted to describe the effects as parallel. We hope our new analyses, title, and clarified/improved interpretations together address the Reviewer’s valid concern about our manuscript’s main weakness.

      We detail these new analyses in the Methods section as follows (lines 800 – 814):

      “4.5.2. Differentiating between the effects of neuropsychiatric symptoms and circadian measures on motivational tendency

      To investigate how the effects of neuropsychiatric symptoms on motivational tendency (2.3.1) relate to effects of chronotype and time-of-day on motivational tendency we conducted exploratory analyses. In the subsamples of participants with an early or late chronotype (including additionally collected data), we first ran Bayesian GLMs with neuropsychiatric questionnaire scores (SHAPS, DARS, AES respectively) predicting motivational tendency, controlling for age and gender. We next added an interaction term of chronotype and time-of-day into the GLMs, testing how this changes previously observed neuropsychiatric and circadian effects on motivational tendency. Finally, we conducted a model comparison using LOO, comparing between motivational tendency predicted by a neuropsychiatric questionnaire, motivational tendency predicted by chronotype and time-of-day, and motivational tendency predicted by a neuropsychiatric questionnaire and time-of-day (for each neuropsychiatric questionnaire, and controlling for age and gender).”

      Results of the outlined analyses are reported in the results section as follows (lines 356 – 383):

      “2.5.2.1 Neuropsychiatric symptoms and circadian measures have separable effects on motivational tendency

      Exploratory analyses testing for the effects of neuropsychiatric questionnaires on motivational tendency in the subsamples of early and late chronotypes confirmed the predictive value of the SHAPS (M=-0.24, 95% HDI=[-0.42,-0.06]), the DARS (M=-0.16, 95% HDI=[-0.31,-0.01]), and the AES (M=-0.18, 95% HDI=[-0.32,-0.02]) on motivational tendency.

      For the SHAPS, we find that when adding the measures of chronotype and time-of-day back into the GLMs, the main effect of the SHAPS (M=-0.26, 95% HDI=[-0.43,-0.07]), the main effect of chronotype (M=-0.11, 95% HDI=[-0.22,-0.01]), and the interaction effect of chronotype and time-of-day (M=0.20, 95% HDI=[0.07,0.34]) on motivational tendency remain. Model comparison by LOOIC reveals motivational tendency is best predicted by the model including the SHAPS, chronotype and time-of-day as predictors, followed by the model including only the SHAPS. Note that this approach to model comparison penalizes models for increasing complexity.

      Repeating these steps with the DARS, the main effect of the DARS is found numerically, but the 95% HDI just includes 0 (M=-0.15, 95% HDI=[-0.30,0.002]). The main effect of chronotype (M=-0.11, 95% HDI=[-0.21,-0.01]), and the interaction effect of chronotype and time-of-day (M=0.18, 95% HDI=[0.05,0.33]) on motivational tendency remain. Model comparison identifies the model including the DARS and circadian measures as the best model, followed by the model including only the DARS.

      For the AES, the main effect of the AES is found (M=-0.19, 95% HDI=[-0.35,-0.04]). For the main effect of chronotype, the 95% narrowly includes 0 (M=-0.10, 95% HDI=[-0.21,0.002]), while the interaction effect of chronotype and time-of-day (M=0.20, 95% HDI=[0.07,0.34]) on motivational tendency remains. Model comparison identifies the model including the AES and circadian measures as the best model, followed by the model including only the AES.”

      We have now edited parts of our Discussion to discuss and reflect these new insights, including the following.

      Lines 399 – 402:

      “Various neuropsychiatric disorders are marked by disruptions in circadian rhythm, such as a late chronotype. However, research has rarely investigated how transdiagnostic mechanisms underlying neuropsychiatric conditions may relate to inter-individual differences in circadian rhythm.”

      Lines 475 – 480:

      “It is striking that the effects of neuropsychiatric symptoms on effort-based decision-making largely are paralleled by circadian effects on the same neurocomputational parameter. Exploratory analyses predicting motivational tendency by neuropsychiatric symptoms and circadian measures simultaneously indicate the effects go beyond recapitulating each other, but rather explain separable parts of the variance in motivational tendency.”

      Lines 528 – 532:

      “Our reported analyses investigating neuropsychiatric and circadian effects on effort-based decision-making simultaneously are exploratory, as our study design was not ideally set out to examine this. Further work is needed to disentangle separable effects of neuropsychiatric and circadian measures on effort-based decision-making.”

      Lines 543 – 550:

      “We demonstrate that neuropsychiatric effects on effort-based decision-making are paralleled by effects of circadian rhythm and time-of-day. Exploratory analyses suggest these effects account for separable parts of the variance in effort-based decision-making. It unlikely that effects of neuropsychiatric effects on effort-based decision-making reported here and in previous literature are a spurious result due to multicollinearity with chronotype. Yet, not accounting for chronotype and time of testing, which is the predominant practice in the field, could affect results.”

      (2) It seems that all key results relate to the choice bias in the model (as opposed to reward or effort sensitivity). It would therefore be helpful to understand what fundamental process the choice bias is really capturing in this task. This is not discussed, and the direction of effects is not discussed either, but potentially quite important. It seems that the choice bias captures how many effortful reward challenges are accepted overall which maybe captures general motivation or task engagement. Maybe it is then quite expected that this could be linked with questionnaires measuring general motivation/pleasure/task engagement. Formally, the choice bias is the constant term or intercept in the model for p(accept), but the authors never comment on what its sign means. If I'm not mistaken, people with higher anhedonia but also higher apathy are less likely to accept challenges and thus engage in the task (more negative choice bias). I could not find any discussion or even mention of what these results mean. This similarly pertains to the results on chronotype. In general, "choice bias" may not be the most intuitive term and the authors may want to consider renaming it. Also, given the sign of what the choice bias means could be flipped with a simple sign flip in the model equation (i.e., equating to accepting more vs accepting less offers), it would be helpful to show some basic plots to illustrate the identified differences (e.g., plotting the % accepted for people in the upper and lower tertile for the SHAPS score etc).

      We apologise that this was not made clear previously: the meaning and directionality of “choice bias” is indeed central to our results. We also thank the Reviewer for pointing out the previousely-used term “choice bias” itself might not be intuitive. We have now changed this to ‘motivational tendency’ (see below) as well as added substantial details on this parameter to the manuscript, including additional explanations and visualisations of the model as suggested by the Reviewer (new Figure 3) and model-agnostic results to aid interpretation (new Figure S3). Note the latter is complex due to our staircasing procedure (see new figure panel D further detailing our staircasing procedure in Figure 2). This shows that participants with more pronounced anhedonia are less likely to accept offers than those with low anhedonia (Fig. S3A), a model-agnostic version of our central result.

      Our changes are detailed below:

      After careful evaluation we have decided to term the parameter “motivational tendency”, hoping that this will present a more intuitive description of the parameter.

      To aid with the understanding and interpretation of the model parameters, and motivational tendency in particular, we have added the following explanation to the main text:

      Lines 149 – 155:

      “The models posit efforts and rewards are joined into a subjective value (SV), weighed by individual effort (and reward sensitivity (parameters. The subjective value is then integrated with an individual motivational tendency (a) parameter to guide decision-making. Specifically, the motivational tendency parameter determines the range at which subjective values are translated to acceptance probabilities: the same subjective value will translate to a higher acceptance probability the higher the motivational tendency.”

      Further, we have included a new figure, visualizing the model. This demonstrates how the different model parameters contribute to the model (A), and how different values on each parameter affects the model (B-D).

      We agree that plotting model agnostic effects in our data may help the reader gain intuition of what our task results mean. We hope to address this with our added section on “Model agnostic task measures relating to questionnaires”. We first followed the reviewer’s suggestion of extracting subsamples with higher and low anhedonia (as measured with the SHAPS, highest and lowest quantile) and plotted the acceptance proportion across effort and reward levels (panel A in figure below). However, due to our implemented task design, this only shows part of the picture: the staircasing procedure individualises which effort-reward combination a participant is presented with. Therefore, group differences in choice behaviour will lead to differences in the development of the staircases implemented in our task. Thus, we plotted the count of offered effort-reward combinations for the subsamples of participants with high vs. low SHAPS scores by the end of the task, averaged across staircases and participants.

      As the aspect of task development due to the implemented staircasing may not have been explained sufficiently in the main text, we have included panel (D) in figure 2.

      Further, we have added the following figure reference to the main text (lines 189 – 193):

      “The development of offered effort and reward levels across trials is shown in figure 2D; this shows that as participants generally tend to accept challenges rather than reject them, the implemented staircasing procedure develops toward higher effort and lover reward challenges.”

      To statistically test effects of model-agnostic task measures on the neuropsychiatric questionnaires, we performed Bayesian GLMs with the proportion of accepted trials predicted by SHAPS and AES. This is reported in the text as follows.

      Supplement, lines 172 – 189:

      “To explore the relationship between model agnostic task measures to questionnaire measures of neuropsychiatric symptoms, we conducted Bayesian GLMs, with the proportion of accepted trials predicted by SHAPS scores, controlling for age and gender. The proportion of accepted trials averaged across effort and reward levels was predicted by the Snaith-Hamilton Pleasure Scale (SHAPS) sum scores (M=-0.07; 95%HDI=[-0.12,-0.03]) and the Apathy Evaluation Scale (AES) sum scores (M=-0.05; 95%HDI=[-0.10,-0.002]). Note that this was not driven only by higher effort levels; even confining data to the lowest two effort levels, SHAPS has a predictive value for the proportion of accepted trials: M=-0.05; 95%HDI=[-0.07,-0.02].<br /> A visualisation of model agnostic task measures relating to symptoms is given in Fig. S4, comparing subgroups of participants scoring in the highest and lowest quartile on the SHAPS. This shows that participants with a high SHAPS score (i.e., more pronounced anhedonia) are less likely to accept offers than those with a low SHAPS score (Fig. S4A). Due to the implemented staircasing procedure, group differences can also be seen in the effort-reward combinations offered per trial. While for both groups, the staircasing procedure seems to devolve towards high effort – low reward offers, this is more pronounced in the subgroup of participants with a lower SHAPS score (Fig S4B).”

      (3) None of the key effects relate to effort or reward sensitivity which is somewhat surprising given the previous literature and also means that it is hard to know if choice bias results would be equally found in tasks without any effort component. (The only analysis related to effort sensitivity is exploratory and in a subsample of N=56 per group looking at people meeting criteria for MDD vs matched controls.) Were stimuli constructed such that effort and reward sensitivity could be separated (i.e., are uncorrelated/orthogonal)? Maybe it would be worth looking at the % accepted in the largest or two largest effort value bins in an exploratory analysis. It seems the lowest and 2nd lowest effort level generally lead to accepting the challenge pretty much all the time, so including those effort levels might not be sensitive to individual difference analyses?

      We too were initially surprised by the lack of effect of neuropsychiatric symptoms on reward and effort sensitivity. To address the Reviewer’s first comment, the nature of the ‘choice bias’ parameter (now motivational tendency) is its critical importance in the context of effort-based decision-making: it is not modelled or measured explicitly in tasks without effort (such as typical reward tasks), so it would be impossible to test this in tasks without an effort component. 

      For the Reviewer’s second comment, the exploratory MDD analysis is not our only one related to effort sensitivity: the effort sensitivity parameter is included in all of our central analyses, and (like reward sensitivity), does not relate to our measured neuropsychiatric symptoms (e.g., see page 15). Note most previous effort tasks do not include a ‘choice bias’/motivational tendency parameter, potentially explaining this discrepancy. However, our model was quantitatively superior to models without this parameter, for example with only effort- and reward-sensitivity (page 11, Fig. 3).

      Our three model parameters (reward sensitivity, effort sensitivity, and choice bias/motivational tendency) were indeed uncorrelated/orthogonal to one another (see parameter orthogonality analyses below), making it unlikely that the variance and effect captured by our motivational tendency parameter (previously termed “choice bias”) should really be attributed to reward sensitivity. As per the Reviewer’s suggestion, we also examined whether the lowest two effort levels might not be sensitive to individual differences; in fact, we found out proportion of accepted trials on the lowest effort levels alone was nevertheless predicted by anhedonia (see ceiling effect analyses below).

      Specifically, in terms of parameter orthogonality:

      When developing our task design and computational modelling approach we were careful to ensure that meaningful neurocomputational parameters could be estimated and that no spurious correlations between parameters would be introduced by modelling. By conducting parameter recoveries for all models, we showed that our modelling approach could reliably estimate parameters, and that estimated parameters are orthogonal to the other underlying parameters (as can be seen in Figure S1 in the supplement). It is thus unlikely that the variance and effect captured by our motivational tendency parameter (previously termed “choice bias”) should really be attributed to reward sensitivity.

      And finally, regarding the possibility of a ceiling effect for low effort levels:

      We agree that visual inspection of the proportion of accepted results across effort and reward values can lead to the belief that a ceiling effect prevents the two lowest effort levels from capturing any inter-individual differences. To test whether this is the case, we ran a Bayesian GLM with the SHAPS sum score predicting the proportion of accepted trials (controlling for age and gender), in a subset of the data including only trials with an effort level of 1 or 2. We found the SHAPS has a predictive value for the proportion of accepted trials in the lowest two effort levels: M=-0.05; 95%HDI=[-0.07,-0.02]). This is noted in the text as follows.

      Supplement, lines 175 – 180:

      “The proportion of accepted trials averaged across effort and reward levels was predicted by the Snaith-Hamilton Pleasure Scale (SHAPS) sum scores (M=-0.07; 95%HDI=[-0.12,-0.03]) and the Apathy Evaluation Scale (AES) sum scores (M=-0.05; 95%HDI=[-0.10,-0.002]). Note that this was not driven only by higher effort levels; even confining data to the lowest two effort levels, SHAPS has a predictive value for the proportion of accepted trials: M=-0.05; 95%HDI=[-0.07,-0.02].”

      (4) The abstract and discussion seem overstated (implications for the school system and statements on circadian rhythms which were not measured here). They should be toned down to reflect conclusions supported by the data.

      We thank the Reviewer for pointing this out, and have now removed these claims from the abstract and Discussion; we hope they now better reflect conclusions supported by these data directly.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Suggestions for improved or additional experiments, data or analyses.

      - For a non-computational audience, it would be useful to unpack the influence of the choice bias on behavior, as it is less clear how this would affect decision-making than sensitivity to effort or reward. Perhaps a figure showing accept/reject decisions when sensitivities are held and choice bias is high would be beneficial.

      We thank the Reviewer for suggesting additional explanations of the choice bias parameter to aid interpretation for non-computational readers; as per the Reviewer’s suggestion, we have now included additional explanations and visualisations (Figure 3) to make this as clear as possible. Please note also that, in response to one of the other Reviewers and after careful considerations, we have decided to rename the “choice bias” parameter to “motivational tendency”, hoping this will prove more intuitive.

      To aid with the understanding and interpretation of this and the other model parameters, we have added the following explanation to the main text.

      Lines 149 – 155:

      “The models posit efforts and rewards are joined into a subjective value (SV), weighed by individual effort (and reward sensitivity (parameters. The subjective value is then integrated with an individual motivational tendency (a) parameter to guide decision-making. Specifically, the motivational tendency parameter determines the range at which subjective values are translated to acceptance probabilities: the same subjective value will translate to a higher acceptance probability the higher the motivational tendency.”

      Additionally, we add the following explanation to the Methods section.

      Lines 698 – 709:

      First, a cost function transforms costs and rewards associated with an action into a subjective value (SV):

      with and for reward and effort sensitivity, and ℛ and 𝐸 for reward and effort. Higher effort and reward sensitivity mean the SV is more strongly influenced by changes in effort and reward, respectively (Fig. 3B-C). Hence, low effort and reward sensitivity mean the SV, and with that decision-making, is less guided by effort and reward offers, as would be in random decision-making.

      This SV is then transformed to an acceptance probability by a softmax function:

      with for the predicted acceptance probability and 𝛼 for the intercept representing motivational tendency. A high motivational tendency means a subjects has a tendency, or bias, to accept rather than reject offers (Fig. 3D).

      Our new figure (panels A-D in figure 3) visualizes the model. This demonstrates how the different model parameters come at play in the model (A), and how different values on each parameter affects the model (B-D).

      - The early and late chronotype groups have significant differences in ages and gender. Additional supplementary analysis here may mitigate any concerns from readers.

      The Reviewer is right to notice that our subsamples of early and late chronotypes differ significantly in age and gender, but it important to note that all our analyses comparing these two groups take this into account, statistically controlling for age and gender. We regret that this was previously only mentioned in the Methods section, so this information was not accessible where most relevant. To remedy this, we have amended the Results section as follows.

      Lines 317 – 323:

      “Bayesian GLMs, controlling for age and gender, predicting task parameters by time-of-day and chronotype showed effects of chronotype on reward sensitivity (i.e. those with a late chronotype had a higher reward sensitivity; M= 0.325, 95% HDI=[0.19,0.46]) and motivational tendency (higher in early chronotypes; M=-0.248, 95% HDI=[-0.37,-0.11]), as well as an interaction between chronotype and time-of-day on motivational tendency (M=0.309, 95% HDI=[0.15,0.48]).”

      (2) Recommendations for improving the writing and presentation.

      - I found the term 'overlapping' a little jarring. I think the authors use it to mean both neuropsychiatric symptoms and chronotypes affect task parameters, but they are are not tested to be 'separable', nor is an interaction tested. Perhaps being upfront about how interactions are not being tested here (in the introduction, and not waiting until the discussion) would give an opportunity to operationalize this term.

      We agree with the Reviewer that our previously-used term “overlapping” was not ideal: it may have been misleading, and was not necessarily reflective of the nature of our findings. We now state explicitly that we are not testing an interaction between neuropsychiatric symptoms and chronotypes in our primary analyses. Additionally, following suggestions made by Reviewer 3, we ran new exploratory analyses to investigate how the effects of neuropsychiatric symptoms and circadian measures on motivational tendency relate to one another. These results in fact show that all three symptom measures have separable effects from circadian measures on motivational tendency. This supports the Reviewer’s view that ‘overlapping’ was entirely the wrong word—although it nevertheless shows the important contribution of circadian rhythm as well as neuropsychiatric symptoms in effort-based decision-making. We have changed the manuscript throughout to better describe this important, more accurate interpretation of our findings, including replacing the term “overlapping”. We changed the title from “Overlapping effects of neuropsychiatric symptoms and circadian rhythm on effort-based decision-making” to “Both neuropsychiatric symptoms and circadian rhythm alter effort-based decision-making”.

      To clarify the intention of our primary analyses, we have added the following to the last paragraph of the introduction.

      Lines 107 – 112:

      “Next, we pre-registered a follow-up experiment to directly investigate how circadian preference interacts with time-of-day on motivational decision-making, using the same task and computational modelling approach. While this allows us to test how circadian effects on motivational decision-making compare to neuropsychiatric effects, we do not test for possible interactions between neuropsychiatric symptoms and chronobiology.”

      We detail our new analyses in the Methods section as follows.

      Lines 800 – 814:

      “4.5.2 Differentiating between the effects of neuropsychiatric symptoms and circadian measures on motivational tendency

      To investigate how the effects of neuropsychiatric symptoms on motivational tendency (2.3.1) relate to effects of chronotype and time-of-day on motivational tendency we conducted exploratory analyses. In the subsamples of participants with an early or late chronotype (including additionally collected data), we first ran Bayesian GLMs with neuropsychiatric questionnaire scores (SHAPS, DARS, AES respectively) predicting motivational tendency, controlling for age and gender. We next added an interaction term of chronotype and time-of-day into the GLMs, testing how this changes previously observed neuropsychiatric and circadian effects on motivational tendency. Finally, we conducted a model comparison using LOO, comparing between motivational tendency predicted by a neuropsychiatric questionnaire, motivational tendency predicted by chronotype and time-of-day, and motivational tendency predicted by a neuropsychiatric questionnaire and time-of-day (for each neuropsychiatric questionnaire, and controlling for age and gender).”

      Results of the outlined analyses are reported in the Results section as follows.

      Lines 356 – 383:

      “2.5.2.1 Neuropsychiatric symptoms and circadian measures have separable effects on motivational tendency

      Exploratory analyses testing for the effects of neuropsychiatric questionnaires on motivational tendency in the subsamples of early and late chronotypes confirmed the predictive value of the SHAPS (M=-0.24, 95% HDI=[-0.42,-0.06]), the DARS (M=-0.16, 95% HDI=[-0.31,-0.01]), and the AES (M=-0.18, 95% HDI=[-0.32,-0.02]) on motivational tendency.

      For the SHAPS, we find that when adding the measures of chronotype and time-of-day back into the GLMs, the main effect of the SHAPS (M=-0.26, 95% HDI=[-0.43,-0.07]), the main effect of chronotype (M=-0.11, 95% HDI=[-0.22,-0.01]), and the interaction effect of chronotype and time-of-day (M=0.20, 95% HDI=[0.07,0.34]) on motivational tendency remain. Model comparison by LOOIC reveals motivational tendency is best predicted by the model including the SHAPS, chronotype and time-of-day as predictors, followed by the model including only the SHAPS. Note that this approach to model comparison penalizes models for increasing complexity.

      Repeating these steps with the DARS, the main effect of the DARS is found numerically, but the 95% HDI just includes 0 (M=-0.15, 95% HDI=[-0.30,0.002]). The main effect of chronotype (M=-0.11, 95% HDI=[-0.21,-0.01]), and the interaction effect of chronotype and time-of-day (M=0.18, 95% HDI=[0.05,0.33]) on motivational tendency remain. Model comparison identifies the model including the DARS and circadian measures as the best model, followed by the model including only the DARS.

      For the AES, the main effect of the AES is found (M=-0.19, 95% HDI=[-0.35,-0.04]). For the main effect of chronotype, the 95% narrowly includes 0 (M=-0.10, 95% HDI=[-0.21,0.002]), while the interaction effect of chronotype and time-of-day (M=0.20, 95% HDI=[0.07,0.34]) on motivational tendency remains. Model comparison identifies the model including the AES and circadian measures as the best model, followed by the model including only the AES.”

      In addition to the title change, we edited our Discussion to discuss and reflect these new insights, including the following.

      Lines 399 – 402:

      “Various neuropsychiatric disorders are marked by disruptions in circadian rhythm, such as a late chronotype. However, research has rarely investigated how transdiagnostic mechanisms underlying neuropsychiatric conditions may relate to inter-individual differences in circadian rhythm.”

      Lines 475 – 480:

      “It is striking that the effects of neuropsychiatric symptoms on effort-based decision-making largely are paralleled by circadian effects on the same neurocomputational parameter. Exploratory analyses predicting motivational tendency by neuropsychiatric symptoms and circadian measures simultaneously indicate the effects go beyond recapitulating each other, but rather explain separable parts of the variance in motivational tendency.”

      Lines 528 – 532:

      “Our reported analyses investigating neuropsychiatric and circadian effects on effort-based decision-making simultaneously are exploratory, as our study design was not ideally set out to examine this. Further work is needed to disentangle separable effects of neuropsychiatric and circadian measures on effort-based decision-making.”

      Lines 543 – 550:

      “We demonstrate that neuropsychiatric effects on effort-based decision-making are paralleled by effects of circadian rhythm and time-of-day. Exploratory analyses suggest these effects account for separable parts of the variance in effort-based decision-making. It unlikely that effects of neuropsychiatric effects on effort-based decision-making reported here and in previous literature are a spurious result due to multicollinearity with chronotype. Yet, not accounting for chronotype and time of testing, which is the predominant practice in the field, could affect results.”

      - A minor point, but it could be made clearer that many neurotransmitters have circadian rhythms (and not just dopamine).

      We agree this should have been made clearer, and have added the following to the Introduction.

      Lines 83 – 84:

      “Bi-directional links between chronobiology and several neurotransmitter systems have been reported, including dopamine47.

      (47) Kiehn, J.-T., Faltraco, F., Palm, D., Thome, J. & Oster, H. Circadian Clocks in the Regulation of Neurotransmitter Systems. Pharmacopsychiatry 56, 108–117 (2023).”

      - Making reference to other studies which have explored circadian rhythms in cognitive tasks would allow interested readers to explore the broader field. One such paper is: Bedder, R. L., Vaghi, M. M., Dolan, R. J., & Rutledge, R. B. (2023). Risk taking for potential losses but not gains increases with time of day. Scientific reports, 13(1), 5534, which also includes references to other similar studies in the discussion.

      We thank the Reviewer for pointing out that we failed to cite this relevant work. We have now included it in the Introduction as follows.

      Lines 97 – 98:

      “A circadian effect on decision-making under risk is reported, with the sensitivity to losses decreasing with time-of-day66.

      (66) Bedder, R. L., Vaghi, M. M., Dolan, R. J. & Rutledge, R. B. Risk taking for potential losses but not gains increases with time of day. Sci Rep 13, 5534 (2023).”

      (3) Minor corrections to the text and figures.

      None, clearly written and structured. Figures are high quality and significantly aid understanding.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I did have a few more minor comments:

      - The manuscript doesn't clarify whether trials had time limits - so that participants might fail to earn points - or instead they did not and participants had to continue exerting effort until they were done. This is important to know since it impacts on decision-strategies and behavioral outcomes that might be analyzed. For example, if there is no time limit, it might be useful to examine the amount of time it took participants to complete their effort - and whether that had any relationship to choice patterns or symptomatology. Or, if they did, it might be interesting to test whether the relationship between choices and exerted effort depended on symptoms. For example, someone with depression might be less willing to choose effort, but just as, if not more likely to successfully complete a trial once it is selected.

      We thank the Reviewer for pointing out this important detail in the task design, which we should have made clearer. The trials did indeed have a time limit which was dependent on the effort level. To clarify this in the manuscript, we have made changes to Figure 2 and the Methods section. We agree it would be interesting to explore whether the exerted effort in the task related to symptoms. We explored this in our data by predicting the participant average proportion of accepted but failed trials by SHAPS score (controlling for age and gender). We found no relationship: M=0.01, 95% HDI=[-0.001,0.02]. However, it should be noted that the measure of proportion of failed trials may not be suitable here, as there are only few accepted but failed trials (M = 1.3% trials failed, SD = 3.50). This results from several task design characteristics aimed at preventing subjects from failing accepted trials, to avoid confounding of effort discounting with risk discounting. As an alternative measure, we explored the extent to which participants went “above and beyond” the target in accepted trials. Specifically, considering only accepted and succeeded trials, we computed the factor by which the required number of clicks was exceeded (i.e., if a subject clicked 15 times when 10 clicks were required the factor would be 1.3), averaging across effort and reward level. We then conducted a Bayesian GLM to test whether this subject wise click-exceedance measure can be predicted by apathy or anhedonia, controlling for age and gender. We found neither the SHAPS (M=-0.14, 95% HDI=[-0.43,0.17]) nor the AES (M=0.07, 95% HDI=[-0.26,0.41]) had a predictive value for the amount to which subjects exert “extra effort”. We have now added this to the manuscript.

      In Figure 2, which explains the task design in the results section, we have added the following to the figure description.

      Lines 161 – 165:

      “Each trial consists of an offer with a reward (2,3,4, or 5 points) and an effort level (1,2,3, or 4, scaled to the required clicking speed and time the clicking must be sustained for) that subjects accept or reject. If accepted, a challenge at the respective effort level must be fulfilled for the required time to win the points.”

      In the Methods section, we have added the following.

      Lines 617 – 622:

      “We used four effort-levels, corresponding to a clicking speed at 30% of a participant’s maximal capacity for 8 seconds (level 1), 50% for 11 seconds (level 2), 70% for 14 seconds (level 3), and 90% for 17 seconds (level 4). Therefore, in each trial, participants had to fulfil a certain number of mouse clicks (dependent on their capacity and the effort level) in a specific time (dependent on the effort level).”

      In the Supplement, we have added the additional analyses suggested by the Reviewer.

      Lines 195 – 213:

      “3.2 Proportion of accepted but failed trials

      For each participant, we computed the proportion of trial in which an offer was accepted, but the required effort then not fulfilled (i.e., failed trials). There was no relationship between average proportion of accepted but failed trials and SHAPS score (controlling for age and gender): M=0.01, 95% HDI=[-0.001,0.02]. However, there are intentionally few accepted but failed trials (M = 1.3% trials failed, SD = 3.50). This results from several task design characteristics aimed at preventing subjects from failing accepted trials, to avoid confounding of effort discounting with risk discounting.”

      “3.3 Exertion of “extra effort”

      We also explored the extent to which participants went “above and beyond” the target in accepted trials. Specifically, considering only accepted and succeeded trials, we computed the factor by which the required number of clicks was exceeded (i.e., if a subject clicked 15 times when 10 clicks were required the factor would be 1.3), averaging across effort and reward level. We then conducted a Bayesian GLM to test whether this subject wise click-exceedance measure can be predicted by apathy or anhedonia, controlling for age and gender. We found neither the SHAPS (M=-0.14, 95% HDI=[-0.43,0.17]) nor the AES (M=0.07, 95% HDI=[-0.26,0.41]) had a predictive value for the amount to which subjects exert “extra effort”.”

      - Perhaps relatedly, there is evidence that people with depression show less of an optimism bias in their predictions about future outcomes. As such, they show more "rational" choices in probabilistic decision tasks. I'm curious whether the Authors think that a weaker choice bias among those with stronger depression/anhedonia/apathy might be related. Also, are choices better matched with actual effort production among those with depression?

      We think this is a very interesting comment, but unfortunately feel our manuscript cannot properly speak to it: as in our response to the previous comment, our exploratory analysis linking the proportion of accepted but failed trials to anhedonia symptoms (i.e. less anhedonic people making more optimistic judgments of their likelihood of success) did not show a relationship between the two. However, this null finding may be the result of our task design which is not laid out to capture such an effect (in fact to minimize trials of this nature). We have added to the Discussion section.

      Lines 442 – 445:

      “It is possible that a higher motivational tendency reflects a more optimistic assessment of future task success, in line with work on the optimism bias95; however our task intentionally minimized unsuccessful trials by titrating effort and reward; future studies should explore this more directly.

      (95) Korn, C. W., Sharot, T., Walter, H., Heekeren, H. R. & Dolan, R. J. Depression is related to an absence of optimistically biased belief updating about future life events. Psychological Medicine 44, 579–592 (2014).”

      - The manuscript does not clarify: How did the Authors ensure that each subject received each effort-reward combination at least once if a given subject always accepted or always rejected offers?

      We have made the following edit to the Methods section to better explain this aspect of our task design.

      Lines 642 – 655:

      “For each subject, trial-by-trial presentation of effort-reward combinations were made semi-adaptively by 16 randomly interleaved staircases. Each of the 16 possible offers (4 effort-levels x 4 reward-levels) served as the starting point of one of the 16 staircase. Within each staircase, after a subject accepted a challenge, the next trial’s offer on that staircase was adjusted (by increasing effort or decreasing reward). After a subject rejected a challenge, the next offer on that staircase was adjusted by decreasing effort or increasing reward. This ensured subjects received each effort-reward combination at least once (as each participant completed all 16 staircases), while individualizing trial presentation to maximize the trials’ informative value. Therefore, in practice, even in the case of a subject rejecing all offers (and hence the staircasing procedures always adapting by decreasing effort or increasing reward), the full range of effort-reward combinations will be represented in the task across the startingpoints of all staircases (and therefore before adaption takeplace).”

      - The word "metabolic" is misspelled in Table 1

      - Figure 2 is missing panel label "C"

      - The word "effort" is repeated on line 448.

      We thank the Reviewer for their attentive reading of our manuscript and have corrected the mistakes mentioned.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      It is a bit difficult to get a sense of people's discounting from the plots provided. Could the authors show a few example individuals and their fits (i.e., how steep was effort discounting on average and how much variance was there across individuals; maybe they could show the mean discount function or some examples etc)

      We appreciate very much the Reviewer's suggestion to visualise our parameter estimates within and across individuals. We have implemented this in Figure .S2

      It would be helpful if correlations between the various markers used as dependent variables (SHAPS, DARS, AES, chronotype etc) could plotted as part of each related figure (e.g., next to the relevant effects shown).

      We agree with the Reviewer that a visual representation of the various correlations between dependent variables would be a better and more assessable communication than our current paragraph listing the correlations. We have implemented this by adding a new figure plotting all correlations in a heat map, with asterisks indicating significance.

      The authors use the term "meaningful relationship" - how is this defined? If undefined, maybe consider changing (do they mean significant?)

      We understand how our use of the term “(no) meaningful relationship” was confusing here. As we conducted most analyses in a Bayesian fashion, this is a formal definition of ‘meaningful’: the 95% highest density interval does not span across 0. However, we do not want this to be misunderstood as frequentist “significance” and agree clarity can be improved here, To avoid confusion, we have amended the manuscript where relevant (i.e., we now state “we found a (/no) relationship / effect” rather than “we found a meaningful relationship”.

      The authors do not include an inverse temperature parameter in their discounting models-can they motivate why? If a participant chose nearly randomly, which set of parameter values would they get assigned?

      Our decision to not include an inverse temperature parameter was made after an extensive simulation-based investigation of different models and task designs. A series of parameter recovery studies including models with an inverse temperature parameter revealed the inverse temperature parameter could not be distinguished from the reward sensitivity parameter. Specifically, inverse temperature seemed to capture the variance of the true underlying reward sensitivity parameter, leading to confounding between the two. Hence, including both reward sensitivity and inverse temperature would not have allowed us to reliably estimate either parameter. As our pre-registered hypotheses related to the reward sensitivity parameter, we opted to include models with the reward sensitivity parameter rather than the inverse temperature parameter in our model space. We have now added these simulations to our supplement.

      Nevertheless, we believe our models can capture random decision-making. The parameters of effort and reward sensitivity capture how sensitive one is to changes in effort/reward level. Hence, random decision-making can be interpreted as low effort and reward sensitivity, such that one’s decision-making is not guided by changes in effort and reward magnitude. With low effort/reward sensitivity, the motivational tendency parameter (previously “choice bias”) would capture to what extend this random decision-making is biased toward accepting or rejecting offers.

      The simulation results are now detailed in the Supplement.

      Lines 25 – 46:

      “1.2.1 Parameter recoveries including inverse temperature

      In the process of task and model space development, we also considered models incorportating an inverse temperature paramater. To this end, we conducted parameter recoveries for four models, defined in Table S3.

      Parameter recoveries indicated that, parameters can be recovered reliably in model 1, which includes only effort sensitivity ( ) and inverse temperature as free parameters (on-diagonal correlations: .98 > r > .89, off-diagonal correlations: .04 > |r| > .004). However, as a reward sensitivity parameter is added to the model (model 2), parameter recovery seems to be compromised, as parameters are estimated less accurately (on-diagonal correlations: .80 > r > .68), and spurious correlations between parameters emerge (off-diagonal correlations: .40 > |r| > .17). This issue remains when motivational tendency is added to the model (model 4; on-diagonal correlations: .90 > r > .65; off-diagonal correlations: .28 > |r| > .03), but not when inverse temperature is modelled with effort sensitivity and motivational tendency, but not reward sensitivity (model 3; on-diagonal correlations: .96 > r > .73; off-diagonal correlations: .05 > |r| > .003).

      As our pre-registered hypotheses related to the reward sensitivity parameter, we opted to include models with the reward sensitivity parameter rather than the inverse temperature parameter in our model space.”

      And we now discuss random decision-making specifically in the Methods section.

      Lines 698 – 709:

      “First, a cost function transforms costs and rewards associated with an action into a subjective value (SV):

      with and for reward and effort sensitivity, and  and  for reward and effort. Higher effort and reward sensitivity mean the SV is more strongly influenced by changes in effort and reward, respectively (Fig. 3B-C). Hence, low effort and reward sensitivity mean the SV, and with that decision-making, is less guided by effort and reward offers, as would be in random decision-making.

      This SV is then transformed to an acceptance probability by a softmax function:

      with for the predicted acceptance probability and  for the intercept representing motivational tendency. A high motivational tendency means a subjects has a tendency, or bias, to accept rather than reject offers (Fig. 3D).”

      The pre-registration mentions effects of BMI and risk of metabolic disease-those are briefly reported the in factor loadings, but not discussed afterwards-although the authors stated hypotheses regarding these measures in their preregistration. Were those hypotheses supported?

      We reported these results (albeit only briefly) in the factor loadings resulting from our PLS regression and results from follow-up GLMs (see below). We have now amended the Discussion to enable further elaboration on whether they confirmed our hypotheses (this evidence was unclear, but we have subsequently followed up in a sample with type-2 diabetes, who also show reduced motivational tendency).

      Lines 258 – 261:

      “For the MEQ (95%HDI=[-0.09,0.06]), MCTQ (95%HDI=[-0.17,0.05]), BMI (95%HDI=[-0.19,0.01]), and FINDRISC (95%HDI=[-0.09,0.03]) no relationship with motivational tendency was found, consistent with the smaller magnitude of reported component loadings from the PLS regression.”

      We have added the following paragraph to our discussion.

      Lines 491 – 502:

      “To our surprise, we did not find statistical evidence for a relationship between effort-based decision-making and measures of metabolic health (BMI and risk for type-2 diabetes). Our analyses linking BMI to motivational tendency reveal a numeric effect in line with our hypothesis: a higher BMI relating to a lower motivational tendency. However, the 95% HDI for this effect narrowly included zero (95%HDI=[-0.19,0.01]). Possibly, our sample did not have sufficient variance in metabolic health to detect dimensional metabolic effects in a current general population sample. A recent study by our group investigates the same neurocomputational parameters of effort-based decision-making in participants with type-2 diabetes and non-diabetic controls matched by age, gender, and physical activity105. We report a group effect on the motivational tendency parameter, with type-2 diabetic patients showing a lower tendency to exert effort for reward.”

      “(105) Mehrhof, S. Z., Fleming, H. A. & Nord, C. A cognitive signature of metabolic health in effort-based decision-making. Preprint at https://doi.org/10.31234/osf.io/4bkm9 (2024).”

      R-values are indicated as a range (e.g., from 0.07-0.72 for the last one in 2.1 which is a large range). As mentioned above, the full correlation matrix should be reported in figures as heatmaps.

      We agree with the Reviewer that a heatmap is a better way of conveying this information – see Figure 1 in response to their previous comment.  

      The answer on whether data was already collected is missing on the second preregistration link. Maybe this is worth commenting on somewhere in the manuscript.

      This question appears missing because, as detailed in the manuscript, we felt that technically some data *was* already collected by the time our second pre-registration was posted. This is because the second pre-registration detailed an additional data collection, with the goal of extending data from the original dataset to include extreme chronotypes and increase precision of analyses. To avoid any confusion regarding the lack of reply to this question in the pre-registration, we have added the following disclaimer to the description of the second pre-registration:

      “Please note the lack of response to the question regarding already collected data. This is because the data collection in the current pre-registration extends data from the original dataset to increase the precision of analyses. While this original data is already collected, none of the data collection described here has taken place.”

      Some referencing is not reflective of the current state of the field (e.g., for effort discounting: Sugiwaka et al., 2004 is cited). There are multiple labs that have published on this since then including Philippe Tobler's and Sven Bestmann's groups (e.g., Hartmann et al., 2013; Klein-Flügge et al., Plos CB, 2015).

      We agree absolutely, and have added additional, more recent references on effort discounting.

      Lines 67 – 68:

      “Higher costs devalue associated rewards, an effect referred to as effort-discounting33–37.”

      (33) Sugiwaka, H. & Okouchi, H. Reformative self-control and discounting of reward value by delay or effort1. Japanese Psychological Research 46, 1–9 (2004).

      (34) Hartmann, M. N., Hager, O. M., Tobler, P. N. & Kaiser, S. Parabolic discounting of monetary rewards by physical effort. Behavioural Processes 100, 192–196 (2013).

      (35) Klein-Flügge, M. C., Kennerley, S. W., Saraiva, A. C., Penny, W. D. & Bestmann, S. Behavioral Modeling of Human Choices Reveals Dissociable Effects of Physical Effort and Temporal Delay on Reward Devaluation. PLOS Computational Biology 11, e1004116 (2015).

      (36) Białaszek, W., Marcowski, P. & Ostaszewski, P. Physical and cognitive effort discounting across different reward magnitudes: Tests of discounting models. PLOS ONE 12, e0182353 (2017).

      (37) Ostaszewski, P., Bąbel, P. & Swebodziński, B. Physical and cognitive effort discounting of hypothetical monetary rewards. Japanese Psychological Research 55, 329–337 (2013).

      There are lots of typos throughout (e.g., Supplementary martial, Mornignness etc)

      We thank the Reviewer for their attentive reading of our manuscript and have corrected our mistakes.

      In Table 1, it is not clear what the numbers given in parentheses are. The figure note mentions SD, IQR, and those are explicitly specified for some rows, but not all.

      After reviewing Table 1 we understand the comment regarding the clarity of the number in parentheses. In our original manuscript, for some variables, numbers were given per category (e.g. for gender and ethnicity), rather than per row, in which case the parenthetical statistic was indicated in the header row only. However, we now see that the clarity of the table would have been improved by adding the reported statistic for each row—we have corrected this.

      In Figure 1C, it would be much more helpful if the different panels were combined into one single panel (using differently coloured dots/lines instead of bars).

      We agree visualizing the proportion of accepted trials across effort and reward levels in one single panel aids interpretability. We have implemented it in the following plot (now Figure 2C).

      In Sections 2.2.1 and 4.2.1, the authors mention "mixed-effects analysis of variance (ANOVA) of repeated measures" (same in the preregistration). It is not clear if this is a standard RM-ANOVA (aggregating data per participant per condition) or a mixed-effects model (analysing data on a trial-by-trial level). This model seems to only include within-subjects variable, so it isn't a "mixed ANOVA" mixing within and between subjects effects.

      We apologise that our use of the term "mixed-effects analysis of variance (ANOVA) of repeated measures" is indeed incorrectly applied here. We aggregate data per participant and effort-by-reward combination, meaning there are no between-subject effects tested. We have corrected this to “repeated measures ANOVA”.

      In Section 2.2.2, the authors write "R-hats>1.002" but probably mean "R-hats < 1.002". ESS is hard to evaluate unless the total number of samples is given.

      We thank the Reviewer for noticing this mistake and have corrected it in the manuscript.

      In Section 2.3, the inference criterion is unclear. The authors first report "factor loadings" and then perform a permutation test that is not further explained. Which of these factors are actually needed for predicting choice bias out of chance? The permutation test suggests that the null hypothesis is just "none of these measures contributes anything to predicting choice bias", which is already falsified if only one of them shows an association with choice bias. It would be relevant to know for which measures this is the case. Specifically, it would be relevant to know whether adding circadian measures into a model that already contains apathy/anhedonia improves predictive performance.

      We understand the Reviewer’s concerns regarding the detail of explanation we have provided for this part of our analysis, but we believe there may have been a misunderstanding regarding the partial least squares (PLS) regression. Rather than identifying a number of factors to predict the outcome variable, a PLS regression identifies a model with one or multiple components, with various factor loadings of differing magnitude. In our case, the PLS regression identified a model with one component to best predict our outcome variable (motivational tendency, which in our previous various we called choice bias). This one component had factor loadings of our questionnaire-based measures, with measures of apathy and anhedonia having highest weights, followed by lesser weighted factor loadings by measures of circadian rhythm and metabolic health. The permutation test tests whether this component (consisting of the combination of factor loadings) can predict the outcome variable out of sample.

      We hope we have improved clarity on this in the manuscript by making the following edits to the Results section.

      Lines 248 – 251:

      “Permutation testing indicated the predictive value of the resulting component (with factor loadings described above) was significant out-of-sample (root-mean-squared error [RMSE]=0.203, p=.001).”

      Further, we hope to provide a more in-depth explanation of these results in the Methods section.

      Lines 755 – 759:

      “Statistical significance of obtained effects (i.e., the predictive accuracy of the identified component and factor loadings) was assessed by permutation tests, probing the proportion of root-mean-squared errors (RMSEs) indicating stronger or equally strong predictive accuracy under the null hypothesis.”

      In Section 2.5, the authors simply report "that chronotype showed effects of chronotype on reward sensitivity", but the direction of the effect (higher reward sensitivity in early vs. late chronotype) remains unclear.

      We thank the Reviewer for pointing this out. While we did report the direction of effect, this was only presented in the subsequent parentheticals and could have been made much clearer. To assist with this, we have made the following addition to the text.

      Lines 317 – 320:

      “Bayesian GLMs, controlling for age and gender, predicting task parameters by time-of-day and chronotype showed effects of chronotype on reward sensitivity (i.e. those with a late chronotype had a higher reward sensitivity; M= 0.325, 95% HDI=[0.19,0.46])”

      In Section 4.2, the authors write that they "implemented a previously-described procedure using Prolific pre-screeners", but no reference to this previous description is given.

      We thank the Reviewer for bringing our attention to this missing reference, which has now been added to the manuscript.

      In Supplementary Table S2, only the "on-diagonal correlations" are given, but off-diagonal correlations (indicative of trade-offs between parameters) would also be informative.

      We agree with the Reviewer that off-diagonal correlations between underlying and recovered parameters are crucial to assess confounding between parameters during model estimation. We reported this in figure S1D, where we present the full correlation matric between underlying and recovered parameters in a heatmap. We have now noticed that this plot was missing axis labels, which have been added now.

      I found it somewhat difficult to follow the results section without having read the methods section beforehand. At the beginning of the Results section, could the authors briefly sketch the outline of their study? Also, given they have a pre-registration, could the authors introduce each section with a statement of what they expected to find, and close with whether the data confirmed their expectations? In the current version of the manuscript, many results are presented without much context of what they mean.

      We agree a brief outline of the study procedure before reporting the results would be beneficial to following the subsequently text and have added the following to the end of our Introduction.

      Lines 101 – 106:

      “Here, we tested the relationship between motivational decision-making and three key neuropsychiatric syndromes: anhedonia, apathy, and depression, taking both a transdiagnostic and categorical (diagnostic) approach. To do this, we validate a newly developed effort-expenditure task, designed for online testing, and gamified to increase engagement. Participants completed the effort-expenditure task online, followed by a series of self-report questionnaires.”

      We have added references to our pre-registered hypotheses at multiple points in our manuscript.

      Lines 185 – 187:

      “In line with our pre-registered hypotheses, we found significant main effects for effort (F(1,14367)=4961.07, p<.0001) and reward (F(1,14367)=3037.91, p<.001), and a significant interaction between the two (F(1,14367)=1703.24, p<.001).”

      Lines 215 – 221:

      “Model comparison by out-of-sample predictive accuracy identified the model implementing three parameters (motivational tendency a, reward sensitivity , and effort sensitivity ), with a parabolic cost function (subsequently referred to as the full parabolic model) as the winning model (leave-one-out information criterion [LOOIC; lower is better] = 29734.8; expected log posterior density [ELPD; higher is better] = -14867.4; Fig. 31ED). This was in line with our pre-registered hypotheses.”

      Lines 252 – 258:

      “Bayesian GLMs confirmed evidence for psychiatric questionnaire measures predicting motivational tendency (SHAPS: M=-0.109; 95% highest density interval (HDI)=[-0.17,-0.04]; AES: M=-0.096; 95%HDI=[-0.15,-0.03]; DARS: M=-0.061; 95%HDI=[-0.13,-0.01]; Fig. 4A). Post-hoc GLMs on DARS sub-scales showed an effect for the sensory subscale (M=-0.050; 95%HDI=[-0.10,-0.01]). This result of neuropsychiatric symptoms predicting a lower motivational tendency is in line with our pre-registered hypothesis.”

      Lines 258 – 263:

      “For the MEQ (95%HDI=[-0.09,0.06]), MCTQ (95%HDI=[-0.17,0.05]), BMI (95%HDI=[-0.19,0.01]), and FINDRISC (95%HDI=[-0.09,0.03]) no meaningful relationship with choice biasmotivational tendency was found, consistent with the smaller magnitude of reported component loadings from the PLS regression. This null finding for dimensional measures of circadian rhythm and metabolic health was not in line with our pre-registered hypotheses.”

      Lines 268 – 270:

      “For reward sensitivity, the intercept-only model outperformed models incorporating questionnaire predictors based on RMSE. This result was not in line with our pre-registered expectations.”

      Lines 295 – 298:

      “As in our transdiagnostic analyses of continuous neuropsychiatric measures (Results 2.3), we found evidence for a lower motivational tendency parameter in the MDD group compared to HCs (M=-0.111, 95% HDI=[ -0.20,-0.03]) (Fig. 4B). This result confirmed our pre-registered hypothesis.”

      Lines 344 – 355:

      “Late chronotypes showed a lower motivational tendency than early chronotypes (M=-0.11, 95% HDI=[-0.22,-0.02])—comparable to effects of transdiagnostic measures of apathy and anhedonia, as well as diagnostic criteria for depression. Crucially, we found motivational tendency was modulated by an interaction between chronotype and time-of-day (M=0.19, 95% HDI=[0.05,0.33]): post-hoc GLMs in each chronotype group showed this was driven by a time-of-day effect within late, rather than early, chronotype participants (M=0.12, 95% HDI=[0.02,0.22], such that late chronotype participants showed a lower motivational tendency in the morning testing sessions, and a higher motivational tendency in the evening testing sessions; early chronotype: 95% HDI=[-0.16,0.04]) (Fig. 5A). These results of a main effect and an interaction effect of chronotype on motivational tendency confirmed our pre-registered hypothesis.”

      Lines 390 – 393:

      “Participants with an early chronotype had a lower reward sensitivity parameter than those with a late chronotype (M=0.27, 95% HDI=[0.16,0.38]). We found no effect of time-of-day on reward sensitivity (95%HDI=[-0.09,0.11]) (Fig. 5B). These results were in line with our pre-registered hypotheses.”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Comments on revisions:

      This revision addressed all my previous comments.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Comments on revisions:

      The authors addressed my comments and it is ready for publication.

      We are grateful for the reviewers’ effort and are encouraged by their generally positive assessment of our manuscript.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      This revision addressed all my previous comments. The only new issue concerns the authors’ response to the following comment of reviewer 3:

      (2) Authors note ”monovalent positive salt ions such as Na+ can be attracted, somewhat counterintuitively, into biomolecular condensates scaffolded by positively-charged polyelectrolytic IDRs in the presence of divalent counterions”. This may be due to the fact that the divalent negative counterions present in the dense phase (as seen in the ternary phase diagrams) also recruit a small amount of Na+.

      Author reply: The reviewer’s comment is valid, as a physical explanation for this prediction is called for. Accordingly, the following sentence is added to p. 10, lines 27-29: ...

      Here are my comments on this issue. Most IDPs with a net positive charge still have negatively charged residues, which in theory can bind cations. In fact, Caprin1 has 3 negatively charged residues (same as A1-LCD). All-atom simulations of MacAinsh et al (ref 72) have shown that these negatively charged residues bind Na+; I assume this effect can be captured by the coarsegrained models in the present study. Moreover, all-atom simulations showed that Na+ has a strong tendency to be coordinated by backbone carbonyls, which of course are present on all residues. Suggestions:

      (a) The authors may want to analyze the binding partners of Na+. Are they predominantly the3 negatively charged residues, or divalent counterions, or both?

      (b) The authors may want to discuss the potential underestimation of Na+ inside Caprin1 condensates due to the lack of explicit backbone carbonyls that can coordinate Na+ in their models. A similar problem applies to backbone amides that can coordinate anions, but to a lesser extent (see Fig. 3A of ref 72).

      The reviewer’s comments are well taken. Regarding the statement in the revised manuscript “This phenomenon arises because the positively charge monovalent salt ions are attracted to the negatively charged divalent counterions in the protein-condensed phase.”, it should be first noted that the statement was inferred from the model observation that Na+ is depleted in condensed Caprin1 (Fig. 2a) when the counterion is monovalent (an observation that was stated almost immediately preceding the quoted statement). To make this logical connection clearer as well as to address the reviewer’s point about the presence of negatively charged residues in Caprin1, we have modified this statement in the Version of Record (VOR) as follows:

      “This phenomenon most likely arises from the attraction of the positively charge monovalent salt ions to the negatively charged divalent counterions in the proteincondensed phase because although the three negatively charged D residues in Caprin1 can attract Na+, it is notable that Na+ is depleted in condensed Caprin1 when the counterion is monovalent (Fig. 2a).”

      The reviewer’s suggestion (a) of collecting statistics of Na+ interactions in the Caprin1 condensate is valuable and should be attempted in future studies since it is beyond the scope of the present work. Thus far, our coarse-grained molecular dynamics has considered only monovalent Cl− counterions. We do not have simulation data for divalent counterions.

      Following the reviewer’s suggestion (b), we have now added the following sentence in Discussion under the subheading “Effects of salt on biomolecular LLPS”:

      “In this regard, it should be noted that positively and negatively charged salt ions can also coordinate with backbone carbonyls and amides, respectively, in addition to coordinating with charged amino acid sidechains (MacAinsh et al., eLife 2024). The impact of such effects, which are not considered in the present coarse-grained models, should be ascertained by further investigations using atomic simulations (MacAinsh et al., eLife 2024; Rauscher & Pom`es, eLife 2017; Zheng et al., J Phys Chem B 2020).”

      Here we have added a reference to Rauscher & Pom`es, eLife 2017 to more accurately reflect progress made in atomic simulations of biomolecular condensates.

      More generally, regarding the reviewer’s comments on the merits of coarse-grained versus atomic approaches, we re-emphasize, as stated in our paper, that these approaches are complementary. Atomic approaches undoubtedly afford structurally and energetically high-resolution information. However, as it stands, simulations of the assembly-disassembly process of biomolecular condensate are nonideal because of difficulties in achieving equilibration even for a small model system with < 10 protein chains (MacAinsh et al., eLife 2024) although well-equilibrated simulations are possible for a reasonably-sized system with ∼ 30 chains when the main focus is on the condensed phase (Rauscher & Pom`es, eLife 2017). In this context, coarse-grained models are valuable for assessing the energetic role of salt ions in the thermodynamic stability of biomolecular condensates of physically reasonable sizes under equilibrium conditions.

      In addition to the above minor additions, we have also added citations in the VOR to two highly relevant recent papers: Posey et al., J Am Chem Soc 2024 for salt-dependent biomolecular condensation (mentioned in Dicussion under subheadings “Tielines in protein-salt phase diagrams” and “Counterion valency” together with added references to Hribar et al., J Am Chem Soc 2002 and Nostro & Ninham, Chem Rev 2012 for the Hofmeister phenomena discussed by Posey et al.) and Zhu et al., J Mol Cell Biol 2024 for ATP-modulated reentrant behavior (mentioned in Introduction). We have also added back a reference to our previous work Lin et al., J Mol Liq 2017 to provide more background information for our formulation.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors have done a great job addressing previous comments.

      We thank this reviewer for his/her effort and are encouraged by the positive assessment of our revised manuscript.

      ---

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors used multiple approaches to study salt effects in liquid-liquid phase separation (LLPS). Results on both wild-type Caprin1 and mutants and on different types of salts contribute to a comprehensive understanding.

      Strengths:

      The main strength of this work is the thoroughness of investigation. This aspect is highlighted by the multiple approaches used in the study, and reinforced by the multiple protein variants and different salts studied.

      We are encouraged by this positive overall assessment.

      Weaknesses: (1) The multiple computational approaches are a strength, but they’re cruder than explicit-solvent all-atom molecular dynamics (MD) simulations and may miss subtle effects of salts. In particular, all-atom MD simulations demonstrate that high salt strengthens pi-types of interactions (ref. 42 and MacAinsh et al, https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.05.26.596000v3).

      The relative strengths and limitations of coarse-grained vs all-atom simulation are now more prominently discussed beginning at the bottom of p. 5 through the first 8 lines of p. 6 of the revised manuscript (page numbers throughout this letter refer to those in the submitted pdf file of the revised manuscript), with MacAinsh et al. included in this added discussion (cited as ref. 72 in the revised manuscript). The fact that coarse-grained simulation may not provide insights into more subtle structural and energetic effects afforded by all-atom simulations with regard to π-related interaction is now further emphasized on p. 11 (lines 23–30), with reference to MacAinsh et al. as well as original ref. 42 (Krainer et al., now ref. 50 in the revised manuscript).

      (2) The paper can be improved by distilling the various results into a simple set of conclusions. By example, based on salt effects revealed by all-atom MD simulations, MacAinsh et al. presented a sequence-based predictor for classes of salt dependence. Wild-type Caprin1 fits right into the “high net charg”e class, with a high net charge and a high aromatic content, showing no LLPS at 0 NaCl and an increasing tendency of LLPS with increasing NaCl. In contrast, pY-Caprin1 belongs to the “screening” class, with a high level of charged residues and showing a decreasing tendency of LLPS.

      This is a helpful suggestion. We have now added a subsection with heading “Overview of key observations from complementary approaches” at the beginning of the “Results” section on p. 6 (lines 18–37) and the first line of p. 7. In the same vein, a few concise sentences to summarize our key results are added to the first paragraph of “Discussion” (p. 18, lines 23– 26). In particular, the relationship of Caprin1 and pY-Caprin1 with the recent classification by MacAinsh et al. (ref. 72) in terms of “high net charge” and “screening” classes is now also stated, as suggested by this reviewer, on p. 18 under “Discussion” (lines 26–30).

      (3) Mechanistic interpretations can be further simplified or clarified. (i) Reentrant salt effects (e.g., Fig. 4a) are reported but no simple explanation seems to have been provided. Fig. 4a,b look very similar to what has been reported as strong-attraction promotor and weak-attraction suppressor, respectively (ref. 50; see also PMC5928213 Fig. 2d,b). According to the latter two studies, the “reentrant” behavior of a strong-attraction promotor, CL- in the present case, is due to Cl-mediated attraction at low to medium [NaCl] and repulsion between Cl- ions at high salt. Do the authors agree with this explanation? If not, could they provide another simple physical explanation? (ii) The authors attributed the promotional effect of Cl- to counterionbridged interchain contacts, based on a single instance. There is another simple explanation, i.e., neutralization of the net charge on Caprin1. The authors should analyze their simulation results to distinguish net charge neutralization and interchain bridging; see MacAinsh et al.

      The relationship of Cl− in bridging and neutralizing configurations, respectively, with the classification of “strong-attraction promoter” and “weak-attraction suppressor” by Zhou and coworkers is now stated on p. 13 (lines 29–31), with reference to original ref. 50 by Ghosh, Mazarakos & Zhou (now ref. 59 in the revised manuscript) as well as the earlier patchy particle model study PMC5928213 by Nguemaha & Zhou, now cited as ref. 58 in the revised manuscript. After receiving this referee report, we have conducted an extensive survey of our coarse-grained MD data to provide a quantitative description of the prevalence of counterion (Cl−) bridging interactions linking positively charged arginines (Arg+s) on different Caprin1 chains in the condensed phase (using the [Na+] = 0 case as an example). The newly compiled data is reported under a new subsection heading “Explicit-ion MD offers insights into counterion-mediated interchain bridging interactions among condensed Caprin1 molecules” on p. 12 (last five lines)–p. 14 (first 10 lines) [∼ 1_._5 additional page] as well as a new Fig. 6 to depict the statistics of various Arg+–Cl−–Arg+ configurations, with the conclusion that a vast majority (at least 87%) of Cl− counterions in the Caprin1-condensed phase engage in favorable condensation-driving interchain bridging interactions.

      (4) The authors presented ATP-Mg both as a single ion and as two separate ions; there is no explanation of which of the two versions reflects reality. When presenting ATP-Mg as a single ion, it’s as though it forms a salt with Na+. I assume NaCl, ATP, and MgCl2 were used in the experiment. Why is Cl- not considered? Related to this point, it looks like ATP is just another salt ion studied and much of the Results section is on NaCl, so the emphasis of ATP (“Diverse Roles of ATP” in the title is somewhat misleading.

      We model ATP and ATP-Mg both as single-bead ions (in rG-RPA) and also as structurally more realistic short multiple-bead polymers (in field-theoretic simulation, FTS). We have now added discussions to clarify our modeling rationale in using and comparing different models for ATP and ATP-Mg, as follows:

      p. 8 (lines 19–36):

      “The complementary nature of our multiple methodologies allows us to focus sharply on the electrostatic aspects of hydrolysis-independent role of ATP in biomolecular condensation by comparing ATP’s effects with those of simple salt. Here, Caprin1 and pY-Caprin1 are modeled minimally as heteropolymers of charged and neutral beads in rG-RPA and FTS. ATP and ATP-Mg are modeled as simple salts (singlebead ions) in rG-RPA whereas they are modeled with more structural complexity as short charged polymers (multiple-bead chains) in FTS, though the latter models are still highly coarse-grained. Despite this modeling difference, rG-RPA and FTS both rationalize experimentally observed ATP- and NaCl-modulated reentrant LLPS of Caprin1 and a lack of a similar reentrance for pY-Caprin1 as well as a prominent colocalization of ATP with the Caprin1 condensate. Consistently, the same contrasting trends in the effect of NaCl on Caprin1 and pY-Caprin1 are also seen in our coarse-grained MD simulations, though polymer field theories tend to overestimate LLPS propensity [99]. The robustness of the theoretical trends across different modeling platforms underscores electrostatics as a significant component in the diverse roles of ATP in the context of its well-documented ability to modulate biomolecular LLPS via hydrophobic and π-related effects [63, 65, 67].”

      Here, the last sentence quoted above addresses this reviewer’s question about our intended meaning in referring to “diverse roles of ATP” in the title of our paper. To make this point even clearer, we have also added the following sentence to the Abstract (p. 2, lines 12–13):

      “... The electrostatic nature of these features complements ATP’s involvement in π-related interactions and as an amphiphilic hydrotrope, ...”

      Moreover, to enhance readability, we have now added pointers in the rG-RPA part of our paper to anticipate the structurally more complex ATP and ATP-Mg models to be introduced subsequently in the FTS part, as follows:

      p. 9 (lines 13–15):

      “As mentioned above, in the present rG-RPA formulation, (ATP-Mg)<sup>2−</sup> and ATP<sup>4−</sup> are modeled minimally as a single-bead ion. They are represented by charged polymer models with more structural complexity in the FTS models below.”

      p. 11 (lines 8–11):

      These observations from analytical theory will be corroborated by FTS below with the introduction of structurally more realistic models of (ATP-Mg) <sup>2−</sup>, ATP<sup>4−</sup> together with the possibility of simultaneous inclusion of Na<sup>+</sup>, Cl−, and Mg<sup>2+</sup> in the FTS models of Caprin1/pY-Caprin1 LLPS systems.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, Lin and colleagues aim to understand the role of different salts on the phase behavior of a model protein of significant biological interest, Caprin1, and its phosphorylated variant, pY-Caprin1. To achieve this, the authors employed a variety of methods to complement experimental studies and obtain a molecular-level understanding of ion partitioning inside biomolecular condensates. A simple theory based on rG-RPA is shown to capture the different salt dependencies of Caprin1 and pY-Caprin1 phase separation, demonstrating excellent agreement with experimental results. The application of this theory to multivalent ions reveals many interesting features with the help of multicomponent phase diagrams. Additionally, the use of CG model-based MD simulations and FTS provides further clarity on how counterions can stabilize condensed phases.

      Strengths:

      The greatest strength of this study lies in the integration of various methods to obtain complementary information on thermodynamic phase diagrams and the molecular details of the phase separation process. The authors have also extended their previously proposed theoretical approaches, which should be of significant interest to other researchers. Some of the findings reported in this paper, such as bridging interactions, are likely to inspire new studies using higher-resolution atomistic MD simulations.

      Weaknesses:

      The paper does not have any major issues.

      We are very encouraged by this reviewer’s positive assessment of our work.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Authors first use rG-RPA to reproduce two observed trends. Caprin1 does not phase separate at very low salt but then undergoes LLPS with added salt while further addition of salt reduces its propensity to LLPS. On the other hand pY-Caprin1 exhibits a monotonic trend where the propensity to phase separate decreases with the addition of salt. This distinction is captured by a two component model and also when salt ions are explicitly modeled as a separate species with a ternary phase diagram. The predicted ternary diagrams (when co and counter ions are explicitly accounted for) also predict the tendency of ions to co-condense or exclude proteins in the dense phase. Predicted trends are generally in line with the measurement for Cparin1 [sic]. Next, the authors seek to explain the observed difference in phase separation when Arginines are replaced by Lysines creating different variants. In the current rG-RPA type models both Arginine (R) and Lysine (K) are treated equally since non-electrostatic effects are only modeled in a meanfield manner that can be fitted but not predicted. For this reason, coarse grain MD simulation is suitable. Moreover, MD simulation affords structural features of the condensates. They used a force field that is capable of discriminating R and K. The MD predicted degrees of LLPS of these variants again is consistent with the measurement. One additional insight emerges from MD simulations that a negative ion can form a bridge between two positively charged residues on the chain. These insights are not possible to derive from rG-RPA. Both rG-RPA and MD simulation become cumbersome when considering multiple types of ions such as Na, Cl, [ATP] and [ATP-Mg] all present at the same time. FTS is well suited to handle this complexity. FTS also provides insights into the co-localization of ions and proteins that is consistent with NMR. By using different combinations of ions they confirm the robustness of the prediction that Caprin1 shows salt-dependent reentrant behavior, adding further support that the differential behavior of Caprin1, and pY-Caprin1 is likely to be mediated by charge-charge interactions.

      We are encouraged by this reviewer’s positive assessment of our manuscript.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Analysis:

      Analyze the simulation results to distinguish net charge neutralization and interchain bridging; see MacAinsh et al.

      Please see response above to points (3) and (4) under “Weaknesses” in this reviewer’s public review. We have now added a 1.5-page subsection starting from the bottom of p. 12 to the top of p. 14 to discuss a new extensive analysis of Arg<sup>+</sup>–Cl<sup>−</sup>–Arg<sup>+</sup> configurations to identify bridging interactions, with key results reported in a new Fig. 6 (p. 42). Recent results from MacAinsh, Dey & Zhou (cited now as ref. 72) are included in the added discussion. Relevant advances made in MacAinsh et al., including clarification and classification of salt-mediated interactions in the phase separation of A1-LCD are now mentioned multiple times in the revised manuscript (p. 5, lines 19–20; p. 6, lines 2–5; p. 11, line 30; p. 14, line 10; p. 18, lines 28–29; and p. 20, line 4).

      Writing and presentation

      (1) Cite subtle effects that may be missed by the coarser approaches in this study

      Please see response above to point (1) under “Weaknesses” in this reviewer’s public review.

      (2) Try to distill the findings into a simple set of conclusions

      Please see response above to point (2) under “Weaknesses” in this reviewer’s public review.

      (3) Clarify and simplify physical interpretations

      Please see response above to point (2) under “Weaknesses” in this reviewer’s public review.

      (4) Explain the treatment of ATP-Mg as either a single ion or two separate ions; reconsider modifying the reference to ATP in the title

      Please see response above to point (4) under “Weaknesses” in this reviewer’s public review.

      (5) Minor points:

      p. 4, citation of ref 56: this work shows ATP is a driver of LLPS, not merely a regulator (promotor or suppressor)

      This citation to original ref. 56 (now ref. 63) on p. 4 is now corrected (bottom line of p. 4).

      p. 7 and throughout: “using bulk [Caprin1]” – I assume this is the initial overall Caprin1 concentration. It would avoid confusion to state such concentrations as “initial” or “initial overall”

      We have now added “initial overall concentration” in parentheses on p. 8 (line 4) to clarify the meaning of “bulk concentration”.

      p. 7 and throughout: both mM (also uM) and mg/ml have been used as units of protein concentration and that can cause confusion. Indeed, the authors seem to have confused themselves on p. 9, where 400 (750) mM is probably 400 (750) mg/ml. The same with the use of mM and M for salt concentrations (400 mM Mg2+ but 0.1 and 1.0 M Na+)

      Concentrations are now given in both molarity and mass density in Fig. 1 (p. 37), Fig. 2 (p. 38), Fig. 4 (p. 40), and Fig. 7 (p. 43), as noted in the text on p. 8 (lines 4–5). Inconsistencies and errors in quoting concentrations are now corrected (p. 10, line 18, and p. 11, line 2).

      p. 7, “LCST-like”: isn’t this more like a case of a closed coexistence curve that contains both UCST and LCST?

      The discussion on p. 8 around this observation from Fig. 1d is now expanded, including alluding to the theoretical possibility of a closed co-existence curve mentioned by this reviewer, as follows:

      “Interestingly, the decrease in some of the condensed-phase [pY-Caprin1]s with decreasing T (orange and green symbols for ≲ 20◦C in Fig. 1d trending toward slightly lower [pY-Caprin1]) may suggest a hydrophobicity-driven lower critical solution temperature (LCST)-like reduction of LLPS propensity as temperature approaches ∼ 0◦C as in cold denaturation of globular proteins [7,23] though the hypothetical LCST is below 0◦C and therefore not experimentally accessible. If that is the case, the LLPS region would resemble those with both an UCST and a LCST [4]. As far as simple modeling is concerned, such a feature may be captured by a FH model wherein interchain contacts are favored by entropy at intermediate to low temperatures and by enthalpy at high temperatures, thus entailing a heat capacity contribution in χ(T), with [7,109,110] beyond the temperature-independent ϵ<sub>h</sub> and ϵ<sub>s</sub> used in Fig. 1c,d and Fig. 2. Alternatively, a reduction in overall condensed-phase concentration can also be caused by formation of heterogeneous locally organized structures with large voids at low temperatures even when interchain interactions are purely enthalpic (Fig. 4 of ref. [111]).”

      p. 8 “Caprin1 can undergo LLPS without the monovalent salt (Na+) ions (LLPS regions extend to [Na+] = 0 in Fig. 2e,f”: I don’t quite understand what’s going on here. Is the effect caused by a small amount of counterion (ATP-Mg) that’s calculated according to eq 1 (with z s set to 0)?

      The discussion of this result in Fig. 2e,f is now clarified as follows (p. 10, lines 8–14 in the revised manuscript):

      “The corresponding rG-RPA results (Fig. 2e–h) indicate that, in the present of divalent counterions (needed for overall electric neutrality of the Caprin1 solution), Caprin1 can undergo LLPS without the monvalent salt (Na+) ions (LLPS regions extend to [Na+] = 0 in Fig. 2e,f; i.e., ρs \= 0, ρc > 0 in Eq. (1)), because the configurational entropic cost of concentrating counterions in the Caprin1 condensed phase is lesser for divalent (zc \= 2) than for monovalent (zc \= 1) counterions as only half of the former are needed for approximate electric neutrality in the condensed phase.”

      p. 9 “Despite the tendency for polymer field theories to overestimate LLPS propensity and condensed-phase concentrations”: these limitations should be mentioned earlier, along with the very high concentrations (e.g., 1200 mg/ml) in Fig. 2

      This sentence (now on p. 11, lines 11–18) is now modified to clarify the intended meaning as suggested by this reviewer:

      “Despite the tendency for polymer field theories to overestimate LLPS propensity and condensed-phase concentrations quantitatively because they do not account for ion condensation [99]—which can be severe for small ions with more than ±1 charge valencies as in the case of condensed [Caprin1] ≳ 120 mM in Fig. 2i–l, our present rG-RPA-predicted semi-quantitative trends are consistent with experiments indicating “

      In addition, this limitation of polymer field theories is also mentioned earlier in the text on p. 6, lines 30–31.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) he current version of the paper goes through many different methodologies, but how these methods complement or overlap in terms of their applicability to the problem at hand may not be so clear. This can be especially difficult for readers not well-versed in these methods. I suggest the authors summarize this somewhere in the paper.

      As mentioned above in response to Reviewer #1, we have now added a subsection with heading “Overview of key observations from complementary approaches” at the beginning of the “Results” section on p. 6 (lines 18–37) and the first line of p. 7 to make our paper more accessible to readers who might not be well-versed in the various theoretical and computational techniques. A few sentences to summarize our key results are added as well to the first paragraph of “Discussion” (p. 18, lines 23–26).

      (2) It wasn’t clear if the authors obtained LCST-type behavior in Figure 1d or if another phenomenon is responsible for the non-monotonic change in dense phase concentrations. At the very least, the authors should comment on the possibility of observing LCST behavior using the rG-RPA model and if modifications are needed to make the theory more appropriate for capturing LCST.

      As mentioned above in response to Reviewer #1, the discussion regarding possible LCSTtype behanvior in Fig. 1d is now expanded to include two possible physical origins: (i) hydrophobicity-like temperature-dependent effective interactions, and (ii) formation of heterogeneous, more open structures in the condensed phase at low temperatures. Three additional references [109, 110, 111] (from the Dill, Chan, and Panagiotopoulos group respectively) are now included to support the expanded discussion. Again, the modified discussion is as follows:

      “Interestingly, the decrease in some of the condensed-phase [pY-Caprin1]s with decreasing T (orange and green symbols for ≲ 20◦C in Fig. 1d trending toward slightly lower [pY-Caprin1]) may suggest a hydrophobicity-driven lower critical solution temperature (LCST)-like reduction of LLPS propensity as temperature approaches ∼ 0◦C as in cold denaturation of globular proteins [7,23] though the hypothetical LCST is below 0◦C and therefore not experimentally accessible. If that is the case, the LLPS region would resemble those with both an UCST and a LCST [4]. As far as simple modeling is concerned, such a feature may be captured by a FH model wherein interchain contacts are favored by entropy at intermediate to low temperatures and by enthalpy at high temperatures, thus entailing a heat capacity contribution in χ(T), with [7,109,110] beyond the temperature-independent ϵ<sub>h</sub> and ϵ<sub>s</sub> used in Fig. 1c,d and Fig. 2. Alternatively, a reduction in overall condensed-phase concentration can also be caused by formation of heterogeneous locally organized structures with large voids at low temperatures even when interchain interactions are purely enthalpic (Fig. 4 of ref. [111]).”

      (3) In Figures 4c and 4d, ionic density profiles could be shown as a separate zoomed-in version to make it easier to see the results.

      This is an excellent suggestion. Two such panels are now added to Fig. 4 (p. 40) as parts (g) and (h).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I would suggest authors make some minor edits as noted here.

      (1) Please note down the chi values that were used when fitting experimental phase diagrams with rG-RPA theory in Figure 2a,b. At present there aren’t too many such values available in the literature and reporting these would help to get an estimate of effective chi values when electrostatics is appropriately modeled using rG-RPA.

      The χ(T) values and their enthalpic and entropic components ϵh and ϵs used to fit the experimental data in Fig. 1c,d are now stated in the caption for Fig. 1 (p. 37). Same fitted χ(T) values are used in Fig. 2 (p. 38) as it is now stated in the revised caption for Fig. 2. Please note that for clarity we have now changed the notation from ∆h and ∆s in our originally submitted manuscript to ϵh and ϵs in the revised text (p. 7, last line) as well as in the revised figure captions to conform to the notation in our previous works [18, 71].

      (2) Authors note “monovalent positive salt ions such as Na+ can be attracted, somewhat counterintuitively, into biomolecular condensates scaffolded by positively-charged polyelectrolytic IDRs in the presence of divalent counterions”. This may be due to the fact that the divalent negative counterions present in the dense phase (as seen in the ternary phase diagrams) also recruit a small amount of Na+.

      The reviewer’s comment is valid, as a physical explanation for this prediction is called for. Accordingly, the following sentence is added to p. 10, lines 27–29:

      “This phenomenon arises because the positively charge monovalent salt ions are attracted to the negatively charged divalent counterions in the protein-condensed phase.”

      (3) In the discussion where authors contrast the LLPS propensity of Caprin1 against FUS, TDP43, Brd4, etc, they correctly note majority of these other proteins have low net charge and possibly higher non-electrostatic interaction that can promote LLPS at room temperature even in the absence of salt. It is also worth noting if some of these proteins were forced to undergo LLPS with crowding which is sometimes typical. A quick literature search will make this clear.

      A careful reading of the work in question (Krainer et al., ref. 50) does not suggest that crowders were used to promote LLPS for the proteins the authors studied. Nonetheless, the reviewer’s point regarding the potential importance of crowder effects is well taken. Accordingly, crowder effects are now mentioned briefly in the Introduction (p. 4, line 13), with three additional references on the impact of crowding on LLPS added [30–32] (from the Spruijt, Mukherjee, and Rakshit groups respectively). In this connection, to provide a broader historical context to the introductory discussion of electrostatics effects in biomolecular processes in general, two additional influential reviews (from the Honig and Zhou groups respectively) are now cited as well [15, 16].

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors used structural and biophysical methods to provide insight into Parkin regulation. The breadth of data supporting their findings was impressive and generally well-orchestrated. Still, the impact of their results builds on recent structural studies and the stated impact is based on these prior works.

      Strengths:

      (1) After reading through the paper, the major findings are:

      - RING2 and pUbl compete for binding to RING0.

      - Parkin can dimerize.

      - ACT plays an important role in enzyme kinetics.

      (2) The use of molecular scissors in their construct represents a creative approach to examining inter-domain interactions.

      (3) From my assessment, the experiments are well-conceived and executed.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive remark and extremely helpful suggestions.

      Weaknesses:

      The manuscript, as written, is NOT for a general audience. Admittedly, I am not an expert on Parkin structure and function, but I had to do a lot of homework to try to understand the underlying rationale and impact. This reflects, I think, that the work generally represents an incremental advance on recent structural findings.

      To this point, it is hard to understand the impact of this work without more information highlighting the novelty. There are several structures of Parkin in various auto-inhibited states, and it was hard to delineate how this is different.

      For the sake of the general audience, we have included all the details of Parkin structures and conformations seen (Extended Fig. 1). The structures in the present study are to validate the biophysical/biochemical experiments, highlighting key findings. For example, we solved the phospho-Parkin (complex with pUb) structure after treatment with 3C protease (Fig. 2C), which washes off the pUbl-linker, as shown in Fig 2B. The structure of the pUbl-linker depleted phospho-Parkin-pUb complex showed that RING2 returned to the closed state (Fig. 2C), which is confirmation of the SEC assay in Fig. 2B. Similarly, the structure of the pUbl-linker depleted phospho-Parkin R163D/K211N-pUb complex (Fig. 3C), was done to validate the SEC data showing displacement of pUbl-linker is independent of pUbl interaction with the basic patch on RING0 (Fig. 3B). In addition, the latter structure also revealed a new donor ubiquitin binding pocket in the linker (connecting REP and RING2) region of Parkin (Fig. 9). Similarly, trans-complex structure of phospho-Parkin (Fig. 4D) was done to validate the biophysical data (Fig. 4A-C, Fig. 5A-D) showing trans-complex between phospho-Parkin and native Parkin. The latter also confirmed that the trans-complex was mediated by interactions between pUbl and the basic patch on RING0 (Fig. 4D). Furthermore, we noticed that the ACT region was disordered in the trans-complex between phospho-Parkin (1-140 + 141-382 + pUb) (Fig. 8A) which had ACT from the trans molecule, indicating ACT might be present in the cis molecule. The latter was validated from the structure of trans-complex between phospho-Parkin with cis ACT (1-76 + 77-382 + pUb) (Fig. 8C), showing the ordered ACT region. The structural finding was further validated by biochemical assays (Fig. 8 D-F, Extended Data Fig. 9C-E).

      The structure of TEV-treated R0RBR (TEV) (Extended Data Fig. 4C) was done to ensure that the inclusion of TEV and treatment with TEV protease did not perturb Parkin folding, an important control for our biophysical experiments.

      As noted, I appreciated the use of protease sites in the fusion protein construct. It is unclear how the loop region might affect the protein structure and function. The authors worked to demonstrate that this did not introduce artifacts, but the biological context is missing.

      We thank the reviewer for appreciating the use of protease sites in the fusion protein construct.  Protease sites were used to overcome the competing mode of binding that makes interactions very transient and beyond the detection limit of methods such as ITC or SEC. While these interactions are quite transient in nature, they could still be useful for the activation of various Parkin isoforms that lack either the Ubl domain or RING2 domain (Extended Data Fig. 6, Fig. 10). Also, our Parkin localization assays also suggest an important role of these interactions in the recruitment of Parkin molecules to the damaged mitochondria (Fig. 6).

      While it is likely that the binding is competitive between the Ubl and RING2 domains, the data is not quantitative. Is it known whether the folding of the distinct domains is independent? Or are there interactions that alter folding? It seems plausible that conformational rearrangements may invoke an orientation of domains that would be incompatible. The biological context for the importance of this interaction was not clear to me.

      This is a great point. In the revised manuscript, we have included quantitative data between phospho-Parkin and untethered ∆Ubl-Parkin (TEV) (Fig. 5B) showing similar interactions using phospho-Parkin K211N and untethered ∆Ubl-Parkin (TEV) (Fig. 4B). Folding of Ubl domain or various combinations of RING domains lacking Ubl seems okay. Also, folding of the RING2 domain on its own appears to be fine. However, human Parkin lacking the RING2 domain seems to have some folding issues, majorly due to exposure of hydrophobic pocket on RING0, also suggested by previous efforts (Gladkova et al.ref. 24, Sauve et al. ref. 29).  The latter could be overcome by co-expression of RING2 lacking Parkin construct with PINK1 (Sauve et al. ref. 29) as phospho-Ubl binds on the same hydrophobic pocket on RING0 where RING2 binds. A drastic reduction in the melting temperature of phospho-Parkin (Gladkova et al.ref. 24), very likely due to exposure of hydrophobic surface between RING0 and RING2, correlates with the folding issues of RING0 exposed human Parkin constructs.

      From the biological context, the competing nature between phospho-Ubl and RING2 domains could block the non-specific interaction of phosphorylated-ubiquitin-like proteins (phospho-Ub or phospho-NEDD8) with RING0 (Lenka et al. ref. 33), during Parkin activation. 

      (5) What is the rationale for mutating Lys211 to Asn? Were other mutations tried? Glu? Ala? Just missing the rationale. I think this may have been identified previously in the field, but not clear what this mutation represents biologically.

      Lys211Asn is a Parkinson’s disease mutation; therefore, we decided to use the same mutation for biophysical studies.  

      I was confused about how the phospho-proteins were generated. After looking through the methods, there appear to be phosphorylation experiments, but it is unclear what the efficiency was for each protein (i.e. what % gets modified). In the text, the authors refer to phospho-Parkin (T270R, C431A), but not clear how these mutations might influence this process. I gather that these are catalytically inactive, but it is unclear to me how this is catalyzing the ubiquitination in the assay.

      This is an excellent question. Because different phosphorylation statuses would affect the analysis, we ensured complete phosphorylation status using Phos-Tag SDS-PAGE, as shown below.

      Author response image 1.

      Our biophysical experiments in Fig. 5C show that trans complex formation is mediated by interactions between the basic patch (comprising K161, R163, K211) on RING0 and phospho-Ubl domain in trans. These interactions result in the displacement of RING2 (Fig. 5C). Parkin activation is mediated by displacement of RING2 and exposure of catalytic C431 on RING2. While phospho-Parkin T270R/C431A is catalytically dead, the phospho-Ubl domain of phospho-Parkin T270R/C431would bind to the basic patch on RING0 of WT-Parkin resulting in activation of WT-Parkin as shown in Fig. 5E. A schematic figure is shown below to explain the same.

      Author response image 2.

      (7) The authors note that "ACT can be complemented in trans; however, it is more efficient in cis", but it is unclear whether both would be important or if the favored interaction is dominant in a biological context.

      First, this is an excellent question about the biological context of ACT and needs further exploration. While due to the flexible nature of ACT, it can be complemented both in cis and trans, we can only speculate cis interactions between ACT and RING0 could be more relevant from the biological context as during protein synthesis and folding, ACT would be translated before RING2, and thus ACT would occupy the small hydrophobic patch on RING0 in cis. Unpublished data shows the replacement of the ACT region by Biogen compounds to activate Parkin (https://doi.org/10.21203/rs.3.rs-4119143/v1). The latter finding further suggests the flexibility in this region.        

      (8) The authors repeatedly note that this study could aid in the development of small-molecule regulators against Parkin to treat PD, but this is a long way off. And it is not clear from their manuscript how this would be achieved. As stated, this is conjecture.

      As suggested by this reviewer, we have removed this point in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      This manuscript uses biochemistry and X-ray crystallography to further probe the molecular mechanism of Parkin regulation and activation. Using a construct that incorporates cleavage sites between different Parkin domains to increase the local concentration of specific domains (i.e., molecular scissors), the authors suggest that competitive binding between the p-Ubl and RING2 domains for the RING0 domain regulates Parkin activity. Further, they demonstrate that this competition can occur in trans, with a p-Ubl domain of one Parkin molecule binding the RING0 domain of a second monomer, thus activating the catalytic RING1 domain. In addition, they suggest that the ACT domain can similarly bind and activate Parkin in trans, albeit at a lower efficiency than that observed for p-Ubl. The authors also suggest from crystal structure analysis and some biochemical experiments that the linker region between RING2 and repressor elements interacts with the donor ubiquitin to enhance Parkin activity.<br /> Ultimately this manuscript challenges previous work suggesting that the p-Ubl domain does not bind to the Parkin core in the mechanism of Parkin activation. The use of the 'molecular scissors' approach to probe these effects is an interesting approach to probe this type of competitive binding. However, there are issues with the experimental approach manuscript that detract from the overall quality and potential impact of the work.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive remark and constructive suggestions.

      The competitive binding between p-Ubl and RING2 domains for the Parkin core could have been better defined using biophysical and biochemical approaches that explicitly define the relative affinities that dictate these interactions. A better understanding of these affinities could provide more insight into the relative bindings of these domains, especially as it relates to the in trans interactions.

      This is an excellent point regarding the relative affinities of pUbl and RING2 for the Parkin core (lacking Ubl and RING2). While we could purify p-Ubl, we failed to purify human Parkin (lacking RING2 and phospho-Ubl). The latter folding issues were likely due to the exposure of a highly hydrophobic surface on RING0 (as shown below) in the absence of pUbl and RING2 in the R0RB construct. Also, RING2 with an exposed hydrophobic surface would be prone to folding issues, which is not suitable for affinity measurements. A drastic reduction in the melting temperature of phospho-Parkin (Gladkova et al.ref. 24) also highlights the importance of a hydrophobic surface between RING0 and RING2 on Parkin folding/stability. A separate study would be required to try these Parkin constructs from different species and ensure proper folding before using them for affinity measurements.

      Author response image 3.

      I also have concerns about the results of using molecular scissors to 'increase local concentrations' and allow for binding to be observed. These experiments are done primarily using proteolytic cleavage of different domains followed by size exclusion chromatography. ITC experiments suggest that the binding constants for these interactions are in the µM range, although these experiments are problematic as the authors indicate in the text that protein precipitation was observed during these experiments. This type of binding could easily be measured in other assays. My issue relates to the ability of a protein complex (comprising the core and cleaved domains) with a Kd of 1 µM to be maintained in an SEC experiment. The off-rates for these complexes must be exceeding slow, which doesn't really correspond to the low µM binding constants discussed in the text. How do the authors explain this? What is driving the Koff to levels sufficiently slow to prevent dissociation by SEC? Considering that the authors are challenging previous work describing the lack of binding between the p-Ubl domain and the core, these issues should be better resolved in this current manuscript. Further, it's important to have a more detailed understanding of relative affinities when considering the functional implications of this competition in the context of full-length Parkin. Similar comments could be made about the ACT experiments described in the text.

      This is a great point. In the revised manuscript, we repeated ITC measurements in a different buffer system, which gave nice ITC data. In the revised manuscript, we have also performed ITC measurements using native phospho-Parkin. Phospho-Parkin and untethered ∆Ubl-Parkin (TEV) (Fig. 5B) show similar affinities as seen between phospho-Parkin K211N and untethered ∆Ubl-Parkin (TEV) (Fig. 4B). However, Kd values were consistent in the range of 1.0 ± 0.4 µM which could not address the reviewer’s point regarding slow off-rate. The crystal structure of the trans-complex of phospho-Parkin shows several hydrophobic and ionic interactions between p-Ubl and Parkin core, suggesting a strong interaction and, thus, justifying the co-elution on SEC. Additionally, ITC measurements between E2-Ub and P-Parkin-pUb show similar affinity (Kd = 0.9 ± 0.2 µM) (Kumar et al., 2015, EMBO J.), and yet they co-elute on SEC (Kumar et al., 2015, EMBO J.).

      Ultimately, this work does suggest additional insights into the mechanism of Parkin activation that could contribute to the field. There is a lot of information included in this manuscript, giving it breadth, albeit at the cost of depth for the study of specific interactions. Further, I felt that the authors oversold some of their data in the text, and I'd recommend being a bit more careful when claiming an experiment 'confirms' a specific model. In many cases, there are other models that could explain similar results. For example, in Figure 1C, the authors state that their crystal structure 'confirms' that "RING2 is transiently displaced from the RING0 domain and returns to its original position after washing off the p-Ubl linker". However, it isn't clear to me that RING2 ever dissociated when prepared this way. While there are issues with the work that I feel should be further addressed with additional experiments, there are interesting mechanistic details suggested by this work that could improve our understanding of Parkin activation. However, the full impact of this work won't be fully appreciated until there is a more thorough understanding of the regulation and competitive binding between p-Ubl and RIGN2 to RORB both in cis and in trans.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive comment. In the revised manuscript, we have included the reviewer’s suggestion. The conformational changes in phospho-Parkin were established from the SEC assay (Fig. 2A and Fig. 2B), which show displacement/association of phospho-Ubl or RING2 after treatment of phospho-Parkin with 3C and TEV, respectively. For crystallization, we first phosphorylated Parkin, where RING2 is displaced due to phospho-Ubl (as shown in SEC), followed by treatment with 3C protease, which led to pUbl wash-off. The Parkin core separated from phospho-Ubl on SEC was used for crystallization and structure determination in Fig. 2C, where RING2 returned to the RING0 pocket, which confirms SEC data (Fig. 2B).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In their manuscript "Additional feedforward mechanism of Parkin activation via binding of phospho-UBL and RING0 in trans", Lenka et al present data that could suggest an "in trans" model of Parkin ubiquitination activity. Parkin is an intensely studied E3 ligase implicated in mitophagy, whereby missense mutations to the PARK2 gene are known to cause autosomal recessive juvenile parkinsonism. From a mechanistic point of view, Parkin is extremely complex. Its activity is tightly controlled by several modes of auto-inhibition that must be released by queues of mitochondrial damage. While the general overview of Parkin activation has been mapped out in recent years, several details have remained murky. In particular, whether Parkin dimerizes as part of its feed-forward signaling mechanism, and whether said dimerization can facilitate ligase activation, has remained unclear. Here, Lenka et al. use various truncation mutants of Parkin in an attempt to understand the likelihood of dimerization (in support of an "in trans" model for catalysis).

      Strengths:

      The results are bolstered by several distinct approaches including analytical SEC with cleavable Parkin constructs, ITC interaction studies, ubiquitination assays, protein crystallography, and cellular localization studies.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive remark.

      Weaknesses:

      As presented, however, the storyline is very confusing to follow and several lines of experimentation felt like distractions from the primary message. Furthermore, many experiments could only indirectly support the author's conclusions, and therefore the final picture of what new features can be firmly added to the model of Parkin activation and function is unclear.

      We thank the reviewer for their constructive criticism, which has helped us to improve the quality of this manuscript.

      Major concerns:

      (1) This manuscript solves numerous crystal structures of various Parkin components to help support their idea of in trans transfer. The way these structures are presented more resemble models and it is unclear from the figures that these are new complexes solved in this work, and what new insights can be gleaned from them.

      The structures in the present study are to validate the biophysical/biochemical experiments highlighting key findings. For example, we solved the phospho-Parkin (complex with pUb) structure after treatment with 3C protease (Fig. 2C), which washes off the pUbl-linker, as shown in Fig. 2B. The structure of pUbl-linker depleted phospho-Parkin-pUb complex showed that RING2 returned to the closed state (Fig. 2C), which is confirmation of the SEC assay in Fig. 2B. Similarly, the structure of the pUbl-linker depleted phospho-Parkin R163D/K211N-pUb complex (Fig. 3C), was done to validate the SEC data showing displacement of pUbl-linker is independent of pUbl interaction with the basic patch on RING0 (Fig. 3B). In addition, the latter structure also revealed a new donor ubiquitin binding pocket in the linker (connecting REP and RING2) region of Parkin (Fig. 9). Similarly, trans-complex structure of phospho-Parkin (Fig. 4D) was done to validate the biophysical data (Fig. 4A-C, Fig. 5A-D) showing trans-complex between phospho-Parkin and native Parkin. The latter also confirmed that the trans-complex was mediated by interactions between pUbl and the basic patch on RING0 (Fig. 4D). Furthermore, we noticed that the ACT region was disordered in the trans-complex between phospho-Parkin (1-140 + 141-382 + pUb) (Fig. 8A) which had ACT from the trans molecule, indicating ACT might be present in the cis molecule. The latter was validated from the structure of trans-complex between phospho-Parkin with cis ACT (1-76 + 77-382 + pUb) (Fig. 8C), showing the ordered ACT region. The structural finding was further validated by biochemical assays (Fig. 8 D-F, Extended Data Fig. 9C-E).

      The structure of TEV-treated R0RBR (TEV) (Extended Data Fig. 4C) was done to ensure that the inclusion of TEV and treatment with TEV protease did not perturb Parkin folding, an important control for our biophysical experiments.

      (2) There are no experiments that definitively show the in trans activation of Parkin. The binding experiments and size exclusion chromatography are a good start, but the way these experiments are performed, they'd be better suited as support for a stronger experiment showing Parkin dimerization. In addition, the rationale for an in trans activation model is not convincingly explained until the concept of Parkin isoforms is introduced in the Discussion. The authors should consider expanding this concept into other parts of the manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for appreciating the Parkin dimerization. Our biophysical data in Fig. 5C shows that Parkin dimerization is mediated by interactions between phospho-Ubl and RING0 in trans, leading to the displacement of RING2. However, Parkin K211N (on RING0) mutation perturbs interaction with phospho-Parkin and leads to loss of Parkin dimerization and loss of RING2 displacement (Fig. 5C). The interaction between pUbl and K211 pocket on RING0 leads to the displacement of RING2 resulting in Parkin activation as catalytic residue C431 on RING2 is exposed for catalysis. The biophysical experiment is further confirmed by a biochemical experiment where the addition of catalytically in-active phospho-Parkin T270R/C431A activates autoinhibited WT-Parkin in trans using the mechanism as discussed (a schematic representation also shown in Author response image 2).

      We thank this reviewer regarding Parkin isoforms. In the revised manuscript, we have included Parkin isoforms in the results section, too.

      (2a) For the in trans activation experiment using wt Parkin and pParkin (T270R/C431A) (Figure 3D), there needs to be a large excess of pParkin to stimulate the catalytic activity of wt Parkin. This experiment has low cellular relevance as these point mutations are unlikely to occur together to create this nonfunctional pParkin protein. In the case of pParkin activating wt Parkin (regardless of artificial point mutations inserted to study specifically the in trans activation), if there needs to be much more pParkin around to fully activate wt Parkin, isn't it just more likely that the pParkin would activate in cis?

      To test phospho-Parkin as an activator of Parkin in trans, we wanted to use the catalytically inactive version of phospho-Parkin to avoid the background activity of p-Parkin. While it is true that a large excess of pParkin (T270R/C431A) is required to activate WT-Parkin in the in vitro set-up, it is not very surprising as in WT-Parkin, the unphosphorylated Ubl domain would block the E2 binding site on RING1. Also, due to interactions between pParkin (T270R/C431A) molecules, the net concentration of pParkin (T270R/C431A) as an activator would be much lower. However, the Ubl blocking E2 binding site on RING1 won’t be an issue between phospho-Parkin molecules or between Parkin isoforms (lacking Ubl domain or RING2).

      (2ai) Another underlying issue with this experiment is that the authors do not consider the possibility that the increased activity observed is a result of increased "substrate" for auto-ubiquitination, as opposed to any role in catalytic activation. Have the authors considered looking at Miro as a substrate in order to control for this?

      This is quite an interesting point. However, this will be only possible if Parkin is ubiquitinated in trans, as auto-ubiquitination is possible with active Parkin and not with catalytically dead (phospho-Parkin T270R, C431A) or autoinhibited (WT-Parkin). Also, in the previous version of the manuscript, where we used only phospho-Ubl as an activator of Parkin in trans, we tested Miro1 ubiquitination and auto-ubiquitination, and the results were the same (Author response image 4).

      Author response image 4.

      (2b) The authors mention a "higher net concentration" of the "fused domains" with RING0, and use this to justify artificially cleaving the Ubl or RING2 domains from the Parkin core. This fact should be moot. In cells, it is expected there will only be a 1:1 ratio of the Parkin core with the Ubl or RING2 domains. To date, there is no evidence suggesting multiple pUbls or multiple RING2s can bind the RING0 binding site. In fact, the authors here even show that either the RING2 or pUbl needs to be displaced to permit the binding of the other domain. That being said, there would be no "higher net concentration" because there would always be the same molar equivalents of Ubl, RING2, and the Parkin core.

      We apologize for the confusion. “Higher net concentration” is with respect to fused domains versus the domain provided in trans. Due to the competing nature of the interactions between pUbl/RING2 and RING0, the interactions are too transient and beyond the detection limit of the biophysical techniques. While the domains are fused (for example, RING0-RING2 in the same polypeptide) in a polypeptide, their effective concentrations are much higher than those (for example, pUbl) provided in trans; thus, biophysical methods fail to detect the interaction. Treatment with protease solves the above issue due to the higher net concentration of the fused domain, and trans interactions can be measured using biophysical techniques. However, the nature of these interactions and conformational changes is very transient, which is also suggested by the data. Therefore, Parkin molecules will never remain associated; rather, Parkin will transiently interact and activate Parkin molecules in trans.

      (2c) A larger issue remaining in terms of Parkin activation is the lack of clarity surrounding the role of the linker (77-140); particularly whether its primary role is to tether the Ubl to the cis Parkin molecule versus a role in permitting distal interactions to a trans molecule. The way the authors have conducted the experiments presented in Figure 2 limits the possible interactions that the activated pUbl could have by (a) ablating the binding site in the cis molecule with the K211N mutation; (b) further blocking the binding site in the cis molecule by keeping the RING2 domain intact. These restrictions to the cis parkin molecule effectively force the pUbl to bind in trans. A competition experiment to demonstrate the likelihood of cis or trans activation in direct comparison with each other would provide stronger evidence for trans activation.

      This is an excellent point. In the revised manuscript, we have performed experiments using native phospho-Parkin (Revised Figure 5), and the results are consistent with those in Figure 2 ( Revised Figure 4), where we used the K211N mutation.

      (3) A major limitation of this study is that the authors interpret structural flexibility from experiments that do not report directly on flexibility. The analytical SEC experiments report on binding affinity and more specifically off-rates. By removing the interdomain linkages, the accompanying on-rate would be drastically impacted, and thus the observations are disconnected from a native scenario. Likewise, observations from protein crystallography can be consistent with flexibility, but certainly should not be directly interpreted in this manner. Rigorous determination of linker and/or domain flexibility would require alternative methods that measure this directly.

      We also agree with the reviewer that these methods do not directly capture structural flexibility. Also, rigorous determination of linker flexibility would require alternative methods that measure this directly. However, due to the complex nature of interactions and technical limitations, breaking the interdomain linkages was the best possible way to capture interactions in trans. Interestingly, all previous methods that report cis interactions between pUbl and RING0 also used a similar approach (Gladkova et al.ref. 24, Sauve et al. ref. 29).  

      (4) The analysis of the ACT element comes across as incomplete. The authors make a point of a competing interaction with Lys48 of the Ubl domain, but the significance of this is unclear. It is possible that this observation could be an overinterpretation of the crystal structures. Additionally, the rationale for why the ACT element should or shouldn't contribute to in trans activation of different Parkin constructs is not clear. Lastly, the conclusion that this work explains the evolutionary nature of this element in chordates is highly overstated.

      We agree with the reviewer that the significance of Lys48 is unclear. We have presented this just as one of the observations from the crystal structure. As the reviewer suggested, we have removed the sentence about the evolutionary nature of this element from the revised manuscript.

      (5) The analysis of the REP linker element also seems incomplete. The authors identify contacts to a neighboring pUb molecule in their crystal structure, but the connection between this interface (which could be a crystallization artifact) and their biochemical activity data is not straightforward. The analysis of flexibility within this region using crystallographic and AlphaFold modeling observations is very indirect. The authors also draw parallels with linker regions in other RBR ligases that are involved in recognizing the E2-loaded Ub. Firstly, it is not clear from the text or figures whether the "conserved" hydrophobic within the linker region is involved in these alternative Ub interfaces. And secondly, the authors appear to jump to the conclusion that the Parkin linker region also binds an E2-loaded Ub, even though their original observation from the crystal structure seems inconsistent with this. The entire analysis feels very preliminary and also comes across as tangential to the primary storyline of in trans Parkin activation.

      We agree with the reviewer that crystal structure data and biochemical data are not directly linked. In the revised manuscript, we have also highlighted the conserved hydrophobic in the linker region at the ubiquitin interface (Fig. 9C and Extended Data Fig. 11A), which was somehow missed in the original manuscript. We want to add that a very similar analysis and supporting experiments identified donor ubiquitin-binding sites on the IBR and helix connecting RING1-IBR (Kumar et al., Nature Str. and Mol. Biol., 2017), which several other groups later confirmed. In the mentioned study, the Ubl domain of Parkin from the symmetry mate Parkin molecule was identified as a mimic of “donor ubiquitin” on IBR and helix connecting RING1-IBR.

      In the present study, a neighboring pUb molecule in the crystal structure is identified as a donor ubiquitin mimic (Fig. 9C) by supporting biophysical/biochemical experiments. First, we show that mutation of I411A in the REP linker of Parkin perturbs Parkin interaction with E2~Ub (donor) (Fig. 9F). Another supporting experiment was performed using a Ubiquitin-VS probe assay, which is independent of E2. Assays using Ubiquitin-VS show that I411A mutation in the REP-RING2 linker perturbs Parkin charging with Ubiquitin-VS (Extended Data Fig. 11 B). Furthermore, the biophysical data showing loss of Parkin interaction with donor ubiquitin is further supported by ubiquitination assays. Mutations in the REP-RING2 linker perturb the Parkin activity (Fig. 9E), confirming biophysical data. This is further confirmed by mutations (L71A or L73A) on ubiquitin (Extended Data Fig. 11C), resulting in loss of Parkin activity. The above experiments nicely establish the role of the REP-RING2 linker in interaction with donor ubiquitin, which is consistent with other RBRs (Extended Data Fig. 11A).

      While we agree with the reviewer that this appears tangential to the primary storyline in trans-Parkin activation, we decided to include this data because it could be of interest to the field.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) For clarity, a schematic of the domain architecture of Parkin would be helpful at the outset in the main figures. This will help with the introduction to better understand the protein organization. This is lost in the Extended Figure in my opinion.

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting this, which we have included in Figure 1 of the revised manuscript.

      (2) Related to the competition between the Ubl and RING2 domains, can competition be shown through another method? SPR, ITC, etc? ITC was used in other experiments, but only in the context of mutations (Lys211Asn)? Can this be done with WT sequence?

      This is an excellent suggestion. In the revised Figure 5, we have performed ITC experiment using WT Parkin, and the results are consistent with what we observed using Lys211Asn Parkin.

      (3) The authors also note that "the AlphaFold model shows a helical structure in the linker region of Parkin (Extended Data Figure 10C), further confirming the flexible nature of this region"... but the secondary structure would not be inherently flexible. This is confusing.

      The flexibility is in terms of the conformation of this linker region observed under the open or closed state of Parkin. In the revised manuscript, we have explained this point more clearly.

      (4) The manuscript needs extensive revision to improve its readability. Minor grammatical mistakes were prevalent throughout.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this and we have corrected these in the revised manuscript.

      (5) The confocal images are nice, but inset panels may help highlight the regions of interest (ROIs).

      This is corrected in the revised manuscript.

      (6) Trans is misspelled ("tans") towards the end of the second paragraph on page 16.

      This is corrected in the revised manuscript.

      (7) The schematics are helpful, but some of the lettering in Figure 2 is very small.

      This is corrected in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) A significant portion of the results section refers to the supplement, making the overall readability very difficult.

      We accept this issue as a lot of relevant data could not be added to the main figures and thus ended up in the supplement.  In the revised manuscript, we have moved some of the supplementary figures to the main figures.

      (2) Interpretation of the experiments utilizing many different Parkin constructs and cleavage scenarios (particularly the SEC and crystallography experiments) is extremely difficult. The work would benefit from a layout of the Parkin model system, highlighting cleavage sites, key domain terminology, and mutations used in the study, presented together and early on in the manuscript. Using this to identify a simpler system of referencing Parkin constructs would also be a large improvement.

      This is a great suggestion. We have included these points in the revised manuscript, which has improved the readability.

      (3) Lines 81-83; the authors say they "demonstrate the conformational changes in Parkin during the activation process", but fail to show any actual conformational changes. Further, much of what is demonstrated in this work (in terms of crystal structures) corroborates existing literature. The authors should use caution not to overstate their original conclusions in light of the large body of work in this area.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this. We have corrected the above statement in the revised manuscript to indicate that we meant it in the context of trans conformational changes.

      (4) Line 446 and 434; there is a discrepancy about which amino acid is present at residue 409. Is this a K408 typo? The authors also present mutational work on K416, but this residue is not shown in the structure panel.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this. In the revised manuscript, we have corrected these typos.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Reviewer 1 (Public Review):

      I want to reiterate my comment from the first round of reviews: that I am insufficiently familiar with the intricacies of Maxwell’s equations to assess the validity of the assumptions and the equations being used by WETCOW. The work ideally needs assessing by someone more versed in that area, especially given the potential impact of this method if valid.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s candor. Unfortunately, familiarity with Maxwell’s equations is an essential prerequisite for assessing the veracity of our approach and our claims.

      Effort has been made in these revisions to improve explanations of the proposed approach (a lot of new text has been added) and to add new simulations. However, the authors have still not compared their method on real data with existing standard approaches for reconstructing data from sensor to physical space. Refusing to do so because existing approaches are deemed inappropriate (i.e. they “are solving a different problem”) is illogical.

      Without understanding the importance of our model for brain wave activity (cited in the paper) derived from Maxwell’s equations in inhomogeneous and anisotropic brain tissue, it is not possible to critically evaluate the fundamental difference between our method and the standard so-called “source localization” method which the Reviewer feels it is important to compare our results with. Our method is not “source localization” which is a class of techniques based on an inappropriate model for static brain activity (static dipoles sprinkled sparsely in user-defined areas of interest). Just because a method is “standard” does not make it correct. Rather, we are reconstructing a whole brain, time dependent electric field potential based upon a model for brain wave activity derived from first principles. It is comparing two methods that are “solving different problems” that is, by definition, illogical.

      Similarly, refusing to compare their method with existing standard approaches for spatio-temporally describing brain activity, just because existing approaches are deemed inappropriate, is illogical.

      Contrary to the Reviewer’s assertion, we do compare our results with three existing methods for describing spatiotemporal variations of brain activity.

      First, Figures 1, 2, and 6 compare the spatiotemporal variations in brain activity between our method and fMRI, the recognized standard for spatiotemporal localization of brain activity. The statistical comparison in Fig 3 is a quantitative demonstration of the similarity of the activation patterns. It is important to note that these data are simultaneous EEG/fMRI in order to eliminate a variety of potential confounds related to differences in experimental conditions.

      Second, Fig 4 (A-D) compares our method with the most reasonable “standard” spatiotemporal localization method for EEG: mapping of fields in the outer cortical regions of the brain detected at the surface electrodes to the surface of the skull. The consistency of both the location and sign of the activity changes detected by both methods in a “standard” attention paradigm is clearly evident. Further confirmation is provided by comparison of our results with simultaneous EEG/fMRI spatial reconstructions (E-F) where the consistency of our reconstructions between subjects is shown in Fig 5.

      Third, measurements from intra-cranial electrodes, the most direct method for validation, are compared with spatiotemporal estimates derived from surface electrodes and shown to be highly correlated.

      For example, the authors say that “it’s not even clear what one would compare [between the new method and standard approaches]”. How about:

      (1) Qualitatively: compare EEG activation maps. I.e. compare what you would report to a researcher about the brain activity found in a standard experimental task dataset (e.g. their gambling task). People simply want to be able to judge, at least qualitatively on the same data, what the most equivalent output would be from the two approaches. Note, both approaches do not need to be done at the same spatial resolution if there are constraints on this for the comparison to be useful.

      (2) Quantitatively: compare the correlation scores between EEG activation maps and fMRI activation maps

      These comparison were performed and already in the paper.

      (1) Fig 4 compares the results with a standard attention paradigm (data and interpretation from Co-author Dr Martinez, who is an expert in both EEG and attention). Additionally, Fig 12 shows detected regions of increased activity in a well-known brain circuit from an experimental task (’reward’) with data provided by Co-author Dr Krigolson, an expert in reward circuitry.

      (2) Correlation scores between EEG and fMRI are shown in Fig 3.

      (3) Very high correlation between the directly measured field from intra-cranial electrodes in an epilepsy patient and those estimated from only the surface electrodes is shown in Fig 9.

      There are an awful lot of typos in the new text in the paper. I would expect a paper to have been proof read before submitting.

      We have cleaned up the typos.

      The abstract claims that there is a “direct comparison with standard state-of-the-art EEG analysis in a well-established attention paradigm”, but no actual comparison appears to have been completed in the paper.

      On the contrary, as mentioned above, Fig 4 compares the results of our method with the state-of-the-art surface spatial mapping analysis, with the state-of-the-art time-frequency analysis, and with the state-of-the-art fMRI analysis

      Reviewer 2 (Public Review):

      This is a major rewrite of the paper. The authors have improved the discourse vastly.

      There is now a lot of didactics included but they are not always relevant to the paper.

      The technique described in the paper does in fact leverage several novel methods we have developed over the years for analyzing multimodal space-time imaging data. Each of these techniques has been described in detail in separate publications cited in the current paper. However, the Reviewers’ criticisms stated that the methods were non-standard and they were unfamiliar with them. In lieu of the Reviewers’ reading the original publications, we added a significant amount of text indeed intended to be didactic. However, we can assume the Reviewer that nothing presented was irrelevant to the paper. We certainly had no desire to make the paper any longer than it needed to be.

      The section on Maxwell’s equation does a disservice to the literature in prior work in bioelectromagnetism and does not even address the issues raised in classic text books by Plonsey et al. There is no logical “backwardness” in the literature. They are based on the relative values of constants in biological tissues.

      This criticism highlights the crux of our paper. Contrary to the assertion that we have ignored the work of Plonsey, we have referenced it in the new additional text detailing how we have constructed Maxwell’s Equations appropriate for brain tissue, based on the model suggested by Plonsey that allows the magnetic field temporal variations to be ignored but not the time-dependence electric fields.

      However, the assumption ubiquitous in the vast prior literature of bioelectricity in the brain that the electric field dynamics can be “based on the relative values of constants in biological tissues”, as the Reviewer correctly summarizes, is precisely the problem. Using relative average tissue properties does not take into account the tissue anisotropy necessary to properly account for correct expressions for the electric fields. As our prior publications have demonstrated in detail, taking into account the inhomogeneity and anisotropy of brain tissue in the solution to Maxwell’s Equations is necessary for properly characterizing brain electrical fields, and serves as the foundation of our brain wave theory. This led to the discovery of a new class of brain waves (weakly evanescent transverse cortical waves, WETCOW).

      It is this brain wave model that is used to estimate the dynamic electric field potential from the measurements made by the EEG electrode array. The standard model that ignores these tissue details leads to the ubiquitous “quasi-static approximation” that leads to the conclusion that the EEG signal cannot be spatial reconstructed. It is indeed this critical gap in the existing literature that is the central new idea in the paper.

      There are reinventions of many standard ideas in terms of physics discourses, like Bayesian theory or PCA etc.

      The discussion of Bayesian theory and PCA is in response to the Reviewer complaint that they were unfamiliar with our entropy field decomposition (EFD) method and the request that we compare it with other “standard” methods. Again, we have published extensively on this method (as referenced in the manuscript) and therefore felt that extensive elaboration was unnecessary. Having been asked to provide such elaboration and then being pilloried for it therefore feels somewhat inappropriate in our view. This is particularly disappointing as the Reviewer claims we are presenting “standard” ideas when in fact the EFD is new general framework we developed to overcome the deficiencies in standard “statistical” and probabilistic data analysis methods that are insufficient for characterizing non-linear, nonperiodic, interacting fields that are the rule, rather than the exception, in complex dynamical systems, such as brain electric fields (or weather, or oceans, or ....).

      The EFD is indeed a Bayesian framework, as this is the fundamental starting point for probability theory, but it is developed in a unique and more general fashion than previous data analysis methods. (Again, this is detailed in several references in the papers bibliography. The Reviewer’s requested that an explanation be included in the present paper, however, so we did so). First, Bayes Theorem is expressed in terms of a field theory that allows an arbitrary number of field orders and coupling terms. This generality comes with a penalty, which is that it’s unclear how to assess the significance of the essentially infinite number of terms. The second feature is the introduction of a method by which to determine the significant number of terms automatically from the data itself, via the our theory of entropy spectrum pathways (ESP), which is also detailed in a cited publication, and which produces ranked spatiotemporal modes from the data. Rather than being “reinventions of many standard ideas” these are novel theoretical and computational methods that are central to the EEG reconstruction method presented in the paper.

      I think that the paper remains quite opaque and many of the original criticisms remain, especially as they relate to multimodal datasets. The overall algorithm still remains poorly described. benchmarks.

      It’s not clear how to assess the criticisms that the algorithm is poorly described yet there is too much detail provided that is mistakenly assessed as “standard”. Certainly the central wave equations that are estimated from the data are precisely described, so it’s not clear exactly what the Reviewer is referring to.

      The comparisons to benchmark remain unaddressed and the authors state that they couldn’t get Loreta to work and so aborted that. The figures are largely unaltered, although they have added a few more, and do not clearly depict the ideas. Again, no benchmark comparisons are provided to evaluate the results and the performance in comparison to other benchmarks.

      As we have tried to emphasize in the paper, and in the Response to Reviewers, the standard so-called “source localization” methods are NOT a benchmark, as they are solving an inappropriate model for brain activity. Once again, static dipole “sources” arbitrarily sprinkled on pre-defined regions of interest bear little resemblance to observed brain waves, nor to the dynamic electric field wave equations produced by our brain wave theory derived from a proper solution to Maxwell’s equations in the anisotropic and inhomogeneous complex morphology of the brain.

      The comparison with Loreta was not abandoned because we couldn’t get it to work, but because we could not get it to run under conditions that were remotely similar to whole brain activity described by our theory, or, more importantly, by an rationale theory of dynamic brain activity that might reproduce the exceedingly complex electric field activity observed in numerous neuroscience experiments.

      We take issue with the rather dismissive mention of “a few more” figures that “do not clearly depict the idea” when in fact the figures that have been added have demonstrated additional quantitative validation of the method.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer 1 (Public Review):

      The paper proposes a new source reconstruction method for electroencephalography (EEG) data and claims that it can provide far superior spatial resolution than existing approaches and also superior spatial resolution to fMRI. This primarily stems from abandoning the established quasi-static approximation to Maxwell’s equations.<br /> The proposed method brings together some very interesting ideas, and the potential impact is high. However, the work does not provide the evaluations expected when validating a new source reconstruction approach. I cannot judge the success or impact of the approach based on the current set of results. This is very important to rectify, especially given that the work is challenging some long- standing and fundamental assumptions made in the field.

      We appreciate the Reviewer’s efforts in reviewing this paper and have included a significant amount of new text to address their concerns.

      I also find that the clarity of the description of the methods, and how they link to what is shown in the main results hard to follow.

      We have added significantly more detail on the methods, including more accessible explanations of the technical details, and schematic diagrams to visualize the key processing components.

      I am insufficiently familiar with the intricacies of Maxwell’s equations to assess the validity of the assumptions and the equations being used by WETCOW. The work therefore needs assessing by someone more versed in that area. That said, how do we know that the new terms in Maxwell’s equations, i.e. the time-dependent terms that are normally missing from established quasi-static-based approaches, are large enough to need to be considered? Where is the evidence for this?

      The fact that the time-dependent terms are large enough to be considered is essentially the entire focus of the original papers [7,8]. Time-dependent terms in Maxwell’s equations are generally not important for brain electrodynamics at physiological frequencies for homogeneous tissues, but this is not true for areas with stroung inhomogeneity and ansisotropy.

      I have not come across EFD, and I am not sure many in the EEG field will have. To require the reader to appreciate the contributions of WETCOW only through the lens of the unfamiliar (and far from trivial) approach of EFD is frustrating. In particular, what impact do the assumptions of WETCOW make compared to the assumptions of EFD on the overall performance of SPECTRE?

      We have added an entire new section in the Appendix that provides a very basic introduction to EFD and relates it to more commonly known methods, such as Fourier and Independent Components Analyses.

      The paper needs to provide results showing the improvements obtained when WETCOW or EFD are combined with more established and familiar approaches. For example, EFD can be replaced by a first-order vector autoregressive (VAR) model, i.e. y<sub>t</sub> = Ay<sub>t−1</sub> + e<sub>t</sub> (where y<sub>t</sub> is [num<sub>gridpoints</sub> ∗ 1] and A is [num<sub>gridpoints</sub> ∗ num<sub>gridpoints</sub>] of autoregressive parameters).

      The development of EFD, which is independent of WETCOW, stemmed from the necessity of developing a general method for the probabilistic analysis of finitely sampled non-linear interacting fields, which are ubiquitous in measurements of physical systems, of which functional neuroimaging data (fMRI, EEG) are excellent examples. Standard methods (such as VAR) are inadequate in such cases, as discussed in great detail in our EFD publications (e.g., [12,37]). The new appendix on EFD reviews these arguments. It does not make sense to compare EFD with methods which are inappropriate for the data.

      The authors’ decision not to include any comparisons with established source reconstruction approaches does not make sense to me. They attempt to justify this by saying that the spatial resolution of LORETA would need to be very low compared to the resolution being used in SPECTRE, to avoid compute problems. But how does this stop them from using a spatial resolution typically used by the field that has no compute problems, and comparing with that? This would be very informative. There are also more computationally efficient methods than LORETA that are very popular, such as beamforming or minimum norm.

      he primary reason for not comparing with ’source reconstruction’ (SR) methods is that we are are not doing source reconstruction. Our view of brain activity is that it involves continuous dynamical non-linear interacting fields througout the entire brain. Formulating EEG analysis in terms of reconstructing sources is, in our view, like asking ’what are the point sources of a sea of ocean waves’. It’s just not an appropriate physical model. A pre-chosen limited distribution of static dipoles is just a very bad model for brain activity, so much so that it’s not even clear what one would compare. Because in our view, as manifest in our computational implementation, one needs to have a very high density of computational locations throughout the entire brain, including white matter, and the reconstructed modes are waves whose extent can be across the entire brain. Our comments about the low resolution of computational methods for SR techniques really is expressing the more overarching concern that they are not capable of, or even designed for, detecting time-dependent fields of non-linear interacting waves that exist everywhere througout the brain. Moreover, the SR methods always give some answer, but in our view the initial conditions upon which those methods are based (pre-selected regions of activity with a pre-selected number of ’sources’) is a highly influential but artificial set of strong computational constraints that will almost always provide an answer consist with (i.e., biased toward) the expectations of the person formlating the problem, and is therefore potentially misleading.

      In short, something like the following methods needs to be compared:

      (1) Full SPECTRE (EFD plus WETCOW)

      (2) WETCOW + VAR or standard (“simple regression”) techniques

      (3) Beamformer/min norm plus EFD

      (4) Beamformer/min norm plus VAR or standard (“simple regression”) techniques

      The reason that no one has previously ever been able to solve the EEG inverse problem is due to the ubiquitous use of methods that are too ’simple’, i.e., are poor physical models of brain activity. We have spent a decade carefully elucidating the details of this statement in numerous highly technical and careful publications. It therefore serves no purpose to return to the use of these ’simple’ methods for comparison. We do agree, however, that a clearer overview of the advantages of our methods is warranted and have added significant additional text in this revision towards that purpose.

      This would also allow for more illuminating and quantitative comparisons of the real data. For example, a metric of similarity between EEG maps and fMRI can be computed to compare the performance of these methods. At the moment, the fMRI-EEG analysis amounts to just showing fairly similar maps.

      We disagree with this assessment. The correlation coefficient between the spatially localized activation maps is a conservative sufficient statistic for the measure of statistically significant similarity. These numbers were/are reported in the caption to Figure 5, and have now also been moved to, and highlighted in, the main text.

      There are no results provided on simulated data. Simulations are needed to provide quantitative comparisons of the different methods, to show face validity, and to demonstrate unequivocally the new information that SPECTRE can ’potentially’ provide on real data compared to established methods. The paper ideally needs at least 3 types of simulations, where one thing is changed at a time, e.g.:

      (1) Data simulated using WETCOW plus EFD assumptions

      (2) Data simulated using WETCOW plus e.g. VAR assumptions

      (3) Data simulated using standard lead fields (based on the quasi-static Maxwell solutions) plus e.g. VAR assumptions

      These should be assessed with the multiple methods specified earlier. Crucially the assessment should be quantitative showing the ability to recover the ground truth over multiple realisations of realistic noise. This type of assessment of a new source reconstruction method is the expected standard

      We have now provided results on simulated data, along with a discussion on what entails a meaningful simulation comparison. In short, our original paper on the WETCOW theory included a significant number of simulations of predicted results on several spatial and temporal scales. The most relevant simulation data to compare with the SPECTRE imaging results are the cortical wave loop predicted by WETCOW theory and demonstrated via numerical simulation in a realistic brain model derived from high resolution anatomical (HRA) MRI data. The most relevant data with which to compare these simulations are the SPECTRE recontruction from the data that provides the closest approximation to a “Gold Standard” - reconstructions from intra-cranial EEG (iEEG). We have now included results (new Fig 8) that demonstrate the ability of SPECTRE to reconstruct dynamically evolving cortical wave loops in iEEG data acquired in an epilepsy patient that match with the predicted loop predicted theoretically by WETCOW and demonstrated in realistic numerical simulations.

      The suggested comparison with simple regression techniques serves no purpose, as stated above, since that class of analysis techniques was not designed for non-linear, non-Gaussian, coupled interacting fields predicted by the WETCOW model. The explication of this statement is provided in great detail in our publications on the EFD approach and in the new appendix material provided in this revision. The suggested simulation of the dipole (i.e., quasi-static) model of brain activity also serves no purpose, as our WETCOW papers have demonstrated in great detail that is is not a reasonable model for dynamic brain activity.

      Reviewer 2 (Public Review):

      Strengths:

      If true and convincing, the proposed theoretical framework and reconstruction algorithm can revolutionize the use of EEG source reconstructions.

      Weaknesses:

      There is very little actual information in the paper about either the forward model or the novel method of reconstruction. Only citations to prior work by the authors are cited with absolutely no benchmark comparisons, making the manuscript difficult to read and interpret in isolation from their prior body of work.

      We have now added a significant amount of material detailing the forward model, our solution to the inverse problem, and the method of reconstruction, in order to remedy this deficit in the previous version of the paper.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer 1 (Recommendations):

      It is not at all clear from the main text (section 3.1) and the caption, what is being shown in the activity patterns in Figures 1 and 2. What frequency bands and time points etc? How are the values shown in the figures calculated from the equations in the methods?

      We have added detailed information on the frequency bands reconstructed and the activity pattern generation and meaning. Additional information on the simultaneous EEG/fMRI acquisition details has been added to the Appendix.

      How have the activity maps been thresholded? Where are the color bars in Figures 1 and 2?

      We have now included that information in new versions of the figures. In addition, the quantitative comparison between fMRI and EEG are presented is now presented in a new Figure 2 (now Figure 3).

      P30 “This term is ignored in the current paper”. Why is this term ignored, but other (time-dependent) terms are not?

      These terms are ignored because they represent higher order terms that complicate the processing (and intepretation) but do not substatially change the main results. A note to this effect has been added to the text.

      The concepts and equations in the EFD section are not very accessible (e.g. to someone unfamiliar with IFT).

      We have added a lengthy general and more accessible description of the EFD method in the Appendix.

      Variables in equation 1, and the following equation, are not always defined in a clear, accessible manner. What is ?

      We have added additional information on how Eqn 1 (now Eqn 3) is derived, and the variables therein.

      In the EFD section, what do you mean conceptually by α, i.e. “the coupled parameters α”?

      This sentence has been eliminated, as it was superfluous and confusing.

      How are the EFD and WETCOW sections linked mathematically? What is ψ (in eqn 2) linked to in the WETCOW section (presumably ϕ<sub>ω</sub>?) ?

      We have added more introductory detail at the beginning of the Results to describe the WETCOW theory and how this is related to the inverse problem for EEG.

      What is the difference between data d and signal s in section 6.1.3? How are they related?

      We have added a much more detailed Appendix A where this (and other) details are provided.

      What assumptions have been made to get the form for the information Hamiltonian in eqn3?

      Eq 3 (now Eqn A.5) is actually very general. The approximations come in when constructing the interaction Hamiltonian H<sub>i</sub>.

      P33 “using coupling between different spatio-temporal points that is available from the data itself” I do not understand what is meant by this.

      This was a poorly worded sentence, but this section has now been replaced by Appendix A, which now contains the sentence that prior information “is contained within the data itself”. This refers to the fact that the prior information consists of correlations in the data, rather than some other measurements independent of the original data. This point is emphasized because in many Bayesian application, prior information consists of knowledge of some quantity that were acquired independently from the data at hand (e.g., mean values from previous experiments)

      Reviewer 2 (Recommendations):

      Abstract

      The first part presents validation from simultaneous EEG/fMRI data, iEEG data, and comparisons with standard EEG analyses of an attention paradigm. Exactly what constitutes adequate validation or what metrics were used to assess performance is surprisingly absent.

      Subsequently, the manuscript examines a large cohort of subjects performing a gambling task and engaging in reward circuits. The claim is that this method offers an alternative to fMRI.

      Introduction

      Provocative statements require strong backing and evidence. In the first paragraph, the “quasi-static” assumption which is dominant in the field of EEG and MEG imaging is questioned with some classic citations that support this assumption. Instead of delving into why exactly the assumption cannot be relaxed, the authors claim that because the assumption was proved with average tissue properties rather than exact, it is wrong. This does not make sense. Citations to the WETCOW papers are insufficient to question the quasi-static assumption.

      The introduction purports to validate a novel theory and inverse modeling method but poorly outlines the exact foundations of both the theory (WETCOW) and the inverse modeling (SPECTRE) work.

      We have added a new introductory subsection (“A physical theory of brain waves”) to the Results section that provides a brief overview of the foundations of the WETCOW theory and an explicit description of why the quasi-static approximation can be abandoned. We have expanded the subsequent subsection (“Solution to the inverse EEG problem”) to more clearly detail the inverse modeling (SPECTRE) method.

      Section 3.2 Validation with fMRI

      Figure 1 supposedly is a validation of this promising novel theoretical approach that defies the existing body of literature in this field. Shockingly, a single subject data is shown in a qualitative manner with absolutely no quantitative comparison anywhere to be found in the manuscript. While there are similarities, there are also differences in reconstructions. What to make out of these discrepancies? Are there distortions that may occur with SPECTRE reconstructions? What are its tradeoffs? How does it deal with noise in the data?

      It is certainly not the case that there are no quantitative comparisons. Correlation coefficients, which are the sufficient statistics for comparison of activation regions, are given in Figure 5 for very specific activation regions. Figure 9 (now Figure 11) shows a t-statistic demonstrating the very high significance of the comparison between multiple subjects. And we have now added a new Figure 7 demonstrating the strongly correlated estimates for full vs surface intra-cranial EEG reconstructions. To make this more clear, we have added a new section “Statistical Significance of the Results”.

      We note that a discussion of the discrepancies between fMRI and EEG was already presented in the Supplementary Material. Therein we discuss the main point that fMRI and EEG are measuring different physical quantities and so should not be expected to be identical. We also highlight the fact that fMRI is prone to significant geometrical distortions for magnetic field inhomogeities, and to physiological noise. To provide more visibility for this important issue, we have moved this text into the Discussion section.

      We do note that geometric distortions in fMRI data due to suboptimal acquisitions and corrections is all too common. This, coupled with the paucity of open source simultaneous fMRI-EEG data, made it difficult to find good data for comparison. The data on which we performed the quantitative statistical comparison between fMRI and EEG (Fig 5) was collected by co-author Dr Martinez, and was of the highest quality and therefore sufficient for comparison. The data used in Fig 1 and 2 was a well publicized open source dataset but had significant fMRI distortions that made quantitative comparison (i.e., correlation coefficents between subregions in the Harvard-Oxford atlas) suboptimal. Nevertheless, we wanted to demonstrate the method in more than one source, and feel that visual similarity is a reasonble measure for this data.

      Section 3.2 Validation with fMRI

      Figure 2 Are the sample slices being shown? How to address discrepancies? How to assume that these are validations when there are such a level of discrepancies?

      It’s not clear what “sample slices” means. The issue of discrepancies is addressed in the response to the previous query.

      Section 3.2 Validation with fMRI

      Figure 3 Similar arguments can be made for Figure 3. Here too, a comparison with source localization benchmarks is warranted because many papers have examined similar attention data.

      Regarding the fMRI/EEG comparison, these data are compared quantitatively in the text and in Figure 5.

      Regarding the suggestion to perform standard ’source localization’ analysis, see responses to Reviewer 1.

      Section 3.2 Validation with fMRI

      Figure 4 While there is consistency across 5 subjects, there are also subtle and not-so-subtle differences.

      What to make out of them?

      Discrepancies in activations patterns between individuals is a complex neuroscience question that we feel is well beyond the scope of this paper.

      Section 3.2 Validation with fMRI

      Figures 5 & 6 Figure 5 is also a qualitative figure from two subjects with no appropriate quantification of results across subjects. The same is true for Figure 6.

      On the contrary, Figure 5 contains a quantitative comparison, which is now also described in the text. A quantitative comparison for the epilepsy data in Fig 6 (and C.4-C.6) is now shown in Fig 7.

      Section 3.2 Validation with fMRI

      Given the absence of appropriate “validation” of the proposed model and method, it is unclear how much one can trust results in Section 4.

      We believe that the quantitative comparisons extant in the original text (and apparently missed by the Reviewer) along with the additional quantitative comparisons are sufficient to merit trust in Section 4.

      Section 3.2 Validation with fMRI

      What are the thresholds used in maps for Figure 7? Was correction for multiple comparisons performed? The final arguments at the end of section 4 do not make sense. Is the claim that all results of reconstructions from SPECTRE shown here are significant with no reason for multiple comparison corrections to control for false positives? Why so?

      We agree that the last line in Section 4 is misleading and have removed it.

      Section 3.2 Validation with fMRI

      Discussion is woefully inadequate in addition to the inconclusive findings presented here.

      We have added a significant amount of text to the Discussion to address the points brought up by the Reviewer. And, contrary to the comments of this Reviewer, we believe the statistically significant results presented are not “inconclusive”.

      Supplementary Materials

      This reviewer had an incredibly difficult time understanding the inverse model solution. Even though this has been described in a prior publication by the authors, it is important and imperative that all details be provided here to make the current manuscript complete. The notation itself is so nonstandard. What is Σ<sup>ij</sup>, δ<sup>ij</sup>? Where is the reference for equation (1)? What about the equation for <sup>ˆ</sup>(R)? There are very few details provided on the exact implementation details for the Fourier-space pseudo-spectral approach. What are the dimensions of the problem involved? How were different tissue compartments etc. handled? Equation 1 holds for the entire volume but the measurements are only made on the surface. How was this handled? What is the WETCOW brain wave model? I don’t see any entropy term defined anywhere - where is it?

      We have added more detail on the theoretical and numerical aspects of the inverse problem in two new subsections “Theory” and “Numerical Implementation” in the new section “Solution to the inverse EEG problem”.

      Supplementary Materials

      So, how can one understand even at a high conceptual level what is being done with SPECTRE?

      We have added a new subsection “Summary of SPECTRE” that provides a high conceptual level overview of the SPECTRE method outlined in the preceding sections.

      Supplementary Materials

      In order to understand what was being presented here, it required the reader to go on a tour of the many publications by the authors where the difficulty in understanding what they actually did in terms of inverse modeling remains highly obscure and presents a huge problem for replicability or reproducibility of the current work.

      We have now included more basic material from our previous papers, and simplified the presentation to be more accessible. In particular, we have now moved the key aspects of the theoretic and numerical methods, in a more readable form, from the Supplementary Material to the main text, and added a new Appendix that provides a more intuitive and accessible overview of our estimation procedures.

      Supplementary Materials

      How were conductivity values for different tissue types assigned? Is there an assumption that the conductivity tensor is the same as the diffusion tensor? What does it mean that “in the present study only HRA data were used in the estimation procedure?” Does that mean that diffusion MRI data was not used? What is SYMREG? If this refers to the MRM paper from the authors in 2018, that paper does not include EEG data at all. So, things are unclear here.

      The conductivity tensor is not exactly the same as the diffusion tensor in brain tissues, but they are closely related. While both tensors describe transport properties in brain tissue, they represent different physical processes. The conductivity tensor is often assumed to share the same eigenvectors as the diffusion tensor. There is a strong linear relationship between the conductivity and diffusion tensor eigenvalues, as supported by theoretical models and experimental measurements. For the current study we only used the anatomical data for estimatition and assignment of different tissue types and no diffusion MRI data was used. To register between different modalities, including MNI, HRA, function MRI, etc., and to transform the tissue assignment into an appropriate space we used the SYMREG registration method. A comment to the effect has been added to the text.

      Supplementary Materials

      How can reconstructed volumetric time-series of potential be thought of as the EM equivalent of an fMRI dataset? This sentence doesn’t make sense.

      This sentence indeed did not make sense and has been removed.

      Supplementary Materials

      Typical Bayesian inference does not include entropy terms, and entropy estimation doesn’t always lend to computing full posterior distributions. What is an “entropy spectrum pathway”? What is µ∗? Why can’t things be made clear to the reader, instead of incredible jargon used here? How does section 6.1.2 relate back to the previous section?

      That is correct that Bayesian inference typically does not include entropy terms. We believe that their introduction via the theory of entropy spectrum pathways (ESP) is a significant advance in Bayesian estimation as it provides highly relevent prior information from within the data itself (and therefore always available in spatiotemporal data) that facilitates a practical methodology for the analysis of complex non-linear dynamical system, as contained in the entropy field decomposition (EFD).

      Section 6.1.3 has now been replaced by a new Appendix A that discusses ESP in a much more intuitive and conceptual manner.

      Supplementary Materials

      Section 6.1.3 describes entropy field decomposition in very general terms. What is “non-period”? This section is incomprehensible. Without reference to exactly where in the process this procedure is deployed it is extremely difficult to follow. There seems to be an abuse of notation of using ϕ for eigenvectors in equation (5) and potentials earlier. How do equations 9-11 relate back to the original problem being solved in section 6.1.1? What are multiple modalities being described here that require JESTER?

      Section 6.1.3 has now been replaced by a new Appendix A that covers this material in a much more intuitive and conceptual manner.

      Supplementary Materials

      Section 6.3 discusses source localization methods. While most forward lead-field models assume quasistatic approximations to Maxwell’s equations, these are perfectly valid for the frequency content of brain activity being measured with EEG or MEG. Even with quasi-static lead fields, the solutions can have frequency dependence due to the data having frequency dependence. Solutions do not have to be insensitive to detailed spatially variable electrical properties of the tissues. For instance, if a FEM model was used to compute the forward model, this model will indeed be sensitive to the spatially variable and anisotropic electrical properties. This issue is not even acknowledged.

      The frequency dependence of the tissue properties is not the issue. Our theoretical work demonstrates that taking into account the anisotropy and inhomogeneity of the tissue is necessary in order to derive the existence of the weakly evanescent transverse cortical waves (WETCOW) that SPECTRE is detecting. We have added more details about the WETCOW model in the new Section “A physical theory of brain wave” to emphasize this point.

      Supplementary Materials

      Arguments to disambiguate deep vs shallow sources can be achieved with some but not all source localization algorithms and do not require a non-quasi-static formulation. LORETA is not even the main standard algorithm for comparison. It is disappointing that there are no comparisons to source localization and that this is dismissed away due to some coding issues.

      Again, we are not doing ’source localization’. The concept of localized dipole sources is anathema to our brain wave model, and so in our view comparing SPECTRE to such methods only propagates the misleading idea that they are doing the same thing. So they are definitely not dismissed due to coding issues. However, because of repeated requests to do compare SPECTRE with such methods, we attempted to run a standard source localization method with parameters that would at least provide the closest approximation to what we were doing. This attempt highlighted a serious computational issue in source localization methods that is a direct consequence of the fact that they are not attempting to do what SPECTRE is doing - describing a time-varying wave field, in the technical definition of a ’field’ as an object that has a value at every point in space-time.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      Bennion and colleagues present a careful examination of how an earlier set of memories can either interfere with or facilitate memories formed later. This impressive work is a companion piece to an earlier paper by Antony and colleagues (2022) in which a similar experimental design was used to examine how a later set of memories can either interfere with or facilitate memories formed earlier. This study makes contact with an experimental literature spanning 100 years, which is concerned with the nature of forgetting, and the ways in which memories for particular experiences can interact with other memories. These ideas are fundamental to modern theories of human memory, for example, paired-associate studies like this one are central to the theoretical idea that interference between memories is a much bigger contributor to forgetting than any sort of passive decay. 

      Strengths: 

      At the heart of the current investigation is a proposal made by Osgood in the 1940s regarding how paired associates are learned and remembered. In these experiments, one learns a pair of items, A-B (cue-target), and then later learns another pair that is related in some way, either A'-B (changing the cue, delta-cue), or A-B' (changing the target, delta-target), or A'-B' (changing both, delta-both), where the prime indicates that item has been modified, and may be semantically related to the original item. The authors refer to the critical to-be-remembered pairs as base pairs. Osgood proposed that when the changed item is very different from the original item there will be interference, and when the changed item is similar to the original item there will be facilitation. Osgood proposed a graphical depiction of his theory in which performance was summarized as a surface, with one axis indicating changes to the cue item of a pair and the other indicating changes to the target item, and the surface itself necessary to visualize the consequences of changing both. 

      In the decades since Osgood's proposal, there have been many studies examining slivers of the proposal, e.g., just changing targets in one experiment, just changing cues in another experiment. Because any pair of experiments uses different methods, this has made it difficult to draw clear conclusions about the effects of particular manipulations. 

      The current paper is a potential landmark, in that the authors manipulate multiple fundamental experimental characteristics using the same general experimental design. Importantly, they manipulate the semantic relatedness of the changed item to the original item, the delay between the study experience and the test, and which aspect of the pair is changed. Furthermore, they include both a positive control condition (where the exact same pair is studied twice), and a negative control condition (where a pair is only studied once, in the same phase as the critical base pairs). This allows them to determine when the prior learning exhibits an interfering effect relative to the negative control condition and also allows them to determine how close any facilitative effects come to matching the positive control. 

      The results are interpreted in terms of a set of existing theories, most prominently the memory-for-change framework, which proposes a mechanism (recursive reminding) potentially responsible for the facilitative effects examined here. One of the central results is the finding that a stronger semantic relationship between a base pair and an earlier pair has a facilitative effect on both the rate of learning of the base pair and the durability of the memory for the base pair. This is consistent with the memory-for-change framework, which proposes that this semantic relationship prompts retrieval of the earlier pair, and the two pairs are integrated into a common memory structure that contains information about which pair was studied in which phase of the experiment. When semantic relatedness is lower, they more often show interference effects, with the idea being that competition between the stored memories makes it more difficult to remember the base pair. 

      This work represents a major methodological and empirical advance for our understanding of paired-associates learning, and it sets a laudably high bar for future work seeking to extend this knowledge further. By manipulating so many factors within one set of experiments, it fills a gap in the prior literature regarding the cognitive validity of an 80-year-old proposal by Osgood. The reader can see where the observed results match Osgood's theory and where they are inconclusive. This gives us insight, for example, into the necessity of including a long delay in one's experiment, to observe potential facilitative effects. This point is theoretically interesting, but it is also a boon for future methodological development, in that it establishes the experimental conditions necessary for examining one or another of these facilitation or interference effects more closely. 

      We thank the reviewer for their thorough and positive comments -- thank you so much!

      Weaknesses: 

      One minor weakness of the work is that the overarching theoretical framing does not necessarily specify the expected result for each and every one of the many effects examined. For example, with a narrower set of semantic associations being considered (all of which are relatively high associations) and a long delay, varying the semantic relatedness of the target item did not reliably affect the memorability of that pair. However, the same analysis showed a significant effect when the wider set of semantic associations was used. The positive result is consistent with the memory-for-change framework, but the null result isn't clearly informative to the theory. I call this a minor weakness because I think the value of this work will grow with time, as memory researchers and theorists use it as a benchmark for new theory development. For example, the data from these experiments will undoubtedly be used to develop and constrain a new generation of computational models of paired-associates learning. 

      We thank the reviewer for this constructive critique. We agree that the experiments with a narrower set of semantic associations are less informative; in fact, we thought about removing these experiments from the current study, but given that we found results in the ΔBoth condition in Antony et al. (2022) using these stimuli that we did NOT find in the wider set, we thought it was worth including for a thorough comparison. We hope that the analyses combining the two experiment sets (Fig 6-Supp 1) are informative for contextualizing the results in the ‘narrower’ experiments and, as the reviewer notes, for informing future researchers.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      The study focuses on how relatedness with existing memories affects the formation and retention of new memories. Of core interest were the conditions that determine when prior memories facilitate new learning or interfere with it. Across a set of experiments that varied the degree of relatedness across memories as well as retention interval, the study compellingly shows that relatedness typically leads to proactive facilitation of new learning, with interference only observed under specific conditions and immediate test and being thus an exception rather than a rule. 

      Strengths: 

      The study uses a well-established word-pair learning paradigm to study interference and facilitation of overlapping memories. However it goes more in-depth than a typical interference study in the systematic variation of several factors: (1) which elements of an association are overlapping and which are altered (change target, change cue, change both, change neither); (2) how much the changed element differs from the original (word relatedness, with two ranges of relatedness considered); (3) retention period (immediate test, 2-day delay). Furthermore, each experiment has a large N sample size, so both significant effects as well as null effects are robust and informative. 

      The results show the benefits of relatedness, but also replicate interference effects in the "change target" condition when the new target is not related to the old target and when the test is immediate. This provides a reconciliation of some existing seemingly contradictory results on the effect of overlap on memory. Here, the whole range of conditions is mapped to convincingly show how the direction of the effect can flip across the surface of relatedness values. 

      Additional strength comes from supporting analyses, such as analyses of learning data, demonstrating that relatedness leads to both better final memory and also faster initial learning. 

      More broadly, the study informs our understanding of memory integration, demonstrating how the interdependence of memory for related information increases with relatedness. Together with a prior study or retroactive interference and facilitation, the results provide new insights into the role of reminding in memory formation. 

      In summary, this is a highly rigorous body of work that sets a great model for future studies and improves our understanding of memory organization. 

      We thank their reviewer for their thorough summary and very supportive words!

      Weaknesses: 

      The evidence for the proactive facilitation driven by relatedness is very convincing. However, in the finer scale results, the continuous relationship between the degree of relatedness and the degree of proactive facilitation/interference is less clear. This could be improved with some additional analyses and/or context and discussion. In the narrower range, the measure used was AS, with values ranging from 0.03-0.98, where even 0.03 still denotes clearly related words (pious - holy). Within this range from "related" to "related a lot", no relationship to the degree of facilitation was found. The wider range results are reported using a different scale, GloVe, with values from -0.14 to 0.95, where the lower end includes unrelated words (sap - laugh). It is possible that any results of facilitation/interference observed in the wider range may be better understood as a somewhat binary effect of relatedness (yes or no) rather than the degree of relatedness, given the results from the narrower condition. These two options could be more explicitly discussed. The report would benefit from providing clearer information about these measures and their range and how they relate to each other (e.g., not a linear transformation). It would be also helpful to know how the values reported on the AS scale would end up if expressed in the GloVe scale (and potentially vice-versa) and how that affects the results. Currently, it is difficult to assess whether the relationship between relatedness and memory is qualitative or quantitative. This is less of a problem with interdependence analyses where the results converge across a narrow and wider range. 

      We thank the reviewer for this point. While other analyses do show differences across the range of AS values we used, we agree in the case of the memorability analysis in the narrower stimulus set, 48-hr experiment (or combining across the narrower and wider stimulus sets), there could be a stronger influence of binary (yes/no) relatedness. We have now made this point explicitly (p. 26):

      “Altogether, these results show that PI can still occur with low relatedness, like in other studies finding PI in ΔTarget (A-B, A-D) paradigms (for a review, see Anderson & Neely, 1996), but PF occurs with higher relatedness. In fact, the absence of low relatedness pairs in the narrower stimulus set likely led to the strong overall PF in this condition across all pairs (positive y-intercept in the upper right of Fig 3A). In this particular instance, there may have been a stronger influence of a binary factor (whether they are related or not), though this remains speculative and is not the case for other analyses in our paper.”

      Additionally, we have also emphasized that the two relatedness metrics are not linear transforms of each other. Finally, as in addressing both your and reviewer #3’s comment below, we now graph relatedness values under a common GloVe metric in Fig 1-Supp 1C (p. 9):

      “Please note that GloVe is an entirely different relatedness metric and is not a linear transformation of AS (see Fig 1-Supp 1C for how the two stimulus sets compare using the common GloVe metric).”

      A smaller weakness is generalizability beyond the word set used here. Using a carefully crafted stimulus set and repeating the same word pairings across participants and conditions was important for memorability calculations and some of the other analyses. However, highlighting the inherently noisy item-by-item results, especially in the Osgood-style surface figures, makes it challenging to imagine how the results would generalize to new stimuli, even within the same relatedness ranges as the current stimulus sets. 

      We thank the reviewer for this critique. We have added this caveat in the limitations to suggest that future studies should replicate these general findings with different stimulus sets (p. 28):

      “Finally, future studies could ensure these effects are not limited to these stimuli and generalize to other word stimuli in addition to testing other domains (Baek & Papaj, 2024; Holding, 1976).”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      Bennion et al. investigate how semantic relatedness proactively benefits the learning of new word pairs. The authors draw predictions from Osgood (1949), which posits that the degree of proactive interference (PI) and proactive facilitation (PF) of previously learned items on to-be-learned items depends on the semantic relationships between the old and new information. In the current study, participants learn a set of word pairs ("supplemental pairs"), followed by a second set of pairs ("base pairs"), in which the cue, target, or both words are changed, or the pair is identical. Pairs were drawn from either a narrower or wider stimulus set and were tested after either a 5-minute or 48-hour delay. The results show that semantic relatedness overwhelmingly produces PF and greater memory interdependence between base and supplemental pairs, except in the case of unrelated pairs in a wider stimulus set after a short delay, which produced PI. In their final analyses, the authors compare their current results to previous work from their group studying the analogous retroactive effects of semantic relatedness on memory. These comparisons show generally similar, if slightly weaker, patterns of results. The authors interpret their results in the framework of recursive reminders (Hintzman, 2011), which posits that the semantic relationships between new and old word pairs promote reminders of the old information during the learning of the new to-be-learned information. These reminders help to integrate the old and new information and result in additional retrieval practice opportunities that in turn improve later recall. 

      Strengths: 

      Overall, I thought that the analyses were thorough and well-thought-out and the results were incredibly well-situated in the literature. In particular, I found that the large sample size, inclusion of a wide range of semantic relatedness across the two stimulus sets, variable delays, and the ability to directly compare the current results to their prior results on the retroactive effects of semantic relatedness were particular strengths of the authors' approach and make this an impressive contribution to the existing literature. I thought that their interpretations and conclusions were mostly reasonable and included appropriate caveats (where applicable). 

      We thank the reviewer for this kind, effective summary and highlight of the paper’s strengths!

      Weaknesses: 

      Although I found that the paper was very strong overall, I have three main questions and concerns about the analyses. 

      My first concern lies in the use of the narrow versus wider stimulus sets. I understand why the initial narrow stimulus set was defined using associative similarity (especially in the context of their previous paper on the retroactive effects of semantic similarity), and I also understand their rationale for including an additional wider stimulus set. What I am less clear on, however, is the theoretical justification for separating the datasets. The authors include a section combining them and show in a control analysis that there were no directional effects in the narrow stimulus set. The authors seem to imply in the Discussion that they believe there are global effects of the lower average relatedness on differing patterns of PI vs PF across stimulus sets (lines 549-553), but I wonder if an alternative explanation for some of their conflicting results could be that PI only occurs with pairs of low semantic relatedness between the supplemental and base pair and that because the narrower stimulus set does not include the truly semantically unrelated pairs, there was no evidence of PI. 

      We agree with the reviewer’s interpretation here, and we have now directly stated this in the discussion section (p. 26):

      “Altogether, these results show that PI can still occur with low relatedness, like in other studies finding PI in ΔTarget (A-B, A-D) paradigms (for a review see, Anderson & Neely, 1996), but PF occurs with higher relatedness. In fact, the absence of low relatedness pairs in the narrower stimulus set likely led to the strong overall PF in this condition across all pairs (positive y-intercept in the upper right of Fig 3A).”

      As for the remainder of this concern, please see our response to your elaboration on the critique below.

      My next concern comes from the additive change in both measures (change in Cue + change in Target). This measure is simply a measure of overall change, in which a pair where the cue changes a great deal but the target doesn't change is treated equivalently to a pair where the target changes a lot, but the cue does not change at all, which in turn are treated equivalently to a pair where the cue and target both change moderate amounts. Given that the authors speculate that there are different processes occurring with the changes in cue and target and the lack of relationship between cue+target relatedness and memorability, it might be important to tease apart the relative impact of the changes to the different aspects of the pair. 

      We thank the reviewer for this great point. First, we should clarify that we only added cue and target similarity values in the ΔBoth condition, which means that all instances of equivalence relate to non-zero values for both cue and target similarity. However, it is certainly possible cue and target similarity separately influence memorability or interdependence. We have now run this analysis separately for cue and target similarity (but within the ΔBoth condition). For memorability, neither cue nor target similarity independently predicted memorability within the ΔBoth condition in any of the four main experiments (all p > 0.23). Conversely, there were some relationships with interdependence. In the narrower stimulus set, 48-hr delay experiment, both cue and target similarity significantly or marginally predicted base-secondary pair interdependence (Cue: r = 0.30, p = 0.04; Target: r = 0.29, p = 0.054). Notably, both survived partial correlation analyses partialing out the other factor (Cue: r = 0.33, p = 0.03; Target: r = 0.32, p = 0.04). In the wider stimulus set, 48-hr delay experiment, only target similarity predicted interdependence (Cue: r = 0.09, p = 0.55; Target: r = 0.34, p = 0.02), and target similarity also predicted interdependence after partialing out cue similarity (r = 0.34, p = 0.02). Similarly, in the narrower stimulus set, 5-min delay experiment, only target similarity predicted interdependence (Cue: r = 0.01, p = 0.93; Target: r = 0.41, p = 0.005), and target similarity also predicted interdependence after partialing out cue similarity (r = 0.42, p = 0.005). Neither predicted interdependence in the wider stimulus set, 5-min delay experiment (Cue: r = -0.14, p = 0.36; Target: r = 0.09, p = 0.54). We have opted to leave this out of the paper for now, but we could include it if the reviewer believes it is worthwhile.

      Note that we address the multiple regression point raised by the reviewer in the critique below.

      Finally, it is unclear to me whether there was any online spell-checking that occurred during the free recall in the learning phase. If there wasn't, I could imagine a case where words might have accidentally received additional retrieval opportunities during learning - take for example, a case where a participant misspelled "razor" as "razer." In this example, they likely still successfully learned the word pair but if there was no spell-checking that occurred during the learning phase, this would not be considered correct, and the participant would have had an additional learning opportunity for that pair. 

      We did not use online spell checking. We agree that misspellings would be considered successful instances of learning (meaning that for those words, they would essentially have successful retrieval more than once). However, we do not have a reason to think that this would meaningfully differ across conditions, so the main learning results would still hold. We have included this in the Methods (p. 29-30):

      “We did not use spell checking during learning, meaning that in some cases pairs could have been essentially retrieved more than once. However, we do not believe this would differ across conditions to affect learning results.”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      In terms of the framing of the paper, I think the paper would benefit from a clearer explication of the different theories at play in the introductory section. There are a few theories being examined. Memory-for-change is described in most detail in the discussion, it would help to describe it more deliberately in the intro. The authors refer to a PI account, and this is contrasted with the memory-for-change account, but it seems to me that these theories are not mutually exclusive. In the discussion, several theories are mentioned in passing without being named, e.g., I believe the authors are referring to the fan effect when they mention the difference between delta-cue and delta-target conditions. Perhaps this could be addressed with a more detailed account of the theory underlying Osgood's predictions, which I believe arise from an associative account of paired-associates memory. Osgood's work took place when there was a big debate between unlearning and interference. The current work isn't designed to speak directly to that old debate. But it may be possible to develop the theory a bit more in the intro, which would go a long way towards scaffolding the many results for the reader, by giving them a better sense up front of the theoretical implications. 

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and the nudge to clarify these points. First, we have now made the memory-for-change and remindings accounts more explicit in the introduction, as well as the fact that we are combining the two in forming predictions for the current study (p. 3):

      “Conversely, in favor of the PF account, we consider two main, related theories. The first is the importance of “remindings” in memory, which involve reinstating representations from an earlier study phase during later learning (Hintzman, 2011). This idea centers study-phase retrieval, which involves being able to mentally recall prior information and is usually applied to exact repetitions of the same material (Benjamin & Tullis, 2010; Hintzman et al., 1975; Siegel & Kahana, 2014; Thios & D’Agostino, 1976; Zou et al., 2023). However, remindings can occur upon the presentation of related (but not identical) material and can result in better memory for both prior and new information when memory for the linked events becomes more interdependent (Hintzman, 2011; Hintzman et al., 1975; McKinley et al., 2019; McKinley & Benjamin, 2020; Schlichting & Preston, 2017; Tullis et al., 2014; Wahlheim & Zacks, 2019). The second is the memory-for-change framework, which builds upon these ideas and argues that humans often retrieve prior experiences during new learning, either spontaneously by noticing changes from what was learned previously or by instruction (Jacoby et al., 2015; Jacoby & Wahlheim, 2013). The key advance of this framework is that recollecting changes is necessary for PF, whereas PI occurs without recollection. This framework has been applied to paradigms including stimulus changes, including common paired associate paradigms (e.g., A-B, A-D) that we cover extensively later. Because humans may be more likely to notice and recall prior information when it is more related to new information, these two accounts would predict that semantic relatedness instead promotes successful remindings, which would create PF and interdependence among the traces.”

      Second, as the reviewer suggests, we were referring to the fan effect in the discussion, and we have now made that more explicit (p. 26):

      “We believe these effects arise from the competing processes of impairments between competing responses at retrieval that have not been integrated versus retrieval benefits when that integration has occurred (which occurs especially often with high target relatedness). These types of competing processes appear operative in various associative learning paradigms such as retrieval-induced forgetting (Anderson & McCulloch, 1999; Carroll et al., 2007), and the fan effect (Moeser, 1979; Reder & Anderson, 1980).”

      Finally, our reading of Osgood’s proposal is as an attempt to summarize the qualitative effects of the scattered literature (as of 1949) and did not discuss many theories. For this reason, we generally focus on the directional predictions relating to Osgood’s surface, but we couch it in theories proposed since then.

      It strikes me that the advantage seen for items in the retroactive study compared to the proactive study is consistent with classic findings examining spontaneous recovery. These classic studies found that first-learned materials tended to recover to a level above second-learned materials as time passed. This could be consistent with the memory-for-change proposal presented in the text. The memory-for-change proposal provides a potential cognitive mechanism for the effect, here I'm just suggesting a connection that could be made with the spontaneous recovery literature. 

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. Indeed, we agree there is a meaningful point of connection here. We have added the following to the Discussion (p. 27):

      “Additionally, these effects partially resemble those on spontaneous recovery, whereby original associations tend to face interference after new, conflicting learning, but slowly recover over time (either absolutely or relative to the new learning) and often eventually eclipse memory for the new information (Barnes & Underwood, 1959; Postman et al., 1969; Wheeler, 1995). In both cases, original associations appear more robust to change over time, though it is unclear whether these similar outcomes stem from similar mechanisms.”

      Minor recommendations 

      Line 89: relative existing -> relative to existing. 

      Line 132: "line from an unrelated and identical target" -> from an unrelated to identical target (take a look, just needs rephrasing). 

      Line 340: (e.g. peace-shaverazor) I wasn't clear whether this was a typographical error, or whether the intent was to typographically indicate a unified representation. <br /> Line 383: effects on relatedness -> effects of relatedness. 

      We think the reviewer for catching these errors. We have fixed them, and for the third comment, we have clarified that we indeed meant to indicate a unified representation (p. 12):

      “[e.g., peace-shaverazor (written jointly to emphasize the unification)]”

      Page 24: Figure 8. I think the statistical tests in this figure are just being done between the pairs of the same color? Like in the top left panel, delta-cue pro and delta-target retro are adjacent and look equivalent, but there is no n.s. marking for this pair. Could consider keeping the connecting line between the linked conditions and removing the connecting lines that span different conditions. 

      Indeed, we were only comparing conditions with the same color. We have changed the connecting lines to reflect this.

      Page 26 line 612: I think this is the first mention that the remindings account is referred to as the memory-for-change framework, consider mentioning this in the introduction. 

      Thank you – we have now mentioned this in the introduction.

      Lines 627-630. Is this sentence referring to the fan effect? If so it could help the reader to name it explicitly. 

      We have now named this explicitly.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      This is a matter of personal preference, but I would prefer PI and PF spelled out instead of the abbreviations. This was also true for RI and RF which are defined early but then not used for 20 pages before being re-used again. In contrast, the naming of the within-subject conditions was very intuitive. 

      We appreciate this perspective. However, we prefer to keep the terms PI and PF for the sake of brevity. We now re-introduce terms that do not return until later in the manuscript.

      Osgood surface in Figure 1A could be easier to read if slightly reformatted. For example, target and cue relatedness sides are very disproportional and I kept wondering if that was intentional. The z-axis could be slightly more exaggerated so it's easier to see the critical messages in that figure (e.g., flip from + to - effect along the one dimension). The example word pairs were extremely helpful. 

      Figures 1C and 1D were also very helpful. It would be great if they could be a little bigger as the current version is hard to read. 

      Figure 1B took a while to decipher and could use a little more anticipation in the body of the text. Any reason to plot the x-axis from high to low on this figure? It is confusing (and not done in the actual results figures). I believe the supplemental GloVe equivalent in the supplement also has a confusing x-axis. 

      Thank the reviewer for this feedback. We have modified Figure 1A to reduce the disproportionality and accentuate the z-axis changes. We have also made the text in C and D larger. Finally, we have flipped around the x-axis in B and in the supplement.

      The description of relatedness values was rather confusing. It is not intuitive to accept that AS values from 0.03-0.96 are "narrow", as that seems to cover almost the whole theoretical range. I do understand that 0.03 is still a value showing relatedness, but more explanation would be helpful. It is also not clear how the GloVe values compare to the AS values. If I am understanding the measures and ranges correctly, the "narrow" condition could also be called "related only" while the "wide" condition could be called "related and unrelated". This is somewhat verbalized but could be clearer. In general, please provide a straightforward way for a reader to explicitly or implicitly compare those conditions, or even plot the "narrow" condition using both AS values and GloVe values so one can really compare narrow and wider conditions comparing apples with apples. 

      We thank the reviewer for this critique. First, we have now sought to clarify this in the Introduction (p. 11-12):

      “Across the first four experiments, we manipulated two factors: range of relatedness among the pairs and retention interval before the final test. The narrower range of relatedness used direct AS between pairs using free association norms, such that all pairs had between 0.03-0.96 association strength. Though this encompasses what appears to be a full range of relatedness values, pairs with even low AS are still related in the context of all possible associations (e.g., pious-holy has AS = 0.03 but would generally be considered related) (Fig 1B). The stimuli using a wider range of relatedness spanned the full range of global vector similarity (Pennington et al., 2014) that included many associations that would truly be considered unrelated (Fig 1-Supp 1A). One can see the range of the wider relatedness values in Fig 1-Supp 1B and comparisons between narrower and wider relatedness values in Fig 1-Supp 1C.”

      Additionally, as noted in the text above, we have added a new subfigure to Fig 1-Supp 1 that compares the relatedness values in the narrower and wider stimulus sets using the common GloVe metric.

      Considering a relationship other than linear may also be beneficial (e.g., the difference between AS of 0.03 and 0.13 may not be equal to AS of .83 and .93; same with GloVe). I am assuming that AS and GloVe are not linear transforms of each other. Thus, it is not clear whether one should expect a linear (rather than curvilinear or another monotonic) relationship with both of them. It could be as simple as considering rank-order correlation rather than linear correlation, but just wanted to put this out for consideration. The linear approach is still clearly fruitful (e.g., interdependence), but limits further the utility of having both narrow and wide conditions without a straightforward way to compare them. 

      We thank the reviewer for this point. Indeed, AS and GloVe are not linear transforms of each other, but metrics derived from different sources (AS comes from human free associations; GloVe comes from a learned vector space language model). (We noted this in the text and in our response to your above comment.) However, we do have the ability to put all the word pairs into the GloVe metric, which we do in the Results section, “Re-assessing proactive memory and interdependence effects using a common metric”. In this analysis, we used a linear correlation that combined data sets with a similar retention interval and replicated our main findings earlier in the paper (p. 5):

      “In the 48-hr delay experiment, correlations between memorability and cue relatedness in the ΔCue condition [r2(44) > 0.29, p < 0.001] and target relatedness in the ΔTarget condition [r2(44) = 0.2, p < 0.001] were significant, whereas cue+target relatedness in the ΔBoth condition was not [r2(44) = 0.01, p = 0.58]. In all three conditions, interdependence increased with relatedness [all r2(44) > 0.16, p < 0.001].”

      Following the reviewer suggestion to test things out using rank order, we also re-created the combined analysis using rank order based on GloVe values rather than the raw GloVe values. The ranks now span 1-90 (because there were 45 pairs in each of the narrower and wider stimulus sets). All results qualitatively held.

      Author response image 1.

      Rank order results.

      Author response image 2.

      And the raw results in Fig 6-Supp 1 (as a reference).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In regards to my first concern, the authors could potentially test whether the stimulus sets are different by specifically looking at pairs from the wider stimulus set that overlap with the range of relatedness from the narrow set and see if they replicate the results from the narrow stimulus set. If the results do not differ, the authors could simplify their results section by collapsing across stimulus sets (as they did in the analyses presented in Figure 6 - Supplementary Figure 1). If the authors opt to keep the stimulus sets separate, it would be helpful to include a version of Figure 1b/Figure 1 - Supplementary Figure 1 where the coverage of the two stimulus sets are plotted on the same figure using GloVe similarity so it is easier to interpret the results. 

      We have conducted this analysis in two ways, though we note that we will eventually settle upon keeping the stimulus sets separate. First, we examined memorability between the data sets by removing one pair at a time from the wider stimulus set until there was no significant difference (p > 0.05). We did this at the long delay because that was more informative for most of our analyses. Even after reducing the wider stimulus set, the narrow stimulus set still had significantly or marginally higher memorability in all three conditions (p < 0.001 for ΔCue; p < 0.001 for ΔTarget; p = 0.08 for ΔBoth. We reasoned that this was likely because the AS values still differed (all, p < 0.001), which would present a clear way for participants to associate words that may not be as strongly similar in vector space (perhaps due to polysemy for individual words). When we ran the analysis a different way that equated AS, we no longer found significant memorability differences (p \= 0.13 for ΔCue; p = 0.50 for ΔTarget; p = 0.18 for ΔBoth). However, equating the two data sets in this analysis required us to drop so many pairs to equate the wider stimulus data set (because only a few only had a direct AS connection; there were 3, 5, and 1 pairs kept in the ΔCue, ΔTarget, and ΔBoth conditions) that we would prefer not to report this result.

      Additionally, we now plot the two stimulus sets on the same plot (Reviewer 2 also suggested this).

      In regards to my second concern, one potential way the authors could disambiguate the effects of change in cue vs change in target might be to run a multiple linear regression with change in Cue, change in Target, and the change in Cue*change in Target interaction (potentially with random effects of subject identity and word pair identity to combine experiments and control for pair memorability/counterbalancing), which has the additional bonus of potentially allowing the authors to include all word pairs in a single model and better describe the Osgood-style spaces in Figure 6.

      This is a very interesting idea. We set this analysis up as the reviewer suggested, using fixed effects for ΔCue, ΔTarget, and ΔCue*ΔTarget, and random effects for subject and word ID. Because we had a binary outcome variable, we used mixed effects logistic regression. For a given pair, if it had the same cue or target, the corresponding change column received a 0, and if it had a different cue or target, it received a graded value (1 - GloVe value between the new and old cue or target). For this analysis, because we designed this analysis to indicate a treatment away from a repeat (as in the No Δ condition, which had no change for either cues and targets), we omitted control items. For items in the ΔBoth condition, we initially used positive values in both the Cue and Target columns too, with the multiplied ΔCue*ΔTarget value in its own column. We focused these analyses on the 48-hr delay experiments. In both experiments, running it this way resulted in highly significant negative effects of ΔCue and ΔTarget (both p < 0.001), but positive effects of ΔCue*ΔTarget (p < 0.001), presumably because after accounting for the negative independent predictions of both ΔCue and ΔTarget, ΔCue*ΔTarget values actually were better than expected.

      We thought that those results were a little strange given that generally there did not appear to be interactions with ΔCue*ΔTarget values, and the positive result was simply due to the other predictors in the model. To show that this is the case, we changed the predictors so that items in the ΔBoth condition had 0 in ΔCue and ΔTarget columns alongside their ΔCue*ΔTarget value. In this case, all three factors negatively predicted memory (all p < 0.001).

      We don't necessarily see this second approach as better, partly because it seems clear to us that any direction you go from identity is just hurting memory, and we felt the need to drop the control condition. We next flipped around the analysis to more closely resemble how we ran the other analyses, using similarity instead of distance. Here, identity along any dimension indicated a 1, a change in any part of the pair involved using that pair’s GloVe value (rather than the 1 – the GloVe value from above), and the control condition simply had zeros in all the columns. In this case, if we code the cue and target similarity values as themselves in the ΔBoth condition, in both 48-hr experiments, cue and target similarity significantly positively predicted memory (narrower set: cue similarity had p = 0.006, target similarity had p < 0.001; wider set: both p < 0.001) and the interaction term negatively predicted memory (p < 0.001 in both). If we code cue and target similarity values as 0s in the ΔBoth condition, all three factors tend to be positive (narrower, Cue: p = 0.11, Target and Interaction: p < 0.001; wider, Cue and Target p < 0.001; Interaction: p = 0.07).

      Ultimately, we would prefer to leave this out of the manuscript in the interest of simplicity and because we largely find that these analyses support our prior conclusions. However, we could include them if the reviewer prefers.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this study, Alejandro Rosell et al. uncovers the immunoregulation functions of RAS-p110α pathway in macrophages, including the extravasation of monocytes from the bloodstream and subsequent lysosomal digestion. Disrupting RAS-p110α pathway by mouse genetic tools or by pharmacological intervention, hampers the inflammatory response, leading to delayed resolution and more severe acute inflammatory reactions. The authors proposed that activating p110α using small molecules could be a promising approach for treating chronic inflammation. This study provides insights into the roles and mechanisms of p110α on macrophage function and the inflammatory response, while some conclusions are still questionable because of several issues described below. 

      (1) Fig. 1B showed that disruption of RAS-p110α causes the decrease in the activation of NF-κB, which is a crucial transcription factor that regulates the expression of proinflammatory genes. However, the authors observed that disruption of RAS-p110α interaction results in an exacerbated inflammatory state in vivo, in both localized paw inflammation and systemic inflammatory mediator levels. Also, the authors introduced that "this disruption leads to a change in macrophage polarization, favoring a more proinflammatory M1 state" in introduction according to reference 12. The conclusions drew from the signaling and the models seemed contradictory and puzzling. Besides, it is not clear why the protein level of p65 was decreased at 10' and 30'. Was it attributed to the degradation of p65 or experimental variation? 

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful comment and apologize for not previously explaining the implications of the observed decrease in NF-κB activation. We found a decrease in NF-κB activation in response to LPS + IFN-γ stimulation in macrophages lacking RAS-PI3K interaction. As the reviewer pointed out, NF-κB is a key transcription factor that regulates the expression of various proinflammatory genes. To better characterize whether the decrease in p-p65 would lead to a reduction in the expression of specific cytokines, we performed a cytokine array using unstimulated and LPS + IFN-γ stimulated macrophages. The results indicated a small number of cytokines with altered expression, validating that RAS-p110α activation of p-p65 regulates the expression of some inflammatory cytokines. These results have been added to the manuscript and to Figure 1 (panels C and D). In brief, the data suggest an impairment in recruitment factors and inflammatory regulators following the disruption of RAS-p110α signaling in macrophages, which aligns with the observed in vivo phenotype. 

      Our findings indicate that the disruption of RAS-p110α signaling has a complex and multifaceted role in BMDMs. Specifically, monocytes lacking RAS-PI3K are unable to reach the inflamed area due to an impaired ability to extravasate, caused by altered actin cytoskeleton dynamics. Consequently, inflammation is sustained over time, continuously releasing inflammatory mediators. Moreover, we have shown that macrophages deficient in RAS-p110α interaction fail to mount a full inflammatory response due to decreased activation of p-p65, leading to reduced production of a set of inflammatory regulators. Additionally, these macrophages are unable to effectively process phagocytosed material and activate the resolutive phase of inflammation. As a result of these defects, an exacerbated and sustained inflammatory response occurs. 

      Our in vivo data, showing an increase in systemic inflammatory mediators, might be a consequence of the accumulation of monocytes produced by bone marrow progenitors in response to sensed inflammatory stimuli, but unable to extravasate.

      Regarding the sentence in the introduction: "this disruption leads to a change in macrophage polarization, favoring a more proinflammatory M1 state" (reference 12), this was observed in an oncogenic context, which might differ from the role of RAS-p110α in a non-oncogenic situation, as analyzed in this work. We introduced these results as an example to establish the role of RAS-p110α in macrophages, demonstrating its participation in macrophage-dependent responses. Together with our study, these findings clearly indicate that p110α signaling is critical when analyzing full immune responses. Previously, little was known about the role of this PI3K isoform in immune responses. Our data, along with those presented by Murillo et al. (ref. 12), demonstrate that p110α plays a significant role in macrophage function in both oncogenic and inflammatory contexts. Additionally, our results suggest that this role is complex and multifaceted, warranting further investigation to fully understand the complexity of p110α signaling in macrophages.

      Regarding decreased levels of p65 at 10’ and 30’ in RBD cells we are still uncertain about the possible molecular mechanism leading to the observed decrease. No changes in p65 mRNA levels were observed after 30 minutes of LPS+IFNγ treatment as shown in Author response image 1.

      Author response image 1.

      Preliminary data not shown here suggest that treating macrophages with BYL exhibits a similar effect, indicating a potential pathway for investigation. Considering that the decrease in protein levels is not due to lower mRNA expression, we may infer that post-translational mechanisms are leading to early protein degradation in RAS-p110α deficient macrophages. This could explain the observed decrease in protein activation. However, the specific molecular mechanism responsible for this degradation remains unclear, and further research is necessary to elucidate it. 

      (2) In Fig 3, the authors used bone-marrow derived macrophages (BMDMs) instead of isolated monocytes to evaluate the ability of monocyte transendothelial migration, which is not sufficiently convincing. In Fig. 3B, the authors evaluated the migration in Pik3caWT/- BMDMs, and Pik3caWT/WT BMDMs treated with BYL-719'. Given that the dose effect of gene expression, the best control is Pik3caWT/- BMDMs treated with BYL-719. 

      We thank reviewer for this comment. While we agree that using BMDMs might not be the most conventional approach for studying monocyte migration, there were several reasons why we still considered them a valid method. While isolated monocytes are the initial cell type involved in transendothelial migration, bone marrow-derived macrophages (BMDMs) provide a relevant and practical model for studying this process. BMDMs are differentiated from the same bone marrow precursors as monocytes and retain the ability to respond to chemotactic signals, adhere to endothelial cells, and migrate through the endothelium. This makes them a suitable tool for examining the cellular and molecular mechanisms underlying monocyte migration and subsequent macrophage infiltration into tissues. Additionally, BMDMs offer experimental consistency and are easier to manipulate in vitro, enabling more controlled and reproducible studies. 

      In response to the comment regarding Fig. 3B, we appreciate the suggestion to use Pik3ca WT/- BMDMs treated with BYL-719 as a control. However, our rationale for using Pik3ca WT/WT BMDMs treated with BYL-719 was based on a conceptual approach rather than a purely experimental control. The BYL-719 treatment in Pik3ca WT/WT cells was intended to simulate the inhibition of p110α in a fully functional, wild-type context. This allows us to directly assess the impact of p110α inhibition under normal physiological conditions, which is more representative of what would occur in an organism where the full dose of Pik3ca is present. Using Pik3ca WT/- BMDMs treated with BYL-719 as a control may not accurately reflect the in vivo scenario, where any therapeutic intervention would likely occur in the context of a fully functional, wild-type background. Our approach aims to provide a clearer understanding of how p110α inhibition affects cell functionality in a wild-type setting, which is relevant for potential therapeutic applications. Therefore, we considered the use of Pik3ca WT/WT BMDMs with BYL-719 treatment to be a more appropriate control for testing the effects of p110α inhibition in normal conditions.

      (3) In Fig. 4E-4G, the authors observed that elevated levels of serine 3 phosphorylated Cofilin in Pik3caRBD/- BMDMs both in unstimulated and in proinflammatory conditions, and phosphorylation of Cofilin at Ser3 increase actin stabilization, it is not clear why disruption of RAS-p110α binding caused a decrease in the F-actin pool in unstimulated BMDMs? 

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful comment. During the review process, we have carefully quantified all the Western blots conducted. While we did observe an increase in phospho-Cofilin (Ser3) levels in RBD BMDMs, this increase did not reach statistical significance. As a result, we cannot confidently attribute the observed increase in F-actin to this proposed mechanism. We apologize for any confusion this may have caused. Consequently, we have removed these data from Figure 4G and the associated discussion.

      Unfortunately, we have not yet identified the underlying mechanism responsible for this phenotype. Future experiments will focus on exploring potential alterations in other actin-nucleating, regulating, and stabilizing proteins that could account for the observed changes in F-actin levels.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      Cell intrinsic signaling pathways controlling the function of macrophages in inflammatory processes, including in response to infection, injury or in the resolution of inflammation are incompletely understood. In this study, Rosell et al. investigate the contribution of RAS-p110α signaling to macrophage activity. p110α is a ubiquitously expressed catalytic subunit of PI3K with previously described roles in multiple biological processes including in epithelial cell growth and survival, and carcinogenesis. While previous studies have already suggested a role for RAS-p110α signaling in macrophages function, the cell intrinsic impact of disrupting the interaction between RAS and p110α in this central myeloid cell subset is not known. 

      Strengths: 

      Exploiting a sound previously described genetically mouse model that allows tamoxifen-inducible disruption of the RAS-p110α pathway and using different readouts of macrophage activity in vitro and in vivo, the authors provide data consistent with their conclusion that alteration in RAS-p110α signaling impairs the function of macrophages in a cell intrinsic manner. The study is well designed, clearly written with overall high-quality figures. 

      Weaknesses: 

      My main concern is that for many of the readouts, the difference between wild-type and mutant macrophages in vitro or between wild-type and Pik3caRBD mice in vivo is rather modest, even if statistically significant (e.g. Figure 1A, 1C, 2A, 2F, 3B, 4B, 4C). In other cases, such as for the analysis of the H&E images (Figure 1D-E, S1E), the images are not quantified, and it is hard to appreciate what the phenotype in samples from Pik3caRBD mice is or whether this is consistently observed across different animals. Also, the authors claim there is a 'notable decrease' in Akt activation but 'no discernible chance' in ERK activation based on the western blot data presented in Figure 1A. I do not think the data shown supports this conclusion. 

      We appreciate the reviewer's careful examination of our data and their observation regarding the modest differences between wild-type and mutant macrophages in vitro, as well as between wild-type and Pik3caRBD mice in vivo. While the differences observed in Figures 1A, 1C, 2A, 2F, 3B, 4B, and 4C are statistically significant but modest, our data demonstrate that they are biologically relevant and should be interpreted within the specific nature of our model. Our study focuses on the disruption of the RASp110α interaction, but it should be noted that alternative pathways for p110α activation, independent of RAS, remain functional in this model. Additionally, the model retains the expression of other p110 isoforms, such as p110β, p110γ, and p110δ, which are known to have significant roles in immune responses. Given the overlapping functions of these p110 isoforms, and the fact that our model involves a subtle modification that specifically affects the RAS-p110α interaction without completely abrogating p110α activity, it is understandable that only modest effects are observed in some readouts. The redundancy and compensation by other p110 isoforms likely mitigate the impact of disrupting RAS-mediated p110α activation.

      However, despite these modest in vitro differences, it is crucial to highlight that the in vivo effects on inflammation are both clear and consistent. The persistence of inflammation in our model suggests that the RAS-p110α interaction plays a specific, non-redundant role in resolving inflammation, which cannot be fully compensated by other signaling pathways or p110 isoforms. These findings underscore the importance of RAS-p110α signaling in immune homeostasis and suggest that even subtle disruptions in this pathway can lead to significant physiological consequences over time, particularly in the context of inflammation. The modest differences observed may represent early or subtle alterations that could lead to more pronounced phenotypes under specific stress or stimulation conditions. This could be tested across all the figures mentioned. For instance, in Fig. 1A, the Western blot for AKT has been quantified, demonstrating a significant decrease in AKT levels; in Fig. 1C, although the difference in paw inflammation was only a few millimeters in thickness, considering the size of a mouse paw, those millimeters were very noticeable by eye. Furthermore, pathological examination of the tissue consistently showed an increase in inflammation in RBD mice. Furthermore, the consistency of the observed differences across different readouts and experimental setups reinforces the reliability and robustness of our findings. Even modest changes that are consistently observed across different assays and conditions are indicative of genuine biological effects. The statistical significance of the differences indicates that they are unlikely to be due to random variation. This statistical rigor supports the conclusion that the observed effects, albeit modest, are real and warrant further exploration.

      Regarding the analysis of H&E images, we have now quantified the changes with the assistance of the pathologist, Mª Carmen García Macías, who has been added to the author list. We removed the colored arrows from the images and instead quantified fibrin and chromatin remnants as markers of inflammation staging. Loose chromatin, which increases as a consequence of cell death, is higher in the early phases of inflammation and decreases as macrophages phagocytose cell debris to initiate tissue healing. Chromatin content was scored on a scale from 1 to 3, where 1 represents the lowest amount and 3 the highest. The scoring was based on the area within the acute inflammatory abscess where chromatin could be found: 3 for less than 30%, 2 for 30-60%, and 1 for over 60%. Graphs corresponding to this quantification have now been added to Figure 1 and an explanation of the scale has been added to Material and Methods. 

      To further substantiate the extent of macrophage function alteration upon disruption of RAS-p110α signaling, the manuscript would benefit from testing macrophage activity in vitro and in vivo across other key macrophage activities such as bacteria phagocytosis, cytokine/chemokine production in response to titrating amounts of different PAMPs, inflammasome function, etc. This would be generally important overall but also useful to determine whether the defects in monocyte motility or macrophage lysosomal function are selectively controlled downstream of RAS-p110α signaling.  

      We thank reviewer #2 for this comment. In order to better address the role of RAS-PI3K in macrophage function, we have performed some additional experiments, some of which have been added to the revised version of the manuscript. 

      (1) We have performed cytokine microarrays of RAS-p110α deficient macrophages unstimulated and stimulated with LPS+IFN-g. Results have been added to the manuscript and to Supplementary Figure S1E and S1F. In brief, the data obtained suggest an impairment in recruitment factors, as well as in inflammatory regulators after disruption of RAS-p110α signaling in macrophages, which align with the in vivo observed phenotype. 

      (2) We also conducted phagocytosis assays to analyze the ability of RAS-p110α deficient macrophages to phagocytose 1 µm Sepharose beads, Borrelia burgdorferi, and apoptotic cells. The data reveal varied behavior of RAS-p110α deficient bone marrow-derived macrophages (BMDMs) depending on the target: 

      • Engulfment of Non-biological Particles: RAS-p110α deficient macrophages showed a decreased ability to engulf 1 µm Sepharose beads. This suggests that RAS-p110α signaling is important for the effective phagocytosis of non-biological particles. These findings have now been added to the text and figures have been added to supplementary Fig. S4A

      • Response to Bacterial Pathogens: When exposed to Borrelia burgdorferi, RAS-p110α deficient macrophages did not exhibit a change in bacterial uptake. This indicates that RAS-p110α may not play a critical role in the initial phagocytosis of this bacterial pathogen. The observed increase in the phagocytic index, although not statistically significant, might imply a compensatory mechanism or a more complex interaction that warrants further investigation. These findings have now been added to the text and figures have been added to supplementary Fig. S4B. These experiments were performed in collaboration with Dr. Anguita, from CICBioBune (Bilbao, Spain) and, as a consequence, he has been added as an author in the paper. 

      • Phagocytosis of Apoptotic Cells: There were no differences in the phagocytosis rate of apoptotic cells between RAS-p110α deficient and control macrophages at early time points. However, the accumulation of engulfed material at later time points suggests a possible delay in the processing and degradation of apoptotic cells in the absence of RAS-p110α signaling.

      These findings highlight the complexity of RAS-p110α's involvement in phagocytic processes and suggest that its role may vary with different types of phagocytic targets. 

      Furthermore, given the key role of other myeloid cells besides macrophages in inflammation and immunity it remains unclear whether the phenotype observed in vivo can be attributed to impaired macrophage function. Is the function of neutrophils, dendritic cells or other key innate immune cells not affected? 

      Thank you for this insightful comment. We understand the key role of other myeloid cells in inflammation and immunity. However, our study specifically focuses on the role of macrophages. Our data show that disruption of RAS-PI3K leads to a clear defect in macrophage extravasation, and our in vitro data demonstrate issues in macrophage cytoskeleton and phagocytosis, aligning with the in vivo phenotype.

      Experiments investigating the role of RAS-PI3K in neutrophils, dendritic cells, or other innate immune cells are beyond the scope of this study. Understanding these interactions would indeed require separate, comprehensive studies and the generation of new mouse models to disrupt RAS-PI3K exclusively in specific cell types.

      Furthermore, during paw inflammation experiments, polymorphonuclear cells were present from the initial phases of the inflammatory response. What caught our attention was the prolonged presence of these cells. In conversation with our in-house pathologist, she mentioned the lack of macrophages to remove dead polymorphonuclear cells in our RAS-PI3K mutant mice. Specific staining for macrophages confirmed the absence of macrophages in the inflamed node of mutant mice.

      We acknowledge that further research is necessary to elucidate the effects on other myeloid cells. However, our current findings provide clear evidence of a decrease in inflammatory monocytes and defective macrophage responses to inflammation, both in vivo and in vitro. We believe these results significantly contribute to understanding the role of RAS-PI3K in macrophage function during inflammation.

      Compelling proof of concept data that targeting RAS-p110α signalling constitutes indeed a putative approach for modulation of chronic inflammation is lacking. Addressing this further would increase the conceptual advance of the manuscript and provide extra support to the authors' suggestion that p110α inhibition or activation constitute promising approaches to manage inflammation. 

      We thank Reviewer #2 for this insightful comment. In our manuscript, we have demonstrated through multiple experiments that the inhibition of p110α, either by disrupting RAS-p110α signaling or through the use of Alpelisib (BYL-719), has a modulatory effect on inflammatory responses. However, we acknowledge that we have not activated the pathway due to the unavailability of a suitable p110α activator until the concluding phase of our study.

      We recognize the importance of this point and are eager about investigating both the inhibition and activation of p110α as potential approaches to managing inflammation in well-established inflammatory disease models. We believe that such comprehensive studies would significantly enhance the conceptual advance and translational relevance of our findings.

      However, it is essential to note that the primary aim of our current work was to demonstrate the role of RAS-p110α in the inflammatory responses of macrophages. We have successfully shown that RASp110α influences macrophage behavior and inflammatory signaling. Expanding the scope to include disease models and pathway activation studies would be an extensive project that goes beyond the current objectives of this manuscript. While our present study establishes the foundational role of RASp110α in macrophage-mediated inflammatory responses, we agree that further investigation into both p110α inhibition and activation in disease models is crucial. We are keen to pursue this line of research in future studies, which we believe will provide robust evidence supporting the therapeutic potential of targeting RAS-p110α signaling in chronic inflammation.

      Finally, the analysis by FACS should also include information about the total number of cells, not just the percentage, which is affected by the relative change in other populations. On this point, Figure S2B shows a substantial, albeit not significant (with less number of mice analysed), increase in the percentage of CD3+ cells. Is there an increase in the absolute number of T cells or does this apparent relative increase reflect a reduction in myeloid cells? 

      We thank the reviewer for this comment, which we have addressed in the revised version of the manuscript. Regarding the total number of cells analyzed, we have added to the Materials and Methods section that in all our studies, a total of 50,000 cells were analyzed (line 749). The percentages of cells are related to these 50,000 events. Additionally, we have increased the number of mice analyzed by including new mice for CD3+ cell analysis. Despite this, the results remain not significant.

      Recommendations for the authors:  

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):   

      (1) It is recommended to provide a graphical abstract to summarize the multiple functions of RAS-p110α pathway in monocyte/macrophages that the authors proposed 

      We thank reviewer for this useful recommendation. A graphical abstract has now been added to the study. 

      (2) Western blots in this paper need quantification and a measure of reproducibility 

      We have now added a graph with the quantification of the western blots performed in this work as a measure of reproducibility. 

      (3) Representative flow data and gating strategy should be included

      We have now added the description of the gating strategy followed to material and methods section.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer 1:

      (1) Peptides were synthesized with fluorescein isothiocyanate (FITC) and Tat tag, and then PEGylated with methoxy PEG Succinimidyl Succinate.

      I have two concerns about the peptide design. First, FTIC was intended "for monitoring" (line 129), but was never used in the manuscript. Second, PEGylation targets the two lysine sidechains on the Tat, which would alter its penetration property.

      We conducted an analysis of the cellular trafficking of FITC-tagged peptides following their permeabilization into cells.

      Author response image 1.

      However, we did not include it in the main text because it is a basic result.

      (2) As can be seen in the figure above, after pegylation and permeabilization, the cells were stained with FITC. It appears that this does not affect the ability to penetrate into the cells.

      (2) "Superdex 200 increase 10/300 GL column" (line 437) was used to isolate mono/di PEGylated PDZ and separate them from the residual PEG and PDZ peptide. "m-PEG-succinimidyl succinate with an average molecular weight of 5000 Da" (lines 133 and 134).

      To my knowledge, the Superdex 200 increase 10/300 GL column is not suitable and is unlikely to produce traces shown in Figure 1B.

      As Superdex 200 increase 10/300 GL featrues a fractionation range of 10,000 to 600,000 Da, we used it to fractionate PEGylated products including DiPEGylated PDZ (approx. 15 kDa) and MonoPEGylated PDZ (approx. 10 kDa) from residuals (PDZ and PEG), demonstrating successful isolation of PEGylated products (Figure 1C). Considering the molecular weights of PDZ and PEG are approximately 4.1 kDa and and 5.0 kDa, respectively, the late eluting peaks from SEC were likely to represent a mixed absorbance of PDZ and PEG at 215 nm.

      However, as the reviewer pointed out, it could be unreasonable to annotate peaks representing PDZ and PEG, respectively, from mixed absorbance detected in a region (11-12 min) beyond the fractionation range.

      In our revised manuscript, therefore, multiple peaks in the late eluting volume (11-12 min) were labeled as 'Residuals' all together. As a reference, the revised figure 1B includes a chromatogram of pure PDZ-WT under the same analytic condition.

      Therefore, we changed Fig.1B to new results as followed:

      (3) "the in vivo survival effect of LPS and PDZ co-administration was examined in mice. The pretreatment with WT PDZ peptide significantly increased survival and rescued compared to LPS only; these effects were not observed with the mut PDZ peptide (Figure 2a)." (lines 159-160).

      Fig 2a is the weight curve only. The data is missing in the manuscript.

      We added the survived curve into Fig. 2A as followed:

      (4) Table 1, peptide treatment on ALT and AST appears minor.

      In mice treated with LPS, levels of ALT and AGT in the blood are elevated, but these levels decrease upon treatment with WT PDZ. However, the use of mut PDZ does not result in significant changes. Figure 3A shows inflammatory cells within the central vein, yet no substantial hepatotoxicity is observed during the 5-day treatment with LPS. Normally, the ranges of ALT and AGT in C57BL6 mice are 16 ~ 200 U/L and 46 ~ 221 U/L, respectively, according to UCLA Diagnostic Labs. Therefore, the values in all experiments fall within these normal ranges. In summary, a 5-day treatment with LPS induces inflammation in the liver but is too short a duration to induce hepatotoxicity, resulting in lower values.

      (5) MitoTraker Green FM shouldn't produce red images in Figure 6.

      We changed new results (GREEN one) into Figs 6A and B as followed:

      (6) Figure 5. Comparison of mRNA expression in PDZ-treated BEAS-2B cells. Needs a clearer and more detailed description both in the main text and figure legend. The current version is very hard to read.

      We changed Fig. 5A to new one to understand much easier and added more detailed results and figure legend as followed:

      Results Section in Figure 5:

      “…we performed RNA sequencing analysis. The results of RNA-seq analysis showed the expression pattern of 24,424 genes according to each comparison combination, of which the results showed the similarity of 51 genes overlapping in 4 gene categories and the similarity between each comparison combination (Figure 5a). As a result, compared to the control group, it was confirmed that LPS alone, WT PDZ+LPS, and mut PDZ+LPS were all upregulated above the average value in each gene, and when LPS treatment alone was compared with WT PDZ+LPS, it was confirmed that they were averaged or downregulated. When comparing LPS treatment alone and mut PDZ+LPS, it was confirmed that about half of the genes were upregulated. Regarding the similarity between comparison combinations, the comparison combination with LPS…”

      Figure 5 Legend Section:

      “Figure 5. Comparison of mRNA expression in PDZ-treated BEAS-2B cells.

      BEAS-2B cells were treated with wild-type PDZ or mutant PDZ peptide for 24 h and then incubated with LPS for 2 h, after which RNA sequencing analysis was performed. (a) The heat map shows the general regulation pattern of about 51 inflammation-related genes that are differentially expressed when WT PDZ and mut PDZ are treated with LPS, an inflammatory substance. All samples are RED = upregulated and BLUE = downregulated relative to the gene average. Each row represents a gene, and the columns represent the values of the control group treated only with LPS and the WT PDZ and mut PDZ groups with LPS. This was used by converting each log value into a fold change value. All genes were adjusted to have the same mean and standard deviation, the unit of change is the standard deviation from the mean, and the color value range of each row is the same. (b) Significant genes were selected using Gene category chat (Fold change value of 2.00 and normalized data (log2) value of 4.00). The above pie chart shows the distribution of four gene categories when comparing LPS versus control, WT PDZ+LPS/LPS, and mut PDZ+LPS/LPS. The bar graph below shows RED=upregulated, GREEN=downregulated for each gene category, and shows the number of upregulated and downregulated genes in each gene category. (c) The protein-protein interaction network constructed by the STRING database differentially displays commonly occurring genes by comparing WT PDZ+LPS/LPS, mut PDZ+LPS/LPS, and LPS. These nodes represent proteins associated with inflammation, and these connecting lines denote interactions between two proteins. Different line thicknesses indicate types of evidence used in predicting the associations.”

      Reviewer 2:

      (1) In this paper, the authors demonstrated the anti-inflammatory effect of PDZ peptide by inhibition of NF-kB signaling. Are there any results on the PDZ peptide-binding proteins (directly or indirectly) that can regulate LPS-induced inflammatory signaling pathway? Elucidation of the PDZ peptide-its binding partner protein and regulatory mechanisms will strengthen the author's hypothesis about the anti-inflammatory effects of PDZ peptide

      As mentioned in the Discussion section, we believe it is crucial to identify proteins that directly interact with PDZ and regulate it. This direct interaction can modulate intracellular signaling pathways, so we plan to express GST-PDZ and induce binding with cellular lysates, then characterize it using the LC-Mass/Mass method. We intend to further research these findings and submit them for publication.

      (2) The authors presented interesting insights into the therapeutic role of the PDZ motif peptide of ZO-1. PDZ domains are protein-protein interaction modules found in a variety of species. It has been thought that many cellular and biological functions, especially those involving signal transduction complexes, are affected by PDZ-mediated interactions. What is the rationale for selecting the core sequence that regulates inflammation among the PDZ motifs of ZO-1 shown in Figure 1A?

      The rationale for selecting the core sequence that regulates inflammation among the PDZ motifs of ZO-1, as shown in Figure 1A, is grounded in the specific roles these motifs play in signal transduction pathways that are crucial for inflammatory processes. PDZ domains are recognized for their ability to function as scaffolding proteins that organize signal transduction complexes, crucial for modulating cellular and biological functions. The chosen core sequence is particularly important because it is conserved across ZO-1, ZO-2, and ZO-3, indicating a fundamental role in maintaining cellular integrity and signaling pathways. This conservation suggests that the sequence’s involvement in inflammatory regulation is not only significant in ZO-1 but also reflects a broader biological function across the ZO family.

      (3) In Figure 3, the authors showed the representative images of IHC, please add the quantification analysis of Iba1 expression and PAS-positive cells using Image J or other software. To help understand the figure, an indication is needed to distinguish specifically stained cells (for example, a dotted line or an arrow).

      We added the semi-quantitative results into Figs. 4d,e,f as followed:

      Result section: “The specific physiological mechanism by which WT PDZ peptide decreases LPS-induced systemic inflammation in mice and the signal molecules involved remain unclear. These were confirmed by a semi-quantitative analysis of Iba-1 immunoreactivity and PAS staining in liver, kidney, and lung,respectively (Figures 4d, e, and f). To examine whether WT PDZ peptide can alter LPS-induced tissue damage in the kidney, cell toxicity assay was performed (Figure 3g). LPS induced cell damage in the kidney, however, WT PDZ peptide could significantly alleviate the toxicity, but mut PDZ peptide could not. Because cytotoxicity caused by LPS is frequently due to ROS production in the kidney (Su et al., 2023; Qiongyue et al., 2022), ROS production in the mitochondria was investigated in renal mitochondria cells harvested from kidney tissue (Figure 3h)....”

      Figure legend section: “Indicated scale bars were 20 μm. (d,e,f) Semi-quantitative analysis of each are positive for Iba-1 in liver and kidney, and positive cells of PAS in lung, respectively. (g) After the kidneys were harvested, tissue lysates were used for MTT assay. (h) After...”

      (4) In Figure 6G, H, the authors confirmed the change in expression of the M2 markers by PDZ peptide using the mouse monocyte cell line Raw264.7. It would be good to add an experiment on changes in M1 and M2 markers caused by PDZ peptides in human monocyte cells (for example, THP-1).

      We thank you for your comments. To determine whether PDZ peptide regulates M1/M2 polarization in human monocytes, we examined changes in M1 and M2 gene expression in THP-1 cells. As a result, wild-type PDZ significantly suppressed the expression of M1 marker genes (hlL-1β, hIL-6, hIL-8, hTNF-ɑ), while increasing the expression of M2 marker genes (hlL-4, hIL-10, hMRC-1). However, mutant PDZ did not affect M1/M2 polarization. These results suggest that PDZ peptide can suppress inflammation by regulating M1/M2 polarization of human monocyte cells. These results are for the reviewer's reference only and will not be included in the main content.

      Author response image 2.

      Author response image 3.

      Minor point:

      The use of language is appropriate, with good writing skills. Nevertheless, a thorough proofread would eliminate small mistakes such as:

      - line 254, " mut PDZ+LPS/LPS (45.75%) " → " mut PDZ+LPS/LPS (47.75%) "

      - line 296, " Figure 6f " → " Figure 6h "

      We changed these points into the manuscript.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This important study identifies a novel CRF-positive projection from the central amygdala and BNST to dorsal striatal cholinergic interneurons, revealing a previously unrecognized pathway by which stress signals modulate striatal function. The authors present strong and convincing evidence for the anatomical and functional connectivity of this circuit and demonstrate that alcohol disrupts CRF-mediated cholinergic activity, supporting its relevance to alcohol use disorder.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors show that corticotropin-releasing factor (CRF) neurons in the central amygdala (CeA) and bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BNST) monosynaptically target cholinergic interneurons (CINs) in the dorsal striatum of rodents. Functionally, activation of CRFR1 receptors increases CIN firing rate, and this modulation was reduced by pre-exposure to ethanol. This is an interesting finding, with potential significance for alcohol use disorders, but some conclusions could use additional support.

      Strengths:

      Well-conceived circuit mapping experiments identify a novel pathway by which the CeA and BNST can modulate dorsal striatal function by controlling cholinergic tone. Important insight into how CRF, a neuropeptide that is important in mediating aspects of stress, affective/motivational processes, and drug-seeking, modulates dorsal striatal function.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Tracing and expression experiments were performed both in mice and rats (in a mostly non-overlapping way). While these species are similar in many ways, some conclusions are based on assumptions of similarities that the presented data do not directly show. In most cases, this should be addressed in the text (but see point number 2).

      (2) Experiments in rats show that CRFR1 expression is largely confined to a subpopulation of striatal CINs. Is this true in mice, too? Since most electrophysiological experiments are done in various synaptic antagonists and/or TTX, it does not affect the interpretation of those data, but non-CIN expression of CRFR1 could potentially have a large impact on bath CRF-induced acetylcholine release.

      (3) Experiments in rats show that about 30% of CINs express CRFR1 in rats. Did only a similar percentage of CINs in mice respond to bath application of CRF? The effect sizes and error bars in Figure 5 imply that the majority of recorded CINs likely responded. Were exclusion criteria used in these experiments?

      (4) The conclusion that prior acute alcohol exposure reduces the ability of subsequent alcohol exposure to suppress CIN activity in the presence of CRF may be a bit overstated. In Figure 6D (no ethanol pre-exposure), ethanol does not fully suppress CIN firing rate to baseline after CRF exposure. The attenuated effect of CRF on CIN firing rate after ethanol pre-treatment (6E) may just reduce the maximum potential effect that ethanol can have on firing rate after CRF, due to a lowered starting point. It is possible that the lack of significant effect of ethanol after CRF in pre-treated mice is an issue of experimental sensitivity. Related to this point, does pre-treatment with ethanol reduce the later CIN response to acute ethanol application (in the absence of CRF)?

      (5) More details about the area of the dorsal striatum being examined would be helpful (i.e., a-p axis).

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Essoh and colleagues present a thorough and elegant study identifying the central amygdala and BNST as key sources of CRF input to the dorsal striatum. Using monosynaptic rabies tracing and electrophysiology, they show direct connections to cholinergic interneurons. The study builds on previous findings that CRF increases CIN firing, extending them by measuring acetylcholine levels in slices and applying optogenetic stimulation of CRF+ fibers. It also uncovers a novel interaction between alcohol and CRF signaling in the striatum, likely to spark significant interest and future research.

      Strengths:

      A key strength is the integration of anatomical and functional approaches to demonstrate these projections and assess their impact on target cells, striatal cholinergic interneurons.

      Weaknesses:

      The nature of the interaction between alcohol and CRF actions on cholinergic neurons remains unclear. Also, further clarification of the ACh sensor used and others is required

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors demonstrate that CRF neurons in the extended amygdala form GABAergic synapses onto cholinergic interneurons and that CRF can excite these neurons. The evidence is strong, however, the authors fail to make a compelling connection showing CRF released from these extended amygdala neurons is mediating any of these effects. Further, they show that acute alcohol appears to modulate this action, although the effect size is not particularly robust.

      Strengths:

      This is an exciting connection from the extended amygdala to the striatum that provides a new direction for how these regions can modulate behavior. The work is rigorous and well done.

      Weaknesses:

      While the authors show that opto stim of these neurons can increase firing, this is not shown to be CRFR1 dependent. In addition, the effects of acute ethanol are not particularly robust or rigorously evaluated. Further, the opto stim experiments are conducted in an Ai32 mouse, so it is impossible to determine if that is from CEA and BNST, vs. another population of CRF-containing neurons. This is an important caveat.

    5. Reviewer #4 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript presents a compelling and methodologically rigorous investigation into how corticotropin-releasing factor (CRF) modulates cholinergic interneurons (CINs) in the dorsal striatum - a brain region central to cognitive flexibility and action selection-and how this circuit is disrupted by alcohol exposure. Through an integrated series of anatomical, optogenetic, electrophysiological, and imaging experiments, the authors uncover a previously uncharacterized CRF⁺ projection from the central amygdala (CeA) and bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BNST) to dorsal striatal CINs.

      Strengths:

      Key strengths of the study include the use of state-of-the-art monosynaptic rabies tracing, CRF-Cre transgenic models, CRFR1 reporter lines, and functional validation of synaptic connectivity and neurotransmitter release. The finding that CRF enhances CIN excitability and acetylcholine (ACh) release via CRFR1, and that this effect is attenuated by acute alcohol exposure and withdrawal, provides important mechanistic insight into how stress and alcohol interact to impair striatal function. These results position CRF signaling in CINs as a novel contributor to alcohol use disorder (AUD) pathophysiology, with implications for relapse vulnerability and cognitive inflexibility associated with chronic alcohol intake.

      The study is well-structured, with a clear rationale, thorough methodology, and logical progression of results. The discussion effectively contextualizes the findings within broader addiction neuroscience literature and suggests meaningful future directions, including therapeutic targeting of CRFR1 signaling in the dorsal striatum.

      Weaknesses:

      Minor areas for improvement include occasional redundancy in phrasing, slightly overlong descriptions in the abstract and significance sections, and a need for more concise language in some places. Nevertheless, these do not detract from the manuscript's overall quality or impact.

      Overall, this is a highly valuable contribution to the fields of addiction neuroscience and striatal circuit function, offering novel insights into stress-alcohol interactions at the cellular and circuit level, which requires minor editorial revisions.

    6. Author response:

      We have outlined a clear plan to revise and strengthen the manuscript by addressing key experimental concerns raised in the public reviews.

      Summary of Planned Revisions:

      We intend to address the following points through new experiments or additional analyses:

      Reviewer #1, Concern 2:<br /> “CRFR1 expression is largely confined to a subpopulation of striatal CINs in rats—Is this also true in mice?”

      To address this, we will obtaine CRFR1-GFP mice and perform immunohistochemistry for ChAT to assess the overlap between CRFR1-GFP+ neurons and CINs in the dorsal striatum. This will allow us to directly determine whether CRFR1 expression is similarly restricted in mice as it is in rats.

      Reviewer #1, Concern 3:<br /> “In rats, ~30% of CINs express CRFR1. Did a similar proportion of CINs in mice respond to CRF application?”

      We will revisit and re-analyze our electrophysiological dataset to calculate the percentage of recorded CINs in mice that respond to bath-applied CRF. Our preliminary analysis suggests a higher response rate (>90%), and we will reconcile this with expression data, discuss possible mechanisms (e.g., indirect effects or species-specific differences), and provide a clear explanation in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2, Recommendation 5:<br /> “Can the authors quantify the onset delay of optogenetic responses from CRF+ axons onto CINs?”

      We initially performed this experiment in a single animal. To strengthen our conclusion of monosynaptic connectivity, we will increase the sample size (additional injections in CRF-Cre mice) and quantify the onset latency of optogenetically evoked responses in CINs.

      Reviewer #2, Recommendation 7:<br /> “Are CRFR1+ CINs equally distributed in DMS vs. DLS?”

      We will re-analyze existing immunohistochemical images from Figure 4 to compare the density (cells/µm²) of CRFR1+ CINs in the dorsomedial vs. dorsolateral striatum. This analysis will help clarify whether there is a regional bias in CRFR1 expression across striatal subdomains.

      Reviewer #3, Recommendation 1:<br /> “Test whether CRFR1 mediates the effect of optogenetic stimulation on CIN firing.”

      We will directly test CRFR1-dependence of optogenetically evoked CIN excitation by applying a CRFR1 antagonist during optical stimulation of CRF+ terminals and evaluating the effect on CIN firing. This will clarify whether the CRF effect is receptor-mediated and strengthen the interpretation of our functional findings.

      We may conduct more experiment to address other concerns. These targeted experiments will significantly enhance the rigor and mechanistic insight of our study.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The aim of this paper is to develop a simple method to quantify fluctuations in the partitioning of cellular elements. In particular, they propose a flow-cytometry-based method coupled with a simple mathematical theory as an alternative to conventional imaging-based approaches.

      Strengths:

      The approach they develop is simple to understand and its use with flow-cytometry measurements is clearly explained. Understanding how the fluctuations in the cytoplasm partition vary for different kinds of cells is particularly interesting.

      Weaknesses:

      The theory only considers fluctuations due to cellular division events. This seems a large weakness because it is well known that fluctuations in cellular components are largely affected by various intrinsic and extrinsic sources of noise and only under particular conditions does partitioning noise become the dominant source of noise.

      We thank the Reviewer for her/his evaluation of our manuscript. The point raised is indeed a crucial one. In a cell division cycle, there are at least three distinct sources of noise that affect component numbers [1] : 

      (1) Gene expression and degradation, which determine component numbers fluctuations during cell growth.

      (2) Variability in cell division time, which depending on the underlying model may or may not be a function of protein level and gene expression.

      (3) Noise in the partitioning/inheritance of components between mother and daughter cells.

      Our approach specifically addresses the latter, with the goal of providing a quantitative measure of this noise source. For this reason, in the present work, we consider homogeneous cancer cell populations that could be considered to be stationary from a population point-of-view. By tracking the time evolution of the distribution of tagged components via live fluorescent markers, we aim at isolating partitioning noise effects. However, as noted by the Reviewer, other sources of noise are present, and depending on the considered system the relative contributions of the different sources may change. Thus, we agree that a quantification of the effect of the various noise sources on the accuracy of our measurements will improve the reliability of our method. 

      In this respect, assuming independence between noise sources, we reasoned that variability in cell cycle length would affect the timing of population emergence but not the intrinsic properties of those populations (e.g., Gaussian variance). To test this hypothesis, we conducted a preliminary set of simulations in which cell division times were drawn from an Erlang distribution (mean = 18 h, k=4k = 4k=4). The results, showing the behavior of the mean and variance of the component distributions across generations, are presented in Author response image 1. Under the assumption of independence between different noise sources, no significant effects were observed. Next, we plan to quantify the accuracy of our measurements in the presence of cross-talks between the various noise sources. As suggested, we will update the manuscript to include a more complete discussion on this topic and an evaluation of our model’s stability.

      Author response image 1.

      Variance and mean of the distribution of fluorescence intensity as a function of the generation for a time course dynamic with cell-cycle length variability. We repeated the same simulations as the one in figure 1 of the manuscript, but introducing a variable division time for each cell. The division time of each cell is extracted from an Erlang distribution (mean = 18 h and k = 4). As it is possible to observe in the plots, the results of our theoretical framework are not affected from the introduction of this variability. Hence, the Gaussian Mixture Model is still able to give the correct results  even in a noisy environment.

      (1) Soltani, Mohammad, et al. "Intercellular variability in protein levels from stochastic expression and noisy cell cycle processes." PLoS computational biology 12.8 (2016): e1004972.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors present a combined experimental and theoretical workflow to study partitioning noise arising during cell division. Such quantifications usually require time-lapse experiments, which are limited in throughput. To bypass these limitations, the authors propose to use flow-cytometry measurements instead and analyse them using a theoretical model of partitioning noise. The problem considered by the authors is relevant and the idea to use statistical models in combination with flow cytometry to boost statistical power is elegant. The authors demonstrate their approach using experimental flow cytometry measurements and validate their results using time-lapse microscopy. However, while I appreciate the overall goal and motivation of this work, I was not entirely convinced by the strength of this contribution. The approach focuses on a quite specific case, where the dynamics of the labelled component depend purely on partitioning. As such it seems incompatible with studying the partitioning noise of endogenous components that exhibit production/turnover. The description of the methods was partly hard to follow and should be improved. In addition, I have several technical comments, which I hope will be helpful to the authors.

      We are grateful to the Reviewer for her/his comments. Indeed, both partitioning and production turnover noise are in general fundamental processes. At present the only way to consider them together are time-consuming and costly transfection/microscopy/tracking experiments. In this work, we aimed at developing a method to effectively pinpoint the first component, i.e. partitioning noise thus we opted to separate the two different noise sources.  

      Below, we provide a point-by-point response that we hope will clarify all raised concerns.

      Comments:

      (1) In the theoretical model, copy numbers are considered to be conserved across generations. As a consequence, concentrations will decrease over generations due to dilution. While this consideration seems plausible for the considered experimental system, it seems incompatible with components that exhibit production and turnover dynamics. I am therefore wondering about the applicability/scope of the presented approach and to what extent it can be used to study partitioning noise for endogenous components. As presented, the approach seems to be limited to a fairly small class of experiments/situations.

      We see the Reviewer's point. Indeed, we are proposing a high-throughput and robust procedure to measure the partitioning/inheritance noise of cell components through flow cytometry time courses. By using live-cell staining of cellular compounds, we can track the effect of partitioning noise on fluorescence intensity distribution across successive generations. This specific procedure is purposely optimized to isolate partitioning noise from other sources and, as it is, can not track endogenous components or dyes that require fixation. While this certainly poses limits to the proposed approach, there are numerous contexts in which our methodology could be used to explore the role of asymmetric inheritance. Among others, (i) investigating how specific organelles are differentially partitioned and how this influences cellular behavior could provide deeper insights into fundamental biological processes: asymmetric segregation of organelles is a key factor in cell differentiation, aging, and stress response. During cell division, organelles such as mitochondria, the endoplasmic reticulum, lysosomes, peroxisomes, and centrosomes can be unequally distributed between daughter cells, leading to functional differences that influence their fate. For instance, Kajaitso et al. [1] proposed that asymmetric division of mitochondria in stem cells is associated with the retention of stemness traits in one daughter cell and differentiation in the other. As organisms age, stem cells accumulate damage, and to prevent exhaustion and compromised tissue function, cells may use asymmetric inheritance to segregate older or damaged subcellular components into one daughter cell. (ii) Asymmetric division has also been linked to therapeutic resistance in Cancer Stem Cells  [2]. Although the functional consequences are not yet fully determined, the asymmetric inheritance of mitochondria is recognized as playing a pivotal role [3]. Another potential application of our methodology may be (iii) the inheritance of lysosomes, which, together with mitochondria, appears to play a crucial role in determining the fate of human blood stem cells [4]. Furthermore, similar to studies conducted on liquid tumors [5][6], our approach could be extended to investigate cell growth dynamics and the origins of cell size homeostasis in adherent cells [7][8][9].  The aforementioned cases of study can be readily addressed using our approach that in general is applicable whenever live-cell dyes can be used. We will add a discussion of the strengths and limitations of the method in the Discussion section of the revised version of the manuscript. 

      (1) Katajisto, Pekka, et al. "Asymmetric apportioning of aged mitochondria between daughter cells is required for stemness." Science 348.6232 (2015): 340-343.

      (2) Hitomi, Masahiro, et al. "Asymmetric cell division promotes therapeutic resistance in glioblastoma stem cells." JCI insight 6.3 (2021): e130510.

      (3) García-Heredia, José Manuel, and Amancio Carnero. "Role of mitochondria in cancer stem cell resistance." Cells 9.7 (2020): 1693.

      (4) Loeffler, Dirk, et al. "Asymmetric organelle inheritance predicts human blood stem cell fate." Blood, The Journal of the American Society of Hematology 139.13 (2022): 2011-2023.

      (5) Miotto, Mattia, et al. "Determining cancer cells division strategy." arXiv preprint arXiv:2306.10905 (2023).

      (6) Miotto, Mattia, et al. "A size-dependent division strategy accounts for leukemia cell size heterogeneity." Communications Physics 7.1 (2024): 248.

      (7) Kussell, Edo, and Stanislas Leibler. "Phenotypic diversity, population growth, and information in fluctuating environments." Science 309.5743 (2005): 2075-2078.

      (8) McGranahan, Nicholas, and Charles Swanton. "Clonal heterogeneity and tumor evolution: past, present, and the future." Cell 168.4 (2017): 613-628.

      (9) De Martino, Andrea, Thomas Gueudré, and Mattia Miotto. "Exploration-exploitation tradeoffs dictate the optimal distributions of phenotypes for populations subject to fitness fluctuations." Physical Review E 99.1 (2019): 012417.

      (2) Similar to the previous comment, I am wondering what would happen in situations where the generations could not be as clearly identified as in the presented experimental system (e.g., due to variability in cell-cycle length/stage). In this case, it seems to be challenging to identify generations using a Gaussian Mixture Model. Can the authors comment on how to deal with such situations? In the abstract, the authors motivate their work by arguing that detecting cell divisions from microscopy is difficult, but doesn't their flow cytometry-based approach have a similar problem?

      The point raised is an important one, as it highlights the fundamental role of the gating strategy. The ability to identify the distribution of different generations using the Gaussian Mixture Model (GMM) strongly depends on the degree of overlap between distributions. The more the distributions overlap, the less capable we are of accurately separating them.

      The extent of overlap is influenced by the coefficients of variation (CV) of both the partitioning distribution function and the initial component distribution. Specifically, the component distribution at time t results from the convolution of the component distribution itself at time t−1 and the partitioning distribution function. Therefore, starting with a narrow initial component distribution allows for better separation of the generation peaks. The balance between partitioning asymmetry and the width of the initial component distribution is thus crucial.

      As shown in Author response image 2, increasing the CV of either distribution reduces the ability to distinguish between different generations.

      Author response image 2.

      Components distribution at varying CVs of initial components and partitioning distributions. Starting from a condition in which both division asymmetry and wideness of the initial components distribution are low and different generations are clearly separable, increasing either the CVs leads to distribution mixing and greater reconstruction difficulty.

      However, the variance of the initial distribution cannot be reduced arbitrarily. While selecting a narrow distribution facilitates a better reconstruction of the distributions, it simultaneously limits the number of cells available for the experiment. Therefore, for components exhibiting a high level of asymmetry, further narrowing of the initial distribution becomes experimentally impractical.

      In such cases, an approach previously tested on liquid tumors [1] involves applying the Gaussian Mixture Model (GMM) in two dimensions by co-staining another cellular component with lower division asymmetry.

      Regarding time-lapse fluorescence microscopy, the main challenge lies not in disentangling the interplay of different noise sources, but rather in obtaining sufficient statistical power from experimental data. While microscopy provides detailed insights into the division process and component partitioning, its low throughput limits large-scale statistical analyses. Current segmentation algorithms still perform poorly in crowded environments and with complex cell shapes, requiring a substantial portion of the image analysis pipeline to be performed manually, a process that is time-consuming and difficult to scale. In contrast, our cytometry-based approach bypasses this analysis bottleneck, as it enables a direct population-wide measurement of the system's evolution. We will provide a detailed discussion on these aspects in the revised version of the manuscript.

      (1) Peruzzi, Giovanna, et al. "Asymmetric binomial statistics explains organelle partitioning variance in cancer cell proliferation." Communications Physics 4.1 (2021): 188.

      (3) I could not find any formal definition of division asymmetry. Since this is the most important quantity of this paper, it should be defined clearly.

      We thank the Reviewer for the note. With division asymmetry we refer to a quantity that reflects how similar two daughter cells are likely to be in terms of inherited components after a division process. We opted to measure it via the coefficient of variation (root squared variance divided by the mean) of the partitioning fraction distribution. We will amend this lack of definition in the reviewed version of the manuscript. 

      (4) The description of the model is unclear/imprecise in several parts. For instance, it seems to me that the index "i" does not really refer to a cell in the population, but rather a subpopulation of cells that has undergone a certain number of divisions. Furthermore, why is the argument of Equation 11 suddenly the fraction f as opposed to the component number? I strongly recommend carefully rewriting and streamlining the model description and clearly defining all quantities and how they relate to each other.

      We are amending the text carefully to avoid double naming of variables and clarifying each computation passage. In equation 11 the variable f refers to the fluorescent intensity, but the notation will be changed to increase clarity. 

      (5) Similarly, I was not able to follow the logic of Section D. I recommend carefully rewriting this section to make the rationale, logic, and conclusions clear to the reader.

      We will update the manuscript clarifying the scope of section D and its results. In brief, Section A presents a general model to derive the variance of the partitioning distribution from flow cytometry time-course data without making any assumptions about the shape of the distribution itself. In Section D, our goal is to interpret the origin of asymmetry and propose a possible form for the partitioning distribution. Since the dyes used bind non-specifically to cytoplasmic amines, the tagged proteins are expected to be uniformly distributed throughout the cytoplasm and present in large numbers. Given these assumptions the least complex model for division follows the binomial distribution, with a parameter that measures the bias in the process. Therefore, we performed a similar computation to that in Section A, which allows us to estimate not only the variance but also the degree of biased asymmetry. Finally, we fitted the data to this new model and proposed an experimental interpretation of the results.

      (6) Much theoretical work has been done recently to couple cell-cycle variability to intracellular dynamics. While the authors neglect the latter for simplicity, it would be important to further discuss these approaches and why their simplified model is suitable for their particular experiments.

      We agree with the Reviewer, we will discuss this aspect in the revised version of the manuscript.

      (7) In the discussion the authors note that the microscopy-based estimates may lead to an overestimation of the fluctuations due to limited statistics. I could not follow that reasoning. Due to the gating in the flow cytometry measurements, I could imagine that the resulting populations are more stringently selected as compared to microscopy. Could that also be an explanation? More generally, it would be interesting to see how robust the results are in terms of different gating diameters.

      The Reviewer is right on the importance of the sorting procedure. As already discussed in a previous point, the gating strategy we employed plays a fundamental role: it reduces the overlap of fluorescence distributions as generations progress, enables the selection of an initial distribution distinct from the fluorescence background, allowing for longer tracking of proliferation, and synchronizes the initial population. The narrower the initial distribution, the more separated the peaks of different generations will be. However, this also results in a smaller number of cells available for the experiment, requiring a careful balance between precision and experimental feasibility. A similar procedure, although it would certainly limit the estimation error, would be impracticable In the case of microscopy. Indeed, the primary limitation and source of error is the number of recorded events. Our pipeline allowed us to track on the order of hundreds of division dynamics, but the analysis time scales non-linearly with the number of events. Significantly increasing the dataset would have been extremely time-consuming. Reducing the analysis to cells with similar fluorescence, although theoretically true, would have reduced the statistics to a level where the sampling error would drastically dominate the measure. Moreover, different experiments would have been hardly comparable, since different fluorescences could map in equally sized cells. In light of these factors, we expect higher CV for the microscopy measure than for flow cytometry’s ones.  In the plots below, we show the behaviour of the mean and the standard deviation of N numbers sampled from a gaussian distribution N(0,1) as a function of the sampling number N. The higher is N the closer the sampled distribution will be to the true one. The region in the hundreds of samples is still very noisy, but to do much better we would have to reach the order of thousands. We will add a discussion on these aspects in the reviewed version of the manuscript. 

      Author response image 3.

      Standard deviation and mean value of a distribution of points sampled from a Gaussian distribution with mean 0 and standard deviation 1,  versus the number of samples, N. Increasing N leads to a closer approximation of the expected values. In orange is highlighted the Microscopy Working Region (Microscopy WR) which corresponds to the number of samples we are able to reach with microscopy experiments. In yellow the region we would have to reach to lower the estimating error, which is although very expensive in terms of analysis time.

      (8) It would be helpful to show flow cytometry plots including the identified subpopulations for all cell lines, currently, they are shown only for HCT116 cells. More generally, very little raw data is shown.

      We will provide the requested plots for the other cell lines together with additional raw data coming from simulations in the Supplementary Material. 

      (9) The title of the manuscript could be tailored more to the considered problem. At the moment it is very generic.

      We see the Reviewer point. The proposed title aims at conveying the wide applicability of the presented approach, which ultimately allows for the assessment of the levels of fluctuations in the levels of the cellular components at division. This in turn reflects the asymmetricity in the division.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This work provides a new dataset of 71,688 images of different ape species across a variety of environmental and behavioral conditions, along with pose annotations per image. The authors demonstrate the value of their dataset by training pose estimation networks (HRNet-W48) on both their own dataset and other primate datasets (OpenMonkeyPose for monkeys, COCO for humans), ultimately showing that the model trained on their dataset had the best performance (performance measured by PCK and AUC). In addition to their ablation studies where they train pose estimation models with either specific species removed or a certain percentage of the images removed, they provide solid evidence that their large, specialized dataset is uniquely positioned to aid in the task of pose estimation for ape species.

      The diversity and size of the dataset make it particularly useful, as it covers a wide range of ape species and poses, making it particularly suitable for training off-the-shelf pose estimation networks or for contributing to the training of a large foundational pose estimation model. In conjunction with new tools focused on extracting behavioral dynamics from pose, this dataset can be especially useful in understanding the basis of ape behaviors using pose.

      We thank the reviewer for the kind comments.

      Since the dataset provided is the first large, public dataset of its kind exclusively for ape species, more details should be provided on how the data were annotated, as well as summaries of the dataset statistics. In addition, the authors should provide the full list of hyperparameters for each model that was used for evaluation (e.g., mmpose config files, textual descriptions of augmentation/optimization parameters).

      We have added more details on the annotation process and have included the list of instructions sent to the annotators. We have also included mmpose configs with the code provided. The following files include the relevant details:

      File including the list of instructions sent to the annotators: OpenMonkeyWild Photograph Rubric.pdf

      Mmpose configs:

      i) TopDownOAPDataset.py

      ii) animal_oap_dataset.py

      iii) init.py

      iv) hrnet_w48_oap_256x192_full.py

      Anaconda environment files:

      i) OpenApePose.yml

      ii) requirements.txt

      Overall this work is a terrific contribution to the field and is likely to have a significant impact on both computer vision and animal behavior.

      Strengths:

      • Open source dataset with excellent annotations on the format, as well as example code provided for working with it.

      • Properties of the dataset are mostly well described.

      • Comparison to pose estimation models trained on humans vs monkeys, finding that models trained on human data generalized better to apes than the ones trained on monkeys, in accordance with phylogenetic similarity. This provides evidence for an important consideration in the field: how well can we expect pose estimation models to generalize to new species when using data from closely or distantly related ones? - Sample efficiency experiments reflect an important property of pose estimation systems, which indicates how much data would be necessary to generate similar datasets in other species, as well as how much data may be required for fine-tuning these types of models (also characterized via ablation experiments where some species are left out).

      • The sample efficiency experiments also reveal important insights about scaling properties of different model architectures, finding that HRNet saturates in performance improvements as a function of dataset size sooner than other architectures like CPMs (even though HRNets still perform better overall).

      We thank the reviewer for the kind comments.

      Weaknesses:

      • More details on training hyperparameters used (preferably full config if trained via mmpose).

      We have now included mmpose configs and anaconda environment files that allow researchers to use the dataset with specific versions of mmpose and other packages we trained our models with. The list of files is provided above.

      • Should include dataset datasheet, as described in Gebru et al 2021 (arXiv:1803.09010).

      We have included a datasheet for our dataset in the appendix lines 621-764.

      • Should include crowdsourced annotation datasheet, as described in Diaz et al 2022 (arXiv:2206.08931). Alternatively, the specific instructions that were provided to Hive/annotators would be highly relevant to convey what annotation protocols were employed here.

      We have included the list of instructions sent to the Hive annotators in the supplementary materials. File: OpenMonkeyWild Photograph Rubric.pdf

      • Should include model cards, as described in Mitchell et al (arXiv:1810.03993).

      We have included a model card for the included model in the results section line 359. See Author response image 1.

      Author response image 1.

      • It would be useful to include more information on the source of the data as they are collected from many different sites and from many different individuals, some of which may introduce structural biases such as lighting conditions due to geography and time of year.

      We agree that the source could introduce structural biases. This is why we included images from so many different sources and captured images at different times from the same source—in hopes that a large variety of background and lighting conditions are represented. However, doing so limits our ability to document each source background and lighting condition separately.

      • Is there a reason not to use OKS? This incorporates several factors such as landmark visibility, scale, and landmark type-specific annotation variability as in Ronchi & Perona 2017 (arXiv:1707.05388). The latter (variability) could use the human pose values (for landmarks types that are shared), the least variable keypoint class in humans (eyes) as a conservative estimate of accuracy, or leverage a unique aspect of this work (crowdsourced annotations) which affords the ability to estimate these values empirically.

      The focus of this work is on overall keypoint localization accuracy and hence we wanted a metric that is easy to interpret and implement, in this case we made use of PCK (Percentage of Correct Keypoints). PCK is a simple and widely used metric that measures the percentage of correctly localized keypoints within a certain distance threshold from their corresponding groundtruth keypoints.

      • A reporting of the scales present in the dataset would be useful (e.g., histogram of unnormalized bounding boxes) and would align well with existing pose dataset papers such as MS-COCO (arXiv:1405.0312) which reports the distribution of instance sizes and instance density per image.

      RESPONSE: We have now included a histogram of unnormalized bounding boxes in the manuscript, Author response image 2.

      Author response image 2.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The authors present the OpenApePose database constituting a collection of over 70000 ape images which will be important for many applications within primatology and the behavioural sciences. The authors have also rigorously tested the utility of this database in comparison to available Pose image databases for monkeys and humans to clearly demonstrate its solid potential.

      We thank the reviewer for the kind comments.

      However, the variation in the database with regards to individuals, background, source/setting is not clearly articulated and would be beneficial information for those wishing to make use of this resource in the future. At present, there is also a lack of clarity as to how this image database can be extrapolated to aid video data analyses which would be highly beneficial as well.

      I have two major concerns with regard to the manuscript as it currently stands which I think if addressed would aid the clarity and utility of this database for readers.

      1) Human annotators are mentioned as doing the 16 landmarks manually for all images but there is no assessment of inter-observer reliability or the such. I think something to this end is currently missing, along with how many annotators there were. This will be essential for others to know who may want to use this database in the future.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. Inter-observer reliability is important for ensuring the quality of the annotations. We first used Amazon MTurk to crowd source annotations and found that the inter-observer reliability and the annotation quality was poor. This was the reason for choosing a commercial service such as Hive AI. As the crowd sourcing and quality control are managed by Hive through their internal procedures, we do not have access to data that can allow us to assess inter-observer reliability. However, the annotation quality was assessed by first author ND through manual inspections of the annotations visualized on all of the images the database. Additionally, our ablation experiments with high out of sample performances further vaildate the quality of the annotations.

      Relevant to this comment, in your description of the database, a table or such could be included, providing the number of images from each source/setting per species and/or number of individuals. Something to give a brief overview of the variation beyond species. (subspecies would also be of benefit for example).

      Our goal was to obtain as many images as possible from the most commonly studied ape species. In order to ensure a large enough database, we focused only on the species and combined images from as many sources as possible to reach our goal of ~10,000 images per species. With the wide range of people involved in obtaining the images, we could not ensure that all the photographers had the necessary expertise to differentiate individuals and subspecies of the subjects they were photographing. We could only ensure that the right species was being photographed. Hence, we cannot include more detailed information.

      2) You mention around line 195 that you used a specific function for splitting up the dataset into training, validation, and test but there is no information given as to whether this was simply random or if an attempt to balance across species, individuals, background/source was made. I would actually think that a balanced approach would be more appropriate/useful here so whether or not this was done, and the reasoning behind that must be justified.

      This is especially relevant given that in one test you report balancing across species (for the sample size subsampling procedure).

      We created the training set to reflect the species composition of the whole dataset, but used test sets balanced by species. This was done to give a sense of the performance of a model that could be trained with the entire dataset, that does not have the species fully balanced. We believe that researchers interested in training models using this dataset for behavior tracking applications would use the entire dataset to fully leverage the variation in the dataset. However, for those interested in training models with balanced species, we provide an annotation file with all the images included, which would allow researchers to create their own training and test sets that meet their specific needs. We have added this justification in the manuscript to guide the other users with different needs. Lines 530-534: “We did not balance our training set for the species as we wanted to utilize the full variation in the dataset and assess models trained with the proportion of species as reflected in the dataset. We provide annotations including the entire dataset to allow others to make create their own training/validation/test sets that suit their needs.”

      And another perhaps major concern that I think should also be addressed somewhere is the fact that this is an image database tested on images while the abstract and manuscript mention the importance of pose estimation for video datasets, yet the current manuscript does not provide any clear test of video datasets nor engage with the practicalities associated with using this image-based database for applications to video datasets. Somewhere this needs to be added to clarify its practical utility.

      We thank the reviewer for this important suggestion. Since we can separate a video into its constituent frames, one can indeed use the provided model or other models trained using this dataset for inference on the frames, thus allowing video tracking applications. We now include a short video clip of a chimpanzee with inferences from the provided model visualized in the supplementary materials.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      • Please provide a more thorough description of the annotation procedure (i.e., the instructions given to crowd workers)! See public review for reference on dataset annotation reporting cards.

      We have included the list of instructions for Hive annotators in the supplementary materials.

      • An estimate of the crowd worker accuracy and variability would be super valuable!

      While we agree that this is useful, we do not have access to Hive internal data on crowd worker IDs that could allow us to estimate these metrics. Furthermore, we assessed each image manually to ensure good annotation quality.

      • In the methods section it is reported that images were discarded because they were either too blurry, small, or highly occluded. Further quantification could be provided. How many images were discarded per species?

      It’s not really clear to us why this is interesting or important. We used a large number of photographers and annotators, some of whom gave a high ratio of great images; some of whom gave a poor ratio. But it’s not clear what those ratios tell us.

      • Placing the numerical values at the end of the bars would make the graphs more readable in Figures 4 and 5.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. While we agree that this can help, we do not have space to include the number in a font size that would be readable. Smaller font sizes that are likely to fit may not be readable for all readers. We have included the numerical values in the main text in the results section for those interested and hope that the figures provide a qualitative sense of the results to the readers.

    1. Author response:

      eLife Assessment

      This valuable short paper is an ingenious use of clinical patient data to address an issue in imaging neuroscience. The authors clarify the role of face-selectivity in human fusiform gyrus by measuring both BOLD fMRI and depth electrode recordings in the same individuals; furthermore, by comparing responses in different brain regions in the two patients, they suggested that the suppression of blood oxygenation is associated with a decrease in local neural activity. While the methods are compelling and provide a rare dataset of potentially general importance, the presentation of the data in its current form is incomplete.

      We thank the Reviewing editor and Senior editor at eLife for their positive assessment of our paper. After reading the reviewers’ comments – to which we reply below - we agree that the presentation of the data could be completed. We provide additional presentation of data in the responses below and we will slightly modify Figure 2 of the paper. However, in keeping the short format of the paper, the revised version will have the same number of figures, which support the claims made in the paper.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Measurement of BOLD MR imaging has regularly found regions of the brain that show reliable suppression of BOLD responses during specific experimental testing conditions. These observations are to some degree unexplained, in comparison with more usual association between activation of the BOLD response and excitatory activation of the neurons (most tightly linked to synaptic activity) in the same brain location. This paper finds two patients whose brains were tested with both non-invasive functional MRI and with invasive insertion of electrodes, which allowed the direct recording of neuronal activity. The electrode insertions were made within the fusiform gyrus, which is known to process information about faces, in a clinical search for the sites of intractable epilepsy in each patient. The simple observation is that the electrode location in one patient showed activation of the BOLD response and activation of neuronal firing in response to face stimuli. This is the classical association. The other patient showed an informative and different pattern of responses. In this person, the electrode location showed a suppression of the BOLD response to face stimuli and, most interestingly, an associated suppression of neuronal activity at the electrode site.

      Strengths:

      Whilst these results are not by themselves definitive, they add an important piece of evidence to a long-standing discussion about the origins of the BOLD response. The observation of decreased neuronal activation associated with negative BOLD is interesting because, at various times, exactly the opposite association has been predicted. It has been previously argued that if synaptic mechanisms of neuronal inhibition are responsible for the suppression of neuronal firing, then it would be reasonable

      Weaknesses:

      The chief weakness of the paper is that the results may be unique in a slightly awkward way. The observation of positive BOLD and neuronal activation is made at one brain site in one patient, while the complementary observation of negative BOLD and neuronal suppression actually derives from the other patient. Showing both effects in both patients would make a much stronger paper.

      We thank reviewer #1 for their positive evaluation of our paper. Obviously, we agree with the reviewer that the paper would be much stronger if BOTH effects – spike increase and decrease – would be found in BOTH patients in their corresponding fMRI regions (lateral and medial fusiform gyrus) (also in the same hemisphere). Nevertheless, we clearly acknowledge this limitation in the (revised) version of the manuscript (p.8: Material and Methods section).

      In the current paper, one could think that P1 shows only increases to faces, and P2 would show only decreases (irrespective of the region). However, that is not the case since 11% of P1’s face-selective units are decreases (89% are increases) and 4% of P2’s face-selective units are increases. This has now been made clearer in the manuscript (p.5).

      As the reviewer is certainly aware, the number and position of the electrodes are based on strict clinical criteria, and we will probably never encounter a situation with two neighboring (macro-micro hybrid electrodes), one with microelectrodes ending up in the lateral MidFG, the other in the medial MidFG, in the same patient. If there is no clinical value for the patient, this cannot be done.

      The only thing we can do is to strengthen these results in the future by collecting data on additional patients with an electrode either in the lateral or the medial FG, together with fMRI. But these are the only two patients we have been able to record so far with electrodes falling unambiguously in such contrasted regions and with large (and comparable) measures.

      While we acknowledge that the results may be unique because of the use of 2 contrasted patients only (and this is why the paper is a short report), the data is compelling in these 2 cases, and we are confident that it will be replicated in larger cohorts in the future.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This is a short and straightforward paper describing BOLD fMRI and depth electrode measurements from two regions of the fusiform gyrus that show either higher or lower BOLD responses to faces vs. objects (which I will call face-positive and facenegative regions). In these regions, which were studied separately in two patients undergoing epilepsy surgery, spiking activity increased for faces relative to objects in the face-positive region and decreased for faces relative to objects in the face-negative region. Interestingly, about 30% of neurons in the face-negative region did not respond to objects and decreased their responses below baseline in response to faces (absolute suppression).

      Strengths:

      These patient data are valuable, with many recording sessions and neurons from human face-selective regions, and the methods used for comparing face and object responses in both fMRI and electrode recordings were robust and well-established. The finding of absolute suppression could clarify the nature of face selectivity in human fusiform gyrus since previous fMRI studies of the face-negative region could not distinguish whether face < object responses came from absolute suppression, or just relatively lower but still positive responses to faces vs. objects.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors claim that the results tell us about both 1) face-selectivity in the fusiform gyrus, and 2) the physiological basis of the BOLD signal. However, I would like to see more of the data that supports the first claim, and I am not sure the second claim is supported.

      (1) The authors report that ~30% of neurons showed absolute suppression, but those data are not shown separately from the neurons that only show relative reductions. It is difficult to evaluate the absolute suppression claim from the short assertion in the text alone (lines 105-106), although this is a critical claim in the paper.

      We thank reviewer #2 for their positive evaluation of our paper. We understand the reviewer’s point, and we partly agree. Where we respectfully disagree is that the finding of absolute suppression is critical for the claim of the paper: finding an identical contrast between the two regions in terms of RELATIVE increase/decrease of face-selective activity in fMRI and spiking activity is already novel and informative. Where we agree with the reviewer is that the absolute suppression could be more documented: it wasn’t, due to space constraints (brief report). We provide below an example of a neuron showing absolute suppression to faces. In the frequency domain, there is only a face-selective response (1.2 Hz and harmonics) but no significant response at 6 Hz (common general visual response). In the time-domain, relative to face onset, the response drops below baseline level. It means that this neuron has baseline (non-periodic) spontaneous spiking activity that is actively suppressed when a face appears.

      Author response image 1.

      (2) I am not sure how much light the results shed on the physiological basis of the BOLD signal. The authors write that the results reveal "that BOLD decreases can be due to relative, but also absolute, spike suppression in the human brain" (line 120). But I think to make this claim, you would need a region that exclusively had neurons showing absolute suppression, not a region with a mix of neurons, some showing absolute suppression and some showing relative suppression, as here. The responses of both groups of neurons contribute to the measured BOLD signal, so it seems impossible to tell from these data how absolute suppression per se drives the BOLD response.

      It is a fact that we find both kinds of responses in the same region.  We cannot tell with this technique if neurons showing relative vs. absolute suppression of responses are spatially segregated for instance (e.g., forming two separate sub-regions) or are intermingled. And we cannot tell from our data how absolute suppression per se drives the BOLD response. In our view, this does not diminish the interest and originality of the study, but the statement "that BOLD decreases can be due to relative, but also absolute, spike suppression in the human brain” will be rephrased in the revised manuscript, in the following way: "that BOLD decreases can be due to relative, or absolute (or a combination of both), spike suppression in the human brain”.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      In this paper the authors conduct two experiments an fMRI experiment and intracranial recordings of neurons in two patients P1 and P2. In both experiments, they employ a SSVEP paradigm in which they show images at a fast rate (e.g. 6Hz) and then they show face images at a slower rate (e.g. 1.2Hz), where the rest of the images are a variety of object images. In the first patient, they record from neurons over a region in the mid fusiform gyrus that is face-selective and in the second patient, they record neurons from a region more medially that is not face selective (it responds more strongly to objects than faces). Results find similar selectivity between the electrophysiology data and the fMRI data in that the location which shows higher fMRI to faces also finds face-selective neurons and the location which finds preference to non faces also shows non face preferring neurons.

      Strengths:

      The data is important in that it shows that there is a relationship between category selectivity measured from electrophysiology data and category-selective from fMRI. The data is unique as it contains a lot of single and multiunit recordings (245 units) from the human fusiform gyrus - which the authors point out - is a humanoid specific gyrus.

      Weaknesses:

      My major concerns are two-fold:

      (i) There is a paucity of data; Thus, more information (results and methods) is warranted; and in particular there is no comparison between the fMRI data and the SEEG data.

      We thank reviewer #3 for their positive evaluation of our paper. If the reviewer means paucity of data presentation, we agree and we provide more presentation below, although the methods and results information appear as complete to us. The comparison between fMRI and SEEG is there, but can only be indirect (i.e., collected at different times and not related on a trial-by-trial basis for instance). In addition, our manuscript aims at providing a short empirical contribution to further our understanding of the relationship between neural responses and BOLD signal, not to provide a model of neurovascular coupling.

      (ii) One main claim of the paper is that there is evidence for suppressed responses to faces in the non-face selective region. That is, the reduction in activation to faces in the non-face selective region is interpreted as a suppression in the neural response and consequently the reduction in fMRI signal is interpreted as suppression. However, the SSVEP paradigm has no baseline (it alternates between faces and objects) and therefore it cannot distinguish between lower firing rate to faces vs suppression of response to faces.

      We understand the concern of the reviewer, but we respectfully disagree that our paradigm cannot distinguish between lower firing rate to faces vs. suppression of response to faces. Indeed, since the stimuli are presented periodically (6 Hz), we can objectively distinguish stimulus-related activity from spontaneous neuronal firing. The baseline corresponds to spikes that are non-periodic, i.e., unrelated to the (common face and object) stimulation. For a subset of neurons, even this non-periodic baseline activity is suppressed, above and beyond the suppression of the 6 Hz response illustrated on Figure 2. We mention it in the manuscript, but we agree that we do not present illustrations of such decrease in the time-domain for SU, which we did not consider as being necessary initially (please see below for such presentation).

      (1) Additional data: the paper has 2 figures: figure 1 which shows the experimental design and figure 2 which presents data, the latter shows one example neuron raster plot from each patient and group average neural data from each patient. In this reader's opinion this is insufficient data to support the conclusions of the paper. The paper will be more impactful if the researchers would report the data more comprehensively.

      We answer to more specific requests for additional evidence below, but the reviewer should be aware that this is a short report, which reaches the word limit. In our view, the group average neural data should be sufficient to support the conclusions, and the example neurons are there for illustration. And while we cannot provide the raster plots for a large number of neurons, the anonymized data will be made available upon publication of the final version of the paper.

      (a) There is no direct comparison between the fMRI data and the SEEG data, except for a comparison of the location of the electrodes relative to the statistical parametric map generated from a contrast (Fig 2a,d). It will be helpful to build a model linking between the neural responses to the voxel response in the same location - i.e., estimate from the electrophysiology data the fMRI data (e.g., Logothetis & Wandell, 2004).

      As mentioned above the comparison between fMRI and SEEG is indirect (i.e., collected at different times and not related on a trial-by-trial basis for instance) and would not allow to make such a model.

      (b) More comprehensive analyses of the SSVEP neural data: It will be helpful to show the results of the frequency analyses of the SSVEP data for all neurons to show that there are significant visual responses and significant face responses. It will be also useful to compare and quantify the magnitude of the face responses compared to the visual responses.

      The data has been analyzed comprehensively, but we would not be able to show all neurons with such significant visual responses and face-selective responses.

      (c) The neuron shown in E shows cyclical responses tied to the onset of the stimuli, is this the visual response?

      Correct, it’s the visual response at 6 Hz.

      If so, why is there an increase in the firing rate of the neuron before the face stimulus is shown in time 0?

      Because the stimulation is continuous. What is displayed at 0 is the onset of the face stimulus, with each face stimulus being preceded by 4 images of nonface objects.

      The neuron's data seems different than the average response across neurons; This raises a concern about interpreting the average response across neurons in panel F which seems different than the single neuron responses

      The reviewer is correct, and we apologize for the confusion. This is because the average data on panel F has been notch-filtered for the 6 Hz (and harmonic responses), as indicated in the methods (p.11):  ‘a FFT notch filter (filter width = 0.05 Hz) was then applied on the 70 s single or multi-units time-series to remove the general visual response at 6 Hz and two additional harmonics (i.e., 12 and 18 Hz)’.

      Here is the same data without the notch-filter (the 6Hz periodic response is clearly visible):

      Author response image 2.

      For sake of clarity, we prefer presenting the notch-filtered data in the paper, but the revised version will make it clear in the figure caption that the average data has been notch-filtered.

      (d) Related to (c) it would be useful to show raster plots of all neurons and quantify if the neural responses within a region are homogeneous or heterogeneous. This would add data relating the single neuron response to the population responses measured from fMRI. See also Nir 2009.

      We agree with the reviewer that this is interesting, but again we do not think that it is necessary for the point made in the present paper. Responses in these regions appear rather heterogenous, and we are currently working on a longer paper with additional SEEG data (other patients tested for shorter sessions) to define and quantify the face-selective neurons in the MidFusiform gyrus with this approach (without relating it to the fMRI contrast as reported here).

      (e) When reporting group average data (e.g., Fig 2C,F) it is necessary to show standard deviation of the response across neurons.

      We agree with the reviewer and have modified Figure 2 accordingly in the revised manuscript.

      (f) Is it possible to estimate the latency of the neural responses to face and object images from the phase data? If so, this will add important information on the timing of neural responses in the human fusiform gyrus to face and object images.

      The fast periodic paradigm to measure neural face-selectivity has been used in tens of studies since its original reports:

      - in EEG: Rossion et al., 2015: https://doi.org/10.1167/15.1.18

      - in SEEG: Jonas et al., 2016: https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1522033113

      In this paradigm, the face-selective response spreads to several harmonics (1.2 Hz, 2.4 Hz, 3.6 Hz, etc.) (which are summed for quantifying the total face-selective amplitude). This is illustrated below by the averaged single units’ SNR spectra across all recording sessions for both participants.

      Author response image 3.

      There is no unique phase-value, each harmonic being associated with a phase-value, so that the timing cannot be unambiguously extracted from phase values. Instead, the onset latency is computed directly from the time-domain responses, which is more straightforward and reliable than using the phase. Note that the present paper is not about the specific time-courses of the different types of neurons, which would require a more comprehensive report, but which is not necessary to support the point made in the present paper about the SEEG-fMRI sign relationship.

      g) Related to (e) In total the authors recorded data from 245 units (some single units and some multiunits) and they found that both in the face and nonface selective most of the recoded neurons exhibited face -selectivity, which this reader found confusing: They write “ Among all visually responsive neurons, we found a very high proportion of face-selective neurons (p < 0.05) in both activated and deactivated MidFG regions (P1: 98.1%; N = 51/52; P2: 86.6%; N = 110/127)’. Is the face selectivity in P1 an increase in response to faces and P2 a reduction in response to faces or in both it’s an increase in response to faces

      Face-selectivity is defined as a DIFFERENTIAL response to faces compared to objects, not necessarily a larger response to faces. So yes, face-selectivity in P1 is an increase in response to faces and P2 a reduction in response to faces.

      (1) Additional methods

      (a) it is unclear if the SSVEP analyses of neural responses were done on the spikes or the raw electrical signal. If the former, how is the SSVEP frequency analysis done on discrete data like action potentials?

      The FFT is applied directly on spike trains using Matlab’s discrete Fourier Transform function. This function is suitable to be applied to spike trains in the same way as to any sampled digital signal (here, the microwires signal was sampled at 30 kHz, see Methods).

      In complementary analyses, we also attempted to apply the FFT on spike trains that had been temporally smoothed by convolving them with a 20ms square window (Le Cam et al., 2023, cited in the paper ). This did not change the outcome of the frequency analyses in the frequency range we are interested in.

      (b) it is unclear why the onset time was shifted by 33ms; one can measure the phase of the response relative to the cycle onset and use that to estimate the delay between the onset of a stimulus and the onset of the response. Adding phase information will be useful.

      The onset time was shifted by 33ms because the stimuli are presented with a sinewave contrast modulation (i.e., at 0ms, the stimulus has 0% contrast). 100% contrast is reached at half a stimulation cycle, which is 83.33ms here, but a response is likely triggered before reaching 100% contrast. To estimate the delay between the start of the sinewave (0% contrast) and the triggering of a neural response, we tested 7 SEEG participants with the same images presented in FPVS sequences either as a sinewave contrast (black line) modulation or as a squarewave (i.e. abrupt) contrast modulation (red line).  The 33ms value is based on these LFP data obtained in response to such sinewave stimulation and squarewave stimulation of the same paradigm. This delay corresponds to 4 screen refresh frames (120 Hz refresh rate = 8.33ms by frame) and 35% of the full contrast, as illustrated below (please see also Retter, T. L., & Rossion, B. (2016). Uncovering the neural magnitude and spatio-temporal dynamics of natural image categorization in a fast visual stream. Neuropsychologia, 91, 9–28).

      Author response image 4.

      (2) Interpretation of suppression:

      The SSVEP paradigm alternates between 2 conditions: faces and objects and has no baseline; In other words, responses to faces are measured relative to the baseline response to objects so that any region that contains neurons that have a lower firing rate to faces than objects is bound to show a lower response in the SSVEP signal. Therefore, because the experiment does not have a true baseline (e.g. blank screen, with no visual stimulation) this experimental design cannot distinguish between lower firing rate to faces vs suppression of response to faces.

      The strongest evidence put forward for suppression is the response of non-visual neurons that was also reduced when patients looked at faces, but since these are non-visual neurons, it is unclear how to interpret the responses to faces.

      We understand this point, but how does the reviewer know that these are non-visual neurons? Because these neurons are located in the visual cortex, they are likely to be visual neurons that are not responsive to non-face objects. In any case, as the reviewer writes, we think it’s strong evidence for suppression.

      We thank all three reviewers for their positive evaluation of our paper and their constructive comments.

    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper concerns mechanisms of foraging behavior in C. elegans. Upon removal from food, C. elegans first executes a stereotypical local search behavior in which it explores a small area by executing many random, undirected reversals and turns called "reorientations." If the worm fails to find food, it transitions to a global search in which it explores larger areas by suppressing reorientations and executing long forward runs (Hills et al., 2004). At the population level, the reorientation rate declines gradually. Nevertheless, about 50% of individual worms appear to exhibit an abrupt transition between local and global search, which is evident as a discrete transition from high to low reorientation rate (Lopez-Cruz et al., 2019). This observation has given rise to the hypothesis that local and global search correspond to separate internal states with the possibility of sudden transitions between them (Calhoun et al., 2014). The main conclusion of the paper is that it is not necessary to posit distinct internal states to account for discrete transitions from high to low reorientation rates. On the contrary, discrete transitions can occur simply because of the stochastic nature of the reorientation behavior itself.

      Strengths:

      The strength of the paper is the demonstration that a more parsimonious model explains abrupt transitions in the reorientation rate.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Use of the Gillespie algorithm is not well justified. A conventional model with a fixed dt and an exponentially decaying reorientation rate would be adequate and far easier to explain. It would also be sufficiently accurate - given the appropriate choice of dt - to support the main claims of the paper, which are merely qualitative. In some respects, the whole point of the paper - that discrete transitions are an epiphenomenon of stochastic behavior - can be made with the authors' version of the model having a constant reorientation rate (Figure 2f).

      We apologize, but we are not sure what the reviewer means by “fixed dt”. If the reviewer means taking discrete steps in time (dt), and modeling whether a reorientation occurs, we would argue that the Gillespie algorithm is a better way to do this because it provides floating-point precision time resolution, rather than a time resolution limited by dt, which we hopefully explain in the comments below.

      The reviewer is correct that discrete transitions are an epiphenomenon of stochastic behavior as we show in Figure 2f. However, abrupt stochastic jumps that occur with a constant rate do not produce persistent changes in the observed rate because it is by definition, constant. The theory that there are local and global searches is based on the observation that individual worms often abruptly change their rates. But this observation is only true for a fraction of worms. We are trying to argue that the reason why this is not observed for all, or even most worms is because these are the result of stochastic sampling, not a sudden change in search strategy.

      (2) In the manuscript, the Gillespie algorithm is very poorly explained, even for readers who already understand the algorithm; for those who do not it will be essentially impossible to comprehend. To take just a few examples: in Equation (1), omega is defined as reorientations instead of cumulative reorientations; it is unclear how (4) follows from (2) and (3); notation in (5), line 133, and (7) is idiosyncratic. Figure 1a does not help, partly because the notation is unexplained. For example, what do the arrows mean, what does "*" mean?

      We apologize for this, you are correct,  is cumulative reorientations, and we will edit the text as follows:

      Experimentally, reorientation rate is measured as the number of reorientation events that occurred in an observational window. However, these are discrete stochastic events, so we should describe them in terms of propensity, i.e. the probability of observing a transitional event (in this case, a reorientation) is:

      Here, P(W+1,t) is the probability of observing a reorientation event at time t, and a<sub>1</sub> is the propensity for this event to occur. Observationally, the frequency of reorientations observed decays over time, so we can define the propensity as:

      Where α is the initial propensity at t=0.

      We can model this decay as the reorientation propensity coupled to a decaying factor (M):

      Where the propensity of this event (a<sub>2</sub>) is:

      Since M is a first-order decay process, when integrated, the cumulative M observed is:

      We can couple the probability of observing a reorientation to this decay by redefining (a<sub>1</sub> as:

      So that now:

      A critical detail should be noted. While reorientations are modeled as discrete events, the amount of M at time t\=0 is chosen to be large (M<sub>0</sub>←1,000), so that over the timescale of 40 minutes, the decay in M is practically continuous. This ensures that sudden changes in reorientations are not due to sudden changes in M, but due to the inherent stochasticity of reorientations.

      To model both processes, we can create the master equation:

      Since these are both Poisson processes, the probability density function for a state change i occurring in time t is:

      The probability that an event will not occur in time interval t is:

      The probability that no events will occur for ALL transitions in this time interval is:

      We can draw a random number (r<sub>1</sub> ∈[0,1]) that represents the probability of no events in time interval t, so that this time interval can be assigned by rearranging equation 11:

      where:

      This is the time interval for any event (W+1 or M-1) happening at t + t. The probability of which event occurs is proportional to its propensity:

      We can draw a second number (r<sub>2</sub> ∈[0,1]) that represents this probability so that which event occurs at time t + t is determined by the smallest n that satisfies:

      so that:

      The elegant efficiency of the Gillespie algorithm is two-fold. First, it models all transitions simultaneously, not separately. Second, it provides floating-point time resolution. Rather than drawing a random number, and using a cumulative probability distribution of interval-times to decide whether an event occurs at discrete steps in time, the Gillespie algorithm uses this distribution to draw the interval-time itself. The time resolution of the prior approach is limited by step size, whereas the Gillespie algorithm’s time resolution is limited by the floating-point precision of the random number that is drawn.

      We are happy to add this text to improve clarity.

      We apologize for the arrow notation confusion. Arrow notation is commonly used in pseudocode to indicate variable assignment, and so we used it to indicate variable assignment updates in the algorithm.

      We added Figure 2a to help explain the Gillespie algorithm for people who are unfamiliar with it, but you are correct, some notation, like probabilities, were left unexplained. We will address this to improve clarity.

      (3) In the model, the reorientation rate dΩ⁄dt declines to zero but the empirical rate clearly does not. This is a major flaw. It would have been easy to fix by adding a constant to the exponentially declining rate in (1). Perhaps fixing this obvious problem would mitigate the discrepancies between the data and the model in Figure 2d.

      You are correct that the model deviates slightly at longer times, but this result is consistent with Klein et al. that show a continuous decline of reorientations. However, we could add a constant to the model, since an infinite run length is likely not physiological.

      (4) Evidence that the model fits the data (Figure 2d) is unconvincing. I would like to have seen the proportion of runs in which the model generated one as opposed to multiple or no transitions in reorientation rate; in the real data, the proportion is 50% (Lopez). It is claimed that the "model demonstrated a continuum of switching to non-switching behavior" as seen in the experimental data but no evidence is provided.

      We should clarify that the 50% proportion cited by López-Cruz was based on an arbitrary difference in slopes, and by assessing the data visually. We sought to avoid this subjective assessment by plotting the distribution of slopes and transition times produced by the method used in López-Cruz. We should also clarify by what we meant by “a continuum of switching and non-switching” behavior. Both the transition time distributions and the slope-difference distributions do not appear to be the result of two distributions. This is unlike roaming and dwelling on food, where two distinct distributions of behavioral metrics can be identified based on speed and angular speed (Flavell et al, 2009, Fig S2a). We will add a permutation test to verify the mean differences in slopes and transition times between the experiment and model are not significant.

      (5) The explanation for the poor fit between the model and data (lines 166-174) is unclear. Why would externally triggered collisions cause a shift in the transition distribution?

      Thank you, we should rewrite the text to clarify this better. There were no externally triggered collisions; 10 animals were used per experiment. They would occasionally collide during the experiment, but these collisions were excluded from the data that were provided. However, worms are also known to increase reorientations when they encounter a pheromone trail, and it is unknown (from this dataset) which orientations may have been a result of this phenomenon.

      (6) The discussion of Levy walks and the accompanying figure are off-topic and should be deleted.

      Thank you, we agree that this topic is tangential, and we will remove it.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors build a statistical model that stochastically samples from a time-interval distribution of reorientation rates. The form of the distribution is extracted from a large array of behavioral data, and is then used to describe not only the dynamics of individual worms (including the inter-individual variability in behavior), but also the aggregate population behavior. The authors note that the model does not require assumptions about behavioral state transitions, or evidence accumulation, as has been done previously, but rather that the stochastic nature of behavior is "simply the product of stochastic sampling from an exponential function".

      Strengths:

      This model provides a strong juxtaposition to other foraging models in the worm. Rather than evoking a behavioral transition function (that might arise from a change in internal state or the activity of a cell type in the network), or evidence accumulation (which again maps onto a cell type, or the activity of a network) - this model explains behavior via the stochastic sampling of a function of an exponential decay. The underlying model and the dynamics being simulated, as well as the process of stochastic sampling, are well described and the model fits the exponential function (Equation 1) to data on a large array of worms exhibiting diverse behaviors (1600+ worms from Lopez-Cruz et al). The work of this study is able to explain or describe the inter-individual diversity of worm behavior across a large population. The model is also able to capture two aspects of the reorientations, including the dynamics (to switch or not to switch) and the kinetics (slow vs fast reorientations). The authors also work to compare their model to a few others including the Levy walk (whose construction arises from a Markov process) to a simple exponential distribution, all of which have been used to study foraging and search behaviors.

      Weaknesses:

      This manuscript has two weaknesses that dampen the enthusiasm for the results. First, in all of the examples the authors cite where a Gillespie algorithm is used to sample from a distribution, be it the kinetics associated with chemical dynamics, or a Lotka-Volterra Competition Model, there are underlying processes that govern the evolution of the dynamics, and thus the sampling from distributions. In one of their references, for instance, the stochasticity arises from the birth and death rates, thereby influencing the genetic drift in the model. In these examples, the process governing the dynamics (and thus generating the distributions from which one samples) is distinct from the behavior being studied. In this manuscript, the distribution being sampled is the exponential decay function of the reorientation rate (lines 100-102). This appears to be tautological - a decay function fitted to the reorientation data is then sampled to generate the distributions of the reorientation data. That the model performs well and matches the data is commendable, but it is unclear how that could not be the case if the underlying function generating the distribution was fit to the data.

      Thank you, we apologize that this was not clearer. In the Lotka-Volterra model, the density of predators and prey are being modeled, with the underlying assumption that rates of birth and death are inherently stochastic. In our model, the number of reorientations are being modeled, with the assumption (based on the experiments), that the occurrence of reorientations is stochastic, just like the occurrence (birth) of a prey animal is stochastic. However, the decay in M is phenomenological, and we speculate about the nature of M later in the manuscript.

      You are absolutely right that the decay function for M was fitted to the population average of reorientations and then sampled to generate the distributions of the reorientation data. This was intentional to show that the parameters chosen to match the population average would produce individual trajectories with comparable stochastic “switching” as the experimental data. All we’re trying to show really is that observed sudden changes in reorientation that appear persistent can be produced by a stochastic process without resorting to binary state assignments. In Calhoun, et al 2014 it is reported all animals produced switch-like behavior, but in Klein et al, 2017 it is reported that no animals showed abrupt transitions. López-Cruz et al seem to show a mix of these results, which can be easily explained by an underlying stochastic process.

      The second weakness is somewhat related to the first, in that absent an underlying mechanism or framework, one is left wondering what insight the model provides. Stochastic sampling a function generated by fitting the data to produce stochastic behavior is where one ends up in this framework, and the authors indeed point this out: "simple stochastic models should be sufficient to explain observably stochastic behaviors." (Line 233-234). But if that is the case, what do we learn about how the foraging is happening? The authors suggest that the decay parameter M can be considered a memory timescale; which offers some suggestion, but then go on to say that the "physical basis of M can come from multiple sources". Here is where one is left for want: The mechanisms suggested, including loss of sensory stimuli, alternations in motor integration, ionotropic glutamate signaling, dopamine, and neuropeptides are all suggested: these are basically all of the possible biological sources that can govern behavior, and one is left not knowing what insight the model provides. The array of biological processes listed is so variable in dynamics and meaning, that their explanation of what governs M is at best unsatisfying. Molecular dynamics models that generate distributions can point to certain properties of the model, such as the binding kinetics (on and off rates, etc.) as explanations for the mechanisms generating the distributions, and therefore point to how a change in the biology affects the stochasticity of the process. It is unclear how this model provides such a connection, especially taken in aggregate with the previous weakness.

      Providing a roadmap of how to think about the processes generating M, the meaning of those processes in search, and potential frameworks that are more constrained and with more precise biological underpinning (beyond the array of possibilities described) would go a long way to assuaging the weaknesses.

      Thank you, these are all excellent points. We should clarify that in López-Cruz et al, they claim that only 50% of the animals fit a local/global search paradigm. We are simply proposing there is no need for designating local and global searches if the data don’t really support it. The underlying behavior is stochastic, so the sudden switches sometimes observed can be explained by a stochastic process where the underlying rate is slowing down, thus producing the persistently slow reorientation rate when an apparent “switch” occurs. What we hope to convey is that foraging doesn’t appear to follow a decision paradigm, but instead a gradual change in reorientations which for individual worms, can occasionally produce reorientation trajectories that appear switch-like.

      As for M, you are correct, we should be more explicit. A decay in reorientation rate, rather than a sudden change, is consistent with observations made by López-Cruz et al.  They found that the neurons AIA and ADE redundantly suppress reorientations, and that silencing either one was sufficient to restore the large number of reorientations during early foraging. The synaptic output of AIA and ADE was inhibited over long timescales (tens of minutes) by presynaptic glutamate binding to MGL-1, a slow G-Protein coupled receptor expressed in AIA and ADE. Their results support a model where sensory neurons suppress the synaptic output of AIA and ADE, which in turn leads to a large number of reorientations early in foraging. As time passes, glutamatergic input from the sensory neurons decrease, which leads to disinhibition of AIA and ADE, and a subsequent suppression of reorientations.

      The sensory inputs into AIA and ADE are sequestered into two separate circuits, with AIA receiving chemosensory input and ADE receiving mechanosensory input. Since the suppression of either AIA or ADE is sufficient to increase reorientations, the decay in reorientations is likely due to the synaptic output of both of these neurons decaying in time. This correlates with an observed decrease in sensory neuron activity as well, so the timescale of reorientation decay could be tied to the timescale of sensory neuron activity, which in turn is influencing the timescale of AIA/ADE reorientation suppression. This implies that our factor “M” is likely the sum of several different sensory inputs decaying in time.

      The molecular basis of which sensory neuron signaling factors contribute to decreased AIA and ADE activity is made more complicated by the observation that the glutamatergic input provided by the sensory neurons was not essential, and that additional factors besides glutamate contribute to the signaling to AIA and ADE. In addition to this, it is simply not the sensory neuron activity that decays in time, but also the sensitivity of AIA and ADE to sensory neuron input that decays in time. Simply depolarizing sensory neurons after the animals had starved for 30 minutes was insufficient to rescue the reorientation rates observed earlier in the foraging assay. This observation could be due to decreased presynaptic vesicle release, and/or decreased receptor localization on the postsynaptic side.

      In summary, there are two neuronal properties that appear to be decaying in time. One is sensory neuron activity, and the other is decreased potentiation of presynaptic input onto AIA and ADE. Our factor “M” is a phenomenological manifestation of these numerous decaying factors.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This intriguing paper addresses a special case of a fundamental statistical question: how to distinguish between stochastic point processes that derive from a single "state" (or single process) and more than one state/process. In the language of the paper, a "state" (perhaps more intuitively called a strategy/process) refers to a set of rules that determine the temporal statistics of the system. The rules give rise to probability distributions (here, the probability for turning events). The difficulty arises when the sampling time is finite, and hence, the empirical data is finite, and affected by the sampling of the underlying distribution(s). The specific problem being tackled is the foraging behavior of C. elegans nematodes, removed from food. Such foraging has been studied for decades, and described by a transition over time from 'local'/'area-restricted' search'(roughly in the initial 10-30 minutes of the experiments, in which animals execute frequent turns) to 'dispersion', or 'global search' (characterized by a low frequency of turns). The authors propose an alternative to this two-state description - a potentially more parsimonious single 'state' with time-changing parameters, which they claim can account for the full-time course of these observations.

      Figure 1a shows the mean rate of turning events as a function of time (averaged across the population). Here, we see a rapid transient, followed by a gradual 4-5 fold decay in the rate, and then levels off. This picture seems consistent with the two-state description. However, the authors demonstrate that individual animals exhibit different "transition" statistics (Figure 1e) and wish to explain this. They do so by fitting this mean with a single function (Equations 1-3).

      Strengths:

      As a qualitative exercise, the paper might have some merit. It demonstrates that apparently discrete states can sometimes be artifacts of sampling from smoothly time-changing dynamics. However, as a generic point, this is not novel, and so without the grounding in C. elegans data, is less interesting.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors claim that only about half the animals tested exhibit discontinuity in turning rates. Can they automatically separate the empirical and model population into these two subpopulations (with the same method), and compare the results?

      Thank you, we should clarify that the observation that about half the animals exhibit discontinuity was not made by us, but by López-Cruz et al. The observed fraction of 50% was based on a visual assessment of the dual regression method we described. To make the process more objective, we decided to simply plot the distributions of the metrics they used for this assessment to see if two distinct populations could be observed. However, the distributions of slope differences and transition times do not produce two distinct populations. Our stochastic approach, which does not assume abrupt state-transitions, also produces comparable distributions. To quantify this, we will perform permutation tests on the means and variances differences between experimental and model data.

      (2) The equations consider an exponentially decaying rate of turning events. If so, Figure 2b should be shown on a semi-logarithmic scale.

      We are happy to add this panel as well.

      (3) The variables in Equations 1-3 and the methods for simulating them are not well defined, making the method difficult to follow. Assuming my reading is correct, Omega should be defined as the cumulative number of turning events over time (Omega(t)), not as a "turn" or "reorientation", which has no derivative. The relevant entity in Figure 1a is apparently <Omega (t)>, i.e. the mean number of events across a population which can be modelled by an expectation value. The time derivative would then give the expected rate of turning events as a function of time.

      Thank you, you are correct. Please see response to Reviewer #1.

      (4) Equations 1-3 are cryptic. The authors need to spell out up front that they are using a pair of coupled stochastic processes, sampling a hidden state M (to model the dynamic turning rate) and the actual turn events, Omega(t), separately, as described in Figure 2a. In this case, the model no longer appears more parsimonious than the original 2-state model. What then is its benefit or explanatory power (especially since the process involving M is not observable experimentally)?

      Thank you, yes we see how as written this was confusing. In our response to Reviewer #1, we added an important detail:

      While reorientations are modeled as discrete events, which is observationally true, the amount of M at time t\=0 is chosen to be large (M<sub>0</sub>←1,000), so that over the timescale of 40 minutes, the decay in M is practically continuous. This ensures that sudden changes in reorientations are not due to sudden changes in M, but due to the inherent stochasticity of reorientations.

      However you are correct that if M was chosen to have a binary value of 0 or 1, then this would indeed be the two state model. Adding this as an additional model would be a good idea to compare how this matches the experimental data, and we are happy to add it.

      (5) Further, as currently stated in the paper, Equations 1-3 are only for the mean rate of events. However, the expectation value is not a complete description of a stochastic system. Instead, the authors need to formulate the equations for the probability of events, from which they can extract any moment (they write something in Figure 2a, but the notation there is unclear, and this needs to be incorporated here).

      Thank you, yes please see our response to Reviewer #1.

      (6) Equations 1-3 have three constants (alpha and gamma which were fit to the data, and M0 which was presumably set to 1000). How does the choice of M0 affect the results?

      Thank you, this is a good question. We will test this down to a binary state of M as mentioned in comment #4.

      (7) M decays to near 0 over 40 minutes, abolishing omega turns by the end of the simulations. Are omega turns entirely abolished in worms after 30-40 minutes off food? How do the authors reconcile this decay with the leveling of the turning rate in Figure 1a?

      Yes, reviewer #1 recommended adding a baseline reorientation rate which is likely more biologically plausible. However, we should also note that in Klein et al they observed a continuous decay over 50 minutes.

      (8) The fit given in Figure 2b does not look convincing. No statistical test was used to compare the two functions (empirical and fit). No error bars were given (to either). These should be added. In the discussion, the authors explain the discrepancy away as experimental limitations. This is not unreasonable, but on the flip side, makes the argument inconclusive. If the authors could model and simulate these limitations, and show that they account for the discrepancies with the data, the model would be much more compelling. To do this, I would imagine that the authors would need to take the output of their model (lists of turning times) and convert them into simulated trajectories over time. These trajectories could be used to detect boundary events (for a given size of arena), collisions between individuals, etc. in their simulations and to see their effects on the turn statistics.

      Thank you, we will add error bars and perform a permutation test on the mean and variance differences between experiment and model over the 40 minute window.

      (9) The other figures similarly lack any statistical tests and by eye, they do not look convincing. The exception is the 6 anecdotal examples in Figure 2e. Those anecdotal examples match remarkably closely, almost suspiciously so. I'm not sure I understood this though - the caption refers to "different" models of M decay (and at least one of the 6 examples clearly shows a much shallower exponential). If different M models are allowed for each animal, this is no longer parsimonious. Are the results in Figure 2d for a single M model? Can Figure 2e explain the data with a single (stochastic) M model?

      Thank you, yes, we will perform permutation tests on the mean and variance differences in the observed distributions in figure 2d. We certainly don’t want the panels in Figure 2e to be suspicious! These comparisons were drawn from calculating the correlations between all model traces and all experimental traces, and then choosing the top hits. Every time we run the simulation, we arrive at a different set of examples. Since it was recommended we add a baseline rate, these examples will be a completely different set when we run the simulation, again.

      We apologize for the confusion regarding M. Since the worms do not all start out with identical reorientation rates, we drew the initial M value from a distribution centered on M0 and a variance to match the initial distribution of observed experimental rates.

      (10) The left axes of Figure 2e should be reverted to cumulative counts (without the normalization).

      Thank you, we will add this. We want to clarify that we normalized it because we chose these examples based on correlation to show that the same types of sudden changes in search strategy can occur with a model that doesn’t rely on sudden rate changes.

      (11) The authors give an alternative model of a Levy flight, but do not give the obvious alternative models:

      a) the 1-state model in which P(t) = alpha exp (-gamma t) dt (i.e. a single stochastic process, without a hidden M, collapsing equations 1-3 into a single equation).

      b) the originally proposed 2-state model (with 3 parameters, a high turn rate, a low turn rate, and the local-to-global search transition time, which can be taken from the data, or sampled from the empirical probability distributions). Why not? The former seems necessary to justify the more complicated 2-process model, and the latter seems necessary since it's the model they are trying to replace. Including these two controls would allow them to compare the number of free parameters as well as the model results. I am also surprised by the Levy model since Levy is a family of models. How were the parameters of the Levy walk chosen?

      Thank you, we will remove this section completely, as it is tangential to the main point of the paper.

      (12) One point that is entirely missing in the discussion is the individuality of worms. It is by now well known that individual animals have individual behaviors. Some are slow/fast, and similarly, their turn rates vary. This makes this problem even harder. Combined with the tiny number of events concerned (typically 20-40 per experiment), it seems daunting to determine the underlying model from behavioral statistics alone.

      Thank you, yes we should have been more explicit in the reasoning behind drawing the initial M from a distribution (response to comment #9). We assume that not every worm starts out with the same reorientation rate, but that some start out fast (high M) and some start out slow (low M). However, we do assume M decays with the same kinetics, which seems sufficient to produce the observed phenomena.

      (13) That said, it's well-known which neurons underpin the suppression of turning events (starting already with Gray et al 2005, which, strangely, was not cited here). Some discussion of the neuronal predictions for each of the two (or more) models would be appropriate.

      Thank you, yes we will add Gray et al, but also the more detailed response to Reviewer #2.

      (14) An additional point is the reliance entirely on simulations. A rigorous formulation (of the probability distribution rather than just the mean) should be analytically tractable (at least for the first moment, and possibly higher moments). If higher moments are not obtainable analytically, then the equations should be numerically integrable. It seems strange not to do this.

      Thank you for suggesting this, we will add these analyses.

      In summary, while sample simulations do nicely match the examples in the data (of discontinuous vs continuous turning rates), this is not sufficient to demonstrate that the transition from ARS to dispersion in C. elegans is, in fact, likely to be a single 'state', or this (eq 1-3) single state. Of course, the model can be made more complicated to better match the data, but the approach of the authors, seeking an elegant and parsimonious model, is in principle valid, i.e. avoiding a many-parameter model-fitting exercise.

      As a qualitative exercise, the paper might have some merit. It demonstrates that apparently discrete states can sometimes be artifacts of sampling from smoothly time-changing dynamics. However, as a generic point, this is not novel, and so without the grounding in C. elegans data, is less interesting.

      Thank you, we agree that this is a generic phenomenon, which is partly why we did this. The data from López-Cruz seem to agree in part with Calhoun et al, that claim abrupt transitions occur, and Klein et al, which claim they do not occur. Since the underlying phenomenon is stochastic, we propose the mixed observations of sudden and gradual changes in search strategy are simply the result of a stochastic process, which can produce both phenomena for individual observations.

    1. Author Response

      Reviewer 1:

      Comment 1.1: The distinction of PIGS from nearby OPA, which has also been implied in navigation and ego-motion, is not as clear as it could be.

      Response1.1: The main functional distinction between TOS/OPA and PIGS is that TOS/OPA responds preferentially to moving vs. stationary stimuli (even concentric rings), likely due to its overlap with the retinotopic motion-selective visual area V3A, for which this is a defining functional property (e.g. Tootell et al., 1997, J Neurosci). In comparison, PIGS does not show such a motion-selectivity. Instead, PIGS responds preferentially to more complex forms of motion within scenes. In this revision, we tried to better highlight this point in the Discussion (see also the response to the first comment from Reviewer #2).

      Reviewer 2:

      Comment 2.1: First, the scene-selective region identified appears to overlap with regions that have previously been identified in terms of their retinotopic properties. In particular, it is unclear whether this region overlaps with V7/IPS0 and/or IPS1. This is particularly important since prior work has shown that OPA often overlaps with v7/IPS0 (Silson et al, 2016, Journal of Vision). The findings would be much stronger if the authors could show how the location of PIGS relates to retinotopic areas (other than V6, which they do currently consider). I wonder if the authors have retinotopic mapping data for any of the participants included in this study. If not, the authors could always show atlas-based definitions of these areas (e.g. Wang et al, 2015, Cerebral Cortex).

      Response 2.1: We thank the reviewers for reminding us to more clearly delineate this issue of possible overlap, including the information provided by Silson et al, 2016. The issue of possible overlap between area TOS/OPA and the retinotopic visual areas, both in humans and non-human primates, was also clarified by our team in 2011 (Nasr et al., 2011). As you can see in the enclosed figure, and consistent with those previous studies, TOS/OPA overlaps with visual areas V3A/B and V7. Whereas PIGS is located more dorsally close to IPS2-4. As shown here, there is no overlap between PIGS and TOS/OPA and there is no overlap between PIGS and areas V3A/B and V7. To more directly address the reviewer’s concern, in the next revision, we will show the relative position of PIGS and the retinotopic areas (at least) in one individual subject.

      Author response image 1.

      The relative location of PIGS, TOS/OPA and the retinotopic visual areas. The left panel showed the result of high-resolution (7T; voxel size = 1 mm; no spatial smoothing) polar angle mapping in one individual. The right panel shows the location of scene-selective areas PIGS and TOS/OPA in the same subject (7T; voxel size = 1 mm; no spatial smoothing). While area TOS/OPA shows some overlap with the retinotopic visual areas V3A/B and V7, PIGS shows partial overlap with area IPS2-4. In both panels, the activity maps are overlaid on the subjects’ own reconstructed brain surface.

      Comment 2.2: Second, recent studies have reported a region anterior to OPA that seems to be involved in scene memory (Steel et al, 2021, Nature Communications; Steel et al, 2023, The Journal of Neuroscience; Steel et al, 2023, biorXiv). Is this region distinct from PIGS? Based on the figures in those papers, the scene memory-related region is inferior to V7/IPS0, so characterizing the location of PIGS to V7/IPS0 as suggested above would be very helpful here as well. If PIGS overlaps with either of V7/IPS0 or the scene memory-related area described by Steel and colleagues, then arguably it is not a newly defined region (although the characterization provided here still provides new information).

      Response 2.2: The lateral-place memory area (LPMA) is located on the lateral brain surface, anterior relative to the IPS (see Figure 1 from Steel et al., 2021 and Figure 3 from Steel et al., 2023). In contrast, PIGS is located on the posterior brain surface, also posterior relative to the IPS. In other words, they are located on two different sides of a major brain sulcus. In this revision we have clarified this point, including the citations by Steel and colleagues.

      Comments 2.3: Another reason that it would be helpful to relate PIGS to this scene memory area is that this scene memory area has been shown to have activity related to the amount of visuospatial context (Steel et al, 2023, The Journal of Neuroscience). The conditions used to show the sensitivity of PIGS to ego-motion also differ in the visuospatial context that can be accessed from the stimuli. Even if PIGS appears distinct from the scene memory area, the degree of visuospatial context is an alternative account of what might be represented in PIGS.

      Response 2.3: The reviewer raises an interesting point. One minor confusion is that we may be inadvertently referring to two slightly different types of “visuospatial context”. Specifically, the stimuli used in the ego-motion experiment here (i.e. coherently vs. incoherently changing scenes) represent the same scenes, and the only difference between the two conditions is the sequence of images across the experimental blocks. In that sense, the two experimental conditions may be considered to have the same visuospatial context. However, it could be also argued that the coherently changing scenes provide more information about the environmental layout. In that case, considering the previous reports that PPA/TPA and RSC/MPA may also be involved in layout encoding (Epstein and Kanwisher 1998; Wolbers et al. 2011), we expected to see more activity within those regions in response to coherently compared incoherently changing scenes. These issues are now more explicitly discussed in the revised article.

      Reviewer 3:

      Comment 3.1: There are few weaknesses in this work. If pressed, I might say that the stimuli depicting ego-motion do not, strictly speaking, depict motion, but only apparent motion between 2s apart photographs. However, this choice was made to equate frame rates and motion contrast between the 'ego-motion' and a control condition, which is a useful and valid approach to the problem. Some choices for visualization of the results might be made differently; for example, outlines of the regions might be shown in more plots for easier comparison of activation locations, but this is a minor issue.

      Response 3.1: We thank the reviewer for these constructive suggestions, and we agree with their comment that the ego-motion stimuli are not smooth, even though they were refreshed every 100 ms. However, the stimuli were nevertheless coherent enough to activate areas V6 and MT, two major areas known to respond preferentially to coherent compared to incoherent motion.

      Epstein, R., and N. Kanwisher. 1998. 'A cortical representation of the local visual environment', Nature, 392: 598-601.

      Wolbers, T., R. L. Klatzky, J. M. Loomis, M. G. Wutte, and N. A. Giudice. 2011. 'Modality-independent coding of spatial layout in the human brain', Curr Biol, 21: 984-9.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study offers a valuable advance for neuroscience by extending a visualization tool that enables intuitive assessment of how dendritic and synaptic currents shape the output of neurons. The evidence supporting the tool's capabilities is convincing and solid, with well-documented code, algorithmic innovation, and application to hippocampal pyramidal neurons - although experimental confirmation of the predictions is not provided. The work will be of interest to computational and systems neuroscientists seeking accessible methods to examine dendritic computations.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Fogel & Ujfalussy report an extension of a visualization tool that was originally designed to enable an understanding of detailed biophysical neuron models. Named "extended currentscape", this new iteration enables visual assessment of individual currents across a neuron's spatially extended dendritic arbor with simultaneous readout of somatic currents and voltage. The overall aim was to permit a visually intuitive understanding for how a model neuron's inputs determine its output. This goal was worthwhile and the authors achieved it. Their manuscript makes two additional contributions of note: (1) a clever algorithmic approach to model the axial propagation of ionic currents (recursively traversing acyclic graph subsections) and (2) interesting, albeit not easily testable, insights into important neurophysiological phenomena such as complex spike generation and place field dynamics. Overall, this study provides a valuable and well-characterized biophysical modeling resource to the neuroscience community.

      Strengths:

      The authors significantly extended a previously published open-source biophysical modeling tool. Beyond providing important new capabilities, the potential impact of "extended currentscape" is boosted by its integration with preexisting resources in the field.

      The code is well-documented and freely available via GitHub.

      The author's clever portioning algorithm to relate dendritic/synaptic currents to somatic yielded multiple intriguing observations regarding when and why CA1 pyramidal neurons fire complex spikes versus single action potentials. This topic carries major implications for how the hippocampus represents and stores information about an animal's environment.

      Weaknesses:

      While extended currentscape is clearly a valuable contribution to the neuroscience community, this reviewer would argue that it is framed in a way that oversells its capabilities. The Abstract, Introduction, Results, and Methods all contain phrases implying that extended currentscape infers dendritic/synaptic currents contributing to somatic output., i.e. backwards inference of unknown inputs from a known output. This is not the case; inputs are simulated and then propagated through the model neuron using a clever partitioning algorithm that essentially traverses a biologically undirected graph structure by treating it like a time series of tiny directed graphs. This is an impressive solution, but it does not infer a neuron's input structure.

      Because a directed acyclic graph architecture is shown in Figure 2, it is unintuitive that the authors can infer bidirectional current flow, e.g. Figure 3 showing current flowing from basal dendrites and axon to soma, and further towards the apical dendrites. This is explained in Methods, but difficult to parse from Results amidst lots of rather abstract jargon (target, reference, collision, compartment). Figure 2 would have presented an opportunity to clearly illustrate the author's portioning algorithm by (1) rooting it in the exact morphology of one of their multicompartmental model neurons and (2) illustrating that "target" and "reference" have arbitrary morphological meanings; they describe the direction of current flow which is reevaluated at each time step.

      Analyses in Figure 7, C and D, are insightfully devised and illuminating. However, they could use some reconciliation with Figure 5 regarding initiation of individual APs versus CSBs within place fields.

      The intriguing observations generated by extended currentscape also point to its main weakness, which the authors openly acknowledge: as of now, no experimental methods exist to conclusively tests its predictions.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary


      The electrical activity of neurons and neuronal circuits is dictated by the concerted activity of multiple ionic currents. Because directly investigating these currents experimentally isn't possible with current methods, researchers rely on biophysical models to develop hypotheses and intuitions about their dynamics. Models of neural activity produce large amounts of data that is hard to visualize and interpret. The currentscape technique helps visualize the contributions of currents to membrane potential activity, but it's limited to model neurons without spatial properties. The extended currentscape technique overcomes this limitation by tracking the contributions of the different currents from distant locations. This extension allows tracking not only the types of currents that contribute to the activity in a given location, but also visualizing the spatial region where the currents originate. The method is applied to study the initiation of complex spike bursts in a model hippocampal place cell. 



      Strengths.


      The visualization method introduced in this work represents a significant improvement over the original currentscape technique. The extended currentscape method enables investigation of the contributions of currents in spatially extended models of neurons and circuits. 



      Weaknesses.


      The case study is interesting and highlights the usefulness of the visualization method. A simpler case study may have been sufficient to exemplify the method, while also allowing readers to compare the visualizations against their own intuitions of how currents should flow in a simpler setting.

    4. Author response:

      We are very pleased to hear the overall positive views and constructive criticisms of eLife Editors and Reviewers on our work. In particular, we appreciate their global assessment that the work offers a valuable tool for neuroscientists to visualize and assess dendritic computations.

      We will clarify in a revised version of the manuscript that we do not infer the synaptic inputs of the neuron. Also, we will add a new simulation with simpler morphology to illustrate the method under more intuitive conditions. We will also clarify the meaning of the "target" and "reference" compartments. These labels do not depend on the direction of the current flow, but we can freely chose any compartment to be the target, and then the axial currents will be evaluated relative to that compartment in each time step.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study presents valuable findings from a spatiotemporal analysis of arbovirus case notification data from 2013 to 2020 in Brazil, reporting associations between covariates representing potential drivers of arbovirus transmission and recorded incidence. The work is methodologically solid, though it is unclear how much explanatory power inclusion of the covariates adds. The findings will be of interest to researchers working on the epidemiology of arboviruses.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors used fine-level resolution epidemiological data to describe the spatiotemporal patterns of dengue, chikungunya and Zika. They assessed which factors best captured the historic transmission dynamics in Brazil. It was used epidemiological data from 2013 to 2020. They tested the association between arbovirus incidence and environment, human connectivity and socioeconomic, and climate variables, including extreme weather conditions.

      Strengths:

      The authors used granular epidemiological data at the subnational level and weekly case notification time series. Furthermore, they considered more than one hundred variables. Among the variables, it is highlighted that they also considered human connectivity and extreme weather events.

      The authors used appropriate statistical methods accounting for the spatiotemporal structure and used the negative binomial to handle overdispersion; They applied a systematic covariate screening, using WAIC and performed sensitivity analysis. Their results suggest an important role of climate variables such as El Niño South Oscillation Anomalies, and that extremes in wetness and drought may drive infections outside regular patterns; it also suggests that temperature variations and extremes may be more associated with the incidence than the mean temperature; in addition, human connectivity networks are also pointed out as a key driver factor at fine level scale.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors have not accounted for the correlation between diseases. They have not considered the co-occurrence of diseases by applying a joint modelling approach, nor have they discussed this as a possibility for future work. Still, regarding the methods, they used a simplified lag treatment. They could have included into the discussion, examples of methods like Distributed Lag Models. This can be used in contexts when analysing meteorological covariates and extreme weather events.

      They also have not considered the population's immunity to the different serotypes of dengue, which can reflect in peaks of incidence when a new serotype starts to circulate in a certain region. It is important to bring this into the discussion section.

      Whether the authors achieved their aims, and whether the results support their conclusions:

      The authors assess variables which may be associated with different vector-borne disease incidence and the magnitude of these associations. Conducting a fine-scale resolution analysis (spatial and temporal), they emphasised the role of environmental and extreme weather conditions. Their findings are coherent with their analysis and corroborate some of the existing literature.

      Discussion of the likely impact of the work on the field, and the utility of the methods and data to the community:

      Their work shows how the different vector-borne diseases are influenced by environmental and climatic factors and that human connectivity may play an important role at the fine level spatial and temporal scale. This work brings a picture of the spatial and temporal distributions of dengue, chikungunya and Zika, at the municipal level in Brazil (2013-2020). The material and methods are well described, and the source is made available, allowing reproducibility by other researchers and academics.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript looks at a wide variety of likely important drivers of arbovirus transmission across municipalities in Brazil. The results are intriguing due to their relevance and breadth, but the approach also brings challenges, which make the results hard to interpret.

      Strengths:

      Important and complex problem, excellent spatiotemporal resolution, collection of important covariates, and holistic analysis.

      Weaknesses:

      There are two key weaknesses. First, it is difficult to understand the actual contributions of each included covariate. The principal fit metric is WAIC, and importance is characterized by rank based on univariate fit. WAIC is a valuable comparison metric, but does not indicate how well the best model (or any other) fits the data. Figures 5B and S2-S4 show what look like good fits, but it also seems possible that most of this fit could be coming from the random effects rather than the covariates. It would be helpful to show the RE-only model as a comparator in these figures and also to consider other metrics that could help show overall fit (e.g., R^2). How much variance is actually being explained by the covariates?

      Relatedly, the mean absolute errors reported are approximately 2-8 across the viruses, which sounds good on the surface. But many of the actual counts are zeros, so it's hard to tell if this is really good. Comparison to the mean and median observed case counts would be helpful.

      Second, some of the results/discussion on specific variables and covariates were confusing. For example, the relationships between relative humidity and temperature vary substantially between pathogens and minimum or maximum temperature values. However, as transmission of three viruses relies on the same mosquito and minimum and maximum temperatures are highly correlated, we would expect these relationships to be very similar. One concern is clarity, and another is that some of the findings may be spurious - potentially related to how much of the variance is accounted for by the random effects alone (see above) and the wide range of covariates assessed (thus increasing the chance of something improving fit).

      Underlying much of this are likely nonlinear relationships. The authors comment on this as a likely reason for some of the specific relationships, but it is not a very strong argument because the variable selection process is completely based on (generalized) linear univariate regressions.

      Lastly, the mischaracterization of arboviral disease is a big challenge, as noted in the discussion. Only a subset of cases in Brazil are laboratory confirmed, but I couldn't find any statement about whether the cases used here were laboratory confirmed or not. I suspect that they are a combination of confirmed and suspect cases. A sensitivity analysis with only confirmed cases would increase confidence in the results.

    4. Author response:

      We thank the reviewers for their time and work assessing our manuscript, and for their constructive suggestions for improvements. Based on the reviews, our plan is to adapt the work as follows:

      (1)  Perform a sensitivity analysis considering only confirmed dengue, Zika, and chikungunya cases,

      (2)  Explore and discuss the potential correlation between diseases,

      (3)  Compare the baseline and final models,

      (4)  Assess model fit using a wider variety of metrics.

      We would like to emphasise that our research question was to explore drivers of arbovirus incidence outside of seasonal trends. We therefore designed our models with flexible spatiotemporal random effects to capture baseline patterns, and as the reviewers have highlighted, much of the variance is explained by these random effects. To expand on point 3 above, we will perform a comparison of the baseline random effect models and the final multivariable models to show the differences between the models and quantify the additional impact of the meteorological variables in the final models.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This important study investigates how the nervous system adapts to changes in body mechanics using a tendon transfer surgery that imposes a mismatch between muscle contraction and mechanical action. Using electromyography (EMG) to track muscle activity in two macaque monkeys, the authors conclude that there is a two-phase recovery process that reflects different underlying strategies. However, neither monkey's data includes a full set of EMG and kinematic measurements, and the two datasets are not sufficiently aligned with each other from a behavioural point of view; as a result, the evidence supporting the conclusions is solid but could be improved.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Many studies have investigated adaptation to altered sensorimotor mappings or to an altered mechanical environment. This paper asks a different but also important question in motor control and neurorehabilitation: how does the brain adapt to changes in the controlled plant? The authors addressed this question by performing a tendon transfer surgery in two monkeys during which the swapped tendons flexing and extending the digits. They then monitored changes in task performance, muscle activation and kinematics post-recovery over several months, to assess changes in putative neural strategies.

      Strengths:

      (1) The authors performed complicated tendon transfer experiments to address their question of how the nervous system adapts to changes in the organisation of the neuromusculoskeletal system, and present very interesting data characterising neural (and in one monkey, also behavioural) changes post tendon transfer over several months.

      (2) The fact that the authors had to employ to two slightly different tasks -one more artificial, the other more naturalistic- in the two monkeys and yet found qualitatively similar changes across them makes the findings more compelling.

      (3) The paper is quite well written, and the analyses are sound, although some analyses could be improved (suggestions below).

      Weaknesses:

      (1) I think this is an important paper, paper but I'm puzzled about a tension in the results. On the one hand, it looks like the behavioural gains post-TT happen rather smoothly over time (Figure 5). On the other, muscle synergy activations changes abruptly at specific days (around day ~65 for Monkey A and around day ~45 for monkey B; e.g., Figure 6). How do the authors reconcile this tension? In other words, how do they think that this drastic behavioural transition can arise from what appears to be step-by-step, continuous changes in muscle coordination? Is it "just" subtle changes in movements/posture exploiting the mechanical coupling between wrist and finger movements combined with subtle changes in synergies and they just happen to all kick in at the same time? This feels to me the core of the paper and should be addressed more directly.

      (2) The muscles synergy analyses, which are an important part of the paper, could be improved. In particular:

      (2a) When measuring the cross-correlation between the activation of synergies, the authors should include error bars, and should also look at the lag between the signals.

      (2b) Figure 7C and related figures, the authors state that the activation of muscle synergies revert to pre-TT patterns toward the end of the experiments. However, there are noticeable differences for both monkeys (at the end of the "task range" for synergy B for monkey A, and around 50 % task range for synergy B for monkey B). The authors should measure this, e.g., by quantifying the per-sample correlation between pre-TT and post-TT activation amplitudes. Same for Figures 8I,J, etc.

      (2c) In Figures 9 and 10, the authors show the cross-correlation of the activation coefficients of different synergies; the authors should also look at the correlation between activation profiles because it provides additional information.

      (2d) Figure 11: the authors talk about a key difference in how Synergy B (the extensor finger) evolved between monkeys post-TT. However, to me this figure feels more like a difference in quantity -the time course- than quality, since for both monkeys the aaEMG levels pretty much go back to close to baseline levels -even if there's a statistically significant difference only for Monkey B. What am I missing?

      (2e) Lines 408-09 and above: The authors claim that "The development of a compensatory strategy, primarily involving the wrist flexor synergy (Synergy C), appears crucial for enabling the final phase of adaptation", which feels true intuitively and also based on the analysis in Figure 8, but Figure 11 suggests this is only true for Monkey A . How can these statements be reconciled?

      (3) Experimental design: at least for the monkey who was trained on the "artificial task" (Monkey A), it would have been good if the authors had also tested him on naturalistic grasping, like the second monkey, to see to what extent the neural changes generalise across behaviours or are task-specific. Do the authors have some data that could be used to assessed this even if less systematically?

      (4) Monkey's B behaviour pre-tendon transfer seems more variable than that of Monkey A (e.g., the larger error bars in Figure 5 compared to monkey A, the fluctuating cross-correlation between FDS pre and EDC post in Figure 6Q), this should be quantified to better ground the results since it also shows more variability post-TT.

      (5) Minor: Figure 12 is interesting and supports the idea that monkeys may exploit the biomechanical coupling between wrist and fingers as part of their function recovery. It would be interesting to measure whether there is a change in such coupling (tenodesis) over time, e.g., by plotting change in wrist angle vs change in MCP angle as a scatter plot (one dot per trial), and in the same plot show all the days, colour coded by day. Would the relationship remain largely constant or fluctuate slightly early on? I feel this analysis could also help address my point (1) above.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study tackles an important question for both basic science understanding and translational relevance - how does the nervous system learn to control a changing body? Of course, all bodies change slowly over time, including basic parameters like size and weight distribution, but many types of diseases and injuries also alter the body and require neural adaptation to sustain normal control. A dramatic example from the clinic is the use of tendon transfer surgery in patients with near tetraplegia that allows them to use more proximal arm muscles to control the hand. Here, the authors sought to ask what strategies may be used when an animal adapts its motor control in response to tendon transfer. They focus on whether recovered functions leverage fractionated control over each muscle separately or, alternatively, whether there is evidence for modular control in which pre-existing synergies are recruited differently after the surgery. Overall, this work is very promising and advances the use of tendon transfer in animal models as a powerful way to study motor control flexibility, but the incomplete data and difficulty comparing between the two subjects mean that evidence is lacking for some of the conclusions.

      Strengths:

      A major strength of this paper is its motivating idea of using tendon transfer between flexor and extensor muscles in non-human primate wrist control to ask what adaptations are possible, how they evolve over time, and what might be the underlying neural control strategies. This is a creative and ambitious approach. Moreover, these surgeries are likely very challenging to do properly, and the authors rigorously documented the effectiveness of the transfer, particularly for Monkey A.

      The results are promising, and there are two very interesting findings suggested by the data. First, when a single muscle out of a related group is manipulated, there is aberrant muscle activity detected across related muscles that are coordinated with each other and impacted as a group. For example, when the main finger extensor muscle now becomes a flexor, the timing of its activation is changed, and this is accompanied by similar changes in a more minor finger extensor as well as in wrist extensor muscles. This finding was observed in both monkeys and likely reflects a modular adaptive response. Second, there is a biphasic response in the weeks following injury, with an early phase in which the magnitude of an extensor synergy was increased and the timing of flexor and extensor recruitment was altered, followed by a later phase in which the timing and overall magnitude are restored.

      Weaknesses:

      The most notable weakness of the study is the incompleteness of the data. Monkey A has excellent quality EMG in all relevant muscles, but no analysis of video data, while Monkey B has some video data kinematics and moderate quality EMG, but the signal in the transferred FDS muscle was lost. These issues could be overcome by aligning data between the two monkeys, but the behavior tasks performed by each monkey are different, and so are the resulting muscle synergies detected (e.g., for synergies C and D), and different timepoints were analyzed in each monkey. As a result, it is difficult to make general conclusions from the study, and it awaits further analysis or the addition of another subject.

      A second weakness is the insufficient analysis of the movements themselves, particularly for Monkey A. The main metrics analyzed were the time from task engagement (touch) to action onset and the time spent in an off-target location - neither of these measures can be related directly to muscle activity or the movement. Since the authors have video data for both monkeys, it is surprising that it was not used to extract landmarks for kinematic analysis, or at least hand/endpoint trajectory, and how it is adjusted over time. Adding more behavior data and aligning it with the EMG data would be very helpful for characterizing motor recovery and is needed to support conclusions about underlying neural control strategies for functional improvement.

      Considering specific conclusions, the statement that the monkeys learned to use "tenodesis" over time by increasing activation of a wrist flexor muscle synergy does not seem to be fully supported by the data. Monkey A data includes EMG for two wrist flexors and a clear wrist flexor synergy, but it seems that, when comparing baseline and the final post-surgery timepoints, the main change is decreased activity around grasp after tendon transfer (at 0% of the task range if I understand this correctly) (Figure 8E and Figure S2-H vs R and -I vs S). It is clear that Monkey B increases the flexion of the wrist joint over time from the kinematic data, but the activity pattern in the only recorded wrist flexor (PL) doesn't change much with time (Figure S2-AN) and this monkey does not have a clear wrist flexor synergy (PL is active in the flexor synergy A while synergy C mainly reflects deltoid activity). Given these issues, it is not clear how to align the EMG and kinematic data and interpret these findings.

      A more minor point regarding conclusions: statements about poor task performance and high energy expenditure being the costs that drive exploration for a new strategy are speculative and should be presented as such. Although the monkeys did take longer to complete the tasks after the surgery, they were still able to perform it successfully and in less than a second and no measurements of energy expenditure were taken.

      A small concern is whether the tendon transfer effect may fail over time, either due to scar tissue formation or tendon tearing, and it would be ideal if the integrity of the intervention were re-assessed at the end of the study.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Philipp et al. investigate how a monkey learns to compensate for a large, chronic biomechanical perturbation - a tendon transfer surgery, swapping the actions of two muscles that flex and extend the fingers. After performing the surgery and confirming that the muscle actions are swapped, the authors follow the monkeys' performance on grasping tasks over several months. There are several main findings:

      (1) There is an initial stage of learning (around 60 days), where monkeys simply swap the activation timing of their flexors and extensors during the grasp task to compensate for the two swapped muscles.

      (2) This is (seemingly paradoxically) followed by a stage where muscle activation timing returns almost to what it was pre-surgery, suggesting that monkeys suddenly swap to a new strategy that is better than the simple swap.

      (3) Muscle synergies seem remarkably stable through the entire learning course, indicating that monkeys do not fractionate their muscle control to swap the activations of only the two transferred muscles.

      (4) Muscle synergy activation shows a similar learning course, where the flexion synergy and extension synergy activations are temporarily swapped in the first learning stage and then revert to pre-surgery timing in the second learning stage.

      (5) The second phase of learning seems to arise from making new, compensatory movements (supported by other muscle synergies) that get around the problem of swapped tendons.

      Strengths:

      This study is quite remarkable in scope, studying two monkeys over a period of months after a difficult tendon-transfer surgery. As the authors point out, this kind of perturbation is an excellent testbed for the kind of long-term learning that one might observe in a patient after stroke or injury, and provides unique benefits over more temporary perturbations like visuomotor transformations and studying learning through development. Moreover, while the two-stage learning course makes sense, I found the details to be genuinely surprising--specifically the fact that: (1) muscle synergies continue to be stable for months after the surgery, despite now being maladaptive; and (2) muscle activation timing reverts to pre-surgery levels by the end of the learning course. These two facts together initially make it seem like the monkey simply ignores the new biomechanics by the end of the learning course, but the authors do well to explain that this is mainly because the monkeys develop a new kind of movement to circumvent the surgical manipulation.

      I found these results fascinating, especially in comparison to some recent work in motor cortex, showing that a monkey may be able to break correlations between the activities of motor cortical neurons, but only after several sessions of coaching and training (Oby et al. PNAS 2019). Even then, it seemed like the monkey was not fully breaking correlations but rather pushing existing correlations harder to succeed at the virtual task (a brain-computer interface with perturbed control).

      Weaknesses:

      I found the analysis to be reasonably well considered and relatively thorough. However, I do have a few suggestions that I think may elevate the work, should the authors choose to pursue them.

      First, I find myself wondering about the physical healing process from the tendon transfer surgery and how it might contribute to the learning. Specifically, how long does it take for the tendons to heal and bear forces? If this itself takes a few months, it would be nice to see some discussion of this.

      Second, I see that there are some changes in the muscle loadings for each synergy over the days, though they are relatively small. The authors mention that the cosine distances are very small for the conserved synergies compared to distances across synergies, but it would be good to get a sense for how variable this measure is within synergy. For example, what is the cosine similarity for a conserved synergy across different pre-surgery days? This might help inform whether the changes post-surgery are within a normal variation or whether they reflect important changes in how the muscles are being used over time.

      Last, and maybe most difficult (and possibly out of scope for this work): I would have ideally liked to see some theoretical modeling of the biomechanics so I could more easily understand what the tendon transfer did or how specific synergies affect hand kinematics before and after the surgery. Especially given that the synergies remained consistent, such an analysis could be highly instructive for a reader or to suggest future perturbations to further probe the effects of tendon transfer on long-term learning.

    5. Author response:

      Thank you for the thorough assessment and insightful reviews of our manuscript, "Multi-timescale neural adaptation underlying long-term musculoskeletal reorganization." We are very encouraged by the positive evaluation – particularly the recognition of the study as "important" with "solid" evidence – and we appreciate the constructive feedback provided in the public reviews.

      As requested, we would like to provide this provisional author response to accompany the first version of the Reviewed Preprint. While we plan to provide a detailed point-by-point response upon submission of the revised manuscript, this email outlines our overall revision plan based on the public reviews.

      We found the reviewers' comments to be extremely helpful and largely aligned with our own assessment of areas for clarification and strengthening. We plan a full revision that will address all points raised.

      Regarding Interpretations and Clarity:

      Several comments focused on clarifying key interpretations. We agree with these suggestions and have already incorporated significant textual revisions into the manuscript to:

      More explicitly articulate the proposed multi-timescale model that reconciles the smooth behavioral recovery with the abrupt neural shifts (addressing a core point from R1).

      Refine the interpretation of the compensatory tenodesis strategy, clarifying the distinct neural implementations observed in each monkey and the crucial role of temporal re-timing versus amplitude scaling (addressing points from R1 and R2).

      Correct our interpretation regarding the apparent differences in the "arms race" phenomenon, framing it more parsimoniously in terms of observational windows and individual adaptation rates (addressing R1).

      Ensure consistent and unambiguous terminology (e.g., using "activation profiles") throughout the text and figure captions (addressing R1).

      Carefully adjust language to distinguish between direct empirical findings and interpretations regarding concepts like energetic cost and the drivers of adaptation (addressing R2).

      Explicitly address the potential confound of physical tendon healing, clarifying in the Methods and Discussion why our surgical technique allows us to interpret the findings primarily in terms of neural learning (addressing R3).

      Regarding New Analyses and Data Presentation:

      The reviewers also provided excellent suggestions for new analyses to enhance the rigor and depth of our findings. We plan to undertake these analyses for the full revision, including:

      Adding measures of trial-to-trial variability (e.g., SEM envelopes) and time-lag analysis to our cross-correlation results (addressing R1).

      Performing a point-by-point statistical comparison to better characterize the subtle differences between pre-surgery and final recovered synergy profiles (addressing R1).

      Formally quantifying the baseline behavioral variability between the monkeys (addressing R1).

      Creating a new kinematic plot visualizing the refinement of the tenodesis skill over time (addressing R1).

      Establishing a baseline for normal day-to-day synergy variability by analyzing pre-surgery data (addressing R3).

      Incorporating additional behavioral/kinematic data (pull times and grasp aperture) into Figure 5 to provide a clearer link between neural changes and functional recovery (addressing R2).

      We have also noted the reviewers' suggestions regarding figure clarity and plan improvements where possible. We have already addressed some specific recommendations (e.g., elaborating captions for Figs 6 & 7, adding a supplementary table for muscle acronyms).

      We plan to address the 'Recommendations for the authors' thoroughly during the preparation of the revised manuscript. We are very grateful for all these recommendations, as we are confident they will significantly improve the quality, clarity, and impact of our work. We hope that these comprehensive revisions might also strengthen the final eLife assessment.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This paper contains valuable ideas for methodology concerned with the identification of genes associated with disease prognosis in a broad range of cancers. However, there are concerns that the statistical properties of MEMORY are incompletely investigated and described. Further, more precise details about the implementation of the method would increase the replicability of the findings by other researchers.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors propose a new technique which they name "Multi-gradient Permutation Survival Analysis (MEMORY)" that they use to identify "Genes Steadily Associated with Prognosis (GEARs)" using RNA-seq data from the TCGA database. The contribution of this method is one of the key stated aims of the paper. The majority of the paper focuses on various downstream analyses that make use of the specific GEARs identified by MEMORY to derive biological insights, with a particular focus on lung adenocarcinoma (LUAD) and breast invasive carcinoma (BRCA) which are stated to be representative of other cancers and are observed to have enriched mitosis and immune signatures, respectively. Through the lens of these cancers, these signatures are the focus of significant investigation in the paper.

      Strengths:

      The approach for MEMORY is well-defined and clearly presented, albeit briefly. This affords statisticians and bioinformaticians the ability to effectively scrutinize the proposed methodology and may lead to further advancements in this field. The scientific aspects of the paper (e.g., the results based on the use of MEMORY and the downstream bioinformatics workflows) are conveyed effectively and in a way that is digestible to an individual that is not deeply steeped in the cancer biology field.

      Weaknesses:

      Comparatively little of the paper is devoted to the justification of MEMORY (i.e., the authors' method) for identification of genes that are important broadly for the understanding of cancer. The authors' approach is explained in the methods section of the paper, but no comparison or reference is made to any other methods that have been developed for similar purposes, and no results are shown to illustrate the robustness of the proposed method (e.g., is it sensitive to subtle changes in how it is implemented).

      For example, in the first part of the MEMORY algorithm, gene expression values are dichotomized at the sample median, and a log-rank test is performed. This would seemingly result in an unnecessary loss of information for detecting an association between gene expression and survival. Moreover, while dichotomizing gene expressions at the median is optimal from an information theory perspective (i.e., it creates equally sized groups), there is no reason to believe that median-dichotomization is correct vis-à-vis the relationship between gene expression and survival. If a gene really matters and expression only differentiates survival more towards the tail of the empirical gene expression distribution, median-dichotomization could dramatically lower power to detect group-wise differences. Notwithstanding this point, the reviewer acknowledges that dichotomization offers a straightforward approach to model gene expression and is widely used. This approach is nonetheless an example of a limitation of the current version of MEMORY that could be addressed to improve the methodology.

      If I understand correctly, for each cancer the authors propose to search for the smallest subsample size (i.e., the smallest value of k_{j}) were there is at least one gene with a survival analysis p-value <0.05 for each of the 1000 sampled datasets. Then, any gene with a p-value <0.05 in 80% of the 1000 sampled datasets would be called a GEAR for that cancer. The 80% value here is arbitrary but that is a minor point. I acknowledge that something must be chosen.

      Presumably the gene with the largest effect for the cancer will define the value of K_{j} and, if the effect is large, this may result in other genes with smaller effects not being defined as a GEAR for that cancer by virtue of the 80% threshold. Thus, a gene being a GEAR is related to the strength of association for other genes in addition to its own strength of association. One could imagine that a gene that has a small-to-moderate effect consistently across many cancers may not show up as GEAR in any of them (if there are [potentially different] genes with more substantive effects for those cancers). Is this desirable?

      The term "steadily associated" implies that a signal holds up across subsample gradients. Effectively this makes the subsampling a type of indirect adjustment to ensure the evidence of association is strong enough. How well this procedure performs in repeated use (i.e., as a statistical procedure) is not clear.

      Assuredly subsampling sets the bar higher than requiring a nominal p-value to be beneath the 0.05 threshold based on analysis of the full data set. The author's note that the MEMORY has several methodological limitations, "chief among them is the need for rigorous, large-scale multiple-testing adjustment before any GEAR list can be considered clinically actionable." The reviewer agrees and would add that it may be difficult to address this limitation within the author's current framework. Moreover, should the author's method be used before such corrections are available given their statement? Perhaps clarification of what it means to be clinically actionable could help here. If a researcher uses MEMORY to screen for GEARs based on the current methodology, what do the authors recommend be done to select a subset of GEARs worthy of additional research/investment?

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors are trying to come up with a list of genes (GEAR genes) that are consistently associated with cancer patient survival based on TCGA database. A method named "Multi-gradient Permutation Survival Analysis" was created based on bootstrapping and gradually increasing the sample size of the analysis. Only the genes with consistent performance in this analysis process are chosen as potential candidates for further analyses.

      Strengths:

      The authors describe in details their proposed method and the list of the chosen genes from the analysis. Scientific meaning and potential values of their findings are discussed in the context of published results in this field.

      Weaknesses:

      Some steps of the proposed method (especially the definition survival analysis similarity (SAS) need further clarification or details since it would be difficult if anyone tries to reproduce the results.

      If the authors can improve the clarity of the manuscript, including the proposed method and there is no major mistake there, the proposed approach can be applied to other diseases (assuming TCGA type of data is available for them) to identify potential gene lists, based on which drug screening can be performed to identify potential target for development.

    4. Reviewer #4 (Public review):

      Thank you to the authors for their detailed responses and changes in relation to my questions. They have addressed all my concerns around methodological and inference clarity. I would still recommend against the use of feature/pathway selection techniques where there is no way of applying formal error control. I am pleased to read, however, that the authors are planning to develop this in future work. My edited review reflects these changes:

      The authors apply what I gather is a novel methodology titled "Multi-gradient Permutation Survival Analysis" to identify genes that are robustly associated with prognosis ("GEARs") using tumour expression data from 15 cancer types available in the TCGA. The resulting lists of GEARs are then interrogated for biological insights using a range of techniques including connectivity and gene enrichment analysis.

      I reviewed this paper primarily from a statistical perspective. Evidently an impressive amount of work has been conducted, concisely summarised, and great effort has been undertaken to add layers of insight to the findings. I am no stranger to what an undertaking this would have been. My primary concern, however, is that the novel statistical procedure proposed, and applied to identify the gene lists, as far as I can tell offers no statistical error control nor quantification. Consequently we have no sense what proportion of the highlighted GEAR genes and networks are likely to just be noise.

      Major comments:

      The main methodology used to identify the GEAR genes, "Multi-gradient Permutation Survival Analysis" does not formally account for multiple testing and offers no formal error control. Meaning we are left without knowing what the family wise (aka type 1) error rate is among the GEAR lists, nor the false discovery rate. I appreciate the emphasis on reproducibility, but I would generally recommend against the use of any feature selection methodology which does not provide error quantification because otherwise we do not know if we are encouraging our colleagues and/or readers to put resource into lists of genes that contain more noise than not. I am glad though and appreciative that the authors intend to develop this in future work.

      The authors make a good point that, despite lack of validation in an external independent dataset, it is still compelling work given the functional characterisation and literature validation. I am pleased though that the authors agree validation in an independent dataset is an important next step, and plan to do so in future work.

    5. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors propose a new technique which they name "Multi-gradient Permutation Survival Analysis (MEMORY)" that they use to identify "Genes Steadily Associated with Prognosis (GEARs)" using RNA-seq data from the TCGA database. The contribution of this method is one of the key stated aims of the paper. The vast majority of the paper focuses on various downstream analyses that make use of the specific GEARs identified by MEMORY to derive biological insights, with a particular focus on lung adenocarcinoma (LUAD) and breast invasive carcinoma (BRCA) which are stated to be representative of other cancers and are observed to have enriched mitosis and immune signatures, respectively. Through the lens of these cancers, these signatures are the focus of significant investigation in the paper.

      Strengths:

      The approach for MEMORY is well-defined and clearly presented, albeit briefly. This affords statisticians and bioinformaticians the ability to effectively scrutinize the proposed methodology and may lead to further advancements in this field.

      The scientific aspects of the paper (e.g., the results based on the use of MEMORY and the downstream bioinformatics workflows) are conveyed effectively and in a way that is digestible to an individual who is not deeply steeped in the cancer biology field.

      Weaknesses:

      I was surprised that comparatively little of the paper is devoted to the justification of MEMORY (i.e., the authors' method) for the identification of genes that are important broadly for the understanding of cancer. The authors' approach is explained in the methods section of the paper, but no rationale is given for why certain aspects of the method are defined as they are. Moreover, no comparison or reference is made to any other methods that have been developed for similar purposes and no results are shown to illustrate the robustness of the proposed method (e.g., is it sensitive to subtle changes in how it is implemented).

      For example, in the first part of the MEMORY algorithm, gene expression values are dichotomized at the sample median and a log-rank test is performed. This would seemingly result in an unnecessary loss of information for detecting an association between gene expression and survival. Moreover, while dichotomizing at the median is optimal from an information theory perspective (i.e., it creates equally sized groups), there is no reason to believe that median-dichotomization is correct vis-à-vis the relationship between gene expression and survival. If a gene really matters and expression only differentiates survival more towards the tail of the empirical gene expression distribution, median-dichotomization could dramatically lower the power to detect group-wise differences.

      Thanks for these valuable comments!! We understand the reviewer’s concern regarding the potential loss of information caused by median-based dichotomization. In this study, we adopted the median as the cut-off value to stratify gene expression levels primarily for the purpose of data balancing and computational simplicity. This approach ensures approximately equal group sizes, which is particularly beneficial in the context of limited sample sizes and repeated sampling. While we acknowledge that this method may discard certain expression nuances, it remains a widely used strategy in survival analysis. To further evaluate and potentially enhance sensitivity, alternative strategies such as percentile-based cutoffs or survival models using continuous expression values (e.g., Cox regression) may be explored in future optimization of the MEMORY pipeline. Nevertheless, we believe that this dichotomization approach offers a straightforward and effective solution for the initial screening of survival-associated genes. We have now included this explanation in the revised manuscript (Lines 391–393).

      Specifically, the authors' rationale for translating the Significant Probability Matrix into a set of GEARs warrants some discussion in the paper. If I understand correctly, for each cancer the authors propose to search for the smallest sample size (i.e., the smallest value of k_{j}) were there is at least one gene with a survival analysis p-value <0.05 for each of the 1000 sampled datasets. I base my understanding on the statement "We defined the sampling size k_{j} reached saturation when the max value of column j was equal to 1 in a significant-probability matrix. The least value of k_{j} was selected". Then, any gene with a p-value <0.05 in 80% of the 1000 sampled datasets would be called a GEAR for that cancer. The 80% value here seems arbitrary but that is a minor point. I acknowledge that something must be chosen. More importantly, do the authors believe this logic will work effectively in general? Presumably, the gene with the largest effect for a cancer will define the value of K_{j}, and, if the effect is large, this may result in other genes with smaller effects not being selected for that cancer by virtue of the 80% threshold. One could imagine that a gene that has a small-tomoderate effect consistently across many cancers may not show up as a gear broadly if there are genes with more substantive effects for most of the cancers investigated. I am taking the term "Steadily Associated" very literally here as I've constructed a hypothetical where the association is consistent across cancers but not extremely strong. If by "Steadily Associated" the authors really mean "Relatively Large Association", my argument would fall apart but then the definition of a GEAR would perhaps be suboptimal. In this latter case, the proposed approach seems like an indirect way to ensure there is a reasonable effect size for a gene's expression on survival.

      Thank you for the comment and we apologize for the confusion! 𝐴<sub>𝑖𝑗</sub> refers to the value of gene i under gradient j in the significant-probability matrix, primarily used to quantify the statistical probability of association with patient survival for ranking purposes. We believe that GEARs are among the top-ranked genes, but there is no established metric to define the optimal threshold. An 80% threshold is previously employed as an empirical standard in studies related to survival estimates [1]. In addition, we acknowledge that the determination of the saturation point 𝑘<sub>𝑗</sub> is influenced by the earliest point at which any gene achieves consistent significance across 1000 permutations. We recognize that this may lead to the under representation of genes with moderate but consistent effects, especially in the presence of highly significant genes that dominate the statistical landscape. We therefore empirically used 𝐴<sub>𝑖𝑗</sub> > 0.8 the threshold to distinguish between GEARs and non-GEARs. Of course, this parameter variation may indeed result in the loss of some GEARs or the inclusion of non-GEARs. We also agree that future studies could investigate alternative metrics and more refined thresholds to improve the application of GEARs.

      Regarding the term ‘Steadily Associated’, we define GEARs based on statistical robustness across subsampled survival analyses within individual cancer types, rather than cross-cancer consistency or pan-cancer moderate effects. Therefore, our operational definition of “steadiness” emphasizes within-cancer reproducibility across sampling gradients, which does not necessarily exclude high-effect-size genes. Nonetheless, we agree that future extensions of MEMORY could incorporate cross-cancer consistency metrics to capture genes with smaller but reproducible pan-cancer effects.

      The paper contains numerous post-hoc hypothesis tests, statements regarding detected associations and correlations, and statements regarding statistically significant findings based on analyses that would naturally only be conducted in light of positive results from analyses upstream in the overall workflow. Due to the number of statistical tests performed and the fact that the tests are sometimes performed using data-driven subgroups (e.g., the mitosis subgroups), it is highly likely that some of the findings in the work will not be replicable. Of course, this is exploratory science, and is to be expected that some findings won't replicate (the authors even call for further research into key findings). Nonetheless, I would encourage the authors to focus on the quantification of evidence regarding associations or claims (i.e., presenting effect estimates and uncertainty intervals), but to avoid the use of the term statistical significance owing to there being no clear plan to control type I error rates in any systematic way across the diverse analyses there were performed.

      Thank you for the comment! We agree that rigorous control of type-I error is essential once a definitive list of prognostic genes is declared. The current implementation of MEMORY, however, is deliberately positioned as an exploratory screening tool: each gene is evaluated across 10 sampling gradients and 1,000 resamples per gradient, and the only quantity carried forward is its reproducibility probability (𝐴<sub>𝑖𝑗</sub>).

      Because these probabilities are derived from aggregate “votes” rather than single-pass P-values, the influence of any one unadjusted test is inherently diluted. In another words, whether or not a per-iteration BH adjustment is applied does not materially affect the ranking of genes by reproducibility, which is the key output at this stage. However, we also recognize that a clinically actionable GEARs catalogue will require extensive, large-scale multiple-testing adjustments. Accordingly, future versions of MEMORY will embed a dedicated false-positive control framework tailored to the final GEARs list before any translational application. We have added this point in the ‘Discussion’ in the revised manuscript (Lines 350-359).

      A prespecified analysis plan with hypotheses to be tested (to the extent this was already produced) and a document that defines the complete scope of the scientific endeavor (beyond that which is included in the paper) would strengthen the contribution by providing further context on the totality of the substantial work that has been done. For example, the focus on LUAD and BRCA due to their representativeness could be supplemented by additional information on other cancers that may have been investigated similarly but where results were not presented due to lack of space.

      We thank the reviewer for requesting greater clarity on the analytic workflow. The MEMORY pipeline was fully specified before any results were examined and is described in ‘Methods’ (Lines 386–407). By contrast, the pathway-enrichment and downstream network/mutation analyses were deliberately exploratory: their exact content necessarily depended on which functional categories emerged from the unbiased GEAR screen.

      Our screen revealed a pronounced enrichment of mitotic signatures in LUAD and immune signatures in BRCA.

      We then chose these two cancer types for deeper “case-study” analysis because they contained the largest sample sizes among all cancers showing mitotic- or immune-dominated GEAR profiles, and provided the greatest statistical power for follow-up investigations. We have added this explanation into the revised manuscript (Line 163, 219-220).

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors are trying to come up with a list of genes (GEAR genes) that are consistently associated with cancer patient survival based on TCGA database. A method named "Multi-gradient Permutation Survival Analysis" was created based on bootstrapping and gradually increasing the sample size of the analysis. Only the genes with consistent performance in this analysis process are chosen as potential candidates for further analyses.

      Strengths:

      The authors describe in detail their proposed method and the list of the chosen genes from the analysis. The scientific meaning and potential values of their findings are discussed in the context of published results in this field.

      Weaknesses:

      Some steps of the proposed method (especially the definition of survival analysis similarity (SAS) need further clarification or details since it would be difficult if anyone tries to reproduce the results. In addition, the multiplicity (a large number of p-values are generated) needs to be discussed and/or the potential inflation of false findings needs to be part of the manuscript.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s insightful comments. Accordingly, in the revised manuscript, we have provided a more detailed explanation of the definition and calculation of Survival-Analysis Similarity (SAS) to ensure methodological clarity and reproducibility (Lines 411-428); and the full code is now publicly available on GitHub (https://github.com/XinleiCai/MEMORY). We have also expanded the ‘Discussion’ to clarify our position on false-positive control: future releases of MEMORY will incorporate a dedicated framework to control false discoveries in the final GEARs catalogue, where itself will be subjected to rigorous, large-scale multiple-testing adjustment.

      If the authors can improve the clarity of the proposed method and there is no major mistake there, the proposed approach can be applied to other diseases (assuming TCGA type of data is available for them) to identify potential gene lists, based on which drug screening can be performed to identify potential target for development.

      Thank you for the suggestion. All source code has now been made publicly available on GitHub for reference and reuse. We agree that the GEAR lists produced by MEMORY hold considerable promise for drugscreening and target-validation efforts, and the framework could be applied to any disease with TCGA-type data. Of course, we also notice that the current GEAR catalogue should first undergo rigorous, large-scale multipletesting correction to further improve its precision before broader deployment.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors describe a valuable method to find gene sets that may correlate with a patient's survival. This method employs iterative tests of significance across randomised samples with a range of proportions of the original dataset. Those genes that show significance across a range of samples are chosen. Based on these gene sets, hub genes are determined from similarity scores.

      Strengths:

      MEMORY allows them to assess the correlation between a gene and patient prognosis using any available transcriptomic dataset. They present several follow-on analyses and compare the gene sets found to previous studies.

      Weaknesses:

      Unfortunately, the authors have not included sufficient details for others to reproduce this work or use the MEMORY algorithm to find future gene sets, nor to take the gene findings presented forward to be validated or used for future hypotheses.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comments! We apologize for the inconvenience and the lack of details.

      Followed the reviewer’s valuable suggestion, we have now made all source code and relevant scripts publicly available on GitHub to ensure full reproducibility and facilitate future use of the MEMORY algorithm for gene discovery and hypothesis generation.

      Reviewer #4 (Public review):

      The authors apply what I gather is a novel methodology titled "Multi-gradient Permutation Survival Analysis" to identify genes that are robustly associated with prognosis ("GEARs") using tumour expression data from 15 cancer types available in the TCGA. The resulting lists of GEARs are then interrogated for biological insights using a range of techniques including connectivity and gene enrichment analysis.

      I reviewed this paper primarily from a statistical perspective. Evidently, an impressive amount of work has been conducted, and concisely summarised, and great effort has been undertaken to add layers of insight to the findings. I am no stranger to what an undertaking this would have been. My primary concern, however, is that the novel statistical procedure proposed, and applied to identify the gene lists, as far as I can tell offers no statistical error control or quantification. Consequently, we have no sense of what proportion of the highlighted GEAR genes and networks are likely to just be noise.

      Major comments:

      (1) The main methodology used to identify the GEAR genes, "Multi-gradient Permutation Survival Analysis" does not formally account for multiple testing and offers no formal error control. Meaning we are left with no understanding of what the family-wise (aka type 1) error rate is among the GEAR lists, nor the false discovery rate. I would generally recommend against the use of any feature selection methodology that does not provide some form of error quantification and/or control because otherwise we do not know if we are encouraging our colleagues and/or readers to put resources into lists of genes that contain more noise than not. There are numerous statistical techniques available these days that offer error control, including for lists of p-values from arbitrary sets of tests (see expansion on this and some review references below).

      Thank you for your thoughtful and important comment! We fully agree that controlling type I error is critical when identifying gene sets for downstream interpretation or validation. As an exploratory study, our primary aim was to define and screen for GEARs by using the MEMORY framework; however, we acknowledge that the current implementation of MEMORY does not include a formal procedure for error control. Given that MEMORY relies on repeated sampling and counts the frequency of statistically significant p-values, applying standard p-value–based multiple-testing corrections at the individual test level would not meaningfully reduce the false-positive rate in this framework.

      We believe that error control should instead be applied at the level of the final GEAR catalogue. However, we also recognize that conventional correction methods are not directly applicable. In future versions of MEMORY, we plan to incorporate a dedicated and statistically appropriate false-positive control module tailored specifically to the aggregated outputs of the pipeline. We have clarified this point explicitly in the revised manuscript. (Lines 350-359)

      (2) Similarly, no formal significance measure was used to determine which of the strongest "SAS" connections to include as edges in the "Core Survival Network".

      We agree that the edges in the Core Survival Network (CSN) were selected based on the top-ranked SAS values rather than formal statistical thresholds. This was a deliberate design choice, as the CSN was intended as a heuristic similarity network to prioritize genes for downstream molecular classification and biological exploration, not for formal inference. To address potential concerns, we have clarified this intent in the revised manuscript, and we now explicitly state that the network construction was based on empirical ranking rather than statistical significance (Lines 422-425).

      (3) There is, as far as I could tell, no validation of any identified gene lists using an independent dataset external to the presently analysed TCGA data.

      Thank you for the comment. We acknowledge that no independent external dataset was used in the present study to validate the GEARs lists. However, the primary aim of this work was to systematically identify and characterize genes with robust prognostic associations across cancer types using the MEMORY framework. To assess the biological relevance of the resulting GEARs, we conducted extensive downstream analyses including functional enrichment, mutation profiling, immune infiltration comparison, and drug-response correlation. These analyses were performed across multiple cancer types and further supported by a wide range of published literature.

      We believe that this combination of functional characterization and literature validation provides strong initial support for the robustness and relevance of the GEARs lists. Nonetheless, we agree that validation in independent datasets is an important next step, and we plan to carry this out in future work to further strengthen the clinical application of MEMORY.

      (4) There are quite a few places in the methods section where descriptions were not clear (e.g. elements of matrices referred to without defining what the columns and rows are), and I think it would be quite challenging to re-produce some aspects of the procedures as currently described (more detailed notes below).

      We apologize for the confusion. In the revised manuscript, we have provided a clearer and more detailed description of the computational workflow of MEMORY to improve clarity and reproducibility.

      (5) There is a general lack of statistical inference offered. For example, throughout the gene enrichment section of the results, I never saw it stated whether the pathways highlighted are enriched to a significant degree or not.

      We apologize for not clearly stating this information in the original manuscript. In the revised manuscript, we have updated the figure legend to explicitly report the statistical significance of the enriched pathways (Line 870, 877, 879-880).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Overall, the paper reads well but there are numerous small grammatical errors that at times cost me non-trivial amounts of time to understand the authors' key messages.

      We apologize for the grammatical errors that hindered clarity. In response, we have thoroughly revised the manuscript for grammar, spelling, and overall language quality.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Major comments:

      (1) Line 427: survival analysis similarity (SAS) definition. Any reference on this definition and why it is defined this way? Can the SAS value be negative? Based on line 429 definition, if A and B are exactly the same, SAS ~ 1; completely opposite, SAS =0; otherwise, SAS could be any value, positive or negative. So it is hard to tell what SAS is measuring. It is important to make sure SAS can measure the similarity in a systematic and consistent way since it is used as input in the following network analysis.

      We apologize for the confusion caused by the ambiguity in the original SAS formula. The SAS metric was inspired by the Jaccard index, but we modified the denominator to increase contrast between gene pairs. Specifically, the numerator counts the number of permutations in which both genes are simultaneously significant (i.e., both equal to 1), while the denominator is the sum of the total number of significant events for each gene minus twice the shared significant count. An additional +1 term was included in the denominator to avoid division by zero. This formulation ensures that SAS is always non-negative and bounded between 0 and 1, with higher values indicating greater similarity. We have clarified this definition and updated the formula in the revised manuscript (Lines 405-425). 

      (2) For the method with high dimensional data, multiplicity adjustment needs to be discussed, but it is missing in the manuscript. A 5% p-value cutoff was used across the paper, which seems to be too liberal in this type of analysis. The suggestion is to either use a lower cutoff value or use False Discovery Rate (FDR) control methods for such adjustment. This will reduce the length of the gene list and may help with a more focused discussion.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion regarding multiplicity. MEMORY is intentionally positioned as an exploratory screen: each gene is tested across 10 sampling gradients and 1,000 resamples, and only its reproducibility probability (𝐴<sub>𝑖𝑗</sub>) is retained. Because this metric is an aggregate of 1,000 “votes” the influence of any single unadjusted P-value is already strongly diluted; adding a per-iteration BH/FDR step therefore has negligible impact on the reproducibility ranking that drives all downstream analyses.

      That said, we recognize that a clinically actionable GEARs catalogue must undergo formal, large-scale multipletesting correction. Future releases of MEMORY will incorporate an error control module applied to the consolidated GEAR list before any translational use. We have now added a statement to this effect in the revised manuscript (Lines 350-359).

      (3) To allow reproducibility from others, please include as many details as possible (software, parameters, modules etc.) for the analyses performed in different steps.

      All source codes are now publically available on GitHub. We have also added the GitHub address in the section Online Content.

      Minor comments or queries:

      (4) The manuscript needs to be polished to fix grammar, incomplete sentences, and missing figures.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have thoroughly proofread the manuscript to correct grammar, complete any unfinished sentences, and restore or renumber all missing figure panels. All figures are now properly referenced in the text.

      (5) Line 131: "survival probability of certain genes" seems to be miss-leading. Are you talking about its probability of associating with survival (or prognosis)?

      Sorry for the oversight. What we mean is the probability that a gene is found to be significantly associated with survival across the 1,000 resamples. We have revised the statement to “significant probability of certain genes” (Line 102).

      (6) Lines 132, 133: "remained consistent": the score just needs to stay > 0.8 as the sample increases, or the score needs to be monotonously non-decreasing?

      We mean the score stay above 0.8. We understand “remained consistent” is confusing and now revised it to “remained above 0.8”.

      (7) Lines 168-170 how can supplementary figure 5A-K show "a certain degree of correlation with cancer stages"?

      Sorry for the confusion! We have now revised Supplementary Figure 5A–K to support the visual impression with formal statistics. For each cancer type, we built a contingency table of AJCC stage (I–IV) versus hub-gene subgroup (Low, Mid, High) and applied Pearson’s 𝑥<sup>2</sup> test (Monte-Carlo approximation, 10⁵ replicates when any expected cell count < 5). The 𝑥<sup>2</sup> statistic and p-value are printed beneath every panel; eight of the eleven cancers show a significant association (p-value < 0.05), while LUSC, THCA and PAAD do not.We have replaced the vague phrase “a certain degree of correlation” with this explicit statistical statement in the revised manuscript (Lines 141-143).

      (8) Lines 172-174: since the hub genes are a subset of GEAR genes through CSN construction, it is not a surprise of the consistency. any explanation about PAAD that is shown only in GOEA with GEARs but not with hub genes?

      Thanks for raising this interesting point! In PAAD the Core Survival Network is unusually diffuse: the top-ranked SAS edges are distributed broadly rather than converging on a single dense module. Because of this flat topology, the ten highest-degree nodes (our hub set) do not form a tightly interconnected cluster, nor are they collectively enriched in the mitosis-related pathway that dominates the full GEAR list. This might explain that the mitotic enrichment is evident when all PAAD GEARs were analyzed but not when the analysis is confined to the far smaller—and more functionally dispersed—hub-gene subset.

      (9) Lines 191: how the classification was performed? Tool? Cutoff values etc?

      The hub-gene-based molecular classification was performed in R using hierarchical clustering. Briefly, we extracted the 𝑙𝑜𝑔<sub>2</sub>(𝑇𝑃𝑀 +1) expression matrix of hub genes, computed Euclidean distances between samples, and applied Ward’s minimum variance method (hclust, method = "ward.D2"). The resulting dendrogram was then divided into three groups (cutree, k = 3), corresponding to low, mid, and high expression classes. These parameters were selected based on visual inspection of clustering structure across cancer types. We have added this information to the revised ‘Methods’ section (Lines 439-443).

      (10) Lines 210-212: any statistics to support the conclusion? The bar chat of Figure 3B seems to support that all mutations favor ML & MM.

      We agree that formal statistical support is important for interpreting groupwise comparisons. In this case, however, several of the driver events, such as ROS1 and ERBB2, had very small subgroup counts, which violate the assumptions of Pearson’s 𝑥<sup>2</sup> test. While we explored 𝑥<sup>2</sup> and Fisher’s exact tests, the results were unstable due to sparse counts. Therefore, we chose to present these distributions descriptively to illustrate the observed subtype preferences across different driver mutations (Figure 3B). We have revised the manuscript text to clarify this point (Lines 182-188).

      (11) Line 216: should supplementary Figure 6H-J be "6H-I"?

      We apologize for the mistake. We have corrected it in the revised manuscript.

      (12) Line 224: incomplete sentence starting with "To further the functional... ".

      Thanks! We have made the revision and it states now “To further expore the functional implications of these mutations, we enriched them using a pathway system called Nested Systems in Tumors (NeST)”.

      (13) Lines 261-263: it is better to report the median instead of the mean. Use log scale data for analysis or use non-parametric methods due to the long tail of the data.

      Thank you for the very helpful suggestion. In the revised manuscript, we now report the median instead of the mean to better reflect the distribution of the data. In addition, we have applied log-scale transformation where appropriate and replaced the original statistical tests with non-parametric Wilcoxon ranksum tests to account for the long-tailed distribution. These changes have been implemented in both the main text and figure legends (Lines 234–237, Figure 5F).

      (14) Line 430: why based on the first sampling gradient, i.e. k_1 instead of the k_j selected? Or do you mean k_j here?

      Thanks for this question! We deliberately based SAS on the vectors from the first sampling gradient ( 𝑘<sub>1</sub>, ≈ 10 % of the cohort). At this smallest sample size, the binary significance patterns still contain substantial variation, and many genes are not significant in every permutation. Based on this, we think the measure can meaningfully identify gene pairs that behave concordantly throughout the gradient permutation. 

      We have now added a sentence to clarify this in the Methods section (Lines 398–403).

      (15) Need clarification on how the significant survival network was built.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have now provided a more detailed clarification of how the Survival-Analysis Similarity (SAS) metric was defined and applied in constructing the core survival network (CSN), including the rationale for key parameter choices (Lines 409–430). Additionally, we have made full source code publicly available on GitHub to facilitate transparency and reproducibility (https://github.com/XinleiCai/MEMORY).

      (16) Line 433: what defines the "significant genes" here? Are they the same as GEAR genes? And what are total genes, all the genes?

      We apologize for the inconsistency in terminology, which may have caused confusion. In this context,

      “significant genes” refers specifically to the GEARs (Genes Steadily Associated with Prognosis). The SAS values were calculated between each GEAR and all genes. We have revised the manuscript to clarify this by consistently using the term “GEARs” throughout.

      (17) Line 433: more detail on how SAS values were used will be helpful. For example, were pairwise SAS values fed into Cytoscape as an additional data attribute (on top of what is available in TCGA) or as the only data attribute for network building?

      The SAS values were used as the sole metric for defining connections (edges) between genes in the construction of the core survival network (CSN). Specifically, we calculated pairwise SAS values between each GEAR and all other genes, then selected the top 1,000 gene pairs with the highest SAS scores to construct the network. No additional data attributes from TCGA (such as expression levels or clinical features) were used in this step. These selected pairs were imported into Cytoscape solely based on their SAS values to visualize the CSN.

      (18) Line 434: what is "ranking" here, by degree? Is it the same as "nodes with top 10 degrees" at line 436?

      The “ranking” refers specifically to the SAS values between gene pairs. The top 1,000 ranked SAS values were selected to define the edges used in constructing the Core Survival Network (CSN).

      Once the CSN was built, we calculated the degree (number of connections) for each node (i.e., each gene). The

      “top 10 degrees” mentioned on Line 421 refers to the 10 genes with the highest node degrees in the CSN. These were designated as hub genes for downstream analyses.

      We have clarified this distinction in the revised manuscript (Line 398-403).

      (19) Line 435: was the network built in Cytoscape? Or built with other tool first and then visualized in Cytoscape?

      The network was constructed in R by selecting the top 1,000 gene pairs with the highest SAS values to define the edges. This edge list was then imported into Cytoscape solely for visualization purposes. No network construction or filtering was performed within Cytoscape itself. We have clarified this in the revised ‘Methods’ section (Lines 424-425).

      (20) Line 436: the degree of each note was calculated, what does it mean by "degree" here and is it the same as the number of edges? How does it link to the "higher ranked edges" in Line 165?

      The “degree” of a node refers to the number of edges connected to that node—a standard metric in graph theory used to quantify a node’s centrality or connectivity in the network. It is equivalent to the number of edges a gene shares with others in the CSN.

      The “higher-ranked edges” refer to the top 1,000 gene pairs with the highest SAS values, which we used to construct the Core Survival Network (CSN). The degree for each node was computed within this fixed network, and the top 10 nodes with the highest degree were selected as hub genes. Therefore, the node degree is largely determined by this pre-defined edge set.

      (21) Line 439: does it mean only 1000 SAS values were used or SAS values from 1000 genes, which should come up with 1000 choose 2 pairs (~ half million SAS values).

      We computed the SAS values between each GEAR gene and all other genes, resulting in a large number of pairwise similarity scores. Among these, we selected the top 1,000 gene pairs with the highest SAS values—regardless of how many unique genes were involved—to define the edges in the Core Survival Network (CSN). In another words, the network is constructed from the top 1,000 SAS-ranked gene pairs, not from all possible combinations among 1,000 genes (which would result in nearly half a million pairs). This approach yields a sparse network focused on the strongest co-prognostic relationships.

      We have clarified this in the revised ‘Methods’ section (Lines 409–430).

      (22) Line 496: what tool is used and what are the parameters set for hierarchical clustering if someone would like to reproduce the result?

      The hierarchical clustering was performed in R using the hclust function with Ward's minimum variance method (method = "ward.D2"), based on Euclidean distance computed from the log-transformed expression matrix (𝑙𝑜𝑔<sub>2</sub>(𝑇𝑃𝑀 +1)). Cluster assignment was done using the cutree function with k = 3 to define low, mid, and high expression subgroups. These settings have now been explicitly stated in the revised ‘Methods’ section (Lines 439–443) to facilitate reproducibility.

      (23) Lines 901-909: Figure 4 missing panel C. Current panel C seems to be the panel D in the description.

      Sorry for the oversights and we have now made the correction (Line 893).

      (24) Lines 920-928: Figure 6C: considering a higher bar to define "significant".

      We agree that applying a more stringent cutoff (e.g., p < 0.01) may reduce potential false positives. However, given the exploratory nature of this study, we believe the current threshold remains appropriate for the purpose of hypothesis generation.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The title says the genes that are "steadily" associated are identified, but what you mean by the word "steadily" is not defined in the manuscript. Perhaps this could mean that they are consistently associated in different analyses, but multiple analyses are not compared.

      In our manuscript, “steadily associated” refers to genes that consistently show significant associations with patient prognosis across multiple sample sizes and repeated resampling within the MEMORY framework (Lines 65–66). Specifically, each gene is evaluated across 10 sampling gradients (from ~10% to 100% of the cohort) with 1,000 permutations at each level. A gene is defined as a GEAR if its probability of being significantly associated with survival remains ≥ 0.8 throughout the whole permutation process. This stability in signal under extensive resampling is what we refer to as “steadily associated.”

      (2) I think the word "gradient" is not appropriately used as it usually indicates a slope or a rate of change. It seems to indicate a step in the algorithm associated with a sampling proportion.

      Thank you for pointing out the potential ambiguity in our use of the term “gradient.” In our study, we used “gradient” to refer to stepwise increases in the sample proportion used for resampling and analysis. We have now revised it to “progressive”.

      (3) Make it clear that the name "GEARs" is introduced in this publication.

      Done.

      (4) Sometimes the document is hard to understand, for example, the sentence, "As the number of samples increases, the survival probability of certain genes gradually approaches 1." It does not appear to be calculating "gene survival probability" but rather a gene's association with patient survival. Or is it that as the algorithm progresses genes are discarded and therefore do have a survival probability? It is not clear.

      What we intended to describe is the probability that a gene is judged significant in the 1,000 resamples at a given sample-size step, that is, its reproducibility probability in the MEMORY framework. We have now revised the description (Lines 101-104).

      (5) The article lacks significant details, like the type of test used to generate p-values. I assume it is the log-rank test from the R survival package. This should be explicitly stated. It is not clear why the survminer R package is required or what function it has. Are the p-values corrected for multiple hypothesis testing at each sampling?

      We apologize for the lack of details. In each sampling iteration, we used the log-rank test (implemented via the survdiff function in the R survival package) to evaluate the prognostic association of individual genes. This information has now been explicitly added to the revised manuscript.

      The survminer package was originally included for visualization purposes, such as plotting illustrative Kaplan– Meier curves. However, since it did not contribute to the core statistical analysis, we have now removed this package from the Methods section to avoid confusion (Lines 386-407).

      As for multiple-testing correction, we did not adjust p-values in each iteration, because the final selection of GEARs is based on the frequency with which a gene is found significant across 1,000 resamples (i.e., its reproducibility probability). Classical FDR corrections at the per-sample level do not meaningfully affect this aggregate metric. That said, we fully acknowledge the importance of multiple-testing control for the final GEARs catalogue. Future versions of the MEMORY framework will incorporate appropriate adjustment procedures at that stage.

      (6) It is not clear what the survival metric is. Is it overall survival (OS) or progression-free survival (PFS), which would be common choices?

      It’s overall survival (OS).

      (7) The treatment of the patients is never considered, nor whether the sequencing was performed pre or posttreatment. The patient's survival will be impacted by the treatment that they receive, and many other factors like commodities, not just the genomics.

      We initially thought there exist no genes significantly associated with patient survival (GEARs) without counting so many different influential factors. This is exactly what motivated us to invent the

      MEMORY. However, this work proves “we were wrong”, and it demonstrates the real power of GEARs in determining patient survival. Of course, we totally agree with the reviewer that incorporating therapy variables and other clinical covariates will further improve the power of MEMORY analyses.

      (8) As a paper that introduces a new analysis method, it should contain some comparison with existing state of the art, or perhaps randomised data.

      Our understanding is --- the MEMORY presents as an exploratory and proof-of-concept framework. Comparison with regular survival analyses seems not reasonable. We have added some discussion in revised manuscript (Lines 350-359).

      (9) In the discussion it reads, "it remains uncertain whether there exists a set of genes steadily associated with cancer prognosis, regardless of sample size and other factors." Of course, there are many other factors that may alter the consistency of important cancer genes, but sample size is not one of them. Sample size merely determines whether your study has sufficient power to detect certain gene effects, it does not effect whether genes are steadily associated with cancer prognosis in different analyses. (Of course, this does depend on what you mean by "steadily".)

      We totally agree with reviewer that sample size itself does not alter a gene’s biological association with prognosis; it only affects the statistical power to detect that association. Because this study is exploratory and we were initially uncertain whether GEARs existed, we first examined the impact of sample-size variation—a dominant yet experimentally tractable source of heterogeneity—before considering other, less controllable factors.

      Reviewer #4 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Other more detailed comments:

      (1) Introduction

      L93: When listing reasons why genes do not replicate across different cohorts / datasets, there is also the simple fact that some could be false positives

      We totally agree that some genes may simply represent false-positive findings apart from biological heterogeneity and technical differences between cohorts. Although the MEMORY framework reduces this risk by requiring high reproducibility across 1,000 resamples and multiple sample-size tiers, it cannot eliminate false positives completely. We have added some discussion and explicitly note that external validation in independent datasets is essential for confirming any GEAR before clinical application.

      (2) Results Section

      L143: Language like "We also identified the most significant GEARs in individual cancer types" I think is potentially misleading since the "GEAR" lists do not have formal statistical significance attached.

      We removed “significant” ad revised it to “top 1” (Line 115).

      L153 onward: The pathway analysis results reported do not include any measures of how statistically significant the enrichment was.

      We have now updated the figure legends to clearly indicate that the displayed pathways represent the top significantly enriched results based on adjusted p-values from GO enrichment analyses (Lines 876-878).

      L168: "A certain degree of correlation with cancer stages (TNM stages) is observed in most cancer types except for COAD, LUSC and PRAD". For statements like this statistical significance should be mentioned in the same sentence or, if these correlations failed to reach significance, that should be explicitly stated.

      In the revised Supplementary Figure 5A–K, we now accompany the visual trends with formal statistical testing. Specifically, for each cancer type, we constructed a contingency table of AJCC stage (I–IV) versus hub-gene subgroup (Low, Mid, High) and applied Pearson’s 𝑥<sup>2</sup> test (using Monte Carlo approximation with 10⁵ replicates if any expected cell count was < 5). The resulting 𝑥<sup>2</sup> statistic and p-value are printed beneath each panel. Of the eleven cancer types analyzed, eight showed statistically significant associations (p < 0.05), while COAD, LUSC, and PRAD did not. Accordingly, we have make the revision in the manuscript (Line 137139).

      L171-176: When mentioning which pathways are enriched among the gene lists, please clarify whether these levels of enrichment are statistically significant or not. If the enrichment is significant, please indicate to what degree, and if not I would not mention.

      We agree that the statistical significance of pathway enrichment should be clearly stated and made the revision throughout the manuscript (Line 869, 875, 877).

      (3) Methods Section

      L406 - 418: I did not really understand, nor see it explained, what is the motivation and value of cycling through 10%, 20% bootstrapped proportions of patients in the "gradient" approach? I did not see this justified, or motivated by any pre-existing statistical methodology/results. I do not follow the benefit compared to just doing one analysis of all available samples, and using the statistical inference we get "for free" from the survival analysis p-values to quantify sampling uncertainty.

      The ten step-wise sample fractions (10 % to 100 %) allow us to transform each gene’s single log-rank P-value into a reproducibility probability: at every fraction we repeat the test 1,000 times and record the proportion of permutations in which the gene is significant. This learning-curve-style resampling not only quantifies how consistently a gene associates with survival under different power conditions but also produces the 0/1 vectors required to compute Survival-Analysis Similarity (SAS) and build the Core Survival Network. A single one-off analysis on the full cohort would yield only one P-value per gene, providing no binary vectors at all—hence no basis for calculating SAS or constructing the network. 

      L417: I assume p < 0.05 in the survival analysis means the nominal p-value, unadjusted for multiple testing. Since we are in the context of many tests please explicitly state if so.

      Yes, p < 0.05 refers to the nominal, unadjusted p-value from each log-rank test within a single permutation. In MEMORY these raw p-values are converted immediately into 0/1 “votes” and aggregated over 1 000 permutations and ten sample-size tiers; only the resulting reproducibility probability (𝐴<sub>𝑖𝑗</sub>) is carried forward. No multiple-testing adjustment is applied at the individual-test level, because a per-iteration FDR or BH step would not materially affect the final 𝐴<sub>𝑖𝑗</sub> ranking. We have revised the manuscript (Line 396)

      L419-426: I did not see defined what the rows are and what the columns are in the "significant-probability matrix". Are rows genes, columns cancer types? Consequently I was not really sure what actually makes a "GEAR". Is it achieving a significance probability of 0.8 across all 15 cancer subtypes? Or in just one of the tumour datasets?

      In the significant-probability matrix, each row represents a gene, and each column corresponds to a sampling gradient (i.e., increasing sample-size tiers from ~10% to 100%) within a single cancer type. The matrix is constructed independently for each cancer.

      GEAR is defined as achieving a significance probability of 0.8 within a single tumor type. Not need to achieve significance probability across all 15 cancer subtypes.

      L426: The significance probability threshold of 0.8 across 1,000 bootstrapped nominal tests --- used to define the GEAR lists --- has, as far as I can tell, no formal justification. Conceptually, the "significance probability" reflects uncertainty in the patients being used (if I follow their procedure correctly), but as mentioned above, a classical p-value is also designed to reflect sampling uncertainty. So why use the bootstrapping at all?

      Moreover, the 0.8 threshold is applied on a per-gene basis, so there is no apparent procedure "built in" to adapt to (and account for) different total numbers of genes being tested. Can the authors quantify the false discovery rate associated with this GEAR selection procedure e.g. by running for data with permuted outcome labels? And why do the gradient / bootstrapping at all --- why not just run the nominal survival p-values through a simple Benjamini-Hochberg procedure, and then apply and FDR threshold to define the GEAR lists? Then you would have both multiplicity and error control for the final lists. As it stands, with no form of error control or quantification of noise rates in the GEAR lists I would not recommend promoting their use. There is a long history of variable selection techniques, and various options the authors could have used that would have provided formal error rates for the final GEAR lists (see seminal reviews by eg Heinze et al 2018 Biometrical

      Journal, or O'Hara and Sillanpaa, 2009, Bayesian Analysis), including, as I say, simple application of a Benjamini-Hochberg to achive multiplicity adjusted FDR control.

      Thank you. We chose the 10 × 1,000 resampling scheme to ask a different question from a single Benjamini–Hochberg scan: does a gene keep re-appearing as significant when cohort composition and statistical power vary from 10 % to 100 % of the data? Converting the 1,000 nominal p-values at each sample fraction into a reproducibility probability 𝐴<sub>𝑖𝑗</sub> allows us to screen for signals that are stable across wide sampling uncertainty rather than relying on one pass through the full cohort. The 0.8 cut-off is an intentionally strict, empirically accepted robustness threshold (analogous to stability-selection); under the global null the chance of exceeding it in 1,000 draws is effectively zero, so the procedure is already highly conservative even before any gene-wise multiplicity correction [1]. Once MEMORY moves beyond this exploratory stage and a final, clinically actionable GEAR catalogue is required, we will add a formal FDR layer after the robustness screen, but for the present proof-of-concept study, we retain the resampling step specifically to capture stability rather than to serve as definitive error control.

      L427-433: I gathered that SAS reflects, for a particular pair of genes, how likely they are to be jointly significant across bootstraps. If so, perhaps this description or similar could be added since I found a "conceptual" description lacking which would have helped when reading through the maths. Does it make sense to also reflect joint significance across multiple cancer types in the SAS? Or did I miss it and this is already reflected?

      SAS is indeed meant to quantify, within a single cancer type, how consistently two genes are jointly significant across the 1,000 bootstrap resamples performed at a given sample-size tier. In another words, SAS is the empirical probability that the two genes “co-light-up” in the same permutation, providing a measure of shared prognostic behavior beyond what either gene shows alone. We have added this plain language description to the ‘Methods’ (Lines 405-418).

      In the current implementation SAS is calculated separately for each cancer type; it does not aggregate cosignificance across different cancers. Extending SAS to capture joint reproducibility across multiple tumor types is an interesting idea, especially for identifying pan-cancer gene pairs, and we note this as a potential future enhancement of the MEMORY pipeline.

      L432: "The SAS of significant genes with total genes was calculated, and the significant survival network was constructed" Are the "significant genes" the "GEAR" list extracted above according to the 0.8 threshold? If so, and this is a bit pedantic, I do not think they should be referred to as "significant genes" and that this phrase should be reserved for formal statistical significance.

      We have replaced “significant genes” with “GEAR genes” to avoid any confusion (Lines 421-422).

      L434: "some SAS values at the top of the rankings were extracted, and the SAS was visualized to a network by Cytoscape. The network was named core survival network (CSN)". I did not see it explicitly stated which nodes actually go into the CSN. The entire GEAR list? What threshold is applied to SAS values in order to determine which edges to include? How was that threshold chosen? Was it data driven? For readers not familiar with what Cytoscape is and how it works could you offer more of an explanation in-text please? I gather it is simply a piece of network visualisation/wrangling software and does not annotate additional information (e.g. external experimental data), which I think is an important point to clarify in the article without needing to look up the reference.

      We have now clarified these points in the revised ‘Methods’ section, including how the SAS threshold was selected and which nodes were included in the Core Survival Network (CSN). Specifically, the CSN was constructed using the top 1,000 gene pairs with the highest SAS values. This threshold was not determined by a fixed numerical cutoff, but rather chosen empirically after comparing networks built with varying numbers of edges (250, 500, 1,000, 2,000, 6,000, and 8,000; see Reviewer-only Figure 1). We observed that, while increasing the number of edges led to denser networks, the set of hub genes remained largely stable. Therefore, we selected 1,000 edges as a balanced compromise between capturing sufficient biological information and maintaining computational efficiency and interpretability.

      The resulting node list (i.e., the genes present in those top-ranked pairs) is provided in Supplementary Table 4. Cytoscape was used solely as a network visualization platform, and no external annotations or experimental data were added at this stage. We have added a brief clarification in the main text to help readers understand.

      L437: "The effect of molecular classification by hub genes is indicated that 1000 to 2000 was a range that the result of molecular classification was best." Can you clarify how "best" is assessed here, i.e. by what metric and with which data?

      We apologize for the confusion. Upon constructing the network, we observed that the number of edges affected both the selection of hub genes and the computational complexity. We analyzed the networks with 250, 500, 1,000, 2,000, 6,000 and 8,000 edges, and found that the differences in selected hub genes were small (Author response image 1). Although the networks with fewer edges had lower computational complexity, the choice of 1000 edges was a compromise to the balance between sufficient biological information and manageable computational complexity. Thus, we chose the network with 1,000 edges as it offered a practical balance between computational efficiency and the biological relevance of the hub genes.

      Author response image 1.

      The intersection of the network constructed by various number of edges.

      References

      (1) Gebski, V., Garès, V., Gibbs, E. & Byth, K. Data maturity and follow-up in time-to-event analyses.International Journal of Epidemiology 47, 850–859 (2018).

    1. eLife Assessment

      Davies et al. present a valuable study proposing that Shot can act as a molecular linker between microtubules and actin during dendrite pruning, suggesting an intriguing role in non-centrosomal microtubule organization. However, the experimental evidence is incomplete and does not robustly support these claims, and the lack of a cohesive model connecting the findings weakens the overall impact. While the data suggest that Shot, actin, and microtubule nucleation contribute to dendritic pruning, their precise interplay remains unresolved.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The Neuronal microtubule cytoskeleton is essential long long-range transport in axons and dendrites. The axon-specific plus-end out microtubule organization vs the dendritic-specific plus-end in organization allows for selective transport into each neurite, setting up neuronal polarity. In addition, the dendritic microtubule organization is thought to be important for dendritic pruning in Drosophila during metamorphosis. However, the precise mechanisms that organize microtubules in neurons are still incompletely understood.

      In the current manuscript, the authors describe the spectraplakin protein Shot as important in developmental dendritic pruning. They find that Shot has dendritic microtubule polarity defects, which, based on their rescues and previous work, is likely the reason for the pruning defect.

      Since Shot is a known actin-microtubule crosslinker, they also investigate the putative role of actin and find that actin is also important for dendritic pruning. Finally, they find that several factors that have been shown to function as a dendritic MTOC in C. elegans also show a defect in Drosophila upon depletion.

      Strengths:

      Overall, this work was technically well-performed, using advanced genetics and imaging. The author reports some interesting findings identifying new players for dendritic microtubule organization and pruning.

      Weaknesses:

      The evidence for Shot interacting with actin for its functioning is contradictory. The Shot lacking the actin interaction domain did not rescue the mutant; however, it also has a strong toxic effect upon overexpression in wildtype (Figure S3), so a potential rescue may be masked. Moreover, the C-terminus-only construct, which carries the GAS2-like domain, was sufficient to rescue the pruning. This actually suggests that MT bundling/stabilization is the main function of Shot (and no actin binding is needed). On the other hand, actin depolymerization leads to some microtubule defects and subtle changes in shot localization in young neurons (not old ones). More importantly, it did not enhance the microtubule or pruning defects of the Shot domain, suggesting these act in the same pathway. Interesting to note is that Mical expression led to microtubule defects but not to pruning defects. This argues that MT organization effects alone are not enough to cause pruning defects. This may be be good to discuss. For the actin depolymerization, the authors used overexpression of the actin-oxidizing Mical protein. However, Mical may have another target. It would be good to validate key findings with better characterized actin targeting tools.

      In analogy to C. elegans, where RAB-11 functions as a ncMTOC to set up microtubules in dendrites, the authors investigated the role of these in Drosophila. Interestingly, they find that rab-11 also colocalizes to gamma tubulin and its depletion leads to some microtubule defects. Furthermore, they find a genetic interaction between these components and Shot; however, this does not prove that these components act together (if at all, it would be the opposite). This should be made more clear. What would be needed to connect these is to address RAB-11 localization + gamma-tubulin upon shot depletion.

      All components studied in this manuscript lead to a partial reversal of microtubules in the dendrite. However, it is not clear from how the data is represented if the microtubule defect is subtle in all animals or whether it is partially penetrant stronger effect (a few animals/neurons have a strong phenotype). This is relevant as this may suggest that other mechanisms are also required for this organization, and it would make it markedly different from C. elegans. This should be discussed and potentially represented differently.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In their manuscript, the authors reveal that the spectraplakin Shot, which can bind both microtubules and actin, is essential for the proper pruning of dendrites in a developing Drosophila model. A molecular basis for the coordination of these two cytoskeletons during neuronal development has been elusive, and the authors' data point to the role of Shot in regulating microtubule polarity and growth through one of its actin-binding domains. The authors also propose an intriguing new activity for a spectraplakin: functioning as part of a microtubule-organizing center (MTOC).

      Strengths:

      (1) A strength of the manuscript is the authors' data supporting the idea that Shot regulates dendrite pruning via its actin-binding CH1 domain and that this domain is also implicated in Shot's ability to regulate microtubule polarity and growth (although see comments below); these data are consistent with the authors' model that Shot acts through both the actin and microtubule cytoskeletons to regulate neuronal development.

      (2) Another strength of the manuscript is the data in support of Rab11 functioning as an MTOC in young larvae but not older larvae; this is an important finding that may resolve some debates in the literature. The finding that Rab11 and Msps coimmunoprecipitate is nice evidence in support of the idea that Rab11(+) endosomes serve as MTOCs.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) A significant, major concern is that most of the authors' main conclusions are not (well) supported, in particular, the model that Shot functions as part of an MTOC. The story has many interesting components, but lacks the experimental depth to support the authors' claims.

      (2) One of the authors' central claims is that Shot functions as part of a non-centrosomal MTOC, presumably a MTOC anchored on Rab11(+) endosomes. For example, in the Introduction, last paragraph, the authors summarize their model: "Shot localizes to dendrite tips in an actin-dependent manner where it recruits factors cooperating with an early-acting, Rab11-dependent MTOC." This statement is not supported. The authors do not show any data that Shot localizes with Rab11 or that Rab11 localization or its MTOC activity is affected by the loss of Shot (or otherwise manipulating Shot). A genetic interaction between Shot and Rab11 is not sufficient to support this claim, which relies on the proteins functioning together at a certain place and time. On a related note, the claim that Shot localization to dendrite tips is actin-dependent is not well supported: the authors show that the CH1 domain is needed to enrich Shot at dendrite tips, but they do not directly manipulate actin (it would be helpful if the authors showed the overexpression of Mical disrupted actin, as they predict).

      (3) The authors show an image that Shot colocalizes with the EB1-mScarlet3 comet initiation sites and use this representative image to generate a model that Shot functions as part of an MTOC. However, this conclusion needs additional support: the authors should quantify the frequency of EB1 comets that originate from Shot-GFP aggregates, report the orientation of EB1 comets that originate from Shot-GFP aggregates (e.g., do the Shot-GFP aggregates correlate with anterogradely or retrogradely moving EB1 comets), and characterize the developmental timing of these events. The genetic interaction tests revealing ability of shot dsRNA to enhance the loss of microtubule-interacting proteins (Msps, Patronin, EB1) and Rab11 are consistent with the idea that Shot regulates microtubules, but it does not provide any spatial information on where Shot is interacting with these proteins, which is critical to the model that Shot is acting as part of a dendritic MTOC.

      (4) It is unclear whether the authors are proposing that dendrite pruning defects are due to an early function of Shot in regulating microtubule polarity in young neurons (during 1st instar larval stages) or whether Shot is acting in another way to affect dendrite pruning. It would be helpful for the authors to present and discuss a specific model regarding Shot's regulation of dendrite pruning in the Discussion.

      (5) The authors argue that a change in microtubule polarity contributes to dendrite pruning defects. For example, in the Introduction, last paragraph, the authors state: "Loss of Shot causes pruning defects caused by mixed orientation of dendritic microtubules." The authors show a correlative relationship, not a causal one. In Figure 4, C and E, the authors show that overexpression of Mical disrupts microtubule polarity but not dendrite pruning, raising the question of whether disrupting microtubule polarity is sufficient to cause dendrite pruning defects. The lack of an association between a disruption in microtubule polarity and dendrite pruning in neurons overexpressing Mical is an important finding.

      (6) The authors show that a truncated Shot construct with the microtubule-binding domain, but no actin-binding domain (Shot-C-term), can rescue dendrite pruning defects and Khc-lacZ localization, whereas the longer Shot construct that lacks just one actin-binding domain ("delta-CH1") cannot. Have the authors confirmed that both proteins are expressed at equivalent levels? Based on these results and their finding that over-expression of Shot-delta-CH1 disrupts dendrite pruning, it seems possible that Shot-delta-CH1 may function as a dominant-negative rather than a loss-of-function. Regardless, the authors should develop a model that takes into account their findings that Shot, without any actin-binding domains and only a microtubule-binding domain, shows robust rescue.

      (7) The authors state that: "The fact that Shot variants lacking the CH1 domain cannot rescue the pruning defects of shot[3] mutants suggested that dendrite tip localization of Shot was important for its function." (pages 10-11). This statement is not accurate: the Shot C-term construct, which lacks the CH1 domain (as well as other domains), is able to rescue dendrite pruning defects.

      (8) The authors state that: "In further support of non-functionality, overexpression of Shot[deltaCH1] caused strong pruning defects (Fig. S3)." (page 8). Presumably, these results indicate that Shot-delta-CH1 is functioning as a dominant-negative since a loss-of-function protein would have no effect. The authors should revise how they interpret these results. This comment is related to another comment about the ability of Shot constructs to rescue the shot[3] mutant.

    4. Author response:

      We thank the reviewers for their comments. We are paraphrasing their three main criticisms below and provide responses and outlines of how we are going to address them.

      Criticism 1: Actin binding by Shot may not be required for Shot's function in dendritic microtubule organization (Point 1 by Reviewer 1, points 6-8 by reviewer 2).

      This criticism is mainly based on our finding that, while a version of Shot lacking just the high affinity actin binding site cannot rescue the pruning and orientation defects of shot<sup>3</sup> mutants, expression of a construct harboring just the microtubule and EB1 binding sites can. The reviewers also point out that a Shot construct lacking one of its actin binding domains (deltaCH1), causes pruning defects when overexpressed in wild type cells.

      We thank the reviewers for this comment. We concede that we did not properly explain our reasoning and conclusions regarding the role of actin binding in Shot dendritic function. From the literature, there is evidence that Shot fragments containing the C-terminal microtubule binding domain alone have positive effects on neuronal microtubule stability and organization by a gain-of-function mechanism. This is likely due to two reasons: firstly, the activity of these constructs is unrestrained by localization. For example, in axons, full length Shot localizes adjacent to the membrane and to growth cones, while a Shot C-terminal construct (lacking the actin-binding and spectrin-repeat domains) decorates axonal microtubules [1]. Secondly, the actin binding site appears to inhibit microtubule binding by an intramolecular mechanism that is relieved by actin binding [2]. Overexpression of such a construct also dramatically improves axonal microtubule defects in aged neurons [3]. Thus, actin recruitment may locally activate Shot's microtubule binding activity.

      To address this criticism, we will test if other UAS-Shot transgenes lacking the actin binding or microtubule binding domains can rescue the defects of Shot mutants. We will also try to provide more evidence that the C-terminal Shot construct exerts a gain-of-function effect on microtubules. We will adjust our interpretation accordingly.

      Criticism 2: The relationship between reversal of dendritic microtubule orientation and dendrite pruning defects could be correlative rather than causal (paragraph 1 by Reviewer 1, point 5 by reviewer 2).

      This criticism is based on our finding that Mical overexpression causes a partial reversal of dendritic microtubule orientation but no apparent dendrite pruning defects.

      We thank the reviewers for this comment. In fact, knockdown of EB1, which affects dendritic microtubule organisation via kinesin-2 [4], does not cause dendrite pruning defects by itself either, but strongly enhances the pruning defects caused by other microtubule manipulations [5]. This is likely because loss of EB1 destabilizes the dendritic cytoskeleton and thus also promotes dendrite degeneration. All other conditions that cause dendritic microtubule reversal also cause dendrite pruning defects [5 - 9]. As Mical is a known pruning factor [10], its overexpression may actually also destabilize dendrites, e. g., by severing actin filaments. However, we showed in the current manuscript that Mical overexpression causes a partial reversal of dendritic microtubule polarity and strongly enhances the dendrite pruning defects caused by Shot knockdown.

      To address this criticism, we will rephrase the corresponding section of our manuscript and specify that conditions that cause reversal of dendritic microtubule orientation either cause dendrite pruning defects, or act as genetic enhancers of pruning defects caused by other microtubule regulators. This wording better explains the relationship between dendritic microtubule orientation and dendrite pruning and also includes the Mical overexpression condition.

      Criticism 3: The presented data do not prove that Shot, Rab11 and Patronin act in a common pathway to establish dendritic plus end-in microtubule orientation (paragraphs 2-3 by Reviewer 1, point 1-4 by reviewer 2).

      While these factors genetically interact with each other during dendrite pruning, it is not clear whether (1) they colocalize at the tips of growing dendrites during early growth stages; (2) their respective localizations depend on each other; (3) they act at the same developmental stage in microtubule orientation.  

      We thank the reviewers for this comment. For technical reasons (e. g., incompatible transgenes, GAL4 drivers too weak), we could only partially address these questions at the time. We have now expanded our toolkit with additional drivers and fluorescently tagged transgenes. We will therefore test whether Shot and Rab11 or Patronin and Rab11 colocalize in growing dendrites during the early L1 stage, and if loss of Shot affects the localization or the activity of Patronin and Rab11 in dendrites. We will adapt our interpretation accordingly, and also add a comprehensive model.

      References

      (1) Alves Silva et al. (2012) J. Neurosci. 32:9143

      (2) Applewhite et al. (2013) Mol. Biol. Cell 24:2885

      (3) Okenve-Ramos et al. (2024) PLoS Biol. 22:e3002504

      (4) Mattie et al. (2010) Curr. Biol. 20:2169

      (5) Herzmann et al. (2018) Development 145:dev156950

      (6) Wang et al. (2019) eLife 8:e39964

      (7) Rui et al. (2020) EMBO Rep. 21:e48843

      (8) Tang et al. (2020) EMBO J. 39:e103549

      (9) Bu et al. (2022) Cell Rep. 39:110887

      (10) Kirilly et al. (2009) Nat. Neurosci. 12:1497

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study presents experiments suggesting intriguing mesoscale reorganization of functional connectivity across distributed cortical and subcortical circuits during learning. The approach is technically impressive and the results are potentially of valuable significance. However, in its current form, the strength of evidence is incomplete. More in-depth analyses and the acquisition of data from additional animals in the primary experiment could bolster these findings.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study aims to address an important and timely question: how does the mesoscale architecture of cortical and subcortical circuits reorganize during sensorimotor learning? By using high-density, chronically implanted ultra-flexible electrode arrays, the authors track spiking activity across ten brain regions as mice learn a visual Go/No-Go task. The results indicate that learning leads to more sequential and temporally compressed patterns of activity during correct rejection trials, alongside changes in functional connectivity ranks that reflect shifts in the relative influence of visual, frontal, and motor areas throughout learning. The emergence of a more task-focused subnetwork is accompanied by broader and faster propagation of stimulus information across recorded regions.

      Strengths:

      A clear strength of this work is its recording approach. The combination of stable, high-throughput multi-region recordings over extended periods represents a significant advance for capturing learning-related network dynamics at the mesoscale. The conceptual framework is well motivated, building on prior evidence that decision-relevant signals are widely distributed across the brain. The analysis approach, combining functional connectivity rankings with information encoding metrics is well motivated but needs refinement. These results provide some valuable evidence of how learning can refine both the temporal precision and the structure of interregional communication, offering new insights into circuit reconfiguration during learning.

      Weaknesses:

      The technical approach is strong and the conceptual framing is compelling, but several aspects of the evidence remain incomplete. In particular, it is unclear whether the reported changes in connectivity truly capture causal influences, as the rank metrics remain correlational and show discrepancies with the manipulation results. The absolute response onset latencies also appear slow for sensory-guided behavior in mice, and it is not clear whether this reflects the method used to define onset timing or factors such as task structure or internal state. Furthermore, the small number of animals, combined with extensive repeated measures, raises questions about statistical independence and how multiple comparisons were controlled. The optogenetic experiments, while intended to test the functional relevance of rank-increasing regions, leave it unclear how effectively the targeted circuits were silenced. Without direct evidence of reliable local inhibition, the behavioral effects or lack thereof are difficult to interpret. Details on spike sorting are limited.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Wang et al. measure from 10 cortical and subcortical brain as mice learn a go/no-go visual discrimination task. They found that during learning, there is a reshaping of inter-areal connections, in which a visual-frontal subnetwork emerges as mice gain expertise. Also visual stimuli decoding became more widespread post-learning. They also perform silencing experiments and find that OFC and V2M are important for the learning process. The conclusion is that learning evoked a brain-wide dynamic interplay between different brain areas that together may promote learning.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is written well and the logic is rather clear. I found the study interesting and of interest to the field. The recording method is innovative and requires exceptional skills to perform. The outcomes of the study are significant, highlighting that learning evokes a widespread and dynamics modulation between different brain areas, in which specific task-related subnetworks emerge.

      Weaknesses:

      I had several major concerns:

      (1) The number of mice was small for the ephys recordings. Although the authors start with 7 mice in Figure 1, they then reduce to 5 in panel F. And in their main analysis, they minimize their analysis to 6/7 sessions from 3 mice only. I couldn't find a rationale for this reduction, but in the methods they do mention that 2 mice were used for fruitless training, which I found no mention in the results. Moreover, in the early case, all of the analysis is from 118 CR trials taken from 3 mice. In general, this is a rather low number of mice and trial numbers. I think it is quite essential to add more mice.

      (2) Movement analysis was not sufficient. Mice learning a go/no-go task establish a movement strategy that is developed throughout learning and is also biased towards Hit trials. There is an analysis of movement in Figure S4, but this is rather superficial. I was not even sure that the 3 mice in Figure S4 are the same 3 mice in the main figure. There should be also an analysis of movement as a function of time to see differences. Also for Hits and FAs. I give some more details below. In general, most of the results can be explained by the fact that as mice gain expertise, they move more (also in CR during specific times) which leads to more activation in frontal cortex and more coordination with visual areas. More needs to be done in terms of analysis, or at least a mention of this in the text.

      (3) Most of the figures are over-detailed, and it is hard to understand the take-home message. Although the text is written succinctly and rather short, the figures are mostly overwhelming, especially Figures 4-7. For example, Figure 4 presents 24 brain plots! For rank input and output rank during early and late stim and response periods, for early and expert and their difference. All in the same colormap. No significance shown at all. The Δrank maps for all cases look essentially identical across conditions. The division into early and late time periods is not properly justified. But the main take home message is positive Δrank in OFC, V2M, V1 and negative Δrank in ThalMD and Str. In my opinion, one trio map is enough, and the rest could be bumped to the Supplementary section, if at all. In general, the figure in several cases do not convey the main take home messages. See more details below.

      (4) The analysis is sometimes not intuitive enough. For example, the rank analysis of input and output rank seemed a bit over complex. Figure 3 was hard to follow (although a lot of effort was made by the authors to make it clearer). Was there any difference between the output and input analysis? Also, the time period seems redundant sometimes. Also, there are other network analysis that can be done which are a bit more intuitive. The use of rank within the 10 areas was not the most intuitive. Even a dimensionality reduction along with clustering can be used as an alternative. In my opinion, I don't think the authors should completely redo their analysis, but maybe mention the fact that other analyses exist.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In the manuscript " Dynamics of mesoscale brain network during decision-making learning revealed by chronic, large-scale single-unit recording", Wang et al investigated mesoscale network reorganization during visual stimulus discrimination learning in mice using chronic, large-scale single-unit recordings across 10 cortical/subcortical regions. During learning, mice improved task performance mainly by suppressing licking on no-go trials. The authors found that learning induced restructuring of functional connectivity, with visual (V1, V2M) and frontal (OFC, M2) regions forming a task-relevant subnetwork during the acquisition of correct No-Go (CR) trials.

      Learning also compressed sequential neural activation and broadened stimulus encoding across regions. In addition, a region's network connectivity rank correlated with its timing of peak visual stimulus encoding.

      Optogenetic inhibition of orbitofrontal cortex (OFC) and high order visual cortex (V2M) impaired learning, validating its role in learning. The work highlights how mesoscale networks underwent dynamic structuring during learning.

      Strengths:

      The use of ultra-flexible microelectrode arrays (uFINE-M) for chronic, large-scale recordings across 10 cortical/subcortical regions in behaving mice represents a significant methodological advancement. The ability to track individual units over weeks across multiple brain areas will provide a rare opportunity to study mesoscale network plasticity.

      While limited in scope, optogenetic inhibition of OFC and V2M directly ties connectivity rank changes to behavioral performance, adding causal depth to correlational observations.

      Weaknesses:

      The weakness is also related to the strength provided by the method. It is demonstrated in the original method that this approach in principle can track individual units for four months (Luan et al, 2017). The authors have not showed chronically tracked neurons across learning. Without demonstrating that and taking advantage of analyzing chronically tracked neurons, this approach is not different from acute recording across multiple days during learning. Many studies have achieved acute recording across learning using similar tasks. These studies have recorded units from a few brain areas or even across brain-wide areas.

      Another weakness is that major results are based on analyses of functional connectivity that is calculated using the cross-correlation score of spiking activity (TSPE algorithm). Functional connection strengthen across areas is then ranked 1-10 based on relative strength. Without ground truth data, it is hard to judge the underlying caveats. I'd strongly advise the authors to use complementary methods to verify the functional connectivity and to evaluate the mesoscale change in subnetworks. Perhaps the authors can use one key information of anatomy, i.e. the cortex projects to the striatum, while the striatum does not directly affect other brain structures recorded in this manuscript.

    5. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Weaknesses:

      The technical approach is strong and the conceptual framing is compelling, but several aspects of the evidence remain incomplete. In particular, it is unclear whether the reported changes in connectivity truly capture causal influences, as the rank metrics remain correlational and show discrepancies with the manipulation results.

      We agree that our functional connectivity ranking analyses cannot establish causal influences. As discussed in the manuscript, besides learning-related activity changes, the functional connectivity may also be influenced by neuromodulatory systems and internal state fluctuations. In addition, the spatial scope of our recordings is still limited compared to the full network implicated in visual discrimination learning, which may bias the ranking estimates. In future, we aim to achieve broader region coverage and integrate multiple complementary analyses to address the causal contribution of each region.

      The absolute response onset latencies also appear slow for sensory-guided behavior in mice, and it is not clear whether this reflects the method used to define onset timing or factors such as task structure or internal state.

      We believe this may be primarily due to our conservative definition of onset timing. Specifically, we required the firing rate to exceed baseline (t-test, p < 0.05) for at least 3 consecutive 25-ms time windows. This might lead to later estimates than other studies, such as using the latency to the first spike after visual stimulus onset (~50-60 ms, Siegle et al., Nature, 2023) or the time to half-max response (~65 ms, Goldbach et al., eLife, 2021).

      Furthermore, the small number of animals, combined with extensive repeated measures, raises questions about statistical independence and how multiple comparisons were controlled.

      We agree that a larger sample size would strengthen the robustness of the findings. However, as noted above, the current dataset has inherent limitations in both the number of recorded regions and the behavioral paradigm. Given the considerable effort required to achieve sufficient unit yields across all targeted regions, we wish to adjust the set of recorded regions, improve behavioral task design, and implement better analyses in future studies. This will allow us to both increase the number of animals and extract more precise insights into mesoscale dynamics during learning.

      The optogenetic experiments, while intended to test the functional relevance of rank increasing regions, leave it unclear how effectively the targeted circuits were silenced. Without direct evidence of reliable local inhibition, the behavioral effects or lack thereof are difficult to interpret.

      We appreciate this important point. Due to the design of the flexible electrodes and the implantation procedure, bilateral co-implantation of both electrodes and optical fibers was challenging, which prevented us from directly validating the inhibition effect in the same animals used for behavior. In hindsight, we could have conducted parallel validations using conventional electrodes, and we will incorporate such controls in future work to provide direct evidence of manipulation efficacy.

      Details on spike sorting are limited.

      We will provide more details on spike sorting, including the exact parameters used in the automated sorting algorithm and the subsequent manual curation criteria.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Weaknesses:

      I had several major concerns:

      (1) The number of mice was small for the ephys recordings. Although the authors start with 7 mice in Figure 1, they then reduce to 5 in panel F. And in their main analysis, they minimize their analysis to 6/7 sessions from 3 mice only. I couldn't find a rationale for this reduction, but in the methods they do mention that 2 mice were used for fruitless training, which I found no mention in the results. Moreover, in the early case, all of the analysis is from 118 CR trials taken from 3 mice. In general, this is a rather low number of mice and trial numbers. I think it is quite essential to add more mice.

      We apologize for the confusion. As described in the Methods section, 7 mice (Figure 1B) were used for behavioral training without electrode array or optical fiber implants to establish learning curves, and an additional 5 mice underwent electrophysiological recordings (3 for visual-based decision-making learning and 2 for fruitless learning).

      As we noted in our response to Reviewer #1, the current dataset has inherent limitations in both the number of recorded regions and the behavioral paradigm. Given the considerable effort required to achieve high-quality unit yields across all targeted regions, we wish to adjust the set of recorded regions, improve behavioral task design, and implement better analyses in future studies. These improvements will enable us to collect data from a larger sample size and extract more precise insights into mesoscale dynamics during learning.

      (2) Movement analysis was not sufficient. Mice learning a go/no-go task establish a movement strategy that is developed throughout learning and is also biased towards Hit trials. There is an analysis of movement in Figure S4, but this is rather superficial. I was not even sure that the 3 mice in Figure S4 are the same 3 mice in the main figure. There should be also an analysis of movement as a function of time to see differences. Also for Hits and FAs. I give some more details below. In general, most of the results can be explained by the fact that as mice gain expertise, they move more (also in CR during specific times) which leads to more activation in frontal cortex and more coordination with visual areas. More needs to be done in terms of analysis, or at least a mention of this in the text.

      Due to the limitation in the experimental design and implementation, movement tracking was not performed during the electrophysiological recordings, and the 3 mice shown in Figure S4 were from a separate group. We have carefully examined the temporal profiles of mouse movements and found it did not fully match the rank dynamics, and we will add these results and related discussion in the revised manuscript. However, we acknowledge that without synchronized movement recordings in the main dataset, we cannot fully disentangle movement-related neural activity from task-related signals. We will make this limitation explicit in the revised manuscript and discuss it as a potential confound, along with possible approaches to address it in future work.

      (3) Most of the figures are over-detailed, and it is hard to understand the take-home message. Although the text is written succinctly and rather short, the figures are mostly overwhelming, especially Figures 4-7. For example, Figure 4 presents 24 brain plots! For rank input and output rank during early and late stim and response periods, for early and expert and their difference. All in the same colormap. No significance shown at all. The Δrank maps for all cases look essentially identical across conditions. The division into early and late time periods is not properly justified. But the main take home message is positive Δrank in OFC, V2M, V1 and negative Δrank in ThalMD and Str. In my opinion, one trio map is enough, and the rest could be bumped to the Supplementary section, if at all. In general, the figure in several cases do not convey the main take home messages. See more details below.

      We thank the reviewer for this valuable critique. The statistical significance corresponding to the brain plots (Figure 4 and Figure 5) was presented in Figure S3 and S5, but we agree that the figure can be simplified to focus on the key results. In the revised manuscript, we will condense these figures to focus on the most important comparisons and relocate secondary plots to the Supplementary section. This will make the visual presentation more concise and the take-home message clearer.

      (4) The analysis is sometimes not intuitive enough. For example, the rank analysis of input and output rank seemed a bit over complex. Figure 3 was hard to follow (although a lot of effort was made by the authors to make it clearer). Was there any difference between the output and input analysis? Also, the time period seems redundant sometimes. Also, there are other network analysis that can be done which are a bit more intuitive. The use of rank within the 10 areas was not the most intuitive. Even a dimensionality reduction along with clustering can be used as an alternative. In my opinion, I don't think the authors should completely redo their analysis, but maybe mention the fact that other analyses exist

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. In brief, the input- and output-rank analyses yielded largely similar patterns across regions in CR trials, although some differences were observed in certain areas (e.g., striatum in Hit trials) where the magnitude of rank change was not identical between input and output measures. We agree that the division into multiple time periods sometimes led to redundant results; we will combine overlapping results in the revision to improve clarity.

      We did explore dimensionality reduction applied to the ranking data. However, the results were not intuitive and required additional interpretation, which did not bring more insights. Still, we acknowledge that other analysis approaches might provide complementary insights. While we do not plan to completely reanalyze the dataset at this stage, we will include a discussion of these alternative methods and their potential advantages in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Weaknesses:

      The weakness is also related to the strength provided by the method. It is demonstrated in the original method that this approach in principle can track individual units for four months (Luan et al, 2017). The authors have not showed chronically tracked neurons across learning. Without demonstrating that and taking advantage of analyzing chronically tracked neurons, this approach is not different from acute recording across multiple days during learning. Many studies have achieved acute recording across learning using similar tasks. These studies have recorded units from a few brain areas or even across brain-wide areas.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s important point. We did attempt to track the same neurons across learning in this project. However, due to the limited number of electrodes implanted in each brain region, the number of chronically tracked neurons in each region was insufficient to support statistically robust analyses. Concentrating probes in fewer regions would allow us to obtain enough units tracked across learning in future studies to fully exploit the advantages of this method.

      Another weakness is that major results are based on analyses of functional connectivity that is calculated using the cross-correlation score of spiking activity (TSPE algorithm). Functional connection strengthen across areas is then ranked 1-10 based on relative strength. Without ground truth data, it is hard to judge the underlying caveats. I'd strongly advise the authors to use complementary methods to verify the functional connectivity and to evaluate the mesoscale change in subnetworks. Perhaps the authors can use one key information of anatomy, i.e. the cortex projects to the striatum, while the striatum does not directly affect other brain structures recorded in this manuscript

      We agree that the functional connectivity measured in this study relies on statistical correlations rather than direct anatomical connections. We plan to test the functional connection data with shorter cross-correlation delay criteria to see whether the results are consistent with anatomical connections and whether the original findings still hold.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study investigates how sleep loss and circadian disruption affect whole-organ metabolism in flies (Drosophila melanogaster) and reports that wild-type flies align metabolism in anticipation of diurnal rhythm, while mutant flies with impaired sleep or circadian function shift to reactive or misaligned metabolism. The integration of chamber-based flow-through respirometry with LC-MS metabolomics is innovative, and the significance of the findings is valuable. However, the strength of evidence needed to support the conclusions is incomplete based on concerns regarding the inappropriate use of constant darkness to disrupt circadian rhythms and the lack of details justifying the methods used to correlate respirometry data with whole-body metabolomics.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study by Akhtar et al. aims to investigate the link between systemic metabolism and respiratory demands, and how sleep and the circadian clock regulate metabolic states and respiratory dynamics. The authors leverage genetic mutants that are defective in sleep and circadian behavior in combination with indirect respirometry and steady-state LC-MS-based metabolomics to address this question in the Drosophila model.

      First, the authors performed respirometry (on groups of 25 flies) to measure oxygen consumption (VO2) and carbon dioxide production (VCO2) to calculate the respiratory quotient (RQ) across the 24-hour day (12h:12h light-dark cycle) and assess metabolic fuel utilization. They observed that among all the genotypes tested, wild type (WT) flies and per0 flies in LD and WT flies in DD exhibit RQ >1. They concluded the >1 RQ is consistent with active lipogenesis. In contrast, the short-sleep mutants fumin (fmn) and sleepless (sss) showed significantly different RQ; the fmn exhibits a slight reduction in RQ values, suggesting increased reliance on carbohydrate metabolism, while sss exhibits even lower RQ (0.94), consistent with a shift toward lipid and protein catabolism.

      The authors then proceeded to bin these measurements in 12-hour partitions, ZT0-12 and ZT12-24, to assess diurnal differences in average values of VO2, VCO2, and RQ. They observed significant day-night differences in metabolic rates in WT-LD flies, with higher rates during the day. The diurnal differences remain in the short-sleep mutants, but the overall metabolic rates are higher. WT-DD flies exhibit the lowest respiratory activity, although the day-night differences remain in free-running conditions. Finally, per01 mutants exhibit no significant change in day-night respiratory rates, suggesting that a functional circadian clock is necessary for diurnal differences in metabolic rates.

      They then performed finer-resolution 24-hour rhythmic analysis (RAIN and JTK) to determine if VO2, VCO2, and RQ exhibit 24-hour rhythmic and if there are genotype-specific differences. Based on their criteria, VCO2 is rhythmic in all conditions tested, while VO2 is rhythmic in all conditions except in fmn-LD. Finally, RQ is rhythmic in all 3 mutants but not in WT-LD and WT-DD. Peak phases for the rhythms were deduced using JTK lag values.

      The authors proceeded to leverage a previously published steady-state metabolite dataset to investigate the potential association of RQ with metabolite profiles. Spearman correlation was performed to identify metabolites that exhibit coupling to respiratory output. Positive and negative lag analysis were subsequently performed to further characterize these associations based on the timing of the metabolite peak changes relative to RQ fluctuations. The authors suggest that a positive lag indicates that metabolite changes occur after shifts in RQ, and a negative lag signifies that metabolite changes precede RQ changes. To visualize metabolic pathways that exhibit these temporal relationships, a clustered heatmap and enrichment analysis were performed. Through these analyses, they concluded that both sleep and circadian systems are essential for aligning metabolic substrate selection with energy demands, and different metabolic pathways are misregulated in the different mutants with sleep and circadian defects.

      Strength:

      The research questions this study explores are significant, given that metabolism and respiratory demand are central to animal biology. The experimental methods used, including the well-characterized fly genetic mutants, the newly developed method for indirect calorimetry measurements, and LC-MS-based metabolomics, are all appropriate. This study provides insights into the impact of sleep and circadian rhythm disruption on metabolism and respiratory demand and serves as a foundation for future mechanistic investigations.

      Weaknesses:

      There are some conceptual flaws that the authors need to address regarding circadian biology, and some of the conclusions can be better supported by additional analysis to provide a stronger foundation for future functional investigation. At times, the methods, especially the statistical analysis, are not well articulated; they need to be better explained.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This is an innovative and technically strong study that integrates dual-gas respirometry with LC-MS metabolomics to examine how sleep and circadian disruption shape metabolism in Drosophila. The combination of continuous O₂/CO₂ measurements with high-temporal-resolution metabolite profiling is novel and provides fresh insight into how wild-type flies maintain anticipatory fuel alignment, while mutants shift to reactive or misaligned metabolism. The use of lag-shift correlation analysis is particularly clever, as it highlights temporal coordination rather than static associations. Together, the findings advance our understanding of how circadian clocks and sleep contribute to metabolic efficiency and redox balance.

      However, there are several areas where the manuscript could be strengthened. The authors should acknowledge that their findings may be gene-specific. Because sleep deprivation was not performed, it remains uncertain whether the observed metabolic shifts generalize to sleep loss broadly or are restricted to the fmn and sss mutants. This concern also connects to the finding of metabolic misalignment under constant darkness despite an intact clock. The conclusion that external entrainment is essential for maintaining energy homeostasis in flies may not translate to mammals. It would help to reference supporting data for the finding and discuss differences across species. Ideally, complementary circadian (light-dark cycle disruption) or sleep deprivation (for several hours) experiments, or citation of comparable studies, would strengthen the generality of the findings. Figures 1-4 are straightforward and clear, but when the manuscript transitions to the metabolite-respiration correlations, there is little description of the metabolomics methods or datasets, which should be clarified. The Discussion is at times repetitive and could be tightened, with the main message (i.e., wild-type flies align metabolism in advance, while mutants do not) kept front and center. Terms such as "anticipatory" and "reactive" should be defined early and used consistently throughout.

      Overall, this is a strong and novel contribution. With clarification of scope, refinement of presentation, and a more focused Discussion, the paper will make a significant impact.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors investigate how sleep loss and circadian disruption affect whole-organism metabolism in Drosophila melanogaster. They used chamber-based flow-through respirometry to measure oxygen consumption and carbon dioxide production in wild-type flies and in mutants with impaired sleep or circadian function. These measurements were then integrated with a previously published metabolomics dataset to explore how respiratory dynamics align with metabolic pathways. The central claim is that wild-type flies display anticipatory coordination of metabolic processes with circadian time, while mutants exhibit reactive shifts in substrate use, redox imbalance, and signs of mitochondrial stress.

      Strengths:

      The study has several strengths. Continuous high-resolution respirometry in flies is challenging, and its application across multiple genotypes provides good comparative insight. The conceptual framework distinguishing anticipatory from reactive metabolic regulation is interesting. The translational framing helps place the work in a broader context of sleep, circadian biology, and metabolic health.

      Weaknesses:

      At the same time, the evidence supporting the conclusions is somewhat limited. The metabolomics data were not newly generated but repurposed from prior work, reducing novelty. The biological replication in the respirometry assays is low, with only a small number of chambers per genotype. Importantly, respiratory parameters in flies are strongly influenced by locomotor activity, yet no direct measurements of activity were included, making it difficult to separate intrinsic metabolic changes from behavioral differences in mutants. In addition, repeated claims of "mitochondrial stress" are not directly substantiated by assays of mitochondrial function. The study also excluded female flies entirely, despite well-documented sex differences in metabolism, which narrows the generality of the findings.

    5. Author response:

      We thank the reviewers for their thoughtful public feedback. Our revision will clarify scope and methods/statistics, as well as streamline the narrative so the central message is clear: wild-type flies exhibit anticipatory alignment of fuel selection with circadian time, whereas short-sleep and clock mutants show reactive or misaligned metabolism under our conditions.

      Major conceptual and experimental revisions:

      (1) We will define “anticipatory” (clock-aligned, pre-emptive substrate choice) and “reactive” (post-hoc substrate shifts) up front and use these terms consistently. We will clearly distinguish diurnal (LD) from circadian (DD) regulation and avoid implying that DD abolishes rhythmicity. Claims will be limited to the tested genotypes (fmn, sss, and per<sup>01</sup>) without generalizing to all forms of sleep loss or to mammals (although we will speculate in the discussion about translation and generalizability). We will temper language around external entrainment in DD to “contributes strongly under our conditions in flies.”

      (2) We will expand the respirometry and rhythmicity sections (RAIN/JTK parameters, period/phase outputs, multiple-testing control). We will clarify that each measurement is an average of 300 flies per genotype (25 flies/chamber, 4 chambers/experiment, 3 experimental days) and specify the chamber as the experimental unit with n and error structure in each figure legend. For metabolomics–respirometry correlations, we will briefly describe dataset parameters, time-matching across ZT, normalization, Spearman correlations, and lag interpretation.

      (3) We are performing additional experimental measurements through tissue respirometry of gut tissues and ROS staining to support our claims of “mitochondrial stress” in the short sleeping mutants. We note that this has already been shown for fmn in Vaccaro et al (Cell, 2020) and we will extend this to the other mutants studied in our work.

      Reviewer-specific points

      Reviewer #1.

      We will clarify the circadian/diurnal framing, fully report rhythmicity analyses (parameters, n, q-values, phases), and better explain the metabolomics-respiration coupling with a concise workflow figure and supplementary table. The conclusion that sleep and clock systems align substrate selection with energy demand will be presented as supported under our tested conditions and positioned as groundwork for future mechanistic studies.

      Reviewer #2.

      We will state explicitly that findings may be gene-specific and avoid inferring generality to all sleep loss. We will soften cross-species language about external entrainment and add a brief note on species differences. For behavioral context (activity/feeding/sleep in fmn andsss), we will cite our related manuscript in revision (Malik et al, https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.10.30.564837v2) in which we have measured both activity and feeding for fmn, sss, and wt flies. We will add a concise description of LC-MS processing and pathway analysis and define “anticipatory”/“reactive” early, using them consistently.

      Reviewer #3.

      We acknowledge that metabolomics were repurposed and emphasize the novelty of integrating continuous VCO2 and VO2 respirometry with temporal lag analysis. We will report replication clearly (chambers as the unit, n per genotype) and acknowledge locomotor activity as a potential confound, pointing to the related manuscript (Malik et al) for independent activity/feeding measurements and experimental measures of mitochondrial stress as outlined above. We will also further note that only males were studied, outlining this as a limitation and a future direction.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This important work presents technical and conceptual advances with the release of MorphoNet 2.0, a versatile and accessible platform for 3D+T segmentation and analysis. The authors provide compelling evidence across diverse datasets, and the clarity of the manuscript together with the software's usability broadens its impact. Although the strength of some improvements is hard to fully gauge given sample complexity, the tool is a significant step forward that will likely impact many biological imaging fields.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This article presents Morphonet 2.0, a software designed to visualise and curate segmentations of 3D and 3D+t data. The authors demonstrate its capabilities on five published datasets, showcasing how even small segmentation errors can be automatically detected, easily assessed and corrected by the user. This allows for more reliable ground truths which will in turn be very much valuable for analysis and training deep learning models. Morphonet 2.0 offers intuitive 3D inspection and functionalities accessible to a non-coding audience, thereby broadening its impact.

      Strengths:

      The work proposed in this article is expected to be of great interest for the community, by enabling easy visualisation and correction of complex 3D(+t) datasets. Moreover, the article is clear and well written making MorphoNet more likely to be used. The goals are clearly defined, addressing an undeniable need in the bioimage analysis community. The authors use a diverse range of datasets, successfully demonstrating the versatility of the software.

      We would also like to highlight the great effort that was made to clearly explain which type of computer configurations are necessary to run the different dataset and how to find the appropriate documentation according to your needs. The authors clearly carefully thought about these two important problems and came up with very satisfactory solutions.

      Weaknesses:

      Sometimes, it can be a bit difficult to assess the strength of the improvements made by the proposed methods, but this is not something the authors could easily address, given the great complexity of the samples

    3. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      The authors present a substantial improvement to their existing tool, MorphoNet, intended to facilitate assessment of 3D+t cell segmentation and tracking results, and curation of high-quality analysis for scientific discovery and data sharing. These tools are provided through a user-friendly GUI, making them accessible to biologists who are not experienced coders. Further, the authors have re-developed this tool to be a locally installed piece of software instead of a web interface, making the analysis and rendering of large 3D+t datasets more computationally efficient. The authors evidence the value of this tool with a series of use cases, in which they apply different features of the software to existing datasets and show the improvement to the segmentation and tracking achieved. 

      While the computational tools packaged in this software are familiar to readers (e.g., cellpose), the novel contribution of this work is the focus on error correction. The MorphoNet 2.0 software helps users identify where their candidate segmentation and/or tracking may be incorrect. The authors then provide existing tools in a single user-friendly package, lowering the threshold of skill required for users to get maximal value from these existing tools. To help users apply these tools effectively, the authors introduce a number of unsupervised quality metrics that can be applied to a segmentation candidate to identify masks and regions where the segmentation results are noticeably different from the majority of the image. 

      This work is valuable to researchers who are working with cell microscopy data that requires high-quality segmentation and tracking, particularly if their data are 3D time-lapse and thus challenging to segment and assess. The MorphoNet 2.0 tool that the authors present is intended to make the iterative process of segmentation, quality assessment, and re-processing easier and more streamlined, combining commonly used tools into a single user interface.   

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for their thorough and encouraging evaluation of our work. We are grateful that they highlighted both the technical improvements of MorphoNet 2.0 and its potential impact for the broader community working with complex 3D+t microscopy datasets. We particularly appreciate the recognition of our efforts to make advanced segmentation and tracking tools accessible to non-expert users through a user-friendly and locally installable interface, and for pointing out the importance of error detection and correction in the iterative analysis workflow. The reviewer’s appreciation of the value of integrating unsupervised quality metrics to support this process is especially meaningful to us, as this was a central motivation behind the development of MorphoNet 2.0. We hope the tool will indeed facilitate more rigorous and reproducible analyses, and we are encouraged by the reviewer’s positive assessment of its utility for the community.

      One of the key contributions of the work is the unsupervised metrics that MorphoNet 2.0 offers for segmentation quality assessment. These metrics are used in the use cases to identify low-quality instances of segmentation in the provided datasets, so that they can be improved with plugins directly in MorphoNet 2.0. However, not enough consideration is given to demonstrating that optimizing these metrics leads to an improvement in segmentation quality. For example, in Use Case 1, the authors report their metrics of interest (Intensity offset, Intensity border variation, and Nuclei volume) for the uncurated silver truth, the partially curated and fully curated datasets, but this does not evidence an improvement in the results. Additional plotting of the distribution of these metrics on the Gold Truth data could help confirm that the distribution of these metrics now better matches the expected distribution. 

      Similarly, in Use Case 2, visual inspection leads us to believe that the segmentation generated by the Cellpose + Deli pipeline (shown in Figure 4d) is an improvement, but a direct comparison of agreement between segmented masks and masks in the published data (where the segmentations overlap) would further evidence this. 

      We agree that demonstrating the correlation between metric optimization and real segmentation improvement is essential. We have added new analysis comparing the distributions of the unsupervised metrics with the gold truth data before and after curation. Additionally, we provided overlap scores where ground truth annotations are available, confirming the improvement. We also explicitly discussed the limitation of relying solely on unsupervised metrics without complementary validation.

      We would appreciate the authors addressing the risk of decreasing the quality of the segmentations by applying circular logic with their tool; MorphoNet 2.0 uses unsupervised metrics to identify masks that do not fit the typical distribution. A model such as StarDist can be trained on the "good" masks to generate more masks that match the most common type. This leads to a more homogeneous segmentation quality, without consideration for whether these metrics actually optimize the segmentation 

      We thank the reviewer for this important and insightful comment. It raises a crucial point regarding the risk of circular logic in our segmentation pipeline. Indeed, relying on unsupervised metrics to select “good” masks and using them to train a model like StarDist could lead to reinforcing a particular distribution of shapes or sizes, potentially filtering out biologically relevant variability. This homogenization may improve consistency with the chosen metrics, but not necessarily with the true underlying structures.

      We fully agree that this is a key limitation to be aware of. We have revised the manuscript to explicitly discuss this risk, emphasizing that while our approach may help improve segmentation quality according to specific criteria, it should be complemented with biological validation and, when possible, expert input to ensure that important but rare phenotypes are not excluded.

      In Use case 5, the authors include details that the errors were corrected by "264 MorphoNet plugin actions ... in 8 hours actions [sic]". The work would benefit from explaining whether this is 8 hours of human work, trying plugins and iteratively improving, or 8 hours of compute time to apply the selected plugins. 

      We clarified that the “8 hours” refer to human interaction time, including exploration, testing, and iterative correction using plugins. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary: 

      This article presents Morphonet 2.0, a software designed to visualise and curate segmentations of 3D and 3D+t data. The authors demonstrate their capabilities on five published datasets, showcasing how even small segmentation errors can be automatically detected, easily assessed, and corrected by the user. This allows for more reliable ground truths, which will in turn be very much valuable for analysis and training deep learning models. Morphonet 2.0 offers intuitive 3D inspection and functionalities accessible to a non-coding audience, thereby broadening its impact. 

      Strengths: 

      The work proposed in this article is expected to be of great interest to the community by enabling easy visualisation and correction of complex 3D(+t) datasets. Moreover, the article is clear and well written, making MorphoNet more likely to be used. The goals are clearly defined, addressing an undeniable need in the bioimage analysis community. The authors use a diverse range of datasets, successfully demonstrating the versatility of the software. 

      We would also like to highlight the great effort that was made to clearly explain which type of computer configurations are necessary to run the different datasets and how to find the appropriate documentation according to your needs. The authors clearly carefully thought about these two important problems and came up with very satisfactory solutions. 

      We would like to sincerely thank the reviewer for their positive and thoughtful feedback. We are especially grateful that they acknowledged the clarity of the manuscript and the potential value of MorphoNet 2.0 for the community, particularly in facilitating the visualization and correction of complex 3D(+t) datasets. We also appreciate the reviewer’s recognition of our efforts to provide detailed guidance on hardware requirements and access to documentation—two aspects we consider crucial to ensuring the tool is both usable and widely adopted. Their comments are very encouraging and reinforce our commitment to making MorphoNet 2.0 as accessible and practical as possible for a broad range of users in the bioimage analysis community.

      Weaknesses: 

      There is still one concern: the quantification of the improvement of the segmentations in the use cases and, therefore, the quantification of the potential impact of the software. While it appears hard to quantify the quality of the correction, the proposed work would be significantly improved if such metrics could be provided. 

      The authors show some distributions of metrics before and after segmentations to highlight the changes. This is a great start, but there seem to be two shortcomings: first, the comparison and interpretation of the different distributions does not appear to be trivial. It is therefore difficult to judge the quality of the improvement from these. Maybe an explanation in the text of how to interpret the differences between the distributions could help. A second shortcoming is that the before/after metrics displayed are the metrics used to guide the correction, so, by design, the scores will improve, but does that accurately represent the improvement of the segmentation? It seems to be the case, but it would be nice to maybe have a better assessment of the improvement of the quality. 

      We thank the reviewer for this constructive and important comment. We fully agreed that assessing the true quality improvement of segmentation after correction is a central and challenging issue. While we initially focused on changes in the unsupervised quality metrics to illustrate the effect of the correction, we acknowledged that interpreting these distributions was not always straightforward, and that relying solely on the metrics used to guide the correction introduced an inherent bias in the evaluation.

      To address the first point, we revised the manuscript to provide clearer guidance on how to interpret the changes in metric distributions before and after correction, with additional examples to make this interpretation more intuitive.

      Regarding the second point, we agreed that using independent, external validation was necessary to confirm that the segmentation had genuinely improved. To this end, we included additional assessments using complementary evaluation strategies on selected datasets where ground truth was accessible, to compare pre- and post-correction segmentations with an independent reference. These results reinforced the idea that the corrections guided by unsupervised metrics generally led to more accurate segmentations, but we also emphasized their limitations and the need for biological validation in real-world cases.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      A very thorough technical report of a new standalone, open-source software for microscopy image processing and analysis (MorphoNet 2.0), with a particular emphasis on automated segmentation and its curation to obtain accurate results even with very complex 3D stacks, including timelapse experiments. 

      Strengths: 

      The authors did a good job of explaining the advantages of MorphoNet 2.0, as compared to its previous web-based version and to other software with similar capabilities. What I particularly found more useful to actually envisage these claimed advantages is the five examples used to illustrate the power of the software (based on a combination of

      Python scripting and the 3D game engine Unity). These examples, from published research, are very varied in both types of information and image quality, and all have their complexities, making them inherently difficult to segment. I strongly recommend the readers to carefully watch the accompanying videos, which show (although not thoroughly) how the software is actually used in these examples. 

      We sincerely thanked the reviewer for their thoughtful and encouraging feedback. We were particularly pleased that the reviewer appreciated the comparative analysis of MorphoNet 2.0 with both its earlier version and existing tools, as well as the relevance of the five diverse and complex use cases we had selected. Demonstrating the software’s versatility and robustness across a variety of challenging datasets was a key goal of this work, and we were glad that this aspect came through clearly. We also appreciated the reviewer’s recommendation to watch the accompanying videos, which we had designed to provide a practical sense of how the tool was used in real-world scenarios. Their positive assessment was highly motivating and reinforced the value of combining scripting flexibility with an interactive 3D interface.

      Weaknesses: 

      Being a technical article, the only possible comments are on how methods are presented, which is generally adequate, as mentioned above. In this regard, and in spite of the presented examples (chosen by the authors, who clearly gave them a deep thought before showing them), the only way in which the presented software will prove valuable is through its use by as many researchers as possible. This is not a weakness per se, of course, but just what is usual in this sort of report. Hence, I encourage readers to download the software and give it time to test it on their own data (which I will also do myself).   

      We fully agreed that the true value of MorphoNet 2.0 would be demonstrated through its practical use by a wide range of researchers working with complex 3D and 3D+t datasets. In this regard, we improved the user documentation and provided a set of example datasets to help new users quickly familiarize themselves with the platform. We were also committed to maintaining and updating MorphoNet 2.0 based on user feedback to further support its usability and impact.

      In conclusion, I believe that this report is fundamental because it will be the major way of initially promoting the use of MorphoNet 2.0 by the objective public. The software itself holds the promise of being very impactful for the microscopists' community. 

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) In Use Case 1, when referring to Figure 3a, they describe features of 3b? 

      We corrected the mismatch between Figure 3a and 3b descriptions.

      (2) In Figure 3g-I, columns for Curated Nuclei and All Nuclei appear to be incorrectly labelled, and should be the other way around. 

      We corrected  the label swapped between “Curated Nuclei” and “All Nuclei.”

      (3) Some mention of how this will be supported in the future would be of interest. 

      We added a note on long-term support plans  

      (4) Could Morphonet be rolled into something like napari and integrated into its environment with access to its plugins and tools? 

      We thank the reviewer for this pertinent suggestion. We fully recognize the growing importance of interoperability within the bioimage analysis community, and we have been working on establishing a bridge between MorphoNet and napari to enable data exchange and complementary use of the two tools. As a platform, all new developments are first evaluated by our beta testers before being officially released to the user community and subsequently documented. The interoperability component is still under active development and will be announced shortly in a beta-testing phase. For this reason, we were not able to include it in the present manuscript, but we plan to document it in a future release.

      (5) Can meshes be extracted/saved in another format? 

      We agreed that the ability to extract and save meshes in standard formats was highly useful for interoperability with other tools. We implemented this feature in the new version of MorphoNet, allowing users to export meshes in commonly used formats such as OBJ or STL. Response: We thank the reviewer for this pertinent suggestion. We fully recognize the growing importance of interoperability within the bioimage analysis community, and we have been working on establishing a bridge between MorphoNet and napari to enable data exchange and complementary use of the two tools. As a platform, all new developments are first evaluated by our beta testers before being officially released to the user community and subsequently documented. The interoperability component is still under active development and will be announced shortly in a beta-testing phase. For this reason, we were not able to include it in the present manuscript, but we plan to document it in a future release.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      As a comment, since the authors mentioned the recent progress in 3D segmentation of various biological components, including organelles, it could be interesting to have examples of Morphonet applied to investigate subcellular structures. These present different challenges in visualization and quantification due to their smaller scale.

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful suggestion. We fully agree that applying MorphoNet 2.0 to the analysis of sub-cellular structures is a promising direction, particularly given the specific challenges these datasets present in terms of resolution, visualization, and quantification. While our current use cases focus on cellular and tissue-level segmentation, we are actively interested in extending the applicability of the tool to finer scales. We are currently exploring plugins for spot detection and curation in single-molecule FISH data. However, this requires more time to properly validate relevant use cases, and we plan to include this functionality in the next release.

      Another comment is that the authors briefly mention two other state-of-the-art softwares (namely FIJI and napari) but do not really position MorphoNet against them. The text would likely benefit from such a comparison so the users can better decide which one to use or not. 

      We agreed that providing a clearer comparison between MorphoNet 2.0 and other widely used tools such as FIJI and Napari would greatly benefit readers and potential users. In response, we included a new paragraph in the supplementary materials of the revised manuscript, highlighting the main features, strengths, and limitations of each tool in the context of 3D+t segmentation, visualization, and correction workflows. This addition helped users better understand the positioning of MorphoNet 2.0 and make informed choices based on their specific needs.

      Minor comments: 

      L 439: The Deli plugin is mentioned but not introduced in the main text; it could be helpful to have an idea of what it is without having to dive into the supplementary material. 

      We included a brief description in the main text and thoroughly revise the help pages to improve clarity

      Figure 4: It is not clear how the potential holes created by the removal of objects are handled. Are the empty areas filled by neighboring cells, for example, are they left empty? 

      We clarified in the figure legend of Figure 4.

      Please remove from the supplementary the use cases that are already in the main text. 

      We cleaned up redundant use case descriptions.

      Typos: 

      L 22: the end of the sentence is missing. 

      L 51: There are two "."   

      L 370: replace 'et' with 'and'.   

      L 407-408, Figure 3: panels g-i, the columns 'curated nuclei' and 'all nuclei' seem to be inverted. 

      L 549: "four 4". 

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      Dear Authors, what follows are "minor comments" (the only sort of comment I have for this nice report): 

      Minor issues: 

      (1) Not being a user of MorphoNet, I found that reading the manuscript was a bit hard due to the several names of plugins or tools that are mentioned, many times without a clear explanation of what they do. One way of improving this could be to add a table, a sort of glossary, with those names, a brief explanation of what they are, and a link to their "help" page on the web. 

      We understood that the manuscript might be difficult to follow for readers unfamiliar with MorphoNet, especially due to the numerous plugin and tool names referenced. To address this, we carried out a complete overhaul of the help pages to make them clearer, more structured, and easier to navigate.

      (2) Figure 4d, orthogonal view: It is claimed that this segmentation is correct according to the original intensity image, but it is not clear why some cells in the border actually appear a lot bigger than other cells in the embryo. It does look like an incomplete segmentation due to the poor image quality at the border. Whether this is the case or if the authors consider the contrary, it should be somehow explained/discussed in the figure legend or the main text. 

      We revised the figure legend and main text to acknowledge the challenge of segmenting peripheral regions with low signal-to-noise ratios and discussed how this affects segmentation.

      Small writing issues I could spot:   

      Line 247: there is a double point after "Sup. Mat..". 

      Line 329: probably a diagrammation error of the pdf I use to review, there is a loose sentence apparently related to a figure: "Vegetal view ofwith smoothness". 

      Line 393 (and many other places): avoid using numbers when it is not a parameter you are talking about, and the number is smaller than 10. In this case, it should be: "The five steps...". 

      Line 459: Is "opposite" referring to "Vegetal", like in g? In addition, it starts with lower lowercase. 

      Lines 540-541: Check if redaction is correct in "...projected the values onto the meshed dual of the object..." (it sounds obscure to me). 

      Lines 548-549: Same thing for "...included two groups of four 4 nuclei and one group of 3 fused nuclei.". 

      Line 637: Should it be "Same view as b"? 

      Line 646: "The property highlights..."? 

      Line 651: In the text, I have seen a "propagation plugin" named as "Prope", "Propa", and now "Propi". Are they all different? Is it a mistake? Please, see my first "Minor issue", which might help readers navigate through this sort of confusing nomenclature. 

      Line 702: I personally find the use of the term "eco-system" inappropriate in this context. We scientists know what an ecosystem is, and the fact that it has now become a fashionable word for politicians does not make it correct in any context. 

      We thank the reviewer for their careful reading of the manuscript and for pointing out these writing and typographic issues. We corrected all the mentioned points in the revised version, including punctuation, sentence clarity, consistent naming of tools (e.g., the propagation plugin), and appropriate use of terms such as “ecosystem.” We also appreciated the suggestion to avoid numerals for numbers under ten when not referring to parameters, and we ensured consistency throughout the text. These corrections improved the clarity and readability of the manuscript, and we were grateful for the reviewer’s attention to detail.

    1. eLife Assessment

      The study presents important insights into the regulation of muscle hypertrophy, regulated by Muscle Ankyrin Repeat Proteins (MARPs) and mTOR. The methods are overall solid and complementary, with only minor limitations. Overall, the findings will be of interest for both muscle-biology specialists and the broader mechanobiology community.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors employ diaphragm denervation in rats and mice to study titin‑based mechanosensing and longitudinal muscle hypertrophy. By integrating bulk RNA‑seq, proteomics, and phosphoproteomics, they map the stretch‑responsive signalling landscape, uncovering robust induction of the muscle‑ankyrin‑repeat proteins (MARP1‑3) together with enhanced phosphorylation of titin's N2A element. Genetic ablation of MARPs in mice amplifies longitudinal fibre growth and is accompanied by activation of the mTOR pathway, whereas systemic rapamycin treatment suppresses the hypertrophic response, highlighting mTORC1 as a key downstream effector of titin/MARP signalling.

      Strengths:

      The authors address a clear biological question: "how titin‑associated factors translate mechanical stretch into longitudinal fibre growth" using a unique and clinically relevant animal model of diaphragm denervation. Using a comprehensive multiomics approach, the authors identify MARPs as potential mediators of these effects and use a genetic mouse model to provide compelling evidence supporting causality. Additionally, connecting these findings to rapamycin, a drug widely used clinically, further increases the relevance and potential impact of the study.

      Weaknesses:

      There are several areas where the manuscript could be substantially improved.

      (1) The statistical analysis of multi-omics data needs clarification. Typically, analyses across multiple experimental groups require controlling the false discovery rate (FDR) simultaneously to avoid reporting false-positive findings. It would be very helpful if the authors could specify whether adjusted p-values were calculated using a multi-factorial statistical model (e.g., ~group) or through separate pairwise contrasts.

      (2) There are three separate points regarding MARP3 that could be improved. First, the authors report that MARP3-KO mice exhibit smaller increases in muscle mass after diaphragm denervation compared to wild-type mice (a -13% difference), indicating MARP3 likely promotes rather than attenuates hypertrophy. However, the manuscript currently states the opposite (lines 215-216); this interpretation should be revisited. Second, it would be valuable if the authors could provide data showing whether MARP3 transcript or protein levels change response to denervation - if they do not, discussing mechanisms behind the observed phenotype would help clarify the findings. Finally, given that some MARP-KO mice already exhibit baseline differences, employing and reporting the full two-way ANOVA ( including genotype × treatment interaction) would allow a direct statistical assessment of whether MARP deficiency modifies the muscle's response to stretch. This analysis would help clearly resolve any existing ambiguity.

      (3) The current presentation of multi-omics data is somewhat difficult to follow, making it challenging to determine whether observed changes occur at the transcript or protein level due to inconsistent gene/protein naming and capitalization (e.g., proper forms are mTOR, p70 S6K, 4E-BP1). Clearly organizing and presenting transcript and protein-level changes side-by-side, especially for key molecules discussed in later experiments, would make the data more accessible and provide clearer insights into the biology of titin-mediated mechanosensing.

      (4) The current analysis relies on total protein measurements downstream of mTOR, yet mTOR's primary mode of action is to change phosphorylation status. Because the authors have already generated a phosphoproteomic dataset, it would be very helpful to report - or at least comment on - whether known mTOR target phosphosites were detected and how they respond to denervation and rapamycin. Including even a brief summary of canonical sites such as S6K1 Thr389 or 4E‑BP1 Thr37/46 would make the link between mTOR activity and hypertrophy much clearer.

      (5) Finally, since rapamycin blocks only a subset of mTOR signalling, a brief discussion that distinguishes rapamycin‑sensitive from rapamycin‑insensitive pathways would be valuable. Clarifying whether diaphragm stretch relies exclusively on the sensitive branch or also engages the resistant branch would place the results in a broader mTOR context and deepen the mechanistic narrative.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Muscle hypertrophy is a major regulator of human health and performance. Here, van der Pilj and colleagues assess the role of the giant elastic protein, titin, in regulating the longitudinal hypertrophy of diaphragm muscles following denervation. Interestingly, the authors find an early hypertrophic response, with 30% new serial sarcomeres added within 6 days, followed by subsequent muscle atrophy. Using RBM20 mutant mice, which express a more compliant titin, the authors discovered that this longitudinal hypertrophy is mediated via titin mechanosensing. Through an omics approach, it is suggested that the Muscle ankyrin proteins may regulate this approach. Genetic ablation of MARPs 1-3 blocks the hypertrophic response, although single knockouts are more variable, suggesting extensive complementation between these titin binding proteins. Finally, it is found through the administration of rapamycin that the mTOR signalling pathway plays a role in longitudinal hypertrophic growth.

      Strengths:

      This paper is well written and uses an impressive suite of genetic mouse models to address this interesting question of what drives longitudinal muscle growth.

      Weaknesses:

      While the findings are of interest, they lack sufficient mechanistic detail in the current state to separate cross-sectional versus longitudinal hypertrophy. The authors have excellent tools such as the RBM20 model to functionally dissect mTOR signalling to these processes. It is also unclear if this process is unique to the diaphragm or is conserved across other muscle groups during eccentric contractions.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This important study examines the potential role of ARHGAP36 transcriptional regulation by FOXC1 in controlling sonic hedgehog signaling in human neuroblastoma. While there are many solid findings that strongly support this signaling pathway, there are some aspects of the study that are underdeveloped.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This thoughtful and thorough mechanistic and functional study reports ARHGAP36 as a direct transcriptional target of FOXC1, which regulates Hedgehog signaling (SUFU, SMO, and GLI family transcription factors) through modulation of PKAC. Clinical outcome data from patients with neuroblastoma, one of the most common extracranial solid malignancies in children, demonstrate that ARHGAP36 expression is associated with improved survival. Although this study largely represents a robust and near-comprehensive set of focused investigations on a novel target of FOXC1 activity, several significant omissions undercut the generalizability of the findings reported.

      (1) It is notable that the volcano plot in Figure 1a does now show evidence of canonical Hedgehog gene regulation, even though the subsequent studies in this paper clearly demonstrate that ARHGAP36 regulates Hedgehog signal transduction. Is this because canonical Hedgehog target genes (GLI1, PTCH1, SUFU) simply weren't labeled? Or is there a technical limitation that needs to be clarified? A note about Hedgehog target genes is made in conjunction with Table S1, but the justification or basis of defining these genes as Hedgehog targets is unclear. More broadly, it would be useful to see ontology analyses from these gene expression data to understand FOXC1 target genes more broadly. Ontology analyses are included in a supplementary table, but network visualizations would be much preferred.

      (2) Likewise, the ChIP-seq data in Figure 2 are under-analyzed, focusing only on the ARHGAP36 locus and not more broadly on the FOXC1 gene expression program. This is a missed opportunity that should be remedied with unbiased analyses intersecting differentially expressed FOXC1 peaks with differentially expressed genes from RNA-sequencing data displayed in Figure 1.

      (3) RNA-seq and ChIP-seq data strongly suggest that FOXC1 regulates ARHGAP36 expression, and the authors convincingly identify genomic segments at the ARHGAP36 locus where FOXC1 binds, but they do not test if FOXC1 specifically activates this locus through the creation of a luciferase or similar promoter reporter. Such a reagent and associated experiments would not only strengthen the primary argument of this investigation but could serve as a valuable resource for the community of scientists investigating FOXC1, ARHGAP36, the Hedgehog pathway, and related biological processes. CRISPRi targeting of the identified regions of the ARHGAP locus is a useful step in the right direction, but these experiments are not done in a way to demonstrate FOXC1 dependency.

      (4) It would be useful to see individual fluorescence channels in association with images in Figure 3b.

      (5) Perhaps the most significant limitation of this study is the omission of in vivo data, a shortcoming the authors partly mitigate through the incorporation of clinical outcome data from pediatric neuroblastoma patients in the context of ARHGAP36 expression. The authors also mention that high levels of ARHGAP36 expression were also detected in "specific CNS, breast, lung, and neuroendocrine tumors," but do not provide clinical outcome data for these cohorts. Such analyses would be useful to understand the generalizability of their findings across different cancer types. More broadly, how were high, medium, and low levels of ARHGAP36 expression identified? "Terciles" are mentioned, but such an approach is not experimentally rigorous, and RPA or related approaches (nested rank statistics, etc) are recommended to find optimal cutpoints for ARHGAP36 expression in the context of neuroblastoma, "specific CNS, breast, lung, and neuroendocrine" tumor outcomes.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      FOXC1 is a transcription factor essential for the development of neural crest-derived tissues and has been identified as a key biomarker in various cancers. However, the molecular mechanisms underlying its function remain poorly understood. In this study, the authors used RNA-seq, ChIP-seq, and FOXC1-overexpressing cell models to show that FOXC1 directly activates transcription of ARHGAP36 by binding to specific cis-regulatory elements. Elevated expression of FOXC1 or ARHGAP36 was found to enhance Hedgehog (Hh) signaling and suppress PKA activity. Notably, overexpression of either gene also conferred resistance to Smoothened (SMO) inhibitors, indicating ligand-independent activation of Hh signaling. Analysis of public gene expression datasets further revealed that ARHGAP36 expression correlates with improved 5-year overall survival in neuroblastoma patients. Together, these findings uncover a novel FOXC1-ARHGAP36 regulatory axis that modulates Hh and PKA signaling, offering new insights into both normal development and cancer progression.

      The main strengths of the study are:

      (1) Identification of a novel signaling pathway involving FOXC1 and ARHGAP36, which may play a critical role in both normal development and cancer biology.

      (2) Mechanistic investigation using RNA-seq, ChIP-seq, and functional assays to elucidate how FOXC1 regulates ARHGAP36 and how this axis modulates Hh signaling.

      (3) Clinical relevance demonstrated through analysis of neuroblastoma patient datasets, linking ARHGAP36 expression to improved 5-year overall survival.

      The main weaknesses of the study are:

      (1) Lack of validation in neuroblastoma models - the study does not directly test its findings in neuroblastoma cell models, limiting translational relevance.

      (2) Incomplete mechanistic insight into PKA regulation - the study does not fully elucidate how FOXC1-ARHGAP36 regulates PKAC activity at the molecular level.

      (3) Insufficient discussion of clinical outcome data - while ARHGAP36 expression correlates with improved survival in neuroblastoma, the manuscript lacks a clear interpretation of this unexpected finding, especially given the known oncogenic roles of FOXC1, ARHGAP36, and Hh signaling.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The focus of the research is to understand how transcription factors with high expression in neural crest cell-derived cancers (e.g., neuroblastoma) and roles in neural crest cell development function to promote malignancy. The focus is on the transcription factor FOXC1 and using murine cell culture, gain- and loss-of-function approaches, and ChIP profiling, among other techniques, to place PKAC inhibitor ARHGAP36 mechanistically between FOXC1 and another pathway associated with malignancy, Sonic Hedgehog (SHH).

      Strengths:

      Major strengths are the mechanistic approaches to identify FOXC1 direct targets, definitively showing that FOXC1 transcriptional regulation of ARHGAP36 leads to dysregulation of SHH signaling downstream of ARHGAP36 inhibition of PKC. Starting from a screen of Foxc1 OE to get to ARHGAP36 and then using genetic and pharmacological manipulation to work through the mechanism is very well done. There is data that will be of use to others studying FOXC1 in mesenchymal cell types, in particular, the FOXC1 ChIP-seq.

      Weaknesses:

      Work is almost all performed in NIH3T3 or similar cells (mouse cells, not patient or mouse-derived cancer cells), so the link to neuroblastoma that forms the major motivation of the work is not clear. The authors look at ARHGAP36 levels in association with the neuroblastoma patient survival; however, the finding, though interesting and quite compelling, is misaligned with what the literature shows about FOXC1 and SHH, their high expression is associated with increased malignancy (also maybe worse outcomes?). Therefore, ARHGAP36 expression may be more complicated in a tumor cell or may be unrelated to FOXC1 or SHH, leaving one to wonder what the work in NIH3T3 cells, though well done, is telling us about the mechanisms of FOXC1 as an oncogene in neuroblastoma cells or in any type of cancer cell. Does it really function as an SHH activator to drive tumor growth? The 'oncogenic relevance' and 'contribution to malignancy' claimed in the last paragraph of the introduction are currently weakly supported by the data as presented. This could be improved by studying some of these mechanisms in patient-derived neuroblastoma cells with high FOXC1 expression. Does inhibiting FOXC1 change SHH and ARHGAP36 and have any effect on cell proliferation or migration? Alternatively, does OE of FOXC1 in NIH3T3 cells increase their migration or stimulate proliferation in some way, and is this dependent on ARHGAP36 or SHH? Application of their mechanistic approaches in cancer cells or looking for hallmarks of cancer phenotypes with FOXC1 OE (and dependent on SHH or ARHGAP36) could help to make a link with cellular phenotypes of malignant cells.

    5. Author Response:

      Thank you for forwarding these helpful and thoughtful reviews - at a time when the review process in some journals can be a bit of a 'bloodsport', it is refreshing to receive such constructive and excellent comments.  We essentially agree with the key points the reviewers have made, and as an interim response provide clarification of two areas:

      1) As the reviewers highlighted, genome-wide analysis of ChIP-seq data from Foxc1 over-expression is indeed very worthwhile, and may offer insights for diverse malignancies where FOXC1 is over-expressed.  We have a manuscript in preparation integrating this data set with ATAC-and RNA-seq data to identify genes transcriptionally regulated by elevated levels of Foxc1.  In the interim, our full ChIP-seq data are available via the GEO accession number listed in the manuscript.

      2) Analysis in neuroblastoma cell lines and then xenografts is equally important. Experiments manipulating ARHGAP36 levels in human neuroblastoma cell lines are underway, however a detailed mechanistic understanding of how ARHGAP36 influences neuroblastoma prognosis will take time, and lies beyond the scope of the current manuscript.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study is important as it demonstrates that 4-aminoquinoline antimalarials antagonize artemisinin activity under physiologically relevant conditions. Using isogenic parasite lines and a chemical probe, the authors provide mechanistic insight and compelling evidence implicating PfCRT in this antagonism. However, some weaknesses have been identified that limit full interpretation of the findings, which are based solely on in vitro assays, though the results have implications that will be of importance in optimizing future antimalarial combination strategies.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study set out to investigate potential pharmacological drug-drug interactions between the two most common antimalarial classes, the artemisinins and quinolines. There is a strong rationale for this aim, because drugs from these classes are already widely used in Artemisinin Combination Therapies (ACTs) in the clinic, and drug combinations are an important consideration in the development of new medicines. Furthermore, whilst there is ample literature proposing many diverse mechanisms of action and resistance for the artemisinins and quinolines, it is generally accepted that the mechanisms for both classes involve heme metabolism in the parasite, and that artemisinin activity is dependent on activation by reduced heme. The study was designed to measure drug-drug interactions associated with a short pulse exposure (4 h) that is reminiscent of the short duration of artemisinin exposure obtained after in vivo dosing. Clear antagonism was observed between dihydroartemisinin (DHA) and chloroquine, which became even more extensive in chloroquine-resistant parasites. Antagonism was also observed in this assay for the more clinically-relevant ACT partner drugs piperaquine and amodiaquine, but not for other ACT partners mefloquine and lumefantrine, which don't share the 4-aminoquinoline structure or mode of action. Interestingly, chloroquine induced an artemisinin resistance phenotype in the standard in vitro Ring-stage Survival Assay, whereas this effect was not apparent for piperaquine.

      The authors also utilised a heme-reactive probe to demonstrate that the 4-aminoquinolines can inhibit heme-mediated activation of the probe within parasites, which suggests that the mechanism of antagonism involves the inactivation of heme, rendering it unable to activate the artemisinins. Measurement of protein ubiquitination showed reduced DHA-induced protein damage in the presence of chloroquine, which is also consistent with decreased heme-mediated activation, and/or with decreased DHA activity more generally.

      Overall, the study clearly demonstrates a mechanistic antagonism between DHA and 4-aminoquinoline antimalarials in vitro. It is interesting that this combination is successfully used to treat millions of malaria cases every year, which may raise questions about the clinical relevance of this finding. However, the conclusions in this paper are supported by multiple lines of evidence, and the data are clearly and transparently presented, leaving no doubt that DHA activity is compromised by the presence of chloroquine in vitro. It is perhaps fortunate that the clinical dosing regimens of 4-aminoquinoline-based ACTs have been sufficient to maintain clinical efficacy despite the non-optimal combination. Nevertheless, optimisation of antimalarial combinations and dosing regimens is becoming more important in the current era of increasing resistance to artemisinins and 4-aminoquinolines. Therefore, these findings should be considered when proposing new treatment regimens (including Tripe-ACTs) and the assays described in this study should be performed on new drug combinations that are proposed for new or existing antimalarial medicines.

      Strengths:

      This manuscript is clearly written, and the data presented are clear and complete. The key conclusions are supported by multiple lines of evidence, and most findings are replicated with multiple drugs within a class, and across multiple parasite strains, thus providing more confidence in the generalisability of these findings across the 4-aminoquinoline and peroxide drug classes.

      A key strength of this study was the focus on short pulse exposures to DHA (4 h in trophs and 3 h in rings), which is relevant to the in vivo exposure of artemisinins. Artemisinin resistance has had a significant impact on treatment outcomes in South-East Asia, and is now emerging in Africa, but is not detected using a 'standard' 48 or 72 h in vitro growth inhibition assay. It is only in the RSA (a short pulse of 3-6 h treatment of early ring stage parasites) that the resistance phenotype can be detected in vitro. Therefore, assays based on this short pulse exposure provide the most relevant approach to determine whether drug-drug interactions are likely to have a clinically relevant impact on DHA activity. These assays clearly showed antagonism between DHA and 4-aminoquinolines (chloroquine, piperaquine, amodiaquine, and ferroquine) in trophozoite stages. Interestingly, whilst chloroquine clearly induced an artemisinin-resistant phenotype in the RSA, piperaquine did not appear to impact the early ring stage activity of DHA, which may be fortunate considering that piperaquine is a currently recommended DHA partner drug in ACTs, whereas chloroquine is not!

      The evaluation of additional drug combinations at the end of this paper is a valuable addition, which increases the potential impact of this work. The finding of antagonism between piperaquine and OZ439 in trophozoites is consistent with the general interactions observed between peroxides and 4-aminoquinolines, and it would be interesting to see whether piperaquine impacts the ring-stage activity of OZ439.

      The evaluation of reactive heme in parasites using a fluorescent sensor, combined with the measurement of K48-linked ubiquitin, further supports the findings of this study, providing independent read-outs for the chloroquine-induced antagonism.

      The in-depth discussion of the interpretation and implications of the results is an additional strength of this manuscript. Whilst the discussion section is rather lengthy, there are important caveats to the interpretation of some of these results, and clear relevance to the future management of malaria that require these detailed explanations.

      Overall, this is a high-quality manuscript describing an important study that has implications for the selection of antimalarial combinations for new and existing malaria medicines.

      Weaknesses:

      This study is an in vitro study of parasite cultures, and therefore, caution should be taken when applying these findings to decisions about clinical combinations. The drug concentrations and exposure durations in these assays are intended to represent clinically relevant exposures, although it is recognised that the in vitro system is somewhat simplified and there may be additional factors that influence in vivo activity. I think this is reasonably well acknowledged in the manuscript.

      It is also important to recognise that the majority of the key findings regarding antagonism are based on trophozoite-stage parasites, and one must show caution when generalising these findings to other stages or scenarios. For example, piperaquine showed clear antagonism in trophozoite stages, but not in ring stages under these assay conditions.

      The key weakness in this manuscript is the over-interpretation of the mechanistic studies that implicate heme-mediated artemisinin activation as the mechanism underpinning antagonism by chloroquine. In particular, the manuscript title focuses on heme-mediated activation of artemisinins, but this study did not directly measure the activation of artemisinins. The data obtained from the activation of the fluorescent probe are generally supportive of chloroquine suppressing the heme-mediated activation of artemisinins, and I think this is the most likely explanation, but there are significant caveats that undermine this conclusion. Primarily, the inconsistency between the fluorescence profile in the chemical reactions and the cell-based assay raises questions about the accuracy of this readout. In the chemical reaction, mefloquine and chloroquine showed identical inhibition of fluorescence, whereas piperaquine had minimal impact. On the contrary, in the cell, chloroquine and piperaquine had similar impacts on fluorescence, but mefloquine had minimal impact. This inconsistency indicates that the cellular fluorescence based on this sensor does not give a simple direct readout of the reactivity of ferrous heme, and therefore, these results should be interpreted with caution. Indeed, the correlation between fluorescence and antagonism for the tested drugs is a correlation, not causation. There could be several reasons for the disconnect between the chemical and biological results, either via additional mechanisms that quench fluorescence, or the presence of biomolecules that alter the oxidation state or coordination chemistry of heme or other potential catalysts of this sensor. It is possible that another factor that influences the H-FluNox fluorescence in cells also influences the DHA activity in cells, leading to the correlation with activity. It should be noted that H-FluNox is not a chemical analogue of artemisinins. Its activation relies on Fenton-like chemistry, but with an N-O rather than O-O bond, and it possesses very different steric and electronic substituents around the reactive centre, which are known to alter reactivity to different iron sources. Despite these limitations, the authors have provided reasonable justification for the use of this probe to directly visualise heme reactivity in cells, and the results are still informative, but additional caution should be provided in the interpretation, and the results are not conclusive enough to justify the current title of the paper.

      Another interesting finding that was not elaborated by the authors is the impact of chloroquine on the DHA dose-response curves from the ring stage assays. Detection of artemisinin resistance in the RSA generally focuses on the % survival at high DHA concentrations (700 nM) as there is minimal shift in the IC50 (see Figure 2), however, chloroquine clearly induces a shift in the IC50 (~5-fold), where the whole curve is shifted to the right, whereas the increase in % survival is relatively small. This different profile suggests that the mechanism of chloroquine-induced antagonism is different from the mechanism of artemisinin resistance. Current evidence regarding the mechanism of artemisinin resistance generally points towards decreased heme-mediated drug activation due to a decrease in hemoglobin uptake, which should be analogous to the decrease in heme-mediated drug activation caused by chloroquine. However, these different dose-response curves suggest different mechanisms are primarily responsible. Additional mechanisms have been proposed for artemisinin resistance, involving redox or heat stress responses, proteostatic responses, mitochondrial function, dormancy, and PI3K signaling, among others. Whilst the H-FluNox probe generally supports the idea that chloroquine suppresses heme-mediated DHA activation, it remains plausible that chloroquine could induce these, or other, cellular responses that suppress DHA activity.

      The other potential weakness in the current manuscript is the interpretation of the OZ439 clinical data. Whilst the observed interaction with piperaquine and ferroquine may have been a contributing factor, it should also be recognised that the low pharmacokinetic exposure in these studies was the primary reason for treatment failure (Macintyre 2017).

      Impact:

      This study has important implications for the selection of drugs to form combinations for the treatment of malaria. The overall findings of antagonism between peroxide antimalarials and 4-aminoquinolines in the trophozoite stage are robust, and this carries across to the ring stage for chloroquine (but not piperaquine).

      The manuscript also provides a plausible mechanism to explain the antagonism, although future work will be required to further explore the details of this mechanism and to rule out alternative factors that may contribute.

      Overall, this is an important contribution to the field and provides a clear justification for the evaluation of potential drug combinations in relevant in vitro assays before clinical testing.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript by Rosenthal and Goldberg investigates interactions between artemisinins and their quinoline partner drugs currently used for treating uncomplicated Plasmodium falciparum malaria. The authors show that chloroquine (CQ), piperaquine, and amodiaquine antagonize dihydroartemisinin (DHA) activity, and in CQ-resistant parasites, the interaction is described as "superantagonism," linked to the pfcrt genotype. Mechanistically, application of the heme-reactive probe H-FluNox indicates that quinolines render cytosolic heme chemically inert, thereby reducing peroxide activation. The work is further extended to triple ACTs and ozonide-quinoline combinations, with implications for artemisinin-based combination therapy (ACT) design, including triple ACTs.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is clearly written, methodologically careful, and addresses a clinically relevant question. The pulsing assay format more accurately models in vivo artemisinin exposure than conventional 72-hour assays, and the use of H-FluNox and Ac-H-FluNox probes provides mechanistic depth by distinguishing chemically active versus inert heme. These elements represent important refinements beyond prior studies, adding nuance to our understanding of artemisinin-quinoline interactions.

      Weaknesses:

      Several points warrant consideration. The novelty of the work is somewhat incremental, as antagonism between artemisinins and quinolines is well established. Multiple prior studies using standard fixed-ratio isobologram assays have shown that DHA exhibits indifferent or antagonistic interactions with chloroquine, piperaquine, and amodiaquine (e.g., Davis et al., 2006; Fivelman et al., 2007; Muangnoicharoen et al., 2009), with recent work highlighting the role of parasite genetic background, including pfcrt and pfmdr1, in modulating these interactions (Eastman et al., 2016). High-throughput drug screens likewise identify quinoline-artemisinin combinations as mostly antagonistic. The present manuscript adds refinement by applying pulsed-exposure assays and heme probes rather than establishing antagonism de novo.

      The dataset focuses on several parasite lines assayed in vitro, so claims about broad clinical implications should be tempered, and the discussion could more clearly address how in vitro antagonism may or may not translate to clinical outcomes. The conclusion that artemisinins are predominantly activated in the cytoplasm is intriguing but relies heavily on Ac-H-FluNox data, which may have limitations in accessing the digestive vacuole and should be acknowledged explicitly. The term "superantagonism" is striking but may appear rhetorical; clarifying its reproducibility across replicates and providing a mechanistic definition would strengthen the framing. Finally, some discussion points, such as questioning the clinical utility of DHA-PPQ, should be moderated to better align conclusions with the presented data while acknowledging the complexity of in vivo pharmacology and clinical outcomes.

      Despite these mild reservations, the data are interesting and of high quality and provide important new information for the field.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors present an in vitro evaluation of drug-drug interactions between artemisinins and quinoline antimalarials, as an important aspect for screening the current artemisinin-based combination therapies for Plasmodium falciparum. Using a revised pulsing assay, they report antagonism between dihydroartemisinin (DHA) and several quinolines, including chloroquine, piperaquine (PPQ), and amodiaquine. This antagonism is increased in CQ-resistant strains in isobologram analyses. Moreover, CQ co-treatment was found to induce artemisinin resistance even in parasites lacking K13 mutations during the ring-stage survival assay. This implies that drug-drug interactions, not just genetic mutations, can influence resistance phenotypes. By using a chemical probe for reactive heme, the authors demonstrate that quinolines inhibit artemisinin activation by rendering cytosolic heme chemically inert, thereby impairing the cytotoxic effects of DHA. The study also observed negative interactions in triple-drug regimens (e.g., DHA-PPQ-Mefloquine) and in combinations involving OZ439, a next-generation peroxide antimalarial. Taken together, these findings raise significant concerns regarding the compatibility of artemisinin and quinoline combinations, which may promote resistance or reduce efficacy.

      Throughout the manuscript, no combinations were synergistic, which necessitates comparing the claims to a synergistic combination as a control. The lack of this positive control makes it difficult to contextualize the observed antagonism. Including a known synergistic pair (e.g., artemisinin + lumefantrine) throughout the study would have provided a useful benchmark to assess the relative impact of the drug interactions described.

      Strengths:

      This study demonstrates the following strengths:

      (1) The use of a pulsed in vitro assay that is more physiologically relevant than the traditional 48h or 72h assays.

      (2) Small molecule probes, H-FluNox, and Ac-H-FluNox to detect reactive cytosolic heme, demonstrating that quinolines render heme inert and thereby block DHA activation.

      (3) Evaluates not only traditional combinations but also triple-drug combinations and next-generation artemisinins like OZ439. This broad scope increases the study's relevance to current treatment strategies and future drug development.

      (4) By using the K13 wild-type parasites, the study suggests that resistance phenotypes can emerge from drug-drug interactions alone, without requiring genetic resistance markers.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) No combinations are shown as synergistic: it could be valuable to have a combination that shows synergy as a positive control (e.g, artemisinin + lumefantrine) throughout the manuscript. The absence of a synergistic control combination in the experimental design makes it more challenging to evaluate the relative impact of the described drug interactions.

      (2) Evaluation of the choice of drug-drug interactions: How generalizable are the findings across a broad range of combinations, especially those with varied modes of action?

      (3) The study would also benefit from a characterization of the molecular basis for the observed heme inactivation by quinolines to support this hypothesis - while the probe experiments are valuable, they do not fully elucidate how quinolines specifically alter heme chemistry at the molecular level.

      (4) Suggestion of alternative combinations that show synergy could have improved the significance of the work.

      (5) All data are derived from in vitro experiments, without accompanying an in vivo validation. While the pulsing assay improves physiological relevance, it still cannot fully capture the complexity of drug pharmacokinetics, host-parasite interactions, or immune responses present in living organisms.

      (6) The absence of pharmacokinetic/pharmacodynamic modeling leaves questions about how the observed antagonism would manifest under real-world dosing conditions.

    5. Author response:

      Reviewer #1:

      We thank the reviewer for their thoughtful summary of this manuscript. It is important to note that DHA-PPQ did show antagonism in RSAs. In this modified RSA, 200 nM PPQ alone inhibited growth of PPQ-sensitive parasites approximately 20%. If DHA and PPQ were additive, then we would expect that addition of 200 nM PPQ would shift the DHA dose response curve to the left and result in a lower DHA IC50. Please refer to Figure 4a and b as examples of additive relationships in dose-response assays. We observed no significant shift in IC50 values between DHA alone and DHA + PPQ. This suggests antagonism, albeit not to the extent seen with CQ. We will modify the manuscript to emphasize this point. As the reviewer pointed out, it is fortunate that despite being antagonistic, clinically used artemisinin-4-aminoquinoline combinations are effective, provided that parasites are sensitive to the 4-aminoquinoline. It is possible that superantagonism is required to observe a noticeable effect on treatment efficacy (Sutherland et al. 2003 and Kofoed et al. 2003), but that classical antagonism may still have silent consequences. For example, if PPQ blocks some DHA activation, this might result in DHA-PPQ acting more like a pseudo-monotherapy. However, as the reviewer pointed out, while our data suggest that DHA-PPQ and AS-ADQ are “non-optimal” combinations, the clinical consequences of these interactions are unclear. We will modify the manuscript to emphasize the later point.

      While the Ac-H-FluNox and ubiquitin data point to a likely mechanism for DHA-quinoline antagonism, we agree that there are other possible mechanisms to explain this interaction.  We will temper the title and manuscript to reflect these limitations. Though we tried to measure DHA activation in parasites directly, these attempts were unsuccessful. We acknowledge that the chemistry of DHA and Ac-H-FluNox activation is not identical and that caution should be taken when interpreting these data. Nevertheless, we believe that Ac-H-FluNox is the best currently available tool to measure “active heme” in live parasites and is the best available proxy to assess DHA activation in live parasites. Both in vitro and in parasite studies point to a roll for CQ in modulating heme, though an exact mechanism will require further examination. Similar to the reviewer, we were perplexed by the differences observed between in vitro and in parasite assays with PPQ and MFQ. We proposed possible hypotheses to explain these discrepancies in the discussion section. Interestingly, our data corelate well with hemozoin inhibition assays in which all three antimalarials inhibit hemozoin formation in solution, but only CQ and PPQ inhibit hemozoin formation in parasites. In both assays, in-parasite experiments are likely to be more informative for mechanistic assessment.

      It remains unclear why K13 genotype influences RSA values, but not early ring DHA IC50 values. In K13<sup>WT</sup> parasites, both RSA values and DHA IC50 values were increased 3-5 fold upon addition of CQ. This suggests that CQ-mediated resistance is more robust than that conferred by K13 genotype. However, this does not necessarily suggest a different resistance mechanism. We acknowledge that in addition to modulating heme, it is possible that CQ may enhance DHA survival by promoting parasite stress responses. Future studies will be needed to test this alternative hypothesis. This limitation will be acknowledged in the manuscript. We will also address the reviewer’s point that other factors, including poor pharmacokinetic exposure, contributed to OZ439-PPQ treatment failure.

      Reviewer #2:

      We appreciate the positive feedback. We agree that there have been previous studies, many of which we cited, assessing interactions of these antimalarials. We also acknowledge that previous work, including our own, has shown that parasite genetics can alter drug-drug interactions. We will include the author’s recommended citations to the list of references that we cited. Importantly, our work was unique not only for utilizing a pulsing format, but also for revealing a superantagonistic phenotype, assessing interactions in an RSA format, and investigating a mechanism to explain these interactions. We agree with the reviewer that implications from this in vitro work should be cautious, but hope that this work contributes another dimension to critical thinking about drug-drug interactions for future combination therapies. We will modify the manuscript to temper any unintended recommendations or implications.

      The reviewer notes that we conclude “artemisinins are predominantly activated in the cytoplasm”. We recognize that the site of artemisinin activation is contentious. We were very clear to state that our data combined with others suggest that artemisinins can be activated in the parasite cytoplasm. We did not state that this is the primary site of activation. We were clear to point out that technical limitations may prevent Ac-H-FluNox signal in the digestive vacuole, but determined that low pH alone could not explain the absence of a digestive vacuole signal.

      With regard to the “reproducibility” and “mechanistic definition” of superantagonism, we observed what we defined as a one-sided superantagonistic relationship for three different parasites (Dd2, Dd2 PfCRT<sup>Dd2</sup>, and Dd2 K13<sup>R539T</sup>) for a total of nine independent replicates. In the text, we define that these isoboles are unique in that they had mean ΣFIC50 values > 2.4 and peak ΣFIC50 values >4 with points extending upward instead of curving back to the axis. As further evidence of the reproducibility of this relationship, we show that CQ has a significant rescuing effect on parasite survival to DHA as assessed by RSAs and IC50 values in early rings.

      Reviewer #3:

      We thank the reviewer for their positive feedback. We acknowledge that no combinations tested in this manuscript were synergistic. However, two combinations, DHA-MFQ and DHA-LM, were additive, which provides context for contextualizing antagonistic relationships. We have previously reported synergistic and additive isobolograms for peroxide-proteasome inhibitor combinations using this same pulsing format (Rosenthal and Ng 2021). These published results will be cited in the manuscript.

      We believe that these findings are specific to 4-aminoquinoline-peroxide combinations, and that these findings cannot be generalized to antimalarials with different mechanisms of action. Note that the aryl amino alcohols, MFQ and LM, were additive with DHA. Since the mechanism of action of MFQ and LM are poorly understood, it is difficult to speculate on a mechanism underlying these interactions.

      We agree with the reviewer that while the heme probe may provide some mechanistic insight to explain DHA-quinoline interactions, there is much more to learn about CQ-heme chemistry, particularly within parasites.

      The focus of this manuscript was to add a new dimension to considerations about pairings for combination therapies. It is outside the scope of this manuscript to suggest alternative combinations. However, we agree that synergistic combinations would likely be more strategic clinically.

      An in vitro setup allows us to eliminate many confounding variables in order to directly assess the impact of partner drugs on DHA activity. However, we agree that in vivo conditions are incredibly more complex, and explicitly state this.

      We agree that in the future, modeling studies could provide insight into how antagonism may contribute to real-world efficacy. This is outside the scope of our studies.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study presents vassi, a Python package that streamlines the preparation of training data for machine-learning-based classification of social behaviors in animal groups. This package is a valuable resource for researchers with computational expertise, implementing a framework for the detection of directed social interactions within a group and an interactive tool for reviewing and correcting behavior detections. However, the strength of evidence that the method is widely applicable remains incomplete, performance on benchmark dyadic datasets is comparable to existing approaches, and performance scores on collective behavioral datasets are low. While the package can analyze behavior in large groups of animals, it only outputs dyadic interactions within these groups and does not account for behaviors where more than two animals may be interacting.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Nührenberg et al., describe vassi, a Python package for mutually exclusive behavioral classification of social behaviors. This package imports and organizes trajectory data and manual behavior labels, and then computes feature representations for use with available Python machine learning-based classification tools. These representations include all possible dyadic interactions within an animal group, enabling classification of social behaviors between pairs of animals at a distance. The authors validate this package by reproducing the behavior classification performance on a previously published dyadic mouse dataset, and demonstrate its use on a novel cichlid group dataset. The authors have created a package that is agnostic to the mechanism of tracking and will reduce the barrier of data preparation for machine learning, which can be a stumbling block for non-experts. The package also evaluates the classification performance with helpful visualizations and provides a tool for inspection of behavior classification results.

      Strengths:

      (1) A major contribution of this paper was creating a framework to extend social behavior classification to groups of animals such that the actor and receiver can be any member of the group, regardless of distance. To implement this framework, the authors created a Python package and an extensive documentation site, which is greatly appreciated. This package should be useful to researchers with a knowledge of Python, virtual environments, and machine learning, as it relies on scripts rather than a GUI interface and may facilitate the development of new machine learning algorithms for behavior classification.

      (2) The authors include modules for correctly creating train and test sets, and evaluation of classifier performance. This is extremely useful. Beyond evaluation, they have created a tool for manual review and correction of annotations. And they demonstrate the utility of this validation tool in the case of rare behaviors where correct classification is difficult, but the number of examples to review is reasonable.

      (3) The authors provide well-commented step-by-step instructions for the use of the package in the documentation.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) While the classification algorithm was not the subject of the paper, as the authors used off-the-shelf methods and were only able to reproduce the performance of the CALMS21 dyadic dataset, they did not improve upon previously published results. Furthermore, the results from the novel cichlid fish dataset, including a macro F1 score of 0.45, did not compellingly show that the workflow described in the paper produces useful behavioral classifications for groups of interacting animals performing rare social behaviors. I commend the authors for transparently reporting the results both with the macro F1 scores and the confusion matrices for the classifiers. The mutually exclusive, all-vs-all data annotation scheme of rare behaviors results in extremely unbalanced datasets such that categorical classification becomes a difficult problem. To try to address the performance limitation, the authors built a validation tool that allows the user to manually review the behavior predictions.

      (2) The pipeline makes a few strong assumptions that should be made more explicit in the paper.

      First, the behavioral classifiers are mutually exclusive and one-to-one. An individual animal can only be performing one behavior at any given time, and that behavior has only one recipient. These assumptions are implicit in how the package creates the data structure, and should be made clearer to the reader. Additionally, the authors emphasize that they have extended behavior classification to animal groups, but more accurately, they have extended behavioral classification to all possible pairs within a group.

      Second, the package expects comprehensive behavior labeling of the tracking data as input. Any frames not manually labeled are assumed to be the background category. Additionally, the package will interpolate through any missing segments of tracking data and assign the background behavioral category to those trajectory segments as well. The effects of these assumptions are not explored in the paper, which may limit the utility of this workflow for naturalistic environments.

      (3) Finally, the authors described the package as a tool for biologists and ethologists, but the level of Python and machine learning expertise required to use the package to develop a novel behavior classification workflow may be beyond the ability of many biologists. More accessible example notebooks would help address this problem.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors present a novel supervised behavioral analysis pipeline (vassi), which extends beyond previously available packages with its innate support of groups of any number of organisms. Importantly, this program also allows for iterative improvement upon models through revised behavioral annotation.

      Strengths:

      vassi's support of groups of any number of animals is a major advancement for those studying collective social behavior. Additionally, the built-in ability to choose different base models and iteratively train them is an important advancement beyond current pipelines. vassi is also producing behavioral classifiers with similar precision/recall metrics for dyadic behavior as currently published packages using similar algorithms.

      Weaknesses:

      vassi's performance on group behaviors is potentially too low to proceed with (F1 roughly 0.2 to 0.6). Different sources have slightly different definitions, but an F1 score of 0.7 or 0.8 is often considered good, while anything lower than 0.5 can typically be considered bad. There has been no published consensus within behavioral neuroscience (that I know of) on a minimum F1 score for use. Collective behavioral research is extremely challenging to perform due to hand annotation times, and there needs to be a discussion in the field as to the trade-off between throughput and accuracy before these scores can be either used or thrown out the door. It would also be useful to see the authors perform a few rounds of iterative corrections on these classifiers to see if performance is improved.

      While the interaction networks in Figure 2b-c look visually similar based on interaction pairs, the weights of the interactions appear to be quite different between hand and automated annotations. This could lead to incorrect social network metrics, which are increasingly popular in collective social behavior analysis. It would be very helpful to see calculated SNA metrics for hand versus machine scoring to see whether or not vassi is reliable for these datasets.

    4. Author response:

      We thank the reviewers and editors for their assessment and for identifying the main issues of our framework for automated classification of social interactions in animal groups. Based on the reviewers’ feedback, we would like to briefly summarize three areas in which we aim to improve both our manuscript and the software package.

      Firstly, we will revise our manuscript to better define the scope of our classification pipeline. As reviewer #1 correctly points out, our framework is built around the scoring and analysis of dyadic interactions within groups, rather than emergent group-level or collective behavior. This structure more faithfully reflects the way that researchers score social behaviors within groups, following focal individuals while logging all directed interactions of interest (e.g., grooming, aggression or courtship), and with whom these interactions are performed. Indeed, animal groups are often described as social networks of interconnected nodes (individuals), in which the connections between these nodes are derived from pairwise metrics, for example proximity or interaction frequency. For this reason, vassi does not aim to classify higher-level group behavior (i.e., the emergent, collective state of all group members) but rather the pair-wise interactions typically measured. Our classification pipeline replicates this structure, and therefore produces raw data that is familiar to researchers that study social animal groups with a focus on pairwise interactions. Since this may be seen as a limitation when studying group-level behavior (with more than two individuals involved, usually undirected), we will make this distinction between different forms of social interaction more clear in the introduction.

      Secondly, we acknowledge the low performance of our classification pipeline on the cichlid group dataset. We included analyses in the first version of our manuscript that, in our opinion, can justify the use of our pipeline in such cases (comparison to proximity networks), but we understand the reviewers' concerns. Based on their comments, we will perform additional analyses to further assess whether the use of vassi on this dataset results in valid behavioral metrics. This may, for example, include a comparison of per-individual SNA metrics between pipeline results and ground truth, or equivalent comparisons on the level of group structure (e.g., hierarchy derived from aggression counts). We thank reviewer #2 for these suggestions. As the reviewers further point out, there is no consensus yet on when the performance of behavioral classifiers is sufficient for reliable downstream analyses, and although this manuscript does not have the scope to discuss this for the field, it may help to substantiate discussion in future research.

      Finally, we appreciate the reviewers feedback on vassi as a methodological framework and will address the remaining software-related issues by improving the documentation and accessibility of our example scripts. This will reduce the technical hurdle to use vassi in further research. Additionally, we aim to incorporate a third dataset to demonstrate how our framework can be used for iterative training on a sparsely annotated dataset of groups, while broadening the taxonomic scope of our manuscript.

  2. Oct 2025
    1. eLife Assessment

      This study provides useful insights into the ways in which germinal center B cell metabolism, particularly lipid metabolism, affects cellular responses. The authors use sophisticated mouse models to demonstrate that ether lipids are relevant for B cell homeostasis and efficient humoral responses. Although the data were collected from in vitro and in vivo experiments and analyzed using solid and validated methodology, more careful experiments and extensive revision of the manuscript will be required to strengthen the authors' conclusions.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      In this manuscript, Hoon Cho et al. presents a novel investigation into the role of PexRAP, an intermediary in ether lipid biosynthesis, in B cell function, particularly during the Germinal Center (GC) reaction. The authors profile lipid composition in activated B cells both in vitro and in vivo, revealing the significance of PexRAP. Using a combination of animal models and imaging mass spectrometry, they demonstrate that PexRAP is specifically required in B cells. They further establish that its activity is critical upon antigen encounter, shaping B cell survival during the GC reaction.

      Mechanistically, they show that ether lipid synthesis is necessary to modulate reactive oxygen species (ROS) levels and prevent membrane peroxidation.

      Highlights of the Manuscript:

      The authors perform exhaustive imaging mass spectrometry (IMS) analyses of B cells, including GC B cells, to explore ether lipid metabolism during the humoral response. This approach is particularly noteworthy given the challenge of limited cell availability in GC reactions, which often hampers metabolomic studies. IMS proves to be a valuable tool in overcoming this limitation, allowing detailed exploration of GC metabolism.

      The data presented is highly relevant, especially in light of recent studies suggesting a pivotal role for lipid metabolism in GC B cells. While these studies primarily focus on mitochondrial function, this manuscript uniquely investigates peroxisomes, which are linked to mitochondria and contribute to fatty acid oxidation (FAO). By extending the study of lipid metabolism beyond mitochondria to include peroxisomes, the authors add a critical dimension to our understanding of B cell biology.

      Additionally, the metabolic plasticity of B cells poses challenges for studying metabolism, as genetic deletions from the beginning of B cell development often result in compensatory adaptations. To address this, the authors employ an acute loss-of-function approach using two conditional, cell-type-specific gene inactivation mouse models: one targeting B cells after the establishment of a pre-immune B cell population (Dhrs7b^f/f, huCD20-CreERT2) and the other during the GC reaction (Dhrs7b^f/f; S1pr2-CreERT2). This strategy is elegant and well-suited to studying the role of metabolism in B cell activation.

      Overall, this manuscript is a significant contribution to the field, providing robust evidence for the fundamental role of lipid metabolism during the GC reaction and unveiling a novel function for peroxisomes in B cells. However, several major points need to be addressed:

      Major Comments:

      Figures 1 and 2

      The authors conclude, based on the results from these two figures, that PexRAP promotes the homeostatic maintenance and proliferation of B cells. In this section, the authors first use a tamoxifen-inducible full Dhrs7b knockout (KO) and afterwards Dhrs7bΔ/Δ-B model to specifically characterize the role of this molecule in B cells. They characterize the B and T cell compartments using flow cytometry (FACS) and examine the establishment of the GC reaction using FACS and immunofluorescence. They conclude that B cell numbers are reduced, and the GC reaction is defective upon stimulation, showing a reduction in the total percentage of GC cells, particularly in the light zone (LZ).

      The analysis of the steady-state B cell compartment should also be improved. This includes a more detailed characterization of MZ and B1 populations, given the role of lipid metabolism and lipid peroxidation in these subtypes.

      Suggestions for Improvement:

      - B Cell compartment characterization: A deeper characterization of the B cell compartment in non-immunized mice is needed, including analysis of Marginal Zone (MZ) maturation and a more detailed examination of the B1 compartment. This is especially important given the role of specific lipid metabolism in these cell types. The phenotyping of the B cell compartment should also include an analysis of immunoglobulin levels on the membrane, considering the impact of lipids on membrane composition.

      - GC Response Analysis Upon Immunization: The GC response characterization should include additional data on the T cell compartment, specifically the presence and function of Tfh cells. In Fig. 1H, the distribution of the LZ appears strikingly different. However, the authors have not addressed this in the text. A more thorough characterization of centroblasts and centrocytes using CXCR4 and CD86 markers is needed.<br /> The gating strategy used to characterize GC cells (GL7+CD95+ in IgD− cells) is suboptimal. A more robust analysis of GC cells should be performed in total B220+CD138− cells.

      - The authors claim that Dhrs7b supports the homeostatic maintenance of quiescent B cells in vivo and promotes effective proliferation. This conclusion is primarily based on experiments where CTV-labeled PexRAP-deficient B cells were adoptively transferred into μMT mice (Fig. 2D-F). However, we recommend reviewing the flow plots of CTV in Fig. 2E, as they appear out of scale. More importantly, the low recovery of PexRAP-deficient B cells post-adoptive transfer weakens the robustness of the results and is insufficient to conclusively support the role of PexRAP in B cell proliferation in vivo.

      - In vitro stimulation experiments: These experiments need improvement. The authors have used anti-CD40 and BAFF for B cell stimulation; however, it would be beneficial to also include anti-IgM in the stimulation cocktail. In Fig. 2G, CTV plots do not show clear defects in proliferation, yet the authors quantify the percentage of cells with more than three divisions. These plots should clearly display the gating strategy. Additionally, details about histogram normalization and potential defects in cell numbers are missing. A more in-depth analysis of apoptosis is also required to determine whether the observed defects are due to impaired proliferation or reduced survival.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Cho et al. investigate the role of ether lipid biosynthesis in B cell biology, particularly focusing on GC B cell, by inducible deletion of PexRAP, an enzyme responsible for the synthesis of ether lipids.

      Strengths:

      Overall, the data are well-presented, the paper is well-written and provides valuable mechanistic insights into the importance of PexRAP enzyme in GC B cell proliferation.

      Weaknesses:

      More detailed mechanisms of the impaired GC B cell proliferation by PexRAP deficiency remain to be further investigated. In the minor part, there are issues with the interpretation of the data which might cause confusion for the readers.

    4. Author response:

      eLife Assessment

      This study provides useful insights into the ways in which germinal center B cell metabolism, particularly lipid metabolism, affects cellular responses. The authors use sophisticated mouse models to demonstrate that ether lipids are relevant for B cell homeostasis and efficient humoral responses. Although the data were collected from in vitro and in vivo experiments and analyzed using solid and validated methodology, more careful experiments and extensive revision of the manuscript will be required to strengthen the authors' conclusions.

      In addition to praise for the eLife system and transparency (public posting of the reviews; along with an opportunity to address them), we are grateful for the decision of the Editors to select this submission for in-depth peer review and to the referees for the thoughtful and constructive comments.

      In overview, we mostly agree with the specific comments and evaluation of strengths of what the work adds as well as with indications of limitations and caveats that apply to the breadth of conclusions. One can view these as a combination of weaknesses, of instances of reading more into the work than what it says, and of important future directions opened up by the findings we report. Regarding the positives, we appreciate the reviewers' appraisal that our work unveils a novel mechanism in which the peroxisomal enzyme PexRAP mediates B cell intrinsic ether lipid synthesis and promotes a humoral immune response. We are gratified by a recognition that a main contribution of the work is to show that a spatial lipidomic analysis can set the stage for discovery of new molecular processes in biology that are supported by using 2-dimensional imaging mass spectrometry techniques and cell type specific conditional knockout mouse models.

      By and large, the technical issues are items we will strive to improve. Ultimately, an over-arching issue in research publications in this epoch are the questions "when is enough enough?" and "what, or how much, advance will be broadly important in moving biological and biomedical research forward?" It appears that one limitation troubling the reviews centers on whether the mechanism of increased ROS and multi-modal death - supported most by the in vitro evidence - applies to germinal center B cells in situ, versus either a mechanism for decreased GC that mostly applies to the pre-GC clonal amplification (or recruitment into GC). Overall, we agree that this leap could benefit from additional evidence - but as resources ended we instead leave that question for the future other than the findings with S1pr2-CreERT2-driven deletion leading to less GC B cells. While we strove to be very careful in framing such a connection as an inference in the posted manuscript, we will revisit the matter via rechecking the wording when revising the text after trying to get some specific evidence.  

      In the more granular part of this provisional response (below), we will outline our plan prompted by the reviewers but also comment on a few points of disagreement or refinement (longer and more detailed explanation). The plan includes more detailed analysis of B cell compartments, surface level of immunoglobulin, Tfh cell population, a refinement of GC B cell markers, and the ex vivo GC B cell analysis for ROS, proliferation, and cell death. We will also edit the text to provide more detailed information and clarify our interpretation to prevent the confusion of our results.  At a practical level, some evidence likely is technologically impractical, and an unfortunate determinant is the lack of further sponsored funding for further work. The detailed point-by-point response to the reviewer’s comments is below.  

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      In this manuscript, Sung Hoon Cho et al. presents a novel investigation into the role of PexRAP, an intermediary in ether lipid biosynthesis, in B cell function, particularly during the Germinal Center (GC) reaction. The authors profile lipid composition in activated B cells both in vitro and in vivo, revealing the significance of PexRAP. Using a combination of animal models and imaging mass spectrometry, they demonstrate that PexRAP is specifically required in B cells. They further establish that its activity is critical upon antigen encounter, shaping B cell survival during the GC reaction.

      Mechanistically, they show that ether lipid synthesis is necessary to modulate reactive oxygen species (ROS) levels and prevent membrane peroxidation.

      Highlights of the Manuscript:

      The authors perform exhaustive imaging mass spectrometry (IMS) analyses of B cells, including GC B cells, to explore ether lipid metabolism during the humoral response. This approach is particularly noteworthy given the challenge of limited cell availability in GC reactions, which often hampers metabolomic studies. IMS proves to be a valuable tool in overcoming this limitation, allowing detailed exploration of GC metabolism.

      The data presented is highly relevant, especially in light of recent studies suggesting a pivotal role for lipid metabolism in GC B cells. While these studies primarily focus on mitochondrial function, this manuscript uniquely investigates peroxisomes, which are linked to mitochondria and contribute to fatty acid oxidation (FAO). By extending the study of lipid metabolism beyond mitochondria to include peroxisomes, the authors add a critical dimension to our understanding of B cell biology.

      Additionally, the metabolic plasticity of B cells poses challenges for studying metabolism, as genetic deletions from the beginning of B cell development often result in compensatory adaptations. To address this, the authors employ an acute loss-of-function approach using two conditional, cell-type-specific gene inactivation mouse models: one targeting B cells after the establishment of a pre-immune B cell population (Dhrs7b^f/f, huCD20-CreERT2) and the other during the GC reaction (Dhrs7b^f/f; S1pr2-CreERT2). This strategy is elegant and well-suited to studying the role of metabolism in B cell activation.

      Overall, this manuscript is a significant contribution to the field, providing robust evidence for the fundamental role of lipid metabolism during the GC reaction and unveiling a novel function for peroxisomes in B cells.

      We appreciate these positive reactions and response, and agree with the overview and summary of the paper's approaches and strengths.

      However, several major points need to be addressed:

      Major Comments:

      Figures 1 and 2

      The authors conclude, based on the results from these two figures, that PexRAP promotes the homeostatic maintenance and proliferation of B cells. In this section, the authors first use a tamoxifen-inducible full Dhrs7b knockout (KO) and afterwards Dhrs7bΔ/Δ-B model to specifically characterize the role of this molecule in B cells. They characterize the B and T cell compartments using flow cytometry (FACS) and examine the establishment of the GC reaction using FACS and immunofluorescence. They conclude that B cell numbers are reduced, and the GC reaction is defective upon stimulation, showing a reduction in the total percentage of GC cells, particularly in the light zone (LZ).

      The analysis of the steady-state B cell compartment should also be improved. This includes a more detailed characterization of MZ and B1 populations, given the role of lipid metabolism and lipid peroxidation in these subtypes.

      Suggestions for Improvement:

      B Cell compartment characterization: A deeper characterization of the B cell compartment in non-immunized mice is needed, including analysis of Marginal Zone (MZ) maturation and a more detailed examination of the B1 compartment. This is especially important given the role of specific lipid metabolism in these cell types. The phenotyping of the B cell compartment should also include an analysis of immunoglobulin levels on the membrane, considering the impact of lipids on membrane composition.

      Although the manuscript is focused on post-ontogenic B cell regulation in Ab responses, we believe we will be able to polish a revised manuscript through addition of results of analyses suggested by this point in the review: measurement of surface IgM on and phenotyping of various B cell subsets, including MZB and B1 B cells, to extend the data in Supplemental Fig 1H and I. Depending on the level of support, new immunization experiments to score Tfh and analyze a few of their functional molecules as part of a B cell paper may be feasible.  

      - GC Response Analysis Upon Immunization: The GC response characterization should include additional data on the T cell compartment, specifically the presence and function of Tfh cells. In Fig. 1H, the distribution of the LZ appears strikingly different. However, the authors have not addressed this in the text. A more thorough characterization of centroblasts and centrocytes using CXCR4 and CD86 markers is needed.

      The gating strategy used to characterize GC cells (GL7+CD95+ in IgD− cells) is suboptimal. A more robust analysis of GC cells should be performed in total B220+CD138− cells.

      We first want to apologize the mislabeling of LZ and DZ in Fig 1H. The greenish-yellow colored region (GL7<sup>+</sup> CD35<sup>+</sup>) indicate the DZ and the cyan-colored region (GL7<sup>+</sup> CD35<sup>+</sup>) indicates the LZ.

      As a technical note, we experienced high background noise with GL7 staining uniquely with PexRAP deficient (Dhrs7b<sup>f/f</sup>; Rosa26-CreER<sup>T2</sup>) mice (i.e., not WT control mice). The high background noise of GL7 staining was not observed in B cell specific KO of PexRAP (Dhrs7b<sup>f/f</sup>; huCD20-CreER<sup>T2</sup>). Two formal possibilities to account for this staining issue would be if either the expression of the GL7 epitope were repressed by PexRAP or the proper positioning of GL7<sup>+</sup> cells in germinal center region were defective in PexRAP-deficient mice (e.g., due to an effect on positioning cues from cell types other than B cells). In a revised manuscript, we will fix the labeling error and further discuss the GL7 issue, while taking care not to be thought to conclude that there is a positioning problem or derepression of GL7 (an activation antigen on T cells as well as B cells).

      While the gating strategy for an overall population of GC B cells is fairly standard even in the current literature, the question about using CD138 staining to exclude early plasmablasts (i.e., analyze B220<sup>+</sup> CD138<sup>neg</sup> vs B220<sup>+</sup> CD138<sup>+</sup>) is interesting. In addition, some papers like to use GL7<sup>+</sup> CD38<sup>neg</sup> for GC B cells instead of GL7<sup>+</sup> Fas (CD95)<sup>+</sup>, and we thank the reviewer for suggesting the analysis of centroblasts and centrocytes. For the revision, we will try to secure resources to revisit the immunizations and analyze them for these other facets of GC B cells (including CXCR4/CD86) and for their GL7<sup>+</sup> CD38<sup>neg</sup>. B220<sup>+</sup> CD138<sup>-</sup> and B220<sup>+</sup> CD138<sup>+</sup> cell populations. 

      We agree that comparison of the Rosa26-CreERT2 results to those with B cell-specific loss-of-function raise a tantalizing possibility that Tfh cells also are influenced by PexRAP. Although the manuscript is focused on post-ontogenic B cell regulation in Ab responses, we hope to add a new immunization experiments that scores Tfh and analyzes a few of their functional molecules could be added to this B cell paper, depending on the ability to wheedle enough support / fiscal resources.

      - The authors claim that Dhrs7b supports the homeostatic maintenance of quiescent B cells in vivo and promotes effective proliferation. This conclusion is primarily based on experiments where CTV-labeled PexRAP-deficient B cells were adoptively transferred into μMT mice (Fig. 2D-F). However, we recommend reviewing the flow plots of CTV in Fig. 2E, as they appear out of scale. More importantly, the low recovery of PexRAP-deficient B cells post-adoptive transfer weakens the robustness of the results and is insufficient to conclusively support the role of PexRAP in B cell proliferation in vivo.

      In the revision, we will edit the text and try to adjust the digitized cytometry data to allow more dynamic range to the right side of the upper panels in Fig. 2E, and otherwise to improve the presentation of the in vivo CTV result. However, we feel impelled to push back respectfully on some of the concern raised here. First, it seems to gloss over the presentation of multiple facets of evidence. The conclusion about maintenance derives primarily from Fig. 2C, which shows a rapid, statistically significant decrease in B cell numbers (extending the finding of Fig. 1D, a more substantial decrease after a bit longer a period). As noted in the text, the rate of de novo B cell production does not suffice to explain the magnitude of the decrease.

      In terms of proliferation, we will improve presentation of the Methods but the bottom line is that the recovery efficiency is not bad (comparing to prior published work) inasmuch as transferred B cells do not uniformly home to spleen. In a setting where BAFF is in ample supply in vivo, we transferred equal numbers of cells that were equally labeled with CTV and counted B cells.  The CTV result might be affected by lower recovered B cell with PexRAP deficiency, generally, the frequencies of CTV<sup>low</sup> divided population are not changed very much. However, it is precisely because of the pitfalls of in vivo analyses that we included complementary data with survival and proliferation in vitro. The proliferation was attenuated in PexRAP-deficient B cells in vitro; this evidence supports the conclusion that proliferation of PexRAP knockout B cells is reduced. It is likely that PexRAP deficient B cells also have defect in viability in vivo as we observed the reduced B cell number in PexRAP-deficient mice. As the reviewer noticed, the presence of a defect in cycling does, in the transfer experiments, limit the ability to interpret a lower yield of B cell population after adoptive transfer into µMT recipient mice as evidence pertaining to death rates. We will edit the text of the revision with these points in mind.

      - In vitro stimulation experiments: These experiments need improvement. The authors have used anti-CD40 and BAFF for B cell stimulation; however, it would be beneficial to also include anti-IgM in the stimulation cocktail. In Fig. 2G, CTV plots do not show clear defects in proliferation, yet the authors quantify the percentage of cells with more than three divisions. These plots should clearly display the gating strategy. Additionally, details about histogram normalization and potential defects in cell numbers are missing. A more in-depth analysis of apoptosis is also required to determine whether the observed defects are due to impaired proliferation or reduced survival.

      As suggested by reviewer, testing additional forms of B cell activation can help explore the generality (or lack thereof) of findings. We plan to test anti-IgM stimulation together with anti-CD40 + BAFF as well as anti-IgM + TLR7/8, and add the data to a revised and final manuscript.

      With regards to Fig. 2G (and 2H), in the revised manuscript we will refine the presentation (add a demonstration of the gating, and explicate histogram normalization of FlowJo).

      It is an interesting issue in bioscience, but in our presentation 'representative data' really are pretty representative, so a senior author is reminded of a comment Tak Mak made about a reduction (of proliferation, if memory serves) to 0.7 x control. [His point in a comment to referees at a symposium related that to a salary reduction by 30% :) A mathematical alternative is to point out that across four rounds of division for WT cells, a reduction to 0.7x efficiency at each cycle means about 1/4 as many progeny.] 

      We will try to edit the revision (Methods, Legends, Results, Discussion] to address better the points of the last two sentences of the comment, and improve the details that could assist in replication or comparisons (e.g., if someone develops a PexRAP inhibitor as potential therapeutic).

      For the present, please note that the cell numbers at the end of the cultures are currently shown in Fig 2, panel I. Analogous culture results are shown in Fig 8, panels I, J, albeit with harvesting at day 5 instead of day 4. So, a difference of ≥ 3x needs to be explained. As noted above, a division efficiency reduced to 0.7x normal might account for such a decrease, but in practice the data of Fig. 2I show that the number of PexRAP-deficient B cells at day 4 is similar to the number plated before activation, and yet there has been a reasonable amount of divisions. So cell numbers in the culture of  mutant B cells are constant because cycling is active but decreased and insufficient to allow increased numbers ("proliferation" in the true sense) as programmed death is increased. In line with this evidence, Fig 8G-H document higher death rates [i.e., frequencies of cleaved caspase3<sup>+</sup> cell and Annexin V<sup>+</sup> cells] of PexRAP-deficient B cells compared to controls. Thus, the in vitro data lead to the conclusion that both decreased division rates and increased death operate after this form of stimulation.

      An inference is that this is the case in vivo as well - note that recoveries differed by ~3x (Fig. 2D), and the decrease in divisions (presentation of which will be improved) was meaningful but of lesser magnitude (Fig. 2E, F).  

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Cho et al. investigate the role of ether lipid biosynthesis in B cell biology, particularly focusing on GC B cell, by inducible deletion of PexRAP, an enzyme responsible for the synthesis of ether lipids.

      Strengths:

      Overall, the data are well-presented, the paper is well-written and provides valuable mechanistic insights into the importance of PexRAP enzyme in GC B cell proliferation.

      We appreciate this positive response and agree with the overview and summary of the paper's approaches and strengths.

      Weaknesses:

      More detailed mechanisms of the impaired GC B cell proliferation by PexRAP deficiency remain to be further investigated. In the minor part, there are issues with the interpretation of the data which might cause confusion for the readers.

      Issues about contributions of cell cycling and divisions on the one hand, and susceptibility to death on the other, were discussed above, amplifying on the current manuscript text. The aggregate data support a model in which both processes are impacted for mature B cells in general, and mechanistically the evidence and work focus on the increased ROS and modes of death. Although the data in Fig. 7 do provide evidence that GC B cells themselves are affected, we agree that resource limitations had militated against developing further evidence about cycling specifically for GC B cells. We will hope to be able to obtain sufficient data from some specific analysis of proliferation in vivo (e.g., Ki67 or BrdU) as well as ROS and death ex vivo when harvesting new samples from mice immunized to analyze GC B cells for CXCR4/CD86, CD38, CD138 as indicated by Reviewer 1.  As suggested by Reviewer 2, we will further discuss the possible mechanism(s) by which proliferation of PexRAP-deficient B cells is impaired. We also will edit the text of a revision where to enhance clarity of data interpretation - at a minimum, to be very clear that caution is warranted in assuming that GC B cells will exhibit the same mechanisms as cultures in vitro-stimulated B cells.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This paper presents a computational method to infer from data a key feature of affinity maturation: the relationship between the affinity of B-cell receptors and their fitness. The approach, which is based on a simple population dynamics model but inferred using AI-powered Simulation-Based Inference, is novel and valuable. It exploits recently published data on replay experiments of affinity maturation. While the method is well-argued and the validation solid, the potential impact of the study is hindered by its complex presentation, which makes it hard to assess its claims reliably.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper aims to characterize the relationship between affinity and fitness in the process of affinity maturation. To this end, the authors develop a model of germinal center reaction and a tailored statistical approach, building on recent advances in simulation-based inference. The potential impact of this work is hindered by the poor organization of the manuscript. In crucial sections, the writing style and notations are unclear and difficult to follow.

      Strengths:

      The model provides a framework for linking affinity measurements and sequence evolution and does so while accounting for the stochasticity inherent to the germinal center reaction. The model's sophistication comes at the cost of numerous parameters and leads to intractable likelihood, which are the primary challenges addressed by the authors. The approach to inference is innovative and relies on training a neural network on extensive simulations of trajectories from the model.

      Weaknesses:

      The text is challenging to follow. The descriptions of the model and the inference procedure are fragmented and repetitive. In the introduction and the methods section, the same information is often provided multiple times, at different levels of detail. This organization sometimes requires the reader to move back and forth between subsections (there are multiple non-specific references to "above" and "below" in the text).

      The choice of some parameter values in simulations appears arbitrary and would benefit from more extensive justification. It remains unclear how the "significant uncertainty" associated with these parameters affects the results of inference. In addition, the performance of the inference scheme on simulated data is difficult to evaluate, as the reported distributions of loss function values are not very informative.

      Finally, the discussion of the similarities and differences with an alternative approach to this inference problem, presented in Dewitt et al. (2025), is incomplete.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper presents a new approach for explicitly transforming B-cell receptor affinity into evolutionary fitness in the germinal center. It demonstrates the feasibility of using likelihood-free inference to study this problem and demonstrates how effective birth rates appear to vary with affinity in real-world data.

      Strengths:

      (1) The authors leverage the unique data they have generated for a separate project to provide novel insights into a fundamental question.

      (2) The paper is clearly written, with accessible methods and a straightforward discussion of the limits of this model.

      (3) Code and data are publicly available and well-documented.

      Weaknesses (minor):

      (1) Lines 444-446: I think that "affinity ceiling" and "fitness ceiling" should be considered independent concepts. The former, as the authors ably explain, is a physical limitation. This wouldn't necessarily correspond to a fitness ceiling, though, as Figure 7 shows. Conversely, the model developed here would allow for a fitness ceiling even if the physical limit doesn't exist.

      (2) Lines 566-569: I would like to see this caveat fleshed out more and perhaps mentioned earlier in the paper. While relative affinity is far more important, it is not at all clear to me that absolute affinity can be totally ignored in modeling GC behavior.

      (3) One other limitation that is worth mentioning, though beyond the scope of the current work to fully address: the evolution of the repertoire is also strongly shaped by competition from circulating antibodies. (Eg: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3600904/, http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1931312820303978). This is irrelevant for the replay experiment modeled here, but still an important factor in general repertoires.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This valuable study proposes a theoretical model of clathrin coat formation based on membrane elasticity that seeks to determine whether this process occurs by increasing the area of a protein-coated patch with constant curvature, or by increasing the curvature of a protein-coated patch that forms in an initially flat conformation (so called constant curvature or constant area models). Identifying energetically favorable pathways and comparing the obtained shapes with experiments provides solid support to the constant-area pathway. This work will be of interest for biologists and biophysicists interested in membrane remodelling and endocytosis. It provides an innovative approach to tackle the question of constant curvature vs. constant area coat protein formation, although some of the model's assumption are only partially supported by experimental evidence.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors develop a set of biophysical models to investigate whether a constant area hypothesis or a constant curvature hypothesis explains the mechanics of membrane vesiculation during clathrin-mediated endocytosis.

      Strengths:

      The models that the authors choose are fairly well-described in the field and the manuscript is well-written.

      Weaknesses:

      One thing that is unclear is what is new with this work. If the main finding is that the differences are in the early stages of endocytosis, then one wonders if that should be tested experimentally. Also, the role of clathrin assembly and adhesion are treated as mechanical equilibrium but perhaps the process should not be described as equilibria but rather a time-dependent process. Ultimately, there are so many models that address this question that without direct experimental comparison, it's hard to place value on the model prediction.

      While an attempt is made to do so with prior published EM images, there is excessive uncertainty in both the data itself as is usually the case but also in the methods that are used to symmetrize the data. This reviewer wonders about any goodness of fit when such uncertainty is taken into account.

      Comments on revisions:

      I appreciate the authors edits, but I found that the major concerns I had still hold. Therefore, I did not alter my review.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors employ theoretical analysis of an elastic membrane model to explore membrane vesiculation pathways in clathrin-mediated endocytosis. A complete understanding of clathrin-mediated endocytosis requires detailed insight into the process of membrane remodeling, as the underlying mechanisms of membrane shape transformation remain controversial, particularly regarding membrane curvature generation. The authors compare constant area and constant membrane curvature as key scenarios by which clathrins induce membrane wrapping around the cargo to accomplish endocytosis. First, they characterize the geometrical aspects of the two scenarios and highlight their differences by imposing coating area and membrane spontaneous curvature. They then examine the energetics of the process to understand the driving mechanisms behind membrane shape transformations in each model. In the latter part, they introduce two energy terms: clathrin assembly or binding energy, and curvature generation energy, with two distinct approaches for the latter. Finally, they identify the energetically favorable pathway in the combined scenario and compare their results with experiments, showing that the constant-area pathway better fits the experimental data.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is well-written, well-organized, and presents the details of the theoretical analysis with sufficient clarity.<br /> The calculations are valid, and the elastic membrane model is an appropriate choice for addressing the differences between the constant curvature and constant area models.<br /> The authors' approach of distinguishing two distinct free energy terms-clathrin assembly and curvature generation-and then combining them to identify the favorable pathway is both innovative and effective in addressing the problem.<br /> Notably, their identification of the energetically favorable pathways, and how these pathways either lead to full endocytosis or fail to proceed due to insufficient energetic drives, is particularly insightful.

      Comments on revisions:

      The authors have carefully addressed all my comments, and the revised manuscript is now clear, rigorous, and satisfactory.

    4. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1:

      Summary

      The authors develop a set of biophysical models to investigate whether a constant area hypothesis or a constant curvature hypothesis explains the mechanics of membrane vesiculation during clathrin-mediated endocytosis.

      Strengths

      The models that the authors choose are fairly well-described in the field and the manuscript is wellwritten.

      Thank you for your positive comments on our work.

      Weaknesses

      One thing that is unclear is what is new with this work. If the main finding is that the differences are in the early stages of endocytosis, then one wonders if that should be tested experimentally. Also, the role of clathrin assembly and adhesion are treated as mechanical equilibrium but perhaps the process should not be described as equilibria but rather a time-dependent process. Ultimately, there are so many models that address this question that without direct experimental comparison, it's hard to place value on the model prediction.

      Thank you for your insightful questions. We fully agree that distinguishing between the two models should ultimately be guided by experimental tests. This is precisely the motivation for including Fig. 5 in our manuscript, where we compare our theoretical predictions with experimental data. In the middle panel of Fig. 5, we observe that the predicted tip radius as a function of 𝜓<sub>𝑚𝑎𝑥</sub> from the constant curvature model (magenta curve) deviates significantly from both the experimental data points and the rolling median, highlighting the inconsistency of this model with the data.

      Regarding our treatment of clathrin assembly and membrane adhesion as mechanical equilibrium processes, our reasoning is based on a timescale separation argument. Clathrin assembly typically occurs over approximately 1 minute. In contrast, the characteristic relaxation time for a lipid membrane to reach mechanical equilibrium is given by , where 𝜇∼5 × 10<sup>-9</sup> 𝑁𝑠𝑚<sup>-1</sup> is the membrane viscosity, 𝑅<sub>0</sub> =50𝑛𝑚 is the vesicle size, 𝜅=20 𝑘<sub>𝐵</sub>𝑇 is the bending rigidity. This yields a relaxation time of 𝜏≈1.5 × 10<sup>−4</sup>𝑠, which is several orders of magnitude shorter than the timescale of clathrin assembly. Therefore, it is reasonable to treat the membrane shape as being in mechanical equilibrium throughout the assembly process.

      We believe the value of our model lies in the following key novelties:

      (1) Model novelty: We introduce an energy term associated with curvature generation, a contribution that is typically neglected in previous models.

      (2) Methodological novelty: We perform a quantitative comparison between theoretical predictions and experimental data, whereas most earlier studies rely on qualitative comparisons.

      (3) Results novelty: Our quantitative analysis enables us to unambiguously exclude the constant curvature hypothesis based on time-independent electron microscopy data.

      In the revised manuscript (line 141), we have added a statement about why we treat the clathrin assembly as in mechanical equilibrium.

      While an attempt is made to do so with prior published EM images, there is excessive uncertainty in both the data itself as is usually the case but also in the methods that are used to symmetrize the data. This reviewer wonders about any goodness of fit when such uncertainty is taken into account.

      Author response: We thank the reviewer for raising this important point. We agree that there is uncertainty in the experimental data. Our decision to symmetrize the data is based on the following considerations:

      (1) The experimental data provide a one-dimensional membrane profile corresponding to a cross-sectional view. To reconstruct the full two-dimensional membrane surface, we must assume rotational symmetry.

      (2)In addition to symmetrization, we also average membrane profiles within a certain range of 𝜓<sub>𝑚𝑎𝑥</sub> values (see Fig. 5d). This averaging helps reduce the uncertainty (due to biological and experimental variability) inherent to individual measurements.

      (3)To further address the noise in the experimental data, we compare our theoretical predictions not only with individual data points but also with a rolling median, which provides a smoothed representation of the experimental trends.

      These steps are taken to ensure a more robust and meaningful comparison between theory and experiments.

      In the revised manuscript (line 338), we have explained why we have to symmetrize the data:

      “To facilitate comparison between the axisymmetric membrane shapes predicted by the model and the non-axisymmetric profiles obtained from electron microscopy, we apply a symmetrization procedure to the experimental data, which consist of one-dimensional membrane profiles extracted from cross-sectional views, as detailed in Appendix 3 (see also Appendix 3--Fig. 1).”

      Reviewer #2:

      Summary

      In this manuscript, the authors employ theoretical analysis of an elastic membrane model to explore membrane vesiculation pathways in clathrin-mediated endocytosis. A complete understanding of clathrin-mediated endocytosis requires detailed insight into the process of membrane remodeling, as the underlying mechanisms of membrane shape transformation remain controversial, particularly regarding membrane curvature generation. The authors compare constant area and constant membrane curvature as key scenarios by which clathrins induce membrane wrapping around the cargo to accomplish endocytosis. First, they characterize the geometrical aspects of the two scenarios and highlight their differences by imposing coating area and membrane spontaneous curvature. They then examine the energetics of the process to understand the driving mechanisms behind membrane shape transformations in each model. In the latter part, they introduce two energy terms: clathrin assembly or binding energy, and curvature generation energy, with two distinct approaches for the latter. Finally, they identify the energetically favorable pathway in the combined scenario and compare their results with experiments, showing that the constant-area pathway better fits the experimental data.

      Thank you for your clear and comprehensive summary of our work.

      Strengths

      The manuscript is well-written, well-organized, and presents the details of the theoretical analysis with sufficient clarity. The calculations are valid, and the elastic membrane model is an appropriate choice for addressing the differences between the constant curvature and constant area models.

      The authors' approach of distinguishing two distinct free energy terms-clathrin assembly and curvature generation-and then combining them to identify the favorable pathway is both innovative and effective in addressing the problem.

      Notably, their identification of the energetically favorable pathways, and how these pathways either lead to full endocytosis or fail to proceed due to insufficient energetic drives, is particularly insightful.

      Thank you for your positive remarks regarding the innovative aspects of our work.

      Weaknesses and Recommendations

      Weakness: Membrane remodeling in cellular processes is typically studied in either a constant area or constant tension ensemble. While total membrane area is preserved in the constant area ensemble, membrane area varies in the constant tension ensemble. In this manuscript, the authors use the constant tension ensemble with a fixed membrane tension, σe. However, they also use a constant area scenario, where 'area' refers to the surface area of the clathrin-coated membrane segment. This distinction between the constant membrane area ensemble and the constant area of the coated membrane segment may cause confusion.

      Recommendation: I suggest the authors clarify this by clearly distinguishing between the two concepts by discussing the constant tension ensemble employed in their theoretical analysis.

      Thank you for raising this question.

      In the revised manuscript (line 136), we have added a sentence, emphasizing the implication of the term “constant area model”:

      “We emphasize that the constant area model refers to the assumption that the clathrin-coated area 𝑎<sub>0</sub> remains fixed. Meanwhile, the membrane tension 𝜎<sub>𝑒</sub> at the base is held constant, allowing the total membrane area 𝐴𝐴 to vary in response to deformations induced by the clathrin coat.”

      Weakness: As mentioned earlier, the theoretical analysis is performed in the constant membrane tension ensemble at a fixed membrane tension. The total free energy E_tot of the system consists of membrane bending energy E_b and tensile energy E_t, which depends on membrane tension, σe. Although the authors mention the importance of both E_b and E_t, they do not present their individual contributions to the total energy changes. Comparing these contributions would enable readers to cross-check the results with existing literature, which primarily focuses on the role of membrane bending rigidity and membrane tension.

      Recommendation: While a detailed discussion of how membrane tension affects their results may fall outside the scope of this manuscript, I suggest the authors at least discuss the total membrane area variation and the contribution of tensile energy E_t for the singular value of membrane tension used in their analysis.

      Thank you for the insightful suggestion. In the revised manuscript (line 916), we have added Appendix 6 and a supplementary figure to compare the bending energy 𝐸<sub>𝑏</sub> and the tension energy 𝐸<sub>𝑡</sub>. Our analysis shows that both energy components exhibit an energy barrier between the flat and vesiculated membrane states, with the tension energy contributing more significantly than the bending energy.

      In the revised manuscript (line 151), we have also added one paragraph explaining why we set the dimensionless tension . This choice is motivated by our use of the characteristic length as the length scale, and as the energy scale. In this way, the dimensionless tension energy is written as

      Where is the dimensionless area.

      Weakness: The authors introduce two different models, (1,1) and (1,2), for generating membrane curvature. Model 1 assumes a constant curvature growth, corresponding to linear curvature growth, while Model 2 relates curvature growth to its current value, resembling exponential curvature growth. Although both models make physical sense in general, I am concerned that Model 2 may lead to artificial membrane bending at high curvatures. Normally, for intermediate bending, ψ > 90, the bending process is energetically downhill and thus proceeds rapidly. The bending process is energetically downhill and thus proceeds rapidly. However, Model 2's assumption would accelerate curvature growth even further. This is reflected in the endocytic pathways represented by the green curves in the two rightmost panels of Fig. 4a, where the energy steeply increases at large ψ. I believe a more realistic version of Model 2 would require a saturation mechanism to limit curvature growth at high curvatures.

      Recommendation 1: I suggest the authors discuss this point and highlight the pros and cons of Model 2. Specifically, addressing the potential issue of artificial membrane bending at high curvatures and considering the need for a saturation mechanism to limit excessive curvature growth. A discussion on how Model 2 compares to Model 1 in terms of physical relevance, especially in the context of high curvature scenarios, would provide valuable insights for the reader.

      Thank you for raising the question of excessive curvature growth in our models and the constructive suggestion of introducing a saturation mechanism. In the revised manuscript (line 405), following your recommendation, we have added a subsection “Saturation effect at high membrane curvatures” in the discussion to clarify the excessive curvature issue and a possible way to introduce a saturation mechanism:

      “Note that our model involves two distinct concepts of curvature growth. The first is the growth of imposed curvature — referred to here as intrinsic curvature and denoted by the parameter 𝑐<sub>0</sub> — which is driven by the reorganization of bonds between clathrin molecules within the coat. The second is the growth of the actual membrane curvature, reflected by the increasing value of 𝜓<sub>𝑚𝑎𝑥</sub>.

      The latter process is driven by the former.

      Models (1,1) and (1,2) incorporate energy terms (Equation 6) that promote the increase of intrinsic curvature 𝑐<sub>0</sub>, which in turn drives the membrane to adopt a more curved shape (increasing 𝜓<sub>𝑚𝑎𝑥</sub>). In the absence of these energy contributions, the system faces an energy barrier separating a weakly curved membrane state (low 𝜓<sub>𝑚𝑎𝑥</sub>) from a highly curved state (high 𝜓<sub>𝑚𝑎𝑥</sub>). This barrier can be observed, for example, in the red curves of Figure 3(a–c) and in Appendix 6—Figure 1. As a result, membrane bending cannot proceed spontaneously and requires additional energy input from clathrin assembly.

      The energy terms described in Equation 6 serve to eliminate this energy barrier by lowering the energy difference between the uphill and downhill regions of the energy landscape. However, these same terms also steepen the downhill slope, which may lead to overly aggressive curvature growth.

      To mitigate this effect, one could introduce a saturation-like energy term of the form:

      where 𝑐<sub>𝑠</sub> represents a saturation curvature. Importantly, adding such a term would not alter the conclusions of our study, since the energy landscape already favors high membrane curvature (i.e., it is downward sloping) even without the additional energy terms. “

      Recommendation 2: Referring to the previous point, the green curves in the two rightmost panels of Fig. 4a seem to reflect a comparison between slow and fast bending regimes. The initial slow vesiculation (with small curvature growth) in the left half of the green curves is followed by much more rapid curvature growth beyond a certain threshold. A similar behavior is observed in Model 1, as shown by the green curves in the two rightmost panels of Fig. 4b. I believe this transition between slow and fast bending warrants a brief discussion in the manuscript, as it could provide further insight into the dynamic nature of vesiculation.

      Thank you for your constructive suggestion regarding the transition between slow and fast membrane bending. As you pointed out, in both Fig. 4a (model (1,2)) and Fig. 4b (model (1,1)), the green curves tend to extend vertically at the late stage. This suggests a significant increase in 𝑐<sub>0</sub> on the free energy landscape. However, we remain cautious about directly interpreting this vertical trend as indicative of fast endocytic dynamics, since our model is purely energetic and does not explicitly incorporate kinetic details. Meanwhile, we agree with your observation that the steep decrease in free energy along the green curve could correspond to an acceleration in dynamics. To address this point, we have added a paragraph in the revised manuscript (in Subsection “Cooperativity in the curvature generation process”) discussing this potential transition and its consistency with experimental observations (line 395):

      “Furthermore, although our model is purely energetic and does not explicitly incorporate dynamics, we observe in Figure 3(a) that along the green curve—representing the trajectory predicted by model (1,2)—the total free energy (𝐸<sub>𝑡𝑜𝑡</sub>) exhibits a much sharper decrease at the late stage (near the vesiculation line) compared to the early stage (near the origin). This suggests a transition from slow to fast dynamics during endocytosis. Such a transition is consistent with experimental observations, where significantly fewer number of images with large 𝜓<sub>𝑚𝑎𝑥</sub> are captured compared to those with small 𝜓<sub>𝑚𝑎𝑥</sub> (Mund et al., 2023).”

      The geometrical properties of both the constant-area and constant-curvature scenarios, as well depicted in Fig. 1, are somewhat straightforward. I wonder what additional value is presented in Fig. 2. Specifically, the authors solve differential shape equations to show how Rt and Rcoat vary with the angle ψ, but this behavior seems predictable from the simple schematics in Fig. 1. Using a more complex model for an intuitively understandable process may introduce counter-intuitive results and unnecessary complications, as seen with the constant-curvature model where Rt varies (the tip radius is not constant, as noted in the text) despite being assumed constant. One could easily assume a constant-curvature model and plot Rt versus ψ. I wonder What is the added value of solving shape equations to measure geometrical properties, compared to a simpler schematic approach (without solving shape equations) similar to what they do in App. 5 for the ratio of the Rt at ψ=30 and 150.

      Thank you for raising this important question. While simple and intuitive theoretical models are indeed convenient to use, their validity must be carefully assessed. The approximate model becomes inaccurate when the clathrin shell significantly deviates from its intrinsic shape, namely a spherical cap characterized by intrinsic curvature 𝑐<sub>0</sub>. As shown in the insets of Fig. 2b and 2c (red line and black points), our comparison between the simplified model and the full model demonstrates that the simple model provides a good approximation under the constant-area constraint. However, it performs poorly under the constant-curvature constraint, and the deviation between the full model and the simplified model becomes more pronounced as 𝑐<sub>0</sub> increases.

      In the revised manuscript, we have added a sentence emphasizing the discrepancy between the exact calculation with the idealized picture for the constant curvature model (line 181):

      “For the constant-curvature model, the ratio remains close to 1 only at small values of 𝑐<sub>0</sub>, as expected from the schematic representation of the model in Figure 1. However, as 𝑐<sub>0</sub> increases, the deviation from this idealized picture becomes increasingly pronounced.”

      Recommendation: The clathrin-mediated endocytosis aims at wrapping cellular cargos such as viruses which are typically spherical objects which perfectly match the constant-curvature scenario. In this context, wrapping nanoparticles by vesicles resembles constant-curvature membrane bending in endocytosis. In particular analogous shape transitions and energy barriers have been reported (similar to Fig.3 of the manuscript) using similar theoretical frameworks by varying membrane particle binding energy acting against membrane bending:

      DOI: 10.1021/la063522m

      DOI: 10.1039/C5SM01793A

      I think a short comparison to particle wrapping by vesicles is warranted.

      Thank you for your constructive suggestion to compare our model with particle wrapping. In the revised manuscript (line 475), we have added a subsection “Comparison with particle wrapping” in the discussion:

      “The purpose of the clathrin-mediated endocytosis studied in our work is the recycling of membrane and membrane-protein, and the cellular uptake of small molecules from the environment — molecules that are sufficiently small to bind to the membrane or be encapsulated within a vesicle. In contrast, the uptake of larger particles typically involves membrane wrapping driven by adhesion between the membrane and the particle, a process that has also been studied previously (Góźdź, 2007; Bahrami et al., 2016). In our model, membrane bending is driven by clathrin assembly, which induces curvature. In particle wrapping, by comparison, the driving force is the adhesion between the membrane and a rigid particle. In the absence of adhesion, wrapping increases both bending and tension energies, creating an energy barrier that separates the flat membrane state from the fully wrapped state. This barrier can hinder complete wrapping, resulting in partial or no engulfment of the particle. Only when the adhesion energy is sufficiently strong can the process proceed to full wrapping. In this context, adhesion plays a role analogous to curvature generation in our model, as both serve to overcome the energy barrier. If the particle is spherical, it imposes a constant-curvature pathway during wrapping. However, the role of clathrin molecules in this process remains unclear and will be the subject of future investigation.”

      Minor points:

      Line 20, abstract, "....a continuum spectrum ..." reads better.

      Line 46 "...clathrin results in the formation of pentagons ...." seems Ito be grammatically correct.

      Line 106, proper citation of the relevant literature is warranted here.

      Line 111, the authors compare features (plural) between experiments and calculations. I would write "....compare geometric features calculated by theory with those ....".

      Line 124, "Here, we choose a ..." (with comma after Here).

      Line 134, "The membrane tension \sigma_e and bending rigidity \kappa define a ...."

      Line 295, "....tip radius, and invagination ...." (with comma before and).

      Line 337, "abortive tips, and ..." (with comma before and).

      We thank you for your thorough review of our manuscript and have corrected all the issues raised.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This important manuscript provides compelling evidence that BK and CaV1.3 channels can co-localize as ensembles early in the biosynthetic pathway, including in the ER and Golgi. The findings, supported by a range of imaging and proximity assays, offer insights into channel organization in both heterologous and endogenous systems. While the data broadly support the central claims, mechanistic aspects remain unresolved, particularly regarding the determinants of mRNA co-localization, the temporal dynamics of ensemble trafficking, and the physiological implications of pre-assembly for channel function at the plasma membrane.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript by Pournejati et al investigates how BK (big potassium) channels and CaV1.3 (a subtype of voltage-gated calcium channels) become functionally coupled by exploring whether their ensembles form early-during synthesis and intracellular trafficking-rather than only after insertion into the plasma membrane. To this end, the authors use the PLA technique to assess the formation of ion channel associations in the different compartments (ER, Golgi or PM), single-molecule RNA in situ hybridization (RNAscope), and super-resolution microscopy.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is well written and addresses an interesting question, combining a range of imaging techniques. The findings are generally well-presented and offer important insights into the spatial organization of ion channel complexes, both in heterologous and endogenous systems.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors have improved their manuscript after revisions, and some previous concerns have been addressed. Still, the main concern about this work is that the current experiments do not quantitatively or mechanistically link the ensembles observed intracellularly (in the endoplasmic reticulum (ER) or Golgi) to those found at the plasma membrane (PM). As a result, it is difficult to fully integrate the findings into a coherent model of trafficking. Specifically, the manuscript does not address what proportion of ensembles detected at the PM originated in the ER. Without data on the turnover or half-life of these ensembles at the PM, it remains unclear how many persist through trafficking versus forming de novo at the membrane. The authors report the percentage of PLA-positive ensembles localized to various compartments, but this only reflects the distribution of pre-formed ensembles. What remains unknown is the proportion of total BK and CaV1.3 channels (not just those in ensembles) that are engaged in these complexes within each compartment. Without this, it is difficult to determine whether ensembles form in the ER and are then trafficked to the PM, or if independent ensemble formation also occurs at the membrane. To support the model of intracellular assembly followed by coordinated trafficking, it would be important to quantify the fraction of the total channel population that exists as ensembles in each compartment. A comparable ensemble-to-total ratio across ER and PM would strengthen the argument for directed trafficking of pre-assembled channel complexes.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The co-localization of large conductance calcium- and voltage activated potassium (BK) channels with voltage-gated calcium channels (CaV) at the plasma membrane is important for the functional role of these channels in controlling cell excitability and physiology in a variety of systems.

      An important question in the field is where and how do BK and CaV channels assemble as 'ensembles' to allow this coordinated regulation - is this through preassembly early in the biosynthetic pathway, during trafficking to the cell surface or once channels are integrated into the plasma membrane. These questions also have broader implications for assembly of other ion channel complexes.

      Using an imaging based approach, this paper addresses the spatial distribution of BK-CaV ensembles using both overexpression strategies in tsa201 and INS-1 cells and analysis of endogenous channels in INS-1 cells using proximity ligation and superesolution approaches. In addition, the authors analyse the spatial distribution of mRNAs encoding BK and Cav1.3.

      The key conclusion of the paper that BK and CaV1.3 are co-localised as ensembles intracellularly in the ER and Golgi is well supported by the evidence. However, whether they are preferentially co-translated at the ER, requires further work. Moreover, whether intracellular pre-assembly of BK-CaV complexes is the major mechanism for functional complexes at the plasma membrane in these models requires more definitive evidence including both refinement of analysis of current data as well as potentially additional experiments.

      Strengths & Weaknesses

      (1) Using proximity ligation assays of overexpressed BK and CaV1.3 in tsa201 and INS-1 cells the authors provide strong evidence that BK and CaV can exist as ensembles (ie channels within 40 nm) at both the plasma membrane and intracellular membranes, including ER and Golgi. They also provide evidence for endogenous ensemble assembly at the Golgi in INS-1 cells and it would have been useful to determine if endogenous complexes are also observe in the ER of INS-1 cells. There are some useful controls but the specificity of ensemble formation would be better determined using other transmembrane proteins rather than peripheral proteins (eg Golgi 58K).

      (2) Ensemble assembly was also analysed using super-resolution (dSTORM) imaging in INS-1 cells. In these cells only 7.5% of BK and CaV particles (endogenous?) co-localise that was only marginally above chance based on scrambled images. More detailed quantification and validation of potential 'ensembles' needs to be made for example by exploring nearest neighbour characteristics (but see point 4 below) to define proportion of ensembles versus clusters of BK or Cav1.3 channels alone etc. For example, it is mentioned that a distribution of distances between BK and Cav is seen but data are not shown.

      (3) The evidence that the intracellular ensemble formation is in large part driven by co-translation, based on co-localisation of mRNAs using RNAscope, requires additional critical controls and analysis. The authors now include data of co-localised BK protein that is suggestive but does not show co-translation. Secondly, while they have improved the description of some controls mRNA co-localisation needs to be measured in both directions (eg BK - SCN9A as well as SCN9A to BK) especially if the mRNAs are expressed at very different levels. The relative expression levels need to be clearly defined in the paper. Authors also use a randomized image of BK mRNA to show specificity of co-localisation with Cav1.3 mRNA, however the mRNA distribution would not be expected to be random across the cell but constrained by ER morphology if co-translated so using ER labelling as a mask would be useful?

      (4) The authors attempt to define if plasma membrane assemblies of BK and CaV occur soon after synthesis. However, because the expression of BK and CaV occur at different times after transient transfection of plasmids more definitive experiments are required. For example, using inducible constructs to allow precise and synchronised timing of transcription. This would also provide critical evidence that co-assembly occurs very early in synthesis pathways - ie detecting complexes at ER before any complexes at Golgi or plasma membrane.

      (5) While the authors have improved the definition of hetero-clusters etc it is still not clear in superesolution analysis, how they separate a BK tetramer from a cluster of BK tetramers with the monoclonal antibody employed ie each BK channel will have 4 binding sites (4 subunits in tetramer) whereas Cav1.3 has one binding site per channel. Thus, how do authors discriminate between a single BK tetramer (molecular cluster) with potential 4 antibodies bound compared to a cluster of 4 independent BK channels.

      (6) The post-hoc tests used for one way ANOVA and ANOVA statistics need to be defined throughout

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors present a clearly written and beautifully presented piece of work demonstrating clear evidence to support the idea that BK channels and Cav1.3 channels can co-assemble prior to their assertion in the plasma membrane.

      Strengths:

      The experimental records shown back up their hypotheses and the authors are to be congratulated for the large number of control experiments shown in the ms.

    5. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Recommendations for the Authors:

      (1) Clarify Mechanistic Interpretations

      (a) Provide stronger evidence or a more cautious interpretation regarding whether intracellular BK-CaV1.3 ensembles are precursors to plasma membrane complexes.

      This is an important point. We adjusted the interpretation regarding intracellular BKCa<sub>V</sub>1.3 hetero-clusters as precursors to plasma membrane complexes to reflect a more cautious stance, acknowledging the limitations of available data. We added the following to the manuscript.

      “Our findings suggest that BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 channels begin assembling intracellularly before reaching the plasma membrane, shaping their spatial organization and potentially facilitating functional coupling. While this suggests a coordinated process that may contribute to functional coupling, further investigation is needed to determine the extent to which these hetero-clusters persist upon membrane insertion.”

      (b) Discuss the limitations of current data in establishing the proportion of intracellular complexes that persist on the cell surface.

      We appreciate the suggestion. We expanded the discussion to address the limitations of current data in determining the proportion of intracellular complexes that persist on the cell surface. We added the following to the manuscript.

      “Our findings highlight the intracellular assembly of BK-Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 hetero-clusters, though limitations in resolution and organelle-specific analysis prevent precise quantification of the proportion of intracellular complexes that ultimately persist on the cell surface. While our data confirms that hetero-clusters form before reaching the plasma membrane, it remains unclear whether all intracellular hetero-clusters transition intact to the membrane or undergo rearrangement or disassembly upon insertion. Future studies utilizing live cell tracking and high resolution imaging will be valuable in elucidating the fate and stability of these complexes after membrane insertion.”

      (2) Refine mRNA Co-localization Analysis

      (a) Include appropriate controls using additional transmembrane mRNAs to better assess the specificity of BK and CaV1.3 mRNA co-localization.

      We agree with the reviewers that these controls are essential. We explain better the controls used to address this concern. We added the following to the manuscript. 

      “To explore the origins of the initial association, we hypothesized that the two proteins are translated near each other, which could be detected as the colocalization of their mRNAs (Figure 5A and B). The experiment was designed to detect single mRNA molecules from INS-1 cells in culture. We performed multiplex in situ hybridization experiments using an RNAScope fluorescence detection kit to be able to image three mRNAs simultaneously in the same cell and acquired the images in a confocal microscope with high resolution. To rigorously assess the specificity of this potential mRNA-level organization, we used multiple internal controls. GAPDH mRNA, a highly expressed housekeeping gene with no known spatial coordination with channel mRNAs, served as a baseline control for nonspecific colocalization due to transcript abundance. To evaluate whether the spatial proximity between BK mRNA (KCNMA1) and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 mRNA (CACNA1D) was unique to functionally coupled channels, we also tested for Na<sup>V</sup>1.7 mRNA (SCN9A), a transmembrane sodium channel expressed in INS-1 cells but not functionally associated with BK. This allowed us to determine whether the observed colocalization reflected a specific biological relationship rather than shared expression context. Finally, to test whether this proximity might extend to other calcium sources relevant to BK activation, we probed the mRNA of ryanodine receptor 2 (RyR2), another Ca<sup>2+</sup> channel known to interact structurally with BK channels [32]. Together, these controls were chosen to distinguish specific mRNA colocalization patterns from random spatial proximity, shared subcellular distribution, or gene expression level artifacts.”

      (b) Quantify mRNA co-localization in both directions (e.g., BK with CaV1.3 and vice versa) and account for differences in expression levels.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We chose to quantify mRNA co-localization in the direction most relevant to the formation of functionally coupled hetero-clusters, namely, the proximity of BK (KCNMA1) mRNA to Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 (CACNA1D) mRNA. Since BK channel activation depends on calcium influx provided by nearby Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 channels, this directional analysis more directly informs the hypothesis of spatially coordinated translation and channel assembly. To address potential confounding effects of transcript abundance, we implemented a scrambled control approach in which the spatial coordinates of KCNMA1 mRNAs were randomized while preserving transcript count. This control resulted in significantly lower colocalization with CACNA1D mRNA, indicating that the observed proximity reflects a specific spatial association rather than expressiondriven overlap. We also assessed colocalization of CACNA1D with both KCNMA1, GAPDH mRNAs and SCN9 (NaV1.7); as you can see in the graph below these data support t the same conclusion but were not included in the manuscript.

      Author response image 1.

      (c) Consider using ER labeling as a spatial reference when analyzing mRNA localization

      We thank the reviewers for this suggestion. Rather than using ER labeling as a spatial reference, we assess BK and CaV1.3 mRNA localization using fluorescence in situ hybridization (smFISH) alongside BK protein immunostaining. This approach directly identifies BK-associated translation sites, ensuring that observed mRNA localization corresponds to active BK synthesis rather than general ER association. By evaluating BK protein alongside its mRNA, we provide a more functionally relevant measure of spatial organization, allowing us to assess whether BK is synthesized in proximity to CaV1.3 mRNA within micro-translational complexes. The results added to the manuscript is as follows.

      “To further investigate whether KCNMA1 and CACNA1D are localized in regions of active translation (Figure 7A), we performed RNAScope targeting KCNMA1 and CACNA1D alongside immunostaining for BK protein. This strategy enabled us to visualize transcript-protein colocalization in INS-1 cells with subcellular resolution. By directly evaluating sites of active BK translation, we aimed to determine whether newly synthesized BK protein colocalized with CACNA1D mRNA signals (Figure 7A). Confocal imaging revealed distinct micro-translational complex where KCNMA1 mRNA puncta overlapped with BK protein signals and were located adjacent to CACNA1D mRNA (Figure 7B). Quantitative analysis showed that 71 ± 3% of all KCNMA1 colocalized with BK protein signal which means that they are in active translation. Interestingly, 69 ± 3% of the KCNMA1 in active translation colocalized with CACNA1D (Figure 7C), supporting the existence of functional micro-translational complexes between BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 channels.”

      (3) Improve Terminology and Definitions

      (a) Clarify and consistently use terms like "ensemble," "cluster," and "complex," especially in quantitative analyses.

      We agree with the reviewers, and we clarified terminology such as 'ensemble,' 'cluster,' and 'complex' and used them consistently throughout the manuscript, particularly in quantitative analyses, to enhance precision and avoid ambiguity.  

      (b) Consider adopting standard nomenclature (e.g., "hetero-clusters") to avoid ambiguity.

      We agree with the reviewers, and we adapted standard nomenclature, such as 'heteroclusters,' in the manuscript to improve clarity and reduce ambiguity.

      (4) Enhance Quantitative and Image Analysis

      (a) Clearly describe how colocalization and clustering were measured in super-resolution data.

      We thank the reviewers for this suggestion. We have modified the Methods section to provide a clearer description of how colocalization and clustering were measured in our super-resolution data. Specifically, we now detail the image processing steps, including binary conversion, channel multiplication for colocalization assessment, and density-based segmentation for clustering analysis. These updates ensure transparency in our approach and improve accessibility for readers, and we added the following to the manuscript.

      “Super-resolution imaging: 

      Direct stochastic optical reconstruction microscopy (dSTORM) images of BK and 1.3 overexpressed in tsA-201 cells were acquired using an ONI Nanoimager microscope equipped with a 100X oil immersion objective (1.4 NA), an XYZ closed-loop piezo 736 stage, and triple emission channels split at 488, 555, and 640 nm. Samples were imaged at 35°C. For singlemolecule localization microscopy, fixed and stained cells were imaged in GLOX imaging buffer containing 10 mM β-mercaptoethylamine (MEA), 0.56 mg/ml glucose oxidase, 34 μg/ml catalase, and 10% w/v glucose in Tris-HCl buffer. Single-molecule localizations were filtered using NImOS software (v.1.18.3, ONI). Localization maps were exported as TIFF images with a pixel size of 5 nm. Maps were further processed in ImageJ (NIH) by thresholding and binarization to isolate labeled structures. To assess colocalization between the signal from two proteins, binary images were multiplied. Particles smaller than 400 nm<sup>2</sup> were excluded from the analysis to reflect the spatial resolution limit of STORM imaging (20 nm) and the average size of BK channels. To examine spatial localization preference, binary images of BK were progressively dilated to 20 nm, 40 nm, 60 nm, 80 nm, 100 nm, and 200 nm to expand their spatial representation. These modified images were then multiplied with the Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 channel to quantify colocalization and determine BK occupancy at increasing distances from Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3. To ensure consistent comparisons across distance thresholds, data were normalized using the 200 nm measurement as the highest reference value, set to 1.”

      (b) Where appropriate, quantify the proportion of total channels involved in ensembles within each compartment.

      We thank the reviewers for this comment. However, our method does not allow for direct quantification of the total number of BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 channels expressed within the ER or ER exit sites, as we rely on proximity-based detection rather than absolute fluorescence intensity measurements of individual channels. Traditional methods for counting total channel populations, such as immunostaining or single-molecule tracking, are not applicable to our approach due to the hetero-clusters formation process. Instead, we focused on the relative proportion of BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 hetero-clusters within these compartments, as this provides meaningful insights into trafficking dynamics and spatial organization. By assessing where hetero-cluster preferentially localize rather than attempting to count total channel numbers, we can infer whether their assembly occurs before plasma membrane insertion. While this approach does not yield absolute quantification of ER-localized BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 channels, it remains a robust method for investigating hetero-cluster formation and intracellular trafficking pathways. To reflect this limitation, we added the following to the manuscript.

      “Finally, a key limitation of this approach is that we cannot quantify the proportion of total BK or Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 channels engaged in hetero-clusters within each compartment. The PLA method provides proximity-based detection, which reflects relative localization rather than absolute channel abundance within individual organelles”.

      (5) Temper Overstated Claims

      (a) Revise language that suggests the findings introduce a "new paradigm," instead emphasizing how this study extends existing models.

      We agree with the reviewers, and we have revised the language to avoid implying a 'new paradigm.' The following is the significance statement.

      “This work examines the proximity between BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 molecules at the level of their mRNAs and newly synthesized proteins to reveal that these channels interact early in their biogenesis. Two cell models were used: a heterologous expression system to investigate the steps of protein trafficking and a pancreatic beta cell line to study the localization of endogenous channel mRNAs. Our findings show that BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 channels begin assembling intracellularly before reaching the plasma membrane, revealing new aspects of their spatial organization. This intracellular assembly suggests a coordinated process that contributes to functional coupling.”

      (b) Moderate conclusions where the supporting data are preliminary or correlative.

      We agree with the reviewers, and we have moderated conclusions in instances where the supporting data are preliminary or correlative, ensuring a balanced interpretation. We added the following to the manuscript. 

      “This study provides novel insights into the organization of BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 channels in heteroclusters, emphasizing their assembly within the ER, at ER exit sites, and within the Golgi. Our findings suggest that BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 channels begin assembling intracellularly before reaching the plasma membrane, shaping their spatial organization, and potentially facilitating functional coupling. While this suggests a coordinated process that may contribute to functional coupling, further investigation is needed to determine the extent to which these hetero-clusters persist upon membrane insertion. While our study advances the understanding of BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 heterocluster assembly, several key questions remain unanswered. What molecular machinery drives this colocalization at the mRNA and protein level? How do disruptions to complex assembly contribute to channelopathies and related diseases? Additionally, a deeper investigation into the role of RNA binding proteins in facilitating transcript association and localized translation is warranted”.

      (6) Address Additional Technical and Presentation Issues

      (a) Include clearer figure annotations, especially for identifying PLA puncta localization (e.g., membrane vs. intracellular).

      We agree with the reviewers, and we have updated the figures to include clearer annotations that distinguish PLA puncta localized at the membrane versus those within intracellular compartments.

      (b) Reconsider the scale and arrangement of image panels to better showcase the data.

      We agree with the reviewers, and we have adjusted the scale and layout of the image panels to enhance data visualization and readability. Enlarged key regions now provide better clarity of critical features.

      (c) Provide precise clone/variant information for BK and CaV1.3 channels used.

      We thank the reviewers for their suggestion, and we now provide precise information regarding the BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 channel constructs used in our experiments, including their Addgene plasmid numbers and relevant variant details. These have been incorporated into the Methods section to ensure reproducibility and transparency. We added the following to the manuscript. 

      “The Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 α subunit construct used in our study corresponds to the rat Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3e splice variant containing exons 8a, 11, 31b, and 42a, with a deletion of exon 32. The BK channel construct used in this study corresponds to the VYR splice variant of the mouse BKα subunit (KCNMA1)”.

      (d) Correct typographical errors and ensure proper figure/supplementary labeling throughout.

      Typographical errors have been corrected, and figure/supplementary labeling has been reviewed for accuracy throughout the manuscript.

      (7) Expand the Discussion

      (a) Include a brief discussion of findings such as BK surface expression in the absence of CaV1.3.

      We thank the reviewers for their suggestion. We expanded the Discussion to include a brief analysis of BK surface expression in the absence of Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3. We included the following in the manuscript. 

      “BK Surface Expression and Independent Trafficking Pathways

      BK surface expression in the absence of Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 indicates that its trafficking does not strictly rely on Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3-mediated interactions. Since BK channels can be activated by multiple calcium sources, their presence in intracellular compartments suggests that their surface expression is governed by intrinsic trafficking mechanisms rather than direct calcium-dependent regulation. While some BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 hetero-clusters assemble into signaling complexes intracellularly, other BK channels follow independent trafficking pathways, demonstrating that complex formation is not obligatory for all BK channels. Differences in their transport kinetics further reinforce the idea that their intracellular trafficking is regulated through distinct mechanisms. Studies have shown that BK channels can traffic independently of Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3, relying on alternative calcium sources for activation [13, 41]. Additionally, Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 exhibits slower synthesis and trafficking kinetics than BK, emphasizing that their intracellular transport may not always be coordinated. These findings suggest that BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 exhibit both independent and coordinated trafficking behaviors, influencing their spatial organization and functional interactions”.

      (b) Clarify why certain colocalization comparisons (e.g., ER vs. ER exit sites) are not directly interpretable.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion. A clarification has been added to the result section and discussion of the manuscript explaining why colocalization comparisons, such as ER versus ER exit sites, are not directly interpretable. We included the following in the manuscript.

      “Result:

      ER was not simply due to the extensive spatial coverage of ER labeling, we labeled ER exit sites using Sec16-GFP and probed for hetero-clusters with PLA. This approach enabled us to test whether the hetero-clusters were preferentially localized to ER exit sites, which are specialized trafficking hubs that mediate cargo selection and direct proteins from the ER into the secretory pathway. In contrast to the more expansive ER network, which supports protein synthesis and folding, ER exit sites ensure efficient and selective export of proteins to their target destinations”.

      “By quantifying the proportion of BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 hetero-clusters relative to total channel expression at ER exit sites, we found 28 ± 3% colocalization in tsA-201 cells and 11 ± 2% in INS-1 cells (Figure 3F). While the percentage of colocalization between hetero-clusters and the ER or ER exit sites alone cannot be directly compared to infer trafficking dynamics, these findings reinforce the conclusion that hetero-clusters reside within the ER and suggest that BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 channels traffic together through the ER and exit in coordination”.

      “Colocalization and Trafficking Dynamics

      The colocalization of BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 channels in the ER and at ER exit sites before reaching the Golgi suggests a coordinated trafficking mechanism that facilitates the formation of multi-channel complexes crucial for calcium signaling and membrane excitability [37, 38]. Given the distinct roles of these compartments, colocalization at the ER and ER exit sites may reflect transient proximity rather than stable interactions. Their presence in the Golgi further suggests that posttranslational modifications and additional assembly steps occur before plasma membrane transport, providing further insight into hetero-cluster maturation and sorting events. By examining BK-Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 hetero-cluster distribution across these trafficking compartments, we ensure that observed colocalization patterns are considered within a broader framework of intracellular transport mechanisms [39]. Previous studies indicate that ER exit sites exhibit variability in cargo retention and sorting efficiency [40], emphasizing the need for careful evaluation of colocalization data. Accounting for these complexities allows for a robust assessment of signaling complexes formation and trafficking pathways”.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      In addition to the general aspects described in the public review, I list below a few points with the hope that they will help to improve the manuscript: 

      (1) Page 3: "they bind calcium delimited to the point of entry at calcium channels", better use "sources" 

      We agree with the reviewer. The phrasing on Page 3 has been updated to use 'sources' instead of 'the point of entry at calcium channels' for clarity.

      (2) Page 3 "localized supplies of intracellular calcium", I do not like this term, but maybe this is just silly.

      We agree with the reviewer. The term 'localized supplies of intracellular calcium' on Page 3 has been revised to “Localized calcium sources”

      (3) Regarding the definitions stated by the authors: How do you distinguish between "ensembles" corresponding to "coordinated collection of BK and Cav channels" and "assembly of BK clusters with Cav clusters"? I believe that hetero-clusters is more adequate. The nomenclature does not respond to any consensus in the protein biology field, and I find that it introduces bias more than it helps. I would stick to heteroclusters nomenclature that has been used previously in the field. Moreover, in some discussion sections, the term "ensemble" is used in ways that border on vague, especially when talking about "functional signaling complexes" or "ensembles forming early." It's still acceptable within context but could benefit from clearer language to distinguish ensemble (structural proximity) from complex (functional consequence).

      We agree with the reviewer, and we recognize the importance of precise nomenclature and have adopted hetero-clusters instead of ensembles to align with established conventions in the field. This term specifically refers to the spatial organization of BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 channels, while functional complexes denote mechanistic interactions. We have revised sections where ensemble was used ambiguously to ensure clear distinction between structure and function.

      The definition of "cluster" is clearly stated early but less emphasized in later quantitative analyses (e.g., particle size discussions in Figure 7). Figure 8 is equally confusing, graphs D and E referring to "BK ensembles" and "Cav ensembles", but "ensembles" should refer to combinations of both channels, whereas these seem to be "clusters". In fact, the Figure legend mentions "clusters".

      We agree with the reviewer. Terminology has been revised throughout the manuscript to ensure consistency, with 'clusters' used appropriately in quantitative analyses and figure descriptions.

      (4) Methods: how are clusters ("ensembles") analysed from the STORM data? What is the logarithm used for? More info about this is required. Equally, more information and discussion about how colocalization is measured and interpreted in superresolution microscopy are required.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion, and additional details have been incorporated into the Methods section to clarify how clusters ('ensembles') are analyzed from STORM data, including the role of the logarithm in processing. Furthermore, we have expanded the discussion to provide more information on how colocalization is measured and interpreted in super resolution microscopy. We include the following in the manuscript.

      “Direct stochastic optical reconstruction microscopy (dSTORM) images of BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 overexpressed in tsA-201 cells were acquired using an ONI Nanoimager microscope equipped with a 100X oil immersion objective (1.4 NA), an XYZ closed-loop piezo 736 stage, and triple emission channels split at 488, 555, and 640 nm. Samples were imaged at 35°C. For singlemolecule localization microscopy, fixed and stained cells were imaged in GLOX imaging buffer containing 10 mM β-mercaptoethylamine (MEA), 0.56 mg/ml glucose oxidase, 34 μg/ml catalase, and 10% w/v glucose in Tris-HCl buffer. Single-molecule localizations were filtered using NImOS software (v.1.18.3, ONI). Localization maps were exported as TIFF images with a pixel size of 5 nm. Maps were further processed in ImageJ (NIH) by thresholding and binarization to isolate labeled structures. To assess colocalization between the signal from two proteins, binary images were multiplied. Particles smaller than 400 nm<sup>2</sup> were excluded from the analysis to reflect the spatial resolution limit of STORM imaging (20 nm) and the average size of BK channels. To examine spatial localization preference, binary images of BK were progressively dilated to 20 nm, 40 nm, 60 nm, 80 nm, 100 nm, and 200 nm to expand their spatial representation. These modified images were then multiplied with the Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 channel to quantify colocalization and determine BK occupancy at increasing distances from Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3. To ensure consistent comparisons across distance thresholds, data were normalized using the 200 nm measurement as the highest reference value, set to 1”.

      (5) Related to Figure 2:

      (a) Why use an antibody to label GFP when PH-PLCdelta should be a membrane marker? Where is the GFP in PH-PKC-delta (intracellular, extracellular? Images in Figure 2E are confusing, there is a green intracellular signal.

      We thank the reviewer for their feedback. To clarify, GFP is fused to the N-terminus of PH-PLCδ and primarily localizes to the inner plasma membrane via PIP2 binding. Residual intracellular GFP signal may reflect non-membrane-bound fractions or background from anti-GFP immunostaining. We added a paragraph explaining the use of the antibody anti GFP in the Methods section Proximity ligation assay subsection. 

      (b) The images in Figure 2 do not help to understand how the authors select the PLA puncta located at the plasma membrane. How do the authors do this? A useful solution would be to indicate in Figure 2 an example of the PLA signals that are considered "membrane signals" compared to another example with "intracellular signals". Perhaps this was intended with the current Figure, but it is not clear.

      We agree with the reviewer. We have added a sentence to explain how the number of PLA puncta at the plasma membrane was calculated. 

      “We visualized the plasma membrane with a biological sensor tagged with GFP (PHPLCδ-GFP) and then probed it with an antibody against GFP (Figure 2E). By analyzing the GFP signal, we created a mask that represented the plasma membrane. The mask served to distinguish between the PLA puncta located inside the cell and those at the plasma membrane, allowing us to calculate the number of PLA puncta at the plasma membrane”.

      (c) Figure 2C: What is the negative control? Apologies if it is described somewhere, but I seem not to find it in the manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion. For the negative control in Figure 2C, BK was probed using the primary antibody without co-staining for Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 or other proteins, ensuring specificity and ruling out non-specific antibody binding or background fluorescence. A sentence clarifying the negative control for Figure 2C has been added to the Results section, specifying that BK was probed using the primary antibody without costaining for Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 or other proteins to ensure specificity. 

      “To confirm specificity, a negative control was performed by probing only for BK using the primary antibody, ensuring that detected signals were not due to non-specific binding or background fluorescence”.

      (d) What is the resolution in z of the images shown in Figure 2? This is relevant for the interpretation of signal localization.

      The z-resolution of the images shown in Figure 2 was approximately 270–300 nm, based on the Zeiss Airyscan system’s axial resolution capabilities. Imaging was performed with a step size of 300 nm, ensuring adequate sampling for signal localization while maintaining optimal axial resolution.

      “In a different experiment, we analyzed the puncta density for each focal plane of the cell (step size of 300 nm) and compared the puncta at the plasma membrane to the rest of the cell”.

      (e) % of total puncta in PM vs inside cell are shown for transfected cells, what is this proportion in INS-1 cells?

      This quantification was performed for transfected cells; however, we have not conducted the same analysis in INS-1 cells. Future experiments could address this to determine potential differences in puncta distribution between endogenous and overexpressed conditions.

      (6) Related to Figure 3:

      (a) Figure 3B: is this antibody labelling or GFP fluorescence? Why do they use GFP antibody labelling, if the marker already has its own fluorescence? This should at least be commented on in the manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for their concern. In Figure 3B, GFP was labeled using an antibody rather than relying on its intrinsic fluorescence. This approach was necessary because GFP fluorescence does not withstand the PLA protocol, resulting in significant fading. Antibody labeling provided stronger signal intensity and improved resolution, ensuring optimal signal-to-noise ratio for accurate analysis.

      A clarification regarding the use of GFP antibody labeling in Figure 3B has been added to the Methods section, explaining that intrinsic GFP fluorescence does not endure the PLA protocol, necessitating antibody-based detection for improved signal and resolution.We added the following to the manuscript. 

      “For PLA combined with immunostaining, PLA was followed by a secondary antibody incubation with Alexa Fluor-488 at 2 μg/ml for 1 hour at 21˚C. Since GFP fluorescence fades significantly during the PLA protocol, resulting in reduced signal intensity and poor image resolution, GFP was labeled using an antibody rather than relying on its intrinsic fluorescence”.

      (b) Why is it relevant to study the ER exit sites? Some explanation should be included in the main text (page 11) for clarification to non-specialized readers. Again, the quantification should be performed on the proportion of clusters/ensembles out of the total number of channels expressed at the ER (or ER exit sites).

      We thank the reviewer for their feedback. We have modified this section to include a more detailed explanation of the relevance of ER exit sites to protein trafficking. ER exit sites serve as specialized sorting hubs that regulate the transition of proteins from the ER to the secretory pathway, distinguishing them from the broader ER network, which primarily facilitates protein synthesis and folding. This additional context clarifies why studying ER exit sites provides valuable insights into ensemble trafficking dynamics.

      Regarding quantification, our method does not allow for direct measurement of the total number of BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 channels expressed at the ER or ER exit sites. Instead, we focused on the proportion of hetero-clusters localized within these compartments, which provides insight into trafficking pathways despite the limitation in absolute channel quantification. We included the following in the manuscript in the Results section. 

      “To determine whether the observed colocalization between BK–Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 hetero-clusters and the ER was not simply due to the extensive spatial coverage of ER labeling, we labeled ER exit sites using Sec16-GFP and probed for hetero-clusters with PLA. This approach enabled us to test whether the hetero-clusters were preferentially localized to ER exit sites, which are specialized trafficking hubs that mediate cargo selection and direct proteins from the ER into the secretory pathway. In contrast to the more expansive ER network, which supports protein synthesis and folding, ER exit sites ensure efficient and selective export of proteins to their target destinations”.

      “By quantifying the proportion of BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 hetero-clusters relative to total channel expression at ER exit sites, we found 28 ± 3% colocalization in tsA-201 cells and 11 ± 2% in INS-1 cells (Figure 3F). While the percentage of colocalization between hetero-clusters and the ER or ER exit sites alone cannot be directly compared to infer trafficking dynamics, these findings reinforce the conclusion that hetero-clusters reside within the ER and suggest that BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 channels traffic together through the ER and exit in coordination”.

      (7) Related to Figure 4:

      A control is included to confirm that the formation of BK-Cav1.3 ensembles is not unspecific. Association with a protein from the Golgi (58K) is tested. Why is this control only done for Golgi? No similar experiment has been performed in the ER. This aspect should be commented on.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion. We selected the Golgi as a control because it represents the final stage of protein trafficking before proteins reach their functional destinations. If BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 hetero-cluster formation is specific at the Golgi, this suggests that their interaction is maintained throughout earlier trafficking steps, including within the ER. While we did not perform an equivalent control experiment in the ER, the Golgi serves as an effective checkpoint for evaluating specificity within the broader protein transport pathway. We included the following in the manuscript.

      “We selected the Golgi as a control because it represents the final stage of protein trafficking, ensuring that hetero-cluster interactions observed at this point reflect specificity maintained throughout earlier trafficking steps, including within the ER”.

      (8) How is colocalization measured, eg, in Figure 6? Are the images shown in Figure 6 representative? This aspect would benefit from a clearer description.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion. A section clarifying colocalization measurement and the representativeness of Figure 6 images has been added to the Methods under Data Analysis. We included the following in the manuscript.

      For PLA and RNAscope experiments, we used custom-made macros written in ImageJ. Processing of PLA data included background subtraction. To assess colocalization, fluorescent signals were converted into binary images, and channels were multiplied to identify spatial overlap.

      (9) The text should be revised for typographical errors, for example:

      (a) Summary "evidence of" (CHECK THIS ONE)

      We agree with the reviewer, and we corrected the typographical errors

      (b) Table 1, row 3: "enriches" should be "enrich"

      We agree with the reviewer. The term 'enriches' in Table 1, row 3 has been corrected to 'enrich'.

      (c) Figure 2B "priximity"

      We agree with the reviewer. The typographical errors in Figure 2B has been corrected from 'priximity' to 'proximity'.

      (d) Legend of Figure 7 (C) "size of BK and Cav1.3 channels". Does this correspond to individual channels or clusters?

      We agree with the reviewer. The legend of Figure 7C has been clarified to indicate that 'size of BK and Cav1.3 channels' refers to clusters rather than individual channels.

      (e) Methods: In the RNASCOPE section, "Fig.4-supp1" should be "Fig. 5-supp1"

      (f) Page 15, Figure 5B is cited, should be Figure 6B

      We agree with the reviewer. The reference in the RNASCOPE section has been updated from 'Fig.4-supp1' to 'Fig. 5-supp1,' and the citation on Page 15 has been corrected from Figure 5B to Figure 6B.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The abstract could be more accessible for a wider readership with improved flow.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion. We modified the summary as follows to provide a more coherent flow for a wider readership. 

      “Calcium binding to BK channels lowers BK activation threshold, substantiating functional coupling with calcium-permeable channels. This coupling requires close proximity between different channel types, and the formation of BK–Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 hetero-clusters at nanometer distances exemplifies this unique organization. To investigate the structural basis of this interaction, we tested the hypothesis that BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 channels assemble before their insertion into the plasma membrane. Our approach incorporated four strategies: (1) detecting interactions between BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 proteins inside the cell, (2) identifying membrane compartments where intracellular hetero-clusters reside, (3) measuring the proximity of their mRNAs, and (4) assessing protein interactions at the plasma membrane during early translation. These analyses revealed that a subset of BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 transcripts are spatially close in micro-translational complexes, and their newly synthesized proteins associate within the endoplasmic reticulum (ER) and Golgi. Comparisons with other proteins, transcripts, and randomized localization models support the conclusion that BK and Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 hetero-clusters form before their insertion at the plasma membrane”.

      (2) Figure 2B - spelling of proximity.

      We agree with the reviewer. The typographical errors in Figure 2B has been corrected from 'priximity' to 'proximity'.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Minor issues to improve the manuscript:

      (1) For completeness, the authors should include a few sentences and appropriate references in the Introduction to mention that BK channels are regulated by auxiliary subunits.

      We agree with the reviewer. We have revised the Introduction to include a brief discussion of how BK channel function is modulated by auxiliary subunits and provided appropriate references to ensure completeness. These additions highlight the broader regulatory mechanisms governing BK channel activity, complementing the focus of our study. We included the following in the manuscript. 

      “Additionally, BK channels are modulated by auxiliary subunits, which fine-tune BK channel gating properties to adapt to different physiological conditions. β and γ subunits regulate BK channel kinetics, altering voltage sensitivity and calcium responsiveness [18]. These interactions ensure precise control over channel activity, allowing BK channels to integrate voltage and calcium signals dynamically in various cell types. Here, we focus on the selective assembly of BK channels with Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3 and do not evaluate the contributions of auxiliary subunits to BK channel organization.”

      (2) Insert a space between 'homeostasis' and the square bracket at the end of the Introduction's second paragraph.

      We agree with the reviewer. A space has been inserted between 'homeostasis' and the square bracket in the second paragraph of the Introduction for clarity.

      (3) The images presented in Figures 2-5 should be increased in size (if permitted by the Journal) to allow the reader to clearly see the puncta in the fluorescent images. This would necessitate reconfiguring the figures into perhaps a full A4 page per figure, but I think the quality of the images presented really do deserve to "be seen". For example, Panels A & B could be at the top of Figure 2, with C & D presented below them. However, I'll leave it up to the authors to decide on the most aesthetically pleasing way to show these.

      We agree with the reviewer. We have increased the size of Figures 2–8 to enhance the visibility of fluorescent puncta, as suggested. To accommodate this, we reorganized the panel layout for each figure—for example, in Figure 2, Panels A and B are now placed above Panels C and D to support a more intuitive and aesthetically coherent presentation. We believe this revised configuration highlights the image quality and improves readability while conforming to journal layout constraints.

      (4) I think that some of the sentences could be "toned down"

      (a) eg, in the first paragraph below Figure 2, the authors state "that 46(plus minus)3% of the puncta were localised on intracellular membranes" when, at that stage, no data had been presented to confirm this. I think changing it to "that 46(plus minus)3% of the puncta were localised intracellularly" would be more precise.

      (b) Similarly, please consider replacing the wording of "get together at membranes inside the cell" to "co-localise intracellularly".

      (c) In the paragraph just before Figure 5, the authors mention that "the abundance of KCNMA1 correlated more with the abundance of CACNA1D than ... with GAPDH." Although this is technically correct, the R2 value was 0.22, which is exceptionally poor. I don't think that the paper is strengthened by sentences such as this, and perhaps the authors might tone this down to reflect this.

      (d) The authors clearly demonstrate in Figure 8 that a significant number of BK channels can traffic to the membrane in the absence of Cav1.3. Irrespective of the differences in transcription/trafficking time between the two channel types, the authors should insert a few lines into their discussion to take this finding into account.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s feedback regarding the clarity and precision of our phrasing.

      Our responses for each point are below.

      (a) We have modified the statement in the first paragraph below Figure 2, changing '46 ± 3% of the puncta were localized on intracellular membranes' to '46 ± 3% of the puncta were localized ‘intracellularly’ to ensure accuracy in the absence of explicit data confirming membrane association.

      (b) Similarly, we have replaced 'get together at membranes inside the cell' with 'colocalize intracellularly' to maintain clarity and avoid unintended implications. 

      (c) Regarding the correlation between KCNMA1 and CACNA1D abundance, we recognize that the R² value of 0.22 is relatively low. To reflect this appropriately, we have revised the phrasing to indicate that while a correlation exists, it is modest. We added the following to the manuscript. 

      “Interestingly, the abundance of KCNMA1 transcripts correlated more with the abundance of CACNA1D transcripts than with the abundance of GAPDH, a standard housekeeping gene, though with a modest R² value.”

      (d) To incorporate the findings from Figure 8, we have added discussion acknowledging that a substantial number of BK channels traffic to the membrane independently of Ca<sub>V</sub>1.3. This addition provides context for potential trafficking mechanisms that operate separately from ensemble formation.

      (5) For clarity, please insert the word "total" in the paragraph after Figure 3 "..."63{plus minus}3% versus 50%{plus minus}6% of total PLA puncta were localised at the ER". I know this is explicitly stated later in the manuscript, but I think it needs to be clarified earlier.

      We agree with the reviewer. The word 'total' has been inserted in the paragraph following Figure 3 to clarify the percentage of PLA puncta localized at the ER earlier in the manuscript

      (6) In the discussion, I think an additional (short) paragraph needs to be included to clarify to the reader why the % "colocalization between ensembles and the ER or the ER exit sites can't be compared or used to understand the dynamics of the ensembles". This may permit the authors to remove the last sentence of the paragraph just before the results section, "BK and Cav1.3 ensembles go through the Golgi."

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion. We have added a short paragraph in the discussion to clarify why colocalization percentages between ensembles and the ER or ER exit sites cannot be compared to infer ensemble dynamics. This allowed us to remove the final sentence of the paragraph preceding the results section ('BK and Cav1.3 ensembles go through the Golgi).

      (7) In the paragraph after Figure 6, Figure 5B is inadvertently referred to. Please correct this to Figure 6B.

      We agree with the reviewer. The reference to Figure 5B in the paragraph after Figure 6 has been corrected to Figure 6B.

      (8) In the discussion under "mRNA co-localisation and Protein Trafficking", please insert a relevant reference illustrating that "disruption in mRNA localization... can lead to ion channel mislocalization".

      We agree with the reviewer. We have inserted a relevant reference under 'mRNA Colocalization and Protein Trafficking' to illustrate that disruption in mRNA localization can lead to ion channel mislocalization.

      (9) The supplementary Figures appear to be incorrectly numbered. Please correct and also ensure that they are correctly referred to in the text.

      We agree with the reviewer. The numbering of the supplementary figures has been corrected, and all references to them in the text have been updated accordingly.

      (10) The final panels of the currently labelled Figure 5-Supplementary 2 need to have labels A-F included on the image.

      We agree with the reviewer. Labels A-F have been added to the final panels of Figure 5-Supplementary 2.

      References

      (1) Shah, K.R., X. Guan, and J. Yan, Structural and Functional Coupling of Calcium-Activated BK Channels and Calcium-Permeable Channels Within Nanodomain Signaling Complexes. Frontiers in Physiology, 2022. Volume 12 - 2021.

      (2) Chen, A.L., et al., Calcium-Activated Big-Conductance (BK) Potassium Channels Traffic through Nuclear Envelopes into Kinocilia in Ray Electrosensory Cells. Cells, 2023. 12(17): p. 2125.

      (3) Berkefeld, H., B. Fakler, and U. Schulte, Ca2+-activated K+ channels: from protein complexes to function. Physiol Rev, 2010. 90(4): p. 1437-59.

      (4) Loane, D.J., P.A. Lima, and N.V. Marrion, Co-assembly of N-type Ca2+ and BK channels underlies functional coupling in rat brain. J Cell Sci, 2007. 120(Pt 6): p. 98595.

      (5) Boncompain, G. and F. Perez, The many routes of Golgi-dependent trafficking. Histochemistry and Cell Biology, 2013. 140(3): p. 251-260.

      (6) Kurokawa, K. and A. Nakano, The ER exit sites are specialized ER zones for the transport of cargo proteins from the ER to the Golgi apparatus. The Journal of Biochemistry, 2019. 165(2): p. 109-114.

      (7) Chen, G., et al., BK channel modulation by positively charged peptides and auxiliary γ subunits mediated by the Ca2+-bowl site. Journal of General Physiology, 2023. 155(6).

    1. eLife Assessment

      This useful study reports a method to detect and analyze a novel post-translational modification, lysine acetoacetylation (Kacac), finding it regulates protein metabolism pathways. The study unveils epigenetic modifiers involved in placing this mark, including key histone acetyltransferases such as p300, and concomitant HDACs, which remove the mark. Proteomic and bioinformatics analysis identified many human proteins with Kacac sites, potentially suggesting broad effects on cellular processes and disease mechanisms. The data presented are solid, although some concerns persist regarding inconsistencies in molecular weight of the enzyme used. The study will be of interest to those studying protein and metabolic regulation.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In the manuscript by Fu et al., the authors developed a chemo-immunological method for the reliable detection of Kacac, a novel post-translational modification, and demonstrated that acetoacetate and AACS serve as key regulators of cellular Kacac levels. Furthermore, the authors identified the enzymatic addition of the Kacac mark by acyltransferases GCN5, p300, and PCAF, as well as its removal by deacetylase HDAC3. These findings indicate that AACS utilizes acetoacetate to generate acetoacetyl-CoA in the cytosol, which is subsequently transferred into the nucleus for histone Kacac modification. A comprehensive proteomic analysis has identified 139 Kacac sites on 85 human proteins. Bioinformatics analysis of Kacac substrates and RNA-seq data reveal the broad impacts of Kacac on diverse cellular processes and various pathophysiological conditions. This study provides valuable additional insights into the investigation of Kacac and would serve as a helpful resource for future physiological or pathological research.

      Comments on revised version:

      The authors have made efforts to revise this manuscript and address my concerns. The revisions are appropriate and have improved the quality of the manuscript.

    3. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper presents a timely and significant contribution to the study of lysine acetoacetylation (Kacac). The authors successfully demonstrate a novel and practical chemo-immunological method using the reducing reagent NaBH4 to transform Kacac into lysine β-hydroxybutyrylation (Kbhb).

      Strengths:

      This innovative approach enables simultaneous investigation of Kacac and Kbhb, showcasing its potential in advancing our understanding of post-translational modifications and their roles in cellular metabolism and disease.

      Weaknesses:

      The experimental evidence presented in the article is insufficient to fully support the authors' conclusions. In the in vitro assays, the proteins used appear to be highly inconsistent with their expected molecular weights, as shown by Coomassie Brilliant Blue staining (Figure S3A). For example, p300, which has a theoretical molecular weight of approximately 270 kDa, appeared at around 37 kDa; GCN5/PCAF, expected to be ~70 kDa, appeared below 20 kDa. Other proteins used in the in vitro experiments also exhibited similarly large discrepancies from their predicted sizes. These inconsistencies severely compromise the reliability of the in vitro findings. Furthermore, the study lacks supporting in vivo data, such as gene knockdown experiments, to validate the proposed conclusions at the cellular level.

    4. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary

      Lysine acetoacetylation (Kacac) is a recently discovered histone post-translational modification (PTM) connected to ketone body metabolism. This research outlines a chemo-immunological method for detecting Kacac, eliminating the requirement for creating new antibodies. The study demonstrates that acetoacetate acts as the precursor for Kacac, which is catalyzed by the acyltransferases GCN5, p300, and PCAF, and removed by the deacetylase HDAC3. AcetoacetylCoA synthetase (AACS) is identified as a central regulator of Kacac levels in cells. A proteomic analysis revealed 139 Kacac sites across 85 human proteins, showing the modification's extensive influence on various cellular functions. Additional bioinformatics and RNA sequencing data suggest a relationship between Kacac and other PTMs, such as lysine βhydroxybutyrylation (Kbhb), in regulating biological pathways. The findings underscore Kacac's role in histone and non-histone protein regulation, providing a foundation for future research into the roles of ketone bodies in metabolic regulation and disease processes.

      Strengths 

      (1) The study developed an innovative method by using a novel chemo-immunological approach to the detection of lysine acetoacetylation. This provides a reliable method for the detection of specific Kacac using commercially available antibodies.

      (2) The research has done a comprehensive proteome analysis to identify unique Kacac sites on 85 human proteins by using proteomic profiling. This detailed landscape of lysine acetoacetylation provides a possible role in cellular processes.

      (3) The functional characterization of enzymes explores the activity of acetoacetyltransferase of key enzymes like GCN5, p300, and PCAF. This provides a deeper understanding of their function in cellular regulation and histone modifications.

      (4) The impact of acetyl-CoA and acetoacetyl-CoA on histone acetylation provides the differential regulation of acylations in mammalian cells, which contributes to the understanding of metabolic-epigenetic crosstalk.

      (5) The study examined acetoacetylation levels and patterns, which involve experiments using treatment with acetohydroxamic acid or lovastatin in combination with lithium acetoacetate, providing insights into the regulation of SCOT and HMGCR activities.

      We thank all the reviewers for their positive, insightful comments which have helped us improve our manuscript. We have revised the manuscript as suggested by the reviewers.

      Weakness 

      (1) There is a limitation to functional validation, related to the work on the biological relevance of identified acetoacetylation sites. Hence, the study requires certain functional validation experiments to provide robust conclusions regarding the functional implications of these modifications on cellular processes and protein function. For example, functional implications of the identified acetoacetylation sites on histone proteins would aid the interpretation of the results.

      We agree with the reviewer that investigating the functional role of individual histone Kacac sites is essential for understanding the epigenetic impact of Kacac marks on gene expression, signaling pathways, and disease mechanisms. This topic is out of the scope of this paper which focuses on biochemical studies and proteomics. Functional elucidation in specific pathways will be a critical direction for future investigation, ideally with the development of site-specific anti-Kacac antibodies.

      (2) The authors could have studied acetoacetylation patterns between healthy cells and disease models like cancer cells to investigate potential dysregulation of acetoacetylation in pathological conditions, which could provide insights into their PTM function in disease progression and pathogenesis.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s valuable suggestion. In our study, we measured Kacac levels in several types of cancer cell lines, including HCT116 (Fig. 2B), HepG2 (Supplementary Fig. S2), and HeLa cells (data not shown in the manuscript), and found that acetoacetate-mediated Kacac is broadly present in all these cancer cell lines. Our proteomics analysis linked Kacac to critical cellular functions, e.g. DNA repair, RNA metabolism, cell cycle regulation, and apoptosis, and identified promising targets that are actively involved in cancer progression such as p53, HDAC1, HMGA2, MTA2, LDHA. These findings suggest that Kacac has significant, non-negligible effects on cancer pathogenesis. We concur that exploring the acetoacetylation patterns in cancer patient samples with comparison with normal cells represents a promising direction for next-step research. We plan to investigate these big issues in future studies. 

      (3) The time-course experiments could be performed following acetoacetate treatment to understand temporal dynamics, which can capture the acetoacetylation kinetic change, thereby providing a mechanistic understanding of the PTM changes and their regulatory mechanisms.

      As suggested, time-course experiments were performed, and the data have been included in the revised manuscript (Supplementary Fig. S2A).

      (4) Though the discussion section indeed provides critical analysis of the results in the context of existing literature, further providing insights into acetoacetylation's broader implications in histone modification. However, the study could provide a discussion on the impact of the overlap of other post-translational modifications with Kacac sites with their implications on protein functions.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s helpful suggestion. We have added more discussions on the impact of the Kacac overlap with other post-translational modifications in the discussion section of the revised manuscript.

      Impact

      The authors successfully identified novel acetoacetylation sites on proteins, expanding the understanding of this post-translational modification. The authors conducted experiments to validate the functional significance of acetoacetylation by studying its impact on histone modifications and cellular functions.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In the manuscript by Fu et al., the authors developed a chemo-immunological method for the reliable detection of Kacac, a novel post-translational modification, and demonstrated that acetoacetate and AACS serve as key regulators of cellular Kacac levels. Furthermore, the authors identified the enzymatic addition of the Kacac mark by acyltransferases GCN5, p300, and PCAF, as well as its removal by deacetylase HDAC3. These findings indicate that AACS utilizes acetoacetate to generate acetoacetyl-CoA in the cytosol, which is subsequently transferred into the nucleus for histone Kacac modification. A comprehensive proteomic analysis has identified 139 Kacac sites on 85 human proteins. Bioinformatics analysis of Kacac substrates and RNA-seq data reveals the broad impacts of Kacac on diverse cellular processes and various pathophysiological conditions. This study provides valuable additional insights into the investigation of Kacac and would serve as a helpful resource for future physiological or pathological research.

      The following concerns should be addressed:

      (1) A detailed explanation is needed for selecting H2B (1-26) K15 sites over other acetylation sites when evaluating the feasibility of the chemo-immunological method.

      The primary reason for selecting the H2B (1–26) K15acac peptide to evaluate the feasibility of our chemo-immunological method is that H2BK15acac was one of the early discovered modification sites in our preliminary proteomic screening data. The panKbhb antibody used herein is independent of peptide sequence so different modification sites on histones can all be recognized. We have added the explanation to the manuscript.

      (2) In Figure 2(B), the addition of acetoacetate and NaBH4 resulted in an increase in Kbhb levels. Specifically, please investigate whether acetoacetylation is primarily mediated by acetoacetyl-CoA and whether acetoacetate can be converted into a precursor of β-hydroxybutyryl (bhb-CoA) within cells. Additional experiments should be included to support these conclusions.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s valuable comments. In our paper, we had the data showing that acetoacetate treatment had very little effect on histone Kbhb levels in HEK293T cells, as observed in lanes 1–4 of Fig. 2A, demonstrating that acetoacetate minimally contributes to Kbhb generation. We drew the conclusion that histone Kacac is primarily mediated by acetoacetyl-CoA based on multiple pieces of evidence: first, we observed robust Kacac formation from acetoacetyl-CoA upon incubation with HATs and histone proteins or peptides, as confirmed by both western blotting (Figs. 3A, 3B; Supplementary Figs. S3C– S3F) and MALDI-MS analysis (Supplementary Fig. S4A). Second, treatment with hymeglusin—a specific inhibitor of hydroxymethylglutaryl-CoA synthase, which catalyzes the conversion of acetoacetyl-CoA to HMG-CoA—led to increased Kacac levels in HepG2 cells (PMID: 37382194). Third, we demonstrated that AACS whose function is to convert acetoacetate into acetoacetyl-CoA leads to marked histone Kacac upregulation (Fig. 2E). Collectively, these findings strongly support the conclusion that acetoacetate promotes Kacac formation primarily via acetoacetyl-CoA.

      (3) In Figure 2(E), the amount of pan-Kbhb decreased upon acetoacetate treatment when SCOT or AACS was added, whereas this decrease was not observed with NaBH4 treatment. What could be the underlying reason for this phenomenon?

      In the groups without NaBH₄ treatment (lanes 5–8, Figure 2E), the Kbhb signal decreased upon the transient overexpression of SCOT or AACS, owing to protein loading variation in these two groups (lanes 7 and 8). Both Ponceau staining and anti-H3 results showed a lower amount of histones in the AACS- or SCOT-treated samples. On the other hand, no decrease in the Kbhb signal was observed in the NaBH₄-treated groups (lanes 1–4), because NaBH₄ treatment elevated Kacac levels, thereby compensating for the reduced histone loading. The most important conclusion from this experiment is that AACS overexpression increased Kacac levels, whereas SCOT overexpression had no/little effect on histone Kacac levels in HEK293T cells.

      (4) The paper demonstrates that p300, PCAF, and GCN5 exhibit significant acetoacetyltransferase activity and discusses the predicted binding modes of HATs (primarily PCAF and GCN5) with acetoacetyl-CoA. To validate the accuracy of these predicted binding models, it is recommended that the authors design experiments such as constructing and expressing protein mutants, to assess changes in enzymatic activity through western blot analysis.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s valuable suggestion. Our computational modeling shows that acetoacetyl-CoA adopts a binding mode similar to that of acetyl-CoA in the tested HATs. This conclusion is supported by experimental results showing that the addition of acetyl-CoA significantly competed for the binding of acetoacetyl-CoA to HATs, leading to reduced enzymatic activity in mediating Kacac (Fig. 3C). Further structural biology studies to investigate the key amino acid residues involved in Kacac binding within the GCN5/PCAF binding pocket, in comparison to Kac binding—will be a key direction of future studies.

      (5) HDAC3 shows strong de-acetoacetylation activity compared to its de-acetylation activity. Specific experiments should be added to verify the molecular docking results. The use of HPLC is recommended, in order to demonstrate that HDAC3 acts as an eraser of acetoacetylation and to support the above conclusions. If feasible, mutating critical amino acids on HDAC3 (e.g., His134, Cys145) and subsequently analyzing the HDAC3 mutants via HPLC and western blot can further substantiate the findings.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s helpful suggestion. In-depth characterizations of HDAC3 and other HDACs is beyond this manuscript. We plan in the future to investigate the enzymatic activity of recombinant HDAC3, including the roles of key amino acid residues and the catalytic mechanism underlying Kacac removal, and to compare its activity with that involved in Kac removal.

      (6) The resolution of the figures needs to be addressed in order to ensure clarity and readability.

      Edits have been made to enhance figure resolutions in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper presents a timely and significant contribution to the study of lysine acetoacetylation (Kacac). The authors successfully demonstrate a novel and practical chemo-immunological method using the reducing reagent NaBH4 to transform Kacac into lysine β-hydroxybutyrylation (Kbhb).

      Strengths:

      This innovative approach enables simultaneous investigation of Kacac and Kbhb, showcasing their potential in advancing our understanding of post-translational modifications and their roles in cellular metabolism and disease.

      Weaknesses:

      The paper's main weaknesses are the lack of SDS-PAGE analysis to confirm HATs purity and loading consistency, and the absence of cellular validation for the in vitro findings through knockdown experiments. These gaps weaken the evidence supporting the conclusions.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s positive comments on the quality of this work and the importance to the field. The SDS-PAGE results of HAT proteins (Supplementary Fig. S3A) was added in the revised manuscript. The cellular roles of p300 and GCN5 as acetoacetyltransferases were confirmed in a recent study (PMID: 37382194). Their data are consistent with our studies herein and provide further support for our conclusion. We agree that knockdown experiments are essential to further validate the activities of these enzymes and plan to address this in future studies.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      This study conducted the first comprehensive analysis of lysine acetoacetylation (Kacac) in human cells, identifying 139 acetoacetylated sites across 85 proteins in HEK293T cells. Kacac was primarily localized to the nucleus and associated with critical processes like chromatin organization, DNA repair, and gene regulation. Several previously unknown Kacac sites on histones were discovered, indicating its widespread regulatory role. Key enzymes responsible for adding and removing Kacac marks were identified: p300, GCN5, and PCAF act as acetoacetyltransferases, while HDAC3 serves as a remover. The modification depends on acetoacetate, with AACS playing a significant role in its regulation. Unlike Kbhb, Kacac showed unique cellular distribution and functional roles, particularly in gene expression pathways and metabolic regulation. Acetoacetate demonstrated distinct biological effects compared to βhydroxybutyrate, influencing lipid synthesis, metabolic pathways, and cancer cell signaling. The findings suggest that Kacac is an important post-translational modification with potential implications for disease, metabolism, and cellular regulation.

      Major Concerns

      (1) The authors could expand the study by including different cell lines and also provide a comparative study by using cell lines - such as normal vs disease (eg. Cancer cell like) - to compare and to increase the variability of acetoacetylation patterns across cell types. This could broaden the understanding of the regulation of PTMs in pathological conditions.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s valuable suggestions. We concur that a

      deeper investigation into Kacac patterns in cancer cell lines would significantly enhance understanding of Kacac in the human proteome. Nevertheless, due to constraints such as limited resource availability, we are currently unable to conduct very extensive explorations as proposed. Nonetheless, as shown in Fig. 2A, Fig. 2B, and Supplementary Fig. S2, our present data provide strong evidence for the widespread occurrence of acetoacetatemediated Kacac in both normal and cancer cell lines. Notably, our proteomic profiling identified several promising targets implicated in cancer progression, including p53, HDAC1, HMGA2, MTA2, and LDHA. We plan to conduct more comprehensive explorations of acetoacetylation patterns in cancer samples in future studies.

      (2) The paper lacks inhibition studies silencing the enzyme genes or inhibiting the enzyme using available inhibitors involved in acetoacetylation or using aceto-acetate analogues to selectively modulate acetoacetylation levels. This can validate their impact on downstream cellular pathways in cellular regulation.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s valuable suggestions. Our study, along with the previous research, has conducted initial investigations into the inhibition of key enzymes involved in the Kacac pathway. For example, inhibition of HMGCS, which catalyzes the conversion of acetoacetyl-CoA to HMG-CoA, was shown to enhance histone Kacac levels (PMID: 37382194). In our study, we examined the inhibitory effects of SCOT and HMGCR, both of which potentially influence cellular acetoacetyl-CoA levels. However, their respective inhibitors did not significantly affect histone Kacac levels. We also investigated the role of acetyl-CoA, which competes with acetoacetyl-CoA for binding to HAT enzymes and can function as a competitive inhibitor in histone Kacac generation. Furthermore, inhibition of HDAC activity by SAHA led to increased histone Kacac levels in HepG2 cells (PMID: 37382194), supporting our conclusion that HDAC3 functions as the eraser responsible for Kacac removal. These inhibition studies confirmed the functions of these enzymes and provided insights into their regulatory roles in modulating Kacac and its downstream pathways. Further in-depth investigations will explore the specific roles of these enzymes in regulating Kacac within cellular pathways.

      (3) The authors could validate the functional impact of pathways using various markers through IHC/IFC or western blot to confirm their RNA-seq analysis, since pathways could be differentially regulated at the RNA vs protein level.

      We agree that pathways can be differentially regulated at the RNA and protein levels. It is our future plan to select and fully characterize one or two gene targets to elaborate the presence and impact of Kacac marks on their functional regulation at both the gene expression and protein level.

      (4) Utilize in vitro reconstitution assays to confirm the direct effect of acetoacetylation on histone modifications and nucleosome assembly, establishing a causal relationship between acetoacetylation and chromatin regulation.

      We appreciate this suggestion, and this will be a very fine biophysics project for us and other researchers for the next step. We plan to do this and related work in a future paper to characterize the impact of lysine acetoacetylation on chromatin structure and gene expression. Technique of site-specific labelling will be required. Also, we hope to obtain monoclonal antibodies that directly recognize Kacac in histones to allow for ChIP-seq assays in cells.

      (5) The authors could provide a site-directed mutagenesis experiment by mutating a particular site, which can validate and address concerns regarding the specificity of a particular site involved in the mechanism.

      We agree that validating and characterizing the specificity of individual Kacac sites and understanding their functional implications are important for elucidating the mechanisms by which Kacac affects these substrate proteins. Such work will involve extensive biochemical and cellular studies. It is our future goal to select and fully characterize one or two gene targets in detail and in depth to elaborate the presence and impact of Kacac on their function regulation using comprehensive techniques (transfection, mutation, pulldown, and pathway analysis, etc.).

      (6) If possible, the authors could use an in vivo model system, such as mice, to validate the physiological relevance of acetoacetylation in a more complex system.  

      We currently do not have access to resources of relevant animal models. We will conduct in vivo screening and characterization of protein acetoacetylation in animal models and clinical samples in collaboration with prospective collaborators.

      Minor Concerns

      (1) The authors could discuss the overlap of Kacac sites with other post-translational modifications and their implications on protein functions. They could provide comparative studies with other PTMs, which can improvise a comprehensive understanding of acetoacetylation function in epigenetic regulation.

      We have expanded the discussion in the revised manuscript to address the overlap between Kacac and other post-translational modifications, along with their potential functional implications.

      (2) The authors could provide detailed information on the implications of their data, which would enhance the impact of the research and its relevance to the scientific community. Specifically, they could clarify the acetoacetylation (Kacac) significance in nucleosome assembly and its correlation with RNA processing.

      In the revised manuscript, we have added more elaborations on the implication and significance of Kacac in nucleosome assembly and RNA processing.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Major Comments:

      (1) Figures 3A, 3B, Supplementary Figures S3A-D

      I could not find the SDS-PAGE analysis results for the purified HATs used in the in vitro assay. It is imperative to display these results to confirm consistent loading amounts and sufficient purity of the HATs across experimental groups. Additionally, I did not observe any data on CBP, even though it was mentioned in the results section. If CBP-related experiments were not conducted, please remove the corresponding descriptions.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s valuable suggestion. The SDS-PAGE results for the HAT proteins have been included, and the part in the results section discussing CBP has been updated according to the reviewer’s suggestion in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Knockdown of Selected HATs and HDAC3 in cells

      The authors should perform gene knockdown experiments in cells, targeting the identified HATs and HDAC3, followed by Western blot and mass spectrometry analysis of Kacac expression levels. This would validate whether the findings from the in vitro assays are biologically relevant in cellular contexts.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s valuable suggestion. Our identified HATs, including p300 and GCN5, were reported as acetoacetyltransferases in cellular contexts by a recent study (PMID: 37382194). Their findings are precisely consistent with our biochemical results, providing additional evidence that p300 and GCN5 mediate Kacac both in vitro and in vivo. In addition, inhibition of HDAC activity by SAHA greatly increased histone Kacac levels in HepG2 cells (PMID: 37382194), supporting the role of HDAC3 as an eraser responsible for Kacac removal. We plan to further study these enzymes’ contributions to Kacac through gene knockdown experiments and investigate the specific functions of enzyme-mediated Kacac under some pathological contexts.

      Minor Comments:

      (1) Abstract accuracy

      In the Abstract, the authors state, "However, regulatory elements, substrate proteins, and epigenetic functions of Kacac remain unknown." Please revise this statement to align with the findings in Reference 22 and describe these elements more appropriately. If similar issues exist in other parts of the manuscript, please address them as well.

      The issues have been addressed in the revised manuscript based on the reviewer's comments.

      (2) Terminology issue

      GCN5 and PCAF are both members of the GNAT family. It is not accurate to describe "GCN5/PCAF/HAT1" as one family. Please refine the terminology to reflect the classification accurately.

      The description has been refined in the revised manuscript to accurately reflect the classification, in accordance with the reviewer's suggestion.

      (3) Discussion on HBO1

      Reference 22 has already established HBO1 as an acetoacetyltransferase. This paper should include a discussion of HBO1 alongside the screened p300, PCAF, and GCN5 to provide a more comprehensive perspective.

      More discussion on HBO1 alongside the other screened HATs has been added in the revised manuscript.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This paper describes Unbend - a new method for measuring and correcting motions in cryo-EM images, with a particular emphasis on more challenging in situ samples such as lamella and whole cells. The method, which fits a B-spline model using cross-correlation-based local patch alignment of micrograph frames, represents a valuable tool for the cryo-EM community. The authors elegantly use 2D template matching to provide solid evidence that Unbend outperforms the previously reported method of Unblur by the same authors. The paper would benefit from the inclusion of a similar analysis for established alternative methods, such as MotionCor2.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Kong et al.'s work describes a new approach that does exactly what the title states: "Correction of local beam-induced sample motion in cryo-EM images using a 3D spline model." I find the method appropriate, logical, and well-explained. Additionally, the work suggests using 2DTM-related measurements to quantify the improvement of the new method compared to the old one in cisTEM, Unblur. I find this part engaging; it is straightforward, accurate, and, of course, the group has a strong command of 2DTM, presenting a thorough study.

      However, everything in the paper (except some correct general references) refers to comparisons with the full-frame approach, Unblur. Still, we have known for more than a decade that local correction approaches perform better than global ones, so I do not find anything truly novel in their proposal of using local methods (the method itself- Unbend- is new, but many others have been described previously). In fact, the use of 2DTM is perhaps a more interesting novelty of the work, and here, a more systematic study comparing different methods with these proposed well-defined metrics would be very valuable. As currently presented, there is no doubt that it is better than an older, well-established approach, and the way to measure "better" is very interesting, but there is no indication of how the situation stands regarding newer methods.

      Regarding practical aspects, it seems that the current implementation of the method is significantly slower than other patch-based approaches. If its results are shown to exceed those of existing local methods, then exploring the use of Unbend, possibly optimizing its code first, could be a valuable task. However, without more recent comparisons, the impact of Unbend remains unclear.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors present a new method, Unbend, for measuring motion in cryo-EM images, with a particular emphasis on more challenging in situ samples such as lamella and whole cells<br /> (that can be more prone to overall motion and/or variability in motion across a field of view). Building on their previous approach of full-frame alignment (Unblur), they now perform full-frame alignment followed by patch alignment, and then use these outputs to generate a 3D cubic spline model of the motion. This model allows them to estimate a continuous, per-pixel shift field for each movie frame that aims to better describe complex motions and so ultimately generate improved motion-corrected micrographs. Performance of Unbend is evaluated using the 2D template matching (2DTM) method developed previously by the lab, and results are compared to using full-frame correction alone. Several different in situ samples are used for evaluation, covering a broad range that will be of interest to the rapidly growing in situ cryo-EM community.

      Strengths:

      The method appears to be an elegant way of describing complex motions in cryo-EM samples, and the authors present convincing data that Unbend generally improves SNR of aligned micrographs as well as increases detection of particles matching the 60S ribosome template when compared to using full-frame correction alone. The authors also give interesting insights into how different areas of a lamella behave with respect to motion by using Unbend on a montage dataset collected previously by the group. There is growing interest in imaging larger areas of in situ samples at high resolution, and these insights contribute valuable knowledge. Additionally, the availability of data collected in this study through the EMPIAR repository will be much appreciated by the field.

      Weaknesses:

      While the improvements with Unbend vs. Unblur appear clear, it is less obvious whether Unbend provides substantial gains over patch motion correction alone (the current norm in the field). It might be helpful for readers if this comparison were investigated for the in situ datasets. Additionally, the authors are open that in cases where full motion correction already does a good job, the extra degrees of freedom in Unbend can perhaps overfit the motions, making the corrections ultimately worse. I wonder if an adaptive approach could be explored, for example, using the readout from full-frame or patch correction to decide whether a movie should proceed to the full Unbend pipeline, or whether correction should stop at the patch estimation stage.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary

      Kong and coauthors describe and implement a method to correct local deformations due to beam-induced motion in cryo-EM movie frames. This is done by fitting a 3D spline model to a stack of micrograph frames using cross-correlation-based local patch alignment to describe the deformations across the micrograph in each frame, and then computing the value of the deformed micrograph at each pixel by interpolating the undeformed micrograph at the displacement positions given by the spline model. A graphical interface in cisTEM allows the user to visualise the deformations in the sample, and the method has been proven to be successful by showing improvements in 2D template matching (2DTM) results on the corrected micrographs using five in situ samples.

      Impact

      This method has great potential to further streamline the cryo-EM single particle analysis pipeline by shortening the required processing time as a result of obtaining higher quality particles early in the pipeline, and is applicable to both old and new datasets, therefore being relevant to all cryo-EM users.

      Strengths

      (1) One key idea of the paper is that local beam induced motion affects frames continuously in space (in the image plane) as well as in time (along the frame stack), so one can obtain improvements in the image quality by correcting such deformations in a continuous way (deformations vary continuously from pixel to pixel and from frame to frame) rather than based on local discrete patches only. 3D splines are used to model the deformations: they are initialised using local patch alignments and further refined using cross-correlation between individual patch frames and the average of the other frames in the same patch stack.

      (2) Another strength of the paper is using 2DTM to show that correcting such deformations continuously using the proposed method does indeed lead to improvements. This is shown using five in situ datasets, where local motion is quantified using statistics based on the estimated motions of ribosomes.

      Weaknesses

      (1) While very interesting, it is not clear how the proposed method using 3D splines for estimating local deformations compares with other existing methods that also aim to correct local beam-induced motion by approximating the deformations throughout the frames using other types of approximation, such as polynomials, as done, for example MotionCor2.

      (2) The use of 2DTM is appropriate, and the results of the analysis are enlightening, but one shortcoming is that some relevant technical details are missing. For example, the 2DTM SNR is not defined in the article, and it is not clear how the authors ensured that no false positives were included in the particles counted before and after deformation correction. The Jupyter notebooks where this analysis was performed have not been made publicly available.

      (3) It is also not clear how the proposed deformation correction method is affected by CTF defocus in the different samples (are the defocus values used in the different datasets similar or significantly different?) or if there is any effect at all.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study identifies the Periportal Lamellar Complex (PLC), an important new structure revealed by a novel 3D imaging method. However, the evidence supporting its distinct cellular identity and functional role is currently incomplete, as it relies on transcriptomic re-analysis and correlation without direct experimental validation. Addressing the key issues of methodological rigor and providing functional evidence is essential to fully substantiate these significant claims.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Chengjian Zhao et al. focused on the interactions between vascular, biliary, and neural networks in the liver microenvironment, addressing the critical bottleneck that the lack of high-resolution 3D visualization has hindered understanding of these interactions in liver disease.

      Strengths:

      This study developed a high-resolution multiplex 3D imaging method that integrates multicolor metallic compound nanoparticle (MCNP) perfusion with optimized CUBIC tissue clearing. This method enables the simultaneous 3D visualization of spatial networks of the portal vein, hepatic artery, bile ducts, and central vein in the mouse liver. The authors reported a perivascular structure termed the Periportal Lamellar Complex (PLC), which is identified along the portal vein axis. This study clarifies that the PLC comprises CD34⁺Sca-1⁺ dual-positive endothelial cells with a distinct gene expression profile, and reveals its colocalization with terminal bile duct branches and sympathetic nerve fibers under physiological conditions.

      Weaknesses:

      This manuscript is well-written, organized, and informative. However, there are some points that need to be clarified.

      (1) After MCNP-dye injection, does it remain in the blood vessels, adsorb onto the cell surface, or permeate into the cells? Does the MCNP-dye have cell selectivity?

      (2) All MCNP-dyes were injected after the mice were sacrificed, and the mice's livers were fixed with PFA. After the blood flow had ceased, how did the authors ensure that the MCNP-dyes were fully and uniformly perfused into the microcirculation of the liver?

      (3) It is advisable to present additional 3D perspective views in the article, as the current images exhibit very weak 3D effects. Furthermore, it would be better to supplement with some videos to demonstrate the 3D effects of the stained blood vessels.

      (4) In Figure 1-I, the authors used MCNP-Black to stain the central veins; however, in addition to black, there are also yellow and red stains in the image. The authors need to explain what these stains are in the legend.

      (5) There is a typo in the title of Figure 4F; it should be "stem cell".

      (6) Nuclear staining is necessary in immunofluorescence staining, especially for Figure 5e. This will help readers distinguish whether the green color in the image corresponds to cells or dye deposits.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The present manuscript of Xu et al. reports a novel clearing and imaging method focusing on the liver. The authors simultaneously visualized the portal vein, hepatic artery, central vein, and bile duct systems by injecting metal compound nanoparticles (MCNPs) with different colors into the portal vein, heart left ventricle, inferior vena cava, and the extrahepatic bile duct, respectively. The method involves: trans-cardiac perfusion with 4% PFA, the injection of MCNPs with different colors, clearing with the modified CUBIC method, cutting 200 micrometer thick slices by vibratome, and then microscopic imaging. The authors also perform various immunostaining (DAB or TSA signal amplification methods) on the tissue slices from MCNP-perfused tissue blocks. With the application of this methodical approach, the authors report dense and very fine vascular branches along the portal vein. The authors name them as 'periportal lamellar complex (PLC)' and report that PLC fine branches are directly connected to the sinusoids. The authors also claim that these structures co-localize with terminal bile duct branches and sympathetic nerve fibers, and contain endothelial cells with a distinct gene expression profile. Finally, the authors claim that PLC-s proliferate in liver fibrosis (CCl4 model) and act as a scaffold for proliferating bile ducts in ductular reaction and for ectopic parenchymal sympathetic nerve sprouting.

      Strengths:

      The simultaneous visualization of different hepatic vascular compartments and their combination with immunostaining is a potentially interesting novel methodological approach.

      Weaknesses:

      This reviewer has several concerns about the validity of the microscopic/morphological findings as well as the transcriptomics results. In this reviewer's opinion, the introduction contains overstatements regarding the potential of the method, there are severe caveats in the method descriptions, and several parts of the Results are not fully supported by the documentation. Thus, the conclusions of the paper may be critically viewed in their present form and may need reconsideration by the authors.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In the reviewed manuscript, researchers aimed to overcome the obstacles of high-resolution imaging of intact liver tissue. They report successful modification of the existing CUBIC protocol into Liver-CUBIC, a high-resolution multiplex 3D imaging method that integrates multicolor metallic compound nanoparticle (MCNP) perfusion with optimized liver tissue clearing, significantly reducing clearing time and enabling simultaneous 3D visualization of the portal vein, hepatic artery, bile ducts, and central vein spatial networks in the mouse liver. Using this novel platform, the researchers describe a previously unrecognized perivascular structure they termed Periportal Lamellar Complex (PLC), regularly distributed along the portal vein axis. The PLC originates from the portal vein and is characterized by a unique population of CD34⁺Sca-1⁺ dual-positive endothelial cells. Using available scRNAseq data, the authors assessed the CD34⁺Sca-1⁺ cells' expression profile, highlighting the mRNA presence of genes linked to neurodevelopment, biliary function, and hematopoietic niche potential. Different aspects of this analysis were then addressed by protein staining of selected marker proteins in the mouse liver tissue. Next, the authors addressed how the PLC and biliary system react to CCL4-induced liver fibrosis, implying PLC dynamically extends, acting as a scaffold that guides the migration and expansion of terminal bile ducts and sympathetic nerve fibers into the hepatic parenchyma upon injury.

      The work clearly demonstrates the usefulness of the Liver-CUBIC technique and the improvement of both resolution and complexity of the information, gained by simultaneous visualization of multiple vascular and biliary systems of the liver at the same time. The identification of PLC and the interpretation of its function represent an intriguing set of observations that will surely attract the attention of liver biologists as well as hepatologists; however, some claims need more thorough assessment by functional experimental approaches to decipher the functional molecules and the sequence of events before establishing the PLC as the key hub governing the activity of biliary, arterial, and neuronal liver systems. Similarly, the level of detail of the methods section does not appear to be sufficient to exactly recapitulate the performed experiments, which is of concern, given that the new technique is a cornerstone of the manuscript.

      Nevertheless, the work does bring a clear new insight into the liver structure and functional units and greatly improves the methodological toolbox to study it even further, and thus fully deserves the attention of readers.

      Strengths:

      The authors clearly demonstrate an improved technique tailored to the visualization of the liver vasulo-biliary architecture in unprecedented resolution.

      This work proposes a new biological framework between the portal vein, hepatic arteries, biliary tree, and intrahepatic innervation, centered at previously underappreciated protrusions of the portal veins - the Periportal Lamellar Complexes (PLCs).

      Weaknesses:

      Possible overinterpretation of the CD34+Sca1+ findings was built on re-analysis of one scRNAseq dataset.

      Lack of detail in the materials and methods section greatly limits the usefulness of the new technique to other researchers.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study presents valuable findings on the role of KLF6 in in vitro endothelial cells exposed to altered (high or low) shear stress with a customized microfluidic device to investigate mechanisms of atherosclerosis. The finding that altered shear stress results in endothelial cell ferroptosis through reduced expression of KLF6 is compelling and adds a new layer of complexity to the pathogenesis of atherosclerotic plaques. However, the inclusion of an arterial cell line and re-evaluation of the statistical tests used would strengthen the authors' conclusions.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors used an in vitro microfluidic system where HUVECs are exposed to high, low, or physiologic (normal) shear stress to demonstrate that both high and low shear stress for 24 hours resulted in decreased KLF6 expression, decreased lipid peroxidation, and increased cell death, which was reversible upon treatment with Fer-1, the ferroptosis inhibitor. RNA sequencing (LSS vs normal SS) revealed decreased steroid synthesis and UPR signaling in low shear stress conditions, which they confirmed by showing reduced expression of proteins that mitigate ER stress under both LSS and HSS. Decreased KLF6 expression after exposure to HSS/LSS was associated with decreased expression of regulators of ER stress (PERK, BiP, MVD), which was restored with KLF6 overexpression. Overexpression of KLF6 also restored SLC7A11 expression, Coq10, and reduced c11 bodipy oxidation state- all markers of lipid peroxidation and ferroptosis. The authors then used vascular smooth muscle cells (atherosclerotic model) with HUVECs and monocytes to show that KLF6 overexpression reduces the adhesion of monocytes and lipid accumulation in conditions of low shear stress.

      Strengths:

      (1) The use of a microfluidic device to simulate shear stress while keeping the pressure constant when varying the shear stress applied is improved and more physiologic compared to traditional cone and shearing devices. Similarly, the utilization of both low and high shear stress in most experiments is a strength.

      (2) This study provides a link between disturbed shear stress and ferroptosis, which is novel, and fits nicely with existing knowledge that endothelial cell ferroptosis promotes atherosclerosis. This concept was also recently reported in September 2025, when a publication also demonstrated that LSS triggers ferroptosis in vascular endothelial cells (PMID: 40939914), which partly validates these findings.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) While HUVECs are commonly used in endothelial in vitro studies, it would be preferable to confirm the findings using an arterial cell line, such as human coronary artery cells, when studying mechanisms of early atherosclerosis. Furthermore, physiologic arterial shear stress is higher than venous shear stress, and different vascular beds have varying responses to altered shear stress; as such, the up- and downregulated pathways in HUVECs should be confirmed in an arterial system.

      (2) The authors provide convincing evidence of disturbances in shear stress inducing endothelial ferroptosis with assays for impaired lipid peroxidation and increased cell death that was reversed with a ferroptosis inhibitor. However, more detailed characterization of ferroptosis with iron accumulation assays, as well as evaluating GPX4 activity as a consequence of the impaired mevalonate pathway, and testing for concomitant apoptosis in addition to ferroptosis, would add to the data.

      (3) The authors state that KLF2 and KLF4 are not amongst the differentially expressed genes downregulated by reduced shear stress, which is contrary to previous data, where both KLF2 and KLF4 are well studied to be upregulated by physiologic laminar shear stress. While this might be due to the added pressure in their microfluidic system, it also might be due to changes in gene expression over time. In this case, a time course experiment would be needed. It is possible that KLF2, KLF4 and KLF6 are all reduced in low (and high) shear stress and cooperatively regulate the endothelial cell phenotype. Both KLF2 and KLF4 have been shown to be protective against atherosclerosis.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Cui et al. titled "abnormal shear stress induces ferroptosis in endothelial cells via KLF6 downregulation" investigated in a microfluidic device the effect of 24-hour low, medium, and high shear stress levels upon human vein endothelial cells. The authors found that KLF6 is an important regulator of endothelial cell ferroptosis through the BiP-PERK-Slc7a11 and MVD-ID11-CoQ10 axis under both low and high shear stress, postulating this may explain the spatial preference of atherosclerosis at bifurcations of the arteries.

      Strengths:

      The main strength of the study is the use of a microfluidic device within which the authors could vary the shear stress (low, medium, high), whilst keeping fluid pressure near the physiological range of 70 mmHg. Deciding to focus on transcription factors that respond to shear stress, the authors found KLF6 in their dataset, for which they provide compelling evidence that endothelial cell ferroptosis is triggered by both excessive and insufficient shear stress, inversely correlating with KLF6 expression. Importantly, it was demonstrated that cell death in endothelial cells during HSS and LSS was prevented through the addition of Fer-1, supporting the role of ferroptosis. Moreso, the importance of KLF6 as an essential regulator was demonstrated through KLF6 overexpression.

      Weaknesses:

      There are some major concerns with the results:

      (1) Inappropriate statistical tests were used (i.e., an unpaired t-test cannot be used to compare more than two groups).<br /> (2) Inconsistencies in western blot normalization as different proteins seem to have been used (GAPDH and B-actin) without specifying which is used when and why this differs.<br /> (3) Absence of transcriptomic analysis on HSS-exposed endothelial cells (which is not explained).

      Moreso, the conclusions are predominantly based on an in vitro microfluidic chip model seeded with HUVECs. Although providing mechanistic insight into the effects of shear stress on (venous) endothelial cells, it does not recapitulate the in vivo complexity. The absence of validation (a.o. levels of KLF6) in clinical samples and/or animal models limits the translatability of the reported findings towards atherosclerosis. Among others, assessing the spatial heterogeneity of KLF6 abundance in atherosclerotic plaques depending on its proximity to arterial bifurcations may be interesting.

      Points to be addressed:

      (1) As a statistical test, the authors report having used unpaired t-tests; however, often three groups are compared for which t-tests are inadequate. This is faulty as, amongst other things, it does not take multiple comparison testing into account.

      (2) Both B-Actin and GAPDH seem to have been used for protein-level normalization. Why? The Figure 2HL first panel reports B-actin, whereas the other three report GAPDH. The same applies to Figures 3E-F, where both are shown, and it is not mentioned which of the two has been used. Moreso, uncropped blots seem to be unavailable as supplementary data for proper review. These should be provided as supplementary data.

      (3) LSS and MSS were compared based on transcriptomic analysis. Conversely, RNA sequencing was not reported for the HSS. Why is this data missing? It would be valuable to assess transcriptomics following HSS, and also to allow transcriptomic comparison of LSS and HSS.

      (4) Actual sample sizes should be reported rather than "three or more". Moreso, it would be beneficial to show individual datapoints in bar graphs rather than only mean with SD if sample sizes are below 10 (e.g., Figures 1B-H, Figure 2G, etc.).

      (5) The authors claim that by modifying the thickness of the middle layer, shear stress could be modified, whilst claiming to keep on-site pressure within physiological ranges (approx. 70 mmHg) as a hallmark of their microfluidic devices. Has it been experimentally verified that pressures indeed remain around 70 mmHg?

      (6) A coculture model (VSMC, EC, monocytes) is mentioned in the last part of the results section without any further information. Information on this model should be provided in the methods section (seeding, cell numbers, etc.). Moreover, comparison of LSS vs LSS+KLF6 OE and HSS vs HSS+KLF6 OE is shown. It would benefit the interpretation of the outcomes if MSS were also shown. I twould also be beneficial to demonstrate differences between LSS, MSS, and HSS in this coculture model (without KLF6 OE).

      (7) The experiments were solely performed with a venous endothelial cell line (HUVECs). Was the use of an arterial endothelial cell line considered? It may translate better towards atherosclerosis, which occurs within arteries. HUVECs are not accustomed to the claimed near-physiological pressures.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This important study provides new insights into the synchronization of ripple oscillations in the hippocampus, both within and across hemispheres. Using carefully designed statistical methods, it presents compelling evidence that synchrony is significantly higher within a hemisphere than across. This study will be of interest to neuroscientists studying the hippocampus and memory.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary

      The authors completed a statistically rigorous analysis of the synchronization of sharp-wave ripples in the hippocampal CA1 across and within hemispheres. They used a publicly available dataset (collected in the Buzsaki lab) from 4 rats (8 sessions) recorded with silicon probes in both hemispheres. Each session contained approximately 8 hours of activity recorded during rest. The authors found that the characteristics of ripples did not differ between hemispheres, and that most ripples occurred almost simultaneously on all probe shanks within a hemisphere as well as across hemispheres. The differences in amplitude and exact timing of ripples between recording sites increased slightly with distance between recording sites. However, the phase coupling of ripples (in the 100-250 Hz range), changed dramatically with distance between recording sites. Ripples in opposite hemispheres were about 90% less coupled than ripples on nearby tetrodes in the same hemisphere. Phase coupling also decreased with distance within the hemisphere. Finally, pyramidal cell and interneuron spikes were coupled to the local ripple phase and less so to ripples at distant sites or the opposite hemisphere.

      The authors also analyzed the changes in ripple coupling in relation to a couple of behavioral variables. Interestingly, while exposure to a novel track increased ripple abundance by ~5%, it did not change any form of ripple coupling within or between hemispheres.

      Strengths

      The analysis was well-designed and rigorous. The authors used statistical tests well suited to the hypotheses being tested, and clearly explained these tests. The paper is very clearly written, making it easy to understand and reproduce the analysis. The authors included an excellent review of the literature to explain the motivation for their study.

      Weaknesses

      The authors have addressed all of my concerns and recommendations.

      This paper presents an important and unique analysis of ripple coupling. The same method could be used in the future to analyze the effects of other behavioral variables, such as satiety versus hunger, sleep deprivation, or enrichment, to address potential functions and causes of ripple coupling.

    3. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors analyze electrophysiological data recorded bilaterally from the rat hippocampus to investigate the coupling of ripple oscillations across the hemispheres. Commensurate with the majority of previous research, the authors report that ripples tend to co-occur across both hemispheres. Specifically, the amplitude of ripples across hemispheres is correlated but their phase is not. These data corroborate existing models of ripple generation suggesting that CA3 inputs (coordinated across hemispheres via the commisural fibers) drive the sharp-wave component while the individual ripple waves are the result of local interactions between pyramidal cells and interneurons in CA1.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is well-written, the analyses well-executed and the claims are supported by the data.

      Weaknesses:

      One question left unanswered by this study is whether information encoded by the right and left hippocampi is correlated.

      Thank you for raising this important point. While our study demonstrates ripple co-occurrence across hemispheres, we did not directly assess whether the information encoded in each hippocampus is correlated. Addressing this question would require analyses of coordinated activity patterns, such as neuronal assemblies formed during novelty exposure, which falls beyond the scope of the present study. However, we agree this is an important avenue for future work, and we now acknowledge this limitation and outlined it as a future direction in the Conclusion section (lines 796–802).

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors completed a statistically rigorous analysis of the synchronization of sharp-wave ripples in the hippocampal CA1 across and within hemispheres. They used a publicly available dataset (collected in the Buzsaki lab) from 4 rats (8 sessions) recorded with silicon probes in both hemispheres. Each session contained approximately 8 hours of activity recorded during rest. The authors found that the characteristics of ripples did not differ between hemispheres, and that most ripples occurred almost simultaneously on all probe shanks within a hemisphere as well as across hemispheres. The differences in amplitude and exact timing of ripples between recording sites increased slightly with the distance between recording sites. However, the phase coupling of ripples (in the 100-250 Hz range), changed dramatically with the distance between recording sites. Ripples in opposite hemispheres were about 90% less coupled than ripples on nearby tetrodes in the same hemisphere. Phase coupling also decreased with distance within the hemisphere. Finally, pyramidal cell and interneuron spikes were coupled to the local ripple phase and less so to ripples at distant sites or the opposite hemisphere.

      Strengths:

      The analysis was well-designed and rigorous. The authors used statistical tests well suited to the hypotheses being tested, and clearly explained these tests. The paper is very clearly written, making it easy to understand and reproduce the analysis. The authors included an excellent review of the literature to explain the motivation for their study.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors state that their findings (highly coincident ripples between hemispheres), contradict other findings in the literature (in particular the study by Villalobos, Maldonado, and Valdes, 2017), but fail to explain why this large difference exists. They seem to imply that the previous study was flawed, without examining the differences between the studies.

      The paper fails to mention the context in which the data was collected (the behavior the animals performed before and after the analyzed data), which may in fact have a large impact on the results and explain the differences between the current study and that by Villalobos et al. The Buzsaki lab data includes mice running laps in a novel environment in the middle of two rest sessions. Given that ripple occurrence is influenced by behavior, and that the neurons spiking during ripples are highly related to the prior behavioral task, it is likely that exposure to novelty changed the statistics of ripples. Thus, the authors should analyze the pre-behavior rest and post-behavior rest sessions separately. The Villalobos et al. data, in contrast, was collected without any intervening behavioral task or novelty (to my knowledge). Therefore, I predict that the opposing results are a result of the difference in recent experiences of the studied rats, and can actually give us insight into the memory function of ripples.

      We appreciate this thoughtful hypothesis and have now addressed it explicitly. Our main analysis was conducted on 1-hour concatenated SWS epochs recorded before any novel environment exposure (baseline sleep). This was not clearly stated in the original manuscript, so we have now added a clarifying paragraph (lines 131–143). The main findings therefore remain unchanged.

      To directly test the reviewer’s hypothesis, we performed the suggested comparison between pre- and post-maze rest sessions, including maze-type as a factor. These new analyses are now presented in a dedicated Results subsection (lines 475 - 493) and in Supplementary Figure 5.1. While we observed a modest increase in ripple abundance after the maze sessions — consistent with known experienced-dependent changes in ripple occurrence — the key findings of interhemispheric synchrony remained unchanged. Both pre- and post-maze sleep sessions showed robust bilateral time-locking of ripple events and similar dissociations between phase and amplitude coupling across hemispheres.

      In one figure (5), the authors show data separated by session, rather than pooled. They should do this for other figures as well. There is a wide spread between sessions, which further suggests that the results are not as widely applicable as the authors seem to think. Do the sessions with small differences between phase coupling and amplitude coupling have low inter-hemispheric amplitude coupling, or high phase coupling? What is the difference between the sessions with low and high differences in phase vs. amplitude coupling? I noticed that the Buzsaki dataset contains data from rats running either on linear tracks (back and forth), or on circular tracks (unidirectionally). This could create a difference in inter-hemisphere coupling, because rats running on linear tracks would have the same sensory inputs to both hemispheres (when running in opposite directions), while rats running on a circular track would have different sensory inputs coming from the right and left (one side would include stimuli in the middle of the track, and the other would include closer views of the walls of the room). The synchronization between hemispheres might be impacted by how much overlap there was in sensory stimuli processed during the behavior epoch.

      Thank you for this insightful suggestion. In our new analyses comparing pre- and post-maze sessions, we have also addressed this question. Supplementary Figures 4.1 and 5.1 (E-F) present coupling metrics averaged per session and include coding for maze type. Additionally, we have incorporated the reviewer’s hypothesis regarding sensory input differences and their potential impact on inter-hemispheric synchronization into a new Results subsection (lines 475–493).

      The paper would be a lot stronger if the authors analyzed some of the differences between datasets, sessions, and epochs based on the task design, and wrote more about these issues. There may be more publicly available bi-hemispheric datasets to validate their results.

      To further validate our findings, we have analyzed another publicly available dataset that includes bilateral CA1 recordings (https://crcns.org/data-sets/hc/hc-18). We have added a description of this dataset and our analysis approach in the Methods section (lines 119–125 and 144-145), and present the corresponding results in a new Supplementary Figure (Supplementary Figure 4.2). These new analyses replicated our main findings, confirming robust interhemispheric time-locking of ripple events and a greater dissociation between phase and amplitude coupling in ipsilateral versus contralateral recordings.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      My only suggestion is that the introduction can be shortened. The authors discuss in great length literature linking ripples and memory, although the findings in the paper are not linked to memory. In addition, ripples have been implicated in non-mnemonic functions such as sleep and metabolic homeostasis.

      The reviewer`s suggestion is valid and aligns with the main message of our paper. However, we believe that the relationship between ripples and memory has been extensively discussed in the literature, sometimes overshadowing other important functional roles (based on the reviewer’s comment, we now also refer to non-mnemonic functions of ripples in the revised introduction [lines 87–89]). Thus, we find it important to retain this context because highlighting the publication bias towards mnemonic interpretations helps frame the need for studies like ours that revisit still incompletely understood basic ripple mechanisms.

      We also note that, based on a suggestion from reviewer 2, we have supplemented our manuscript with a new figure demonstrating ripple abundance increases during SWS following novel environment exposure (Supplementary Figure 5.1), linking it to memory and replicating the findings of Eschenko et al. (2008), though we present this result as a covariate, aimed at controlling for potential sources of variation in ripple synchronization.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      It would be useful to include more information about the analyzed dataset in the methods section, e.g. how long were the recordings, how many datasets per rat, did the authors analyze the entire recording epoch or sub-divide it in any way, how many ripples were detected per recording (approximately).

      We have now included more detailed information in the Methods section (lines 104 - 145).

      A few of the references to sub-figures are mislabeled (e.g. lines 327-328).

      Thank you for noticing these inconsistencies. We have carefully reviewed and corrected all figure sub-panel labels and references throughout the manuscript.

      In Figure 7 C&D, are the neurons on the left sorted by contralateral ripple phase? It doesn't look like it. It would be easier to compare to ipsilateral if they were.

      In Figures 7C and 7D, neurons are sorted by their ipsilateral peak ripple phase, with the contralateral data plotted using the same ordering to facilitate comparison. To avoid confusion, we have clarified this explicitly in the figure legend and corresponding main text (lines 544–550).

      In Figure 6, using both bin sizes 50 and 100 doesn't contribute much.

      We used both 50 ms and 100 ms bin sizes to directly compare with previous studies (Villalobos et al. 2017 used 5 ms and 100 ms; Csicsvari et al. 2000 used 5–50 ms). Because the proportion of coincident ripples is a non-decreasing function of the window size, larger bins can inflate coincidence measures. Including a mid-range bin of 50 ms allowed us to show that high coincidence levels are reached well before the 100 ms upper bound, supporting that the 100 ms window is not an overshoot. We have added clarification on this point in the Methods section on ripple coincidence (lines 204–212).

    1. eLife Assessment

      This important study combines EEG, neural networks and multivariate pattern analysis to show that real-world size, retinal size and real-world depth are represented at different latencies. The evidence presented is convincing and the work will be of broader interest to the experimental and computational vision community.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Lu & Golomb combined EEG, artificial neural networks, and multivariate pattern analyses to examine how different visual variables are processed in the brain. The conclusions of the paper are mostly well supported.

      The authors find that not only real-world size is represented in the brain (which was known), but both retinal size and real-world depth is represented, at different time points or latencies, which may reflect different stages of processing. Prior work has not been able to answer the question of real-world depth due to stimuli used. The authors made this possible by assess real-world depth and testing it with appropriate methodology, accounting for retinal and real-world size. The methodological approach combining behavior, RSA, and ANNs is creative and well thought out to appropriately assess the research questions, and the findings may be very compelling if backed up with some clarifications and further analyses.

      The work will be of interest to experimental and computational vision scientists, as well as the broader computational cognitive neuroscience community as the methodology is of interest and the code is or will be made available. The work is important as it is currently not clear what the correspondence between many deep neural network models are and the brain are, and this work pushes our knowledge forward on this front. Furthermore, the availability of methods and data will be useful for the scientific community.

    3. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      The authors used an open EEG dataset of observers viewing real-world objects. Each object had a real-world size value (from human rankings), a retinal size value (measured from each image), and a scene depth value (inferred from the above). The authors combined the EEG and object measurements with extant, pre-trained models (a deep convolutional neural network, a multimodal ANN, and Word2vec) to assess the time course of processing object size (retinal and real-world) and depth. They found that depth was processed first, followed by retinal size, and then real-world size. The depth time course roughly corresponded to the visual ANNs, while the real-world size time course roughly corresponded to the more semantic models.

      The time course result for the three object attributes is very clear and a novel contribution to the literature. The authors have revised the ANN motivations to increase clarity. Additionally, the authors have appropriately toned down some of the language about novelty, and the addition of a noise ceiling has helped the robustness of the work.

      While I appreciate the addition of Cornet in the Supplement, I am less compelled by the authors' argument for Word2Vec over LLMs for "pure" semantic embeddings. While I'm not digging in on this point, this choice may prematurely age this work.

    4. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Lu & Golomb combined EEG, artificial neural networks, and multivariate pattern analyses to examine how different visual variables are processed in the brain. The conclusions of the paper are mostly well supported, but some aspects of methods and data analysis would benefit from clarification and potential extensions.

      The authors find that not only real-world size is represented in the brain (which was known), but both retinal size and real-world depth are represented, at different time points or latencies, which may reflect different stages of processing. Prior work has not been able to answer the question of real-world depth due to the stimuli used. The authors made this possible by assessing real-world depth and testing it with appropriate methodology, accounting for retinal and real-world size. The methodological approach combining behavior, RSA, and ANNs is creative and well thought out to appropriately assess the research questions, and the findings may be very compelling if backed up with some clarifications and further analyses.

      The work will be of interest to experimental and computational vision scientists, as well as the broader computational cognitive neuroscience community as the methodology is of interest and the code is or will be made available. The work is important as it is currently not clear what the correspondence between many deep neural network models and the brain is, and this work pushes our knowledge forward on this front. Furthermore, the availability of methods and data will be useful for the scientific community.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper aims to test if neural representations of images of objects in the human brain contain a 'pure' dimension of real-world size that is independent of retinal size or perceived depth. To this end, they apply representational similarity analysis on EEG responses in 10 human subjects to a set of 200 images from a publicly available database (THINGS-EEG2), correlating pairwise distinctions in evoked activity between images with pairwise differences in human ratings of real-world size (from THINGS+). By partialling out correlations with metrics of retinal size and perceived depth from the resulting EEG correlation time courses, the paper claims to identify an independent representation of real-world size starting at 170 ms in the EEG signal. Further comparisons with artificial neural networks and language embeddings lead the authors to claim this correlation reflects a relatively 'high-level' and 'stable' neural representation.

      Strengths:

      The paper features insightful figures/illustrations and clear figures.

      The limitations of prior work motivating the current study are clearly explained and seem reasonable (although the rationale for why using 'ecological' stimuli with backgrounds matters when studying real-world size could be made clearer; one could also argue the opposite, that to get a 'pure' representation of the real-world size of an 'object concept', one should actually show objects in isolation).

      The partial correlation analysis convincingly demonstrates how correlations between feature spaces can affect their correlations with EEG responses (and how taking into account these correlations can disentangle them better).

      The RSA analysis and associated statistical methods appear solid.

      Weaknesses:

      The claim of methodological novelty is overblown. Comparing image metrics, behavioral measurements, and ANN activations against EEG using RSA is a commonly used approach to study neural object representations. The dataset size (200 test images from THINGS) is not particularly large, and neither is comparing pre-trained DNNs and language models, or using partial correlations.

      Thanks for your feedback. We agree that the methods used in our study – such as RSA, partial correlations, and the use of pretrained ANN and language models – are indeed well-established in the literature. We therefore revised the manuscript to more carefully frame our contribution: rather than emphasizing methodological novelty in isolation, we now highlight the combination of techniques, the application to human EEG data with naturalistic images, and the explicit dissociation of real-world size, retinal size, and depth representations as the primary strengths of our approach. Corresponding language in the Abstract, Introduction, and Discussion has been adjusted to reflect this more precise positioning:

      (Abstract, line 34 to 37) “our study combines human EEG and representational similarity analysis to disentangle neural representations of object real-world size from retinal size and perceived depth, leveraging recent datasets and modeling approaches to address challenges not fully resolved in previous work.”

      (Introduction, line 104 to 106) “we overcome these challenges by combining human EEG recordings, naturalistic stimulus images, artificial neural networks, and computational modeling approaches including representational similarity analysis (RSA) and partial correlation analysis …”

      (Introduction, line 108) “We applied our integrated computational approach to an open EEG dataset…”

      (Introduction, line 142 to 143) “The integrated computational approach by cross-modal representational comparisons we take with the current study…”

      (Discussion, line 550 to 552) “our study goes beyond the contributions of prior studies in several key ways, offering both theoretical and methodological advances: …”

      The claims also seem too broad given the fairly small set of RDMs that are used here (3 size metrics, 4 ANN layers, 1 Word2Vec RDM): there are many aspects of object processing not studied here, so it's not correct to say this study provides a 'detailed and clear characterization of the object processing process'.

      Thanks for pointing this out. We softened language in our manuscript to reflect that our findings provide a temporally resolved characterization of selected object features, rather than a comprehensive account of object processing:

      (line 34 to 37) “our study combines human EEG and representational similarity analysis to disentangle neural representations of object real-world size from retinal size and perceived depth, leveraging recent datasets and modeling approaches to address challenges not fully resolved in previous work.”

      (line 46 to 48) “Our research provides a temporally resolved characterization of how certain key object properties – such as object real-world size, depth, and retinal size – are represented in the brain, …”

      The paper lacks an analysis demonstrating the validity of the real-world depth measure, which is here computed from the other two metrics by simply dividing them. The rationale and logic of this metric is not clearly explained. Is it intended to reflect the hypothesized egocentric distance to the object in the image if the person had in fact been 'inside' the image? How do we know this is valid? It would be helpful if the authors provided a validation of this metric.

      We appreciate the comment regarding the real-world depth metric. Specifically, this metric was computed as the ratio of real-world size (obtained via behavioral ratings) to measured retinal size. The rationale behind this computation is grounded in the basic principles of perspective projection: for two objects subtending the same retinal size, the physically larger object is presumed to be farther away. This ratio thus serves as a proxy for perceived egocentric depth under the simplifying assumption of consistent viewing geometry across images.

      We acknowledge that this is a derived estimate and not a direct measurement of perceived depth. While it provides a useful approximation that allows us to analytically dissociate the contributions of real-world size and depth in our RSA framework, we agree that future work would benefit from independent perceptual depth ratings to validate or refine this metric. We added more discussions about this to our revised manuscript:

      (line 652 to 657) “Additionally, we acknowledge that our metric for real-world depth was derived indirectly as the ratio of perceived real-world size to retinal size. While this formulation is grounded in geometric principles of perspective projection and served the purpose of analytically dissociating depth from size in our RSA framework, it remains a proxy rather than a direct measure of perceived egocentric distance. Future work incorporating behavioral or psychophysical depth ratings would be valuable for validating and refining this metric.”

      Given that there is only 1 image/concept here, the factor of real-world size may be confounded with other things, such as semantic category (e.g. buildings vs. tools). While the comparison of the real-world size metric appears to be effectively disentangled from retinal size and (the author's metric of) depth here, there are still many other object properties that are likely correlated with real-world size and therefore will confound identifying a 'pure' representation of real-world size in EEG. This could be addressed by adding more hypothesis RDMs reflecting different aspects of the images that may correlate with real-world size.

      We thank the reviewer for this thoughtful and important point. We agree that semantic category and real-world size may be correlated, and that semantic structure is one of the plausible sources of variance contributing to real-world size representations. However, we would like to clarify that our original goal was to isolate real-world size from two key physical image features — retinal size and inferred real-world depth — which have been major confounds in prior work on this topic. We acknowledge that although our analysis disentangled real-world size from depth and retinal size, this does not imply a fully “pure” representation; therefore, we now refer to the real-world size representations as “partially disentangled” throughout the manuscript to reflect this nuance.

      Interestingly, after controlling for these physical features, we still found a robust and statistically isolated representation of real-world size in the EEG signal. This motivated the idea that realworld size may be more than a purely perceptual or image-based property — it may be at least partially semantic. Supporting this interpretation, both the late layers of ANN models and the non-visual semantic model (Word2Vec) also captured real-world size structure. Rather than treating semantic information as an unwanted confound, we propose that semantic structure may be an inherent component of how the brain encodes real-world size.

      To directly address the your concern, we conducted an additional variance partitioning analysis, in which we decomposed the variance in EEG RDMs explained by four RDMs: real-world depth, retinal size, real-world size, and semantic information (from Word2Vec). Specifically, for each EEG timepoint, we quantified (1) the unique variance of real-world size, after controlling for semantic similarity, depth, and retinal size; (2) the unique variance of semantic information, after controlling for real-world size, depth, and retinal size; (3) the shared variance jointly explained by real-world size and semantic similarity, controlling for depth and retinal size. This analysis revealed that real-world size explained unique variance in EEG even after accounting for semantic similarity. And there was also a substantial shared variance, indicating partial overlap between semantic structure and size. Semantic information also contributed unique explanatory power, as expected. These results suggest that real-world size is indeed partially semantic in nature, but also has independent neural representation not fully explained by general semantic similarity. This strengthens our conclusion that real-world size functions as a meaningful, higher-level dimension in object representation space.

      We now include this new analysis and a corresponding figure (Figure S8) in the revised manuscript:

      (line 532 to 539) “Second, we conducted a variance partitioning analysis, in which we decomposed the variance in EEG RDMs explained by three hypothesis-based RDMs and the semantic RDM (Word2Vec RDM), and we still found that real-world size explained unique variance in EEG even after accounting for semantic similarity (Figure S9). And we also observed a substantial shared variance jointly explained by real-world size and semantic similarity and a unique variance of semantic information. These results suggest that real-world size is indeed partially semantic in nature, but also has independent neural representation not fully explained by general semantic similarity.”

      The choice of ANNs lacks a clear motivation. Why these two particular networks? Why pick only 2 somewhat arbitrary layers? If the goal is to identify more semantic representations using CLIP, the comparison between CLIP and vision-only ResNet should be done with models trained on the same training datasets (to exclude the effect of training dataset size & quality; cf Wang et al., 2023). This is necessary to substantiate the claims on page 19 which attributed the differences between models in terms of their EEG correlations to one of them being a 'visual model' vs. 'visual-semantic model'.

      We argee that the choice and comparison of models should be better contextualized.

      First, our motivation for selecting ResNet-50 and CLIP ResNet-50 was not to make a definitive comparison between model classes, but rather to include two widely used representatives of their respective categories—one trained purely on visual information (ResNet-50 on ImageNet) and one trained with joint visual and linguistic supervision (CLIP ResNet-50 on image–text pairs). These models are both highly influential and commonly used in computational and cognitive neuroscience, allowing for relevant comparisons with existing work (line 181-187).

      Second, we recognize that limiting the EEG × ANN correlation analyses to only early and late layers may be viewed as insufficiently comprehensive. To address this point, we have computed the EEG correlations with multiple layers in both ResNet and CLIP models (ResNet: ResNet.maxpool, ResNet.layer1, ResNet.layer2, ResNet.layer3, ResNet.layer4, ResNet.avgpool; CLIP: CLIP.visual.avgpool, CLIP.visual.layer1, CLIP.visual.layer2, CLIP.visual.layer3, CLIP.visual.layer4, CLIP.visual.attnpool). The results, now included in Figure S4, show a consistent trend: early layers exhibit higher similarity to early EEG time points, and deeper layers show increased similarity to later EEG stages. We chose to highlight early and late layers in the main text to simplify interpretation.

      Third, we appreciate the reviewer’s point that differences in training datasets (ImageNet vs. CLIP's dataset) may confound any attribution of differences in brain alignment to the models' architectural or learning differences. We agree that the comparisons between models trained on matched datasets (e.g., vision-only vs. multimodal models trained on the same image–text corpus) would allow for more rigorous conclusions. Thus, we explicitly acknowledged this limitation in the text:

      (line 443 to 445) “However, it is also possible that these differences between ResNet and CLIP reflect differences in training data scale and domain.”

      The first part of the claim on page 22 based on Figure 4 'The above results reveal that realworld size emerges with later peak neural latencies and in the later layers of ANNs, regardless of image background information' is not valid since no EEG results for images without backgrounds are shown (only ANNs).

      We revised the sentence to clarify that this is a hypothesis based on the ANN results, not an empirical EEG finding:

      (line 491 to 495) “These results show that real-world size emerges in the later layers of ANNs regardless of image background information, and – based on our prior EEG results – although we could not test object-only images in the EEG data, we hypothesize that a similar temporal profile would be observed in the brain, even for object-only images.”

      While we only had the EEG data of human subjects viewing naturalistic images, the ANN results suggest that real-world size representations may still emerge at later processing stages even in the absence of background, consistent with what we observed in EEG under with-background conditions.

      The paper is likely to impact the field by showcasing how using partial correlations in RSA is useful, rather than providing conclusive evidence regarding neural representations of objects and their sizes.

      Additional context important to consider when interpreting this work:

      Page 20, the authors point out similarities of peak correlations between models ('Interestingly, the peaks of significant time windows for the EEG × HYP RSA also correspond with the peaks of the EEG × ANN RSA timecourse (Figure 3D,F)'. Although not explicitly stated, this seems to imply that they infer from this that the ANN-EEG correlation might be driven by their representation of the hypothesized feature spaces. However this does not follow: in EEG-image metric model comparisons it is very typical to see multiple peaks, for any type of model, this simply reflects specific time points in EEG at which visual inputs (images) yield distinctive EEG amplitudes (perhaps due to stereotypical waves of neural processing?), but one cannot infer the information being processed is the same. To investigate this, one could for example conduct variance partitioning or commonality analysis to see if there is variance at these specific timepoints that is shared by a specific combination of the hypothesis and ANN feature spaces.

      Thanks for your thoughtful observation! Upon reflection, we agree that the sentence – "Interestingly, the peaks of significant time windows for the EEG × HYP RSA also correspond with the peaks of the EEG × ANN RSA timecourse" – was speculative and risked implying a causal link that our data do not warrant. As you rightly points out, observing coincident peak latencies across different models does not necessarily imply shared representational content, given the stereotypical dynamics of evoked EEG responses. And we think even variance partitioning analysis would still not suffice to infer that ANN-EEG correlations are driven specifically by hypothesized feature spaces. Accordingly, we have removed this sentence from the manuscript to avoid overinterpretation. 

      Page 22 mentions 'The significant time-window (90-300ms) of similarity between Word2Vec RDM and EEG RDMs (Figure 5B) contained the significant time-window of EEG x real-world size representational similarity (Figure 3B)'. This is not particularly meaningful given that the Word2Vec correlation is significant for the entire EEG epoch (from the time-point of the signal 'arriving' in visual cortex around ~90 ms) and is thus much less temporally specific than the realworld size EEG correlation. Again a stronger test of whether Word2Vec indeed captures neural representations of real-world size could be to identify EEG time-points at which there are unique Word2Vec correlations that are not explained by either ResNet or CLIP, and see if those timepoints share variance with the real-world size hypothesized RDM.

      We appreciate your insightful comment. Upon reflection, we agree that the sentence – "'The significant time-window (90-300ms) of similarity between Word2Vec RDM and EEG RDMs (Figure 5B) contained the significant time-window of EEG x real-world size representational similarity (Figure 3B)" – was speculative. And we have removed this sentence from the manuscript to avoid overinterpretation. 

      Additionally, we conducted two analyses as you suggested in the supplement. First, we calculated the partial correlation between EEG RDMs and the Word2Vec RDM while controlling for four ANN RDMs (ResNet early/late and CLIP early/late) (Figure S8). Even after regressing out these ANN-derived features, we observed significant correlations between Word2Vec and EEG RDMs in the 100–190 ms and 250–300 ms time windows. This result suggests that

      Word2Vec captures semantic structure in the neural signal that is not accounted for by ResNet or CLIP. Second, we conducted an additional variance partitioning analysis, in which we decomposed the variance in EEG RDMs explained by four RDMs: real-world depth, retinal size, real-world size, and semantic information (from Word2Vec) (Figure S9). And we found significant shared variance between Word2Vec and real-world size at 130–150 ms and 180–250 ms. These results indicate a partially overlapping representational structure between semantic content and real-world size in the brain.

      We also added these in our revised manuscript:

      (line 525 to 539) “To further probe the relationship between real-world size and semantic information, and to examine whether Word2Vec captures variances in EEG signals beyond that explained by visual models, we conducted two additional analyses. First, we performed a partial correlation between EEG RDMs and the Word2Vec RDM, while regressing out four ANN RDMs (early and late layers of both ResNet and CLIP) (Figure S8). We found that semantic similarity remained significantly correlated with EEG signals across sustained time windows (100-190ms and 250-300ms), indicating that Word2Vec captures neural variance not fully explained by visual or visual-language models. Second, we conducted a variance partitioning analysis, in which we decomposed the variance in EEG RDMs explained by three hypothesis-based RDMs and the semantic RDM (Word2Vec RDM), and we still found that real-world size explained unique variance in EEG even after accounting for semantic similarity (Figure S9). And we also observed a substantial shared variance jointly explained by realworld size and semantic similarity and a unique variance of semantic information. These results suggest that real-world size is indeed partially semantic in nature, but also has independent neural representation not fully explained by general semantic similarity.”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The authors used an open EEG dataset of observers viewing real-world objects. Each object had a real-world size value (from human rankings), a retinal size value (measured from each image), and a scene depth value (inferred from the above). The authors combined the EEG and object measurements with extant, pre-trained models (a deep convolutional neural network, a multimodal ANN, and Word2vec) to assess the time course of processing object size (retinal and real-world) and depth. They found that depth was processed first, followed by retinal size, and then real-world size. The depth time course roughly corresponded to the visual ANNs, while the real-world size time course roughly corresponded to the more semantic models.

      The time course result for the three object attributes is very clear and a novel contribution to the literature. However, the motivations for the ANNs could be better developed, the manuscript could better link to existing theories and literature, and the ANN analysis could be modernized. I have some suggestions for improving specific methods.

      (1) Manuscript motivations

      The authors motivate the paper in several places by asking " whether biological and artificial systems represent object real-world size". This seems odd for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the brain must represent real-world size somehow, given that we can reason about this question. Second, given the large behavioral and fMRI literature on the topic, combined with the growing ANN literature, this seems like a foregone conclusion and undermines the novelty of this contribution.

      Thanks for your helpful comment. We agree that asking whether the brain represents real-world size is not a novel question, given the existing behavioral and neuroimaging evidence supporting this. Our intended focus was not on the existence of real-world size representations per se, but the nature of these representations, particularly the relationship between the temporal dynamics and potential mechanisms of representations of real-world size versus other related perceptual properties (e.g., retinal size and real-world depth). We revised the relevant sentence to better reflect our focue, shifting from a binary framing (“whether or not size is represented”) to a more mechanistic and time-resolved inquiry (“how and when such representations emerge”):

      (line 144 to 149) “Unraveling the internal representations of object size and depth features in both human brains and ANNs enables us to investigate how distinct spatial properties—retinal size, realworld depth, and real-world size—are encoded across systems, and to uncover the representational mechanisms and temporal dynamics through which real-world size emerges as a potentially higherlevel, semantically grounded feature.”

      While the introduction further promises to "also investigate possible mechanisms of object realworld size representations.", I was left wishing for more in this department. The authors report correlations between neural activity and object attributes, as well as between neural activity and ANNs. It would be nice to link the results to theories of object processing (e.g., a feedforward sweep, such as DiCarlo and colleagues have suggested, versus a reverse hierarchy, such as suggested by Hochstein, among others). What is semantic about real-world size, and where might this information come from? (Although you may have to expand beyond the posterior electrodes to do this analysis).

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful comment. We agree that understanding the mechanisms underlying real-world size representations is a critical question. While our current study does not directly test specific theoretical frameworks such as the feedforward sweep model or the reverse hierarchy theory, our results do offer several relevant insights: The temporal dynamics revealed by EEG—where real-world size emerges later than retinal size and depth—suggest that such representations likely arise beyond early visual feedforward stages, potentially involving higherlevel semantic processing. This interpretation is further supported by the fact that real-world size is strongly captured by late layers of ANNs and by a purely semantic model (Word2Vec), suggesting its dependence on learned conceptual knowledge.

      While we acknowledge that our analyses were limited to posterior electrodes and thus cannot directly localize the cortical sources of these effects, we view this work as a first step toward bridging low-level perceptual features and higher-level semantic representations. We hope future work combining broader spatial sampling (e.g., anterior EEG sensors or source localization) and multimodal recordings (e.g., MEG, fMRI) can build on these findings to directly test competing models of object processing and representation hierarchy.

      We also added these to the Discussion section:

      (line 619 to 638) “Although our study does not directly test specific models of visual object processing, the observed temporal dynamics provide important constraints for theoretical interpretations. In particular, we find that real-world size representations emerge significantly later than low-level visual features such as retinal size and depth. This temporal profile is difficult to reconcile with a purely feedforward account of visual processing (e.g., DiCarlo et al., 2012), which posits that object properties are rapidly computed in a sequential hierarchy of increasingly complex visual features. Instead, our results are more consistent with frameworks that emphasize recurrent or top-down processing, such as the reverse hierarchy theory (Hochstein & Ahissar, 2002), which suggests that high-level conceptual information may emerge later and involve feedback to earlier visual areas. This interpretation is further supported by representational similarities with late-stage artificial neural network layers and with a semantic word embedding model (Word2Vec), both of which reflect learned, abstract knowledge rather than low-level visual features. Taken together, these findings suggest that real-world size is not merely a perceptual attribute, but one that draws on conceptual or semantic-level representations acquired through experience. While our EEG analyses focused on posterior electrodes and thus cannot definitively localize cortical sources, we see this study as a step toward linking low-level visual input with higher-level semantic knowledge. Future work incorporating broader spatial coverage (e.g., anterior sensors), source localization, or complementary modalities such as MEG and fMRI will be critical to adjudicate between alternative models of object representation and to more precisely trace the origin and flow of real-world size information in the brain.”

      Finally, several places in the manuscript tout the "novel computational approach". This seems odd because the computational framework and pipeline have been the most common approach in cognitive computational neuroscience in the past 5-10 years.

      We have revised relevant statements throughout the manuscript to avoid overstating novelty and to better reflect the contribution of our study.

      (2) Suggestion: modernize the approach

      I was surprised that the computational models used in this manuscript were all 8-10 years old. Specifically, because there are now deep nets that more explicitly model the human brain (e.g., Cornet) as well as more sophisticated models of semantics (e.g., LLMs), I was left hoping that the authors had used more state-of-the-art models in the work. Moreover, the use of a single dCNN, a single multi-modal model, and a single word embedding model makes it difficult to generalize about visual, multimodal, and semantic features in general.

      Thanks for your suggestion. Indeed, our choice of ResNet and CLIP was motivated by their widespread use in the cognitive and computational neuroscience area. These models have served as standard benchmarks in many studies exploring correspondence between ANNs and human brain activity. To address you concern, we have now added additional results from the more biologically inspired model, CORnet, in the supplementary (Figure S10). The results for CORnet show similar patterns to those observed for ResNet and CLIP, providing converging evidence across models.

      Regarding semantic modeling, we intentionally chose Word2Vec rather than large language models (LLMs), because our goal was to examine concept-level, context-free semantic representations. Word2Vec remains the most widely adopted approach for obtaining noncontextualized embeddings that reflect core conceptual similarity, as opposed to the contextdependent embeddings produced by LLMs, which are less directly suited for capturing stable concept-level structure across stimuli.

      (3) Methodological considerations

      (a) Validity of the real-world size measurement

      I was concerned about a few aspects of the real-world size rankings. First, I am trying to understand why the scale goes from 100-519. This seems very arbitrary; please clarify. Second, are we to assume that this scale is linear? Is this appropriate when real-world object size is best expressed on a log scale? Third, the authors provide "sand" as an example of the smallest realworld object. This is tricky because sand is more "stuff" than "thing", so I imagine it leaves observers wondering whether the experimenter intends a grain of sand or a sandy scene region. What is the variability in real-world size ratings? Might the variability also provide additional insights in this experiment?

      We now clarify the origin, scaling, and interpretation of the real-world size values obtained from the THINGS+ dataset.

      In their experiment, participants first rated the size of a single object concept (word shown on the screen) by clicking on a continuous slider of 520 units, which was anchored by nine familiar real-world reference objects (e.g., “grain of sand,” “microwave oven,” “aircraft carrier”) that spanned the full expected size range on a logarithmic scale. Importantly, participants were not shown any numerical values on the scale—they were guided purely by the semantic meaning and relative size of the anchor objects. After the initial response, the scale zoomed in around the selected region (covering 160 units of the 520-point scale) and presented finer anchor points between the previous reference objects. Participants then refined their rating by dragging from the lower to upper end of the typical size range for that object. If the object was standardized in size (e.g., “soccer ball”), a single click sufficed. These size judgments were collected across at least 50 participants per object, and final scores were derived from the central tendency of these responses. Although the final size values numerically range from 0 to 519 (after scaling), this range is not known to participants and is only applied post hoc to construct the size RDMs.

      Regarding the term “sand”: the THINGS+ dataset distinguished between object meanings when ambiguity was present. For “sand,” participants were instructed to treat it as “a grain of sand”— consistent with the intended meaning of a discrete, minimal-size reference object. 

      Finally, we acknowledge that real-world size ratings may carry some degree of variability across individuals. However, the dataset includes ratings from 2010 participants across 1854 object concepts, with each object receiving at least 50 independent ratings. Given this large and diverse sample, the mean size estimates are expected to be stable and robust across subjects. While we did not include variability metrics in our main analysis, we believe the aggregated ratings provide a reliable estimate of perceived real-world size.

      We added these details in the Materials and Method section:

      (line 219 to 230) “In the THINGS+ dataset, 2010 participants (different from the subjects in THINGS EEG2) did an online size rating task and completed a total of 13024 trials corresponding to 1854 object concepts using a two-step procedure. In their experiment, first, each object was rated on a 520unit continuous slider anchored by familiar reference objects (e.g., “grain of sand,” “microwave oven,” “aircraft carrier”) representing a logarithmic size range. Participants were not shown numerical values but used semantic anchors as guides. In the second step, the scale zoomed in around the selected region to allow for finer-grained refinement of the size judgment. Final size values were derived from aggregated behavioral data and rescaled to a range of 0–519 for consistency across objects, with the actual mean ratings across subjects ranging from 100.03 (‘grain of sand’) to 423.09 (‘subway’).”

      (b) This work has no noise ceiling to establish how strong the model fits are, relative to the intrinsic noise of the data. I strongly suggest that these are included.

      We have now computed noise ceiling estimates for the EEG RDMs across time. The noise ceiling was calculated by correlating each participant’s EEG RDM with the average EEG RDM across the remaining participants (leave-one-subject-out), at each time point. This provides an upper-bound estimate of the explainable variance, reflecting the maximum similarity that any model—no matter how complex—could potentially achieve, given the intrinsic variability in the EEG data.

      Importantly, the observed EEG–model similarity values are substantially below this upper bound. This outcome is fully expected: Each of our model RDMs (e.g., real-world size, ANN layers) captures only a specific aspect of the neural representational structure, rather than attempting to account for the totality of the EEG signal. Our goal is not to optimize model performance or maximize fit, but to probe which components of object information are reflected in the spatiotemporal dynamics of the brain’s responses.

      For clarity and accessibility of the main findings, we present the noise ceiling time courses separately in the supplementary materials (Figure S7). Including them directly in the EEG × HYP or EEG × ANN plots would conflate distinct interpretive goals: the model RDMs are hypothesis-driven probes of specific representational content, whereas the noise ceiling offers a normative upper bound for total explainable variance. Keeping these separate ensures each visualization remains focused and interpretable. 

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors)::

      Some analyses are incomplete, which would be improved if the authors showed analyses with other layers of the networks and various additional partial correlation analyses.

      Clarity

      (1) Partial correlations methods incomplete - it is not clear what is being partialled out in each analysis. It is possible to guess sometimes, but it is not entirely clear for each analysis. This is important as it is difficult to assess if the partial correlations are sensible/correct in each case. Also, the Figure 1 caption is short and unclear.

      For example, ANN-EEG partial correlations - "Finally, we directly compared the timepoint-bytimepoint EEG neural RDMs and the ANN RDMs (Figure 3F). The early layer representations of both ResNet and CLIP were significantly correlated with early representations in the human brain" What is being partialled out? Figure 3F says partial correlation

      We apologize for the confusion. We made several key clarifications and corrections in the revised version.

      First, we identified and corrected a labeling error in both Figure 1 and Figure 3F. Specifically, our EEG × ANN analysis used Spearman correlation, not partial correlation as mistakenly indicated in the original figure label and text. We conducted parital correlations for EEG × HYP and ANN × HYP. But for EEG × ANN, we directly calculated the correlation between EEG RDMs and ANN RDM corresponding to different layers respectively. We corrected these errors: (1) In Figure 1, we removed the erroneous “partial” label from the EEG × ANN path and updated the caption to clearly outline which comparisons used partial correlation. (2) In Figure 3F, we corrected the Y-axis label to “(correlation)”.

      Second, to improve clarity, we have now revised the Materials and Methods section to explicitly describe what is partialled out in each parital correlation analysis:

      (line 284 to 286) “In EEG × HYP partial correlation (Figure 3D), we correlated EEG RDMs with one hypothesis-based RDM (e.g., real-world size), while controlling for the other two (retinal size and real-world depth).”

      (line 303 to 305) “In ANN (or W2V) × HYP partial correlation (Figure 3E and Figure 5A), we correlated ANN (or W2V) RDMs with one hypothesis-based RDM (e.g., real-world size), while partialling out the other two.”

      Finally, the caption of Figure 1 has been expanded to clarify the full analysis pipeline and explicitly specify the partial correlation or correlation in each comparison.

      (line 327 to 332) “Figure 1 Overview of our analysis pipeline including constructing three types of RDMs and conducting comparisons between them. We computed RDMs from three sources: neural data (EEG), hypothesized object features (real-world size, retinal size, and real-world depth), and artificial models (ResNet, CLIP, and Word2Vec). Then we conducted cross-modal representational similarity analyses between: EEG × HYP (partial correlation, controlling for other two HYP features), ANN (or W2V) × HYP (partial correlation, controlling for other two HYP features), and EEG × ANN (correlation).”

      We believe these revisions now make all analytic comparisons and correlation types full clear and interpretable.

      Issues / open questions

      (2) Semantic representations vs hypothesized (hyp) RDMs (real-world size, etc) - are the representations explained by variables in hyp RDMs or are there semantic representations over and above these? E.g., For ANN correlation with the brain, you could partial out hyp RDMs - and assess whether there is still semantic information left over, or is the variance explained by the hyp RDMs?

      Thank for this suggestion. As you suggested, we conducted the partial correlation analysis between EEG RDMs and ANN RDMs, controlling for the three hypothesis-based RDMs. The results (Figure S6) revealed that the EEG×ANN representational similarity remained largely unchanged, indicating that ANN representations capture much more additional representational structure not accounted for by the current hypothesized features. This is also consistent with the observation that EEG×HYP partial correlations were themselves small, but EEG×ANN correlations were much greater.

      We also added this statement to the main text:

      (line 446 to 451) “To contextualize how much of the shared variance between EEG and ANN representations is driven by the specific visual object features we tested above, we conducted a partial correlation analysis between EEG RDMs and ANN RDMs controlling for the three hypothesis-based RDMs (Figure S6). The EEG×ANN similarity results remained largely unchanged, suggesting that ANN representations capture much more additional rich representational structure beyond these features. ”

      (3) Why only early and late layers? I can see how it's clearer to present the EEG results. However, the many layers in these networks are an opportunity - we can see how simple/complex linear/non-linear the transformation is over layers in these models. It would be very interesting and informative to see if the correlations do in fact linearly increase from early to later layers, or if the story is a bit more complex. If not in the main text, then at least in the supplement.

      Thank you for the thoughtful suggestion. To address this point, we have computed the EEG correlations with multiple layers in both ResNet and CLIP models (ResNet: ResNet.maxpool, ResNet.layer1, ResNet.layer2, ResNet.layer3, ResNet.layer4, ResNet.avgpool; CLIP:CLIP.visual.avgpool, CLIP.visual.layer1, CLIP.visual.layer2, CLIP.visual.layer3, CLIP.visual.layer4, CLIP.visual.attnpool). The results, now included in Figure S4 and S5, show a consistent trend: early layers exhibit higher similarity to early EEG time points, and deeper layers show increased similarity to later EEG stages. We chose to highlight early and late layers in the main text to simplify interpretation, but now provide the full layerwise profile for completeness.

      (4) Peak latency analysis - Estimating peaks per ppt is presumably noisy, so it seems important to show how reliable this is. One option is to find the bootstrapped mean latencies per subject.

      Thanks for your suggestion. To estimate the robustness of peak latency values, we implemented a bootstrap procedure by resampling the pairwise entries of the EEG RDM with replacement. For each bootstrap sample, we computed a new EEG RDM and recalculated the partial correlation time course with the hypothesis RDMs. We then extracted the peak latency within the predefined significant time window. Repeating this process 1000 times allowed us to get the bootstrapped mean latencies per subject as the more stable peak latency result. Notably, the bootstrapped results showed minimal deviation from the original latency estimates, confirming the robustness of our findings. Accordingly, we updated the Figure 3D and added these in the Materials and Methods section:

      (line 289 to 298) “To assess the stability of peak latency estimates for each subject, we performed a bootstrap procedure across stimulus pairs. At each time point, the EEG RDM was vectorized by extracting the lower triangle (excluding the diagonal), resulting in 19,900 unique pairwise values. For each bootstrap sample, we resampled these 19,900 pairwise entries with replacement to generate a new pseudo-RDM of the same size. We then computed the partial correlation between the EEG pseudo-RDM and a given hypothesis RDM (e.g., real-world size), controlling for other feature RDMs, and obtained a time course of partial correlations. Repeating this procedure 1000 times and extracting the peak latency within the significant time window yielded a distribution of bootstrapped latencies, from which we got the bootstrapped mean latencies per subject.”

      (5) "Due to our calculations being at the object level, if there were more than one of the same objects in an image, we cropped the most complete one to get a more accurate retinal size. " Did EEG experimenters make sure everyone sat the same distance from the screen? and remain the same distance? This would also affect real-world depth measures.

      Yes, the EEG dataset we used (THINGS EEG2; Gifford et al., 2022) was collected under carefully controlled experimental conditions. We have confirmed that all participants were seated at a fixed distance of 0.6 meters from the screen throughout the experiment. We also added this information in the method (line 156 to 157).

      Minor issues/questions - note that these are not raised in the Public Review

      (6) Title - less about rigor/quality of the work but I feel like the title could be improved/extended. The work tells us not only about real object size, but also retinal size and depth. In fact, isn't the most novel part of this the real-world depth aspect? Furthermore, it feels like the current title restricts its relevance and impact... Also doesn't touch on the temporal aspect, or processing stages, which is also very interesting. There may be something better, but simply adding something like"...disentangled features of real-world size, depth, and retinal size over time OR processing stages".

      Thanks for your suggestion! We changed our title – “Human EEG and artificial neural networks reveal disentangled representations and processing timelines of object real-world size and depth in natural images”.

      (7) "Each subject viewed 16740 images of objects on a natural background for 1854 object concepts from the THINGS dataset (Hebart et al., 2019). For the current study, we used the 'test' dataset portion, which includes 16000 trials per subject corresponding to 200 images." Why test images? Worth explaining.

      We chose to use the “test set” of the THINGS EEG2 dataset for the following two reasons:

      (1) Higher trial count per condition: In the test set, each of the 200 object images was presented 80 times per subject, whereas in the training set, each image was shown only 4 times. This much higher trial count per condition in the test set allows for substantially higher signal-tonoise ratio in the EEG data.

      (2) Improved decoding reliability: Our analysis relies on constructing EEG RDMs based on pairwise decoding accuracy using linear SVM classifiers. Reliable decoding estimates require a sufficient number of trials per condition. The test set design is thus better suited to support high-fidelity decoding and robust representational similarity analysis.

      We also added these explainations to our revised manuscript (line 161 to 164).

      (8) "For Real-World Size RDM, we obtained human behavioral real-world size ratings of each object concept from the THINGS+ dataset (Stoinski et al., 2022).... The range of possible size ratings was from 0 to 519 in their online size rating task..." How were the ratings made? What is this scale - do people know the numbers? Was it on a continuous slider?

      We should clarify how the real-world size values were obtained from the THINGS+ dataset.

      In their experiment, participants first rated the size of a single object concept (word shown on the screen) by clicking on a continuous slider of 520 units, which was anchored by nine familiar real-world reference objects (e.g., “grain of sand,” “microwave oven,” “aircraft carrier”) that spanned the full expected size range on a logarithmic scale. Importantly, participants were not shown any numerical values on the scale—they were guided purely by the semantic meaning and relative size of the anchor objects. After the initial response, the scale zoomed in around the selected region (covering 160 units of the 520-point scale) and presented finer anchor points between the previous reference objects. Participants then refined their rating by dragging from the lower to upper end of the typical size range for that object. If the object was standardized in size (e.g., “soccer ball”), a single click sufficed. These size judgments were collected across at least 50 participants per object, and final scores were derived from the central tendency of these responses. Although the final size values numerically range from 0 to 519 (after scaling), this range is not known to participants and is only applied post hoc to construct the size RDMs.

      We added these details in the Materials and Method section:

      (line 219 to 230) “In the THINGS+ dataset, 2010 participants (different from the subjects in THINGS EEG2) did an online size rating task and completed a total of 13024 trials corresponding to 1854 object concepts using a two-step procedure. In their experiment, first, each object was rated on a 520unit continuous slider anchored by familiar reference objects (e.g., “grain of sand,” “microwave oven,” “aircraft carrier”) representing a logarithmic size range. Participants were not shown numerical values but used semantic anchors as guides. In the second step, the scale zoomed in around the selected region to allow for finer-grained refinement of the size judgment. Final size values were derived from aggregated behavioral data and rescaled to a range of 0–519 for consistency across objects, with the actual mean ratings across subjects ranging from 100.03 (‘grain of sand’) to 423.09 (‘subway’).”

      (9) "For Retinal Size RDM, we applied Adobe Photoshop (Adobe Inc., 2019) to crop objects corresponding to object labels from images manually... " Was this by one person? Worth noting, and worth sharing these values per image if not already for other researchers as it could be a valuable resource (and increase citations).

      Yes, all object cropping were performed consistently by one of the authors to ensure uniformity across images. We agree that this dataset could be a useful resource to the community. We have now made the cropped object images publicly available https://github.com/ZitongLu1996/RWsize.

      We also updated the manuscript accordingly to note this (line 236 to 239).

      (10) "Neural RDMs. From the EEG signal, we constructed timepoint-by-timepoint neural RDMs for each subject with decoding accuracy as the dissimilarity index " Decoding accuracy is presumably a similarity index. Maybe 1-accuracy (proportion correct) for dissimilarity?

      Decoding accuracy is a dissimilarity index instead of a similarity index, as higher decoding accuracy between two conditions indicates that they are more distinguishable – i.e., less similar – in the neural response space. This approach aligns with prior work using classification-based representational dissimilarity measures (Grootswagers et al., 2017; Xie et al., 2020), where better decoding implies greater dissimilarity between conditions. Therefore, there is no need to invert the decoding accuracy values (e.g., using 1 - accuracy).

      Grootswagers, T., Wardle, S. G., & Carlson, T. A. (2017). Decoding dynamic brain patterns from evoked responses: A tutorial on multivariate pattern analysis applied to time series neuroimaging data. Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience, 29(4), 677-697.

      Xie, S., Kaiser, D., & Cichy, R. M. (2020). Visual imagery and perception share neural representations in the alpha frequency band. Current Biology, 30(13), 2621-2627.

      (11) Figure 1 caption is very short - Could do with a more complete caption. Unclear what the partial correlations are (what is being partialled out in each case), what are the comparisons "between them" - both in the figure and the caption. Details should at least be in the main text.

      Related to your comment (1). We revised the caption and the corresponding text.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Intro:

      Quek et al., (2023) is referred to as a behavioral study, but it has EEG analyses.

      We corrected this – “…, one recent study (Quek et al., 2023) …”

      The phrase 'high temporal resolution EEG' is a bit strange - isn't all EEG high temporal resolution? Especially when down-sampling to 100 Hz (40 time points/epoch) this does not qualify as particularly high-res.

      We removed this phrasing in our manuscript.

      (2) Methods:

      It would be good to provide more details on the EEG preprocessing. Were the data low-pass filtered, for example?

      We added more details to the manuscript:

      (line 167 to 174) “The EEG data were originally sampled at 1000Hz and online-filtered between 0.1 Hz and 100 Hz during acquisition, with recordings referenced to the Fz electrode. For preprocessing, no additional filtering was applied. Baseline correction was performed by subtracting the mean signal during the 100 ms pre-stimulus interval from each trial and channel separately. We used already preprocessed data from 17 channels with labels beginning with “O” or “P” (O1, Oz, O2, PO7, PO3, POz, PO4, PO8, P7, P5, P3, P1, Pz, P2) ensuring full coverage of posterior regions typically involved in visual object processing. The epoched data were then down-sampled to 100 Hz.”

      It is important to provide more motivation about the specific ANN layers chosen. Were these layers cherry-picked, or did they truly represent a gradual shift over the course of layers?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concern and fully agree that it is important to ensure transparency in how ANN layers were selected. The early and late layers reported in the main text were not cherry-picked to maximize effects, but rather intended to serve as illustrative examples representing the lower and higher ends of the network hierarchy. To address this point directly, we have computed the EEG correlations with multiple layers in both ResNet and CLIP models (ResNet: ResNet.maxpool, ResNet.layer1, ResNet.layer2, ResNet.layer3, ResNet.layer4, ResNet.avgpool; CLIP: CLIP.visual.avgpool, CLIP.visual.layer1, CLIP.visual.layer2, CLIP.visual.layer3, CLIP.visual.layer4, CLIP.visual.attnpool). The results, now included in Figure S4, show a consistent trend: early layers exhibit higher similarity to early EEG time points, and deeper layers show increased similarity to later EEG stages.

      It is important to provide more specific information about the specific ANN layers chosen. 'Second convolutional layer': is this block 2, the ReLu layer, the maxpool layer? What is the 'last visual layer'?

      Apologize for the confusing! We added more details about the layer chosen:

      (line 255 to 257) “The early layer in ResNet refers to ResNet.maxpool layer, and the late layer in ResNet refers to ResNet.avgpool layer. The early layer in CLIP refers to CLIP.visual.avgpool layer, and the late layer in CLIP refers to CLIP.visual.attnpool layer.”

      Again the claim 'novel' is a bit overblown here since the real-world size ratings were also already collected as part of THINGS+, so all data used here is available.

      We removed this phrasing in our manuscript.

      Real-world size ratings ranged 'from 0 - 519'; it seems unlikely this was the actual scale presented to subjects, I assume it was some sort of slider?

      You are correct. We should clarify how the real-world size values were obtained from the THINGS+ dataset.

      In their experiment, participants first rated the size of a single object concept (word shown on the screen) by clicking on a continuous slider of 520 units, which was anchored by nine familiar real-world reference objects (e.g., “grain of sand,” “microwave oven,” “aircraft carrier”) that spanned the full expected size range on a logarithmic scale. Importantly, participants were not shown any numerical values on the scale—they were guided purely by the semantic meaning and relative size of the anchor objects. After the initial response, the scale zoomed in around the selected region (covering 160 units of the 520-point scale) and presented finer anchor points between the previous reference objects. Participants then refined their rating by dragging from the lower to upper end of the typical size range for that object. If the object was standardized in size (e.g., “soccer ball”), a single click sufficed. These size judgments were collected across at least 50 participants per object, and final scores were derived from the central tendency of these responses. Although the final size values numerically range from 0 to 519 (after scaling), this range is not known to participants and is only applied post hoc to construct the size RDMs.

      We added these details in the Materials and Method section:

      (line 219 to 230) “In the THINGS+ dataset, 2010 participants (different from the subjects in THINGS EEG2) did an online size rating task and completed a total of 13024 trials corresponding to 1854 object concepts using a two-step procedure. In their experiment, first, each object was rated on a 520unit continuous slider anchored by familiar reference objects (e.g., “grain of sand,” “microwave oven,” “aircraft carrier”) representing a logarithmic size range. Participants were not shown numerical values but used semantic anchors as guides. In the second step, the scale zoomed in around the selected region to allow for finer-grained refinement of the size judgment. Final size values were derived from aggregated behavioral data and rescaled to a range of 0–519 for consistency across objects, with the actual mean ratings across subjects ranging from 100.03 (‘grain of sand’) to 423.09 (‘subway’).”

      Why is conducting a one-tailed (p<0.05) test valid for EEG-ANN comparisons? Shouldn't this be two-tailed?

      Our use of one-tailed tests was based on the directional hypothesis that representational similarity between EEG and ANN RDMs would be positive, as supported by prior literature showing correspondence between hierarchical neural networks and human brain representations (e.g., Cichy et al., 2016; Kuzovkin et al., 2014). This is consistent with a large number of RSA studies which conduct one-tailed tests (i.e., testing the hypothesis that coefficients were greater than zero: e.g., Kuzovkin et al., 2018; Nili et al., 2014; Hebart et al., 2018; Kaiser et al., 2019; Kaiser et al., 2020; Kaiser et al., 2022). Thus, we specifically tested whether the similarity was significantly greater than zero.

      Cichy, R. M., Khosla, A., Pantazis, D., Torralba, A., & Oliva, A. (2016). Comparison of deep neural networks to spatio-temporal cortical dynamics of human visual object recognition reveals hierarchical correspondence. Scientific reports, 6(1), 27755.

      Kuzovkin, I., Vicente, R., Petton, M., Lachaux, J. P., Baciu, M., Kahane, P., ... & Aru, J. (2018). Activations of deep convolutional neural networks are aligned with gamma band activity of human visual cortex. Communications biology, 1(1), 107.

      Nili, H., Wingfield, C., Walther, A., Su, L., Marslen-Wilson, W., & Kriegeskorte, N. (2014). A toolbox for representational similarity analysis. PLoS computational biology, 10(4), e1003553.

      Hebart, M. N., Bankson, B. B., Harel, A., Baker, C. I., & Cichy, R. M. (2018). The representational dynamics of task and object processing in humans. Elife, 7, e32816.

      Kaiser, D., Turini, J., & Cichy, R. M. (2019). A neural mechanism for contextualizing fragmented inputs during naturalistic vision. elife, 8, e48182.

      Kaiser, D., Inciuraite, G., & Cichy, R. M. (2020). Rapid contextualization of fragmented scene information in the human visual system. Neuroimage, 219, 117045.

      Kaiser, D., Jacobs, A. M., & Cichy, R. M. (2022). Modelling brain representations of abstract concepts. PLoS Computational Biology, 18(2), e1009837.

      Importantly, we note that using a two-tailed test instead would not change the significance of our results. However, we believe the one-tailed test remains more appropriate given our theoretical prediction of positive similarity between ANN and brain representations.

      The sentence on the partial correlation description (page 11 'we calculated partial correlations with one-tailed test against the alternative hypothesis that the partial correlation was positive (greater than zero)') didn't make sense to me; are you referring to the null hypothesis here?

      We revised this sentence to clarify that we tested against the null hypothesis that the partial correlation was less than or equal to zero, using a one-tailed test to assess whether the correlation was significantly greater than zero.

      (line 281 to 284) “…, we calculated partial correlations and used a one-tailed test against the null hypothesis that the partial correlation was less than or equal to zero, testing whether the partial correlation was significantly greater than zero.”

      (3) Results:

      I would prevent the use of the word 'pure', your measurement is one specific operationalization of this concept of real-world size that is not guaranteed to result in unconfounded representations. This is in fact impossible whenever one is using a finite set of natural stimuli and calculating metrics on those - there can always be a factor or metric that was not considered that could explain some of the variance in your measurement. It is overconfident to claim to have achieved some form of Platonic ideal here and to have taken into account all confounds.

      Your point is well taken. Our original use of the term “pure” was intended to reflect statistical control for known confounding factors, but we recognize that this wording may imply a stronger claim than warranted. In response, we revised all relevant language in the manuscript to instead describe the statistically isolated or relatively unconfounded representation of real-world size, clarifying that our findings pertain to the unique contribution of real-world size after accounting for retinal size and real-world depth.

      Figure 2C: It's not clear why peak latencies are computed on the 'full' correlations rather than the partial ones.

      No. The peak latency results in Figure 2C were computed on the partial correlation results – we mentioned this in the figure caption – “Temporal latencies for peak similarity (partial Spearman correlations) between EEG and the 3 types of object information.”

      SEM = SEM across the 10 subjects?

      Yes. We added this in the figure caption.

      Figure 3F y-axis says it's partial correlations but not clear what is partialled out here.

      We identified and corrected a labeling error in both Figure 1 and Figure 3F. Specifically, our EEG × ANN analysis used Spearman correlation, not partial correlation as mistakenly indicated in the original figure label and text. We conducted parital correlations for EEG × HYP and ANN × HYP. But for EEG × ANN, we directly calculated the correlation between EEG RDMs and ANN RDM corresponding to different layers respectively. We corrected these errors: (1) In Figure 1, we removed the erroneous “partial” label from the EEG × ANN path and updated the caption to clearly outline which comparisons used partial correlation. (2) In Figure 3F, we corrected the Y-axis label to “(correlation)”.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Several methodologies should be clarified:

      (a) It's stated that EEG was sampled at 100 Hz. I assume this was downsampled? From what original frequency?

      Yes. We added more detailed about EEG data:

      (line 167 to 174) “The EEG data were originally sampled at 1000Hz and online-filtered between 0.1 Hz and 100 Hz during acquisition, with recordings referenced to the Fz electrode. For preprocessing, no additional filtering was applied. Baseline correction was performed by subtracting the mean signal during the 100 ms pre-stimulus interval from each trial and channel separately. We used already preprocessed data from 17 channels with labels beginning with “O” or “P” (O1, Oz, O2, PO7, PO3, POz, PO4, PO8, P7, P5, P3, P1, Pz, P2) ensuring full coverage of posterior regions typically involved in visual object processing. The epoched data were then down-sampled to 100 Hz.”

      (b) Why was decoding accuracy used as the human RDM method rather than the EEG data themselves?

      Thanks for your question! We would like to address why we used decoding accuracy for EEG RDMs rather than correlation. While fMRI RDMs are typically calculated using 1 minus correlation coefficient, decoding accuracy is more commonly used for EEG RDMs (Grootswager et al., 2017; Xie et al., 2020). The primary reason is that EEG signals are more susceptible to noise than fMRI data. Correlation-based methods are particularly sensitive to noise and may not reliably capture the functional differences between EEG patterns for different conditions. Decoding accuracy, by training classifiers to focus on task-relevant features, can effectively mitigate the impact of noisy signals and capture the representational difference between two conditions.

      Grootswagers, T., Wardle, S. G., & Carlson, T. A. (2017). Decoding dynamic brain patterns from evoked responses: A tutorial on multivariate pattern analysis applied to time series neuroimaging data. Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience, 29(4), 677-697.

      Xie, S., Kaiser, D., & Cichy, R. M. (2020). Visual imagery and perception share neural representations in the alpha frequency band. Current Biology, 30(13), 2621-2627.

      We added this explanation to the manuscript:

      (line 204 to 209) “Since EEG has a low SNR and includes rapid transient artifacts, Pearson correlations computed over very short time windows yield unstable dissimilarity estimates (Kappenman & Luck, 2010; Luck, 2014) and may thus fail to reliably detect differences between images. In contrast, decoding accuracy - by training classifiers to focus on task-relevant features - better mitigates noise and highlights representational differences.”

      (c) How were the specific posterior electrodes selected?

      The 17 posterior electrodes used in our analyses were pre-selected and provided in the THINGS EEG2 dataset, and corresponding to standard occipital and parietal sites based on the 10-10 EEG system. Specifically, we included all 17 electrodes with labels beginning with “O” or “P”, ensuring full coverage of posterior regions typically involved in visual object processing (Page 7).

      (d) The specific layers should be named rather than the vague ("last visual")

      Apologize for the confusing! We added more details about the layer information:

      (line 255 to 257) “The early layer in ResNet refers to ResNet.maxpool layer, and the late layer in ResNet refers to ResNet.avgpool layer. The early layer in CLIP refers to CLIP.visual.avgpool layer, and the late layer in CLIP refers to CLIP.visual.attnpool layer.”

      (line 420 to 434) “As shown in Figure 3F, the early layer representations of both ResNet and CLIP (ResNet.maxpool layer and CLIP.visual.avgpool) showed significant correlations with early EEG time windows (early layer of ResNet: 40-280ms, early layer of CLIP: 50-130ms and 160-260ms), while the late layers (ResNet.avgpool layer and CLIP.visual.attnpool layer) showed correlations extending into later time windows (late layer of ResNet: 80-300ms, late layer of CLIP: 70-300ms). Although there is substantial temporal overlap between early and late model layers, the overall pattern suggests a rough correspondence between model hierarchy and neural processing stages.

      We further extended this analysis across intermediate layers of both ResNet and CLIP models (from early to late, ResNet: ResNet.maxpool, ResNet.layer1, ResNet.layer2, ResNet.layer3, ResNet.layer4, ResNet.avgpool; from early to late, CLIP: CLIP.visual.avgpool, CLIP.visual.layer1, CLIP.visual.layer2, CLIP.visual.layer3, CLIP.visual.layer4, CLIP.visual.attnpool).”

      (e) p19: please change the reporting of t-statistics to standard APA format.

      Thanks for the suggestion. We changed the reporting format accordingly:

      (line 392 to 394) “The representation of real-word size had a significantly later peak latency than that of both retinal size, t(9)=4.30, p=.002, and real-world depth, t(9)=18.58, p<.001. And retinal size representation had a significantly later peak latency than real-world depth, t(9)=3.72, p=.005.”

      (2) "early layer of CLIP: 50-130ms and 160-260ms), while the late layer representations of twoANNs were significantly correlated with later representations in the human brain (late layer of ResNet: 80-300ms, late layer of CLIP: 70-300ms)."

      This seems a little strong, given the large amount of overlap between these models.

      We agree that our original wording may have overstated the distinction between early and late layers, given the substantial temporal overlap in their EEG correlations. We revised this sentence to soften the language to reflect the graded nature of the correspondence, and now describe the pattern as a general trend rather than a strict dissociation:

      (line 420 to 427) “As shown in Figure 3F, the early layer representations of both ResNet and CLIP (ResNet.maxpool layer and CLIP.visual.avgpool) showed significant correlations with early EEG time windows (early layer of ResNet: 40-280ms, early layer of CLIP: 50-130ms and 160-260ms), while the late layers (ResNet.avgpool layer and CLIP.visual.attnpool layer) showed correlations extending into later time windows (late layer of ResNet: 80-300ms, late layer of CLIP: 70-300ms). Although there is substantial temporal overlap between early and late model layers, the overall pattern suggests a rough correspondence between model hierarchy and neural processing stages.”

      (3) "Also, human brain representations showed a higher similarity to the early layer representation of the visual model (ResNet) than to the visual-semantic model (CLIP) at an early stage. "

      This has been previously reported by Greene & Hansen, 2020 J Neuro.

      Thanks! We added this reference.

      (4) "ANN (and Word2Vec) model RDMs"

      Why not just "model RDMs"? Might provide more clarity.

      We chose to use the phrasing “ANN (and Word2Vec) model RDMs” to maintain clarity and avoid ambiguity. In the literature, the term “model RDMs” is sometimes used more broadly to include hypothesis-based feature spaces or conceptual models, and we wanted to clearly distinguish our use of RDMs derived from artificial neural networks and language models. Additionally, explicitly referring to ANN or Word2Vec RDMs improves clarity by specifying the model source of each RDM. We hope this clarification justifies our choice to retain the original phrasing for clarity.