Plural not need string

About This Guide (title capitalization, although I'll note this is inconsistent on other pages of the Tools guide)

eliminate asterisks

materials

Logos and kairos appeal to the logic and timeliness to a topic. These two rhetorical appeals are about how and why something makes sense and fits into the real world.

Pathos are about the emotions and how the author wants or tries to appeal to how the audiences feelings are tied to their topic.

Ethos appeal to the writers beliefs and moral principles.

Rhetoric has different meaning and connotations. Focusing on the effective communication meaning.

All three elements used to create a situation where rhetoric is understandable.

credible/ethical persuasion by the character's action

the emotional side appealing the feelings to the audience

logical explans the facts

It's probably the most useful tool

test hypothes.is inside of a code cell of a jupyter book

test of h. outside of code cell

eLife Assessment

This important study introduces an advance in multi-animal tracking by reframing identity assignment as a self-supervised contrastive representation learning problem. It eliminates the need for segments of video where all animals are simultaneously visible and individually identifiable, and significantly improves tracking speed, accuracy, and robustness with respect to occlusion. This innovation has implications beyond animal tracking, potentially connecting with advances in behavioral analysis and computer vision. The strength of support for these advances is compelling overall, although there were some remaining minor methodological concerns.

Reviewer #1 (Public review):

Summary:

This is a strong paper that presents a clear advance in multi-animal tracking. The authors introduce an updated version of idtracker.ai that reframes identity assignment as a contrastive representation learning problem rather than a classification task requiring global fragments. This change leads to substantial gains in speed and accuracy and removes a known bottleneck in the original system. The benchmarking across species is comprehensive, the results are convincing, and the work significant.

Strengths:

The main strengths are the conceptual shift from classification to representation learning, the clear performance gains, and the improved robustness of the new version. Removing the need for global fragments makes the software much more flexible in practice, and the accuracy and speed improvements are well demonstrated across a diverse set of datasets. The authors' response also provides further support for the method's robustness.

The comparison to other methods is now better documented. The authors clarify which features are used, how failures are defined, how parameters are sampled, and how accuracy is assessed against human-validated data. This helps ensure that the evaluation is fair and that readers can understand the assumptions behind the benchmarks.

The software appears thoughtfully implemented, with GUI updates, integration with pose estimators, and tools such as idmatcher.ai for linking identities across videos. The overall presentation has been improved so that the limitations of the original idtracker.ai, the engineering optimizations, and the new contrastive formulation are more clearly separated. This makes the central ideas and contributions easier to follow.

Weaknesses:

I do not have major remaining criticisms. The authors have addressed my earlier concerns about the clarity and fairness of the comparison with prior methods, the benchmark design, and the memory usage analysis by adding methodological detail and clearly explaining their choices. At this point I view these aspects as transparent features of the experimental design that readers can take into account, rather than weaknesses of the work.

Overall, this is a high-quality paper. The improvements to idtracker.ai are well justified and practically significant, and the authors' response addresses the main concerns about clarity and evaluation. The conceptual contribution, thorough empirical validation, and thoughtful software implementation make this a valuable and impactful contribution to multi-animal tracking.

Reviewer #3 (Public review):

Summary:

The authors propose a new version of idTracker.ai for animal tracking. Specifically, they apply contrastive learning to embed cropped images of animals into a feature space where clusters correspond to individual animal identities. By doing this, they address the requirement for so-called global fragments - segments of the video, in which all entities are visible/detected at the same time. In general, the new method reduces the long tracking times from the previous versions, while also increasing the average accuracy of assigning the identity labels.

Strengths and weaknesses:

The authors have reorganized and rewritten a substantial portion of their manuscript, which has improved the overall clarity and structure to some extent. In particular, omitting the different protocols enhanced readability. However, all technical details are now in appendix which is now referred to more frequently in the manuscript, which was already the case in the initial submission. These frequent references to the appendix - and even to appendices from previous versions - make it difficult to read and fully understand the method and the evaluations in detail. A more self-contained description of the method within the main text would be highly appreciated.

Furthermore, the authors state that they changed their evaluation metric from accuracy to IDF1. However, throughout the manuscript they continue to refer to "accuracy" when evaluating and comparing results. It is unclear which accuracy metric was used or whether the authors are confusing the two metrics. This point needs clarification, as IDF1 is not an "accuracy" measure but rather an F1-score over identity assignments.

The authors compare the speedups of the new version with those of the previous ones by taking the average. However, it appears that there are striking outliers in the tracking performance data (see Supplementary Table 1-4). Therefore, using the average may not be the most appropriate way to compare. The authors should consider using the median or providing more detailed statistics (e.g., boxplots) to better illustrate the distributions.

The authors did not provide any conclusion or discussion section. Including a concise conclusion that summarizes the main findings and their implications would help to convey the message of the manuscript.

The authors report an improvement in the mean accuracy across all benchmarks from 99.49% to 99.82% (with crossings). While this represents a slight improvement, the datasets used for benchmarking seem relatively simple and already largely "solved". Therefore, the impact of this work on the field may be limited. It would be more informative to evaluate the method on more challenging datasets that include frequent occlusions, crossings, or animals with similar appearances. The accuracy reported in the main text is "without crossings" - this seems like incomplete evaluation, especially that tracking objects that do not cross seems a straightforward task. Information is missing why crossings are a problem and are dealt with separately. There are several videos with a much lower tracking accuracy, explaining what the challenges of these videos are and why the method fails in such cases would help to understand the method's usability and weak points.

Author response:

The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

Public Reviews:

Reviewer #1 (Public review):

Summary

This is a strong paper that presents a clear advance in multi-animal tracking. The authors introduce an updated version of idtracker.ai that reframes identity assignment as a contrastive learning problem rather than a classification task requiring global fragments. This change leads to gains in speed and accuracy. The method eliminates a known bottleneck in the original system, and the benchmarking across species is comprehensive and well executed. I think the results are convincing and the work is significant.

Strengths

The main strengths are the conceptual shift from classification to representation learning, the clear performance gains, and the fact that the new version is more robust. Removing the need for global fragments makes the software more flexible in practice, and the accuracy and speed improvements are well demonstrated. The software appears thoughtfully implemented, with GUI updates and integration with pose estimators.

Weaknesses

I don't have any major criticisms, but I have identified a few points that should be addressed to improve the clarity and accuracy of the claims made in the paper.

(1) The title begins with "New idtracker.ai," which may not age well and sounds more promotional than scientific. The strength of the work is the conceptual shift to contrastive representation learning, and it might be more helpful to emphasize that in the title rather than branding it as "new."

We considered using “Contrastive idtracker.ai”. However, we thought that readers could then think that we believe they could use both the old idtracker.ai or this contrastive version. But we want to say that the new version is the one to use as it is better in both accuracy and tracking times. We think “New idtracker.ai” communicates better that this version is the version we recommend.

(2) Several technical points regarding the comparison between TRex (a system evaluated in the paper) and idtracker.ai should be addressed to ensure the evaluation is fair and readers are fully informed.

(2.1) Lines 158-160: The description of TRex as based on "Protocol 2 of idtracker.ai" overlooks several key additions in TRex, such as posture image normalization, tracklet subsampling, and the use of uniqueness feedback during training. These features are not acknowledged, and it's unclear whether TRex was properly configured - particularly regarding posture estimation, which appears to have been omitted but isn't discussed. Without knowing the actual parameters used to make comparisons, it's difficult to dassess how the method was evaluated.

We added the information about the key additions of TRex in the section “The new idtracker.ai uses representation learning”, lines 153-157. Posture estimation in TRex was not explicitly used but neither disabled during the benchmark; we clarified this in the last paragraph of “Benchmark of accuracy and tracking time”, lines 492-495.

(2.2) Lines 162-163: The paper implies that TRex gains speed by avoiding Protocol 3, but in practice, idtracker.ai also typically avoids using Protocol 3 due to its extremely long runtime. This part of the framing feels more like a rhetorical contrast than an informative one.

We removed this, see new lines 153-157.

(2.3) Lines 277-280: The contrastive loss function is written using the label l, but since it refers to a pair of images, it would be clearer and more precise to write it as l_{I,J}. This would help readers unfamiliar with contrastive learning understand the formulation more easily.

We added this change in lines 613-620.

(2.4) Lines 333-334: The manuscript states that TRex can fail to track certain videos, but this may be inaccurate depending on how the authors classify failures. TRex may return low uniqueness scores if training does not converge well, but this isn't equivalent to tracking failure. Moreover, the metric reported by TRex is uniqueness, not accuracy. Equating the two could mislead readers. If the authors did compare outputs to human-validated data, that should be stated more explicitly.

We observed TRex crashing without outputting any trajectories on some occasions (Appendix 1—figure 1), and this is what we labeled as “failure”. These failures happened in the most difficult videos of our benchmark, that’s why we treated them the same way as idtracker.ai going to P3. We clarified this in new lines 464-469.

The accuracy measured in our benchmark is not estimated but it is human-validated (see section Computation of tracking accuracy in Appendix 1). Both softwares report some quality estimators at the end of a tracking (“estimated accuracy” for idtracker.ai and "uniqueness” for TRex) but these were not used in the benchmark.

(2.5) Lines 339-341: The evaluation approach defines a "successful run" and then sums the runtime across all attempts up to that point. If success is defined as simply producing any output, this may not reflect how experienced users actually interact with the software, where parameters are iteratively refined to improve quality.

Yes, our benchmark was designed to be agnostic to the different experiences of the user. Also, our benchmark was designed for users that do not inspect the trajectories to choose parameters again not to leave room for potential subjectivity.

(2.6) Lines 344-346: The simulation process involves sampling tracking parameters 10,000 times and selecting the first "successful" run. If parameter tuning is randomized rather than informed by expert knowledge, this could skew the results in favor of tools that require fewer or simpler adjustments. TRex relies on more tunable behavior, such as longer fragments improving training time, which this approach may not capture.

We precisely used the TRex parameter track_max_speed to elongate fragments for optimal tracking. Rather than randomized parameter tuning, we defined the “valid range” for this parameter so that all values in it would produce a decent fragment structure. We used this procedure to avoid worsening those methods that use more parameters.

(2.7) Line 354 onward: TRex was evaluated using two varying parameters (threshold and track_max_speed), while idtracker.ai used only one (intensity_threshold). With a fixed number of samples, this asymmetry could bias results against TRex. In addition, users typically set these parameters based on domain knowledge rather than random exploration.

idtracker.ai and TRex have several parameters. Some of them have a single correct value (e.g. number of animals) or the default value that the system computes is already good (e.g. minimum blob size). For a second type of parameters, the system finds a value that is in general not as good, so users need to modify them. In general, users find that for this second type of parameter there is a valid interval of possible values, from which they need to choose a single value to run the system. idtracker.ai has intensity_threshold as the only parameter of this second type and TRex has two: threshold and track_max_speed. For these parameters, choosing one value or another within the valid interval can give different tracking results. Therefore, when we model a user that wants to run the system once except if it goes to P3 (idtracker.ai) or except if it crashes (TRex), it is these parameters we sample from within the valid interval to get a different value for each run of the system. We clarify this in lines 452-469 of the section “Benchmark of accuracy and tracking time”.

Note that if we chose to simply run old idtracker.ai (v4 or v5) or TRex a single time, this would benefit the new idtracker.ai (v6). This is because old idtracker.ai can enter the very slow protocol 3 and TRex can fail to track. So running old idtracker.ai or TRex up to 5 times until old idtracker.ai does not use Protocol 3 and TRex does not fail is to make them as good as they can be with respect to the new idtracker.ai. 

(2.8) Figure 2-figure supplement 3: The memory usage comparison lacks detail. It's unclear whether RAM or VRAM was measured, whether shared or compressed memory was included, or how memory was sampled. Since both tools dynamically adjust to system resources, the relevance of this comparison is questionable without more technical detail.

We modified the text in the caption (new Figure 1-figure supplement 2) adding the kind of memory we measured (RAM) and how we measured it. We already have a disclaimer for this plot saying that memory management depends on the machine's available resources. We agree that this is a simple analysis of the usage of computer resources.

(3) While the authors cite several key papers on contrastive learning, they do not use the introduction or discussion to effectively situate their approach within related fields where similar strategies have been widely adopted. For example, contrastive embedding methods form the backbone of modern facial recognition and other image similarity systems, where the goal is to map images into a latent space that separates identities or classes through clustering. This connection would help emphasize the conceptual strength of the approach and align the work with well-established applications. Similarly, there is a growing literature on animal re-identification (ReID), which often involves learning identity-preserving representations across time or appearance changes. Referencing these bodies of work would help readers connect the proposed method with adjacent areas using similar ideas, and show that the authors are aware of and building on this wider context.

We have now added a new section in Appendix 3, “Differences with previous work in contrastive/metric learning” (lines 792-841) to include references to previous work and a description of what we do differently.

(4) Some sections of the Results text (e.g., lines 48-74) read more like extended figure captions than part of the main narrative. They include detailed explanations of figure elements, sorting procedures, and video naming conventions that may be better placed in the actual figure captions or moved to supplementary notes. Streamlining this section in the main text would improve readability and help the central ideas stand out more clear

Thank you for pointing this out. We have rewritten the Results, for example streamlining the old lines 48-74 (new lines 42-48)  by moving the comments about names, files and order of videos to the caption of Figure 1.

Overall, though, this is a high-quality paper. The improvements to idtracker.ai are well justified and practically significant. Addressing the above comments will strengthen the work, particularly by clarifying the evaluation and comparisons.

We thank the reviewer for the detailed suggestions. We believe we have taken all of them into consideration to improve the ms.

Reviewer #2 (Public review):

Summary:

This work introduces a new version of the state-of-the-art idtracker.ai software for tracking multiple unmarked animals. The authors aimed to solve a critical limitation of their previous software, which relied on the existence of "global fragments" (video segments where all animals are simultaneously visible) to train an identification classifier network, in addition to addressing concerns with runtime speed. To do this, the authors have both re-implemented the backend of their software in PyTorch (in addition to numerous other performance optimizations) as well as moving from a supervised classification framework to a self-supervised, contrastive representation learning approach that no longer requires global fragments to function. By defining positive training pairs as different images from the same fragment and negative pairs as images from any two co-existing fragments, the system cleverly takes advantage of partial (but high-confidence) tracklets to learn a powerful representation of animal identity without direct human supervision. Their formulation of contrastive learning is carefully thought out and comprises a series of empirically validated design choices that are both creative and technically sound. This methodological advance is significant and directly leads to the software's major strengths, including exceptional performance improvements in speed and accuracy and a newfound robustness to occlusion (even in severe cases where no global fragments can be detected). Benchmark comparisons show the new software is, on average, 44 times faster (up to 440 times faster on difficult videos) while also achieving higher accuracy across a range of species and group sizes. This new version of idtracker.ai is shown to consistently outperform the closely related TRex software (Walter & Couzin, 2021\), which, together with the engineering innovations and usability enhancements (e.g., outputs convenient for downstream pose estimation), positions this tool as an advancement on the state-of-the-art for multi-animal tracking, especially for collective behavior studies.

Despite these advances, we note a number of weaknesses and limitations that are not well addressed in the present version of this paper:

Weaknesses

(1) The contrastive representation learning formulation. Contrastive representation learning using deep neural networks has long been used for problems in the multi-object tracking domain, popularized through ReID approaches like DML (Yi et al., 2014\) and DeepReID (Li et al., 2014). More recently, contrastive learning has become more popular as an approach for scalable self-supervised representation learning for open-ended vision tasks, as exemplified by approaches like SimCLR (Chen et al., 2020), SimSiam (Chen et al., 2020\), and MAE (He et al., 2021\) and instantiated in foundation models for image embedding like DINOv2 (Oquab et al., 2023). Given their prevalence, it is useful to contrast the formulation of contrastive learning described here relative to these widely adopted approaches (and why this reviewer feels it is appropriate):

(1.1) No rotations or other image augmentations are performed to generate positive examples. These are not necessary with this approach since the pairs are sampled from heuristically tracked fragments (which produces sufficient training data, though see weaknesses discussed below) and the crops are pre-aligned egocentrically (mitigating the need for rotational invariance).

(1.2) There is no projection head in the architecture, like in SimCLR. Since classification/clustering is the only task that the system is intended to solve, the more general "nuisance" image features that this architectural detail normally affords are not necessary here.

(1.3) There is no stop gradient operator like in BYOL (Grill et al., 2020\) or SimSiam. Since the heuristic tracking implicitly produces plenty of negative pairs from the fragments, there is no need to prevent representational collapse due to class asymmetry. Some care is still needed, but the authors address this well through a pair sampling strategy (discussed below).

(1.4) Euclidean distance is used as the distance metric in the loss rather than cosine similarity as in most contrastive learning works. While cosine similarity coupled with L2-normalized unit hypersphere embeddings has proven to be a successful recipe to deal with the curse of dimensionality (with the added benefit of bounded distance limits), the authors address this through a cleverly constructed loss function that essentially allows direct control over the intra- and inter-cluster distance (D\_pos and D\_neg). This is a clever formulation that aligns well with the use of K-means for the downstream assignment step.

No concerns here, just clarifications for readers who dig into the review. Referencing the above literature would enhance the presentation of the paper to align with the broader computer vision literature.

Thank you for this detailed comparison. We have now added a new section in Appendix 3, “Differences with previous work in contrastive/metric learning” (lines 792-841) to include references to previous work and a description of what we do differently, including the points raised by the reviewer.

(2) Network architecture for image feature extraction backbone. As most of the computations that drive up processing time happen in the network backbone, the authors explored a variety of architectures to assess speed, accuracy, and memory requirements. They land on ResNet18 due to its empirically determined performance. While the experiments that support this choice are solid, the rationale behind the architecture selection is somewhat weak. The authors state that: "We tested 23 networks from 8 different families of state-of-the-art convolutional neural network architectures, selected for their compatibility with consumer-grade GPUs and ability to handle small input images (20 × 20 to 100 × 100 pixels) typical in collective animal behavior videos."

(2.1) Most modern architectures have variants that are compatible with consumer-grade GPUs. This is true of, for example, HRNet (Wang et al., 2019), ViT (Dosovitskiy et al., 2020), SwinT (Liu et al., 2021), or ConvNeXt (Liu et al., 2022), all of which report single GPU training and fast runtime speeds through lightweight configuration or subsequent variants, e.g., MobileViT (Mehta et al., 2021). The authors may consider revising that statement or providing additional support for that claim (e.g., empirical experiments) given that these have been reported to outperform ResNet18 across tasks.

Following the recommendation of the reviewer, we tested the architectures SwinT, ConvNeXt and ViT. We found out that none of them outperformed ResNet18 since they all showed a slower learning curve. This would result in higher tracking times. These tests are now included in the section “Network architecture” (lines 550-611).

(2.2) The compatibility of different architectures with small image sizes is configurable. Most convolutional architectures can be readily adapted to work with smaller image sizes, including 20x20 crops. With their default configuration, they lose feature map resolution through repeated pooling and downsampling steps, but this can be readily mitigated by swapping out standard convolutions with dilated convolutions and/or by setting the stride of pooling layers to 1, preserving feature map resolution across blocks. While these are fairly straightforward modifications (and are even compatible with using pretrained weights), an even more trivial approach is to pad and/or resize the crops to the default image size, which is likely to improve accuracy at a possibly minimal memory and runtime cost. These techniques may even improve the performance with the architectures that the authors did test out.

The only two tested architectures that require a minimum image size are AlexNet and DenseNet. DenseNet proved to underperform ResNet18 in the videos where the images are sufficiently large. We have tested AlexNet with padded images to see that it also performs worse than ResNet18 (see Appendix 3—figure 1).

We also tested the initialization of ResNet18 with pre-trained weights from ImageNet (in Appendix 3—figure 2) and it proved to bring no benefit to the training speed (added in lines 591-592).

(2.3) The authors do not report whether the architecture experiments were done with pretrained or randomly initialized weights.

We adapted the text to make it clear that the networks are always randomly initialized (lines 591-592, lines 608-609 and the captions of Appendix 3—figure 1 and 2).

(2.4) The authors do not report some details about their ResNet18 design, specifically whether a global pooling layer is used and whether the output fully connected layer has any activation function. Additionally, they do not report the version of ResNet18 employed here, namely, whether the BatchNorm and ReLU are applied after (v1) or before (v2) the conv layers in the residual path.

We use ResNet18 v1 with no activation function nor bias in its last layer (this has been clarified in the lines 606-608). Also, by design, ResNet has a global average pool right before the last fully connected layer which we did not remove. In response to the reviewer, Resnet18 v2 was tested and its performance is the same as that of v1 (see Appendix 3—figure 1 and lines 590-591).

(3) Pair sampling strategy. The authors devised a clever approach for sampling positive and negative pairs that is tailored to the nature of the formulation. First, since the positive and negative labels are derived from the co-existence of pretracked fragments, selection has to be done at the level of fragments rather than individual images. This would not be the case if one of the newer approaches for contrastive learning were employed, but it serves as a strength here (assuming that fragment generation/first pass heuristic tracking is achievable and reliable in the dataset). Second, a clever weighted sampling scheme assigns sampling weights to the fragments that are designed to balance "exploration and exploitation". They weigh samples both by fragment length and by the loss associated with that fragment to bias towards different and more difficult examples.

(3.1) The formulation described here resembles and uses elements of online hard example mining (Shrivastava et al., 2016), hard negative sampling (Robinson et al., 2020\), and curriculum learning more broadly. The authors may consider referencing this literature (particularly Robinson et al., 2020\) for inspiration and to inform the interpretation of the current empirical results on positive/negative balancing.

Following this recommendation, we added references of hard negative mining in the new section “Differences with previous work in contrastive/metric learning”, lines 792-841. Regarding curriculum learning, even though in spirit it might have parallels with our sampling method in the sense that there is a guided training of the network, we believe the approach is more similar to an exploration-exploitation paradigm.

(4) Speed and accuracy improvements. The authors report considerable improvements in speed and accuracy of the new idTracker (v6) over the original idTracker (v4?) and TRex. It's a bit unclear, however, which of these are attributable to the engineering optimizations (v5?) versus the representation learning formulation.

(4.1) Why is there an improvement in accuracy in idTracker v5 (L77-81)? This is described as a port to PyTorch and improvements largely related to the memory and data loading efficiency. This is particularly notable given that the progression went from 97.52% (v4; original) to 99.58% (v5; engineering enhancements) to 99.92% (v6; representation learning), i.e., most of the new improvement in accuracy owes to the "optimizations" which are not the central emphasis of the systematic evaluations reported in this paper.

V5 was a two year-effort designed to improve time efficiency of v4. It was also a surprise to us that accuracy was higher, but that likely comes from the fact that the substituted code from v4 contained some small bug/s. The improvements in v5 are retained in v6 (contrastive learning) and v6 has higher accuracy and shorter tracking times. The difference in v6 for this extra accuracy and shorter tracking times is contrastive learning.

(4.2) What about the speed improvements? Relative to the original (v4), the authors report average speed-ups of 13.6x in v5 and 44x in v6. Presumably, the drastic speed-up in v6 comes from a lower Protocol 2 failure rate, but v6 is not evaluated in Figure 2 - figure supplement 2.

Idtracker.ai v5 runs an optimized Protocol 2 and, sometimes, the Protocol 3. But v6 doesn’t run either of them. While P2 is still present in v6 as a fallback protocol when contrastive fails, in our v6 benchmark P2 was never needed. So the v6 speedup comes from replacing both P2 and P3 with the contrastive algorithm.

(5) Robustness to occlusion. A major innovation enabled by the contrastive representation learning approach is the ability to tolerate the absence of a global fragment (contiguous frames where all animals are visible) by requiring only co-existing pairs of fragments owing to the paired sampling formulation. While this removes a major limitation of the previous versions of idtracker.ai, its evaluation could be strengthened. The authors describe an ablation experiment where an arc of the arena is masked out to assess the accuracy under artificially difficult conditions. They find that the v6 works robustly up to significant proportions of occlusions, even when doing so eliminates global fragments.

(5.1) The experiment setup needs to be more carefully described.

(5.1.1) What does the masking procedure entail? Are the pixels masked out in the original video or are detections removed after segmentation and first pass tracking is done?

The mask is defined as a region of interest in the software. This means that it is applied at the segmentation step where the video frame is converted to a foreground-background binary image. The region of interest is applied here, converting to background all pixels not inside of it. We clarified this in the newly added section Occlusion tests, lines 240-244.

(5.1.2) What happens at the boundary of the mask? (Partial segmentation masks would throw off the centroids, and doing it after original segmentation does not realistically model the conditions of entering an occlusion area.)

Animals at the boundaries of the mask are partially detected. This can change the location of their detected centroid. That’s why, when computing the ground-truth accuracy for these videos, only the groundtruth centroids that were at minimum 15 pixels further from the mask were considered. We clarified this in the newly added section Occlusion tests, lines 248-251.

(5.1.3) Are fragments still linked for animals that enter and then exit the mask area?

No artificial fragment linking was added in these videos. Detected fragments are linked the usual way. If one animal hides into the mask, the animal disappears so the fragment breaks.  We clarified this in the newly added section Occlusion tests, lines 245-247.

(5.1.4) How is the evaluation done? Is it computed with or without the masked region detections?

The groundtruth used to validate these videos contains the positions of all animals at all times. But only the positions outside the mask at each frame were considered to compute the tracking accuracy. We clarified this in the newly added section Occlusion tests, lines 248-251.

(5.2) The circular masking is perhaps not the most appropriate for the mouse data, which is collected in a rectangular arena.

We wanted to show the same proof of concept in different videos. For that reason, we used to cover the arena parametrized by an angle. In the rectangular arena the circular masking uses an external circle, so it is covering the rectangle parametrized by an angle.

(5.3) The number of co-existing fragments, which seems to be the main determinant of performance that the authors derive from this experiment, should be reported for these experiments. In particular, a "number of co-existing fragments" vs accuracy plot would support the use of the 0.25(N-1) heuristic and would be especially informative for users seeking to optimize experimental and cage design. Additionally, the number of co-existing fragments can be artificially reduced in other ways other than a fixed occlusion, including random dropout, which would disambiguate it from potential allocentric positional confounds (particularly relevant in arenas where egocentric pose is correlated with allocentric position).

We included the requested analysis about the fragment connectivity in Figure 3-figure supplement 1. We agree that there can be additional ways of reducing co-existing fragments, but we think the occlusion tests have the additional value that there are many real experiments similar to this test.

(6) Robustness to imaging conditions. The authors state that "the new idtracker.ai can work well with lower resolutions, blur and video compression, and with inhomogeneous light (Figure 2 - figure supplement 4)." (L156). Despite this claim, there are no speed or accuracy results reported for the artificially corrupted data, only examples of these image manipulations in the supplementary figure.

We added this information in the same image, new Figure 1 - figure supplement 3.

(7) Robustness across longitudinal or multi-session experiments. The authors reference idmatcher.ai as a compatible tool for this use case (matching identities across sessions or long-term monitoring across chunked videos), however, no performance data is presented to support its usage. This is relevant as the innovations described here may interact with this setting. While deep metric learning and contrastive learning for ReID were originally motivated by these types of problems (especially individuals leaving and entering the FOV), it is not clear that the current formulation is ideally suited for this use case. Namely, the design decisions described in point 1 of this review are at times at odds with the idea of learning generalizable representations owing to the feature extractor backbone (less scalable), low-dimensional embedding size (less representational capacity), and Euclidean distance metric without hypersphere embedding (possible sensitivity to drift). It's possible that data to support point 6 can mitigate these concerns through empirical results on variations in illumination, but a stronger experiment would be to artificially split up a longer video into shorter segments and evaluate how generalizable and stable the representations learned in one segment are across contiguous ("longitudinal") or discontiguous ("multi-session") segments.

We have now added a test to prove the reliability of idmatcher.ai in v6. In this test, 14 videos are taken from the benchmark and split in two non-overlapping parts (with a 200 frames gap in between). idmatcher.ai is run between the two parts presenting a 100% accuracy identity matching across all of them (see section “Validity of idmatcher.ai in the new idtracker.ai”, lines 969-1008).

We thank the reviewer for the detailed suggestions. We believe we have taken all of them into consideration to improve the ms.

Reviewer #3 (Public review):

Summary

The authors propose a new version of idTracker.ai for animal tracking. Specifically, they apply contrastive learning to embed cropped images of animals into a feature space where clusters correspond to individual animal identities.

Strengths

By doing this, the new software alleviates the requirement for so-called global fragments - segments of the video, in which all entities are visible/detected at the same time - which was necessary in the previous version of the method. In general, the new method reduces the tracking time compared to the previous versions, while also increasing the average accuracy of assigning the identity labels.

Weaknesses

The general impression of the paper is that, in its current form, it is difficult to disentangle the old from the new method and understand the method in detail. The manuscript would benefit from a major reorganization and rewriting of its parts. There are also certain concerns about the accuracy metric and reducing the computational time.

We have made the following modifications in the presentation:

(1) We have added section tiles to the main text so it is clearer what tracking system we are referring to. For example, we now have sections “Limitation of the original idtracker.ai”, “Optimizing idtracker.ai without changes in the learning method” and “The new idtracker.ai uses representation learning”.

(2) We have completely rewritten all the text of the ms until we start with contrastive learning. Old L20-89 is now L20-L66, much shorter and easier to read.

(3) We have rewritten the first 3 paragraphs in the section “The new idtracker.ai uses representation learning” (lines 68-92).

(4) We now expanded Appendix 3 to discuss the details of our approach  (lines 539-897).  It discusses in detail the steps of the algorithm, the network architecture, the loss function, the sampling strategy, the clustering and identity assignment, and the stopping criteria in training

(5) To cite previous work in detail and explain what we do differently, we have now added in Appendix 3 the new section “Differences with previous work in contrastive/metric learning” (lines 792-841).

Regarding accuracy metrics, we have replaced our accuracy metric with the standard metric IDF1. IDF1 is the standard metric that is applied to systems in which the goal is to maintain consistent identities across time. See also the section in Appendix 1 "Computation of tracking accuracy” (lines 414-436) explaining IDF1 and why this is an appropriate metric for our goal.

Using IDF1 we obtain slightly higher accuracies for the idtracker.ai systems. This is the comparison of mean accuracy over all our benchmark for our previous accuracy score and the new one for the full trajectories:

v4:   97.42% -> 98.24%

v5:   99.41% -> 99.49%

v6:   99.74% -> 99.82%

trex: 97.89% -> 97.89%

We thank the reviewer for the suggestions about presentation and about the use of more standard metrics.

Recommendations for the authors:

Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

(1) Figure 1a: A graphical legend inset would make it more readable since there are multiple colors, line styles, and connecting lines to parse out.

Following this recommendation, we added a graphical legend in the old Figure 1 (new Figure 2).

(2) L46: "have images" → "has images".

We applied this correction. Line 35.

(3) L52: "videos start with a letter for the species (z,**f**,m)", but "d" is used for fly videos.

We applied this correction in the caption of Figure 1.

(4) L62: "with Protocol 3 a two-step process" → "with Protocol 3 being a two-step process".

We rewrote this paragraph without mentioning Protocol 3, lines 37-41.

(5) L82-89: This is the main statement of the problems that are being addressed here (speed and relaxing the need for global fragments). This could be moved up, emphasized, and made clearer without the long preamble and results on the engineering optimizations in v5. This lack of linearity in the narrative is also evident in the fact that after Figure 1a is cited, inline citations skip to Figure 2 before returning to Figure 1 once the contrastive learning is introduced.

We have rewritten all the text until the contrastive learning, (old lines 20-89 are now lines 20-66). The text is shorter, more linear and easier to read.

(6) L114: "pairs until the distance D_{pos}" → "pairs until the distance approximates D_{pos}".

We rewrote as “ pairs until the distance 𝐷pos (or 𝐷neg) is reached” in line 107.

(7) L570: Missing a right parenthesis in the equation.

We no longer have this equation in the ms.

(8) L705: "In order to identify fragments we, not only need" → "In order to identify fragments, we not only need".

We applied this correction, Line 775.

(9) L819: "probably distribution" → "probability distribution".

We applied this correction, Line 776.

(10) L833: "produced the best decrease the time required" → "produced the best decrease of the time required".

We applied this correction, Line 746.

Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

(1) We recommend rewriting and restructuring the manuscript. The paper includes a detailed explanation of the previous approaches (idTracker and idTracker.ai) and their limitations. In contrast, the description of the proposed method is short and unstructured, which makes it difficult to distinguish between the old and new methods as well as to understand the proposed method in general. Here are a few examples illustrating the problem. 

(1.1) Only in line 90 do the authors start to describe the work done in this manuscript. The previous 3 pages list limitations of the original method.

We have now divided the main text into sections, so it is clearer what is the previous method (“Limitation of the original idtracker.ai”, lines 28-51), the new optimization we did of this method (“Optimizing idtracker.ai without changes in the learning method”, lines 52-66) and the new contrastive approach that also includes the optimizations (“The new idtracker.ai uses representation learning”, lines 66-164). Also, the new text has now been streamlined until the contrastive section, following your suggestion. You can see that in the new writing the three sections are 25 , 15 and 99 lines. The more detailed section is the new system, the other two are needed as reference, to describe which problem we are solving and the extra new optimizations.  

(1.2) The new method does not have a distinct name, and it is hard to follow which idtracker.ai is a specific part of the text referring to. Not naming the new method makes it difficult to understand.

We use the name new idtracker.ai (v6) so it becomes the current default version. v5 is now obsolete, as well as v4. And from the point of view of the end user, no new name is needed since v6 is just an evolution of the same software they have been using. Also, we added sections in the main text to clarify the ideas in there and indicate the version of idtracker.ai we are referring to.

(1.3) There are "Protocol 2" and "Protocol 3" mixed with various versions of the software scattered throughout the text, which makes it hard to follow. There should be some systematic naming of approaches and a listing of results introduced.

Following this recommendation we no longer talk about the specific protocols of the old version of idtracker.ai in the main text. We rewritten the explanation of these versions in a more clear and straightforward way, lines 29-36.

(2) To this end, the authors leave some important concepts either underexplained or only referenced indirectly via prior work. For example, the explanation of how the fragments are created (line 15) is only explained by the "video structure" and the algorithm that is responsible for resolving the identities during crossings is not detailed (see lines 46-47, 149-150). Including summaries of these elements would improve the paper's clarity and accessibility.

We listed the specific sections from our previous publication where the reader can find information about the entire tracking pipeline (lines 539-549). This way, we keep the ms clear and focused on the new identification algorithm while indicating where to find such information.

(3) Accuracy metrics are not clear. In line 319, the authors define it as based on "proportion of errors in the trajectory". This proportion is not explained. How is the error calculated if a trajectory is lost or there are identity swaps? Multi-object tracking has a range of accuracy metrics that account for such events but none of those are used by the authors. Estimating metrics that are common for MOT literature, for example, IDF1, MOTA, and MOTP, would allow for better method performance understanding and comparison.

In the new ms, we replaced our accuracy metric with the standard metric IDF1. IDF1 is the standard metric that is applied to systems in which the goal is to maintain consistent identities across time. See also the section in Appendix 1 "Computation of tracking accuracy” explaining why IDF1 and not MOTA or MOTP is the adequate metric for a system that wants to give correct tracking by identification in time. See lines 416-436.

Using IDF1 we obtain slightly higher accuracies for the idtracker.ai systems. This is the comparison of mean accuracy four our previous accuracy and the new one for the full trajectories:

v4:   97.42% -> 98.24%

v5:   99.41% -> 99.49%

v6:   99.74% -> 99.82%

trex: 97.89% -> 97.89%

(4) Additionally, the authors distinguish between tracking with and without crossings, but do not provide statistics on the frequency of crossings per video. It is also unclear how the crossings are considered for the final output. Including information such as the frame rate of the videos would help to better understand the temporal resolution and the differences between consecutive frames of the videos.

We added this information in the Appendix 1 “Benchmark of accuracy and tracking time”, lines 445-451. The framerate in our benchmark videos goes from 25 to 60 fps (average of 37 fps). On average 2.6% of the blobs are crossings (1.1% for zebrafish 0.7% for drosophila 9.4% for mice).

(5) In the description of the dataset used for evaluation (lines 349-365), the authors describe the random sampling of parameter values for each tracking run. However, it is unclear whether the same values were used across methods. Without this clarification, comparisons between the proposed method, older versions, and TRex might be biased due to lucky parameter combinations. In addition, the ranges from which the values were randomly sampled were also not described.

Only one parameter is shared between idtracker.ai and TRex: intensity_threshold (in idtracker.ai) and threshold (in TRex). Both are conceptually equivalent but differ in their numerical values since they affect different algorithms. V4, v5, and TRex each required the same process of independent expert visual inspection of the segmentation to select the valid value range. Since versions 5 and 6 use exactly the same segmentation algorithm, they share the same parameter ranges.

All the ranges of valid values used in our benchmark are public here https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1tFxdtFUudl02ICS99vYKrZLeF28TiYpZ as stated in the section “Data availability”, lines 227-228.

(6) Lines 122-123, Figure 1c. "batches" - is an imprecise metric of training time as there is no information about the batch size.

We clarified the Figure caption, new Figure 2c.

(7) Line 145 - "we run some steps... For example..." leaves the method description somewhat unclear. It would help if you could provide more details about how the assignments are carried out and which metrics are being used.

Following this recommendation, we listed the specific sections from our previous publication where the reader can find information about the entire tracking pipeline (lines 539-549). This way, we keep the ms clear and focused on the new identification algorithm while indicating where to find such information.

(8) Figure 3. How is tracking accuracy assessed with occlusions? Are the individuals correctly recognized when they reappear from the occluded area?

The groundtruth for this video contains the positions of all animals at all times. Only the groundtruth points inside the region of interest are taken into account when computing the accuracy. When the tracking reaches high accuracy, it means that animals are successfully relabeled every time they enter the non-masked region. Note that this software works all the time by identification of animals, so crossings and occlusion are treated the same way. What is new here is that the occlusions are so large that there are no global fragments. We clarified this in the new section “Occlusion tests” in Methods, lines 239-251.

(9) Lines 185-187 this part of the sentence is not clear.

We rewrote this part in a clearer way, lines 180-182.

(10) The authors also highlight the improved runtime performance. However, they do not provide a detailed breakdown of the time spent on each component of the tracking/training pipeline. A timing breakdown would help to compare the training duration with the other components. For example, the calculation of the Silhouette Score alone can be time-consuming and could be a bottleneck in the training process. Including this information would provide a clearer picture of the overall efficiency of the method.

We measured that the training of ResNet takes on average in our benchmark 47% of the tracking time (we added this information line 551 section “Network Architecture”). In this training stage the bottleneck becomes the network forward and backward pass, limited by the GPU performance. All other processes happening during training have been deeply optimized and parallelized when needed so their contribution to the training time is minimal. Apart from the training, we also measured 24.4% of the total tracking time spent in reading and segmenting the video files and 11.1% in processing the identification images and detecting crossings.

(11) An important part of the computational cost is related to model training. It would be interesting to test whether a model trained on one video of a specific animal type (e.g., zebrafish_5) generalizes to another video of the same type (e.g., zebrafish_7). This would assess the model's generalizability across different videos of the same species and spare a lot of compute. Alternatively, instead of training a model from scratch for each video, the authors could also consider training a base model on a superset of images from different videos and then fine-tuning it with a lower learning rate for each specific video. This could potentially save time and resources while still achieving good performance.

Already before v6, there was the possibility for the user to start training the identification network by copying the final weights from another tracking session. This knowledge transfer feature is still present in v6 and it still decreases the training times significatively. This information has been added in Appendix 4, lines 906-909.

We have already begun working on the interesting idea of a general base model but it brings some complex challenges. It could be a very useful new feature for future idtracker.ai releases.

We thank the reviewer for the many suggestions. We have implemented all of them.

A discussion of Wolff's Law seems appropriate here, especially as we earlier referenced changes in bone density due to force placed upon them.

A note here breaking down the roots of the word may help students remember that this occurs "within cartilage."

Maybe also briefly mention role in blood calcium regulation to plant that seed for later?

Do we want to mention the mechanical advantage provided by these bones here?

We might want to say upper and lower extremity rather than arms and legs here to avoid later confusion when we discuss muscle action (thigh vs leg, for example).

Il faudrait être constant: ou bien on utilise «délibération morale» ou bien on utilise «délibération éthique».

libres

fort probable que les recherches

Cela est affirmé, mais pas expliqué. Pourquoi ce risque surgirait-il particulièrement d'une rationalisation des émotions? Quel est le lien entre les deux?

L'article fait-il vraiment cela? S'il s'agit de poser «un nouveau regard», cela implique que soit présenté un «ancien» ou «plus habituel» regard sur la considération que porte le pragmatisme de Dewey sur les émotions. Ou du moins, on devrait voir ce que suggère de nouveau cet article sur cette question. Il semble plutôt que l'article fait ressortir ou cherche à reconstruire ce qu'avance Dewey sur les émotions. C'est tout aussi valable, mais différent.

On voit mal en quoi ce serait le cas, puisque le passage de Bidet mentionne une triple composante de l'appréciation immédiate (et donc une imbrication) de l'émotionnel, de l'intellectuel et de la motricité (volonté). D'ailleurs, la suite du présent article réitère clairement que l'appréciation immédiate n'est pas qu'affaire d'émotion, qu'il y a une part d'activité cognitive dans celle-ci, sous la forme d'une intrication de l'un à l'autre. On voit mal ce qui justifie la critique de conception dualiste où s'opposeraient l'émotion et la cognition.

Pourquoi un «2»?

À quoi cela réfère-t-il? s'il s'agit de la mise à distance des émotions, il faut mettre au pluriel: «les mettre à distance».

S'agit-il d'une citation? On le croirait, mais il n'y a aucune référence.

On parle ici d'un type spécifique d'émotion, qui plus est d'une émotion «morale». C'est intéressant, mais on ne voit pas bien d'où surgit - et en raison de quoi - cette référence à cette émotion morale.

Cette façon de s'en tenir à inscrire seulement la référence à l'ouvrage plutôt que les pages est un peu désagréable: quand il est fait référence à une idée précise, on s'attendrait à plus d'informations sur la source où est exprimée l'idée.

Une valuation peut-elle avoir lieu sans émotion? N'est-ce pas une position contraire à ce que dit Dewey de la valuation? Cette phrase est par ailleurs un peu énigmatique. Peut-être parce qu'elle est trop synthétique? On voit mal, par exemple, le lien entre l'égoïsme et la conformité....

dispense

permettent

indiquer la page d'où est extrait ce passage.

ajouter une virgule

il faudrait ajouter la page car on réfère à un passage bien précis.

C'est très affirmatif. Il serait plus prudent d'écrire «selon la théorie de Barrett» ou «les travaux de Barrett avancent plutôt que»...

Où débute cette citation?

ajouter une référence

remplacer la virgule par «qui»

Il serait approprié d'identifier ces articles.

à quoi renvoie ce «1»?

jouent

fournit

Cette phrase est ambigüe. L'«intégration des émotions en éthique» renvoie à la théorie: on voit mal alors en quoi une précision théorique serait nécessaire au développement - concret, matériel - de la compétence éthique (chez les personnes). À moins qu'on parle plutôt de la théorie ou de la compréhension de la compétence éthique. Il faudrait lever cette ambiguïté.

Cette formulation («elle reprend») laisse entendre qu'elle serait ultérieure à la théorie de Petit, ce qui n'est évidemment pas le cas. À reformuler.

enlever la virgule

mal exprimé. Il faut enlever ce «qu'»

Un peu étrange de parler d'un «groupe de recherche québécois»... sans le nommer ou en nommer les chercheurs. Il serait de toute manière davantage approprié de simplement parler de «chercheurs».

Enlever ce «de»

Did not converge we should try increase iteration

Name it

If you’re curious how my Review2XML tool works in practice, visit review2xml.com.

Change to Founders are happy to pay for value – they just don’t want to pay forever for the same outcome.

Increase CTR (click-through rate)

Those savings also help:

Change to

For smaller brands, it absolutely does – because it’s all about EBITDA: earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortisation.

Don't link "small tool".

Write: So I built Review2XML as a small tool that does one thing really well:

Change from: I’m not a big SaaS company. To: I’m not a big SaaS company (that's software as a service if you're not familiar with the acronym).

Change to:

• A clean, Google-compliant product reviews feed
• Something that works with their existing review app, no migration needed; and
• A fair price

And doesn't work because the clause is "They just needed:" Which translates to: They just needed: ... And a fair price.

A clean, Google-compliant product reviews XML feed

No quote. Just Most stores didn’t need a full Google Reviews app.

Instead of "here", write your sentence with a keywords in mind and link the keyword back to the post.

But there’s a catch

realised

Memphis decree

The decree in three languages: 1. Greek: the language of the ptolemaic dynasty 2. Egyptian hieroglyphics for the priests and 3. Demotic for the common people

See below:

Why does Ptolemy figure on the inscription?

<div style="background-color: bisque; color: black; font-weight: bold; padding: 12px;"> Ptolemy V really needed something to court the priests because the ptolemaic dynasty were not Egyptians at all. They're actually Greeks and for generations these foreign Kings had kept power over Egypt by engaging with the priests. This inscription is the Memphis decree exempting the Priestly Class from taxes and from having to pay homage to him, a gesture the teenage King hoped will steady his throne and prevent another uprising. </div>

!!!!!

eLife Assessment

This important study provides a detailed analysis of the transcriptional landscape of the mouse hippocampus in the context of various physiological states. The main conclusions have solid support: that most transcriptional targets are generally stable, with notable exceptions in the dentate gyrus and with regard to circadian changes. There are some weaknesses and it would improve the manuscript to address them.

Reviewer #1 (Public review):

Olmstead et al. present a single-cell nuclear sequencing dataset that interrogates how hippocampal gene expression changes in response to distinct physiological stimuli and across circadian time. The authors perform single-nucleus RNA sequencing on mouse hippocampal tissue after (1) kainic acid-induced seizure, (2) exposure to an enriched environment, and (3) at multiple circadian phases.

The dataset is rigorously collected, and a major strength is the use of the previously established ABC taxonomy from Yao et al. (2023) to define cell types. The authors further show that this taxonomy is largely independent of activity-driven transcriptional programs. Using these annotations, they examine activity-regulated gene expression across neuronal and glial subclasses. They identify ZT12, corresponding to the transition from the light to the dark period, as transcriptionally distinct from other circadian time points, and show that this pattern is conserved across many cell types. Finally, they test how circadian phase influences activity-dependent gene expression by exposing mice to an enriched environment at different times of day, and report no significant interaction between circadian phase and enriched environment exposure.

A crucial consideration for users of this dataset is the potential confounding effect between circadian phase and locomotor activity. This is particularly relevant because dentate gyrus activity is strongly modulated by locomotion. The authors acknowledge this issue in the Discussion and provide useful guidance for how to interpret their findings, considering this confound.

Taken together, this dataset represents a useful resource for the neuroscience community, particularly for investigators interested in how novel experience and circadian phase shape activity-related and immediate early gene expression in the hippocampus

Reviewer #2 (Public review):

This manuscript presents the ACT-DEPP dataset, a comprehensive single-nucleus RNA-sequencing atlas of the mouse hippocampus that examines how activity-dependent and circadian transcriptional programs intersect. The dataset spans multiple experimental conditions and circadian time points, clarifying how cell-type identity relates to transcriptional state. In particular, the authors compare stimulus-evoked activity programs (environmental enrichment and kainate-induced seizures) with circadian phase-dependent transcriptional oscillations. They also identify a transcriptional inflection point near ZT12 and argue that immediate early gene (IEG) induction is broadly maintained across circadian phases, with minimal ZT-dependent modulation.

Strengths:

The study is ambitious in scope and data volume, and outlines the data-processing and atlas-registration workflows. The side-by-side treatment of stimulus paradigms and ZT sampling provides a coherent framework for parsing state (activity) from phase (circadian) across diverse neuronal and non-neuronal classes. Several findings - especially the ZT12 "inflection" and the differential sensitivity of pathways across subclasses - are intriguing.

Weaknesses:

(1) The authors acknowledge, but do not adequately address, the fundamental confounding factor between circadian phase and spontaneous locomotor activity. The assertion that these represent "orthogonal regulatory axes," based on largely non-overlapping DEGs, may be overstated. The absence of behavioral monitoring during baseline is a major limitation.

(2) The statement "Thus, novel experiences and seizures trigger categorically distinct transcriptional responses-with respect to both magnitude and specific genes-in these hippocampal subregions" is overstated, given the data presented. Figure 2A-B shows that approximately one-third of EE-induced DEGs at 30 minutes overlap with KA DEGs, and this overlap increases substantially at 6 hours in CA1 (where EE and KA responses become "fully shared"). This suggests the responses are quantitatively different rather than "categorically distinct."

(3) In Figure 4B, "active cells" are defined as those with {greater than or equal to}3 of 15 IEGs above the 90th percentile, with thresholds apparently calibrated in CA1. Because baseline expression distributions differ across subclasses, this rule can bias activation rates across cell types.

(4) Few genes show significant ZT × stimulus (EE or seizure) interactions, concentrated in neuronal populations. Given unequal nucleus counts and biological replicates across subclasses, small effects may be underpowered.

(5) In Figure 6 I, J, the relationship between the highlighted pathways/functions and circadian phase is not yet explicit.

(6) Line 276-280: The enrichment of lncRNAs at ZT12 in CA1 is intriguing but underdeveloped. What are these lncRNAs, and what might they regulate?

Overall, most descriptive conclusions are supported (e.g., broad phase-robustness of classical IEGs; an inflection near ZT12). Claims about the separability/orthogonality of activity vs circadian programs, and about categorical distinctions between EE and KA responses, would benefit from more conservative wording or additional analyses to rule out behavioral and power-related alternatives.

en minuscule : "du sud de l'Espagne"

en minuscule : "des pays du nord du continent"

phrase incomplète : "ce qui nous intéresse dans cette pensée ce sont les modalités [...]"

La référence est à compléter : Le titre de l'article est : "Manifestes médiologiques. Régis Debray, Editions Gallimard, 1994"

Do we want to add a section on dermatitis here?

Testing testing!

Maybe a reference here to the functional purpose of dermal papillae in improving grip.

Do we want to split the hair that hypodermis is technically not part of the skin, but supports the skin and attaches it to the muscle beneath?

Evaporation of sweat is the primary means of removing heat from the body, not sweating itself. After evaporation, convection removes the warm moist air from the skin, aiding in the heat removal.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6773238/#CIT0200

German gov assessment of password managers: only 1Password, Keepass2 Android, KeePassXC get full marks.

eLife Assessment

This valuable study uses fiber photometry, implantable lenses, and optogenetics, to show that a subset of subthalamic nucleus neurons are active during movement, and that active but not passive avoidance depends in part on STN projections to substantia nigra. The strength of the evidence for these claims is solid, whereas evidence supporting the claims that STN is involved in cautious responding is unclear as presented. This paper may be of interest to basic and applied behavioural neuroscientists working on movement or avoidance.

Reviewer #1 (Public review):

Summary:

The manuscript presents a robust set of experiments that provide new insights into the role of STN neurons during active and passive avoidance tasks. These forms of avoidance have received comparatively less attention in the literature than the more extensively studied escape or freezing responses, despite being extremely relevant to human behaviour and more strongly influenced by cognitive control.

Strengths:

Understanding the neural infrastructure supporting avoidance behaviour would be a fundamental milestone in neuroscience. The authors employ sophisticated methods to delineate the role of STN neurons during avoidance behaviours. The work is thorough and the evidence presented is compelling. Experiments are carefully constructed, well-controlled, and the statistical analyses are appropriate.

Weaknesses:

One possible remaining conceptual concern that might require future work is determining whether STN primarily mediates higher-level cognitive avoidance or if its activation primarily modulates motor tone.

Reviewer #2 (Public review):

Summary:

Zhou, Sajid et al. present a study investigating the STN involvement in signaled movement. They use fiber photometry, implantable lenses, and optogenetics during active avoidance experiments to evaluate this. The data are useful for the scientific community and the overall evidence for their claims is solid, but many aspects of the findings are confusing. The authors present a huge collection of data, it is somewhat difficult to extract the key information and the meaningful implications resulting from these data.

Strengths:

The study is comprehensive in using many techniques and many stimulation powers and frequencies and configurations.

Weaknesses - re-review:

All previous weaknesses have been addressed. The authors should explain how inhibition of the STN impairing active avoidance is consistent with the STN encoding cautious action. If 'caution' is related to avoid latency, why does STN lesion or inhibition increase avoid latency, and therefore increase caution? Wouldn't the opposite be more consistent with the statement that the STN 'encodes cautious action'?

Reviewer #3 (Public review):

Summary:

The authors use calcium recordings from STN to measure STN activity during spontaneous movement and in a multi-stage avoidance paradigm. They also use optogenetic inhibition and lesion approaches to test the role of STN during the avoidance paradigm. The paper reports a large amount of data and makes many claims, some seem well supported to this Reviewer, others not so much.

Strengths:

Well-supported claims include data showing that during spontaneous movements, especially contraversive ones, STN calcium activity is increased using bulk photometry measurements. Single-cell measures back this claim but also show that it is only a minority of STN cells that respond strongly, with most showing no response during movement, and a similar number showing smaller inhibitions during movement.

Photometry data during cued active avoidance procedures show that STN calcium activity sharply increases in response to auditory cues, and during cued movements to avoid a footshock. Optogenetic and lesion experiments are consistent with an important role for STN in generating cue-evoked avoidance. And a strength of these results is that multiple approaches were used.

Original Weaknesses:

I found the experimental design and presentation convoluted and some of the results over-interpreted.

As presented, I don't understand this idea that delayed movement is necessarily indicative of cautious movements. Is the distribution of responses multi-modal in a way that might support this idea; or do the authors simply take a normal distribution and assert that the slower responses represent 'caution'? Even if responses are multi-modal and clearly distinguished by 'type', why should readers think this that delayed responses imply cautious responding instead of say: habituation or sensitization to cue/shock, variability in attention, motivation, or stress; or merely uncertainty which seems plausible given what I understand of the task design where the same mice are repeatedly tested in changing conditions. This relates to a major claim (i.e., in the title).

Related to the last, I'm struggling to understand the rationale for dividing cells into 'types' based the their physiological responses in some experiments.

In several figures the number of subjects used was not described. This is necessary. Also necessary is some assessment of the variability across subjects. The only measure of error shown in many figures relates trial-to-trial or event variability, which is minimal because in many cases it appears that hundreds of trials may have been averaged per animal, but this doesn't provide a strong view of biological variability (i.e., are results consistent across animals?).

It is not clear if or how spread of expression outside of target STN was evaluated, and if or how or how many mice were excluded due to spread or fiber placements. Inadequate histological validation is presented and neighboring regions that would be difficult to completely avoid, such as paraSTN may be contributing to some of the effects.

Raw example traces are not provided.

The timeline of the spontaneous movement and avoidance sessions were not clear, nor the number of events or sessions per animal and how this was set. It is not clear if there was pre-training or habituation, if many or variable sessions were combined per animal, or what the time gaps between sessions was, or if or how any of these parameters might influence interpretation of the results.

Comments on revised version:

The authors removed the optogenetic stimulation experiments, but then also added a lot of new analyses. Overall the scope of their conclusions are essentially unchanged.

Part of the eLife model is to leave it to the authors discretion how they choose to present their work. But my overall view of it is unchanged. There are elements that I found clear, well executed, and compelling. But other elements that I found difficult to understand and where I could not follow or concur with their conclusions.

Author response:

The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

Public Reviews:

Reviewer #2 (Public review):

(1) Vglut2 isn't a very selective promoter for the STN. Did the authors verify every injection across brain slices to ensure the para-subthalamic nucleus, thalamus, lateral hypothalamus, and other Vglut2-positive structures were never infected?

The STN is anatomically well-confined, with its borders and the overlying zona incerta (composed of GABAergic neurons) providing protection against off-target expression in most neighboring forebrain regions. All viral injections were histologically verified and did not into extend into thalamic or hypothalamic areas. As described in the Methods, we employed an app we developed (Brain Atlas Analyzer, available on OriginLab) that aligns serial histological sections with the Allen Brain Atlas to precisely assess viral spread and confirm targeting accuracy. The experiments included in the revised manuscript now focus on optogenetic inhibition and irreversible lesion approaches—three complementary methods that consistently targeted the STN and yielded similar behavioral effects.

(2) The authors say in the methods that the high vs low power laser activation for optogenetic experiments was defined by the behavioral output. This is misleading, and the high vs low power should be objectively stated and the behavioral results divided according to the power used, not according to the behavioral outcome.

Optogenetic excitation is no longer part of the study.

(3) In the fiber photometry experiments exposing mice to the range of tones, it is impossible to separate the STN response to the tone from the STN response to the movement evoked by the tone. The authors should expose the mouse to the tones in a condition that prevents movement, such as anesthetized or restrained, to separate out the two components.

The new mixed-effects modeling approach clearly differentiates sensory (auditory) from motor contributions during tone-evoked STN activation. In prior work (see Hormigo et al, 2023, eLife), we explored experimental methods such as head restraint or anesthesia to reduce movement, but we concluded that these approaches are unsuitable for addressing this question. Mice exhibit substantial residual movement even when head-fixed, and anesthesia profoundly alters neural excitability and behavioral state, introducing major confounds. To fully eliminate movement would require paralysis and artificial ventilation, which would again disrupt physiological network dynamics and raise ethical concerns. Therefore, the current modeling approach—incorporating window-specific covariates for movement—is the most appropriate and rigorous way to dissociate tone-evoked sensory activity from motor activity in behaving animals.

(4) The claim 'STN activation is ideally suited to drive active avoids' needs more explanation. This claim comes after the fiber photometry experiments during active avoidance tasks, so there has been no causality established yet.

Text adjusted. 

(5) The statistical comparisons in Figure 7E need some justification and/or clarification. The 9 neuron types are originally categorized based on their response during avoids, then statistics are run showing that they respond differently during avoids. It is no surprise that they would have significantly different responses, since that is how they were classified in the first place. The authors must explain this further and show that this is not a case of circular reasoning.

Statistically verifying the clustering is useful to ensure that the selected number of clusters reflects distinct classes. It is also necessary when different measurements are used to classify (movement time series classified the avoids) and to compare neuronal types within each avoid mode/class (know called “mode”). Moreover, the new modeling approach goes beyond the prior statistical limitations related to considering movement and neuronal variables separately. 

(6) The authors show that neurons that have strong responses to orientation show reduced activity during avoidance. What are the implications of this? The author should explain why this is interesting and important.

The new modeling approach goes beyond the prior analysis limitations. For instance, it shows that most of the prior orienting related activations closely reflect the orienting movement, and only in a few cases (noted and discussed in the results) orienting activations are related to the behavioral contingencies or behavioral outcomes in the task. 

(8) The experiments in Figure 10 are used to say that STN stimulation is not aversive, but they only show that STN stimulation cannot be used as punishment in place of a shock. This doesn't mean that it is not aversive; it just means it is not as aversive as a shock. The authors should do a simpler aversion test, such as conditioned or real-time place preference, to claim that STN stimulation is not aversive. This is particularly surprising as previous work (Serra et al., 2023) does show that STN stimulation is aversive.

Optogenetic excitation is no longer part of the study. 

(7) It is not clear which conditions each mouse experienced in which order. This is critical to the interpretation of Figure 9 and the reduction of passive avoids during STN stimulation. Did these mice have the CS1+STN stimulation pairing or the STN+US pairing prior to this experiment? If they did, the stimulation of the STN could be strongly associated with either punishment or with the CS1 that predicts punishment. If that is the case, stimulating the STN during CS2 could be like presenting CS1+CS2 at the same time and could be confusing.

Optogenetic excitation is no longer part of the study. 

(8) The experiments in Figure 10 are used to say that STN stimulation is not aversive, but they only show that STN stimulation cannot be used as punishment in place of a shock. This doesn't mean that it is not aversive; it just means it is not as aversive as a shock. The authors should do a simpler aversion test, such as conditioned or real-time place preference, to claim that STN stimulation is not aversive. This is particularly surprising as previous work (Serra et al., 2023) does show that STN stimulation is aversive.

Optogenetic excitation is no longer part of the study.

(9) In the discussion, the idea that the STN encodes 'moving away' from contralateral space is pretty vague and unsupported. It is puzzling that the STN activates more strongly to contraversive turns, but when stimulated, it evokes ipsiversive turns; however, it seems a stretch to speculate that this is related to avoidance. In the last experiments of the paper, the axons from the STN to the GPe and to the midbrain are selectively stimulated. Do these evoke ipsiversive turns similarly?

Optogenetic excitation is no longer part of the study. 

(10) In the discussion, the authors claim that the STN is essential for modulating action timing in response to demands, but their data really only show this in one direction. The STN stimulation reliably increases the speed of response in all conditions (except maximum speed conditions such as escapes). It seems to be over-interpreting the data to say this is an inability to modulate the speed of the task, especially as clear learning and speed modulation do occur under STN lesion conditions, as shown in Figure 12B. The mice learn to avoid and increase their latency in AA2 vs AA1, though the overall avoids and latency are different from controls. The more parsimonious conclusion would be that STN stimulation biases movement speed (increasing it) and that this is true in many different conditions.

Optogenetic excitation is no longer part of the study.

(11)  In the discussion, the authors claim that the STN projections to the midbrain tegmentum directly affect the active avoidance behavior, while the STN projections to the SNr do not affect it. This seems counter to their results, which show STN projections to either area can alter active avoidance behavior. What is the laser power used in these terminal experiments? If it is high (3mW), the authors may be causing antidromic action potentials in the STN somas, resulting in glutamate release in many brain areas, even when terminals are only stimulated in one area. The authors could use low (0.25mW) laser power in the terminals to reduce the chance of antidromic activation and spatially restrict the optical stimulation.

Optogenetic excitation is no longer part of the study. 

(12) Was normality tested for data prior to statistical testing?

Yes, although now we use mixed models

(13) Why are there no error bars on Figure 5B, black circles and orange triangles?

When error bars are not visible, they are smaller than the trace thickness or bar line—for example, in Figure 5B, the black circles and orange triangles include error bars, but they are smaller than the symbol size.

Reviewer #3 (Public review):

(1) I really don't understand or accept this idea that delayed movement is necessarily indicative of cautious movements. Is the distribution of responses multi-modal in a way that might support this idea, or do the authors simply take a normal distribution and assert that the slower responses represent 'caution'? Even if responses are multi-modal and clearly distinguished by 'type', why should readers think this that delayed responses imply cautious responding instead of say: habituation or sensitization to cue/shock, variability in attention, motivation, or stress; or merely uncertainty which seems plausible given what I understand of the task design where the same mice are repeatedly tested in changing conditions. This relates to a major claim (i.e., in the work's title).

In our study, “caution” is defined operationally as the tendency to delay initiation of an avoidance response in demanding situations (e.g., taking more time or care before crossing a busy street). The increase in avoidance latency with task difficulty is highly robust, as we have shown previously through detailed analyses of timing distributions and direct comparisons with appetitive behaviors (e.g., Zhou et al., 2022 JNeurosci). Moreover, we used the tracked movement time series to statistically classify responses into cautious modes, which is likely novel. This definition can dissociate cautious responding from broader constructs listed by a reviewer, such as attention, motivation, or stress, which must be explicitly defined to be rigorously considered in this context, including the likelihood that they covary with caution without being equivalent to it. 

Cue-evoked orienting responses at CS onset are directly measured, and their habituation and sensitization have been characterized in our prior work (e.g., Zhou et al., 2023 JNeurosci). US-evoked escapes are also measured in the present study and directly compared with avoidance responses. Together, these analyses provide a rigorous and consistent framework for defining and quantifying caution within our behavioral procedures.

Importantly, mice exhibit cautious responding as defined here across different tasks, making it more informative to classify avoidance responses by behavioral mode rather than by task alone. Accordingly, in the miniscope, single-neuron, and mixed-effects model analyses, we classified active avoids into distinct modes reflecting varying levels of caution. Although these modes covary with task contingencies, their explicit classification improves model predictability and interpretability with respect to cautious responding.

(2) Related to the last, I'm struggling to understand the rationale for dividing cells into 'types' based the their physiological responses in some experiments (e.g., Figure 7).

This section has now been expanded into 3 figures (Fig. 7-9) with new modeling approaches that should make the rationale more straight forward.

By emphasizing the mixed-effects modeling results and integrating these analyses directly into the figures, the revised manuscript now more clearly delineates what is encoded at the population and single-neuron levels. Including movement and baseline covariates allowed us to dissociate motor-related modulation from other neural signals, substantially clarifying the distinction between movement encoding and other task-related variables, which we focus on in the paper. These analyses confirm the strong role of the STN in representing movement while revealing additional signals related to aversive stimulation and cautious responding that persist after accounting for motor effects. These signals arise from distinct neuronal populations that can be differentiated by their movement sensitivity and activation patterns across avoidance modes, reflecting varying levels of caution. At the same time, several effects that initially reflected orienting-related activity at CS-onset (note that our movement tracking captures both head position and orientation as a directional vector) dissipated once movement and baseline covariates were included in the models, emphasizing the utility of the analytical improvements in the revision.

(3)The description and discussion of orienting head movements were not well supported, but were much discussed in the avoidance datasets. The initial speed peaks to cue seem to be the supporting data upon which these claims rest, but nothing here suggests head movement or orientation responses.

As described in the methods (and noted above), we track the head and decompose the movement into rotational and translational components. With the new approach, several effects that initially reflected orienting-related activity at CS-onset (note that our movement tracking captures both head position and orientation as a directional vector) dissipated once movement and baseline covariates were included in the models, emphasizing the utility of the analytical improvements in the revision.

(4) Similar to the last, the authors note in several places, including abstract, the importance of STN in response timing, i.e., particularly when there must be careful or precise timing, but I don't think their data or task design provides a strong basis for this claim.

The avoidance modes and the measured latencies directly support the relation to action timing, but now the portion of the previous paper about optogenetic excitation and apparently the main source of criticism is no longer in the present study. 

(5) I think that other reports show that STN calcium activity is recruited by inescapable foot shock as well. What do these authors see? Is shock, independent of movement, contributing to sharp signals during escapes?

The question, “Is shock, independent of movement, contributing to sharp signals during escapes?” is now directly addressed in the revised analyses. By incorporating movement and baseline covariates into the mixed-effects models, we dissociate STN activity related to aversive stimulation from that associated with motor output. The results show that shock-evoked STN activation persists even after controlling for movement within defined neuronal populations, supporting a specific nociceptive contribution independent of motor dynamics—a dissociation that appears to be new in this field.

(6) In particular, and related to the last point, the following work is very relevant and should be cited:  Note that the focus of this other paper is on a subset of VGLUT2+ Tac1 neurons in paraSTN, but using VGLUT2-Cre to target STN will target both STN and paraSTN.

We appreciate the reviewer’s reference to the recent preprint highlighting the role of the para-subthalamic nucleus in avoidance learning. However, our study focused specifically on performance in well-trained mice rather than on learning processes. Behavioral learning is inherently more variable and can be disrupted by less specific manipulations, whereas our experiments targeted the stable execution of learned avoidance behaviors. Future work will extend these findings to the learning phase and examine potential contributions of subthalamic subdivisions, which our current Vglut2-based manipulations do not dissociate. We will consider this and related work more closely in those studies.

(7) In multiple other instances, claims that were more tangential to the main claims were made without clearly supporting data or statistics. E.g., claim that STN activation is related to translational more than rotational movement; claim that GCaMP and movement responses to auditory cues were small; claims that 'some animals' responded differently without showing individual data.

We have adjusted the text accordingly.

(8) In several figures, the number of subjects used was not described. This is necessary. Also necessary is some assessment of the variability across subjects. The only measure of error shown in many figures relates to trial-to-trial or event variability, which is minimal because, in many cases, it appears that hundreds of trials may have been averaged per animal, but this doesn't provide a strong view of biological variability. When bar/line plots are used to display data, I recommend showing individual animals where feasible.

All experiments report number of mice and sessions. Wherever feasible, we display individual data points (e.g., Figures 1 and 2) to convey variability directly. However, in cases where figures depict hundreds of paired (repeated-measures) data points, showing all points without connecting them would not be appropriate, while linking them would make the figures visually cluttered and uninterpretable. All plots and traces include measures of variability (SEM), and the raw data will be shared on Dryad. When error bars are not visible, they are smaller than the trace thickness or bar line—for example, in Figure 5B, the black circles and orange triangles include error bars, but they are smaller than the symbol size.

Also, to minimize visual clutter, only a subset of relevant comparisons is highlighted with asterisks, whereas all relevant statistical results, comparisons, and mouse/session numbers are fully reported in the Results section, with statistical analyses accounting for the clustering of data within subjects and sessions.

(9) Can the authors consider the extent to which calcium imaging may be better suited to identify increases compared to decreases and how this may affect the results, particularly related to the GRIN data when similar numbers of cells show responses in both directions (e.g., Figure 3)?

This is an interesting issue related to a widely used technique beyond the scope of our study.

(10) Raw example traces are not provided.

We do not think raw traces are useful here. All figures contain average traces to reflect the activity of the estimated population.

(11) The timeline of the spontaneous movement and avoidance sessions was not clear, nor was the number of events or sessions per animal nor how this was set. It is not clear if there was pre-training or habituation, if many or variable sessions were combined per animal, or what the time gaps between sessions were, or if or how any of these parameters might influence interpretation of the results.

We have enhanced the description of the sessions, including the number of animals and sessions, which are daily and always equal per animals in each group of experiments. As noted, the sessions are part of the random effects in the model.

(12) It is not clear if or how the spread of expression outside of the target STN was evaluated, and if or how many mice were excluded due to spread or fiber placements.

The STN is anatomically well-confined, with its borders and the overlying zona incerta (composed of GABAergic neurons) providing protection against off-target expression in most neighboring forebrain regions. All viral injections were histologically verified and did not into extend into thalamic or hypothalamic areas. As described in the Methods, we employed an app we developed (Brain Atlas Analyzer, available on OriginLab) that aligns serial histological sections with the Allen Brain Atlas to precisely assess viral spread and confirm targeting accuracy. The experiments included in the revised manuscript now focus on optogenetic inhibition and irreversible lesion approaches—three complementary methods that consistently targeted the STN and yielded similar behavioral effects.

Recommendations for the authors:

Reviewing Editor Comments:

The primary feedback agreed upon by all the reviewers was that the manuscript requires significant streamlining as it is currently overly long and convoluted.

We thank the reviewers and editors for their thoughtful and constructive feedback. In response to the primary comment that “the manuscript requires significant streamlining as it is currently overly long and convoluted,” we have substantially revised and refocused the paper. Specifically, we streamlined the included data and enhanced the analyses to emphasize the central findings: the encoding of movement, cautious responding, and punishment in the STN during avoidance behavior. We also focused the causal component of the study by including only the loss-of-function experiments—both optogenetic inhibition and irreversible viral/electrolytic lesions—that establish the critical role of STN circuits in generating active avoidance. Together, these revisions enhance clarity, tighten the narrative focus, and align the manuscript more closely with the reviewers’ recommendations.

Major revisions include the addition of mixed-effects modeling to dissociate the contributions of movement from other STN-encoded signals related to caution and punishment. This modeling approach allowed us to reveal that these components are statistically separable, demonstrating that movement, cautious responding, and aversive input are encoded by neuronal subsets. To streamline the manuscript and address reviewer concerns, we removed the optogenetic excitation experiments. As revised, the paper presents a more concise and cohesive narrative showing that STN neurons differentially encode movement, caution, and aversive stimuli, and that this circuitry is essential for generating active avoidance behavior.

Many of the specific points raised by reviewers now fall outside the scope of the revised manuscript. This is primarily because the revised version omits data and analyses related to optogenetic excitation and associated control experiments. By removing these components, the paper now presents a streamlined and internally consistent dataset focused on how the STN encodes movement, cautious responding, and aversive outcomes during avoidance behavior, as well as on loss-of-function experiments demonstrating its necessity for generating active avoidance. Below, we address the points that remain relevant across reviews.

Following extensive revisions, the current manuscript differs in several important ways from what the assessment describes:

The description that the study “uses fiber photometry, implantable lenses, and optogenetics” is more accurately represented as using both fiber photometry and singleneuron calcium imaging with miniscopes, combined with optogenetic and irreversible lesion approaches.

The phrase stating that “active but not passive avoidance depends in part on STN projections to substantia nigra” is better characterized as “STN projections to the midbrain,” since our data show that optogenetic inhibition of STN terminals in both the mesencephalic reticular tegmentum (MRT) and substantia nigra pars reticulata (SNr) produce equivalent effects, and thus these sites are combined in the study. 

Finally, the original concern that evidence for STN involvement in cautious responding or avoidance speed was incomplete no longer applies. The revised focus on encoding, through the inclusion of mixed-effects modeling, now dissociates movement-related, cautious, and aversive components of STN activity. By removing the optogenetic excitation data, we no longer claim that the STN controls caution but rather that it encodes cautious responding, alongside movement and punishment signals. Furthermore, loss-of-function experiments demonstrate that silencing STN output abolishes active avoidance entirely, supporting an essential role for the STN in generating goal-directed avoidance behavior—a behavioral domain that, unlike appetitive responding, is fundamentally defined by caution and the need to balance action timing under threat.

Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

(1) Show individual data points on bar plots.

Wherever feasible, we display individual data points (e.g., Figures 1 and 2) to convey variability directly. However, in cases where figures depict hundreds of paired (repeatedmeasures) data points, showing all points without connecting them would not be appropriate, while linking them would make the figures visually cluttered and uninterpretable. All plots and traces include measures of variability (SEM), and the raw data will be shared on Dryad. When error bars are not visible, they are smaller than the trace thickness or bar line—for example, in Figure 5B, the black circles and orange triangles include error bars, but they are smaller than the symbol size.

Also, to minimize visual clutter, only a subset of relevant comparisons is highlighted with asterisks, whereas all relevant statistical results, comparisons, and mouse/session numbers are fully reported in the Results section, with statistical analyses accounting for the clustering of data within subjects and sessions.

(2) The active avoidance experiments are confusing when they are introduced in the results section. More explanation of what paradigms were used and what each CS means at the time these are introduced would add clarity. For example, AA1, AA2, etc, are explained only with references to other papers, but a brief description of each protocol and a schematic figure would really help.

The avoidance protocols (AA1–4) are now described briefly but clearly in the Results section (second paragraph of “STN neurons activate during goal-directed avoidance contingencies”) and in greater detail in the Methods section. As stated, these tasks were conducted sequentially, and mice underwent the same number of sessions per procedure, which are indicated. All relevant procedural information has been included in these sections. Mice underwent daily sessions and learnt these tasks within 1-2 sessions, progressing sequentially across tasks with an equal number of sessions per task (7 per task), and the resulting data were combined and clustered by mouse/session in the statistical models.

(3) How do the Class 1, 2, 3 avoids relate to Class 1, 2, 3 neural types established in Figure 3? It seems like they are not related, and if that is the case, they should be named something different from each other to avoid confusion. (4) Similarly, having 3 different cell types (a,b,c) in the active avoidance seems unrelated to the original classification of cell types (1,2,3), and these are different for each class of avoid. This is very confusing, and it is unclear how any of these types relate to each other. Presumably, the same mouse has all three classes of avoids, so there are recordings from each cell during each type of avoid.

The terms class, mode, and type are now clearly distinguished throughout the manuscript. Modes refer to distinct patterns of avoidance behavior that differ in the level of cautious responding (Mode 3 is most cautious). Within each mode, types denote subgroups of neurons identified based on their ΔF/F activity profiles. In contrast, classes categorize neurons according to their relationship to movement, determined by cross-correlation analyses between ΔF/F and head speed (Class1-4; Fig. 7 is a new analysis) or head turns (ClassA-C, renamed from 1-3). This updated terminology clarifies the analytic structure, highlighting distinct neuronal populations within each analysis. For example, during avoidance behaviors, these classifications distinguish neurons encoding movement-, caution-, and outcome-related signals. Comparisons are conducted within each analytical set, within classes (A-C or 1-4 separately), within avoidance modes, or within modespecific neuronal types.

…So the authors could compare one cell during each avoid and determine whether it relates to movement or sound, or something else. It is interesting that types a,b, and c have the exact same proportions in each class of avoid, and makes it important to investigate if these are the exact same cells or not.

That previous table with the a,b,c % in the three figure panels was a placeholder, which was not updated in the included figure. It has now been correctly updated. They do not have the same proportions as shown in Fig. 9, although they are similar.

Also, these mice could be recorded during the open field, so the original neural classification (class 1, 2,3) could be applied to these same cells, and then the authors can see whether each cell type defined in the open field has a different response to the different avoid types. As it stands, the paper simply finds that during movement and during avoidance behaviors, different cells in the STN do different things.

We included a new analysis in Fig. 7 that classifies neurons based on the cross-correlation with movement. The inclusion of the models now clearly assigns variance to movement versus the other factors, and this analysis leads to the classification based on avoid modes. 

(5) The use of the same colors to mean two different things in Figure 9 is confusing. AA1 vs AA2 shouldn't be the same colors as light-naïve vs light signaling CS.

Optogenetic excitation is no longer part of the study.

(6) The exact timeline of the optogenetics experiments should be presented as a schematic for understanding. It is not clear which conditions each mouse experienced in which order. This is critical to the interpretation of Figure 9 and the reduction of passive avoids during STN stimulation. Did these mice have the CS1+STN stimulation pairing or the STN+US pairing prior to this experiment? If they did, the stimulation of the STN could be strongly associated with either punishment or with the CS1that predicts punishment. If that is the case, stimulating the STN during CS2 could be like presentingCS1+CS2 at the same time and could be confusing. The authors should make it clear whether the mice were naïve during this passive avoid experiment or whether they had experienced STN stimulation paired with anything prior to this experiment.

Optogenetic excitation is no longer part of the study.

(20) Similarly, the duration of the STN stimulation should be made clear on the plots that show behavior over time (e.g., Figure 9E).

Optogenetic excitation is no longer part of the study.

(21) There is just so much data and so many conditions for each experiment here. The paper is dense and difficult to read. It would really benefit readability if the authors put only the key experiments and key figure panels in the main text and moved much of the repetitive figure panels to supplemental figures. The addition of schematic drawings for behavioral experiment timing and for the different AA1, AA2, and AA3 conditions would also really improve clarity.

By focusing the study, we believe it has substantially improved clarity and readability. 

Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

(1) Minor error in results 'Cre-AAV in the STN of Vglut2-Cre' Fixed.

(2) In some Figure 2 panels, the peaks appear to be cut off, and blue traces are obscured by red.

In Fig. 2, the peaks of movement (speed) traces are intentionally truncated to emphasize the rising phase of the turn, which would otherwise be obscured if the full y-axis range were displayed (peaks and other measures are statistically compared). This adjustment enhances clarity without omitting essential detail and is now noted in the legend.

for - communication - with cells - Michael Levin

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eLife Assessment

This valuable study provides a 3D standardised anatomical atlas of the brain of an orb-weaving spider. The authors describe the brain's shape and its inner compartments-the neuropils-and add information on the distribution of a number of neuroactive substances such as neurotransmitters and neuropeptides. Through the use of histological and microscopy methods the authors provide a more complete view of an arachnid brain than previous studies and also presents convincing evidence about the organisation and homology of brain regions. The work will serve as a reference for future studies on spider brains and will enables comparisons of brain regions with insects so that the evolution of these structures can be inferred across arthropods.

Reviewer #1 (Public review):

Summary:

Artiushin et al. establish a comprehensive 3D atlas of the brain of the orb-web building spider Uloborus diversus. First, they use immunohistochemistry detection of synapsin to mark and reconstruct the neuropils of the brain of six specimen and they generate a standard brain by averaging these brains. Onto this standard 3D brain, they plot immunohistochemical stainings of major transmitters to detect cholinergic, serotonergic, octopaminergic/taryminergic and GABAergic neurons, respectively. Further, they add information on the expression of a number of neuropeptides (Proctolin, AllatostatinA, CCAP and FMRFamide). Based on this data and 3D reconstructions, they extensively describe the morphology of the entire synganglion, the discernable neuropils and their neurotransmitter/neuromodulator content.

Strengths:

While 3D reconstruction of spider brains and the detection of some neuroactive substances have been published before, this seems to be the most comprehensive analysis so far both in terms of number of substances tested and the ambition to analyzing the entire synganglion. Interestingly, besides the previously described neuropils, they detect a novel brain structure, which they call the tonsillar neuropil.

Immunohistochemistry, imaging and 3D reconstruction are convincingly done and the data is extensively visualized in figures, schemes and very useful films, which allow the reader to work with the data. Due to its comprehensiveness, this dataset will be a valuable reference for researchers working on spider brains or on the evolution of arthropod brains.

Weaknesses:

As expected for such a descriptive groundwork, new insights or hypotheses are limited while the first description of the tonsillar neuropil is interesting. The reconstruction of the main tracts of the brain would be a very valuable complementary piece of data.

Reviewer #2 (Public review):

Summary

Artiushin et al. created the first three-dimensional atlas of a synganglion in the hackled orb-weaver spider, which is becoming a popular model for web-building behavior. Immunohistochemical analysis with an impressive array of antisera reveal subcompartments of neuroanatomical structures described in other spider species as well as two previously undescribed arachnid structures, the protocerebral bridge, hagstone, and paired tonsillar neuropils. The authors describe the spider's neuroanatomy in detail and discuss similarities and differences from other spider species. The final section of the discussion examines the homology between onychophoran and chelicerate arcuate bodies and mandibulate central bodies.

Strengths

The authors set out to create a detailed 3D atlas and accomplished this goal.

Exceptional tissue clearing and imaging of the nervous system reveals the three-dimensional relationships between neuropils and some connectivity that would not be apparent in sectioned brains.

Detailed anatomical description makes it easy to reference structures described between the text and figures.

The authors used a large palette of antisera which may each be investigated in future studies for function in the spider nervous system and may be compared across species.

Weaknesses addressed in the revision

Additional added information about spider-specific neuropils helps orient a non-expert reader. While the function and connectivity of many of these structures is currently unknown, this study will be foundational in future investigations of function.

Reviewer #3 (Public review):

Summary:

This is an impressive paper that offers a much-needed 3D standardized brain atlas for the hackled-orb weaving spider Uloborus diversus, an emerging organism of study in neuroethology. The authors used a detailed immunohistological wholemount staining method that allowed them to localize a wide range of common neurotransmitters and neuropeptides and map them on a common brain atlas. Through this approach, they discovered groups of cells that may form parts of neuropils that had not previously been described, such as the 'tonsillar neuropil', which might be part of a larger insect-like central complex. Further, this work provides unique insights into previously underappreciated complexity of higher-order neuropils in spiders, particularly the arcuate body, and hints at a potentially important role for the mushroom bodies in vibratory processing for web-building spiders.

Strengths:

To understand brain function, data from many experiments on brain structure must be compiled to serve as a reference and foundation for future work. As demonstrated by the overwhelming success in genetically tractable laboratory animals, 3D standardized brain atlases are invaluable tools-especially as increasing amounts of data are obtained at the gross morphological, synaptic, and genetic levels, and as functional data from electrophysiology and imaging are integrated. Among 'non-model' organisms, such approaches have included global silver staining and confocal microscopy, MRI, and more recently, micro-computed tomography (X-ray) scans used to image multiple brains and average them into a composite reference. In this study, the authors used synapsin immunoreactivity to generate an averaged spider brain as a scaffold for mapping immunoreactivity to other neuromodulators. Using this framework, they describe many previously known spider brain structures and also identify some previously undescribed regions. They argue that the arcuate body-a midline neuropil thought to have diverged evolutionarily from the insect central complex-shows structural similarities that may support its role in path integration and navigation.

Having diverged from insects such as the fruit fly Drosophila melanogaster over 400 million years ago, spiders are an important group for study-particularly due to their elegant web-building behavior, which is thought to have contributed to their remarkable evolutionary success. How such exquisitely complex behavior is supported by a relatively small brain remains unclear. A rich tradition of spider neuroanatomy emerged in the previous century through the work of comparative zoologists, who used reduced silver and Golgi stains to reveal remarkable detail about gross neuroanatomy. Yet, these techniques cannot uncover the brain's neurochemical landscape, highlighting the need for more modern approaches-such as those employed in the present study.

A key insight from this study involves two prominent higher-order neuropils of the protocerebrum: the arcuate body and the mushroom bodies. The authors show that the arcuate body has a more complex structure and lamination than previously recognized, suggesting it is insect central complex-like and may support functions such as path integration and navigation, which are critical during web building. They also report strong synapsin immunoreactivity in the mushroom bodies and speculate that these structures contribute to vibratory processing during sensory feedback, particularly in the context of web building and prey localization. These findings align with prior work that noted the complex architecture of both neuropils in spiders and their resemblance (and in some cases greater complexity) compared to their insect counterparts. Additionally, the authors describe previously unrecognized neuropils, such as the 'tonsillar neuropil,' whose function remains unknown but may belong to a larger central complex. The diverse patterns of neuromodulator immunoreactivity further suggest that plasticity plays a substantial role in central circuits.

Weaknesses:

My major concern, however, is some of the authors' neuroanatomical descriptions rely too heavily on inference rather than what is currently resolvable from their immunohistochemistry stains alone.

Comments on revisions:

I thought that the authors did an excellent job responding to the reviews, and I have no further comments.

Author response:

The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

Public Reviews:

Reviewer #1 (Public review):

Summary:

Artiushin et al. establish a comprehensive 3D atlas of the brain of the orb-web building spider Uloborus diversus. First, they use immunohistochemistry detection of synapsin to mark and reconstruct the neuropils of the brain of six specimens and they generate a standard brain by averaging these brains. Onto this standard 3D brain, they plot immunohistochemical stainings of major transmitters to detect cholinergic, serotonergic, octopaminergic/taryminergic and GABAergic neurons, respectively. Further, they add information on the expression of a number of neuropeptides (Proctolin, AllatostatinA, CCAP, and FMRFamide). Based on this data and 3D reconstructions, they extensively describe the morphology of the entire synganglion, the discernible neuropils, and their neurotransmitter/neuromodulator content.

Strengths:

While 3D reconstruction of spider brains and the detection of some neuroactive substances have been published before, this seems to be the most comprehensive analysis so far, both in terms of the number of substances tested and the ambition to analyze the entire synganglion. Interestingly, besides the previously described neuropils, they detect a novel brain structure, which they call the tonsillar neuropil.<br /> Immunohistochemistry, imaging, and 3D reconstruction are convincingly done, and the data are extensively visualized in figures, schemes, and very useful films, which allow the reader to work with the data. Due to its comprehensiveness, this dataset will be a valuable reference for researchers working on spider brains or on the evolution of arthropod brains.

Weaknesses:

As expected for such a descriptive groundwork, new insights or hypotheses are limited, apart from the first description of the tonsillar neuropil. A more comprehensive labeling in the panels of the mentioned structures would help to follow the descriptions. The reconstruction of the main tracts of the brain would be a very valuable complementary piece of data.

Reviewer #2 (Public review):

Summary

Artiushin et al. created the first three-dimensional atlas of a synganglion in the hackled orb-weaver spider, which is becoming a popular model for web-building behavior. Immunohistochemical analysis with an impressive array of antisera reveals subcompartments of neuroanatomical structures described in other spider species as well as two previously undescribed arachnid structures, the protocerebral bridge, hagstone, and paired tonsillar neuropils. The authors describe the spider's neuroanatomy in detail and discuss similarities and differences from other spider species. The final section of the discussion examines the homology between onychophoran and chelicerate arcuate bodies and mandibulate central bodies.

Strengths

The authors set out to create a detailed 3D atlas and accomplished this goal.

Exceptional tissue clearing and imaging of the nervous system reveal the three-dimensional relationships between neuropils and some connectivity that would not be apparent in sectioned brains.

A detailed anatomical description makes it easy to reference structures described between the text and figures.

The authors used a large palette of antisera which may be investigated in future studies for function in the spider nervous system and may be compared across species.

Weaknesses

It would be useful for non-specialists if the authors would introduce each neuropil with some orientation about its function or what kind of input/output it receives, if this is known for other species. Especially those structures that are not described in other arthropods, like the opisthosomal neuropil. Are there implications for neuroanatomical findings in this paper on the understanding of how web-building behaviors are mediated by the brain?

Likewise, where possible, it would be helpful to have some discussion of the implications of certain neurotransmitters/neuropeptides being enriched in different areas. For example, GABA would signal areas of inhibitory connections, such as inhibitory input to mushroom bodies, as described in other arthropods. In the discussion section on relationships between spider and insect midline neuropils, are there similarities in expression patterns between those described here and in insects?

Reviewer #3 (Public review):

Summary:

This is an impressive paper that offers a much-needed 3D standardized brain atlas for the hackled-orb weaving spider Uloborus diversus, an emerging organism of study in neuroethology. The authors used a detailed immunohistological whole-mount staining method that allowed them to localize a wide range of common neurotransmitters and neuropeptides and map them on a common brain atlas. Through this approach, they discovered groups of cells that may form parts of neuropils that had not previously been described, such as the 'tonsillar neuropil', which might be part of a larger insect-like central complex. Further, this work provides unique insights into the previously underappreciated complexity of higher-order neuropils in spiders, particularly the arcuate body, and hints at a potentially important role for the mushroom bodies in vibratory processing for web-building spiders.

Strengths:

To understand brain function, data from many experiments on brain structure must be compiled to serve as a reference and foundation for future work. As demonstrated by the overwhelming success in genetically tractable laboratory animals, 3D standardized brain atlases are invaluable tools - especially as increasing amounts of data are obtained at the gross morphological, synaptic, and genetic levels, and as functional data from electrophysiology and imaging are integrated. Among 'non-model' organisms, such approaches have included global silver staining and confocal microscopy, MRI, and, more recently, micro-computed tomography (X-ray) scans used to image multiple brains and average them into a composite reference. In this study, the authors used synapsin immunoreactivity to generate an averaged spider brain as a scaffold for mapping immunoreactivity to other neuromodulators. Using this framework, they describe many previously known spider brain structures and also identify some previously undescribed regions. They argue that the arcuate body - a midline neuropil thought to have diverged evolutionarily from the insect central complex - shows structural similarities that may support its role in path integration and navigation.

Having diverged from insects such as the fruit fly Drosophila melanogaster over 400 million years ago, spiders are an important group for study - particularly due to their elegant web-building behavior, which is thought to have contributed to their remarkable evolutionary success. How such exquisitely complex behavior is supported by a relatively small brain remains unclear. A rich tradition of spider neuroanatomy emerged in the previous century through the work of comparative zoologists, who used reduced silver and Golgi stains to reveal remarkable detail about gross neuroanatomy. Yet, these techniques cannot uncover the brain's neurochemical landscape, highlighting the need for more modern approaches-such as those employed in the present study.

A key insight from this study involves two prominent higher-order neuropils of the protocerebrum: the arcuate body and the mushroom bodies. The authors show that the arcuate body has a more complex structure and lamination than previously recognized, suggesting it is insect central complex-like and may support functions such as path integration and navigation, which are critical during web building. They also report strong synapsin immunoreactivity in the mushroom bodies and speculate that these structures contribute to vibratory processing during sensory feedback, particularly in the context of web building and prey localization. These findings align with prior work that noted the complex architecture of both neuropils in spiders and their resemblance (and in some cases greater complexity) compared to their insect counterparts. Additionally, the authors describe previously unrecognized neuropils, such as the 'tonsillar neuropil,' whose function remains unknown but may belong to a larger central complex. The diverse patterns of neuromodulator immunoreactivity further suggest that plasticity plays a substantial role in central circuits.

Weaknesses:

My major concern, however, is that some of the authors' neuroanatomical descriptions rely too heavily on inference rather than what is currently resolvable from their immunohistochemistry stains alone.

We would like to thank the reviewers for their time and effort in carefully reading our manuscript and providing helpful feedback, and particularly for their appreciation and realistic understanding of the scope of this study and its context within the existing spider neuroanatomical literature.

Regarding the limitations and potential additions to this study, we believe these to be well-reasoned and are in agreement. We plan to address some of these shortcomings in future publications.

As multiple reviewers remarked, a mapping of the major tracts of the brain would be a welcome addition to understanding the neuroanatomy of U. diversus. This is something which we are actively working on and hope to provide in a forthcoming publication. Given the length of this paper as is, we considered that a treatment of the tracts would be better served as an additional paper. Likewise, mapping of the immunoreactive somata of the currently investigated targets is a component which we would like to describe as part of a separate paper, keeping the focus of the current one on neuropils, in order to leverage our aligned volumes to describe co-expression patterns, which is not as useful for the more widely dispersed somata. Furthermore, while we often see somata through immunostaining, the presence and intensity of the signal is variable among immunoreactive populations. We are finding that these populations are more consistently and comprehensively revealed thru fluorescent in situ hybridization.

We appreciate the desire of the reviewers for further information regarding the connectivity and function of the described neuropils, and where possible we have added additional statements and references. That being said, where this context remains sparse is largely a reflection of the lack of information in the literature. This is particularly the case for functional roles for spider neuropils, especially higher order ones of the protocerebrum, which are essentially unexamined. As summarized in the quite recent update to Foelix’s Spider Neuroanatomy, a functional understanding for protocerebral neuropil is really only available for the visual pathway. Consequently, it is therefore also difficult to speak of the implications for presence or absence of particular signaling elements in these neuropils, if no further information about the circuitry or behavioral correlates are available. Finally, multiple reviewers suggested that it might be worthwhile to explore a comparison of the arcuate body layer innervation to that of the central bodies of insects, of which there is a richer literature. This is an idea which we were also initially attracted to, and have now added some lines to the discussion section. Our position on this is a cautious one, as a series of more recent comparative studies spanning many insect species using the same antibody, reveals a considerable amount of variation in central body layering even within this clade, which has given us pause in interpreting how substantive similarities and differences to the far more distant spiders would be. Still, this is an interesting avenue which merits an eventual comprehensive analysis, one which would certainly benefit from having additional examples from more spider species, in order to not overstate conclusions based on the currently limited neuroanatomical representation.

Given our framing for the impetus to advance neuroanatomical knowledge in orb-web builders, the question of whether the present findings inform the circuitry controlling web-building is one that naturally follows. While we are unable with this dataset alone to define which brain areas mediate web-building - something which would likely be beyond any anatomical dataset lacking complementary functional data – the process of assembling the atlas has revealed structures and defined innervation patterns in previously ambiguous sectors of the spider brain, particularly in the protocerebrum. A simplistic proposal is that such regions, which are more conspicuous by our techniques and in this model species, would be good candidates for further inquiries into web-building circuitry, as their absence or oversight in past work could be attributable to the different behavioral styles of those model species. Regardless, granted that such a hypothesis cannot be readily refuted by the existing neuroanatomical literature, underscores the need to have more finely refined models of the spider brain, to which we hope that we have positively contributed to and are gratified by the reviewer’s enthusiasm for the strengths of this study.

Recommendations for the authors:

Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

(1) Brenneis 2022 has done a very nice and comprehensive study focused on the visual system - this might be worth including.

Thank you, we have included this reference on Line 34.

(2) L 29: When talking about "connectivity maps", the emerging connectomes based on EM data could be mentioned.

Additional references have been added, thank you. Line 35.

(3) L 99: Please mention that you are going to describe the brain from ventral to dorsal.

Thank you, we have added a comment to Line 99.

(4) L 13: is found at the posterior.

Thank you, revised.

(5) L 168: How did you pick those two proctolin+ somata, given that there is a lot of additional punctate signal?

Although not visible in this image, if you scroll through the stack there is a neurite which extends from these neurons directly to this area of pronounced immunoreactivity.

(6) Figure 1: Please add the names of the neuropils you go through afterwards.

We have added labels for neuropils which are recognizable externally.

(7) Figure 1 and Figure 5: Please mark the esophagus.

Label has now been added to Figure 1. In Figure 5, the esophagus should not really be visible because these planes are just ventral to its closure.

(8) Figure 5A: I did not see any CCAP signal where the arrow points to; same for 5B (ChAT).

In hindsight, the CCAP point is probably too minor to be worth mentioning, so we have removed it.

The ChAT signal pattern in 5B has been reinforced by adding a dashed circle to show its location as well.

(9) L 249: Could the circular spot also be a tract (many tracts lack synapsin - at least in insects)?

Yes, thank you for pointing this out – the sentence is revised (L274). We are currently further analyzing anti-tubulin volumes and it seem that indeed there are tracts which occupy these synapsin-negative spaces, although interestingly they do not tend to account for the entire space.

(10) L 302: Help me see the "conspicuous" thing.

Brace added to Fig. 8B, note in caption.

(11) L 315: Please first introduce the number of the eyes and how these relate to 1{degree sign} and 2{degree sign} pathway. Are these separate pathways from separate eyes or two relay stations of one visual pathway?

We have expanded the introduction to this section (L336). Yes, these are considered as two separate visual pathways, with a typical segregation of which eyes contribute to which pathway – although there is evidence for species-specific differences in these contributions. In the context of this atlas, we are not currently able to follow which eyes are innervating which pathway.

(12) L 343: It seems that the tonsillar neuropil could be midline spanning (at least this is how I interpret the signal across the midline). Would it make sense to re-formulate from a paired structure to midline-spanning? Would that make it another option for being a central complex homolog?

In the spectrum from totally midline spanning and unpaired (e.g., arcuate body (at least in adults)) to almost fully distinct and paired (e.g., mushroom bodies (although even here there is a midline spanning ‘bridge’)), we view the tonsillar to be more paired due to the oval components, although it does have a midline spanning section, particularly unambiguous just posterior to the oval sections.

Regarding central complex homology, if the suggestion is that the tonsillar with its midline spanning component could represent the entire central complex, then this is a possibility, but it would neglect the highly innervated and layered arcuate body, which we think represent a stronger contender – at least as a component of the central complex. For this reason, we would still be partial to the possibility that the tonsillar is a part of the central complex, but not the entire complex.

(13) L 407: ...and dorsal (..) lobe...

Added the word ‘lobe’ to this sentence (L429).

(14) L 620ff: Maybe mention the role of MBs in learning and memory.

A reference has been added at L661.

(15) L 644: In the context of arcuate body homology with the central body, I was missing a discussion of the neurotransmitters expressed in the respective parts in insects. Would that provide additional arguments?

This is an interesting comparison to explore, and is one that we initially considered making as well. There are certainly commonalities that one could point to, particularly in trying to build the case of whether particular lobes of the arcuate body are similar to the fan-shaped or ellipsoid bodies in insects. Nevertheless, something which has given us pause is studying the more recent comparative works between insect species (Timm et al., 2021, J Comp Neuro, Homberg et al., 2023, J Comp Neuro), which also reveal a fair degree of heterogeneity in expression patterns between species – and this is despite the fact that the neuropils are unambiguously homologous. When comparing to a much more evolutionarily distant organism such as the spider, it becomes less clear which extant species should serve as the best point of comparison, and therefore we fear making specious arguments by focusing on similarities when there are also many differences. We have added some of these comments to the discussion (L699-725).

Throughout the text, I frequently had difficulties in finding the panels right away in the structures mentioned in the text. It would help to number the panels (e.g., 6Ai, Aii, Aii,i etc) and refer to those in the text. Further, all structures mentioned in the text should be labelled with arrows/arrowheads unless they are unequivocally identified in the panel

Thank you for the suggestion. We have adopted the additional numbering scheme for panels, and added additional markers where suggested.

Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

(1) L 18: "neurotransmitter" should be pluralized.

Thank you, revised (L18).

(2) L 55: Missing the word "the" before "U. diversus".

Thank you, revised (L57).

(3) L 179: Change synaptic dense to "synapse-dense".

Thank you, revised (L189).

(4) L 570: "present in" would be clearer than "presented on in".

Our intention here was to say that Loesel et al did not show slices from the subesophageal mass for CCAP, so it was ambiguous as to whether it had immunoreactivity there but they simply did not present it, or if it indeed doesn’t show signal in the subesophageal. But agreed, this is awkward phrasing which has been revised (L606-608), thank you.

(5) L 641: It would be worth noting that the upper and lower central bodies are referred to as the fan-shaped and ellipsoid bodies in many insects.

Thank you, this has been added in L694.

(6) L 642: Although cited here regarding insect central body layers, Strausfeld et al. 2006 mainly describe the onychophoran brain and the evolutionary relationship between the onychophoran and chelicerate arcuate bodies. The phylogenetic relationships described here would strengthen the discussion in the section titled "A spider central complex?"

The phylogenetic relationship of onychophorans and chelicerates remains controversial and therefore we find it tricky to use this point to advance the argument in that discussion section, as one could make opposing arguments. The homology of the arcuate body (between chelicerates, onychophorans, and mandibulates) has likewise been argued over, with this Strausfeld et al paper offering one perspective, while others are more permissive (good summary at end of Doeffinger et al., 2010). Our thought was simply to draw attention to grossly similar protocerebral neuropils in examples from distantly related arthropods, without taking a stance, as our data doesn’t really deeply advance one view over the other.

(7) L 701- Noduli have been described in stomatopods (Thoen et al., Front. Behav. Neurosci., 2017).

This is an important addition, thank you – it has been incorporated and cited (L766).

(8) Antisera against DC0 (PKA-C alpha) may distinguish globuli cells from other soma surrounding the mushroom bodies, but this may be accomplished in future studies.

Agreed, this is something we have been interested in, but have not yet acquired the antibody.

Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

Overall, this paper is both timely and important. However, it may face some resistance from classically trained arthropod neuroanatomists due to the authors' reliance on immunohistochemistry alone. A method to visualize fiber tracts and neuropil morphology would have been a valuable and grounding complement to the dataset and can be added in future publications. Tract-tracing methods (e.g., dextran injections) would strengthen certain claims about connectivity - particularly those concerning the mushroom bodies. For delineating putative cell populations across regions, fluorescence in situ hybridization for key transcripts would offer convincing evidence, especially in the context of the arcuate body, the tonsillar neuropil, and proposed homologies to the insect central complex.

That said, the dataset remains rich and valuable. Outlined below are a number of issues the authors may wish to address. Most are relatively minor, but a few require further clarification.

(1) Abstract

(a) L 12-14: The authors should frame their work as a novel contribution to our understanding of the spider brain, rather than solely as a tool or stepping stone for future studies. The opening sentences currently undersell the significance of the study.

Thank you for your encourament! We have revised the abstract.

(b) Rather than touting "first of its kind" in the abstract, state what was learned from this.

Thank you, we have revised the abstract.

(c) The abstract does not mention the major results of the study. It should state which brain regions were found. It should list all of the peptides and transmitters that were tested so that they can be discoverable in searches.

Thank you, revised.

(2) Introduction

(a) L 38: There's a more updated reference for Long (2016): Long, S. M. (2021). Variations on a theme: Morphological variation in the secondary eye visual pathway across the order of Araneae. Journal of Comparative Neurology, 529(2), 259-280.

Thank you, this has been updated (L41 and elsewhere).

(b) L 47: While whole-mount imaging offers some benefits, a downside is the need for complete brain dissection from the cuticle, which in spiders likely damages superficial structures (such as the secondary eye pathways).

True – we have added this caveat to the section (L48-51).

(c) L 49-52: If making this claim, more explicit comparisons with non-web building C. saeli in terms of neuropil presence, volume, or density later in the paper would be useful.

We do not have the data on hand to make measured comparisons of C. salei structures, and the neuropils identified in this study are not clearly identifiable in the slices provided in the literature, so would likely require new sample preparations. We’ve removed the reference to proportionality and softened this sentence slightly – we are not trying to make a strong claim, but simply state that this is a possibility.

(3) Results

(a) The authors should state how they accounted for autofluorescence.

While we did not explicitly test for autofluorescence, the long process of establishing a working whole-mount immuno protocol and testing antibodies produced many examples of treated brains which did not show any substantial signal.  We have added a note to the methods section (L866).

(b) L 69: There is some controversy in delineating the subesophageal and supraesophageal mass as the two major divisions despite its ubiquity in the literature. It might be safer to delineate the protocerebrum, deutocerebrum, and fused postoral ganglia (including the pedipalp ganglion) instead.

Thank you for this insight, we have modified the section, section headings and Figure 1 to account for this delineation as well. We have chosen to include both ways of describing the synganglion, in order to maintain a parallel with the past literature, and to be further accessible to non-specialist readers. L73-77

(c) L 90: It might be useful to include a justification for the use of these particular neuropeptides.

Thank you, revised. L97-99.

(d) L 106 - 108: It is stated that the innervation pattern of the leg neuropils is generally consistent, but from Figure 2, it seems that there are differences. The density of 5HT, Proctolin, ChAT, and FMRFamide seems to be higher in the posterior legs. AstA seems to have a broader distribution in L1 and is absent in L4.

We would still stand by the generalization that the innervation pattern is fairly similar for each leg. The L1 neuropils tend to be bigger than the posterior legs, which might explain the difference in density. Another important aspect to keep in mind is that not all of the leg neuropils appear at the exact same imaging plane as we move from ventral to dorsal. If you scroll through the synapsin stack (ventral to dorsal), you will see that L2 and L3 appear first, followed shortly by L1, and then L4, and at the dorsal end of the subesophageal they disappear in the opposite order. The observations listed here are true for the single z-plane in Figure 2, but the fact that they don’t appear at the same time seems to mainly account for these differences. For example, if you scroll further ventrally in the AstA volume, you will see a very similar innervation appear in L4 as well, even though it is absent in the Fig. 2 plane. We plan to have these individual volumes available from a repository so that they can be individually examined to better see the signal at all levels. At the moment, the entire repository can be accessed here: https://doi.org/10.35077/ace-moo-far.

(e) Figure 1 and elsewhere: The axes for the posterior and lateral views show Lateral and Medial. It would be more accurate to label them Left and Right. because it does not define the medial-to-lateral axis. The medial direction is correct for only one hemiganglion, and it's the opposite for the contralateral side.

Thank you, revised.

(f) In Figures that show particular sections, it might be helpful to include a plane in the standard brain to illustrate where that section is.

Yes, we agree and it was our original intention. It is something we can attempt to do, but there is not much room in the corners of many of the synapsin panels, making it harder to make the 3D representation big enough to be clear.

(g) Figure 2, 3: Presenting the z-section stack separately in B and C is awkward because it makes it seem that they are unrelated. I think it would be better to display the z160-190 directly above its corresponding z230-260 for each of the exemplars in B and C. Since there's no left-right asymmetry, a hemibrain could be shown for all examples as was done for TH in D. It's not clear why TH was presented differently.

Thank you for this suggestion. We rearranged the figure as described, but ultimately still found the original layout to be preferrable, in part because the labelling becomes too cramped. We hope that the potential confusion of the continuity of the B and C sections will be mitigated by focusing on the z plane labels and overall shape – which should suggest that the planes are not far from each other. We trust that the form of the leg neuropils is recognizable in both B and C synapsin images, and so readers will make the connection.

Regarding TH, this panel is apart from the rest because we were unable to register the TH volume to the standard brain because the variant of the protocol which produced good anti-TH staining conflicted with synapsin, and we could not simultaneously have adequate penetration of the synapsin signal. We did not want to align the TH panel with the others to avoid potential confusion that this was a view from the same z-plane of a registered volume, as the others are. We have added a note to the figure caption.

(h) The locations of the labels should be consistent. The antisera are below the images in Figure 2, above in Figure 3, and to the bottom left in Figure 5. The slices are shown above in Figure 2 and below in Figure 3.

Thank you, this has been revised for better consistency.

(i) It is surprising to me that there is no mention of the neuronal somata visible in Figure 2 and Figure 3. A typical mapping of the brain would map the locations of the neurons, not just the neuropils.

Our first arrangement of this paper described each immunostain individually from ventral to dorsal, including locations of the immunoreactive somata which could be observed. To aid the flow of the paper and leverage the aligned volumes to emphasize co-expression in the function divisions of the brain, we re-formulated to this current layout which is organized around neuropils. Somata locations are tricky to incorporate in this format of the paper which focuses on key z-planes or tight max projections, because the relevant immunoreactive somata are more dispersed throughout the synganglion, not always overlapping in neighboring z-planes. Further, since only a minority of the antisera we used can reveal traceable projections from the supplying somata in the whole-mount preparation, we would be quite limited in the degree to which we could integrate the specific somata mapping with expression patterns in the neuropil.  Finally, compared to immuno, which can be variable in staining intensity between somata for the same target, we find that FISH reveals these locations more clearly and comprehensively – so while we agree that this mapping would also be useful for the atlas, we would like to better provide this information in a future publication using whole-mount FISH.

(j) L 139: There is a reference to a "brace" in Figure 3B, which does not seem to exist. There's one in Figure 3C.

There is a smaller brace near the bottom of the TDC2 panel in Fig. 3B.

(k) L 151 should be "3D".

Thank you, revised (L160).

(l) Figure 4C: It is not mentioned in the legend that the bottom inset is Proctolin without synapsin.

Thank you, revised (L1213).

(m) L 199: Are the authors sure this subdivision is solely on the anterior-posterior axis? Could it also be dorsal ventral? (i.e., could this be an artifact of the protocerebrum and deutocerebrum?)

Yes, this division can be appreciated to extend somewhat in the dorsal-ventral axis and it is possible that this is the protocerebrum emerging after the deutocerebrum, although this area is largely dorsal to the obvious part of the deutocerebrum. In the horizontal planes there appears to be a boundary line which we use for this subdivision in order to assist in better describing features within this generally ventral part of the protocerebrum – referred to as “stalk” because it is thinner before the protocerebrum expands in size, dorsally. Our intention was more organizational, and as stated in the text, this area is likely heterogenous and we are not suggesting that it has a unified function, so being a visual artifact would not be excluded.

(n) L 249: Could it also indicate large tracts projecting elsewhere?

Yes, definitely, we have evidence that part of the space is occupied by tracts. Revised, thank you (L262).

(o) L 281: Several investigators, including Long (2021,) noted very large and robust mushroom bodies of Nephila.

Thank you – the point is well taken that there are examples of orb-web builders that do have appreciable mushroom bodies. We have added a note in this section (L295), giving the examples of Deinopis spinosa and Argiope trifasciata (Figure 4.20 and 4.22 in Long, 2016).

It looks like these species make the point better than Nephila, as Long lists the mushroom body percentage of total protocerebral volume for D. spinosa as 4.18%, for A. trifasciata as 2.38%, but doesn’t give a percentage for Nephila clavipes (Figure 4.24) and only labels the mushroom bodies structures as “possible” in the figure.

In Long (2021), Nephilidae is described as follows: “In Nephilidae, I found what could be greatly reduced medullae at the caudal end of the laminae, as well as a structure that has many physical hallmarks of reduced mushroom bodies”

(p) L 324: If the authors were able to stain for histamine or supplement this work with a different dissection technique for the dorsal structures, the visual pathways might have been apparent, which seems like a very important set of neuropils to include in a complete brain atlas.

Yes, for this reason histamine has been an interesting target which we have attempted to visualize, but unfortunately have not yet been able to successfully stain for in U. diversus. An additional complication is that the antibodies we have seen call for glutaraldehyde fixation, which may make them incompatible with our approach to producing robust synapsin staining throughout the brain. 

We agree that the lack of the complete visual pathway is a substantial weakness of our preparation, and should be amended in future work, but this will likely require developing a modified approach in order to preserve these delicate structures in U. diversus.

(q) L 331: Is this bulbous shape neuropil, or just the remains of neuropil that were not fully torn away during dissection?

This certainly is a severed part of the primary pathway, although it seems more likely that the bulbous shape is indicative of a neuropil form, rather than just being a happenstance shape that occurred during the breakage. We have examples where the same bulbous shape appears on both sides, and in different brains. It is possible that this may be the principal eye lamina – although we did not see co-staining with expected markers in examples where it did appear, so cannot be sure.

(r) L 354: Is tyraminergic co-staining with the protocerebral bridge enough evidence to speculate that inputs are being supplied?

We agree that this is not compelling, and have removed the statement.

(s) L 372: This whole structure appears to be a previously described structure in spiders, the 'protocerebral commissure'.

We are reasonably sure that what we are calling the PCB is a distinct structure from the protocerebral bridge (PCC). In Babu and Barth’s (1984) horizontal slice (Fig. 11b), you can see the protocerebral commissure immediately adjacent to the mushroom body bridge. It is found similarly located in other species, as can be seen in the supplementary 3D files provided by Steinhoff et al., (2024).

While not visible with synapsin in U. diversus, we likewise can make out a commissure in this area in close proximity to the mushroom body bridge using tubulin staining. What we are calling the protocerebral bridge is a structure which is much more dorsal to the protocerebral commissure, not appearing in the same planes as the MB bridge.

(t) L 377: Do you have an intuition why the tonsillar neuropil and the protocerebral bridge would show limited immunoreactivity, while the arcuate body's is quite extensive?

This is an interesting question. Given the degree of interconnection and the fact that multiple classes of neurons in insects will innervate both central body as well as PCB or noduli, perhaps it would be expected that expression in tonsillar and protocerebral bridge should be commensurate to the innervation by that particular neurotransmitter expressing population in the arcuate body. Apart from the fact that the arcuate body is just bigger, perhaps this points to a great role of the arcuate body for integration, whereas the tonsillar and PCB may engage in more particular processing, or be limited to certain sensory modalities.

Interestingly, it seems that this pattern of more limited immunoreactivity in the PCB and noduli compared with the central bodies (fan-shaped/ellipsoid) also appears in insects (Kahsai et al., 2010, J Comp Neuro, Timm et al., 2021, J Comp Neuro, Homberg et al., 2023, J Comp Neuro) – particularly, with almost every target having at least some layering in the fan-shaped body (Kahsai et al., 2010, J Comp Neuro).  For example, serotoninergic innervation is fairly consistently seen in the upper and lower central bodies across insects, but its presence in the PCB or noduli is more variable – appearing in one or the other in a species-dependent manner (Homberg et al., 2023, J Comp Neuro).

(4) Discussion

(a) L 556: But if confocal images from slices are aligned, is the 3D shape not preserved?

Yes, fair enough – the point we wanted to make was that there is still a limitation in z resolution depending on the thickness of the slices used, which could obscure structures, but perhaps this is too minor of a comment.

(b) L 597: This is a very interesting result. I agree it's likely to do with the processing of mechanosensory information relevant to web activities, and the mushroom body seems like the perfect candidate for this.

(c) L 638: Worth noting that neuropil volume vs density of synapses might play a role in this, as the literature is currently a bit ambiguous with regards to the former.

Thank you, noted (L689).

(d) L 651: The latter seems far more plausible.

Agreed, though the presence of mushroom bodies appears to be variable in spiders, so we didn’t want to take a strong stance, here.

Aww, respect the wishes of those who aim to become forgotten!

I remember when my Disgaea save file got deleted... I cried!

Would say representation and projection, I find actualization and idealization a bit blurry. I represent how I currently feel like, and create projections of how I would envision myself under other circumstances.

Minecraft Hypixel's Technoblade memorial

That's a cool method!

Services like Gmail have the option.

Much like you don't let go of a friend who you've lost touch with, you may not let go of a deceased one, and instead adopt part of them on your way of living, an item, a common friend, a habit, etc. a means to honour this person, to keep their legacy out of respect.

Version 2 of this preprint has been peer-reviewed and recommended by Peer Community in Zoology.<br /> See the peer reviews and the recommendation.

Solomon’s death, there were two kingdoms: Israel and Judah." Israel had its capital at Samaria, where they worshipped idols, and they were conquered by the Assyrians in 722 BCE.

eLife Assessment

This valuable study addresses T cell receptor activation during autoreactive T cell development and how the strength of T cell receptor engagement in naïve cells can predispose T cells to develop into effector/memory T cells. The authors lead with solid results that are largely consistent with data in the field suggesting that, in comparison to their counterparts with relatively lower basal self-reactivity, naive CD5hi CD8 T cells in non-obese diabetic (NOD) mice are poised for activation. They propose that diabetogenic T cells are preferentially found among the naive CD5hi CD8 T cell population. While the evidence does not fully support all the authors' conclusions, the data provide a foundation that sets up future studies.

Reviewer #1 (Public review):

Summary

In their manuscript, Ho and colleagues investigate the importance of thymically-imprinted self-reactivity in determining CD8 T cell pathogenicity in non-obese diabetic (NOD) mice. The authors describe pre-existing functional biases associated with naive CD8 T cell self-reactivity based on CD5 levels, a well characterized proxy for T cell affinity to self-peptide. They find that naive CD5hi CD8 T cells are poised to respond to antigen challenge; these findings are largely consistent with previously published data on the C57Bl/6 background. The authors go on to suggest that naive CD5hi CD8 T cells are more diabetogenic as 1) the CD5hi naive CD8 T cell receptor repertoire has features associated with autoreactivity and contains a larger population of islet-specific T cells, and 2) the autoreactivity of "CD5hi" monoclonal islet-specific TCR transgenic T cells cannot be controlled by phosphatase over-expression. Thus, they implicate CD8 T cells with relatively higher levels of basal self-reactivity in autoimmunity. The data presented offers valuable insights and sets the foundation for future studies, but some conclusions are not yet fully supported.

Specific comments

There is value in presenting phenotypic differences between naive CD5lo and CD5hi CD8 T cells in the NOD background as most previous studies have used T cells harvested from C57Bl/6 mice or peripheral blood from healthy human donors.

The comparison of a marker of self-reactivity, CD5 in this case, on broad thymocyte populations (DN/DP/CD8SP) is cautioned. CD5 is upregulated with signals associated with b-selection and positive selection; CD5 levels will thus vary even among subsets within these broad developmental intermediates. This is a particularly important consideration when comparing CD5 across thymic intermediates in polyclonal versus TCR transgenic thymocytes due to the striking differences in thymic selection efficiency, resulting in different developmental population profiles. The higher levels of CD5 noted in the DN population of NOD8.3 mice, for example, is likely due to the shift towards more mature DN4 post-b-selection cells. Similarly, in the DP population, the larger population of post-positive selection cells in the NOD8.3 transgenic thymus may also skew CD5 levels significantly. Overall, the reported differences between NOD and NOD8.3 thymocyte subsets could be due largely to differences in differentiation/maturation stage rather than affinity for self-antigen during T cell development. The authors have added some additional text to the revised manuscript that acknowledges some of these limitations.

The lack of differences in CD5 levels of post-positive selection DP thymocytes, CD8 SP thymocytes, and CD8 T cells in the pancreas draining lymph nodes from NOD vs NOD8.3 mice also raises questions about the relevance of this model to address the question of basal self-reactivity and diabetogenicity and the authors' conclusion that "that intrinsic high CD5-associated self-reactivity in NOD8.3 T cells overrides the transgenic Pep-mediated protection observed in dLPC/NOD mice"; the phenotype of the polyclonal and NOD8.3 TCR transgenic CD8 T cells that were analyzed in the (spleen and) pancreas draining lymph nodes is not clear (i.e., are these gated on naive T cells?). Furthermore, the rationale for the comparison with NOD-BDC2.5 mice that carry an MHC II-restricted TCR is unclear.

In reference to the conclusion that transgenic Pep phosphatase does not inhibit the diabetogenic potential of "CD5hi" CD8 T cells, there is some concern that comparing diabetes development in mice receiving polyclonal versus TCR transgenic T cells specific for an islet antigen is not appropriate. The increased frequency and number of antigen specific T cells in the NOD8.3 mice may be responsible for some of the observed differences. Further justification for the comparison is suggested.

The manuscript presents an interesting observation that TCR sequences from CD5hi CD8 T cells may share certain characteristics with diabetogenic T cells found in patients (e.g., CDR3 length), and that autoantigen-specific T cells may be enriched within the CD5hi naive CD8 T cell population. However, the percentage of tetramer-positive cells among naive CD8 T cells appears unusually high in the data presented, and caution is warranted when comparing additional T cell receptor features of self-reactivity/auto-reactivity between CD4 and CD8 T cells.

The counts for the KEGG enrichment pathways presented are relatively low, and the robustness of the analysis should be carefully considered, particularly given that several significance values appear borderline. That said, the differentially expressed genes among CD5lo and CD5hi CD8 T cells are generally consistent with previously published datasets.

The manuscript includes some imprecise wording that may be misleading. For example (not exhaustive): The strength of TCR reactivity to foreign antigen is not "contributed by basal TCR signal" per se but rather correlates with sub-threshold TCR signals necessary for T cell development and survival, CD5 is not broadly expressed on all B cells as the text might suggest but is restricted to a specific subset of B cells, some of the proximal signaling molecules downstream of the preTCR are different than for the mature TCR, upregulation of CD127 at early timepoints post T cell activation is not directly suggestive of their "heightened capabilities in memory T cell homeostasis", etc. The statement "Our study exclusively examined female mice because the disease modeled is relevant in females" should be reconsidered. While the use of female NOD mice can be justified by their higher incidence of diabetes than their male counterparts, the current wording could be misleading.

For clarity and transparency, please consider while additional information is provided in the revised manuscript, gating strategies are not always clear (i.e., naive versus total CD8 T cells), and the age/status of the mice from which cells are harvested (i.e., prediabetic?) is not consistently provided as far as this reviewer noted.

Reviewer #2 (Public review):

Summary:

In this study Chia-Lo Ho et al. study the impact of CD5high CD8 T cells in the pathophysiology of type 1 diabetes (T1D) in NOD mice. The authors used high expression of CD5 as a surrogate of high TCR signaling and self-reactivity and compared the phenotype, transcriptome, TCR usage, function and pathogenic properties of CD5high vs. CD5low CD8 T cells extracted from the so-called naive T cell pool. The study shows that CD5high CD8 T cells resemble memory T cells poised for stronger response to TCR stimulation and that they exacerbate disease upon transfer in RAG-deficient NOD mice. The authors attempt to link these features to the thymic selection events of these CD5high CD8 T cells. Importantly, forced overexpression of the phosphatase PTPN22 in T cells attenuated TCR signaling and reduced pathogenicity of polyclonal CD8 T cells but not highly autoreactive 8.3-TCR CD8 T cells.

Strengths:

The study is nicely performed and the manuscript is clearly and well written. Interpretation of the data is careful and fair. The data are novel and likely important. However, some issues would need to be clarified through either text changes or addition of new data.

Weaknesses:

The definition of naïve T cells based solely on CD44low and CD62Lhigh staining may be oversimplistic. Indeed, even within this definition naïve CD5high CD8 T cells express much higher levels of CD44 than CD5low CD8 T cells.

Comments on revisions:

The authors addressed my previous comments thoughtfully and extensively.

Reviewer #3 (Public review):

Summary:

In this study, Ho et al. hypothesised that autoreactive T cells receiving enhanced TCR signals during positive selection in the thymus are primed for generating effector and memory T cells. They used CD5 as a marker for TCR signal strength during their selection at the double positive stage. Supporting their hypothesis, naïve T cells with high CD5 proliferated better and expressed markers of T cell activation compared to naïve T cells with lower levels of CD5. Furthermore, results showed that autoimmune diabetes can be efficiently induced after the transfer of naïve CD5 hi T cells compared to CD5 lo T cells. This provided solid evidence in support of their hypothesis that T cells receiving higher basal TCR signaling are primmed to develop into effector T cells. However, all functional characterisation was done on the cells in the periphery and CD5 hi cells in the peripheral lymphoid compartment can receive tonic TCR signaling. Hence, the function of CD5 hi T cells might not be related to development and programming in the thymus. This is a major hurdle in the interpretation of the results and justifying the title of the study. The evidence that transgenic PTPN22 expression could not regulate T cell activation in CD5 hi TCR transgenic autoreactive T cells was weak. Studying T cell development in TCR transgenic mice and looking at TCR downstream signaling could be misleading due to transgenic expression of TCR at all developmental stages.

Strengths:

(1) Demonstrating that CD5 hi cells in naïve CD8 T cell compartment express markers of T cell activation, proliferation and cytotoxicity at a higher level

(2) Using gene expression analysis, study showed CD5 hi cells among naïve CD8 T cells are transcriptionally poised to develop into effector or memory T cells.

(3) Study showed that CD5 hi cells have higher basal TCR signaling compared to CD5 lo T cells.

(4) Key evidence of pathogenicity of autoreactive CD5 hi T cells was provided by doing the adoptive transfer of CD5 hi and CD5 lo CD8 T cells into NOD Rag1-/- mice and comparing them.

Weaknesses:

(1) Although CD5 can be used as a marker for self-reactivity and T cell signal strength during thymic development, it can also be regulated in the periphery by tonic TCR signaling or when T cells are activated by its cognate antigen. Hence, TCR signals in the periphery could also prime the T cells towards effector/memory differentiation. That's why from the evidence presented here it cannot be concluded that this predisposition of T cells towards effector/memory differentiation is programmed due to higher reactivity towards self-MHC molecules in the thymus, as stated in the title.

(2) Flow cytometry data needs to be revisited for the gating strategy, biological controls and interpretation.

(3) Evidence linking CD5 hi cells to more effector phenotype using gene enrichment scores is very weak.

(4) Experiments done in this study did not address why CD5 hi T cells could be negatively regulated in NOD mice when PTPN22 is overexpressed resulting in protection from diabetes but the same cannot be achieved in NOD8.3 mice.

(5) Experimental evidence provided to show that PTPN22 overexpression does not regulate TCR signaling in NOD8.3 T cells is weak.

(6) TCR sequencing analysis does not conclusively show that CD5 hi population is linked with autoreactive T cells. Doing single-cell RNAseq and TCR seq analysis would have helped address this question.

(7) When analysing data from CD5 hi T cells from the pancreatic lymph node, it is difficult to discriminate if the phenotype is just because of T cells that would have just encountered the cognate antigen in the draining lymph node or if it is truly due to basal TCR signaling.

Author response:

The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

Public Reviews:

Review #1 (Public review):

Figures 1 through 4 contain data that largely recapitulate published findings (Fulton et al., 2015; Lee et al., 2024; Swee et al., 2016; Dong et al., 2021); it is noted that there is value in confirming phenotypic differences between naive CD5lo and CD5hi CD8 T cells in the NOD background. It is important to contextualize the data while being wary of making parallels with results obtained from CD5lo and CD5hi CD4 T cells. There should also be additional attention paid to the wording in the text describing the data (e.g., the authors assert that, in Figure 4C, the “CD5hi group exhibited higher percentages of CD8+ T cells producing TNF-α, IFN-γ and IL-2” though there is no difference in IL-2 nor consistent differences in TNF-α between the CD5lo and CD5hi population^hi CD8⁺ and CD5^loCD8⁺ T cells have been previously characterized in other genetic backgrounds. In our study, we aimed to confirm and extend these observations specifically in the autoimmune-prone NOD background, which had not been systematically addressed. Additionally, we carefully reviewed the text describing Figure 4C and revised the wording to accurately reflect the observed data (line 263-264). Specifically, we now state that the CD5^hi group exhibited higher levels of IFN-γ and a trend toward increased TNF-α, while IL-2 production did not show a significant difference.

The comparison of CD5 across thymocyte populations is cautioned due to variation in developmental stages, particularly in transgenic models. The reported differences may reflect maturation stages rather than self-reactivity.

We appreciate the reviewer’s important point regarding the interpretation of CD5 levels across thymocyte subsets. In our revised manuscript (lines 455–471), we have added clarification that CD5 expression in DN and DP subsets reflects pre-TCR and TCR signaling events during thymic development. We also acknowledge that differences in maturation stages, especially in the NOD8.3 transgenic model, may influence CD5 expression. We now discuss this caveat and interpret our results with caution, particularly emphasizing that our data support but do not sufficiently define their differential self-reactivity.

The conclusion that PTPN22 overexpression does not inhibit the diabetogenic potential of CD5^hiCD8⁺ T cells is potentially confounded by differences between polyclonal and TCR transgenic systems.

We thank the reviewer for raising this concern. We acknowledge that this system introduces confounders due to differences in precursor frequencies and clonal expansion compared to polyclonal repertoires. These differences may affect the responsiveness to phosphatase-mediated attenuation of signaling. Therefore, while our results support that high-affinity autoreactive CD8⁺ T cells may be less sensitive to PTPN22 overexpression, we do not claim that this finding generalizes to all autoreactive CD8⁺ T cells. Rather, it highlights a potential inability of peripheral tolerance in T cells with strong intrinsic self-reactivity.

TCR sequencing data shows variability; is this representative of the overall repertoire?

We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. We acknowledge that data from bulk TCR sequencing has potential limitations, including variability across experiments and limited resolution at the clonotype level. To improve representativeness and reduce sampling bias, we performed TCR repertoire analysis in two independent experiments. In each experiment, naïve CD5^hi CD8⁺ and CD5^loCD8⁺ T cells were sorted from pooled peripheral lymph nodes of at least 20 individual NOD mice per group. This approach allowed us to capture a broader range of clonotypes and ensured that the resulting repertoire profiles reflect the characteristics of the overall CD5^hi and CD5^lo populations, rather than isolated outliers. Despite some variability, we observed consistent trends in key features, such as shorter CDR3β length, altered TRAV/TRBV usage and reduced diversity in the CD5^hi subset across both experiments. To enhance resolution and directly assess clonotype-specific reactivity, we plan to perform single-cell RNA and TCR sequencing in future studies, as noted in the revised Discussion (lines 466–471).

Clarifications are requested regarding naive gating, controls, gMFI reporting, and missing methods.

We thank the reviewer for these specific suggestions. We have revised figure legends to better describe gating strategies and included appropriate controls in Figures or Supplementary Figures. Regarding gMFI reporting, we have now shown in the figure legends whether values are reported as gMFI. Additionally, we have added the missing methods for cytokine staining, EdU incorporation, overlapped count matrix construction and TCR repertoire diversity metrics.

Review #2 (Public review):

Summary Comment:

The study is nicely performed, but the definition of naive T cells using only CD44 and CD62L may be oversimplified. CD5hi naive T cells express higher CD44 than CD5lo cells.

We thank the reviewer for the critical evaluation and thoughtful comment. As noted, we defined naïve CD8⁺ T cells using a well-established gating strategy based on CD44^lo and CD62L^hi expression, consistent with previous studies (Immunity. 2010; 32(2):214–26; Nat Immunol. 2015; 16(1):107–17). We acknowledge that CD44 is expressed along a continuum, and indeed, within the naïve gate, CD5^hi CD8⁺ T cells exhibited slightly higher CD44 levels compared to their CD5^lo counterparts. However, both subsets remained well below the CD44 expression observed in conventional effector/memory CD8⁺ T cells, supporting their classification as naïve. To further validate this, we assessed additional markers associated with activation and memory differentiation, including CD69, PD-1, KLRG1 and CD25. These analyses confirmed that the sorted CD5^hi and CD5^lo populations retained a phenotypically naïve profile while exhibiting meaningful differences in baseline activation readiness (Figure 1F).

Review #3 (Public review):

CD5 can be regulated by peripheral signals. Therefore, it cannot be concluded that predisposition to effector/memory differentiation is solely programmed in the thymus.

We thank the reviewer for this important point. We agree that CD5 expression can be dynamically regulated in the periphery by tonic TCR signals and antigen encounter, as also reflected in our own data that cells with high CD5 level display elevated activation potential upon encountering antigen (e.g., Figure 3L). To minimize the confounding effects of pre-existing peripheral activation, we performed an adoptive T cell transfer experiment (Figure 4). In this experiment, naïve CD5^hiCD⁺and CD5^loCD8⁺T cells were sorted from the peripheral lymph nodes of young (6–8-week-old) prediabetic NOD mice and transferred into NOD Rag1^–/– recipients. After 4 weeks, we compared the disease phenotypes and functional profiles of CD8⁺ T cells from these two groups. This approach allowed us to evaluate the stability and differentiation capacity of CD5^hi versus CD5^lo cells in a lymphopenic environment, while excluding the possibility that the observed differences were due to already activated CD8⁺T cells at the time of isolation. We have revised the Discussion (lines 440–450) to acknowledge these experimental limitations and clarify that, while our findings demonstrate functional differences between CD5^hiCD8⁺ and CD5^loCD8⁺T cells, we cannot fully exclude contributions from peripheral influences.

Experiments do not explain why PTPN22 overexpression protects in polyclonal T cells but not in NOD8.3 mice.

We appreciate this critical comment. Our findings support that autoreactive T cells with high-affinity TCRs as in NOD8.3 mice receive strong signaling that even PTPN22 overexpression is insufficient to attenuate their activation and effector function. We acknowledge that further mechanistic studies are needed to fully elucidate the differential effects of PTPN22 in polyclonal versus TCR-transgenic settings.

Evidence that PTPN22 does not regulate TCR signaling in NOD8.3 T cells is weak.

We thank the reviewer for this critical comment. Our data show that NOD8.3 T cells with an intrinsic high CD5-associated self-reactivity are more resistant to transgenic Pep-mediated change in the phosphorylation status of TCR signaling molecules CD3ζ and Erk and CD5 expression (Figure 6, B-D). However, we agree that additional functional assays would strengthen this conclusion.

TCR sequencing does not conclusively link CD5hi cells with autoreactivity; single-cell analysis is needed.

We agree with this critical comment. Bulk TCR sequencing revealed repertoire features associated with autoreactivity, but cannot definitively link specific TCRs to function. We have acknowledged this in the discussion (lines 466–471) and highlighted plans to perform single-cell analysis.

CD5hi cells in the PLNs may reflect antigen exposure rather than basal signaling.

We thank the reviewer for this insightful comment. As also noted in Figure 3L, CD5 expression can be influenced by peripheral tonic TCR signals and recent antigen exposure. To minimize the contribution of peripheral activation, we particularly characterized naïve CD8⁺T cells isolated from the peripheral lymph nodes of young (6–8-week-old) prediabetic NOD mice before the onset of overt autoimmunity. Furthermore, we performed an adoptive transfer experiment (Figure 4) using sorted naïve CD5^hiCD8⁺ and CD5^loCD8⁺T cells from these mice and characterized their disease phenotype after 4 weeks in lymphopenic NOD Rag1^–/– recipients and evaluated the effector function of CD8⁺T cells. This approach allowed us to compare the differentiation potential of these subsets in a controlled setting, independent of their activation status at the time of isolation. We have revised the Discussion (lines 440–450) to emphasize that, while our data support functional differences between CD5^hiCD8⁺ and CD5^loCD8⁺T cells, we cannot fully exclude the role of peripheral cues in shaping CD5 expression.

Provide proper gating controls and representative flow plots.

We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have revised figure legends to better describe gating strategies and included representative flow cytometry plots and appropriate gating controls in Figures or Supplementary Figures.

Recommendations for the authors:

Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The authors):

(1) The figure presentation is inconsistent and the labels/font are often too small to read easily.

As Reviewer suggested, the figure presentation has been revised for consistency. Labels and fonts have been adjusted for improved readability. Specific figures that were difficult to read have been reformatted with larger fonts and clearer legends.

(2) A careful review of the text to ensure clarity of the content is suggested (e.g., “gratitude” at line 91, “were generally lied” at line 123).

Thanks for Reviewer’s comments. The text has been carefully reviewed for clarity and grammatical accuracy. Corrections have been made, including changing “gratitude” to “magnitude” (line 47) and “were generally lied” to “fell between” (line 79).

Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

(1) The definition of naïve T cells based solely on CD44low and CD62Lhigh staining may be oversimplistic. Indeed, even within this definition, naïve CD5high CD8 T cells express much higher levels of CD44 than CD5low CD8 T cells.

Thanks for Reviewer’s comments. We used a literature-supported gating strategy (Immunity. 2010; 32(2):214–26; Nat Immunol. 2015; 16(1):107–17) to define naïve T cells based on CD44^low and CD62L^high expression. It is important to note that CD44 expression exists along a continuum. While we were initially surprised to observe that CD5^loCD8⁺T cells expressed relatively higher levels of CD44 than CD5^loCD8⁺T cells within the naïve gate, both populations still exhibited significantly lower CD44 expression compared to conventional effector/memory CD8⁺T cells. To further validate the distinction between CD5^hi and CD5 subsets, we also examined additional markers such as CD69, PD1, KLRG1 and CD25, which supported their phenotypic differences within the naïve compartment (Figure 1F).

(2) Figure 1G should show the proportion of IGRP-tetramer+ in the three groups of CD8 T cells. Additionally, it would be useful to assess reactivity against a pool of other islet autoantigens using a similar strategy.

As suggested by the reviewer, the revised manuscript now includes additional data showing the proportion of IGRP-tetramer+ cells (Supplementary Figure 1D), as well as reactivity against another islet autoantigen, insulin-1/insulin-2 (Insulin B15–23) (Supplementary Figure 1E). The description of these results, including the proportions of IGRP-tetramer⁺ and Insulin B15–23⁺ CD8⁺Tcells, has been added to lines 126–129 of the revised manuscript.

(3) The resolution of Figure 2 is suboptimal and at places poorly visible. Figure 2D is stated to show “two significant pathways stand out.” In fact, the data are barely significant, and the authors may want to correct their statement.

The resolution of Figure 2 has been improved. As Reviewer suggested, the text has been revised to state “two potential pathways stand out” (line 187) instead of “two significant pathways stand out”.

(4) Figure 3C-F and 3H, showing fold change over baseline values would be much easier for the reader to grasp the data.

As Reviewer suggested, data in Figures 3C-F and 3H now are shown in fold change over baseline values for clarity. Baseline gMFI is the mean of each group (total CD⁺ , CD5^hiCD8⁺ and CD5^loCD8⁺) at 0 μg/ml anti-CD3, with fold changes calculated for stimulation conditions (0.625-10 μg/ml anti-CD3). The figure legend has been updated accordingly.

(5) Figure 4A, it would be much more valuable to show the diabetes frequency upon transfer of CD25- CD4 T cells alone and upon transfer of CD5high CD8 T cells alone. The word “spontaneous” in the Figure 4A legend seems inappropriate.

Thanks for the Reviewer’s comment. We apologize for not including the data for the CD25 CD4⁺ T cell transfer group in the original manuscript. While this group was part of our initial experimental design, we had considered it a control group and unintentionally omitted it from the figure. The revised manuscript now includes this group in Figure 4A. In addition, the term “spontaneous” has been replaced with “diabetes incidence” in the Figure 4A legend and manuscript (line 248). Regarding the suggestion to assess CD5^hiCD8⁺T cells transfer alone, we appreciate the Reviewer’s point. However, previous studies have shown that CD8⁺ T cells alone are not effective and sufficient to induce diabetes in adoptive transfer models, and that effective β-cell destruction typically requires both CD4⁺ and CD8⁺ T cell subsets. For instance, Christianson et al. (1993) demonstrated that enriched CD8⁺ T cells from NOD mice fail to transfer diabetes on their own, while CD4⁺ T cells—particularly from diabetic donors—can induce disease only under specific conditions and are significantly potentiated by co-transfer of CD8⁺cells. These findings have contributed to the widely available standard of co-transferring both subsets when studying diabetogenic potential in NOD models (Diabetes. 1993;42(1):44–55).

(6) Line 257-258, please remove “indicating superior in vivo proliferation by the CD5hi subset.” Indeed, several other possibilities may explain the phenotype, including survival, migration, etc.

As Reviewer suggested, the phrase “indicating superior in vivo proliferation by the CD5^hi subset” has been replaced with “implying increased expansion and activation/effector potential” (line 261).

(7) Figure 5A, it is unclear to this referee what is the significance of CD5 and pCD3zeta expression on DN thymocytes. Do these cells express rearranged alpha/beta TCR? Is it signaling through pre-TCRalpha/TCRbeta pairs?

Thanks a lot for this important question. In the revised manuscript, we have expanded the discussion (line 455–471) to address the developmental significance of CD5 and pCD3ζ expression on DN thymocytes. CD5 expression at this stage reflects pre-TCR signaling strength during early selection, which occurs following successful TCRβ rearrangement. The associated phosphorylation of CD3ζ indicates activation of downstream signaling through the pre-TCRα/TCRβ complex. As discussed in the revised text, these early signals play a critical role in determining lineage progression and self-reactivity tuning. We now acknowledge that signaling at the DN stage occurs through the pre-TCRα/TCRβ heterodimer, not a fully rearranged αβ TCR, and that CD5 expression serves as a marker of the strength of these initial pre-selection signals (Sci Signal. 2022;15(736):eabj9842.). These developmental checkpoints are essential for calibrating TCR sensitivity and ensuring proper thymocyte maturation. This has been clarified in the revised discussion (line 455–471).

(8) Figure 5F, could the DP TCRbeta- CD69- thymocytes from 8.3-TCR NOD mice already express low levels of the self-reactive TCR at this stage to explain their high expression of CD5? Addressing the question experimentally would be useful.

Thanks a lot for this useful comment. According to a review by Huseby et al. (2022), expression of a functional TCRβ chain begins at the DN3 stage, initiating progression through the β-selection checkpoint. This is followed by TRAV locus recombination, resulting in the generation of αβ TCR-expressing double-positive 1 (DP-1) thymocytes. At the DP-1 stage, the quality of TCR signaling driven by self-pMHC interactions governs both positive and negative selection, as well as the development of nonconventional T cell lineages. We hypothesize that in transgenic NOD8.3 mice, which express pre-rearranged Tcra and Tcrb transgenes derived from the islet-reactive CD8⁺T cell clone NY8.3, thymocytes undergo allelic exclusion and lack the clonal diversity seen in non-transgenic mice. As a result, NOD8.3 thymocytes may receive strong TCR signals from early developmental stages (DN3 and DP-1) even without undergoing normal selection checkpoints. While the elevated TCR signal observed in NOD8.3 is indeed artificial, this model provides a unique system to test our hypothesis—namely, whether a strongly self-reactive TCR can generate high basal signaling during thymic development that overrides the negative regulatory effects of phosphatases like Pep. This possibility has been acknowledged in the revised Discussion section, along with a plan to validate the hypothesis experimentally (line 455–471).

(9) Figure 7, single-cell TCR-seq would be much more appropriate to tackle the question of self-reactivity of CD5hi vs. CD5low CD8 T cells.

Thanks a lot for this useful comment. The limitations of bulk TCR-seq are acknowledged, and single-cell TCR-seq is proposed as a future direction (line 455–471).

Note, for Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors) (7) (8) (9), the discussion paragraphs are included to address the reviewers’ questions (line 455–471).

Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

(1) Positive controls (activated T cells from PLN or spleen), gating controls (whole naïve T cells), and representative flow-cytometry plots are needed for T-bet, EOMES, GzmB, and cytokine staining in Figure 1.

As Reviewer suggested, we added representative gating controls for T-bet, EOMES, GzmB and cytokine staining in Supplementary Figure 1 of revised manuscript.

(2) For Figure 1F, MFI for activation markers for the CD44hiCD62Llo cells should be provided for the comparison of PLN data.

As Reviewer suggested, MFI data for these markers have been included in Figure 1F of revised manuscript.

(3) In many places and figure legends, it is not mentioned from which organ cells were collected, i.e., spleen or PLN.

As Reviewer suggested, the origin of cells for each experiment has been explicitly indicated in the figure legends or figure content to ensure clarity.

(4) In the pancreatic lymph node, autoreactive T cells might be upregulating CD5 because they are encountering antigens. This should be addressed in the discussion.

As Reviewer suggested, this issue has been included in the discussion of revised manuscript (line 440-450).

(5) It is not clear if T cells from the spleen and PLN were stimulated to detect the production of pro-inflammatory cytokines.

Thanks for the critical comment. The stimulation protocol and cytokine staining method have been added to the Supplementary material’s Supplementary methods section Cytokine staining in revised manuscript.

(6) Figure 4C-D: It is not clear if analysis was done on naïve T cells or if they were stimulated.

Thanks for the comment. Additionally, the stimulation and cytokine staining methods used in Figure 4C-D have been described in detail in the Supplementary Materials section Cytokine staining of revised manuscript.

(7) IGRP gating in Figure 4F should be revisited with negative controls.

Thanks for the critical comment. Negative controls have been added and used to adjust IGRP gating, and this is now mentioned in the figure legend of revised manuscript.

(8) Interpretation that only CD5hi cells form a central memory T cell population (Figure 4F) could be misleading.

Thanks for this valuable comment. We agree with that in conventional CD8⁺ T cell immune responses, both CD5^hi and CD5^lo subsets have the potential to differentiate into central memory T cells. In our experimental approach, we adoptively transferred sorted CD5^hiCD8⁺ or CD5^loCD8⁺cells into Rag1^-/- recipients and specifically analyzed PLNs four weeks after transfer. Using CD44 and CD62L expression as conventional markers for central memory T cells, we barely observed a CD44^hiCD62L^hi population in CD5^loCD8⁺transferred group. Based on these results, we stated: “This analysis underscores that the central memory T cell population and the frequency of islet autoantigen-specific CD8⁺T cells are higher in the CD5^hi transferred subset within the PLNs, implying more robust immune responses initiated by the CD5^hicells” (line 272–274). Importantly, we did not intend to imply that only CD5^hi cells can form central memory T cells, but rather that they were more enriched for this phenotype under the specific conditions and time point analyzed. 

(9) IL-2 gating representative plot should be provided for Figure 5A.

As Reviewer suggested, a representative IL-2 gating plot has been included in the revised Supplementary Figure 3B.

Indicates the change in the focus of the chapter from the big picture approach to examining events, which took longer to write.

Carthage, having lost the First Punic War, began to strengthen its position in Spain. Rome, although expanding, still had Carthage reigning over most of the West Mediterranean.

Carthage at this point was a strong trading empire that extended to the Mediterranean. When mercenaries occupied the city of Messina in Sicily and asked for their assistance, Rome decided to involve itself in the conflict despite this action causing them to enter areas outside Italy.

Zeno of Citium was born in 334 BCE in Cyprus. In about 300 BCE, he started the Stoic school in Athens. Zeno was a wealthy businessman whose money was lost during a shipwreck.

the kingdom lasted 335 years and came to an end because of the Roman conquest that took place because Queen Cleopatra VII joined a Roman civil war.

Jesus was crucified for being known as the ‘King of the Jews, which was a punishment for slaves or rebels by the Romans. It was a common act in which thousands to as many as 100,000 people were subjected to this punishment; for instance, the followers of Spartacus.

His grand-nephew, Octavian, came back to Rome at the age of 18, adopted the name Caesar, and soon amassed an army. This resulted in a power-sharing arrangement with some of Caesar’s followers, who were named the Second Triumvirate.

He had been captured by the Xiongnu for ten years, but he managed to escape and accomplish the journey, covering more than 12,000 miles. He returned to China in 126BCE with atlases, foreign products, and information about the territories beyond the Pamir Mountains.

China culture, such as Confucianism, Daoism, and writing, existed in both the south and the north. The Eastern Jin dynasty continued Han administrative practices, such as the Nine-Rank System on how to select officials.

The Sasanian Empire began in the year 224 CE when Ardashir I overthrew the Parthian Empire under the claim that he was a successor to the previous Achaemenid rulers. He founded a strong centralized state, which was headquartered at Ctesiphon near present-day Baghdad

The above quote implies that the new religion was intended to form communities and welcomed all people, whether they were free or slaves.

This quote reveals that the five pillars of Islam came as a result of following the teachings of the prophet, belief in God, performing five prayers a day, fasting in Ramadan, giving charity, and if possible, going for a pilgrimage.

After fighting for about 20 years, the Sasanian Empire in Persia was overrun by Muslim armies in the year 651. The attack on Persia was earlier, in the year 633, under Abu Bakr."

In other cities like Rome and Ravenna, the plague resulted in the death of 40% of the population, and rural areas saw the death of up to 20% of the population. Deaths of this nature, together with the effect of the war with the Goths, give some truth to the fact that the Italian population could have lost half its numbers in the 540s.

This quote indicates that the 10% tax to the Church was used to finance the construction of schools, libraries, and scriptoria, where the copies were made. The Carolingian tradition and legal system spread to Western Europe.

In 788, Charlemagne overran Bavaria, and by the early 790s, he had enlarged his empire to include territories around the Danube River, which were under the rulership of the Avar Khaganate, a great empire from northeastern Asia.

The regions of North India were split up into small kingdoms which frequently warred amongst each other, while the Chola Empire in the South expanded, dominating regions such as Sri Lanka and the surrounding islands.

The phrase means that there was a great deal of art and culture, excellent paintings, poems, ceramics, and books, and people were appreciating the best works of the bygone era.

This quote indicates that Magyars, or Hungarians, originally inhabited areas to the east of the Ural Mountains, which they migrated over time to the west.

when King John died, the new regime under his young son Henry III re issued the Magna Carta in 1216, except for its most extreme clauses. This is still remembered as one of the earliest movements toward things such as the US Bill of Rights.

That Ibn Battuta, a Moroccan traveler, is very renowned for traversing 73,000 miles over a 30-year period. His destinations included Africa, Middle East, India, China, Europe, and Mali, which lies in sub Saharan Africa.

Its implies that the significance of documents such as the Magna Carta and the Charter of the Forest rose in England because more people were being educated. Before the 11th century, education was restricted to monks.

By the late 1370s, the poor wool guild workers in Florence took control of power briefly, establishing an association that helped them secure their rights. Shortly after, the ruling class regained control of power and eliminated the guild organized by the workers by killing the guild leaders.

In 1350, most farmers ceased doing the unremunerated services they owed to their lords and also disregarded some terms that tied them to their estates. This action led them to move to other locations, which included cities, in search of cheaper rentals.

Zhu allied with a rebel group known as the Red Turbans, and later on, he demonstrated leadership qualities. He was very good at strategizing and could rally people with similar backgrounds, which were poorer refugees and orphans.

Yongle realized that it was necessary for China to interact with the rest of the world. His father cared only for what was going on in China, but Yongle wanted the situation to change. He promoted travel, trade, and interactions with the outside world.

rather than being swept up by your thoughts and emotions you just let go of the control and you start to observe them

allowing yourself to fully experience a phenomenon without avoiding in. facing your fears

kinda like only remembering the fact that we won a competition and not that sth challenging happened that day

focalism

j'enlèverais ce type de question rhétorique dans ce cadre. Dis plutôt: Notre communication portera sur les interrogations...

In the battle that ensued after the death of Caesar, Brutus fought Octavian, and Cassius battled Antony. Brutus and Cassius took their own lives. Antony showed respect to Brutus when he covered him with a purple cloth, considering that Brutus was one of those who ensured that Antony was not harmed when they conspired to kill Caesar.

eLife Assessment

This important study demonstrates that in Drosophila melanogaster, tachykinin (Tk) expression is regulated by the microbiota. The authors present convincing evidence that axenic flies raised with no microbiota are longer-lived than conventionally reared animals, and that Tk expression and Tk receptors in the nervous system are required for this effect. They further test individual bacterial strains for their role in these effects and connect the effect to loss of lipid stores and suggest that FOXO may be involved in the phenotype, results that are of interest to the fields of environmental perception, host microbiome interactions, and geroscience.

[Editors' note: this paper was reviewed by Review Commons.]

Reviewer #1 (Public review):

Summary:

In this study the authors use a Drosophila model to demonstrate that Tachykinin (Tk) expression is regulated by the microbiota. In Drosophila conventionally reared (CR) flies are typically shorter lived than those raised without a microbiota (axenic). Here, knockdown of Tk expression is found to prevent lifespan shortening by the microbiota and the reduction of lipid stores typically seen in CR flies when compared to axenic counterparts. It does so without reducing food intake or fecundity which are often seen as necessary trade-offs for lifespan extension. Further, the strength of the interaction between Tk and the microbiota is found to be bacteria specific and is stronger in Acetobacter pomorum (Ap) mono-associated flies compared to Levilactobacillus brevis (Lb) mono-association. The impact on lipid storage was also only apparent in Ap-flies.

Building on these findings the authors show that gut specific knockdown is largely sufficient to explain these phenotypes. Knockdown of the Tk receptor, TkR99D, in neurons recapitulates the lifespan phenotype of intestinal Tk knockdown supporting a model whereby Tk from the gut signals to TkR99D expressing neurons to regulate lifespan. In addition, the authors show that FOXO may have a role in lifespan regulation by the Tk-microbiota interaction. However, they rule out a role for insulin producing cells or Akh-producing cells suggesting the microbiota-Tk interaction regulates lifespan through other, yet unidentified, mechanisms.

Major comments:

Overall, I find the key conclusions of the paper convincing. The authors present an extensive amount of experimental work, and their conclusions are well founded in the data. In particular, the impact of TkRNAi on lifespan and lipid levels, the central finding in this study, has been demonstrated multiple times in different experiments and using different genetic tools. As a result, I don't feel that additional experimental work is necessary to support the current conclusions.

However, I find it hard to assess the robustness of the lifespan data from the other manipulations used (TkR99DRNAi, TkRNAi in dFoxo mutants etc.) because information on the population size and whether these experiments have been replicated is lacking. Can the authors state in the figure legends the numbers of flies used for each lifespan and whether replicates have been done? For all other data it is clear how many replicates have been done, and the methods give enough detail for all experiments to be reproduced.

Significance:

Overall, I find the key conclusions of the paper convincing. The authors present an extensive amount of experimental work, and their conclusions are well founded in the data. We have known that the microbiota influence lifespan for some time but the mechanisms by which they do so have remained elusive. This study identifies one such mechanism and as a result opens several avenues for further research. The Tk-microbiota interaction is shown to be important for both lifespan and lipid homeostasis, although it's clear these are independent phenotypes. The fact that the outcome of the Tk-microbiota interaction depends on the bacterial species is of particular interest because it supports the idea that manipulation of the microbiota, or specific aspects of the host-microbiota interaction, may have therapeutic potential.

These findings will be of interest to a broad readership spanning host-microbiota interactions and their influence on host health. They move forward the study of microbial regulation of host longevity and have relevance to our understanding of microbial regulation of host lipid homeostasis. They will also be of significant interest to those studying the mechanisms of action and physiological roles of Tachykinins.

Field of expertise: Drosophila, gut, ageing, microbiota, innate immunity

Reviewer #2 (Public review):

Summary:

The main finding of this work is that microbiota impacts lifespan though regulating the expression of a gut hormone (Tk) which in turn acts on its receptor expressed on neurons. This conclusion is robust and based on a number of experimental observations, carefully using techniques in fly genetics and physiology: 1) microbiota regulates Tk expression, 2) lifespan reduction by microbiota is absent when Tk is knocked down in gut (specifically in the EEs), 3) Tk knockdown extends lifespan and this is recapitulated by knockdown of a Tk receptor in neurons. These key conclusions are very convincing. Additional data are presented detailing the relationship between Tk and insulin/IGF signalling and Akh in this context. These are two other important endocrine signalling pathways in flies. The presentation and analysis of the data are excellent.

There are only a few experiments or edits that I would suggest as important to confirm or refine the conclusions of this manuscript. These are:

(1) When comparing the effects of microbiota (or single bacterial species) in different genetic backgrounds or experimental conditions, I think it would be good to show that the bacterial levels are not impacted by the other intervention(s). For example, the lifespan results observed in Figure 2A are consistent with Tk acting downstream of the microbes but also with Tk RNAi having an impact on the microbiota itself. I think this simple, additional control could be done for a few key experiments. Similarly, the authors could compare the two bacterial species to see if the differences in their effects come from different ability to colonise the flies.

(2) The effect of Tk RNAi on TAG is opposite in CR and Ax or CR and Ap flies, and the knockdown shows an effect in either case (Figure 2E, Figure 3D). Why is this? Better clarification is required.

(3) With respect to insulin signalling, all the experiments bar one indicate that insulin is mediating the effects of Tk. The one experiment that does not is using dilpGS to knock down TkR99D. Is it possible that this driver is simply not resulting in an efficient KD of the receptor? I would be inclined to check this, but as a minimum I would be a bit more cautious with the interpretation of these data.

(4) Is it possible to perform at least one lifespan repeat with the other Tk RNAi line mentioned? This would further clarify that there are no off-target effects that can account for the phenotypes.

There are a few other experiments that I could suggest as I think they could enrich the current manuscript, but I do not believe they are essential for publication:

(5) The manuscript could be extended with a little more biochemical/cell biology analysis. For example, is it possible to look at Tk protein levels, Tk levels in circulation, or even TkR receptor activation or activation of its downstream signalling pathways? Comparing Ax and CR or Ap and CR one would expect to find differences consistent with the model proposed. This would add depth to the genetic analysis already conducted. Similarly, for insulin signalling - would it be possible to use some readout of the pathway activity and compare between Ax and CR or Ap and CR?

(6) The authors use a pan-acetyl-K antibody but are specifically interested in acetylated histones. Would it be possible to use antibodies for acetylated histones? This would have the added benefit that one can confirm the changes are not in the levels of histones themselves.

(7) I think the presentation of the results could be tightened a bit, with fewer sections and one figure per section.

Significance:

The main contribution of this manuscript is the identification of a mechanism that links the microbiota to lifespan. This is very exciting and topical for several reasons:

(1) The microbiota is very important for overall health but it is still unclear how. Studying the interaction between microbiota and health is an emerging, growing field, and one that has attracted a lot of interest, but one that is often lacking in mechanistic insight. Identifying mechanisms provides opportunities for therapies. The main impact of this study comes from using the fruit fly to identify a mechanism.

(2) It is very interesting that the authors focus on an endocrine mechanism, especially with the clear clinical relevance of gut hormones to human health recently demonstrated with new, effective therapies (e.g. Wegovy).

(3) Tk is emerging as an important fly hormone and this study adds a new and interesting dimension by placing TK between microbiota and lifespan.

I think the manuscript will be of great interest to researchers in ageing, human and animal physiology and in gut endocrinology and gut function.

Reviewer #3 (Public review):

Summary:

Marcu et al. demonstrate a gut-neuron axis that is required for the lifespan-shortening effects mediated by gut bacteria. They show that the presence of commensal bacteria-particularly Acetobacter pomorum-promotes Tk expression in the gut, which then binds to neuronal tachykinin receptors to shorten lifespan. Tk has also recently been reported to extend lifespan via adipokinetic hormone (Akh) signaling (Ahrentløv et al., Nat Metab 7, 2025), but the mechanism here appears distinct. The lifespan shortening by Ap via Tk seems to be partially dependent on foxo and independent of both insulin signaling and Akh-mediated lipid mobilization.

Although the detailed mechanistic link to lifespan is not fully resolved, the experiment and its results clearly show the involvement of the molecules tested. This work adds a valuable dimension to our growing understanding of how gut bacteria influence host longevity. However, there are some points that should be addressed.

(1) Tk+ EEC activity should be assessed directly, rather than relying solely on transcript levels. Approaches such as CaLexA or GCaMP could be used.

(2) In Line243, the manuscript states that the reporter activity was not increased in the posterior midgut. However, based on the presented results in Fig4E, there is seemingly not apparent regional specificity. A more detailed explanation is necessary.

(3) If feasible, assessing foxo activation would add mechanistic depth. This could be done by monitoring foxo nuclear localization or measuring the expression levels of downstream target genes.

(4) Fig1C uses Adh for normalization. Given the high variability of the result, the authors should (1) check whether Adh expression levels changed via bacterial association and/or (2) compare the results using different genes as internal standard.

(5) While the difficulty of maintaining lifelong axenic conditions is understandable, it may still be feasible to assess the induction of Tk (i.e.. Tk transcription or EE activity upregulation) by the microbiome on males.

(6) We also had some concerns regarding the wording of the title.<br /> Fig6B and C suggests that TkR86C, in addition to TkR99D, may be involved in the A. pomorum-lifespan interaction. Consider revising the title to refer more generally to the "tachykinin receptor" rather than only TkR99D.<br /> The difference between "aging" and "lifespan" should also be addressed. While the study shows a role for Tk in lifespan, assessment of aging phenotypes (e.g. Climbing assay, ISC proliferation) beyond the smurf assay is required to make conclusions about aging.

(7) The statement in Line 82 that EEs express 14 peptide hormones should be supported with an appropriate reference, if available.

Significance:

General assessment: The main strength of this study is the careful and extensive lifespan analyses, which convincingly demonstrate the role of gut microbiota in regulating longevity. The authors clarify an important aspect of how microbial factors contribute to lifespan control. The main limitation is that the study primarily confirms the involvement of previously reported signaling pathways, without identifying novel molecular players or previously unrecognized mechanisms of lifespan regulation.

Advance: The lifespan-shortening effect of Acetobacter pomorum (Ap) has been reported previously, as has the lifespan-shortening effect of Tachykinin (Tk). However, this study is the first to link these two factors mechanistically, which represents a significant and original contribution to the field. The advance is primarily mechanistic, providing new insight into how microbial cues converge on host signaling pathways to influence ageing.

Audience: This work will be of particular interest to a specialized audience of basic researchers in ageing biology. It will also attract interest from microbiome researchers who are investigating host-microbe interactions and their physiological consequences. The findings will be useful as a conceptual framework for future mechanistic studies in this area.

Field of expertise: Drosophila ageing, lifespan, microbiome, metabolism

Author response:

(1) General Statements

The goal of our study was to mechanistically connect microbiota to host longevity. We have done so using a combination of genetic and physiological experiments, which outline a role for a neuroendocrine relay mediated by the intestinal neuropeptide Tachykinin, and its receptor TkR99D in neurons. We also show a requirement for these genes in metabolic and healthspan effects of microbiota.

The referees' comments suggest they find the data novel and technically sound. We have added data in response to numerous points, which we feel enhance the manuscript further, and we have clarified text as requested. Reviewer #3 identified an error in Figure 4, which we have rectified. We felt that some specific experiments suggested in review would not add significant further depth, as we articulate below.

Altogether our reviewers appear to agree that our manuscript makes a significant contribution to both the microbiome and ageing fields, using a large number of experiments to mechanistically outline the role(s) of various pathways and tissues. We thank the reviewers for their positive contributions to the publication process.

(2) Description of the planned revisions

Reviewer #2:

Not…essential for publication…is it possible to look at Tk protein levels?

We have acquired a small amount of anti-TK antibody and we will attempt to immunostain guts associated with A. pomorum and L. brevis. We are also attempting the equivalent experiment in mouse colon reared with/without a defined microbiota. These experiments are ongoing, but we note that the referee feels that the manuscript is a publishable unit whether these stainings succeed or not.

(3) Description of the revisions that have already been incorporated in the transferred manuscript

Reviewer #1:

Can the authors state in the figure legends the numbers of flies used for each lifespan and whether replicates have been done?

We have incorporated the requested information into legends for lifespan experiments.

Do the interventions shorten lifespan relative to the axenic cohort? Or do they prevent lifespan extension by axenic conditions? Both statements are valid, and the authors need to be consistent in which one they use to avoid confusing the reader.

We read these statements differently. The only experiment in which a genetic intervention prevented lifespan extension by axenic conditions is neuronal TkR86C knockdown (Figure 6B-C). Otherwise, microbiota shortened lifespan relative to axenic conditions, and genetic knockdowns extend blocked this effect (e.g. see lines 131-133). We have ensured that the framing is consistent throughout, with text edited at lines 198-199, 298-299, 311-312, 345-347, 407-408, 424-425, 450, 497-503.

TkRNAi consistently reduces lipid levels in axenic flies (Figs 2E, 3D), essentially phenocopying the loss of lipid stores seen in control conventionally reared (CR) flies relative to control axenic. This suggests that the previously reported role of Tk in lipid storage - demonstrated through increased lipid levels in TkRNAi flies (Song et al (2014) Cell Rep 9(1): 40) - is dependent on the microbiota. In the absence of the microbiota TkRNAi reduces lipid levels. The lack of acknowledgement of this in the text is confusing

We have added text at lines 219-222 to address this point. We agree that this effect is hard to interpret biologically, since expressing RNAi in axenics has no additional effect on Tk expression (Figure S7). Consequently we can only interpret this unexpected effect as a possible off-target effect of RU feeding on TAG, specific to axenic flies. However, this possibility does not void our conclusion, because an off-target dimunition of TAG cannot explain why CR flies accumulate TAG following Tk^RNAi induction. We hope that our added text clarifies.

I have struggled to follow the authors logic in ablating the IPCs and feel a clear statement on what they expected the outcome to be would help the reader.

We have added the requested statement at lines 423-424, explaining that we expected the IPC ablation to render flies constitutively long-lived and non-responsive to A pomorum.

Can the authors clarify their logic in concluding a role for insulin signalling, and qualify this conclusion with appropriate consideration of alternative hypotheses?

We have added our logic at lines 449-454. In brief, we conclude involvement for insulin signalling because FoxO mutant lifespan does not respond to Tk^RNAi, and diminishes the lifespan-shortening effect of A. pomorum. However, we cannot state that the effects are direct because we do not have data that mechanistically connects Tk/TkR99D signalling directly in insulin-producing cells. The current evidence is most consistent with insulin signalling priming responses to microbiota/Tk/TkR99D, as per the newly-added text.

Typographical errors

We have remedied the highlighted errors, at lines 128-140.

Reviewer #2:

it would be good to show that the bacterial levels are not impacted [by TkRNAi]

We have quantified CFUs in CR flies upon ubiquitous TkRNAi (Figure S5), finding that the RNAi does not affect bacterial load. New text at lines 138-139 articulates this point.

The effect of Tk RNAi on TAG is opposite in CR and Ax or CR and Ap flies, and the knockdown shows an effect in either case (Figure 2E, Figure 3D). Why is this?

As per response to Reviewer #1, we have added text at lines 219-222 to address this point.

Is it possible to perform at least one lifespan repeat with the other Tk RNAi line mentioned?

We have added another experiment showing longevity upon knockdown in conventional flies, using an independent TkRNAi line (Figure S3).

Reviewer #3:

In Line243, the manuscript states that the reporter activity was not increased in the posterior midgut. However, based on the presented results in Fig4E, there is seemingly not apparent regional specificity. A more detailed explanation is necessary.

We thank the reviewer sincerely for their keen eye, which has highlighted an error in the previous version of the figure. In revisiting this figure we have noticed, to our dismay, that the figures for GFP quantification were actually re-plots of the figures for (ac)K quantification. This error led to the discrepancy between statistics and graphics, which thankfully the reviewer noticed. We have revised the figure to remedy our error, and the statistics now match the boxplots and results text.

Fig1C uses Adh for normalization. Given the high variability of the result, the authors should (1) check whether Adh expression levels changed via bacterial association

We selected Adh on the basis of our RNAseq analysis, which showed it was not different between AX and CV guts, whereas many commonly-used “housekeeping” genes were. We have now added a plot to demonstrate (Figure S2).

The statement in Line 82 that EEs express 14 peptide hormones should be supported with an appropriate reference

We have added the requested reference (Hung et al, 2020) at line 86.

(4) Description of analyses that authors prefer not to carry out

Reviewer #1:

I'd encourage the authors to provide lifespan plots that enable comparison between all conditions

We have avoided this approach because the number of survival curves that would need to be presented on the same axis (e.g. 16 for Figure 5) is not legible. However we have ensured that axes on faceted plots are equivalent and with grid lines for comparison. Moreover, our approach using statistical coefficients (EMMs) enables direct quantitative comparison of the differences among conditions.

Reviewer #2:

Is it possible that this driver is simply not resulting in an efficient KD of the receptor? I would be inclined to check this

This comment relates to Figure 7G. We do see an effect of the knockdown in this experiment, so we believe that the knockdown is effective. However the direction of response is not consistent with our hypothesis so the experiment is not informative about the role of these cells. We therefore feel there is little to be gained by testing efficacy of knockdown, which would also be technically challenging because the cells are a small population in a larger tissue which expresses the same transcripts elsewhere (i.e. necessitating FISH).

Would it be possible to use antibodies for acetylated histones?

The comment relates to Figure 4C-E. The proposed studies would be a significant amount of work because, to our knowledge, the specific histone marks which drive activation in TK+ cells remain unknown. On the other hand, we do not see how this information would enrich the present story, rather such experiments would appear to be the beginning of something new. We therefore agree with Reviewer #1 (in cross-commenting) that this additional work is not justified.

Reviewer #3:

Tk+ EEC activity should be assessed directly, rather than relying solely on transcript levels. Approaches such as CaLexA or GCaMP could be used.

We agree with reviewers 1-2 (in cross-commenting) that this proposal is non-trivial and not justified by the additional insight that would be gained. As described above, we are attempting to immunostain Tk, which if successful will provide a third line of evidence for regulation of Tk+ cells. However we note that we already have the strongest possible evidence for a role of these cells via genetic analysis (Figure 5).

While the difficulty of maintaining lifelong axenic conditions is understandable, it may still be feasible to assess the induction of Tk (ie. Tk transcription or EE activity upregulation) by the microbiome on males.

As the reviewer recognises, maintaining axenic experiments for months on end is not trivial. Given the tendency for males either to simply mirror female responses to lifespan-extending interventions, or to not respond at all, we made the decision in our work to only study females. We have instead emphasised in the manuscript that results are from female flies.

TkR86C, in addition to TkR99D, may be involved in the A. pomorum-lifespan interaction. Consider revising the title to refer more generally to the "tachykinin receptor" rather than only TkR99D.

We disagree with this interpretation: the results do not show that TkR86C-RNAi recapitulates the effect of enteric Tk-RNAi. A potentially interesting interaction is apparent, but the data do not support a causal role for TkR86C. A causal role is supported only for TkR99D, knockdown of which recapitulates the longevity of axenic flies and Tk^RNAi flies_._ Therefore we feel that our current title is therefore justified by the data, and a more generic version would misrepresent our findings.

The difference between "aging" and "lifespan" should also be addressed.

The smurf phenotype is a well-established metric of healthspan. Moreover, lifespan is the leading aggregate measure of ageing. We therefore feel that the use of “ageing” in the title is appropriate.

If feasible, assessing foxo activation would add mechanistic depth. This could be done by monitoring foxo nuclear localization or measuring the expression levels of downstream target genes.

Foxo nuclear localisation has already been shown in axenic flies (Shin et al, 2011). We have added text and citation at lines 401-402.

That Flavius Constantius, a Roman military leader, was one of the four rulers that the Tetrarchy governed. Constantine took over when Flavius Constantius died in the year 306.

eLife Assessment

In this important manuscript, the authors establish a vertebrate model for studying the development of circuits that control heart rate. This contribution uses a combination of experimental techniques to provide compelling information for scientists looking to understand how heart rate regulation emerges during development.

Reviewer #1 (Public review):

Summary:

The manuscript by Hernandez-Nunez et al. provides a comprehensive characterization of how heart-brain circuits develop in a vertebrate brain, namely the zebrafish. The characterization is performed using a combination of modern and sophisticated imaging and neural manipulation techniques and achieves unprecedented clarity and detail in how the heart-brain communication develops early in life. The paper describes a three-stage program, where first an efferent-circuit from the motor vagus to the heart develops, followed by sympathetic innervation, and lastly sensory neurons innervate the heart.

Strengths:

The paper is very clearly and nicely written. The findings are novel and of high quality and relevance. The presentations are very clear and nicely interpreted. The analyses are well presented and applied.

Weaknesses:

From the heart rate traces, heart rate variability seems to be prominent and changes across days post-fertilization (dpf). That would be a useful dependent variable, considering that the variation captured by the models does not fully explain heart rate, both for sympathetic and parasympathetic efferents. Given the strong autorhythmicity of nodal tissue in neurogenic hearts, modulatory inputs could potentially predict heart rate variability with higher precision.

Reviewer #2 (Public review):

Hernandez-Nunez et al. investigate the development and function of neural circuits involved in the regulation of heart rate in larval zebrafish. Using conserved genetic markers, they identify neural pathways involved in the bidirectional control of heart rate and in providing sensory feedback, potentially enabling more precise tuning. The main observation is that the different elements of this circuit are laid down in a developmentally staggered manner.

At 4 days old, the heart rate is invariant to a range of sensory stimuli, and the vagal motor or sympathetic pathways could not be seen to innervate the heart. Progressively through development, the heart is first innervated by the vagal motor pathway, whose axons are cholinergic, before the formation of phox2bb+ intracardiac neurons (ICNs). At this stage, before the first ICNs are observed, activation of the vagal motor pathway by optogenetic activation of a localized population of cholinergic hindbrain neurons leads to bradycardia. After the vagal motor innervation begins, the sympathetic pathway innervates the heart, which could be visualized in the form of TH+ fibers from the anterior paravertebral ganglia (APG). The activity of the TH+ APG neurons was diverse and showed proportional, integral, and derivative-like relationships to the heart rate, suggesting a role in more precise tuning of the rate than what could be achieved through the vagal pathway alone. The sensory vagus innervation of the heart was identified to be the last stage to develop; however, neurons in the nodose ganglion exhibited diverse responses tuned to the heart rate well before the innervation reached the heart. The authors attribute this to the fact that other indirect sensory cues from the gills or vasculature could be used to sense heart rate prior to innervation.

This study identifies key components of the control loop required for the regulation of heart rate in zebrafish. The control mechanism appears to be independent of the cues that trigger heart rate changes, indicating that the circuit is indeed part of an interoceptive pathway for heart rate control. Evidence for the staggered development of the vagal-motor, sympathetic, and sensory pathways is conclusive, and as the authors discuss, this phenomenon progressively allows for finer-grained control of the heart rate. This could be achieved through proportional-integral-derivative-like control properties emerging in a diverse set of neurons in the APG and sensory feedback of the state of the heart. In line with these findings, the baseline variability of heart rate prior to innervation at 4 days old appears to be comparatively lower than the later stages (Figure 1C, D, Supplementary Figure 1C-F) and increases over development.

Based on this observation and the time courses of the kernels identified by the GLMs, I would expect heart rate fluctuations of a finer time scale, ultimately limited by the time course of GCaMP6s, to be captured by the models in Figures 3, 5, and 7, in addition to the stimulus-locked changes that are highlighted. While the models yield valuable insight in the form of the activation kernels and their potential roles, in one instance, this captures the potential contribution of either the motor vagus or the APG to the change in heart rate. This makes it challenging to identify where it falls short and the potential functions of pathways that are yet to be discovered.

Lastly, the proposed anatomical connectivity of the heart-brain circuit is based on tracts observed in this study as well as those inferred from function and from previous studies.

(1) It is not clear from the images presented here whether the VSNs send feedback projections to the brainstem VPN.

(2) Do the brainstem neurons identified by their functional roles send efferent projections via the motor vagus nerve? This is unclear from the results presented and needs to be clarified in the text.

(3) Add appropriate clarifying annotations to Figure 9 and a section of text discussing the potential unknowns in the proposed circuit diagram.

Author response:

We thank the reviewers for their thoughtful, constructive, and generous evaluations of our manuscript. We are encouraged by their overall assessment of the clarity, novelty, and significance of the work, and we appreciate the opportunity to further strengthen the manuscript.

Both reviewers highlight the central contribution of this study: a developmental, circuitlevel dissection of how heart–brain signaling emerges in a vertebrate. We are pleased that the evidence supporting the staggered assembly of vagal motor, sympathetic, and sensory pathways was found to be compelling, and that the computational and experimental framework was viewed as appropriate and informative.

Below, we briefly outline how we plan to address the main points raised in the reviews.

Heart rate variability and temporal structure

Both reviewers note that heart rate variability (HRV) changes across development and suggest that HRV may provide additional insight into the function of autonomic circuits. We agree that HRV is an important physiological readout and that its developmental changes are consistent with the progressive emergence of autonomic control.

In the revised manuscript, we plan to (i) discuss heart rate variability more explicitly in the context of circuit maturation and (ii) clarify the temporal scales captured by our experiments and modeling framework. In particular, we will emphasize that our analyses focus on relationships between neural activity and heart-rate trajectories at timescales accessible given imaging rate and indicator kinetics, rather than beat-to-beat variability. We will also consider adding a supplementary analysis of the variability that can be reliably measured within these constraints, and, where appropriate, how neural activity predicts that measurable variation.

Scope and interpretation of the computational models

Reviewer #2 raises thoughtful points regarding what the generalized linear models can and cannot disambiguate, particularly when multiple efferent pathways may contribute to heart-rate dynamics. We will revise the text to more clearly distinguish between functional encoding relationships inferred from the models and anatomical connectivity that is directly demonstrated.

Our intent is to frame the kernels identified in the motor and sympathetic pathways as computational motifs that capture distinct dynamical contributions, rather than as exclusive or complete explanations of heart-rate control. We will clarify these limitations explicitly in the Results and Discussion.

Circuit diagram and anatomical interpretation

We appreciate the reviewer’s careful reading of the proposed circuit schematic. In the revised manuscript, we will revise the figure and accompanying text to clearly annotate which connections are directly observed, which are functionally inferred, and which remain hypothetical. We will also expand the Discussion to explicitly address open questions, including unresolved feedback pathways and the potential for additional nodes in the circuit.

We believe these revisions will improve clarity without altering the core conclusions of the study. We thank the reviewers again for their insightful feedback and look forward to submitting a revised version of the manuscript that addresses these points in detail.

Even though Justinian was able to regain much of the old Roman Empire, his success was short-lived because this deterioration of population had also made the Mediterranean area vulnerable to attacks from rival European regions that had not been hit by the plague.

eLife Assessment

This paper presents an important advance in genetically encoded voltage imaging of the developing zebrafish spinal cord in vivo, capturing voltage dynamics in neuronal populations, single cells, and subcellular compartments inaccessible to patch clamp, and diverse spike waveforms and subthreshold voltage dynamics inaccessible to calcium imaging. The work identifies a developmental progression from irregular voltage fluctuations to coordinated contralateral and ipsilateral activity, providing insight into how electrical dynamics and cellular morphology evolve during circuit formation. The strength of evidence is solid, with imaging data supporting the main conclusions, although the manuscript would be strengthened by more complete methodological documentation and clearer context relative to earlier calcium imaging studies. Overall, this study provides a resource that is of importance for researchers investigating neural development and circuit assembly, illustrating the value of voltage imaging as a general tool for probing bioelectric mechanisms in morphogenesis and circuit development.

Reviewer #1 (Public review):

Summary:

This paper demonstrates the first application of voltage imaging using a genetically encoded voltage indicator, ArcLight, for recording the spontaneous activity of the developing spinal cord in zebrafish. This technology enabled better temporal resolution compared to what has been demonstrated with calcium imaging in past studies (Muto et al., 2011; Warp et al., 2012; Wan et al., 2019 ), which led to the discovery of the maturation process of "firing" shapes in spinal neurons. This maturation process occurs simultaneously with axonal elongation and network integration. Thus, voltage imaging revealed new biological details of the development of the spinal circuits.

Strengths:

The use of voltage imaging instead of calcium imaging revealed biological details of the functional maturation of spinal cord neurons in developing zebrafish.

Weaknesses:

This manuscript lacks many basic components and explanations necessary for understanding the methodologies used in this study.

Reviewer #2 (Public review):

The authors present highly impressive in vivo voltage‐imaging data, demonstrating neuronal activity at subcellular, cellular, and population levels in a developing organism. The approach provides excellent spatial and temporal resolution, with sufficient signal-to-noise to detect hyperpolarizations and subthreshold events. The visualization of contralateral synchrony and its developmental loss over time is particularly compelling. The observation that ipsilateral synchrony persists despite contralateral desynchronization is a striking demonstration of the power of GEVIs in vivo. While I outline several points that should be addressed, I consider this among the strongest demonstrations of in vivo GEVI imaging to date.

Major points:

(1) Clarification of GEVI performance characteristics

There is a widespread misconception in the GEVI field that response speed is the dominant or primary determinant of sensor performance. Although fast kinetics are certainly desirable, they are not the only (or even necessarily the limiting) factor for effective imaging. Kinetic speed specifies the time to reach ~63% of the maximal ΔF/F for a given voltage step (typically 100 mV, approximating the amplitude of a neuronal action potential), but in practical imaging, a slower sensor with a large ΔF/F can outperform a faster sensor with a small ΔF/F. In this context, the authors' use of ArcLight is actually instructive. ArcLight is one of the slower GEVIs in common use, yet Figures S1a-b clearly show that it still reports voltage transients in vivo very well. I therefore strongly recommend moving these panels into the main text to emphasize that robust in vivo imaging can be achieved even with a relatively slow GEVI, provided the signal amplitude and SNR are adequate. This will help counteract the common misunderstanding in the field.

(2) ArcLight's voltage-response range

ArcLight is shifted toward more negative potentials (V₁/₂ ≈ −30 mV). This improves subthreshold detection but makes distinguishing action potentials from subthreshold transients more challenging. The comparison with GCaMP is helpful because the Ca²⁺ signal largely reflects action potentials. Panels S1c-f show similar onset kinetics but a longer decay for GCaMP. Surprisingly, the ΔF/F amplitudes are comparable; typically, GCaMP changes are larger. To support lines 193-194, the authors should include a table summarizing the onset/offset kinetics and ΔF/F ranges for neurons expressing ArcLight versus GCaMP.

Additionally, the expected action-potential amplitude in zebrafish neurons should be stated. In Figure S1b, a 40 mV change appears to produce ~0.5% ΔF/F, but this should be quantified and noted. Could this comparison to GCaMP help resolve action potentials from subthreshold bursts?

(3) Axonal versus somatic amplitudes (Line 203)

The manuscript states that voltage amplitudes are "slightly smaller" in axons than in somata; this requires quantitative values and statistical testing. More importantly, differences in optical amplitude reflect factors such as expression levels, background fluorescence, and optical geometry, not necessarily true differences in voltage amplitude. The axonal signals are clearly present, but their relative magnitude should not be interpreted without correction.

(4) Figure 4C: need for an off-ROI control

Figure 4C should include a control ROI located away from ROI3 to demonstrate that the axonal signal is not due to background fluctuations, similar to the control shown in Figure S3. Although the ΔF image suggests localization, showing the trace explicitly would strengthen the point. The fluorescence-change image in Figure 4c should also be fully explained in the legend.

(5) Figure 5: hyperpolarization signals

Figure 5 is particularly impressive. It appears that Cell 2 at 18.5 hpf and Cell 1 at 18 hpf exhibit hyperpolarizing events. The authors should confirm that these are true hyperpolarizations by giving some indication of how often they were observed.

(6) SNR comparison (Lines 300-302)

The claim that ArcLight and GCaMP exhibit comparable SNR requires statistical support across multiple cells.

Reviewer #3 (Public review):

Summary:

The authors aimed to establish a long-term voltage imaging platform to investigate how coordinated neuronal activity emerges during spinal cord development in zebrafish embryos. Using the genetically encoded voltage indicator ArcLight, they tracked membrane potential dynamics in motor neurons at population, single-cell, and subcellular levels from 18 to 23 hours post-fertilization (hpf), revealing relationships between firing maturation, waveform characteristics, and axonal outgrowth.

Strengths:

(1) Technical advancement in developmental voltage imaging:

This study demonstrates voltage imaging of motor neurons in the developing vertebrate spinal cord. The approach successfully captures voltage dynamics at multiple spatial scales-neuronal population, single-cell, and subcellular compartments.

(2) Insights into the relationship between morphological and functional maturation:

The work reveals important relationships between voltage dynamics maturation and morphological changes.

(3) Kinetics analysis of membrane potential waveform enabled by voltage imaging:

The characterization of "immature" versus "mature" firing based on quantitative waveform parameters provides insights into functional maturation that are inaccessible by calcium imaging. This analysis reveals a maturation process in the biophysical properties of developing neurons.

(4) Matching of voltage indicator kinetics to biological signal:

The authors' choice of ArcLight, despite its slow kinetics compared to newer GEVIs, proved well-suited to the low-frequency activity patterns in developing spinal neurons (frequency ~0.3 Hz).

Weaknesses:

(1) Insufficient comparison with prior calcium imaging studies:

While the authors state that voltage imaging provides superior temporal resolution compared to calcium imaging (lines 192-196, 301), and this is generally true, the current manuscript does not adequately cite or discuss previous calcium imaging studies. Since neural activity occurs at low frequency in the developing spinal cord, calcium imaging is adequate for characterizing the emergence of coordinated activity patterns in the developing zebrafish spinal cord. Notably, Wan et al. (2019, Cell) performed a comprehensive single-cell reconstruction of emerging population activity in the entire developing zebrafish spinal cord using calcium imaging. This work should be properly acknowledged and compared. The specific advantages of voltage imaging over these prior studies need to be more clearly articulated, e.g. detection of subthreshold events and membrane potential waveform kinetics.

(2) Considerations for generalizability of the ArcLight-based voltage imaging approach:

While this study successfully demonstrates voltage imaging using ArcLight in the developing spinal cord, the generalizability of this approach to later developmental stages and other neural systems warrants discussion. ArcLight exhibits relatively slow kinetics (rise time ~100-200 ms, decay τ ~200-300 ms). In the current study, these kinetics are well-suited to the developmental activity patterns observed (firing frequency ~0.3 Hz), representing appropriate matching of indicator properties to biological timescales. However, the same approach may be less suitable for later developmental stages when neural activity occurs at higher frequencies.

(3) Incomplete methodological descriptions:

As a paper establishing a new imaging approach, several critical details are missing or unclear.

(a) Imaging system specifications: The imaging setup description lacks essential information, including light source specifications, excitation wavelength/filter sets, and light power at the sample. The authors should also clarify whether wide-field optics was used rather than confocal or selective plane imaging.

(b) Long-term imaging protocol: Whether neurons were imaged continuously or with breaks between imaging sessions is not explicitly stated. The current phrasing could be interpreted as a continuous 4.5-hour recording, which would be technically impressive but may not be what was actually done.

(c) Image processing procedures: Denoising and bleach correction procedures are mentioned but not described, which is critical for a methods-focused paper.

(d) The waveform classification (Supplementary Figure S6) shows overlapping kinetics between "immature" and "mature" firing, yet the classification method is not adequately justified.

(e) Given that photostability and toxicity are critical considerations for long-term voltage imaging, these aspects warrant further clarification. While the figures suggest stable ArcLight fluorescence during the experiments, the manuscript lacks quantification of photobleaching, a discussion of potential toxicity concerns associated with the indicator, and information regarding the maximum duration over which the ArcLight signal can faithfully report physiological voltage dynamics.

(4) Incomplete data representation and quantification:

(a) The claim of "reduced variability" in calcium imaging (line 194) is not clearly demonstrated in Supplementary Figure S1.

(b) Amplitude distributions for cell/subcellular compartments are not systematically quantified. Figure S3 shows ~5% changes in some axons versus ~2% in others, but it remains unclear whether these variabilities reflect differences between axonal compartments within the same cell, between individual cells, or between individual fish.

The Vikings sailed west to the North Atlantic, and in 874, they, under the leadership of Ingólfur Arnarson, settled in Iceland, where Reykjavik was established. There were stories about Iceland, even dating back to 330 BCE.

That during medieval Europe, traders were using rudimentary forms of what we know today as 'checks' (Sakk) and 'letters of credit' (Suftaga). In addition, traders also used family-run businesses or ‘Hawala’ systems in order to transfer funds.

eLife Assessment

This study presents a valuable and practical approach for one-photon imaging through GRIN lenses. By scanning a low numerical aperture (NA) beam and collecting fluorescence with a high NA, the method expands the usable field of view and yields clearer cellular signals. The evidence is solid overall, with strong qualitative demonstrations, but some claims would benefit from additional quantitative tests. The work will interest researchers who need simple, scalable tools for large‑area cellular imaging in the brain.

Reviewer #1 (Public review):

Summary:

The manuscript reported a method for deep brain imaging with a GRIN lens that combines "low-NA telecentric scanning (LNTS) of laser excitation with high-NA fluorescence collection" to achieve a larger FOV than conventional approaches.

Strengths:

The manuscript presented in vivo structural images and calcium activity results in side-by-side comparison to wide-field epi fluorescence imaging through a GRIN lens and two-photon scanning imaging.

Weaknesses:

(1) Lack of sufficient technique information on the "high-NA (1.0) fluorescence collection". Is it custom-made or an off-the-shelf component? The only optical schematic, Figure 1, shows two lenses and a Si-PMT as the collection apparatus. There is no information about the lenses and the spacing between each component.

(2) There is no discussion about the speed limitation of the LNTS method, which, as a scanning-based method, is limited by the scanner speed. At a 10 Hz frame rate, the LNTS, although it has a better FOV, is much slower than widefield fluorescence imaging. The 10 Hz speed is not sufficient for some fast calcium activities.

(3) Supplementary Figure 5 is irrelevant to the main claim of the manuscript. This is a preliminary simulation related to the authors' proposed future work.

Reviewer #2 (Public review):

Summary:

This study introduces a simple optical strategy for one-photon imaging through GRIN lenses that prioritizes coverage while maintaining practical signal quality. By using low-NA telecentric scanned excitation together with high-NA collection, the approach aims to convert nearly the full lens facet into a usable field of view (FOV) with uniform contrast and visible somata. The method is demonstrated in 4-µm fluorescent bead samples and mouse brain, with qualitative comparisons to widefield and two-photon (2P) imaging. Because the configuration relies on standard components and a minimalist optical layout, it may enable broader access to large-area cellular imaging in the deep brain across neuroscience laboratories.

Strengths:

(1) This method mitigates off-axis aberrations and enlarges the usable FOV. It achieves near full-facet usable FOV with consistent centre-to-edge contrast, as evidenced by 4-µm fluorescent bead samples (uniform visibility to the edge) and in vivo microglia imaging (resolvable somata across the field).

(2) The optical design is simple and supports efficient photon collection, lowering the barrier to adoption relative to adaptive optics (AO) or lens design-based correction. Using standard components and treating the GRIN lens as a high-NA (~1.0) light pipe increases collection efficiency for ballistic and scattered fluorescence. Figure annotations report the illumination energy required to reach a fixed detected-photon target (e.g., ~1000 detected photons per bead/cell for the 500-µm FOV condition), and under this equal-output criterion, the LNTS configuration achieves comparable or better image quality at lower illumination energy than conventional wide-field imaging, supporting improved photon efficiency and implying reduced bleaching and heating for equivalent signal levels.

(3) The in vivo functional recordings are stable and exhibit strong signals. In vivo calcium imaging shows high-SNR ΔF/F₀ traces that remain stable over ~30-minute sessions with only modest baseline drift reported, supporting physiological measurements without heavy denoising and enabling large-scale data collection.

(4) The low-NA excitation provides an extended focal depth, enabling more neurons to be tracked concurrently within a single FOV while maintaining practical signal quality. It reduces sensitivity to axial motion and minor misalignment and enhances overall experimental efficiency.

Weaknesses:

(1) Quantitative characterization is limited. Resolution and contrast are not comprehensively mapped as functions of field position and depth, and a clear, operational definition of "usable FOV" is not specified with threshold criteria.

(2) The claim of approximately 100% usable FOV is largely supported by qualitative images; standardized metrics (e.g., PSF/MTF maps, contrast-to-noise ratio profiles, cell-detection yield versus radius) are needed to calibrate expectations and enable comparison across systems.

(3) The trade-off inherent to low NA excitation, namely a broader axial PSF and possible neuropil/background contamination, is acknowledged qualitatively but not quantified. Analyses that separate in-focus from out-of-focus signal would help readers judge single-cell fidelity across the field.

(4) Generalizability remains to be established. Performance across multiple GRIN models (e.g., diameter, NA), wavelengths, is not yet demonstrated. Longer-session photobleaching, heating, and phototoxicity, particularly near the edge of the FOV, also require fuller evaluation.

Readers should view it as a coverage-first strategy that enlarges the FOV while accepting a modest trade-off in resolution due to the low-NA excitation and the extended axial PSF.

when the English king was killed during a battle, William moved to London, and the nobles welcomed him. He was subsequently crowned King William I of England on Christmas Day.

lewis标注测试

eLife Assessment

This study provides a valuable advance in understanding how decision boundaries may change over time during simple choices by introducing a method that uses information about non-decision components to improve parameter estimates. The evidence supporting the main claims is convincing, with clear demonstrations on simulated and real data, although additional model comparison work would further strengthen confidence. The findings will be of interest to researchers studying human decision processes and the methods used to analyse them.

Reviewer #1 (Public review):

Summary:

This paper proposes a non-decision time (NDT)-informed approach to estimating time-varying decision thresholds in diffusion models of decision making. The manuscript motivates the method well, outlines the identifiability issues it is intended to address, and evaluates it using simulations and two empirical datasets. The aim is clear, the scope is deliberately focused, and the manuscript is well written. The core idea is interesting, technically grounded, and a meaningful contribution to ongoing work on collapsing thresholds.

Strengths:

The manuscript is logically structured and easy to follow. The emphasis on parameter recovery is appropriate and appreciated. The finding that the exponential NDT-informed function produces substantially better recovery than the hyperbolic form is useful, given the importance placed on identifiability earlier in the paper. The threshold visualisations are also helpful for interpreting what the models are doing. Overall, the work offers a well-defined, methodologically oriented contribution that will interest researchers working on time-varying thresholds.

Weaknesses / Areas for Clarification:

A few points would benefit from clarification, additional analysis, or revised presentation:

(1) It would help readers to see a concrete demonstration of the trade-off between NDT and collapsing thresholds, to give a sense of the scale of the identifiability problem motivating the work.

(2) Before moving to the empirical datasets, the manuscript really needs a simulation-based model-recovery comparison, since all major conclusions of the empirical applications rely on model comparison. One approach might be to simulate from (a) an FT model with across-trial drift variability and (b) one of the CT models, then fit both models to each of the simulated data sets. This would address a longstanding issue: sometimes CT models are preferred even when the estimated collapse in the thresholds is close to zero. A recovery study would confirm that model selection behaves sensibly in the new framework.

(3) An additional subtle point is that BIC is defined in terms of the maximised log-likelihood of the model for the data being modelled. In the joint model, the parameter estimates maximise the combined likelihood of behavioural and non-decision-time data. This means the behavioural log-likelihood evaluated at the joint MLEs is not the behavioural MLE. If BIC is being computed for the behavioural data only, this breaks the assumptions underlying BIC. The only valid BIC here would be one defined for the joint model using the joint likelihood.

(4) Table 1 sets up the Study 1 comparisons, but there's no row for the FT model. Similarly, Figures 10 and 13 would be more informative if they included FT predictions. This matters because, in Study 1, the FT model appears to fit aggregate accuracy better than the BIC-preferred collapsing model, currently shown only in Appendix 5. Some discussion of why would strengthen the argument.

(5) In Figure 7, the degree of decay underestimation is obscured by using a density plot rather than a scatterplot, consistent with the other panels of the same figure. Presenting it the same way would make the mis-recovery more transparent. The accompanying text may also need clarification: when data are generated from an FT model with across-trial drift variability, the NDT-informed model seems to infer FT boundaries essentially. If that's correct, the model must be misfitting the simulated data. This is actually a useful result as it suggests across-trial drift variability in FT models is discriminable from collapsing-threshold models. It would be good to make this explicit.

(6) Given the large recovery advantage of the exponential NDT-informed function over the hyperbolic one, the authors may want to consider whether the results favour adopting the former more generally. Given these findings, I would consider recommending the exponential NDT-informed model for future use.

(7) In Study 2 (Figure 13), all models qualitatively miss an interesting empirical pattern: under speed emphasis, errors are faster than corrects, while under accuracy emphasis, errors become slower. The error RT distribution in the speed condition is especially poorly captured. It would be helpful for the authors to comment, as it suggests that something theoretically relevant is missing from all models tested.

(8) The threshold visualisations extend to 3 seconds, yet both datasets show decisions mostly finishing by ~1.5 seconds. Shortening the x-axis would better reflect the empirical RT distributions and avoid unintentionally overstating the timescale of the empirical decision processes.

Reviewer #2 (Public review):

Summary:

The authors use simulations and empirical data fitting in order to demonstrate that informing a decision model on estimates of single-trial non-decision time can guide the model to more reliable parameter estimates, especially when the model has collapsing bounds.

Strengths:

The paper is well written and motivated, with clear depth of knowledge in the areas of neurophysiology of decision-making, sequential sampling models, and, in particular, the phenomenon of collapsing decision bounds.

Two large-scale simulations are run to test parameter recovery, and two empirical datasets are fit and assessed; the fitting procedures themselves are state-of-the-art, and the study makes use of a very new and well-designed ERP decomposition algorithm that provides single-trial estimates of the duration of diffusion; the results provide inferences about the operation of decision bound collapse - all of this is impressive.

Weaknesses:

This is an interesting and promising idea, but a very important issue is not clear: it is an intuitive principle that information from an external empirical source can enhance the reliability of parameter estimates for a given model, but how can the overall BIC improve, unless it is in fact a different model? Unfortunately, it is not clear whether and how the model structure itself differs between the NDT-informed and non-NDT-informed cases. Ideally, they are the same actual model, but with one getting extra guidance on where to place the tau and/or sigma parameters from external measurements. The absence of sigma (non-decision time variance) estimates for the non-NDT-informed model, however, suggests it is different in structure, not just in its lack of constraints. If they were the same model, whether they do or do not possess non-decision time variability (which is not currently clear), the only possible reason that the NDT-informed model could achieve better BIC is because the non-NDT-informed model gets lost in the fitting procedure and fails to find the global optimum. If they are in fact different models - for example, if the NDT-informed model is endowed with NDT variability, while the non-NDT-informed model is not - then the fit superiority doesn't necessarily say anything about an NDT-informed reliability boost, but rather just that a model with NDT variability fits better than one without.

One reason this is unclear is that Footnote 4 says that this study did not allow trial-to-trial variability in nondecision time, but the entire premise of using variable external single-trial estimates of nondecision times (illustrated in Figure 2) assumes there is nondecision time variability and that we have access to its distribution.

It is good that there is an Intro section to explain how the tradeoff between NDT and collapsing bound parameters renders them difficult to simultaneously identify, but I think it needs more work to make it clear. First of all, it is not impossible to identify both, in the same way as, say, pre- and post-decisional nondecision time components cannot be resolved from behaviour alone - the intro had already talked about how collapsing bounds impact RT distribution shapes in specific ways, and obviously mean (or invariant) NDT can't do that - it can only translate the whole distribution earlier/later on the time axis. This is at odds with the phrasing "one CANNOT estimate these three parameters simultaneously." So it should be first clarified that this tradeoff is not absolute. Second, many readers will wonder if it is simply a matter of characterising the bound collapse time course as beginning at accumulation onset, instead of stimulus offset - does that not sidestep the issue? Third, assuming the above can be explained, and there is a reason to keep the collapse function aligned to stimulus onset, could the tradeoff be illustrated by picking two distinct sets of parameter values for non-decision time, starting threshold, and decay rate, which produce almost identical bound dynamics as a function of RT? It is not going to work for most readers to simply give the formula on line 211 and say "There is a tradeoff." Most readers will need more hand-holding.

A lognormal distribution is used as line 231 says it "must" produce a right-skew. Why? It is unusual for non-decision time distribution to be asymmetric in diffusion modeling, so this "must" statement must be fully explained and justified. Would I be right in saying that if either fixed or symmetrically distributed nondecision times were assumed, as in the majority of diffusion models, then the non-identifiability problem goes away? If the issue is one faced only by a special class of DDMs with lognormal NDT, this should be stated upfront.

In the simulation study methods, is the only difference between NDT-informed and non-informed models that the non-NDT-informed must also estimate tau and sigma, whereas the NDT-informed model "knows" these two parameters and so only has the other three to estimate? And is it the exact same data that the two models are fit to, in each of the simulation runs? Why is sigma missing from the uninformed part of Figure 4? If it is nondecision time variability, shouldn't the model at least be aware of the existence of sigma and try to estimate it, in order for this to be a meaningful comparison?

I am curious to know whether a linear bound collapse suffers from the same identifiability issues with NDT, or was it not considered here because it is so suboptimal next to the hyperbolic/exponential?

The approach using HMP rests on the assumption that accumulation onset is marked by the peak of a certain neural event, but even if it is highly predictive of accumulation onset, depending on what it reflects, it could come systematically earlier or later than the actual accumulation onset. Could the authors comment on what implications this might have for the approach?

Figure 7: for this simulation, it would be helpful to know the degree to which you can get away with not equipping the model to capture drift rate variability, when the degree of that d.r. variability actually produces appreciable slow error rates. The approach here is to sample uniformly from ranges of the parameters, but how many of these produce data that can be reasonably recognised as similar to human behaviour on typical perceptual decision tasks? The authors point out that only 5% of fits estimate an appreciable bound collapse but if there are only 10% of the parameter vectors that produce data in a typical RT range with typical error rates etc, and half of these produce an appreciable downturn in accuracy for slower RT, and all of the latter represent that 5%, then that's quite a different story. An easy fix would be to plot estimated decay as a scatter plot against the rate of decline of accuracy from the median RT to the slowest RT, to visualise the degree to which slow errors can be absorbed by the no-dr-var model without falsely estimating steep bound collapse. In general, I'm not so sure of the value of this section, since, in principle, there is no getting around the fact that if what is in truth a drift-variability source of slow errors is fit with a model that can only capture it with a collapsing bound, it will estimate a collapsing bound, or just fail to capture those slow errors.

Reviewer #3 (Public review):

The current paper addresses an important issue in evidence accumulation models: many modelers implement flat decision boundaries because the collapsing alternatives are hard to reliably estimate. Here, using simulations, the authors demonstrate that parameter recovery can be drastically improved by providing the model with additional data (specifically, an EEG-informed estimate of non-decision time). Moreover, in two empirical datasets, it is shown that those EEG-informed models provide a better fit to the data. The method seems sound and promising and might inform future work on the debate regarding flat vs collapsing choice boundaries. As an evidence-accumulation enthusiast, I am quite excited about this work, although for a broader audience, the immediate applicability of this approach seems limited because it does require EEG data (i.e. limiting widespread use of the method or e.g., answering questions about individual differences that require a very large N).

eLife Assessment

This study provides important evidence that myristate, a fatty acid commonly present in soil environments, is taken up by arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi during symbiosis with a plant host. The evidence presented is solid, with multiple experimental approaches including stable isotope tracing, transcriptional analysis, and physiological measurements across different plant species and phosphorus conditions. However, the main claims are only partially supported.

Reviewer #1 (Public review):

Summary:

Two major breakthroughs in the field of arbuscular mycorrhiza (AM) were the discoveries that first AM fungi obtain lipids (not only carbohydrates) from their plant hosts (Bravo et al 2017; Jiang et al 2017; Keymer et al 2017; Luginbuehl et al 2017) and second that presumably obligate biotrophic AM fungi can produce spores in the absence of host plants when exposed to myristate (Sugiura et al 2020; Tanaka et al 2022).

For this manuscript, Chen et al asked the question of whether myristate in the soil may also play a role in AM symbiosis when AM fungi live in symbiosis with their plant hosts. They show that myristate occurs in natural as well as agricultural soils, probably as a component of root exudates. Further, they treat AM fungi with myristate when grown in symbiosis in a Petri dish system with carrot hairy roots or in pots with alfalfa or rice to describe which effect the exogenous myristate has on symbiosis. Using 13C labelling, they show that myristate is taken up by AM fungi, although they can obtain sugars and lipids from the plant host. They also show that myristate leads to an increase in root colonization as well as expression of fungal genes involved in FA assimilation.

Interestingly, the effect of myristate on colonization depends on the plant species and the level of phosphate fertilization provided to the plant. The reason for this remains unknown.

Strengths:

The findings are interesting and provide an advance in our understanding of lipid use by the extraradical mycelium of AM fungi.

Weaknesses:

However, there are some misconceptions in the writing, and some experimental results remain poorly clear as they are presented in a highly descriptive manner without interpretation or explanation.

Reviewer #2 (Public review):

Summary:

Arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi (AMF) are among the most widely distributed soil microorganisms, forming symbiotic relationships (AM symbiosis) with approximately 70% of terrestrial vascular plants. AMF are considered obligate biotrophs that rely on host-derived symbiotic carbohydrates. However, it remains unclear whether symbiotic AMF can access exogenous non-symbiotic carbon sources. By conducting three interconnected and complementary experiments, Chen et al. investigated the direct uptake of exogenous 13C1-labeled myristate by symbiotic Rhizophagus irregularis, R. intraradices, and R. diaphanous, and assessed their growth responses using AMF-carrot hairy root co-culture systems (Experiments 1 and 2). They also explored the environmental distribution of myristate in plant and soil substrates, and evaluated the impact of exogenous myristate on the symbiotic carbon-phosphorus exchange between R. irregularis and alfalfa or rice in a greenhouse experiment (Experiment 3). Given that the AM symbiosis not only plays a significant role in the biogeochemical cycling of C and P elements but also acts as a key driver of plant community structure and productivity. The topic of this manuscript is relevant. The study is well-designed, and the manuscript is well-written. I find it easy and interesting to follow the entire narrative.

Strengths:

The manuscript provides evidence from 13C labeling and molecular analyses showing that symbiotic AMF can absorb non-symbiotic C sources like myristate in the presence of plant-derived symbiotic carbohydrates, challenging the traditional assumption that AMF exclusively rely on symbiotic carbon sources supplied from associated host plants. This finding advances our understanding of the nutritional interactions between AMF and host plants. Furthermore, the manuscript reveals that myristate is widely present in diverse soil and plant components; however, exogenous myristate disrupts the carbon-phosphorus exchange in arbuscular mycorrhizal symbiosis. These insights have significant implications for the application and regulation of the AM symbiosis in sustainable agriculture and ecological restoration.

Weaknesses:

The limitations of this study include:

(1) The absorption of myristate by symbiotic AMF was observed only after exogenous application under artificial conditions, which may not accurately reflect natural environments.

(2) The investigation into the mechanism by which myristate disrupts C-P exchange in AM symbiosis remains preliminary.

Nevertheless, the authors have adequately discussed these limitations in the manuscript.

Reviewer #3 (Public review):

Summary:

The authors have addressed a major question since the discovery of myristate uptake from AM fungi as a non-symbiotic C source. Myristate has been used to grow some AM fungi axenically, but the biological significance of this saprobic attitude in natural or agronomical environments remained unexplored. The results of this research soundly demonstrate that myristate-derived C is used by AM fungi, leading to improved development of both extraradical and intraradical mycelium (at least under low P conditions). However, this does not lead to obvious advantages for the plant, since symbiotic nutrient exchange (carbon and phosphorus) is reduced upon myristate application. Furthermore, myristate-treated plants quench their defence responses.

Strengths:

The study is extensive, based on a solid experimental setup and methodological approach, combining several state-of-the-art techniques. The conclusions are novel and of high relevance for the scientific community. The writing is fluent and clear.

Weaknesses:

Some of the figures should be improved for clarity. The conclusions do not express a conclusive remark that, in my opinion, emerges clearly from the results: myristate application in agriculture does not seem to be a very promising approach, since it unbalances the symbiosis nutritional equilibrium and may weaken plant immunity. This is a very important point (albeit rather unpleasant for applicative scientists) that should be stressed in the conclusions.

That Muhammad ibn Tumart, a renowned and motivational scholar from southern Morocco, began a new Muslim ruling dynasty in North Africa.

Hôtel et chambres d'hôtes

This is useful in the "Open file" dialog.

Science populism in medicine

Science populists

This quote states that during the long reign of Edward III, the power of the Commons increased. They forced the king to solve their problems before giving him any money, but they could not grant any funds without approval from the Parliament. Gradually, the Commons met on their own and even appointed their own leader, known as the Speaker

for - YouTube - Michael Levin - Forbes interview

• SRG comment - Michael Levin - learning & intelligence - nontraditional

for - learning - even chemical networks can learn! don't need living system! - Michael Levin

for - intelligence - take from behavior / cognitive science - apply to molecular networks & tissues - Michael Levin

for - definition - intelligence - Michael Levin - to be able to use tools to find new ways to solve problems (reach goals)

for - cognition - not just restricted to brains in 3d space.

for - Josh Bongard - collaborator of Micheal Levin

for - anthrobots - made from hman tracheal epithelium cells

for - synthetic life xenobots - made from frog skin

for - human hubris - bubble sort - Michael Levin

The Portuguese were exploring Africa for gold and a route to Asia, they were also bringing in quite a lot of funds through the production and trading of sugar, which was very valuable then.

In 1455, Gutenberg managed to put all his ideas together to print the Bible. The printing quality was so good that people could not differentiate whether it was done manually or by a machine.

This tells us that with many new ideas and new books pouring into Europe, there came a “rebirth” period for knowledge during which many people were able to share in knowledge and not merely senior experts. The learners and teachers studied new ideas simultaneously, and therefore, everyone doubted former knowledge without accepting anything presented by experts long before.

for - youtube - interview - Michael Levin - Where biology goes off the rails

for - youtube - interview - Michael Levin - 20 questions

• SRG comment - Michael Levin interview - this one nice and casual!

for - best advice - Michael Levin - don't worry too much about what others say

for - planaria - don't age - life of same individual is 400 million years old - don't age

for - planaria tail regenerates head - not all information is contained in the brain

for - planaria - chop of head - tail will regenerate head

for - planaria - regenerate

for - planaria - amazing creatures - Michael Levin

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